THE QUAKERS NO Deceivers, Or the Management of an unjust Charge against them Confuted.

BEING A BRIEF RETURN to a Pamphlet, Intituled, The Quakers Proved Deceivers, and such as the People ought not to listen to or follow but to account Accursed, in the Manage­ment of a Charge given out against them to that effect, By John Horne, who calls Himself Preacher of the Gospel at South-Lin in Norfolke, who is a chief Teacher among the People called Mooreans or Universalists.

Who hath given forth a pretended and imperfect Relation of a Dis­course, which was between him and George Whitehead, in the Chancel of South-Lin, wherin he hath falsely made his boast, how that he made good his said Charge against G.W. before some Hundreds of people; but many unprejudiced persons who heard the Discourse between them, can witnesse against the said I.H. as a vain Boaster in his Pride, of a Victory where he had it not.

And herein i [...] the said J. Ho [...]ne proved to be such a one, as he hath falsely charged the Quak [...]rs proved to be, and [...]is false Doctrines, touching several things of much Concernment Discovere [...] and his slanders and perverting the Truth re­proved, and the Truth of God cleared. For the Information of the People cal­led Universalists, and other Professors and People.

See PSAL. 7.14, 15.

By one who is counted a Deceiver, yet true, George Whitehead.

LONDON, Printed for Giles Calvert, at the Black-Spread-Eagle, near the West-end of Pauls 1660.

[...]Lessed are they that are not offended at the truth, [...] [...]bide in the love of it as it is made manifest, [...] who live in the life and power of God, [...] [...]i [...]h fathomes over and comprehends the sub­ [...] S [...]rpent, which greatly appears these our d [...]y [...] [...] the seed of God, and the wisdoms and power of G [...] b [...]ing manifest in a large measure in his Servants, which gives them dominion in the life, and in­nocency to reign over the haters of the truth, and wis­dom to discover all their subtilty and crafts; this is their torment and vexation, and the more they strive against the truth which we are in, the more they are drowned in their confusion, and overwhelmed in their darkness: Therefore let us whom the Lord hath called into his work, go on in the name and power of our God, with boldness and confidence in him in this day of the Lambs battel, for the Lord is with us; and it is in his strength that we are made able to tread over our enemies: and to trample over all their malignity and deceits, which they appear in against the truth of our God which is dear unto us, and after many contests and much opposition which we have passed thorow, and met with from the deceivers of many sorts in this age, who are of the Dra­gons Armie, who like their Leader are wroth with the seed of the Woman which keeps the Commands of God. I have of late time met with one Iohn Horn one of the same Army, who hath shewed his rage and mad­ness as much against the truth, both in his Books and Papers as any that ever I met with, and his torment be­ing begun his rage and malice is the greater; notwith­standing by many he is had in reputation, and set up be­yond the Priests of the Nation, but hath foamed out [Page]his shame more then many of them. The occasion of my last disputing with him (on the 13 day of the 11th moneth, (59) was his posting up many Papers publikely in Lin, wherein he charged the Quakers to be Deceivers, and such as the people ought not to hear or follow, but to account accursed; and said, that he should be ready to make it good, as and when thereto lawfully called: Upon which I several times for the Truth sake sent to him to come forth in publike, before I could get him so out, for he would have had us met at his house, or at a friends house of his, which was not convenient, for such a meeting as was to be; but at length he proffered to meet me in the Chancel in the Steeple house end, where we met, and after I had heard him speak a pretty time a­gainst us, and had some liberty to answer to some of the chief things he objected against us, we had some discourse about several weighty things; as freedom from sin, [...]nd the new-born state, the redemption of the body, and the coming of Christ; and the cheif thing I. H. drove at was to make people beleeve, That there is no man living upon earth that sinneth not, or that could be perfectly freed from sin in this life, and that the Proph [...]s and Apostles had sin in them so long as they l [...]ved, and so he made War for his Fathers Kingdome (which is upheld by sin) as much as he could, as the rest of the deceivers chiefly do, and in the power of the Lord, I speake in Vindication of the truth, to clear it from his false aspersions and slanders, as much as I might have liberty to; for I. H. and some of his Company were very uncivil towards me in many of them, clam [...]uring at once against me, but the Lord appeared with me and his truth, which then reached his witness in the Consciences of many, and ma­ny heard me with soberness, which as appears was a grief [Page]to my adversary, and as is probable was some cause of his publishing an imperfect Relation of the dis­pute in Print, to render me and the truth odious, and in his pride to make people beleeve he had got­ten the victory or maistery, touching which his vain boasting and deceit is hereafter discovered, and the Truth cleared.

And now from sufficient grounds and tryal, I affirm, and can (through the strength of God) make good these things against the said J. Horn, and charge them against him as followeth, &c.

1. That he is out of the life and steps of the true Ministers, and in the steps and practises of Deceivers, and so is a Hypocrite, and no Minister of Christ, who being a Parish-priest is guilty of the Priests iniquity in many things whom he hath declared against.

2. That he upholds a dead and formal Worship like the World, whereunto people are not called by the Spirit of truth for it, is not the true Worship, so that he keeps people from the life of God, his Ministry being both dead, formal and corrupt.

3. That his Ministry (vvherein he contends for sin, pleading that none can be perfectly free from it in this life) is Antichristian and both against the commands, promises, and works of God, and tends to the making both the preaching and praying of Christ and the Saints ineffectual.

4. And that he the said I. H. (like a cholerick envi­ous man against the truth of God and his people) is a forger of lies, a false acc [...] [...], a slanderer, and so is one of the Dragons Army, who was wroth with the woman that brought forth the man childe, and the remnant of [Page]her seed that kept the commands of God. These [...] last charges against him are hereafter proved in [...] Treatise, and the rest with them am I willing to pro [...] and make good to his face in publike, where I may be heard, either in the Market place, Steeple-house, or our meeting place in Lin, or at some other publike place in the Country that way if thereunto I be lawfully called, and have an opportunity that way, that the Lord make way for me to it; and if I. H. will upon that account meet me, through the strength of God, I am free to do it as he makes way for the Truth sake, and their sakes who would knovv it.

The Management of an unjust Charge against the Quakers Confuted.

AFter that the said John Horn the Priest hath laid down these words, viz. People, ‘I am come hither to make good a charge formerly laid by me against the people called Quakers, viz. To prove them to be deceivers, and such as people ought not to hear, or follow, but to account them accursed, and for proof that there are such he brings, Gal. 1.8, 9. And then he saith in these words, viz. I shall pitch upon two heads of trialls. 1. Touching the manner of the coming of the true Prophets and Apostles in the way of their doctrine. And, 2. The matter delivered by them therein, for the manner of their coming I shall note. 1. That true the Apostles and Prophets of God and Christ always, use to come with abasements of themselves in the presence of God, and with exalting and lifting up God and Christ, they use to confess themselves sinners, to be weak and brutish in themselves, as of themselves; never any of them used to vaunte themselves or speak of themselves, or one another, as sinless, but alwaies abase themselves and glorifie the Lord, they there­fore that come otherwise preaching themselves sinless and per­fect: and much more that vilifie and Reproach others for confesing sin, these have not the badges of the true Prophets and Apostles, by this we may discover this people called Qua­kers, (he saith) and afterward hath charged us for not coming as the true Prophets and Apostles, and then he brings seve­rall Scriptures to prove that the Holy men of God use to own themselves to have sin in them (or to confess sin,) as Psal. 19.12. and 38.16. and 143.2. and 1 King. 8.46. Eccles. 7.20. Pro. 30.2, [Page 8]3. Isa. 6.3, 4, 5, 6.7. 1 Joh. 1.9, Isa 65.5. and Chap. 59.10, 11, 12, 13. and Isa. 64.6. and Jer. 14 7, 8 9.20, 21. and Dan. 9.22. and Mat. 3.14. Rom 7.17.20. 1 Tim. 1.15. James 3.9. 1. Job. 2.1, 2.’

To which I Reply, in all which John Horn hath proved no­thing against us called Quakers, nor made it appear that we come not abasing o [...] [...] as the true Prophets and Apostles did, for we own their confessing sin, and have confessed ours to the Lord as they did, and are come to deny our selves and sins, but the Holy men of God were not alwaies confessing their sins, as the Priests are who make many confessions of their sins and never forsake them, but plead for them and so their con­fessions are but feigned, for its such as confess their sins and for­sake them that shall find mercy, Prov. 28.13. And this we wit­ness, and herein is Christ and his Righteousness exalted, and not our selves, and so all your feigned confessions, and your feigned praying to be cleansed from your sins: when still you continue in lin and plead for it, to Remain in all men the tearm of life we deny, knowing that such are out of the life and Spirit of the Prophets and Holy men of God, who suffered the terrors of the Lord for sin, and did confess and forsake their sins knowing the fear of the Lord which is to depart from ini­quity, which fear keeps the heart clean, and such as live in it, shall not depart from the Lord, Ier. 32.40. But out of that state are you all shut, who continue in sin, pride, and deceit, and con­tend for it, who thereby would make all the commands of God, and his promises, and works, and the prayers of the Saints of none effect, the end of all which is Righteousness and perfecti­on, and so Iohn Horn his charging us as being accursed, and not to be heard will Return upon his own head, as one who hath cursed where God hath blessed, and brought an evill Report upon them that fear the Lord, and he hath herein done no less sought to make people hate the judgement of God, and then to he [...]r or follow it, but to account the judgement of God accursed, according to his own words, for he and Thomas Moere have in their discovery, acknowledged us (called Quakers) to be a heavy judgement of God that he or­dered to them to punish them for their neglect of Christ the sal­vation of God, and the truth of him so long abused by them, and where he saith as that never any of the true Apostles and Pro­phets [Page 9]used to speak of themselves, or one another as sinless; this is false, for the true Prophet said, all his judgements were before me, and as for his statutes I did not depart from them. I was also upright before him, and have kept my self from mine iniquity, therefore the Lord hath Recompeused me according to my Righteousness, according to my cleanness in his eye-sight, 2 Sam 22, 23. And the Lord hath promised, that his people shall be all Righteous and clean from all their filthiness, Isa. 60.21. Ezek. 36 25. And these that John saw on mount Sion (to which mount they were come, the Apostles writ to in Heb. 12.22, 23.) who followed the Lamb whithersoever he went, and such Reign­ed as Kings on the earth; they were without fault before the throne of God, Rev. 14.4, 5. Chap. 5.10. And such could sing to the Lord a new song, and exalt God, which they that are in their iniquity and pleading for sin cannot sing nor exalt for they are enemies to the State of the new creature in Christ; where all old things are past away & all become new, and so with the Spirit of life we see thorow the State wherein all are sinners into the State wherein all that come into Christ must be Righte­ous, and so we have a cloud of witnesses and many true evidences for our Testimony that it is of God; and what we hold is truth and all that own God must own us therein, who are counted peceivers (as the Saints were) yet true.

(John Horn in page 3. saith, True, it is he saith in 1 John 4.17. As he is so are we in this world ‘he cannot mean in it we are without sin as he is, because that is contrary to his own saying, that if we say we have no sin we deceive our selves, nor will it Reach to all things, for then we might say as Christ is without a visible personall body in the world, subject to aches and pains, and mortality, so are we too, &c.

I Ans. Here his deceit and perverting the Scripture is seen, and though it cannot be said of I. H. and such as he is that they are without sin as Christ is in this world, yet I ohn who knew that State wherein they had sin and in which if they had said they had no sin they deceived themselves, he said if we confess our sins, he is faithfull and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, 1 Ioh. 1.8, 9. So he did not say they should have sin so long as they were in this world, for he saith little children let no man deceive you he that doth [Page 10]Righteousness is Righteous even as he is Righteous, 1 Ioh. 3, 6, 7. Plainly implying, that they are deceivers who say the con­trary, that men cannot be without sin while they are in this world, and such a deceiver is this Iohn Horn, and it is evident that when Iohn saith as he is so are we in this world, it was in Relation to their dwelling in God and God in them; that they might have have boldness in the day of judgment, 1 Iohn 4.16, 17. And he that abideth in God sinneth not.

I. H. Saith, you see this proved, that the true Apostles and Prophets use to confess sin in themselves and none of them to glory in their perfection and sinlesness, &c.

Answ. If the true Apostles and Prophets use none of them to glory in their perfection, then they use not to glory in Christ, (who is it will believe this deceit,) for Christ was their Righteousness and perfection as he was become all to them who were the Righteousness of God in him, and in him they glorified and Rejoyced. ‘Again Iohn Horn's words are these, viz. And this George White-head have lately reproached us for joyning our selves with the Nation in confessing sin, and that the Quakers are ordered of God as a judgement, to us (name­ly this Nation, whereof we are part) for our neglect of Christ the salvation of God and the abuse of his truth, how do they insult over us for this. G. W. Among the rest hath Reproached us for owning our selves as part of the Nation guilty of sin with them.’

Ans. So this Iohn Horn hath owned himself, and such as own him to be joyned with the Nation as a part of it guilty of sin with them, who are neglecters of Christ and Abusers of the truth, when in their other Book against us, this I. H. and Thomas Moore do much exclaime against both the Teachers and the peo­ple of this Nation, against the Teachers for being such as Isaiah speaks of, Isa. 56.10, 11, 12. As blind watchmen unto whom the preaching of the Cross is a sealed Book, and they call them dumb dogs that cannot bark, and that love to slumber and take their ease, and to content themselves with dreams in stead of searching out the truth, and that they are doggs strong to appetite, hunting after livings and maintenance, &c. These things and much more have Iohn Horn and Thomas Moore charged the Priests of this Nation with, and they charged the people gene­rally [Page 11]with neglecting Christ and his truth and taking no plea­sure therin, but rather in sloathfulnesse, formallity, coveteousness, pride, and vanity in Aparrell, &c. But now marke, for all these mens declaring thus against the Priests, and People of this Nation, they are now joyned with them, and are guilty of sin with them, as J.H. confesseth, who hath joyned himself with the blind watch-men, and the dumb dogs, who content themselves with dreames instead of truth, and so he is guilty of sin, and a false dreamer with them. Oh! what deceit and hippocrisy are these men in, one while to declare so much against the Teachers, and People of this Nation, and another while to joyne with them, as guilty of sin, and abusing the truth with them, so whether they be fit to teach others or not, any wise man may judge. And as for his saying that we reproach or villifie them as for confessing their neglect of Christ, and their abuse of his truth, herein he mistakes us. For we witnesse against them for their hyppocrisie, and deceit, and being such abusers of the truth as they are. And also witnesse against them for their striveing against the heavy judgment of God, and their revileing and abusing that judgment which he hath ordered to punish them for their neglect of Christ, and the truth of him so long abused by them, which heavy judgment they acknowledge us called Quakers to be, and yet they continue revileing and reproaching us, when as they should rather bear the judgment of God patiently, seeing they have sinned so much against God in their long abusing his truth, as they have done, and yet do.

2. And now touching the matter of doctrine I.H. chargeth the Quakers with, as for subverting the faith delivered by the A­postles, and undermineing the hope of the Gospell. He saith they subvert the faith in denying Christ to have that body in Heaven glorified in which he suffered and rose again, &c.’

Reply, As for his lyes, and falsly accuseing us about this (which will fall heavy upon his own head) they are clearly seen by many that know our beleefe in these things, wherin we own what the Scriptures do declare. And how doth this charge of I. H. against the Quakers agree with his, and Tho. Moore's saying in their Book: That we said the same body that suffered was glorified at Gods right Hand in Heaven? when now he saith we deny Christ to have that body in Heaven glorified in which he suffered; Who will beleive this man's confusion? who also saith in one of his Pa­pers against us, that we are men of noe judgment about the [Page 12]Person of Christ. Now I say then if it were so, how should we ei­ther affirme or deny any thing about it? for if we do either, we must be of some judgment about it: And how should we subvert any ones faith about the Person of Christ, if we be of no judgment about it? for if it were so with us, I. H. should rather have infor­med us about the Person of Christ, to have brought us into some true judgment about it (if he could) then have charged us with preaching other Doctrins then the Apostles did, touching such things as he hath falsly charged us to be of no judgment about. Thus his confusion and falshhood is apparent. For though we can­not own his and their imaginations, who have affirmed that Christ is in Heaven with a humane Body of flesh and bones, without blood in it, wherein their blindnesse much appears, and therin they di­stinguish not a spirituall Body from a humane Body, which is na­turall or earthly, yet we owne that the Body of Christ which suf­fered and ascended was changed. And so his Body is a spiritual glo­rified Body in Heaven, in the nature of the same glory which he had with the Father before the world began, wherein he is glorifi­ed, where that which was mortall is swallowed up of life and Im­mortallitie.

I. H. again chargeth us with subverting the hope of the Go­spel, in denying the resurrection of the bodies of men, &c.

Rep. This is another slander for we own the resurrection of the bodies both of the just and unjust according to the Scrip­tures, and see how again this accuser is confounded, He and T. M. in a Paper to me say, That we we are of no judgment about the Resurrection: To which I say, then how should we either deny it, or affirm ought of it? Several other things hath I. H. also falsly accused us within in his fourth page, which I have answer­ed elsewhere: And to my saying that Christ bid, Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, I. H. saith, Exhortations to things prove not those things to be perfectly attained by any here, nor doth the Scripture ever say, Let not sin be in you, as if men might get it all out, though it says, Let it not reign in your mortal bodies. Rep. Then if the things which Christ exhorted men to upon earth may not be perfectly attained by any here, to what end or effect was his Exhortation? What must men be under the commands after death which they had in their life time, and not till then fulfill them? Here's darkness indeed manifest, and the [Page 13]commands of God put afar off, and made of none effect by such as are out of his love, for he that loveth God keepeth his Com­mandments, and is it not all one for the Scripture to say, Be ye perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect, as if it said, Let not sin be in you? Or the same to say, Wash you, make ye clean, or keep Gods Commandments, and love, and serve him with all your heart, soul, strength and minde, which must be fulfilled, then what part of man must be a subject for sin to dwell in, while he lives here, as J. H. would have it? if no part of man be a subject to sin so long as he lives, then it cannot abide in him, as take away the body of it, and its members cannot remain. And to my saying that J. H. had not proved that the Prophets and Apostles had sin in them so long as they lived; he saith, How false that was, appears in what J. H. said on Psal. 143.2. To which I say that Scripture does not prove that the Prophets and Apostles had sin in them so long as they lived, for there its said, Enter not into judg­ment with thy servant, O Lord, for in thy sight shall no man living be justified; and what J. H. said on this, will not prove that the Prophets and Apostles had sin in them while they lived, seeing the Scripture it self doth not prove it, its no matter of his words who perverts the Scriptures, and that Scripture does not include the Saints as to prove them unjustified who were changed from that state, wherein no man living could be justified in the sight of God, and were come thorow the death, and the many trials and tribulations into the life and righteousness of Christ, wher­in they were justified, and the Prophets of the Lord, who desired the Lord to cleanse them from their secret sins, and from all ini­quity in their life time: they prayed not in vain, as this Priests Doctrine in effect accuseth them, in his accusing them to have sin in them so long as they lived, for the Lord giveth the righte­ous the desires of their hearts, Psal. 37.4. Prov. 10.24.

‘Again, J. Horn relates part of our Discourse deceitfully and imperfectly in these words; Viz J. H. Was not Paul born of God when he says, We also that have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we our selves groan within our selves, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of the body; and then these words he lays down for G. W. his Answer, viz. Paul when he travelled, and was groan­ing for deliverance, and waiting for the redemption of the bo­dy, was not as yet born of God, but afterward he witnessed a [Page 14]being redeemed from sin, and then he was born, as a woman when she is in travel to be delivered, the childe is not yet born. J. H. then says, People, I pray, did you ever hear of a woman in travel, before that woman was born, was there ever such a thing? here he says all the people fell a laughing at G. W. and then J. H. urges 1 Joh. 5.1. Whosoever beleeves that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; Paul did beleeve Jesus to be the Christ, when he was an Apostle and writ to the Romans, and then he saith, here George was pittifully put to it, and all the people generally see his confusion, and saith that G. W. was pittifully shackled and nonplust.’

Here John Horne hath both belyed me, and wronged my words, and left out the greatest part of what I said, that cleared my An­swers to the understandings of such as had any sobernesse and se­riousnesse in hearing the discourse. And that People generally see my Confusion, or that I was shackled and non-plust, these are some of I.H. his lyes and scornfull aspersions cast upon me, as many that heard the dispute can witness against him for impudently belying and slandering me, the sum of what I answered and chiefly in­tended (though I could not have liberty to open what I said so much there as here) it was thus, Paul witnessed the groaning and travelling in pain before the birth was born in him, or before he was born of God, or in the state of him that is born of God (intend­ing as in 1. Joh. 3.) who cannot sin, which Paul could when he did the evil he would not, even when he travelled in pain for deliver­ance from the bondage of corruption, for where the son or birth from above is born, the glorious liberty of the sons of God is in­joyed, which the creature waited for, and there the travelling in pain for deliverance is ceased, and the bondage of corruption re­moved, for the travel is before the birth be brought forth; and as for my instancing the womans travelling in pain before the child was born, J.H. hath perverted my comparison, it was not intended to prove that Paul was not born into the world (according to the flesh) wherewith he travelled, as if a woman were not so born when in travail, but in reference to the travail before the birth which was from above was born, and according to what I said, Christ spake when he said to his disciples, Ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoyce, and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy, a woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, [Page 15]because her hour is come, but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembreth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world, Joh. 16.20. and so it was evident that the disciples of Christ knew the travail in the sorrow before the man or birth from above was born in them, and they believed and hoped when they were in travail and pain before they became that birth, for that birth is free, and is not that which travails in pain; for that is in bondage while in pain, before the birth is brought forth to reign, which brings to the healing and to the rest in the glorious liberty; which before that state was witnessed, even the Prophets also knew the travelling in pain, for thus saith the Lord, We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace, aske ye now and see whether a man man doth travail with childe, wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loyns as a woman in travel, and all faces are turned into paleness, Jer. 30.6. And like as a woman with child that draweth near the time of her delivery is in pain and cryeth out in her pangs, so have we been in thy sight O Lord, we have been with childe, we have been in pain, Isa. 26.17. but when the Prophet witnessed that unto them a child was born, and to them a son was given, who was the wond reful Counsellor, he brought the peace, and ended the travail and pain, he being the Prince of peace; but these states I finde J. H. never knew, for to my knowledge he hath judged our speaking of a babe within, but to be a dream, and is in his scorn, and lies there­by making many of the people light and vain against the truth like the false Prophets: And where he saith, that here all the people fell a laughing at G. W. In this he would make all the people ignorant, and scoffers like himself, and herein many of the people who were at our dispute can witness against this J. Horne for wickedly belying them also, for there were many both of our friends and others who were sober minded, and did not joyn with him nor them of his company that scoffed in their laughter and scorn, which did much manifest his shame and theirs who therein joyned with him, seeing he was such a bad example among so many hundreds of people, soberness and seriousness might better have become him in reasoning about the things of God.

Again J. H. saith, I flew to another shift, for that Paul con­descended in his writing to those of low degree: to the state [Page 12]of some he writ to, (as if the believing Romans or Saints at Rome were not borne of God, or did not then believe that Jesus is the Christ) &c.

Reply. As for his urging, that whosoever be lieves that Jesus is the Christ, is borne of God, he hath done it without under­standing, and without distinction, though it be true according to Iohns Testimony of a true beleever, who by faith hath victory over the world. and so being borne of God is not under the bondage of corruption, nor can such a one sin because he is borne of God, and his seed remaineth in him, so he witnesseth that Jesus is the Christ, in saving him from sin; but such, in be­ing born of God I. H. doth not own while men are here; and let me tell him, that a man must believe that Jesus is the Christ, and believe in him too before he be borne of God, as Christ said, Beleeve in the light, that ye may be the children of the light, John 12.36. so as for his urging, that whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ, is born of God, without any true discerning or di­stinction to such a multitude of people, to make them believe that he had shackled me, herein his deceit was clearly seen; for what people is there of any understanding in the whole Chri­stendom, (and even among these Priests in England, whom this Priest Horne hath called greedy dumb dogs, strong to appetite) that do not beleeve that Jesus is the Christ? are they therefore born of God? examine and see. And that Paul condescended to the Romans to severall States which he had passed thorow, and which were below his owne when he writ to them is evident, (for which thing affirming, this scornfull Priest hath so much reproached me) For Paul spake unto them after the manner of men, because of the infirmi­ty of their flesh, Rom. 6.19. and he could not then be in all those states, (as in relation to his own particular condition) which he condescended to the Romans as one in: For he spake to them as one under the Law, and as a wretched man, and as one that did evill, who was led captive to the Law of sin in his members, and asked who should deliver him, like one that did not know who should: though then he knew his deliverer, and deliverance, having bin a Minister many years, Rom. 15.23. And he said, I know that in me, that is in my Flesh dwelleth no good thing, and yet was not Christ then in him, and in his Flesh? and he spake unto them as in the warfare, in the pain, [Page 17]and bondage, and as one who found not how to perform that which was good; which states, as in relation to his own conditi­on he had passed thorough, for he was at peace with God, and freed from under the Law, and dead unto sin, and so free from it, be being a Servant of Christ, and one who was more then a Con­queror, even when he writ to the Romans. See Rom. 5. and chap. 6. and 7. and 8. so that any that understand thesest ates may see that Paul condescended to many states below his own: for when he was free from all men he made himself servant unto all, that he might gain the more; for he saith unto the Jewes, I became as a Jew that I might gain the Jewes, and to them that are under the Law, as under the Law, that I might gain them that are under the Law; and to them that are without Law, (being not with­out Law to God, but under the Law to Christ) that I might gain them that are under the Law; And to the weak became I as weak, &c. 1 Cor. 9.20: And so what I spake, touching Pauls travel and condescending was true, and upon good grounds, though J.H. and some of his company were so uncivil towards me in their bawling or wrangling, many of them at once against me, and ob­truding many Questions together upon me, at the dispute (seve­ral times) before I had explained my self to one, and they would have tied me to Answer them Yea or Nay, when often the things questioned did of necessity admit of a larger Answer then Yea or Nay, shewing themselves both to want moderation and true un­derstanding; and they would not suffer me several times to ex­plain what I laid down as I would, for their bawling and heap of Questions, though J.H. durst answer to very few Questions that I put to him; and as for his accusing me, as that I would faine have bin reading in their Book, to have diverted from his Que­stion, (or turned off from the discourse in hand) In that I would not have long bin off the discourse, for I would only have shew­ed them one or two of their Apparent Lies, and then have dispu­ted further with him, but like guilty persons neither he nor T. M. would let me then reade one clause of their own Book, though I. H. soon after fell a reading in one of ours, and falsely interpreted our words, as is hereafter discovered, and when they were so afraid, to suffer me to reade one particular in their book, many there took notice of their deceit, though I was content to dispute on with him, when they would not suffer me to reade it, [Page 17]for I feel the Power of the Lord over them.

I. H. saith, Then it seems Paul wrote a Lie as touching himself, that he waited for the Redemption of the body, and travelled in pain, when it was false of him, he did not so. I Answer, nay, do any charge Paul with falshood but J. H. Paul writ true, for as he could condescend to the low estate of others, he could weep with them that weep, and wait and travel with them that waited for the Redemption of the body where it was not redeemed; and as he travelled for the Galatians, that Christ might be formed in them, when he knew Christ already formed in him, Gal. 4.19. J. H. saith, Did Paul then witnesse or experiment the Redemption of his body from corruption before he died? and then he asks, Is not the body sown in corruption when it dies? It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. And again he asks, but is not that cor­ruption which is in death, in which the body corrupteth? and did not Paul wait for the Redemption of his body from that, and so he tells of the corruption of mortality.

Answ. Here again is a piece of this J. Horns deceit, in leaving out the word bondage, which I used in speaking of the creatures Redemption from the bondage of corruption, and that Paul witnessed the Redemption of the body from the bondage of cor­ruption, when the creature was delivered into the glorious liber­ty of the sons of God, and this the Saints had before their de­cease: and here J. H. so much urging, as that Paul waited for the Redemption of the body from the corruption in which it is sowen in death, the corruption of mortality, in which the body corrupteth. This manifests, that he cannot discern between the bondage of corruption upon earth, and the natural corruption of a dead body in the grave, as if that corruption of the dead bo­dies in the grave were the bondage of corruption which caused the whole Creation to groan, and which Paul waited for the Re­demption of the body from, when he lived upon earth, was ever such confusion and folly uttered by a Teacher as is by this J. H. herein? for did Paul wait for his body to be redeemed from the corruption of mortality, in which it was sown in the Grave be­fore it was in it? and needed he wait and travel for such a Redem­tion in his life-time? it is absurd that J. H about this hath af­firmed, which people may see, that he, and such as own his principles, do count the bondage of corruption (which Paul waited [Page 18]for the redemption of the body from) the corruption in which the body corrupteth in the grave, and so would make men be­leeve that Paul waited for the redemption of the body from that corruption of the body in death before it was in it, and that his body is not redeemed from the bondage of corruption till it be raised again out of the grave, so that from this then Paul is not yet come to the redemption of his body which so many hundred years he groaned and waited for, seeing that resurrection of the bodies is not yet come, so you may here see that this Priest Horn hath not spoken the language and doctrine delivered by the A­postles, and therefore is not to be listened to, nor followed, but to be accounted accursed, according to his own sentence, it must be measured to him again, for Paul groaned, not for that he would have been uncloathed, but cloathed upon, 2 Cor. 5.4. and the redemption of the body was the adoption which the Saints waited for through the Spirit of adoption, and which they received, seeing for that end God sent forth his Son made of a woman made under the Law, to redeem them that were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons, Gal. 4 4, 5, 6.

J. H. saith, ‘Well George, hitherto I have made good my charge, That you come not as the true Prophets and Apostles, thou hast not been able to prove that any of them preached themselves free from sin, so as to be without sin.’ I reply here, I. H. hath again added to his former lies and folly; for how is his charge like to be made good by my not proving that the true Prophets and Apostles preached themselves free from sin, so as to be with­out it (if I had not done it, but herein hath he spoken deceit­fully) but his charge should rather have been made good if he had proved that all the Prophets and Apostles had sin in them, and were sinners so long as they lived (according to his words) and then that we preach our selves free from sin, and not to have confessed our sins as the Apostles and Pro­phets did (which is according to his words or charge against us) which things he could never prove against us, for he knows not the confessions we have made of our sins; and we preach not our selves perfect, as if our preaching made us perfect, or as if we were so of our selves, but we preach the work of Christ, which doth truly free from sin and make perfect, [Page 17] [...] [Page 18] [...] [Page 17] [...] [Page 18] [...] [Page 17] [...] [Page 18] [...] [Page 17] [...] [Page 18] [...] [Page 20]and he it is that is made to us Righteousnesse and Perfection, who hath loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, un­to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever, Rev. 1.5. And so I.H. his saying, that a man may be perfect in a Scripture-sense, and yet have sin. Asa's heart was perfect with the Lord all his dayes, and yet he sinned. To which I say, It is not said that A­sa's heart was perfect all his life-time, for if it were, it might as well be said he was perfect when he was in the natural state, and when his heart was turned from the Lord, that he relied not on him, but on the King of Syria, for which the Prophet reproved him for dealing so foolishly: insomuch that Asa was in rage with him, and put him into prison, and oppressed or crushed some of the people at that time, and when he was diseased in his feet, he sought not to the Lord, but to the Physicians; so could his heart be perfect with the Lord, when it was so far gone from the Lord? If any shall answer Yea, then I say, may it not as well be said now of them who are oppressors and persecutors of the servants of the Lord, and whose hearts are departed from the Lord? that their hearts are yet perfect with the Lord? So it being said that Asa's heart was perfect with the Lord all his dayes, 2 Chron. 15.17. was intended while he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord, while the Land was kept quiet under his Reign: but after he departed from the Lord he had wars, for as Azariah said unto them, the Lord is with you while you be with him, and if ye seek him, he will be found of you, but if ye forsake him, he will for sake you, 2 Chron. 15.2. and said Hanani the Seer unto Asa, The eyes of the Lord run to and fro thorowout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in behalf of them whose heart is perfect towards him: herein hast thou dealt foolishly, therefore from hence­forth thou shalt have wars; which manifests, that then his heart was not perfect towards the Lord, 2 Chron. 16.7. to the end.

Oh! I see this J. H would willingly have men accounted per­fect with the Lord, when they are sinners; and if such a perfecti­on were, he would own it. But this will not serve his turne a­gainst us, for we own another kinde of perfection then he would have, not a perfection in the sinful state, or where men are de­parted from the Lord into the persecuting nature, but such a per­fection as is enjoyed thorow the sanctification of the Spi­rit, [Page 21]where they that feare the Lord shall not depart from him.

‘And whereas I. H. tells a story of one Giles Rose (who came when we were in discourse) whom he saith is a poor deluded man that was one of the first that turned Quakers in Lin, and that it hath been said he objected sometimes against them some dis­honest carriages between some of their speakers, and a woman of them, &c. The people hearing him ( [...]he said Giles) being at a distance like a kinde of a distracted man, I. H. saith, and Thomas Moore said to me, see the fruit of thy Ministry George, thy prin­ciples are ready to lead men into distraction, and he saith the people laught, &c. To which I say you may here see the malice and wickedness of the men in laying down (as they eount them) his words as an evidence against us; whom they count but as a di­stracted man to render us odious to the world and to make them laugh at us: which so often I. H. hath boasted in, and yet he hath some of this relation touching what the said Giles should say but by report of him, and not all from his own mouth as ap­pears, which sheweth himself like one of the Prophets enemies who said Report and we will Report, Ier. 20.10. and the things he hath given forth against us, as in that distracted mans name (as they count him) are lies and slanders, and will be the burthen of the inventers and spreaders of them; and as for that man, vvhom this Horne brings as a Witnesse against us, he vvas for some time convinced of the truth, but running from his measure into his vain imaginations, friends disovvned him, and then he tur­ued into envy sgainst us, and so it is no matter vvhat he, and such as beleeve him say against us, the truth in vvhich vve live (and our principles, vvhich are not any ground of distraction, as J.H. and T.M. accuse them) shall stand for ever over all our enemies vvho hate the truth, and over all vvho turn into Judas vvay to perdition But J.H. vvho thus hast shevved thy venome in spreading lies and slanders against us; doest thou think, if I vvould go about it, that I could not lay open much vvickednesse and ranting carriages, that have bin among you and several of thy company, and tell you of your Loves, and of a vvoman and her levvdnesse, that vvas highly set up as a Preacher or Instructer among you, and several others? But I had rather be a sufferer by you, then shame you, if you do not give me the more occasion by your malice and slanders a­gainst the Truth to lay you further open. ‘And now to Horns other part of his charge in his Argument where he saith thus, viz. [Page 22]They that undermine and destroy the hope of the Gospell preached by the Apostles they are preachers of another Gos­pell or doctrine then the Apostles, preached, and are to be accounted accursed and not received or followed. This I charge you Quakers with, and you G. W. by name in that you say, the coming of Christ at which the dead in Christ are to be Raised is already past and over, &c. I Answer, Here J. H. Thou hast charged us exceeding falsely, and belyed us shamefully? for we never said that the coming of Christ, at which the dead in Christ are to be raised is already past and over, but that the saints remained unto the coming of the Lord, as the Apostle saith, we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord accord­ing to our words which thou hast falsely and slanderously ground­ed thy charge upon, which are against thee and Thomas Moore, where we said, as for that, 1 Thes. 4.15. Concerning the coming of the Lord from heaven, which these men aforesaid would blindly put afar off as to a coming of Christ with flesh and bones, the Apostle saith we, which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep; so that coming of Christ, the saints who then were alive remained unto it. To which John Horn saith, judge good people is Christ yet come, are ‘the dead bodies of the saints raised and the living changed, and all caught up together in the air to meet him? If these men be not such as we are to avoid and account accursed who be?’ To which I say thus hast thou wrested our words, and made a false construction of them, contrary to the end and intent of them; for what we said was against your imaginations who look carnally for the coming of Christ as many of the world do, of whom Christ said, I go away and the world seeth me no more, Iohn 14. And I vindicated these said words of ours mentioned, and witnessed to the severall comings of Christ as he was revealed in the saints from glory to glory; because thou opposed these words to render us odious, and I never denied the coming of the Lord from Hea­ven when he shall bring with him them that sleep in Jesus; and raise the dead in Christ, nor ever said I that was already over and past as thou hast belied me, for when I urged the Apostles re­maining till the coming of the Lord as in, 1 Thes. 4.15.17. Thou to render me odious urged, ver. 13.14.16. Which I never denied nor doubted of her, and so I slighted disputing about it, though thou would have made it disputable against me to make good thy [Page 21]charge and slander against me, and what confusion would thou charge upon us, as to say the coming of Ghrist, at which the dead in him are to be raised is already past and over, as if that which is yet to be vvere over and past, vvith this non-sense thou might as vvell have charged the Saints as us: who remained unto the coming of the Lord, and yet did not prevent them vvhich were asleep from being raised, though I did mention that of Joh. 5.25. touching the dead hearing the voice of the Son of God, that these that vvere dead or asleep in their sins might come to be raised out of them, and live; this I knevv vvas the most needful for many people that heard us, to knovv, they having such as thou art for their Teach­ers, vvhose Ministry doth greatly tend to keepe them in their sins, when somuch they strive for sin, in contending and pleading for it, as thou hast done. And in thy eleventh page thou hast laid down many words in my name which I never spake, thy wickedly wronging me will come heavy upon thee one day. And oh! how lame and doubtfull is thy Relation a­gainst me? who when thou hast oftentimes laid down answers for mine, thou sayest, or to such purpose was his answers, and so hast but often guessed about my answers, and often belyed me, and perverted the words of truth, and broken my answers often, putting but peeces of them down, as any impartiall reader of thy relation who heard our dispute may easily see. And after thou hast for a pretence laid down part of my Answers, thou a­gaine sayest, to such purpose was his answer, but with more circumstances, and tells of my running into a long circuling dis­course, and so hast left out many things I said, which tendered much to the clearing of my answers, to the understandings of "the simple. And where I said that of God in the people must be Judge, Iohn Horne saith, he appeals to that of God in them all. See what a dissembling imitation he is in here how can he appeal to that of God in all the People, when he denyes that all have the light of Christ in them? which is that of God in all which we speak of, and appeal to in all, and to my knovvledge this Priest hath often contended against our saying the light of Christ, or a spiritual light is in all men, vvhich is that in every one vvhich the true Minister must appeal to, and be a good savour to both, in them that are saved, and in them that perish, which the blind guides of this Age do so much contend against. And where I laid upon this Priest Horn, his writing so much against the Priests of this Nation, and his calling them such as Esay speaks of, Isaiah 56. [Page 24]Watchmen that are blinde greedly dogges, and dumbe dogs, &c. when he himselfe is in the same stepps they are in. To this he re­plies thus to me, viz. Nay George, thou doest not findt hee to the us dumb dogs, we are made able, blessed be God, to worry thee, and put worst, &o. and at the dispute he told me he was able to worry me, and such Foxes as I am, so you may see the falshood and vanity of this man and his Reason: which is no better then to say, a dog that is a worrier is not a dumb dog, because he can worry, when as the dumb dogs use to be the greatest worriers, as the blind Watchmen in Israel, were compared to such, when they fed them­selves, and sought for their gaine from their Quarters, but de­stroyed and scattered the Flock. So here J. H. hath not cleared himself from being one of the Watchmen whom he hath called dumb dogs, seeing that according to his own confession he is a worrier, and so not as Christ's Ministers were, who were Lambs among Wolves. Again J. H. answers me thus, viz. The Lamb is a Lyon to George, and makes Israel a Lyon too. Ge [...]. 49.9. Mica. 5.8. And it is in his strength and power, that we are inabled to tear and worry thee, &c. To which I say, here again hath he falsly boasted in his folly and falshood, and of that power which he was mani­fest to be out of both in the dispute, and when he sought to break up the meeting, and fled out of it, before I would have had him, and left severall Questions unanswered which I put to him. And it's said at the end of this his relation in the next page, that the Church-Warden M. H with other Friends, seing J. H. much spent with speaking so long, and somuch, and fearing be might wrong himself therin, and that he being tyred, and much spent, withdrew, &c. When a little before he boasted of his being in the strength and power of the Lion, and as a Lion that could tear and worry me, counting me a Fox, and now he is tyred and much spent, and he fain to flee for it, was ever the like confusion and ignorance heard of? Did you ever hear of a Fox that out-stood a Lion so far in battle, as to cause the Lion to be so tired and much spent, that the Lion was first fain to flee for it, and so many of John Horns Friends who count themselves in the strength and power of the Lion were afraid he might wrong himself he being so much spent and tyred. You may see here that his boasting of his God, and of his being in the Lions power is come to nought, and that he is a meer Hypocrite and dissembler to boast of being in that which he is out of, and if we be Foxes, and he a tearer and a worrier according to his own words: how is it he cannot feare us, or affright us away?

And to that where it is said, J. Horne and others of his friends, laughing at the Quakers, and G. W. to see some of his confusi­on; and to prove his laughing he brings, The righteous shall see them, and laugh them to scorn: I say, It hath in this thing large­ly manifested his folly and vanity, in his, and his companies laughing and scoffing among such a great company, which did incourage prophane and ignorant people in their scorn and laughter, which is madness; which these Professors stirred up in them, but many that were sober saw their folly and pro­phaneness therein; so that J. H. was not a Minister of grace to the hearers, but of that which stirred up folly and madness among them. And now what impudence is he in, to boast of such vanity and wickedness in print, and bring David's words for a cover to it? when he never knew the state of David, nor truly understands when to laugh, and when to mourn, as ap­pears by his unsavory practices: So that the righteous who sit­teth on high will laugh him to scorn, who hath scorned the in­nocent, and caused others so to do as he hath done; and wo un­to them that laugh now, for they shall mourn and weep, Luk 6.25.

J. H. accounts, that he is compleatly righteous, though in himself he acknowledges sin, and for proof he saith the Apo­stle said, Colos 2.10. In him yee are complete: and yet in the same Epistle to the same people, he saith; Chap. 3.5. Mor [...]ifie therefore your members that be upon earth, fornication, uncleaness, &c. If these were not in them, how could they be called their members upon earth? To which I saying the Apostles writing to the Churches, writ to diverse states, some of them were complete in Christ, and others were not, &c. J. H. saith, the Apostle makes no such distinction; and he saith, What [...] think the Apostle writ one Chapter to one part of the [...], and another Chapter to another?’ Reply: The Apostle never said that they that were in the fornication, uncleanness, inor­dinate affections, evil concupiscence, covetousness, were then in that state complete in Christ; for they that were complete in Christ had put off all these, and knew the old man with his deeds, and the body of the sins of the flesh put off, Colos. 2.10, 11. & 3 7, 8, 9, 10. So that the members of that body could not re­main where the body on which they were was [...]ut off, and so [Page 24]the Apostles exhorting to mortifie their members which were upon earth; as fornication, uncleanness, in which they walked in time past, does not prove that all the Colossians were in the fornication, as follows from J. H. his words: who makes no distinction of the state among these Paul writ to, but blindly cavills at me for distinguishing the diverse states when I distin­guished the state of being complete in Christ, where the body of sin is put off from the state of fornication and uncleanness, and his asking, if the Apostle writ one Chapter to one part of the people, and another Chapter to another, does manifest his blindness; for the Apostles Epistles were not divided into Chap­ters when he writ them, as now they are. And as for that 1 King. 8.46. where it's said, For there is no man that sinneth not, which Jo. Horne and T. Moore have much cavilled at me for owning it but as belonging to that state wherein all men were sinners, and so J. H. saith, There is no man living sinneth not, Jesus Christ excepted. In this have they contradicted Johns words, who said 1 Joh. 3. Whosoever is born of God sinneth not, neither can he sin; and he that abideth in Christ, sinneth not: and he that doth righteousness, is righteous, even as Christ is righteous; so that such is not included in these words mentioned in 1 King. 8.46, they knowing a better Covenant then that which the Is­raelites were under when that was spoken by Solomon, 1 King. 8.46 and J. H. and T. M. in page 8. acknowledge, That they that are born of God cannot sin, or do any thing against the truth: and that sin dwelt in Paul, but it was not he that did it; so that this flatly contradicts his saying; There is no man living that sinneth not; and their applying that Scripture, 1 King. 8.46. to them that cannot sin, nor do any thing against the Truth, and [...]cusing such with it, as being sinners: Thus their confusi­on and folly appears in striving for the Divels Kingdom, by contending or pleading for his work, which is sin, which Christ comes to destroy, and throughly to purge and sanctifie the crea­ture from: who is the one offering by which God hath for ever perfected them that are sancrified. And at the end of J. H. his Relation of the Discourse between us, it's said thus, viz. ‘[To such purpose was the Discourse between J. H. and G. W. we have here given the substance and scope, if not also the ve­ry [Page 25]form of the Answers, and the very Words and form so much as could be remembred, &c.]’ To which I say, Here J. Horne seems as if he would make people believe, that he him­self did not give forth the said Relation, but some others, but then who these were is not mentioned; for they have not sub­scribed their names to it, and here it is but related doubtfully, as if the Relators thereof had but depended upon their own me­mories, as relating so much of it as could be remembred: But dare J. H. say that he was not the Author of the said lame and imperfect Relation of the Discourse? nor the cause of its be­ing published? and that it was all as it is related in the particu­lars thereof, taken from our own mouths, as and when we dis­puted? Let the Reader judge of his deceit in these things.

And where in the said Pamphlet it is said, The wh [...]le compa­ny seeming generally well satisfied against the Quakers, to the no smal trouble of the Quakers, as might be conceived for their coming divers of them in the next Lords-day after with G. W. to the Congregati­on, &c. These are more of the lies which J. H. boasts in, as ma­ny that heard our discourse (who saw the truth over him, in which we had peace, and were not at all troubled) can witness against these things as lies, and that diverse of the Quakers came with me on that day to the Congregation, is false: for I went alone to the Steeple-house, and their coming was not known to me before I went, though they came, desiring to see what be­came of me there; and so they saw the abuse that some of this J. H. his hearers did against me, in not suffering me to speak to them in the Steeple house when he had done, but violently pul­led me down, tore off my Hat, and haled me out; insomuch that many that were not of the Quakers, spake against them for it, and would have had me spoken: and as a friend told me that day, an Alderman of their own company said to him, as that if I went again to that Congregation hee feared I should receive harme or prejudice to my person, though I did not look out at that. And whereas I said I had a word from the Lord to the people, J. H. in his Postscript doth declare, ‘[That he judg it as well done in those persons in power, not to suffer the said G. W. to utter his pretended Word from the Lord: and that it is well done of the people not to hear it: [Page 26]and that they shall do evil, if hereafter they any of them per­mit me to speak, and much more if they hear and liften to me, or any of us in such way of doctrine, he saith.]’ To which I say then J.H. would incourage those persons in power to persecute me, and to cause the outward man to suffer (upon the like oc­casion it seems) and thus he would stop the witness of God in me (which torments him) from speaking: though it was not the persons in power (viz. the Magistrates) that did so abuse me in his Steeple-house, as I was abused, for some of them in power indeavoured to preserve me from the abuse of them that did chiefly abuse me, and the people did hear me in the Yard, contrary to this Priest's words and mind: But if neither J. Horne nor any of his hearers, (according to his direction to them) must permit me to speak, then from this, they must either cruel­ly punish me some way or other, to stop my mouth, or else they must murther me; how should they hinder me from speakingels? And here he hath not onely included himself as one that must persecute me to hinder me from speaking; but also he hath given liberty to the people who are not in power or authority, to per­secute me, as if he were some great tyrannizing Magistrate, ma­nifesting himself to be in Cain's Way: So whether this Priest Horne doth intend with his Hearers to proceed lawfully against me, ot not, the People may easily judge; for which I leave him to the Lord to be judged for his malice herein. And here also you may see that J.H. was not able to tear nor woory me, nor to stop my mouth with his words, as falsly he would boast, see­ing he is fain to encourage them in power, & the people to hinder me from speaking: And this is the beastly shift these silly Priests are fain to flee to when their Gospel will not defend them; nei­ther can their God give them victory by it.

And J.H. saith, As for this People the quakers, unless they see and turn from their evil Way, God's hand will be against them, and that their root is rottenness, and shall be dried and perish, he saith.

To which I say, J. Horne hath but here judged us in his malice, and prophesied from the envy of his own heart, and we doubt not but his Prophesie will prove false, and come to pass upon [Page 27]himself; and many such lying Prophets against us as he is, there is in the World; and if our root were rottenness, how is it we we are such a heavy judgement, burthen and torment to him, and such deceivers as he is? And how is it we encrease and grow so much in the power of God, that our Borders are so much en­larged, that We are a burthen to our Enemies, such false Pro­phets and blind Watchmen as J H. is, who with his Brother T.M. hath acknowledged us to be a heavy Judgement that God hath ordered to punish them for their neglect of Christ, and the abuse of his Truth; and yet since he hath boasted of their being able to woory and tear me, and now accuseth our root to be rotten­ness; which is as much as if they had said, They can woory and tear the heavy Judgement that God hath ordered to them, and that the Root of that judgement is rottenness, according to this Priest Horn's own Words; and herein hath he sadly blasphe­med against God, who is the root of his own Judgements; one of whose Judgements we are ordered by him to punish J.H. and such as he is, for their neglect of Christ, and the abuse of his Truth; and therefore we must do the Work that God hath sent us for: And what presumption is it of J.H. to perswade his Hearers not to permit us to speak, nor to liften to us, but to ac­count us accursed, when we are the heavy Judgement that God ordered to punish them for their abuse of his truth, vvhich is all one as if he had said, Permit not God to speak by his Judgement to us, nor listen to the Judgement that God hath ordered to punish us for our our faults, but account it accursed. And thus his blasphemy and hardness of he [...]rt is manifest, like theirs vvho repented not of their evil deeds, (spoken of in Rev. 16.9. but blasphemed against the God of Heaven vvhen they vvere in tor­ment under the Plagues of God, vvhose Judgements are all righ­teous upon the disobedient.

J. H. saith, The King Christ shall rejoice in God, and every one that swears by (or confesseth) him shall glory, Psal. 63.10. Let them alone, neither abuse them with incivilities, &c. To which I say, If every one that swears by Christ shall glory, then must the Drun­kards and Liars, and all such prophane persons as swearby him, glory; and so this doctrine of his tends to the incouraging of Drunkards, and profane persons in swearing, which is against [Page 28]the Doctrine of Christ, who put an end to the Oaths and swea­ring which was under the Lavv, where there vvas svvearing by the Lord; for Christ and the Apostle commanded not to svvear at all: and he that transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not. And if people must let us alone, and not abuse us vvith incivilities, then J. H. and his company ought to permit us to speak, and he ought not encourage them to persecute us, as he hath done a little before: thus he still dis­covers his ovvn confusion, whereby he hath so long abused the Truth of God, and been fighting against the heavie Judgment of God (vvhich is his due) as he hath done, vvho by his carri­age and Doctrine hath encouraged drunkards, scoffers and svvearers in their vvickedness. Thus all that come to the Truth may see hovv evill men and seducers vvax vvorse and vvorse.

And to these words in J. H. his Pamphlet, which are thus laid down, viz. Our Lord Jesus teaching his Disciples to pray to God as their Father, and in the first place to breathe or desire the hallowing or sanctifying of Gods Name, the coming of his Kingdom, and that his will might be done in earth as it is in heaven, and yet teaching them to pray for forgiveness of their trespasses; doth he not strongly and plain­ly imply, that even such as are the children of God, and so born of God, and that have their hearts through his grace, set for the glory of God's Name above all things, and so for the coming of his Kingdom, and the doing of his will, have sins and trespasses against God, of which they need forgiveness.

I answer; Men may call God Father, as he is the Creator of all: Mal. 2 10. before they are born of God, or before the birth which is from above, be brought forth in them, which is indued with power from on high; and before the Disciples were endued with that power, or come to that state, they were to pray for the forgiveness of their trespasses: Now that which was in the Trespasses, was not the Seed in them which the Promise was to; neither in that state was the Seed brought forth to reign, while the first Birth or trespasser against God which the Law takes hold upon, was alive and acting them; and no man can truly call God Father, but by the Holy Ghost; and that which called him Father in the Disciples of Christ, (when they were begot­ten to the belief of the Truth) was begotten of him; and they [Page 29]praying in that (as being begotten before they were in the stat­of him that is born of God, as mentioned in 1 Joh. 3) they re­ceived what they asked, and so came to have their trespasses for given as they forgave others theirs, and to inherit the Kingdom of God and his Power, which they prayed for, Col. 1.14 Rev. 12 10. In which Kingdom there is no sinne, nor unclean thing can come; and they that are come to the childrens state, that are born of God and abide in Christ, they sin not; and the childrens state must be witnessed, before the Kingdom be inherited; also there may be children begotten, and not in that which is born of God, nor in the Kingdome, if they abide not in the Seed; such as Paul travelled for, that Christ might be formed in them.

J.H. again saith, Or is it not evident that our Saviour teacheth thus to pray, till his Name be perfectly every where hallowed, his Kingdom fully come, and his Will perfectly done every where, even in earth as in heaven, which is not in this world, saith he.

I answer; Why should Christ teach his to pray that his Will may be perfectly done every where, even in earth, as it is in hea­ven, if it be not in this World so to be done? What darkness is this J. H. in, and confusion? And how hath he herein appeared against the end for which the Disciples of Christ prayed as he taught them, who prayed that the Fathers Will might be done in Earth as in Heaven, which this Priest hath denied to be in this World; but Christs Testimony contradicts him; for Christ saith, What things soever ye desire when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them, Mark 11.23, 24. And they desired the Will of God to be done in Earth, as in Heaven, where there is no sin.

J. H. saith, But by adding the Prayer for daylie Bread, and that before Prayer for forgiveness of their Trespasses; doth he not imply that so long as men have need of Bread for their life, they have also need to pray for pardon of, and keeping from sin: if then the quakers (so cal­led) will say they have no sin in them, let them manifest it in living without Bread or food, and we may then (it may be) think there is ground to believe them, that the Name of God is so hallowed, his Kingdom so come, and his will so done in them, that they have no sin nor trespasses.

Answ. Here J. H. hath shewed himself to be a scornful temp­ter, and a blind unbeliever; For Christ when upon earth did eat Bread and Food, but that did not argue that he had sin; and he hath left us an example that his steps should be followed who did not sin, 1 Pet. 2 21, 22. And how shall men pray for keeping from sin, if they may not be kept from it, according to J. H. his Words, who also would make Christs praying of none effect, if none may be kept from sin; for Christ prayed to the Father that his children might be kept from the evil, even in the World, and be perfect in one as he and his Father were one, John 17. And twhen some of the quakers have fasted certain dayes together as they were moved, (and as many of Gods People have done) and been upheld in it by the Power of God, some of this generation of tempters have slandered them, as being in delusion or Witch­craft; and one partaking of their iniquities is this Priest Horne, and he saith that they may (it may be) think there is ground to believe us if we will live without bread or food: It appears its but doubtful whether they'l believe us or not, if such a thing might be: Thus J.H. thy folly and deceit is gone abroad: Oh! gross darkness is thy Habitation.

J. H. saith, Note, whosoever is born of God sinneth not; whosoever is perfectly born of God, as the spirits of just men made perfect, that is deceased, they cannot sin; nor the men when their spirits and bodies shall be re-united in the Resurrection; but none are so perfectly born of God here.

Answ. Oh what pitiful stuff is here, to imagine that men are not perfectly born of God, so as not to sin, till they are decea­sed, and when their spirits and bodies should be re-united in the Resurrection! And this would make the work of God imperfect here, when all his Works are perfect: And what were these that were born of God in the Apostles dayes, (who the Apostle said, could not sin) some that were deceased and risen again, having their bodies and spirits re-united then in the Resurrection (ac­cording to what J.H. speaks?) Surely J. H. had I said as much as thou hast done herein, thou might well have said that I under­mine the hope of the Gospel; and much more of thy confusion and lyes have I left unmentioned here.

And where J.H. saith, that G.F. and G.W. uncivilly pos [...]d him up as going away on purpose (intending that they posted him up as going on purpose out of Lin to avoid disputing with them) this is falshood: For what we posted up, had not those words in it, but was a true Relation to certifie the people why we could not then have a publike meeting (as we demanded) neither with J.H. nor T.M. that they might not think that the canse of our not meeting with them at that time, did lie upon our parts, but upon theirs, and this was occasioned by J.H. his many slanderous Papers which he posted up before, wherein he charged the [...] ­kers with being dec [...]ivers and accursed; and in some of his Pa­pers he promised to make that charge good, as, and when there­to lawfully called; which he hath not yet done, nor can do.

Some of J. H. his Doctrines and slanders against us, are here again laid down, which all that are sober-minded who read this, may judge of, and see that he hath not made them good against us.

One particular he urged, and in effect affirmed, was, That the corruption which Paul groaned and waited for the redemption of the bo­dy from, was the corruption of Mortality in which the body is in death when it is in corruption.

That the Prophets and Apostles had sin in them so long as they li­ved.

That the Scriptures never sayes, Let not sin be in you.

That there is no man living that sinneth not, Jesus Christ excepted.

That the Quakers are deceivers, and such as the People ought not to hear, but to account them accursed.

That they (to wit, the Quakers) come not as the true Prophets and Apostles did, viz. With abasements of themselves, and lifting up God and Christ.

That they subvert the Faith, in saying that the knowledge of Christ that is to eternal salvation, is the knowledge of him after the Spirit, as he was before the world was.

That they deny the resurrection of the bodies of men.

That they deny Christ to have that body in heaven glorified, in which he suffered and rose again.

That the Quakers say, the coming of Christ in which he shall descend with a shout, with the voice of the Arch-Angel, and the Trump of [Page 32]God, and when the dead in Christ shall be raised, and the living belie­vers be changed, is over and past.

J.H. said, he is not a dumb dog, for he is able to tear and woo­ry me, and such Foxes.

Now these his charges against us called quakers, which are but a few of his many slanders, I return them back upon him, and reject them as lyes and slandars; and if he further assay to make them good, I shall know further how to proceed against him, as the Lord shall make way; for I have much more of his confusi­on, false doctrines and slanders, which are not yet gone abroad, which I have noted, and are upon Record:

One thing more I note, That the said J. Horne and T. Moore in a Paper against me, say (of us called quakers) That we be indeed Vipers and Scorpions, Cockatrices not to be charmed, and like the Locusts out of the bottomless pit, whose sting is in their Tales, they say: And yet these men that have thus reproached us, have confessed that we are a heavy judgement that God hath ordered to them, to punish them for their neglect of Christ the salvation of God, and the Truth of him so long abused by them. Novv from their ovvn confession they are such as have not the seal of God upon their foreheads; for the Locusts were onely sent to punish these men that had not the seal of God upon their foreheads; Rev. 94. Thus their malice and confusion is gone a­broad, who shall know one day that we are another manner of Judgement against them, then the Locusts; and the more they strive against the heavy Judgement that God hath ordered to punish them for the neglect of Christ, and abusing of his Truth, the greater will their shame and torment be.

And all People in whom there is a simplicity of Truth appea­ring, and a desire stirring in you after life for your souls, beware of the Leaven of these Deceivers and abusers of the Truth, who are so contending and pleading for sinne, whereby the Devils Kingdom is upheld and strengthened, and his subjects encoura­ged in his service; for the hand of the Lord is against them, and God will assuredly confound and overthrow them; their confu­sion and folly is already much gone abroad, therefore feed not you upon their confusion, nor upon their chaff (dead words) but come off from among these barren Mountains, and heed [Page 33]the appearance of the Light of the Lord in you, and feel it, that you may come to the bread of Life, and to feed upon the flesh of Christ which comes down from Heaven: For the Lord is exalt­ing his holy Mountain above all the barren Mountains that have lifted up themselves against him. Blessed are they that come into the love of the Truth, and wait in the Light of it in them, whereby they may be undeceived, and escape out of the snares of such ungodly men who make a prey upon souls.

The End.

This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Text Creation Partnership. Searching, reading, printing, or downloading EEBO-TCP texts is reserved for the authorized users of these project partner institutions. Permission must be granted for subsequent distribution, in print or electronically, of this EEBO-TCP Phase II text, in whole or in part.