TVVO SPEECHES OF THE RIGHT HONOV­RABLE WILLIAM, Lord Vicount SAY and SEALE, Mr. of his Majesties Court of Wards and Li­veries, and one of his Majesties most Honourable Privy Councell, spoken in Parliament.

The first upon the Bill against Bishops.

The other a Declaration of himselfe touching the Liturgie.

[fleur-de-lis]

LONDON, Printed for Thomas Vnder-hill. 1641.

A Speech of the Right Honou­nourable WILLIAM, Lord Vicount Say and Seale, one of his Majesties most Honou­rable privie Councell, spoken in Parliament upon the Bill against the Bishops.

MY LORDS,

I Shall not need to begin as high as A­dam in answer to what hath beene drawne downe from thence by a Bi­shop concerning this question,The Bishop of Lincolne. for that which is pertinent to it will onely be what concernes Bishops as they are ministers of the Gospell, what was before (being of another nature) can give no rule to this. The question that will lye before your Lordships in passing of this bill is not whether Episcopacie (I meane this Hierarchicall Episco­pacy which the world now holds forth to us) shall be ta­ken away Roote and branch, but whether those exuberant and superfluous branches, which draw away the sap from the tree, and divert it from the right and proper use where­by it becomes unfruitfull, shall be cut off, as they use to pluck up suckers from the Roote. The question will be no more but this, whether Bishops shall be reduced to what they [Page 2] were in their first advancement over the presbyters (which although it were but a humane device for the Remedie of Scisme, yet were they in those times least offensive) or con­tinue still with the addition of such things, as their owne ambition, and the ignorance and superstitions of succeeding times did adde thereunto, and which are now continued for severall politicke erds, things heterogencall and incon­sistent with their calling and function as they are ministers of the Gospell, and thereupon such, a ever have beene, and ever will be, hurtfull to themselves, and make them hurtfull to others, in the times and places where they are conti­nued. And these things alone this bill takes away, that is their offices and places in Courts of Iudicature, and their imployments by Obligation of office in civill affaires: I shall insist upon this, to shew first how these things hurt themselves, and secondly, how they have made, and ever will make them hurtfull to others; They themselves are hurt thereby in their consciences, and in their credits; In their consciences, by seeking or admitting things which are in­consistent with that function and office which God hath set them apart unto. They are separated unto a speciall worke, and men must take heed how they mis-imploy things dedicated and set apart to the service of God; They are called to preach the Gospell, and set apart to the worke of the ministery, and the Apostle saith, who is sufficient for these things, shewing that this requireth the whole man, and all is too little, therefore for them to seeke, or take other offices which shall require and tye them to imploy their time and studies in the affaires of this world, will draw a guilt upon them, as being inconsistent with that which God doth call them and set them apart unto. In this respect our Saviour hath expresly prohibited it, telling his Apostles that they should not Lord it over their Bre­thren, nor exercise Jurisdiction over them, as was vsed in civill governments among the Heathen: They were called gracious Lords, and exercised Jurisdiction as Lords over [Page 3] others, and sure they might lawfully doe so: but to the Ministers of the Gospell our Saviour gives this Rule, it shall not be so done by you; If ye strive for greatnesse, he shall be the greatest that is the greatest servant to the rest; therefore in another place he saith, He that putteth his hand to the Plow and looketh backe to the things of this world is not fit for the kingdome of God, that is the preaching of the Gospell, as it is usually called. To be thus withdrawne by intangling themselves with the affaires of this life by the necessi [...]y and duty of an Of­fice received from men, from th [...] discharge of that Office which God hath called them unto, brings a woe upon them; Woe unto me, saith the Apostle, if I preach not the Gospel, what doth he meane? If I preach not once a quar­ter, or once a yeare in the Kings Chappelle No he himselfe interpreteth it; Preach the Word, [...]e instant, in season and out of season, rebuke, exhort, or instruct, with all long suffe­ring and doctrine: he that hath an office, must attend upon his office, especially this of the ministery. The practice of the Apostles is answerable to the direction, and doctrine of our Saviour. There never was, nor will be, men of so great abilities and gifts as they were indued withall, yet they thought it so inconsistent with their Callings to take places of Iudicature in civill matters, and secular affaires and imployments upon them, that they would not admit of the care and distraction that a businesse farre more a­greeable to their Callings, then these, would cast upon them, and they give the reason of it, in the sixth of the Acts. It is not reason that we should leave the word of God and serve Tables. And againe, when they had appointed them to choose men fit for that businesse, they institute an office rather for taking care of the poore, then th [...]y by it would be distracted from the principall worke of their Calling, and then shew how they ought to imploy themselues; But we (said they) will give our selves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the Word; [Page 4] Did the Apostles, men of extraordinary gifts, thinke it unreasonable for them to be hindred from giving them­selves continually to p [...]hing the Word and prayer, by taking care for the [...]les of the poore Widowes, and can the Bishops no [...] thinke it reasonable or law­full for them to contend for fitting at Councell Ta­ble; to governe States, to turne States-men in stead of Church men, to sit in the highest Courts of Iudica­ture, and to bee imployed in making lawes for civill polities and government? If they shall bee thought sit to sit in such places, and will undertake such imploy­ments, they must not sit there as ignorant men, but must be knowing men in businesses of State, and understand the Rules and Lawes of government, and thereby both their time and studies must be necessarily diverted from that which God hath called them unto; And this sure is much more unlawfull for them to admit of, then that which the Apostles rejected as a distraction unreasonable for them to bee interrupted by. The do­ctrine of the Apostles is agreeable to their practice herein, for Paul when hee instructeth Timothy for the worke of the ministery presseth this argument from the example of a good souldier, no man that warreth in­tangleth himselfe with the affaires of the world: So that I conclude, That which by the commandement of our Saviour, by the practice and doctrine of the Apo­stles, and I may adde by the Canons of ancient Coun­cels, grounded thereupon, is prohibited to the Mini­sters of the Gospell, and shewed to be such a distraction unto them from their Callings and function, as will bring a woe upon them, and is not reasonable for them to admit of; If they shall notwithstanding intangle themselves withall, and enter into, it will bring a guilt upon their soules, and hurt them in respect of their consciences.

In the next place it doth blemish them, and strike [Page 5] them in their credit, so farre from truth is that position which they desire to possesse the world withall, that un­lesse they may have these outward trappings of world­ly pompe added to the ministry, that Calling will grow into contempt, and bee despised. The truth is, these things cast contempt upon them in the eyes of men. They gaine them cappe and courtesie, but they have cast them out of the consciences of men; and the reason is this, every thing is esteemed as it is eminent in its owne proper excellencie; the eye in seeing, not in hearing; the eare in hearing, not in speaking; The one would bee rather monstrous then comely, the other is ever acceptable being proper; so is it with them, their proper excellency is spirituall, the denyall of the world with the pompe and preferments, and imployments thereof, this they should teach and practise, but when they contrary hereunto seeke after a worldly excel­lency like the great men of the world, and to rule and dominere as they doe contrary to our Saviours pre­cept, Vos autem non sic, but it shall not bee so amongst you, in stead of honour and esteeme, they have brought upon themselves in the hearts of the people that con­tempt and odium which they now lye under, and that justly and necessarily, because the world seeth that they preferre a worldly excellency, and runne after it, and contend for it, before their owne, which being spirituall is farre more excellent, and which being proper to the Ministrie is that alone which will put a value and e­steeme upon them that are of that Calling. As these things hurt themselves in their consciences and credit, so have they, and, if they bee continued, still will make them hurtfull to others; The reason is, because they breake out of their owne orbe, and move irregularly, there is a curse upon their leaving of their owne place. The heavenly bodies while they keepe within their owne spheres give light and comfort to the world, [Page 6] But if they should breake out, and fall from their regu­lar and proper motions, they would set the world on fire: so have these done while they kept themselves to the worke of their ministery alone, and gave themselves to prayer, and the ministry of the Word, according to the example of the Aposties, the world received the greatest benefits by them, they were the light, and life thereof; But when their ambition cast them downe like starres from heaven to earth, and they did grow once to be advanced above their brethren, I doe appeale to all who have beene versed in the ancient Ecclesiasticall sto­ries, or moderne Histories, whether they have not beene the common incendiaries of the Christian world, never ceasing from contention one with another about the precedency of their Sees, and Churches, Excommunica­ting one another, drawing Princes to bee parties with them, and thereby casting them into bloody warres. Their ambition, and intermedling with secular affaires and State businesse, hath beene the cause of shedding more Christian blood then any thing else in the Christi­an world, and this no man can deny that is versed in History; But we need not goe out of our owne King­dome for examples of their insolency and cruelty; when they had a dependancy upon the Pope, and any footing thereby out of the Land, there were never any that car­ryed themselves with so much scorne and inslencie to­wards the Princes of this Kingdome, as they have done. Two of them the Bishop that last spake hath named,Lincolne. but instances of many more may bee given whereof there would bee no end. Although the Pope bee cast off, yet now there is another inconvenience no lesse prejudiciall to the Kingdome by their sitting in this House, and that is, they have such an absolute dependancy upon the King, that they sit not here as freemen. That which is requi­site to freedome, is to be void of hopes and feares; Hee that can lay downe these is a free-man, and will be so in [Page 7] this house; But for the Bishops as the case stands with them, it is not likely they will lay aside their hopes, greater Bishopricks being still in expectancy: and for their feares they cannot lay them downe, since their pla­ces and seats in Parliament are not invested in them by blood, and so hereditary, but by annexation of a Barony to their office, and depending upon that office, so that they may be deprived of their office, and thereby of their places, at the Kings pleasure, they doe not so much as sit here dum bene se gesserint, as the Judges now by your Lordships petition to the King have their places granted them, but at will and pleasure, and therefore as they were all excluded by Edw. the first as long as hee pleased, and Lawes made excluso Clero, so may they be by any King at his pleasure in like manner, they must needs therefore bee in an absolute dependencie upon the Crowne, and thereby at devotion for their votes, which how preju­diciall it hath beene, and will be, to this house I need not say.

I have now shewed your Lordships how hurtfull to themselves and others these things which the bill would take away have beene, I will onely answer some Obje­ctions which I have met withall, and then crave your par­don for troubling you so long.

Object.

  • 1. It will be said that they have beene very antient.
  • 2. That they are established by law.
  • 3. That it may be an infringement to the priviled­ges of the House of Peeres, for the house of Commons to send up a Bill to take away some of their members.

To these three objections the answer will be easie.

  • 1. To the first, Antiquity is no good plea, for that which is by experience found to be hurtfull, the longer it hath done hurt the more cause there is now to re­move it, that it may doe no more, besides other irregula­rities are as antient which have beene thought fit to bee [Page 8] redressed, and this is not so antient, but that it may tru­ly be said, Non fuit sie ab initio.
  • 2. For being established by Law, the law-makers have the same power, and the same charge, to alter old lawes inconvenient, as to make new that are ne­cessary.
  • 3. For priviledge of the House it can be no breach of it, for either estate may propose to other by way of bill what they conceive to bee for publicke good, and they have power respectively of accepting or re­fusing.

There are two other Objections which may seeme to have more force, but they will receive satisfactory an­swers.

The one is, that if they may remove Bishops, they may aswell next time remove Barons and Earles: for answer.

The Reason is not the same, the one sitting by an Ho­nour invested in their blood, and hereditary, which though it be in the King to grant alone, yet being once granted he cannot take away; the other sitting by a Ba­rony depending upon an Office which may bee taken a­way, for if they be deprived of their office they sit not.

2. Their sitting is not so essentiall, for Lawes have beene, and may be made, they being all excluded, but it can never be shewed, that ever there were Lawes made by the King, and them, the Lords and Earles excluded.

Object. The other objection is this, that this Bill alters the foundation of this house, and innovations which shake foundations are dangerous.

Answ. I answer first, that if there should bee an error in the foundation, when it shall be found, and the master buil­ders be met together, they may, nay, they ought rather to amend it, then to suffer it to runne on still, to the pre­judice and danger of the whole structure.

2. Secondly, I say this is not fundamentall to this [Page 9] House, for it hath stood without them, and done all tha [...] appertaines to the power thereof without them, yea, they being wholly excluded, and that which hath beene done for a time at the Kings pleasure may be done with as little danger for a longer time, and when it ap­peares to be fit and for publick good, not onely may, but ought to be done altogether by the su­preme Power.

FINIS.

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