A SPEECH of the Right Honorable the Lord Vicount Say and Seale, one of his Maiesties Privie Councell.

SPOKEN IN PARLIA­ment the 25th. day of February, Anno Dom. 1642. Concerning the Bishop of Canterburies Petition, delivered to the High Court of Parliament, February the 22. 1642. ⟨1641⟩

Avouched by Richard Browne, Clericus.

London, Printed T. Bankes. 1642.

A SPEECH OF THE right Honourable the Lord Vicount Saye and Seale, one of his Maiesties privy Councell.
Spoken in Parliament the twenty fifth day of February, Anno Dom. 1642. Concerning the Bishop of Can­terburies Petition delivered to the high Court of Parliament. February, 22. 1642.

Master Speaker.

I Have waited to finde you free from greater bu­sinesses, that I might crave leave to speake of some things concerning my selfe, and this I have the more desired since my Lord of Canterburies Peti­tion, who expressing his troubles, and bewayling the misery of his condition, and of the condition of the Church of England (for hee would needs ioyne them [Page 2]together) which I thinke he may, as the cause and ef­fect, (for the miseries of the Church have certainly risen from him.) as also he insisted much upon this, that these troubles had befallen him through the ma­lice of two parties, the Papists, and the Sectaries, and by those he said the Church was greatly afflicted, how farre this man will extend this word Sectary, and whom he will comprehend under it I know not, but I have cause to feare; that I may lye under some mis­apprehensions in respect of matters of this Nature, which how farre it concerneth him, your Lordships will perceive by what I shall say. My Lord of Canter­bury a man of a meane birth, bred up in a Colledge (and that to frequently falls out to be in a faction, whose narrow comprehensions extended it selfe no further, then to carry on a side in the colledge, or can­vas for a proctors place in the Vniversity, being sud­denly advanced to highest places of Government in Church and State, had not his heart inlarged, by the inlargement of his fortunes, but still the maintaining of his party, was that which filled all his thoughts, which he prosecuted with so much violence, and in­consideratenesse, that he had not an eye to see the con­sequences thereof to Church state; untill he brought both into such distractions, danger and dishonour which we now finde our selves incompassed with all.

My Lords, as for me he hath beene pleased to say that he had observed me, not to come to prayers and added that I was in his knowledge, as great a Separa­tist as any was in England.

For the first of these that he chargeth upon me, it may be hee was willing to have it thought that I [Page 3]would not joyne in prayer with your Lordships, (which is altogether false, for I should most willingly joyne in prayer with you, and further I will adde that I doe not thinke but some set formes of prayer by some men, in some cases, may be lawfully used, but this is that which I am not satisfied in that, a certaine number of men should usurpe an authority unto themselves, to frame certaine prayers, and formes of divine service, and when that is done under the name of the Church, to enjoyne them upon all persons in all times, and upon all occasions to be used, and no other.

This sets aside the gifts and graces which Christ hath given; and thrusts out the excercise of them to substitute in their places, and introduce a device of man, This mu­nition of such formes upon all men, turnes that which in the beginning necessity brought in, for the helpe of insu­ficiency, to be now the continuance and maintenance of insufficiency, and a barre to the excercise of able and suf­ficient gifts, and graces, as if because some men had need to make use of crutches, all men should be prohibited, the use of their leggs, and inioyned to take up such crutches as have beene prepared for those who have no leggs, as for my part I will not refuse to come to prayer; for I take the sinne then to be personall, and to reside in the person officiating onely I know not whether I expresse my selfe clearely in this or not, and it may seeme to be a vice scrupulositie, give me leave therefore to indeavour to cleare it by an instance or two, in the time of the law when God appointed himselfe to be worshiped by offe­rings, and sacrifices, the shadowes and tipes of those truthes which were to come, if a poore man that had not ability to bringe a Bullocke, or a Rame, or a [Page 4]Lambe, had brought a paire of Turtle Doves, or two younge Pigeons, it would have beene in him an acceptable service, but if a man of abilitie who had Heards and flockes, shoulde out of negligence or coveteousnesse have spared the coste of a Bullocke or a Rame, and brought young Pigeons, his service would have bene reiected, how much more would the service have been abomination if men should have taken autho­ritie, to have inioyned all to bring noe other but Turtle or young Pigeons, because some were not able to doe more.

Now in this time of the gospell God hath appointed the foolishnesse of preaching, for so the world accountes it to be the meanes whereby he will save those that be­leive, I conceive that where there are noe giftes enable­ing men to preach, there might be a lawful & profitable use of reading of printed sermons and Homilies and in such case they might very lawfully be heard, but if some men upon pretence to prevent extravagant preaching should take upon them to publish and sett forth a booke of pub­licke and common sermons, fitt for all times and occati­ons, and should enioyne ministers to conforme to those, and use noe preaching at all, this would make it utterly unlawfull, and to be professed against, as that which were the bringing in of a human device & munition the place and instead of Gods ordinance, and therefore the evill of it would soone appeare to us if so inioynd. Therefore I hope your Lordshipps will in that respect lett me stand right in your opinions, and I shall now end with two re­quests.

The one that your Lordshippes will please to pardon me for troublinge you with so longe adiscourse con­cerning my selfe.

[Page 5] The second is humbly to intreate of you that where you know there is one and the same God worshiped, one and the same faith embraced, one, and the same spirit moveing, workeing love and an unblameable conversa­tion with out any offence to the state in your brethren that in all these concure with you, will not suffer them (for Ceremonies and things to you indifferent) but not to them, but these which with out offence to the state, or preiudice to the Church you may take of, to be thrust out of the Land, as it weare and cutt of from the native Countrie, for if thus you shall wound the consciences of your brethren, you will certainely offend and sinne a­gainst Christ.


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