AN ANSWER To a Late PAMPHLET, Called a Sober Dialogue, Between a Scotch Presbyterian a London Church-man, and a Real Quaker, scandalously reflecting on the Church of England, As if her Doctrine and COmmon-Prayer did justifie the Antichristian Doctrine, of the Real Quaker, viz. That the Light Within, whither in Heathen, or Christian is sufficient to Salvation without any thing else; wherein the plain Deism and Anti-Christian Principles of the Real Quaker and his Party, and the pretended Church man, are plainly detected.

By a Friend to the Author of the Dialogue, called, a Sober Dialogue, between a Country Friend, a London Friend, and one of G. K.'s Friends.

London, Printed for Sam. Clark in George-yard in Lombard-street. 1698/9.

A SOBER DIALOGUE BETWEEN A Country Friend, a Lon­don Friend, and one of G. K's. Friends, Concerning The great Difference of Faith and Doctrin betwixt many of the Quakers, especially their Principal Teachers and him.

Lond. Friend

HOW dost thee do my Friend? How doe Friends in your Parts? Are you still quiet among your selves, and all of one mind?

Country Friend,

No, we are far from being quiet among our selves.

Lond. Fr.

What is the matter with you?

Co. Fr.

The matter, why the very Foundation of Truth is struck at by G. K. his Books fill us with strange apprehen­sions; he tells us, and that from plain Scripture, that the Light within will not save us without something else.

Lond. Fr.

Well, and what say Friends to it?

Co. Fr.
[Page 2]

Say, why, they know not what to say, and most of our sober and think­ing Friends are at a stand, doubting they have been mislead; some diligently search­ing the Scriptures find that we are mista­ken, for that in Men that reproves for Sin, is only the Law written in the Heart, there accusing or excusing; and withal we find that Christ Jesus saith, that he came not to condemn the World but to save it; saying, that it was Moses or the Law that did condemn.

Lond. Fr.

What, are all our Ministers so Blind as not to know the Doctrin of the Law from Christ's Doctrin? why, the Law can make nothing perfect as pertaining to the Conscience, but the bringing in of a better hope; sure this hope must be in Christ Jesus, and not in that which condemns for Sin; for my Friend, what simply condemns us does not forgive us, but as G. K. says, there must be one to forgive our Trespasses, as well as a Judge to Condemn us; so that it is plain that the Light Within cannot save without something else.

Co. Fr.

Blind, I fear they are blind in­deed, and have led too many of us into the Ditch. On my word, 'tis a horrible mistake to say, that what does Reprove [Page 3]can Save us; they may as well say, that John the Baptist was Christ.—But prethee what says W. P. to this?

Lon. Fr.

Why, he says Truth is the same as ever it was; and says, Friends keep to your Ancient Testimonies, and Truth will be over the heads of all its Op­posers.

Co. Fr.

And what says G. W.?

Lon. Fr.

Why G. W. is pevish, and does nothing as I hear but revile G. K. and has sent him his Curse.

Co. Fr.

His Curse man! and what will that do?

Lon. Fr.

Do, why it only sets us fur­ther adrift from the Doctrine of Christ, which says, Bless and Curse nor.

Co. Fr.

Has G. K. ever Curs'd any of them?

Lon. Fr.

No, not that ever I heard.

Co. Fr.

Prethee what dost thou think of these things?

Lon. Fr.

I think they do not rightly un­derstand what Truth is; Truth (as W. P. says) never changes, but we are always changing; for how unlike are we to what we were when first a People? I won­der W. P. should say mind your Ancient Testimonies, when he well knows that the Ancienter the Testimonies, the greater [Page 4]were the Imaginations and Errors, wit­ness his Sandy Foundation Shaken: I fear our Friends are too like the blind Phari­sees, which preferr'd their Lamp-light be­fore the Light of the Sun; I confess the Light of the Sun is a true unchangeable Light, but all Lights must give way when he appears.

In the midst of this Discourse steps in one of G. K.'s Friends, and be­gins thus.

FRIENDS,
I Am glad to hear you Discourse thus sensibly; and I beseech you rightly to consider your own Discourse, concerning the Light Within being sufficient to Save without any thing else: Pray let us not borrow other Peoples Eyes and Legs, but see and walk our selves; let us go to the very first of the Creation of God, which answers so exactly to the Second, that it may be called the Looking-glass of the Se­cond Creation, or New Creation. Pray was not the universal Light the First days Work in the Old Creation? So in the New, Was not the Sun, Moon and Stars the Fourth days Work? by which all things revived to such a proportion of Life [Page 5]as to produce Seed in themselves; which could never have been brought to perf [...] ­ction by the First Light, without the Light of the Sun. So, as to the New Creation, There is no Perfection under the Law, untill Christ came who was to be Revealed the Fourth day, i. e. the Fourth Thousand Year of the World; and is that true Son of God by whom we must bring forth Fruit, whose Seed is in it self as it holds in the Natural, the Nature of him abiding in us; for without him we can do nothing.

Lon. Fr.

Prethee Friend what is the be­nefit then of the Light in every Man, or the First days Work, as thou call'st it?

G. K.'s Fr.

You may as well ask me what benefit it is for the Master-builder to lay the Foundation first of his Building before he finisheth it; or if he should go on no further, whether Men would not say this Man hath laid a good Foundation, [the Law or Light in every Man being a good Foundation of Morality,] but why goes he not on to finish it? Either he un­derstands not, or is not able, this is what Men usually say.

But my Friends, The great Builder and Creator did finish the first Work as a Draught of the Second; and be you as­sured [Page 6]that the New Testament Creation as far exceeds that Old, as the Fourth days Work did exceed the First.

Lon. Fr.

What, then I perceive thou thinkest that Friends Dispensation is only the First days Work.

G. K.'s Fr.

Why, verily, as to Friends I cannot give a satisfactory judgment con­cerning them, for I find no where in all the holy Scripture such a People set down there for the People of God, but several hints to the contrary. I must needs say they have ill marks, but I hope it may be attributed to the Ignorance of most of them. We know that in the last times some will have strange Pretensions and Heresies; even denying the Lord that bought them with his most precious Blood; and denying the Resurrection of that holy Body, with its Ascension into Heaven, and that that very Body is now in Heaven, as a Wall of Salvation between us and the Justice of Almighty God, which otherwise would take Vengeance on our daily and hourly offences: For my part, I do admire that any People professing Godliness can pretend to be in the Faith, and not faithfully believe such things.

Lon. Fr.

Dost thou believe that Flesh and Blood can inherit the Kingdom of God?

G. K.'s Fr.
[Page 7]

Yea, The Flesh and Blood of our Lord and Saviour, which was ne­ver born to see Corruption, neither was of any corruptible Seed.

Co. Fr.

Why did Christ say to the Jews, John 6.63. It is the Spirit that quickneth, the Flesh profiteth nothing.

G. K.'s Fr.

Why Friend dost thou think that Christ spake to the Jews of his own Flesh and Blood, which he said he would give for the life of the World; and if that Flesh and Blood did not profit us, what did that gift avail us?

When Christ said to Nicodemus unless a Man be born again, &c. Nicodemus understood that he must be born again of his natural Father and Mother as new Flesh; but Christ plainly told him that that which was born of the Flesh was Flesh, and that that was born of the Spirit was Spirit; and farther said, that the Wind bloweth where it listeth, and that he only heard the sound thereof, but knew not whence it came or whether it went, and so said our Lord is every one that is born of the Spirit: I hope you confess that such a spiritual Birth far ex­ceeds that Flesh and Blood which we take from our Parents, and is polluted with Original Sin: Our Lord might well say [Page 8]that such Flesh and Blood profited no­thing, altho' we make so much ado about it, unless the Spirit blow upon it, and change it from Corruption to Incorrup­tion.

Lon. Fr.

But what did Christ mean by saying, Nicodemus understood not when he spake of natural things?

G. K.'s Fr.

Why, is not the blowing of the Wind natural? and yet who can tell from whence it comes, or whether it goes? How should then natural Men judg of the coming and going of the Spirit? They can possibly tell when it is present and when it is absent; but from whence it comes or whether it goes they know not.

Co. Fr.

Prethee tell me, What dost thou think of the Light in every Man's Conscience?

G. K.'s Fr.

The Light in every Man is, that Blessing which doubtless was given to Japhets Off-spring, the Islands of the Gen­tiles, they not having the benefit of the written Law, leaving the Country where Shem's Stock was, which had the Law in a far more glorious manner than the Gentiles had, as being the Elder Son of Noah, had the first great Blessing of the knowledge of the Law; but the Mercies [Page 9]of God was such, that he left himself not without a Witness in the Gentiles that did accuse or excuse them; which shew'd the Law written in the Heart, and that they did by Nature the things contained in the Law. So that you may see that the Law Outward, and the Law Inward are the same thing as to just and equal do­ing; as for Instance, that passage of Corne­lius; who was said to be a just Man, and one that feared and worshiped God, and in good Works did exceed many that were called Christians; however, all this Man's Righteousness could not save him. But at such a time when greater Light was revea­led, an Angel must be sent to him to tell him that he must send for one Simon Peter, which was to tell him words by which he might be Saved. So here you see plainly that this Man was not to be Saved by the Light Within, without something else, that is, Christ without, and the Faith in Christ, which comes (ordinarily) by outward Preaching; and the Aposte says, that Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God Preach'd. Pray what did Peter Preach to Cornelius? Was it not mostly of Christ's Miracles, of his Death and Resurrection, to which all the Prophets did witness, that thro' his Name was [Page 10]remission of Sin only to be had? And at the very Instant, while the words were speaking did not the Holy Ghost fall on them which heard the Word, to the A­stonishm [...]nt of the Jews that came with Peter? Now, I hope, you see what must be added to that Light before true Salva­tion can be known or enjoyed.

Lon. Fr.

Since we have gone thus far, what think'st thou of Water Baptism and the Supper?

G. K.'s Fr.

If you please you may see what Peter says to those very Persons that had just received the Holy Ghost; Can any man forbid water, that those should not be baptized: and he commanded them to be Baptized in the Name of the Lord, that was, in the Name of Jesus. Now, how your Friends can hide themselves here I know not: Blessed be God for the New Testament, and for the Sound Doctrine contained there; and our Lord said, that those that heard those Sayings of his, and did them, were wise indeed, and built on that Rock which the Gates of Hell should not prevail against: The Lord help us to flee from vain imaginations, which indeed is a sandy and shaken Founda­tion.

Co. Fr.

Well now, if thee pleases, con­cerning the Supper, what hast thou to say for that?

G. K.'s Fr.
[Page 11]

I have this to say for the Lord's Supper: We own that 'tis said, that he that does Believe and is Baptized shall be Saved, his Sins being forgiven and remitted. Pray, is not the Forgiver of our Sins worth our remembrance; since Christ has paid so great a Debt for us as his own Blood: Was such Ingratitude ever heard of since the World began, that a People should forget so great and so good a Lord, as not to remember him in his own Ordination, however simple it may appear, 'tis precious to the little ones of the Kingdom.

Co. Fr.

Why dost thou think we do not remember the Lord Jesus, because we do not receive the Bread and the Wine?

G. K.'s Fr.

I do think that those that break one of the least of Christ's Com­mandments, shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. Pray, if to break one of the least will be such a lessening of our Happiness, what must the breaking of the greatest be, is it seemly for Chil­dren to be wiser in their own Eye, than their Fathers, or Subjects, than their King, or Malefactors than their Judges? yet so it has been sometimes, but for a People to be wiser than their God is mon­strous; had the Lord commanded some [Page 12]great thing, as the Heathen Gods did, that we should Sacrifice our Children to him, than we might have shrunk from it; but such things are far from him, only ha­ving commanded us to remember him, in that which is easily had, and that which is our common Food too, in the eat­ing of that Bread to remember the Lord, how his Body was broken for us, and in drinking of that Cup to remember us, how he shed his precious Blood for us; and likewise to know that he is that living and spiritual Bread, which if a Man feeds on, he shall have everlasting Life. His Flesh being Meat indeed, and his Blood Drink indeed.

Co. Fr.

Well, but if we receive him in Spirit, will not that do?

G. K. Fr.

You cannot receive him, but as he is, both Body and Spirit, that which God hath put together is not to be divid­ed; therefore you must receive him, ei­ther as the Man Christ Jesus, or not at all; that is with a lively Faith to believe and to remember how that Body Suffered for us on the Cross, and is now in Heaven, and left us this Commandment, thus, To remember him until he come in Power and great Glory. Now whether it is better to obey God or Man, judge ye? Our Lord [Page 13]said, Do this in remembrance of me▪ Some Men say it is but a Shadow, and they are come to the Substance: Well, I will ask thee this Question; art thou in thy mor­tal Body able to stand before the Son of God, should he appear to thee, wouldest thou not be Terrified and Astonished, the best of Men ever were so, and believe, me, that the sight of an Angel would do it to the best of you, who is much less in Glory then the Christ of God; and since we are such weak Creatures that we cannot be hold his Glory as he is in that glorified Body, then ought we not to be mighty thankful that he is pleased to condescend thus far to our Weakness, that since we cannot behold him as he is, that he has been pleased to leave us such a Looking-glass wherein we may discern the Lord's Crucified Body, and in that to remember what he has done for us, enough surely to engage us to remember him according to his own Prescription.

I am perswaded had G. F. given any Commandments they had been obeyed: As for Instance; how has he set up many Orders, which he never had from the Holy Scriptures; and do not some Men make the Commandments of our Lord and Sa­viour of none effect, through their own [Page 14]Traditions, Teaching for Doctrin the Commandments of Men.

Our Lord says, Judge not, least thou be judged, but your Friends say, they have Power to Pronounce Plagues and Judg­ments on others, and that when they are dead too, if they pleased not them, say they are gone to the Pit.

Our Lord said, Bless and Curse not, but your Friends doe send their Curses, as G. W. does his to G. K.

Christ bid his Disciples not to Judge those that cast out Devils in his Name, although they followed not them, but said, they that were not against them, were for them.

But your Friends say, all that follow not them are out of the Truth.

Christ says, When you have done all, or the utmost you ought to do, say, that you are but unprofitable Servants; but some of your Friends say plainly they will not say so, for they are profitable Servants.

Christ says, Look unto me all the ends of the Earth and be you saved.

But your Friends say, look to the Light within only, and be you saved, and where in all the Writings do they direct People to the Lord Jesus without them, as the Object of their Faith for Justification [Page 15]and Redemption? Do they not always say, Friends mind that of God in your own Hearts, not saying one word of the necessity of Faith in the Crucified Jesus, or of his Resurrection or Ascension into Heaven: I have often heard them say, that Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, making no difference between the Flesh of Christ, which was not born of corruptible Seed, and their own corruptible Flesh, which must see Corrupti­on. Christ said in his last Prayer, Father I will that they that thou hast given me may be with me where I am, that they may be­hold my glory: And if the Glory of Christ be no where to be seen but in every Man; Pray what Glory is seen there of Christ? may they not all say, Lord have mercy upon us miserable Sinners, that ra­ther darkens his Glory than exalts it.

G. K.'s Fr.

Pray what makes some of your Friends, when they hear of Christ's being at the right Hand of God in Hea­ven, to say, what would you have us believe in two Christ's? We own to o­ther Christ than what is within us, or any other Heaven than what is within us, or any other Resurrection but what is with­in us. Is not all this very fine Doctrin? Pray then if this be true, whether must all [Page 16]our Spirits go when we dye? What, must all go into the Quakers for Rest and Peace? For if they will own neither God or Christ, or Heaven or Hell, but what is in them, what shall I say? This is like the rest of their Contradictions, both a­gainst Scripture and right Reason.

Pray where had your Women their Commision, for their assuming Church Government, other then from G. F. The Apostle forbids it in several places, but some of them to my knowledge have said, that they are farther Englightened than they were in the Apostles Days; if they could make that out, it were some­thing for them, but I say as the Apostle Paul said, that if he or an Angel from Heaven did Preach any other Gospel than what was Preached by Christ and his A­postles, let him be accursed. My Friends, 'tis a dangerous thing to bring in new Doctrin, I do believe the Scripture was given for Doctrin, for Reproof, for Cor­rection, that the Man of God may be made perfect, and all they that Preach according to that Rule; Peace on them, and all the Israel of God, and all they that Preach not according to that Rule, it is because their is no Light in them.

London, Printed for the Author, And are to be Sold by B. Aylmer at the three Pidgeons over against the Royal-Exchange, Cornhil, 1699.

This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Text Creation Partnership. Searching, reading, printing, or downloading EEBO-TCP texts is reserved for the authorized users of these project partner institutions. Permission must be granted for subsequent distribution, in print or electronically, of this EEBO-TCP Phase II text, in whole or in part.