WEll over-taken sir, how farre (if I may be so [...]old) doe you travell this way.

I am going to the head Quarters at Nottingham.

Then it seems you are a Souldier.

I am so indeed.

I doe confesse that you Souldiers have done the Kingdome very good service, but you have likewise done very ill service, therefore wee must (as our Brother Love layes) reward you for the good service, and punish you for your evill service.

Sir, I pray you answer me two questions; First, I pray sir, what are you? Secondly, what is the evill we Souldiers have done, that so we may know wherefore we are punished? for we are not conscious to our selves, of any evill service we have done to the State; onely we have some among us that are vile enough, but we doe what we can to reclaime them.

Sir, to your questions I answer, and to your first, I am a Mi­nister of Christ; and to your second, I answer, it is not because you have some vile persons among you, for that will be, in any Army, there­fore [Page 2]that doth not trouble us; but the evill for which you are to be pu­rished, is, that you have sowed the seeds of error, in all the parts of the Kingdome where you have come.

You lay you are a Minister of Christ, and for ought I yet know, it may be so; for I have not as yet had any great ac­quaintance with you; but whereas you say It is not our vile per­sons in the Army, which troulde you, but our sowing the seeds of error, that you doe intend to punish us for, this makes me doubt, whe­ther you are the Minister of Christ, or no: for I did never heare any of the Ministers of Christ, lay that to our charge; but I have heand them blesse God for us, they well knowing, that we have not onely done faithfull service to the state, in the field, but also have been intraments in the Lords hand, of inlightning many people in the Land; who also blesse the Lord for us.

This you say, but it is not so because you s [...] it.

I can produce many witnesses, to confirme the truth of what I say, but if I could not, it were as well proved, as you have proved that wee have sown the seeds of error in the Land; and doe for that deserve to be punished.

The thing is agreed on by all the Orthodox Divines of bath Kingdomes.

You speak strangely, as if because they say it, it is there­fore so, but because you would have it passe for a sound proofe; you give them two titles, which are very high, that so the peo­ple may not question it. First, you say they are Orthodox, that so none need question the soundnesse of their judgements; and Secondly, you call them Divines, that so the people may look upon them as Little gods, or somewhat more then men, as they indeed have done, but to tell you my thoughts, I count it little better, then one of the names of Blaspbemie, which are on the Beast, Revel. 17.3. and ought not to be given to any mortall crea­ture. And if it might be attributed to any, then to all the people of God, for, they all partake of the Divine nature, 2 Per. 1.4, and are, or at least ought all to have a Divine imployment, (if it may be so called) viz. to search and study the Scriptures.

Then it seems that you would have all to preach?

I confesse, I would have it so indeed, but I pray sir, what doe you understand preaching to be?

I doe understand preaching, to be the taking some part of Scripture, and unfolding of the sense, and applying it to the people for their edifying.

Then by preaching you doe not mean so to preach, at the Apostles did, by an immediate inspirations.

No.

Then I suppose all men may preach so, viz. Read the Scriptures, and compare them together, and apply them as they shall be inabled, for their mutuall edification, exhortation and comfort.

No, they may not.

Why, I pray you?

For many reasons; at first, they are not learned: second­ly, they are not called: thirdly, if they should, it would bring the prea­ching of Ministers into contempt: for if every Souldier and Trades­man, should preach, and that for mothing, men will not care whether they heare us or no; therefore we have got an Ordinance to prohibit it, and desire a penalty worse then death annexed, to be insticted upon those that shall yet undertake to doe it.

These are notable reasons indeed; but let us a little examine them, whether they will hold or no: First you say, they want learning, if by Learning you mean those visible gifts, of tongues, miracles, healing &c. you are as unlearned as they: if you meane by learning, the teachings of the spirit, they are so taught also; but if you mean by learning, the art of tongues, and the Art of Astronomy, or Astro [...]gie, or any of the other Arts, learned and taught in the Schooles; then I confesse they core short of you in Learning: but I conceive, that these in them­selves conduce but little to inable a man to Preach.

No, what say you to the gift: of Tongues?

I say it were well if you had it.

Why, have wee it not?

No.

Can we not speck divers Tongues?

Yes, by art, but not by gift.

What is the difference?

Very much for first; those that had the gift of tongues spake as the spirit taught them immediately: Act. 2.4. but you speak as men have taught you in the Schooles: Secondly, those [Page 4]that spake by the gift of tongues, could speak to all Nations un­der heaven if there were occasion Act. 2.8.9, 10, 11. but if there should be never so much need to speak to drvers Nations, you could speak to no more of them, than those whose speech you had learned in the Schooles: Thirdly; these that spake by the gift of tongues spake the cleare minde of God, in the seve­rall tongues, without pervertang either the one, or the other; but you (as I my selfe have heard) differ among your selves; one sayes it is thus in the Originall, and another sayes it is not so: wherein then, doe those which you say may not preach, come short of you in that learning which makes us spiritually know the minde of God in the Scriptures?

They know not the originall.

I think no more doe you, for I suppose you will grant, that there are at least sixteen severall Greek Copies; which then is the Originall?

What though that cannot be so clearly determined, yet it is sure those that know the tongues, and have learning, are better able to understand the minde of God in the Scriptures, then those that have not learning: and so are more fit to preach.

It is according as they are taught by the Spirit; for if those which you call unlearned, be more learned by the Spirit then they, (though they want the other learning) are most able to understand, and therefore most able to make known, the minde of God to others: and let me tell you, that I think there are as many ignorant men, among those you call Learned, as there is of any one sort of men again in the Kingdome, if you compare number with number, so that I may safely conclude, that those that are taught by the Spirit, whether they be learned or not learned (in you sense) are the most fit, and able to de­clare the minde of God: and I will prove it by the Scripture, Peter and John, were unlearned, Act. 4.13. Yet able men being thus taught; and I think it will not be denyed, but among those five thousand that were, scattered abroad, Act. 8.1. there were unlearned men, yet they went every where preaching the word, ver 4. and God did wonderfully blesse their preaching so that a great number beleeved, and turned to the Lord thereby, Act. 11.21 Like­wise Stephen was one that for ought we can read, had no learn­ing, [Page 5]but being full of the holy spirit, preached mightily, in­somuch that all his adversaries were not able to resist the spirit by which bee spake. Act. 6.10.

But Stephen was chosen into an office.

But it was only an office to feed the poor, not to preach.

But Stephen did not preach, be did but dispute.

The one is but to declare the minde of God, and so is the other; and I know no great difference, unlesse you think the one is a more intrenching upon your prerogative then the other.

But Paul was a man that was learned.

I confesse he was, but you can hardly find another among all the Disciples of Christ; and I doe not well know what good it did him neither: for he made no use of it, in preaching the Gospel.

How doe you know that?

Hee sayes so himselfe, 1 Cor. 2.1, 2, 3, 4 5, 6. You see hee disclaimes all the the wisdome of men, and that which is taught by men, when he came to preach the Gospell.

But doth not Peter say that unlearned ones wrest the Scriptures to their owne destruction?

It is true, but if hee had ment such unlearned ones, as are unlearned in your sence, it had been sad newes to those, or at least to most of those, to whom he wrot, who were the Saints scattred here, and there, throughout Pontus, Galatra, Cappadocia Asia, and B thynia: also Peter himselfe and his fellows must have been of those that did wrest the Scriptures to their owne destruction; and as sad would it have beene to the people of God ever since, who cannot bee conceived, to bee one among five hund­red of them learned in humane arts and tongues, but if it had been so, that Peter had ment such unlearned ones, then it would have made your distinction hold, between Clergy, and Layity; for then you onely, would bee the Lords inheritance.

Well for all your prating wee shall have a course taken with you; If you will not give over preaching, and meddle with your own businesse, wee will have you foundly punished.

That is like enough, for many of you schoole-men, [Page 6]have ever been very well read in that kinde of learning, to hunt and weary, and suck the blood, of the harmlesse lambs of Christ; Histories of all ages can witnesse it.

It seems then that you count learning to bee of no use.

Yes, I will tell you of some use that it serves to. As first, that it helps to lift some of you up high above your bre­thren, and procures you great esteem in the world, and greet­ings in the Markets, and the uppermost rooms at feasts; and makes you live an idle life, much unlike those Tent making preachers who laboured night and day, with their owne bands that they might not bee chargable, 1 Thes 2.9. And there is ano­ther use thereof; and that is when any of you fall into an erro­nious way, you can draw more after you, then any men: there­fore it is said of the false Prophets that they should deceive many: Mat. 24.5. And looke upon all the sects that have been broached in the world, and you shall find, that the first broa­chers, and cheife leaders in the same, for the most part, were learned men.

Then it seems you thinke that there is no good use of learning.

Yes, I doe not question but that there is very good use to bee made of it; but Sir, you must beare with me, I for my own part, doe not know that it makes a man ever the more able, to understand the mind of God in the Scriptures much lesse that it is the only thing to make a man a Preacher.

I doe not say it is the only thing, for there must bee that teaching which you speake of, and there must also be an outward call, without which, no man ought to preach.

Sir, I pray you tell me, what you mean by an out­ward call?

It is a setting apart to the Ministry, by laying on the hands of the Presbytery.

What Presbytery doe you mean?

The Ministers.

If this bee the only way of making Ministers, then is the Pope, and the Bishops, as true Ministers as you.

No, they are not, for they are Antichristian.

Then so are you, for you are Ministers, by their setting you apart, and laying their hands upon you, & it is acknowled­ged in the ordinance for making Ministers, to be valid, and you [Page 7]know, that Pope Gregory made Augustin the Monk, Bishop of Doribernia, and he made more Bishops,Pope Gregory sent a Pall to Augustin into England, giv­ing him power to make 12 Bishops, and to the Bishop of York he promi­sed to give a Pall, when Au­stin had ordai­ned him that he might make 12 Bishops so, they grew into many hun­dreds, as it is at this day, Act. & Mon. p. 116.118 and they made more Bishops, and they made more,; and so it passed from hand, to hand, and by your ground, the line of your Ministery must successively come from the Apostles, and I wonder how both ends will hold together, when the middle is taken away: viz. the Popes and Bishops: But because you say, none may preach without this calling, I doe desire a proofe thereof, for I thinke the contrary will be proved; although the calling you speak of were granted to bee right.

I will prove it, no man takes this honour unto himselfe, but hee that is called of God, as was Aaton Heb 5.4.

you have brought Scripture I confesse, but not to your purpose, for it onely intends Aaron, and his successours, the type, and Jesus Christ in the antitype, as the 5. Ver. doth declare, and is not at all intended, of the Ministers of the Gospel.

But there is an equity in it, that bolds to the Ministers of the Gospel.

I grant that the Ministers of the Gospel ought to have a lawfull outward call, which whether that that you plead for bee so or no I question. But I shall prove, that preaching the word, in the sense before specified by you, is not tyed up in the hands of Ministers; but is the worke of every one, that hath learned Christ; as hath in part been proved, and will yet be made more evident. You see in the former quoted place of Acts. 8.4. those that were sca [...]ered abroad were not Ministers in office, for those were not scattered abroad. Ver. 1. Yet they preached every where, up and downe in the Countries, and were instruments of much peoples turning to the Lord, Chap. 11.19.20.21 And when tidings of this came to the Church at Jerusa­lem, they sent Barnabas, but it was not to punish those ancall­ed preachers (as I perceive you should have done) but rather to incourage them; and when bee was came, hee was glad to see the grace of God, accompanying their worke, and instead of telling the people, that they must take heed of such besi [...]odies, as had been among them, or the like; hee exhorted them with purpose of heart they should cleave to the Lord, Ver. 23: hee did well in it, for the text adds, hee was a good man, and full of the holy Spirit, ver. 24.

I grant that those in Act. 8. did preach, but it was in a time of persecution.

Then it seemes by your speeches, that when you have got the power (which you so much labour for) to persecute us, we may preach; but I think, that if it be lawfull in time of per­secution, it is also lawfull in time of peace; for we must not doe the least evill, that the greatest good may come of it.

But that was when there was but few Ministers; so that there was then more need of their preaching, then there is now.

There was never any need of an evill practice, to ac­complish the work of God; and if it had been an evill act, the Apostles would not have sat still at Jerusalem, Act. 8.17 and suffered these men, to have gone preaching, up and down the Countries, but would forth-with have substituted some to be officers to have done it, and forbad the other. But I will give you more Scripture, that so by the mouth of two or three wit­nesses, every word may be established: you may see, in Phil. 1.14. Paul tels the Philipians, that his bonds had caused many of the Brethren in the Lord, to speak the word without fear.

But by your favour sir, he meant the Ministers.

No sir, He did not mean the Ministers, for he sayes, That many of the Brethren in the Lord were imboldned to speak the word without fear: if he had meant the Ministers he could not have said, Many of the Brethren; for there could not be many Ministers at Rome, for we read but of one Church there; so that I suppose there was not above two or three Ministers at the most, for ought that can be gathered.

But I doe beleeve they were Ministers, of whom the Apo­stle spake; this is but your own interpretation.

Then I pray you sir, let us heare your interpretation.

I say they were Ministers; for otherwise the Apostle would have reproved them for Preaching.

That I deny, for the Apostles never forbad any to preach, but she onely that preached by the spirit of the Devill, Act. 16.17, 18. But did rejoyce that Christ was preached, though out of envy, Phil. 1.15.18,

Then you think if the Mayd in Act. 16. had not spake by the spirit of the devill, the Apostle would not have forbad her to preach.

No, why should he?

I thought where I should have you, then it seemes women and all may preach, by your grounds?

Yes, for it is warranted by Scriptures; for I know no difference between preaching, and prophecying; for prophecy­ing is to speak to edification, exhortation, and comfort. 1 Cor. 14.3. and it is cleare that women may prophesie, 1 Cor, 11.5. Where the Apostle saith. Every woman that prayeth or prophesieth, having her head uncovered, dishonoureth her head: so then, she may both pray and prophesie with her head covered. The woman of Sa­maria brought many of her City to beleeve in Corist, by her testi­fy [...] what shee had heard, and learned of Christ, Joh. 4.39. Priscil­la did preach the way of God more perfectly, to him that was a Preacher of it before, Act. 18.26. Paul intreateth his true yoke fellow, to helpe those women, which laboured with him in the Gospel, Phil. 4.3 we see Paul was a man of a gallant, free, self-deny­ing spirit he did rejoyce if Christ was preached, either by men or women; he did not feare the eclipsing of his own glory (he stood more upon the glory of God) notwithstanding he knew some did preach to that end, Phil. 1.16.

Doth not Paul forbid women to preach, 1 Cor. 14 34. Yea, even commands them to keep silence in the Church?

Its true, in the Church he forbids them, but out of the Church he leaves them to their liberty; but in the same Chap­ter he allows all the members except women, to use their gifts, as ver. 1, 24 26.31. The next place of Scripture I shall give you is 1 Pet. 4.10, 11. the words are, As every man hath received the gift, even so let him minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

But the Apostle speaks inverse 9. of Hospitality.

It is true; but ver. 10. he speaks of manifold grace: so that if he did mean outward things, he meant spiritual things also, and ver. 11. he sayes; If any man speak, let him speak as the Oracles of God.

But be meant the Ministers.

If he did, he meant others also, for he bids them mi­nister one to another: and I hope you will not say that Ministers must onely minister to Ministers.

I see you can talke for your self well, but wee shall have you talk some where else, ere long.

Doe I speak any more then the Scripture speakes, I have given you nothing else, but we may see what spirits you are of; that instead of harkning to what the Scriptures speak, you fall to your old threatning speech: I thought to have gi­ven you more Scripture, but if this take place in your spirit no better, there is little hope to convince you by quoting Scrip­ture.

This is a meet vapour, I doe beleeve you have produced all you know of.

Nay, I can give you many more, but because our way doth not lye farre together; I will onely name the places to you, and you may peruse them at your leisore, Heb. 3.13. Chap. 10.24, 25. Mal. 3.16. Revel. 11.3.7. & 19 10.

Well, I will look upon these places when I can attend it.

Nay, I think you are not greatly over-wrought; un­lesse it be in seeking after the best Benifice, or in seeking for a way and power to kill us, for doing our duty.

I deny it to be your duty to Preach.

But I have proved it.

I grant it was their duty, which you instance in; but that was in a time of need; and necessity hath no law.

Sir, if it was duty for them, because it was a time of need, then sure it is our duty now; for I think there was never a time of greater need, for if you should travell as we have done up and down the Country, you might see it: for the people generally know little more of God, and Christ, than those that never heard of him; and have almost none in many places, to inform them better. Now after we have hazzarded our lives, against our professed enemies, and God hath given us them for a prey, we are forced to hazzard them againe, in the discharge of our duty, in a time of such need. But we did not look for such measure at your hands: But I see the old Proverb is true, That a False friend, is worse than an open enemy: for you onely shewed your selves kinde to us, till we had served your turne, viz. to bring under the Episcopall party, that so you might get into your Lordly dignity; and now you indevour our ruine.

Farre he it from us to seek your ruine, we onely seek is reclaime you, from sowing your errors.

I shall make the same answer to you, as once Paul did before Foelix, Act. 24.14. when the persecuting Ministers of the Jews, came with their Oratour. Tertullus, who came to slander Paul before the Governour: That after the way which you call Heresie, so worship we the God of our Fathers. And in­deed, you deale by us as they did by Paul, who after he had been delivered by the marveilous providence of God, from the vio­lence of the wicked conspiring Jewes, by the heathen Cap­taine, they come on againe with a new designe against him, and bring a Tertullus to accuse him to the Governour, of being a pe­stilent fellow, a mover of sedition, and a chiefe maintainer of the Sect of the Nazarites: even so, God having wonderfully delivered us from our enemies, that you see we perish not by them, now you bring your great Orator Tertullus, alias Mr. Edwards, and furnish him from all quarters of the Land, with accusations a­gainst us, as false as that of Tertullus was, that Paul was a pesti­lent seditious fellow, &c. and you your selves say the same thing of us; as that we are pestilent broachers of Heresie, wicked Sectaries, and what not: and from this you would (as you say) reclaime us, and the way you take, is to labour by all meanes to incense the Magistrates against us, if possibly you may prevaile with them, to cut us off from the Land; either by death, or by banishment, or (so it be done) you care not which way: and least the Magistrate should refuse to yeeld to your wicked desire you have another way to help at a dead lift, which is to make your Pulpits ring, with out-cries against us, that so you may image the rude people to set upon us, by some violent assault or other, to destroy us.

But look to it, innocent blood being shed, cries loud in the ears of the Lord, for vengeance against these that shed it: as you may see Gen. 4.10. the voyce of thy brothers blood cryeth unto me from the earth, saith God to Caint. See also Revel. 6.10. and they cryed with a loud voyce saying, how long Lord holy and true, doest thou not judge and avenge our blood. and 16.6. they have shed the blood of the Saints, and thou hast given them blood to drinke, for they are worthy. And Chap. 19.2. The servant of the [Page 12]Lord sing prayses to him, for avenging their blood at the hand of the great Whore: and indeed, blood seldome goeth unpu­nished in this life; as I might give you many instances. see it fulfilled upon Ahab and his house: 2 King. 9.7, 8, 9, 10. Chap. 10. 11. so J [...]u's house Hos. 1.4. Nay you may see how fear­full those Mariners were. Jonch 1.14 Of being guilty of innocent blood; notwithstanding (as it seems) they had all-most every one of them a severall God: and let mee tell you, if you be guilty of our blood, it will be with an aggravation, for wee as instruments have saved your lives, and caused you to sit at home in peace. This consideration prevailed with Soul, as wicked as he was, when Jonathan had said unto him let not the King sinne against his servant, against David, because hee hath not sinned against thee, and because his workes have been very good to thee wards; for he put his life in his hand, and slew the Philistims, and the Lord wrought a great salvation, thou sawest it, and didst rejoyce in it: Wherefore then, wilt thou sin against in­nocent blood, and slay David without a cause 1 Sam. 19.4 5. his an­swer was, as the Lord liveth, hee shall not bee slain. ver. 6.

There is no body goes about to take away your lives, or in any wise to hurt you, if you will bee juled.

Ruled, by whom would you have us be ruled; by God or by you?

By God and by us too, for wee will command you nothing, but what is the minde of God.

But when your prohibitions, come in competition with Gods Commands, wee must mind his commands, and not regard your prohibitions, your selves being Judges.

That I grant, when they doe so.

I have already proved that they doe so; and your selves prove it: for you say none shall preach, but those that you ap­point, and God, hee commands all his people to assemble to­gether, and not forsake the assembling of their selves together; but exhort one another daily, while it is called to day: And tells us the danger of neglecting it; least, (saith the Apostle) any of you should bee hardned, by the deceitfullnesse of sin. Heb. 10.24.25. and Chap. 3.13.

Who will hinder you, but that you may exhort one another?

Will not you?

No, why should wee?

Why should you? truly I know no reason why you should.

No more doe I, but you cannot content your selves with exhorting one another, but you must be preaching one to another.

Can you distinguish between preaching, and ex­horting, taking preaching according to the definition your selfe gave of preaching, in the beginning of our discourse?

Yes, I can, for you may exhort your friend as you meet him occasionally; but when you preach, you meet together on purpose to that end?

You must grant both, or else (as much as in you lies) you hinder us of doing our duty, which God enjoynes us; which is to assemble our selves together; as I have already proved, Heb. 10.25.

Then we shall have you meet by hundreds together?

The more the merrier; if it be lawfull, and it be the duty of two to meet together, to exhort, and stir up one ano­ther to love and good workes, then it is as lawfull, and the duty often, and so of twenty, and so of a hundred, if so many can be found, but alas, there is in many Countries hardly halfe so ma­ny to be found in a whole Countrey that looke after Religion any otherwise, then the custome of the place is, and the fashion of the time; be it what it will be, neither have they any means of further light, having none to preach to them, in ten, nay in twenty miles about, and yet you will be like those to whom Christ pronounceth woe. Matth. 23.13. You shut up the kingdome of heaven: you will not goe abroad to preach to them your selves, nor suffer those that would; and so much as in you is, you hinder the salvation of men, whose perishing will (in part) therefore be upon your account, therefore let me give you one exhortation, Repent betime of this into erable wickednesse, if peradventure, the thoughts of your hearts may be forgiven you: tell the people, you have beene enemies to their soules and bodies, but you will be so no more: bid the people of God be constant and frequent in meeting together as their duty bindes them: labour to incourage them so [Page 14]much the more, by how much you have laboured to discourage them; so shal you approve your selves to be of Sauls (that out of zeale, have persecuted the people of God) to become Pauls, such as rejoyce, that Christ is held out every manner of way yea though it be by Mecanicks, whom you now so much despise.

If we should doe so, then we make every mecanick equall without selves; and so as I said at the first, our Ministery will bee slighted.

You know that the Ministers of Christ must deny them­selves, in all selfe-ends; You are not to minister for your selves, but for Christ, and if it tend to the honour of Christ, and the furtherance of his Kingdome, it ought to be your joy, as it was Pauls, Phil. 1.14.

But we must live of our Ministery, and if you be suffered to preach, our hearers will follow after you, because you preach for no­thing: and if they begin to see that they can have preaching for nothing, they will hold us short enough, in our means.

All this is but carnall reasoning; if you will or dare trust God with your condition, he will surely provide for you; you using a lawfull meanes, viz. using some lawfull way or calling, to supply your selves; that so with the Apostle, you may make the Gospel without charge; you see his care was such, 2 Thess. 3.8. Neither tooke we bread of any man for nought (saith he) but wee wrought with labour and travell, night and day, that we might not bee chargeable to any of you, 1 Cor. 9.18. What is my reward then, ve­rily when I preach the Gospel, I make the Gospel without charge, that I abuse not my power in the Gospel, Acts 20.33, 34. I have covered no mans silver, nor gold, nor apparrell, [...] yee your selves know, that these bands have ministred to my necessities, and to those that were with me: Yet God provided for Paul, notwithstanding he made the Gospel thus without charge.

Then you thinke we should doe as the Apostle did?

If you be the Ministers of Christ why should you not in case of need?

We lave not been brought up to labour with our hands.

The more blame for those that brought you up; but I beleeve it was Pauls case, for be was brought up at the sees of Canaliet; neverthelesse, when the Lord called him to bee a [Page 15]Preacher of the gospell he could say his hands to work.

But wee have worke enough to study.

Why is that? but because you depend to much up­on outward helps, and to little upon the teaching of the spirit.

How doe you know wee depend so much upon the one, and so little upon the other?

Because you must have a time to study; Paul could spend much of his time, in labouring with his hands.

But wee cannot live as Paul did, in such a mean conditi­on, having families to maintaine.

The greater a mans family is, the more need hee hath to take paines; and if that be too little, the spirit of love in the Saints, is not so farre lost; but that they will supply that which is wanting to him, that doth his endeavour.

If wee should have but what people would freely give us, we should bee poore enough.

That is like enough; for you never finde in the scrip­ture, that the Ministers of Christ were very rich in this world. See 2 Cor 6.10. As poore, and yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. And ver. 4. In all things wee approve our selves, as the Ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, is necessities, in distresses, in stripes, in prisons, &c. Yea the great preacher Jesus Christ himselfe had not a place to lay his head. Mat. 8.20. And the Disciple must not be above his Lord: is is enough that hee bee as his Lord is. Mat. 10.24.25. But when mention is made of the Ministers of Antichrist, and Merch­ants of the great Whore; you shall finde them to be very rich Revel. 18.3. Toe Merchants of the earth are waxed rich, through the abundance of her cost [...]sse: and ver. 19. Alas, alas, that great City, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the Sea. So that I must tell you, that where I see a company of Ministers, that rake and scrape, to bee, rich by other mens meanes; and post up and downe for the fattest bemire; and these ex­tort from poore and rich, the [...] of all their labour, charge, and increase, bestowed upon, and springing from their [...] and in ease any bee decayed in their estates, that they can finde nothing to extort, then they doe can them [...], without bade of [...], [...] of [Page 16]Christs Ministers, and where I finde men going from one Be­nifice, to another that is better; it is an argument to me that they are wandering (not fixed) starres: starres being expounded to be Ministers, in Revel. 1.20. compared with Jude 13. And in­deed, to be of those, which the Dragon with his taile cast to the earth, Revel. 12.4. they being so set in pursute of these earthly things.

Well, for all your prating, men must live; is not the La­bourer worthy of his hire?

Yes, and therefore if you be one that is hired to be a Minister, you should take your wag [...]s of those that hire you: and not extort it from others, as many of you doe.

Some will not pay unl [...]sse they be forced.

They be such, I beleeve, as never hired you, and if they did not set you on work, what reason is there that they should pay you your wages?

The Ordinance for due payment of tythes, d [...]th in, oyne all to pay.

I, but I aske what reason it is that those that doe not set you on wot [...], must be forced to pay you your wages?

You were best ask the Parliament, why they made such an Ordinance.

If I should, they might very well tell me, that one re [...]son why they did it, was because they could never be at qui­e [...] for you, till they had made it; as likewise you deale about getting power to suppresse us; unlesse wee can yeeld to your wills in all things.

It is time (I think) to get an Ordinance to suppresse you; for you would suppresse us.

The Ministers of Christ, must not render evill for evill, But wherein doe we goe about to suppresse you?

By desiring that we may be exposea to work, and to have no other allowance, but the good will of the people.

We would have you (if you be the Ministers of Christ) to have all the allowance that the Scripture allowes you; and if you are the Ministers of Christ, I suppose thas will suffice you.

Again, if the Scripture doe not allow you such an allowance as you defire to have, yet we are contented, that those that you can perswade to pay you, may pay you, we shall not presse the [Page 17] Parliament to make an Ordinance against it: but you are al­waies labouring with the Parliament for power to suppresse us; but know this, that we that have so freely adventured our lives in the field for temporall Liberties, will not (seeing God hath given us our lives for a prey) neglect our duties though in the doing of the same we hazzard them againe in a second quarrell.

Then it seemes you intend to fight with us.

Not with Temporall Weapons, but we are resolved to goe on with our duty though in the doing thereof, we fall under your mercilesse cruelty, to the [...]aking away of our [...]ives.

Who indevours the taking away of your lives?

Did not your Brother B [...]field bespeak the Parliament that Timber migh bee taken out of their own houses to make Gib [...]ets to hang those upon that stood in your way; or were contrary to your pretended Reformation? and are not the wish and threatnings a most innumerable, that are of the like consideration? witnesse the many Sermons preached before the Parliament, by Presbyterian Ministers: and the many boo [...]s extant, to that purpose: among which Doctor Bastwicks, Mr. Prynn [...]s, and Mr. Edwardses, may lead the Van: and there is many Brigades of valian, fighting blades, in the rear of them; ready to fall on, pell mell, upon us? had they (shall I say) a word of Command; nay, but of permission from the Parlia­ment for it: which yet I hope they shall never get, for if they should, they would involve the Kingdome (as I said before) in a further guilt of the blood of his innocent people, which surely he will avenge.

None of those you instance in, would have any to be put to death, but those that deferve it.

Yes, they would, for they are not murtherers which they would have put to death.

Yes, but they are, for they murther soules, which is the highest degree of murther, that can be.

I have proved you to be the greatest soule murther­ers that can be, because you indevour to hinder the people of God, from communicating their light one to another; and so by that rule if soule-murtherers should be put to death, you of all men would come under the sentence of it; but those for the [Page 18]most part which you would have sentenced are such who by all means indevour the good of soules and that freely, which you doe not; or No longer p [...]pe, no longer dance, as the Proverb ai [...]s) for you will stay no longer in a place then you can be wel pay­ed, but like those wanering starres Jud speaks of, away you goe to another place, where you can be better p [...]id: yea, and that after you have owned hem to be your flock, and they you to be their Pastour: which if it wer so indeed, you could not doe it, for the Apostle gives change to the Elders of Ephesus, Act 20.28. That they should take heed to the flock of God, over which the Holy Ghest had made them overseers. They were not to leave it for another, and if they should have excused it for want of meanes, he prevents them in that, ver. 35. incouraging them to their duty, by his example, which was, to work with their hands, and by the sayin; of the Lord which was, that it is a more blessed thing to give then to receive so that a true Pastour of a true flock of Christ, cannot leave one to goe to another, upon no pretence whatsoever.

Then we (it seemes) may be fleighted, and abused, and yet we must stay by [...]t, and must not have our flock notwithstanding?

Flock did you say? say never call them a flock, rather call them a Herd, if they will abuse and sleight their Pastour; but it must needs be so, seeing you make all, high and low, rich and poore, Rev. 13.16. bond and free, to receive a mark, to be of your Church, will they, will they, be they good or bad, for there is none so bad, but they are good enough to be of your Church, onely they are not good enough, to partake of all your Ordinances: therefore you will keep away the scandalous and prophane, which labour might be spared, if there were not such in your Church.

Why in the purest Church that ever was, there have been some nought.

I grant there have, but then they crept in at unawares, as Jude speaks, ver. 4. they came in like good men, and so soon as they were discovered to be other wise, they were cast out (or ought to be at least) and it was the Churches sir, if they did not doe it, 1 Cor. 5.1, 2. But there is a wide difference, but ween some proving nanght in a Church & a Church being constituted of such

Why, was our Church constituted of such?

Yes, for in point of constitution it is by succession, and so it is like people, like Priest; for looke how the Popish Priest left the people in Queen Maries dayes, so the Episcopall Mini­sters tooke them in Queen Elizabeths dayes; and looke how they left them when you did cast them out, as unfit to administer any longer, so you tooke the same people into your charge: so it is with the flocks as with the sheepherds, the same ordination which they had in Queene Maries dayes to make the Papall Priests, the same served in Queen Elizabeths dayes, to make the Episcopall; and the same that was for the Episcopall, the same serves now for you that are new moulded Presbyters, as i [...] cleare by the ordinance that is for the making of Ministers, which sayes, that that ordination was valid: so that all the Re­formation so much talked of, consists in altering of words; there being the same matter, and for the most part the same forme, as was in Queen Maries time, both for Church and Ministery: and for the Manistery I confesse it must needs bee so, or else downe falls succession; and for the people, it must needs be so, for else if none were to be of the Church, but those that could be jud­ged godly, there would want a great deale of the tythes, obla­tions, obventions, &c. because in most (if not in all) places the ungodly are the greatest number; as likewise godly men begin to see that tythes, oblations, are not to be paid by any rule of the Gospell.

Why, are they not to be paid?

Because they were never appointed to bee paid by any, but the people of Israel: nor by them no where, but in the Land of Canaan; nor to any Ministers, but to the tribe of Levit and they had it because the Lord gave them no inheritance among their brethren.

But d [...]t [...] not the Apostle say, that those that preach the Gospel sh [...]d [...] live of the Gospel?

Yes, therefore hot live of the Law as did Priests and Levites.

What then doe you thinke it is, to live of the Gospell?

It is for those that are in the fellowship of the Gospell, to supply their Ministers in those things they stand in need of, they having done their endeavours not be chargeable.

Well, but for all this, I am of the minde we may take tythes.

Then it seems you doe not thinke that you are bound to live of the Gospell, whatsoever you say? and indeed I do not know why you should, unlesse you are Gospel Ministers; and you cannot be Gospel Ministers unlesse the Episcopall and Papall Ministers were Gospel Ministers, as I said before.

I confesse there is much amisse in Church and Ministery, in respect of constitution, but all cannot be reformed in a day?

Reformed: nay if a thing be amisse in the constitution, it is not possible to reforme it, what ever it be: therefore till your Church and Ministery be new from the foundation, and have a new constitution, it can be no more right, then the Church and Ministery in Queen Maries dayes was, which being well considered, me thinks it might somewhat alay the heat of your spirits from burning so furiously, against those that doe some­what differ from you, as touching the Church and Ministery; and that you might not so eagerly desire their tuine, seeing your selves stand upon such a sandy foundation.

Seeke their ruine? God forbid we should seeke the ruine of any.

Well, tell me truly, would not you, and your bre­thren, have those that differ from you in point of Church and Ministery, and worship, to be imprisoned or banished?

I confesse we would not have them live among us to di­sturb us, and seduce our bearers.

I knew this was in your minde as appeares by your dayly preaching and printing, now let your selfe be judge, whe­ther or no, this doth not tend to the ruine of those you would thus deale with; you will suppose you doe your duty in so do­ing, in case you banish them, and if it be your duty so to doe, then it is the duty of every one to doe the like that hath power to doe it: now you must needs grant, that this tends to their unavoidable ruine; for when you have banished them from you, whithersoever they goe, it is the duty of those, among whom they come, to do the like, and so the next to doe the like, and the next, till there be no place for them in the world: and so you make void that text, Matth. 13.30. (were it granted that those [Page 21]you banish are wicked men) which saies, that the wheat and tarts, must both grow together till the harvest. And the har­vest is expounded to bee the end of the world. Ver. 39. So that if those you banish bee tares, Viz. wicked men, you must let them grow in the world tell the end thereof.

But all (wee know) will not banish them, for they doe not regard religion in many countries, so wee know they need not get out of the world.

But by your ground they neglect their duty, and what a shame is it for you, that those which regard not re­ligion, are more mercifull then you, which are the great pre­tended reformers of religion. But consider one thing more; the vilenesse of this practise stayes, not in that which is done to them, but extends it selfe to wives, and children, who (though they be of your owne minde in point of worship) are ruined, and undone, by this means: for the [...]ng Wife, and tender Child, must leave their Father or Husband, or else goe out of the world with them, Oh cruelty not to be paral­lelled! Oh oppression without compaire! Know this assured­ly, the Lord will not alwayes suffer it, see what hee saies of oppression, and oppressors. Prover. 22.22. Rob not the peare, because hee is poore; [...]ither oppresse the as [...]ictea in judgement: for the Lord will defend their cause, and spoile the soule of those that spoile them. Now you both Rob, and make poore, and appresse in judgement, and spoile: First you Rob them in taking from them their just liberties; in banishing, or imprisoning them, they being free borne; and if they were not poore before, you make them poore, by this course; which brings affliction not only to the supposed offenders, but even to those, who in your sence are guiltlesse; as the Presbyterian husband, wife, parents, chil­dren, &c. And thou you oppresse the afflicted in judgement. But the Lord will defend their cause; which is indeed, for their ex­ceeding comfort: but as for you; read your doome, in the next words; he will [...]le the soule of those that spoile them. See also what the Lord hath said, in relation to his poore cap­tivated people, and those cruell tyrants that captivat them. Esa 48.25.26. But thus saith the Lord, even the captivity of the mighty shall [...]e taken away, and the prey of the Tyrant shall by delive­red, [Page 22]for I will contend with them that contend with thee, and I will save thy children: and I will seed them; that spoile thee, with their own fl [...]sh, and they [...]ha [...] bee drungen with th [...]r own blood, as with sweet w [...], and all fl [...]h shall know, that I the Lord am thy Savi­our, and thy R [...]deem [...]r, the Mighty one of Jacob.

What, do [...] you account us Tyrants?

You prove your selves to be so by your practice.

Why there hath none of you, been either imprisoned, or banished as yet.

What is in intention, is all one as if it where in acti­on i [...] the account of Gods and it had been brought forth into ac­tion before this time, had the Parliament but given you power to doe it; as your dayly preaching, and printing doth declare, So that it may be fitly applyed to you, which is said. Mic. 2.1. Woe unto them that unagine iniquity, and worbe wickedresse upon their b [...]dds, when the morning is light they practise it, because their hand hath power.

Well, wee shall teach you to apply Scripture other we yet one o [...] these dayes, if once wee could get some few [...]ubbs out of our way, which wee are in great hopes, wee shall very speedyly, if once the Army w [...]re di [...]banaed, and the King would take the Covenant, and so all the Cavaliers were turned Presbyterians, then wee could single you out as wee pleased.

Truely Sir, now I thinke you have told mee your very heart (at least) as Sampson did to Dal [...]lah; but it may be God will hold you short still, and not suffer you to wreck all your fury upon us; but however, wee are resolved to answer you as the three Noble Jewes did the King, Dan. 3.17.18. Our God whom wee serve is able to deliver use from the hote fiery furnace of your intended persecutions. But if not, bee it knowen unto you, that wee will not serve God after your minde, far­ther then wee can be perswaded in our owne Consciences, of the warrantablenesse thereof; nor decline any duty, which we are perswaded we owe to God; so that you will not get much by your Tyranny; onely what your Fore-Fathers did Viz. to be counted a generation of cruell, bloody persecutours; which in time was their ruine, and will in time bee yours, if you persist in their steps; and that shall assuredly bee made good, in due time, which is spoken in the seventh Psalm, verse [Page 23]11.12.13. God judge [...] the unrighteous; and him that [...] God let [...] turne, he hath [...] his, were [...] bem his [...] ready, he also [...] weapens, for [...] that persecute.

[...] you b [...]d [...] to raile.

I doe not raile, I doe but tell you what the Scrip­ture speaks of such practises, and practisers.

Put those Scriptures are to le [...]pphed to wicked men, and not [...] Ministers of Christ.

Those Scriptures are to be applied to persecutors, and such you are by your [...] grant; therefore [...] swe [...] you as Je [...]us did the J [...]w [...]s Joh 8.39. if (said [...]) yet were [...], ye [...] doe the workes of Ab [...]ah [...]m; to s [...]y [...]l, if you were the Ministers of Christ, you would doe the [...]orkes of the Mini­sters of Corist.

What workes are they?

To fee [...] the fi [...]e which be hath purchased with his owne bl [...]o [...], and not to persecute him in his members, old this [...] the Ministers of Christ.

But truly when Martin marre Priest writ that a Presbyter would be ever times worse then a bish of, for persecuting.

I did not [...] him; yet [...] thinke you are resolved to make it good: so that I may well take up that saying of Stever against you, Act. 7.51, 52. As your fathers did [...] you, which of [...]e-people of God have not your Fathers persecu [...]ed which followed Christ? of whom you are now the betrayers and wurt [...]e­rers; and Ezek. 20.30. are not ye pollu [...]ed after thon anner of your Fathers, and Lake 11.48 Tre [...]y you beare w [...]nesse and allow the needs of your fathers who kille [...] the people of God.

Who doe you [...] by our Fathers [...] you thus speake?

The Bishops, who doe you thinke I should meane else?

I have already denyed that we have any dependance upon the bishops.

And I have already proved, that you have a depen­dance upon them; I hope you will not say, that your [...] of succession reaches, no further then Doctor [...]ou [...], Doctor Bur­ges, or Mr. Walker, &c. and if it doe reach further, then [...]ure [Page 22] [...] [Page 23] [...] [Page 24]the Bishops must needs be th [...] next linck of th [...]e [...]ai [...]e, and therefore I must tell you that I cannot bu t [...]ink, that all such of you w [...]o [...]re inlightned re forsworn, in not and vouring to [...]o [...] our your own way of Ministery: [...]or you have s [...]om to extirpate root and branch, all h [...] depends upon that Hierar­chy, and so the snare which you laid for others, hata can be your selves.

Who did [...]el yasnare for in the Covenant?

For two sorts of men:

First the Bishops, to ge them out of the way, that so you might reigne in their steads.

And secondly, for these honest men whose to sciences would not suffer them to t [...]k it that so you might prevent them from b [...]aring any Office lest they should be impediments to the setting up of your new invented way and Minister, but it is a worse matter to be forsworn, then to be counted unwor­thy to beare an O [...]nce in Church or State.

Why doe you call our way and Ministery new, seeing it is not new?

I confesse it is not new indeed, as I said before; save onely in termes and cire mst [...]nces, for your way and Ministe­ry, is as old as Episcopacy, but you have put it into a new dresse, that so it might not be mis-trusted, to be that old one, which you have caused people to sweare, to extirpate root [...] and branch; but indeed it is the same; but how if people should at la [...] come to know what it is, which they have sworn to ex­tirpate, and so rather then they will be forsworn, they should indevour in their places to root out your Ministery, as some of the brarches of the old stock; then it will not be safe for you, to ur [...] the [...]aking of the covenant, upon any more. But you may rather re [...]o [...]ce hat no more have taken it: for you have e­nough against you already if all that have taken it, did know what they have sworn to doe; and did also make consci­ence, to performe their oath. As for my part, should [...] take it, I should judge my selfe bound to doe all tha [...] ever I could, to exterpate your Ministers; neither should I think my self discharged of my Oath, so long as any appearance of it did re­maine.

Well, you are a very pragmaticall fellow, I am glad I have no further to goe with you, but take this at parting, that it will not be long before wee shall have all such fellows as you [...] withall.

Then it seems you are so full, that you must begin, continue, and conclude, with threats: but as for mee, I will not threaten you, but I will tell you what the Lord saith of per­secutorss Psalm. 7.15, 16. He hath made a pit and digged it, and is fal [...]e in the pit that he made, his mischiefe shall return upon his own head, and his cruelty shall fall upon his own pate; but as for mee, I shall pray that the Lord will deliver you from your evill thoughts, and from all the evill that he hath denounced against persecutors, and let me intreat you, to remember the saying of Christ, Act. 9.5. It is hard for you to kick against the pricks, so Sir, wishing your welfare, I shall take my leave of you.

Farewell Sir.