THomas Lye. Answers returned to these Quaeres by one of those Ministers of the Gospel who in scorn are called Parish-Teachers, &c.

section 1 Ans. The very beginning of this work is ble­mish't with an untruth, for I did not so call them in scorn, but did purposely choose that word, as the which I judged less apt to give them cause of distast. Yet this is a very meet foundation for that which is afterward built upon it, so like they be one to other.

T.L. To be left at the house of T. B. of Ash, who is desi­red in the fear of God seriously to read and meditate on 1 Joh. 2.19. They went out from us, because they were not of us, &c.

section 2 Ans. Yes truly they were of you, so long as (the earthly in them prevailing) they could take Tythes, &c. sprinkle Infants, sing David's Psalms in meter and wanton sounds: but after that the eye of their understandings was opened, and they turned from these Vanities to worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth, then went they out from you indeed, and ceased to be of your number, (being taken into a bet­ter[Page 2]society) even in like sort, and for like cause as just Lot with his family went out of wicked Sodom, then ready to be seised on with Gods fiery vengeance, & wholly to be destroy­ed. And now do they stand as so many witnesses against your false Call, and manifold deceits and evil practices; what they know, what they felt in themselves, the same do they now a­gainst you testifie. Add hereunto this also, That whiles they were of you, they were as so many Lillies among the Thorns for sundry good parts and vertues (which are wanting in you whom they left.)

T.L. Whether those whom God hath competently quali­fied with Ministerial knowledge, 1 Tim. 4.6. and utterance, Col. 4.3. and who are solemnly set apart to the Office of the Mi­nistry with prayer, tasting, and imposition of hands, Acts 4.23. 1 Tim. 4.14. & 5.22. may be justly charged to run when they are not sent?

section 3 Answ. He that is in darkness himself, can badly see how for to turn others to the light; and who knoweth not whi­ther himself doth go, an ill guide will he certainly prove in shewing the way to others. And who knoweth not God, Ipse notip­sum. [himself] how can he well teach others to know him? And yet such are all they that hate their brother; that sin; that are not in the New Covenant; and such (for these cau­ses) are you also, who are called of men both Ministers and Masters; and this is even manifest to the children of light, and shall moreover (in the progress of these Answers, as occasion is offered) be openly shewed and declared. What prayer and fasting had ye when ye were ordained Ministers? and what imposition of hands? was not the prayer made by them whose very prayer was an abomination to the Lord? and the fasting, was it not of them who fast for strife and debate? Also, the hands imposed upon you then, were they of other then a crimson colour, as having been stained with the blood of the Saints and Martyrs of Jesus? But to what purpose cited the Anti-querist all these Scriptures? as though the usurpers of the late devised Ordination were men of the same ac­count, gifts and power, as were the holy Apostles, who were[Page 3]filled with the Holy Ghost, who did and spake as they were thereof moved, who had the gift of tongue; and other mira­cles; these do we know, and own. But what are your Ordai­ners? Or came at any time the voice of the holy spirit to them, saying, Seperate ye me such, or such a one for the work of the Ministry? Also, what gift do they give by their laying on of hands, which is to be stirred up? Is it the spirit of Power, of Love, and of a sound mind? yet such a spirit was recei­ved by, or with the imposition of the Apostles hands, 2 Tim. 1.6,7. see also Acts 8.17. & 19.6 Moreover the gift mentio­ned in the fore-cited 1 Tim. 4 14. was so given Timothy by prophesie, with the laying on of the hands of the Presbyte­rie: Are also your gifts (if any) thus received? Is the Spi­rit of Prophesie assisting, or conversant in your feat of Or­dination? Do your Elders at any time declare the truth of their Office and Calling by healing of the sick? Iam. 4. And yet was this gift and faculty annexed, or incident to the Office of El­ders, who such were truly, and indeed. Now seeing these things are not so with them, with what kind of impudence then, or rather blasphemous arrogance do they yet assume and challenge to themselves the Name, when they have in no wise the thing it self? but do lack not only all these causes that did concur to the due creation thereof, but also all those vertues, gifts, and faculties that did accompany and shew themselvs in the right administration or exercise of the same; wherefore your Ordainers be like to certain Impostors that profess indeed the true Art of Physick, but cannot give a proof thereof by healing any one disease. Away then with this fasting, praying, hand-laying Ordination, which was never yet followed nor attested by a miracle, or any other visible ef­fect; tis no better then that Mat. 21.19. fig-tree that bare indeed leaves, but no fruit at all.

Shortly after he mustereth up a number of things, and calls them, Doctrines by your Party a [...]erted; to which I forbear to answer▪ he having not respectively cited the Books and pages where they might be found: In the mean time it may not seem good proof that such or such a thing is [Page 4]truth, because so saith Thomas Lye. Neither ought it to be charged on our friends for error or blasphemie if they some­times mistake the meaning of words, they being in this be­half unlearned, as also most of Christs Disciples and Mini­sters were, whiles the learned Rabbles and Priests were bitter opposers and persecutors both of him and them.

section 5 T L. Whether those godly Priests and Prophets that lived by a standing-maintenance, are those that are accused by Micah 3.11. to teach for hire, &c.

Answ. Here would ye methinks allude and compare your maintenance to that of the godlie Priests and Prophets of old time: First; Where in all the Old-Testament find you this Epithet [godly] standing so near the word [Priest?] I am sure it's a very rare conjunction. Neither is your implied comparison a vvhit better; theirs, that is, the Priests and Levites, was a voluntarie contribution, and of God himself ordained; your's a forcible exaction, and by humane Law, if any; whereof more hereafter.

section 6 Neither was this Querent vvell advised when he scoffed at She Prophetesses, (as he hath done) it being a part of Joels Prophesies, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, (saith God) and your sons and your daughters shall prophesie, &c. Also, Pris­cilla was one of those two that instructed eloquent Apollos in the things of the Gospel; God gave the word, and great was the company of the She-Preachers (as the Hebrew reads it.) Psal. 68.11.

section 7 T. L. Whether Christ hath not ordained, That they that preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel; and that they which sow spiritual things should reap carnal things, 1 Cor. 9.11,13,19.

Answ. To sue men at Law for tithes, to recover trebble damages, to distrain mens goods, and take much more then is claimed, is this to live of the Gospel? Did ever any Priest or Prophet in the times of the Law, or any Apostle or Minister since the Gospel, so live either of the Law or Gospel? Or will ye else grant us, That never any of Christs Ministers (mentioned in the Scriptures) did live of the Gospel? Is it[Page 5]not much rather to be said, That to live of the Gospel is to live of such Alms and Contribution as men freelie give to Mi­nisters, as such, and that vvithout the awe of any outward co-action, terror of trebble damages, or other peril?

section 8 Obj. We also live of such means as the Magistrate hath freely allotted for our maintenance.

Answ. If indeed the Magistrate (or other) shall give of his own private Goods or Lands to what kind of Preachers soever for their livelihood, I have nothing here to gain-say: But if he shall give them that which is another man's, with­out his consent, to keep them in idleness, I see not how this can be justified by the Scriptures, or by any sound reason. This also were repugnant to Christs own Otdinance, name­ly, That they which preach the Gospel, should live of the Gospel; and to live of the Gospel is not to live of any inforced main­tenance, as above is shewn; neither can you produce any one such Ordinance of Christ, that the Magistrate ought to take such course for the livelihood of his Ministers. Now the Or­dinance above intreated, and to which the Scripture cited in the Quaery hath reference, we find in Luk. 10.7,8. And in the same house remain eating and drinking such things as they give, for the labourer is worthy of his hire: And into whatsoever City ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you. From whence I note these things: 1. That the Apostles were to eat such things only as were freely ministred to them. 2. By them who should receive them. 3. Of their meat, who having a private and proper right therein, should so give, or cause to be given: Now whether the men of your qualitie do live after this manner and rule, let all sober men be Jud­ges. And albeit it were true that you sowed indeed to your hearers spiritual things, yet should you not therefore reap their carnal by force, muchless take them being reaped. Now what kind of Seed it is you sowe, doth by the Fruit ap­pear.

section 9 Obj. But if we have nothing allowed for our maintenance, but must depend of the charity of our hearers, soon may we either beg or starve.

[Page 6]Ans. Wherefore if God so cloth the grasse of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the Oven, shall he not much more clothe you? O ye of little faith! Therefore take no thought, say­ing, What shall we eat, or what shall we drink, or wherewith shall we be clothed, for after all these things do the Gentiles (or Hea­then) seek Matth. 6.30,31,32,33. Now if so great be Gods care of ordinary Christians, how much more shall he provide for his Ministers, who are as it were his Embassadors, and have specially addicted themselves to his service? Are you his choice Darlings unto bliss eternal, and wil not yet trust him vvith your bodies? Are you his Labourers, and vvill not yet relie on him for your Wages, no, not though you have his own word for it, and solemn Engagement? What greater infidelity then this hath any of the Gentiles ever bewrayed? Neither can you avoid the Edge of this Sword by saying, Your petitioning the Magistrate, indenting with the people for maintenance, &c. is no distrusting of God for your live­lihood; forasmuch as the provision God makes (& hath made) for his Ministers Livelihood is by inclining mens hearts to supply their necessities, and that out of their own private goods, and not out of other mens, as elsewhere I have said.

section 10 T.L. Then do men preach for hire when they make hire their chiefest end, &c.

Answ. Yea; and if they make hire any end at all, do they truly preach for hire; Neither are we justlie charged to in­trench on Gods prerogative in that we do judg you to preach for hire; for certes that can be no part of Gods Secrets which is manifest to all men: By your fruits are you known; Your suing to the Magistrate or Patrons for the gift of the Benefice; your requiring of, and contracting with those that would have you, for great yearly sums; and all this before you settle any where to preach; also your late device of uniting of BENEFICES, but especially your remo­vings from place to place, even out of New-England and Scotland hither, for sake of a better call, and a lowder; that is to say, of a greater revenue; I say, all these things fully inform us what is the end of your preaching, that we need [Page 7]not to pry into your hearts to know that which is so openly written in your fore-heads for every man to read.

section 11 T. L. Whether the Scripture-saying concerning them that preach the Gospel, That he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth should he made partaker of his hope, 1 Cor. 9,10 doth not allow some respect to a maintenance for prea­ching the Gospel.

Answ. Your plowing and your threshing are of one consi­deration vvith your sowing abovesaid? And plainly, this place is not intended of any violent maintenance, nor yet of a State or Publike Exhibition for Ministers, as such, which is the thing vve oppose. And yet here would I not be thus understood, as if I vvere against a competent Livelihood to be allowed out of the Publique even unto all men that be in vvant; this in the mean time not omitted, That idle persons vvho are a­ble to vvork, be compelled thereto. But hovv can you be said to plovv or thresh in hope of a Livelihood, vvhen as this is alvvaies the first thing ye make sure of, and get possession of before ye settle to plovv or thresh any vvhere? Now that which is thus possest or assured is no longer capable of being hoped for: So your own Weapon recoils upon you, and wounds you.

section 12 It's very unlikely (what ever Tho. Lye believes to the con­trary) That either the Hireling abides in true Doctrine, (Can an evil Tree bring forth good fruit?) or that he which preaches freely brings the Doctrine that's false; especially, if besides his free preaching hee's sure to undergo for his do­ctrine sake all manner of despight and persecution. The Hireling is the false shepherd, and how can it then be hoped he will feed with Doctrine that is true?.

13 T. L. Whether it be not lawful for the people of God to dedicate part of their Estates for the Worship and Service of God? And whether it be a sin for the Preachers of the Gospel to receive that which is so dedicated? And whether it smell not ranckly of an Ananias and Saphira-like spirit to with-hold that which is so dedicated? Durst you charge us, That though we feed our selves, yet we feed not the Flock?

[Page 8] Ans. Tell us who they were, or are, that thus have dedica­ted part of their Estates, when, where, how, by what mean and instrument, and finally, for what space of time. Then a­gain, demonstrate that you are the men that have right to receive it. If this query relate to any such [supposed] dedi­cation made by our Ancestors in times of Popery, I then op­pose the Authority of a man well known by hear-say, viz. John Wickliff, who in his Complaint to the King and Parlia­ment, (Printed together with other his works, Anno 1608.) Artic. 3. thus saith, Ah Lord Iesus! where this be reason to con­strain the poor people to finde a worldly priest, &c. is pomp and pride, covetise, envy, gluttony, drunkenesse, leachery, in simony and heresie, with fat horse and jolly, &c. Ah Lord Jesu! sith with­in few years men paid their tythes and offerings at their own free-will, &c. where it were lawful and needful that a worldly Priest should destroy this holy and approved custom, constraining men to leave this Freedom, &c. Also Tho. James, where he indu­striously maintaineth the Ministers right to tythes, alledgeth yet no such dedication made by our Ancestors, but is forced therein to flye to the Analogy of Scriptures (as he calls it) where he also confesseth, That the judgement of our Com­mon-Lawyers was, That tyths were not due to any particular Church, before the Council of Lateran, (which was yet a very sandy foundation) but that men might bestow them where they would, Answ. to 6. Obj. of Parsons. In the new Law the paying of the tenth part is by a Law that is made by the Church, that is (by the Bishops, &c.) Lib. de fund. Legum. Angl. But before I pass over Wickliffs testimony, I shall for his greater Authority therein, note to the Reader these par­ticulars: 1. He was a man esteemed to be of great and pro­found learning. 2 Of eminent piety, truth, & honesty. 3. He was himself a priest, & therfore not likely to have been disposed to do or say any thing unjustly against the Commodity either of himself, or the rest of his Order, but rather the contrary, & so is here as a double witness against you. 4 He is acknowledged to have been a man vvell skill'd in the then Lavvs of England, & so its not likely that he err'd through ignorance. And fift­y, he delivered this his to testimony in Complaint to the King [Page 9]& Parliament, to vvhom no doubt he was (as became him) pas­ing careful, & every vvay circumspect, not to offer any thing that might have savor'd of defect, either in knovvledge, or charity; or of any dishonest affection, or private end.

Suitably to this Witness may it also novv be said, that there is no ancient lavv of this Nation, by vvhich the called Ministers are inabled to su for tithes &c in any Court of justice or equi­ty that now is (the city of London & liberties therof excepted.)

And what then are they the better, if they have a Law, when they cannot by Law attain the execution and benefit thereof; your suing in the Exchequer is without all direction and countenance of Law; yea it is expresly See Star. An. 32. H. 8. C. 7. & An. 2 Edw. 6. C. 13. against the Law; & also upon most false pretences: As namely, when in your Bills you suggest, that you are disenabled to pay your It may be 20. or 30. s. a yeare.tenths and A smal sum paid at their first coming &c.first fruits, because such or such a one, with-holds from you the tythes &c. when as many times it is but one man against whom you so complain: Many times but a 10, or. 20 s. matter that you sue for; although you have both Glebe and Augmentations besides, to very great va­lues; and the rest of your Tythes be quietly paid you: (if so I may use this word, where a thing is not due.)

Furthermore I demand by what good-right, or way of conveyance, could our Ancestors give away the Lambs that should come of our sheep; the wool that should grow on our flocks: our apples and such like things, which never were theirs to give, nor then were not yet in being; neither were they capable of so much as being certainly known, whether as to their kindes or quantities. Again, its in the choice of the owner of the land, whether he will manure & occupy it, or not: If he will not, then are there no Tythes payable for, or out of it, which is a point considerable: For now, were it granted indeed to have been in our Ancest­ors power to break, and transmit into posterity, the duty or obligation of paying such Tythes, as are above specified; yet would it notwithstanding remaine in our own power stil wholly to avoid all effect thereof; and this without being lyable to be punished or questioned by the Clergy. Moreover, it is to be marked that our fore-fathers who were Papists did[Page 10]little intend, when they gave their Tythes, that they should go and redound to the maintenance, much lesse the luxu­ry of Protestant Ministers (so called) vvho vvith such cruel hatred and detestation they persecuted even to bitter deaths and torments: And one of our great & ancient Lavvs saith; Let the will of the giver be observed.

But if the Querent respect to latter times; neither here do I knovv of any effectual Lavv yet inforce for payment of Tythes. As for the late Ordinances of Parliament tending hereto; its true, that they vvere able to make a great noise, siting the Parliament: But vvhen once the Parliament vvas dissolved, they could not novv longer lavvfully be dischar­ged. So you see you are disovvn'd both by Lavv and Gospel, (so called) as to your pretence about Tythes: vvhether vvill ye next go, ye vvandring stars; whether will ye fly, ye Clouds without vvater.

Now as concerning withholding of Tythes from parish Mi­nisters, the forecited Iohn Wicklife seemeth not to have smelt any such Ananias and Saphira like spirit in them that should so do: For thus he reasoneth in his complaint aforecited: Therefore if our Prelates or other Priests whatever they be, Blemisht.blecked by sacrifice of Maumetry, as with covetise, that is, openly sacrifice of false Gods, and other great sins, as pride, Simony, Manquelling, Glotany, Drunkennesse and Lechery, by the same skill (i.e. Reason) Tythes and offerings should be withdrawn from them by Gods Law and be given to poor needy men at ensample of rightful Toby: and therefore it is lawful to Parishioners to withhold their Tythes for open fornication of the Curate, and turn them into better use: And much more they may & ought to withdraw their Tythes for great sinns and open; as for Simony, that is Heresy (as Popes Law saith;) and for covetousness, that is, worshiping of Gods, as holy writ saith, and for Pride, envy, and Gluttony and drunkenness, sith by Gods Law and mans Law God curseth such mens blessings and prayers. And a little after; the first, if Curates do not their office in word and in ensample that God commandeth, then their subjects (i.e. [Page 11]their Parishioners) are not bound to pay them Tythes and offerings; since the principal cause for which Tythes and of­frings should be paid is wanting, the paying of Tythes should cease. Moreover in the same Article he thus determineth: But suppose that such Parish Churches (i.e. Benefices) were Lawfully gotten; yet sith they be superfluous to such men, the Tythes and offrings should be given to poor needy men; as St. Ierom and the Popes Law teacheth. It seemes, the Pope himselfe here to have been more modest, and sober, then to pronounce so black a Iudgement (as you in effect have done) against them that with-hold their Tythes from the Parish Curates, or Ministers; for he alloweth the Parishi­oners, when the Curate, or Priest, hath superfluity of live­ings, to bestow their Tythes to other uses; and this without purpose of ensnaring them in the guilt of an Ananias and Saphira-like sin; (or casting them into prison.)

Concerning Moses respect to the recompence of reward; I say that between your respect and his is a very great diffe­rence: His was to that which was eternal; yours to that which is temporal: His was to Heavenly glory; yours to filthy lucre: Neither is it to be thought, that Christ would have stiled the false shepheard, an Hireling, if his respect had been only to the recompence of eternal life (as Moses's was) and not chiefly to the Tythe of Lamb and Wool, &c. (as yours is.)

14 T. L. whether those whom Iude condemns for runing greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, were not the same with those that perished in the gain-saying of Corah? whose provoaking sin was, as some of yours is, an oppositi­on of and rising up against authority in Church and State.

An. If the querent had told us who this same were, that so rise up against authority &c. He had done us some kind­nesse; for such do we mark, and avoid. Now who they be, and of what colour that are opposers of Authority in State, may easily bee knowne: Read but King Iames's the second Epit.BA­SILICON DORON, Doctor BAYLY'S [Page 12]History of Iohn Calvin; but especialy the relation of Christo­pher Love's Conspiracy; and thou shalt find that there lodgeth in this portion of men, a spirit of pride, stubbornness and rebellion, not much inferior to the Jesuites: Hereunto al­so may be added the In his Di­sp. with Ri­vet.testimony of Hugo Grotius which is (as I remember) to this purpose, viz. There is never any stir or rebellion in the Christian world, but they who be called Mi­nisters of the Gospel, are chief contrivers [or Promo­ters] thereof; Where was your obe­diene to Authority then, when you not only refu­sed to take the Enga­gement, but preach­ed aginst it, then you refused to ob­serve days of publike Thanks­giving & Humilia­tion? And this well know all Christian Princes. And that he did not here exclude the men of your Judge­ment, may easily appeare, if we but consider the man with whom he hath there to do, and to whose reproach he spake it. Now as to them that be called quakers, where and what opposition do they make against Authority, both in Church and State? Is not this indeed Nero-like, who burnt the Ci­ty of Rome, and then laid the blame upon the Christians? Name (if you can) one man of our way, that hath done any wrong to others. Contrariwise, what kind of harme, and injury have they not received from others, especialy from the men of your Function? yet when did they render evil for evil; when did your cruelty overcome their pati­ence? Thrusting, Beating, Haleing, and almost death it selfe do they many times endure at your hearers hands and fists; and that before your very faces, and even in your Solemn Assemblies: yet who of them made ever any resistance in such case? or did open his lips so much to revile? And is not both this a right Christian spirit, and that such a one as the Devil himselfe would be abasht to defend? But wherin do some of ours make opposition or rise up against Authori­ty &c.? Do they not ever come, when the Magistrate sends for them? and go when he bids them go? or all the while they are before him (or elsewhere) do they do him a­ny harme in Body, Goods, or Name? Did they ever break prison, or escape out of Custody? And for all those inju­ries they received & suffered at the Magistrates hands (which for multitude cannot be numbered) did they ever so much as seek for satisfaction or amends against him? Now name [Page 13]ye unto us on the other hand, of all your Party one only man (if you can) whom ye may dare to match and parallel with these men for true Christian meekness and patience, so bearing all kind of wrongs, and as touching the Magistrate and Authority for very friendliness and exact obedience: These of all men else in the world can better take wrong then give it: Matth. 18.22. These are they alone that can forgive their brothers offences, though again and again repeated, though even unto seventy, times seven, they do at length amount. In these finally, now after long death and utter oblivion, is the true Christian spirit and perfect mind revived again, and unto mankind restored. No marvel is it then if they hear like slanders and reproaches, and the same entertainment do find and [...]eel with the men of the world, as also their Lord and Example, Christ Jesus, did before them; He before them was accused to have a Devil, to break and subvert the Law and Religion; to have spoken blasphemy, and many like crimes and misdemeanors to be guilty of: And the servant is not a­bove his Lord, neither must the Disciple expect to fare bet­ter then his Master did before him: But it's like you intend their not putting off the hat, and refusing to swear, to be this opposition and rising up against Authority, &c. if so, then it seems by your account, that Mordecai also (a far bet­ter Jew than any or your Sect are Christians) was guilty of like opposition and rising up against Authority, for that he in like sort refused to bow to, or to rise before, or to do any reverence at all to Haman, the next man in dignity & degree to the King, who also had commanded Mordecai that he should reverence Haman, and that under such a penalty as threatned death to no fewer then to all the Jews in his King­dom. But I ask, What is Authority the worse, or how is it more empaired by a mans keeping on his Hat before the Ma­gistrate, then if he should put it off? Suppose that no man at all would put off his Hat to another, shew us now what mischief or harm would by this means befall Authority, es­pecially if they were in all things else equally obedient and conformable to Authority, as are the people called Quakers. [Page 14]Again, what is Authority the worse if men will not swear at all? Can civil Authority at no hand subsist without mens yeilding obedience to the pride of man, and disobeying the Law of God? Now so confident I am of our cause, that to your own very conscience I appeal to say who they be that oppose and rise up against Authority both in Church and State, whether your [...]riends or ours: Yours at mid-day, and in open place doubt not to strike, kick, pull, hale, drag and imprison men of rare innocency and of excellent vertues, that unto them had done no violence; that do not provoke them so much by any unseemly word or gesture; that being harmed of them, do no harm to them again; finally, that ex­pose themselves also both unto all these, & yet farther suffer­ings for their souls good, who thus misuse them: And all these things have your friends doue, without either Judge, Witness, or so much as Accuser. Tell me now what is this to be deem'd but a kind of Rebellion, and broad-fac't Contempt against the Laws of this Nation, and the Magistrate thereof? But what had these sufferers done? even this, Something being revealed to them from the Lord, they spake the same in all soberness, he that first spake having ended his speech, and this in obedience to the Lord, and according to the Scriptures, 1 Cor. 14.29 30,31. And again, are not they the very men that oppose Authority in Christs Church, who break his Laws and Commandments daylie? who drink down iniquity as an Ox drinketh water, and glory in their shame? and such be most of your friends and followers: Are these men like to be such great friends unto, and supporters of the Churches Authority? Indeed, without these your Synagogues cannot stand.

T.L. Where are those warlike preparations? where those conspiracies for devouring of them that differ from us in Religion?

Ans. Read but the Relations of the late Wars in Scotland, and specially of Christopher [...]oves [...]onspiracy, and there shalt thou find where the warlike preparations were: Read also the Law, or Bill, made and contrived by the Assembly of Di­vines,[Page 15]so called, and by rhem recommended to the Parlia­ment, and there wilt thou find the conspiracies for devouring of them that differ from you in Religion: Moreover what may we term those many Petitions that by the men of your order were not long ago sent to the Parliament? surely the aim and intent thereof was for devouring more persons than only James Nayler and his Adherents; let the effects there­of be witness: Look also on the children that since are born, and deny (if thou mayest) That a Priest was their Fa­ther? Who can it doubt that shall have once viewed and no­ted well their faces? So full of black lines they be, and signa­tures of malice; verily their sullen and mischievous counte­nance will not bear to be guessed that they came and took nature of other blood then which runs in your very veins: Pilate indeed condemned Christ, but 'twere the Priesthood that laid the plot aforehand: These, these were the men that not only as Authors, did devise shape, and prescribe to others the means, method, and order of betraying and killing Christ, but also as Actors themselves they did, and executed many things against him: These ministred as it were to the Ship, in which was imbarqued this so nefarious design, both Wind for the motion, and Art and Counsel for the steerage thereof and conduct. Be they any whit better now, who bear the same Name: Oh how much worse! Those, that is to say, the Jewish Priests, had for their proceedings the countenance of a Law; these do all things [herein]i.e. In­strument of Go­vernment. contrary to the Law. Those killed not Jesus till above thirty years old; these would have stifled him in the Womb. Those in one body of flesh only; these in thousands. Those, for putting end to, and crossing their way of Worship; these for very practising and being what themselves profess and pretend to be: In sum; Those, though they were the worst of all Jews, seem yet to have been much better then they who would be counted the very best of Christians.

[Page 16] section 16 T. L. Whether it be a sin to endeavor to take the Foxes that spoil the Vines? Cant. 2.15, &c. Ans. If all such Foxes were taken and kept in restraint, how many of you Teach­ers would then be at liberty? The Grapes of Christs Vines are love, joy, peace, long-suffering, goodness, faith, meek­ness, temperance, Gal. 4.12. Now where are the Foxes among us that spoile such Grapes as these? On the other hand, What Congregation is there of yours in which are not plen­tiful Litters of such Beasts to be found, except for their rave­ning nature they be rather to be named Wolves then Foxes.

section 17 And who they be that entice to serve other Gods, wil then be put out of doubt, when as every man shall receive accor­ding to his works; and then shall sad tydings be to them who now for a while are counted and called Ministers of the Gos­pel. We serve that God who is worshipped in spirit and in truth, who is light, who is love; if other God ye serve then this, (for it may seem by your query you worship not ours) it's plain that it is the god of this world, who ruleth in the children of disobedience; and therefore it is that in this world also ye do receive your reward, the kingdoms of the World, and the glory thereof

section 18 Surely the Apostle in Tit. 1.11. 1 Tim 4.1. (in the Query cited) did not mean that mens mouths should be stopt with a hand, or a fist, as the manner is of your disciples to do, with many a shrewd blow, and mischief besides: Neither meant he any outward restraint or force whatsoever; for when were the false Teachers mouths so stopt? it being as it were the lot and portion of false Teachers in all ages to have the earthly powers of their side, and all manner of favour, encou­ragement, and protection from the Magistrate, but they that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution, 2 Tim. 3.2.

section 19 Neither did the Angel in the Church of Ephesus, Rev. 2.2. use any outward violence toward them who said they were Apostles, and were not, &c. (as neither do the people of God to the false Apostles now-a-daies:) But by not bearing, [Page 17]here is meant not owning and acknowledging, &c. for other­wise it's very absurd to imagine that this Angel did beat, whip, stigmatize, pillor, fine, or imprison both the false A­postles here meant, and the rest that were evil, for these also were not born, (as aforesaid) which thing if you Teachers should once put in practise upon all your evil hearers, (and I think you count your selves Angels) how many would you then have left for an audience? And it's plain this Angel was not so much in favour with the secular Powers, that he was able (if never so willing to have effected such penalties on the false Apostles and evil men; the Angels themselves in those times (as now also) being of all other most obnoxious to the wrath and cruelty of the Civil Power, as credible Hi­stories do assure us.

section 20 T. L. Whether it be a sin to hate the Whore, and to eat her flesh, &c. Rev. 17.16. Answ. It is not to be believed you love the Whore so ill as to eat her flesh. Go curb thy lusts, vanquish thy affections, and bring them to submit to the yoke of Christ, and then shalt thou know the Whore here meant, and her flesh; till then thou doest but feed her of thy own flesh, in­stead of eating of hers.

21 T.L. Whether we ought not to oppose Popery, though (Jezzabel-like) it appears under a specious paint.

Ans. Yea; but then ye must be self-opposers: I will not here say what a very eminent man feared not to preach, and that before the Parliament, viz. That Presbyterie was in some respects worse then Popery it self: See Peter Sterry's Sermon preached before the Parl. on occasion of the Victory obtai­ned against the Scots, &c.

section 22 T.L. Because many evil-doers did not turn from their wickedness in the dayes of the Prophets, Christ, and the A­postles, was therefore their Ministry succesless? Isa. 53.3. Joh. 12.38. Rom. 10.16.

Ans. If you Teachers had turn'd from their wickdness so ma­ny evil-doers as those here mentioned in this Quaery, (one of you with one of them compared) I should grant indeed your Ministry not to have bin succesless, but rather of great effect:[Page 18]But now if any man listeth to know the success of your Mi­nistry, and so to judge of this question, let him but come in­to your Meetings, and there let him speak as soberly as he can, or else be silent, with his hat on, & soon shall he discern it may be with danger of life, or limb, what success your Mi­nistry hath, or rather what spirit your hearers be baptizd in­to: Who were they, I pray; & what kind of proof did they give of the Ministerial success, who stir'd up the people, & laid hands on Paul, being in the Temple, crying out, Men of Israel help; This is the man that teacheth all men every where against the peo­ple, and the Law, and this Place; and farther, brought Greeks al­so into the Temple, and hath polluted this Holy Pla [...]e: And all the City was moved, & the people ran together, and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple, &c. And as they went ab [...]ut to kill him, &c. And when they saw the chiefe Captain and Souldiers, they left beating of Paul, &c. Acts 21.27,28, and so along. And yet if (a few Names only changed) this place were re­hearsed any where in England, would any man doubt it to be meant and truly related of your Hearers.

section 23 T.L. Is it not an Argument of matchless pride in you, thus boldly to condemn the whole generation of the just that either have lived, or do yet remain in the Land of the living, for evil doers, and persons not turned from their wicked­ness, &c.

Answ. I never so condemned the generation of the just, as this quaery implies; for my quaery had reference only to your Hearers, whom when you shall have proved to be the genera­tion of the just, I shall then confess your Argument; in the mean time I shall never doubt to account them for a wicked and adul [...]erous generation, so long as I see them with the same ill conditions as had they whom therefore the Scriptures have so termed.

section 24 But unto what purpose have ye mentioned the Noble Mar­tyrs and their fiery Chariots, as though you with them had any affinity or conjunction? Verily you are the children of them who sent those Martyrs in fiery Chariots to Heaven (to use your own words) though you can novv adorn and celebrate [Page 19]their memories as it were with garnished Sepulchres, as did your fore-fathers also, the Scribes and Pharisees towards the holy Prophets, whom yet in other bodies (as it were) they had most cruelly slain: Like as your Ancestors did to those you call godly Martyrs, so do ye now to the Saints of God so far as you have power; and that you extend not your cruelty to death it self, is no thank to you; nor may it be interpreted as the voluntary bound of your malice, as is well known.

section 25 T.L. Shall all those, &c. Ans. The way to heaven is but one. and a very narrow one; it will at no hand receive the vast and spreading Compass of Tithes, Glebe, Augmentations, toge­ther with the love of the world, and lusts of the flesh; these in no wise can be gotten in, the waie's so strait.

section 26 T.L. Whether, supposing that Timothy followed the com­mand of Paul, viz. in meditating on that Word which he was to deliver, &c. as also, in studying in the discharge of his Ministry, &c. he might therefore be justly charged to speak visions of his own heart?

Answ. Timothy vvas an holy man, and holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, 2 Pet. 1.21. Also had Ti­mothy received a gift which was given by Prophesie, with the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery, 1 Tim. 4.14. and the spirit of power, of love, and of a sound mind. Now dare ye say, (even he that is most arrogant among ye) That such a gift, such a spirit as was in Timothy, ye also have received? The Bee can convert into honey such Juices as she gathereth from Flowers: The Spider contrariwise is said to turn the same Juices into poison. Pick out the meaning.

Timothy when he cited the sayings of other holie men, wel knevv vvhat he spake, his understanding and spirit also being sutable and commensurate with the things he said: Neither did his life give his Doctrine the lie.

section 27 T.L. Whether those that so far slight the Majestie of the great God and his Divine Oracles, as upon pretext of imme­diate inspiration, to rush upon them vvithout premeditati­on, &c.

Answ. Suppose ye that they vvho spake as the spirit gave[Page 20]them utterance, Acts 2.4. as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, 2 Pet. 1.21. in whom the Spirit of the Father did speak without their taking thought how or what to speak, Matth. 10.19,20. I say, did all these premeditate what they should say? and yet vvere they not therefore slighters of the Majestie of the great God, and his Divine Oracles, as impiouslie this quae­ry (by consequent) supposeth them to have been.

Or think ye that they who were Christs Embassadors, did by long premeditation & study engender and compose those Messages which as Christs Embassadors they did deliver to others? The Woman that speaketh not without taking thought aforehand what and how to speak, here duty is (not to teach others, but her self) to learn in silence. Go learn what this meaneth.

section 28 To the following quaery, concerning reading, quoting, and making use for edification the Books of the Prophets, Apo­stles, &c. I answer, That he that is duly called to this honor may take it; but unto you, thus saith the Lord, What have ye to do to take my word into your mouths while ye hate to be reform­ed? Or can ye, being evil, speak good things? Or can ye prophesie when the Spirit of the Lord never resteth upon you. It was not for every one to bear the Ark that had a shoulder; neither yet is it lawful to every one to say The Lord liveth, although he have a tongue, and a voluble one too, left he be found a trans­gressor even in speaking that thing which is true, because not commanded, or nor meetly qualified thereunto.

section 29 T. L. Whether these quaeries which you sent us were im­mediately inspired▪ or rather, Whether there were not a conspiracie among you for the inventing and penning of them? &c.

Ans. The Author of those quaeries pretended not himself to be a Minister of the Gospel, but did direct them indeed to such as say they are Ministers, and are not, but are found ly­ars, Rev. 2.2. Neither was there any the least conspiracie a­mong us for inventing and penning those quaeries; neither were they glean'd out of the Papers and Pamphlets of any se­ducing Leaders: Ye thought we were such ones as your selves; but our wayes are not like yours:

[Page 21] T.L. Whether it be an Argument of covetousness in an humble and orderlie waie, to desire opportunitie, libertie, countenance, and maintenance from a Christian Magistrate for the comfortable discharge of our gifts and abilities?

Answ. A Christian Magistrate will readily give opportuni­ty, liberty, and countenance to the Ministers of Christ for to discharge their Ministerial gifts and abilities, though by them never hereunto desired, (will he forbid or restrain them) or else shall he be no Christian Magistrate, but rather an An­tichristian: And as for maintenance, that will he also pro­vide them if their heavenly Father (as Christ hath promi­sed) feed them not, Matth: 6.26. But friends, if ye seek first of all the kingdom of God, and the righteousnesse thereof, (though you never in this humble and orderlie waie desire of the Ma­gistrate food and raiment) all these things shall be added unto you: But you by not believing the promises of God, but seeking after all these things, do openlie bewray of what gene­ration ye are, for after all these things do the heathen seek, Mat. 6.32.

And here by the waie I cannot but this observe, That you who with such open confidence claim to your selves the glo­rious titles of Ministers and Embassadors of Christ, do yet reckon your selves it effect to be less regarded of God then the very Fowls of the air, for these the heavenly Father (and not the Magistrate) feedeth, (and rayeth too) Matth 6.26:

Here also I do require of you to shew any one example in the New-Testement, or any thing like an example, where the Ministers of Christ did ever once sue the civil Magistrate for any of these things mentioned in the quaery: But hereof more hereafter.

section 31 Obj: There is as much equity for a publike maintenance to be allowed to the Ministers of the Gospel now, as there was heroto­fore to the Tribe of Levi under the Law.

Ans. 1: The Levites were forbidden to have any Inheri­tance among the people, Numb. 18.25.

Ans. 2: The tithes under the Law were not onelie for the sustenance of the Tribe of Levi, but also of the stranger, the [Page 22]fatherlesse, and the widow, that they might eat and be fill­ed Deut. 26.12.13. Deut. 14.29 So that the store-house for Tythes mentioned Mal. 3 19. had far greater allyance and resemblance to Hospitals and Alms-houses, then to the called Ministers Parsonage-Barnes, and Places of receit &c.

An. 3. The man and his house were also to eat of the ty­thes or the proceed thereof Deut. 14.26.

An. 4: The year of tything among the Iews was on the third year Deut. 26.12. Deut. 14.28.

An. 5: The Owner of the tythable Lands was to lay up the tythes within his gates Deut: 14:28: And not the Le­vite to carry them Captive into his own private Barnes; as now the called Ministers use to do: from whence, as to the relief of the stranger, the fatherlesse and the widow, (with many of them) there is no more return, then is redempti­on out of Hell.

An: 6: The Ministers of the Gospel ought to bee con­formable as wel in point of maintenance as in other things, to the ordinances, rules, and examples, touching this mat­ter, which are contained in the new Testament, which also you do pretend to be your rule of life, as well as of faith: Who so do otherwise, albeit they be called and counted Mi­nisters of Christ; yet is it manifest that they serve not the Lord Jesus, but their own bellies Phil. 3.19. where also they may read their Doome: Whose end is destruction.

And here I shall admonish the Reader once for all, that for the most part in this controversie touching Ministers maintenance, I thus have disputed with the adversaries, as men yet personating true Ministers of Christ: certainly my answers have equally concluded these also as to the mainte­nance here debated; whereupon it followes that though all those Scriptures & reasons above alledged were valid enough to warrant a state or publique maintenance for Christs true Ministers; yet will they stand our adversaries in no stead at all, but be unto them as broken staffs, untill they also shall have proved themselves to be such Ministers, which is a diffi­culty no lesse then for a Camel to pass through a Needles eye.

[Page 23]T.L. Whether your Seducing Leaders may not be as just­ly charged to scent fat houses at vast distances (even as farr as Dan to Beersheba, from the North to the West of England) as Ministers to scent fat Benefices?

32 An. The Leaders among us (nor others) do not break up mens houses nor distrain their goods; nor finally use they any forcible or sinister means, whereby they may have to live of: But are freely invited to those thou callest, fat hou­ses; and there what is set before them do they eat; accor­ding to Luke 10.7.8. Do your Leaders also do so too? No, yours are first to go in an humble and orderly way to the Magistrate, for Warrant to collect and recover a large Re­venew, before you espouse your gifts and abilities to any particular Flock (as you cal't:) Tis muck makes marriage with you.

Think ye in your consciences, that our Leaders, as you call them, would have relinquished their own Countries Habitations, Kindreds, Callings, Estates, with many o­ther things dear to men; for to travel so many miles & with so many difficulties to conflict, such & so many scoffs, taunts, stripes, hurly burlyes, and tumults; stocks, questionings, perils, and finally both long and greivous imprisonments, voluntarily to undergo and indure, and all for sake of a Fat house, or the like? sure, ye cannot so think; say what ye will. Although, (to retort this matter upon your selves) it be not only thought, but even certainly known; that whole swarms of the men of your faculty, have come out of Scotland and New England hither, for sake of our larger Benefices; though its like enough they felt no great want (certainly not such a pinching one, as to make them start so great way,) in the places where they formerly resided.

But how much the men of your Coate, do prefer their own outward ease, before the service of Christ, is manifest by this; that on every light occasion, untouch'd, unharm'd, they crosse the Seas, and away for another Land; wherein they seem one degree (at least) worse then the Hireling Shepherds in Iohn 10.12. for hee first saw the Wolfe coming[Page 24]ere he left the sheep and fled; whereas your fellow shep­herds hast away, when as there is no danger in view; so far they are from laying down their lives for their sheep, which yet is the part and property of a good shepherd, (Iohn 10.11.) Also what kind of shepherds were they, and what title of honor deserve they for their courage who in the late wars, so unanimously left their flocks, and fled, not once adventuring to sustain the least hazard, either for them, or with them: Are not these rather Cowards then shepherds; and Mercenaries rather then Volunteers? And yet of this sort consist your holy godly Orthodox Ministers, and renowned Champions for truth (miscalled so.)

section 33 T. L. Whether there be not many Ministers (whose re­cord is on high) that never solicited to obtain, but were much solicited to accept of those particular Flocks, over whom the holy Ghost hath made them overseers?

An [...] Even those of your order, that thus are solicited to accept your particular Flocks, I trow they be not such yet, as be content with the Lamb and wool, only of those sheep, which (as in recompence of their Pastors care) are willing to give them these things; I believe their hands are of yet a far wider graspe: Do not even these your choice ones, your rare ones, your men for ostentation, Reap where they ne­ver Sowed? Spoile they not of their fleeces, these sheep also which never were accounted as of their Fold; but alwayes rejected their care, and overseership?

Neither did the holy Ghost make such men overseers; but their own, and their followers wills, and deceit.

section 34 T. L. Whether it may not be lawful when the glory of God and good of Soules require, to leave a lesse and go to a greater congregation?

An. Do ye not much more frequently go from greater to lesser congregations where [...]he profits yet be greater? for who is there now so blind among us that seeth not clearly, that all such your motions and trudgings from Parish to Pa­rish do rest alwayes, as in their center, in places of larger revenue, then those you last left? Have you the boldnesse [Page 25]to deny it? I cite for witnesses against you, not hundreds, nor thousands, but well neare all the Parishes in England: As for those Benefices, that are poore and having little Dow­ry; are they not like a widow forsaken? Have these their doores ever knocked at by you? exce [...] perhaps at a Harvest time, or other good season, it be for your profitt (not for Gods glory, and good of souls) to visit them; truly you can passe by such (how sick and ill soever) as the Priest and the Levite (your Ancestors) did by the wounded man going to Iericho. So that it may seem you account all mean Benefi­ced Parishes to be but flocks of Reprobates; and so not to be for the Glory of God to endeavour their salvation; but ra­ther to promote their damnation; to make for the Glory of his justice: (as you somtimes speak.)

T. L. Whether those Ministers at least must not by your selves be pronounced not covetous, that have either gone section 35 from greater Benefices and sate down in lesser, where the work has been more, and the reward less? or else have re­mained in lesser, and oftentimes refused the proffers of grea­ter?

An. How many such Phaenix's can ye number among you? How many such black Swans? May not all of your Tribe that be such, be conveniently covered under a Bushell, and this without lack of roome? It may have been indeed, that here­tofore in the times when tythes were in danger to be abo­lished, some of your brethren, being pretty well beloved of the Parishes where they dwelt, thought it no part of pru­dence to change a certainty for an uncertainty, though of greater value for the present: So still here was cherisht the plant of covetousness, though in a walled Garden.

section 36 T. L. Whether it be not a slander cast on many Ministers in this Nation, to say that they indent for a maintenance [An. Tis true that many of the called Ministers do so indent, and therefore no slander to charge it on many: Note here by the way, Reader, the querent calls it a slander, to charge them with such indentings for a maintenance; If the thing be law­ful to be done, and agreeable to the Scriptures (as most of [Page 26]these men pretend it to be) why do he yet call it a slander, if one affirme it of them? for slanders are of things evil in their nature, and not of things Lawful to be done: This is therefore no lesse then an implicit confession, that who so of the called Ministers, thus indent for maintenance, they do committ that which is evil; seeing if this matter be charged on another, that hath not don it, tis by them called a slander; That is, an evil matter falsly charged.]

Further he saith—When as tis wel known many of them live on a free contribution [An. Call ye not that a free con­tribution which men yeeld unto you for fear of the Law, and of trebble damages &c. When they give you that, which if they refuse, ye are ready to take by force to their great losse and trouble to boote: Such a free contribution as this, is, when a true man delivers his purse for fear of the sword or Pistoll.]

Again saith he—And others very many preach hundreds of Lectures gratis. &c. An. And how many hundreds be there among you, that take a stipend, or other reward for their Lectures? But who seeth not this business of Lectu­ring, is even become with many of you Preachers as an oc­casion of merry meetings, and a kind of recreation? (To o­mitt other ends yet worse then these:) Most commonly the Lecture is but the second edition of a Sermon formerly preached, and for which ye were richly paid; and so ye might well afford to give it away another time gratis.

section 37 T. L. For those who in these unsetled times, think it fit to be at some settlement with their people, [An. It should seem then it is in their own power and choise to settle where they list, and are not at Gods disposal to be sent to this or that place; as unto him may seem good: Made ye were Mi­nisters by the wil of man, and so is the administration of your office suitable to its creation stil in the will of man.] He addeth—Whether a prudent care of providing for their own, and so not being worse then an Infidell, 1. Tim. 5 8. [An. If ye be of the flock of Christ; much more if ye be his shepherds (as you pretend to bee) this prudent care is[Page 27]needeless; for the Heavenly Father provides for such; see be­fore: Neither is it lawful for you to shun this point of Infidelity, by taking, or begging other mens estates to provide-for your own, no more then it is for a man being in want to take or begg an others goods of him that cannot justly give them.] 'It followes—and fear of giving occasion of offence, if really forced to remove forwant of a competent maintenance [An. Do we any where read such sentences in the Scriptures? Here hath the querist in effect confessed, that their Removals (at least somtimes) is for want of a competent maintenance: What's that? let us be informed: Whom of these Removers shall we take, as having defined unto us what, and how much his competent maintenance is? Some have removed from 50l. 60l. 70l. 80l. 100l. 150l. 200l. by the yeare, to places of grea­ter profit. Now say that 80l per Annum is a competent maintenance (and I trust ye will not deny it) all such then, as having this maintenance or a greater, did neverthelesse give eare to the call of a louder Benefice, must needs be con­demned of Avarice, love of filthy lucre, and that by Judgement not to be reversed, no, not in your own Court of conscience; so corrupt and partial as it is: Now how ma­ny such there have been, is not my purpose here to recount; nor scarce a great Volume would suffice to contain them; nor are their names worthy even to be remembred; so many and so bad they be: Then saith he; 'As also the feare of temp­ting God instead of trusting him, Mathew 4.7. [An. There's no fear at all of Incurring Gods wrath by thus tempting of him; which were indeed but to confesse his truth, and honesty, by trusting to his own promise; see before: But what makes this Scripture to the purpose? Did Christ in that place forbid you, or the Ministers of the Gospel, (while he reproved the Devil) to depend upon God for lively-hood?]

It followeth—'Are not sufficient grounds to induce some Ministers to procure a promise of a Gospel lively-hood, [An. A Gospel lively-hood is, having food and rayment, to be therewith content; not to have our lusts supplyed to all ex­cesse, and luxury, both in food and rayment. But where do[Page 28]we find this kind of bargaining for Ministers mantenance in the Scriptures? Indeed we do read such a thing in Micah. 2.11. The Priests thereof teach for hire, and the Prophets there­of Divine for money &c. Also, we have such Teachers fore­told in 2. Pet. 2.1.2.3. But there were also false Prophets a­mong the people even as there shall be false Teachers among you, Who privily shall bring in damnable Heresies &c. & through covetousnesse shall they, with fained words, make merchandize of you: and in ver. 14. Having eyes full of Adultery, and that cannot cease from sin, beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have [Mark what a one it is;] exercised with covetous practi­ces; cursed children which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, &c. This Balaam is he that prophesied for gifts and rewards: See also Iudes Epistle; and there mayst thou see these Mercenary Teachers limmed as it were in a Prophetical picture or Idea, when as yet they were rather seen then felt. But to the query briefly thus I answer; If ye be Ministers of man, and not of Christ, its then consentaneous, that from man yee do al­so procure a promise for maintenance, and not that ye rely on God in this behalfe; seeing his promise and care hereabout respecteth true Ministers, and not such as ye are. But be it sup­posed, that ye should procure no such promise for your main­tenance: Suppose all forced maintenance were taken a way, Do you believe notwithstanding, that God and the people would administer to you a competent maintenance? If you do so believe, then what need of this indenting, and procuring of promise for such competent maintenance; together with your suits to the Magistrate and others? (For none of these things did Christs Ministers of old time practice, and yet had they food and rayment even to contentment.) If you do not believe it, but do doubt thereof, then do you clearly mani­fest that you esteem your selves to be lesse regarded both of God and man, then those you count and call seducing Lea­ders, and Teachers of Heresie, Blasphemy, &c. for all such, you see, have a competent maintenance, and yet do they ne­ver indent, or use other such meanes to obtain it, as you[Page 29]do: Neither yet are they Murmerers and Complainers as both the false Teachers in Jude 16. and most of you are, a­bout things pertaining to maintenance; VVill ye deny it? I appeal to the Court of Exchequer (which yet is your grea­test friend) I appeal to all the Parishes (almost) in England, If such ye be not. And for a conclusion of this Answer, I do seriously commend unto you (ye indenting Covenanting Preachers) the reading of Matth. 26. especially the 15. vers. And [Judas] said unto them, VVhat will ye give me? &c. and they Covenanted with him for thirty pieces of Silver. Is not here your very type? Can any two things be more alike, than Judas and you? What will ye gi [...]e me (saith he)? Ac­knowledge ye not this language? And they covenanted with him, &c. And is not this your For Co­venanting is a mutu­al or reci­procal A­ction. practise also? Not one Egg more like another.

section 38 T.L. VVhether the Apostles did ever forbid all Suits be­fore Christians? 1 Cor. 6.1,2,3,4,5.

Answ. By the place here cited, it appeareth, That the A­postle reprehended, and that severely, the Corinthians, for going to Law before the unjust and unbeleevers; advising them in effect to refer their Controversies unto the Judge­ment of the Saints and Christian Brethren. Now the Chri­stians in those times, as is well known, were not Judges of Civil Courts, and so had not power to enforce the execution of their Judgement (if at any time they had judged of Con­troversies) or otherwise to punish the Contemners thereof. Had you also sued in such manner, and with like event, we should then have little to say against you, touching this point. And yet here doth the Apostle allow no better event, and fruit of such Judgements, than is above implyed: For had he been otherwise minded, I see no reason why he should have so grievously taxed these Corinthians. But how sure a Patron the same Paul is to your unreasonable Suits at Law; If ye list to know, read but the 9th verse of the fore-quoted Chapter: N [...]w therefore there is utterly a fault among ye, be­cause ye go to Law one with another: Why do ye not rather take wrong? Why do ye not rather suffer your selves to be defrauded? [Page 30]Oh, how is this Scripture, so full of right Christian Spirit, by men of your Trade contemned! Do you never go to Law, but before the Saints, as Paul here adviseth? Do you never Sue before the unjust, which Paul here disswadeth: Think ye it was sutable to this mind of Paul, to approve your many and costly Suits, with your trebble Damages to boot; espe­cially your title to the thing Demanded, and other circum­stances being withal considered? Yea, rather with what indignation and bitterness, would he have pronounced, There's utterly a fault amongst you? See more in the next Section.

section 39 T.L. VVhether Ministers may not make use of one Or­dinance of God for the upholding of another, viz. Ministers Maintenance? 1 Cor. 9.14.

Answ. You are first of all to prove that you are that, whereof you deceitfully vaunt your selves, viz. Christs true Ministers: In the mean time you do but strutt and swagger under a false Name, like as sometimes vile Scenicks do in a Princes robe and Person. To your Query therefore I give this Answer; If Christs true Ministers ye be not, then it fol­lows that your Ministery is not at all to be upheld, but ra­ther cast down. But if ye be such; then again it is evident, That never had these need (that I read, or know) to make use of the Magistracy for their maintenance; at least not such a maintenance as is here disputed. To the Scripture cited in the Query, I Answer; That the livelihood there meant, was the voluntary Contribution of Beleevers (as I have shewed before) and no forced maintenance, (as you would have it.) But it's apparent John Wickliffe (whom also I have formerly alleaged) was of quite another mind and judge­ment than you are: For thus he saith, [Art. 3. Complaint] Of which authority it is plain and open, That the things that be due to Priests, should not be asked by Strength, by Violence, or by Cursing; but be given freely without Exaction or Con­straining. And a little after; Also Christ with his Apostles lived most poor life as it is known by all the process of the Gospel, Nothing Challenging by Exaction, nor Constraining; but lived [Page 31]simply and scarcely enough of Alms freely and wilfully given: Therefore they that pretend themselves to be principal Followers of Christs steps, should live and walk as Christ did, and so live full poor life, taking of things freely given, as much as need is. Doubtless you think it foul scorn, and much beneath your worth, to follow this wholesome advice of Wickliffe, albeit it be grounded on, and exactly conform both to the Com­mands, and Examples of Christ, and all his Apostles.

section 40 T.L. Whether a Child may not run, when abused, for redress, to his Nursing Father? Isa. 49.23.

Answ. Think ye that the Magistrate, is there called Nur­sing Father, because of his feeding the Ministers of Christ, or others, with earthly food? And yet 'tis not long since, that ye called him Dry Nurse; namely, when he diverted from your mouths (then gaping wide to receive it) his milk of Bishops, and Dean and Chapters Lands.

section 41 T.L. Whether the Tenth part of the Increase be not by the Law as due to Ministers, as the Nine parts remaining to the Possessor?

Answ. Your Right to the Tenth of the Increase of Peoples Goods, is it not one and the same with the Right of the late Monopolists, which they had to their Pensions out of Pins, Soap, &c? For this did they beg of the Magistrate; and by what other way do you come by your Right to the Tenth of Increase? The People do buy their Lands, Sheep, &c. for money, at reasonable Estimations; and that of the right and private Owner: Do you in like manner acquire your Right to the Tenth of Increase? The Title you get by Beg­ging, what is it else but a Beggarly Right?

section 42 T. L. VVhether Ministers, when all peaceable means; &c?

Answ. VVhen ye shall have prov'd your selves to have as good Propriety in Tithes, as other men have in their Estates, we shall grant you then, That you may as justly appeal also to the Christian Magistrate, for the obtaining thereof, as any other man for the procuring of his demands.

section 43 T. L. VVhether your decrying of trebble Damages, &c?

[Page 32] Answ. It's well for the false Prophet, he hath the Beast to ride on: But tell us of that Magistrate that gave you trebble Damages, or other Mulcts, that ye now can lawfully sue for in any Court that is extant? VVhat one Magistrate for you did, i.e. Took away the Ecclesia­stical Courts; wherein alone it was lawful to sue for Tythes.another hath undone; as I formerly noted.

section 44 T.L. Whether it be not covetousness, and no conscience to refuse to pay that, which is due, and unjustly to detain that which is neither yours, nor was your Fathers by Gift or Purchase?

Answ. If any man there be that so doth, far be it from me to defend him. But what say ye to them, that bought All their Closes, Grounds, Tenements, &c. and this without all exception of the Tith, or any other part? You'l say per­haps, he did not buy the Tenth of the Corn, Hay, &c. Answ. No more did he buy the ninth, seventh, sixth, or other part, viz. in words express: Is it lawful therupon for another to go to the Magistrate, & beg all these parts of the increase of my land; or could the Magistrate justifie such a Gift? Although it may seem in this matter, ye count all Fish that comes to your Net. The Magistrate gives; Ergo, you may take, be it right or wrong, you pass not for that Which is language more befitting Court-parasites, and filching Monopolists, than such as go under the name (a great way you are beneath it) of Ministers of Christ.

section 45 T.L. Whether Ananias and Sapphira, Acts. 5.1,2. and those mentioned Mal. 3.8,9. had not as great reason to pre­tend Conscience, as those that with-hold others due?

Answ. 1. When you also in like manner can avenge your cause on them that with-hold your Tithes (so called) as Pe­ter there punish'd the sin of Ananias and Sapphira; men will lay the Tithes at your feet, and never stand out to a tryal with you.

Answ. 2. We grant we are as well like Ananias and Sap­phira, as you are like Peter.

Answ. 3. If our Case be the same with Ananias and Sap­phira's, your Right is then extended, not now to the tenth, but or the whole price of our Possessions: and so we shall be[Page 33]but as your Alms-men, or Tenants by courtesie, for the other Nine parts we keep.

section 46 T.L. If by Petitioning you mean the late Petition handed in this County; we ask, Whether that abominable Blasphe­mer, Nayler, and his adherents, &c?

Answ. It's notorious that those your Petitions, embraced a far greater number, than Nayler and his adherents, who were not above six or seven (as I remember:) Yea, surely your Petitions were as large (at least in aime and vote) as Hamans Decree, Esther 3.13. namely, for destroying the whole Race of the Jews; as before I have noted. And if e­ven they be blasphemers, who say they are Jews, and are not, Rev. 2.9. then are not they abominable blasphemers, who say they are Christs Ministers and Embassadors, and are not, but are rather so many Chieftains in the Synagogue of Satan? Yet did we never Petition the Magistrate against you, nor wish you any evil; but rather desire that with persecuting, and blasphemous Saul, ye may be converted, and your sins for­given. So fulfilling the Commands of Christ, who saith, Bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, pray for them that despightfully use you, and persecute you.

section 47 T.L. Whether Ministers, or your Selves, occasioned the Tumults and incivilities (if there were any) at the time of your Meeting at Aish?

Answ. If there were any! Why, what plainner Tumult could have been made; and what greater incivilities could have been committed, than were at the Meeting at Aish? Thrusting, pushing, pulling, haling, renting of clothes; throwing of apples, dirt, sticks: hooting, shouting, loud laughters, scoffing, jearing, &c. Do not, I say, all these amount to a Tumult? Any one of these things in your Mee­tings would be counted occasion enough for a tumult. And when did this savage uproar begin? VVhen those called Ministers came to the Meeting. How, and with whom did they come? They came with a multitude of rude Fellows, having Corn-pikes, clubs, staves, even in like manner, and with like company, and almost like armed, as Judas their[Page 34]elder brother, came against Christ to betray him, Matth. 26.14,15.47. But I hear the Relation it self is to be Printed; to which I refer the Reader.

section 48 T. L. VVhether your usual course of coming into our Assemblies, and railing at, and reviling at Ministers without the least provocation, be not an occasion of Tumults?

Answ. It was not railing, nor reviling, when the true Prophets called the false Teachers, Preachers for hire; Di­viners for money; Dumb dogs; Greedy dogs; Idol shep­herds; Ravening VVolves, and the like. And what occa­sion is it of Tumults (in a Christian; yea, in a civil, or rea­sonable Congregation) if these or the like names be now al­so given, to those, to whom the same do no less truly belong; and that through the movings and impulse of the same holy Spirit, as led the said Prophets to do so before? But a very small matter will put your Disciples into a tumult, who ne­ver were in any good order: And a slight offence will them provoke, who are the children of wrath, and have fingers e­ver itching to shed bloud; the bloud of the innocent.

section 49 T.L. He quaeries, VVhether when the Scriptures speak of the Saints being Perfect, they be not to be meant of the last day?

Answ. Ye do prudently, Friends, to adjourn Perfection unto the very last day; as being conscious to your own selves, The VVomb of your Ministry is too base and barren a thing, to bear and bring forth so goodly fruit. But if the Saints may be perfect on the last day, why not as well a day, a month, a year before? Your Case is even thus; You are convinced by a many plain Scripture, That the Saints are per [...]ect, (as anon I shall also prove) Now because the Schol­lars of your School (with the Masters and all) are at so great distance from perfection (though they be ever learning, 2 Tim. 3.7.) They have invented this Artifice to salve the matter; No man, say they, is perfect but when he's a dying, (as some) or till the last day (as others say.) And now do they think they have got a sure shield, for to ward off all Assaults of them, who may charge them with sin, and im­perfection:[Page 35]perfection: But this shield is too narrow for their turn, as may appear by the Scriptures ensuing:

• 1 To be perfect is one of Gods Commandments, Matth. 5.48. And the Commandments of God are not grievous, 1 John 5:3: If not grievous, then not impossible; seeing e­ven that which is grievous, is yet possible to be done: And he that keeps Gods Commandments (which may be done) the same is perfect.
• 2 Ye are my friends if ye do whatsoever I c [...]mmand [...]ou, Joh. 15 14: The Saints are Christs friends; and therefore do they whatsoever Christ commandeth them: and they that so do are perfect.
• 3 The Saints are Gods workmanship, Eph: 2:10: But the workmanship of God perfect, Deut: 32:9:
• 4 He that neither sinneth, nor can sin, is perfect: But such are they that are born of God, 1 Joh: 3:9: 1 Joh: 5:18:
• 5 He (Christ) gave some Apostles, and some Prophets, and some Evangelists, &c. for the perfecting of the Saints, Eph: 4:12:13: Did not those Apostles, Prophets, &c. attain the end for which they were given? Or else did their Ministery suspend its operation and effect until the last day?
• 6 It's possible for the Saints to come unto a perfect man; to the measure of the stature of Christs fulness, Eph: 4:13,14: And they that be here, be surely perfect. Now that these things are all attainable in this life; and that also many years before the hour of death, is evident by what is immediately subjoyned, viz. That we henceforth be no more Children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of Doctrine by the slight of men, &c. It's said [that henceforth] that is, From the time of their being a perfect man and of being come to the mea­sure of the stature of Christs fulness; else, will the sense be broken, jarring, and altogether incoherent. And surely all those things that follow [Henceforth] do imply a much larger time, than the last day. Had Paul here been of the Querents mind, That perfection comes not till the last day, would he have said, That henceforth; that is, That after the Saints be perfect, and be come to the measure of Christs stature, They [Page 36]be no more children tossed too and fro &c. For what space, time, or danger or possibility, could he then have conceived, of their being tossed too and fro with every winde of Doctrine &c. This is, after the last day: on which day the querents supposes that the Saints are to be made perfect; and not before.
• 7. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man Iam: 3:2: Now it's impossible that there should be such men, as Iames here describeth. Or did he here only propose the Idaea or Patern of a perfect man, which never yet had, nor never was to have actuall being? This were rather to make him a Platonick Philosopher, then one of Christs faith­ful Ministers: and a nugatory speculator rather, then a teach­er of things to be done.
• 8. Now the God of peace—make you perfect in good works to do his will Heb: 13:20:21: If we be not made perfect till the last day, what space of time then remaineth, wherein, after one is perfect, he may do the will of God. Think ye that this prayer regardeth only the last day? Was it needful to pray that believers might be made perfect in good works to do Gods will on the last day? Would you not have Gods will to be done before that day? See 2 Cor: 13.1. Finally brethren farewell; be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace &c: Are all these things not attainable before the last day? Or are some before; and some (or one) not till then?
• 9: Mark the perfect man, behold the upright, for the end of that man is peace Psalm. 37:37. Do these words so sound as if David held no man perfect untill the last day? Is not the peaceable end, here spoken of, the effect or conco­mitant of perfection? But if no man be perfect till the last day what sense can be gathered from these words? What end is the perfect man to have at, or after the last day? And who is then to mark it?
• 10. Heb: 7.19: For the Law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did &c: He doth not say shall; & that at the last day: Again Heb. 10.14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. They [Page 37]therefore that are sanctified, are likewise Perfected: But men are sanctified before the last day.

  Also Heb. 12.22.23. But ye are come unto Mount Sion &c. and to the spirits of just men made perfect &c. Now how could the Saints be then come to the spirits of just men made perfect, If it be true, that none be made perfect till the last day.

• 11. Let us therefore as many as be Prefect be thus minded Phil. 3.15. Now if neither Paul himselfe, nor any other were at this time perfect, this exhortation were void of all sense and reason: For if none were then perfect whom did he then exhort?
• 12. Howbeit we speak Wisdom among them that are per­fect, 1. Cor. 2.6. Now if none can be perfect till the last day, then will it necessarily follow, that either Paul spake Wis­dom among them that were not perfect, or else among none at all. But both these are false.

  Objection: Paul himselfe professes that he was not made perfect Philip. 3.12.13. Ans. The perfection there spoken of, is to be understood of a certain degree or measure of per­fection, which Paul at that time had not attained unto; and not of perfection, simply considered: Otherwise this place should contradict other both many & evident Scriptures; yet doth the same Paul say in the following words: But I follow after if that I may apprehend that for w^ch also I am apprehen­ded of Christ: and in Vers 14. He saith, I presse toward the mark &c. Now did he follow after, and presse towards this degree of perfection in faith, or not in faith? If in faith, then did he believe it possible to be attained unto. See more of this point hereafter.

• 13. Finally, the Scriptures give this testimony of Noah, Job, and others, that they were perfect men, Gen. 6.9. Job 1.8. and this was long time ago.

section 50 T. L. Whether can you rationally expect that our hearers should be more perfect then the eleven Apostles. [Answ. I grant indeed 'twere very absurd to expect your Hea­rers should be perfect while they are under such imperfect [Page 38]Teachers.] Those stars of the highest magnitude in the Church. [Answ. And yet the Priests, Scribes, and Pharisees could not abide them, but sought to pluck them out of their Firmament.] Whom yet Christ upbraideth with unbelief and hardnesse of heart. [Answ. There is a childhood in grace, they had not as yet re­ceived the Promise of the Father, which was the gift of the Spirit; neither were their understandings yet opened, &c. Ioh. 15 26. & 20.22. Luk. 24 45,49. Act. 2.1,2,3,4.

section 51 Ob. Eccles. 7.20. James 3.2. 1 Joh. 1.8. Answ. I do not de­ny but he that is a Saint may commit sin; but ye the that abi­deth in Christ sinneth not: Resist the Devil and he will flye; Here I demand whether it be possible to resist the devil and all other temptations to sin? If thou say it's possible at all times so to resist; then it follows, That a Saint may forbear at all times from sinning, and so never sin: But if thou say its impossible so to resist, and that he must needs give way to temptations, and so commit sin, Then is this not to be count­ed a sin which thus is not willingly committed, but as an en­forced passion, and is of the same accompt with a Rape, which a woman may suffer without any guilt of sin.

section 52 T.L. Whether, though none of our Hearers in this life either are, or can be free from the reliques and remainders of sin, Ro. 7.23,24. yet whether many of them are not perfectly freed from the condemnation of sin, Rom 8:1: & 33,34. yea, & so far from the dominion and power of sin, Rom: 6:14: that though sin be in them, yet they are not in sin? but that we may com­fortably believe that testimony of them which the Scripture gives of Iob, Iob 1:1. That they feare God and eschew evil? And that notwithstanding their human frailties and infirmi­ties, yet neverthelesse their hearts, as the heart of Asa was, are perfect all their dayes, 2. Chron. 15.17. so perfect as to be sincere and upright?

Answ. Concerning the righteousnesse and perfection of your Hearers; I Answer: That by their fruits they are known. And if they be not free from sin, then not dead to sin; and so under the Law and not under grace, Rom. 7.6: Rom. 6:18:22:

[Page 39]In Rom. 3:23,24: Paul declareth his warring estate, at which time he was carnal, sold under sin, verse 14: brought into the cap­tivity to the law of sin, verse 23: At which time he also cryeth out, Oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death! But the same Paul in other places doth wit­ness a far different estate from this: for thus he saith, When we were in the flesh, verse 5: Ye are not in the flesh, Rom. 8.9. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death, Rom. 8:2: How can we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Rom.And if Christ be in you the body is dead because of sin, Rom. 8.10. See also Rom. 7.6. From these, and many other places that might have been al­leaged, it is most evident, That Paul in this seventh Chapter to the Romans, treateth of his warfare, & of the condition he then was in while yet he was not wholly dead to sin, nor had yet obtained the victory over the carnal part; and so was not yet delivered from under the thunders and tempest of Sinai's condemnation.

section 53 T.L. Whether any of you received the mystery of Christ by Revelation, the same way that Paul did, who received it by Christs speaking to him in the Hebrew tongue: compare Eph. 3.3,4,5. with Acts 26.14.

Answ. This seemeth to me a very silly quaere; as though the language in which God speaketh, when he calls any one to the Ministery, or other service, were of any consideration or mo­ment, as in respect to the validity of such a Call, and authori­ty thereby received: Let the Reader compare these two Scri­pturers (in the quaere) and he shall find the latter end of this question yet worse than the beginning.

section 54 T.L. Whether those faithful men at Ephesus to whom Ti­mothy committed those things that he had heard of Paul, 2 Tim. 22. and 3.14. And whether those Elders that were ordained in Creet, by Titus, whom Paul left there for that purpose, Tit. 1.5. might not be truly stiled Ministers made by Jesus Christ, i. e. by Christs appointment; though they were not Apostles, Prophets, or Evangelists?

[Page 40] Answ. 1. To that of Timothy, I Answer; 1. They were to be faithful men. 2. It follows not, That this committing of things heard, &c unto them, did make and constitute such men ipso facto Christs Ministers. 3. Timothy was able to judge who were fit and able, To teach others also. Did such a man, or men, as Timothy was, give any of you commission to teach others? Of this before.

Answ. 2. Neither doubt I but Titus had good Authority to Ordain those Elders, (so as the place importeth.) And had your Ordainers as good also, I should as little doubt theirs too.

Answ. 3. If your Ordainers had Ordained such Ministers as Paul there describeth, and appoints to be Ordained, Tit. 1.6,7,8,9,10. I believe I should readily own and embrace them: For such had been blameless, sober, just, holy, temperate, and not given to Filthy Lucre, &c. which are such vertues and graces we cannot yet see in any of you, no, not though we stand never so near you: Whereas the contrary vices are so vigorous in you, that you yield a bad scent wherever you come; with them that have senses incorrupt, to smell it.

Answ. 4: And is it not rather to be said, That this ordain­ing of Elders was not a constituting of Ministers simply; but an assigning or appointing of them, that were such before, to some new, and special, or particular charge, or service? The word is as well, if not better englished, Settle, Place: Also this sence, the cohering words do favour; In every City; He saith not of such or such a place, or Church; nor yet Elders simply.

Finally, It's here to be remembred what kind of Ordinati­on was in use in those Primitive times; For this see Sect. 3.

section 55 T.L. Whether Christs promise, That he would be with his Apostles unto the end of the World, Matth 28.19,20. can be any otherwise made good then in his being present with ordinary Pastors, that should succeed in the Church to the end of the world?

Answ. If the place be so to be understood as the Quaerent [Page 41]taketh it, then where were those Pastors and Successors to the Apostles; and how was God with them for so many hun­dreds or years, even during all the time of Popish Apostacy, which began even in the Apostles age? But your main busi­ness is, to prove your selves to be true Pastors of Christ; which ye never can do, so long as ye continue Hirelings (See Iohn 10.12.)

section 56 T.L. Whether ordinary Pastors and Teachers are not as well said to be given for the Work of the Ministry &c as well as Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Eph 4 11,12. and that till we all come to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, vers. 13. which is not, cannot be till the end of the world; compare Ephes 4.11,12,13. with 1 Cor. 12.28.

Answ. 1 I deny your distinction of Pastors into ordinary and extraordinary (taking the word Pastor as distinct from A­postle, &c) This is your case; ye are asham'd to claim to your selves the name of Apostle or Pastor in a Scripture sense, which you seem to call extraordinary; This one name therefore ye craftily divide into two; that being driven from the possession of the one (i. e. exttaordinary) ye may yet as a reserve, have the other to flye to: imitating herein (after a sort) those Spirits, that being commanded to go out of the man, prayed they might have leave to pass into the Swine.

Answ. 2. Ye cannot away to hear of the Saints arrival to the measure of Christs stature: Why? Because ye your selves are so short thereof: Also well know ye in your selves, That as many as are come hither, or fair in the way thereto, be now tall enough to over-look all your deceits and failings.

Answ. 3. I demand, Whether All the Saints shall come to this neasure all at one time; that is, (as you say) at the end of the world? If ye say, Yea; then it seems (after your sense) the Saints shall neither till then come to the unity of the Faith, or the knowledge of the Son of God: Forasmuch as both these are coupled together with the other; which were very absurd to affirm, (taking the end of the world in that sense you take it) and openly contradictory to many other places of Scriptures. Whosoever is truly in the Faith; is one with [Page 42]all others who are likewise in the same Faith. The Beleevers of old time were all of one heart, and of one soul (Acts 4.32) were not these come to the Unity of the Faith; & also in the way of attaining to the measure of Christs stature, &c.? The one Faith being in many, makes them all of one heart, mind, and consent: We are one bread; fellow-members of the same body. See also, 1 John 1.7. Again, how can a man be a true Believer, that is not, in some measure, come to the know­ledge of the Son of God? See Iohn 17.3. 1 Cor. 2.2. Phil 3.10 2 Thes. 1.8. 1 John 2.3. & 2.13, &c. Now that all these things, namely, Unity of the Faith; Knowledge of the Son of God, and Coming to be a Perfect man, are referred to one and the same time, (i e. the time of this life) with coming to the mea­sure of the stature of Christs fulness, is very plain, in that they are all alike joyned together in one form, and manner of speech under the word [until.] See more of this in Section 49:6.

section 57 T L. Whether Magistrates are not truly styled Ministers of God, though ordained by men?

Answ Magistrates indeed are Gods very Ministers, but in Civil, not in a Spiritual accompt: And yet if the Magistrate, so well as ye now account him, should once abandon your Function to voluntary Contribution, you would turne your Tale, I beleeve:

section 58 T:L. Whether those that say none other things than those which Moses and the Prophets did say should come, Acts 26.22. and that determine to know nothing; yea, to Preach nothing but Jesus Christ and him Crucified, and that accor­ding to the Scriptures, may not be rightly styled to speak as the Oracles of God?

Answ. They only are to be said to speak as the Oracles of God, who speak by inspiration or revelation of the holy Ghost; or else in the Light speak those things which them­selves have handled and tasted, both seasonably and aptly for the edification, or benefit of the hearers: But they that are in the flesh cannot please God, (Rom. 8 8.) whatever they say, or determine to know, or preach. And though ye may[Page 43]use the words of Scripture, yet cannot ye thus be covered: the Tempter so did, and that cunningly too; and yet got he thereby no thank at all at Christs hands: No more do you neither by Preaching long Sermons compiled of words stoln in like manner out of the Scriptures, (and other Books)

T.L. That these are very vertues, &c. And yet we affirm, That, through Grace, some; yea, many of us, have attained to this, That even the piercing eye of malice it self cannot see so far as justly to charge us.

Answ. The eye of wisdome then sees farthet than the eye of malice; for this sees you full of iniquities: Now the eye of malice is of your side, and therefore not so apt to charge you, how far soever it may see into your guiltiness; yea even this piercing eye hath a mote in it self, and therefore cannot see a beam in yours.

T.L. That our Gifts and Conversations are not, at least, in a competent measure, suitable to that high Calling, where­unto we are called; However not unto us, not unto us, [you mean not here of Tythes, and Augmentations, &c.] but un­to our God's name be the praise.

Answ▪ Our Gifts — If ye were indeed wise, yet your Gifts would blind your eyes: Your Conversations, they are like a menstruous garment, whereof is no part remaining clean, but is wholly defiled Your Calling is from the Serpent, and your Gifts and Conversations are suitable to it. But why is your Calling an high Calling; Because it sets you in the Pulpit on high? It's certain, were it not for Tythes and rich Li­vings, the most of your number would turn the deaf ear to this High Calling, and say they never heard sound thereof. But how bountiful ye are to God! To his Name be the praise. A few empty words without any true ground. Go, offer un­to God the firstlings of your flock, and the fat thereof; until ye so do, the Lord will have no more respect to your Sacrifice, than he had unto his, who for envy slew his Brother; (a vice most truly yours)

section 60 T.L. Whether when the Obedience and satisfaction of Christ, our Surety, unto the Law and Justice of God, is by[Page 44]God the Father freely imputed to us, the righteousness of the Law may not in the Apostles sense (Rom 8.4.) be truly said to be fulfilled in us, or by us, 2 Cor. 5 19,21.

Answ. Here may the Reader take a taste whereby to judge what kind of Interpreters ye are of the Scriptures; the which where they fit, not your purpose, or fansie, ye stick not to wrest, contract, extend, at the beck of each frivolous Opini­on, just as if they were a Nose of VVax But Paul hath suffi­ciently declared what he means, when he saith, That the righ­teousness of the law might be fulfilled in us [not out of us,] in that he adds immediately after, Who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit; And they that so walk, do verily fulfil the righteousness of the Law. By these words therefore he ex­presseth the mean, or way, wherein, or whereby such righ­teousness is fulfilled

section 61 T.L. VVhether those that are said, 1 Cor. 14. to speak by immediate revelation were not extraordinary Officers, and such as continued only for a time in the Church of God and its first planting, and are now ceased?

Answ. VVhile the Churches did abide in the Truth and wayes of God, so long was God also with them; and they did feel the movings of his Spirit, and spake accordingly as of it they were moved: But when they began to forsake their first love, and to joyn with the whore and false Prophets, and to worship the Beast, then did God also justly with-draw himself from them; then did their Sun begin to set, and the shadows of Night ensued. Now heard they not the VVord of the Lord, nor the workings of his Spirit did they per­ceive, but became estranged thereunto. In these dayes did they make a Calf, and offered sacrifice to the Idol, and re­joyced in the works of their own hands

section 62 T.L. VVhether those extraordinary Officers were not styled Prophets, Eph. 4 11. 1 Cor. 12.28.

Answ. Though all in the Primitive Churches were not Prophets, yet was it lawful in those true Churches (though forbidden in yours) for any man to Prophesie, without ex­ception or restraint: For thus saith Paul, Ye may all prophesie[Page 45]one by one 1. Cor. 14.31. and in Vers 1. he saith, Follow after Charity and desire spirituall gifts, but rather that ye may pro­phesy: Also Vers. 5. I would that ye spake with tongues, but ra­ther that ye prophesy. Hence it is manifest that Paul permitted any one to prophesy: and not only so, but secondly, also exhorteth them all indifferently to desire the gift of prophesy (not the office:) And, thirdly, He declares his willingness that they Decla­ring him­selfe to be of the same mind with Mo­ses who desired that all the Lords people were Pro­phets. all might prophesy, &c. Now in Vers 3. he ex­plaineth what he meaneth by prophesying, namely, A speaking unto men to edification exhortation and comfort; and this by revelation of the spirit; as may be gathered of Vers. 30 Let us now erect a comparison, between the speaking and order that were in the Churches of Christ of old time, and the speaking and order (such as it is) that are in your meetings at this day. 1. In those it was lawful, and accord­ing to order, for All to speak: In yours only for One to speak. 2. In those they did speak by revelation of God: In yours they speak by imagination of their own brain. 3. In those they did speak for edification, exhortation and com­fort of others: In yours for Augmentation, Decimation, and benefit of themselves.

section 63 T. L. Whether when the Apostle saith that all may pro­phesy, he doth yet suffer a woman to speak in the Church &c

Ans. Ioel (Chap. 2. Vers 28) prophesyed, that (not their sons only, but also) their daughters should prophesy &c. Where? To whom? Doth not prophesying serve for them which believe? (1. Cor: 14 22) And if to one be­liever, such prophetesses might rightly prophesy; why not also to two, to three, or more? If in a place where these beleivers did or do not usually meet; why not likewise in a-place where they usually meet? If out of a house; why not as well in a house? To a Church in a house? Philemon, 2 Or say ye that the number and place do make and give being to the Church of God? Define unto us then, how many per­sons be necessarily required to the making up of a Church? and also what place it behoveth to be, that with such number[Page 46]must concur, to the so making up of a Church

section 64 T. L. Whether he doth not also exclude private members from intruding on that great office of prophesying when he demands, Are all Teachers &c.

Ans. What private members doth Paul exclude from pro­phesying, when speaking to the Church he saith, Ye may all prophesy (1. Cor 14 31) Neither doth he only permitt (or rather declare it to be lawfull) that all may prophesy; but desireth also that they all might have the gift of prophe­sy (Vers. 5.) And finally exhorteth the whole Church in­distinctly that they desire the gift of prophesy; as is noted be­fore. Agreeable to this mind of Paul was also that of Moses; I would (saith he) that all the Lords people were Prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them, Numb. 11.29. Where also it is to be noted, that though Eldad and Medad had never been counted or acknowledg'd as Prophets, but were private members of the Iewish Church, yet did they pro­phesy, and that in the Camp; not waiting for the triall or approbation of man, nor for any Solmn Investiture into the office of Prophets: It was sufficient authority to them, to prophesy, that the spirit of the Lord rested upon them (Vers. 26.) Now Moses when he heard thereof (yet not yet by what warrant they prophesied) what did he do? Verily he set not the rude multitude upon them to beat them, pull them, tear them, neither charged he the civil Officers to ap­prehend them, and carry them away for endlesse Imprison­ment: None of these things (I say) did Moses; But saith he, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lords people were prophets &c.

Its plain therefore neither Paul nor Moses to have been of your Teachers mind, (to forbid any to prophesy;) but as far distant from you herein (as in most other matters also) as namely becomes the true servants of God, with Satans Ministers compared.

section 65 T. L. How can they i. e. how can they lawfully and as to God acceptably preach, except they be sent? Rom. 10 15.

Ans. Apply this place unto your selves. Ye Preach for [Page 47]hire, and Divine for money: ye are not the men that bring glad tidings: [who deny men may be perfect and free from sin in this life;] that publish peace: [who bring along with ye the black Threats of war, and manifold miseries a­gainst all that will not put into your mouthes] Neither do ye publish salvation, [but keep men ever learning, that never come to the knowledge of the truth, and the end of faith.] Understandeth not the Apostle in this place such a Sending as his also was? who was not sent of men, nei­ther by men, but by Jesus Christ. And though the operati­ons of the spirit be divers, yet do they not all alike proceed from the spirit? Did not the same spirit that made heretofore Apostles, make Pastors also? And dare you that call your selves Pastors of Churches, pretend to have received such office and quality immediately of the spirit? I have seldome known any of you so impudent. Wherefore your operation is not by the same God; neither is your gift by the same spi­rit, neither your Administration by the same Lord Jesus, 1. Cor. 12.4.5 6. And if no man can say, that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost: How then do you talk whole hours of Jesus, without the Holy Ghost? But if ye yet challenge to have the Holy Ghost, then make it to appeare, by shew­ing the fruits thereof; such are love, joy, peace, long-suf­fering, gentlenesse, goodnesse, faith, meeknesse, tem­perance; are these things in you, or so much as the very sha­dowes, or counterfits thereof? rather, bring you not forth such fruits as be clean contrary to these? Let the spiritual man be judge.

section 66 T. L. Whether it be not usuall in our Churches to give liberty to severall Ministers, to exercise their gifts and dis­charge their office successively one by one decentlie and in order.

Ans. Ye seem to have propounded this your practice and order, as having some resemblance and agreement with the practise and order which Paul did advise to be observed in the Church at Cornith: But even in this point do ye greatly differ and swerve from the right patern, and fouly misse of[Page 48]your mark: For 1. The men that you suffer to preach in your meeting houses, they be such as are known to have been or­dained or approved for this office of preaching, by man. 2. Such Preachers, are Pastors or Ministers (falsly so called) of several Churches (so named) and not of one: 3. They first have the leaves of the Teacher of that Parish, where they are to preach. 4. They bring along their Sermons with them ready prepared; and so do but reherse what before they had invented and composed. Now all these things, to omitt many other, were quite otherwise in the Churches of Christ of old time, where due order was observed. Will ye give liberty of speech, or prophesying to any one in your Assemblies, that is not made Minister by, or according to man? That speaketh forth that which God revealeth unto him? No; you appropriate the use of speaking, as it were a Monopoly, to your selves alone you may speak what you will, none may controule you, without danger of great harme and imprisonment.

section 67 T. L. Whether to be hated for this very cause, because we professe our selves Ministers of the Gospel, &c.

Ans. We do not hate you because you do profess your selves Ministers of the Gospel; nor yet at all: Although we do not doubt but ye are hated of the Lord, for this your Blasphemy, &c. Rev. 2.9. Ye do indeed profess your selves to be Ministers of the Gospel, but oh how short do ye come of approving your selves as such, 2 Cor. 6.4.5.6 7.8.9.10 Where's your much patience? [while ye cannot endure to hear a man speak in your Assemblies, though moved of the Lord thereunto:] Where your afflictions? [who cruelly vex, and persecute others, even the Saints of the most high, doing you no harme at all] where your necessities and dis­tresses? [who live at ease in the flesh, fareing dilitiously every day, and vie with the great men of the world, in gay apparel and sumptuous buildings:] where your stripes and imprisonment? [do you not cause both these almost every week, to be infflicted on others, even the Innocent?] where the tumults ye sustain; labours, watchings fastings: where[Page 49]the pureness, knowledge, long-suffering, kindness, Holy Ghost, love unfeigned, &c. Do you not both cause others to suffer the former, and of the later are not ye wholly voyd? Now then is it any way likely, or consentaneous to any sound reason, that ye who call your selves Ministers of the Gospel, and Successors to Paul in this office, be such as yee avouch your selves to be? seeing not onely none of the things a­foresaid which Paul sustained ye likewise suffer, but contrari­wise by your means and malice ye do even cause the same things to be suffred of others, and that most wrongfully. Blush then and be ashamed any longer to arrogate to your selves this name, when as ye do suffer none of all those things that alwayes did accompany the same where it was truly owned.

section 68 T.L. Whether our calling to the Ministery be not that which doth provoke your spleen and bitterness against us.

Ans. Your calling to the Ministery doth no whit provoke us, but your hypocrisie, but your deceit, your covetousness, pride, gluttony, luxury, crueltie, and the rest of your vi­ces: Yet do not these neither so provoke us, as at any time to pull you, hale you, stock you, stone you, imprison you, rifle your goods, &c. Neither ever did we so much as desire that anie of these things might be done unto you, at least not since the time we were called Quakers, our witness is on high.

69 T.L. Whether many scores, and hundreds of Ministers of the Gospel (such as are we) have not laid down their lives in the very flames for living godly in Christ Jesus.

Ans. What stout Martyrs your brethren have been in times of persecution, is sufficiently known to all English men whose ages do number fortie yeers or upwards; for in such mens remembrance, for fear of the Bishops Apparitors, or other small trouble impending, they shipped themselves by scores for another land as is also before touched But these things not so willingly do I remember, as well knowing that they who so fled away were of the verie best of your num­ber

[Page 50]Those you call Ministers of the Gospel in the Quaerie, were not such as ye are, save in name of Religion and certain Te­nets; but were (at least in spirit and frame of minde) as far unlike you, as you are like them who so made them lay down their lives in the very Flames (as the Quaere hath it.) Do not you likewise persecute men for living godly in Christ Jesus, as these also did? Blush to deny it. Do not you and your dis­ciples yet far out-strip in wrong and barbarous cruelty, all the generations of persecutors that ever were of old time? Those executed their malice (for the most part) by Process at Law, with shew of Order and Civility; You or your lear­ners (with your well liking at least) doubt not to commit all manner of harm and savage crueltie not only without a­nie legall Process, but without any Law it self; yea, clean contrary to The In­strument of Gouern­ment.Law. You make them to suffer, by whom part­ly you reign: You make them poor, by whose means you are rich: You cast them in prison, by whose bonds and travels you injoy your liberty. I say these things have ye done partly in vote, and partly in fact, as is well known.

Tell us now ye that are yet alive, or ye that have gone be­fore us, if ever like unkindness to this, ye have seen with your eyes, or heard by report of others?

section 70 T.L. VVhether you durst appeal to the Tribunal of hea­ven, who are persecutors in heart, word, deed; you or wee.

Ans. O singular impudence! O boldness not to be mat­ched! Provokest thou us to heavens Tribunal for tryall of such a question, as almost all (both men, women and chil­dren) on earth can judge and determine, and that without danger of erring? Does not almost everie citie, town and village in the Nation ring and resound of scoffs, taunts, clamors against them that be called Quakers? Is there ever a Prison in England in the which are not some of our friends detained? VVhat Judge is there? VVhat Justice that hath not had an hand in condemning of our friends to some kind of punishment? Many other things I here might recount, but I am even grown weary to mention them: And now to [Page 51]bring the matter home to your own doors; Is there anie one grievance or injurie that our friends do suffer, but it point­eth unto you as the cause thereof, and is to be charged on your account? And this may you not your selves deny, while ye dare not but confess of your manie and infinite accusati­ons, informations, subornations, testifications, abominations, countenancings, and abettings, &c. whereby all these wrongs and afflictions have befallen our friends: And if there be haplie any such among you so far dissenting from the rest of their brethren, that have not yet stained them­selves with the guilt of any the things above remembred; yet likely it is that even these also have tacitely and in heart assented thereto, and approved the same: Or if there bee, who are even hitherto clear, yet I challenge you all to this, viz. To name me the man amongst ye, that openly and of his own accord, hath rebuked and earnestly testified against those many open sins and abuses which their Hearers daily com­mit on those that are called Quakers: Or that hath so qua­lified and disposed them afore hand by sound teaching, god­lie instruction, and example of innocent life, that they be not now apt to commit or intend such violence and fury? But why appeal ye to Heaven? Is it hence, because that ye fear to refer your cause to the judgement of anie here on earth? But whatever it be, if ye so will appeal, I assure ye we dare to join with you herein; provided ye will interpose good Caution to meet us there: for this of your part do we verie much doubt, except ye mend your lives while ye be here on earth.

71 But to what end hast thou mentioned the Marian dayes in the following Quere? You are not much liker those Mar­tyrs in spirit and temper of mind (though you succeed them in name of religion and certain opinions) then the Popes are like Peter, whose Successors they likewise pretend to be.

section 72 What godly men do we call Vipers, Serpents, children of the Devll, false deceivers? even such persons, as holy men have formerly branded with the self-same names: And there­fore [Page 52]ought you neither to call us Raylers for so useing these names; unlesse you can prove that these also who so have done before us, were Railers too.

section 73 T. L. To run up and down starke naked, as one of your Brethren at Exeter, and one of your Sisters at Westminister &c.

Ans. I know not of any of our friends that so have done, as here is surmised: As for one of them, I am sure he was dis­own'd of our friends; and touching the other, whom you call our Sister, I am verily perswaded shee never was ac­knowledged as such a one by our friends neither.

Note here Reader, that albeit so many evil eyes do so di­ligently watch for our haultings; yet the accuser was fain (when he had objected one trifle done at Exeter) to go as far as Westminster for a nother. Thus is the charge not only repelled, but turned even greatly to our commendation and praise.

section 74 T. L. "Whether those that professe such Doctrines men­tioned S. 3. 3. before, and are guilty of such practices as are not to be once named amongst us [Ans. No? what think ye then, of Adam and Eve and of Isaiah the Prophet? for all these did go naked; and that a far longer time, then those above named are said to have done: Is it long of your super-excellent holynesse, and purity of mind, that such things as were done in the state of Innocency, & by the grea­test of Prophets, would yet annoy your eares, if they were but named amongst you?] ("as we have them quoted in Fords Answer to Speed) will stand with that Innocency &c.

Ans. Read Speeds reply to Fords Answer and thou shalt finde his refuge of lyes to be swept away: But what kinde of proofe is this? One of you invents a crime against us; then reports it to another, or prints it himself, and ever after this serves for Iudicial evidence, whenever you have occasion to use it. And generally concerning such accusations and crimes, as were objected or witnessed against our friends by any of the mercenary Teachers, this I say, and admonish, that[Page 53]as their testimonies and authorities are not to be regarded, much lesse believed; because such men are both our mortal E­nemies, and also parties themselves, in most the controver­sies and contests wherein we are engaged. This Ford is the man, of whom when he lived in the Western parts, this jest was carried about, viz. That he had stolen the Bishops Lawn Sleeves, to make him boot-hose topps of; [then was he noted of pride.] I have also since heard of him, that he is a very troublesom man to his Parishioners, in exacting of tythes: [here he is taxed of covetousnesse, and of cruel­tie.] Mark now Reader what kinde of men they be, that witnesse against us. For thou maist ghesse the Lyon by his paw, (as the saying is.)

section 75 T. L. Whether though all inordinate care concerning the things of this life be a sin; yet all holy carefull duties to preserve our lives be not our duty? Eph. 5.28. Gen. 30.30. 1. Tim. 5.28.

Answ. Call ye these holy carefull Studies to preserve your lives, namely, to begg of the Magistrate or Patron power to receive 100. or 200.l. per Annum, for preaching the di­vinations of your brain? To cast men into prison, and be but for 12d.? To begger your Neighbors (whom you ought to love better) with long and costly suits at the Law, and that upon false pretexts, (as is afore shewn:) To See I Bensons book hereof. distrain their goods and take much more then ye claim? To pro­cure a supplement of Augmentations, though yee had a sufficient, yea, many times a large maintenance before? to seek Annexation of another neighbor Benefice, to that you had before, if your friends shall but estimate it within a 100l. per annum; (though it happen many times to be more worth) which practise heretofore in the Episcopal Clergy, was even by the men of your own Sect, greivously censured and con­demned: I say, are such as these your holy careful Studies to preserve your lives? What could the very Heathen have done more in point of self-preservation, then you have done? Even such holy careful duties as these, were those of Micah's Priests and Prophets, (ch. 3. Vers. 11.) Isaiah's al­so[Page 54]& Ieremiah's, & finally Peter & Iudes false Teachers, murmu­rers & complainers, &c. did practice like holy careful Studies to preserve their lives; Where at length may we find those Belly-Gods (Phil. 3.19) if these be not they? where them that mind earthly things, if not here? Would it seem here, Reader, to have ought of the nature or likenesse of a Slander, to call such men as these be, Hireling Shepherds, and ravening wolves and greedy Doggs, that never can have enough? And yet will they say they be reviled as oft as they be so called? As if it implied no inconvenience at all, to be counted true Mini­sters of Christ, and at the same time to be the Devils Servants, in doing all manner of sin? I say moreover, that they that are holy, do cast their care on the Lord, who careth for them; and they that will save or preserve their lives, shall lose them.

section 76 T: L. Whether the penalty of not eating be not to be in­flicted on those that are Idlers in Gods Vineyard, and on such of your partie as wander and labor not.

Answ: The penalty of not eating partaineth to them all, whatsoever they be, who being whole and able of body, and speciallie wanting food & rayment of their own, do yet think it matter of fowl disgrace to them, to work in some honest calling, (though Paul and other Ministers so have done;) but chose rather to live after the manner of Drones, by de­vouring the fruits of others labors and cost; like as did also their Predecessors, the false Priests and Prophets of old time, who did eat of the fat and cloth themselves with the wool, not sparing the flock, Ezek 34.3:

As concerning those of our partie, name who they be that wander and labor not. Wnder indeed did the Saints and Ministers of God in old times, and that very Heb. 11.9 poorely arrayed; and not sate they still in a Wander indeed they might, & that long enough before they found it too. fat Benefice, in the glory of the world and the friendship thereof; as the Minist­ers of Mammon in these times do. Of these things also else­where.

section 77 T. L. Whether there is no labor but that which is handy &c.

Answ. With you it is some labor to invent and write your[Page 55]Sermons, which after ye may recite to the people for mo­ney, or moneys-worth: a practice utterly unknown to the ancient Ministers of the Gospel; save what they had read in the old Testament, touching the false Priests and Pro­phets there reproved for this very cause

section 78 T. L. And whether hath not the mind its labor, and that even to defatigation.

Answ. Think ye that Paul, Silvanus, and Timotheus, with the rest of Christs true Ministers, went not so far in the labor and travell of the mind, as any of you? And yet for all this did they not omit, much lesse did they scorn to labor with the body also, for sustenance of the outward life, (as none of you ordinarily do.) Of this more at large else­where.

section 79 T. L. Whether Paul doth not judge labouring in the word and Doctrine to be labor, 1 Tim. 5.17. And our Saviour saith The Laborer is worthy of his hire.

Answ. Though Paul did indeed so judge, as is supposed in this quere; yet letted not this, but that he used handy la­bor too, and that night and day, earnestly pressing and ex­citing, withall, other Ministers to follow such his example: For our Saviours saying (cited in the quere) it is plain, that he here, by alluding to (or alleadging) the case or right of a laborer in respect of his hire (as being a master notorious and of all men confessed,) insinuates only the like equity and reasonableness of his Apostles taking neces­sary supply of food and rayment of them they should Mi­nister to in the Gospel: There being a certain portion and parity of reason between the one & the other in this behalf: And in no wise doth he mean or imply, that his Apostles should or might lawfully be hired, (even as a laborer) to preach for money, or like reward; or that they might or would preach and teach for sake of the same; for so should he altogether cross and oppugne, aswell what himselfe hath said, (Iohn 10.) by way of noting and condemning the Hireling Sheepherd▪ as also the many and vehement testimo­nies born against this mercenary Teaching, by the holy Pro­phets [Page 56]and his own Apostles. But were the matter even so here as the Quere seemeth to take it; yet ought the laborer in such case to require & take his hire of them who hire him, for whom and to whose benefit he laboreth; and not of others, who hire him not; who refuse, reject, and detest, both his labor as vain and fruitless, and himselfe as a counterfeit and deceiver. See also, §8.

section 81 T.L. Whether Ministers are not to give attendance to reading, to meditate on those things? And whether 'tis possible for them so to do, at least, to give themselves wholly to them, and yet follow handy labor? 1. Tim. 4.13.15.

Answ. Both Paul that so adviseth, and Timothy so ad­vised did yet (notwithstanding their many travels & offices pertaining to their Ministry, and the meet discharge thereof) work with labor and travel night and day, that they might not be chargable to any, &c. And this (beside other causes) To make themselves an ensample to others to follow them &c. (Mi­nisters not excepted) with this command also, or penalty ra­ther, That if any would not work, neither should he eat. After­ward they note such as walk disorderly, not working at all, whom they command and exhort by the Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietnesse they work and eat their own bread, 2. Thess. 3.7.8.9.10.11.12. By these things it doth appear, how much Paul and Timothy, whom yet you have avouched for your Patrons, do befriend your idle cause. See else­where.

section 82 T. L. Whether Pastors and Teachers are not to waite on their office? and whether handy labor be not a means of distraction and hindrance to the laboring in the word and Doctrine, &c.

Answ. Did not Paul, Sylvanus, Timotheus, and the rest laudably waite on their office? yea; did they not better waite on their office then the best among you? And yet did they (this notwithstanding) put their hands to labor, as is a foresaid. Neither is such handy labor more a distrac­tion and hindrance, to Christs true Ministers now, then it heretofore was. But and if I should grant the thing to be[Page 57]so as the quere would have it; yet would it not straightway follow to be lawful, that, to releive their necessities arising by their not working and waiting on their office, they may begg, or take a way other mens goods; especially theirs, who make no part of their Flocks, to whom they sowe no spi­ritual things, nor plow, nor thresh, nor any labor take, (except to do them mischief, and harme.)

section 83 T. L—Though they had an extraordinary spirit to as­sist them &c.

Answ. Are there more holy spirits then one, as this quere seems to imply? The Scripture saith, There is but one spirit, Eph. 4.4. And again, There are diversities of gifts, but the same spirit, 1. Cor. 12.4. If so it be, what mean ye then by extraordinary spirit? Now seeing there is but one holy spirit; and this the Apostles had, let the Reader then judge what a spirit yours is, which is not the same which the Apo­stles had, but some other. Say ye that I wrong you by such a Deduction? what else do your words import? If the Apo­stles had an Extraordinary spirit, and you have not this extra­ordinary spirit; then have you not the same spirit as they had, but either another; or none at all: But if ye Retract, and affirme, that ye have the same spirit indeed, as the Apos­tles had also, but not in that extraordinary measure, as they had it: Mine Answer then is; shew it by the fruits proper unto it, Gal. 5.22. Also I ask, if your spirit be fallible, or infalli­ble? If fallible, then not Gods spirit, If infallible, How com­eth it then to passe that ye can neither preach, talk nor write without so many Errors, and contrad [...]ctions both unto your own selves, and to others, like spirit with you, both having and pretending? Doth this your spirit guide and in­struct you what to preach? what need then of inventing and penning your Sermons thus aforehand? Doth the same spirit ever move and direct you to go to such a place, or people? Whence is it then, that it moves you never to bestow your Ministery upon a leane-Beneficed Parish, if a fatter may bee obtained? whence, that it stirreth you to change Parishes so often, and stil for earthly advantage? Now tell us which[Page 58]of the very meanest of Christs true Ministers of old, did ever do any of these things: Of the contrary part, how many of your number, even the best and greatest of them, these things have not done, and yet do? (unlesse perhaps as to some or one of them there lacketh opportunity or faculty, or o­ther requisites for atchieving thereof:) Now by these notes and arguments, (though there be many more added) it is no hard thing to determine what spirit it is you are guided by; and what is the god that ruleth in you ye sons of diso­bedience

section 84 T. L.—Yet thought it reasonable on this very account, not to serve Fables, that so they might wholy and continu­ally give up themselves to the Ministery, &c.

Answ. The Apostles (saith the Quere) thought it rea­sonable for Ministers of the Gospel, not to serve at Tables; I grant that they might refuse to do it.

The same Apostles command & exhort the Ministers of the Gospel, to work with their hands; are they not here also to be heard and obeyed? But the querist was somewhat over-bold in this place, to set the Apostles against the Apostles; to oppose one authority against another: To the reason of the Quere, I say, that there is not the same Anal [...]gy or likeness of reason in both the cases: For where they command to work, they command even that which pertayneth to the sustentation of life; to the honor of the Ministery, and Gospel, by making it not 2 Thess. 3.8. 1 Thes. 2.9. chargeable to others. And last­ly, charity and beneficence; seeing that by thus laboring, they may be enabled not only to supply their own necessities but Acts 22.24. others also, that be in want Now in the matter of waiting at Tables, none of these reasons do hold place (at least, not in equal bredth) nor yet any other having par­allel moment, and necessity with these. So it will not follow, that because one of them may be dispensed withall, as to the Gospel Ministers, for to avoid distraction and hinde­rance; therefore the other may be also, for the selfe-same cause.

[Page 59] section 85 Object. It was necessarie in the first Plantation of the Gos­pel, that the Pastors should work, because that the Churches then were poor, and under persecution; but so it is not now.

Ans: This reason is nowhere alledged in the Scripture, where at anie time it is intreated or mention made of such working but other and diverse reasons, as both before is, and hereafter shall be declared

section 86 T.L. VVhether these words, Freely ye have received, free­l [...] give, Mat. 10.8,9. are not to be limited to miraculous Cures, and onely to that extraordinarie time of first plant­ing the Gospel?

Ans 1. The Scriptures do make no such limitation of freely giving unto miraculous cures; nor do they confine this free or gratuitous Ministerie unto anie time at all.

Answ. 2. These words viz Freely ye have received, freely give, do relate to the Apostles whole Ministery; and preach­ing was a part thereof. Now they had a like freely received the gift of preaching, as that of doing Miracles; and there­fore were here commanded, to Administer both a like free­ly. And to heal gratis (like good Physicians) and not Preach for money like bad Ministers: Briefly thus; whatso­ever those Ministers of Christ (as such) had freely received of Christ, the same were they also to give to others freely: The gift of Preaching, as well as that of Miracles, they had freely received: Therefore &c.

Ans. 3. The reason of the gratuity or freenesse of this their Ministery, was perpetual, and discharged of all respect to time or place &c. For that, that Christs true Ministery al­ways both was, and is freely received (without money and without price:) Therefore is it also, and that according to Christs own mind and reason, freely to be executed, (with­out limitation of time) With the like probability of reason, (and same measure of impudence) may ye also except, and say: We are not now bound to follow that Precept of Christ, viz. Learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart: Because (might ye say) this was commanded at the first planting of[Page 60]the Christian faith, when yet the embracers thereof were poore and persecuted; at which time it became them indeed to be meek and lowly; but now the times are changed: Nay; may you not by the like way of reasoning, or cavilling, ra­ther subvert and vacuate the whole body of precepts, and directions contained in the Scriptures? And so make them like an Instrument without any strings, save what your own ends and conveniences are pleased to give it to sound by.

section 87 T. L. Whether in this Text our Saviour doth not only moderate the affection, and prohibit a mercenary affection and greedy appetite of gain; and in the meane time permit to eat and drink and take supply of necessaries where they preach?

Answ. Y [...], he doth so: But permitteth them not with all to take from men, meat and drink perforce: Nor yet to begg other mens goods of the Magistrate; neither to sue at Law, cast into prison, distrain &c. (as your practice is:) Neither doth Christ in Luk. 22.35.36. (cited in the follow­ing quere) give his Disciples authority to make provision for themselves, out of other mens money or goods; but out of their own only.

section 88 T. L. Whether requiring that which is legally our own, may be justly styled a coveting of other mens gold or sil­ver?

Answ. 1. Prove it to be legally your own.

2. Prove that it is lawful for Ministers of the Gospel, to begg, and receive of the Magisrate, a power to take other mens goods against their wills, or indeed any other mainte­nance.

3. The Magistrate hath no propriety in the goods of his Subjects; but a meere trust only, and that of well disposing them for the Subjects good and benefit, so as right reason doth require: Now it is plainly against both these, that the Subjects, (many of them being poore themselves, and nee­dy,) be constrained to contribute for maintaining others unto all points of luxury and excesse: especially being such [Page 61]as cannot plainly demonstrate, that their Profession or Mi­nistery do bring any good or benefit to the Commonwealth or people; (but rather the contrary may be shewn:) See­ing withall if they could so do, yet such over large contri­butions and allowances for bodily sustenance, would dis­pose them to sundry vices; and so also lessen and destroy the hope and benefit of such their labors.

4. You covet Tythes, Glebes, Augmentations &c. be­fore they are yourss Therefore you covet that which is ano­thers: (for certainly these belong to some body, before they be given you; else also the giver gives you that which was none of his to give)

5. You covet all these things without purpose of render­ing for, or in lieu of them, any price or compensation of equal value; nay, or any value at all.

6. You covet more then is requisite unto necessary food and rayment, and the rest uses of life; which you ought not to do: seeing ye both begg, and receive these things, as meere Almes or charitable reliefe.

section 89 T. L. Whether all the Apostes did follow handy labor, or rather were not maintened by the Churches, among whom they labored?

Answ. I have shewed before that Paul, Silvanus, and Timotheus (so Barnabas also) did not only use handy labor themselves, but commanded and exhorted other Pastors and Elders also, to do likewise; and that in most vehement sort. And though true it be, that Paul had power, as he saith, to forbear working, and to give all his time to the Ministe­ry; yet did he chuse working rather; as preferring it be­fore not working. And this he did (as one cause thereof) to propose himselfe an example to others. By like he did e­ven then foresee, that in after times there would creep in (by fair words, and the Magistrates power,) such Teach­ers into the Churches, and obtruders; (or that such men should pretend to be ministers of the Gospel,) as should have hearts exercised with covetous practices, and who would take upon them this office chiefly for gifts and re­wards: [Page 62]And therefore against this sort of men, it seemeth, he thought it meet and necessary to fence, and shut up the office of the Ministerie, by injoyning thereunto, and as it were annexing handy labour, well knowing, that now very few would be forward to undertake this office, (to which no outward priviledges were annexed) but such as should be moved thereunto of zeal and good will: And indeed this is one good Criterion, by which the false Teachers may be known and distinguish'd from the true

section 90 T. L. Whether Paul did not yeeld up his right, and wrought with his hands on extraordinary occasions, viz. to avoid the shew of covetousness; to ease the poor and di­stressed Churches; and by his example to win authority to his command, concerning labour.

Ans. If Paul did well to use handy labour for these ends and reasons, Why is it then that none of your Tribe do think him a pattern worthy their imitation herein? Now Paul's ends and reasons for using bodilie labour, we shall here collect, and rank together.

1. That he might have to sustain his life, and supply the wants thereof: Here was he led by necessitie of nature.

2. That he might not be chargeable unto others: Here he discovers his Noblenesse of mind, and Christian amplitude.

3. That he might make the Gospel without charge: Here­in did his wisdome appear; since to have over-burthened such as entertained him, might probably have frayed them (and others) from imbracing the Christian Religion, and have brought them into misliking and wearisomness towards the Planters thereof.

4. That he might make himself an example unto others: Here was his Fatherlie care, and the propertie of a good O­verseer and Planter of the Gospel.

5. Because as he had freely received his Ministerie, so he might also freelie give the exercise and benefit thereof; here is his justice seen: He would not again sell for money or price, that which himself had freely received.

6. Because it was more blessed to give, than to receive:[Page 63]Here was the happinesse of his choise; with Mary, he chose the better part: Are not these ends, reasons, and motives all, both for nature, full of weight and worth, and also for durance of time perpetual? Do they not alike obtain, and hold in all times and places indifferentlie? Are they any part of the old Law? Are they typical, and so out of force and use with Christians?

section 91 T. L. Whether the main grounds of Paul's forbearing to receive maintenance from the Corinthians and Thessalonians, were not fear of giving offence to the one, that were very proud, and of burthening the other, that were very poor?

Ans. 1. Those were neither the only, nor yet the main grounds of Paul [...]s forbearing to receive maintenance of the Corinthians, or Thessalonians, as the Reader may easilie per­ceive, by reading the places themselves, where mention is made of Paul's working, and forbearing to take mainte­nance, viz. 2 Cor 11.7,8,9 1 Thes. 4 11,12,13. 2 Thes. 3.7,8,9,10,11,12. In these two last places, the Reader shall find other ends and inducements for Paul's and others work­ing, besides these here surmized in the Query, viz. 1. That we might not be chargeable to any of you (which yet doth not necessarily imply them to have been proud or poor.) 2. To make our selves an ensample to you to follow us. 3. For we hear there are some among you that walk disorderly, not working at all (not working at all was disorderly walk­ing) 4. And to work with your own hands, as we com­manded you, that ye may walk honestly towards them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

Ans. 2. But what do you say to the Elders and Pastors of the Church at Ephesus, mentioned Act. 20.17. Were they also with their Churches, poor, or proud? And yet even unto these did Paul in sad and solemn manner commend his ex­ample of handy working, not doubting to tell them, that so labouring they ought to support the weak, finally enforcing such their duty, and his advice, with the unquestionable au­thority of the Lord Jesus, who said, It is more blessed to give, than to receive.

[Page 64] Ans. 3. There are the same ends, reasons, and motives, why Ministers of the Gospel should now also work for their livings, (if not otherwise hindered and with-held there­from by their travels, and other imployments to which they be called and commanded of the Lord) as in the Primitive times, (so called) if not far greater; for there be now as proud, and as poor, as were then, for ought appears to the contrary: Certainly in this one thing at least, do the times that now are, even far exceed those in which the Apostles li­ved; namely, in disputes, controversies, objections, and criminations moved about, and grounded upon the idleness and avarice of them who are called Christs Ministers; and therefore were there no other reason but this, this alone were enough (if they more regard had to their own autho­rity, or the honour and success of their Ministery, than to luxury of food and rayment, and other carnal respects) to drive them to cut off such occasion, as afore is said, by work­ing with their hands, and abstaining from taking even vo­luntary contribution; abundantly more ought they (for the cause above-said) forbear to sue at Law, to distrain, to imprison for treble damages, &c. under pretext of a com­petent maintenance; and all these things do they practise many times against these, for whom they never sowed, plow­ed, threshed, or planted a vineyard, being such as do reject and disown them, and never did or could profit by them; yea, not rarely, even such as live many miles distant from them, whose very faces they have never seen.

section 92 T. L. Whether it hath not alvvayes been the cognizance of false Apostles to pretend to teach freely, only to disgrace true Pastors?

Ans. This cognizance had not the Priests and Prophets, against vvhom the Prophet Micah cryed, Mic. 3.11. and against vvhom Jerem [...]ah, and Isaiah in so many places do thunder; and yet notvvithstanding they vvere false teach­ers. Also Judas Iscariot, and Demas, together vvith Jude's false teachers, not only have not this cognizance given them, but even such brand, description and character, as they hold [Page 65]in common vvith all you Parish Teachers; as face ansvvers face in a glass, so you and they in every point agree.

Were all the Prophets of old time false Prophets? and for such to be discerned by the foresaid cognizance; namely, because they preached and prophesied freely? (without mo­ney, and without price.)

Were Paul, Silvanus, Timotheus, and the rest of Christs true Ministers, false Apostles, and for such to be known, be­cause they wrought with their hands, that they might not be chargeable to others, and so make the Gospel without burthen?

But who seeth not how vain and sensless a thing it were for false Apostles to pretend to teach freely, only to disgrace true Pastors? Seeing they also that are, (or were) true Pa­stors, do likewise (and ever did) preach freely. Why do not you also make use of this stratagem to bring those you call false Apostles into disgrace? questionless it would prove a matter of no small advantage to your Ministery; but no re­spect swayes so much with you, as love of fleshly pleasure.

section 93 T. L. Whether Paul did not reckon his labours among his sufferings and afflictions? 2 Cor. 6 5.

Ans. Let the Reader consider the coherent words and cir­cumstance of the place, and he shall find that the word la­bour there is to be taken for grief or pain of body or mind, which a man is compelled to suffer against his own will or choise; and so will the Greek word also very well bear to be taken, and not for a voluntary working, which a man of his own choise useth to get his livelihood by: And yet if it were to be taken in the Querents sense, verily Paul, and those who (with him) were true Ministers of God, did by this and o­ther sufferings approve themselves as such, 2 Cor 6.4,5,6,7,8. A proof, which rather then the Parish Teachers will yeeld of their Ministery, they will turn (most of them) once eve­ry year, if the change of the Beast shall so require; they can (if need be) be Papists one year, and the next year Prote­testants, a third Presbyterians, Independents the fourth; like white wooll, they can take any colour for worldly advan­tage sake.

[Page 66]But I have formerly shewn, that Paul's handy labouring proceeded of his own choise and acord, and that for very weighty ends and purposes.

section 94 T. L. Whether Christ in Matth. 23 6,7,8. condemneth all these external actions there mentioned, or the pride and hy­pocrisie which the Pharisees manifested in them. &c Whe­ther can you fix this charge on us, and prove it against us?

Ans. If you also (as the Pharisees did) do love the up­permost rooms at feasts, the chief seats in the Synagogues (or meeting houses) greetings in the Market, and to be called of men Master, then are you liable to the same re­proof, as the Pharisees also were: But now it is manifest that you love all these things, why else do ye take them? some of them alwayes, and the rest most often; and certain­ly such be very ignorant of the temper of your hearts, as cannot perswade themselves you would be sore displeased, if you should not be led to the highest seats at a feast, or some other should possess your Pulpits, without your license first obtained, or if men should forbear, though out of consci­ence, to salute you in the Market, or elsewhere; or should call you by your names, omitting the title Master, is it cre­dible, that your Parishioners and others would be so diligent and regardful (as they are) to salute you, to call you Ma­ster, &c. were they not perswaded you both loved, and look­ed for these things at their hands? (they do forbear to use them to such as they know do not love them) or that ye your selves, if ye loved them not, would so kindly accept them being given, and that with such elaborate significati­ons of your thankfulness, and being well pleased therewith? What say ye to this, that many of your Coat have been known to be grievously offended, even to rage and evil speaking, when as they have been denied the honor of any of the things abovesaid? It's clear then beyond all chance of a doubt, that men love that thing, and expect it too, which being performed to them, they make much shew of thank­ful acceptance: and again, if the same be withheld from them, they are of the contrary, much displeased, and all of a rage.

[Page 67] section 95 T. L. Whether it be not as unlawful to call any man Fa­ther, as Master, Mat. 23.7.9. and yet is not the word Fa­ther own'd in the Scripture, Eph 6 1,2. yea, and Master too, Eph 6.5. Col. 4.1.

Ans. I do not deny it to be lawful for a Son to call him that is his Father, Father; or for a servant to call him that is Master, Master; but if a man call him Father, who is not his Father, or him Master, who is not his Master, do they not both hereby say that which is in effect an untruth?

Again, when a man entreateth of those duties (or other­wise discourseth of things) that belong to persons, as they stand under such or such relations, he is here by necessity dri­ven to use such names or terms of relation, such as are Master, servant, Father, Son, &c. so that such usurpation of relative names, which very necessity constraineth unto, giveth men no warrant at all to assume or require such names between themselves in ordinary communication and talk, especially when such names are immediately given or taken; as name­ly, if Peter talking with Paul, should have called him Master Paul; a dialect and calling unread of in the later Scriptures, except as it relateth unto Christ. These are the words of a man of great name; Lud. Vi­ves. Com. in lib. 8. c. 17. Aug. de l. Dei. Christ forbids his Apostles to assume the name of Master, to sit high at tables, or love salutes in the streets, and commands that the chief should be but as a Minister; for honor arose with heathenisme, and should fall therewith, and not survive in the Church, &c.

section 96 T. L. Whether Ministers may as lawfully be called Ma­sters, as Teachers, Eph. 4.11. Overseers, Act. 20.28. Ru­lers, 1 Tim. 5.17. Embassadors. 2 Cor 5.20. Masters of the Assemblies, a wise Master-builder?

Ans. 1. It's a kinde of incongruity in speech, to call him Master, who is their Minister, that is, servant: This con­cerneth your respective Parishioners, whose Ministers you say you are.

Ans. 2. To these holy, wise, and spiritual Ministers, these names and appellations did indeed belong: But what is this to your Fraternity? Those you said a little before, were as­sisted with an extraordinary spirit, which was indeed the ve­ry[Page 68]ground and foundation that verified all these denomina­tions and titles, above recounted, yet notwithstanding was it not usual for Paul, or other Apostles, to whom yet these ti­tles truly agreed, to be called in familiar conference, Tea­cher Paul, Overseer Paul, Ambassador Paul, &c. wherefore these things make nothing at all to your justification, who require to be called Master John, or Master Thomas, even in common speech.

section 97 T. L. Did not Paul exhort his hearers to be perfect? and would not he have blushed to have affirmed himself to have been perfect? Phil. 3.12 13. Was Paul therefore like the Scribes and Pharisees, that said, but did not?

Ans. This e­ven the blind Pa­pists could see and acknow­ledge. Eng. Col. at themes Annot. on Phil. 3.12. There was a measure or degree of perfection, which Paul was not then come to, toward which he yet pressed, &c. yet this letteth not, but that he was even then also perfect, that is to say, in a lower degree: And thus much in effect he blusheth not to imply a little after, saying, Let us therefore as many as are perfect, bee thus minded. See more of this before touching perfection.

Neither ought we at all times, in the things of God, to be confined to the notions and definitions of men, but may warrantably so understand, and use the Scripture words, as we finde the same words before to be taken, and used in the Scriptures themselves. And thus it appeareth that Paul was clear of this Pharisaical vice, and inconstancy; it remaines now for you likewise to purge your selves of the same, if you can.

section 98 T. L. Whether there may not be a lawful respect of or­ders and degrees among men, without such a respect of per­sons as is condemned by James, &c.?

Ans. We blame you not for the very doing of any act of kindness, love, humanity, nor yet for any modest and come­ly signification given thereof; but for this do we reprove you, and justly, namely, because ye make so great significa­tion of respect to the rich, as bowing, flattering, comple­menting, standing uncovered, &c. whiles ye despise the poor, howsoever rich in faith, because ye give flattering lying ti­tles[Page 69]to the Great ones of the World; as Worshipful, Honor­able, Excellent, &c. Contemning in the mean time those of low degree. In sum, your fault is this, That ye make not the Image of God, nor any true worth or vertue (most com­monly) the Cause and Measure of that respect and honor ye do unto men (whether in word or deed) but meerly those things that perish and decay: Which while ye do, ye honor the Creature more than the Creator: which is Idolatry.

section 99 Concerning Pauls calling of Festus Noble; It may thus be Answered, namely, That this word proceeded from him upon an urgent and present occasion, and that as a due te­stimony and grateful acknowledgment yielded to the justice, moderation, and fair behaviour of the man; shewed, name­ly in that his Controversie (then depending before him) with Tertullus the High Priests Orator, Acts 25. The same Paul also call'd Agrippa, King: being a title or name of Of­fice (as well as of Dignity and degree) and which truly did a­gree to him as a modest confession thereof, and not in a way of flattery.

Now the things that we reprehend in this kind, are, 1. The giving such honorable titles and nominal additions to men to whom they be not truly competible: And this is a Lye. 2. The giving or using these same in ordinary speech, whe­ther with the men themselves, or of them: And this is Flattery.

section 100 Neither is it in any wise incongruous to our manners or judgment, To call, affirm, or confesse to be Kings, Lords, Noble, Excellent, them whom we know or judge to be such: But we may not so do, when the title, testimony, stile, &c. do lack foundation of truth: Neither yet can we use these words in a way of Flattery, without all necessity, or occasi­on leading thereto; so as if the name of the man had espoused such title or addition, and with it were inseparably con­joyned.

But how came it to passe, thou couldst find no titles of ho­nor given to the Saints, as such? The Scriptures call them Kings, Priests, Sons of God, joynt-heirs with Christ, &c.[Page 70]And all these things are most truly and excellency said of them; yet notwithstanding it would be ridiculous to call a Saint in ordinary talk, King John, Priest John, Son of God John, &c. or after this manner to stile or write them in Let­ters, Charters, &c.

They who expect or require from others titles of honor and superiority, do plainly bewray a proud and Antichristi­an spirit: And Christ himself hath openly forbidden such affection; saying, Matth. 23.10,11. Neither be called Ma­sters, for one is your Master, even Christ: But he that is greatest among you shall be your Servant; and whosoever shall exalt him­self shall be abased. Now if it be unlawful to Christian men to affect any greatnesse or exhaltation above their Brethren, it can be no lesse unlawful to affect or expect the names or words by which such greatnesse or exaltation is signified and confessed.

And is it not of equal vice and unlawfulnesse to affect or assume the title of Master on a Civil account, as upon a Re­ligious? Seeing the reason or ground that makes the former unlawful, is equally found in the latter: namely, Haughti­nesse of mind, and love of pre-eminence.

But how fully and cleerly doth Christ determine this Con­troversie, and put the matter quite out of doubt, when he saith, How can ye believe, that receive honor one of another, and seek not the honor which cometh of God only? Joh. 5.4.

section 101 There were in the times of Christs Apostles they who ruled well, and who vvere in honour rightly preferred before o­thers; and this yet vvithout being called, or expecting to be called Master, Lord, &c. at least in familiar converse.