SECT. I. Of the Title Independent, in what sence it is disclaimed, in what acknoweldged; and of subordination idenied by M^r. S. and pu­ritie in the Church held necessary by him.

Light. Your pretended dependencie on the Magistracie will not ex­empt you from the name or notion of Independencie, (a title di­versly entertained by the Anti-Presbyteriall party, while some own and honour it, some disclaime and abhor it,Mien Ex­am. of the New Quere. p. 2. as I have former­ly shewed) for you give the Magistrate so little power in matter of Religion, thatSmoke. p. 62. 63. you would have all left to a libertie of con­science [Page 2]science therein; cnceiving that, asM. SAltm. Epistle to the Beleevers of severall opini­ons. p. 1. though the wayes be divers to the Citie of London, some travelling from the North, some from the South, some from the East, and some from the West, yet all come thither, though there may be some mistaking of the way in each, so is the gathering of the Saints into heaven. Which if you meane of so many several Sects of beleevers as in this Booke, and some other of your Pamphlets you plead for, you meane it of some who are as farre out of the way to heaven, as if a man at Lichfield should travell not Soth-ward but North-ward to goe to London, or as if at Barwicke he should travell not North-ward but South-ward to come to Edenborough.

Light.The graduall subordination of Assemblies against the Indepen­dencie of Congregationall meetings is made good by the large and learned Booke of M^r. Samuel Rutherford, so that it is need­lesse to take up their defence in this place, at least with you, who (as I have observed your genius) are not fit to be taken for an An­tagonist in any Polemicall point.

And for that you say, they are no formes of wholesome words, it is no more then the Arians said of the words Trinitas, Essentia, Hemoeusios, & Persona, because they found them not in the Scri­pture; And if you were not swayed by a spirit of Libertinisme, you would thinke them very wholsome words, as signifying so­veraigne remedies against the ruptures of Schisme, and uleers or gangrenes of Heresie.

Light. Doe you not know S^r. that that which is Ministerie and service in respect of God, may be rulel and authoritie in respect of men? are there not Officers in the Church called Elders? and are not those Elders Rulers? and those Elders and Rulers Fathers? and is there not a spirituall fatherhood and begetting through the Go­spel? 1 Cor. 4.15. and must not these by the fifth Commande­ment be honoured and obeyed under that Title above the relation of Brotherhood, and Fellowship? and are there not children in the Church as well as Fathers? and may not the father, as the child gives him cause, use both the rod and the spirit of meek­nesse? if not, surely the Apostle would not have put this Question to the Corinthians, Shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meeknesse? vers. 21. of the same Chapter.

Light.If I were worthy to give a Name to the Churches of Christ, I would call them Dependent, for the most of them are subordinate to Classicall, Provinciall and Nationall Assemblies; not Indepen­dent, as the fewest are, and of those few some of them are so un­sound in doctrine that they deserve not the title of Churches to be put upon them; and if you professe your selfe Independent in that sence you have acknowledged, and for that be so called, I pray you S^r. what suffering doe you complaine of? is it any suffer­ing to you to be called by your Name M^r. Saltmarsh, which you owne? and foro the bringing forth of your righteousnesse as the noone day; I must tell you S^r. your dawnings of light are come to this noone dayes discovery, that all may see, (but those whose eyes are darkened with your Smoke) that the unrighteousnesse of those Sectaries, whom you embrace as Independent Brethren, in broken forth as the smoke of the bottomlesse pit, Revel. 9.2. with great danger to corrupt the ayre into an Epidemicall contagion.

SECT. II. The Objection of unseasonablenesse of M^r. Saltm. his Quare justified, and his grosse mistake or wilfull fal­sification of my words detected.

Light.In the Title page of my Examination I said your Quaere was unseasoanble, and gave reasons thereof, pag. 4, 5. and among o­thers I reckoned up foure particulars of the subordination, and ex­ercise of the Presbyteriall Discipline, set out already by Authority of Parliament, in respect whereof your Quere and determination upon it came too late; and it might have beene more seasonable either while the matters were in debate of the Assembly of Di­vines, or when first the votes of the Assembly were presented to the Parliament; but when both Parliament and Assembly, after much debate, were so farre, and so publiquely engaged for the Presbyteriall Government, it was too late for such a novice as you by so poore and trifling a paper as you put forth to offer to op­pose it; which was not like (being of so little worth) to be of any great weight with the Parliament, (though some Indepen­dents who will have all their Geese to be Swans, said of it, it was a very rationall peece, whose fond opinion of it advanced it to the reputation to be thought worthy of a refutation) all the mischiefe it was like to doe (for no good could reasonably be looked for [Page 5]from it) was to interpose betwixt the command of the Magi­strate, and the obedience of the people, and to prepare such as are silly and perverse to a prejudice, and to make them refractory against reformation intended; and this is one part of the Indepen­dents good service they doe to the civill Authority.

Light.In the second Section of my Booke having set downe the Title of your loose sheete, A new Quere, &c. I say thus; He knew well enough the humour of listening after newes prevaileth with our people of all sorts, and therefore being to fish in troubled waters he putteth upon his hooke that baite at which it was like many would be nibling. Where it is plaine as may be, my meaning was that your bait was Novelty, not Truth and Peace, where with I begin a new sentence, and speake distinctly of them afterwards, and there­fore I may well come upon you with your owne Quere, (misap­plied to me) Why deale you not more candidly? Smoke. p. 16. why are you not more faithfull in your interpretation to the Originall?

SECT. III. Rom. 14.23. Whatsoever is not of faith is sinne, no barre to the establishment of the Prosbyteriall Government; M^r. Saltm. his distinction of a State and publique conscience and a personall conscience.

Light. Pag. 9. of mine Exam.I shewed you should frame your Argument, according to the scope of your Quere, rather against the establishment of a government by the Magistrate, then against submission to a go­vernment by the people; and you seeme to take this as a courtesie from me, but you ill deserve it, for you repeat it so imperfectly as to obscure the light of it, and to impaire the strength of it; for you bring it in thus: What the Imposers of Government cannot doe of faith they sinne; whereas in my Booke, out of which you should fairely, nd faithfully have transcribed, the argument hath it more dearcly and fully in these words: Those that set up a Government whereof they are not fully perswaded in their mind, and which they cannot do in faith, do sinne. To this major you adde a minor and con­clusion, as followeth.

Light. Those that set up a Government, &c. This you call my Argu­ment, but it is yours; for I deny your minor proposition, and con­sequently your conclusion, wherein you impute sinne unto the Parliament, if they set up Presbyteriall Government. And you tell us of a State or publique conscience, and of that you say in the last page of your book, it is with a publique or State conscience as [Page 7]it is with a personall and particular conscience, what is done must be done in faith, or else there is weaknesse, doubting, and sinne; now where there is not a full consent, and perswasion from the Word of faith, there cannot be faith properly — if the laws of truth were founded, as the laws of civill States, in a meere legislative power, then Popery hath had as good assurance as any, they have had most voices, most councols. I wonder S^r. how you that so contract the Church into a particular Congregation, and who will not endure to heare of a Church of such a latitude, as to be called Nationall, can allow of such a large conscience as a State and publique conscience: and you reduce it to the same rule that you doe a personall, and a par­ticular conscience, and of both you say, they cannot have a full consent and perswasion but from the word of faith; and doe you meane thereby, that whatsoever the State alloweth must have a particular warrant from the word of God? and that the civill Sanction must be set on nothing but that which hath the stampe of a Jus Divinum upon it? if so, you so much pinion the civill power, as to make it of little use for Government, either of Church or State.

Although againe you be as much too loose (as here you are too nice) in that to the Magistrate you give libertie to different Reli­gions, all pretending to the word of God, though in many points repugnant one to another.

For that of the Apostle, whatsoever is not of faith is sinne, Rom. 14.23. it imports (as some expound it) that all the workes of In­fidels are sinnes, that it belongeth also to beleevers, and boundeth them so in their Christian practice, that they must doe nothing against conscience, nothing with a doubting conscience, nothing at all which hath not warrant from the Word either in generall principles, or particular conclusions; and it serves likewise to shut out meere humane inventions from the worship of God, and the luxuriant fruitfulnesse of humane fancie, against which the An­cient and OrthodoxeTert. deprae­script. advers. haeret. Hilar. in Psal. 132. Hieron. contra Helvid. Aug. contra. Petil. l. 3. c. 6. Doctors have given many cautions, which Protestant Writers pertinently bring in against Popish Traditions, and additions thereto. But makes nothing either against the States establishing of the Presbyteriall Government, nor against the peoples yeelding to it for want of faith, since for a great part [Page 8]of it, it is grounded on the Word of God, and is in no part of it repugnant to it.

SECT. IIII. M^r. Saltm. his unequall dealing in distributing his owne and his adversaries worke: The Presbyterie not like Prelacie in un­warrantablenesse by the word of God. Of Prudence how for of lawfull use in Religious matters.

Light.By what law would you put me to cleare a Church-covenant? it is no part of my worke in the taske I undertooke, and if you may decline discussing the imposition of Protestations (as you do in the next precedent paragraph) though mentioned by me as a proofe against you, and as you doe the objection made from the deferring of our Saviours Baptisme till he was about thirtie yeers of age,Smoke. p. 37. as you doe likewise in the further prosecution of your Reply, why should you take upon you to appoint me an imperti­nent worke, and which is more, that which is repugnant to my judgement? for you say it is to cleare a Church-covenant, which is rather your office then mine, who thinke it fitter to be accused then cleared.

Light. You allow your selfe too much libertie in changing my words, which have their weight and pertinency, from whence if you va­ry, you marre the matter; I said not the Government is but in some parts warrantable by the word of God, but in the chiefe parts, which you will not say of Prelacy, for that consisteth in be­ing chiefe, in assuming a Lordly preeminence over their brethren of the Ministery; but the chiefe parts of the Presbyteriall Go­vernment have their warrant in the word, and why not the rest? Besides, it is not enough to have some parts, or the chiefe parts of government warrantable by the word of God, but it must be in no part contrary to the word of God; and so we may say of Pres­bytery, not so of Prelacie. You say truth must be all one and the same, homogencall in all parts, that is, if you speake to the point, all truth must be onely Scripture truth; but hath not the light of nature taught the heathens many truths who never saw the Scrip­ture? and is any government reduced to practice without some prudentiall supplyes, in divers particulars wherein the Scripture is silent? as for the Elders in a Congregation, how many they should be, whether perpetuall or annuall, and what their qualifications should be for the measure of knowledge, and other abilities, and whether they should be maintained at the charge of the Church, and there are many Queries concerning the particulars of the Dea­cons office, which cannot be resolved by any direction of the written word.

Light.There is prudence which in the habit is an endowment from God, in the exercise a dutie from man, Matth. 10.16. whereby [Page 10]every ordinance of God is to be ordered to the best advantage for his honour, and the edification of his people. Opposite to this on the one hand is the corrupt and pragmaticall policie of such, as when they professe themselves wise they become fooles, Rom. 1.22. and such are they who pretend to perfect the Church of God by their inventions and traditions; and there is on the other hand a neglect and contempt of prudence, which hath brought a con­temptible confusion upon the profession of Religion, and this is most found among the sects most opposite to Presbytery.

Light. Not directly from Scripture (say you) is repugnant to Scrip­ture; if you meane it universally, it is false, (as the precedent particulars doe evince) if you meane it of the substantials of faith and practice, you say true, but not to the purpose; of such as these is the authoritie of our Saviour, He that is not with me is against me, Matth. 12.30. but of circumstantials it is sound, he that is not against me is with me, Mar. 9.40. And though it be for the honour of the word to be received for a rule of Religion both affirma­tively and negatively, yet to wring it and wrest it to serve all turnes, where God meant to leave men to prudentiall accommo­dation of times, persons, places, and occasions, is to abuse and dis­honour it, and so doe most of those who pretend most to magnifie the majestie of the word.

Light. The Reformed Churches are not onely as the Diall to the Sun, but as the clocke to the Diall, and the word as the Sunne to both; when the Sunne doth not shine, nor the diall give a shadow, the clocke must be heeded for the houre of the day; and sometimes one clocke may be a direction to another: and though one indivi­duall person or Church hath not power over another, yet many may have power over one, for the spirit of the Prophets is subie [...]t to the Prophets, 1 Cor 14.32. and whether they have rule & power over each other or no, one Church may be a patterne to another so farre as the word of God is a patterne to it, as Paul said to the Corinthians, Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ, 1 Cor. 11.1. or (where it is silent) so farre as the light of reason directeth.

SECT. V. Whether Classicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Presbyteries be like the Independents gathering of Churches.

Light. Still your worke remaines? You are still putting worke upon me (as I told you before) which was no part of my underta­king, when I examined your Quere; and as unwilling to performe [Page 12]your own, for you say in the next precedent paragraph; it is not your worke to dispute the Interest of Elders and people distinctly, and yet you have taken upon you a Discourse of Church order in the opening of M^r. Prinnes Vindication; I did not so, nor was it need­full in the thing it selfe, being fully done by others, nor directly in­cident to my Answer to your paper; Nor if I thought it fit to ar­gue and to discusse that controversie, would I doe it in a debate with you, for the reasons fore-alleadged.

And for your recrimination, that Classicall, Provinciall, and Na­tionall Presbyteries are gatherings of Churches out of Churches, which the Presbyterians condemne in your partie, it is a very im­pertinent and perverse comparison; wherein there are many con­siderable differences, (that make it criminall in your Church, and commendable in Classicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Assemblies) which besides many other are these;

First, These subordinate gatherings are not made out of any conceipt favouring of singularitie, disdaine, or contempt of en­tire communion with those out of whom they are gathered, as in your gatherings of Churches, but out of care and compassion to them to consult and provide for their good, as the gathering of the principall Patriots out of the countrey to be united in the House of Commons, is not for making of a Schisme from their countrey, but for meeting in counsell and care for their countrey.

Secondly, This gathering into Classes, &c. is with consent and free choice of those Societies out of which they are gathered, as it is in the choice of Knights, Citizens and Burgesses for the Par­liament: not so in your Church gatherings, for those who are left out, when you admit of Members in your selected choice for Church-way, are displeased with your neglects of them, and re­fusall to administer all the ordinances of God unto them.

Thirdly, Those who you call out as Members of your new ga­thered Churches, might more conveniently joyne together in the administration of holy things, as they are by Gods providence disposed of in Parishionall dwellings, then your covenanted mem­bers, who are many times in their habitations as farre distant as London and Dover, yea, sometimes as farre as London and Am­sterdam, Raterdam, Arnhem, or New England: But the gather­ing [Page 13]of Pastours and Elders into Classicall Assemblies, is made with much conveniency, and withall in a kinde of necessitie, be­cause the Churches whom they represent cannot possibly all of them convene in one place, or if they could, they would be too many to be drawn from their dwellings, too many to be admitted to counsell and censure.

Fourthly, Gatherings of Ministers and Elders into Classes, &c. makes much for preservation of truth and peace in Parochiall con­gregations, but your gatherings of Churches are, and have proved the meanes to broach e [...]ours, and breed schismes.

Fifthly, The gathering of Elders for consultation and provision for the welfare of other particular Churches, as it hath sure ground of religious reason, so hath it the honour of most ancient and ho­nourable prescription from theBin. Tom. 1. Concil. pag. 2. Excus. Paris. 1636. fourteenth yeere after the resur­rection of Christ, Act. 15. to this day, whereas your gathering of Churches out of Churches in a State, and a time of reformation, is a new device, never practised, or approved by the godly in for­mer ages.

Sixthly, The gathering of Ministers and Elders into Assem­blies Classicall, &c. is authorized by the Parliament, the supreame Iudicatory of the Kingdome, whereas your Church gathering is not allowed by authoritie, but taken up without it, and against it.

SECT. VI. It is unreasonable to require an undertaking, that the best government in constitution should he faultlesse in execution; tyrannic more to be feared in In­dependency then in Presbytery.

Light. It is a most unreasonable thing that you should require such a securitie of those who have the greatest authoritie in their hands, much lesse should you looke for it from any private man, Minister or other; since no government how warrantable so ever, if ma­naged by sinfull man, can be secured from all abuse, either by falling short of dutie, by remisenesse, or overshooting it by rigour; But Sir any rationall man that knoweth the regular constitution of the Presbyteriall Government, and the experimentall execution of it in the Churches where it is established, may be more bold to un­dertake for it, both for the government it selfe, and for the most probable consequences of it, then any may engage for the way of Independency, and the manifold evill effects and fruits of it, whereof see M^r.c. 3. a p 59, &c. Bayly his Disswasive from errours.

Light.Episcopacie began at such a time as this wherein we live, and upon occasion of such an evill as now is much complained of, viz. the turning of Religion into Faction, and it was taken up as a remedy against it; but when in stead of an Antidote against con­tention, it became an Engine of oppression, by the slothfulnesse of some, as well as by the ambition of others, (for if some had not beene willing to do too little, others had not been able to usurpe too much) Presbytery was by the Reformed Churches restored, and the presidencie which before was perpetuall, (for feare of the returne of tyranny) was made so mutable, that none might be ambitious of it, or injurious by it. And if tyranny have (as you say) a countenance of meeknesse, and love untill it get to be seated on the throne, it may be probable that Independencie is preparing for a tyranny, for it pretends much meeknesse and love, and if it could prevaile, it is like it would soone set up the tyranny which [Page 15]now it disclaimeth in others; For the observation of Machiavell would in all probability prove true in many of those who meete in Independencie,Homines sub­inde magis ma­gis (que) ambitioso [...] fieri, primo enin [...] co spectare ne ab aliis, oppriman­tur, postea etia [...] co euiti ut ipsi alios opprimere possins. Machi­avel. disp. l. 1. c. 46. p. 188. Men (saith he) grow more and more ambi­tious, for first, they see to themselves that they be not oppressed, but afterwards their endeavours are to oppresse others; So it was with the Anabaptists in Germanie, and so it would be in many of the same spirit, especially such as are hardened by the warres in all kinds and degrees of inhumane hostility; and if we may judge of their spirit by the spightfull, disdainfull, and wrathfull writings, and threats, and facts of many of them who sort themselves under In­dependency, and their opposites under the name of Popish, Anti­christian, and prophane, we can expect no moderation or mercy from them, if their might were matchable to their Malignity.

SECT. VII. Of the power of the Presbytery for reformation of manners, compared with Prelacy; the evill effects of Independencie; the difference betwixt a discipline; and the discipline, M^r. Saltm. his precipitancie in writing, and in divul­ging what he hath written of Po­pery in the Covenant, or un­der the Covenant.

Light.In granting that you doe, I shall not need to trouble my selfe [Page 16]with what you deny; it is enough for the present point, which you yeeld, that the Government may much reforme the out­ward man; and for the inward, you acknowledge preaching and watchfulnesse may be more powerfull, (as in the Kingdome of Scotland) and so doe I; and for that you say of the Presbyteriall Government, if it be Antichristian, as you say, it is not like it should be blessed with so good successe as the Christian Govern­ment of the Presbytery; and if that be deficient to reformation (as no power put into the hands of man is every way perfect in any Kingdome) the defects may be referred to some other re­quisites to such a purpose, rather then to Presbytery it selfe; but where other Ordinances are not wanting, either in a right rule, or in a regular practice, there Presbyterie formed up to such di­rections and examples as are found in Scriptures, and the best re­formed Churches, is a better meanes to make men both Civil and Religions, then any Discipline or Government which hath been ordained and observed in the Church, since Popery and Superstiti­on were excommunicated out of it.

As for Independency, which is your darling on which you dote, and in zeale unto it, hate the Presbyteriall Government, we see by sad experience that as it hath prevailed, heresies, schismes, and all manner of licentious exorbitancies have increased, though it have not beene set up by Authoritie, but suffered by connivences what might be expected from it, if (which God forbid) the sol­licitations and endeavours for it should advance to a toleration of it?

Light. For your other reason, that my Texts make against not onely the suspending for a time, but for ever: S^r. in these words (though they be but few) as spoken in my name there be two great [...], for [Page 17]they are contrary both to your meaning and mine; to yours, be­cause there is your misprision of one word for another, yea for a contrary, for you should say for, and you say against the suspending, &c. but as to me it may be thought my corruption, for you make me to allow of your Texts, as making for your purpose, whereas I say,Mine Exam. and Resolu­tion. p. 10. For those two Texts which he alledgeth for the deferring of the Government, (and if there be any weight in them as to that pur­pose they make against it, not for a time onely, but for ever) I com­mend to his consideration, &c. but you leave out the parenthesis, which intimates my minde to be, that those Texts doe not make for your purpose. And whereas you demand how, and when can you settle it, or what will ye settle, or upon whom? these are no Que­stions meet to be propounded to me, (who take not upon me to settle any government) but to the Parliament, who in part have really answered them already, and will doe it I hope more spee­dily and more fully then you would have them.

Light.And the Presbyterians plead not for a Discipline in common, but for the Discipline in speciall, which is most agreeable to the word of God, against which they will admit of nothing; and if to it they adde something (wherein the word leaves them to make out by prudence, and exemplary conformity what is of necessary practice, and not prescribed in the Scriptures) they are not to be charged with doing any thing either against the Word, or against the Covenant.

Light.This passage, as the last but one, to which I might adde many more, shews your precipitancie in sending forth your fancies to publique view; you glory in the quick dispatch of your Pen, and that there may be no delay at the Presse, one Printer will not serve your turne for your Booke, though of no great bulke, but two at the least must be imployed for expedition in it; and when it is Printed, though there be very many and grosse escapes, it must not stay to be revised, that any thing mistaken by a Catalogue of the Errata may be corrected; so all things concur for application of the Proverbe to your Dictates, Festinans canis caecos parit catules; and so doe you put discovered for disavowed in the next Article; betwixt which words there is so great difference, that discovered is for your opinion, disavowed for mine; but you have your disco­very, and it is of Popery, not in the Covenant, but in the interpreta­tion upon it, and the mistaken practise of it; but whose interpre­tation is this? to me it appeares to be yours, by your next words.

Light.And may we soon be Popish under a Covenant against it? very soon; (for so much your pathetick interrogation imports) then S^r. comfort your selfe, as you are a Patrone of Hereticks and Schis­maticks, (pleading for indulgency to them, and toleration of them, though you know the Covenant is made expresly against them) for how soone may Heresie and Schisme increase under a Covenant against them?

SECT. VIII. Tythes not Jewish and Popish, as M^r. Saltm. pretendeth.

Light.How? Iewish and Popish undeniably? as undeniably as the Sab­bath was Iewish when the Prelates so called it, or the Doctrine of the Trinity Popish as Valentinus Gentilis tooke it when he dis­liked the Doctrine of the Reformed Churches in that Article,Quod Ecclesia reformatae adhuc in fide Trinitatis cum Papistis conveniret Bell. praefat. in libr. de Christo. Tom. 1. sccund Contro­vers. general. p 271. because they agreed with the Papists therein. You are grosly mi­staken S^r. in the tenure of Tythes; for though there be a clamour taken up against them, by such as make no scruple either of slan­der, or of sacriledge, and some would change the Ministers por­tion, which is their Masters wages for his own worke, and reduce them to voluntary pensions of the people, because they would have a liberty to begger them, who will not humour them in their fond, and false opinions, and licentious practices, but oppose them as of conscience they are bound to doe, neither you nor all your party can prove them either Iewish, or Popish, as they are allowed, and received for the maintenance of the Ministers of England; And because you are so confident in your opinion of M^r. Nye, whom with M^r. Goodwin Smoke. p. 14. you cite for a worthy saying touching the Golden Ball of Government, I refer you for satisfaction to him, who will tell you as he hath done divers others, that Ministers of the Gospel may hold, and receive Tythes for their maintenance, by a right and title, which is neither Iewish nor Popish, but truly Christian; and there is nothing Iewish or Popish in Tythes but the Assignation of the decima decimarum from theNum. 18.28. Leviticall Priests to the high Priest, from the high Priest to theIn veterilege primitiae debe­bantur sacerdo­tibus, decima autem Levitis, & quia sub sa­cerdotibus Le­vitae cram, Do­minus mandavi [...] ut ipsi loco deci­marum solverent summo sacerdor [...] decimam deci­mae: unde nunc cadem ratione tenentur Clerici summo pontifici decimam dare si exigeret. Aquin. Sum. 22. q. 87. a. 4. ad 3. Soto 9. Just. q. 4. art. 4. ad 3. Lorin. in Num. 18. v. 28. p. 687. Pope, and from the Pope to the King; when first Pope Ʋrbane gave them to Richard the Second, to aid him against Charles the French [Page 20]King, and others that upheld Clement the Seventh against him, as Polydore Virgil Polyd. Virgil. Hist. l. 16. relateth. And King Henry the Eighth taking from the Pope the title of Head of the Church to himselfe byAn. 26. Hen. 8. c. 1. Polt. A­bri [...]. p. 561. Act of Parliament, tooke from him theIbid. c. 2. p. 565. Tenths, and other profits annexed to that title, which were settled upon the Crowne by Statute in the twenty sixth yeere of Henry the Eighth; so that the Iewish high Priesthood being expired, the Papall Lordship abolished, the Tythes paid under those Titles may be called Iewish and Popish, but not that which is assigned for the maintenance of Ministers, because they are yet to doe service to their Master, and so to receive the maintenance of his allowance for his worke, which fellow servants cannot take upon them to take away with­out presumption; their doore neighbour will not allow them a power to appoint the wages of their servants, much lesse may they usurpe upon the Right of God, and his Ministers, to alienate them from the support of his service and worship; for that is ra­ther Popish, for the Pope hath translated the Tenure from the Ministers to the Monasteries, to Nunneries, and to what purpose he thought fit to assigne them, and thence came in the translation of titles from the incumbent Ministers, the making of Leases by the Bishop, Patrone and Incumbent, without stint and terme of yeeres to Lay persons, untill they were restrained by theS^r. Edw. Cooke in the first part of the Institut. of the Lawes of England. l. 1. c. 7. Sect. 58. fol. 44. p. 1. State in the 1. of Eliz. 13. so that if you have given up your tithes to your Parishioners of Brasteed, and told the Committee of Exa­minations so, (as you imply in the passage repeated) you are more Popish therein then other Ministers of the Gospel, who retaine them and officiate to the people that pay them in all the Ordi­nances of Christ, which you refuse to doe; and as I heare, you have renounced your Ordination to the Ministery; if so, there is no reason you should have them, whether they be lewish, Popish, or Christian.

You will say perhaps I make this plea of the tenure of Tythes for my profit, whereas it would be more for the securitie of my conscience, and support of my credit against the imputation of covetousnesse, to give them up as antiquated Coremonies, as you have done; and truly S^r. if I had ever thought them either Iewish or Popish, I should rather have set you an example of resilling [Page 21]them, then (being your Senior, as I am) have suffered you to be before me as my patterne for a conscientious recusancie of such a revenue; But I never read in any Booke, much lesse in yours, (wherein in case of Tythes you play not the Disputant, but the Dictator) which could make me suspect them to be Anti-Evan­gelicall; nor hath any respect to advantage made me of a better opinion of their title then yours, since I have rejected the offer of thrice as much benefit by Tythes as now I have. And if Tythes were taken away, I am confident I should be no loser by another allowance; though it may be I may fall under a misrepresenta­tion, as if I argued for them as Demetrius for the honour of Di­ana, when I mind [...]ing more then the gaine of Tythes, as he did the gaine of her silver Shrines; and I may the rather suspect it from some of your side, (though not from you) because I find the like charge laid upon M^r. Edw. byWhisp. in the eare of M^r. Tho. Edw. p. 1.2.15. M^r. W.W. in his Whisper in his care: wh [...] as he is like Luther in the vigour and freedome of his spirit, so is he, as Luther said of himselfe, of all sinnes the freest from covetousnesse; and on my knowledge, whereas he hath had the offer of many good Benefices, he resused them, and hath no Tythes at all for his maintenance, but a voluntary pension, which is not competent for his charge, or paines either in an answerable preportion, or a seasonable payment; and yet is he contented with it, minding much more the doing of the worke he undertooke, then the receiving of the wages.

SECT. IX. Of M^r. Colemans observation of the Church of Scotland.

Light.I [...] by this passage you have not read the Booke you pretend [Page 22]to answer; for M^r. Colemans experience was not of Heresie, and Schisme in the Church of Scotland, but (as he gave instance) of the Presbyteries usurpation of the power of banishment; and if you meane M^r. Colemans charge for that, (as I suppose you doe) you might have taken notice of an Answer to it in the seventh Section of mine Examination of your New Quere, p. 21. which, though it were in part but conjecturall, is confirmed by a more certain Answer of the Reverend Commissioner M^r.M^r. Gillespie his Nihil Re­spondes. p. 24. Gillespie in these words, What from Scotland? I my selfe (saith M^r. Cole­man) did heare the Presbyterie of Edinborough censure a woman to be banished out of the gates of the City; was not this an incroach­ment? It had beene an incroachment indeed if it had been so. But he will excuse me if I answer him in his owne Language (which I use not) p. 3. & 5. It is at the best a most uncharitable slander, and there was either ignorance or mindlesnesse in him that sets it downe.

There is no banishment in Scotland but by the Civill Magistrate, who so farre aydeth and assisteth Church Discipline, that prefane and scandalous persons, when they are found unruly and incorrigible, are punished with banishment, or otherwise. A stranger coming at a time into one of our Presbyteries, and hearing of somewhat which was re­presented to, or reported from the Magistrate, ought to have so much circumspection and charitie as not to make such a rash and un­true report. He might have at least inquired when he was in Scot­land, and informed himselfe better, whether Presbytery or the Civill Magistrate doe banish. If he made no such inquirie, he was rash in judging: if he did, his offence is greater, when after information he will not understand. And if you put your cause to the arbitration of M^r. Coleman, you will find cause by the sentence to conceive him to be no more an Independent, then we have to take him to be a Presbyterian; and I suppose I may say he is more ours then yours, since he hath put himselfe into the Association of a Classicall As­sembly, in the Province of London; howsoever whether he prove a Participle, or a Neuter, I know you will not be concluded by his either opinion, or practise, no more shall we.

SECT. X. A Comparison of young men and old, for prudence and counsell. Of visions and dreames, where the second of Ioel vers. 28. and Act. 2.17. are vindicated from M^r. Saltm. his mistaking and misapplication of them.

Light.In stead of acknowledgement of your misapplication of Iob 32. vers. 6, 7. where with I charge you, Sect. 4. pag. 14. of my Booke, you lay a charge upon me, for reproaching the younger with the name of green-heads. That the impartiall Reader may be the better able to judge betwixt us both, I will set down first my words to you, then yours to me; my words are these.

For his Epiphonema with the words of Elihu forementioned, which are taken out of Iob 32. vers. 6, 7. Why doe not dayes speake, and multitude of yeares teach knowledge? they make nothing for his purpose; for the meaning of them is not, that Government, or Di­scipline, or any other usefull thing should not be with all convenient speed established, but that the ancient with whom is wisdome, Iob 12.12. the gray-headed and very aged men, Chap. 15.10. who have had the experience of many dayes and yeeres, should be heard, and heeded in matters of advise, and consultation, before such green-headed Counsellours as Rehoboam followed to his ruine, 1 Kings 12.13, 14.

Light.I spake no more either in praise of old men, or disparagement of young then conduced to cleare the Text in question betwixt us, yet thence you have taken occasion to magnifie young men, and to vilifie the old, alleadging the saying of the Prophet Ioel, Your old men shall dreame dreames, and your young men shall see visions, and thereupon demanding, whether is more excellent to dreame dreames, or to see visions: you resolve the Question your selfe thus; Surely, we may more safely hearken to the younger that see visions of Refor­mation, then to the elder that dreame dreames of it onely.

And doe all, or onely, or most young men see visions of Refor­mation? and all, or onely, or most old men but dreame dreames of it? If there be not such an Antithesis betwixt them, your com­parative thesis is an errour of youth, a slander of age, and I shall not doubt, if you take up a duell with me in this quarrell, with the old mans crutch (bring what weapons you will or can) to beat you out of the field, or at least to give you the foyle.

But besides your disparagement of old men, I have some what to say to you for mistaking and misapplying the words of the Pro­phet, Ioel 2.28. brought in by the Apestle, Act. 2.17. first, for the defence of old men; you make as if it were safer to hearken to young men then to them, as if the young men were wiser coun­sellours then the old.

I grant before-hand that sometimes there may be young men, (as Ioseph, Daniel, and Samuel,) who may have a spirit of wis­dome, and thereby may be fit to give counsell, and to governe the wayes of the aged; but setting aside singular and extraordinary examples, compare age & youth in the generall, and the resolution of reason and example will be, that old men are fitter to direct and guide the young, then contrariwise; for in old men the passions and perturbations of the minde (which give great impediment to prudence, (for they are to reason as fumes and vapours about a [Page 25]candle, which dimme the light thereof) are more subdued then in young men. Besides experience (which is both the parent of wisdome, of which it is begotten, and the nurse which bringeth it on to a further growth and proficiency) falls not within the fathome of a young mans reach, but of the old man; hence is it that Solomon saith; The hoary head is a [...]rowne of glory if it be found in the way of righteousnesse, Prov. 16.31. and that by the law, the younger sort were to rise up before the hoary head, and to honour the face of the old man, Levit. 19.32. For with the ancient is wis­dome, and in length of dayes understanding, Iob 12.12.

And hence it is, that the Counsellours and Governours of Com­mon-weales, are called Senators, and their AssemblySenatus nomen dedit aetas, nam i [...]dem. patres sunt. Quintil. Instit orat. l. 1. c. 6. p. 38. Senatus, from age: and in the old Testament they are called the Elders of Israel, and in the New those whose function requireth of them a wisdome of the best kinde, and highest degree, (for it must be such a wisdome as must goe beyond his subtiltie who deceiveth all the world, Rev. 12.6.9.) are called Presbyters, a word in Greeke of the same signification with Elders in English. And for exam­ple you cannot be forgetfull of the Story of R [...]h [...]boams old and young Counsellours, 1 King. 12. nor what prelation is given to the old above the young in that Story; and while you remember it, you should not sway the preeminence on the young mens side against the old men, as you have done.

Besides the Scriptures, there be manifold instances against your fence in the difference of age and youth, I will minde you of some, as that ofTuum est un­decun (que) evocare & ascribere tibi (exemple Mosis) senes, non juve­nes Ber. de Cons. lib. 4. cap. 4. col. 886. Bernard counselling Eugenius to call to him Counsel­lours (as Moses did) that were old men, not young men; and of the Lacedemonians, of whomApud Lacedae­monies ii qui amplissimuns ma­gistratum gerunt, ut sunt, sic etiam appellantur senes. Cicer. Cat [...]. Major. seu de Senect. Tom. 3. [...]p [...] ­rum Cicer. pag. 408. in fol. Cicero saith, that they who are the chiefe Magistrates, whose authoritie is of most ample extent, as they are, so they are called old men.

And among the Romans aged prudence was so much honou­red, that^c in the Colledge of Sages, Sentences were partly valued by senioritie. And there is good ground for this great estimation of old men,^d for great Common-weales, as he sheweth, which have [Page 26]been ruined by young men, have been repaired and restored by old men. Such as Agesilaus was, whom (though among the vulgar E­gyptians, (when he came into their Countrey, and they saw no state­ly traine about him, but an old gray beard laid on the grasse by the seaside,) a little man that looked simply on the matter, in a thread bare gowne fell a laughing at him) yet the chiefe Captaines and Go­vernours of King Tachis honourably received, and were marvellous­ly desirous to see him, for the great fame that went abroad of him and he was famous for his wisdome both Military and Civill, asPlutarch. in Agesil. pag. 629.630. Plu­tarch reporteth in the Story of his life. To him I could adde ma­ny examples of later time, and neerer home; I will name only one, and that is my Reverend brotherSee his booke de Diphthongis aut Bivocatibus. M^r. Tho. Gataker, who though he have been an old man a great while, hath given (of late since his sicknesse, and secession from the Assembly) such a spe­cimen of a pregnant apprehension and faithfull memory, as may assure a judicious Reader, that albeit his body be weake, his braine is not so; though his head have been long gray, his wit is yet greene and flourishing.

Secondly, Now for mine other exception against your compa­rison; In it you not onely give preeminence to young men before old, but preferre them in this, that young men see visions of refor­mation, and old men dreame dreames of it onely; wherein you wrap up three particulars, which you take for granted, but it will be an harder taske then you imagine to prove any one of them.

First, That Revelations by visions are more excellent then those that come by dreames.

Secondly, That visions ascribed to young men are denied to old men.

Thirdly, That young men have visions of reformation, old men onely dreame of it; whereas

First,Duo Revela­tionum modi, per somnium scili­cet & per visi­onem imaginari­am vigilanti ob­jectam, non se su­perant mutuo ra­tione excellentioris potentiae vel praestantioris modi cognoscendi, cum uter (que) perficiatur in imaginativa. Jacob. Bonfrer. in Numb. 12.6. pag. 78 [...]. col. 1. some learned men have resolved that visions are not more excellent then dreames, and the reasons may be; First, because in Scripture they are brought in as Revelations, though different, yet without prelation of the one before the other, as Numb. 12. If there be a Prophet among you, I the Lord will make my selfe known unto him in a vision, and speake unto him in a dreame, Num. 12.6. [Page 27]Secondly, as great matters are represented in dreames as in visi­ons, as the affliction of the children of Israel in Egypt, and their deliverance was revealed to Abraham in a dreame, Gen. 15.12. and the intercourse betwixt heaven and earth, in the ministery of Angels was represented to Jacob in a dreame, Gen. 28.12. It was in a dreame that Solomon had the singular wisdome imparted to him, 1 King. 3.5. By a dreame was the conception of Iesus Christ by the Holy Ghost revealed to Ioseph, Matth. 1.20. and the plot of perdition against him, with the way to prevent it, Matt. 2.13.

Thirdly, as for the matter, so for the manner, Revelation by a dreame is as cleare, and as sure as by a vision; as in that of Abra­ham, of Iacob, of Solomon, of Ioseph forementioned; to which we may adde that of Abimelech, Gen. 20.3. and out of humane Authours; the dreame ofHieron. Epist. ad Eustoch. de custod. Virg. Tom. 1. p. 146. 147. Hierome, wherein he was brought before the Tribunall of Christ, and denied to be a Christian, be­cause he was too much a Ciceronian, and was adjudged to bee scourged, and was so, and in the morning he found his shoulders blew with his beating; and the dreame ofHospinian. in Hist. Sacram. part. alt. fol. 26. & Rivet. Exer­cit. in Gen. 28. Exercit. 123. p. 603. Zuinglius against the Masso, had an evidence of the matter very cleare (though for the Authour he was uncertain.)

But we may say further that dreames have an excellency above visions, and the reason is this: That which hath more of God, and lesse of man, is more excellent then that which contrariwise hath more of man and lesse of God: now in dreames there is more of God, and lesse of man; because in sleepe the senses are bound up, and so there is more communion betwixt the spirit of God, and the soule of man, and lesse interruption in that communion then to men awake; so that in dreames there is no disturbing of the Revelation by the concurrence of sensuall objects, no denying or suspending of assent by examination of reason, as D^r.Rivet. ubi su­pra. Rivet well observeth. And the reason is ratified by naturall Philosophy, for the minde (saithViget animus in somniis, liber (que) sensibus ab omn [...] impeditione cu­rarum jacente et mortuo paene cor­pore. Cicer. de Divinat. lib. 1. pag. 274. Cicere) in dreames is vigorous, being free from senses, and from all interruption of cares, the body, the while being in a manner dead. And elsewhere he^m saith, that the minds [Page 28]of men asleepe declare their divinitie, for when they are relaxed and free, they foresee many future things, whence it may be ga­thered what they will be hereafter, when they are wholly relea­sed from bonds of the body.

The second Particular which your comparative speech imply­eth is, that visions ascribed to young men are denied to old men; whereas old men have their visions as well as young; as John the Evangelist though he were young when he came first to be a Di­sciple of his and our great Master, had his Revelations by vision in the Isle of Pathmus when he was old, viz. in the 96. yeer of Christ, which must be at least the 80. yeere of Johns age, if we suppose him to be but 14. yeeres old at the entrance of his attendance on him, and younger we cannot reasonably imagine him to have been at that time.

A third thing which in your comparison of young men and old for visions and dreames. I may not admit of, is, that you bring it to the matter of reformation, and make it as if the young men had seent a vision, and that old men had but some darke notions of it, like unto a nightly dreame; which is so presumptuous and groundlesse a conceit that your most waking thoughts cannot make it seeme otherwise to any sound understanding, then a vapour of a young mans bragge, or the vanity of a sick mans dreame.

SECT. XI. M^r. Saltm. his insufficient answer and figurative tri­fting unworthy of an Answer.

Light.If the indifferent Reader will turne to the place, pag. 15. of my Booke, he shall perceive your Answer to my Text (which you [Page 29]doe not faithfully repeat) is very insufficient, and if he read your words first, and mine after, he will take them for a confutation of yours, not yours for a confutation of mine; and the like hath been said by a judicious Reader for a great part of your Reply.

Light.In this and many other passages of your Booke you are rather typicall in representation, then topicall in proofe; you follow your Allegory so farre, that to follow you therein is rather to dally then to dispute; Besides, the result of your exception either closeth with my sence, or strayeth from the question in difference be­twixt us; and if in such particulars I do not trace your steps, think not I could not answer you, but that I would not trouble my selfe, nor tire the Reader with trifling impertinencie.

SECT. XII. A comparison of Presbyterians and Independents in point of strictnesse and loosenesse in admission of mem­bers; of the mixture in the Church of Corinth.

Light.That the doores of our Churches are no straiter may be part­ly imputed to some of your party, who have no minde of such a through reformation as would deprive them of an opportunity [Page 30]and occasion of gathering of Churches; which could have no pre­tence, if the Reformation were wrought up to such a pitch as the Presbyterians desire.

And if our doores be set too open, or cast off the hinges, it is in permitting Independents such a libertie of Lecturing in our Churches, to preach against Presbytery, as they would never yeeld to Presbyterians, were it in their power to prohibit them.

But S^r. I beleeve, in some respects neither commendable, nor warrantable, your doores are more open then ours, your hinges more loose then ours, your walles much more wide, or rather you have neither doores, nor hinges, nor walles to bound your mem­bership; for if you had, how could people of London, Holland, New England, be members of the same particular Church, as be­fore hath beene objected unto you? but this is not cardo contro­versiae betwixt you and me.

Light.By this Reply I see (though you take time to answer a chal­lenge) you will rather foile your selfe, then seeme to be foiled by your Antagonist; for if Gospel Churches, gathered by the Word and Spirit into Gospel fellowship, as you state the case, may con­sist of such godly and ungodly members, as were in the Church of Corinth, 1 Cor. 11.21. then for all your pretence of your Gospel way you have no warrant for such a separation as you take upon you to make. Besides, S^r. the separation of people is not to be va­ried in regard of the Church way of gathering into fellowship, which is extrinsecall, but in regard of the difference of persons as they are holy or profane; but with you, it seemes, if the manner of gathering be such as you call a Gospel way, it matters not [Page 31]much whether the matter of the Church be holy or unholy; and indeed, though you exclude from coming into your Churches some kind of wicked ones, you admit of those whom without repentance God will never account of the communion of Saints, such as are notoriously covetous, proud, slanderous, and malicious, who have no more visible interest in Christ then a fornicator, or drunkard, a swearer, or Sabbath-breaker.

SECT. XIII. To whom Christ is an Head, and how; of his rod of Iron and his Golden Scepter, and of his being a Lord and a servant; gentle, yet terrible.

Light.It is true, Christ is an head, and not an head to every body, but is he not an head to his owne integrall members, because the wic­ked mingle with them in an outward profession? have hypocrites any more consanguinity with the pure blood of Christ then pro­fane persons have? yet Christ is head of that Church where re­probates are reputed to bee members; and are there not some branches of the Vine which beare no fruit, and are to be taken a­way? Joh. 15.2. who cannot for all that hinder the vitall influence into other branches, as in the example of the Church of Co­rinth.

And for that you say of a body so leprous, so wicked; as applied [Page 32]to our Reformation in furi, or in facte, it is very falsly reprod chfull, and savours of ungratitude to God, and of Pharisaicall disdaine of purer Churches then those you stand for; wherein you grosly di­gresse from the moderation whereto you protend.

Light.By this Answer you seeme to forget your owne Argument, which was to prove an unsutablenesse of the Presbyteriall Go­vernment to the Person of Christ; and when I have shewed that the Person of Christ is not onely amiable as a Saviour, but formi­dable to offenders as a Lord, having an iron Rod, as well as a golden Seepter, you say by way of distinction that he hath his iron scepter as King of the Nations, not as King of the Church; but if his Church consist of golden Saints and gilded Hypocrites, (for you say it consists at leastSmoke. p. 31. of such as visibly and formally appeare so, and hypocrites appeare so, and the appearance of Saintship is the most that is in them) he hath and useth an iron rod to drive away, and to crush, as well as a golden Scepter to invite and call to his pre­sence; for were not Ananias and Saphira members of the Church after a Gospel dispensation? and were they not ruined as well as ruled, when they were both of them suddenly smitten dead for their hypocriticall profession? what could an iron rod have done more, if they had taken up heathenish hostilitie against the Church? and was not this exemplary punishment laid upon them that the Church might feare Christ as a Lord, as well as love him as a Saviour of his Church, that they might feare his iron rod, as well as love his golden Scepter? sure I am it wrought that effect upon Christians in generall, for feare came upon all the Church, and upon at many as heard these things, Act. 5.11.

Light.In this particular you give me occasion to returne a piece of your owne Rhetorick upon you, and to call you as you doe me,Pag. 17. a faire enemy, for you repeat my proofes so fully here (though else-where you miserably maime and mangle them) that you may be thought to have done as Bellarmine is said to doe in his Con­troversies, viz. to bring in more of the Protestants Objections then he is able to answer; But when you say that I prove onely what you grant, that he is more a King and Lord in his Govern­ment, then in any other of his Gospel dispensations; you invert the order of the words you should observe; for you should have ra­ther said, You now grant what I have proved, for I never knew so much of your mind in this matter before; and you grant so much as might have spared a great part of your Reply to me; for the Lordship of his Government was the matter in question, and that being granted by you, the Presbyteriall Government is not so inconsistent or unsutable with the condition of Christs description of himselfe as you would make it.

SECT. XIV. The Presbyteriall Government not unsutable to the con­dition of Christ; the prevailing of Independents, and of the Sects that meet in Independencie, much more terrible then the Presbyte­riall Government can be.

Light.These proofes were not brought to prove a Presbyterial Go­vernment, but dato sed non concesso, that it was severe, it was not sounsutable to the condition of Christ as you pretended. And for that you say, certainly you intend a terrible Government, though you speake to me, you doe not meane it of me, for you have saidSmoke, p. 23. before, What if such as your selfe, and some other godly meeke of your way propound nothing but wayes of meeknesse to your selves, can you undertake, &c. whereby you seeme to acquit me from the ac­cusation of such rigour as you suspect in others; and if that be your meaning, you are not mistaken in my spirit, for if I know any thing of it, it is farre from that height of heat against any opposers what­soever which was in the Disciples of our Saviour against the Sa­maritans, when they received him not, Luk. 9.54.

And I confesse, in the presence of God who knoweth the hearts of all men, that if a spirit of meeknesse, and sweetnesse, and of all affectionate and faire insinuations would prevaile with the most perverse and blasphemous heretique to winne him to be cordial­ly Christs, I could wish the golden Scepter held out to invite him into the communion of the Church, rather then the iron rod to bruise, or breake, or to affright him from the Church. And though you meane this of others, who shew themselves Zealots for the Presbyteriall Government, you are too inconsiderate, too uncha­ritable, too confident in your charge; for how can you be so cer­tain as you make your selfe, when the thing they move for hath no terrour in it; It is true, that according to the French Proverbe, He that would have his neighbours dog hang'd gives out that he is mad; so your party that would have the Presbyteriall Govern­ment literally suspended, and made away as a mad dog, as if it would (as Paul was before his conversion) be mad against the [Page 35]Saints, Act. 26.11. and breathe out nothing but threatnings and slaughters against them, Act. 9.1. give out that it is an intolerable Tyranny, and ten times worse then the Prelaticall Domination: When indeed if men will lay aside all prejudice, partiality, and passion, they shall finde the spirit of Independencie more terrible then that of Presbyterie. For,

First, that which is so much stuck at as an incroachment upon Christian liberty, and a meanes of the Ministers domineering over the people, the suspensiō from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper, are not the Independents more rigid then the Presbyterians are? for they generally suspend whole Parishes from the Sacrament (except some few of their covenanted disciples) for divers yeers together, without any law or rule at all; the Presbyterians gene­rally doe not so; or if some doe forbeare communions for a time, it is not upon such principles as the Independents maintaine; and they doe all they can to expedite the removall of all scandals from the Sacrament, wherein the Independents refuse to joyne with them.

Secondly, the Independents deny not onely the Sacrament of the Lords Supper, as hath been said, but they deny the Sacrament of Baptisme to all such as are not the children of their covenanted members; the Presbyterians accept of them for a federall holi­nesse professed by their parents; and if there were no more but these two differences betwixt them, it were enough (if men would not give up themselves to be grosly befooled by flattery and calumny) to cry out upon the Independents for their injurious in­vasions upon Christian libertie, and to love the Presbyterians for their mildnesse and charitie in these particulars: but further,

Thirdly, The Independents Government (though to speake properly, Independency is rather Anarchy then Government) is more terrible then the Presbyterian; because under it are united all sorts of sectaries, among whom many are of furious spirits, men of blood and Belial, and such as have made many bloody mas­sacres in Germany, and have threatned if otherwise they may not have their will, (their libertie they call it) that they will have it by the sword; for have they not an Independent armie to force their way against the Presbyterians? I quoted to this purpose M^r. [Page 36] Prinnes fresh Discovery, and D^r. Bastw. Preface to his second part of Independency, but I quoted not their words, now I will, became since M^r. Edw. put forth his last Booke, some of that sect have spoken bloody words against his person; and (though he be so confident in the goodnesse of his cause, and the integrity of his in­tentions, that he beleeves he should lesse feare to be killed, then any to kill him) yet since I finde the Independents deale with the Presbyterians as Ahab did with Elijah, charging him with his own fault, 1 King. 18.17. and that like the beast in the Revelation, they speake like a dragon, Revel. 13.11. and are horned rather like a ramme then a lambe, I thinke it fit that their spirit be better known, that they may be lesse trusted; especially, where they pretend more meeknesse then they finde among Presbyterians; their words are these,

Two Predicant Captaines apprehended, and questioned for preaching in Newport Pannell against the Ordinance of Parlia­ment of the 26. of April, 1645. among other speeches averred,M^r. Prinnes Epist. Dedic. before his Fresh Discovery of some prodigi­ous new wan­dring blazing­starres and fire­brand. fol. 3. p. a. That if the godly and well affected party were thus persecuted, they should be forced to make a worse breach then what was yet, when they had done with the Kings party; telling one Ensigne Ratford and his Souldiers that they were worse then Cavaliers; and that when they had made an end of the warre with the Cavaliers, they should be forced to raise a new Army to fight with them. And in D^r.D^r. Bastw. his second part of Independency not Gods Ordi­nance, in the Preface. fol. 14. p. b. & fol. 15. p. a. Bast­wicks Preface to his second part of his Independency not Gods Or­dinance, he saith thus; Among those they thinke they may confide in, they affirme they will not be beholding to the Parliament nor any body else for their libertia, for they will have it, and aske them no leave; they have the sword now in their hand, and they thinke their partie strong enough to encounter any adverse and opposing partie; and they professe they care not how soone they come to outting of throats, and speake of nothing but the slaughtering and butchering of the Presby­terians.

And though I confesse there may be many Independents (and some I know to be such as your selfe) of a meeke and gentle disposition, yet as Peter Du Moulin said of many of the Priests in France, that they were for their loyaltis not beholding to the maxim [...] of Italy, so I say, for their mooknesse they are not be­holding [Page 37]to the Principles of Independency; for where they most prevaile they puffe men up in pride, selfe-conceipt, and disdaine of their Christian brethren, though in gifts and graces farre better then themselves, many of them being Anabaptists, and of the spi­rit of that ins [...]lent hereticke, who, whenCum ego hu­maniter pro liu­guae mea more cum compella­rem, nunquam a­liter dignatus est mecu loqui, quam si cum cane sibi negotium fuisset. Cum introductus fuisset in Curi­am, voluit primo Syndico assidere; inde repulsus, ca­put oculos (que) tor­quendo, Prophe­ticam Majesta­tem simulans, &c. Calvin. E­pist. Farello, p. 62. Calvin had conference with him, and entertained him with termes of humanitie, vouch­safed him none other language then if Calvin had been no better then a dogge; and he shewed the arrogancy of his minde by his carriage, and behaviour, as well as by his words, offering to sit next to the prime Syndick of the Senate of Geneva, and upon the repulse, by the motion of his head, and eyes, signifying great weath, he tooke upon him a Propheticall Majestie. And albeit some take it for a proofe of the goodnesse of their cause, that they have engaged many great and rich men in it, which makes them, as is trulyM^r. Baylie his Disswasive from Errours. cap. 3. pag. 53. observed, Though the smallest of all the sects of the time for their number, yet the greatest for worth of their followers, yet that in a true Christian consideration makes rather against it; for by getting so many rich and great men unto their partie, and ayming so much at such disciples (with such neglect of others as is observed) shewes that they are not minded as the Apostle was, when he said to the Corinthians; I seeke not yours but you, 2 Cor. 12.14. but rather contrariwise; so that if they would say, what many by their actions speake, they should tell their con­verts; I seeke not you but yours, or rather yours then you. And se­condly, when rich and great men embrace Independency, it may give great cause of suspition that they doe it, because, as rich, they are apt to be high-minded, 1 Tim. 6.17. and all high-minded men are the most legitimate sonnes of lapsed Adam, who would be Independent upon God, and be a God of himselfe, and so they are apt to take up Independency, rather out of an humour of pride, then out of conscience towards either pictie, or truth.

Fourthly, It is apparent to all how ambitious many Indepen­dents are of all places of honour, of power, and profit, of being Members in the Parliament, prime Officers in the Armie, Com­mittee men; and if any crosse them, what wayes they finde out to be meet with them, sending them tickets, and calling them in question, when they know there is no just cause of exception [Page 38]against them, of purpose to cast an awe upon all men, as if the au­thoritie of the State were at their service, to secure their credits against all complaints how just so ever, and to discountenance those who in an ingenuous and generous spirit oppose their usur­pations, which are now so visible to the view of all that are not wilfully blind, that it is matter of great wonder, that the Presby­terians (who are more in number, and dignitie, then any sect whatsoever, and if they were as active as they, might much over­top them in power) are so dull and indulgent towards them, as to suffer them still to carry on their designe as they doe; which in some Presbyterians for the time past may be imputed to their pa­tience, and meeknesse of minde, being loth to offend such; but if it should be so generall hereafter as it hath been, it might be ascri­bed to a negligence, and coldnesse in that cause which they should endeavour to promote with all their might in all warrantable wayes of zeale, of industry, circumspection, and prudence.

Fifthly, Though you assigne the iron Scepter to the Presbyte­ry, the golden to your Churches, the truth is, if the Indepen­dents were once as Independent as they would be, they would be Masters of both metals, both gold and iron; and some of their party bragge they have both the purse and the sword in their power; if so, (and in such a degree as they would have it, but it is true but in part, though too much) they that now renounce appeales to Classicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Assemblies, would appeale to the sword, and then they would be ready to ruine those that would not be ruled by them, to breake those that would not bow unto them.

Sixthly, You cannot finde any thing in the Presbyterians prin­ciples, nor in their practice, as they are Presbyterians, which may be matter, I say not of conviction, but of suspition of such a ter­rible government, as you take upon you, with so much confidence, to charge upon them.

SECT. XV. A pleasant reproofe of a misapplication of Scripture is no offence, against the maiestie of the word; how, and in what cases a taunting speech may be allowed.

Light.Here you impute unto me that, which (if truly objected) would require a penitentiall confession on my part; if untruly, no lesse on yours; that it may be more manifest, it will be meet to take no­tice how my words come in upon yours, and yours upon mine. Vpon your misapplication of Matth. 9.17. Neither doe men put new wine into old bottles, myMine Exami­nation. p. 20. words are these. Conceiving the Penner to be a sober man, I must thinke in this passage the Printers braine was troubled with the fume of new wine, to conclude with non-sence for a rationall consequence; and I beleeve no new wine and old bottles, how new or old so ever, can worse agree together, then the foregoing evidence and the finall sentence of this paragraph. Vpon my words your Comment is,

Light.To which I answer; First, That the Apostle, Eph. 5.4. forbid­ding jesting under that word, which in Morall Philosophy is the title of a vertue, doth not forbid all kinde of jests, towards all [Page 40]persons, and in all cases; for what was the Irony of God to Adam, Gen. 3.22. and of Elijah to the Priests of Baal, 1 King. 18.27. but a jesting reproofe?

Secondly, There is a great difference betwixt jesting at Scrip­ture, and at a misapplication of Scripture; this may be taunted without any relish of irreverence at all to the other; for example, a man may give all religious respect due to the words of our Savi­our, Ioh. 21.16. Feed my sheep, but whenBellarm. Tom. 1. lib. 3. cap. 1. de Verbo Dei. p. 184 & 185. Bellarmine abuseth them, by wresting them and inferring from them the proofe of the Su­premacy of the Pope over the universall Church, I may deride the absurditie of his sequele, without any impeachment of the antece­dent allegation. The like may be said of Psal. 91.13. as brought in by PopeFoxe Martyro­log. Vol. 1. pag. 265. printed London. Ann. 1641. Alexander, to prove his proud usurpation over Princes, when at Venice, Anno 1159. he set his foot upon the necke of the Emperour Frederick Barborosse; the Story whereof, thoughBin. Tom. 7. concil. part. alte­ra. p. 629. col. 1. Binius say it was fained by Henetiques,Vicars Decapl. in lib. Psalm. in p. 91. pag. 268. col. 2. is set out and is to be seene in a Table at Venice; and of theSee Paraus in Gen. 28. ver. 12. col. 1597. inference which some make of the ubiquitie of the body of Christ from the vision of Iacobs ladder, Gen. 28.12. And what resolution can be made of a Popish glosse on Gen. 1.10. (according to the Latine Translation, Congregationem aquarum vecavit maria, applying it to the praise of the Virgin Mary) without such a scoffe as may expose the Authours ridiculous descant to scorne and laughter? which repeat­ed by a learned Hebrician he begins the report withAudi Lector & ride. Sixt. Amam. Anti­barbar. Bibl. l. 2. p. 287. heare Rea­der and laugh. And if I thought your quotation of Matth. 9.17. were as wide from the scope, and as weake for the proofe of that for which it was produced by you, as some of these now men­tioned allegations are, (wherein there are divers judicious and religious Readers concurring with me) I might (reserving all due respect to that sacred Text) entertaine your misapplication of it, rather with a jesting correction, then a serious conviction.

You will say perhaps, (as inSmoke. p.. 59. another place you have done) that mis-application is a word sooner written then proved, andIbid. you would have the Reader iudge (so would I, if he be neither imprudent nor partiall) whether it be your misapplication or my misinterpre­tation; and let him judge also whether mis-interpretation be not a word sooner written then proved, as well as misapplication is; [Page 41]and let him further judge whether these words of yours [I am sorry my younger pen should reprove the aged for is sting, which the Apostle faith is not convenient] should have been uttered by you in a jesting or jeering way, as they are; and whether now you should not be sorry in good earnest, that your younger pen was so forward to blet the face of the aged with such a blacke aspersion, as uncomely iesting at the Scripture, and (being but a servant) playing upon the Master of the Feast, or any thing in his hause, espe­cially upon his wine which alludes to his blood, and which he hath pro­mised to drinke new with us in his Fathers Kingdome.

It would better have becomed you (especially professing such respect to me as you doe in your Letter andSmoke. p. 16. else-where) to have taken my jesting, as I meant it, with a candid acceptation; as the laughter of Ioh was received by younger men then himselfe; If I laughed (faith he) they beleeved it not, and the light of my coun­tenance they cast not down, Iob 29.24. that is, (as the Last Annota­tions expound it) they thought a man of my gravitie would not be so familiar with them, or as Grotius makes the note:Etiam joca mea putabant aliquid occultare serii. Grot. in Job 29.24. They thought some serious matter lay laid under my iesting, and my familiaritie did not cause them to grieve, be angry, or contemne me, or Authoritas mea mihi apud ipsos constabat. Grot. Ibid. my authoritie suffered no diminution by that meanes, or upon that oc­casion.

You frame the like objection against me forSmoke. p. 41. being too plea­sant with your expression of the truth by a starre, because it is the ve­ry allegory of the spirit, and so was that which Barchoche has allu­ded unto, Numb. 24.17. yet was his misapplication of it justly entertained with a taunt, and his name with derision turned into Be [...]bozba, the sonne of a lie, for which I quoted two grave Au­thours in minePag. 27. Examination of your Quere. You say there was more lightsomnesse then light in that passage, and I beleeve there was more light also then in most parts of your Booke, which you have smoked in every page; you will say perhaps that here againe I am too pleasant with your Scripture evidence, but let me tell you S^r. without offence, you are observed to play upon the Sacred ground-worke with too much boldnesse, and wanto [...]nesse of wit, to make many allusions which are but illusions of your owne mis­informed sancie; and they take the Title of your Book to be very [Page 42]fantasticall, and (besides many jests which have passed upon it by some ingenuous Readers, which I forbeare, lest I should make you angry with that which made them merry) while I was writing this, there came to my hands a Latine Letter form a very learned and religious Divine, with whom I have a commerce of Letters in that Language, wherein he takes your Answer (which you call a full answer unto me) to have none other fulnesse in it then aPersuafissi­mum habco—postertorem ejus (scil. libri) par­tem, quae respon­sum tuum per­string it, merum fumum esse, sa­cillime (que) uno tctu calami tui dis­sipatum iri, &c. fume and vapour, which will easily vanish into nothing.

SECT. XVI. Of the Presbyteriall and Independent Government how affected; the slow proceeding of the Church Government made no Argument for it, nor mentioned to the disparagement of the Parliament; M^r. Saltm. brings the Parliaments Authority un­der popular liberty; of the wheat in In­dependent Congregations.

Light.It is no part of mine undertaking to prove the Presbyteriall Government to be Christs Government, nor is it needfull so to doe; for I have told you where it is done already, which no man hath refuted nor can doe; nor is it needfull to assert every part of it by expresse Scripture; and if the Independent platforme be ac­cording to the pure Gospel patterne, as you phrase it, why have not your Brethren cleared that doubt all this while, having been ingaged thereto by promise, and often called upon for perfor­mance thereof?

Light.I see it is not strange with you to mistake, or pervert a plaine truth; for did not you plead against the speedy setling of the Presbyterian Government by the example of Christ? and was not mineSee Sect. 8. p. 23. of mine Examination. Answer to this purpose, Christ was not so long in set­ling of his Government, nor the Parliament and Assembly so hasty as you pretended. Is this a proofe of mine opinion, I pray you, or a confutation of yours?

Light.Here you make as if I spake without due respect, or rather with termes of reproach unto the State or Parliament, for bringing in the Government as fluttering upon the limetwigge at West­minster; and thereupon you say, Sure the State or Parliament may deserve better of any of the Assembly then to be thought their Retar­ders or limetwigs: and you strive to straine up the words to an higher degree of guilt, by an aggravation of ingratitude, in that they have honoured them above their Brethren.

To which I answer: First, that my words, Sect. 9. p. 26. are these; It hath been, if not the fault, yet the ill hap of our Church and State, to have the Government fluttering upon the limetwig of deliberation at Westminster, when it should be upon the wing of actuall execu­tion all over the Kingdome.

Secondly, that if I had mistaken termes of diminution of the dignitie of the Parliament, for termes of honour, and gratefull ac­knowledgement, [Page 44]there is no reason that for my fault the Assem­bly should be involved in the imputation of an offence; since I did not write by any either command from them, or consultation with them.

Thirdly, confining the charge to my selfe, I may challenge you for a fayling in charity, and memorie. First, in charitie, in that you make so ill a construction of my words both really, and per­sonally; really interpreting the limetwig in a sence of defilement, whereas I meant it onely as a let and impediment; (which may be­fall the deliberations of the best and wisest men) and personally, in turning the terme upon the State or Parliament, in an offensive signification towards them, whom I never meant, nor mentioned with a thought or expression of disparagement. Secondly, in me­mory, in that you forgate a precedent passage in my Booke, which might (had you remembred it) have prevented such a sinister sur­mise of the metaphor I used; my words which manifestly hold out a confutation of your corrupt glosse on these now in question, are these,

Yet they cannot make that speed with the Government which by most is desired, and very much desired by themselves (as we of the Assembly can witnesse who have often beene sent to by that Honou­rable Senate to quicken our worke, and to ripen our debates to a full resolution) because as with us the libertie of speaking (wherein e­very one is frce to propose and prosecute any doubt) prolonged the Go­vernment in our hands; so the like libertie in the Honourable Hon­ses (or rather our libertie is like theirs, it being the prototypon) longthens the debates, and delayes the votes of that most Honourable Senate; and so much the more, because they are more in number then we in our Synod, and because their determinations are finall as ours are not.

But when you have made the worst sence you can of them, you come in with this allay; it may be you call your dissenting Brethren the limetwigs. I doe not that neither, for I doe not so confound persons and things as to meane men to be the limet wigs, but their deliberations, objections, and obstructions that step in, and keepe out deciding votes, and resolutions of debates; wherein if I mean your Independent Brethren had their part, and fault, I doe them [Page 45]no wrong; but then you make as if I wronged my selfe, defiling my argument with a limetwigge and be wraying our slow procee­ding to have beene rather of constraint then conscience; which is a me are inconsequence, for we neither endeavoured, nor desired such a precipitation of conclusions as should not admit of necessary or competent consideration, and discussion beforchund; nor such a slownesse of proceeding as should wiredraw a dispute for a weeke or a fortnight, which would not have taken up one whole day, if there had not beene some such among us asRem planam argumentatione facere dubiam. Hieron. advers. Ruffin. Tom. 2. operum p. 217. Hierome tax­ [...]th for cavilling a cleare truth into abscuritie.

And now I have cleared my selfe of your imputation of disre­spect to the State, or Parliament, I may rooriminate some con­tempt in you towards that most Honourable Assembly.

For, First, you seeme to thinke it a matter of praise to your partic, thatSo in your Letter to me. you are more on the Magistrates side then the Magi­strate on yours; as if the Magistrate were bound to tolerate your way against law, and the pence and union of Church and State, as much as you are bound to allow them their power, and authoritie for preservation of the publicke welfare.

Secondly. In your designe for Pence, (as farre as you dare) you project a way to decline the Magistrates Authoritie about reli­gious matters, which an advised Reader may perceive, though your termes be very cunningly chosen, and covertly couched to­gether, where you say,Smoke. p. 4. nu. 13. Let not abose beleevers who have the ad­vantage of the Magistrate, striue to make any unwarrantable use of it one against another, because Scripture principles are not so cleare for it.

Thirdly, you for your part cast a notorious calumnie upon the Parliament; callingIbid. p. 25. the maint enance of the Ministers by Tythes undeniably Iewish and Popish, which are confirmed by Ordinance of Parliament, whereof you cannot be ignorant; and it cannot be avoided if Tythes be of that nature, but that you make the Parlia­ment Patrones of Iudaisme and Popery, and that is such a noto­rious reproach, as you should not have entertained in your most secret thoughts, nor whispered in the care of any friend, much lesse have proclaimed it in Print, in such peremptory termes as you have done.

Fourthly, you give up the Magistrates Authoritie to the peoples libertie, leaving it in their choice to receive, or refuse Church-go­vernment, as they like or dislike it; for thus you would have it propounded unto them,Smoke. p. 14. People, here is a Government, which to some of us seemeth to be a government according to the Word of God, take it and examine it, if you be so perswaded, and if the Word of God hold it forth clearely, embrace it; if not, doe not obey any thing in blinde and implicite obedience; this were faire dealing with con­science. But it were foule dealing with the Magistrate, yea and the people too, for it would bring all to Anarchie and confusion, as Iudg. 17.6. If you say, you meane it in respect of the Assembly or Ministers, they present it not to the people untill the Parlia­ment have ratified it by their Authoritie; and so your meaning must be, that they should put that to the peoples choice, which the Parliament hath concluded in their Votes, and imposed both on Ministers, and people by their civill Sanction; and what is this but to subject the Supreame Authority to the popular liberty?

Light.Truly S^r. if you came truly by your wheat I would allow it you; but though I allow that you have wheat in fact, I say you have not that wheat in right, which you have gathered out of other Churches; for your gatherings are upon the grounds of Brow­nisme, with injury and calumnie of the Churches from whence your covenanted members are collected.

SECT. XVII. The settling of Government falsly suggested to be hereticall, with an implicit reproach upon the Parliament. Of the truth of Sleidans story of the Anabaptists in Germany. A rash censure of Luther, and the Lutherans in Germany for opposing them. A caveat to England to take warning by Germany. The Mini­sters practice slandered, and the Magistrate dishonoured by M^r. Saltm.

Light.What settling doe you meane? the debates, and votes, and ad­vice of the Assembly to the Parliament, (which is all they doe) are no settlings of any thing; for when they are presented to them, they come under their examination againe; but nothing is settled in Government, untill, after their discussion and resolu­tion, their civill Sanction be set upon it; and how should this be an heresie, as great an heresie as we complaine of? we complain of all heresies, what will be the consequence of this implicit charge? can the Parliament settle heresie and not be hereticks? nay worse then so, for it is farre worse to settle an heresie, and to authorise it to so many thousands as are under the power of the Parliament, then for any, or many particular persons to hold an heresie. And whereas you intimate a change of my minde, so farre as that I may be like, after the example of Paul, to preach for that Doctrine which now I destroy, I trust (not in my selfe, but in the support of Divine grace) that I shall alwaies be so farre op­site or adverse unto you, untill you be settled, as to be constant to the truth I have beleeved, and professed, while you runne your selfe giddy in the circle of erroneous, or hereticall opinions.

Light.You say you dare not beleeve my Historian against the Anaba­ptists, more then an Oxford Pen concerning the Battels of the Parliament, from whence you shall read nothing but Rebellion ra­ther then Religion; as if the warre of the Anabaptists were as warrantable as that of the Parliament, or Iohn Sleydan as con­temptible, and incredible a Writer as Mercurius Aulicus, or Mercurius Academicus; which makes me thinke you have not read Sleydan, for if you had, you would observe and acknow­ledge in him as many [...] of a true Historian as in most, whe­ther of the ancient or latter Ages, and so the most judicious Pro­testants esteeme of him; The Papists I confesse undervalue him as you doe, and some of themSurius Pre­face in Ioh. Naucler. gene­rat. Beruard. Dorhof. Apodeix. Cal­vinist. non esse Aug. Confes. c. 4. Claud. Verderii Censiones. p. 8. b. vilifie him, as if he partially in­clined to the Lutheran party against the Popish; yet some of them give him the praise of a good Historian, asJoh. Bod. Method. hist. c. 6. p. 48, 49. Iohn Bodine in his Method of history; and for the story of the Anabaptists and their fanatick fancies, and furious uprores, they are not onely re­corded by Sleydan, but by others, as by^c Philip Lonicerus, and by^d Bullinger in his Booke against that Sect; by^e Spanhemius, by^f Conradus Heresbachius, ^g Theodorus Strachius, and by^h Lamber­tus Hortensius.

Light.This againe sheweth that you have not read, or not well con­sidered of the principles and practices of the Anabaptists; which were such both against God and man, as could not consist with the safetie either of the Church or State; and therefore your censure of the sinne and judgement of Germany, and of the Lu­therans, is a presumptuous perching into Gods Tribunall.

Light.Good counsell I confesse, but not in your sence, in favour of such Sects, or feare of opposing their fancies, or stopping their proceedings; but let England take warning by Germany for being too indulgent to them, upon their illusive pretences of more il­lumination, and spirituall communion with God, then other men enjoy.

Light. If you speake this to the Ministers, their warfare is none other then spirituall; nor is the Magistrate their minister, to take Secta­ries with swords or staves if their transgressions deserve it, since therein they doe their owne worke, whereto by their office they are obliged; and when they doe so, you should not so disparage the Magistrates as to match them with such wicked Officers as set upon our blessed Saviour, and with violent hands violated the Majestie and Piety of his Person; nor so honour such hereticall Incendiaries, and slaughter men as those Anabaptists were, as to compare them to Christ. And for your caveat against shedding of spirituall blood, if you meane by that phrase the blood of Secta­ries, or Hereticks, whom some take to be more spirituall then o­ther men, they are many of them very carnall Gospellers; and if spirituall, rather such as are led by a wicked spirit, the suggester of hereticall untruths, and tempter to diabolicall blasphemies, and outrages, then such as are guided by the Spirit of truth and holi­nesse: and if by spirituall blood you meane (as the most judicious commonly use and understand the phrase) the blood of soules; it is that which ingageth the Magistrates to represse hereticall Teachers, for by drawing others to heresie they are guilty of the blood of soules; and they are all guilty of that blood who doe not all they can, according to their place and power, to prevent the shedding of it by seducing Doctors; for zeale in this cause I have cited some lively and vigorous sayings of the Ancients in my for­mer Sect. 12. p. 13. Book, to which I remit you.

light. To your exception we have not yet any experience of our new Clergie, myExamination of the New Querie. Sect. 10. p. 32. Answer was, Then they cannot yet be charged with misgovernment of the people; and how can there be experience of them, if there be no Government to try them withall? but we have experience of much evill for want of Government, asIbid. I told you before. And for that you say, your Statists will tell you it is not safe trying experience with States, which you illustrate by a similitude of a Physician casting his Patient into a disease to try a cure on him: I like it very well in those, and being rightly applied it makes much against you, and the toleration you plead for, for we have found it by wofull experience, that some politick Mountebankes have made a perillous experiment upon our State by connivence at, and pressing for a toleration of many erroneous, and some very hereticall Sects; the cure whereof the longer it is delayed will be more difficult and more dangerous to the soules of the people, in whom errour and heresie spread, and eat like a canker, or gan­grene as in the Greeke, 2 Tim. 2.17.

SECT. XVIII. The Toleration desired by M^r. Saltm. neither safe nor sound, opposite to the minde of Paul, 1 Cor. 1.10. Gal. 5.10.12. Of the compa­rison of the two ambitious Brethren to ten more humble and moderate; The Presbytery not proved by Magistrates, though approved by them; Of the pretended truth of Sectaries, and of the prescription of Bishops and Independents.

Light.In this you have delivered a most unsafe, and unsound para­dox, which is disproved by the experience of former ages, and foraine parts; but most of all by that of our owne Kingdome within these foure yeeres last past: witnesse M^r. Edwards his last Booke the Gangrene, which if you were so unpatiall and patient, as to read without prejudice or passion, you could not patiently review your own writing in this particular.

light. In this you are opposite to Paul and your selfe both; to Paul, who expressely presseth to union in minde, in judgement, in speech; 1 Cor. 1.10. and wisheth them cut off who trouble the Church, Gal. 5.12. whereas you would have sects to be left to themselves: and to your selfe; whereas before you would have them let alone, to die out most naturally without noise, now you would have them opposed with words, as Paul did; but can there be words of opposition without any noise? And for that you say against the coercion or execution by the sword, it is impertinent­ly proposed to the Presbytery, who take not upon them to turne the edge of authoritie any way; and prejudiciall to the prudence and power of Magistrates, as if they knew not when to use it, un­lesse they were admonished and moved by others unto it, or might not use it against disturbers of the publique peace of Church and State.

Light.There meeds none other answ, to this quest. then to repeat your [Page 53]words and mine aright: Your selfe said See my Exa­mination of the New Querie. Sect. 10. p. 34. I question not but some Presbyterians may be like the ten, yet there are others like the two brethren, who strive who should be the greatest. To which mine An­swer is, If we keepe the proportion you brought in, and make applica­tion accordingly, we may say, for two ambitious Presbyterians it is like there may be ten that are more modestly and humbly minded, then to affect such a preeminence above their brethren.

Light.How farre the Presbyteriall government is Christs way is suf­ficiently set forth by the forecited Authour, who hath professedly handled it; but who I pray you offers to prove by the Magistracy that the Presbytery is Christs way? they may prove it to the Ma­gistrate, but to doe it by the Magistrate, is neither undertaken, nor required by any.

Light.If that were your minde, you would rather close with Pres­byterians, whom you cannot deny to be sound and Orthodox in all matters of faith, and godlinesse, then with so many extrava­gant Sectaries, who are so contradictory both to the Scripture, and to themselves, in their opposite Tenets, that there must needs be very much untruth in their Tenets.

Light.In this and some lines next following you take that for granted, [Page 54]which we cannot yeeld, nor can you ever prove, viz. that your In­dependency is purely Evangelicall; which if you can make good (but the Texts you have crowded together at the end of your opening of M^r. Prinnes Vindication will not doe it) you shall make me of your Religion, when you let me know which it is you will choose, and stand to when you have chosen.

SECT. XIX. Of the pretended modesty and humilitie of the Independents, by way of comparison with the Presbyterians.

Light.And if your Independent Government were set up, which you accompt an Evangelicall and Scripture Government, Christs golden Scepter, Christ upon his Throne, should that Government be above the Civill Government, or coordinate with it? would you set up this government to rule the other, or tutor the other? when you have answered these Queries put upon Independency, you will see it will not be difficult to answer the like concerning Presbyte­ry; yet it is evident to all that make any serious observation on both wayes, that the Presbyteriall Government is more mode­rate, more subordinate to the Parliamentary Government then the Independent, because that is humbly submitted to the debate of the Parliament for approbation of it, and waiteth for their Ci­vill establishment before any part of it is put into execution and practise, the Independent Government (in this respect Indepen­dent on the Parliament, as well as on Classicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Assemblies) comes under no such triall of them, but is set up without any authoritie from them.

Light.Here is a great deale of aggravating Rhetoricke, to bring in a suspicion of a vast, and unlimited domination of the Presbytery; and I pray you, S^r, if Independency were the Parliaments dar­ling, as you desire it, would nor you wish it, and, if you could, pro­cure it to be set up in every Citie and Towne in England? would not you that think it a good government, the best government, ad­vance your good opinion of it, & well-wishings to it, according to the maxime, Bonum que communius, comelius? Every good thing the more common, the more commendable? We observe your se­dulitie in spreading your opinions into remote regions, and cannot but conceive, by your zeale and activitie for your cause, that you are ambitious, like the Spaniard, to enlarge your Religion, as he his Dominions; whereofMyraeus Com­ment. de bello Bohemic. p. 7. Myraeus saith, that the Sunne never sets, but alwayes shines in some place or other where he raignes.

Light.And let the Reader judge how much of roving fancie and fond affection, how little judgement is in this paragraph. Which Go­vernment, say you, affects dominion? &c. speake properly Sir, and the truth will better appeare, and be more ready for sentence and [Page 56]judgement, and then your question will be; which sort of those that stand for Government (for the government as abstracted from them hath no affections at all) affect dominion more? You say poore Scripture government can be content to sit down in a village, to the Church in thy house, &c. where you assume and presuppose (which I deny) that Independency is a government either poore or pure according to the Scriptures. And for Independent Mini­sters when you see them so placed in the Citie, in the chiefe Citie of the Kingdome, culling out of mens charges the fairest and fat­test of their flocks to be the materials and members of their new­gathered Churches, and so ordering their Sermons, and covenant­ing with their hearers, that they have the most populous congre­gations, all sects coming to heare them, and adhering to them as to their Patrons, who will not come to the Sermons of the most Orthodox and able Preachers of the Presbyteriall way;

When you know, or may know that most of them are emi­nently richer then other Ministers, how can you, how dare you bragge of the humilitie, and povertie of Independency sitting down contented with a village? especially, when none of those who set up Independency in England planted themselves in a vil­lage, except in vicinitie to some great Citie where they might have the profit, and comfort, and the best accommodations of Ci­tie and Countrey?

And for the small Church in a house, or a particular Citie, in a Countrey, not over a Countrey, in Asia, not the Church of Asia; This makes no more for Independency then for Presbytery, when there were too few professing the faith to be sorted into Con­gregations Classicall, Provinciall and Nationall Assemblies; and so your instance cannot be a fit patterne for these times, wherein the profession of the Gospel is received all over the Kingdome.

SECT. XX. Whether Christ, if he would have a nationall comprehensive Church, was bound to have begun the practise of it over whole Kingdomes, as M^r. Saltm. saith; and whether importeth more pride, to desire a subordination of Assemblies, Parochiall, Classicall, &c. then to be adverse to it.

Light.To this I oppose your own words, both in yourNew Querie repeated in my Examination. Sect. 12. p. 38. Querie and in your Smoke, in both which places, you tell your Reader that the publication of the Gospel and the proposall of Church govern­ment were brought in at distance: heresies, say you, might have growne from Iohns first Sermon to Pauls Epistles, and the sending of the Spirit, but you see there was no government setled till afterwards upon the people of Gods and in your last you tell me, thatSmoke. p. 54. you shew­ed me that no government began with the Gospel manifestation, by which (say you) I made it appeare, that if government had been of such morall necessitie, why was it not given out with the Gospels first giving out?

Albeit then the Gospel began not with the conversion of Kings and whole Kingdomes, yet the progresse of it hath been so prospe­rous as to prevaile so farre, and with the extent of it, may the go­vernment of the Gospel be extended also, and it may be set up after it, by your own confession rather then with it.

Light. What? ought Christ, or was he bound in the way of righteous­nesse to begin the Gospel with conversion of Kings, and whole Kingdomes, if he meant to have such a Nationall and comprehen­sive Church as the Presbyterians plead for? was he not free to be­gin the publication of it where he pleased, in the wildernesse of Iudea, rather then in the Citie Ierusalem? and to whom he plea­sed, to Shepheards in the field, rather then to Augustus in the Court?

If it had begun there; First, It might have been suspected as a Politicke devise, like that whichMachiav. disp. lib. 1. cap. 11. p. 63. Machiavel commends in Ro­mulus and Numa, setting up religion by fained revelation.

Secondly, Then the Doctrine of the Gospel, condemned as fol­ly by supercilious and secular wise men, 1 Cor. 1.23. had not ap­peared so wise and powerfull as it was, vers. 18, 19, 20. of the same Chapter; nor,

Thirdly, Had it had so many illustrious confirmations, both by miracles, and martyrdomes, as we find upon record both in the Scriptures, and Ecclesiasticall Histories.

And was it not in his own choice to make his own pace for the proceeding both of Gospel and Government? If you will so con­fine Christ to your wayes of working, you make him Dependent, while you claime an Independent priviledge to your selfe.

And for that you say, for practice or precept, to order and com­mand us in what we obey, we have both in the Gospels of our Savi­our, and Epistles of the Apostles, and the History of their Acts, (according to which the Assembly have given up their advice to the Parliament) warrant for Church Government, and so we hope it will come down from them by a Parliamentary approba­tion, and constitution for the establishment thereof throughout the whole Kingdome. And yet is not the Presbyteriall Govern­ment more ambitious, or domineering then the Independent; Nay, let the Indifferent Reader observe, and consider the diffe­rence, and let him then resolve, whether the Presbyterian or In­dependent be more affected to preeminence, or more willing to come under rule and government.

First, The Presbyterians carnestly desire the union, whereto [Page 59]the Apostle emphatically exhorteth the Christian Corinthians; Now I beseech you brethren, by the Name of our Lord Iesus Christ, that ye all speake the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that ye be perfectly ioyned together in the same minde and in the same iudgement, 1 Cor. 1.10.

Secondly, This union cannot be without a rule of consent; the rule of consent cannot be of any force, unlesse it have the power and obligation of a law; this law requireth, as well subordination, as union; and this subordination is agreeable not onely to reason, but to Religion and Scripture, for the spirits of the Prophets are subiect to the Prophets, 1 Cor. 14.32.

Thirdly, The Presbyterians, who yeeld to this subordination, especially to the Superiour Assemblies, not knowing, and the most of them not expecting to be members either of Provinciall, or Nationall Assemblies, doe all of them in their allowance of gra­duall appeales submit themselves to the consures of others, which is an act not of dominion, but of subjection. But the Independents will be as diffusive in their Church-way, and grow on from Cities to Countries, from Countries to Kingdomes, and will be like lit­tle Kings, or Free States in their own Congregations, and will ad­mit of no subordination, or submission to any Ecclesiasticall Assembly whatsoever, though there be many cases which reach, beyond the limits of their covenanted meetings, to occasions of common concernment to many Churches; yea some of them are so comprehensive, as to belong to all the Churches of a King­dome, which can neither be sufficiently considered, nor ordered for the generall good, without a more generall convention and consultation of Church governours.

The Pope, though hated and scorned by you as an Antichristian Caiaphas, is a great, and I may say the supreme Independent in the Christian world; and his Independencie consisteth in this, that he will be judged of none; and herein truly S^r. you symbolize too much with the Papall ambition; in that as much as you can you free your selves from all Ecclesiasticall subjection; and this be­ing a chief part of his Antichristian exaltation, Independencie is rather Antichristian, then Presbyterie.

There is another part of the Papall pride, which is to require [Page 60]that all be subject unto him that he may censure and judge of all; and if I should straine your words, as you sometimes doe mine. I should say you are flown so high in your fancie, as to be got a­bove the high pitch of the Popes Mitre; for he tooke not upon him to judge, or give lawes to Christ (though to all Christians) as you doe, where you say that Christ ought, and was bound in the way of righteousnesse to have begun the practise and modell to us over whole Kingdomes, &c.

SECT. XXI. M^r. Saltm. his mistake touching the building of the Temple. Of the difference of the patterne of the Temple and the patterne of the Government of the Gospel. M^r. Saltm. confusedly jumbleth them together.

Light.I confesse I passed over somewhat in your Quere, more in your last Booke, but nothing in either wherein I conceived there was any thing of weight, or pertinencie to the cause in difference be­twixt us. Yet to that differenceSect. 11. p. 37. I said something in its proper place, andSect. 5. p. 16, 17. referred you to another Section where I observed more differences then you brought in; and whether I owe you any thing for that particular, the Reader shall judge; and if he find I was in your debt, he shall see I shall make ready payment of what is behinde; and it may be by that time I have done with your objection, you will thinke it better you had taken no notice of this omission, then occasioned me to make such an amends for it as now I must doe.

In the last lease of your Quere, when you had brought in your [Page 61]reasons for retarding the Governement, you bring in two objecti­ons, and make Answers to them; the former is this,New Quere. p. 7. Ob. 1. But the Temple was builded with all speed in Nehemiahs time, and Haggai cals to the building, Is it time, &c. Hag. 1.4.

Before I bring in my Reply to your Answer, I must minde you of a mistake in your single sheet; which though it be but short is lyable to a very just exception for an errour in Story; and you should have heard of it sooner from me, but that I observed it not my selfe untill I found I was misguided by your allegation; for I tooke it upon trust from you, because I did not suspect you would misalledge any thing, which did no way conduce unto your cause, as the time of the building of the Temple doth not; now though the errour were originally yours, the correction may be mine, which you may better receive from me, then I might take mispri­sion from you; you say the Temple was built in Nehemiahs time, but the truth is it was not, as you affirme, built in, but before Nehemiahs time, for the foundation of it was laide in the second yeare of Darius, Hag. 2.10.17. (i.) in the yeere of the world 3452. 519 yeers before the Incarnation of Christ; and it was finished in the sixth yeere of Darius, Ezra 6.15. that is, in the yeare of the world 3456. 515 yeers before Christs Incarnation; but that building of Nehemiah was the building of the wals of Jerusalem, Nehem. 2.17, 18, 19. and this was in the yeere of the world, 3527. about 444. yeeres before the birth of the Messias; this worke about the wals was a worke but of 52. dayes, Nehem, 6.15. the former about the Temple lasted about 4. yeeres, as from the Scriptures forealledged may be inferred.

Now for your Answer it is this, Yea but the materiall patterne was more clearely left, and knowne then the Gospel patternes, the other were more in the letter, and these more in the spirit; now there must be a proving of all things, else there may be more haste then good speed, as the Temple may be built by a false patterne as well as by a true; and then better no building then no right Cedar to build withall.

This is all for which you challenge my silence; and whereas you intimate some soliditie in it, which I was not so well able to deale with, as with the other part of your Answer: Truly S^r. [Page 62]I neither had, nor have any such opinion of it; it seemed to me at first, and it doth so now upon the review, to be an intricate, per­plexed, and confused jumbling of Metaphoricall, and literall ex­pressions together; and not more darke for lack of light, then weake for want of strength to that purpose for which it was framed: and therefore I thought it more fit for a tacit preterition, then for an expresse examination. But if you will have this rather, you shall have it; and so I say unto it,

First, that if the patterne were more cleare for building the Temple, then the Gospel patterne for the setting up of a Church-Government, why are you so confident, and peremptory, and punctuall for your Gospel patterne?

Secondly, Why tell you us of Gospel patterns in the plurall number? is there any more then one patterne of Government in the Gospel? if so, though the Independent patterne be yeelded to be a Gospel patterne, (which cannot be proved) the Presby­terian may be so too, for if there be more then one, that rather then any other may be allowed to be another.

Thirdly, when you say the other were more in the letter, these more in the spirit, what is your meaning by these words? were there more formes and patternes of the Temple then one? if there were, why doe you not speake more clearely to the point of difference, betwixt them? if not, why say you they were more in the letter? and when you say these Gospel patterns are more in the spirit; I would know whether they be written, or not written; if they be written, they are as much in the letter as the other; if they be not written, how can you tell they be Gospel patterns?

Fourthly, whereas you say, The Temple may be builded by a false patterne, if you meane it of the materiall Temple, you deny the clearenesse of the patterne which before you professed. And,

Fifthly, When you say, The Temple may be builded by a false pat­terne, as well as by a true, if you meane it of the materiall Temple in Ezra's time, what is that to the Gospel Government, in, or since our Saviours time? or if any thing, it is to contradict your selfe, who make the Temple patterne so cleare that there is no danger of a false patterne of misguidance. If you meane it of the [Page 63]Government of the Gospel, why doe you so confound what in the beginning of your Answer to the Objection you pretend to distinguish, to wit, the materiall Temple and the Evangeli­call order of the Church?

Lastly, whereas you say, Better no building at all then no right Cedar to build withall, what's your meaning by this metaphor? Cedar was the matter to build with, not the patterne whereby the building was to be formed, and set together; which was the thing, whereof you would make the Reader beleeve you made a fit comparison, and shewed a materiall difference why the buil­ding of the Temple might be hastened in Ezra's time, and yet the setting up of Government should be delayed in our time; for which you have said nothing either to declare, or assure what you tooke upon you to illustrate, and make good unto your Rea­der, whom I require now againe to judge betwixt us, whether this passage of your Quere were not better omitted by me, then remembred by you, to put me to make such an Answer unto it as I have done.

SECT. XXII. Of staying for the Spirit to give light of instruction to the reformation of the Church.

Light. First, I confesse it is a Gospel way to stay for the spirits com­ing into the servants of the Lord; the Apostles were commanded by our Saviour not to depart from Ierusalem, but to waite there for the promise of the Father, Act. 1.4. and they did so, and there the Holy Ghost came upon them, Act. 2.3. And so the Prophecy of Ioel of pouring out the spirit in the last dayes, Ioel 2.28. was fulfilled, and is so implied by Peter, Act. 2. vers. 16, 17.

Secondly, by the last dayes is not to be understood our present Age, 1645 yeers after our Saviours first coming, and God knows how many before his second coming; by the last dayes may be un­derstood not precisely those which are next to the worlds end, but after times; as in the prophecie of Iacob, Gen. 19.1. which some­times may be further, as in that of Iacob and Ioel, sometimes neerer hand, as the Prophecie of Peter that there should come in the last dayes scoffers, 2 Pet. 2.3. which was fulfilled, and so is re­corded in the last of the Apostolicall Epistles, for in the 17. & 18. verses of Iudes Epistle, saith he, Beloved remember the words which were spoken before of the Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, how that they told you there should be mockers in the last times, who should walke after their owne ungodly lusts; but the dayes of the Gospel are called the last times, because after that is brought forth we must looke for no more changes of Religion, and the manner of Gods worship, as there was before in Moses time from what was in use before with the Patriarchs, and since Christs time from the Ceremonials of Moses.

Thirdly, though I doe not nor dare put limits to the Spirit, which is free as the winde that bloweth where it listeth, Ioh. 3.8. and doe acknowledge and blesse God for it that there is [...] spirit of grace and supplications, Zach. 1 [...].10. poured out upon many of Gods people; and not onely upon Preachers, but also upon divers others which are not: and that it was a wicked part in divers of the Prelates (for all on my knowledge were not guilty of it) to stint the Ministers of the Gospel, as they did by the [...] forme in their Conan, which was rather a bidding invitation to prayer, then a prayer it solfe.

Yet fourthly, since the Apostle Paul foretels of the later times, [Page 65]that there shall be [...] spirits, and dectrines of Devils, speaking lyes in hypocrisie, 1 Tin [...]. 4.1.12. and John the Apostle gives a ca­veat against credulity in this case, Beloved, beleeve not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they be of God, 1 Ioh. 4.1. and that Chri­stians are admonished to try all things, 1 Thes. 5.21. and the Church of Ephesus is commended for trying those who said they were Apo­stles and were not, and found them lyors, Revel. 2.2. and the tryall is to be made by the law, and by the testimonie of the Scripture; and if they speake not according to this, it is because there is no light in them, Esa. 20.8. And since I have read of many horrid and abomi­nable things committed upon pretence of revelation of the spirit;

Lastly, since the Government of the Church is not a matter of private inspiration, but of publique direction, and use to the whole Church, and that the Word of God, as a standing ru [...]e, is to give us directions in Gospel dispensations, I dare not expect where that speakes nothing, that the defect will be made out, or made up with the whisperings of a private spirst, especially against the con­current judgement of the most Orthodox Divines of the Refor­med Churches.

SECT. XXIII. Of expedition or delay in setting up of Government; Whether Mo­ses and Christ, the Iewish and Christian state be so contrary, that there is no conformity betweene them.

Light.I must recall you to our former entercourse to give light for the clearing this exception;New Quere. p. 7. you bring in a second Objection against the delay of it thus: But vica, beresies and sehismes grew too fast, and you answer it thus:Ibid. p. 8. so they might have done from Iohns first Sermon to Pauls Epistles, and the sending of the Spirit, but yet you see there was no Government till after settled upon the people of God. And not shewing how long after, I calculated the time for you; and you are pleased in the end of the precedent Paragraph to com­mend my paines as more exact then yours, and to thanke me for it; but yet withall you make as if I had ravelled into time to prove your Tenet against mine own, wherein I shall easily disprove you. For you brought in the putting off the government from Iohn Baptists time untill Pauls Epistles, and the sending of the Spirit; (where you confusedly shuffle things together, which should be carefully distinguished) and if you meane it of the time fromSee mine Ex­amin. of the New Quere. p. 39. Iohns preaching to the pouring out of the Spirit at the Feast of Pentecost, it is but five yeares; if to the first of Pauls Epistles, but 21; if to the last, 29 yeares; and before the end of that Epistle that Government was written which we finde in Scripture. Now take which of these times you will, and compare it to our time and State, and it will not serve for any cause or ground of adjourn­ment, or putting off the Church Government to a further Date, as you would have it.

For, if that Government which the Scripture hath laid down be offered to acceptation, and establishment, shall we take 29 yeares time, or 21 yeares time, or 5 yeares time before we will admit of it? especially since we have been for many yeares toge­ther conversant in the Scriptures, where it is founded, and have had the practice of it exemplified unto us in many Reformed Churches for 100 yeares together; so that though 5, or 21, or 29 yeares, were to be taken for a long time in respect of the first age of the Church, before the government of it was setled upon the people of God, (and yet it was but a while, the progresse of the [Page 67]Gospel duely weighed) it makes nothing for the delay of Go­vernment you drive at: and so disappointing your purpose, which was out of that instance to make some shew for the slacknesse in Government which you desire, I pleaded not your cause, but the truths, and mine own in prosecution of it against your exception. I shall be willing in some other way to doe you a courtesie, and to deserve your thankes, but expect not I should be so unfaithfull, or fickle, or simple, as to desert the defence I have undertaken, or so to manage it, as to give mine adversary advantage by it.

Light.Having cited the example of old Ely, against indulgence to such as reproach and scandalize Religion, especially against tolera­tion of blasphemers, as Paul Best, who made blasphemous verses against the Trinitie; you tell me, I am still looking upon Moses, though I tell you of Christ; you meane by like that I am still upon mine Annotations on the Pentateuch, but they are printed a good while since; and I doe not thinke you have often found me look­ing upon Moses, since I had occasion to looke upon you as an ad­versary; but if you looked upon him oftner, and understood him better, I beleeve you would be a more sound and Orthodox Di­vine then as yet I can accompt you.

It is the manner of the Antinomians (of whose impious and pernicious opinions, some of your writings have a strong savour) to shew their slightings of Moses upon all occasions; But Sir, though his Ceremonials be abolished, his Indicials not established in Christian Common-wealths, (yet for some penall lawes, I thinke we should be better governed if they were more Mosai­call) yet his face still shines, and shall doe to the end of the world, in the pietie, equitie, regularitie, and utilitie of the Morall Law, which he brought from the Mount.

After your reproofe of me you appoint me a taske, and make me a promise; the taske is, that I must make the Kingdome of Is­rael and of England the same, a Iewish and a Christian State the same; Why I pray you, Sir, must I make them all one, because I bring an example of Caution out of the Old Testament? neither upon that ground, nor your command doe I finde my selfe obliged to such an undertaking; nor is it any mans worke so to compare or resemble them as to make them the same, since they doe, and of necessitie must differ in many things; and though they differ much, yet in divers things they do agree likewise, as the Apostle sheweth in part, 1 Cor. 10.1, 2, 3; 4. and that their sinnes and pu­nishments should be warnings to us (for which purpose I cited old Elyes case) he sheweth by many examples out of the Old Testament, from vers. 5. to the 11; was it the Apostles dutie (ha­ving so done) to undertake a proofe of the paritle or identitie of the Corinthian or Christian and the Iewish State?

Now if I make good this, you promise to allow me both Elyes sinne, and his sonnes maintenance by tythes and offerings; but I will not take you at your word, for this liberall offer; keep Elyes sinne to your selfe if you please; and since I know you are displeased with Tythes, put them upon me, and I will either prove them lawfull, and I thinke I have done it already; or give them up as you have done.

SECT. XXIIII. Truth not to be parted with for peace, the Magistrate dishonoured, and the Presbyterians slandered by M^r. Saltm.

Light. In your exception against the example of Ely; you play the Antinomian, in this and the next ensuing paragraph you take up the Tenet of the Anabaptists against the lawfulnesse of warre, though not theirs onely, for some of the Fathers, and some famous Papists have been of that opinion, but I finde you not much versed in the writings of the Fathers, and very averse from the opinions of the Papists, and but too kinde and complying in conceipt with Anabaptists, therefore I suppose a symbolizing rather with them then with either of the other Sects; whereto I would make a returne, and that returne should be a refutation of that fancy, but that I have done it in print already, inIn my Ser­mon of the Fu­ry of warre and folly of sinne, p. 10. ad 15. my Sermon before the Honourable House of Commons, April. 26. 1645.

Light.A little before you pleaded too much for peace, and now you would breake the peace, and play the make-bate betwixt the Ma­gistracy and the Presbytery, and to that purpose you make croo­ked consequences from right words, and upright intentions, that you may at last put the name of Satan upon the Magistrate in the name of a Presbyter; but take heed Sir, lest some say (though I doe not) you deserve the other name of that Arch-malignant, viz. [...], to be returned upon you, which is a fit title for a false accuser, and so used by the Apostle, 2 Tim. 3.3. For how could you with truth, ingenuitie, or charitie, make such deductions as you doe from my words, in Answer to yours? you say, (to make the Presbyteriall Government needlesse,)New Quere. p. 8. If morall transgressi­ons stirre, let the Magistrate be set on in every place. I aske,Sect. 12. p. 41. of mine Exam. set out [Page 70]by whom? and how? Doth he meane that the Magistrate is as a shepheards dogge, to be set on the wolfe that cometh to make spoile of the flocke? we cannot have so meane a thought of the Magistrate, as to make mention of him in such termes of disparagement. Neither dare we take upon us, either so much interest in all Magistrates, or so much power in any, as to give them the watch-word when to draw the sword, and to expect that they should wield it as we would have them. And not withstanding the preaching of the Presbyters, and exercise of the Presbytery, there will be worke enough for the Ma­gistrate to bring them under a civill triall, &c.

Are these words capable of such a glosse as you make of them, that the Presbytery will keepe the Magistracy doing, and now who disparages the Magistrates? who sets them a worke? Not the Pres­byterians, but you, and your party rather; for your words are, Let them be set on. Who makes them Deputie punishers? Not the Pres­byterians, who take no such power upon them as to appoint them to punish any one; nor (if they doe punish) accompt them De­puties to any, but doers of their own worke. Nay, who is the Sa­tan, to whom the excommunicate are delivered? The Magistrate, as you imply, and impose that reproach upon Presbyterians; For you say, it is an expression not farre beside your principles, and who dispa­rages the Magistrate in that? But stay good Sir, what Presbyteri­ans expound those words of delivery unto Satan, 1 Corinth. 5.5. 1 Tim. 1.20. with an application to the Magistrate? neither Cal­vin, Beza, Marl [...]rat, Piscator, Deodate, norIn his late Booke against Erastus cap. 11. q. 7. pag. 354, 355. M^r. Rutherford, nor any Presbyterian that ever I read, make the Magistrate the Devill in these Texts; no nor Vatablus nor Aquinas, of the Popish Church; and I thinke it will be hard for you to finde any Authour of note, of what Religion so ever, that so takes, or rather mis-takes the words as you doe; and impossible to produce any Presbyterian principles, which with any colour or probabilitie may be drawn, or by any violence and importunitie be drag'd to such a sense of disparagement of the Magistrate, as you have suggested; and so the calumny and contempt of their calling must be laid at your doore, to father it as an ill-favoured brat of your own begetting.

SECT. XXV. The Magistrates assistance to the Ecclesiasticall Government, no argument to prove it no Gospel Government; the sword of God and of Gideon, of Church Discipline, and civill severitie, how law­full and usefull; zeale against toleration of evill commended connivence at it blameable.

Light.Here as in many other places you shew little ingenuitie in re­peating my words, which are not as you cite them; but thus,Examination of the New Quere. Sect. 12. pag. 42. We cannot thinke it meet to divide subservient meanes from the supreme power, nor the exercise of Discipline, and government from his As­sistance who can make it effectuall, that is, (say you) from the Ma­gistrate; and that is, say I, your maledicta glossa which corrupts the Text; my words import not the inferiour efficacy of the Ma­gistrate, but the superiour of God; and therefore your inference upon it is a second injury, and violence you commit against my saying and sence; and yet though the Discipline be Christs, we must crave the consent and sanction of the Civill Magistrates, that we may put it in practice, as the Presbyterians of the Dutch and French Churches in London; and with their assistance it may be more effectuall then without it it can be, as the Magistrates anthe­ritie may have a more awfull operation upon the people if assisted by the Ministers in their Sermons, and popular exhortations; and yet you will not deny but that Magistracy is the ordinance of God, Rom. 13.1.

Light.I joyne the sword of God and Gideon, not as a proofe for u­niting Presbytery and Magistracy, but as an illustration of associati­on of different meanes to the same end, or of concurrent opera­tions to the same purpose; and yet if the cause of God in the hands of the Presbytery doe need, and have aide in the hand of the Magistrate to help it forward, there the sword of the Spirit, which is the sword of the Lord, in the mouth of his Ministers, and the sword of Gideon, that is, the sword of the Magistrate, may be said to be joyned.

Light.To that you said;New Quere. pag. 8. It is the Papists and Prolates iealousie to keep up their supposed truths by suspecting every thing that appeares for an enemy: My Answer was;Examination of the New Quere. Sect. 12. pag. 42. There is a iealousie which the Apostle cal [...] godly iealousie, and such a one is that which would set up as many securities as may be against heresie, and impiety; among them Church-government is one; of which, they that stand for it are not afraid to let it go [...] abread, but have made it publique, and exposed it to the view of all eyes. To this you put in a Reply with a condition of warrantable and Gospel wayes of securitie, and an exception of wicked wayes, such as Herods killing all the young children, &c. I instanced onely in the Church-government, which the Presby­terians propound, and plead for as a Gospel way; you bring in Herods bloody businesse, as if there were neere consanguinitie betwixt the Presbytery and his barbarous crueltie; this is (though not to slay innocents as he did yet) to wound and blast innocence, as much as may be, and to bring it under an evill suspicion to make it odious; this is no Gospel way M^r. Sa [...]m. but a very wide aber­ration from it.

Light.You still give me cause to complaine of your unfaithfull dealing with my words, by such alteration, or omission of them as may make them more obvious to your exception, then as I set them downe, for they are thus in my Booke;Exam. of the New Quere. Sect. 12. p. 43. But there is it feare which we professe, and I hope without offence, it is a feare of Gods an­ger, and of imminent danger for communion with, and connivence towards hereticall and wicked men; and I brought examples, and sayings of John the Evangelist, of Polycarpe, Hilary, and Ierome to that purpose, which you take no notice of at all; but say, such feare is onely warrantable in the Church, not in the world; but for that there is a remedy that men may separate from Church-Com­munion; but what if many will not, as the weaker and looser sort are as ready to runne to hereticall Teachers, where they ex­ercise, as the people of Israel to the Idolamous worship of the gol­den Calves; and shall such be suffered to [...] them that through the ignorance of their minds, or unrulinesse of then lusts are wil­ling to be seduced? Will your conscience with the Papists tolerate the Stews, not in the Church, but in the Citie? it is not so broad, nor loose I hope; no more should it be so indulgent as to allow of inducements to spirituall whoredome, [...] which is as dangerous to men, and more dishonourable to God: The Angel of the Church of Ephesus, I am sure, is commended by the Holy Ghost because he could not beare them which were evill, Revel. 2.2. and for h [...] ­ting the deeds of the Nicolaitans, vers. 6. as on the contrary the Angel of the Church of P [...]ga [...] is blamed for suffering such as held the Doctrine of Bala [...]m, and those that held the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans, vers. 12.14, 15. and so is the Angel of the Church of Thyatir [...] for suffering the woman J [...]bal, which [...]l­leth [Page 74]her selfe a Prophetesse, to teach and seduce the servants of the Lord, vers. 18.20. and if such seducement may be as dan­gerous to many where heretiques teach in corners, as where they are admitted to officiate in publique Churches, that must be no more endured then the other.

And for that you say of plucking up the tares before the harvest, it makes nothing against the caution I meane, which is not to ex­tirpate all heretiques out of the world, but to put such a restraint upon them, that they may not have power to seduce simple soules to such pernicious errours as may endanger them upon eternall damnation; and yet I hope you doe not meane but some wicked men may be so wicked, and so destructive in their principles and practices to Religion, and States, that it may be lawfull not onely to keepe, or put them out of all Church-Communion, but to take them quite out of all communion in the world, by capitall punish­ment, else you will have the Civill Magistrate to beare the Sword for naught, against the determination of the Apostle, Rom. 13.

SECT. XXVI. M^r. Saltm. his dangerous supposition of equality of Number and power, with diversitie of Religion; of incorporation of two powers; and what may be expected should the Sectaries prevaile.

Light.What cause or need in this difference betwixt you and me to take up such a terrible supposition as you make? for there would have beene no ground of suspition, if there had not been too much indulgence shewed to hereticall, and schismaticall seducers; and [Page 75]what doe you meane by supposing equalitie in number, power, and spirit for contestation about contrary opinions? is it to make the Presbyterians beleeve that the partie they take to be hereti­call is, or is like to be so many and masterfull, that they will not suffer the Church Government to be settled without clashing of swords, and bloody doings? Truly your courting of militarie men as you do, and others solicitations of them, and brags of their power and purpose may be a just ground of suspitiō of so bad an intention in some of your side, which now plead for liberty of conscience, that if they had might to their minds they would assert it with other instruments, and would secure it with circumscription, if not prescription, of the Civill power; as the King of Spaine did the liberty of election of the Emperour at Frankford (against King Francis the first King of France his competitor for the Em­pire) who sent thither an Army of 30000 men, that the choosers might be free and not forced,Guicciard. whereby he so overawed them that they durst not make their choice but in the family of the house of Austria.

Light.Now truly S^r. you are a very sorry image-maker, that draw your picture so imperfectly, so grosly, like the rude Painters of old, who were fain to their mishapen pourtraitures to adde an In­scription, this is a man, and this is an horse, or else a man could tell no more then a horse what the pictures resembled. If you had not told your Reader this is an image of your Incorporation, &c. he would never have thought you meant any such thing by what you have said; and now you have made your description, and set your subscription to it, it is yet so smokie and obscure, that I doubt he cannot understand it, I am sure I cannot perceive any truth or sence in it: for what incorporation of powers doe we make and plead for? you should have shewed what powers you meane, what incorporation of them we make, where and by what argu­ments [Page 76]we plead for it; till you doe this, I shall thinke your image a meere imagination, and a fantasticall Chimera.

Light.What principles of persecution doe Presbyterians hold, set which they have not warrant from the word of God? all with you is persecution which in any sort opposeth your lavish tolera­tion of all Religions, though never so dishonourable to God, and damnable to man; the godly party in the time of the Prelates cried out upon pluralities, and soule-murdering Non-residencie, ac­counting it an high and hainous crime in those who withheld spi­rituall food from the soules of the people, and held that the State was bound to doe them right, to see them supplied with necessary provision for their salvation; and is there not a soule murdering by poysoning the peoples soules with pernicious principles, as well as by withholding from them found and salutary Doctrine? and is not the State bound to provide against this spirituall perill, as well as the other? which if it may be done without drawing of a drop of blood, it is so much more pleasing to consciencious Presbyterians, as it is lesse grievous to hereticall seducers; the wild beast may be kept and fedde within the grate, and the Fox confined to the length of a chaine, though they be not suffered to range abroad, and make havock on the flock. And how are they armed for persecution of their adversaries, when they not onely live, but thrive and flourish, and are advanced to places of honour and trust all over the Kingdome.

If the Presbyterians were so spirited, and so armed with power as you pretend, how came the Independents to enjoy such a pro­sperous condition as they doe? And for the persecution of the Tongue and Pen, (for there may be words as keene and cutting as very swords) was there ever any so sharpe and bitter as theirs, who, pretending to hate and persecute persecution, jeere and re­vile Presbyterie and Presbyters with so much virulence that all [Page 77]the scoffing Ishmaelites, Lucians, Martin Marprelates (of which lastJosias Ni­chols in his Book called the Plea of the Innocent. Iosias Nichols a godly Nonconformist said he was stirred up by Satan to hinder the worke of Reformation) put together make not up the measure of their malignitie who plead for toleration of all Religions, as you doe, and whose spirit appeares to be so fu­rious (though yours be more calme) that could they advance to the height of their hopes, and aimes, it is manifest by their owne written words, that they would not tolerate a Presbyterian, but would bring him under intolerable slavery; for they would have theSo in the Arraignment of Persecution, p. 36. Printed by Martine Claw-Clergy Printer to the Reverend As­sembly of Di­vines for Bar­tholomew Bang-Priest, and are to be sold at his shop in To­leration street. Anno. 1645. Presbyterian Tribe led in a string from Westminster to Algate in leatherne jackets, and mattocks on their shoulders, and the words that follow presently after, and close up the Paragraph are, they would doe the State better service with their Canonicall girdles (which very few of them weare) were the knot tied in the right place, the words are no such Riddle as to need an Oedipus to ex­pound them; Sir, I will returne you your owne words againe, and let the Reader judge whether they were more fitly objected by you, or retorted by me. If we were equally principled and armed for persecution, and acted by your spirit (yours who breath out such threatnings and slaughters from Toleration street against Presby­terians) ab what a Kingdome would here be?

SECT. XXVII. The Authoritie of the Parliament not pleaded by the Presbyterians as a supplement of Scriptures, as M^r. Saltm. suggesteth; nor slighted by them as by M^r. Saltm. it is; of the pretended danger of the Magistrates engagement with the Ministers; of the pretended tender­nesse of consciences in Sectaries.

Light.You had made it a matterNew Quere. p. 8. of Popish and Prelaticall jealousie, to keepe up their supposed truths by suspecting every thing that ap­peares for an enemie; WhereuponExam. Sect. 12. p. 44. I shewed that there were o­ther motives for opposing of Heresie and Schisme, (besides such a jealousie) and I shewed it by instances of zeale against Hereticks in divers of the Ancients, and concluded with an Ordinance of Parliament of the 20. of October, 1645. wherein they endeavour for the compleat establishment of purity and unitie in the Church of God; hereupon you say, you are afraid these are such proofes as we intend most in our Presbyterie; proofes for what? If you take it for constitution of a Presbyterie, we have proved that by Scripture before it was offered to the Parliament; if for execution, you must either intend it of an Ordinance of Parliament, to enable us to set up the Presbyterie, or for the particular proceedings in the Pres­byterie; If you meane it of the former, we must urge the Ordi­nance of Parliament for it; if any one question it in a Civill Title, we must plead it by such a warrant as the Ordinance; if for the particular proceedings, they must have such profes and evidence as in other cases of difference, by personall contestation.

Light.Doe you hope then that the Parliament will not establish the Presbyterie by their Authoritie? or if they doe, that we will make no use of their Ordinance, to maintaine the puritie and unitie which that Honourable Senate intended, against the confusion of Heresie and Schisme? If so, I doubt not but you will be deceived in both; and yet Sir the Presbyterian cause will be made good a­gainst the whole circumference of Sects, who Center in Indepen­dency, for toleration of multiplicity of professions in matter of Re­ligion.

Light. But I have not to doe with an Ordinance of Parliament, say you, you might have let it alone; I laid no such weight of Argument upon it, as did engage you to answer it. Now whereas you say, you submit to them in every Ordinance, it is but a complement, for were you serious and sincere in this you professe, would you doe as you, doe cry down Tythes as Antichristian, which the Parliament by Ordinance hath established? or cry up such a libertie of con­science, and Preaching without Ordination, as they by Ordinance have forbidden? I could put the same Quere upon other particu­lars, wherein you make no more scruple in practise to goe crosse to the Parliament, then in your words to contradict me.

Yet you say, you dare not undervalue them as to make them parties but Judges in our difference: Then their Authoritie must decide the difference; and if the decision stick on your side, will you not accept, or make use of it to countenance your cause against us? you will not, you cannot deny it; why then should you say in your next words, It is no faire proofe of truth to draw the Ma­gistrates sword out of the scabbard: If they be Iudges, as you call them, and appeal be made unto them, (as by you it is) why should you impute it as a faulty drawing of the Magistrates sword out of the scabbard to produce their sentence, or make use of their Authority?

Light. You wonder? My Exam. of your New. Quere. Sect. 12. pag. 44. I said, If you had well considered who were enga­ged for the establishment of Church Government, and how farre, be­fore you published your New Quere, you would not sure have so farre undervalued their piety and prudence, as to compare them with Pa­pists and Papall Prelates.

Of these words you have made a wonder; you have not onely much freedome of fancy, but a great libertie of conscience to am­plifie, or extenuate, or exchange the words of your adversarie as you please; and you doe it so often, as to make your credulous Reader, who doth not examine whether you have cited my Ex­amination aright, to conceive that you have answered, yea con­quered in the Controversie; when you have but slandered my Text, declined the strength of it, smoked the light of it, and con­founded the order of it, and gotten the victory onely of your own abusive allegation, or interpretation thereof.

Light.Not so farre as to oppose, retard, and reproach the Church Go­vernment, wherein they were so farre, so publiquely engaged; is this to value them, to value them highly? if such be the price you set upon such Honourable Patriots, I shall never be ambitious of your good acceptation, nor solicitous of your estimation of me, whether the rate you set upon me be pretious or vile.

Light.If the Ministers engagements in Religion be right, it is a hap­pinesse that Magistrates be engaged with them, and therefore on [Page 81]the one side promised as matter of great joy, and glory to the Church, that Kings should be unto it as nursing Fathers, and Queenes as nursing Mothers, Isa. 49.23. and on the other required as a dutie to pray for Kings and for all that are in authority, that we may lead a quiet life in all godlinesse and honesty, 1 Tim. 2.2. and in all Ages to this day the orthodoxe party have much desired the Patronage of Princes and civill States in their Religious ministra­tions, as a meanes to propagate the Gospel in the power and pu­ritie of the Ordinances of Christ; and if the Parliament should (which the Lord forbid) yeeld to such a toleration of Religions as you propound, I would know whether you would not desire the security of State for that licence you lust after, if any should oppose you therein; and would you not have the power that granted it engage so farre, as to make it good unto you, and to suppresse those who would debarre you of the libertie allowed you? We know the spirit of your partie by their speeches, and some practises so well, that we doubt not of this, and we have cause rather to beleeve that you would not waite upon the Magi­strates leisure, to right you in such a case, if you had power for more speedy remedy in your owne hands.

Light.In what Nation doe you meane? if in England, as I suppose you doe, either onely or chiefly, I confesse that in the time of Popish Tyranny there was much blood poured out of the ve [...]es of such as had tender consciences, so tender that they could en­dure death more willingly then Idolatry. And I deny not but the domination of the Starchamber, and the High Commission were very Tyrannicall, and injurious to tender consciences, and very bloody (especially the Starchamber) to the porsons of such as came under their censure; for I have read the reports of the cruel usager of M^r. Prim [...], D^r. Bastwick [...], and M^r. Burton; and truly Sir, I could not but be affected with compassion towards M^r. Lil­burne, [Page 82]and with indignation towards his persecutors (though he have often bewrayed a bitter spirit by many disdainfull contu­melies against them) upon the reading of the late Relation of his sufferings proved before the Right Honourable the House of Peeres, Feb. 13. 1645. wherein it is testified thatPag. 3. he was whip­ped from Fleet bridge to Westminster so cruelly, that the cords bruised his shoulders, and made them swell as bigge as a penny leafe, and wheales on his backe bigger then a Tobacco-pipe; and that the Warden of the Fleet caused him to be gagged in such a cruell manner as if he would have torne his jawes in pieces.

But did not the Parliament so farre abominate the Tyranny of these Courts as utterly to depose them, and to exclude the Bi­shops out of the House of Peers? and will you compare their en­gagements for the puritie and unitie of a reformed Religion, and Government, with the intolerable-Tyranny of such mercilesse oppressours?

And for the tender consciences so much, so plausibly pleaded for by you, and your partie, many who had good meanes to know Sectaries, and no bad minds to mis-report of them, finde that for a few tender consciences among them, there are many le­prous, ulcerous, blinded, hardned, and cauterized consciences; to which if the State should be so tender as you would have them, it would be cruell to farre better Christians.

SECT. XXVIII. What a Trumpeter M^r. Saltm. is; his reproach of the Parliament plaine enough, though rather implied then expressed; A chal­lenge of him to prove his insinuated suggestions of Treason, Blasphemie, &c. in my Exami­nation of his New Quere.

Light. The premises considered, your Trumpet is as the Trumpet of Sheba the sonne of Bichri sounded to sedition, a Sam. 20.1.

Light. For my comparison of Papists and Prelates, If you compare Pa­pists and Prelates, it is not so great a reproach to Prelates for the most part to be matched with Papists, as for the Presbyterians to be likened to the worst of either, as you make the comparison; but you should have said further, for my resemblance of such as de­sire and endeavour the speedy setting up of Government to Papists and Prelates (for so you made it in your Quere, p. 8.) I appeale (not to the world, that is too wide a compasse for a Iudicatory as well as for a Church, but) to the ingenuous and impartiall Reader, whether the Parliament, making as much haste as they can to finish the Governement, that they may establish it by their civill Sanction, be not implicitly taken into that imputation; and let him judge also whether the reproach be in the Authour or in the Interpreter.

Light.If it be lawfull? why should you doubt of it, but that it is law­full? If I have any premises which you can make parents to bring forth such corrupt and criminall conclusions, spare me not Sir; nay [Page 84]I challenge you to lay downe your antecedent in my words, and bring in your consequent of Treason, Blasphemie, Idolatry. A­theisme, &c. out of them; which if you can doe by any faire and unforced deduction, I will take you for an unerring Oracle, and follow you with an implicit faith, with punctuall observance and imitation of you whithersoever you goe, through all your vatia­tions of Heresie, and Schisme, though you ramble all over the Ca­talogue of them, as Irenaeus, Epiphanius, Philastrius, Brixlensit, and Augustine of old, or any later Haeresiographers have set them forth; but if you cannot doe this, (as I know you cannot) with what conscience do you give out a suspition, or insinuation of such abominable guilt? what an ungodly guile is this? how far from the Christian charitie of a man pretending the spirit of meeknesse, and moderation, as you doe?Smoke. p. 2. nu. 3. Let a spirit of meeknesse (say you) runne in the Artery of Preaching and Printing; how farre from finceritie, to raise such a smoke of infamie and reproach upon the reputation of him whom you style sometimesIn the In­scription of your Letter. a Friend, some­timesSmoke. p. 26. a Brother, and to whom you professe a threefold respect for his age, learning, and place, in your Letter unto him? this s [...]re­ly is the beame in your eye Your Letter to me. p. b. you spake of, while you are curious to take out the mote in mine eye; and for that you say of Indepen­dencie worse thought of then Treason, Blasphemie, Idolatrie, A­theisme, &c. I know no Presbyterian that thinks so of Indepen­dencie, ut sic, abstractively, but considering the concurrence of many dangerous and damnable opinions with it, and their pro­tection and propagation by it, it may perhaps be truly said, that Independencie extensively, comprehensively, and effectively, though not formally, or intensively may be worso then other er­routs, or heresies, forced under that supposed golden head, or em­braced in its [...]ver [...], though they be at the best but as the belly and thighs of brasse; and at the worst as legges of iron, and feet in part of iron, in part of clay, as in Nebuchadnezzars Image, Dan. 2. vers. 32, 33.

I should require and expect your ingenuous acknowledgement of this injurious and uncharitable charge, but that you have di­rected me to another remedie of the wrong you doe me; where you say in your Epistle to me, If you finde any passions in my Booke, [Page 85]charge them upon mine unregenerate part, for I finde that when I would doe good evill is present with me.

According to this distinction a female disciple of some Anti­nomian Teacher (who would be thought too good a Christian to be a member of any Congregation that met in a Steeple-house) made her evasion from an accusation of these; for when her Mi­stresse charged her for stealing her linnens, and other things, which she found in her chest, or trunck, she denied that she stole them; and when she asked how came they to be laid and locked up there, Did not you doe this? No, said she. It was not I, but sinne that dwelleth in me.

That this is no tale fained, or taken up on trust to reproach such professours as pretend to an extraordinarie straine of Evangelicall perfection, but a true storie, will be made good by evidence be­yond exception to such as shall question the truth thereof: But whether true, or false, you will haply say, what is this to you? Truly so much as her excuse for her theeverie hath the more con­formitie with your excuse for your calumnie; but I bring it in but occasionally, and it is more pertinent I confesse to mind you of your owne faults then of others.

SECT. XXIX. The charge of misapplication of Revel. 18.1. iustified against M^r. Saltm. his deniall. The expectation of new lights which some Sectaries teach, Papisticall, fallacious, and dangerous.

Light.If you would cleare the Scripture from misapplication, you must shew how it came in with a for, as a reason of the precedent passage: your next words before it are, The Gospel dares walke abroad with boldnesse, and simplicity, when traditions of men like melancholy people feare every thing they meet will kill them; and then immediately (not a word betweene) you say, For the An­gel that comes downe from heaven hath great power, and the earth is lightned with his glory.

If this be not a misapplication of Scripture, I adde further, if it be not an absurd one, and your defence of it ridiculously vaine, and your appeale to the Reader a presumption, that you take him to be very stupid, or so fond as to follow you in all you say with an implicit faith, let the judicious and impartiall Reader judge.

Light.You said before your reasons were rather crowded then or­dered, (though I know not why you should put your selfe into such a precipitation of haste) If so, it is not strange they should be misplaced, and those cast behind which should come before, as in a crowd it falleth out. And truly for this testimonie, and the rea­son of it, with what went afore it, it comes in a great deale too late to be pertinently applied; for you had ended your reasons, (such as they were) for the delay of Government a good while be­fore, and now were at the end of your second Objection, where there was roome enough, before you loosed your Pen from Paper, to have made a reference of that Text to its proper place, and to have told your Reader what you meant by it as now you doe; and [Page 87]then I should have told you that that Text is as much misapplied for want of truth, had it come in where it might seeme to be most certaine, as here for want of sense and sutablenesse to the precedent words. For,

The Government of the Church is, (as you have acknow­ledged before) a Scripture Government; and unlesse you waite for an Angel from heaven to bring another Gospel, who by the doome of the Apostle, should he come, should be welcomed with a curse, Gal. 1.8. you must not looke for another Gospel Govern­ment; if you refuse the Scripture light in expectation of Evange­licall Revelations, take heed you comply not with the Papists, (whom you pretend to abhorre) makingBellarm. de notis Eccles. Tom. 2. l. 4. c. 15. p. 278. Propheticall light or revelation a note of the Church, and pretending Revelations fromLegend. aur. fol. 255. p. 1. col. 1. Portifer. seu Breviar. in usum Eccles. Satisbur. part Estrval. in Fe­stum S^ri. Egid. Sept. 1. lect. 9. printed Paris pervid. Francisc. Regnault. an. 1555. Thelmes of the Saints out of Villegas & Ri­bad. vol. 1. part. 1. p. 87, 88, 98. Angels. And if you say your Brethren the Anabaptists have their revelations, and many others besides them talke of new lights. I doubt they are for the most part but like your Book, which offers Smoke for light, and some of them very destructive illusions of Sa­tan; as that of the Anabaptist ofSleydan Com­ment. ad an. 1527. l. 6. fol. 87. b. Sangalli a Towne of Helvetia, who cut off his owne Brothers head in his parents presence, tel­ling them it was revealed to him, and commanded him of God, he should do so; and none of them such as may be a rule of direction to any societie of pious, and prudent men, much lesse to those by whose Authoritie the Government is to be set up, and settled throughout the whole Kingdome.

Light.The Angel whereof John prophecie was to come after his time, but now about sixteene hundred yeeres are passed since he had that vision, and how can you say he is yet to come, in respect of the time wherein we have this debate? what Angel or Spirit hath stood by you, as by Paul, and told you that we must yet expect such an Angel to come, and when he will come? that when he comes he will bring a revelation of Church Govern­ment with him, which hath been kept all this while in the darke? [Page 88]if you have any warrant, any good ground for such a vision, and re­velation from heaven, shew it; it is a matter of too great mo­ment to be taken upon trust, upon your bare word, or of any mans alive; and it may be Sir you may waite for this Angel as long as the Iewes have done for another Messias, and at last faile of your expectation as they have done, and for ever must doe.

Light.You sent forth your Dawnings of light the last yeare, but in stead of faire day light next to follow, you present us with a Smoke; what Gospel-light you meane is too darke to me, and it may be also to your selfe; If you meane the new lights that Sectaries bragge of, they are, and I bele [...]ve all Scripture-learned Christians will take them but for the glimmerings of an ignis fatuus, some illusive flashes from the shining of Satan, when he puts on his holy-day habit, and presents himselfe as in the apparition of an Angel of light, 2 Cor. 11.14.

To me they represent the juggling imposture of a Popish Priest, of whom Erasmus writes in one of his Epistles, that he got together many Crab-fishes, and tied pieces of Wax candles light­ed at their clawes, who crawling up and downe in the Church-yard in the night, made the lights moveable to and fro; and the simple people seeing them at distance, (for they durst not come neere them) the Priest made them beleeve they were soules come from Purgatorie, which needed and craved the prayers of good people for their release. As many as have not their eye sight hurt by your Smoke (for Solomon sheweth, Prov. 10.26. and experience complaines of it as ill for the eyes,) will take ma­ny of the new lights, so much talked and boasted of by divers of your partie, rather for such false illusions, then for true illu­minations.

Light.That we might not be shut up too long in the darke, I have brought all this light of truth to dispell your vapour of errour, and slander; and now I may, I doubt not, the premises considered, and judiciously weighed, conclude, as you doe, with an addresse to the Reader, but with a necessary transmutation of your termes, Now Reader judge whether mis-interpretation be not a word sooner said then proved, as well as mis-application, and whether it be my mis-interpretation, or his mis-application. Here he ends his ex­ceptions against me; and here I fixe my period of Apology a­gainst them.