THE HORN OF THE He-goat broken: OR AN ANSWER to a lying Book called, The chasing the young Quaking Harlot out of the Citie.
Published by a scorner of the Truth, called Thomas Winterton.
His Deceit and Ignorance laid open, his lies reproved, and the Quaeries answered, for the sake of the simple.
By a lover of Righteousnesse, called, Richard Huberthorn.
LONDON, Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black-spread-Eagle at the West end of Pauls, 1656.
TO THE READER.
THE time is come and coming, wherein the God of Heaven is setting up his Kingdome, which is not carnall but spirituall, and establishing his Throne in righteousnesse, and the day is appeared and appearing, wherein all that oppose him shall be ashamed. Now when he is declaring his righteousnesse and his saving health in the Nations, and now the Man of Sin and Antichrist is discovered, and the hidden things is brought to light: and now when his enemies cannot hide themselves any longer, but their shame must appeare who are covered, and not with the spirit of the Lord. Therefore I say, because the Lord in his mercy hath caused his marvellous light to arise in the earth, the Prince of darknesse is angry, and all his subjects, because their judgement drawes nigh, and their strength must be thrown down: And as the Lord hath made manifest his light more than in some generations past: Therefore the rage of the old Dragon is greater, and his Angels and Instruments who are to be taken with the Beast and the false Prophet, and shut up in the pit, and sealed in utter darknesse for ever, and therefore he is come forth in his power and his strength, and all his subjects every one with such weapons as they have, some with clubs, some [Page] with prisons, whippings, reproaches and mockings: some with their corrupt sensuall wisdome, to oppose some with lies and slanders; but all is at work to defend their Masters Kingdome, and would not have the man to rule (Christ Jesus) who will judge all their unrighteousness, and bring down the Beast out of his seat: amongst whom thou mayst see Tho. Winterton sitting neer his Master, unto whom he is fallen upon the throne of unrighteousness. In a former Book he denied any thing above nature to guide man; and in this his last book would judge of us by his evill consequence, and he hath denied that he hath any thing that is infallible; but he saith he judges by his imaginary faculty, and he judges us in the 15. page to be Harlots, because we speak plain language, as Thou, and so hath made all the holy men of God, Harlots and adulterers, who used the same; and so blasphemously against the spirit of truth hath set him self, and makes lies his refuge, as the rest of the Dragons Army do: and therefore these few things mind, wherein his shame is laid open, and his lies denied, and his sensuall Quaeries answered, which rose from his imaginary faculty. And so take heed Reader thou come not in the way of the liers, nor lend thy ear to the wicked, but mind the light of Christ Jesus, which will shew thee men of corrupt minds and corrupt things, and seeing in the single eye. In vain doth the Fowler spread his net in the sight of the Bird. Try all things by measure of the Spirit, hold that which is good. A friend to righteousness I am, and a lover of thy soul.
An Answer to Tho. Winterton his Book, which he affirmeth to be a Chasing of the young quaking Harlot out of the Citie; which if those that he writes against be not by it chased out of the Citie, then all may take him to be a false Prophet, which reads what he hath affirmed by his book to be brought to passe.
IN thy former Book thou hast been proved to deny the Father, Son, and Spirit; and denied that there is any thing in thee above nature: And in this book also thou hast made it manifest to be guided onely by the naturall senses, and so to be sensual, having not the Spirit: and so in this thy sensuall wisdom without the Spirit of God, thou goest about to prove us to be the Harlot, and to be upon two dangerous designes; the first by our Doctrine, the second by the Sword First as from our Doctrine, to prove it, thou bringest four particulars, as first, that we say;
That the peoples senses, understanding and reason, were carnall, fleshly and unto condemnation.
To which I answer, All people which hate the light of Christ as thou dost, and set up reason and imagination to be their guide, & knows nothing above nature in them, their senses are reprobate, and their understandings darkned, and their reason carnall and fleshly, which is for condemnation with the light: And to those thar were sensuall, whose reason was carnall and fleshly, did the Apostles minister condemnation, as thou may read in the Scriptures, and yet that proved them not to be harlots; but their design in their doctrine was, to exalt Christ, which is the true light, and [Page 2] lightneth every one that cometh into the world, and our design is the same, against which no inchantmens, lies, nor false accusations from Priests nor Atheists can prevail.
The second particular wherein thou would prove us to be the Harlot, and our design to be dongerous is, because we say, That Christ lightneth every one that cometh into the world. And to this thou thy self in the fifth page of thy Book confessest to be a truth clear from Scripture; and that this light discovers to every one (that will) both good and evil: and in the fourth page thou callest this particular, That Christ hath lightned every one that comes into the World, a pure truth; and yet thou would make the people believe that we were the Harlot for holding forth the pure truth; and so thy own breath as fire shall devoure thee. And hereby the pure truth of God which we hold forth, is cleared, and thou broken to pieces by the stone upon which thou fallest. But all thy Atheisme, and all the Priests doctrine cannot make the people so blind as to believe, that holding forth the pure truth of God, will make us to be an Harlot, or our design dangerous: and here thou hast manifested thy spirit, that all may see what we are accused for, & by whom, being accused to be harlots, hereticks, deceivers and deluders, blasphemers and dangerous, because we hold forth the pure truth of God according to the Scriptures; yea so far hath God turned the wise backward, and made their wisdome foolishnesse, that even our enemies and accusers are forced to confesse, that it is holding forth the pure truth according to the Scripture, for which we are accused, as T. Winterton hath done, to his own shame and confusion.
The third particular from which thou would prove us to be the harlot, and our designes dangerous, are in these words, which thou sayst thou gathered from our Doctrine.
That who so believes in this light, it is as a fire and a hammer to break and cousume all carnall lust, and sleshly and selfish desires whatsoever, that now they cannot sin.
Ans. Here thou hast gathered that which we have not strewen, and in thy imaginations thou hast gathered thy evil thoughts, conceiving of that which never was spoken from us as thou spakest it, and now they cannot sin: But this I say, that he that believes in the light, and follows Christ who is the light, shall have the light of life, and shall never come into condemnation, [Page 3] if he abide in the light which cometh from Christ, the Word which is as a fire and a hammer, which where it dwels consumes all carnall and fleshly lusts. And hereby it is easily known who have the word from them, who have but the letter. And whereas thou sayest that light is but to discover, and not active at all; here thou hast shewed thy self to be ignorant both of the light and of the Scripture, which saith the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and it shall burn up and devoure his thorns and bryers in one day. And this light was witnessed to burn and consume that which is contrary to it: and whereas thou sayest, that if we will be purged, we must seek something else, for light will not doe it. I answer, God is light, as in 1 John 1. 5. and Christ is the light, John 8. 12. and if God and Christ who is the light, wil not do it, then what else must people seek unto to be purged? And again thou sayst, thou deniest that light or any thing within man or without man, doth or ever did so cleanse, purifie and make perfect the souls of men: and then thou addest, to make up thy dark saying, as that it were safe & convenient to allow them no other guide or director but the dictates of their own light & spirit within them: As for the later, thou mayst take it as thine own, for we deny all those which walks after their own, whether thou call it light or dictates, for that which is their own is darknesse and not light; but those that follow the light of Christ, and deny that which is their own for his sake we own. And as for thy former, to deny that light, or any thing within or without man, doth or ever did cleanse or purifie and make perfect the sons of men; let all here take notice of thy Atheisme, who hath denied Christ and his light either within or without men to do it.
The fourth particular by which thou would prove us to be the Harlot, and our design dangerous, is in these words, That now the Scripture is no more a guide for us to walk by, nor nothing without them, but the light within them, and he that seeks after any other guide but that within him, is in the flesh still. Which words are thy own, and was not so spoken by any of us.
But to thee. I say, that the Scripture which did foresee that which we now do see, we own to be one with the light which was before the letter, and to be our guide in the way of truth: and this guide is within us, but by the Scripture letter without thee; thou neither sees nor foresees the things which belong to [Page 4] eternall life, which if ever any come to see, it must be by the light of Christ within them, and all who own this light, and with it is guided, cannot deny the Scriptures which was spoken sorth from the light within.
Again, thou wouldst accuse E. B. to be changing in his doctrine from one thing to another, because he said, that all strife and contention, & revenge, was of the flesh, and of the Divel, and to be condemned with the light: which testimony is also true, and this testimony can we never deny nor change from. And whereas thou bringest his salutation to contradict that, where he saith, Make war in righteousness against Gog and Magog, and prepare for the Lord. Herein thou hast manifested thy blindness, which cannot see the war which stands in righteousness, from that which proceds from the lust: but as thou hast imagined carnally of all the things of God, which was spoken from the same spirit: and so as well may thou make lies, and pervert our words, as thou dost the Scriptures: and now having published many lies against us, thou makest a profession of thy own condition, that all people may see from what thou judgest us to be in delusion, thy words are these: Now forasmuch as I have not an infallible spirit, infallibly to interpret what may be intended in these revengefull expositions, notwithstanding my imaginary faculty might find ground enough of bad consequence in them, yet I shall leave them to better judgements, as in the ninth page of thy book.
Ans. Thy now leaving of us to better judgments, or to them that have the spirit of truth, will not excuse thee for what thou hast done already, that hath had nothing to judge us by all this while, (that thou hast spoken and written against us) but evill consequences out of thy imaginary faculty. How art thou fallen from what thou seemedst to pretend against us in thy books; as if thou hadst known that we had held forth false doctrine, or intended a carnall war, because we speak of a war in righteousness. But now thou speakest plainly, that thou hast not the spirit of Truth, truly to interpret what we intend in our expressions; but leaves it to better judgements: Here thou hast manifested thy self a soolish builder, it had been lesse shame for thee if thou hadst not begun, then having begun in thy imaginary faculties and bad consequences, and now confessest thou wantest the spirit of Truth; here thou hast proved thy selfe to be the Harlot, [Page 5] and fit to be chased out of the Citie, who doth raise strife, accusations and lies against the truth of God from thy imaginary faculties and bad consequence, being without the spirit of truth. Again, in thy answer to E. B. salutation, thou boasts from thy imaginary faculty, and sayst in thy 11. page, O thou proud, presumptuous, ambitious Quaker, whence is thy originall? thou art not yet seven years old, and art thou the onely people of the whole creation, in the favour of the Almighty; therefore wo be to them that live to see thee prosperous to a manly age.
Answ. Our original is before all ages, or the number of years, and before any imaginary faculties (which is thy rule) was, and this in time being brought forth, which before all time was, they who are found in their imaginary faculties, as thou art, the woe comes upon them; and thy woe and torment will increase, as the truth increaseth; as it was from Christ to the Jewes, Scribes and Pharisies, in the dayes of his flesh, who questioned the truth of his words from the youngnesse of his years, as thou dost his truth now, having nothing to judge with but thy imaginary faculties, having not the infallible spirit, and yet thou goes on accusing us, that we deny all matter and form of worship. I say, where the spirit of truth is, which thou sayst thou hast not, there is both the matter & form of the true worship owned, & not denied; which spirit we have, and know both the matter and form: but in thy imaginary faculties there is neither. And whereas thou sayest, that we deny actuall obedience, and the authority of the Scriptures; that is false: for by that authority that gave forth the Scriptures, are we daily in actuall obedience to the Lord. Again, thou bringest severall particulars, which thou callest the markes of the Harlot by which she may be known: as first, in her language, which is to speak the word Thou to a particular person in stead of You, thou wouldst make the language of the Harlot; then all the Prophets, Christ and the Apostles, did speak the language of the Harlot; and then the Scripture is translated in the language of the Harlot, which doth not use the word You to any particular person. But here thou hast made it more manifest to be without the spirit, and to speak from thy imaginary faculties.
[Page 6]The second mark is her weapons, which is, saying, that people is carnall, and in the flesh, and that they know not the light of Christ, but stumble at the stumbling-stone, and are in the cursed ground, and that they cannot believe though the truth be declared unto them, they having not the spirit, but are in their sins, And this thou sayest is the weapon of the Harlot.
Ans. Now these words were all used by the Ministers of the most high God against the Harlot, as thou art manifest to be, who stumbles at the stumbling-stone as it is written, Rom. 9. 32. John 11. 9, 10. Here thou may see they which were no harlots told them they stumbled at the stumbling-stone, and told some that they were carnall, 1 Cor. 3. 3. and the Prophet told them they had eyes and could not see, ears and could not hear, and hearts and could not understand, Isai. 44. 18. and this was no mark of a Harlot in the Prophet; but they whom he said was so, was harlotted from the Lord, and Christ told them, that they were yet in their sins, and told them they should die in their sins, John 8. 24. if they believed not, and told them they were of their father the Divell, and had not known God, but was from beneath, John 8. And these things in Christ was no mark of a harlot, but they were harlots whom he so judged, and so thy marks disprove thee.
The third mark, Her presumption, attempting to share with the Almighty: And this which thou calls presumption, is to be guided by God; and hereby thou doth accuse all the Saints of God, for they all did so far presume, as to be guided by God and by his Spirit, and to say that all the chldren of the Lord should be taught of the Lord, and this was no presumption, nor no mark of the harlot; and they said, as he is so are we in this present world: and this was no presumption, nor the mark of the harlot, but humility; if thou wert not blind thou would see it.
The fourth mark is, pretending to own the Scriptures, and speak much of Religion, and yet hath nothing in matter, form or essence.
Ans. This hath marked out thy condition, that pretends to own the Scriptures, and prosesseth them, and hath not that Spirit which gave them forth, being guided by thy imaginary faculties, [Page 7] and so without the power and effect of that which thou professeth: but we by that spirit which gave them forth, do them professe; and have the form, power, and effect, of what we doe professe; and so the mark of the harlot returns upon thy self, which in to presume without the spirit.
The fifth mark, her attendance; the ignorant and the lewd.
Answ. If this be the mark of the Harlot, try thy self; for who is more ignorant than he that wants the infallible spirit, as thou confesseth thou dost. For this mark of the harlot thou clears us from in the sixth page of thy book, who there accuseth us of subtilty: and in the 16 page, of ignorance; and so thou multiplies thy confusion and ignorance And for lewdnesse, thou may own the guilt of that thy self: for if thou wert not both lewd & mad in thy divinations; thou would not have so falsly accused those that have the spirit of God, confessing thy self not to have it; but that it is that thy folly may more speedily be made manifest unto all men, that the Scripture upon thee may be fulfilled.
The sixth mark, her kindred, and that is the Ranters, which thou sayst is the mark of the Harlot.
Herein thou hast numbred thy self, thy own testimony being a witnesse to it, and thy guide which is thy naturall senses, and corrupt reason, knowing neither light nor spirit of Christ within, and therefore no restraint thou knows from thy divers lusts, but both the Ranters and thou in your sensuall liberty is found, and by us you both are denied; for from that kindred we are redeemed, and from all harlots marks.
The seventh mark is, she is the youngest of all Harlots, little above five years old.
Answ. If thou would prove us to be the Harlot from the youngness of years, as little above five, then thou must deny that which thou hast asserted against us in the 13 page; for there thou would prove us to be false Prophets from those fruits that Christ spoke of, Matth 7. 15. And if thou prove any thing against us from that in Matth 7, then it is not from the youngness of years; for that is above five yeares since: so these confusions I return unto thee again, that thou may see that blindnesse and confusion is the sign of the harlot.
Now as in answer to thy Quaeries.
Quaerie 1. VVHether if it be not lawful to presuppose things that are not, to find out the truth of things that are? and if so then,
Ans. It is not lawfull for thee to intrude into things which thou hast not seen, vainly puffed up in thy fleshly mind. Thou that goes into things that are not, to find out the truth of things that are, goes from God, the truth that is, into a lie, and thy presupposing things there, is not lawfull, neither canst thou find ought there; for nought brings forth its like, being gone from God that is.
2. Whether there had been any need of Christs coming in the flesh, if Adam had stood in his created estate?
Ans. Christs coming in the flesh is that everlasting Covevant in which the Creation stands, and in wbich Adam had his created estate, and so there was need of that which gave Adam his being and recovery.
3d and 4th Whether Christ restored to believers any more than Adam lost? And whether there be any ground to believe that any in this life hath more communion with God, or are more pure or perfect than Adam was in Paradise?
Ans. Art thou got above the Innocencie in thy imaginations, and hast the ground of thy belief to seek? First come down out of thy imaginations, that thou mayes feel the ground of Faith; till then thou art no believer, and thereby be led up into a persect state, to have communion with God in Paradise, till then thou art in that which Adam lost, and cannot understand an estate above, nor believe it though it be told thee, that which now enquires must lose its life ere thou come into Paradise. Gods secrets must not feed Serpents.
5. Whether Adam in Paradise did not partake of that light with which Christ lightneth every one that cometh into the world?
Ans. The life of Adam in Paradise is the same that is the light of the word wherewith he lightneth every one that commeth [Page 9] into the world, and of this Adam did partake in Paradise, which gave him light and understanding; which when he went into the selfish knowledge, he became bruitish, and this a witnesse against him.
6. Whether this light of Christ, and all other lights (within man) if any there be, are not seated in the understanding and mind? and whether all mens surest light is not conveyed through the senses to the understanding? and whether this will not more clearly appear, if considered, that the stopping of the current of the senses, the understanding becometh totally dark as unto certainties, it having nothing there to nourish it but imaginations?
Answ. In this thou shewes thy confusion with thy many lights, but hast lost the knowledge of the true light, and so utters thy darkiness. First asks if the light be not seated in the understanding, and then asks if it be not conveyed through the senses to the understanding; but the surest light is conveyed by faith thereof born in the understanding and not by thy sense, and to thy wits end that is carnall must thou come if this thou learn, for the mystery is held in a pure conscience, and not in thy sensuall understanding; and who knowes this, hath their understanding enlightned by faith, and not by the current of the naturall senses.
7. and 8. Whether it argueth not darknesse in the understanding to determine any thing reall or certain, which was not conveyed by the senses to the understanding; whether for want of this consideration, many hath not been possessed with as strong a confidence of a certainty, as all their powers both of soul and body could procure, yea to the laying down of their lives, and yet a meer imagination.
Ans. To determine any thing before the Lord, argues darknesse in the understanding, but what he reveals in the spirit of faith, and leads into by his light, and not by the sensuall understanding; and for want of this consideration have many been possessed with a strong confidence of a certainty, and not having found their ends therein, have turned back again into deceit, ready to conclude there is no God, because he would not answer their imaginations, who determined things in their [Page 10] own wills before the guiding of his spirit; and see if hereof thou be not guilty.
9 Whether John Lilburn was not as confident that God own [...]d him in his Religion opposing the powers of this Nation, as Saul was in his designe to Damascus? and whether Sauls conversion to a Christian, and John Lilburns resolving to a Quaker, be upon one and the same ground?
Ans. That Jo. Lilburn was confident in his Religion, is plain, else had he not so long been deceived, and that God owned him in opposing many of the unjust powers of the Nation, is as plain, else had not he lived to have been converted, and that the ground thereof, is the same wherewith Paul was converted, is as evident as the rest, to them that are in the light, and out of the immaginations; and your envy to him since he owned the truth is no small testimony of it, and so all things testifying together, the tree will be known by its fruits, to them that are not blind.
10. Whether God did not convey this new light or dispensation to Sauls und [...]rstanding through his senses [...], in that it is said he heard and saw, as a sure ground to build his faith upon, and also whether he did not give him power and authority by signes and wonders, to convey to the understanding of those to whom he mas sent to convert, a sure ground of faith also.
Ans. Here thou hast manifested that thou art blind and in confusion; for the ground of faith is but one in Paul and those that were converted, and this ground of faith is not of Man, nor conveyed from one Man to another, but it is the gift of God, and Christ is the author of it. In thy Quaerie thou art speaking of the light in which he heard and saw, being the ground of Pauls faith, and the signes and wonders wrought by Paul, being a sure ground to convey faith to the people: if thou wert not blind thou would see, that in Paul and the People the ground of faith is but one; and they that believed because of the Miracles, their faith as thine doth, stands in that which is changeable, and is not from the true ground: but those which Paul preached unto, he told them that the Word of Faith was within them: the word which he preached, and the light was in them, and so he was to turn them, to the light [Page 11] and to the word which was within them: And whereas thou asks, whether it was not conveyed through the senses to the understanding, first learn to know where it is, and what it doth enlighten in thee, and then thou wilt know what it is conveyed through, for as yet in thee thy senses is ignorant of it, though it shine in darkness.
11. Whether if Jo. Lilburne have receaved the same ground of faith, so conveyed to his understanding immediately from God, as Saul had, or by some other whom God hath endued with power and authority, to convey a ground of faith as Paul did, then far be it from me for blaming of J. Lilburne for being a Quaker: otherwise, whether if he have not receaved the ground of faith aforesaid, whether it be not easie to discern that Jo. Lilburnes Resurrection is but a mear immagination or Quaking Delusion.
Ans. Faith is the gift of God, and not the gift of Paul, and herein thou art blind, and Christ saith believe in the light, while ye have the light; but he did not bid them believe in that which was of Man, nor conveyed by Men to one another: yet thou confesseth that it was conveyed to Paul immediately from God: Therefore seeing thou makes a difference, shew who did ever receave faith, or the ground of it, and not from God: and what was the ground of Abrahams faith and Enochs, before the Scripture letter was written, but the ground of Jo. Lilburns faith is immediately from God as Pauls was, and therfore thou may cease blaming of him for his being turned to the faith.
12. Whether it be not easie to find out whether the Quakers doctrine be a dispensation of God, or a dispensation of mans wil? whether if it be of God, he will not take the same care for the devulging of it as he did of his former dispensations? that is, by such evidences as no falfe Minister could procure: as when he commanded his Apostles to preach to the world, and to baptize them that believed, and to teach them to observe all things, &c.
Ans. Although our Doctrine be of God, yet to thee and all in that nature, it is not easie to know, nor find to be so, for none knowes our Doctrine, wherher it be of God, but he that doth the will of our Father, and walk in his obedience, [Page 12] and it is manifest that thou yet hates the way whereby our Doctrine is known, for thou having not the spirit of truth, how art thou like to know that Doctrine which is of God, from immaginations, that which thou tries withall being thy immaginary faculty, but that the Lord takes the same care for his Ministers now as ever he did, is manifest even by such evidences as no false Minister can produce; for never any of the false Ministers which the Lord did not send, did turn any from their iniquity, nor from darkness to light, nor from the power of Satan unto God, which now many do witness from the Ministery which God hath now raised up in this age; which is the torment of the false Prophet, for if it had not been evidenced in power and by the spirit of the Lord, to be contrary to the false Doctrine, especially in turning people from the wickedness which your Doctrine keeps them in, then it might have found favour amongst you, and would not so much have been dispised; but to us it is an evident token of salvation, and that from God, though to you of perdition.