The substance of a conference at a committee of both Houses, in the painted chamber, October 27. 1641. Managed by Iohn Pim Esquier, and Oliver Saint-Iohn His Majesties sollicitor generall, on the behalfe, and by the command of the House of Commons. Concerning the excluding the thirteene Bishops, impeached by the Commons of England (for making and execution of the new canons) from all votes in Parliament, and for the excluding of all the rest of the Bishops, from their vote in the bill lately sent up to the Lords to take away the Bishops votes in Parliament. England and Wales. Parliament. 1641 Approx. 10 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 4 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2011-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 2). A83499 Wing E2316 Thomason E173_16 ESTC R17726 99860255 99860255 112372

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Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 2, no. A83499) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 112372) Images scanned from microfilm: (Thomason Tracts ; 30:E173[16]) The substance of a conference at a committee of both Houses, in the painted chamber, October 27. 1641. Managed by Iohn Pim Esquier, and Oliver Saint-Iohn His Majesties sollicitor generall, on the behalfe, and by the command of the House of Commons. Concerning the excluding the thirteene Bishops, impeached by the Commons of England (for making and execution of the new canons) from all votes in Parliament, and for the excluding of all the rest of the Bishops, from their vote in the bill lately sent up to the Lords to take away the Bishops votes in Parliament. England and Wales. Parliament. Pym, John, 1584-1643. St. John, Oliver, 1598?-1673. [2], 5 p. s.n.], [London : Printed in the yeare 1641. Place of publication from Wing. Reproduction of the original in the British Library.

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eng Church of England -- Bishops -- Temporal power -- Early works to 1800. Impeachments -- England -- Early works to 1800. Church and state -- England -- Early works to 1800. 2020-09-21 Content of 'availability' element changed when EEBO Phase 2 texts came into the public domain 2010-12 Assigned for keying and markup 2011-01 Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2011-02 Sampled and proofread 2011-02 Text and markup reviewed and edited 2011-06 Batch review (QC) and XML conversion

THE SUBSTANCE Of a Conference at a COMMITTEE of both HOVSES, in the PAINTED CHAMBER, October 27. 1641.

Managed by IOHN PIM Eſquier, And OLIVER SAINT-IOHN His Majeſties Sollicitor Generall, on the behalfe, and by the Command of the Houſe of COMMONS.

Concerning the Excluding the thirteene BISHOPS, Impeached by the COMMONS of ENGLAND (for making and Execution of the New CANONS) from all VOTES in PARLIAMENT, and for the excluding of all the reſt of the BISHOPS, from their VOTE in the Bill lately ſent up to the LORDS to take away the Biſhops Votes in Parliament.

Printed in the Yeare 1641.

Maſter PIM ſpake to this Effect following.

THat Parliament the fountaine of Iuſtice, ought to be preſerved pure. From Corruption and be preſerved free from partiality. Which will adde not only Luſtre, Reputation, and Honour, but Authority, to what is done in Parliament. All mens eſtates and liberties are preſerved under the ſafe Cuſtody of Parliament; This moveth us to bee carefull of any thing that may prejudice the Parliament. In point of Freedome, and Integritie.

That therefore the Knights, Citizens, and Burgeſſes of the Houſe of Commons had commanded him with his Colleague, to repreſent unto their Lordſhips Two Propoſitions, which they hold of very great Importance, and Neceſſitie to be put in Execution at this time.

Firſt that thoſe thirteene Biſhops which ſtand accuſed before your Lordſhips for making the late Booke of Canons, and putting them in Execution that they may be excluded from their Votes in Parliament.

Secondly, That all the Biſhops may be excluded from having any Vote in that Act. Come from the Houſe of Commons, to your Lords. Lord-ſhips Entituled an Act to take away the Biſhops Vote in Parliament, &c.

That, that which concerneth the thirteene Biſhops, falleth to his charge to open; That he is commanded to tell their Lords ſhips that it ſtandeth with Honour and with juſtice, that theſe Biſhops ſtanding thus charged with the breach of Truſt, and of the Higheſt Truſt, againſt the Prerogative of the King, againſt the Priviledge of Parliament, againſt the property of the Subject, and againſt the peace of the Kingdome. Theſe are the Iewels that are depoſed under the Truſt and ſafe-gard of Parliaments; And all theſe have been broken, and this appeareth by the making of the new Canons Voted by You Lordſhips to be againſt all theſe Truſts.

That theſe Perſons have beene parties to the breach of this Truſt, that will appeare by the Iournalls of the Convocation, which is now in the Country, and may bee ſent for; The Entry of the Book is, that all the thirteene Biſhops were Parties and did confirme and ſubcribe theſe Canons; Therefore it is hoped by theſe Canons, that theſe that have aſſumed to themſelves a Legiſlative power whereby they have as much as in them lye rooted out the foundation of Parliament; That they ſhould have no Intereſt in the Legiſlative power at all in Parliament.

Next that thoſe that have deprived the Subjects of thoſe good Lawes that are already made for them, that they ſhould have no intereſt or part of making future Lawes for the Subject. This they conceive ſtandeth with a great deale of equitie and juſtice, which is one reaſon to deſire they ſhould bee excluded from their Votes in Parliament.

Next is the haynouſneſſe of their offence, It is very fit they ſhould bee Innocent men, and faithfull men, that ſhould have the exerciſe of ſo great a thing (as that is) much leſſe Delinquents, of ſo high a Nature, Actors in the ſubverting of the Lawes of the Realme, that they ſhould continue their Votes and places in Parliament. And that their delinquency may the better appeare, deſired Here the Votes were read by Mr. Good-Wyn. to reade the Votes paſſed in the Houſe of Commons (nullo contradicente) and with which the LORDS have concurred and agreed.

Then Mr. Sollicitor ſpake to this Effect following.

THat hee was in the next place to preſent ſome reaſons Mr. Saint-Iohn. and preſidents concerning the Biſhops not having their Votes in the Bill intituled, An Act to take away the Biſhops Votes in Parliament, &c.

Firſt, becauſe they have no ſuch Inherent right, and liberty of being there, as the Lords Temporall, and the Peeres of the Realme have. For they are not there repreſentative of any body elſe, not of the Clergy; If ſo, then the Clergie were twice repreſented by them, in the Lords Houſe and in the Convocation, for their Writ of Election is to ſend two Clerkes Ad conſentiendum, &c. Beſides none are there repreſentative of others, but thoſe that have their ſuffrage from others. And therefore only the Clerkes in the Convocation doe repreſent them.

Next, they have not the Inherent right of Peerage as the Lords have, becauſe in ſome things they cannot doe that there, which the Lords may doe. In caſe of Treaſon and matter of bloud, upon tryall of any Peere, they have no Liberty of Vote, which could not be taken away by any Canon if their Right of Voting there were inherent; But this in the generall.

Next that they ought to bee excluded from their Votes, If they were Repreſentative of the Clergie as a third eſtate and degree, which is this; No Act of Parliament could bee good if they did wholly diſſaſſent, and yet they have diſaſſented and the law good and in force, as in the Booke of Common Prayer, in Queene Elizabeths time they did diſſaſſent from the confirming of that Law, which could not have beene good if they had bin a third eſtate and diſaſſented.

Next that the King may hold his Parliament without calling the Biſhops at all to it which hath beene adjudged by all the ••• ges of England, 7. H. 8. occaſioned by the Convocations, Cyting of one Doctor Standiſh for ſpeaking of words againſt their power and priviledge as they conceived: All the Iudges of England in the preſence of the King declared that the King might hold his Parliament without calling them at all, Therefore to deſire their Votes to be excluded in this Bill.

25. E. 1. In reſpect the Prelacie would not agree with the reſt of the Kingdome in granting a reaſonable and neceſſary ayde and ſupply, they were excluded 35. E. 1. In the Parliament at Carlile, for it will bee brought to this, that when themſelves were conconcerned, they were excluded their Votes; And before that Parliament an Act paſſed of ſeverall oppreſſions of the Abbots, Pri rs and Biſhops, upon the inferior Clergie of the Kingdome, by purveyance and ſetting of high priſes, &c. to bee Collected, and ſi e or ſeaven Acts more all to this purpoſe; Concerning the carriage of the Prelates to the Inferior Cleargie, this Act was long in debate but in 25. E. 1. at Carlile it was thus. That the King Habito tractatu, &c. with the Earles, the Barons, and other the Nobles, &c. have agreed to this Act of Parliament: Now the Biſhops did not conſent to this; For if they had, they ſhould have beene named before the Earles and Barons: For the degree of Nobility in all ancient Records, is Prelates, Earles, and Barons.

The next Record was in Ed. 1. time ſomething in Treatie concerning the Cardinall and the Cleargie, and thoſe Acts are expreſſed to bee with the conſent of the Earles, and Barons and others of the Laitie, and that doth exclude them.

Here the three Records themſelves were read, which three Records doe all concerne the Cleargie, partly for proviſion of livings and other expences, to Rome and beyond the Seas, and to all theſe three Acts the aſſent is in theſe words: By the Earles, Barons, and other Lay people; And in the ſeverall Orders and degrees of naming them they are omitted, being alwayes in the firſt order, for if th y had Voted, then the Rule ſhould have bin entred that it was agreed by the Prelates, Earles and Barons.

30. R. 2. Ca. There being proviſion the Pope ſhould not make preſentation and that other men ſhould not preſent alone to their owne livings, then the Petition of the Commons was aſſented to by the King and the Lords Temporall.

Then afterwards 7. R. 2. a printed caſe there the ſame queſtion comes againe concerning the Cleargie. And it is recited, It was aſſented unto by the King and Lay-Lords.

FINIS.