THE SUBSTANCE Of a Conference at a COMMITTEE of both HOVSES, in the PAINTED CHAMBER, October 27. 1641.

Managed by IOHN PIM Esquier, And OLIVER SAINT-IOHN His Majesties Sollicitor Generall, on the behalfe, and by the Command of the House of COMMONS.

Concerning the Excluding the thirteene BISHOPS, Impeached by the COMMONS of ENGLAND (for making and Execution of the New CANONS) from all VOTES in PARLIAMENT, and for the excluding of all the rest of the BISHOPS, from their VOTE in the Bill lately sent up to the LORDS to take away the Bishops Votes in Parliament.

Printed in the Yeare 1641.

Master PIM spake to this Effect following.

THat Parliament the fountaine of Iustice, ought to be pre­served pure. From Corruption and be preserved free from partiality. Which will adde not only Lustre, Reputation, and Honour, but Authority, to what is done in Parliament. All mens estates and liberties are preserved under the safe Custody of Parliament; This moveth us to bee carefull of any thing that may prejudice the Parliament. In point of Freedome, and Integri­tie.

That therefore the Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses of the House of Commons had commanded him with his Colleague, to re­present unto their Lordships Two Propositions, which they hold of very great Importance, and Necessitie to be put in Execution at this time.

First that those thirteene Bishops which stand accused before your Lordships for making the late Booke of Canons, and putting them in Execution that they may be excluded from their Votes in Parlia­ment.

Secondly, That all the Bishops may be excluded from having any Vote in that Act. Come from the House of Commons, to your Lords. Lord-ships Entituled an Act to take away the Bishops Vote in Parliament, &c.

That, that which concerneth the thirteene Bishops, falleth to his charge to open; That he is commanded to tell their Lords ships that it standeth with Honour and with justice, that these Bishops stan­ding thus charged with the breach of Trust, and of the Highest [Page 2] Trust, against the Prerogative of the King, against the Priviledge of Parliament, against the property of the Subject, and against the peace of the Kingdome. These are the Iewels that are deposed un­der the Trust and safe-gard of Parliaments; And all these have been broken, and this appeareth by the making of the new Canons Vo­ted by You [...] Lordships to be against all these Trusts.

That these Persons have beene parties to the breach of this Trust, that will appeare by the Iournalls of the Convocation, which is now in the Country, and may bee sent for; The Entry of the Book is, that all the thirteene Bishops were Parties and did confirme and subcribe these Canons; Therefore it is hoped by these Canons, that these that have assumed to themselves a Legislative power whereby they have as much as in them lye rooted out the founda­tion of Parliament; That they should have no Interest in the Legis­lative power at all in Parliament.

Next that those that have deprived the Subjects of those good Lawes that are already made for them, that they should have no in­terest or part of making future Lawes for the Subject. This they conceive standeth with a great deale of equitie and justice, which is one reason to desire they should bee excluded from their Votes in Parliament.

Next is the haynousnesse of their offence, It is very fit they should bee Innocent men, and faithfull men, that should have the exercise of so great a thing (as that is) much lesse Delinquents, of so high a Nature, Actors in the subverting of the Lawes of the Realme, that they should continue their Votes and places in Par­liament. And that their delinquency may the better appeare, desi­red Here the Votes were read by Mr. Good-Wyn. to reade the Votes passed in the House of Commons (nullo con­tradicente) and with which the LORDS have concurred and agreed.

Then Mr. Sollicitor spake to this Effect following.

THat hee was in the next place to present some reasons Mr. Saint-Iohn. and presidents concerning the Bishops not having their Votes in the Bill intituled, An Act to take away the Bi­shops Votes in Parliament, &c.

First, because they have no such Inherent right, and liberty of being there, as the Lords Temporall, and the Peeres of the Realme have. For they are not there representative of any body else, not of the Clergy; If so, then the Clergie were twice represented by them, in the Lords House and in the Convocation, for their Writ of Election is to send two Clerkes Ad consentiendum, &c. Besides none are there representative of others, but those that have their suffrage from others. And therefore only the Clerkes in the Con­vocation doe represent them.

Next, they have not the Inherent right of Peerage as the Lords have, because in some things they cannot doe that there, which the Lords may doe. In case of Treason and matter of bloud, upon try­all of any Peere, they have no Liberty of Vote, which could not be taken away by any Canon if their Right of Voting there were in­herent; But this in the generall.

Next that they ought to bee excluded from their Votes, If they were Representative of the Clergie as a third estate and degree, which is this; No Act of Parliament could bee good if they did wholly dissassent, and yet they have disassented and the law good and in force, as in the Booke of Common Prayer, in Queene Eliza­beths time they did dissassent from the confirming of that Law, which could not have beene good if they had bin a third estate and disassented.

[Page 4] Next that the King may hold his Parliament without calling the Bishops at all to it which hath beene adjudged by all the [...]ges of England, 7. H. 8. occasioned by the Convocations, Cyting of one Doctor Standish for speaking of words against their power and priviledge as they conceived: All the Iudges of England in the presence of the King declared that the King might hold his Par­liament without calling them at all, Therefore to desire their Votes to be excluded in this Bill.

25. E. 1. In respect the Prelacie would not agree with the rest of the Kingdome in granting a reasonable and necessary ayde and supply, they were excluded 35. E. 1. In the Parliament at Carlile, for it will bee brought to this, that when themselves were con­concerned, they were excluded their Votes; And before that Par­liament an Act passed of severall oppressions of the Abbots, Pri [...]rs and Bishops, upon the inferior Clergie of the Kingdome, by purvey­ance and setting of high prises, &c. to bee Collected, and si [...]e or seaven Acts more all to this purpose; Concerning the carriage of the Prelates to the Inferior Cleargie, this Act was long in debate but in 25. E. 1. at Carlile it was thus. That the King Habito tra­ctatu, &c. with the Earles, the Barons, and other the Nobles, &c. have agreed to this Act of Parliament: Now the Bishops did not consent to this; For if they had, they should have beene named be­fore the Earles and Barons: For the degree of Nobility in all anci­ent Records, is Prelates, Earles, and Barons.

The next Record was in Ed. 1. time something in Treatie concer­ning the Cardinall and the Cleargie, and those Acts are expressed to bee with the consent of the Earles, and Barons and others of the Laitie, and that doth exclude them.

Here the three Records themselves were read, which three Records doe all concerne the Cleargie, partly for provision of li­vings and other expences, to Rome and beyond the Seas, and to all these three Acts the assent is in these words: By the Earles, Barons, and other Lay people; And in the severall Orders and degrees of na­ming them they are omitted, being alwayes in the first order, for if th [...]y had Voted, then the Rule should have bin entred that it was a­greed by the Prelates, Earles and Barons.

[Page 5] 30. R. 2. Ca. There being provision the Pope should not make presentation and that other men should not present alone to their owne livings, then the Petition of the Commons was assented to by the King and the Lords Temporall.

Then afterwards 7. R. 2. a printed case there the same questi­on comes againe concerning the Cleargie. And it is recited, It was assented unto by the King and Lay-Lords.


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