BEcause I see in a conference zeal often turns to choler, and because it was desired I would put my mind in writing, that I might the more distinctly be understood, and thereby the better receive solution: I have here beneath set downe what I desire to have shewn (viz.) the Catholick Church distinct from the Church of Rome, and those in communion with her, which by your own propositions below is necessary to be shewn to find the Catholick Church. If this you doe, you may win a soul to your Church: If this you cannot doe, I hope you will not accuse mee for remaining where I am. I have made bold to trouble Mris. M. at her conveniency to present this to you, and at your conveniency crave the favour of your Answer, and am

Then by your saying, the Catholick Church must be distinct from the Church of Rome, and those in her communion.

Wherefore I desire to be shewn the Catholick Church distinct from the Church of Rome, and those in her communion for the last 1100 years; and if it cannot be shewn, it will ne­cessarily follow those were the Catho­lick Church, or else the Catholick Church was not alway visible.

1. BY Letter you desire to have shewed unto you the Catholick Church distinct from the Church of Rome, and those in communion with her: which was at our meeting mani­fested as plainly, as we can distin­guish the whole body from a par­ticular member, or a particular member from the whole body. The body is one thing, the member another; the body is totum compositum, the whole fabrick; the member but a part of it. And this is the particular Church of Rome to the whole Catholick. Chrysost. in 1 Cor. 12. Homil. 30. Every member (as St. Chry­sostome teacheth) hath a proper and a common vertue: it hath likewise a peculiar, and a common form or shape. The hand hath not the shape or strength of the whole man; and yet by the meer shape we know, it is a mans hand. And though we know the Church of Rome by her form, that is, by her Faith and Government, to be a Church; yet hath she not the form or virtue of the whole Church, be she never so Catholick. If she have, then must the Catholick borrow her life and being from Rome, and not Rome from the Catholick. If this par­ticular had the virtue of the whole, then Timothy and Titus might not have given Orders, or censured Delin­quents, [Page 6]or redressed what was amisse at Ephesus and Crete, but by virtue of a Commission from the Church or Bishop of Rome. And yet 1 Tim. 1.3. St. Paul besought Timothy to abide at Ephesus, that he might charge some (those within his Diocese) that they teach no other doctrine then St. Paul had delivered. And Tit. 1.5. for this cause left he Titus at Crete, that he should redresse what was amisse, and ordain Presbyters, as hee had appointed him; not as the Church of Rome directed him. And this was before he had visited that City.

2. But if the Church of Rome be the Catholick Church, Where was the Catholick Church before she became a Church? Was there one; or was there none? If one, then was not that the Romane; since there was yet no such Church. If none, what were Act. 9.31. those Churches throughout all Judea, and Galilee, and Samaria? This was before the Apostles parted from one another to teach all Nations: hitherto we find them in these quar­ters, and no other. And yet at that time the Catholick Church was in being, unlesse the Apostles Creed deceive us. For Ruffin. in Symb. n. 10. that was framed at Jerusalem, before the Apostles went about their great work. And for this end was it made, that it might be Hanc cre­dentibus dandam esse regulam sta­tuunt. lb. credentibus regula, a rule for beleevers; whosoever became Christian, he was to beleeve the Catholick Church: which he could not be­leeve, if it were not in being.

3. Secondly, if Rome be the Catholick Church, then if she be Orthodox, the Catholick Church is Orthodox; if she be Hereticall or Schismaticall, the whole Church must be Hereticall or Schismaticall, as she is. So the Church shall take denomination from her; with her she shall stand or fall. Great reason then we should have an eye to Rome, and relie upon her. But this Church hath been miserably Schismaticall and Hereticall. Schis­maticall; as is to be seen in Platina and Onuphrius; when she had sometimes two, sometimes three Bishops toge­ther; a double, a treble-headed, a monstrous Church. Whereas Concil. Nic. can. 8. in one City there ought to be but one [Page 7]Bishop. That she hath been sufficiently hereticall, is confessed by your own men. And as long as she was in this state, shee was no Church; Cypr. Pom­peio. Haeresis enim Christi sponsa non est, Heresie is no Spouse of Christ; Si Haeretici sunt, Christiani esse non possunt. Tertul. de Praescrip. c. 37. her mem­bers not so much as Christians; if we may beleeve Tertull. and St. Cyprian. And St. Austin saith Aug. de Deut. loc. l. 5. c. 10. Haeretici non per­tinent ad Ecclesiam Catholicam; Hereticks doe not so much as belong to the Catholick Church. So then they that confesse Rome to be Hereticall, grant her to be no Church. And yet who dares say, that the Catholick Church was Schis­maticall or Hereticall, because Rome was so? This were to deny, to destroy the Church. For if Schisma­ticall, she is no body, but shivers. If Hereticall in the chief fundamentalls, at least, Where's the Church? Unlesse, as there were 2 Cor. 11.13. false Apostles, so yee will have false Churches. Such Churches we will have nothing to doe with, unlesse it be to pray for them, and to advise them to Apoc. 2.5. remember, from whence they are fallen, to repent, and to doe their first works.

4. Thirdly, if Rome be the Catholick Church, if any thing be amisse in any particular, the fault is hers, and she ought to mend it. If any mans hand fester, or foot be lame, if a remedy be not sought, the foot or hand are not blamed, but the man, because in time they were not looked to. The reason is, because not the hand or foot, but the man hath both discretion and power to provide a remedy for every member, that is amisse. Thus is it with the Church. This is enough to give any rationall Christian satisfaction, that Rome is not the Catholick Church. More I should not have writ­ten; but that you charge me with certain Propositions; which, you presume, may stand you in much stead, to prove the contrary. I shall shall therefore descend to the Propositions, and your Inferences drawn from thence. The first whereof is this, as you are pleased to pen them.

5. I doe so, both in and from the Apostles time to this present day. But I doe not say, that it was always visible in one and the same place; no, not at Rome it selfe, you think so well of. It hath been more then once, even in that very City under a bushel. The Sun it self is so often under a cloud, that it is not seen in these parts; and yet visible it is in other places. Quomodo solis multi radii, sedlumen unum? Cypr. de Unit. Eccles. The Church is likened to the Sun, which hath many rayes, and yet but one light. That light is not always in the same place, it removes with the Sun: the beams may decay, but the Sun it selfe and the light thereof cannot perish. The Church hath fruitfully encreased far and wide into a multitude: but how many of these have crumbled into nothing? It is much like the Sea, which loseth in one place, and gains in another, and yet continues the same Sea. I [...]. Adulterari non potest Sponsa Christi, incorrupta est, & pudica; the Spouse of Christ cannot be corrupted. Corrupt our selves we may, and depart from her integrity; but we cannot rob her of her essence, or integrity.

6. The Church of God, I say, is always visible, and yet not to every eye: sometimes it is invisible not onely to ordinary eyes, but even to the best of men. 3. Reg. 19.10, 14. Elijah himself complained to the Lord, that he, even he onely was left alone to serve the Lord: whereas all other, in his esteem, were become Idolaters; no face of a Church left in all Israel. But the Prophet was mistaken, the Lord assures him, that Ib. v. 18. there were 7000 in Israel, whose knees had never bowed to Baal. And yet God tells him not where, nor what their names. A visible Church there was at that time, though not visible to Elijah. 3. Reg. 18.13. Visible it was to Obadiah, and to them that met in private Congregations (as in times of persecution, and with us at this day) these knew one another. And if [Page 9]that great Prophet could not discern the Church in his own days, and countrey; would you have me, who am no such Prophet, to point out, where the Church was, when the Western parts were over-run with Popish errors? Though I be not able to shew where, yet it is more then probable, that there were in this very Island 7000 souls, that were not tainted with those errors. It is enough for us to prove them to be errors, to be against Scripture, and the received sense of the Ancient Church; and to cleanse our selves from them.

7. Certainly, under the Law God was not without a Church in Judah. Yet shew me, he that can, where the visible Church was, when 2 Chron. 12.1. Rehoboam forsook the Law of the Lord, and all Israel with him. When the Prophet complained, that 2 Chr. 15 3. for a long season Israel had been without the true God, without a teaching Priest, and with­out the Law. When Ib. c. 28.23. &c. 29.6, 7. Ahaz shut up the dores of the Temple, and made Altars for false Gods in every cor­ner of Jerusalem, and in the Cities of Judah. When 4. Reg. 21.4, 5. in the Courts of the Lords house, Manasseh built Altars for all the host of heaven: Had God at that time no visible Church, think you? or were those ignorant, faith­lesse, idolatrous wretches the visible Church? Neither of these can be; needs therefore must God in those days have a visible Church, though the Scripture expresseth not where, nor who they were. And can we expect, that mans writings should be more exact then Gods records?

8. But God made a promise to the Apostles, that S. Mat. 28.20. he would be with them alwayes, and with their successors, to the end of the world. He did so; and without question he made good this promise, although he were neither with Liberius, Honorius, nor John 22. I have learned of Gregory Naz. to Qui candem fidei doctrinam profitentur, ejusdem quo (que) throni socius est. Qui autem contrariam sententiam tuetur, adversarius quo (que) in throno censeri debet. Greg. Naz. Orat. 21. n. 7. distinguish between successors in place, and successors in faith. He will be with those that suc­ceed in faith and function; not with those that succeed in function onely, and [Page 10]not in faith. Let him sit in what throne he will, he is an adversary to Christ, if he be not a successor in the Orthodox faith. He that succeeds St. Peter, or any good Bishop, and is of a contrary Religion, Ibid. he succeeds them, just as a disease follows health, as darknesse follows light, and frenzie steps into the chair of wis­dome.

9. Boast not too much of this promise: the like was made to the former Priesthood. Num. 25.13. To Phineas the Lord bequeathed the Covenant of an everlasting Priesthood; that is, to him and his seed, as long as that law was to endure. And yet we see, that 2 Chr. 15.3. for a long season Israel was without the true God, without a teaching Priest, and without the Law. Where then was the Church? where the Pro­mise? 4. Reg. 16.10, &c. Ʋrijah the High-Priest built that Altare Da­mascenum, that abominable Altar, according to the pat­tern of that at Damascus. On that he offered, and did many other things contrary to Gods law. 3. Reg. 1.7.25. Abiathar was a Traitour; 2 Mac. 4.8. Jason a Simoniack, and a prophane wretch; and Ib. v. 25. &c. Menelaus one of the veryest beasts that ever lived. Where was then the Priesthood? where the true Religion? And yet we dare not say, that God failed of his promise, or wanted a visible true Church in those dayes. But if it be inquired in whom, and where; it will be an hard matter for either or both of us to manifest. Truth it is, God will continue a Church, though bad people and Priests abuse it. He, and onely he, can discern, and distinguish the wheat from the chaffe, and Apoc. 4.3. those few in Sardis, that had not defiled their garments, from the multitude that had. Ingemuit to­tus orbis, & se Arianum esse miratus est. Hieron. cont. Lucifer. c. Vin­cent. Lirin. c. 6. The world groaned, and wondred to see it self all Arian. But God sees not as man sees; at that time he had a Church; and his eyes beheld it; though it were very difficult for man to point it out. Visible it was to some, and those not over many. Thus much for the Visibility of the Church.

10. It is time now to look toward the second pro­position, wherewith you charge me; which is this, [Page 11] ‘You say, the Church of Rome, The second Proposition. and those in commu­nion with her, are not the Catholick Church, be­cause they have grievously erred, and in one funda­mentall at least.’

What ever I said, I am sure, I have manifested, that the Church of Rome, and those particular Churches in her communion, are not, cannot be, the Catholick Church, no more then some parts of man may be said to be the whole man, or The Church is called the House of God, 1. Tim. 3.15. some parts of an house to be the whole house. But as for the reason, which you impose upon me, I am certain, I never gave it. I never said, these were not the Catholick Church, because they have grie­vously erred, and in one fundamentall at least. This reason was not, could not be given for that purpose; neither was it needfull, or usefull. For had it never erred, the Catholick it could not be, a Catholick it might be; a part, but not the whole. If these, you speak of, be the whole, all other are excluded: and that, your party most un­charitably aimes at. Take Rome at the best, at the highest, Concil. Nic. can. 6. she hath her priviledges among many; not over all: other Provinces must enjoy theirs. And divers Bishops have as large territories, as ever justly had your Pope of Rome. He that hath a desire to know the truth of this, let him consult the 6 Canon of Nice; the 2 & 3 of Constantino­ple; the 28 of Chalcedon, with the 28 & 125 Canons of the African Code: and he shall quickly discern, that Rome in those days was no such wondrous Church. She, no lesse then others, had her bounds, which she might not passe.

11. But, I remember, well, I said, that if there were no other cause, then the maiming of the Lords Supper, I could not communicate with the Church of Rome. The reason is, because our Saviour ordained it to be given in both kinds; and ye have most sacrilegiously robbed the Laity of his blood. By this means yee make the people unfit for martyrdome, if St. Cyprian mistake [Page 12]not. Cyp. l. 1. ep. 2 Quomodo (saith that Father) ad martyrii poculum idoneos facimus, si non eos ad BIBENDUM prius in Ec­clesia POCULUM DOMINI jure communicationis ad­mittimus? How can we make them fit for the cup of Martyr­dome, if first in the Church we doe not by right of communion admit them to DRINK THE CUP OF THE LORD? And againe, How can we shed our blood for Christ who are asha­med to drink the blood of Christ? Cypr. l. 2. ep. 3. Quomodo possumus propter Christum sanguinem fundere, qui sanguinem Christi erubescimus bibere? No, may the people say, we are not ashamed to drink it; but yee are ashamed to give it us to drink; at least to acknowledge the wrong, that yee have done us. We have a right to drink it, but yee have barred us from our right. Thus yee have gone against the sense and practise of the Primitive Church. Yee have also de­parted from the Institution of Christ, Ex Christi institutione Sa­cramenta virtu­tem obtinent. Tho 3 q 64.3. c from which the Sacraments receive their force and virtue. What efficacy then can your half Sacrament be of?

12. But for your further satisfaction, I adde; First, The Church of Rome, and those in communion with her, are not the Catholick Church exclusivè, solely excluding others; however divers of that faction appropriate that title to them. And yet Art. 19. we grant Rome herself to be a Church, that is, a member of the one Catholick, though an erroni­ous member; as a vicious man is a man, or as an ulce­rous member is a part of the body. Though we see her errors, we deny not her essence; but wish she were clean­sed from her corruptions. Secondly, a particular Church cannot be styled the Ʋniversall, and Catholick signifies no­thing else; Si hominem dicas, jam quem­vis hominem dixisti. Athan. de Definit. tom. 2. p. 45. no more then Socrates can be said to be Home in specie, all, or the onely man. Neither can we affirm, that man is the onely animal, the onely sensitive crea­ture, though the most excellent. Yet in the third place, though we deny you to be the Catholick, we acknowledge you to be a Church. Archbishop Lawd. §. 20. n. 3. For that Church, which receives the Scripture as a Rule of faith, though but as a partiall and imperfect Rule; and both the Sacraments as instrumentall causes and seals of grace, though they adde more, and misuse these; yet cannot but be a true Church in essence.

13. It is not then every abuse of Scripture and Sacra­ments; but Haeretici de Deo falsa sentiendo ipsam fidem vio­lan. Quapropter non perti­nent ad Ecclesiam Catholicā. Aug. de Deut. locut. l. 6. c. 10. the razing of the foundation, that ruines a Church, and makes that to be none, which heretofore was one. Of the essence of the Church, I take to be these two; Omnes haereses ad utram­que formam à nostris Eccle­siis provocatae probent se, quaquâ putant, Apostolicas. Tertul. de Praescrip. c. 32. the Catholick faith, and the Apostolick government. The former is the soul of the Church, and gives it life; the other is as the sinews thereof, which knit the members together firmly into one body. Without the former it is built upon sand; and without the other it cannot last. Heb. 11.6. Without the Catholick faith we cannot please God; and without a Bishop the Sacraments will quickly cease. Yea the very communion of the Church must fail; since, according to St. Austin's rule, Non possunt communicare nisi iis quos sedere in sedebus E­piscopalibus au­diebant. Aug. ep. 163. we may not so much as hold communion with any, that have not Episco­pall Sees. Since then yee professe the Catholick faith, and continue the Apostolick government, though mixt with cor­ruptions and encroachments, Archbishop Lawd. § 2 [...] n. 2. we grant you to be a true, but not Orthodox Church. For Integritatis custodes, & recta sectantes. Aug. de verâ Rel. c. 5. Orthodox Chri­stians are keepers of integrity, and followers of right things. Of which the Church of Rome is neither.

14. If then, according to your charge, I did say, that the Romane Church had grievously erred, and in one fun­damentall at least; yet as then, so now, I am, have been, and ever shall be loath, to deny her to be a true Church; since without the Church, no salvation. If you will make her no Church, or a false Church, and put your selves out of all hope, I can pity you, but not help it. In­deed, the pride of that See is such, she will be all, or nothing; either the Catholick, or no Church. It is not therefore to her content, to yeild her to be a Church, since that implyes no more, then that she is a member of the whole. Alas, the Universall she cannot be; Sicut uni­versa terra ex multis terris, & unviversa Ec­clesia ex multis constat Ecclesiis. Aug. de Civ. Dei. l. 13. c. 13. that con­sists of many Churches, as the whole earth consists of ma­ny lands and countreys: and yet but one Earth, and one Church. Neither of them is couped up, or confined within the largest Continent. For my part, I professe [Page 14]with St. Austin, that Aug. contr. Crescon. Gram. l 3. c. 35. I am in that Church, cujus membra sunt omnes illae Ecclesiae, quas ex laboribus Apostolorum natas atque firmatas simul in literis canonicis novimus, the members whereof are all those Churches, which in Scripture we know to have been planted and confirmed by the Apostles industry. And Earum com­munionem, quan­tum me adjuvat Dominus, sive in Aphricâ, sive u­bicun (que) non de­seram. Ib. their communion, with Gods assistance, I shall ne­ver forsake, whether in England, or elsewhere; unlesse these forsake the truth. I shall never leave the Ʋniversall to side with any particular Church. And I would ad­vise your Masters to take heed, lest while, with the Dogge in the Fable, they catch at too much, they lose all.

15. Cyprian. de unit. Eccles. The Church (according to St. Cyprian) is like a Tree, whose boughs are many, but the body one, firmly rooted. Ab arbore frange ramum, fructus germinare non poterit; break the best arme from this body, it will bear no fruit for heaven; the branch it self will wither, and rot, and come to nothing. Hath that Church, you speak of, been heretofore a glorious and happy Church? Glory not too much in that, Ro. 11.18. boast not over the rest of the branches, that have been lesse successefull; thou bearest not the root, but the root thee; thou art but graffed in, as the rest were: and Ib. v. 17. with them thou partakest of the root and fatnesse of the olive tree. Remember also, though there be many branches, yet there is but one originall, one root, that yeelds sap, and life, and fruit to every bough, great or small. Suppose thou be the top-bough, yet rend not, suffer not thy selfe to be rent, from this body. Take heed of this, lest thou become fewell for that dread­full fire.

16. That the Church of Rome hath grievously and dange­rously erred, I need no witnesses but your own family. Stapleton justifies, that Stapleton. Relect. cont. 1. q. 5. A. 3. there is scarce any sin, that can be thought by man (Heresie onely excepted) with which that See hath not been foully stained; especially from the 800 years after Christ. But Stella in luc. 22.31. Stella, and Almain. l. 3. D. 24. q. 1. Almain grant freely, that some of the Bishops of Rome did fall into heresie; and so ceased to be heads of the Church. And though [Page 15]some of that Churches errors at this day be dangerous to salvation, yet Archbishop Lawd. §. 20. n. 23. that judicious Bishop, I then spake of, would not venture to set down, what errors in doctrine may give just cause of separation in this body, or the parts of it one from another. Neither shall I, by Gods grace, be over-bold in this point.

17. The points fundamentall are contained in the Creed; which is (as the Councell of Trent speaks) Concil. Trid. Sess. 3. Et funda­mentum firmum & unicum, not the firm alone, but the onely foundation. And Bellarmine resolves, that Bellar. de Verb. Dei non Scrip. l. 4. c. 11. All things simply necessary for all mens salvation, are expressed in the Creed and Deealogue. If yee have erred in any of these, and grown obstinate in this error, yee are become an Hereticall Church in battering the foundation. And yet we must take notice, that Archbish. Lawd. § 11. n 1. every thing fundamentall is not of a like neernesse to the foundation, nor of equall primenesse in the faith. For there are The. 2^a. 2^•. q. 1. Art. 7. c. quaedam prima credibilia, certain prime principles of faith, in the bosome whereof all other Arti­cles lie wrapped and folded up. What ever Church denies or disbeleives any of these, ceaseth to be not onely Ortho­dox, but Catholick, and so no member of the true Church; since 1. S. Jo. 4.3. every spirit, that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is not of God, but is that spirit of Antichrist. Now, if yee have at any time denied Ib. c. 5.20. this Jesus Christ to be the true God and eternall life, ye were at that time no Church, but an Antichristian Synagogue. But this did Marcellinus, and Liberius, and John 22. (all Bishops of Rome). In those times therefore yee were no Church, but an Antichristian Synagogue. Cypr. Pomp. Haeresis enim Christi Sponsa non est, since Heresie is not the Spouse of Christ.

18. If you doubt of the Minor, Stella makes that good; for he testifies, that Stella in luc. 22.31. Marcellinus sacrificed to Idols; that Liberius assented to the Arians; that is, he denyed our Savi­our to be of one and the same substance with the Father: and that John 22. affirmed, that God the Son is greater then the Father and the Holy Ghost. These batter and undermine the foundation; which what ever Congregation does, it apostatizeth, and is no Church. While then Rome [Page 16]did, and beleeved thus, neither she, nor any of those that communicated with her in these, or any of these heresies, Nulla socie­tas fidei & per­fidiae potest esse. Qui cum Chri­sto non est, ad­versarius Chri­sti est. Cypr. l. 1. ep. 3. were so much as a Church, much lesse the Catholick Church. Especially since all these are contra­ry to the Creed and Catholick faith: Athan. Cre. which faith ex­cept every one doe keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. This Creed our Church appeals to, whether Catholick, or not Catholick; this is the faith she desires to be saved by. He, that faithfully beleives this Creed, is a Catholick; but he, that beleives it not, is no Catholick, neither can he be saved. I am one of Atha­nasius his Catholicks; and with Gods blessing I shall live and die so.

19. But I know, what you drive at. You were plea­sed to ask, where our Church was before the Reformation? It was answer'd, in the Catholick. Next, you inquired, whether the Catholick were alwayes visible? The reply was affirmative; both here, and in other places. But be­fore the Reformation we communicated with Rome; and since we have not. That's no fault of ours; yee will no suffer us to communicate with you, unlesse we commu­nicate with your errors. And yet we shall, maugre Satan, communicate with the Catholick Church, while Ro. 15.6. with one mind and one mouth we glorifie God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, according to this, the Nicene, and the Apostles Creed. While we pray for the Church Univer­sall, and for all Bishops, Pastors, and Curates thereof: While we pray for all Gods people; for all that have er­red, and are deceived; even for our enemies, persecutors, and slanderers: While we continue the Apostolick go­vernment; and while we not onely receive, but ad­minister the Sacraments according to Christs holy Or­dinance, we shall be in the communion of the Catholick Church.

20. Truth it is, as that judicious Bishop told Mr. Fisher, Archbishop Lawd. § 21. n. 1. the cause of the Schisme is yours; for yee thrust us from you, because we called for Truth, and redresse of abuses. What was then to be done? must we swallow untruths, and [Page 17]wink at abuses, that we may collogue and communicate with you? It had not wont to be so; every Province had wont to reform it selfe. And so she did not trans­gresse the Faith or Canons of the Church Catholick, the reformation was both legall and commendable. We did so with our Provinces, following therein the ancient Canons of the Church, which assure us, that Concil. Con­stantinop. can. 2. every Provinciall Synod is to order all things within the Province. And for full satisfaction, those Fathers of Constantinople justifie this Canon by the Decrees of the Nicene Councel. Indeed sometimes Ib. can. 6. it may happen, that the businesse will prove to be of such consequence and circumspecti­on, that a Provinciall Synod is not fit to determine it. What is then to be done? That very Canon says, Ib. in such a case we must not make our addresse to a Generall Councel; but to a greater Synod of the Bishops of that Diocese, called together for that purpose. But we must observe, that in the ancient both Civil and Ecclesiastical acceptation, Dixcesis multas sub se habet provincias. Balsam. in conc. Chalced. Can. 9. a Diocese contains in it many Provin­ces. This Councel we ought not to decline, by mo­lesting the Emperour, or any secular Magistrates, with complaints; as our late Ministers have done. This is not canonicall, and the complaint is not to be admitted. We are therefore to take notice, that Notit. Imp. l. 2. c. 48. the three Bri­tains were a Diocese of themselves, and had a Praefectus Prae­torio for Civil, and a Primate for Ecclesiastical affaires. Cantuariae prima sedes Ar­chiepiscopi habe­tur, qui est toti­us Angliae Pri­mas & Patriar­cha. Guil. Malmesbur. in Prologo l. 1. de Gest. Pontif. Angl. p. 195. The Primate or Patriarch is the Archbishop of Canterbury. So then our Reformation is not after any new, or late­ly invented model; it is according to the ancient course and canons of the Church; and therefore justifiable. If we had taken any other course in our Reformation, we had done amisse. For according to the Councel of Constan­tinople, Concil. Con­stantinop. can. 6. we had run into an high contempt; 1. by sligh­ting all the Bishops of this Diocese; 2. by injuring the Canons; and 3. by subverting the Ecclesiasticall order and government.

21. In submission to these Canons, the Church did usu­ally reform both in manners and faith, by Diocesan or Pro­vinciall [Page 18]Councels: as is to be seen in the Code of the Ʋniversal Church, in the African-Code, in Balsamon and Zonaras, in the Councels of Spain, and in the Councels of England, set forth by that pious and worthy Knight Sir Henry Spelman. Much in this kind is readily presented to every eye by our learned Archbishop § 24. n. 4. Where you may see this course approved by your own learned men, Alb. Mag. in 1. Dist. 11. A. 9. Albertus Magnus, and that Gerson de Gen. Concil. Ʋ ­nius obedien. part. 1. p. 222. famous Chancellour of Paris, to be not onely lawfull, but sometimes necessary. Indeed to what purpose is it, to justifie that to be Perfecta Sy­nodus illa est, cui interest & Me­tropolitanus E­piscopus. Cod. Eccles. univers. Can. 95. a full, a per­fect Synod, wherein a Metropolitan is present, if it may not upon just occasion amend, what is amisse within her own precincts? What is it then a perfect Synod for? Other­wise Israel must not have reformed without Judah, nor Judah without Israel. Neither must Laodicea have cast off her wicked courses, unlesse the rest of the Churches in Asia would have joyned in the Reformation. They, that dare say this, are wiser then God Almighty. For he calls to every one of these in particular, to repent, and amend with in themselves, what is faulty. And though Timothy had failed of his duty at Ephesus, it had been no excuse for Titus to wink at abuses and disorders in Crete. Hos. 4.15. Though Israel transgresse, yet let not Judah sinne.

22. Hitherto my Propositions, as you terme them; from whence you inferre, as a necessary consequence, thus;

It must be so, just as a reasonable creature is distinct from Socrates, the species from the individuum, or particular person. Socrates is a reasonable creature; but not all, not the onely reasonable creature: every individual per­son is as much man, as much a reasonable creature, and hath as much of man in him, as Socrates. This will be [Page 19]the more easily discerned, if we look upon St. Paul's com­parison, 1 Cor. 12. who likens the Church to a body con­sisting of many members. One member is not the body, nor the body one member, but many. The body receives not life from the members, but every member from the body. The body can live without the hand, or foot, or eye; indeed without all these: but none of these can live, when sever'd from the body. The Catholick Church hath subsisted without the Church of Rome, but the Church of Rome can­not subsist without the Catholick. The Church did stand without Rome, before Rome was a Church. And the Church was visible in the time of Marcellinus, Liberius, and John 22. when Rome was no member thereof. Cypr. de unit. Eccles. Adulterari non potest Sponsa Christi; though Rome defile her selfe, the Spouse of Christ is not, cannot be made an Harlot. The tree is sound, though the leaves fall, and one or more branches be broken off. The fountain flows comforta­bly, though a rivulet be cut off. The reason is, because Jer. 2.13. Christ, and no particular Church, is the fountain of living waters, 8. Jo. 4.14. that spring up into everlasting life. and they that seek to him for this water, as they ought, shall be sure to have it. Or, as St. Cyprian speaks, the Church is Cypr. de unit. Eccles. luce Domini perfusa, she hath her light not from Rome, but from S. Jo. 1.9. that true light, which enlightens every man, that comes into the world. And we shall be no longer S. Mat. 5.14. the light of the world, then we are furnished with this light.

23. So then, since you will needs have it so, the time was when there was a necessity for the Catholick Church, not onely to be distinct, but diverse from the Church of Rome, and those in her communion; otherwise there had been no Church. I shall give you a satisfactory instance. When Liberius Bishop of Rome turned Arian, to recover liberty, and an honorable Bishoprick; when all Italy and Spain sided with him in that heresie, then was the Catholick distinct from Rome, and those in her communion. For these (if we may beleive Haeretici non pertinent ad Ec­clesiam Catho­licam. Aug. Locut. de Deut. l. 5. c. 10. St. Austin and Si Haeretici sunt, Christiani esse non possunt. Tertul. de Prae­script. c. 37. Tertullian) had no share in the Church, they were not so much as Christians, because Hereticks. St. Hilary of Poictieurs lamented the [Page 20]infamous lapse of this Bishop, professing publickly thus, Hilar. Pict. de Synodis. p. 287. Ex eo intra nos tantum communio Dominica continetur; from that time forward the Lords communion is continued AMONG US ONELY. Onely us? And who are these? that he clears suddenly after in these words; Ib. p. 288. Quidam ex vobis fir­missima fidei constantia INTRA COMMUNIONEM SE MEAM CONTINENTES, SEACAETE­RIS EXTRA GALLIAS ABSTINUE­RUNT: Some of you, with a most firm constancy of faith, containing themselves within my communion, abstained from others without France. Here then was no communion with Rome, unlesse you can prove Rome to be in France; and yet, I hope, a Catholick communion. Boast not then too much of the Romane Church. Wee see in what state it hath been; and into the same state, without Gods great mercy, it may fall again. And when such cause is gi­ven, it shall be lawfull for us in like manner, to hold communion within our selves, in the three Britains, even in England onely. And now, I think, I have shewed you the Catholick Church distinct from the Church of Rome, and those in her communion; such a one, as would have nothing to doe with Rome, while Hereticall.

24. I have done with the Propositions: your desire re­maines, which requires a large library, and a younger man; for your words are these;

What? will no lesse serve the turn then 1100 years; and those together? what's the meaning of this? I never undertook any such thing; neither, as I know, hath this Church, or any of the Fathers thereof said any such thing. Art. 19. Our Articles acknowledge the Church of Rome to be a Church, and call her so. But withall we say, that Ib. those of her communion have erred, not onely in their living and manner of ceremonies, but also in matters [Page 21]of faith. And this hath been prettily well proved out of your own men. So a Church it is, though erroni­ous. We have never declared her to be no Church; neither have our Articles hitherto charged her with Here­sie; but Art. 22. with fond doctrines, vainly invented, and founded upon no warranty of Scripture. Yea, something we blame you with, Art. 29. that is repugnant to the plain words of Scrip­ture. Foure opinions of this kind my Lord of Canterbu­ry taxeth you with; viz. Archbishop Lawd §. 33. n. 13 1. Transubstantiation. 2. The administration of the blessed Sacrament to the Laity in one kind. 3. Invocation of Saints: and, 4. Adoration of Images. Ye have not hitherto quitted your selves of this Inditement; and while his book stands unconfuted, I shall beleeve, that ye are justly charged with these unsound and uncatholick doctrines.

25. Besides, we acknowledge, that Art. 26. in the visible Church the evill be ever mingled with the good. That some­time the evill have chiefe authority in the ministration of the Word and Sacraments. These we deny not to be visible members of the Church; but grant, that Ib. the effect of Christs Ordinance is not taken away by their wickednesse. Though these be bad in and to themselves, oft-times their calling does good to others, like S. Mat. 23.2. &c. the Scribes and Pha­risees in Moses chaire. We are not then so forward to make a separation, as ye are taught to beleeve. Indeed, hardly any but the Church of Rome, hath been so touchy, as to excommunicate whole Churches upon slight occasions. Euseb. hist. l. 5. c. 24. What a stir did Bishop Victor keep about the observation of Easter? He excommunicated divers Churches, because they would not stoop to his lure. Ib. Verum ista caeteris omnibus parum placebant: but this was little pleasing to the rest of the Bishops, and among them, to that famous Bishop of Lyons, Ireneus. Who with divers other Victorem graviùs & acer­biùs coargue­bant. Ib. sharply checked and reproved him for it. These consider'd, that no member can cut off another without mischief to the whole body, even to it self. And the hand ought not to doe it without a commission from the head. For Neque quis­quam nostrum Episcopum se esse Episcoporū constituit: aut tyrannico ter­rore ad obse­quendi necessita­iem collegas suos adegit. Cypr. in Conc. Cart. ag. there is no Bishop of Bishops, as ye conceive: neither may any one Bishop ex­communicate [Page 22]another of his own proper authority. Apost. Can. 34. & Cod. Ec­cles. Ʋnivers. Can. 88. This is the work of a Synod of Bishops. Whoever does it of his own head, offends against the practise of the Church, the Canons, and Scripture it self.

26. Thus also Euseb. hist. l. 7. c. 4. Bishop Steven, though otherwise a good man, carried himself very high, about re-baptizing Hereticks. Whether zeal, or that vain conceit of St. Pe­ter's Chair transported him, I know not; but this I am sure of, he excommunicated all those, that re-baptized Hereticks. But what said that great Bishop of Cappado­cia, Firmilianus, Firmilian. apud Cyp. ep. 75. Teipsum excidisti, noli te fallere, mistake not thy self, thou Bishop of Rome; while thou goest a­bout to cast out others, by this presumption thou hast cut off thy self from the body of Christ, which is his Church. In those days he had no such power. How he since came by it, is laid open to your and every bodies eyes, by Archbishop Lawd, § 25. n. 12.

27. But why for the last 1100 years? Is it because ye dare not trust to the former ages? Wherein we finde Lira in S. Mat. 16. Zepherinus to be a Montanist, Marcellinus an Idolater, Liberius an Arian, and Vigilius an Eutychian. All Bishops of Rome, but no Catholicks. Needs therefore in their times must the Catholick Church be distinct from the Church of Rome. Or is it because for tryall of the truth of Religion, I ap­pealed to the 500. years next after our Saviour? I pro­fesse, I did, and doe so; because it is common in these dayes, even with those that conscientiously pretend to truth, Tanta est quorundam er­randi libido, ut contenti non sint traditâ semel & acceptâ anti­quitus credendi regulâ; s [...]d no­va ac nova in diem quaerant, semper (que) aliquid gestiant religioni addere, mutare, detrahere. Vinc. Lirin. c. 26. not to be content with the rule of faith, which was once delivered to the Saints, and received from them by the Primitive Church, and so transmit­ted to posterity. But we have an itching after new in­ventions; and our glory it is, either to adde, or alter, or pare off something from Religion. These courses I abhorre with a perfect hatred, and am taught to doe so by Ter­tullian, and Vincent. Lirinensis. Yea, some of your owne Bishops have resolved, that Ib. c. 9. Religion admits of no other course but this, ut omnia, qua fide a Patribus suscepta forent, eadem fide filiis consignarentur; that all things be [Page 23]preserved for the children with the same faith, wherewith they were received from the primitive Fathers. And Nos (que) Reli­gionem, non quâ vellemus, ducere, sed potius quâ illa duceret, se­qui oportere. Ib. we must not lead Religion whither we please; but ra­ther we must follow whither that leads. This was the resolution of Stephen Bishop of Rome, an holy and pru­dent man, as Vincentius termes him. Ib. c. 43. Xistus like­wise and Celestinus are of the same minde, they will en­dure no innovations, no additions to Antiquity. Oh, that Rome had always kept close to this rule; then should we have had no such ruptures in the Church, as we now com­plain of, and bewaile.

28. And reason good we have to appeal to Antiqui­ty, which is not partiall towards you, or us, but in­different to both. Ib. c. 8. She never held it meet to main­tain the faction, or conspiracy of any one Province; but Apud ipsam Ecclesiae vetu­statem non par­tis alicujus, sed universitatis ab iis suscepta est defensio. Ib. she stood up in defence of the whole Church, and not for any part thereof. And he can be no good Christian, that does otherwise. St. Cyprian is altogether for this course; Cypr. Pomp. if any thing be amisse, he sends us to the spring head, to finde out the fault. The like counsell is given by Ireneus, Iren. l. 5. c. 4. If difference arise about any small question, nonne oporteret in antiquissimus recur­rere Ecclesias, in quibus Apostoli conversati sunt, & ab iis de praesenti quaestione sumere, quod certum, & quod liquidum est? ought we not to have recourse to the most ancient Churches, (not to that in being) wherein the Apostles themselves con­versed; and from those to take that which is certain and clear about the present question. Observe; from thence we shall have that, which is certain. Why then shall we con­tent our selves with uncertainties? That therefore the third Generall Councell might deal clearly, and upon sure grounds with Nestorius, Vincent. Ligrin. c. 42. it took this very course; hol­ding it to be Catholicissimum, foelicissimum, atque optimum factu, most Catholick, most happy, and meetest to be done, to take into consideration the sentences of those holy Fathers, that were before them. Those they took to be their Masters, their Counsellors, Witnesses and Judges. Their doctrine they held close to, their counsel they followed, [Page 24]to their testimony they gave credit, to their judgment they sub­mitted, and answerably thereto passed sentence upon the diffe­rence then in agitation. Blame not us then, if we ap­peal to the Fathers, and Ʋt rite at (que) solenniter ex eo­rum consensu at (que) docreto an­tiqui dogmatis Religio confir­maretur, & pro­phanae novita­tis blasphemia condemnaretur. Ib. by their unanimous writings judge of Religion, that so we may keep to the old Rules, and avoyd the blasphemies of profane novelty. This was the proper, the onely way then known, and is now, readily to discern, without prejudice, presumption, or partiality, whether ye or we be in the right; what is Ortho­dox, and what not. At this tribunall let us stand, or fall.

29. All this will hardly prevail with you. For (say you) if this cannot be shewn, it will necessarily follow, those were the Catholick Church, or else the Catholick Church was not al­way visible.

Sir, if you can distinguish between man in specie and So­cr [...]s, you may quickly distinguish between the Catholick Church and Church of Rome. For as man is substantially predicated of many differing in number; so is the Church. Though St. Peter be a man, yet is he not the onely man; Judas is a man, as much as he; they both communicate in the same essence, in the same definition; the one is as much a reasonable creature as the other. And it will not excuse the Church of Rome from being erronious, be­cause it is called a Church, and hath the same definition with other Churches. Good and bad, Orthodox and Erronious come not into the definition. The onely defi­nition, or description, of the Catholick Church, that I find in Scripture, is this, 1 Tim. 3.15. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth. From whence I argue, thus;

That Church, which hath erred, is not the pillar and ground of truth.

But the Church of Rome hath erred: Ergo,

The Church of Rome is not the pillar and ground of truth.

The Major is undenyable; the Minor I prove thus:

That Church which hath professed Montanisme, Arianisme, Eutychianisme, hath erred.

But the Church of Rome hath professed all these.

Ergo, The Church of Rome hath erred.

The Major is clear; and the Minor is sufficiently proved, § 18.27. It follows therefore necessarily, that the Church of Rome, neither was, nor is the Catholick Church. And yet the Catholick Church was then visible, when the Church of Rome fell from the Catholick faith, and ceased to be a Church. Euseb. hist. l. 5. c. 15. Montanus, and his Enthusiasmes, were cen­sured, and condemned by the Bishops of Asia, in divers Synods. In those dayes, when Arianisme prevailed at Rome, the Catholick Church was visible Theodoret hist. l. 3. c. 4. at Alexandria, in Sardinia, in France, and other places; all which adhe­red to the Nicene Creed. We know, that Evagr. l. 1, c. 9. Eutyches was condemned at Constantinople, though his heresie were received at Rome. And those heresies which were broa­ched in your beloved City by John 22. were at that time detested in most places of Christendome. Thus the Catholick Church was alwayes visible, when Rome it selfe failed.

30. I have done with your argument; and now, without offence I shall return it upon you thus.

I desire to be shewed the body of Christ distinct from his hand, or arme. And if this cannot be shewed, it will necessarily follow, that those are the body of Christ; or else Christ hath not alwayes had a body.

This will seem a strange Argument; and yet, what answer you make, the same shall I requite you with. For Eph. 1.23. Colos. 1.24. the Church is the mysticall body of Christ. And 1 Cor. 12.14. his body is not one member, but many. The whole body is not the hand; nor the hand the whole body. For Ib. v. 12. as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ. And so is his Church, Ib. v. 13. into which we are baptized. So then (as St. Chrysostome hath it) Chrysost. in loc. Et multa unum sunt, & unum est multa; these many are one, and this one is many; many members, and yet [Page 26]but one body. As they are a body, all these are but one: but as every one of these are a severall part, so they are different. No part alone by and of it selfe can make a body: the best member wants the concur­rence of the rest, even skin and haire, to make a com­plete body. In this the meanest member bears a part, and the best does no more.

31. The truth is, I may say to you, as St. Paul here­tofore to the Corinthians; 1. Cor. 12.27. Vos estis corpus Christi, & membra ex parte, yee are the body of Christ, and members in part, or members of a member, of the Western Church, and ye are no more. All Churches throughout the world, and yours among the rest, are members of the body of Christ; of that body, which is the Church Ca­tholick. And every one of these must doe their parts, that belong unto them, that the body continue one, and that there be no schisme therein. For though St. Paul be pleased to call the Corinthians the body of Christ, yet as St. Chrysostome observes, Chrysost. in 1 Cor. 12. that Church alone was not the whole body; but the Catholick dispersed through the whole world. He saith therefore IN PART, or FOR PART; that so they may understand themselves to be but pars quaedam, some part of that body, which is made up of all Churches. That so we may endevour not onely to have peace among our selves, but with the whole Church throughout the earth; since we are all members of this Catholick body. God give all of us grace to learn this lesson; and to remember, that the foot is no lesse a part, then the eye: and that neither of these alone, nor yet both in con­junction can make a body, but as they are conjoyned with the rest of the members. Content your selves then, ye are but membra de membro, members in part, members of a member: ye must be knit to the other parts, before ye can grow up into a body. Indeed had there been no other but your selves, the Church had been utterly extinct, when time was, not so much as a sound member left.

32. Now since you presse so for the last 1100 yeers, give me leave to tell you, in what state Rome was, for a great part of that time, you call for. Stapleton. Relect. cont. 1. q. 5. A. 3. From 800 yeers after Christ she hath been foulely stained with all sins al­most imaginable. Schisme was raised there, and main­tained with bribery, and bloud enough, if Platina and Onuphrius speak right. Stella in Luc. 22.31. Stella and Almain. l. 3. D. 24. q. 1. Almain charge her with heresie. And Lira professeth, that Lira in Mat. 16. many of the chief therein, and the Popes themselves did apostatize from the faith. Five he names, 1. Zepherinus a Montanist: 2. Marcellinus an Idolater: 3. Liberius an Arian: 4. Vigi­lius an Eutychian: and 5. Honorius a Monothelite. Genebrard. Chron. l. 4. An. 991. Genebrard tells us, of about 50 Popes, that did so far de­generate from the virtue of their predecessors, that they were Apostatici potius, quam Apostolici, Apostaticall rather then Apostolicall. And yet this must be the onely Catho­lick Church.

33. Aven. Annal. Boior. l. 5. p. 447. Aventinus complaines, that for 450 yeers, the Popes of Rome did so trample all things under their feet, ut inferos superos in servitutem redegerint, that they brought heaven and hell to their beck, and made these doe, what they pleased. And P. de Aliaco de Reform. Rom. Eccles. tit. de Reform. Reli. Petrus de Aliaco a Cardinal, that was present in the Councel of Constance, professeth, that in those dayes the Church was come to that passe, ut non sit digna regi nisi a reprobis, that it was worthy to be go­verned by none but reprobates. This he speaks of that Church, you magnifie so much. Baro. Annal. Ann. Christi 908. n. 5. & Ann. 93 1. n. 1. Baronius confesseth, that there was a time, when Marozia and her daughter (a couple of lewd strumpets) disposed of the Popedome for many yeers; so that none possessed that Chaire but Boyes, Fooles, and Knaves: complaining that in those dayes, Christ lay asleep in the head of the ship. Where was then the holy Catholick Church? How think you? was it then at Rome?

34. Alphons. de Cast. c. Haeres. l. 1. c. 4. Alphonsus de Castro testifies, that divers Romane Popes were so illiterate, that they were wholly unac­quainted with Grammar. Alvar. Pel. de Planct. Eccle. l. 2. Ar. 5. Alvarez Pelagius gives us this account for his time; Hodie in Ecclesia deficit spiritus [Page 28]prophetiae, that the spirit of Prophesie did so faile, the Church, that those words were fulfilled, 3. Reg. 22. I will goe forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his Prophets. And yet Baronius professeth, that Plane appa­ret ex arbitrio dependisse Ro­mani Pontifi­cis, fidei decreta sancire, & san­cita mutare. Baron. An. 373 n. 2 [...]. it is plainly evident, that it depended upon the Popes pleasure, to enact Decrees of faith, and to reverse those, that were enacted. Was not here a Church well governed there while? Quomodo possunt integri­tati & conti­nentiae praeesse, si ex ipsis inci­piant corrupte­lae, & vitiorum magisteria pro­ced re? Cypr. l. 1. ep. 11. Was it possi­ble, such Bishops should reforme abroad, what they practised, and countenanced at home? In those drowsie, illiterate, and Apostaticall times, John 22. broached his damnable heresies. And in those times, in all probability, were those strange doctrines hatched, and many of those abuses induced, we now protest against. Somewhere then the Church was visible, when invisible at Rome. And occasion is given us to presume, that in this very Island it was visible; since Erasmus professeth, that in all his travels he found learned Bishops in England onely. And for many yeers, we know, the Greek Church had small cor­respondence or communion with the Latines; and yet a visible Church for all this. Neither can I doubt, but in other countries, even in Italy, there were some lear­ned Bishops, that knew the Canons of the Church, and full well understood, that Conc. Ephes. can. 1. heresie discharges not onely the Bishop from his Metropolitan, but Ib. can. 3. the Clark from subjection to his Bishop. The Church of Rome then must pardon us, if we withdrew our selves from her Bishops, when they fell into Apostasie, or heresie. And all good men will acquit us, for reforming abuses at home, accor­ding to our duty. We have good warrant for what we doe, even the authority of the whole Church represen­tative.

Sir, I have done. If you be offended, that I have stirred too much in these loathsome puddles, consider, I beseech you, that you set me upon this unpleasing [...]ask. What I have done, was at your desire, and ac­cording [Page 29]to your directions Christ knows, I have no private, or by end, in these my writings; it is your satisfaction and salvation, which I desire, and endeavour. God of his mercy give a blessing to these my labours, and to you an humble and discerning spirit, that you may see the truth, and embrace it: So prayes

I. YOur papers I received some moneths since, and for your great pains therein I humbly thank you. The effect of them is this, (viz.) a Resolution that there can be no Church shewed through the whole world for many hundred years before Luther, but the Church of Rome, and those in her communion; for if there could, I presume your learning is such you would have known it, and your charity such that being desired you would have shewed it me.

II. My originall doubt was, that sith the Ca­tholick Church must be alway visible, and that I could not by my best enquiry finde, that a succes­sion of men professing the doctrine of the Church of England, had been alway visible, that that Church was not the, nor any part of the Catholick Church. To this doubt at our conference you endevoured my satisfaction, by attempting to prove, that though the Church of England had not been alway visible, (at [Page 31]least not seen) yet seeing she is but a member of the Catholick Church, of which the Church of Rome is another; it was sufficient that the Catholick Church had been alway visible in the Church of Rome, and other particular Churches, though not in the Church of England.

III. That discourse then did give me no satis­faction, because although you said that the Church of Rome was a member of the Catholick; yet the 19^th. Article of your Church sayes, That the visible Church of Christ is a Congregation of faithfull men, in the which the pure Word of God is preached, and the Sacraments be duly administred, according to Christs ordinance in all those things that of ne­cessity are requisite to the same: And in divers other your Articles your Church condemnes the Church of Rome for not preaching the pure Word of God: As in the 22^th. concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Wor­shipping of Images and Reliques, and Invocation of Saints: And in the 24^th. concerning the Publick prayers in the Church, and the ministring of the Sa­craments in a tongue not understood of the people: In the 31^th. concerning the Sacrifice of the Masse for quick and dead, which that your Article calls blasphe­mous fables, and dangerous deceits.

IV. And for not duly administring the Sacra­ments: In the 30^th. Article you say, The Cup of the Lord is not to be denied to Lay-people: For both the parts of the Lords Sacraments by Christs ordinance and commandement, ought to be admini­stred to all Christian men alike. So then by the Ar­ticles of your Church, the Church of Rome doth nei­ther [Page 32]preach the pure Word of God, nor duly admini­ster the Sacraments, and that in those things that are of necessity requisite for the same, as appeares by your separation; for your beloved fo. 195. or 7. against F [...]sher. Archbish. Lawd says it is not lawfull to make a separation for points not necessary: And if you say you did not make the separation, but the Church of Rome, then Luther, Tin­dall, &c. did not goe out of the Church of Rome, but the Church of Rome out of them.

V. Therefore I had reason still, as in my Letter, to demand a Church distinct from the Church of Rome, and those in her communion, of which no man that reads your answer, can thereby I think receive sa­tisfaction: For the whole drift and scope of your papers is either to prove; First, that the Church of Rome and those in her communion, is not the Catho­lick Church; or else Secondly, that the Church of Rome, and those in communion with her, and the Church of England are but one, that is, severall mem­bers of one Church.

VI. For the first, that the Church of Rome and those in communion with her, was not the Catho­lick Church for that time I required; you shew no proof that I doe finde, but that some of the Popes have been either Hereticks, or Schismaticks; which if ad­mitted (though it is not) to be so in some of them for that time, yet it doth not make that whole Church to be Hereticall or Schismaticall: For I beleeve you will yeeld that the King of England, or Archbishop of Canterbury, may be an Heretick or Schismatick, and yet the Church of England be still part of the Catholick Church. But if it were granted [Page 33]that the Popes of Rome being Schismaticks or Here­ticks, should annihilate that Church, yet that could give me no satisfaction, who required not, where is not the Catholick Church, but where it is, that I might communicate with it.

2. For the second, that the Church of Rome and those in her communion, and the Church of Eng­land, are but severall members of the One Catholick Church: That I conceive cannot be: 1. For the reasons inferred from the Articles of your Church, as above. 2. For that the Articles of Faith of both Churches are directly contradictory, as appears by many your negative Articles: And Mr. Hooker sayes li. 3. fo. 84. That the Children of the visible Church are signed with this marke, One Lord, ONE FAITH, One Baptisme. 3. Your self Sect. 24. charges the Church of Rome with errors in matters of Faith, no lesse then in 4. points, (viz.) Transubstan­tiation, Communion in one kind, Invocation of Saints, and Adoration of Images, and how you do distinguish between errors in matter of Faith, pertinaciously (as you will say) held, and Heresie, I would willingly hear, and if guilty of Heresie, then by your sayings out of St. August. Haeresis enim Sponsa Christi non est: And Haeretici non pertinent ad Ecclesiam Catholicam; she is no part of the Catholick Church. And in Sect. 11. you charge the Church of Rome, That she hath most sacrile­giously robbed the Laity of Christs blood. 4. Christs my­sticall body is but one, and although that body is made up of many members, yet all those members must cō ­municate one w^th another, for if a member be separated but by schism, it is like an arm cut off from the body, [Page 34]or a branch from the vine (your owne similies) which makes that arm or branch no part of the body or vine.

VIII. And that the Church of Rome and England are separated by schisme, I think none will deny, for they doe abhorre mutuall communion in divine wor­ship, Sacraments, Prayers, and holy Rites; and no Protestant will frequent Catholick service, especially in the holy Sacrifice of Masse. Moreover, Catholicks excommunicate Protestants every year, and Prote­stants did frequently Catholicks in England. And by publick Statutes and Laws of the Land, any one who should reconcile one of the Church of England, to the Church of Rome, is guilty of death; but a Priest that shall celebrate Masse is made guilty of high Treason: How therefore can One Church, Christs mysticall body, grow up together of such different members? And your self say Sect. 19. that since the Reformation you have not communicated with the Church of Rome.

IX. The Church of Rome and England being thus separated, both in Faith and Communion, and so not one: And the Church of Rome and those in communi­on with her, by your saying not being the Catholick Church: my desire (to be shewed the Catholick Church, or the Church of England distinct from the Church of Rome and those in her communion, for the last 1100 years, or for so long as you please to say the Church of Rome hath so grievously erred, that you dare not communicate with her) is not, nor by your Papers can be satisfied.

Thus beseeching Almighty God to look favourably into the souls decei­ved by devillish deceits, that all hereticall impieties removed, the hearts of them that erre may relent, and returne to the unity of his truth: I humbly take leave and rest.

I. I Have heretofore manifested, that § 2. there were Chur­ches in Judea, in Galilee and Samaria, before ever there was a Church at Rome. 2^ly. That Ib. there was a Catho­lick Church, when the Apo­stles Creed was compiled and beleeved; and yet no Church at Rome. 3^ly. After Rome be­came a Church, she ceased to be Orthodoxe; in so much, that § 23. in the time of St. Hilary of Poicteurs there was at Rome no Church, no Communion of Saints. She, and those in communion with her, were Hereticall, and com­plyed with Arius. And yet in France, at that very instant, there was a Catholick, an Orthodox Church; as also § 29. at Alexandria, and in Sardinia. 4^ly. § 18.27.29. No Church at Rome under Zepherinus a Montanist, Marcellinus an Idolater, Liberius an Arian, Vigilius an Eutychian, and under John the 22. that Monster of Hereticks. And yet in those dayes [Page 36]the Church was in Asia, Alexandria, Sardinia, Cappadocia, France, and other places. And all these, I hope, before Lu­ther, and after Rome had been Catholick. And yet the effect of all this is, a resolution in you, that n. 1. there can be no Church shewed through the whole world for many hun­dred yeers before Luther, but the Church of Rome, and those in her communion. For some hundred yeers then, it seems, there may; and if for some, perchance for more.

2. All this is to imply, as if no Church without Rome; as if all these were no Churches, because they did not communicate with Rome in her damnable heresies. If no Church but Rome, and those in her communion, then was there no Church at all for many hundred yeers, since Rome was no Church, while Arian, or Eutychian, or worse. From whence then borrow you these grounds, and take up this resolution? Because Rome sometimes embraced Monta­nism, sometimes Eutychianism, Arianism, Apostatism, therefore no Church but Rome. Or as if Asia, Alexandria, Sardinia, France, and Cappadocia were no part of the world. For in those places there were Catholick Churches, when none at Rome. Or else that Church, because the Romane, was Catholick, though never so hereticall. Thus the Faith shall be tryed by Rome, and not Rome by the Faith. Com­municate with Rome, and all's well.

3. Next therefore you scoffingly adde; Ib. for if there could, I presume, your learning is such, you would have known it; and your charity such, that being desired, you would have shewed it me. Sir, my learning is such, I blesse God, that I doe know it; and my charity such, that, upon your de­sire, I have shewed it you. But your eyes and resolution are such, that you will not see it. Thus with Senec. ep. 51. Harpaste, Seneca's wives fool, the house is dark, when you are blind, not casually, but wilfully.

4. In your former Letter your desire was, that I would shew you the Catholick Church distinct from the Church of Rome, and those in communion with her. This I did in my former Answer, plainly and fully, § 1.22, 23, 29. That in [Page 37]this you might receive satisfaction, I grant, that The Ca­tholick Church was alwayes visible from the Apostles times to this present day; even then, when there was no Church at Rome, § 5. &c. Next, I have therein proved, that § 10. The Church of Rome, and those in communion with her, are not, cannot be, the Catholick Church. A member indeed of the Catholick Church sometimes she was, and some­times she was not. When Orthodox, she was a member of the Catholick; but while Hereticall or Schismatical, she was no Church, much lesse the one Catholick. That the Romane Church hath been dangerously Hereticall, is manifested § 16, 17, 18, 23. That she hath been misera­bly Schismaticall, is acknowledged by your own men, § 3. Thus that Church hath grievously erred, and in more then one fundamentall. And yet the Catholick hath been alwayes visible, though oft-times invisible at Rome; un­lesse errors and heresies prove Catholick, because professed at Rome.

5. All this your Tutors reply not to, nor hardly take notice of; but have directed you to fall from your for­mer desires upon new questions; tempting me, as the Pha­risees did our Saviour; but resolving to receive no an­swer. Thus you put me to more trouble, not with a mind to be satisfied, but meerly to cavill; and to slide over those arguments and testimonies, which they are not able to answer, or disprove. Is not this to speak nothing, lest you should seem to be silent? Are these things, which I have delivered, true or false? If true; A qu [...]cun (que) verum dicitur, illo inspirante dicitur, qui & ipse veritas est. Aug. ep. 28. let truth prevaile. If false, disprove them; if im­pertinent, manifest it. Otherwise, if you thus seek evasions, you will enforce me to acquaint the world with your shifts and shufflings, by publishing these papers; that every eye may discern, what is the weaknesse of your cause, and what your obstinacy.

6. Your intent being to decline, what you cannot an­swer, you divert me from the former businesse thus; n. 2. My originall doubt was (say you) that sith the Catholick Church must be alway visible, and that I could not by my best inquiry [Page 38]finde, that a succession of men, professing the doctrine of the Church of England, had been alway visible, that that Church was not the, nor any part of the Catholick Church. What have I to doe with your originall doubt? Your Letter, and the expression of your desire I looked upon; I endeavou­red to satisfie your request; and, I presume, a satisfactory answer was given to your demands, that so I might win a soul, not so much to our Church, as to the Commu­nion of Saints; and to lead you out of error into the way of truth. That the Catholick Church is, hath been, and must be alway visible, is agreed on both hands. But by your best enquiry you could not finde, that a succession of men, professing the doctrine of the Church of England, had been al­way visible. No more could the Pharisees see the Prophe­sies, that concerned our Saviour, though never so visi­ble. Alas, poore Gentleman, little Learning are you troubled with; you are not able to search the Scrip­tures, Councels, and Fathers, as you ought: and your enquiry hath been of such, as are either ignorant, or wil­fully blinde, and bent to misguide you.

7. The doctrine of the Church of England is cleare in our Book of Common-prayer: that is the rule for the Laity; and such as the true Catholick Church hath alwayes im­braced, and continued. All therein is positive. The Book of Articles is a rule for the Clergy, to preserve them from error; and much therein is negative. He, that means sincerely to instruct you so in the right way, that you may be a guide to others, must give you di­rections to avoyd the by-paths. The positive doctrine of this Church was ever professed, and is visible in all Catholick writers. But you insist upon no particulars, and guile lurks under generalls. But, I beseech you, before you turned over to the Church of Rome, why did not you make the like enquiry, to finde out a succession of men professing the doctrine of the Church of Rome, in those particulars, wherein we dissent from them of that Com­munion? If thus you had done, you might easily have discerned, that that Church is not the, nor any part of the [Page 39]Catholick Church, if wee goe by your line. For the most skilfull of your party are not able to shew such a succession of men, in the first 700 years of Chri­stianity.

8. But you are pleased to adde; that n. 2. to this doubt, at our conference, I endeavoured your satisfaction, by attempting to prove, that though the Church of England had not been al­way visible, (at least not seen) yet seeing she is but a member of the Catholick Church, of which the Church of Rome is ano­ther, it was sufficient that the Catholick Church had been alway visible in the Church of Rome, and other particular Churches, though not in the Church of England. Good God, what foreheads have men! Is this, could this possibly be my answer? Who alwayes justifie, that this Church hath been visible since the first or second Conversion; though not alwayes under Reformation. And for Rome, I have demonstrated, that the Catholick Church was not alway visible in that City, or Diocese, § 22, 23, 29. As also what kind of Church yee had for 450 yeers toge­ther, § 33. when hardly the form either of Religion or a Church was there to be seen. Yet visible it was here, when invisible at Rome. For you can never shew, that this Church was overrun with Montanism, Arianism, or Eutychianism. Yea, this was a learned and pious Church, when yours was miserably possest with ignorance and impiety. Look upon your owne Mr. Pits his Cata­logue of our Writers, and this will manifestly ap­peare.

9. However then n. 3. that discourse, which I sent unto you, gave you no satisfaction, yet it abundantly clears the questions proposed in your Letter. Neither can I pos­sibly expect to withdraw you from that faction, who are resolved to receive no satisfaction, unlesse we grant, that the Church of Rome, and those in communion with her, are the onely Catholick Church. And yet I never reade in Fathers or Councels, that to communicate with Rome is either a sure, or any token of a good Catholick. St. Au­stine assures us, that Aug. quaest. Evangel. secund. Mat. c. 12. they are good Catholicks, qui & fidem [Page 40]integram sequuntur, & bonos mores; who hold the undefiled Faith full and whole, and observe good manners: and those, that endevour not to doe this, are much to blame. While then thus we doe, we are good Catholicks. But that Faith, which we have received from the Apostles, and Councels, and Fathers, we keep whole, and undefiled, without alte­ration, addition, or diminution. While they are right, we are so. If they be out of the way, we are content to erre with them. Catholicks we are, true, right Catho­licks, by Lirinensis rule. Vincent. Li­rin. c. 25. Gods truth, the Church, the body of Christ we love. We prefer no mans, no Churches authority, no affection, no wit, no eloquence, no philosophie, nothing whatsoe­ver before Divine Religion, and the Catholick Faith. These things we set light by, and being fixed, firme in faith, we have determined, by Gods grace, to hold and beleeve that, and that onely, which we know to have been held by the Catholick Church universally of old, from the beginning of Christianity. And whatever new, or unheard of doctrine we shall perceive to have been induced by any particular man, or Church, besides, or against all the holy men of God, this we understand to proceed from Tem­ptation, not from Religion.

10. Thus we are Catholicks, and our Church will prove so too. We beleeve the holy Catholick Church, we professe it is but one. Cypr. l. 4. ep. 2. A Christo una, (as St. Cyprian speaks) but one of Christs making, though divided through all Nations into many members; per totum mundum in multa membra divisa. Item Episco­patus unus Epi­scoporum multo­rum concordi numerositare diffusus. Ib. So the Episcopacy is but one, under that great 1. S. Pet. 2.25. Bishop of our soules, but it is diffused by the numerous consent of many Bishops. One Church, and one Bisho [...]rick; and yet many Bishopricks, which are called Churches: and Concil. Nic. Diatyp. 2. every Bishop is head, as it were, of that Communion or Church, which is committed to his charge. Tertull. de Praescrip. c. 20. These many Churches, small or great, una est illa ab Apostolis prima, ex qua omnes; are that one first Apostolicall Church, of whom come all. Sic omnes primae, & om­nes Apostolicae, dum omnes u­nam probant u­nitatem. Ib. Thus they are all prime, all Apostolick, while they all ap­prove one unity. Ib. c. 32. This unity is by Tertullian placed in Faith, and Episcopall succession. Hitherto then we are right; for those Churches, that have this faith, and this successive [Page 41]government, Ib. non minus Apostolicae deputantur pro consan­guinitate doctrinae, are equally Apostolick with those very Chur­ches, which were planted by the Apostles. And in the Councel of Ephesus, the appeal is not to the Bishop or Church of Rome, for tryall of doctrine, but to the Vincent. Li­rin. c. 42. consent of the most famous Catholick Bishops, that were before them. If Rome be judge, the work is short; we shall quickly have one Religion setled, good or bad. But the old rule is this, Ib. c. 3. Quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus, that which hath been beleived in all places, at all times, by all the Fathers, that is truly Catholick; and nothing else, for ought I know.

11. This fully manifests, that this Nationall Church is as much Catholick and Apostolick, as can be desired. And yet I cannot expect, that this should work upon you, who are obstinately prepossessed against all satisfaction. I remember, A.C. was not ashamed to publish in print, A.C. p. 54. that the Lady, whom the two Bishops conferred with, did not aske the Question, as if she meant to be satisfied with hearing, what either of them said. And was it not, is it not so with you? Simon Magus will be the old man, say St. Peter, what he may. And 2. Tim. 3.8. as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so will your corrupt faction resist the truth, come what can.

12. But you have reason for what you say; and this it is; n. 3. Because, although I said, the Church of Rome was a member of the Catholick; yet the 19. Article of our Church sayes, that the visible Church of Christ is a Congregation of faith­full men, in the which the pure Word of God is preached, and the Sacraments be duly administred, according to Christs Ordi­nance, in all those things, that of necessity are requisite to the same. What is here to displease you? Is not all true? Refute it, if you can: deny it, if you have the face. Ib. But in divers other Articles our Church condemnes the Church of Rome, for not preaching the pure Word of God. And that's it, that offends you. Sir, we undertake not to judge your Church, but her doctrine; we condemne her errors, and yet acknowledge her to be a Church. [Page 42] Apoc. 2.13. God blames the Church of Pergamos, for enduring the seat of Satan within her Diocese; as also Ib. v. 15. for hol­ding that odious doctrine of the Nicolaitans: and yet grants her to be a Church, such a one, as it was. St. Paul calls the Corinthians 1 Cor. 1.2. a Church, but Ib. v. 11. &c. 3. he blames their schismes, Ib. c. 5. their carnality, Ib. c. 11. their disorders in the Church, Ib v. 20, &c. their prophaning of the Lords Supper, and Ib. c. 15.12. charges them with the heresie of the Sadduces. Your errors were crept in among us; and shall not we dare to call them errors, and to teach our Country-men to avoyd them? Foure of these that B. Martyr hath charged you with, and proves them to be blasphemous fa­bles, and dangerous deceits; as I acquainted you, § 24. You read, and turn over, and take no notice of what you read. This 'tis to be led by other mens eyes, and to see no further, then your new Masters will give you leave.

13. Justly we taxe you, Art. 30. for maiming the blessed Eucharist, and for denying the Cup, or Blood of the Lord to Lay men. As if our Saviour had not shed it for them, as much as for us; and had not given it to them, as well as to us. What is the meaning then of these words, St. Mat. 26.27. Drink ye all of this? or did not the Church of Christ under­stand, what they did, when they gave it to Priest and People? And how can I communicate with them, that will not suffer me to communicate with Christ, accor­ding to his own Ordinance? who deny me that, which Christ hath commanded me to take? In denying me the Cup, ye admit me by halves; in truth ye forbid me the Lords Table, I withdraw not my selfe. I have proved § 11. that in the judgement of the Catholick Church, this Sacrament is to be administred to the Laity in both kinds. I shall adde therefore with you, that n. 4. the Church of Rome doth neither preach the pure Word of God, nor duly administer the Sacraments, in those things, that are of necessity requisite for the same. This appears by our departure, or, as you name it, our separation, not from you, but from your errors. As you are a Church, we communicate with [Page 43]you; wherein ye are erronious, we depart from you. And in this we relie not upon our owne judgement, but In ipsa vetu­state, omnium, vel certè penè omnium Sacer­dotum pari [...]er & Magistrorum de­finitiones sen­tentias (que) secta­mur. Vincent. Lirin. c. 3. submit to the generall resolution of the ancient Fathers. The Jews at Gods command Lev. 13.46. separated the leprous from the sound, the clean from the unclean: and so doe we. Though Num. 12.14 Miriam were Moses owne Sister, yet did he withdraw himselfe and the whole Congregation from her, while leprous. But when she was healed of her foule disease, both he and the rest communicated with her. Cast off your leprous errors, and we are for your com­munion.

14. And whereas you adde, that n. 4. Archbishop Lawd says, it is not lawfull to make a separation for points not necessary; I freely subscribe to what he says. But withall he tells us, that Archbishop Lawd. §. 23. In the Church of Rome there are errors in Doctrine; and some of them such, as most manifestly endanger salvation: And I hope it is lawfull to separate from these; especially since your most able friends grant; that A. C. p. 56. Error in the doctrine of Faith is a just cause of Separation. But the same Bishop hath proved, that Archbishop Lawd. §. 33. n. 13. the Church of Rome hath erred in the doctrine of Faith, and dangerously too, in severall parti­culars. In those his words then, which you mention, he touches not us, but you; not us, who are separated passively; but your Church, which hath actually, actively separated and excommunicated us, for points not necessary, not to be endured in an Orthodoxe Church. Thus the cause, the fault, rests upon you, not up­on us.

15. Whereas then you tell us, n. 4. If we say, we did not make the Separation, but the Church of Rome, then Luther, Tindall, &c. did not goe out of the Church of Rome, but the Church of Rome out of them. What consequence is this? or what is this to us? What Tindall did, I know not, nei­ther does it concern us. What Luther did, I know, if the History of the Councel of Trent misguide me not. He hum­bly acquainted you with your errors and enormities, and desired redresse; and for this, ye most unchristianly thrust him forth of your communion; resolving rather to per­severe [Page 44]in error, then to amend, what was, and is amisse. For my part, I am resolved not to justifie any man, or act against the consent and rules of the ancient Church. But our Reformation was legall and canonicall; as is fully proved, § 20.21. We went not out of the Church to make a Reformation; but this we did in the Church, ac­cording to the laudable customes and canons of the anci­ent Church. And whoever condemnes us for this, he con­demnes himselfe of grosse ignorance, or malice. I may justly therefore say with Moses, Num. 16.7. Ye take too much upon you, ye sons of Levi, Ye men of Rome: ye transgresse the 92. & 165. canons of the Catholick Church, by med­ling beyond your bounds; as also by imposing upon us and other Countreys the Creed of Pius Quartus; which is contrary to the 177. Canon of the same Code.

16. Yet, as if no satisfaction were given to your de­mands, you proceed thus; n. 5. Therefore I had reason still, as in my Letter, to demand a Church distinct from the Church of Rome, and those in her communion; of which no man, that reads your answer, can thereby, I think, receive satisfaction. So you think, and some that have read it, think otherwise; and conceive that I have given full satisfaction to your demands; though you be resolved to turn your eares another way. For I have demonstrated, that when the Church of Rome, and those in her communion, were no members of the Catholick Church, there were at that very time severall Orthodoxe Churches in France, § 23. in Asia, Sardinia, Aegypt, and at Constantinople. All which at the same instant abhorred those heresies, which Rome professed; and would have no com­munion with her, or her heresies.

17. But, say you, Ib. the whole drift and scope of my Pa­pers is, either to prove, First, that the Church of Rome, and those in her communion, is not the Catholick Church. Secondly, that the Church of Rome, and those in communion with her, and the Church of England are but one, that is, severall members of one Church. To these in their order. For the first you speak truth; The Church of Rome, and those in her communion, is not the Catholick Church: this is both said and proved, § 12, [Page 45] &c. There my minde may be fully seen; and till that be disproved, I shall adde onely thus much; If the Church of Rome be not the Catholick, as I affirm, and yet the Catho­lick alwayes visible; then was there a Church distinct from the Romane Church, when Rome it selfe was not Ca­tholick. But there was a time, when Rome was not Catho­lick, not Orthodoxe; as is proved in my former Papers, § 18, 23, 27, 29.

18. Your reply to that, which I wrote before, is this; n. 6. For the first, That the Church of Rome, and those in commu­nion with her, was not the Catholick Church for that time I requi­red, you shew no proofe, that I doe finde, but that some of the Popes have been Hereticks or Schismaticks. Proofe then is shewed for this; and this I take to be proofe enough. For if the head be amisse, the whole body is out of tune. But the Bishop is Concil. Nic. Diatyp. 2. [...], the head, or as the head of that Church whereto he is prefer'd, over which he is placed. For Episcopus est in Ecclesia, & Ecclesia in Epi­scopo. Cypr. ep. 69. n. 31. as the Bishop is in the Church, so is the Church in the Bishop; and such as the Bishop is, such is the Church pre­sumed to be, till it renounce the Bishops errors: for (h) by the Bishop every Church communicates with other Churches. Hence it is, that at the ordination of a Bishop, the Metropolitan, or other Bishops of that Province acquaint the Primate therewith, and he the other Bishops within his Diocese, that so they might know, with and by whom they ought to communicate with other Churches. This is to be seen in St. Cyprian Cyp. l. 4. ep. 8. by the ordination of Cornelius; as also Euseb. hist. l. 7. c. 24. by the deposition of Paulus Samosatenus, by the ordination of Domnus into the See of Antioch. Ib. This intelligence was given, that so they might know to whom to write, and from whom to receive Letters of commu­nion.

19. That some, yea divers, of your Popes were Hereticks or Schismaticks, is throughly manifested out of your own men, § 18, 32, &c. And while Hereticks, Cod. Eccl. Ʋnivers. Can. 171. both them­selves, and all that side with them are secluded from Eccle­siasticall communion every way. Ib. All their Episcopall acts are made void; and Ib. Can. 172. those Bishops which adhere [Page 46]to them, are to be degraded from their Episcopacy. While therefore your Bishops were Hereticall, your Church was in an ill case: it could not possibly be Catholick, when all Episcopall acts were void. Is not this a main evidence against you? § 23. Some proofe there is also from St. Hilary; who professeth, that (in these Western parts) there was in his time no Christian communion but in France. This touches not onely the Bishop, but the whole Church of Rome, and all that adhered to him, or that.

20. For all this, as if it were doubtfull whether your Bishops were such, you adjoin, n. 6. Which if admitted (though it is not) to be so in some of them for that time, yet it doth not make that whole Church to be Hereticall or Schismaticall. Sir, though not admitted by you and your Masters, yet it is acknow­ledged by your own learned men, Lyra, Stella, Almain, Pla­tina, Onuphrius, and others, that some of your Bishops have been Hereticall, and some Schismaticall. And that not for a small time, as you seem to imply; but for many genera­tions, Aventin. Annal. Boior. l. 5. p. 447. for 450 yeers together, they were an infamie to their Order, as Aventinus testifies. God forbid, that I should passe sentence upon every particular person; but as a City is rebellious, when the Governour and the party prevalent withstand and affront the Prince, though many loyall subjects be in that City: so when the Bishop, and the prevailing part with him fall into heresie, that Church is adjudged Hereticall; and the denomination is taken from the more eminent and potent faction. Thus Socrat. l. 3. c. 29. Sozom. l. 4. c. 10. Rome it selfe was accounted Arian, while Bishop Felix com­municated with Arians, and ordained divers of that per­suasion Ministers of that Church. And yet, blessed be God, Theodoret. l. 2. c. 17. Rome at that time had many good people, that would not communicate with that Bishop.

21. But, in the words following, it is little lesse then confessed, that your Bishops were such as I have related. n. 6. For (as your next words speak) I beleeve, you will yeeld, that the King of England, or Archbishop of Canterbury, may be an Heretick, or Schismatick, and yet the Church of England be still part of the Church Catholick. Sir, we must distinguish be­tween [Page 47]a professed, and close Heretick. Those, that com­municate with a professed Heretick, are as he is. Hence is it, that Theodoret. l. 2. c. 17. So­zom. l. 4. c. 10. Felix Bishop of Rome, though inwardly Ortho­dox, was adjudged Hereticall for holding communion with the Arians. But with a close, a concealed Heretick, we may communicate, and be guiltlesse. Thus Act. 8.13. St. Philip communicated a while with Simon Magus, 1 Tim. 1.20. St. Paul with Hymeneus; and the rest of the Apostles with Nicolaus, and were blamelesse. But this is to perswade us, that your Church was Catholick, when your Bishop an Heretick. Thus the Popes infallibility is shrunk into heresie; it is fallen out of the chaire into the body of the Church, and the head shall receive health from the members, not the members from the head. Whereas anciently the Saints of God judged of the Church by the Bishop, not of the Bishop by the Church. Yea, Concil. Nic. Can. 5. the com­munion of the Church is estimated by communicating with the Bishop: and Cod. Eccles. Univers. can. 169 if any, whether Priest, or other, shall sever themselves from their Canonicall Bishop, and shall call a Congregation against him, or without his directions, they are censured to be Hereticks. The reason is, because Concil. Nic. Diatyp. 2. the Bishop is as it were the head, the life of his Church; and Concil. Nic. Can. 4. ought not to be ordained without the approbation of all the Bishops of that Province. And, I know, Liberius was ordained with this circumspection. Thus the Bishop elected is presumed to be of the same Religion with the rest of the Province; and the Province with the Metropoli­tan. Provided therefore it is, that Cod. Eccles. Univers. Can. 5.99.104. the Synod of that Province censure him, if he faile of their expectation, and depart from the Orthodoxe faith. And Ib. Can. 171, 172. if they do not, they are alike guilty, and all that adhere to him or them.

22. And for the parties instanced, the King of England, and Archbishop of Canterbury; I beleeve, that either, or both of them may be Hereticks, and this Church not so; since it is not their being, but our complying that makes us hereticall. But if all our Bishops be of the same Re­ligion with them, this Church is in an ill case. You, or [Page 48]I, may save our owne soules by not communicating with them, by dissenting from them, and by protesting against their unsound doctrine. But the Church is not to be judged of by you, or me; but by those that sit in Moses chaire, and are 2. Cor. 2.16. either the savour of life unto life, or the savour of death unto death. For St. Mat. 5.13. if the salt lose its sa­vour, wherewith shall it be salted? how mended? how reco­vered? Surely Ib. it is to be cast forth of the Church, out of the dignity it is in; and trampled upon as good for nothing. This was spoken to the Apostles, and with them to their successors. But when the King and Priest joyne together, it hath a strange influence upon the People for good or bad. 4. Reg. 16.10, &c. When King Ahaz and Ʋrijah the Priest professed Idolatry with open face, though many good men were resident among them, yet was that City and People accounted Hereticall. The power of the sword drawes some to sympathize, and too many to temporize. This is to be seen under the reign of Ista edicto­rum Imperatoris vi, quae in par­tes Occidentis miserat, confecta sunt. Socrat. l. 2. c. 29. Constantius, Julian, Valens, and others; where we see Religion much depend upon the Imperiall breath. But if Prince and Bishop concurre in Religion, they hardly meet with opposition. Look upon Antioch under Constantius the Emperour, and Leontius the Bishop; upon Constantinople under Valens, and Bishop Eu­doxius, and you shall see how suddenly they were overrun with heresie. Now, if it should fall out so unhappily with any or all the Cities of this Kingdome, the Diocesan or Nationall Church so infected, shall be deemed Hereticall. Under K. Edward VI. and Queen Mary, the Religion of this Church was judged of by the Governors; and thus shall we deal with Rome.

23. 6. But if it were granted (say you) that the Popes of Rome being Schismaticks or Hereticks, should annihilate that Church, yet that could give me no satisfaction, who required not, where is not the Catholick Church, but where it is, that I might communicate with it. And I say, if the Church of Rome bee annihilated by the Popes Heresie, or Apostasie, she shall be no Church, much lesse the Catholick. What then shall become of those Churches in her communion? surely they are all [Page 49]in an ill, in the same case with her. Grant but this, and the controversie is at an end. You have satisfaction, and I ease. But this will not serve your turn, who now re­quire not, where is not, but where is the Catholick Church. Well, if this will give you satisfaction, I shall tell you this too. The Catholick Church is, where ever the Catholick faith is preserved, and Apostolick government continued. Chrysost. in 1. Cor. 12. It hath been dispersed through the whole world; though not perchance in all parts of the habitable world at the same time. 1. Cor. 12.12. One it is, but many members. As the body is one, and hath many members, so is Christ, Chrysost. in loc. Pro Ecclesia posuit Christum; for the Church he sets down Christ; since the Church is his body, 1. Cor. 12.13. into which we are all bapti­zed. This body hath many members, these members are diffused from sea to sea, over the whole earth. So the Church is in Greece, Italy, Spain, France, England, Polonia, and Unus spiritus inesse omnibus infusus mem­bris, & una ani­ma meritò dici­tur, quia una in omnibus fides, & unus ab om­nibus colitur Deus, at (que) ex uno ore hymnos omnes concinunt Deo. Ruffin. hist. l. 9. c. 10. whereever the Catholick faith and Apostolicall govern­ment are continued. Thus we acknowledge Rome to be a Church, as St. Paul did Corinth, though an erroneous and superstitious Church. You see now, where you may com­municate with the Catholick: but it is left to your discretion, to choose, whether you will communicate with a reformed or a superstitious Church.

24. Now to the second, where I say, That the Church of Rome, and those in her communion, and the Church of England, are but severall members of the one Catholick Church: You reply thus, n. 7. That, I conceive, cannot be; 1. For the reasons infer­red from the Articles of your Church, as above. 2. For that the Articles of faith of both Churches are directly contradictory; as appears by many your negative Articles. I look not upon your conceits, but upon your reasons inferred from the Articles of our Church; which are already satisfied, § 12, 13. And whereas you adde, that the Articles of faith of both Churches are directly contradictory; I hope, it is not so. If it be, I am certaine, one of these is no Church: For then 1. Cor. 3.11. we build not both upon the same foundation; Colos. 2.19. we hold not the head, from which all the body receives nourishment, and is knit, com­pacted, together by joynts and bands. Quid itaque relicto capite mem­bris [Page 50]adhaeres? Why then do you leave the head, to cleave to the members, corrupt, putrified members? He, that builds upon the rock, builds upon sure grounds. Aug. de verb. Domini. Ser. 45. c. 7. Veni ergo mecum, si vis superpetram; & noli mihi velle esse pro petra: if then you befor the rock, go along with me; and seek not to be the rock to me. Behold, we build upon the rock; we beleeve in God the Fa­ther, in God the Son, and God the holy Ghost. I hope, ye doe so too. We also beleeve the Unity in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity. And do not ye so too? Hitherto we are both upon the Rock. We beleeve the We devoutly professe, and in all points fol­low the faith, which is con­tained in the three Creeds, that is to say, of the Apostles, of the Councel of Nice, and of Athanasius. The Protest. of Bishop Scory, &c. Book of Mart. p. 2119. three Creeds, and in the same sense the Primitive Church received them; which ye doe not; but give some of the Articles a new, another sense. Here then ye are beside the Rock.

25. Thus we agree, and yet not agree; we agree in the foundation, not in the superstruction; in the letter, not in the exposition. And we are sorry to see you forget your selves so much, as to infringe so memorable, so necessary a Canon as that of the Councel of Ephesus; which decrees, that Conc. Ephes. Can. 7. It is not lawfull for any one to bring, to write, or compose any other Creed, besides that which was agreed upon by those holy Fathers assembled in the holy Ghost at Nice. He that offends in this kind against this Canon, is deeply censured; If a Bishop, he is to be deprived of his Cure; if a Clergy-man, of his function; but if a Lay-man, he is to be turned out of the Churches communion. But ye have imposed a new, another Creed of Pius Quartus upon the Church; which whosoever will not subscribe to, he is, at least, no good Catholick w^th you.

26. Say not, that these are expositions; they are dan­gerous additions: and though I cannot say, ye have alte­red the letter, yet I dare be bold to say, ye have strangely alter'd the sense, Tertul. de Praescrip. c. 38. auferendo proprietates singulorum verbo­rum, & adjiciendo dispositiones non comparentium rerum, by taking away the proper sense of severall words, and by inser­ting imaginations of such things as have no footing in holy Writ. Whereas we, as we ought, take the rule of Faith in the li­terall sense; Quae nullas habet apad nos quaesliones, nisi quas haereses in­ferunt, & quae Haereticos faci­unt. Ib. c. 14. and that raiseth no controversies with us, but such as heresies bring in, and such as make Here­ticks. Your selves, your own Church ye may charge with [Page 51]contradictions, this Church ye cannot. This is the plea we stand upon, Ib. c. 21. Communicamus cum Ecclestis Apostolicis, quod nulla (vel in nullo) doctrina diversa: hoc est testimonium veri­tatis: we cannot but communicate with the Primitive, the Apostolick Churches, whose doctrine is in nothing diffe­rent from theirs. This is such a testimony of the truth, that it is above all exception. And resolved I am, with Gods blessing, to be no longer of this communion, then I shall be able to make this good.

27. And whereas n. 7. Mr. Hooker sayes, That the Children of the visible Church are signed with this mark, One Lord, ONE FAITH, one Baptisme; I presume you make no doubt of this. Neither can I think, but that you are resolved, whoever denies the Lord of life, or renounceth the Catho­lick faith, or is baptized into any other Baptism, then that one, which our Saviour instituted; or is a second time baptized, he is no childe of the visible Church: since that hath taught us to beleeve one Baptism for the remission of sins. He then that forsakes this faith, forsakes the Church.

28. Thirdly, you adde, that Ib. I my selfe charge the Church of Rome with errors in matters of faith, no lesse then in foure points, viz. Transubstantiation, Communion in one kinde, Invocation of Saints, and Adoration of images. As if I were the first, or the onely man, that charged you with these errors: whereas Art. 22, 28, 30. this is done by our whole Church; and the Inditement is made good by that learned Archbi­shop of B. memory. The Church saith, that these doctrines are Art. 22. fond things, grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God. The Archbishop hath charged it home, and you know not how to shift it off. It would well therefore become a Christian Church to redress these and your other errors; that we, and others, who pro­test against these unwarrantable doctrines, may communi­cate freely with you.

29. n. 7. You would therefore willingly hear, how I distinguish between errors in matters of faith, pertinaciously held, and heresie. What's this to the point in hand? This is but onely to tempt me into another discourse, nothing to our purpose. [Page 52]As there is great difference between error and pertinacy, so is there also between errors in faith, and errors in matters of faith. Errors in faith are such as are against the Creed: errors in matters of faith, I understand to be such, as con­cern the faith in points of lower moment, that deny not the letter of the text, but give, and impose for by-ends, some unwarrantable expositions, unknown to antiquity. Such is that, which was Cod. Eccles. Ʋniver. can. 177 brought in by Charisius, and such are yours, which the Church of England nominates. Though these with the former batter not the foundation, yet they endanger the out-works, and will in time make way to undermine some of the necessary forts.

30. 'Tis very true, that an error in faith pertinaciously main­tained, is no lesse then heresie: but we say not so of errors in matters of faith. Quid faciat Haereticum, regu­lari quâdam de­finitione comp e­hendi, sicut ego existimo, aut omnino non po­t [...]st, aut diffi­cillime potest. Aug. Praefat. ad li. de Haeres. St. Austin was very cautelous in defining an Heretick; and I shall be wary, how I determine what heresie separates from the Catholick Church. And yet your Masters cannot deny, but St. Cyprian (not St. Austin, as you mistake) resolves thus, Cypr. Pom­peio. ep. Haeresis Christi sponsa non est; Heresie is not the spouse of Christ. But every thing, that is called heresie by you, or error in doctrine with us, will not separate from the Catholick communion. St. Austin there­fore limits it thus, Aug. de Fide & Symb. c. 10. Haeretici de Deo falsa sentiendo, ipsam fidem violant. Quapropter non pertinent ad Ecclesiam Catholi­cam: every violation of the faith cuts not off from the Ca­tholick Church, but a false opinion of God does; beware of that; take heed how you think amisse of the blessed Tri­nity, or any person therein. And in this sense is that of Tertullian to be understood, Tertul. de Praescrip. c 37. Si Haeretici sunt, Christiani esse non possunt; where an heresie is against any person of the Trinity, there's no Christianity. That Great Athanasius therefore tells us that Athan. de Spiritu sancto. p. 202. 203. this beliefe in the Father, the Son, and the holy Ghost, Christ gave to be setled in the Church, as a foundation to the Church, the foundation of faith, and the faith of the Catholick Church. And Ib p. 204. whoever di­vides the Son from the Father, or reckons the holy Ghost among creatures, he neither hath the Father, nor the Son, sed impius est sine Deo, & infideli deterior, & quidvis potius quam Christianus; [Page 53]but he is an impious man without God, worse then an Infidel, and any thing rather then a Christian. And if no Christian, no member of the Church. Hilar. Pict. ad Constant. Aug. p. 273. Catholicus sum, nolo esse Haereti­cus; Christianus sum, non Arianus. Thus far I dare goe with these Fathers, but no further. But if, as you will have it, every error in matters of faith pertinaciously held, be an heresie, and separate from the Catholick Church, Rome hath been in an ill case for many yeers. For those foure errors mentio­ned, § 29. ye have held with pertinacy enough: and yet are they by the Archbishop strongly proved to be errors; though your stomachs be too high to retract them.

31. But you would fain have me doe, what our Church hath never done, that is, to charge your Church with heresie: for say you, n. 7. if the Church of Rome be guilty of heresie, she is no part of the Catholick Church. But I never said, she was guilty of heresie; and till I have just cause to say so, I shall forbear to say, that she is no part of the Ca­tholick Church. And I shall be as tender as my betters have been, to set down, Archbishop Lawd. §. 11. n. 1. what errors in doctrine may give just cause of separation in this bedy, or the parts of it, one from ano­ther. I have satisfied my selfe, that the Reformation of this Church was Canonicall, and is justifiable; and that she was and is a very member of the Catholick; in whose communion I have ever lived; wherein also, by Gods grace, I am resolved to die. And it were wisdome in you to see your Church justified from those foure errors, before you enter into further controversies, As for that, n. 7. which you produce out of the 11 Sect. there it is suffi­ciently proved, that your Church hath most sacrilegiously robbed the Laity of Christs blood. This is not denyed, I take it therefore for confessed; and hope, your Masters will see it mended.

32. Well, if we will not declare yours to be no Church, you will prove yours or ours to be no Church; and upon these grounds, Ib. 4^ly. say you, Christs mysticall body is but one; and although that body is made up of many members, yet all those members must communicate one with ano­ther: for if a member be separated but by schisme, it is like [Page 54]an arm cut off from the body, or a branch from the vine; which make that arm or branch no part of the body or vine. What though all this be granted, will this make one of the two, no Church? I beleeve not. That Christs mysticall body is but one, the Scripture speaks more then once, 1 Cor. 12.13. Eph. 1.23. Col. 1.18. That may not be denyed, or questioned. That this body is made up of many members, is liwise testified, Ro. 12.4, 5. 1. Cor. 12.12, &c. And we know, all those members must communicate one with another, and wherein: 1. Cor. 12.25, 26. in the same care one for another; in the same sufferings, and rejoycings one with another. We are not bound to communi­cate with you in the same ceremonies, gesture, superstition, or error; no more then the hand is bound to communicate with the foot in going, the heels with the ears in hearing, or either with the other in the gout, or any other disease. The difference between you & us, is this, we love the body, and hate the disease; but you love the body so, that ye love, and foster the disease; & hate those, that are not visited with the like contagion. We communicate with you in the ne­cessaries, in Faith, Hope, and Charity, as also in all things essentiall to a Church. We beleeve the Scriptures, and the three Creeds with you, though not alwayes in the same sense. Our hopes are the same with yours, though we something differ in the means: and our charity is mani­fested by our prayers; as heretofore I acquainted you, § 19. But your charity is so little, that rather then we shall be members of the Catholick, ye will be none your selves.

33. For n. 7. (say you) if a member be separated but by schisme, it is like an arm cut off from the body, or a branch from the vine; which make that arm or branch no part of the body or vine. Very right, it is so; not because it is distant from this or that member, or unlike either in fashion, or com­linesse, or office; but because it is cut off from the body, by which it receives life and strength from the head. A Church then must be separated from the mysticall body of Christ, before it can be in direct schisme; and this must be done by pride, or obstinacy in error. If ye shall excom­municate any man or Church causelesly, the fault is in you, [Page 55]not in them; though they be under Romes Jurisdiction. But ye have no such power over us; as is sufficiently proved, § 25, 26. Say not then, though your selves be the hand, or the eye, that 1. Cor. 12.15. because the foot is not the hand, nor Ib. v. 16. the eare, the eye, it is not therefore of the body. God knows, Ib. v. 14. the body is not one member, but many: and each of these receive life from the head, though not every one of these so suddenly, so immediately. Thus Ib. v. 13. by one spirit we are all baptized into one body, the mystical body of Christ. Ib. v. 27. We are therefore the body of Christ, or rather of the body, as Corinth was, Ib. membra de membro, members in part; not members of Rome, but members of the Western Church. And though not Romanists, yet are we both Christians and Catholicks. Say not, because we cannot see Transubstantiation and Purgatory, nor weild St. Peter's sword with you, that we are no members; we can hear the voice of the shepheard, and Quid relicto capite membris adhaeres? Chry­sost. in col. 2.19 we shall not forsake the shep­heard to be in league with the members.

34. Now we draw neer your issue, which follows thus; n. 8. And that the Church of Rome and England are separated by schisme, I think, none will deny. For they abhor mutuall com­munion in divine Worship, Sacraments, and holy Rites: and no Protestant will frequent Catholick service, especially in the holy Sacrifice of Masse. A separation there is indeed between you and us; and, if you will, a schisme, the more the pity. But Archbishop Lawd § 21. n. 1. the cause of the schisme is yours; for ye thrust us from you, because we called for Truth, and redresse of abuses. And not onely so, but, according to your owne words, n. 8. Ye excommunicate us every yeer, all Protestants in gene­rall; a course unheard of, unknown with us. For though some one convicted member of yours be excom­municated, we use not to excommunicate a whole mul­titude or Nation. We condemne doctrines, not persons; or if persons, for the doctrines sake. Care therefore is taken, that Can. our Parsons and Curates repair to Recu­sants houses, to confer with them, and to convince their errors, that so they may be won to Church. Neither doe we abhor mutuall communion with you in divine worship, but [Page 56]in worshipping or adoration of Images and Reliques. We cannot endure, that Latria, ea dicitur servitus, quae pertinet ad colendum Deum. Aug. de civ. D. l. to. c. 1. divine worship be given to any other then to the blessed Trinity.

35. We abhorre not your Sacraments, but your halfe Communion; nor any holy Rites ye have. Of Ceremo­nies, before the Book of Com­mon-prayer. The excessive multitude of ceremonies, within our selves, we have pared off. Ib. And in these our doings we condemn no other Nation, much lesse abhorre them, nor prescribe any thing but to our owne people onely: observe that. Yet Ib. such ceremonies we have retained, which doe serve to a decent order, and godly Discipline; and such as be apt to stir up the dull mind of man to the remembrance of his duty to God; as also Ib. to the redu­cing of the people to a most perfect and godly living, without error or superstition. And they, that know any thing, cannot deny, but Socrat. l. 5. c. 21. Sozom. l. 7. c. 19. many Rites and observations there were in the East, which were not received in the West. And in the West they were not alike in all places. Of these St. Ambrose speaks thus, Ambros. de Sacrament. l. 3. c. 1. In omnibus cupio sequi Ecclesiam Roma­nam. Sed tamen & nos homines sensum habemus. Ideo quod ALIBI RECTIUS SERVATUR, & nos recte custodimus. Desirous I am, saith he, to follow the Church of Rome in all things. And yet we are men of understanding. What therefore IS MORE RIGHTLY OBSER­VED IN OTHER PLACES, that doe we rightly keep. And is it not as lawfull for us to doe so? Per­fection is not at Rome; some observations may be more convenient, yea better in other places. And, I remember, St. Austin tells us, that Aug. ep. 118. c. 2. it was a rule of St. Ambrose, to observe the customes of that Diocese, wherein we reside; to have an eye upon the Bishop, and to doe, as he does. This St. Austin took to be counsel from heaven, what ever you think. I would to God, we were so humble, and so flexible, as to submit to this counsel.

36. And whereas you adde, that no Protestant will frequent Catholick service; I must tell you, that we of this Church frequent no other. And our Book of Divine service is Ca­tholick in all things, but in this, that it is not Romane. Were it in the Latine tongue, with a prayer for the Pope [Page 57]by name, and your half Communion, then it would be Catholick enough; though the people went home never the wiser, never the better. I challenge the most able of your faction, to shew me any one passage in our Com­mon prayer Book, that is not Catholick. I know, you can­not: I know, it is as agreeable, as possibly may be, to the Catholick faith. I speak not this at hap-hazard, or out of blind affection; but as St. Austin, so I, Aug. de Ver­bis Dom. Ser. 63. c. 2. Fides nostra, id est, fides vera, fides recta, fides Catholica, non opinione prae­sumptionis, sed testimonio lectionis collecta; Our faith, that is, the true, the right, the Catholick faith, which is not collected out of an opinion of presumption, but testified unto us by our serious reading the Scriptures, Councels, and Fathers; Nec haereti­câ temeritate in­certa, sed Aposto­licâ veritate fundata, hoc in­sinuat, hoc novi­mus, hoc credi­mus. Ib. nei­ther wavering through hereticall rashnesse, but founded upon Apostolicall truth, insinuates this unto us; thus we know it, thus we beleeve it. And for the Sacrifice of the Masse, as ye call it, we acknowledge it to be a Commemorative Sacrifice. Let us have the Communion in both kindes, presse us not to beleeve Transubstantiation, or any of your late inventions, and I know no reason, but we may frequent that, which ye call the Sacrifice of the Masse. I shall not quarrel the word, when the main matter is agreed upon.

37. Heretofore, whatever you think, so little excep­tion was there to our Divine Service, Worship, Sacra­ments, Prayers, and holy Rites, that those two memo­rable Bishops Bo. of Mar. Bonner and Gardiner communicated with us in them; and so did most of the Romane Catholicks of this Nation, for ten yeers under Queen Elizabeth, till that terrible Bull of Pius Quintus came thundering out. Yea Bishop Gardiner subscribes, that the Common-prayer book is a devout, a godly, a Christian Book and Order, &c. Ib. p. 1357. But as it was with the Donatists, so is it much alike with you: Aug. de Verb. Dom. Ser. 49. c. 10. they in the height of pride trumpeted it out, Nos sanctificamus, nos justificamus, nos facimus justos; we are the men, that sanctifie; we are the men, that justifie; we make you just. Ecce, quo ascenderunt; Behold, to what an height they were grown. And are not ye ascended to a strange height, to say, Nos facimus Catholicos, Wee are they, [Page 58]that make men Catholicks. Side with us, and ye are Ca­tholicks; differ from us in the least point, and ye are He­reticks? St. Paul is of another minde; Ro. 14.3, 4. in meats, in matters of indifferency, in such things, that are not of necessity to be done, we are not to judge one ano­ther. Phil. 3.15, 16. If in these kinde of things, and such as tend to perfection of life, we be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto us: so that we walk by the same rule, whereto we have attained. That is Chrysost. in loc. so we preserve the same faith, and keep the same commandements. So St. Chry­sostome. These, these are the rule, we must be sure to walke by.

38. From Divine service you descend to the publick Sta­tutes and Laws of the Land, whereby it is enacted, n. 8. that any one, who should reconcile one of the Church of England, to the Church of Rome, is guilty of death. And reason good, since ye have so many traitrous principles against the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy, against the honor and safety of Princes. Indeed what is this reconciling to Rome, which by the Laws is condemned, but a withdrawing of the people from their obedience, to give that to the Pope, which is due to their Prince? This is plain by the Statute, whose words are these, 3. Jac. 4. That person, who shall put in practise to absolve, perswade, or withdraw any of his Majesties Subjects from their naturall OBEDIENCE TO HIS MAJESTY, or to reconcile them to the Pope or Sea of Rome, or to move them, or any of them, to PROMISE OBEDIENCE TO ANY PRETENDED AUTHORITY OF THE SEA OF ROME, That then every such person, their Procurers, &c. shall be adjudged Traitors: and being thereof lawfully convicted, shall have judgment, and suffer as in cases of High Treason. You see the Law, and the reason of this Law. If this will not satisfie, the same Statute sayes moreover, that Ib. It is found by daily ex­perience, that many his Majesties Subjects, that adhere in their hearts to the Popish Religion, by the infection drawn from thence, and by the wicked and devillish counsel of Jesuites, Seminaries, &c. are so far PERVERTED IN POINT OF [Page 59]LOYALTY and due allegiance, as they are ready to enter­tain and execute any treasonable conspiracies, and practises; as appears by the Gunpowder-treason. By this time you see the reason of this Act; and cannot deny it to be just.

39. But (if you speak truth) a Priest, that shall but cele­brate Masse, is made guilty of High Treason. So you say; but upon search I can find no such Statute. Indeed an Act there is, that 23. Eliz. 1. Every person that shall say or sing Masse, being thereof lawfully convicted, shall forfeit the summe of 200 Marks, and be committed to prison till he pay this summe. And Ib. Every person, that shall willingly hear Masse, shall forfeit the summe of 100 Marks, and suffer im­prisonment for a yeer. The like penall Laws have been heretofore set forth by the best Christian Emperours, Socrat. l. 1. c. 6 Sozom. l. 1. c. 19. by Constantine the Great against the Arians. But the Donatists were Schismaticall Sectaries; and Aug. ep. 48. against these he made also a Decree, that so many of those as refused to be united to the Church, should forfeit their personall estates. Many such Laws are to be seen in the African Code. And our Saviours command is, that St. Luc. 14.23. the people be compelled to come into his house. And this care hath been taken for the good of all sorts of Recu­sants, that so 1. Eliz. 2. & 23. Eliz. 1. they might be drawn to Church, to serve God with one mind, and one mouth; which every National Church is bound to doe. Care therefore is taken, that Cod. Eccles. Ʋnivers. can. 81 we pray with the people. But how doe they pray with the people, who pray in a tongue, the people understand not? Ib. Neither ought we, in times of peace, to com­municate with such, as meet in private houses, and fre­quent not the Church prayers. Ib. And they, that ab­horre one Church, are not to be received into another. Yee therefore, that will not communicate in prayers with your own Mother Church, ought not to be recei­ved by any member of the Catholick. And in doing so, in receiving such, as you are, Rome offends against the Laws of the Catholick Church.

40. These Canons are little observed, little thought of: all, that is studyed in these dayes, is to continue the breach, [Page 60]and to make it wider. Hence is this exclamation, n. 8. How therefore can one Church, Christs mysticall hody, grow up toge­ther of such different members? That Christs mysticall body consists, and growes up of different members, is clear, 1. Cor. 12.12, &c. and all these receive life and power from the same head; even those very members, that are distorted, or diseased. The sound hand therefore cannot say to the lame leg, or gouty foot, Thou art not of the same body: but according to the directions of the head, the sound hand provides and applies a plaister to the diseased member. Ob­servable it is, that between the Eastern & Western Churches were many differences, viz. 1. About the observation of Easter. 2. Rebaptization of Hereticks. 3. Procession of the holy Ghost. 4. The number of Sacraments. 5. The man­ner of Ordination. 6. The Canonicall Books of the Old Testament, and some other. And yet for all these, they grew up together comfortably, and continued in the same body. Seldome or never any, that offer'd to make a breach, or to censure other Churches for these or the like diffe­rent observations and expressions, but two or three Bishops of Rome. Such were the humility and charity of those glo­rious Saints. In those purer dayes Neminem ju­dicantes, aut a jure communio­nis aliquem, si diversum sense­vit, amoventes. Cypr. in concil. Carthag. one Bishop was not so forward to censure or excommunicate another Bishop, for being of a diverse persuasion. No, no, saith St. Cyprian, Ib. Neque quisquam nostrum Episcopum se esse Episcoporum constituit, aut tyrannico terrore ad obsequendi neces­sitatem collegas suos adegit, No man in those dayes took upon him to be Bishop of Bishops, or to enforce any by tyrannicall terror to subscribe his dictates. Then was it lawfull for every one to speak his minde freely, when reason, not power; weight, and not number, bore the sway.

41. But you object, that n. 8. I say Sect. 19. that since the Reformation we have not communicated with the Church of Rome. Very right, I doe so. But withall I tell you, that this is no fault of ours; since ye will not suffer us to commu­nicate with you, unlesse we communicate with your er­rors. Is not this to deal with us, as the Jews did with the poor man, that was born blinde? St. Jo. 9.34. while he was [Page 61]blinde, the Pharisees communicated with him; but when he had gained sight, they cast him out, they excommuni­cated him. But Ib. v. 35. our blessed Saviour took pity on him, and received him into his communion. Thus, while we were blinde, and saw not your errors, we were your dear friends: but when we discerned them, and com­plained of them, hell was good enough for us. Yet we doubt not, but 1. St. Jo. 1.3. we have communion with Christ, since we hold communion with the Apostles by their successors, not onely in function, but in faith and cha­rity. For we receive the two Testaments, with the three Creeds, in the same sense with the Primitive Church. We pray for the whole Church; for all Jews, Turks, Infidels, and Hereticks; yea for our enemies, persecutors, and slanderers. We anathematize not Churches, but errors; nor any per­sons, but such as are, or ought to be, members of this Church and Kingdome: we presse not beyond our line. If this be the right way to heaven, surely we are in the right, and ye in the wrong.

42. Well, n. 9. the Church of Rome and England being thus separated, both in faith and communion, and so not one: and the Church of Rome, and those in communion with her, by your saying not being the Catholick Church. For the separation we must thank you, for our faith we blesse Christ. What that is, the Book of Common-prayer manifests in plain terms: and I have shewed, that the Pope and his Conclave have incurred Canonicall censures, by imposing a new Creed upon us and others. That we communicate not with you, the fault is yours: and Catholicks we shall be able to prove our selves, when ye will not be found Orthodoxe. But such is that typhus Romanus, the infinite pride of Rome, that none shal be Catholicks, none in communion of the Church, nor in the way to heaven, that will not stoop to their lure, that will not erre with Pius Quartus, and the Councel of Trent. As if the Romanes were the onely, at least had been the first Christians; and that St. Peter's keyes were tyed to the Popes girdle, to let in, and to keep out whom he listed. Whereas we know, St. Jo. 20.22, 23. the keyes were given to [Page 62]all the Apostles alike, to St. John for Ephesus, as much as to St. Peter for Rome. Yea Hieron. St. Peter himself provided for Antioch before Rome; for he was first, Bishop of Anti­och. The same keyes to all the Apostles for all Nations alike; that so all might be admitted by the same keyes into the same 1. Tim. 3.15. house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth. And in this house by Gods grace we shall continue, while Col. 2.19. we hold the head, and from thence receive nourishment, by those joynts and bands, which Christ hath ordained. And, For the judg­ment of the whole contro­versie, we refer unto the most holy Scriptures, and the Catho­lick Church of Christ. The Protest. of Bish. Scory, &c. Book of Mart. p. 2120 were your party contented, to be ruled by antiquity, we might be one, as the house is one.

43. That the Church of Rome, and those in communion with her, are not (as you would fain have it) the Catholick Church, is fully manifested in my former answer, § 2, &c. 12, 22, 23, 29. And yet there was the Catholick Church at all times, since it was first constituted. Aug. de Gen. ad lit. imper­fect. c. 1. Mater enim Ecclesia, Catholica dicitur ex eo, quia universaliter perfecta est, & in nullo claudicat, & per totum orbem diffusa est: the Mo­ther Church is hence called Catholick, because she is universally perfect, and halts in nothing, and is diffused through the whole world. She is not Catholick, or sound, because she communi­cates with Rome; but Rome is Catholick, if she communi­cate with her, and so is every Church. We shall therefore communicate with this our Mother, that so we may conti­nue Catholick. We are sure, the Mother halts not, though some of the Daughters may. That Rome hath halted down­right in the prime Articles, is too notorious, as hath been shewed, § 18, 27, 32, &c. and then, I am sure, she was not Catholick. Vincent. Li­rin. c. 14. Nemini enim licet, praeter id, quod Ecclesia Catholica usquequa (que) evangelizat, accipere: for it is not law­full for her, or any other, to receive, or broach any other doctrine, then that, which the Catholick Church preaches every where; much lesse to enforce it as necessary to sal­vation. Where then ye leave the Church Catholick, it is our duty to leave you. Estnè aliquis tantae audaciae, qui praeter id, quod apud Ec­clesiam adnun­ciatum est, ad­nunciet, vel tan­tae levitatis, qui praeter id, quod ab Ecclesiâ ac­cipit, accipiat? Ib. This Church he speaks of, is not the Romane but the Catholick Church. As it is audaciousnesse in you, to induce, or impose any new Article, so were it levity in us to embrace it.

44. What we have, we have received from our good Mother the Catholick Church: and though by you, yet not from you; Christs legacies they are, not yours. If ye deliver us these legacies in base or counterfeit coin, we shall not accept of it. Gold ye received from the Testator, and not lead, we know it by his Will; give us that, which ye received, and not gilded stuffe in stead of gold. If ye tender to us, that, which is unwarrantable, we are resolved Gal. 1.8, 9. with the vessel of Election, to denounce to you or any other, an Anathema; we shall not, we must not endure novum dogma, any new Article. If new, it can never be right. 2 Tim. 3.15. The Scripture is able to make us wise unto salva­tion; that we set before us, and are resolved, by Gods grace, to accept of nothing, but what is deduced from thence, or proved thereby, according to the interpreta­tion of the ancient Fathers and Councels. While our Church does thus, in spight of malice she shall be Catho­lick. Dediscam benè, quod didi­cerunt non benè. Vincent. Lirin. c. 25. If we chance to learn any thing contrary to this, we are bound in Christianity to cast it by, though it come from Rome; and to Ib. betake our selves into the bosome of our Catholick Mother, as into the safest harbor. There we are sure to find the living waters, and tree of life.

45. Your desire is behind, but differing from the former. Before your desire was, to be shewn the Catholick Church distinct from the Church of Rome, and those in her communion, for the last 1100 years. To this satisfaction is given, § 29, 32, &c. But now n. 9. your desire is to be showed the Catholick Church, or the Church of England, distinct from the Church of Rome, and those in her communion, for the last 1100 years, or for so [...]ng, as I please to say, the Church of Rome hath so grievously erred, that we dare not communicate with her. This desire of yours (according to your own words) is not, nor by my Papers can he satisfied. Is it not enough to manifest, that your pre­sent errors are so grosse and grievous, that we dare not commu­nicate with the Church of Rome, but we must look back to former centuries? In my former Papers I have done it, but you will not see it. Other eyes, I presume, will discern [Page 64]this done, § 32, 33, 34. in my former answer. Of these you take little notice, because you are resolved with the self-conceited Pharisee, to be what you are. And with §. 11. that Lady I spake of, you ask not this, or any other question, as if you meant to be satisfied, with what is, or can be said. Surely we did not communicate with Rome in the time of Zepherinus, Marcellinus, Liberius, Vigilius, Ho­norius, and those Genebrard. Chron. l. 4. Ann. 991. 50 Apostaticall Popes, whom Gene­brard speaks of. And great reason for it, since in those dayes ye separated your selves from the Church Catholick to side with Hereticks, and worse, if worse may be. Then was this Church distinct from yours, because yours was divided from that Church, 1. Tim. 3.15 which is the pillar and ground of truth. If ye depart from the truth, we shall, and must depart from you. Hos. 4.15. Though Israel transgresse, yet must not Judah sin. We must not be naught for company; Exod. 23.2. neither may we follow a multitude to doe evill.

Your Letters are answered, and your desires, I hope, satisfied beyond your desire. Your conclusion I like so well it shall be mine. With you therefore I beseech Al­mighty God to look favourably into the souls deceived by devillish deceits, that all hereticall impieties removed, the hearts of them that erre, may relent, and return to the unity of his truth; and become one fold under one shepheard Jesus Christ, our Lord; to whom, with the Father and the holy Ghost, be all honor, and glory, world without end, Amen.