An answer to Mr. William Prynn's twelve questions concerning church government at the end whereof, are mentioned severall grosse absurdities, and dangerous consequences of highest nature, which do necessarily follow the tenets of Presbyteriall, or any other besides a perfect independent government : together with certaine qveries.

An answer to Mr. William Prynn's twelve questions concerning church government at the end whereof, are mentioned severall grosse absurdities, and dangerous consequences of highest nature, which do necessarily follow the tenets of Presbyteriall, or any other besides a perfect independent government : together with certaine qveries.

Table of contents

AN ANSVVER TO Mr. WILLIAM PRYNN'S Twelve Questions concerning Church Government: At the end whereof, are mentioned severall grosse absurdities, and dangerous consequences of highest nature, which do necessarily follow the tenets of Presbyteriall, or any other besides a perfect Independent Government. Together with certaine QVERIES.

Eight QVERIES.

Postscript.

AN ANSVVER TO Mr. WILLIAM PRYNN'S Twelve Questions concerning Church Government: At the end whereof, are mentioned severall grosse absurdities, and dangerous consequences of highest nature, which do necessarily follow the tenets of Presbyteriall, or any other besides a perfect Independent Government. Together with certaine QVERIES.

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SIR,

HAving perused certaine Questions concerning Church Government, which carry your name Imprinted in the Frontice-piece: The well-wishes which I bare towards you, did soone prevaile with me to make an Answer to them, conceiving you may cast an eye thereon as purposely directed to your selfe, by an unknowne Well-willer, rather than on sundry larger Discourses; which if you had seriously considered, I cannot but imagine, you would have been better informed, than, for the present, I perceive you to be in this particular:

The Title sayes, Considerable serious questions sadly propounded: And the Preface tells the World. You have neither leasure, nor opportunity to debate the late unhappy differences touching Church Government, &c. which moved you to digest your subitane apprehensions of these distracting controversies into the ensuing considerable Questions, to be sadly pondered, and solidly debated by sober minded, peaceably disposed men, of greater ability and vacancy for such a worke, &c. Surely 'twill seem strange to [Page] many, that subitane apprehensions should so easily be digested into considerable questions, by one who in his owne confession, had neither leasure, opportunity, nor ability for the worke; and yet it will likely be thought more wonderfull that you seem to thinke so lightly concerning the distractions of the Churches, (from whence not a few of no little piety and judgement conceive the distractions of the Kingdome to arise) as to imagine the publishing of subitane apprehensions, should in any considerable degree conduce to a composing of them.

1. To the first Question then I answer: That the Gospel being by Christs owne injunction to be preached to all Nations, Matth. 28. 19▪ 20. &c. (who have their established different formes of Civill government) Christ hath not peremptorily prescribed one, and the selfe same forme of Ecclesiasticall Government, Discipline and Rites unto all Nations: (the more to blame are such as go about to prescribe one throughout whole Kingdomes throughout the world) and that every severall Nation, Republique, yea and every particular Christian ought to have under the Gospel a liberty and latitude, to choose such a forme of Church government, as he himselfe, for his particular use, in his owne reason and understanding apprehendeth to be according to Gods Word, and not runne on implicitely, subjecting himselfe to whatsoever shall be projected or set up by others, whereof he himself doubting, incurres damnation, Rom. 14. 22, 23. But for the Articles and Statutes of England or Ireland, you know they are for Episcopacie, and were once as strong for Popery, never for Presbytery: but what if they should be for Popery againe, Judaisme or Turcisme? 'tis no offence to make a querie, nor impossible to come to passe: the greatest part of such as choose our Parliament men are thought to be Popishly or Malignantly affected, and if it ever happen so, by the same Law and Doctrine the whole Kingdomes must in consequence, and such obedience as you dictate, conforme themselves to Popery▪ Judaisme or Turcisme: But you will meane the State may impose no other government but what is consonant to the Word of God? I answer: That the Papists, Jewes and Turkes, doe all affirme that both their discipline and doctrine are according to the Word of God, and their yea is full as good as your no: If then you say we must suffer rather th [...]n submit unto such Antichristians; you say well: but withall, I answer, that you agree with them or approve them (even whilst they persecute you) in theirs or your principles (for both have one and the selfe same) of persecution: and though many things in all Church governments, Discipline and Ceremonies are left to humane prudence; the Magistrate may not impose ought upon [Page] the Subjects in generall, or upon any one in particular, which by them or him cannot be assented to, or performed with a good conscience both towards God and men, Act, 24. 16.

But since you take notice of Christs injunction for preaching of the Gospel to all Nations, Matth. 28. 19. let it not seem strange if I affirme it to be impossible for man to propound a rationall way, or so much as a possibility of preaching the Gospel unto all Nations, without Liberty of Conscience, or in any other than an Independent way: for how can you imagine that Hereticks or Unbeleevers will come and live amongst you, that they may be wonne unto the Gospel by your conversation, or by your convincing them from evidence of Scripture, if they know your manner is to ravish their Religion from them before their judgements be fully informed and satisfied? or what hopes have you that erronious or misbeleeving States and Princes will suffer such to lurke within their territories under pretence of propagating the Gospel in simplicity and truth, who hold opinions (too much savouring of Popery) that when they have converted a sufficient party unto their beliefe, they may therewith under pretext of pulling downe Idolatry and superstition, divest them of their power and Country, unlesse they will forgoe their Religion, from which only (how erronious soever) they expect salvation?

Suppose a Turke desirous to turne Christian; the Calvinist, Lutheran, Papist, Brownist and Anabaptist seeking to make him a Proselite to their faith, each of them produce their grounds and reasons from the Scriptures, as the rule and guide to warrant and direct them in this Christian warfare: Suppose againe, that these severall sorts of Christians may differ about the sense of Scripture, nay about the translation or originall Text it selfe; how must this Turke be directed which of them to yeeld unto, or be swayed withall? must it be to them that have the sharpest sword or buffit him the most? doubtlesse he must not respect the numbers or persons of the men, nor yet be led away by the opinions of either which may be more complying with his lust, so are the yea and nay of one or other of them all alike: 'Tis true, the Papists pretend miracles to confirme their doctrine with, and I have heard the truth and reality thereof affirmed by many travellers, whereof some have passed for Protestant Gentlemen; but though I conceive my selfe to have been as desirous, and to have had greater opportunity than many others, as having lived much amongst them, to have been a witnesse of them (if possible) at some time or other, yet could I never attaine so neare as to conceive the least likelyhood thereof; and yet if the Papists could, and did make [Page] use of false miracles, how may they be knowne from true ones? the very Divels are reported to be subject and subordinate amongst themselves, according whereunto they submit unto, or vanquish one another; and we know the Aegyptian Sorcerers went very farre in competition with Moses and Aaron, so that we must not be swayed with miracles neither, little more than with the bare yea and nay of men, untill we see an evident demonstration, an infallible guide, the very finger of God himselfe in the gifts of the Holy Ghost, 1 Cor. 2. 4. 5. who requires of us no other than a reasonable service, Rom. 12. 1. and will in likelihood at the great day of judgement condemne more for believing false Gospels without just grounds, than for rejecting of the true Gospel, notwithstanding it was accompanied with such signes and wonders as were never done before, Joh. 15. 24. As in naturall things, we beleeve nothing but what we see a naturall reason for; so in supernaturall things, lesse than a supernaturall evidence will not suffice: But how then must this Turke be guided and directed to whom he should yeeld himselfe a convert? Surely I know no guide he has besides the reason which God has given him: no thing in the whole creation is to beare such sway with us as reason: but what should then induce this Turkes reason to beleeve the one rather than the other, concerning the revelation of Gods Will unto the World by the publication of the Law and Gospel? whether any, or which of their translations is the truest? with the most orthodox interpretation of any or every portion of the Scriptures? and in summe, which is the right or truest Religion of them all? And since they all alike pretend authority of Scripture with no lesse confidence than the Jews, who ceased not to cry, The Temple of the Lord, The Temple of the Lord, even whilest they were deepest engaged to their sinnes, Jer. 7. 4. I querie what may be the infallible unerring rule to lead this Turke unto the true Religion? what it was in the beginning? whether it be still the same? whether lesse then infallible be a good guide herein? whether rectified reason be not an infallible guide? how came reason to be offuscated and depraved? how may we know when it is vitiated? how recover it and keep it so? And if upon serious disquisition of the truth, we be found involved over head and eares in ignorance and errour, no small portion of pretended knowledge to be bare opinion only, and the greatest part of most religions Antichristian void of reason: how ought such as goe about to fasten a yoake of their owne doctrine and opinions on others, be accounted the most ignorant, absurd, presumptuous, and the greatest enemies both to God and man of [Page] any people under heaven, deserving death more then a murderer or traitor? besides, it will easily appeare upon due scrutiny, That the compelling men to a uniformity by Civill Powers, the enforcing of a Nationall Church, the exacting obedience to whatsoever Religion shall be established by Law, and consequently to change so often as the Politick Civill State shall finde requisite for worldly ends, is the only way to banish all Religion from their hearts, and breed in men a doubting of the Scriptures, if not of God himselfe.

If true Beleevers having got the upper hand may banish Misbeleevers, for feare of being tainted with their errours; than ought not the true Beleevers when they are few in number (suppose them Protestant Merchants or others in Turkish or Popish Countries) by any means remain among the misbeleevers, but forthwith to depart their territories, which the Apostles and Primitive Christians did not practise? nay the contrary is insinuated, whilest Peter exhorted, the Jews turned Christians to have their conversations honest amongst the Gentiles, that they▪ which spake evill of them as evill doers, might by their good works which they should see, glorifie God in the day of visitation, 1 Pet. 2 12. Pauls advice likewise was, That the beleeving husband should not put away the unbeleeving wife in hopes of her conversion, 1 Cor. 7. 12. 16. And Peter bids wives be subject to unbeleeving husbands for the same reason, 1 Pet. 3. 1. 2. And since the power of miracles through want of saith is ceased, we have no meanes so efficacious for convincing people of their errours, and bringing them unto the truth as a godly conversation, the benefit and fruit whereof would be quite frustrated, if the Saints of God being the greater party were either to banish the misse or unbeleevers, or to withdraw themselves if they were fewer: I desire this argument may be well reflected on, which though it be briefe, and not enforced, I conceive it very pat and apposite unto the point in controversie.

I know the permitting men of so many different opinions in a Country, is usually objected as a Bug-bear of all confusion, and disturber of the Civill State: (but to wave the experience of the contrary truth which we see in Holland, Germany, France, Poland, Hungarie, Turky, Barbarie, and elsewhere) why may they not as well live as peaceably and civilly under one Prince or State, as under different neighbouring or remoter powers, betwixt whom, viz. Christians and Turkes, Protestants and Papists, Lutherans and Calvinists, we see concluded and maintained peaceable leagues and covenants, with a free egresse, regresse, or continuance of the respective Subjects in one anothers territories? why should it breed greater confusion, or discompose the Civill peace of England, by permitting [Page] an English Lutheran, Brownist, Antinomian, Anabaptist, Jew, Turk, or others, more than if they were of any other Nation? or with what sense or reason can that priviledge or freedome be denyed unto an Englishman in his owne Countrey, because he differs from the State Religion or opinions that be in fashion, which every forreigner of any Nation of what profession soever in amity with England enjoyes without controle? would it not be a pretty fancie to banish English Anabaptists, or others dissenting in opinion from their native inheritance, their friends and livelihoods, whilest all our Ports, Townes, and houses are open to receive Spanish Papists, and Dutch Anabaptists to take the bread out of our mouths? I only make a querie of it that better judgements may reflect thereon.

2. Particular Churches, members of a Kingdome and Nation are not obliged in point of conscience and Christianity, to submit unto whatsoever publique Church Government, Rites and Discipline a Nationall Councel, Synod and Parliament shall conceive most consonant to Gods Word, unlesse it prove so in the whole Kingdomes, Nations, and those very particular Churches judgement; for by the contrary position, they and Mr. Pryn himselfe should be subject unto the Popish or Episcopall government again, if this present Parliament and Synod doe but say the word; and the Scriptures you aime to prove it with, doe not only faile, but make against you, viz. 1 Cor. 32. 33. which text makes the whole Church, or rather every member thereof capable of prophesying all alike; and I finde not but the Spirits of the Prophets which the Apostle insinuates to be subject, might possibly be of as wise, learned and noble as any the Christian world afforded, in that he said, Ye may all prophesie one by one, v. 31. and whether it be not greater confusion in the sight of God to compell a hundred men of twenty severall opinions to joyne in one imposed worship, than permit each of them to serve God after his owne manner; and a kinde of constraining God to curse the true worshippers for the false worshippers sake, or whether he will or not to blesse the false worshippers for the true worshippers which are amongst them: And lastly, whether way is most peaceable, to desire only a Christian liberty for our selves of serving God in such manner as we finde ourselves bound in conscience to doe, or the imposing a prescript way, our owne, a humane ordinance upon others, who neither understand it to be reasonable or godly; let man see and judge as God doth in judgement and in truth.

As touching your texts for Subjection to the Powers, viz. Rom. 13. 1. 2. 1 Pet. 2. 13. 14. 15. We must bate them in this case, or be subject to Episcopacie, which I would be loath to be, though it boast of Statute Law as [Page] yet: And for 1 Cor. 10. 32, 33. deale equally with me: can you conceive that you give me lesse offence in forcing me to joyne with you in such a way of worship as I thinke sinfull or lesse pleasing unto God, than I should give unto you by peaceably serving God after another manner, only different from yours, without so much as maligning yours, much lesse compelling of your person? or doe you any way seeke my profit that I might be saved, when you force me to serve God (as you alleadge) after such a manner whereof I doubt, and so am damned? Rom. 14. 22, 23.

3. and 4. To the third and fourth Question, I answer: That in all the New Testament you finde no Nationall Churches, but severall Independent ones, to wit, so many Churches as you read of in all the New Testament, no one depending on the other: But for Presbyteriall government, I finde there no print thereof, far better colour for Episcopacie; yet lest Episcopacie should attempt to shew her hornes againe, I propound it as a querie; whether superiority, or Episcopall preheminence, which the Apostles enjoyed in those dayes, was not only by reason of the immediate Call, Commission, and a higher measure of inspiration which they enjoyed above their brethren? and that since neither Bishops, Synods, nor Classicall Presbyteries can now boast more of the Holy Ghost than others; whether Presbyters should not be contented to become levell with their brethren, or restore againe the superiority to Bishops, unto the Apostles and their successours.

The unity, peace and amity which you insinuate to be established by Presbyteriall Government, is it otherwise than of the outward man? can you compell them into an unity of hearts and mindes as well as bodies? was a coercive power ever sanctified for such a purpose? had a subordinate government of Churches, or a Nationall Church been so beautifull in the eyes of Christ, doe we not thinke the Apostles and Primitive Christians would have been as wise to finde it out, and as daring to practise it as were the Papists of England, who alwayes governed themselves by Bishops, their Bishop of Chalcedon being continually resident in the Land till within these tenne yeares? which yet caused such a difference betwixt the Jesuits and the secular Priests, as that they have been impleading one another at the Court of Rome for above these twenty yeares: Methinkes you should have knowne of this, and not presuppose the Apostles and Primitive Christians inferiour to Papists for piety or discipline.

But as for the capacity you say this Government hath to prevent heresie, errours, faction, libertinisme, injustice, and other inconveniences: I appeal to the throne of reason (since that of Christ Jesus being spirituall is so little apprehended by the carnally minded) whether the quite contrary [Page] be not the truth it selfe out of this consideration only, viz. The Nationall Church government to be afterwards established, must first be made choice of by most voices, and so imposed upon the rest for Evangelicall; the most are most commonly the most corrupt, most licentious, most injust, most factious, either quite carelesse or regardlesse of every Religion of all devotion; and by their Club-law which they are able to manage, being the major party, they will both erect their government, and compell others to be like themselves; and I desire to propound it to your saddest thoughts to be seriously considered on, whether such as are so earnest that the State should prescribe them what Religion to be of, and after what manner to worship God, doe not so for the most part out of idlenesse, because they themselves will not take paines to try the Spirits, 1 Joh. 4. 1. whether they be not meer formalists, and such as may be thought to be of opinion, and passe their lives, as though the State must give account both of their faith and workes at the day of judgement, and not they themselves.

As I told you before, I finde no Nationall Church in the New Testament, but severall Independent ones, which I intreat you to consider on: If you say there was no whole Nation converted to the Christian Faith in those dayes, and that the Christians wanted Civill power; I answer, That there were so many Proselites, so many converted as made severall Churches▪ if not in one City, in one Province at least, and within a few (some 12) miles one of another, to wit, the 7 Churches of Asia, no two whereof, besides the first Christian Antioch and others, were above 120 miles distant, and yet all these were Independent, as appears by the respective directions, and the distinct charges which the Blessed Spirit in the Revelation pronounced against them: and whether the Civill powers were then Christian or Antichristian, had the dependencie and subordination of Churches been an Ordinance of God, good Christians would have submitted without a Civill power to pillory or whip them to it, and the Apostles not omitted to reprehend them if they had done amisse in not observing it: Since then a Classicall Presbyteriall government has no president in the New Testament, and Episcopall which domineer'd in some degree, almost ever since has been voted Antichristian, and neither of them by coercive meanes can worke more upon Christians than they can upon so many head of Cattle by impounding them in what place they please, no one of them may warrantably be established.

5. As the grounds of Independent government attribute nothing to the Magistrate in Church affaires farther then the Magistrate is a member of their Churches and Assemblies▪ so no people under heaven ascribe more unto the Magistrate than the Independent doe in Civill matters. The [Page] Great Turke is not so absolute a Monarch, as a Prince, a Magistrate may be over a people independent in matters of Religion, who being such as make a conscience of all they do, would not only give unto Caesar the things that be Caesars, but even suffer their own, their propriety in part to be taken from them, rather then resist the Powers, so they may quietly enjoy the Liberty of their Consciences; the Scriptures, the principles on which they ground themselves, doe necessarily inforce them to it.

6. Doubtlesse in all Nations from the first preaching of the Gospel till now, Christians did multiply, and particular Churches likewise, which for the most part had dependencie on, and communion one with another, and were all subordinate to Nationall and Provinciall Synods, and publique Ecclesiasticall constitutions; but such Churches as were chiefly Papall or Episcopall, and never Presbyteriall till within the memory of our Fathers: and why we may not retreat backe againe into the errours of a hundred yeares, as well as not passe forward unto a farther measure of light and knowledge, I finde little satisfaction, Phil. 3. 12, 13, 14.

7. The selfe same Law of Nature, God, and rectified reason which instructed and warranted all Nations to subject themselves unto some publique forme of Civill government, obliging all persons and societies of men alike, which they conceived most advantagious, doth not warrant us to doe the like in Church affaires; because whatsoever civill action the Civill Magistrate requires, may be performed by the outward man, or else be expiated by penalty without taint of conscience: But the Church government as it aimes at, and regards the Spirituall service and performance, Joh. 4. 24. so the punishments must have a Spirituall effect, Mat. 18. 18. and cannot be undergone, or worke upon a mans spirit unlesse he will himself, neither may he be willing thereunto, unlesse he apprehend them to be according to Christs Government and Institution.

8. From Exod. 23. 17. and 34. 23, 24. with Exod. 34 23, 24. and Deut. 16. 16. Levit. 17. 3. 4. 8 9 which speakes of the Nationall Church of the Jewes appearing at Ierusalem thrice a yeare, you can no fitter apply it to prove a Nationall Church of Christians, than make it possible for all the world if they were Christians (which in such a sense must be Nationall) to appeare thrice a year at Ierusalem, or excuse them if they did not appear: and if you grant a Catholicke Church throughout the world which may reach from one end thereof even to the other: I wonder how it can be denyed, that such as joyn in an Independent Church way may not as possibly be accounted and prove true members of the Catholicke: but for the distinct Synagogues and Parochiall Assemblies, as you call them, of the Iews, to which the people living together in a City were alotted and restrained, [Page] I finde no ground in Scripture; but strong evidence for a kinde of Independent Churches amongst the very Jewsd, as you may gather from Deutt. 12. 12. 18. c. 16. 11. 14. c. 26. 11. 12. Judg. 17. 18. Chapters, by such of them as kept Levites to officiate in their families.

The Synodall Assembly you point at in the Acts 15. was no formall Synod, neither would you as I conceive be contented to be bound by such an other, to wit, by a particular Church (that is a Parish Church in your account if you hold any such in those dayes) of another place, whereof you your selfe are no member: If you say an assembly of brethren at Jerusalem, or any other particular place would now want inspired Apostles to make them Synodall, or their Decrees of binding power, I cannot help you till it please God to send us others; neither doe I finde it in the power of man, because they have not an Apostolicall spirit to supply the want thereof by numbers, by multiplying or assembling so many more Presbyters or Presbyteries, all men subject to the same passions with our selves, Act. 14. 15. which is such a peece of simonie as we must be driven to grant, that God Almighty hath hertofore infatuated such inventions, or yeeld the Papists therein the upper hand.

But where doe we finde that those of Jerusalem sent binding decrees to the Churches of the Gentiles? I see it not in Act. 15. 22. to 32. c. 16. 14. [...]. 21. 25. which you produced for that purpose; since whatsoever their decrees were, though they were infallibly assisted by the presence of the Holy Ghost, v. 28. the penalty thereof was no more, than, If you doe observe these things you shall doe well, v. 29. In Gods name then, if you will needs have Synods, and equalize them with the Apostles in making of decrees, which I feare mee, may amount unto presumption, let them at least binde no otherwise than the Apostles, than these of Jerusalem, to wit Spiritually; give them no sting or poison of Civill power, which will subtilly undermine, enervate, and quite eat out the spirituall, other than which, you will (and may well for this very cause) acknowledge the Apostles neither had nor exercised: But what are these binding decrees of that Synodall Assembly? are they any other than a small portion, or Historicall narration of the Acts of the Apostles? did they then binde the Churches of the Gentiles, or all Christians since, any otherwise than other portions of Scripture doe? And if you will have Synods and Parliaments to make the like binding decrees at present, doe you not say by consequence, and in effect that they may prescribe us another Gospel, other Scriptures? which though they were not differing, but alike to what we have received, are we not forbid to adde unto them upon perill of damnation? Rev. 22. 18, 19.

But for the Churches of England, Ireland, Wales, Scotland, &c. recorded [Page] by Historians and Canons, I feare me, if well examined, they will rather be found Church walls, than Church Assemblies, living Temples of the Lord, whereof Christ Jesus is the corner stone, 1 Cor. 3. 16, 17. Eph. 2. 20, 21, 22. such stocks and stones have the lazie, covetous, aspiring, and which is worst of all, persecuting (lergie-men endeavoured to bring poore Christians to, the laity as they call them, that they might afterwards hew and hammer them into whatsoever else their owne lusts most desired.

9. In my answer to your 3. and 4. Questions, I hope to have given you, if you consider of it, some satisfaction, that even in the Apostles times, the Christians if they had been inspired thereto, or so desired, might have made themselves a Nationall Church, what ever the Civill Magistrate had beene, as well as Papists in England, who alwayes were and still are subject to their Bishop in chiefe, from whom they have appeale to Rome; or the Jewes themselves, which so long as they were a Church, were still a Nationall Church, though subjected to heathen Princes as touching Civill matters, in captivity and strictest bondage: For suppose England ought to be, and were a Nationall Church of Calvinists, or other kinde of Protestants; if the Prince thinke, good to alter his owne Religion, or some party of the Subjects, a fourth, fift or so; does the Kingdome cease to be a Nationall Church? if it do not, let the Kingdome enjoy their Nationall Church, and particulars, such as will, their Independent way; but if it do, it is a strong argument that the erecting of Nationall Churches is no Ordinance of God, as being over liable to casualty and subversion, if the Prince thereof only, or every lesser part has a capacity to overthrow it.

But whereas you say, that as the Christians multiplyed, so were Church Officers, and their Church Government and Discipline varied, the Church Officers encreased, & new Gospels written, prescribing new necessary rules, canons and directions, &c. and transmitting the same liberty unto posterity of supplying and instituting the like as they themselves should afterwards finde requisite: the phrase, or rather doctrine of new Gospels stumbles me not a little, conceiving we finde it branded with a curse, Gal. 1. 8. 9. 1 Tim. 1. 3. and I feare me, you may as well question whether we have that true Gospel which was once delivered to the Saints, Jude 3. as multiply or coine us new ones, for if there be more then one, or since all Christians are endowed with Christian liberty all alike; if a Lutheran, Calvinist, Anabaptist or Brownist; if a Papall Presbyteriall or other Synod; if Rome, Spaine, France or England may make new Gospels, all other States, Synods and People of what opinion soever may doe the like; and then what spirit lesse than wonderfull and infallible can assure us which is the true one? and yet such as will make new Rites and Ordinances (their very [Page] Ceremonies becomming Ordinances by their enjoyning them) to binde the consciences of their brethren, must necessarily derive their warrant from some new and unknowne Gospel, or have no new ones, their owne confession implying no lesse, in that they hold a necessity of new Rites and Ceremonies, whereof they acknowledge to have no expresse warrant for them in the Scriptures which are common to us: and for the liberty you say Independents use in this respect, they impose it no otherwise upon any, but that every particular man which apprehends it not to be Gods way, may peaceably withdraw himselfe.

But for Micah 4. 1. to 5. Zach. 8 22. and Es. 2. 2. 3. And it shall come to passe in the last dayes that the mountaine of the Lords house, shall be established in the top of the mountaines, and shall be exalted above the hills, and all Nations shall flow unto it. And people shall goe and say, come ye and let us goe up to the mountaine of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, and he will teach us of his waies, and will walke in his paths, for out of Zion shall goe forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem; which you bring to prove the Prophets prediction of Nationall conversions, and consequently of Nationall Churches after their dayes; but you can no more justifie a Nationall Church of Christians from thence, than that the same Nationall Church of Christians shall likewise goe up to the Temple of Jerusalem, from whence by the same Prophesie they are also to receive the Word of God, and not from Parliament, Pope, Synod or Presbytery: nay the same Prophesie goes futher, and sayes, That they shall then breake their swords into mattocks, and their speares into sithes; Nation shall not rise up against Nation, neither shall they learne to sight any more, v. 4. May then a Presbyterial Spirit carve or mince this Prophesie out unto us by peece-meales which the Spirit of the most High hath joyned? and if it be to be verified of our times, that Nation shall not lift up sword against Nation, neither shall they learn to fight any more; must not these sonnes of thunder, these men of Warre, these Church Incendiaries, which doe little besides preaching fire and sword, with incensing of their over credulous disciples to drive out of the Country, out of the World, or persecute even unto death such as only dissent from them in opinion; must they not I say condemne themselves? this course may make a People become a Nation of Divels, or sooner cut a whole Nation off, than make them grow into a Nationall Church to serve the Lord in sincerity and truth: But what if whole Nations should be converted? if Nationall conversions may or ought to prove so many Nationall Churches, suppose English, Scotch, Dutch, French, whereof no one will submit unto the other, though they were all orthodox Protestants, would not they be all independent in respect to one another? why then [Page] may it not be tolerable in the eyes of God, for as many lesser Churches or Congregationall Assemblies in one State or Kingdome to enjoy a like independencie? is God a respecter of numbers or of Nations? but if the severall Nations so converted ought to make but one Nationall Church, why may not the proselites of all Countries as well make one Nationall Church, since we find in Zach 14. 16. whilest he prophesieth of a Nationall Church and worship, that every one that is left of all the Nations which came against Jerusalem shall goe up from yeare to yeare to worship? and which of them shall have the honour of the denomination and christning of it? wherefore should it be called after one, rather than after any other of them? I feare me, the Gossips will not agree about the name, especially the Spaniards who have the Catholicke King, and thinke all Nations of the World bound to leave their owne, and learne their fashions, language, and what not: and yet the Jewes will tugge hard for it, both with Rome, the Spaniard, and all others, pretending that all Prophesies and other Scriptures which doe make for a Nationall Church, declare it plainly to be Iewish, Es. 49. c. Mic. 4 1. 5. and the truth is, that under the Law, whoever of the Nations were then converted, were properly said to be of the Iewish Church in whatsoever climate or Country they were resident; but how an English-man can be a member of severall Nationall Churches at once (as he may happen in his life time to have lived severall yeares in severall Countries) or be one yeare a member of one Nationall Church, and another yeare of another, I know not but conceive it to be totally inconsistent, and yet you will make him be a member of the Nationall Church where ever he resides for the present, and that if the Church be now Nationall, whosoever is once a member, can no more cease to be a member (by leaving one Nationall Church and joyning to another) than in time of the Jews when there were but two estates, to wit, within or without the Iewish Church.

But if severall Nationall Churches may make up one Catholique, why may not so many more Independent Churches doe so too? And if all beleevers must now make but one Nationall Christian Church, must it not insinute one High Priest, one Pope to be head thereof that it may the better hold parallel with the Jewish? If well examined 'tis not unlikely something equavalent thereunto may be discovered: will not these changelings like Micha's vagabond Priests which remove from one Benefice, Living, and Lecture to another as often as a more plentifull is proffered, thinke it better to officiate to a Tribe and Nation, than to a petty assembly or family, and so betray their flocks? Judg. 17. 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 18, 19, 20. Is it not to be feared that men cry out for a subordination of Churches [Page] or Presbyteries to inlarge their owne jurisdiction? and will not the same mercuriall spirits at times and opportunities refine the businesse, and discover when a Papall plenipotentia may best conduce to unity, and that with good reason too according to their carnall principles? for why should not a Monarchicall Government be as lawfull in Church as Commonwealth, if the insinuated argument in your seventh Question be good, it should be necessary so far forth, as many judicious Writers hold a Monarchicall Government to be most exquisite and perfect for every Civill State? nay why should it not be so? or how dare the favourers, abetters of a Nationall Christian Church endure any other than a Monarchicall head and government, such a one as God himselfe prescribed unto the Jews, and fully as much (even both at once or not at all, I meane a Monarchicall head to the Nationall Christian Church) as he did a Nationall Church unto the Christians?

10. It will be no more obstinacie, singularity, arrogancie, selfe-ends, nor peremptory schisme for Independents to submit unto a government established by consent of Parliament, and Synod hereafter, than it would have been heretofore, if the said government shall require any thing of them which they cannot yeeld unto without defiling of their consciences: you will, I presume, grant they might doe so in time of Popery or Episcopacie; and why a Presbytery should have a liberty of forcing men to sinne against their owne faith; of doing evill, and exercising dominion over the consciences of their brethren, which neither the Pope nor Bishops might, is to me a riddle.

But I conceive I may safely bring my appeale home to Mr. Pryns owne conscience, and aske him seriously why he might not have made his tenth whole Querie unto himselfe when he opposed the whole Church and State of England, not having then so many to side with him therein, as through Gods goodnesse the Independents now have hundreds? Oh! how doe you give offence unto your brethren, and cause to thinke you then stood out upon a wrong foundation, in that you doe not see the Independents have the same, and so much better? nay doe you not justifie the Archbishop in all his harsh proceedings then against you, whom now you yet prosecute, for what he did then, the very same which you, if you had power, would doe to Independents? reconcile but your selfe unto your selfe, and i [...] I mistake not, you will be far nearer composing the distracting controversies you speake of in your Preface, whereof your 12 bloudy Queries, with doctrines and spirits of the same alay are the only causers.

But good now, tell me, were they Statesmen, Bishops, a Star-chamber [Page] or High-Commission Court, whose government when time was you so withstood? what if a Presbyteriall Discipline seem as unwarrantable and ungodly unto a thousand Christians who you call Independents, and in the opinion of understanding and pious men may likely be as conscientious and knowing as your selfe? but what if you a single man or so, were then in the right, though you withstood the setled government of a State or Nationall Church, and a thousand Independents now in an errour for delivering their opinions concerning Presbyteriall government which is but getting into the Throne, not yet established, were in the wrong? what infallible rule or spirit did you then discover unto the State whereby they might be prevailed upon to thinke you then were in the right, which a thousand Independents may not rather be thought to have now, done the like and more, though yet they were in the wrong? if then we be all subject to the same passions and infirmities, Rom. 14. 15. let us use instructing and admonishing with meeknesse, bearing one anothers burthen, Gal. 6. 2.

1 Pet. 5. 2. Peter exhorts the Elders to take the oversight of the flocke of God amongst them, not by constrains but willingly: Perhaps some may apprehend the sense of these words constraint and willingly to be doubtfull, to wit, whether of the two be to be understood actively in reference to the Elders, and whether of them passively; in which respect the better to finde out the Apostles meaning, it may not be amisse to try both wayes, whereby I doubt not but we shall easily make appear which of them doth best agree with the coherence as well of that which does precede, as of that which followes. If the word constraint be to be understood passively in relation to the Elders, then the meaning of the words, as I suppose, can be no otherwise then this: I exhort you Elders to be forward in taking willingly the oversight of Gods flocke, not delaying so long as that the flocke compell you thereunto; and if it signifie actively, then will it amount to this purpose: I exhort you Elders to take the oversight of the flocke of God so far forth only as they are willing to be subject unto your oversight without constraint: If then we examine which of these two interpretations of the Apostles word will suit best with the context, we shall finde the former not only like a patch of old cloath in a new garment, but if we will make it to bee sense, we must suppose the flocke of God might constraine the Elders to take the oversight, if of themselves they were unwilling, which I suppose you will explode: But that the intention of the Apostle was to exhort the Elders to take the oversight, and rule over the flocke of God so farre forth only as the flocke was willing, is cleare by the following words, v. 3. where he addes, that they should not take the oversight as Lords over Gods [Page]heritage, but being ensamples to the flocke; as if he should say, Though the flocke of God have willingly, and of their owne accord chosen you to have the oversight and rule over them in the Lord, yet thinke not that you have hereby obtained any lordly power or dominion over Gods heritage, but that you might only serve as more eminent ensamples of well-doing unto the flocke: but if they might have taken the oversight by constraint, to wit, whether the flocke would or no; then must they necessarily in that respect have been as Lords over Gods heritage, which the Apostle expressely prohibits them.

If then the Elders, Presbyters and Bishops may not take this oversight of the flocke of God, farther then the flocke doth willingly consent thereto, how will your Parish Churches, much lesse your Nationall endure this Scripture? how can you longer uphold either of them, or they subsist, so long as you beleeve and yeeld obedience to it? unlesse you will say the greater part which are willing, will sufficiently constitute a Parochiall or Nationall Church, and this the Independents will not grudge you, much lesse abridge you of, so long as you are contented to expect, according to the Apostles long suffering, Eph. 4. 2, 3, 4. 2 Tim. 4. 2. till they can be convinced to joyne with you therein.

What thinke you is the reason that the Kings and Parliaments Forces have been kept thus in a ballance destroying one another, whilest it may have been observed for the most part, that when either side was in best condition and height of glorying expecting a totall victory, as I may say, the next encounter proved their overthrow; but that the design of most voices on both sides, is to get power to persecute the other for cause of conscience? We may be confident that if both sides had not only notoriously, but even equally offended God in highest measure through a desire of power to persecute their brethren meerly for differing in opinion, God would have put an end unto the common miseries in giving victory to one of them; but alas! let it be no offence to say, his infinite Wisdome findes neither of them capable of such mercie whilest they are so mercilesse to one another: is it not too too evident that both the Episcopall and Presbyteriall Clergie contrary to Pauls profession, 2 Cor. 1. 24. aspire at rule and dominion over the faith of others, Gods most conscientious and dearest servants? are not their Assemblies full of these alarmes? are not the Pulpit cushions worne out with tragicall actions suitable thereunto? are not these the comfortable doctrines the disconsolate people are forced to feed upon in these miserable distractions, whilest they kill one another in the field, or so many grow mad at home, and dye of penury and desperation? and what thinke we made our brethren the Scotch so successeles [Page] here in England, whilest the Warres are now beginning to kindle in their owne Country, if it were not that they joyne with this Nation, or rather provoke to establish their so much Idolized Presbyteriall Discipline of persecution? when yet they themselves thought they had just cause to be highly offended with the same (their owne) persecuting spirit in Episcopacie. When the Lord required the Israelites to appeare before him at Jerusalem thrice a yeare, he promised that no man should invade their habitations in their absence, Exod. 34. 23, 24. which gracious providence of his no doubt continues still protecting all such as are imployed by his command; but unlesse our brethren of Scotland bethinke themselves in time, and consider that even as the persecuting Bishops of England attempting to impose their government in Scotland gave occasion to begin the Wars in England; so if the persecuting Presbyters of Scotland continue to advance, and get set up the Scotch government in England, it may likely bring all three Kingdomes to make the seat of War in Scotland: I would be loath to prophesie upon this occasion, but doe much feare, that in how bad condition soever both England and Ireland are at present, if the Wars last but a little longer, Scotland will yet be in farre worse: God of his infinite mercy open the eyes of all three Kingdomes in this their heavy visitation, reconciling Himselfe unto them all, and them to one another for his deare Sonne Christ Jesus sake.

11. The Independent Government will not so certainly let in heresies into their Churches, as the setling of a coercive jurisdiction in or at the Clergies becke would keep truth out from a Nationall Church; but if heresies doe multiply without, in the world (in a Nationall Church) that is no more than was foretold and must follow of necessity, Mat. 24. 24. 1 Cor. 11. 19. this concernes not the Independent Government which permits no Heretickes to be amongst them within their Churches: they make use of instructing, admonishing, reproving and rebuking, with such other Spirituall meanes and armour, as are only proper and sanctified by God Almighty for preventing heresies and schismes; whereas all other Discipline which uses imprisoning, whipping, stigmatizing, and evill intreating even unto death, a course fitter to be practised towards beasts than men, may make the outward man turne hypocrite, two fold worse the childe of the Divell, Matth. 23. 15. but never prevaile upon the Spirit, which, such proceedings may easily exasperate and keep further off, but will never win unto the truth.

Men doe not imbrace errours otherwise than as they account them truths, and therefore 'tis no marvell if they prove as pertinacious in defence of the one, as they are constant in defending of the other; in which [Page] respect what ever mens opinions be, they must be dealt withall by the spirit of meeknesse and long suffering, Gal 6. 1. 2 Tim. 4. 2. 5. Tit. 2. 15. 2 Thess. 3. 14. we know not Gods secret times and seasons for bringing men unto the truth; 'tis a dangerous thing to anticipate Gods judgements, even on those which afterwards were to be condemned; some are not called untill the 11 houre in Gods account; and our Saviour taught us to aske forgivenesse no otherwise then we forgive our brethren, and no hereticke how grosse soever, has greater need of a mercifull Presbytery, than that Presbytery has of the Father of mercies.

'Tis an easie matter to exclaime against Anabaptisticall, Antinomian, Hereticall, Atheisticall opinions, as of the soules mortality, divorce pleasure, &c. but one dram of apposite Scripture, and rectified reason would convince men of their errours, far sooner then the clubs & slaves which were and are still imployed against our Saviour and his Saints when they could not resist the Spirit and wisdome wherewith they spake, Act 6. 10. I can easily beleeve that since this Parliament time of speaking and writing truth, many errours have thereby been published, but even you your selfe by this meanes have not acquired a farther knowledge of some truth which otherwise might still in likelyhood have been witheld, I must either stand amazed at the transcendent perfection of your knowledge, or conceive you have spent more time in writing then in reading.

12. Independencie is not so like a Pharisaicall dangerous spirituall pride, vain-glorious singularity, or selfe-conceitednesse of a mans owne superlative holinesse, as the Papall Episcopall, Presbyteriall, or other such like Spirit, which is not contented to enjoy God and himselfe in peace of conscience; but what ever giddy whimsie, or phanaticke projects invade & captivate his understanding, is restlesse, and Haman like, Est. 3. 5. 6. pines away untill he have brought his neighbour, the Towne, Country, and all the World to bow to him perforce, to be of his opinion.

You your selfe in what you stood out against the Bishops or the State were Independent, and like enough would then in modesty have beene contented barely to have enjoyed your independencie, for what you found your selfe not able to submit unto in conscience; and now that you thinke you have gained an opportunity, doe you take it to be justice or good doctrine to foment and be a ring-leader unto others towards the obtaining and exercising dominion over the consciences of your brethren? Oh the impartiality and falshood of a mans owne heart and understanding.

At the beginning of this Parliament the whole Kingdome sided with both Houses in the vindication of their Liberties, and so it continued untill [Page] such as did overmuch idolize Presbytery, prevailed for a Bill to damne Episcopacie root and branch, that Presbytery might succeed it with its fascibus & fustibus, with its Pentifiealibus & Synodalibus; nothing to be abated which concerned either wealth or jurisdiction, only an Episcopall tyranny to be exchanged for a Presbyteriall slavery; which, so soone as the Court Clergie discovered, they quickly plotted a countermine, they quickly prevailed to bring Armes into the Field for asserting the Nationall Church Government and Discipline established by Law; and thus betweene Episcopacie and Presbytery, between the covetous and aspiring dominering Clergie-men of War on both sides, not only the Grand Designe, the vindication of our just Liberties, through Gods just judgement, is well neare blasted, which was so likely to be compassed by a universall union and concurrence without the least bloodshed, save of some few notorious Delinquents, and in stead thereof by their severall and yet joynt contrivances, like Sampsons Foxes, the depraved Clergie-men of both sides have engaged all three Kingdomes in so violent and execrable a Civill Warre to the destruction and sudden death of so many thousand Christians, Protestants, as the whole Christian World in so short a time had never felt the like. Can Mr. Pryn deny but that the parties now in Armes, at least the Grand Instruments, those principall Engines which set all the wheeles a running till they are growne quite giddy, may notwithstanding their subtle carriage of it, be justly denominated Episcopall and Presbyteriall? have they not as the Prophet Daniel saith, 11. 39. divided the Kingdomes betwixt them at present, and as Esaiah tells us, 56. 11. doe they not looke to their owne way only, whilest every one has his chiefe aime at the gaine which comes from his quarter? nay, hath not each of them designed to reduce all three Kingdomes totally to their command and bondage hereafter? may not the Apostle James his reprehension bee thought purposely directed to them? From whence come warres and fightings among you? come they not hence even of our lusts? James 4 1. aut Caesar, aut nullus, nothing will serve their turnes lesse than absolute conquest of the Kingdome, of the whole man both soule and body; imprisonment and banishment, fire and sword to all alike, to Independents as well as to Papists, though the Papists till they renounce some certaine tenets, can be true to neither, but the Independents unto either, as well as the Apostles and Primitive Christians were to the Antichristian Roman Emperours.

Did Micah, to whom the Word of the Lord came, c. 1. 1. tell the Jews how they hated the good, and loved the evill, that they plucked off the skin and flesh from their bones; that they did eat the flesh of Gods people, and flay'd their skin from off them, that they brake their bones and chopp'd them in peeces as for the pot, [Page]and as flesh within the caldron: they build up Sion with bloud, and Jerusalem with iniquity, the heads thereof judge for reward, the Priests teach for hire, and the Prophets thereof divine for money; yet will they say is not the Lord amongst us? Micah 4. 2. 3. 10. 11. and may it not now as truly, if not then Prophetically, be said of too too many on both sides at present, that they seeke to settle uniformity, and build up a Nationall Church in bloud and rapine? did Micah then tell the Jewes, v. 11. That their Heads did judge for reward, and may it not now be said as truly, that neither widow nor fatherlesse, neither poore nor oppressed can tell whom to flye to for reliefe or comfort? no Saint to helpe them within hearing; the Drummes and Trumpets, with imminent necessities, are made excuses to continue the whole Kingdomes in unsufferable miserie, except such as can make friendship by their unrighteous mammon which they have got with fishing in these troubled waters, Luke 16. 9. may it not now be said as justly, that the Priests of both sides, the Episcopall and Presbyteriall Clergie do teach for hire, and prophesie for money? doth not the same Prophet Micah say truly of them, He that putteth not into their mouthes, they even prepare War against him? doe they not with the most prostitute Popelings cry out, No penny, no Pater noster? Is not maintenance, maintenance, the burthen of all their Parlour or Pulpit pastime? and why should they so sacrilegiously set a price on that which is but supposititious, the phancie of their owne braines, the reall truth whereof God required all true Disciples to give for nothing? Mat 10 8. Es. 55. 1. 2. or why should people be forced to buy the chaffer of these Clergie-merchants, rather than the wares or labour of a Shoomaker or porter? would not such dealing be damned for an unjust monopoly, which yet these encroachers practise without a patent, if any but themselves should doe the like? nay why must we be forced to pay these mercenary Clergie-men for such counterfeit service and ministration which others will discharge better, aud that for nothing? is not this the greatest infringing of the Subjects propriety which the Kingdome suffers? I say not this to under value the Ministery of the Gospell, or to disswade an ample and abundant maintenance to such as truly labour in Gods Vineyard; but to exaggerate the heynousnesse of those that do not only set, as they pretend, the inestimable treasure of the Gospell, the unvaluable Word of God to sale as if it were an unholy thing, Heb. 10. 29. but as much as in them lyes, compell all people and Nations by fire and sword to buy trash and trumpery in stead thereof, and that at what price they themselves please: And lastly, as Micah pronounced a curse upon the Israelites for these iniquities of theirs, v. 12. so have we, instead of peace and propriety, nothing remaining besides direfull Wars and barbarous devastations; [Page] and instead of a Nationall Church, through Gods just judgements, we see three Nations weltering in one anothers blood.

If then we have thus fallen into these miseries, may we not by retrograding get cut againe? if Episcopacie and Presbytery have set the State on fire through an ambitious desire of Empire, together with a pestilent spirit of persecuting one another, may not the serving both alike reduce us to quietnesse againe? they are these pretended Clergy-men that love to be called the great Rabbies and Doctors, that affect the uppermost seats at feasts and meetings, Mat. 23. 6. 7. these thinke the Blessed Spirit departed from all the Saints, to be retreated and confined unto their breasts; they will allow no body to Prophesie besides themselves, contrary to Pauls testimony, 1 Cor. 14. 31. in which respect the people being for the most part bred up in invincible ignorance, or most erroniously both disciplined and doctrinated, through all which they become plunged into such a desperate and inextricable misery, who may and ought justly to be called unto account for it, but the whole Clergie of the Kingdome? a charge was laid upon the Prophet Ezekiel 3. 18. to instruct and warne the Jewes of their wicked wayes, and if he failed therein, the punishment was threatned to himselfe; and since the Clergie in other cases as of separating themselves like a tribe of Levi▪ usurping tithes, &c. appeale unto the Law▪ why should not they with their scroules and catalogues of offences be tryed by the Law, as Festus said to Paul when he sent him unto Caesar? Act. 25. 12.

Consider a little, I intreat you, the case of one upon the high way going quietly and soberly about his businesse; if another should quarrell with him and say he goes the wrong way, he understands not his owne businesse, and so compell him with threats and violence to goe and doe as he would have him; would not every traveller that beheld it, take this other to be impertinent, proud, presumptuous and injurious? and yet thus doth the world treat the despised Independents, the meekest of all Christians, which our Saviour sent into the world like sheep in the middest of wolves, Mat. 10. 6. And as Paul then thought he ought to doe many things contrary to the Name of Jesus of Nazareth, Act. 26. 9. Ioh. 16. 2. So most men thinke they doe God good service in reviling, mocking, and persecuting the Independents by all manner of wayes, and for no other cause but that they are more scrupulous than most men seem ordinarily, in desiring to keep a good conscience both towards God and man.

And whereas you say that Independency casts off the strongest bonds of brotherly love and care, &c. I beseech you consider a little better of their wayes; Is it not Pauls golden rule and theirs, to give no offence neither to the Jew, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the Church of God, 1 Cor. 10. 32. to walke in [Page]wisdome towards them that are without? Col. 4. 5. Is it not a speciall and peculiar drist of theirs to winne even such as are without the word by their lowly and pious conversation, 1 Pet. 3. 1. Nay, doe they not treat farre more humanely and Christianly all such with whom, by reason of their unbeleefe or errours they can have no Church fellowship, than Presbyterian or any coercive Church government does those whom they would compell by persecution to joyne with them in Church society? if they put to death the bodies of their friends, and consequently damne their soule, for they cause them to dye as obstinate persons as heretickes; what exquisite and new invented torments conjured from below the pit of hell have such in store to treat their enemies withall? or how doe they follow Pauls injunction, who ordered the incestuous person to be proceeded against in such a manner only, as though the flesh were mortified or destroyed, yet the spirit might be saved in the day of our Lord Iesus, 1 Cor. 5. 5. I have purposely insisted only upon the most materiall passages of your Questions, fearing I should have proved over tedious if I had done otherwise; however for a further dilucidation and strengthning of what I have already said, give me leave to adde a few lines more.

If a Pope, State, or Synod may impose Articles of Faith, or forms of Worship, prescribe men how they shall understand the Scriptures, stint them to discourse on certaine portions only, and how far forth from hence will follow these severall grosse absurdities: 1. That it is superfluous for common people to have or read the Bible, because they may not be knowne to beleeve any part thereof farther than they are dispenced withall, and that may be imparted to them in such respective Treatises approved of by the Pope, State, or Synod. 2. That it is needlesse to try the Spirits, because according to such constitutions, they may neither flye from them though they discover them to be erronious, nor imbrace them if they be of God; but must implicitly conforme to whatsoever is required of them. 3. That it were no blessing for God to have given unto any man a more discerning spirit than ordinarily, because though never so transcendently full of the Holy Ghost, he must notwithstanding quench, renounce it, and submit unto their Magisteriall decrees whether they be true or false. 4. If a Pope, State or Synod will expect Spirituall obedience to their Decrees, they must assume to them the Spirit of infallibility, something above the common sphere of mankinde, otherwise they take too much upon them, and their brethren will be apt to examine, question and judge them too when they see cause; and from the opinion of their infallibility will follow, that it should be needlesse for the Pope to take counsell of his Cardinalls; the Statesmen to receive information from the Subjects whom they represent, [Page] and from whom they receive their authority in trust only; Synods of any others, or for they themselves to study the points before hand or as private men; but Peters Chaire, the State-house or Convocation-house would ipso facto inspire, and translate them with Saul amongst the Prophets what ever their condition had been before. 5. It would follow that whosoever take upon them this infallibility of deciding controversies, should never faile therein if their Civill power be strong enough to backe them in it; because both Popes, States and Synods doe alike lay claime, at least require the same obedience to whatsoever they decree, in defiance of one another, defending themselves and doctrines more by Civill power than either right or reason, it being the Sword, not the Scriptures or reason, which decides the controversie between carnall and persecuting people: And lastly, if fining, imprisoning, or any degree of persecuting, or using of coercive meanes against such as differ from them in opinion were lawfull in the true Church or people of God; the Papists or any other Heretickes, because they take themselves to be the true Church, were bound to use the same even against the Saints of God because they differ from them; neither should it be any aggravation unto the Jewes at the day of judgement for crucifying of our Saviour, and shedding so much innocent bloud of Saints, which yet we finde to fall upon them heavily, Matth. 23. 35. if persecution for cause of Conscience, were lawfull in any people; since in such case both Jewes, Papists and Protestants of any sort which persecute might say; The true Church had leave to persecute, we held our selves to be the true Church, and thought we had done God service in killing such as differed from us, Joh. 16. 2. the putting of the Saints to death is but a consequence which necessarily followes the doctrine of persecution for cause of Conscience, though never so erronious.

I will not deny but Independents ought to take advice and be directed by the wisdome, learning and piety of others who are better gifted than themselves, neither may they doe any thing rashly contrary thereunto, but rather suspend a while, still desiring farther light and information: yet when it comes unto an issue, and that we must necessarily declare our selves; we may not by any composition, or for any respect whatsoever be finally overswayed by the wisdome, learning, and piety of others never so eminently gifted, nor be prevailed upon to doe any thing against our owne consciences and understanding.

Eight QVERIES.

[Page]

VVHether have not Parliaments and Synods of England in times past established Popery? And whether may they not possibly do so again hereafter? Whether in case a Parliament and Synod should set up Popery, may they therein be disobeyed by the people? If they may be disobeyed in one particular, whether may they not upon the like grounds be disobeyed in another? whether the people be not judge of the grounds for denying obedience to Parliament and Synod in such a case? Whether the pretence of giving a Parliament and Synod power to establish Religion, and yet reserve in our owne hands a Prerogative of yeelding or denying obedience thereunto, as we our selves thinke good, be not an absolute contradiction? and lastly, Whether they that attribute such a power to Parliaments and Synods as they themselves will question and disobey, when they thinke good doe not in effect weaken and quite enervate the power of Parliaments, or else condemn themselves in censuring the Independents for witholding of obedience from Parliament and Synod in such things wherein they never gave, or meant them to have power?

If the whole Kingdome may deny obedience unto Popish Acts and Canons, or upon any other the like just occasion, and they themselves be judge whether the occasion be just or no; whether may not Independents, a part of the Kingdome only doe the like in all respects? or whether ought they because a lesser part of the Kingdome, to yeeld obedience to Popish Acts and Canons, because a major part approve of and agree with a Parliament and Synod in establishing them?

Whether would it not be an ungodly course for any people to hazard any thing at the disposall of others, or to be carried by most voices, which may possibly, if not more then probably he decided in such a mannee as the yeelding obedience thereunto would be burthensome to their consciences, if not absolutely sinfull?

Whether were it not an ungodly course for the whole Commons of a Kingdoms, so farre differing in Religion as that they professe before hand that they dare not yeeld to one another upon perill of damnation, to make choice of a Parliament and Synod, with entring into Vow and Covenant to become afterwards all of that Religion whatsoever the Parliament and Synod should agree on? whether it be not absurd for men to say they will be of such a Religion as shall be setled, before they se [...] evidence to convince them? and whether it be in the power of man to be really of what Religion he will, untill he see reason and demonstration for it?

If a representative State or Magistrate may make Lawes for setting up a Religion, or establishing what Church government they please; whether have not the people the same power originally in themselves, to assume againe, and put it in execution when they please? and whether were this otherwise than to attribute unto [Page] a mixt multitude, to the World, if not absolutely as it is distinguished from the Saints in Scripture, Joh. 15. 18. 19. and 17. 6. 9. 11. 14. at least by most voices, to make choice of a Religion, Laws and Discipline, wherewith the Saints, houshold and Church of God must necessarily be governed?

Suppose a Lutheran and Calvinist, or any others differing in opinion; Whether may they out of hypocrisie or implicitly submit and be comformable to one anothers discipline and doctrine whereof they doubt, before they be convinced? Whether have either of them an infallible way to convince the other, and bring them over to be sincerely of their opinion before their understandings be satisfied? if they have, why doe they not put it in execution? if they have not, why should they be offended with one another if they continue differing?

Whether opposing Gods people or their wayes be not a fighting against God? whether it be not extreamest rashnesse, if not absolute madnesse and presumption to attempt any thing which may possibly prove a fighting against God? and whether any man in these dayes can have a fuller assurance in his owne conscience, or give better evidence unto others that he doth not oppose the people of God whilest he opposes such as differ from him in opinion, than Paul whilest he persecuted the Church, Phil. 3. 6. thought he ought to doe many things contrary to the Name of Jesus of Nazareth, Act. 26. 9?

Postscript.

COuld the foregoing Answer have found as free a passage at the Presse as your Questions did, it might have presented it selfe to you a month ago; & though in the interim I have had the sight of a second dozen of Interrogatories, I may safely professe the reading of them did not administer unto me any other matter of edifying, than to finde and bemoane the want of those sober minded, and peaceably disposed men, &c. you spake of in your Preface to the former dozen, which might sadly ponder and seriously debate them: however since they are presented as a second course, though I confesse my stomack was overcome at very first, yet that you may see I am not easily prevailed upon to passe by any thing of Mr. Pryns without perusall, please to be contented that I observe your 2 Intergatory is, Whether Independents doe not extraordinarily ecclipse, impeach, if not absolutely deny and subvert the lawfull power of Civill Magistrates, all former Parliaments, and this present too in all matters of Church Government, and Ecclesiasticall affairs, &c. But from what is thereby insinuated A. S. doth freely cleer the Independents in his Observat. and Annotat. upon the Apologeticall narration, where he saies, That the Civill Magistrate arrogates not to himselfe (not [Page] so much as) any directive power in matters of Religion. p. 5. The Civill Magistrate arrogates no Spiretuall authority to himselfe. p. 48. The Parliament indeed is the supreame Judicatory, severe Tribunall, the most sacred refuge, &c. in Civill causes, but it pretends no directive power in matters of Religion, by teaching or preaching, or judging of controversies of Religion; nor any executive power that is intrinsecall to the Church, as in the vocation, deposition, and suspension of Ministers, &c. (which I conceive the Committee for Religion will not like of) which are meerly, spirituall. p. 6. If your meaning be that the Parliament should judge between the Independents and Presbyterians, you goe against the Parliaments intention: ibid. and lastly, For intrinsecall spirituall power, it is not in your power to grant the Civill Magistrate any at all; neither can you give him more spirituall obedience than Scripture permitteth you, or give him a part of the spirituall power which you have received of God, It is only in God who can give power therein to any man we dare not be so bold. p. 28. Now if this doctrine be Presbyterian, and Presbyterian good, and that deny unto, nay make the Civill Magistrate disclaime all authority in matters of Religion; with what justice are Independents censured as subverters of the Civill powers for saying but the same? If it be objected, that A. S. seems to be of another opinion in other passages; let but the objecters reconcile him to himselfe, and the great controversie between Independents and Presbyterians will be well neere composed: But that you may see the Independents assume no greater liberty of dissenting from their brethren in matters of opinion than is warrantable by the Presbyterian rule: See likewise what A. S. sayes p. 22. to wit; It is safe even for a few men to dissent from all the World if they have very strong reason for their dissent. p. 28. Particular congregations are not subject unto the judgement of Senates or Assemblies, but according to the word of God: and lastly, It is holden for a certaine and undoubted maxime amongst all Procestants, that the Church has no absolute power in her judgements, &c. You your selfe cannot say lesse, unlesse you make an Idoll of them; yet if you will but grant them thus much, they are totally and sincerely the Civill Magistrates, and yours in all the rest.

In your third Intergatory, you insinuate That the Independents conceive a right and liberty of gathering to themselves such as are Parishioners of 20 other godly Ministers by the established laws and customes, which you say our solemns Vow and Covenant obligeth us to maintaine: Good Sir, tell me, Are they the Episcopall Laws of England, the Presbyteriall Laws of Scotland, or the popish Laws of Ireland which you call established Laws? for the whole Kingdome of Ireland both representative and represented, will now no doubt he able to declare by Club-law wherein your best argument and strength consists, that the Popish are now the established Laws of Ireland; which [Page] of them is it your expect us to be engaged to by out solemne Vow and Covenant? (for doubtlesse there are many who thinke the Covenant obliges us unto all three alike in their respective senses, for no few both Popish, Episcopall, Presbyteriall and Independent men have taken it in no other:) The Popish I conceive you will renounce, though by your owne manner of arguing you cannot even at present get cleare thereof as touching Ireland nor England when ere we have a Popish Parliament againe: As touching Episcopacy, I presume you understand of a Bill prepared for its extirpation; and why may not Presbytery be kept out as lawfully if the State and Nation shall thinke fitting according to your second-considerable Question? wherein since you doe in effect gratifie a Parliament and Presbyteriall Synod with a power of setting up a Nationall Church Government and Religion: and in your fourth Interrogatory you tell us, That Kings and Parliaments have the selfe same jurisdiction in and over all Ecclesiasticall matters which are not positively of divine institution and injunction, as in and over temporall; will it not follow by the same argument, that a Popish or Episcopall King and Parliament may doe, or have the same in England and in Ireland? But have you not in these two lines said in effect, That men must conforme to Presbyteriall, Episcopall, or Popish rites and government to all alike, if King and Parliament be such, whilest they proclaime them to be according to the Word of God? Nay, may not this present Assembly, whom you court with most orthodox, pious, conscientious learned Ministers, especially selected, 2 Interg. taking up your owne words, call this a cursed project, or new kinde of Gunpowder, 2 Interg▪ whereby you have left them nothing to debate or give consent to, but what the King and Parliament might doe without them? for where finde: we warrant for assembling of a Synod to debate or decree any thing which was before positively divine institution and injunction? and for all the rest, have you not granted it to King and Parliament? Surely you have no way to make the covetous amongst the Clergie amends for this escape of yours, unlesse you vindicate their tithes; this, and this only may yet procure your pardon & indulgency; you drive it forward with a gentle blow both in the beginning and end of your 3 Interg. concerning which, having given them as briefe a touch in my Answer to your 12 Question, I referre you to what else is said in this behalfe more largely in the Bloody Tenet, (not so bloody a tractate as your dozens of Questions and Interrogatoryes) Compassionate Samaritan, (fitter to deal with your immedicable vni [...]u [...]) and John the Baptist, (who cried, Prepare the way of the Lord, Mat▪ 3. 3. whereas your Questions & Interrogatories prepare the wayes of men only, crying, Room, room for Proclamations & Decrees which require the [Page] consciences of Gods Saints to be subjected thereunto, as if they had authority to say, It seemeth good to the Holy Ghost and them it should be so ▪ Act. 15▪ 28.)

But if Episcopacie be guilty and condemned both root and branch, must not Presbytery have it Mittimus and packe away therewith? where are the branches of Episcopacie to be found unlesse amongst the Presbyters? how can Episcopacie be Antichristian, and the Presbyters who have no other Ministery, require the same Jewish tithes, and though formerly, but subordinately, doe now joyntly execute the same dominion over the consciences of their brethren? But if you meane that we are bound by the League and Covenant to maintain the established Laws and customes of the respective Kingdomes, and bring them to such a uniformity (with all meanes sanctified for such a purpose can lead them to) according to the word of God; you say well, if our Brethren of Scotland meane the like: But will they be contented that an Act of our present Parliament prepared to cut off English Episcopacie shall doe the like good justice upon the Scotch Presbytery if they conceive it requisit? Nay, will they give us leave to examine, refine, purge and punish their Presbytery for such misdemeanours, such trampling underfoot of Christian Liberty, such enslaving the consciences of Gods people by humane Acts and Ordinances, with divers others, all which are thought fitting to be censured in Episcopacie?

To conclude then, we finde it prophesied of our Saviour before his birth, That he should neither strive, [...]or cry, nor make a no [...] the streets, he should not breake a bru [...]sed reed▪ nor quench the smoaking flax, Mat. 1. [...] [...]9▪ 20. The ditty which the quire of heavenly Host sang at his nativity was, Glory be to God in the highest, on earth peace, good will towards men, Luke 2. 13. 14. according whereunto his owne actions were full of peace even toward those that would not receive him, as when they of Samaria refused to make ready for him, Luke 9. 52. to 56. and the Garga [...]e [...]es who preferring their hogs before him, desired him to depart their Country, Mat. 8. [...]4. with divers others: His Commission to his Apostles was that they should have peace one with another, Mark. 9. 50. That they should proclaim peace unto whatsoever place or house they came, Mat. 10. 14. Mark. 6. 11. Luke 10 5. and at His departure He left his peace with them as a Legacie, Joh. 14. 27. which they continually improved, baptising and peaceably edifying all such as gladly received & heard them, Acts 2. 41. Rom. 14. 17. 18. and quietly departing from such as did refuse them and their Gospell, Acts 13. 46. and 18. 6. 7. and 19. 9. But whosoever will reflect upon the Gospell and Government, your Questions and Interrogatories point at they will quickly discover how point blanke quarrelling and fighting they are with that which our Saviour and his Apostles taught, which causes me so much more seriously to apprehend and bewaile the want of those sober minded and peaceable disposed men you spoke of, to whom how few soever, I recommend you, and your immedicable [...] [...] and satisfaction to your second thoughts untill I may perceive the foregoing [...] unto your [...] has been accepted or refuted; Farewell.

FINIS▪

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Title statement

An answer to Mr. William Prynn's twelve questions concerning church government at the end whereof, are mentioned severall grosse absurdities, and dangerous consequences of highest nature, which do necessarily follow the tenets of Presbyteriall, or any other besides a perfect independent government : together with certaine qveries.

Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664?

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1644

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2004-11 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1).

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A70943

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Wing R1665

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ESTC R17515

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11932986

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51165

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— An answer to Mr. William Prynn's twelve questions concerning church government at the end whereof, are mentioned severall grosse absurdities, and dangerous consequences of highest nature, which do necessarily follow the tenets of Presbyteriall, or any other besides a perfect independent government : together with certaine qveries., Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664?, Burton, Henry, 1578-1648..

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28 p.

s.n.,. [London :: 1644]. (Caption title.) (Attributed to Henry Robinson, merchant. Cf. Halkett and Laing (2nd ed.)) (Postscript by H. Burton. Cf. BM.) (Reproduction of original in Thomason Collection, British Library.)

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