An ansvver to the sope-makers complaint wherein is clearly demonstrated their scandalous aspersions, and the falacies of their atguments [sic] proved before the honourable committee for regulating the excise, Octob. 23. 1650. As also the proceedings of the proposers and their severall proposals: wherein is found nothing prejudiciall to the Common-wealth; no excise further being further added, no man restrained, no man oppressed, but that every man may make what he can, so he pay his due. In which, such care shall be taken, as may tend to the benefit of the Common-wealth, and the reputation and profit of the trade of the sope-maker of London. By him that is a lover of honesty, and a well-willer to that trade.

An ansvver to the sope-makers complaint wherein is clearly demonstrated their scandalous aspersions, and the falacies of their atguments [sic] proved before the honourable committee for regulating the excise, Octob. 23. 1650. As also the proceedings of the proposers and their severall proposals: wherein is found nothing prejudiciall to the Common-wealth; no excise further being further added, no man restrained, no man oppressed, but that every man may make what he can, so he pay his due. In which, such care shall be taken, as may tend to the benefit of the Common-wealth, and the reputation and profit of the trade of the sope-maker of London. By him that is a lover of honesty, and a well-willer to that trade.

An ansvver to the sope-makers complaint wherein is clearly demonstrated their scandalous aspersions, and the falacies of their atguments [sic] proved before the honourable committee for regulating the excise, Octob. 23. 1650. As also the proceedings of the proposers and their severall proposals: wherein is found nothing prejudiciall to the Common-wealth; no excise further being further added, no man restrained, no man oppressed, but that every man may make what he can, so he pay his due. In which, such care shall be taken, as may tend to the benefit of the Common-wealth, and the reputation and profit of the trade of the sope-maker of London. By him that is a lover of honesty, and a well-willer to that trade.

Table of contents

Title page

An Answer to the Sope-makers Complaint, &c,

Propositions made to the grand Commissioners of the Excise Anno Dom. 1650. Annoque secumdo libertat. Angliae.

Eight Queries, presented to the Honourable Committee for Regulating the Excise, October 23. 1650, in answer the Sope-makers Petition.

§

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The Preciousness OF CHRIST To the Believing-Christian. Plainly and Briefly set forth for the Edification and Consolation of Believers in, and Lovers of the Lord Jesus Christ. IN A SERMON On 1 Pet. 2. 7.

By William Walker, B. D.

LONDON, Printed by Anne Maxwel, for Joseph Clark, 1667.

An Answer to the Sope-makers Complaint, &c,

[Page]

[Page]

THis morning I being abroad about my affaires, I met with a scandalous Pamphlet, entituled as before; and finding therein severall things reflecting upon the Honor of the Parliament, & the Committee for regulating the Excise, as also some aspersions and untruths, cast upon particular men; I shewed it to some eminent persons, more honorable in place, and able in judgment, than any subscriber, who quickly perceived by the Language, who was the Author, and desired me to give an answer to what was materiall.

And now to his first objection against me, wherein he declares,

It is an easie matter to raise money by way of Excise, but the difficulty is to doe it justly.

To which I reply, if it be just in the Parliament of England which is the Supreme Authority of this Common-wealth, to impose a legall tax by way of Subsidy, Fifteens, Custome and Excise, or otherwise, (which is undeniable, except you will argue against principles) whether those men the Parliament shall imploy duely and without partiality, to collect and gather that Imposition so put, without breach, or altering any of their Ordinances or Acts in that kind provided; whether in justice, these men are guilty of the oppression and ruine of those people, upon whom it is imposed, for their due execution of that act, I leave to the impartiall Reader to judge.

But here is Anguis in Herba, he first would lop the branches, and then pedi tente root and branch, first take away the Collectors, then the Assessors.

[Page]He saith next, which they never look after or speake of, it being their maxiome or principle, so they get mony they care not how.

It is my maxiome and principle, which I have ever observed, not to question the power of Parliament, that belongs not to me, but allwaies to submit to that power which so well protects me from such turbulent spirits.

Next he saith, it's true the King made the Sope-makers pay above 30000 li. a year.

I say it's false, the King made them not, for they bought the Patent of the former Patentees, the white Sopemakers, and for it gave 40000 l. that they might become immediate Farmers to the King.

Next he saith, And there is no doubt, but the same principle he went upon, such men as the proposers are.

To which I reply, tis true he went upon the same principle of such men as you the Objectors are, which were propriis personis, reall actors in that businesse.

And next with him I joyne, that I hope our eyes shall never see that destruction and ruine of the Parliament, as we have upon the King, &c. And further I hope God will defend them from the calumnious pens, and tongues of such men, as not many moneths agoe would have rendered them odious to the people, and at that time have subjugated them (if possible those designs had come to passe) to the insolent power of a confused multitude, but God blasted their wicked and shirking ways, for all which their wicked practices, we need no other prospective glasse, then their own Books, which had they been owned, the Author had ere this received his most just demerit.

And for our Proposals, stile them what you will, your tongue nor pen is no slander, but this I may say for them, that they received a fairer Character then your large paper, and more reality and truth appeared in them as by the honorable Committee did appear, when severall heads of your long speech (to be modest with you) did not appear truth.

Example, you did declare, that the Excise of the materialls [Page] had for the time past, did for the present, and would for the future, advance more to the benefit of the Common-wealth, then the manufactory, this being the main pillar upon which you had builded your long work, or Basis, hapned to be rotten, and by the Committee proved to your face contrary, for the fore-past time, & such like solid reasons given, that it was likely to be less for the future, as (put you altogether) you can never give a true answer to the contrary, and this was but by inconsiderable summe, a matter of 9000l. these acts speak you what you are, I passe on to enquire, how the due execution of a legall power of 7. years establishment, should all of a sudden put the people to shake off their Governors and Government, and truly this I cannot finde, except it be by such as have your spirit, which are never contented with any thing, witnesse your many changings from one party to another, in both Parliament and Army.

And how any of our Proposals, look with a species to set the Prince upon his Fathers Throne, I know not.

But here you appear like your selfe, a Firebrand in the Commonwealth, If you be the man (to conclude in your phrase) whose name I have seen subscribed to many a scurrillous pamphlet; and so much for your first Proposition.

And as for your second, wherein you desire to know, how the worke must be done, if it be not in the road the King troad in? Alas good Man, you must be better practised in in your trade, your partners may do well to instruct you, you are an ingenious Pupill, and would learne quickly; certainely the way is honest, or else you had knowne it; some of your partners knew the Kings pathes to a haire, and have walked therein yeare after yeare; and if a man would follow a president to do evill, and answer your own words, to destroy Houses and Goods, and to ruine the Poore, he must tread in those steps your Brethren have done, which how dangerous and clamorous that hath been, I leave to be determined by those that in a short time will take it into consideration, which are much wiser, and are in greater power then You or I.

[Page]Then next you admit that a Toleration be given to all in City and Countrey to make Soap; it is impossible for those that have fixed houses to pay Excise exactly and not break, as the Proposers have done, say you.

To which I answer; leave shall be given to all in City and Countrey to make Soap, no restraint from any, no not from so very a—as your worship, but make till you break, which would not have been very long, if those you most calumniously have abused, had not proved your best friends; and therefore hereafter pray for my Lord Generall CROMWELL.

And for the fixed houses in London, I know no reason why their owners should not joyn with me which really endeavour the restauration of the Trade to London, by a due and exact execution of the Acts of Parliament, without either addition of Excise, or further penalty then is already prescribed; so that every one may pay exactly and not break no more then I: which I do abhorre from your calumnious pen, and dares to tell it to you, that you unjustly slander me, as hereafter may to your cost appear; but you have abused far better men then my self, God forgive you for both, and for the future I resolve to follow the example of that honourable person forenamed, to reward you good for your evil, if it ever be in my power.

But now to your hundred of pans so lately set up, though I beleeve not one half, yet some more may be then I imagine, because divers of your most eminent Subscribers have of late set up just such as you speak of, and I do verily beleeve to the same purpose, that they might pay the lesse Excise; but for any power to break open dores, or oppresse the poor, I declare it to all the world, I had rather suffer then do injury to another, neither was it ever my practice, or ever shall be to run any desperate course, or cause others so to doe in these troublesome times, (to answer your words verbatim) which may prove of dangerous consequence to the State, for so I might come like you to render my self capable of a hanging.

But to proceed; next you are informed that the Proposers [Page] are Soap-makers, (I grant it) and yet upon this bare report your slanderous pen dares render them broke, and presently following, you say not worth two groats; I do beleeve you, and your Partners could wish it so, but God forgive you, I shall not much trouble my pen to vindicate my self in a thing so well known to the contrary, yet let me tell you if such desperate affirmations upon so false informations, and such rash censures be the Levellers Tenents, into their Congregation let not my soul come; and yet as if you would fill full the measure of your abominations, dares without knowledge of the parties passe your censure of Gods judgements upon them; but if all were true you had spoke of us, I would say with the Prophet Micah, Rejoyce not against me, O my Enemy, for though I fall, I shall rise again.

Next you affirm your confidence is, we will not stand to it, nor can give security for our performance of it.

To both which I say thus; in that we would not stand to it, your eyes and ears were sorrowfull witnesses that your confidence has deceived you, and that to your face before a judicious and honourable Committee; and for our security, I can if there were any necessity for it, bring more honest, lesse turbulent, more able, lesse insolent men then your self, to be responsible security for the true performance of what we propose, and so much for your second.

Now for the third, which you say to your understanding runs thus; indeed I imagine your wits are but weak, and sometimes may run a wooll-gathering, but I hope we shall not walk in any crooked & rigorous ways, for that would not agree with my Motto, which is to walk in the light purely and surely; and so thereby shall be able to give a better answer to the State, then all your following lines but the last, sets forth; not one of which is worth the answering: but in a word, we will double the Excise with lesse charge then formerly, yea, or the breach or altering any Ordinance or Act of Parliament in that kind provided, no nor offer injury in the least to any man, if the State shall think us worthy the employment; and I am confident nothing troubles neither you [Page] or your Partners more, then the fear of the employment of able men in that businesse; for set a Thief to catch a Thief, is sometimes State-policy. Sir, and for the information you give of the Bobber at Bow, I am not sensible that of late you have don the State any greater service: but catch him napping, and take half for your pains; then I undeniably conclude with you, as you of us, that neither you nor we, will or can work for nothing.

And one thing let me tell you by the way, I believe you have not got much by bobbing.

Well, but here I must resolve a riddle, as it seems to mee, you tell them of our great houses, and a great Trade, and that we may prove the great ones we talk of to devour the little one; what a great Trade, and great house, and yet not worth two groats? heres a mystery to me, and broke too; well I passe it by for present, but if I knew but at this day what you were worth, which for any thing I know may not be much (and there is some hazard too, as it may happen in the keeping of it) I could give a neer guess (if you continue your bobbing trade) how long it would be ere you broke, for I know some that joyn with you in subscribing, that outwit you there, and being alwaies ready to helpe on another at a dead lift, will rather then faile, give you a heave too. I advise you beware and remember this, when any one of them buyes a good bargain, and lets you have part, let me know it, and I'le acknowledge my error.

Well, next you tell the Parliament of their great streights, and the cause of the Excise, they know all this as well as you, and I beleeve would not have continued it thus long, had not urgent necessities of the Commonwealth required it, and all this evill is caused by turbulent Spirits (God keep you quiet) and therefore seeing the case so stands, make a vertue of necessity, and pay this the Parliaments legall Imposition duely and truly, and as your Petition hath it freely and willingly, all which your carriage in this businesse declares you doe? but how, I leave the World to judge. Indeed your words and deeds seldome agree; submit then to the present power, and [Page] threaten not the Parliament, [...] Committee, as may be easily gathered in your 7. last lines, where you pretend to seek ease and redresse, but meet with honest proposals, which if they countenance, what you will doe God knowes, but a world of clamors followes, I doe therefore in love to your person advise you to submit to a legall power, and forbear to lay platforms and ground-works to ill-minded people, which may doe more hurt than ever you did good, and so much for your 3d. and 4th. Proposition or interjection be it what you please.

Now followes wonders, for in your last line, I find most Honorable and Worthy Senators: here's a Title indeed, good God keep you in this mind, I fear 'tis too good to hold; it is not long since you rendered them in other words, but keepe you there, and you hear no more of me, I will ee'n leave you while you are in good mind to your reasons, and proposalls so reall and certainly gaining to the Nation, (this is new with you too) which I beleeve hath not appeared so to the Honorable Committee for regulating the Excise by their answer to your papers and my words (which follow now in writing) for I finde not their answer in all your book, therefore I will insert it modestly in mine, to whom, by their wisdome and solide judgment it more properly belongs, and for ever bid you adieu having spent 3. whole hours upon your paper this 24th. Octob. 1650. halfe an hour past 12. and rest your wel-wishing friend,

John Walker.

Propositions made to the grand Commissioners of the Excise Anno Dom. 1650. Annoque secumdo libertat. Angliae.

[Page]

1 THat till the totall, of so much be advanced, as was the last yeare, we the undertakers will expect no sallarie.

2. That to make that double which we will engage to doe, we shall only expect 2. s. per pound, and that not out of that bare summe, but out of the overplus which shall be produced above the double.

3. That whatsoever we bring in to the State or Commissioners above the double of the last years produce, we for our extraordinary pains and industry in it, may have a fourth part.

4. That there be a reasonable allowance for under Officers as the Commissioners shall thinke fit.

Whereby these ensuing Benefits will inevitably follow, viz.

1. To the State a far larger advance of the Excise than formerly.

2. To the Trade, the great ones shall not be, so much as formerly, enabled to destroy the inferior sort.

3. That upon no man whatsoever there shall be any oppression or injury to him, but a Commutative justice shall flow equally to all, according to the true intent and meaning of all former Ordinances and Acts [Page] of Parliament in that kind provided.

4. That nothing shall be altered in the former Constitution by Ordinance and Acts of Parliament,

These Inconveniences will certainly fall upon the altering of the Excise from Soap to the Materials.

1. Though it may appear to this Honourable Committee, that whereas there is great quantities of all sorts of Oyle brought into this Common-wealth, the Excise whereof may amount to a considerable sum of money, in Sweet, Whale, Holland, Train, Newland and Pitchard Oyles, a great part of all which, are used for other commodities, then Soap, as Lamps, Curriors, Wool-combers, Stuffe-weavers and Clothiers, upon all or any of which, if you put a greater Excise, you ruine the poor, and undoe the Trades.

2. Tallow is used for severall uses then Soap, as Curriours, Chandlers, and Shipping, in all which there will be far greater difficulties in gathering the Excise, then as it now stands.

3. And for Pot-Ashes, If you shall put any Additional Impost upon them, it will much dis-encourage the Merchants, prejudice both Custome, and Excise, increase the poor, decay Sea-men, and Shipping, and cause great quantities of Ashes to be made here at home, which in fine, you will finde much prejudiciall to this Common-wealth; for in making much, they make bad; and when none was made here, or but few, it rendred this Kingdome as then, in a better condition then now, when so great quantities are made.

For a further and more satisfactorie Answeri, I humbly offer to this honourable Committee these eight Queries following.

Eight Queries, presented to the Honourable Committee for Regulating the Excise, October 23. 1650, in answer the Sope-makers Petition.

[Page]

By John Walker.

1 THat it may please your Honors to observe, whether in all their long Paper, containing to sheets close writ, in answer to our few lines, if they have propounded any thing for the advance of the State, and whether there appear not a greater measure of selfe interest in their proposals, than in ours?

2. That your Honors seriously consider; whether their proposals or ours, tend most to the prejudice of the Common wealth?

3. Whether the altering of the Excise, from the Manufactory of Sope, unto the Materialls; or continuing of it statu quo, will most advantage the Common wealth, in point of Trade, Custome, and Excise?

4. Whether they, or we, appear to have put greater oppression upon the peopl of this Common-wealth, they in giving to the late King 18s. 8d. per Barrel, or we which endevour only the due execution of a legal Imposition of 4s. 8d. per Barrell, to preserve a Common [Page] wealth, according to the true intent and meaning of severall Ordinances, and Acts of Parliament in that kinde provided, to the intent no man should be restrained, no man oppressed, but every maker to pay his proportion, rato pro rato?

5. How these men intend the advance of the Excise, which have already bought up the gratest part of the Ashes in Town, upon the bare supposall of altering it, whereby they might both defraud the State of their due and be able to undersell, and consequently ruine the inferiour sort, that must buy for the future?

6. Whether the East Countrey Merchants did not (upon a Petition formerly by these men presented for this purpose) give a plenarie satisfaction to the House of Commons, that it might not be laid upon Potashes; whereby at that time their designe was laid aside?

7. Whether that part of their Paper be true or false, which Declares, the Pole, Casocks, and Tartars at Peace, wherby (say they) great store of Ashes will be imported; when it is well known to some here, that their difference there is great, and the Wars in that very place, where usually Potashes were made; so that but few or none will come from thence, and so you will seem to put the Excise upon a bare shadow, rather than substance.

8. Whether it will not apparently alter the whole Fabrick of your 7 years buil [...]ing, when almost all Trades may as justly petition as these men, for altering of it from the Manufactory, to the [...], the Clothie [...] to Wool, the Broad Weaver to Yarn and Haire, the Brewers to Malt, the Silk Weaver to [...], [...] so you may, ad infinitum, alter it from the shoulders of [Page] one party to another, if you listen to such men as are never satisfied when they are well, and not contented with any thing but what they contrive themselves, though never so distructive to the Commonwealth.

The Answer that was returned by the Honourable Committee, whereof Colonell George Thompsom hath the Chair, Octob. 23. 1650.

GEntlemen, I am appointed to deliver you the opinion of the Committee, in this businesse. First, that they do not take notice of any part of your Paper, wherein you detract from the proposers, for we find in them matter of profit and advance to the Commonwealth, and must acknowledge them as good Commonwealths men. And to you I say we have perused your Papers and Accounts, and find you in an error; for here we finde, that the advance upon the Materialls, falls short of the Manufactory by 9000 l. and and this when we had a free trade from forraine parts, and now our Seas may be troublesome, and so not so much of the materialls come in, whereby it is possible and probable to be lesse, and if it fell short by so much when Soap made lesse then for the future it is like to doe, when it is doubled; we shall present both to the Parliament, and leave them to determine, more may be said but we shall report it to the House.

FINIS.

Information about this book

Title statement

An ansvver to the sope-makers complaint wherein is clearly demonstrated their scandalous aspersions, and the falacies of their atguments [sic] proved before the honourable committee for regulating the excise, Octob. 23. 1650. As also the proceedings of the proposers and their severall proposals: wherein is found nothing prejudiciall to the Common-wealth; no excise further being further added, no man restrained, no man oppressed, but that every man may make what he can, so he pay his due. In which, such care shall be taken, as may tend to the benefit of the Common-wealth, and the reputation and profit of the trade of the sope-maker of London. By him that is a lover of honesty, and a well-willer to that trade.

Walker, John, 1650-1730.

Edition statement

1650

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Date

2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1).

ID [DLPS]

A67246

ID [STC]

Wing W391B

ID [STC]

ESTC R219915

ID [EEBO-CITATION]

99831362

ID [PROQUEST]

99831362

ID [VID]

35825

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(EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A67246)

Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 35825)

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Source

— An ansvver to the sope-makers complaint wherein is clearly demonstrated their scandalous aspersions, and the falacies of their atguments [sic] proved before the honourable committee for regulating the excise, Octob. 23. 1650. As also the proceedings of the proposers and their severall proposals: wherein is found nothing prejudiciall to the Common-wealth; no excise further being further added, no man restrained, no man oppressed, but that every man may make what he can, so he pay his due. In which, such care shall be taken, as may tend to the benefit of the Common-wealth, and the reputation and profit of the trade of the sope-maker of London. By him that is a lover of honesty, and a well-willer to that trade., Walker, John, 1650-1730..

Extent

14 p.

printed for George Thomson in Chancery Lane,. London :: 1650.. (Signed on p. 9 by John Walker; presumedly = him that is a lover of honesty, and a well-willer to that trade.) (Caption title on p. 10: Propositions made to the grand commissioners of the excise anno Dom. 1650. ..; Caption title on p. 12: Eight queries, presented to the honourable committee for regulating the excise, October 23. 1650. .. By John Walker.) (Possibly in answer to: To the supreme authority the Parliament of the Common-wealth of England; some considerations about the excise of 4s. 8d. per barrell upon sope, humbly offered by the sope-makers of London, who lately presented their petition to your Honors.) (Reproduction of the original in the British Library.)

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