A dialogue between Mr. Prejudice, a dissenting country gentleman, and Mr. Reason, a student in the University being a short vindication of the University from popery and an answer to some objections concerning the D. of Y. Wood, Thomas, 1661-1722. 1682 Approx. 39 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 14 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2013-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 2). A66941 Wing W3408 ESTC R26396 09452259 ocm 09452259 43144

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Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 2, no. A66941) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 43144) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1321:14) A dialogue between Mr. Prejudice, a dissenting country gentleman, and Mr. Reason, a student in the University being a short vindication of the University from popery and an answer to some objections concerning the D. of Y. Wood, Thomas, 1661-1722. 24 p. Printed for T. Sawbridge, London : 1682. Reproduction of original in the Huntington Library.

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A DIALOGUE BETWEEN Mr. PREJƲDICE, A Diſſenting Country Gentleman, AND Mr. REASON, A Student in the Univerſity: BEING A ſhort Vindication of the Ʋniverſity from Popery, and an Anſwer to ſome Objections concerning the D. of Y.

Ars & Academia non habent inimicos praeter ignorantes.

London, Printed for T. Sawbridge, 1682.

HUmbly dedicated to thoſe who ſeek to be Undeceived, and deſire to be Loyal.

By T. W.
A DIALOGUE BETWEEN Mr. PREJƲDICE, A Diſſenting Country Gentleman, AND Mr. REASON, A Student in the Univerſity. Prejudice.

YOU are a Company of Lazy Lord-Danes, Domineering, bold Coxcombs, &c. Crab-Proteſtants, that crawl backwards to Popery, Catts-feet, wherewith the Romiſh Monkeys claw the Proteſtant Religion, &c.—Sbud, you are Heathens, Mahometans, Perſians; whoſe onely Religion is to worſhip the Riſing Sun:—I can eaſily prove you are Papiſts —

Reaſon.

Ay, Sir, if you will prove any thing, I am for you: but what you have ſaid all this while, I take to be nothing elſe, but a Regiment of Rabble Dirt, muſtered and raked up, to oppoſe and beſpatter our Monarch, Truth.

Prejudice.

Well, you ſhall ſee that whom you call your Monarch Truth, I ſhall prove to be an Ʋſurper, Impoſtour, Son of the Whore—and, as I was ſaying before, I ſhall prove you Univerſity men to be Papiſts.

Reaſon.

Come, Sir, now I am reſolved to liſten.

Prejud.

And you ſhall have your own way; It ſhall be in Mode and Figure; for I was once of your Coat, and had the happineſs to underſtand your tricks—Thus, Sir, I ſhall prove it, and that Infallibly.

They that live in Colleges built by Papiſts, are themſelves Papiſts. But you Ʋniverſity men live in Colleges that were built by Papiſts. Tarbox.

'Tis all certainly true, for your Colleges were built either by Cardinals, and you know there be no Proteſtant Cardinals; or elſe by Popiſh Biſhops, or ſome of the Popiſh Layety; and you know, thoſe that are Popiſh are Papiſts; therefore your Colleges were built by Papiſts.

Reaſ.

Ha ha he. I am not angry with your Minor; I declare I am good friends with it; I acknowledge moſt of our Colleges were built by Papiſts: but, Sir, I have a very great Grudge againſt your Major; I deſire you would prove, that they that live in Colleges, that were built by Papiſts, are themſelves Papiſts.

Prejud.

Ha! deny the Major! Why 'tis a Principle: 'Tis agreed upon by all the Country Gentlemen that live within three or four miles of me. I know no one that ever contradicted it, but the ſimple Parſon of the Pariſh, and a few other Nonſenſical fellows—

Reaſ.

Pray, Sir, don't be ſo cholerick—Let me ask you: Were not Cities, Towns, &c. here in England, founded and built before the Reformation?

Prejud.

And that was not quite two hundred year ago; yes, I believe they were; What then?

Reaſ.

Then, I ſuppoſe, they may be built by Popiſh Founders, Popiſh Maſons, &c. for we never heard that the Proteſtant Religion ever came into England before that time: And if ſo, Why may you not as well conclude, that thoſe that live in Cities, Towns, &c. that were founded by Papiſts, are themſelves Papiſts, as thoſe that live in Colleges, built by Papiſts, are Papiſts—Come, Sir, What do you ſay?—

Prejud.

For any thing I know, they may have a Spice of Popery—but if I was certainly aſſured of what you ſay, I would ſet all the Towns on fire about us, as ſoon as I came home—I wonder'd, in the Devil's Name, what made the greateſt part of the Nation ſide with the D of Y.—But, ſuppoſing this is maliciouſly vented forth, becauſe it has the face of an Objection, or not that there is any thing of Truth or Conſequence in it, I am not ſo well ſatisfied as you may think: Have not ſome of you a maintenance from thoſe Popiſh Founders? Are you not the Pope's Penſioners? Pray now, Are you not ſworn to Statutes which were made by thoſe Popiſh Founders? Have not they ſpecified in thoſe Statutes, that you ſhall have Maſs read in your Chapels at ſuch and ſuch times? that you ſhall acknowledge the Pope as Supreme? that you ſhould in every tittle conform to the Church of Rome, &c. or elſe to be turn'd out, and ſuffer utter expulſion? Or, Will you make me believe that there is no ſuch thing, and that Papiſts would erect Societies for men of a different Religion from themſelves, or would allow a maintenance for Heathens, Pagans and Hereticks? This is a nut that you can't crack, Sir, and an Objection that all the Philoſophy in the World cannot ſolve—

Reaſon.

Well, Sir, I ſhall onely deſire to be heard—You having granted, that all Cities, Towns, &c. were founded before the Reformation, and conſequently by Papiſts; we may ſuppoſe that they had their Charters and Cuſtoms conferr'd upon them by Papiſts, confirm'd by a Popiſh Parliament: and in thoſe Charters, &c. ſpecified, that they ſhould be ſubject to the Pope's Authority, and to his Vice-gerents, and that they ſhould conform to the Church of Rome, &c. Now, as the Charters, &c. were corrected, at the coming in of the Proteſtant Religion, by Proteſtant Parliaments; ſo our Statutes, being at firſt conferr'd upon us by Popiſh Founders, confirm'd by a Popiſh Parliament at the coming in of the Proteſtant Religion, were corrected by a Proteſtant Parliament; ſo that the perſon, at his admittance, now ſwears to nothing that is ſinfull or Popiſh, but what is either an indifferent Cuſtom, or conformable to Reaſon, Scripture, and the Church of England, as 'tis by Law eſtabliſhed. Therefore, as you would not argue that all perſons that live in Cities, Towns, &c. are Popiſh, becauſe they had their Charters conferr'd upon them at firſt by Papiſts, ſince they are repealed and corrected by the coming in of Proteſtants; ſo I may preſume that you will not argue that we, that received our Statutes at firſt from Popiſh Founders, are our ſelves Papiſts, ſince the caſe is altogether parallel and the ſame.

Prejud.

But pray, What can you ſay to clear your ſelves, when 'tis known that you have maintenance from Popiſh Founders, and are the Pope's Penſioners?

Reaſon.

Pray, Sir, let me ask you again; Suppoſe your Great Grandfather was a Papiſt, and after his death had left his whole Eſtate to your Grandfather, that was a Proteſtant: your Grandfather dies, and leaves it to your Father that was a Proteſtant, and at laſt it comes to you as being next Heir; Would you not think people fools, that ſhould conclude that you are a Papiſt, and the Pope's Penſioner, becauſe you enjoy and have your maintenance from the Eſtate that was once your Popiſh Great-Grandfather's? See Sir, if the Caſe is not the ſame here too.

Prejud.

Well, I find you would perſuade me to any thing in the World; but you ſhall find that ſome are wiſer than ſome.

Reaſon.

The whole buſineſs in ſhort is this; Our Founders were good, honeſt, pious Men in their way, but a purer Religion being brought into the Nation, it was thought fit to reform them: as (I am confident you will grant it) a Chriſtian Man, having the Care and Government of an Infidel's Child committed to him, will think himſelf bound in Conſcience to educate it in the Chriſtian Religion.

Prejud.

But, pray, what can you ſay to the Images over your College Gates and in other places; your young Boies painted with Wings at their Backs over your Altars; your Braſs Candleſticks; your Saints painted in Glaſs Windows? &c. I believe you will perſuade me that Idolatry is not Popery anon; but, as I ſaid before, ſome wiſer than ſome.

Reaſon.

Why we ſay juſt as much to them as you ſay to the Pictures that hang up in your Parlour: they are onely ſuffered to be there for decency and ornament ſake—But, to deal plainly with you, I confeſs their firſt erection was merely ſuperſtitious, idolatrous, &c. but why they may not be permitted now, for the ornament of God's Houſe, and for civil and hiſtorical uſes, not onely lawfully and decently, but even profitably, [there being no apparent danger of Superſtition;]B. Sanderſon. or why things either in their firſt erection, or by ſucceeding abuſe ſuperſtitious, may not be profitably continued, if the Superſtition be aboliſhed; the moſt zealous, hot-headed, profound Diſſenter could never give any thing that was like a ſubſtantial Reaſon. But if that ſhould be the Reaſon, becauſe they were once ſuperſtitious, not onely Pictures, Croſſes, Images; but moſt of our Hoſpitals, Schools and Colleges (which I hope now you do not think) ay and Pariſh Churches too muſt down: and ſo the hatred of Idolatry ſhould but uſher in licentious Sacrilege, contrary to the Apoſtle Rom. 2. 22. Thou that abhorreſt Idols, committeſt thou Sacrilege?

Prejud.

Sir, I don't intend to be perſuaded the Superſtition is aboliſhed: Have I not ſeen your Graveſt Divines among you, at their entrance into the Church, caſt their Eyes upon the Glaſs Windows, bow towards the Altars, worſhip the Pictur'd Saints, and make Leggs to the Brazen Candleſticks?

Reaſon.

All this is ſaid upon the account of Bowing towards the Altar. As for caſting their Eyes upon the Painted Glaſs Windows, &c. 'tis a mere fancy of yours; if you would pull out that Beam of prejudice out of your own Eye, you would ſee and underſtand more clearly: You would ſee that we (the Sons of the Church of England) profeſs an invincible Hatred to Idolatry; you would underſtand that we are throughly ſenſible, that thoſe Images have Eyes, and ſee not; Ears, and hear not; &c. do not, cannot regard our Worſhip: That we ſcorn to offer the Sacrifice of Prayer to a Creature that is beneath us; that none can anſwer our Petitions, but a God that is glorious, immortal, eternal, incomprehenſible, &c. If our God was nothing but a Picture, &c. or Wood or Stone, I my ſelf would turn Diſſenter; I proteſt I would turn Atheiſt, own no other ſuperiour or equal to me, but my ſelf. But as to the buſineſs of Bowing to the Altar; there is nothing of Idolatry in the Caſe: 'Tis onely a civil Reſpect to the Place, upon the ſuppoſal that God is more immediately preſent there where the moſt ſacred and Solemneſt Parts of Religion are perform'd: No more Idolatrous than when you ſtand bare in the Preſence Chamber.

But if there be a Queſtion, Whether there is any Place that deſerves ſo much Reſpect, is nothing at all to our Purpoſe: For if there is, Bowing to the Altar were nothing elſe but a too-forward, pious, ceremonious Miſtake, having nothing at all of Sinfulneſs in it, nothing at all of Idolatry.

Prejud.

But pray, Sir, Is not your Liturgie the Maſs-Book tranſlated into Engliſh? Is not the Surplice, Organs, &c. uſed at this very day among the Papiſts?

Reaſon.

Our Liturgie is no more the Maſs-Book than your Directory is. This is onely a Pill that is thruſt into the Mouth of the Vulgar, being charg'd firſt of all, to ſhut their eyes, and to ſwallow it down whole. It has been often profered, that if any of your Party will prove any one paſſage in our Liturgie contrary to Scripture, it ſhall be preſently taken into conſideration, and corrected to his ſatisfaction. As to the Surplice, Organs, &c. they are things totally indifferent, neither morally good nor evil: They ſeem at once to heighten Devotion, and to be a ſolemn Ornament and Decency to the Church. We muſt conform to them, becauſe Authority has commanded it, leſt by an ill-natur'd Peeviſhneſs, we, reſiſting the Ordinance of God, plunge our ſelves into manifeſt Sins. If you had been in another Country, it would not have been ſinfull, if you did not conform to the Church of England in matter of Ceremonies; but ſeeing you are under her Government, and ſhe commands you to doe ſo and ſo; you, by reſiſting her Authority, do incur God's Diſpleaſure and (without Repentance and the Prevention of Mercy) eternal Damnation.

Prejud.

Surplice and Organs, &c. are uſed among the Papiſts; Muſt we conform to things that are Popiſh?

Reaſon.

I ſee the very word Popiſh frights you. I believe 'twould ſeem a ſtrange Paradox to you, if I ſhould affirm, that ſome things in the Roman Church are truly religious and commendable. Pray, Sir, underſtand a-right: Our Anceſtours once very unhappily fell a-ſleep; ſuffer'd Tares to grow up with the Wheat; but when it pleaſed God to awaken 'em, each man beſtirr'd himſelf to root out what was evil; ſuffering the good onely to ſtand, and expect the wonted Bleſſings from him, who firſt planted and water'd it. I tell you they all once were Papiſts; but at laſt, finding their Errour, they flew from every thing that was ſuperſtitious and ſinfull; carrying onely things righteous and innocent with them. But they happened to have a ſort of zealous, hot-headed, quarrelſome Companions, (that by and by ſeemed to ſtrike off towards Geneva) who would by all means perſuade 'em, to throw away all or elſe moſt of their Carriage; and their onely Argument was, that they were Popiſh, Popiſh; yet acknowledging ſtill, that thoſe things they had with them were innocent and righteous. Nay, they ſay, One Fellow (whether he were mad or drunk they could not poſſitively tell) mov'd, that they ſhould caſt away Prayers and Preaching, and every thing that was like Religion, becauſe 'twas Popiſh, Popiſh: but ſome of his Party deſired him to ſay nothing of thoſe at preſent; they would obtain theſe ſlight requeſts firſt, and conſider of the reſt hereafter. And really, if becauſe they were Popiſh, Popiſh, were a ſufficient Reaſon, they might as well have diſown'd all Religion as the Surplice and Organs, &c. I believe, you would think a Romiſh piece of Mony not true Silver, becauſe it had Caeſar's or Anti-chriſt's Inſcription. If we embrace Popiſh Superſtition, we are much to be blam'd; but you, nor the greateſt prejudic'd Perſon in the World, can ſee any hurt in Truth and Goodneſs, though Popery doth own it.

Prejud.

Truly, the Surplice and Organs, &c. as we uſe them, may be indifferently good, but, hang it, they are Popiſh, Popiſh, that ſticks in my Gizzard.

Reaſon.

In ſhort, We are Reformers of Popery; We have pick'd out the Good and left the Bad; We obſerve a medium between Popery and Fanaticiſm; We are reſolv'd not to be too finically, nor too slovenly religious.

Prejud.

But hearken, Sir; When I ſwear to Conform to the Liturgie, I am to aſſent and conſent to every thing that is in it, to every point and ſyllable, to every rite and ceremony, to every page and line, &c. The Almanack in the Common-prayer, that was printed this year, ſaies, Febr. hath 29 daies, and, in truth, it hath but 28. Can I ſwear aſſent and conſent to this? You contradict your ſelves; you will deny the Infallibility of Pope and Councils; and yet you will require aſſent and conſent to a book of humane compoſition, as ſhall ſuppoſe it to be infallible. For, ſo the Declaration ſuppoſes, that there is not the leaſt poſſible miſtake in the whole Book of Common-prayer, but that it is as infallible as the Bible, infallible, as if God himſelf had ſpoken it. Now, if any wiſe man will conform to this, I will give you leave to—

Reaſon.

You talk very irrationally. Is it not deſired in the Preface to the Common-prayer-book that there ſhould be allowed a juſt and favourable Conſtruction to all humane Writings, &c. which certainly ſuppoſes ſome miſtakes? You are onely deſired to ſwear aſſent and conſent to the Subſtance of every thing in that Book, that you do not hold that any thing therein is repugnant to the Word of God: that every thing therein (as to the Exerciſe of Religion) may be lawfully conform'd to. There is no one deſires you ſhould ſwear that February hath this year 28 or 29 daies. We our ſelves might as well have quarrell'd, and continued a Diviſion till now, whether we ſhould have followed the Salisbury, or the York, Lincoln, Hereford, Bangor way of ſaying or ſinging our Prayers, as you, whether you ſhould conform, or aſſent and conſent to the Act of Uniformity. 'Tis ill nature that governs you. And (becauſe I cannot expreſs my ſelf otherwiſe at preſent) you, Salamander like, live and enjoy your ſelves in the fire of Contention.

Prejud.

I believe, Sir, you fanſie that you have very conciſely freed your ſelves from being Papiſts; but I ſhall give; as they are more received, ſo more cloſer Arguments preſently; and, I queſtion not but you will then find, that you are run upon the Pikes

Reaſon.

Let's hear what you can ſay.

Prejud.

'Tis to prove, as I have intended all this while, that you Univerſity men are Papiſts. I and my ſelf have already concluded it.

They that rail againſt the True Proteſtants are Papiſts. But you Ʋniverſity men rail againſt the True Proteſtants, call'em Presbyterian Bitches. Tarbox, You are Papiſts.

O ho, Sir, Do you begin to ſtare—Come, take the other too, becauſe you have no liking to this.

They that ſay the D. of Y. is the next heir to the Crown are Papiſts.

But you Ʋniverſity men ſay the D. of Y. is the next heir to the Crown.

Ay, you ſay and ſwear you will fight for him, throw your lives and fortunes at his feet: So bewitching, ſuch a deviliſh Religion is Popery—

Reaſon.

Good Sir, not ſo faſt. I can give one Anſwer to both theſe Arguments as you call 'em. But as to the Major of the firſt, They that rail againſt True Proteſtants are Papiſts—I ſuppoſe you mean, by True Proteſtants, the Presbyterians, Non-conformiſts to the Church of England, though the word does not import it. 'Twas onely jeſtingly given to you at firſt, and now you have the confidence to take it in earneſt. So that the Propoſition is, Thoſe that rail againſt the Presbyterians are Papiſts—Pray, Why cannot they be Anabaptiſts, Quakers, &c. For, truly, I believe they have almoſt as great an hatred to you. But, you will ſay, Quakeriſm, Anabaptiſm, &c. is Jeſuitiſm, the Raies of the Whore, hatched by the warmth of Prieſts and Jeſuits, &c. And, certainly, ſo is Presbytery too, as hath been learned, demonſtrated and made manifeſt by the Pen, and by the late Rebellions of the armed Brethren in Scotland. But, I ſuppoſe, you mean all thoſe to be Papiſts who aſſert the Succeſſion of the D. of Y. and who, chiefly upon this account, do rail againſt the Presbyterians. To this I ſhall anſwer, (as being directly againſt both your Arguments) granting that they rail againſt and oppoſe the Presbyterians as much as they can, (which, I think, every wiſe man would doe, when he ſees them reſolv'd to play that miſerable Game of Forty one over again:) Granting that they ſtand up for the D. of Y. who is a Papiſt, (which at beſt is but a ſurmiſe, and which no one could ever poſſitively prove) yet it does not follow at all, that they are Papiſts, or any way Popiſhly inclin'd. And thus I ſhall prove it—

Prejud.

I e'en long thou ſhould'ſt doe it. Why then I have been in the dark all this while; but if thou bring'ſt me into a clearer light, or makeſt me underſtand things better than I doe; I will aſſure you, 'twill be altogether unexpected to me—

Reaſon.

I muſt tell you again, that there is a medium between Popery and Presbytery, and that is the Church of England as it is by Law eſtabliſhed. Now, ſeeing Presbytery is its great Enemy, it will be no wonder if 'tis oppoſed by her: no wonder if Popery is oppoſed too, being as great an Enemy on the other hand. The truth ont is, we and the Papiſts do unite in conſenting for a legal Succeſſion, (and this is all, or more than you do deſire) yet, for all this, it does not follow we are Papiſts. They would have a legal Succeſſion, to promote ſome ſiniſter Ends, and they would have no legal Succeſion too, if 'twould ſerve their turns: They think now this is the beſt means to bring in their Religion; that now is the time to erect a Throne, that they may Lord it once again over our Conſciences; that they may make uſe of the hearts of their Friends, and hearts and necks of their Enemies. But we doe it from Reaſon, Loyalty and Conſcience: If he were Jew or Turk, if he would ſerve our Turns or not ſerve our Turns he ſhould inherit. As we reverence the Lord of the Vineyard, ſo we reverence his Son; and are reſolv'd to ſurrender it to him, leſt we our ſelves ſhould be caſt out. I mean to be caſt out in a ſpiritual ſenſe; as for what is temporal; as for our lives and fortunes, it muſt and ſhall be ſurrendered; neither ſhall we try to redeem it with our Conſciences, or to ſave our skins proſtitute our very Souls. We know that we are engaged to him and to his poſterity with an Oath, and that no power can abſolve us.

Prejud.

You will grant then, that he might be put by with good Policy, but not with a good Conſcience. But will you make me believe that all thoſe roaring Dammee's, who aſſert his right, doe it out of Conſcience?

Reaſon.

I muſt ingeniouſly confeſs (if there be any ſuch) they doe it chiefly out of an hatred to Presbytery, hatred to an Anarchy of confuſion, &c. Though wicked, yet they are, for the generalty, men of Eſtates, and do not care for change; whereas on your ſide are none but diſcontented, pittifull, mean, ſordid wretches, that can find no other way to make their fortunes. The diſcontented Cit pines, becauſe he is ſaid to be one of the Commonalty: will venture his Neck to be a Gentleman: would fain be in a place of great Honour, though he look'd never ſo awkardly. Each Lowſie. Mechanical Colledge is not ſatisfied, unleſs you tell him, he ſhall be a Colonel. Colledge Tryal. The Outed Non-conformiſt preaches Snot, Snivil, ſighs and groans, becauſe his Eyes are not bleſſed with a fat Living. But as to your ſaying that Succeſſion might be cut off out of good Policy, though not Conſcience, I think really you are very much miſtaken. Suppoſing you cut it off, to hinder Popery, &c. and ſet up one of your own; (though we know, that ſetting up another, is but a mere miſt rais'd, that you may more ſecurely play Deeper and more Helliſh Tricks;) Why the Independent, Fifth monarchy men, Quakers, &c. may doe the ſame, and ſhew you your own Maxim for it. And this would be your good Policy, and thus would Government be preſerv'd, beſides ten thouſand greater and more ſevere Inconveniences to ſupport it.

Prejud.

But, Sir, as to matter of Conſcience, we, in truth, ſtand upon that. I'll maintain, that we ought in Conſcience to oppoſe the D. of Y. This I can prove from a principle of Reaſon or Morality, and from Scripture it ſelf.

Object. Firſt, from a principle of Reaſon or Morality, which is this: Of two Evils the leaſt is to be choſen. Now the caſe here is thus; We muſt either keep the D. of Y. from his right, or elſe, by his coming in, we muſt ſuffer Idolatrous Popery, (a Religion which God abhorreth) Tyranny and Arbitrary Power, Hereſie and Schiſm, Murthers, Maſſacres, &c. and utter Deſtruction to break in upon us. Now, I ſay, to prevent all this, we ought to oppoſe the D. of Y. cut him off, as being a commiſſion of the leſſer evil.

Reaſon.

You miſtake, and confound Matters ſtrangely.

Anſw. Pray underſtand: Evil is conſidered two waies: It is either Evil of Pain, or Evil of Sin: Now this Principle of Reaſon is underſtood onely of Evils of Pain; ſo that here onely it holds good: As ſuppoſe 'twas put to the choice of a Diſſenter, for Diſturbing the Government, whether he would be hang'd or ſuffer a jirking at the Whipping-poſt: Why, if this Sentence came into his head, Of two Evils (ſcil. of Pain) the leaſt is to be choſen; unleſs he were mightily given to a ſpiritual Reſignation, he would accept of the latter. So that you are extremely out of the way, if you apply it to Evils of Sin. If it is ſaid, è Malis minimum in Evils of Pain; it is ſaid è Malis nullum in Evils of Sin, that is, we may chuſe the leaſt Evil in Evils of Pain; but if two Evils of Sin are propounded to us, we muſt rather die than commit either of them.

But perhaps you may object, and ſay, ſuppoſing he is neceſſitated to commit one of 'em; as ſuppoſe a man ſhould make a Vow to murther his Brother, he muſt neceſſarily either break his Vow, or commit Murther.

To this I anſwer, That 'tis impoſſible he ſhould be neceſſitated to ſin. As for your Example; He may break his Vow, and commit no ſin; for the Sin was in making that Vow; not in breaking it: he does not commit the leſſer ſin; but looſes the leſſer bond. Breaking of it is far from being a Sin; it being a neceſſary Duty and Branch of Repentance due for the former Raſhneſs in making it; becauſe a hurtfull Vow is rather to be broke than kept. 'Tis onely ex peccato, and not Peccatum. Thus you may abſolve your ſelves from the Solemn League and Covenant, and commit no Sin, but repent of the firſt taking it. The continuance of that unlawfull Oath makes new Sins. But, to come cloſer to the matter, your drawing from this Principle, Of two Evils the leſſer is to be choſen, that we muſt rather keep the D. of Y. from his right than that Popery ſhould break in upon us, is very irrational: for the one (ſcil. the keeping the D. of Y. from his right) is an Evil of Sin; the other (ſuffering Popery to come in upon us) in this caſe, is onely an Evil of Pain and Puniſhment: In the latter there is no Evil committed againſt God, as in the former, but the ſuffering an Evil that God had inflicted upon us. An Evil of Puniſhment is no Evil to Chriſtians: They, by ſuffering a Crown of Thorns to be put upon their Heads here, may purchaſe one that is glorious and immortal hereafter. I ſuppoſe you would mean, It is lawfull to commit ſmall evil, that a great good may come. But this is directly contrary to the Apoſtle. If we ought not to commit a ſmall officious Lye (according to all Reformed Divines) for the Converſion of Souls, for the Peace of the Church, for the Redemption of the whole World, for the greateſt Glory of God; how much leſs ought we to commit Perjury, invert the Order of Juſtice to ſave Lives that are inconſiderable, or hinder a temporal Tyranny. In ſhort, If the D. of Y. had ten thouſand little Queen Maries in his belly; If he is the right Heir, (we being ſworn to Lawfull Succeſſours,) he ought in no wiſe, and upon no account to be put by or deprived of his Inheritance.

Prejud.

Well, you make me ſtill believe any thing in the World. But granting I have err'd in applying this Principle of Reaſon, as I call'd it, I ſhall nevertheleſs prove it from Scripture, that we ought in Conſcience to oppoſe the D. of Y. if he is a Papiſt.

Obj. 1. We ought to ſmite and oppoſe Idolaters, to be zealous for God, our Zeal will juſtifie us. We ought to follow the juſt Fact of Phinees, Numb. 25. who, that he might ſtay the People from Idolatry, executed Vengeance upon Zimri, a Prince of a great houſe: being but a private man and no Magiſtrate.

Obj. 2. Then conſult Numb. 17. and you ſhall find that the man or woman that is convicted of Idolatry ſhall be brought forth, and ſtoned with Stones till they die. And a great deal of reaſon for it.

Obj. 3. And in the ſame Chapter you ſhall find that God ſpeaking ſaith, From among thy Brethren (that is, one of thine houſe, one of thy Religion) ſhalt thou ſet King over thee, and thou ſhalt not ſet a Stranger over thee, which is not thy Brother, (a Stranger, as the margin explains it,) leſt he bring thee to Idolatry. 'Tis very plain. And if you will make it manifeſt that I am now in an Errour, I will ſtand up with Tooth and Nail for the D. of Y. drink his Health, throw up my Cap, and conform to the Church of England immediately.

Reaſon.

Well, Sir, as to what you ſay firſt, That you ought to be zealous for God, that your Zeal will excuſe you, that you ought to follow the juſt Fact of Phinees.

Anſw. &c. to the 1. Obj. I anſwer, That you ought to be zealous for God in a good cauſe, not in a bad one; that your Zeal can then juſtifie you, not otherwiſe. And as to the Fact of Phinees, &c. I anſwer, That 'tis the opinion of ſome, that you ought no more to imitate it than David's Murther or Adultery, &c. for 'tis a Queſtion whether he did well or no? But we will grant he did well, becauſe he was commended by God himſelf in the ſame Chapter. But what then? Shall this juſtifie you? How do you know but that he did it by the command of the Magiſtrate, or was a Magiſtrate himſelf? But if neither, thus I ſhall anſwer you, That men of Heroical Spirits and Gifts, ſuch as were David, Sampſon, Phinees, &c. eſpecially at ſuch a time as they were imployed for the Service of Almighty God; were exempt from the Common Rules of Life, and did many things with a ſecret motion of a powerfull Spirit, which Motion of the Spirit was as good to them as a ſpecial Command from God's mouth. But theſe acts ought not to be followed by others, without a particular and certain aſſurance of the like Inſtinct. But if any of you ſhould pretend to this Motion of the Spirit, we will tell you, as our Saviour did his Diſciples, (who had more reaſon to pretend to it than any of you,) with indignation, that you know not what manner of ſpirit you are of.

Anſw. to 2. Obj. As to that paſſage Numb. 17. That the Idolater ſhould be ſtoned till he die; I tell you it cannot be applied to our caſe. 'Tis ſpoken to Jews, and not to Chriſtians. 'Twas a mere Ceremonie. We ſee the Adulterer, in Deut. ch. 22. v. 22. puniſh'd with Death; in the Goſpel, John the 8th. Chriſt delivering her. But ſuppoſing the next Succeſſour to the Crown is an Idolater, and the King or Magiſtrate will not execute this upon him, (as in truth being not at all bound to it,) Shall private men uſurp his Authority, and take upon them to reform what is amiſs? They may as well eſtabliſh Laws, raiſe Powers, adminiſter Juſtice, execute Malefactours, or doe any other thing the Magiſtrate ſhould doe and would not, which if it were once granted, every body ſeeth, the end could be no other but Confuſion of Church and State.

As to that paſſage, From among thy Brethren ſhalt thou ſet a King over thee, and thou ſhalt not ſet a Stranger over thee, which is not thy Brother, &c. I anſwer again, 'Tis ſpoken to Jews, and not to Chriſtians: but if that will not doe; I ſay it is onely a Foretelling, and not a Command, as may be ſeen by the 15th verſe, whom the Lord thy God ſhall chuſe; ſo it was afterwards that Saul and David were anointed by Samuel, and Solomon by Nathan. Well, but if this neither can doe, I ſay, that this Law is concerning a Voluntary Election of a King, the Kingdom not being hereditary till after Solomon: ſo that this Text maketh nothing againſt us; yea, in truth it maketh for us; for by Brethren is underſtood the next in Kin; ſo that if the D. of Y. is next in Kin, he muſt, by this Text, neceſſarily inherit. Male hoc Zelotae eo trahebant, quaſi externis Regibus parere non liceret. Lex agit de voluntaria electione, non de eo quod indixit neceſſitas, ſaies Grotius upon the place.

Prejud.

Truly, Sir, you have given good plauſible Interpretations to theſe Arguments; but I am reſolv'd not to be convinc'd; and ſo, I believe, we had as good break off.

Reaſon.

I wiſh, Sir, I could at once overcome your ignorance and ill-nature. 'Tis a very eaſie matter to anſwer all thoſe Arguments which ignorant or miſtaken men can bring againſt us. But, if you pleaſe, you may ſuſpend your Judgment, if you cannot better inform it. The imputation of Popery is very unwelcome to us. Pray think, that we, the Sons of the Church of England, worſhip God in Purity, Spirit and Truth: That we pray for the Converſion of poor deluded Souls: and that, as we repreſent our Saviour crucified between two theives, viz. Popery and Fanaticiſm; ſo that we have Charity to pray that God would make uſe of an extraordinary Mercy, and carry you both along with us into Paradiſe.

FINIS.