A vindication of Scripture and ministery in a rejoynder to a reply not long since published by Thomas Speed ... : wherein sundry Scriptures are explained, divers questions (relating to these times) discussed, and the truth asserted against the exceptions of papists and Quakers : whereunto is adjoyned a postscript reflecting upon and returning answer to divers passages in Thomas Speed his last pamphlet / by William Thomas ...

A vindication of Scripture and ministery in a rejoynder to a reply not long since published by Thomas Speed ... : wherein sundry Scriptures are explained, divers questions (relating to these times) discussed, and the truth asserted against the exceptions of papists and Quakers : whereunto is adjoyned a postscript reflecting upon and returning answer to divers passages in Thomas Speed his last pamphlet / by William Thomas ...

Table of contents

Title page

The several Heads of this Rejoynder.

The Epistle to the Christian and considerate READER.

A VINDICATION OF Scriptures and Ministry. IN A REJOINDER TO A REPLY, published by Thomas Speed, Merchant in Bristol.

Of Quakers quaking.

VVhether Scripture be the Saints Rule.

Of Ministers receiving Tythes.

Of Infants Baptism.

It comes now to be examined whether the Scriptures be the ground of faith.

Of the word Sacrament.

Of the Ministry, and calling of Ministers.

Of Imposition of hands.

Of Calling to the civill Magistrate, for the punishing of the open enemies of Religion.

Of Christian Liberty.

A Defence of the Ministry.

We are not justified by a righteousness within.

A Postscript: A little to acquaint the Reader with some passages published by Thomas Speed in a late Pamphlet, Entituled (I know not with how good sense, I am sure with little truth) The Guilty covered Clergy man unvailed.

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A VINDICATION OF Scripture and Ministery: In a Rejoynder to a Reply not long since published by Thomas Speed, formerly (but unsutably) Merchant in the City of Bristol, and Preacher; lately (but more sadly) Merchant and QVAKER.

Wherein sundry Scriptures are explained, divers Questions (relating to these times) discussed, and the truth asserted against the exceptions of PAPISTS and QVAKERS.

Whereunto is adjoyned a Postscript, reflecting upon, and returning Answer to, divers passages in Thomas Speed his last Pamphlet.

By William Thomas Minister of the Gospel at Ubley.

Isa. 8.20.

To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Ephes. 4.11, 12, 13.

— He gave some — Pastours, and Teachers, For the perfecting of the Saints, the work of the Ministery, for the edifying of the body of Christ — Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and in the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ.

Ignat. Epist. ad Ephes.

Si autem ii qui humanas domos corrumpunt, morte plectuntur, quanto graviores poenas dabunt qui moliuntur Christi doctrinam adulterare, pro quâ crucem & mortem sustinuit Dominus Jesus unicus Dei Filius?

London, Printed for Edward Thomas, and are to be sold at his house in Green-Arbour, 1657.

The several Heads of this Rejoynder.

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1. QUakers Quaking detected and refuted.

2. That the Scriptures are the Saints rule, is proved.

3. Ministers taking of Tithes justified.

4. A general Scripture command for Infant-Baptism asserted.

5. That the Scriptures are the ground of faith is more largely maintained.

6. That life is to be had in Scripture is manifested.

7. A brief account of the word Sacrament.

8. The Ministery, the Calling of Ministers (together with Imposition of Hands in Ordination) Vindicated, and more fully spoken to.

9. Calling to the Civil Magistrate for punishing the open enemies of Religion, declared from Scripture.

10. The point of Conscience-liberty discussed.

11. Something concerning inward and common light observed and opened.

12. Our Justification is declared to be by a righteousness without us, not by a righteousness within us.

The Epistle to the Christian and considerate READER.

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READER,

COncerning the rise of the present business between my self and Thomas Speed, be pleased to receive this relation; About two years ago or more, I did (upon importunity) give way to Mr. Speeds Preaching in my charge; I confess it was not without reluctancy, because he had been so long a publick Teacher, and yet no Minister; that is, not called to that office in the way of Christ; yet I knew not but that he might (in a further time) be so called, he being in such a tendency to that Office: but while there were hopes of him that he might do some good service in the Church of Christ, there comes newes that he had joyned himself to those whom they call Quakers. The report at first was very strange, but when it was found to be so indeed, it troubled me much that I should be induced to admit one to Preach in my place, so poorly principled, and of so inconstant a spirit, as to close with such a company, and be wafted over suddenly to so senseless a Sect.

Hereupon, after many debates with my self, I resolved to write unto him about the Quakers way; for I had not reason then to think him to be a Scorner, but rather hoped that some good might have been done upon him, and that he was not so far gone and hampered in Satans snare, but that possibly he might, by a milde admonition, be recovered out of it; at least, I did not know but that there might be so much ingenuity left, as to return unto a calm and friendly Letter, a fair and civill Answer. But how far he was from any such humane frame, his rough and Quaker-like Reply to my first Letter, did more then sufficiently manifest. Yet because in [Page] that his first return (amongst a great deal of rudeness) there was something that looked like reason. I wrote my second Letter in way of Answer to his first; but that high spirit of his that could not receive an admonition in my first Letter, could not bear an answer in my second, but must needs tumultuate in Print; and by this means our Contestation is come into publick view. In which regard it might have been satisfactory to have published the Letters that passed between us; but being that they were so large as that it would be tedious to print and peruse them; and his Reply (together with this Rejoynder) will present (in good part) the substance of them, therefore I have resolved to publish no more but only my first brief Letter; whereby it will appear (I think) how little cause this angry Antagonist had to fall into so hot a combate. For this was the Letter:

Mr. Speed,

THough my acquaintance with you hath not been much, yet since (by providence) there hath been some, and that also a Pulpit-acquaintance, by your Preaching not long since in my place and charge; I presume you will not take it ill if I shall a little more then ordinarily impart my self unto you upon the report that I have heard from divers (who know you, and are like to know your way) of your closing (though how far I know not) with those that own the name of Quakers: I have read but one of their Books, viz. The fierie Darts of the Devill quenched; but therein I find enough to make it strange that any that hath known and owned, much more that hath held forth Gods Scripture way, should have any correspondence with them in theirs.

1. For the Scriptures, though they do not professedly reject them; yet really they do, whilest they hold and witness;

1. That they are not the rule of Saints, contrary to these Scriptures, Gal. 6.16. Jam. 2.8. Deut. 5.32, 33. 2 Pet. 1.19.

2. That they are not the ground of faith, contrary to Joh. 20.31. Rom. 16.26 Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, Rom. 10.17. So that the word of God was [Page] ever the ground of Faith, even before it was written as now it is (for though it were not written, yet it was revealed) And now it is written, Christ directs us to look for life in the Scriptures, because they testifie of him, to wit, as the person on whom our faith should rest for salvation, Joh. 5.39, -46, 47.

2. For the Sacrament of the Lords Supper. They acknowledge a command of Christ for it, to stand for a time and no more; when Christ tels us his death is to be shewed therein till he come, 1 Cor. 11.26.

3. For the Ministery. As they deny there was any true Church since the Apostles dayes, (which is as though they should say, Christ hath had no body upon earth since the Apostles dayes, for the Church is his body) So they deny any Ministers, unlesse called as the Apostles were; when we finde Titus ordaining Elders in an ordinary way, Tit. 2.5. and that Christ (the Apostles and extraordinary officers being gone) hath appointed Pastors and Teachers for the work of the Ministery, and the edifying of Saints to the end of the world, Mat. 28.19, 20. Ephes. 4.11, 12, 13.

4. They assert, That the light within leads to Justification those that are taught by it; when the Scripture saith, that We are justified freely by the grace of God, through the redemption and righteousness of Jesus Christ, which is not within us, but without us.

Now all these things (that I may speak of no more) being so contrary to the will of God revealed in his Word, let me seriously advise you (and while I say so, I think of that great God to whom shortly we must be accountable, and with whom there is no trifling) I say, let me seriously advise you, to take heed of the society and wayes of such men. Remember and read what a strict rule the Apostle gives us concerning them that bring not right Doctrine, 2 Joh. 10, 11. God hath given you ability to do good, take heed, I beseech you, of losing your self, or endangering others in a way of errour; Who knowes, if a man shall give way to opinions so dangerous as these are, how far he may go; yea, how far God in his just judgement may suffer him to run on in a soul-destroying way? My intent in these lines is to tender a Christian admonition [Page] for your spiritual safety. As it is only between you and me, so I desire you to keep it to your self, to prevent further trouble and contestation. The Lord follow it with his blessing. I rest,

Yours in Christ, W. T.

Now considering what and how this un-malleable man hath written since. It may (perhaps) seem strange to some (or to many) that I should bestow so much time and pains upon an Adversary whose ability and reputation reacheth not so far (as one would think) as to win upon Christians who have any skill in Religion, or bear good will to the wayes of God. And I confesse that such apprehensions have often given a check to my proceedings. But yet (on the other side) being cald to by name, to speak in this cause and controversie, I have been carried on so far as (after the publishing of my late Answer to his Epistle) to Rejoyn also to the body of his Book; and that for these Reasons.

1. Because it is the duty and safety of Gods people to cry for, and against the abominations of the [...] Ezek. 9.4. Isa. 58.1. Ezek. 20.4.

2. Because it is the duty of a Minister to do that sincerely by his utmost endevour, which God will do effectually by his power, that is, to magnifie the Law and word of God, and make it honourable, Isa. 42.21.

3. As the servants of the Lord ought so to live and carry themselves as that the Ministery may not be blamed justly 2 Cor. 6.3.: So to plead vigorously according to all the strength that God hath given them, that it may not be blamed unjustly; whereof the Apostle Paul is an eminent pattern, who is still arguing for his Apostleship, that the efficacy of it might not fall with the estimation.

4. Because it is too evident by sad experience in these injudicious, licentious, and Apostatising times, that many professing Religion, are more caught and carried away by the subtilty and sophistry of erroneous men, then kept or established by those [Page] demonstrations of the Spirit of God; which they do or might receive from sound and Orthodox Teachers; which (though it be a thing exceedingly to be lamented, yet) is not so much to be wondered at if we consider how few [...]here be in the Church that belong to God, to whom alone it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, Mat. 11.13. with Mark. 4.11. and withall, how Satan and the world without, and a world of corruption within, helps the Seducer to do his work; whereas (on the other side) none but they that are transformed by the renewing of their mind, are in a capacity to prove what is that good, that acceptable and perfect will of God, Rom. 12.2.

5. Even they that have grace want growth, and are not so wise but that they may be bewitched, Gal. 3.1. therefore these things are written (as with a desire to undeceive them (if possible) that are already entangled so) with a purpose to arme those weaker ones that are yet uncorrupted, that they may be stedfast and constant in the right wayes of God. Hereupon I have been more large in opening some Scriptures, as intending not only to Answer this Replyer, (which might be much more briefly done) but to inform less expert Christians, who for want of a right understanding of Gods word, are exposed to the wiles and wils of seducing men. For the same reason also I use more words and circumlocutions then are needful for, or grateful to, men of more understanding, as knowing my self to be a debtor to those that have lesse.

After all this, I can truly and sincerely say (notwithstanding any sharper expressions wrested from me) that it would be a singular comfort to me, if this sometimes hopeful person (with whom I have had so much to do) might be brought yet back again 1 King. 28.37.; And what cannot that God do, and what cannot that God undo, that puld Paul out of the hands of Satan, who was so long educated, and so deeply principled in a damnable belief, that he ought to do many things contrary to the Name of Jesus of Nazareth Act. 26.9.; and that it was his duty to do hell service? O that that God (whose free grace none can fathom) would be pleased to put to his hand in the like miserable case, for the like eminent mercy! But if that may not be (wherein I confesse I am at a stand, but knowing from [Page] whence my first writing to him arose) will not despaire) yet I shall account it a great happiness, and an high reward of my poor pains, if any one or other may be won from, or kept from such pernicious wayes.

However, according to my time and talent, I have done mine endevour, which (God assisting) shall be followed with the earnest prayer of him who much needs, and much desires the prayers of the generation of Seekers; and in whose heart it is to approve himself

A lover of every true lover of the truth of God in these holiness-pretending, and truth-deserting dayes, William Thomas.

A VINDICATION OF Scriptures and Ministry. IN A REJOINDER TO A REPLY, published by Thomas Speed, Merchant in Bristol.

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I shall begin with his Epistle to the Reader.

T. S. REeader, thou mayest understand that I writ a former Letter to my Antagonist, in answer to one sent me by him; from whence he raised Reports touching me, which were bo [...]h untrue and scandalous; for which cause it is principally that I have caused this Reply to come to the Pres [...].

W. T. A. 1. If I said he denied the Scriptures (not in words, but) really, whilest he denied them to be the Rule of [Page] Saints, and the ground of Faith (and that I said more, he shall not prove) that I say still; and its neither untrue (as I hope this rejoinder will shew) nor scandalous; or if he account it any way scandalous in regard of himself, himself hath made it so.

2. I very much doubt whether he speak really and as the trurh is, when he declareth that to be the principal cause of putting his Reply to the Press; what need so large a Plaister for so narrow a sore, and a printed Book for a few private words? But let his Epistle to the publike Teachers of this Nation speak whether the great end of putting out his Book, were not (I do not say to be revenged upon my self, an inferior Minister, for a feigned wrong; but) to shoot his Arrows, even bitter words against those whom he calls (with a bad conscience) the Chief Priests, that is, the Ministers of the Nation, as a bloody crew and company of men, such as they were that crucified the Lord Jesus.

3. However, I shall join with him in leaving it to those that fear the Lord to judge betwixt us, and am glad to hear so good a word come from him.

T S. Both his and my former I wou'd have printed with this, but that this wou [...]d thereby have encreased to too great a bulk, which would have caused it to be unto thee more tedious to read, and costly [...]o purchase.

W.T. He should have dealt fairly for all that, and not have mangled my Letters to draw out what passages he pleased with passing over principal things. Had he left out all his insolent and injurious Passions and Aspersions, and kept in all his Reasons especially his Right Reason, he might have printed my Letter; and yet this dear Book would not have sweld so much as to become a costly purchase.

I proceed now to the Reply it self.

In this Reply there be many passages which are nothing else but misrelating of my words, or pervertings of my meaning.[Page]I shall instance in that which comes presently to hand.

T. S. THis is no judging from you, Pag. 2 presently to conclude that man a Brute (for so he is that hath lost Piety, Humility and Civility) that doth not presently bow down and cry Hosanna to the mutable directions of the Pulpit.

W.T. 1. Here he will needs conclude himselfe a Brute, when I neither did so, nor gave him occasion to do so; for I did not say, as my words shew▪ Which were these, VVhen you have got more Piety and humility, you will have other thoughts; and when you have recovered your civility, you will write other Letters. that he had lost Piety, and Humility, and Civility; but that when he had got more of these (which did rather imply, then deny that he had some) then he would write other Letters. Now he that will thus mis-represent what is before his eyes, deserves a Reproof rather then an Answer, and therefore if I say nothing to divers such things, I presume I shall be excused.

2. We do not expect that men should stoop to the mutable directions of the Pulpit; but require them to submit to the immutable counsel of God, which we deliver as Ezra did, out of a Pulpit, Neh. 8.4.

3. What need he to name the Pulpit? for he was not spoken to out of the Pulpit, nor in any publike way; but Pulpit-hatred cannot be hid; nor will the device of mutable directions cloak it; for that which we preach there, and desire alone should be taken notice of from us (as binding the conscience) is Gods Word, which is not yea and nay, 2 Cor. 1.19.

Of Quakers quaking.

T.S. IT sufficeth for me, that you grant the thing I intended, viz. That the Servants of God of old did, Pag. 3 and still occasionally do quake and tremble before the Lord; but you say, they received no denomination from it, nor made a trade of it; did I ever assert either of these things?

[Page] VV.T. A. I did not say he did assert them; but my self had reason to speak of those things, to shew the difference between their quaking and that mentioned in Scripture, by which they would protect themselves; therefore I said, that they in Scripture received no denomination, or were not named from it, as these men are; for I know not from what else they own the name of Quakers. I said also, that they made no trade of it, as these men do, divers of whom have left their Trades and Callings and betaken themselves to a Trading in the quakers Employment.

Now that there is no sufficient protection for their quaking from the trembling of holy men in Scripture, I shall expresse (in general) in the words of a Church and company of godly Christians, better acquainted with them then my self. In a Letter from the Elders and some brethren of the Church of Christ, meeting at Stopport, in the name of the rest, Sam. Eaton.

Their words are these.

‘That which most satisfies us, that neither they nor their quakings are of God, is because though some particular persons, upon some particular and sudden appearances have trembled and quaked; yet there is nothing in all the Scripture that makes out the meetings of many people together in a constant way and course, waiting or expecting to see or hear something that casts them into Tran [...]es, and brings upon them quaking and trembling, and in a kinde of order also, as first on [...], and then another, &c.’

But to shew the difference more particularly.

1. The trembling we finde ordinarily in Scripture, denotes an inward reverence, humility and lowlinesse of minde, expressed by a trembling spirit. Isa. 66.2. Psal. 2.11. 1 Cor. 2, 3. 2 Cor. 7.15.Dan. 5.6. Eph. 6.5. Now theirs is an outward bodily quaking which may reach as high as Belshazers did, without any spark of the feare of God in the heart.

2. As for any outward bodily tremhlings of Saints in Scripture, they arose from weighty and extraordinary occasions, expressed in the word of God, together with their [Page] trembling. Psal. 119.120. Hab. 3.16. Dan. 10.7. Let these men therefore if they look to have approbation from that Word shew that their quaking is not a device to put a colour and a countenance upon their new-found way, by declaring such reasons for it, as the Scriptures, that make mention of such trembling, relate and express.

3. They that know their quaking, relate it to be such as the Scripture knows not; neither for the manner of it, nor the end of it.

1. Not for the manner of it, viz. ‘A trembling of all the parts of their body, as though their flesh must part from their bones and ligatures; with groveling upon th [...] ground, foaming at the mouth, roarings and perplexities, that one would think there could not be more torment on the damned spirits, then is upon them at the present.’

This is related in the Book, called, The Perfect Pharisee, pag. 41. and by Mr. Skip [...]e that was one of them, Worlds wonder ▪ p. 22.23. I do not say the quaking reacheth thus high in all; but thus it is among that company, which in Scripture we finde not unlesse where the foul spirit hath taken possession▪ Mark 9.18▪ 20.

2. Not for the end of it; which is declared to be, 1. ‘For purification; for they say, they are brought into so great sufferings, agoni [...]s and passions, as a fiery work to burn up in them and take off their hearts from hanging after old dispensations, wayes and discoveries;’ VVorlds wonder, p. 17. So that in this way they look to be purged from that which they have received formerly from the Truth and Ordinances of God. 2. It is conceived from their own words to be for their justification; for they say, ‘They must be brought to suffer as Christ did; and to undergo as great a sense of wrath as Christ did when he cryed, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me. Thus reckoning (saith ehe Relator of these things) as far as I am able to determine, that upon this account they must be justified before the Lord, Worlds wonder, pag. 23.’

Now let all men judge what agreement there is between this and Scripture-quaking.

[Page]4. I wonder that among all the quaking which they would have us suppose ariseth from the fear of God, they did never tremble in conformity to that Scripture, wherein God himself saith, VVherefore were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? but in stead of that, are still inveighing against men of Moses his minde and Office, Numb. 12.8.

VVhether Scripture be the Saints Rule.

T.S. NO Scripture saith so in terminis.

W. T. 1. That is Scripture which is necessarily deduced from it, though it be not in so many words expressed in it: Our Saviour to shew that the Scriptures hold forth the Doctrine of the resurrection to all knowing men, produceth this Scripture, I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Mark. 22.29, 32. Now shall a Quaker come to our Saviour, and say, Your proof is nothing, because the Scripture you bring saith not in terminis, There shall be a resurrection?

2. That in Deut. 5.31, 32, 33. is all one to a rational man, as if it had been said in plain terms, You shall walk perfectly according to the Rule and direction of my word.

3. Add hereunto that Gal. 6.16. the word Rule is expressed to shew the Doctrine laid down there, is the Rule they must walk by that look for peace and mercy. Hence Scriptures are called Canonical, because they are a Canon and Rule to walk by.

T.S. Let me ask you and many others who have been Teachers, were those things that you have taught so many yeers together necessarily deduced from Scriptures? if not, then by your own confession you have taught falshood; if they were, then all that you have so taught is infallible; for you say it is Scripture, and the Scripture is infallible.

[Page] W.T. A. Here is an horned Argument, wherewith he pusheth hard, but wants strength. One horn is this, If the things you have taught were not necessarily deduced from Scripture, then by your own confession you have taught falshood. To which I answer, That what he saith had something in it, if it were not a falshood that I made any such confession; I was not so lost as to confesse that to be a falshood which neither my self, nor any man well in his wits ever thought to be so. Was all that Moses learned from the Egyptians, or Daniel from the Chaldeans, a meer falshood? A Minister may have occasion to deliver divers things for peoples help, not necessarily deduced from Scripture, and yet very true; as Paul said of what a Poet said, Tit. 3.12, 13. This witness is true; yet what we have taught people to believe and practise as the mind of God, that we have prov'd to them out of the word of God.

But now the other horn seems stronger.

T. S. If they were necessarily deduced from Scripture, then all that you have so taught is infallible. Pag. 6

W.T. A. So it is; but not because we taught it; but, because it lies in, and was necessarily deduced from that Scripture which is infallible.

T.S. Why then do you not adjoin all your Sermons to the Scripture? for if necessarily deduced thence, they are Scripture, and a part of the Saints Rule; but what a sad condition would many poor souls be in, whose small Estates would not amount to the purchase of a Bible, so voluminous would it be, &c.

VV.T. A. When it is said, why do you not then adjoine all your Sermons to Scripture?See an answer to an Epistle of T. Speed, p. 67. that (sure) is something simply spoken; for what need that be adjoined and added to Scripture that is already in it, as all is that is necessarily deduced from it? for how could it be gathered from it, (and that necessarily) if it were not in it?Nihil dat quod non habet. who can take any thing from thence where it is not to be had? The poor souls therefore of whom he speaks, need not trouble themselves about the purchasing of a bigger Bible; any more then of [Page] another well in the place of that living Fountaine, from whence water hath been drawn (which when it was drawn was that well-water) this hundred or thousand yeers.

T.S. Whereas you quote Christ his proving the resurrection of the dead▪ &c. I answer, That what Christ spake was infallible, he neither did nor could erre in what he said.

W.T. A. It's true, that what Christ spake was infallible; but this he saith to no purpose; for Christ doth not speak there as one that would presse them to receive what he delivers upon his bare word▪ but as one that would convince them of the truth of what he spake by Scripture; that is, by his necessary and unanswerable reasonings from it: He doth not say, Ye do erre, not knowing me to be an infallible Teacher, whom you ought to believe upon his word; but, not knowing the Scriptures and the Power of God; both which plainly prove that there shall be, and may be a resurrection.

T.S. Were you as infallible in those meanings and interpretations which you force upon the Scriptures, as he was in what he spake from the Spirit of the Lord, I should readily close with them as the Oracles of God.

W.T. A 1. If all Pastors and Teachers were Apostles, then these men would presently be Converts: This is like them that said to our Savior, Let him now come down from the Cross, and we will believe him: but they who contemn that means which God in his wisdom ordains, and will do nothing without that means which they in their folly demand, justly perish.

2. Neither is this device of any value; for the question is not whether we be infallible in our meanings and deductions; but whether that which is deduced and drawn from Scripture, that is, necessarily, and upon supposal that we are not deceived in the deducing, be Scripture, or a thing truly contained in Scripture, which I affirm it is. Let him not talk to no purpose, but keep him to his work, and prove the contrary.

[Page]T.S. Either say to the people plainly, that you are infallible, or else say that you are fallibles that so they may take liberty of proving both your actions and Doctrine.

W.T. A. We willingly acknowledge we are fallible or men that may be deceived & therefore do not onely give liberty, but give counsel to people, and exhort them to examine what we say, and to see whether God in his Word do not say it also; and according as it agreeth or disagreeth with that Word, so to receive it, or lay it aside. But withal, two things may be considered: 1. That it is no untruth, nor immodesty to say, That the Ministers of this Nation be as infallible as other Teachers are; so that the matter will be brought to this issue, Either there must be no Teaching, and thats against Scripture, which declareth Teaching to be a perpetual Ordinance, Matt. 28.19, 20. and (as it were) the Churches Inheritance, As Deut. 3.4. Isa. 59.21. or else there mast be found in these dayes infallible Teachers, and that's against experience; (none pretending to infallibility but the Pope, or they that are like him) or else we must be taught, (and that's the truth) by men that are fallible. But, secondly; Notwithstanding this, we affirm [...] that what we collect by sound natural and necessary inference from Scripture, that's infallible, though we be not. Is it not an infallible truth that there be three Heavens, though we do not read in Scripture (that I remember) of a first and second Heaven [I mean in expresse words?] if there be a third Heaven (which the Scripture expresly assureth us of 2 Cor. 12.2.) then there must needs be two more, though the Scripture name them not

T.S. Take six of you that esteem your selves the most able Doctors, and a portion of Scripture being given you to interpret, Pag. 7 shut your selves up in six several Rooms, and after some time give your interpretations thereof to one that shall receive them from each of you apart from the rest; and perhaps not two of the six shall agree in the same interpretation; and would you have poor people adventure their souls on the truth of such mens deductions from Scripture, who dwell in such vast confusion[Page]and difference in their deductions?

W. T. Here's the old Popish Argument against the Protestant Religion, whereby the Franciscan Fryers may observe them to be pretty well prepared for the Pope;See the way to the true Church, by Iohn VVhite, in answer to a Jesuit, pag. 161. v. 36. for Papists declare, we must needs want unity, because we do not acknowledge one chief Pastor, to wit, the Successor of Saint Peter, and wholly submit to his definitive Sentence. In this declaration of the want of Unity, the quakers join with them; how hopeful therefore is the invitation? Come from those dissenting men that are call'd Ministers unto us; for we have one infallible proponent of Truth, the Successor of Peter, in whom we are all perfectly united: But how well the Papists agree, hath been shewed to their shame: And suppose they did agree in that which is evil, they are thereby in greater danger; as they may understand from one that was a Pope himself (but of a far better minde then his Successors) who tells us, (and the Quakers if they please may hear it) that, Sicut esse noxium solet, si unitas desit bonis, ita perniciosum est si non desit malis, quos tanto mag [...]s incorrigibil [...]s quanto unanimes facit. As it is very hurtful if Unity be wanting to the good; so it is pernicious if it be not wanting to the evil; who are so much the more incorrigible, by how much they are the more unanimous, Greg. Moral. in Job Lib. 33 c. 33

But to come neerer to the matter:

1. I shall relate what one hath answered them already, which is this, They speak of Unity; but it is young dayes as yet, they are but learners and imitators; yet they branch themselves to walking, singing, naked and Virgi [...]-quakers. Some Queries proposed to Quakers, by Francis Harris.

2. I answer more particularly, (and it is that which is plain to those that be not partial) that though the faithful Ministers of this Nation be not onely shut up in several Rooms that is confined to several stations; but also live many of them in parts far distant one from another yet people hear the same things from them all in their several places; I mean, as to the substance and saving Truth of Religion: If in some lesse things we differ (God having not given to all the like light, Phi. 3.16.) or, if the distemper and loosnesse of the times have more then ordinarily diversified us, yet there is enough of that, wherein we generally agree [Page] to guide the feet of the Christians into the way of Peace.

3. It is not yet resolv'd that the Quakers do agree in all things among themselves; for consider how high and how horrid their expressions are; One said that he was equal with God. Another that himself was as holy, just and good as God. Another she-quaker (in hold at Reding) being convented, and asked her Name answered, I am that I am, and stood to it. These and many more the like, you finde (with the proofs) in the Sober Answer of the Ministers of Redding to the Epistle prefixed to this Book; to which I adde what is published in answer to Mr. Ny [...], Mr. Goodwi [...], &c. which is this, That Christ is God and man in one person, is a lye. Another of the quakers said, that it is alike for to take a Sentence out of their Letters (that is the quakers Letters) and to preach from it, as to take a Sentence out of Pauls Epistles. See this in the Faithful Discovery of a Treacherous Designe, pag. 33.

Now if this Writer and his fellow-quakers be all of this minde, and close with those other of their way in the fore-recited things, then there's a good company of them; if they do not, then they also want Unity.

The Truth is, It's incident to all to agree in Error (the Devil and corrupt nature furthering that conjunction) it is of the Grace of God that they that are right hold together. Yet that Protestant Ministers and Churches do so, let the Harmony of Confessions witnesse: And that the publike Teachers in this and the Neighbor-Nation do agree, let the late Confession of Faith, framed and concurr'd upon by the Assembly of Divines, testifie.

T.S. Next you urge that Scripture, Deut. 5.32, 33. viz. You shall not turn aside to the right hand or the left &c.Pag. 7 Could Moses intend this in relation to Scripture, the greatest part of which was not then written?

W.T. Answ. Though the greatest part of Scripture was written after, yet the ten Commandments (in reference whereunto Moses spake those words) were written then; Deut. 5 22. Exod. 24.3, 4. Now by the same reason whereby [Page] the Scripture written then, was a Rule then; by the same, the Scripture written since, is a Rule since; to wit, because it is the word of God after which our steps ought to be ordered, Psal. 119.133. But the Reader may observe, that he leaves out the Explication of that Scripture, Deut. 5.31, 32, 33. whereby I shewed it to be a Rule; to wit, because, Ye shall not turn to the right hand or the left, is equivalent to this, Make your Rule exactly to walk by; and then asks, Doth this Scripture say that the Scripture is the Saints Rule? To which I answer, That it saith so to his reason and conscience (if he have any) if not in Sillables, yet in Sense.

T.S. Because the word [Rule] is expressed, Gal. 6.16. Is therefore the Scripture the Saints Rule? Pag. 7

W.T. Answ. Here he puts down a word or two of what I spake, leaving out the rest, and then makes as if I had spoken that which I never spake; for I never said, that because the word [Rule] was there, therefore the Scripture is the Saints Rule; but the force of the Argument lies in this, That the very word [Rule] is expressed there for the end and purpose, to declare & hold forth the Scripture to be a Rule: For here's an happy end, Peace and Mercy; & a walk prescribed for the attaining of that end, & a Rule revealed to guide that walk, to wit, that Word of God which is written in the two verses immediately going before, viz. v. 14, 15. wherein all men are directed to glory in the Cross of Christ, v. 14. and that so as to become new Creatures, v. 14, 15. that is, they are guided to faith, accompanied with holinesse, as the sure way to happinesse.

For the further opening and confirming whereof, let it be observ'd, that the Apostle doth, in the close of this Epistle, knit up the Doctrine of the whole Epistle, yea of the whole Gospel, yea of the whole Bible▪ (whereupon this is justly extended by Divines to the whole Canonical Scripture) and the Doctrine is this, That we are to look for Justification and life not in the works of the Law (either without Christ, or with Christ) but in Christ crucified alone; apprehended by Faith; and yet that faith is not alone, but appears in the novation of our nature within; and in working by love [Page] without, in the keeping of all Gods Commandments.

This is apparent by v. 14. where Paul professeth his glorying in the Crosse of Christ alone; that is, his contentful and triumphant confidence in Christ crucified; the rather for the blessed effect thereof, which he found in himself; to wit, The worlds being crucified to him, as he was to the world; that is, whereby he was made a new creature; which is a thing so considerable, that (if we reckon of things as Christ doth) all outward priviledges and preheminences are nothing, v. 15.

Hereupon it follows, v. 16. As many as walk according to this Rule; that is, this Scripture-Doctrine, which teacheth men by faith to rest on, and rejoyce in Jesus Christ crucified, and crucifying; that is, so working on, and in them by their believing in him, as that they are crucified with him, and become new creatures; Peace shall be upon them, Rom. 5.1. and mercy, 1 Tim. 1.14. whether they be Jews or Gentiles; when otherwise nothing will avail either the one or the other for peace and life.

Now, if any shall say as this Writer doth, (who gives forth a meaning himself, when he cries out upon other men for doing the like) that the Rule is the new Creature; (meaning thereby the Law and Direction of the Spirit in the heart of a person regenerated) this falls in with the former; for the Spirit suggesteth no other Rule to the heart, then that which it expresseth in the Word.

But the Apostle sufficiently decides this matter, and interprets himself, Ch. 5. v. 5, 6. where handling the same Argument, viz. Resting on Christ by faith, for righteousness and life; and bringing in the very same reason that he doth here, he doth a little vary the words, and instead of the new Creature (named here) puts Faith working by love. So that the Rule is plainly this, To look for salvation by Faith in Christ Jesus working by love; which is the character of a new creature, who first is in Christ by Faith, 2 Cor. 5.17. and then, that Faith worketh by love and in holinesse, because the new creature is Gods workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works Eph. 2.10.

[Page] W.T. Saints must walk by one Rule or another; I ask then what is the Rule if Scripture be not the Rule?

T.S. I know no new Rule, nor own none but the same that Abel,Pag. 8 Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Paul, and the rest of the holy men of God walked by. And by the same touchstone that those holy men proved the Light they walked by, whether it were of God or no; the same and no other do I own still.

W.T. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, had the Word of God for their Rule, delivered to them as God pleased in those times: Moses, David and Paul had the same thing for their Rule; that is, the Word of God; but committed to Writing for the Churches use in their times.

To that Word [new] I answer▪ That the Rule is the same still; that is, the revealed will of God; there's nothing new but the Writing, and that's now old.

But what's this to my question, which was, If the Scripture be not the Rule▪ what is the Rule? Hereunto he gives a crafty, but no clear Answer; he seems to say That's the Rule which the holy men of God (whose Names he puts down) walked by. I ask him again, But what was that Rule which they walked by? If he think it to be the Word of God (whether revealed without writing as at first; or written, as afterward) why doth he not say so, and so yeild that the word written is [now] our Rule? If he think the inward Light (which Quakers dream of) to be the Rule, then I ask him again▪ How shall we trye whether that pretended Light be a Rule to walk by? For he's a fool that beleeves every thing. Now this he huddles up, and speaks something (to no purpose) generally and guilefully, but nothing determinately. All he sayes is this, That by the same Touchst [...]ne that those holy men proved the Light they walked by; the same, and no other do I own. q. d. By the same Touchstone whereby my neighbor tries his coyne, the same I own.

Here I shall not examine whether this Author (that is so exact in Grammer in the latter part of his Book) speak so good sense as he should do; I leave that to the Reader.

[Page]But since he speaks of Holy Mens Touchstone I shall propound unto him the approved Example of the Bereans, who proved Pauls Doctrine, as Paul was willing they should prove it, to wit, by searching the Scripture. Let him prove his Light by the same Touchstone that these holy and noble persons did, and it shall suffice. If he say Paul proved not his own Light so; I reply, 1. That there is a great difference between [...], that received his Light immediately from Christ, and himself and Quakers, who too much manifest that they have not received their Light from him, either immediately or mediately. 2. It is enough that the Spirit of God commends that way of proving Pauls Light by others that were his hearers; for thence it will follow, either that that Scripture-search is the way to prove every mans Light that professeth he receiveth it from Christ, or else the commendation of the Bereans for doing so is not a sufficient approbation of the wisdom of that course; and so we shall come to question the spirit of God speaking to their praise in that portion of Scripture. Cum Thessalonicenses laudat spiritus Dei, in eorum Exemplo regulam nobis praescribit. Calv. in Acts 17.11.

T.S. When you say indefinitely, Pag 8 they (i. e. the quakers) reject the Scriptures (not quoting any particulars) whether can it be any other way taken, but that they throw them off in general?

W.T. A. If I spake indifinitely (and what I said my Letters shew) yet this Schollar was so long in the University (I think) as to know there is a difference between an ind [...] [...]nit [...] and an universal Proposition. He is said to reject the Scriptures [truly] that rejects any part of them, as the Jews do the New-Testament; when Christ saith, Ye do erre, not knowing the Scriptures, doth not he tax them truly, though there were some part of Scripture that these men did know and acknowledge? to wit, because they did not know, but denied, or ignorantly perverted the Scriptures testifying of the resurrection.

[Page]T.S. Pag. 8 That you did intend the rejection of the whole Scrip [...]ture, I prove thus; The Scripture as the Saints Rule you say they reject: Now whether is a part of Scripture, or the whole the Saints Rule? If the whole, and you go about to prove they reject the Scripture because they deny it to be the Saints Rule; then nothing more plain then this, That they reject the whole Scripture.

W.T. He's a great Undertaker, that assumes so much to himself, as to discover a mans intentions. But to the thing I answer; The whole Scripture is the compleat Rule; and the several parts of Scripture are the Rule in part: Whereupon I adde further, That he that rejects all Scripture, rejects the whole Rule; but he that rejects but a part, is truly said to reject Scripture; for every part of Scripture is Scripture. The quakers therefore denying the Scripture to be the Saints Rule, really reject the Scripture; that is, they reject those Scriptures from which it is necessarily concluded that it is their Rule. Now for his Argument its true; That they who reject any Scripture (as A Quatenus ad omne valet Argumentum. the Saints Rule [...] (which I said not of them) reject the whole Scripture; that is, they reject the whole as a Rule; yet upon some other account they may retain it. Let himself and the quakers look after his Argument, and see how they will answer it.

T.S. Pag. 9 However we will take your own words, with your own Interpretations, by which you give us to understand, that they whom you call quakers do not reject the Scripture in gen [...] ral.

W.T. I do not give any man to understand, that they do not reject the Scripture in general; for though I did not say they reject it wholly, nor meant to say so; yet I think they reject it wholly in a very high degree, whilest they deny it to be the Word of God, See the Quakers quaking, by Ier. Ives, p. 6. The blinde guides, the Priests of England, they do teach the people, and say, Hearken to the word of the Lord, as it is in a chapter and a verse. and reproach it, as if it were nothing but Ink and Paper, as we shall see hereafter. All that I did give men to understand, is, That I did not say they rejected the Scriptures in general; neither did I say, they did not. How glad is a man in his necessity to catch at any thing? but yet it is but a folly to catch at nothing.

Of Ministers receiving Tythes.

[Page]

T. S. BY what Rule in Scripture do you receive Tythes for preaching? Pag. 10

W.T. I did, and do answer him, That with respect to our Labour in Preaching, we receive a maintenance from these Scripture Rules; 1 Cor. 9.14. So hath the Lord ordained, that they which preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel. Gal. 6.6. In special, Luk 10.7. with 1 Cor. 9.9. The Labourer is worthy of his hire; which Scriptures he is so wise as to take no notice of: I answered further, That we received Tythes because (for present) that's the allotted maintenance. It being the Scripture-Rule that Ministers should be maintained, suppose that no particular way of maintenance be prescribed, yet that Rule doth evince the Righteousnesse of any lawful way, such as that by Tythes is. Till he prove that an unlawful way of maintenance, we still plead the Scripture-Rule, which requires a maintenance.

T.S. A Father putteth his Son to the University for some certain yeers, to learn the Trade of Sermon-making, &c.

W.T. This general prophane fancie, I leave for quakers and quaffers, and athiests to make merry withal, and come to his self-pleasing particulars.

T.S. If any man dye possest of a rich Parsonage, how many of you have presently a call to it? Pag. 11 then dayes of fasting and humiliation must be kept, pretending to seek God, to know who hath the clearest Call; and though you are all resolved in your hearts beforehand to get it if you can, yet the Name of God, and the Prayers of some well-meaning people must be made use of by every one of you as a cloak, lest your deceit should be too plainly discovered. I know you will call this clamour; but I speak plain truth.

[Page] A. 1. There may be just reason for the exchanging of a mans place by the judgement of the Church of God, out of respect to the benefit of the Church, and the advantage of Jesus Christ. And a man may be duly called from a place where there is lesse maintenance to another where there is more, to wit, because there is more work there (which rebukes the affecting of the maintenance.) Now, if any change ungroundedly, or passe into any place disorderly (whereof here's no proof) for that I shall not plead.

2 It is not very like that they who betake themselves to fasting and humiliation, are the persons that are guilty of such mis-removeals; self-seeking and God seeking do not well agree together: nor is it like that Gods people will come together to fast and pray upon a worldlings call; sure they take him to be a godly Minister with whom they join in such an exercise; and if he prove otherwise, so publike a course will make his sin the more observed, and so will turn to his greater shame. If he be wise therefore, though he be not good, it is not probable that he will walk in that way; mean while this helps to cast a profane contempt upon Gods highest course in difficult cases, and teacheth Atheistical people what to say when they see a Minister humbling his soul (together with Gods people) to seek resolution from him. Fasting and prayer they will acknowledge to be good in it self; but when any Minister (sought to for a removeal) comes to practise this course, they cry out against it, for this man tels them (and they be glad to hear it) that there is nothing but hypocrisie in it. So all fasts for Ministers direction (in case of their call from one place to another) become a matter of derision.

3. This [Poetical] Relator saith it is thus: But how shall we know that he speaks truth? Is it certainly true that Ministers that seek to God to clear up their call, are [resolved] and [all] resolved, and all resolved [in their hearts] before hand, to get a rich Parsonage if they can? How doth this man know the resolution of all Ministers hearts? [Page] I do not think he knows the mens names that do so, (nor can name any one man upon whom to lay that imputation justly, which he layes flatly upon all) but yet he knows their hearts; will any man think (that hath any thing of charity, or Christianity in him) that [all] the Ministers in this Nation that fast and pray in this case, are thus resolved? I will not call this [...]lamo [...], (as he sayes I will) but slander; nor is it (as himself cals it) a [...]lain truth, but a plain and shameful untruth, as I shall now shew.

T.S. If r [...]port be not an [...], [...]ou d [...]d strenuously endeavour to shew your self a faithfu [...] Minister, Pag. 11 by your preaching rather at Wells for Tythes, then at Ubley for soul.

W. T. Here I must desire the Reader to turn from his Winter-tale, and hear the story of Wel [...]-business.

The Inhabitants of the City of Wells (namely, they of Cuthberts Parish) were Petitioners Anno 1646. to the Parliament then sitting, that since the Parish was of so vast extent, comprehending within its Precincts above ten thousand souls, they might therefore obtain the favour to be supplied with Pastors sutable to so great a people; This Petition was granted, and by an Ordinance of both Houses of Parliament, Mr. Samuel Oliver and my self, (for whom, and to whom, the People of that forenamed City and Parish were earnest Suitors) were constituted and appointed to be their joint Pastors: And the sum of three hundred pounds (beside the Vicarige there) was assigned to be paid out of Dean and Chapters Lands, for our maintenance: Hereupon, so considerable a congregation as this is being destitute of provision, our call being so earnest and so unanimous to it, and yet our own charges (wherein we were setled before) needing our help, we resolved for a year to bestow our paints at W [...]lls in our turns, every Lords day, (our own people being willing to want us every other Sabb. that that great place might be supplied) [Page] Now for this year the maintenance assigned by the Parliament belonged to us. Wheref [...] I took for my part fifty pound, not medling with the rest (which was neer 100l.) but leaving it to one that had more need of it then my self. But all this while we were solicitous what to do in regard of the solicitations at Wells, and the necessities and interests of our own charges; And did thereupon make known to our people, and to others, our purpose of keeping a day of Humiliation to seek the Lord for our direction. They that knew Mr. Oliver, and that have any fear of God in them, will not judge him an Hypocrite, that is, one that resolved before hand what to do, and then came to ask counsel of God. He is with God out of the reach of Revi [...]ers; for my self, I know mine own heart, and (I thank God) can say in the presence of that God that knows it better then my self that I walked with much fear and trembling in that businesse. He saies here, You are [all] resolved b [...]fore hand to get a great living if you can. I blesse God I am able to say that he speaks most untruly in it, and as one that makes no conscience of what he saies; For I not only could have had Wells, and above 150l. per annum there (when the maintenance in mine own place was never accounted but 50l. per annum, and is now much lesse) I say, I not only could have had VVells as being nominated and designed unto it by the authority of Parliament, and called to it by the people, but I was most earnestly importuned to have taken it and resided in it, not onely by the desires of Christians there, but by letters from sundry considerable Persons, moving much to accept of the place for the publike good, which I confesse made me at a stand in it: yet, in remembrance of the nature of my first call to my own charge (which was more then ordinary) the present desires and pressing of my People to detain me, and the difficulty of providing a faithfull Minister for them, I left Wells returned to them, and have now well nigh 40 years lived amongst them.

[Page]But why doth this man, whose calumny hath constrained me thus far to trouble the Reader, speak so hatefully of the maintenance we take, when it was reported of him in a Sermon preached in the City of Bristol, and therefore the report is not like to be so egregious a lye as his hath proved to be? I say it was reported and related of him before the whole Congregation, soon after he had published this Book that he being asked by a known and approved Minister in that City, why he left his publike teaching, having ability for it? his answer to him was, that it would not give him a maintenance; to which the Minister that asked him the question replied, that he would preach the Gospel while he was able if he had never a penny for it.

Now let all men judge what reason he hath to calumniate other men in the matter of maintenance, that hath been found so intent upon it himself?

W. T. Neither do Ministers take Tithes for preaching, &c.

T. S. They take not Tithes for doing nothing; and is not preaching the consideration for which they take them?

W. T. Their labour in preaching is the consideration for which they take them; but maintenance is neither the cause of their preaching, nor the end of their preaching nor that which guide [...], and orders, and regulates their preaching.

W. T. Ministers take Tithes because that for present is the maintenance allotted to them.

T. S. But by whom? not by Jesus Christ, &c. and therefore they ought not to take them.

W. T. Not by Jesus Christ immediately; but yet by Jesus Christ by those Magistrates whom he hath appointed to be nursing fathe [...]s to his Church, Isa. 49.23. and therefore to provide that the Ministers of the Church may not want maintenance, that the children of the Church may not want milk.

T. S. 1. qu. Whether Christ was not the end of the Levitical Priesthood?

[Page] W.T. A. Yes, but we read of Tythes before there was any Levitical Priesthood, and before L [...]vi was Heb. 7.9, 10.

T.S. Qu. 2. Whether he that uph [...]ldeth that which is to have an end in Christ, doth not deny Christ to be come in the fl [...]sh, and consequently is Antichr [...]st?

W. T. A. Tythes, as received by the Law of the Nation, upon the general account of Maintenance for a Gospel Ministrey, are no Appurtenance of the Levitical Priesthood;See a sober answer to an angry Epistle, pag. 25. nor are they any necessary Appurtenance at all, as being paid before there was any Levitical Priesthood. Nor doth Ministers taking of Tythes uphold that Priesthood any more then doth their having of houses to dwell in, and glebe Land for their Cattel, as the Levites formerly had Cities, with their Suburbs for the same ends, Numb. 35.7. So that this quaery is to no purpose; for the question here is not whether he that upholdeth that which is to have an end in Christ, deny Christ to be come in the flesh; but whether taking Tythes be such an upholding; which we deny, and he shall never be able to prove.

T.S. Qu. 3. Wheth [...]r they that claim the Maintenance partic [...] larly appointed to the Priests and Levites, are not to do their work, viz. Prepare the Sacrifice [...], sl [...]y Oxen, Sh [...]ep, Goats, &c.

VV.T. A. 1. We take not the Maintenance particularly appointed to the Priests and Levites; they had a far greater proportion of Maintenance then the Tythes we take, and of another kind also.

2. The Priests and Levites work was not only to prepare Sacrifices, and to instruct about Jewish-Rites, but also, 1. To open the Scripture, and teach the good knowledge of God generally; Deu. 33.10. 2 Chro [...]. 30.22. Neh. 8.8. Mal. 2.7. 2. To blesse and pray for the people, Numb. 6.23. Joel. 2.17. 1 Sam. 12.23. The Ceremonial part of their work we do not, because we ought not, it being abolished (yet while we minister the Gospel of God, we are still sacrificing spiritually, as [...]aul did, Rom. 15.16.) The two other parts which we ought to do, those we do, and so receive Reward for our service, as they did, Numb. 18. [...]1.

[Page]3. Melchisedeck received Tythes, and yet did no Levitical Work, Heb. 7.6 and in him Christs Priesthood is represented, whose [...]inisters we are, and therefore may take maintenance in that way, without doing that Work.

Of Infants Baptism.

THe next thing is Infants Baptism; in the defence whereof I us [...]d this Argument; Christ by the Apostle Paul, co [...]ma [...]d [...] to render to all their a [...]s, Rom. 13.7. Bu [...] bapti [...]m is an Infants [...]. Ergo.

T.S VVas it ever heard, Pag. 14, 15. or did it ever enter into the heart of any sobe [...]- [...]inded man, to conceive that Paul intended the seventh v [...]rse of the thirteenth Chapter to the Romans to prove the sprinkling of Infants faces with water to be an Ordinance of Jesus Christ?

W.T. Surely if great words would carry a Cause, this man would never fail to conquer. But to come to the matter, I answer, That though the Apostle doth not intend in those words to prove Infant-Baptism; yet he intends what he saies, and what I cited the words for, to wit, That we must render to every one that which is due; and more then that I desire not, nor intend to take from that Scripture; for, that Baptism is an Infants due, I prove otherwise; and if it be so, then by that general Rule (both of Scripture and Nature) it ought to be rendred to him. And I did the rather bring this place of Scripture, because the great Objection against Infant Baptism is, That there is no command for it; whereas (if Baptism be an Infants due) there lies in this Scripture, though not a particular, yet a pressing command for it in the general Law of rendring what is due [Page] If any shall say (for I am not onely willing to answer him (which is soon done) but to satisfie others) I say therefore, that if any shall say and object, That the Apostle applies this general Precept onely to things civil, and therefore it is improperly drawn to Baptism, which is a religious Ordinance.

1. I answer, That the application of a general precept or axiome is one thing, the restricti is another. The application of a general Rule to one thing, doth not hinder the extent and application of it (according to the general latitude in it) to other particulars rightly ranked under that general. So that general sentence (like to this we have here in hand) Whatsoever ye would that men shou [...]d do to you, do even so to th [...]m, Matt [...]. 7.12. is very justly, not onely applyed as Jo [...] doth (cap. 16.4, 5, 6.) to shew that every man should put himself into a miserable mans case, and speak and do as himself would expect in the like case; but also is justly extended to any particulars in the Law and Prophets, relating to the second Table. In like manner that general truth, It is required in Stewards [...] a man be found faithful, 1 Cor. 4.2. is rightly applyed not onely to any ordinary Steward in the house of the Lord, but to every Minister and spiritual Steward in the Work of his Lord. In sum, Had the Apostle restrain'd that general Sentence to things civil, there had been no room left for enlargement▪ but being that he reciteth it as a known Maxim, and applyeth it only to the matter in hand, there is both a Liberty and a Pattern to make the like application in other the like cases.

2. I answer, That if it be true that every one is to have his due in things civil, and belonging to the second Table, then by proportion in things religious also, and belonging to the first Table▪ for the general Rule of rendring to every one his right, runs thus; not only, Render to Cesar the things which are Cesar [...], that is, which are due to Cesar, and which are here spoken of to the Romans; but also to God the things which are G [...]ds; that is which are due to God, Matt. 22.21.

[Page]3. It's plain. That the Apostle in Rom. 13. doth not only apply this to the rendring of whats due to Magistrates;Debita sunt reddenda omnibus; charitas est debitum perpetuum & universale; per petuo igitur omnibus reddendum. Parae. in Rom. 13.8. but carries it further to all that love and duty which is required and owing in regard of the second Table, v. 8.19. and therefore it hath a binding force to impose upon all men the rendring of that which is due to private persons as well as to Magistrates and consequently to tye Parents to every due and duty owing to their children. If therefore it be Parents duty and childrens due to bring their children to baptism (as in my Letter I have prov'd) then that general Precept of rendring to every one their due, is justly extended to the urging of their baptizing.

Now its true, that baptizing Infants as it is a duty of Religion, belongs to the first Table; but as it is a duty of rel [...] tion, to the second Table. As to bring up children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, belongs to the first Table, as it is a duty of Piety, promoting the honor and service of God; but it belongs to the second Table as it is a duty of P [...] rents, and as it is a debt of love in them to teach their children, as David and Ba [...]hsheba did their dear Solomo [...], Prov. 43, 4. & 31.2.

Now to winde up all; since the Apostle applies the general Law of rendring what is due to all men generally, and that also in all the duties of the second Table; and since to the first commandment of the second Table, every due from Parents to children is to be referred; it is therefore manifest, that if baptizing Infants be a due, then Parents are not only permitted, but commanded (and that not onely by vertue of that general sentence in it self, but also by the Apostles application of it) to render it to them.

T.S. Your Argument runneth thu [...], Pag. 15 If we ought to render all their dues, then Infants ought to be baptized; but we ought to rende [...] all their dues. Ergo. Which argument amounteth to as much as this, children ought to be baptized, because they ought to be baptized.

W.T. Suppose those words,

[Render to all their dues]

be taken only for an Exhortation; yet because it is such an Exhortation as is also a Precept, and that general, it serves [Page] sufficiently to infer Infant-Baptism, because even Infants are comprehended under those [all] that must have their due It appears to those that have well viewed this context, that the Apostle in the 7. ver. of Rom. 13. falleth upon this new ground and Argument for subjection to Magistrates,Argumentum a Regulajuris & equi. Paraeus Ar [...]tius, P. Mart. Parr. VVilson. to wit, The p [...]ying of all their dues, v. 7. The owing of nothing to any ma [...], v 8. This reason he coucheth under the form of an Exhortation, yet so as that it hath an argumentative force in it, such as we finde more expresly in other parallel Scriptures, as Matth. 22.21. Eph. 6.1. Col. 4.1. And the Argument is this, If we must render to all their dues, then sub [...]ection, honor, tribute must be given to Magistrate [...]; but we must render to all their dues. Ergo. This man doth not like the Apostles-Logick, but sayes (in effect) all this amounts to as much as this, Magistrates ought to have [...]ribute paid, because they ought to have Tribute paid; when any man (of ordinary understanding) cannot but see that this is not a proving of the same by the same, but an argument drawn from that which is more general, to that which is more particular, Quod affi [...] matur de genere, etiam affirmatur de sp [...]cie; & a superiori cum signo universali ad inferius s [...]mper valet consequentia; ut Deus est ubi (que) Ergo & hic adest. K [...]k. [...]ystem. Log. Lib. 3. c. 16. and which lieth directly under that general; and namely, from the general rule of Justice, to acts of Justice in particular cases; as if one should argue thus; Its your duty to do right to every man; therefore to do it to me: So here the argument is not, Children ought to be baptized because they ought, but because it is their due, and every one ought to have his due: So it's bottom'd on, and proved by a fundamental Law of Nature, as well as a Precept of Scripture.

VV.T. The Infant of a believing Parent is a holy child.

T.S. Paul saith, That he, with others, were by na [...]ure c [...]dren of wrath; Pag. 26 but he that is holy is no childe of wrath.

W T. A. An Infant may be a childe of Wrath naturally, and yet be holy faederally, as the Infants of believets are, who (by reason of Gods covenant made with the Parents) are not to be reckoned among heathens, but among Gods holy people. Its true that he that is inherently holy, that is, that hath the grace and fear of God planted in his heart, is not now a child of wrath; but we do not say that the Infants of believers are holy in that sense that is, by regeneration, but only by Covenan [...]-Rela [...]ion ▪

[Page]T. S. If the holiness mentioned 1 Cor. 7.14. be the foundation of Infant-baptism, then may an unbeliever be baptized also; for the same holiness that the child had, the unb [...]lieving Parent had; for the same Gre [...]k word that is used for sanctifying the unbelieving parent, is used for the holiness of the child. And will you say the unbelieving parent had a right to Baptism? [...]. &c.

W. T. A. Here's some colour of an argument, but the colour will quickly fade if it be found that the same Greek word hath in several places several significations and applications. And so it is ordinarily; As in the word [ [...]] that is commonly translated a Church; sometimes that Greek word signifieth a civil (or an uncivil) assembly, as Act. 19.32. but otherwhere (and often) a sacred and Church-assembly,So [...]: signifies lowly, Mat. 11.29. and base, 2 Cor. 10.1. 1 Cor. 11.18, 22. so another Greek word [ [...] and [...]] sometimes signifies that which is redundant and supe [...]fluous, 2 Cor. 9 1. sometimes that which is laudably abundant and eminent, Mat. 5.47. Rom 3.1. Nor is the Greek word here used alwayes taken in the same sense; for sometimes it signifieth onely an outward separation, and coming from the world to the Church, Heb. 10 29 sometimes an inward renovation, and a passing from nature to grace, 1 Cor. 6 11. 2 Thes. 2.13. yea, in the same verse, John 17.19 its taken in divers senses, Christ sanctifying himself for us otherwise then he sanctifie thus; he sanctifieth himself by the filling of his humane nature with perfect holiness for our use and the consecrating of himself to suffer for us in that nature; He sanctifieth us by regenerating us (and that more and more) to newness of life by the truth of the Gospel.

2. I answer (further) that the Greek word here applied to the parent and the child, is not altogether the same, that is, it is not the same for the part of speech, though it be the same as to the T [...]eme or root. It is said, the children are holy [ [...]] but it is not said the unbelieving parent is holy, that is, holy personally, as the children are where [Page] one Parent is a Believer, but onely that he is sanctified [ [...]] that is, is holy relatively, in relation (for so it is as I conceive rightly interpreted) unto marriage-communion, about which the question there was raised, and as concerning which the Apostle wholly there, by way of resolution, declareth that there is a lawful use of matrimony, though one party be an Heathen, and one only a Believer, which also extendeth so far as that the children of such a couple shall not be accounted unholy, because one Parent is an Heathen, but ho [...]y, that is, persons that are Church-children, and to whom the Covenant of God belongs, because one Parent is a Believer.

T. S. Pag. 17 Many that are drunkards, swearers, whore-masters, and professed enemies of the Lord, have received the mark of Baptism; and call you these Gods people? Doth this distingu-them from a profane Indian?

W. T. A. 1. The notorious baptized persons whereof he speaks, have very much to answer for; yet if God say M [...] people, Mic. 6.3.5.10.16. to them that had the treasures of wickedness in the house of the wicked, and the scant measure which is abominable, yea, that walked after the idolatrous counsels and statutes of Omri and Ahab; why may we not give even such wretched men that title? were not they of the Church of Corinth Gods people, and reckoned among called Saints 1 Cor. 1.2., against whom the Apostle draws up so sad a charge? 2 Cor. 12.20, 21. yea, was not the incestuous person (who exceeded the Heathen in wickedness) one of them till he was excommunicated? If not, what had they to do to excommunicate him? since the Church hath nothing to do to [...]udge them that are without? 1 Cor. 5.12. And is it not plain in the same chapter, that a man that is called a Brother, may be a fornicator, covetous, idolater, railer, extortione [...], drunkard, &c. 1 Cor. 5.11. I do not mean that such are to be countenanced in the Church, or to be tolerated; but yet till discipline have passed upon them unto Excommunication, they are called Brethren. But [Page] when I say such are Gods people, I mean onely that they are his cal [...]e [...] people, and a corrupt part of the body of the Church; they do not yet shew themselves his chosen people; for many are called, few chose [...], Mat 22.14. and therefore I grant what he saith, viz. that [continuing such] they shall be shut out of the kingdom of God hereafter, and are to be shut out of the Church here.

2. I adde, that though it be far from my purpose to speak any thing in favour of profane people (whom our Ministry doth still testifie against) yet it behoves him and his company to consider whether such men as are opposers of the truth of God, and run themselves out of all right religion, be not as guilty by the sentence of Scripture Act. 13.10. Gal. 5.20. Heresies., as they that order not their conversation according to the Rules of Scripture; and yet we dare not say they are none of Gods people, but wish their conformity to that holy calling and truth of God, whereof they are made partakers.

But let the Reader mark that he that pretends to be a replier to what I set before him, doth not so much as mention the intire proof which I brought, that Baptism is an Infants due. Its the most compendious way to brand that with folly which a man cannot answer with reason. I shall therefore my self, for the Readers sake, transcribe in the close, the whole argument as it was in my letter.

Christ by the Apostle P [...]ul commands, saying, Render to all th [...]i [...] d [...]e. But Baptism is an Infants due.

Which I prove thus,

If the Infant of a believing Parent be as soon as it is born, a holy child, and hath a right to the Covenant, then the initiating seal of the Covenant is due to him also.

This sequel I prove because he that is an holy child (to wit by federal holiness) ought to be declared so to be, by putting that mark upon him, by which Gods holy people are outwardly distinguished from Heathens. And he that hath a right to the Covenant, should be possessed of his right, that is, be taken in Gods way into the number of Gods Covenant-people.

[Page]I assume,

But the Infant of a believing Parent is as soon as it is born, an holy child, 1 Cor. 7.14. And hath a right to the Covenant; for this is the tenour of it, To be a God to thee and thy seed after thee, Gen. 17.7. therefore the initiating seal of the Covenant (which declares him to be one of Gods, and solemnly puts him into the number of Gods people) is due to him also.

Upon this ground of the everlasting Covenant (besides divers other reasons) we administer Baptism to Infants as their due, and as our duty by vertue of this general command, Render to all their dues.

It comes now to be examined whether the Scriptures be the ground of faith.

T.S. EIther it is written that the Scriptures are the ground of faith, or it is not; if it be written, why had you not quoted the particular Scripture in which it is w [...]itten? Pag. 19

W. T. A. I told him it was necessarily deduced from Scripture, and for that cited divers Texts. I therefore demand of him, The Scriptures brought by me to prove themselves the ground of faith, either do prove it, or do not: If they do not, why doth not he shew wherein they fail; but onely make out-cries? If they do, why doth he not acknowledge the truth?

T. S. How wretchedly do you abuse that place, 1 John 5.10. saying, Pag. 19 That the record there spoken of is the Scripture, when as the very Scripture it self giveth you the lye, saying, That the record and witness there spoken of is within the Saints, which record the very next v [...]rse there expresseth to be eternal life which God hath given to the Saints; and is paper and ink within the Saints, or are they eternal life?

[Page] W. T. A. Its wonder he should talk of lying to another (who whilst he is doing it) tels three untruths himself. For, 1. I did not say, The record there spoken of is the Scripture, but in the Scripture is [...]aid up the record which God hath given [...]f his Son. And that the Scripture I put in the margin, John 5.39. plainly proves; for Christ saith there, the Scriptures testifie of him. 2. It is a worse falshood, and of an higher nature, to say the Scripture gives any man the lye, when there is no such matter (that is to abuse him and Scripture too) and so it is here; for what if this Scripture say that a Be [...]iever hat [...] this witness within himself? doth that give him the lye who saith it is without? may not the same thing be both without and within us in divers respects, and in different wayes? Explicat testimonium quod & Deus a coelo, & fidelibus sua conscientia a [...]piritu edocta dictat. Beza in 1 Iohn 5.11. Psal. 119.11. Col. 3.16. Is not Christ now without us, that is ascended far above all heaven [...], Eph. 4.10, Acts 3.21. and yet within us, (i) dwelling in our hearts by fait [...]? Eph. 3.17. so is the witness of Jesus Christ laid up and held forth in Scripture, [...]saiah 53.1. John 5.39. but yet it is within the Believer also, that is, received into his heart by faith, Luke 8.15. and is firmly imprinted upon his renewed soul and conscience by the holy Ghost, 1 Cor. 3.3. 3. He saith, that this very Text expresseth this record to be eternal life, and that's false too; for the Apostle doth not say, This record is eternal l [...]fe, but This is the record that God hath given to us eternal life. Now, to be eternal life, & to be the record of it (declaring and witnessing that it is given of God, and where it is to be had) are distinct things.

But his last words may not be lightly passed over, wherein he saith, Is paper and ink within the Saints, or a [...]e they ete [...] nal life? This is the right, but the sad language of the blaspheming quakers; for hath it not reference to those first words to wit, that the reco [...]d spoken of 1 John 5.10. is the Scripture? This he refutes (after his fashion) because it is within, and because it is eternal life; And then addes, Is paper and ink, (i) Is the Scripture within the Saints? or, Is that eternal life? In the page before this, he is highly displeased, because some of his Informers told him that I suggested he denied Scripture (to which I have spoken before in answer to his Epistle.) But,

[Page]But here the Reader may see he doth not deny Scripture, for he acknowledgeth it to be ink and paper. Now I grant that heavenly truths are written with ink, in paper, (as John 3. v. 13.) but (for all that) there's a Spiritual and saving sense and meaning in them.Acts 7.38. A Malefactors pardon is written with pen, ink, and paper, but his life is laid up in it, which yet ink and paper could never help him to. Have we not all cause to tremble that there is a generation of men risen up amongst us, [...] (i) [...]. Beza. who do so vilifie that word of God, which is quick and powerful, and sharper then any two edged sword? Heb. 4.12. which David hid within his heart (and yet he did not hide ink and paper there) that he might not sin against God, Psal. 119:11: Are the great things of the word and Gospel of God, which are said to be the power of God Rom. [...].16., to convert the son, rejoyce the heart, enlighten the eyes Psal. 19.7, 8., wh [...]ch are able to make wise to salvation 2 Tim. 3.15., come to be nothing else but paper and ink? was ink and paper sweeter to David then the ho [...]y and the hony comb? Ps. 19:10: & 119.103. Doth not Christ say that the Scriptures testifie of him? John 5.39. But if all the ink and paper in the world were brought into America, would that (without any thing else) testifie of Christ to the poor Heathens there? let quakers quake to think that by this word Christ will [...]udge the world, John 12.48. and ink and paper (if there were no more) never drew any [...]a [...] to execution in a way of justice. Doth this Writer and Railer on the Ministry of this Nation, and that offers such indignity to Scripture, think he hath nothing to answer for, but the wasting of so much ink and paper? I wish, he may think of more.

Yet, it may be granted that the Law works not without Gospel-grace; nor the Gospel [to salvation] without the sanctifying spirit. But it is (notwithstanding) without that grace and spirit, an informing word Mic. 6.8. Ephes. 6.4., a convinc [...]ng word Tit. 1.9., and the savour of death to death 2 Cor. 2.16., none of which can be reasonably ascribed to a poor thing, called ink and paper.

[Page]T. S. Was there not faith, and was not Jesus Christ before the written word? and yet must that be first believed or, and be the ground of our faith?

W. T. A. To leave out his empty exclamations; he may know that the question is not what men were to do before the word of God was written (then they were to ground their faith upon it as it was delivered then, though not written) but what we are to do unto whom it is written. The Word of God being now written, I must first believe it before I believe in Christ; for how can any rest his faith on the person testified of, if he do not believe the testimony?

T. S. Is not the foundation spoken of Eph. 2.20 that Jesus which was both preacht and believed on by the Prophets and Apostles?Pag. 20

W. T. A. The foundation spoken of in the latter part of the [...]. and expressed by the chief corner stone, is Christ alone. The foundation spoken of in the former part of the v. is (if we speak of the essential foundation, or the personal foundation) Christ also, whom the Prophets and Apostles preached, and held forth as the sole foundation for believers to build up; but if we speak of the doctrinal foundation, it is the word of God delivered by the Prophets and Apostles The word of the Prophets and Apostles was the foundation teaching; Christ himself, the foundation taught; so that to say we are founded on the Apostles and Prophets, that is, on their doctrine, and that we are founded on Christ, is upon the matter all one; Vide T [...]. Aquinatem in commentariis ad locum hac de re plene, & (ut plurimum) probe disserentem. for their doctrine was in sum, Christ; onely, there is this difference, the doctrine is the immediate foundation, Christ the [...]l [...]ima [...]e, on that we build our faith; on this our selves.

But the business in hand will be more plainly made out (to those Christians whom I would assist) by answering two questions.

1. qu. How can the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles be called a foundation?

A. Because we are to build our faith upon that doctrine; when Christ saith, Upon this rock will I build my Church; [Page] I conceive, it is rightly understood thus; upon this truth (preached and manifested to the world) to wit, Thou art the Christ the true Messias and Son of the living God; Will I (as upon a Main ground-stone) found the faith of all Believers, Vid. Musculum in Mat. [...]6.28. or I will cause the doctrine of this self same faith to be the foundation of my Church Diodat. in loc.. This is agreeable to our ordinary manner of speaking, which is, Build upon my word, this shall be done for you; If a King shall speak such words to a subject, he fals to building presently on that foundation; such a foundation, and infinitely above that, in firmness and stability is the Word of God, which faithful men therefore build upon, as the people sometimes leaned and rested on the words of H [...]zekias, 2 Chron. 32.8. with Judg. 16.29. (where the same original word is used.)

2. Qu. How doth it appear that this doctrinal foundation is spoken of or is to be taken notice of in this Scripture?

A. Because Apostles and Prophets are named; and why should they be named but to point at their Ministry, and the main part thereof, namely, the manifestation of Jesus Christ (both to come, and already come) upon which manifestations Believers have ever built, and so setled themselves on the Rock Christ.Ca [...]v. in Eph. 2.20. & Diod [...]. This is it that Calvin marks; He doth not (saith he) name Pa [...]riarchs or Godly Kings, but onely those that had the office of teaching, and that were set over the Church for the building thereof; [...] therefore he concludes, that the faith of the Church ought to be founded on this doctrine.

To conclude this, I shall not deny that in these words, The foundation of the Apostl [...]s and Prophets, Christ is principally intended; All that I contend for, is, that the doctrine and Ministery of the Apostles and Prophets is here also included, and contained under the name of Foundation, as that which is no way opposite, but subservient unto the great foundation Jesus Christ; for first our faith is built upon the word of God revealed to and by the Apostles and Prophets, and then, and in that way, our persons are built upon the Son of God. And thus were the Ephesians built [Page] on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, to wit, by receiving their doctrine by faith Eph. 2.17, 18 19.20., and by being thereby put in as living stones into that spiritual Temple, whereof Jesus Christ is the Foundation, in regard of superstruction, and the corner-stone in regard of coagmentation, union, and coalition of Jews and Gentiles.

T. S. Could you so confiden [...]ly give Paul the lye, Pag. 20 who saith expresly, Other foundation then Jesus Christ can no man lay?

W. T. Christ alone is the foundation revealed, whereon to build my person; The Scripture is but the foundation revealing, whereon I build my faith; I shall ever say that the only person the Church is built on, is the Son of God; but that I may build on that person, I must have such an infallible revelation of him, as I may firmly build upon.

T. S. Doth not Calvin conclude you to be a lyar, who saith in terminis that the Apostle doth in that Scripture intend Jesus Christ to whom the Prophets and Apostles did bear witness? Intelligit Iesum Christum cui testimonium tulere Apostoli & Prophetae. Calv. in locum.

W. T. A. He cannot speak like a Christian, that is,Pag. 20 meekly, or like a Citizen, that is, civilly; he must speak like a quaker, of whose Religion, rudeness is one part; but still he is unhappy whilst he speaks of lying; for how can Calvin conclude me to be a lyar with those words which he never spake? And what he cites out of Calvin is not to be found in him; but in Calvin upon that place, I mean on Eph. 2.20. these words are to be found [Qu [...] fundamentum hic pro doctrina sumatur minime dubium est] that the word [foundation] in this place is to be taken for doctrine (that is, for the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets) is not at all to be doubted of; for which he gives his reason before mentioned, and then concludes, Itaque docet Paulus fidem ecclesiae in hac doctrina debere esse fundatam: therefore Paul teacheth that the faith of the Church ought to be founded in this doctrine. But suppose some other interpreter speak the words that he puts upon Calvin, the matter is soon answered; for Christ is the foundation witnessed, the word [Page] of the Prophets and Apostles is the foundation witnessing▪ or the fundamental doctrine giving testimony of Jesus Christ.

W.T. There's a double foundation, 1 personal or real; that's Christ. 2. doctrinal or declarative, that's the Scripture.

T. S. If the Scripture be no real foundation, it is then imaginary; Pag. 22 for that which is not real, is imaginary.

W. T. A. His silence had been better then his sophistry. Is the story of a thing (the whole story of Scripture) nothing but an imagination, because it is not the thing acted. Had he had as much mind to understand as he had to cavil, he might have seen that I did not oppose real to imaginary, but to declarative, and that my plain meaning was, that Christ is the person or the thing whereupon we build our selves, but the word whereupon we build our faith, that we may build our selves upon that thing or person, is the doctrine and declaration of Scripture.

T. S. You go on to distinguish between Gods testimony and Gods truth, Pag. 23 Is not his testimony his truth?

W. T. A. Its true, I make a distinction, but he falsly cries out that I creat an opposition, and then runs on to poure out his pulpit-hatred he cares not how; I onely ask him this question, When he receives letters from France or Spain, is there no difference between the things themselves whereof the letters speak, and the letters and lines that testifie of those things?

T. S. But the ground of faith you say may be corrupted; nay, pag. 22 you say further, that faith may be lost; Is faith bottomed on a corruptible foundation?

W. T. I did not say, the ground of faith may be corrupted, but only that if the Scriptures be corrupted, they must be purged. And yet, if any man say that the Scriptures (which are the ground of faith) may be corrupted, it doth not follow thence that the faith of the Elect is bottomed on a corruptible foundation; for their faith is not bottomed on Scripture as corrupted, but as pure and clear, and as it is [Page] that word of God that endure [...] for ever having no dross in it, though men seek to mix their dross with it, which the Elect of God that build upon it, do both detect and detest.

Its worse then this, that he reports me to say, that faith may b [...] lost, when the words of my letter were, that if the Scriptures could be [...], [...]here would quick [...]y be found a loss in faith; And hath not he wit to distinguish between a loss [in] it and a loss [of] it, between less and nothing?

T. S. ‘You confess that the Scriptures were not the ground of Abe [...], Enock [...], and Noahs faith;See the sober answer to an Epistle of T. S. page 73. and if they were not the ground of their faith, then neither were they the ground of any of the Saints faith since them; for that they and all the Saints since have the same foundation, and are built on the same Rock, which can never be removed nor corrupted, as you do most absurdly assert.’

VV. T. A. The name Scripture denotes and contains two th [...]ngs in it; 1. The revealed will of God. 2. The written will of God. The revealed will of God is the foundation of Saints faith from the beginning to the end of the world, but in a different manner, viz. as delivered by God without writing in the first times, but in writing since; and being now delivered in writing, that written word is now the ground of Saints faith.

2. Unto this argument This is just like the old Popish argument for trad [...]tions, B [...]llarm. tom. 4. lib. De ve [...]bo Dei non scripto, c. 4. answerd by VVhi [...]tak. controvers. de Scripturae perf [...]ctione c. 7. quaest. 6 and the fallacies in it discovered. I answer, That all Saints (former and later) have the same foundation in regard of the substance, but not in regard of the manner of communication. The ground of the faith of the first Saints, was the revealed will of God unwritten, since the same will of God revealed and setting forth the object of our faith, in and by writing, that is, the doctrine contained in the old and new Testament, about which two things are considerable, 1. something inward, and that is the immutable truth of God. 2. Something outward, and that is in the writing, by which it is exactly presented unto the Churches view; when we say the Scripture is the ground of faith, we put both together, and say it is the word of [...] God as writter, [Page] and communicating unto us in that way, the doctrine of our salvation.

3. I never asserted, nor ever thought to say that the Rock (whereon our persons are built) can be removed; yet it may be granted that the Scripture (on which our faith is founded) may be corrupted, though our faith be not grounded on corrupted Scripture.

T. S. Did ever any of those called Quakers say that the Word of God was not the ground of Abrahams faith, and still is of the faith of all Saints?

VV. T. In that book (which was the occasion of writing my first letter) called, The fiery darts of the d [...]vil quenched VVritten by Fran. Hougil., there are these words Pag. 19., This again I affirm, as before I did, that the Scriptures is not the Saints Rule, but the Spirit that gave forth the Scriptures; we walk as Abel, Noah, &c. by the immediate Spirit of God, which was before those Scriptures were w [...]itten. Here I observe two things, 1. That this Quaker saith the Scripture is not the Saints Rule, which is all one as to say the Word of God is not the Saints Rule, for the Scriptures are the Word of God; Christ calls the written Law of Moses the Word of God, which the Pharises made of none effect by their traditions. Ma [...]k 7.10, 13. The Scripture speaks Rom. 4.3. and whose words doth it speak but the words of God? Rom. 10.17. 2. I observe here, that though he do not say, The word of God is not the Saints Rule, but onely that the Scripture is not, yet the same reason why he holds the Scripture not to be the Saints Rule, to wit, because we must walk by the immediate spirit of God, excludes the word of God also; for the Word and Spirit are different things, Isa. 59.21.

T. S. Pag. 24 Because Christ saith to the Jews that they thought they had eternal life in the Scriptures, did he therefore direct to look for life in them? Christ telleth his Disciples that the time should come, that whosoever killed them should think he did God service; and will you thence gather this doctrine (which is as true as the former) that Christ in that Scripture directeth men to kill his Disciples?

[Page]W. T. A. Is there the same reason between these two? were not their thoughts right in the one, but altogether unrighteous in the other? Doth not Christ approve the one, and condemn the other? Are not the thoughts which Christ approves right, because the same men have other thoughts which Christ condemns? They thought rightly that eternal life is laid up in Scripture Deut. 30.19. & 32.47., for it is said, Hear and your soul shall live, Isaiah 55.3. and of that song, and of those words of the Law which Moses wrote, Deuteronomie 31.22, 24 it is said, it is your life, [...]euteronomy 32.46.47. Therefore from their own right concession Christ presseth them to search the Scripture; and shews further, how that eternal life (which they truly thought was to be had there) was to be had and enjoyed of them, to wit, by their testify n [...] of him.

Unto this my Letter spake further, which he lightly passes over; for a mans easiest way is, to slight that wherein he cannot satisfie.

T.S. Cant at eternal life which alone is to be had in Christ, Pag. 25 b [...] yet had in Scrip [...]ure, and in that which is not Christ? where had you this rare piece of Logick, That that wh [...]ch is to be had in one thing, is yet to be had in anothe [...]?

W.T. A. Here are great words; but he must know, and men of understanding do know, that it is not against Logick nor any right reason, to say, that what is alone to be had in one thing, in one sense, may yet be had in another▪ to wit, in another sense, and in another war, as Deut. 30.20. it is said of God, He is thy life; and we may truly add, He only: Psal. 36▪9. Ioh. 8.32. And yet it is said, Deu [...]. 32.47. It is thy life; that is, the Word of God: So Prov. 3.18. and 4.22. in like manner, The Son makes fre [...], Jo [...]. 8.36. that is he only, for who else is the Redeemer? and yet that Redeemer saith, The Truth shall make you free: So God is a Saviour, and there is none beside him, Isa. 45.21. and yet men are ordinarily called Saviours, Judg. 3.9. 1 Sam. 14.45. Obad. v 21. Thus the life of a condemned Malefactor lies only in the mercy of the supreme Magistrate; and yet it lies also in the pardon sealed, [Page] as the Instrument reaching forth the Magistrates mercy for the Malefactors safety

T.S. The Scriptures testifie of Christ; but is life therefore to be had in them? Pag. 25 Is the d [...]c [...]aration touching any thing the thing it self?

W.T. A. Whether it be the thing it self or no, its the means of obtaining it; as the declaration of plenty in Egypt shewed life was to be had there, & directed a famished creatures to repair thither for it: So the Scripture declaring the way of life (with a purpose also in God, in that way to bring men to it) it is said truly to help us to life, the rather because the Scripture not only declares the person in whom life is to be had, but shews also what manner of persons we should be; yea and puts us also (through the Grace of God) into a capacity, that we may receive it from him, John 20.31. yea such a neerness there is between the word of life and life it self, that he who is our life saith, I kn [...]w that his commandement (that is, that doctrine of the Father which himself was to deliver) is everlasting life, John 12.50

W. T. I would ask you this one question, whereupon must I believe that Christ is the true light that lightens every man that comes into the world?

T. S. ‘I ask you again whether that all the holy men of God from Abe to [...],Pag. 26 who spake those words, did believe that Christ was the true light? if they did, then I demand on what ground did they believe it? and on what ground did John himself, who spake the words, believe the truth of them?’

W. T. A. Here are shuffling things; instead of answering one question of mine, he puts me to answer two or three of his. I shall not slide out of his questions as he doth out of mine, but answer him, that the holy men of God to whom that truth was revealed extraordinarily (as to John and the pen-men of Scripture such truths were) believed them because of that extraordinary Revelation; they to whom any such was revealed before the word of God was written, believed it because of the certainty of those wayes [Page] of Revelation which God was pleased to use then; but since the Church of God hath had the Scriptures, holy men have believed the truth of God, and this in particular (after it pleased God to record it) because of Scripture-revelation. But after this answering of his questions, I must call him again to mine, and ask him once more, w [...]e [...]eupon he believes that Christ is the true light that enlightens every man that comes into the world; If he saies, he believes it be extraordinary revelation, let him shevv & prove such a revelation, which is now as needless as to do that in an extraordinary way which is already done in an ordinary way; if he say he believes it because the Scripture Joh. 1.9. saith so, then I say still he must believe and build on that Scripture first (and so grant the Scripture to be the ground of faith) otherwise the house and edifice of Quakers will fall for want of a foundation. And so it will howsoever, because howsoever that be an excellent and established truth, yet they build [...] wood, hey and stubble upon it.

After he hath spoken his pleasure of what he calls my dro [...]sie interpretations (which whatsoever they be, were occasioned by his jugling expressions) he comes further to lay open himself thus.

T. S. I own no Relig [...]on but th [...]t which teacheth a man to fear the Lord, and work righteousness, Pag. 20 to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep hi [...]self unspotted of the world; Christ is the light of the world, which I own as the founda [...]ion of my Religion, who is within me unless I be a Reprobate.

W. T. A. Here's the account of his Religion; may not a man make as fair a profession as this is, and yet come short of salvation? But I shall explicate my self.

1. I grant that they who truly fear God, are the persons that shall be saved; but no man fears God truly that doth not so reverence the Lord Jesus and his righteousness, as therein alone to look for his salvation, Phil. 3.9.

2. I say that the fear of God and the working of righteousness are evidences to a man of his good estate, and Gods way wherein to come to salvation, but they do procure [Page] our happiness, neither will any wise man rest upon them for the obtaining of salvation, Gal. 5.2. Isa. 64.6.

3. It's wonder he should own such a Religion as saith nothing of faith, when that is a chief lesson that the Gospel teacheth for a sinners salvation, Mark 16.16. 1 Tim. 1.16. This is an old Popish trick, to make much of the doctrine of St. James (in a mistaken interpretation) and to lay aside the doctrine of St. Paul in its true sense, Rom. 3.28. when they should join both together, and ascribe to [...]aith the justification of men as sinners and to works, their justification as believers, Jam. 2.22.

4. Whereas he saith, Christ is the [...]ight of the world, which I own as the fou [...]dation of my Religion, who is within me. The question is, whether he build his Religion and salvation on that Christ [who] is within, or on Christ [as] he is within, that is, on that of Christ which is within; I grant that Christ is in us, except we be Reprobates, but its true also that Christ doth not save us [as] within us, nor by any thing he hath put within us, as if that were the cause of our salvation or Christ by that; for, how can that save us which is imperfect, & which needs a Saviour? It is therefore Christ without us, that saves us, & that by what he wrought without us that is, by dying for our sins, and rising again for our justification; nor doth grace reign to eternal life, any other way then through Christs righteousness made ours by faith, Rom. 5.21. which clearly appears in converted Paul, within whom Christ was abundantly; he feared God and wrought righteousness, and yet he desires to be found not having his own righteousness, which is of the Law, but that which is through the f [...]i [...]h of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith, Phil. 3.9.

T. S. That you may know my Religion will bear the trial, I do hereby declare my self free and willing, Pag. 28 upon seasonable notice to appear in the midst of your Congregation, or in the presence of the whole County to have my principles tried by the Scriptures of truth.

VV. T. A. 1. It seems he thinks now the Scripture is the [Page] touchstone, or Rule to try things by, whether they be of God or no.

2. He hath been in my Congregation once already, which (considering his sad Apostacy since) I am sorry for; and shall not have to do with him there again, nor by way of dispute any where else I have not been used to tumultuous things, nor is it like his conference will be better then his writing; and then let others judge whether it be fit a Congregation (especially a whole County) should be called together to hear it. I began with him in writing, and shall walk with him no other way, nor long in that, but shall leave him as a man whom no conference or writing is like to do good upon, unless the Lord be pleased to change his heart, which I should be most glad to see.

T. S. Can [...]ny man be said to own the Spirit that breathed f [...]rth the Scripture, and living the life of Christ, and yet disown the Scripture which is the testimony of that Spirit and that Christ? In my Letter there were divers things to detect his deceit, which hef [...]irly leaves and onely catche [...]h at this close: that which he undertook was, to give his Testimony concerning Scripture; why did he not do it, but talk of owning the Spirit, and liv [...]ng the life of Christ, which are things beside the point in hand?

W. T. A. I grant that they that truly own the spirit breathed forth the Scripture, and live the life of Christ, will also own the Scripture, yet are these two distinct things though they meet together, and agree in the same person. But I answer further, that a man may own the Sgirit in profession that breathed forth the Scripture, and yet not own the Scripture as we see in Z [...]dekia, that owned and arrogated the Spirit of the Lord, and yet disowned and detested what Michaias spake by that Spirit, 1 King. 22.24, 28. 2 Thes. 2.2. so quakers talk much of the Spirit, and yet instead of owning the Scripture, their design is found to be to depend upon an unwritten word immediatly dictated to them within themselves, proceeding from him who is (as they say) the word from the beginning, and is the life, and is manifested (as they give out) within them, as to the Apostles. [...]am. Eaton [...] answer to the quakers 19. queries, pag. 20. Yea, they do little less then deride the Text of Scripture, calling Ministers in contempt, preachers of the letter. when as they preach those spiritual truths that be contained in it; yea, one of them makes this out-crie. All people [Page] cease from their outside lights, and return to the light of Christ in you; and this light is not a chapter without you in a book, &c. Perfect Pharisee p. 20. out of James Nayler, in a book called The glory of the Lord shining out of the north.

Of the word Sacrament.

T S. Pag. 30 [SAcrament] principally signifieth the Oath by which Souldiers of old bound themselves to be faithful to their Captains; and is there such affinity between this word, and the word sign, seal, Antitype and example?

W. T. A. Its true that the word [Sacrament] among profane Authors signifies a military oath, which because it was accounted of all things the most sacred, yea, and went under the name also of a most holy mystery Servato etiam militari jura mento, quod est unum principatus Romani [...]sterium sanct [...]ssimum. [...]. Lib. 8.; hence use was made of the same word in the Churches of God, to set forth the holy things instituted therein of God wherein there was a secret and mysterious signification; and in special, the two New Testament Seals of the Covenant of grace. I deny not therefore that notion and acception of the word Sacrament which he and many others mention, it being very fit to set forth these Seals as they represent the covenant of grace; in which regard, as on the [...] side they assure us of the benefit of the Covenant on Gods part; so on the other side we are therein consecrated unto God, and bound (as Souldiers were that took that military Oath) to perform the Covenant on our part: But this being granted, it no way crosseth the ordinary description of a Sacrament, [...]e verbis non [...] litigandum, [...] con [...]ti [...]. which is, that it is an outward and visible signe of a spiri [...]ual and invisib [...]e Grace. Now to set two things one against another, which being rightly taken, do very well stand together, is a poor quarrel. And so is the whole contestation about the word Sacrament, it being not made any matter or necessary appurtenance of our faith; but used only as a convenient and received expression of that thing which is found in Scripture

[Page]Whereas he questioneth further, what affinity there is between the words sig [...]e and sea [...], and the word Sacrament, as it relates to the aforesaid Military Oath: I answer, the words signe and seal expresse what we have from God, to wit, the benefits of the Covenant of Grace, represented and sealed in that Ordinance: The word Sacramen (in that sense wherein he takes it) shews what God is to have from us.

As for his cavilling about my forbearing to answer his qu [...]r [...]es, I shall only say this, Pag. 32 That though questions may be asked profitably when they be asked sincerely, yet these are the times wherein many men frame querie [...] to pick quarrels; and in that respect, better some silence then more strife. If therefore I had answered none of his queries, he had no reason to be querulous; yet some I answered briefly, because that was sooner done; and by that all men may see how willing the wayward questionist is to be informed.

T.S. Did no [...] Paul and other Saints witness Jesus Christ to come, whenas he lived in them, Pag. 32 and was in them their hope of glory, strength, life, peace?

W.T. A. Christ is come already in the flesh to us, in the Spirit into us; but is not come yet, nor till the last day is to come in his power and glory, Matt. 24.30.

Of the Ministry, and calling of Ministers.

T.S. I Judge those Ministers of Christ, Pag. 32 who run not before they are sent of him, and do abide in the Doctrine of Christ, who have received that gift (not by expence of money in a University, but) freely from the Lord, by which they are made able Ministers of the New-Testament, not of the Letter, but the Spirit, who preach him in words, and own him by their works.

[Page]W.T. A. Thanks be to God, that there are so many publike Teachers in this Nation, to which this description may be justly applyed, they having received a gift to be able Ministers of the New-Testament freely from the Lord, though there were money expended in the University, that they might receive it freely [...]n God wa [...], that is, in the obedient serving of free grace, and doing their own endeavor, in reading, meditating, studying to shew th [...]mse [...]v [...]s [...], as Timothy was charged to do, who had that gift freely from God, 1 Tim. 4.13, 14, 15, 16. 2 Tim. 2.15. But how true his profession is that such men are precious in his eyes, let his precious Epistle [...]o [ [...]ll] [...]he publike Teachers in this Nation, shew.

As for the co [...]trary sort, whom he describeth and judgeth not to be Ministers, if his meaning were only to shew a dislike of men vitious in the Ministry, there be Ministers enough that would join with him in that, who yet cannot consent with him in saying such are no Ministers; becaus even among men unquestionably call'd (as te Priests and Levites were) there hath still been a corrupt mixture.

But that any tell the people (as he saith they do, p. 33.) that a heap of stones is the Churc [...], is (I think) his tale; yet may the place where the Congregation meets (which is not an heap of stones; but is, or should be a decent house) be as properly called, the Church, as that place is called the Court where Tenants do (at times) meet together to wait upon their Lord; when it is said, that the Centurion built the Jews a Synagogue. Luke 7.5. Here this Writer comes and complains, That the Elders of the Jews call an heap of Stones a Congregation (for that the word Synagogue [...] proprie congregatione [...] significat. Hic. [...] locum ubi [...]ongregatio fiebat pis. in locum. Pag. 33. signifies) But he that complains without reason, must go home again without relief.

T.S. Where is it written that one was made a Minister by ordinary call, mother by extraordinary?

W.T. A. The thing is written, Gal. 1.1. Act. 14.23.

T.S. Is there so much as mention made i [...] either of those Scriptures of a Call ordinary or extraordinary? and have you yet the confidence positively to assert that it is so written in these[Page]Scriptures? Must your dreams and dr [...]wsie meanings passe for Scripture?

W.T. A. Its wonder that this quick-sighted youth (that speaks so much here and otherwhere of dreaming and drowsinesse) should be so dull, and obtuse himself, as not to see that I said, The thing is written, and not the words are written: Why doth he not awake himself, and prove that those two Scriptures do not in their true sense and meaning lay before us a Calling of two sorts, one from Christ immediately, and so Paul was called himself (which we call extraordinary, because it was but of certain persons, and but for a certain time, and accompanied with extraordinary miraculous gifts) this the first Scripture shews, Gal. 1.1. The other from Christ mediately by the Ministry of men; and so Elders were ordained by Paul and Barnabas, as the other Scripture shews, [...]ct 14.23. this we call ordinary, as being common to all Ministers, and to continue in all ages of the Church. Nor doth this make two doors into the Sheepfold (as this caviller would collect) but two ways of entring in by the same door.

T.S You say, This distinction hath ever [...]een us'd in the Churches of God, Pag. 34 w [...]en it was never us'd among any of the Churches mentioned in the Scriptur [...].

W.T. A. I said so in an usual way of speaking, yet not meaning to extend it to all that time wherein God hath had a Church (which hath been from the beginning of the world) but to declare only, that it hath been of long and continual use in the Churches of God; and so the word ver is ordinarily used, viz. to signifie a long, and yet limited term of time, as 1 Sam. 27.12. Exod. 12.24. & 21.6.

Besides that in the Scripture-Churches there was (as hath been shewed) this distinction in the ground and thing it self, though not in the form of words.

W.T. Our gifts, abilities, and fitnesse for the Ministry (which are Gods inward call) were first tryed,Pag. 35 and testimonials of our carriage were given.

T.S. ‘Doth the Scripture any where say, That gifts, abilities and fitness for the Ministry are Gods inward call? or [Page] that any of the Saints sought Testimonials in order to their being made Ministers? or did Pau [...] & Peter keep any Chaplains to try men?’

W.T. A. 1. Is it any where said in Scripture, that faith, love, and holy desires are inward Graces? Is there not enough (therefore) in Scripture to gather that they are so, when as we find there that such vertues are placed in the i [...] ner and hidden man of the heart, & that in opposition to outward and bodily things, Ro. 7.22. & 10.10. 1 Pe [...]. 3.3, 4.2 Co [...]. 4.16. So it is in this case; Paul describes the qualities of those that are to be made Ministers, which are inward, and whereunto are opposed other qualifications which are outward. These qualities (namely, abilities for, and strong desires to the Work of the Ministry) are a Call, because God plants them in the heart, as pointing to; putting them into a capacity for, and as it were, leading unto that Calling; and they are an inward Call, because they are seated in the inner man.

2. Whatever Paul and Peter did in their own persons, we are sure that Paul requires of T [...]mothy to see that the Deacons be proved (and for the same reason, the Bishops and Presbyters also) before they could use that Office, 1 T [...]m. 3.10. why are the things required in Ministers so fully and distinctly prescribed? Why is such a precise commandment given, to lay hands sudd [...]nly upon no man; but that diligent search was to be made into those that were to be made Ministers?1 Tim. 5.22. for which (no doubt) there were able and faithful Instruments and Agents employed. As for his Expression of keeping Chaplains, that's but to make himself & his company merry, who had more need to be made wise.

T.S. But who are those that tryed you? were they not such as are like unto your self? Pag. 35 could they try your gifts, who had not the gift themselves? Could those that were enemies to the cross of Christ, try who were fit to be made Ministers of Christ? &c.

W.T. A. 1. If they were (as he saith) like my self, I leave it to others to speak and judge whether they were such as he describes afterward; nor would he speak so of former-Ordainers (without any exception or discretion) if he were as careful to speak the Truth, as he is vvilling to speak the vvorst.

[Page]2. Though Tryars be very blamable in regard of their personal carriage, yet having abilities in themselves,2. and rules to walk by in their examination; they might make a true discovery in the capacity of Tryars. An Artificer may be a dissolute man in his life, and yet being skilfull in his calling, may be fitter than a man of better carriage to try those that pretend to that Calling: And as for grace and goodness (besides that many that were Examiners and Ordainers formerly were godly men) even he that we cannot say, is possest with true grace himself; yet may be so farre acquianted wi [...]h it, as to be able to enquire into the probable evidences of it: Whereof (on the other side) the holiest man that is, is not able to give an infalible character in another man.

W.T. And that there might be an outward calling, we were Ordained by Bishops that were Presbyters, and other Presbyters that were not Bishops, who were to be and wer [...] joyned with them in our Ordination.

T. S. You have well derived your Succession, and very learnedly acknowledge your self and your Brethren to be Romes Emissaries, brats of Babylon, p. 36. &c.

W.T. A. 1. He must have leave to say any thing, and it must 1 be true because he saies so, who in all his Book shewes himself a man of a deceitfull tongue. But were those Bishops and Presbyters Antichristian, that, for the testimony of Jesus, were buried in Antichristian flames? Or divers others that have imployed themselves from time to time since that time, in the opposing of Antichrist and his antichristian doctrines; renouncing also in their practice, his waies of worship?

2. If he say they were Antichristian, because their Ordination 2 and call to the Ministry came from Antichrist, although I doubt not they that fear God sufficiently see the Lords approbation of our Ministry, by the effect they have found it to have on their hearts and souls; yet for their further satisfaction (this being a thing that is still urged by those of all sorts that are adversaries to the Ministry) I shall give this more particular account of it.

[Page]First as ordinary Ministers, that is Pastors and Teachers are from Christ, Ephes. 4.11. and the ordinary way of their ordination also is from Christ, Tit. 1.5. so the ordaining of publick Teachers in that way, was not from, but long before Antichrist;See the Divine right of the Ministry of England. p. 2. chap. 3. for we find it in Scripture, Acts 14.23. 1 Tim. 4.14. If the Ministry be said to have been under Antichrist, it is not denyed; but that amounts to no more, but that it passed through Antichrist ▪ as the Scriptures also did and the ordinance of Baptism, which it is confessed are not therefore to be rejected Now though it be granted that our Ministry came through Antichrist; yet that doth not prove that it came from him, but that it came not from him; for how could that come from him that was before him, and onely passed through him, as an Army through an enemies countrey.

Nor is it denyed, that this and other Ordinances were defiled in the passage; but its one thing to be made [...]oul, another thing to be made null and to loose their nature and substance. It is See Mr. Perkins Treatise of Callings. observed that Priests and School doctors ordained in popish Churches and Schools, were by Oath solemnly bound to confute errour, and to maintain the antient Apostolick Faith. I am (saith Luther) a baptized Christian, and withall, a sworn Doctor of the holy Scripture, and a daily preacher, whom it concerns in regard of my name, condition, oath and office, to ab [...] lish perverse, false, seducing, impious doctrines; or at least, to hinder them. And this reason he gives of his burning of popish and poisoning Sum baptisatus Christiaus atque adio juratus Sacrae Scripturae Doctor, Sed [...]t quotidianus concionator cui pro nomine, conditione juramento atque officio suo conveniat, perversas, falsas seductorias ac impias doctrinas abolere vel saltem impedire, Luther. opera Tom. 2. fol. 316. Vid. Calv. in Ezek. 13.9. Cogimur faceri penes Papistas esse ordinarium Ministerium. Books

As this (on the one side) addes little to the reputation of the Church of Rome (who though they had the things of God; yet have managed them for the devils use) no more than it added to Belshashers honour and happiness, that he had in his custody, the Golden vessels that were taken out of the Temple of the house of God, to drink and quaff in, [Page] Dan. 5.3. So (on the other side) it cannot be justly reckoned a disparagement to our Ministry received from Christ and his Apostles, and the Primitive Churches, that it hath passed through and been polluted by the Romish Channel, no more than it was a dishonour to those holy Vessels, or them that bare them and ministred with them, Isa 52.11. that they were abused to the praise of Idol gods in Babilon, Dan. 5.4. when after they came to be used according to the minde and to the honour of the true God in Sion.

Secondly I answer, That if there had been no lawfull 2 Call to the Ministry in the Church of Rome (no not for substance) yet our first Reformers and noble Predecessors, might be surely said to be lawfully called, because they being men of extraordinary abilities, spirits and zeal for God, and so inwardly and eminently qualified and called, were also accepted, chosen and clos'd with, and outwardly called by the Church of God, that is, by those Christians that were lovers of the truth and wayes of God in those corrupt times, whereby they might be truely said (as things then stood) to be sufficiently set apart for the ministerial work.

Obj. But you say Ministers are to be Ordained by Ministers and to be set apart by the Presbytery Vid. Lutheri Opera Tom. 2. fol. 554. de Instituendis Ministris. Reliquum est aut permittere Ecclesiam Dei perire si [...]e verbo aut opportere ecclesiam conventu facto communibus suffragiis ex suo gremio id [...] eligere, & orationibus ac manuum imposicionibus universitati commendare ac confirmare atque eos tum pro legitimis Episcopis & Ministris verbi agnoscere, & colere. Ita ac camero in Myrochee, in cap. 10. v. 15. Epist. ad Roman. Non officii [...] Majoribus nostris quorum saecuto & aetate caepta est reformatio, etiamsi missione & vocatione illa externa quae ab hominibus est certis formulis & ritibus veluti definita, instructi non fuiss [...]nt. Neque enim rat [...]o tempo [...]um illorum ferebat, au [...] patiebatur ac constitutu [...] [...] commmode [...] servari possit, &c.

Answ. True; regularly and in settled times and when it may be had, for Paul doth not send to the Christians of Cre [...]e to Ordain Elders themselv [...]s, but he leaves Titus to do it; But many things may be done lawfully in a confused time, and when Churches are in constituting and reforming, that are not to be allowed when they are once formed and settled. When a town is on fire every one that hath a Bucket, that hath strength and means to do it, is called to quench it. [Page] The world was all on a flame (as it were) by the popish fire; This fire was to be quenched that it might not devoure all. The first Reformers had Buckets; that is, gifts and abilities to draw water out of the wells of salvation, to prevent the consumption of all right Religion: And God put a spirit into them more than ordinary, to be invincibly stout and vigorous in that work. When the Papists therefore burn'd Luthers Books, to the hinderance of the truth, and the alienating of the mindes of the multitude from it; Ego vicis [...] ssim. instinctu ut spero spiritus libros Adversariorum combussi. Lu [...] ▪ oper. Tom. 2 p. 307. I in like manner (saith he) I hope by the instinct of the Spirit, to confirm the hearts of the common people, and preserve the Christian truth, burn'd the Books of the Adversaries, whom there was no hope to reform. Unto these abilities so animated and heightened by the Spirit of God; if we adde the consent and call of all Protestant people that they lived amongst in those times, we may upon good reason judge that (as things stood then) they had a sufficient call to the Ministry themselves; and from and by them, other succeeding Protestant Ministers might, and did receive a more compleat Call, carried in every point in scripture order

Thirdly, it is answered and declared by others, that 3 Popery prevailed not in England, as in other places; but (the Gospel being planted here by the Apostles,Vid. Jus divin. Regim. Eccles. in Append. & Jus divini Ministerii Anglicani. p. 46.47. or Apostolical men, who in all probability that they might preserve and propagate a Church, ordained a Ministry according to the Apostles Rules) there were still here some reserved even in the reign of Antichrist, who bowed not the knee to Baal, but contended for the truth of God. And (to speak more particularly) the corruptions that the Church of Rome would have introduced about the ordination of Ministers; and other Ecclesiasticall affaires, were withstood by the Kings of England. Speed Hist. of great Brit. Book 9. chap. 3. p. 446.

4 Fourthly I answer, That how far soever Popery had prevailed to corrupt this Nation, yet through the mercy of God, there hath been many years since a Reformation, [Page] Antichrist and Popery have been ejected; Ordination as well as other things, purged and ever since exercised in the way of Christ, for it was managed by Ministers (upon precedent tryall) in the face of the Congregation, and that with notice given to the people present,See the form and manner of ordering Deacons, &c. that if they knew any impediment or notable crime in any presented to Ordination, they should discover it; which if they did, the ordering of that person was to be staied till he cleared himself: There was also adjoined an earnest admonition to those that were admitted into holy Orders to do their office faithfully: I do not say (notwithstanding all this) that there was nothing defective in the ordination, but nothing destructive to it, nor giving any just reason to renounce it, or question the validity of it.

These things will be considerable, and I doubt not, prevalent with those that are willing to be satisfied as concerning our ministeriall Calling. But for the establishing of weak Christians that are not able to search into matters more removed from their capacity, they may comfortably content themselves and preserve in their hearts and consciences, the reverence of our Ministry, by the Apostles popular and powerfull argument drawn from the success of it upon their own souls, Who are manifestly declared to be the Epistle of Christ ministred by us, written not with Ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in the fleshy tables of the heart, 2 Cor. 3.3. When a proof was sought of Pauls preaching from Christ, or Christs preaching in him, 2 Cor. 13.3. there is this proof given, ver. 5, 6. If you be not reprobate Christians, we are not reprobate Ministers; Examine your selves (saith the Apostle) ver. 5. Prove your own selves; know ye not your own selves how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? And then he addes, ver. 6. But I trust (however I bid you search and put it to the question, yet that) you shall know (to wit, by finding true goodness in your selves) that we are not reprobates, but the approved Ministers or Apostles of Jesus Christ: So that the [...]eration and approbation of the Ministry go together, we [Page] justly offer to those many Christians that have been converted by the Ministry of England, the same proof though not in the same height? nor hath it ever been known, that God hath given such an ordinary and eminent efficacy to any unapproved Ministry, as he hath done to the Ministry of this Nation.

T. S. p. 36. As for that blessing from heaven which attended the labours of the Apostles, consisting in turning men from darkness to light, from Satan to God; how few are there among you that can boast of this blessing? for who is turned by your Ministry, from the evill of his waies? &c.

W.T. Here I shall not answer, but call all that fear God to answer for me, thousands of whom have witnessed and can witness, that God hath wrought that blessed work of conversion upon their souls, by the publick Teachers and Ministry of this Nation, which nothing but impudency and a feared conscience can deliberately deny; yea even here also so much of convincement is left as to say (whether with a good will or an ill will, let him see that saies it) How few of you?

T. S. You charge me for closing with them which wander about the Nation; Is it wandering, for any to go too and fro to declare that which they have heard and seen of the words of eternal life? p. 37. If so, what were Paul and Peter but wanderers?

W. T. A. My charge was and is the leaving of their callings) wherein every one ought to abide with God) to wan [...]der about and testifie that which they never heard from God nor saw in Scripture. See what one said of them, who was nearly acquainted with them: Some of them have said to me when I enquired what our Families should do, if all our callings and labours should be neglected; that truely they must shift for themselves: They are a people for as many as I know of them, wholly possest with a principle of idleness, and going about from place to place, pretending they are moved of the Lord, &c. Worlds wonder p 30.31.

As for his comparing of Apostles and Apostates together, I shall onely say this, that it doth not follow because Ambassadors travell lawfully and honourably with Comm [...]sion [Page] from their Princes and Letters of credence; that therefore Vagrants may walk which way they please, with a Pass that themselves have made under an Hedge: So it doth not follow, that because Apostles by a known Call from heaven, preached the Gospell; therefore Quakers are licensed to compass the Nation (according to their own fancy) to cry down every where that preaching.

T. S. Why do you not come where these false witness bearers are, and manifest them to others that they may beware of them; p. 38. you have a rare faculty of conquering men in the Pulpit—who never had liberty or opportunity to give you an answer. 1

W. T. A. 1. Have they not been talkt withall by divers, but to what purpose, when they have lost those principles by the owning whereof good should be done upon them?

2. Mr. Baxter in his Epistle to the Reader, lets all men know that he offered to come among them and confer with 2 them, and they refused it and so put him to write; and that's their fashion: If a man would write they put him to confer (to no end, because with men uncapable of conviction) If he would confer they'l force him to write.

Mr. Skip out of his own experience (conversing familiarly with them) speaks thus of them. Sometimes when I have desired to have had some fair reasonings with them about some things, and found they would not; I have told them they were possessed of a dumb Devill as well as a railing Devill, for Satan is all upon extreams. Worlds wonder p 24.

3. That others may beware of them, many Books have 3 been written to confute their opinions, by which though be there little hope of doing good on inveterate Quakers (they being too like those of whom it was said, Who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come, Luke. 37. yet we believe they will effectually warn other Christians to beware of their way.

Of Imposition of hands.

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T. S. YOu say that imposition of hands is a sign of consecration, and the blessing of God settling on them so consecrated. p. 40. Hath not imposition of hands been used on them that are enemies to God and goodness, and doth the blessing of God settle on such?

W.T. A. It is a sign of consecration, because used to that end, Exod. 29.10. Acts 13.3. And a sign of the blessing of God settling on them so consecrated, because we finde in Scripture blessing adjoyned to the laying on of hands, Gen. 48.14, 15. Mark 10.16. it is expresly said, that Joshua was full of the Spirit of wisedome, for Moses had laid his hands upon him, Deut. 34.29. And the gift (whereby we may understand both the calling of the Ministry, Ephes. 4.11. and qualifications for that calling) was given Timothy, with the laying on of hands, Tim. 4.14.

Yet Ministers that impose hands are far from assuming to themselves the giving of grace (which belongs to God onely) nor do they make it an operative ceremony, but whilest they use that Rite and declarative Sign, which the Scripture holds forth in the a [...]tion of Ordination, they humbly hope that through our Lord Jesus Christ, by the solemn prayer of the Churches, that blessing shall be obtained of God, which he hath formerly been pleased to give in that way. Nor is it of any moment that divers so Ordained have proved bad afterward; for, are not the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lords Supper, signs of inward spirituall grace, and of a blessed condition to those that do as they ought partake in them, though to many they be condemning Ordinances, because they reject and rebell against the Lords conditions required on their part.

[Page]T. S You prove the laying on of hands is not the foundation of your Call, To which I say; p. 41. You esteem it so much the foundation, that you judge him no Minister that hath not received it.

W. T. A. If any do judge so (which I believe he cannot shew) that doth not prove that imposition of hands is the foundation of our Call; but onely a necessary ingredient to a regular Call.

T. S. Whereas you say, that they that do assume unto themselves the name of Saints, do persecute the general company of ordinary Ministers in their scolding Books. I answer, p. 41. They who were Saints of Old did call an Idol Shepheard by his name, and a greedy dumb Dog by his name.

W. T. A. But they did not write to all the publick Teachers of the Nation, wherein they lived and call them so.

T.S. If any charge those with that of which they are not guilty, I am no Patron of them; but do judge them Revilers. p. 41.

W.T. A. I wish he may judge himself according to his own rule, that he may not be judged of the Lord; for hath he not written, To all the publick Teachers of this Nation ▪ And doth he not charge those so to whom he writes? If he charge some onely, this Book hath no reason, for some (yea many) in all Ages were bad that were lawfully called: If he me [...]n all, or say that there are not a very considerable company that cannot be charged with being Idol Shepheards or greedy Dogs, then his Book hath no Patron; for he will be no Patron of such as revile.

Of Calling to the civill Magistrate, for the punishing of the open enemies of Religion.

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T. S. I challenge you to produce me one example (through all the Scriptures) of any Saint that persecuted any for conscience sake, p. 42. or that called to the civill Power to punish Hereticks?

W.T. You finde the Prophet Elijah calling to King Ahab for a tryal, that brought many false Prophets to execution, 1 King. 18.19.40.

T.S. How do you prove the Prophets of Baal to be Hereticks any more, than the poor Indians in America, that worship the Creatures?

W.T. I did not say, the Prophets of Baal were Hereticks (nor was it needfull, for his question was extended to the punishing of men for conscience sake) but yet why may not such be called Haereticum hominem tria faciunt; Error, convictio, contumacia. Hereticks, who were habitual and most obstinate opposers of the truth; yea, of the nature of God in their most abominable Idolatry. And must the poor Indians therefore be Hereticks who never heard of God, nor were ever convinced of the evill of their Idolatrous worship, because they were so that were bred up in the knowledge of God, and had the true Prophets of God among them, by whom they might and should have been, but never would be reclaimed?

T.S. Doth the Scripture say, that Elijah call'd to Ahab to punish Baals Prophets, p 42. who was himself a worshipper of Baal? or doth it onely say, that he bad him send and gather them together; and do you read that Ahab did more than Elijah desired of him?

[Page] W.T. A. The afore-cited Scripture shews, that Elijah called to Ahab when the Kingdome was pestered and pined with Idolatry; and why made he his address to him, but to have the assistance of his kingly power, for a course and concertation tending to (and ending in) the false Prophets execution, which he, being a Prophet, did (in all likelihood) fore-see should come to such an issue; yea, this Objector saith after. It cannot be imagined but that if Elijahs God had not been known to be the God that answered by fire, the portion of Baals Prophets had fallen to Elijahs Lot ▪ Therefore on the other side, it may be reasonably said, that if God did answer Elijah by fire, then Baals Prophets should undoubtedly have the portion which in conclusion befell them, else the business had been unjustly carried, and would have become an useless tryall. Should Ministers make such address to Authority as Elijah did, what out-cries should we hear, when there be so many cryes against us, though we be in many respects on the suffering side? Nor doth it follow that because Ahab himself was a worshipper of Baal, therefore he would not give way to Elijahs design; for all the people gave way to it, among whom were divers wo [...]shippers of Baal, 1 Kings 19.18. And we know the power that extraordinary and Miracle-working Prophets had in those daies, and that there was an authority of God upon them, by which they were t [...]rrible even to Kings themselves; otherwise it is not probable that Ahab would ever have born the prophets eminently controuling language, 1 Kings 18 18. Unto this another reason may be added; to wit, the miserable condition they were in by the present famine, which came by Elijahs word, 1 Kings 17.1. and was most like to be removed in Elijahs way; for there must not be dew or rain, but according to his word, and on that it came, 1 King. 18 41. Jam. 52.8 even the worst of Kings in publick calamities were willing to take Prophets counsel & to obtain some comfort from them, though they were sharpely reproved by them (as here Ahab was) before they had it; see 2 Kings 3 13. No marvel therefore, [Page] if Ahab in his necessity closed with Elijah that was so considerable a person, so hopefull a Prophet, and one so like to contrive a deliverance in Gods way.

T.S. Besides that, the prophets of Baal were not executed by any Order or command of Ahab,p. 42. but it was the fruit of the compact made between Elijah and the prophets of Baal, with the consent of the people, &c.

W.T. A. suppose it were the event of that compact, whereof he speaks; Yet, 1. was it not Ahab that sent to all Israel to convene them for such a purpose? And the compact (for the main) was with, and was concluded with the people of Israel before the prophets of Baal were spoken to, 1 Kings 18.24. which is to be marked, that we may know whence the destruction of those idolatrous prophets arose, to wit, from the peoples agreement summoned by the King upon Elijahs motion and design. 2. Was not Ahab himself at the compact? Was not his consent in it? Yea, was not he present at the slaughter? verse 40, 41. At least durst the people have done that execution, but that they knew the King was engaged to a consent by the compact made in his presence, and made good by his sending for the people and prophets of Baal, that it might be acted according to agreement?

Now where as he saith, that if God had not answered by fire, the portion of Baals prophets had fallen on Elijah, that is like enough; but that doth not prove that Ahab was unwilling that the prophets of Baal should be slain, when the Lord did answer by fire; nay, its far more probable, (as we may partly collect from the peoples killing of them who yet themselves were worshippers of 1 King. 18.21. Baal) I say, it is far more probable that he (as well as the people) was so convinced with Gods determination from heaven (unto which we may adde the hope of plenty usually succeeding reformation) that he willingly gave way to it: And we finde he stood upon good terms with Elijah that ran before him when it was done.

The summe is; That gracious God that keeps not anger [Page] for ever, intended to remove the present drought and scarcity: This was to be done by the word and Prayer of Elijah: and it was to be done by a Reformation; in that Reformation the Kings Hand and Power was to be imployed: Upon that Reformation, and the execution of the false Prophets, a sound of much rain immediatly followed: To shew that that act of Justice (by the help of Supream Authority, called to by the Prophet) was the thing intended, that way might be made to the Lords mercy.

W.T. But I wonder what calls to punishment you can specifie sutable to your complaint?

T.S. Nay I can specifie calls both from Presses and Pulpits, p. 43. more then sutable: — Let almost every prison this day in England speak; where is there almost one in which some innocent heart or other doth not lie in bonds for the testimony of Jesus Christ, and that at the instigation and procurement of some or other of your persecuting generation?

W.T. Hees full of words in the beginning of this page, and I leave it to any indifferent Person that will read his Book, to judge whether he doth not slander abundantly in the latter end; but there is not one proof or evidence (neither do I think he can bring any) to shew that any one soul, is in any one prison for the Testimony of Jesus Christ: Nay, it is so far from this, that they that are very well acquainted with the Quakers and their opinions, declare, That they do not witnesse a Jesus, according to the word of God; but a Christ within them according to their own fancy; withdrawing men from eyeing the death and righteousnesse of Christ without us, and making that but a shaddow of that done within us. Faithfull discovery of a treacherous designe, p. 7.

Let him inquire again whether they do not bring trouble upon their own heads, either by a tumultuous carriage, or by disturbing the Messengers of God whilest they are doing their Office: the summe and height whereof is to give a true Testimony of and for Jesus Christ. And so all the clamour and calumnies that follow being built upon [Page] the sand fall. In the conclusion whereof, he who doth so abominate Ministers, would seem to have some good thoughts of the civill Magistrates, concerning which I shall transcribe their words, who shew themselves willing to have the best thoughts they can of them, Their words are these; Its not any person nor circumstance so much that is aimed at, as the Ministry it self or all outward Teachers: In which argument they discover more envy, pride, passion, than in any other: But be assured if the Magistrates had not a material sword, as the Ministers have not, their language would light as hard on their heads, and more than so A fathful discovery of a treacherous design, p. 47..

Of Christian Liberty.

W. T. ANd let me tell you also, that Christians will one day rue the Liberty of these daies.

T. S. Would you have Liberty of Conscience, and would you not give it? p. 44.

W.T. A. Ministers have sufficiently declared themselves to be far from being against Liberty of Conscience truely so called; And their hearty desire is, that tenderness of conscience (if it appear to be so) may be much favoured. But must Saul therefore be permitted to do what he pleaseth against the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, because he thinks verily in his conscience that he ought to do it?Acts 26.19, Mr. Burroughs in his Lect. in Cornhill An. 1645. (that was no friend to the troublers of tender Consciences), yet was so wise and sincere as to teach, that a man may be required to give an account of his Conscience to any in an orderly way, especially [Page] to the Magistrate. And again, that when conscience is pleaded, a man may be put to so much trouble as may take away wantonness of spirit, that information may be received. And further, that men may be inforced (though they plead Conscience) not to work for the hinderance of others Salvation. If any will seduce my wife or any near me (saith he) and it be immediately against Salvation, I would divert it by violence my self, if there were no Magistrate, or go to him if there were any. Thus far Mr. Burroughs. But it is to be believed that they have such tender Consciences that shake off Gods publick Ordinances, rail upon his Officers, prophane his Sabbaths, and sweep out of their Families all religious Exercises.

T.S. Are not you of the number of those, who (not many years since) preacht and printed Parliament and people into Arms and into blood, p. 44. for the rescuing you from under the tyranny and oppression of the Bishops?

W.T. A. 1. Here he puts me to answer for my self; I shall therefore make known that I was so far from preaching the Parliament and people into Arms to be rescued from the Bishops, that (if I know mine own heart) I should have chosen to have suffered not onely much more than I did or was like to do, but then I could have done under Bishops, or any other way, rather than that there should have been a Civil War; for besides that the sufferings of particular persons are inconsiderable in regard of the common calamity of intestine Broils; I know by sufficient experience, that such troubles as were arisen and were like to fall more and more upon Ministers by popish innovations, would have been accompanied with inward comfort, and followed with an happy issue. They fight the good fight, that quietly suffer for God and a good Conscience. But providence wrought and prest so farre by occasion of publick grievances, as that a Parliament was call'd and confirm'd that found and declared (as by the Preamble to the Protestation ordered to be printed and recommended to the Nation, May 5. 1641. may further appear) th [...]t through [Page] the designes of Romish and wretched instruments, the true Protestant Religion was endangered; subversion of the fundamental Laws of the State endeavoured; and innovations and superstitions brought into the Church. Things standing thus, it belonged to the Parliament in right and duty (being convened to consult the publick Weal and safety) to finde out a Remedy for these Maladies. There were many Declarations signifying their faithfull intentions and real purposes for the reformation and defence of Religion; the preservation of the Rights of the Supreme Powers; and the lawfull Rights and Liberties of the subjects. In contemplation of these great ends, my self (with other Ministers) submitted to that present intire Parliament; not as if the business were to be summed up in procuring a Liberty from Bishops (that was a very inferiour thing) but that which we aimed at was, the glory of God in the pursuance of all the former ends, and (which was most proper to Ministers) the advancement of the Kingdome of Jesus Christ in the Reformation of Religion according to the Word of God. Little did we think of the strange things that have arisen since; For that God that ordereth all things according to the counsell of his own will, left the consultations of supreme powers unto such differences and distastes, that they fell into a sad War, followed with the effusion of much Christian bloud, which any man that hath the heart of a Christian was so far from taking pleasure in, as to make it (when things were come to that passe, that there was no help for it) the matter of deepest lamention; and so it was ever profest to be by both parties that were engaged in the war: for my own part I was so far from preaching Parliament and people into a War, that I endeavoured what I could to pray them out of it.

2. It may be observed here that hee's earnest to extract himself a Liberty of Conscience from that fighting which he speaks against, and wherein (being a Preacher in the Army) he had more to do than other men; yet I say again, they whom he so highly reviles, deny not just Liberties, [Page] nor do any thing like that which he speaks against in his quaking language. But sure no godly man fought to procure a liberty to do what he list, and to force an open way to run himself out of all Religion. Of old, he that digged a pit was to cover it, Exod. 21.23. He that made an house was to make battlements, Deut. 22.8. Pest-houses have ever been thought neccessary in infectious times; And shall there be no stopping up of passages leading to the bottomless Pit? No restraint of soul-infecting-persons? Shall no battlements be made to keep people from falling down headlong into Quod autem vobis videtur in vitos ad veritatem non esse cogendos erratisnescientes Scripturas, ne (que) virtutem Deiqui eos volentes faci [...] dū coguntur in viti Aug. cont Gaudent. Epist. 2. l▪ 2▪ c. 17. Hell? How happy a thing were it on the other side, if people were brought to ordinances unwillingly that they might be brought to God and goodness willingly? Whereof King Josiah is an immitable patterne, 2 Chron. 34.33.

I do not speak these things as desiring the straitning or affliction of those that are so bitter enemies unto us, but as eying the extream danger they are in of soul-destruction. In which regard, I cannot but think and say; that it had been far better for them to have been compelled and haled to Gods holy Ordinances, then (by enjoying and abusing a liberty to them miserable) to have broken loose as they have done from all the bonds of Religion: and to have made those sad approaches to Atheisme that they have most unhappily made. And we see a little the benefit of restraint, and what reason there is that Authority should therein duly exert it self, by late experience: For, a course being taken by the higher Powers, that no Minister should be interrupted in the acting of his Office, the Quakers that so usually molested the publick Meetings, have forborn their former disturbances; so God is not provoked by those affronts; our Congregations are free from those distractions; and the Quakers themselves from that sin, though they come still as neer it as they dare: But hereby it appears that the interposing of the Civill Powers is o [...] special effic [...]cy for the repressing of publick provocations, and so it would be▪ also (were it vigorously put forth) for the attending [Page] of holy Ordinances administred in the way of God, which the Lord give unto Governours rightly to consider of, that God may not suffer in his glory; themselves in their last account, and poor souls (apt to be deceived) in their spirituall and everlasting condition, for want of the help of a compassionate compulsion.

W.T. Though Liberty be a good thing; yet it is not good for children. Its weaklings tentation and seducers advantage.

T. S. Would you have judg'd it a reasonable answer for Bishops to have said, p. 45. Liberty is good for us Bishops, but not for you that are our children of the Presbytery; for some of you are weaklings, and liberty is your tentation, others Hereticks and Seducers, and it will be your advantage.

W. T. A. As for the business between Bishops and Ministers, its true, that we desired Liberty of conscience; that is, to serve God without intanglement of conscience by those things that were apparently and in true judgement, Snares and oppressive burthens to the consciences of those that were neither children nor seducers: But its one thing to desire a liberty to serve God without unnecessary and apparent intanglements, & another thing for men to seek a liberty to chuse, whether they will serve God according to his Word or no. Its one thing to desire freedome from a book of sports, another thing to desire freedome from the Book of God, as not willing to be led and ruled by it, but by a light within, or as desiring a liberty from that, which that word commands, or to that which it forbids.

T. S. But why is not liberty good for the children? Is any thing too good for the Children of the Lord? p. 45. Whether do you and the rest of the Teachers of the Nation, judge your selves to be of the number of children? If you are, then neither is liberty good for you.

W.T. A. Its wonder this man should please himself with so childish a thing, that is, with a poor playing upon the word [Children;] I cannot think that he understands so little,Fallacia homonymiae. but that it is against his conscience to conceive, that I [Page] unde [...]stood the word Children in that sense wherein he [...] it: For the help of those whom such a toy may a little trouble: I shall let every weak Reader know, that by [Children] I meant such Christians as (although they be the Children of God, yet) being weak in knowledge and in grace (as all Gods Children are not) are apt to abuse and take hurt by a larger liberty, as children do, because they be children; for when they be grown up, they have more wit, and so will do otherwise. Now the Teachers of this Nation and riper Christians are in the number of Gods Children, as ch [...]l [...]ren come to maturity are the Parents children still, but they are not such children as children in in their minority [...]re, unto whom, because they have not understanding well to use more liberty, they grant lesse; yet divers such children there be, unto whom if you say, you may observe the Lords day religiously▪ heare on that day sound Teachers and no other; fast and pray on solemn dayes, [...]o preserve the Land from per [...]shing: These things you may do (if you w [...]ll) and if you will not, you may choose: I say, if you speak thus to divers [...]n these dayes, its all one as if the father and mother should say to the little childe that's at play among his play-fellowes, you may go to school if you will; or you may come in to read a Chapter and be catechis'd if you will; but if you will not, you may chuse: Its easie to know what hee'l chuse. And parents that give that liberty to a childe (that would do better as we say, if he should) are to answer for it, if he make an undoing choice.

As fo [...] that liberty of Paul which he mention, Try al things, and hold fast that which is good, we are far from denying it Christians, so the tryal be made by the right Rule; that is, the Word of God (an [...] not the warping rule of an inward light, and that be held fast wh [...]ch is found to be good and right in the judgement of the Spirit of God in the Word, and not that which is good in their own eyes. And we blame Christians exceedingly, that they have run from one thing to another, without this Tryall.

[Page] W.T. If prejudice have not blinded your eyes, you may see that there are a very considerable company of Ministers that (through the grace of God) are such as Paul speaking to Timothy 1 Tim. 3. requireth they should be; I mean, as farre as humane infirmity will bear.

A Defence of the Ministry.

T. S. I answer, that hath no weight at all; for admit that for a plea, and the filthiest Idol Shepheard in the Nation, may be judged so qualified as ▪ Paul required. He that is full of spots, will say he is harmless as humane infirmity will bear, &c.

W.T. Here's good stuff: Because a common drunkard cannot say (unless falsly and wickedly) may not therefore a David, or an Asaph say truely, This [...]s mine infirmity, Psa. 77.10. Doth he not know that there are some spots, that are not the spots of children, Deut 32 5. and therefore some that are? when I had said, blameless, as humane infirmity will bear; I added in my letter these words, unto which if you give no allowance unto others, you know not your self; but he is willing to leave out that, and shakes off (I doubt) that self-sear [...]h which being rightly ordered, would help him to see the need that sincere and weak Christians (who cannot be Quakers and plead perfection) have of that supporting truth, that there is no childe of God here upon earth but hath his Eccles. 7.20. infirmities. Nor is this any protection to prophane men who do in vain shroud their gross miscarriages, under the name of humane frailties, when as by their constant and wilfull wickedness, they declare themselves to all the world to be presumptuous sinners.

W.T. It hath ever been the devils grand design (wherein he hath palpably plaied his part in our late changes) to throw down the Ministry. Its not enough for him that Bishops [Page] be taken away branch and root; unless he root out the Ministry also, for he knows well that his work cannot go forward while their work continues.

T. S. I never heard before that the Devil took away the Bishops. p. 4.

W.T. A. As he did not hear it before now: So neither doth he hear it now. It is not to be expected that this man should h [...]ve much Logick; yet one would think he should not have so little reason as to collect; that because I said, I [...] is not enough for the Devill that Bishops be taken away: therefore I said, that the Devill took them away. If a man should say, its not enough for the Devill that Altars, Crosses and Crucifixes be taken away, unlesse Bibles be taken away also; doth this prove that the Devill took away Crosses and Crucifixes: Or, If a man should say▪ it was not enough for the cruell Romish Catholicks, that Fagius and Bucer were not alive to trouble them, unlesse they dig up their dead bodies and burn them ope [...]ly; doth it follow therefore that he saith the same Romanists took away their lives?

2. I desire the Reader to know, that I thought not of any such thing (as this Replyers figment is) when I wr [...]te that passage; my meaning therein, being onely this; that it is not enough for the Devils purpose, or that the Devil is not satisfied, unlesse under the notion of Reforming the Minister [...], he can proceed so far as to destroy it.

3. I ad [...]e, Had Bishops been taken away, according to this Replyers desires and Declaration, I mean, had the removall of Bishops been acted, as an introductory, and in way of ten [...]ency to the removall of the whole Ministry; (which all goo [...] men that had an h [...]nd in removing of Bishops abhor) than the taking away of Bishops had been absolutely the Devils work; For as God is his Ministers best friend, so is the Devill their greatest Enemy; and other opposites are but his Ministers, 2 Cor. 11.15. That lying Spirit it was that opposed Michaiah in the Prophets of Ahab [...], 1 King. 22.22 that encountred Paul in Elymas the Sorcerer, Act. 13.10. That hindred the same Paul, once and again, [Page] in his holy intentions, 1 Thes. 2.18. Its he that casts as many as he can of them into prison; and where An [...]ipas is slain, there Satan dwels, Revel. 2.10 13.

A lamentable thing it is that this Opponent, and that Adversary should be so unanimous; an [...] that this l [...]te Preacher should be a brazen faced Professor of his longings, to have the Ministry abolished; For these a [...]e his words What is the designs I must feare and tremble to act? Is it to endeavour the rooting out of your Ministry? p. 49. And why fear and tremble at it? Is your Ministry so precious a thing that it may not be pluck'd up under the same penalty, as was in eating the forbidden fruit, &c. It may make other men tremble to see that a man living under the light of the Gospel, should have so little knowledge, grace, and fear of God as to utter such words, when those persons or Nations, that seek to throw down the Lords Ministers (which Ministers are in this Nation or in no Nation in the world) as they do Giant like oppose themselves against heaven, and Gods expresse ordinance, Ephes 4 11, &c. So they take the next and most effectuall course to ruine themselves, 2 Chron 36.15.16, 17.

T. S. I shall note two things with which you falsly accuse me: The first is, p. 50. that I inveigh against humane learning: If a man say a tilestone is not fit to make a foundation: must it presently be concluded, he denies the use of tilestones?

W.T A I say he inveighs against it, because he speaks contemptuously of it, and of Vniversities, in reference to Ministerial assistance, as if it were ridiculous to say that a Minister hath any help for his work in that way; when all that know any thing rightly, know that humane learning (in the hand of grace) is a great help for the better understanding of heavenly things. I granted to him (though he runs on as if he had heard nothing of it) that learning cannot make any a spiritual man; but yet it makes a spiritual man, a better servant. But Quakers might be glad if there were no learning nor wisdom in the world: for as long as there is any, their folly will be made to appear to all men: what he saies of tilestones, shews that he never knew what it was to be a [Page] grounded schollar: For though learning be not the ground-work of Religion; yet it supplies many grounds (which wisemen use to call grounds of learning, whereof an holy mind makes good use for the justification of the things of God against the subtilties of ungodly men.

T.S. 2. You accuse me with seeking to justifie absurd Tenents. To which I shall onely say, that I seek to justifie no Tenents, p. 51. but such as the scripture doth justifie.

W.T. These are good words, and shew that the scripture is more than Paper and Ink, because it doth justifie Tenents. But since he refers himself to that (it seems as a Rule to judge things by) let him shew where the scripture doth justifie these Tenents. viz. That the Scripture is not the Rule of Saints; that it is not the ground of Faith; that the Infants of believing Parents are not to be baptized, &c.

T.S. Whether doth not the Scripture testifie that Christ is the true light that enlighteneth every man that comes into the world; p. 52. and also that he that followeth that light shall not walk in darknes, but shall have the light of life?

W.T. A. This is spoken to at large in my Answer to his Epistle (already published) and namely to the first Article of his charge against the Ministers of the Nation.See Railing [...]. p. 12. [...]3▪

For present, I answer thus, Christ enlightens men more wayes than one: to wit, 1 By natural light, J [...]h. 1.4. and so onely he lighteth every man, that commeth into the world. Now he that hath that light and no more, cannot (in an ordinary way have life; because he is without Christ, Ephes. 2.12. From whom alone life is to be had, 1 Joh. 5.11.12. 2. By Gospel-light, Now whosoever doth (by the spirit of grace) follow that light or follow Christ so enlightening him, he shall have life, Joh. 10.27. But this will do him little pleasure, whose pleading is fix'd, not on a light which comes from the word, but which enlightens every man that comes into the world.

T.S. Whereas you coat Rom. 10.14. How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? You might have found an answer if you had lookd a little further, viz. in the 18. v. [Page] where it is written; But I say have they not heard? yes, verily, their sound went into all the earth; and their words unto the ends of the world.

W.T. A. 1. The Apostle shews in that Chapter, that the time was now come, wherein both Jews and Gentiles (believing) should be saved, Rom. 10, 11, 12. But for this belief he decl [...]reth hearing to be necessary, v. 14. whereupon it might be objected. How can this salvation be extended to all, when this hearing is not extended to all? This Objection is answered in the v. 18. wherein the Apostle shews that at the same time wherein God appointed to receive the Nations of the world (together with the Jews) into a saving state; he ordained also the means, and that the word of Salvation should be heard and received of them; so that as the Sun in the Firmament (yea the whole frame of heaven spoken of Psal. 19 1.) Shines, and (in a sort) speaks to all; so the Sun of righteousnesse, in the New Testament did (by the Apostles) shine and preach to all the world, that is, as it is expressed, v. 12. to Jews and Greeks; And so the word [World] is taken in the New Testament, Matth. 13.38. 1 John 2.2. viz. as opposed to that confinement, that there was of the ordinances of God to the Jewish Church in the Old Testament-times; the sound of the Gospel (therefore) went into all the earth, or all the world (that is all Nations of the world, Rom. 16.26.) generally, yea, it was to be preached to every creature, Mark. 16.15. indifferently, but that will not prove that it reacheth to every place particularly; much lesse to every person individually.

2. If this sound went into all the earth: that is, to Gentiles as well as Jews, by the Apostles preaching, that so men might believe and be saved; then it follows that either that preaching and sounding forth of the Gospel was unnecessary, or else, they could not believe, nor be saved any other way; and if they could not otherwise be saved, then it is apparent that the light that enlightens every one that comes into the world, could not suffice to save those Gentiles, who in former times never heard of that Gospel which sounded [Page] in all the Earth, in and after the Apostles times: Dou [...]tle [...]s that Sound went not into all the Earth before the Apostles times, Psal. 147. last v. And yet the Gentiles who then lived had that inward light which Q [...]akers plead for, because they were men come into the world, therefore that light will not suffice to save, which is the thing for which I quoted that Scripture; and it is in vain for this Writer to speak of an answer from verse 18. for that shewes only what was done in Gospel times; we are sure the Gentiles heard not of Christ before, (at least in any observable generality) and yet they had the inward light, therefore that light is not sufficient to save, for why then could it not save without any further hearing?

T. S To which I shall adde these following Queries,

1. Q Whether had not the Lord his witnesse in the hearts of those of whom Paul speaketh in his first Chapter to the Romans,p. 52. convincing them of, and condemning them for sin, thought it was kept under and held in unrighteousnesse?

W.T. A. Yes, they had that in them which was sufficient to make up a convincing and condemning witnesse against them.

T. S. 2. Q Whether that which left them without excuse, did not also reveal unto them the way of life, which if it had not done, whether had they not been excusable?

W.T. A. Though that light did not reveal unto them the way of life (as I affirm the light that all the Gentiles had, did not; there being no way to life but by his Name, whom the Apostle saith was not named among those Gentiles to whom he preached, Rom. 15.20.) yet w [...]re they not therefore excusable,Acts 4.12. but by so much light as they had from the works of God, though they had none from the word of God, were left without excuse, Rom. 1.20.

T.S. 3. Q Whether were they condemned because they knew not God, or for disobedience against the light they had, in that they glorified him not as God, according to the measure of light they had received?

W.T. A. For both; to wit, because they liked not to retain[Page]God in their knowledge, Rom. 1.28. and therefore they had not the knowledge they might have had & because they glorified not God according to the knowledge they had, v. 21.

T.S. 4. Q. If they had obeyed and glorified God according to that measure of light and knowledge they had received, whether had they been condemned?

W.T. A. That's an impossible supposition, for the darknesse that was in them would not suffer them to glorifie God according to the light that was in them, John 1.5. which d [...]rknesse also they willingly pre [...]erring above the light they exposed themselves thereby to just condemnation without excuse; which is enough for us to know and acknowledge in this point, without puzling our selves with needlesse suppositions.

T.S. The thing that I charged you with, was the denial of Jesus Christ to be within us; p. 53. which charge I grounded on these words of yours viz the Scripture [...]aith that we are justified freely by the grace of God, through the redemption and righteousness of Jesus Christ which is not within us, but without us. Now the thing in controversie between you and my self, is in which of these two orders these words must be read; either thus, which redemption and righteousnesse is no [...] within us, or which Jesus Christ is not with in us, you would have them (to save your self out of the myre) to be read in the former sense.

W. T. 1 A. 1. That if I had meant what I spake of Christ, I should in congruitie of speech rather have said who is within us, then which is within us, the latter being a more proper expression of a thing, the former of a person.

2. If he had meant to take my words plainly and honestly 2 as they lay before him, with consideration of the businesse between us, he would have found no cause at all of his Unconcocted conceit; for he knows the question between us was not about Christ within, but about Righteousnesse within, and namely whether that righteousnesse within doth lead to justification? Whereupon I proved to him out of Scripture that the ri [...]hteousnesse w [...]thin is not that which doth justifie us, but that we are freely justified and saved through the redemption [Page] and righteousnesse; that is, through [that] redemption and righteousnesse which is not within us, but without us. Now, to dream of a thing that was never in controversie, and to forget the matter that is in present dispute, shewes that a man is willing where he cannot finde a fault, to make it.

T.S. Which being supposed, I demand of you two things? p. 53.

1. What number is the word [which] the singular or the plural? The singular you cannot say, unlesse you will destroy your Grammer, which saith, that many Antecedents singular having a conjunction copulative comming between them, will have a Relative plural: This being granted that the word [which] is the plural number. I demand,

2. Whats the Nominative case to the verb [is]? for which you can finde no other but the word [which] and that being the plural number and the verb [is] the singular number; pray produce me some rule in your Grammer, that alloweth any concord betwixt a verb of the singular number and a nominative case of the plural.

W.T. A. Now▪ here's a piteous accusation that I that have lived in the world 64 years have forgot, and have need to be catechised in the Childrens Accidence; but this Grammer Scholler carries it so high, that something must be said to so frivilous a thing.

In his Childrens Catechisme the [...]e be two questions: I shall need to speak onely to the first of them (whereupon the other will fall:) I answer (therefore) and can say well enough, that the word [which] is the singul [...]r number, not the plural; and yet the Grammer will scape well enough: onely, he that fears the destruction of Grammer may comfort himself with this, that there be more Grammers then one; and should remember also, that the Composers of our ordinary Grammer acknowledge that they framed it [Crassâ Minervâ] for Childrens use: It is no marvel therefore if they wrote those things that were plainest and most common, and doe for other things not so fit to be communicated to young beginners, refer them to other Gramarians [Page] as Linacer & Despaucerius) and to their own a [...]ter experience in the reading of those Authours out of whom Grammers are composed.

This being premised, I shall come to a more close and 1 particular answer, Where 1. It were enough to say, that the Relative [which] refers to the latter Antecedent; that is, to the word [r [...]ghteousness] which righteousness (though I added the word [Redemption] exabundanti) was that which I intended principally to speak of, and about which the contest arose between him and me. Now that when there be two Antecedents coupled together, the Relative, may be of the singular number, and refer to the latter, is plain from those words of the Apostle, Heb. 12.14. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which (that is without which [...]. holiness) no man shall see the Lord Alvarus de constructione intransitivà; interdum redditur Relativum vici-mori (Scil. Antecedenti) e. g. Cic. in Pis. Mihi non venerat in mentem, furorem & insaniam optare vobis, in quam incidistis..

Or the Relative may refer to either of the Antecedents as in that of Tully in the Margin Cicir de Offic l. 1. Deinceps de Beneficentia & deliberalitate dicatur, qua quidem nihil est naturae homnis accommodatius. Where the Relative may agree with the latter Antecedent or the former also, as here both with Redemption and Righteousness, it being truly verified of either, that it is without us..

But 2. I shall follow him in his own way, and let him know that Grammer must needs be destroyed if such a Syntax as he exagitates will destroy it, for Tully himself destroies it. De Offic l. 1. Humanae societatis vinculum est ratio & oratio, quae docendo, disceno, &c. conciliat inter se homines, &c. Here are two Antecedents singular, having a Conjunction copulative coming between them, and yet Tully will not let them have a Relative plural, but the Relative is of the singular number, and joyned with a verb of the singular number.

3. I adde, that this man who is so tender of his Grammer, destro [...]es it himself, page 46. of this Pamphlet, where he 3 saith. what I writ proceeded from that deep sense I had of all that deceipt, hypocrisie and abomination that raigneth in the mided [...]t of them. He [...]e are Antecedents more than a good many, and yet he will not do his Grammer right by following them [Page] with a Relative plural, But onely a Relative and a Verb singular.

And now I shall leave it to the sober minded (to whom he appeals, and whom it is a shame to trouble with so trifling a thing) to judge and determine between us, whether I had any cause to fear that sticking in the mire, which this maundy man loves to mention, or do need any such Apology as he would fain have for a fained mistake.

W.T. The Redemption and Righteousness of Christ,p. 53. by which we are Justified, is not within us, but without us; against that you▪ say (you can say) nothing.

We are not justified by a righteousness within.

T. S. SInce you are so confident I can say nothing against what you did so peremptorily ass [...]rt, p 56. I shall further offer to you by way of enquiry, as followeth.

W.T. A. I may be confident still he can say nothing; for to enquire is not to say, but to hear what another man can say; I did not say, that he could not ask questions about it, but that he could say nothing against it.

Yet his Q [...]eries shewing part wh [...]t he would say, if he knew how to stand to it, I shall briefly answer them.

1. Quest. Whether Christ be separable from his righteousness? If not, whether (he being within the Saints) his righteousness be not there also? And cons [...]quently whether he that denieth the righteousness of Christ to be within the Saints, doth not blasphemously deny Christ to be there also.

W.S. A. 1. Christ is not separable from his humane nature, therefore by his good reasoning, the humane body of Christ must be within Saints.

[Page]2. I a [...]swer positively; where Christ is in Person, there is his righteousness also: But that righteousness which justifieth us, is not there inherently where Christ is by his Spirit: And it is by his Spirit that he is in Saints not in his person, Ephes. 3.17. Acts 3.21.

2. Quest. Whether Christ be not made of God to the Saints, 2 wisedome, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, and whet [...]er is he so made to them within them or without them?

W.T. This is a Falacia plurium interrogationum. falacious and captious question, for the the things mentioned are of divers kindes, whereof some are within us, and some are without us; take them altogether and no man can say, they are either within or without, for they are both within and without; But as for that righteousness whereof the Apostle speaks (which is the thing now in question) that I say is without us, not within us; Christ is made unto us righteousness by that perfect obedience of his which is not within us but imputed to us.

3 3. Quest. Whether Redemption and Righteousness must not be there witnessed where the Seat of Sin and uncleanness is; And whether is that Seat of sin and uncleanness within or without.

W.T. A. It is enough that the sanctification of Christ be there where the seat of sin and uncleanness is. The justifying righteousness of Christ is not there inherently, but it is there efficaciously, inasmuch as it is imputed to us to take off that guilt of sin and uncleanness that is in us, and inasmuch as Christs obedience to the death of the Crosse hath not on [...]ly a meritorious but an efficacious work in it for the killing of that sin that is within.

4 4. Quest. Whether doth not the Scripture witness that Christ gave himself for his that he might redeem them from all iniquity, and purifie them unto himself? And whether is that redemption and purifying from their iniquity and pollution within them, or without them?

W. T. A. This fourth Querie is answered in the third. The Redemption of Christ in regard of the ju [...]ifying and pacifying work is without them; Colos. 1.14. in regard of the end, effect, and purifying work it is within them.

[Page]T.S. As for that Spirit that teacheth men to revile I doe abominate it, &c.p. 57.

W.T. A. Its a great matter for a man to know of what Spirit he is, How he abominates that Spirit that teacheth men to revile, let the Reader judge by this reviling Book; yea by this reviling Page, wherein he makes the Ministers of this Nation, the successors of the Scribes and Pharsees in their bloody and Christ-killing way; wherein there is the quintessence of reviling, the aspersion and expressions being extreamly high, and the charge abominably both false and foolish, as not having (in regard of the generality of th [...] publick Teachers of the Nation) any colour of truth [...] reason in it.

T. S. I know no Seducers in the Nation but such as draw men from the light, love and fear of the Lord, p 59. to listen to thei [...] own fond dreams.

W.T. A. This is a right description of Quakers, who have forsaken the ordinances of God and the Scripture rule, to follow and to draw followers to their own fancies.

T.S. Stiling him who is the onely sure Teachers of the Saints, p. 59. a pretended inward light.

W.T. A. Stiling him] I wonder who that is; sure it must be either Ch [...]ist or the Spirit: But if this inward light enlightens every one that comes into the world, how can it be Christ [...] any having lived in the world without Christ, Ephes. 2.12. Rom. 15.20.) Nor can it be meant of the Spirit, for that was not poured on all flesh, when they came into the world, but when Christ came into the world, Joel 2.28. and there are some still that are sensuall having not the Spirit, Jude v. 19. Its true, the Spirit is the sure Teacher of the Saints, but no man calls the inward light of the Spirit a pretended light, but the inward light of the Quakers.

T.S. I wish eternall good t [...] your pretious Soul and rest. &c.

W.T. That's a good wish: only I must minde him,p 60. that he wish it really, he must wish it in such a way as is like to attain that end, which is not (as he saith it is) by abiding [Page]faithfull in the measure of light received, for no man shall come to heaven by his own faithfulnesse, (though that be necessarily required) but by faith in Jesus Christ, Mark 16.10. Ephes. 2.8.

To conclude (together with him) I thank God I can truly say that I most heartily desire that to him which he wisheth to mee, whereof there being no hope but only this, that To God all things are possible. I doe therefore humbly pray that omnipotent God, to enlighten his understanding (with a better light then every man hath that comes into the world) to sanctify his heart, to awaken his conscience, and by one happy means or other to lead him out of those dangerous delusions wherein he is detained, and which are so preparitory to everlasting misery; and to set him in the right Scripture path, and way of life, that so his precious soul may be saved in the day of Jesus Christ.

A Postscript: A little to acquaint the Reader with some passages published by Thomas Speed in a late Pamphlet, Entituled (I know not with how good sense, I am sure with little truth) The Guilty covered Clergy man unvailed.

[Page]

WHen Thomas Speeds first Reply was Printed, I left it to all that had any sense of Religion to consider whether ever they knew so strange and ugly a thing brought to Bristol-fair. I did not blame him As he would have the Reader think, p. 9. for bringing a Book thither at the Fair, for to every thing there is a season, but for bringing a Monster thither, that is, such an horrid spectacle as was never (I think) seen before, either in Bristol, or in England, or in the Christian World; I mean, an Epistle written to all the publick Teachers of the Nation (and that by one that was himself a late publick teacher) wherein all reproaches are cast upon them; and (upon the same account) on the Ministery all over the world since the Apostles time, as because they are not infallible; because they do not take upon them to Preach (as the Apostles did) by immediate inspiration; because they sprinkle Infants; because they take that maintenance that the nursing Fathers, and nursing Mothers of the Church have provided for them, and alotted to them; and because many in that calling are not such as they ought to be. At which enmity of Apostates, none should marvell, because Ministers stand so much in their way, and the very end of the the Ministery is to keep Christians from being carried about by flatulent Seducers in this windy world, Ephes. 4.11, 14.

But as one evill begets another, so now very lately, this mishapen-birth, is followed with another like it self, that is, very deformed as the former, but much more audacious, as being prefaced and presented to the world with an addresse, To the Parliament of England now assembled at Westminster.

[Page]And is a Parliament of England become so low a thing; or is a Quaker so high a thing; or the Ministery of England (and all Protestant Churches) so base a thing; or is the whole frame of sound and saving Religion, grown so despicable, and so friendless a thing in this Engl [...]sh Nation, that such an empty and impious invective should be ushered and introduced with the prefixing of so great a Name, and an application to so high and religious a Court and Convention? and that also to so sad a purpose? for the sum of that which their plain-dealing friend would pre [...] them to, is, to suffer him and his complices, and those whose faith they have overthrown, or can overthrow, to run themselves (quietly and without any compassionate restraint) into the hands of Satan, and out of the Kingdom of Christ; for to that issue Errour and Heresie comes, as well as Drunkeness and Adultery, 1 Tim. 1.20. with 2 Tim. 2.17, 18. 2 Thess. 2, 10, 11, 12. Gal▪ 5.19, 20, 21.

In this his last Reply, there's very little wherein the Religious and rational Reader (that shall be pleased to take a view of what I have written formerly in Answer to his Epistle) will require an account; but yet he may expect some satisfaction in regard of a personal defamation wrapt up in this Quere.

T. S. I would demand of William Thomas whether he did not some yeers since receive of his Parishioners the Sixth part of all their increase for one year; p. 54. and whether he did not urge them to continue the same for one year more — If this be true (for which I can produce testimony out of his own N [...]ighbourhood) then I demand, What shadow of a rule in Scripture he had for this; and whether (supposing the tenth to be his due) it be not extortion to receive the Sixth?

W. T. Ans. 1. The urging that he speaks of for a second year, is to my self (and any other that I know) absolutely unknown. As for the taking of the Sixth part of their increase, suppose it were true (which he shall never make good) yet what is there in it? for he dares not say that I demanded it (and it were foolish to say so, for there's no way to have it) only he charges me with receiving it. Now I thought he would have granted us voluntary contribution: what? must we have nothing neither by Law, nor by love? And is it extortion to receive? [Page] Where did he learn that the meaning and the English of Extorting [of Extorquere] is to take that which is freely given?

2 Both for the pretended receiving of this Sixth part, and the Urging to have it another year, my Parishioners and the Neighbourhood shall answer for me, who (hearing of this report) were willing to meet together and consider what truth there was in it, and thereupon have written and subscribed this Testimony.

Ubley Decemb. 15. 1656.

WHereas a scandalous report is printed by Mr. Thomas Speed Merchant of Bristol against our Pastor, We the Inhabitants of his Parish, whose names are here subscribed, do certifie and testifie that our Minister never received from us the Sixth part of our Estates. It's true, that for one year, when he had been some time absent from us in Prison, and at London, we concluded to give something more then ordinary The whole sum that year was but 53 l. 10 s. 6 d.; but it was voluntarily by our selves without his seeking or motion. And having met together and viewed the note of what every one gave, we judge that as for those from whom Tithes were due, they were so far from giving the Sixth part, that they gave no more, or very little more then the Tenth, though divers young people from whom Tithes were not due, gave what they pleased. Further, none of us can say or do know that he urged the having of that which was given this year for another year; only he desired to have the value of the Tithes in money.

This is subscribed by 18 hands of the Parishioners and Neighbourhood. He may produce the Neighbourhood (if he have a mind to it) that will witness the contrary.

I am sorry I have detained the Reader with a matter of so small moment, whereunto notwithstanding, in these dayes wherein every tale will serve the turn (with many) to make a Minister odious, there is some need to speak. I shall passe from this, remembring only this Replyer how disingenuous he is, that cannot be content to live in prosperity himself in the calling of a Merchant (into which he is laps'd) but he must also [Page] grudge Ministers that maintenance (whether by right or by gift) without which, unless they should intangle themselves in the affairs of this life (which the Apostle forbids, 2 Tim. 2.4.) they are not able to subsist; Was it not enough for him to make sure he would be no Minister himself, but he must be so cruel to that calling? which yet shall certainly stand firm with God, when all his wood, and hay, and stubble that he opposeth against it, shall be burned up.

As for those small and weak things which in the afore named Reply he objects against me, I shall make a brief return to some of them, that thereby the Reader may judge of the rest.

T. S. If fasting and prayer cast out all evils and Devils (which were the words that upon occasion I had spoken before) then there's perfection in this life; p. 14. for where there is no evill uncast out, there's absolute perfection.

W. T. Ans. 1. Men of understanding know, and ingenuous men will acknowledge, that such general expressions are to be taken Rhetorically, rather then Logically; that is, according to their general intent, rather then the words precisely taken; as Mat. 5.39, 40. Jam. 3.2. and so the meaning is, that Fasting and Prayer is a special medicine for special maladies; in so much that any thing that will be done, will be done effectually in that way.

2. (To walk with him in his own way) I answer further, That all evils are said to be truly cast out, when they are cast out in regard of their grosse acts, their reigning power, their wonted prevalency over us, & our greater & greater degrees of victory over them. In these respects it's true that Fasting and Prayer casts out all evill, but I deny what he infers, viz. That where all evill is cast out thus, there's absolute perfection Briefly, I did not mean, that Fasting and Prayer casts out all evill absolutely (from whence only that which he infers will follow) but according to our capacity here on earth; which is such, as that though all evils be cast out in regard of their dominion, yet In many things we offend all; and this writer must rule his tongue a little better (a great deal better) before he be a perfect man, Jam. 3.2.

[Page]T. S. William Thomas in the close of the 13th page is made to confesse as much of the Light as ever I heard, p. 38. viz. Christ lighteth every man that cometh into the world, though not by saving illumination, yet by saving revelation, that is, by Gospel revelation that is fit to save them, though divers receiving the revelation, do (through their own fault) lose the salvation.

W. T. Ans. I shall need to say nothing to this, but only let the Reader know how dishonest and false he is, in making me say what I never said, by leaving out that explication and limitation of it that was before his eyes, for my words are these, (and they are but a relation neither) Christ lighteth every man that comes into the world — and then it followes, that is, into the Church, or into the world collected into a Church, as world is taken, Mat. 13.38. — though not by saving illumination, &c. So that I did not speak of every one coming into the world absolutely (as the Quakers do) but of such only as are gathered into a Church.

T. S. Vnto those words of mine, Our duty is to be alwayes perfecting, but it belongs to our wisdom to know that we can never be fully perfected till our souls be among the souls of just men made perfect, p. 41. Heb. 12.23.— I say unto these words he replies; — Doth that Author say in the future tense, they [should] come (at the last day) or to those that [shall] be perfect? Doth he not say they are [already] come to those [already] perfect?

W. T. Ans. And what of all this? May it not be as well said that we are come already, (viz. by our heavenly calling and spiritual consociation) to the Saints that are now in heaven, as to an innumerable company of Angels, that are in heaven? Heb. 12.22. Besides, that he saith not they are come to the [persons] of just men made perfect, but to the [spirits]; now where doth he find that Saints on earth are called Spirits, Luk. 24.39. So that the spirits of just men are (in true and plain meaning) their souls separated from their bodies, and put into a perfect state and condition in heaven.

But when he hath abused this Scripture, he must abuse another, viz. Isa. 44.25. and the Diviners must needs be mad, because he hath no skill in Scripture and in Divinity.

[Page]To speak only of one thing more, When I had said that Paul and Peter were instructed by immediate revelation, which we are not so presumptuous as to expect; He replies:

T. S. — Poor blind man! my heart is moved with pity to him — I could even weep over him; p. 63. Hath he been preaching 39 years, and yet never expected instruction by immediate Revelation?

W. T. Ans. Here's a pang of effeminate zeal. But must a man needs either preach the history only of what others did, and spake (which he objects) or else be immediately inspired? Cannot he distinguish between the revelation of the Spirit, and the immediate revelation? If he knows not, yet others do, that the influences of the Spirit are abundantly put forth in the use of means, as to Timothy in reading, meditating, studying to shew himself approved, 1 Tim. 4.13, 15. 2 Tim. 2.15 of all which there had been no need, if Timothy had done all his work by immediate inspiration Yea Paul also [...]esired Saints [...]a [...]ers as a [...]eans of his [...]ssistance in [...]reaching, [...]phes. 6.19.. Now by the assistance of this Spirit of God in the use of means, and the continual study of Scripture, with Prayer, I have (I thank God) not without some fruit exercised the Calling of a Minister this 39. years.

Whereas he sayes, he could even weep over the poor blind man drowned in ignorance (a taking passage with quaking people) I am very well assured, that I have much more reason to weep over him, (but he especially over himself) for another matter which his Book mentions p. 23., I mean his desperate resolution in chusing rather the portion of an Heathen Seneca A (sometimes) Blaspeming Seneca, [...]hat saith, F [...]rte fortiter: hoc [...]st quo cum antecedatis; Ille extra patientiam [...]alorum est, vos supra patientiam; [...]hus that proud Stoick; De divina pro [...]identia. Cap. 6. Yet no man denies [...]im an eminency in naturall abi [...]ties. (when yet we may say, & must say of such honest Heathens, that they were honest worshippers of Devils, 1 Cor. 10.20.) then of the Christians and Ministers that he names Christopher Fowler, and Simon [...]ord., who declare themselves to be men fearing God. It seems he is of their minde, who think men may be saved in any Religion, if they be honest in their cariage; when it was wont to be said in England; They are to be had accursed that presume to say, that every man shall be saved by the law and Sect which he [Page]professeth, so that he be diligent to frame his life according to that law and the light of nature, for holy Scripture doth set out unto us only the Name of Jesus Christ whereby men must be saved. Articl. of Relig. art. 18 They therefore are against holy Scripture that are of that opinion.

Other trifling catches and C [...]vils, I shall leave, and in conclusion advertise the Reader of two things.

1. Whereas this Replyer, p. 70. complains (though causelesly) of the proofs that are produced from several writers to discover what the Quakers are; the Reader may observe that the most I have cited is out of two Books; the one called, A faithful discovery of a treacherous design, &c. The other, The Worlds wonder, &c. which Books, whosoever shall unpartially read (as I wish all to doe that would be fully acquainted with the Quakers light and life) will easily see that they write so Candidly and Charitably of them, that there is no cause to suspect their testimony.

2. I cannot but here admonish all Christians with fear and trembling to take into consideration, and to take warning by the late story of the Entrance See the Na [...]rative, entituled, Satan inthron'd in his chair of Pestilence. By Mr. Farmer. of James Nayler (that famous infamous Quaker) into the City of Bristol, October 24. 1656. With one man going bare-headed before him; and two women, one on one side, the other on the other side of his Horse, holding the reins, and leading him, singing H [...]sanna; and, Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of Israel. I doubt not but many of those that are turned out of the right way, are (in respect of this horrid height of Blasphemy) of Hazaels mind, 2 King. 8.13. Am I a dog that I should do this great and hideous thing? but this Narrative of Nayler may let them know that they cannot now conceive how far they will range and rise when once they have begun to wander and to take head. Particularly, three things come in here to be considered.

1. What it is to follow an inward light separated from, and unagreeable to, Scripture light. That's so wilde and wicked a thing that it suggests at last, to sing Holy, Holy, Holy, to a most sinfull man; for the Apology for that [Page] singing is this, They that did sing were called to it by the Lord p. 18.; and one of them saith, The power of the Lord carried me to sing and lead his Horse p. 15. Dorcas Erbury cals that wretch, over and over again, The only begotten Son of God; and then, Lord and Master whom she is to serve, for the Spirit within her doth command her to call him so p. 19.. It's true that Quakers say, they disown this abomination; but do they not own the principle that leads to it, to wit, a being led and instigated by that which is within them? Unto which what limits do they put?

2. What it is to have low thoughts of Gods word, and of the Preaching thereof, which God hath appointed to be the means of feeding his people with knowledge and understanding, Jer. 3.15. Such men quickly come to set up a Religion, and in the end a Jesus, of their own making; with this hellish Blasphemy, Thy name shall be no more James, but Jesus p. 19.: Let every one whom it concerns weigh it well. Why may not he that now speaks scornfully of bowing down and crying Hosanna to the mutable directions of the Pulpit (as this Replyer doth, p. 2.) come at length to have others fall down upon the ground at his feet (as it is informed upon Oath, some did at Nailers feet p. 23, 25.) — yea, and to have Hosanna also sung to himself. He that cries out wickedly against Ministers for persecuting Jesus, may come himself to be so wicked as to be named Jesus, and to have Hosanna sung before him; yea, he may come to such an height of pride and madness, as to take such honours, and defend the taking of them, saying as Nayler said, I may not refuse any thing that is moved of the Lord, and that their Father commanded them to do p. 15.. I wish, and pray, that James Naylers just punishment may be [foelix flagellum] an happy Scourge to drive, yea (by grace) to draw him and his company not only from the highest risings, but from the lowest root and rise of ever-increasing errour. He spake truly and wisely that said, Greg. Moral. [...] Job lib. 5.12. Blanda sunt quae Haeretici proponunt, sed aspera quae subinferunt, sicut radices spinarum mol [...]es sunt, sed tamen ex ipsa sua mollitie proferunt unde pungunt. Heretical things are like the roots of thorns, that are in themselves soft, but from that softness they bring forth pricking and piercing things. See Eccl. 10.12, 13.

[Page]3. What it is to be ever learning and never setled in a sound Religion, such are easily drawn to the utmost height in soul-ruining wayes. For which reason I shall (I hope without offence) seriously advise younger Students in Divinity, by reading Scripture, Orthodox Divines, and much Prayer to season themselves (at first) with a right Religion, lest the conclusion b [...] to have no Religion; particularly to arme themselves against that man-exalting, and God-depressing Arminianism, which is the forerunner of Popery; and that much-spreading Socinianism, which is the entrance to Atheism.

I have now done with the Quakers, and intend not to make any further return to this Replyer. The old proverb is, It will weary an old man to follow a childe. I am sure it's very tedious to walk in and out after an unprincipled man, not well acquainted with Religion at first, and led by phansie at last. If there be yet any thing that he can reasonably object, some or other (it's likely) will answer it (perhaps some honest Merchant or Tradesman that loves the Ministery as much as he hates it) If he contend only in a way of railing and vaunting, therein he must be suffered to get the better, and he shall [for me] have the last word; only, if he make any further Reply upon me, I desire the Readers to do me so much right as to reflect on what I have already done, and to view my writings before they believe his. I told him formerly that I would not have further to do with him; that is, that I would not direct my speach to him (though I meant to make Answer to his Reply) but to the Reader for whose sake I wrote; hereafter I mean not to say any thing to him or of him. Let him first answer the Books that have been printed against his phansies already, and know that those Books (how mean soever he makes them) will not be answered by Bravadoes, or by counting the sheets and making the sum total wrath and confusion As he doth in the Title page of his last Book.; nor will the arguments in them be taken off with animosities, admirations, and outcries, which are his wayes of answer.

To conclude, I am very sorry (that when my intentions were better, and I am sure I gave this impetuous man no cause by any thing I wrote or spake, to rave against the [Page] whole Ministery, yet) that I should be any occasion to him of his abominable abuses and misapplications of the Holy Scriptures, and of powring forth so much corruption and virulency as he hath done, and (by a dreadful hardness of heart) is resolved still to do against Gods Officers, and Gods Ordinances, whereof the Ministery is one, Ephes. 2. [...]. Tit. 1.5. and their Maintenance another, 1 Cor. 9.14.

‘The Lord open his eyes that he may find out his sin, before his sin finde out him — Num. 32.23.’ Amen.

FINIS.

Information about this book

Title statement

A vindication of Scripture and ministery in a rejoynder to a reply not long since published by Thomas Speed ... : wherein sundry Scriptures are explained, divers questions (relating to these times) discussed, and the truth asserted against the exceptions of papists and Quakers : whereunto is adjoyned a postscript reflecting upon and returning answer to divers passages in Thomas Speed his last pamphlet / by William Thomas ...

Thomas, William, 1593-1667.

Edition statement

1657

Publication

Publisher

Text Creation Partnership,

Place of publication

Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) :

Date

2005-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1).

ID [DLPS]

A64576

ID [STC]

Wing T991

ID [STC]

ESTC R1167

ID [EEBO-CITATION]

12626207

ID [OCLC]

ocm 12626207

ID [VID]

64656

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This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal. The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission.

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Early English books online.

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(EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A64576)

Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 64656)

Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 336:21)

Source

— A vindication of Scripture and ministery in a rejoynder to a reply not long since published by Thomas Speed ... : wherein sundry Scriptures are explained, divers questions (relating to these times) discussed, and the truth asserted against the exceptions of papists and Quakers : whereunto is adjoyned a postscript reflecting upon and returning answer to divers passages in Thomas Speed his last pamphlet / by William Thomas ..., Thomas, William, 1593-1667..

Extent

[8], 80, [10] p.

Printed for Edward Thomas ...,. London :: 1657.. (A reply to Thomas Speed's "The guilty-covered clergy-man unvailed.") (Reproduction of original in Bodleian Library.)

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