A speech of the Right Honourable William Lord Viscount Say and Seale, one of His Majesties most honourable privy councell, spoken in Parliament in answer to the Lord Arch-bishop of Canterburies last speech, and concerning the liturgie of the Church of England.

A speech of the Right Honourable William Lord Viscount Say and Seale, one of His Majesties most honourable privy councell, spoken in Parliament in answer to the Lord Arch-bishop of Canterburies last speech, and concerning the liturgie of the Church of England.

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A Speech of the Right Honourable, William, Lord Viscount Say and Seale, one of his Maiesties most honorable privie Councell. Spoken in Parliament touching the Liturgie.

A Speech of the Right Honourable, William, Lord Viscount Say and Seale, one of his Maiesties most honorable privie Councell. Spoken in Parliament touching the Liturgie.

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MY LORDS,

I Have waited to finde you free from greater businesses, that I might crave leave to speake of some thing that concernes my selfe; And this I have the more desired since my Lord of Canterburies last speech, who expressing his troubles, and bewayling the misery of his condition, and of the condition of the church of England, (for he would needs joyn them together, which I thinke he may, as the cause and effect, for the miseries of the Church have certainely risen from him) he insisted much upon this. That these troubles had befaln him through the malice of two parties, the Papists, and the Sectaries, and by those he said the Church was greatly afflicted. How farre this man will extend this word Sectary, and whom he will comprehend under it, I know not, but I have some cause to feare that I may lye under some misapprehensions in respect of matters of this nature, which how farre it concerneth him your Lordships will perceive by what I shall say. My Lord of Canterburie a man of meane birth, bred up in a Colledge, (and that too frequently fals out to be in a faction,) whose narrow comprehension extended it selfe no farther [Page] then to carry on a side in the Colledge, or canvas for a Proctors place in the University, being suddenly advanced to highest places of government in Church and State, had not his heart inlarged, by the enlargement of his fortune, but still the maintaining of his p [...]ttie was that which filled all his thoughts, which he prosecuted with so much violence and inconsideratenesse, that he had not an eye to see the consequences thereof to the Church and State, untill he had brought both into those distractions danger and dishonour, which we now finde our selves incompassed withall; Yet to magnifie his moderation, presently after the breaking of the last Parliament he told a Lord who sitteth now in my sight, that if he had beene a violent man, he wanted no occasion to shew it, for hee observed that my Lord Say never came to prayers, and added, that I was in his knowledge as great a Separatist as any was in England. My Lords, how farre he hath spit this venome of his against me, I am not certaine; But I may well feare where it might doe me greatest prejudice; I shall therefore intreat your Lordships favours and patience, that I may give you in these things which so neerely concerne me, a true account of my selfe, which I shall doe with ingenuity and clearnesse, and so as that if I satisfie not all men, yet I hope I shall make it appeare I am not such a one as this waspish man was willing to make the world believe.

For the first of these that he chargeth upon me, it may be he was willing to have it thought that I would not joyne in prayer with your Lordships, but refused such a communion, which is altogether false, for I should most willingly joyne in prayer with you. And further I will ad, that I doe not thinke but some set formes of prayer, by some men, in some cases, may be lawfully used; But this is that which I am not satisfied in, that a certaine number of men should usurpe an authority unto themselves to frame certaine prayers and formes of Divine service, and when that is done, under the name of the Church to injoyne them upon all persons, in all times, and upon all occasions to be used, and none other: and upon this ground (which makes it the worse) because these come from the publike spirit of the Church (when the Bishop or his Chaplaine shall frame them) and others proceed from the private spirit of this or that particular man.

[Page]This injunction is an [...] of power over the Churches of Christ, and over the gifts and graces which Christ hath given unto men: which the Apostles never exercised nor would assume, and yet they might much better have done it, and the same reasons might then have been alledged for it, that are now; This turnes such formes in stead of being directions, into superstition.

This sets aside the gifts and graces which Christ hath given and thrusts out the exercise of them, to substitute in their places, and introduce a device of man. This injunction of such formes upon all men, turnes that which in the beginning necessity brought in for the helpe of insufficiency, to be now the continuance and maintenance of insufficiency, and a barre to the exercise of able and sufficient gifts and graces. As if because some men had need to make use of Crutches, all men should be prohibited the use of their legges, and injoyned to take up such Crutches as have been prepared for those who had no legs. This I confesse I am not satisfied in, yet I will further say thus much: here are with your Lordships some Bishops, men of great parts, able to offer up this worship unto God; in the use of those gifts which God hath endowed them with: and certainly they ought to serve him with the best of their abilities which they have received. Let them make use of their own gifts, nay let them but professe that they accompt not themselves bound to use formes, nor to this forme they use, more then any other, but that it is free to them to conceive prayer, or to helpe themselves by the use of any other forme they please aswell as this prescribed. And let them practise the same indifferently, that so it may be manifest the fault rests in the person, and not in the Service: in the negligence of him that may offer better if he will, not in the injunction of that which is offered. And I will not refuse to come to prayer, for I take the sin then to be personall, and to reside in the person officiating only. I know not whether I expresse my selfe clearely to be understood in this or not, and it may seem to be a nice scrupulosity, give me leave therefore to indeavour to [...] it by an instance or two. In the time of the Law, when God appointed himselfe to be worshipped by offerings, and sacrifices the shaddowes and types of those truths which were to come. If a poore man that had not ability to bring a Bullock, or a Ramme, or a Lamb had brought [Page] a paire of Turtle Doves, or two young Pigeons, it would have been in him an acceptable service. But if a man of ability who had heards and flocks, should out of negligence or covetousnesse, have spared the cost of a Bullock or a Ramme, and brought young Pigeons, his service would have been rejected, and himselfe punished: how much more would the Service have been abomination, if men should have taken authority to have injoyned all to bring no other but Turtles or young Pigeons, because some were not able to doe more? In one case there might be a tollerable and lawfull use of that, which otherwise used (especially if generally injoyned) would have been most unlawfull; God will be worshipped with the fat and the best of the inwards, the best of mens gifts and abilities, which he that worships, or officiates in worshiping, is to doe at his own perill; And if it be left free unto him, the worship may be lawfull to him that joyneth with him therein in it selfe, though performed in a negligent and so in a sinfull manner by the Minister, but if that maner be injoyned, the Service itselfe is to be refused.

Now in the time of the Gospell, God hath appointed the foolishnesse of preaching (for so the world accompts it) to be the meanes whereby he will save those that believe; I conceive where there are no gifts inabling men to preach, there might be a lawfull and profitable use of reading of printed Sermons and Homilies, and in such case they might very lawfully be heard; But if some men upon pretence to prevent extravagant preaching, should take upon them to set forth a booke of publike or common Sermons fit for all times and occasions, and should injoyne Ministers to conforme to those, and use no other preaching at all, but the reading of these common Sermons or Homilies so devised for publike worship, this would make it utterly unlawfull, and to be professed against, as that which were the bringing in of a humane device and injunction in the place, and in stead of Gods ordinance, to the exclusion thereof, as the Pharises, to establish traditions of their owne, made voide the commandements of God; let it bee considered what difference there can be found betweene these, but onely this, Use and Custome hath enured us to that of Prayer, not so in this of Preaching, and therefore the evill of it would easily appeare unto us, if so injoyned.

My Lords, let me presume upon your patience so farre further [Page] as to give me leave to speake to the other imputation laid upon me, that I am a Separatist, and the greatest in England; and first I shall say of this word Separatist, as that learned man Master Hales of Eaton, saith in a little Manuscript of his which I have seene.

That where it may be rightly fixed and deservedly charged, it is certainely a great offence; But in common use now amongst us it is no other then a Theologicall scar-crow, wherewith the potent and prevalent party useth to fright and enforce those who are not of their opinions to subscribe to their dictates, without daring to question them, or bring them to any rule or examination either of Scripture or reason. And he observeth that this was too usuall, even in ancient times as well as now.

Secondly, I say that there is a twofold separation; one from the Universall or Catholike Church, which can no otherwise bee made but by denying the faith, (for Faith and Love are the Requisites unto that communion) the other is a separation from this or that particular Church or congregation, and that not in respect of difference with them in matter of faith or love, but in dislike onely of such corruptions in their externall worships and Liturgies as they doe admit of, & would injoyne upon others. This is a separation not from their persons as they are Christians, but from their corruptions in matter of worship, as they are therewith defiled; And this separation every man that will keepe himselfe pure from other mens sins, and not sin against his owne conscience, must make. And I will ingenuously confesse, that there are many things in many Churches or congregations in England, practised, and injoyned upon all to bee practised and suffered, which I cannot practise, nor admit of, except I should sin against the light of my conscience, untill I may out of the word of God be convinced of the lawfulnesse of them, which hitherto I could never see sufficient ground for; But my Lords, this is so farre from making me the greatest separatist in England, that it cannot argue me to be any at all; for my Lords, the Bishops doe know that those whom they usually apply this terme unto are the Brownists (as they call them by another name) and they know their tenents. The truth is, they differ with us in no fundamentall point of doctrine or saving truth, as I know.

Their failing is in this: they hold that there is no true Church in England, no true Ministery, no true worship, which depend the [Page] one upon the other, they say all is Antichristian: here is their errour, they distinguish not betweene the bene esse or purity of a true Church, and the esse or true being of it, though with many defects and grosse corruptions. But conclude that because such things are wanting, which are indeed necessary to the well being of a true Church, and to be desired, therefore there is none at all in being. I hold no such opinion, but do beleeve to the contrary, That there are in England many true Churches, and a true Ministery which I doe heare, and with which Churches, I could joyne in communion, were those yokes of bondage which are laid upon them taken off, and those corruptions removed which they doe (contrary as I thinke to their duty) yeeld unto and admit of, and this I am sure no separatist in England holdeth that deserveth that name. Therefore I hope your Lordships will in that respect let me stand right in your opinions. I shall now end with two requests.

The one that your Lordships will please to pardon me for troubling you with so long a discourse concerning my selfe, I have not used it heretofore, and I am not like to offend againe in the same kind, it is but once. and your Lordships will consider the occasion.

The second is, humbly to intreat of you, that where you know there is one & the same God worshipped, one and the same faith imbraced, one and the same spirit working love, and causing an unblameable conversation without any offence to the State, in your brethren, that in all these concurre with. you, you will not suffer them (for Ceremonies, and things to you indifferent, but not to them but burthens, which without offence to the State, or prejudice to the Churches, you may take off if you will) to bee thrust out of the Land, and cut off from their native Countrey, for if you thus shall wound the consciences of your brethren, you will certainly offend, and sinne against Christ.

FINIS.

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A SPEECH of the Right Honourable WILLIAM LORD VISCOVNT SAY AND SEALE, One of his Majesties most honourable privy Councell, spoken in Parliament. In answer to the Lord Arch-bishop of Canterburies last Speech, and concerning the Liturgie of the Church of England.

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Anno Domini, 1641.

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Title statement

A speech of the Right Honourable William Lord Viscount Say and Seale, one of His Majesties most honourable privy councell, spoken in Parliament in answer to the Lord Arch-bishop of Canterburies last speech, and concerning the liturgie of the Church of England.

Saye and Sele, William Fiennes, Viscount, 1582-1662.

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1641

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Text Creation Partnership,

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2003-01 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1).

ID [DLPS]

A62273

ID [STC]

Wing S792A

ID [STC]

ESTC R25796

ID [EEBO-CITATION]

09130997

ID [OCLC]

ocm 09130997

ID [VID]

42496

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(EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A62273)

Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 42496)

Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1293:32)

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— A speech of the Right Honourable William Lord Viscount Say and Seale, one of His Majesties most honourable privy councell, spoken in Parliament in answer to the Lord Arch-bishop of Canterburies last speech, and concerning the liturgie of the Church of England., Saye and Sele, William Fiennes, Viscount, 1582-1662..

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8 p.

s.n.],. [London :: 1641.. (Reproduction of original in the Harvard University Library.)

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