I Rise not up to Answer the Arguments of the Learned Gentleman of the long robe that spake last, the which were to prove some Inco­herence of the Preamble with the body of the Bill concerning the abolishing of Deanes and Chapters in respect of their government in the Church of England, who have none at all, as hath beene argued, but there are some Reasons sticke with me, whereby I doe conceive, that the Deanes and Chapters have beene, and are [Page 2] part of the Government of the Church of England, and that the preamble, and body of this Bill, therein may very well stand together; for if you take the Deanes and Chapters in their Originall, who (as it was said by a Lear­ned Sergeant over against me) were first foun­ded in superstition alike to your Regular and Secular Monkes; or if you consider them as in their prime institution to be Consilium Epis. to assist Bishops in their Government, and Disci­pline; or if you looke upon those Deanes and Chapters of the last Foundation by Henry the eight: yet certainely they are in all these capa­cities a part of the government of the Church of England; and as well the Rurall, as the Ca­thedrall Deanes are numbred by our owne Writers among Church Governors, and they are in and among themselves a part of the Church Government, and by the Booke of Re­formation of Ecclesiasticall Lawes they are to governe themselves according to their Statutes of Foundation, and to keepe them pure and entire, so farre as they are not repugnant to the Word of God, and our Constitutions of Religion. And for the better Satisfaction of this Committee and my selfe, here is a Copy of the Statutes Grant, and Foundation of the Deane and Chapter of the city of Gloucester, I have read them over, and doe finde; First, the end wherefore the Lands, and Possessions were granted unto them. Secondly, the manner and [Page 3] forme of Government of themselves. And last­ly, their severall Oathes to keepe all the Sta­tutes prescribed unto them: And because of my weake memory, please you to give me leave to reade the words in the Kings Grant, Englished thus;

Wee have erected and constituted Cathe­dralls & Colledges in the place of Monasteries, to the end, that where Ignorance, and Super­stition did raigne, there the sinceere Worship of God should flourish, and the holy Gospell of Christ Iesus should be dayly and purely Prea­ched. And further, that the increase of the Christian Faith, and Piety, the Instruction of youth in good learning and the sustentation of the poore should be forever there kept, maintai­ned & continued; and the said Deane, Prebends, Cannons, and all other persons belonging to the said Cathedralls and Colledges, are to be go­verned and ruled according to the Statutes pre­scribed unto them.

Sir, the Statutes are many, I will in briefe tell you the substance of some few af them. The said Deane, Prebends, and Canons, are alwayes to reside and dwell in the houses of the said Ca­thedralls, and there to keep a Family, good ho­spitality, to feede the poore, and to distribute Almes unto the needy, to be carefull to Preach the Word of God, In season, and out of season, and to sow the seede of the Word of God abroad, but especially in the said Cathedrall Church, [Page 4] and to have youth profitable taught there. And to the end that they may all serve God, as well at meales as in the Church, they are to have a common Table in the common Hall of the said Cathedrall, where the said Cannons Schollers, Quiresters, and under-Officers, are appointed to eate together, and the said Deane, and Chapter, are to give yearely twenty pound to the poore, beside their owne poore Almsmen, and twenty pound more yearely to­wards the repairing of Bridges and High-wayes thereabouts.

Sir, for the performance of the said Statutes and premises. The said Deane, Prebends, Ca­nons, and Ministers of the said Cathedrall, doe, or ought respectively to take an Oath; and thereby in expresse words do call God to wit­nesse, and doe sweare upon the holy Evange­lists, to rule, governe, and behave themselves well and faithfully in the said Church, accor­ding to the Will and Statutes of the Founder; and every one of them doe sweare, that he will to his utmost power, well and faithfully keepe all and singular the said Ordinances & Statutes, as much as concernes himselfe, and will pro­cure all others as much as concernes them to keepe the same inviolablely: So helpe him God, and these holy Gospels of God.

Mr. HIDE, You see wherefore the Lands were granted unto Deanes and Chapters, what [Page 5] their Statutes are, and their Oathes to keepe them: It might be thought that these men doe know no way, another, or nearer way to hea­ven than they teach us; or otherwise that they would not sit in the seate of Perjury, as it may seeme they doe, without remorse of consci­ence: For it is notoriously knowne to the city of Gloucester and country there abouts, That not one of the said Statutes before mentioned, are, or ever were, during my remembrance, kept, or the matters contained in any of them performed by any of the Deanes, or Prebends of the said Cathedrall; They come indeede once a yeare to receive the Rents and Profits of the said Lands, but doe not destribute unto the poore and needy their portion, neglecting al­together the mending of the Highwayes and Bridges, and doe not keepe any common Table at all: and in stead of Preaching the Word of God themselves, In season, and out of season, they are, and have beene the chiefe instruments to hinder the same in others. Infinite are the Pressure that many Cities neare unto Deanes and Chapters, have endured by them, and their procurement. And whereas it was objected by another learned Gentleman of the long robe, That the Deanes and Chapters are a body corporate, and that they have as much right unto their Lay possessions as any other body politicke, or any City or Towne Corporate; I am of his opinion, for such Lands and Pos­sessions [Page 6] (if they have any) which they bought themselves in right of their corporation, or for such Lands as were given them for their owne use, and I am well contented that such Lands should be left unto them; but their case is farre different in my opinion; for I have shewed you before, to what godly, pious, and charitable uses the said Lands and possessions were gran­ted unto them: And sutable thereunto you may call to minde the Londoners Case about Lon­donderry in the Starrechamber, where they were fyned 70000. pound to his Majestie, and the same afterwards estrated into his Majesties Exchequer. But upon the Writ of Extent issuing out thereupon, his Majestie, as I have heard, re­ceived no benefit of any such Lands, wherof the Corporation was seized for the maintainance of any Hospitalls, Bridges, or other charitable uses, or ought to have done, as I conceive. See­ing therefore the said Deanes and Chapters are but Trustees, and the profits of the said Lands, so ill imployed by them, contrary to the trust reposed in them; I am cleare of opinion, that by a Legislative power in Parliament, it is fit to take them away, and to put them into the hands of Feoffees to be disposed of to such pious, riligious, and charitable uses, as they were first intended: But it was said by a worthy Knight, That hee should be unwilling to take away their Lands and Possessions, untill he first knew how they should be disposed of, and how the persons, [Page 7] who were many thousands in this Kingdome (as he said) that would want bread, should be provided for. Certainely Mr. Hide (although that is not the worke at this time) yet I account it no difficulty to satisfie that worthy Knight; for I finde upon the survay of the Lands of the said Deanery of Gloucester, that it hath above twelve Rectoryes of good value, & about thirty Vicaredges, Pentions, and Portions of Tithes, which being at the first, Deo consecraota, most fit they should be still imployed for the mainte­nance of the Gospell; and therefore if those Deanes and Prebends being but seaven in all to be now taken away, will be Preaching Mi­nisters, there is, I hope, sufficient maintenance for so many of them as have not too much, be­sides, and yet to reserve as large a Salary as now they have for so many singing men there in ho­ly Orders that cannot Preach. And then there are left to be provided for, but the Organist, eight Singing boyes, two Schoole-Masters, foure poore Almesmen, and some under-Offi­cers, whose yearely wages, comes unto about one hundred pound per annum; and the said Deane and Chapter have almost the third part of the houses of the City of Gloucester the old rent of them being yearly about 175. pound, which will well defray that charge with a suf­ficient Surplusage for repairing the highwayes, Bridges; and twenty pound yearely to the poore, as aforesaid.

But over and besides, the said yearely reve­newes before mentioned, the said Deane and Chapter of Gloucester, although but of the last Foundation, and one of the least revenewes in this Kingdome, yet they have eighteene good­ly Mannors, and also divers other Lands, Te­nements, and Hereditaments, besides the Man­nors houses, and premises, the old rent of Assize of one of the said Mannors being 80. pound per annum; out of which Mannors and Lands, the said Cathedrall being to be made a Perochicall Church 200. pound per annum, or more may be allowed for a learned Preaching Minister there, and a hundred pound a yeare apeice, for two such others to assist him, with in few yeares, one of the said Mannors will discharge, and also smfficiently repaire the said Cathedrall Church; and then the rest of the said Mannors and Lands may be imployed to other godly, pi­ous, or charitable uses, as the Wisedome of the King and Parliament shall thinke fit, and suta­ble to this, but in a more ample proportion of maintenance, will be the allowances of all o­ther Deaneryes in England.

Againe, this I conceive will answer another Objection raised by a worthy Knight at the Bar touching the poverty of the Clergy of Eng­land, if this Bill should take effect, surely my opi­nion is quite contrary; and to that purpose, I call to minde the saying of a learned Divine, Chap­laine to a Noble man, upon some conference [Page 9] with him of our wished desire to remove scan­lous Ministers, and to reduce the Impropria­tions of Bishops, and Deanes and Chapters to a Preaching Ministry, if these things, said hee, take effect, the Universities, will not be able to supply the Churches: And surely Sir, if these things take effect, I am confident we shall be so farre from having a poore beggerly Clergy, as that no Kingdome in the Christian world will have a more rich, and flourishing Clergy, both for Nurseries, and incouragements of Lear­ning: and for their maintenance in more plen­tifull manner than it is at this present. Please you therefore to put the Question, I am ready to give my ade thereunto.