I Understand, Sir, you are a French Prote­stant; I am heartily glad to see you.

You are truly in­form'd, Sir, I am a French Prote­stant.

Pray Sir, in what Condition are the poor Protestants in France?

When I left France, their Condition was very deplorable; and for any thing I hear, it continues so still.

I am griev'd at my heart for them; for I am so much one with them as to their Religion, for which they are fo cruelly Persecuted, that I cannot but extreamly Pity them.

Then I suppose, Sir, you are a Protestant.

Yes, Sir, and of the same Judgment as you are in matters of Religion.

I am glad to understand so much; Like, we say, loves like.

Pray Sir, how long have you been in England?

Almost these five Years.

I do not doubt then, but that you are a good Proficient, by this time, in our English Tongue.

Truly, Sir, I have nothing to boast of in this regard; for whe­ther it be the hardness of the Eng­lish [Page 3]Tongue, or the thickness of my Scull, I know not; but so it is, that I can onely make a shift to speak some broken English.

Don't say so, Sir; me­thinks you speak very intelligibly, and proper enough for a Foreigner. I can understand you very well; and if you please to enter with me, for this is my House, I shall be glad to have some further discourse with you.

Sir, I accept of your kind­ness; and if you please to shew me the way, I shall follow you.

Sir, you are very heartily welcome; I am glad to see you here; be pleas'd to take a Seat. Pray Sir, how do you like our Countrey?

Extraordinary well, Sir; and were it not for the unhappy Di­visions that are amongst you, espe­cially in matters of Religion, I should have reason to believe this, with the adjoining Islands, to be the Insulae [Page 4]Fortunatoe, or happy Islands of the Antients.

I perceive, Sir, you are sen­sible then of the Divisions that are amongst us.

Ay, Sir, I am but too well inform'd of them; and indeed very sadly concern'd, to see that Prote­stants cannot agree amongst them­selves, which certainly casts a great blemish upon the Reformation.

So it doth indeed, Sir; and you may thank the Church of Eng­land for it.

Why the Church of Eng­land, Sir?

Because 'tis She has refused all terms of Accommodation, that we Protestant Dissenters, as they call us, have offer'd to her.

I never heard that she had refused any. But pray, Sir, be pleas'd to let me know, what those terms are that you have offer'd her, and she hath refused?

We have propounded to her the laying aside of the Common-prayer, and parting with her Ce­remonies; and for other things, we might probably comply with them.

But, Sir, are you sure that what you demand is reasonable, and may justly be granted?

Without doubt she may, and she ought, and she can do no less for us, than to wave her Popish Common-prayer-book, and cast off her superstitious Ceremonies.

Pray, Sir, let me beg of you, to acquaint me, what you have to object against the Common-prayer; and afterwards, if the time gives leave, I shall be glad to hear what you have to alledge against our Church-Ceremonies.

That I will, Sir; and shall do it the more freely, because I should be glad to undeceive you, for I perceive by your discourse you are one of that Party.

To deal sincerely with you, Sir, I am a Member of the Church of England, but withall a true friend to Dissenters; and I hope you will be so too, if in Answering your Ob­jections, I can convince you, that the Common-prayer of the Church is very good and edifying, and her Ceremonies lawfull and decent.

I shall consider what you have to say.

But, Sir, it lies at your door to begin, by propounding your Objections against the Common-prayer.

I have many things to ob­ject against that Idol: And, in the first place, I think it ought to be taken away, because it is unlawfull to have a set Form of Prayer impos'd upon the Church.

Either you or I, Sir, are strangely mistaken in this point; for I must own, that my Judgment al­ways hath been, that it is not one­ly [Page 7]lawfull to have a set Form of Prayer in the Church: but what is more, that no Church can well be without one.

Pray how so, Sir? For, if I be not greatly mistaken, you speak now against the General sense of the French Protestants; for I never heard that they had any set Forms of Prayer.

I perceive, Sir, you have been ill inform'd concerning these matters; for, the truth is, we French Protestants have a Common-prayer-book, which was compos'd by Cal­vin himself, and therein we agree with the concurring practise of the Universal Church: for I never read or heard of any Church in the World, but had a set Form of Pray­er; so that for you to oppose it, is no less than to deny the Authority, Testimony and Practise of all the Saints of the Old and New Testa­ments, both Prophets and Apostles, [Page 8]and the express Command of our Saviour himself; and, in a word, Sir, you condemn the general sense and practise of Christianity and the Ho­ly Catholick Church.

I hear what you say, Sir, and expect you should prove it.

Nay more than this, you contradict the Example of our great Lord and Master, the Founder of our Religion, and the Author and Finisher of our Faith.

This is a high Charge in­deed; but pray be pleas'd to make it out.

That I will, Sir. First I say, that you contradict the Authority and Practice of the Prophets in the Old Testament, forasmuch as it is e­vident that they made use of set Forms of Prayer, and had a particu­lar Command so to doe: to be con­vinc'd of this, be pleas'd to reade the 26th Chapter of Deuteronomy, from Verse 13. to 16. and the 14th. Chap­ter [Page 9]of Hosea, beginning at the second Verse, Take with you words, and turn unto the Lord, and say unto him, &c. and the 2d of Joel, Verse 17. Let the Priests, the Ministers of the Lord, weep between the Porch and the Altar; and let them say, Spare thy people, O Lord, &c.

Secondly, You contradict the Command of our Lord and Saviour, and the Practice of the holy Apo­stles, which I prove from the 11th Chapter of St. Luke, the 1st and 2d Verses, where we reade that one of our Saviour's Disciples asked him in the Name of all his Companions, to teach them to pray, as John had taught his Disciples; whereupon our Saviour, addressing himself to all his Disciples, said, When ye pray, say, Our Father, &c. From whence I infer these two things: First, That the A­postles had a set Form of Prayer pre­scrib'd them by Christ himself; for it is impossible to order any Form [Page 10]in more plain and express terms, than our Saviour makes use of in recom­mending this Prayer to his Disciples. Secondly, I conclude from hence, that the Disciples made use of this Form; which will not be question'd, if we consider the great desire they shewed to obtain this Form of Pray­er from our Saviour, and the readi­ness wherewith they always obeyed the Commands he laid upon them. So that this cannot but be a suffici­ent proof to any thinking Man, that when they prayed, they made use of this Form or Prescription their blessed Lord and Master had at their request given them, with this express Command; When you pray, say, Our Father, &c.

3. You oppose the General Prac­tice of Christendom, and of the Holy Catholick Church; because neither your self, nor any Man else, can give an instance of any Church in the World, from the Apostles times to [Page 11]these our days, but what had a set Form of Prayers: for though all have not used the same, yet there is no Church but has used some Form or other.

4. You condemn the Example and Practice of our dear Lord and Savi­our Jesus Christ himself; for it is e­vident that he himself made use of a Form of Prayer, Matt. 26. v. 44.

I will not undertake now to return you a particular Answer to what you have here alledged; but shall onely say, that Praying by a Form, has by experience been found a hindrance and obstacle to true fer­vent Prayer in the Spirit; and to deal plainly with you, this seems to be one great reason why the Mini­sters of the Church of England are so dull and ignorant in this point, and so little acquainted with spiri­tual Prayer.

I am not a little surpriz'd at this your Answer; for having but [Page 12]just now proved to you, that the Pro­phets and Apostles, the Holy Catho­lick Church, and Christ himself made use of Forms of Prayer; you, after all this, come and tell me, that Pray­ing by Forms, is a hindrance to Pray­ing by the Spirit; which is as much as to say, that neither the prophets, Apostles, the Catholick Church, nor Christ himself prayed by the Spirit, because they made use of a set Form, which is a near step to Blasphemy.

I did not design to say so much neither; though I must con­fess that, Praying by a set Form, seems to me (for I find it so by ex­perience) to be a great Obstacle to true spiritual Prayer.

Though it may seem so to you; yet your Charity should lead you rather to question your own Judgment, than to pass so rash a Cen­sure upon the Saints of the Old and New Testament, yea, upon Christ himself; besides, you ought to be [Page 13]very wary of exposing your self to the derision of all men, by supposing your self wiser than all the Prophets and Apostles, than the whole Chri­stain Church and Christ himself, since it is most certain that they made use of Forms; and not onely so, but our Saviour himself prescri­bed a Form of Prayer to his Disci­ples, commanding them, when they prayed, to use the same; which he would never have done, had it in­deed been so great a hindrance to servent Prayer by the Spirit, as you pretend.

If it be not a hindrance to others, I am sure 'tis so to me.

I hope I shall understand you better, if you please to explain to me what you mean by praying by the Spirit.

I suppose no true Christian can be ignorant of what Praying by the Spirit is, and therefore I can't see any necessity there is of explai­ning [Page 14]a thing so obvious to the un­derstanding of all.

Since you seem unwilling to give me your meaning, I am ve­ry free to give you mine; to pray by the Spirit is, as I take it, to pray by the help and assistance of the Ho­ly Ghost, so as to have our hearts and minds deeply affected with the sense of our wants, and all our Fa­culties and Affections inflamed with the Love of God, and stedfast Faith in his Promises.

I perceive we do not dis­agree at all in the meaning of the words.

I am glad we are so far a­greed: for it is evident that, accor­ding to this meaning of the words, a set Form of Prayer is so far from being a hindrance, that indeed it is a great help to fervent praying by the Spirit; and on the contrary, Extem­porary Prayer must needs be a great impediment to it. To convince you [Page 15]of this, I desire you would consider, that when we pray by a Form, we have more time to study the import of our Requests, and to weigh and examine every Petition with greater attention; we have more leisure to understand and discern our wants, and to present them before God; we can the better prepare and dis­pose our selves for so holy a Duty; and in a word, we can be more in­tent and recollected to improve the motions of the Spirit, having no­thing else to doe, but to fix our mind wholly on God, whilst we are praising of him, and have our hearts suitably affected with the things we pray for. Whereas in Extemporary Prayer, the mind of the Minister, or whoever else it is that prayeth, is taken up in hunting for expressions to utter his thoughts; and for fear of being put to a stand, he is forced to follow, not the motions of the Spirit, or the dictate of his under­standing, [Page 16]but the fluency of an ac­quired habit of Praying; and by this means doth often begin, where he should end, and end where he should begin. And those very men that speak so much against the necessary and edifying Repetitions that we use in our Common-prayer, do very fre­quently in their Extemporary-prayer repeat the same things over and o­ver again, though it may be in dif­ferent expressions. And as for the People that hear a Minister pray an Extemporary-prayer, as they do not know before-hand what he will say, they must first attend to what he saith; in the next place they must consider whether what he prayeth be according to the Word of God, and fit for them to join with: but whilst the Hearer is thus employ'd, he that prays is got to another thing, and leaves his Hearers behind to overtake him as they best can; which accor­ding to my apprehension makes the [Page 17]way of praying extempore so diffi­cult and uneasie, that it is morally impossible for both Minister and Peo­ple, to pray so devoutly, or at least so understandingly as they ought to doe. If you please well to weigh and consider what I have here offe­red, I question not but you will be convinced, that a set Form of Pray­er is so far from being a hindrance, that it is a great furtherance to zea­lous praying by the Spirit; whereas the Prayer you are so much taken with, is indeed a great obstacle to it.

However Sir, I suppose you will grant me, that it is this tying themselves up to a Form, that hath made the Ministers of the Church of England so dull and devoid of the Gift of Prayer, that they cannot pray without Book; and may rather be compar'd to those Dumb dogs whom the Prophet reproves, than be look'd upon as Ministers of the Gospel.

Though I am a Stranger here, yet I have very good reason to believe, that I am better acquainted with the Ministers of the Church of England than you are, and am bet­ter inform'd of their parts and abili­ties, than you can be; for I have made it my business to be acquain­ted with them, not maliciously to slander and abuse them, but to the end I might the better understand and value them, and profit by them. And if you will give me leave to speak my Judgment, which is not grounded upon hear-say, but upon good knowledge of, and converse with them, I must render them this true and unbiass'd testimony, That of all the Clergy I ever was acquainted with, they are the most Learned and Godly.

You are a French man Sir and therefore I suppose that much of this may pass for Compliment.

I am indeed a French-man by birth, but yet I value my self up­on this account, that in heart and affection I am a hearty true English-man. And fince you are pleas'd to look upon my judgment of the En­glish Clergy no better than a Com­pliment, I challenge you to tell me, what Nation in the World can boast of having such great and worthy Di­vines as we have?

Pray how comes it to pass then, that they cannot pray?

Who told you they could not? Sure I am that they both can and do pray; and that so excellent­ly, that as they surpass those of o­ther Nations for Learning, so like­wise in Devotion, and the Gift of Prayer; and if you had taken time to peruse their Books of Devotion, you would never have told me, as you do, That the prescribing of a Form of Prayer has been the occasion why the Ministers of the Church of [Page 20]England are become so dull and igno­rant, even to that excess, that they cannot pray.

However, I think, they are much to blame; for that in their Pulpits, if they pray at all, they dis­patch them in so few words, that any one that hears them will be apt to conclude, they cannot pray; but should you once come to our Mee­tings, ay, there you would hear Pray­ing indeed.

I will not deny, but that commonly our Clergy, in the Pul­pit, use onely a short Prayer before Sermon; but don't at all deserve to be blam'd, but rather to be com­mended, for so doing; if we consi­der, first, that our Clergy chuse to make use of a short Prayer onely be­fore Sermon, because they have found, by wofull Experience, that long extemporary Prayers have be­got, in most People, a dislike of the Common-prayer, and consequently [Page 21]have been the occasion of those un­christian Animosities, Schisms and Divisions, that are so rife amongst us. And, I think, you have no just reason to blame this pre-caution of theirs, till you have made out, first, that the People doe well to under­value and despise the Common-prayer, and that the Aversion they have for it is a sufficient ground for Schism and Division. A second reason why the Ministers of the Church of En­gland use such short Prayers is, that by this means they may condescend to the weakness of the People, lest an over-long Prayer should weary those who have already attended upon, and join'd their hearts and voices with, the publick Prayers of­fer'd up to God by the Church. And in the third and last place, we shall find that there is nothing good or usefull for us, which the Minister hath not already prayed for, nor a­ny thing evil or hurtfull, which he [Page 22]has not deprecated in the publick Prayers appointed by the Church, which methinks might at least lessen the fault of our Clergy in your sight, and somewhat allay the bitterness of your Censure against them. And as for your Meetings, where you tell me there is Praying indeed, I must freely tell you, that though I never was at any Meeting in my life, yet I have often had an opportunity of hearing your Ministers pray; but forasmuch as my temper doth not incline me, and my Religion much less, to pass any offensive Reflexion upon any sort of People, therefore I humbly crave leave to be excus'd from giving you my opinion of them.

Though I cannot but ap­prove of your Modesty in this re­gard, yet I should be glad to have you speak out; and therefore I de­sire you to tell me freely from your heart, what you think of them; and [Page 23]whether they do not pray very well?

Because you urge me, I shall, in compliance with your desires, tell you, and that with all the truth and sincerity imaginable, that I am so far from liking their unpremeditated ex­temporary Prayers, that I altogether disapprove them; and above all, am much offended at their way of pray­ing.

Sure you don't speak from your heart now, as I desired you would, for if you did, you could not say so; since it is certain that they pray incomparably better than any of your Church-men: one of their unpremeditated Prayers being far be­yond all the Prayers that are in your Common-prayer-book.

Good Sir, I must entreat you for once to lay aside all your Prejudices, and to make use of your Reason so far as to consider, whether it be not morally impossible, that men, who never were brought up [Page 24]in an University, and scarcely ever had the full instruction of a Gram­mar-school, which may be said of the most of your Ministers, should without any premeditation pray in­comparably better than our Church­men, who have had the best means and opportunities in the World to improve their parts and abilities? And whether an extemporary Pray­er whined out (I beg your pardon if that word offend you) by an il­literate man, should infinitely surpass all the Prayrs of the Common-pray­er-book, which have been compiled by some of the wisest and most Ju­dicious Divines that ever England could boast of.

How strangely you talk now, as if it were impossible for any man to pray well that hath not been bred at the Universities?

You mistake me Sir, this was none of my assertion, I onely said, it was morally impossible, that [Page 25]illetrate men should pray incompa­rably better than those that have been brought up at the Universities, whose whole business and employ­ment it is to understand the Scrip­ture, and to be conversant in those studies that most conduce to true Godliness, which surely are the best means to teach them to pray also.

But the Apostles you know were simple illiterate men, and yet they could pray infinitely bertter than all the Rabbies, and all the great Doctors of the Synagogue.

I grant you that, but with­all desire you would consider, that though the Apostles were illiterate men, yet were they extraordinary men, call'd and sent by God in an extraordinary manner, to bring a­bout an extraordinary work, yea, a Work greater than that of the Cre­ation it self; they were by their Mi­nistry to change and renew the face of the whole World, to pluck the [Page 26]false Gods from their Temples, to beat down their Altars, to silence their Oracles, to abolish their Wor­ship, to root out their Customs, to o­vercome their Prejudices, and to op­pose and defeat a Religion, of as long standing as the World it self; a Religion that was in full possession of the Spirits of all men, and which by consequence could engage for her defence whatsoever was authorita­tive, great or powerfull amongst all Nations. They were to be the Plan­ters of a new Religion in the World, to brave and challenge all the pow­er of Princes, to stand the shock of the Sophisms of Philosophers, and the Politicks of States-men; to stem the violent torrent of the Mobile, and to hold out against the Persecutions of all the wicked. Now that they might be qualified and capacitated for this strange and wonderfull un­dertaking, God was pleased to in­dow them with many miraculous [Page 27]Gifts and Powers, as of Prophecy­ing, speaking all sorts of Languages, working of Miracles, &c. in order to which the Holy Ghost, who is the true and alone Spirit of Prayer, came down upon them, in a visible and miraculous manner. Which things being so, for you to fetch an Argument from the Example of the Apostles, either in respect of their Person, Mission or extraordinary and miraculous Gifts, and apply the same to your Ministers, is every­whit as improper, as if you should go about to prove, that you or I can stop the Sun in his Course, be­cause Joshua did so.

I never intended by produ­cing the Example of the Apostles, to prove our Ministers equal to them, as to their extraordinary gifts and graces; neither do I suppose, will you dare to compare the Coiners of your Liturgy or Common-prayer, with those holy Men, the Apostles [Page 28]of our Lord and Saviour?

I never did; I onely said, that the Compilers of our Liturgy, were some of the most Pious and Learned men that ever England did afford.

They were no better than bigoted Papists.

How can that be, when it is known that they suffered Perscu­tion, nay, Martyrdom it self, in the defence of the Protestant Religion, and sealed and ratified the Common-prayer, they had composed, with their Bloud?

But, pray Sir, who gave them the power to compose the Common-prayer-book?

They had their Power and Authority from God and the King.

I shall be glad to hear you prove it.

That I will Sir, for it is no such difficult matter as you may suppose. I say therefore, first, that [Page 29]they had their power from God; for they being Bishops and Gover­nours of the Church, had an un­questionable Power and Commission, by virtue of their Charge and Of­fice, to redress and reform whatso­ever was amiss in the Divine Ser­vice; and forasmuch as in some fore­going Ages the Prayers of the Church had been corrupted and a­dulterated, by inserting doubtfull Stories and Legends, with a super­fluous multiplicity of Responsals, Prayers to the Blessed Virgin and other Saints Frayers for the Dead, vain Repetitions, Commemorations and Synodals, &c. they very wisely and prudently cast away all that was Popish and Superstitious, retaining onely what was sound, ancient and edifying, and added f [...]e Prayers that were truly Apostolic [...] and Pri­mitive. And besides they had a spe­cial Order and Command from King Edward VI. authorizing them so to­doe.

I find all your Discourse comes to this, that the Compilers of your Common-prayer-book, one­ly chop'd and chang'd the Romish Liturgy, and out of it, with some Additions of their own, patch'd up the Liturgy which is now used by the Church of England, and which you do so much admire. Now you know the Popish Liturgy is no o­ther than their Mass-book, which I think might, to much better pur­pose, have been quite laid aside, than reform'd and patch'd up a­gain.

I am not of your opinion, and the Reasons that hinder me are these: First, Those Holy Men we are speaking of, had no Power or Au­thority committed to them to plant or institute a new Religion, but one­ly to reform the Abuses that were crept into the Church, and the Cor­ruptions of the pulick Worship of God, which is the chiefest part of [Page 31]the Christian Religion: now in this case it is evident, that it was none of their duty or office to take away the whole publick Service or Litur­gy, which indeed at that time was very corrupt, though not to that degree, but that some good was still found amongst it, but onely to change what was amiss, to supply the defects of it, and cast away whatsoever was corrupt or superflu­ous. Secondly, It was great wise­dom in them to observe the mean between two extreams, by shunning on the one hand a Spirit of bitter­ness and hatred against the Party they reformed from; and on the other hand avoiding a sinfull com­pliance with the corruptions of those, who were so unwilling to part with their Idolatry and Superstition. And farther to illustrate my Argument, I must tell you, that the Reformers of our Church acted according to this commendable Maxim of Chri­stian [Page 32]Charity and Moderation, viz. That in love and condescention to the Church of Rome, we ought not to re­ject any thing used by them, but what is found contrary to the Word of God: whereas the Reformers of your Par­ty proceed according to this Rule, That in hatred and detestation of Po­pery, we ought not to admit the least thing the Papists make use of in their Divine Service; and onely for this reason, because they use it. Now I would fain know of you, which of these two you take to be the most Christian and Charitable method? and whether the Principle our Re­formers went by, be not preferable to that of your Party? The Reason is evident beyond dispute; because our Reformers, by retaining what was good and of primitive Purity in the publick Service of the Roma­nists, and rejecting onely what was manifestly corrupt and superstitious, they left a door open for them, and, [Page 33]as it were, friendly invited them, to leave their Adulterous Church, and to enter into our Communion.

But pray tell me what great or good effect this Condescen­sion did ever yet produce; for I ne­ver understood that this their mo­derate and designing way of Refor­ming the Church, has been a means to persuade the Papists to leave their Idolatry and Superstitions, and to become Converts to their Church.

If I should grant you that the number of Popish Converts to our Church, is not very considera­ble; will it follow from thence, that the means used for so good and cha­ritable and End, were undue or un­lawfull? For though God hitherto hath not been pleased to bless these good means, with the greatest suc­cess that might be wish'd for, yet we know not how soon he may; especially, considering that we had never more reason to expect, the to­tal [Page 34]downfall of Popery; which, ac­cording to outward appearance, can no way so probably be brought a­bout, as by the Papists embracing the Protestant Religion. Let us therefore take heed of deriding (as you seem to do) those lawfull, mo­derate, and Christian-like methods, the Church of England hath made use to facilitate the Papists Conver­sion.

I find then, you take your Common-prayer to be a lawfull, mo­derate, and Christian-like method or means to facilitate the Conversion of the Papists.

I do so; and I question not but, in due time, it will prove very effectuall that way to the stopping of the mouths of all gain-sayers.

Ay, you may look for it long enough, I suppose; and if by great chance it should ever prove to be an effectual means, I dare say, for all that, it will never be a law­full [Page 35]one; for, to speak freely, and without mincing the matter, I am of opinion, that, though it may be lawfull to use some Form of Prayer, yet it is altogether unlawfull to use that Form, which is now in vogue a­mongst you.

Then I find you are not al­together irreconcilable to the Law­fulness of Praying by Forms; but you are not satisfied with the Forms we use. I shall be glad to hear the Grounds of your dissatisfaction; as hoping by this means to have an opportunity offer'd me, to enlarge my self more in the Praise of our Common-prayer, than hitherto I have had occasion to do.

I know the humour of French-men is to be complaisant and complimental; and so very probably you design, in comliment to the Church of England, to fall down to the Common-prayer, the great Idol of the English Clergy; as you have [Page 36]already express'd your great Re­spects for their dull and prophane Priests.

I beg of you, sir, let us dis­course without Prejudice or Passion; and be so kind as to tell me calmly and friendly, what Objections you have against our Common-prayer-book in particular.

Before I give you the Par­ticular Objections I have against the Common-prayer-book, I shall pre­mise this General Observation, That your Common-prayer is so bad, that there is nothing good in it; no, nor any thing that is so much as tole­rable.

How strangely you and I differ in Opinion? As for my part, I really think there is nothing in it, but what is very good.

If you can prove that, as I desire you would, Eris mihi magnus Apollo; for indeed you will do more than all your Clergy-men that ever [Page 37]I discours'd with, and more than all the Books that treat of this Subject, have been able to do.

If the case be so indeed, I should be loath to undertake the task: For if none of our Clergy, that you have discours'd with, nor any of those excellent Books, writ­ten in the Defence of our Liturgy, have been able to convince you of the goodness and usefulness thereof, it would be folly for me to attempt it; for I am very sensible, that my Parts and Abilities, are far below any one of our Clergy, that you have had to deal with; and to speak the truth, 'tis from them and their Writings I have acquired the best part of that little learning, and in­sight into these things, that I have.

I hope you are as modest a Man as your discourse would im­port; besides, being a French Prote­stant, you, as such, can have neither publick nor private Reason, to bear [Page 38]any ill-will to our Party; where­fore I look upon you as an unbiass'd Person, without Prejudice or Partia­lity, and consequently fit to be dis­cours'd with, about the matter in question, between us: And indeed all this makes me the more desirous to hear the Arguments you can pro­duce for proving your Assertion, That there is nothing in the Com­mon-prayer-book, but what is very good.

I thought all this while that you intended to propound your Ob­jections against the Common-pray­er; and that my onely business would have been to Answer them.

I suppose we may do both these things at once; for if you please to tell me what you find so extraordinary good in the Com­mon-prayer, I shall also, on my part, declare what I dislike in it.

Be it so. And to the end we may proceed with some order, let us cursorily reade over the Com­mon-prayer-book, which I have here with me.

This indeed will be a good way to enable us to judge the bet­ter concerning it; and therefore I am very free to run it over with you; onely must desire you, not to take it ill, if now and then I inter­rupt you with my Objections against any part of it.

What you desire, is con­tain'd in our agreement for accor­ding to it; I am to tell you, what I approve of in our Liturgy; and you are to tell me, what you dislike in it, by propounding your Objections against it.

Very well; and in so do­ing we shall finely Anatomize these Relicks of Popery. But it is your turn to begin.

The first thing I meet with in our Common-prayer-book, are some Sentences of the Holy Scrip­tures, of which the Minister is to reade one or more, before he pro­ceeds to the Prayers or Devotions, which seems to me to be very pro­per and usefull; for certainly we can never better begin God's Ser­vice, than with his own Words.

Next follows an Exhortation, wherein is represented to the Peo­ple, the End of their present assem­bling or meeting together; which is, as the Exhortation expresseth it, To confess their Sins, to render Thanks to God, to set forth his Praise, and to ask those things that be necessary either for Soul or Body: and towards the end thereof, we are informed and directed how to perform these holy and bounden Duties, viz. sin­cerely and reverently, with a pure heart, and humble voice: which cau­tion is very necessary, if we consi­der [Page 41]how prone Men are, without any due preparation of themselves, to rush into the presence of the great God, who is a consuming fire, and before whom they ought to appear with the most reverential awe and trembling; as likewise how apt we are to utter any thing before him, without considering, that he is in Heaven, and we on Earth; and how negligent we generally are, in disposing and qualifying our selves, for the acceptable performance of the Sacred Duties of our Religious Worship.

So far all is pretty tolera­ble; but by and by, we shall meet with a great deal of stuff.

Not to insist now upon your plain contradicting of your self; for whereas but just now, you positively asserted, that there was nothing, so much as tolerable in our Liturgy, you now plainly con­fess [Page 42]the contrary; I shall onely de­sire you, when we come to those places, where your great deal of stuff lies, that you would stop me, for I shall be glad to hear the Ob­jections you have against any part of it; and in the mean time I pro­ceed to speak of the Confession, which is the next thing that occurs in our Liturgy. The Minister and People having been thus stirr'd up by the foregoing Exhortation to compose their Thoughts, and prepare their Hearts for a due offering up of their Morning or Evening Sacrifice; the next thing they do, is, to fall down on their knees, confessing in a solemn and humble manner their Sins unto Almighty God, earnestly imploring his Grace and Mercy for the Pardon of them. And this, according to my apprehension, is very proper and necessary in our approaches to God; for since it is our Sins that separate [Page 43]between God and us, and hide his face from us; we can do no better than, in the first place, to beg of our most mercifull Father the Re­mission of them, that he may utter­ly efface them, and put them out of the way of interrupting the free course of his gracious and benign Communications and Influences. If I regard, saith the Psalmist, iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear my prayer, Psal. 66. v. 16. More­over, it is very reasonable, before we beg any favour from God, to entreat for a removal of those Evils we groan under, viz. the guilt and punishment of our Sins.

I suppose you did not ob­serve this method in the Com­mon-prayer the Protestants use in France.

Yes, but we did. Our Mi­nisters always begin Divine Service with a Sentence of the Holy Scrip­tures; [Page 44]and I shall not scruple to tell you, that it is expresly the same with which the Roman Office of the Mass beginneth, (and yet we have had the good luck, never to be cen­sur'd as Popishly affected upon this account;) and in the next place, they proceed to exhort and invite the People to accompany them to the Throne of the heavenly Grace, repeating after them a Confession of Sins, in substance much the same with that in the English Liturgy.

But your Ministers did not reade these Prayers out of a Book, as the scandalous and lazy Clergy here in England do.

I find you make it your business to affront our Clergy at every turn, and suppose the most abusive and scurrilous Language to be good enough for them; yet que­stion much, whether you would take it well to be paid in the same [Page 45]coin; however, I cannot but tell you my thoughts, which incline me to believe you have learned these ill manners from your own Minister.

What, I hope you will not accuse our Minister of being un­mannerly? For I dare say he is as courteous and civil, as affable and obliging, and, in a word, as much a Gentleman as any Man I know of.

He shewed himself to be so indeed, when the other day being in his Pulpit, thought fit to inter­rupt the series of his discourse to give the lye, to a person entring into the Meeting, who, it seems, had re­ported something, as he conceiv'd, to his disadvantage.

Ay, this is a fine story, forg'd at pleasure by some of your Clergy-men, to expose and make our Ministers odious.

'Tis so far from being a sto­ry, that I am ready to justifie the truth of it, by many credible Ear­witnesses. But to return to the mat­ter in hand; though first I must tell you in answer to your question, that our French Ministers always use their Books in repeating of their Common-prayer, reading it word by word, and yet have been so happy, as to escape the Censure of being either scandalous or lazy upon that account.

I onely ask you this que­stion by the bye. But let us see what follows.

After the Confession, which is the last thing we have spoke of, follows the Absolution, wherein the Minister declares and pronounces to all those that truly repent and un­feignedly believe the holy Gospel, the Absolution of their sins; and no doubt, supposing our Confession to [Page 47]have been sincere and hearty, the Minister has good reason to declare our Sins are absolved, upon these two Evangelical conditions of Faith and Repentance. But to the end no scruple may be left in this matter, be pleas'd to observe, that the Mini­ster doth not here Absolve in his own name, but publisheth a Pardon in Nomine Domini, in the Name and Authority of the Lord God. He doth not say I, but He pardon­eth, &c.

This Form of Absolution, as being onely declaratory, may pass well enough: for, as I understand it now, the Minister onely declares that Pardon may be had, and on what terms. All this may be born with, and therefore you may go on.

The Lord's-prayer follows next; and that, if I be not greatly mistaken, very properly: First, be­cause [Page 48]having hitherto prepared our selves by Confession and Absolution, we may now more freely take the boldness to call God our Father, and address our selves to him in that perfect Form of Prayer which his Beloved Son has taught us. Se­condly, the Lord's-prayer being the ground-work and foundation, on which all our Prayers and Petitions should be built, we can never do better, than to begin our Prayers with this, which was composed by the onely begotten Son of God, and indited by Wisdom it self, to be a pattern and model to all our Devo­tions.

But you cannot say that you make use of the Lord's-prayer in the first place, and before your other Petitions, since you have al­ready used several before it.

Whatsoever has been hither­to performed either by Minister or [Page 49]People, is rather a Preparation for Prayer, than Prayer it self: for if you—

You need say no more; for indeed it is no great matter whe­ther you use it first or last: the Question onely is, whether it ought to be us'd at all? I own it to be a matter of great moment, which therefore ought not to be rashly determin'd; though, for my part, I am more inclinable to take it as a directory for the matter of our Pray­er, than for a Form; and the rather, because one of the Evangelists seems to intimate as much, by ushering in the Lord's-prayer with these words of our Saviour, After this manner, therefore pray ye, Luke 6. v. 9.

I fear your Minister is not so cautious as you are in this mat­ter; for in some of his Sermons he hath, if not rashly, at least very po­sitively asserted, that the Lord's-prayer [Page 50]is not to be used as a Form of Prayer, but onely as a Directi­on; and consequently takes great care not to make use of it in his Meeting; though, as I have been informed from very credible hands, he useth it in his Family-prayers; but how to reconcile P with B in this case; P, when he is in his Mee­ting, and B when he is at home, I leave to your consideration; I onely wish there be not some worldly in­terest at the bottom that sways him. And as for what you alledge, that one of the Evangelists saith, after this manner, &c. I answer, that these words do not forbid or oppose the using of it as a Form, or the repea­ting of it in the self-same words; for he that repeats the same words, saith after this manner, though eve­ry one that saith after this manner, do not always repeat the same words. So that he who saith the very words [Page 51]themselves, hath two Evangelists to warrant and justifie him; whereas he that does not, hath but one. I shall onely add, that the Lord's-prayer, is used by the Church of Christ all the World over; and it cannot but be very comfortable and beneficial to us to bear a part in this great and Universal Consort.

But suppose I should grant you, that the Lord's-prayer may be us'd in the Morning; yet you can­not but allow me, that it ought not to be us'd at Night, because it is ri­diculous to beg our daily Bread of God, when we have eaten our Sup­per, and are ready to go to bed.

Though this Objection be too light and frothy, and not at all comporting with the Sacredness of the things we are treating of; yet shall not this hinder me from an­swering it seriously; and the rather, because I am pretty well assur'd you [Page 52]have borrow'd it from one of your Neighbouring Ministers, who not long since Preaching in this Town, produc'd it as a most convincing and unanswerable Argument, to prove, that the Lord's-prayer was not to be used as a Form: but cer­tainly this Gentleman shewed here­by, that he was no great Textuary, since any Woman, except perhaps his own Mother, (who, I am told, has been the onely Tutor he ever had) could have taught him, that by Bread in this place, as in many other Texts of Scripture, we are not onely to understand Meat and Drink, but also Repose and Sleep, Clothes and Shelter, Health and Wealth, and, in a word, whatsoever is necessary to support and supply our frail natures. To this I might add, that the word we render Dai­ly, according to its most proper and exact signification, do's not denote [Page 53]the present time, but that to come; so that when we pray, Give us this day our daily bread, 'tis as much as if we should say, Vouchsafe us all those things that are necessary and sufficient for the support of the re­maining part of our lives: and this we pray that we may receive this day, that is, as St. Luke interprets it, Day by day. Lastly, I might al­so here take notice, that by Bread, we are not onely to understand our Bodily sustenance, but also the food of our Souls.

These Observations of yours I must confess are new things to me, and more than ever I heard before. But I desire you to proceed.

After the Lord's Prayer fol­low some short and proper Ejacula­tions, for the Divine Assistance in the work we are about; and in which the People bear a part, the Mini­ster praying in the words of holy [Page 54] David, O Lord, open thou our lips; and the People answering, And our mouth shall shew forth thy praise. The Minister again, O Lord, make speed to save us; and the People, O Lord, make haste to help us. Nei­ther can you, I suppose, find fault with this Order of the Church, in assigning this place to these holy Breathings, or ejaculatory Desires, viz. before the Psalms, Lessons and Collects, and immediately after the Confession and Absolution; thereby intimating that our Sins have shut our Mouths and closed our Lips; putting us into an utter incapacity of praising his most holy Name, and expressing our bounden thankfulness, till he himself be pleased to open our Mouths and Lips to utter his glory. Again, when we cast an eye upon the Sacredness of those Duties we are about, and the great opposi­tion we may expect from the Devil [Page 55]and our evil Hearts, in the perfor­mance of them, we have all the reason in the World to cry migh­tily to God, to make haste to save us and deliver us; to the end that by his Divine assistance we may be enabled worthily to celebrate his praise, and acceptably perform the great Work we are engaged in.

These short Sentences you so much commend, forasmuch as they are all taken out of Scripture, are well enough in themselves: but I can no ways approve this chop­ping and mincing of Prayers be­tween the Minister and the People, for this makes them to be liker Charms than Christian Prayers.

Well, you are a wonderfull Christian, if I may judge of you by your Charitable and Evangelical ex­pressions: for, if from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh, I [Page 56]find you have as good an opinion of our Church as your Minister hath.

Pray, what is that you have to say against our Minister?

Nothing at all, for indeed I am asham'd for his sake to mention it.

Speak out man, I know what you would be at; is it not this, that our Minister hath said the same, viz. that your Prayers are liker Charms than Christian prayers?

I will not be positive that he used the self-same expressions: but this I dare affirm, that he used some as bad, if not worse, and which have a great affinity with these words of yours.

Pray, Sir, tell me plainly, what it was he said?

Since you will needs have it, I shall tell you, that he was so kind and charitable as to imply in one of his Sermons, that our Cathe­dral [Page 57]was the Devil's Chapel. These are his words, God has no Church, but the Devil has a Chapel; I had al­most said, a Cathedral. A sublime and worthy Sentence, full of Chri­stian Love and Charity, and well be­coming such a Minister of the Go­spel. And if we join your Aphorism to his, we may challenge the World to shew us any thing like it; for so it will make out this favourable Judgment of our Church, God has no Church, but the Devil has a Cha­pel; I had almost said, a Cathedral; and the Prayers that are used there, are liker Charms, than Christian pray­ers.

I don't matter what you say or judge of me, but your ha­ving such frequent flings at our Mi­nister gives me great reason to su­spect, you have a grudge or secret hatred against him.

I can assure you 'tis far from that; for I am so free from bearing any ill-will towards him, that I can safely desire all the harm I wish him may fall upon my self: and I sincerely protest, that the one­ly motive which makes me reslect upon some of his abusive expressions is, the love I have for that Church which he is so eagerly bent to ex­pose and vilifie; and indeed who could see his Mother so grosly abu­sed, without being mov'd at it.

Seeing you are so nice and squeamish, I shall henceforth avoid any expressions that may offend or give you an occasion to reflect upon our Minister or my self.

I could wish it were in your power to use that moderation, though in doing it, you would doe no more than what I have already several times begged of you; and had you but comply'd with my [Page 59]reiterated desires, you would have spar'd me the trouble of represen­ting to you the Sarcastical Language your Minister has very often and very unreasonably made use of a­gainst us.

In kindness to you I shall propound my Objection in other terms. I say therefore, that I can­not approve, that the People should answer the Minister, and by turns repeat some part of the publick Pray­ers; for though I know it was al­lowed amongst the Jews to sing by turns, answering one another, yet I cannot find that the same order was ever approv'd of among Chri­stians.

After thanks returned for your kindness to me, I must tell you that your Objection is so far from making for you, that it makes against you. For as I perceive, you are not well acquainted with the or­der [Page 60]the Jews observed in their pub­lick Worship, because if so, you would never have produc'd this Ar­gument to condemn the practice of our Church. True it is, that it was the custome of the Jews to sing by turns, and answer one another; but you never observed that this was a privilege granted to the Priests and Levites onely: now this Argument of yours plainly justifies the order of our Church; for if the Priests and Levites under the Old Law had the Prerogative of bearing a part in offering up the publick Prayers and Praises, none can deny, but that Christians, both Ministers and Peo­ple, have the same, if not a greater, privilege; forasmuch as every true Christian is a Priest, and that of a higher order than those under the Old Law; for if we will believe St. Peter, 1 Ep. chap. 2. vers. 9. We are a chosen Generation, a royal Priest­hood: [Page 61]and John, Revel. 1.6. declares that, Jesus Christ has made us Kings and Priests unto God.

I perceive then you take it to be a great honour or privilege for Christians to have leave to answer their Ministers, and to have a share with them in repeating the publick Prayers.

I do so; and have great rea­son for it too.

I know well that you Church-men, both Ministers and People, are very ambitious of ho­nour; but this is not the thing we must look for, especially in our Pray­ers, but rather edification and bene­fit; now what benefit can you pro­pound to your self from this answe­ring of your Minister, and pronoun­cing some part of the publick Pray­ers?

The benefit which thereby accrews to us is very considerable; [Page 62]for by this means we do not onely express our full consent to all the Minister's Prayers, without which we cannot reasonably expect any ad­vantage from them: but besides, by this method of our Church we cap­tivate the Peoples attention, restrain their vain and rambling thoughts, and oblige them to be attentive to what the Minister saith, that they may be ready to return the proper Responsals. Whereas when the Peo­ple bear no share in the Divine Ser­vice, and have no part to act in it, they are more at leisure to entertain vain and frivolous fancies, and too too often profane and lascivious thoughts come in flocks to devour their Sacrifice: and to tell you my mind plainly, I take it, that the neglect of these Responsals, is the true cause of so much inadvertency, lazy postures and drowziness, as now commonly discover themselves [Page 63]in those who frequent the House of God, and appear in his presence, whom the holy Angels adore with veiled faces; which as it is a disho­nour to God and a discouragement to the Minister, so it is of great pre­judice to their own Souls. Now to put the question to your self, you cannot deny me, but that way of Praying which most engageth our attention, is the best, and therefore ought to be preferred before any o­ther; and it is evident beyond dis­pute, that that way of Praying, where the People bear a part and answer in their course, is the most proper to make them attentive and heedfull to the Work they are about; and therefore I leave you to judge, how commendable the Practice of our Church is, in this regard.

We shall by and by have a further opportunity of speaking to this particular; wherefore you may now proceed if you please.

After the short Prayers and Responsals now mentioned, follows the Doxology; Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, &c. which is both a sound Form of praising and glorify­ing the eternal and tri-une God, Fa­ther, Son, and Holy Ghost; and a short Creed or Confession of our Faith, concerning the Trinity in Unity. And if you demand of me, why it is placed here in the close of the Pe­nitential part of our Prayers? I an­swer, Because having before confes­sed our Sins, and humbly entreated mercy and remission for them; and being now in full hope that our mercifull Father has graciously heard and granted our requests, we imme­diately change our Prayers into Praises, and our Supplications into Thanksgivings, and with transports of Joy and Gratitude we sound forth our Glory be to the Father, for it is he who pardons our Sins; and to the [Page 65]Son, because 'tis for his sake they are pardoned; and to the Holy Ghost, who alone assures us thereof. And the Minister afterwards, as if this were not enough, (because in the Gloria Patri we more particu­larly worship the Trinity in Unity, and not the Unity in Trinity,) calls upon the People again to adore the Unity, saying, Praise ye the Lord; to which the People answer, The Lord's Name be praised; which words con­tain the Christian Hallelujahs or Songs of praise and triumph, for the absolution and remission of their Sins: or else, if you will, you may take them for a Preface or En­trance to the Reading of the Psalms.

You may take them for what you please; as for my part, I don't concern my self about them, and therefore you may go on.

In the Morning Service the Psalms are ushered in with the Ve­nite, O come let us sing unto the Lord, &c. as being an Exhortato­ry Psalm, whereby we continue mutually to invite and encourage each other worthily to adore and worship the Eternal God. And that this Psalm is very well placed here, appears, first, Because by it we are informed what we are to doe; and, secondly, how we ought to behave our selves in the performance of the succeeding Offices or Du­ties. The former of these, viz. what we are to doe, we have in these words; Sing unto the Lord; Come before his presence; Serve and wor­ship him; and, lastly, Hear his Voice, or, his most Holy Word. The latter, How we are to perform these Du­ties, is thus express'd, We are to sing unto the Lord, heartily rejoicing [Page 67]in the strength of our salvation; to come before his presence with thanks­giving, with a gratefull sense and humble acknowledgment of all his Benefits; serve and worship him with all becoming Reverence and Veneration; falling down on our fa­ces, and kneeling before the Lord our Maker; not hardning our hearts when we hear his voice, but recei­ving it with Faith and Obedience. And thus we proceed to the Psalms appointed for the day, the Church having ordered them to be read o­ver once every Month.

Pray tell me the reason why they are appointed to be read oftner than any other part of Holy Scripture?

Because they are most ac­commodated for Prayer and Devo­tion, and consequently of a more [Page 68]continual use than any other part of God's Word. The ignorant will find here profitable instruction and infor­mation; the wicked earnest exhor­tations and severe warnings; the poor and afflicted will meet with su-table Prayers and Petitions to beg the good things they want, as well as to deprecate the evils they groan under; and the rich and prosperous will be furnish'd with Thanksgivings and joyfull Songs of Praise. Indeed the whole contexture of them shews them to be fitted and suited to all persons in all circumstances, whe­ther young or old, Kings or Subjects, Nobles or Commons, in prosperity or adversity, in a wealthy and com­fortable, or in a pinching and afflic­ted condition; and they are propor­tioned with that exactness to these several circumstances, as if they had been made on purpose to express and represent every one's particular state and condition.

I must own there is some­what of truth in what you have said concerning the Psalms; but one thing I find that spoils all, which is your silly way of reading them by turns, the Minister reading one Verse, and the People answering another; which certainly is a con­sus'd, if not a scandalous way of praising God.

What you are pleas'd to call confus'd and scandalous, is in my opinion very edifying and hea­venly; and my opinion is grounded upon Reason; for this way of rea­ding or singing Psalms by turns, as hath been partly already hinted, is extremely well suited to excite, each others Affections, and to encrease our Emulation, making us, as it were, to strive to outvie each other in Zeal and Devotion, and to contend who [Page 70]shall worship and praise God with most earnestness and fervency. Now this holy Emulation cannot but be very profitable and edifying; yea, and Heavenly too, because it comes nearest to the Pattern of Heavenly and Angelical Adoration; for thus we reade that the Seraphims cry to each other by turns, Holy, holy, ho­ly, Lord God of Hosts, &c. Isai. 6.3.

Well, but I have another Objection against your way of rea­ding the Psalms; and that is, that at the end of every one of them you repeat the Gloria Patri, Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, &c. which certainly is a very vain repetition.

I am not of your opinion; for if you observe this Doxology is not applied twice to the same sub­ject; for though we repeat it con­stantly at the closing of every Psalm, [Page 71]yet, because they most commonly differ and vary in their subjects, for you will hardly find two Psalms to­gether of the same Argument; some being Psalms of Doctrine and Instruc­tion, some of Confession of Sins, some of Profession of Faith, some of Sup­plication and Prayer, some of Prai­ses and Thanksgiving. And foras­much as every one of these Argu­ments contain sufficient and power­full motives to stir up our Hearts and Affections to bless and glorifie God, therefore the closing of every Psalm with this Doxology, Glory be to the Father, &c. cannot be judged vain and improper, but rather very proper and edifying.

After the reading or singing of the Psalms, we proceed to reade the Lessons, the one out of the Old Te­stament, and the other out of the New; which order affords this great conveniency, amongst several others, [Page 72]that by this means the Old Testa­ment is read over once, and the New Testament thrice, every Year.

This is a great mistake of yours, whether wilfull or no, I shall not enquire, for the Book of Chro­nicles is never read, as well as many particular Chapters of some other Books.

I confess the Books of Chro­nicles are not read, but the reason of it is plain and evident, because for the most part they are but a repeti­tion of the Books of Kings, which are read in their course: and if any Chapters of other Books be omitted, 'tis either because they contain little else but a repetition of what is gone before, or because they treat of the Genealogies, Ceremonies and Laws of the Jews, which chiefly concern'd them, as being now antiquated and [Page 73]of little use under the Gospel.

Pray why do you reade the Apocryphal Books then, which cer­tainly are of as little use and con­cern as those Books and Chapters you omit in the course of your Les­sons?

I don't think so, for though they be not Canonical, they are such as may be read with Profit and Edi­fication, in that they contain many true and pious Histories or Relati­ons of the Lives and Actions of seve­ral great and excellent Persons, whose worthy and glorious Examples are very proper to affect our Hearts, and raise up in us an ardent Desire and holy Emulation to imitate their transcendent Virtues, to express their untainted Innocence, and copy their unshaken Constancy, Courage and Magnanimity. Moreover we find [Page 74]there most exquisite Precepts of Mo­rality, directing and informing of us in the Practice of all vertuous Actions, teaching us how to order our Lives, Manners and Conversati­on, and recommending to us the loveliness and excellence of Vertue, as well as representing the deformi­ty and misery of Vice and Wicked­ness.

But, if I be not mistaken, you do not reade the first and se­cond Lesson immediately one after another.

True, for after the first Morning Lesson we say or sing the Te Deum, We praise thee, O God, &c. or the Benedicite; O all ye works of the Lord, Bless ye the Lord, &c. both of which are the most excel­lent and heavenly Hymns that ever were fram'd by Men; each of them [Page 75]being a most complete Form of Thanksgiving, Praise and Adorati­on. After the second Morning Les­son we repeat the Song of Zachari­as, or else the 100 Psalm, both of which are not onely Divine and un­questionable, but also extremely pro­per to inflame our Hearts with Love and Gratitude to God, for all his un­utterable Goodness bestowed upon us. In the Evening Service, after the first Lesson, the Church appoints the Song of the Blessed Virgin, or the 98 Psalm; and after the second Lesson the 67 Psalm, or the Song of old Simeon; all which for the Rea­sons just now mentioned, cannot but be acceptable to God, and edi­fying to those that attend his Wor­ship.

But what probable reason can you give for inserting and inter­mixing these Songs of Praise with your Lessons?

The Church has appointed the Repetition of these Sacred and Seraphick Hymns, to be us'd as a solemn Form of Thanksgiving, for those unspeakable Mercies, and hea­venly Blessings and good things, re­vealed and promised to us in his Word, newly read to us; and it is but fitting and seemly, that after we have heard God graciously spea­king to us, we should in gratitude eccho forth our Praises and Thanks to him; and this we do in the Hymns now mentioned.

Some of these Hymns, I think, might be allow'd; but there be two thrust in amongst them, which seem to me very improper; and that is the Song of the Virgin Mary, for bearing Christ in her Womb; and that of Old Simeon, for seeing Jesus Christ in the Flesh, and [Page 77]holding him in his Arms: Now since these are extraordinary Cases, which reach none of us; therefore I conclude the use of them some­what strange and extravagant.

To begin with your first Objection: I readily own that we have not the same occasion to use this Hymn, as the Blessed Virgin had; for God the Word his taking Flesh in her Womb, was a privi­ledge peculiar to her alone: Yet pray consider, that when we in all humility, with Obedience and Faith, receive the Word of God read to us; or as St. Luke phraseth it, Chap. 11.28. When we hear the Word of God, and keep it, we do conceive Christ by Faith; for according to St. Paul's doctrine, Gal. 4.19. 'tis by hearing and keeping the Word of God that Christ is formed in us; not Carnally, but Spiritually: Wherefore we are [Page 78]as much obliged, after a due hear­ing of God's Word, to break forth into a holy Magnificat, My Soul doth magnifie the Lord, because Christ is formed in us spiritually, as the Bles­sed Virgin was, because Christ was formed in her according to the Flesh.

And as to your second Objection, I might tell you, that this Hymn of Old Simeon is frequently us'd in our French Protestant Churches, as being commonly sung every Lord's-day: but if this Authority do not satisfie you, I shall give you a rea­son why the Church of England, af­ter the reading of the second Lesson at Evening-prayer, orders the re­hearsing the Song of this Blessed Man; for though indeed in the rea­ding of the New Testament we do not behold Christ with our bodily Eyes, as Simeon did, yet may we with the spiritual Eyes of our Faith [Page 79]see that Salvation he then saw; and that more clearly, because it is now more fully manifested: and there­fore upon this account we have the same reason to say with him; Lord, now lettest thou thy servant to depart in peace, for mine Eyes have seen thy Salvation, &c.

I perceive you have a pe­culiar way of applying the Scrip­tures to your selves: But let us exa­mine what is next.

The next thing that fol­lows is, the Confession of our Faith, commonly called the Apostle's Creed.

But, I suppose, you do not believe the Apostles made it?

Though strong and con­vincing Arguments might be alledg­ed to prove them the Inditers or [Page 80]Composers of it; yet I am resolved, at present, not to differ with you a­bout it; and the rather, because I am sure you will agree with me; that as long as it comprehends no­thing but what the Apostles have taught us to believe, and believed themselves, it may very well, of just right, be called the Apostle's Creed.

But what particular reason hath your Church to place it after the Lessons?

Because having heard some Chapters out of the Word of God read to us; it is but fit that we now make a publick profession of our Belief of the main and sundamental Truths there­in contained; which cannot be bet­ter done, than by repeating the Ar­ticles of the Apostle's Creed; which is not onely a Compendium of the Gospel, but of all Holy Writ.

But why is it you repeat it so often, twice a day at least, Morn­ing and Evening?

Truly it can never be re­peated too often; and I am sure our French Protestants thought so, whose Example, if it should not convince you, I hope the following Reasons may; because it serves to express our Loyalty to God, and our Ʋnity among our selves, and with the Ca­tholick Church; it is a Touch-stone to discover, whether we continue in the number of Christ's Disciples, and in Unity and Concord with one a­nother; it is our Watch-word, our Badge, Mark and Character, where­by we may distinguish Frends from Foes, true Believers from Infidels and Hereticks; and therefore, as was said before, it cannot be too often re­peated. But before we proceed fur­ther, [Page 82]we may here take notice, that upon certain Festival-days the Atha­nasian Creed is read, instead of that of the Apostle's.

Is there any thing more in the Athanasian Creed, than in that of the Apostles's?

Onely this, that in the A­thanasian Cree, the Mysteries of the most Blessed Trinity, and of the Incarnation of the Son of God, are more at large esserted, explained and unfolded, and that in the most sound, plain and perspicuous terms, those sublime an incomprehensible My­steries are capable of. After which, we proceed to this devour, hearty and mutual Salutation of the Mini­ster and the People; the Minister saying, The Lord be with you; and the People answering, And with thy Spirit.

For my part, I cannot ap­prove of the Minister and People thus saluting one another, because it looks too much like Compliment; which though perhaps it may agree very well with your French humour, yet is not at all agreeable to mine.

If you'll quarrel at this, you must quarrel with the Word of God, and with the language of the Holy Ghost in Scripture; for most certain it is, that this Salutation is taken thence, viz. what the Minister saith out of the Book of Ruth 2.4. and used by St. Paul, 2 Thess. 3.16. and what the People answer out of the Epistle to the Galat. 6.18. Which words, whether consider'd in them­selves, or with respect to the end they are design'd for, are of exceed­ing great and good use; for now we are entring upon a new part of [Page 84]Divine Service, viz. that of Prayer; but seeing that wthout God's aid an assistance it is impossible, either for Minister or People to acquit themselves rightly of this duty, which is of so great concern to the whole Congregation, Minister as well as People; wherefore they be­gin by praying each for other, hum­bly supplicating God to assist them in their present undertaking: the Minister beginning with this short Prayer for the People, The Lord be with you; lifting up your Hearts, and raising your Devoitions, that my Prayers may not be in vain for you; and the People, in acknowledgment of the Minister's hearty good will, and as being themselves extreamly concern'd in the work he is about, answer his Prayer, with this good wish, And with thy Spirit; to the end your Prayers may be so fer­vent, that you and we may reap [Page 85]the fruit and benefit of those Peti­tions you are now going to offer up to God for the whole Congrega­tion. And having thus both Mi­nister and People, implored the Di­vine Presence and Assistance in the great Work we are entring upon; we do next in a most humble and solemn manner address our selves to each Person of the most Blessed Tri­nity to have Mercy upon us, viz. that our Sins and Transgressions may not hinder our Prayers and Petitions from being graciously re­ceived and accepted at the Trone of Grance; saying, Lord have mercy upon us. Christ have mercy upon us. Lord have mercy upon us. After which, we address our selves to God, in that excellent Form of Prayer our Saviour hath taught us.

But me-thinks, forsmuch as you have used this Prayer alrea­dy, [Page 86]that the reiterating of it, must needs be accounted a vain repetiti­on, condemned by our Saviour in Matth. 6.6.

True it is, that our Church has appointed te Lord's-prayer to be used more than once in our Li­turgy, but that the reiterating of it, cannot come under the lash of those vain repetitions, forbid by our Savi­our, will appear, if you consider, that wer repeat it onely in each di­stinct Service of the Church: be­fore we made use of it as a Confir­mation, and further assurance of the Absolution of our Sins, and now we repeat it as the ground and founda­tion of our following Petitions. Be­sides, the frequent repetition of it, ought not to be called vain, since (as hath been before observed) Christ himself prayes thrice, using the same words; and certainly the [Page 87]best of Prayers cannot be used too often.

But I dare say, if so be the Protestants in France made use of the Lord's-prayer at all; yet they did not repeat it so often as you do.

I have taken notice before, that you are very ready to enter­tain false Notions concerning our French Protestants, and the same be­falls you in this particular; for cer­tain it is, that we always had so great a veneration for the Lord's-prayer, that we believ'd all our Prayers, whether publick or private, were deficient and imperfect with­out it; and therefore we did al­ways, both in the Church, and at home, conclude all our Prayers with the Lord's-prayer, adding most com­monly the Apostle's Creed, and concluding all with the Solemn Blessing.

But when your Ministers used it in the Church, I suppose they did not repeat it often, as you do; but were content with saying of it once onely.

You are still mistaken; for our Ministers do repeat it most com­monly thrice, and sometimes more, before they come down from the Pulpit; and according to the Disci­pline or Canons of our Church, they are bound so to do.

This, I confess, seems strange to me. But let us proceed to what follows next, and that cursorily too, for I begin to be ti [...]ed with speaking so long to no purpose; for I find ready at hand to dash my Ob­jections.

That I may not tire you altogether, I shall dispatch what re­mains in as few words as possible. The next part of the Liturgy that offers it self, are some interlocutory Petitions, taken out of Holy Scrip­ture: both Ministers and People in these short and devout Ejaculations, striving by turns, who shall most move God favourably to incline and hearken to their Petitions; and af­ter these, the whole Congregation do in a humble posture, with uni­ted hearts and voices, supplicate our heavenly Father for his grace and favour, for his help and aid, for his safeguard and protection, for the acceptation of their Prayers, and his Divine Blessing, not onely for them­selves, but also for the King and Queen and Royal Family, for the Church, both Clergy and People, and lastly, for all Mankind: and [Page 90]this, in few words, is the design and contents of the following Collects. But I must not forget to observe to you, that upon Wednesdays, Fridays and Sundays, we reade the Litany.

Pray waht is the use of this Litany? or what is it good for?

I must not, it seems, for fear of trespassing upon your patience, enlarge my self too much, in repre­senting to you the Excellency of this Prayers, and therefore shall tell you, as briefly as I can, the sub­stance and import of it: there is no Vice nor Lust, which therein, we do not pray to be deliver'd from; nor any Grace or Virtue, but we desire God to bestow it upon us; and, in a word, whatsoever is fit to be pray'd for or deprecated in pub­lick, is contained in this Prayer. Af­ter which follow some Prayers of [Page 91]Thanksgivings, to be used upon par­ticular occasions, being extreamly well suited to those pious Ends they are intended for; as for Rain, Fair­weather, &c.

But I am sure there is more than this contain'd in your Com­mon-prayer, and therefore pray do not shut up your Book so soon.

There is something more behind, I confess; but because I am loath to abuse your patience, I hope you will think this general account to be sufficient. What remains un­mentioned, are the Collects, Epistles and Gospels; which you cannot but like, as to the matter, because they we the Word of God: And as for their Order, it is admirable, as being to well suited to the particular Days they are appointed for, that by means of them, the Mysteries commemora­ted [Page 92]upon those days are unfolded, the History represented, or the Example applied to the great benefit and edi­fication of those that truly fear God, and desire to improve themselves in saving knowledge, and are willing to imitate the holy Examples of those faithfull Servants of God, who are departed this life in his Faith and Fear.

Is this all then?

No: for besides all this, our Liturgy contains a Form for the Ad­ministration of the Lord's-Supper; another for the Publick Baptism of Infants; another for such of riper years; as likewise a short Catechism; the Order of Confirmation; a Form for the Solemnizing of Matrimony; the Order for the Visitation of the Sick, with the Form of Administring to them the Holy Communion; the [Page 93]Order for the Burial of the Dead, and the Thanksgiving of Women after Child-birth; and, lastly, a Commi­nation of God's Anger and Judgment against Sinners.

Ay, here's a multiplicity of Forms indeed; but I am confi­dent, if you would speak sincerely and from your heart; you will grant me, that all these Forms are very useless and unnecessary.

If I should grant you this, I must not onely speak against my Judgment and Conscience, but also condemn our French Reformed Chur­ches; since it is most certain, that they also have Forms appointed for most of the foresaid occasions: For instance; we have set Forms for Ce­lebrating of the Holy Communion, for the Baptizing of Children, for the Solemnizing of Matrimony, &c. And [Page 94]lastly, I should condemn and oppose the general sense of our French Prote­stants, who have always had, and still have a great respect and veneration, not onely for those Forms last men­tioned, but for the whole Body of the English Liturgy.

You are pleased to say so.

And you will be forc'd to say so too, if you please onely to take the trouble to reade Dr. Durel's Treatise in Defence of the English Liturgy; for there you will meet with unquestionable Records of the Opinion and Judgment of all the ablest and most learned Divines a­mongst the French Protestants, who have in all times, and upon all oc­casions, as far declared themselves for the English Common-prayer, and spoken as highly and favourably of it as any of the Divines of the Church of England ever did.

I have not Dr. Durel's Book, and therefore cannot satisfie my self by perusing of it; but if you will be pleas'd to inform me what he saith concerning the Judgment of your French Divines, with respect to our English Liturgy, I shall be glad to hear it.

Dr. Durel, amongst other Testimonies, produceth a Letter of the Reverend Monsieur de l' Angle, at that time one of the Ministers of the Reformed Church of Roan, a Per­son of great Worth and Fame; where­in, upon occasion of the happy Re­stauration of King Charles II. he saith, Taht his heart leaped for joy, when he was told that the English Liturgy and antient Discipline was like to be re­stor'd. He alledgeth another Testi­mony of Monsieur Gache's, then Mi­nister of Chearenton, one of the most [Page 96]eloquent and zealous Preachers the French Reformed Churches ever had, who in one of his Letters declares, That he had read the English Liturgy, and had been wonderfully edified by it. He produceth also a Letter of Monsieur du Bosc, the Minister of Cane, an extraordinary Person for Learning, Eloquence and true Piety; where he declares, That he as much approves of a minister performing Di­vine Service, after the way of the Church of England, as he that offici­ates according to the manner of the French Reformed Churches. Besides these, he sets down the Testimony of Monsieur Bochart the Minister of Alancon, a Man of great Repute and Learning, who declares he found the Liturgy to be very good, and well or­der'd; as also that of Monsieur Goy­on, Minister of Bordeaux, one of the most greave and learned Divines of all the Province of Aquitain, and [Page 97]greatly versed in Antiquity, in these words: There is not one Minister (saith he) in all the Province of A­quitain, that thinks his Conscience of­fended by using of the English Liturgy; and declares that those people dream and dote, who are of that Opinion; and those Gentlemen amongst you do ex­treamly wrong us, when they quote us for to foment their Schism, which cannot but be very scandalous.

But that I may not be further te­dious, I shall refer you to the fore­said Book of Dr. Durel, where you will find enough to convince you, that all our worthy Divines, such as Peter du Moulin, Monsieur Drelin­court, Monsieur Daillé, Monsieur A­myraut, &c. have express'd no less Esteem for the English Liturgy, than any Son of the Church of England ever did. To all which Testimo­nies, I will add that of Spanhemius a French Divine, and sometimes Prea­cher [Page 98]and Divinity-Reader at Geneva, in his Epistle Dedicatory to the Lord Primate of Ireland, prefixed to the Third Part of his Dubia E­vangelica; where commending the Publick Worship of God in the Church of England, he declares, that the like is scarcely to be found elsewhere.

According to what you tell me, I cannot believe your French Divines to be Calvinists; for I am confident Calvin was not of their o­pinion with regard to the English Li­turgy.

To the end you may be a­ble to judge what Calvin's opinion was about this matter, I shall refer you to a passage of his, in an Epi­stle Dedicatory to the Duke of So­merset, Lord Protector during the minority of King Edward VI. which [Page 99]will convince you, I suppose, that he was of the same judgment with the rest of our French Divines; his words are these, Quoad formam Precum & Rituum Ecclesiasticorum, valde probo, ut certa illa exstet, à qua Pastoribus discedere in functione sua non liceat, tam ut consulatur quorundam simplici­tati & imperitioe, quam ut certius ita constet omnium inter se Ecclesia­rum consensus; postremò etiam ut ob­viam eatur desultoriae quorundam levi­tati, qui novationes quasdam affectant. Which may be englished thus, As touching the form of Prayer and Cere­monies of the Church, I do extremely approve, that it be set and fixed, so as it may not be lawfull for the Mini­sters to recede from it, in their functi­on; as well to help and assist the sim­plicity and unskilfulness of some, as to give a fuller evidence of the consent and uniformity of all the several Con­gregations; and finally, that by this [Page 100]means, the changeable humour of those that affect novelties may be check'd and obviated.

I always thought Calvin had been of the same judgment that we are, though you would seem to persuade me to the contrary. But to make an end of our Discourse at this time, I shall onely ask you one question more, and then I have done, which is this, What your French Di­vines judge concerning us, who for Conscience sake refuse to make use of the Liturgy in our Assemblies, or to frequent the Congregations of those that do?

What you desire you may find in the forementioned Discourse of Dr. Durel, where he sets down this Letter of the Reverend Monsieur Goyon, Minister at Bordeaux, which is thus translated:

Though this Man saith too much, yet he saith nothing in par­ticular to the point of our refusing to reade the Common-prayer in our Assemblies, and to frequent the Chur­ches where it is read.

If you think that Monsieur Goyon doth not speak home enough [Page 103]to the matter in question, be plea­sed to reade what Ludovicus Capellus, Divinity-Professor at Saumur, saith to it, in the Body of Divinity pub­lished by him and his two Col­legues, Moses Amyraldus and Joshua Placoeus; in which Book this Lear­ned Man, having at large proved the Lawfulness, Ʋse and Necessity of a set Form of Liturgy, in opposition to the then newly started Directory, which the Presbyterians endeavour'd to establish instead of the Common-prayer. It is also worthy our noting, that he maintain'd a publick Dispute on this Subject in the Divinity-School, wherein he defended the Common-prayer of the Church of England, as good, sound and expe­dient, against the Cavils and Objec­tions of the Presbyterians, even at that very time when the Opposers of set Forms were in the greatest power in this Kingdom, and that it [Page 104]was generally believed the Liturgy of the Church of England would ne­ver have been restored.

But what saith he in parti­cular of us, for if you don't tell me, I shall scarce take the pains of reading over his Book to inform my self?

I am unwilling to give you his words, because I fear you'll find some of his Expressions too sharp and cutting.

As long as I suppose he was no English Tory, I shall take all he saith of us in good part.

Towards the end of his first Thesis, he saith, Ʋnum superest exa­minandum, &c. which in English speaks thus: ‘There remains yet one thing to be enquir'd into, viz. Whether there ought to be a cer­tain [Page 105]set Form of Liturgy, consis­ting of express words; or, Whe­ther it ought rather to be left to the will of the Pastor, to use what words or form he pleaseth; and this because of a new Generation of late Upstarts, which will ad­mit of no certain and prescribed Form of Liturgy, neither in the publick Assemblies of the Church, nor in private Devotions; but maintain that all ought to be left to the pleasure of Ministers and the Heads of Families. And in his sixth Thesis he declares, That the several Authors of the Reformati­on had every where compos'd and prescrib'd several set Forms of Li­turgy, and that the same were still made use of by the Reformed Churches in their several Nations and Districts with happy success and edification; till of late there arose in England a froward, scru­pulous [Page 106]and over nice (not to say superstitious) Generation of men, who thought good not onely to blame and find fault with, but wholly to abrogate and cast off the Liturgy hitherto used in their Church, instead whereof they have introduc'd their Directory as they call it. He adds further, That the Reasons and Causes you pretend to have for abolishing the Common-prayer were levissimoe, nulliusque pene momenti, very slight, and scarce of any moment at all.’ And in Thesis 28. he saith, ‘Cer­tainly nothing else has stirred up these men so eagerly to reject all manner of set Forms of Prayer, but partly the desire of innovating and corrupting, to the end that, under the specious pretext of Li­berty to pray and prophesie, they might introduce all manner of Sects and Errors into the Church; [Page 107]and partly their false and prejudi­cate opinion, persuading them­selves that we are now arriv'd at that time, wherein, as in the days of the Apostles, the Spirit of Pro­phecy, of Prayer and Supplicati­ons, is to be poured forth upon the present Church, according to that of Joel 2.28. and Zach. 12. v. 10. which is the common and most pestilent Error of all the Phanaticks, concerning the fen­ding of the H. Ghost by Christ, &c.’ And drawing up his whole Disser­tation into certain Conclusions, he saith, Thesis 49. ‘The use of these set Forms of Prayer cannot justly be condemned, forasmuch as the same may be always and e­very where profitable and conve­nient; and because they have been receiv'd by the universal Christian Church for these 1300 years all the World over, except onely a­mong [Page 108]these new-fangled Indepen­dents, so he calls all those who re­ject the use of set Forms. And Thesis 50. he adds further; So that the perversness, peevishness and superstition, or rather the mala­pert and obstinate wilfulness of these men is both prodigious and sensless, who, out of a mere hu­mour or desire of lawless licenti­ousness, or out of design to in­troduce confusion into the Church, do superstitiously condemn and compare to an Idol, forbidden by the fourth Commandment, a thing which in it self is most in­nocent, the use of it edifying, and the practice of it most convenient, which has long obtained in the Universal Church, was never yet condemned by any Church, and which all the Churches of God make use of with the greatest be­nefit that may be, which yet [Page 109]these men, most foolishly, would have all to forbear and abhor.’ And lastly, in 51 Thesis, he saith, ‘And amongst the rest, those are most to be detested, who either will not allow the Lord's Prayer to be said at all, or will have it said alone, and not in conjuncti­on with any other Prayer whether publick or private, and who think it a great sin for any godly man to be present either in the Church at Common-prayer, or in any Fa­mily at private Devotions, where any set Form is used; and hold this for a just cause of Separation from the Church, lest they should be Partakers of the Sins of those who use set Forms, and thereby become defiled, being not unlike to those of whom the Prophet I­saith speaks, chap. 6. v. 5. which say, Stand by thy self; come not near me; for I am holier than [Page 110]thou; these are a smoak in my no­strils, saith the Lord: that is, they kindle my wrath against them. The Lord grant they may return to a better mind. Amen.’

And so say I too. Amen, Amen.

And thus I take my leave of you in the words of this Learned and most Renowned Divine.

But pray why in such haste? We have not yet made an end of our dispute; for when I told you I had done, I meant with your Liturgy: Wherefore now it remains that we discourse concerning the Ce­remonies of your Church, which I intended for a Second Part of this our Conference.

If I be not mistaken, we have discours'd long enough for [Page 111]once; besides, I must give you time to consider what hath been said; and if you chance to approve it, and desire further to discourse me about the Ceremonies of the Church; I now assure you, that I shall at any time be ready to serve you to the utmost of my power.