THomas Collier, a man long well known unto us, who hath for some time profest himselfe a Mini­ster of the Gospel, or a Teacher of others, say­ing, that he is set for the defence thereof; ha­ving published a Book, which he calls, A Dia­logue between a Minister of the Gospel, and an In­quiring Christian (where in truth there was neither) in which he undertakes to discuss the principles of the people called Qua­kers, therein setting down several particulars, as by them held, and guilty of, which they deny. Neither hath he made any proof thereof, but only said it; which Book being answered by I. N. and Thomas Collier charged for uttering many Lies against the foresaid people, and above fifty of them returned to him for a proof, or to rest on his head untill the dreadfull day of ac­count, unlesse he timely repent: Thereupon he hath published another Book, which he calls A Looking-glass for Quakers, in which he saith, the truths asserted in that Dialogue are clearly proved, and James Naylor and the Quakers are proved to be lyers and deceivers. Now it is not the truths in that Dialogue (if any there) which he was called upon for a proof, but the lies by him therein invented, which yet remain unproved, not­withstanding what is by him alleadged.

Now these Books coming to our view, and by us examined and weighed; and finding our selves concerned therein, we be­ing reputed by him under that name, were pressed in spirit to publish this vindication on the Truths behalf, which is by us owned, and lies and lyars denyed.

But before we proceed further, this is to be observed, that we sent him a Letter dated the 19th day of the first moneth, 1657. thereby acquainting him that such books we had seen published in his name, expressing such particulars which we did declare [Page 2]in the name and fear of the Lord, were not owned by us, but denyed, and the Author to be neither Minister of the Gospel, nor Christian, but a Lyar, slanderer, and false accuser: And that if he did not disown the said books, or confess that he had wron­ged the truth, and us who own it, or otherwise reasonably satis­fie us in some short time, either by word or writing, we should as the Lord should direct and order, publish our Innocency, and some of the Authors wickednesse, that so his Sheeps cloathing might no longer hide his wolvish nature. Now there being a time and place agreed on, and appointed by him and one of us for him to vindicate himself, and prove the particulars before mentioned, where was a meeting accordingly, and where only four of those particulars debated. Thomas Collier went away, not mentioning any further or other time for debating the rest, though it was then, and still is by us denyed; that what was then by him offered for proof of his Assertions, to be any way valued for his purpose: And now his Looking-glasse being his only Refuge (that we know of) which consists much of Lyes, must be swept away, unto the particulars whereof we are now come.

• 1 That all our principles, are delusions.
• 2 That we hold not any principle of truth truly as it is in Je­sus.

Now for proof of these particulars, he saith, that if that which follows be true, then this is true; and we may safely conclude, that if that which follows be false, then so must this.

That which follows is this; that we forsake the true way, de­creed and ordered of God for the attaining of justification, which is by faith in Christ crucified; this is charged on the peo­ple called Quakers, not one or some of them, but the people called Quakers. Now for proof hereof in his Dialogue, he only says it, but offers none. In his Glasse he alledges James Nayler, in his love to the Lost, concerning justification, where he uses these words; That persons are so justified as they are sanctified, and mor­tified and no farther; And at other places he severall times ex­presses Mortification and Sanctification, before Justification: And at another place; That by which the just lives, is that by which the creature is justified. And so T. C. sayes, that it is James Nay­lers [Page 3]great work to make Sanctification, Mortification, and Ju­stification to be one, and Justification to depend on Sanctificati­on and Mortification.

The work that we have in hand is, not to vindicate persons, but truth; and if any one should forsake the true way decreed and ordered of God for the attaining of justification, Is that a suffi­cient ground to say, the people called Quakers do so? Is there any one or more that hath set out any writing by appointment, and signed in the name of the people called Quakers (as T. C. and others did a writing in the name, and by appointment of the Messengers of the Churches at Tiverton the 18th day of the 7th. moneth) wherein such a thing is declared, as to forsake Christ the way to Justification, then there might be some ground for such a charge; but further, the truth declared by James Nayler in this particular, we own; and he that with an impartial eye views his writing, will never finde any such thing by him decla­red, as T. C. falsly charges; for J. N. saith, that the wisdome of men in the fall, finding these severall words in the Scripture, hath in their imaginations run them into division, and separa­ted that which is in one, and cannot be divided in the possessi­on, for it is one that worketh all these: and that which sanctifies, that mortifies, and the same justifies; and so his drift is, not to make Justification to depend on Sanctification and Mortification, but all on the just one; and so to discover the vanity of such a people, who would conceit a possession of justification without san­ctification or mortification, like the Authors of that Writing from Tiverton, who say they are joyned to the Lord, and yet confesses abominations reigning in their souls, drawing iniquity with cords of vanity: A light spirit, slavish fear, mockers of God, living short of the true sight and sense of Gods Majesty, a wretched worldly spirit, coldnesse and deadnesse on their souls, formality in holy duties, indifferency, Laodicean spirit, without the sense of the work, and true travail of soul, as in that writing with more such fruits is exprest.

Now J. N. clearly lays the work of justification, sanctificati­on, and mortification on Gods righteousnesse, saying, it is the work of God wrought by Christ; and they who had received the Spirit, were called to all these by faith in his blood: And in [Page 4]what he writes concerning Redemption in the same Book he saith, All who knows the redemption of Christ by his precious blood, &c. And in another place, Who hath redeemed us to God by his blood; and so it's clear by his words, as he expresseth them, without T. Colliers Expositions, that he lays the work on Gods righteousness wrought by Christ; and why should T. C. conclude a meaning from some of his words, contrary to his own expressions; but the thing is very probable, that he had laid this charge from his own imagination before he had ever seen J. Naylers Love to the Lost.

Another testimony he offers for proof of this particular, is what himself heard (as he saith) at a meeting of ours at a place called Himmington, but it's like it was intended Limmington, where he and another, as he saith, taking occasion to hold forth Christ amongst them, they heard with patience untill they came to hold forth justification through his blood; Then their Teacher cryed out blasphemy, and said, that they spake stories to the people, and denyed the spirit by which they spake. There coming to the meet­ing, and speaking there of justification by the blood of Christ, is confest, and their preaching of that which they knew not might well be called stories; but that our friend Christopher Holder called Justification through the blood of Christ, Stories or Blasphemy, is ut­terly denyed, as severall do witness who were then present, and do affirm that our friend said he owned the words, but their spirit he denyed; for them to talk of that which they were igno­rant of, might well be called Stories, the Prophet saith, Jer. 5.2. Though they say, the Lord liveth, surely they swear falsly. Dare a­ny say, the Prophet denyed the Lord lived? Now for such whose abominations reign, are drawing iniquity with cords of vanity, &c. as T. C. confest of himself since that time, witnesse Tiverton wri­ting. We say, for such to take upon them to preach Justification through the blood of Christ. Their testimony is by the truth in us de­nyed, and may well be called stories, & they blasphemers: and the Lord will say to such, what have you to do to take my words into your mouths? And further we know that Christopher Holder (at that time, and believe yet doth, if living) own no other way for justification, but Christ crucified by faith in his blood, as the Scriptures declare; and so both those which T. C. produces as witnesses for him, are found bearing testimony against him, and so the two first particu­lars, [Page 5]and this which follows are found false: We also say, that if both those before produced by T. C. for evidence had declared the thing asserted, which is utterly denyed, yet could no ratio­nal unprejudiced man take them for sufficient evidence, to prove the people called Quakers hold such principles.

And further we do declare for our selves, and that which is al­so assented unto by the people called Quakers, that this we own and witnesse Jesus Christ is come a light into the world, that all men through him might believe; and is the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world: And whosoever follows him shall not abide in darknesse, but shall have the light of life. This is he who is the way to the Father, and none can come to the Father but by him; even he who was in the beginning before all things, and by whom all things were made; even he that was dead, but is now alive, and lives for ever­more, who is made unto the Saints sanctification and righteousness, as well as justification and redemption, and saves his people from their sins: And they who are made witnesses of him, know him dwel­ling in them, and for that end made manifest to destroy the works of the Devill: And all those who make a profession of his name, and say, he is their Redeemer, Saviour, or Justifier, and have abominations reigning in their souls, Iniquities written in their fore-heads, and are drawing it with cords of vanity, are Lyars and Deceivers; for none can know him a Justifier, but they who know him a Sanctifier and a Mortifier; and whosoever knows his salvation from condemnation, must know his salvation from sin: This is that Christ we bear record unto, the seed of the woman that bruises the Serpent head, whose day Abraham saw, and was the Rock that followed Israel, of whom they drank. The same the Prophets prophecyed of, who was born of the Virgin in the City of David, preached himselfe the light of the world, the way to the Father, was hated, persecuted, mocked, reviled, and delivered to be crucified, by those who profest they were in expe­ctation of his coming, yet chose a Murtherer before him. This is he who is the living bread that came down from heaven, whose flesh is meat indeed, and whose blood is drinke indeed, and whereof whosoever doth not eat and drink have no life in them: He that can receive it let him; who was a man of sorrows, acquainted with griefs, his visage more marred then any mans, of whom many were and are asto­nished, [Page 6]was crowned with thorns, crucified between Theeves, was buried, rose again, and ascended far above all heavens, and fills all things, being glorified with the Father, with the glory which he had with him before the world was, the same to day as yesterday, and for evermore, who makes intercession for the Saints, and is the Mediator of the New Testament, even the man Christ Jesus, and he that hath seen him, hath seen the father also, through whose blood we are justified, and are redeemed from our former vain conversation; and witnesse remission of sins, who hath bap­tized us with the holy Spirit, and is our righteousnesse, with whom we have fellowship, and with the Saints in light: And they that walk in the light as he is in the light, have fellowship one with ano­ther; and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth from all sin; who though we are many, are one bread; for the bread that we break is the Communion of the body of Christ, and the cup that we drink is the Communion of the blood of Christ, and they that discern not this body, eat and drink their own damnation, (he that hath an eare to hear, let him hear) and under his Banner we fight, a­gainst the Beast, false Prophet, Deceivers, and all the Nations of the world, now united together against him (Our weapons being not carnall but spirituall, mighty through God, to the casting down of strong holds, and high imaginations) whose daily Crosse we witness to be the great power of God to salvation, who lives and dwels in us, and whose peace none can ever take from us; and who shall dash his enemies in pieces, and grinde them to powder, be­fore whom Nobles doth bow, and Kings cast down their Crowns, whose scepter is a scepter of righteousnesse, and of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, unto whom be glory for e­ver and ever. And this is the truth spoken from our hearts, the Lord bearing us witnesse; and this is the true way decreed by God for attaining of justification, which we have seen and heard, and are witnesses of, and is no principle of delusion, but held by us truly, as it is in Jesus, according to the Scriptures of truth; and so Thomas Collier hath wronged the innocent, for which he must account.

Another of the particulars falsly charged on us is, that we have set up another way for the attaining of Justification, that is by Quaking, &c. This is onely affirmed in his Dialogue, but no [Page 7]proof mentioned; and in his Glasse he endeavours thus to prove it; that this is true, is evident, and apparent, in that they have af­firmed, that their Quaking is the spirit of burning, through which all must passe, to enter into Righteousnesse and Justificati­on, &c.

Let the Reader minde this proof; he saith, it is evident and ap­parent; by what evidence? If persons will take an impudent false affirmation for proof, then it is evident and apparent, but not otherwise by what is produced; he saith they have affirmed it; who is it? what particular person? we and many others deny it, and own no other way, but what we have already declared: and it's very likely, if he had heard such a thing from any parti­cular person, he would have mentioned it in his Dialogue, or his Glasse, and so he appeals to the understanding for judgment; but we say, he that judges this a proof, to say they have affirmed it, is void of understanding: And if T. C. had not been blinded with envy, arrogancy, and impudency, he would rather have confest his lye, then have persisted in his obstinacy; but at last he calls I. N. to justifie this, in his answer to the Dialogue. Now this must be granted, that the Dialogue was published before there could be an answer to it; and the charge was laid in the Dialogue, and so laid without proof or cause: And can any one in reason take J. Naylers Book for a witnesse, when in that Book he re­turns this to be one of the Lyes charged by T. C. on the people called Quakers, and no such words in his Book, as to say, that the Quakers have set up another way to attain Justification by, that is by quaking, &c. He alledges the 15 page, but there is no such thing affirmed: This he saith, that all that do declare the way they came to God, witnesse quaking or trembling; and all that knew the word of God trembled at it. Do he here say, that the Quakers have set up quaking as a way to attain Justification? T. C. might blush at such impudency, if he had not got a fore­head that could not.

Another lye by T. C: charged on us is, that we have outed Christ in the great work of justification, and no lesse then tram­ple under foot the blood of the covenant, counting it an unholy thing, or at least too unholy to look to it, or expect justification by it; this he affirms in his Dialogue. Now in his Glasse to prove it, he [Page 8]saith, if the preaching of it be Stories, and Blasphemy, this is a trampling of it under foot, &c. And if Sanctification and Mortifi­cation be the fulfilling of the Law, and the creatures justification, then the blood of Christ is laid aside.

For answer we say, that T. C. and such as he makes the preach­ing of it a story: If any in taking upon them to preach Justificati­on by the blood of Christ to other, while abominations reign in their own souls, and are drawing iniquity with cords of vanity, as is exprest in Tiverton writing before mentioned: and as for Sanctification and Mortification to be the fulfilling of the Law; and the Crea­tures justification is not proved by T. C. that the people called Quakers own any such thing; but we say, such as imagine to themselves a Justification without Sanctification, and Mortification, shall be scattered in their imaginations, being no other but filthy Dreamers, deceivers, and being deceived, and are blinde leaders of the blinde, and shall all fall into the pit together.

Now consider, what greater Agents can the Devil have for his Kingdome, then such who preach to others, or expect to them­selves Justification, without Sanctification and Mortification, ta­king, and what in them lies giving liberty to themselves and o­thers to live in lust; but the grace we own and witnesse, teacheth us to deny ungodlinesse and worldly lusts: and so Justification, San­ctification, and Mortification, is all the work of God by Christ; and none may conclude, they have one without all; Faith without works being dead. As for our owning the blood of Christ, we refer it to what we have said in our answ. to the first particular: But T.C. goes on in his wickedness, adding sin to sin, lye to lye, and saith, pa. 3. it further appears in that all that will own them, must deny all their faith and justification in Christ crucified. Verily, except thou repent, God will smite thee, thou lying tongue, he will de­stroy thee for ever; he will take thee away, and pluck thee from thy dwelling place and root thee out of the land of the living, and give thee thy portion with lyars, who hast herein out-stript all that have gone before thee that have come to our view: If thou canst produce one example, that ever any were invited to own, or refused to be owned by us on any such termes, or let shame and confusion cover thee for ever: But he is still running on in his lying & false accusing, like the horse into the battel, saying, [Page 9]hence it is they judg and condemn all but themselves, because they have found out another righteousness: So that indeed and in truth they account the blood of the Covenant too unholy for them to look at for justification; neither do they ever teach remission of sins by faith in the blood of Jesus. Very many people can in this bear testimony against thee: and surely we say, didst thou know that blood, and faith in it, thou wouldst witnesse victory over, and cleansing from those abominable lies. Now let any ratio­nal man judge what proof here is more then the reiterating of a company of lies, and therefore need no further answer.

Another of his Lies charged on us is, That we have found ano­ther way to go to God by, then Christ the Mediator, this he af­firms in his Dialogue, and for proof says it over again in his Glasse, and to it adds another lye; That we disown Christ to be a man; he adds further, and sayes, Naylor in his Love to the Lost, where all their principles are stated, such as they are; yet there is never a one of Christs Ascention and Mediatorship. Doth J. N. or any other (except thy selfe) say that all the Quakers Principles are there stated? Thou hast said before, they have set up another way to Justification then by Christ, that is by quaking. Dost thou find such a principle in that Book? It's like thou wilt not deny, but the way to Justification is a principle: And if we have set up quaking to be the way, and all our principles be there stated, then that must be one, or thou must be a Lyar: It were well if thou knew a bridle for thy tongue; but because his Ascention and Me­diatorship are not stated there (as thou sayest) doth it follow that they are denyed by the people called Quakers? and then thou draws thy conclusion sutable to thy premises, saying, by all which it appears, that they have indeed another way, such a one as themselves have invented to go to God by, and not by Christ, page 4. By what doth it appear? because thou hast said it, here is nothing else remaining to prove it; but who can believe thy testimony, that art thus given over to lying,, except such as are as blinde or impudent as thy self?

He still goes on charging, that they own not Christ in his Au­thority, will not submit to him in his word: In stead of heark­ning to the voyce of Christ in Scripture, they hearken to, and follow after either the voyce of Satan, or suggestings of their [Page 10]own deceitfull hearts within them, and call this Christ and his voyce, which they must and do obey, though contrary to all rules of God in Scripture.

And instead of proving this with an audacious impudent face, he asks the question, saying, Oh all you Quakers! is this a lye too? do you not witnesse it to the world, that you hearken not to the voyce of Christ in Scripture? nor obey him on the account of faith, but to the voyce of Satan? or at best your own deceitfull hearts, though contrary to all rules of Scripture. Will any ratio­nall man account this a proof? was ever such impudency heard of? First, to slander and accuse falsely; and when called upon for a proof, then aske whether this be a lye too? What is it, but as much as to say, who dare deny what he affirms, though never so false. Can any of thy own followers be so blinde as to owne thee here? And thou goest on, page 4. filling up thy measure of lies saying, you call it the light within, the voyce of Christ, the true Word, &c. when it is but your own lying fancies at the best, witnesse your turning aside from all the glorious truths of Christ, in Scripture: And then for proof of all this, beside thy own false affirmation, thou bringest J. Naylers words in his Salutation to the seed of God. Nor can your litterall promises sure your condition, nor save you from Satans power. Doth this any way tend to the proof of what is asserted, that wee owne not Christ in his au­thority, &c? But thou goest on, as if thy main work were to in­vent lyes, and saist, by which he would give to understand, that all the Scripture must be laid aside, onely looking to, and fol­lowing the Lights within. Didst thou ever hear of such a thing from any of those called Quakers, as to presse any to follow Lights within? Or is there any thing in those words of J. N. tending to the laying aside of Scripture; but thy Master sets thee forth to manifest thy self.

We further answer, the truth of the Scriptures do we own and witnesse; the voyce of Christ have we heard; to his authority are we subject, and have his word abiding in us, which is a light to our steps, by which we come to see the deceit of our own hearts, and are delivered from it, by which also we see where all those are who are imitating the Saints recorded in Scripture, without the life and power which they had, and so are no better then those [Page 11]vagabond Jews, who would cast out Devils, because Paul & others did, but were void of that power and authority by which they did it. For this we say in the name of the Lord, there is many have, and read the Scriptures, but few know the commands of Christ, of which sort are all those that know not Christ made manifest in them; for those whom the Lord sent spake as the spirit gave them utterance, and had the word abiding in them: Acts 2.4. And the Saints knew the anointing in them which taught them all things, and needed not mans teaching, 1 Cor. 2.12,13,14. and so they did not steal the words, e­very man from his neighbour, but as they had received the gift, so they ministred; and if they had not received a word from the Lord, they dare not speak a divination of their own brains, but in the name of the Lord did bear their testimony against all such to be deceivers; and such as run, and the Lord never sent them, for by their fruits they are known.

And by the same rule do we walk as they did, even the spirit of Truth, and not by another mans line: And so as all are kept to this rule, every one is kept in his place, and so are serviceable to one head, one Lord and Master. Of the Apostles, some were sent to preach and baptize, another was sent to preach the Gos­pell, and not to baptize. Some were sent to the Circumcision, and others to the Gentiles: Now as they all were obedient to the commands they had received, they discharged their duties, and not like a generation of men in these dayes, who are crying up the Scriptures; but being ignorant of the commands of Christ, intrude themselves into things they know not, and runs on in a vain imitation of the Saints recorded in Scripture in outward ob­servations and bodily worships, but comes not to the life, power and authority which they witnessed, and are ignorant of the true guide and Leader: And so many seeing in the Scripture what Paul or others of the Lords faithfull Ministers wrote unto particular persons or Churches according to their severall condi­tions or occasions, take a part or parcell of it, and read to their hearers, or followers; and then add a Divination of their own brains; but the voyce of Christ, or Word of the Lord they never knew, and so they go contrary to the rules of Scripture, unlesse it be in following the false Teachers and Prophets, who stole the words, &c. against whom the true Ministers recorded in the [Page 12]Scriptures, were sent by the Lord to bear witnesse, and the same is witnessed in this day of the Lord: For on him do we wait to know his will, and receive his counsell, and as he commands, we obey; and when we have received a word from him, and a command to utter it, we dare not dispute, but obey, and speak as the spirit gives utterance, and untill then we dare not but be si­lent; for such as runs and the Lord sends not, shall not profit the hearers; and so not to take a Message that another hath received, and run with it when the Lord never commanded us: And this also we say, the baptisme of Christ we have received, and the communion of his body we partake, and do discern it, even one Lord, one Faith, one Baptisme. And if he shall command us to go into the water, and to eate bread and drink wine together, we shall be obedient; but to do it our selves, or administer it to o­thers, because some of the Saints did it, we dare not, unlesse we are commanded of the Lord; for such as medled with the things of God, and not commanded by him, nor as he com­manded, though some of them might have good intentions in what they did; yet the Lord shewed his high displeasure on them by severe punishments, and sending his faithfull servants to te­stifie against them; witnesse Nadab and Abihu, the men of Beth­shemesh, Ʋzza, Saul, and the false Prophets, who stole the words from their neighbour, and run when the Lord never sent them: And therefore let all such as do things by imitation of the Saints in Scripture; or of others who obeyed the commands of God, and have not received the like authority as they had, feare and tremble, and take warning in time, lest the Lord make them ex­amples of his wrath and indignation, as he hath done others be­fore. Now let no envious, cavilling, or ignorant person slan­der us, and say, we deny the Scripture, for of the truth thereof are we witnesses. And also of the spirit of truth which gave them forth, which was and is the Saints guide and leader, and dear­ly do we owne them, and this is the truth from our hearts.

Page 4. Another of his lies charged upon us is, That we dis­own the coming of Christ from heaven: And for proof of this, he brings E. B. in his Book called, The true faith of the Gospel, where­in he saith, The very Christ of God is within us, we dare not deny him, &c. Now T. C. saith, If the very Christ of God be within them, [Page 13]he cannot come from heaven. E. B. further saying; they that are led by the spirit of Delusion shall answer the rest of thy Query; (by which saith T. C.) he gives to understand, that those that owns the being in, and coming of Christ from heaven, and looks for him, are led by a spirit of Delusion: So that they do not only condemn the generation of the just, &c. but the Saints of God in the primitive dayes. How is this man hasting to fill up his mea­sure of lies and slanders against the innocent? Doth E. B. because he saith, The very Christ of God is within us, deny his coming from heaven? Might it not rather have been from thence concluded, that he witnessed his coming? But T. C. is found adding three lies instead of clearing himselfe of one; for he saith, that E. B. gives to understand, that those that own the being in, and com­ing of Christ from heaven, and look for him, are led by a spi­rit of Delusion.

2 That we condemn the generation of the just, that are now waiting for the Son from heaven.

3 And the Saints and servants of God in the Primitive dayes. He further saith, that it is no part of Naylers Creed in his Love to the Lost, the Ascention, Intercession, and coming of Christ: (ob­serve) Naylers Creed, a scoffing, vain, light spirit, the Scripture in him, and such like is fulfilled: The leaders of the people cause them to erre, by their lies and their lightnesse; but if J. N. hath not a word of it in that Book, is it not blinde impudency there­fore to say the people called Quakers deny it?

And further we answer; This is he whom we beare testimony unto, who fills all things: he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven, and dwels in us, as he did in the Saints in the Primitive dayes, whom we now own, and witnesse to be our King, and Law-giver, and are so far from condemning them, that we give our testimony with them, and leave it to the under­standing unprejudiced Reader to judge, whether T. C. by saying that Christ was not in the Saints, as he did lately at Glastonbury, before many witnesses, be not found condemning the Saints in the Primitive dayes; who said that Christ was in them, as Paul and o­thers. And also the generation of the just, now who are witnesses of his being in them, and obedient to his commands; and so what he is charging us, upon true tryall he is found guilty himself.

[Page 14]Another of his Lies by him charged on us is, That we disown the kingdome of Christ, which is the great and blessed promise of the Gospel, the faith and hope of Saints, for proof hereof he saith, If the very Christ be in them, he is not in heaven; and that Naylor in his Salutation to the seed of God, contemptably saith; you observe dayes and years, persons and forms, loe here, and loe there; and the time and manner of his Reign you are jangling a­bouts and what a one he shall be; all which as T.C. saith, declares that he accounts the Reign of Christ so much witnessed in Scrip­ture, &c. to be but jangling and conceits.

Now mark the insufficiency, absurdity, and falsnesse of this pro [...], as if E. B. because he saith, the very Christ of God is in us, the [...]ore he disowns his kingdome, and denies his being in hea­ve [...] Might he not as well charge the same on Paul, who saith, Christ lives in me? And Christ himselfe, because he useth these words, I in them? &c. in his prayer for the Saints; John 17. And if the Saints faith & hope be according to Christs prayer, who is it that disowns & denies the coming and kingdom of Christ accor­ding to their faith and hope; either E. B. and the people called Quakers, who witness Christs being in them according to his pray­er, & promise; or T.C. who denies Christs being in the Saints, con­trary to both? He further alleadgeth, that J. N. saith, you observe dayes and years, &c. as before exprest: We say as before, may not T. C. as well charge Paul, nay Christ himselfe, for disowning his Kingdome, and denying his coming, whose words were to the same purpose?

We further answer, that this is the King, who reigns in righte­ousnesse, and rules in judgement; and for such who live in wicked­nesse, have abominations reigning, Iniquity apparently written in their fore-heads, drawing it with cords of vanity. To dis­pute and talk of the Reign of Christ, it becomes them no bet­ter then a jewell in a Swines snout, and may well be said to be jangling and conceits; for Satans subjects to talke of Christs kingdome and reign, servants of Sin, while there, to boast of freedome by Christ, such cannot be witnesses of it, and their hope will perish; But T. C. talks of the appearance of Christ, which the Scripture witnesseth, and Saints expected; but what is that to him who lives in lying, and such abhominations, as are confest [Page 15]by him in Tiverton writing? For such as hoped for his appear­ance purified themselves, as he is pure. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, and he in us. This is the ancient of days, who now sits as Judg and Law-gi­ver, and we bear testimony his judgement is just, and his Laws righteous, whereunto all shall confesse. This is that King, whose kingdome is not of this world, whose throne is for ever and ever; And a scepter of rigteousnesse is the scepter of his kingdome. Even he by whom God hath spoken unto us, who is appointed Heir of all things, by whom he made the world, by the word of whose pow­er all things are upheld.

Page 5. Another lye by him charged on us is, That we disown the Resurrection of the dead: For proof of this he alleadges Ja: Naylers Love to the Lost, in these words; That it's a mystery seal­ed with the Sons of God. Nor can any ever know, with what bo­dies they shall rise, till they come to the flesh of Christ; and he saith, note, this man owns no flesh of Christ, and that he intends by coming to the flesh of Christ, is to come to know that Christ hath no flesh, but all spirit. Now to examine this proof, that the Re­surrection is a Mystery, is a truth; for Christ saith, I am the resur­rection; and Christ is a Mystery, hid from the wise and prudent, as the Scriptures witnesse; but because J. N. saith, the Resurrecti­on is a mystery, and that none shall ever know with what bodies they shall rise untill they come to the flesh of Christ. Doth there­fore the people called Quakers disown the Resurrection of the dead, and deny the flesh of Christ? what a strange kinde of reasoning is here? Surely no understanding unprejudiced man can owne this any way tending to the proof of what is asserted; might it not rather be concluded from these words, seeing that the Resurre­ction is a mystery? and none knows with what bodies they shall rise untill they come to the flesh of Christ; that he owns, both the Resurrection and flesh of Christ? Other words T. C. mentions of James Naylers, which tends nothing at all to the disowning of the Resurrection; but he adds words of his own, and from his owne propositions or suppositions, at last dravvs this conclusion, this must be no part of the Resurrection: so excluding the body and the Resurrection, vvhen the vvords produced admits of no such [Page 16]Interpretations: He also sayes, note Naylors Divinity in a myste­ry: And we also say, note the scoffers light (as well as) lying spirit of this man T. C. But let the understanding unbyassed Rea­der take notice what J. N. writes touching the Resurrection, and then they must confesse that he is so far from disowning of it, that he clearly declares the contrary; for thus he saith, The day cometh, in which all that are in the graves shall heare the voyce of the Judge, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resur­rection of life, and they that have done evill, unto the resurrection of condemnation. Thinke on this you wicked workers, who live and dye in your sins, &c. And further, a terrible day will this be un­to you that die in your sins: And this the children of Light knows whom your envious minds is accusing, as though they denyed the Resurrection, though you see them preparing for it, by cast­ing off the deeds of darknesse, &c. which, were our hope only in this life, we were of all men most miserable, who have denyed all these things for the Lord, that in him we might be found at that day, in whom we look for a better resurrection, &c. Therefore hath God appointed a day, wherein he will judge the world in righteous­nesse, and give a just recompence: When the Lord himselfe shall de­scend from heaven with a shout, with the voyce of the Arch-Angel, the quicke and dead to judge, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, as saith the Scripture. Wherefore blessed are they that dye in the Lord, but woe to you that dye in your sinnes at that day. And now let him that is not given up to lying and blindnesse, judge whether I. N. owns the Resurrection of the Dead, or not. How is this man T. C. found adding lye to lye: First, charging the people called Quakers, that they disown the Resurrection of the Dead; and when called to prove it, produceth I. N. for evidence, who so clearly and fully declares his owning of it; but he thinks (it may be) to blinde the eyes of the simple, and cover his own wickednesse by deceitfull reciting some, and falsly mentioning others of James Naylers words, as he who compares T. C. his writings with J. Nayl­ers, may easily behold: and then from his own additions, suppo­sitions, and false interpretations, draws conclusions; but the wic­ked is snared in the work of his own hands.

Page 6. Another of his lyes charged upon us is, that we dis­own eternall life with Christ; and for proof of this he saith, this [Page 17]is clear, that you own no eternall life with Jesus Christ, of any man, but of the Light within, which they call the seed, &c. and then produceth J. Nayl. words in his Salutation to the seed of God, pag. 13. and with this seed is the Covenant, which seed you know not: observe this proof; Doth his three times affirming of it prove the thing once in the Dialogue, and twice in the Glasse? what is this, but first to make a lye, and then as if twice affirming of it again were sufficient proof? As for J. Naylers words, With this Seed, &c. Is there any thing in them tending to the disowning of eternall life, with Christ of any man? verily he is void of rea­son, or blinded with prejudice, that will admit this for a proof. May not T. C. as well say, that Paul denies eternall life with Christ? because he saith, the promise is to the seed, not seeds, &c? And what is mentioned of J. N. in answer to that particular go­ing before touching the Resurrection, may be sufficient to demon­strate, that eternall life with Christ is by him owned, and so T. Colliers own evidence is found against him.

And this we say touching both those particulars; Eternal life with Christ; and the Resurrection of the dead. The life which is e­ternal with Christ we own & witness, according to the promise of Christ, for him we witnesse living in us, who was from everlasting and shall be to everlasting; he who was the first, and shall be the last, in whose strength we stand, and in whose power we witnesse vi­ctory over all unclean spirits; and shall after we have suffered with him a while, reign with him in life and glory for ever.

And as for the Resurrection of the dead, we are so far from dis­owning of it, that we are pressing hard towards the attaining of it: Yea, the resurrection of the just and unjust do we own; for if our hope were onely in this life, we were of all men most miserable: But we are not of those that say, how are the dead raised? and with what bodies do they come? But on the good will and pleasure of the Lord do we wait, who giveth a body as it pleaseth him, and to every seed his own body: And if any are yet asking what body it is that shall arise? we answer in the words of Paul, 1 Cor. 15.36, &c. Thou foole, that which thou sowest is not quickned except it dye, &c. And so all busie, lying, wicked persons shall one day know, that that day wch wil be to us a day of glory and rejoycing, even the day of the Resurrection shall be to them a day of shame, mi­sery, [Page 18]and lamentation; He that hath an eare to hear, let him heare. And so these must rest on Thomas Collier for lyes, and the people called Quakers are acquitted.

Page 6. Another charge which he layes on us is; That not­withstanding all this, we own our selves to be perfect and free from sin, entered into a state of Justification, not by faith in Christ, but by their own righteousnesse attained by taking heed to the Light within, and passing through the spirit of burning as they say (viz.) of quaking fits, &c. This he affirms in his Dialogue, and being put to his proof (for there he offers none) In his Glasse he saith; This is a truth so apparent, that he that runs may read, in eve­ry Quakers mouth: Yet it seems this must be proved too, though it be the common Language in discourse, and in print, &c. Yea, we exepct proof, for we deny it, and charge thee to be a lyar, and thy testimony is not to be received. Now for proof he saith, But this may easily be discerned in Nayler concerning perfection Pag. 33. 40, 41. is this a proof sufficient to prove what is asserted? to mention such a place, when there is nothing there tending to the proof of any part of it? But he further alleadges Ja. Naylors an­swer to his Book, page 73. in these words; Did ever Minister of Christ preach against perfection as thou dost? who sayest, that perfection is not attainable here? Is this any thing at all to prove what is asserted?

And further at the meeting at Glastonbury before mentioned this particular being one of the four then debated, T. C. then said, That by every Quaker, he did not mean every particular of them, bu [...] the generality of them, or every one that he had discourst withall: And being urged to name some particulars, he answered, he did not remember where he had discourst with any about that particular: He was then asked, whether he had not discourst with some at Bristoll (then named to him) he confessed he had. It was then de­manded, whether they affirmed any such thing to him, that they were perfect? he answered, that he did not remember whether they did at all discourse about that particular, and so out of his own mouth is proved the lyar. How doth T.C. forget himselfe, to say, It's so apparent, that he that runs may read in every Quakers mouth; and that it's the common Language in discourse, and in print, &c. And thence would infer a kinde of impudency in the [Page 19]people called Quakers, to deny it, or demand proof for it. Sure­ly, if those particulars before asserted by him were so evident in every Quakers mouth, and the common Language in discourse and print, he might well have produced some particulars for in­stance. Is it possible that there can be any almost of his own fol­lowers so blinde as not to see his lying and impudency? besides his absurdity, to bring the Answer to his Book, to prove what he had said therein? So that if his Book had not been answered, it seems his proof had yet been wanting; although what is there al­leadged, serves not at all to his purpose: Let all who have any modesty, blush at such wickedness and folly.

And we further say, that perfection we own, witnesse, and presse after, forgetting that which is behinde: Pressing hard for­wards, even towards the marke for the price of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus, believing that he which hath begun the worke, will in his owne time finish it in us. And all those who with us in faithful­nesse and patience wait for it, we owning, obeying, and fol­lowing the light of the world, the gift of God which is perfect: And they who walke in the light as he is in the light, have fellowship with us, and know his blood cleansing from all sin: For into the new Ierusalem shall nothing that is unclean ever enter; and they who are by the Lord foreknown, are predestinated to be conformable to the image of his Son; that as he is (even so they should be in this pre­sent world) who was perfect, and left us a perfect example, and whose prayer was, that they may be made perfect in one: And when he ascended on high, he gave severall gifts, but all to this end, for the perfecting of the Saints: And for this the Ministers of Christ la­boured, to present every man perfect in Christ Jesus, and onely and alone in him do we own, witnesse, and presse after it: And of this severall of the Saints in Scripture came to be witnesses, even to be cleansed, washed and sanctified, made free from sin, and so servants unto righteousnesse, and had their fruit unto holinesse, and the end everlasting life; and the way is but one, and so the charge remains false.

Another of his Lies charged on us is, that we ovvn neither Sal­vation, nor Damnation of any person, but of the Light within. This he affirms in his Diaglogue: and for proof brings J. Naylers Love to the Lost, concerning Judgement, where he produces these words, [Page 20] Iudgement passeth upon all that's in the Creature contrary to the life of God, and his judgement must passe upon all that is unrighteous, and they live in that which is for judgement, fire and condemnation: And T.C. saith, It were well for evill persons, if nothing were for judgment and fire but evill principles and practices, &c. What evidence is this, to prove that the people called Quakers own neither Salvation nor Damnation of any person, which is affirmed in both his Books? Is there any thing in these words tending to such a purpose? because I. N. saith, Iudgement passeth upon all that is in the creature, contrary to the life of God, and his judgement must passe upon all that is unrigh­teous, and they live in that which is for fire and condemnation. Doth therefore he, or the people called Quakers deny the Salvation, or Damnation of persons? If in this T. C. had been faithfull to I. N. he might have found in the same Book concerning Judgement, speaking of the wicked; with that which you hate shall you be con­demned, with other vvords to that purpose: And in the same Book concerning the Resurrection, he thus saith; Think of this you wick­ed workers, who live and dye in your sins, and yet please your selves with talking of the Resurrection, &c. A wofull day will it be unto you who are found in your sins, and in love of the world; you prophane E­saus, and cursed Nimrods, &c: You hypocrites, who professe God in words, but in works deny him, &c. A terrible day will this be to you who dye in your sins: And speaking of the children of Light, he saith, That in him we might be found at that day, in whom we looke for a better resurrection; which did we not see to be an unmeasurable re­ward, we have an opportunity to return, &c. And if our hope were onely in this life, we were of all men most miserable, and many other words to the same purpose: And now that T. C. or any other should be so impudent as to charge the people called Quakers for owning neither Salvation nor Damnation of any person, and be so blinde to produce J. N. for a witnesse, who so evidently declares that he owns both.

And this further we say, A day we own, wherein every man shall receive a due reward according to their works done in the body, whether good or evill. Even in that day which God hath appointed to judge the world in righteousness, when the wicked shall not be able to stand in judgement, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. Yea a day when all that are in the graves shall hear the voyce of the Son of God, [Page 21]and shall come forth, they that have done good, to the resurrection of life, and they that have done evill, unto the resurrection of condemnati­on, when a finall separation shall be witnessed, and each receive his sentence, Come ye blessed, go ye cursed; from which sentence there shall be no appeal, nor flying from the execution thereof, Oh consider this ye who are drawing iniquity with cords of vanity! having abominations reigning in you, and iniquity apparently written in your forheads: Ye who now make it a light thing, even to lead the innocent with lies, slanders, & reproaches; verily in that day shall your hands grow weak, which now are strengthened one by another; and your faces gather palenesse, which now can­not blush: Then shall all false coverings be ript off, and all ap­pear as they are; In vain shall it then be for such to say, Lord, Lord, we have preacht and baptized in thy name, &c. Nay hear your sen­tence; Depart you workers of iniquity into everlasting fire, &c.

Another lye by him charged upon us is, That our principles are but the pinciples of the old Ranters, vvhich are out of date, re­vived and brought into credit again by a new dresse, &c. This he affirms in his Dialogue, vvithout mentioning any proof: And in his Glasse for a proof, he saith, That this is true, I need not prove in this place; Any that know the principles of the Ranters may easily discern it. The Ranters would have no Christ but within, no Scripture to be a rule, no Ordinances, no Law but their Lust, no heaven nor glory but here; no sin but what men fancied to be so; no condemnati­on but in the consciences of ignorant ones, &c. And what the Quakers is more or lesse, let their own consciences judge, onely they smooth it over with an outward austere carriage before men, but within are full of pride, filthinesse & abhominations, which by degrees break forth, wit­ness Naylers Exaltation in the West. Here is the charge and the proof of it; but we are confident, he that is svvayed by the least spark of honesty, vvill not finde us guilty on this evidence. He saith, That this is true, I need not prove; had he said, I cannot prove he had spoken the truth, although to confesse himself a lyar and false accuser, for envy and subtelty it selfe can never prove it; and it's very like if he had any evidence, he would produce it; but at last he saith, Witness Naylers Exaltation in the West. Let the Reader a little consider when this time was that he speaks of; it was not untill about the ninth moneth, in the yeare 1656. And [Page 22] I. N. had answered the Dialogue, wherein this Charge vvas layd in the fifth moneth before, and yet novv no evidence produced for proof of this particular, but that vvhich he calls Naylors Ex­altation in the West: So it's clear the charge vvas laid and conti­nued about four moneths, vvithout any evidence; and as its like­ly, if this Exaltation (as he calls it) had not been, he had yet re­mained vvithout proof. We further ansvver, as to the particular vvhich he calls J. Naylers (Exaltation in the West) it's sufficient­ly known to many, that that action vvas not at all ovvned by those vvho profest, and lived in the Truth; and vvere called Quakers, vvhich may more at large appear by George Bishops Book, published in ansvver to Ralph Farmer; But mark these Principles of the Ranters, vvhich he saith are the principles of the Quakers. One is, The Ranters would have no Christ but within, which we utterly deny; and what we own and witnesse concern­ing Christ, vve have already demonstrated: Even he it is that vve bear testimony unto, who fills all things, and preached himselfe the light of the world, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world, vvho is the savation of all those vvho believe in, o­bey and follovv him, and the condemnation of all such vvho re­ject and disobey him.

Another of the Ranters Principles (as he saith) is, No Scripture to be a rule. We say, that vvhich the Scriptures declares vvas the guide and rule of Saints vve ovvn and vvitnesse, and the Scri­ptures of truth to be given forth by that Spirit vvhich could not erre.

Another, No Ordinances. The Ordinances of Christ we ovvn; One Lord, one Faith, one Baptisme, and his Crosse ordained by him vve daily witnesse, which crucifies us to the world, and the world unto us, and its the great power of God to salvation.

Another is, No Law, but their Lust. Thomas Colliers own prin­ciples, as manifested by his practice and confession, appears more like the Ranters then ours: For the grace of God which hath ap­peared to all men, hath taught us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and to live godlily & soberly in this present world. Now T. C. besides those many lyes and false accusations against the Innocent, con­fesses himself guilty of reigning abhominations in his soul, and to be drawing iniquity with the cords of vanity, &c. witness Tiverton [Page 23]writing; Let the rationall Reader judge whose principles are neerest like the Ranters, his or ours.

Another is, No heaven nor glory but here. This we say, that if our hope were only in this life, we were of all men most miserable; but we believe, expect, and wait for a Crown that's immortall, a King­dome which is eternall, reserved for us in the highest heavens, which none can deprive us of.

Another is; No sin but what men fancy to be so. But we say, the breach of the righteous Law of God is sin, what ever men fancy, and the reward thereof must they receive, And whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Another is; No condemnation for sin but in the consciences of igno­rant ones. Here he goes on still charging without proof. Now T. C. affirmed in our hearing at Glastonbury, before many witnesses, that persons may be freed from guilt and condemnation, while motion and action of sin remains: Surely this is the Ranters or Li­bertines principle to commit sinne, and not be condemned for it; what's this but a seared conscience? And herein he declares him­selfe worse then the Ranters, whom he saith, owns condemnation for sin, &c. We say, that Jesus Christ is made manifest to condemn sin in the flesh; and happy are they who are hereof made witnesses. Here judgement and mercy meets together, and righteousness and peace kisses each other.

But at last he saith, They smooth it over with an austere carriage before men, but within are full of filthiness, pride, and abhominations. Thou hypocrite, first pull the beam out of thine owne eye, before thou go about to take a mote out of anothers. Dost thou accuse us for abho­minations and filthinesse within, while thy abhominations reign, and art drawing iniquity with the cords of vanity? Slavish fear hath stopt thy mouth, &c. as by thy own confession in Tiverton writing appears. The Pharisees will rise up in judgement with thee, and such as thou art, who make the out-side clean, while your abho­minations are manifest within and without; for the root must be as the branches, the tree as the fruit, therefore let shame and si­lence cover thee: And now our consciences, unto whose judge­ment T. C. hath appealed, doth clearly acquit us, and condemn him for a Lyar.

Another of his particulars charged upon us is, That Satan blin­ding [Page 24]us with the apprehension of the goodness of our cause, or else a sence of its badness, that he hath hemmed them in with a pretence of their own infallibility, and the ignorance of all o­thers, that they will admit of no sober discourse, nor bring their principles to the tryal of Scriptures, &c. but give railing accusa­tions, hard termes, and hiddeous names, and this is the strength of their arguments, &c. This is the substance of their charge in the Dialogue, where no proof is offered, as other particulars be­fore; and in his Glass he saith, that this is truth, he that runs may read; if to call Persons Lucifer, Devil, Beast, &c. Let the un­derstanding judg, and their pretence of infallibility, carrying all in a mistery, pretending all in the dark but themselves, witnesse Naylors pre­tended answer to my assertations in the Dialogue concerning them. Now mind this Proof, and see where there be any other but his own affirmation; first (as in many others before) invent, and make a lye, and then for proof, when called to it, affirm it over again and say; that this is true, he that runs may read, or this is so clear I need not prove, and so instead of evidence; here is impudency; surely more honesty would have appeared in it, for him to have confest his lyes, then thus to add impudency thereunto; but at last he brings J. Ns. answer to his Assertions, a strange proof, to bring the answer to the Assertions, for proof of the Assertions it is strange; T. C. is not ashamed of his absurdity; what is this but an implicet confession? that the assertions were laid down, without proof, and so if they had not been answered, he yet had had no proof; but at first intended a lye; for if the things asserted had been true (which is denyed) yet he not knowing it, were a lye for him to assert what he knows not, as they swore falsly who said the Lord liveth, Jer. 5. besides Thomas collier confest that be had a sober discourse with a friend at Bristol; Contrary to what he here affirms, and what hideous names are there in J. Ns. answer: Is it a hideous name to call a lyer a lyer, or to tell one that op­poseth himself against Christ and Truth, that he is of Antichrist, and one of Gogs army, one whose lyes, lightness, impudencies and false accusations, appeares as T. C. doth? it is not against scrip­ture rules, to tell him, that he is of his father the Devil, and shall know the judgements of the Lord against him one day for it, for this know; we are not of those that cry peace to the wicked, like [Page 25] C. T. and the Authors of that writing from Tiverton; but as we re­ceive from the Lord, so must give to every one his due por­tion, Judgment to whom is belongs, and this we likewise say, that all that are not turned to the light; are in the dark, and are not turned to Christ, who is the light of the world, and was given for a Covenant of light, and may not we justly say, they are in the dark, who are disputing against it, though they say we judg them in saying so? they are such to whom it belongs, and Childrens bread is not for such; (he that can receive it let him) and that Spirit whom we follow is the Spirit of Truth, which we witness ac­cording to the promise of Christ which is infallible, and so far as any are guided by it they are infallible, and all others are in the dark let them profess what they will, but here we leave him;

And come to other of his lyes (viz.) That amongst all the falfe wayes of Sathan, there is none more pernicious and dangerous, &c. undermines the whole body of Truth, makes an end of Christ in his person, offices, power, and being as man all at once, and so makes an end of justification and salvation all at once, makes an end of the authority of the Scriptures, &c. at once. What a heap of lyes are here at once; surely as a fountain easteth out her waters, so dost thou thy wicked­ness; but now examine his evidence, this as others is affirmed in his Dialogue, without offering any; and in his Glass he saith, that this is all true is manifestly cleared, for none rootes up all at once like this, the person of Christ; see Naylor in his love to the lost, Concer­ning Christ, he humbled himselfe and became obedient to the death, that he might become a living example to all Generati­ons, which no creature could be, the whole creation being in the fall, and then he saith here in Naylors account, Christ is no creature, then no man, no person, for every man is a creature; but Christ is no creature; Naylor saith, then no man, he saith farther page 89. this is he who cannot be limitted, nor his person restrained in one place; who filleth heaven and earth with his presence, and dwel­leth in the bodies of his Saints; and T. G. saith, if this be not to make an end of the person of Christ, he knows not what is? here is a strange conceit of a person, that fills heaven and earth with his presence, and dwelleth in the Saints; blindness with a witness, &c. Now this seemes to be the drift of his argument, as if be­cause [Page 26] J. N. saying Christ humbled himself, &c. and cannot be restrained into one place, but fills heaven and earth, and dwels in the bodies of his Saints, and is a living example to all Gene­rations, which no Creature could be, &c. therefore denyes him to be a person, a man; & so seemes to conclude, that this is to make an end of the person of Christ, else he knows not what is; how doth T. C. erre, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God, but perverts them to his own destruction; how is he covered with darkness, that may even be felt, while he is crying out against the people called Quakers; blindness with a witness? how is he found contradicting the testimony of the Saints, recorded in the Scripture, yea of God himself, who saith unto the Son, Heb. 7.8. Thy throne of God is for ever and ever, &c. Rom. 9.5. Who is over all God blessed for ever, and Col. 1.15,16,17. Who is the Image of the invisible God, all things created by him, &c. This is he who when he had by himself purged our sins, sate down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: and Christs prayer is, I in them, and they in me, and Paul saith, Christ lives in me, and the word is nigh in the heart, and the mouth; and Christ saith, I and the Father are one; and this is he who preached himself the light of the world, the way to the Father, and that none comes to the Father but by him; who is a living example to all Generations, and dwels in the Saints, and this is our testimony of him, and the substance of the testimony, that J. N. gives of him, even the same which the Saints recorded in Scripture gives of him; now seeing the Scriptures directs to the light, and the work which the Ministers of Christ, were sent to accomplish, was to turn men from darkness to the light, and the testi­mony he gives of himself, that he is the light of the world, we say, that all those who follow, and are obedient to this light, do not walk contrary to the scriptures, but the same way that they did who recorded the scriptures, and so whosoever turns from this light perverts the scriptures, and turns from that which the Saints in scriptures directed unto, and so our testimony is one with the scriptures, and the life of them we live; But he speaks of a strong conceit of a person, that fills heaven and earth with his presence, and dwels in his Saints; now in the Epistle to the Heb. it is recor­ded that Christ is the express Image of his Fathers person; and Christ himself saith, I and the Father are one, and he that hath seen me, hath [Page 27]seen the Father also, and that he fills all things, and dwels in the Saints, hath been sufficiently declared all ready; now is Christ, divided? or are their more Christs then one? nay, verily one God, one Christ, one Mediator between God and man, even the man Christ Jesus, whose flesh and blood we own according to the scriptures and affirm, that except ye eat his flesh, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you, though their may be many now as formerly ready to say; how can this man give us his flesh to eat? &c. and that Christ is in heaven, and how can he be in the Saints? this is the mistery hid from ages and generations, yea from the wise and prudent; the Son of man in heaven, though at the same time talking with Nicodemus at Jerusalem, Joh. 3.13. he that can receive it let him, and so our principles are brought to tryal, and found according to the scrip­tures, and inventions denyed, and they are accursed that are found making to themselves Images, and Likenesses; And so T. C. is found slandering the innocent.

Another lye by him charged on us is, that we often use the name of Christ, &c. when indeed it is but a juggle, a cheat, and under that name stab & crucifie him, &c. for Christ was never called Christ in scrip­ture, or Jesus, or Son, &c. but as he was man, truely man, &c. they lay him aside as a thing of nought, and under pretence of Christ within they take an advantage by their principles, as much as in them lieth, to murther the true Christ; this is affirmed in his Dialogue; but as others no proof offered, and in his Glass he endeavours thus to prove it, they talk of the name of Christ for a cheat, a juggle, wit­ness what hath been proved; but we say it is abhominably false witness what hath been answered, but he goes on with his own inventions, a Christ, yet no Creature; a person, but such a one as fills Heaven and Earth. What Christ doth T.C. Imagine? will he make him by whom all things were created part of the creation? if he be one with the Father in the Father and the Father in him, as the Scriptures testify of him, may not we give him the same testimo­ny? But now observe, who follow their inventions, contrary to the Scriptures T. C. or we; he saith Christ was never called Christ in scripture, or Jesus, or Son, but as he was man, truely man in his Dialogue, page 42. The Author to the Hebrews saith 1.3.8. upholding all things by the word of his power, but unto the Son he saith, thy throne O God is for ever and ever, &c. and Isaiah 9.6. To [Page 28]us a Son is given, &c. his name shall be called wonderfull Counsellor, the mighty God. &c. Acts 9.5. I am Jesus whom thou persecutest; and Rom. 9.5. Of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came who is God over all blessed for ever, Amen. Read and tremble thou blind guide, is this scripture or not? is Christ here called Christ, Jesus, and Son, as man or God? surely either thou art ignorant of the Scripture, or denyest this to be Scripture; but as he is found contradicting the Scripture, so himself also; for in his Dialogue, page 42. he saith they often use the name of Christ, &c. that is to let in their principles, &c. for if they did not, &c. every one would fly from them; in his Glass he saith page 8. they never used the name of Christ, unless in con­tempt; now if we never used it but in contempt; can any one think that this would let in our principles, and keep people from flying from us? one time he saith they often use his name, and ano­ther time they never used his name; and then he drawes his conclu­sion from his own confusion, saying by all which it appears that they use the name of Christ but as a juggle, a cheat to deceive Souls by, and indeed stab the true Christ, and justification by him, &c. Such as is the foundation, such is the building, the foundation, confusion and contradiction, and the building a heap of abominable lyes and falsehoods: he saith by all which it appears, &c. what by saying in the Dialogue they often use the name of Christ to let in their prin­ciples and then in the pretended proof of the same particular in his Glasse saith, they never useth his name but in contempt; what Baby­lonish work is here? but still he goes on to fill up his measure, say­ing, all that believe in him, you endeavour to crucifie and murther, by your murtherous words and writings, witnesse your setting up of Nay­lor, to be the true Christ; this we utterly deny, and what Christ we own we have from the truth in our hearts declared; and far­ther touching J. N. we refer the Reader to Georg Bishops Book be­fore mentioned, he farther produceth the words of E. B. in answ. to John Bunnion, Christ is within us, slain in the great City, &c. he is now risen and ascended, &c. Now observe what doth this at all serve to prove the charge? and yet again he concludes his proof thus; they slay the true Christ if ever any people in the world have done it; and so we shall conclude our answer to this particu­lar, and leave it to the understanding unprejudiced Reader to consider, how vain and light the things offered by him are, to [Page 29]prove what he asserts, and whether we might not safely say, that if ever one were given over to lying, slandering and false accusing, T. C. is.

The next lye by him charged on us is; that we deny the birth from above by the Spirit, Joh. 3.5. &c. thus turning from the light of Christ shining in the scriptures, they hearken to, and follow the light of their own hearts, Imaginations of their own minds instead of Christ; this is his charge in his Dialogue; but no proof at all mentioned there, nor in his Glasse that we find, by which it appears he cannot find any thing to say for himself, and so passes this particular in silence; it had been better he had done so by others, then what he hath done, instead of clearing himself of one lye, added severall to it.

How ever farther to manifest the falsenesse of it, we declare that the birth from above by the spirit of God, we own and witnesse according to the scripture, John 3.3,5. without which birth none can enter into the Kingdome of God, and we speak that we know, and testify that we have seen and now enjoy, even that birth wch is brought forth through great travil & many bitter pangs which the red Dragon seeks to devour; this is the heir whom the Husband­men seeks to kill: the man-child who shall rule the Nations with a rod of Iron, the King whose Throne is established in righte­ousness, and of the increase of his Government and peace there shall be no end, glory to his name for ever.

Another of his lyes charged in his Dialogue, is, that we are ene­mies to the true light; but seeing he leaves this without proof both in the Dialogue and Glasse; we shall leave it without answer, upon his head to remain untill he prove it, repent, or be judged for it.

Another lye charged on us by him is, that under the notion of perfection we are guilty of the great and damning sin of unbe­lief; & in his Glasse for proof he saith, that this is truth, what hath been already said is sufficient to manifest; for if the Doctrine of Christ be stories, then we may easily conclude what faith you own in him, beside all your writings hold forth no other faith, but a faith in Christ within you, not on Christ without you; and this is his proof. He now begins to hang his work together, towards the beginning he saith (when he should bring his proof) that [Page 30]which followes shall prove this; and now saith, that this is truth, what hath been already said is sufficient to manifest; the first particulars were to look for evidence from what followed, and now this which followes, must rest on that which went be­fore, and so one looking for help from the other, are both help­less, and fall together; for how shall that which goes before prove this which followes, when it hath no proof for its self; what shifting is here? some time bring the answer to the As­sertions to prove them; some time that which followes shall prove that which goes before, and now that which goes before must prove that which followes; bad shifts indeed; but he concludes this sin you are guilty of; and what hath been said is sufficient to make it manifest; we say what hath been answered hath fully declared T. C. in what he said a Lyer; and so his first particulars, and this also remains without proof: far­ther he saith all your writings hold forth no other faith; but a faith in Christ, within you; not on Christ without you: Can any reasonable man conclude otherwise; but that T. C. hath utte­red too lyes in this sentence; first his words imply that he hath seen all the writings of the people called Quakers, else how dare he say all their writings; now if he hath not seen them all; (as who can believe he hath) then he is a Lyer to say all their writings; and yet here he mentions the writings of no one particular person, and secondly holds forth, no o­ther faith but a faith in Christ within you, not on Christ vvithout you; and George Bishop in his Book, intituled, Jesus Christ the same to day as yesterday and for ever; beares testimony to that Christ vvhich vvas born of the Virgin, vvitnessed a good Confession be­fore Pilate, &c: and several other vvritings testifie the same, &c. And farther vve say, that unto the same Christ do vve bear vvitness as vve have firmly declared; but this vve also say, that they that rest on talking of that Christ vvhich suffered at Jerusalem, and come not to knovv him manifest vvithin them, are but Repro­bates.

Page 9. Other lies charged on us by him are; That we set up a­nother way of Salvation, sacrificing to our owne nets; proclaim that all that own justification in the blood of the Covenant are deceived, trampling under foot the Laws and Ordinances of Christ, judging all [Page 31]that walke therein to be enemies, proclaiming their own rigteousnesse: And then sayes, all these have been sufficiently proved, and are daily witnessed. This we say, some of them have been already falsely charged, and sufficiently made appear to be lyes, but not one of them proved, nor never can; for in the presence of the Lord we deny them, and declare them to be a heap of abominable lies: And as for the proclaiming of our own Righteousnesse, tram­pling under foot the Laws and Ordinances of Christ; judging all that walk in them to be enemies, sacrificing to our own nets; how canst thou be so impudent as to say, All these have been sufficiently proved, when (as we remember) there hath not any proof been offered; and that which thou hast endeavoured to prove, is deni­ed and found false, and wouldst thou now have us believe they have been proved before any proof offered? Blush at such impu­dency. And he goes on, saying, Do they perform any duty to God or man, because the Scripture requires it? We say, we perform du­ties, because God requires it of us; and this is the ground of our obedience, as it was of the Saints that went before; and such as medled with the things of God, when not required by him, he declared his wrath against them, as the Scriptures testifie. Doth not the Lords Prophet say, Isa. 1. To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices, when you come to appear before me, &c? These things the Scriptures declare; yet the Lord saith, who hath requi­red these things at your hands? when you spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you; yea, when you make many prayers, I will not hear. Wash you, make you clean, put away the evill of your doings, cease to do evill, &c. Now can such be owned, who say, they preach and baptize in his name? and are set for the defence of the Gospel, whose abhominations reign, and are drawing iniquity with cords of vanity, &c? Nay, woe is their portion, and this their sentence, Depart ye workers of iniquity.

But T. C. goes on, saying, Do they not call it literal obedience and imitation? Yea, and well we may, when performed by them who are out of the life: For our God is a spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit & in truth; not in the oldness of the letter, but in newness of spirit. Hast thou been so long professing thy selfe a Teacher? a Minister of the Gospel, and yet is thy Ministry come no further then the Letter, Then thou hast but a dead Ministry, [Page 32]the fruits whereof declare the same; that thou art one of them that ran, whom the Lord never sent, and profits not the people. But he goes on with his lyes, saying, All their worke is to reproach and contemn those that own Christ Jesus according to the Scriptures, and desire to obey him, but this suits not to their light within. Thou false accuser, our work is not to reproach or contemn any, but thou thy self art found casting reproach and contempt on the innocent, and those that own Christ according to the Scripture, and obey him, we own, and have unity with; but according to the Scrip­tures hast thou been found to deny him in our hearing before many witnesses, saying, that thou believedst in a Christ which was not in the Saints; when we own him in heaven, and in the Saints also according as the Scriptures testifie, John 3.16. & 17.23. But this thy dark lying spirit, which is turned from the true Light, cannot comprehend, but art reasoning thus; If he be in the Quakers, how can he be in heaven? because E. B. saith, The very Christ of God is within us; when Christ himself, John 3. before mentioned saith, No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven; and yet he was then talking with Nicodemus at Jerusalem, who profest himself a Teacher in Israel, and yet saith, how can these things be? If thou hast an eare to hear, thou mayst hear. And so T. C. is found guilty of that which he chargeth us, reproaching and contemning such as own Christ, and obey him according to the Scripture; and also denying him as Christ himselfe and the Saints in Scripture bears witness of him. He further saith, this suits not with their Light within, but the true light in believers teachers obedience, &c. We say, while thou art talking of the true light in believers, art turned from it in thy selfe, and dost not walk in it: For he that walks in the light as he is in the light, knowes the blood of Christ cleansing from all sin, which thou art ignorant of, who hast been so long pro­fessing thy selfe one of his Ministers; and yet so far from clean­sing, as that thy abhominations reign, and art drawing iniquity with cords of vanity.

Page 10. But T. C. still goes on with his work, adding and as­serting lyes; but offers no proof, but his own affirmations, say­ing; They condemn the poor humble soules that live in the sight and sense of their sins for Publicans; that this is clear and truth (he saith) [Page 33] is manifest, else what means your crying so much up of perfection, and condemning others, because they say they have a sense of their sin, & it is their burthen. We say, what means thy lying, but that thou hast to fill up thy measure; produce one of us, or that is owned by us if thou canst, that did condemn the poor humble souls that live in the sight and sense of their sins for Publicans; or for say­ing, they have a sense of it, when indeed it is their burthen: But such as thou art, the light and life of God condemns, where ever it is made manifest, who art talking of a sight and sense of sin; but it's not your burthen, because you still live in it, and plead for continuance of it. Now how many yeares hast thou profest thy selfe a Teacher of others? and a Preacher of remission of sins? and yet hast thy abhominations reigning, and art drawing ini­quity with cords of vanity, &c. as by thy confession appears.

But there is a generation, who by the confession of a sight, sense, and burthen of their sin get ease and liberty to continue in sin. Now these the light of the world condemns; for it is they, and they onely who confesse and forsake their sins (not who confesse and live in sin) shall finde mercy. But thou sayest, what means your crying up of perfection? We say, he that desires to keep his sinne, though he will confesse it, no wonder he cryes out against such as cryes up perfection.

Now why mayst not thou as well dislike, and charge God himself, Christ, his true Servants and Ministers, for command­ing, pressing after, and labouring for perfection? as how full the Scripture is to this purpose, he that truly views it may easily find. But consider, whose Minister dost thou now shew thy selfe? The Ministers of Christ laboured to present every man perfect in Christ, for which end they were sent, and received gifts for the perfe­cting of the Saints: And art thou crying out against such as are crying up perfection? Cease thy profession to be Christs Minister, while thou art opposing that work for which such were sent. Here thou fully manifests thy self, for whom thou Ministrest: And fur­ther art crying out; You self-righteous Pharisees pretend your selves free, and condemn the generation of the righteous who maintain the spiri­tuall warfare, that dare be so audaciously impudent and wicked, &c. That because we say perfection is not to be attained till Christ comes from heaven, that therefore we deny perfection. T. C. [Page 34]The Pharisees may rise up in judgement and condemn thee, for they made clean the outside; which thou confesses to be so defiled, as to draw iniquity with cords of vanity, &c. and hast thy abhominati­ons reigning in thee, and yet darest to be so audaciously arrogant, impudent, and wicked, as to say, thou art set for the defence of the Gospell, as in thy Epistle before thy Dialogue.

Consider further; what spirituall warfare dost thou maintain, while the strength of sin hath wrested all thy weapons out of thy hands: And thy abhominations (and not Christ) reign in thee, whose being in thee thou denyedst at Glastonbury in our hearing, before many witnesses; and so according to the Scripture art a Reprobate. Now whose servant thou art is evident, thy owne confession in Tiverton writing testifies against thee. Art not thou one of Satans slaves, while thy abhominations reign? and yet dost thou talk of maintaining the spiritual warfare? Now ob­serve, is it likely that one, that the strength of sin hath wrested all weapons out of his hands, should stand in the warfare against sin? how can it be but that abhominations should reign in such a one; and yet he saith, he is set for defence of the Gospell. Surely he hath badly discharged his trust, to suffer the enemy to wrest all his weapons out of his hand: It's against the Lamb that thou art engaged, as by thy own confession and practice appears. Did ever any one of us say, that perfection was to be attained before the coming of Christ? But this is it we say; The Son is come, of whose coming we are witnesses, and this the Saints in Scripture witnessed, 2 John 5.20. And here thou art found to be of the spirit of Anti­christ, who art denying his coming, in whose strength and pow­er we presse hard towards perfection, believing we shall attain it; but thou sayest, pag. 10. Its your duty to oppose sin, and live by faith in Christ. We say so too, rather then to live in lying, and in his strength onely do what we say. Now mark thy saying and pra­ctice, how do they oppose sin, where abhominations reign, and drawing iniquity with cords of vanity, and have iniquity apparent­ly written in their fore-heads? verily they are Satans slaves, and servants of sin; and what faith is that which these live in? the faith of Saints purified their hearts, & in it they witnessed victory over sin and world, the mystery whereof is held in a pure con­science; and where sin reigns, they know it not, but are stran­gers [Page 35]to it, though they may talk of living in Christ: He that is in Christ is a new creature, all old things are done away, and they are no longer servants of sin, to obey it in the lust thereof; but servants un­to rigteousnesse, and have their fruit unto holinesse, and the end ever­lasting life: And as many as walke according to this rule, peace be on them; but woe to them that are drawing iniquity with the cords of va­nity, have abhominations reigning, and iniquities apparently written in their fore-heads; who declare their sins as Sodome, and hide them not. We say, it is well to confesse and forsake sin, and to bring them forth to judgement, and not to hide them from the light, but to be so many years confessing of sin, and not onely still live in them, but draw iniquity with cords of vanity; what do these but declare their sins as Sodome? or at least as the Jewes, who would lye and commit abhominations, and yet cry, The Temple of the Lord, or lean upon the Lord, and say, Is not the Lord amongst us? They who have ears to hear, let them hear.

Page 10. Another lye by him charged on us is, That we shut up the Kingdome of heaven, and will not enter therein our selves, nor suffer them that would. For proof of this he saith; This likewise is true and clear; for the way that God hath ordained to enter into the Kingdome, is by faith in Christ crucified, but you will not enter as hath been cleared; but we say falsly charged, never yet cleared: But consider, how dost thou know that this is the way? Is it not be­cause the Saints left it upon record in the Scriptures? and so the wickedest man in England may know it; but thy confession and practice declares thee not to be in it, and so thou knowest it but by report of those who were witnesses of it, and walked in it.

Now how vain a thing it is for any to talk of the way to the Kingdome of God, while they walk in the way that leads to the kingdome of Satan. This we say and know, The way to the king­dome of God is by faith in Christ crucified, the same that preacht him­selfe the light of the world, and there is none beside it. Now this faith where it's witnessed, purifies the heart, gives victory over sin, o­vercomes the world, and is held in a pure conscience, which all are ignorant of, and far from, whose Iniquities are apparently written in their fore-heads, have abhominations reigning, and are drawing Iniquity with cords of vanity; for no unclean thing shall ever enter into this Kingdome, nor he that loveth or maketh a lye, what [Page 36]ever is profest. We further say, It's vain for any to talk of Christ crucified, while strangers to his Crosse, which we witnesse to be the great power of God to salvation; and choose rather then our liberty, wherein we rejoyce, being daily called to take it up.

Now there is a generation who professe to be Christs Disciples, that take not up his Crosse, but say they will when called there­unto. What? professe to be Christs Disciples, and not take up his daily Crosse? this profession is vain, and such by Christ are denyed to be his Disciples; who saith, Whosoever will be his Disci­ple, must take up his Crosse daily and follow him: For the way to the Kingdome is straight, through many tribulations, and an entrance thereinto is freely administred unto us; and the same as the Lord moves us, do we freely declare unto others; and so far from shut­ting up the Kingdom of heaven, as by T. C. is falsely charged on us: But to prove that which can never be, he goes on, saying, You own no flesh of Christ, but all spirit, therefore you shut up the way to the Kingdome. But we say, The flesh of Christ do we own, there­fore T. C. belies us; And what Christ is, we have firmly decla­red, even the same that the Scriptures testifies of, whose flesh is meat indeed which he gives for the life of the world, John 6.51. But he goes on in his old way, saying, That they will not enter, unless they may enter by their own righteousness, and not by the blood of the Covenant. First, by the blood of the Covenant you will not enter, that is clearly often proved: We say it hath been falsely charged, but never yet proved; for Christ Jesus we witnesse to be a Cove­nant of Light, and an entrance into the Kingdome which is ever­lasting, by faith in his blood to us is administred, by which we are redeemed from our former vain conversation, and from whom we receive power and strength to do his will, and not our own; who of God is made unto us wisdome, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. He further sayes, Then it must be by your own righteous­nesse if you expect to enter, but in truth you never look to come there. We answer as before, an entrance is freely administred unto us into the kingdome which is everlasting, but not by our own righ­teousnesse; for we suffer the losse of it, with our bodily exercises, will-worship, voluntary humilities, with vain imitations, forms, and traditions, which we sometimes lived in, while short of the life, which none knows but they that hath the Son, in whose [Page 37]righteousnesse alone we now stand, and rejoyce in the losse of our own, that we might be found alone in him, in whom is accep­tance, the will, the deed, and the power is onely his, and so is the glory for ever:

And then T. C. brings these words of J. N. There is a seed to which the promise of Redemption is, &c. Doth not the Apostle say the same in effect? The promise is to the seed, not seeds, as of many, &c? And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, &c. J. N. also saith; All who know the redemption of Christ by his precious blood, are redeemed from the vain conversation, &c. And much more he hath to the same purpose, wherein he clearly and fully declares that he owns Justification and Redemption of persons, not by their own rigteousnesse, but by the blood of Christ; and so the witnesse Th. Collier produces for him, is found to give testimony against him.

Another charge against us is, That we leave the weighty things of faith and obedience to the Laws and Ordinances of Christ as vile and contemptible: And for his proof, he saith; This is a truth, there needs no proof: But we say, this is a lye that cannot be proved: But he goes on with his work, saying, Else what means not onely their leaving undone the Ordinances of Christ, as Baptisme, Church-fellowship, breaking of bread, &c. Even the whole profession of the faith of the Gospel, but re­proaching it, and those who in faithfulnesse to Jesus Christ walk in obedience to Christ therein.

Now this we say as before, the Ordinances of Christ, do we own, and his dayly cross do we witness; yea one Baptism, even the Baptism of Christ have we received, and are baptized into his death, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being content patiently to suffer with him for a while, that we may reign with him for ever; yea and Church fellowship are we brought into, and live in where our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ; where all the faithfull feeds at one Ta­ble, and drinks of one Fountain: being heirs of one inheritance, and the life and power of the Gospel do we partake of, and far from reproaching it or any others; the Lord is our witness, for by him are we taught better things, and all those who in faithful­nesse obey him we dearely own, and in the life have unity with: [Page 38]but such as we find making a profession of the name of Christ, his Ordinances, the Faith of the Gospel, and obedience to him, and know not his voice, but are setting up their own inventions, imitating such as went before without their Authority, and knows not the true Faith which purifies the heart, gives victory over sin and the World; but are drawing Iniquity with cords of vani­ty, abhominations reigning, not Christ, iniquities apparently written in their foreheads, not the Fathers name; these are they who professe God in words, but in deeds deny him: against all such do we bear testimony, and let such as names the name of Christ depart from Iniquity; for because of such things is the wrath of God revealed, and let all those who professe the faith of the Gospel, shew it by their vvorks of Righteousness, and not live in vvorks of vvickedness, for vve dare not count them clean, vvhich are vvicked; but in the name and fear of the Lord, vve say vvo unto them, that call evil good, and good evil, that put darknesse for light, and light for darknesse, and are dravving Iniquity vvith cords of vanity.

Then he produces J. N. in his love to the Lost, concerning, Baptisme; where he saith, their forms of Water, and God cannot be limited to any form or rudiment; now J. N. is speaking of such as keep themselves disputing and jangling about outward ceremonies in an imitation of Johns Ministry, calling it the Bap­tism of Christ; but so far from the power of Christ or John, as not come to the form of either; and saith their form of Water and God cannot be limitted, &c. And we say such may well be called formes of Water, who are thus taking on them forms, but are from the life and power, as their own Confession, witnesse Tiver­ton writing. T.C. further saith, let them not think this will be a good excuse for them in the great day of the Lord, that we took them up from the Letter, to which we say, the day is come, that they that worship God must worship him in Spirit and in truth; and for all your litteral obedience, you are no better then those of whom the Lord speaks, Isa. 1. While your abhominations are thus reigning, your iniquities apparently written in your foreheads, and you drawing it with cords of vanity, and are mockers of God, for­mall in holy duties, and the World like a canker hath eaten out all the divine sweetness of regenerating & sanctifying grace, [Page 39]&c. as witnesse your own confession in Tiverton writing' hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obey­ing the voyce of the Lord? wash you, make you clean, &c. but T.C. farther saith, God can and doth limit his people to a visible Rule and order, wherein they shew their faith in him, love to him, and his Authority over them, &c. We say that God hath ac­cording to his promise tent the spirit of truth, which guides his people into all truth, and put his Law in their hearts, and written it in their inward parts, &c. And this the Saints in scripture witnessed, and by it were kept unto him with whom we give in this testimony that the spirit of truth is come, which guides into all truth; and all those who are led by it are the Sons of God, and so of the truth of the scriptures are we witnesses, and have their testimony for and with us: And then he farther saith, page 11. We blesse God that we have the Letter, and that he hath given us his spirit through the Ministry, and hath in any measure subjected our hearts to his Authority in the Letter, &c. We say let him that mentions the name of God depart from Iniquity, and stop they mouth, and leave boasting of being subject to his Authority, until thou witnesse cleansing from, and Dominion over abhominations, which by thy own confession are yet reigning in thee. He still goes on saying, so undermining all the Ordinances of Christ, and laying of them aside as vile and contemptable, else what meanes not only their judging all except themselves to be carnal, &c? and themselves Pharisees, &c. Thou Hypocrit be silent; how hast thou judged us, and called us selfe righteous Pharisees? &c: and now sayest we judge all but our selves; thou confest we profess to own Christ, and press after holiness, selfe-denyall and perfe­ction, and seem to be most holy, selfe denying, &c. and that our lives seem to demonstrate that we are perfect and free from sin, and yet art charging us for judging, who judge according to Christs rule exprest in the Scripture to know the tree by his fruit, and so because we judge thee by thy fruits, and not thy profession, thou art crying out against us for judging, we say again behold the Lord comes in flames of fire, to render vengeance against all such ungodly sinners, who profess his name in words, but in workes deny him. There­fore cease thy talking of thy Ordinances of Christ, of faith in him, obedience and love to him; and of making mention of his name [Page 04]unti [...]l thou depart from Iniquity, and know Dominion over those abhominations, which are now reigning in thee; for our God is just, and will render to every one a due reward according to their works; But thou sayst its the way to make an end of all saith and profes­sion at once; this vve say, of all such faith and profession vvhich thou livest in, vve trample upon it, in the name, povver and Au­thority of the living God, yea all that profession of God in vvords, vvhere vvorks deny him, as thine do by thy ovvn confession: and vvhat is here proved against thee, and that faith vvhich doth not purify the heart nor overcome sin, vvhat is it better then the faith of Devils, and is not thine short of this? for the Devils believe and tremble, vvhile thou art speaking against trembling. And thou sayest, but indeed vve are bad and vile and vvretched; yea thy actions declare thee so to be; hovv many years hast thou been confessing thy badnesse and vilenesse, and yet continuest so? hast thou never read in the Scriptures he that confesseth and forsaketh his sin shall find mercy; thou sayest we believe that he hath made us accepted in the beloved, and in him he doth accept our services, &c. He that is in him is a new Creature, old things are done away; and they that are Christs have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts; Thou farther sayest, we do not only live by grace now, but we hope for the mercy of God, &c. The grace of God teacheth to deny ungodlynesse and wordly lust, and to live righteously, godlyly and soberly, in this present world; but what grace do you stand in, whose iniquities are apparently written in your foreheads, Abhominations, reigning, and drawing iniquity with cords of vanity, and what hope is yours, but the hope of the Hypocrite that perisheth? for they that truly hopes for his appearing, purifieth themselves as he is pure, 1 Joh. 3.3. and this is far different from what appears in you, who are as before exprest in Tiverton wri­ting: Farther he saith, in this grace we stand poor and needy, &c. We say they that stand in the grace of God, though they may stand poor and needy, yet not wicked and ungodly, for the grace of God teacheth to deny ungodlynesse, &c. and this in the fear and name of the Lord we utterly deny, that such stand in the grace of God whose Abhominations reign, and are drawing iniquitie with Cords of vanity, &c. What is all your sacrifices better then the offering of Swines blood, or the cutting off of a dogs neck? verily the Lord is so [Page 41]far from accepting such services, as that they are ahominable unto him; And thou farther sayest, rejoycing, that he hath accepted of such poor ones as we are to honor him in the profession of his name: we say the joy of the wicked is but as the crackling of thorns under a pot; and what is yours otherwise if your wickednesse be according to your own confession in Tiverton writing; surely in vain do you cry the Temple of the Lord, the Ordinances of Christ; while thus defiled with your Abhominations; against such a profession, and Professors of it, will the Lord appear to render vengeance, whose works deny him; and in this faith and profession thou sayest, thou art confident that God will keep a remnant to his Kingdom and glory, notwithstanding all the rage of Devils, Quakers, and men; We say there is no unclean thing shall ever enter into the Kingdome of God; and therefore vain is thy confidence, that God will keep such a remnant which he by his faithful Servants declares, shall never enter therein; What will that God, before whom the wicked cannot stand, & whose eyes cannot behold the thing that is evil, suffer such a remnant to en­ter in or be kept to his Kingdome, whose abhominations reignes, and are drawing Iniquity with cords of vanity? nay the remnant that the Lord hath and will choose, shall be of an upright heart, and without guile in their mouthes, not mockers of God, and they that comes on Mount Sion, must be such whose garments are not defiled, and are redeemed from the Earth, not the Earthly mind standing in them, and who have the Fathers Name (not Ini­quity) apparently written in their foreheads.

Another lye charged on us by him is, that we make God a lyer, and for his proof he saith, they that say they have no sin deceive them­selves, and what in them lyeth, make God a Lyer, it is the Scripture Language, read your own doom, 1 John 1.

Now what evidence is this to prove that the people called Qua­kers make God a Lyer, if thou canst, produce that person amongst them, who make God a Lyer, or that have said he hath not sin­ned; for that is the Scripture language, he that saith that he hath not sinned made God a Lyar; but what is this to the people called Quakers, that Scripture we own, but it doth not at all serve for thy purpose, unless thou prove the people called Quakers say they have not sinned, and so until then, it must rest as a lye invented by thee, [Page 42]and not that we are guilty of it; And farther we say, all have gone out of the way, all shut up under sin, and all that come truly to know Christ Jesus, and faith in his blood, know salvation and cleansing from sin, who is made manifest to destroy the works of the Devill, and to save his people from their sins, And we know that God is true, and is the avenger and punisher of lyes and Lyers.

Another of his lyes charged on us is, that we destroy civil cour­tely as God hath commanded it, and for proof saith, that is proved in the Dialogue, and their ovvn practice vvitness it, levelling all conditions, vvitnesse likevvise, Magistrate, people, Husband, Wife, Parents, Children, Master, Servant all alike, no diffe­rence in the Quakers Religion; witnesse George, for in the latter end of his pretended word to the Gentiles, &c. he saith all to the light within, &c. Now mark his proof: first he saith its proved in the Dialogue; we say its falsly charged in the Dialogue; but no proof offered that we are guilty of it; he there mentions several Scriptures which we own; neither can he prove us guilty of the breach of one of them; he saith also their own practices witnesse it; Now if he means the vain practise of this Generation, which is usually called Complements; many vain wicked words used to no good purpose: but in much deceit, in pretending service and friendship, when the contrary is intended, and respect of persons, such civil courtesy and vain customes we do deny, and bear testimony against; and so did the Saints recorded in Scrip­ture, The customs of the Heathen are vain, and Christs flock were chosen out of the World, and bore testimony that their deeds were evil; And farther we declare, that it is our duty and practise to do good unto all, and the several conditions and relations of Magistrates, and people, Husbands and Wives, Parents and Children, Masters and Servants, we own and practise according to the Scriptures, and deny the contrary;

But he saith witnesse George, all to the light within, &c. as if to di­rect to the light within, were to destroy civil courtesy, and level all conditions: a wicked conclusion, it being so far from destroy­ing conditions and relations, before exprest, that it preserves them, and such as are guided by it, know and practise their se­veral duties therein; He farther saith, a learned piece full of Di­vinity [Page 43]in Foxes account, observe his light and scoffing Spirit, the false Leaders mark, and this scripture fulfilled in the last dayes shall come scoffers, &c. But T. C. goes on and concludes his evidence with an addition of many lyes, saying that under pretence of perfe­ction they have brought in a Religion made up of infidelity, pride, dis­obedience, hypocrisy, trampling of the blood of Christ under foot, &c. The truth of this hath been largly manifest in what hath been said and testified before from their own writings, words and practises; we say, what word, writing, or practise hast thou produced, of any of the people who professe and live in the truth that are called Quakers? & the falseness of what hath been by thee said, hath been sufficiently declared by what hath been answered; and thou found guilty of that hell-born sin of lying.

Which is the next particular by him charged on us; and for proof saith, witnessed that notwithstanding their infidelity, pride, dis­obedience, &c. yet pretend themselves perfect, free from sin, &c. what evidence is this, but three lyes produced to prove one, for he saith their infidelity, pride, disobidience, &c. which is by us denyed, and never yet by him proved, and so both charge and evidence is sound false, and how grosly guilty hereof himself is, what hath been before proved against him is sufficient to manifest; yet far­ther he goes on, saying, the truth of all is made manifest, in that light that hath discovered them, &c. Now how contrary to truth this af­firmation is, we may leave to the impartial unprejudiced Reader to judge, for there is several particulars returned to him by J. N. to rest on his head as lyes, for which he offers no proof at all, but layes them down in his Dialogue, and not mention them in his Glass, and how vain and insufficient the evidence by him offered for the rest is found, we have sufficiently made manifest, and yet he comes with even height of impudency, and says, the truth of all is made manifest, &c. And then he leaves it to the Reader, say­ing, be impartial, and thou wilt be warned of the most dangerous and pernitious Principles that hath appeared, &c. The truth, and true professors of it in former ages met with no better account from the enemies of it, a sect every were spoken against; Christ himselfe in whom was no guile found, yet crucified as a Blasphemer, and his Mi­nisters and Servants accounted pestilent fellowes, movers of sedition, [Page 44]not fit to live, such as turned the world up side down; and we are not better then they, but herein find the Scriptures fulfilled; the Dis­ciple is not above his Master, &c. And we also farther say, let the Reader be impertial, and we are confident, he as many lyes af­firmed in that Glasse, as ever he saw in so small a volume, beside the scoffing, light, absurd, arrogant, contradictory, confused expressions therein contained.

And then in the 13. page, he saith Naylor in his pretended answer, runs over and sets down many particulars, but answers none; Let his Book herein bear testimony against thee that thou speakest false; hath he not answered thee touching perfection, the light, & other particulars? as for that catalogue of lyes by thee charged on us, and by him returned to thee, what answer should be given more then to deny them, while thou hast only charged, and for the most part, not so much as offered any proof for them? T. C. farther saith, only page 8. he forms something of his own invention, &c. That is, that I did affirm the Scripture was Christ; judge if Naylor be not a grevious Lyer; to assert such a thing for answer; We say there is no such thing asserted by J. N. in that page of his Book, nor any other that we find, nor any words tending to such a pur­pose, and so still T.C. is found a grievous Lyer, to affirm things so notoriously false.

Pag. 13. He farther saith, Christ prayeth for none but such as be­lieve through their word, John 17.20. &c. If Naylor or any of the Quakers do know of any converted to Christ since that time, with­out a Bible or Ministry from the Bible; Let them manifest it if they can, &c. I say God hath limitted us to a Bible.

We answer, was Paul converted by a Bible, or a Ministry from it? Was it a Bible or Christ that Peter preached, Act. 2.36. when three thousand souls were added to the Church? Is it not the same way which he declares, that the Prophets prophecyed of? and were saved by? even him whose day Abraham saw, unto whom the Gospel was preached, and was the Rock that followed Israel. And so the Apostles. Was it a Bible, or Christ that they preached to bring people to repentance by? And so how art thou found here bear­ing testimony against the Scriptures and thy self, setting up an­other way to conversion then what the Ministers and Apostles of Christ, yea, Christ himself preached, who said, I am the way to [Page 27]the Father, and no man can come to the Father but by me: And he was the same yesterday as to day, and for ever. Art not thou one of those who art searching the Scriptures, and thinks therein to have eternall life, but will not come unto Christ that thou mayest have life? But thou sayest that Naylor reproacheth Christ, in accounting the way of converting souls by the Ministry of Christ, in the use of the Bible to be new. Now J. N. doth not say that the Mini­stry of Christ is new, but advances it above all other, and is char­ging thee for setting up another way to Conversion, then what is declared in the Scriptures of Truth, who declared Christ the way and no other, who was the foundation of the Prophets, as well as of the Apostles: And this we say, there is many now in those dayes (such as thou art) which take a Ministry from the Bible, and steale the Prophets, Christs, and the Apostles words which te­stifies of Christ, yet never knew the Ministry of Christ: But they run, yet I sent them not (saith the Lord) therefore they profit not the people. Out of thine own mouth be thou judged to be one of them, witnesse Tiverton Writing, where thou with others confessest, that all your weapons are wrested out of your hands; and the true Ministers of Christ had their Ministry from that which was before the Scriptures, even from the word which was in the beginning, and this the Scriptures witnesse.

But thou sayst, The Scripture is the absolute rule of Saints the writ­ten Law as in the Old Testament, so it is in the New, and good it were for the Quakers if they could yet so own it. We say, that that law writ­ten is the present ministration and absolute rule of Saints: For thus saith the Lord, It shall come to passe in the latter days that I will write it in their hearts, &c. The fulfilling of which promises we are wit­nesses of; even the Law of God written in our hearts, which is to us an absolute rule; For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avail­eth any thing, but a new creature; and as many as walke according to this rule, peace be on them, &c. And here we have the Scriptures bearing testimony with us, but we do not know that T. C. hath any Scripture to bear testimony with him in saying, That the Scripture is the absolute Rule of Saints; and so the testimony of the Scriptures do we own, but deny Tho: Colliers. He saith, page 14. the denying his Book, false Doctrine, Lyes, Antichristian, another Gospel, &c. he can comfortably bear for his Lords sake: His ser­vant [Page 46]thou art to whom thou art obedient: And while thy abhomi­nations reigne, and art drawing iniquity with cords of vanity; for whom dost thou work? He that commits sin is of the Devill. And this know, that according to thy work so shall thy reward be: Therefore beware of dreaming on in a vain profession: For though thou mayest say at the last day, Lord, Lord, in thy name have I preached, baptized, &c. yet workers of Iniquity must depart. And then he saith page 14. That the light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world, is the light of nature which all men have by Christ, as in his Book is largely manifest, and proved by Scrip­ture: For answer we say, the thing is not manifest, neither hath he proved it by the Scripture. Indeed in his Book there is some of his own inventions and imaginations touching a light of Na­ture, and Additions, and meanings of his own put on the Scrip­tures, but so far from being proved by Scriptures, that there is no mention of a Light of Nature in the Scriptures produced by him, nor in any other Scripture we know of; but that which John, a man sent from God saith, is the true light which was in the beginning, by whom all things were made, he saith, is the light of na­ture; but whose testimony is to be received, Johns or his, let the spirituall man judge; we adhere to John's, and deny his.

He further saith, page 14. Let Naylor prove that Christ light­eth all men with the saving light, &c. and rages at his blindness, &c. because he hath seen so far into the life of our Religion, as to discover it, which makes them startle, and will prove their fall, in perswading people that there is no other way then the light of the world to bring souls to God, he instances John 8.12. We answer; Oh wicked blasphemy, will this prove our fall, to per­swade people that there is no other way then the light of the world to bring souls unto God? verily this will be the fall of all that oppose it: But whosoever builds here, the gates of hell shall never prevail a­gainst him. Christ saith, I am the light of the world, I am the way to the Father, and none can come to the Father but by me. But who said, He is a saving light to all; we say, he is the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world, according to John 19 And the same light which leads all those out of darknesse who follow him, will be the condemnation of all those who reject and disobey him: The same Christ who is set for the rising, is also [Page 47]for the fall of many in Israel; and not one light, one Christ for the saving of some; and another light, another Christ for the con­demnation of others; but one and the same light, Christ for both. As for thy seeing into the life of our Religion, &c. verily the de­sire of our souls is, that all might come to the knowledge of it, but thou art yet ignorant of it; for it is the mystery hid from the wise and prudent, even Christ in us the hope of glory, whose being in thee thou hast denyed, and so art smitten with blindnesse, and weariest thy selfe to finde the door. Thou art thinking that we endeavour to hide our Principles, and would not have them ma­nifest; when as that which we have received in the eare, we declare on the house-top; but the ground of blindnesse is in thy selfe, who hast eyes and see not, eares and hears not, a heart but canst not under­stand; for that wisdome wherein thou standest cannot perceive the things of God, because they are spiritually discerned. And until thou own him the light of the world, as the Scriptures testifie of him, thou canst never know the way to the Father, nor see into the life of our Religion, for our life is hid with Christ in God. But thou say­est, thou wilt admit him to be the Light of the world, as in thy book is manifest; verily thou must own him the light of the world, as the Scriptures declare him, or thou wilt be deceived in the day of try­al, when thou lookest for salvation by him. We further say, we own him as the Scriptures testifie of him, even the Light of the world, the way to the Father, the lifes the truth, the mighty power of God.

He further goes on page 14. saying, Read your confusion you blinde Quakers. The Apostle saith, he had not attained, neither was he per­fect, &c. We say, we presse towards the mark for the price of our high calling of God in Christ Jesus; And let as many as be perfect be thus minded. And if Paul had attained Christ, dost thou say he had not attained perfection? For Christ is perfect; and he saith, Let as many as be perfect, &c. Was not he himselfe one of those many? and so we say we have attained to that which is perfect, and are pressing forward: And mayest not thou as well charge Paul for blindnesse and confusion as we, who owned and witnessed perfe­ction, and yet was pressing forward?

Again he saith; Prove that ever any of the Saints in Scripture did like you Quakers say, they were perfect here, any otherwise then by faith in Christ, which we own and witnesse? We say, [Page 48]do wee own it otherwise then by saith in Christ? and in this faith do wee witnesse victory over sin and the World: but for thee to say, which we own and witness, what doth it profit? for this that know O vaine man that faith without workes is dead: now what works or fruites doth thy faith produce, who art Drawing Inqui­ty with Cords of vanity, and whose Abhominations are reigning in thee, &c. as wittnesse Tiverton writing; what are these but fruites of Sodome, and Clusters of Gomorrah? therefore cease thy profession of faith untill it produce better fruits, but thou thy selfe wilt own some were perfect in the Scripture, why then dost thou bid us prove it? that is sincere, upright walking with God, &c. wee say wee own it no otherwise but according to the Scriptures; for no workers of Inquity can stand in his presence, nor walke with him: now from this perfection thou art far off, who while thou pretendest to wait for the Counsell of the Lord; Confessest thou art Drawing Iniquity with Cords of vanity, art Lukewarme, formall in holy Dutyes, this is far from Sincerity and upright­ness pag. 15; Thou farther sayst, All that Do indeed, Quake and tremble at the word of the Lord, will quake & tremble at the Delusions of these poore, blind deluded people, that are deceiving and deceived: here the Deceiver is talking of Deceiving and being deceived; Wee say let the Hypocrite first pull the Beam out of his own Eye, be­fore hee meddle with a mote in anothers, thou sayest thou knowest the Letter of Scripture is the Rule of Saints, and the Spirit the Guide to that Rule, wee say the Letter kills but the Spirit gives life; that which the Scripture declares to be the Saints guid, Rule, and Leader, wee own, and have formerly declared, but what guide and rule dost thou walke by as thy practise and Confession declare? is it not the Prince of Darknesse, and his Laws? therefore cease talking of the Saints Rule and guide, while thou art thus Ignorant of it, and walking Contrary to it.

And so now thou concludest thy Lyes, Lightness, scoffes, Re­proaches, and Slanders, saying: I say no more but leave them to the Lord, whom I earnestly desire in mercie to looke upon them, &c. wee say let him that mentions the name of God depart from Iniquity, for the prayers of the wicked are an abhomination to the Lord, and if the Lord will not heare them that regard Iniquity in their hearts, shall such be heard whose Iniquities are apparently written in [Page 49]their Foreheads and are Drawing of it, with Cords of vanity? wee farther say, with the Lord wee rest, in his armes are wee preser­ved from the wicked who bend their bowes, shoot out their arrowes even bitter words: yea in vaine do they plott, and Imagin mis­chiefe, their Snare is broken and wee are escaped and the Mischiefe which they causelessly devised against the Innocent, is fallen upon their own heads, glory to the Lord for ever; As for that which hee calls Naylors exaltation in the west: wee refer as for­merly to George Bishops Booke in Answer to Ralph Farmer, intitled the throne of truth exalted.

And thus have wee brought this Glass to the Light, wherein whosoever impartially views it, may easily observe what it re­presents, and is contained in it, it Beares the Image of the Prince of darknesse, and containes many absurdities con­tradictions, Lyes, slanders and reproaches, yet affirmed and pub­lished with as much impudency, as falsness, as if the Author neither feared God, nor regarded man, so this Day the Scrip­ture is fullfilled in our Eyes and Eares, that the Enemies of God, have consulted together with one consent and are confede­rate against the Lord, the tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmae­lites of Moab, and the Hagarius, Geball, and Amon and Amalick, the Philistians with the inhabitants of Tyre.

The Lord having now appeared in great Love, power, and Ma­gesty, to gather a remnant out off and from all kindreds, tongues, Nations and families of the Earth, to beare Testimony against all the unrighteous Deeds of the World; all Nations, kinreds formes, sects and professions, are now consulting, and taking counsell together against this Remenant, and are drawing up their forces against the holy City, Ashur also is joyned with them, hee that hath an eare to heare let him heare: but this Mount Sion can never be moved, for God is in the midest of her: and though her gates stand upon by Day, yet no uncleane thing can ever enter therein, neither any that worketh abhomination, or that loveth & maketh a lye: but only they whose names are written in the Lambs booke of life.

And therefore why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine Mischiefe: for ye shall bee slain all the sort of you, as a broken wall, and a sa tottering sence shall ye be whose fall comes suddenly without remedy; for he that sits in the heavens laughs, yea the Lord [Page 50]hath you exceedingly in derision, hee hath set his King upon his holy hill of Sion: Who doth and shall reigne till all his Enimies be made his foot stool, the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.