A Fuller Discovery OF THE Dangerous Principles, And lying spirit of the People called Quakers made manifest, in George Whitehead, John Whitehead and George Fox the younger.

In their Book against Iohn Horne and Thomas Moore of Lin Regis in NORTHFOLK.

Written by the said Thomas Moore and Iohn Horne for the fuller satis­faction of all such as desire to be further satisfied about the evil and erroniousnesse of the said People called Quakers.

Most men will proclame every man his own goodnesse, but a faith­ful man (to Christ and his Cause) who can find? Prov. 20. 6.
I marvel yee are so soon removed from him that called you (not in­to your selves, but) into the grace of Christ unto another Gospel: which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the Gospel of Christ. But though we (even Apostles) or an Angel from heaven (persons of most Angel-like carriage and appearance) preach any other Gospel unto you, (as the following Discourse shews that these Qua­kers do,) then that which we (the Apostles) have preached unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1. 6, 7, 8.

LONDON, Printed for John Allein at the signe of the Rising Sun in Pauls Church-yard, 1660.


ONce more we have herein presented thee, Courteous Reader, with a discovery of the People called Qua­kers, in which thou mayest see from their own written and printed sayings, by what manner of spirit they be led, and what manner of Doctrine they publish and strive to maintain; and indeed the naughtinesse of their way is made manifest, partly by their Principles and Doctrines broachedly them, and partly by the manner of their car­riage in their managing and maintaining them: Wee shall give thee here a brief account of both in a few Ob­servations.

1 For the Doctrines and Principles maintained by them thou mayest observe in their Queries sent us, (printed with our Answers to them at the close of our Answer to their Book against us) as hint [...]d, and in their book more clearly as­serted or implyed these following, viz.

I. That Christ hath no other body but his Church; no personal body: and so that that body of his flesh in which he suffered and bare our sins, and which rose again, is not a bo­dy, or is not in being, Book, pag. 7, 8, 9. answered by us in our Reply, pag. 25. to pa. 42. and Quest, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10 11.

II. That the blood of Jesus Christ, or his personal abasement & sufferings in the flesh to the shedding and pouring out his blood and soul to Death, sustained by him once in the end or last Ages of the World are not the foundation, or of the foundation of their faith, & so that their faith is not faith in Christs blood as so considered, nor is that precious blood or those suf­ferings [Page] of Christ that wherewith their conscience is purged, or the spiritual drink of the soul but some other thing, principle or spirit in men which they put the Name of the blood of Christ upon: See if this conceit or Doctrine in both parts of it, negative and affirmative, be not hinted in their Quest. 12, 13, 14. seeing the body of his flesh in which he suffered they deny to remain, and yet say his blood is in his flesh, what can they mean by his flesh, but something of his Church, which onely they grant to be his body, and so that his blood is no­thing but some seed, principle or sufferings in his Church; their pleading against his blood, or suffering as the foundation, or of the foundation of Faith, thou mayst see in their book p. 14, 15, 16, 17. answered by us here, p. 52, 53, 54, &c.

III. That the lower parts of the earth into which Christ descended, and the heavens in­to which he again ascended are no local places, but some conditions or conceits in men. Qu. 3, 4, 5, 6 [...]. Book p. 8, 9. answered by us, p. 26, 27, 33.

IV. That the same body that dies shall not rise again in the Resurrection, Book, p. 10, 11. Answered by us, p. 42▪ to 46. and Quest. 16, 17.

V. That the souls of the wicked shall not come out Hell at the great day of the Resur­rection and judgement to be further judged they imply, Quest. 18. and so that neither the souls nor the bodies of the wicked shall rise again to judgement.

VI. That that coming of Christ in which the dead in him shall be raised and be caught up into the Ayr together to meet him, and be ever with him, and in which he shall de­scend from heaven with a short, and the sound of the trumpet, &c. mentioned 1 Thess. 4. 15 16. is already long since past, For they say the Apostles and Believers of that Age in which the Apostle wrote remained to it, Book, p. [...]. Answered p. 32. Quest. 15. and so they agree with Hymeneus and Philetus, that said the Resurrection is already past, 2 Tim. 16. to 18.

VII. That the Christ we look for to come from heaven again they desire not the know­ledge of, Book▪ p. 10. Answered p. 41.

VIII. That they are sinless, or have no sin in them, they deny not, and that those that are believers in Christ and born of God are perfectly freed from sin, as to the being of it in them, Book, p. 1 to 6. and yet that the little children that John wrote to (who were al­so born of God and know the Father) might have sin in them, Ans. p. 9, 10. to p. 24.

IX. That all sin is guide, when as the scripture distinguishes guile from other sins, and other sins from guile, 1 Pet. 2. [...]. and sayes some have no guile in their spirits, who yet have sins (though forgiven and covered, yet there to be covered) Psalm. 32. 1. 2. Book p. 4. 5. Answ p. 17:18.

X. That Adam might have died the natural death if he had not sinned, and so that the bodily or natural death came not in by sin, Book p. 6, 7. Ans. p. 23.

XI. That Christ came not to redeem men from out of the natural or bodily death, B. p. 7. Ans. p. 25.

XII. That our faith that is not grounded in Christs appearing in us is to be turned up by the roots; and so by consequence that all the faith that is grounded in Christs appearing and suffering for us without us, and in his appearing in heaven for us (and so such faith as that of the Elect, mentioned Rom. 8. 33, 34, 35.) is by these mens Doctrines to be rooted up, Book p. 10. Ans. p. 41, 42.

XIII. That the Apostles and all that were led by the spirit of God, &c. witnessed the Redemption of the body▪ (spoken of Rom. 8. 23.) when they were upon the earth, and did not put it afar off (as they deridingly phrase the looking and waiting for it) till after, death, in which they say again in effect that the resurrection of the believers body is made in this life, Book p▪ 11, 12. Ans. p. 47, 48▪

[Page]XIV. That the knowledge of Christ after the spirit as he was before the world was, (when as he was not come in the flesh or promised as one to come) is the knowledge of him to Eternal Salvation, Book p. 6, 7, 8. Answ. p. 48, 49, 50.

XV. That the Scriptures are not a medium of faith, Book p. 18, Answ. p. 58. 59.

XVI. That the light wherewith Christ lighteth men is not both natural and spiritual light or good, Book, p. 20. It seems he is not by their Doctrine the Authour and procurer of all good to men both natural and spiritual, and so we are to thank him, and God by him for both, see our answer, p. 61.

XVII. That they that speak not according to the Law and Testimony, and whom we should not seek to for direction, though they have no morning light in them, yet have Christs evening or candle-light; and so that by the Prophet. Isaiahs counsel, men should not listen to them that have but Christs evening or candle-light, Isaiah 8▪ 20. and yet the Apostle Peter by these mens Doctrine commended the Believers for taking heed to the evening or candle-light of Christ that was not the morning light, 2 Pet. 1. 19, 20. and as if Christs candle-light would lead men to speak otherwise than according to his Law and Testimo­ny, and yet is to be heeded to by men, Answ. p. 62.

XVIII. They deny the continuance and usefulnesse of the outward Ordinances of Bap­tisme and Lords Supper, or eating Bread and Wine in remembrance of him, till the end of the World in the Church of Christ, in a manner deriding them, Quest. 19, 20, 21▪ 22.

XIX. They intimately deny justification by a righteousnesse imputed to us, contra­ry to Rom. 4. 5. 11. and maintain a justification by righteousnesse within, which indeed in them is a meer unrighteousnesse, as denying and evacuating the virtues of Christs suf­ferings in his own personal body and his sacrifice for us, Quest. 25.

XX. That to endeavour to detect & make manifest their delusions or the delusions of any others, and to preserve people from them is a being impatient under & raging against Gods judgements; or else that it is no judgement of God to have delusions and Deluders sent a­mongst us to exercise and trouble us, or that we ought not to contend against them, Book, p. 23. Answ. 68, 69.

XXI. That these Teachers whose hearers do sleight and neglect the truth preached by them and remain not withstanding it, slothful, formal, covetous, &c. are false prophets; by which conclusion they involve him who said he had laboured in vain, and spent his strength for nought, that would have gathered Jerusalems children often, but yet they were not gathered; even Christ himself, Isa. 49. 4, 5. Mat. 23. 37. Yea and all the Prophets and Apostles of Christ who had many such hearers, as if they also were false pro­phets, Book p. 28, 29. Answ. p, 7 [...], 74.

XXII. That Christ is a seed of God in men which in some wants Redemption, and is burthened by corruption, and desires to be free from the burthen of sin, and alwayes to do his Fathers will, and so hath not ceased from sin in them, nor can do in all things his Fa­thers will, but needs a power to reach to him where it is begotten, to set him free, redeem or raise him up, in which power he arises in them that believe in the light for their Redem­ption, Book, p. 21. Answ. 63, 64, 65.

XXIII. That Christ is first known as one without form or com [...]linesse, and is in some a seed that yet suffers, and in others reigns and is known to be Prince of peace; so that he both suffers and reigns at once in divers persons, Book, p. 21, 22. Answ. p. 63, 64, 65. Such be the Doctrines discovered in their writings to us, concerning the last two, because therein is a discovery of that Imagination of theirs which they call Christ, and which they [Page] preach as the true Christ, or as James Naylor in his Book called Love to the Lost, sayes is the seed of Abraham, which Christ takes after the flesh. We shall note some things here more particularly, as

1. That by Flesh and Seed of Abraham after the flesh, they mean not any natural Seed or Body of man, but a certain seed or principle in every mans mind whether he know it or no, which in some men is not fully able, but desirous to follow after God, and be free from sin, they say not to free him in whom it is from sin, but to be free it self from sin, and yet this seed with them is the Christ, the Word that was made flesh; the true light that is in every man that comes into the World, and that is manifested in men to take away their sins; yet it cannot be said (it seems) of it, that in it is no sin, but for it desires to be free from sin and follow God, but (it seems) doth not nor can yet in some men till raised by the power, and when so manifested in men, they are perfectly sinlesse.

2. When they say this Seed or Christ is known in some men as suffering and burthen­ed with corruption, and desiring to be free from sin, &c. is not that the death of their Christ? or do they not blaspheme the true Christ, who is raised and made a quickening spirit, while they represent him as one not able to do his Fathers will in some men, and as one that needs Redemption, and to be set free himself.

3. When they say this seed the power reaches to where it is begotten, and in the pow­er it arises, &c. is not that the Resurrection of Christ with them for mans Redemption and Justification; and so the believer in the light for redemption believes first in a dying Christ dying yet in him, unlesse the light he believes in be another Christ, or some thing besides Christ; or rather their candle-light, which is put out in the wicked, is all one with their Christ suffering, and making his grave with the wicked, and their Christ Re­deemed and rising in men is the light reviving as the morning light in them, and then the man is redeemed and raised sinlesse too; and so there is their and their Christs Resurrecti­on together.

4. And yet again, mind their strange expressing of this Redemption and Resurrection of their Christ; This Seed, say they, the Power reaches to where it is begotten, and in the Power it ariseth. What is this power that they say reaches to that Seed, is it Christ or not Christ? If it be not Christ, then it seems their Christ crucified or burthen­ed with corruption is not the power of God, but needs another power to Redeem him, that is not he; no, alas their Christ lies strugling under corruption, as weak it seems as the poor believer himself, that cryes out wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this Death. So that what Paul said of himself as carnal and sold under sin, is true of their Christ in some, he would rise and cannot, he wants power; he would do the will of the Father, but cannot it seems, till the power reach to him; and so he may say too as Paul said, To will is present with me, but how to perform what I would I find not. If the power be the Christ, then how was Christ there where he lies bur­thened with corruption in man, and making his grave with the wicked before he was be­gotten? for the power is not begotten in all that Christ is in as a suffering seed, and so he suffers before he be begotten, and he by whom all things were made is in some men, and yet his power not begotten; which when it reaches to the seed, it rises in it by degrees surely as men in whom he is, give way to him.

5. Yea, here we may see the reigning of their Christ too, and of his Saints with him, in that they say, in some he suffers, and in others he reigns, and is known to be Prince of Peace: Is Christ divided then? or doth some part of him in some suffer, and other part reign in others; it seems he hath neither done dying, nor been at any time [Page] without his Reigning, and his to Reign with him, so that here we have the Mystery of their Religion.

6. Nay, what is this seeds rising but the Redemption of the body with them; for as for the Redemption of any Natural body of man from the Natural death on them, or judgement on them after that death, they plainly deny it; onely they talk of a seed shall rise, and what is that but this seed that they say Christ takes after the flesh?

7. Note here also how this their imagined Christ differs from our Christ, the true Christ witnessed to and Preached in the Scriptures; for their Rock is not as our Rock, their Christ as our Christ, themselves being Judges, Deut. 32. 31. with their Book, pag 10▪ our Rock is God in Christ, and so our Lord Jesus Christ, between whom and their Christ consider these differences.

1. Our Christ is that Holy and Innocent man that was born of the Virgin Mary, and lived in his personal body upon the Earth in the dayes of Augustus and Tiberius Cesars amongst the Jews; And who in that body of his was crucified or nayled on a Tree, died and was buried, and rose again the third day, and appeared in the same body to his Di­sciples, after which he in that his body left the World, ascending up from the Earth into the highest Heavens, where he is Glorified with Gods own Self, the fulnesse of the God­head dwelling in him bodily, He being God over all blessed for ever; This is he whom these perverters deny and jears at as having the form and body of a Man, and set up another thing in his stead, that hath neither personal head, hands nor feet, flesh or bones proper to himself, but an imaginary seed within every man, desiring to follow after God, and be free from sin, which they call the Light, the Christ, the Power of God, &c.

2. Our Christ in a personal body of his own distinst from, and out of our bodies, bare our sins to and on the Tree or Crosse, and so in that body died for our sins, and in the same body rose for our justification, that we believing in him might be justified by his Blood, and accepted in his Righteousnesse, and from thence have sin die in us, and we dying to sin might live to Righteousnesse; These plead for a Christ, without any body of man distinct from others, or out of them, but a certain seed with an imaginary flesh and blood, dying and beating sin in every man, and rising where the Power reaches to it in men, having no other body but what is in some men dying, yea in every man in its time, and in some men rising but not in all.

3. Our Christ in his said body did once, and but once in the last Ages of the World, little more then, one thousand six hundred years since, suffer and die, and rise again and, can now therein die no more, death hath no more dominion over him, but he is alive for ever­more in that body Glorified in the Heavens, which these perverters deny; But their Christ is alwayes suffering, and so dying in some men and rising in others, and reigning in some, and so hath been alwayes dying and rising in m [...]n from the beginning of the World, and so will be to the end, their words plainly enough import as much.

4. Our Christ by that his death once suffered, and in his Resurrection in that his body, & that body once in sacrifice offered up to God, hath overcome Death and the Devil, slain the enmity and taken out of the way all that was contrary to us, redeemed us from the curse of the Law, obtained eternal Redemption for us, and received the immeasurable fulness of the Spirit in the man and for men, and is become Wisdom Righteousnesse, Sanctification, and Redemption, being by virtue of all his foresaid sufferings and sacrifice, the propitiation for the sins of the whole World of man kind, the Mediator of God and men, that all that believe in him may by Faith be reckoned after him▪ and receive of the virtues hereof, a first fruits of the Spirit, making their Spirits li [...]e for Righteousnesse sake, and giving [Page] them the hope of the fulness in Soul and Body at his coming again to be enjoyed by them for which they wait, of all which these Perverters make nothing, as James Naylor writ to a certain Gentleman by way of reproach; Thou lookest to be saved by a man that dyed 1600. years ago; this is that they scoff at, giving out in their words that the death they mean of, is not the death of a man in a Mortal body which was Natural and must have dyed, they say, though sin had never been; But the death they mean is the death of the Seed or Christ that is alwayes dying and rising, sometime in one and sometime in another, which death and resurrection they extol, and account the other but a shadow and figure of.

5. Our Christ being in his glorified Bodie in the Heavens, the fulnesse of the God­head dwelling in him bodily, by his spirit draws in many to believe in him of whom he in his Personal body is the Head and they the Members are one spiritual body or Corporati­on. But these Perverters denying that their Christ hath any Personal body, made but one Body in and of all, and that the Seed sure, for the Natural Bodies of themselves and others, they say must die and never rise again, and therefore sure they are in their ac­count no part of Christs Body that must live ever, and sure that Seed is no Personal Bo­dy but a conceited spirit that is within them with a conceited flesh and blood in them to; This is the fulnesse of God they say, whereof they are every one of them in this Seed the Members; such an Idol was scarce ever in any Generation of men set up be­fore.

6. Our Christ is by his Word and spirit, and the riches of his Grace in the hearts of his people by faith quickening and inlivening them, which these perverters deny and jeer at, and say, Their Christ in all the reality of his Body with his Flesh and Blood is wholly within them (for so some of them have said) even sensibly bearing their sins in them, though not willingly as Christ bare ours on the Tree, but desiring to be free, and so is rising in them and reigning in Glory; So as the Redemption and Resur­rection of the Body others wait for, these say they, have in this body within, a pleasing fancy.

7. Our Christ will come again personally in his own Glorious Body, and every eye shall see him, in which coming he will, not by degrees or one after another, but at once together in one moment in the twinkling of an eye change the surviving, and raise the dead bodies of all that sleep in Jesus, so as they shall be all mortal, and meet him in the air, and appear in Glory with him freed from all Hunger, Persecution, Sorrow and death for ever, and blessed in the enjoyment of him with whom they shall reign for evermore; and when he is set on his Throne, he will gather all Nations before him raising all men, not leaving out these Deceivers, but all shall appear before his Judgement Seat even those that rebel against him, and in this day deny him, then shall they acknow­ledge him Lord, and his People that have now confest him the beloved of the Lord, when themselves shall be judged by him and sent into the Lake of Fire, &c. all which coming of his and the Resurrection of the dead and judgement after death (the bodily death) is by those Perverters also altogether denyed, they owning no other coming of Christ then some of them enjoy now, nor other Resurrection then is now sometime of one and sometime of another, and yet they of them that enjoy the Resurrection of the body, they talk of sometime bunger, and feel pain and cry out of Persecution, and must die the bodily, yea and rise again to the second death too.

8. Our Christ hath by his spirit so fully discovered himself in the Testimony of the [Page] Gospel that is the written verity, that in and according to the plain import of the saying thereof he is to be known so far as we may know him till his coming again, and by and wit that the Holy Spirit doth witnesse of him to, and teach the hearts of the believers, and they from the same spirit, and according to the same Gospel do conside in him, confesse him and hold him sorth to others, and for that are opposed by these perverters; Of whose Christ and their Doctrine of him, though whatever is said of the true Christ or of his Church in the Scripture they apply to their false Christ, and to themselves, as if they meant no other Christ nor faith then the Scriptures speak of, perverting them to that end; Yet the scripture writing indeed speaketh not but to the condemnation, overthrow and con­fusion thereof: warning all believers not to hear or follow them, nor receive them to house, nor bid them God-speed; But hold them accursed, beware them and avoid them as Wolves, false Apostles, and Reprobate concerning the Faith. Such the Doctrine and Principles which these men call the truth, which indeed is errour and darknesse, let the Scriptures be compared.

2. For the manner of their managing and maintaining their doctrine, let these par­ticulars amongst divers others be noted.

1. They come in their own name or authority, boasting of themselves and witnessing to and of themselves: and so obtruding things upon men, not by and in the light and evi­dence of the spirit, in and according to the Scriptures, as the true Apostles use to do, but upon their own authority and the authority of their sayings, and witnessings which there­fore they say also are of equal authority with, &c. Better than the saying of the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures, as appeares by George Whiteheads answers to the Cam­bridge Queries. To this purpose is their saying in their Title Page, that what they have written and made manifest in their Book is, they say, by the Truth (they say not which is in Christ or in the Gospel of Christ, but) which is in George Whitehead, John Whitehead, George Fox the younger, to which three witnesses in their own names, We oppose the three in Heaven, the Father, the Son or Word, and the Holy Ghost, and the truth that is in and is witnessed by them, much of this their way of self­witnessing and obtruding things in their own name, word or authority, the Reader may see in their Book, p. 8. 13. 18. 20, 21, 22, 23. 26. In which they are such as the false Christs and the false Prophets, of whom our Lord said to the Jews, if another come in his own name, him ye will receive, John 5. 43. And like the Idol worshippers and preachers, of whom the Lord says by the Prophet Isaiah, that they were their own wit­nesses, Isa 44. 9. And though they say the Lord saith, yet they do therein as the false prophets affirming the Name of the Lord to their own words, dreames, fancies, or de­ceits, as in Jer. 23. 16. 25, 26, 27. Ezek. 13. 7. As we might also instance in some they have said of that they were Priests, and Hirelings, and took Tythes that were ne­ver exercised in such away, as a certain woman said of Thomas Moor junior, at Glentworth in Lincoln-shire, and George Fox said in Bury Goal, of one Disbrough brother in law to Joseph Hagger, being a trads-man in London, yet they pretended that they speak by the Revelation of the spirit of them in which their im­posture and deceit was made manifest.

2. When they do quote Scripture, they usually pervert and corrupt it, altering, leaving out something, or adding thereto corrupt and false glosses; we may instance some few particulars, in their book against us. As,

1. Alleadged 1 John 5: 10. He that believeth hath the witnesse in himself, b [...] ­ing [Page] out on the Son of God, without which it is not true, for the Devils believe yet have not the witnesse spoken of in 1 John 5. in themselves, Jam. 2. 19.

2. They alleadge 1 John 4. 17. as he is, so are we in this World, to prove that they are without sin here, as well or much as Christ is, though its evident that contradicts the Apostle himself, who says 1 John 1. 8. If we say we have no sin we deceive our selves; touching which quotation, because they make some specious use of it to deceive the simple; We shall note some things here further about it, for the help of the weak: let the Reader mind then that,

1. He saith not as he was besore the World was, so are we in this World, for so he was glorified with the Fathers own self, equal to God, and in his forme the same with God, by whom all things were made: So there was not nor ever was or will be any other man or Angel like him, and so as he was and is, John 1. 1, 2, 3. Col▪ 1. 15, 16. Phil. 2. 7.

2. He saith not, as he was when the Word was made flesh in Ʋnion of Person with the Son of God, Gods onely Son, his first begotten and first born, God-man in one Person, John 1. 14. 18. Mat. 1. 23. So is no man else.

3. He saith not, as he is now at Gods Right hand in his body glorified by virtue of that he did here on the Earth, in his personal sufferings, for so he is the Lord of all; Angels, Powers and Authorities being made subject to him, 1 Pet. 3. 22. alive and li­ving for evermore, and hath the Keys of Hell and Death, Rev. 1. 18. Yea, so he is the Christ, exalted a Prince and Saviour to give Repentance and Remission of sins, Acts 2. 36. and 5. 31, 32. The great High Priest and King, that hath all Power in Heaven and Earth given to him, Heb. 7. and 8. Mat. 28. 18. The fulnesse of the God-head dwelling in him bodily, Col 2. 9, 10. The Mediator of God and man, 1 Tim. 2. 5. The Way, the Truth, the Life, John 14. 6. The recoverer of Man-kind, the second Man, the last Adam who is made a quickening Spirit, Rom 5. 14. 18. Gal. 3. 13. 14. and 4. 4. 1 Cor. 15. 45 to 49. The Saviour of the World, and propitiation for the sins of the whole World, 1 John 2. 2. and 4. 14. The Authour of Faith, and of Salvation, Heb. 12. 2. and 5. 9. The caller of all, Isa. 45. 22. The Head and Husband of the Church, and special Advocate of believers, Ephes. 5. 26. and 1. 22. 23. 1 John 2. 1. So he is and was, so as there never was, is, or will be found ano­ther in these respects as he, to do that which and as he hath done, and to be by virtue there­of as and what he is.

4. He saith not as he is in himself in his own person (and for the work done by him, and excellency in him) in the estimate will, and love of God his Father, so and in the same manner and sence are we; Not so, for it hath pleased the Father that in him all fulnesse should dwell, and that in all things he should have the preheminence, Col. 1. 18, 19. And so likewise is he in the esteem of the true Church, 2 Cor. 4. 5. Col. 3. 11. So as no other is as he, much lesse upon the account of any thing done in and by them.

5. He saith not as he shall appear at his coming again, so are we in this World, no, that is denied by the Apostle, for in that respect we are dead, and our life hid with Christ in God, and such conformity to him is not here to be enjoyed, but waited for till his glo­rious appearing, 1 John 3. 2. Col. 3. 3, 4. none yet so as he is, Phil. 3. 12. and 20, 21.

6. He saith not simply as he is so are we; not so, for he is the mighty God, Ti [...]. 2. 13. God over all blessed for ever, Rom. 9. 5. God-man in one person, John 1. 14. [Page] Mat. 1. 23. He by whom the Worlds are upheld, Heb. 1. 3. And by him God will raise and judge all men, Rom. 2. 16. None therefore so as he in such respects.

7. Nor saith he, as he was in the World so are we, though in some respects that be true. He when here in weaknesse here on Earth was then Immanual, the onely begotten Son of God, the Saviour of the World; So no other, none so impowered to give forth the Gospel, and appoint new Ordinances to be used as he was, we may onely receive, de­clare, and use what he gave forth and appointed; Yet as he when on Earth preached that Gospel and suffered shame and reproach for so doing, and was humble, meek, lov­ing, patient and constant to the death in so doing; So it becomes us to do and be, that we may therein be like him, John 15. 1 [...]. 22. Ephes. 5. 1. 2. 1 Pet. 2. 22. And so in living by Faith, so as he; but this Text speaks in a more proper Language for in­couragement. And so,

8. He saith plainly (not of others but of themselves, the Apostles and those unfained believers that were one with them in the same Faith, as he is so are we in this World. He had before declared the foundation, and Gods love commended therein as the ground of confidence and love, vers. 9. 10, 11. like that in Rom. 5. 1. 10. And how by the abiding of this love in us, God dwells in us and his love is perfected in us, vers. 7, 8. 12, 13. And then affirming that they had seen and did Testifie that the Father sent the Son the Saviour of the World, vers. 1 [...]. and how they had known and believed the same com­mended through him, and how they that have believed and dwell in that love dwell in God, and God in them, vers. 15, 16. He adds, herein is love with us (or our love) made perfect, (he saith not so perfect as there is no fear in us, because there is none in love, but that) perfect love casteth out fear, &c. (doth dayly or continually cast it out as it riseth in us) that so we may have boldnesse in the day of Judgement; And giveth this as the reason, because as he is (which can here be no other then as he is in the publica­tion and demonstrations of him in the Gospel, approved, and received, or dispised and rejected) so are we (in the declaration and holding forth of this message approved or rejected) in this World, which is sutable to that foretold by our Saviour, Mat. 10. 40. Luke 10. 16.

Again, (as he) used comparatively, signifies not in every respect nor in the fulnesse of measure, as may be seen, Mat. 10. 16. Gal. [...]. 12. Rev. 16 15. And so here, Not as he by his omnipotent power upholding the Heavens and the Earth, and ruling amongst all for ever, making his counsel to take place, upholding his Church in the World, &c. Not as be is in his omniscience in the World, seeing all things, and be­holding the hearts, thoughts and wayes of all men, not as he in his Perfection of Holinesse and Righteousnesse as inherently found in us. He is yet about that work to bring his Church to that, that he may in his season present them so to himself, Ephes. 5. 26, 27. 1 Thes. 5. 23, 24. Acts 3▪ 19, 20, 21.) Because of his perfect Righteousnesse and Power, vengence belongs to him, and he may punish and cut off at his pleasure, (not so we, Rom. 12. 19.) So that such an assuring to be like him, as th [...]se imply in such per­fection of sinlessnesse, (applying it to themselves) is to aspire to such a likenesse to and equa­lity with God, as the Serpent tempted Eve to; And no marvel if such be high conceit­ed of themselves, and however sinful yet say they have no sin; And count themselves Lords, and disdain to have any over them, and judge, revile, and likely would destroy▪ if in their power at their pleasure, this principle leads to it; But it is manifest the sence and import of the word is according to the businesse the Apostle is treating of, and his [Page] scope and end therein; And that is as beforesaid, for no man hath seen God at any time, but he hath manifested himself in his love, and his love to us in the gift of his Son, and this declared in the Gospel, that being believed we might love him and one another; And such as have so received the Gospel, he makes his instruments accord­ing to the measure of his Grace received, to declare it to others, and they that in Faith and love so do, are in their measure in this respect, as he in this World, as Scripture al­so elsewhere sheweth, they being by his Grace framed to his mind, are set to pursue his designe. And so,

1. They are his Ministers of his Word and Grace put into their hearts, and so in his place and stead to bear forth his Name, and carry on his work and he by them dis­playes his love, and beseeches men and convinces, and brings in to himself, and so they are the Light of the World, and edisiers of their brethren in the World, 2 Cor. 5. 14. 21. and 6. 1. 2. Mat. 5. 14, 15, 16 Phil. 2. 15. 16. Thes. 5. 11. And so they are as he is in this World, though he be still above them; They Ministring the Epistle of Christ, and he by his Spirit therein writing it in their hearts, 2 Cor. 3. 2, and 3. 6.

2. As any of the World receive their Testimony, so they receive the Spirit and Christ therein, and loving him they love them for his sake, and being won out of the fellowship of the World they come into onenesse in love, fellowship, and approbation with Christ and them, and as Christ owneth and approveth and delights in them, their Faith, love, fellowship, &c. So do these for Christ his sake also, and so according to their measure they are as he in this World, Mat. 10. 40. 41, 42. Luke 10. 16. John 13. 20. 2 Thes. 1. 10. 2 Cor. 3. 2. 3. Phil. 4. 1.

3. As any of the World refuse and dispise them in and for their Testimony▪ born forth with Gracious Words and Deeds, they refuse and dispise Christ, and as they defame, hate, persecute them, so they defame, hate, and persecute Christ, and so as he is, so are we in this World, Luke 10. 16. Acts 9. 4▪ 7. John. 15. 18. And with the two former this last sence is especially here meant. Now knowing this, that as he is re­ceived, known, loved by any in the World so are we; And as he is unknown, dispi­sed, hated persecuted in his Doctrine, and judged by any of the World, so are we, 1 John 3. 1: This gives us boldnesse in the day of judgement, upholds and makes us fearlesse in such incus revilings, condemnings, judgings, and affords us strong consolation, that when he comes to Judge, he will justifie us that were condemned for his Truth, and condemn them that condemn us for it; Surely George and John Whiteheads and George Fox intended us no such consolation against all their revilings and judgings of the Truth and us, but any impartial Reader may see their miserable wrestings and abuse of this place, upon which we have been the larger, Reader, for thy instruction and helpfulnesse, it being a Scripture much made use of by them as countenancing their conceit of their sinles­nesse, and we being very brief to things in our following answer, in the rest we shall be briefer.

3. Quoting, 1 John 2. 1. in their p. 3. My little Children these things writ I to you that you sin not, and if any man sin, we have an Advocate; They stop their leaving out, and he is the Propitiation for our sins, which plainly imports that the Apostles and Believers he couples himself with, owned that they had sins when he so writ, in that he says not he was onely, but he is the propitiation for our sins what but fraudulency and shun­ing of the Light there was in their so quoting it?

4. Quoting Prov. 20. 9. fore quoted by us, they (p. 3.) leave out the last clause [Page] too, viz. Who can say, I am pure from my sins, because directly making against their wrong apprehension of their sinlessenesse.

5. Their nonsencical glosses put upon that Text, Eccles. 7. 20. and 1 Kings 8. 46 in their pages 3. and 4. Thou mayest see spoken to by us. p.

6. So also their wrong reading of Ephes. 5. 30. adding to it of their own heads, p. 9. thou mayest see spoken to, p.

7. Likewise, whereas in Phil. 3. 21. it is said, our conversation is in Heaven whence we look for a Saviour, they turn it about and say, there (not thence) they looked for the Saviour.

8. Their like abuse of Acts 17. 11, [...]2. thou hast it spoken too. p.

These amongst many other, may suffice to shew what abusers of the Scriptures they be at their pleasure, in their quotations of them and glosses upon them.

3. They maintain their false conceits by falacious or sencelesse reasoning, syllogizings and inferences, as at the dispute at Lin, George Whitehead to prove all sin to be guil, brought this falacy; All sin is a transgression of the Law, guile is a transgression of the Law, therefore guile is all sin, which any that understand the rules of Syllogismes know to be a Paralogisme, or false reasoning, such as the Apostle in the Greek Text of Col. 2. 4. Expresly faults and warns us of, and in their Book G. W. turning about, deny­ing and falsifying his own former Syllogisme, sets down a more vitious and corrupt Ar­gument then it, to beguile the simple, with being but his own and his brethrens three wayes, asserting the same thing in divers formes, or with very little alteration, and that without any Scripture proof for any of them, viz. Every transgression of the Law is guile or sin, and all guile includes all transgression of the Law, therefore every sin is guile; Like as if one should prove every Beast to be an Asse, thus. Every Beast is an Asse or a living Creature, and all Asses includes all Beasts; Therefore every Beast (Foxes and Wolves to) as an Asse, p. 5. Again in the same page, they prove all sin to be guile, thus. Any one sin makes a man guilty, and so he hath guile in him, a foolish inconse­quence, as if guile and guilt were one and the same thing, whereas George White­head being a Scholler knows the contrary, and therefore therein he wilfully playes the Jesuite or Sophester to delude the Ignorant with seeming like tearmes. So pag. 1. to prove the perfection of sinlessenesse in themselves they say, the perfection of sinlessenesse is in the witnesse of God, as if that and themselves were one and the same, and pag. 6. to prove that Adam might have died the natural death, though he had not sinned, they argue as thus. Because Christ who had no sin, not considering that Christ had our sins laid upon him, and for them he died, but Adam should have had no sin laid upon him, or imputed to him, had he not sinned himself; But such like reasonings are too many to number up in them.

4. They carry on their false designs and doctrines with lies and falshood most frequent­ly, as in saying often, that we accuse the Saints, and plead for sin, p. 2, 3, 4, 5. And in belying J. H. in saying that he turned G. Ws. words about his false Syllogisme above mentioned, when as all that were at the dispute, and heard and remembred his words, may remember they were word for word, as John Horn relates them; Yea, and in be­lying his own words, in saying they were such as they indeed were not. Again, in saying we might as well have accused the true Prophets and Apostles with being Preach­ers of lies, and deceivers, as the Quakers, and that the same Spirit in us that hath accused the Quakers with being deceivers (that is the Spirit of Truth) would have accused the true Prophets▪ Christ and his Apostles for being deceivers, page. 5. That we contradict our selves in many things where we have made it [Page] we have made it evident there is no contradiction; That we look for a Christ like our selves, but that he hath no Blood in his Body as we imagine, p. 10. That our expecting the Redemption of the Body to be waited for aster Death, is contrary to the Saints expec­tations. p. 11. and 12. In which words is both equivocation and falshood, that what the Scriptures say of Christ and his Body they own, in which they also either equivocate or say falsly, or both; they equivocate if by owning they mean as probably they do, they own it as true of themselves, (the Quakers) as if the things spoken of Christ and his Church are verified in and of them, and may be affirmed of them; Or if by owning they mean they believe and hold them true concerning Jesus of Nazareth, and them that believe on him to be saved through the virtue of his sufferings, Sacrifice and Medi­ation, then they say falsly. Yea, whether this or the former be their meaning, they are false therein, as our reply makes manifest to the impartial Reader; But who can num­ber up their lies and falshoods in falsifying our sayings, and otherwise which the follow­ing Reply will further evidence. He that will procure and search and compare what Christopher Wade of Water-beach hath written against them, with their writings against him, may see a whole dozen of notorious lies of George Foxes, clearly proved against him, to which G. W. in his answer gives the go by most egregiously; and in none of them disproves him.

5. They misrelate and give the go-by to many of our charges and sayings, as for in­stance; We quoted Jam. 3. 2. to prove all believers here to have sin, or sometime to offend, to this they say nothing, onely quote the place and give it the go-by, telling us onely that James exhorted men to let patience have its perfect work, &c. Which is nothing to the purpose, p. 3. So what we said of the Nature of man, as it is in Christ, discharged of sin, Law and Death, in his Resurrection, p. 10. Of our for­mer Book, that they represent it as if we had said it of the Nature and being of man, as in us to be discharged in our Resurrection, p. 11. And whereas we charged them with denying the Humanity of Christ, as to its being now in him, they give it the go-by, answering onely that they never denied the Man Christ, for his flesh is their food, p. 14. Whereas they had before denied him to have any other Body then his Church, p. 8. And to our saying, that Christ is not really and personally in the believer, as in Heaven, but by Faith, they let go the words personally and as in Heaven, in their answer, and traduce us as denying any real being of him by Faith in the believer, p. 14. More such like dealings thou mayst find in p. 15. and 18. and divers others.

6. They carry their designes by reproaches, Nick-names, and abusive expressions, in which also much hatred, malice, and spite against us is made evident to be in them, and so that they are far from sinlessenesse; to this purpose it is that in their Title page and Post-script they Nick-name us, Calling us,

1. Teachers of the People called Moorians, or Manifestarians, and called by some Free-willers, and Independants, which what can it proceed from, but their hatred of us, and indignation against us, Seeing,

1. The Names we own not, nor are the People we Teach so called, as Moorians, that we know of, T. M▪ sen. (it seems) for affirming not of himself as his own, but from ▪the Testimony of Christ and his Spirit recorded in the Scriptures, that Je­sus Christ is the Saviour of the World, and gave himself a ransom for all men, and is by virtue thereof the Mediator of God and men, the propitiation for the sins of the whole World, and extends to men, meanes leading them to Repentance, and is ready to receive such as in the means are prevailed with to believe, and this a good ground and [Page] motive to Repentance, Faith, Love, &c. Was by some that opposed, those truths stan­dered and called Papists or Arminian, and some of the same mind with him in those truths, were by means of a certain Manciple in one of the Colledges that turned Almanack-maker, and reproachfully devising that Name called Moorians, by some drunkards, profane and cavilling persons, but never owned by him nor by any of his friends, much less by us or the people we teach, nor do we know of any civil people or others, these revilers excepted, that say or write of us, or of any people that they are the people called Moorians, as these men call themselves in divers of their writings the Quakers, & the people called Quakers, which makes it lawful for us also without reproach to give them that name, by way of distinction in our speaking or writing of them, as the names Herodians, Sadduces, and Pharisees are given in the Scripture to, and were owned by those peoples so called without reproach to them;) And the rather because the Name (Quakers) fathers their Doctrine upon no man as the name Moorian doth, nor charges it with any particular evil Opinion, as the other name Manifestarian and Free-Willers import, though had they been thereby wronged and reproached, yet the Spirit of Truth would have led them not to return reviling for reviling, reproach for reproach, and to joyn hands with drunkards and others; so that herein they are convicted to be sinners, being guilty of reviling: As also in that,

2. They add or Manifestarians, as if Moorian and Manifestarian were the same with them; this is another of their spiteful reproaches against the same people, in which they joyn with such as fearing the eclipsing of their own honour, are offended that we should own no Father but God, nor Doctor but Christ by his Spirit, and by his Servants, so Ministering his Epistle, as that he himself is the writer of it, so as each may have the certainty of his believing from Gods own Manifestation of it; For because T. M. and others do hold that mens coming into Ʋnion with Christ, and knowledge of pecu­liar interest in him, and his priviledges is by the Holy Spirit, in his Testimony of Christ inlightning their minds, and discovering the peace made by his blood, and life obtained by him; And commending the love of God therethrough, and what Christ hath done and is ready to do for sinners, so as he thereby inableth them to discern, and moveth them to believe in him; And so such as through this Grace believe are right believers, others not so: And that this testified and manifested by Christ his own Spirit in the Word of Grace, in which Christ manifesteth himself and his things, as in John 14. 21. and 16. 14. 15. Therefore some in times past that were strangers to this Grace, and did seek life in a Pharisaical Righteousnesse, and by their strifes after such Righteousnesse to evidence and manifest to themselves and others, not otherwise knowing that they were in a Gracious state and had unfeigned Faith; And others that pretend Christ in men, and the true Light in them, but they know it not, and that their Ministration unto men is not to bring out of darknesse into Light, but to manifest to them the Light and Christ that were before in them, (to whom therefore that name of Manifestarians might more properly be given) I say some such Nick-named them, and reproached them with the Name of Manifesta­rians, and amongst them Mr. Edwards in his Gangraena, was pleased to vent his passion in that reproachful tearm, since whose writing we have scarce ever met with it from any other, till these three brethren in evil have therewith reproached the people taught by us; yea, and not content with that, they add in a Parenthesis,

3. And called by some Free-Willers and Independants, in which they seem to except themselves from being of the some that so calls us, yet will call in any some to their [Page] help to defame us rather then not to vent all their gall against us, which what shews it but a great deal of envy, fury and malice that could not be kept within narrower bounds? possibly there be some that are Episcopal, and some Parochical, and some Congregational Teachers; either of those that call themselves the Baptized party, or of others that hold that man hath Free will by nature to spiritual good, (though we think scarce any will expresse themselves in such terms, much lesse are all of any of those sorts chargeable therewith, or may Independents and Free willers be used as conversible terms) but as for us we disown it, and our writings in publick testifie against it, it is rather chargeable upon those men, and all of them that hold every man hath the true light, the good Seed, and Christ in him from his birth, and so consists of light and darknesse, flesh and spirit, &c. And as for In­dependents, we hold none properly so but God, though in some sence they may be branded with holding themselves to be such as assume to themselves equality with God, or think and hold that they have all their life, strength and sufficiency from within themselves, so as they need not to be taught or helped by any other, nor ackn [...]wledge any God or Christ without themselves as needful to be looked to or be depended upon for help and strength, &c. (such as with the younger Son in the parable, will have all in their own hand to live upon▪ and not to depend upon his Father without and above him, Luc. 15.) and that submit not themselves to any Powers or Magistrates set over them; but those things we disclame, having our de­pendance upon God in Christ, and in his way taking help of one another, submitting to those over us in the Word of the Lord, and to what Magistrates the Lord sets over us for his sake; and therefore neither Free willers nor Independents, as these would have us re­proached, though joyning hands therein with any some to cast an odium upon us. But yet besides all these,

2. In the same Title page they spit their rancor against J. Horn in a reproachful way cal­ling him J. Horn a Priest in Lin and Priest Horn (as in p. 15, they do the like to another, whom they reproachfully call Priest Higginson) in which they do not say as in the other re­proaches, called Priest, or whom some call Priest, but as being themselves in their malice and bitternesse, the Authour of that reproach they themselves so call him, which appears clearly to be done by way of bitter derision and reproach. For the word Priest is either used

1. In a good sence, as when the believers are called by the Apostle a Spiritual Priest­hood, 1 Pet. 2. 5. and he hath made us to God Kings and Priests, Rev. 1. 6. and 5. 10. in which sence John Horn disownes not the name, though not as he is John Horn but as a believer, it way be given him; but thats a name of honour, which their manner of expression argues they intend not to John Horn or to the other, nor are they such Priests which they call John Horns Brethren against whom he bears witnesse. Or

2. In a bad sence, in which it must needs be a reproach and apparently uttered with some venome or spight as well as falshood on their parts, for so they must either mean that John Horn is

1. A Priest of the Order of Aaron, a Levitical Priest; and then they say evidently false, for their Office was to offer bodily, bloudy and outward sacrifices for sin, and to burn incense, and they were distinguished from the Levites whose office was to Teach but not to of­fer sacrifice and burn incense, and those Priests were types of Christ, and since he hath come and offered up the acceptable sacrifice of his own body, we have no more such Priests.

If they Reply that he may be called such a Priest because he receives Tithes, We Answer, That follows not if he did so; for all were not, nor are Priests that took or take Tithes; the Levites took Tithes who were no Priests, and many Gentlemen and others in our Nation take [Page] Tythes, whom yet these men do not therefore call Priests, and therefore that can be no good reason for such a Name given him. Or they mean,

2. A Priest in the Roman sence, to make the body of Christ under visible formes and accidents (as these men called Quakers do in a manner in their im­maginations invisibly) and to offer up a propitiatory sacrifice for the quick and for the dead; if so they know themselves to be lyars therein to; For they know that none such are allowed by the profest Church in England called Protestants, for many years. Or,

3. A Heathen Priest appointed to offer bodily and bloody sacrifices to some Idol or false God, if they use it in such a sence, they then not onely reproach and lie against John Horn, and the other, but also intimately blaspheme against God and Jesus Christ the Lord, as if he was but an Heathen Idol or false God, for to none other doth John Horn perform any Act of Divine Worship; Its probable they mean it in this sence, for so one of their society at Whithesee called one, that reads the Scripture in the Congregation, Priest, and when intreated to forbear, be­because the Scriptures read are the Words of God, and discover Christ the Lord, and prayers were directed to God in his Name, and the Gospel by one also was then Preached, and Christ is the true Lord and not Baal, he grew more fierce at that, and called, Mattan, Mattan, Mattan, meaning Mattan the Priest of Baal, 2 Kings 11. 18. By which thou mayest see, Reader, what reproachers they be of Christ, and the Christian Religion; in any of these bad sences if they use this tearm Priest of J. H. they are not onely revilers but notorions lyars. Or,

4. If they use it as prophane men in contempt of the Ministers, that know not else what sence the word Priest hath, save onely they judge it reproachful, then have they at best joyned therein with the false prophane scoffers, Ishmaelites and evil men; And so it appeares however that they were not led by the Spirit of Truth which leads none to be revilers, so that had they called their writing their own witnesse, and not the witnesser of the truth in them (which indeed is not to them, 1 John 1. 8. 10.) they had done yet lesse evilly then they have in put­ting their falshoods and reproaches upon the Truth.

3. But besides these, their Book is full of reproaches elsewhere, as that we accuse the Saints and brethren, pag. 3. Are in confusion and are wise men of Babylon, pag. 5. and 7. Rail against the Innocent, pag. 5. plead for sin, pag 6. Say that we, like fools whom the Apostles reproved, would not be satisfi­ed with their Answer, pag 10. That the Body of Christ which is Spiritual is not discerned by us whose minds are out of his spirit, pag. 8. that we esta­blish a blinde and dead Faith, pag. 15. Are blind guides, pag. 16. 18. that we know not naturally, pag. 13. That they might have received as good an answer from School Boys, pag. 16. Call us dreamers, and this (say they) [Page] is a dreame, and one of John Horns divinations, pag. 17. Call us Hypo­crites, and power out a great deal of abusive and reproachful Language against us, for owning our selves as part of the Nation that have neglected Christ and long abused the Truth, pag. 22, 23. &c. Yea, their latter part is full of abu­sive reproaches, and revilings, (as well as their inward parts full of deceit and naughtinesse) not like the good Apostles that brought not railing accusations, though against the Deail, but like the Apostles and false Teachers, whose mouths are full of cursing and bitternesse.

7. To name no more, They carry on their own work by proud boastings and speaking high swelling words of vanity vaunting of themselves, and in that also walk in the steps of the false Apostles, and false Teachers, who were proud boasters, Fierce, Heady, High-minded, dispisers of them that are good, &c. And like the Old Pharisees that justified and lifted up them­selves as Righteous and dispised others, Luke 18. 10, 11, 12. 2 Cor. 5. 12. and 11, 12, 13, 14. 18. 2 Tim. 3. 2, 3. 2 Pet. 2. 1. 10, 11, 12. 18, 19. Judges. 13.

What boasters of themselves they be, may appear by those passages and the like; As for the Quakers dying, because of which they would accuse them with being sinners; here their darknesse (speaking of us) appeares, as if the Quakers might not be thought to be sinners. Again, we (say they of themselves) shall be a heavier judgement unto you, for we are a burthen­som [...] stone to all the ungodly, and the more ye strive against us, the greater will be your torment. Cease striving against the Truth of God and us his People, for the more ye strive against us, and the Truth we live in and are witnesses of, which Truth is Christ, who is also in us, &c. And a little after, the Mighty Powerful presence of the Lord doth accompany us, whereby we reach the faithfull witnesse of God in the People, which answereth to the Truth of God declared by us, pag. 23. (The contrary to which notwithstanding these great swelling words appeared in George Whitehead in his discourse with J. H. at Lin, since the foresaid vapour, he being mightily baffleled, as the Audience then present can witnesse.)

So they boast themselves of their Teaching freely, and not being greedy of filthy Lucre, but doing what they do out of a willing mind, &c. This (say they) is owned and practised by us the servants of the Lord called Quakers, &c. Pag. 28. And so did the false Apostles, it seems by what the Apostle writes of them, 2 Cor. 11. 12. They use to boast of their free Preach­ing, of their corrupt Doctrine too, though it cost them that receive it too dear, how cheap and free so ever it appeared; Yea the whole lat­ter part of their Book is little but reproaches of us, and boasting of them­selves.

[Page]Such their Doctrines, and such the way of their managing them, judge Reader of them both impartially, and of the further discovery of them in the ensuing reply, From which we shall no longer detain thee; Read seriously, and pray heartily to God for manifesting his Truth to thee, and guiding thee into it, and keeping thee from errours, to him committing thee, we rest,

Thy helpers in the Faith and Truth of Christ. JOHN HORN. Sen. & Juni. THOMAS MOORE.

A FULLER DISCOVERY Of the Dangerous Principles and Lying spirit of the PEOPLE Called Quakers, Made manifest in George Whitehead, John Whitehead, and George Fox the Younger, in their Book against John Horne, and Tho. Moore of Lin.

HOw grossely Ignorant, miserably Erroneous, and Impu­dently wicked the Quakers be, all may perceive, that are of ability to judge and discern indifferently, between us and them, in what hath bin published by either of us, yet for the sakes of those that are not able to discern, by a bare reading of what they have writ, or will not be at the paines to compare us impartially. We have herein further noted their Ignorance▪ Errour, Confu­sion, Hypocrisie, and Deceit, to their hands, in which they that will but compare us, may see our integrity in our dealing with them. However, we shall desire to Approve our selves to God therein, and make manifest their deceits and falshood, so as all that will may discern them.

1. They lay down ten Principles in their Epistle to the Reader, as ours in which they shew their ignorance and deceit; they be thus:

T. Moor (say they) affirmed, That sin is a natural heritage in the beleevers while they be here: To which T. Moor saith.

[Page 2] Ans. This is falsly expressed, his sayings were, That sin is in the beleever as a na­tural heritage from Adam, while he is in this mortal body. And in noting this as er­roneous, they intimately deny the natural uncleanness of man by sin entring into the world by one mans sin, and so that all have sinned in him, and are fallen short of the glory of God, in and unto which they were created: Or else with the Papists imagine that its taken away by Baptism or Regeneration, so as no more to be in men here: But note, that T. M. says its in them as a natural heritage, from the first natural root, fallen Adam, in which is implied a distinction between what is the beleevers by na­ture, as a son of the first Adam, a man; and what is his by grace, as in Christ the second Adam; and the Apostle tells us, That by one man sin entred into the world, and death by sin, and that it abides in the beleever, after beleeving is plain, in that Paul says, sin dwelt in him, even then when he says, it was not he that did sin, but sin in him, Rom. 7. 17, 20. For I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing; there his natural heritage: In which also he implies, that in his Spirit was that that is good dwelling, as also he after says, vers. 22. and that sin abides not in the belee­ver till death, we find no Scripture saith, but the contrary, That no man living shall be justified in the sight of God if he enter into judgement with him, Psal. 143. 2. If no man living, but by Gods not entring into judgment with him, then no man living here is without sin, for if there were, though God did enter into judgement with him, he should be justified, for God certainly cannot in judgment, or will not con­demn him in whom is no sin; so that their ignorance and error herein appears, in ac­cusing T. M. of Error herein.

2. T. M. (say they) affirmed, that their nature is restored in Christ (speaking of their own nature) and that their nature is a filthy nature, and Christ took upon him their nature.

Ans. This also is falsly expressed and perverted, for his sayings were to this effect: That the nature or kind of man is perfectly redeemed and restored in one for all, even in Christ the second Adam, while yet sin is in, and death upon the Individuals, or particular persons of men, for whom such Redemption is obtained in and by Je­sus Christ: Yea, even the beleevers body is yet vile, while not changed by death, and they all waiting for the redemption of the body; but here they confound things together and deal deceitfully, they might as well have taxed the Apostle of confusion, for saying, men by nature do the things contained in the Law, Rom. 2. 14. and yet by nature are children of wrath, Eph. 2. 3. The word Nature signifies diversly, when we say our nature is restored in Christ, we speak of the nature or kind of man as it is distinguished from the nature or kind of Angels and other creatures, which whole nature by reason of sin committed by it in Adam was fallen under wrath and curse; but being assumed by Christ (who was made flesh, and man, and not in the nature or kind of Angels) he hath redeemed it (even mans nature or being, which is ours too inasmuch as we are men) and restored it to favour and fellowship with God in him­self, and yet we say our nature, kind, or being, as in us, not in Christ (for the same com­mon nature, kind, or being of man, is in every man, though in divers persons diversly) is corrupt and filthy in it self by reason of sin in it, Isai. 64. 6. and death upon us, fur­ther then purified and purged by him, yet Christ took upon him our nature (as be­fore) not as it is filthy in us by sin in it, but as it was under bondage to death and ourse without filth in him, he being sanctified in his conception, so as to be the Holy One even in his Birth, (Luke 1. 35.) whereas others are conceived in sin, and shapen in ini­quity, [Page 3] (Psal. 51. 5.) so that there is neither error nor confusion in what is said by T. M. hereabout, but they have mis-related his sayings, and therefore tax them because they agree not with their Errors concerning mans natural sinfulness called Original sin, and the humanity of Christ denied by them.

3. John Horn (they say) holds, that they that had no guile in them, had sin in them, that every sin is not guile.

Answ. Tis well they dared not to put in David with him, as holding the same er­ror, for he says that man is blessed whose sins are covered, and to whom the Lord will not impute sin, and in whose spirit there is no guile; so then it seems some men in whose spirit is no guile have sins in them, though covered, and not imputed to them, there needs no cover for what is not, yet John Horn did not say that every one that had no guile in him had sin in him, for he excepts Jesus Christ who neither did sin, nor had guile in him, not that Principle then; but the contradiction of it is the Error.

4. T. M. (say they affirmed) That the blood of Christ shed is not in his person in heaven, but the vertue of it: To which T. M. saith:

Ans. That herein also they have altered and falsified his sayings, which in Answer to their Question where the blood of Christ is, was to this effect: That the materi­al blood was shed, and the vertue or preciousness thereof; or of his bloodshedding is now with the Father in the person of Christ in Heaven, forasmuch as by means, and for the worth thereof, he is raised from the dead, and entred into heaven it self, there to appear in the presence of God for us, having by it obtained life from the dead, even eternal life, and redemption for us. Mind also Reader that they say, p. 15. that they blame us not, nor did blame us for not asserting that the bloodshed is in the body of Christ: Why then note they this as a dangerous principle had T. M. so said.

5. T. M. (say they affirmed) That the blood of Christ shed is the foundation of their faith, but where it is they answered not, nor could they tell.

Ans. The forementioned Answer to their Question, was first often given and ur­ged, else what meant their reply to it to this effect: That the vertue of a thing cannot be separated from the thing it self, that it may be where the thing it self is not in a present, reall, sensible existence, or being; the contrary to which was then proved, as is shewed in the Book they pretend to answer: And further T. M. his Assertion was, That as the blood of Christ is in heaven with the Father in the sense above ex­pressed, so its the ground and foundation of our Faith, it being that by means of which he is so, and so we still say that the blood or sufferings of Christ, and he through and by means thereof being raised from the dead, and glorified in the same body in which he bare our sins (without which his sufferings could have done us no good) is the foundation of our faith; it seems it is not of theirs, and so they have not faith in his blood as the Apostles preached, (Rom. 3. 25.) their faith is founded in something else, and so they are men of dangerous Principles, beware of them.

6. T. M. They further say affirmed, That the life of Christ is not in the blood of Christ (whence they infer that) the Foundation of our faith hath not the life of Christ in it.

Ans. This also is a deceitful abuse and falsifying of his words which were in an­swer to their assertion, That the blood of Christ is nothing else but the life of Christ, the Spirit or power of God, bringing those Scriptures for proof, that speaking [Page 4] not so much as of man in his mortal state, but of other mortal creatures, say the blood is the life, and the life of the flesh is in the blood, Gen. 9. 4. Lev. 17. 11. In an­swer to which T. M. said, that the life of Christs personal body (which body they deny) is not in or by the supply of material blood, as the life of mortal creatures, yet he said that the eternal life and redemption in Christ for us is the fruit of his blood, being obtained by it: So that their conclusion hath not the least colour from his saying, but is contradicted by it, for the material blood that was shed as to its present locallity or place of being, as to its matter is not the foundation of our faith in whole or in part; but his bloodshed or sufferings to the pouring out his soul to death for our sins, and he by vertue thereof, as is before said.

7. T. M. affirmed (say they again) that the light wherewith Christ lighteth every man is both natural and spiritual.

Ans. That Christ is the true light that lighteth every man coming into the world, and that the light which he giveth or wherewith he lighteth them, is all that is truly called light and good, whether natural or spiritual, we did and do assert as truth; their denial of which implies an evil Principle held by them, Viz. That they deprive Christ of the glory of being the Author and giver either of the natural light or good, or of the spiritual.

8. T. M. say they, said, That the person of Christ (namely of flesh and bones) is a quickning spirit, and dwells in the beleevers by faith, and to prove it he said that the Corinthians dwelt in the heart of Paul.

Ans. There again they falsifie and pervert his sayings, which were that the person of Christ that had and hath flesh and bones (a person of flesh and bones we call him not; thats the term they put upon him by way of derision and reproach) even Jesus Christ, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, is declared to be the Son of God with power, by the resurrection from the dead, even in the same body in which he bare our sins on the tree, and he the second man, the last Adam is made a quickning spirit; which was answered against their seeking privily to insinuate to the people, that that body of his flesh was abolished or annihilated, so that now he hath not that bo­dy, or possesses not his glory therein, to shew the vanity and wickedness of their in­deavours, wherein it was urged, that the manhood or body of his flesh is not an­nihilated by his becomming a quickning Spirit, it being the man Christ Jesus the last Adam, thats made a quickning Spirit; yea, its because this man continues for ever in the name & glory of the Father for us, that he hath an unchangeable Priesthood, and is able to save to the utmost them that come to God by him; God having given to the Son of man to have life in himself even as the Son hath life in himself. As to the other part of the charge, T. M. his saying was, that its the man Christ Jesus as thus considered as a distinct person, personally or bodily distant from them (so as they are absent from him while they are at home in the mortal body) that is and dwels in the beleevers heart by faith. To their sensual scoffing at which, as not being able to comprehend by their sensual imagination how such a thing might be, such matters of faith being too high for them (as even the least things in the wisedome of God are too high for a fool that seeks to be wise in himself) we brought that of the Corinths and the Philippians being in the Apostles hearts by love, 2 Cor. 7. 3. Philip. 1. 7. not to prove that Christ dwells in the beleevers hearts by faith, thats fully and plainly the assertion of the Scripture, and needs no other proof, Eph. 3▪ 17. 2 Cor. 5. 7. But for illustration and discovery [Page 5] of the thing to the weakest of them whom they indeavoured to subvert, to shew them how one might dwell in the heart of another, and yet be personally di­stinct, and as to bodily presence distant also, 1 Thes. 2. 17.

But mind Reader, that these men do flatly oppose the dwelling of the man Christ as a quickning spirit in the hearts of the beleevers by Faith, which had they not been blinded with Antichristian Babilonish confusion, they would not have done plain­ly therein without covert contradicting the Spirit in the Apostle, that with so great earnestness prayed for the Ephesians, That Christ might dwell in their hearts by faith; but its manifest that these men know not what faith is, but take it for a beleeving something of God or Christ, from a knowing or experimenting it in themselves as the Devils believe, James 2. 19. Which yet is not faith or having faith, and their after abuse of, and clipping, 1 John 5. 10. in their p. 1. Gives occasion to think they take it so; or for sense or sight as many of their words import, but did they know that believing is the receiving a thing from a report, and that every believing is not faith in Scripture account, Prov. 14, 15▪ 2 Thes. 2. 11. But the hearty believing of that report in which the true and saving Object of faith, is set forth and brought nigh, Isa. 53. 1. John 7. 37, 38. Rom. 10. 8, 9, 10. Whence believing receives the denomination of faith, they would not thus have said and writ, for those that are willing to understand this business; we shall here take liberty to open what the Object of faith is which is often called faith though of many not believed, ‘and what that believing is which closing with that Object of faith is therefore called faith and not else.’

1. The Object of faith is the same that was preached by the Apostles for the obe­dience of faith, or to the faith, Gal. 1. 23. Rom. 1, 3, 4, 5. and 16. 25, 26. The most holy faith in believing to be built up in Jude 20 The precious faith of Gods elect. Tit. 1, 1▪ 2 Pet. 1, 2. Which object though one yet is three ways considerable.

1. ‘In respect of the most inmost and absolute Object the further and full stay of the soul, and that is God Almighty, the divine essence of God in Christ as evidenced by the holy Ghost in his infinite power, love, mercy, truth, &c. And so God is called the trust of his people. Psal. 40. 4▪ and 17▪ 3, 5.

2. ‘The most inmost and absolute medium which the believer discerns, comes to, and fastens on God; and that is Jesus Christ the son of God become man the Saviour of the world, &c. Rom. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. John 4. 42. 1 John 4. 14. And this as he is set forth in Scripture, John 7. 37, 38. Rom. 16. 26. Both in respect of what he hath done in his in­carnation, death, resurrection, sacrifice by which he made peace, obtained redemption, compleated righteousness and received spirit in the man and for men; and what by vertue of all this he is doing in his mediation between God & man and appearing in the heavens before God; interceeding for transgressors, and advocating and mediateing in speciall manner for believers; affording and continuing means and sending forth spirit to the rebellious, that the Lord God might dwell amongst them, and to believers to lead them into all truth, and what by reason and vertue of all said he is, even the propitiation for sins; wisdom, righteousness, holiness, and redemption, the Saviour of sinners, the head of believers, the fountain of life; the Lord and Judge of all. And what he hath assured in his [...] confirmed by his blood, that he will do in his visible and glorious [...] the dead; and causing all his peculiar to appear in glory with him▪ and bring [...] before his judgements seate, to ac­knowledge him and receive [...] 1 Tim. 2 4, 5, 6. Tit. 1. 1. 2, 3. and 2. 11. [Page 6] -14▪ and 3▪-4. 7. And thus is Jesus Christ both the Object of faith, and living and enlivening medium by which any comes to God, and believe in God, Heb. 7. 25. 1 Pet. 1. 21.

3 The instrumentall and outward Object or medium through which God in Christ and his well pleasedness in him, and the things above mentioned are declared; and according to which he is to be beheld, believed, and trusted, in which is the faith the Apostles preached and wrote to be obeyed in believing, and this is the word and Gospel of God and Christ, as testified and recorded by the spiration and inspiration of the Holy Ghost in the holy Scriptures, John 5. 39. and because so reported it is called his name, Psal 138. 2. and believing him is in believing his Gospel, Mark 1. 15. Joh. 2. 22. and 5. 47. and begins in glorifying his word, Acts 13. 38. and so right believing on him is believing on him, as the Scripture hath said, John 7. 37. and according to his word, and so trusting him in his word, Pal. 56. 3, 4. 10, 11. and so to usward; this is the first and outward Object and medium, nigh to us discovering God and Christ, that we may trust rightly in him, the next which through this is come to, the inmost living mediate Object discovered in that word, and through that word believed in is Jesus Christ as aforesaid, and so through Christ the last and most in­most and absolute Object is God in Christ, 1 Tim. 4 10. Rom. 4. 24. and so the Object of faith is one, that is, God in Christ as discovered by his Spirit in the Gospel, and this is the faith of which these opposers discover themselves by their own words to be void and of no judgement, as after also may more appear.

2. As for that believing which closeth with this Object of faith, and is therefore called faith, it is in holy Scripture shewen to have these three things in it, together in one.

1. ‘A right discerning judgement and perswasion of God in Christ, according to the discovery of himself in this word and testimony, and begotten by this word and testimony, Joh. 5. 39. 44. 47. and 7. 37. 2 Thes. 1. 10. Rev. 19. 10▪ Heb. 11. 13.

2. ‘From and with this an hearty imbracement of this discerned, and from thence an unfeined believing and trusting in God, for all the grace and glory in Christ pro­mised, Heb. 11. 13. Rom. 4. 18.-25. and 5. 8, 9, 10. 2 Tim. 4. 18.

3. ‘Thirdly, a yielding up the heart and powers to be saved and framed in affe­ctions, choise, and endeavours of service, by the teachings, allurements and operation of this grace believed, Isa. 45. 22. 2 Cor. 5. 20. Cant. 1. 3, 4. and 2. 4, 5, 6. Phil. 3. 3▪ 7, 8, 9. 1 Pet. 1. 5, 6. 8. Rom. 6. 17. Tit. 2. 11.-14. Heb. 11. 13. And in these three meeting in one is that believing, that closing with, and receiving this Object of faith, that is rightly called faith, which had these opposers known, they would not have avouched it an errour to say, that Jesus Christ the Lord from Heaven the quickning Spirit dwelleth in believers by faith, for by faith (the Object discovered and believing, or faith in the heart begot there) they receive his word or testimony into their hearts, Jam. 1. 18. 2 Cor. 3. 3. and where this word abideth in the heart there and so is Christ, John 15. 4. 7. 1 John 2, 24. and 5. 10. and 2. 9. And here through the Holy Ghost discovering Christ and the things of Christ, the vertues of his death, resurrection, fulness, sacrifice, and by his divine light, breathing, and power glorifying him to their hearts, (John 15. 26, 27. and 16. 13, 14, 15. 1 Pet. 1. 20. Rom. 4. 25.) draweth them more on Christ, 1 Pet. 2. 5. From whom they receive and believing have in them remission of sins, Acts 10. 43. Col. 2. 13. Justification, and peace with God in Christ, access to God in [Page 7] that grace, and hope of glory, Rom. 5▪ 1, 2. 8, 9, 10, 11. 1 Cor. 6. 11. And as these are by the word and spirit witnessed in them, and received by them, so and thereby is Christ in them, 1 John 5. 10. 20. Col. 1. 27. And by the word and Spirit in it with these riches received, is effected in them an inner man, a new heart, new Spirit, the mind and disposition of Christ, Ephes. 4. 20.-24. Col. 3. 10, 11. Rom. 8. 14, 15. 1 Cor. 2. 16. 2 Cor. 3. 3. 17, 18. And as this Spirit, and mind, and faith, and love is in them, so and therein is Christ and God in Christ in them, [...] John 3. 24. and 4. 13. 16. And from this abiding in the Spirit, flow springs and fruits diffuseing themselves through the man with motions of love, joy, bowels of mercy, heavenly desires, &c. Which as in them and yielded to, so and therein is Christ in them, Hos. 14. 8. Math. 13. 33. John 7. 38, 39. Gal. 5. 22, 23. Who by and with all these riches of his grace indueth them, with some usefull gifts more or less of the Spirit which pleaseth him; in which they may be use full in and with the grace received, and Christ in them and through them, and they by and from him shew forth his vertues to his praise, and the con­vincement and edification of others, and reproof of opposers, and so also is he in them, 1 Cor. 12. 4,-12. Ephes. 4. 7.-16. 1 Pet. 2. 4, 5. 9. and 4. 10. 2 Cor. 2. 14, 15, 16. And herewith also a discerning and savouring of the appearance of his grace, and oint­ments in believers of the same fellowship in the Gospel▪ so as though to others they be not savoury but offensive, yet by them they are acknowledged, tasted, en­tertained, received and approved in their hearts, and so in Union of love by Christs own interpretation, acceptation, and approbation is he received, entertained and enjoyed by them, 2 Cor. 2. 15. 17. 1 John 4▪ 6, 7. Math. 10. 40, 41. and 18. 5. And from and with all the former an experimental knowledge of the coming in, and efficacy of the love, grace and glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, and the treasures of life in him now slowing forth, and the hope of the glory to be enjoyed at his visible coming again, in which as they are in him so he is in them too, 1 John 5. 20. 2 Cor. 4 6, 7. Joh. 17. 3▪ 6, 7 Rom 7. 25. and 8. 1, 2. Phil. 3. 20, 21. 1 Thes. 1. 3, 4, 5. 10. And so Christ the quickning Spirit is by faith dwelling in believers hearts, and this is called the riches of the glory of the mystery among or in the Gentiles preached by the Apostle, Col. 2. 27. Where the Apostle saith, not as these perverters say of them­selves, P. 14. That Christ in them is the mystery, but the riches of this mystery is Christ in men the hope of glory, namely by faith in men as is before declared, even in such as unfeignedly believe in him, not the possession of glory, which is not to be enjoyed till his glorious appearing when these mediums now in use will cease, Col. 3. 3, 4. 1 Cor. 13. 10. 12. but the hope of glory. Thus far we have enlarged by occasion of this their eighth charge to shew how Christ dwells in the heart by faith for thy usefulness Reader, and now we proceed to their following charges.

9. I. H. To that of 1 Cor. 15. 45. The last Adam was made a quickning Spirit, John Horn said he was distinct from the eternall Spirit.

Ans. But John Horn added by way of explication, what they fraudulently sup­press, that he is distinct (he said not divided) from the eternall Spirit in which he offered up himself to God, the Holy Ghost▪ or the third of the three mentioned, 1 John 5▪ 7. and I. H. gave this reason for what he said, that the second Adam was made a quickning Spirit; the Holy Ghost was not made so, but was so eternally, so as the last Adams being a quickning Spirit was not.

10. T. M. To prove sin a naturall heritage in believers so long as they are here brought, Rom▪ 7. 17.

[Page 8] Ans. That indeed he brought amongst other proofs to prove sin even in the belee­vers a natural heritage from Adam. Is this a dangerous Principle to quote Scriptures for what we assert? see the Answer to the first Principle noted against us, besides which we may add; that in that and the foregoing and following Verses, some of which also were alledged, is a clear distinction between the outward and inner man, the new man in his Spirit that sinned not, and the members or mortal body, in which he says that even then sin dwelt, & that it was as a natural heritage from Adam appears in that he says, I am carnal sold under sin: not I have sold my self to sin, as it is said of Ahab willingly sinning, but I am sold, passively, as implying by another, and who could that be but the first Adam, by whose one offence many were made sinners. That all those Principles were asserted by us (as they say) is false, and so it is that they were con­tradicted by the truth, as what we have said to them evinces: They did wisely to say only, (That our darkness and confusion may easily be seen,) without assaying to prove it, because easier said then proved: Let us see what they do in answer to our Book.

The Reply to their Book.

WEE charged them (and yet do) to be guilty of great Errors: as 1. In pleading for and maintaining a perfection of sinlessness in themselves in this life. To this they say, ‘We are in the great Error our selves who deny the perfection of sinlessness in the Believers, for the Apostle said, He that believeth hath the witness in himself, 1 John 5. 10. which witnes is perfect and sinless, so not without the per­fection of sinlessness.’

Rep. See Reader, they intimately grant our charge and plead for it, but prevaricate or shuffle, for we did not fault them for asserting a perfection of sinlesness in the wit­ness of God, nor for saying that something in the beleever is sinless, but that they have the perfection of sinlesness in themselves, or are in themselves sinless, beside they clip the Text, they quote leaving out [on the Son of God] the object of the right beleeving, and so turn it into a lie, for the Devil is said to beleeve too, Jam. 2. 19. yet hath not the witness (sure) in himself, nor doth the witness of God appear to be in them, that is, in the right beleevers on the Son of God, they being not beleevers but denyers and underminers of him and the Fundamental matters of the testimo­ny of God concerning him, as the following Answer evinces.

They adde, ‘He that beleeveth hath the witness that he is righteous, and having this witness in himself, he is not without the perfection and purity of it in him­self, for the witness of God cannot be divided from the nature of it.’

Rep. It is not true that every one that beleeveth hath obtained witness that he is righteous, see Jam 2. 19. though he that beleeveth on the Son of God, and so in him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness, and in that sense he is righ­teous, Rom. 4. 5, 6, 7, 22, 24. and yet obtaining witness that one is righteous is a farther thing, Hebr. 11. 4. and as the witness of God cannot be divided from the na­ture of it; so neither can the Law in the members, the fleshly and carnal disposi­tion be divided from the nature of it; and as the one is in the beleevers heart, so the other is in his members, and these two warring the one against the other: but their arguing is like as if they should say, the beleever hath no flesh or blood in his bo­dy, because he hath a spirit in his body that hath neither flesh nor blood in it, or [Page 9] that they be guilty of the imperfection of witlesness because they have something in them (their gutts suppose) that be witless, and they are not divided from their na­ture; they adde, John said (speaking of Christ) as he is so are we in this world, 1 Joh. 4. 17. and therefore that we have manifestly wronged them and the Apostles.]

Rep. That we have either wronged them or the Apostles is false, for that they hold what we said, they do, they deny not, and that the Apostles so held they prove not; the place they quote says not, as Christ is without sin in himself, so are we in this world, no more then he saith as Christ is without a natural corruptible body, or without pain, ach, or bodily death, so are we in this world; they may as well ga­ther the one, as the other from that saying, and that the Apostle meant it not in re­spect of sinlesness, as men, is evident by comparing it with 1 John 1. 8. where he saith, If we say we have no sin we deceive our selves, and the truth is not in us; we may not strain Scriptures beyond their scope, nor may we say we are in every respect as Christ is either in himself, or to the world, or to beleevers: Christ is God over all, so are not the beleevers: Christ is the second Adam, a quickning spirit, so are not the be­leevers: Christ is the only begotten Son of God, so are not the beleevers on him: The only begotten Son of God, and they that beleeve on him are distinct and diffe­rent persons: Christ is the Saviour of the world, so are not the beleevers, not the Saviour, though instruments of saving men: Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and for the sins of the whole world, so are not the beleevers: Christ is the Head and Hus­band of the Church, so are not the beleevers; but as Christ is so are the beleevers, and in an eminent sense so were the Apostles in the world, in the judgement, knowledge, account of the world, as also in a measure set to be lights in the world: But the main scope is, that in respect of judgement, account, and estimate, as Christ is, so are we in this world; for he says, Herein is our love, or love with us made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgement: (when we are judged of men here) because as he is, so are we in this world, as to their receit, approvement, rejection, or disap­provement, we have our fellowship therein with him, which also gives us strong consolation and confidence that when he comes to judge he will justifie us that were here condemned with him; but what is this to their being sinless in themselves? They add, ‘That they say not there is any perfection themselves without Christ, who is their righteousness, and they the righteousness of God in him.’

Rep. That Christ is their righteousness, &c. is but their own testimony of them­selves which we cannot receive, because the true Christ (whom we with the Apostles look for from heaven, so to come again, as they see him go up;) they say p. 10. they desire not the knowledge of; nor doth their not saying that there is any perfection in them without Christ suffice to excuse them, for its an Error to say, that through Christ they have perfection in themselves so as to be perfectly sinless; even the beleever in Christ, though in Christ perfect, is not as yet perfect in himself through Christ while here. Paul though in Christ said he was not perfect, nor had attained, Phil. 3. 12, 13. no not to be sinless, Rom. 7. 20. 1 Tim. 1. 15. That Christ was manifested to take away our sin, and in him is no sin we granted, but added, that its never said so of any else, no where said by any of the Saints of themselves, or of any of their brethren, that they had no sin in them, or were not sinners: But they bid W. and F. ‘mark how fairly we contradict our doctrine by telling its said indeed that he that abideth in him sinneth not, and he that is born of God, doth not commit or work sin, [Page 10] because the seed of God abides in him, neither can he sin (that is, commit, work, or yeeld up himself to sin) because he is born of God, which they render as inconsist­ent with our counting their maintaining a perfection of sinlesness in this life, as a great error, and say we would accuse the Saints or brethren with being sinners.’

Rep. 1. Is this to accuse the Saints or brethren to observe what they have said, or not said of themselves or one another? If so, then all are accusers of them that ob­serve their sayings, and so it seems they to avoid accusing of them observe them not. If it be not then are they lyers (and so not sinless) that call our observing what they said, or said not of themselves, an accusing of them, for we did no more in those sayings they have quoted as any impartial Reader may see. 2. What we observed they said, contradicts not what we noted they said not; if they can find that they said of themselves or of their brethren, that they had no sin in them, or were not sin­ners, they should produce it, and prove us lyers, if not, then have they falsly char­ged us with self-contradiction. These two contradict not, John said, He that abideth in him sinneth not, and John said not, he that abideth in him hath no sin in himself, or is not in that respect a sinner, or that any doth perfectly abide in Christ in every operation and act, so as never to wander in his minde out of him: Paul abode in Christ in the main, and did not commit sin, for he says, Its no more I, but sin that do it, and yet Paul then had sin in him, for he adds, but sin that dwelleth in me: Yea, and said, that with his flesh he served the law of sin, and yet with his mind served the law of God, Rom. 7. 20, 25. Did Paul then contradict himself? If yes, then will we be counted contradictors of our selves also with him; if no, then neither do we contradict our selves; but either they are ignorant of the nature of contradictions, and so not perfect; or else knowingly say falsly, and so are vitious: We then yet ac­count what they maintain a great Error, and yet say what the Apostle John said, be­cause he said not what they say, that he that is born of God hath no sin in him, but on the contrary, If we say we have no sin in us, we deceive our selves, and yet they were born of God, sure they beleeved Jesus to be the Christ, and whosoever doth so is born of God, 1 Joh. 5. 1. so that any that are not blind may see the confusion and deceit in themselves that they would perswade them they may see in us, and we have not broken our selves (as they say falsly of us) against any stone, nor can any stone we war against in them break us, being but such as are to be removed out of Gods Vineyard, Isai. 5. 2. they adde:

W. and F. ‘If Christ be made manifest to take away sin then they in whom he is made manifest are not to have sin in them; so long as they are in this life, and if he that is born of God cannot sin nor yield up to sin, then he is not a sinner but clear and perfect from sin.’ Rep. We deny these inferences; the lat­ter we have spoken to and disproved above, to the former we say, I'ts not their duty to have sin as their phrase may seem to imply: Nor do we say it is their du­ty but their infirmity; even as to be weak and mortall is not their duty, but their burthen, but if by [are to have sin in them] they mean they have or will have sin in them so long as they are in this life; we deny that inference till they prove that Christ was manifested to take away sin, so as to take it wholly out of the nature of man in some of the particular persons in this life, and that too absolutely in­falibly; we are not to build our faith upon their inferences, but upon Gods say­ings, and God by his Apostle saith not Christ was manifested to take away sin, [Page] therefore in us is no sin as their Inference imports; therefore their Inference is denied by us; nor slumble we, much less do we break our selves at that stone: They adde, ‘Whosoever sinneth hath neither seen Christ nor known him; now they that affirm that the Saints or they that be born of God are sinners they might as well say that the Saints have neither seen Christ nor known him.’ Rep. True if by saying they are sinners they mean they be in their sins, and live in their sins, he that so sinneth hath neither seen him nor known him, but to be in sin and to have sin in men, to live in sin, and to have sailings or be overtaken with faults as, Gal. 6. 1. Are very different things, and in such sense he that saies the Saints are sinners that is have sin in them, and in some things, offend, doth not all one as to say they have not seen or known Christ; a man may be a sinner by having sin in him and yet not sin, as Rom. 7. 20. Paul did not the evil, yet saies, of whom (namely of sinners) I am the chief, by your inference Paul might have said he neither had seen Christ nor known him; and Isaiah might have said, I a man of polluted lips therefore mine eyes never see the Lord of hosts, whereas he sayes the contrary, for mine eyes have seen the King the Lord of hosts, which he spoke of Christ when he saw his glory, Isa 6. 5. Joh. 12, 41. See Reader how there runs a constant streame of mistake in all their writings.

To those phrases, He that is born of God cannot sin, we said it's no more then to say that a man acted of God cannot therein sin. To this they say, ‘It's no more then to say that a man acted of God cannot sin in being acted of God; or he that doth righteousness doth not sin in so doing.’

Rep. Yes it's some thing more, viz. That mens sinnings are not of God nor can be, and so that they that sin do not do righteousness nor are born or acted of God thereunto; contrary to many that pretend that whatever they do they are led of God thereunto, even then when they sin, and to that purpose. I was told by one (whether it be true I know not) that some of the Quakers should say, that what ever they do after they are believers or born of God (in their sense) they cannot sin in it: the Apostle Argues the root from the fruit, as in James 1. 13. Let no man say when he is tempted I am tempted of God, for God is not tempted with evill nor tempts he any mans but a man is tempted when led away by his own lusts, &c. As for reserving an accusation against him thats born of God, as they charge us it's answered before we accuse not whom God justifies, nor con­tradict we what John saith, that He that doth righteousness is righteous as God is righteous, for he saith not he that doth righteousness is as righteous as God is righteous in whom there is no sin; similitude there is but not perfect equality, yea therefore is righteous as Christ is righteous, not because there is no sin in him, but because Christ is made to him of God his righteousness; and in him he is righteous as Christ is righteousnot in himself through Christ as ighteous as Christ is in respect of being without sin, they adde ‘See here how they have accused the Apostle Paul I. H. and T. M. words are these, yea in 1 Tim. 1. 15. He saith he was then when an Apostle the chief of sinners.’

Rep. Here again they say falsely of us, unless to say what the Apostle said of himself be to accuse him; that the Apostle even when an Apostle said (not I was but) I am the chief (namely) of sinners see the Scripture quoted by us, nor fol­lows [Page 12] it as they imply, ‘that because the same Apostle in 1 Tim. 1. 12. Sayes that Christ counted him faithfull, and put him into the Ministry that we might as well say he that is faithful to Christ is the chief of sinners,’ no, it only follows that he that said he was counted faithfull by Christ also even then acknow­ledged himself the chief of sinners: and thats true unless they can blot out the words of Scripture and prove them false, read else and see if he that in verse 12. Saith that Christ counted him faithfull, &c. Sayes not verse 15. Christ came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the chief, is it we that said thus of Paul, or Paul that said thus of himself, let all men judge, or can they deny that Paul said of himself what we say he did, and when we say he said it, surely no, but they say ‘when as it is said Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief; and saith he had obtained mercy, now doth it not follow that Paul was one of the chief or greatest sinners; but he was one of the chiefest sinners that was saved by Christ, who saveth his people from their fins, and doth not suffer them to remain the greatest sinners when they are saved from sin.’

Rep. To this their glosse we say, doth Paul say of whom I was the chief, or of whom I am the chief? of his obtaining mercy he saith in the time past, I obtained mercy, but of his being the chief of sinners that Christ came to save, he saith not in the time past; I was but in the time present I am the chief. For though he did not sin so grosly as before, yet he was still the same sinner or sinfull man that Christ came to save, yea, and might possibly account every small neglect or failing a greater sin now then his greatest sins before; because sensible now of his more ingagement to Christ for his having shewed him such favour, a smaller offence against greater knowledge and mercy, may be greater then a greater sin against less knowledge and mercy, however what he said of Paul we proved and prove yet from the Text, that is, that he said of himself even then when an Apostle, that then, in the present tense, he was a chief sinner, if he said falsely of himself, then was he therein a sinner; if true, then have not we said falsely of Paul, nor accused him.

W. F. They say, ‘As for the Scriptures we bring, 1 Joh. 1. 8, 9, 10. and Jam. 3. 1, 2. These prove not that we would have them, that the Saints were not perfectly freed from sin in this life, they did not preach up sin and imperfe­ction to remain in this li [...]e (as they say we do) for both James and Joh. exhort them otherwise, for said James let patience have her perfect work that you may be perfect and intire wanting nothing, James 1. 4. And John said, if we walk in the light as he is in the iight, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin, 1 Joh. 1. 7. and Chap. 2. 1. My little children, these things have I writ unto you, that yee sin not, and if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father so he did not include them all as to remain sinners, for they were all sinners while they were not cleansed by the blood of Christ.’

Rep. 1. That these Scriptures prove not that the Saints were not perfectly freed from sin in this life, it's but their saying so, for are they perfectly freed from sin as to the being of it in them, that have it as these say they had, and David saith, no man living (and sure men are living while they are in this life) is so free from sin as to be justified, if God enter into judgement with them, Psal. 143. 2. And as for preaching up sin and imperfection, that is falsely and slanderously [Page 13] said of us, do we preach them up because we say they remain, sure then David preacht them up when he said as above. 2 James and John exhort to the contrary they say, is this a good argument or a piece of sophistry, John and James exhorted against sin, therefore they did not sin? is it not as good to say God commands all men every where to Repent, therefore no man is impenitont, all do repent. James said, let patience have its perfect work that ye may be perfect, &c. There­fore it seems they were not yet perfect nor intire, but wanted something: why else would he have so exhorted them? Nor doth that prove they ever were so perfect and intire as to have no sin in them while here, seeing Asa was perfect all his dayes yet had sin and sinned. 2 Chron. 15. 17. and 16. 7. 10. 12. Do the Apostles say, let no sin be in you, any where? Men are perfect and intire, and want nothing when they have all things that may further them to their glo­rifying God here in their generation, though they be not perfectly possest of all things they are capable of attaining hereafter, may they not as well say men may have all their happiness and glory here before their decease, the resurrection and whatever they may have in the world to come, because James saith, that ye may be perfect and intire wanting nothing? Again, can patience be said to have its perfect work in any, so long as it hath any further exercise for it, and hath it not something further till death be over.

3. To Johns saying, What need of cleansing from all sin, where is no sin to be cleansed from. He saith not, it hath cleansed us already, but cleanseth us, what cleanseth now finds something to be cleansed from; and doth not the Apostle plainly say so much, when he immediatly adds, If we say we have no sin, we de­ceive our selves, let all judge how these Quakers and the Apostles cross one the o­ther. They say, because it cleanseth us from all sin, those that it so cleanseth have no sin, the Apostle says immediately after that saying, If we say we have no sin we decei [...]e our selves, doth not prove these men to be deceived, and so to deceive others, seeing they are of such as say so. 4. What made them stop in their next proof, at (we have an Advocate, when the Apostle adds, and be is the propitiation for our sins,) they see the words, [our sins] mentioned there, and that scared them from the quoting it so far. Oh, do not their Consciences accuse them as juglers and deceivers in this Argument, and that they are afraid of the light, it shines so full against them? 5. And how follows their Conclusion then, ‘So then he did not include them all as to remain sinners, &c. Whom did he exclude, seeing the blood of Christ cleanseth them that have fellowship with God? (and had not the Apostles so by their own confession) yet they say our sins, and if we say we have no sin (even we that have fellowship with God) we deceive our selves: But they ask, W. and F. What one sin or sins we can lay to Paul, or James, or Johns charge, or to any of them that they were not perfectly freed from sin before their decease, let them prove some sin (say they of us) which was not destroyed in any of those before their decease (and who can lay any thing to the charge of Gods Elect) let them speak out and answer directly, or for ever be silent from pleading for sin, or accusing the righteous as they have done.’

Rep. It is enough that we beleeve Paul and James, and John, that they had sin, and did in many things all offend, though we cannot name their particular of­fences, as it is to believe multitudes to have died, though we know not of what particular diseases, would it not be a fine argument to say, prove of what particular diseases Ezra and Nehemiah and Esther died, or else be for ever silent [Page 14] of accusing them to have been mortall? That in many things they all offended we believe because James tells us so, but what were their many offences we know not because they tell us not, we can tell some sins these men are guilty of if they had asked us namely of lying, deceit, guile, sophistry taking up a reproach against their neighbour (as they do in the conclusion of their Book) Thomas Moore Sen. But what John and James in particular were guilty of besides naturall infirmity we cannot tell because the Holy Ghost hath not told us, nor do we lay any thing to their charge, nor did God because he forgave, justified and owned them through Christs death and intercession for them, which he needed not to have made for them, or been the propitiation for their sins had they had no sins then, yea it was their abiding in the faith of Christ and living upon him as the propitiation for their sins in which they sinned not, and the ceasing to live upon that as of no need for a man (as having no sins for Christ to be the propi­tiation for) is one way of going out from Christ into a mans self and so of not abiding in him, not say we their sins were not destroyed as to the dominion of them over them; much less that they were not freed from them through Christs mediation as to the imputation of them, they were covered though they were there to cover, they adde.

W. F. John did not say if we are not all sinners we deceive our selves, but if we say we have no sin and have not sinned, which if the little children that John wrote to, that they might not sin had sin then John might say we have sin, for he numbred himself with them as friends, or those whose sins were forgiven, and yet the yong men and Fathers he wrote to had overcome the wicked one and had the word of God abiding in them. 1 Joh. 2.

Rep. What confused deceitfull stuffe is this, for 1. What doth that word (which) belong to and agree with? And how come in those words [or those whose sins were forgiven] or how hang they with what went before them? 2. Are they not all sinners that have sin and that have sinned? What call they them then? And if they had sin then how were they sinless as they plead? 3. And what if John say not so, yet Paul said of whom (viz sinners) I am the chief and said so When he wrote to Timothy and was an Apostle, and James says in many things not onely we have sinned, but in the presenttense we offend all, are not of­fenders sinners? 4. If the little children wrote to that they might not sin had sin, what becomes then of their former argument from exhortations to be perfect or not to sin, &c. 5. And if John might thence say we have sin as num­bring himself with them as friends, what hypocrites be they then to fall so foul upon us because numbering our selves with the Nation we said we have neglected and long abused the truth? But yet, 6. How prove they that it was onely the little children that might have sin seeing James sayes in many things we offend all! if we all then not the little children only for they were not all the body of them? 'tis but a presumption without proof that he onely numbred himself with the little children without any ground for it in themselves; Nay, it is contrary to what James saith, 7. They say [or those whose sins were forgiven] why then be they not blind guides to say they whom the blood of Christ cleanseth from all sin have no sin in them; if those that had their sins forgiven might have sin in them! they that had their sins forgiven had they not all forgiven; and is not forgiveness of sin cleansing from sin and that cleansing too most properly from [Page 15] it which is by the blood of Christ, Rom. 5. 9. And if persons that have all their sins forgiven may have sin who then may not that are here? They imply the young men and fathers who had overcome the wicked one and had the word of God a biding in them, but then, 8. Had not the little children that had their sins forgiven them, overcome the wicked one and had they not the word of God abiding in them? They had the same thing in substance with the Fathers, for the Fathers knew him that was from the beginning and the little children knew the Father (is not the Father he that was from the beginning?) Were they children without the word of God abiding in them, or without overcoming the wicked one. David says he had hid the word of God in his heart, that he might not sin against him, and yet how often complains he of sin, and praies to have re­moved from him the way of lying, and implies that his eyes wandred after va­nity, and that his waies were not yet so directed as to keep his statutes and have respect to all Gods commandements? What else means; Oh that my waies were directed that I might keep thy statutes, and then shall I not be ashamed when I shall have respect to all thy commandements, Psal. 119. 5, 6. 11. 29. 36. And had not Paul overcome the wicked one when he sayes sin dwelt in him? Nor James, when he said in many things we offend all! surely they had, so that their rea­sonings are very aiery and without any proof from Scripture, or any thing but their own authority to warrant them.

W. and F. To Prov. 20. 9. Who can say I have made my heart clean, they say this is not against them, for they themselves do not say that they have made their hearts clean, it being Chrsts work to cleanse and ever to have perfected them that are sanctified, and Solomon saith the just man walketh in his integrity, and the righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way.’

Rep. They are shrewdly driven to their shifts, for they durst not repeate the whole Scripture we all edged because they know not how to stare in the face of it and find out an handsome glosse to elude it, what could they not think of one shift to evade that clause, I am pure from my sin? Yea their shift for the other is like Adams fig leaves, for what though it be Christs work to cleanse, yet the Apostles exhort believers to cleanse themselves from all filthiness of flesh and Spirit, may not a man as well collect from thence that a man may cleanse him­self from all filthiness of flesh and Spirit and so make his heart clean, as from other exhortations to be perfect, to infer, that a man may be free from all inhe­rency of sin here? Again, Peter saies, seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit, and in such a sense who can say I have made my heart clean so as that I am pure from my sin? And surely though Solomon saies the just man walketh in his integrity, yet he speaks not of a just man that hath no sin or sinneth not, for he saies, there is none such upon earth, Eccles. 7. 20. Which Scripture next you shamefully elude, for because its said, there is not a just man upon earth that doth good and sinneth not, they s [...]y W and F. Mark for there, among those that were in their changeable State, nor among them that are born of God, for they cannot sin.’

Rep. Ah fie for shame where speaks he of such a [the [...]] [...] in their changeabl [...] State? Doth not George Whitehead? en [...] and doth the word [ [...]] that signifies there is point out any [...] what is [Page 16] spoken should be bounded? Is not [there is] one word in the Latine, and there­fore in the English not to be severed as they do in their Mark? Is it not the sign of a Verb, And not an Adverb of place? Yea, do they not know, the word, there is, are not in the Hebrew Text neither? For they are put in a small character, to imply that they are not in the Hebrew Text, and if the Text have no there where will they Mark it, he saith, for not upon earth a just man that doth good and sinneth not; not one so perfectly and fully born of God in all things, and surely men are upon earth so long as they are in this life their having their con­versation in Heaven hinders not their being on earth; and 2. Are not the just and fearers of God in a changeable State while in this life? What means Joh else to say (though he was a perfect man, none like him in the earth) all the daies of my appointed time I will waite till my change come? Joh 1. 8. with 14. 14. He had, it seems, a change yet to come though a perfect man, and therefore born of God, without being born of whom is no perfection, and if none among all in the changeable State is without sin, or so just as not to sin, then perfect men, such as Joh was, are not so perfect as to be without sin; see how miserably they are ver thrown in all their arguings and subtersuges, they say.

W. and F. John Horn and Thomas Moore say there is no man that sinneth not, and it's true indeed, that Christ said of Nathaniel that he was an lsraelite in whom there is no guile; and then to this they answer, that we are confounded in what our selves bring, there was some in whom was no guile contrary to what we affirmed before against perfection.’

Rep. Here we have two or three of their lies more together, 1. In saying, we say there is no man that sinneth not, when as it was not we but Solomon, and the Spirit of God in him that said it; and we expressed it thus. Solomon also saith, 1 Kings 8. 46. There is no man that sinneth not. 2. In that they say we are con­founded in what we bring, and that that saying, there are some in whom is no guile; is contrary to what we affirmed before against perfection, did we ever say any thing before against this that there are some in whom is no guile, let the rea­der read what we said and judge. 3. It's false that we speak against perfection, for it was not against perfection, but against their corrupt and false Tenet about per­fection of sinlesness in themselves, or some mens being sinless here, and the Scripture saies nothing against what we said but for it, that in 1 King. 8. 46. Most directly, let us see how they shift the force of it.

W. and F. They say to it, Mark the words (for there) again amongst those that sinned against God. Rep. Miserable nonsensical shift, which first pulls the word (there) from the word (is) which in the Latine is but one word as George Whitehead knows, and therefore jugles and plays the Sophister to deceive simple people that take him for a Rabbi, nor is it in the Hebrew Text, as before we on the other place noted. 2. Makes the wisest of men to speak non [...]-sense or a Tauto­logy to God, and to say there is, no man among them that sin that sinneth not; wretched men that durst so abuse the Scriptures and the Holy men of God after this manner, by that way of glosse, when it is said there is no darkness nor shadow of death where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves, Joh 34. 22. They may teach people to elude it thus, Mark that (there) in mans goings there is none, but there is some somewhere else, and so when he said 'tis said, Isa. 45. 6. [Page 17] That they may know me from the rising of the Sun and from the West, there is none besides me, I am the Lord and there is none else, they may teach people as well to Mark the word (there) and so to conceit that though there be none in the East and West, yet in the North and South, there may be other Jehovahs or Lords, and so when he saies, verse 21. Tell ye and bring them near (namely them that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray to a God that cannot save) yea let them take councel together, who hath declared this, &c. Have not I the Lord and there is no God besides me a just God and a Saviour there is none besides me; they may bid people Mark the word (there) as if it pointed onely to those that set up the wood of their graven image, that among them there is no God nor Saviour but God; but among other people there is, Lord arise and scatter such enemies to thy truth in their abuses and perversions of it! but as knowing that was but a silly shift they fly to another and adde.

W. and F. ‘And this was in the time of the old covenant Solomon spake these words, but now the Lord makes a new covenant when he takes away their sins not according to the old covenant which the Israelites brake, Heb. 8.

Rep. 1. What needed this gloss if the other was good? 2. Then they will say either that in the time of the old covenant there was no man that sinned not, none no where; and then their Mark the word (there) is void, or else that then there was none amongst them that sinned who sinned not; but now there are some amongst them that sin that sin not, else why do they oppose the new co­venant and the old if the state of men under both be one and the same? It seems then in this time they may be sinless and yet sin, ly and forge and traduce and yet not sin in it all. 3. But were not Paul and John and James under the new covenant and yet they say in many things we offend all; and if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. But if in the time of the old covenant there was none that sinned not, why adde they a third refuge of vanity? viz.

W. and F. Solomon also said, let your heart be perfect with the Lord your God, and to walk in his statutes and to keep his commandements as at this day.’

Rep. What doth this imply [...]omparing it with their answer, but that either under the old covenant men might be perfect and without sin, and then their other answer was vain and foolish: or else that the perfection of heart So­lomon spake of, was not such as excluded all sinning or being of sin in men; for as much as that was said under the old covenant when there was no man that sinned not; choose which they will take of these: for one of them is necessarily implyed by them and either of them shews them to be confounded, and not to have confounded us with their Sophistry, or if they will their dreams and Do­minions which all faile them, then say.

W. and F. John Horn added, It is not said there that there was no sin in Nathaniell, to which they say, Iohn Horn here would accuse Nathaniel to have sin in him, when as Christ said there was no guile in him, Ioh. 1. 47.

Rep. 'Tis no accusation against a man to observe what is said of him in the Scripture, but they further charge Iohn Horn, ‘as erring in affirming as much as that all sin is not guile (which is Negative not an affirmative,) and fault his distinstuishing hypocrisie and envy from guile and yet confessing that [Page 18] guile is a deceitfull hiding a mans sin or deceit.’

Rep. Well if guile be a deceitfull hiding a mans sin then all sin is not guile, for that implies there is some sin beside guile, that guile, would hide or lead men to hide, but they add as a demonstration of our ignorance. ‘What is not hypocrisie a deceitfull hiding a mans sin, and is not every sin deceit, and deceit guile.’ To this we answer and let all men judge of it that can understand. 1. That not we onely but the Apostle Peter distinguishes between guile, and envy, and hypo­crisy, &c. When he says lay aside all malice and all guile, and hypocrisy, and envy, and evill speaking, unless they will make the Apostle Peter to speak Tau­tologies and multiply words without cause; for what need to say all malice, and all guile, if all malice and all guile are one and the same, and what need to adde after all guile [and hypocrisy, and envies, &c.] If all guile be all hypocrisy and envies, and all sins else? Judge Reader whether the Apostle would speak idle words and needless, Again, 2. To their question, is not hypocrisy a deceitfull hiding a mans sins, Answer, nay rather its a deceitfull counterfeiting vertue and good­ness (as they do) though where it is there is also guile to hide a mans sin, yet these two are distinct. 3. They say is not every sin deceit, and deceit guile. Answer, every sin is not that which is called deceit or fraud, nor every deceit guile, there is sin of ignorance and mistake without intention to deceive, or double heart­edness or deceit fulness of heart, when a thing is not known to a man; a man would do better if he knew, as when Paul reviled the high Priest, Act. 23. And so that ruler of his people, it was not deceit his so doing, or out of a mind to do deceitfuly, but out of mistake or ignorance, nor was it sin that he was deceived in his thoughts about him (for it is no sin for a man not to know the Person of another that he knows not) but his rashness and reviling him as he did though mistaking him was his sin, so that neither was that his sin guile nor was his being deceived about his Person or Office his sin, much less guile, in him; Let the understanding judge of what is said.

They adde. G. W. ‘This being Iohn Horns reason to prove all sin not guile because it is said in 1 Pet. 2. 1, 2. Laying eside all malice and all guile (Mark all guile) and hypocrifie: the word (and) being his distinction he might as well say envy is not malice because there is (and) between them.’ To which Iohn Horn replies. 1. Why say they Mark all guile, doth the saying all guile make it to be all sin, no sin but guile? Why then [all malice] should be Marked too, that thats all sin, and so no sin of ignorance, but all sin is malice, because its said all malice, and by the same reason because its said Ephes. 4. 31. All bitterness; bitter­ness too should be all sin. 2. Why Mark all guile, rather then Mark, and hypocri­sy, as distinguishing hypocrisy from guile, for (and) uses to couple things di­stinguished most usually. 3. Why say they the word (and) is my distinction, when it was the Apostle Peters too as well as mine. 4. I may say that envy is not all malice; though it have malice in it, yet malice may be without it in some cases. I may say my elbow is not my arm though it be in my arm, so I may say envy is not malice though malice be in it; there is a distinction between them, envy is a looking at anothers prosperity with grief at it, malice is an evill will towards a Person; whence envy proceeds, you adde. ‘That in that thing many see my folly at the dispute in affirming that all sin is not guile, when as all guile [Page 19] doth onely include one sin as I would have it, but all sin, and any sin makes a man guilty, and so he hath guile in him, so that he that had no guile in him had no sin in him.’

Rep. Who would not pitty and bewaile the miserable case of those people that are carried about by such silly deceitfull men as these be, for in this. 1. They say falsly in saying many see my folly at the dispute in saying all sin is not guile; for how is that folly that stands against all their deceit, some possibly might not understand the truth of what I said through their own folly, but that any could see my folly in what it was not to be seen is impossible. I am sure divers see their folly in affirming all sin to be guile, and the sorry waies they took to prove it, and that they may see yet, for. 2. When as all guile (they say) doth onely include one sin as I would have it, then it is as I would have it, it seems; and then where is the folly to be seen but in them that charge me with it; and then, say it is as I would have it, but I suppose the word (not) is omitted in the printing, for I will be in­genious though to an adversary, they should have said all guile doth not onely include one sin as I would have it, but if that be their minde, yet they bely me in saying I would have all guile include but one sin; I would rather say it is one spring or kind of sin, and is included in many or divers sins and yet is not the di­vers sins in which it is, nor is it included in every sin, much less includes it all sin no more then all malice or all bitterness includes all sins, because they include di­vers acts of sin. 3. When they say (any one sin makes a man guilty, and so he hath guile in him) they speak very ignorantly or very guilefully (for I distin­guish them) ignorantly if they think guile and guilt of one denomination, and guilty to come from the word (guile) and so all that makes guilty, to make guily. Guilty is said of guilt, I trow, and not of guile, though guile produces guilt, yet a man is not denominated guilty from guile but from guilt, and guil­full from guile. If they know not this; they are very ignorant and not perfect in knowledge and then they are wretchedly unhappy that take them for Oracles that are so ignorant. If they know this, then dealt they guilfully and intended to deceive simple ignorant people that cannot distinguish things that differ, by their Sophistry: and then the case of their followers is yet more wretched, which things being so. 4. Their conclusion cannot follow from those premises, viz. ‘So that he that had no guile in him had no sin in him,’ but the contrary; so that he that had no guile in him might have ignorance and other sins in him.

G. W. ‘They accuse J. H. also of turning George Whiteheads words in saying, he said guile is a transgression of the law, therefore guile is all sin, which (they say) is falsly framed, and that the words were to this effect. Every transgression of the law is guile or sin, and all guile includes all transgression of the law,’ therefore every sin is guile.

Rep. I call God and men to witness whither George Whitehead be not herein a notorious lyer, who hath shamefully turned his own words and belyed both himself and me, why else should I match it and detect his Sophistry in his syllo­gisme by this as like it, all sin is a transgression of the law, but lying is transgression of the law, therefore lying is all sin. It is true that syllogism of his was falsly framed, and so much I told him then, but it was of his own framing; nor does he repeate it here as I writ it rightly, and as he framed it, but leaves out the word (all) in [Page 20] the minor and the whole major proposition, as any that compare our books may discern. And when they say their words were to su [...] effect as they repeat; why say they not directly they were their words? may they not as boldly lye and falsifie in one thing as in another? and what kind of argument have they framed here, sure as corrupt as that he framed then: for here is but onely the same falshood affirmed in three severall forms of words to the same sense and none of them proved; and yet they would infer the last form of them from the two former, just like this; every transgression of the law is anger or sin; and all anger includes all trans­gression, therefore every sin is anger, but why saies the first proposition, every transgression of the law is guile or sin; tis true, its one of them if their (or) dis­joyn then they distinguish sin and guile, if it but explicate then they beg the que­stion instead of proving it. Oh! Lord deliver this Nation and the poor ignorant people from such sophisters as these be that lead men to destruction. They aske.

G. W. ‘What sin can we prove that Nathaniel had in him when he had no guile in him; and tell us, ‘we must prove some sin then in him or see our selves confuted.’

Rep. They may as well say, seeing the Scripture witnesses that the children of Korah dyed not in the judgement that befell Korah and his company, what disease dyed they of? and if we cannot prove that they dyed of some disease then we are confuted if we believe and hold that they dyed. For as there are many dis­eases they might dye of, though not in that judgement; so there be divers sins besides guile, secret sins distinct from presumptuous sins as David implies, Psal. 19. 1. When they tell us what were those secret sins David prayed to be cleansed from, distinct from presumptuous sins, then may we tell them what sins Nathaniel had distinct from guile; David implies sins in them, though forgiven and covered, in whose Spirits is no guile, Psal. 32. 1, 2. Which we also quoted, and that will save us from being confuted though we can prove no one particular sin in Nathaniell, but that Scripture they skip over in silence, as afraid to meddle with it because thereby they are confuted.

To our Quotation of Ed. Borroughs saying that saints upon earth may be per­fectly freed from the body of sin and death; and our concluding them from their doctrine of sinlesness to be deceivers. They say.

W. and F. ‘Here we might as well have accused the true Prophets and Apostles.’ (Rep. It seems then by their own intimation they be not such but false Prophets and Apostles; what needed that word (true) by way of distinction of them from themselves else, if not to imply that they also be Prophets and Apostles but not true? Mind this Reader and beware of them then) for say they ‘they witnessed to the same the Quakers witnesse to.’

Rep. Here they own themselves Quakers too, so that we may call them law­fully so, whereas they traduce us by many Nick names that we own not, as Moo­rians, Manifestarians, Freewillers, &c. Did the true Apostles and Prophets ever so nickname their Opponents as these false ones do?) But let us see their proof that the true Apostles and Prophets witnessed to the same things that the untrue ones the Quakers do. They adde ‘as said the Prophet, Blessed are the undefiled in the way, they also do no iniquity, Psal. 119. 1, 2, 3. And saith the Lord ye shall [Page] be clean from all your filthiness, Ezek. 36. 25. And Christ exhorted his to be perfect as their heavenly Father is perfect, Math. 5. 48. And every one that is perfect shall be as his Lord; and the same Apostle who said, ye are com­pleat in Christ, said, also in whom ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, Col. 2. 10. 11.

Rep. Here is no place yet saies, that either those Holy men themselves or any others then living were without sin in themselves, which is the thing should have been proved. 1. As for the Prophet David, lived not he under the old Te­stament as well as Solomon whose saying, there is no man that sinneth not they would therewith have eluded; but [undefiled in the way] may signifie; either in Christ who is the way, John 14. 6. And that we granted or; in the way of their walking, so as Zachariah and Elizabeth were blameless in their walking in all the statutes and commandements of the Lord, and yet Zachary had sin in him, which discovered it self when tried with the vision, for he believed not the Angel and therefore was punished with blindness, Luke 1. 6. 20. And [they do no iniquity] perverse evil, as the word signifies, is all one with, they do not com­mit sin, yet even such as do not commit sin have sin in them, yea and with their flesh serve the Law of sin, as we may read, Rom. 7. 20. 25. 2. In that of Ezek 36. 25. They confound things distinguished, for it is not said (as they quote it) in one and the same period, you shal be clean from all your filthiness; but the words are distinguished thus. I will sprinkle clean water upon you and you shall be clean: (theres a half stop and then follows) from all your filthiness, and from all your idols will I cleanse you. And as God promised to do so doth and will he do; the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin, and yet it follows, If we say we have no sin we de­ceive our selves, and he is the propitiation for our sins, 1 John 1. 7, 8. and 2. 2. As was before noted, he that forgives and cleanseth us by way of pardon from all sins, bids us also pray as duly as for our daily bread, forgive us our trespas­ses, &c. 3. As for exhortations to be perfect, they prove not the being of the thing exhorted to. They supposed above the little children to whom the Apo­stle wrote that they might not sin, might have sin in them not withstanding. Nor is all perfectiom, perfection of sinlesness in mens selves; Asa was perfect hearted all his daies and yet had sin and sinned, 2 Chron. 15. 17. and 16. 9. And yet every one that is perfect shall be as his Lord, he saies not he is so; yea in saying he shall be, he implies he is not yet so: but when he shall appear we shall be like him: for we shall see him as he is. This we granted: but they skipt it over. 4. The Apostle said, they were circumcised with the circumcisiou made with­out hands in the putting off the body of sins of the flesh: but it was in Christ he saies, for so much the words [in whom] signifies. And the same Apostle in the same Epist. Col. 1. 10. 11: to the same people therefore he saith, but now you also (Mark now also) put off all these, anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy com­munication, &c. Col 3. 8, 9. it seems then they had those things yet to put off still: for can any put off what is not? So to the Ephesians too, when he had said they had learned to put off the old man and put on the new; he addes, wherefore: putting away lying, speak every man truth to his brother; a lesson these men have not yet learned. To the Corimbians also he saith: purge out the old leaven that [Page] ye may be a new lump even as ye are unleavened, so that in some sense (in Christ) they were unleavened, and yet in other sense needed to purge out the old leaven, which implies it was yet in them, for how can a man purge that out of him that is not in him; but they through ignorance confound these things, and run themselves and Auditors into delusion.

Again p. 5. l. 36. They distinguish the true Prophets, Christ and his Apostles from themselves that are accused by us, and so again imply, that they be nei­ther the true Christ, nor his true Prophets or Apostles. Reader, mind it, they give out themselves for Prophets and Apostles; and some of them say they are Christ, but they are false ones, and why then plead they for their false pro­phecyings and witnessings! But they indeed shew their confusion and rayling against us, as after will appear to their own delection and shame, as for their innocence, no liers are innocent but they be over and over proved liers, that perfect heartedness, and compleateness in Christ may consist with sin being in men in this life we have shewed. And they cannot disprove unloss they will blot out, Col. 2. 10. with Chap. 3. 8. 2 Chron. 15. 17. so 1 Cor. 5. 8. 9. Which we noted above, either let them say those Scripture sayings are false, or else own their own words to be false, in saying that ‘we fight against our own words,’ and that ‘they that are compleate in Christ are perfectly freed from sin (name­ly) as to all inherency of it in themselves, or they say nothing to purpose;’ that ‘sinners are out of the compleatness of Christ’ (which though in some sense true, viz. Of sinners out of Christ, yet is not universally true, except Paul when he said of sinners I am the chief, was out of Christs compleatness) that ‘the heart that hath sin dwelling in it is not perfect,’ contrary to, 2 Chron. 15. 17. with 16, 17. Where Isaiahs heart is said to have been perfect all his daies, and yet he is charged with relying on the King of Asyria, and not re­lying on the Lord his God, and those were heart-sins, surely, and they dwell there too for some time, as the verses before manifest.

p. 6. ‘They accuse us of confusion, that we say believers are come to a further state and covenant then Adam was in before his fall; who then had no sin in him and yet accuse the believers (they say) with having the body of sin, or not being perfect while here.’

Rep. Here they shew their own confusion for the believers being in a better state or convenant in Christ, hinders not their having sin yet in themselves to purge out, as is evident in Col. 2. 10, 11. with 3. 5. 8, 9. No more then it hinders them from having infirmides and death which Adam unfallen had not, besides they have added a lie or two, as that we accuse the believers with having a body of sin, then Paul accused them when he said the believers old man is crucified with Christ that the body of sin might be destroyed, the words (might be) plainly imply it a thing not then done but to be done, as in all like expressions is evi­dent, and that we accuse them with not being perfect when in divers respects we grant them to be perfect, as perfect in Christ Jesus, and many of them per­fect with Christ in their Spirits without guile there, and perfect comparative­ly to some others, &c. In the same page they wrong us in giving it as our saying ‘that Adam might possibly sin and die but not so the believers,’ where­as we added what they suppress to not so the believer; not under a covenant of [Page] works here: nor hereafter the resurrection capable of sinning, and dying as Adam before his fall was, again they say, we would accuse the Quakers of being sinners because of their dying, which is false, let any man read our book, p 3. What we said is thus, that the Quakers are not in Adams state before the fall, because Adam had no death, then upon him as the Quakers have, for they must die; but they say, ‘here our darkness appears, for believers dying the natural death doth not prove them sinners while here, for through death they gain more of the peace and glory of God; which they partake of in their life time,’ which is both confused and inconcludent, for what if the believer gain by his death, may it not therefore argue he had sin in him while he lived; is not the being freed from the body of death, and inherency and combating with sin again think they? Though we did not bring it for an argument to prove what they charge us with as we before discovered, and for their confusion, their words sound as if they believed that the greater gain by their death they have it all in this live; for they say not more of the peace and glory of God then they partake of in this life, but which they partake of in this life, but where can they shew us any that ever died that either had not sin in him or sin imputed to him.

They imply p. 6. l. 25, 26. By their taxing us with the contrary ‘that Adam might have died the naturall death if he had not sinned, and to prove it adde, for Christ died who had no sin.’ To which we reply. 1. Did Christ die a naturall death; was it naturall to Christ to die. 2. Had Christ no sin of ours upon him which occasioned his death! or should he have died though he had not them, laid upon him? He bare our sins in his own body on the tree therefore he had sins though none of his own, he did no sin neither was guile found in his mouth (see there guile and sin distinguished, as if all sin is not guile, or guile not all sin) yet he bare our sins, 1 Pet. 2. 22, 24. 3. Is this a good in­ference, Christ died that did not sin; yet had our sins charged or laid upon him, therfore Adam should have died a natural death though he had not sinned, let the reader judge, they say ‘Christ died to destroy the death that came by sin.’

Rep. 1. If death came by sin, as the Apostle testifies in Rom. 5. 12. What death was that if not the naturall death! Or where doth the Apostle distinguish and say, there is a death of men that came in by sin, and the death of men that came not in by sin, and that's the natural death? Or where find we mention of Adams dying before and without respect to his sinning in any kind of death. 2. Did not Christ by death destroy the naturall death, both in taking away its force for taking us out of favour and fellowship with God, and in becom­ing the Resurrection and life from death by whom men shall be raised up out of it at the last day? Did he not destroy that kind of death which he died; and if that was the naturall death, as they say, the bodily death, we may say then that he also destroyed: and so destroying that death that came in by sin, it fol­lows that the naturall or bodily death came in by sin too; and so that Adam should not have died had he not sinned. Do they think that we will worship them and call them the masters of our faith to receive their dictates without proof? Let them shew that Adam might have died the natural death, or the belie­vers either, if they had not sinned.

[Page]They say, ‘They who die in the Lord are blessed, and to die is gain to them’

Rep. True, but its by vertue of the Lord in whom they die, that turns their curses into blessings; death into life. Nor is it natural to die in the Lord, though to die be. Its true too ‘[that the righteous mens dying was not charged upon them as a reward for their sin]’ and yet true too that had they never been sinners or sinned in Adam they had never died, for as much as by one mans sin, death passed upon all as the Apostle witnesses, as a reward of Adams sin and theirs in him it first was denounced, and though through Christ the weight and de­structiveness of it is removed yet the carcass of it remains upon men generally, though through Christ turned to the believers gain.

W. and F. They say, ‘God said to Adam in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt die, but Adam lost not his naturall life in the day he eat of the tree of knowledge: for after that he lived in the body.’

Rep. Herein again they shew their confusion, for what though Adam lived in the body after he eat of the tree of knowledge, follows it he had not lost his life, that day he eat? A man my loose or forfeit that which may not presently be taken from him: men loose their lives in a Law sense when they do such things as subject them to the Law, so as they are thereby condemned to die; though death be not presently executed upon them. That day he died then in the sen­tence of the Law though not as to its execution upon him, which yet had been then executed too, its probable, had not Christ the Mediator interposed be­tween him and death to die for him. Besides that a thousand years being to the Lord but as one day and he dying in that space he might be said in that sense to have died on the day he sinned.

‘They say, The covenant Adam was in before his fall, was a covenant of life: for he was in the image of God and a living soul; having the breath of life in him and had dominion in it, while he stood in his habitation, &c.

Rep. That Adam was under a covenant of life before the fall is true (nor opposes our sayings, but their own, that Adam might have died the naturall death though he had not sinned.) But they have weakly proved that it is so: for sure the covenant made with him was with him alive and as a creature, and not made with him before he was a living man, and therefore his being in the image of God, a living soul, having the breath of life in him and dominion in it, as they speak, are not to the purpose. The covenat might concern their con­tinuance to him, not his being made first in them; ‘they adde, this state have the believers proved and witnessed, that life and nature and image that was in man before the fall, though they become further in the second Adam who is greater then the first Adam.

Rep. Still they dictate magisterially; where have the believers proved that state of Adam and witness it, let them shew it in all the Scriptures: for as for their witnessings they are of no Authority with us, its the truth of their wit­nessings we would have them prove and not onely tell us they are true, for we are not of the mind with some simple that believe every of their words, to believe that their sayings are as good or better then the sayings of the Pro­phets and Apostle in the Scriptures, have any believers, ever witnessed that [Page 25] they were without sin as Adam, & under no more sentence of death, then Adam while in his innocent condition, let them shew us that, that we may believe it, have any believers proved that state of Adam to have life in themselves and not in Christ crucified as Adam had? And how are they come further in the second Adam: are they led to that and the second Adams state too? Where prove they that? Into the naturall life of Adam as earthly and fallen, full of sin and death, such as Adam fallen derived to them they are born, and through it are led, yea and out and beyond that in Christ in a measure here, and fully hereafter; but that Christ leads them first into the state of Adam innocent, and then into the state of Christ, they must prove, and not onely dictate before it find credit with us, or with any that know and believe the Scriptures, ‘but they imply, That if Adam was under a covenant of works, do this and live, then he should not have lived when he was in innocency till he had done some thing to merit life.’

Rep. The mistake of this is shewed above, in that that covenant was not for the first giving, but for the continuance of his life in the favour of God and that (though he could not merit by any works and obedience) was to be con­tinued upon his working, that that was good sinlesly, otherwise he was to die, as appeared in that he lost it by his sinning and fell under death, from which that covenant afforded no Redemption as the covenant in Christ doth; so that we have not spoken ignorantly as they charge us, but the ignorance is found with them, that confound what covenant Adam was under with what was given to the people of Israel; for convincement of their sin when fallen. The covenant of works or Law as given to fallen man in the hand of a Mediator entred be­cause of transgression till the seed came, and so was given with subordination to the covenant of grace, even the grace of God in the Redeemer from the fall and the death that came by sin; as the naturall death also did: though they er­roneously imply the contrary, and no marvaile for if that death be by sin, then there must be a Redemption out of that death; and so a Resurrection of the body from it: which seeing they deny how can they grant it comes in by sin, and that the seed should Redeem the creature out of it? So that herein also their iniquity and corrupt judgement is seen and the root of their deniall that the naturall death came in by sin; namely their deniall of the Redemption by Christ from that death and so the Resurrection of the body from it as after will more appear, so that here Reader we have a complication of errours in them. Thus much to their defence of their first errour about their sinlesness, let us see how they defend their second.

Our second charge of them was about the personall body of Christ, in which he suffered, which that it is ascended into Heaven, the Heavens without all men and above the clouds opposed to the visible earth, we say they would not be brought to acknowledge; touching which whether we questioned severall times altering our words as they charge us, let them judge that read our book. But they say, W. and F. ‘We contradict our selves because we say that they said the same body that suffered was glorified at Gods right hand in hea­ven.’

Rep. Nay, not unless by that body and that Heaven we say they meant as [Page 26] we expressed in our question, which we said they did not, and they in their book clearly manifest the truth of what we therein said; so that it's but another falshood added to the former, to say that we are stifled in our own confusion; and another yet, to say, that ‘we charge them ignorantly with what they meant:’ for here they plainly say, W. and F. ‘It appears we hold Christ hath two bodies in telling of a mysticall body, and not receiving that as in answer, that his body is the Church the fulness of him, that filleth all in all, and in that from our words (they say) we would have Christ to have a body besides or distinct from the fulness of God, when as the Scripture doth not say that Christ hath two bodies, or that his body is a body of flesh and bones without the blood in it, as they say we told them.’

Rep. See here Reader, did we ignorantly charge them, that by the body they said was glorified in Heaven, they meant his Church; do not they here speak it out while they tax us with holding Christ hath two bodies, because we say he hath his personall body in which he suffered, and which he shewed to have flesh and bones in it, as a Spirit hath not. And is it more absurd for Christ to have in two senses, a body or two bodies in different senses of the word body, then for the believer to have two heads in two distinct senses; hath not George Whitehead and the rest, each of them their personall head in which they have tongues with which they smite them that are more righteous then them­selves? And if they were believers in truth, should they not have Christ for their head too? And why then may not Christ have a body of his own as a man, the man Christ Jesus, in which he shewed his Disciples flesh and bones; and yet have a body mysticall, or body signifying a Church, society or con­gregation as he is the Ruler and Governour of them and in them by his Spi­rit? And doth not the Scripture set forth both these to us as distinct bodies, though those very words two bodies it hath not; was it his body the Church in which he shewed his Disciples his flesh and bones, hands and feet that were pierced with Nailes, and in which he bare our sins on the tree? And was it his personal body for which Paul filled up the remainder of the sufferings. Col. 1. 24. Is there not expresly the body of his flesh mentioned, Col. 1. 22. In which he reconciled us to God (his now glorious body in the Heavens to which the body of his Church is to be fashioned into the likeness of it, Phil. 3. 20. 21.) And the body his Church, Col. 1. 24. See here how these men broadly deny Christ as man, and onely make him a Spirit filling the Church, and so the Spirit and the Church to be Christ and is not that all the Christ they confess now to be? And whereas they say, "we would have Christ to have a body besides and distinct from the fulness of God, Col. 2. 9. We say, we acknowledge a body in which dwells the fulness of the Godhead, which we say is distinct from the fulness of the Godhead that dwells in it, and is distinct too from the Church, the fulness (it is not said of God as God) but of him that filleth all in all, that is of Christ as Mediator in the power of God, Ephes. 4. 9, 10. Yet that his body is a body of flesh and bones in Heaven without blood, in it we determined not: but that that body of flesh and bones, or in which he shewed his Disciples flesh and bones, is asc [...]nded up into Heaven, and he as in it is glorified; against which they reason th [...]

[Page 27] W. and F. ‘It's not proper to say a body of flesh and bones is in the Hea­vens, as if it were in many places at once, for Heavens are more then one;’ a silly reason: for by that reason it's not proper to say a body of flesh and bones is in the waters, or a stone sinks in the waters, for waters are more then one, Heaven and Heavens are indifferently used in the Singular or Plurall number; as water and waters be, as we find the birds of the Heavens, Jer. 4. 22. And the fowls of the Heavens, Jer. 9, 10. And often fowls of Heaven, as Job. 35. 11. Jer. 7. 33. They adde, ‘the body is one and hath many Members, 1 Cor. 12. 12. Answer, thats said both of a personall and mysticall body or society in diffe­rent senses; true also that ‘the body of Christ (either Personall or mysticall) is not carnall but spirituall)’ nor was it carnall when he shewed it to have flesh and bones: carneum and carnale differ, a heart of flesh and a carnall heart differ, for when God promises a heart of flesh he means not a carnall heart; so that these are sorry mistakes not solid arguments, against Christs having his personall body, glorified in the Heavens. They say

W. and F. ‘They who are carnall as we be (they say, and we shall bear their reproaches) could not discern that body they grant him to have, though the outward bodies of believers they might discern; and yet this body of Christ is discerned by the believers who are led by the Spirit of God: and is in heaven above the clouds, which they that are gazing abroad, and looking carnally to see Christ, they discern not the Lords body, for they see not through the clouds into the heavens; so Christ is taken out of their sight.’

Rep. Now here the reader may take notice, both that the body they say is in Heaven above the clouds glorified is not a personall body, such as Christ shewed his Disciples after his Resurrection, for they said p. 7. His body is the Church, and the Scriptures saith not that Christ hath two bodies'; and also what Heavens they say Christs body is in, viz. above the clouds in mens imaginations: but however they cast mists and clouds in their expressions, blessed be God, we are able to discern their meaning, that they mean nothing less by Heaven, then the Heavens without men, and such as Christ being taken into, he was thereby parted from his Disciples that beheld him, as Luke 24. 51. ‘But Stephen (they say) that was full of the Holy Ghost saw the Heavens opened and the Son of man standing on the right hand, of his Father; and John in the Spirit saw into Heaven, &c.

Rep. Yea, verily Stephen saw into that Heaven, and saw that person that they believe not for want of the Holy Ghost the Spirit of faith; what Son of man did Stephen see in Heaven? Nothing but the Church as filled with Word and Spirit, glorified in a glorious Heavenly condition; is the Church of God the Son of man: or is the seed in them the Lord Jesus into whose hands he commended his Spirit? And did the Spirit of Stephen then when separated from his body go into the Church of God the rest of the surviving believers, or into some seed within himself and them; let them speak out and unriddle their dark parables, and open their cloudy conceits, that men may see into their Heaven where they think Christ was seen by Stephen; and So that we did not [Page 28] ignorantly charge them with their meaning therein; but they would seem to give an Answer to our Question here, which they could not think on at the dispute, viz. ‘That Christs body is not distinct from the Spirits of all men; as it is distinct from carnal bodies.’ Answer, They would have stopt sure at [the Spirits of all men] but that they love to be in the clouds, that their meaning may be taken out of the simples sight. They adde that [as he is distinct from car­nall bodies] to cover over a lie with the face of truth, and blind men with the shew of an Answer, when as in truth it's none: for our Question was not whether Christs body be distinct from the Spirits of all men in the same man­ner as from carnall bodies; but whether the body they speak of [rather] be distinct from both of them, be the manner what it will; To their additionall falshood [as we imagine] as if we imagined it distinct from them both after the same manner, we say, it's as truely distinct from the one as from the other, but not after the same sort; it differs from the carnall bodies of men in carna­lity, and grosness and corruptibility, &c. It differs from the Spirits of men in substance, it's a body and they are Spirits; yet it is distinct from both of them because neither are they it, nor it they, but let us view their reason for the dif­ferent distinction between them. They say, ‘The Sperits of just men, &c. rejoyce in him.’

Rep. Who do they rejoyce in? In his body or not; for we are speaking of the distinctness of his body from their Spirits, if they and their Spirits be his bo­dy, how rejoyce they in his body? Do they rejoyce in themselves; or is there another body for them to rejoyce in, besides themselves that rejoyce all of them in Union? They say, ‘The true Church in Christ which discerns his body in his fulness is but one compleat body in the fulness of God.’

Rep. Here they are in the clouds indeed, but clouds of darkness, his light is not spread upon them, for, 1. What difference is there between the true Church that discerns, and his body discerned by it; if as they said before his body is his Church, and we read not of two bodies of Christ? If none, then his Church discerns its self and rejoyces in it self: and the Church that dis­cerns it self is one compleat body in the fulness of God (before it was the ful­ness of God, & now it is in the fulness of God; but the Scripture saies neither of it) if the Church which is his body see or discern another body of Christ besides itself, then they must say too, there are two bodies of Christ, one that discern­eth, and another that is discerned by it, which they before denied and reasoned against; what confusion are they herein? By which we are so far from knowing, that they own what the Scriptures do declare concerning Christ and his body, as they say of themselves, that we hereby know them to be they that do not own it, and we will discern notwithstanding their palliating over the bu­siness with subtile expressions, as ‘[That the same that descended into the lower parts of the earth; is he that ascended far above all Heavens, that he might fill all things, the same Christ that suffered in the body at Jerusalem, who ap­peared in divers forms after the Resurrection, in the transfiguration before, the same arose again, and was taken in his ascending out of the sight of them that gazed after him; and is glorified in the same glory which he had with [Page 29] the Father before the world was]’ yet we see your deceit, that in all this you yet deny that body that he suffered in to be now in glory, that personal body that had flesh and bones in it, and therefore that you believe not what was said to those you reproach for gazing after him, that he should even so come again in like manner as they had seen him go up into Heaven; for that was in a body with flesh and bones in it, and was visible to the eye till a cloud received him out from their sight: and that this you deny, appears in what you have said before of the Church being his body onely, and by what follows, viz. That ‘[as he who is the Word became flesh, so when the days of his flesh were finished, he was translated into his own glory which he had with his Father from eternity; and so the second Adam is a quickning Spirit]’ for in those words you imply that his flesh, or the substance of his body in which he bare our sins is ceased, and so that his humanity, or what he took of the Virgin, and of the seed of David after the flesh is gone, so as he is onely a Spirit with­out any human body: but how then did the Apostle oppose Christ in his as­cending into Heaven unto David? Acts 2. 34, 45. For by that David ascended as much as Christ, for his Spirit went to God when his body went to the dust, Eccles. 12. 7. And it seems by your sayings, Christs body is not ascended, but by the Apostles saying, Christ is opposed to David in ascending in what he [Da­vid] ascended not, whose body he says is the sepulchre; therefore it follows, that the body of Christ is ascended, and is taken up into glory, and is called the glorious body of Christ to which the believers body is to be conformed and changed into its likeness; not into the Churches likeness sure, which as yet is much of it in a suffering state, and not a glorious body; yea, the Apostle tells us, that of the fruit of Davids loines according to the flesh Christ is raised up to sit upon his throne, Acts 2. 30. Is he the man Jesus, the Mediator of God and us, the propitiation for our sins as a Spirit merely! Or is he the man Christ as he is God in us, or a Spirit in Union with his Church? And is so as he, the propitia­tion for our sins; then he bare his own sins in his body, and is the propitia­tion for himself; seeing the Church is he or part of him, his body that was offered up for us. It's true, the second Adam was made a quickning Spirit, yet abides a man, and hath a glorious body dictinct from his Church, to which our body is to be conformed; even as Adam was a living soul yet had a natural body.

W. and F. To your question, you aske us, viz. ‘Whether we believe that body the saints upon earth do discern, and which the world cannot discern is a body of flesh and bones, yea or nay.]’ We answer, it's the body that was broken for us, and is to be fed upon by us, as is plain in 1 Cor. 11. 24. 29. [not discerning the Lords body] it's that that is remembred and communicated with in the supper of the Lord which ordinance you have denied in your queries to us, and that body was the same that Christ shewed to have flesh and bones in it; and in which he went up into Heaven, as before, think you the Church was given and broken for us: and is the breaking of the Church that which we are to have communion with, and remember as the matter of our seeding in that Ordinance? Though the body mysticall of Christ his Church, [Page] is also to be discerned by the believers and is not by the world: but if the Church be the body discerned which in the supper we have the communion of, and which was broken for us; then the flesh of Christ which we eat is some­thing of the Church, the flesh and substance of the Church, and so the Church is to eate itself; what confused stuff is this that is insinuated by you to us? But by the reason you give off your propounding that question, viz. ‘[seeing we own the believers or Church to be the body of Christ, and plead for ano­ther body of Christ distinct from them]’ it's plain without contradiction that you deny the personall body of Christ to be, and abide in the Heavens; and to deny the man Jesus to be the Object of the believers faith, and why shamed you to speak out this so broadly at the dispute? Was you then more bashfull, and are since grown more audacious and impudent.

W. and F. They say, ‘It's grosse confusion to say, that believers are Mem­bers of Christs flesh and bones, and then to say, they are not flesh of his flesh, and bone of his bone: as if Christ had two bodies of flesh and bone, one of which the saints are not Members, when the Apostle says as much as they were flesh of his flesh, and bone of his bone, in saying no man ever hated his own flesh, but nourisheth it and cherisheth it; even as the Lord the Church: for we are Members of his body of his flesh and of his bones, Ephes. 3 30.

Rep. Surely the grosse confusion is clearly in themselves here as is easie to demonstrate. 1. They bely us, in saying of us that we said, what we said not, viz. That believers are Members of Christs flesh and bones; we said, the Apostles preached that the believers are Members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones, neither the Greek nor the Latine (as G. W. At least as to the Latine may know) will bear that construction, Members of his flesh and bones, but Mem­bers of his body; of (that is out of) his flesh, and of (or out of) his bones, ex carne ejus & ex ossibus ejus. 2. Is his Church flesh and bones? said they not above that a body of flesh and bones, cannot be said to be in the Heavens, but if be­lievers be a body of flesh and bones, as they are if they be flesh of his flesh, and bone of his bones, must they not needs be then a body of flesh and bones in Heaven; seeing they grant his body to be in the heavens, yea to be the fulness of God that filleth all in all both in Heaven and earth; is flesh and bones the ful­ness of God filling all in all both in Heaven and earth? 'Tis true that the Church consists of Members, that each of them have personall heads and bodies of flesh and bones as men, but are they flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone? Is our flesh of Christs flesh, and our bone of Christs bone? How then hath not Christ flesh and bone of his own, distinct from the body his Church, if our flesh be flesh of his flesh, and our bone be bone of his bone? Doth not that phrase speak plainly of flesh and bones of his, distinct from the Church, which they say too is flesh and bone; is not the confusion then in these men that deny Christ to have a body of flesh and bones distinct from his Church, and then to say his Church is flesh of his flesh, and bone of his bone, and so to imply a di­stinction between the flesh and bone that the Church is, and the flesh and bone that it is of? As was between Evabs flesh and bone, and the fleshand bones of Adam [Page] out of which she was made flesh and bone; for to her that phrase is applyed, Gen. 2. 23. 3. Whereas they put this consequent upon us that we by denying their addition to the Scriptures make it as if Christ had two bodies of flesh and bones, one of which the saints are not Members, see if this follow not clearly from their addition? For whereas the Apostle says we are of his flesh and of his bones, and so implies but one body of flesh and bones out of which the Church is; now these to that body of flesh and bones which is Christs, make a second, which is the Church, while they say the Church is flesh and bone too, flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone; even as Adams body of flesh and bone out of which Eve was made, and Eves that was made out of it were two bodies of flesh and bone. 4. Do they not bely the Apostle too when they say he saith as much as they were flesh of his flesh, and bone of his bone; in his saying, no man ever hated his own flesh▪ but loveth it and cherisheth it; even as the Lord the Church, for we are Members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones? Is it not clear that the former part speaks of men loving their own naturall bodies cal­led their flesh, but the latter part speaks of Christ cherishing his Church, but calls not the Church his flesh and bone, but Members of his body; of (that is out of) his flesh, and of (that is out of) his bone, implying that the Church is sprung and framed to him to be his Church out of his flesh and bone, that is, from his incarnation, suffering, and the things done in and by his being made flesh, had not he had a body prepared for him, even a body of flesh and bones in which he did the Fathers will, he could have had no Church; we are the fruit of the travaile of his soul, Isa. 53. 10.

We noted that this opinion of the Quakers denying that body, (viz. That body personall, that body that had flesh and bones, and in which Christ suffer­ed) to be glorified, doth at once turn up by the roots all the faith of Christs ap­pearing in the Heavens for us, &c. ‘To this they Object again our confusion and falshood, because we said before of the Quakers, that the same body that suffered was glorified at Gods right hand in Heaven, and now charge them with denying that body to be glorified.’

Rep. Mind here reader their subtilty, how they hide themselves in aequivo­cations, when we say they deny that body to be glorified; it is clear that we speak of his body personall, the body of his flesh: and doth it not plainly ap­pear that they deny that to be glorified when they deny any body of Christ remaining but his Church? But now when they said the same body that suf­fered was glorified, we told you before they meant but his Church, and so that body they that confess to suffer and to be glorified is not the same that we say they deny to be glorified, and to that purpose both in a letter we had from them, and in their book they tell us of the seed, Christ suffering some­where and in some, and reigning or glorified in others; were there ever such juglers and Jesuites as these we deal against, that are full of lies and confusion, and wind about into many shapes and aequivocations to deceive the simple, but cannot be ashamed of them, they are so hardened?

They plainly shew their corrupt and wicked judgements about the coming [Page] of the Lord from Heaven, 1 Thes. 4. 15. While they say. W. and F. ‘we blind­ly put it afar off, and that that coming of Christ the saints who were then alive (namely when the Apostles wrote) remained unto it.’

Rep. So then by that the Lord himself descended from Heaven with a shout and with the voice of the Archangell, and with the Trump of God, and the dead in Christ were raised before Paul and the believing Thessalonians dyed, and so they did not sleep as to their bodies, but were suddenly changed and taken up to meet the Lord in the ayre, and to be ever with him; then thats false that Hystories relate of Pauls being beheaded at Rome, and in vain do men look for Christs coming to raise the dead, for thats past and gone before the Apostles age was past. The resurrection of the just is over then, for that was to be at Christs coming, and why should any preach now, and believe in Christ now, when there is nothing of hope now to be looked for? Are not these sufficiently grosse and wicked in their judgement, that dare take away the hope of Christs glorious appearance, and the being for ever with Christ to be by any man now expected▪ But it's strange Christ should come, the elements melt with servent heate, the trumpet sound, the dead in Christ be raised, and no man hear, or speak, or write of it in any age, except [in haereticorum cubiculis] as Tertullian speaks, or as I may rather say, in the fancies of Hereticks, but alas! Reader, these men turn all these things into fables, perverting the whole Scripture to their corrupt sense; by dead in Christ meaning but the spiritually dead in some fancied death; sleeping in him, and the trumpet and shout, and resurrection all Allegoricall; and so they thereby deny and undermine both the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the judgement spoken of in the Scri­ptures. Tohelp thee against them, whereas they urge [we that are alive and remain to the coming of the Lord] as if they that then lived should certainly live and abide till his coming, know that the Apostle writ of it as a thing that is hidden as to the day and time of it; and writes of the Church as of our body in all ages, and so by, we that live and remain, means but those of us that shall be found living, that is, of the company of believers, with whom they numbred themselves, because then living; & possibly not knowing but they might have lived to his coming. But it no more implies that the believers of that age should live and remain till the coming of Christ, then that they who lived in Davids age, or when the Psalms were penned lived in Moses age many hundreds of years be­fore him, and rejoyced in the Lord when Israel went over the sea; because it's said Psal. 66. 6. They went through the flood on foot, there did we rejoyce in him; or that the people in Hoseas time were born and lived in Jacobs time, because in Hos. 12. 4. Speaking of Jacobs wrestling with God in Bethell, he saies, he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us. This one passage of theirs, were there no more, is sufficient to discover their horrible corruption and reprobacy of mind in the things of Christ, but more of the like corruption they shew about the Heavens and Christs coming from thence in what follows; for to that in Philip. 3. 20, 21. Where it is said our conversation is in heaven, from whence also we look for the Saviour the Lord Jesus, they say,

[Page 41] W. and F. They say, so their conversation was in Heaven, and there they looked for the Saviour.

Reply. See here one perversion, the Apostle sayes they looked for a Saviour from thence to come, namely from Heaven: and these say where we look for a Saviour, no doubt but had we said so as they say of the Apostles, they would have reproached us, and said, see these men have their Saviour to look for yet, (as in a letter to us, to our saying that the Saints seek their pardon and heal­ing in Christ they retort, that we accuse them of having their pardon to seek) so wicked are they; But of the Apostles looking for Christ from Heaven, they take no notice, Its no part of their Faith or Expectation it seems, they adde,

W. and F. They did not say their conversation was at a distance far off above the Clouds where we (they say) look for a Saviour like our selves, but that he hath no blood in his body as we Imagine.

Answ. They said their conversation was in Heaven, and Heaven is above the Clouds, and Gods Glory is in and above the Heavens, and in that Glory Christ is, and where Christ is there was their conversation; as they Exhort also to set our affections upon things above where Christ is also at the right hand of God, he sayes not upon things within your selves, but upon things above, Col. 3. 2, 3. But ye may see these men deny the God above, and say in effect with the false Prophets, Jer. 23. 21. God is a God at hand but not a God a far off. But as they said not their conversation was above the Clouds, in those very words, though they said it in effect; So neither said they their conversation was in themselves and thence they lookt for a Saviour, their reproach of us [that we look for a Saviour like our selves (but that he hath no blood in his body as we imagine) whom they say they desire not the knowledge of, and that our faith which is not grounded in Christs appearing in us is to be turned up by the roots] falls heavy upon themselves, for all people may see their wickednesse therein; for, 1. They bely us in say­ing we look for a Saviour like our selves; for we do not judge him like our selves, but hope that we who are very unlike unto Him being in vile bodies, shall be like him at his appearance, When he shall change our vile body that it might be fashioned into the likenesse of his Glorious Body, which Glorious Body we think not like ours, for then need not ours to be changed that they may be fashioned into the likenesse of his if they were in its likenesse already. 2. That his Body hath no blood in it, we say not, but leave it as a secret, what is the form and manner and glory of his Glorious and Glorified Body, we say that that body in which Christ shewed Flesh and Bones after the Resur­rection, and whose blood was shed out is ascended and is in Heaven Glorified, and for him in that Glorious Body, we with the Apostles look for him from Heaven. But, 3. Here they clearly say they desire not the knowledge of that Saviour we look for from Heaven, and so are out of the Apostles faith and hope, and like the wicked ones that said they desired not the knowledge of Gods wayes, Job 21. 14. 4. When they say, that Faith which is not grounded in Christs ap­pearance in us is to be turned up by the Roots; Do they not plainly imply that the Apo­stles faith is to be turned up by the roots, (indeed we see how broadly they endea­vour it) for though the knowledge of Christ was given into the Apostles hearts, and his Life and Vertues appeared in their Doctrine and walking, yet their [Page 42] faith was not grounded in his appearing in them, but in what Christ had done in his death and sufferings for them, and in his appearing at Gods right hand for them, see else, Rom. 8. 33, 34. Their faith stood in this that Christ had died, yea rather was risen again, and is at Gods right hand making intercession for them; but we may see how far these mens faith differs from the Apostles, that make no account of Christs appearing in the flesh, or in his Glorious Body hereafter; So as to have their faith grounded therein but only in an imaginary appearance of Christ in them, for so it must be, and no better, that hath not for the ground of it Christ appearing in the flesh for them before they were born, and so not in them, and his appearing in Heaven for them, and in Glory to them at the end of the World; The faith of which they imply must be turned up by the Roots; for mind what they oppose that saying to, We said that at once they turne up by the Roots all the faith of Christs appearing in the presence of God to Mediate for us and make intercession, which the Apostles and Primitive believers had so much of their hope and rejoycing in, as also all the Faith and Hope of his Glorious descending and coming again to change our vile bodies, &c. and to all the Kingdome and Glory to be revealed to and enjoyed by the Saints; Now they taking no notice of Christs appearing in Heaven to Mediate for us, and having spoken of the Faith of Christs coming again from Heaven as a thing past in Pauls age, say that our faith which is not grounded in Christs appearing in us (which implyes all the points before men­tioned, for Christs appearing in us cannot be the ground of the faith of those things but only a fruit and confirmation of it) is to be turned up by the Roots, so that they deny the fundamental Doctrines to establish only their imaginary conceits. But remember Reader that they said before that the Apostles were the true Apostles, and so they be but false Apostles and Prophets, in their imaginations.

3. We charged them as Reprobate concerning the faith about the Resurrecti­on of the dead, and thou mayest see Reader what good ground we had so to do by what they have said now about it; For if Christs coming, at which the dead are to be raised, was while the Saints in the Apostles time alive remained, then is the Resurrection they speak of past, so that there needs no further doubt of their corruption about that. We charged them with saying that the same bo­dy that dies shall not be raised again, and in their Book they plead stifly for it.

W. and F. We change George Foxes words, for he said that which is raised is a spiritual body, and that that which is raised was dead; Well how did we represent them? Why thus, that that which should rise is a spiritual body, and that that which died is or shall be raised. It seemes we did not apprehend his errour fully enough, we asked about a Resurrection to be made hereafter, and he subtilly answered about a Resurrection past, for where else is the change, except that we say should be raised; Where he said that which is raised, we said that which dyed is or shall be raised, and he said (they say) that which is raised was dead, but whereas we said they might mean thereby a dead spirit dead in sin, they do not at all take notice of it to deny it; See then what corrupt Equivoca­ters we have to deal with, that when we ask about the body to be raised, they answered about something raised that was dead, but that the body that dyeth [Page 43] shall be raised they will not say yea, they deny it; And are they not then clearly enough Reprobate concerning the Faith of it, its probable that by the spirituall body that is raised, they mean nothing else but the Church, the bo­dy of Christ which was dead in sins and trespasses before quickened by him, as Ephes. 2. 4, 5. and if they say no, we challenge them to answer what that is that was dead & is raised a Spiritual Body, if not the Church of Christ as being in the World in its several ages; They tell how they put the fool upon us (its I kely for believing the Resurrection of the Body which the Apostles put upon the denyers of it, and so rather appertains to them) how they answered us plainly, and we would not be satisfied that it is sown a natural body and is raised a Spiritual body.

Reply, But yet when we asked what that [it] was that was sown a natural body and should be raised a Spiritual body, they would never tell us, and how then should we be satisfied with their Answer.

They say, The Apostles doth not say that that which dies or is sown, which is earth­ly, shall rise.

Judge Reader, Saith not the Apostle it is sown a Natural body, it is raised a Spiritual body, and this corruptible shall put on in-corruption, now is not the Naturall body an earthly body, and is not this corruptible an earthly body? Is not that an Earthly body that is laid in the grave and is corrupti­ble? And if this corruptible put on incorruption, and this mortal (and is not that the Earthly body?) put on immortality, then doth not this cor­ruptible and Earthly body rise incorruptible, and this mortal rise immortal? Is it not as plain as the Sun? If it be this mortal that is now mortal that puts on Immortality, then its this that is now mortal that shall be in the Resurrection Immortal, and if this thats now mortal shall put on Immor­tality, then this thats now mortal is not to be Annihilated and lost; for how can that that is not put on any thing, much lesse Immortality? The mortal shall loose its Mortality, and put on Immortality; and the corruptible shall loose cor­ruption and corruptibility, and put on incorruption; but the corruptible it self and the mortal it self shall not be lost, but rise Incorruptible and Immortal.

They say, They told us that which thou sowest is not quickened except it dye, and that which thou sowest thou sowest not that body which shall be (mark, thou sowest not that body that shall be) but bare graine, &c. Which (they say) is contrary to what we affirmed that the same body (namely) that dies or is sowen in the Earth shall rise again.

Reply. Now Reader, minde again how they are clearly out, mind the Apo­stles words again, and mind ours, and see if they be contrary, the Apostle says not that which thou sowest shall never be quickened, but be utterly abo­lished, but, that which thou sowest is not quickened except it die; implying that if it die, it (even that thou sowest) shall be quickened; and doth not that agree with our saying, that the body that dies shall be raised again, even that thou sowest if it die it shall be quickened, but not unless it die; it is not one thing that dies and another that is quickened, but the same that being sown dies is quickened being dead; This confirmes and is not contrary to our say­ing; Again the Apostle saith, and that which thou sowest thou sowest not that [Page 44] body that shall be, but bare grain, but then he adds (which they leave out) but God giveth it (mark it, the same that thou sowest) a body as pleaseth him, to every Seed his own body; the Apostle sayes, that men sow not the same body that shall be, nor say we that men sow or yeeld up to death the same body that shall be, that is immortal incorruptible bodies, for so they shall be, but its this mortal body they sow that shall be immortal, and this corruptible body that shall put on incorruption and be incorruptible, the same that men sow riseth, but they sow it not the same that it shall rise; the Apostles instance clears it evidently, for saith he, thou sowest bare grain, it may chance of Wheat, &c. signifying that the body sown, is not that it shall be in respect of form or condition; Therefore he saith, bare grain, as if he should say thou sowest it not in stalk, and blade, and ear, and kirnel in the husk, as it shall be, but bare grain, and in that thou sowest not that body that shall be, but he saith, not that body thou sowest shall not come again in another manner of body, but implies the contrary, in saying God giveth it (what it, if not that it thou sow­est? For G. W. knows that the word it is a relative, and hath reference to that that went before) a body as pleaseth him, that is such a body as to its form as pleaseth him, to every seed its own body, that which is sutable to it self, and of the same nature which it was, though not the same in manner and form, and this agrees with, and is not contrary to what we further said, viz. it is the same that is sown which is raised, though it rise not the same (in the same qua­lity and condition) as its the same bare grain that is sown, that comes up or is quickened if it die, but it comes not up the same bare grain, but in the body that God gives it, for the body is changed as to its quality and form, so its sown a mortal body, and the same mortal body that is sown shall rise, but it shall not rise the same mortal body, it shall rise immortal, can any thing be more plain? We say the same body that dies or is sown in the earth shall rise, but we say not that its the same body that dies or is sown in the earth, that it shall be when it rises, And therefore say not any thing contrary to the Apo­stles saying; We say not mens bodies die immortal or spiritual as they shall rise, But we say the bodies that are sown mortal and natural, shall rise immor­tal and spiritual.

To Thomas Moors saying, that the same Kirnel of Wheat, rises up again in the blade; They say, It is known that the same Kirnel doth not rise, but another bo­dy or Ear of corn grows forth in the nature of that which is sown.

But we appeal to sense, whether it be not that Kirnel that is sown that is changed into the Blade, that springs out and grows into blade, ear, and corn, as that other body or ear of corn grows forth in the nature of that which is sown, so it springs out of that which is sown too, and that was sown is quick­ened, and grows into that which comes up and not another thing, that being annihilated.

They talk of Riddles (but of their own imagination) of (conceited) Seeds and the nature of them, and their center and habitation, like those conceits of Jacob Behmen, which are all Aliens to the Apostles discourse, which we pass by as things frivolous and impertinent, being nothing but carnal imaginations of men destitute of the Truth, and that believe not Gods Doctrine; And as for [Page 45] what they say of the last Trumpet in the last day, and the Resurrection of just and unjust; We see their corruption about it in what was said by them above, viz. that the Saints in Pauls time remained till that coming of Christ, which is to be with a shout, and with the Voice of the Arch-angel and Trump of God, by which they know that though they use the Scripture Words of the last Trumpet Sounding, and Resurrection of the just and unjust, and that many that sleep in the Dust of the Earth shall rise and shall come forth, some to the Resurrection of Life, and some to the Resurrection of Condemnation, every one to be rewarded accord­ing to his Works, and that John said, the Sea gave up the dead in it, and Death and Hell delivered up that which were in them, and they were judged, &c. Yet we know by what is already said by them in their Book, and by their Questions to us, in which they propound; Shall the Souls of the wicked which are in Hell and have received their judgement come forth again to receive a second judgement, that they are void of the faith of those sayings, and turn them into delusions of their own or other mens inventions, for what shall rise that sleeps in the dust (or that is in the graves, as in Job. 5. 28, 29) if not the Body that was laid into it which they say rises not? And what shall Hell and death give up, if Hell give up no souls in it as their question implies, and death give up no­thing in it? For what should it give up? Is it the Spirit that dies not with the body? but when the body goes to dust it returns to God; but sure the Apo­stle sayes its the Body that is now vile, that shall be changed, that it (mark that it and its a Relative, and relates to that before it, which there is the vile body, that it) may be fashioned into the likenesse of his Glorious Body which they believe not; and therefore what but deceit and equivocation is this in their Hearts, while they quote the Words of Scripture, that say, every man shall be Judged according to his Works, if neither the Soul nor the Body come up a­gain, what of the man is that that shall be judged? Let all judge. And this (they say) is an answer about the Resurrection, but such an answer as clearly denies it, and turns it up by the roots, as not grounded in their conceited ap­pearance of Christ in them.

W. and F. They say to their question to Thomas Moore, What was the Seed of which the Apostle said, God giveth it a body as it pleaseth him; He answered, That the Seed was the Body that dies or is laid in the Ground, which he pleaded for the rising of.

Reply, Surely ye wrong T. M. for the Seed there spoken of is the Grain or Seed mentioned which men sow, and which the Apostle mentions by way of illustration, T. M. might say, that which answers to the seed in the Compari­son is the Body of man, but see here that by their faulting T. M. as pleading for the Resurrection of the Body that dies, they pleadTertul. de Resur, carnis, & praescripta adversus, Heretic▪ not for it, but deny it. See then if they be not out of the Apostles Creed, and out of the Faith of all the Primitive times, who believed and pleaded for the Resurrection of the body.

But they say to this it was replyed, That then every man must rise with two bo­dies, if that body that is Terrestrial must arise and have another body given it, but here­in his ignorance (say they) was seen.

Reply, Nay rather your Sophistry appears; For is that seed that men sow a Body [Page 46] or not? I suppose sense will prove it is, for it may be seen, felt, tasted, &c. Well then, doth God give it a body or no? the Apostle saith yes; Hath the Seed then two bodies, one that is quickened it dying, and another that comes up, surely no; but his giving it a body is his changing it into another body, that is a body of another form, so is the Resurrection of the dead;Phillip. 3. 20, 21. It is sown a natural body, God changes and fashions it (mark it) into a Spiritual body, thats his giving it a body; Even as when the Potter was fashioning a Vessel upon the Wheel, and it was broken, he made it into another Vessel; was there two vessels then, one that was made into ano­ther, and another into which it was made? let reason judge; tis another body made of the same, this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruptible shall put on incorruption.

But they say of us, We have both confuted our selves, because in our Post-script we say, the Apostle implies plainly, that the raised body in the Resurrection shall not be flesh and blood; Whence they ask, How is it they have pleaded so much for the same that dies to rise again, which is a body of flesh and blood, when the raised body is not flesh and blood (they say) whence they conclude us much shut up in Baby­lon, &c.

Reply. Reader, mind it again, and see whether we or they be in confusion, we said the same body should rise, but it shall not rise the same, we say it shall not rise flesh and blood, a carnal natural body follows it; Therefore it was not flesh and blood, a carnal natural body when it dyed, or that the same that was so shall not rise a spiritual body; judge of it by this, men sow bare grain, the bare grain they sow dying is quickened and comes up, but the grain they sow comes not up bare grain when it comes up; this mortal body that dies shall rise, but it shall not rise a mortal body: sure these men have the imperfection of irra­tionality, if they cannot understand this difference.

We accused John Whitehead for arguing against the Redemption of the body to be expected after death, and for saying the Apostles had it before death.

W. and F. Here they fault us for not expecting the Redemption of the body, and our discharge from sin till after death; because we said also, p. 10. that the nature of man in the Resurrection is discharged of sin, which we spake of Christ made under sin, and Law, and death for us, and in the Resurrection, namely his resurrection discharged thereof, sayes that any thing of our not being discharg­ed of sin (as to forgivenesse of it) till the resurrection? What grosse abuses be these?

But they plead for John Whiteheads corrupt sayings, reproaching our W. and F. expecting the redemption of the body after death as contrary to the Saints expecta­tions, for they waited and groaned (they say) for the redemption of the body from un­der corruption, when they were upon earth, and the creature it self was to be brought into the Glorious Liberty of the Sons of God, which state was witnessed by as many as were led by the Spirit of God who were sanctified throughout in body, in Soul and in Spirit, and put not redemption afar off till after death, as they say we do.

Reply. Oh monstrous blind corrupted stuffe, one would think that all men that read these things should abhor to listen to these Preachers; for first [Page 47] they bely the Saints in saying the expecting the redemption of the body after Death is contrary to the Saints expectation; did not the Saints expect that after death, their bodies should be raised incorruptible? Did they look to have their bodies immortal, incorruptible, powerful and glorious before their death? read 1 Cor. 15. and see if these men be not lyars in grain, and wofully cor­rupt like Hymeneus and Phyletus, that said the resurrection was past, Phil. 3. 20. 21. 2 Tim. 2 17. 18. 2. They aequivocate in saying they waited and groaned for the redemption of the body from under corruption when they were upon earth, in one sense it is true, and in another false; It is true, while they were upon earth, they exercised their patient waiting and expectation, but false that they expected that the redemption of their body should be proved by them before death, the redemption of it, I say, either from all the being of sin therein, or to the being of sin in it till death, we spake before and proved it from, Ps. 143. 2. for they say its sown in corruption and raised in incorruption, if it be sown in corruption, when it dies then it is not redeemed from corruption before it die, 3. That the Creature it self is to be brought into the liberty of the Sons of God is true, but that that state was witnessed, that is proved by as many as were led by the Spirit of God is false, for the Apostle was led by the Spirit of God, and so are the Sons of God; but if they witnessed the Creatures being brought into the liberty of the Sons of God and the Redemption of their bodies from corruption, how sayes he then that the earnest expectation of the crea­ture waits for the manifestation of the Sons of God, seeing what they waited for they did not see and prove, and so could not witnesse it, for if they see it, why did they yet wait for it? Rom. 8. 14. 19, 20. 23, 24, 25. Why say they the creature it self shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption, and not ra­ther, is delivered from it? yea, and why say they expresly, we that have the first fruits of the spirit, even we our selves groaning within our selves, wait for the Adoption, the Redemption of the body, for we are saved by hope, &c. Were not the Apostles led by the Spirit that had the first fruits of it? And Paul sayes, The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the Law of Sin and Death, Rom. 8. 2. And were not they sanctified throughout, in Body, Soul and Spirit, at least in good measure? And yet we see they did but wait for the Redemption of the Body, they did not witnesse it as a thing which they had, nor do we ever find them say they had it, but they confound the Redemption of the body, with the freeing it from sin in it, as G. W. in his late dispute, with J. H. declared him­self, alleadging Rom. 8. 2. his being set free from the Law of sin and death, for proof that Paul witnessed the Redemption of the body, when as Paul had that before he said he waited for this, nor doth it prove any absolute freedom from the being of sin in his body, Rom. 7. 26. shews;

So see all men how corrupt the Quakers be, and how miserable out of the Apostles Doctrine and Faith.

And yet fourthly, We say not that either we or the Apostles put Redemption far off, till after death; It is God that hath Ordered the Redemption there spoken of to be after Death, that we might first bear the image of the Earthly in a [Page 48] vile Mortal body before we bear the Image of the Heavenly in a Glorious body, it was their part and so is ours to groan after it and waite for it till the time of Christs descending from Heaven, to change our vile body that it may be fashioned into the likenesse of his Glorious body; was ever any mans body re­deemed from Corruption and Death and Rottennesse before it died? They may as well contradict the Apostle, and say that which thou sowest is quicken­ed before it die. All men may see these be deniers of the Resurrection preach­ed by the Apostles, and therefore Teachers that are to be accounted accursed, Gal. 1. 8.

Note by the way, Reader, that these men never attempt to answer our Question propounded to them at both our former disputes, whether that that shall rise a Spiritual body was ever dead; surely they by their shunning it do declare that they do not believe it, and therefore by consequence deny the Resurrection of the dead.

To our charge of them with Antichristianisme in intimately not confessing Christ come in the flesh, while they make not the knowledge of him as so come the knowledge to Eternal Salvation, but the knowledge of him after the Spi­rit as he was before the World was, in Ed. Burroughs declaration of their faith, which charge we managed against them, and they could not make good their faith or prove it by Scriptures though they assayed it from 2 Cor. 5. 16. 1 John. 1. 1, 2, 3. And therefore stood concluded Antichristians. To this upon further thoughts they give now this answer. That,

W. and F. To know Christ as he is the Power of God, is to know him in the Spirit as he was before the World was, and that we trust in the living God who is the Saviour of all men, especially of them that believe, but as he is the living God he was before the World was.

Reply. But this too is false and fallacious, for Christ is the Power of God as he was Crucified, 1 Cor. 1. 22, 23, 24. and to know him so is not to know him as he was before the World was, he was the Power of God before the World was; but to know him as he was the Power of God before the World was, is not the knowledge of him to Salvation. To assert it, is not to confesse but vertually to deny him as come in the Flesh. The like we may say of the other phrase, he is not the living God the Saviour of all men as he was before the World was, for he is the living God now in the Manhood or as Immanuel God with us; as made flesh and dead and raised, but so he was not before the World was, and as not the living God in mans Nature, or Incarnate, or pro­mised so to be, & as such considered or as therethrough made manifest, he is not since the fall the object of our knowledge to Salvation; and though they say they do not deny his knowledge as in his flesh, that is an Equivocal deceitful speech, its evident what they say puts no necessity or grants not the sufficiency of the knowledge of him as come in the Flesh, and so doth not confesse or magnifie it, but exalts as sufficient that that was before and without it.

W. and F. They say, When we can prove nothing against them (and yet we have made good all our charge against them hitherto) we have invented these lies against them, that they may and can in their canting Language say he is manifest in England, and is persecuted and dies and rises as well as in Judea and Jerusalem; and that however they [Page 49] make no thing of his being born, suffering and dying in the flesh; and there they say, they utterly deny us and charge us as forgers of lies, for they never use they say, such canting Language against Christ, but own his sufferings in Judea and Jerusalem as he was a true offering and propitiation for the sins of the whole World, whose sufferings were effec­tual both for the pacifying the Fathers wrath, and for the reconciling the whole World, as is witnessed by them who receive the power of his life which was manifested through Death to them that truly believed through Christs sufferings.

Reply. To which we say, that they use such canting Language we call for witness John Toldervy in his Foot out of the Snare, where he tells of the Quakers turning all the Scriptures into Allegories, as about Adam, Moses, Christ, Jerusalem, &c. Which neither James Naylor in his Book against him contradicts or faults him for, nor doth himself retract in what he write by way of submission to James Naylor, in his Book called the Naked Truth, yea and in a Letter to us George Whitehead saith, that the Blood of Christ suffereth (mark suffereth) with Christ where he suffers (marke its in the Present Tense) for the prisoner which by the Blood of the Covenant is to be brought out of the Pit which can hold no water. Now if Judea and Jerusalem be in men, and Christ suffereth yet for the prisoner to be brought out by the Blood of the Co­venant, cannot they say Judea and Jerusalem are in England as well as any where? Yea said they, not above that that our faith is to be rooted out, that is not grounded in Christs appearing in us? Now if their faith be grounded in Christs appearing in them, must it not be in Christs dying and crucifying in them if at all in his dying? But indeed it is not grounded in his dying at all if it be in the knowledge of him as he was before the World was, and so to what purpose say they, or what do they but cant when they say that they own his sufferings in Judea and Jerusalem as he was a true offering and propitiation for the sins of the whole World, and that his sufferings were effectual both for the pacifying the Fathers wrath, and reconcil­ing the whole World? Let them tell us when they write again, where that Judea and Jerusalem is, whether it be not in them yea or nay, by his sufferings at which they are reconciled to God, how do they own any sufferings in Judea else? Not as any thing their faith is grounded in, unless they were sufferings in them, and he appeared in them in those sufferings, and so the Judea and Jerusalem where he ap­peared and suffered be in them, seeing they root up the Faith otherwise grounded; and how was his suffering in Judea without, or any sufferings past effectual for the reconciling the whole World or pacifying the Fathers wrath; and yet Christ suffer­eth for the Prisoner to be brought forth by the blood of the Covenant? which prisoner we shall finde by their sayings afterward to be Christ too; and what need of the owning him as so suffering, if it be not the knowledge of him to Salva­tion, but as he was before the World was when he suffered not? They that con­sult with their Books may see but canting in all this, for if we may believe what is printed as their Answer to the Cambridge Queries, they justified Richard Hubberthorns saying, that Christs coming in the flesh was but a figure (which since I writ the former expressions I see not disowned but justified by G. W. in his answer to them with one or two filly frivolous pleas, as how could Christ else be said to have been transfigured? And did not he (namely the Scholer he answers) never read that Christ is the figure, his Fathers substance, &c? Which may serve to cheat silly men and women, but if Christs coming was but a figure, then not the true Pacifier of [Page 50] Gods wrath nor reconciliation of the World, they also falsifie our saying in the last clause recited, for it was not as they repeat it but thus; however in the fore­said expression they make nothing of his being born, suffering, &c. Those words [in the foresaid expression] are subtilly left out the better to hide their deceit in faulting us, from those that have not their Books to compare their sayings with; and we appeal to all whether if the knowing him after the Spirit as he was before the World was be the knowledge of him to Eternal Salvation, they therein make anything to purpose of all his dying and suffering in the flesh; Seeing those things were not done or suffered by him in the Spirit, as he was before the World was.

W. and F. p. 13. They charge us with belying Geo. Whitehead, in saying he alleadged 2 Cor. 5. 16. To prove that the Apostles did not know Christ as one that suffered in the flesh, or to be in the flesh; but it was brought (they say) against our knowledge which is Carnal, and stands in Immagination, and neither truly know Christ as he was in the flesh nor after the Spirit, but contend against the knowing him as he was before the World was.

Reply. That we did not bely G. W. but they us, the repeating those things that passed will evidence, we urged that Ed. Burroughs foresaid passage confest not Christ come in the flesh, and G. W. to justifie his saying, alleadged that the Apostles thence­forth knew Christ no more after the flesh; which to what purpose could it be if not to insinuate that to know him after the Spirit, is to know him as he was before the World was, and to know him otherwise, viz. as one that since the World, came and suffered in the flesh for men, is to know him after the flesh? Why else was he beaten from it and waved it upon our clearing it that it was the Apostles knowing him as one that dyed for all that led him to let go that knowledge of him after the flesh there denyed by him, and therefore that knowing him as one that died, was not the knowledge after the flesh? Nor were we declaring or speaking about our knowing Christ one way or other, when he brought it but against the knowledge they plead for, as the knowledge to Salvation; false it is therefore that he brought it against our knowledge of him, which we matter not his reproaching of, who is grievously and notoriously erroneous as hath been seen, yea doth not his distinction here, in his reproaching our knowing Christ (as he was in the flesh or after the Spirit) plainly imply that the knowing Christ as he was in the flesh, is not with them the knowing him after the Spirit, & so that the knowing him after the Spirit is not the knowing him as come in the flesh, contrary to 1 John 4. 2. by which they are discovered to be Antichristians, if they judge them the same, why do they dis­tinguish and divide them? It plainly implyes that the Spirit after which they know him, doth not teach them to know him as he was in the flesh, yea its plain too, that by that phrase of knowing him after the Spirit, (in E. [...]s. Book) is meant a distinct knowledge from the knowing him as come in the flesh, and so makes that empty and lifeless seeing here they distinguish them as different, so that their own words condemn them to them that are intelligent; And whereas they say (we contend against knowing him as he was before the World was, and neglect Christ, and so against the knowledge of the Glory of God as a knowledge to Salvation.) Herein also are they false, for it is not against the knowledge of Christ as before the world was that we contend, but against their making that knowledge the knowledge of him to Salvation, nor said we we do neglect Christ, though who can so worthily prize and [Page 51] serve him as in nothing to be guilty of the neglect of him? We shall, God ina­bling, be more industrious to mind him & manage his truth against these mens errors then we have formerly been; much lesse is there either truth or knowledge but Ig­norance and Confusion, in their making the knowledge of Christ as before the World was the knowledge of the Glory of God, for the Glory of God is his great goodnesse manifested, and brightly shining forth in Christ, sent forth and crucified for us, Exod. 33. 18. 2 Cor. 4. 4. 6. It is the light of the knowledge of the Glory of God that is in the Face of Jesus Christ, as represented in the Gospel, which preaches him crucified; And so that Glory could not be known as he was before the World was, for God was manifested in the flesh, and not as before and with­out the flesh, or respect to it so as to our Salvation; Besides there is fallacy in saying (the Spirit and Power in which the Apostles knew Christ, and one another was before the World was) for its one thing to say the Spirit and Power was before the World was, and the object now manifested, as now manifested by that Spirit and Power the knowledge whereof is to Salvation, is Christ as he was before the world was, and not as he was made flesh since the world.

Having made good these our charges of them, we shall be briefer in the rest.

P. 13. Our distinction of the condition of the Nature of man, as it is in the believer from what it is in Christ, they charge with making it in the believers to be seperate from Christ.

To which we say, we believe and say with the Apostle, that the believer while in the body is absent from Christ, but not seperate; Yet we say his nature as in him, is distinct from it as in Christ, because in the believer its subject to infirmity, and bodily Death, in Christ it is not, they deny the sinfulnesse of Nature, (commonly called Original sin) contrary to Psal. 51. 5. Job. 14. 4. Rom. 5. 12. 18, 19. And say, (that to make the believer to have two Heritages, a Natural and a Spiritual, is an old delusion of the Priests) it seems then believers have no such Heritage as bodily weaknesse or Death, or if they have it, its a Spiritual and not a Natural Heritage to them, is it? But we believe, and so do all that know anything, that the believer by Nature and after the Flesh, as a man inherits one thing, and after the Spirit as a believer another; After the flesh and by Nature the Image of the Earthly, and after the Spirit, the Image of the Heavenly; was not Paul one of the Priests that here they reproach, for he taught such a distinction in 1 Cor. 15. 44. 46. 49. There is a Natural Body, and there is a Spiritual Body, is the believer heir to both by Nature, or to neither of them Naturally? Let them answer directly, if they reproach that distinction which holds also in sin and Righteousnesse, if the Priest Paul may be believed, Rom. 7. 24. 25. For in his flesh he found the law of sin and had sin dwelling; we suppose that was no Spiritual heritage, and in his mind the Law of God, we suppose that was not Natural, and do not these men imply the same they condemn, in saying the Believers witnesse a better Heritage then sin in their Nature? Do they not imply that they witnesse that too, though a better besides? However may not believers witnesse that, and yet witnesse also a better then that as Paul did? Paul said in him, in his flesh dwelt no good thing, whence had he that Heritage? and yet in his minde was the Law of God, was not that a better Heritage?

W. and F. p. 14. To our charging them with denying the humanity of Christ, they say changing our phrase, They never denyed the Man Christ.

[Page 52] Reply. If they deny him now to be a man, and to have a humane Body, then they deny his humanity, which was it we charged them with, and that they deny his having an humane body or any other then his Church, is evident by what they said page 8. besides the Body his Church they grant him to have nothing more of man then he had before the World was, and his Body the Church makes him not a per­sonal man, as for eating his flesh, whats that? His Flesh too must be something of his Body the Church, except he hath two Fleshes on his Body, and another of it; they may grant he was a man and had Flesh, but that proves not that they believe his humanity now to abide.

We said, Christ is not really and personally in the believers as he is in Heaven, a­gainst that they pretend to argue, but leaving out the word personal, they plead for a real presence onely, and so plead not against our saying, for we add the word per­sonal, to distinguish it from all other manner of real presences, a real presence we deny not by faith in and with the believers, though such a real and personal presence as is in Heaven we do; Here then they Fight with their own sha­dow.

How T. M. owned the Blood of Christ to be the foundation of faith, may be seen in the Answer to what they noted in their Epistle as his Principles. It seems it is not the foundation of their Faith, and so their faith is not the faith the Apo­stles preached, for that was faith in Christs blood, as the foundation and ground of it, Rom. 3. 25. and so Christ by virtue of his blood shed, but neither T. M. nor a­ny of us made the present being of the Blood of Christ or simply its material sub­stance the foundation of Faith, and therefore they play the Sophisters in what they say.

And whereas they say that We now tell them that his blood was shed or powred out for the Remission of our sins, and in the vertue of it is with the Father, and so in and with Christ (they say) herein we confute our selves, but in what? that we could not assert where the material blood (namely that issued out of his side) is, and yet we say that the virtues of it are with the Father, and so in and with Christ.

Reply. What gross deceit is here? As if this is our answer now and was not so then; Whereas we call God to witness and the people that were present, that we told them then the virtues of it are in the person of Christ, and so represent it in our Narrative, as the answer we gave, What moved them else to dispute against the virtues of Christs Blood being separable from its substance, if we did not so an­swer? And our answer then would not satisfie, which it seems now doth, because they cannot give a better; So that G. W. and G. F. may rather be ashamed to insi­nuate to our hearers, that we confute ourselves, when we said the same things then that now they would bring against us, as cross to what we said, then we for any thing we have said to them, nor are the not being of the blood materially in his Body (had we so said) and its being in the vertues of it with the Father, and so in Christ at all contradictory to them that know what contradictions mean, Why did they not charge us with falshood, rather in saying in our Narrative that we gave that for an answer that we did not, if they know in their Consciences we did not then answer to, and if they know the contrary, why do they dissemble it?

[Page 53] W. and F. They quarrel with us for saying That the dying and death of Christ is the foundation of our faith, and yet it is not alwayes in being, (that is, he is not alwayes dying) and that the blood is not simply the foundation of our faith, and then tell us that we preach a foundation of our faith that is not in being, whereas the foundation of faith is Christ who is ever in being.

Reply. See here their wilful fraud, for whereas we said the dying of Christ is the foundation, or of the foundation of our faith (see else our book) these words, or of the foundation they willingly leave out; And whereas we added to what they repeat, viz. to that, the blood of Christ is not simply the foundation, we added, but Christ himself by vertue of it, as it was shed for us, and he raised from the dead, and he abides for ever; They have concealed those words, which had they repeated, they had had no ground for their cavil; Are not these meer Cavellers and forgers then that durst so wilfully create cavels against us where was none, by curtailing and misrepresenting our sayings?

They say As for what he acted in his sufferings, that was done that through his suf­ferings and works men might believe in him, &c.

Reply. What doth this but in other terms (though but in deceit, for that faith is that which is to be rooted up, as not grounded upon Christs appearing in them, that they might know him as he was before the world was and so to Salvation) ac­knowledge what they would cavil at; for what doth this differ from being the foun­dation of faith, if they were done that through them Men might believe in him? It seems without them then no ground of believing of him; They say, They did not blame us for not asse [...]ing the blood shed, not in his body, but for calling it the foundation, The former part of which appears false by their often twitting us with it, and yet it seems they do not assert otherwise of it then we did, save that they believe no personal body for it to be in; as for calling it the foundation of faith, we did it not, if either of us did it in opposition to and beside Christ, but as that through which Christ is the foundation, meaning by blood his sufferings to the shed­ding of his blood; nay indeed his sufferings may in some sence be said to be the foundation of faith, and Christ himself the foundation of his Church who are in that faith.

W. and F. They say T. M. his instance for Christs being in Heaven with a body of flesh and bones without blood in it was, that we do not read that there was any blood in Adams body in Paradise, for which (say they) he might as well have said that then Adams body had no life in it and such a body (they say) we imagine Christs to be, when­as the blood is the life, and all Nations are made of one blood, Act. 17. 26. and they ask if we believe there was no blood left in Christs body when he was crucified?

Reply. T. M. brought forth indeed such an observation as a conception or thought of his, which rendred it probable to his apprehension, that a glorified spi­ritual body needs not the being of material blood in it, that he reads not that A­dams body had blood in it before the fall, in which he conceives what before was more purely spirits was changed into blood, and therein the body became mortal, but this is but his private conception, which he gives not forth as an Oracle to be believed as an Article of Faith; We read that Paul himself in some things propoun­ded to him gives forth his advice and thoughts, which he sayes the Lord comman­ded not but he, and speaks therein as one that thought he had the Spirit of God to [Page 54] guide him therein, 1 Cor. 7: 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 25, 26, 40. and when he wills Believers not to despise prophecyings, he bids try all things and hold fast that that is good, as implying that even in those that prophecy according to Truth, as to the main fun­damentals of it, (for others prophecyings are to be despised and rejected, and coun­ted accursed, Gal. 1. 8, 9.) yet there may be possibly some things of mans thoughts and mistakes creep in; and therefore from such we ought not to swallow down for Truth all that they say or conceive because they say it, but to try what is said, and accordingly as we see Truth in it, receive it; but their tryal of what T. M. said doth not discover it to be unsound, onely they discover themselves void of judgement; for may it be as well said Adam had no life in Paradise as no blood? Is there no more said of his having life then of his having blood? Is it not said he breathed in­to him the breath of life, and he became a living Soul? Is it not said, God gave him commandment what to eat and what to forbear? And he called the beasts by their names, and slept, and waked, &c. Are not these certain demonstrations that he had life? But is there any such saying, that demonstrates he had blood, he said not of his wife, this is flesh of my flesh, and blood of my blood, had it been so said, T. M. would have been as far from supposing him to have had no blood then as now he is from supposing him to have had no life; But how prove they that Adam had Blood? Why (Blood is the Life) T. M. may answer, it is so in the fal­len state follows it, it was so there? Is there no difference between is now and was then? They add, he made of one blood all Nations, but neither doth that cross T. Ms. apprehensions, for there was no Nation nor man made of Adam before his fall, he fell before he propagated, and so by T. Ms. conception too had Blood for them to be made of before they were made of him, and as to that question, Whether we believe there was no blood left in Christs Body when crucified. How should we certainly believe what is not revealed? some judge it probable there was not, because it is said after his side was pierced, forthwith came there out Blood and water; water is menti­oned last, as if the Blood might be all drained out till water followed it, but we do not make that an Article of our Creed that it was so, we find some good men that had the oversight of the Churches here in Queen Elizabeth, and the following dayes did not dis-believe or deny such a conception, for it is Printed amongst those Songs and Hymns set before or after the Psalms in the Complaint of a Sinner, thus,

The Scripture doth declare, no drop of blood in thee;
For that thou didst not spare to shed each drop for me.

Tis probable had they thought it an error, they would scarce have let it be prin­ted there; But this is of those things, of which it use to be said, quisquis suo sensu abundet, let every man judge as he is perswaded in his own minde.

What they say of T. Ms. denying Christs Body to be a carnal Body, and opposing here­to his own words and the Priests, mentioning Priest Higginson and others, affirming that Christ is in Heaven with a Carnal Body, is erroneous too.

For though T. M. denyed his Body to be carnal as he did well to do, yet that did not contradict his saying, it is a Body that hath Flesh and Bones in it glorified, for fleshly and carnal are not alwayes one and the same, carneum and carnale dif­fer, as [...] & [...] in the Greek; sure an heart of flesh that the Lord promises [Page 55] is not a carnal heart, Ezek. 36. 26. What Priest Higginson and others affirmed we know not, its probable they bely him and them, as they stick not to do us, That the Body of Christ is seen and known, onely with that by which God is seen and known, hath this unsavoury conception intimated in it, that Christs Body is as spiritual and invi­sible to a bodily eye as God who is a Spirit▪ and not a Body is; But how then did Paul see him raised, and could witnesse it, if he be as invisible to the humane eye as God is? Or if he see nothing that ever was dead, and that he was seen of Paul as a person raised from the dead, is plain, in 1 Cor. 15. 4, 5. 8. and 9. 1. sure Paul was not the last to whom Christ was seen by Faith, and as spiritually demon­strated to the Soul, no nor the last of those to whom Christ was so seen in those times; Therefore when he sayes he was seen of him last, he must needs mean it of his Body seen and seen by Bodily sight, as the other Apostles see him by Bodily sight, or else he must speak very inconsistently with himself, which we may not grant.

In our pag. 12. I mistook in my hast, and writ Job for Elihu, which with my Pen I corrected too in divers Books, before I gave them out after I minded it, yet they declaim against this, as if it was some hainous fault.

They say, It was Elihu who was one that spake against Job, for Job knew God, when they that came against him did not.

And so they mention (with an addition of a lye of their own) that I pleaded for sin in it, a Lettter to Elizabeth Ʋnderwood, where I brought Eliphaz his words that say, His Angels he charged with folly, for which G. W. charges me J. H. because Eliphaz was one against whom Gods wrath was kindled, and who spake not the thing of God that was right.

To which charges I say, to the first of them; First, I confesse my self a man, and subject to forgetfulness and oversights, especially when in hast with businesse, and so I did in my forgetfulnesse write the word Job for Elihu, because the Book doth wholly bear the Title of Job; But Secondly, what great error was in that, seeing Eli­hu was an holy man as well as Job, and came not against Job otherwise then God himself after did to reprove him for some rash expressions which Job also afterward acknowledged his evil in, and Job as much implyed his not knowing God in the sense Elihu speaks of, in Job 42. 3. I have uttered, sayes he, that I understood not, and things too wonderful for me, and Elihu speaks as much of his knowing God as Job, Job 32. 18. I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me, &c. and 33. 3. 6. my words shall be of the uprightness of my heart, my lips shall utter knowledge clearly, which he could not have done, had he in no sense or in no good sense known God. Thirdly, Nor doth God at all reprove Elihu as speaking a misse in any thing of him, as he did Job and his other friends; So that the matter was not material, onely it showed that I was forgetful, and are not these men so too? Or are they more then men? Sure they would be thought so, and not to be of them of whom James sayes, my Brethren be not many masters (that is, be not censorious and harsh, lording it over men, as if you were without Spot or failing) knowing we shall receive the greater condemnation, for in many things we offend all; the people must conceive that all they write and say is by infallible inspiration; To this purpose was it that George Fox, happening to come by a letter I writ in answer to G. W. in vvhich (be­ing the first draught of it) upon some revievv, finding some things spoken to in the [Page 56] substance of them in two or three places as I was occasioned by diverse passages of like import, in G. Ws. Letter I had blotted out in one place 2. or 3. lines as suffici­ently spoken to in another place, and instead thereof, write some other things that came to my mind that I judged meet; now G. Fox, finding this, writes in the margin of my letter this or the like question; whether what I had first written and blotted out, I was led to write by the Spirit of God, &c. and yet in Geo. Ws. Letter there were many blottings out of words, as for Ministry of sin which he had writ he blotted it out, and writ sinful Ministry, and in one place interlined a whole line, are not these right Pharisees and Hypocrites, that will fault failings of Memory and such corrections of mistakes as passe in us, and therein glory and pretend to others as if all they writ and spake was by the Spirit, and yet wherein they glory they are found even as we, as is said by Paul of the false Apostles, 2 Cor. 8. 11. As for God speaking against Eliphaz, as not speaking of him the thing that was right as Job did, it was after Job had humbled himself, and confest his fault, and God had forgiven him, for before God faulted him also as not speaking rightly of him; See else Job 38. 1. 2. and 40. 2. Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him, he that reproveth God let him answer it, sure he that reproveth God doth not speak right of him; So ver. 8. wilt thou disannual my judgement, and condemn me that thou mightest be righteous? But again, doth it follow that because Eliphaz spake not rightly of God in some things, therefore he speak not right of the Angels, or nothing at all right of God? Is not this a right thing that he said of God, that he doth great things and unsearchable marvilous things, and without number, and that he gives rain upon the Earth, &c. Job. 5. 8. 9. Beside that what Eliphaz said of the Angels as charged with folly is related by Eliphaz rather as a thing revealed to him, and said to him in a vision by a Spirit, then as any saying of his own, see else Job 4. 13. 14. 15 16, 17, 18.

But would ye know why G. W. made this exception against my quoting of Eliphas his words, it was because I said it was the good Angels way to abase themselves in Gods presence, and not to proclaim themselves holy but God, as not judging themselves pure in comparison of him, whereas the evil Angels use to proclaime themselves as Gods, and desire to be worshipped; and because I compared the Qua­kers practice to that of the evil Angels and not of the good, therefore George would put that off by saying those were Eliphaz his words that spake not aright of God, but I mentioned also Isa. 6. 2. 3. 4. which he fairly past over with silence, think­ing his exception against that in Job. 4. and 15. was enough to blind his seduced Disciples eyes that they would never minde what Isaiah said; as for my belying the Servants of the Lord (as he falsely calls the Quakers) in my Book, and false Letters sent abroad into the Country as he charges me; thou mayest judge of the truth of that (Rea­der) by the truth or falshood of these Quakers in all hitherto discovered, its no discredit to be called a lyar and deceiver, by lyars and deceivers, they say [I have often belyed them and they could produce them] tis well they do not produce them though, but onely say what they can do, thinking you will call them Ma­sters therein and take it for a truth upon their bare say so; But can you think their charity such to me, as to have mentioned no one thing I have belyed them in, if they had many to produce? What they say about our probable Arguments on both sides, about the reuniting of the blood of Christ, with the body in his Resurrection [Page 57] needs no answering; The impartial Reader of our Book may observe, that there is onely mentioned what might be alleadged on either part of the question, without any determinations; and so that they say falsly, that we guessed it either way, that a School­boy could have given as good an answer as we gave above, (against which they are able here to except nothing, save to dissemble it that we gave not that answer then) is not very credible; but if so, it seems these Prophets could have given no better neither, for they fault us not, they say, for not asserting it in the Body of Christ; their re­vilings and reproaches we pass over in silence, onely whereas amongst those proba­ble arguments, we said about that in 1 Cor. 15. So (Flesh and Blood cannot in­herit the Kingdom of God) that in the changed state, what was blood before might be changed into Pure Life and Spirit, the thing or substance remaining, though not in the same form of Blood, which yet we conclude not, but lest to the judgement of the able in the Church.

They say, This is a meer dreame, and one of J. Hs. divinations, and contradicts Moors words, for he said, that the Life of Christ is not in his blood.

We Reply, That it is a dream or divination of J. Hs. cannot be, because its not his assertion that it is so, but so it may be for ought they or I can shew to the con­trary, nor contradicts T. Ms. words, for if it be changed into pure spirit and life, yet not in the form of blood (which last words they crastily left out, the better to deceive the simple, and make it seem a contradiction) then is not his life by that supposition in his blood, in the sence he spake it in, that is the life of his glorified body is in not in the Blood (if it be not Blood, but pure life and spirits) so as to be nourished by the supply of blood as the natural body is, the Scripture they allude to, speaks of the mortal life of the natural body preserved by food, turned into blood, and not of a spiritual and raised body as his Speech was.

To their Question, What is the Body of flesh and bones turned into then?

We Answer, His Body had flesh and Bones in it, in the raised changed state as he shewed his Disciples; And therefore that they are changed into any other thing, or that the bodies of the Saints raised shall not have Flesh and Bones in them as his had, follows not.

What they say in the remainder of page 17. is all spoken to before.

W. and F. Whereas p. 18. they say, That they believe not that when Christ after the Resurrection shewed his Disciples his Hands and his Feet, his Body then had no blood in it.

We will not contend with them about it, for neither is it an Article of our Faith, though their conceit proves not that it had, nor can it be any thing more then a meer guesse, though they are so infallibly led, they pretend that they must not be thought by their Disciples to guesse at any thing, as if they knew it not.

They alleadge, that he eat before them of the broiled Fish and Hony Comb, which is nourishment both to flesh and blood.

Reply▪ Tis so to our Natural Bodies, follows it that it was so to his raised spiritual Body?

They say, The Blood is the Life of that that hath need of such nourishment, yea the life of all flesh is Blood, Gen. 9. 4, 5. Levit. 17. 14.

Reply▪ This is true of mortal flesh in its natural state, but that Christ eat because he needed such nourishment after his Resurrection for his raised body we believe not, but to demonstrate by infallible proofs, that he was truly raised in a real and not a [Page 58] fantastical body; And therefore all this is to no purpose.

As for what they prate of The Body of Christ in Glory, and the Bodies of the Saints in the Resurrestion, that they shall as far exceed in Glory, these our earthly bodies, as the Sun, Moon and Stars do exceed the bodies of birds, beasts and Fishes.

These are but Visors to hide their uglinesse, for what resurrection is there of the Saints, if that body that dyed shall never rise? Can any thing be said to rise again that never fell or dyed? as they say, The body that dies shall not.

But therefore they tell us, The mystery of these things is for ever sealed up in Para­bles from such blind guides as they reproach us to be who have long abused the Truth; &c.

It seems Reader, they would have thee know that whatever they seem to say fair­ly, they have another meaning couched under it, and so they walk in hidden things of dishonesty, and deal deceitfully, and would make us believe the Apostles did so too, who commended themselves to every mans Conscience in the sight of God, and did not hide their meanings, but speak openly what Christ spake to them in para­bles, but these have usually another meaning for the Apostles sayings, because they believe them not in their own meaning in which they uttered them; understand Rea­der that (as Joseph Fisher a Quaker in a Paper to us implies) the change of the Body is made by the Babe within here, before the separation of the Soul and Body, and so that their spiritual bodies are those that excel so in glory above the Bodies of Beasts and Birds, that is, those that are not in and of the same corrupt mind with them; Some such mystery they put upon the Apostles plainest sayings to make them Parables.

To justifie their corrupt Doctrine, that the Scriptures are not the Medium of Faith (which we disproved from John 17. 20. Acts 17. 11, 12.)

They alledge, That no Scripture sayes the Scriptures are the Medium of Faith.

Reply. Nor say they Christ is the Medium neither, though the word Medium be not expressed, the sence of it is, as (through their words.)

They say, The Apostles were not Ministers of Letter.

Reply. If by Letter they mean the writing of words as in Epistles and Letters, its false, for they Ministred the Knowledge of God, both by Vocal Preaching, and by writing it in Epistles and Letters, so as men in reading their writings might see the Truth and acknowledge it, and understand their Knowledge in the Mystery of Christ, 2 Cor. 1. 13. Ephes. 3. 4. 5. and though their words however Ministred by them, whether by audible voice or writing, our Saviour supposes men should believe, for he limits it not to any one way of Ministration; Are not the sayings of the Apostles their words because they be written? The Letter of which the Apostles sayes they were not Ministers, is clearly the Law opposed to the Gospel, which is a Ministrati­on of Spirit, whether spoken or written. Now (through their words) is all one in sence, as to say their words are a Medium of mens believing.

To that of the Bereans they say, That the Bereans first received the Word with all readinesse of mind, and then searched the Scriptures.

But this they say of their own head, for the Scriptures say not so, but that they received the word with all readinesse of mind, and searched the Scripture, and that therefore many of them believed, which implies their searching the Scriptures and finding them to agree with the Apostles words was a Medium or mean of their rea­dier believing; But of those words urged by us, they take no notice, they could [Page 59] once and again make something of there, when it signified nothing but hereof, but hereof therefore, when it signifies or points to a mediate cause they make nothing. Oh perverse and crooked generation! nor doth the mentioning their searching the Scriptures after the mention of their receiving the word imply that they first receiv­ed the word, and then searched the Scriptures, no more then the mentioning of mens confessing with the mouth the Lord Jesus before the believing him in the heart, raised from the dead, Rom. 10. 9. implies that the confession must be first in being before believing in the same person. Nor doth the Greek mention any (and) but reads it thus, these received the word with all readinesse, searching the Scriptures, and that manner of phrase usually signifies the latter as a means to the former, as may be seen, Acts 8. 3. 6. 9. 13. Heb. 12. 1, 2. &c. their confounding the Author with the Medium is a piece of their confusion, though Christ be the Author of Faith, and bring to believe, that hinders not, but the Scriptures and the Doctrine therein declar­ed may be and is the Medium; but these are truly Blind guides that are destitute of understanding; wo to the people that are led by them.

Page 19. John Whiteheads witnessing against our charge of him with saying, That the Apostles were not bringers of light, but onely pointed to what they had before, is of no credit with us, because we know it to the contrary in his speaking, and so do the Au­ditory if they remember what was spoken by him, though yet their defence That the light was the same in nature in both the Apostles and them they preach to, is unsound too. For what Light was in the Ephesians who were darknesse before the Apostle preached to them? The Light the Apostles Preacht was the Light of the Glory of God in the Face of Jesus Christ, that the Ephesians while darknesse had any measure of that in them, we want their proof.

G. W. Should have done well to have vindicated his own corrupt Gloss upon that saying, Ephes. 5. 8. ye were sometimes darknesse, viz. they had some darkness in them, but he sneaks away from that▪ and takes no notice of it; Sure here it behoved him to have proved what light the Ephesians had in them (of the same nature with what the Apostles brought them) before their coming to them.

We accused them that as a main piece of their corrupt Doctrine, that they say, All have the Light of Christ in them, and that that is whatsoever reproves any sin in men, to which they bid men look for all their Light and teaching. To this they say, We might as well have accused Christ and the Apostles, but mention not one Saying of theirs that jumps with their Doctrine; for though Christ Saith I am the Light of the World, yet he saith, Not every man in the World hath me or my Light in him, and thats it that re­proves and checks them. John saith, Christ is the true Light that lighteth (it is not en­lightneth) every man coming into the World. But he saith, Not that that light is in every man that cometh into the World and continues in him so long as he is in the world, and what­soever he find reproving sin in him, is that Light? The Apostle Saith, That which may be known of God, was manifest in them that detain the Truth in unrighteousnesse, but that it still continues in them that like not to retain it, but put it from them, and say to God, De­part from us, we desire not the knowledge of thy wayes (somewhat like these mens say­ing, That they desire not the Knowledge of that Christ we look for from Heaven) and whose minds are [...] without judgement, the Apostle sayes not Can they be without judgement, that have Christs light in them, seeing its his judgement that he makes to rest for a Light of the People, Isa. 51. 4.

[Page] The Grace of God that bringeth Salvation hath appeared to all men, its said. But that all receive, and so have it abiding in them, its not said, much lesse that whatsoe­ver reproves sin in them is it, that its given to all we deny not; And therefore men are condemned, because when given them they accept it not.

They ask, What it is in men that must leave them without excuse?

And we say, but what of it have they in them whom it hath left or leaves with­out excuse, is that in a man which hath left him?

They ask, How can we shew, that have not a Light of Christ in them to reprove them?

And we say, George Whitehead, George Fox and such impudent lyars, if they be as much without reproof within as they seem to be without in their brazing out their lies before men, and in the Scriptures, those that being past feeling, have given o­ver themselves to all licentiousness, to work iniquiry with greediness, Ephes. 4. 19. But they say, We have wickedly wronged them, for they do not say what soever reproves any sin is the Light of Christ. But that here they themselves are the lyars and do wrong, we appeal to those that heard and remember what John Whitehead said in his dis­course at Gedney about the Covenant of Light; how after he had told them it is given to every man, and that thats the word in men, by the hearing of which comes Faith [corruptible enough] then propounded where it is? and asked if they found not something in their consciences reproving them for sin, and told them that was it they should heed; that was that light, and much to that purpose; which when we opposed and said, Satan transforming himself into an Angel of Light, could for his own ends reprove for sin, they exclaimed of us till we brought diverse argu­ments from Scripture about it; And surely if Satan know that men have such princi­ples, he is so Subtile as to put himself into the form of a Reprover for many evils, that so he may gain credit with them to receive his delusions, as the run-about Pha­risees also could do, many of these steps these men walk in, whether their way exposes men to follow their own Spirits on the Grounds aforesaid, or onely to follow the the Light of Christ, we leave it to the judgement of all that understand things that differ, or that have read the relations of John Toldervy and John Gilpin and o­thers of that way.

They charge it as a lye of ours, that we say Geo. Whitehead derided at mens faith, in the Death and Bloodshed of Christ beyond the Seas; We added, as if that was a good foundation of faith, which they subtilly suppresse, and herein we appeal to all that heard our dispute, that remember and have the honesty to say what they heard, and what else do they in their Book, when they say, our faith that is not grounded in Christs appearing in us is to be turned up by the roots; Yea, and again in p. 15. in what they say against our affirming the Death and Bloodshedding of Christ to be the foundation, or of the foundation of our faith, yea and here they shew their corrup­tion in saying, that the faith they own they know the word of it to be in the heart (they mean before outward Preaching heard) and that they have it not to fetch from beyond the Sea, nor from above, nor from beneath, but its nigh in the heart and in the mouth, refusing still to take notice of what follows, though with that we charge them in our Book, and shewed from what follows the scope of the Apostle therein, and how it favours not their corrupt conception, which here they have clearly past over as not daring to meddle with it, we refer the Reader then to what our Book says about it, as being left unanswered by them.

[Page]That the light wherewith Christ lighteth every man is both Natural and Spiritu­all in diverse streams of it, we said and explicated largely, which here they dissemble, here they cavil, that we called not the light he lightens men with lights, but light; If a man should ask what peace God is Author of, and we should say of all true and good peace, both Temporal and Eternal, outward and inward, VVere not he a very caveller that would cavel at us for not saying all peaces, but all peace? such is their folly here; As also in faulting us for not proving one light to be both Natural and Spiri­tual, when as we never affirmed it, no more then one peace to be both Temporal and Eternal; Are not these pretty men that accuse us for not proving what we never said, and then charge that as an errour which is a most undeniable truth? Is not Christ the Author of all Natural light as well as Spiritual? And is it not a grosse errour in them to deny it? They say the life in him is the Light of men, and that is not Natural but Spiritual; But therein they confound the Light lighting, and the Light streaming from that Light, and so prevaricate, as if they should say Christ is our peace, and he is not Temporal but Eternal, therefore Temporal peace is not given by him; Doth not Life in Christ produce both Natural and Spiritual good to men? Let all that understand judge.

We said, forsomuch as all men receive not Christ and his Light, therefore all have not him and his Light in them; This they say is a poor Argument, lets see how they prove it so; The Spirit of the Lord, they say, and the Grace of God hath appeared in many that have resisted it and not received it, and a measure of it is in such to condemn them, as the Kingdom of God was in the Scribes and Pharisees, and yet they received him not, nor Christ when they heard him, a poor answer; For beside that they say what the Scripture says not, as that the Spirit and Grace of God appears in many that resist it, and a measure of it is in such to condemn them; They take hold of a dubious saying to confirm it, for the words ( [...]) signifies as well a­mong you as in you, and Christ and his Church which is called his Kingdom was amongst them. Again 2. Gods providential Kingdom is over all and rules in all things, men and devils, though they come not voluntarily under it, follows it there­fore that his Light his Spiritual Light, (for of that they speak) is in them? 3. His Kingdom may be in men in its strivings in them for admission, and yet upon their rejection God may take it from them, as he threatened the Pharisees, Mat. 21▪ 43. And thats sufficient to justifie our Argument, that it is not in all men forasmuch as all men receive it not, God by way of punishment taking it from some for their re­jection of it, for it is still in them from whom it is taken? Surely not; To their exceptions about the morning Light (not in some Isa. 8. 20.) we said Christ is called the morning Star, and therefore if no morning light in any man; then none of his Light who is the morning light.

W. and F. They tax herein our Ignorance, for say they, that Light of Christ shines in darknesse in some before the morning, and that led some to the arising of the day-Star in their hearts; And so the Light of Christ who is the morning Light [...], to some appears as a Candle, in the darknesse to others▪ and is not the morning light to them, till they by it see the morning in them; And the Light that hath shined in darknesse arising out of dark­ness. So that the Light of Christ is both the evening Light and the morning Light.

Reply. Herein they allude to 2 Pet. 1. 19 and so they imply that the word of Prophecy (the Scriptures of the Prophets, for it appears clearly by the next verse [Page] that he speaks of them, as more sure to others, for their faith because more abundantly confirmed then the Apostles, saying that they had such a vision then was) is not the morning Light, & that the believers that had like precious faith with the Apostles had not the morning Light in them, and so were like those that peep and mutter and Preach false Doctrine, such as Isaiah speaks of, Isa. 8. 19, 20. But, 2. What if the morning Light appears (as they say) to some as a candle light, is it not therefore the morning Light? Hath not a Star sometimes seemed to some to be a candle, was it therefore not a Star? 3. Metaphors are not to be strained, David says the Lord shall lighten my candle, was not that light that lighted him the morning Light, because it is compared in him to candle light? So the Apostles are compared to a candle, no man lights a candle and puts it under a bushel, &c. Mat. 5 15. Were they not therefore lighted with the morning Light, because they were like candles to the World? Will ye say the Apostles were like the peepers and Mutterers in whom was no morning Light.

4. Is it enough for them to say, the light that appears to some as candle light is not the morning light to them, till they by it see the morning in them, &c. Is not the morning Star the morning Star till men see the morning by it? Doth its be­ing so depend upon their seeing it?

5. In their conclusion from all this that Christs Light is both morning and evening Light, do they not imply that Christ shines with two Spiritual Lights, the morn­ing and the evening lights. But,

6. And chiefly, might not this glosse of theirs upon Isa. 8. 20. afford a way to the deceivers to encourage themselves in their deceits, and imbolden the people to listen to them though they peep and mutter, and speak not according to the Law and Testimony, for would it be a sufficient reason to avoid such that no morning light is in them, if there glosse be true that they have the Light of Christ in them though as candle light, or evening light; Or should men listen to the morning Light of Christ, and them that speak according to it, but not to the evening light or candle light of Christ? And was not the Apostle Peter out then that said the believers did well to take heed to the candle light or light shining in a dark place, if that was not morning light till the day dawned? Yea did not Peter by the glosse contradict Isaiah, commending them for that that Isaiah would not have them to do? Or might not that be replyed to that Prophet, your counsell is not good to will us to turn away from men because there is no morning light in them, seeing though that be not in them that speak not according to the Law and Testimony, yet the Light of Christ may be in them, the evening light; sure the morning light is not in these men, for they speak not according to the Law and Testimony, as appears in the particulars above; Would they perswade men that Christs Light is in them, notwithstanding his evening light? VVell but the Prophet would not have us inquire of such or listen to them what ever light they pretend is in them.

They call J. H. impudent lyar, for charging them with a passage about Mr. Townsend.

To that J. H. sayes he cannot be guilty of impudent lying, for he followed the Cambridge Queries, and what was attested in them, judging the Author of them to set down the words punctually, seeing the Scholler that disputed with and baffled them (as there it appears) had the Book out of which it is quoted; If it be not so as he [Page] sets it down, let the fault lie at his door.

For J. H. never see the Book though he sent for it that he might have seen it, he might be too rash in taking it upon trust, & not fathering it upon him whence he had it, in that he confesses himself faulty, and craves forgivenesse, yet it appears that they were not herein led by an infallible Spirit, for then they would have known J. H. was guilty only of overcredulousnesse, not of impudent lying; he would be loath wilfully to bely the Devil, much lesse any man though his instruments.

VVhat follows in p. 21, 22. sufficiently speaks out their deceitful way to the in­timate denying of Christ come in the flesh as the Apostles preached him to them that can understand truth from deceit; VVhile they justified James Naylors deceitfull and erroneous sayings alleadged by us out of his Book called Love to the lost, ne­ver taking notice of, or giving any answer to what was said in our Book to confute them. Reader I pray minde it, James Naylor in the Book aforesaid (as I Jo. Horn testifie by my own sight of it) treating of Redemption, says few know the subject of it, the seed to which the promise (viz. of Redemption) is made, but sayes it is a certain seed or principle in men groaning for liberty from sin, &c. Now here G. W. and the rest say, that seed of God is Christ, and wherever he is known in such a low measure as a seed that suffers, and is burthened in man by corruption, there he desires to be free from the burthen of sin, and alwayes to do his Fathers will. Now mind what the Apostles say, they say Christ is the Redeemer and Redemption, but never that he himselfe is the thing to be redeemed, as these say he is, the Redeemer, saith Isaiah shall come to Zion, Isa▪ 59. 20. And Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us, &c. saith Paul, but they never say Christ himself is to be redeemed, or that he is burthened in men by corruption, and it hath power over him to binder him from doing his Fathers will alwayes as he desires to do; And so makes him a sinner contrary to 1 John 3. 5. but on the contrary, Death hath no more dominion over him, and so by consequence not sin, for if it had Death would, it being the wages of sin. Well, but see yet further their corrupt mystical stuff [...], the mystery of Iniquity that is in them.

They say, And this seed the power reaches to where it is begotten, and in the power it arises in them that believe in the Light for their Redemption.

Reply. Was there ever such confused stuffe heard of? One while it is the seed which is Christ that is burthened in man by corruption, that is to be redeemed, and another while its the believer in the Light for the Redemption, so that both Christ and the believer are to be Redeemed; But who must redeem the Seed which is Christ? Thats but darkly and confusedly hinted, Babel like, The power sure that reaches to the seed, but what is that? Is it Christ? Then Christ redeems Christ, is it the Spirit? Then the Spirit redeems Christ where he is begotten; So that here is Christ begotten, and Christ suffering, and burthened with sin to be redeemed by the Power or Spirit, and all in them that believe in the light for Redemption, but what is that light they believe in? Sure that must be Christ too, unlesse it be som­thing from him lesse then Christ; but how should a Believer believe in a Christ for re­demption that wants it himselfe, and is the subject of it? The Apostles preached a raised Christ for men to believe in? These men a suffering and burthened Christ that wants Redemption himselfe; And is not here too Christ and corrup­tion both in the believer, are they both Natural or both Spiritual heritages think [Page 64] we? But in them that believe in the Light it rises say they in the Power, &c. and this is Christs dying in men for their sins, and rising in them for their justification, that believe in him thats dying, and rising in them for redemption, in their Lan­guage rare Mysteries of confusion, confounding the Spirit of man with Christ, and putting it for him. The Apostles preacht Christ dead and raised for all, never that he is yet dying and rising for and in some. But,

They say, The Apostle travelled again for the Galathians till Christ was formed in them, who first is known as one without form or comlinesse.

Reply. That the Apostle traviled again in birth of the Galathians till Christ was formed in them, is true; But even as the Galathians were not personally and car­nally in Paul, though he traveled again in birth of them, but onely in his love and affection: So neither are we so carnally and fantastically to conceive of Christs forming in them, as if he was a seed or principle to be begotten and redeemed in them, and suffering, and burthened in them, and to be brought forth into form in them personally, but onely the knowledge and faith of him was to be brought forth or formed in their hearts.

2. Nor is it true but very false, that Christ is first known as one without form or comlinesse, but rather while he is so apprehended he is not known, its mens ig­norance, unbelief, and wrong thoughts of him makes them see no beauty in him; Isaiah speaking of the Jews, and in their person as one of that body, and prophecying of the mean appearance of Christ in the flesh, signifies how he should through Igno­rance and unbelief be rejected by them, and they should see no form or comelinesse in him, wherefore they should desire him as the verses following also shew, not that any knowing him, first know him so.

They proceed thus, And so the seed of God suffers in some, and in others it reigns and is known to be Prince of Peace.

Reply. Here is their sence of Christs death and Resurrection, Christs dying and rising in men, and this is the word that they say is in every man before outward Preaching; The word of Faith nigh in the heart and in the mouth, but what need Preachers be sent then to preach this, or who be the Preachers sent of God in men to declare it, without whose being sent of God they could not Preach it, and with­out whose preaching men could not hear and believe! Yea in this Mysterious and Babylonish stuffe, here is Christ forming, suffering and rising at once; Suffering in some and rising in others, and so the Apostles doctrine is turned up by the roots, as not grounded in Christs appearing in men; Where he says, Nor yet that he (Christ) should offer himself often as the High Priest entereth into the holy Place every year with blood of others, for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the World; but now once in the end of the World hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself, Heb. 9. 26. Where the Apostle counts it absurd to say Christ hath suffered often since the foundation of the World: and be­hold this new Mystery (I suppose the everlasting Gospel so called, composed by the Fryers about King Henry 3ds. time) tells us boldlyActs, and Mon. vol. 1. p. 416. and roundly he is yet suffering and suffers daily and reigns daily, in every age suffers in some & reigns in others; And so Christ himselfe was out that said, I was dead and am alive, and live fox evermore; but for that of the Hebrews, I suppose if these new but not true prophets and Apostles would speak out [Page 65] they would tell us the foundation and the end of the world are both in them, but re­member still that they are not the true Apostles and Prophets whatever they say.

They say, This is no Mystery of deceit as we say of it, but a Mystery that hath discovered our deceits, who know not the seed of the Kingdom nor the power wherein it rises.

Reply. Yes, yes this is the Mystery of deceit, the strong delusion long since prophesied of that men should be given over to for not receiving the love of the Truth, that they might be saved; But counting the Preaching of the crosse foolishnesse, as in truth this people do, and that makes them turn it into a fable or Allegory; but we know the end of these men, and them that follow them wilfully and pertinaciously too, as the Apostle hath foretold; For this cause God shall send them strong delusions to believe aly (and they believe it indeed that will deny the True Christ and his suf­ferings, and Sacrifice, and Gospel for it, and run into hazards and sufferings like mad men to promote it) that they might be all damned that have not believed the Truth, (as indeed these heartily have not, for had they, they would not easily have entertained such deceits and fancies) but have pleasure in unrighteousnesse, &c. 2 Thes. 2. 10, 11, 12. Wo, wo to this people and their followers, for however they are entered in for this condemnation or contention, their damnation slumbereth not; Flee from their tents and Teachings, their deceits and underhand denyals of the only Lord God and the Lord Jesus Christ that bought them all, yea that would escape utter ruine and destruction, for here we have the Spirit that confesseth not Christ come in the flesh, but making him the figure of a Spirituall wickednesse, or Mysterious deceit that works in them that perish; For even in that clause last mentioned by them too, the seed of the Kingdom is made all one with the Son of man that sows it, for both are Christ with them; but they ask, Have we never known what Christ is without the Camp? Surely we know he is a reproach and scorn to such as these are that are not of the Camp of Israel, and thither must we follow him bearing his reproach for owning and acknowledging his simplicity.

But they say, That before we who are neglecters of Christ and abusers of his Truth can know the seed of God, and what it is in us, we must come to the Light which will con­demn us for our deceits and lyes wherewith we have abused the Truth, and then learn to know what and where the grave is which Christ hath made with the wicked.

Reply. Their reproach we shall bear and shew their evil in it by and by, but this we say, That by the light that reproves and condemns all neglects and abuses of Truth in us or them, we are helped to see the Mystery of their deceits and Spiritual wickednesses in Heavenly things, and how they turn his words of truth into a lie, not only neglecting but wholly trampling the true Christ under their feet, that they might make way for and introduce their own fancies.

Toward the end of our discourse, turning our speech to the people, we desired them to take heed of these men as a heavie judgement of God that he hath ordered to us, (joyning ourselves therein with the people as part of the National Body, as the Apostles and Prophets use to do) to punish us for our neglect of Christ the Salvation of God, and abuse of his Truth; And here they think they have gotten a great advan­tage, and their mouths are exceedingly open upon us, wresting our words and load­ing us with reproaches, twitting us over and over that we are neglecters of Christ, and abusers of Gods Truth by our own confession, blessed be God that we are count­ed worthy to suffer reproach for his Names sake, for thats the thing they are mad at [Page 66] us, for though they take occasion from our confession of our own and the peoples sins, therein shewing themselves the right brood of evil doers, such as David of old grap­pled with in his age, as in Psal. 38. 17, 18, 19. For I am ready to halt, said David, and my sorrow is continually before me; For I said I will declare mine iniquity, I will be sorry for my sins, but mine enemies are lively (as if they had no sin to own and confess, or were none of the body of the people that had deserved judgement,) and they are strong, (in their delusion, and confidence in evil) and they that hate me wrongfully are multiplyed, so these men thus triumph.

W. and F. Here have yee made manifest your selves indeed, ye Hypocrites, what have ye been crying out against the Quakers, calling them deceivers, warning the people to be­ware of them, writing against them and judging them to be in delusion and errours, when you your selves neglect Christ the salvation of God, and have long abused the truth, as ye are made to confesse; consider your own condition, you are in great delusion and errour your selves who neglect Christ, &c. and ye are not like to bring people, nor can, to Christ the Salvation of God and his Truth, who are neglecters of Christ, and abusers of his Truth, &c.

Reply. To which we say, 1. They wrest our sayings as if we spake only of our selves, when we speak evidently of the Nation in generall, and of our selves as part of them, as having our share also too much in their pollutions. And is it not evident that the Nation is too full of neglect of Christ, and abuse of his Truth, nor do we exempt our selves from all faultinesse therein; Even as the Prophets of old joyned in them­selves with the people, whose sins they confessed, as knowing, should the Lord have been severe to mark their iniquities, they could not have stood; Therefore they said not (as the Hypocrites) stand apart, we be holier then you, as those do that are a smoak in Gods nostrils, a fire that burneth all the day, Isa. 65. 5. For,

2. The Hypocrites be those that spy moats in their brothers eye, but see not the beam in their own, that justifie themselves before men, and stand by themselves, and say God I thank thee, I am not as other men are, I am not as this Publi­can, &c. The Hypocrites use not to be sencible of and own their sins, but ra­ther boast themselves to be holy, as if they had no sin; Search the Scriptures, and see if the Scribes and Pharisees Hypocrites, or the true Apostles and Prophets rather use to confesse their sins, and take shame to themselves for them. You may finde David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Paul, James, John, &c. but never the Scribes and Pharisees so doing, let all see whether they or we be in the steps of the Hypocrites, then do they walk directly in them, lifting up themselves as if they had no sins to confesse, when indeed they be most deceitfull and abominable Hypo­crites, in the inside of their Doctrine, turning the Truth of God into a lie. But,

3. What would they have done had they lived with the true Apostles, and Pro­phets, from whom they distinguished themselves above? Would they not have fal­len fowlly upon them, and reproached them as they do us? Had they heard Davids saying▪ innumerable evils have compassed me about, mine iniquities have taken such hold upon me that I am not able to look up, they are more then the hairs of my head, therefore my heart faileth me; Would they not have called him Hypocrite for faulting his enemies and persecutors as evil doers, and yet he himselfe so burthened with iniquity? Had they heard Isaiah say, we grope for the wall like the blinde, we grope as if we had no eyes, we stumble at noon day as in the night, &c. Isa. 59. 12, 13, 14. for our transgressions are [Page 67] multiplyed before thee▪ our sins testifie against us, for our transgressions are with us, and as for our iniquities we know them, in transgressing and lying against the Lord, and depart­ing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, &c. Would they not have said, Oh thou Hypocrite! hast thou been crying out against us as blind and bruitish, and such as have no understanding, and dost thou grope like a blinde man, and as if thou hadst no eyes, people had need take heed of thee, least thou lead them blind-fold into the ditch? Do you lie and transgresse, and speak words of ravolt from God? Should we or any of us then take heed to you? Consider your own conditions, &c. Do not those words speake as high as neglect of Christ and abuse of his Truth? Revolt from him signifies more then simply neglect of him, and how would these have reproached him, had they heard him say▪ we are all as an unclean thing, and all our Righteousnesses are as filthy rage, &c. Isa. 64. 6. Would they not have cryed out upon him unclean wretch, and bid him leave preaching, and told the people they had need to take heed of following such an unclean wretch? Had they lived in Agurs dayes, and heard or seen him publish his prophecy with Jehiel, &c. and how he begins with this confession, Surely I am more bruitish then man, and have not the understanding of a man, I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the Holy; Would not such proud Pharisees as these have cryed out upon him for a beast, what should he be heard for? And warned people not to take heed to his sayings, seeing he confesses he hath not the knowledge of the holy, Prov. 30. 2, 3. The like I might observe of Ezra, and Nehemiah, & Job confessing their sins, and Da­niel, that they had done wickedly & rebelled by departing from Gods precepts & judg­ments▪ & Daniel, says expresly that he confessed his sins as well as the sins of his peo­ple, Dan. 9. 20. Yea and this too after they were holy men, and Prophets, and born of God, as was made good lately against G. W. at our later dispute with him, he not being able to maintaine the contrary; What would they have said had they lived when Paul that wrote against the Antichristians, (that made a fair shew in the flesh and gloried in appearance) comes out with an acknowledgement that he was a chief of sinners, and lesse then the least of all Saints? Eph. 3. 8. Would they not have concluded him to be an Hypocrite to give out himself to be an Apostle, and Preacher of Christ, and yet not so much as the least Saint? Would they not have concluded him then one of the World, and so led by a worldly deceitful spirit, not to be believed and followed? Reader judge indifferently between us if they in thus reproaching us for joyning our selves with the people, and confessing our selves faulty in that we have too much neglected Christ, and abused his Truth, not so contended for Christ against these deceivers and false prophets as we should, nor so used and walked in his Truth as we ought, and are not like the Pharisees that pre­tend themselves perfect and to have no sins to own and confesse? Judge whether of us tread more in the steps of the Prophets and Apostles, who said if we confess our sins he is faithfull and just to forgive us, and to cleanse us from all unrighteous­ness; Judge whether of us have the beame in our eye to hinder us from seeing, we that pull it out by owning and confessing our evils with the evils of the people, or they that hide their wickednesses and justifie themselves as no sinners, though guilty of such horrid damnable deceits, as we have herein in them discovered.

They bid give over our Teaching of others.

Reply. Ay thats the thing they would have, thats it grieves them, that the sheep should not be left to the Wolves that they might devour them; but is that whole­some [Page 68] Counsel and the way for us to do better; we confess we have too much neglect­ed Christ, and they would have us neglect him more, let him look to his own affairs, &c. We confess we have been guilty with the Nation in the abuses of truth, and they would have us abuse it worse by suppressing it, that God might take it from us and give us up to their delusions; Nay, nay, thats not the way to do well, thats counsel from the Devil; Did not the holy men above mentioned condemn and reprove the false Prophets and enemies of the Truth of Christ in their several ages, because they confest themselves guilty of such evils, bruitishness, iniquities, no whit below our expressions?

See what Agur sayes, notwithstanding his foresaid confession, Prov. 30. 12, 13. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes (are not these Quakers such?) and yet are not washed from their filthiness. There is a Generation, Oh how losty are their eyes, and their eye-lids are lifted up: Are not the Generation of the Quakers such haughty and proud boasters? Did not David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul, John, &c. Preach against and reprove the false Prophets, hypocrites and Antichrists of their times too, though they confest sins in themselves? Should they not have done thus? Or should not the people have listened to and followed their doctrines because of those their confessions?

See then people that we may reprove and cry out against the Quakers and warn you of them, though we consess we have been too guilty in not arming you as we ought against them. The Apostle Paul intimately faults the generality of the believers and Teachers of his time, as too much guilty of neglecting Christ and abusing his Truth, when he sayes, he had none naturally minded, as Timothy, for all seek their own and none the things that be Jesus Christs, Phil. 2. 20, 21. Did he say therefore that they should leave preaching Christ? Surely not; Christ also faults the Church of Laodi­cea▪ for the like evils contained in lukewarmness, did he bid them therefore not preach his truth? Nay, but to be zealous and amend, Rev 3. 14. 15. 19.

W. and F. They ask if they be a judgement of God upon us, why we do not bear the Judgement of God more patiently, seeing we have sinned so against him; why we rage so against God, and say all people may be satisfied that we be not contended with Gods Judgement.

Reply. All this is but deceit; For First, what impatiency or rage do we discover against Gods judgement? Is that rage or impatiency to reprove and warn men to beware of deceivers? Were not the false prophets and deceivers alwayes a judge­ment? And did not the Prophets and Apostles alwayes reprove them and warn Peo­ple of them? Did they therefore rage against Gods judgement?

Secondly. Had God sent us instead of these some judgement of Savage Beasts, Ly­ons, VVolves, &c. might we not have used our best diligence to sray them away and destroy them without impatience under Gods hand or judgement? Or if God should send an Army of Turks or Spaniards to punish us in this Nation for our neglect of Christ and abuse of his Truth, may we not fight against them what we can, and en­deavour to beat and destroy them, and yet not rage against Gods Judgement, but bear patiently what he orders to us? So if God send strong delusions, is not that a Judgement? Must we be content and satisfied with them, and not discover and re­sist them for fear of being impatient under his Judgement? Even so may we and ought we to be diligent against these by word and writing, to oppose and discover [Page 69] their filthy dreams and deceits, and yet we may be patient under his hand, and have no grudge in our spirits against him, as the Prophet Micah who was exercised in his dayes with some such evil generation, Mic. 7. 8, 9. he resolved to bear the indig­nation of the Lord, because he had sinned against him (he owned himself a sinner though the hypocrites his enemies rejoyced against him) till God should plead his cause, &c. and yet he ceased not to reprove and endeavour to keep people from be­ing harmed by such enemies.

They threaten They will be an heavier judgement and a burthensome stone, &c.

Reply. We blesse God we see in some measure what they are, and we are above their reach, and the more they strive against the Truth of Christ with us, we are sure the more to discover and lay open their wickednesse, we shall be able through the strength of Christ to scatter their mists and fogs, and their weapons of deceit shall have no force upon us, the more we strive with you (ye Quakers) the more (through Gods help) we overcome you and get above you, so as to be strengthened in our Spirits against you, and your swelling words of vanity that you think to fray the simple with.

And where as they bid us Learn to prize Christ the Salvation of God and Truth▪ and believe therein, and fight no longer against the Lord, and his Truth, and his Servants, least he shorten our dayes, &c.

Reply. We hope we prize Christ, so as we think all our service for him against them and for his Truth, against their destructive deceits too little to be performed to him, and that our greatest diligence to know and serve him, is so far below his excellency, as that we judge our selves guilty of neglecting him, in serving him no more, and our greatest services for his Truths and Servants too much abusive of them, as Job confessed (though he spake many excellent things of God) that he but darkened Counsel by words without Knowledge, but far be it from us to fight against the Lord or his Truth or Servants, tis against their errors, and in them that serve another Master then the Lord (as through Gods strength we have made them manifest) that we fight, and we say, they that have their life in heaven, and their hope stedfast for the Resurrection of their Bodies and the Glory of Christs King­dom, fear not either that God will shorten their dayes for their service against his adversaries, nor what death can do to them if it shorten their dayes in the flesh; and we blesse God that we have thriven the better both in Souls and Bodies since we con­tended against them and their errors.

W. and F. They say, The Lord hath searched and tryed our Hearts, and found us guilty of much ungodlinesse, and his Light hath often made us sensible of it, &c. and we have long sleighted his call, and hardened our Hearts against his reproof.

Reply. Herein they set themselves above their places, and makes themselves know­ers of our hearts, of which they are ignorant; It were better for them to judge themselves and repent of their own errors and deceits while there may be space of repentance; as for Gods searching and reproving us, we blesse him for it, and desire him yet in mercy and faithfulnesse to search us, and see if there be any way of iniqui­ty in us, and purge it out, and lead us in the way everlasting, but should we not search and try our hearts if God have searched them? had not God often searched the Prophet Jeremies, heart, and reproved him too? Yet he saith, Let us search and try our wayes and turn unto the Lord, Law. 3. 40. But as for their self-exaltations and [Page 70] vilifying and reproaching us, we shall leave them and bear their Rabshekah-like lan­guage, knowing that he that abases himself shall be exalted, when he that lifts up himself (as they proudly do) shall come down with a witness.

That their prevailing is not of the Lord otherwise then was foreshewed, the strong delusions be should send should prevail upon them that perish, is evident from what we have discovered; And therefore all those self-commendations of them­selves, are but so many deceitful words of vanity, we know they tread much in the Pharisees, and salse apostles steps, they compass Sea and Land as much to make pro­selites, and served their Master therein as freely as they do, and bragged of it too as they do (as the Apostle implies, 2 Cor. 11. 10, 11. and yet they lead people to de­struction.

Whereas they reproach us for laying open one anothers nakednesse, and prophecy we are not like to stand.

Jeremy was a Priest and a Prophet, and yet he laid open the nakedness, and re­proved the evil of many other Priests and Prophets, and yet Jeremy stood against all their endeavours; and so though we see and bewail other mens faults in the things we mention, and our own too, where we be convinced of them, that shall neither hin­der our standing or prevailing either against these or others.

They charge me J. H. with being one of the Dogs, that they say I say, look for their gain from their quarters.

I answer, I charged none so, nor sayes Isaiah so, but they are shepherds that can­not understand, they all look to their own way, every man for his gain from his quartor.

They say, I look for my gain from my Quarter, and am an hireling who plead for and take Tithes.

Reply. Alas, the beam of error in the main fundamental Doctrines of Christ is in their eyes, and how can they see moats in mine? They that erre in the foundation have no right judgement in any thing, but put light for darkness and darkness for light, though I do accept and take with thankfulness what God by his providence hath provided for my maintenance without my fore-seeing, and though that be Tithes or rather something in liew of Tithes, and plead for the lawfulness of them as neither repugnant to Gods Law nor mans, yet doth it not thence follow that I am guilty of what the Prophets changes them with; the Priests also had their several Sub­urbs and Quarters, whence God allowed them to take their provision; But that the Prophets therefore faulted them, or that they fell under that reproof is not to be thought, for Gods Prophets never faulted people for doing that which God allowed them, but for their looking for other unlawful gains, or for setting their hearts up­on their gains or profits, and not upon or more then upon their service, which that I do is more then these can tell, they and I must be judged by a more equal Judge. But I pray what Law of God or men makes it unlawful for the Nations that receive the Name of Christ to give the Tithes or Tenth for the maintenance of those that Preach the Gospel, or those that Preach it to take them if given by them? Seeing the Rulers are to serve the Lord, and both Rulers and People not to muzzel the mouth of the Ox that treads out the Corn; When they can prove that is not lawful for the Nations that receive the Scriptures and Gospel Doctrine, to give that honour and maintenance which the Scriptures require, by allotting the tenths, if [Page 71] they please, both before and under the Law given, 1 Tim. 5. 17, 18. or that in case they do and may do so, yet its not lawful for those that Preach the Gospel to receive them, then I shall leave off to plead for Tithes; in the mean time I shall bear their reproach as a piece of persecution from them, such as their power and malice can reach to, I doubt not but that they would deprive us of such maintenance too if they could.

Again whereas they say, People may see how they have given their money to uphold a company of ignorant blind watchmen.

I Answer, This reproach they may cast upon the Lord himself at the rate they write at, for by their inference, when God gave the Tythes and offerings to the Priests and Levites by a Law for ever, he gave them to uphold a company of blind watchmen, and ignorant profane persons, because many of them proved such, as ap­peares in Mal. 1. 2. 3. and yet even when such, the Lord faults the people for not bring­ing in and giving them that which he by his Law made theirs, and charged them with robbing him therein, Mal. 3 8, 9, 10. but even as their God could not be tru­ly charged with giving them the tenths, to uphold blind and evil persons, because he gave them them to another end, though to that end they abused them by not be­ing such as they should have been; Even so now what was given by former Kings, People, and Parliaments, was given to better ends then to uphold blind ig­norant and profane watchmen, though too many that receive it prove such, and yet as then though the Priests proved bad and evil, the people were thieves in detain­ing their Tythes; So are they now in detaining from the Ministers what the Law of the Nations in subordination to the Law of God hath made theirs for better ends then to what they use them. As for their reproaches we leave them to God to clear our innocency; That our principles are corrupt (as they slander us) and that they are made manisest to be so in their book is false, and I hope the Reader hereof is without all peradventure satisfied therein, and that the false and wicked principles are with themselves, as we have clearly discovered; To their self-commendations for their Preaching so freely, enough is said above, the false Apostles were never the better for their preaching freely but the worse, as the Devil is most pernicious when most Angel-like.

W. and F. They accuse us (p. 27.) of ignorance in pleading, that all are not hirelings that take hire, telling us that what is said, Zach. 11. 12. is spoken prophetically of Judas demanding hire of the high Priests for betraying Christ.

Reply. Herein the minding of the words will discover their ignorance and mi­stake, for it is said, I took my staffe beauty and cut it asunder, that I might break my Covenant which I had made with all the people, (did Judas ever make a Covenant with all the people which he break?) And it was broken that day, and so the poor of the people that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the Lord, (▪did the poor of the people waite upon Judas, and therein know the word of the Lord?) And I said unto them, if ye think good give me my price, and if not, forbear▪ So theyweighed for my price thirty pieces of silver, a goodly price that I was prized at of them, Mark, Was Judas prized at thirty pieces of silver, or did he leave his price to the High Priests till he had done his work, and demand it so indifferently then? Is it not plaine that the Prophets speaks of a price of one as a shepherd undertaking to feed the flock of the slaughter (& not as a Traytor to the shepherd) and taking to him [Page 72] two staves of a shepherd, one called beauty and the other bands, and so feeding the flock, and then demanding his price when he had so done, nor doth Mat 27. say the Prophet Zechariah spake of Judas demanding his price, but what is said he sayes was by the Prophet Jeremiah, and though the sum of the price (Christ was prized at, not Judas) agree, yet the rest of the expressions agree not, the one saith cast it to the Potter, and the other they gave it for the potters field; Christ is clearly in the Prophet, the shepherd feeding the flock, and asking the price and not Judas, as ye have falsly supposed; but you to cover your deceit, read only so far, then was fulfil­led that which was spoken by the Prophet, and there stop, knowing in Matthew it is Jeremiah and not Zechariah; Judas his saying was what will ye give me and I will deliver him to you, and the Prophets saying is give me my price, and a good­ly price that I was valued at by them, it was Christ that was valued sure, and not Ju­das, the price had been good enough for Judas to be valued at; But Christ ought to have had a better reward from them, and to have been far otherwise valued, even to have been honoured and believed in by them, and served with all they were and had; he that says in the Prophet give me my price, is the same that says, he was valued at a goodly price, which agrees not to Judas. For taking Tythes of all people in the Parish bounds, we have said enough above, the Nations are to give maintenance to the labourers amongst them, the Nations giving it in this or that manner in such or such bounds, there the labourers may lawfully take it.

That the hirelings and devouring beasts are in one Nature, is said by them not proved, the hireling is set by him that hires him to keep the sheep, men do not use to hire the Wolves and Foxes to do it, though yet as we noted the hireling is not discribed by our Saviour to be one that takes hire (for the labourer is worthy of his hire, and may take it, yea Christ hires all his servants, Mat. 20. 1. 15.) But he that when he sees the beasts come, leaves the flock to them to be devoured, which they that are hired ought not to do, though such as are all for their hire, or prefer that before the flock (as too many do) will do so, but they have found us hitherto (blessed be the Lord) resisting the Wolves, and stopping their mouths, though with the hazzard of our lives.

That the sheep are ever bid to leave the hirelings if with such, they say by their Magi­sterial Authority, but bring no proof for it, that they will hear Christs voice proves not that they should not hear those that are hired by him, for they that bring another voice are the Wolves not the hirelings that are distinguished from them; Did not Judas (who proved covetous and a thief, and who they said above was an hireling) when sent forth to preach the Gospel, carry Christs voice or Gospel with him: Though his end in preaching it was not sincere, yet the people were never faulted for hearing him, but wo denounced to them that heard not Christs Doctrine by any of them, Mat. 10. 4, 5. 14, 15. And Paul rejoyced that Christ was preached, though by such, Philip 1. 16, 17, 18 Therefore that proves not that the hireling is to be fled from, but the Wolfe that comes to devour from Christs voice, & brings a strange voice, as these men most manifestly do. Besides, they are out againe, (as in nothing al­most are they right) in saying, Such as Christ sends to feed his sheep in the pastours of Israel, are no hirelings, for in some sence he sends none but such, if by hire­ling they mean one that is hired by him, or receives his hire, his labourers are all hired into his Vineyards, Mat. 20. he is no such master as to send any to keep his flock for nothing, yea in the worst notion of an hireling, such as he hires and sends [Page 73] to keep his flock, may and sometimes do prove hirelings, as Judas by their own say­ings was such a one, and yet he was of Christs sending.

W. & F. That the law for tithes with us in Eng. is corrupt and unjust, and made by Apostates is rashly and hastily spoken and without proof as all things else they say, and being said by them who are Apostates from the faith indeed (as what we have seen of them above sufficiently discovers) is the less to be regarded, as also their proud boastings of themselves as Servants of the Lord, &c. when as the Lord that bought them they have denyed, and openly said they desire not to know him whom we expect from heaven to save us.

W. and F. They charge the faultinesse and evils in the people reproved by us as eviden­ces of our being false prophets, that have not profited the people, nor stood in Gods Coun­sel; for had we (say they of us) we should have turned the people that receive our Doctrine from the evil of their way.

To this we say, First, That most of the people we so reproved are such as receive not our Doctrine, and so their faults are no evidences that we are like the false pro­phets.

Secondly, That many that did receive Christs Doctrine and his Apostles, were such as we fault, and guilty of such evils, for some received it as the way side, some as a­mongst stones, some as amongst thorns, and so some that received the Apostles Do­ctrine received but the form of it, not the power, received the Grace of God in vain, and these ran into such evils as we faulted, as pride, covetousnesse, &c. yea and such had Ezekiel though a true Prophet as heard him, and he was to them as one that could play well on an Instrument, and shewed much love, yet their hearts went after their covetousness, Ezek. 33. 31, 32. will they say their hearers faults so often faulted by them were evidences that they were false prophets, and so condemn Christ and his Apostles as false Prophets that stood not in Gods Counsel? what strange inferen­ces make they, and how rash are they in their censures not to spare Christ or his A­postles at the rate they argue at.

Thirdly, We say, such as receive our Word and Doctrine heartily, are such as heartily received the Doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles, fearers of God and wor­kers of Righteousness, though they have their imfirmities as they also had, and are confessors of their trespasses as they also were, approved of God though railed at by those who endeavour to pervert them, because they will not be perverted by them; as for our wearing Cuffs and Ribbonds, and white boot-hose-tops (which we wear not) &c. Therein they shew themselves right Pharisees, that strain at a Gnat and swallow Camells, deny the Resurrection of the Body, and say the coming of Christ (that in which the dead in Christ are to be raised) is long since past, and make a stir about trifles and lawful Ornaments, concerning which Christ hath not put us in bondage or forbid them to us. We know that all (such) things are law­ful, though all things not expedient, but where expedient we may wear any of them with sobriety, that leads between both extreams of others pride in them, and these mens superstitious condemning them as unlawful. The Israelites were not faulted of God for wearing Jew­elsExod. 32. 2, 3, 4. 25, 26. and Ear rings, and Ornaments, they were faulted, and Aaron too for their casting them off to make an Idol of, and sure men and [Page 74] women had better wear such things soberly, as these men Pharisaically condemn, then make an Idol, or false Christ, or righteousness to themselves of their casting them off as they led them to do, as the false Apostles led their Disciples to do with their observations of times and dayes, &c.

VVhat they say of J. H. he leaves to the Lord to judge the truth of; and as for condemning our selves in what we judge others, we say, we desire to judge our selves and them too in what we are guilty, but not in what they foolishly fault us, like the Pharisees superstitiously faulting Christs Disciples for things he faulted them not▪

That the Deceivers and Subverters of Souls spake things that the peoples Consciences became in bondage to, and many things that through the effect of the Law in their Consci­ences, they could not deny but close with, is falsly denyed by them.

For how else were they transformed into Ministers of Righteousness, if they speak nothing suteable to the Letter of the Law of Righteousness, so as that the Consci­ences of people bearing witness to the truth of some of their sayings might be brought to listen to them and receive also their delusions?

They say▪ The Law in men is Light, and it is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus that freeth men from the power of sin and death.

VVherein still they play the juglers; for First, neither doth the Apostles say the Law is in every man, or in all the Gentiles, but he sayes, the effect or work of the Law, Rom. 2. 14.

Secondly, The Apostle sayes, The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus had made him free from the Law of sin and death, not onely from the power of sin and death, but from the law that convinces of sin, and holds in bondage for it, and sentences to death, as Rom. 7. 4. Gal. 3. 13. and 4. 4. clearly shew, even from under that Law that is in it self holy, and just, and good, yet by reason of the flesh could not justifie or save; Now these to hide their deceit, seeing that had they cited the Apostles words, they insinuate that something reproves of sin that is not Christ (as we said) they subtilly change his phrase and turn it into another thing. How they set themselves masters in mens Consciences, for all their feigned humility in denying that title we have before shewed often in this Treatise, and therefore here shall wave it.

W. and F. They say, They suffer much for righteousnesse sake, and for bearing Testi­mony against unrighteousnes, and we oft cause it, &c.

Who do they here commend? themselves and the Jesuites; for we said to get them­selves a party (as the Jesuites do) they expose themselves to some sufferings, &c. and they deny not (for they know its true) that the Jesuites do so too, and think we they do not say its for Righteousnesse sake, and for witnessing against unrighte­ousness, and that they may thank the Teachers often for it? Tis likely the Quakers and they are either the same, or of very great affinity, yet both their ends shall be according to their works as well as other false Apostles and false Prophets, who have exposed themselves too to great sufferings, partly of voluntary devotion and will-worship, and partly from people against their wills, for their falshood, as Baals Priests and Prophets did, 1 Kings 18. 28. 40. 2 Kings 10. 25. Collossians 2. 20. 21. 22.

W. and F. That we have not God nor abide in the Doctrine of Christ, they endeavour to prove against us, because we say we (of this Nation joyning our selves with them, as [Page 75] not without guilt) have neglected Christ and long abused the Truth.

But we deny their inference, for every neglect of Christ and abuse of his truth, de­prives not of God, nor is accompanied with such transgression, as not to abide in his Doctrine (for who then should stand? as Psal. 130. 3.) the Apostles had fellow­ship with God and Christ, when yet they had sins to confess, and so neglects of Christ and abuses of truth to be cleansed from; for in every sin is some neglect of Christ sure and abuse of Truth in some degree or other, and such things David, Da­niel, Isaiah and others confessed in effect, and yet in so doing, that is confessing their sins kept in with God, receiving daily forgiveness of them, and cleansing from them, and though they had some failings in the way yet they abide in it, and trans­grest not so as to leave the way. It is the Deceivers and deceived Generation, who leave the Doctrine of Christ for some corrupt mysterie and false imagination, that are guilty of such transgressions, and abide not in the truth, nor have either Father or Son; whatever their false boastings be or selfe justifications, they are fallen from Christ and be accursed. And G. W. knows that the Quakers were proved to be such in our late dispute with him to that purpose. The Pharisee that pleaded no sinner was out of the Doctrine of Christ, when the Publican that durst not look up because of his sins was nearer in it, they that say they have no sin deceive themselves, & the truth is not in them, and so they have not God and Christ, when they that confesse their ne­glects of Christ, and abuses of his truth shall find him faithful to forgive their sins and to cleanse them from all unrighteousnesse, they are in Gods Doctrine and way to life when the others are far wide of it, for he that humbleth himself shall be ex­alted, he that acknowledgeth his sin shall find Mercy, when he that hides and dis­sembles it, and lifts up himself as if innocent, is out of God and Christ, and shall be abased and confounded.

The rest being frothy and disdainful reproaches, we leave them to the judgement of the Lord, and shall look to him to plead our cause against them (which also bles­sed be his holy Name, he hath in some measure done since the first draught hereof, in our latter conflict with G. W. to his no small confusion) and to keep people from their strong delusions and specious but most pernicious deceits, having we trust so laid open their nakednesse, that all that will may see their folly manifest, and avoid them and all their Serpent-like windings and insinuations. Nor fear we to pro­ceed against them in Print, for ought that they threaten us with or can do against us, for the more they Print, the more shall their folly be made manifest, as the Spirit of God hath before signified, 2 Tim. 3. 6, 7, 8, 9. In the strength of God therefore and of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall stand against them and all their assaults that their printing can make against us, blessing him that he hath coun­ted us worthy (who in our selves are most unworthy) to be made his instruments to draw out their deceits into light, that people might be warned of them and so avoid them.

To their foolish Questions in their Post-script, we say,

First, That they begin their questions with a falshood, for we are not called Moori­ans or Manifestarians that we know of, nor are so; for we call no man our Father or Master after that forbidden manner, nor own we any such callings as they do that own themselves Calvinists, Lutherans, &c. nor are we Authors of what they say we hold forth in either the first or second branch of it; The first is, Pauls flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, nor can corruption inherit incor­ruption; And as to the second, that flesh and bones may; We say not that flesh and bones as natural in natural bodies may; we say that that Body of Christ which had Flesh and Bones, after the Resurrection of it, is taken up into heaven, and is in heaven, and the Scripture is clear for it, Luke 24. 39, 40. 51, 52. what change or transmutation further it had in its ascension and Glory we know not, but we believe that as the Apostles see him taken up into Heaven (and they see him taken up in that Body in which was Flesh and Bones) so he shall come again in like manner, Acts 1. 11. their reproaching us for that faith shall not drive us from it, because they are none of the True Apostles and Prophets, nor if they were might we give credit to them, bringing a contrary Doctrine to what we have from the Holy Apostles received, Gal. 1. 8, 9.

Quest. 1. THey ask if Eliahs flesh and bones could enter into Gods Kingdom, when he was taken up, and if his blood could not; Then when, where and how, and by whom was his blood taken and separated from his flesh and bones, and what is become of it?

Ans. Secret things belong to God, things revealed to us and to our children that we might believe and do them. Whether Eliahs body is in Heaven, or in what form or manner, we neither read it nor can determin nor they neither.

Quest. 2. And what is it that hinders the blood that it cannot enter the Kingdom as well as the flesh and bones, which ye say may; is the transgression of the blood greater then the transgression of the flesh and bones? And shall the flesh and bones be redeemed from corruption, and shall not the blood? What is the cause? For though the Lord doth what he pleaseth, yet doth he do any thing without a cause?

Ans. These are prophane Scoffs and Reproaches against Gods Truths, that the body which is sown a natural body, shall be raised a spiritual body after the pat­tern of Christ, who is the first fruits of them that sleep we believe, and that the Bo­dy of Christ raised had Flesh and bones in it we read and believe also, and that flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God we believe too, but prophane and vain bablings we are to shun, which will increase to more ungodlinesse, and eat like a Canker, especially the Word and Doctrine of such as Hymeneus and Philetus who erred concerning the Truth, and said, the Resurrection is past or made already, and [Page 77] thats these mens error as above shewed, when they said, The coming of Christ spoken of 1 Thes. 4. 15, 16. (in which the dead are to be raised) was while the Apostles & believers lived and remained. Therefore these words and prophane bablings of theirs, we and all people are to avoid, being wise to sobriety, knowing that God hath no cause higher then himself, and his own good pleasure in what he doth, and that he gives not an account of all his matters, and what he keeps secret is not for us to search.

Quest. 3, Whether do you own that Doctrine, that when Christ appeared amongst his Disciples after his Resurrection, when the doors were shut, John 29. 19. that then his bo­dy being spiritualized, it glided in at the key-hole of the door? Which Doctrine Thomas Moore Senior hath formerly preaobed as some hath affirmed who heard him.

Answ. No, but we owne that this is a slander raised maliciously against Thomas Moor Senior, either of their own heads, or by some that render him evil, for good and hatred for his love, to whom appertains, and upon whom will fall Judas his curse and portion if they repent not, mentioned Psal. 109. 5, 6, 7. &c.

Quest. 4. And where do the Scriptures say that flesh and bones may inherit the Kingdom Heaven?

Answ. Where do we say so or in any tearms but what the Scriptures own? The Scriptures say, Christ shall so come even in like manner as his Disciples see him go up, and he was taken up in that Body, in which was flesh and bones as before, which Body is now his Glorious Body; further we affirm not or inquire not.

Quest. 5. And whereas you John Horn and Thomas Moor in page 16. say, That Sathan doubtlesse may reprove of some sins, and presse to some duties; now have you not herein shewed your selves to be ministers of Sathan and not of Christ, &c?

Answ. No, no more then Paul was in saying, Satan himself is transformed into an Angel of light, 2 Cor. 11. 13, 14. sure an Angel of light will reprove of sin and presse to duty, and if Satan do not so as to form or outside at least, he is not in the form of an Angel of Light.

Whereas they ask further, What duties or any things that are duties doth Satan press men to? bidding us answer directly, or let shame cover our faces, which (they say) will at length come upon us for our deceits.

We answer, To such duties as in which his Ministers may be transformed into Mi­nisters of Righteousnesse, which they could not be if not Zealous for some things that are in their place and order in duties, 2 Cor. 11. 14. as to be diligent to go up and down, and preach Righteous Works or VVorks of Righteousnesse together with their own evil mixtures, and to evil unrighteous ends, that he might by drawing them from gross evils (as the Pharisees their Proselites from Heathenism and gross idolatry) make them more Children of hell by spiritual iniquity and wickedness, and so more serviceable to his designs; and so he presses the Quakers to reprove many fins and evils (which indeed is a duty ought to be done in Gods way, but as they do it they serve Sathan in it, making it a means) to beguile unstable souls to their delusion. The Lord stop their mouths, as he hath promised in Psal. 63. 11.

A multitude of Questions under 26. Heads, sent by George Whitehead, and since own­ed by him, and by John Whitehead and George Fox the younger, as sent by them all, to John Horn, and Thomas Moor junior,

for this they say in their pretended Answer to us subscribed by all the three, that they sent queries in Manuscript to John Horn and Thomas Moor, (see the latter end of their 33. page) meaning these, they are as followeth.

For John Horn, and Thomas Moor (both Teachers) who disputed against George Whitehead at Lin, the 15. th. day of the 7th. month (59.) A few questions of concernment for them, or any that own them to answer directly.

  • 1. WHether do you own that Christ hath two Bodies, one in Heaven, and an­other on Earth, yea, or nay?
  • 2. Whether the body of Christ which is the sulnesse of God, whereof the Saints are mem­bers, is a Body of flesh and bones in the Heavens, yea or nay?
  • 3. Whether did the body of flesh and bones, wherein Christ suffered, descend from Hea­ven into the lower parts of the Earth, yea or nay? Seeing no man hath ascended up to Hea­ven, but the Son of man which came down from Heaven; And it is the same that descend­ed into the lower parts of the Earth, that ascended far above all Heavens, that be might fill all things. Eph. 4. 9, 10. Psal. 68. 18.
  • 4. What and where are the lower parts of the Earth whereinto Christ descended from his Father?
  • 5. And if he which descended into the lower parts of the Earth, be a person of flesh and bones, which ascended far above all Heavens, what is that place he is in far above all Heavens, which is not Heaven?
  • 6. Whether do you believe, that all the Heavens are local places one above another, and above the Firmament called Heaven, yea or nay?
  • 7. Can a body of flesh and bone be both in the Heavens, and far above them all, and fill all things at one and the same time, yea or nay?
  • 8. Seeing Thomas Moor did not own that Christs body is a carnal body in Heaven, how is it that you say his body is a body of flesh and bones (or a humane body) without blood in it, is not a fleshly body Carnal?
  • 9. Can any locall place containe that Glory which Christ had with the Father before the World was, wherein he is Glorified?
  • 10. Where, or how came Christ into the house where his Disciples were met, after his Resurrection, the doors being shut, John 20. 19. 26. Have not some of you said that then his body, being Spirituallized, it glided in at the Key-hole of the door? for so it hath been spoken concerning some of your way.
  • 11. Whether the same Christ, who in the dayes of his flesh suffered persecution, whose body was subject to hunger and afliction, be not made a quickening Spirit, 1 Cor. 15. 45. And yet his flesh and blood is so nigh to every true believer, that his Flesh is his meat indeed, and his Blood is his drink indeed?
  • 12. And if the Blood of Christ that was shed be the drink indeed, and the purger of the [Page 79] Conscience, where is that blood if not in Christs flesh, as you affirmed? Seeing that men must drink the Blood of Christ, as well as eat his Flesh, or else they have no life in them.
  • 13. And was the Blood of Christ that was shed seperate from his Body, and then bear­ing Record in the Earth, when John wrote these words in 1 John 5 8.
  • 14. And how can the Blood of Christ, either cleanse away from sin, or give life to any, if the Life of Christ be not in it, as Thomas Moor affirmed?
  • 15. How many comings of Christ do you own, seeing you yet have his second coming with­out sin unto Salvation to look for?
  • 16. What are these seeds that must every one have its own Body in the Resurrection, and whether are they Natural, or Spiritual?
  • 17. And must not every seed have a body of its own nature?
  • 18. And whether the wicked upon whom after Death Judgement is come, whose souls are in Hell, must afterward come out of Hell again to receive a second Judgement?
  • 19. Whether the receiving Bread and Wine, to shew the Lords Death, be to continue an Ordinance in the Church, till the end of the World, yea or nay?
  • 20. And whether doth the receiving Bread and Wine alone, without an outward Passeo­ver, really figure forth the Death of Christ?
  • 21. And how must the life of Christ be shewen forth, and when, if People must receive Bread and Wine, as a continuing Ordinance in this Life, alwayes to shew forth the Death of Christ?
  • 22. What is your ground for sprinkling the Children of them you count believers, have you ever a command from God, or evident example for it, if you have shew it?
  • 23. Whether do you own such Teachers as take Tythes, or Preach for hire, or for gifts and rewards, yea or nay?
  • 24. What is the Soul of man, which the Word of God is to save, and what is the differ­ence between the Soul and the Spirit, seeing the word of God divides them asunder?
  • 25. Whether men must be justified by the same Righteousness of Christ in them which sanstifies them, yea or nay?
  • 26. What is that Light with which Christ lighteth every man that cometh into the world, which Thomas Moor said is both Natural and Spirituall? Name one Light that eve­ry man is lighted with that is both Natural and Spiritual, or else let your silence be an acknowledgement of your Ignorance touching the Light, and that you have confuted your selves; for Thomas Moor would not acknowledge that every man hath a Spiritual Light in him, or is inlightned with a Spiritual Light; But that every man should in due time be enlightned with such a Light, when the seed is sown, or by the Preaching of the Gospel, what says he then to this, the Gospel is preached in every Creature under Heaven?

Answer directly, in simplicity, without evading from these things propounded to you, as you did evade and cavil at the dispute, and Thomas Moor severall times fled from his own words, and John Horn (when you could not answer to our Question, where the Blood of Christ is, which you say is the foundation of Faith) in his deceit asked us the same question again; leave off such deceit for shame, and come down to the simplicity of God in you, and speak not evil of the things you know not; And if you answer these questions, send, or give your answer to some of our friends in Lin to be conveyed to me,

Who am a friend to the Truth, But a witnesse against all Deceit, Hypocrisie, and dead formality that is among you. George Whitehead.

An Answer to the Questions forementioned.

THese Questions give so full intimation of their Antichristian Spirit, and give us such occasion to discover it to others, and so evidence the Truth of God in the great things of his Doctrine against their endeavours to make it void, That since all the three forementioned have owned them, as sent by them all, We have judged it seasonable, and tending to the profit of many that they may be saved, to make them with this answer publick, which answer is owned by John Horn, and Thomas Moor senior, and Thomas Moor junior.

And in it we desire the Readers to note, that we direct not our speech to them, because they have been already discovered, and proved deceivers, and Antichrists, and as such rejected by us; But in this we apply our selves to the Reader in general, intending herein a farther discovery of that mysterie of iniquity and spirit of de­ceit and Antichrist, that works privily in and by them, to a denying the Lord that bought them, and that by a manifestation of the Truth, without hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftinesse as they have done; That so we may be instrumental in instructing the Ignorant, strengthening the weak, and edifying and preserving believers in their most holy Faith; And if yet it might be to any of them in undeceiving the deceived, that are already turned aside after Satan, to fol­low the pernicious wayes of this spirit of Antichrist, as found in this people called Quakers, or in any other that appear not under that name or form with them, for the same spirit is working in and walking in by many others.

1. Que. Their first question is, whether do you own that Christ hath two Bodies, one in Heaven, and another on Earth, yea or nay?

Answ. Here are two questions in this one, Namely, Whether we own that Christ hath two Bodies? 2. VVhether one in Heaven, and another on Earth, and in both parts ambigiously propounded in such generall and doubtfull tearms, as are capable of divers acceptations, without declaring in what sence they use any of those generall tearms in the query, so that it is not capable of receiving a single and direct answer as propounded by them. For 1. The word body is used diversly in Scripture, sometimes for divers members of flesh and bone compact together, and united in one Person to one personal Head, 1 Cor 12. 12. 14. 20. Rom. 12. 4. And in this sence the man hath a body of his own distinct from his wives, and the woman a bo­dy of her own distinct from her husbands, 1 Cor. 7. 4.

Sometimes for divers persons compact together and united in one politick or mystical body under one Governour as their head, or for such society, union and fellowship made up of divers persons, as in which they are joyntly set and compact together for the good of each other, and therein for others benefit. So the man and his wife are one flesh, one body (who yet in the sore mentioned sence of the word Body, have each their distinct body of their own, as we shewed) see Mat. 19. 5, 6. Eph. 5. 28. 29. 33. 1 Cor. 6. 16. So also divers persons united, and set in order in a Common-wealth, or corporation, under one Head or Government, so as each may serve for the good of the other, and all joyntly for the good of the [Page] whole; are one body not personall, but politick, where every member hath his par­ticular personall body, distinct from each other, as Eph. 2 12. with Cap. 3. 6.

In some answerable sence likewise, the words the Body of Christ are used in Scriptures in a two-sold sence, as to say, 1. For that body of his flesh in which the Word was made flesh, and came and dwelt among men on the Earth, in which ma­ny members of flesh and bones, hands and feet were united in one personal body, even in that one body, which as in the Counsel of God foreordained from the be­ginning, so in due time was actually prepared for him when he came into the World, by the gift and appointment of the Father, in the power and operation of the Holy Ghost; In which he was made of a woman, made under the Law, to redeem them that were under the Law, and in which himself bore our sins on the Tree, dyed, and was buried, and the third Day rose again, and appeared oft to his Disciples, and affirmed and demonstrated himself to be that very He, in the same body (having flesh and bones, hands and feet) which they before had seen; yea, the same in which, while some of them beheld him, he was taken up from them, and carryed into Heaven, and there compleated the offering up of himself in that his own Body once for all; And in which he remaineth on the right hand of God in Heaven it self, till the times of the Restitution of all things, when he will come again, and appear in the same body, as visibly as he went up, and in the Glory he now possesseth for us in Heaven with the Father, Col. 1. 22. with John 1. 14. Heb. 10. 5. 10. with Mat. 1. 18 22. Luke 1. 34, 35. and Gal. 4 4. 1 Pet. 2. 24. Luke 23. 46. 52. 23. and 24. 3. 6, 7. 36. to the end. John 20. Acts 1. 9. 11. and 3. 21.

His body in this sence of the word is called the body of his flesh as distinguished from his body in such a sence, as his Church spiritually and by Faith united with him are said to be his body, see Col. 1 22. 24. And as distinguished from our personal bodies, that while in this mortal state are vile, the Body of Christ in this first sence, as raised from the dead and exalted, is called his Glorious Body, Phil. 3. last.

2. The same words, the Body of Christ, are also used to expresse to us a society or Congregation of many distinct persons united to him by Faith, as their Head and Husband; And so all those that by the love of God commended by the Holy Ghost through the blood of Christ, and the Excellency of Christ discovered in the Preaching of his Crosse, are Redeemed and drawn off from other objects, and brought in to believe in him, and so united by Faith to him, and in love to him and one another, to be ordered by the Royall Law; These are his Congregation, House, or Church, and so his Body, whereof he in his personal body is the head. And they (each in their distinet personal bodies while here on Earth) Spiritually, and by Faith members of him, & in love and fellowship members also of one another; Even as he that is joyned to a Harlot or Woman is one flesh, and so they twayn are one flesh, and so one body in a fleshly union, or union in the flesh; So in some answerable sence, he that is joyned to the Lord is one Spirit, and so of that one bo­dy in the unity of the Spirit, Eph. 4. 3. 4. Yea even their particular bodies in this unity of the Spirit are the members of Christ, and so of the one mystical body of Christ, of his House, Temple or Church, yet each member hath his distinct perso­nall body, distinct from each other, and all distinct from his personal body, in [Page] which he is the head of his body the Church, 1 Cor. 6. 15. 17. Eph. 1. 22, 23. with Act. 20. 28. 1 Cor. 12. 13. 27. Rom. 12. 5. Again,

2. (To have) may be diversly said, As to say,

1. A man may have something as part of himself, and so our Saviour even after his Resurrection from the dead is said by himself to have flesh & bones, hands and feet, (so as a spirit hath not) and so to have them, as of the essence of himself, handle me and see, that is I my self; For the Word was made flesh, and therefore even that flesh or body could not be holden of Death, Luke 24. 39. John 1. 14. with Acts 22. 24. 31. &c. Or,

2. A man may have other things, or persons, as relations to him by marriage, Covenant, or by Blood; So a man is said to have his wife, and the woman her husband, 1 Cor. 7. 12. 13. & likewise instructed to have one another, according to such covenant and relation, ver. 2. So persons are said to have children, or nephews, as relation in the flesh, though neither is the husband the wife, nor the wife the husband, nor is the child the father, or the father the child, &c. But these are distinct relations, and distinctly related to, and so had by each other as well as distinct persons; In some answerable sence, it may be said, Jesus Christ hath his Body the Church, as his spouse and children, and they have him as their Head, Hus­band, Father and Lord, in that Covenant and Relation that is in the unity of the Spirit, as appears by those comparisons and instructions from them, Ephes. 5. 23. 32. with Chap. 4. 4. 6. &c. And yet Christ is not the Church, but the Head and Husband of it, and so neither is he who is the head of his body the Church. A body in such a sence of himself alone, without his members that are so Mystically and Spiritually, I say, not in such a sence as they joyned to him as their head, are said to be his Body. Whence as he in his own personal body (now glorified) is the head of a body in the last sence, namely of his body the Church, in such a sence, and in such consideration of him, they are said to be his fulnesse, who yet receives nothing from them, but filleth all in all; But he as the head of the body, and so that his body in the last sence is made up and compleated of them, by what they receive from him, and are made in him, Ephes. 1▪ 22. 23. And so neither are they any of them or all of them together the Christ, the head of the Body, or Husband of the Church; But his Body, Church, or Spouse, as joyned to him Spiritually and by Faith, and members thereof in particu­lar, 1 Cor. 12. 12. 13. 27. Eph. 5. 23. 25. 32. The having each other in this sence is not such as confounds the distinction of persons or relations, or makes the one the other.

3. One may also truly be said to have things or persons which yet he hath not in such relation, nor are so related to him, and that either in a propriety or interest in them, by right of purchase, gift, or otherwise, or in possession.

And so according to these divers sences in which these words are used, we might answer to this first question, whether Christ hath two bodies; In some sences yea, and in others nay.

But for the help of others, we answer more fully thus.

1. If by bodies, be understood personal bodies, and also by having them be meant as in the last mentioned sence in which one may be said to have things, or persons, as we are left at liberty to take any sence in which the words are used (whe­ther they so propounded it out of weaknesse or wickednesse we will not determine) [Page] then thus we answer; Christ hath an innumerable multitude of bodies as well as souls, even the bodies and spirits of all men are his, and of right in his dispose; For,

1. He hath interest in them by creation, for all things were made by him, and for him, John 1. 3. Col. 1. 16, 17. and by redemption, for he gave himself a ransom for all, and hath bought them all, even them that deny him, he hath redeemed them from the curse of the Law, to be under his Government, dispose and judgement; and by means thereof,

2. He hath the dispose and dominion of them committed to him; for the Fa­ther judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement to the Son, and hath given him authority to execute judgement also, because he is the Son of man.

All things are delivered unto him of his Father, even the Heathen for his inheri­tance, and the utmost parts of the Earth for his possession. And therefore also,

3. He shall inherit all Nations, yea all shall be raised and judged by him at the last day, for to this end Christ both dyed, rose and revived, that he might be Lord of both dead & living, whether we live therefore or die we are the Lords, 1 Tim. 2. 6. 2 Pet. 2. 1, Gal. 3. 13. with Rom. 5 18 Col. 1. 20. John 12. 31, 32. and 5. 22. 27, 28. Math. 11. 27. Psal. 2, 6, 7, 8. Rom. 14. 7, 8, 9. &c. who can number the bodies he hath in this sence on the Earth, surely even these deceivers, that privily deny the Lord that bought them, and those deceived by them are all his, and shall be judged by him, even by the man Christ Jesus, by whom God hath ordained to judge the World in Righteouenesse, whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath rais­ed him from the dead, Job 12. 16. John 5. 22. 29. Acts 17. 31. And as for the bodies of those that with the heart believe on him, they are his in a more peculiar manner, even members of him, as is before shewed.

But, 2. If by Bodies be understood personal Bodies, and by having be meant, as in the first mentioned sence, his having them as of the essence or being of himself; Then our answer to the question is nay; There are not divers personal bodies of Christ, not two that may each properly and peculiarly be called the Body of Christ, but there is one (which is more then these men believe, and that which they privi­ly endeavour to deny in these queries) and he hath it and continueth in it for ever. And it is the same (and no other) that was prepared for him in the womb of the Virgin, in which he appeared once in the last ages of the World to put away sin by the Sacrifice of himself; And in this his own Body himself bore our sins on the Tree, and being raised from the dead the third day, is now passed into the Heavens, and there received by the Father, till the times of the restitution of all things; and be­cause this man continueth for ever, therefore he hath an unchangeable priesthood, & is now appearing in the presence of God in the Heaven it self for us, the man Christ Jesus, the Mediator between God and man, and great high Priest over the House of God, even Jesus the Son of God passed into the Heavens for us; For if he were on Earth, he were not such a Priest as becomes us to have, 1 Tim. 2. 5. 6. Heb. 7. 23. 26. and 8. 1. 3 4▪ and 9▪ 24▪ and 10. 5. 12.

Again, 3. If Bodies be understood in the 2d. sence of the word body mentioned, namely for societies or congregations of distinct persons united and gathered to­ther under one head or Governour. And his having them be understood in the second sence of having mentioned, namely by donation and Covenant as his [Page] Church, or Spouses Then to the question, we further answer, That in such a sence he hath one body, and no more, forasmuch as he the Head and Hus­band, to whom, being joyned Spiritually, and by Faith they are of his Mysti­cal body, is but one, that body can be no more but one, for to them all there is but one Head, Husband, and Lord; They are all built upon one foundation, even Jesus Christ himself, he being the chief corner Stone, in whom the building fitly framed together groweth into an Holy Temple in the Lord, Eph. 2. 18. 22. So though there be many members, and also many particular societies of be­lievers upon Earth, yet they all make but one body, or general Assembly and Church of the first-born; Yea all believers now living upon the Earth, and all dead as to the flesh, even all the dead in Christ that sleep in Jesus, whose spirits are made perfect are but one body of Christ, in that sence of the word bo­dy, as Eph. 4. 4. with 1 Cor. 12. 12, 13. with Ephes. 2. 18. 22. Heb. 12. 22. 25. And this his body may be said to be partly in Heaven, partly on Earth, for there in Heaven with him are the spirits of Just men made perfect; Unto whom al­so, those unfeigned believers living upon the Earth are come by Faith, which is the evidence of things not seen, the confidence of things hoped for, and so Spiritually and by Faith have their conversation in Heaven, from whence also they look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall change their vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his Glorious body.

So then, the body of Christ is but one in any one sence of the word body, though as the word body is used in divers sences, he hath a body which is pecu­liarly called his Body, or the body of Christ in two sences; As the head of some believing women is spoken of in a threefold sence, 1 Cor. 11. her person­all head, her husband, and Christ; yet in proper and strict speaking she hath but one head, because her head is but one in any one sence of the word head, but one personal head, but one husband, but one Christ, yet her head in each of these sences is distinct, yea every member of the Body of Christ the Church hath a personal head of their naturall body distinct from Christ the mystical head of them all.

So hath Christ a personal body, and members called the body of his Flesh, his now Glorious Body, Col. 1. 22. Phil. 3. 21. Distinct from his bo­dy the Church, Col. 1. 24. else he could be no meet or proper head for such a bo­dy, or Congregation where every member hath a particular personal body and members distinct. But take body in any one sence of the word Body, and there is not two but one Body of Christ, as before is shewed, nor indeed are any of his Body the Church, but such as are by Faith united and joyned unto that one Lord in that his one personal body now Glorified with the Father, as their Head, Lord, and Husband, Nor are the head and members divided, but their union is spiritual, and by Faith, not sensual; The head is the fore-runner, and in that his own personal body in which he bore our sins, and is the head of his body the Church; He is already entred into Heaven, whether the members in their particular bodies are not in a like sence entered, but by Faith and hope do enter, and so have their conversation in Heaven from whence they look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall change their vile body, that it may be fashioned into the likensse of his Glorious Body, for here they walk by Faith, and not by sight. And while they are at home in the clay Taber­nacle, [Page] flesh, or natural body, they are absent from the Lord, in a like sence as at home in the body, they are not otherwise present with him now, but in Spirit, and by Faith, Heb. 4. 3. 10. 14. and 6. 19, 20. 2 Cor. 5. 6, 7. Heb. 10. 37, 38. Phil 3. 20, 21. Col. 3. 1. 4.

Such therefore are not of the true Church or body of Christ but of Anti­christ as are vainly puft up with their sensual minde, not holding the Head, &c. Col. 2. 18, 19. And that these men are such appeares in their seeking to insinuate by this query, and the rest, that to believe and acknowledge that the man Christ Jesus continues, even in that body of his flesh now Glorified with the Father, as the Head of the Church, in a personal being distinct from his body the Church, and from every member thereof, is to make Christ to have two Bodies, one in Heaven, and another on Earth; and therefore they endeavour privily to make a nullity of his personal body, the body of his flesh, or to deny his still having it, and possessing now in it that Glory which he had with the Father before the World was, and so hold not the head, forasmuch as he is not otherwise the Head of his Body the Church; But as now he is in that personal body Glorified, and because this man continues ever in that Name and Glory of his Father, which through sufferings in the same Body he hath obtained for us, that by him our Faith and Hope might be in God.

We have been the larger in this first Answer, as well to help the weak in un­derstanding things that differ, or are distinct, that so they may discern and approve things that are excellent, as also to shew the corruptnesse of their way, in confounding things clearly distinct and distinguished in the Scripture, and seeking by such confusion, to work their ends in deceiving the simple, which also may further appeare in their following Queries, and the more easily by the help of what hath been said in answer to this.

W. and F. Quest. 2. Whether the Body of Christ which is the fulnesse of God, whereof the Saints are members, is a Body of Flesh and Bones in the Heavens? yea or nay.

Answ. This Question also is foolish, and unlearned; for besides that it pri­vily pursues the same designe of denying the remaining of the being of the personal Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that in the same way with the former, by confounding things clearly distinct, &c. as aforesaid. It also takes that for granted as the ground of it, which is not granted by us in those ex­pressions, it being no where so expressed in the Scripture, of the body of Christ in either sence; Namely, That the body of Christ is the fulnesse of God.

Of him in his own personal body, in which he is the Head of his body the Church, the Scriptures saith, in him dwelleth all the fulnesse of the God­head bodily, Col. 2. 9. with Capter 1. 19. Not that his body is the fulnesse of God, or of the God-head, but that dwells in him bodily, that so of his fulnesse, we might receive.

And of his Body the Church, he saith it is his fulnesse, namely, the fulness of Christ, as he is the Head of a Body, viz. of an union of many persons in one Body; now although that head be God blessed for ever, and he and the Fa­ther [Page] are one (though distinct in respect of the manner of their being in the God-head, and as so distinct as Christ is the Head of the Church, so the Head of Christ is God, 1 Cor. 11. 3. So although Christ who is the Head of the Church, be God) yet the Church is not said to be his fulnesse simply as he is God, but as he is the Head of the Church, and that is, as he is God man in one Person, the Man Christ Jesus now raised from the dead, and continuing ever with the the Father, even as so considered he is the Fountain of all fulnesse for us, and filleth all in all, compare Ephes. 1. 20. 23. with chap. 4. 8, 9, 10 &c. and Col. 1. 13. 19. and 2. 9. 19. Heb. 7. 23, 24, 25. as so considered he is the Head of the Church, and as he in that his personal body is the Head and Husband, so the Church is his fulnesse, even as Eve was Adams, or as the Natural Body is the Heads fulnesse, the Church is that in which is the fulnesse, or compleating of him as he is the Head of a body, viz. of an union of many persons in one body, for so as we have shewed before, he could not have a Body in such a sence, had he not members, many Persons united to himself as their Head, Governour and Husband. Further also their Querie is perverse and corrupt, in that it intimately charges us, as calling the Personal Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, now Glorified a Body of flesh and bones, which is a slander, for it is not our expression, but theirs used oft by way of derision and reproach of him; and though possibly we may sometimes have let it pass without consideration or particular notice of it, in some discourse that may have passed between us, yet the expression we own not, but say with the Scripture, That the Personal Body of Christ hath flesh and bones, hands and feet, even the same in which he once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, truly called the Body of his flesh, and in that very body, he is now glorified; yea this we have divers times asserted to them in answer to such their deriding expressions, and still do assert, that the Personal Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, for which we contend, is not a body without a spirit, which a body of flesh and bones may be; yet we are so far from being ashamed of the Words of Christ, and bearing the reproach cast upon his Glo­rious Body by them; That as we know and believe as the Scripture hath said, so we confesse that Jesus Christ was made of the Seed of David after the Flesh, Rom. 1. 3. made of a woman, Gal. 4. 4. and so took part of flesh and blood with mankind, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the Devil, &c. Heb. 2. 14, 15, 16. and so he dyed as man mortal, but he rose again the same body spiritual and immortal, his Body not a spirit, though spiritual, yet truly a body, yea the body of a man, and in that sence humane. The same he that dyed and was buried, is risen and ascended, having flesh and bones, even such as before his ascention was seen and handled by his Disciples, and so himself saith of himself, and did walk, speak and eat before them, and shewed them his hands and his feet to confirm the same, Luke 24. 36. 44. John 20. and 21. And while he blessed them and they beheld him, he was parted from them, and carried up into Heaven, Luke 2. 50, 51. Acts 1. 9, 10, 11. And as his Disciples that saw were blessed, so he hath also pronounced them blessed that have not so seen and yet believe, John 20. 29. 1 Pet. 1. 8. so that though we call not his personal body a body of flesh and bones, yet believing his sayings, we are not ashamed to confesse he hath flesh and bones, though not [Page] carnal or mortal like mortal men, whole life is in then blood, and may be let out with a Sword, and must die; But his, though humane, yet spiritual and immortal, and because of that suffered, and done by him in that Body in which he hath overcome death, and so received gifts in the man; its by way of Eminency and Peculiarity called his flesh and his bones, and he in that body is in the Heaven of Heavens, nor is there any but the Spirit of Satan in Antichrist that will move any to deny or reproach this as these do.

From all which considerations, we refuse this Question as thus stated by them, as foolish, unlearned, corrupt and prophane; But yet for the help of the weak, if it be queried what is that his Body of which he is said to be the Head, and which is said to be his fulnesse as he is the Head, Ephes. 1. 23.

We answer, Not his Body in the first sence, but in the second, viz. not such an union of many Members in one Body, as in which they are all united in one person or personal body; but the union of many persons (believers or Persons so imputed) that have each a distinct personal Body, in one mystical body, Church or Congregation under that one head, who hath also a distinct personal body of his own in which he is the head, and also the Saviour of that his Body, the Church, see the Text, Ephes. 1. 22, 23. with chap. 5. 23. 28.

If it be further Queried, whether the Body of Christ in this sence or his Body the Church have flesh and bones, its already answered,

1. He who is the Head of it hath a distinct Body that hath flesh and bones (now glorified) in which he is the Head.

2. The members also that are living on the earth have each their distinct per­sonal bodies that have flesh and bones, yea they are yet partakers of flesh and blood, in weaknesse and mortality, and their bodies vile, Phil. 3. 21. Rom. 8. 10. 23. Heb. 2. 14.

If yet further any Querie whether this Body be in Heaven, it is likewise alrea­dy answered,

The Head who is their forerunner is already entered, and so they in him as in their head, and with him by the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him (he saith not them) his own personal Body (not theirs) from the dead, see Col. 2. 12. with Ephes. 1. 20, 21, 22. and Chap. 2. 6. Heb. 6 19 20. with Chap. 4. 3. But they in their particular bodies are not so entered, but while at home in the flesh or natural Body, in its mortal state are absent from the Lord (as is shewed in the Answer to their first Queries) nor are they meet so to enter, for flesh and blood (man in his present mortal and unchanged state) cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption, and they are yet dead (though Christ be in them, and the spirit made alive in a first fruits because of Righteousnesse, yet) the body is dead because of sin; and so even they that have the first fruits of the spirit, are yet waiting for the adoption, that is, the Redemption of the Body; for their life is yet hid with Christ in God, when Christ who is their life shall appear, then shall they also appear with him in glory, having their vile bodies fashioned into the likenesse of his Glorious Body, 2 Cor. 3. 6, 7, 8. Phil. 1. 23, 24 and 3. 21. Rom. 8. 10. 23. with Col. 3. 1. 3, 4. 1 Cor. 15. 50. 53.

W. F. 3. Querie, Whether did the body of flesh and bones wherein Christ suffered de­scend from Heaven into the lower parts of the earth, yea or nay? seeing no man hath as­cended up to Heaven, but the Son of man which came down from Heaven, and it is the same that descended into the lower parts of the earth, that ascended far above all hea­vens, that he might fill all things, Ephes. 4. 9, 10. Psal. 68. 18.

Answ. In this Querie is first an intimate acknowledgement (though it may seem in a deriding way of Christs suffering in a Body of flesh and bones) But the intention of this Querie with the following, is to deny and reproach the acknowledgement of the Resurrection of Christ and his ascention into Heaven in that very body in which he suffered, dyed and was buried, in the denyal of which his personal Cross of sufferings is made of none effect. The Apostles Preaching rendred vain and false, and faith in him of no effect, yea the general Resurrection of the dead is also herein denyed, 1 Cor. 15. 13. 19. &c. And to this purpose there is an Argument contained in this Querie, by which they would inforce the denial of the foresaid acknowledgement of the Resurrection and Ascention of Jesus the Lord, in that body of his flesh in which he suffered, viz. That that body in which he suffered in the flesh, did not descend from Hea­ven into the lower parts of the earth, and therefore neither is that ascended up to Heaven, seeing no man hath ascended up to Heaven, but he that came down from Heaven, &c. So that here is more then a Querie, even an Argument from their intimate and implyed denial of the descension of that body, to in­force the denial of his ascention, the corruption and foolishnesse of which we shall shew in our answer to the Querie; to which we say,

1. The Scriptures they mention give this plain answer, That he, even the Son of man came down from Heaven and descended into the lower parts of the earth, which we believing do therefore confess as the Scripture hath said; for although that his personal Body in which he was made man and became the son of man was actually prepared for him, or the preparation of it was made in the earth, according to that prophetical speaking of it long before (in which by a word in the time past first, & another expression in the time to come following, it is signified to be then vertually, but not actually done) the Lord hath crea­ted a new thing in the earth, a woman shall compass a man, Jer. 31. 22. for he was made flesh of a woman, John 1. 14. Rom. 1. 3. Gal. 4 4 and therein curi­ously framed in the lower parts of the earth, Psal. 139 15. And so as to the mat­ter of his Body, as of the Seed of David, it was not before materially existent in Heaven, otherwise then in the Counsel of God decreeing and fore ordain­ing it, and power effecting it, and word made flesh in it, yet the Son of man is truly said to come down from Heaven, to have come forth from the Fa­ther.

Because that Eternal Word, the only begotten Son of God, that was made flesh, in that one body prepared for him, and is now become the Son of man, He came down from Heaven; for the Word was in being before he was made flesh, he was in the beginning with God, John 1. 1, 2. And that word not on­ly took or entered into flesh, but was made flesh, verse 14. So as the Word that was in the beginning, and the flesh which in due time he was made (and so is not now in making) is one person, one Son, who is both the Son of God, and [Page 89] the Son of man, yea the two natures, that of God and that of man (though distinct and not confounded) are united in one person, so as what is said of either nature, may (though not in respect of the nature, yet) in respect of person be said of both. As for instance; In respect of the nature of man, and as man, and as pertaining to the flesh which he was made, he dyed, 1 Pet: 2. 24. and 3. 18. and 4. 1. (not is dying or suffering in that personal Body of his, Rev. 1. 18.) yet in respect of the person, and because of the union of the two natures in one person, his sufferings or blood is truly called Gods own Blood, Acts 20. 28. and so its said, God laid down his life for us, 1 John 3. 16. so in this businesse, the Son of man came down from Heaven, in as much as he, that person, that is the Son of man, the Eternal Word and onely begotten Son of God that was made flesh, he descended and came forth from the Father, and came down from Heaven; Yea also, when he was on earth in his Body, and not as then in that respect ascended, yet then when he as God, the Son of God, the word (that was made flesh) in Heaven with the Father, yea likewise in the vertue and preciousnesse of his being the Son of man, and what he had undertaken to do in that Body on the Earth, John 3. 13. with chap. 6. 62. and 20. 17. had these men known and believed, that very Jesus of Nazareth of the Seed of David, A­braham, &c. after the Flesh, to be indeed the Lord from Heaven, God blessed for ever, and yet also true and very man, both in one person, and so Emmanuel, God with us or in our nature for us, they would not have made this querie.

2. But for further answer, we add, That the Scriptures alleadged by them give no ground for their Querie, whither that body did descend from Heaven, because they spake not in such phrase or manner of speech as might be limitted to one of the natures onely, for he saith not simply it or the same thing that descended (as they would insinuate) but he or that person that descended, he is the same that ascended up, and the person that descended is, God man, the word made flesh in an insepa­ble union, for God sent forth his Son made of a woman, and he humbled himself to death in the flesh, Ephes. 4, 9, 10. Further also,

3. He saith, That he that ascended is the same that descended into the lower parts of the earth, he saith, not simply, or onely that he is the same that descended or came down from Heaven, but further, that he is the same that descended into the lower parts of the earth.

Now though in that first act of his descention and abasement in which he was made flesh of a woman, he might (as we hinted before) be said to descend into, and be curiously wrought or framed in the lower parts of the earth, yet did he also descend into the lower parts of the earth, in other and further sences, and in further and following acts of his abasement, in all which he was abased and humbled in that body of his flesh which he had taken or was made in the womb of the Virgin; Now his descention into the lower parts of the earth was first, even to the utmost step or point of it before his ascention there spoken of, and after the Declaration of that tis said, He that descended (namely into the lower parts of the earth, even in the ut­most sence in which he did so) he is the same that ascended up far above all Hea­vens.

Now he that was made sin and made a curse for us, that humbled himself and became obedient to the death of the Cross, that dyed and was buried, all which (as we shall further shew anon) is evidently included in his descending into the lower [Page 90] parts of the earth, he is Gods Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, not onely as the eternal word simply considered, but as made flesh of a woman, and so made of the Seed of David after the flesh, and made under the law for us; And that he that so descended into the lower parts of the earth, and after the same consideration of him, even Je­sus of the Seed of David according to the flesh, that that very he was raised in that very Body in which he Suffered, having the same substance, flesh and bones, hands and feet (though not in the same quality) and therein mightily declared to be the Son of God in that raised Body Spiritual and immortal and carried up into Hea­ven; yea that this man continues for ever, we have already particularly proved and shewed by the Scriptures, and shall further do it as we have occasion in answer to these Queries; nor are they able to resist the wisdom and Spirit in the holy Scrip­tures, by which this great thing of Gods Doctrine concerning Christ is evidently set forth, and therefore seek privily to undermine and deny it by this snaring querie (with the Argument annexed as before expressed) whither did that body descend from Heaven? &c.

To which likewise we give this further answer; 4. He, even the Son of man, yea that body of his flesh in which he was made and became the Son of man might be, and is truly said to have come down from Heaven, thus, or in these considera­tions.

1. In that the grace, appointment and gift in which he was given and sent forth to be so made flesh and humbled in that body was from Heaven, the Father gave and sent forth his Son made of a woman, made under the Law, and so to be the propiti­ation for our sins, and he came forth from the Father, and came into the World, Joh. 3. 14. 16, 17. Gal. 4. 4. 1 John 4. 9, 10 John 16. 28.

2. In that the power by which he was made flesh in that one body prepared him was from Heaven; for the Birth of Jesus was on this wise, The Holy Ghost did come upon a woman, a Virgin that had not known man, and the Power of the Highest did over­shadow her, and she was found with child of the Holy Ghost, and so that which was con­ceived in her was of the Holy Ghost; Therefore also that holy Thing that was born of her was called The Son of the Highest, Mat. 1. 18. 21. Luke 1. 31. 35.

And so even the Son of man, yea that body of his flesh prepared for him on the earth, in which he was made and became the Son of man, descended and came forth from Heaven and came into the world; forasmuch as he so came forth and was made flesh by the grace, gift and appointment of the Father, and by the operation of the Holy Ghost, and in that body of his flesh he descended into the lower parts of the earth, and he that descended is the same also that ascended up, &c. as be­fore.

W. and F. 4. Qu. What and where are the lower parts of the earth whereinto Christ descended from his Father?

Answ. We find in the Scriptures of Truth, 1. That sometimes the Mothers womb is called the lowest parts of the earth, as being a place of secresie, darkness and obscurity, Psal. 139. 12, 13, 14, 15, 16. and so he descended into the lower parts of the Earth, when the Word was made flesh in that one body prepared for him in the Womb of a Virgin, in which also he was made lower than the Angels, even partaker with us of flesh and blood of our nature in its mortal state for a time (as hath been shewed) that by the Grace of God he might taste death for every Man.

[Page 91]2. As men in all the ends of the earth are sometimes called all the ends of the earth. Isa. 45. 22. and 49. 6. so men of the lowest rank, poor despised and of mean esteem (as Rom. 12. 16.) may be as properly called the lower parts of the earth, and may be in­cluded with those that sleep in the dust of the earth; as those that also in a metaphori­cal sence dwell in dust, Isa. 44. 23. with chap. 26. 19. and in that sence also he descended into the lower parts of the earth, for though he was in the form of God, and thought it no robbery to be equal with God, yet having his body prepared for him of the Father, subject to all our infirmities that came by sin (yet without sin) and living amongst men, he made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a Servant, he became as a worm and no Man, a reproach of men and despis­ed of the people, Psal. 22. 6, 7. Isa. 53. 2, 3. Phil. 2. 5, 6, 7.

3. The words likewise are used to expresse a place and state of darknesse, Banish­ment or Separation from God (the portion of the wicked transgressors, such as a­mong whom he was numbred in his humiliation for us) Psal. 63. 9. as also those e­quivalent expressions, Psal. 86. 13. and 88. 5, 6.

4. Likewise the grave or place where the dead body or bodies are buried, ap­pears to be clearly meant and expressed in those tearms, as in that figurative speech, Isa. 44. 23. as compared with chap. 26. 19.

And in these two last sences, especially that of Eph. 4. 9. speaks of his having de­scended into the lower parts of the earth, as may further appear by comparing it with that prediction of our Saviour, Mat. 12. 40. as the fulfilling of it is opened by Peter, Acts 2. 24. 27. 31. He was made sin and made a curse for us, yea he dyed and was buried, wonderful was his abasement and humiliation for us, and the more won­derful, considering the excellency of the person who so willingly humbled and aba­sed himself, and what we were for whom he did it, the greater the sin of the ene­mies of his Cross that seek to render it as a common or prophane thing, as if of no more worth or preciousnesse then the blood or Sufferings of, or sustained in and by other persons may be, and so wretchedly strive to abase him that abased himself for them, But God hath mightily declared him to be the Son of God, by raising him from the dead in the same body the third day, for his Soul that was made an offer­ing for sin, was not left in bell, neither did his flesh see corruption, and in that bo­dy he is ascended, and the Father hath exalted and received him, even him whom they crucified, slew and hung on a Tree, the same that these men also crucifie to themselves and put to an open shame, seeking to cast him down from his excel­lency.

Q. 5 W. and F. And if he which descended into the lower parts of the earth, be a person of flesh and bones which ascended far above all Heavens; What is that place he is in far a­bove all Heavens which is not Heaven?

Answ. It is not so hard to find confusion and non-sence in this Supposition and Querie grounded upon it, as it is to find so much plainnesse and honesty, as by which it may be understood what they mean or require answer to. But the intention of this Querie (by comparing it with the rest of their confusions of this nature) appears to be,

First, To suppose or implie this as the question, Whether he that ascended up far above all Heavens be a person of flesh and bones, the same that descended into the lower parts of the earth; and then by that which follows as the main querie in this questi­on, [Page 92] to enforce a Negative answer, by rendering the acknowledgement of that Per­son, as being in that his own body in Heaven it self absurd and foolish, because they think in their foolish imagination, that to acknowledge him to be so in Heaven, and yet also far above all Heavens, cannot stand together.

Their inward thought (its like) is by these perverse disputings, to draw us into some snare or confusion, that they may glory over us and get advantage to insinu­ate to such as will listen to them, that the plain declarations of these things con­cerning the Man Christ Jesus in the Scriptures are but cunningly Devised fables, that must have some other Moral or Mysterie according to the Sensual or fleshly mind, in which they are vainly puft up, not holding the head; however we shall put it to the issue, giving our answers plainly and without hidden things of dishonesty, as those that have received a word of truth, a faithful saying worthy to be stuck too, and of which we are not ashamed.

And so first to their supposition laid down as the ground of their following que­rie. If he which descended, &c. be a person of flesh and bones.

To this we say, first we know no person made up or wholly consisting of flesh and bones, much lesse is his who is God man, the onely begotten Son of God, even as now made flesh and so as the Son of Man, John 1. 14. now glorified with the Fathers own Self, as the Fruits of his Sufferings, for in himCol. 2. 9. dwelleth all the fulnesse of the God head bodily, Joh. 17. 4, 5. Therefore we reject their absurb expression as foolish and impious, proceeding from their scorn of him and enmity to him, though they in reproach and derision of us for his Sake would intimate it as ours, as a little before that other expression (not altogether so grosse as this) a body of flesh and bones, to which having spoken already, we add no more to this, But further assert in answer to their querie implyed in the Suppositi­on.

That the Son of Man, even Christ of the Seed of David, Abraham, yea of Noah and Adam after the flesh, in that body of his flesh (prepared for him when he came into the World) in which he was sent forth, made of a Woman, made under the Law, he being found in fashion as a man in the likenesse of sinsul flesh (though without sin) and in the form of a Servant, did also descend into the lower parts of the earth, even in the two last sences of the lower parts of the earth before mention­ed; For as Jonas was three dayes and three nights in the belly of the Whale, so was the Son of Man (in his finishing the works the Father gave him to do on the earth) three dayes and three nights in the heart of the earth, Mat. 12. 40.

In that Body of his flesh he bore the Judgement of this World, even that due to us for sin, in which he was made for a time the banished or forsaken one, and his Soul therein made an offering for our sin, John 12. 27. 31. with Isa. 53. 10▪ Luke 22. 42. 44. Psal. 22. 1. &c. with Mat. 37. 46. Mark 15. 34. in that his own Body, him­self bare our sins on the tree, 1 Pet. 2. 24. and 3. 18. and once Suffered for Sins, the just for the unjust, being put to death in the flesh, he dyed for our Sins according to the Scriptures, and was buried, 1 Cor. 15. 3, 4. yea farther we assert with the Scrip­tures, that Christ of the Seed of David after the flesh, he even the same that dyed and was buried, rose again the third day according to the Scriptures; for if the dead rise not, then is not Christ risen, for though it was in or after the flesh that he dy­ed and was buried, yet by reason of the inseparable union of the two natures in one [Page 93] person, the word being made flesh, It was Christ that died and was buried, and therefore also it was not possible that he should be holden of Death, 1 Cor. 15. 3, 4. 12. 16. Acts 2. 22. 24. His soul was not left in hell, neither did his flesh see corruption as Davids did, but God raised him the third day (even him whom they flew and hung on a tree, and took down from the tree, and laid in a Sepulcher, God raised him from the dead) and shewed him openly, not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before of God, even to those last Apostles who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead, Acts 10. 39. 40, 41. and 13. 29. 30 31▪ 37.

To whom he shewed himself alive after his passion (even himself that suffered to death in the flesh, alive after his suffering) by many infalible proofs, (being seen of them fourty dayes, &c.) In all which he demonstrated himself to them, to be the same person, and in the same Body, yea to have the same flesh and bones, hands and feet in which he dwelt among them, and walked up and down with them, in the dayes of his flesh (or weaknesse) and in which he was crucified through weaknesse; And that now in the same Body he did live again, by the Power of God, and in the Glory of his Father, and did or presently should as­cend up, and go away from them to the Father, to appear in the presence of God▪ in Heaven it self for them, to prepare a place for them, &c. And that from thence he might even in the same body, in the Name and Glory of his Father, descend, or come down again, and receive them to himself, with all else, who through his Grace (bringing Salvation to all men in due time) do love and waite for that his Glorious appearing, that they may be with him for ever; See the Scriptures before mentioned to this purpose, how after his Resurrection he did evidently demonstrate himself to them, Luke 24. 36. to the end. And to Thomas particularly, who not being with the rest when they had seen the Lord, had said to them, except I shall see in his hands, and put my finger into the print of the nayles, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe; See what follows, John 20. 24, to the end. For even those things are written, that we in after ages that have not so seen him might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing we might have life through his Name; See also how further he asserts concerning his Ascension and going away from them to the Father, John 20. 17. with Chapter 14. 3. 28. and 16. 5▪ 9. 28.

And that the same Jesus of Nazareth, even Christ of the fruit of Davids loyns after the flesh, (for the name Jesus was not given him, or not so as that he was cal­led by it, till he had taken and was made flesh, and it alwayes signifies that person as so made, and includes the body of his flesh.) That he in the same Body did Ascend and was parted from them, after he had so shewed himself unto them, and was carried, and received up into Heaven, even as he had said unto them; See the Scriptures, Mark 16. 19▪ Luke 24. 50. 51. Acts 1. 2, 3. 9, 10, 11. and 2. 22. 36.

As likewise that the Heaven must receive him, till the times of restitution of all things; And then, and to that, God shall send him from thence, in the Glory he now possesseth for us there, Acts 3 13. 21. Mat. 16. 27. In the mean time he ap­pears in the presence of God for us, even in Heaven it self, there possessing Bodily, even in the man, the Glory he had with the Father, as his onely begotten Son, before the World was, Heb. 9. 24. John 17. 45. Col. 2. 9, Acts 5. 30, 31. Heb. 7. 23. 26. with Chap. 8. 1. 3. 4.

[Page 94]So that this Jesus is the very Christ, Acts 9. 22. and 18. 28. with Chap. 17. 3.

And the man Christ Jesus is the one Mediator between God and men, even he the same, who gave himself a ransom for all, and is not any more to be offered in Sa­crifice, or to give himself a Ransome for us; But to be testified to us in due time.

We come in the next place to their query under this 5th. head, viz.

Quest. What is that place he is in, far above all Heavens which is not Heaven?

Answ. This question is foolish, and unlearned, for asmuch as it takes for granted either as our minde, or saying, or as the expression of the Scripture, that there is some place far above all Heavens which is not Heaven.

Whereas neither is this any saying of ours, nor any where in the Scripture, but their filly inference; Nor is there any ground for their question in the words of the Scripture, which they seem to allude to. For that, Ephes. 4. 10. speaks not expresly of a place far above all Heavens, but of a person; He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all Heavens, &c. And sure its understandable enough, that a person exalted to great Glory and dignity may be far above the place of his Habitation, where he possesseth it; Yea is it not said of God that made the Heavens and the Earth, that Heaven is his Throne upon which he sitteth, Mat 23. 22. the place of his Habitation, Psal. 33. 14. And yet sure the Creator is infinit­ly above and greater than the Creature, yea he hath set his Glory above the Heavens, Psal. 8. 1.

This Question therefore as stated by them, we may justly reject as a foolish and perverse disputing of men of corrupt mindes destitute of the Truth.

Yet we shall here also, as alwayes by the Grace of God with simplicity and Godly sincerity clearly assert, and shew by the Scriptures the Truth of God against their privy endeavours to cast down the man Christ Jesus from his Excellency. And so we say,

The place or places where he now possesseth his Glory in that body of his flesh for us, is the Heaven it selfe, Heb. 9. 24. (The place of the Habitation, or Throne of God, Psal. 33. 13. 14▪ Isa. 66. 1. Mat. 23. 22. For he is with him appearing in the presence of his Glory for us in Heaven it self, when we cannot in such wise ap­pear for our selves, nor in our own persons, while at whom in the body in its mor­tal state) he is set on the Right hand of the Throne of Majesty in the Heavens, Heb. 8. 1. into which he is passed, and gone up, Heb. 4. 14. 1 Pet. 3. 22.

And yet therein, he may be truly and properly said to be ascended, or gone up far above all Heavens, not only in respect of Glory and Dignity, but even in re­spect of place, or local height also; When it self the Heaven, or Heaven of heavens, the place, or places on high, whether he is gone up, is distinctly mentioned in the same Scripture and speech, as it is in that Eph. 4. 8. 10. He as­cended on high, saith ver. 8. far above all Heavens, saith ver. 10. Now as the A­postle teacheth us to argue, 1 Cor. 15. 27. But when he saith, all things are put under him, its manifest that he is excepted that did put all things under him; So we may say here when he saith, he is ascended on high far above all Heavens, it appears that the place, or places on high where he possesseth this Glory for us, is excepted from those all Heavens far above which he is locally ascended, or gone up; And so we read of the Heaven of heavens, 1 Kings 8. 27. Neh. 9. 6. Sometimes also called the [Page 95] Heavens of heavens, Psal. 148. 4. And also that Christ of the fruits of Davids loyns after the flesh is ascended on high far above all Heavens, even into Heaven it self, the Heaven or Heavens, of heavens where he is received till the times of restitution, now to appear in the presence of God for us, Acts. 2. 30. 32. 34. and 3. 21 Heb 9 24

Again if we take in a figurative sence of the word Heavens as included in that, Ephes. 4. 10. that is to say, if we understand them to signifie not only the Heavens or heavenly places, but those that dwell in them, in any sence one or o­ther, as well we may yet in saying he is ascended far above all Heavens in such a sence, namely exalted in state and dignity far above all Principality and Power, and Might, and Dominion, and every name that is named, &c. as, Ephes. 1. 21. We or the Scripture do not therein say, either that he is exalted above the Father that exalt­ed him thither, or that because he is exalted far above all principality and power, and every name, &c. Therefore he is set in no principality or power, or hath no name; But that God hath given him a name above every name, as Phil. 2. 8, 9, &c. Namely above every other name, and so that he is gone into Heaven, and is on the Right hand of God, Angels, Authorities and Powers, yea all things being made subject to him by the Father, but still its evident he is excepted that made all things subject, 1 Pet. 3. 22. with 1 Cor. 15. 27.

We may see the darknesse and confusion of the Light in them, by its dictating to them, and leading them into such corrupt and foolish inferences, as that because he is ascended on High far above all Heavens, therefore the place he is in must be no Heaven. The same (as to the nature or manner of infering) with such as these that follow; That because God preferred Israel above all Nations on the Earth which he had made, Deut. 14. 2. and 26, 19. Therefore they were no Nation on the Earth, or of his making; And so because the Lord is above, and greater then all gods, Exod. 18. 11. Psal. 97. 9. and 135. 5. Therefore he is not God; who sees not the weaknesse and corruption of such reasoning? If any say, that Israel in other places is called a People, and a Nation, And the Lord in other places is called God.

We answer, Its as evident that the place or places on high where the raised body of Christ entered and is received, and remaineth until the Restitution of all things, is in other places frequently called heaven, the Heavens, the Heaven it self, as in the Scriptures forementioned and others.

But it may seem their understandings told them a body must have a place, and therefore that they might privily deny the being of his personal and now Glo­rious Body, and so that this man continues for ever, they devised this inference to see if they could drive us into a confusion about the place where he is, as also the two following questions.

Quest. 6. Whether do you believe that all the Heavens are local places one above another, and above the Firmament which is called Heaven? Yea or nay.

Answ. This querie hath three parts; To the first, whether all the Heavens are local places? We answer, if places, then locall, seeing local signifies places.

To the 2d. part, whether one above another? We answer, all the Heavens cannot be one above another, for those that be the lower cannot be above the higher, but there are lower and higher, there are heavens, and the Heaven of heavens, as we shewed [Page 96] before. Yea Stephen (being full of the Holy Ghost) saw the Heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the Right hand of God in Heaven, Acts 7. 55, 56.

To the last part, whether above the Firmament called Heaven? If they mean whether they be all above it, we Answer, Nay; seeing that is one Heaven, and it is not above it self; But if they would querie, whether any be above it? We Answer, yea. And might shew it in that, Psal. 8. 1. 3. Deut. 33. 26. with other Scriptures.

But all this question upon question is nothing to the purpose as to the thing aim­ed at by them, nor would it if it had been more properly propounded, or stated; as to say,

If this be the question, whether the word heaven or heavens be alwayes used in a proper sence, to express to us some place or places of Glory above the Earth, and one above and exceeding another? and if to this we answer, as well we might, Nay; the words are sometimes used figuratively, to expresse to us the dwellers in heaven of divers sorts and degrees, as likewise we finde other proper names of places frequent­ly used figuratively, as the house for the houshold, &c. And sometimes Meta­phorically.

What then? Doth it follow hence that such words are never used in Scripture in their direct and proper sence, or that they are not so used, and so to be understood in those Scriptures that treat of the matter under consideration?

Is this a good Argument? That if it be not evident that the word heaven, or heavens, doth alwayes signifie some place, or places of Glory distinct from, and above the Earth; That then it must not be so understood when Christs being ascend­ed up, and gone into heaven is spoken of▪ And that this is the thing they drive at in this and the last question is evident; But what their arguing availes to it, let the Reader judge.

Their question (but that they have a designe in hand they are ashamed of, or afraid to discover) should have been plain and direct to the businesse, viz.

What is meant by heaven, or heavens, when Christs ascending up thither, or be­ing gone, or taken up into them, and received, and set down there on the Right hand of power is spoken of, as Heb. 8. 1. and 4. 14. and 9. 24. Mark 16. 19. Luke 24. 51. Acts 3. 21. with other like Scriptures.

And to this our answer is, that then by heaven, or heavens, is meant a place or places on high, distinct from other places, yea distinct from and above the Earth, and these heavens within our sight, or that we are capable of considering sensibly in our mind.

Yea though as we have said, where it is said he is ascended on high far above all heavens, there a figurative sence of heavens is included, yet in such places where his being gone up into heaven, and there received, and set on the Right hand of Majestie even in the heavens is spoken of, there such a figurative sence cannot be included, as in the other saying forementioned; for he is not in such a sence received into or being in the dwellers in heaven as he is said to be received into, and to be in heaven it self. 1. Not in believers here on Earth, who having their conver­sation in heaven, may yet be said Spiritually to dwell in heaven; But Christ is not in or among them bodily, in his Glorious body, but Spiritually, and by Faith, nor doth he so appear in them, with or among them as in beaven, for there he appears in the presence of God personally, in that his own body, the body of his flesh, in [Page 97] which he bore our sins on the tree, not so in, with or among them now, but by his Spirit which he calls another Comforter, as distinguished from his own person, John 14. 16. 18. 26. They see him not as the Apostles and first witnesses, Acts 1. 3. 1 Cor. 15. 5. 8. John 20. 29. 1 Pet. 1. 8. But in the evidence and demonstration of the Spirit through their Doctrine.

They have him not with them, as, or in such a sence as they have the poor with them, viz. in bodily presence; Yea, they are absent from him, while at home in the body, even in a like sence (as aforesaid) as at home in the body.

2. Nor is he gone up into, or received in Angels, and so set on the Right hand of Power in them, but passed and gone into Heaven far above all Principallity and Power, Angels and Authorities being made subject to him.

Nor can Heaven in such places as forementioned mean any State of Glory, or Dignity, as distinct from the place where he possesseth it; for it is said he shall descend or come down from heaven, (where he is now received till the restitution of all things) 1 Thes. 4. 16. Phil. 3. 21. Acts 3. 20. 21. But in respect of state of Glory, he shall not descend, he shall never more lay aside any of that Glory or Dignity he now possesseth for us, or be abased or humbled for us, as before; But shall still sit on the Right hand of Power (which expresseth the state of Glory and dignity he now possesseth for us, which he shall still possess) even when he comes down from hea­ven, and appears personally on the Earth the second time, Mat. 26. 64. Yea the words in the Heavens do plainly express the place where he now possesseth his Glory in the man, as distinguished from the Glory he there possesseth with the Father, which is expressed in other expressions distinct, as his being set on the Right hand of God, on the right hand of Power, on the right hand of the Throne of the Majesty in which he is now exalted and glorified in the man, and that in the heavens, or heaven it self, as Heb. 8. 1. 1 Pet. 3. 22.

And so in all such Scriptures as before, by heaven, and so by the heaven or hea­vens whether he is gone up, and where he is received and possessed of that Infinite Glory in the body of his flesh for us is evidently meant, according to the most di­rect and proper sence of the word, the place, or places on high, where he is so received, and appeares in the presence of God for us; And to this we gave these demonstrations in our discourse in their hearing, to which they have answered nothing.

1. It is called Heaven it self, Heb. 9. 24. To distinguish it from heaven after any figurative, Typical or other sence of the word.

2. He is said to be ascended up thither, passed and gone into Heaven, yea re­ceived and taken up, Eph. 4. 10. Heb. 4. 14. 1 Pet. 3. 22. Mark 16. 19. Acts 1. 2. 9, all which expressions plainly import, a place or places above, whither he is so taken up. Yea,

3. It is likewise said, that in being so taken or carried up, he was parted from them, Luke 24 51. And after that was no more so with them in the World, John 17. 11. 12, 13. Mat. 26. 11.

4. The Heaven into which he was taken up from his Disciples, was the same, or Heaven in the same sence as of which it is said, the Apostles and disciples stood stedfastly looking towards it, as he went up, Acts 1. 9, 10, 11.

5. The same from whence he shall descend, or come again in like manner, as [Page] those chosen witnesses saw him go, when he comes to restore all things in their in­dividuals, Acts 1. 11. and 3. 20, 21. Phil. 3. 20, 21. 1 Thes. 4. 16. And that can­not be his Church, for he shall not then go from them, but come to them, nor his Glory he now possesseth (as before said) for he shall not come from that, but in it, even in the Glory of his Father, and with his Holy Angels; But is evident to be onely the place or places on high, where he now possesseth that Glory for us, from whence he shall descend, or come down againe, still sitting on the Right hand of Power.

6. Its that Heaven, or heaven in such a sence as it is properly opposed to the Earth, where and on which the former Priests served, yea it is expresly said, If he were on Earth, he were not a Priest, such a one as becomes us to have, Heb. 8. 1. 3, 4. and 4. 14. with Chapter 7. 26. In which its plain, that he is not on Earth in his person­all and bodily presence, as he is in Heaven as opposed to the Earth.

And the necessity of his going away thither, and being received and appearing there in the presence of God for us, and of what usefulness it is to us, and of what concernment, the holding fast the acknowledgment of it is, such as know the Grace of God in Truth do know something may be seen of it in Tho. Moor junior, his Antidote, pag. 41, 42. and 43. And in his instruction to the living, pages 39. 51.

And they that deny it, do deny Jesus to be the great high Priest, yea they deny his being already come in the flesh, so as that the works given him to do on the Earth in that his own body for the expiation of sin are finished, as John 17. 4, 5. with Heb. 1. 3. and 7. 26, 27. and 9. 24 26.

And so in sum deny Jesus to be the Christ, and therein shew themselves lyars, Deceivers, Antichrists, and are therefore and as such to be turned away from, and held accursed by us.

7. Que. Can a body of Flesh and Bones be both in the Heavens and far above them all, and fill all things at one and the same time? Yea or nay.

Answ. Nay, but the man Christ Jesus in that body of his flesh, in which he bore our sins on the tree, and hath flesh and bones now raised, and gloryfied with the Fa­thers own self, being ascended on high, and set down on the Right hand of Ma­jesty in the Heavens, and so being with the Father and in his Name, God over all blessed for ever; He may from thence and in that Name, Power and Glory fill all things, and fulfill all things too (as that Text also may be read) in his time, and according to his Word.

And the Text saith not, that his body fills or might fill all things, but he for whom God prepared that body, and who in that body is ascended up far above all Heavens, and is not now on the Earth in his Glorious personal Bodily presence, nor saith it that he doth fill all things, but he is ascended that he might fill or ful­fill all things.

The intention of this query with the former, is to deny the being of the persc­nall Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, or that this Man continues for ever, so as the former priests did not by reason of Death.

And the Argument here from which they would urge that denyall is, because it is said, he is ascended that he might fill all things, but a body of Flesh and Bones cannot be in divers places at once, and so not fill all things, therefore hence they [Page 99] would imply, That he hath no such body, the corruption and folly of both which, their implyed denyal and Argument intimated is already manifest, in what hath been said to their deriding expressions, a body of flesh and bones. And in the an­swers already given, and in what hath been said to this query where is shewed, that Christ of the fruit of Davids loyns after the flesh, who hath a Glorious perso­nall body (having flesh and bones) in heaven with the Father, he may be in divers sences, in divers places at one and the same time, and so may fill all things, though as to his personal bodily presence, he is not on Earth while the Heavens receive him, which is till the times of restitution of all things; So while yet we have not Jesus Christ in his personal Bodily presence with us, yet he is in his Grati­ous and Spirituall presence and vertues in the hearts, Societies and works of them that wait for him. And in his inspections, influencies and operations he is every where, and so in a sence filling all things now, though also in a more full and Glorious sence, he shall fill and fulfill all things (as before hinted) in his Season.

And surely such a question concerning him (whom they reproachfully call a Body of flesh and Bones) as this can He, &c. Doth very much manifest not only the Insidelity, but also the absurdity and gross sensuallity of the Interroga­tors; For is not the visible Sun in its body set or fixed in the Firmament of hea­ven, a place above the heavens where fowles fly, and Clouds ride; And yet so Glorious in Light, Brightness and extention of Light, that it fills with its light and influences the heavens and the earth and all in it, and yet this is but one of his creatures that hath its being, glory and standing off, and from him; for by him were all things made that were made, and in him was Life, even life from the dead, by way of Redemption, even from the beginning of mans need of it, by vertue of what he had then undertaken to do, and to become for fallen mankinde; And that Life in him was the light of men, the Fountain, Original cause, and producer of all that is truly Light and good unto them, for by him do all things consist even by him, as now in that body in the fulness of time prepared for him, he is the first begotten from the dead; For so is he glorified with the Fathers own Selfe, in that his own personal body in which he bore our sins on the Tree, that he even the Son of man, the man Christ Jesus is the Image of the invisible God, the brightnesse of his Glory, the expresse Image of his Person, upholding all things by the word of his Power, John 1. 1. 3. 14. Col. 1. 14, 15, 16. 19, 20. Heb. 1. 1. 3. &c.

And cannot this man who is King of Righteousness, and King of Peace, Heb. 7. 2. An hiding place from the wind, and a Covert from the Tempest as Rivers of Water in a dry place, as the shadow of a great Rock in a weary land, Isa. 32. 2 Immeasurably full of Grace and Truth, Spirit, Power and Authority, John 1. 14. and 3. 34. Mat. 28. 18. Glorified with the Fathers own self, so as in him dwells the fulnesse of the Godhead Bodily, John 17. 4, 5. Col. 2. 9. Cannot he (we say) in that Glorified body of his be in the Heaven of heavens, that is above all other hea­vens, and in the fulnesse of his Power, Excellency and Glory above all Hea­vens, and by his Glorious all-seeing Spirit, discern and see into allthings, even the secrets of every heart, and so into all the evil thoughts and windings in the Ima­ginations of these men, striving to mar his vizage; Is he a God at hand, and not afar off, can any hide himself in secret places that he should not see him, doth not he fill Heaven and Earth, Jer. 23. 23, 24. with Heb. 4. 12, 13, 14, 15. Doth he [Page] not by the Power and fulnesse he hath received in the man rule for ever? Oh let not the Rebellious exalt themselves! Psal. 66. 7. with John 5. 22. 27. 1 Pet. 3. 22. Doth he not by the fulness of gifts received in the man, and for men, even send forth Spirit to the Rebellious, and load us with his benefits, Psal. 68. 18, 19, 20. with Eph. 4 8, 9, 10. Is not the Earth upheld by him and the Inhabitants thereof, Psal. 75. 3. with Col. 1. 16. 17. and Heb. 1. 3. Is he not nigh to all, in giving them their being, Life, Breath, and Moving, and his good Spirit therein discovering his gooduesse, instructing and moving to Repentance, that they might seek the Lord, Acts 17. 27. 28. 30. 31. John 1. 9. 10. &c. and 8. 12. and 12. 46. &c. And is not he by his Spirit, with the Riches & influences of his Grace in unfeigned believers, and so in and unto them the hope of Glory, Col. 1. 26. 27. Surely he is, and doth all this in every age, and so is filling all things, and will in his time fill or fulfill all things (as aforesaid.) And had these men been of any judgement concerning the Faith, they would not have propounded this query with the former, or follow­ing; But against what Christ, what Gospel, and what Faith they fight, their queries discover to those who have their Spiritual sences exercised.

8. Que. Seeing Thomas Moor did not own that Christs Body is a carnal body in Hea­ven: how is it that you say his Body is a body of Flesh and Bones (or a Humane Body) with­out Blood in it; Is not a Fleshly body Carnal?

Answ. 1. That the Body of Christ in Heaven is not a Carnal body in Scripture sence, yea that it was not a carnal body when on Earth, we did and still do assert; for Carnal as used in Scripture when applyed to man, signifyes sinful flesh, or Na­tural sinfulnesse and emptinesse of good in mind or members, and so he was not made, though for a time in the likeness of sinful flesh, Rom. 7. 14. 23. with Chap. 8. 3. Phil. 2. 7. Heb. 4. 15.

2. As for their reproach, in saying that we say that its a body of Flesh and Bones without Blood in it; Its already answered, we say a body having Flesh and Bones, though not now weak and mortal as ours, whose natural bodily weaknesse and mortality is signified by those expressions Flesh and Blood, when put together, of which he also was partaker for a time, that he might die for us, That through Death he might destroy him that had the power of Death, &c.

3. To their parenchesis (or a humane body) we further say, Doth the Light in them tell them that carnal, and a body of Flesh and Bones, and a humane body is alwayes one and the same? Let us see if it be not darknesse.

Humane is alwayes used for the Nature or kind of man, as Gods Creature, as distinguished from other kinds of Creatures; And so a humane body is the body of a man, one that is verily a man, whether sinful and mortal, or not so, either the one or the other.

And so the Body of Adam in his Innocency was humane, the body of a man, he was verily man, yet sinless, and so not subject to or in a state of Death (though ca­pable of becoming Immortal, or mortal) but when by sinning he fell from God, then he became sinfult and mortal, And such are all that by natural propagation come from him, as of and from him while in this body not changed by Death, yet still humane, the nature or kinde remains though degenerated and corrupt; God made man upright, and tis man still that hath sought out inventions and is become carnal, sold under sin, Ecles. 7. 21. with Gen. 5. 1. 2. and Chap. 8. 21.

But the second Adam our Lord Jesus Christ is not a carnal, but Spiritual man, [Page] even from the first of his being made man, for though his Body prepared for and taken by him when the word was made flesh, was humane of mankinde, and so he was a very man, Yet he came not by propagation from Adam, but though made of a woman of the seed of Abraham, and so of Adam, of whom Abraham was, yet it was in a supernatural way, a work of new Creation by the operation of the holy Ghost in the womb of a Virgin that had not known man, and was holy, being anointed of God with the Holy Ghost, and power even in and from his con­ception and Birth; And so that holy thing, even before born of her, and when born, and alwayes without sin, yet not Immortal, but for a time partakers of Flesh and Blood, as the Natural Children of Adam, and because therein he was made subject to our infirmities that came on us naturally, or as a natural heritage from Adam, by reason of sin (yet without sin) he was said to be made in the likeness of sinful Flesh, and his body might be said in some sence to be made a natural bo­dy (as being partakers with us of Flesh and Blood, and so mortal) though not in every sence or in a full sence, as the naturall Children of Adam are. Yet to esteem him sinful Flesh, or his body a carnal Body, even then when he was on Earth partakers of Flesh and Blood, and suffered in the Flesh, we account blasphe­mie; much more to esteem his raised and Glorified body in Heaven a carnal body. For in his Resurrection form the dead, all that weakness and mortality of the Flesh that came on the Nature of man by the first Adams sin and fall, which he for a time was subject to, in being partakers with us of Flesh & Blood, it was put off from him, that he should no more return to it; And so his body is become in a full and Glorious sence Spiritual, Gloriously filled with the Spirit of Life and Power, yea Immortal, a Glorious body, he being therein glorified with the Fathers own self, and all by vertue of that his once suffering for our sins in the F [...]esh, in which he shed his blood, and therein powered out his Soul unto Death, laying down his Natural, Mortal, and Adam-like Life in the Flesh, that he might take it again in the Spirit and Glory of the Father, by which he was quickened, raised from the dead, now no more to return to corruption.

Yet still this raised and Glorious body is humane, the body of a man, even the man Christ Jesus having Flesh and bones, hands and feet, which by way of distincti­on from others, and eminency above them, is called his fl [...]sh and his bones.

And had these men believed either the great Mystery (as now revealed) that God was manifested in the flesh, in the words being made flesh, and dwelling a­mongst men, or the Resurrection of the body of Christ that dyed, they would neither have cavelled at the denying his body to be carnal, as if it could not stand with the acknowledgement of this man continuing for ever, nor have spoken so contemp­tuously of the Glorious body of Christ; And so neither would they have added this following query,

Is not a fleshly body Carnal?

To which we further Answer.

1. Fleshly and carnal, do not alwayes signify the same thing in Scripture; for we read of a heart of flesh, and fleshly Tables of the Heart, Ezek. 36. 26. 2 Cor. 3. 3. whereby fleshly cannot be meant carnal, but tender and fit to receive his impres­sion or writing, as opposed to a stony, hard or carnal heart. And though some­times such expressions, as to be flesh or fleshly named after it, may be used to signi­fy the weakness and brittleness of the outward man, or a helpless, withering, worth­lesse [Page] and decaying state (which may stand with carnality in Scripture sence, though distinct from it) because all flesh in its present state is as Grass, and the goodlinesse thereof as the flower of the Field fading and withering, but the word of the Lord that was made flesh, who is the spiritual and heavenly man, and he abides for ever; Yea though also sometimes a fleshly Mind and fleshly Lusts are equivalent with carnal mindedness and lusts, as Rom. 8. 5. to 8. Col. 2. 18. 1 Pet. 2. 11▪ Yet

2. To have flesh and to be fleshly or named after it, is two things, whether we take flesh as signifying the outward man, or body of man that hath flesh and bones, and that whether as natural from Adam, or as raised from the dead, for there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body, and both have flesh, though not of or in the same quality, or if we take flesh as Signifying the natural Sinfulness, or carnal mind, as the word is used for both, yet to have flesh in either sence, and to be fleshly or named after the flesh, are not the same, nor alwayes meeting in the same person. The Apostles did live and walk in the flesh or natural body, yet did not war after the flesh, nor was fleshly or carnal in their knowings, speakings or actings, 2 Cor. 10. 3, 4. with chap. 1, 12, 13 and 5. 16. Gal 2 20. with Phil. 1▪ 2 [...]. 24. and yet also they had flesh in the last sence, even natural sinfulnesse and carnality still dwelling in them, in their flesh, members or outward man, as from Adam, though they were not reckoned after it, nor did walk in or after it, but did mind and walk in and af­ter the spirit, and so were not carnal but Spiritual. And if to have flesh and to be fleshly be not the same, nor doth the latter at all necessarily follow upon the former in mortal men, How durst these men speak of them, as necessarily one in him who is raised from the dead in the Glory of the Father, and who saw no corruption, as if his having flesh and bones should render him a fleshly man or body; but that they are vainly puft up with their fleshly mind, not holding the head, &c. Yea

3. Neither is his body a fleshly body, nor any where by us or the Scripture so called, for though sometime (as we shewed) it was subject to the weakness and in­firmities of the flesh that are natural to us from fallen Adam, and so in some sence might be said to be a natural body, though he was therein made that which natural­ly he was not, and that in a supernatural way (as aforesaid) and was therein as al­wayes perfectly without sin, yet taking part with us of flesh and blood, that he might dye our death, &c. as before is hinted, yet now being raised from the dead, even that body of his flesh which God hath raised up from the dead is now in Heaven with the Father, a spiritual, heavenly and glorious body, so as yet the bodies of any of his members on earth are not; But their bodies also that now are vile, and see corruption as his never did, even the same that are now living on the earth or sleeping in the dust, shall be raised by him in the first Resurrection at his appearing, not carnal bodies or vile and corruptible as now they are, but fashioned into the likeness of his glorious body, when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal immortality.

Quest. 9. Can any local place contain that Glory which Christ had with the Father be­fore the world was, wherein he is glorified?

Ans. Nay, but the heavenly places or places on high where he is received till the times of restitution, may contain his Glorious Body, though they cannot contain the glory wherewith he is glorified and which he possesseth therein; for place cannot contain infinite power, wisdom, eternity, glorious Majesty, &c. The heaven & heaven [Page] of heavens cannot contain that glory of the Fathers own self, which is the glory that Christ had with him before the world was, and wherewith he is now glorified in the Body of his flesh (how much less can earthen Vessels or Clay Tabernacles con­tain that Glory that is set above the Heavens) we say the heavens cannot contain it, so that it should not Shine forth and operate in heaven and in earth, and in all pla­ces, yet the heaven is his Throne, the earth his footstool, yea the heaven of hea­vens is that place of his habitation from whence he beholdeth all things and doth whatsoever he pleaseth in heaven and in earth, and in all places, 1 Kings 8. 27▪ Isa. 66. 1. Eccles 5. 2. Psal. 33. 13, 14. And so the personal body of Christ in which he bore our sins on the Tree, being now raised from the dead, is received and taken up into heaven & set down on the right hand of the Majesty and Power of God in the heavens, and not now on the earth personally, yet the heavens cannot con­tain his Glory from Shining forth to us and operating in and with us, and in all things and places in the influences thereof, because the fulness of the God-head dwells in him bodily; and all power is given unto him in heaven and in earth, yea because he is in heaven with the father, therefore he is able to fill all things with the fruits of his mediation and influences of his power, for if he were now on earthor had not been received up into heaven & set down on the right hand of Majesty, upon his finishing the Works the Father gave him to do on earth, and offering up that spot­less body of his flesh to God, he could not have been such a Priest, and such a migh­ty King of Righteousness, Prince and Saviour for us and to us; And therefore those that deny his being in heaven in that body of his flesh, his now glorious body (in which he is the head) distinct from every body and spirit of his members, and as their fore-runner entred before them, as these Spirits in all their discourse and per­verse disputings against it (at least privily) do and have done, they do therein as much deny that Jesus is the Christ, and so are the great lyars, and Antichrists fore­told to come in the last dayes that deny the Father and the Son. And surely in frame­ing this query to that purpose, not onely their wicked enmity against the man Christ Jesus as in the former appears, but also in this their brutish folly (to which God justly leaves them) is so made manifest, that all of any understanding in naturall things or things within the reach of mans reason, may easily see it; For in such things its evident, not onely that the power, excellency and efficacy of some man or men on earth may reach much further then his personal body, or then the place in which that is, yea the farther and the more fruitfully, for his standing or abiding in some one place, where he may be more profitable and fruitful to others then if he were per­sonally with them, according to which our Saviour instructs his Disciples in the necessity and usefulness to them▪ ward of his leaving the World, and going away from them to the Father, to appear in his presence, and stand in his Name for our help, John 14. 2. 3. and 16. 7. 28▪ with Heb. 7. & 8. & 9. & 4. 14. &c. 1 John 2. 1, 2.

But farther also its evident to all that know anything (and therein may be also some resemblance of this business) that even the Visible Sun is placed in the firma­ment to run and keep its course there, yet those heavens cannot contain its glory that it should not Shine to us and have its effects on the earth, nor could it so generally Shine and have such Universal influences and effects, if its body were not set or pla­ced at such a distance from us.

Quest. 10. Where or how came Christ into the house where his Disciples were met after [Page 104] his Resurrection, the doors being shut? John 20. 19. 26. Have not some of you said, that then his body being spirituallized it glided in at the key hole of the door, for so it hath been spoken concerning some of your way.

An. This hath two or three questions in it, the two first are foolish and unlearned and to be avoided by us; as where he came in or how, it being not revealed other­wise or farther then thus; That the same Jesus that dyed and rose, did, when his Disciples were in a house together, come, the doors being shut, and stand in the midst of them, even in that body of his flesh that saw no corruption, having flesh and bones, hands and feet, the same body that was crucified, nailed to the Cross, and pierced with a Spear, as himself then did expresly demonstrate to Thomas, see vers. 27. This revealed we believe to be true, because spoken by the Truth of God that cannot lie; But where or how he came in further then revealed in his Testimony already given, we desire not to be wise in knowing or carnal in seeking sensually to im­magine, for secret things belong to the Lord our God, but things revealed unto us, &c. Deut. 29. 29.

To the last we say, None of us have said as is related, nor matters it what hath been said concerning some of our way, thats not the onely falshood that hath been forged concerning us by some of their way. They might have heard such ima­ginations and inquisitions reproved by us, as too sensual, in seeking to bring down the great things in the Revelation of the Mysterie of God manifested in the flesh to the sensual mind or comprehension, and favouring of pride and vanity of mind, in desiring to be wise above what is written, and so we still look upon them, and there­fore own no such thing. But believing the Scriptures and the great power of God, and that the Body of the Lord Jesus risen from the dead is Glorified with the Fathers own self; we know he could come in where & how he pleased, whether there was any such way for him or no, and needed no passage to be opened or made or for him; Yea fur­ther also we are assured, that even the Children of the first Resurrection, when they shall attain to that Resurrection of the dead, and have their bodies that now are vile, fashioned into the likeness of his Glorious Body; they in those very bodies b [...] ­ing Spiritual, Immortal, Powerful, Incorruptible shall be equal to the Angels, who cannot be hindred from passage by any corruptible things, as Doors, Walls or the like, but can make their own passage through any such obstacles, more easily then mortal bodies through the air; And why should it be thought a thing incredible that the Creator of all things should make mans nature partaker of such Glory? It is so onely to the sensual and carnally minded, who do therefore err not knowing or believing the Scripture and the great Power of God.

And that these are such appears by this manner of questioning; Do they not se­cretly imply in this question, that such a thing could not be done according to the proper and natural sence and import of the words, unless some mortal man can tell where or how? And do they not therein signifie that they count the plain sence and cleare import of the Evangelists words to be a lye? And that either Christ had not a Body having flesh and bones after his Resurrection as himself said, or if he had he could not come into the house and be in the midst of them, the doors being shut? and so by rendering the expressions of the Holy Ghost, such as can have no truth in them in their litteral sence and plain import, but are rather a cunningly devised fa­ble, they would insinuate a necessity of seeking the truth in some fancied moral or [Page 105] Allegorical interpretations of theirs. Besides, they intimate pride and high thoughts of themselves, for sure they would have us think they are so wise above what is written that they can answer their own Querie; what lesse can be thought in their thus propounding it to us? But till they have answered the Questions put to Job chap. 38. we will not believe them, for we know neither they nor any other mortal man can by searching find out the Almighty to per­fection, Job 11. 7, 8. nor yet find out the Work of God from the beginning to the end, Eccles. 3. 11. no not the Works of God done under the Sun, Ecles. 8. 17. He is no true believer on God, that will believe no more of his Works then he can tell how, where, and in what manner they were done, and he is foolish and proud that conceives himself able to demonstrate to reason every such thing in every Work of God.

Quest. 11. Whether the same Christ who in the dayes of his flesh suffered persecution, whose body was subject to hunger and affliction, be not made a quickening spirit, 1 Cor. 15. 49. and yet his flesh and blood is so nigh to every true believer, that his flesh is his meat indeed, and his blood is his drink indeed, &c?

Answ. This Question also may be divided into two parts.

1. Whether the same Christ who in the dayes of his flesh suffered, &c. be not made a quickening spirit.

2. The following part is in the form of a proposal, yet is signified to be part of their question, by the interrogatory point, it is thus, And yet his flesh and blood is so nigh to every true believer, that his flesh is his meat indeed, &c?

To the first part, VVhether the same Christ, &c. be not made a quickening Spirit, We answer, Yea he is, or rather (to use the expression of the Scripture) he was so made, for he is not now making or to be made so.

And further we say, We truly believe and propofess without hidden things of dishonesty, That it is the same Christ who in the dayes of his flesh suffered, &c. Now that was the word made flesh, and so Christ of the fruit of Davids Loyns after the flesh, who had both Spirit and Bo­dy, and if he were without either now he could not be the Christ, much lesse the same Christ, yea the Scripture quoted by them, 1 Cor. 15. 45. saith, That as it was the first man Adam that was made a living Soul, so it is the second Adam that was made a quickening Spirit. And therefore as the first Adams being made a living Soul, hindred not his having a natural body, yea it was the man that was made so; so neither doth the second Adams being made a quickening Spirit, hinder his having a Spiritual and Glorious Body that yet hath flesh and bones, yea its the man Christ Jesus the second Adam, Christ, of the fruit of Davids loyns after the flesh, that was made both Lord and Christ, and so a quickening Spirit; It is the same Jesus that suffered, & so in the same body in which he once (not onely suffered, but) suffered for our sins and bore them on the Tree, the just for the unjust, &c. (which also is more then they include in their acknow­ledgement of his Sufferings) it is this Jesus who was both dead and buried, whom God hath raised up and made both Lord and Christ.

They would seem to grant that the same Christ who in the dayes of his flesh suffered, &c. is made a quickening spirit, yet privily deny it, while they con­fesse not Jesus to be the same and very Christ that was so made, which they do [Page 106] not while they acknowledge him not to be so made in the same body of his flesh in which he once so suffered; For the Name Jesus alwayes signifies Christ as come in the flesh, and so takes in that body of his flesh, upon the taking where­of that Name was given him (as is before noted) yea he whom God hath rais­ed from the dead, and made both Lord and Christ, and so a quickening spirit, is said to be Christ of the Seed of David after the flesh▪ Rom. 1. 3 4 with Acts 2. 30. 36. the same that dyed and was buried, 1 Cor. 15 3. 4 45. The last A­dam (as also before is hinted) in not confessing which they privily deny what they pretend to grant, and their seeming grant is like John VVhiteheads con­cerning the Resurrection of Christ, who at our meeting with him at Gedney, pre­tended to believe that the same Christ that took flesh in a body prepared for him of the Seed of Abraham and David, and in that body served and suffered for at a time, that the same Christ was raised and glorified with the Fathers own self; And yet then would by no means acknowledge (though oft intreated and urged to speak plainly to the Question) that he was raised and did live a­gain, and continue for ever in the same body in which he so served and suffer­ed, or that the same body that then once in the last ages suffered and was hung on the Tree, was raised again from the dead, and is now alive for evermore; yea at last he deneyed that the same dead bodies of men that dye in Adam shall be raised and made alive again from the dead, that even the same that sleep in the dust of the earth shall come forth of their Graves by Christ, and so consequently that Christ is raised; for if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised, for Jesus Christ was dead and buried, as before we have shewed.

So then their immagination or meaning in this equivocal grant appears to be this, That the same Christ that had a body distinct from all other, in which in the dayes of his flesh he suffered, is now raised, ascended, and gone out of that body of his flesh into some (imaginary) spiritual being, which in that body of his flesh he could not be made, yet that in that his spiritual being, he is in the bodies or bodies and souls of divers persons, working, do­ing or suffering the same things in them which were typically or as a Pat­tern suffered and done in that body of his flesh, and so they neither confess him already come in the flesh, or as having finished that his coming in the flesh, or first appearing, to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself, and so the works the Father gave him to do on the earth, in that his once suffering for sin; nor do they confesse, yea they deny Jesus to be the ve­ry Christ who is made a quickening spirit, and therefore we have laid down our answer plainly and distinctly, that its not onely the same that had a body and therein once suffered, but also that its he in the same body of his flesh in which he once suffered for sins, even the same Jesus whom they crucified, slew and hung on a Tree, that God hath made the Lord and Christ, and so a quick­ening spirit, and have explained and confirmed our answer in the expressions of the Scripture quoted by them, that its the last Adam, &c. (of which they take no notice) for that fully shews the fulnesse and ungodlinesse of their im­magination, which therefore we again desire the Reader to mind, viz. that that Scripture, 1 Cor. 15. 45. speaks of two Adams, the first Adam the last Adam; so then they were both men, and had each the personal body of a man, when [Page 107] those things there spoken of were verified in them, yea so expresly called; vers. 47. the first man, the second man.

It was the first man Adam that was made a living Soul, and so it is the last Adam, the second man that was made a quickening spirit.

The Lord formed the body of the first Adam of the dust of the earth, and then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, Gen. 2. 7. and man became a living Soul; the breath of Life did not annihilate the body formed of the dust, but enlive and quicken it, by possessing it and defusing it self in and through all the parts and members of it, so that that breath of Life and the body of the man united, the man became a Living Soul; it is not said it, or the breath of life became so, but the man, upon Gods breathing in that breath of life, he, e­ven the first man Adam became a living Soul; And had he abode in that up­rightnesse and innocency in which he was made, he might have lived for ever; but as there was then none dead for him to quicken, so neither was he fitted for such a work, so that when he (this first man Adam) not keeping his first estate, but seeking out inventions, sinned and fell from God under the Sentence of and into a state of death and Separation from God, and so death passed up­on all men, and they are all partakers of flesh and blood, forasmuch as all have sinned in that offence of one, they must all have been shut out and pe­rished for ever in that losse and misery, if God had not found out and prepa­red a second man Adam and made him a quickening Spirit; for as by man came death, so by man also the abolishing of and resurrection from the dead, such was mans condition by reason of sin entered and overspreading the nature, and death already passed on him in the Sentence of God, that with­out another man, a second Adam in whom Gods Truth might be fulfilled and his Justice satisfied in the punishment of sin & death of the sinner, and through whose Sufferings by his overcoming death, the Righteousnesse of God might appear and shine forth therein, we could not have been quickened or made a­live; Therefore for the recovery of fallen man, that he might not be utterly expelled or shut out in the first death and banishment, but such Redemption wrought and obtained for him, that through the Redeemer he might be saved, and that they might be all in due time made alive or raised from the first death, to appear before the judgement Seat of their Redeemer, therefore God found out and prepared a second Adam, and made him a quickening spirit. Now this second Adam was even his onely begotten Son, the Word that was in the beginning with God, and so before the first Adam, and he by whom and for whom the first Adam and all things were made that were made, the proper Lord and Heir of all things, for he onely was able and meet to undertake such a work, and to have help laid upon him for us, but he was made flesh of a wo­man, and so made man, the second Adam in the fulnesse of time once in the end of the World, and that by a wonderful work of new Creation, by the Grace, Gift and Appointment of the Father, and by the Operation of the Holy Ghost (as is foreshewed) and so was the Lord from Heaven, Heavenly e­ven when he was made flesh in that body so prepared for him, yet very Man made of the Seed of David after the flesh, and therein partaker with us of flesh and blood, and so like to natural & fallen sinful men, from birth to death in all [Page] things except sin; This second man, the last Adam, because he so humbled himself in that body prepared for him, to that purpose God hath raised from the dead and exalted with his Right hand, and Glorified him with his own self, in that body in which he bore our sins with the Glory he had with him, as his onely begotten Son before the World was, and therein actually made him in a full and Glorious sence a quickning Spirit, to quicken and raise others, as is fore-shew'n; So that his being made a quickning Spirit, no more Annihilates his risen and Glorified body, having flesh and bones, from being truly a liv­ing, Spiritual, and personal body, then the Breath of Life did Annihilate the first Adams body; yea without that body he is not the man Jesus Christ, us he is affirmed to be that was so made, whereas if he were onely a Spirit, without the body of a man, the assertion must have been contrariwise thus; He that was the last Adam, is now the quickening Spirit, and not Adam; But the Text serves not these mens turn, for it saith,

The first man Adam was made a living Soul, the last Adam (who is also cal­led the second man, ver. 47.) was made a quickening Spirit.

Nor was, or is there any other man made a quickening Spirit but He, in that his own personal body onely, the second and last Adam, or publick man, who being made perfect through sufferings, offered up himself once for all, through the offering up of which body of Christ we are sanctified, Heb. 10. 5. 10.

For it pleased the Father that in all things he might have the preheminence that in him all fulnesse should dwell, even the fulnesse of the God-head bodily, Col. [...]. 1 [...]. 19. and 2. 9. Tis of his fulnesse that his members receive, and that of this measure which they here receive from him, they have it in earthen vessels, and though by what they receive from him, and are made in him, their spirit is made alive for Righteousnesse sake, yet the body is still dead because of sin, and so vile while in this Mortal state, that is, while not changed in the natural & bodily Death, that in the Resurrection it may be fashioned into the likenesse of his Glorious body, John 1. 14. 16. 18. 2 Cor. 4. 7. Rom. 8. 10. 2,. Col. 3. 3, 4. Phil. 3. 2.

The second part further shews their Ignorance, and being void of judge­ment in the things about which they query, as also their sensualnesse not hav­ing the Spirit.

1. Their Ignorance and being void of Judgement appeares in their say­ing, and yet, &c. Or notwithstanding that he is made a quickening Spirit, yet his flesh and blood is so nigh to every true believer, that his flesh is his meat indeed, &c. In this saying, and yet, they imply that his being made a quickening Spirit renders it more difficult to understand that his flesh should be meat indeed, and his blood drink indeed, whereas our Saviour when he had affirmed his flesh to be meat indeed, and his blood to be drink indeed, and some thought it a hard or difficult saying, John 6. 55. 60, &c That he might demonstrate, and make it more easie to their understandings, he saith, what and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where he was before; It is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing, the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are Life, in all which he signifies (as is [Page] more fully opened by the Apostles, after his having finished the works the Fa­ther gave him to do on the Earth) that even the flesh of Christ (as in its mortal state) and so all his abasement and sufferings for us in the flesh could not have profited us, and so not have been bread of life for us, if he in the same body of his flesh, the Son of Man had not risen from the dead, ascended, and offered up himself to his Father, in and by the Power of the Eternal Spirit, according to that, 1 Cor. 15. If Christ had not risen from the dead, even Je­sus Christ, of the seed of David after the flesh, that was dead and buried, we had been yet in our sins, and the Preaching of him, and Faith in him had been vain; But he being in due time, by means of his once suffering in the flesh for sins, quickened raised from the dead, and Glorified by the Power of the Eter­nall Spirit, and so made a quickening Spirit; He therefore in that body of his flesh which saw no corruption, and so his once suffering in the flesh for sin, by means of which he was so Glorified, is spiritual meat indeed, the Bread of Life, and was vertually so before, but is now fully made so for us, and also ma­nifested so to us by that Spirit that raised him from the dead, breathing in, and present with the Preaching of his Crosse, in which Preaching the pre­ciousnesse of his Crosse is commended, in this, that he that suffered is raised and Glorified in the same body, and now appearing in the presence of God for us, by vertue of which it is made in the Preaching of it Bread of Life in­deed, and so his words declaring him that once suffered in the flesh to be so raised, and glorified (as aforesaid) are Spirit, and life, as also Rom. 10. 9.

These men therefore are of no Judgement concerning the Faith, forasmuch as that which our Saviour gives as the Reason▪ why his flesh is meat indeed, and his Blood drink indeed, namely that God would give him Glory as the fruit of it; they imply at least as a thing rendering it more hard to be under­stood, yea secretly they imply it as a reason against the understanding Christs flesh, and Christs blood (that is meat indeed and drink indeed) according to the plain import of his words

And so in this implication they signifie, not onely (as we have noted of them upon the first part of this question) that in his being made a quickning Spirit, they fancy a nullifying of the real being of that Body of his flesh in which they grant he once suffered, but also that by his flesh and his blood which is meat and drink indeed, they mean not that flesh once given for the life of the World, nor that blood once shed for the Remission of sins, or his once suffering in the flesh, to the sheding of his blood, as also more plainly appears in their next question.

2. Their sensuality, not having the Spirit, appeares (at least if we consider their sence of its being nigh,) in their saying, that the flesh and blood of Christ is so nigh to every true beliver, that his flesh is his meat indeed, &c. In which they imply, that it cannot be meat to them, and so not fed upon by them, except nigh to them, and explain not themselves in what sence they mean nigh, which had been very needfull in such a case, when they lay so much stress upon its being nigh, especially seeing the expressions are not found in the Scripture, that the flesh and blood of Christ is nigh to every true believer, much less, that its being nigh is the cause of its being meat and drink unto them, [Page] the Scripture saith that the word of Faith which the Apostles preached, the Preaching of the Crosse, declaring Christ to be risen from the dead, was made nigh to them in and through the Preaching of it, even so in their mouth and and in their heart, that it might be believed and confessed by them, but he saith not that the flesh and blood of Christ was nigh to every true believer, yea doubtlesse, even that flesh and blood of Christ vertually, of which our Savi­our speaks, was meat and drink indeed Spiritually and by Faith to Abraham and other true believers in Moses and the Prophets times, and yet they receiv­ed not the promises in which they were actually brought forth and manifested, but saw them afar off and rejoyced in them; We say therefore, seeing the expressions are not found in the Scripture, there was the more need for them to have explained in what sence they mean, that it is so nigh them, which though they do not, yet the whole question compared with the former, (yea the following Question more clearly) shewes their meaning to be, that except the flesh and blood of Christ be nigh them, as to time and place, in a present sencible being, it cannot be meat & drink indeed to them; By which it appears, that that which they mean by the flesh and blood of Christ, which is meat and drink to the believer, it is something alwayes in a present & sencible being nigh to, with, and in them, in which they shew themselves sensual, not having the Spirit, living by sence and not by Faith, which is the evidence of things not seen, as also the ground or confidence of things hoped for.

We shall here therefore for the help of others, and that none may be be­guiled with inticing words, positively assert, and shew by the Scriptures,

1. What is meant by Christs Flesh, and Christs Blood, that is meat and drink indeed.

2. How or wherein that was actually so made, and from what reason it is evidenced to be such meat and drink indeed.

3. How and by what means it is brought to us, that it may be fed on by us.

1. By his flesh and his blood when mentioned together, and so by each and either of them, when expressed by it self, as the Bread or Drink of Life is meant Jesus Christ and him crucified, himself as come in the flesh, and having finished the the works the Father gave him to do on the Earth, in his whole abase­ment, and humiliation in which he once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God; Our Saviour comprehends both his flesh, that is meat indeed, and his blood, that is drink indeed, in those sayings, the Bread of God is he which cometh down from Heaven, and giveth life unto the World.

I am the living Bread that came down from Heaven, and the Bread which I will give, is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the World, John 6. 33. 48. 50, 51. Whence also both the eating and drinking in the Supper of the Lord is ap­pointed to be done in remembrance of him. Now remembrance implyes something actually done, finished and passed through in and by him (as he is the object of remembrance) which is therefore alwayes to be remembred, be­cause of its infinite and abiding vertue, and usefulnesse, (he being by means thereof made both Lord and Christ) and so that which is remembred, and [Page] shewed forth, is the Lords death, the whole abasement, humiliation, and suf­ferings sustained and finished by him in that body of his flesh, the Crosse of Christ, with the glorious ends, vertues, and preciousnesse thereof, 1 Cor. 11. 24, 25, 26. Therefore the whole Gospel of Christ is called the preaching of his Crosse, even of Christ crucified, 1 Cor. 1. 17. 18. 23. and 2. 2.

Yet in the distinct mention of his flesh and his blood, there is some distinct considerations of him, and him crucified, or of the Crosse of Christ (as he is so, and by means thereof the Bread of God) signified to us; And that both in his Humiliation and sufferings, and in the ends of them, and their powerful effi­cacy with the Father to those ends for us.

First, Distinct things considerable in his Humiliation and sufferings for us, and so by his flesh, as distinguished from his blood is meant, His whole abasement in being made flesh, and sufferings in the flesh, unto the shedding his blood, or laying down his Life, even all that sustained and en­dured by him in the dayes of his flesh, or weaknesse, for he was crucified through weaknesse of which he was made partaker, that therein he might be capable of suffering and dying our death, as well as that he might bear our infirmities and sorrowes. And so his taking mans Nature or kind, in be­ing made flesh of a woman, so as in that preparation of his Body, he took part of flesh and blood, like as the Children of men are partakers of it, as the fruit of sin, and so was made in the likenesse of sinful flesh, subject to all our infirmities that came on us by reason of sin, yet without sin in that body of his flesh, therefore his flesh so prepared, and given him of the Father, was meet to be given by him for the Life of the World, whereas in our flesh, as we are partakers of it in its mortal state, there dwells no good thing, therefore nothing that can be done or suffered by us in our flesh is in it self clean or meet to be offered in sacrifice to God; But his flesh as distinguished from, and in some sence opposed to our flesh, as we in our particular persons are partakers of it, and so his humbling himself to be made flesh in the likenesse of our sin­full flesh, and to come as a weak and dispicable man in the form of a Servant, and being therein made a man of sorrows, and acquainted with griefs, and giving his flesh to be broken, bruised, torn, wounded, and pierced for our transgressions, this is that which God hath accepted, and therefore crowned him with this Honour, when made flesh, and in that body of his flesh lower then the Angels, even partaker with us of flesh and blood, that his sufferings unto death and so his death in the flesh should be by the Grace of God for every man, therefore his flesh is meat indeed for us, even his flesh given for the Life of the World, his body given and broken for us, and so alwayes to be remembered, and fed upon by us, Luke 22. 19. 1 Cor. 11 24. John. 6. 5 [...].

Again, by his Blood, as distinguished from his flesh, is meant that blood of his Crosse, which was shed for us for the Remission of sins, Col▪ [...]. 14. 20. Mat. 26. 28. Not only nor so directly his being sometime partakers of material and mortal blood in that body of his flesh, that is included in the forementioned sence of his flesh, as distinguished from his blood, and when mentioned toge­ther with it (such blood being in and with his flesh, all the dayes of his mor­tallity, untill his death, in which it was so fully shed forth and powered out, that water followed) but by his blood as distinct from his flesh is directly, [Page] meant his humbling himself to that death in the finishing of his sufferings, wherein that blood, in which was his natural life in the flesh, as of man was shed, and so therein his Soul, or Life in the flesh powered out, yeilded up, and laid down for our sins, that were caused to meet together upon him, that so he might by means of that his death in the flesh, take his Life again in the Pow­er of God, and live for ever in the Glory of his Father, even in that raised bo­dy of his flesh.

And this is very usual in the Scripture, by blood, to signifie the shedding of blood to Death, or the natural and bodily death by any other means, so Abels death by Cain, called his blood, Gen. 4. 10. with Heb. 12. 24. So Naboths death by stoning called his blood, 2 Kings 9. 2 [...]. & generally the Martyrdom and death, of the Servants of God for his sake, 2 Kings 9. 7. Deut. 32. 43. Psal. 72. 14. with Psal. 116. 15. Yea the natural or bodily Death, however it come on a man, is called his blood, Psal. 30. 9. Heb. 12. 4. So also that by Christs own blood, the blood of his Crosse, by which peace was made, Redemption obtained, and so by which he entered into Heaven it self, and so by the Spiritu­all sprinkling of which in the Preaching of the Crosse he purgeth the consci­ence, is meant his Death, his shedding of his blood, his once suffiring even to the death of the Crosse, his being put to death in the flesh; see it in the foreceited Scriptures, Col. 1. 14 20. Mat. 26. 28. with Phil. 2. 8. 1 Pet. 2. 24 and 3. 18. so also in Heb 9. 2. 14. with ver. 15, 16. 22. 26.

Again, Secondly, By the distinct mention of his flesh and blood is signified some distinct considerations of the ends and powerfull efficacies of his own suffering in that body of his flesh for our sins. As,

1. For making peace and atonement with God for our sins, in which we have all sinned in the disobedience of one, and in which we are from thence become altogether filthy, and as such justly banished, and dead at Law, and so its said, he gave his flesh for the life of the World, and by suffering the judgement of this World, and being made a Curse for us, he hath abolished death, obtained a Redemption, and release of mankinde from under the power of that judgement that came on all in and by the first man Adam, and so from the curse of the Law, to be under his dispose and judgement, by whom the Kingdom of God is brought unto us, that through him we might be sa­ved; As the offence of one was unto all to condemnation, so the Righ­teousnesse of one, in laying down his Life that he might take it again, is un­to all to Justification of Life from under the power of the first death and banish­ment, that they may not perish therein, or be held out from God thereby: but that they might live to him that dyed for them, and rose again, Rom. 5. 18. 2 Cor. 5. 1 [...], 15. 19. Col. 1. 20. John 6. 51. and 12. 31, 32. Gal. 3. 13. 11.

His shedding of his blood, laying down his Life, or powering out his Soul unto death for our sins, was also to obtaine into himself for us a better life, yea better then that we lost in the first Adam, even Eternal Life; Yea all ful­nesse of all things pertaining to life and Godlinesse, even the fulnesse of the Godhead bodily, that of his fulnesse we might receive. And so the immeasu­rable fulnesse of that Holy and Eternal Spirit, to rest upon him in that body in which he so suffered, that he should Teach sinners in the way, and guide the [Page] meek in Judgement; Yea further, he hath by his blood, or by means of that his death which was for the Redemption of the Transgressions under the first Testa­ment, obtained plentious and Eternal Redemption, even the forgivenesse of such sins as are after the similitude of Adams transgression, he hath received pow­er in the name of the Father, and as the fruit of his sufferings, to take away such sins by his dayly appearing in the presence of God for us, and so all such gifts as may serve for the good of the Rebellious while it is to day, for forbear­ing and renewing mercies to them, that yet through him they might be saved, and that he might be just, and the Justifier of him that believeth in Jesus even from such sins, yea from all things from which they could not be justified by the Law of Moses; And so he is a Saviour from the wrath to come, be­ing now by means of his death, a Mediator and propitiation for such sins as deserve it, John 17. 4, 5. 1 John 5. 11. Heb. 9. 12. Col. 1. 14. 19. and 2. 9. Acts 2. 33. Psal. 68. 18, 19. with Ephes. 4. 8. 10. Heb. 9. 15. 1 Thes. 1. 10. 1 John 2. 2.

He was bruised, wounded, and put to death in the body of his flesh for our transgressions, that through death he might abolish death in his Resurrection, and make such peace and healing for us, that through him we might be deli­vered and saved, that were all our life time through fear of death subject to bondage; Yea therefore, also he shed his blood and powered out his Soul un­to death, that he might by vertue thereof obtaine and receive into himself a better even Eternal life for us, with all such gifts for men, yea for the Rebel­lious also, as was needful, that yet while it is to day they might be brought back to God, and that he might be able to save to the utmost them that come to God by him.

2. This his flesh and his blood was evidenced to be meat indeed, and drink indeed for men spiritually to feed upon, by the Resurrection of Christ from the dead, and his offering up his spotlesse body a Ransom or price of Redemption once for all, as being made perfect through sufferings, and his being accepted, and set down on the Right hand of God, and Glorified with the Fathers own self, Immeasurebly filled with all gifts in the man for men, (as before we have shewed) all as the fruit of his precious blood, sufferings and death; Yea therein was he, and so his past and finished, sufferings actually and fully made, and mightily declared to be such bread of Life; For if he had not rose and revived or lived again in the same body in which he bore our sins, to offer himself to God in Heaven it self, and there to appear in his presence for us, his flesh could have profited us nothing, but now its profitable to all things; If he had been still and often suffering for sins, or could die, or shed blood any more, then had there been no such vertue in that which he hath already done, if therein he had not finished the works of abasement, and blood-shedding the Father gave him to do on the Earth, and thereby obtained the Resurrection, and Glory of Eternal Redemption, and Life in himself for us, we had been yet in our sins, and the Preaching of his Crosse and Faith therein had been vain, which is not in blood now shedding, but shed, the suffer­ings, and Death finished and past, as to the acting, or actuall bearing or sustaining them, but God hath raised him from the dead, and given him Glory, [Page] because he so humbled himself, & c. That by him our Faith and hope might be in God, and so the vertue or preciousnesse of his blood, the love testified in it, the peace made, and Redemption obtained by it remaines ever with the Father for us, treasured up in him, even in that his now Glorious body in which he once suffer­ed for our sins, that in his name it may be Spiritually shed forth upon us, which pre­cious vertues and fruits of his blood may be also called his blood in a like sence, as the water fetcht out of the well of Bethlehem with the jeopardy of their lives that fetcht it is called the blood of those men, 2 Sam. 23. 15, 16, 17. And as that which is bought with a mans money may be called his money, yea his having ob­tained by shedding his blood the Spirit of life in the man more excellent in de­gree then the breath of Life first breathed into Adam, with all power, Authority, and fitnesse to send forth thereof to men, and having also confirmed the Precious promises of it in his blood; This his fulnesse and fitnesse to dispence is Wine mingled, and so that Spirit powered forth in and with the Preaching of his Crosse, opening and making known his words, is drink indeed, John 6. 27. to the end. with Prov. 9. Jer. 15. 16. Psal. 119. 103. And may be called his blood, as be­ing the precious fruit of it, but still that which Originally and properly beares that Name, and from whence such precious fruits of it may be also so called, is as be­fore, that blood, blood-shedding or Death of his Crosse, and that being the Root and foundation of all these precious fruits, is the drink indeed, the bottom, matter of all Spiritual quickenings and retreshings, because by means of it Christ is rais­ed and Glorified in the man for men, and made such a quickning Spirit, as hath been shewed before, therefore we shall add no more to it here.

3. This is brought to us, that it may be Spiritually fed on by us, not in the ma­terial or sencible being of that flesh and blood in us, or sencibly nigh to us, nor in a dayly coming in the flesh, and so suffering for sin, and offering himself often, ei­ther within us, or without & before us, that we might be eye witnesses of these things, as those that lived in the dayes of his flesh, or being manifested in the flesh were; For then must he often have suffered from the foundation of the World, but now once in the end of the World hath he appeared to put away sin by the Sacrifice of himself, he once suffered and died for sin, and can die no more, either in his own Person, or for sin, and for the putting away sin in any other person; But that which he hath al­ready done and compleated in himself by means thereof is brought to us by the evidence and demonstration of the Spirit in the Gospel, and other witnesses of his goodnesse and Name given us, in which he that was dead is witnessed by means thereof to be alive for ever▪more, and appearing in the presence of God for us; Therefore its said, that he gave himself a Ransom once for all, not that he should offer himself often, or any more, but to be testified in due time in what he hath al­ready done, and is become thereby, or that he should now be a Testimonie thereof to men, and of the Grace and Glory of the Father therein, 1 Tim. 2. 6. So that now for the making us partakers of the blessed benefit, and fruit of what he hath done and is become for us, he is not doing the same things over again once finished on the Earth; But first executing the office of an Apostle, Messenger, or Preacher of the peace that ho hath made thereby, therein shewing his sulnesse and fitness for us by means thereof, and commending the Grace of God through it, and then also executing the Office of a great high Priest, appearing in the presence of God for us, that we may not fail of his Grace through our manifold weaknesse & follies; But [Page] still, that his appearing there as a Priest and Advocate, and so as the propitiation for our sins, is by vertue of and with that one offering of his one body perfected through sufferings once for all, whence we are exhorted to consider the Apostle and high Priest of our profession Christ Jesus, who was faithfull to him that appointed him, even in the finishing those works, of which he is an Apostle to us, and by which he is an high Priest for us, and that laid down as the ground of our confidence of his goodness and faithfulness in what remains, Heb. 3.

And so (as we have before hinted) the Scripture saith not, as these men, that the flesh and blood of Christ is nigh them, but the word of Faith which declares it and its vertues and efficacies with the Father, in shewing himself in that body in which he so suffered by means thereof, to be risen from the dead, made both Lord and Christ, and appearing in the presence of God for us, that Preaching of the Cross is made nigh to men in the Proaching of it vouchsafed, they being in the evidence and demonstration of the Spirit, with power revealing the object, and opening the eyes, and strengthening the heart, that they might believe and confess that God hath raised Christ from the dead, and so that Christ might dwell in their hearts by Faith of him, in what he hath done, and is become for them, yea it is the Power of God to Salvation to them that believe, though foolishness to them that perish from it, Rom. 10. 6. 10. 1 Cor. 1. 18. &c.

12. Query. And if the blood of Christ that was shed be the drink indeed, and the purger of the conscience, where is that blood, if not in Christs flesh as you affirmed, seeing that men must drink the blood of Christ, as well as eat his Flesh, or else they have no life in them?

Answ. They have hitherto intimated their corrupt minde against the personall and now Glorious body of Christ, and against the heavens in which it is, as onely designing to cast him down from his Excellency; now they proceed to imply, and privily cast out their venom against the blood of Christ, as if that blood that was shed, is personal sufferings to the sheding of his blood, and death of the Cross, were not the drink indeed, and purger of the conscience, for so in their supposition, they imply that as a question, whether that blood of Christ that was shed be the drink indeed, &c. And then frame their following question of purpose to deny, or make it void from being so, for if it be so (say they) then where is it, &c? In which as in the former they imply, that men cannot eat his flesh, and drink his blood, except it be in a sencible being present with them, nigh to, or in them, and so consequently deny that blood of his Cross that was shed for the Remission of sins to be the drink indeed and the purger of the conscience, because it is not now shedding, and so as much deny his flesh that was broken, and the preparing and giving it to be bruised, wounded, and broken for our transgressions, to be meat indeed, because those works and sufferings therein are finished and past, and not doing, or to be done over again in that person, or any other, and so cannot be in a present or sencible being nigh to, in or with any man.

2. They still to cast reproach upon it, further imply, that if that blood that was shed be the drink indeed, and so consequently, if that body of his flesh be meat in­deed, then the eating or drinking must be in a natural or sensual manner, like as natural meat and drink is eaten and drunk; For this they fully signifie, the blood that was shed cannot be drunk except in its material being, it be in Christs flesh, or somewhere else nigh to men in a present material existence; For if that blood [Page] that was shed (say they) be the drink indeed, then where is it, if not in Christs flesh, as they say we affirmed, but they say falsly, for we oft declared, that as the Blood of Christ is the bottom, ground or foundation of our Faith, or that by means of which he is so, and so as it is the drink indeed, &c. Even so it is in Heaven with the Father, even in Christs personal Glorious Body; But that is not in a material and mortal existence or being of it in his flesh, and with it as here he was partakers of Flesh and Blood, but in the infinite vertue and preciousness of its being shed, and so his sufferings once suffered in the flesh, are for ever accepted and remembered with the Father, and his Body Glorified, and immeasurably fil'd with the Eternal Spirit, yea he therein made a quickening Spirit for and to us, and all by means of his death, the vertue and preciousnesse of which remains for ever, and so the Fruit of it and grace in and through it, which also as we hinted before, may be called his Blood, as being the Fruit of it, and things procured and purchased by it; But then also in this their reproach,

3. That which they add as a Reason why Christs Blood that was shed must be in his flesh, if it be the drink indeed, &c. Namely that men must drink it, shewes their folly, for the necessity of drinking his Blood can be no Argument, that his Blood is in his flesh as before it was shed, for as so it was in a materiall being in his flesh and mixed with it, it cannot be drunk in a sensuall or naturall way of drink­ing as they would signifie it must, if that be the drink indeed, it is rather to be drunk as shed and powered out for us; We read of eating flesh with the Blood in it, a thing forbidden in the Law, but of drinking Blood in the flesh, we read not, but in their nonsencical language. Yea,

4. In the whole of this question, they imply an immagination that there is some other Blood of Christ besides that which was shed, or his Blood shedding and death once suffered in the flesh, and that that other Blood is the drink indeed, and the purger of the conscience, and so consequently that there is some other flesh, or Bo­dy of his flesh besides that which was broken for us, which, and not the former, is the meat indeed; And so they in their immagination make void his once suffering in the flesh, in that one body so prepared for him, (as before) as of no abiding vertue or efficacy with the Father for the taking away our sins, and so for the Spi­ritual feeding of the believer now, to this they render the Crosse of Christ of no effect, that they may lift up something else in the name and place of it; For fur­ther answer therefore to this Question, and for the help of others, we here add to what former demonstrations we have given of the flesh of Christ that is meat in­deed, and of his Blood that is drink indeed.

1. That there is no other flesh of Christ that is meat indeed, but that one Body of his Flesh, that was prepared, given and broken for us, even his Flesh that he gave for the Life of the World, nor any other Blood of Christ that is drink indeed, but that Blood or death of the Cross, that shedding of his Blood, and powering out his Soul unto death, which he once suffered in that his own Body for our sins, (without which we could have had no remission of them) that he obtaining by it plenteous Redemption even the forgivenesse of sins, might therein also seal and confirm the new Testament of precious promises, and become himself in the man the Mediator of it, and so an high Priest for ever, after the order of Mel­chizedeck. It is onely his being made flesh in that one Body prepared for him, and his works and sufferings finished in that his own body, in which he ap­peared [Page] once in the end of the World to put away sin by the Sacrifice of himself, which the Father hath found out and accepted as a ransom or price of Redemption for sinful and fallen mankind, and by means of which he hath given him glory in that his own Body in which he so Suffered, that our Faith and Hope might be in God, and therefore also it is onely that Cross of Christ, because of the infinite grace there­in testified, which is commended and shed abroad by the Holy Ghost in his evidencing it as already past, as to the actual enduring and suffering it, in that in due time Christ dyed for the ungodly, &c. Rom. 5. 5. 10. and because of the Infinite vertue and pre­ciousness thereof for our help, which is shewed in the discovery of him, as now raised from the dead in the same body in which he Suffered those things, and stand­ing by means of that his death, the prOpitiation for our sins, and our advocate with the Father, &c. (as before) in which all True Believers have the ground of their peace rejoycing and hope, and so in Christ Jesus, all other rejoycings are fleshly and after the sensual mind, whence the Apostle determined not to know any thing among believers, but Jesus Christ and him crucified (not crucifying or often Suf­fering from the foundation of the world) yea God forbid that we should rejoyce in any thing save in the Cross of Christ, by whom the world is crucified to us, and we to the world, for the Preaching of that is to them that perish foolishness, but to us that are saved the Power of God, 1 Cor. 1. 18. 24. and 2. 2. Heb. 9. 25▪ 26. and Gal. 6. 14.

2 That such things as are done and past as to the actual accomplishment of them long before Men had their particular beings in the world, yet may be spiritu­ally fed on by those Men and so eaten and drunk in a like sence, as in which the flesh and blood of Christ is said to be eaten and drunk, though not remaining in a present or sencible being to them, or otherwise then in the virtue and fruit of then; this might be shewed in other things mentioned in the Scripture as Types and pat­terns of this, as the Lords passing over the houses of the Children of Israel in Aegypt, when he smote the Aegyptians was to be remembred and rejoyced in throughout their Generations, and therefore that day to be kept for a memorial, a feast to the Lord by an ordinance for ever, Exod. 12. 12 14 27. So we also are instructed to keep the feast of rejoycing in Christ in thankful commemmoration of what he hath done, for saith the Text, Christ our Passover is sacrificed (not sacrificing or daily and often offering himself, but this he did once, that is the ground of our rejoycing in him evermore, he is sacrificed for us, 1 Cor. 5. 7, 8.)

Again Gods dividing the Sea by his strength, and breaking the heads of the Dra­gons in the waters, and so the broken heads of Leviathan, even Pharaoh and his host as broken and destroyed in the Red Sea, was given for meat to the people in­habiting in the Wildernesse, Psal. 74. 13, 14. though yet Pharaoh and his host was not in a present sensible being, near that people all the time they were meat for them, nor yet their drowning or destruction actually done in their sight or before them all along but once finished, and therefore so worthy to be remembred, and such mat­ter of feeding and rejoycing to them in after ages, Psal. 81. 5. 10. and 78. and 105. and 106. but it is so clear in this which is the Truth and fulnesse of all those Types and Patterns, namely the flesh of Christ and the blood of Christ, and so evident in what is already said of it, that more need not be said to shew and prove that that flesh of Christ, even the words being made flesh in the simili­tude of sinful flesh; and so his whole abasement and sufferings in the flesh, [Page] the dayes of which are past, Heb. 5. 7. 1 Pet. 3. 18. and so his blood, his sufferings even to blood, to death in the flesh, which as to the actual accomplishment and sustain­ing of it is now past and finished, yea therefore because his sufferings and death is so finished, that he is in the virtue and bye means thereof raised and glorified in the same body for us (as is before shewed) so that he can die no more; therefore is his flesh meat indeed, and his blood drink indeed, the Lords Death worthy for e­ver to be remembred and rejoyced in himself in the Infinite Grace of it, and ever­lasting Virtue and Fruit of it, that Bread of God, the Bread of Life, &c. As a­foresaid.

But for a little further demonstration how such a thing may be and is, that even his personal Sufferings and Abasement in the flesh, and so the Lords death may be eaten and drunk; now so long after the actual accomplishment and sustaining of it is past, as also that it might be so before its manifestation or coming forth into actual and sensible being, for he did not often Suffer for sin from the Foundation of the world but once in the end of the world, as Heb. 9. 26. 1 Pet. 3. 18.

For some further demonstration of this, we say, We shall here add a word or two to shew what the eating his flesh and drinking his blood is, or how and in what man­ner it may be eaten and drunk; and so, how the Blood of Christ purgeth the Con­science.

The eating and drinking here is not naturally or bodily with the mouth, but mentally with the Mind, Spirit or inner man, and that not in or by a sensual imma­gination or apprehension of seeing, feeling or proving the works, Sufferings or things that are the bottom, matter of feeding and rejoycing to the heart, as acted in them or in the present time before them, but it is by faith, as Ephes. 3. 16, 17. yea the eating and drinking is an act and exercise of faith, as opposed to sight or sence, we walk (saies the Apostle) (and so the Just shall live, Rom. 1. 17. Heb. 10. 38) by faith, not by sight, and so the life that I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me, and gave himself (note that he saith not is giv­ing or giveth, but gave himself) for me, the love that was manifested in that un­speakable gift and perfect offering of himself already prepared and perfected, and so those works already finished on the earth, through which that love is still mani­fested and commended, are mentioned as the bottom, ground of his faith, and so matter of his feeding, so that though the Apostles had seen the Lord, yet they did not now live by that sight, but by faith as opposed to sight, yea blessed are those that have not so seen and yet believed, (saith our Saviour.) And the Apostle Peter saith, That even those that were partakers of like precious faith with them, yet had not so seen him as they had done, but did believe and rejoyce in him (though now they see him not) John 20. 29. 1 Pet. 1. 8. and it is in such believing on him as the Scripture hath said, that himself and him crucified, and so his flesh and his blood is eaten and drunk, as may be seen in John 6. 35. with chap. 7. 37, 38, 39.

A man believing in and with the heart, the record that God hath given of Christ, that is, receiving withal acceptation, loving and closing with it (according to the understanding given him) as a good and faithful saying, letting it dwell in him, and so having his heart exercised in it and by it, to consider him and stay on his Name as therein set forth, seeking Satisfaction, Rest, Righteousnesse and Strength in him, in such believing, mindfulnesse and dependance on him, and so believing [Page] on him as the Scripture hath said, he is therein said to Eat him and Drink him, or the Bread and Drink he giveth, because therein the heart and mind is so stayed in him, Isa. 26. 5 and exercised with delight and well-pleasednesse about him, and the things of him as to a tasting how Gracious the Lord is, and proving the sweet­ness, fitness and excellency of him in and according to the knowledge of him, so Jeremy saith, Thy words were found and I did eat them, Jer. 15. 16. and because also in such spiritual eating, a man certainly comes to taste, prove and meet with such peace refreshing, joy, strength and blessedness (in the first fruits of the Spirit) as answers to the instruction and ground therein set before him (as also follows in that of Jeremy, thy word was to me the joy and the rejoycing of mine heart, as David also professeth, How sweet are thy words unto my taste, yea sweeter than Honey to my mouth, Psal. 119. 103) for the Word of God works effectually in them that believe and re­ceive it as such, 1 Thes. 2. 13. unto them therefore that believe Christ is precious, for so Christ comes to dwell in their heart, in or by the Faith of him, in what he hath done and is become for us, and in the hope set before us in him, yea he himself as so known & believed by them is in their hearts by faith, the hope of Glory, the ground of it in what he hath done, and the thing hoped for, in what is further to be reveal­ed and done by him.

Now faith is the evidence of things not seen, as well as the confidence of things hoped for, by it our fathers saw and rejoyced in the promises of the Sufferings of Christ, and the Glory that should follow when both were yet afar off to come, Heb. 11. with 1 Pet. 1. 10, 11, 12. And we have much more advantage to behold and re­joyce in him, the works being finished which the Father gave him to do upon the earth, and now the word of faith manifested, the Preaching fully made known with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven, yea therefore because the works are now actually finished (as vertually they were from the foundation of the world) because God hath raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered for our offences, and raised again for our justification, therefore being Justified, by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom also hav­ing now received the atonement (as already made by his blood) we have access by faith into this Grace in which we stand and rejoyce in hope of the Glory of God, and not onely so, but we glory in tribulations also, proving a blessed fruit of them, because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given us in this Preaching of the Cross, that when we were yet without strength in due time Christ dyed for the ungodly, &c. see Rom. 4. 22. 24, 25. with chap. 5. 1. 11. And so the eating his flesh and drinking his blood, as we are now instructed to it, since the works were finished in the Person of Christ which the Father gave him to do on the earth, is signified to be in a believing mindfulnesse and remem­brance of the Lords death as already actually finished and past, and so of him in what he hath therein and thereby compleated in himself for us, therein consider­ing him in the infinite and abiding vertue and preciousnesse of that blood or death of his Cross, as mightily declared in his being raised and glorified in that body, by means thereof, and as brought to us in the preaching of that his Cross, with the evidence and demonstration of the spirit and power, and so in seeking rest, righte­ousness, strength and rejoycing in him, in and by such believing in him; So like­wise the Blood of Christ purgeth the Conscience through Faith in that his Blood, Blood shed or death, and not by shedding blood again, or by doing or [Page] causing to be done, or [...] the [...]ame o [...] like things in their persons that were done and suffered in his person for sin; for to him give all the Prophets witnesse, that through his Name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins, while through his Name the heart is stayed on him in a believing mindfulness and remembrance of him in what he hath done, and so closing with and considering him in what he is thereby become for Sinners, he further powers out his spirit, open­ing and making known his words, and so sprinkling upon the heart his Blood, viz. the discoveries and openings of his blood shedding or death, the infinite vertue and pretiousness of it with the Father; The Grace manifested in and through it, and so makes the Truth even the Preaching of the Cross powerful, in their so knowing it to make them free from the Law and from the Dominion of sin by it, John 8 32. 1 Cor. 1. 18. Acts 20. 32. and 10. 43. with Heb. 9 14. and this the Apostle confirms by his experiment, Rom 8. 2, 3. for the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (which is no other but the Glorious Gospel, with the Light and Power of Gods Spirit in it, Rom. 1. 16, 17. 2 Cor. 3.) that (sayes he) hath made me free from the Law of sin and death; and then speaking to the reason of that efficacy, and the means by which it did it, he shews that it was not by accomplishing those or like works in him as was finished in the Person of Christ, in his being delivered for our offences, and raised for our justification, but in and by the opening and spiritual sprinkling on his Soul that Bloodshedding, or Death and Sufferings of Christ for the Remission of sins, and that in and through the Preaching of it, shewing the pre­tiousness, pertinency and fulness of that to the purpose, for saith he, What the Law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the like­ness of sinful flesh, and for sin condemned sin in the flesh, that the Righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit, minding the things of the spirit, who takes off the things of Christ that he hath suffered & done, and shewing them glorifies him, as the end of the Law for Righteousness to every one that believeth, compare it with, Rom. 5. 1. 11. and chap. 1 [...]3 John 16. 8. 10. 13, 14, 15. and so the Lords death, his once suffering in the flesh for sins, the just for the unjust, which as to the actual accomplishment or sustaining of it is over and past, but for ever accepted, and had in everlasting remembrance with the Father, and in the Fountain of its pretious fruit abiding with him in the man Christ Jesus glorifyed by means thereof, and so evidently set forth to us in the preaching of the Cross, even this is in the Faith, and Believing remembrance of unfained Believers and pretious to them, and so in its pretious Fruits in their mind and conscience, working also through the whole man, through that Faith of the Operation of God, which is the evidence of things not seen, the confidence of things hoped for.

And had these men understood what it is to eat Christs flesh and drink his Blood, and to have the conscience purged with that, they would have been far from so blas­pheming it as a common or prophane thing, as in this question with the other (at least privily) they have done, nor would they have sought room to lift up and mag­nify something else in the name and place of it; But they clearly manifest to those of any right understanding and skil in the Word of Righteousness, that it is not his flesh they eat nor his Blood they drink, for they believe not that his once suffering in the flesh for sin to be so pretious with God as to have obtained such glory into him in the man for us (as before is shewed) and therefore neither do they believe [Page] that to be of such infinite and abiding virtue, as to be the meat and drink of life, and purger of the Conscience (as they signify in this question) and so they believe not on him as the Scripture hath said, as may appear in the answers gi­ven, nor is it the true Christ that is in them, but something else in the name and place of him, it is Swines Flesh they eat, unclean and forbidden things, and the broth of abhominable things is in their Vessels, nor are their Con­sciences truly purged or made good (though they may be seemingly quiet) but still defiled according to the corrupt & unbelieving mind, if not seared as with an hot Iron, for in him whom the Father hath sent and sealed they believe not, nor in the Lords death, the Blood or Death of his Crosse have they their peace, consolation and rejoycing, as further appears in what follows.

Quest. 13. And was the Blood of Christ that was shed, separate from his body, and then bearing record on the earth when John wrote those words, 1 John 5. 8.

A. The Blood of Christ, that is to say, his once Suffering in the Flesh even to the shedding of his Blood, and so to the pouring out his Soul, or life unto death, that blood or death of his Cross, as we have before fully shewed that to be meant by the blood of Christ, by which peace was made and redemption ob­tained and he entered into heaven it self, &c. Yea it is evident to be meant here, for the blood that bears witnesse in earth, is the same mentioned vers. 6. as that by or through which his having come in the Flesh to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself (compare with vers. 6. chap. 4. 2, 3. and Heb. 9. 26.) was perfected. Now it is not simply his sometime having Material and Mortal blood, or his being partaker of Flesh and Blood, but his suffering and en­during even to blood, and so to death in the Flesh, by which together with the Grace of God, he came as our Saviour, and became a Captain of Sal­vation for us and to us, as Heb. 2. 9. 10. 14, 15. and chap. 9. 12. 26.

That Blood of his Cross, his once suffering unto death in the Flesh, and so his death is as we have before shewed past and over, as to the actual accomplish­ment and sustaining of it, yea so separated from his Personal Body, as that all mortality was put off, in his Resurrection from the dead, he dyed once and can dye no more, but the remembrance of it remaineth with the Father who hath received and accepted it, and him by means of it as a sacrifice for ever, and so the infinite Fountain of the pretious virtue and fruit of it is treasured up in the man Christ Jesus whom God hath raised from the dead, and Flow­eth from him in the influences and streams thereof unto men, in the Name of God his Father, and so his blood is still bearing witnesse on earth, for God hath given him, as delivered for our offences, and raised again for our justification, for a Witnesse to the People, a Testimony in due time, Isa. 55. 3, 4. with Acts 13. 34. and 1 Tim. 2 4, 5, 6. and therein this is the first and great thing wit­nessed by the Holy Ghost in which he commends his love to men, and sheds it abroad in the hearts of believers, namely that when we were yet without strength, enemies, ungodly, &c. In due time Christ dyed (not is dying) for us, Rom. 5. 6. 8. with 2 Sam. 14. 14. yea such the powerful efficacies of this blood or death of Christ (that is so past that it can no more be suffered) that [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] where the preaching of it is with the Heart believed, it fills with peace hope and joy through the power of the Holy Ghost in it, it purgeth the Conscience from dead works to serve the Living God, and so also is bearing witnesse on the earth, for he that believeth on the Son of God, hath the witnesse in himself, in his understanding and heart by faith, through which he proves its pretious fruit and effecacy.

So that as the Blood or death of Abel whom Cain slew, when over and past, yet witnessed against Cain, and cryed unto God for vengeance, Gen. 4. 10. 14. so the blood or death of Christ through which his comming in the flesh or first appearing to put away sin by the Sacrifice of himself was perfected, being pre­sented before the Father, in the appearing of the Man Christ Jesus in that Body of his flesh in which he so suffered in the presence of his glory, doth speak better things for us in Heaven, and from thence also in the Name of the Fa­ther, speaks good things on earth, even peace and good will to men, yea it speaks and works effectually in the hearts of them that believe, Heb. 12. 24. but these men, not onely intimately shew their counting this his suffering to blood, to death a common thing, of no more virtue and efficacy then the blood of another person may be, but they also manifest themselves unreasonable and absurd, that cannot understand how a thing actually past and over may still remain in its fruit and efficacy, which they might have seen in other things, as in that of Abels blood forementioned, so also in Gods delivering Israel out of Aegypt, destroying their enemies, his answering Balaam, to the making void the consultations of Balaak and such other wonderful works, being given for a witnesse of his Righteousnesse unto the generations after, Mich. 6. 1. 5. Psal. 81. and 78. and 106.

Quest. 14. And how can the blood of Christ either cleanse any from sin, or give life to any, if the life of Christ be not in it, as Thomas Moor affirmed.

Ans. They wrest Thomas Moors words (as is shewed in the reply to them, pa. 3, and 4. therefore we shall say the lesse to it here.) What he said was by way of return to their saying that the life is in the blood, as applying it to Christ, in answer to which he spake to this purpose, That those sayings, Gen. 9. 4. Levit. 17. 11. 14 are spoken of other mortal Creatures distinct from mor­tal man, and though it may be truly affirmed of mortal man also, as to the na­tural life of the Body, Yet it neither is nor can be truly affirmed of him whom God hath raised from the dead, that his life which he now liveth by the power of God by which he was raised from the dead, is in (or by the supply of) ma­terial blood, as the natural life of the natural and mortal body is, for in him being raised from the dead, all mortality is put off.

But that the life he now liveth by the Father, and in the Power of God for us is by means (and in the virtue) of his blood, or death in the flesh once suf­fered for our sins, by which he hath obtained eternal redemption, and life in­to himself for us, and is the Mediator between God and men, the Apostle and High Priest of our Profession; And that the life he giveth to the World is by virtue of that his Blood; And the life he giveth to them that feed on him by faith, is not onely by virtue of it, but in the Spiritual discoveries of it, and [Page] love commended through it, in the Preaching of his Cross, as before shew­ed, this he also then and still affirmeth, as also is shewed in our former An­swers.

Quest. 15. How many comings of Christ do you own, seeing you have his second coming without sin to salvation yet to look for?

Ans. Hitherto they have played the part of the false Christs foretold by our Saviour, Mat. 24. 24. privily denying the Lord that bought them, as 2 Pet. 2. 1. in the excellency of his personal Body, and the works finished by him in that his own Body on the earth, and in his infinite fulnesse and glory by means of death possessed by him for us, in that body raised from the dead that so they might make way for their lifting up something else in the name an [...] place there­of, as Mat. 24. 5. And now they proceed more plainly to act the part also of the false Prophets there also foretold, vers. 11. 23. 26. scoffing at [...]he promise of his second coming, his glorious personal appearing, as it is owned and ac­knowledged by all that believe through and according to the Apostles Doctrine, as that which is yet to be looked and waited for all the time of this present World, 2 Pet. 3. 3, 4. 10. 12. with Tit. 2. 12, 13. plainly implying they have it not yet to look for, and so intimately saying, Lo here or lo there, in this or that present operation (or sensual imagination) Christs appearing the se­cond time without sin to salvation, and so consequently the resurrection is already made and past to them, as Mat. 24. 23. 26. with 2 Tim. 2. 18. Nor is this any more then is expresly affirmed by them in their pretended answer to J. H. and T. M. Junior, called A brief discovery of the dangerous Principles of J. H. and T. M. &c. where page 9. They say, That the Saints which then were alive remained unto that coming of Christ spoken of, 1 Thes. 4. 15. and Phil. 3. 20. 21. The groundlesnesse, falsenesse and wickednesse of which is shewen in the reply to it; see the fuller discovery of the Dangerous Principles, and lying spirit of the people called Quakers, page to which we refer the Rea­der.

And here also, that we may further shew by the Scriptures the Truth of God reproached by them, and manifest the folly and wickednesse of their spirit, we further answer to this question,

1. There are comings of Christ in a divers sence mentioned in the Scrip­ture, for there are comings of Christ, in respect of which it is said, he came unto his own, even to Israel after the flesh, to gather them, &c. often from the beginning of their being a people, John 1. 11. Mat. 23. 37. yea he was in the World, and went by his Spirit in the ministration of Noah to the Spirits of men then, John 1. 5. 10. 1 Pet. 3. 19, 20 And there are comings of Christ in such a sence spoken of in Scripture, as in respect of which it is said, he appear­ed and came into the World, not often, but once in the end of the World, per­sonally to Minister, and to give his life a ransome for many, and so to put a­way sin by the sacrifice of himself, Matthew 20. 28. 1 Pet. 3. 18. with Heber. 9. 26.

There are providential comings of Christ to men, both more particularly and more generally, and that both in more then ordinary demonstrations of his power and goodnesse in special mercies and blessings, as John [...]. 11. and in [Page] like manifestations of his severity, in some great and signal corrections, or judgements, as Rev. 2. 5. and 3. 3.

There are also spiritual comings and manifestations of himself to men seve­rally in their several times, to the opening and enlightening the blind minds, and moving sinners to repentance, Isa. 50. 2 with c. 42. 1. 7 and 55. 1. 6. 1 Tim. 2. 6. and to the quickening, refreshing, and satisfying the souls of such as hear and receive his sayings, with the further discoveries, openings, tastes, and operations of his goodnesse, such as John 14. 16. 18. 21. 23. Rev. 3. 20. and of his comings in both these sences, there are more then can be numbred, nor of these read we of first or second so called, but then there are also personal and bodily appearances and comings of Christ into the World, or his coming into the world, and appearing on the earth in a real body prepared for him, spoken of in the Scripture, and called the comings and dayes of the Son of man, of Christ, of the Seed of David after the flesh, and of these a first and a second.

The first was when that Body of his flesh was prepared for him in the womb of a Virgin, when the fulnesse of time was come, God sent forth his Son made of a woman, &c. wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, A body hast thou prepared me, Lo I come, &c. Gal. 4. 4. Heb. 10. 5. 10. And so he once in the end of the World (and not often from the foundation of the World) ap­peared to put away sin by the Sacrifice of himself, even by and through the of­fering up his body once for all, which was therefore prepared for him, that he might therein be capable of doing, and do the Will of the Father, for the Re­demption and sanctification of sinful men, even that he might in that body finish the Works the Father gave him to do on earth, and offer up himself a perfect and for ever acceptable Sacrifice, and abide a Priest for ever after the order of Melchizedeck.

The second of these and that so called, is when God shall send us from Hea­ven the same Jesus Christ that was made of the Seed of David after the desh, e­ven him whom they Crucified, slew and hung on a Tree, whom God raised up, whom the Heaven must receive till the restitution of all things; And so when he the Son of man shall appear on the Earth (where he was before hum­bled even to death, made sin and a curse for us) when he shall appear in the same body in which he so suffered, in his own Glory which he obtained for us by sufferings, and now possesseth for us, and so in the Glory of his Father, and with his holy Angels without sin, or any such imputation or fruits of it upon him, as in his first appearing was born by him, for though he knew not sin, yet he was then made sin for us; When he shall so appear in his Glory to the utmost Salvation of those that look for him, and restoring the Creation from under the bondage of corruption under which now it groans, yea to raise and judge all men at that his appearing, and Kingdom, and subdue all things to himself, Acts 1. 1 [...]. and 3. 19, 20, 21. Mat. 16. 27. and 25. 31. and 26. 64. 1 Thes 4. 16. Phil. 3. 21. Heb. 9. 26. 28.

Now of these personal comings of Christ into the World, their queries should mean, because they speak of his second coming, as one of them about which they query, how many we own, and his second appearing so called must be an appearing in such a sence, as in which he once appeared, and but once before [Page] that, and therefore cannot be understood o [...] his appe [...]rances or comings in the formentioned sences, but in the latter only; But this we know, they cannot own any such coming of Christ in such a sence a second time, or af­ter his once suffering in the flesh, they may have an immagination of his ap­pearing, or coming in the flesh often, and in other persons and bodies after, as before he did appear in that one personal body, but they can have no expecta­tion of his appearing again from Heaven in that body of his flesh, his now Glorious body, and in the glory now possessed by him for us, because they be­lieve not that this man continues for ever, nor believe they any such Christ that is the very and the onely Christ, that now hath a personal body of his own di­stinct from all other Spirits and bodies, and is therein not on Earth, but in the Heavens, and therefore can have no expectation of any such coming of his from thence; Their question therefore if plain according to their principles, and to what they design to deny and make void should have been,

Whether we still expect a second or another personal and bodily coming of Christ into the World, or other then hath been already accomplished, and is, or may be fulfilled in all ages, in Divers persons? To which our answer is,

Yea, with much thankfulnesse to God, and rejoycing in him with joy un­speakable, and full of Glory, we do; and though they scoff at us for it, he shall appear to our Glory that so look for him, and they shall be ashamed. But to their Question as it is, having thus distinguished the comings of Christ in divers sences.

2. We further answer, that of personal and bodily comings of Christ into the World, we own two, and no more; the one past, the other yet to come.

1. The first was not of [...]en from the foundation of the World, but once in the end of the World, Four thousand years and upwards from the Creation, and yet now long since, for it was in the dayes of Cesar Augustus, when Herod was De­puty King of Iudea, and when Cyreneus was Governour of Syria, and when there went out a decree from Cesar, that all the World should be taxed, and all went to be taxed every one to his own City, Luke 1. 5. and [...]. [...]. 4. &c. And his coming into the World was on this wise, his body in which he was made flesh of the seed of David, and came into the World, was prepared for him, by the Immediate and wonderful operation of the Holy Ghost, (not in the mind but) in the womb of a woman, a Virgin, and not in any other womb, he was made of a Woman, of one, not of many, a Woman that had not known man, Mary a Virgin of the house of David, espoused to one Joseph a Carpen­ter, a man distinct from other men, who yet had not taken her to wife, and feared to take her after she was found with Child, till he was informed by an Angel, that that which was conceived in her, was of the Holy Ghost, and his Name should be called Jesus, (for he should save his people from their sins) of her he was born at Bethlehem (where his birth was providentially ordered, that the Scripture might be fulfilled) and so in his Birth of Mary, he came not into any man or woman, but into the World, and unto men; And as his con­ception and Birth of Mary was foretold by an Angel, so when born, his Birth in a Stable, in Bethlehem was declared, and he, that very person then, and so born of her proclaimed (though then a Babe) to be Christ the Lord, by Angels with [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] great rejoycing, and when eight dayes were accomplished for the circumcis­ing the Child, his Name was called Jesus, which was so named of the Angel, before he was conceived in the womb, and when about a moneth after his birth, they presented him to the Lord, in the Temple, he was witnessed unto by old Simeon, to whom it had been revealed by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, till he had seen the Lords Christ; He then coming by the Spirit into the Temple, when the Parents brought in the Child Jesus, took him up in his arms and said, Lord now lettest thou thy Servant depart in peace, for mine eyes have seen thy Salvation (even the Lords Christ) &c. Likewise by one Anna a Prophetess, who coming in at that instant, gave thanks likewise to the Lord, and spake of him (even that Child Jesus) to all them that looked for Re­demption in Jerusalem, Luke 2. After this he was carried by Joseph with Mary his Mother into Egypt, till the death of Herod, who sought to slay him, and to that end slew all the male Children in Bethlehem, but slew not him, which he had certainly done in slaying them, if he had been in every or any of them personally, or as in that body of Jesus, but he was not so, he was carried into Egypt, and after brought back by his Father and Mother into Nazareth of Gali­lee, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, he shall be called a Nazarene, and there dwelt with them sometime (whence also he was called Je­sus of Nazareth) and grew in body, and waxed strong in Spirit, fil'd with Wis­dom, and the Grace of God was upon him, Mat. 2. 13. to the end. Luke 2. 39, 40, &c. And when in that body of his, he was twelve years old going up with his parents to Jerusalem, when they returned he tarried behind them (Which he could not have done if personally or essentially in them, as in that his own body) and after seeking him three dayes with sorrow, at last they found him (not in themselves, or in other persons but,) in the Temple sitting in the midst of the Doctors, and he went down with them, and came to Naza­reth, and was subject to them (which was part of his abasement and service) and his mother hid or kept (not his body within her womb any more after born of her, but) his sayings in her heart. And after John (the son of Za­chary, and Elizabeth) his messenger had been preparing his way, Baptizing and Preaching the Baptisme of Repentance, he himself came (the Text saith not into, but) unto John, to be baptized of him; And when he was Baptiz­ed, the Heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descend­ing like a Dove, and lighting upon him, and lo a voice from Heaven saying (not of John, but) of Jesus; This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, (a like voice after in his transiguration before three of his Disciples, they heard from Heaven not speaking of them, but of him, whence they said, that he (not they) received from God the Father Honour and Glory, when there came such a voice to him from the Excellent Glory, 2 Pet. 1. 17, 18. with Mat. 17. 1. 5.) And so John his fore-runner having both seen and heard, professed (not himself, but) this Jesus to be the Christ, and pointed to him, not as in himself, or as in other men, but as a distinct person, standing (not in every of them, but) among them the beholders, though they knew him not, and proclaimed him to be (and called men to behold him as such,) the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the World, John 1. 19. 36. and 3. 26. 36.

[Page]After this, the same Jesus of Nazareth manifested himself, and walked up and down more openly and generally among the Jewes Preaching the Gos­pel, and doing good, calling and choosing Disciples, and was approved of God amongst Friends and Enemies, by miracles and signes which God wrought by him in the midst of them, such as none before him ever did, nor after any like works but in his Name, but he was hated of the Sadduces that deni­ed the Resurrection of the dead, & of the Pharisees that trusted in themselves that they were Righteous, and by their means of the chief of the People, and of many of the inferiour also; At last they arreigned and falsly condemned him, and delivered him to Pilate, and so to the Gentiles to be Crucified, and he was by them hung upon the Tree and Crucified, and when dead, was buried by two Honourable persons (not in themselves, but) in a new Sepulchre, which was sealed and watched by Souldiers, that he might not be stolen away, unto all which the Father delivered him, and he gave himself for our sins.

But he in the same body that was dead and buried, even Jesus of Nazareth, rose again the third day, and was witnessed by Angels to be risen, and not to be there in the grave, the emptinesse of which place & the orderly lying of the cloathes witnessing the same; And then he appearing to his Disciples, shewed himself alive in that very Body, having the very same flesh and bones, hands and feet though now in another quality, [viz.] Spiritual & Immortal, in which they had foreseen him Mortal, then he acquainted them with the ends & necessity of his Death and Resurrection, and shewed & opened to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself, opening their understandings that they might un­derstand the Scriptures, & gave them the Gospel which he had received from his Father, & Commission with commandment to Preach it, & make it known out of the Scriptures of the Prophets to all Nations for the obedience of Faith, and having prayed for their Sanctification, & fitnesse to that service, and for blessing on all that after should believe through their word, he also promised his Spiri­tual presence with them in that Ministration to the end of the World; After which while he blessed them, and while they beheld, he was parted from them in that body of his, and ascended and was received up into Heaven, and according to his promise did soon after send down and powre out upon them the Holy Ghost, to furnish and enable them to their Ministry; And so he hath already come in the flesh, and perfected all that he was to do in his own body in his first coming, as all that read and believe the record God hath given of his Son, and caused to be written for our instruction, may plainly and more fully discern.

Nor was this coming of his ever so seen, nor but by Faith of any before those times, no though it hath been desired by many of them, Mat. 13. 16, 17. Luk. 10. 23, 24. But by Faith they saw it and rejoyced, John 8. 56. with Heb. 11. 1. 12. Nor yet hath it ever been so seen of any since the Apostles so saw it and him, 1 Cor. 15. 5. 8. and Chap. 9. 1. with Chap 4. 9. 1 Pet. 1. 8.

Nor will he ever come in that manner to suffer, and do over those things a­gain so to be seen, John 16. 10. Rom. 6. 9, 10. Acts 13. 34. But these things are written concerning him even this Jesus, that we may believe that he is the Son of God, the Lords Christ, and that believing we may have life through his Name, John 20. 31. And so our sight is onely in believing by Faith, as [Page] Heb. 11. 1. 3: Yea they are pronounced blessed that having not seen him, so as the Apostles did, yet have believed, John 20. 29. In which believing to un­derstand and know him to have come in the flesh, and to have done and to be that for us, as the Testimony recorded declareth, is to know him not after the flesh, or carnal and sensual mind, but after the Spirit, according to the Testi­mony he hath already given of him, and in his Light and Power shining and working in and with that Testimony by which onely these things now not so seen as before are made evident plain and powerfully nigh, that they might be believed with the heart, and confessed with the mouth, and still made further precious to and effectual on them that believe, 2 Cor. 5. 14, 15, 16, 17. &c. Rom. 1. 16, 17. and 10. 6. 9, 10.

And whosoever now boast of having otherwise seen his first coming, his ap­pearance and Manifestation in the flesh, is a lyar; Yea, neither is this Jesus who is the very Christ now in that his own personal body in the World, we have him not so with us as we have the Power, (viz.) In bodily presence, the Heavens do receive him till the times of restitution of all things, and from thence he is in the name of the Father vertually and Spiritually among men, as before is shewed; And whosoever denyeth this Jesus to be the very Christ is of Antichrist, and what do they lesse that confesse him not, or do not Preach or lift up the Son of man, as already come in the flesh, and having finished the works in his own body the Father gave him to do on the Earth, and so as being by means thereof glorified in that very body in the highest Heavens with the Fa­ther (compare 1 John 2. 22. with Chap. 4. 3. and John 3. 14. 16. 1 Tim 3. 16. Heb. 3. 26.) But put the Name of Christ upon something that in their imma­gination is daily coming in the flesh, and so appearing and suffering in the flesh for the putting away of sin often from the foundation of the World, and is not now in a real personal Glorious body in the Heaven of heavens above the Earth, but in the immaginary heaven in them on the Earth, and call that their Idol the good Seed, the Light, and that Jesus that is the Christ, as is the scope of this and the former Queries; But our Jesus that is the very Christ of God, who not often but once in the end of the World, hath appeared to put away sin by the Sacrifice of himself, & is now not on Earth, but in Heaven with the Father in his spotlesse and Glorious body, appearing in the presence of God for us, the great Apostle and high Priest of our profession he is therefore, and from thence in the Name of the Father, sending forth his Spirit in his Testi­mony to us, and therein Spiritually and powerfully present with us, preserv­ing us from their delusions, and strengthening us (in believing that very Jesus to be the Son of God) to overcome their assaults, and still to wait for that his coming again, which is truly and properly called his second coming which we are sure they have never seen, nor is it yet come nor hath been to any, what ever any vainly imagine, and boast of For,

2. Of this next and second coming of Christ, it is affirmed by the Spirit of Truth,

1. That it shall be in the same body in which he suffered, and rose from the dead the third day, and shewed himself to his Disciples alive after his passion, even the same Jesus, which while they beheld, was taken up from them into [Page] Heaven, Acts 1. 9. 10. and 3. 31. 15. 20, 21. Mat. 26. 64.

2. His so coming shall be (not a coming up in any man, but) a coming down from Heaven, the Heaven above, as opposed to the Earth beneath, whence tis said he shall descend or come down (which in respect of Glorious state, or dig­nity, he never shall, as before is shewed,) 1 Thes. 4. 16. 2 Thes. 1. 7. Phil. 3. 20.

3. In this his coming, all that sleep in Jesus with all of that body then sur­viving, shall first see him, but not one of them before another, for in his very descending from Heaven before he appear upon the Earth, by the sound of his voice in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, the dead in Christ shall be raised, and the survivers of that body shall then be changed, and all of them suddenly caught up together to meet the Lord in the Ayre, 1 Cor, 15. 51, 52. 1 Thes 4. 14, 15, 16, 17.

4. This his coming then will be visible, as the lightning that shines from the East, and cometh even to the West, Mat▪ 24. 27. Luke 17. 24. So as every eye shall see him, even those that shall wail before him, Rev. 1. 7. Mat. 24. 30. and 26. 64. Mark 13. 26. and 14. 62.

5. This his visible coming shall be unto the Earth (not with some, but) with all his Saints with him, (they being raised, and changed as aforesaid) and he shall then fully deliver the oppressed, and slay all the wicked, even eve­ry one that doth not presently submit to serve him and his People, Zach. 14. 1. 5. 2 Pet. 3. 5, 6, 7. Psal. 75. 10. and 149. 2 Thes. 1. 7, 8, 9, 10.

6. Then not onely all his Saints that come with him shall have Immortal bodies, being as and equal to the Angels, Luke 20 36. But also he will then restore all things, even the other part of the Creation distinct from man that were made subject to vanity, delivering it from the bondage of Corruption, renewing the face of it, for he shall make new Heavens and new Earth, and all things new, Acts 3. 20, 21. Isa. 6. and 65. 17. 2 Pet. 3. 10. 13. Rev. 21. 1. 5. Rom. 8. 19. 23.

And then shall he take to him his great Power, and Reign, sitting on the Throne of David in Power and great Glory, and set those that have been his suffering Saints on Thrones, and they shall Reign with him on the Earth, and judge the World, until the finall and Eternal Judgement seize upon all the ungodly, at the last and general Resurrection, Isa 9. 7. Rev. 11. 15. 18▪ Luke 1. 31. 32, 33, with Mat. 25. 31. &c. Dan. 7. 13. 14. 18. 27. 1 Cor. 6. 2. Rev. 5. 10. and [...]. 4. 6, &c.

More might be, (but enough is) said, to shew that his second coming (so called in Scripture) his glorious appearing never yet hath been to any, nor now is, and though it be the day of the desire and longing of all unfeigned be­lievers, yet none of them shall see or injoy it, otherwise then by Faith in the hope of it, and powerful efficacies of that hope retained until they shall all see it together, Luke 17. 22. 24. 37. 2 Tim. 4. [...], Heb. 11. 40. 2 Thes. 2. 1. with Chap. 1. 7. Yea they are all looking and waiting for it all the time of this pre­sent World, while also they are waiting for the Redemption of the Body, Tit. 2. 12, 13. Heb. 9. 28. Rom. 8. 19. 25. Phil. 3. 20. 21. And if any say they have it, or have seen it, otherwise then by Faith as aforesaid, and so lo here is Christ or there, such are false christs and false prophets, and we on such [Page] grounds as forementioned or warned, not to believe or go after them, Luke 17. 23, 24. Mat. 24, 23, 24. As likewise, if they say with Himmeneus, the Resurrecti­on is past already, 2 Tim. 2. 18. Nor shall such scoffs or scoffers, as 2 Pet. 3. 4. or as these appear in this question, make us ashamed to professe We yet look and waite for this his second appearing and coming, knowing that whatever reproach or denyal of it such make, he that shall come will come and will not tarry longer then the appointed time, which also hastens; in his times God shall send and shew him, &c. Acts 3. 20. 1 Tim. 6. 14, 15. Heb. 10. 37.

16. Query, What are those seeds that must have every one his own body in the Resur­rection, and whether are they Natural, or Spiritual?

Answ. Having fought against the being of the Glorious body of Christ and the Ex­cellency of his works done or doing in that body, which they privily deny to be, & so also against the truth of his coming again, as before; They now proceed to fight a­gainst the Faith and hope of the Resurrection of the dead, which the Apostle affirmeth and largely proveth shall be by Jesus Christ, 1 Cor. 15. Calling it all a­long the Resurrection of the dead, yea when he speaks of it, as denyed by some among them, he saith not simply, how say some among you, there is no Resurrection, but how do they say there is no Resurrection of the dead? It seemes they did or might acknowledge a Resurrection so called by them, such as might be made and passe upon them in this day, but the Resurrection of the dead they denied, vers. 12. 16. 20, 21. 32. 35. 42. And its not the Spirit or Soul of the man distinct that dies in the death spoken of, or ceases to be in a sencible being, much less the new man, or mind, and Spirit of Christ received by and in the believer, but its the natural body that dies, and being dead is sown in the Earth, which is that of which these would insinuate by these queries, that there is no Resurrection af­ter the natural or bodily death; And to that purpose here signifie this as their no­tion, that the seeds that must have in the Resurrection every one his own body, are not natural, but Spiritual; For further answer therefore to their Query, and for evincing the Doctrine of the Resurrection of the dead, and manifesting the folly of their subtilty in this question, and the following, we say,

1. This question is foolish and unlearned, for no Scripture speaks of seeds that must have every one their own body in the Resurrection; But the Apostle tells us of seeds that men sow, expresly of Wheat, or other Grain, to which God gives a body as pleases him, and to every seed its own body, and they are natural seeds.

Again they wrest the Metaphor, and Comparison, confounding it with the thing to be set forth by it, not regarding or being willingly Ignorant, that Metaphors and Comparisons hold not in every thing, but in such things onely as serve to set forth in some resemblance the thing for which they are used, and its no wrong to answer them in this query according to their folly, as 1 Cor. 15. 36. &c. Thou fool, that which thou sowest (mark, thou sowest as differing it from bodies sown by God, in his changing them by Death) is not quickened except it die, nor saith he that the same it, or seed is not quickened after it dies, but it is not quickened before, or except it die; And that which thou sowest, thou (he saith not God, but still pro­ceeding in the Metaphor, Thou) sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain, (these and such are the seeds spoken of, of which he saith) but God (he saith not thou) giveth it a body as it pleaseth him, [Page] and to every seed his own body, so then tis the same it which men sowe a bare grain, to which God giveth a body for Glory, Beauty and Fruitfulnesse as it pleaseth him; And had they understood the similitude and the end and use of it here, it might have preserved them from denying the Resurrection, and living again (af­ter the natural and bodily death) of the same body that died or dies, either of the person of Christ or of the persons of men, that shall by him be raised from the dead, for it is used as a resemblance of both, as appeares by comparing it with vers. 20. 23. Where Christ is risen from the dead, in the vertue and for the worth of his own righteousnesse, in laying down his Life for us, that he might take it again, is mentioned as the first fruits of them that slept, the first born from the dead (as also, Col. 1. 18. Acts 26. 23.) And then the rest that die in Adam are mention­ed, as afterward to be raised by him in their own order at his coming, and King­dom. Now this similitude follows as a resemblance of the resurrection both of him and them, and in answer to a sensual question, or cavil (like this of theirs) which he supposes some ignorant and foolish men might make, how are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come? And therefore he propounds the question & gives the answer in terms of the present time rather then of the time past, or to come, because he includes both the resurrection of Christ who was already rais­ed, and the resurrection of all men that now die in Adam which is yet to come, both being well included and expressed under such termes, how are the dead raised, & with what body do they come? That is, how is it both in that which is perfected in him, and shall be afterward perfected by him, as ver. 23. and therefore also he still speaks in such phrase or manner of speaking in the present tense in the similitude, and further answer following.

And so we shall finde our Saviour sometimes using the same Metaphor in a like similitude, to resemble the necessity, vertue and preciousnesse of his own death for us, and the power and fruitfulnesse of his Resurrection by means thereof, as in John 12. 24. Where after he hath told them, ver. 23. that the hour is come, that the Son of man should be Glorified, namely (as appeares in what follows) in suf­fering the judgement of this World, and on the finishing of that, in being raised and Glorified (in that body) with the Fathers own self, (compare ver. 23. with ver. 24. 27. 31, 32. and Chap. 13. 31, 32. and Heb. 2. 9, 10.) He then adds, veri­ly, verily I say unto you, except a corn of Wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone, but if it die it bringeth forth much Fruit; its evident by what is before noted, that our Saviour there in the comparison points at himself, and his own death and resurrection. He onely is that man that without his abasement and death, might have abode alone without us, in his own Excellence and Glory, but then he could not have redeemed mankind, nor have brought many Sons to Glory; now as the corn of Wheat that dieth riseth up after in its stalk to many corns, so he dying one for all, is so likewise quickened, or raised from the dead for or in the behalf of them all, that he is the resurrection and the Life for them, and they shall all be made alive from the first death by him, some to Eternal Life, others to eternal Damnation; The Wheat, they that have done good, shall be gathered into his Garner; the chaffe, they that have done evil shall be burnt with unquenchable fire, and all by him, and as the fruit of his once dying for them, who therefore di­ed, rose and revived that he might be Lord of all, the Judge of quick and dead, not [Page] so any other man, or men, and so he mostfully answers the similitude or compa­rison as used in that, 1 Cor. 15. 36, 37. also.

But now Christ being risen from the dead, is become the first fruits of them that sleep, and the first fruits and harvest must needs be both of one and the same kind, as to the thing to be raised, though the first fruits be more excellent and glorious in it self, then the following; His resurrection therefore being the resurrection of the body, the resurrection of others by him must needs be the resurrection of their bo­dies also, for since by man came death (and was not that also the death of the Body) by man also the resurrection of the dead, (and is not that the body) for as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive. So then,

2. We further say with the Apostle in his following answer, and application of the comparison, the same body that is now a natural body, it, even the same that is sown in corruption, it is raised in the Resurrection after Death, in in­corruption; it, the same it or body that is sown in dishonour (having nei­ther Life, Breath, Beauty, or Fitnesse for Society) it is raised in honour; it, the same that is sown in weaknesse (so as it cannot help it self but moulders to dust) it is rais­in power (and so in Immortality;) It, the same It, or body that is sown a natural body, it is raised a Spiritual body; For there is a natural Body, and such are all men first, and there is a Spiritual Body, and such shall the same bodies be that were sown natural Bodies in the resurrection, the same shall be Spiritual Bo­dies, it is the same body in a new quality; And as it is absurd and unreasonable to immagine that that Body that suffers much even to death for the name of Christ, shall after death cease for ever, and another Body that never so suffered, be raised and Glorified in stead thereof, or that the body that runs on in wickednesse, and is yeilded up to unrighteousnesse even to death, shall from thence cease to be for ever, and another Body rise that never so acted the sin, nor was imployed in the ser­vice of it, and suffer the punishment for the former, for we must all appear before the righteous Judgement Seat of Christ, that every one may receive in his Body the things in the fruit or reward of them done in his Body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad, for what a man soweth, that shall he the man reap, be not deceived, God is not mocked, 2 Cor. 5. 10. Rom. 14. 9, 10, 11, 12, Gal. 5. 7, 8. &c.

So likewise it is as absurd to think there can be a resurrection of that which never died, or before it be dead; Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened except it die, &c. as before, it is the dead that rise in the Resurrection, Luke 20, 37. Mark▪ 12. 25, 26.

17. Query, And must not every seed have a body of its one Nature?

Answ. In this question, that they may render absurd the belief and acknowledg­ment of the resurrection of the dead body, which while it lives here is vile and mortal in it self, and in death further corrupts and turns to dust.

They imply, that every seed must have a body of its own Nature, and so that if the mortal and dead Body rise, it must rise the same, or in the same Quality, or manner of being (for so much they include in its own nature) in which its sown, namely Vile, Mortal, Weak, &c. In all which it clearly appeares, they there­fore so greatly err, even as the Sadduces of old, because they know not the Scriptures, as likewise, neither the Power of God, Mark. 12▪ 24 27.

For the Scripture saith expresly in the forementioned similitude, that which thou [Page] sowest, thou sowest not that body that it shall be, but bare grain, &c. But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body, the same corn is quickened after it dyes in the ground, and so retains its nature or kind, as Wheat or some other grain, but in the quickening is changed into another quality or manner of being, and glory as in the blade, and after the ear and fruit as afore­said.

So likewise in the Resurrection of the dead (yea more fully and clearly, for such resemblances have not the lively Image of such greater things to come as yet are shadowed or resembled by them) the same Body of man that dyed and was buried is raised, and so every Soul shall have its own proper Body which it laid down or departed out of, but not in the same quality or manner of being (which is all one with the nature or kind of beings in these mens confusions.) But as we have shew­ed already, its the same body in a new or other quality or manner of being than that in which it was sown, for it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual bo­dy, &c. as before, yea Christ himself was crucified through and in weakness, but he (even the same he that dyed and was buried as before is shewed) he was raised and liveth in the Power and Glory of God.

But it appears in these Questions, and by their consounding the Seeds in the simili­tude with the bodies of men resembled by them (and spoken of as sown in death and raised in the Resurrection) especially if we compare these and the next Que­stion with their discourses and writings on this subject, that they are of no faith or judgement concerning any other Resurrection either of the just or unjust, then such an imaginary Resurrection, as is made or may be atrained in this life, and that is not not a Resurrection of the man or dead body (that cannot be except it first die, and so not before its death, nor is that in their imagination) but of some Seeds sown in man distinct from the body of the man, and so the resurrection of the just in their vain thought, is when that they call the good Seed of which some of them dream, Christ takes flesh in the man, and sometimes they call it Christ, and the light within, when this gets above the other Seed, and gets victory over the lusts in the man, and that is the Resurrection to praise and to life; likewise the resurrection of the unjust is nothing else with these Dreamers but the rising or getting above of the evil seed or seed of the Serpent in every or any man, distinct from the man or Bo­dy of the man, and when that rises, it rises to condemnation and death, that is [according to their meaning, that it may be condemned and judged to death by the other Seed, yet can they not tell us who sew these Seeds, and when, nor what Bodies they have before they die; yea, according to this their imagination, the re­surrection of the unjust is usually or often first, contrary to the order of the Resur­rection of the dead witnessed in the Scriptures of truth, and there may be also ma­ny Resurrections of both the just and the unjust, whereas the Scriptures mention but one, a Resurrection [not many Resurrections] and that of the dead, both of the just and unjust, but every man in his own order; but more need not here be added to shew the filthiness of this Satanical Dream, the mention of it is enough, with what hath been already said to shew the Dreamers to be denyers of the Resurrection of the Bodies of men that die in Adam, that is after the natural or Bodily death, and so of the Resurrection of the dead affirmed and shewed in the Scripture, and to e­vince the truth of that Doctrine, against all their endeavours to overthrow it, ye [...] [Page] something further we shall add to this subject in answer to their next Question.

Quest. 18. And whether the wicked upon whom after Death Judgement is come, whose Souls are in Hell, must afterward come out of Hell again to receive a second Judgement?

Ans. This Question needs no other answer but the mention of that Scripture, Rev. 20. 12, 13. which speaking prophetically of the final and Eternal Judgement, saith expresly, That Death and Hell delivered up the dead which were in them, and they were judged every one according to his works, ther's death and hell delivering up their Prisoners to Judgement.

But because in this last Question especially they manifest their horrible Corrup­tion and infidelity about the Doctrine of the Resurrection of the dead and Eternal Judgement, and what Deriders and Scoffers of both they be, even against the plain­est assertions of Scripture, as in the fifteenth Question they are of Christs personal coming the second time; and that we may further bear witnesse to the Truth (de­nyed and reproached by them) for the good of others, we shall here add something further in return to this Question; also noting the palpable wickednesse of the in­tention and scope of it, and the falshood, and folly they are found in, in their pur­suit of such a wicked enterprise.

1. The intention and scope of it is to fasten an error upon the Doctrine of the re­surrection of the dead, and their coming forth to an Eternal Judgement after death, viz. That if so, then the wicked must come out of hell again after sentenced and sent thither, and thereby to give a total overthrow to that doctrine of the resurrection of the dead Bodies of men, and their coming forth to Eternal judgement after the na­tural and bodily death, and so to make God a lyar, even in those his most plain and full manifestations of the Truth, by the Son himself, who having declared the pow­erful efficacy of his voice (as now speaking from heaven in the glorious Gospel) for making those dead in sins and trespasses to hear, and to the quickening and pre­serving in life those that in hearing hear, and said, that hour is coming and now is, John 5. 25. he biddeth them vers. 28. not marvel at that, for the hour is coming,) he saith not as before and now is, but onely that it is coming, and in leaving out that clause and now is, having mentioned it in the former declaration, he fully implies that the hour here spoken of in the 28. vers. now is not, but certainly cometh after the fore­mentioned hour or time that was then begun, even when God shall send us Jesus who before was preached to us, as Acts 3. 20. with Mat. 24. 14. See the instruction to the living from the consideration of the future state of the dead by T. M. Junior, pages 15, 16, 17, 18, 19. the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves (in the dust of the earth, and in the disappearing state of death) shall hear his voice, and shall come forth, namely out of their graves, they shall be wholly freed and made alive from the first death, Hos. 13. 14. 1 Cor. 15. 22. they that have done good shall come forth unto the Resurrection of life, and they that have done evil unto the resur­rection of Damnation, for even death and hell shall deliver up the dead that are in them, and they shall be judged every one according to his works as before is shewed.

This is that which the scope of this question is to deny, and so consequently that Christ is risen from the dead, for if the dead rise not, then is not Christ risen, and so in the denyal of this the Apostles whole Preaching is rendred vain, and faith in Christ as Preached by them vain also, yea they are therein proclamed false witnes­ses of God, because they have testified of him, that he raised up Christ whom he [Page] raised not up, if so be the dead rise not, 1 Cor. 15. 12. 15.

2. In their pursuit of this end, they make lies and mistakes their desence, that which they first suppose and take for granted, as that in which their chief strength lies, is neither granted by us nor so expressed in the Scripture, but according to the import of it in their query very erroneous, viz. that judgement is come upon the wicked after death, now that by is come, they mean is now already come as soon as they are dead, and that by Judgement they mean, the whole of the judgement, is clear by their bringing it to disprove and deride a coming forth again to any other or further judgement, and so its very false; for though judgement may come upon them in this life, and their death is a terrible Judgement, it proves so accidental­ly to them, through their misimprovement of their time, because it cuts them off from further space of repentance, they being from thence sealed up and reserved as Prisoners in the Pit, to the judgement of the great day of Christ, yet neither is the one or the other, that great and Eternal judgement, unto which all the ungodly that continue such till death are reserved to be punished, nor doth that seize on them till that day of judgement, whence it is alwayes truly called the wrath to come, and not that is already come upon any; and so much is plain in that, Heb. 9. 27. with vers. 28. to which they would seem to allude, especially if compared with other Scriptures, see the text, as it is appointed to men once to die, he speaks of men in­definitely, and so of the whole kind, for all shall once dye, though some shall not sleep in death, but suffere a sudden change, in which both death and resurrection shall be accomplished upon them in a moment. But after this the judgement, he saith not that then, or (as these) that after this the judgement is come, as if it were already come upon such of them as are dead, or should come upon any that die, before the rest (at least of their generation or sort of men) have finished their course as well as they; But after this the Judgement, even after this appointment of the whole kind once to die, is fulfilled on all generations, then will be the general, final and Eternal judgement; And though those that now sleep in Jesus and have suffered with him, shall have their judgement come upon them, their Kingdom & glory given them to possess, first before the rest of the dead, yet that will not be till the time and state of the Resurrection of the just that have suffered with him, for they shall first rise from the dead, neither will that be till the begin­ning of that great day of Christ, when the dayes of sufferings and trouble to that generation will be ended; So that the judgement that properly so called, as distinguished from other Judgements in this life, that are temporal and re­versible, even the Eternal judgement that is after death, it is in the time and state of the Resurrection, for there shall be a General Resurrection of both the just and unjust, in which they shall come forth to their judgement, and that shall be to both at the hour or day of Christ, even at his appearing, and his Kingdom, Acts 24. 15. John 5. 28, 29. 2 Tim. 4. 1. and so much also appears in that which follows, Heb. 9. 28. where after he hath said as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgement, he adds as a remedy against the e­vil that otherwise might be unto men in that death or that judgement following; so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many, and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin to salvation; now as his first appearing to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself answers to the first death and misery, and [Page] was effectual, that by Christ we should be saved from perishing in it, and that through him we might be saved, so his second appearing without sin to Salvation answers to the judgement after death, and is such as by it all those that now through his grace bringing salvation to all men in due time do look for him, shall be saved from wrath through him, even from the wrath to come, when it shall come forth in that judgement, so as they shall stand in the judgement even before the Son of man when he appears, and the second death shall have no power on them, yea they shall then be saved to the utmost by that his appearing, yea he shall then appear to their sal­vation in that judgement which implies his appearing the second time to be first, and the judgement after death following upon it, at that his appearing and his King­dome to come upon men in the time and state of the resurrection as before is shewed, compare with the forementioned Scriptures, Heb. 6. 2. Rev. 20. 12, 13.

Again their folly is manifest in taking up a sence of the Word Hell, from some common contradions without examination, as if in every place it signified that place and state of torment in which the wicked are to be punished for ever after the passing of the Eternal judgement upon them; whereas they might have known the word Hell is used in Scripture generally for that which is deep and low, obscure and dark; And so

1. Sometime for the Grave or disappearing state of death, whence tis often translated grave, from which and from the power of it there is a redempti­on and deliverance, though no man can redeem himself, &c. Psal. 49. 8, 9. 15. and 89. 48. Job 17. 13. 16. with Hos. 13. 14.

2. Sometime for any such distress or misery as threatens death, and as in which a man is in darknesse that he can see no way out, or how deliverance should come, out of which yet there may be deliverance, though he see not how, as Jonahs being in the Whales belly, Jonah 2. 2, 3. &c. see also Psalm 86. 13. & 88. 6. and 116. 3, 4, &c.

3. Sometime for that place and state of darkness and separation from God into which the Spirits of ungodly sinners that dy in their sins are cast and shut up from the time of their departing out of the body, unto the judgement of the great day; for when the body returns to its dust, then the spirit returns to God who gave it, (Ecles. 3. 21. and 12. 7.) by him to be appointed to its proper place, by whom the Spirits of Believers, such as die in the Lord, are received into Paradise, a place and state of pleasure and rest in heaven under the altar, on which the perfect Sacrifice was offered, sometimes called Abrahams bosom, tis such as in which they are from the time of their departure out of the flesh or body with the Lord made perfect, (so much as the Spirit without the body is capable) yet still waiting for the re­demption of the Body and Glorious Kingdom promised; And so likewise by him the Spirits of the disobedient, that persisted in the refusal of him, till their sin was finished, are when they depart out of the body, at the death of the body driven away, shut cut from his presence, shut up as prisoners in some place and state of darknesse, where they are reserved to the judgement of the great day, Prov. 14. 32. Isa 24. 22. 1 Pet. 3. 19, 20. And this is called hell, Psal. 9. 17. Luke 16. 23. Rev. 20. 13. that hell that follows or goes along with the first death, Rev. 6. 8. That might have been an everlasting Prison to the Souls or Spirits of all man­kind, had not Christ abolished death by his appearing, and obtained a release of all [Page] Mankind unto him, and the Keys of Hell and Death into his hand. But now by him, that Hell going with or pertaining to the first death, as in this last sence is onely appointed for a prison for all the ungodly, in which they shall be re­served as in chains of darknesse to the judgement of the great day, where also they are fil'd with unspeakable horror and torment in their spirit, in the remembrance and sence of what they have lost, and for what lying vanities, and what they must shortly and for ever suffer in soul and body together reuni­ted; And out of this Hell there shall be such a deliverance, as may be resem­bled by the deliverance of Prisoners to judgement, so Rev. 20. 13. John. 8. 28, 29. in which yet they are not delivered out of darknesse, but still in a state of separation from God, and the Light of his countenance brought forth to receive their bodies that slept in dust, and in them to receive their final conviction and judgement. Again

4. Sometime (and but seldome the word Hell singly, but) Hell fire is u­sed for that wrath to come, the lake of fire prepared for the Devil and his angels, which is to man the second death, into which they are not cast while the body is held in the grave, and the spirit detained in prison in the first Death, this is that unquenchable fire ever burning and that can never be quenched, no not to them that are cast into it, the raised bodies of men being in that equal to the evil angels, they can never more cease to be or be ever free from sencible Suffering, nor will the Worm in their Spirits ever cease tormenting; This is that lake of fire into which the first Death and Hell shall be cast, when they have delivered up all the dead that was in them, and so shall be destroyed and swal­lowed up in this that shall remain and burn on all the ungodly for ever, see for this, and who they are, and when they shall be cast into it, Rev. 20. 11. 15. and 21. 8. Mat. 25. 41. 46 with Mark 9. 43 48. so that out of this, after men are in it, here is no deliverance in any sence; but none are in this until they be brought forth of their graves, and delivered up by Death and Hell as fore­mentioned, except those that at his appearing shall be taken and cast alive into that lake of fire, without being detained any time in prison as the rest are, Rev. 19 20. with chap. 20. 10.

Now had these men understood the Scripture, and so these things as there distinguished and set forth, they would not have counted it at all absurd, that souls in Hell (bodies in dust, and spirits in prison) should come forth again to receive their final judgement, yea had they in the least believed God to be true in his sayings, they would not have dared so plainly to have contradicted and blasphemed them, though they could not have understood them, seeing the Holy Ghost speaketh expresly of the Final and Eternal Judgement, when all the dead that have died in their sins from the beginning of the World to the latter end of it, shall at once be raised and brought forth to that judgement, and there and to that faith, Death and Hell delivered up the dead which were in them.

But they have clearly shewed themselves to be of that sort that deny the Resurrection of the dead, and the Eternal Judgement of all men witnessed in the Scripture, as yet to come and to be passed and executed upon them by that man Christ Jesus, whom God hath ordained to judge the world in Righteousnes, [Page] whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Question, 19. Whether the receiving Bread and Wine to shew the Lords death, be to continue an Ordinance in the Church till the end of the World, yea or nay?

Answ. This and the three following questions aptly follow the former to a further discovery of their Antichristian Spirit. For

As Jesus Christ having ascended on high, and received gifts in the man, hath given gifts unto men, and therein set in the Church,

First Apostles, that were chosen witnesses of his personal body (in which he the Word was made flesh, and humbled himself unto the death of the Cross as now raised from the dead, and received up into glory, having finished the works the Father gave him to do in that body on the earth, that repentance and re­mission of sins should be preached in his name unto all Nations, and so as wise Master builders, layers of the foundation Doctrinally; As likewise he hath gi­ven and appointed to be still in continual exercise, a gift and office (inferior to the Apostles) for instructing in, and opening (out of the Scriptures of the Pro­phets and Apostles) the foundation as already laid by them in the word of the beginning of Christ, and for directing to and building on that foundation in wit­nessing him as already come in the flesh, and having finished the works (as a­foresaid) and so for Doctrinal shewing forth the Lords death, and the pretious­nesse thereof with the Father for us and in his Name to us, and to manifest the goodnesse and righteousnesse of God therein, Luke 24. 44. 48. John 17. 18. 20. &c. 1 John 1. 1. 5 Rom. 1. 1. 5 and 16. 25 26. 1 Cor. 3. 10. 11.

Secondarily, Prophets, or the gift and office of prophesie, to shew distinctly out of the Scriptures, and from the foundation as already laid, the things to come, even the Resurrection of the dead and Eternal Judgement, and so the grace and glory to be brought to us at the glorious appearing of Christ from Heaven, for encouragement to look to him, and for the edification and com­fort of those that wait for him, which gift & office was primely given to the A­postles, and is also included in that inferior gift & office forementioned as given to believers since, and the choise to be desired by them (whence that is called prophesying, 1 Cor. 14 1. 3 and 12. 28. which also is called, Ephes. 4 11. pro­phecying and evangelizing) John 15. 26, 27 and 16 13, 14, Titus 2. 11. 13, 14, 15.

Thirdly Teachers, or the gift of teaching, for applying, instructing and di­recting to the usefulness of both, namely of that which he hath already done, and is become for us in himself the ground of all the Redemption already wrought and obtained by his Blood, and the infinite and abiding efficacy of it in what he is now doing, and of that Salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, as the end of all from both together, to teach Transgressors the way that sinners may be converted to him, and to lead Believers into all truth, teaching them that denying ungodlinesse and worldly lust, they should live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world, looking for that blessed hope and the Glorious appearing of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ, Tit. 2. 13, 12, 13. 1 Pet. 1. 10. 14. &c. John 16. 8. 14.

So on the other hand, Anti-christ that was to come in these last dayes, and is already come, he hath his contrary gifts and work, yet coming in the name [Page] of Christ, and as Apostles, and Prophets, and Teachers of Christ, but in a directly opposite and contrary strain (though subtilly and with hidden things of dishonesty, for such are false Apostles, deceitful Workers, &c.)

They to prepare and make way for their false Apostolizing, in which they lift up something else in the name and place of Christ, in respect of what he hath already done, and is become in himself for us and for their false prophe­cying, in which they magnifie something else in the name and place of him, in respect of what he will do in his second and glorious appearing, and for their false Teaching, in which they direct to another Light and Teacher, and teach otherwise, not consenting to sound words, even the Words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Doctrine according to goodlinesse; to this purpose we say, they seek with design in the first place to cast him down from his excellency in his person and works, and to render his Ordinances contemptible, and that they may effectually pull down the house with both their hands (as the foolish wo­man) they pursue their wicked enterprize in this order, as may be seen in these Queries.

1. Seeking to make void and of no effect the Personal Cross of Christ in what he hath already done and compleated in himself thereby for men, and so privily to deny the Lord that bought them, and render the Preaching of his Cross and faith in him of no effect.

2. To overthrow the Hope of the Gospel, even of the second personal com­ing of Christ from Heaven, and the Salvation then to be revealed, and so to undermine the Doctrine of the Resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judg­ment by the man Christ Jesus.

3. Thereby to render needless, useless and contemptible, those his wayes and Ordinances, in which he hath appointed us to remember him in what he hath done, and thence to consider him in what he is thereby become for us and to us, and to be exercised in our waiting for his second coming, and the salvati­on then to be revealed, and surely where they can prevail in the two first, they may easily prevail in the latter, for to what end or purpose should they observe any of those his wayes and Ordinances that are appointed for remembering and shewing forth the Lords death, and the infinite and abiding virtue and preti­ousnesse of that, and that in them we should be exercised to an expectation and waiting for his second coming, who believe neither, so as to have their faith in the first, and from thence their hope of the second; for if the dead rise not, then is not Christ risen from the dead, and then neither can there be any expectation of his coming again in that body in which he suffered, or of any hope by him in or of another life after death, and then the Apostles preach­ing is vain, and the Ordinances as delivered by them of no use or worth to be kept by us, baptizing in the Name of Christ as delivered by them, and so the Supper of the Lord empty and unprofitable things.

And doublesse if these men (as they seem to intimate) do grant any use of such an Ordinance for shewing forth the Lords Death at any time, yet then ei­ther they mean it not otherwise, then as for commemorating and shewing forth a type or shadow, whose truth and body is to be sought for in something else, and not in the thing commemorated, or else by the Lord they mean not that [Page] Jesus of Nazareth, whom God hath made Lord and Christ, and by that they call the Lords death, they mean not that death of his Crosse, which he once suffered in that body of his flesh for our sins, and can suffer or die no more; And however that they have no Faith in him, or these things of him, is fully ma­nifested in their former questions, but seek to lift up something else in the Name and place of him, and then what profit can there be to them in treating with them about his Ordinances, while they are so wholly void of judgement in the great things of his Law, as before is shewed.

But for the help of others, that are not yet wholly turned aside after Satan, we answer to this Query,

That the taking, blessing, and breaking Bread, and the taking and blessing the cup, and so eating and drinking of them, as Christ hath appointed, to shew forth the Lords death, is an Ordinance to continue in the Church till the end of the World, or (which is all one) till his coming again, 1 Cor. 11. 23, 24, 25, 26 and 10. 16. Mat. 24 3. and 28. 20. And for further helpful­nesse in the understanding and use of it, we add

I. The thing to be commemorated, and shewed forth in that Ordinance, is not our Mortifications, sufferings, qualifications or works wrought in, or by us; but the Lords death.

1. The death of him that was the Lord from Heaven before he died even in the beginning with God the proper Lord, and heir of all the Kingdom and glory of God; for the Father sent forth his onely begotten Son, by his Grace to taste death for us, which shews our sinfulnesse, miserie and helplesnesse, and so the necessity of his death for us in respect of us, as also its Excellency for our help likewise.

2. Its the death of him that is the Lord, Gloriously made both Lord and Christ, in that body in which he died, and by means of his death for us, for he died once, and can die no more, but is now alive for evermore, and hath the keyes of Hell and Death, which shewes the preciousnesse of his death for us, seeing by means of it he ever liveth for us in the Power and Glory of God.

II. This is to be remembered, and so commemorated, and shewed forth in that Ordinance as that which is alwayes and for ever to be remembred, and that imports,

1. That the thing itself the Lords death, as to the actual accomplish­ment and sustaining of it, is already past and over, being finished in his own body; For remembrance is of things past (as is fore hinted.)

2. And that the precious virtue and efficacie of it abides for ever with the Father for us, in his appearing in his presence in that body Glorified as Lord and Christ by means thereof, and so remaines in and through him (that is the Lord) in the Name of the Father to us. Likewise,

3. That the vertue, efficacy and fruit of it is brought to us, in the Preach­in of his Crosse, and through the witnesses of it, and of the Grace in and through it, and to be met within the believing remembrance and acknowledg­ment of it, for with the heart man believeth unto Righteousnesse, and with the mouth confession is made to Salvation.

III. That therefore he hath appointed together with the Preaching of the [Page] Crosse, this outward Ordinance for the remembering and shewing forth the Lords death till he come; Which implyes, that there is even in believers, in their several ages, till that his coming again, natural dulnesse and pronenesse to forget it, and with that also a natural aptnesse to be either looking singly on their sins, or enemies to their discouragement and fainting in the way, or else on their personal Mortifications, Sufferings, Victories or Works, to a re­joycing, and lifting up themselves in something that is not the Lord, and therefore need of such mementoes.

And it shews the Gratious mind of God to us, that we should have the Lords death alwayes in remembrance, and in our acknowledgement (which onely will keep us from fainting in the way, and instruct and strengthen to relinquish all rejoycing in the flesh, for the Excellency of the knowledge of him,) and therefore he hath appointed such means to stir us up, by putting in remem­brance often.

IV. This Ordinance is by the Lord appointed to the Church, and so to be used in it, and in the societies of it, whereever two or three are gathered in his Name, in the beliefe of his sayings, and of the Grace commended through his death drawn into him, and knit together in the Unity of the Spirit, who yet also in their Preaching the Gospel to all as they have opportunity, are to in­struct and invite others that hear or listen to their word, to come into his house and rejoyce with his People, even in observance of his Ordinances with them, and this for one, Mat. 28. 19, 20. Rom. 15. 9, 10, 11. Prov. 9. 1. 5. Mat. 22. 1. 10.

V. That the way of this solemn publick and professed remembrance and ac­knowledgement of the Lords death, appointed to be used in his Church, or the thing to be done therein, is, that in their assemblies together, Believers do take the Bread, blesse it in his Name, break it, and with instruction about his sufferings, all of them take and eat of it in Remembrance of him; and in like manner the Wine, so drinking in Remembrance of him, for as oft as they eat this Bread, and drink this cup they do so, and therein professedly com­memorate, and shew forth the Lords death till he come, 1 Cor. 1. 23. 26. and 10. 6. For otherwise, he that knoweth and believingly mindeth the Lords Death, doth both and eating and drinking, and in all mercies and chas­tisements, and in all his approaches to God, remember the Lords death, as that by which all good was procured for him, and all things are sanctified to him, and therefore in all his demeanour is worthy to be acknowledged by him, though seducers would draw him from it, which with the former considerati­ons renders Ordinances for stirring up by putting in remembrance the more needfull.

VI. That this remembrance, and shewing forth the Lords death is to be till he come, is expresse in the Scripture their Query seems to alude to, even till that his second coming, of which we have spoken before, for his first appearing was actually past and finished, for of that, and the infinite and abiding virtue and Grace of it, this was appointed to be a commemoration; And for his Spiritual comings, he had already sent and powered forth the Holy Ghost, according to his promise after his ascension, and these had received of that Spi­rit, [Page] yea so as they were inriched in knowledge, utterance, Spiritual gifts, coming behind in none, even as the Testimony of Christ was confirmed in them, yet waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Cor. 1. 5. 7. That coming here spoken of 1 Cor. 11. 26. which is still to be waited for by all belie­vers, even all the time of this present World, and that in the use and observ­ance of his Ordinances each in their several times here, as Tit. 2. 12. 13. And that that his second coming, and the end of the World that now is, and so the beginning of the World to come (of which Abraham and all the faithful are Heires, Rom. 4. 13. &c.) Shall be together at the same time, is evident, in Act. 3. 19, 20, 21. and Heb. 2. 5, 8. with 2. Pet. 3. to the end.

Yea further also, it is cleare and expresse in the promise annexed to the Commandment given by our Saviour (after his Resurrection) to his Apostles, (and therein, in a secondary sence to them that after believe through their word, John 17. 18. 20.) That believers in and with the Preaching of the Gospel to the Nations, after baptising them in his name, are to teach them according to their capacity, to observe whatsoever Christ commanded his Dis­ciples (to observe, and do after his Resurrection, whereof this Ordinance is one) and this to the end of the World; so much we say is clear in the promise annexed to that Commission, Mat. 28. 20. And so I am with you alway (that is, not onely to strengthen them to keep this charge, but also to make them suc­cessfull and fruitful therein) in their Preaching this Gospel, and keeping his Ordinances, and Teaching others to observe them with them, even unto the end of the World.

Yea and they also kept and observed this charge unto the end of the World, not onely in that they kept it in their personal exercise throughout their Ge­neration, to the finishing their course, even untill their disease and depar­ture out of their mortal bodies, 2 Tim. 4. 7, 8. 2 Pet. 1. 13. But also in this that they have made known and given for the Preaching of Jesus Christ, ac­cording to the Revelation of the Mistery, and have therein delivered the tra­ditions, or Ordinances, and things delivered over from the Lord to them, even as they received them of him, unto all Nations or Generations of men in this World, not onely then in being, but then to come, for the obedience of Faith, and that all the Gentiles might hear, Rom. 5. 5. and 16. 25, 26. 2 Tim. 4. 17. with 1 Cor. 11. 2. 23. 27. and 14. 36, 37. And have also committed and deliver­ed the charge of this Ministry unto faithfull men, with instruction and charge to them to deliver and commit the same to other faithful men, that so it may be re­membered & kept after their decease, even unto the end of the World, 1 Tim. 1. 18. and 5. 21, 22. 2. Tim. 4. 1. 6. with Chap. 2. 2. 2 Pet. 1. 12. 15. with Chap. 2. 1. 2. and 3. 1. 3. And so Timothy is vehemently charged to keep this Com­mandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ (which in his times he shall shew, as Acts 3. 19, 20, 21.) 1 Tim 6. 14, 15. Likewise also even such as are called to the obtaining of the Glory of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming, are still exhorted in their several ages even untill that his coming, when all his Saints shall be gathered together unto him, to hold fast the Traditions which they have been taught by the Apostles Doctrine, 2 Thes. 2. 14, 15. with ver. 1. 2. Heb. 3. 1. 7. and 4. 11. 14. and 10. 19. [Page] 25. And so to do this in remembrance of him till he come, for till then they need such helps, for now in this time of their imperfect state, till they shall all come together to the full stature, here they see through a glasse, but when he comes they shall no more need such helps, but see face to face even as now they are seen and know as they are known, 1 Cor. 13. 12. 1 John 3. 2. Yea, until he come, those of them that live on the Earth are mortal, as well as still incumbred with a law of sin in the members warring against the Law of the mind, and so the body dead because of sin, and the rest of them de­parted, the body is wholly dead, and turns to dust (yet sleeping in the Lord) and so our body, or Cougregation in some sence vile, but at his com­ing, our bodies shall be raised and made immortal, and every particular, and so our whole body or Congregation together made like his Glorious Body, (who is our head) and appearing with him in Glory, Col. 2. 3, 4. 1 John 3. [...]. 1 Cor. 15. 48. 53. Rom. 8. 10, 11. 1 Thes. 4. 14. 16. Phil. 2. 20, 21. Untill he comes there is much Hypocrisie and hidden things of dishonesty covered over with good words, fair speeches and formes of Godlinesse, but when he comes, he will bring to light the hidden things of darknesse, and make manifest the counsels of the hearts, so as there is nothing covered that shall not then be revealed, Mat. 10. 26. 1 Cor. 4. 5. until he come; The Earth and Aire is corrupt, and the Creatures subject to Bondage, but when he comes he shall restore all things, Rom. 8. 19. 22. with Acts 3. 19. 21. Until he come his Saints on Earth are under reproach and persecution, 2 Tim. 3. 12. But at his com­ing he shall give them full restand deliverance, that they shall so suffer no more, 2 Thes. 1. 7. By all which it appeares, that the second coming of the Lord, and the end of this World contemporize, and so till both, the Ordinances are to be kept, as delivered by the Apostles.

20. Que. And whether doth the receiving Bread and Wine alone, without on out­ward passeover, really figure forth the death of Christ?

Answ. Having been large to the former Question, it shall suffice in answer to this, to give some briefe notice of their folly, Antichristianisme, and prophane scoffing at Christs appointments here more fully manifest, and so we say,

1. It is not the receiving of Bread and Wine alone, that is the supper of the Lord, or his Ordinance appointed for the Church, to shew forth his death in, nor is it that about which they query, however their light failed them in propounding their question. For,

1. That may be by them that do not then eat and drink them.

2. That may be done also in eating and drinking by such as these that do what they can privily to hide and deny the Lords death, the ends, vertue and pretiousnesse of it, as also by such as do it to gluttony and drunkenesse, and by o­thers more sober, who yet do it profanely, without belief or acknowledgement of their Redeemer, as by his death he hath procured these mercies for them, and through it extends them; In all which receivings of Bread and Wine, there is no commemoration of the Lords death, or shewing it forth by them: yea,

3. It may be by unfeigned believers for the preservation of their natural life, and cheering and strengthening the outward man, (as 1 Tim. 5. 23.) And this with belief and acknowledgement of the Redemption wrought, and obtain­ed by the blood of Christ, and of these Mercies as procured and Sanctified for [Page] their [...] thereby, for which they give him thanks; And as through Christ every Creature of God is good, and Mercy and Blessing in them for and unto men, the use of them lawful and good in it self, so are they also in a peculiar sence clean to them, 1 Tim. 4. 3, 4. Tit. 1. 14, 15. And in such use of them as aforesaid, they do remember, and in a sort may shew forth the Lords death (as before is hinted) yet neither is this that solemn and profest celebrating the memorial of, and shewing forth the Lords death which is appointed to be done in the use of the Lords Supper, or that his Ordinance to be observed in the Church to that purpose, nor would an outward passeover joyned with any such receivings as forementioned make it so.

But to eat the Lords Supper, and to do it worthily, or as is meet according to his appointment is, for a man upon hearing and in minding the instructions of the Gospel concerning the Lords Body, that was broken for us, examining and judging himself as therein discovered, and reproved so to eat of that Bread, and drink of that cup in remembrance and acknowledgement of the Lords death, and in the Assemblies of believers when met together in his Name to that purpose, and so celebrating that memorial according to his Ordinance and institution, (as is before shewed) see 1 Cor 11. 20. to the end, Chap. 10. 16, 17. compared with Acts 2. 42. and 20. 7. with the instructions about it, as mentioned by the Evangelists; See the instructions to it also from the conside­ration of Israel after the flesh, in their observance of the Ordinance of the passeover (unto which this of the Supper hath much answerablenesse) as in other of their typical Ordinanes, 1 Cor. 10 18. But,

2. They also shew their Antichristian denial of Christs being already come in the flesh, and having finished the works given him to do on the Earth, in that his first appearing to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself, in their in­timation, that the Lords death cannot be shewed forth in that Ordinance of the Supper, appointed by him to that purpose, without an outward passeover; For in the Ordinance of the passeover which was outward, there was blood shed, and sprinckled, and the Lamb roasted and eaten, and so there was not onely a commemoration of that passing over them by the destroying Angel, and their deliverance out of Egypt, but also a Type of Christ the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the World, who then was to come, and to be slain and sacrificed for us; And so his blood, his virtuous sufferings and death to be presented to God, in his ascending in that spotlesse body, to appear in the presence of God for us, that in his Name, it might be Spiritually sprinkled on us, in the Preaching of the Crosse, and so he fed upon by Faith as come in the flesh; But this Grace was not yet so brought forth and manifested, the works of the first appearing of Christ not finished, the offering of his body once for all not actually perfected, and while they were not so, the first Taberna­cle and Typical Ordinances of Divine service had their standing and usefulness as Types and shadowes of good things to come, in which was not a lively Image of them; But now he who is the Body and Truth of all, even the fountaine of Grace and Truth, being come in the flesh, and having been slain and offered up himself in Sacrifice for us, and by his blood even by means of his death, and with the virtue of it entered into Heaven it self, and there ap­pearing, [Page] in the presence of God for us, from thence to quicken, cleanse, and feed us with his own blood as aforesaid; All such like bloody and Typical Sacrifices and observances are taken away, that he may confirm the truth of all fulnesse and compleatnesse now found in him, and establish his appointments, who (and not Moses) is the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, yea there being herein a change of the Priesthood, there must also be of necessity a change of the Law, Heb. 7. and 9.

Therefore we are instructed to keep the feast, with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth, and to celebrate the memorial of the Lords death in such manner, and in such an Ordinance as aforesaid, without any outward passeo­ver, because Christ our passeover is not now slaying or sacrificing, or to be slain, &c. But is already sacrificed for us, 1 Cor. 5. 7. With the Scriptures fore­cited, nor could any such outward passeovers shew forth the Lords death, as past to be remembred; But the observance of it would be a denial of his death, as actually sustained, past and finished, and a signification of it as yet to come; therefore although it was very proper for our Saviour to observe and eat it with his Disciples at that time before he suffered, Luke 22. 15. Yet he left no such commandment with them, that they should any more observe it, ye he fully signifies to them, that they should no more observe it, or have any occasion for it, but that the very thing shadowed, and Typically held forth in it as to come, should now be accomplished and fulfilled in his personal body through sufferings, and should be given them to remember and feed upon, as so compleated in him, whence after the eating of the passeover with them, he took Bread and blessed, and break, and gave to them, &c. Likewise also, the cup after Supper, saying, &c.

And having so done and instructed them in the end and use of it; He then speaking of that distinctly, and not of the passeover, appointed them to do this in remembrance of him, and so also the Apostle gives us to understand, that it was of that and not the former Ordinance, but of that observed and instituted after Supper, of which he said do this, 1 Cor. 11. 23, 24. Yea his instituting that imediately after his eating the passeover with them, and then appointing them to do, that is as much as if he had said, Christ your passe­over is now presently to be slain and sacrificed for you, and therefore you shall have no more use or occasion for this observance, the thing typified and sha­dowed by it being come; But instead thereof do you this, and teach others, this observance in remembrance of what is done at this time for you, for now is Christ your Passeover sacrificed, my body given and broken, my Bloodshed, my Life powered out for you; Do ye this (not that any more but this) in remembrance of me.

3. But what means this expression in their Query, doth it really figure forth? As not liking the expressions of the Holy Ghost, that tell us, we there­in shew forth the Lords death, they call it a figuring forth his death. Now this we find in Scripture, that patterns, shaddows, and resemblances of good things to come, were said to be figures of the true and Heavenly things them­selves, resembled, typified, or shadowed by them; for the time present they were figures while standing of such use, which was until the first appearing of Christ to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself was finished; So the first man Adam was a figure of him to come, Rom. 5. 14. The Ark prepared by Noah, [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] and their being saved in it by water. A figure, answerable unto which Bap­tisme (that of the Spirit) now saveth, by the Resurrection of Christ, 1 Pet. 3. 20, 21. And so also, the first Tabernacle, and holy places made with hands, and Ordinances of Divine service appointed therein, while standing, were figures of the true and Heavenly things themselves, that were to come in and by the first appearing of Christ, Heb. 9. 1. 9. 11. 23, 24. and 10. 1 &c.

And so the Ordinance of the passeover, though that was a commemoration of something over and past, as to the actual accomplishment of it, yet also (as we noted before) it was a typical pattern, and so a figure of things to come, as in the blood-shed, and sprinkled, and Lamb roasted, and eaten. Yea even the thing commemorated in that Ordinance, as over and past, was but a pattern, and figure of Christ our Passeover, through whose being slain for us, Death is abolished, destruction kept off, the Grace of God bringing Salvation But now since Jesus Christ in whom the whole body of truth is, answering to all the former patterns and figures of the Heavenly things, the shadows of good things to come; Since that he is come in the flesh and hath offered up the perfect sacrifice of his own body once for all, and so hath opened the way into the holiest, being in that his spotlesse body entered into Heaven it self; We find nothing of his appointments or in his Ministry, that he hath left standing for us to be exercised in till his coming again that is called a figure or Figures, the body being come, figures and shadows are fled away, they are done away in Christ, in respect of such use of them as they were appointed to, under the Law.

And now all his Ordinances shew him forth, as already come in the flesh, and being made perfect through sufferings, and so direct alwayes to him whol­ly (in and by all things) in what he hath done, and is become as the foun­tain of all Grace and Truth, for instruction and strength in the way, and to wait for his coming again.

But these men putting no difference, but rendering the Supper of the Lord, as well as the passeover, a figure, & such as never stood, or was of any use without it, do at least imply, that they make no more account of the Ordinances of Christ in his Ministration now, then they do of the Types and Figures that were under the Law, that are now done away in Christ, in whom their truth and end is found; If not also that the thing commemorated and shewed forth in that Ordinance of the Supper, as already past, (viz.) The Lords death once suffered in that one body, is now of no more, or other kind of Excel­lency or use for us, and to us, than the things commemorated in the out­ward passeover, or not otherwise then as a pattern and figure of some Heaven­ly or Spiritual thing yet to come, or that is acted, or to be acted in men in their several ages and times.

Yea that such are their corrupt immaginations appeares, in their former questions, in which they signifie, that that Blood, Sufferings, and Death of Christ that is over and past, as to the actual accomplishment and sustaining thereof, & was so finished in that body, is not the Bread of Life, or the Drink in­deed, and the purger of the Conscience; But something else figured by that which is now in a present and sensible being nigh to men, and in them, yea all [Page] along they shew, as may bee seen in what we have noted, that the witnesses and declarations of the Power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ both of his first, and second personal appearing, as delivered by the Apostles, are of no more esteem with them, than cunningly devised fables, that must have some Mystery or meaning in which the truth must be found, other then what is held forth in the plain import of the words, or at least, that they account them as Allegories of some other and further things, which they call Christ, and the things of Christ after the Spirit, while they render the knowledge of him as Preached by the Apostles, and witnessed in the Ordinances as delivered by them, fleshly and carnal, and so to be let go for the other. Surely Antichrist doth not onely figure forth, but reveale himself in them by these Queries, as may be seen in the light.

21. Query. And how must the life of Christ be shown forth? And when? If people must receive Bread and Wine as a continuing Ordinance in this life, alwayes to shew forth the death of Christ?

Answ. In the right shewing forth the Lords death, the life of Christ is also acknowledged, and shew'n forth; For therein we shew not forth a dead Christ or Death simply, but the Lords death, that is (as is shewed before) the death of him who by means of that his death, being raised from the dead in the Glory of the Father, and made both Lord and Christ, in that body in which he died, and was buried, is alive for evermore; And so that death by which Peace was made, and Redemption, and life obtained in and by him for us, That with him it might be given to us, and in receiving him be received by us, as he is received, that is now by Faith; And in the first fruits of those Spiri­tuall blessings we are now blest within him, and the hope of the fulnesse, with the Redemption of the body at his second coming; and so it is that death, the excellency and preciousnesse of which is shewed in the testification of the glory God hath given him in his Resurrection and exaltation as the fruit of it, that our faith and hope might be in God: And so that of which and the pre­ciousnesse thereof, he now liveth to be an Apostle to us, as likewise by vertue of which he appeares in the presence of God, an High Priest [...] for us, and therefore also is able to save to the utmost them that come to God by him. And so in the right shewing forth the Lords death, all this is acknowledged, and shewed forth, as that in which his death is commended as therefore infi­nitely worthy to be remembred, and the Grace and Glory of God therein dis­played; And so in being Spiritually baptised into his death, into the under­standing and acknowledgement of it, as declared in the Gospel, Therein a man is also risen with him, through faith of the operation of God, and comes to prove the power of his Resurrection in such fellowship of his suffer­ings, quickening to new and lively hope and affections by the Resurrection of Christ from the dead, Col. 2. 1 [...]. Phil. 3. 10. 1▪ Pet. 1. 1. 3. &c. And is made a powerful Saviour of Christ to others, either of life unto Life, or of death unto Death; For the Preaching or shewing forth the Crosse of Christ, (in which the whole Gospel of Christ, the Wisdom of God, the Power of God is preached) that is to them that perish foolishnesse, but to us that are saved, it is the Power of God; Whence the Apostled said God forbid that I [Page] should glory in any thing save in the Crosse of Christ, by whom the World is crucified to me, and I to the World, yea he determined not to know any thing in his Preaching among believers, but Jesus Christ and him crucified, 1 Cor. 1. 18. 23, 24. [...]. & 2 with Gal 6. 14. And he had then the mind of Christ, 1 Cor. 2. 16. and was therein rejoycing in, and shewing forth the Life of Christ, Gal. 2. 19, 20. holding forth, not a Ministration of death, but of Spirit and Life, 2 Cor. 3. 1 John 1.

But this must needs be an offence and stumbling block to them, who deny the abiding virtue and effecatious preciousnesse, for others of that death once finished in that his own body, and believe not his being raised, and continu­ing for ever in the same body in which he died; But set up an Idol in the name and place of him that is often dying, rising, and offering it self, and in di­vers bodies; For they cannot shew forth the death and life of their Imma­ginary Christ in one and the same demonstration, because when he rises or is risen in them, its another, and not the same body, that died which rises, or is risen.

22. Query. What is your ground for sprinkling the Children of them you count Believers? Have you ever a command from God, or evident example for it, if you have shew it?

Answ. This Question is laid as a snare for such as differ from us in the Or­dinance of Baptising with water in the Name of Christ, as to the persons that may be baptized, and the manner of baptising; And yet agree with us in the acknowledgement of the Lords body, and of the infinite Grace and abi­ding Vertue of his first appearing therein, and the hope of his second, and of the Resurrection of the dead, and Eternal Judgment at his appearing to his King­dom, that so by seeming to take their part against us in this about baptisme, they may catch them in their net.

For why else do they not as well question our grounds for the continuance of this Ordinance of Baptising with water in his Name, as they have done that of the Lords Supper; seeing it is notoriously known, they make no more account of the one, then of the other.

We shall therefore here say the lesse to this Hypocritical question. But if any desire to understand the grounds of our practice in that, they may see them at large, shewed by the Scriptures in Treatises made publick, the one by Joh. Horn, called, Considerations of Infant Baptism. The other by Tho. Moor senior, called, A brief discourse about Baptism. And if any that own the great things of the Doctrine of Christ but different from us in such lighter things, will pro­pound their distractions, or reasons against our practice, in answer to what is made publick, or they have ours in manuscript (which yet they have not done) or otherwise, we shall be ready to answer them, though we think it not expe­dient here to speak to those things in which they differ from us, who yet own the same Lord Jesus with us, and waite for his Glorious appearance from Hea­ven: And though differing from us in the manner or outward form of an Ordinance, &c. Yet do it to the same Lord whom we will neither judge, nor dispise, nor reckon them amongst or joyn them with such Enemies of the [Page] Crosse of Christ as prvily deny the Lord that bought them, and dispise both his sayings and Ordinances.

2. Why demand they a command from God, or evident example for what we do in this, seeing they contemn both in the former, and in scorn reject the Ordinance it self as unprofitable?

We might answer this demand, as our Saviour answers a like Question, Mat. 21. 23, 24, 25. When they demanded of our Saviour, by what Autho­rity he did those things; He answered and said unto them, I also will aske you one thing, which if ye tell me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things. The Baptism of John, whence was it, from Heaven, or of men? So might we here say, when they tell us, whether baptising with water (either by sprinkling, or dipping) in the Name of Jesus of Nazareth, be an Ordinance from Heaven, to be still observed by believers, and by them to be administred on any, then we will likewise tell them the ground of our practice in this.

But the Reader may be satisfied, that they make void the commandments of Christ in this as well as in the former, by their traditions both by their principles and practice; For first, in their principles, they deny that Jesus to be the very Christ, in whom the fulnesse of the Godhead dwells bodily, and so in whom the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is, and then why should any be baptized into his Name.

And Secondly, in their practice, they wholly lay aside and reject that ob­servance as well as the other, as unprofitable and vain.

Therefore we reject their question; And yet for further help to the Read­er, add this word or two about Baptism, in which we hope few of our foremen­tioned dissenting brethren will much differ from us, waving in this place those things in which they differ, for such reasons as is fore expressed.

1. That the command to disciple the Nations, baptising them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, was to be observed by the Apostles, and by them that believe through their word, unto the end of the World; See what is said in answer to their [...]9. Question, from the consideration of the promise annexed to the Commission, Mat. 28. 20. And lo I am with you alway (namely in the observance of this command) unto the end of the World.

2. That that baptising in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is, in baptising in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, even of that Jesus of Nazareth, whom God hath raised from the dead, and made both Lord and Christ, campare, Mat. 28. 19. with Acts 2. 22. 38. and 8. 16. and 10. 48. For in him dwelleth all the fulnesse of the Godhead bodily, and in his Name as so manifested, is the great Name of God come forth and declared.

3. That in that baptising, repentance, and remission of sins is Preached, and witnessed as in his name for them, and through it unto them, as appears by comparing, Mat. 28. 19. with Luke 24. 47, 48. and Acts 13. verse. 37, 38, 46, 47.

Like as John was sent baptising with water, that Christ should be made ma­nifest to Israel, as the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the World, [Page] John 1. 29. 31. And not to make them, or something in them manifest to themselves, or to Christ.

So the Apostles were sent baptising the Nations of the Gentiles also, that they might therein witnesse as true to small and great, even every Creature of mankind, that Christ had now suffered, and was risen from the dead, and become in the man Gods Light to the Gentiles, and his Salvation to the ends of the Earth, & so that there is Repentance, and Remission of sins in him for them, and through his Name to them, compare with the forementioned Scriptures, Acts 26. 22, 23. Mark. 16. 15. Whence the Apostle Peter exhorting to repent, and be baptized every one of them, gives this reason, for the promise is to you, and to your children, &c. He saith not the promise is in you, nor had they yet by Faith received it; But it was in Christ raised from the dead, and through him by the Gospel to them, as Rom. 3. 21, 22. with Acts 13. 32, 33. 37, 38. 46, 47. and Eph 3. 6. [...]. Which was the thing they were willing to witnesse, and set their seal too, in baptising them in that name, Acts 2. 38, 39.

4. That baptising with water in that name, is included in that baptising given in commission; And (though as a lesser or lighter thing comparativly, yet) to go with the Preaching of the Gospel, as an outward seal, or witnesse of the Truth of God therein to every Creature of mankind, small and great. This appears by our Saviours use of the word baptising, in that command­ment given to his servants, a word which when used to expresse a work in the Ministration of the Servants, alwayes includes that with water in his Name (though sometimes it takes in more, and a more weighty thing in their service also.) And likewise by the Apostles understanding it, as included in their Commission, which it is evident they did, (see the Book of the Acts,) though but as a lighter matter, to be used in subserviencie to the more weighty; see for both, [...] Cor. 1. 14. 17.

23. Query. Whether do you own such Preachers as take Tythes, or Preach for hire, or for gifts, and rewards, yea or nay?

Answ. Here are three Questions in one, and of divers natures, which is a falacious way of querying; To the first we say, we own Melchizedeck, who received Tythes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promise, Heb. 7. 2. 6. We own also the good Priests under the Law that were of the sons of Levi, and had a commandment to take Tythes of the People according to the Law (Heb. 7. 5.) such of them whose lips preserved knowledge; We like­wise own such Preachers now, as having the Doctrine of Christ with fitnesse to Preach it, do hold fast that faithfull word, and Preach not themselves, but Jesus (even that Jesus of Nazareth whom God hath raised from the dead) the Lord, and themselves servants for Jesus sake; Such as Preach repentance and remission of sins in his Name, who is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole World, the Fountain of Grace and Truth, that of his fulnesse men might receive, and so do wait for, and in shewing those things of him, that is the ground of it, instruct others to look for that blessed hope, and the glori­ous appearance of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; And to flee from the wrath to come in the Resurrection of the dead, and Eternal Judgement by that man by whom he hath ordained to judge the World in [Page] Righteousnesse, whereof he hath given assurance unto all men in that he hath raised him from the dead; And so with that Doctrine of Christ, and in the Preaching of it do Administer their instructions, and reproofs to such as are Ignorant and out of the way, and for conviction of the gain-sayers, and their exhortations to all, with consolations, & admonitions, to believers, to the edifying and teaching them, that denying ungodlinesse and worldly lusts, they should live Soberly, Righteously, and Godly in this present World, &c. Such Preachers we own, whether they take Tythes or no. And further we say, the Labourer is worthy of his hire, Luke 10. 7. And thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the Ox that treadeth out the Corn, 1 Cor. 9. 9. &c. They may, if they see it con­venient, according to the instructions and liberty given them by him, take such things as God by his providence orders to them, and sets before them; Be it the Tenth, or what part it will that is appointed them by the Fathers of the Countrey, of that which is at their dispose, or that is otherwise produ­ced to them by the Gospel; But all that take Tythes we own not, no more then we do all that refuse them, we make not their taking or leaving them our rule for knowing or owning Preachers, but leave that gross way of judge­ing to such, as being Reprobate concerning the Faith, have no better rule to walk by.

To the other two parts of this Question, we say,

1. We distinguish between taking Hire, Gifts, or Rewards, and Preaching for them, and so being hirelings.

2. Such as Preach for Hire, or for Gifts, and rewards, and so for filthy Lucre, in their so doing we own not, but are instructed to flee that vile lust, and to warn others of it, 1 Pet. 5. 2. Yet it is not our parts, to judge the hearts of men, yea though therebe some failings, (but rejoyce if Christ be Preached) and not to account any to be hirelings, until it appear by their fleeing when the Wolfe comes to devour the sheep of their faith, and hope of the Gospel, and so of their fallowship in the Word and Ordinances thereof; he that then neglecteth and fleeth from the sheep as not caring for them, but leaving them to the Thief and Wolfe, he flyeth because he is an hireling, and by his flight may be judged so to be, John 10. 10, 11, 13.

3. Yet some that do or may receive hire and gifts we own, as being no hirelings, but moved and carried forth by the love of Christ, constraining them to Preach the Gospel, and perswade men to be reconciled to God, as the Apo­stle, 2 Cor. 5. 14▪ 15. 18, 19. and 6. 1. [...]. who yet receive hire or took wages, 2 Cor. 11. 8. and gifts, Phil. 4. 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. as Elisha did, 2 Kings 4▪ 42. and Jeremiah, Chap. [...]0. 5. But,

4. Such as bring another Doctrine then that which the Apostles have Preached, and delivered, we own not, no, though they Preach it freely, as it may seem the false Apostles boasted they did, 2 Cor. 11, 12, 13. Yea the Wolf comes without hireing, desiring, or sending for to the sheep, and barks against hirelings too; seeking to scare them away, yet is no better friend to the sheep, but a far more dangerous and hurtful Enemy, for he cometh not but to scatter, catch, rob, and destroy, John 10. Yea further, if such persons com­ing to such a contrary end, and with another message should not onely scorn [Page] [...], but also give rewards to hire others to come in to them; However Ig­norant and Worldly minded men may admire such, yet in the account of God and those taught of him, it agravates their sin and shame, Ezek. 16. 31. 33, 34.

5. Its given us as a Character of false Apostles, and deceitful workers, trans­forming themselves into the Apostles of Christ, to boast of, and commend themselves to others, by their Preaching freely and great labours and suffer­ings, and to seek occasions where they can, right or wrong, (for report say they, and we will report it, Jer. 20. 10.) against the true Ministers of Christ to reproach, and vilifie them by their taking wages or gifts, see 2 Cor. 11. 8. 13. &c.

24. Query. What is the Soul of man which the Word of God is to save, and what is the difference between the Soul and the Spirit, seeing the Word of God divides them asunder?

Answ. This hath two Questions distinct, the first is what is the Soul of man which the Word of God is to save? To which we say,

Its the Soul of man that God hath made, Isa. 57. 16. And that by sin was defiled, corrupted and lost, for the Son of man came to save that which was lost; But happily they think to intimate something in this to strengthen their denial of the Resurrection and Redemption of the dead body, as to say▪ that because the Soul onely is mentioned as to be saved by the Word of God, Jam. 1. 21. and 5. 20. 1 Pet. 1. 9. Therefore the dead body is not to be saved, or Redeemed from death after the natural and bodily death.

We therefore further say.

1. That the Soul of man is understood in Scripture in a twofold sence.

1 Sometimes for the Spirit, Soul, or inward man distinct from the body or outward man, which at death departs out of the body, and returns to God that gave it, to be appointed to its proper place, and still retains a sensible being, either in prison or at liberty, even till the Resurrection of the body when they shall be for ever reunited, Gen. 35. 18. Luke 12. 20. Eccles. 12. 7. 3. John 2. And this is that in which the saving work of Christ begins, and espe­cially hath its efficacy now, while yet the body is mortal and decaying, though it also works in and through the mortal body, to the devoting it to Christ, and strengthening it to service, and suffering, and preserving blamelesse.

2. By the Soul or Souls of men, is frequently meant the whole person, Soul, and body, Gen. 12. 5. and 14. 21. and 46. 18. 22. 26, 27. Deut. 10. 22. Acts 7. 14. 1 Pet 3 20. Revel. 18. 13. with Ezek. 27. 13. And so in the Crea­tion of man it is said, the Lord God formed man of the dust of the Earth, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of Life, and man became a living Soul; And these are the Souls, even the whole persons of men, for every of whom Jesus Christ by the Grace of God tasted death, and gave himself a ran­some, that through him they might be saved, yea when the Soul and Body are spoken of distinctly, they are both mentioned, as bought with one price, that God might be Glorified in both, 1 Cor. 6. 20. And so that both even the whole man might be Sanctified and preserved in Christ, and so blamlesse even to the coming of the Lord, 1 Thes. 5. 23. And as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive, and appear before the Judgement, seat of Christ, to receive [Page] the things done in the body, as before is shewed at large.

2. By the Word (whose Name is also called the Word of God) is sometimes meant, that Word that was in the beginning with God, which Word is God, one God with the Father, & Eternal Spirit (though distinct in respect of manner of being in the Godhead) the same that in the fulnesse of time was made flesh, and in that body of his flesh, is now raised from the dead, and Glorified with the Fathers own self, and made both Lord and Christ, John 1. 1. 2. 14. 1 John 1. 1. 2. and 5. 7. And sometimes by the Word of God, which also was cal­led the Word of Christ, of the Kingdom of Grace, of Salvation, of Life, is meant that Declaration or Revelation of his Name and Grace in Christ, as witnessed and spoken forth by the one mouth of his Holy Apostles and Prophets since the World began, who have spoken to us in the Name of the Lord, Psal. 147. 19. Mark 7 13. Acts 3. 21. and 10. 36. Tit. 1. 3. Col. 3. 16. John 5. 24 38. and 8. 31. Mat. 13. 19. Acts 20. 32. Phil. 2. 16. 2 Cor. 3. And it is the Word in this sence, the Gospel of Christ or Preaching of his Crosse that is the Arm or Power of God to save, even to open the eyes of the blind, and turn them from darknesse to light, and from the Power of Satan to God, and to the further saving the believers here in this Life, 1 Cor. 1. 18. Rom. 1. 16, 17. This is made able through him that is declared in it, and Spiritually present with it, to save the Soul, to build up and give the inheri­tance in the first fruits of the Spirit, to the making the Spirit alive for the Righteousnesse sake, while yet the body is dead because of sin, and to pre­serve the whole man blamelesse to the coming of Christ; For this is that which he the Son of man sowes in the heart, and ingrafts there for the saving the Soul, Jam. 3. 21. Mat. 13 19. Acts. 20 32. And so his faithful Ser­vants (that have it in their hearts) Ministering in this Word, are said instru­mentally to convert and save the Soul, Jam. 5. 20. Acts 26. 18. with 1 Cor. 3. 5. 11. and 4. 15. 2 Cor. 3. 3 And so our further answer is,

1. The saving or Salvation of the Soul includes the Salvation of the whole man, 1 Pet. 1. 9. Jam. 5. 20. with Psal. 33. 19, 20. and 34. 22. and 72. 13, 14. For that which is not received now in some first fruits of enjoyment, yet is assured in and with Christ, and received by Faith, and in the hope that is by him, as Rom. 8. 10, 11. 23. Col. 1. 27. with Heb. 6 19, 20. Besides some of the forementioned Scriptures speak of the Redemption, and Salvation to be revealed in the last time, (in which the body shall by him be redeemed from death, and all deceit and violence, and their former sufferings be remem­bred, as Rom. 8 18. 23.) And do evidently include that under the redeeming of their Soul, as Psal. 72. 13, 14.

2. Though no Scripture saith, the Soul onely, as distinguished from the body, is to be saved by Christ; But contrariwise, that through him both may be saved. Yet in this saving work effected by his word, or through the Preaching of his Crosse, the Soul is onely mentioned in divers Scriptures, as the subject of it, for these Reasons.

1. It is the Spirit or Soul distinct that is made alive, and so chiefly the sub­ject of the Saving, or Redeeming here effected in this day, while yet the body distinct (though devoted and yeilded up to his dispose, and so in some [Page] [...] yet remaineth mortal, and so dead by reason of sin, and so even those that have the first fruits of the Spirit, yet wait for the Adoption, that is the Redemption of the body, and though the inward man be renewed day by day, yet the outward man decayes and perisheth, Rom 8. 10. 23. 2 Cor. 4 16.

2. The saving which is now effected in them, is wrought mediately through that word Preached in and by outward means, wayes and instruments; where­as that compleat saving in which the dead body shall be raised, redeemed, and fashioned in to the likenesse of his glorious body, though it shall be by Christ, and by his mighty Voice, which now breathes, and is put forth in and with the Gospel, yet by an immediate and wonderful putting forth of it, without the use of outward means, and instruments, according to the working where­by he is able even to subdue all things unto himself, Phil. 3. 21. Rom. 8. 11.

The next part of their Query is, what is the difference between the Soul and the Spi­rit, seeing the Word of God divides them asunder.

To that we answer, 1. The text saith not that the Word of God makes a difference between, or devides them asunder one from another; But that it pierceth, even to the dividing asunder both Soul and Spirit, and so of the Joints and Marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart; That is, it pierceth through all, and so as much through Spirit as Soul, to a discerning (and manifesting too at his pleasure) the counsels of the heart, even after the similitude of a Sword that pierceth through a man, which de­vides not one part from another, but makes way for it self. Yet,

2. There is distinction between Soul and Spirit in the Scriptures (though sometimes both are comprehended under either of the termes▪) and as di­stinguished, the Spirit of a man (his mind or understanding, with the incli­nation or bent of his Soul) is the Candle of the Lord, which when lighted by him (by his inspiration, giving understanding and fixing it) searcheth (or the Lord by it searcheth) all the inward parts of the belly.

And the Soul is that belly, or inward parts (in Solomons sence) searched by it, Prov. 20. 27. Even all the faculties of the Soul and its exercises, with the thoughts and intents of the heart, &c. as Heb. 4. 12, 13. Answerable to which distinct sence of Soul and Spirit is that profession, Luke 1. 46, 47. and calling upon both, Psal. 103. 1. And the Apostles prayer that their whole Spirit and Soul and Body might be preserved blamelesse, &c. 1 Thes 5 23. Both which Soul and Spirit are oft included in one of the tearms, as 1 Cor. 6. 20. and 3 John 2.

And so the whole Soul (or Spirit and Soul) may here be renewed, deliver­ed and preserved (through the Grace of God in Christ, bringing Salvation) from under the guilt and bondage of sin, while yet the body is dead, and by putting on that new man, the body also may be delivered and preserved from under the dominion of sin, that henceforth it should not serve or fulfill it, though sin be still in the members warring against that new Law of the mind, Rom. 6. 12, 13, 14. 19. and 7. 15. to the end▪ and 8. 1. 13. and 12. 1. 2. Gal 5. 16, 17, 18. Ephes. 4. 20. 24. &c. Col. 3. 1. 5. 10.

25. Question. Whether men must be justified by the same Righteousnesse of Christ in them, which Sanctifies them, yea or nay?

Answ. The true Prophets and Apostles, never use the phrase of Christs Righteousnesse in men, when speaking of that by which men are Sanctified or Justified, for though the sanctifying and justifying effecacies of it be in them, as also in Heaven with the Father for them, yet that which hath those effecacies, and so by which they are sanctified, and justified, is the Righteousnesse wrought and perfect in himself for them in whom they are compleat; For he who knew not sin, was made to be sin for us, that he might be made the Righte­ousnesse of God in him, for all have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God, being justified freely by his Grace, through the Redemption (he saith not that in us, but) that is in Jesus Christ, whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation, &c. Yea, with his stripes it is that men are healed, either in such a sence as in which it may be affirmed in all men, or in such a sence as in which its onely true of believers, in whom the healing effecacie is; Yet that by and with which they are healed, is his stripes, his Righteousnesse perfected in him through sufferings, 1 Cor. 5. 25. Rom. 3. 23, 24. &c. Isa. 53. 5. 1 Pet. 2. 24. And so they are made accepted in him, Ephes. 1. 6. Whence the Apostle de­sired to be found in him, not having on his own Righteousnesse, but that which is through the Faith of Christ, the Righteousnesse, but that which is through the Faith of Christ, the Righteousnesse which is of God by Faith, Phil. 3. 9. For of God believers are in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us Wisdom, Righteousnesse, Sanctification, and Redemption, that he that rejoyceth might rejoyce in the Lord, 1 Cor. 1. 30, 31. with Phil 3. 3. &c. But these men being so corrupt and reprobate concerning the Faith of his Per­son, and personal sufferings, must needs reject and deride imputed Righte­ousnesse (viz. mens being the Righteousnesse of God in him, in an answerable sence, as he was made sin for us.)

Their Question therefore as an unlearned Question, the phrase of which the Scripture owns not, we reject; and yet for the help of others further add,

1. That the Righteousnesse of Christ, by and with which he justifies and sanctifies, is one and the same; And it is that Righteousnesse which he hath wrought for us in his own body, in his whole abasement, and laying down his Life that he might take it again for us, and so that Righteousnesse of Christ (and he himself as the Lord our Righteousnesse, and Captain of our Salvati­on) was made perfect through sufferings, and in his Resurrection and offering up himself in that body, through the offering of which body of Jesus Christ once for all we are sanctified; for by one offering, he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified, Rom. 5. and 6. 1 Pet. 2. 24. Rom. 3. 23, 24. 27. Heb. 2. 10, 11. 14. 15. and 5. 9. & 9▪ 12. 14. and 10. 5. 14. with Psal. 40. 6. 9. and 71. 15, 16.

2. This Righteousnesse of his in what he hath already done, and by means thereof is become for us, is brought nigh and made known to us, in the evi­dence and demonstration of his Spirit by his Righteousnesse and Faithful­nesse, in what he is now doing in the Name of the Father for us, in his exe­cuting the Office of an Apostle, or Messenger of the peace he hath made, and is become for us, and the Office of an High Priest, making intercession, and [Page] appearing in the presence of God for us, that Spirit may be sent forth in his Name to us, making known his Words, and by or through the knowledge of his Name, Justifying and Sanctifying, and so making free from the domini­on of sin, that henceforth they should not serve it, 1 Tim. 2. 5, 6. Heb. 3. 1. Isa. 53. 11. with 1 Cor. 6. 11. and Acts 10. 43. John 8. 31, 32. Tit 3. 4, 5, 6.

3. The way of receiving this Righteousnesse, and so for experimenting the Justifying and Sanctifying effecacies of it, is by Faith in Christ, even in his Blood, or Death in belief of the Testimony God hath given of him, and so in believing in him, as the Scriptures hath said, John 7. 38, 39. Rom. 3. 21, 2 [...]. 27. and 4, 5. 22. 25. and 5. 1, 2. Acts 26. 18. Now Faith is the evidence of things not seen, or sensibly possessed, (as before is shewed, see these things more fully in the answers to their Eleventh and Twelfth Queries.) And as for those renewing, sanctifying & justifying effecacies of this Grace in Christ, which it hath in the believer, and so in some sence he sensibly enjoyes, as they are not the Righteousnesse of Christ by which he is justified and sanctified, But the fruits and effecacies of that; so neither are they the object or ground, and foundation of his Faith from whence it is begotten, living, and working, but the fruit and end of his Faith Jesus Christ himself, as declared in the Gospel, is the Object, and also the Ground and Foundation of that Faith that is so fruitful, he dwelling in the heart by Faith, (and not otherwise) works effectu­ally to the fulfilling all the good pleasure of his goodnesse, and the work of Faith with Power, Ephes. 3. 17. &c. 2 Thes. 1. 11. All other sanctifications are no better then those, Isa. 65. 3, 4, 5. and 66. 17.

26. Question. What is that Light with which Christ lighteth every man that com­eth into the World, which Thomas Moor said is both natural and Spiritual?

Answ. They vary; Thomas Moors saying (as divers times they did their own Question about the light, at that meeting) his saying was in answer to their Question as thus stated (after other formes of stating it before, which when plainly and undeniably answered, they see would not serve their turn, they then turned it thus.) What is the Light which Christ giveth, or with which he lightneth every man that cometh into the World? Is it Natural or Spi­ritual; His answer to this was, that he is the Author and giver of both Natu­rall and Spiritual light, even of all that is truly called light and good to men, Light being opposed in Scripture as well to sorrow, affliction, bondage and misery of the outward man, as to ignorance and darknesse of the mind, and so any help or refreshing in, or deliverance out of trouble, yea the mercies of the Natural life, tending to the comfortable being of it, these are called light, Hest. 8. 11. 16, 17. Isa. 45. 7. and 50. 10, 11. And the contrary evils called darknesse, as in the two last cited Scriptures, so in Isa. 8. 22. And in every mercy of that nature mens condition is bettered from what it must have been, if Jesus Christ had not come into the World, the Life in him doth and alwayes did produce the light of men, even that life that was in him, by vertue and by means of his coming into the World, and being delivered to death for our offences, and raised again for our Justification, which was of virtue, force and efficacie with the Father, before the actual accomplishment of it, even from the beginning of mans need when it was undertaken, and he fore-ordained, [Page] and the purpose and Grace given us in the witnesses and oracles of it, and so by him and by means of his coming into the World, his appearing once in the end of the World, to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself, The Earth and all the inhabitants thereof that by sin were dissolved, and must necessari­ly have been plunged into extream misery, disorder, confusion, and dark­nesse, are upheld in some comfortable frame and order; by him all things consist, his mercies to man-ward are overall his works. And that all this is included in his lighting men is plain, in vers. 10. Where, by way of explanation of the former, he saith; He was in the World, and the World was made by him, that is, it was alwayes upheld, and comfortably preserved, and so made, af­ter by sin entering, it was or had been marred; For of that making in a se­cond sence, and as the fruit of Redemption in him for men, it is evident he speakes (like that Deut. 3 [...]. [...].) Seeing of its being first created by him, he had spoken in the beginning, and now also speaks of his continual being in the World, Vertually and Spiritually from the beginning, even as the new Maker and upholder. And so saith, the World was made by him, though it knew him not, so then of all Mercies of that nature and pertaining to the Life of the World, He (as now delivered for our offences, and raised for our Justification) is the Author and giver, for He gave his flesh for the Life of the World, and upon whom doth not his Light arise, Job. 25. 3. Psal. 75. 3. and 36. 5, 6. with Psal. 145. 8, 9. Col. 1. 16, 17. John 6. 33. 51. with Chap. 1. 4. 9, 10. As likewise he is the Fountain and Giver of all Spiritual and Su­pernatural light, even of the Supernatural light and Power of his Spirit, shin­ning to, and upon the spirits men, discovering and making known the Grace of God in and through the Redeemer, and opening mens understandings to receive it, and therewith moving to repentance, and in this, he is a Testimo­ny to men in due time, and that in and through the forementioned outward mercies, 1 Tim. 2 6. Acts 26. 16. 18. 1 Pet. 3. 19. Rom. 2. 4. with Chap. 1. 19. 28. And the substance of this was asserted and thus explained by us at that meeting at Lin forementioned, as also is shewed in our first brief discovery of the People called Quakers, see Pages 18. and 19. But they proceed thus.

Name one Light that every man is lighted with, that is both Natural and Spiritual, or else let your silence be an acknowledgement of your Ignorance touching the Light, and that you have confuted your selves; for Thomas Moor, would not acknowledge that eve­man hath a Spiritual Light in him, &c.

To all which we Answer,

This demand is as foolish, as imperious, nor could our silence to it be an acknowledgement of our Ignorance (but rather shew our refusing to submit to their imperiousnesse, who though they may Lord it over others, shall not be so owned by us,) much lesse can it be a confutation to our selves; For our answer, that he giveth both, or lighteth men with both Natural and Spiritu­all Light, and so is the Author, and Giver of all the Various streames of Light, whether Natural, or Spiritual, gives no ground at all for such an inference, that any one stream of the Light he giveth, is both Natural and Spiritual, though divers of them may truly be said to be so indifferent, or divers respects; As that which is Natural, as to its matter and way of giving, even those things that more directly pertain to the comfortable being, perservation [Page] and refreshing of the Natural life of man, may be said to be Spiritual in their Original, and Author; They come from God through Christ by the effe­cacie of his Spirit (though in an ordinary and natural way of working for the most part) for every good and perfect gift cometh down from above, from the Father of Light, &c. Jam. 1. 17. Psal. 104. 27. 30. and 145. 13. 16. But the light in these men is darknesse, and hath robbed them of all right under­standing of Christ who is the Wisdom of God. And the fool saith in his heart, there is no God; Yea, Father, even those Natural streams of Light, are also to men in due time Spiritual in their end and effecacy, for they all come to lead to him, and so to the enjoyment of that Eternal life in him, and to that purpose have the presence and concurance of the supernatural Light and Po­wer of his Spirit in and with them unto men, witnessing his goodnesse lead­ing to Repentance, Rom 2. 4. Acts 14. 17. Rom. 1. 19, 20. &c. But our an­swer forementioned, as we said before, gives no ground at all for any such infer­ence, that any one stream of Light that every one is lighted with is both Na­tural and Spiritual, nor did we at all confute ourselves in what T. M. refused to acknowledge, nor had we, though he had denied that every one that comes into the World hath spiritual Light in him, according to his sence of spiritual Light, which he then gave (viz.) The light of Gods Spirit in their spirits, giving the knowledge of his Grace and Truth that is in and through Christ, and opening the eyes of the mind to perceive and know it, yea though he had also denied, that every man that comes into the World (or as soon as he comes into the World, which must be, if it may be affirmed of every man that comes into the World) is enlightned with such light.

Yea, this we say, (as was then urged) the Text saith not, that he inlight­neth, but lighteth every one that cometh into the World, or giveth light to them; And though that include his giving the light of the knowledge of the Truth, by his Spirit to mens spirits in due time, yet it takes in more as a­foresaid, and as is also shewed from the Tenth verse. And so we assert (as was then also asserted) as plainly expressed in other Scriptures, that Jesus Christ is in the Name of the Father, a Witnesse and Testimony of Gods goodnesse, that is in and through him unto men in due time, 1 Tim. [...]. 6. Isa. 55. 4. &c. even by his Spirit unto their spirits (as 1 Pet. 3. 19. with Gen. 6. 3. Zech. 7. 12.) so manifesting in them that which may be known, and is held forth in God in the means vouchsated, Rom. 1. 19, 20. 28. And while we so asert, we likewise assert withal, as plainly shewed in the same Scriptures of Truth, That when he doth thus witnesse or manifest the knowledge of his Goodnesse and Truth unto the minds or spirits of men, then alwayes he requires something of them according to what he gives, namely, that they should know him, receive his sayings, or witnesses of his goodnesse, and thence love him, and so glorifie him in the day of their visitation, according to the means used and manifesta­tions of his goodnesse therein vouchsafed, that henceforth they should live to him that died for them, and rose again; See the forecited Scriptures, with Eccle. 9. 12. 1 Pet. 2. 2. 2 Cor. 5. 14, 5.

But of Children in their infancy no such thing is required expresly, because they have not known, &c. Deut. 1. [...], 2. &c. Nor are any blamed for not knowing to do good, till they are wise to do evil; And there is a time when [Page] they know not to chuse the good and refuse the evil, and no such knowledge being given them, nothing of that nature is required of them, though the de­clarations of Gods Grace in Christ are affirmed true concerning them, and his free promises in Christ to them, and so to be witnessed by his servants

But so soon as God requires any hearing, knowing, or acknowledgement of his Grace of any, he prevents them with his Grace, bringing Salvation to them, even by his Spirit to their spirits as before, sowing his Words in their hearts, as Mat. 13. 19.

And further we say, that when the light of the knowledge of God comes to them it shines in darknesse, it finds them in darknesse, yea dead in sins and trespasses, John 1. 5. and 5. 25. Ephes. 2. 1. 4. Else no need of shining light into them from without them at least, not of such light as in which is both dis­covery of the objects, or things to be known, as also giving of understanding, or opening the eyes of the minde to perceive what is discovered, as Psal. 119. 130. with Psal. 19. 7. Acts 26. 18.

Again we say, that if when light comes, men love darknesse, and like not to retain God in their knowledge, they are still darknesse, and have not the knowledge of God; So the Ephesians were sometimes darknesse, but now saith the Apostle ye are light, (yet he saith not in themselves, but) in the Lord, who is the Fountain and Original of their light, Ephes. 5. 8. 1 Cor. 15. 34.

But if any persist in their chusing darknesse when light comes, or on hear­ing reject, or after receiving the knowledge of the Truth, put it away from them, till his holy Spirit have done shining with them, and he take it away from them; Then they are left to hardnesse and blindnesse, and have no true or morning light in them, but a mind void of Judgement, Rom. 1. 28. with Psal. 8. 12. 2 Thes. 2. 11. with 1 Tim. 4. 1, 2. Jude. 12.

And so we read of many that under one or other of these considerations, that is either not having heartily received, or not retaining, or having reject­ed to the utmost, are truly said to have no morning light or knowledge of Christ the morning Star in them, (as Isa. 8. 20.) no truth in them; Yea, that is expresly affirmed of such as say they have no sin, as 1 John 1. 8. 10.

But if so (say they) what saith he then to this, the Gospel is Preached in every Creature under Heaven.

Answ. To that he saith,

1. Where read they those words, that the Gospel is Preached in every Creature under Heaven? The Apostles were commissioned and instructed to Preach the Gospel to every Creature, namely of all the Nations or Generati­ons of mankind, as appeares by comparing the three Evangelists Relation of the Commission, Mat 28. 19. Mark 16. 15. Luke 24. 47, 48. And accordingly the Apostle Paul saith, having obtained help of God, he did continue witnes­sing both to small and great (not of any thing in every of them, but) saying none other things then what Moses and the Prophets did say should come to passe, and so witnessed them as things not actually accomplished in their day, (as 1 Pet. [...] [...], 12.) And then not in any person to whom they Preached, how that Christ should suffer, and should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light to the People and to the Gentiles, these things the Apostles Preached, as now manifested by the appearing of Christ, who had [Page] now suffered and risen, and ascended, and received the promise of the Holy Ghost, in that body prepared for him once in the end of the World, and therein abolished Death, and thereby brought Life and Immortality to light through the Gospel, 2 Tim. 1. 10. with Acts 2. 22. 36. And so in that, Col. 1. 23. The words are (as in our reading) the Gospel, which they the Collosi­ans had heard, and of which he was made a Minister, was, or had been Preach­ed to every Creature, and that reading agrees with vers. 6. where he saith, it was now come unto them as in all the World, and did bring forth fruit, it was now come unto them in the Preaching of it, it appeares it was not in them before, for then it could not have been said to have come unto them; the Grace of God brings Salvation unto men, it finds it not in them before; And though in its being brought to them, by the Preachings and witnesses of it in the Light and Power of his Spirit accompanying them, it came into ma­ny of them, such as were capable of hearing, and so was manifested in them, as Rom. 19. Yet still the thing manifested was not any thing essentially in them, but that which may be known in God, and of his Grace and Truth in and through Christs Repentance, and Remission of sins in the Name of that Jesus of Nazareth, and not in any other Name, Luke 24. 47. with Acts 4. 10, 11, 12. That Christ had now once in the end of the World suffered in the flesh for our sins, and that he was risen from the dead in that body in which he bore our sins on the Tree, and is now become therein Gods light to the Gentiles, and his Salvation to the ends of the Earth, Acts 26. 22, 23. with Chap. 2. 22. 36. and 13. 23. 38. 4 [...]. and 17. 3. This was the thing brought to them in the witnesses of it, which was also evidenced by the Spirit to their spirits, and so manifested in them; Yea further, he onely that believeth on the Son of God, is said to have this witnesse in himself, (and neither is he said to have the thing witnessed in himself, otherwise then by Faith receiving the Testimony God hath given of Christ, which witnesse he hath in him.) But such as like not to retain God in their knowledge, but on hearing reject, are not yet said to have it, though it be still manifested by his Spirit to their spirits, and so in them working and striving for reception and entertainment, as is foreshewed.

Yea, neither was it so manifested in or to the minds or spirits of all to whom they witnessed it, to an opening of their eyes, and moving to Repentance; for they witnessed to small and great, to every Creature of mankind, and so unto such as yet were not capable of hearing, or attending to the things spo­ken by them, and so of whom therefore no such thing was required, yet they wit­nessed it unto such, in as much as they so Preached it, as all their hearers might understand the latitude of the Grace of it that it reached to, and included their Children as well as themselves, and was tidings of great joy to all Peo­ple, Acts 2. 39. and 16. 31, 32, 33. Ephes. 3. 6. 9. The truth of which they was also before instructed to witnesse, as in this their following Ministrations, even in receiving the little Children, or Infants that were brought to them in his Name, as the price of his Blood, and subjects of the gracious Kingdom of God brought to us by him, Mark 9. 37. and 10. 13, 14. with Luke 18. 15, 16. Yet had not they the Light of the knowledge of God in their hearts, or capa­city to understand or perceive the shinings forth of it in the Face of Christ, so that [Page] Light, and capacity to such understanding in every of them to whom their Preaching came or witnesse reached, nor in the real being of the thing wit­nessed (otherwise then by Faith) in any. But further he faith,

2. That as by the Gospels being Preached in Creatures, may be meant, its being witnessed in, by and through them to others, so as by Gods making use of them to man-ward, as witnesses for him, and of him, and his things to men, in such a sence he grants and asserts, that the Gospel is Preached by God through Christ in every Creature under Heaven without exception, even in all his works of Creation and Providence, as Rom. 1. 20. For so the Gos­pel of the Grace of God, which is his Glory to man-ward, is declared and shewed forth to men, that it may be seen and understood by them, in and by the things that are made and preserved, for them and to them by and through Christ, as the Heavens, the Firmament, the Sun, Moon and Stars, Psal. 19. 1. 6. and Psal. 8. Yea, all his works, in and over all which his Mercy and Truth to man-ward is witnessed, Psal. 145. 9, 10. 15. and Psal. 136. and 148. His preserving man, and other Creatures for his use, and so his giving Rain from Heaven, and fruitful seasons, &c His patience and bounty to sinners, yea his forbearance, and long suffering to rebellious sinners, Psal. 36. 5, 6. and 68. 18, 19, 20. Acts 14. 16, 17. Mat. 5. 45. with Luke 6. 35. Rom. 2. 4. 2 Pet. 3. 9. 15. Though of men, his Saints do onely truly blesse him with the Mouth or Tongue, and from the Heart, where the understanding and knowledge of his Goodnesse is received and precious; Yet also all his works do, and more Gloriously shall praise him, he never left himself without wit­nesse in them, to make known to the Sons of men his mighty Acts, and the Glorious Majesty of his Kingdom; Yea so wonderful is he in working, he knows how to make the wrath of man, which of it self works not the Righte­ousnesse of God, yet turn to his Praise; But what is this to their purpose? What makes this for proving such Spiritual Light (as aforesaid) in every man more then in every beast, or plant? Do these men suppose that every thing that may be a witnesse for God unto men, hath the understanding of the wit­nesse they bear, or of the thing witnessed, or Light and capacity to such un­derstanding in them? Surely when God opened the mouth of an Asse, she spake more truly and to purpose then these men; Yet who will say, she had in her the understanding of the warning and reproof God gave to Balaam therein, or light and capacity thereto, Numb. 22. 28. 30. Or that the Pillar of the Stones, Gen. 31. 45. 48. 52. had in them the understanding or light of the Covenant of which they were a witnesse, or that all the things that are made, as the Sun shinning, the Rain falling, &c. have the light or un­derstanding in them, of the things witnessed in them to man-ward, and that may be clearly seen and understood by them; Doubtlesse they are brutish that would so infer.

But it is no strange thing for men that have no Faith in Christ, but are void of Judgement concerning that, to be also unreasonable, or absurd, 2 Thes. 3. 2. Nor for such as are seeking after, and professing to be wise in themselves, to become most foolish, Rom. 1. 22, 23. 1 Cor. 1. 22, 23.

Thus have we answered in simplicity and plainnesse, and not with hidden [Page] things of dishonesty, but by a plain manifestation of the Truth in the words of Truth, have declared our mind and meaning in our words, That others when they read may understand our knowledge in the mysteries of Christ, Accord­ing to our measure, as 2 Cor. 1. 2, 13. & 2. 17. & 4. 1, 2. Ephs. 3. 4. And have been the larger for the helpfulnesse of such as will read and consider our An­swers, Desiring them to search the Scriptures whether these things be so; And so far as any in reading, and by searching and comparing the Scriptures, may be helped to understand the things that we have written to be contained in, and confirmed by the words of Truth, let them so receive them as the Word of God and not of man. And if in any thing they find we speak not according to that word, let them refuse it, and shew us in love by evidence of Scripture, our mistake, and we shall thankfully accept it, (for we dare not make our selves of the number, or compare our selves with some that commend themselves, &c. See 2 Cor. 10. 12, 13. for not he that commendeth himself, but whom the Lord commendeth is approved, verse 18.) But let none be either over-hasty to believe every word before he find it contained and confirmed in the words of our Lord Jesus, and in the Doctrine which is according to godlinesse, nor yet to speak evil of the things he knows not, That is, if he cannot yet see it to be according to that word already delivered in the Law and Testimony, and yet neither can be thereby satisfied, that it is not according to it, or that the lip of knowledge is not in it, let him suspend his judgement, and still wait in the believing mindfulnesse of the great things in the Doctrine of Christ for further under­standing, for so its meet to be said unto God, what I see not teach thou me. Nor have we in our answers to these queries, or in any of our dealings with these men, walked according to any other Rule, or done by them otherwise then we would that men should do by us; That is, we have not declared and protested against any of their corrupt principles as evil and Antichristian, fur­ther then we have been fully assured by the word of God, that they are such as may be seen by our shewing them thereby to be such; for so such instructions as have not the lip of knowledge in them, but do cause to erre from the words of knowledge, they may be by the light of the Lord known and discerned to be such, and as such to be avoyded; though the depths of Satan in them; what their lip is, and whitherto it tends, their wayes being moveable, and their Depths in the bottomlesse pit, we cannot know them, Pro. 5. 6. And therefore it is not our work to search or enquire into them, Rev. 2. 24. 25. But in the holding fast that which we have heard from the beginning of the word of the beginning of Christ, So soon as ever we perceive and know by the light thereof, that the lip of knowledge is not in any Doctrine or spirit that comes to us, That it lifts not up the Son of man, by taking of his things, and shewing them; but tends to render him undesirable in what he hath done, is doing and will do, and to withdraw from the words of knowledge, we are then presently to depart from such, to cease to hear them, and let them be to us as an accursed thing, not fur­ther to be considered, or pondered by us, and so to warn others of them, for with good words and fair speeches, even such may easily deceive the hearts of the simple; that in confidence of their own strength, and out of an unstable mind and itching ear will be often tempting God, and trying and pondering [Page] their moveable paths, after they have perceived that the lip of knowledge is not in them, but the Preaching of the personal sufferings of Christ, foolish­nesse to them; We have therefore left this for an instruction and warning to others, that the Truth of the Gospel may remain with believers, and that such as are Ignorant and out of the way may be recovered.

And further we desire of the Reader, if ever he see any reply to this of ours, he would distinctly observe, if they pervert not, or alter our sayings, by taking them in pieces, and changing expressions to marr the sence, if also they give not a go-by to the matters of the greatest weight and importance, and onely lie at the catch to get some by-matters or words to strive & snarle about, which can tend to no profit, but to the subverting the Reader from the things chiefly to be minded; And in observance of this caution, we doubt not but the Reader will be satisfied even from themselves, concerning their Antichristi­an spirit, without our adding any more by way of return to theirs; Which though we will not bind our selves from, yet we do not resolve to do, though they should give us occasion by such sorry shifts and pretended answers as hi­therto they have returned.

As for their slanders and revilings that follow, we weigh them not, but com­mit our selves to him that judgeth Righteously, who will at that his second coming (which they scoff at) when He the Son of man shall appear in his Glo­ry, make their folly manifest to all men, and bring to light the hidden things of darknesse; Then it shall fully appear who have walked in craftinesse, Pride, Hypocrisie, and hidden things of dishonesty, in the mean time we are during his good pleasure, in his Name and strength, his witnesses against it all.

  • THOMAS MOOR. Senior.
  • THOMAS MOOR. Junior.

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