A Brief ACCOUNT Of the MOST Material Passages Between those called QUAKERS And BAPTISTS At the Barbican-Meeting, London, the 9th of the 8th Moneth, 1674.

Published for Information, by W. Mead, J. Osgood, W. Shewen, E. Man, S. Newton, J. Claypool, W. Welch.

Citizens there present, from the best Collection they could make by Writing and Memory.

Also a Copy of the Charges against Thomas Hicks:

With a Letter from a sober Baptist-Prea­cher to Jeremy Ives upon the Account of that Meeting.

The Names of the Persons chiefly concerned being On the one side,

  • George Whitehead,
  • George Keith,
  • William Penn,
  • Stephen Crisp.

On the other

  • William Kiffin,
  • Thomas Hicks,
  • Thomas Plant,
  • Jeremiah Ives.
  • Robert Forguson a Presb.

A Catalogue of some of those Things charg'd against T. H. either Wholely Omitted or [...]airly Examined in your [...]te Relation of the Barbican Meeting; pointing you to the Particulars in the Books.

General Charges.

1. A Dialogue between a Christian and a Quaker [yet made by T. H.] viz. wherein, saith he, is faithfully represented some of the chief and most Concerning O­pinions of the Quakers; Together with their Method and Manner of Reasoning in the Defence thereof; published for Common Benefit, Dial. 1. Title Page.

2. His Abuse of our Sufferings. His Dis­course runs thus, viz.

Q.

Why will you not be free, and plain­ly tell me, what it is that doth influence and [Page 32] prevail with you to do and suffer as you do?

A.

What dost thou think it should be? Dial. 1. p.75.

Q.

May not the Satisfaction of your WILLS and LUSTS, the promoting your Carnal Interest, be your chief Motive and Inducement?

A.

VVe deny the Flesh, and the Lusts: This is thy own dark Imagination.

Q.

May not you live in, and fulfil the Lusts of the Flesh, whilst you deny it in words? I am serious with you, since your Opinion denyes any Eternal Advantage to be reaped by Persons after Death, in deny­ing the Resurrection of this Body; Must you not then have respect Only to somthing to be enjoyed here, as your Encourage­ment?

A.

We are above the World and all its En­couragement.

Q.

This is no other to me then a Vai [...] Boast, because I am assured no sort of Peo [...]ple whatever, do more eagerly grasp af [...]ter the World then you do, insomuch tha [...] (I believe) your Carnal Advantages is o [...] great thing in your [...]ye in your sedulou [...] Endeavours to augment your Numbers; [...] I mistake you, inform me what it is that do [...] animate you?

A.
[Page 33]

Thou seest we suffer in our worldly concerns for our Principles; How then can this be our Encouragement?

Q.

Though you may sustain some out­ward Losses; yet, whether ye have not a way to augment your outward Gains by Loosing?

3. Are you then as perfectly happy as ever you expect to be?

A.

We witness Perfection, 1 Dial. p. 72, 73.

Q.

What Proof is this to another Man?

A.

VVe say we witness it: Is not this Proof sufficient?

Q.

But what if I believe otherwise?

A.

VVe shall not spare to stigmatize and condemn that Person that questions the Truth of our Sayings.

Q

Will this convince me or any other of your Perfection?

A.

Though it doth not, yet thereby we shall render you so odious to our Friends, that they will believe nothing that is spoken by you a­gainst us.

Q.

Then may I not conclude, that the Reason why you so freely rail against, & re­proach your Opposers is only to secure your Credit with your own Proselytes?

A.

I cannot deny but that there may be some­thing of that in it.

Q.
[Page 34]

VVill you be so liberal of your Re­vilings, whether your Adversaries give Oc­casion or no?

A.

It concerns us to render them as ridicu­lous as we can, and to make our Friends be­lieve they do nothing but contradict them­selves; And if this fail, we will insinuate by way of Question something that may be re­proachful to them, &c.

Q.

But doth not this signifie a very disho­nest and malicious Mind in you?

A.

VVe care not what you think, provided our Friends think not so.

Q.

One of your Friends meeting with a Person that had writ against you, tells him, That if he did write any more against them, that they would print any thing against him that any Person would report, be it what it would. Is such a Practice a Proof of your Perfection?

A.

Now thou slanderest us.

Q.

Do you believe the Scriptures to be the true Sayings of God?

A.

Yea, so far as they agree to the Light in me, Dial. 1. p. 66. Q. Ap. Ans. p. 29.

5. Q. VVhen we make use of the Scrip­tures, 'tis only to quiet and stop their Cla­mours that plead for it as their Rule, Dial. [...] pag. 24, 25.

[Page 35] 6. That they (viz. the Quakers) ren­der the holy-Scriptures to be of no more Authority then the Fables of Esop; and e­steem them inferiour to their own Pam­phlets, 2 Dial. Epist. p. 5. Q. Ap. Ans. p. 29

7. That the Blood of Christ in their E­steem is worse then the Blood of a common Thief, Dial. 1. p. 9. & 38. Contin. p. 4. Q. Ap. Ans. p. 31.

8. That the Quakers have discovered themselves to be no other but the Spawn of that wicked Brood the Ranters, having licked up their Vomit, Dial. 3. p. 80.

9. That the Quakers owning Jesus Christ is indeed no other then a meer mystical Ro­mance, 1 Dial. p. 10. Contin. p. 9.

10. That the Tendency of all the Qua­kers Reasoning about Instituted Religion is to debauch Mankind, Dial. 3. p. 65

11. That the Quakers appoint their Mi­nisters afore-hand to speak in such a Place at such a Time: That their Meetings are only and principally to decoy, trapan and inveigle others, Contin. p. 66. Q. Ap. Ans. p. 27.

12. That our Principles improved, are destructive to all humane Society, Contin, p. 59, 62, 69.

13. His kind of treating us with reviling Language, viz. Cheats and Impostors, Ly­ars [Page 36] Malignant Errors, Hypocrisie, Deceit, Equivocations; The VVay they arrived to that Degree of Perfection, was by Qua­king, Foaming at the Mouth, with dread­ful Roarings and Howlings; and this, he sayes, the Devil influenced us into. A­gain, Delusions, impertinent Cantings, Non-sense, Blasphemy, the Devil's Slaves, Paganism, Satan's Snares, Pernicious and Perilous Errors; they are inspired and influ­enced by that grand Impostor the Devil; Blasphemous and Ridiculous Canting; En­thusiastical; they Decoy and Trapan; your Idle, Non-sensical and Blasphemous Prating; Inspired by Satan; You are as Vile Impo­stors as ever were. Thus much of us and our VVay in general, besides his Knaves, Coxcomb, Impudent and Audacious Fel­lows, that he has called our Friends on Re­ligious Conferences: Mad-men, Absolute­ly Infatuated, Distracted, Monsters in Re­ligion, Dissemblers, Knave, Impudent Fel­low, little Respect to Magistrates, VVil­ful Lying, the most implacable Enemies to the Christian-Religion, as vile Impostors as ever were, &c. to which is added Dial. 1. p. 76. Romish Emissaries: See Reas. against Rail. p. 170, 171. Append. ibid. p. 7, 8. C [...]u [...]t. Chr. p. 120. Q. Ap. Ans. p. 24, 25.

[Page 37] 14. He proclaims to the VVorld, that our Religion is a meer Cheat, calculated only to the service of the Devil, and their own Lusts, Dial. 1. pag. 62.

15. If a Merchant sell you his Goods, he must stay for his Money till you (saith he) be moved to pay it; till which time you are under no Obligation in point of Duty. You say, 'tis necessary to have things reveal'd to you, with respect to your Con­versation in the VVorld, which are not to be found in the Scriptures, no not by Con­sequence: How then may your Creditors be assured it will be revealed to you, to pay what you ow them? Scripture and Reason would, and do teach you herein, but these you must be dead unto; who knows then what may, or may not be revealed to you? 'Tis not unknown that a Revelation hath been pretended to excuse the Payment of a just Debt. And why may not that which hath been (even amongst you) be again? But is it reasonable that Men should be baffled out of their just Rights by such unjust and wicked Pretences? Continuat. pag. 69, 70.

Charges against Particulars.

1. That Jesus Christ came to seek and [Page 38] save a lost God; and that the Seed of God in Man only, and nothing else is taught, &c. Contin. p. 49 and 66.

2. That Nich. Lucas, a real Quaker, was moved to declare his mind thus, (to one I know very well) Thou mayst burn thy Bible, and when that is done thou mayst serve God as well without it; And if thou hast a mind to have a Scripture, thou mayst write as good a one thy self, Cont. p. 5. & 60, 71. Dial. 3. p. 3. & 86.

3. Chr. I have formerly detected you of several pernicious Opinions concerning the Scriptures, the Light within, the Person of Christ, and the Resurrection of the Dead, &c. which I presume by this time you have considered; VVhat say, you thereunto?

Quak. I say, the Plagues and Judgments of God will follow thee, G. W. Contin. p. 1. Dial. 3. p. 85. Q. Ap. Ans. p. 30.

4. His false Reflections upon Stephen Crisp, Dial. 1. p. 44, 45.

5. His several Abuses of W. Pen, cited in his Book, call'd, Reas. against Rail. Cont. p. 52. Dial. 3. p. 1, 2, 4, 10, 13, 41, 68, 69, 70, 72, 73, 74, 80, & Epist.

The Contradictions charg'd upon T. Hicks, Counterf. Christ. detect. p. 3. 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54.

[Page 39] Further we have several Exceptions a­gainst your Manner of Appointment, and Management of the Meeting at Barbican.

VVe also Except against your late Book, called, The Quakers Appeal Answered, as not making good the Title thereof; And because many Things are overlook'd, for which you say the Appeal was made, and several Things unfairly cited.

Which are but some of those many things we have further to object against T. Hicks and his Abettors, when the [...]e are particular­ly and fully considered & determined in pub­lick. And we having thus far condescend­ed, we expect a publick Meeting without delay fairly to examine and discourse Mat­ters; which when done, we are willing to come to the Doctrinal Points (which are chiefly in Controversie) concerned in T. H's three Dialogues; our very Aim and End be­ing for Truth and Righteousness, and that things may be mannaged in Good Order.

  • George Whitehead,
  • George Keith,
  • William Penn,
  • Stephen Crisp,
Brother IVES,

I Was sorry to see Thee appear in the Pulpit (I will not say Cock-pit) as an Assistant to one that would prove the Quaker No Christian We saw him foyl'd in his first Attempt, to prove his Way of Writing; For, as Mr. Penn truly said, There is a vast Diffe­rence betwixt a Dialogue composed for Information, and one for Dispu­tation; In the first I only write my own Judgment, in the other an Ad­versary's. But moreover, I wonder thou wouldst put that Ensnaring Que­stion to them (which was best answe­red with Silence) viz. Whether the Humanity was a part of Christ: For what if they had turn'd another upon thee to the same Purpose, thus, Whether that which was crucified, and satisfied for Sin, was a Part of Christ, or whole Christ? Would not the same or more Absur­dities [Page 41] have fallen upon thee, if thou hadst directly answered? Brother, let us leave dividing of Christ; and put not such Queries, which bring Incon­veniencies upon both Parties. A­gain, Thy Way to prove them will as easily prove us all No Christians; for I suppose thou wast running to this, That he that denies a Part of Christ de­nyes the Whole; but the Quakers deny a part, Ergo. Then why may not another reason thus? He that loves not Christ, denys him; he that keeps not his Commands, loves him not, and so forward to this, That Non­conformity to every Command of Christ is a Denying of Christ, then must the Presbyter. and Independents be No Christians for denying Baptism; and some Baptized Churches must be Antichristian for denying Laying on of Hands on all, and others for not keeping Saturday-Sabbath; But God forbid that we should thus proceed to Heat henize one another for Diversities [Page 42] of Apprehensions concerning the Na­ture, Offices or Ordinances of Christ. T H. has Dialogued so long, till he has fill'd the Quakers Meetings in these Parts: And for ought I see, the more We Strive, the more They Thrive. Its strange we cannot ob­serve the Counsel of our own Bible, to let them alone; for if they be not [...] God, they shall not stand. Let us con­tend against all Faith that leads to [...] an Unholy Life, which doubtless the Apostle intended, when he bids us Contend for Gospel-Faith, and not Doubtful Disputation.

One Thing more I noted, which was not fair, viz to set Women at the Door of the Disputation, to sell a Pamphlet to exasperate the People against the Quakers; verely, he that did it, acted too much like a Poch [...]r, which if he can, will wound the Hare before he courses her: I was so trou­bled at it, that I desired the Woman to remove, or forbear shewing till the [Page 43] Dispute was past; but she was so Zea­ [...]ous in her Business, that I fear, she was hired: Whatever the Design was I know not; but truly the Substance of the Pamphlet was very Weak; for by the very same Argument he may prove all our Pedigree from the Pope, as well as the Quakers; but the Sheet it self smelt of the Spirit of Persecu­tion, which is the very worst Part of Popery: But no more at present, on­ly this, If thou hear of a Disputation again, do thy Endeavour to have it out of the City; three or four Miles Distance had freed you from that Rab­ble, which I perceive will alwayes disturb and make utterly unprofitable all Meetings of that Nature. From

Thy Loving Friend and Brother W. L.

Postscript.

FOrasmuch as the Baptists, &c. h [...] publickly (though falsly) accused a [...] charged us with Denying the Christ of G [...] the Worth and Authority of the holy Scr [...] ­tures, and other things of the like Natur [...] we do (for the stopping of the Mouth [...] Slander, and informing the Simple) decl [...] in the Presence of God, That we do high Honour and truly Own the Lord Jes [...] Christ, as he is born witness of in the ho [...] Scriptures, both as he is God, and as he too [...] upon him Flesh, and fulfilled the Law in th [...] very Body prepared for him above Sixte [...] Hundred Years ago, in which he resist [...] and overcame the Divel, and became a compleat Sacrifice for Mankind in general.

And further, In Simplicity and Plainne [...] of Heart we own him in all his Offices reco [...] ­ded in the holy Scriptures. And concernin [...] the Scriptures, we Esteem them and Ow [...] them as the Words of God, spoken by the Spirit of God, moving in Holy Men, Pro­phets, Christ, his Apostles and Ministers [Page 45] and that they are profitable for Doctrine Reproof, Correction, &c. yea, we truly value them above all the Books extant in the VVorld, and do hold it our Duty to live that Holy Life they call for and exhort to; and they were written for our learning, that we through Patience and Comfort of the Scrip­tures might have Hope: And we wish with all our Hearts, That whole Christendom, who Honour them with their Lips, might come to live that Holy Life which they exhort to; For it is not the bare Pro­fession of God, Christ and Scriptures, and other Heavenly Things in VVords, that availes any thing; but a living a Godly Christ-like Life, is the Sum of Christian Religion.

W. S.
THE END.

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