THE QUAKERS Proved Deceivers, And such as people ought not to listen to, or follow, but to account Accursed, IN THE Management of a Charge formerly given out against them to that effect, by J. Horne, Preacher of the Gospel at South-Lin in Norfolke.

Which Charge was managed and made good by him against George Whitehead, in the Chancel of South-Lin, before some Hundreds of People, Jan. 13. 1659. to the great baffling of the said George Whitehead and his Party, through the merciful and gracious Hand of the Lord appearing for his Truth and Ser­vants therein, as is known to, and witnessed by the generality of the Audi­ence of Understanding.

Published as a Warning to all to beware of the said people called QUAKERS, and their erroneous Principles herein also in part discovered.

1 SAM. 2.2.

Talk no more so exceeding proudly, let not Arrogancy proceed out of your mouths, for the Lord is a God of Knowledge, by him Actions are weighed.

LUK. 14.11.

For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased, but he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

LONDON, Printed for John Allen at the Rising-Sunne in Pauls Church-Yard. Anno Dom, 1660.

The Occasion of the ensuing Discourse and Dispute with George VVhitehead.

I. H. Meeting with George Fox accidentally, Octob. 4. and falling into disecurse with him, amongst other things, told him he would prove him and the Quakers deceivers, and such as people ought not to hear or follow, but to account accursed, G. F. asked him if he would give it under his hand, I. H. said, Yes, G. F. hidding him appoint time and place, he did so, appointing the Thursday next following, or that present day in the Afternoon, being Tuesday, G. F. refused it, saying he was to go that day out of Town, but asked I. H if he would do it the next time they came to Town, which might be about a Fourt­night after, in case they gave him notice of their coming two or three dayes before, I. H. (having before engaged to a Friend in Lincolnshire to go a journey to see him, and appointed him to meet him 12, mile off his home Octob. 14.) told G. F. he could not nor would engage that, both because he might be not well then, and because if well, he might be out of Town, having engaged a journey, about such time as he spoke of. But at any time when he should be in Town, and well, when it might stand with his conveniencie, before a competent number of people, where he might be heard, he should be ready to do it. To which purpose also the said I. H. posted up some Papers the same day, to warn people of them, charging them to the same effect as above, and adding that he should be ready to make it good, when there to law­fully called, the 12th of the said moneth notice was given to I. H. that George Fox was to come to Town the next day, and expected that I. H. should make good his charge, I. H. replied that he could not do so, nor was engaged to it, being fore ingaged, a journey in which he had appointed his Friend to meet him, Octob. 14. and that that journey he had signified before to G. F. and thereupon positively had de­nied to engage himself to make good his said charge at their next coming; and that he had publikely given notice of his being to go that journey in the Congregation, the Lords day before, as was notoriously known. They threatned then to post him up if he stayed not, as going away from it: Neverthelesse, I. H. to per­form his fore-ingagement to his friend, went his journey, and they (though he reminded G. F. in a Letter he left for him, of what had past between them, as above-related) coming to Town, viz. G. F. and G. W. not only aspersed the said I. H. as refusing to stand to his charge against them, but also incivilly and unreasonably in his absence, posted him as failing in his promise, and going away on purpose, their impudency, in which I. H. remonstrated to the people, in Papers posted up in Answer to theirs at his re­turn. [About Jan. 7. G. W. came to Lin, and about the 10. or 11. day provoked I. H by a Letter full of high vaunting Language, like Goliah, or one of the sons of Anak, boasting of the nature he was in, and what they could and should do] to make good his charge against them, which after some Overtures of time and place, [...] at length agreed upon to be done in the Chancel of South-Lin, on Jan. 13.

The Charge Proved and Managed against him was thus.

BEing come together into the Chancel of South-Lin, and places being by either of us, and our friends taken, after some Appeal to the Lord, and desire of his Presence for making out his truth, and giving testimony to it, and stopping the mouth of iniquity; The said I. H. entred upon his charge or proof of it to this Purpose.

People, I am come hither to make good a Charge formerly laid by me against the people call'd Quakers, viz. to prove them to be Deceivers, and such as people ought not to hear, or to follow, but to account them accursed. I hope you will judge it but reasonable, that I have liberty without interruption, to produce what I have to say by way of proof of it; which I shall desire to observe this Method in.

1. I shall shew that there are some people that we ought not to follow, but account ac­cursed, and who, or what manner of people they be. And then

2. I shall in the Strength and Name of the Lord, (for I come not in my own strength or name to do it) prove that the people called Quakers, (and amongst them this George White­head) are such people.

For the first, I shall desire you to minde, Gal. 1.8, 9. For if we, or an Angel from Heaven preach another Gospel (or preach unto you other) then that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. To which we may joyne, 1 Cor 16.22. If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha, Cursed, the Lord cometh, or at the coming of the Lord. And in 2 John 10. If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, (confesse not, or magnifie not Christ come in the flesh,) receive him not to house, neither bid him God speed, &c. But I shall ob­serve some things from the first mentioned Scripture, viz. Gal. 1.8. If we or an Angel from Heaven. Where note, that we are not to receive any man upon his pretence of being an Apostle, or one sent of God. Such as pretend to be so sent, and to have seen or spoken with Christ, or to be immediately sent of God, may be of those that we are to account accursed; for the Apostle says, If we, and again, If I Paul, preach another doctrine, &c. (yea, and so in Rev. 2.2. we read of some that sayd they were Apostles, and were not, but were found lyars.) Againe, it is not enough that men come as Angells from Heaven to induce us to receive them, it is no Angell like appearance, either in their excellent speech, speaking like Angells, vanting that they are in the Spirit and Power of God, nor any Angell like carriage in appearing hu­mility, holynesse, sinlesnesse, &c. that should presently make us conclude such, and such men are of God, even such also may be Persons to be accounted accursed by us. For even Satan himself is transformed into an Angell of light, and no marvaile if his Messengers, or Emissa­ries transforme themselves into Ministers of righteousnesse, as the Apostle sayes. 2 Cor. 11.13, 14. these things then be not the certain characters to know men to be listened to, and re­ceived by, but according to their conformity to the Apostles doctrine. If any pretending ne­ver such immediate authority from God, or have never such an Angell like speech, and carri­age, yet agree not to, or speak not the language, and Doctrine delivered by the Apostles for the obedience of faith to, and among all Nations, we are not to listen to, or follow him, but account him accursed. such be the Persons to be so accounted by us. I should nextly then inquire into the Doctrine or Gospel preached by the Apostles, and so bring these men to the trial of that Touchstone, but I shall not enlarge upon that, because I would be brief, and give him time to answer for himself. Only I shall pitch upon two Heads of Trials. 1. Touching the manner of the coming of the true Prophets and Apostles, in the way of their doctrine And 2. The matter delivered by them therein.

For the manner of their coming shall note,

1. That the true Apostles and Prophets of God and Christ alwayes, use [...] [...] to come with abuse­ments of themselves in the Presence of God, and with exalting and lifting up God and Christ, they use to own themselves sinners, to have sin, and to be weak, bruitish in themselvs, [Page 2]as of themselves, and the like; never any of them have used to vaunt themselves or speak of themselves or one another as sinless, but always abase themselves and glorisie the Lord; thee therefore that come otherwise, preaching themselves sinless and perfect, and much more; that vilisie and reproach others for confesting sin, these have nor the badges of the true Prophets and Apostles; by this we may discover this People called Quakers.

That the holy men of God the Prophets and Apostles use to own themselves to have sin in them, the Scripture; witness: 1. The Patriarchs and First Fathers though we read not of any pa [...]ticular sins of some of them, yet in this they are manifest to have owned them­selves to have been sinners, and to have sin in them, that they use to worship God by Se­crifice, in which was a remembrance of sin, Hebr. 10.2, 3. But 2. The Prophets are more express in their acknowledgments, as David, Psal. 19.12. Who can know his errors? cleanse thou me from my secret sins, and keep me that presumptuous sins prevail not over me; he had secret sins them it seems to be cleansed from: And again in Psal. 38.16, 17. I said hear me least otherwise they (mine enemies) should rejoyce over me, when my foot slippeth (it seems he was sensible of slips sometimes) then they magnifie themselves against me, then they rejoyce and insult: See this is a Character of false Prophets, and enemies to the true Prophets so to do. Yea he further adds, for I am ready to halt, and my sorrow is continually before me, for I will declare my iniquity, I will be sorry for my sin (see David was sensible of his readiness to halt, and be­wails it, and he had iniquity, and sin he confested) but mine enemies (adds he) are lively, and they are strong, &c. The enemies to the true Prophets, they it seems boasted them­selves, and vapoured in their strength and pretended holiness, as if they had no sin to con­fess as poor David had, and rep [...]oached David for it, as these people, and this G. Whitehead have lately reproached us for joyning our selves with the Nation in confessing sin, and that they (the Quakers) are ordered of God as a judgment to us (namely this Nation where­of we are part) for our neglect of Christ the salvation of God, and abuse of his truth; how do they infult over us for this? Are they not herein made manifest to be like Davids enemies, false Prophets, that magnified themselves against him, and were lively and strong while he confest his sin. Again in Psal. 143.2. David says, Enter not into judgment with thy servant O Lord, for no man living shall be justified in thy fight: Mark, no man living, implying clearly that there is no man so just, and holy, and without sin in himself, while he is alive in the world, or living, or before his decease that he may be any otherwise justified in the fight of God, then by his not entring into judgement with him, that is then by his forgiving his sin, and ac­cepting him in Christ, doth not that then clearly and perfectly imply no man perfectly freed from sin in himself in this life? Solomon also says in 1 Kings 8.46. There is no man that sinneth not: And Eccles. 7.20. There is not a just man on earth that doth good and sinneth not, he did not then magnifie himself as sinless: Agur also a good man, see how he abase [...] himself, and gives glory to God in the beginning of his prophesie; Prov. 30.2, 3. Sarely (says he) I am more bru­tish than man, and have not the understanding of a man; I neither learned wisdome, nor have the know­ledge of the holy, Who hath ascended, &c. Every word of God is pure, he is a shield to them that trust in him; he was far from witnessing perfection in himself, and glorying thereof to others: No, he abases himself, and only gives glory to God. Isaiah also when h [...] was a Prophets, (for he began to prophesie in the days of Ʋzziah, Isai. 1.1.) when he saw the glory of God and Christ, and the Seraphins hiding their faces and feet with their wings in his presence as not pure enough for Gods sight, and heard them cry one to another not of o [...] another) Ho­ly, holy, holy, is the Lord God of Hosts, the whole earth is full of his glory, cries out, Wo is me, for I am undone, because I am a man of unclean lips, and live in the midst of a people of unclean lips, &c. And though the Lord then took away his iniquity, and purged his sin as if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness 1 Joh. 1.9.) yet we find him again afterward confessing his sin, and joyning himself with the people in confessing their iniquities (and so he was none of them people reproved by him that use to say to others, Stand by thy self, I am more holy then thou, as Isai. 65.5.) as in Isai. 59.10, 11, 12, 13. We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes; the deceivers of our times had they heard him say so, its probable would have replyed, Thou art a blind Guide indeed, art thou fir to be a Prophet and Shepherd? and dost thou call [...]s blind Watch­men, and thou thy self sayest thou gropest like the blind, and gropest as if thou hadst no eyes? He after adds, For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testifie against us, [Page 3]for our transgressions are with us, and as for our iniquities we know them, in transgressing, and lying a­gainst the Lord, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, &c. and again in Isa. 64.6. We are all as an uncleanthing, and all our righteousnesse are as filthy rags, and we do all fade as a lease, and our iniquities like the wind have taken us a way. So we might shew you in Jer. 14.7, 8, 9, 20, 21. And Daniel he confessed Rebellions and Sins against God. Dan. 9. and says vers. 20. he confessed his sin, and the sin of his people Istael, &c. But I would be breif.

3. Come we to the Apostles, or the times of and since Christ come in the flesh. John the Baptist acknowledged sin in him, for he sayes, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me, Matth. 3.14. He thought not himself, it seems, so clean then that he needed no further washing by Christ. So the Apostles. Paul sayes, Sin dwelt in him, Rom 7.17, 20. and in 1 Tim. 1.15. when he was an Apostle he confest himself a sinner, saying, Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am (mark, I am) the chief, or a chief one. James also sayes, In many things we offend all, Jam. 3.2. and John, If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, then have we fell [...]n ship one with another. And what then, have we no sin then in us? nay, he sayes not so, but the contrary, the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin, [cleanseth in the pre­sent time] he sayes not, it hath before cleansed us from all; so as now there is no further need for it to cleanse us; for we have none to be cleansed from. But to the contrary, If we say we have [...]o sin, we deceive our selves, and the truth is not in us. And in chap. 2.1, 2. he says, These things write I to you, that ye sin not, it seems then, the Apostles w [...]iting so, and con­festing sin in them, was not a pleading for sin, as these men upon that account traduce and reproach us, but he writ those things as a warning of men to take heed of sinning, for it tends to make men the more watchful, to know that there is such an Enemy in their bosom, that is so dangerous to them. Wheras the contrary perswasion layes men open to follow after what ever is in their hearts, as not being sin. But sayes he if any man sin, we, (we that be­leive) have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous, and he is the propitiation for our sins (marke for our sins, it seemes then they thought, and judged that they had sins, and so need to live upon Christ by Faith, as their propitiation, and to abide alwayes in him, wherin they fined no [...]) they sayd not, there is no sin in us, nor we have no sin in us for Christ to be our propitiation for. True it is, he sayes in 1 John. 4.17. as he is, so are we in this World. But we are not to straine the Scriptures beyond their scope, however, that cannot be the meaning of the Apostle, that is directly contraty to his other sayings, he cannot the [...]fore mean in it, we are without sin as he is, because that is contraty to his own saying, that if we say we have no sin, we deceive our selves, nor will it reach to all things, for then we might say as Christ is without a visible personal Body in the world, subject to aches, and pains, and mortallity, so are we too and thats evidently false, but he speaks in respect of judgment, we have such use and respect in the world as Christ hath.

Hereabout Genge Whitehead began to grow impatient, and to set himself to interrupt, and to answer, but I. H and others present, and amongst them Mr. H. the Church warden told him that was not fuire, I.H. being called, and come thither to make good his charge should have liberty to proceed, and I.H. told him he had not yet done with the first branch of it. So af­ter a little str [...]gling, he gave way for him to proceed. And he proceeded to this purpose.

I. H. You see this proved, that the true Apostles and Prophets use to confesse sin in them­selves, and none of them to glory in their perfection and sinlesnesse, only the false prophets, were otherwise carried to lift up themselves as strong and lively; and the Pharisees they use to boast, God I thank thee, I am not as other men are, not like the Publican, [...]nsti [...]g in themselves chat they were righteous, and despising others as being sinners: and whether this be not the way too of these men the Quakers, (for G W. his impatience will not perm [...] me to observe the method propounded,) I appeal to all that have heard them or read their books, Do not they glory of their sinlesnesse and righteousnesse, and despise others th [...] say they are sinners, yea, have they not reproached, (even this G. W. among the rest hath reproached us) for own­ing our selves, as part of the Nation, guilty of sin with them.

2. Again, the true Apostles and Teachers use to prove their doctrine and preaching by the Scriptures, and not to abuse the Scriptures with grosse and senselesse glosses. Now these men do abuse the Scriptures with deceitful glosses. I will instance one or two [...]we alledged, 1 Kings 8.46. There is no man that sinneth not, to prove that the true Prophets owned all men to be [Page 4]sinners in the [...]elves. Now mark what a [...]llesse glosse these people, and this G. W. by name pu [...]s upon it, viz. That among the [...] that sin, there is none that sinneth not, making the wisest of men speak a Tautolog [...] and [...] speech to God, that there is none that sins, that sins not. And then they adde to that ano [...]her sorry shift, that that was under the Old Covenant, under the New Covenant is otherwise, as if they would say, under the Old Covenant there was no man of them that sinned that sinned not: but now its otherwise, some among those that sin, sin not. Again to Eccles. 7.20. There is not a just man upon earth that si [...]neth not. They say, mark the word (there) there in the changeable state is not a just man, &c. pulling the word there from is, when as G. W. knows that it is but one word in the Latine, viz. Est, and to there and is ought not to be parted, there, is not in that place Adve [...]b of Place: and then too they must say, Job was not such a just man, for he was in the changable state, waiting all his appointed time, till his change should come. Nor Paul, and the other Believers, for they looked for the Saviour from Heaven to change their vile body, Phil. 3.20.

Hereabout again G. W. grew impatient, and would have been interrupting, and answering: but he was told, it was not fair, not to let J. H. proceed, seeing it was his work, or part, to prove his Charge against them; and the Church-warden bid him either be fair, and hear out the proof of the Charge, or else he should not be there. To whom G. W. replyed, Would he have him out of the Meeting-place? and indeed I conceive, he would have willingly had that to glory in, rather than to hear himself proved a Deceiver, and such as people ought to count accursed: but being perswaded to acquiess, or be quiet a little, he answered, there had been much said, and his memory could not bear so much as might be spoken, or to that purpose. To whom J. H. replyed: It seems, thou art not yet perfect, if thy Memory be so weak: yet after a little struggling, he gave way again: and J. H. proceeded, to this effect:

2. I should come near to the matter of their Doctrine: but he being impatient, I must but briefly mention the Heads of what I would charg them with therein: I shall only say then, That they that subvert the Faith delivered by the Apostles, and undermine the hope of the Gospel, they preach other Doctrines than the Apostles did, and are such as ought to be accounted accur [...]ed by men: Now, that these men the Quakers, and G. W. particularly doth so, I thus demonstrate.

1. They subvert the Faith in denying Christ to have tha [...] body in heaven glorified in which he suffered, and rose again, and so they deny the truth of that in Act. 1.11. that he should even [...] again in like manner as they had seen him go up; they therein subvert the Faith of his [...]pearing in heaven for us, &c.

2. They subvert the Faith in saying as Edw. Borroughs, in the Declaration of their Faith, that the knowledg of Christ that is to eternal Salvation is the knowledg of him after the Spirit, as he was before the world was, which is in effect, not to confess, but make nothing of his coming in the flesh.

Again, They subvert the hope of the Gospel, in denying the Resurrection of the bodies of [...], and in saying that that coming of Christ, in which he shall descend with a shout, with the [...] of the Archangel and Trump of God; And when the dead in Christ shall be raised, and the living believers be changed, is over and past, the Apostles and Believers of that Age [...] and remained to it; for what then have we to expect and hope. But those things we m [...]st speak to [...] we can come to them afterward, because he is impatient. N [...]w there­ [...]ore let us hear what thou canst say for thy self.

G. W. then address [...]ng himself to answer. First, pull'd out the papers that I.H. had written [...] one of which he said, that through the strength of God he would prove them Deceivers, [...] such as people ought not to hear, but to account them accursed, and another, in which [...] warned people [...] beware of them, as of those whom he by good proof knew to [...]e D [...]cei­vers, and such as people ought not to follow, but to account accursed; [...] to depart from the truth known to [...] Deceives, is without controverfie the sin [...] of in Hebr. [...].4, 5, 6. and [...], [...]6, [...] is unpardonable, when finished; nor [...] G. W. make any question about that. and, that tho [...] [...] having known the truth, [...] go after them, did [...] therein [...] able sin, which he was ready [...] lawfully called to it: which [...] [Page 5]the people: and J. H. stood to maintain them against him, Having read them, he sold the people that J. H. had not made good his charge against them: For though J. H. said true, in saying That the Prophets and Apostles witnessed sin in them, and confessed sin, yet that did not prove, that the Quakers preached another Doctrine than they did: For, though the Prophets and Apostles did so as J. H. had proved, yet (said G. W.) they witnessed also another state afterward, when th [...]y were free from sin: and that J. H. had not proved that they ha [...] sin in them so long as they lived. (which how false that was appears in what J. H. [...]id on Psal. [...]. 1.) It is true (added George) that David had sometimes s [...]cret sinnes, and confessed sinnes, but David witnessed another state, when he had no sin; for in Psal. 103.1. he sayes, Bless ye th [...] [...]ord O my soul, and all that is within me bless his holy name: now it David had sin in [...], now could all that was within him bless Gods holy name? can sin bless Gods ho [...]y name that is so contrary to God and his name? therefore seeing all within David could bless Gods name, it follows, there was no sin in him: and so in Psal. 119.1. David sayes, Blessed are the undefiled in the way, they also do no iniquity: now every sin defiles, This is spoken too in the Dispure. and therefore they have no sin in them, that are undefiled in the way, and in another place David sayes, Lord thou hast heard me, and granted me all my desires. (but we could not get him to name in what place he read that Saying, though we called to him for it, but went on, taxing us for interrupting him, and gave this gloss,) now he desired the Lord to cleanse him from his secret sinnes; and God having granted him all his desires, he was cleansed from them all. Then he went to that of Solomon, Eccles. 7.20. and reading two or three Verses before he gave this gloss upon it, That of men in the changable state there is not a just man that doth good: And hereabout T.M. and he had two or three words: T. M. objected, That there was no mention of any changable state, but of fearers of the Lord: But he went on, and (as I take it) bid Joseph whiteworth that sate by him and wrote, write, that Tho. Moore said, (a falshood.) There is no changable state: and added, that Solomon said, That the righteousness of the *Men may be said to be perfect, that yet have sin in them, as Job was a perfect man, Job 1.8. and 2.3. yet he had sin, Job 7.20, 21. and 42.5, 6. and Asa, as 2 Chr. 15.17, with 16.8.perfect shall direct his way, and so went on to Isaiah, and gave the like put off to him, as, that Isaiah indeed confess'd sin, but witnessed another state, when God had wrote all his works in him: and Daniel witnessed the bringing in an everlasting righteousness. And Christ bid, Exhortations to things prove not those things to be perfectly attained by any here: nor doth the Scripture ever say, Let not sin be in you, as if men might get it all out; though it sayes, Let it not reign in your mortal bodies. Be ye perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect, and Paul sayes, So many as are perfect let us be thus minded. And James sayes, Let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be intire, wanting in no good thing. And to that of h [...]s saying, In many things we sin all: he said, So he sayes, With the tongue we bless God, and therewith curse we men: not that He did so, though he put in himself, and so as if he was none of the all that offended. And that John sayes, If we say, We have no sin, or have not sinned; but he sayes not, If we say we are not all sinners we deceive our selves; that he joyned himself with the little It seems then, the little children may have sin in them: and are not they born of God? How else were they children, and knew the Fa­ther? as 1 John 2.13. So then, They that are born of God may have sin in them.Children to whom he writ, that they might not sin, and that they might have sin: and with reference to them he sayes, If we say, we have no sin, we deceive our selves: but they witnessed another state, when they say, Whosoever is born of God sinneth not, because the seed of God abideth in him: Neither can he sin, because he is born of God. And in 1 John 5.18. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself that the wicked one toncheth him not: And again, He that doth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous: And therefore He concluded, That J. H. had not made good his Charge; had not proved, That they preached other Doctrine than was preached by the Apostles, &c.

To this I. H. replyed, That he had mistaken his Argument, which was to this purpose, That the true Prophets and Apostles came confessing sin, and not reproaching any for so doing, but they did not so own sin, but reproach them that confest them. They urged that I. H. said the Prophets and Apostles came always confessing sin, whereas the expression was always abasing themselves and exalting the Lord, and that they use to acknowledge themselves sinners, and [Page 6]to have sin, and never to say of themselves that they were without sin, or had no sin; but I. H. waving other things asked G. W. whether they that he proved to have owned themselves sin­ners, and to have confessed their sin (as he also had granted) were Prophets and Apostles when they so did: To that G. W. answered, that they did then minister. I. H. What? did they mi­nister before they were Prophets and Apostles? Had they not Commission from God then to minister, and so were they not then Prophets and Apostles when they spake and wrote such things as were alledged. To this G. W. somewhat unwillingly (as he seemed) granted that they were then Prophets and Apostles.

I. H.

What state was that then in which they witnessed no sin in them, if they were Pro­phets and Apostles when they confessed sin.

G. W.

When they were born of God then they witnessed no sin in them, or that they were freed from fin, for he that is born of God sinneth not, &c.

I. H.

Were not the Apostles then born of God when they were Apostles, and wrote these things, as Paul, that it was no more be that did it, but sin that dwelt in him.

G. W. Paul had a time when he was not born of God, when he groaned, and travelled, and waited for the adoption, the redemption of the body; for while sin was above him, and he groaned and was burthened with it, he was not yet born of God, but when he was set free from it then he was born.

I. H.

What was not Paul bo [...]n of God when he says, We also that have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we our selves, groan within our selves, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of the body.

G. W. Paul when he travelled, and was g [...]oaning for deliverance, and waiting for the re­demption of the body, was not as yet born or God; but afterward he witnessed a being redee­med from sin, and then he was born, as ye know in natural things, a woman when she is in tra­vel to be delivered, the child is not yet born.

I. H.

People, I pray did ye ever hear of a woman in travel, before that woman was born? Was there ever such a thing? Here all the people fell a laughing at G. W.

G. W.

Nay, thou beliest me, I did not say so, That a woman travels with child before she be born.

I. H.

Nay, I did not say thou saidst so, but thy similitude must be so, if thou speakest to pur­pose, for it was Paul that thou saidst groaned and travelled to be delivered, and it is the woman in travel that groans and travels, not the child to be born: But George I shall read thee a Scri­pture, and prove that Paul was then born of God; it is 1 John 5.1. Whosoever beleeveth that Je­sus is the Christ is born of God. Paul did believe Jesus to be the Christ when he was an Apo­stle and writ to the Romans, and said they waited for the redemption of the body; did not Paul when an Apostle (and so the rest of them) believe Jesus to be the Christ? which wilt thou deny.

G. W.

[Here George was pittifully put to it, and all the people generally see his confusion, that he was in a share, so that he durst deny neither of those Propositions; but he then flew to another shift] that Paul condescended in his writing to those of low degree, and that were not yet born of God, and became a Jew to the Jew, and to them that were under the Law, as under the Law.

I. H.

Tell me which Proposition thou wilt deny, Is not whosoever believes Jesus to be the Christ born of God; Or did not Paul when he owned himself to have sin in him believe that Jesus was the Christ: And here G. W. was pittifully shackled and nonplust, and would fain have been out of the Argument, having nothing to say for himself still but that.

G. W.

The Apostle condescended to the estate of some he wrote to (as if the believing Ro­mans or Saints at Rome that he wrote to) were not born of God, or did not then believe that Je [...]us is the Christ; or as if the Apostle would make himself an unbeliever with unbe­lievers.

I. H.

Then it seems Paul wrote a lie, as touching himself that he waited for the Redem­ption of the body, and travelled (as thou sayest) in pain when it was selfe of h [...] h [...] did not so but had already attained the Redemption of his body. Did he say fal [...]y of himself?

G. W.

He condescended to the state of others, he became a Jew to the Jew, &c. as before.

J. H.

Did he say falsly then with respect to himself? Did not Paul believe that Jesus was the Christ, when he was an Apostle, and confessed sin in himself? was not he born of God. Here he being still baffled and not answering any thing to the purpose, divers called to him [Page 7]to answer to the business, or else to own himself a Deceiver, or to that purpose.

T. M.

Answer then, whether Paul was born then of God, or believed Jesus to be Christ or to that purpose.

G. W.

You are two to one.

T. M.

We speak both but one thing; we ask the same thing.

G. W.

I came not here to satisfie unreasonable men; Paul spake at a Jew to the Ju [...].

J. H.

Then he spake there false it seems of himself; wilt thou say so? He b [...]ng p [...]zled about it J. H. said to him, Ah George, where is thy vaunting Language now, as if thou couldst tread down all before thee? and thy setting up thy self above God?

G. W.

Thou be [...]est me: Did I set up my self above God? See people how [...] or to that purpose.

J. H.

Didst thou not set up thy self above God, when thou didst reproach me by my G [...]d? as if he would or could not carry me forth against thee: He said, If thy God will c [...]ry thee forth, by way of reproach. [Also I was informed, that at Godney they said, They would make us ashamed of our God: Now, if God be the true God (as he is) what, but a setting up themselves above God was this let all judg.]

J. H.

Canst thou deny that Paul was born of God, when an Apostle? or, that he believed that Jesus was the Christ?

G. W. Paul spake to the state of others when he said, O wretched man that I am; and groaned, and waited for the Redemption of the body.

J. H.

Did Paul then witness or experiment the Redemption of his Body from corruption before he dyed?

G. W.

Yea, he did witness it.

T. M.

Witness it; But Had he it? was his body redeemed from corruption before he dyed?

G. W.

Yea, he had the Redemption of his body before he dyed.

J. H.

Is not the body sown in corruption when it dyes? It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

G. W.

Yea, but is not sin corruption?

J. H.

How is it redeemed from corruption before it dye, when it is sown in corruption when it dyes?

G. W.

Corruption is sin: Pauls body was redeemed from the Law of sin, and Death.

J. H.

But is all corruption sin? There is a corruption of mortality th [...]t came in by sin.

G. W.

All corruption is sin, or came in by sin; and take away the cause, and the effect ceases. Now we shall prove that he was made free from sin.

T. M.

Answer plainly, and prove it from the Scripture, That the Redemption of the body that Paul waited for, he had it before he dyed: For you bring nothing for it [...]et but your corrupt Logick, in which one as weak as my self might discover its [...]alsness.

G. W.

Did I use any Logick—what Logick?

T. M.

Where there is freed me from the cause the effect ceases▪ Now, that Paul had freedome from sin the cause of corruption before he dyed is that you w [...]nt about to prove, and so to get from the Question.

J. H.

Yea that is Logicall; but will not alwayes hold; the effect may last when the cause is goue [as a house may stand, when he that built it is dead] but is not that corruption which is in death, in which the body corrupteth? and did not Paul wait for the Redemption of his body from that?

G. W.

Yea that death that came in by sin. [but what death was that that cameth by sin (he said he asked the Question before I asked what follovvs though I do not remember that he did]

I. H.

What Death came not in by sin?

G. W.

What death came in by sin?

I. H.

I asked thee vvhat death came not in by it?

G. W.

I ask thee a question, and thou ansvverest me by asking me an [...]ther: Ansvver my Question, I first asked thee.

I. H.

I did not hear that thouaskedst that Question first, but thou saidst, That death that came in by sin: and I asked thee, what death came not in by sin?

G. W.

Nay I asked thee first, What Death came in by sin? and thou refusest to ansvver my Question; Is this fair?

I. H.

pe [...]ceiving he sought occasion to vvinde out from the business in hand, by starting [Page 8]another Question, if he did first ask it, or whensoever he started it; replyed: I remember not that thou didst ask me that first; but however 'tis not my business now to answer thy questions, that may lead us from the matter in hand; My business is now to prove my charge against thee: if thou wilt own that that is done I will answer thee thy question.

G.W.

pulling out a book writ by J.H. and T.M. about their former Dispute with him, and S.F. would fain have diverted to it, and said, He would prove J.H. had there bely'd him.

J.H.

Thou hast answered that Book in print, the people may see what thou sayst against us there, and we shall give it an answer God willing ere long▪ what have we to do with hearing thee read in that book now?

G.W.

I will prove here that J.H. hath here contradicted himself, or to that purpose, and would fain have been reading.

J.H.

If thou wilt grant I have proved my charg, we will hear thee read; but if not, let me do what I come about. Answer me, and prove that Paul had the Redemption of his body there spoken of before he dyed.

G.W.

urging yet to read, the people told him, That was to go from his business, and bid him answer to what he was charged with, or say the Charg was proved.

J.H.

Did Paul prove the Redemption of his body before his decease, for which he waited, as he sayes Rom. 8.23?

G.W.

Yea he did before his decease.

J.H.

Prove that.

G.W.

In Rom 8.2. He sayes, The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the Law of sin and death. And in another place, I can do nothing against the truth, but for it.

J.H.

What be these to the purpose? Paul said, He was made f [...]ee from the law of sin and death, before he said, He waited for the adoption, the redemption of the body: For he sayes that in Rom. 8.2. and yet speaks of waiting for the Redemption of his body, after that, in ver. 23. Therefore what he sayes about his being free from the Law of sin and death could not be the redemption of h [...]s body that he there mentions; for why should he wait for that yet; if he before had it? did he wait for what he had already?

Here G.W. was wholly driven from that proof, so as we heard no more of it, and to help himself betook him to the other.

G.W.

But he sayes in the other place, he could do nothing against the truth but for the truth.

J.H.

Could he then do something against the truth when he said, He waited for the Redemption of the body? The which also T.M. asked.

G.W.

Yea, That which waited for the Redemption could: for he cryed out, Oh wretched man that I am; and he was led captive by the Law of sin and death.

T.M.

Where sayes he That he was led captive by it? He sayes, He found a law in his members leading him captive to the law of sin and death: but where sayes he that he was led?

G.W.

He sayes, With his flesh he served the law of sin; so then he was led by it, and could do against the truth: Doth not fin do against the truth?

J.H.

But Paul sayes not, That his flesh or members waited for the adoption, the redemption of his body, but that he himself waited for it: and though his flesh served the law of sin, yet that was not he that did it, but fin that dwel [...] in him.

T.M.

While he waited for the adoption, the Redemption of the body, though fin acted in him, yet he did not walk after it, but was led by the Spirit; and so could do nothing against the truth: or to that purpose.

G.W. George still pleaded, That his members, the creature that waited for the redemption could do someth [...]ng against the truth, till it was deliver'd from the bondage to corruption; and then it had the Redemption of the body, for which he waited.

T.M. Paul, while he waited for the Redemption of the body, was led by the Spirit of G [...]d, and such as are the sons of God; and they that are born of God cannot sin, or do any thing against the truth: or to that purpose.

G.W.

still insisted upon the creature waiting to be deliver'd that it night, a [...]d that Pauls [...] which were yet in bondage to corruption might act against the truth, not receiving the A [...]wer given, That th [...] was not he that did it, but sin that dwelt in him, [...]nd so [...] him; [...] That such as are led by the Spirit, and are sons of God, [...] at such, and so in [...] Paul sayes it of himself, do any thing against the truth, but for it; [...] at is, not find in his heart to yeild up to sin inticing, or striving in his members to do any thing against it.

[Besides, a by-Note. Paul sayes in the same Chapter, vers. 35, 36, 37. That he was perswaded nothing could seperate them from the love of God in Christ Jesus: and therefore [...] he could then do nothing against the truth, but for it. But this that G.W. pleaded, clearly argued their gross [Page 9]corruption, in not believing the Redemption of the body from death and grave; and that made him put it upon a Redemption of Pauls members only from sin, from which yet that he was perfectly freed, as [...]o its inherency in him before death he was not able to prove.]

J.H.

calling oftentimes to be heard by G.VV. what he had said, and had to say, and G. going on in a discourse, to no purpose, about the creature being in a travail, and waiting for th [...] Redemption, and applying that to Pauls body or members to be redeem'd from sin, and acting then ag [...]st he truth: J.H. said, I came here to prove you Deceivers, and to make good my charge, and [...] heard wha [...] I have to say. Thereupon J.Lee, without our approbation, called out to him, and said. G.VV. why caust thou not bee patient now, and hear what is said to thee as well as thou [...] other day with Mr. F.?

G.W.

Here G.VV. could hear that, and take occasion to spend a little time in commending [...] as he call'd him, as better and more moderate than we.

J.H.

We are not desirous of thy commendations, or think them any great praise to us, if [...] them; I came here to make good my charge against yon, and you run on to other things, and [...] not hear what I say to you. That which thou talkest of the creatures groaning and waiting [...] deliverance is a distinct thing from what we have in hand, and pertains not to Pauls waiting for the deliverance in his body, or members, thou talkst of, read the Text, and here J.H read the [...] 8.19. The earnest exspectation of the creatures waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. The creature that waiteth for the manifestation of the Sons of God is distinguished from the Sons of God to be manifested, and is not the Sons of God themselves: and so in vers. 21. The creature itself shall be deli­vered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God: See the same distinction again. And th [...]n again, when he had said, The whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together untill now, he adds, And not only they, but we our selves also who have received the first fruits [...] the spirit. See an evident distinction between the creature before-mentioned, and that travailed in pain, about which thou mak [...]st a stir: and Paul and the Believers that waited for the Redemption of the body from mortality and corruption: they were the Sons of God to be manifested, and being sons of God, born of God, could then do nothing against the truth but for it, in such sense as he that is born of God sinneth not nor can sin, and yet they had the Redemption of the body as a father thing to wait for: And therefore that saying, That he could do nothing against the truth but for it, proves not that he could do not that he had in this life the Redemption he here speaks of. Prove that Paul had this Redemption of his body before he dyed, or else own the charge proved.

The people calling upon him to make good that, or else own the charge made good, he replyed.

G.W.

If I should own that he hath made good his Charge against me, I should prove J.H. to contradict himself; for he saies in his Paper, That people should not hear us, and yet you and he would have me answer that you might hear me what I have to say, He read the Paper.

G.W.

jangling with some of the people about that frivolous put off. J.H. called to be heard, and answered thus,

J.H.

I did explain the meaning of that word when I writ the Paper, and gave it out, and de­sired I might by hearing be understood to listen to and receive your Doctrine, as I appeal to Esq. Sho [...]ter, if he be here.

G.W.

Then people you may see his deceit, that he w [...]ires one thing, and means another that is not here vvritten, for here it is hear.

J.H.

I gave my meaning to the vvord expresly vvhen I gave my Paper to G.F. and Ed Shitter, nor did I publish the Paper.

G.W.

Many have seen it.

J.H.

I gave it to none but Ed. Sheoter, or G. Fox, and gave my sense to them vvith it: If they shevved it many, that vvas their act.

T.M.

The next vvords explain the meaning, because it follovvs, but to account them accursed. It is not so to hear as to receive them.

People. This is a mere cavil: Let him ansvver to the business in hand, or yeild the [...] pr [...]oved.

G.W.

Do you think I vvill grant (or ovvn) That people should count us [...]?

J.H.

I do not think you vvill, nor did I undertake to make you ovvn it. But to prove you so. Its enough, the people see it; They are to judg vvhether I make good my charge.

T.M.

Either speak something to purpose, or acknovvledg thy mouth stopp'd, as it hath often been by the force of the truth.

G.W.

He vvould have me acknovvledg my mouth stopt, and yet I speak to them, and ansvver them.

T.M.

A man may have his mouth stopt, though he speak vvhen he speaks to no purpose. A mans mouth his stop'd when he cannot resist the wisdome and povver by vvhich the truth is spoken, as Act 6. could not resist, though yet they are said Act. 7. to have resisted. And it appears thy mo [...]th is stopt, because thou runst avvay from the charge to other imper [...] things.

[Page 10]
J.H.

Well George, hither to I have made good my charg, That you come not as the true Prophets and Apostles, thou hast not been able to prove, That any of them preach'd themselves free from sin, so as to be without sin. Thou didst speak of David confessing another state, and brought Psal. 107.1. All that is within me bless his holy name, and from thence wouldst infer, that David had no sin in him then; for How could sin bless Gods name? but David himself implyes the contrary, for vers▪ 3. he sayes, Who forgiveth all thine iniquity; it seems he had some then.

G.W.

They were for given.

T.M.

It is forgiveth, in the present time: can there be forgiveness of sin, if there be no sin he signifies a dayly forgiving, or to such purpose.

G.W. David saith, Psal. 119.1. There are some underfiled in the way, who do no iniquity.

J.H.

Doth David say, There are some undefiled, he sayes they are blessed that are so: but that there are some so at least in such a sense as to have no sin in them he sayes not; I am sure he sayes not so of himself, That he had no sin in him, but implyes the contrary (in vers. 5, 6.) when he sayes, O that my wayes were so directed, that I might keep thy statutes; as implying they were not yet so: And again, Then shall I not be ashamed when I shall have respect to all thy Commandements; he doth not say, He had then such respect to them all.

G.W.

Doth not David say, there are some undefiled, when he sayes blessed are the undefiled in the way, and doth not every sin defile? therefore he Witnesled some had a sinless state: or to that purpose.

J.H.

He sayes undefiled in the way, Christ is the way: We grant some undefiled and compleat in Christ, but not so as to be sinless in themselves? Is not undefiled perfect?

G.W.

Yea, undefiled is perfect.

J. H.

A man may be perfect in a Scripture sense, and yet have sin. Asa's heart was perfect with the Lord all his dayes, and yet he sinned.

G.W.

When was that written of him?

J.H.

Surely after his death, how else should they say what he was all his dayes?

G.W.

Nay it might be written before; and so all his dayes till that was written his heart was perfect; for afterward he relyed not on the Lord, but sought to the Physicians: his heart was not perfect then.

J.H.

How could the Hystory of his life and death be written, but after his death? It is not said, all those dayes, or till such a time; but his heart was perfect all his dayes: a part of his dayes is n [...]t all his dayes. [his heart was perfect in that he walked not between God and Baal, or an [...] fa [...]se-wo [...]ship.]

G.W.

He might be perfect all his dayes till then that was written: but if the righteous man turn [...] his right [...]o [...]sness and co [...]mit miquity, his righteousness shall not be mentioned.

J.H.

H [...] heart was perfect all his dayes, [his righteousness is mentioned,] It is not said, [...] turned, [...] being perfect-hearted.

G.W.

He was but one.

J.H.

I [...] one that had sin in him, or sinned, might be yet called perfect-hearted, then why not tw [...], o [...] twenty, or an hundred. He would sain have been reading in J. H's book, but he told him it was besides the b [...]siness.

Wh [...] w [...] were busie in our discourse came Giles Rose a poor deluded man, that was one of the [...]st [...]hat turned Q [...]aker in the Town of Lin but upon some account or other doth not throughly [...]w [...] th [...]m but is est [...]ded at them, and as it hath been said, objected sometimes against them some [...] [...]ges between some of their speakers, and a woman of them: He had made an inter­ [...]p [...]on two dayes before of another dispute between G.VV. and another Mi [...]ster in the Town; The people hea [...]ing him begin at a distance, like a kin [...]e of distracted man, to call out, and seeing him coming, made some commotion, some of them crying to have him carryed away, that he might not [...]ake any dist [...]ce o [...] interruption of the Dispute, but that he [...]ight proceed, and others [...]ging him in and setting him in the midst of us, who began first to one party and then to [...], to play the part of a Prophet in his conception against us for disp [...]ting, and variance [...] [...] for [...]oos [...]ning the [...]e of love, taxing G. VV. and his party for drawing away Wives from them [...], Children from their Parents, Servants from their Masters, &c. To whome GEORGE spake a word or two, [...]ebuking his way as deceit.

T.M.

See the [...] thy ministry George, the people laught, thy Principles are sur [...] to lead [...] to dest [...]actions.

G.W.

He is none of [...]e fruit of my Ministry.

I. A. Your Principles, or Ministry, led a Brother of mine I am sure into destraction.

I H. Yes, I am a witnesse of that; so▪ he fell to my knowledge out of Quaking fits, within a very little space into destraction, and within a fortnight died.

[Page 11]
G. W.

It was before I came to this Towne.

I. H.

But not before yonr Principles and Doctrine came, after some time of interruption by the aforesaid Giles when a little quiet was obtained. I. H. fell on againe.

I. H.

I have made good my charge against you George, as not coming as the true Apostles and Prophets use to do. I shall a little speak to the other part in one argument, because I see time goes a way. 'Tis this, they that under-mine and destroy the hope of the Gospel preached by the A­postles, they are preachers of another Gospel or Doctrine, then the Apostles preached, and are to be accounted accursed, and not received, or followed. This I charge you Quakers with, and you G. W. by name. in that you say the coming of Christ, at which the dead in Christ are to be raised, is already past and over. They that so do, subvert the hope of the Gospel. Mind it people.

They that say the coming of Christ, wherin the dead in Christ are to be raised, is past and over, they subvert, or under-mine the hope of the Gosple, for if Christ be come in his glory, and the Saints raised that were dead, and the living changed, and all together caught up in the aire to meete the Lord, what have we then to hope or look for.

G. W.

denying this. I. H. read their words out of their Book against him, and T. M. their words are thus, as for that coming of Christ spoken of in 1 Thess. [...]4.15. which these men would blindly put a sat off, to a coming of Christ in a Body of flesh and bones, the Apostle says wee that live and remaine tell the coming of the Lord. So that coming of Christ, the Saints that were [...]hen a live remained unto it. Judge good people, is Christ yet come, are the dead bodies of the Saints raised, and the living changed, and all caught up together in the aire to meete him. If those men be not such as we are to avoid, and account accursed, who be?

G. W.

Thou readest out of a book, and yet will not give w [...]y, I should read out of thy Book.

M. H Here is not the same reason. He [...]s to prove you deceivers, and such as are to be accounted accursed, (or to that purpose) and therfore may produce Testimonies out of your books against you, but you are not to prove against him, but to defend your self.

J H▪ What host thou to say to this argument.

G.W.

I meant is not of that resurrection of the dead thou speakest of, or to that purpose.

J, H. Thou speakest of that coming of Christ mentioned in that Scripture, and that Scripture speaks of Christ descending from Heaven to raise the dead in him. I shall read it to you 1 Thess▪ 4.13, 14 I would not have you ignorant Brethren concerning them that sleept. Its evident he speaks of those that sleepe in the bodyly death, as its sayd of St [...]phen, that when he had said those words he fell a sleepe, He would not have Beleivers mourne as those without hope concer [...]ing them. For if we beleive sayth he that Jesus died and rose again, even so then also that sleepe in Jesus will God bring with him, for this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive (that is those of us of our body or society, accounting beleivers of all ages but as one body) and remain [...] to the coming of the Lord, shall not revent th [...] that are a sleepe. For the Lord himself shall dese [...]nd from heaven with a shout, and with the vo [...]ce o [...] th [...] Archangel, and with the Trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, and we which [...]e a live and remaine, shall be caught up toge­ther with them in the clouds, to meete the Lord in the ai [...]e, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. What more plaine th [...]n that he speaks of the co [...]ng of Christ to raise the dead, those that sleepe [...] the grave, and to change [...]e living beleivers, [...] Now I appeal to you all, whither those things were done in the time of those beleiv [...] before they dyed, and if so what have we to [...]ope for.

G. W.

There is a twofold sleeping spoken o [...], there is a sleeping spi [...]itually (or to that pur­pose) such as is spoken of in the next Chapter. Let us not sl [...]epe as do others, but let us watch and be [...]ober, for they that sleepe sleepe in the [...]ght, and there i [...] a sleeping such as St [...]phen is said to fall a [...]eepe in at death. Now the Apo [...] there sp [...]a [...] of the first.

J. H.

Nay, he speak of the sleeped [...] death, the dead in Christ shall rise first.

G. W.

Is it not sayd, the howe is coming, and no [...]s, that the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and th [...]y that hear shall live. John 5.25.

J. H.

Had not the Apostles and beleive [...]s heard that voice of [...] Son of God, raising them from death in sin, before the Apostle wrote this, or [...] they that yet to looke for, that in John speaks of men dead in sin, and this of the dead in Christ.

G. W.

Is it not sayd of those Th [...]ssalonian, tha [...] they turned from dumb Idolls to serve the living God, and to wayte for his Son from [...] could they waite for a thing so far off? was it not the revelation of Christ to their Soules, or to su [...]h purpose was his Answer.

J. H.

Had not those Th [...]ssalen [...]s a [...]evelation of christ to their Soules, as to the knowledge of him before they turned from their dumb Idols to serve the living God.

G. W.

Nay they had not the revelation of Christ then before they turned from dumb Idols, but they waited for it.

[Page 12]
J. H.

What was it turned them to God then, was not that a frutie of the Gosple coming to them, and doth nor the Gospel reveale Christ.

G. W.

Yea, there is a measure of the knowledg of Christ, which if they be obedient they shall have more, as they that obtained like precious Faith with the Apostles, that had the sure word of pro­phesy as a light shining in a dark place, did well to take heed to it, tell the day dawned, and the day Starr arose in the heart, when that dawned and arose that was the coming of the day of the Lord. to such purpose was his answer, but with more circumstances.

J. H.

Had not the beleivers, and cheifly the Apostles, beare that further measure of light, and revelation of Christ, when they thus wrote, or what is that to the purpose of this coming spoken in the Text, is that with the voice of the Archang [...]l and the Trump of God, and the dead in Christ all raised then, and those a sleepe changed, [that is to one now, and to another then; and those that are in a living frame, may prevent those that are in a sleepy posture, such as the Apostle warns us not to be in. Therfore thats nothing to the purpose.] the Thessalonians had something of that spi­ritual revelation of Christ, as the c [...]se of their turning [...] to serve the living God.

G. W.

There George [...] r [...]n into a long circuling [...], a [...]ing the same over and over againe, the s [...]m [...] of which so f [...]r as I could perceive was [...] d [...]ent measures of the reve­lation of the knowledge of Christ, and that they that [...] the least, should have more to the perfect day.

J. H.

Hears nothing but the same things over and over. But did the Apostles receive the full revelation of Christ in the time of their live.

G. W.

You ask whither [...] all the glory they should have before death. Or whither they should have no more glory after death.

T. M.

Nay, we ask about th [...] glorious coming of Christ, in which the dead shall be raised; had they that before they dyed, is there no other coming of Christ in glory for them, and us to see, then what they had, or see while they lived.

Here he wrangled a little about the question, and answered nothing to purpose, but that they had greater measure before they died, but as if they might have more glory after.

J. H.

Its evident that the Apostle Paul did not remaine to that coming of the Lord there spok­en of, that I shall prove.

G. W.

How do you prove it.

J. H.

Because he diad and is dead, wheras had he remained to that coming of the Lord, he should only have bin changed, and caught up into the aire. I appeale to all the people whither my charge be not herein made good against thee.

G. W.

Nay, it is not.

J. H.

Thou, nor I must not be judges in our own causes, let the people judge.

G. W.

Nay, that of God in the people must be judge.

J. H.

I appeale to that of God in them all, whither the coming of Christ there spoken of be over and past while the Apostles lived, are the dead in Christ raised, the living changed, all toge­ther caught up into the aire to meete the Lord, &c

G. W.

Would needs read something out of J.H. book, being not able to make good his saying which J. H. charged, as contrary to the Apostles Doctrine about the coming of Christ. And be­gan to read something of John Horn's granting and bewayling the too much of that of the Prophet Isaiah 56.10. was too true of to many Ministers of England, as that his watch-men are blind, they are dumb doggs, which he going about to turne upon I. H.

I. H.

Replyeds Nay George thou dost not finde us dumb doggs, we are made able blessed be God to worry thee thou seest, and put thee to the worst.

G. W.

He is in the nature of a dog it seemes then, wheras Christ sent not out his Apostles a [...] dogs, the Lyonis said vorare of which the word worry comes. but as lambs amongst wolves.

I. H.

But the Lamb of God is a Lyon too George (and maks Israel a Lyon too as in Gen 49 9. as a Lyon amongst the beasts of the Forrest, (as Mica. 5.8, 9 and its in his strength and power, that we are inabled to teare and worry thee, for all thy great brags.

I. H.

And some others of his Friends laughing at the Quakers, and at G. W. to see some of his confusion in some passage.

G. W.

Thou art in Ishmaels nature, or we may see Ishmael in you, or to such purpose.

I. H.

Nay, 'tis Isaac's nature, Isaac had his name of laughter; and it is said the righteous shall see them, and laugh them to scorne, And we rejoice to see the Lord strengthen us to baffle you, and to make manifest your folly, &c.

G. W.

Art thou righteous then.

I. H.

Why not, compleatly righteous in Christ, though in my self I acknowledg sin.

[Page 13]
G. W.

See how he contradicts himself, [...] be compleat in Christ, and yet have sin in him.

I. H.

Though that be out of our way, and from the businesse in hand, yet I shall prove that those two will stand to­gether. The Apostle says Coloss. 2.10. In him yee are compleat, and yet in the same Epistle, to the same people he says Chap, 3.5. Mortifie these therfore, your members that be upon Earth, fornication, uncleannesse, &c. If these were not in them, how could they be called their members upon Earth? [and why should they be bid to mortifie them, if they had no life in them too]

G. W.

The Apostle sayes of those that were compleat in Christ, In whome also yee are circumcised with the circum­cision made without hands, the putting off the the body of the sins of the flesh.

I. H.

He doth so, and yet bids them Chap. 3.8. Put of all those things still, anger, wrath, malice, &c. [They had put them off as to their purpose and bent of heart, and yet had need to put them off in their dayly practic, and conversation.]

G. W.

The Apostles writing to the Churches writ to diverse States. Some of them were compleat in Christ, and o­thers were not, but had their members to mortifie, &c.

I. H.

The Apostle makes no such distinction, he says not some of you are compleat in Christ, but says it without limi­tation to some, in him yee are compleat; and so he gives the other counsell to all of them [yea, he gives it upon suppo­sition of their being raised with Christ, and are not those that risen with Christ compleat in Christ? Col. 3.1, 5.] what do you think that the Apostle writ one Chapter to one part of the people, and another Chapter to another?

After this, returning to the businesse of Christs coming to raise the dead being past before the Apostles dyed, and nothing further being answered to it, but that Paul spake of a spiritual coming to mens spirits, we slid upon that of 1 Kings. 8 46. I known how that there is no man that sinneth not.

G. W.

Wilt thou affirme that of all men living now.

I. H.

Nay, first, wilt thou grant it of all men living, let us agree first of what was then, and then come to the times now.

G. W.

I say no man that was in that State sinned.

I. H.

The word are, there is no man that sinneth not. There is no mention of any State in some, in which all sinned, distinct from some other state in which some men firmed not.

G. W.

It is said if they sin, for there is no man that sinneth not.

I. H.

It is absolutely said, a [...] the reason why Israel might be supposed to sin, that theres no man that sinneth not

I, M. It is not said if they sin, then thereis no man that sins not, but, for theres no man that sinneth not.

G. W.

Theres no man in that State.

I. H.

Theres no limitation to any state, but there is no man that sinneth not. Ah George dost thou go up and down prea [...]ing to men to look to the light, and dost thou despute; and plead against the light in thee, dost thou not see the Scripture is against thee.

G. W.

There is no man in [...] that sinneth not.

I, H. Is there any man in [...], that is not a man, if he be a man he sinneth, for there is no man that sin­neth not.

G. W.

All in that state sin. But [...] thou say, there is no man now that sinneth not.

I. H.

[...] is no into living [...] not, or hath not sin in him now, Jesus Christ excepted.

G. W.

then there is a [...] sinneth not. Then its not true of all men.

I. H.

Jesus Christ is [...], God with us, God-man, and so more then a man.

T. M.

[...] Christ is included in the [...] sinned against. If they sin against thee. He is that one, and only man that good because he is God; and therfore he must needs be excepted.

To [...] was the discourse between I. H. and G. W. We have here given the substance, and scope, if not also the very [...] the Answers, and the very words, and forme, so much as could be remembred. After which the Church- [...] M. H. with other Friends seeing I. H. much spent with speaking so long, and so much, and fearing he might [...] therin, desired him to give the people some short exhortation and conclude.

Accordingly I. H. minded the people of what had hin proved against them, and warned the people to take heed of [...] and tamper [...] with them, [...] they became an [...] too, and should be given up of God to beleive delusions to their own destruction. And so desired them to withdraw, and they begining to depart, he also being [...] and much spent withdrew, and the whole company dispersed to their several wayes, seeming generall well satis­fied against the Quakers, [...] the no small trouble of the Quakers: as might be conceived from their coming diverse of them in the Lords day after with G. W. to the Congregation, to have made some disturbance upon the people, or to indeavoure to have been drawing a way some of them. But God mercifully prevented them of their purpose.] Only they sat and heard diverse of their corrupt [...], further disproved from that in 1. Sam. 2.2. There is [...] holy as the Lord. And amongst other things I. H. to [...] [...]easion in speaking to the holinesse of Gods Name, to shew G. W. grosse Jesuitical glosse, upon Psal. 103.1 [...] [...] there was no sin in David, because then all within him could not [...] God. Shewing that not only David [...] of or owned that he had sin for God to forgive, but also that the words in the Hebrew and La [...]ne signifies only all my inwards, or inward parts, of which sin can be none, though it bee in a man, yet its none of the inwards of a man, no part of the man. But with such [...] deceitfull inference, and ar­guments, they delude simple people, that fall down and worship them as holy men; and Prophets, and either [...] not able, or not willing to examine, and try what is said by them, and indeed that is one thing that [...] them such as men ought to reware of, as very dangerous persons to [...], that they are so [...] with what sophestry and deceit, they abuse the over credu [...]u [...] people, so they may but [...] them, and draw them after them All people avoid, and take [...] of them. Beware of false Prophur that [...] clothing, but inwardly are [...]avenous Wo [...]ves. By such like frates as corrupting [...] from the faith of hope in Christ, and their deceitfull wayes, yee may know them.

POSTSCRIPT.

OUr Lord Jesus teaching his Disciples to pray to God as their Father, and in the first place to breath and de­sire the hallowing [...] sying of Gods Name, the coming of his Kingd [...]m, and that this will might be done in earth as it is in heave [...] yet [...]hing them [...] for [...]giveness of their [...]espasses, doth he not strong [...]y and plainly i [...]ply that [...] are the hildren of G [...], and so born of God, and th [...] have their hearts through his grace set [...] the curing of his Kingdom, and the d [...]ing of his w [...]ll, have sins and [...] against [...] for give [...]s. If it be replyed, Yea while [...]ule children, and but desiving th [...]e things they [...] ( [...] G. W. says the little children to whom John writes that they should not sin, might [...] they in wh [...] [...] is name is hallowed the kin! me come, and the will done in [...] in heaven, they have [...]. Then I to that say, 1. Are [...] the little [...]hildren that know the Father and call God Father th [...] [...] Christs teaching, born of God, and thea [...] wh [...]s [...]ever is born of God is [...] as n [...]t! [...], or in any thing to [...]ssend, how c [...]me the [...] children to be excepted, and if they though [...] have sins and desp [...]sses to pray [...] in Scriptive have we [...], that others [...] God, and so any of them may not in [...] sense too have [...] and [...]. I [...] we [...] that any are so perfectly born [...] to have his Name so hall reed to and in them, [...] me to come, and will [...] [...]e, as they may be no [...]e, [...] more per­fectly [...]? Or is it [...] teaches that to pray, till his Nan [...] [...] everywhere hal­lowed, his kingdom [...], and will perfectly done every where, even in [...], as in heaven, which is not in this w [...]ld. But [...] for daily bread, or as the w [...]d may be end [...]ed [...] necessary for bread, [...] of them, and that before [...] of their [...]; Doth he [...] men have need of bread for their life, and subsistence here they have a [...] need to pray for [...] if then the Quakers so called, wi [...] s [...]y they have [...] sin in them, [...]et them [...], and we may then it may be think there is ground to beleeve them that [...]he name of God [...] so come, and his will so done in them, that they have [...] passes; Note, VVh [...] is [...] of God [...], &c. 1. VVhosoever is perfectly born of God, as the spirits if just men made perfect (that is) de cased, they cannot si [...], nor the men when their spirits and bodies shall [...] rea [...] ­te [...] in the re [...]ion, but none are so [...] born of God here. 2. So far as ary man is born of God he sins not, or commits not sin, [...] can. 2. VVh [...]ever believeth with his heart that Jesus is the Christ, doth not, nor can, together with the exercise of that saith, walk in [...] way of sin, and so willingly do iniquity and sin, nor shall miss of his end.

Note, VVhereas G. W. with s [...]me of his party coming on the Lords [...]y into the Congregation after Sermon offered to speak; to which he was permitted [...]y I.H. as conceiving he might have somthing to say in defence of him­self (which the said J. H. was willing to have answered him in, had it been s [...]) but G. W. was [...] suffered by some that had power in that place. And whereas the said I. H. since [...] informed that G. W. said to the pe [...], that he the said George had nothing to say to the said J. H. but only a VVord from the Lord to the people; [...] some of his party rail and revise at the people for not suffering him to speak it, or [...] hearing of it, casting that as a reproach upon the Ministry: J.H. doth declare that he judges it well done of those [...] to suffer the said G. W. to utter his pretended word from the Lord, & that [...] as well [...] the people [...] [...] hear it; not should J. H. willingly have permitted him to speak to the people any [...] VV [...]rd, unless he had first acknow­ledged that he had been formerly and hitherto in a deceit, and [...] of it. For [...] been but two days before proved a Deceiver, and such a one as people [...], had he been permitted to speak in such a way of Doctrine to the people; he might well have said that we went contrary to our principles in suf­fering him to speak, and the people to hear him wh [...]m so little a time [...] had charged to be such a one as ought not to be heard, and should people beleeve that God will send any VVord by [...] a man [...] a Deceiver, and they should count accursed, unless to convince him of, and so to [...] him a knowledg the evil of his former way, be­ing thereof convinced; we shall do evil therefore if hereafter we any of us per [...]t him to speak (and much more) if we hear and listen to him or any of them in such way of Doctrine.

Be still all people and wait upon God, mind his Gospel, and believe and [...]bey it, [...] be saved, but as for this people the Quakers unless they see and turn from their evil w [...]y, Gods hand will be against them, though they he proud at Moab, their lies shall not be so, they shall not prosper, their [...] rottenness, and shall be dryed up, and perish, their corruption and folly is seen and made manifest in good [...], and shall be more, [...] season [...] For the King (Christ) shall rejoyce and God, and every one that [...] confesseth) him shall [...] but [...] mouth of them that speak lies shall be stopped, Psal 63.10. every word of God is pu [...]e and shall be performed [...] its season: Let them alone (neither abuse them with incivilities, nor listen to their corrupt sayings) [...] blinde leaders of the blinde, and both they that lead, and they that are led by them shall fall into the dit [...]h, Mar. 15.14. Depart I pray you from the tents or societies of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs [...] nothing to do with their sayings and witnessings) least ye be consumed in all their sins, Numb. 14.16.

FINIS.

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