Mysterious cloudes and mistes, shunning the cleer light, a little further disclosed in a short answer to Mr. John Simpsons long appendix, entituled, Truth breaking forth through a cloud and mist of slanders, wherein the charge of slander, so far as it concerneth, both himself and some others, is taken of and removed / by Tho. Gataker ...

Mysterious cloudes and mistes, shunning the cleer light, a little further disclosed in a short answer to Mr. John Simpsons long appendix, entituled, Truth breaking forth through a cloud and mist of slanders, wherein the charge of slander, so far as it concerneth, both himself and some others, is taken of and removed / by Tho. Gataker ...

Table of contents

Title page

To Mr. JOHN SIMPSON.

§

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To Mr. JOHN SIMPSON.

SIR,

I Intend not to be over-long with you. My purpose is not to enter into dispute, about what you now professe to hold, or not hold; or to examine how far forth your at present professed tenents are agreeable to truth: (I have work of more weight to take up my time, that, in regard of my present infirmity, hangeth heavy on my hand) but to cleare my selfe only, from such imputations as you have been pleased, in your late Appendix, to cast upon me; as having raised pag. 1. a mist, and cloud of slanders, committed pag. 60. great and horrid sin, and used pag. 62. reproachfull, and railing speeches, against you.

For answer whereunto, when I shall have but simply and plainly related what concerning you, I have delivered, and on what ground; I suppose the hainousnesse, and horridnesse of this hideous charge, will with any indifferent Reader be much allayed; yea, I hope, your charge it selfe, will appeare to be groundlesse, and unjust.

I shall rank the heads of it, in that order, wherein your selfe have laid them down.

The first error, you say, that is charged upon you, is, that the morall Law is of no use at all to a beleever; no rule for him to walk, nor to examine his life, by; and that Christians are free from the mandatory power of it.

Concerning this I say only, that Preface to Gods ey on his Israel. p. 17.18. it was at a publike hearing before a Committee of the house of Commons, in the Star-chamber, by sufficient witnesses, proved to have been delivered by some of the three, that were there convented, and in particular, by Mr. Randall, and Mr. Simson. nor did I publish this, untill I had procured a view of the Papers of the worthy Chaire-man of that Honourable Committee, out of which, word for word, I transcribed the same. And if it be a wrong to divulge, what, in open Court, in a judiciary hearing, hath publikely past, I must then confesse that herein I have wronged Mr. S. otherwise not: for that is all, that herein I report Nor doth Mr. S. himselfe deny what I herein assert.

[Page]Only two evasions he hath, not to refell my report; but to wipe that of from himselfe, which he is, it may well be, now in part ashamed of.

The former is, that pag. 1. some did either through ignorance, misapprehend, or through malice misreport, what he had delivered; and that to clear himself concerning the first branch of it, he had in a Sermon at Algate, taught the contrary▪ as for p. 3. the other three, he can either affirme, or deny them all.

And indeed it hath been wel-observed formerly concerning divers, who have taught about this City, wherein people, Athenian-like, too much affect novelties, that endeavouring to draw Disciples after them, by broaching of new-fangled fancies, they have been wont to deliver their tenents in such ambiguous termes, that albeit their followers acquainted with their canting language, understood what they intended in them; yet they might, by some colourable glosses, and nice distinctions newly-minted, make them seem to be no other, then what the sound, and Orthodox held.

But suppose Mr. S. have in part since preached the contrary, to what hee was then charged with; and that the rest of it, he can either say, or unsay, as he pleaseth; yet what is all this to that, which was then charged upon him, or by witnesse proved against him? which is all that I relate: and if it be well weighed, may come neerer home to what he now saith then himself taketh notice of. howsoever, it is no other to a tittle, then mine originall exhibiteth.

And if Mr. S. can, as he saith he can, averre the three latter; I see not, why he should stick much at the first: since that it can hardly be conceived, what speciall use, the Law morall should have in regard of a beleever, that may not be referred unto, and comprised under, one of those three.

But this latter evasion it may be, will stand him in better stead: and it is indeed of larger extent then the former, either charge or defence: for therein, he chargeth not me alone now, but the Honourable Committee, who had the whole managing of the businesse, and his brethren, (as he is pleased yet to terme them) that by Order attended the Committee there. For he telleth his Reader,p. 52. that if this liberty had beene granted unto him, that his tenants might have beene received from himselfe, before he were censured for them, it might have prevented many reproaches, which he hath laine under, and many sins in those, who have rashly censured him· But withall insinuates that he was there, and then dealt with, as was John Husse, at the Councell of Constance, by the outragiousnesse of that Councell; p. 53. so many interrupting him at every word, and some mocking, and making mouthes at him, that it was impossible for him, to make a perfect answer to any thing: and in like manner, that when he endeavoured to acquaint the Committee fully concerning his mind, he was so interrupted, (and why added he not mocked, and mouthed, to?) that it was impossible for any man to know his mind, and judgement: and that it was frequently added by the brethren, (as if they had the managing of the businesse, and not the Committee) that, that day was a day, wherein he was to heare the charge against him, and that there would be a day appointed, wherein he should have liberty to bring in his answer to the Committee; but that such a day is not yet to be found, nor, as he further intimates, is like to be, untill Astraea (an heathen Goddesse) come down from heaven (where, but by poeticall fiction, she ne [...]er was) to doe justice to the oppressed.

[Page]Concerning which, I shall take a little more pains, then I desired to doe, for the clearing of the Committee, as well, as my self. Mr. S. therefore here so telleth his own tale, that those, who were not acquainted with the proceedings of the Committee, might conceive the carriage of the businesse to have beene such, as that he, and his complices there, had but one day of appearance, and on that day, they had their charge only given them, unto which, they were not suffered to return answer, to any purpose: for that if they spake ought to that purpose, they were interrupted, if not farre worse dealt with; and told that they should have another day for answer. Whereas indeed it is well known, that they had not, one, or two alone; but many dayes of hearing. Yea, that at their first appearing, before any charge formally entred, or proceeding to examination of witnesses, they were by the Committee entreated to deliver their minds in writing, for the better clearing of themselves, concerning such points, as were suggested, to have been either taught or maintained by some of them, or to go for currant among their followers; that so the businesse might be, in a fair, and friendly way (if it were possible) composed, without proceeding in any such judiciary course. But this they utterly at first, refused to doe; nor without much urging, and pressing by the Committee, could be induced, at length, to condescend unto. And when they had, by such importunity, been drawn to undertake it; and a day assigned them, to bring in their answer; how willing, or desirous they were, to clear what they had taught, or to make manifest, what their mind, and judgement was, may appear, by their answers returned to some of the Questions, in writing delivered unto them; which out of the Copies remaining in the worthy Chairmans hands, I shall here word for word, insert.

Question. 1. Whether the morall Law did oblige a beleeving Iew to obedience?

Answer. That the beleeving Iew, before Christ, (if any such one was meant) was kept under the Law, shut up unto the faith, that should after be revealed. Gal. 3.23.

Quest. 2. Whether the morall Law doth now, as strongly oblige a beleeving Christian to obedience?

Answ. That the beleeving Christian, after Christs death (if any such one be meant) is not under the Law, but under grace. Ro. 6.14.

Quest. 3. Whether a beleever be bound to conform his life to the morall Law; because God in that Law requires it?

Answ. That the righteousnesse of the Law is fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh; but after the spirit. Rom. 8.4. I through the Law, am dead to the Law, that I may live unto God. Gal. 2.19.

Quest. 4. Whether he that maketh the Law his Rule; be a Papist in heart, whatever he be in practise?

Answ. That though the Law be an eternall Rule of righteousnesse; yet he that putteth himself under it contrary to Paul, is so farre a Papist.

Quest. 5. Whether the Law be a Rule, by which unbeleevers shall be condemned, and not a Rule, by which they ought to walk?

Answ. The Law abstracted from Christ, is no Rule, for unbeleevers to walk by, for life.

Quest. 6. Whether a beleever may make threatnings a motive to deterre him from sin; and the promises a motive to encourage him to duty?

[Page]Ans. That to serve God for the hope of a legall reward, and for fear of legall punishment, is no Christian service: or, in Mr. Tindalls words, That to serve God, for fear of hell; or the joyes of heaven, are but shadows of good works.

Quest. 7. Whether Peters person sinned in denying Christ; or his flesh only?

Ans. That as it was in Paul; so in Peter: No longer I, but sin, that dwelleth in me. Rom. 7.17.

Quest. 8. Whether a beleever in sinning, breaks any morall Law?

Ans. Sinne is the transgression of the Law. 1 Joh. 3.4.

Quest. 9. Whether when Peter wept bitterly for denying Christ, he did it out of weaknesse of faith, or duty to God?

Answ. Peters weeping might be from weak faith, and so from fear; or, from strong faith, and so from love: but whether, we know not, only we hope it was an Evangelicall duty·

Quest. 10. Whether a beleever be as well pleasing to God, in the act of adultery, or murder, as before?

Quest. 11. Whether a beleever in the act of adultery, or murder, may see the discharge of that sin in Christ, and his part in Christ, before his repentance, and humiliation for it, as well as after all the humiliation in the world?

Ans. 1. They are framed in very odious, and ambiguous terms. 2. That a true beleever seldome, or never falls into such wilfull, scandalous wickednesse; because the love of Christ constrains him far above all legall motives. 3. That if perhaps a beleever should fall so; yet ought he not to adde infidelity to this other sinne.

Quest. 12. Whether a beleever in the act of adultery, or murder, may enjoy as sweet communion with God, as in the performance of any holy duty?

Ans. That the repetition of it, is unfit for any Christian mouth, and eare.

Quest. 13. Whether God doth chasten a beleever for sin?

Ans. That the chastisement of our peace was upon him, that is, Christ; and that by his stripes we are healed. Esay. 53.5.

Quest. 14. Whether a beleever falling into sinne, ought not to pray for the actuall pardon of it, in the sight of God, or only for the manifestation of it, to his own conscience, and the continuation of it?

Ans. That when it shall be explained to us out of the Scripture, what is meant by actuall pardon; and what by the sight of God, then shall we be better able to answer to this proposition.

Quest. 15. Whether there ought to be dayes of fasting and humiliation appointed under the Gospell?

Ans. We know nothing to the contrary.

Quest. 16. Whether a Christian ought to afflict his soul, with sorrow for sin, in a day of humiliation, and whether it be sin to sorrow for sinne?

Ans. That all humiliation, and sorrow for sin, which is not of faith, is sin.

Quest. 17. Whether a beleever humbling himself for sin, in these sad dayes, seeking Gods face, and returning unto him, may not expect a blessing from God, and the Nation for Christs sake in so doing, and whether the doing of these duties for this end, be the cause why our fasting, and Prayer prevailes no more with God, for the healing of the land?

Ans. That although a man pretend to humble himself; yet if he make his humiliation,[Page]repentance, and reformation, a fortresse, and tower of defence, the munition, armour, and wall of brasse, to defend the Kingdome, and Nation; if he makes his repentance of such omnipotent efficacy, that there is no thunder-bolt so great; no wrath so furious in God; but it will abolish it, without so much, as mentioning the Lord Iesus, who only delivereth us, from the wrath to come, who if he had not delivered us from the desert of the sinfulnesse of our humiliation, repentance, and reformation, the just wages thereof would have been everlasting fire: we beleeve such humiliation, is neerer the pride of Lucifer, then true Christian humiliation. 2. That among the great sinnes of the Kingdome, we beleeve, that the great esteem, dignifying, and exalting of our own works, doings, and duties, to make our peace with God, is a dethroning our great, and only peace-maker, and thereby a most dangerous enemy to the peace of this Kingdome.

Now, besides that from some of these Questions, it may be observed, what wholesome and savoury documents their followers (at least) deduce from the tenents by these men maintained; to let (I say) that passe; let any intelligent, and indifferent reader judge by most of their Answers, whether these men desired to have men know their mind and judgement; as this man pretendeth, that his desire, and endeavour was to have done, but that he was so interrupted, that it was not possible for him so to do. Sure in writing there was no body to interrupt him, or them: and Mr. S. himself, being the principall spokesman among them, was by some of the brethren in an orderly manner disputed with, without any such interruption, as he here complaineth of; and was often also afterward heard at large. Nor was there proceeding to any hearing of witnesses, untill they had refused to give more clear, and satisfactory answer, unto these, and some other of the Questions, delivered unto them: for unto many of them, they returned no answer at all. And if this mans mind therefore were not then fully made known (as he pretends) concerning those points: himself was in fault; in whose power, and at whose choise it was, to have fully in writing expressed the same, had he been minded so to doe: mean while, that he had so taught, as in the charge is related, was then, and there averred; nor any exceptions taken unto those, that witnessed the same.

These things then, so transacted at a publike hearing, and such points charged upon, and testified against, Mr. S. to have been delivered by him, which himself cannot gain-say: I suppose it to have been no p. 17. breach of charity (as hee chargeth it) to deem, that Preface to Gods ey, &c. p. 17. from thence, those exclamations of his might well proceed; away with the Law, away with the Law: as also that horrid speech, (so I term it again, and still shall do, whatsoever colours Mr. S. shall please to varnish it over with, thereby to smooth, or smoother the horridnesse of it) The Law cutteth of a mans leggs, and then biddeth him walk: which whether it be fitly paralleled p. 28.30. with those passages of the Apostle; Rom. 7.5. The motions of sinne, which were by the Law; and 2 Cor. 3.6. The letter killeth: or, whether it do not justly deserve such an Epithet, I shall leave to any pious, and impartiall Christian to determine: for the speeches themselves are not denyed. And as for some p. 18. harsh expressions of Luther concerning the Law; as the like also concerning Christ; which in overmuch heat of passion, seem to have fallen from him; and I would rather men should read in the writings of Mr. S. and others of his way and strain, then hear [Page] from me; I suppose men moderately minded will hardly justifie them; muchlesse take liberty to themselves therein to imitate him, and yet further muchlesse to forge others thereby far harsher then those of his.

The next matte of charge against Mr. S. was, that he should teach, Preface to Gods ey, &c. [...]. 18. That God doth not chastise any of his children for sinne, nor is it for the sins of Gods people that the Land is punished.

Whereunto might further have been added, that presumptuous speech of his in open Court, then confidently uttred; whereof my self was an ear-witnesse. That he did not beleeve, that any sinne of his own, or of any beleever, had any hand in the procuring of the judgements of God, then upon the Land.

As also what in a paper was given in by him, under his own hand, conteining the heads of a Sermon Preached at Algate, at the giving, and taking of the Covenant (occasioned it seems by that Question among others propounded; whether a beleever may lawfully take the Covenant, as it reqireth his confessing his sins, deserving the calamities, and judgements, that now ly upon the Nation?) in these words.

I did professe, that J thought what I had taught was a truth, That nationall punishments do not come upon a Land, or Nation, for those sins, for which Gods justice is satisfied in Christ.

Now concerning this, which he cannot deny, and yet would fain salv; he maketh answer, that p. 34. some few weeks, for want of experimentall knowledge, he was a little clouded in his spirit, concerning the doctrine of affliction; but that his mistake was never charged upon him, by his accusers: (which riddle of his, what it means, I cannot arread) and that Ibid. yet in his darkest, and most cloudy discourses, he held forth enough to charitable and loving hearers, to free him from this charge.

He might better have said, that by these, and the like assertions, he staved people of, and kept them aloof, such especially as were forward to rank themselvs, among the number of beleevers, from deeming their sins to have any hand in the procurement of Gods judgements upon the state, and from being humbled in that regard, in the sight of God for the same.

Sure when he appeared in the Star-chamber, he was far enough from holding out that, that might free him, from the charge: belike his appearance there, was within the compasse of those few weeks, during which his spirit was under the cloud, he speaks of. And yet by From p. 36. to p. 43. a long lacinious discourse, to shew either the subtilty, or sublimity of his wit, in being able to argu either way, he would make men beleev, that he taught nothing then, but what he holds now, though he professeth now to have attained p. 34. a more cleer and truly spirituall knowledge of the point.

And herein he seems to resemble H. Cl. one, that living sometime in the City, did preach publikely, that the plague was not infectious; who being convented before autority, and qestioned for such his doctrine, his answer was, that he denied not, but that the plague-sores, or blains might be infectious; but his meaning was, that the stroke of Gods Angel was not infectious. But as his doctrin, so delivered, whatsoever his reserved meaning was, did encourage people to repair over-boldly to those that were visited, and that, as was then deemed, to the [Page] damage, yea, and death, of not a few: So it may justly be feared, that these cloudy, or rather peremptory assertions of Mr. S. have endamaged, and endangered soules, not a few, in with-holding them from serious humiliation for their sins, under the hand of God, as wel upon themselvs in particular, as upon the land in generall; notwithstanding these his distinctions, which he cometh out with now; but not heard of then, when this charge, was given in against him: at which time, it seemed to be grounded upon Gods not sight of sin in any Beleever, the principall subject of Mr Eatons book, then justified among them; else what reason should there be of Gods not inflicting evills nationall, more then personall upon any, in regard of sins satisfied for by Christ, in both which p. 42. himself makes the case to be all one.

Mean while, what hath bin affirmed, is not here removed, that this position, in both branches of it, was by witnesses produced, proved to have bin delivered by Mr S. which is as much as I avert.

The like may be said of the next Point; to wit,

Preface to Gods eye, &c. p 18. That if a man by the Spirit, known himself to be in the state of grace, though he be drunk, or commit murder, God sees no sin in him

To this Mr S, saith nothing, but that p. 43. if he should name the party, that gave this in against him, it would be enough to acq [...]t him, in the judgement of those, that know him. But that p. 44. for the substance of it (setting aside some words put in to bring an odium upon it,) to wit, that God seeth no sin in his justified children, it is Gods truth, which he hopeth to maintain unto death. And I hope then it was no fault, either for that party, whoever he was, to charge it upon him; though those terms (which whether Mr S. instanced in, or no, is not much materiall) might, if he did not, have bin spared: nor for me to relate what was then alledged.

Mean while, he that now acknowledgeth it, to be p. 50. a gr [...]ss error, and destructive to the power of godlines, to maintain, that God in no sense, may be said to see sin in his people; having yet in those terms, (which he now here acknowledgeth,) taught it; knowing it to be so in Mr Eatons book maintained, and yet joyning with those, that had bin publishers, and were then defenders of it, and the subject matter therein conteined; nor at all, manifesting his dissent therein from them, which by writing he might have done, had he bin so minded; he hath no cause to complain, if it were so charged upon him, as it was then taught, and had bin delivered by him: these instances inserted, not at all altering, or concerning the state of the Question: and that the rather; for that some of his followers (whom, why I so term, I shall hereafter shew) have in that manner, which he now would seem to condemn, maintained it. And let Mr S seriously consider with himself, whether his delivering his tenent in such terms, having bin by his Auditors so apprehended, have not given divers of them occasion to take the more liberty to sin, upon that conceit, that though they do commit sins never so heinous, or horrid, God doth not at all see it; not is at all offended, or displeased with them, for the same.

The nex [...] charge is w [...]th much vehemency prosecu [...]ed, to wi [...], where I say, that Gods eye on his Israel. p. 25. those grosly abuse the words of the Psalmist, Psal. 40.12. who taking their rise from [Page] Luthers application of them, with some harsh expressions unto Christ, strain them so far, as to disswade Christian people from troubling of themselves about confession of their sins, as being enough, for them to beleev, that Christ have hath confessed them for them already, against the latter clause whereof, to wit, enough for them to beleev that Christ hath here confessed them for them already, in my margent, I name Mr S. preaching on that Text.

From which aspersion to clear himself, he affirmeth,

1. p. 57. That he tooke not his rise for the exposition of the place from Luther, whose exposition thereof, be had not then seen.

2. p. 57.58. That the Apostle expoundeth that Psalm of Christ; and other Autors of good note expound that passage of sins imputed unto Christ.

3. That p. 58. I would make my Reader beleev, that upon this account, he would wholy take away confession, which he denyeth; and p. 56. is able, he saith, to prove the contrary, by the testimony of many godly, who then heard him, and would be deposed thereupon; and p. 58.59. that the maine use of his sermon was to teach beleevers, how they should in an evangelicall way confesse sin, ever the head of the Scape-goat, Lev. 16.21. in faith, beholding them laid, and charged upon Jesus Christ; in which we do confesse, and acknowledge to the glory of Gods grace, and Christs goodnesse, that our sins are laid upon Jesus Christ.

4. That p. 59. about the same time, be preached in divers places, on 1 Joh. 1.9. which Sermons might shew, that he is not against confession of sin.

To all which I answer,

1. That I charge not him in particular, with taking the rise of his doctrine, therein, from Luthers harsh expressions. There are others, that so do, whom in those words I intended.

2. Nor do I control those, that understand either the Psalm of Christ, or that passage, of our sins impured unto Christ; tho I rather approve of another interpretation; which I there propound.

3. Nor do I charge him, that he would wholy take away confession of sin, which Mr Eaton himself doth not: but that herein he concurreth with him, and some others, in affirming that Christ there confesseth our sins for us: and thereupon taking away all necessity of confessing our sins, in such manner, as the faithfull Saints and servants of God, in Scripture ordinarily do, as incensing Gods wrath against us, under which we do lie, as Psa. 32.3, 4, 5. David (though a beleever, and a person justified in Gods sight) did, untill we do make sincere, and serious acknowledgment of them.

4. And this being still constantly avowed by persons religious, and judicious, who then heard him, is no way removed, or contradicted by that which be here relateth to have bin the main use of his Sermon: and all which I doubt not, but that, Mr Eaton himself, were he yet surviving, would readily subscribe unto.

Nor do I make any question but that those two parties, who pronounce, the one of them I. Saltmarsh of Free Grace. p. 271. such beleivers, to be but poore melancholie creatures, as are much troubled for new sins, supposing God to be angry with them for the same; the other, that it is Earburie. See Oxford Account p. 36. a signe of the spirit of Antichrist in persons, to be afraid of this sin, and of that sin; and consequently of any sin; yet would either of them owne the confession [Page] that Mr S. here speakes of, and p. 59. telleth us, is the best confession: to wit, whereby we confes that our sins are laid upon Christ. Neither is this that confession that Psal. 32.5, & 51.3, 4. David, and other Ezr. 9.6.15. & 10.1.10.11. Nehem. 9. Dan. 9. men of God, made of their sins, recorded in the word; nor that which the word of God under that term and title of confession Prov. 28.13. Jer. 3 13. 1 John. 1.9· requireth of us; but an acknowledgement of them, as offences committed by us against God, and our sincere and serious sorrow for the same. Neither would the confessi [...]n Levit. 16.216 p. 59. made over the head of the Scape-goat, ever have availed any, unles it were accompanied, with inward remorse and contrition of spirit, as Psal. 51.3, 17. Davids and that of those oth [...]r servants of God was. And all this therefore is but the crying up one necessary duty, for the crying downe and suppressing of an other.

But the p. 60. great and horrid sin, that he would not have me forget to confesse, is the charging of him, for exhorting people to sinne, as fast as they will, (because there is a fountain for them to wash in.) Whereunto he addeth, that he doth think that if ibid the Devill himself should get up into a pulpit to preach, (who doth often preach by his Vicars and Curates) (he might have added, no lesse often by Schismaticks and Sectaries,) that he would not make use of any such exhortation.

The words, upon occasion whereof, this hideous tragedy is raised, are these; subjoyned to a relation of six severall tenents charged upon, and proved against those three, that appeared in Star-chamber before the Committee fore-mentioned, whereof Mr S. was one; and particularly that out of Mr Eaton then objected to them, and defended, that when Abraham denied his wife, and in outward appearance seemed to lie in his distrust, lying, dissembling, and equivocating, that his wife was his sister, even then truly all his thoughts, words, and deeds were perfectly holy, and righteous from all spot of sin, in the fight of God freely.

Preface to Gods eye, &c. p. 18. To which may be added that wholesome exhortation, then also averred, to have been delivered by one of them likewise in the Pulpit, which might posse for an use of the point, Let beleivers sin as fast as they will, there is a fountaine open for them to wash in.

Concerning which he granteth, that p. 61. this was brought in against him, that he should in a Sermon deliver those words just in the same terms, as I have related them, not as he now cutteth them asunder in relating of my relation; nor doth he deny the uttering of them.

Only he addeth that ibid. the party that gave it in, being by some (I know not who, nor when) demanded, whether he did deliver it, by way of exhortation, was so ingenuous as to acknowledge, that it was not delivered as an exhortation.

Then to justifie the matter,

1. p. 61. He paralleleth it, with those passages, Rev. 22.11. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still, and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still.

2. He telleth me, that p. 62. my learning might have taught me, that the word Let, is not alwayes used by way of exhortation; but sometime by way of supposition, and frequently signifieth as much as though, and ibid. so taken, it is as seasonable a truth as he can in desire of my good, leave upon my spirit; who though professing my self a beleiver, have sinned, as fast as I can, in his apprehension, against the laws of love, and the commandements of the Lord Jesus; yet there is a fountaine opened, in which if God give faith, I may wash my selfe from these sins.

[Page]To all which sore charge, and slight apologie, I answer,

1. That the speech it self, whether delivered in way of exhortation, or inference, (and one of the two it must needs be) doth savour too strongly of an incitation, and encouragement to sin, and that wilfully; which was all that in the term to exhortation, I intended.

2. That if the thing it selfe be so hideous, that if the Devil himselfe should preach, he would not make use of such an exhortation; and yet by his own grant, the words may be so taken; then those surely have just cause to [...]ake shame to themselves, who use expressions in the Pulpit, trenching so neer upon that, which is so hideous, that even the Devill himself would not so use; that they cannot without some subtile nicety be distinguished the one from the other.

3. That to draw Scriptures thus in, as here, and before, to parallel, and bear out such speeches, as both that before, and th [...]s here, are, is to play, and dally with Gods word, and to be boulder with it, then Christian piety will well permit.

4. That it is a poore shift to help out such a loose speech, to tell us, that let is not alwayes a note of exhortation, when as the matter of the proposition, and manner of the conceiving it in those terms, sin as fast as they will, sound overmuch, and over loud, in any ordinary construction, to an incitement to willfull sin, for which, the though substitute in the room of let, is but a very sorry salv.

As for this application of it to my self, that I have sinned, as fast, as I can, in his appr [...]hension, and yet if God give me faith, I may wash my self from these sins. I take the former branch as a fruit of his own selfish fancy, and the latter, as a frothy flout, and so leav them to him; and this whole apology for my self, to the cen [...]ure of those that are of understanding, and abili [...]y, to discry, and discover the slights of imposters, th [...]ough such colours, as they are wont to glase over their unsound tenents withall; and their shifts, in varying from point to point, as they find the bl [...]st of popular appl [...]use to blow.

And now Sir, I addresse my self again unto you, who that you may seem, not without cause to have laid such a load of sin upon me, that I could not possibly, in your apprehension sin faster then I have done, against the Laws of love, and the commandments [...]f Christ; in the close of this your discourse, tel your Reader, p. 62. it might be exp [...]ted, you should speake somewhat to my reproaches, and railing speeches agai [...]st you; but we know, you say, who hath said, men have learned to reproach me, and speak evill of me, and I to suffer.

Sir, what reproachfull and railing speeches, other have suffered, not some one, or two; but the maine body of Gods faithfull Ministers, and Messengers among us, from the mouths, and pens of those of that faction, which you have formerly adheared to, and complyed with, is too well known; and I have at large Preface to Gods eye, &c. p. 10.13. else where, discovered But Sir, where are those reproachfull, and railing speeches, that you here charge me to have used against you? or why do you not produce them; or point, at least, to the places, where they are to be found? you have raked, and scraped together all to a tittle, for ought I know, or can call to [Page] minde, that I have any where written of you; what railings appear there, in any part of it? or who is able to say, that I ever railed upon you, either in publique, or in private? Sir, it is none of my usage: what yours is, I wot not. This charge of yours therefore, I am well assured, you are lesse able to make good, then I am all, that hath bin by me charged upon you.

For such erroneous points, as have bin broached by you, and others, if I have maintained the truth of God against you, or them, and discovered the evill consequents of them, I have therein done no more, then what my duty to God, and his people, hath in my place required of me: and that the rather, for that I perceived divers of my people to be too much taken with them. For your self, the time was, when having heard you, once, or twice in my place, and upon invitation of you home, had some conference with you; I tooke so good liking of you, that not long after motion being made for a weekely lecture in my congregation, I recommended you, to some of my people, that were most active in the businesse, who upon enquiry enformed me, that y [...]u were like to settle, either at Dunstans, or Butolphs, whether of the two, I now remember not: and so that businesse was at an end. Some good space of time after, I heard, by reports of many, some of mine own people, among others, who used to hear you; that you were fallen into divers strange points, tending to Antinomianism; and that some of my Congregation, women especially, were, by hearing of you, therewith infected: that which afterward appeared to be no false report, or groundlesse surmise, but a truth. For there repared to me one day, two women of your Auditors, living under my charge, who were earnest with me, to have use of my Church, for a day of solemn humiliation; affirming that they would bring none, but Ministers to perform the duties of the day. Demand being made, who the Ministers were; the answer was, Mr: Simson, and Mr. Randal. why those? because I had received some aspersions against Mr. Simson, (I give you their words,) which he would take off. What aspersions? I had confuted some of his points, what points, or point? I had taught that sanctification was an evidence of justification. and did he hold, and teach the contrary? yea, and that which he had taught therein, was the truth, to wit, that sanctification was no sure evidence of justification; that which according to their weak ability, they endeavoured stifly to maintain. In conclusion, I answered them, that if it were so, you should not, with my consent, come into my Pulpit, by the leavening of my people, to make me work, for the unleavening of them againe. They told me plainely, if they could not have you in publike, they would have you in private; and so I was after told they had. Now true it is, that I had handled that point a little before purposely, upon occasion of another, that had neerer at hand, fallen upon that argument, and used some reproachfull terms, concerning that evidence, nothing minding Mr S. But Sir hence it appeares, what by your hearers acknowledgement, you then taught; and that by your such teaching, whatsoever you now hold, or pretend to hold, people were then tainted, and some of mine own, among others; (for I presume they were not here in alone,) who continue still stif both in this erroneous conceit, and in that other, which you now so deepely brand, concerning Gods not seeing sin at all in his Saints, which [Page] is not unlikely they sucked then together with the former, from Mr Randall, and your self, whom they constantly followed.

But Sir, if I had so exceedingly wronged you, as you here pretend; and used such reproachfull, and railing language, as you here intimate, against you; I marvel much, what the reason should be, that I never heard ought of it, all this while before, from you: which had bin no difficult matter, for you, to have done, either by word of mouth, or by a few lines in writing; you being not ignorant of the place of my constant abode, whereunto by a continued state of infirmity, I have bin confined, now almost these three years. That which yet I should not have mentioned, save in regard of some reports that have bin cast abroad, whether coming from your self, or no, I know not. It is not long since, I suppose, about a twelv-moneth past, that one of my people repairing to me, as▪ from your self, acquainted me with your willingnes, to bestow your paines, some Lords day, with me, if I would give way to it. I told him, I thought it, not so safe for me so to doe; in regard of those erroneous opinions that you had bin charged with, and had not cleared your selfe of. He replyed, that you now acknowledged your judgement in those points to be altered. I told him again, that if your judgement were altered, from what formerly you had hold; you might do well to make it publikely known, thereby to undeceiv those, who had formerly bin misled by you: but that you should so prefesse, did to me seem very strange: for that within some few daies before, I had bin informed by a Gentlewoman of good credit, that it was reported by a Minister, then about the City, (one in whose Lecture, at great All-halows, if I mistake not, you succeeded,) as from your self, that you had bin with me, and made it appeare unto me, that I had wronged you, in charging you with what you had not held. Now Sir, whether both these▪ or either of them, came from yourself, or no, (the latter whereof, for the subject matter of it, I am sure, is untru) your self best know. I relate them both as they came to me; wishing that the former of them, may be tru, and that God will be pleased to give you a right understanding in all things.

Thus, Sir, I have done with you, and your charge against me, not intending to waste further time about this busines, which (in regard of other more important employment, formerly hinted) both is, and will be very precious with me: but to leav and referre what I have here said, to the consideration, and construction of others, thereof to deem, and upon advised perusall to determine, whether I have attracted such hainous, and horrid guilt, or no, as you herein charge upon me, by ought that concerning you, and your teaching, I have any where published.

And if it be demanded, why this Apology came no sooner abroad, since, that being so short, it might suddenly have bin dispatched; the reason is, because by occasion of mine other hard task, (the one half whereof, I had not as yet overcome, by reason of a long continued, and late renewed infirmity, being therein much retarded, and was loth therefore to filch time from for any other, not very necessary, by-busines, before I saw so much at least of it accomplished) I had not leasure, so much, as to survey your charge against [Page] me; nor was afterward able to returne so full answer thereunto, untill I had a view of some papers, concerning that busines of publike hearing; whereof, by reason of disability to stir far abroad, I could not procure either fight, or transcript, but by others.

To conclude all, Sir, I shall beseech you, in the fear of God, advisedly to consider with your self, what multitudes of people, have of late bin drawn aaside, into gross, and pernicious errors, by those, whom you have sometime consorted, and complyed with; and by your self, in likelyhood, not a few (as some of them profess it) among the rest: that you may be seriously humbled in the sight of God, for what of this kind, you have formerly failed, and faulted in; sincerely to his glory acknowledge your former oversights therein; discreetly, and prudently, for time to come, forbear such expressions, as may in ordinary apprehension, tend to the fomenting of liberty to sin, and loosnes of life; and piously prosecute the pressing upon all sorts, the practice of repentance, which God by his judgements present upon us, doth so incestantly, and so instantly call upon us for; and that duty, which God in his Law reqireth of them, and whereunto in regard of Creation, as wel, as of redemption, they ought to hold themselvs stil obliged: that so you may, if it be possible, (which with some peradventure yet, is never like to be;) but that you may at least, do what in you lieth, to reduce those, whom you have formerly turned out of the way, and caused to stumble at Gods Law. By so doing, you will gain more sound peace, and solid comfort in the end, then by complying with the humors of people, unstable, and unsetled, (of whose mutability, and inconstancy I doubt not, but that you have had, or seen some experience your self) you shall be ever able to attain. The Lord be with you, and vouchsafe unto you, and us all, spirituall wisdome to carry our selvs aright, and uprightly in all things, to the honour of his grace in us, and truth professed by us; the preserving, and building up of his people, in either; the faithfull discharge of our duty here, and eternall welfare, for, and with our blessed Saviour hereafter. Amen.

FINIS.

§

§

[Page]

[Page]

MYSTERIOUS CLOUDES AND MISTES, Shunning the Cleer Light, a little further disclosed, in a short Answer to Mr. JOHN SIMPSONS long Appendix, Entituled, Truth breaking forth through a Cloud and Mist of Slanders: Wherein the Charge of Slander, so far as it concerneth, both himself and some others, is taken of and removed

By THO. GATAKER B. of D. and Pastor of Rotherhith.

LONDON, Printed by E. Griffin, and are to be sold by Fulke Clifton, on Fish-street Hill, under Saint Margarets-Church. 1648.

§

§

Imprimatur,

James Cranford.

Iuly. 22. 1648.

Information about this book

Title statement

Mysterious cloudes and mistes, shunning the cleer light, a little further disclosed in a short answer to Mr. John Simpsons long appendix, entituled, Truth breaking forth through a cloud and mist of slanders, wherein the charge of slander, so far as it concerneth, both himself and some others, is taken of and removed / by Tho. Gataker ...

Gataker, Thomas, 1574-1654.

Edition statement

1648

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Publisher

Text Creation Partnership,

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Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) :

Date

2007-01 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1).

ID [DLPS]

A42464

ID [STC]

Wing G324

ID [STC]

ESTC R21793

ID [EEBO-CITATION]

12260914

ID [OCLC]

ocm 12260914

ID [VID]

57885

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Early English books online.

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(EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A42464)

Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 57885)

Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 916:2)

Source

— Mysterious cloudes and mistes, shunning the cleer light, a little further disclosed in a short answer to Mr. John Simpsons long appendix, entituled, Truth breaking forth through a cloud and mist of slanders, wherein the charge of slander, so far as it concerneth, both himself and some others, is taken of and removed / by Tho. Gataker ..., Gataker, Thomas, 1574-1654..

Extent

[2], 13 p.

Printed by E. Griffin, and are to be sold by Fulke Clifton ...,. London :: 1648.. (Reproduction of original in Cambridge University Library.)

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