OUR first Conversation and Discourse having pro­duced what you see, it happen'd that the diversity of Judgements, which was past upon it, has been the subject Matter of this second, in which I said, that the Censors of my writing were divided into two Classes, viz. into those who condemned the Matter and the Publica­tion of it, and into them, who highly approved of both, but they would rather I had more enlarged my self upon some Considerations to bring the Parliament to the re-uniting of Conformists and Non-Conformists, without which we must neither hope, nor expect that the Papists should leave off the design that they have had in hand for these so many years, of bringing Popery into England, by such wayes, as it even gives one a horrour but to mention. The Result of our second Conversation was, that we fell upon some Pro­positions, which might give much satisfaction to the Censors of the latter Class, who find no other fault in my Writing, but that I was not more prolix in those things I have told you of. 'Tis a Subject, upon which, you, who have frequent Conversations with Parliament Men, of greatest merit and e­minency, ought especially to insist upon: Tell them then, that in truth both you and I have found the last, and, I hope, shall find these succeeding Members to be filled with these two good designs, whereof the one is to oppose themselves to that which the Papists have long been projecting. Viz. To [Page 100] bring Popery into England, whatsoever it costs them, and rather than fail or miss of their project▪ to make use of Sword, Fire, and Poison, and to Massacre those that stand in their way to hinder them; and not so much as to spare the sacred Person of the KING, (who is the Lords anointed, and whom he hath hitherto preserved as the Apple of his Eye, and whom, I hope and pray he will long continue among us) and those of the Royal Family, if they are any obstacle to their designs: You and I, I say, shall find them strongly engag'd in the said design and resolution of bringing it to a happy success, by the establishment of the Protestant Religi­on in such a manner, as may perpetuate it, and transmit it to Posterity, without any further disturbance or perplexity, and which may be inviolably fastened to the crown of both this, and all our other Kings, that shall come after him. The other design is to procure in the Civil State, Peace, Liberty, and Riches to the People, in putting bounds to Monarchical Government, which altho it be the most excellent in the World, hath a natural inclination to that which is Arbi­trary.

BUT neither you nor I have as yet found, that those Par­liament Men have thought upon putting the Protestant Re­ligion on its true and solid foundations, whilest we saw them resolved to make it descend to Posterity, in the same con­stitution and posture in which they find it at this day, without any Change or Alteration, and in that perpetual variance and discord between the Conformists and Non-Conformists, and with all the Corruptions and Abuses, which are known to be in the Church of England, tho the confirmation and conserva­tion of this Posture of the Church be incompatible with the design of vigorously opposing the bringing in of Popery into England, and this Truth, that I have delivered is indisputable: to wit, that the Papists will be alwayes in the attempt, hope, and expectation of getting in, and making to be predomi­nant [Page 101] the Roman Catholick Religion in the Kingdom, whilest that such division of Parties shall continue, with as much, if not more, distance, animosity, and hostility from the Con­formists to the Non-Conformists, as is found between Rome, and one of these two Parties: And whilest there shall be re­tained in the Church of England so great a nearness and affi­nity with her as to Ceremonies, and exteriour Government.

THEREFORE to remove these obstacles, which hin­der the re-union of these two Parties so heated one against another, and which makes, ut dum singuli pugnant, omnes vin­cantur, and will make that the Oppositions to the designs of Rome, shall never be vigorous, there must be some means of Re-union found out, by representing to the Parliament some Considerations, and afterwards by proposing to them some Overtures grounded upon those Considerations, and which tend to the Re-union and Satisfaction of both Parties.

The first consideration is, that, as in the time of King Edward the sixth, the Reformation, or the transferring the Roman Catholick Religion to that of the Protestant, was to be made in a Kingdome, where of ten persons, nine of them had strong Inclinations and good Affection to Popery, the first Reformers, who were all of them sincere persons, and had the fear of God before their eyes, I say, they were necessarily obliged to manage the spirits and tempers of men with all the prudent caution they could; and though their work was absolutely to change the doctrine of the Church of Rome, as they did, and not to retain the least Nail, or seed of it that may any wayes grow again; but to banish out of England all the Romish Heresies and Dam­nable Idolatries; because that was a thing might be done im­perceptibly and without noise; so as that the people, who are most commonly ignorant in these matters, might not be shockt at it: Yet on the other hand they were forced to re­tain almost all the Government and exteriour service of Rome, [Page 102] and the practice of their Ceremonies, whereof a great alte­ration would have caused no doubt great commotions in Eng­land. And in truth the people, who penetrate the least into matters of belief, took no notice that they had taken away Transubstantiation, so long as they kept up kneeling at the Table of the Lord, and retained the outward face of Hierar­chy, of Ceremonies, observation of Festival dayes, of Fasts, and of Lent, which are things that most affect the people, which they easily swallow, and wherein they make their greatest part, if not their whole of Religion to consist: So that the Transition of Rome to the Protestant Religion was made without noise, or so much as the peoples being alarm­ed at the loss of their old Religion, which they did only reform, (as they said) taking away some of the Abuses that had stollen into it: This was apparent in the Insurrection that broke out in Cornwal in the time of King Edward, a­gainst the attempt to banish the Mass; but which was pre­sently appeased, after they had informed the Male-Contents that they had made no other Alteration in the divine ser­vice, than onely the translating of the Mass into English.

THEN we are next to observe, that though these holy persons, who first set their hands to the work of Reforma­tion, retained several of the practices and Ceremonies of Rome, for the reasons aforesaid, yet it was a thing far from their thoughts to be willing to have the Infallibility of Rome be according to their first resolutions accounted unalterable, as if what had been once Established, should not need to be touched over again, since they only designed to give the first draught (as it were) of the Reformation, adjust­ed to the posture of England in their time, not to what they could have wished, but to what they were able to do: for as we learn by some Letters of Calvin and Peter Martyr, the first Reformers did promise themselves much, that their Suc­cessors would go from those first Rudiments of Reformati­on, [Page 103] to that which should be a more perfect and exact work when the people should be more illuminated, and the num­ber of Protestants should be greater: Et sic à talibus Ru­dimentis (sayes Calvin in his Epistle to the English men, where he calls those Rudiments tolerabiles ineptias) incipere licuit, ut doctos tamen probosque & graves Christi Ministros; ultra eniti, & aliquid limatius & purius quaerere consentane­um foret. The first Reformers acted in that manner as per­sons carry themselves in the first Establishments of States and Kingdomes, wherein the Legislators do not propose to make a perfect Model of Government, which neither can, nor ought to suffer a change from good to better: And so it is in the first Invention of Arts, as of Paper, Printing, concerning Navigation, Painting, or any other curious work, &c. in which it is never to be expected, that one should attain the height of perfection at one dash or Es­say, and where oftentimes, what the first Inventors have projected, is not practicable by those that come after them.

BUT those who have succeeded the first Reformers, have not trod in their good steps, nor have they been influen­ced by the Interests of Heaven, but by those of this World: As five, or six hundred persons of the Clergy, the Bishops, Deans, and Canons, have got into the possession of two thirds of the Ecclesiastical Revenues, they are now become Zealous Opposers of the work of a more perfect Refor­mation, and block up all the Avenues to all attempts of di­viding the Benefices more equally than they are, and which are enjoyed by a very small inconsiderable number of per­sons. They labour to perswade those that have the rule over them, that what the Non-conformists call but a breaking forth, or rude Essay of Reformation, in the time of Cran­mer, and Ridley, was a perfect work and Masterpiece, which ought not to be medled with any more, unless by a grea­ter [Page 104] affinity with Rome: Above all they labour to in­fuse into the minds of these Crowned heads, that the KING at the head of the Convocation, and even by his sole Power and Authority can give Laws to the Church independantly on His Parliament, and so by that means to continue an Ecclesiastical Empire seperate from the Civil, and to make it rest upon that small number of the Cler­gy which possesses the two thirds of Ecclesiastical Re­venues.

TO be short, as the Successors of Cranmer and Ridley saw, that the design of those glorious Martyrs could not take its effect, but by depriving them of their Empire, and of all their fat Benefices, they have acted just quite contrary to what they had in their Eye to be brought to pass: for instead of getting further and further from the Doctrine and practices of Rome, they have been alwayes advancing more and more to them; whereas the first Re­formers, in retaining some of the Ceremonies of Rome, did principally intend by that nearness of affinity with it, to draw over those of that Communion to their own; and not to impose them with rigour on the Protestants; those who have come after them, have turned a means of Peace and Reconciliation, into an Apple of discord, division, and Schisme: Whereas the first Reformers had pulled down the Altars, these have set them up again: Whereas those above all things aimed to respect the Churches beyond Sea, and to keep a strict Union and Friendship with them, their Successors have banished them both from their So­ciety and Communion, and have turned Calvin into redicule, and fanaticisme. Their Animosity is so far carried out against the Churches of France, that Henry Dodwell has maintained to Dr. Tillotson, that the Reformed Churches in France had better by much have kept in the Communion of the Church of Rome, than be governed as they are without Episcopal ordinations.

[Page 105] AS to the Overtures to a Re-union, it is to be expect­ed from the Wisdom of the Parliament, that they will do all, that their first Reformers would have done, if they were alive at this day, for a perfect establishment of the Prote­stant Religion, against the attempts of Rome, and that they will act the Reverse to what the Successors of the first Re­formers have practised, which has been continually to op­pose, and bring obstacles to the good designs of both KING and Parliament, who would have made, no doubt, before this time a Reformation of the Abuses of the Church of Eng­land: As when the House of Commons has made (what they have oft attempted) preparatory Acts, to give bounds to the immeasurable Jurisdiction of the Bishops, to give them Assistants, to take away the plurality of Benefices, and to reduce Chapters to a better pass and usage than they are at this day, which nourishes onely idleness and sloth. And when in the 13. year of Q. Eliz. there was a Statute made, which obliged Ministers onely to subscribe to the Articles concerning Doctrine; the corrupt party of the Church of England alwayes rendred fruitless and insignificant, all these fair Overtures of Union, and even have trampled upon the Models proposed by the good Bishops Ʋsher and Hall, and with heat and transport opposed the Establishment of that excellent Model, which our gratious KING CHARLES the II. proposed at the time of his Restauration to the Crown, and which it could be wished, that the Parliament would again take into their serious Consideration, as the onely remedy to re-unite both Parties, and to settle the Protestant Religion upon its firm and natural Basis, and render it impenetrable to all the designs and attempts of the Papists.

THIS Model is so much the more excellent, as it is for­med upon that of the People of God, among whom the Church and Republique were Synonimous terms: and the [Page 106] Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction was not distinct from the Civil: for the Sacrificers, as such, were not invested with any Jurisdiction. Naturaliter Sacerdotibus, (sayes Grotius de Imperio summarum Potestatum, cap. 9. sect. 3.) nulla jurisdictio competit, quare etsi Sacerdotes habuerunt jurisdictionem, non habuerunt ut Sacerdo­tes, sed ut Magistratus.

AND it is therefore to be hoped and expected from the Wisdome of the Parliament, whose designs have been of late vigorously seen to oppose Popery, that they would banish this Maxim of a Collaterality of Iurisdictions, which establishes it mightily in the world. Methinks it is so much the more Erronious, as it was disputed against in the year; 1641. By the Author of an Excellent book, the title where­of is, The Heritage of Bishops (and who it is thought was a Bishop) for he there expressly denyes their right of Suffrage and voting in the house of Peers: as you may see by his words, pag. 22. Dogma est pontificium, quod regimen Ec­clesiasticum est distinctum à civili, &c. That opinion which di­stinguishes the Ecclesiastical jurisdiction from the civil is a pure piece of Popery: It is affirmed by Bellarmine (libr. de Pontifice cap. 5.) with an accent of so much the more assurance, as it is not contested, neither by the Protestant Doctors, nor by those of Rome, this is what that Cardinal affirms from a pure motive of interest, that so he might exalt the power of the Pope above that of KINGS and Princes, and that so he might ex­empt the Clergy from their submission to the Secular Authority.

Calvin agrees with Bellarmine, Instit. lib. 4. cap. 11. Sect 1. &c. But let it not displease them, though this opinion be the Idol of all the world, and it hath run through all places; and though not only in England, but elsewhere the Ecclesiastical Courts are distinct from the Civil; yet I do boldly maintaine, that this opinion and this Practise is not approved of by God, and is contrary to the antient practise under the legal Oeconomy, and is the cause of the introduction of Popery into the world, and of the disorders that have since come by it.

[Page 107] AGAIN this Model of Government made by the KING, or by his Parliament, is so much the more considerable as it hath an harmonious concurrence with that of the first Reformers in England, and elsewhere, when they made but one body of the Church and of the Republick, and did put Ecclesiastical power into a meer mockery and illusion, and excommunication they made of it a fantasme, unless both were subordinate to the Civil power: Such were Zuinglius, Cranmer, Ridley, Hooper, Martyr, Bullinger, Mus­culus, Gualterus, and those who succeeded them, the two Bishops Wilson and Andrew, Richard Hooker, Dr. Stilling­fleet, Cameron, Tilenus, Rivet, Vedel, Maccerius, Des-Marets, Mastrezat, Mr. Gaches in his Sermon at the ordination of Mr. Sarrau, Mr. Mussard, and a hundred others.

AS to the other overtures for the establishing of good Religion and good order in the Church, it is not necessary to speak of them in particular and retaile, so long as those who set at the helme of affaires know that the Reformation must begin by that of the Universities, banishing out of those Schooles all the Doctrines and persons infected with the Heresies of Rome, Pelagius, and Socinus; and put­ting into their places such as were in them about twenty years ago, or the very Individual persons if they are yet liv­ing.

IT is to be wished also that these Sages of the Parliament would well consider.

1. THAT the first Legislators never made Laws to the people until they had before hand throughly weighed, whi­ther their dispositions were likely to receive them, and the number of the persons, either who would in all probability submit voluntarily to them, or who possibly might be extream averse to those laws.

2. THAT as it is altogether unreasonable, nay impossi­ble, to impose upon the Scotch people the Ecclesiastical Go­vernment, [Page 108] the Liturgy, and the Ceremonies of England, for which fourscore and nineteen of a hundred have an Aversion, the honourable Members of Parliament, would do well to take the same measures in their debates and practices as to Reformation, that they have a design to do in matters of Religion; and since of ten persons in Eng­land that have a love and kindness for the Protestant Re­ligion, there are two thirds of them that cannot away with the Episcopal Government, in that manner as it is at this day established, at least the Liturgy and the Cere­monies, it would be to act contrary to Reason, and to con­tinue division, disorder, and animosities, if they did continue the imposition of them.

3. THAT this was the thought of Mounsieur de Thou in his Preface to Henry the fourth, that it was to sin against Reason, and the Peace of the Kingdome, to think of be­ing able to bring those of the Reformed Religion to the Communion of Rome; and that the onely considerati­on of their great number ought to perswade the KING to give them as much Religious, as Civil, liberty.

4. THAT as to England, it ought also to be the Opi­nion of its Legislators: For it hath it hath been that of all the great men both within, and out of England; of a Burleigh, a Walsingham, a Bacon Lord Verulam, a Shaftsbury, and a Hollis. It has been likewise the Opinion of the Pa­pists themselves, and of Strangers that have come over in­to England, and have made an exact search and inquiry into the humours, the genius, and number of those people that adhere to the reigning Religion, and of those that are contrary to it: My Lord Castlemaine against Dr. Floyd, speaks of the Prelates as of persons that have lost their Senses, to set upon the Persecuting of those that are much more numerous than themselves. They would be punishing for Conscience, where above half of the Nation is openly of a perswasi­on [Page 109] contrary to theirs; and three fourths of the remaining parts, care not a Fiddle-stick for them.

SORBIERE in his Voyage into England sayes, the Churches are built after the Protestant way, and are only great Auditories, with Galleries particularly for the use of preaching, and some small Cantle of the Liturgy; For the people have an aversion for it; and the Religion which is at this day received from the State is the least followed. in pag. 58. he sayes; in­deed the Presbyterians are those that have re-established the KING upon his Throne; and it is that for which they now reproach him, being so persecuted as they are.

ABOVE all the Italian Historian Siri is express in his Hi­story di Currenti tempi; La puritana cice che professando il Calvi­nismo, nella sua rigida & para forma, constituisie la parte l'altre; & che con odio sempre implacabile alla Religione Catholica. The meaning is, that the Puritans are that part of the people, both the most holy, and the most numerous, as also the most powerful, and most rich, and that have the greatest aversion to the Roman Catholick Religion: All these consi­derations, and all these testimonies, are they not sufficient to perswade our Legislators to make a Reformation ad­justed to the great number of the Puritanical people of Eng­land, and who exceed the others not onely in number▪ but also in purity of Doctrine, and exactness of Life and Manners?

BUT the incongruity of making the Essay of Refor­mation in the time of KING Edward the sixth, to pass for a full and compleat Master-piece, that ought not to be touched again, is no less, than when the tenth part of the people of England, and the thousandth part of the Protestants, would fain pass for the Church of England, and for the on­ly true Protestants in Europe, which ought to be acknow­ledged for the holy, pure, Orthodox, and visible Church of Jesus Christ upon the Earth, at least, which ought to have [Page 110] the right hand of excellency before all the Churches Re­formed from Popery, to which belong the Succession of Pulpits since the Apostles, the purity of Doctrine, and holiness of life, only for this reason, because it possesses the Episcopal Ordination: for it is much after this manner that the Doctors, Stillingfleet, Tillotson, Floyd, and Mr. Durel, speak of it: When they invest five or six hundred of the Beneficed Ministers with the name of the Church of Eng­land: This is indeed no better than a piece of refined fashi­onable No-sence, to affirme, that the first draught of Re­formation ought to pass for a perfect worke, that must admit of no hand to come over it again, and give it the last live touches; and that a handful of persons in a Corner of the world, moved and actuated by such Interests, as I am un­willing to name, must needs be, above all others in Christen­dome, the little flock of Jesus Christ.

ALSO this opinionative humour of rejecting since the time of KING Edward the sixth, all the overtures of go­ing over the reformation again, is not an effect, neither of the wisdome of Heaven, nor even of that of this world, and of persons that have but the least reason and common sence, who know that it hath been the practise of all ages, and of all the successors of the first Legislators, who being sensible that those have not been able to foresee in the first Establishing of Laws, the inconveniencies which may arise from them, are forced many times to repeale some of the first lawes, or at least to make some change and alter­ation of them. This is what the Parliaments of England have alwayes done; but this is what the Church of Eng­land has never been willing to do.

YOU expect it may be, that I should pass from those that approve of my writing to them that condemn it, but it would be labour lost to attempt the Cure of their pre­judices, or the giving them any satisfaction, unless they do [Page 111] convince me of a lie, or that I have mak'd or disguis­ed, by some sinister interpretation, the opinions of those great men whom I alledge: Unless we can do that, I shall remain constant in that opinion, that those who condemn my writing are as much under the Tyranny of prejudices, as those who speak against my Iugulum causae, and my Fasci­culus; as if they were pernitious pieces that tend to the ruine of the Church of God, to the subversion of all good order, and which are the production of a person that is moved by an evil spirit, or at least, that is a seer of contentions, and an Enthusiast: For these are the Ideas of my person, and of my writings, quite contrary to those that one of the great men in the Protestant party has conceived both of me and them: He has not indeed forbad me to name him, but he has not likewise given me the permission to do it, so that it will be a very Innocent Action to produce here a fragment of the Letter he wrote to me, which is dated from Paris the 28 of March, 1679.