Question.

VVEll met Countryman, whither are you travelling I pray you?

Ans. Towards I. in H. Sir.

Q. Have you beene at London Sir?

A. Yes.

Q. By your habit you should be a Minister?

A. I am an unworthy Minister of Gods word at S. in E.

Q. I shall be glad of your company, I pray what Colledge were you of, for I suppose you have beene either a Cambridge or an Oxford Scholar?

A. Sir, I have not beene a Graduate.

Q. Then I feare the strange fire of preposterous zeale causes you as it doth many more in these times to run before you be sent: What doe you thinke it's lawfull for one who hath not beene a Graduate to enter into the Ministry? Spondeo te nunquam studioso Scholastico damnum illaturum nisi eum libris privaveris?

A. Sir, I am at the present somewhat unfit for dispu­tation, yet if you can convince me by cleare testimony out of Gods word, that he that hath not been a graduate may not be a Minister of Gods word in case of necessity, as well as a Graduate, if therunto lawfully called, I shall be sorry for my rashnesss, and apply my selfe to some­thing else for the futute.

Q. I pray where is there a necessity of such Preachers as have not been Graduates?

A. Where there is a want of Godly and learned men to teach the People, and whether there be not a want of such to supply many a hundred congregations in Eng­land judge you I pray.

Q. And because you say if he be thereunto lawfully called, I pray who is lawfully called to be a Minister?

A. He that is inwardly called of God, and outward­ly called by those the Scripture Authorize to call him, is lawfully called to be a Minister.

Q. Inwardly called? why ought none to preach, except they bee inwardly called of God, is not the outward calling sufficient?

A. No, for how shall they preach except they be sent, Rom. 10.15. I hope you will conclude the Apostle meant an inward call as well as an outward; no man, no though hee have beene a Graduate, may take this honour to himselfe, but he who is called of God as was Aaron, Heb. 5.4. though a man be never such an Eminent Scholar, he ought not to enter into the Ministry, unlesse hee bee inwardly called of God: it is not every Scholar may turne Preacher: we reade in Dan. 1.17. of foure ex­cellent Scholars, but God powred the Spirit of Prophe­sie upon but one of them, viz. Daniel: Paul was brought up at the feet of Gamaliel, Acts 22.3. a place I feare too much abused by some Scholars: for if wee com­pare that text with Acts 18.3. 'tis said that Pauls craft was to make tents: but suppose it be a truth that Ga­maliel was a Tutor, and Paul a Student under him, and that then and there hee became skilfull in all kinde of Languages, Arts and Sciences, which to prove will make a Scholar to sweat; yet Paul had no warrant to turne Apostle untill hee had commission from Jesus Christ: so though it be necessary that a Minister bee a Scholar, yet no mans Scholarship makes him a Mini­ster [Page 3]though you joyne to that the lord Popes call or the lord Bishops either, for unlesse he bee inwardly called of God hee is not able to prove himselfe a true Minister; and truly it were good that those Scholars that turne Ministers would make knowne their Com­mission they have received from God, if they have re­ceived any, as well as that they have received from a Lordbishop or some Patrone, that when ever they re­prove others for preaching without a call, their owne consciences might not reply, Medice cura teipsum.

Q. Ah sirrah, I begin to smell a rat, for any thing I can per­ceive you could beteem to conclude that Paul was no Scholar?

A. Sir, I pray judge charitably, I beleeve Paul was a better Scholar than your selfe, he spake more langua­ges than they all saith the Text in 1 Cor. 14.18. yet still it lyes upon you to prove that Paul attained his skill in languages by industry at Gamaliels Colledge, or whe­ther he had the extraordinary gift of tongues as those had in Acts the second.

Q. You must know that the call of Ministers is either or­dinary or extraordinary, Prophets and Apostles were extra­ordinarily called, and therefore though then God imployed heardmen and fishermen, yet now miracles are ceased, and we are not to looke at any man as sent of God to preach the Gos­pell unlesse he have been a Graduate.

A. We are not to expect that God should now send either heardmen or fishermen with any other Gospel than wee have already received; or that God should make them Prophets or Apostles; yet it doth not fol­low but that God may call one to the worke of the mi­nistry who for some short time hath wrought upon a trade or followed husbandry, and give him such ordi­nary gifts as may be profitable for those congregations which want godly and learned Divines, or else our En­glish [Page 4]Presbyters sinne against light, for they give their letters testimoniall in the behalfe of such, and also or­daine them.

Q. I know no command in the word, or example, either that any tradesman should enter into the Ministry without an Im­mediate call from Jesus Christ by name, and that such a one as makes others take notice of it as well as himselfe.

A. If thereon you conclude, that it is unlawfull for a man that for some time hath wrought on a trade, after­ward to apply himselfe to the study of Divinity and en­ter into the Ministry if he be by godly and learned Di­vines found able to dispence the word of life for the good of the Church: by the same rule what command or example have you in the word for Baptizing Infants, payment of Tythes, Ordination of Ministers by a Lord Bishop, or for any Graduate to enter into the Ministry unlesse he have such an immediate call, for the miracle will hold for the one as well as the other, and I desire you to prove that either they Acts 8.4. or Appollos Acts 18. were Graduates, or had this immediate call you speake of, yet I hope you will conclude they were men in office, and did not run before they were sent.

Q. I will not trouble my selfe about Appollo at this time, but I answer your demand with another Quere, ought not a man to abide in the same vocation wherein he is called, for I am sure its the counsell of the Apostle. 1 Cor. 7.20. Let e­very man abide in the same vocation whereunto hee is called.

A. Man and Wife ought not by unlawfull meanes to part, nor Servants by unlawfull meanes to reject the yoak, which is the sense if you observe the scope of the Apostle in the Chapter: but I deny that that text bindes a man upon paine of damnation to a particular trade, or that it tyes God onely to Graduates for the worke of the Ministry.

Q. But I pray how shall a man understand the Scripture without knowledge of the Originall tongues?

A. There are Ministers that have not beene Gradu­ates that understand the tongues, and I deny not but some have beene ordained that have not beene very ex­pert in the Latine tongue, yet thankes be to God wee have the Scriptures translated, and neither you or any learned man else is able to shew such a considerable dif­ference betwixt the Originall and our English translati­on as shall forbid such either reading or the understand­ing of the Scriptures if they be industrious; and if the case stand so as the Church of God have neede of such for the Ministry, the Churches good ought to be prefer­red before any mans private interest; yet I would advise such to get as much knowledge of the tongues as possi­ble they can, and not to rest on what they have already attained, that they may be able to convince gainesayers, for 'tis necessary that a Minister bee able to defend the truth as well as preach it.

Q. I thinke thou art a Roundheaded Rascall that never got yet above thy greeke Lexicon; the Churches good? what doth it make for the Churches good to suffer such Preachers? are they not heretiques and very prophane in their lives.

A. I could wish that it could not be said of those Mini­sters that have been Graduates in the Universities, that the most part of them are either unsound in judgement, or lead wicked lives, which will make their account the more dreadfull another day: & for my part such as those are whether they have been graduates or not graduates, unlesse they repent they had better be removed & faith­full pastors put in their roome, than continued in their places to make the sacrifice of the Lord to be abhord, or to leade people out of the ancient paths of life.

Q. Well, I see you will incourage tradesmen to enter into the Ministry?

A. Sir, I would be loath to incourage any Scholar or tradesman either, to enter into the Ministry unlesse he be able to prove he is inwardly called of God to the Mini­stry as well as externally by man, lest God make him an example as he did Vzziah, Korah, Dathan and A­ [...]iram: or blast his ministry: or give him over to a spi­rit of errour, or lest the same judgments befall him that may befall any that run before they be sent.—but I pray sir let us dispute the matter in hand syllogistically, whether or no he that is inwardly called of God, & out­wardly called by those the Scripture Authorize to call him be not a lawful Minister of Jesus Christ though he have not beene a Graduate in a University.—And se­condly, whether he that is not inwardly called of God, nor outwardly by those the Scripture authorize to or­daine Ministers, or though he be outwardly called and yet want the inward call, whether he may dare to preach though he have been a graduate, and for my part I shall be willing to yeeld to any thing that appeares truth.

Q. If thou hadst not been a Roundheaded Rascall thou shouldest have been my companion, but I question whether thou canst frame a Syllogisme worth a flea, and therefore I will neither talke, journey, eate or drinke, or any thing else with thee any longer, but I leave thee to the fiend, & so vale, the devill take thee.

A. Vulgo dicitur, doctrinae solertes ut plurimum politicarum vel agendarum rerum? non sunt maxime experti.