A JOURNEY INTO THE COUNTRY; BEING A DIALOGUE Between an English PROTESTANT Physitian AND AN English PAPIST: WHEREIN The proper State of the Popish Controversy is discoursed.

With Reference (only) to the Government of ENG­LAND in Church and State.

In some Answer to Peter Walsh, and pursuant to the Directions of a Person of Honor.

Papa stupor Mundi, non Deus, non Homo, sed utrumque. Gloss. in proem. Clem. Moscan. de Rom. Pont. l. 1. c. 11.

LONDON, Printed for Henry Brome at the Gun at the West-end of St. Pauls. M DC LXXV.

THE PUBLISHER TO THE READER.

THIS ensuing Discourse seems to be wrote about the time, when (by Proclamation) Papists were not to reside within ten Miles of Lon­don; and 'tis not yet out of Season, nor will be, till our Controversies with the Papists be throughly and truly stated; after which it cannot be long ere they be en­ded: I see not how English men have to do with the Romish Church or State, their Laws, Doctrines or Disci­pline; therefore while they have been exercising us with Dis­putes about those things, they had two Ends, (viz.) Either to lead us into some Precipice, or to Lap-wing us from the proper tendency of our Enquiries, which in truth is our home Concerns, and so a Controversy only between English Pa­pists and English Catholicks (called Protestants for Di­stinction) with reference to their Prince, who governeth by Laws diverse from all the Nations of the World, and so is not to be argu'd out of his Right by any Parallel from other Kingdoms: But as a Person of Honour hath late­ly begun, so this Author has set forward the proper Contest (still meaning) between English Papists and English [Page] Protestants, the latter of whom affirm as follows.

1. That the King of England is Emperour and sole Monarch of England, and established by a Law diverse from all other Nations.

2. That the Church of England has all the Rights of a Patriarchal See, from which lies no Appeal to any o­ther Patriarch.

3. That all Church Authorities and Jurisdictions (with reference to this life and the ends of Government) are right­fully derived from the King of England, being naturally in him as a mixt Person, and Custos utriusque tabulae, according to Rom. 13.

4. That he is a Traytor that denyes this, or affirms any forreign Prince, Prelate or Potentate, to have any Jurisdicti­on in England, &c. or diminishes the Kings Legal Style.

5. There was naturally no difference between Church and State, as to Jurisdictions, until Christian Monarchs divided Jurisdictions, and delegated Civil and Ecclesia­stical Persons to take Conusance, and judge of Causes sepa­rate, and those Jurisdictions are called Civil and Ecclesia­stical in respect of the Delegates only, and not in respect of the Causes whereof they take Conusance and Judge.

6. The King hath power (naturally) within his Do­minions (by such his delegates respectively) to declare [Page] what are Articles of Faith according to Scripture and not otherwise, and to make and interpret Laws for the Govern­ment of Church and State, to appoint Forms of Worship and Discipline, not against the word of God, to add to such Laws, Sanctions, to punish Offenders against such Laws.

7. These Rights and Powers of the King are Inherent in him, as Essential Flowers of his Crown, as antient as the Crown it self, in which his Subjects are so interessed with reference to their Propriety in his personal Govern­ment by Original Constitutions, as the King cannot (by any rightf [...]l Act he can do) grant them away to any Forreign Power, Person, or Potentate, or to others but by way of de­legation, as to the declarative and executive Part.

8. What ever of these Rights and Powers any King of England has at any time allowed to the Pope, has been so allowed against the Fundamental Law of the Land, and so was utterly void, and not obliging to any Successors Kings of England, &c.

9. That all Papists, denying the Jurisdiction of the Pope here, both in Civil and Ecclesiastical matters, yet holding Communion with the Church of Rome in matters of worship, against our established Laws, are grievous Offenders.

10. That passive Obedience, is no Obedience: In as much as true Obedience must be spontaneous, intire, active, [Page] and with respect to the Law of Nature (antecedent to the Kings Command) which injoyns intire Obedience to the Kings lawful Command, for the Lords sake, not barely for the Command sake.

11. That the King cannot dispense with, or free the Subject from such natural Obedience, but only from the penalty added by, and annexed to, his Command.

12. That the King cannot tolerate here the Exercise of the Popish Worship, the same being superstitious and ido­latrous, and against the Established Laws.

13. That no English man whatsoever (how far so e­ver they pretend to differ from or disown the Pope) can give reasonable security for the Preservation of the Peace of the Church or State by them, unless they swear due Allegiance to the King, and by Oath declare his Supremacy in the Church, and by that Oath renounce all the Popes Authority whatsoever over them, and his Power to dispense with that Oath, and that they will be obedient to all the Kings Laws.

14. That an English man in Priests Orders from the Church of Rome [...]xcommunicated or censur'd by tha [...] Church, and yet holding Communion with that Church, i [...] not to be trusted here, although he takes the Oaths above mentioned▪ In as much as he is of no Church, being wilful­ly divided from ours, and by Censure divided from the o­ther, [Page] and so disobedient to all Governors, a lawless and per­jured Person, and so in a present State of Damnation, nor is any Romish Priest to be trusted here, though he takes the said Oaths, in as much as he hath taken a former Oath to the contrary not renounced.

15. That since no English understanding Papist doth absent, or at any time hath absented from our Communion and Worship out of pure Judgment and Reason: But pure­ly by reason of the old inhibition of the Pope in Q. Eliza­beth's time (for before that they joyn'd with us and were called Church Papists) and at the same time they (in op­position to our Kings Laws) do so firmly yield to that Inhi­bition, and disobey several other Commands of the Pope, e­ven in some matters of Faith; It's refer'd to the wisdom of the King with the advice of his said Delegates, whether such co [...]ious Offenders be with any safety to be tolerated, or even con [...]iv'd at here.

16. That the Church and Court of Rome are so incor­porated together, that if Communion with that Church be ad­mitted or tolerated, here it must▪ necessarily be introductory of that Courts Ʋsurpation.

17. That there are now great differences of opinion a­mong the English Papists themselves with reference to the Pope: And if they were all of the mind with the most mo­derate [Page] Pretenders, yet what Security can be given, that they will alwayes be so, or that they shall be succeeded by others of the same Judgment, or is it possible, that the Pope will grant Orders to such, as he now censures, as these are, so that an Admittance of these few stragling Pretenders to favour, as it is against Religion to tolerate Persons in their present desperate State, so it is certainly against all Christian Prudence and Policy of State to allow the unaccountable pretences, to accept the faithless Ingagements, or to credit the unintelligible Faith of those Papistical Nothings.

These things our Author points at in this Discourse, all which (if opposed or doubted of) will be more at large maintained, and the matters of Fact therein cleared by a­nother manner of Testimony, then that of bringing the Vir­gin Mary's Chappel from Nazareth to Dalmatia, and from thence to Loretto; nay, let any one of the five hun­dred Native Priests, that Peter Walsh saies lately were in England, undertake any one Link of this Chain, which con­duces to the End of the Controversy, and the whole Cause shall depend on the success: So that this. Book serves to state the Controversy aright, and in some measure to confirm the reformed Catholicks, to convince the Heteroclite Ad­versaries and to justify our Kings necessary Cautions against the Invaders of his loyal and establish'd Authority.

A JOURNEY INTO THE COUNTRY, &c.

PAPIST,

Well overtaken Sir, how far travail you this way?

Physitian,

Truly Sir, I cannot well tell; I know the place I am going to, but know not how far 'tis thi­ther.

Pap.

Perhaps then two such Travailers have sel­dom met, for I know how far I am to travail, but know not the place I go to.

Phy.

Methinks Sir, you undertake an odd Journey. Pray what occasions it, and the uncertainty thereof.

Pap.

Sir, have you not heard of Ogilbies Wheel, that has run o­ver all the great Roads in England?

Phy.

Yes, that was to ascertain the Miles for Travailers, and is to be inserted into his Britannia, being one part of his Atlas now coming forth, a very laborious and useful Work.

Pap.

Whether the design was to advantage Travailers or the Post-Office, I'le not determine, but sure I am it's become prejudicial to me; for here is the Case, I am obliged to go ten miles from London, and so thought to have gone to Rumford: But it seems by that Wheel, Rumford is made 12 miles off from London, and then if I stay 2 miles short, what know I where I shall lodge:

Phy.

I believe Sir, your head is full of Proclamations, and that troubles you more then the Wheel.

Pap.

I can bear the Proclamation patiently, and be obedient to the Kings Command as well as any Subject he has.

Phy.

Say you so? were I in your Case I should chuse to go to Rumford, and not take up at Cold lodging, for while you are com­manded to go ten Miles from London, you may go as far as you please beyond it.

Pap.
[Page 2]

If I had not been commanded to go ten miles, I would not have gone it, and being commanded to go so far, I am not such a fool as to go further, for something that I know.

Phy.

What think you then of what is said, If any one compels you to go with him a Mile, go with him twain.

Pap.

Would you think it reasonable, if one going five Miles for a Physitian, that another should compel him to go ten Miles ano­ther way.

Phy.

No, but it's meant if any by the power of the Magistrate com­pels you to go a Mile, shew your Obedience to the Magistrates Command in doing more rather then less, or not at all, for so the word in the Original for Compel signifies, and you may see a Ser­mon on that Text. 13. Rom.

Pap.

Well Sir, make what Interpretation of it you please, I know who can do it better, and I have a surer Guid to trust to, that can­not Err.

Phy.

I think I understand you Sir, and what perswasion you are of.

Pap.

Pray then, Sir, let me understand who you are, and what oc­casions your Journey.

Phy.

Why, I am a Protestant Physitian, going to visit a patient some Miles onward to Rumford.

Pap.

Methinks then, Sir, you should make more haste; strange! how lazy and indifferent are Physitians grown in the great Con­cernment of mens Lives: And all this Evil is occasioned by the Re­formation, as it's called, which might better have been in Physick then Religion.

Phy.

As for the Reformation in Religion, I see not how it af­fects the Practice of Physick; but for my not making more haste to my Patient you must know First, That too violent Motions may irritate the pungent and saline particles hid in the Nervous Juice, and cause a Fermentation in the Serum of the blood, which prey­ing on the vital Spirits will conclude in a malignant and putrid feaver: But by a Sedate Managery of the parts, the morbifick matter remains undisturbed, until it may be exterminated by pro­per Evacuations (viz.) Emeticks, Diureticks, Sudorificks, or ordi­nary Purgations. Secondly, The Distemper my Patient labours un­der appears by the Symptomes, indicated by the Vein, to be a Chro­nick Distemper, and become Cathectical, and so not to be accosted by Acute Medicines, and cured of a suddain. Thirdly and lastly, a Physitian, who makes too much haste after a Patients Summons, [Page 3] gives thereby the Patient occasion to think that the Physitian has but few to look after, but small Practice, so will have but mean thoughts of him, and hinder the operation of the Physick, where­as confidence in the Physitian does half the Cure, and (which is worst of all) a small Fee will be thought sufficient for him: And I see no reason, why I should not put a value on my Medicine, as well as you on your Mass: But, Sir, I pray why are you so penu­rious of your Obedience to the Kings Commands, that you will go but just ten miles, though to your Detriment.

Pap.

Why Sir, I'le tell you, the King shall see, that I will obey him exactly, though to my own prejudice, and my opinion is, that whosoever of the Roman Catholick Religion, that live under the Kings protection, should prefer the peace of the State before his own Advantages, and so I have learnt from wise men of this Na­tion.

Phy.

Well Sir, omitting that this Minute Testimony of your O­bedience conduces nothing to the peace of the State, in as much as the going above ten Miles is no breach of the Kings Command, tell me, I pray, why you did not mention the peace of the Church, as well as of the State which you prefer to your own Advan­tages?

Pap.

I must declare to you, I am a Catholick of the Church of Rome, and not of the Court of Rome, mind that, for this distincti­on has much in it, and I ow as much Allegiance to the King as a­ny Protestant of you all, and am ready to take up Arms to de­fend his Royal person, as many Catholicks did in the late Wars.

Phy.

I am satisfied, that many Catholicks were in the late Kings Army, and did Service there; but I always was satisfied also, that it was for their own sakes principally, and for the Kings sake on­ly; inasmuch as they hoped for more Indulgence from a merciful Prince, then from a Herd of men, who could not be content to shave their Fathers beards, but must cut their throats: Yet Sir, I am satisfied. Its true, that you (as you say) Owe great Allegiance to the King, but I never could be satisfied, that ye paid so much, nor no more then utmost necessity compell'd from you, and I am now in greater dissatisfaction, by the story of the ten Miles, and no more.

Pap.

You may still Sir, rest under the same dissatisfaction, and must so do, until you understand throughly the Distinction I before mentioned.

Phy.
[Page 4]

As for your distinction of the Church of Rome and Court of Rome Papist, what ever was intended by the Inventer of the Knack, I take it to be a [...] Notion set up to stifle due Reflecti­ons on old Errors, for most certainly an English Papist, as Papist, abstracted from doctrinal opinions, is a Traytor to the King of England.

Pap.

Hold Sir, you intend not to quarrel me on the road sure, and begin with such rude Language.

Phy.

Pray, why may not I call an English Papist Traytor, as well as you call an English Protestant Heretick the crimes are both Capital.

Pap.

If you understood any Distinction you would answer your self.

Phy.

You crie Distinction, Distinction, Court of Rome, Church of Rome; but what is all that to the Church of England: I suppose the Author of that so much magnified Distinction might mean, tha [...] by n [...] being of the Court of Rome he may hold, That the Pope ha [...] not right to any temporal Jurisdiction in our Kings do­minions, but that our King is absolute Monarch there, that's something indeed and diversifies him from a de fide man and Jesuit, who hold the contrary: But yet he by being of the Church of Rome, must hold that the Pope has right to some spiritual jurisdicti­on within our Kings Dominions, which to affirm is to take away part of his Imperial Crown, and as 'tis against all truth, so by the Laws of this Realm is Treason; besides while he holds the Pope Head of the Church, and so infallible, he obeys him well, who believes not what he says: For while the Church of Rome Papist sayes our King is lawful King of England, Scotland and Ireland, he gives the Lye to his Infallible Holiness, who has continued the old Interdiction of these Kingdoms, the Excommunication of our Kings, and has declared our King to have no right to his King­doms: And therefore in anno 1662. as well from Cardinal Bar­berin, as from the Popes Nuncio at Brussel, a severe Reprimand was sent to the Irish Nobility, who had subscribed a Remonstrance, testifying their Allegiance to our present King, the Pope decla­ring it as an Injury to the Faith, and a denying of his Supre­macy: And in anno 1648. when the Papists to prevent banishment declared, That the Pope cannot absolve them from their Obedi­ence, That he cannot depose any Heretical (as 'tis call'd) Magi­strates, that he cannot dispense with Oaths made with (such) He­reticks: This was at Rome condemned as Heretical, the Parties [Page 5] summoned to appear at Rome, and Censures and Prisons prepared for them; and in the same Case is your Man of Distinction with the Irish Papists, for subscribing their formulary to that purpose: so that I see nothing from your distinction to arise, but a Monster of Aequivocal generation, an Hermophrodite in Religion, part Ro­mish, part English Catholick, whose seminal Vertues are to exert themselves, as either powers prevail.

Pap.

I verily believe, that the Catholicks of the Church of Rome are good Christians, and true Roman Catholicks, though they are not of the Court of Rome, and they indeavour to reform that Church, and distinguish it from that Court.

Phy.

You say well distinguish, for it may be distinguished in Noti­on, but can never be separated in Deed; the Court and the Church of Rome being so interwoven, and although some few Straglers thus distinguish, yet in reality all our Contests concern the Court of Rome, in that all the interest of that Church is dependent on that Court, and they are incorporated together, so that if we should ever joyn in Communion with that Church, we must in a little time submit to the Usurpation of that Court. Jurisdiction of Church and State, being in the same hands cannot be severed; unless some Sir Salomon among you can divide Pope, Cardinal, Pre­late, as great Salomon would have done the Child, which the two Mothers claimed? And as to your irregular and feeble Indeavors to reform that Church: Pray, by what Authority do your true Eng­lish-Roman Catholicks endeavour to reform the Roman Catholick Church? For your Confessors tell you at the first Principle, that ye must believe as the Church believes; yet they themselves be­lieve not so, but would reform that Church in its Articles of Faith.

Pap.

Sir, they know well enough what they have to do, and we believe them, who have good Authority to instruct us in our belief.

Phy.

You have said all that is permitted to silly misled Ignaro's to say: But have a care and inquire after such Reformers, who in single private Capacities unauthoritatively undertake Reformation of Churches: At one time undertaking the Reformation of the Romish and British Churches: Our Church was reformed by due Authority according to the most antient Laws of this Realm; It having all the Rights of a Patriarchal See: But can a few Renega­do-dandi-prat Papists think to unhinge a Church or State under a pretence of Reformation: These Reformers of yours, I fear promp­ted [Page 6] our late Pretenders to Reformation, who first would reform the Court, then the established Church, by Presbytery, then Pres­bytery by Independent, then Independency by Subdivisions of Atomical Sects, till with Quaker and Millenaries Government was reformed quite out of doors; such Reformers (as is said) are like the Hobling Erastian, and run like Badgers with variating and une­qual Motions, and if they can keep where the ridge of secular Power goes highest, their Reformation turns into Rebellion, and Papist Reformers are as various and divers from their Church of Rome, aye, and from themselves.

Pap.

You mistake us much, for the Reformers, I mean, go not about to reform the whole Church, or to unhing it; but to reform in their private Practises and Judgments and teach us so.

Phy.

They are good Members of that Church in the mean time, that are wiser then their whole Church, not only to differ from their Church in their private Practises and Judgments, but to teach all others to do so too: Right Roman Catholicks, I'le warrant them.

Pap.

What, pray, do you think of Father Paul, who wrote the Council of Trent so disadvantagiously to the Romish In­terest, and yet he died a steady Catholick of the Church of Rome.

Phy.

I'le tell you what I think of him, I think first, That he was no English man, and so nothing to our purpose, for I have nothing to say against Forreigners, let them use what Religion their Su­periours there injoyn them: But against English men, who, in op­position to the Religion of State, distinct from that of Faith, which is ordered by the proper Legislative Power, such as your Church of Rome Papist is, for ought I can yet see: If your Father Paul was such, I think him either a fool or a Knave, for if St. Peters Suc­cessor did behave himself well in that Council, your Paul was a Knave to traduce him, if contrary, he was a fool to leave a well ordered Church to follow the Dictates of such a faulty Guide; yet were he a Subject of Rome, he was much too blame so openly to reproach his Prince, and yet was religious to dye a steady Cath [...] ­lick of that Church, while he was obliged to hear the Pharisee sit­ting in St. Peters Chair.

Pap.
[Page 7]

Well, Sir, say what you will, I say, I am a true Ro­man Catholick as to the other World, and a true English man as to this.

Phy.

Sir, you offered a Distinction lately with a witness (viz.) Father Paul, and now comes a Distinction with Paulo majore, and as to this I say; it's a Distinction well becoming a Romish-Church-Ca­tholick but not a true English man: for it looks two waies, for if Chequer Papist, party per pale, half true Papist, half true English will not do, then it is to be interpreted, True English man for life, and after true Roman Catholick, and so it has something of Policy, but more of Romish Guile: In as much as it serves to secure Pro­tection and Preservation, here during life, and after in the other world; True Roman Catholick goes for it to St. Peter, God a mer­cy good Distinguisher; he dares as well be hang'd as tell the Pope this, how he cheats the Pope all his life, and cheats the King at his death; this Distinction dares not appear at Rome, no more then peaceable Mr. Walsh, Mr. White, or Mr. Serjeant, who non-con­form from the Church of Rome, more then our Independent from the Church of England.

Pap.

But Sir, if the Distinguisher (as you call him) explains himself, and sayes he owes Allegiance to the King actively, as to Matters of State, and passively as to Matters of Church, and so differs from your Church in pure Judgment only, and no more then Presbyterian or Independents there, who are good Sub­jects, nevertheless owe Allegiance, and claim protection, &c. what say you then, &c?

Phy.

First I say, that Church and State were all one before Chri­stian Emperours divided them, and causes were all derived from the same Fountain, the King, but as some were put into the hands of Ecclesiasticks, and were called Ecclesiastical or Spiri­tual, so others delegated to Civil Magistrates were called Civil, thence arose the two Jurisdictions, which are naturally one, as in our King, and by Delegation only made two.—But I further say, if you be in earnest, it is the first time I ever heard Papists to fight with Presbyterian weapons, and I mean by earnest, real, for sad Experience has shew'd, that it is not the first time by thousands, that the Militants of the Romish Church have used the unhallowed Artillery of the spurious English Na­tives to fight withal against us: Yet not in earnest or real as such, but in Masquerade, and if your Distinguisher be so half witted [Page 8] to tender this peace-meal Obedience: I say further, It's the pro­per Result of Romish Ignorance, for such Notional Obedience is indeed none: True Obedience ought to be intire, and is due to the lawful Magistrates Commands by the Law of Nature antece­dent to any Command by the Magistrate, for the Lords sake, who injoyns to obey, not barely for the Commands-sake, which injoyns to do: And there is more Religion in such Obedience then in all your Worship: But, Sir, I would willingly be resolv'd, whether the Romish Church▪ Catholick dissent from us in Church matters in pure Judgment, or by reason of some Command from the Pope? next, whether there be not a great difference between Protestant and Popish Dissenters: Inasmuch as the former, whatever he thinks concerning the power of his Prince in Church matters, and per­haps would have him mend his Discipline according to mistaken Rule of Scripture, yet he takes it not from our Prince, and lodges it in a forraign Prince, or Prelate, which last makes it Treason: Let this be answered, and I'le promise you not to take such an un­couth Travail, as at present gives occasion of our Discourse.

Pap.

Pray, Sir, is there any harm, if I prefer the Pope to the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury?

Phy.

None at all, as the former is a Temporal Prince, and the latter but a Subject, nay more, the Arch-Bishop of Rome shall have my Vote to take Precedency of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury, at a general Council, when it happens, but not in England un­less by Curtesy: And if you prefer the Pope before the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury as to any power of Spiritual Jurisdiction in our Kings Dominions, you are unmannerly to the Arch-Bishop, who is Apostolick and Patriarch here, as Pope Ʋrban the second al­lowed, and you are a Traytor to the King, by, and under whose un­doubted, inherent Right and Authority the Arch-bishop is Pri­mate in this Patriarchate.

Pap.

But do you think in your Conscience, that the Pope has no Right to Spiritual Jurisdiction in England?

Phy.

Aye, I do in my Conscience verily believe that the Pope has no Right to any Jurisdiction whatsoever in our Kings Do­minions.

Pap.

Pray, what Grounds have you for it?

Phy.

The Grounds I have for it is from the certain Testimony of Records, continued in Succession for many hundred years, which are to be seen in the Tower, and some of them are tran­scribed [Page 9] by the Lord Coke, and cited in the Report of a Law Case, called Cawdries Case, and in Mr. Prins Collections, whereby it plainly appears that in all ages, wherein the Pope laid claim to Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in England, and offered to put the same in Execution, it was alwaies opposed by Parliaments and Coun­cils, as derogatory to the just Rights of this Crown.

Pap.

But how are you certain of the truth of these Testimo­nies?

Phy.

Sir, as to the matter of Certainty, I shall not use the noti­ons so much contended about, viz. Moral Certainty or sufficient Cer­tainty, so much as the Nature of the thing is capable of, there being three absolute Certainties, by which we come to the knowledg of things. 1. A sensible Certainty. 2. A Mathematical Certainty. 3. An Hi­storical Certainty, and all these are in their kinds respectively ab­solute. The Certainty of Sence makes me absolutely Certain of what I see, hear, &c. The Certainty of Demonstration makes me absolutely Certain, that one and one makes two, and three and three makes six: The Certainty of History continued uninter­rupted and undoubted, and by unanimous Consent of succession of Ages, and Historians, makes me absolutely certain, that there were such Kings of England, as Kenulphus, King Edwin, Edw. the Confessor, William the first, Hen. 1. Hen. 3. Edw. 2. Edw. 3. Rich. 2. Hen. 4. Hen. 5. Hen. 6. Edw. 4. Rich. 3. H. 7. H. 8. and also that in their several and respective Raigns, the Popes claim to Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction here in England was declared null, even by those of the Romish Communion, and that the King was acknowledged to be the Vicar of the highest King, compleat Monarch, Head of the whole body of the Realm, to govern and rule the Kingdom and People of the Land, and above all things the Holy Church, and de­fend the same, to give Authority to his Clergy, to exercise Ecclesi­astical Jurisdiction in this Realm, according to Canons and Laws made for that purpose, and that all Dignitaries of the Church de­rive their preferments from the King and no other, exclusive of the Popes Authority in all Cases whatsoever.

Pap.

How can you call that an absolute Certainty, when there is at the same time a Possibility that the same may be false, for there is a Possibility, that all Historians may be mistaken, and all Histo­ries forged?

Phy.

So is there as much Possibility, that the Air may become an unproportionate Medium, and disturb my Certainty of sight, [Page 10] and so the Sense deluded; so may I have a Delirium, and my In­tellectuals at some time disturbed in their Mathematical Activity, and so confound all absolute Certainties: But until there appear an absolute Certainty of such Interruptions of such means of ab­solute Certainties, the three absolute Certainties remain such, for it is not enough to suppose a Possibility to the contrary, that makes them less certain, but there must appear as high a Certainty to the contrary: And while my Understanding is fully satisfied of such Cer­tainties, it is impossible to believe a Possibility to the contrary: and in case of Historians reporting a matter of Fact diversly, the greater and more valuable Testimony is, to my understanding, absolute, the other not; as if, Mr. Cressey affirms in his Church-History, that this Kingdom of England was for One thousand years absolutely subject to the Spiritual Jurisdiction of the Pope, and all the Testimonies before mentioned (which are Records kept and preserved inviolate and sacred in the Archives of the King­dom, with the care equal with the Evidences for the Crown and Concerns of the King and People) say the contrary, I take it this last Testimony is of absolute Certainty, the other not.

Pap.

But notwithstanding all these Records, Popery was in all those Kings Raigns used in England.

Phy.

It was so, and Hen. 8. dyed one of your steady Roman-Church Catholicks; but whatsoever powers the Pope had in any, or all those Kings Raigns in England, was meerly by the Concession of such Kings, and not otherwise, and at their will and pleasure only, and which they might at any time resume at the like plea­sure, which other Kings have done since: And I must tell you, that although such Concessions have been, yet they ought not to have been, for the King cannot grant away any Inherent Flower of the Crown, such as Jurisdiction is, no more then he can grant away the Crown it self: And whereas the timerous King John, the very black Patch of the English Race, laid down his Crown at the Infi­del Embassadors feet, and afterwards allowed it Tributary to your Italian Usurper: It was more then he by the Law of this Realm could do, and his Acts therein were wholly void, but the King may appoint or alter a Discipline and Worship, not contrary to Gods Holy Will and Appointment.

Pap.

Well, but what if the King should appoint a Liturgie and Form of Worship the same with that of the Catholick Coun­tries?

Phy.
[Page 11]

If he should, what then? would that satisfie the true Ca­tholicks of the Church of Rome, and make them true English men?

Pap.

I believe it might, for while you have so good Authority against the Popes Jurisdiction here, I cannot see at present what more they can have.

Phy.

I vow, I see such kind of arguings as these will soon bring these Controversies into a narrow Room, and (being pressed for­ward and home) to an End.

Pap.

Hold there, for though I cannot at present answer your studied Arguments, yet I may upon Deliberation; however there are them, who are able to do it, whom I shall consult, and then talk with you further.

Phy.

There are them? Very well, who are them with a Mischief? What blind leads the blind? Credulity and Ignorance are the Pillars of your Church: But come Sir, let me give you some Ad­vice; The Service of God ought to be a reasonable Service▪ that is, Logical, according to the word in the Original reasoning, or your reason ought to be primarily concerned therein: You are a per­son endued with rational Faculties, and some stock of Improve­ments? You are thereby distinguished from Brut [...], you are not to act, in things of Religion, out of Custom, Precept or Exam­ple meerly, but to be a wise Berean, more noble than those of Thessa­lonica, to search the Scriptures, and try whether what is taught you be according thereto; do not pin your Faith on other mens sleevs (as the saying is) admire not persons ignorantly, nor things for persons sakes: It was not a justifiable saying of him, who had rather be in an Error with Plato, then in the truth with any other. There was one Farrel an active Presbyterian in Geneva, after whom the People flocked: In so much as one became so bold as to say, he gave greater honour to Farrel then to Paul, and another said of Calvin, that were Paul and Calvin to preach together, he would leave Paul to hear Calvin: So that many men profess this or that Sect of Religion, not so much for Religion sake, as for the sake of the Sect Leaders: Imitate St. Austin, who having a long time followed St. Cyprian (an Orthodox Father of the Church) in the interpretation of a place of Scripture, afterwards met with Ti­conius (an Heretick) interpreting that place, which he closed with, conceiving it best.

Pap.

Truly, Sir, I deny not but your Advice is wholesom, and perhaps seasonable, I shall think of it: But, Sir, what if the Ro­man [Page 12] Catholicks should declare, that they believed and owned the Kings Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction as well as Temporal in all his Do­minions, and disowned the Popes right to any Jurisdiction what­soever here, would not that be Security sufficient for the publick Peace, and prevent severe Laws against us?

Phy.

I think in such case our King might well say of such Pa­pists, as the Duke of Saxony, said of the Lutherans, viz. what they believe now I know, but what they will believe next year I know not: And you may deny the Popes Jurisdiction here, as the Papists in France, did the Popes power of Princes, yet hold it so at Rome: And you may own Allegiance, and Supremacy, to be in the King, as Vauinus wrote for Providence, yet denyed a deity. But I do think that an Oath to that purpose well Pen'd and well taken, would conduce somewhat to the Peace of the Nation, provided, ye by the same Oath declared, that the Pope could not dispense therewith. And if the Pope himself would also declare so, That would certainly conduce to make your true Roman Catholick a true English man; and until both be so done, I cannot promise securi­ty to the peace of the Nation: But I pray, why are you so in love with the Romish Liturgy and Worship, that you vvould have it established here?

Pap.

For these Reasons, 1. For that it is for the Honour of the Christian Religion, that the same way of Worship might be ob­served in all Christian Churches. 2. For that the vvay of the Ro­mish Worship, has been used in all Christian Ages, and in all Chri­stian Kingdoms and Places, till of late, and is still used in some Kingdoms, where the Popes Jurisdiction is not allowed.

Phy.

Sir, as to your first reason, I agree it would be exceed­ingly for the Honour of the Christian Religion, if such Harmo­ny and Agreement could be used in religious Worship, as that one God might be worshipped in one way; but as that never was, so, I fear, never will be, till all things be no more: As to your second reason, I deny that the Romish Worship, as now is used, was in any Christian Age or Kingdom used for above five hundred years af­ter Christianity came into the world, nor do your true English Ro­man Catholicks, as you call them, now agree with any other Chri­stian Kingdom, Church or Place vvhatsoever, if they belie not themselves.

Pap.

Well, it has been so long used, and with so general a Con­sent and Approbation, as may well Intitle it to a preference, to [Page 13] this new upstart way of Worship, which this Nation has had not above 100▪ Years.

Phy.

As to the Argument of Antiquity, and long Usage: It may be good, in cases of Politick, and Civil rights and Interests, and become determinative, provided it be not against positive Laws, natural Equity or reason; And in these Exterior parts of Religi­on, it can obtain no more: For a way of worship repugnant to the positive Law declared in Scripture, or repugnant to the positive Law of the supreme Magistrate, ought not to be exer­cised by any Subject living under the protection of that Supream Magistrate, without sin and breach of Allegiance: And Sir, I must tell you further, that this Notion of Antiquity (though of great veneration in it self, yet) has been often used to the disad­vantage of truth, and made a Stale to dangerous mistakes, and corrupt purposes. You know who was reproved for not walking af­ter the Traditions of the Elders. 7. Mat. 5. and who were so zealous for the Traditions of the Fathers. 1. Gal. 14. Against whose Arguments of Antiquity, it was only opposed search the Scriptures▪ 5. John 39. and you may see 17 Acts 19. who scoff'd at the new Doctrine, as you at this new upstart way of Worship, though indeed elder to yours: So the Antiquity (barely as such) is no Argument for one, or a­gainst another, or that the more ancient (as such) is to be prefer­red before the late; but again, I say, search and try, vvhich is the best, and adhere to that, for the Improvement of your own (not another mans) Talent must enrich you.

Pap.

This despising of things antient, and entertaining of things Novel in Religion, has not only made a lamentable breach in the Catholick Church, but this Nation more particularly and dole­fully has felt the direful Effects thereof, in your Divisions and Subdivisions in the matters of Religion, and the vvayes of re­ligious Worship; witness all your Sects and Dissentions, that have lately over-run the Nation.

Phy.

As this Objection is of some standing, so it's nere the bet­ter, nor stronger for it, for new Answers have fully confoun­ded it, as vvell to the reason of the thing, as to a returning it vvith abundant additions on the Romish Church, vvherein are many more Divisions, Sects and Dissention then in ours, as Doctor Stil­lingfleet has learnedly and faithfully made out in one Chapter of his Book against Idolatry, &c.

Pap.

Pray then tell me a reason, why may not I or another so [Page 14] perswaded, with good conscience, use the Romish Way of Worship and Devotion, and not the English Way of Worship, if I al­low the Kings Supremacy, and disallow the Popes?

Phy.

Laying aside the reasons urged against the irrationality, foppish, feigned Superstition, Incredibility, and Idolatry, at large discoursed by Dr. Stillingfleet in his Book against their Idolatry and Fanaticism, and it's Vindication, a Book called Reflections on the Romish Devotions; another, the Triumphs of Rome over despised Protestancy, two others, viz. the Funeral of the Mass, and the depth and mystery of the Mass, vvhich I vvish you to read and others; I'le tell you another reason, (viz.) because the King has commanded the contrary.

Pap.

Why, can the Kings Command bind me in my vvay of Worship? is it not sufficient if I disown the Pope?

Phy.

You disown the Pope only by half, yet such disowning may be well done, and if we could be assured it was well done might give some Security to the King against Forreign, Civil Pretenders, but still you give him no Security for perfect Obedience, as a true English man, and against breach of the peace of the Church, if you conform not to his lawful Commands in his waies of Worship.

Pap.

Pray, how come the King to have power to impose a way of Worship according to his own Will?

Phy.

The King has as much Power to impose a way of Worship here, as the Pope has in his Dominions, but neither has Power to impose a way of Worship absolutely, according to his own VVill.

Pap.

What? has the King Power to impose a Way of Worship, and yet not according to his own Will? pray according to whose Will does he so impose, &c.

Phy.

He imposes it according to the Will of God?

Pap.

How can that be, for the Protestants say that no Way of Worship is expresly appointed in Scripture, and they allow no Revelations to holy men to be credited.

Phy.

This is the rule they go by, whatsoever in Religion is not of the essence of Christian Religion intituled by our Saviour him­self, or declared or advised to be practised by the Apostles, is law­fully looked on as Religion of State, in that it may be altered or improved, or abolished by the Soveraign power, for the better Advancement of those ends which are essential; the same power may remove Errors, Inconveniences, Scandals and abuses there­in; [Page 15] and of that Nature is the way of Worship, and so within the Power of the King: The King has no Power over the kernel, but over the shell he has, and by his Soveraign power that is pre­served inviolate.

Pap.

Well, but if he has such power, why could he not keep the Old shell, but make a New one?

Phy.

Our King has not made a New shell to keep the Old ker­nel in, but he has amended the Old shell, for the better preserva­tion of the Old kernel.

Pap.

I apprehend what you mean by kernel and shell, you may continue the Metaphor, and tell me wherein our King contributes to the preservation of the Old kernel more then his Holy­ness.

Phy.

Why then, I'le tell you, this kernel and shell first grew in Palestine, which was a land as fruitful, as that mentioned, Deut. 8. and more for fruit-trees (especially Figs there) never leave bear­ing the old Figs, continuing till the new come, which resolvs 14 Mark 13. But for shell fruit (especially such as we talk of) Dr. Heylin says, little is there, but what comes from Damascus: And as to this shell fruit of ours, some Indignities being offered thereto by untoward Neighbours, viz▪ the Essens, Saducees, Scribes, Pharisees, Herodians and Galileans: It was thought fit to be transplanted. And one St. Joseph an honourable Counsellor planted it in England; where it continued and did thrive exceedingly, the Kernel flourishing, keeping its native Vigour, Sap and Colour, the Shell fine, thin, well favoured, and as hard (one would think) as a Rock, and so it continued near five hundred years, afterwards by the Luxuri­ancy of the Soil, and the over officious, and too critical Appoint­ments and Trials of some Supervisors, and too lazy and superfi­cial of others, on this well coloured, thin, and hard shell, a kind of false Rind grew and covered it quite over, till you could not see the true shell; this Rind was maintained, as engendred, by something forreign, nothing from the Kernel: It happened that a great Wind arose once upon a time, about the time of Lent, I think it was a westerly Wind, and as easterly Winds bring in Au­tumn Ascarides, to destroy Orchards and Garden Fruits, so in Lent this westerly Wind brought an infinite number of Vermin (of equivocal generation to be sure) into our Land, they were of several shapes and colours, all of them but of two legs, divel­lish beaks like birds of prey, some were red, some russet, some [Page 16] black, and some of all colours, and Sir, this sort of verminous Breedlings (after that the gross putrid Air, that was their Parent and Vehicle hither▪ became somewhat rarified, and so not so full of luscious support) got into this scurvy Rind, and there digg'd their Mansions, and for many years lived on the adventitious juice which supplyed the Rind, which strange Animals (swarming to too great a number) could not be preserved with fatness in the Rind, but lay gnawing on the shell, made holes therein, and (as I'me credibly informed) had almost endangered the kernel, whereup­on the Matter was inquired into, and found out by skilful Work­men, who quite pared off the Rind, and so destroyed the Nests of those Caterpillars, and have indeavoured to keep the shell, well favoured, thin and hard, as it was at first, yet (it's strange) though one sort of Vermin be scraped off, another kind of Vermin like Mites will fall on, if not warily looked after; but for the whole Matter, we keep it now pretty well, only now and then washing it over with a little water and Salt.

Pap.

Well Sir, if you mean by the Kernel, the Christian Reli­gion, by the Shell, Discipline on Worship, and by the Rind some Super additions thereupon, in which, or upon which the Romish Priests and Regulars lived, and by the paring of the Rind, the Re­formation, and by the Mites, your own Sectaries, and by Water and Salt, paenal laws, as I think you do: What if all this be true, which I deny, yet how come your Kings to have any thing to do in Re­formation of the Church?

Phy.

Our Kings have power to reform the Church of England, &c. by a Power inherent in them, as Emperors within their Do­minions.

Pap.

How, Emperors? sure you'l not make that out. When were the Kings of England stiled Emperors?

Phy.

Whether any of our Kings were actually stil'd Emperors is not the point: But they were so ever since they wore an Impe­rial Crown, and that is ever since there was first a King of Eng­land.

Pap.

But how does that make him Governour of the Church?

Phy.

That makes him not Governour of the Church, but God made him such, and That is Evidence, that God made him such, the Crown of England never being rightfully dependent, as to any Ju­risdiction, on any forreign Emperour, Prince, Potentate or Pa­triarch, and so is his Crown Imperial, and his power absolute, [Page 17] according to the most ancient Constitution and Laws of this Realm, in all matters Civil and Ecclesiastical. Our King is by our fundamental Laws a person sacred, and mixed with the Priesthood, and at his Coronation by a solemn Consecration and Unction, he becomes a sacred and Ecclesiastical Person, for as he hath put up­on him the regal Crown, as Embleme of his Kingship and Power in Temporals, so hath he a Sacerdotal Vestment, commonly cal­led Dalmatick, as a Levitical Ephod, to signifie his Power in Spi­rituals; and accordingly our Kings have always (on occasion) cal­led a National Synod (called here a Convocation) consisting of the Clergy-Lords and Commons, appoints a Primate to preside there, and they consult together, and prepare Canons for or­dering such Church matters, as the King appoints, and no more, which the King afterward Enacts, and makes to be Laws by his Royal Assent; What can your Pope say more for him­self?

Pap.

He can say much more for himself.

Phy.

I believe he can say enough, but he cannot prove half he sayes.

Pap.

He can prove that his way of Worship has been used lon­ger then yours.

Phy.

More shame, that it has been suffered so long, but let it be what it will in other Countries, still I say it ought not to be so here, since the Laws of the Land command the contrary, the Pope having no Right to any Jurisdiction here, as before is said. And I must tell you, and can make it good, That the King of Eng­land hath been styled Vicar of the highest God, long before the Pope became a Prince or Pope.

Pap.

These (Methinks) are odd things, and contrary to the Law of God.

Phy.

Pray, Sir, let me ask you a few Questions, viz. first, whe­ther Peter▪ had any thing to do here in England, when Joseph of Arimathea was here? Or when Paul was here? Which was before he was at Rome, and Joseph came hither with his twelve holy Com­plices after Stephens death: The first Christian Church was built by Joseph at Glassenbury, here was three Arch-bishops and twenty eight Bishops before Austin the Monk came hither, who refused to keep Easter as it was kept at Rome, to baptize by their Ceremonies, or to joyn in preaching with the Anglo-Saxons, I say, pray in all this time, which was some Hundreds of years next after our Sa­viour, [Page 18] what Jurisdiction did St. Peter or his Romish Successors claim in England: Pray, where was Pope or Supremacy either, before they were given to Boniface the third, anno 606, by Phocas (that A­dulterous Assassine) who slew his Master Mauritius, the Emperor; before that, Pope was usual to other Bishops, then Volumus and Ju­bemus came in the room of I beseech ye Brethren. Rom. 13. and (which is remarkable) Mahomet the Grand Impostor broke then out al­so, when the Pope became a Temporal Prince by the Gift to him of the Kingdom of the Lombards by Pippin, Son of Charles Martel. Another Question is Sir, whether our King is not as good a Suc­cessor to St. Joseph, as a Lay Pope is to St. Peter: Pope Constantine the fourth being opposed by the Council of Lateran, as being a Lay person justified himself, and shewed for President Sergius Bishop of Ravenna, and Stephen Bishop of Naples; and when the Pope said first Mass in the City of Constance, King Sigismund in Deacons ha­bit read the Gospel out of St. Luke 2. there went out a Decree from Caesar Augustus, &c.

Pap.

Well Sir, let's not talk too much of these matters; for I may be drawn into a snare in seeming to lessen the Kings Au­thority, from whom I expect protection, and desire the Exercise of my Religion after my own Judgment.

Phy.

Your own Judgment? I like the words well, and wish you guided by your own Judgment, rightly improved by due Inquiries into things, and not by the Judgment of others, without a rational satisfaction, why or wherefore, but only you must do, because you are bid to do so, and until that, you may expect and desire long enough before it be granted.

Pap.

Why should you be so severe against us, who promise all due Obedience to the King, and not to disturb the peace of the Nation?

Phy.

You may promise due Obedience, but then you tell not what that due Obedience is. Also men of your perswasion have alwaies promised fair, but no Age can testifie their suitable performances, if fit occasion be offered to the contrary.

Pap.

Why, then will you condemn all for some?

Phy.

How shall we distinguish ye? Will ye Rendevouz on black Heath, and divide into parties?

Pap.

I gave you a Distinction before of the Church of Rome and Court of Rome Papists, the latter only are proper to be called Papists, the former true Roman Catholicks.

Phy.
[Page 19]

Why? Then I am no Protestant, but a true English Catho­lick?

Pap.

Yes, though you be not a Lutheran Protestant, nor a Calvinian Protestant, yet you protest against the Church of Rome.

Phy.

So though you be not a Jesuit Papist, a de fide Papist, yet you are a Papist, owning the Popes Authority against the Church of England.

Pap.

Well, then you acknowledge us not to be so dangerous, as some other Papists are?

Phy.

Truth, I cannot acknowledg ye so, for, for ought I know, or perhaps your selves, you may be as ill as the worst: And whilst you make a Party disclaimer of the Popes Authority here, that may be but a pretence, and you may have the Popes Authority for so doing: It's not a new thing that Dispensations have been given by the Pope (and frequently they are) not only to Church with us at large, but to communicate with us also, and some have had In­dulgences to worship Idols in proper Countries. And this is your holy Stratagem, like that of Cromwell, who banished some hence, to betray the King beyond Sea: And it is to be remembred, That Watson (of whom your Peter Walsh speaks so well, and called him­self Puritan Papist, and was of the same opinion with him in all your Distinctions and professions of Allegiance and Obedience to our King) proved in conclusion a most notorious open Tray­tor.

Pap.

I cannot tell, but I protest if the Pope should invade ENGLAND, to disturb the Peace thereof; I would draw my sword as soon against him, as I did against Cromwell.

Phy.

So I have heard others (greater then you) to have said, but pray deal fairly and candidly with me, what is it that you would have?

Pap.

That's a Strange Question at this time of day?

Phy.

It's not strange: while I judge by your uncertain Discour­ses, you know not well what to have.

Pap.

Why? I would have Liberty to exercise Religion accor­ding to the Church of Rome.

Phy.

That's diverse from what you ask'd before; for the Reli­gion of the Church of Rome is, that the Pope has power over our King, and how consists that with your Protestation to fight a­gainst him (if he Exercises that power) equally as against Crom­well; [Page 20] this is one of your Romish Equivocations, and it may be you did not draw your Sword against Cromwell, or that you intend the Popes personal Invasion of ENGLAND, which is likely, for the Pope by his Authority given to his Emissaries invades ENG­LAND, and disturbs its peace every day?

Pap.

I intend it as fully as can be intended of any sort of In­vasion, or disturbance of peace by himself or others, for it suf­fices me to Exercise the Roman Catholick Religion, after the man­ner used by the true-English-Roman-Catholicks.

Phy.

Would you Exercise a Religion after such a manner, as is not used or exercised in any one Country whatsoever? Pray Sir, give me leave to ask you another Strange Question, as you call it? viz. Do you think it necessary to be of the Communion of some Church or no?

Pap.

'Tis strange indeed: Yes, I do think it absolutely necessa­ry to be of the Communion of the Church of ROME, and I am so.

Phy.

Very well: Why are you so?

Pap.

Because my Superior is so.

Phy.

Who is your Superior?

Pap.

Your pardon for that Sir.

Phy.

Is he an ENGLISH Roman-Catholick Priest now residing in ENGLAND?

Pap.

He is; and what then? I hope you intend not to inveigle me into a Discovery of him to his harm.

Phy.

No indeed, I wish them all well, well informed, or well out of harms way, but my aim was by that to tell you what I think, viz. That, that very Superior of yours is not now, nor has he been for many years last past, himself a Member of that Church, or of that Communion, or if he be, he's but a lame Mem­ber.

Pap.

Sir, you think strangely, and I must tell you, that he is Professor of Divinity, and a Priest of the Order of St. Fran­cis.

Phy.

Let him be what he will, or can, I say still as I did before, and will Justifie it, that's more; but Wee'l let that alone till anon, and I'le be hold to ask you another question, which may not seem so Strange as the former, and that is, how near does your Church of Rome agree with our Church of England in the bu­siness of Excommunications.

Pap.
[Page 21]

What your Church of England intends by Excommunicati­on, you know best; but our Church of Rome holds, That when a Man is Excommunicated by our Church, he is quite cut off from the Church and its Communion, and delivered over to Satan, until penance be done and absolution given to him; and for it's power I'le tell you, the Abby of Fusuiack was infested with Flies, the Abbot Clareval, said Excommunico eas, and they were all dead im­mediately. A white loaf by Excommunication turns as black as a Coal, and being absolv'd turns just as it was; one Robert Brook being Excommunicated, the Dogs would not take bones from him.

Phy.

Why then you have proved your Professor of Divinity, your Franciscan Priest, to be, not onely in a woful condition, but not of the Church of Rome, nor of its Communion: For he is, and has been a long time Excommunicated by the Pope, for those very distinctions that you and others dote upon, and have mention'd in this our discourse.

Pap.

Sure it can't be so?

Phy.

Do you know Obedient Peter Walsh?

Pap.

I have good reason to know him, and love him, and ho­nour him; for he is a Learned Pious and Peaceable minded man.

Phy.

Why, he it was that tell'd me of the Excommunication I mention.

Pap.

I can't believe it.

Phy.

I verily believe he tell'd it you too.

Pap.

On my Credit he tell'd it not to me.

Phy.

Why, he tell'd it to all the English and Irish Roman Ca­tholicks, and writ a Letter to them all, and printed it, and saies so in that Letter, page 5. 47. 48. So then he is disabled to offi­ciate as a Priest, and while he remains so disabled, and others of the same opinion, as Mr. Walsh sayes, there are five hundred in England. What Confessors have you, and who can make new ones but the Pope? and will he make any more of the same Opi­nion, or such as are not of his Faith? and what if Priests be changed, or change their opinions? as to our State, what se­curity can be given against it? As for ye poor Blinds, ye are al­ready in the Snare, and how to get out, how know ye? for ye must not dispute (nor can ye for want of knowledge, which is necessarily kept from yee) Nor (if ye could) must ye dispute with your Superiors, but ye must believe as the Church believes▪ [Page 22] Yet the reason of such belief, ye must not inquire into, for the Pope is to Explicate all Matters, and all other Explications are declared void and Null, by Pope Pius the Fourth, in a Bull for that purpose, which Bull all Priests are sworn to obey, however your dispensing Priests may wheadle with ye. And in truth it comes to this, that either such a True Roman Catholick, as your Confessor pretends to be, must commit Treason, or renounce some Articles of Faith, holden by that Church, which he advises and conjures ye to believe.

Pap.

Then I hope, such a man deserves protection and favour here, who for his Allegiance to the King runs such a ba­zard?

Phy.

I can't see what protection, or favour he deserves, for such Allegiance or hazard, nor can I tell how far such a one is to be trusted, who is a Heretick at Rome, and called, True Roman-Catholick in England, and cannot agree with the King, if the King should agree with him. Let the King do as he pleases. Why? is it to be thought that he should yield due Obedience to our King, to save his Neck, who refuses due Obedience, to his supream head of his Church to save his Soul?

Pap.

Judge not too rashly? for the Franciscan you speak of is accounted a Man—

Phy.

Let him be accounted what he will, and make what pro­fession of Allegiance and Obedience he pleases, this I know, That the Pharisees (Christs utter Enemies) called themselves so, as holy Seperalists, as others have called themselves the Fa­mily of Love, the Saints, &c. The Saduces who denyed the grand Article of Faith, the Resurrection, so called as the righte­ous. The learned Gnosticks, and the Robbers Zealots, and Peter Walsh sayes, there are Indifferents, Zealots, Bigots and Hypo­crites among them, so call these Interpendents between Pope and King, what you please: I know what to call them, as be­fore, and while I think it not safe for them to be in either place, ROME or ENGLAND, &c. I advise them to hasten to a Locus tertius, and be sure they dye in belief of Purga­tory.

Pap.

It's time for us to have done; I see you are an angry Pro­testant.

Phy.
[Page 23]

I'me glad you can see me something, and of some Church. I cannot see what, or of what Church you are, or would be.

Pap.

But Sir, Do not you think we have travailed ten miles from London?

Phy.

Truly, yes, I take it you have travail'd full ten miles.

Pap.

Then at yonder Sign I'le stay and consider a while.

Phy.

Sir, if you stay an hour there, I'le come and drink a glass of Wine with you.

Pap.

Content. Sir.

Phy.

Farewell.

THE Second PART.

PHY.

How now Sir, what? mounted already? I had hopes to have drank a Bottel of Wine with you, and made haste ac­cordingly?

Pap.

Sir, I have staied a full hour here, my Landlord affirms so, and that is as much as you desired.

Phy.

Sir, I perceive you are a Person that stints your self in the Duties of Religion and Conversation.

Pap.

As long Sir, as I fulfil all Commands, I fulfil the Law.

Phy.

You may be said to fulfil the Law, and yet at the same time not to be obedient to that Law: For, if a man fulfils the Law to save the penalty which the Civil Sanction annexes, that's done by force, when as all Obedience is spontaneous, and ought to be made from the reason of the thing in Morals, for the reason of the Command in Indifferents, yet not for the Command sake, but by Law natural, which injoyns such Commands to be obeyed, as be­fore I said.

Pap.

Sir, you are a strange man, thus to arraign me in my Morals.

Phy.

I find good cause so to do, for what ever Huffs and Bra­gadocho's some of your Clergy make about Demonstration, I find as they understand not, so with you of the Laity, you take all things on trust.

Pap.

What reason have you to say so? you know not on what Grounds we go.

Phy.

Yes, since I've met with you, I have well learnt how to judge of you, and that you take things on trust, as for Exam­ple,

1. You took it on trust, that Ogilbies Wheel had declared it twelve Miles to Rumford.

[Page 25]2. You took it on trust from me (of a different Religion) that you had travail'd ten miles.

3. You took it on trust from your Landlord that you had stay­ed a full hour for me.

4. You took it on trust, that your great Franciscan was of the Communion of the Church of Rome: In all which you may be mistaken, and in the last doubtless are for the reasons be­fore.

Pap.

But pray, whither travail you now? Faith, I have been considering of somewhat you said before, and now you hint at again, i. e. If any Priest be excommunicated, how can he be a true Roman Catholick? therefore, for ought I know, I am none neither, and so not within the Proclamation, and so may return back again to London; however I'le go and inform my self better of these things you have mentioned. (I do not doubt, but at another time to answer them all fully) if I cannot, I know who can?

Phy.

You had need be better informed indeed. I wish you good Information, better then your excommunicated Fryar can give.

Pap.

I'le tell you since you and I parted, I was thinking of you, and of your profession, and wondred that you stuck so long on Religion, since you are counted Atheists.

Phy.

Perhaps some may count us so, for looking into natural Causes and appointing natural Remedies; perhaps the Vulgar may count us so, because we seldom go to Church, the reason of which is manifest from the urgency of our Concerns, being on life and death, and not to be neglected.

Pap.

Yes, truly I have heard the Urgencies are often so great and so many, that a man is appointed to come frequently into the Church to call out the Doctor, without cause, and so he cheats God, himself, and the whole Congregation.

Phy.

What some men may do I know not, this I am sure, the worst of us all cheats not so much as the best of your perswasion.

Pap.

I believe I know the reason why some Physitians are so an­gry with our Religion.

Phy.

I beseech you, why are Physitians angry with your Reli­gion, more then others, while even now they had none?

Pap.

Let their Religion be what it will, they will pretend any Religion rather then ours, for Pope Greg. 15. anno 1622. prohibited Catholicks to use heretical Physitians.

Phy.
[Page 26]

If you have heard of a Book called Religio Medici, you will there find good Religion, and the Exterior part thereof such, as may deserve kindness from a Puritan Papist, yet contain­ing himself within the just bounds of an English Protestant.

Pap.

It is that very Book came even now into my mind, and I remember he sayes there, that he thanked God, he did not live in the time of Christ and his Apostles: And a witty Animadverter (a Roman Catholick I will warrant him) said it might be, because his practice would have been spoyl'd, for Christ and his Apostles cured gratis; and On my Conscience, that makes your Profession so angry with our Religion?

Phy.

Pray, are Papists so charitable as to cure for nothing? I'me sure I know some Physitians of that perswasion, who take as much money as they can get.

Pap.

All Catholicks are not of one mind, but I remember you talk'd much of your Records, and I'me sure we have better Re­cords of more good done by the Physick of the Church, then by the Physicks of your Colledge and Universities.

Phy.

The Physick of the Church? I thought England had now been Master of all the Methods and Systems of Physick extant, yet among them I have not met with the Physick of the Church.

Pap.

It is a curing after the Hermitical way.

Phy.

Hermetical? I have read Hermes Trismegistus, that excel­lent Philosopher, and I think am acquainted with all Medicines and Recipe's Hermetical, Empirical, and Chymical.

Pap.

Sir, you mistake me. I confess, that the Science of Physick, in all Rules of Art, is more refined in England, then was ever be­fore, but I say not Hermetical but Hermitical.

Phy.

Pray unfold your self.

Pap.

Why there's it now? The unfolding of this Notion Her­mitical, will make you understand the Physick of the Church.

Phy.

Oh! I think I take it now. You mean some found out in the Cloysters, which you call Church Physick.

Pap.

I do so, and the use of the Physick would break Doctors, Apothecaries and Chirurgeons.

Phy.

Pray tell's some of it.

Pap.

Some of it? why I could entertain you from hence to Lon­don with it.

Phy.

Come, faith, we have been serious long enough, now make me merry.

Pap.
[Page 27]

Hold ye there; I'me better appointed, then to sport with things sacred: yet what I shall tell you, may occasion a religious mirth, were you rightly disposed?

Phy.

Sir, I can demean my self answerable to any Entertain­ment, and shall frame my self to your Conversation: pray be­gin.

Pap.

Sir, I can tell you how to cure Child-bed Griefs, by pray­ing to St. Marquerite, how St. Marus Bishop of Tryers cures Pal­seys and Convulsions, St. Nicholas cures dangers at Sea, St. Venisa Green-sicknesses and Womens Diseases, St. Lucy Unchastity; and (which is remarkable) St. Cosma and St. Damian, both Physitians, cure all Diseases gratis, and purely upon humble request: And St. Appollonia being pray'd unto, cures the Tooth-ach, which ne­ver a Doctor can do; and I doubt not but (when St. Austin said he was cured of the Tooth-ach by prayers) it was by praying to this Saint: And the Arm of St. David cures the Plague, without the help of Doctor Hodge's book: And if I should tell you all I could, especially of the three Kings of Collen, viz. St. Jasper, St. Melchior, and St. Balthasar, you would wonder.

Phy.

I might wonder indeed, and so I did, when I read the late Book, called Reflections on the Romish Devotions, and I wondred again and again, that rational men (in any Age, much less in this Age, and in this Climate, where Learning and Knowledge is so much refined, improved and sublimed) should so night-mare their Vitali­ties, with a ‘—rudis indigestaque moles’ of ridiculous Trash, and suffer themselves to be blind-folded, wa­ving their proper Conduct of Reason, and following they know not whom, they know not how, they know not whither, especially in their Devotions. And therefore Sir, you may forbear your Hermitical Dispensatory, for I am weary of that, and of my Jour­ney too, therefore let's hasten.

Pap.

Sir, I could in a short Discourse sufficiently make good the Devotions of our Church to the Saints, and enough to convince any rational man.

Phy.

Truly Sir, I must confess you may tell a great many pretty Tales, that might cozen my thoughts of the badness of the wayes, and the uneasiness of my horse, & may be so far acceptable; but my Judgment will be no way moved to think them so much as probably [Page 28] true. And Sir, the Saints to whom those pretended Miracles are by your Church ascribed, are all of antient time; and I hear not of any modern Saints, that are endowed with such powers: So that it should seem your Church has been of late very barren of Saints, or else your Saints have been very lazy, and I wonder that the Reliques of no late Pope Saints are found.

Pap.

As to that Sir, I must confess that these Saints I have men­tioned, lived, and were famous under the Government of the Ca­tholick Bishop of Old Rome, and since that the Christian Faith is setled, there is no need of extraordinary ways.

Phy.

But you know many of the other were not for great ends, but tryals of skill, and now is more need to believe then ever: But why Old Rome, I hope you do not mean Pagan Rome?

Pap.

No, I mean old Christian Rome, when Christianity was first planted there.

Phy.

You do well to appoint them to Ages so long ago, that the truth cannot be inquired into: and I will tell you my Conceit how these Fables first came up. The Heathens, being guilty of Idolatry, worshipping stocks, stones, Images, imaginary Deities and Devils, the ignorant Christians in those dark times, to draw them into the Christian Religion by degrees, might use a kind of a pious fraud, in altering the then Worship from those Objects, and sub­stituting in their room the Images of the Trinity, Angels, Saints and holy Christians: So came the vain repetitions of Prayers, as the Heathens use 6, Mat. 7. And perhaps Dominus Deus Papae so suc­ceeded Deus Antoninus, and Dominus Deus Domitianus; and because Dea Pecunia had a Temple in Rome, Money has been since as much worshipped there as Juno Moneta, and the votivae tabulae hung up in your Churches to the Virgin Mary and Saints, &c. after Diseases cured, were the same as was done among the Pagans, (viz) to Isis in Aegypt, and so in Rome, like our late Mountebanks Catalogues of Cures, which might take by the semblance of their Worship, and so by degrees draw them quite off to the true Christian Wor­ship. Which design not only took effect, but the succeeding Ages proving sottish and unlearned, contented themselves with what an Infant Christian Age had done, and continued that worship, part Heathen, part Christian, and grew into a belief, that the fabulous Mousetraps, made to catch Pagans and bring them into the Church, were the true Gospel Engines to bring Christians to Heaven: So the Inquisition was first invented as a Trap against Moors, after a [Page 29] snare for sheep; which senseless Dotage has ever since bewitc [...] ed the foolish Romans, and has the face to confront this inquisi­tive Age, just like the man, that by frequently telling of a Lye▪ came at last to believe it.

Phy.

Truly, Sir, your conceit may have something of Truth in it, as to the conversion of the Heathens into the Christian Religion by the Catholick Church of Old Rome: But that the way of Worship and Devotion, continued by them for so many hundred years, should deserve your harsh and profane language▪ I understand not, for the primitive Church was (doubtless) as wise as the Church at any time since.

Phy.

That the primitive Catholick Church, was as wise as the Church has at any time since been, I agree; and so was the Pri­mitive Romish Church, when St. Paul and St. Peter were there, but I know when it failed in its Wisdom and Worship; and you your self admit, it's not so wise now, by your distinction of Old Rome and New Rome. Pray unfold that a little.

Pap.

The Catholick Bishop of Old Rome never pretended to an Universal Monarchy, both in Spirituals, and Temporals, over the whole Earth, as the Bishop of New Rome doth, and to be Superi­or to other Sov'raign Princes in civil matters, and as to that point I call this New Rome, from this New Doctrine, which I op­pose as strongly as any Protestant.

Phy.

Sir, I should have thought, that the difference you make between Old Rome, and New Rome, had been with reference to Physick, for that Old Rome was contented with the renowned Ae­scalapius, who cured diseases after the method we now use, and New Rome (it seems) fancies curing after the Hermitical way, as you say; But pray, Sir, did your Priest adopt you into the Com­munion of Old Romes, or New Romes Church? Or, did he tell you the difference between the Doctrines and Worship of one or the other? I doubt not. Yet, you say true in saying it's a Doctrine, and a New Doctrine, for it was made such, by the Council of La­teran, and the Council of Lyons, and not before. So it is that the Pope may dispence with Oathes, and in execution of that Article in Queen Elizabeths time, such dispensations were intercepted in their journy, to the Steady Roman Church Catholicks in Scotland, pretend­ing as your Superiors do, and by those dispensations the Roman-Catholicks (in general) were allowed to promise, Swear, Subscribe, and do what else should be required of them, so as in mind they continued [Page 30] firm, and did use their diligence to advance (in secret) the Roman Faith? The remembrance of which occasion'd King James, to provide as he did against Aequivocal professions, and pretences of Allegi­ance. Now then, how can one be of the Communion of that Church, who differs from that Church in point of faith (if the Pope or his Councels may be believed to determine Articles of faith) if Mr. Cress [...]y faies true in his Book, in which he gives ac­count of his conversion to the Romish Communion; (viz.) That it's impossible, that Catholicks should differ in point of Faith, or that Schism should be in their Church, which is grounded on singular reason; for if he differs in Faith, he ceases to be a Catholick, and when one is Schismatick he ceases to be of that Church.

Pap.

Well, True Roman-Catholicks do hold so; and that makes all of your Church Hereticks and Schismaticks, and out of our Communion.

Phy.

In good time, good Fellow Travailer, does it so? Why? then that very thing (if so) makes your True English Roman Church Catholicks, Hereticks, Schismaticks, and not of the Communion of the Romish Church, to which they have so generally and un­distinguishingly profelyted you, and indeavour to inveigle others. Judge ye now therefore, whether these Phanatick Papists mean good faith to you, or to their Natural Prince, when they pretend Allegiance to their Liege Lord, and do deny Supremacy to the Pope, in Civil and Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction here, and accuse their Church to Err in such pretences, and in some matters of Faith, to their utter severance from that Church-Communion, and Protection; and yet at the same time, with all Subtilty and wilely Arts are Discipling English Men, in the Faith and Communion of the Church of Rome, generally without any Restriction or Limita­tion.

Pap.

It is enough for us (of the Laity) to believe as the Church believes, in matters which concern us, as Practise and Worship, &c. And for the difficult points of Faith and Disputation, let out Superiors (whose duty it is) look to them, for we shall answer for no more then we know, or are Taught.

Phy.

Know? or are taught? Will ye suffer your Ears to be stop­ped, and excuse your not hearing, not knowing, and not being taught? and lay all on him who stopped your Ears with your own consent? Come, Sir, consider, whether it will add any pleasure to your Travail, to go to Hell on another mans back? Or, if you [Page 31] say to the Devil he brought me hither, pray let me go back to whence I came, and keep him: will Old Nick release you? No▪ Therefore get out of your Fetters and duress, break forth from your Ignorant Shackles, search and try, whether your Pope in Church, and Pope in Court agree, then whether your Confessor agrees with Pope or Court, or Church, or with the Communion of any one Country Catholick or other, and you'l easily find him to be so far only like unto the Pope, as an Heteroclite in Religion, either de­ficient or redundant, and not to be brought under any rule? Then consider further, & use due and utmost searches according to your circumstances with the aid of Divine Assistance, whether it be not better to be guided by the Pope within you, (viz.) your own rea­son so informed, which was placed there (as was said) to distin­guish you from a Brute, that can, go, stand, do, &c. as he is taught, or at least by a Church, in whose Conduct you may have rational sa­tisfaction in all the points of its profession: So then if your Pope, your Councils, your Church, do err (as your true English▪ Roman-Catholicks say they do) in Doctrinals in matters of Faith, How can you be assur'd, that your Runigate Priests do not err▪ in the matters they inculcate into your easy heads? and in that unintel­ligible Faith, which is against sence and reason and their own Judgments? And how can you then be assured they err not in worship, which is of less weight?

Pap.

Constant Usage and Approbation are sufficient grounds for me in that. However you may see, that we Roman Catholicks of this perswasion, submit our selves to the Laws of the Land, are willing to give security for not disturbing the pe [...]ce, and of our Allegiance to the King, and so in Justice are intitled to the Kings protection, and deserve not to be lyable to the penal Laws, inten­ded purely against the Papists of the Court of Rome.

Phy.

Very well, we are now come to the end of the Journey whence we began, and so in our Discourse, (viz.) to the Distin­ction of Church of Rome and Court of Rome Papists, and I am still of opinion, that neither ought to be suffered here: For were it possible to believe, that all the English Romish Catholicks were such Mungrel Papists, as you pretend to be, that is, to obey the Pope in part, and our King in part, as has been said, as is plain they are not, as appears by the opposition of most of them to the formu­lary or remonstrance mentioned by Peter Walsh; yet even they are not to be trusted here with safety to the King. For what security [Page 32] can there be given, that the Roman Catholick, who is false to the Pope, should be faithful to the King, that one can serve two Ma­sters, pretending to Equality with equal faithfulness, that one who is excommunicated by his own Church should keep faith with another Church, that one who is notoriously perjured should be believed: That one who is of the Church of Rome, should be bound by that Oath, which his Church condemns, and frequent­ly dispenses with, and he owns: that one who is so easie as to believe the ridiculous Fables of Old Rome, may not as easily be drawn over to the rebellious faults of the New Rome; and Peter Walsh's assurance for his party is just as valuable, as his part­ner Cressy's, for the Jesuits, and what Credit can be given to one who brake his Oath to this Church, and then did as much to the other, and is now possessed with, or by, the Devil, being delive­red over to Satan? Besides 'tis obvious, how dangerous it is to indulge that: sort of people, by the stir they have lately made in publick declaimings against the Religion of this Kingdom, and the disturbance of this Churches peace, which is an ill requital for the Kings gracious Clemency, and has awake­ned those laws, which otherwise might have slept still. And how can that Papist be believed to be true and faithful to that King whom he takes to be an Heretick, and will infallibly be damned? How can a Popish Fanatick, who believes all the Enthusiasmes al­lowed in the Romish Church (viz.) the Revelations of Mother Juliana, the Preface to Sancta Sophia ‘who thirsts after the lights which do expell all Images of Creatures, and calm all manner of passions to the end that the Soul being in vacuity may be more capable of entertaining God, in the pure fund of the Spirit, who is in possession of the Deiform fund of the Soul, which is the simple Essence of the Soul stamped with Divine Impress, from whence ariseth a superessential life, being a way of know­ing without thoughts, of seeing in darkness, of understand­ing without reason [...], of unknowing God by perceiving, of being melted and brought to nothing first, and then being lost and swallowed up in God, by which means all created being is put off, and that which is only Divine put on, being changed into God as Iron heated into the nature of fire, which is attain­ed to by seeking God in the Obscurity of Faith, with a more profound introversion of the Spirit, which is the State of No­thingness, or of Totality, or the unica of Nothing with Nothing, [Page 33] by which the Soul comes to a feeling of her not being, and by consequence of the not being of Creatures?’ I say how can such a one, who must first be mad before he can know he is in his wits, expect any better Entertainment in England, then the three late York-shire Quakers had at Rome (viz.) as being dismissed as Mad-men: They being in France shaved to cure that Frenzy, which oft by shaving is occasioned, and such as this, are some of your. Romish Church Catholicks, nay even the Superiors, as they have testified to the World in Print, and why may not such a Ro­mish Church Quaker, who attains knowledge after a Mystical way by the Impulses of the Spirit only, extravagate soon into civil af­fairs as well as Father White, who never read Mathematicks (as he sayes) and without the Help of Humane Learning, attain to the perfect knowledge of the Quadrature of the Circle? And how are these Formulary men to be believed, while they can (to the Pope) excuse their remonstrance of Allegiance to their King, by saying that they only acknowledge, but do not swear it? that they do not Condemn the opinion contrary to the Oath, nor do they declare that the Pope cannot dispense with the Oath or any part of it? Let any one Judge now, comparing their remonstrance to the King, and their Decla­ration to the Pope, what manner of Allegiance, and Obedience, the King may expect from them, especially it being declared by the Council of Toledo, in the time of Innocent the sixth, That laws as to Ecclesiastical persons bind not ad culpam, but ad poenam; And by Aquinas, Monks are only bound to profess, not to keep the rules of St. Benedict: just so are our True English Roman Catholicks bound to profess and owe (as you call it) Allegiance, but how, or when, to keep or pay it, who can he assured thereof? And their stories tell us, That the Devil appeared to Fryar Ruffin in form of Christ. And what security is there by that Oath taken by them, while the same persons taking that Oath, can confidently assure the Pope, That they do not condemn the opinion contrary to that Oath, nor do they de­clare that the Pope cannot dispense with that Oath, or any part of it, which is as much as to say, and believe, that the Pope can dispense there­with, which they may more easily believe, then that the Pope can dispense with St. Pauls Epistles, with the New Testament, with the Old and New Testament, with the whole law of God, and (to com­pleat the Popes power) He can in a manner do all things that God can do, which several Tenets, are holden by true Roman Catholicks, and others have affirmed that the Pope is, above Law, [Page 34] against Law, without Law, and can do all things, and that in all Oaths the Popes Power is excepted: And lastly, if some of your Superiours should be true to their word or Oath, such as it is and so commenced upon, and explained as before, what Assu­rance can be given, That such Mushrom Papists as you, shall be al­waies guided by them, and not at sometime or other procreate or transmute into Hornets and Wasps, Garnets or Venners, or that un­der colour or pretence of meek Nothings, who live by the Effects of supernatural Inactions of God, Rapts and Extasies, other Baronian wretches may not intrude, using the same vizor for a while, and when occasion and opportunity shall serve, then cry aloud as some have done, Our Lord God the Pope which hast all power in heaven and earth. Then (in earnest) would be advanced the most illustrious name of British and Irish Catholicks, that name of names, and most glo­rious of Titles, as indeed it is but venerated by that great Francis­can with that nick name Roman, and especially Walshes Letter, &c. p. 5. against all which (I hope) Soveraign Notice and Caution will arm it self, and that before it be too late, for (as Plantus) Qui cavet ne decipiatur, vix cavet, cum etiam cavet, quando enim cavisse ratu [...] est, sape is Cautor captus est.

Pap.

You talk of Mad-men, I think you will show your self such, I'me glad I am near my journeys end; I shall part with you here at Bow-bridge, and go the back way, I like not your company now, and shall not trust my self with you in the City, least you discover me.

Phy.

Truly Sir, I have made as much discovery of you as I desire, and I discover (besides your Religious impertinencies) your O­bedience to the Kings commands to be just, as much as that of Mr. Ogilbies wheel, viz. mearly to measure so much of the road as the driver pleases and no more: I wish you (again) better informed and so farewell. But Sir, pray stop but a little while, and I'le tell you a significant piece of Religion of a Souldier of the Bi­shop of Rome, Old Rome, older then your Bishop of old Rome, Cae­sar, who seeing this Souldier fighting with most accurate valour, beset with many Foes, yet forced his way through them all, and escaped through great mires, waters and great difficulties, with only the loss of his shield, ran to the Souldier to imbrace him and to incourage and reward his incomparable prowess; the true hearted Souldier, out of Sence to his Duty and Obedience, which by the Law (written in his heart) he owed to his Prince, was so [Page 35] far from being transported with the glory of his Action, or the value set thereon by Casar's Approbation, that (with Tears in his eyes) he asked pardon of him, that he had left his Target be­hind him.

And Sir, before we part, I have another thing come in my head, and that is, I have a desire to send you a memorable Record, which I have in my Study; it is the Opinion of the Judges, Nobi­lity and Clergy of England, concerning the Kings Supreme Eccle­siastical Power, with reference both to Papists and Puritans, pray, how may I direct it to you?

Pap.

Sir, I shall give it the perusal; you may inclose it in a Pa­per, directed to Mr. Justin Hide, and leave it at the Book-sellers at Graies-Inn Gate.

Phy.

I shall Sir, and once more Farewel.

THE RECORD OF 2o. Febr. 2. JACOBI.

MEmorandum, that by Command from the King, all the Ju­stices of England, with diverse of the Nobility, (viz.) the Lord Ellesmere Lord Chancellour, the Earl of Dorset Lord Treasurer, Viscount Cranborn Princi­pal2 Croke 37. Moore 755. Secretary, the Earl of Nottingham Lord Admiral, the Earls of Northumberland, Worcester, Devon and Northampton, the Lord Zouch, Burleigh and Knowles, the Chan­cellour of the Dutchy, the Arch-bishop of Canterbury, the Bi­shop of London, Popham chief Justice, Bruce Master of the Rolls, Anderson, Gawdy, Walmsley, Femier, Kingsmith, Warberton, Sa­vel, Daniel, Yelverton and Snigg were assembled in the Star-Cham­ber, where the Lord Chancellour after a long speech, made by him concerning Justices of Peace, and his Exhortation to the Justices of Assise, and a D [...]ouse concerning Papists and Puri­tans, declaring how they both vvere Disturbers of the State, and that the King intending to suppress them, and to have the Laws put in Execution against them, demanded of the Justices their Resolutions in three things: First, vvhether the Depri­vation of Puritan Ministers by the high Commissioners, for re­fusing to conform themselves to the Ceremonies appointed, by the last Canons vvas lawful? Whereto all the Justices answe­red, That they had conferred thereof before, and held it to [Page 38] be lawful, because the King hath the Supreme Ecclesiastical Pow­er, vvhich he hath delegated to the Commissioners, vvhere­by they had the power of Deprivation by the Common Law of the Realm: And the Statute of 1. Eliz. which appoints Commissioners to be made by the Queen, doth not confer a­ny new Power, but explain and declare the ancient Power: And therefore they held it clear, ‘That the King without Parliament might make Orders and Constitutions for the Government of the Clergy, and might deprive them if they obeyed not:’ And so the Commissioners might deprive them; but they could not make any Constitutions vvithout the King; and the divulging of such Ordinances by Procla­mation is a most gratious Admonition, and for as much as they have refused to obey, they were lawfully deprived by the Commissioners, ex Officio, without Libel, and [...]re tenus convocati. Secondly. Whether a Prohibition be grantable a­gainst the Commissioners upon the Statute 2 H. 5. if they do not deliver a Copy of the Libel to the Party? Whereto they all answered, That the Statute is intended where the Eccle­siastical Judge proceeds ex Officio & ore tenus. Thirdly. Whe­ther it were an offence punishable, and what punishment they deserved, who framed Petitions, and collected a Multitude of hands thereto, to prefer to the King in a publick Cause, as the Puritans had done vvith an Intimation to the King, That if he denyed their Suit many thousands of his Subjects would be discontented: Whereto all the Justices answered, That it vvas an Offence finable at Discretion, and very near to Treason and Felony in the Punishment, for they ten­ded to the raising of Sedition, Rebellion and Discontent among the people. To which resolution all the Lords a­greed; And then many of the Lords declared, that some of the Puritans had raised a false rumour of the King, how he intended to grant a Toleration to Papists, which Offence the Justices conceived to be heinously finable by the rules of the Common-Law, either in the Kings Bench, or by the King and his Council, or now since the Statute of 3 H. 7. in the Star. Chamber: And the Lords severally declared, how the King vvas discontented vvith the said false Rumour, and had made but the day before a protestation unto them, that he never in­tended [Page 38] it; And that he vvould spend the last drop of bloo [...] in his Body before he vvould do it; And prayed that before any of his Issue should maintain any other Religion then vvh [...] he truly professed and maintained, that God vvould take them o [...] of the World.

FINIS.

This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Text Creation Partnership. Searching, reading, printing, or downloading EEBO-TCP texts is reserved for the authorized users of these project partner institutions. Permission must be granted for subsequent distribution, in print or electronically, of this EEBO-TCP Phase II text, in whole or in part.