The ANSVVER.

If you were not as great a friend to the Brownists, as you are an enemie to the Papists, you would not thus cast dust in the face of the Church of England, and blemish the pietie of those, who notwithstanding they died in defence of the truth against Poperie, did neverthelesse embrace the Booke of Com­mon Prayer, using it to their great comfort, commending it to others, and sometimes hugging it even in the very flames: as in Master Foxes Acts and Monuments may be seene.

ANSVVER.

I hope (if you be a Minister, as you say you are) you can­not but know that those Bookes which are not in the number of the Canonicall Bookes of Scripture, are not appointed to be read as the other are. For our Church (though it be other­wise in the Church of Rome) doth not apply them to establish any doctrine; as in her sixth Article of Religion she hath pro­claimed. They are not allowed to thwart any place of holy Scripture; but at the best to informe manners, and not to con­firme faith: For though they be in many things clear and cor­respondent to the holy Scriptures yet this makes them not to be of the same Canonicall authoritie. All that S. Hierom saith is this, viz. that they be Canonici ad informandos mores, non ad confirmandam fidem. And S. Austin thus, Aug. De Civit. Dei, lib. c. 23. Let us (saith he) omit the Scriptures that are called Apocripha, because the old Fathers, of whom we had the Scriptures, knew not the authors of those workes, wherein though there be some tr [...]ths, yet their mul­titude of falshoods makes them of no Canonicall Authoritie, where by saying, Let us omit the Scriptures that are called Apocripha, he meanes that they should not bee used for the proving of any Doctrine, which cannot bee proved out of the other Scri­ptures, which are the undoubted Word of God.

Nor bee they but of use likewise for matter of Storie, espe­cilly the Bookes of the Machabees; which neverthelesse, are not to teach a man either to sacrifice for the dead, or to kill himselfe.

The direction therefore which King Iames gave the Clergy, in his Conference with them at Hampton Court, is altogether a full answer; namely, that wherein there was any errour, hee would not have them read at all; w [...] ^h saying of his must needs be enough to stop this quarrellers mouth, and tell him, that he makes a stirre without a cause, not caring to disturbe the peace of his holy mother; which how he can be able to answer, let him judge by that which Christ hath charged him with, in Cantic. 2.7.

And thus, both by the Articles of our Church, the determi­nation of Fathers, and the direction of his late Majestie of bles­sed [Page 2] memorie, all moderate and quiet spirits may bee satis­fied concerning these bookes Apocrypha, both for their go­nerall and particular.

ANSWER.

To thinke that this is therefore fabulous, because the gall of a fish is said to be used as a medicine for the eyes, is more than a wise man will be forward to affirme. Vid, Llod's Treasury of health. Phisitians write, that dimb sighted eyes are cured by the gall of a Partridg: so also, by the gall of a Turtle-dove. I have likewise read that the gall of a Cocke mixt with the juyce of Selandine and hony, being annointed on the eyes, restoreth sight. The gall of a Gripe or Ramme is also used in medicine for the same purpose. And if the galls of these creatures be thus preci­ous for the eyes, why may not the like vertue be in the gall of some fish? I have read it of the Tench, that his slime is for some things as medicinable as a salve; whereupon the Tench is commonly called the Phisitian of other fishes. And although I want leisure to search further, yet on the suddaine this I find, That the fat of fresh river fishes, molten and mingled with oyle and hony, are of great excellency for the clearenesse of the eyes: and if the fat of some fishes, why not of some their gall?

I conclude therefore, that more happy is hee, who by his paines and industry, can find out the causes of things, than he who is so singular as to account all fables but his owne fancies.

ANSWER.

You care little for method, I see; September else had beene before October. But to let that passe, and come to the mat­ter in hand: Though I thinke no man bound to beleeve any further of this, which you tearme another lying fable, than himselfe pleaseth; yet this is certaine, that the Scriptures themselves declare how the Angels are sent on Gods arrants, and have sometimes appeared not onely to punish the wicked, but also to do good offices for the godly: as when Lot was led out of Sodom, two Angels came unto him and left him not, untill they had set him in safety. Nor was the Poole of Be­thesda but moved by an Angell; after which motion hee that first stepped in was healed, of whatsoever infirmitie he had.

The Scriptures also mention, that the Angels are all mini­string spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heires of salvation, Hebr. 1.14. and that the good Angels sometimes fight against the bad, Revel. 12.7. and that they pitch their tents round about those that feare God, Psalm. 34.7. The Scriptures (saith Saint Austin) Aug de civit. Dei, [...]b 15. c. 23 plainely averre that the An­gels have appeared, both in visible and palpable figures. Which saying of his, is verified, even by that already mentioned con­cerning the Angels which came to Lot at Sodom: for Lot saw them in the likenesse of men, talked with them, and had try­all of the palpablenesse of their bodies, even when they put forth their hands and pulled him into the house, if not also when they led him out of the Citie. An Angell of the Lord appeared likewise unto Gideon, in the likenesse of a man, with a staffe in his hand, Judges 6.21. And how Manoah and his [Page 6] wife were instructed by an Angell, concerning the birth and education of their sonne Sampson, is recorded in the thirteenth chap. of the same booke of Scripture.

By all which it appeareth, that there is no absolute necessi­tie, that this which you mention should be therefore fabulous, because an Angell was sent among them: For the word [...], is Nuncius in Latine, as you know, and that (in English) is a Messenger. It comes from the word [...], which is Mitto, To send: and therefore the word Angell is no name of Nature, but of Ministery or Office; as is observed by the Fathers.

And as for that which is next, of the evill spirit being in love with the daughter of Raguel, I finde in the writings of some Authours that which I am sure is nothing against it. And first of all I shall mention that which is certaine; namely, that some, both places and persons, have beene haunted by evill spirits: and therefore it is not altogether improbable to think some such thing of Saras bed and Chamber. The more un­likely is, that the evill spirit should have liberty to kill her se­ven Husbands: and yet wee know that the Devill hath had leave sometimes to doe the like; as in that See also Psal. 78.49. example of Iobs servants and his children (recorded in the first Chapter of the booke of Iob) is plainely manifest.

But the most unlike is, that this evill spirit should bee in love: a thing which comes something neere to that interpre­tation which Lactantius gives, Lact. lib. 2. cap. 15. of the Sonnes of God and the daughters of Men, in Genesis the sixt, the second; namely, that they should take them Wives, have carnall action with them, and by that meanes bee kept out of Heaven and cast to the Earth; who thereupon became agents and officers for the de­vill and his angels, who were fallen long before. Now against this, Saint Austin comes with a firme beliefe: for though he seemes to yeeld, rather than deny some such thing concern­ing Devils, as I shall afterwards mention; yet he firmely be­leeves the contrary concerning Gods Angels. And as for de­vills, Michael Psellus affirmeth (out of one Marke a great Daemonist) that the watery and earthly Devils have such bodies as are nourished like spunges with attraction of humour, affir­ming also that they have certaine genitours, cast forth sperme, [Page 7] and produce (by which I think he meanes the Fairies) diverse little creatures. The Aegyptians say that the devils can only ac­company carnally with Women, and not with Men. Plutarch goeth further, and saith, That the Fables of the Gods signified some things that the Devils had done in the old time. And there are (saith Ludovicus Vives) Com. in Aug. De civit. Dei lib. 15. c. 23. a people at this day which glory that their discents are from the Devills, who accompanied with Women in Mens shapes, and with Men in Womens.

Whereto agreeth that which is reported of Merlin, that hee was begotten of a spirit. Nor is it but a generall re­port, and averred by many, either from their owne tryall, or from others that are of indubitable honestie and credit, as saith Saint Austin; that the Sylvanes and Faunes, commonly cal­led Incubi, have often injured Women, desiring and acting carnally with them: And, that certaine Devills (whom the Frenchmen call Dusies) do continually practise this unclean­nesse, and tempt others to it, is affirmed by such persons, and with such confidence that it were impudence (as saith the same Father) to deny it. See August. De Civitate Dei, lib. 15. cap. 23.

Much more concerning this may be read in Burtons Me­lancholy; which relations, whether they be true or false, is not much materiall: or suppose them false, yet can they make no­thing against us, it due regard be had to that allowance which Our Church gives to these Bookes Apocrypha.

ANSWER.

Had old Tobie knowne him to bee an Angell, it is like e­nough he would have demeaned himselfe otherwise: but tak­ing him to be a man as he seemed, hee was more honest than to set him a worke for nothing. Nor in case this story were as true as could be, were it more absurd for old Tobie to offer this Angell wages whilst he knew him not, than it was for Gideon to present an Angell with a Kid; or for Lot to afford the An­gels lodging; or for Manoah to dresse a Kid likewise, that the Angell might eate: For Manoah, saith the Scripture, knew not that he was an Angell, Iudges 13.16. And as for the dog going with them, it is an usuall thing for a dogge to runne a­broad with his Master: and (I pray) quarrell not with him, for feare hee bites you. Little reason is there that you should bee troubled to see a man with a dogge at his heeles, except he were going into a Church: But if you be of the Packe of Prae­cisians, you care as little to exclude your dogge from thence, as you doe to shut out your owne irreverence. And yet Iacob could say, Gen. 28.17. How dreadfull is this place! surely, it is no other than the house of God, and the gate of Heaven. The Lord also saith, Levit. 19.30. Ye shall observe my Sabbaths and reverence my Sanctuary. And in the Prophet Malachie; Mal. 1.6. If I (saith the Lord) be a Father, where is my honour? If I be a Master, where is my Feare? And in the Gospell, Mat. 21.13. & Luke 19.46. It is written (saith Christ) that my House shall bee called the house of prayer; but yee have made it a denne of Theeves: Thus twas then. And I would to God it could not (in some sort) bee as truely said, that Gods House is by many made no better still than a denne of Theeves: wherein they rob him of his service, and are not against the respect which is done there to themselves, giving none at all to him before whom they cannot bee too reverent, but should bow (which we commonly reade Worship,) fall downe, and kneell; Psal. 95.6. as the Psalmist speaketh.

Nor doth Saint Paul but say 1 Cor. 11 22. That the Corinthians despised the Church of God: for which hee praysed them not. And as for reverence to bee done to the Lord of Heaven and Earth, the same Apostle instructs the Hebrewes thus: Wherefore (saith [Page 9] he) Heb. 12.28,29 Wee having received a kingdome which cannot be shaken, let us have grace whereby wee may serve God acceptablie, with re­verence and a godly feare; For our GOD is a consuming fire. All which Scriptures, mentioning these things, are quoted in the Margent.

ANSWER.

Her's still great noise, and little Wooll: much spoken but to little purpose; as in the former answers hath beene already shewed.

ANSWER.

You talke you know not what: for, that the Bishops have not deluded the state, nor those Princes which you speake of, appeares; First, by the Martyrdome of those worthy Bi­shops which suffered in the dayes of Queene Mary, Secondly, by the conference holden at Hampton Court in the beginning of King Iames his Raigne, who (as you know) was a Prince so well accomplished in learning, and particularly in Divinity, that (if they would) they could not have captivated his judg­ment [Page 10] and skill; as in that conference is most apparent: His wise Nobles saw it well enough; For being present and ob­serving all passages, they were perswaded that His Majesty spoke by inspiration. And thirdly, that they went not about to delude him, appeares by that which they said throughout the whole conference; and especially by the faire dealing with His Majestie about particular absolution, and private Baptisme.

ANSWER.

You undertake at the first to speake of things in the Com­mon-Prayer-Booke: but now I see you are fallen upon some­thing else. His name (as you say) which first commanded to bow at the name of Iesus, was Anastatius, a man I hope of an earlier date than either to be termed Pope, by way of derision, or to bee slighted for his care about this custome, which the Church was acquainted with a long time before hee was ever Bishop of Rome. Saint Hierom (in his Comment upon Esay the 45.23. which is the very text alledged by you, to be a te­stimony against bowing of the knee) speakes of it as no new thing in his time: for It is (saith hee) the custome of the Church to bow the knee to CHRIST; which the Jewes, shewing the perversenesse of their minds, altogether refuse to doe. [Page 12] noting thereby, that it was so farre from being new, as that it was come to bee one of the Churches customes. Zanchy is able to say, that the use is ancient. Nor do men of great read­ing but affirme, that it was used in the time of Arius; which must needs be in the Primitive times, because Arius was be­fore the first Councell of Nice. Nor might it but bee used sooner, if wee cast an eye to the scoffings of the Jewes: For the Jewes began to scoffe and mocke at our Saviour, in allusion to his name, even when he suffered; and have ever since deri­ded the Christians with their crucified Iesus. Thus the chiefe Priests mocking him, with the Scribes and Elders, alluding to his name Jesus, said; He saved others, himselfe he cannot save, Matth. 27.42. And (as Marlorat speaketh) Marl. in Mat. ch. 1. [...] 21. The Jewes in scorn and derision to this day cal our Saviour, not Jesus, but Jehu, which with them signifieth only some common and contemptible fellow.

As then the name Iesus is that name in which he was deri­ded, and which they abuse by their chopping and changing that they might thereby abase our Saviour, and with which they flout us for our faith; so is it that name in which he must bee honoured: The Father hath assigned so much unto him, and wee are bound to afford it as a part of his reward for the death of the Crosse. His person (wee know) is taken from us; but his Name he hath left still with us: And as his Person for suffering is crowned with honour and glory, Heb. 2.9. So must his Name be so farre exalted, as that at the Name of Iesus every knee must bow, Phil. 2.10.

And thus will your figurative exposition be nothing worth, though illustrated by a comparison of things done in the Kings name: For at the name of Jesus is meant Jesus named, to whom we how when we heare him called by that name. For though his Person bee exalted and sitteth at the right hand of God; yet his Name, in which he was despised, is not exalted by us as it ought, except we also reverence his Person upon the mentioning of that name, which God hath given him to bee above every Name, that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow.

Where is then the Idoll w^ch you speak of? it would trouble you (sure) to finde it out: and therefore that calumnie was [Page 13] either ignorantly cast upon the Bishops, or maliciously to bring upon them the greater Odium, obloquie, contempt, and scorne.

But others you say were called Jesus, as well as our Lord and Saviour: true, some others have had that name given them by humane imposition, but not as given to our Redeemer by God, with a command of his adoration: Ther's none of them that could either doe that which hee did, or be saved but by him; and must therefore so resigne this name to him, as that he beare it with a maine difference from them all.

And as for that which you say of the holy Angels and soules of the faithfull which have no knees, they have their wayes surely to doe that which wee doe in our bodies; else it would never bee given in charge, that all the Angels of GOD must worship him, Hebr. 1.6. Nor bee written that the Saints in Heaven fall downe before him, Rev. 5.8,9.

Nor may them in Hell bee excluded: For though it bee a torment to them to testifie either reverence or subjection; yet, seeing Christ must Reigne till he have put all his enemies un­der his feet, they shall (whether they will or no) be brought unto it: a proofe of which assertion is in the foureteenth chapter of the Romans, at the tenth and eleventh verses. In which regard the Apostles words, Phil. 2.10. mentioning that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, both of things in Heaven, of things on Earth, and of things under the Earth, are not unfitlie said to bee a Prophecie, which by many Christians is fulfilling in this life here on earth, by blessed spirits and Saints is fulfilled in Heaven, and shall fully be accomplished in the day of judg­ment as Master Calvin very well observeth. For though it bee a prophecie, wee must know that under this prophecie expressed, there is a dutie implyed; For Prophecies (saith one) are of two sorts, some that are fulfilled in an instant, others by degrees and by little and by little; of which latter sort is this prophecie, that every knee shall bow.

ANSWER.

It is no matter what the Papists say; Their dislike should (me thinkes) moderate your spleene, and make you think the better of us for their sakes. To beleeve their reall presence, is no part of our Creed; and yet to kneele is a part of our devo­tion. Wee kneele no more to the Bread than to the Pulpit, or to our seates when we joyne with the Minister in praying un­to God: But our quarrell is not now with them of Rome, but with you for taking durt out of their puddles, and causelesly to throw it at us.

ANSWER.

The errour of Transubstantiation we detest as much as you; but may not therefore fall in with you in your irreverence. If the King offer us his hand to kisse, we take it upon our knees: How much more when the King of Heaven gives us his sonne in these pledges, on whom wee feede in our hearts by Faith with Thanksgiving. Another reason is, because it is received in Prayer: and if men will be ruled by reason, they will not, when they are to petition the King of Kings, omit such a ge­sture of humility, as kneeling is, being the most sutable for a man at his prayers, and for this cause we kneele at the Com­munions receiving; whereat wee both lift up thankfull hearts unto God, for the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ: as also begge of God, that by the merits thereof, our bodies and soules may be preserved to everlasting life.

It would trouble you (sure) to derive our kneeling from the errour of Transubstantiation: and therefore to no purpose doe you come in with the name of Pope Honorius, and tell us of what was hatched at the Councell of Lateran. If you were acquainted with Tertullians accipere & reservare, you would be ashamed to say that Pope Honorius was the first that brought in kneeling. Adoration of the Host was indeed brought in by him, but not kneeling without such adoration in the act of receiving: for they kneeled at the Sacrament in Tertullians time; and hee lived betimes, and was flourishing about the yeare of our Lord 200. which was 1020. yeares before the Councell of Lateran. But you thinke it a great matter I per­ceive, to set up a Shaw-foule to scare a foole: yet men of un­derstanding will find you out.

To ollow on therfore that of Tertul. In the Primitive times were times of persecution, when the christians could not meet so often as they would for feare of troubles: they had also their Station dayes, on which it was not lawfull to worship kneeling. In the first case they did accipere & reservare, receive this Sacrament from the hands of the Priest at Church in seve­rall portions, and take it home and eate it there, at such times as they thought it fit for their ghostly comfort, that they might be sure to have it for their last Viaticum at the approach of sud­den and unexpected danger: but did not alwayes so; for that [Page 16] were to overthrow the nature of the holy Supper and make the Communion to become a private eating. And secondly, on the dayes of station, when they might not kneele, they rather chose to forbeare the receiving and partaking of the holy Sacrament, than to take it standing. Tertullian therefore wisheth them to come, though they might not kneele, and take it standing at the Altar, from whence they might bee suffered to carry it home and eate it at their owne houses kneeling. The Leper which came to Christ, as Saint Marke reports, he kneeled; and as St. Luke, he fell on his face: teaching us in prayer to fall down and kneele before the Lord our Maker. He that worships God irreverently, shewes himselfe not a Christian, but a Manichee; who thought God made the soule, but not the body.

It is recorded of the Heathen, that before they began their Sacrifices, the Priest first beheld the people round about him, and demanded, [...], Who is here, who is here? [...], say the people againe: meaning, A company of good folkes. Intimating hereby, that if there were any there guiltie to themselves of any foule offence, they should depart as unworthy the sight of those rites or mysteries of their reli­gion, which were then to bee performed. And yet because they used to sit at their Sacrifices, Tertullian blamed them: Ter. lib. de Or [...]t. cap 12. For (esteeming them to bee Gods whom they worshipped) they ought to shew more reverence than to sit before them whom they thought to bee Gods: and thereupon inferreth, Quanto magis sub conspectu Dei vivi, Angelo adhuc orationis astante, factum istud irreligiosissimum est. Meaning, that if it were ir­religious for them to sit before their false Gods, seeing they e­steemed them for true ones; it would be more irreligious for us to doe the like before the true God indeed.

But you say that the Apostles did not kneele, when Christ Himselfe delivered the Bread unto them? I answer that if this be a good argument, then we should receive in no place but in an upper Chamber, have no more company but twelve, no women but men, and take it at no time but after Supper; al w^ch we know is otherwise throughout the whole Christian world it being in the Churches power to alter matters of circum­stance, although she may not alter any matter of the essence, or substance of either this or the other Sacrament.

The rule which we find in Scripture is, 1 Cor. 14 40. that all things bee done decently and in order: And without question, what is re­puted enough decently and orderly done at some time and place, and upon some occasion; is not so at another time and place, where no like occasion is: we doe not therefore make our selves wiser than Christ and his Apostles, but follow the rule which his word affordeth. So then, if they sat when they received, most like it was because they sat down to supper, and were not yet risen from the Table: nor did they know what their Master was about to do: it was more than ever he did be­fore; They might perhaps be therefore lesse orderly than other­wise they would have beene. And yet that they tooke it irre­verently, is no where manifest, neither that their sitting was like your fashion of sitting, but after another manner, as differ­ing from your sitting, as kneeling is from standing. Or how­ever, this is certaine that things were not brought into order, but by degrees; Saint Paul had else never said it, that other things he would put in order when he came. 1 Cor. 11.34. I tye you then still to Scripture: For though the Kings Daughter be All glorious within; Yet her cloathing is of wrought Gold: Psal. 45.13,14 so saith the Psalmist, in the 45. Psalme, at the 13. verse.

And whereas you terrifie us with the noise of Canons; when you know how to alledge them to better purpose, wee shall be willing to heare you: For to urge Canons that were, against Canons that are, is nothing for you. It shewes indeed your factious zeale in the way of Shismaticks, and the desire that you have to separate from us, although wee care as little for the Pope as you. But because you talke of ancient Canons, I will afford you one to your little comfort; namely, That with Heretikes or Shismatickes wee ought not to pray: which Canon you may reade in the Code of Canons, For the Universall Church, authorized by the Emperour Iustinian. And that you may the sooner finde it, I direct you to the hundred and seven and thirtieth Canon of the same Booke; or to the three and thirtieth Canon of the Councell of Laodicea, which was ce­lebrated in the yeare of our LORD GOD 364. as Iustellus writeth.

ANSWER.

I doubt me you are none of those who will be so diligent as to reade the whole Service: your pretended errours and dis­likes which you here lay downe in this Dialogue, are cause e­nough to make me think so. And therefore they of your Pa­rish had need to come betimes to Church, if they meane to know your Text, or heare any more than a peece of your Ser­mon; except you doe as no few of your Sect, trifle away a great deale of time in vaine repetitions and idle tautologies in some prayer of your own, which our Saviour Himselfe likens to the practice of the Heathen, and calls no better than much babling.

ANSWER.

This may be answered out of Doctor Boys, whose words be these.

I am occasioned (saith he) in this place justly to defend the peoples answering the Minister aloud in the Church: The beginning of which interlocutory passages, is ascribed by Pla­tina to Damasus Bishop of Rome, by Theodoret to Diodorus [Page 19] Bishop of Antioch, by Walfridus Strabo to Saint Ambrose Bishop of Millane: all which lived 1100 yeares before the Church was acquainted with any French fashions: and yet Basil Epist. 63. alleadgeth that the Churches of Aegypt, Ly­bia, Thebes, Palestina, Phoenicians, Syrians, Mesopotamians, used it long before Socrates and Strabo writ, that Ignatius a Scholler unto Christs owne Schollers, is thought to be the first Author hereof. If any man shall expect greater antiquity and authority, we can fetch this order even from the Quire of Hea­ven: I saw the Lord (said Esay) Esay 6.3. set on an high Throne, the Seraphims stood upon it, and one cried to another, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Hosts, all the World is full of His glory, Esay 6.3. Blessed spirits in praising God answer one another: interchangeably, though unhappie scornefull spirits unmannerly tearme this custome, Tossing of Service, an interrupting of the Minister, a foule errour, yea such an errour and confusion as doth much offend God▪

ANSWER.

If it be so with you, that idle and by-thoughts will not be kept from comming into your mind, pray to God to settle you better, and bee not so rash as to measure other mens corne by your owne Bushell. Saint Ambrose tells us, that in his times [Page 20] the Church resounded againe with the responds of Men, Wo­men, and Children, like to the Sea with its beating waves; or like to the rushing of many waters. Thus in the Latine Church. And in the Greeke Church, Saint Basil is witnesse that the voyce of their prayers and Responds, was like the noise of waters beating against the Rockes: The patterne whereof seemes to be in Revel. 14.2. besides what was before, out of Esay 6.3.

This is therefore all that I may yeeld you; viz. that in every part of the service it is not requisite that it should be so: For in many of the Prayers the people are to be silent, and have no more to doe with an open and loud voyce than to say, Amen. But then again, when occasion is offered, I must say unto them as David did: O praise our God yee people; and make the voyce of his praise to bee heard, Psalm 66.7. Or, as it is in another Psalme, Psal. 95.1. O come let us sing unto the Lord: let us make a joyfull noise to the Rocke of our salvation. Or, as in another, Psal. 107.31.32. ô that men would praise the Lord for his goodnesse; and for his wonder­full works to the children of men: Let them exalt him also in the Congregation of the people, and praise him in the assembly of the Elders. And in a word, as for those times, in which (by the Apostles warrant) they are to say Amen at the end of the Mi­nisters prayer, it was not without due care observed in the ancient times: Saint Paul mentions it, in the place alledged by you; 1 Cor. 14.16. And as Saint Hierome writes, it was the praise of the Primitive Church, That their Amen, was like a clap of thunder; and their Halleluja as the roring of the Sea.

ANSWER.

This is strange that you dare dally thus; These Suffrages, at which you kick with scorne, are answerable to that prayer of Da­vid, in the hundred and two and thirtieth Psalm, where hee prayes for the Prince, Priests and People orderly. For the Prince: Lord re­member David. For the Priests: Let thy Priests be cloathed with righteousnesse. For the People: Let thy Saints sing with joyfulnesse. So we in like manner: Lord save thy King. Indue thy Ministers with righteousnesse: And make thy chosen people joyfull.

This also justifies our order in praying for the King first; for the Clergie next, and for the Laity last of all in our well composed Letany, with which you quarrell next: But had your quarrell been with the mattter of it, as with the manner, I should have said as worthy Hooker did, What one petition is there found in the whole Letany whereof we shall ever be able at any time to say, That no man living needeth the grace or benefit therein craved at Gods hands? And a little before; It now remaineth (saith he) a work, the abso­lute perfection whereof upbraydeth with error, or somewhat worse, them whom in all parts it doth not satisfie. And let me say, that heretofore Rogations or Letanies were the very strength, stay, and comfort of Gods Church. In the dayes of Mamercus bishop of Vienna, the people seeing how heaven threatned their City with imminent ru­ine, began to fly away from it: but their Bishop staying still and some others with him, exhorted such as remained to use those vertuous and holy means wherewith others in the like case have prevailed with God: Whereupon they fly to the Rogations or Letanies formerly used, the Bishop perfects them in what he th [...]ught meet, and addes unto them what the present necessity re­quired. Their good successe was not only a thing known, but an encouragement to others, who being afflicted with famine, and besieged by their enemies, took the same course; as in particular is storied of Sidoneus the Bishop of Arverna. Nor doe we but find by daily experience that those calamities may be neerest at hand, and readiest to break in suddainly upon us, which we in regard of times or circumstances, may imagine to be farthest off; as judi­cious Hooker speaketh: Or if they doe not indeed approach, yet such miseries as being present all men are apt to bewaile with tears, the wise (saith he) should rather by their prayers prevent. Or if [Page 22] finally, we for our selves had a priviledge of immunity, doth not true Christian charity require that whatsoever any part of the world, yea any one of all our brethren doth either suffer or feare, the same we account as our own burthen. The Letany (saith one) is a common treasure house of all good devotion. It may be said of the Church in composing that exquisite prayer, as it was of Ori­gen, writing upon the Canticles: In caeteris alios omnes vicit, in hoc seipsum: In other parts of our Liturgy she surpasseth all others, but in this her self. Some mislike the Letany, for that it hath a petition for all men, and all people: and yet the precept in Gods word is, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men. 1 Timothy 2.1.

Others are angry that we should pray, From suddain death, good Lord deliver us. And I wonder much at this: let men of understan­ding tell me, and let a wise man hearken unto me, whether it be not better to leave this world with a kinde of treatable dissolution, then to be snatcht away as in a moment? Xenophon and Plato were Ethnicks, and strangers from the common wealth of Israel; yet it was no little beauty to their stories to tell us how leasurely Cyrus in the one, and Socrates in the other departed hence. Absolon had a suddain death, and how did David therefore exceed in lamentati­on? Elibu speaks of some which dy in a moment: we may there­fore beg of God to depart as Jacob, Moses, Joshua, David, who had, not only respit to end their own lives in peace; but also to adde comforts and blessings to those about them. But I hasten, and come again to the Dialogue.

ANSWER.

Here still you urge us with interruptions: but I have already shewed the weaknesse of this cavill in my former answers; and should be glad to see you studdy quietnesse, and not to think your selfe wiser then the Church of God in all ages, with whom these eager devotions were better esteemed. And as Fishes were never [Page 23] accepted for Sacrifices: so neither would those Christians be as mute as Fishes in their Congregations.

ANSWER.

The Psalter (as you know) contains the whole book of Psalms: they were made by severall men; someby Moses, some by Solomon, some by Asaph, and the most by David: and not seldome composed upon speciall occasions; for the most part either to pray unto God, or to praise him in such a set form of words. David inscribes ma­ny of them to sundry Musitians, had them used in the service of God, were then, and have been since otherwise used in the Lords service then the other Scriptures: their tittles shew it, and the practise of the Church, both among the Jews and the Christians, evidently declare it. This therefore takes away the edge of your argument, by which you endeavour to limit them altogether to the mouth of the Minister.

And whereas you would beare the world in hand, that Hormisda was the man that first appointed them to be used interchangeably, See St. Aug. confess. lib. 10. cap. 33. you are greatly out from the truth of the story, as even your own T. C. will witnesse against you.

Pantaleon brings testimony that this which you mention was done by Celestine, Pantal. in Chronol. who was Bishop of Rome about an hundred years before Hormisda. But Polydore Virgil goes higher, and saith; Polyd. Virg. de invent. rerum, lib 6 cap. 2. That the division of Davids Psalter into seven parts called Nocturnes, according to the seven dayes of the week, was the work of Hierom at the request of Damasus, who was then the Bishop of Rome. Da­masus also (saith the same author) instituted that the Psalms should be sung and said by course. Thus also Platina: Plat. in vitae Damasi. but some again [Page 24] say, as Polydore noteth, that this was first devised by Ignatius. Thus also Socrates, who maketh Ignatius the Bishop of Antioch in Syria, Hist. Eccl. cap. 8. the first beginner thereof even under the Apostles themselves: he suffered Martyrdome in the daies of the Emperour Trajan, unto whom it was related by his own vice-gerent concerning the Chri­stians of Pontus and Bithinya, that the onely crime he knew of them, was, they used to meet together at a certain day, and to praise Christ with Hymns as a God [secum invicem] one to another amongst themselves. secund. Nor doth this but agree most aptly to the Apostles exhortation, in Eph. 5.19. Speak to your selves (saith he) In Psalms and Hymns and spirituall Songs. See also Exod. 15.1. compared with verse 21. and again look into Esay 6.3.

ANSWER.

If you were not a man of a corrupt minde, you would never (I feare me) vent such stuffe as this: do you not tremble, are you not afraid to dally thus with the word of God? They are likened by some (you say) to women scoulding and accusing one another. And with whom (I pray) should the Minister scould, or who is it that he should accuse, if at any time he should chance to read thus to the people alone? I hope you would shrink out and be none of his auditors for feare he should scould with you, accuse you for consenting with a thief, note you for a partaker with adulterers, a speaker against thy brother, or tell thee that thou hast slandred thine own Mothers sonne: away therefore with such impious ca­vils, and dally not thus with the word of God. These scoffes are [Page 25] fitter for Pagans then for Christians; especially if they consider how dangerous a thing it is to sport themselves with holy things. Be not angry Man, for I do but reprove thee and set before thee the things that thou hast done: I retort, with as much patience as I can, no more then what your selfe hath cast abroad: Others make points, and you take in hand to tag them. But (alasse) we have more much like this a little after, which (as I meet it) shall be answered.

ANSWER.

The Minister is called Priest, and why not? I hope you know (for you have noted it) that all true Christians are called Priests: and so Saint Peter, as well as Saint John declareth it, 1 Pet. 2.5. Revel. 5.10. and therefore the Minister in particular may much more be called by that name, although he offer none of those Sacri­fices which were abolished by Christ, nor intend the upholding of the Popish Masse, with the blasphemous figments which are there: else we condemn the Primitive Church of God, in which this name, which you here would quarrell with, was of frequent [Page 26] use; as you cannot but know, if you know any thing of the anci­ent times.

The Prophet Esay doth Chapt. 61.6. in one place say the same of Christians in generall, which even Saint Peter and Saint John have written: and in Chapt. 66.21. another place declareth, that God will choose some from among them to be Priests and Levites; which, though it be but an allusion, doth denote a Priest-hood still, and this to confist of an imparity as well as of old among the Jewes. Besides, were it so that the Minister might not be called Priest no more then any other Christian, because the Scripture saith of every Christian, man and woman, Yee are an holy Priest-hood, are made Kings and Priests unto God: Then would it sollow, first that none in particular should be a King; And secondly, that neither might any among the Jews have been a publike Priest, or called by that name, because the same which was said to Christians was also said to them, when (out of the Mount) God sent them his message by his servant Moses: Yee have seen (saith the Lord) what I did unto the Aegyptians, and how I bare you on Eagles wings, and brought you unto my selfe. Now therefore if yee will obey my voice indeed, and keep my Covenant, then yee shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine. And yee shall be unto me a kingdome of Priests, and an holy Nation, Exod. 19.4,5,6. It is also warranted by that of Saint Paul, in Hebr. 7.12. where (if you mark it) you shall finde that Priesthood is not taken away, but translated or changed onely: and so also Irenaeus saith, lib. 4. c. 34. And as for the testimonies out of the other Fathers, they are so common, as I need not men­tion them: only let me say, that you may finde the name both of Priest and Priest-hood in the writings of Ignatius that Martyr alrea­dy mentioned, who (as you know) was scholler to Saint John that wrote the Revelation.

This strife of words you should therefore carefully avoid: it doth but disquiet unstable soules. Grant then that name (without quar­relling) to him, which the Scripture not onely gives to every true member of the Church, but foretold it in some sort of even the Evangelicall Ministers in more particular: where, though the Prophet mentions Levites also, who were properly so called in re­gard of their tribe; yet, as is probable enough, he means not that therefore the name of Priest should not be used no more then that of Levite: for except those Priests to which he alludeth, had had their name only in respect of such Sacrifices as then were offered, [Page 27] and to be ended at the death of Christ, and not in regard also of other duties which are common to us and them, which neither are nor may be abolished, I see no reason to think otherwise. To teach and blesse the people were the services of the Priests, both be­fore the Law, and under the Law; as well as now. Melchisedech was a Priest before the Law, and blessed Abraham: to whom al­so Abraham paid his Tythes, Gen. 14.19,20. Nor was it but said to Aaron and his sonnes, under the Law; That they should teach the sonnes of Israel all the Statutes which the Lord hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses, Levit. 10.11. and in Malachy it stands recorded, The priests lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the Law at his mouth: for he is the Messenger of the Lord of hosts; Malach. 2.7. and in Ezekiel, They shall teach my people the difference between the holy and prophane, ch. 44.23. and in 6 Num. the 6 last verses; The Lord spake unto Moses saying, speak unto Aaron and to his sonnes, saying, On this wise yee shall blesse the children of Israel, saying unto them: The Lord blesse thee, and keep thee, The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gratious unto the: The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Is­rael, and I will blesse them: All which is still done by the Ministers of the Gospell: they blesse, they teach, they instruct, they rebuke, they reprove, they exhort, they consecrate the Bread and Wine to holy uses, they offer up the Prayers of the people: nay more, they do as it were offer Christ in a Mystery, and sacrifice him objective­ly, by way of commemoration. In which we differ farre from the Church of Rome: for the Romish Church professeth the Body and Blood of Christ to be the proper subject; we nay, but the proper object of our Celebration.

We take then a Priest and Presbiter now to be all one, and list not to quarrell any longer about the word. For should we descend to Grammer, we are told as much as comes fully home; namely, that the word Priest hath his right place in him whose meer functi­on and charge is the service of God.

Whereunto let me only adde that which I find in Bishop Jewell, We know (saith he) that the Priest or Minister of the Church of God is divided from the rest of his brethren, as was the tribe of Levi from the children of Israel, and hath a speciall office over the people. Neither may any man force himself into that office, with­out lawfull calling. But as touching the inward Priest-hood, and the exercise of the soule, we say even as Saint Peter and Saint John, [Page 28] and Tertullian have said; in this sence every faithfull Christian man is a Priest, and offereth to God Spirituall Sacrifices: In this only sence, I say; and none otherwise. Thus he: granting that there is a Priest-hood internall, and a Priest-hood externall; For (saith he) there is not one of us that ever taught otherwise. See this in his Defence of the Apology for the Church of England, Part 2. pag. 130.

ANSWER.

This is a cavill scarce worth the answering: for it is most cer­tain, that the evill which you speak of, is prayed against. The most therefore which you could urge fairely is no more but this; viz. That the order in saying that Prayer had been better without an answer interposed, then by the interposing of one; in which (I think) you should have met with few or none to quarrell you. But to speak so basely, and in such unbeseeming manner as you have done, serves as a figne to shew with what a malignant spirit [Page 29] you wrote these things, who do rather play the witch your selfe, by speaking perverse words to draw away disciples after you, then justly accuse the Priest in these your vain janglings. But it is as Saint Paul gave notice a great while since, when he called the El­ders of Ephesus together; as we read in the twentieth chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, at the 30 verse.

ANSWER.

Here you shew us still more of your skill in witchery, and tell us of the Priests skipping over the conclusion of the Lords Prayer. And indeed if there were not some President for it in Scripture, it might not be; But there is president for it (in Luke 11.4.) although you be pleased to passe it over with a non sequitur: And yet for all that, it may follow well enough. For whereas it seemed good to the holy Ghost, in one Evangelist, to adde the Doxologie; and in another to omit it; the Church is blamelesse, and may indiffe­rently follow either the one or the other, seeing both of them wrote by inspiration: For who knows (except you, who know any thing) whether it were the purpose of the holy Ghost to have Saint Luke omit it, because Saint Matthew had recorded it; and not rather to shew that it was a compleat Prayer at the end of the petitions, although the reason of the petitions be not mentioned where the [Page 30] Doxology is omitted? It is well then to repeat those words of the conclusion; and not ill, although they be not alwaies mentioned: for our Church in so doing hath the pattern not only of all the Latine, and some of the Greek Fathers, but even of Saint Luke himself. Quando dicimus, libera nos à malo; nihil remanet quod ultra adhuc debeat postulari, as saith Saint Cyprian; Cypr. de Orat. Dominic. that is: When we say, Deliver from evill; there remains nothing more to be prayed for.

ANSWER.

I would that all in your book could have been as well approved as this: for here you speak both the words of sobernesse and truth; and I commend you for it.

ANSWER.

This is mentioned to great purpose, I promise you; is it not? I am loath to trifle away the time in these passages, I should else go neer hand to tell you, that as Simon Magus was taken for some great one, because he had a long time bewitched the people with sorceries: so you, perhaps, would be thought some great one too, for your profound knowledge in what passeth between the Devill and witches, of which you have so often told us. But whilest you are so busie in the Theory of their trade, and apply your speculations no better, you doe but shew your selfe in your colours to please a company of frantick and mis-perswaded peo­ple, wilfull and wandring soules, who are led with an intem­perate spirit as well as you. The simple (saith Solomon) Prov. 14.15,16 beleeveth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going. A wise man feareth and departeth from evill: but the foole rageth and is confi­dent. Ch. 16. v. 29, 30 A violent man entiseth his neighbour, and leadeth him into the way that is not good. He shutteth his eyes to devise froward things: moving his lips, he bringeth evill to passe. Ch. 15.2. The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fooles bableth out foolishnesse; And I pray (good Sir) doe you a little work upon that.

ANSWER.

Before he was like to a Witch; but now he and his Clark are likened to Players: you will one day be ashamed of this, I feare; unlesse you act a better part before you leave the stage; your pre­sent Plaudite may deceive you: the future is that which is most ma­teriall. But lets goe on, and see what followeth.

ANSWER.

Oh desperate wickednesse! dares any man be so bold as to utter such impieties? The first words [Lord save this woman thy servant] will stand as a sentence against this prophane babler to witnesse a­gainst him, be he whom he will. He a Minister! more fit to make a rayling Rabshakeh, or a scoffing Michal. Let him therefore in time look well unto it, lest with prophane Esau he loose his birth­right, and be deprived of his heavenly Fathers blessing. As well may he tell us that we are to have no other God but the Minister, because the Minister reads the first Commandement, as vent this thus concerning the Priest and Clark in their Churching of wo­men.

ANSWER.

You have a fine faculty in moulding of matters, I see; and in fa­shioning of things according as your selfe thinks good to fancy: One while you say it is a strange giving of thanks; another while, it is no giving of thanks; and then again, it is a giving of thanks, but turned to a Jewish kind of Purification. You would make a pretty Proteus, I perceive: But I will reprove thee, and set before thee the things that thou hast done: Thou hast let thy mouth speak wickednesse, and with thy tongue thou hast set forth deceit; according to that of the Psalmist, with which you dallied but even now. Can I tell how to say otherwise? Is here no giving of thanks? I marvaile that you blush not, nor be ashamed to wrest things contrary to the evidence of open sight. I have lifted up mine eyes unto the hills from whence commeth my helpe: words (sure) of thankfulnesse. Nay the whole Psalme is an Hymne of Prayse and thanksgiving, fitly chosen for such a purpose. 2 Chr. 29,30. Moreover, Hezekiah the King, and the Princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the Lord, with the words of David, and of Asaph the Seer: and they sang prayses with gladnesse, and they bowed their [...]eads and worshipped, 2 Chro 29.30. The Church then you see goes on in a right way, and repaires to a worthy store-house for a fitting form. But I perceive your drift, as if you aymed (like T. C. your great Goliah) to have no publike thanks in such a case as this, because it comes too neer the Jewish kinde of Purification. Wherefore I shall answer in more particular, and tell you, that although that Law as concerning the Ceremony be ceased; yet the righteousnesse thereof is to be fulfilled in those which walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit, Rom. 8.4. For in all things we are commanded to give thanks, 1 Thess. 5.18. And must offer the Sacrifice of prayse unto God, Heb. 13.15. And if for other benefits thanks and praise be due, then for this preservation, which (in Melancthons phrase) is Magnum miraculum, a great miracle: insomuch that if the Childe, when he comes to know it, will not stick to say with David, Psal. 139.13. I will give thanks to thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: then may the Mother not refuse who is wonderfully preserved and delivered. So then; this is no [Page 34] Jewish Ceremony, but a Christian duty, performed, not out of Custome, but out of Conscience; not to make the act of honour­able Marriage uncleane, but to blesse God for deliverance from so manifold perils. Whereupon neither can the vaile be the badge of an Harlot; but as new gloves are fit for Marriages, and blacks for Funeralls: so this, an attire for such a time, not only decent and grave, but also most usefull and convenient to distinguish her from other women: And herein the Apostles rule is well observed, viz. that All things be done decently and in order. Where's then the Jew or the Harlot that you spake off; or the great offence, not on­ly to honest women, but also to every true Christian man? you fight with shaddows, I doe assure you; and produce the abortive fancies of your own brain, which are too weak to endure the touch.

ANSWER.

Oh how daintily you toy and dally still with the Churches Cu­stomes! Doe you not hug your selfe for this rare invention of the conjured ghost? It must neeeds be admirable, to be a man of such a deep conceit, and to have such a Spirit within him, as can make him expresse himselfe thus pithily. Your dull Doctors may hold the blinking candle to you, and come hither (with shame enough) to learne as curious fancies every way, (or very neare,) as admirable as what was delivered by you formerly, of the Devill and Witch, of the Players and the Scoulds, in which your master-peece of pi­ety was most apparent, and proved to be as impious an expression as any you need to utter.

But to beate about the bush no longer: Your quarrell is now a­bout Interrogatories ministred to Infants, and the Answers of the Godfathers and Godmothers; a custome (you say) first brought in­to the Church by the Pope. But by what Pope, I wonder? The name Pope, you know, is ancient; but in ordinary acceptation sounds harsh, and is odious; and had never been mentioned thus co­vertly by you, had it not been for the better colouring of your bad cause, which indeed you had need varnish over as well as you can.

If he were a Pope that first appointed this order, I must tell you he was a very ancient one: one that lived before you, or your great Grandfather were borne. They that call him by his name, use to say that it was Otherwise written Higinius. Higynus Bishop of Rome, about the yeare aster Christs birth 150. At which time (you know, and a great while after) Rome was famous for her glorious Martyrs, the very Bishops (whom you scornfully terme Popes) laying down their lives for the faith of Christ. You cannot tell how to deny it; your face must be more then brazen if you should attempt it: nor can you exclude him from among the men of the Primitive times, who was flourishing no later.

Infants, as well as elder ones, were baptized from the first: for to this appertaineth that which is clearly set down in the Scriptures, that the Apostles baptized whole houses or families. Origen saith, Orig. in Epist. ad Rom [...]. viz. in ca 6. That the Church of Christ received of the Apostles themselves, baptizing of Infants. And Augustine (against the Donatists) lib 4. c. 23, 24. boldly affirmeth, That baptizing of Children was not fetch'd from the authority of men, or of Councels, but from the tradition or doctrine of the Apostles. Neither doe I think it a matter easie for any man to prove, that ever Bap­tisme did use to be administred without some kinde of interroga­tories, or profession of Faith: whereunto Saint Peter (as the lear­ned think) alluding, hath said, 1 Pet. 3.21. that the Baptisme which saveth us is not (as legall Purifications were) a clensing of the flesh from outward impurity, but [...], an interrogative tryall of a good conscience towards God. Higynus then might dispose of something in this order, in such sort as it hath continued since, but not be he that first appointed it: whereto is pertinent that which I finde alledged by another, namely, That the profession of Faith, as it appeareth by records, M^r. Bedf. treat. of the Sacr. pa. 200. was at the first direct and plaine, by recita­tion of the Creed, and forms of Confession: Afterward it seemeth, that for helpe of memory, and to provide a remedy against bashfulnesse, that which the party repeated was put into questions propounded by the Mini­ster, answered briefly (as now the forme is) by the party; And what the Men grown answered by themselves, the same did Parents for their Children before the time of Higynus. It is the saying of worthy Hoo­ker, Eccl. Polit. lib. 5. sect. 64. That which a Guardian doth in the name of his Guard or Pupill standeth by naturall equity forcible for his benefit, though it be done without his knowledge. And shall we (saith he) judge it a thing unreasonable or in any respect unfit, that Infants by words which others utter should, though unwittingly, yet truly and forci­bly binde themselves to that whereby their estate is so assuredly bet­tered? Herewith Nestorius the Heretick was charged as having faln from his first profession and broken the promise which he made to God in the armes of others. Of such as prophaned themselves being Christians, with irreligious delight in the ensigns of Idolatry, Heathenish spectacles, shows, and Stage-plaies, Tertullian (to strike them the more deep) claimeth the promise which they made in Baptisme. Why were they dumb being thus challenged? Wherefore stood they not up to answer in their own defence, that such professions and promises made in their names were frivolous, that all which others undertook for them was but mockery and [Page 37] prophanation? That which no Heretick, no wicked liver, no impious despiser of God, no miscreant or malefactour, which had himselfe been baptised, was ever so desperate as to disgorge in contempt of so fruitfully received customes, is now their voice that restore (as they say) the ancient purity of Religion. Thus that worthy Hooker. We ask them (saith Saint Austin) Aug. Epist. ad Bonif. 43. which offer the Infants, and say: Beleeveth be in God? (who being of that age, knoweth not whether there be a God or no: They answer, He beleeveth: and so they answer unto every question which is asked. They became sick and were burthened, another sinning: so also being to be made sound they are saved, another confessing for them; as even the same Father observeth. Serm 10. de ver. Apost. And it is amplified by a late judici­ous writer, thus: Profession is either actuall, or virtuall: An actu­all profession of Repentance, and faith is required of them, who by the acts of reason formerly abused, have multiplyed their personall transgres­sions; but for Infants a virtuall profession is sufficient, and such a pro­fession we finde in them, in respect of their Propagation: They are not unfitly termed Beleevers, because they are borne within the Profession of Christianity: As also the Infants of Pagans are justly accounted Infidels, because they are born in the Profession of Infidelity: And if Saint Paul had disputed this case, I doubt not, but as he said of Levi, that in A­braham he paid tithes to Melchisedech; so he would have said, that the seed of the faithfull doe in their Parents professe the Faith of Christ. And then, as it followeth: Adde this (saith he) That this virtu­all profession is actuated by the promise of the Sureties, and Parents at Baptisme. And a little after, It is plain that that Ab-renunciation, is the profession of repentance, in the name of the Childe: so also the Recitation of the Articles, a profession of Faith, and reputed his, according to that well known saying of Saint Austin, peccavit in alio, credit in alio, as his offence, so his profession is the act of another, but his by Imputation: The same Father also saith, Aug. in Epi. 105 We confesse that as they be born again by the Ministery of Baptisers, so they beleeve by the hearts and mouths of the Confessours. And in another place, Serm. 10. de verb. Apostoli. Accommodat illis Mater Ecclesia aliorum pedes, ut veniant aliorum cor, ut credant: Our Mother the Church lendeth them other mens feet, that they may come: and other mens hearts that they may believe. Math. 9.2. Mat. 2.5. Luk. 5 20. And as the Palsie­man in the Gospell fared the better for the faith of his friends: so the little Children are by these means qualified for holy Baptisme: and being baptised are no lesse bound to observe the Faith of Christians, then the Jewes (infants, as well as others) bound [Page 38] themselves by Circumcision to the Law of Moses. For I testifie againe to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debter (saith the Apostle) to doe the whole Law, Gal. 5.3. Whereto agreeth that which the Scripture also saith, That he who names the name of Christ must depart from iniquity, 2 Tim. 2.19. We have therefore Sure­ties, who are examined, not altogether in regard of the Infant, but also in some respect in regard of themselves, that thereby it may appeare, whether they be fit to undertake for the Childe for which they come to answer. For they be Sureties for the Childe, and in the name of the Childe they do promise and vow that which the Childe is afterwards bound to perform. To which end is Confirmation after Baptisme, that when Children come to the years of discretion, and have learned; What their Godfathers and Godmothers promised for them, they may then themselves with their own mouths, and with their own consent openly before the Church ratifie and confirme the same, and live by their own Faith: their Godfathers and Godmothers being in the mean time bound to teach them what a solemn Vow, Promise, and Profession they have made by them their Sureties, who are not only speciall witnesses of their naming and receiving into the Church, as God said to his Prophet, Esa. 8.2. But are also undertakers and speci­all monitours for them. For if (as the Apostle teacheth, in the 1 Cor. 12.25) there is to be no schisme in the body, but that the members should have the same care one for another; then much more are they bound, who specially undertake for others.

In the phrase of some kind of men (as our Hooker speaketh) they use to be termed witnesses, as if (saith he) they came but to see and testifie what is done. It savoureth more of piety to give them their old accustomed names of Fathers and Mothers in God, where­by they are well put in minde what affection they ought to bear to­wards those innocents, for whose religious education the Church accepteth them as pledges. This therefore is their own duty: But because the answer which they make to the usuall demands of stipulation proposed in Baptisme is not [absolutely] their own, the Church doth best to receive it of them in that form which best sheweth whose the act is.

And thus much for satisfaction concerning Interrogatories in holy Baptisme: at which whilest you scoffe and are pleased to make your selfe merry, you see what a scorne you put upon the Church of God, which hath been acquainted with this [Page 39] custome long before the novell times of upstart Popery.

ANSWER.

By that figne made on our foreheads is intented that we should be put in remembrance of that Christian warfare which every one baptized is to enter into, and to continue in unto the end, if he will be saved, See Rom. 8.13. 1 Tim. 6.1. Revel. 2.10,11. & chap. 21.7,8. So that we are not signed with the signe of the crosse in token of any superstitious matter, but of a matter most necessary: For though we walk in the flesh, we do not warre after the flesh; but are com­manded to fight the good fight of Faith, to endure hardnesse as a good souldier of Jesus Christ, to be strong in the Lord and in power of his might, to put on the whole armour of God whereby we may be able to stand against the wiles of the Devill; and are taught not to glory, save in the crosse of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto us, and we unto the world: nor is it but written, that Michael and his Angels, fight against the Dragon and his Angels, Revel. 12.7. And therefore we are to acquit our selves like men, and must confesse the Faith of Christ crucified, and must take unto us the whole armour of God, whereby we may be able to [Page 40] withstand in the evill day, and having done all to stand, Eph. 6.13. Galat. 6.14. 1 Tim. 6.12. 2 Tim. 2.3, &c.

Now all these are main Christian duties, and who so unfainedly endeavoureth to keep them, needs not in any wise be offended at the signe used to put him in minde of them; but will rather thank God, that he is born in such a Church, where not only the true Christian life is taught by tongue and pen, but is also signified by some ceremony, for ones more remembrance of the same. The Israelites had their fringes on the borders of their garments, with a ribban of blew, that looking thereupon they might remember all the Commandements of the Lord, Num. 15.38,39. Nor hath the Christian Church but power to appoint Ceremonies, though the particulars be not as directly specified as was that to them of Israel: for which we have a text, in 1 Cor. 14.40. Shee therefore useth this godly Ceremony of signing with the signe of the Crosse, for a good signification, and transgresseth not, no more then those in the daies of Joshua, who built an Altar (for which they had no command in the Law of Moses) in regard they did it (as do we) for a good sig­nification, See Josh. 22.22.

And whereas you tell us of the mark of the Beast: The mark of the Beast is surely one thing; and the signe of the Crosse, another. They are threatned with damnation which receive the mark of the Beast: But is an Infant therefore damned because he reciveth at anothers hand the sign of the Crosse upon his forehead, and is no a­gent in it himself nor able to know either what's done or threatned? You shew your selfe a proper Divine, I promise you; and would broach such an inequality in the wayes of God, as is utterly con­demned in his holy word. The soule (saith the Lord) that sinneth, it shall dy: the Sonne shall not bear the iniquity of the Father, neither shall the Father bear the iniquity of the Sonne; the righteousnesse of the righte­ous shall be upon him, and the wickednesse of the wicked shall be upon him. Ezek. 18.20. which, if it make not against you, let your self be judge.

Besides, as we are free enough from receiving any mark on the hand at Confirmation; so are we as able to shew, that the signe of the Crosse was in use before the Beast that should impose it was born: yea, even whilest the Bishops of Rome were glorious Mar­tyrs, and the Church of God under the troubles of the persecuting Emperours; witnesse those proofs which are brought out of Tertul­lian, Origen, and Cyprian by the learned, to shew that they used it, In immortali lavacro, in the immortall laver. See Tertull. lib. de re­sur. [Page 41] Carnis. Cypr. Epist. 56. Jeu lib. 4. Epist. 6. & lib. de Lapsis sub init. & lib. ad Demetrianum: In the first of which quotations out of Cy­prian, the said Father councelleth, that the forehead be garded, that thereby the signe of God may be kept in safety; and in the se­cond, he speaks of the same signe upon the forehead; and in the third he saith, that by this Sacrament [viz. Baptisme] and signe we are enrolled. Nor doth Bishop Jewell but grant, that the signe of the Crosse among the Christians was had in great regard. Nei­ther when the Papists charge us with Novelties, can you better know how to answer their objection, then truly to tell them, that their abuses are new, but the things which they abused we retain in their primitive use, and forsake only the novell corruption: and for as much as this Ceremony was abused (as is confessed) in time of Popery, it doth plainly imply that it was well used before Popery; as King James of blessed memory hath very worthily affirmed in the conference holden at. Hampton Court.

ANSWER.

You come now to finde fault with the Prayers that are made at the adminstration of baptisme, and to pick some holes in their popish coats: for in your esteem they want not their popish errors. But shall I tell you, Saint Austin speaks in the same language that you mention to be in the first Prayer before baptisme: else he had never said in his 29 Sermon Detempore, That Christ in the waters of Jor­dan consecrated the waters for the reparation of humane kinde under bap­tisme. And a little after, Et quia (saith he) per universum mundum sacramentum Baptismi humano generi opus erat, omnibus aquis bene­dictionem [Page 42] dedit, quando in Jordanis alveum unica ac singulari piet ate descendit: Tunc enim Christum Dominum non tam lavit undo, quam lota est. That is, And because (saith he) the Sacrament of Baptisme was needfull for mankinde throughout the whole world, he gave a blessing to all waters, when in his only and fingular piety he de­scended into the river Jordan: For then the water did not so much wash Christ the Lord, as was washed by him.

The truth then is, that this is no popish errour in the judgement of so holy a Father, although now a dayes any thing be popery which a peevish precisian thinks good to stumble at.

As little (or lesse) cause have you to quarrell about the mysticall washing away of sinne: for a thing may be really performed, al­though the manner be mysticall, and the means such as doth not discover in what maaner the reallity of the thing is done. So that although it be true that the soules which are defiled with sinne, are washed in the blood of Christ, which Saint John affirmeth; yet the virtue and efficacy of his blood shed is conveighed and sealed to us by such wayes and means, as himselfe hath appointed: other­wise he had never said, that Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdome of God. Joh. 3.5.

But the water you say, doth but signifie. Signifie it doth: but to say it doth but signifie, is to assign unto it no end but only to teach the minde, by other senses, that which the word doth teach by hea­ring. And unto Infants which are not capable of instruction, who would not think it a meer superfluity that any Sacrament is admi­nistred, if to administer the Sacraments be but to teach receivers what God doth for them? But when our Saviour Christ saith, as in the text already mentioned, that except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdome of God; the truth is, that as the Spirit is a necessary inward cause; so Water is a necessary outward mean: why else are we likewise taught in another text, That Baptisme is a bath of Regeneration, Tit. 3.5. And that with wa­ter Christ doth purifie and clense his Church? Eph. 5.26. Let then the Sacraments have their due: for though they do not conferre grace ex opere operato, as the Papists teach, yet they conferre grace ex opere operantis, because the holy Ghost worketh both in and by those holy Rites and Institutions.

ANSWER.

And is it possible, that you should be offended with this Prayer, because the Minister prayeth that the Infant may receive remission of sinnes by spirituall regeneration? Why man, Remission of sinnes is plainly promised to them that receive Baptisme aright; as we read in Act. 2.38. It is therefore the Doctrine of the Catholick Church to beleeve one Baptisme for the remission of sinnes; as I am sure you know, and are bound unto it, except you mean to be an He­retick. Let it then (good Sir) be lawfull to pray for that which the Scripture promiseth, and to demean our selves as we ought in the use of these holy mysteries. Simon Magus indeed received no benefit by Baptisme, because he was not disposed aright: but yet neverthelesse where no obstacle comes between, even the sinnes of the Baptized are remitted.

Your false tenet is also again confuted by that which the devout Ananias said to Paul at the time of his Conversion; And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sinnes, cal­ling on the name of the Lord, Act. 22.16. See then your error now at full: not only remission spoken of, but also Prayer mentioned. If therefore your accusation be just, let any man that will but come and see as he ought to doe, be judge.

You have alledged Scripture, but very impertinently: and as for your first quotation, out of Rom. 5.1. there is no such thing there as you speak of, concerning sanctification by Faith: Put on your Spectacles, when you look again.

But I conclude this answer in the words of that worthy Hooker. Eccles. Polit. lib. 5. sect. 60 pag. 132. 133. There were (saith he) of the old Valentinian Hereticks, some which had Knowledge in such admiration, that to it they ascribed all, and so despised the Sacraments of Christ, pretending that as Ignorance had made us subject to all misery, so the full redemption of the inward man, and the work of our restauration, must needs belong unto Knowledge only. They draw neer unto this error, who fix­ing wholy their mindes on the known necessity of Faith, imagin that nothing but Faith is necessary for the attainment of all grace; Yet is it a branch of Beliefe that Sacraments are in their place no lesse required then beliefe it selfe.

ANSWER.

To be regenerated is to receive new motions of the minde by the holy Ghost, and to be made a new creature. Whereto agreeth that which Melancthon writeth, Melanct. in Loc. pag. 246. Cum spiritus sanctus novos motus, & novam vitam afferat, dicitur haec conversio Regeneratio. But this (you say) is done, not by the sprinkling of water in Baptism, but by hearing the Gospel Preached: and hereupon you point us to two places of Scripture. I shall shew you two other, which are more plain and proving; the one is, Jam. 1.18. the other is in 1 Pet. 1.23. In that of S. Iames, the words bethese; of his own will begat he us, with the Word of Truth, And in S. Peter, thus; Being born again not of corrup­tible, seed but of incorruptible by the Word of God which liveth & abideth forever. And yet notwithstanding, the scripture saith elswhere; That a man must be born again of Water and the Spirit, Joh. 3.5. And in another text, Baptisme is expresly termed the Laver of Regenera­tion, Tit. 3.5. to both which places in a former answer, I have al­ready pointed you. So that Regeneration is wrought, you see, by severall means: not by the word alone, but by Baptisme as well [Page 45] as by the word. The one you mention, the other is forgotten; nay, it is altogether denied by you. But be better advised, and crosse not the Scriptures, good Sir, I beseech you.

And for a full clearing, let it be known that what the word doth, in that which you mention, is to be understood of those who be A­dulti, or men grown; who have lost and forfeited their Baptismall Regeneration by actuall grosse sinnes not repented off, yeelded unto without any reluctancy, or striving against: the apprehensi­on of what they see in the world as soon as they come to knowledge leading them into a wrong habit both of desiring and doing, wher­by they walk not like children of the light; who must be therefore spoken unto as to men unregenerate, because a new kinde of rege­neration, at least a new degree thereof; must be wrought in them by the Ministery of the word, which by the Law brings them to repentance, and by the Gospel to Faith in Christ; these graces being further fortified by the second Sacrament, which upon due examination of themselves they are bound to receive. Dicitur qui­dam à nonnullis, concedendam non esse [...] Regenerationem, nisi per ver­bum, quod est semen Dei: Petrus quippe ait, priori Epist. cap. 1. nos esse renatos baudquaquam semine corruptibili, sed incorruptibili, quod est sermo Dei. Caeterum ad id respondemus, de adult is hominibus id esse intelligendum; De infantibus autem non it a rem se habere, nisi velimus Hebraeorum filios melioris facere sortis, quam Christianorum; as Peter Martyr speaketh, See Peter Mar, in his com­mon Places, pag. 838. That is, It is said indeed by some, that regeneration is not to be granted, but by the Word, which is the seed of God: because Peter saith, in the first Epist. chapter 1. That we are born againe in no wise by corruptible seed, but by incorruptible, which is the word of God. But to that we answer, That it is to be understood of men grown; but concerning Infants the case is otherwise, except we would make the children of the Hebrews of a better condition, then the Children of Christians. So then, al­beit we know this Sacrament of Baptisme to be effectuall to the re­generation of Infants, yet are we not to grant Baptismall grace in it self sufficient to the salvation of men grown. M^r. Tho. Bedf. in Sermon on Rom. 6,7. pag. 58. It is fitly therefore said by a learned Preacher, to be available for the state of infancy, to them a state of salvation, as the Church teacheth them to stile it, and to blesse God for it. But afterwards when they become actuall sinners, they must become actuall penitents. And as they have contracted a new guilt: so they must seek for a new grace: o­therwise the first will be found insufficient to salvation; Thus farre [Page 46] that author. And so you see how little you have gotten by your restriction of regeneration to the word alone: For though you were so peremptory in your assertion concerning it, as that you could say, The truth is, That the Children of God doe receive the Spirit of God to regenerate them, not by sprinkling of water in baptisme, but by bearing the Gospel Preached; yet the truth is, that Truth is no­thing neer you: for you affirme falsly, and will by degrees be found still to be full of so many malicious slanders, absurdities, lies and errors, as will make Orthodox and quiet men cry out that you are not so much tedious as troublesome both to the Church and State, as be also the rest of your crew which now adayes do use to shew their heads and faces with such audacious boldnesse, as makes it be admired that such spirits should be amongst us; and be the first (forsooth) for reformation. But I pray God work all for the best, and settle us so in peace, that Truth, Unity and Goncord may flou­rish amongst us: and seeing (oh Lord) the foolish ones do reproach thee daily, do thou arise and maintain thine own cause, in spight of all that shall oppose it.

ANSWER.

Well, and what of all this? Are not Infants baptized because they are born in originall sin? and is not originall sin washt away in baptisme? And if so, then who will not say that a childe baptized is undoubtedly saved? For though the root of corruption doth still remain, yet the guilt is pardened: and so, such a childe dy­ing before it hath procured a new guilt through the fructification of the branches which spring from the foresaid root, is by virtue of holy baptisme so washed as it may be saved. For baptisme is not a meer naked signe or badge of Christianity, but an ordinary and efficatious means of Regeneration; as I have already proved, out of plain texts of holy Scripture.

And where as you come in again, according to your wonted man­ner, with The truth is that they have no knowledge of sinne, nor of the wrath and curse of God due to sinne, nor of Christ, nor of the Articles of the Christian Faith, and therefore have neither faith nor repentance, without which none can be saved, it is further answered, in the words of one well able to satisfie, See M. T. Bedf. Treat. of the Sacr. pag. 192. viz. That in the Baptisme of Infants, the spi­rit worketh not as a morall agent to proffer grace to the will, but as a na­turall, or rather supernaturall Agent, to work it in the will, to put grace into the heart, conferring upon them seminall and initiall grace, which doth not presuppose Faith, but is in it selfe the seed of Faith; To parents converted, Baptisme conveyed (as did Circumcision to Abraham) a superaddition of further grace, to what they had extraordinarily received: But to their Children Baptisme conveyed (as did Circumcision to Isaac) the first seeds of grace, and regeneration: Adde this, that the Faith of the Parent is sufficient to qualifie the child for Baptisme, yea, for the grace of Baptisme; the childe I say, in whom as yet corruption of nature, being scant active, calleth for no act of personall grace to remove the barre of guilt: polluted he is, but by the act of another, not by consent of his own; therefore the faith of the Parent sufficeth to procure for the childe the Sa­crament, and the benefit thereof. Yea, and let me also add, That the right qualification of Godfathers and Godmothers, is here also to be regarded; as is formerly shewed in answer to the exceptions ta­ken against Interrogatories: where also is shewed how the profes­sion of Faith and repentance is performed.

But you go on, and tell us that they be the Insants of the Elect only which are undoubtedly saved, by virtue of Gods everlasting [Page 48] covenant of Grace: and yet not these neither, though born of such parents as you speak off, except they also be in the number of the Elect. In which, this is granted; that it is by virtue of Gods cove­nant with the Parents, that Infants have right of title or interest to baptisme, which at the first they were admitted unto, even as soon as ever their Parents being converted, were baptized. For, in this, the proceeding of the Converts was surely such when the Apostles baptized whole households, as when the covenant, and what was thereupon commanded concerning Circumcision, was made with Abraham. The covenant is made, and no sooner made, but he with all the males in his house were circumcised, young and old So doubtlesse no sooner was the covenant of grace ratified betwixt God and the Parents by baptisme, but presently their Children or Infants of the same family are accounted holy and Baptized. It is plain and evident, that unto those to whom Saint Peter preached, in the second chapter of the Acts, Act. 2.39. and bad them repent and be bapti­zed, he said The promise is made to you and your Children. Nor doth Saint Paul but also teach the same unto the Gentiles, in the first E­pistle written to the Corinthians, Cor. 7.14. the seventh chapter, at the four­teenth verse. And where the means is alike to all, Gods Election which you speak of, appears not to be but according to his fore­knowledge of the effects of his means graciously and of meer mer­cy offered to us. [...] Pet. 1.10. For though many be called, yet few are chosen; because all the called of God are not found with their wedding garments on, they do not make their calling and Election sure. But to be so searching as to put a difference among Infants, who can no waies hinder the efficacy of this Sacrament, or bar themselves of the benefit or fruit thereof, is more then you are able how to mani­fest. For though many of the Elect, that are now Saints in hea­ven, have brought forth children that are reprobates and damned soules in Hell: yet if they had done well, the Scripture tels us they had been accepted; as is particularly instanced in one of them whom you have mentioned, namely Cain, Gen. 4.7. And if here­by you think it followeth, that Election is not untill after Voca­tion: then for your further satisfaction, I must tell you, that in re­spect of Gods purpose and decree, Election is granted to be before the foundation of the World; but not re ipsa, not so in very deed. For both his Election and Calling to the Kingdome of Grace, and out of those his Election of some to the Kingdome of Glory, is according to his eternall purpose; yet not actuated, but in [Page 49] time, neither the one nor the other: Not the one, for I will call them my people which were not my people, and her beloved which was not beloved: Not the other, for When the King came in and saw one there which had not on a wedding garment, he commanded him to be bound hand and foot and cast into utter darknesse; Rom. 9.25. Hos. 2.23. Mat. 22.11,13. To which action declared by that Parable, our Saviour presently subjoyns this saying, Mat. 22.14. For many are called but few are chosen. Where note I pray you, that they are actually elected who are found to have the wedding gar­ment on, walking like Children of the light which they received by their Election unto grace, and do so come under the use of the means and are benefitted thereby, as that they make their Calling and Election sure: for such as these, are undoubtedly cloathed with the robe of Christs righteousnesse; they have put off the old Man, and by a true and a lively Faith (which by the means affor­ded them is wrought in them upon their submission and applying thereunto) they have put on the New: Christ dwells in them; yea, their life is hid with Christ, and when Christ who is their life shall appear, then shall they also appeare with him in glory. Coloss. 3.3,4.

And then next, as for that of Ishmael; It is true that he was the sonne of Abraham, as well as Isaac; but that he was damned, is more then I dare determin: especially seeing when Abraham prayed unto God, Gen. 17,18,20. that he might live in his sight; the Lord gave him answer, That as concerning Ishmael, he had heard him. If you say that this is meant only in regard of his temporall prosperity, then must it be also granted, that he is cast out of Abrahams house, and Aliud nihil erat, quam reprobari à typica illa hae­reditate terrae Canaan, quam Isaaco Deus assignabat. differenced from Isaac, not because he was a Reprobate (as you would have him) but because he might not be heire with Isaac. For, Cast out the bondwoman and her Sonne: the Sonne of the Bond­woman shall not be heire with the Sonne of the Freewoman, Gen. 21.10. All which comes to one and the same, and doth either way make well against you.

And last of all, as for that which you have concerning Jacob and Esau, how that God loved the one and hated the other; there be them who think that it may be taken as if it should be said, He lo­ved the one lesse then the other: and not as if it were absolutely meant of an hostile hate, or of an hatred to damnation; but of a negative hatred, which in this seems to be no other thing then a posthabi­tation concerning the land of Promise, and a deniall of the privi­ledges belonging to the birthright, whereby the one is preferred [Page 50] before the other. For as Scharpius mentions in his Symphonia, O­dium duo significat; Primò, affectum amori contrarium, vel hostilem animum, quo erga Esauum Deus affectus non fuit. Secundo significat aliquid in re aliqua negligere & alteri postponere; it a Deus Esauum odio habuit, cum illi Jacobum praetulit, & Esauum eaten us pra Jacobo neg­lexit, ut ad illum (licet primogenitum) ne jus primogeniturae, nec pro­miss terrae Canaani, nec origo Messiae secundum carnem pertinuerit. A like phrase of speech is in Deuteronomy (chap. 21.15.) where the words are concerning a man with two wives, the one whereof he is said to hate, the other to love; and this because the one was lesse loved th [...]n the other: for so we are taught in the 29 chap. of Gene­sis, at the 30, 31 verses, even concerning Rachel and Leah, the two wives of Jacob. After the same manner likewise are those words of our Saviour Christ to be understood, in Luk. 14.26. where he saith, that If any man come to me, and hate not his Father and Mother, &c. he cannot be my Disciple. Thus our Saviour: Now we know that a man is bound to honour his Father and Mother, to love them and not to hate them: and yet he that shall love either Father or Mother more then Christ, is not worthy of Christ, Matth. 10.37. And thus doth one place explain another.

But howsoever the meaning be; that what you mention is not to be referred precisely to the particular persons of Jacob and Esau (whereupon you loose that you strive for) is plain enough. First, because Gods Oracle to Rebecca was concerning two Nations, Gen. 25.23. where the words be these, And the Lord said unto her, two Nations are in thy womb, and two manner of pe [...]ple shall be separated from thy bowels: and the one people shall be stronger then the other people: and the elder shall serve the younger. Duae gentes, nen in seipsis, sed in suis patribus; secundum Prophetiam quoque ipsius Isaac, quando Mi­norom pro Majore benedixit. And secondly, because the Prophet Malachy declares the same; nay, he shews the accomplishment thereof in the Israelites and Edomites, the one whereof were dis­cended of Jacob, the other of Esau; Malach. chap. 1. The Para­phrase whereof, is as followeth. Ecce populus Israeliticus, ex Ja­cobo oriundus, populus iste est, quem singulariter dilexit Deus quippe cui ex mer [...] dilecti [...]e & gratia terram prom [...]ssam, melle & lacte fluentem, Abrahamo & Isaaco olim promissam, velut haereditatem possidendam dedit: Populus verò Edomeus ex Esau progenitus, populus iste est, quem Deus amore isto singulari complecti & favore tam prolixo adficere noluit, quippe cui horrida & inculta loea, montes Seir vastos saxosis, [Page 51] desertosque, & cum fertili ista terra promissa mini [...] conserendos, ha­bitandos dedit, ut servilis borum, filialis istorum conditio, juxta prae­gressum de illorum capitibus or aculum, clare elucesceret. And was it not, that out of both these, Saint Paul cited that which you have aymed at? and in Saint Pauls Epistles are some things hard to be un­derstood, as Saint Peter tels us, 2 Pet. 3.16. Wherefore let me ad­vise you, not to be rash in citing from thence things hard to be understood: nor come with things obscure, against what is else­where plain and manifest; for then you will neither benefit your self, nor truly instruct others. The elder shall serve the younger: un­derstand that, not of the persons of Esau and Jacob, for Esau never served Jacob; but of the two Major populus serviet Minori, id est, Primoge­nitus populus haeres non trit terrae Canaan, sed secundogeni­tus. Propositum enim Dei erat, vocare semen quos & quales vult. Nations which were to come of them, as the words of God declare; which said not to Rebecca, Two men, but two Nations are in thy womb. And then whereas the Apostle presently subjoyneth, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated, it is not to be taken as if it were spoken before the chil­dren were born, as was the former Oracle: for this was said many ages after by the Prophet Malachy, and spoken likewise not of two men, but of two people, as in the said Prophet is apparent. Besides the very phrase of speech declareth that this was not (as the other) spoken before the Children were born: for then it had not been in the Preterperfect, but in the Future tense: So that all the reference which this can have unto the former, is but to shew how Gods purpose took effect in preferring the Nations which came of Jacob, before the people which came of Esau, which he terms love and hatred, and is found to be so in the sence already mentioned.

But whereto serve those examples, if they be not to shew that God irrespectively decreed to save the persons of some of them in particular, and absolutely in particular, according to the Coun­cell of his will, to damn the others? Verily, he that shall read the Scriptures, and find it Ezek. 18 32. & ch. 33.11. 1 Tim 2.4. 2 Pet 3.9. written that God would not the death of him that dyech, would have all to be saved, and is not willing that any one should perish, will scarce be perswaded that God hath absolutely decreed any mans damnation: I answer therefore, Gods love to mankinde is such, that not only is the promise of Grace U­niversall, but also free, and taken by Faith alone: insomuch that the Apostle to the Romans plainly excludes all prerogative of the flesh and merit of workes, and concludes that every one who be­lieves shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between [Page 52] the Jew and the Gentile; For he that is Lord over all, is rich un­to all that call upon him. And hereto serve those famous Types and Heads of Nations which he propoundeth, when he brings in the sonnes of Abraham and of Isaac already mentioned: which types (as Hemmingius speaketh) Hemming. Syn­tagm. capit. De Praedestinat. sect 32. are to be fitted after this manner, viz. that in certain commodities belonging to this life, all which are born of the seed of Abraham and Isaac, are not reckoned for their sonnes: Much lesse in things spirituall are they accounted as sons, who draw their originall from those holy Fathers. Wherefore, even as in profits and priviledges belonging to this life, they only are reputed the sonnes of whom the holy Patriarchs had the pro­mises: So in things Spirituall, they only are to be reckoned as sons of Abraham, whose faith is in the free promise; and not those who exult and swell by reason of the Prerogative of the flesh, as did the carnall Jews whose rejection he sheweth to be just, notwithstan­ding they could say we have Abraham to our Father. *Similiter nunc propositum hoc Dei manet, quo Judaeos legem praefracte secta­ri volentes, licet illi praeferri de­bere videantur Gentilibus, se­men vocare non vult, sed omnes & solos eos, sive Judaei sunt, qui Evangelio filii ejus credunt, et si hi illis deterio­res & indignio­res esse videan­tur.

ANSWER.

When our Church teacheth her Children to say, I believe in God the sonne, who hath redeemed me and all mankinde, she hath respect to the ample latitude of the merit of Redemption wrought by Jesus Christ; which is such, and so large, as that it extends it selfe to all: it excludes none, but hath satisfied Justice, and made a way for all men to attain unto mercy. For if God be not willing that any one should perish, as Saint Peter speaketh; 2 Pet. 2.9. but that all men should be saved, as Saint Paul to Timothy declareth: 1 Tim. 2.4. then surely the Son of God, who came to seek and to save that which was lost, and to do the will of his Father, laid down his life in common for all, that thereby a way might be made for all to attain unto mercy. Christ indeed gave his life for his sheep, and laid it down for his friends, but not for them only: For He is the propitiation for our sinnes, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world, 1 Joh. 2.2. And well might he say he gave his life a ransome for many, and that his blood was shed for many, who shed his blood for all, and gave himselfe a ran­some for all, 1 Tim. 2.6. Nor do we but read, that Judas was one of them to whom Christ said, My blood is shed for you, Luk. 22.20. and yet Judas was a Reprobate. To which agreeth that of Saint Peter, concerning some who should bring in privily damnable He­resies, even denying the Lord that bought them, 2 Pet. 2.1. And again saith another scripture, Of how much sorer punishment shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the Covenant wherewith he was sanctified, an un­holy thing, and hath done despite to the spirit of Grace? Hebr. 10.29. And in the second chapter of the same Epistle, the Apostle saith ex­presly, Heb. 2.9. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower then the Angels, for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man; And again, The Lord (saith the Prophet) hath laid on him the iniquity of us all, Esa. 53.6. And I (saith Christ) if I be lifted up from the Earth, will draw all men unto me, Joh. 12.32. And in the 2 Corinth. 5.14. Christ dyed for all. And in Tit. 2.11. The grace of God that bringeth Salvation, hath appeared to all men. And in Rom. 5.18. As by the offence of one, judgement came upon all men to condemnation: even so by the righteous­nesse of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life: as our common translation reads it.

And will you, notwithstanding all this, deny that the price paid by Christ, was not paid for all, nor made for all? The truth is, that it hath not been beneficiall to all: and in that respect our Saviours words are manifest, that he shed his blood for many. And so the A­postle likewise meaneth; expresly declaring, that we trust in the li­ving God, who is she Saviour of all men, specially of those that beleeve, 1 Tim. 4.10. you see then that God excludes none, but those that exclude themselves by unbeliefe. For though Christ hath not gai­ned all, yet neverthelesse he hath dyed for all; as Chrysost. speaketh. Chrysost. in Rom. 14. He hath done that which was his part to do: if therefore others will not doe that which is theirs, they must (notwithstanding Christs death) be damned. Ideo passus est, ut tolleret peecatum Mun­di. Si quis autem in Christum non credit, generali beneficio ipse se fro­dat: ut siquis clausis fenestris radios solis excludat, saith Saint Am­brose: Ambr. Serm. 8. in Psal. 118. That is, Christ therefore suffered that he might take away the sinne of the world. But if any one believe not in Christ, he defrauds him­self of that generall benefit: as any one, by having his windows shut, ex­cludes the light of the Sunne. In medio Temple misericordia est, non in angulo aut diversorio: In communi posita est, offertur omnibus, & nemo illius expers nisi qui renuit, as saith Saint Bernard Bern. Serm. in purif. pag. 101. which is as if he should say, Although Christs merits are common to all, and that he keeps open house to all commers; yet those only have full benefit by them that lay hold upon him. God loved the World indeed when he gave his only begotten sonne: howbeit, they only shall not perish but have life everlasting, who believe on him, Joh. 3.16. So then, that Christs precious blood hath greater efficacy or force in some then in others, is not the fault of him who did so well impart it, but of them who do so ill imploy it. And so, all this while, no er­rour in our Common Catechisme.

ANSWER.

This is answered before: and therefore, to avoid prolixity and repetition, I shall justly passe it over.

ANSWER.

We teach indeed that Christ hath ordained in his Church, two Sacraments only as generally necessary to Salvation, viz. Baptisme and the Supper of the Lord; and will you be he that shall blame us for it; These two, are said by the Ancients to flow out of Christs side, when hanging upon the Crosse for us, the souldier with his speare let out from thence Water and Blood, Joh. 19.34. It is therefore said, that This is he that came by Water and Blood even Jesus Christ; not by Water only, but by Water and Blood, 1 Joh. 5.6. And will you be he which shall not grant these two legitimate and true born Sacraments to be generally necessary to Salvation? Why then are they not left, either to be used, or not to be used, ad placitum, as every one pleaseth? The Scripture I am sure grants no such free­dome: for generally and in ordinary they are necessary, and so commanded. If therefore the Spirit doe convey grace to any with­out the use of the Sacraments, this is to be accounted extraordina­ry; no man in common is to rely upon it, but to use the ordinary meanes which Christ hath appointed. For what is sometimes done ex parte Dei, on Gods part, in cases not of wilfull neglect or con­tempt, but in cases of desire when the want proceeds from inevi­table necessity, is not to be reckoned ex parte nostra, or by us, e­nough at other times to rest upon. Understand then this phrase, generally necessary, to be as much as commonly and in ordinary.

And as for the morenesse, or super-duality of the Sacraments, which you say is here intimated: we answer, that in a large significa­tion there may be, not only seven, but many Sacraments; but strictly and properly no more then these; only two, and true Sacraments. [Page 56] If our Church teach otherwise, then speak and spare not: till then be silent, and spare your breath to coole your broath; for there, it may be of more use then it can be here; especially if you could but remember what is delivered in that Homily which declareth, that Common Prayer and Sacraments ought to be administred in a known tongue. This is all that I shall need to say; your scruple is cleared farre enough.

ANSWER.

Here is nothing more then what we have had before, excepting a word or two about the keeping of Gods commandements, which you say no man is able to doe of himselfe. And doth not the very Catechism also teach the same, in the question next before the Lords Prayer? you are blinde, sure; else you might have seen it. Let me therefore intreat you to look better about you, and although you cannot see wood for trees, be not (good Sir) angry at it.

ANSWER.

This of the conjured Ghost pleaseth you (sure) very mightily, as well as that other of the witch, which you have mentioned, more then once: but harp on; The string which you harp so much up­on, [Page 57] will break at last, and helpe but little, although for the present it may be used by the Minstrels of your own sect, to make the sim­ple dance.

ANRWER.

I verily think, that if what you here mention, had been a thing of moment, it had been amended when it was urged in the Confe­rence at Hampton Court, where so judicious a King (as our late King James of blessed memory) heard all the grievances which then were brought: among the which, this in particular was one. And verily, this is certain, that words in the Originall do many times admit of a diverse and doubtfull reading, and may indifferently be taken either the one way or the other: as is easie to instance, even in one of those Scriptures which you have mentioned. For whereas you say Phineas prayed, are put in for Phineas executed judgement; I answer, the originall word in that very text, hath diverse signifi­cations, and is therefore translated diversly: for in the Septuagint it is, Phineas did propitiate or pacifie God: in the Chalde, he prayed; And in later ones, it is translated, He executed judgement.

And as For the next, if it cannot be answered with the like faci­lity, then that which followeth may: for whereas the words are barely turned, The rod of the ungodly commeth not on the lot of the righteous; you can but open the meaning, and say That it commeth not, so as to rest or abide upon it; and yet commeth neverthelesse.

After this you tell us of another pervertion, in the Epistle on Munday in Easter week, where these words, Israel remembred, are put in for He, that is, God remembred. But shall I tell you, there is no such thing at all in that Epistle: you doe but dream sure, or take your wares upon trust; it had been else in the Epistle on the Mun­day before Easter, where we read indeed, thus: Yet remembred Israel the old times of Moses: which (as you say) should be He, that is, God remembred. This is your glosse; and yet the Geneva noteth, that the word Hee hath relation to the people of Israel, who be­ing afflicted called to remembrance Gods benefits, which he had bestowed upon their Fathers in times past: which is also the way that is taken in our translation used in the Service-book, both in this and in some such other passages as are either doubtfull, or stand in need of explanation, which are rather rendredin a mean between the liberty of paraphrasts & literall rigor, of an obscure translation, then otherwise; and hath ever been judged the fittest for publike au­dience, witnesse the practise of all Nations, Greeks, Latines, Persians, Syrians, Aethtopians, Arabians, as Hooker noteth.

And so also for that other [of not obedient, & of not disobedient] it is much after the same manner: & translated as S. Mathew once transla­ted a place out of the Prophet Mich: For in Mic. 5.2. we read that Bethlem was the least, Minima existendo in ducibus Jehudae: and yet in Matth. 2.6. we finde it turned, Thou Bethlem not the least; the one regarding the quantity of the place, the other the dignity. So in this of the Psalmist, They were not obedient is true, if it be ap­plyed to Pharoah and the Aegyptians: although not of such an ex­act truth as the very letter of the originall verity may import, by referring the speech to Moses and Aaron, as the most doe; or to the Signes wrought in Aegypt, as Junius doth; For then the righter reading is, They were not disobedient. So that you see, both upon what ground this reading standeth; and upon what ground it may be altered, if authority think fitting so to doe, unto whom I leave it.

ANSWER.

What an uncharitable and a rash accusation have we here? I think that unlesse the Devill himself should interpret intentions, a worse interpretation could seldome have been hatched.

ANSWER.

These 144000 were the particular true members of the Church militant in the daies of Antichrist, set down in a mysterious num­ber not easie to be understood: and were (without question) that seed of the woman mentioned, chap. 12.17. with whom the Beast should make war, chap. 13.7. yea these were all those faithfull peo­ple of God, who from the beginning of Antichrists reign (which be­gan about the year of our Lord 606, as is not improbable) profes­sed the truth, even untill the daies of the Reformation of the Church afterwards mentioned; at which time these first fruits, day by day, were more & more increased; yea, these being contemporary with the beast, do plainly teach, that God had many thousands of his true worshippers, even in the darkest daies of the great Antichrist, when [Page 60] there seemed very few or none remaining: For the Papacy creeping in, was like a botch or filthy soare, by which the faire face of the woman, in Chapter the twelfth, was over spread. The hea­then persecuting Emperours were before this, even whilest the said woman, glorious in the Primitive times, was cloathed with the Sunne, Crowned with a Crown of twelve Stars, and trampled the Moon under her feet. Nor doth this but likewise seem to be pa­rallell to those dayes of Elijah when there were 7000 scattered throughout the tribes of Israel, who were unknown: For so in these times there were many thousands, some in one Country, some in another, who did distaste the Idolatries & Superstitions of Rome: and with these the Lamb was present. Wherefore from hence we may easily give answer to that question, which the Papists, to no purpose, have often urged again us, saying; Where was your Church before Luther? It was amongst them like an handfull of wheat in a Mountain of chaffe. For this place (as in the 12 chapt. before) teacheth, that the Church hath had her latency, and yet was not extinguished no more then the Sunne when he is hid by the cove­ring of some darke or thick cloud. For look by how much the want of sincerity, and increase of the Popes usurped tyranny pre­vailed, by so much was the Orthodox Church (being true pro­fessours of the primitive purity) obscured; and in respect of a grea­ter multitude) so suppressed and clouded over, that a man would think there were scarce any such to be found at all. But true it is, they were but respectively invisible: and therefore persecuted by the Popish faction, through whom their faith was not seldome sea­led with blessed martyrdome. And this chiefely is all that is meant by the latency of the true Church, and flying of the woman into the wildernesse.

ANSWER.

Here's still more of your little charity: but me thinks you ra­ther might have said, that as 144000. were seen standing with the Lamb upon mount Sion; so the blessed Innocents, as on this day murthered by cruell Herod, were witnesses to the Lamb, not by speaking but by suffering for Christ, and so both his name and his Fathers name were written in their foreheads; and their voice was like the sound of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, because in Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, weeping, and great mourning: and their crying was a song, a dolefull ditty to their Parents eare, Rachel weeping for her Children, and would not be comfor­ted because they were not, but yet a pleasant and pretious ditty in Gods eare, so sweet as the voyce of Harpers harping with their harps. Nor was this their sighing but as a new song, because they were the first fruits of Martyrs unto God. They may be also said to follow the Lamb whithersoever be went, Cant. 5.10. because as the Lamb was white and rud­dy; so they were white in their innocency, being Virgins in their chastity, without any guile in their mouth, or guile in their life: but in respect of their blood-shed for the Lamb, they were bloody, red and bleeding.

So then you see, that although the Epistle was Historically true in what was afterwards, as in the former answer I have explained: yet fit to be read on that day, which you call Childermasse day, in allusion to what was then.

ANSWER.

This which you now mention is well spoken, and not amisse. For true it is, that at the fixt verse, the second part of the Chapter be­ginneth, wherein the downfall of Antichrist is proclamed by three preaching Angels; the first whereof is said to fly through the midst of Heaven, having an everlasting Gospell to Preach. By which and those other Angels following, we are not to understand any coele­stiall Angel in respect of the accomplishment of this Prophesie; but rather some speciall Ministers of God, whom the Lord stirred up as his instruments to work a reformation in the Church. And yet I deny not but that Saint John saw the representation of this (in that heavenly theater wherein his visions were represented to him) in the seeming shape and person of a celestiall Angel: which was but to shew, that at the time appointed, God intended the accom­plishment of this and the like appearances, by such instruments as were pre-ordained for the same purpose.

ANSWER.

The Corinthians, you know, are termed Pauls Epistle written in his heart: an Epistle, for that they were in stead of an Epistle; as Theophylact observeth. So this Scripture, howsoever not an Epistle properly, may stand in stead of an Epistle. For the denomination given to this and other portions of Scripture, taken out of the Pro­phets, Acts, and Revelation, is retained in respect of the greater part which is taken out of the Epistles, and not because they be in themselves Epistles properly: which why it should be quarrelled with, is more then needeth.

But you go on, and tell us That it is a Prophesie of a battell fought in Heaven, between Michael and his Angels, and the Dragon and his [Page 63] Angels, and of the victory that Michael and his Angels, had over the Dragon and his Angels; and of the casting of the Dragon and his Angels out of Heaven; all which is true, and not at all to be denyed.

ANSWER.

Concerning this warre in Heaven, you speak well enough. For in respect of the vision seen it was shewed in that heaven or heaven­ly theater where Saint John saw the representation of these things, as I think need not be denyed; and not in heaven it self: For in hea­ven properly taken there is no fighting, the warfare of those who inhabite there is quite ended, they are all triumphant, they rest in joyfull peace. But in respect of the accomplishment, there is cause enough to grant that we are pointed either to the Church of God (which is a kinde of heaven upon earth) or else to that hea­ven whither the womans Childe was taken up, after his mother had brought him forth: for the Dragon (in the Imperiall Dra­gons, or heathen persecuting Emperours) raigned over the Church till then, I mean till Constantine subdued them; who han­ged up on high over the gates of his Palace, a Table wherein was painted a Dragon, which lay thrust through with a dart, under his own and his subjects feet.

ANSWER.

This is also reasonably well expounded; but not full enough: For the accomplishment it selfe sheweth, that Constantine is chief­ly to be comprehended amongst those of Michaels Angels, who fought with the Dragon and his Angels; as (if I were to write purposely of these things) I could shew at large.

ANSWER.

Not the Popes: for this was a vision of what was done before their times. The vision which belongs to them, is in the next chap­ter: and in the account of times came not in thus soone. In the rest you speak right enough: For though that old Serpent which is called the Devill and Sathan, be the Dragon primarily; yet neverthelesse the instruments of his fury are secondarily termed Dragons too, as well as he: for which we may see the Scriptures, in Jer. 51.34. Ezek. 29.3. Psal. 74.13,14. Esa. 27.1. and chap. 51.9.

And so also for his Angels, not onely the infernall Hags of Hell are meant, but even the wicked men who were of his side, and hel­ped to fight against the truth: for which we may likewise see the Scriptures, in Pro. 17.11. Revel. 2.10. and chap. 9.14.

ANSWER.

You extend again the Vision too farre, in bringing it down so low as the Popes and popish Princes: For it is a Prophesie of a warre begun and finished before the Dragon went forth to make warre with the remnant of the womans seed; which warre was in­deed in the dayes of Antichrist, and is found to have relation first of all to those cruell warres of the Beast against the Albigenses and Waldenses, together with all such as were (if any were) called by other name professing the true worship of Christ, and hath hitherto continued still against the Saints, both in Martyrdomes, Inquisiti­ons, [Page 65] Massacres, and the like: but the horns of the beast falling from him by degrees, shall at the last give an end to this warre; and being become partners with the Saints (as many of them already are) shall turne their forces against the Beast, as in the 17. Chapter may be seene. And for your better instruction, you may see it in the end of the 12. Chapter, how that S. John saith, he saw the Dra­gon standing upon the Sea-shore, or upon the sand of the Sea; which was not onely a good while after the Battell that he had with Mi­chael, but was also for the raising up of the Beast to doe that which you here mention to be done by the Popes and Popish Princes.

ANSWER.

Here still you faile, by carrying the accomplishment lower then the dayes of Constantine. The successe of Christian Princes against Antichrist, and of faithfull Preachers against false Teachers, belongs to other visions, and cannot be here intended, unlesse you had the faculty of making one thing serve for all purposes.

ANSWER.

The further you goe, the more wrong still in your interpretati­on. But was it so, that you could not have a fling at the Arch­bishop of Canterbury, except you streine a Prophecy? You had bet­ter sure have let him alone, then by a false glosse corrupt the text: for in this very passage you have done no lesse, as is more then ma­nifest; nor doe my former Answers but declare it.

ANSWER.

Here is againe another small dram of your little Charity: the accusation is the same with a former; and the exposition not agree­ing with the scope of the Prophecy: For if you study the Revela­tion throughly, you will finde this to be a vision of the Primitive times, and not to be extended so low as Antichrist, or to the successe of sound Christians fighting against him.

Besides, as for the Churches meaning, you might have soberly judged this to be the meaning of the Church in ordering to have this Scripture read at the time appointed; That albeit Christ be fi­gured and signified to vs under the type of Michael; yet even the Angell Michael is understood to have appeared in the vision shew­ed to S. John, with an host of other Angels fighting against the Dra­gon and his Angels, representing thereby Christ with his heaven­ly Angels, and his servants on earth, to sight against the Devill with his Angels and wicked complices, and to prevaile against them; as was historically fulfilled in the dayes of Constantine, who with his souldiers did undoubtedly fight under Christs banner, and was in­couraged thereunto by miracle, and thereby made Generall upon Earth of this holy warfare: for behold a bright Crosse appeared in [Page 67] the Heavens about mid-day, with this inscription on it, Vide lib. 1. de vita. Constant. cap. 22. In hoc sig­no vinces, under this ensigne thou shalt overcome: The truth of which miracle was confirmed to Eusebius by Oath, even from Constantine himself. And at the sight of this, Constantine being admonished of the Christian Religion, suffered himselfe to be taught in Chri­stianity, and had the Banners of his Souldiers proportioned ac­cording to the fashion of the Crosse, with two Greek letters (X and P) made upon them, which should stand to signifie the name of Christ. After all which, when the warre was ended (the divine providence thus ordering these occurrences, that thereby we might learn the accomplishment of this Prophesie) he took order that a table should be hanged up on high over the gates of his Palace, wherein a Dragon was painted, which lay thrust through with a Dart, under his own and his Subjects feet; as a little before I have already mentioned, and do now cite for my Authors, Eusebius, Socrates and Theodoret. Euseb. de vit. Const. lib. 3. cap. Socrat. lib. 1. c. 6. Theod. lib. 1. cap. 15. In every of which places of the said au­thors, the story mentioned stands recorded.

AND thus hitherto I have followed you step by step, and balked nothing which your pretions Dialogue hath afforded. You make a sally next against new Orders, which because they are upon their tryall, I passe them over: heartily wishing, that under the feare of hatching Popery, we may be better setled then to part with piety. For whilest these things have been in question, the ruder sort are every day more and more irreverent. But the God of Heaven put it into the hearts of the high Court of Parlia­ment to look into it, and to make the whole kingdome know that the Lord is King both of Heaven and Earth, and therefore more to be honoured then any King, nay then all Kings else: Psal. 99.1. The Lord is King (saith David) be the people never so unpatient: he sitteth between the Cherubins, be the Earth never so unquiet. Ps 96 3,4,5,6,7,8,9. Declare his honour unto the heathen: and his wonders unto all the people. For the Lord is great, and cannot worthily be praysed: he is more to be feared then all Gods. As for the Gods of the heathen they are but Idols: but it is the Lord that made the Heavens. Glory and worship are before: power and honour are in his Sanctuary. Ascribe unto the Lord (oh yee kindred of the people) ascribe unto the Lord worship and power. Ascribe unto the Lord the honor due unto his name: bring presents and come into his Courts. O worship [Page 68] the Lord in the beauty of holinesse: let all the Earth stand in aw of him. Ps. 122.1. I was glad when they said unto me, let us go into the house of the Lord. Ps. 93.6. Thy testimonies, O Lord, are sure: Holinesse becommeth thine house forever. Psal 95 6. O come, let us worship, and fall down, and kneele before the Lord our Maker. Ps 86.8,9,10. Among the Gods there is none like unto thee (O Lord) there is none that can doe as thou dost. All nations that thou hast made shall come and worship thee, O Lord: and shall glorifie thy name. For thou art great and dost wondrous things: thou art God alone. Psal 5.7. I will come into thy house, in the multitudes of thy mercy: and in thy feare will I worship towards the Temple of thy holinesse. Ps 63,2,3,4,5,6. My Soule thirsteth for thee, my flesh also longeth after thee: in a barren and dry land where no water is, Thus have I looked for thee in holinesse: that I might behold thy power and glory. For thy loving kindnesse is better then the life it self: my lips shall praise thee. As long as I live will I magnifie thee on this manner: and lift up my hands in thy name. My Soule shall be satis­fied, even as it were with marrow and fatnesse: when my mouth praiseth thee with joyfull lips. Ps 74.2,3,4,5,6,7. O thinke upon thy Congregation: whom thou hast purchased and redeemed of old. Thinke upon the tribe of thine inhe­ritance: and mount Sion wherein thou hast dwelt. Lift up thy feet, that thou maist utterly destroy every enemy: which hath done evill in thy San­ctuary. Thine adversaries roare in the middest of thy Congregations; and set up their Banners for tokens. He that hewed timber afore out of the thick trees: was known to bring it to an excellent worke. But now they breake down all the carved worke thereof: with axes and hammers. All which being spoken by a man after Gods own heart, is of cur­rent weight, and without exception. I may therefore turn againe now to follow what is next in the Dialogue. And that which is next, is about the order prescribed by the Church in the Visitation of the sick: in which because you have some exceptions, the same with what we have heard from you already, in certain other pas­sages, shall not here be again repeated.

ANSWER.

And why (I pray) doe you quarrell with this? Christ taught his Disciples so to salute the house into which they entred, Math: 10.12,13. and Luk. 10.5,6,7. And may not the Ministers since those times doe the like, but be blamed for their labours? You fight with your own shaddow, and quarrell without a cause: as is most apparent. There be six duties of charity, of which our Saviour will speak at the latter day; and to come and visite the fick is one of them, Math. 25.35,36. Nor is it in the Minister, but even a work also of his office: And therefore, being sent for, he commeth to pray with, instruct, comfort, and strengthen the sick party. For Is any man sick among you, let him call for the Elders of the Church, and let them pray over him Jam. 5.14. This order then is not with­out a scripture rule.

But you have a further quarrell; and that's against our absol­ving the sick person from all his sinnes, in the name of the Father, Sonne, and Holy Ghost. Why man, if it be done in the name of the blessed Trinity, it is not by any primary or originall power that is in our selves. For the Bishops and Pastours of the Church doe not forgive sinne by any absolute power of their own (for so only Christ their Master forgiveth sinnes) but ministerially, as the servants of Christ, and stewards, to whose fidelity their Lord and Master hath committed his Keyes. If you aske me how Christ came by this power, seeing none can forgive sinnes but God, I answer, first that he had it by Commission from God; it was a power given him by his Father: and so we reade, in Joh. 20.21. Secondly, he had it through the Union of the God-head and Man­hood into one person: For though it be true, that as he was God he had it of himselfe; yet not so, as he was Man: For as he was Man he had it by virtue of the Union from God. Now this he transfers further: Peter had a promise that the Keyes of the King­dome of Heaven should be given; but this promise was not accom­plished untill afterwards, not untill the day of Christs Resurrection: whereupon we reade, in as plain words as may be, That the same day at night, which was the first day of the weeke, and when the doores were shut where the Disciples were assembled for feare of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and said unto them, Peace be unto you. [Page 70] And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his sides▪ Then were the Disciples glad when they had seen the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: As my Father sent me, so send I you. And when he had said that, he breathed on them, and said unto them, receive the holy Ghost. Whosoevers sinnes yee remit, they are remetted unto them: and whosoevers s [...]nnes ye retaine, they are retained. Joh. 20.19,20,21,22,23.

When this promise was made to Peter, although spoken to him in particular, yet not with an intent to invest him solely in the thing promised, as even the sequel and accomplishment thereof fully pro­veth. Howbeit, because he by his Confession gave answere for the rest, and was the speaker for them, when Christ said, But whom say ye that I am? therefore doth Christ direct his speech to him a­gaine in particular; who as he spake for them all, so he is promised the Keyes in the behalfe of them all; See Mat. 16.15,16,17.18,19.

This then sheweth, that S Peter was indued with no more pow­er then the rest of the Apostles; and therefore the Pope can claime no more then another Bishop: and in that regard our Ordination is lawfull and right, valid and firme, although we goe not over to Rome to fetch it: For so long as we have Bishops of our owne, con­secrated and installed into their Office, as Bishops alwayes have been, there is no doubt or scruple to be made. Knowing therefore that when we take Ordination we also receive an holy and Ghost­ly authorioy, not only in having the word of Reconciliation, and dispensation of the Sacraments committed unto us, but also of bind­ing and loosing, or of remitting and retaining sinnes; we may not suffer our Church to be d [...]famed, nor the Ministers thereof to be accounted Antichristian. For hath our Saviour said, Whose sinnes yee remit, they are remitted; and whose sinnes yee retain, they are retained: and shall any mortall man deny it? His words are not, Whose sinnes yee signifie to be remitted, but Whose sinnes yee remit; which the Author of the Practice of Piety (no Papist sure) hath well observed. Nor is the same but granted by a distinction put between declare and pro­nounce: For, to declare is chiefly to shew Gods goodnesse towards penitent sinners, which every good Christian may doe, when he sees occasion, for the comfort of his brother according to the truth of Gods gratious promises: but to pronounce, is to give sentence as a Judge, in the name of him who hath the authority primarily in himselfe.

You speak of the key of Knowledge, and explaine it well enough; [Page 71] but that is not the sole key of binding and loosing, and therefore not a thing which comes fully home to the purpose. Whensoever therefore any sick person, or burthened sinner shall unbosome him­selfe to one of Gods ministers, and shall heare him pronounce thus, By the authority which Christ hath committed to me, I doe absolve thee from all thy sinnes, in the name of the Father, and of the Sonne, and of the holy Ghost; then may the said Sinner rest assured that his sinnes are forgiven him, and that God doth ratifie in Heaven what his Priest pronounceth on Earth. The like may be said of one who for the present sees not sufficiently into himselfe, but by the striking of him with the terrours of the Law is brought to the full sight of his wretchednesse, and by the glad tidings of the Gospell is raised up againe, and kept from desperation, namely, That then God doth fully speake peace unto his soule, when by the like De­puty he shall heare the like sentence of absolution.

Protestants (saith Bishop Protest. Appeal p. 254. Morton) doe greatly approve the use of private and voluntary confession, when a man either suspecteth the unlawfulnesse of any action, or else when he groaneth under the sensible guilt of a troubled soule, and shall desire the way of cu­ring his disease, by the comfortable pronunciation of Gods pardon from the mouth of him who hath the commission thereof from God. And in another place, Idem, in his Appeale, p. 270. The power of Absolution (saith he) whe­ther it he generall or particular, whether in publike or in private, it is pro­fessed in our Church: where both in henpublike Service is proclaimed Par­don and Absolution upon all Penitents, and a private applying of Abso­lution unto particular Penitents by the office of the Minister; and greater power then this no man hath received from God: thus he. Bishop Ʋsher likewise against a Jesuites Challenge, at the 109 page saith, He hath done us open wrong in charging us to deny, that Priests have power to for­give sinnes. And he gives a reason irrefragable, as another great Scholar termes it, because he mentions hereupon, that The formall words which our Church requireth to eused in the Ordination of a Mi­uister, are these; Whose sinnes thou dost forgive, they are forgiven; and whose sinnes thou distretaine, they are retained. The execution of which authority accordingly is put in practise in the Visitation of the Sicke. And shall I further tell you, you shall finde it noted in the Practise of Piety, that Doctor Holland absolved Doctor Rainolds at his death; who not being able to speake, kissed the hand wherewith he was absolved. And in the Conference at Hampton Court, the said particular Absolution in the Common-Prayer-booke being [Page 72] read, His King James of blessed me­mory. Majesty, who was indeed a second Salomon) exceedingly well approved it, adding that it was Apostolicall, and a very good ordinance, in that it was given in the name of Christ, to one that desired it, and upon the clearing of his conscience.

Hath then Almighty God given such power unto Men, as not only to publish the conditions of Peace and Reconciliation to the sonnes of Men, viz. Credenti remittentur peccata, if they beleeve they shall receive Remiffion; but also to apply the comfortable assurance of Remission to this and that man in particular, and upon the sight and approbation of Penitency to say, I absolve thee? Or is this do­ctrine of Confession and Absolution agreeable to the Scriptures, and practise of the Church as well present as primitive? Then (that I may speake it in the words of our [...]. Boyse, pag. 523. impres. 1629. English Postiller,) albeit some scribling Scribe pen an invective pamphlet against a discreet Pastor executing this office, or some selfe-conceited Pharisee tell the peo­ple, this man blasphemeth; he may notwithstanding (upon good in­formation of faith and repentance) say to the fick sinner in his bed, Thy sinnes are forgiven thee; and by Christs authority committed un­to him, I absolve thee: greater power then which no man ever re­ceived.

Thus t [...]en, clave non errante, if the Minister faile not in the key of knowledge, that is, in discerning and rightly judging of the pe­nitentiall sorrow, and contrition of the peccant, his key of Power and Authority delegate is found effectually operative, and hath in it (as one truly speaketh) M Bedford, Treat. os the Sacr. p. 60. the stampe of God for the quiet and con­tent of the troubled conscience. Qui vos audit, [...] audit, he that hea­reth you, heareth me. Try this (saith another) See the Pract. of Pitty. and tell me whether thou shalt not finde more ease in thy conscience then can be expres­sed. Adding moreover, that did prophane men consider the dignity of this Divine Calling, they would the more honour the Calling, and reverence the Persons. For as God hath reconciled the world to himselfe by Jesus Christ, so hath he given unto us the Ministry of this reconciliation, as saith the Apostle in 2 Cor. 5.18.

Verily the difference between the Papists and us in this point is very great: They tie the keyes to the Popes girdle, so as whoso hath them, hath them not but from him. He grants Absolutions sealed with Lead, in forme of a Judiciall sentence of a Court, although he know not how the party that he meanes to absolve stands affected, or desires an Absolution. Some have had Absolutions sent them from Rome for their monies: others have caused them to come by [Page 73] Bills of Exchange. The Pope, under pretence of this power, takes upon him to untie the knot of fidelity which Subjects owe to their naturall Prince: he dischargeth men of their lawfull oathes, and children of the obedience which they owe to their Parents. A man they say, may be absolved against his will; no matter therefore for conditions requisite, or qualifications of Faith and Repentance in the penitent. Their Bishops and Priests (they say) forgive sinnes by the very word of Absolution, or by the bare pronouncing of the words and syllables; by a true and physicall efficiency, reaching to the very production of grace, as Suarez speaketh; or to the dissolu­tion and destruction, or extinguishing of Sinne, as Bellarmine affir­meth. They faile also whilst they hold, that at the will and pleasure of every Priest exercising the Keyes on earth, men are bound and loosed in heaven, without any proviso at all, of Clave non errante. And Bellarmine would faine make the world beleeve, that the Keyes re­maine in our Saviour Christs hand only at the vacancy of the Pope­dome. Absolution is among them made a true and a right Sacra­ment: They tie all upon paine of damnation to come to shrift, thru­sting this their auricular confession upon the soules of Christians as an expiatory Sacrifice, and a meritorious satisfaction for sinne: They leave none to liberty, either to come or not to come, to con­fesse or not to confesse; but cry out, that all who will be saved must necessarily goe on in this way, though he feeles no distresse; but having throughly fearched himself, hath been truly sorrowfull al­ready, and received secret comfort from above. Nor are they but tied to enumerate all their sinnes, which is impossible.

Hugo, in his booke of the Churches power to binde and loose, speakesfully thus: I dare boldly say (quoth he) if before the Priests ab­solution any man doe come to the Communion of the Body and Blood of the Lord, that he doth assuredly eat and drinke his own damnation, although be repent him never so much, and doth never so greatly lament his offences. But yet though Hugo were thus bold, Saint Paul hath said, Let a man examine himselfe, and so let him eat of this Bread, and drinke of this Cup. Hugo might have seen it, and not have made all eases alike: notwithstanding which peremptory assertion of his, the Church of Rome left the matter still at liberty; yea, though Peter Lombard were mightily for it. For Gratian, who lived and flourished at the same time with Lombard, determineth nothing definitively, but shewing sentences for either side (both that we must confesse our sins to the Priest, and not confesse them) doth leave it indifferently unto the [Page 74] Readers judgement. After whom followed Lotharius Levita, a Doctor of Paris, the scholler and earnest follower of Peter Lombard; who being once made Bishop of Rome, and named Innocent the third, made a law for it in the Councell of Literan, which Gregory the ninth reciteth in his Decretall of Penance and Remission, the fift booke, and twelfth Chapter, to this effect; Let every person of either sexe, after they are come to the yeares of discretion, faithfully confesse alone, at least Semel in ani­mo, in the La­tine, for semel in anno. once in a yeare their sinnes unto their owne proper Priest; and doe their indeavour with their owne strength to doe the penance that is injoyned them; receiving reverently at Easter, at the least the Sacrament of the Eucharist, unlesse peradventure by the councell of their owne Priest, for some reasonable cause, they thinke it good for a time to absteine from re­ceiving it. Otherwise in this life let them be prohibited to enter into the Church; and when they are dead, to be buried in Christian buriall. This is that new Law which in their little pretty Councell of Trent was further enlarged, and more errours added to their abused practice of Absolution. But let not the Antichristian abuse of this divine Ordinance abolish the lawfull use thereof betwixt good Christians and their Pastours, when need and occasion is to have it used. And so I leave this point, and come next to give answer unto something else.

ANSWER.

Your judgement is too rash to be credited; too rash, good man, I dare assure you. If you had said that the Genealogies were lesse edifying then other scripture, and therefore omitted, your reason [Page 75] had been of more authority and better agreeing to what is mentio­ned in the order before the Kalender. For tell me (I beseech you) whether those Instructions and Lessons which you gather from hence, are manifest upon the bare reading? and if not (as for certaine they be not) then why should you dare to accuse the Church of such a wicked purpose as to intend the keeping of the people in blindnesse?

ANSWER.

An heape of slanders still: Here you take the like liberty to judge that you did before: a thing nothing strange to men of your Sect; I should else have wondred, that you could not have thought the reading of this book to be omited for some other reason, which (if need were) tis like enough I could lay before you. But I passe it over, and shall only tell you, that Preaching may explaine, what reading cannot: And therefore till you hear Ministers forbidden to open in their Sermons either this book or the other Scriptures that you mention, you may (right worthy Sir) sit worshipfully down and hold your peace.

ANSWER.

You should speak the truth, and shame the Devill. At the en­trance of these accusations although I passed it by, because I might [Page 73] here declare it) you said that both the Bookes of the Kings, except the eight first Chapters of the first Book, were forbidden: but look again, and you will finde it otherwise. If your eyes be dim, you may use your Spectacles: for the truth is, that both the books are appointed to be read throughout, excepting those eight Chapters which you mention: and not vice versa; for that's false. And because the Books of the Chronicles do relate the same stories which are written in the Books of the Kings, it is sufficient to ap­point the reading of the one, although the other be omitted.

ANSWER.

You grant this booke also to be forbidden: and yet you know that we have Lessons taken out of the Revelations, and read upon Saint Johns day, as also upon the day of All-Saints: besides Epi­stles taken from thence, and appointed to be read on Trinity Sun­day, Michaelmasse day, and Innocents day. Know all men therefore by these presents that you plainly shew your selfe no better then a false accuser.

In the next place you fall foule upon Bishops, and besprinkle them with the durt which your Spleen hath raised: only you doe a little qualifie your distast towards them that suffered Martyrdome in the dayes of Queen Mary; but like not their love to the Book of Common Prayer: thinking your selfe to be more illuminated then were they, notwithstanding they laid down their lives in de­fence of the truth, in denying the Popes usurped supremacy, and for not granting the Bread and Wine in the Lord Supper to be the Body and Blood of Christ. All the rest since have been odious un­to you, their remembrance loathsome, and judged to be men desti­tute of the true feare of God. Their Prelacy dislikes you, and your language against them is just as was the language of Corath, Da­than and Abiram in the dayes of old, against Moses and Aaron. Num. 16.3. Dio­trephes was one also who would not receive the Apostles, but pra­ted against them with malicious words, as Saint John hath told us: Epist. 3. v. 9, 10. and because this pert man that thus prated against them, could not be above them, he slights them and labours for preeminence. But [Page 77] what say the Scriptures? they give us notice of some, who in the latter daies should perish in the gainsaying of Corah, as well as of some who should be led with the errour of Balaam for reward. See S. Judes E­pist. vers. 11. Look well about you, and take heed how you strike; an Angel else may chance to stand against you, whilest you ride on the beast, and be as loath to loose the rewards of your good Masters and Dames, as was Balaam to loose the rewards of the King of Moab. For the Pope may be Antichrist, though Bishops be upheld: they were ne­ver limbs of that man of Sinne, as Bishops, but as Popish; whilest they swore subjection unto him, whilest they defended him, whilest they worshipped him above all that is called God, and extorted this homage from others: But shall they therefore which defie him, resist, trample upon him, spend their lives and labours in opposing of him, be necessarily still in the same condition, because they are Bishops? a foolish argument, and he were a senceles man that should subscribe it. But shall I tell you? there were many Kings and Princes that gave their strength and power to the Beast, but are now revolted from him: are they not therefore Kings and Prin­ces still? Yes sure: their calling is not lost, they are Kings and Princes still, although not Antichristian Kings and Princes. Eng­land was once termed the Popes Asse, but hath long since shaked off that yoak and abolished the Popes tyranny, is it not therefore England still? Or to speak of what was late, The Princes, Peers and Magistrates of England in Queen Maries daies were shoulders and armes of Antichrist; their calling is still the same, and must still be retained, notwithstanding then they went the wrong way in it. The like is to be said of Bishops in regard of their order, which in it selfe is as firm, strong, and sound as ever; notwithstanding what you, or any man else, may urge to the contrary. If you were not a man of faction, but would deale fairly in this busines, you should not plead for parity, or goe about to destroy the government of Gods Church by Bishops; but labour to retain the Primitive form: which consistteth, not in the abolishing of Bishops, and striving to make all Pastours equall; but in the restoring of Presbyteries, by joyning with the Bishops deserving, honest, and able See for this M^r. Thorndikes book of the pri­mitive Govern­ment of Chur­ches. Presbyters; not Lay-elders, but learned Ministers.

In a word, there is one thing more, which before I goe further must be rememhred. For you tell us, that in the latter end of Queene Elizabeths raigne, when she began to be sickly, and not like to live long, then Doctour Bancroft Lord Bishop of London, knowing that King [Page 78] James was to succeed her, and fearing that his Majesty would reforme things amisse in the publike worship and service of God, and in the Go­vernment of the Church, did License a Booke written by a Jesuite that he kept in his house, wherein it was written, that it was in the Popes pow­er, as a gift appropriate to Saint Peters chaire, to depose the Kings of England, and to give authority to the People to elect, choose, and set up another.

Whereto I answer, that in this you doe but cast durt in the face of the dead: For that which you here mention is but what was ob­jected in the Conference at Hampton Court by Doctour Reynolds, and openly proved then (in presence of his Majesty which you speak of) to be but a false aspersion by which the Bishop was injured and standered. Wherefore you doe ill to revive it now for the incen­sing of the people to the more malice, who are already too eager to inveigh against Bishops. For I verily thinke. that never since the times of Christ and his Apostles, were Bishops in such hatred, nor had in such contempt as now. I wonder that they goe not a­bout likewise to cry down a standing Ministrie: for personall of­fenders may as well countenance the abolishing of the one, as of the other: And indeed it is in a manner come even to that too, amongst some furious and fanaticke spitits. But the God of Heaven put a right end to these busie stirrs, lest all at the last be brought to ruine. Let the fiercenesse of those Opposites who cry Downe with them, downe with them, even to the ground, turn to thy praise ô blessed Lord: yea, the fiercenesse of them who are thus furious, doe thou restrain; and bring honour to thy name out of this dishonour, and good to thy Church out of this evill: It is thine owne cause, ô God; arise therefore and defend it, in spight of all that shall oppose it.

And thus I am come almost to the end of your dowty Dialogue; a little more will bring me to it.

ANSWER.

Great pitty sure to see so worthy a worke defaced, especially be­ing intended for the view of the high Court of Parliament. But grieve not at it, though you sometimes chance to thinke upon it; for you make amends for all, in this most learned and through­paced Dialogue; which is instar omnium, and a great deale fitter for the Parliament then that little Booke you speake of. Aquila non ca­pit Muscas; Parliaments meddle with great matters. Let little Bookes therefore goe, and thinke your selfe better with this great volume of almost twenty leaves in Quarto; which the Parliament (when it hath nothing else to doe) will read and relish as well as it can. This is enough to comfort you; you may by no meanes desire more, except you had written to better purpose.

ANSWER.

Here you come in with a di [...]course, out of your little Booke, of some fearefull Judgements shewed on Churches by Thunder and Lightning, in Service time; and you mention chiefly two; the one on the Parish Church of Whitcomb in Devonshire, upon the 21 day of October 1638. the other on the Parish Church of Anthony in Cornwell upon Whitsunday 1640. when the people were kneeling at the Communion: which fell upon those places to shew that God is not pleased, but much offended with the publike Worship and Service which is prescribed unto his holy Majesty in our Service-booke. Thus saith your Dialogue, pag. 32. 35. and 37.

But what saith the Apostle? O how unsearchable are Gods Judge­ments, and his wayes past finding out! And verily, we thank God, our Service booke is clearely proved to be of another nature, then to offend the diyine Majesty. But in this you speake against us just as did the Pagans sometimes against the Christians; who imputed all the calamities that befell them, to be in regard of the Christian re­ligion: plagues, famine, fires, and whatsoever publike calamity be­fell them, was for no other cause. This therefore made the poore Christians suffer the more persecutions, and come under the grea­ter troubles, even to rhe shedding of their blood, with a purpose of destroying them quite, and rooting them out. Howbeit the God of Heaven did sometimes send them times of breathing, and at last stir­red [Page 80] up a powerfull patriot carefully to defend them: all which was shewed in vision to Saint John, as we may read it in the 12 Chapter of the Revelation. And as for us, beside the whole Answer to your Dialogue, I have already (even in particular) shewed you, how Letanies have prevailed with God in times of danger. And are these services now become odious to Heaven? not in themselves, but in those who doe not use them as they ought: For God is the same al­wayes, from one Generation to another; he changeth not, but is the same for ever; and is well pleased to see us come into his Courts, and to doe our devotions before him. But this is evermore the fa­shion of your Sect, to dive deeper into Gods secrets then they who are wise unto sobriety dare determine.

God blesse the King, and direct aright the High Court of Parlia­ment; and so guide and direct us all, that we may with a joynt con­sent strive together truly to set forth his praise and glory. To which let all that love the Lord say evermore Amen, Amen.