A modest and free conference betwixt a conformist and a non-conformist about the present distempers of Scotland now in seven dialogues / by a lover of peace.

A modest and free conference betwixt a conformist and a non-conformist about the present distempers of Scotland now in seven dialogues / by a lover of peace.

Table of contents

Title page

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The Stationer to the Reader.

For the Stationer.

DIALOGUE I.

DIALOGUE II.

DIALOGUE III.

DIALOGUE IV.

DIALOGUE V.

DIALOGUE VI.

POSTSCRIPT.

A PINDARICK ODE Upon Contentions in matters of Religion, by a friend of the Authors, and a zealous promoter of all designs for Peace and Love.

A continuation of the former Conference. DIALOGUE VII.

[Page]A modest and free Conference betwixt a Conformist and a Non-conformist, about the present distempers of Scotland.

In six Dialogues.

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A MODEST AND FREE CONFERENCE BETWIXT A Conformist and a Non-conformist, about the present distempers of Scotland. The second Edition. Now in seven Dialogues. By a Lover of Peace.

Gal. 5.15. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed ye be not consumed one of another.

Published by Order.

Printed Anno Dom. 1669.

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The Stationer to the Reader.

[Page]

Reader,

ALL the account I can give of this Book, or the Author, is in the following Letter which came to my hands a few dayes after I received these Sheets, and is prefixed to them in stead of a Preface.

For the Stationer.

THough these Dialogues were brought to you by another hand than my own, yet since it is upon my motion that they came to be Published, contrary [Page] to the Authors design, and truly without his order: I think my self oblidged to say somewhat of the Author and the book, and the rather that the Author, not being forward to the publishing of it, will say nothing of Preface himself; But withall, I am resolved you shall be as ignorant of the Writter of this, as of the Author of the Book.

The Author is a person of extraordinary moderation and peaceablness: he can allow any difference of opinion, but such as is incompatible with the peace and quiet of the Church. And though there be some expressions [Page] in these Dialogues that would appear tart; yet it is meerly occasioned by the zeal he hath against that uncharitable spirit, which can allow of nothing that is not exactly of their own way.

The occasion of writting in this way, was, that a Book of the same title and nature, printed in England, came to the Author's hands; and he, being pleased with that familiar way of Writting, thought presently of composing Dialogues suitable to our Differences here, as that was to the Differences of that Nation: If there be any thing in this coincident with that Book, it is in [Page] such things as the humours of that unquiet spirit in both Nations are the same. And the Author designs not vanity by these few sheets, written, to my knowledge, in as few houres as they could hardly be transcribed; But wisheth every one to see the weakness of those grounds upon which such specious structurs are built; which when they come to be examined, prove but painted sepulchres.

The great design of the Author in this small Book, is, to let some well-meaning people, who have a love to godlinesse, see that Religion is not at all concerned [Page] in things wherein they do concern themselves very much, and that in contending for the shell we are like to loose the kernell of Religion.

The language and manner of Writting, is accommodated to these meaner capacities, who are most apt to be abused, by such as care not, nay, which is very sad, but too true, wish not Religion nor godliness to prosper in the hands of those who differ from them in opinion about externall things, vvhich are not of great moment: as may appear from their persvvading poor souls to take for a mark of zeal that which in al [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] christian Nations is lookt on as a very great mark of impiety, to wit, not going to Church: by which people do shew, in the most signal manner they can, their not owning the worship and adoration of God.

The Author meaned no prejudice to any person in vvritting of it, Nor is it published upon any such design, but in hopes that it may inform sincere people. And whoever reads it without prejudice, will I hope judge so of it.

Farewel.

DIALOGUE I.

Con.

YOu are welcome from the West. How are all things there?

Non.

Never worse; The glory is departed from that people: and the power of godlinesse is gone there. God pity that poor place, which was once so Glorious.

C.

I perceive by your manner of speaking, that you are much concerned in these matters: but I pray you tell me wherein things are turned so much to the worse among you?

N.

Alas! are you such a stranger in Israel, as not to know these things? are not our gracious Ministers taken from us? so that the work of God is much born down: the brave dayes of Communions, [Page] Preachings, Prayers, are away; and in stead of the fire was once there, there remain but a few sparks in some secret corners: for, the precious Ordinances are gone.

C.

What you say upon the matter, I know well enough: but do not apprehend it to be of such importance, as you seem to do.

N.

What! do not you think it sad, that Christ is not Preached?

C.

God forbid but he be? I do not know how it is in your Country, but I am sure with us Christ is preached very faithfully, but I fear you consider not well what it is to preach Christ; do you think to tell us only of his death, is to preach him?

N.

No, no, but oh how doth my heart melt within me, when I remember how sweetly I have heard the Ministers there, clear up my interest in Christ?

C.

May be it was more sweetly then sincerly; for to tell you of an interest in him, while you are strangers to his Laws and Gospel, is to deceive you: since you can have no interest in the blood of Christ, till you have his Spirit dwelling in you.

N.

Blessed be God, I know no name to be saved by, but the Name of Christ: And I renounce mine own righteousnesse, and accept of his righteousnesse.

C.

It is very true, that we are saved by the blood of Christ: but it is as true, that we must be purified by his Spirit, else we are none of his. If by renouncing your own righteousnesse; you mean, what you naturally can perform without grace, [Page] you are in the right, but if you lean so to Christs righteousnesse, as to neglect to be righteous your self, you with Iudas, kiss your Master, while you betray him. And I fear your Ministers studied more to convince you of the need of Christs righteousnesse, then of having any of your own: For indeed it is a cheap Religion, to lean so intirely to Christ, that we do nothing our selves.

N.

We are far from thinking there is no need of good works: We only exclude them from Justification, which is by Faith only.

C.

Truly your practices tell, you think there is as little need of them to Salvation, as to Justification, remember the Gospel is plain and simple, and came not to teach men Sophistry or Logick: therefore I shall not contend with you about words or phrases: for as I believe, that Christ came to lay down his life a ransome for our sins; so if you believe, that without holinesse we shall never see the face of God, we are agreed in this matter. But I wish we all studied to live better, and then our differences would quickly end.

N.

Yes, I hear some of you are still talking of holiness and peace, but you forget truth: which is so necessary, that without it holiness is but hypocrisie.

C.

I acknowledge that, if you speak of the fundamental Articles of our Faith. But all truths are not of equal certainty, nor of equal importance: now it is a certain and important truth, that there should be an unity in the Catholick Church; which [Page] is not to be broken, but upon a matter of greater certainty and weight.

N.

One precious truth is worth all the world: therefore I will not quite one truth for the love of all men. Not a hoof, said Moses.

C.

If you were required to condemn or deny any thing you judged truth, I confesse you ought to obey God rather than man. But it is another case to quite the communion of the Church; because they are not, as you think, in the truth: unlesse that truth be of greater importance than is the Article of your Faith, The Catholick Church, and the communion of Saints. And when you are as sure of your call to contend for these truths, as Moses was of the will of God, you may use his words. Let me then examine you a little, how do you know your opinions are truths?

N.

Who can doubt of it? are they not the cause and interest of Christ, his Kingdom and Crown, his glorious work, to which we are all bound by the oath of God taken in the Covenant, whereinto even the children unborn are oblidged.

C.

If big words prove truths, you are full of them: But remember of whom the Apostle gives this Character, they speak swelling words of vanity. And there is no party but have the same language in their mouth: these are fine contrivances to lead away silly women captive, who would be ready to judge your blustering confidence, an evidence of truth, when a modester way of speaking is suspect of diffidence: whereas in right scales, the one looks [Page] like arrogant pride, and the other like the modest Spirit of Jesus Christ.

N.

How can you deny, that what is now cried down, was the work of God?

C.

I confesse it was so the work of God, as the Prophet said, is there any evil in the City, and the Lord hath not done it: but in the sense you take it, it was as far from it, as darknesse is from light.

N.

How can you speak so, was not sin strangely born down in our dayes?

C.

I confesse you studied to represse some sins: so did the Pharisees. But remember the Apostle divides filthinesse, in that of the flesh, and of the Spirit: and indeed, the latter proves a much subtiller and stronger opposition to the Gospel, than the former. It is true, some of these were repressed by you; though I must add, in a way, scarce suitable to the Gospel: but for other sins, you were very gentle to them, nay, were guilty of them your selves: for they mingled in all you did.

N.

Now you begin to rail, and I cannot endure to hear those glorious dayes so spoken of. Is this the moderation you so much pro [...]esse?

C.

I love moderation as much as any can, and declare to you once for all, that I have no quarrel at any, for their opinions in these matters: nor shall I labour to disgrace the leaders of your party, by searching into their private escapes; a practice much used by you against us, your mouthes being ever full of bitter reproaches against some of our way: but it is directly contrary to the Spirit of [Page] Christ and his Gospel, wherein we are put in mind to speak evil of no man. I shall therefore from your publick and avowed actions, and printed papers, shew how far you are out of the way of God. And first, what think you of your rebellion? this was the Soul of your whole work, and your Covenant was a Bond to cement you in this.

N.

Call you fighting for God and his Cause, rebellion?

C.

It is yet under debate, whether it be the Cause of God: Suppose it were, shew me one place in either Testaments, that warrands Subjects fighting for Religion? you know I can bring many against it; yea, though the old dispensation was a more carnal and fiery one, than the new one is; yet, when the Kings of Iudah and Israel made Apostacy from the living God, into [...]eathenish Idolatry, some of the Kings of Iudah polluting the Temple of Ierusalem, as did Ahaz and Mannasseh, so that God could not be worshipped there, without Idolatry, yet where do we find the people resisting them, or falling to popular Reformations? Neither do the Prophets that were sent by God, ever provoke them to any such courses. And you know the whole strain of the New Testament runs upon suffering.

N.

The law of nature teacheth us to defend our selves, and so there is no need of Scripture for it?

C.

This is marvelous dealing, in other things you alwayes flee from reason, as a carnal principle, to Scripture; but here you quite Scripture and appeal to it: but it seems you are yet a stranger [Page] to the very design of Religion, which is to tame and mortifie nature: and is not a natural thing, but supernatural. Therefore the rules of defending and advancing it, must not be borrowed from nature, but grace: The Scriptures are also strangely contrived, since they ever tell us of suffering under persecution: without giving your exception, that we resist when we are in a capacity. And I appeal to your conscience, whether it be a likelier way to advance Religion, fighting or suffering? since a carnal man can do the one, but not the other.

N.

How can we neglect the interests of Christ, and let them ruine, when we are in a capacity to defend them?

C.

If there were not a God who governs the World, your reasoning might have force: but do you think that God cannot maintain his own right, but the wrath of man must work his righteousnesse? nay, we see the contrary, for from the beginning, till this day, God hath made the sufferings of his people, the chief mean of propagating Religion; whereas fighting hath been ever fatal to it. And Christ did begin the Gospel with his suffering, though he could have commanded Legions of Angels for his defence.

N.

Christ knew it was the Fathers will that he must suffer.

C.

This shews how little you understand when you speak so: are not Christs injunctions our rule. Since then he forbade his Disciples to draw a sword for him, with so severe a threatning, as whosoever [Page]will draw the sword, shall perish by the sword, this must binde us, and what he sayes to Pilate on this [...]ead, My Kingdom is not of this world, &c. is so plain language, that I wonder how it doth not convince all. I know there are some pitifull answers made to those places: but they are so irrational, that they deserve not a serious reply, and I am not of an humour to laugh at them: only take notice of this, that if an ingenuous man speak plainly, much more must the God of truth: Judge then whether these unworthy glosses, make Christ likeer a nibling Logician, then the true and faithfull witnesse.

N.

Then you condemn our first reformation carried on by fighting.

C.

Since you go to examples, rather begin with the Ages that immediatly followed Christ, in which for three hundred years the Gospel was preached and propagated by sufferings, but never by fighting, though their number enabled them to it, and they were irritated by the cruellest provocations and persecutions: And it is to be supposed, that they who saw and conversed with the Apostles, understood their meaning better than these who lived at so great a distance from them: I acknowledge there was force used in our Reformation; but so much the worse for that: And you know the enemy sowes his tares, even in that field, wherein the Wheat is sowen. But never alledge to me the president of men, against the expresse Word of God.

N.

What say you then to these who died sealing [Page] their opinion, fighting for Religion, with their blood?

C.

You put me to a hard lock, to rake amongst the ashes of the dead: As for those who died, I had that compassion for some of them, that I could willingly have redeemed their lives at the rate of mine own: And I doubt not but many sincerely followed their Conscience in it. But I am far from thinking the better of the Cause, because some died handsomly for it, otherwise I should be reconciled to Atheism, and all Heresies, who want not their pretended Martyrs. But I need go no further then England, at His Majesties Restauration, where the murderers of the late King, died gallantly, ow [...] ing what they did as the Cause of God. So the seal of a Martyr's blood, is not alwayes the seal of God.

N.

Well, but why do you remember bygones? We are now all good Subjects, and do bless God for His Majesties Restauration, and do pray for him more then you do.

C.

May be so, that he may be of your way; but, if that be not, I doubt your love to him is very cool. I do not remember bygones to bring an odium upon you, but to shew that a course which was managed by a spirit of Rebellion, was none of Gods. As for your rejoycing at His Majesties Restauration, I scarce believe it, since you will not keep a day of Thanksgiving for it.

N.

It is not that we scruple the thing, but because you make it a holy day.

C.

This is very nice, for by holy day we mean [Page] [...]ot that the twenty ninth of May is a more sacred time, then other dayes: but that the day shall be devoted to holy exercise.

N.

This should not be enjoyned by the Magistrate, but by the Church, who ought only to order the worship of God.

C.

I shall not against this alledge the commands of David and Solomon, since you may alledge they were extraordinary persons; but you cannot say that Esther and Mordecai were such, who enjoyned the observation of Purim, and call that Feast a good day; and the odds betwixt holy and good is not very great. And although there be no divine order for the Feast of Dedication, yet our Saviour was at the Feast, and in the Temple: though you will not come to Church on the twenty ninth of May.

N.

Well then, all you can charge upon us is a little disloyalty, but for all that, our way may be the Cause of God: for even the Saints have their infirmities.

C.

Truly this is so great a one, that I dare pronounce none a Saint, who hath been guilty of it, till he repent of it: But I am far from being at the end of your faults, having but begun with this. The next thing perswades me of your evil way, is, your cruelty and rigour: Did you not force all to take the Covenant, severely punishing such as would not? And did you not cruelly persecute all those who opposed you? Truly this hath so confirmed my aversion from your way, that I hope never to be reconciled to this part of it.

[Page]N.

That was a fault too, and many of us are very sensible of it.

C.

Let not my soul enter into the secrets of bloody men: Your very Leaders, who if they had known any thing of the meek spirit, should have opposed these severities; not only countenanced, but drave them on, and rejoyced in them. And if they think it a fault, how comes it that none of them offers to disclaim it? Yea, some of you in your confessions of sins, and causes of wrath, rather tax your courses of too great lenity.

N.

Whoever may object that, you may be silent; for what severity have we felt? how many Ministers are turned out, and people oppressed for not owning you?

C.

I must in so far justify the rigour you have met with, as to show it is far short of yours. People are required to do nothing, but live peaceably, and joyn in Worship; whereas you made them swear to you: and the Ministers are not made swear to maintain the present establishment, and to root out the contrary, as you did; they are only required to concur in Discipline, and to promise submission to Episcopacy.

N.

Do you not wonder at my patience, who hear you inveigh so bitterly against us? but I let you see, a Presbyterian can be calm: I hope you have done.

C.

Not yet indeed; I am not trying your calmness, but your conscience, and what I speak, is not to irritat, but to convince you. I shall next take notice of the great insolence and height was among [Page] you: I speak not of personal pride, though I coul [...] say enough on that Head: I only tax your public actings. What insolence was it, to assume bi [...] names, of the godly party, and the people of God [...]nd to call your way, The Cause and Kingdom o [...] Christ? Whether looks this like the Pharisees an [...] Hypocrites, or not? And in this you were punished with your own weapons: for the Protester [...] wrung that from the rest of you, and the Independants assumed it from you both.

N.

I am sure we were the Godly Party, compared to those we had to do with.

C.

This bewrayes your arrogance: though it were so, you ought not to bear witness to your selves, nor assume such titles. Remember the Pharisee, who said, I thank the Lord that I am not like this Publican. You know the loudest pretenders have not alwayes the justest title.

N.

I hope now you have done with your scolding.

C.

This is like all guilty persons, who take every modest representing of their faults to them, as scolding and bitterness; so did the Jews use St. Paul. It shews the sore or disease is desperate, when the Patient cannot be touched. I have not yet begun to scold, but I have not done with admonishing. Next, How did your Leaders complain of Bishops their medling in matters of State: and yet when the Scene turned, how absolutely did they govern? Church-men grew the advisers of all businesses, Juntoes held in their houses. And how impudently did the Church countermand the State, [Page] Anno 1648. even in Civil matters? as were the Levying of Armies, and the paying of Taxes. And after the Tragical Catastrophe of the unlawfully called unlawful Engagement, they barred the Nobility from their priviledges as Peers, till they must be satisfied.

N.

All that was done in order to Religion, which is in the Churches care.

C.

This is the very Plea of the Pope: and indeed in Politicks, the Pope and the Presbyterians agree in moe things than you think on. By this Maxime all Civil matters must come under Ecclesiastical cognizance; since every action can be reduced to one of the Tables of the Law. But particularly to medle with War, and matters of Blood, hath been ever judged directly contrary to the Pastoral duty, which obligeth to feed, and not to kill. But I shall add one thing more, which was your Superstition.

N.

I had resolved to have objected that to you, and I am sure we cannot be guilty of it, since there is nothing we hate more?

C.

You know not the true notion of it, and so are guiltier then you are aware of. Superstition is an over-rating of things, as if God were more pleased with them, than indeed he is: And therefore to lay too great weight upon any thing, is superstition. He then that judgeth a thing of it self indifferent, to be necessary: And he that condemns it as unlawful, are equally superstitious. It were a long and tedious story, to let you see how great weight you laid upon many small matters, both in [Page] doing and forbearing. But I will leave particulars to your conscience; and I protest in all I hav [...] said, I have no other design, but to teach you no [...] to have mens persons or wayes too much in admiration.

N.

You have now run out in a long and furiou [...] career against us: hear me next, reckon the excellent things were amongst us, and I doubt not yo [...] shall confesse our good did far preponderat ou [...] evil.

C.

I shall hear you with all my heart, but in th [...] mean time let us take a little refreshment an [...] respite.

N.

Be it so.

DIALOGUE II.

[Page]

[...].

NOw let us again resume our discourse, and tell me what great goodnesse was it, which [...]o commended your party; for I love what is good, [...]e where it will: and therefore though I be none [...]f your party, yet I shall heartily rejoyce to hear [...]ood of them.

N.

I fear you are either so carnal, as not to re [...]ish things that are spiritual, or so byassed, as not [...]o set the due value upon us: But who can doubt we were the people of God, who remember how we bore down sin and wickednesse? How much good preaching there was amongst us? What fer [...]our was on peoples mindes, when they heard Sermons? What heavenly prayers we poured out to God? But when I remember our Fasts, and dayes of Communion, my very heart breaks to think these sweet dayes are now gone: Then what delight in Scripture had we, that all our Vulgar were acquainted with it? How well was the Sabbath observed amongst us? And what order was there in Families, morning and evening? All this is now gone. Alas for poor Scotland! that had once the light of the Gospel so brightly shining in it! But now, ah, ah, for the darknesse that hath overspread it! had you but seen what I saw, your very heart would have been ravished with it.

C.

Truly, I expected to have heard some great matter from you, of the self-denial, contempt of [Page] the world, resignation, humility, meeknesse, patience, obedience, charity, abstraction of minde, and the other great heights of Christian Religion; but you tell me only of their external devotion, which how good soever it be, yet is far from being the Character of a Christian; since the very Pharisees were eminent in those things.

N.

I told you, you were carnal, and savoured not the things of God; you look after morality, as the great matter: but we look after true Christianity.

C.

If by morality, you mean the affecting a vertuous behaviour, without a dependance on God and Christ, I have as low an account of it as any can have; but if by morality, you mean a pure and holy Conversation, I doubt it is the greatest and best part of Religion: Without which, the other parts are but hypocrisie and formality. But I shall examine all these things which seem to knit your hearts so much to that way: And shall begin with their diligence in repressing sin. I confesse they had a kind of Discipline: but it was wholly different from the rules of the Gospel, and far short of the ancient Bishops discipline.

N.

I see you undervalue every thing we did, but I am sure you have no reason for it.

C.

First then, were not your Church-Sessions like Birla-Courts, where every one came and complained of wrongs, which belonged to the Magistrate: for the Church should only meddle with sins, as they are Scandals, and not as they are injuries. Next, Dilations, according to our Lords [Page] rule, should not be received, till the person be first privately admonished by the party offended; next, by two or three; and if he be obstinat, the Church should be told: But you observed no such rule. Next you imposed and exacted Fines, which was the Magistrate's work, whereas the Church should take no money, but what is offered in Charity. You also forced people to stoop to your Discipline, for if they refused, you threatned them with the temporal sword: which by the unhappinesse of the times, was too much at your dispose. And this sheweth, that you did not carry on the Gospel, by a Gospel-spirit, though that was ever in your mouthes, but by secular wayes: for, offenders should come and offer themselves to Discipline, and not be driven to it. The time wherein your pennance lasted, was also short: the ancient Bishops did separate offenders, as many years, as you did weeks. It is also clear, you used Discipline to put a temporal shame upon offenders: For you set them in a high place to be gazed upon, whereas they should have been rather set without the doors of the Church. And to conclude, how wretchedly did you abuse this? subjecting people to censure, for your triffling matters, when you knew they were acting a mock-penitence: and were more zealous to preach against oppositions to your courses, than against the oppositions to the everlasting Gospel.

N.

Now you tax us for what we were very free of: Was ever sin so boldly reproved, as in our Pulpits? Our Ministers sparing no rank nor quality.

[Page]C.

I confesse some things, I say not sins, you reproved boldly enough: not sparing the Lords Anointed, whose pretended faults, you, like so many unnatural Hams, were ready enough to publish, when your so doing, could have no other effect, but to irritate his Subjects against him. How often was that sacred Prince charged with Popery, Tyranny, and the Massacre of Ireland? and that Royal Family termed, the bloody-house? yea, after his accursed enemies had murdered him, when common humanity should have oblidged you to let the dead alone, and Christianity should have taught you to have had more reverent thoughts of one who died so piously and devoutly; yet you ceased not to persecute and tear his memorie, which in spite of your malice, will be glorious to all posterity: and that with the height of insolence and barbarity, in the very hearing and presence of his Son, who now reigneth. This was your bold reproving of faults. But how little were you in secret reproving faults? When you got to the Pulpit, there indeed you triumphed, because you knew none were to oppose you. Now it is certain, reproofs should be begun in private, and not brought to publick; but upon the obstinate rejecting of private admonitions. And for what end were you often so bitter to absents? This, and such other things could be upon no other design, but either maliciously to disgrace them, or to get a following among your party, and the name of faithfull, free, and zealous preachers.

[Page]N.

You speak with very great heat and passion, against better men then your self, and better preachers than ever any of your way will be.

C.

May be so, I wish both they and their Gifts had been seven-fold better than they were: but if I shall judge of them, either by their printed Sermons, or those I have heard, they are no extraordinary things. And first, The half of their Sermons were upon publick matters: and what did these concern the Souls of the poor people? Was not this for bread, to give them a stone? Next, for the solid practises of a Christian life, I scarce ever heard them named, except overly. Whom heard you preach against the love of the world, seeking of esteem, quarrelling, seeking of revenge, anxiety and passion? Vertue was little preached, and far lesse practised.

N.

I am sure we heard much spiritual Doctrine from them; for, these are common matters.

C.

Read our Saviours Sermons, particularly, his longest upon the mount, and you shall finde these to be the great subjects of his discourse: I confesse they are common, but remember the commonest things are often most usefull. As for your spiritual Doctrine, the true heights of spirituality were as little preached, as the living much in abstraction, silence and solitude, the being often in the still contemplations of God and Christ, the becoming dead to all things else, spending dayes and nights in secret fastings and prayers, how seldom were these things spoken of?

[Page]N.

What then make you of them, since you d [...] not allow them to be spiritual doctrine?

C.

I shall not deny but they were spiritual, bu [...] I add, they were of a very low size and degree, an [...] such as could never carry on the Auditors to an [...] great perfection, and most of them were practise [...] by the Pharisees. You know they read the Scrip [...] ture, and knew it so exactly, as no Christians do their Bibles: they observed the Sabbath severly▪ they prayed many and long prayers. So that these external things, are but the fringes of true Religion.

N.

We heard Christ and him crucified preached much.

C.

It was well if ye did, but let me tell you, i [...] Christ was so preached, as to cry up a bare relying on him, without obedience to his Gospel, as I fear too many did, this was a very antichristian [...] way of preaching Christ. Next, you got amongst you a world of nice subtilties, which you called Cases of Conscience, and these were handled with so metaphysical curiosities, that I know not what [...] to make of them: And the people that should▪ have been driven out of these, into the great practices of a Christian life, were too much flattered and humoured in them. I am sure our Saviour, and the Penmen of Scripture had no such stuff.

N.

This still discovers your carnal heart: God help you who understand not the wayes of the Spirit.

C.

Never tell me of other wayes of the Spirit, [Page] but holinesse, charity, and humility, &c. I do not deny but some devout people will be under doubtings and fears, but this is a weaknesse which ought not to be fed and humoured in them, and such scruples are to be satisfied in private. But to hear people, who lead but common lives, talk of such things, is unsufferable. I shall not here take notice of their strange methods, which they so much admired in preaching: though I could tell you how our Saviour and the Apostles used none of these: but I shall be sparing in this, it not being of so great, or necessary concernment.

N.

O but what powerfull Sermons were theirs! they made my very heart shake.

C.

I am glad it was so, but see that by power you do not mean a tone in the voice, a grimace in the face, or a gesture and action, or some strange phrases, these indeed affect the vulgar much: but considering people see through them, and value them little. The voice of God was a still voice, and Christ was not heard in the streets.

N.

But there were many converted by the preachings, and then there was a great love to the word, people running far to hear it.

C.

Truly I am so far from envy, that I wish from my Soul, where one was converted by you, a thousand had been. But see that by conversion you do not mean only, a change in opinion, or outward behaviour, which might be done upon interest: and remember that there was a kind of Proselytes, even to the service of God, who thereby became more the children of the devil, than they [Page]were. And see that you do not mistake every hea [...] in the fancie for a conversion; one thing I mu [...] challenge you of, that you call alwayes you [...] preachings, the word of God, for to term them so and yet to confesse, you may be mistaken in them is a contradiction, since Gods word is infallible▪ Your texts indeed are the word of God, but you [...] glosses on them, are but the words of fallibl [...] men: Now this was a great Art to conciliat [...] hudge veneration and authority to your preachings; for you called them the words of the Lord and applied all the places of Scripture that belonged to the inspired and infallible preachers, unto your selves, that so you might be Rabbies in deed.

N.

I, but their lives was preaching, and the [...] looked like the Gospel indeed.

C.

I am far from denying that there were ver [...] good men among you, and there are some of the [...] whom I know to have the fear of God before thei [...] eyes: but I must say, they seem to be little advanced above babes in Christ. For your grea [...] men, how strangely did they involve themselve [...] in all businesses? and truly a medling temper, look not like a devout one: but, what great spirituality appeared amongst most of them? Leaders o [...] Churches and parties should be alwayes commending God and Religion to people, and truly hear there is little of this in their mouthes; shrewd presumption that there is not too much o [...] it in their hearts.

N.

Alas! you know us not, we seldom meet [Page] but, we expound Scripture, and have spiritual exercise amongst us.

C.

I confesse you have enough that way, but that looks more artificial and formal, but in your discourse, how few of your words are seasoned with salt, ministring grace to the bearers? which is a more genuine and native, and so a more convincing way of commending Godlinesse to people. But what great things of devotion, or holinesse, appear amongst you? who of you despise the world? give away your goods to the poor? who bear injuries without resentments and revenge? who are willing to be set at nought? who are mortifying themselves even in the lawfull pleasures of sense? who bear crosses without murmurings? and for the devotional part, who of you seem to live only to God, and consecrat your time and strength to divine exercises? truly these things are as little among you as any party [...] know: nay, one thing I cannot passe by, that you generally seem so desirous of being noticed i [...] your Religion; this is far from our Saviour practice.

N.

This is all your prejudicat opinion again [...] us, but had you been ever with us at our Communions, you would have been forced to confes [...] that God was amongst us.

C.

I never denied it, for I am far from being [...] hidebound, as to affix God to a party, as you to confidentlie do. But for your Communions, I a [...] not like to be much convinced by them, I cann [...] like your running so many miles to them, this [Page] [...]umultaurie and disorderlie; for if it be the Sacrament it self you value, you may have it neare [...] hand: but this shews, you idolize men too much [...] Next, at your Communions, all your businesse i [...] to hear and talk, whereas the truest preparation for that work, is, an inward stillnesse and recollection of mind; and certainly much talk at that time particularly in the very action it self, doth bu [...] draw out, and disturb the mind: and by reason o [...] your crouds, you cannot have occasion of such retirement as is necessary at so solemn a time. And to speak plainly, I cannot think persons very devout, who love rather to hear one talk, were it never so good purposes, than to retire inwardly and commune with their own hearts, and with God. Some of you will be many hours in publick worship, and perhaps not a quarter of an hour in secret devotions. It would look like [...] Christ, to be many hours secret in prayer, and very short in publick.

N.

I see nothing among us pleaseth you, but we are never the worse for all that.

C.

Truly I cannot admire what I judge but simple and mean. But another fault about your Communions, was, that you had them so seldom, against the expresse practice of the Apostles, who continued daily breaking Bread: and the whole Church in all ages and places, were frequent in this, which you brought to once a year. And who taught you to separate it from the rest of the solemn worship, and not have it every Lords day?

[Page]N.

That was, that by the unfrequency of it, it [...]ight be the more solemn.

C.

Then at length you confesse, you use your [...]wn devices, to make the worship of God more [...]lemn. But it had been much liker the Apostles, [...]o have celebrate frequently, but withall to have [...]oticed well such as did receive.

N.

Did you never observe the great devotion [...] our worship?

C.

Truly I am sorry, I saw so little of it: what [...]rreverence is it, that when prayer is in the [...]hurch, most of you [...]it on your breeches? is this [...]o approach unto God with the reverence be [...]omes dust and ashes? notwithstanding of the ex [...]resse command of Scripture, O come let us wor [...]hip, and bow down, and kneel down before the Lord [...]ur Maker, and you cannot say this was one of Moses rites.

N.

God looks not to the outward man, it is [...]he inward bowing and kneeling of the soul he regards; and it is your superstition to stand much [...]t these outward things.

C.

But we are commanded to glorifie God, as [...]ell with our bodies, as with our spirits. And [...]ow unhandsome is it, that we will not testifie that reverence to God, we would shew to a man, were [...]he but a few degrees above us? beside, you who alwayes call for Scripture, ought quickly to be convinced here? most Scripture-prayers being [...]aid, either to be in that posture, or in that which comes next in reverence to it, to wit, standing. Our Saviour kneeled when he prayed to the Father. [Page] St. Paul, both at Miletus and Tyre knee [...] ed down, and prayed with the people: though [...] Tyre, it was upon the shore, a pretty inconvenie [...] place for kneeling. You know how much Scri [...] ture I can bring, for kneeling or standing.

N.

But it is written, David sate before th [...] Lord, and prayed.

C.

But is not this strange; that you will brin [...] one practice, and follow that rather than the co [...] stant and universal practice registrated in Scripture [...] Beside, the word there doth not import that h [...] sate, but rather that he sifted himself before th [...] Lord. And then you do not consider that praye [...] was private, and it is undoubted, more solemnit [...] is necessary in publick, than in the private worship. Why then do you not kneel or stand in Churches [...] since you do so in secret, and in your Family-wor [...] ship? and why not as well, if not rather in the one nor in the other? truly this bewrayes both grea [...] weaknesse, and great irreverence. And beside th [...] irreverence of that wretched posture of [...]itting it is so convenient for your ease, that we see mo [...] sold themselves to sleep in the prayers: and suc [...] as do not so, seem to listen to the prayer, as the [...] do to the Sermon, without thinking they are t [...] joyn in it. And indeed to fit, is so grosse an abus [...] in prayer, unlesse some bodily infirmity impos [...] it, that I rather not see you come to our Church [...] es, than come to them thus to give a bad example.

N.

But since you named Family-worship, take but notice what order was amongst our Families [Page] they looking like little Churches: Our Masters of Families praying, praising, and expounding Scripture, with their Families; what, was not this a heavenly thing?

C.

I do approve of a part of it, and think it a pious and a Christian custome, to have Families worshipping God together, providing the way of it be grave and regular: of which I shall speak afterwards. But for Masters of Families, their expounding Scripture, it is intollerable, unlesse they be very intelligent persons. How patent a way otherwise may this prove, for venting and broaching errours, and heresies? but I would not have you value this too much: Otherwise I shall send you to the religious houses in the Church of Rome, where they have worship seven hours a day, in a word, those external things make not men good of themselves.

N.

But I hope you will not condemn private meetings, especially when a Minister is with us for spiritual conference.

C.

Truly the thing in it self looks fair and well, but since these secret assemblings have been much scandalized, since also they may be a cloak for hatching mischievous practices, and for debauching peoples minds into schism and faction, and to a contempt of the Publick Worship, they are not to be used. Let people meet as oft as they will in Church for Worship: and what is not fit to be said in a Church, is not fit to be said in a Chamber full of people. Such persons as desire resolution for their scruples, ought to ask it in private, and [Page] not in these thronged Conventicles. Since in su [...] matters the more private one be, the more li [...] he is to the lowly spirit: and the more talking be, he looks liker one that affects a name, and be thought somewhat. The Gospel is a humbl [...] simple thing, whereas formal affected stuff, loo [...] like the spirit of pride, and Pharisaical vanity, a [...] least it gratifies it too much.

N.

I see you will not allow us the praise w [...] truly deserve, but it is no matter, our record i [...] on high. The men in the world alwayes set a [...] naught the children of God, but at least you can [...] not deny us this glory, that were long in grea [...] unity.

C.

I love not the spirit of detraction, but I con [...] sess I wonder to see a party cryed up to the Hea [...] vens for nothing; since I can speak it with grea [...] sincerity, I could never see any thing amongst you that could raise in me any great veneration so [...] you. And I am sure, what ever do it, your unity will never do it. It is true, as long as you had to [...] do with these, whom you most unchristianly, and malicióusly called the Malignants, you were one, as Simeon and Levi were: but when ever that was done, you quickly broke amongst your selves and to let see how keen you were upon your contention, even though the ground of your first breach was soon taken out of the way; yet you kept up your differences, with as much heat, as if they had been the great matters of Christian Religion. How fierce were you one against another, in your Papers, Sermons, and Prayers? [Page] [...]ou had so inured the Pulpit to scolding, that in [...]any places it was the vulgar Dialect of that place; [...]nd this you did publickly in the sight of the Sun. [...]ea, so hot were you on both sides, that you [...]ould listen to no accommodation, nor to any [...]lew (they were very few) who would have brought [...]hings to a temper.

N.

This was our fault, but you exaggerat the [...]natter too much.

C.

I do it but with truth, and to shew that the spirit moved among you, was so contentious, that when you had no bodie to contend with, you fought amongst your selves. Yea, upon the happie revolution; how hot was the Partie among you which prevailed against the other, and was beginning snaply to depose them, till you were allarm'd that the Bishops were coming in, and so left it to them?

N.

Now you are malicious, to inveigh so against us, you know I can repay you in your own coin. I will then go to, and examine your way next.

C.

I never doubt, but you can scold well, but we have had a sharp bout of it, we will therefore draw breath a little.

DIALOGUE III.

[Page]

N.

BY all you have hitherto said, one shou [...] expect there were some extraordina [...] sublime thing among you; but he that looks o [...] must consess, that all these defects you charge [...] us, are far more amongst you; besides, you con [...] short of us, in what you acknowledge was go [...] amongst us. So that you have all our evil, a [...] none of our good: And you dare not deny, but our dayes Scotland looked liker a Christian Churc [...] than it doth at this day.

C.

Do not mistake me, as if I were so ingage [...] to any interest, or party, as blindly to defend i [...] which most of you commit. I am so far Episc [...] pal, as to love the Order, and to live in peac [...] and submission under it. But I never swore sea [...] ty to any Sect. My hearty wish, and daily earne [...] prayer to God, is, that all these distinguishin [...] names were buried, and out of head, that [...] with united force we may all joyn to advance th [...] true and everlasting designs of the Gospel. As fo [...] the sins many among us are guilty of, I abhor th [...] thought of patronizing them; and, may be, som [...] of us, though we love not in publick to be eve [...] speaking of the times, whereby peoples mind are easily bribed to a contempt of the Gover [...] nours; a sin little noticed by you: yet in secre [...] mourn for these things as bitterly as any of you [Page] [...]o. But remember you your selves are guiltier [...] the present loosness, than perhaps you think.

N.

How can that be, since for as bitter as you [...]re against us, you dare not charge us with coun [...]enancing of vice.

C.

But you make Religion such a cloak to so [...]any State-designs, that this makes too many [...]mpiously to suspect Religion to be but a design [...]f it self. Beside, you drove people to an out [...]ard compliance with you, in many of your forms, against their hearts, which hath made them nauseat [...]t all Religion: not being able to judge betwixt Religion and these mistakes. But that which is of greatest weight, is, that our Saviour knits the abounding of iniquity, with the waxing cold in love; now, how faulty you are in this, I shall easily demonstrate.

N.

No peace, saith my God, to the wicked; you ever charge our hating of sin, as uncharitableness: whereas this is but zeal for God and his truth.

C.

These are the false glosses you put on things, but take notice of the humour of your people, you are apt to judge us in these matters which are doubtful disputations, and think a man no good Christian except he be of your Party. Next, you are ever listening to, and spreading a great many tattles of us, which are the great subjects of your discourse; and what can be more uncharitable than this is? You also carry sourly, and unkindly to us, as if we were of another Religion, and shun all converse or friendship with us: You likewise cast very odious aspersions upon us, as [Page] Apostates, Changlings, Time-servers, and th [...] like. and some of you rail at us, most petulantly: Now whereas you alwayes talk of persecutio [...] truly it is more on our side than yours: for, t [...] an ingenuous spirit, if he be not much above a [...] these things, such usage chiefly when it is universal, is a far greater trial, than to suffer a little i [...] the world.

N.

Truly I do not deny, but too much of tha [...] you speak is true, and I wish there were more charity on all sides. But, are not most of you Apostates, Changlings, and Time-servers?

C.

What invidious work is it for you to faste [...] that Brand, which the Christian Church only stained those with, who fell off from Christianity to Heathenism, upon the leaving of a party? Looks not this like the spirit of the Devil? just as if one should apply all the places in the Epistles against the horrid heresies and crimes of the Gnosticks, to every little errour, which you are ready enough to do. And as for changing, except you make it a reproach for a man to grow wiser, it can be none for a man to see he was once mistaken. This generation was engaged by you, ere they could well consider things, to your way, and your oaths, and then you strive to keep them alwayes in a non-age, by telling them they must be stedfast, and that it is a snare after vowes to make enquiry. And what strange doctrine is it, to tax an obedience to the Laws of the Kingdom (when in our consciences we can so do) as time-serving? [Page] Nay, perhaps as I hinted before, you are the greater time-servers.

N.

Well, though I owe charity to your per [...]ons, yet I owe none to your wayes, and I call what [...]s black, black, therefore I can never be reconci [...]ed to your Episcopacy.

C.

This head falls asunder in two things; The one is, a general consideration of that Government; The other is, supposing it were as you think it, how far you ought to separate from what is [...]misse. Now, tell me what are your quarrels at Episcopacy?

N.

I cannot think that Church-men should be called Lords, and be great persons.

C.

This belongs not to the thing it self, but is an addition of the Christian Magistrates; and, Sir, [...]or Lord, and Gentleman, and Nobleman differ but in degree: Since then a Minister, were he never so meanly born, gets the temporal honour of a Gentleman put upon him, why may not the temporal honour of a Lord, be as well put upon a Bishop? surely this must not be considered by you.

N.

But they should not Lord over Gods heritage: therefore away with your Lord Bishop.

C.

If you understand all Scriptures as you do this, you may write excellent Commentaries: for, by Lording, is meant a tyrannical domination, as the word clearly imports, and not a title. Next, Gods heritage, which you apply to the Clergy, is not in the Text. All in the Greek, is▪ not tyrannizing over your Lots or divisions: and [Page] with whatever reason you put down Bishops from being as Noblemen, that same will prove, you Ministers ought not to be Gentlemen, excep [...] they be born such; and I sear your Leaders wi [...] have no minde to this.

N.

But this is not all: my chief quarrel again [...] Bishops is, that they are a function of mans de [...] vising, and no where instituted by God.

C.

Truly you may speak soberly here, for be [...] fore I meddle with this, I will shew in a few things that however you talked bigly of jus divinum yet you minded it as little as any could. You [...] Lay-Elders, though I deny them not to be a good institution, are founded on no Scripture, as no [...] the most judicious of your party own: For whe [...] you urge, that because the Apostle gives rules on [...] ly for Bishops and Deacons, that the other orde [...] of Diocesan Bishops must be shuffled out; how a [...] that same time did you not see, that ruling Elder [...] were not there? and the places you alledge fo [...] them, are so abused, that it appears you fir [...] resolve to maintain them, and next to seek Scrip [...] ture-proof for them. The Brethren in the Council of the Apostles, proves too much, that the [...] are judges of doctrine; which yet you will no [...] own. Beside, it is absurd to think that was [...] Church Judicature, as shall soon appear. Tha [...] of ruling with diligence, is fond; for there, is mad [...] an emuneration of Christian duties, and if you mak [...] an office for all there, we shall I have more ranks o [...] Church-men, then they of Rome have. And it i [...] palpable, that by helps and Governments, are meant [...] [Page] some extraordinary Gifts. Who would not pity men who build upon such sandy foundations?

N.

But what say you to the Elders that rule well?

C.

Truly this is far from instituting an office; for, this speaks of an office then in being; so, by some other place, you must prove their institution. There are five or six several glosses put on these words, but I protest, I think any of them appears more genuine then yours. That which I conceive the true sense of the words, is, Let such among you as are fixt to rule particular charges, be doubly honoured: but especially those Evangelists, who have no medling with rule, but labour in word and doctrine. Thus you see how [...]ill grounded your Elders are. Next, how want you Deacons?

N.

It seems you know our Discipline ill, that know not we had Deacons.

C.

I know very well you had somewhat called Deacons, but this was only a name to deceive the people, who otherwise might have been startled, to have found Deacons in their Bibles, and not in your Churches; but I tell you, your Deacons are [...]o Scripture-deacons, who were not as yours are, Lay-persons, but Ecclesiastick, and separate by the [...]mposition of hands for that function, and so were [...]o continue. Beside, where was it ever heard of, [...]hat a Church-office was taken from any, without [...] fault? whereas you yearly altered your Elders [...]nd Deacons. Next, why wanted you Diaconesses, [...]nce the Scripture is so particular about them, [Page] telling of their order, of their being received to it, of their Qualifications, of their Age, and of their Imployment?

N.

Truly I have heard many of our Ministers say, the want of them was a fault.

C.

Next, why wanted you Evangelists, since there are still men who have peculiar eminencies in preaching? why should they be confined to one charge, and not to be made to preach over a countrey, as they shall be called?

N.

That was an extraordinary thing, which was in the dayes of the Apostles.

C.

This is well asserted: any thing in Scripture that makes for you, call it ordinary, and what doth not please you, is extraordinary. But truly, since it is impossible to get a whole Church served with such a Ministery, as were to be desired, it seems to be necessary, even in those dayes, to have an office of Evangelists. But further, in what place of Scripture read you your classical Subordination of Sessions to Presbyteries, &c? This I acknowledge is rational and orderly, but founded upon no divine right.

N.

How did they of Antioch send up to these at Ierusalem? and are not the spirits of the Prophets subject to the Prophets?

C.

By the last place, it is clear, he is speaking of Parochial Churches, which subjection none deny; but for the former, it is ridiculous to urge it, since it is certain they of Antioch sent not up to Ierusalem, either as to a Church superior to it, or as to an Oecumenick Council, but to men [Page] there, who were immediatly inspired by God: as the Iews consulted the high Priest his U [...]im and Thummim; and if that was a Council, then all Councils may speak in their stile, which none but a Papist can say. For to preface our acts, with, It seems good to the Holy Ghost, and yet to say, we are subject to error, is a contradiction. And thus the subordination of your Courts was a meer humane device; so that if the jus divinum be the rule, the Independants had the better of you. But as for your Discipline, what warrand of Scripture have you for it?

N.

The excommunicating the Incestuous person, and the noting those that walk disorderly, &c.

C.

I do not deny, but there are clear grounds for separating scandalous persons from our Worship; but, why so many dayes? and why in a place of repentance? and why the use of Sack-cloath sometimes? is not this the device of men? bring Scripture for it?

N.

Sure the Church hath power to do in these things, as shall tend most to order: and the dayes, place, and habit, are but external things.

C.

Now I have you at a great advantage, though you understand it not. Why may the Church impose such dayes of penitence, and not as well order all for the sins of the year to be in penitence all the time of Lent? And why is one place made a part for Penitents to be in, and may not another with as good and better reason be made the proper place for Communicating? And why may not a Church-man officiat [Page] in a Surplice, as well as a penitent put on Sack-cloath? since the one is a ceremony expressive o [...] repentance, as well as the other is of innocence: and both were equally practised under the Law.

N.

I confesse, I did not think on these things, but I believe our Ministers have answers to them.

C.

You may well believe, for you shall never see it, for there is no imaginable difference betwixt them: One thing I confesse, that a man once resolved not to believe a thing, if he have any subtiltie of spirit, will make a shift to say somewhat upon any thing. But I have not done with shewing your difformity with the Scripture-pattern; since then we were just now speaking of the Council at Ierusalem, why do you not observe that Law?

N.

Because that was only to bury the Synagogue with honour, and as for the meats offered to idols, St. Paul takes that away.

C.

This is like you, still to devise fancies against expresse Scripture; where sayes the Scripture, that was done to please the Jews? as for St. Paul, consider that he wrote his Epistle before he went to Ierusalem, and yet St. Iames tels him these things were still observed there; which shews, that a thing may be obligatory in one place, and not in another: and so, that in these externals, commands are not intended for lasting obligations. Next, why use you not washing of feet, since there is no Sacrament set down more punctually in Scripture? The Element is, Water, the Action, washing the feet, the Institution, as I have done, so do ye, and ye [Page]ought to wash one anothers feet, and the spiritual use of it, is humility. Why do you not therefore use this rite?

N.

Why do not you use it, since you cannot refuse the Scripture more than we?

C.

For all such matters, I have a clear answer, that in these externals, God intended no perpetual obligation; and therefore in them I follow the practice of the Catholick Church. Next, in your Worship, why do you not kisse one another with a holy kisse? why do you not anoint the sick with oyl, as St. Iames commandeth?

N.

It is clear, that was extraordinary, for he promises recovery upon the anointing.

C.

No such matter, it is upon the prayer of faith, that he promises recovery, he also promiseth forgivenesse, and since you pray by all, and do not say that it is more then a mean for their being raised up and forgiven; why do you not as well anoint, since the Scripture commands it? But all this shews, that however, with women, and simple people, you talk much of your sticking to the Word, and by your grave nods, and big words would perswade them, that it is so; yet you are as far from it as any. I shall end all this with an instance of great importance, who taught you the change of the Sabbath? I am far from speaking against the Church that did so, but you will read the Bible long ere you finde it there; that of their meeting on the first day of the week, sayeth not, that they antiquated the Saturnday; that of the Lords day, saith yet lesse for it.

[Page]N.

Well, what make you of all this? it may well prove, our Church was not perfect; it never justifies you. Or, do you mean to lay aside the Scriptures?

C.

It once checks your insolence, who pretend so big, upon so light grounds; and it is certainly a directer opposition to Scripture, to neglect what is expresly enjoyned, as you do, than to add in some lesser matters. All I say upon the whole matter, is, that the Scriptures were designed by God, for the purifying the hearts and conversations of men; and therefore it was not necessarie they should contain direct rules; for the Church-policy, which being a half civil matter, needs not divine warrands; and therefore the common rules are in Scripture, that there should be Church Officers, that those should be separate for that Function, that they should be obeyed, that things should be done to order, edification, and peace. These are everlasting obligations, because the reasons of them are perpetual: But the other rules were accommodat to the then state of things; which altering, they alter likewise. And this is so rational, that I can see nothing to be excepted against it, with any shew or colour of reason. Nay, this looks like the Christian liberty, for, whereas the old dispensation was bound up, and limited to the smallest matters, Christ hath delivered us from that law of Ordinances, and hath made us free.

N.

This is to take the Crown off Christs head, and to pull him off his Throne, and to deny him [Page] King, which was the good confession he witnessed before Pilate, and for which he came into the world; this also makes him unfaithful, and inferiour to Moses.

C.

These are fine devices to terrifie simple people, and with such talk you triumph among women, and in your Conventicles. But, how little reason will suffice to let a man see through that canting? I say then, Christs Crown, his Throne, and Kingdom, is an inward and spiritual one, and not of the world, nor as the Kingdoms of the world: And a great part of his Kingdom, is, the liberty whereto he hath called us, freeing us from the yoke of the former slavery and pedagogy. And since no Allegory holds, it is ridiculous to argue, because offices in a Kingdom are named by the King, therefore it must be so in the Church; since you may as well say, there must be coin stamped by Christ. Beside, what King will think his prerogative lessened, by constituting a Corporation, to whom he shall leave a liberty to cast themselves into what mould they please, providing they obey the general lawes, and hold that liberty as a thing depending upon him? Christs faithfulnesse consisted in his discharging the Commission given him by the Father; of which, whosoever doubts, let him be Anathemae Maranathae. But, who told you, it was in the Fathers Commission? If you argue from Moses, it will say more than you will grant, that all particulars must be determined: since then, as Moses determines the dayes of separation for a legal uncleannesse, why [Page] doth not the Gospel determine the separation [...]o [...] spiritual uncleannesse? Nay further, consider Moses instituted no Church-Government, in the way we use it; for that of the Tribe of Levi, and house of Aaron, was only Typical, and to wait on the Temple, and the Worship to be performed there. Beside which, they had Synagogues all the Land over, and wherever they had Colonies in the World, and in these they had their Rabbies, their Scribes, and their Rulers, and their chief Ruler of their Synagogues, which read their Law, performed such Worship as was not tyed to the Temple at Ierusalem, and they inflicted Discipline upon offenders: and these might have been of any Tribe, not only of that of Levi; and yet our Saviour never challengeth this, but went in to the rulers of their Synagogues; the like you finde done by his Apostles, and they never declame against it, as an humane invention. Whence it must follow, that you must grant, either what they did, was founded on divine tradition (which no Christian will grant) or that a form of Government was devised by men, and yet no unlawful thing. And if the Jews had such liberty, certainly the Christian Church is at least more free, as to these externals. And after all, since Christ is the Head of the World, as well as of the Church, why did not he determine the order of the one, as well as of the other?

N.

The odds is very great, for his Church is dearer to him than all the world.

C.

Why then doth he not determine how his [Page] Church should be governed, as to the civil matter, since Justice is a part of his Law, as well as devotion? and the civil peace, I hope, you will grant, is more necessary to the very being of the Church, than is order in Discipline; and so it was determined in the old Law, but yet it is left at liberty in the new. And though I should grant, the Church, as Church, is dearer to Christ, then as they are men, a foolish and childish nicety: Yet a King, though he looks most to what is dearest to him, he will have his authority acknowledged in all his dominions: whence it will, with the same parity of reason follow, that since Christ is the King of the earth, there should be no Offices in it, but of his appointment.

N.

I never loved this carnal reason, it is an enemy to Religion: Our Ministers bring us to the Bible for every thing they say, but you come on with your reason.

C.

Truly you have good cause to be against reason, for it and you cannot both prevail. If by carnal reason, you mean a sober examining things, by the dictates of Nature; see that you condemn not that, which is indeed the voice of God in us, and therefor is to be received. And if you make this contrary to Religion, you bring as great a stain upon Religion, as an Atheist could devise: But if by reason, you mean little pittiful nibling with some ill understood, and worse applied distinctions, out of Aristotle and Ramus, as is very frequent among you, that is justly called vain Philosophy. And for Scripture, do not think they [Page] build surest upon it, who are ever quoting it fastest; the Devil did that, and so do all Sects. And thus if you can rightly weigh things, I have said enough to convince you, that in matters of Government, the Church is at liberty: But if you will still go to Scripture, I can positively say, though in it nothing amounts to a demonstration; There are fairer likelihoods for Bishops, from that of the Angels of the Churches, than ever you shall find in it for Presbytery: but I will not say more of this. Next, let me tell you how soon this Government was in the Church.

N.

I will not deny, tares sprung very early in Gods Husbandry, but that will never convince me. To the Law, and to the Testimony; for from the beginning it was not so.

C.

You do well to possess your self with a prejudice against these Churches; but think soberly, whether is it likelier, that those who lived so nigh the sacred time, understood the mind of the Apostles better then we do, at the fagg end of an thousand and six hundred years? As also, whether is it liker, that the Church then, alwayes in the fire of persecution, was purer then she is now? God bless me from the pride of comparing my self with these worthies, who were honoured to convert the world, and to die for the truth?

N.

But Bishops were not in the two first Centuries, as our Ministers say.

C.

They are grossly ignorant, or disingenuous, who say so, all History being against them: Ignatius [Page] Epistles are plain Language. The Apostolical Canons (a work of very venerable antiquity, at least the first 50 of them, though none of theirs perhaps) all over, shew the difference was then betwixt Bishops and Presbyters, particularly the 40. Can. The Presbyters and Deacons shall finish nothing without the Bishop's sentence: For, he is intrusted with the people of God, and shall be required to give account of their souls. And the same thing was also enjoyn'd, Syn. Azel. Can. 19. And in Cyprian's time it is undenied, that their power was then well regulate and settled. For though that great Saint and Martyr tells, lib. 3. Epist. 10. That he had decreed in the beginning of his Bishoprick to do nothing without the advice of his Presbyters, yet, Ep. 9. of that book to Rogatian a Bishop, who had asked his advice concerning an affront he had received from a Deacon, he sayes, that by his Episcopal vigour and authority of his Chair, he had power presently to punish him: And towards the end of that Ep. he sayes, these are the beginnings of Hereticks, and the rise and designs of Shismaticks, to please themselves and contemn their Bishop with insolent pride. And it is clear, Presbyters at that time, even in the Vacancy of a See, did not judge themselves sufficiently impowred for Ecclesiastical administration, by what the Presbyters and Deacons of Rome write to Cypr. lib. 2. Ep. 7. saying, That since a Bishop was not at that time chosen, in place of the deceased Fabian, there was none to moderate [Page]all things amongst them, who might with authority and advice take account of matters: Sure they thought little of Presbyters, being equal in power to their Bishop, who write so of a Church wherein the Episcopal power might seem devolved on them. But, I believe, few of you know these Writings. In the Council of Nice, speaking of the power of Metropolitans, which was an additional thing to that of Bishops over Presbyters: The Canon sayes, Let the ancient Customs be in force. Now, how this excressing power should have crept into the whole Church, and no mention when it came in, no temporal Princes, nor universal Councils to introduce it, and that at a time of persecution, when the Church was least to be suspected of pride, no Secular consideration being to flatter this power; nay, on the contrary, they alwayes bore the first brunt of the Persecution; and how none opposed it, if this was not introduced by Apostles, or Apostolical men, passeth my divination. Neither can any thing be alledged against this, but some few or disjoynted places of some Authors, which at most prove, that they judged not the origine of Bishops to be Divine▪ But none except Aerius (branded upon that account with Heresie, both by Augustine and Epiphanius) [...]id ever speak against the difference was betwixt Bishops and Presbyters. And for the few places they alledge, should I reckon up all that from these same Authors may be brought for it, I should grow too tedious. [Page] Ierom is he for whom they triumph, but upon very small ground: for, beside that he being but a Presbyter, might have exalted his own dignity to the height, and his fervent (I had almost said fiery) spirit, drives him along in every thing to an excesse; as may appear from, not only his ingadgements with Iovin. Vigilan. and Ruffin. but even with the incomparable St. Austine: all can be drawen from his words, is, that the difference betwixt Bishop and Presbyter, was only of degree and not of office, and that the difference was not of Divine, but Ecclesiastical authority: but even he expresly confesseth, that Presbyters did not ordain, and that the origine of the exercising power was in the dayes of the Apostles, to prevent Schisms; for, he sayes, that from the dayes of St. Mark, till Denis and Heraclas, there were constantly Bishops in Alexandria; and he compares the Bishop, Presbyters and Deacons in the Church to Aaron the High-priest, his sons the Priests and the Levites in the Temple, and sayes that it was decreed through the whole World, that one Presbyter should be set over the rest; and to root out the seeds of difference, the whole care was laid upon one: for all this, see Ier. ad Euag. and upon Titus: and from this you may see how little shew of ground there is from him or any other Church-writter to reject the Episcopal authority.

N.

But these Bishops were not such as ours are.

[Page]C.

I confess they were better men, than either Bishops, or Presbyters alive are: But he knows little Church-story, who knows not, that the Presbyters did nothing without them, and that particularly, Presbyters could never ordain without a Bishop.

N.

Well then, as it was good then, so it may be ill now, and there is our present case.

C.

I say still, it is a rational, just, and a most necessary thing, that the Senior, and most approven Church-men, be peculiarly incharged, as well with the trial of Intrants, as with the inspection of the Clergy: since no order of men needs so much to be regulated, as that of Church-men. And therefore unless they be all equal in gifts, and parts, they ought not to be equal in power and authority. If the power of Bishops be at any time abused, it is but that to which all humane things are lyable: nor can Presbytery be freed of that, but let the common maxime in such cases be applyed to this, remove the abuse, but retain the use.

DIALOGUE IV.

[Page]

N

YOu have said, I confess, a great many things, that I cannot well answer; yet my conscience still tells me, that Episcopacy is no good Government; and I cannot act against my Conscience.

C.

You must remember, this is the Plea of all Hereticks, who still pretend Conscience. I confess there is nothing in the world, wherein I desire to be more tender, than in offering the least violence to Conscience, there not being a wider step to Atheism, than to do any thing against the conviction of Conscience. But see it be not humour, and wilfulness, that you scorn to change your opinion, or love to your party: whom you dare not displease: or vanity, that you may be noticed; or faction; Or simple and blind following of your Leaders, without clear convictions in your own mind; all which, for most part, are the true reasons of schisms, though Conscience be ever pretended. And remember, that God will not hold them guiltless, that take his Name in vain, so you shall not pass unpunished, if you pretend Conscience, and be not acted by it.

N.

How then must I examine any perswasion, to know if it be conscience, or not?

C.

If you find in your heart a serious desire to please God in all things, together with a desire of obeying the Laws of the Kingdom, and of complying [Page] with the Church, in what you judge lawfull, but out of grounds which appear to you founded upon the will of God, you are led to a perswasion, this is Conscience: provided there be joined with it, a modest distrust of your self, with a charitable opinion of those that differ from you. And such as are of this temper, were their judgements never so bemisted, I reverence, and love: Weigh the matter therefore in just scales, and I doubt you shall see, that at best, you are led by a blind and implicite obedience, for I will not uncharitably censure you as guilty of worse.

N.

You are so proudly blown up, with an opinion of your self, that you think all who are not of your mind, are [...]lind and ignorant at best: whether is not this arrogance in you?

C.

Consider my grounds, ere you give a judgement against me. I say then, private persons have nothing to do with matters of Government; your business is, to submit in these things, and not to judge: For, whether think you, God in the great day, will call you to answer at his Tribunal, if you were Episcopal, or Presbyterian? As also, since the great design of the Gospel is, to purify the heart; these things which have no tendency to the purifying▪ or blotting of the Soul, are not matters of Conscience: And these are two easie Rules, whereby private persons might well examine their Consciences.

N.

But if we think you are wrong, can we joyn with you?

C.

First, I say, you can have no rational ground [Page] to think us wrong, in matters of Religion: And since it is not a matter of Religion, and Salvation, you cannot without being Schismatical, separate from us. But further, even every errour in Religion, ought not to unty the bond of the unity of the Catholick Church, unless the errour be of greater importance, than the Communion of Saints is: a consideration which you never seem to weigh. How did the Apostle St. Paul become a Iew to the Iews? though he tells us to do these things, out of an opinion of necessity in them, was to antiquat the crosse of Christ. And let all men judge, whether to circumcise, and purify in the Temple, were not greater compliances, in matters more justly to be scrupled, than what we contend about. Nay, the free spirit of Christianity, made St. Paul see well that these externals were of themselves nothing; so that either doing, or forbearing in them, might be acceptable to God; as he clearly sheweth in his fourteenth Chapter to the Romans. Yea, he carrieth this liberty further, even to an instance, which I confess, I should never have yeelded to, had not he determined in it; that is, the eating in the Idols Temples, of their feasts, and eating meat offered to Idols. Now, if St. Paul did this freely, both to Jew and Gentile, are not you bound to more obedience, when not only charity, but duty to the Laws exact it? This sheweth how far you are, both from the free and charitable spirit of St. Paul.

N.

It is true, he complied in these things, [Page] but it was freely, and not when it was exacted, as you do of us. Next, he avoided to do these things, when they occasioned scandal, which is our case.

C.

You in this bewray great simplicity; for St. Paul did not refuse compliance, because they were commanded by authority, which you do: but because certain false brethren came to spy out his liberty, to whom he gave place by subjection, no not for an hour. If therefore any require your compliance, as if it were necessary of it self, you have reason to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made you free. But it is unsufferable peevishness, to say, if the Magistrate enjoyn a thing, declaring that it is still free in it self, and only necessary, because it is commanded, upon that score, to refuse obedience. And may not offenders as well refuse to undergo the Discipline you enjoyn them, and say, though the thing be lawful, yet it is but indifferent, and therefore they cannot obey you, because you command things indifferent, which, as you reason, makes them necessary. As for the point of scandal, do not mistake it, as if the displeasing your party, were a giving of scandal, as many of you weakly think; to give scandal then, is, to stretch your liberty, when that freedom of yours, may draw others to follow your practice, though they have not the same clearness in their mind. And hence it appears, that to avoid scandal, is only an abridging your liberty, for the good of your brother. If therefore you be not at liberty, but already restrained in it by the lawful command [Page] of authority, you ought not in that case to be disobedient, upon a pretence of avoiding scandal. But I shall yet examine the matter of conformity, more closly. And, first, why do not your Ministers join with our Courts for Church-discipline?

N.

They cannot do it, because they are no Legal Courts, the Law that established them being taken away, so that now they are but the Bishops Deputies.

C.

I have before studied to convince you, that all that is divine in Discipline, is, that scandalous persons be noted, and separated from worship; but how this shall be administered, can be no matter of Religion; since, wherein are souls concerned, whether a Court, acting in a parity, or with one over them, do this; providing it be done? But waving this, whether judge you the Presbyters power for Discipline is founded upon a Divine Law, or upon the Act of Parliament? no doubt, you will say, the first: well then, can the abolishing that Act of Parliament take away your power? if not, you ought to sit in these Courts, and still do your duty.

N.

But this is to sit in a Bishops Court, which acknowledgeth his authority.

C.

I pray you, suppose the case, that the King should abrogate all Laws for the worship of God, and declare, that all that assemble to worship God, shall be understood to worship Mahomet, and thereupon oblidge all to meet; though you meet not upon that command, yet I hope you [Page] will still meet to worship God; let them interpret that as they please. So, I say, since a power of Jurisdiction, is that to which Presbyters lay claim, by a divine right, they ought to meet in these Courts, let the Law call it what it will.

N.

But the Bishop is over them, and overruleth them as he pleaseth.

C.

But, suppose this were true, and that Episcopacy is a tyranny in the Church; Why ought you not to submit to them, as well as you did to the late Tyrants in the State? And why, as your Ministers say, they will be content to take Churches, and preach, but let Discipline alone; which is a quiting of some of their Rights, that they may retain the greater? May they not as well exercise Discipline, though they cannot do it with all the liberty they desire? Sure, there is nothing but peevishness in this.

N.

Do you think our Ministers would quite their Churches, and liberty of Preaching the Gospel, which is dearer to them than all the world, for any thing but Conscience?

C.

I am not so severe as to doubt, but in most of them it is Conscience; but I must adde, it is ill informed Conscience. But what can you pretend, for your peoples withdrawing from our Churches? since our Religion, in Doctrine, Worship and Discipline, is the same: only a small alteration in the point of Government is made.

N.

I am not for separating from you, as my practice tells, but much may be said for it; therefore I will judge none that do it.

[Page]C.

Truly I desire to be as sparing in passing Judgements on people, as any can be: but since separation must be either a necessary duty, or a very great sin, being a forsaking the unity of the Church: it can be no light matter to tear the Body of Christ, when there is scarce a colour of pretence for it. Now, the Schismatical humour among you, appears palpably in this, that you come sometimes to Church, but seldom; this seems indeed to be time-serving, that you may both evite the punishment of the Law, and also retain your interest with your party; for, if you come once in three moneths, you may come every Lords day; and if you may come, you ought to come; otherwise you forsake the assemblings of the Saints, and contemn what you call the Ordinances. Others of you also joyn with some of us, but not with others. Now as to our publick transgressions (if they be such) we are all equally guilty, why then make you a difference? Others of you come to Churches in the Countrey, but do not so in the City: what doth this look like, but that you have freedom for the thing, but will not do it, for fear of being noticed? which is to prefer the pleasing of men, to the pleasing of God. And finally, some of you joyn with us in the ordinary Worship, but will not communicat with us, which bewrayes great solly; for if you may pray and praise with us, which is the spiritual communicating: why do you not joyn in the Eucharist, which is but solemn praise?

[Page]N.

How can we acknowledg them our Pastors, who are intruders, and are in the places of our faithful shepherds, whom you have torn from us?

C.

Supposing it were as you assert, yet that will never warrand your separating from them: since, although by the Law of Moses, the eldest of the house of Aaron was high Priest; and the Romanes by force driving them from their right, exposed this most sacred function to sale, so that the high Priests not only invaded the right of others, but also obtained their office by the most horrid Simony imaginable; yet Caiaphas, as high Priest, prophesied; Our Saviour also answered at his Bar, and gave confession, when he authoritatively adjured him, in the Name of the living God. St. Paul also acknowledged Annanias. And though the Pharisees were wretched teachers, guilty both of greater crimes and heresies, than you dare charge on us; Yet our Saviour saith, hear them, for they sit in Moses Chair. This is so convincing, that nothing in reason can be alledged against it: Yea, it was the doctrine of your own Teachers. Finally, what cruelty is it, if a Minister be put from his place, be it justly or unjustly, that the people should be starved? It shews your Ministers can have no love to their flocks, if they desire it should be so.

N.

But your Curats are naughty men and weak preachers.

C.

This is an excellent piece of Religion in you, to take up, and use reproachful names of your Pastors. For though the name Curat, be [Page] a designation, no Minister ought to be ashamed of; it signifying one that hath the care of Souls; yet ye use it as a term of contempt: and this is your obedience to St. Pauls rule, honour them that are over you in the Lord: Which, as he addes, is for their works sake, and not for their persons sake, as you do. As for their persons and Gifts, where is Christian charity, that should make you slow to take up a bad impression upon slight grounds? But if your grounds be good, where is your charity to the Church? since you do not make it known, that they may be cast out. Beside, it will open a very wide door to separation, if you say, that upon the personal failings, much more weaknesse of a Preacher, you may separate. This is to ty the good of Church Worship to him that mannageth it. And further, it seems, you think to hear Sermon, all you go to Church for: But the chief reason of our meeting, is solemnly to acknowledge God, and that we are members of his Church: which we can do, be the Minister what he will; and hear good Scriptures read, and sing good Psalms. Besides, let me tell you, you are not so zealous for good Preachings, as you would make the world believe. For, are there not many of your Preachers, who, while they were in place, were of no esteem, nor following; and are undoubtedly men of weak Gifts, yet now are crouded to by you? and the Church Sermons are deserted, and their Conventicles frequented. All the reason for this is, because they rail against the Church and State; [Page] which is the only way to make a man popular amongst you.

N.

You have pretended to answer a great many things, but one thing remains, wherein our chief strength lieth, and that you shall never be able to unbind; which is, the Covenant: wherein the whole Nation, and the generations to come in their loins are engaged; and, can such sacred and solemn vowes be broken, without shameful perjury?

C.

This you alwayes bring out as your Goliah, to defy the Armies of the living God. But as Sampson's strength lay in his hair, without which he was as other men; so upon a full survey, it appears that the Covenants strength consisted in the Armies that fought for it, and not in any inward or innate vigour. And, first, what a ridiculous fancy is it, to say, Children can be bound by their fathers Oath? is not this to make us the servants of men, and to give them authority over our consciences; which is Gods peculiar power? Alas, what kind of souls have you, that can be led into such conceits!

N.

Doth not the fathers debt oblidge the son? why not also his oath?

C.

A mans debt affects his estate, which if the son get, he is bound to pay the debt. But if the son get no estate by his father, then I hope you will not say he is bound to pay his fathers debt. And this shews that the fathers promises binde nothing upon the sons conscience.

N.

But are not we bound to duty to the King, [Page] because of the Allegeance our fathers swore, even though we never swear it our selves?

C.

Not at all, because they swore Allegeance, but because the right of the Crown is in the Kings person, and therefore we are born his Subjects.

N.

But how was Adam oblidged for his Posterity, if Parents cannot binde their children?

C.

This is strange dealing, to apply a mysterie of our faith, which we cannot well comprehend, to your triffling matters. But take notice, that Adam did not binde his children, by his undertaking for them, but by a secret transaction of Gods; who covenanted with him, as with the common head of mankind. And if Parents can bind duties upon their children, they may as well bind sins upon them. And this is new Doctrine unheard-of in the Church, which never acknowledged any Original sin, but that derived from Adam.

N.

How then do Parents vow for their children in Baptism? and are not they bound by the Baptismal vow, taken by the father, in their name?

C.

The Parent binds for the childe, as a tutor in legal matters for his Pupil: that is, they bind for their interest. The childe is indeed tyed by his Baptism, not as it was his fathers vow, but because by the command of God, he was Baptized into the likenesse of Christ.

N.

How then is Saul charged, and his children punished for killing the Gibeonites?

[Page]C.

It was not because he had falsified the oath, the Princes swore: which is no where said But these Gibeonites, by that oath, got a right to their lives; and so were excepted, when God ratified it, from the general command of cutting off the Canaanites: therefore, to kill them, wa [...] cruelty, and not perfidy. And Saul is not taxe [...] of perjury, but of blood. For although the second of Samuel make mention of the oath swor [...] to them, that is, only to reminde the Reader o [...] the History set down in Joshuah: but doth not at all say, the oath was still binding, as appears from the words. Thus I have taken more pains tha [...] was needful, to shew the ridiculous fondnesse o [...] this absurd notion: and have met with all ca [...] be said for it.

N.

Well, for all this, ye cannot deny but th [...] Covenant binds these who took it.

C.

I will, ere I come to that, let you see ho [...] little noise you made in the breaking it in som [...] things. When then the Tyrant had murdere [...] the King, enslaved this Nation, antiquated th [...] Covenant, discharged General Assemblies, Inhibited praying any more for the King, who the [...] stood up for the Covenant; or clamoured, a [...] you now do, of Apostacy, Tyranny, and Perjury I know, a few spoke somewhat, but it was so se [...] dom, so faintly, and so disguisedly, that it was fa [...] from the thundering that was in some of you [...] Pulpits before you were silenced, and as at thi [...] day is in your Conventicles. The true reason was ye knew the Tyrant would made no bones of ma [...] king [Page] heads fly, or sending you in Shipfuls to Barbadoes: but you presume upon the King's clemency. And you know what a trip some made, when upon a threatning of taking their Stipends [...]rom them, they passed from what, in a printed Paper, they had owned as their duty, both from Scripture and their Covenant.

N.

It is uncharitably done of you, to rake into these things: but if we were faulty in some particulars, that is ill corrected, by becoming so gross, as to renounce all.

C.

I medle with none of your private escapes, but such as were publick: and do it not, as I have often said, to reflect upon you; but to let you see, you are but as other men, and not such wonders, as you would have the world believe. I shall next tell you, what monstruous faults you committed in exacting the Oath, not returning upon what was hinted, Dial. 1. That it was a Bond of Rebellion, against the Lords Anointed. As for your National Covenant, what a cruel imposing upon Consciences was it, to make a Nation swear an Oath, which they could not understand? For you made them therein renounce all the Articles of Popery; amongst the rest, opus operatum, a Latine word, and abstruse conceit; with many other niceties, which you could not but know, your women and simple people did not understand. And was it not a contradiction, to make them swear against Worship in an unknown Tongue; and yet in that very Oath so to use it? For swearing is an act of Worship. [Page] Yea, you made them preface all this with a gre [...] lye, that it was after full and mature considerat [...] on of all particulars; when you knew they we [...] not capable of considering them. And wha [...] strange Tyranny over Consciences was it, t [...] make people swear in these matters, some wher [...] of might be disputable; so that a man could no [...] be of your communion, except he were in you [...] opinion in all things? A rigour never befor [...] practised but in Trent. Then, what a tr [...] pane was it, to make the Nation swear the Cov [...] nant, and by an after-game to declare that Epi [...] copacy was abjured in it? Next, what violen [...] used you to oblidge all to bow to this Idol [...] Church-men were not only deposed, who refuse it; but both Church-men and Lay-men were ex [...] communicated, if they did not submit to you [...] tyranny. What man of common sense can thin [...] this was the Cause of God, which had such mo [...] struous errours in its first conception?

N.

All you can say upon this head, may we [...] prove, there were some faults in imposing it but it still doth bind, since he shall dwell in Go [...] holy hill, who swears to his own hurt, and chan [...] eth not.

C.

I confess, Oaths, when the matter is lawfull, do oblidge: but if the nature of thing [...] change, so the matter grow unlawful, you th [...] cannot say the Oath binds. In a word, a man, or Society can only bind themselves, in things tha [...] are left to their power, and are in their own [...]: [Page] but if the matter be not in their power, [...]hen their Oath cannot bind them.

N.

That is not our case, since you acknow [...]edge the thing to be of it self indifferent.

C.

I confess, if you take the thing abstractly in [...]t self, it is indifferent: but as the case now [...]tands, it is not so: for, by the command of God, we are oblidged to obey the Magistrate in all things lawful: so that all just Laws oblidge our Consciences: And this is a tye before all Oaths. And as by no act of ours, we can be bound to break the commands of God; so, no more can we oblidge our selves to do any thing in prejudice of anothers right; such as is the Soveraign's Authority. Therefore, no Covenant can bind us to deny obedience to the King's Laws, because they are in a measure, the Laws of God; [...]nd it is his right to command us, from which, [...]o Act of ours can exclude him. Therefore, since the King and Parliament have annulled the Covenant, and required us to submit to Episcopacy, it can no more bind us.

N.

This is good Doctrine, to teach that we should obey man, rather than God.

C.

This is gross ignorance in you, it is, that we should obey God rather than our selves: for, the just Laws, are the mediate commands of God; whereas our Oaths were a voluntary deed of our own, to which we were not bound by any command of God. Now, if you comprehend not this clear demonstration, it is because you are a stranger to common sense.

[Page]N.

Wherein could Episcopacy have been mor [...] for the good of Scotland? or what could th [...] Kings reason be, for preferring it to Presbytery at least for judging it fitter for us?

C.

This is like all mutinous Subjects, to b [...] judging and censuring the actions of their Princes, unlesse they be on all their secrets, and kno [...] what all their reasons, and designs are. Go [...] hath given Kings the authority to command [...] and hath left us the glory of obedience; whic [...] we ought to do without further inquiry: provided what they enjoyn be against no comman [...] of God. But we need not seek to rifle the Ca [...] binets of the King, and his Councellors, ther [...] being many apparent cogent reasons, to have en [...] forced the change. You know what work you [...] Leaders occasioned, both to his Royal Grandfather, and Father, and to Himself. You had in [...] volved the Nations in blood; and not satisfie [...] with this, after you got all the security yo [...] could demand, you engaged with his enemie [...] in England, against him; you opposed the de [...] sign of delivering his Father, Anno 1648. In word, what jealousies had you justly raised in th [...] hearts of Princes, of your Government? an [...] your Tyranny (1649.) against the Nobility, ha [...] justly irritated them against you. Next, you ha [...] divided shamefully amongst your selves, on [...] great party amongst you, being such, that you [...] selves sound it necessary to turn them out; the [...] maxims being inconsistent with all Order and Government. And of these that are outed, i [...] [Page] [...]s clear, that more than three parts of four, are of that party. Why then are ye so blind as to [...]sk a reason for the change was made, as if at [...]oon one should ask where were the Sun?

N.

Sure you are an enemy to Godlinesse, who [...]ave an heart so to rail at us.

C.

I am such a lover of true piety, that for [...]ll this drosse that is amongst you, such of you, [...]s live well, and walk conscientiously, I still love [...]nd value; and the Searcher of hearts knoweth, [...]hat I daily pray he may finde a way to re-unite [...]s all again; and to bring such of your Leaders, [...]s are sensible of their errours, in these great [...]scapes, to a capacity of serving him in the Church. But it is strange you should take such [...] liberty, both in Discourses, Conventicles, and [...]rinted Writings, or rather Libells, to inveigh [...]gainst us; and then, if we but say a little for [...]ustifying the King, the Lawes, and our Consci [...]nces, and for undeceiving the people of these [...]ists you would cast over their eyes, then you [...]ry out, that we are uncharitable, bitter and malicious. Sure you who are so much for de [...]enfive arms, may, at least, allow us to defend the truth, the law, and our selves, with our Tongues and Pens.

DIALOGUE V.

[Page]

N.

I Confesse you have much shaken me in the matter of the Bishops, though I never find in my heart to love them. But one thing stil [...] sticks, they are great friends to the Common▪ Prayer-Book, which I cannot think upon in patience; and therefore I cannot joyn with them.

C.

Truly if that be your chief quarrel agains [...] them, it is as well grounded as the rest.

N.

How! do not you think it a great matter, to take from us the pure and spiritual Worship of God, and in stead thereof, set up a dea [...] and formal Liturgy?

C.

I perceive you are still abused after on [...] manner, your Leaders put big words in you [...] mouthes to make you stick stiffl [...]y by them; you [...] Government, they taught you to account the interest and Kingdom of Christ; they also woul [...] make you believe your Worship to be the onl [...] spiritual one, and all others but carnal. Now, [...] will let you see the great fallacy of this prayin [...] by the Spirit, as you understand it. To pra [...] by the Spirit, is, when out of a deep sense of ou [...] misery and need, and firm confidence in God, w [...] draw near to him, to offer up our prayers, an [...] praises to him, through Jesus Christ. Our heart [...] being moulded in this frame, we pray by th [...] Spirit; use we words, or not, the same, or di [...] ferent expressions. Nay, it will appear, w [...] [Page] are carnal, when we need to have our devotion tickled, and provoked with new words.

N.

Now, I clearly see the rottennesse of your heart, and your superstitious cold formality.

C.

This is great arrogance for you thus to judge of things ye understand not. Consider then, the Will is the supream power of the Soul, and the fancy is a lower faculty; the true and spiritual devotion therefore, must be that which lies in the Will, and not in the Fancy: now, the varying of one thing into several shapes, is only a gratifying of Fancy: and all the devotion can be raised by such Chimes, is only sensible, whereas one of a deep and stedfast spirit, is equally affected with a thing, though still in the same dress. Since then, for instance, our petition for pardon of sin, is fully comprized in this, have mercy upon me, O God, doth it not shew, that the thing, and not the words, affect him, who with the newnesse of affection, can make that prayer, though an hundred times repeated, at every return, new? whereas he must have a lower minde, who needs a new phrase to renew his servour. And thus you see, it expresseth a more spiritual temper, to be able to worship God in simple and constant forms.

N.

I never thought to have heard the Liturgy-Worship called spiritual, and the conceived one, carnal. You that are Schollers make any thing of any thing with your Logick, but you will never make me think but our Ministers prayed by the Spirit.

[Page]C.

It needs but a very little knowledge of our selves, and none of Logick, to make you comprehend this: for, do you think, the heating of the fancy cannot make wicked men pray without the Spirit, as to appearance very spiritually? Finally, words, and all the heat begot by words, gesture, voice, or phrases, or the like, are but a false fire in the natural powers of the Soul, which may well heat the brain, draw forth tears, seem to wring the heart; and all this, is but a sensible fervour, which (as the temper raised by musick) amounts to nothing, but to a present tickling; whereas the true devotion of the heart, is, an inward, still, humbling and melting thing, and so equable, that it is above these frisking fits of the fancy. And it is certain, to pray by the Spirit, must be the immediat work of the Spirit of Grace: Since then we see, that the praying in words depends most upon Memory, Fancy, Eloquence, Confidence and Custome; he that abounds in these, is like to excel in it; whereas one, defective in all these, so that he cannot pray in a variety of words, yet may understand interior prayer and spiritual converse with God, better than any other.

N.

This is new doctrine to me. And I cannot understand nor believe it.

C.

Consider then, that the sublimest way of prayer, is in the simplest acts: such as these; thou art my God, and I am thine. And in such breathings, a devout minde will persist long, with great sweetnesse: and in this, God hath strangely [Page] shapt Religion, so that the highest strain of it, is, what the simplest minde can most easily reach. Nay, perhaps multiplicity doth lead out the minde from pure and still devotion. And thus extemporary prayer, cannot be called praying by the Spirit, except by spirit you understand the animal or natural spirits: for, if it be by the Spirit, it must be infallible, since all that is dictated by the Spirit of God is so: yet your people do not assert their prayers as such. Further, let one with a short-hand, follow that mans prayer, who you say prayes by the Spirit; then, may not that prayer be read and used over again? or, is the Spirit in the prayer so volatile, that it evaporats in the saying, and the prayer becomes carnal when it is repeated? Finally, if praying by the Spirit, be a praying in new words, then only he that conceives the prayer, prayes by the Spirit: since they who hear and joyn with him, are tyed to his words.

N.

The words were dictated by the Spirit to him that conceives them.

C.

Then to the people it is not necessary, the words be new: since to them it is all one, if it were once dictated by the Spirit. But why do you not believe the prayer composed by the Church, to be of the Spirits dictating, as well as that of your Ministers? And, since the people can joyn and pray by the Spirit, though the words be not of their framing; why may not the Minister pray in the Spirit, though he use words framed by others? All this shows how weak and ill grounded a [Page] notion, that of praying by the Spirit, in the sense you understand it, is. And it clearly appears, that the dresse of the prayer in words, and the life begot by them, is but sensible and low.

N.

But doth not the Spirit help our infirmities, and teach us to pray?

C.

If you consider the words aright, they speak out a thing very far different from what you would draw from them. The Spirit teacheth us to pray, for what we ought, that is the matter of our prayers; and as we ought, that is the manner, to wit, the temper of our hearts. For, that words are not meant, appears from what follows, and maketh intercession for us with groannings that cannot be uttered: or literally, which cannot be worded.

N.

But though the renewing of words were a lower way of devotion; yet, we in this inbodied state, need to have our souls stirred up by the commotion of our fancies.

C.

Then at least, this must convince you, that such a way of praying, is not so sublime, and therefore ought not to be called praying by the Spirit. And you must acknowledge, such as can worship God devoutly in a set Form, to be of a higher size: as being above these gratifications of nature and fancy. I will next convince you of the evil of extemporary forms. In such then, I must long exercise my attention to consider what he who prayes, intends; that I may judge, whether I can joyn with him or not: Now this strangely draweth out the minde from devotion: for, two [Page] powers of the Soul cannot be vigourously acted at one time. The attention therefore must put great stops to the progresse of the devotion: and the mind being so prone to wander in Worship; this opens a wide door to it. But he who knoweth already what the prayer is, runs along in his devotion, without anxiety, or wavering. Hence I have heard devout men say, they were ever much troubled, while they joyned in extemporary Worship, to keep their minde from distraction; which they found wholly remedied, when they were where God was worshipped in set Forms.

N.

What sort of devout men could these be? sure they knew not what devotion meant.

C.

This is like all weak people, to censure what is above them, and they do not understand. But judge whether it be fit, I blindly join with one in the worship of God, when I know not how he is to mannage it: and you cannot deny, some may pray things you dare not join in. Shall I not trust a man in any matter, without understanding how he will discharge it? only in my devotions to God I will blindly trust so great a concernment, to one who saith he doth not know how he will mannage it himself. It is not enough to say, you join not in these things to which you cannot say Amen; for, at least to others you seem so to do. And this will keep you still in some anxiety, when in your heart you may say Amen, and when not: and indeed this way of praying, was the best could have been devised, [Page] for spreading of errour, or sedition: for Ministers prayed over their Sermons; so that what in the discouse seemed the words of man, in the prayer was called the dictate of the Spirit. And this was an excellent device, to make all go down, had it been of the worst stuff.

N.

All things may be abused, but by your own rule, this should not strike against their use.

C.

Things of themselves good, falling into abuse, ought not for that to be taken away; except the abuse be greater than the goodness of the thing: but, if a thing, not of it self good, be grossly abused, then there is ground to change the use of it. Now, since we speak of abuses, I might run out in a long career, and tell of the redious length, the scurrilous expressions, the involved periods, the petulant and wanton affectations, and other great abuses in extemporary prayer: with which, no doubt, you your self hath been often much troubled; but I bear that tender respect to every thing that hath any relation to God's service, that I love not so to scoff at any thing looks that way: But you know these are sad truths. Whether then, Is it not necessary to redress these abuses by a regular form?

N.

You know we had a Directory of the things we should pray for.

C.

And why may not you have a Directory for words, as well as things? since the Spirit rather helps in things than in words. But it was clear you brought up that Directory meerly to cozen the world; which otherwise might have been [Page] startled, to have seen you without all form, or rule for Worship: for, even your Leaders quickly wearied of it, and regarded it not. And one thing clearly followed, that the Preaching was the great matter of the Worship: all the Prayers and Psalms relating to it. But the constant acts, wherein the Church should adore God, were thought too homely. To conclude, the least evil of extemporary forms, is, that a Minister is ready to pour out his soul to God, in such devotions as are then most in his own spirit: Suppose he be mourning for sin, under affliction, rejoicing in God, or the like; he is apt to pray in these strains. But these being his private exercises, are not fit for publick Worship, which, as it ought to be grave and solemn; so, it should be general and comprehensive.

N.

I see you are for set-forms: but what reason have you for them? Sure the Apostles used them not.

C.

You are not so sure as you imagine, for I cannot doubt but they used our Saviours Prayer, he taught them; for whereas, at first, in his Sermon on the Mount, he had given it as a pattern of Prayer, they afterwards, as is clear by the series of the Gospel, came and asked a form of him, as St. Iohn had given his Disciples: and then he doth not say, as he formerly said, After this manner pray, but when you pray, which clearly sheweth, he intended it as a practice, as well as a pattern. Nay further, the Jews at that time had a Liturgy, and their hours of Prayer, [Page] which our Saviour never reproves, as a formal thing: but, on the contrary, he takes his Prayer, word for word, out of it, as may be seen, if you will read their Liturgy. And this shews how foolish that exception against the Liturgy of England is, that some of its prayers are translated out of the Roman Missall or Breviary. But though the Apostles and persons immediatly inspired, might pour out extemporary prayers, thence it will not follow, that every one may assume the same liberty. Beside, you see by the Worship of the Corinthians, they used Hymnes of their composing, as well as Prayers: Now I could never comprehend why you will allow the Spirit to be restrained in praising, as to words, and not in praying, since both are duties equally spiritual; nay, perhaps praising, is the most sublime of the two.

N.

Because the Plalms are a collection of praises dictated by the Spirit of God for Worship.

C.

This is all you can say upon the matter, but never were more absurdities crouded in less bounds. And first, it is clear, we may worship in the Spirit, and yet be restrained as to words; since you acknowledge God hath done it in praising. Next, the Psalms are full of acts that are prayers, as well as thanksgivings; why may we not use these for constant prayers, as well as the other for constant praises? Nay, since we use to sing these prayers, why may we not for instance use the 51. Psalm, in plain words, with a plain [Page] voice, as prayer, as well as in hobling ryme, with a Tune? Sure you will find no difference in this, since you cannot say we are bound to use the Psalms in Meeter, or with Tunes: for nothing proves we ought to use them with vocal Tunes, but will conclude as strongly for all Davids Instruments. Besides, who told you that all David's Psalms were to be constantly used in Worship? It is clear, most of them was not intended for constant use: they relating to particulars of David's History and Victories, which belongs not to us. And it is hard to say, we ought to sing his imprecatory Psalms: As also, many things are in the Psalms which we cannot sing, because we do not understand them: And it is clear, we ought to praise God with our understandings; and not above twenty of the Psalms were used by the Jews in Worship. To conclude, why may not the Christian Church compose new Hymns, as they of Corinth did? for which they are approven by St. Paul. And this is the more necessary, because from David's Psalms, we are not furnished with such full and clear Hymns, upon the great Mysteries of the Christian Belief, as were needful. And what kind of reasons can you have, who plead so much for a liberty in Prayer, and yet allow none in making of Hymns? Why then do not ye use the Glory to the Father?

N.

Because it is not in the Scripture, and is but a device of men.

C.

Who would not be sick with such pitiful folly? Show me a reason why you may make prayers, [Page] and not praises? Beside, are not your Meeter Psalms a device of men? And they recede from the Text, as I can trace it in an hundred places, as much as the Doxology doth from Scripture words. And you understand Musick little, if you do not know that the Psalms in Prose may be sung as well, and as Musically, as they can be in Ryme. Besides, since the Mystery of the S.S. Trinity, is not so clearly in the Old Testament, nor in any Psalm, why may not the Church use an acknowledgement of it, in the end of their singing, as well as in the end of prayer, is ordinarily said, To the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, be glory for ever and ever? Such childish weakness makes me sometimes doubt whether your rational faculties be not troubled: since what difference can you pretend betwixt singing and saying? But I will return to Prayer. Consider next, how Hosea the Prophet prescribes a form, when he saith, take with you words, and say, &c. Our Saviour also prayed thrice, and though the third time was more fervently, yet it was in the same words: which shows, that fervour consisteth not in a varying of the phrase Next, it is clear, that in the Church they used forms very early; since in the Council of Laodicea, it was decreed, that the same Liturgy of Prayer should be used morning and evening. It [...] is true, there was not an universal Liturgy then agreed to, but Bishops had their several Liturgies: So we have the Liturgies of St. Basile ▪ St. Chrysostome, and St. Ambrose; not to mention [Page] those of St. Iames, and St. Mark. But never were extemporary heats used in the Church: and all the Reformed Churches have their Liturgies; so we had ours at our first Reformation.

N.

But we are a purer Church than any of them: and therefore we are not to learn of them.

C.

I know you were made believe, that all the world were wondring at you, but this was a cheat upon you, like that of your alledged Prophetess; for, I can assure you, there was no such thing true. One thing is strangely inconsequential amongst you, you will not pray in a Liturgy, and yet you alwayes bless the people in a set form. Do you think prayer for a blessing, is not a prayer? Or do you think, the spirit is not stinted when the form is short, but only when it is long? Sure these things shew you are not governed by reason.

N.

What then conclude you from all this; is it that the English Liturgy be brought in?

C.

It is, that you consider better how you ought to worship God. As for the English Liturgy, I do not say any thing is absolutely perfect, but God; yet till I see a better Liturgy compiled, which I never hitherto did, pardon me to think it an excellent rule for Worship, although your deep, but groundless prejudices against it, have rendred you so uncapable of receiving good by it, that such is your Soveraign's Princely tenderness, and your Superiours discreet [Page] prudence, that they do not obtrude on you while you are but babes this stronger food, but are willing to let you be doing with your milk.

N.

This is easie way for men to read their Prayers off their Books; God keep us long from it.

C.

Truly, if by easiness, you mean what is pleasant to a man, it is far from it; for certainly the natural man would be much better pleased, to be running out with his own conceptions, and to have all the Worship depending upon his lips this is indeed to be Rabbi. But to use the form of the Church is a more simple, and a more humble way of Worship.

N.

I begin to think you can have no piety, who are so in love with that dead and dull Worship.

C.

Would to God you and I had more of it than we have: but it is perhaps your stupidity, that makes you dead and dull in it. And I know godly people, who protest, they never in their lives worshipped God with more pure and simple devotion, than when they joined in the English Liturgy-worship: therefore in such matters speak more modestly.

N.

But what vain repetitions are in the Liturgy? how often redouble they, Lord have mercy upon us?

C.

I have not yet asserted, that it is in all things perfect; but truly, I can think that no fault, except you will also quarrel with the Psalms, particularly with the 136. in which is repeated 26. times, for his mercy endureth for ever, it being [Page] in every verse. But in the true sense of vain repetitions, I fear there is ground to say, many of [...]our prayers may be censured for them.

N.

But what a confusion is it, that all say some of the prayers together, and use Amen?

C.

It seems you have read the Scripture well, else you would have found, Acts 4. how a whole company there, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, &c. And St. Paul plainly intimates that there was a custome of saying Amen, at the giving of thanks. Why then do you not in this follow the express Scripture-rule? And what imaginable ground is there that the people shall all with their voice join in the Psalms, and not also in the Prayers?

N.

Well, I see you are zealous for that Service-book, but should you speak till to morrow, you should never perswade me to join in it: but are you as keen for the Ceremonies?

C.

I verily believe, your prejudice against it, though ill grounded, yet is so deep, that no reason will overthrow it: but perhaps, if you saw that worship gravely managed, you should be more reconciled to it. As for the Ceremonies, I will medle with none, but such as were commanded here, well known by the name of the five Articles of Perth. And for these, if you can hear [...]nd understand reason, I doubt not to convince [...]ou, they were both lawful, and most of them [...]oth useful and necessary. I begin with confirmation.

[Page]N.

Well, is not this a Popish Sacrament which you would bring into the Church?

C.

I confess, if it had been introduced as a Sacrament, you had reason to except against it but you know no such thing was ascribed to it, and it was only designed for a solemn renovation of the Baptismal Vow. Now since Children are baptized, and so in Baptism do not ingage fo [...] themselves; can any thing be more rational, than that when they come to the years of discretion, they do it themselves? And this Rite wa [...] very ancient in the Church, and with great show of reason, the laying on of hands mentioned wit [...] Baptisms, Heb. 6. was expounded of it: and yo [...] know most Reformers were for it.

N.

But why must it be done only by a Bishop▪ as if it were beyond Baptism?

C.

That was only to conciliat the more veneration for it, by making it the more solemn and therefore it hath been generally appropriated to the Bishop. Yet I shall not contend about that, since St. Ambrose, or rather Hilary saith that in Egypt, the Presbyters in the Bishop's absence did confirm. And St. Ierom saith, that [...] Bishop did nothing, except the Ordination, whic [...] a Presbyter did not likewise. The next Articl [...] was private Baptism.

N.

This was another piece of Popery, to mak [...] the Sacraments necessary to Salvation.

C.

It is rather gross Superstition, to confir [...] the Sacramental actions to the walls of a Church for it is the assembly of the faithful that makes [...] [Page] Church. Our Saviour said, Where two or three are gathered together in my Name, I will be in the midst of them. As for the necessity of the Sacraments, none calls them simply necessary to Salvation; but since they were commanded, they ought to be used, unless some more cogent reason stop the use of them, than is the want of a dedicated House. And who should expect, that they who are so much against reverence to Sacred Houses, should likewise be against private Sacraments? As for Baptism, what a cruel thing is it, to oblidge Children; especially when they are tender, to be brought, perhaps in the coldest season, many miles, rather than go and Baptize at their Houses? this looks liker Heathenish barbarity, than the Christian tenderness. And for Communion, why should not sick persons receive on death-bed, when all the reasons of receiving are most strong? Their faith and love needs then to be most quickened; Never is the death of Christ more to be remembred, than when they are to pass through the valley and shadow of death; and never is it more fit, that they declare their Communion with the Church, and their love to the Brethren, than when they are entering upon their last pangs: And it is well known how early a practice this was in the Church of God. Iustin Martyr tells, that they sent of the Eucharist to them that were absent: and by the famous Story of Serapion, about the 200. year, it is apparent how necessary the Christians then thought it was to be guarded with this holy [Page] Viaticum. Private Sacraments then are not proposed as necessary, but as highly expedient: which I think I have made appear they are.

N.

But what can you say for kneeling in receiving? sure this looks like Superstition and Idolatry.

C.

I confess this is the Article of them all, I have the least fondness on: but it is great uncharitableness to call it Idolatry, when such as do so, declare they neither believe Christ to be corporally present, nor do they intend any Worship to the Bread and Wine, but direct their worship to God and Christ, for that death which is therein shewed forth.

N.

But why do not you sit? since our Saviour did institute this rite in the Table-gesture?

C.

Since you do not exactly follow Christ, you ought not to stand at this: none therefore should alledge this, but such as Communicat leaning, and after supper, and in an upper Room. And though the Passover was ordained to be eaten by the Jews standing with their loins girt, and their shooes on their feet, yet without any written warrand, they changed that posture into the ordinary eating posture, and did eat the Passover leaning, in which our Saviour conformed to them. And if the Jews, against an expresse [...] precept, without any countermand, may chang [...] the posture; sure the Christians who are lesse restrained as to outwards, may change the gesture [...] especially there being no command for it: and but a lame example, since our Saviour did not [Page] sit, but lean. And perhaps more veneration is due to that action, now that our Saviour is exalted, than he could have allowed of in his humiliation.

N.

What can you say for holy dayes? can any man make dayes holy?

C.

If by holy dayes you mean, portions of time so sacred, that in these dayes, our services are more acceptable to God than on other dayes; or that of their own nature they are holy, so that of it self it is a sin not to be particularly devout on these dayes, you have reason to say, none can make a day holy. And this was never asserted. But it is another thing to keep peculiar dayes of thanksgiving, for the great and signal mercies of the Gospel-dispensation. I confesse I am so dull, as not to be able to apprehend what evil can be in such customs. And it is undoubted, that in all ages and places of the Church, Christians have had a peculiar veneration for these Dayes. St. Paul saith of the legall holy Dayes, he that regardeth a day, to the Lord he doth regard it; And, if Moses his Feasts might have been kept holy to the Lord, much more may these be which the Church hath instituted. Beside, you know the observation of Easter and Pentecost, are according to clear History derived from Apostolical practices. And it appears, St. Paul hasted to be at Ierusalem to keep the feast of Pentecost there. And, from all this I may assume, that your dislike of these Festivals and the other Articles of Perth, is ill grounded.

DIALOGUE VI.

[Page]

N.

I See we have no reason to hope for any good from you, who are so fierce against u [...] ▪ [...]u [...] God be thanked, an ill-willed Cow hath fro [...] [...]orns.

C.

If by fiercenesse you mean a desire to see you [...]uined and destroyed, you mistake me quite; since there is none living, mo [...] a verse from fierce and violent [...]ourses than my self. I love all Christians, who live according to the rules of the Gospel▪ And I pity such as I judge mistaken, knowing how subject I am to errour my self. I quarrel with no man for his opinion in these matters▪ which are, as the [...] incomp [...]rable King in his divine work call [...] them, But the Ski [...] and Suburbs of Religion. And as all the thoughts of that divine Book bew [...]ay an augustnesse, which spe [...]ks the Author a King indeed▪ so his mode [...]a [...]ion in these matters looks like the paternal clemency which becomes the Father of a Countrey; he then adviseth his Son, our Gracious Sovereign, thus, Beware of exasperating any Factio [...]s, by the crossnesse and asperity of some men [...] passions, humours, or private opinions, imployed by you, grounded only upon the differences in lesse [...] matters, which are but the Ski [...]s and Suburb [...] of Religion: wherein a charitable connivance [...] and Christian- [...]oller [...]tion often dissipa [...] their strength, wh [...] [...]ougher opposition fortifies; and[Page]puts the despised and oppressed party into such combinations, as may most enable them to get a full revenge on those they count their persecutors, who are commonly assisted by that Vulgar commiseration which attends all that are said to suffer under the notion of Religion. And a little after, Take heed, that outward circumstances and formalities of Religion, devour not all, or the best incouragements of Learning, Industry, and Piety. Thus that Great and glorious Prince.

N.

By this it seems you are a Latitudinarian, and I have heard much ill of these new sort of people.

C.

Truly I own no name, but that of Jesus Christ, in which I was baptized; and these are invidious Arts, to coyn names of parties, and to affix them on such as disown them; I am, and desire to be a sincere Christian, but of no party nor Sect. But if by latitude, you mean charity, truly I must tell you, I glory in it, which is no newer way, than the new commandment which our Saviour gave to his Disciples, to love one another, as he loved them.

N.

I confesse they say you live very good lives, but you have dangerous and loose principles.

C.

Are you not strange people, who fasten such Characters on men whose conversations you cannot disprove; for, what can you call an Atheist, but a man of dangerous and loose principles? these are uncharitable aspersions, as if not to be so hidebound and starcht on every trifle as you [Page] are, were to be loose and dangerous men.

N.

Some say you are strong witted people, and so they suspect you of Atheism.

C.

It seems they are weak witted people who talk so; since though some foolish pretenders to wit, are Atheists, yet no sort of men discover their folly, as well as wickednesse, so much as these do. And that cursed Pest is hated by none more than us, who perhaps can give better and more convincing accounts of these principles of Religion, that there is a God, a life to come, and that the Scriptures are the word of God, than these who so charge us. But what unchristian work is it, thus to disgrace us?

N.

Many of you are suspect of Socinianism, for you all magnifie reason, and are often telling how rational a thing Christian Religion is, which they also do.

C.

Indeed if to call Religion a rational worship, or reasonable service make a Socinian, w [...] are such, and so was St. Paul: but as for the horrid errours of Socinus his School, touching th [...] Trinity, Christs satisfaction, Gods prescience, & [...] ▪ these we condemn and Anathematize: and w [...] judge it most suitable to reason, that in these sublime Mysteries, Divine Revelations should b [...] our rule. But notwithstanding of this, we wi [...] be very loath to deny that Christian Religio [...] both in its Articles of Belief, and Precepts [...] Practice, is highly congruous to the dictates [...] right reason: And we judge to propose them s [...] shall be a convincing way to commend them [Page] all clear-witted men. And certainly, God having created man rational, the highest accomplishment of his nature, which is Religion, must not be contrary, but suitable to his supreme faculty.

N.

It seems you are sound here, but I fear you Latitudinarians are Papists, at least Cassandrians.

C.

You are resolved to charge us with one heinous thing or another, and when one fails you, you catch hold on another. We are far from that height of uncharitablenesse which some of you own, of damning all Papists; since they hold the foundation Jesus Christ, though they build upon it wood, hay and stubble: neither will we stifly say, that all things controverted betwixt the reformed Churches and them, are matters of Salvation; yet in the greater controversies with them, we condemn them: such as are the Popes supremacy, the Churches infallibility, the Corporal presence, the worshipping Images, Saints, Angels, Purgatory, prayer for the Dead, withholding the Chalice, worshipping in an unknown tongue; these with many moe we disprove and dislike as much, and perhaps on clearer grounds than you do. Yet we are such lovers of the unity of the Catholick Church, that we much honour and esteem all who have studied to bring things to a temper, though they have not come up to the desired length.

N.

But how comes it, that amongst all the Articles of Popery, you never reckon the merits [Page] of good works, nor Justification by them; since these are their chiefest errours?

C.

I have not given a full enumeration of all that is wrong in that Church; but, for good works, though many of them, particularly the J [...]suits, have written very harshly in that matters; and before the Reformation, generally all the Preachers did intollerably extol, not so much morally good works, as the superstitious and tyrannical injunctions of the Stepdame of Rome; yet now it is clear, the more sober of them expound Merits, in a sense which no Protestant can disown, to wit, that they are actions so acceptable to God, that he who is faithfull in his promises, will certainly reward them. Though I have no fondnesse on the term Merit, which way soever expounded, it still sounds somewhat too high for a creature in reference to his Creator, much more heartily do I reject the term Condign.

N.

What [...]ay you of Justification by faith only? sure this is a fundamental matter.

C.

There is nothing in Scripture more clearly set down than the Doctrine of Justification; but as it is generally explained, there is nothing more nice or subtill: Justification and condemnation are two opposite legal terms, relating to the Judgment shall be given out at the last day; for though we are said to be now justified, as the unbelieving are said to be condemned already, this is only that we are now in the state of such as shall be solemnly justified or condemned. Now [Page] at [...]he great Day we must give [...] [...]ount of our actions, and we must be judged accordingly▪ but since all must be condemned, if God enter in Judgement with them, therefore God gave his Son to the death for us, that thereby we might obtain▪ Salvation; and all Iudgement is by the [...] ther committed to the Son: And Jesus Christ hath proposed [...]ife through his death to as many [...] receive his Gospel, and live according▪ [...]o it. And as that which gives us [...]title to the [...] vour of God, is the blood of Christ, so that which gives us an interest in his death, is faith, with [...] life conform to the rules of his Gospel, and the [...]oo [...] of this new life, is a fai [...]h, which worke [...]h by love, purifyeth the heart, and! overcom [...] the World; and therefore Justification is ascribed [...]o [...] it in Scripture. Now, judge but a little what [...] is to have a righ [...] apprehension of things▪ si [...]e [...] have in a few plain words told you [...]hat which with much nice [...]y swells amongst you to Volume [...] ▪ And as this ascribes all to Christ, through [...] whom it is that our sins are pardoned, our services [...] cepted, and grace and glory conveyed to us [...] ▪ so also the necessity of a holy life is clearly declared▪ as being that whereupon we shall be solemnity judged, justified and absolved at the last day.

N.

I think this is very clear, but why do not you use the terms of the Protestant [...] Church? this looks like a humour of singularity amongst you, that you will not speak like other men.

C.

Whether do you think it fitter in the Mysteries of [...]aith to keep close to [...]rms of Scripture [Page] or not? since these, as they are the truest, so are the fittest and most expressive: but if we will speak in the language of men, I think the stile of the Catholick Church is to be chosen, rather than Modern and Scholastical expressions, which are too too horridly abused, as well by Antinomians, as by carnal Christians, who love well to hear of Salvation by the death of Christ, provided they be bound to do nothing themselves, that they may be saved.

N.

You have sufficiently vindicated your self of Popery, but are you not Arminians?

C.

Truly I believe both you and I may be good Christians, and not understand a word of these controversies. And certainly the great itch of multiplying and canvassing subtile questions in matters of Religion, hath proven one of the chief pests of the Church; it is good to be sober-minded. As for Gods Soveraignty in all things, but more especially in the conversion of souls, and the gracious influence of his Spirit, I do firmly believe it: I as firmly believe, that God is infinitly good and holy, and think I may well take his own Oath for it, that he takes no pleasure in the death of sinners: But how to reconcile these his Attributes, I confesse is beyond my capacity. God is an unfathomable Abysse, and imperscrutable to any but himself: therefore as I do not doubt there are Three persons in one God, though I cannot reconcile that to Aristotles Logick; so I believe, God is Soveraign and absolute, as well as holy and just, [Page] though I cannot answer all objections. In a word, let this whole matter be thus transacted, and no article of faith is violated; Let none of our good be ascribed to our selves, and none of our evil be imputed to God.

N.

I see if you have any errours, you have so much Legerdemain, that you are not easily discovered. But, our Ministers are more jealous of some of this new way of the latitude, than of any body; for, often in our Conventicles they bid us beware of Wolves in sheeps cloathing: and this is meant of you.

C.

Iudge of the tree by its fruits, said our Saviour; Do not therefore upon jealousies and misrepresentations passe judgments; for, who art thou that judgest another mans servant? But I am now weary with wrangling, it being a thing much against my Genius; I will therefore leave these dry and arid matters, and talk a little with you on better Subjects.

N.

I will hear you in these with all my heart; for though you have said many things that do much displease me, yet as uncharitable as you think me, I am full of kindness for you; and I love to hear good spoken by any body: therefore we will dispute no more.

C.

Ah, how strangely is the world mistaken in matters of Religion! Some placing it wholly in debates, others in external forms; others in some private devotions, and others in a regulation of the outward man; but true Religion is power and life, and far above all these shadows. The Kingdom[Page]of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness and peace, and joy in the holy Ghost; it doth not level at externals only, but secretly insinuats it self into the Soul; whereas a divine seed it propagates, diffusing its vertue through the whole man: In a word, Religion was given of God to transform a man into the Divine likeness, and to a real participation of the Divine Nature.

N.

What then is the great scope and design of Christian Religion?

C.

God's method in clearing up this day of Salvation was indeed wonderful: many ages after the Creation, the world was overspread with darkness, and wrapped up in blind Idolatry, only as the [...] reflection of the Moon, with the twinklings of a few Stars, do give some radiance in the furthest absence of the Sun, so these darkest ages had still some of the remains of Natures light; and the holy Patriarchs were burning and [...]hi [...]ing lights: but darkness still covered the face of the earth. At length there was a dawning [...]p [...]ed by Moses, whose greatest splendor was c [...]ast upon it, by the approaching Sun, the Messia [...]s: Indeed the old dispensation was a great [...]idd [...] for all was managed then with great [...]errour, po [...]p and state: their call out of Egypt, and the pro [...]ulging of the Law were dreadfu [...], their Temple, Worship and Ceremonies were Majesti [...]k and Solemn; but by none of these the doer could be made perfect: At length came the Sun of Righteousness, as a light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of his people Israel, and [Page]brought to light life and mortality through his Gospel; the great designs whereof are, to beget in a man such apprehensions of the Divine Majesty as might both possess him with the holy reveren [...] becomes his great Name, and inspire him with a love and delight in him, that so man might be brought to a more free converse with God, and might be swallowed up in divine contemplations. The next thing in the Gospel, is to propose to us that stupendious contrivance of the redemption of the World through Jesus Christ, that we may adore him as the author and finisher of our faith. Beside, the Gospel came to mould us into such a lively conformity to Jesus Christ, that we may imitate him in all things, chiefly in his holiness, meekness, and humility: And further, the Gospel was designed as a cement and bond of perfection, to unite us all more clossly, even beyond the natural tyes, with those of brotherly-kindness and charity.

N.

What then are the methods to be used by one that would lead a spiritual life?

C.

This ought to be the great design of our lives; for, wherein shall it avail us, if we shall gain the whole world, and lose our own souls? The way then to purify our souls, is, not barely to affect a little vertue, or morality, but to apply our minds to God, that by frequent and deep contemplations of his glory, his excellent perfections may be derived into our souls. Be therefore much in stillness and abstraction of mind, that you may become of a thinking temper: give up [Page] with passions, designs, and humours, and use much inward recollection; this at first will prove [...]inful to you, but when once you have brought your mind into a serene and not easily agitated temper, you shall after that enjoy great quiet in divine converse.

N.

What mean you by this converse with God?

C.

You shall feel such a belief and sense of the divine perfections in your soul, as shall make the thoughts of God familiar and easie to you: your converse with him shall not only consist in prayers, and acts of worship, but you shall be often admiring him in his Attributes of Power, Wisdom, and Goodness, and chiefly his Love to you in Christ; which sense of God shall be as a fountain of living waters, ever jetting up divine thoughts into your mind: And these will not be crabbed, curious, or subtill speculations, but humble adorations, and divine imbraces, in such acts, as, Thou art my God, my good God, I am thine, I will love thee above all things, and none but thee; thou art my joy and only delight. Thus the more you converse with God, your acts will grow the simpler and the purer: it will not only be at some returns, morning or evening, or in publick Worship, that such thoughts will stir in you; but your heart will be full of them, and swiming in them, and they will rise natively in you. Hence will gush in upon your soul much inward sweetness of mind; you will be ever well pleased, because you will see God in all things, and you will [Page] see all he doth is good; you will therefore not only practise submission, but complacency and delight in all his wayes; you will also rejoyce in the Divine Attributes, and glory in your interest in Heaven. Oh, how sweet will your hours then grow to you! But debates and opinions and every thing that leads out the mind from that inward stillness, will become sapless to you.

N.

Wherein consists that sweetness you say is to be found in divine converse?

C.

In the stillness wherewith the mind is overflowed, the clearness in the judgement, the stedfastness of the will, and calmness of the passions; and then indeed a man lives in the perfection of his nature. But, beside these, there are some divine touches, wherein the soul is carried, as it were, out of her self, into most sublime heights, which cannot be uttered. But as for the affections of the sensible part, these may be very high in an impure mind; for the natural devotion, especially if the person be Melancholick, a woman, or histerical, will mount very high, but this devotion doth not humble nor purify the minde. Now, persons so divinly acted, are nothing in their own eyes, and willing to be nothing in the account of all the world, and all the world is nothing to them, their God is their all: they resign all to him, and are willing he dispose of them, and every thing else, as seems good in his eyes; so they are not sollicitous, nor disturbed, however squares go in the world. Finally, by the Elevation of this spiritual life, they are made to [Page] think not only placidly and serenly of death, but to long for it, accounting that the worst office death can do them, is to free them of a vile body, and to give them enterance into their heavenly Kingdom, this is the union of the Soul to God.

N.

But how must we enter into that state of divine union?

C.

Truly the gate is low, and the passage strait, we must be dispossessed of self-love, and of all intense affections to created objects; we must [...]now and abhor our bygone escapes, we must by the humble applications of our souls to Jesus Christ, presse in by violence into this heavenly state▪ to which the passage is so narrow, that we must be stript of all the bulksome farthingales and trains of vanity ere we can enter: but when we shall be divested of these, the path of life will prove easie. Oh! how shall these pangs be recompensed, when we have broke thorow, and got into the blessed shades of the Garden of God? And, how infinitely more shall they be swallowed up, when getting beyond the dark regions of Mortality, we shall arrive at the uncreated light, which without a cloud or vail, shines above? Then our glorified bodies, with our no lesse purified Souls, being made like unto Angels, yea, unto a greater than Angels, shall be incessantly imployed in exercises, services and adorations, so far elevated beyond, and disproportioned to our highest a [...] chievements and enjoyments here, that in this imperfect state we cannot so much as frame suitable [Page] apprehensions of that unconceived Glory! Now we who have the possession of so great a joy, and the hope of a greater blesse [...]nesse proposed to us, have we not all reason vigorously to set about the duties of a Christian life, not intangling our selves with thorny and harsh debates, which will but retard our progresse to sublimer states, and higher and undisturbed Regions?

N.

Is this all then that is required to accomplish a Christian?

C.

This is but the Basis and roo [...] of a Christian life, which is never barren nor unfruitfull: he then whose heart is thus fixed on God, his life and actions quickly declare that he hath not only the form but the power of Godlinesse in him: he lives above the world, in such a contempt of it, as discovers he hath greater riches and treasures in his design, than these a [...]e; he hates the base and impure pollutions that abound in the world through lust, and underva [...]eth even the lawfull pleasures and enjoyments off sense: he sets no value on things in themselves, riches and poverty, shame and contemp [...]a [...]e equally welcome to him, the one doth not sink him, nor can the other swell him: his actions and discourses have that candor, ingenuity and goodness in them, as convince all, that the fear of God is before his eyes. Finally, he li [...]es in the world, as out of the world, and above the world▪ His humility also testifieth, that in no [...]hing the doth, he seeks or regards himself; he doth not [Page] hang out his piety nor good actions to publick view, but wraps them up in unaffected self-denial. He courts not applause, nor is he fretted with contempt, but is willing that none but God, for whom he doth all, know his actions, and with a virginal modesty shuns and rejects the praises which are undesired, as well as undeserved: he flyes the crouds and publick scenes, that in corners he may find that which by venting in a throng, is often evaporat and lost. And as he doth not cowardly stoop to mean things, so he doth not stubbornly refuse the poorest office God calls him to: he peaceably obeyeth the publick Father of his Countrey, and the Ghostly Fathers of his Soul: he undervalueth none but himself, neither are his ears pained with applauses given to others, nor itching for them to himself. His charity also appeareth in his readiness to do good to all men, looking on that as one of the greatest conformities to the Divine Nature: He relieveth the poor with his Goods, the perplexed with his Advice, the oppressed with his Assistance, the disconsolat with his Sympathy; and all with his Prayers. He judgeth rashly of none, he doth not easily believe, but quickly pardoneth an injury: he is not soon irritated, but readily pacified: he confineth not his charity to a party, but extendeth it to all Christians. This is a rude Character, containing some of the fairer Lines of a Christian-life; by which you may see wherein Christian Religion [Page] consists, and how far even those who pretend most loudly to it, recede from it.

N.

What say you of his Devotions, both private and publick?

C.

In his secret retirements he often revieweth and examineth his actions, that discovering what hath been defective and amiss in him, he may be humbled for it, and quickened to new vigour and alacrity in Divine Services: he begs the divine love through Jesus Christ, by whom he makes all his addresses to the Throne of Grace; he offers up himself to God by pure and free resignations, that he may dispose of him as pleaseth him; he imploreth the Divine Grace, and assistance for mortifying all sins, overcoming all temptations, and advancing in every thing that is acceptable and well-pleasing to God: he also offers up his praises to God for all his mercies, chiefly for that unvaluable one of the Redemption of the world through Jesus Christ: he prayeth also for the Catholick Church, his King, Countrey, and Friends. This he performs not as an homage or vassalage which he must do, but out of pure delight in God and Divine exercises: neither doth he rest on these, as all he owes God; but besides, he orders all he doth for his Glory, and is often bending his minde to an application to God in all his wayes: And this is his secret and inward devotion. He worships God in publick, that he may avowedly own his dependance on him, and his union [Page] with his Church: he goeth to the holy place, not out of custome or formality, but that he may jointly with others, acknowledge and adore his Maker and his Redeemer; and gives no [...] only an external concurrence with the Worship in Voice, Gesture, or Presence, but his hear [...] saith Amen to his lips and profession.

N.

I confesse I finde it much more pleasing and edifying to talk on these heads, than on ou [...] doubtful disputations; and therefore I will bi [...] an endlesse farewell to them.

C.

I was to have desired that of you: fo [...] though my affection to you hath at presen [...] drawn from me a great deal of contentious discourse; yet I finde no pleasure in it; and therefore as I seldom in my thoughts remind [...] these matters, so here I put a point, and wil [...] never resume them again. Let us therefore provoke one another to Charity and good Works [...] We have a better exercise for our tongues, wit [...] them we are to blesse God even the Father; le [...] us not therefore utter any thing with them that may seem to curse man, that was made after the similitude of God.

N.

Yet your pains are not wholly lost: fo [...] though I am not altogether changed as to [...] Principles; yet you have brought me to a grea [...] temper in things wherein I must confesse I wa [...] unmeasuredly furious: but I will henceforth study to draw in my minde from every distraction, and more vigorously pursue the great en [...] of my Being.

[Page]C.

If this be your temper, you and I cannot disagree, did our thoughts, as to other things, differ never so widly: And I pray God keep you and me both in this temper long, but now we must part for a while, it is like we may shortly meet again, if not on earth, at least in heaven: So I bid you heartily adiew.

POSTSCRIPT.

THese Dialogues were the hasty product of some idle hours, wherein the Author thought fit to gather in a few words, the matters which now creat us so much trouble, and to represent the Arguments of both parties candidly; which he hopes he hath done. He protests he hath no design to wrong either party or person, [Page] but meerly to propose these matters to others, in the same light wherein they appear to himself: had his design been to disgrace persons or wayes, he would have done it at another rate; but he abhorreth such a thought. If these papers grow publick, and be of use to any, he desires no thanks as he expects no rewards: and for the Censures of persons concerned, he will shroud himself from these with the vail of one unconcerned.

FINIS.

A PINDARICK ODE Upon Contentions in matters of Religion, by a friend of the Authors, and a zealous promoter of all designs for Peace and Love.

[Page]

I.

SHall that which was design'd to end our toils,

Increase our flames, and raise new broils;

And must we triumph in our Brethrens spoils?

Women are said by contraries to walk,

So now Religion which Heaven intends

To quiet minds, all hearts to quarrel bends;

And to contentious talk.

And as the feuds of Brethren hottest are,

(Where concords ought to be, there harshest proves the jarr)

So Nations Christned into unity,

And twisted in fraternal tyes,

Yet do these Sacred bonds despise:

And the endearing names of Brethren all bely.

II.

Great were disorders which at Babel sprang,

Each did his Mothers Tongue forget;

Brother to Brother spake a stranger Dialect,

[Page]And new coin'd words only the ear did wound.

In vain it was to speak, and all grew mutes,

And man seem'd to descend to rank of bruits.

The Gospel came to heal this breach,

And Canaans hallowed stile mankind did teach:

At first all seem'd made of a piece;

One heart and soul them did inspire,

Free was the peaceful company from warlike ire,

When charity was all their fire.

The Heavenly dew still moistened the fleece.

While they sought only how to propagate their kind,

'Midst all their Hymns no discord could one find.

But when the wretched Arts of Humane Policy,

Mingled with primitive integrity,

They by unhallowed tools began to build

Their fabriques, and by Laws of State

Religion did adulterate.

Then did incensed Heavens 'gainst them rage,

And put an early period to the golden age:

All in disorder ravel'd out,

The Church grew a tumultuous rout.

And all with cloven Tongues did speak:

Fierce wrath prevail'd, and Gospel force grew weak▪

And all its harmony died in a groan:

Oh strange! even Paradise becomes a to [...]ride Zone.

III.

Iesus blest names were not their only stiles,

They left his Standart, and were rang'd in files,

Vnder the Banners of dividing names,

And quench't in angry heats were divine flames,

Some quarel'd only about doubtful words,

But to decide the matter, used swords:

Others 'bout Logick niceties did contend,

[Page]Yet such poor stuff put to their love an end:

And while some plea'd the practice of small forms,

Did their unformal pleas occasion storms.

Wondrous Metamorphose!

St. James counts lust the source of Warre,

But now Religion proves the cause of jarre.

Inverted Chymistry!

Which turns the Gold to base allay.

Must Rome be damn'd as Antichrist,

Because it to unerring Chair pretends;

And forth as Oracles its dictates sends?

While each 'mong us to that height raise their creast,

And do expect that all to them submit,

Conceiting that to errour proof's their wit.

But once a Woman did usurp that Chair,

That stain wipe off could never any care:

Yet now 'gainst us that Sex conspires,

And to our Crown with insolence aspires.

Each Dame a Sybill grows, and doth refuse

To stoop to wisest sort, and our just yoke abuse.

The names of factions are infus'd

In harmless infancy, which early thus abus'd,

Retains the venome it from breast derives,

All roads are block't by which the truth arrives,

Fond prejudice doth so bemist,

Trepaning custome doth so twist

Their minds to errour, that it vain

And bootless labour proves them to regain.

IV.

Disputing is as Oyl to raging flame;

They glory in their sufferings pompous name,

And by resisting do increase their fame.

All gentleness they think a cheat,

[Page]And dread the enemy most when he doth treat.

God bless me, what disease is this,

Whose cure all Medicines do miss!

They'r wanton if we cordials use,

Sure, goodness they abuse;

Or if to abate the feverish heat,

Some noisome blood we would let out;

Then grows the madness of the frantick rout.

If fines as Medicines their bowels drain,

Then they aloud of grinding do complain.

This strange distemper doth all skill defy▪

Physicians hopes still falsify.

But as a joynt which Gangrene doth corrupt,

Must be cut off from the sound lump [...]

Better the body grow a stump,

Than by such members bankerrupt.

Yet often doth this Hydra multiply

When cropt, one head to seven will fructify.

Or as a tree which with new force doth spring,

When lopt by pruner is its over spreading wing;

So doth this poysonous Weed still further spread,

And as the Camomine, grow the more it's tread.

The Cockle still with Wheat will blend,

Till winnowing flames to mixture put an end.

Good Grains with Tares may chance to be pull'd up,

Delay their doom till brimfull be their cup.

Then chaffed justice shall the chaff devour,

And Angel-reapers bring the just to Heavens floor.

FINIS.

A continuation of the former Conference.
DIALOGUE VII.

[Page]

C.

I Am heartily glad of this opportunity of meeting with you again, and will be more glad to find our last Conference producing the effect design'd by it; which was to beget in you a true sense of Religion, that you may walk worthy of your high and holy calling; for, I can have no greater joy than to see you walking in the truth.

N.

I thank you for being so concerned in the welfare of my Soul: and, by the grace of God, I shall make it my daily work to be perfecting holinesse in his fear: But, I must be on my guard when I converse with you; since you publish our private discourses, which I do not take kindly; for, you take advantage from my weakness, and, by running me down, make the whole party suffer.

C.

The true reason why I consented to the publishing of our Conference (for I candidly assure you, I did no more but give my consent to him, who, being pleased with the [Page] written account of it, desired to make it publick) was, since I thought I had allayed a great deal of the heat I met with in you upon these matters, I presumed it might produce the like good effect in others. If in any thing I seem to take too great advantage against you, it is with reason: neither is it an humour of drolling or insulting, that makes me sometimes a little pleasant; since in all Dialogues you will find the transitions sweetned with somewhat of that, even when the gravest matters are treated of.

N.

Some charge you with Socinianism, others with Popery, others with Arminianism, and others with Quakerism. I confesse their grounds seem'd to me, very slender, but they say it is very clear, and tell their followers to shun you as a pest.

C.

God forgive their malice, I pray God it be not laid to their charge at the last day, that they so falsly and injuriously reproach me. I know the Arts of some well, they will tell their people that we are unsound and Heterodox, and back their hard words with grave nods and wry faces; and the poor people, too inured to implicit faith, give an undoubted credit to what they say: But do they understand things, who charge a man with Socinianism, who believeth that Christ is the eternal Son of God, and hopes for salvation only through his blood? and they are as well [Page] versed in Popery, who charge me with it; for, can he be heretical in Justification, who ascribes all we receive in this life and in that to come, to the love and grace of God through Jesus Christ? And you know all that Calvin and his followers aim at in the matter of Arminius his points, is, that all ou [...] good be ascribed to God: how then can he be erroneous in this matter, who asserts that? But as for Quakerism, the grounds on which they tax me of that, are so ridiculous, that I am ashamed to name them; and, I assure you I am so far from inclining to Quakers, that I look on that Sect, as one of the subtillest devices yet broached for the overthrow of Christian Religion. But, if that spirit be not the womb, from whence all these Sects and errours have sprung amongst us, let all that look on, judge; none falling to them in this Country but such as were formerly most violent in their way. And though I am sure, they are far enough from being Quakers, yet their principles have a natural tendency that way: whence, think you, have they suckt their rejecting of all forms and order (under [...] pretence that the Spirit is not to be prelimited) but from your notions against Liturgies and for extemporany heats? Next, the liberty you take to medle in matters too high for you, and judge of every thing, without thinking you are bound to reverence either [Page] the present or antient Church, (I plead not for implicit faith) opens a wide door for their pretensions to a liberty of the Spirit; which at once renounceth all modesty and humility. Next, your humour of separation, begets that giddiness in people, that, no wonder, they, being shaken from the unity of the Church, also stagger through unbeleef. As also, many of you cherish in your followers a dejection of mind too much, as if Religion, which gives a man a right to the purest joyes, should become a life of doubting, and this introduceth a spirit of Melancholy, which clearly makes way to that pretended Enthusiasm. And thus you may see who are to be blamed for the progresse that way makes amongst us, you having prepared the people so to it. But still I assure you, though I cannot but see the faults, too many amongst you are guilty of, I am far from hating or despising you, God knowes I pity and love you with all my heart.

N.

But every one doth not judge so favourably of you; in a word, you are called [...] petulant profane and malicious person, and [...] scoffer at true piety; under a pretence of it labouring to defame the Cause and work o [...] God, which shall have a sweet savour to al [...] posterity, when your memory will rot: Yo [...] pretend to moderation, but art the most immoderat of any: this is the vulgar sense [...] [Page] that Book, and of its concealed Author, who, they adde, doth well to conceal his name from such a work of darknesse.

C.

I hope you know my temper better, than to think these things will much move me: I will learn to live through good report and ill report, and am so far from being angry with those who thus traduce me, that if I knew how to do them a good office I would infallibly do it. Yea, if my heart deceive me not, I could die to do them service. I have no anger, God knoweth, at their persons nor their wayes, further than I think they are destructive of the unity of that body, whereof Christ is the head: and consequently obstruct the advancement of Religion. I alwayes classe them in two divisions, the one is, of such as are indeed differing from us in their opinion, but withall are sober and modest, not rash in their censures, nor bitter in their passions: and such I honour and love, and doubt not but there are grave and pious persons of that persuasion, whom I also honour the more, because of their first founder Calvin (take not this as a jeer; for, I assure you, the first being ever Presbytry had, was in Calvius brain.) But others, besides their opinion in the matter of Church-government, are of foure tempers, condemning such as differ from them, judging all who are not as violent as themselves, [Page] placing Salvation in these matters, and thus confining their charity within the narrow circle of their own opinion: as for such, they get but their true name, when they are called Fanaticks, and though I will be loath to judge them as to the state of their souls; yet, whatever good Christians they might prove in a Cell, or in a Desart, I assure you, they are not shap't for Societies; their maximes being inconsistent with peace, order and unity: And they are as unfit to govern, as uncapable of being governed; and, for these do not quarrel me, if I speak severly of them: but remember what one of your own deservedly esteemed Preachers sayeth (it is like occasioned by the differences then, when they were forced to represse the insolence of the protesting Party) on Iob 17. verse 10. Doct. 4. Albeit Godlinesse teach men modesty and sobriety, and to be tender of the reputation of others; yet that doth not hinder them to tell men, what they are, when they are called to it in the defence of truth: and that they may give a check to their proud conceit of themselves: These words are so clear and comprehensive that they need no further explication, and serve as a compleat apology for any sharpnesse I might have used. I should indeed be very injurious to the Presbyterian party, did I charge them with all the humours and follies that are among you: the English Presbyterians [Page] are far beyond you in their moderation, as is notour to all that know them, and may appear from Mr. Baxter's Disputations on Church-government: yea, in the late treaty, all they desired, was, to be conjoined with the Bishops in the exercise of Discipline, which you refuse, though it be offered and pressed upon you. Next, before the late disorders, all the Presbyterians in Scotland, did fit in the Courts for Church-discipline, and why may you not as well do the like?

N.

The odds is very great; for, then Presbyteries stood by the Legal establishment; the Act for them being still in force, which was rescinded at the restoration of Bishops, Anno 1662: so that the old foundation being razed, they are no more Presbyteries.

C.

You may remember what I said to you at our fourth meeting upon this head: but one thing I must adde, which will surprize you, it is truly very strange how matters of fact are so confidently asserted, and so tamely believed, without consideration: you give it out to every body, that the law for Presbyteries, was in force till the year 1662. and this is in all your mouthes, and I confesse, I never doubted the matter of fact to be true, till of [...]ate I was undeceived by a person of great honour, who shew me the Act Parliament 21. Iacob. ch. 1. where it is expresly said, annulling and rescinding the 114 Act of [Page] his Majesties Parliament, holden Anno 1592. and that is the Act which setled Presbytery; and now, what can I think? God forbid I suspect this of disingenuous forgery; and yet perhaps, if you catched us in such a trip, it would be told us on our deafest ear; but it cannot be denyed to be intolerable ignorance and supinnesse, to take such a matter upon [...]rust; and since you make this the chief ground why you differ from your Predecessors in this matter, how can you answer to God who have made a Schisme from the Church, without examining the grounds upon which you did it? but I hope now that you see upon what sandy and slender foundations you have been building, you will consider your way better hereafter, and return into union with us: for I am still desirous and willing to hope well of you.

N.

Truly you are in the wrong to many of them, for few of them are so bitter against you as you seem to be against them: and I assure you they pray often for you, though you I doubt seldom pray for them.

C.

I tell you again and again, I have no quarrel with such of them as are calm and modest, only I regrate they are too few. As for the others love to us, wo should it be to you and me, if the love of God to us (which ought to be our measure of love to the brethren) did appear in such effects as theirs [Page] doth. If they pray for us, it is in the most invidious strain imaginable, that God would bring us down and destroy such of us as are incorrigible, and shew the rest of us the evil of our apostacy and defection: this you know is the universal strain of their prayers concerning us. But, how would they take it, if we should pray that God would destroy their party, and shew them the evil of their cruelty, rebellion and other wicked courses? Now this is the true Character of an insolent, who takes a liberty with all the world, but cannot be touched himself. And you know, we alwayes pray, that God would unite this poor Church, and heal our breaches; which shews the healing and peaceable spirit is on our side: Our prayers being such, that none can refuse to say Amen to them: And upon all occasions, we declare we are not only ready to unite with them, but are extreamly desirous of it. And if you will believe me, I assure you, I daily pray for them in this strain most cordially: whereas there is nothing they fear more than an accommodation; nay, in their Books they directly own, that all that can be done, ought to be done for keeping life in our differences: and who could ever have expected to have heard this doctrine in the school of Christ? And let all men judge, if there be not a bitternesse in the preface to Mr. Rhetorfort's letters, the Apologetical Narration, and Naphtali, [Page] which is unsampled in any Satire, not to say grave and Christian writing. And what cursed doctrine is it Naphthali broacheth concerning private persons their punishing of crimes in case of the supinnesse of the Magistrate? for, ransack all the Provincial letters, Escobar or the other profane Casuists of that wicked school, you shall not find a more impious and detestable opinion among them; and what cursed effects this produced, all the Nation saw: when in the sight of the Sun a vilain with a pistol invaded the persons of two of the Fathers of the Church, and that in the chief street of our royal City. And though the providence of God shielded the one totally from his fury, and preserved the life of the other, though with the losse of his arm, all shattered with the wound; yet his malice was not to be blamed, for that asassinations were only wanting to compleet the parallel betwixt that spirit and the Iesuits, which is indeed the same spirit moving in different Characters. I do not charge the fact on that party, but acknowledge, I never spoke with one who did not express their abhorrency of it; but, without all uncharitableness, I may charge it on the Author of Naphthali.

N.

But one thing ever sticks with me: I confesse at our last discourse, you gave me good rules in order to a Christian life, but still you design to make me regardlesse of the [Page] state of the Church, which is, that I be only self-concerned, and neglect the interests of Christ, whereas, what ought to be dearer to me then the glory of God? and surely when that suffers, all that love him will be tenderly affected, so was David and Ieremiah, for the desolations of their times; and it is a strange piece of Religion to be unconcerned in Gods glory, which is to be like Gallio, to care for none of these things.

C.

All things have two sides; so this doctrine of resignation, if you look to it on the wrong one, seems like unconcerned stupidity; yet, rightly considered, it is one of the highest pieces of Christianity: for, if you believe (which you must believe, else you are no good Christian) that Christ governes his Church, you must also believe that he doth all things well: since he hath all power in heaven and earth committed to him; and in him are all treasures of wisdom and of knowledge; and he loved his Church so, that he died for it. Now since his power enables him to do what he pleaseth, and his goodness inclines him to please what is best, and his wisdom cannot erre in the choice, Where is there rowm for any miscarriage in the government of the World? why then are we to vex our selves with any anxiety? doth not that tacitly accuse God, as if he did not mind his Church as he ought? or doth it not imply if we were [Page] of his council, we could adjust things better? Therefore, as in all our personal concernments, we ought to go about our duty with diligence, leaving events wholly to Gods care; So, in the publick conce [...]nments of his Church, we are to commit the management of them to him, on whose shoulders the Government was laid by the Father; and rest securely in this perswasion, that all things cooperat in promoting the grand designs of eternal wisdom and goodness: but still we are to concern our selves in the good of the Church above all things, next to the salvation of our own souls: but this is to be expressed, as in our most servent solliciting of God in behalf of his Church (to which we are oblidged as well as to pray for our selves, we thereby expressing to God our zeal for his glory, and our servent charity to the brethren) so also we are to let no opportunity slip, that God puts in our hands of doing good: But, as we are called, we are to do good as far as our station reacheth, and that upon all hazards; yet, even in that, we are with David, not to meddle in matters too high for us, and with St. Paul, not to stretch our selves beyond our own measure and line; but withall, we are to let no inward dejecting melancholy possess our souls, which is contrary to the end of Religion, wherein we are called to rejoyce evermore; it being contrived of God to [Page] beget in us joyes, which cannot be taken from us; and nothing marrs the souls inward joy in God more than such sorrowes.

N.

But all this is still contrary to the holy men of God: What sad complaints are in the Psalms and Prophets, and chiefly in the Lamentations? And certainly, we, in the new dispensation, enjoying a clearer manifestation of the love of God, ought to be so much the more zealous for his glory.

C.

It seems you consider little the difference of the two dispensations: for, that of Moses was carnal, chiefly made up of temporal promises of an external prosperity; so these outward desolations were then signes of Gods displeasure against them, and therefore they did lament because of them: but now the Scene is wholly altered, and these outward afflictions and persecutions, are so far from being curses, as they were of old, that our Saviour hath pronounced them blessings; yea, he hath made these trials the Badges of our conformity to our Head, who was made perfect through sufferings. And therefore we are to glory and rejoyce in our sufferings, as did the Apostles; and in the primitive Church, though they were made havock of, in the most cruel manner, some torn by Lyons, and other wilde beasts, some killed by the sword, some burnt in the fire, some roasted on Gridirons, some thrown in boy [...]ing [Page] Caldrons, some had their flesh torn off by pincers, some were starved to death by hunger and cold; in a word, all the crueltie that diabolical malice could devise, was exercised upon them; yet not only the Martyrs themselves bore all, singing in the midst of their tortures, but the Churches also rejoyced in it: And the dayes of their death, were Festivals, called naetalitiae Martyrum, they counting their Martyrdom their most glorious birth. And by the Epistles Eusebius inserts in his History, we see they were far from complaining because of their sufferings. But you (because the Lawes are altered, and the Magistrate hath denied you further encouragement, and punished you, not for your Conscience, of which you cannot brag much, since none hath suffered because he was for Presbytery, or against Episcopacy, but for your unruly humours and practices) make such complaints to God as if heaven and earth were mixed, and adapt all the Lamentations of Ieremiah to your sorrie matters, as if the overthrow of Presbytery were to be compared to the Babylonish captivity; And see if the conclusion of the Apology, and all your other writtings run not in this stile. Now were your way what you imagine it to be, you should rejoyce, that you are called to suffer for it, and not to make such tragical complaints. And I am sure, your bitterness against [Page] those whom you call your enemies, looks nothing like the mildnesse of Christ or the primitive Sufferers, who carried with all gentlenesse towards their persecutors, in meeknesse instructing those that opposed them; And this doth too palpably declare, you are strangers to the serene and dove-like spirit of the Gospel.

N.

You alwayes run to the primitive Christians; but far fowles have fair feathers, and if you examine the practice of the Reformers, they universally resisted the Magistrate, and carried on the Reformation by Arms; and how then dare you charge the Doctrine of resistance with Rebellion, since you thereby stain that glorious Work?

C.

I assure you, I have a great veneration for the Reformers, and look on them as persons sent of God, to rescue his Church from the grosse superstition and Idolatry had overspred it; but for all that, you must pardon me still to prefer the primitive Christians to them: As for casting reproaches on them, it shall quickly appear whither of us be the more guilty in it. I will therefore from undeniable evidence of History convince you of the falshood of that vulgar errour, that the Reformation was carried on by restistance; and shall begin with the Waldenses, who resisted not the King of France, as is clear in the History, notwithstanding of their unparallelled [Page] persecutions, when they were destroyed by thousands: Belle forrest tells, that 60000 were killed in one town of Beziers; Spond. ad an. 1209. tells of seven thousand, being murdered at once in one Church. It is true there were Wars betwixt the Count of Monfort and the Count of Tholouse; but the Count of Tholouse was a Peer of France; And the Peers, by the Constitution of Hugo Capit, were rather vassals then subjects to the King: besides, he only sought against Monfort. So Petrus Vallisarnensis, Hist. Albig. And in the Counc. of Monpellier, the Dominions of Tholouse were given to Simon Monfort, but not by the King, neither was the Legate well pleased, that the Kings Son came and took the crosse, lest he might thereby pretend some right in these Dominions, which the Pope pretended were his: Simon Monfort therefore was a bloody Emissary of the Popes, and not authorized by Philip August. then King of France, who gave no other concurrence to the War, save that he permitted his Subjects to Arm in it: so, here was no resistance of Subjects against their Soveraign.

N.

But did not the Bohemians, under Zisca, fight and resist when the Challice was denied them?

C.

In the general, consider that the Crown of Bohem, is elective: in which case, certainly the States of a Kingdom share more largely [Page] of the Soveraign power: Besides, he from whom we have the best account of the Bohemian Churches, Comenius (in ordine unitatis Bohemicae) gives but a slender character of Zisca and his bussinesse, extolling him chiefly as a good souldier. Besides, the justifiers of the late Bohemian Wars, never run upon this strain of subjects resisting their Soveraign, upon the account of Religion, but upon the lawes and liberties of that elective Kingdome. Neither were the Protestants too well satisfied with the last Bohemian-bussinesse; yea, King Iames, notwithstanding of his interest in the elected King, was no way cordial for it: these two I have joined together, because the Scene was the same, though the interval was great.

N.

But you know there was fighting in Germany upon the account of Religion.

C.

This showes how overly you read History, when you bring this as a president. When Luther rose, the Duke of Saxe, being moved of God, did receive the Reformation peaceably into his principalities, without any force; and his example was followed by other Princes and free cities: but, in the year 1524. and 1525. there arose a War in Germany, fomented by some troublesome Preachers, as saith the Historian, who pretended the liberty of the Gospel for their chief quarrell; and this was called the War of the Rusticks. And [Page] they appealing to Luther's judgement, he wrote again and again to them, condemning what they did, as an execrable and cursed Rebellion. He saith indeed, it was a great wickednesse in their Princes to force their consciences, but that did not at all excuse them; and tells how far he himself had been ever from such courses: and he calles those that somented the Rebellion, vilains; and not content with this, he stirred up the protestant Princes against them, who fought them and broke them. And in this I desire you will not consider the tatles of some ignorant persons, but read the History it self, and those excellent papers of Luther: for which I refer you to Sleidan, Lib. 5. And he will give you full satisfaction. Afterwards the Duke of Brunsuick, and some other Princes of Germany, did invade their neighbour protestant Princes, and combined in a league for the destruction of Lutheranisme: whereupon the Duke of Saxe, the Langrave of Hessen, and other Princes and free cities, met at Smalcald, to unite among themselves: but Luther was dissatisfied with this, till their Lawyers shewed him how by the bulla aurea, and other constitutions of the German Empire, it was lawfull for them to defend themselves: whereupon he consenting, they entered into that famous League. And every one who knowes any thing of that Empire, knowes well [Page] that the Princes are Soveraigns within themselves, and that the Emperour is only the head of the union. As for the War that afterwards followed betwixt Charles the 5th, and the Duke of Saxe, besides, that the Duke of Saxe, was free to defend himself, as I have told, Charles the 5th, declared it was not for Religion he fought, whatever his design was: neither did all the Princes of the Religion join against him. The Electors of Cullen and Pallatine, both Protestants, lay neuters; and the Elector of Brandenburg, and Maurice, afterwards Elector of Saxe, armed for the Emperour: So you may see, what pitifull Historians they are, who alledge the precedent of Germany. In Sweden, King Gustavus, Anno, 1524. with the States of that Kingdom, peaceably received the Reformation; neither were their any broils about it, till about seventy years after, that Sigismond, King of Polland (whom notwithstanding of his being Papist, they received for their King, he being the son of the former King of Sweden, and peaceably obeyed him) was by force entring the Kingdom, resolving to root out the Protestant Religion: Whereupon (Vide Decret. in comitiis Lincop. Anno, 1660.) they deposed him, and choosed his Uncle Charles King; no strange thing in the Swedenish History, that being an Elective Crown, before the Year, 1644. that the States received [Page] Gustavus then reigning for their Hereditary King; but still the States retained the supream Authority, as may appear by all their writs. Nor was it any wonder, if they, who had but a while before, crept out of an Elective Kingdom into an Hereditary, could not brook Sigismond his tyrannical invasion. And if this serve not to vindicat the Swedes; at least, the Reformation was not introduced by Wars among them, neither were ever the actions of that State, lookt upon as a precedent to others. In Denmark, Frederick the first, with the States of that Kingdom, received the Reformation peaceably, nor was there any violence used.

N.

But you cannot deny, there was force used in Helvetia and Geneve.

C.

This shews what a superficial Reader of History you are. In Switzerland, the Reformation was peaceablie received by Zurich (the first and chief Canton of that State) and other Towns. But other Cantons maligning them for this, at the instigation of the Pope and his instruments, injured them; so that at length it broke out into a civil War: wherein they of Zurich, as they were surprized by them, so continued to be purely defenders, vide Sleid. lib. 8. But you know Helvetia ill, if you know not that the Cantons, are no way subject to one another, and are free States, only united [Page] in a League, as are the seven Provinces: So that in their Treaties with France and other Princes, they often Treat sever'dly, Vide Siml. de Rep. Helv. As for Geneve, the Bishop fled from it, out of a pannick fear, when the Reformation was received: but no force was used to drive him out. Sleid. lib. 6. And beside, Geneve was a free Town, neither subject to the Bishop nor the Duke of Savoy; Vide Siml. de Rep. Helv. lib. 10. de Geneve.

N.

What say you to the War in the Netherlands?

C.

I say still, it was not for Religion they sought, Papists and Protestants jointly concurring; And C. Egmond and C. Horn who were beheaded by the Duke of Alve, as the chief instruments in it, died both Papists; yea, the State by a placart, declared it scandalous to say they fought for Religion; the true ground of the quarrel (as you may read in all the Histories) was, that their Prince was not an absolute Soveraign, but limited in his power, and that by expresse compact, they might use force if he transgressed his limits: which he did most notoriously and tirandically: and for all this, I refer you to Grotius, de Antiquitate Bataviae & in lib. Ann. who yet is one of the strongest pleaders for subjection to Magistracy.

N.

But nothing of this can be alledged to palliat the French civil Wars?

[Page]C.

The first civil Wars were mannaged by the Princes of the blood, who by the Laws of that Crown, are not ordinarie subjects. Besides, the Wars were begun in the minority of the King; in which case the powers of the Princes is greater: I do not for all this deny their following Wars, were direct rebellion; but consider the fierce spirit of that Nation (ready to fight for any thing) and you must confesse, it was not Religion, but their temper that was to be blamed; but now many of the eminent men of that Church are fully convinced of the evil of these courses: and do ingenuouslie condemn them. Yea, in the Wars of the last King, one of the glories of our Nation, Cameron, at Mountowban directly preached against their courses, and taxed them of Rebellion.

N.

But if that was Rebellion, how did the late King of Britain give assistance to the Rochellers in the last Wars?

C.

There was a particular reason in that, as appears from the account the illustrious Duke of Rohan gives of it: for the King of Britain had interposed in the former pacification, and had given surety to the Protestants, that the French King should religiously observe the agreement: But the King of France violating this, the King of Britain thereby receiving so publick an injurie and affront, was oblidged in honour to assist [Page] them: which for his part was most just, whatever the Subjects of France their part in it might be. And thus I have cleared the Churches abroad of that injurious stain you brand them with: And by this let all men judge whether you or I do them the best office. But to come to our own Britain, you know it is the glory of the English Reformation, that it was stained with no blood, save that of Martyrs, which was its chief ornament: Yea, though a Popish and persecuting Queen interveened betwixt the first Reformation of King Edward, and the second of Queen Elizabeth; yet, none rebelled: For that of Wyat, was not upon the account of Religion; but in opposition to the matching with King Philip of Spain. It is true Scotland hath not that glory: but as we were long allyed to France; so we have too much of their temper: so that it passeth as a common saying, of Scots-men, praefervida Scotorum ingenia. And all that travelled the world, can witnesse that we were not approven in our late rebellion abroad. I shall not instance what Diodati, Spanhem, Rivet, Salmasius, Blondel, Amerald, de Moulin, and many of the greatest and most famed Forreign Divines, have publickly expressed against it. Some in Print, others in publick discourses and Sermons. One thing I will not passe by, that in the consistory of Charrenton, they [Page] made an Act, that no man should be barred the Communion for the Scots excommunication, except it were for a crime; and so told the late Bishop of Orkney then of Galloway, that the pretended excommunication of Scotland, should no way hinder their receiving him to their Communion; and this was a loud declaration of their disowning and condemning the Scots practices.

N.

But tell me ingenuously, Are there no precedents in History for Subjects fighting upon the account of Religion; and have none of the Writters of the Church asserted it?

C.

Yes, there have, and I will deal ingenously with you upon this head. The first I know is Pope Gregory the seventh, who armed the subjects of Germany against Henry the fourth Emperour, upon the account of Religion; because the Emperour laid claime to the investitures of Bishops, they being then secular Princes. And this prospering so well in the hands of Hildebrand, other Popes made no bones, upon any displeasure they conceived, either against King or Emperour, to take his Kingdom from him, and free his subjects from their obedience to him; alwayes pretending some matter of Religion, as you may read particularly in the History of Frederick the first, Frederick the second, Lewis of Baviere, Emperours, Philip Le bell and Lewis the 12th of France, Henry the second, [Page] and Iohn of England, Conradine of Naples, and Charles of Navarre. These are the eldest precedents I meet with in History, for your bussinesse; and the latest is the holy League of France, from which our whole matter seems transcribed. The authors who plead for this, are only Courtiers, Cannonists and Iesuits. Now how are you not ashamed in a matter of such importance to symbolize with the worst gang of the Roman Church, (for the soberer of them condemn it) yet fill heaven and earth with your clamours if in some innocenter things the Church of England seem to symbolize with them?

N.

No, you still retain the Papacy, you only change the person from the Pope to the King, whom you make head of the Church, and swear to him in these termes.

C.

This is so impudent a calumny, that none but such as have a minde to reproach would use it: which I shall clear by giving an account of the whole matter. In England, you know the Pope, beside his general tyranny, exercised a particular authority, after King Iohn had basely resigned the Crown to him, vide Matth. Paris. ad An. 1213. When therefore the Reformation was introduced in England, and the Papal yoke shaken off, the oath of Supremacy was brought in to exclude all forreign jurisdiction, and to reinstate the King in his civil authority over all persons [Page]and in all causes, as well ecclesiastical as civil. I confesse Henry the eight, did directly set up a civil Papacy, but you know the Reformation of England was never dated from his breach with the Bishop of Rome: But the oath of Supremacy was never designed to take away the Churches intrinsick power, Or to make that the power of Ordination, giving Sacraments, or Discipline, flowed from the King, to which he only gives his civil sanction and confirmation. However, because the words being general, might suggest some scrouples, they are clearly explained in an Act of Parliament of Queen Elizabeth; and in one of the 39 Articles, and more fully by the incomparable and blessed Bishop Vsher, to whom, for his pains, King Iames gave thanks in a letter. Now this Oath being brought from England to Scotland, none ought to pretend scrouples, since both the words in themselves are sufficiently plain, and the meaning affixed to them in England, is yet plainer: And we having it from them, must be understood to have it in their sense.

N.

But this clearly makes way for Erastianism.

C.

This is one of your mutinous Arts, to find out long and hard names, and affix them to any thing that displeaseth you. In the Old Testament, you find the Kings of Iudah frequently medling in Divine matters; and the [Page] Sannedrim, which was a civil court, determined in all matters of Religion; And you are very ignorant in History if you know not, that the Christian Emperours still medled in matters of Religion. The first general Councils, were called by them, as appears by their Synodical Acts and Epistles. And by the accounts all the Historians give, they also preceeded in the Councils; so Constantine at Nice, Theodose at Constantinople, Earl Candidianus in name of Theodose the second at Ephesus, and Martian at Chalcedon. Its true in preceeding, they only ordered matters, but did not decide in them, as particularly appears from the Commission given to Earle Candidianus, inserted in the Acts of the Ephesin Council. They also judged in matters of schisme; so Constantine in the Donatist bussinesse, even after it had been judged, both by Miltiades and Marcus, Bishops of Rome and Millan, by the Synod of Arles, and by the Council of Nice; Yea, the Code and Basilicks, and the Capitolers of Charles the great, shew, they never thought it without their sphere, to make lawes in Ecclesiastick matters. The Bishops also were named by them, or, at least, their elections were to be approven by them, not excepting the Roman Bishop, though he was the proudest pretender of all, who after the overthrow of the Western Empire, was to send to Constantinople or Ravenna, to get [Page] his Election ratified: and when the Western Empire was reasumed by Charles the great at Rome, it was expresly provided, that the Emperour should choose the Roman Bishop. So Kings medling in Ecclesiastical affaires, was never contraverted till the Roman Church swelled to the height of Tyranny, and since the Reformation, it hath been still stated as one of the differences betwixt us and them.

N.

Well then, I hope you who are so much for the Kings Supremacy, will not quarrel at this indulgence, which is now granted to us.

C.

We are better subjects then to criticize upon, much lesse condemn our Soveraigns pleasure in such things, neither do we as you did, carry all these matters to the Pulpit. But, I pray, how would you (Anno 1641.) have received such a proposition from the King in favours of the Doctors of Aberdeen, or other worthy persons, whom you drove away by tumults, not by lawes: I doubt, all your Pulpits should have rung with it. And we may guesse at this by the opposition many of you made to the receiving of suspected persons into the Army, for the necessary defence of the Countrey, then almost overrun by the enemy: so that you have now got a favour which you were never in a capacity to have granted to us when you governed: and yet you see with what cheerfull obedience we receive his Majesties pleasure, even in an instance, which may seem most contrary to all our interests: [Page] Or, if any have their jealousies, they stiffle them so within their breast, that none whisper against authority.

N.

This sayes it is against your will, and therefore your compliance to it is forced, not voluntary.

C.

So much the greater is our vertue, when we obey and submit to things against our inclinations, which you never dream of: but we are so inclined to peace, that if you abuse not this liberty you have got, we shall never complain of it; nay, if it produce the effects which we desire, and for which we are assured it is designed, we shall rejoyce for it: which are to bring you to a more peaceable temper, to make you value and love more one of the Noblest and most generous Princes that ever ruled, and to dispose you to a brotherly accommodation with us, which the Fathers of the Church, are ready to offer to you on as fair terms as could be demanded by any rational person; whereby, if you listen not to them, it will appear to the world, that you are truly Schismatical: And to encline you more to union, I intend, at our next meeting, to give you a full prospect of the state of the antient Church, both in their Government, Worship, and Discipline; whereby I doubt not to convince you, that their frame was far better suited for promoting all the ends of Religion, then ever Presbytery could be. But though I have made considerable observations in this, [Page] besides what is in various Collectors; yet, I cannot at present give you so particular a plann as I design; but shall reserve it till another meeting. Mean-while do not abuse our Soveraigns royal goodness, nor the tenderness of these he sets over you. But let us all jointly pray, that God, in whose hands all our hearts are, may incline us all to peace, love and charity: I shall therefore sum up all in the words of Scripture, which if they weigh not with you, there is no hope man shall prevail on you; If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies: fulfill ye my joy, that ye be like minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife, or vain glory, but in lowlinesse of mind, let each esteem others better then themselves. Who is a wise man, and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meeknesse of wisdom▪ But if you have bitter zeal (for that is the word in the Original) and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth: this wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual and divelish: For where zeal (the word is still the same) and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above, is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy, and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy; and the[Page]fruit of righteousness is sowen in peace, of them that make peace. Put on therefore (as the elect of God, holy and beloved) bowels of mercies, kindnesse, humblenesse of mind, meeknesse, long-suffering, forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave the Church, so also do ye: but above all these things, put on Charity, which is the bond of perfectness; and let the peace of God rule in your minds, to the which also you are called in one body: and be ye thankfull. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom, [...]eaching and admonishing one another in Psalms and Hymns, and spiritual Songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

N.

In all this I agree with you, and heartily wish these words were more deeply infixed in our minds: For, I confess, I am weary of the janglings of Divines, and long for peace as much as any can; and indeed there is nothing makes converse grow more wearisome to me, then that I meet with very few who love peace; but, generally, the minds of all are so fretted, that I often remind and repeat Davids groan, Oh! that I had wings like a Dove, for then would I flee away and be at rest; I would hasten my escape from the windy storm and tempest. And indeed the farther I see into the great businesse of Religion, I am the more convinced of the necessity of a serene and [Page] placide temper, which so qualifies the soul for divine converse.

C.

Oh! how have these words you dropt last united my heart to you? My Soul hath too long dwelt amongst them that hate peace; and the thick foggs and mists of contention, have rendered the air of this valley of tears the more noisome: But my releef is in divine contemplation, whether, as to the mountain of God, I flee for sanctuary, that being above this atmosphere of contentions and passions, I may take that rest in God, which is denied me here below: whether whoso arrive, finde that placide tranquillity and joy unspeakable, that they must needs heartily compassionat all such who are strangers to this peace of God which passeth understanding: for, I assure you, there are no joyes comparable to these purer solaces. This is the secret of Gods presence, where you may be hid from the pride of man, and kept, as in a pavilion, from the strife of tongues. Let us therefore flee from this evil world, and flee into the blessed and refreshful shades of the Almighty, avoiding foolish and unlearned questions, knowing that they do gender [...]rife; for, the servant of the Lord must not strive. I shall therefore leave you with these thoughts, hoping they shall be daily more deeply infixedin your mind. Farewel.

FINIS.

[Page]

Information about this book

Title statement

A modest and free conference betwixt a conformist and a non-conformist about the present distempers of Scotland now in seven dialogues / by a lover of peace.

Burnet, Gilbert, 1643-1715.

Edition statement

1669

Publication

Publisher

Text Creation Partnership,

Place of publication

Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) :

Date

2004-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1).

ID [DLPS]

A30390

ID [STC]

Wing B5834

ID [STC]

ESTC R27816

ID [EEBO-CITATION]

10152305

ID [OCLC]

ocm 10152305

ID [VID]

44658

Availability

This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal. The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission.

Series

Early English books online.

Notes

(EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A30390)

Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 44658)

Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1378:10)

Source

— A modest and free conference betwixt a conformist and a non-conformist about the present distempers of Scotland now in seven dialogues / by a lover of peace., Burnet, Gilbert, 1643-1715.. The second edition..

Extent

[11], 100, 32 p.

s.n.],. [Edinburgh? :: 1669.. ("Published by order.") (Attributed to Gilbert Burnet--Wing and British Museum catalogue.) (Reproduction of original in the Cambridge University Library.)

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