Two conferences between some of those that are called Separatists & Independents, concerning their different tenents one whereof, was appointed with Mr. Burton and a number of his church, and the other with Mr. John Goodwin and some of his church ... / now published by D.B. ...

TWO CONFERENCES BETWEEN Some of thoſe that are called Separatiſts & Independents, Concerning their different TENENTS: ONE Whereof, was appointed with Mr. BURTON, and a number of his Church, and the other, with Mr. John Goodwin, and ſome of his Church; which was occaſioned by a Gentlewoman being a Member thereof, whoſe Husband is one of the Separation: with a Letter written to that purpoſe.

NOW Publiſhed by D. B. for reſolution of thoſe who are doubtfull, in all or any of the matters here controverted; chiefly concerning the High places, which are uſually called Churches, and now of late by the Souldiers, Steeple-houſes.

LONDON, Printed by John Clowes, and are to be ſold at the Blew-Anchor in Cornehill, 1650.

To the impartial Reader.

THere being a meeting appointed between Mr. Burton, with ſome of his Congregation, and ſome of my judgement in matters of Religion, that both they and we might conferre together, and the better know the difference of our profeſſions and practiſes, and ſo indeavour (if poſſible) to be of our mind, concerning the truth; at which meeting, we expected accordingly to have had all matters in controverſie between us, fully and lovingly, debated; but the iſſue did not prove, as we could have wiſhed.

Again, upon an other occaſion of ſome difference alſo, in certain points of Religion, between a Sea Captain and his wife, he being one of our Members, and ſhe of Mr. John Goodwins: a meeting likewiſe was appointed between him, with ſome of his Church, and ſome of ours, at which meeting thoſe matters were diſcuſſed at large, though many lets (as in the former) were caſt in the way, to hinder both the progreſs and concluſion thereof.

Now, ſeeing the firſt of theſe conferences was above ſix yeares agoe, and the laſt about one year agoe, and both of them written when they were recent in the memory, it may thereby appear, how unwilling all or any of us (though having the better part, as we hope) have been, to divulge them or any of them to publick view.

But now upon further conſideration, and weighing the matter more ſeriouſly, (as in aballance) I find that in the one ſcale, all the prejudice and diſcontent, which the other party may poſſibly take without any juſt cauſe, in that we thus ſhew here to the world, both their parts and ours, to be all very light; in compariſon of the generality of the peoples great ignorance, and manifold doubts in the other ſcale; who are ſtill captivated in Babel, and both miſled and blindfolded, not onely by the Clergy in general, who ſucceed their Lords and Maſters, the Biſhops, (howbeit the Servant be not a-above his Lord) but even ſtill for ſiniſter ends, by the moſt ſmooth and ſubtle ſort of them, who make a greater ſhew of godlineſs, and reformation then the reſt, ſuch us this Mr. Goodwin is, and Mr. Burton was.

This ignorance and doubting doth conſiſt in divers particulars concerning the ſacred worſhip of God, chiefly the high places, otherwiſe called Churches and Steeple-houſes, here in both conferences controverted: although their national Church-worſhip, worſhippers, Miniſtry, Covernment, and maintenance, are there by the ſcope of all to be obſerved: in which and many other, moſt of the people are alſo very ignorant and doubtful.

And conſidering, as on the one ſide, that no man ought to hide his Talent, nor be a ſelf-lover; but every Chriſtian eſpecially, is to diſpenſe whatſoever meaſure of gift he hath received, to the good of others; ſo on the other ſide, what great need there is ſtill (as was ſaid) both of information and reſolution in the aforeſaid matters, (notwithſtanding all the floods of books now a dayes, concerning other ſubjects.

And although Mr. Chidley (my yoak-fellow in the firſt, and both for himſelf and me in the laſt,) was ſomewhat averſe to the publiſhing of the buſineſs, yet ſince we are of one mind in the particulars thereof, the reſt of us have thus brought both Conferences to publick obſervation, chiefly concerning the high-places, for though we have often heard, that howbeit Rome was not built in one day, (as the proverb is) yet a greater number of Romiſh houſes, ſuch as the Monaſteries, Abbies and Nunries both in Scotland and England, were demoliſhed in one day formerly, then there have been Croſſes pulled down, either on Steeples or Streetes, in a hundred of theſe dayes, now wherein we live, notwithſtanding there were both far more letts, and fewer pretences of reformation, in thoſe dayes then in theſe.

Thus, having no further occaſion here, to hinder thee from this good occaſion it ſelf, I refer thee to take hold thereof, and of all things elſe, which may adde to thy knowledge and ſanctification, as I wiſh to do my-ſelf, whiles there is any time or opportunity yet remaining: onely at preſent, I intreat thee, that what degree of profit ſoever thou reapeſt hereby, thou wilt give unto God (as the onely true owner) the whole praiſe: and as for me his weak inſtrument in this behalf, if I incur no juſt diſpraiſe, I ſhall reſt fully and gladly contented,

Thine, as thou both deſireſt and endeavoureſt, not to follow any man whoſoever, further then that Man followeth Chriſt. DAVID BROWN.

Two Conferences, between ſome of thoſe that are called Separatiſts and Independents, concerning their different Tenents.

THere being a Conference in London, appointed between ſome of thoſe Chriſtians, uſually called the Separation, and Mr. Burton, a Paſtor of an Independant Church, concerning ſome differences between them, and divers Separatiſts coming to his houſe in Fryday-ſtreet, for that purpoſe, upon the 17. day of the 4. moneth, 1645. being the 5. day of the week, after Church-exerciſe, and onely three of them having occaſion to ſpeak, viz. Mr. Brown, Mr. Duppa, and Mr. Chidley; and the ſaid Mr. Brown, immediatly after the Conference, writing the ſum of what he and the ſaid Mr. Burton ſpake, which to this time he hath kept ſecret, and it might be he would have done ſtill, were it not that by the intreaty of certain friends, and to give them and others ſome ſatisfaction, concerning the high places of England, lately debated again between the ſaid Mr. Chidley and Mr. John Goodwin, he hath now divulged the ſame to publick view: together with that other Conference of late, which was occaſioned by a Member of our Congregation, whoſe wife was a Member of Mr. Goodwins Church, and deſired to be ſatisfyed, whether her Husband or ſhe was in the trueſt Church-ſtate.

The firſt Queſtion was, whether Mr. Burton and his Church were in the order of the Goſpel, that the Separation might know certainly how to eſteem them, intitle them, and have fellowſhip with them; and whether they were ſo indeed, as they profeſſed to be in word, and Mr. Burton anſwering affirmatively: it was in the next place demanded, how then did his practiſe and theirs ſo much differ, both their profeſſions and Covenants ſeeming to be alike, and therefore deſiring to have his practice compared with his Covenant or profeſſion, or any of them, with theirs of the Separation, which he abſolutely refuſed, ſaying, he and his Church were a free and Independant body or Corporation, and therefore not bound to make account to any other Church or people in the world, although never ſo famous, and one of his elders added, that the very (avaliers or Malignants themſelves, gave them the Title of Separatiſts.

But it being objected to Mr. Burton, that he was bound both by precept and example of the immediat Apoſtles, to give a reaſon of his faith, ſtop the mouthes of gain-ſayers, yea and approve himſelf to thoſe that are without, far more to thoſe that are within, even to be indeed as he profeſſeth himſelf and the rather, in that he is a teacher and guide to others; as the firſt Church of the Gentiles at Antiochia, thought it rather an honour then any diſparagement, to aske reſolution of ſome doubts at the Church of the Jewes, who were before them in the faith and order of the Goſpel at Jeruſalem, though ſome of the Apoſtles were preſent at both; and the rather, we hope you wil do, ſaid Mr. Brown, becauſe we come to you in love, eſteeming more of you then hundreds of your breeding, (I mean at the Univerſities) in regard both of your ſufferings and writings, far beyond what they have either acted or ſuffered, eſpecially for that publick Sermon, you made in the Pillary-Pulpit at Weſtminſter, three houres long, even reſiſting unto blood againſt the evill of the times, unto which I was a witneſſe, and is a motive of my coming to you at this time. He anſwered that his profeſſion and practiſe were agreeable, and that he and his people entered, according to the rules preſcribed in the Goſpel, and ſo walked for ought he knew, as many can bear witneſs, and we alſo may, if we wil come and hear him.

To the which or the like words, one of his Elders added that John Baptiſt ſent two of his Diſciples to ask our Saviour, whether he was the Meſſias, or if they ſhould look for another, and our Saviour not anſwering them directly, bids them tell their Maſter what they heard and ſaw, yea, and reckoneth up divers excellent particulars, which he onely expreſſed without either inference or application; ſo his meaning (to our apprehenſion) was, that if we were not pleaſed with what they profeſſed or practiſed, concerning the worſhip of God, we might rather come and ſee, and heare and obſerve, their works of converſion, and manner of converſation, then to reaſon the matter; but we deſiring firſt to conferre ſome few times, to ſee if we could poſſibly agree in the truth, perceiving their unwillingneſs, by ſome harſh ſpeeches and carriages, did apprehend it would be to ſmall purpoſe.

Upon the hearing of theſe or words to that purpoſe, Mr. Burton ſaid, that he had renounced his Miniſtry and Orders which he had of the Church of England, and that he witneſſed by his ſuffering, againſt the Miniſtry, conſtitution, worſhip, Government, and high-places of that national Church, and that there was no holineſs in thoſe places.

And upon his juſtifying himſelf and his people in all things, by our Saviours practiſe and his Apoſtles, it was demanded by Mr. Brown; what meaneth then the blearing of thoſe ſheep, and the lowing of them Oxen daily in our eares if you do, and obey all things ſo well (as both Saul & the Angell of Laodicea, & many others ſpake of themſelves) what meaneth then (I ſay) both your preaching, and all your Members hearing in thoſe Pariſh-Aſſemblies; is it not a halting between two opinions, and that ye ſhew your ſelves, neither to be hot nor could in ſo doing?

He anſwered that our Saviour and his Apoſtles, reſorted to the Synagogues of the Jewes, and why might not they go as wel to the Pariſh-Aſſemblies?

But ſaith Mr. Brown, you muſt neither compare the Jewiſh Church with the Engliſh; nor yet the Synagogues of the one, with the high places of the other; but rather the high places of England, with thoſe in Judah, in that they have both an unlawful dedication and foundation; ſo it appeareth by your practiſe, whatſoever by your words you profeſs, that you are ſtill in Babel, abſolving the wicked (ſparing as it were the fatt) by your preſence, and condemning the juſt in Sion, (whom ye eſteem to be lean) by your abſence, though ye know obedience to be better then ſacrifice.

He and another of his Elders anſwered, that neither did he preach, nor they hear in every common Pariſh-Church, but ſuch as they chuſed above others, neither did they hear in thoſe high-places, as men were in diſcharge of their Miniſterial function, but onely in the exerciſe of their gifts, and not ſo much for edification, as that they might get ſome matter of accuſation againſt them by hearing them, and thereof make ſome profitable uſe, when they ſaw a convenient occaſion.

Then it was demanded, how he and other Independents could juſtifie their unequal yoking, with thoſe in the Pariſh-Aſſemblies, whom they judge to be onely of the world, and not of the Church, as themſelves profeſs to be; and though they partake in the word & prayer with them, in the publick high places, yet they are not ſo thankful, as to admit thoſe of the Aſſemblies to partake with them at their privat adminiſtring the ſeales, as if that privat ſeparation at that time, or in that place, would alter the national Church conſtitution of them and all the root together in one.

Whereas, they ſhould have no ſpiritual fellowſhip at all, with the unfruitful works of darkneſs, but rather reprove them, and witneſs againſt them, as both Iddo the Prophet did at Bethel, and as the Jewes were commanded of God, not to go to Bethaven, Beerſheba, Bethel, nor Gilgal, yea and we find it recorded, as a But or Exception, even againſt ſome of the Kings of Judah, for not aboliſhing thoſe high places; whereby not onely evil it ſelf, but all the appearances and occaſions of evil might be removed; ſo that whatſoever place hath an Idolatrous inſtitution or dedication, cannot by any meanes be purged, but in altering the form thereof, by utter demolition, and ſcarce applying the ſame to a civil uſe, or to be a common habitation.

To which was anſwered, that thoſe places might ſtill be well uſed by Gods people, though they have been abuſed by Heathens and Papiſts.

Whereupon occaſion was taken by Mr. Brown, (ſeeing them ſo unwilling to confeſs the truth) to clear thoſe two points, both of a Church-ſtate; and place of meeting, expecting a ſatisfactory anſwer of them, at leaſt for the hearers ſake.

He affirmed, that in regard the Temple of Jeruſalem, was built according to Gods own direction, and therefore a holy work, alwayes capable to be purged, and reduced to the firſt principle of integrity, if ever it ſhould be abuſed by Idolatry; as it was polluted, purged, and reduced divers times, according as the Magiſtrates and people following their example, were diſpoſed to good or evil, as upon divine record, in the books of the Kings and Chronicles doth appear.

So the Churches conſtituted by the immediat Apoſtles, according to Chriſts inſtitution, conſiſting all of faithful people, according to viſibility, (referring ſecret things to God) and therefore, all proceeding from a true and holy original, whenſoever they ſhould be corrupted either by ſinful matter, or corrupt practiſes, as in Corinth by that inceſtuous perſon, or in Galatia by that falſe Doctrine, they were ſtill purgeable, and were indeed purged. for otherwiſe a little leaven, would have ſowred the whole lump.

And according both to the Temple and Churches purifying, Adam the firſt man, being created holy and unblameable, if he ſhould fall, (as he did indeed) to ſin and Apoſtacie, he was (by meanes of his original holineſs by creation) reſtored by the ſecond Adam Chriſt, to his former integrity.

But neither material Temples, built by the man of ſin and child of pardition, nor by the Heathens, and dedicated to Idolatry, and intitled by the name of Saints departed, although otherwiſe uſed to the worſhip of God, as the Jewes did ſacrifice ſtill in the high-places of Judah, after King Manaſſes converſion and reformation, 2 Chron. 33. 17. nor yet aſſemblies gathered or conſtituted by humane invention, contrary to the patern of the Churches mentioned in the Goſpel, can be reduced to any purity or integrity, becauſe they never had any, but muſt needes ſtill continue in Apoſtaſie and Idolatry, (as they were made thereof at the firſt, until there be a viſitation or diſſolution) as we have woful experience, even yet in theſe dayes: which were pretended to be dayes of reformation, and might be yet ſo indeed, if it ſhould pleaſe God to honour thoſe whom he hath ſet in Authority, with ſo excellent, worthy, and glorious a work, beyond all other works; as he did that worthy young King Joſiah.

To thoſe grounds thus, or to this effect layed, Mr. Burton and his congregation, in ſtead of anſwering, oppoſing, applying, or any wiſe clearing themſelves, (in a harſh and angry manner) propounded three queſtions to the Separatiſts.

Firſt, who built the Synagogues of the Jewes? To which he anſwered, In that the Scripture is ſilent, who built the Synagogues (except only a Centurion, who loved the Iewiſh Nation built one) it doth not become any man to demand the queſtion; neither is it neceſſary to edification or ſalvatiō; but we neither read nor hear of any dedication of them to Idolatry, which the Scottiſh Covenant abjureth, as wel as they do the Romiſh Hierarchy, worldly monarchy, blaſphemous liturgy, canonizing of Saints, and baptizing of bells; And it ſufficeth us, that the Synagogues were lawful meeting places, for the more frequent and convenient practice of the Jewiſh Religion, except what was appropriated to the Temple, at certain times of the year, or elſe neither our Saviour nor his Apoſtles would have countenanced thoſe places with their preſence; nor King David in the Pſalmes complained of the deſolation thereof.

His ſecond Queſtion was, Might no meeting-houſes be built, to the Churches of the Saints now under the Goſpel? To which the Separatiſts anſwered, that there both have been, and ſtill are many lawful meeting-places, built by lawful Authority for the Churches of the Saints under the Goſpel, for keeping them both from the injury of weather, and for their more quiet and peaceable practicing of the Ordinances, being ſheltered and hidden, both from the open and ſecret enemies of God and his truth, beſides the dwelling, houſes of Members and wel-willers, and wherein alſo are Churches, both habiting and converſing, and all without either dedication, conſecration, or any kind of ſuperſtition.

And his third queſtion was, Whether were thoſe which we call high-places, and he ſtill comparing to the Synagogues, conſecrated before, in, or after they were built? The Separatiſts anſwered, that Mr. Burton himſelf knew better, who built and dedicated thoſe ſhops of Antichriſt (wherein he hath lived all his dayes) then the Separatiſts, who were meer ſtrangers to ſuch things, and unto which, both he and his Congregation do ſtill bring all their Tithes, Sacrifices, Gifts, and Oblations; but for the hearers ſake, the Separatiſts ſaid, (according as they underſtood) that the full dedication of the houſe, (whatſoever be of the ground) muſt be at the accompliſhing: but in regard both of intention, earneſt, and beginning of action, are compleated at the firſt ſtone laying, as the Biſhops uſually laid the firſt ſtone, and made the bleſſed (or rather curſed) beginning, and ſo they and the workmen proceeding and ending equally, the one with the other, by Maſſes, mattens, letanies, or ſuch like abominations, whereby the Popiſh Clergy (ſtil ſtrengthned with civil Authority) do practice their devotions in all their conſecrations.

And in end, after Mr. Burton did withdraw to refreſh himſelf, he being in exerciſe with his congregation before this appointed diſputation, amongſt ſome other ſpeeches had with the Elders and other Members of his Church in his abſence, they alleadged, that if we ſhould look ſo narrowly and preciſely, to Antichriſtian or Heatheniſh dedication of places, why do we offer any ſervice or ſacrifice to God at all, either in England, Scotland, France or Ireland; for they were all four dedicated to Saints departed, ſuch as St. George, St. Andrew, St. Denis, and St. Patrick?

It was anſwered, that thoſe Nations and all others, were created and built by the great CREATOR, builder, and maker of all things, and ordained for his people to live in, yea even the wicked as well as the godly, all having equal right by the benefit of Creation, even the tares as wel as the wheat in the field of the world, until the Haveſt of the great day; but he never ordained any Idolatrous places which are built and dedicated by man, (or by that man of ſin, and child of perdition) to be worſhipped in, but hath deſtinated ſuch works, yea and (workers alſo (except repentance intervene,) to deſtruction, and accounteth all kind of Sacrifices, upon whatſoever pretence there offered, to be like King Jeroboams practiſe at Dan and Bethel, (who made Iſrael to ſin) even abominations of deſolation.

Some of thoſe Scriptures which concern theſe matters.

Hoſ. 4. 15. Though thou Iſrael play the harlot, yet let not • udah offend, and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Bethaven, nor ſwear, The Lord liveth.

Amos 4. 4. 5. Come to Bethel and tranſgreſs, at Gilgal multiply tranſgreſſions; and bring your ſacrifices every morning, and your Tithes after three yeares. And offer a Sacrifice of thanks giving with leaven, and proclaim and publiſh the free offerings; for this liketh you, O ye Children of Iſrael, ſaith the Lord God.

2 Chron. 14. 2. 3, 4, 5. And Aſa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God. For he took away the Altars of the ſtrange gods, and the high-places, he brake down the Images, and cut down the Groves. And he took away out of all the Cities of Judah, the high places and the Images: and the Kingdom was quiet before him.

Levit. 26. 29, 30. And ye ſhall eat the fleſh of your Sons, and the fleſh of your Daughters ſhall ye eat. And I will deſtroy your high places, and cut down your Images, and caſt your Carcaſes, upon the Carcaſes of your Idoles, and my ſoule ſhall abhorre you.

2 Chron. 34. 1. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 1 Kings, 13. 2. 2 Kings 23. 13. 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20.

Mr. Chidleys Letter to Mr. Goodwin, And the ſumme of the Conference which followed thereupon. Mr. GOODVVIN.

THeſe are to certify you, that Mrs. Goodſone who is one of your Congregation is wife to one whoe is a Member with us of the Separation, and ſhe findeth her ſelfe agrieved that her Husband is not free to communicate with her in ſpirituall worſhip, now ſhe would willingly know wherein the difference lyes that we cannot communicate with you.

Therefore we have occaſion to inquire into the matter, forme, miniſtery, worſhip and government of your Church, and ſhall deſire ſatisfaction therein, that it is according to the rule, before we can joyne in Communion therewith, or with any of the Members thereof, knowing that our Lord Chriſt requireth ſeparation in Worſhip, not in part, but wholly, both from perſons and things polluted with diabolicall uncleanneſſe, and to cleanſe our ſelves from all filthineſs, both of fleſh and ſpirit, and to perfect holineſs in his feare, which is the deſire of the ſoule of him who is

Your true friend, ready to receive your manifeſtation when you ſhall appoint that I may come to you, or you to me, SAMUEL CHIDLEY. 13th day of the 6th month, 1648.

Upon the 22. of Auguſt, 1648. the meeting was appointed to be, unto which divers perſons came, at which Mr. Chidley would have inſiſted upon the matter and forme, &c.

And firſt upon the matter, but Mr. Goodwin would not debate that, nor other things there deſired to be handled, but ſaid, he would go a readier way to work, and make an end of the buſineſſe without that; for ſaith he, ſuppoſe it be granted, that all our matter be ſo corrupt, as you preſuppoſe it is, yet it is lawfull for your Members to communicate with ours; for ſaith he, it is lawfull for a man to communicate with one whom he doubts whether he be a Believer or not, but this was denied by Mr. Chidley, from two conſiderations.

Firſt, That whatſoever is doubtfull is not to be practiſed, though it be a thing indifferent, becauſe it is not of faith, and therefore a ſin, becauſe whatſoever is not of faith is ſin.

Secondly, much more is he to forbeare that which is contrary to the word of God, as to communicate with one of whom we have not good teſtimony of his life and converſation, and that the work of grace is wrought upon him, that he is effectually called, and ſeparated from Idolatry, and cleaveth unto the Way of Chriſt in purity. Now ſaid he, we know you not, yee are ſtrangers to us.

We are not come to accuſe, but to hear your manifeſtation for our ſatisfaction, that yee are fit matter for the Church of Chriſt, and we hope we ſhall not break Communion for every circumſtance of difference amongſt us, if it do not make againſt the aboſolute being of a Saint.

Then Mr. Goodwin ſaid, I grant that a man is not to practiſe a thing if he be doubtfull of it, but howſoever, he that is doubtfull is to give good reaſon of his doubt.

Then the Gentleman that doubted, was called upon to give his Reaſons, why he could not communicate with his wife, who told them that the Lord had ſhewed him the evill of the Church of England, and that he was joyned to a ſeparated Congregation, and thought that he ſhould not be fit matter for the Church to communicate with, if he ſhould hold Communion with the Members of Mr. Goodwins Church, becauſe Mr. Goodwins Peoples practice was to preach and heare in the Parriſh-Churches of England, and to Worſhip in the Idolls Temples, and to Baptize the Children of unbelievers, and ſuch like.

Then after ſome further diſcourſe, they ſhewed themſelves to be willing to debate the buſineſſe concerning the high places; whereupon the queſtion was ſtated.

Whether it were lawfull to worſhip in the Idolls Temples? The ſum of the Conference briefly followeth.Mr. John Goodwin. The Apoſtle to Timothy, (Tim. 2. 8.) ſaith, I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. And thereupon Mr. Goodwin argued, that Gods word had made no reſtriction, and therefore that we are not to reſtraine it, and that therefore this word: (every where) in this place is to be taken for all manner of places without exception.

To which Mr. Chidley anſwered, that God himſelf had made reſtrictions, ſhewing that we are not to worſhip him in Idolls Temples, for he hath commanded them to be quite pull'd down, Numb. 33. 52. and that command is not taken away, but remaineth in full force to this day; This word every in this place is to be reſtrained, as in other places, where its ſaid, Children obey your Parents in all things, Col. 3. 20. Servants obey your Maſters in all things; and every Creature of God is good, and all things are lawfull: In all which we are to know, how farre ſuch words are reſtrained, and how farre not; it extendeth, and is to be reſtrained to lawfull things, and ſo this place where he ſaith, pray every where, that is, in every place which is not prohibited by Gods Law, but its prohibited by Gods Law for the Saints to worſhip in Idols Temples, for he hath commanded, they ſhould be quite pluckt down, ſaying ye ſhall quite pluck down all their high places, Numb. 33. 52. becauſe they are polluted with diabolicall uncleanneſſe, now this Command was never abrogated, as I ſaid before: But Mr. Goodwin ſaid there is no Guilt of ſin upon the high places, neither is there any ſin imputed to them, but its a ſin to hold reſtriction of places for Gods worſhip

To which Mr. Chidley anſwered, That God accounts them diabolically uncleane, and calleth them by the name of ſin it ſelfe. as he calleth the high places of Aven, the ſin of Iſrael, Hoſea 10. 8. And if it be a ſin to hold reſtriction of places for the worſhip of God, then it is a ſin to uphold that reſtriction, by worſhipping God in thoſe places that are ſo reſtrained.

Its you that uphold diſtinction of places ſaid Mr. Goodwin, not we who meet in them; we hold all places alike.

Mr. Chidley anſwered again, we uphold not the diſtinction of places, but its you by your worſhipping, and pleading for thoſe places that are reſtrained by men.

Saith Mr. Goodwin, even now you would maintain diſtinction of places, and now you ſay, you uphold no diſtinction of places. Mr. Chidley ſaid, its true in a ſenſe, we uphold them not at all; but when they have ſet up Idolls Temples, we do hold that thoſe places are made diabolicall by them, becauſe wicked men have dedicated them to their Idols: no more doth God himſelf in the firſt place make ſuch diſtinctions of places as they make, but when once they have put a diabolicall uncleanneſſe upon the ſame, God declares then that they are uncleane, and calleth them ſin, and commandeth them to be pulled down, and ſo we diſtinguiſh not in the firſt place, but they make the places to be diſtinct diabolically by their dedication of thoſe places to Idols, and ſo the diſtinction is theirs, not ours. God himſelf made all things good at the firſt, and made no Devill, but made Angels, and they made themſelves Devills, ſo he made all things good, and made no Temple of Idolls, or Temple of Devills, ſo concerning men he profeſſeth, that he deſireth not the death of a ſixner, and why will ye die O Houſe of Iſrael? to ſhew them that their damnation is of themſelves, and yet elſewhere he ſheweth in reſpect of the evill of puniſhment, there is no evill in the City but he doth it; but they bring it upon themſelves in the firſt place. Therefore when they have made Idols, or Idols Temples, God owneth them not, but in his juſt judgement puniſheth them, and commands them to be demoliſhed; and we would have them to be deſtroyed, according to Gods Commands, and the example of King Joſiah, 2. Chron. 34. and other holymen of God, and therefore we are farre from upholding them: yet hold them the Temples of Devills, till they are pulled down. Its impoſſible ſaid Mr. Goodwin, to prove that all the Temples in the Land are dedicated to Idolls; but what if they were, is it unlawfull to worſhip in them therefore?

2. Theſe Steeple-houſes here, were not dedicated to Devills, but ſome to Chriſt, others of them are dedicated to God, himſelf, even to the Trinity, and moſt of them are dedicated to Saints, &c.

3. Chriſt came into the World to take away the diſtinction between places and places, and to make all places alike; and to deny this, tendeth to deny that Chriſt Jeſus is come into the world, and to eſtabliſh Jewiſhme.

4. When he came into the world, he diſſolved the uncleannes which God had made and put upon the Creatures, how much more then the uncleanneſſe which men had put on thoſe places of theirs built of ſtone.

5. By the ſame grounds we may refuſe to worſhip God in any part of the land: ſuppoſe this whole Kingdom be dedicated to St. George, as France to St. Dennis, & all the houſes dedicated all over the Kingdom, as once its ſaid to be wholly dedicated to St. George; muſt we not worſhip God in the Kingdom, becauſe of that.

6. In John the 4. its clear that Jeſus Chriſt ſpeaking to the woman of Samaria, ſheweth that all places are now alike, and as there is no place unto which the worſhip of God is bound, ſo there is no place, though an Idolls Temple, but that men may lawfully worſhip and ſerve God in; for when the woman queſtioned, ſaying v. 20. Our Fathers worſhipped in this Mountain, and ye ſay that in Jeruſalem is the place where men ought to worſhip. 21. Jeſus ſaid unto the woman, believe me the houre cometh, when ye ſhall neither in this Mountain, nor yet at Jeruſalem Worſhip the Father. As if he ſhould ſay, the houre is coming, that all places ſhall be left free for to worſhip in, both this mountain, and all others, not one place above another, but all alike, no place more holy, no place more unholy, though in the Mountain of Samaria, where was an Idolls Temple, and ſo takes away the diſtinction of places, which was under the Law. And the reaſon why the Idolls Temples were prohibited under the Law, was becauſe God had branded them then.

7. Upon the ſame ground that we muſt not worſhip in theſe places, becauſe dedicated by Idolaters, it is not lawful for men to worſhip in their houſes, becauſe Idolatry hath been committed theer.

Unto all which Mr. Chidley made anſwer as followeth.

1. It is not impoſſible to prove theſe Temples in the Land which the Idolators frequent to be dedicated to Idolls. And the way to try them is as a Thief or Murderer is tryed when he is arraigned before the Judge, if he confeſſe it with his own mouth, he is out of his own mouth condemned; even ſo, if the founders of theſe places, have confeſſed out of their own mouthes, that they have dedicated them to ſuch uſes, as the Records of the Realm teſtifie, the ſaid places are condemned, and ought to be executed, but for theſe things, I referre unto the records of the Realme, and unto thoſe plain and manifeſt proofes openly known formerly.

2. Whereas its alledged that they were not dedicated unto Devills, I ſay Temples dedicated to Idolls, are dedicated to Devils, and ſo the Apoſtle Paul ſpeaketh of the Idolls Sacrifices, when he ſaith to the Corinthians, 1 Cor. 10. 20. That the things which the Gentiles ſacrifice, they ſacrifice to Devills, and not to God, and I would not that they ſhould have fellowſhip with Devills; The Scripture calleth Idolls by the name of Devills, ſo the two calves which Jeroboam ſet up at Dan and Bethel were called Devills, for in ſetting up and worſhipping Idolls, men ſet up and worſhip Devills: therefore the Temples of Idolls are the Temples of Devills, (and not the Temples of God) no more are theſe.

And whereas it is ſaid ſome are dedicated to Chriſt, what is their Chriſt? their Chriſt is not he that ſtandeth at the right hand of God, but it is a peece of bread, which they fall down and worſhip, calling it their God, and eat it when they have done, O ridiculous horrible impiety, worſe then Jeroboams! and they do not ſay, its a figure of the body of Chriſt, and the wine a figure of the blood of Chriſt, but (ſay they) it is really the Body and Blood of Chriſt, and to this Chriſt do they dedicate their Temples which they call Chriſts Chruch.

And ſo their Trinity is not the eternall God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but their Trinity which they worſhip is the picture (painted upon a wall) of an old man (ſitting) in (that which they picture) for heaven, and there is the Picture of what they call the Son: and the Holy Ghoſt, they have alſo (painted out) in the likeneſſe of a Dove; this is their Trinity which they fall down and worſhip, and dedicate their Temples unto And admit that moſt of them were dedicated to Saints and Angels, it is to be conſidered, whether it be not Idolatry to dedicate any Places to Saints or Angels; but what are your Saints or Angels which they dedicate their Temples unto new Images which they make of them, that are no more like unto them, then my Pictur is like Mr. Goodwins, and they fall down before theſe Images, ſaying, St. Peter ſave me, St. Paul ſave me, &c. Theſe their impieties far exceed the Abominations of the Heathens, and ſo are their Idols Temples abominable places, and ought not to be worſhipped in, of the Saints. Beſides divers Temples in England are builded and dedicated to the Heathen Gods, as well as theſe are to the Chriſtian or rather Antichriſtian Gods.

Then Mr. Goodwin began to commend what he had read of the Papiſts works, concerning the nature and eſſence of God, ſaying, We ſhould not belie the Devill.

Mr. Chidley anſwered, do you think that Jeroboam and Jeſus was not acquainted with ſuch things? but the Papiſts impiety far exceedeth his, he made Calves in imitation of thoſe at Jeruſalem. Theſe make a breaden God, and eat it when they have done, beſides their other Abominations, by which they provoke the Lord to anger.

Therefore friends,Mr. Chidley applying his Speech to the People preſent. I deſire as you tender the ſalvation of your ſoules, to labour to know that iniquity is in a myſtery, and to diſcover the ſame; and alſo learn to know the myſtery of godlineſs, and how it differs from the myſtery of iniquity, though in ſome ſort the myſtery of iniquity reſembleth it, which maketh it the harder to be diſcerned, which cauſeth ſo many ſoules to be blinded to their condemnation; for God is not their God, but theſe are, theſe are their Gods, let them pretend what ever they will, they worſhip theſe Images.

3. Where its ſaid that Chriſt came into the world to take away the diſtinction of places and places, and to make all places alike, and that to deny this, tendeth to deny that Jeſus Chriſt is come into the World, and to eſtabliſh Jewiſhme.

I anſwer, That Chriſt came not into the world to take away the diabolicall uncleanneſs of Idols Temples: no more then of Idols themſelves: to affirm that he did, tendeth not onely to deny Chriſt, but alſo to acknowledge Antichriſt, and to eſtabliſh Idolatry. But he hath ſaid, Little Children, keep your ſelves from Idolls.

4. Whereas it is ſaid, that when he came he diſſolved the uncleanneſs which God had made, and put upon the Creatures; how much more then the uncleanneſs which men had put upon thoſe places, but of lime and ſtone? Mr. Chidley anſwered, that it followeth not: That becauſe Chriſt did take away the ceremonial uncleanneſs which was put upon the Creatures by God, that therefore he took away the diabolicall uncleanneſs which was put upon the Creatures by men, unleſs to demoliſh, and aboliſh them. As at his coming its ſaid, the Idols he will utterly aboliſh; Its a maxim in divinity, amongſt the Separation, that Chriſt dyed not for Temples made of lime and ſtone, but for his Church, which conſiſteth of living ſtones, he died not then for Idols Temples, no more then for Idols: and though I am verily perſwaded, that nothing is unclean of it ſelf, ſo it was in the time of the Law, but inſtitution cauſed the difference, and it is conſiderable, that in the time of the Law the Badgers The Originall hath it Tachas Skins, whether there be a defect in the common Tranſlation, its queſtionable, and it ſeemeth ſomwhat doubtfull. But that Idols Temples are hated by God is out of doubt. Skinnes were made uſe of to cover the Lord Sanctuary, but when did the Lord ever take that which belonged to any Idol, or Idols Temple, to cover his Sanctuary? never; it argueth therefore, that there is a great deal of difference between thoſe Creatures, that were ceremonially unclean, and thoſe diabolically unclean, and Chriſt might well take away the uncleannes of the one, but not of the other; we are bidden in the Goſpel, to keep our ſelves from Idols, and from the pollutions of Idols: Therefore Jeſus Christ hath not cleanſed them, though he hath made the ceremonial things common.

5. Whereas it was ſaid, by the ſame ground, as we refuſe to worſhip God in theſe dedicated places; we may refuſe to Worſhip God in any place of the Land.

Mr. Chidley anſwered, that it followeth not; for though ſome be Idols Temples, yet all the houſe are not.

I know ſaid he, that as the Heathen Nations had their great Gods beſides their petty Gods, ſo theſe Nations beſides there petty abominable Idols, they have for every Nation a God; as St. George for England, St. Patricke for Ireland, St. Denis for France, St. David for wales; and to that God St. George are Temples dedicated, which are called Saint Georges Churches: theſe are therefore Idoles Temples, and ought not to be worſhipped in, it cannot be proved ſo of all the houſes in the Land; but if any man wil prove his houſe to be an Idols Temple when the Parl. ſets forth an edict that all the Idols Temples in the Land ſhall be thrown down, thoſe ſhall be demoliſhed as well as the other. As King Hen: the 8th. did demoliſh divers of the Monaſteries.

King Henry 8th. did ſomwhat like to Jehu. Jehu though he deſtroyed the Houſe of Baal, yet the Idols Temples of Jereboam he deſtroyed not: ſo King Henry the 8th. deſtroyed divers of the great high places, but the leſſer high places he did not demoliſh; though they were all one in reſpect of pollution; ſave that which hath moſt deceit in it, is moſt to be hated.

And as for the Land it ſelfe, if it be poſſible to Dedicate the whole earth to St. George, then its poſſible to dedicate the whole world to an Idoll: but it is not in their power to dedicate it no more then to dedicate the Sun and Moon and Starrs &c. Now the Sun and Moone and Starrs have been worſhipped as Gods, yet were not to be demoliſhed; becauſe they were not their only propriety, all men have their propriety in them; and therefore though God commanded the Idols Temples, built upon Mountaines and Hills to be demoliſhed, yet he did not require the Mountaines and Hills to be pulled down, they were of Gods making, as the earth: the Idols Temples were of mens framing and erecting, And in this diſtinction about propriety the Parliament bears more out in their declaration, where they reaſon concerning the Propriety of the King & of the people. Moreover Lands are the Propriety of Poſterity even of the after-Generations which cannot properly be given to Idols as Temples that are of their making, no more then the Sun and Moone, which were worſhipped, and are common to all; for God cauſeth the Sun to ſhine upon the evill and upon the good, and upon the juſt and unjuſt. And concerning houſes, The Lord did command in Iſrael, that the high places ſhould be pull'd down, when he allowed the dwelling houſes to ſtand, except ſome houſe, upon whoſe roofes they burned incenſe to other Gods.

6. Concerning Chriſts ſpeeches to the woman of Samaria, nothing can be gathered thence for Idols Temples, true it is that it ſheweth that a time ſhould come, when the people ſhould not be limitted to this place or to that, and this makes againſt thoſe who limit men to places, and alſo againſt thoſe that uphold ſuch limitted places, by worſhipping in them. But that Chriſt alloweth men to worſhip in Idols Temples, and declareth them to be no more polluted, then any other place (which you affirm) cannot be gathered, neither by the expreſs words of Chriſt, nor neceſſary conſequence; for the matter in queſtion between Chriſt and the woman was, which was the place of worſhip, not about the places of worſhip, but the place of worſhip, whether it was at that Mountain, or at Jeruſalem. Our Fathers (ſaith he) worſhipped in this Mountain, and ye ſay that in Jeruſalem is the place of worſhip. He doth not ſay [a] place, but [the] place, whereby it appeareth that her queſtion was about [the] place, where men ought to worſhip; whether it was at that Mountain, or at Jeruſalem, for then God bound his publick worſhip to one place.

Now Jeſus ſaid unto her, Woman, believe me the houre cometh when ye ſhall neither in this Mountain, nor yet at Jeruſalem worſhip the Father. Now Chriſt by this ſpeech doth not allow them to worſhip in Idols Temples though in a ſence, all places are free to do it, all places of Gods Creation; but places of mens limitation, erection, and dedication to Idols, ought to be pulled down; and this by way of application, may appeare in the 22. and 23. verſes of the ſame Chapter, where Chriſt dealeth plainly with her ſaying, Ye worſhip ye know not what, we know what we worſhip, for ſalvation is of Jewes: but the houre cometh and now is, when the true worſhippers ſhall worſhip the Father in ſpirit and in truth; for the Father ſeeketh ſuch to worſhip him: As if he ſhould ſay, think not that though the time be, that the true worſhippers ſhall not be limitted to worſhip in a place, that therefore this is any juſtification of you Samaritans who worſhip in Idols Temples, and worſhip Idols. Ye worſhip you know not what: we know (ſaith he) what we worſhip, and alleageth this reaſon, for ſalvation is of the Jewes; intimating, that ſalvation was not of the Samaritans, who worſhipped Idols, and in Idols Temples; ſo that if they would have ſalvation, they muſt turn from ſuch vanities: Therefore he would have them to worſhip the Father in ſpirit and truth. Now the ſpirit and truth are diſtinct, though all one in purity. The ſpirit is the ſpirit of God, and the truth is the word of God, as it is written, Thy word is truth, now the word of truth doth ſpeak againſt Idols Temples, and therefore, we are not to worſhip God in Idols Temples, but in ſpirit and truth: The ſpirit of God is a pure ſpirit, but Idols and Idols Temples, are unclean and diabolicall, and contrary to the nature of the ſpirit, the Father ſeeketh ſuch to worſhip him, that worſhip him in ſpirit and truth: and therefore if you would be found of him, worſhip not in Idols Temples, but in ſpirit and truth. And by all this Scripture, here is not the leaſt colour for; but rather againſt Idols Temples. Chriſt never ſhed his blood to uphold and purge Idols Temples, from their diabolicall uncleanneſſe, which uncleanneſs proceeded not from any inſtitution of God, but from the Devill.

And whereas it is ſaid, that the reaſon why Idols Temples were prohibited under the Law, was becauſe God had branded them then.

Mr. Chidley anſwered, That they made them Idols Temples, God branded them, and to this day, that brand is not taken off them, but remaineth ſtill upon them: The blood of Chriſt hath not cleanſed them, the brand is ſtill upon them, as well as upon the Idols themſelves to this day: Therefore as the Saints are to keep themſelves from Idols, ſo are they to keep themſelves from worſhipping in Idols Temples, becauſe the brand is upon them.

Neither do we ſay that a place is an Idols Temple, becauſe Idolatry is committed there, as if a Papiſt ſhould croſſe himſelf, and fall down and worſhip in his Idolatrous manner, in this or in another mans houſe, this doth not make it an Idols Temple; but if he build and dedicate, and conſecrate a place of his own proper goods, to an Idole: this is now an Idolatrous place, and God in the time of the Law commanded Iſrael to pluck down all the Idolatrous high places, but not all the houſes, therefore the houſes may ſtand, when the high places are quite pluckt down.

Then Mr. Goodwin returned to his former ſence, of that place in the 4. of John, but it was denied that Jeſus Chriſt, doth in the leaſt allow or countenance the woman of Samaria, or any Samaritan or any Idolater elſe, or any man whatever, to worſhip in Idols Temples. Then Mr. Goodwin to back it, returned to the firſt Scripture in 1 Tim. 2. 10. concerning the word (every where) but it was told him, that that was reſtrained by God himſelf, and that by every where is meant, all places of Gods Creation, but not of Mans limitation and dedication to an Idol, and therefore not the Temple of Samaria, as he alleaged, from John 4. which ſaith, The houre cometh; when ye ſhall neither at this Mountain, nor yet at Jeruſalem worſhip the Father.

Then ſaid Mr. Goodwin, it is very clear from Iohn 4. Chriſts ſpeech to the woman of Samaria, that he came to looſe the bands wherewith men were bound, to come to worſhip at the Temple of Jeruſalem, and in ſaying, neither at this Mountain, nor yet at Jeruſalem, he doth not juſtifie the worſhip in the one place more then the other.

And if by ſpirit you meane the directions of the ſpirit, its true; and by the ſpirit may be meant the ſpirit of a man, as Paul ſaith, whom I ſerve in my ſpirit.

To which Mr. Chidley anſwered. That Chriſt came to looſe the bands which tyed men to the Temple of Jeruſalem, is true; but it followeth not therefore, that he hath left us free to worſhip in Idols Temples: he juſtified the worſhip in his own Temple; but not in Idols Temples; neither doth the ſaying of Chriſt import any ſuch thing; Chriſt ſaith afterwards to the woman, ye worſhip ye know not what, as if he ſhould ſay, do not think that I do in the leaſt juſtifie your practiſes, or your abominable Idols, or Idols Temples, becauſe I have ſaid, neither at this Mountain, nor at Jeruſalem ſhall ye worſhip the Father; but I would have you know, that ye Samaritans worſhip ye know not what, we [Jewes] know what we worſhip, for ſalvation is not of you Samaritans, but of the Jewes, and Chriſt ſheweth that the Father muſt be worſhipped in ſpirit and truth: now there is not the leaſt word of truth to juſtifie worſhipping in the Idols Temples.

And concerning the Allegations, that by the ſpirit is to be underſtood the directions thereof, and is meant of a Mans ſpirit, and the truth therein, as Paul ſaid, God whom I ſerve in my ſpirit.

Mr. Chidley anſwered, I grant that we are to ſerve God by the directions of his ſpirit, and that is by his holy word, which directeth us not to worſhip in Idols Temples, but ſheweth that they are ſin, and to be quite pulled down: And though Paul ſaith, he ſerved God in his ſpirit, it may be taken, that he ſerved God who was in his ſpirit, for God is ſaid to dwell in the Saints by his ſpirit, and the Saints are exhorted to pray in the Holy Ghoſt which is the ſpirit of God, who directeth us by his word of truth, to which we are left for direction, which doth not allow any to worſhip him in Idols Temples, and therefore this place in John 4. 22. 23. by application maketh againſt them. That Scripture ſaith Mr. Goodwin, doth not include by truth the circumſtance of place.

But it doth (ſaid Mr. Chidley) for the word is truth, which witneſſeth againſt the Idols Temples, and layeth that brand upon them, which the blood of Chriſt taketh not off.

And whereas it is called a Circumſtance, it is more, its a material ſubſtance; ſeeing Gods Commands are ſo directly againſt Idols Temples, I cannot believe (ſaid Mr. Goodwin) that ſtones are capable of pollution, there's no place holy now; and therefore there is no place unholy or polluted, but as all Creatures are cleane, ſo are all places.

Mr. Chidley replyed, why may not ſtones be capable of pollution, as well as a peece of bread? which bread and wine conſecrated by an Idolatrous Prieſt, is the Table of Devils; and the Cup, the Cup of Devils: as contrariwiſe the bread and wine given in the Lords Supper, is the Table and Cup of the Lord. And I deſire you Sir, to take what hath been ſpoken into conſideration, & before you depart, Mr. Goodwin was about to depart now. take along with you this diſtinction which I once propoſed to divers honeſt men, Mr. Burroughs; Mr. Burton, M. Sal • marſh, M. Knowles, and Dr. Holmes, and divers others; for in pleading about the high places, they all unanimouſly concurr'd, that now in the time of the Goſpel, there is nothing holy nor unholy; and this they ſaid was Goſpel-liberty, & that to affirm contrary to this, was a taking away of the liberty of the Goſpel. And they were ſo enamoured with this point, that they repeated it divers times, which when I heard, I ſtood up and ſaid, whereas it hath bin concluded, that there is nothing holy nor unholy, and that to affirm there is, is to takeaway the liberty of the Goſpel; I ſay, that now in the time of the Goſpel, ſome things are holy, even the bread of the Lord, and the Cup of the Lord, other things are unholy, even the table & cup of Devils; & other things are meerly common; & this Divinity I learned of the Apoſtle Paul, who was not inferiour to the chiefeſt Apoſtles, who when he ſpeaketh to the Corinthians, calleth the bread and wine in the Lords Supper, the Table and Cup of the Lord, which none were to eat and drink but holy perſons. That meat and drink which was in the Idols Temples, he calleth it the Table and Cup of Devills, and there is that which is meerely naturall and common, which words of mine they took into conſideration, and I think Mr. Burroughs had more ſight in it, then any of them all; and ſo likewiſe, I deſire you, to take theſe things into conſideration. And whereas it is objected, that becauſe there is no place holy now, that therefore there is no place unholy. Sir, it will not follow, that becauſe there is no material place, which is the Temple of the Lord, as the Temple of Jeruſalem in former time, that therefore there is no Idols Temple, or Temple of Devills; for then by that account, becauſe there is no fleſh of Beaſts now to be offered, according to the ſaying, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldeſt not, therefore the fleſh in the Idols Temple is not uncleane; but the Apoſtle calleth it The Table of Devills, as really as he calleth the holy bread and wine, the Table and Cup of the Lord: Therefore as Sacrifices of Beaſts, are not now holy, yet the meat ſacrificed to Idols, is the Table of Devills; ſo though there is no Temple holy now, yet the Temples dedicated to Idols, are the Temples of Idols, the Temples of Devills.

I do believe Sir, that there is nothing unclean of itſelf, nor holy of it ſelf, but inſtitution whether divine or diabolicall, maketh the ſame otherwiſe then it was before, though it is in a manner common, as David ſaid of the ſhew-bread, and ſo it hath been under the Law, and ſo it is under the Goſpel.

FINIS.