WHereas there hath bin in Fraūce these many yeares, great strife and contentiō for religiō, y^e which hath caused muche cruelty to be exer­cised towardes ma­ny: at the last, when the authors thereof perceiued, that their punishmentes little profited, and that thintentes of such as were Godly, were therby neyther alte­red nor diminished, they wer compelled to assaye more gentle meanes, farr vn­lyke the first. Therefore in the yeare of our Lord God. 1561. Charles, the ninth of that name, a Prynce of synguler to­wardlynesse, and of great hope, then reigning, the peres of the realme myn­ded tymely to withstande the peril like­ly to ensue in so great a discorde. For now, their number encreasing whyche [Page] professed the gospel, many yll disposed persons began newe tumultes, and to moue seditiō. Yea and many opēly put thēselues in armour. Some of y^• realme would haue the gospel opēly preached. Some other, would haue that doctrine as newe, and hurtfull, to be condemned and abolished.

The first sort, desyrous of freedom, and quietnesse, complayned of their sō ­dry banishments, murthers, imprison­ments, and their most miserable estate: wishing the shame and reproche, wher­with there by they were stayned at laste to be purged. The others cōtrarywise, wishe their punishmentes double, the sharpenesse of thesame encreased, and all their goods committed to fyre and sweard. And, to proue their good wyll by their dedes, they brake into their cō ­gregatiōs whē they could, they robbed their howsen, and finally exercised all kynde of cruelty towardes thē. Which vnlawful & vnbrydeled lust, when those that professed the Ghospel, perceiued [...] they did more strōgly prepare to with­stande them. And many tymes, wyth armed force resisted their inuasyons. [Page] And y^u greater deceites they vnderstode were layed for them, the greater trou­bles, and persecutions that they felt: the greater alwayes grew their courages, thinking that they ought to withstande the furious rage of their enemies, with patience, and stoute sufferaunce. They all agreed it best, to abstayne frō force. But neuetthelesse, they meant to pro­uyde, that their feare & patience, should not encrease the furye and insolence of their foes. First of al therfore, wheras, their number was so great, that the cō ­gregation could not assemble wythin their priuate howsen: they determined to come together openly, and to haue their sermons and readinges in the o­pen congregations. Partly, bicause ne­cessitie enforced them therto, and part­ly to cleare themselues of such slaunde­rous reports as already, their impudēt aduersaries had raysed of them. For it was openly bruted, that most haynous and detestable crimes, were committed in their assemblies. Therefore, they came into the yardes and open places: some in their priuate howsen, and some in the opē cities. Few toke y^e churches. [Page] For, least any thing should be rashly or vnaduisedly done, or leasr their aduer­saryes myght haue any couloure, to ac­cuse them of rebellion: the ministers & pastours of euery Churche (as much as they myght) kept the multitude in awe and order yet neuerthelesse, hereof rose sondry tumultes, and facrions of their aduersaryes. Which notwithstanding could not staye or hynder their open metinges. Hereof rose sondry troubles and great suspition, and feare of rebel­lion. And, thys caused at the last, that by the commaundement of the kyng and hys councell, it was openly proclaimed that none shuld iniury or molest other, for any matter of religiō. After thys al­so was published an other, whereby, as wel the Bishops, as other nobles of the realme, were commaunded to repayre to Poyssye, to deliberate, both for the leauyeng of a tribute, to discharge the kynges dettes to foren Princes, but chefely for y^e reforming of the estate of religion. Therby also, the kinges peace and safecondwite was graunted to all suche as woulde come thither, freely to propose, whatsoeuer perteined to true [Page] religion; and the establishing of cōcord. And it was commaunded vnder payne of death, that no mā should trouble thē cōming together, assembled, or depar­ting but that quietly, and freely, they myght mete together, without trouble or veracion. Shortly after, by an Act of parliamēt, in y^t which the Bishops and other nobles of the realme, wer not on­ly parties, but rulers: it was decreed vnder paine of death, that hereafter, none should make any assemblies, ey­ther for preaching, or for ministring of the Sacramentes, or for mariage: o­ther where, than in the Churches, or af­ter any other sorte, than the olde and ac­customed maner. And furthermore, that wythin a certayne space, the my­nisters that professed the Ghospell, should departe the realme of Fraunce. Hereof rose gret trouble. Bicause now their liberty of comming together takē away, it was likely, to be greatly preiu­dicial to the tryall of the whole matter. After thys the nobles met at Poyssye. Shortly after, the ministers of the Gos­pel, came to the court to the king, which then lay at Saynt Germans, nye to [Page] Poyssye. Thither somwhat afore; were come certayne chosen men, sent by the refourmed churches, out of the .xii. pro­uinces, to aduaunce religiō. These de­liberating with the others, determined to offer vp to the king, a boke, in maner of a supplication, wherby they woulde uponsome meanes, to disputation and conference. Therewithal also, was ge­uen vp, the cōfession of that faith, which they professed thēselues ready to main­tayne, and defende. Of that boke, the thiefe poyntes were fowre.

First, that no Bishops, nor others of the ecclesiasticall orders, should vsurpe the authoriti of Iudges ouer vs. Foras­much as it behoueth rather, that they themselues shoulde pleade their owne cause, and stande in triall of reforma­tion.

Secondly, that the king, Queene, and nobilitie, should rule the whole do­inges: leaste any trouble might arsie. So that, without contention and strif, all matters myght be handeled and de­creed.

Thirdly, that al controuersies might be tryed by the worde of god: whereupō [Page] onely, all our fayth and religion ought to be grounded.

Fourthly, that certayne notaryes and Scribes, should be chosē of eyther part which might faithfully register, what­soeuer wer done or decreed. Whose no­tes should be of no credite, vnlesse they were allowed, and confessed of either part. These requestes no man misliked And the kyng answered, that he would take thaduise of his councell, and by his Chauncelour shortly make them an answere: yet thesame was long defer­red. Bicause the matter was cōmuni­cated with the Bishops, without whose councel, or knowledge to do any thing, it semed not mete. For, not only for thys matter of religion, had the kyng assembled them, but also, for the leauy­eng of mony, to discharge hys dettes. They waxing proude wyth thys con­fydence, that the kyng semed to nede their aide: assured themselues, of the obtayning of any thyng agaynste vs, nothyng doutyng the assured conquest of Ladye money. Furthermore, they tryfled and prolonged the tyme, [Page] seeking al occasions, to auoide our con­ference and disputation. For they sayd we were already condemned and that they might not dispute with heretykes. These, and such other like, their accustomed stayes, they began to blase, whiche neuerthelesse, afterwardes they denied. Boasting, that they wer ready to he are vs. For they were ashamed openly to refuse our conference, sith by their own consent, we were sent for thither. But they fully perswaded themselues, that our courage, or constancy would not be such, as to hasard our lyues, for y^t speach of our wordes. Duryng this tyme oure nūber increased. For out of euery pro­uince, not in Fraunce onely, but also, from al the realmes adioyning, as ma­ny, as might, without the hynderaunce of their churches, drew thither. Wher­fore at y^e last we chose certayne to y^e nū ­ber of .xii. whose names wer these. Au­gustine Malorat, Fraūces of Paulon, Iohn Remonde Merlin, Iohn Mallet, Fraūces Morel, Nicolas Tolye, Theo­dore Beza, Claudius Bessierus, Iohn Bodwine, Iohn Virell. Iohn a Tures. Nicolas Gallasius. To these, Iohn Soma [Page] adioyned himself, which openly re­nounced papacy, and subscribed to the doctrine & Discipline of our Churches. Afterwardes came also, the reuerende father in God, Peter Martir, sent for from Tigur. Whose comming was scarsely acceptable to our aduersaryes, aswell for his singular learning, as al­so for the maiesty, and authority, which both his Godlinesse, and reuerende age haue gotten hym.

What in thys meane tyme, was don of the Bishops, whiche were assembled at Poyssye, I thynke not good to ouer­passe. For, least any man should thynke they were ydle, I wyl shew wyth what grauer matters they were letted, so y^t they could not presētly heare vs. These questions they disputed amōges them­selues.

What ought to be prescribed vnto Bi­shops. Of y^e dignities of cathedral chur­ches. Of the Canonicalls, & their exem­ptions. Of Curates, & their institutiō, either by presentation, or ordinary col­latiē. Of assigning them a Canonicall portion. Of y^e lesser (that is to wyt) the ignoraunt chaplens, and their vnrea­sonable [Page] number. Of the reformation of monasteryes. What should be done of cōmendes. Of the number of benefices, and their incompatibility. What waye hereafter they myght prouide, for chur­ches and Monasteryes in time of vaca­tion. Whether, there myght be any re­medy foūde, for so great cōtronersies as dayly ryse of benefyces? Of the excom­municatyō & censure of y^e Churche and such lyke. With y^e which hard & weigh­ty questions, y^e Bishops occupyed, had so litle leasure, y^e they could scarse findeany tyme, to employ in the hearyng of vs. What meanes they sought in y^e meane time to preiudice our matter, it is not to the purpose here to tel, I wil shew onely this one. Which some thought in ma­ner y^e prologe, or preamble, of the confe­rence y^t should ensue: y^t hereby mē may know, what credite they ought to geue to such rumors as our aduersariesfalse­ly spred vpon vs. For, immediatly vpon the departure of Theodore Beza, a ru­moure ranne, that he being conuycted by the Cardinall of Lorayne, was tur­ned to the Catholikes (as they cal them­selues) and agreed with them, as cou­cerning [Page] the Sacrament (as they terme it) of y^e aulter. Of thys tale, what was y^e couloure and occasion? I wyll shortly shew. Whē Beza, the day after hys co­myng, came to the Queenes presence, in the palayce of the kyng of Nauarre, by whom he was sent for, there beeyng presēt, the Prince of Conde, the Cardi­nal of Borbon & diuers other, the Car­dinall of Lorayne emonges others be­ing there, began to entreate and exhort him, to encline to peace and concorde, saying, that as being absēt he had trou­bled the kyngdom, so now being presēt he might wel appease it. Hereto, Beza, first shewing, what good wil he had al­wayes borne, to the kyng and hys na­tiue countrey: aunswered, that he was not of power, to trouble so great a kingdome but muche lesse of purpose to do it, whiche mighte well appeare by hys wrytinges, hopyng also, that they should perceyue greater proofe therof, in hys talke. Then the Queene de­maunded of hys wrytynges. Wher­uppon, the Cardenall takynge oc­casyon, sayd that he hadde a booke, publyshed in the name of Beza, in the [Page] which he red one horrible incōuensēce, Namely, that Christ, is now so to be lought in his Supper, as afore he tooke vpon hym our flesh, and was borne of y^e virgin. I haue heard also, (quoth he) that you wrote in a certaine booke, that Christ, is in such sort in his Supper, as he is in a dunghil. With these sayings, al those that were present were greatly offended. But Beza sayd. As for the bo­kes, if they were present, I myght more certainly aunswere, whether they were myne or no. But as to the first sentence it may wel seeme vnreasonable as it is rehearsed of my Lorde Cardinal. But well vnderstode, and those thinges con­sidered, which go afore it, and folowe it, we shal fynde it most true. But y^e last is not onely shamefull, but wycked also, and blasphemous. And (I am well assu­red) can neyther be founde in my wry­tings, nor any others of our part. Ouer passing therfore this last, (in the which, whosoeuer was the author of it, he vtte­red to playne and manifest a lie,) the Cardinall returned to the first. It were very hard (quod he) that we should haue no more than those olde fathers. Fur­thermore, [Page] how could Christes fleshe be geuē, afore it was? Then Beza asked of the Cardinall, whether from the begin­ning of the world, there had ben any Church? he graunted. Also, was not y^e same Churche, a Church by him, which is the Mediatour betwixt God and mā? There to he agreed also. Is not Christ, the true God and mā, thesame Media­tour? He confessed that also. Then (quod Beza) the communicating of the fayth­ful with Christ, is not to be limited to y^• tyme, in the which in dede, he ioined his diuinity to our nature. For, that which was not as yet, by y^e course of nature, was alwayes by power and effect pre­sent to the eyes of our fayth. Is it not sayd, that Abrahā saw the day of Christ, and reioyced? Also Paule sayeth, y^t our fathers, did eate the selfe same spiritual foode, and dronke the selfe same spiritu­all drynke, out of the spirituall rocke which folowed them, which rocke was Christ. Hereunto the Cardinall agreed also and adioyned here to that which is written in the Apocalips, that the lamb was slayne from the beginning of the world. Then Beza entreated somwhat [Page] of the difference of the olde and newe Testament. From thys question (as it haps many tymes) they fel into the rea­soning, of the presence of the body of Christ in his supper. We do not agree (quoth the Cardinal) in the exposition of these wordes of our Lord. This is my body. I graunt (quoth Beza) and I am sory, y^t we agree no better. But I had rather plainly to graunt it, than to dis­semble it. I (quoth the Cardinall) doe teache the children of my diocesse, when they are asked, what is the bread of the body of our Lord, to answere that it is the body of Christ. Do ye disalow that? No (quoth Beza). For it is the sayinge of Christ. But, y^e question is, after what sort, the bread is called y^e body of Christ. For, of those thinges, which are sayd to be, all are not sayd to be after one selfe same sort. And there with, he touched somewhat of the Sacramental maners of speaking. Wherin the Cardinal did not much repugne against the sayings of Beza, onely against that place (but the rocke is Christ) whiche Beza cyted, he set this. The worde was made flesh. But he was sone made to leaue y^t hold. [Page] For y^• which is spokē, of a natural and essential cōmunion, far differeth from the Sacramental speach. At y^e laste this questiō (quoth Beza) cōsisteth in foure pointes. The first, is of y^e signes. The o­ther, of y^e thing signifyed. The third, of y^• cōioyning of y^e signes with y^e thing signi­fied. The fourth, of the participation of the signes, & y^• thinges signified by thē. As to y^e first (quoth he) we do not agree, that in y^e lords Supper, you do appoint onely accidentes in stede of the signes. Wheras we continue there, y^e nature of bread & wine as both the nature of Sa­craments requires, & also y^e holy Scrip­ture teacheth. Here, the Cardinal inter­rupting hym. Truly (quoth he) I thinke my selfe able enough, to defende tran­substantiation. But, I thynk, y^e deuines might well inough haue left out y^• doc­trine. Neyther would I, y^• vpō y^t poynt, should rest any diursiō of our churches. As to y^e second poynt, (quoth Beza), we do not only say, y^• y^e meryte of Christes death & passion is signified vnto vs, by y^e signes of bread and wyne. But also, the true body, that was crucified for vs, and the true bloud which was shed for vs [Page] and to be short, that Christ himself, true God and man, is signified vnto vs, by these visible signes, that oure myndes and vnderstanding may by fayth spiri­tually beholde hym in heauen, where he now ascēded, resteth. And so, haue y^e fruition of all hys goods and giftes to lyfe euerlastyng. And that, assone, and as surely, as we see, take, eate & drynke, those corporall and visible signes. The Cardinall agreed hereto, signifying y^t he was glad to vnderstande it. For that he had heard afore that we taught other wyse. As to the thirde (quoth Beza) we graunt, that there is great difference betwixt common water; & it wherwith we are washed in Baptisme, betwixt breade and wyne whyche we vse com­monly, and those which we receiue in the Lordes Supper. For the water in Baptisme, and bread and wyne in the Lordes Supper, be Sacramentes: that is to wyt, visible signes and testimonies of the body and bloud of our Lord. But this chaūge, we do not admit, in the na­ture of the elementes. But in thys, that they are seuered to an other vse, farre distant from it, whereto naturally they [Page] be appoynted. For whereas naturally, they serue, to the nourishment of the bodye, when they become Sacramēts, they represent that, whiche spiritually fedeth and refresheth our soules. Fur­thermore, this sacramentall chaunge, we attrybute, neither to the Vertue of the worde, whiche any mā pronoun­ceth, neither, to his purpose & intention (as they terme it) but to the power and vertue of god. Whose wil & ordināce, is declared to vs by his worde. In that respect therefore, that the thinge signi­fyed, is offered and geuen vnto vs of the lord, and that, as trulye, as the sig­nes therof are geuen vnto vs, in that respect, and no other, we acknowledge the coniunction of the signes, which y^• thinge signified. And so also we saye, that y^e body and bloud of Iesus Christ, in that they are truly geuen vs, and cōmunicated vnto vs, to be trulye pre­sent also, in the vse of his supper, nei­ther yet is it therfore to be sayde, that that body, is ether vnder the bread, or in the bread, or with the bread, or in any other place, than in heauen, to the whiche Christ ascended. Wher accor­dīg [Page] to his humane nature he remaineth till he shal come to iudge the quick and the dead. Then the Cardinall, once a­gayne affirmynge, that he forced not Transubstanciatiō, sayde: that Christ in deede, was to be sought in heauen. Neuertheles he mixed therwith, some­what of the locall presence of Christe & the opinyon of certayn Germans ther­of. And so confounded these matters together, that it well appeared, he had not bin muche occupied in that article. Which, he him selfe witnessed also, sai­yng that he had spente the most part of his tyme, in other businesse. I graunt ye (quoth Beza) that we agre not w^t certayne of the Germans, in this third article. But in this one thing, the grace of god is fauorable to vs al a like, that w^t on consēt, we condemne. Transub­stanciation, and whatsoeuer dependeth thereupon. And all alyke graunt and confesse, the liuely communicating, of the body and bloude of Christ. Graūt ye then (quoth the Cardinall) that we in y^e supper, do truely, and substanciallye Cōmunicate, with the body & bloude of Iesus Christ? y^t remainth (quoth Beza) [Page] For the fourth poynte: We do saye in effect. That the visible sygnes, which naturally are eaten and dronken, are touched with our sences, but the thing signified, namely, the body and bloud of Christ, truely, and w^tout any coloure or deceit, is offered to al men, but can not otherwyse be receiued but spiritually, & by fayth. For, thei be not receiued, with one hande or mouth. Yet neuerthelesse, thys communicating is so certayn, that it, which we see wyth our eyes, & touche with our hāds, cā be no surer. Although the misery of this cōmuniō, & of the vertue of the holy ghost, nether cā by sence be perceiued, nor by the cōpasse of oure wit comprehended. The Cardinall affirmed that he was satysfied wyth these reasons. And that openly testi­fyed to the Queene. Geuing good hope that there shoulde ensue some happye ende of thys conference. He entreated also, and desyred Beza, that he would oftener talke and conferre with him, of these matters, that so at last, they myghte make some waye to peace and concorde. So, those that heard thereof, were in greate hope, of [Page] better successe. But therewithall, some came to the Cardinall, willing hym to cōtinue in hys first purpose, easely sus­pecting y^t which afterwards happened. For, the next day, there was a rumour spred, not only in the court, but also in Poyssye, yea and afterwardes, caryed into farre countreyes, that at the fyrste meting, Beza was ouercome, & cōuer­ted by the Cardinals labour. And to cō ­clude, that we had now taken the foyle. These, and diuers suche other tales, (as custome is,) were forged & spred abrode, which, although they might be cōfuted with the witnesse of many credible per­sons, yet now at last, in tyme prouing themselues lyes, to their great shame, y^• first fayned them, are vanished awaye. Whē as the tyme was thus prolonged and no answer made vnto vs, we came to the nobles of the realm, and earnest­ly desyred thē, that we myght be heard: Least in ouerpasting so mete an occasi­on, those, by whō we were sent, mighte seme to sustayne any shame or reproch. But chiefely we required, that those cō ­ditions, which we first proposed, might be obserued, and that we myght not o­therwise [Page] couple w^t our aduersaries. But chefely, y^t they might not be their owne iudges in the matter. And y^t whatsoeuer shuld happen, might hereafter appeare more certain, we required an answere in writing. Which whē it was denied vnto vs, we came to y^e Queene, desiring and beseching her, to graunt to our re­questes. There wer present, the king of Nauarre, y^e prince of Conde, y^e admiral, the Chancelour. The Queene answe­red, y^t y^e Bishops shuld in no wise be our iudges. And y^t, such thigs as wer done, one of the kinges secretaries, shuld re­gister (which was one of thē, whō, we call secrytaryes of cōmaundements.) And if we would our selues pen our disputatiōs, we might lawfully doe it. And whereas in decreeing of doctrines we would groūde only vpō y^e authority of y^e Scriptures, y^t we might opēly proteste. And y^t the kyng, which had takē vs into hys tuycyō, would be present at it, with the rest of y^e nobility. But she cōmaun­ded vs, to do al thyngs moderatly and wisely, respecting onely the glory of God, of the aduauncement wherof, she thought vs desyrous. But that these [Page] thinges should be geuē vnto vs in wri­tinge, she thougth it was not expedi­ente for many causes. Neuerthelesse, she promised we shoulde haue it, if we had nede thereof. Willing vs to cre­dite no lesse her worde thā her writing. Forasmuche as, if she meante to de­ceiue vs, her writing could not let her. Immediatly after our departure, came the doctours of the Sorbonistes, de­siring the Quene, that she woulde not vouchsafe to heare vs. But if she were determined to heare vs, at the least, that she should not suffer the kyng to be present therat. For that, it was great perill (as they sayd) least the king in this his tender age, shoulde be sea­soned wyth vnsounde doctrine, from the which afterwardes he should hard­ly be withdrawen. And that we, for­asmuchas we were already condem­ned of heresye, were not to be heard at all. Then the Queene aunswered, that she woulde doe nothing withoute her councell. Whereby they well perceiued, that the matter was not likely to passe, as they wished.

Wherefore, thoughe all oure de­maundes [Page] were not graunted, yet ne­uerthelesse, bicause the aunswere of the Queene, was tollerable, we thoughte it good, to take the occasi­on, leaste we myghte seeme to de­tracte the conference. The next day therefore whiche was the nynth of September, we came to Poyssye, to the cloyster of Nunnes, where the king was, with his brother the Duke of Or­leaunce, the Quene, the king & Queene of Nauarre, and the rest of the nobles, with the whole councel, there were pre­sent also, the Cardinalls, and Bishops, accompaynyed with a great number of ecclesiast call persons. We ministers, to the number of xii. and .xx. of those, whom other churches had sente, came in afore them. But, least the people of the towne shoulde make any riot vpon vs, the kinges garde brought vs from our lodginges to the Nunnery. As­soone as we came to the kinges pre­sence, and wer commaunded to speake, Theodore Beza, (which by y^e vniuersal cōsent was appoynted therto) made an oratyon: in the which, thankyng God and the Kynge, that nowe at the [Page] last, our cause shuld he heard, he shewed the causes for the which, we had bin lōg before expelled, and vniustly condēned. Furthermore, in what articles, we a­greed with our aduersaries, in what others, and how we did differ. And what was the meane, to appease all troubles and reforme religion. Then in fewe wordes, he shewed the doctrine of oure fayth and Sacramentes, and bryefelye touched the chiefe errours, that haue crept into religion, whiche whyles he handeled grauely moderatly, and wyth synguler eloquence, he was heard very diligently of al men, except when, he treated of the presence of the body of Christ in his supper. For, when he she­wed, how, we are made partakers of hym in hys Supper, and taught the­same to be done, by the power of the ho­ly ghost, which conioyneth & knitteth, thinges most farre distance in nature: and that Christ, could no otherwyse be receiued, than by fayth: and that he ne­deth not to descende from heauen, that we may communicate of hys body: and that he is not enclosed in the bread, but remayneth in heauen, till he shall come [Page] to iudge the world: or rather that, as to that corporall presence, he is as far ab­sent from the bread, as the hyest heauē, is distant from the lowest earth: these thinges I say. Whiles he handeled, so­denly, y^e Bishops begā opēly to grudge and murmure. Crying that he spake shameful blasphemy. Some hissed, some rose, as though they would depart. And the Cardinall of Turon opēly desired, that either he might be licenced to de­part, or we put to silēce. They wer sory that afore they could get no occasion, to interrupte our oration. And therfore, it pricked them at the heartes, y^t we were so attentiuely heard. Neither is it to be doubted, but ether they would haue de­parted, or els violently haue runn vpon vs, vnlesse the very presēce, and autho­rity of the king, had represt their fury. Silence commaunded a new, Beza, gently desired them, that they woulde quietly heare what remained. So it myghte happen, that the matter en­ded, they themselues mighte be satisfi­ed. So he had licence to conclude. And not onely to declare the resydue of those thinges, that pertayne to the ful­ler [Page] declaratyon of Chrystes presence in his supper: but also all such thinges, as concerne the Ecclesiasticall disci­plyne, and the dutye and authoritye of officers. This oratyon ended, the Cardinall of Turon perced with an­ger, tremblyng, and freating, coun­sayled the king to geue no credite to our wordes, nor swarue from the re­ligion of his auncesters. Where­in that he mighte obtaine his desire, he prayed the gloryous virgine Ma­rye, and the blessed Saintes. Then he desired, to haue a copy of our orati­on, and a daye appointed to aunswere it. Saying, that he hoped, that oure argumentes, and reasons shoulde bee so fully satisfied, that if any parte there­of stucke in the kinges minde, it shoulde thereby, easely be rooted oute. The Bi­shoppes tooke aduysemente with the deuines and Canonistes, howe they mighte aunswere oure oration. But then the Cardinall of Lorayne, braste out into these wordes. Would to God, that eyther he had ben dumme, or we deaffe.

The matter long weyed emōges them, [Page] they concluded, not to aunswere all the poyntes of our oration, (either bicause they would not, or could not) but .ii. on­ly. First, that whiche we sayde of the Churche and then that which was spo­ken of the Lordes Supper. Afterwards they desired, that they might geue vp a common confessiō, in wryting, subscri­bed by euery of them. Which if the mi­nisters would not allow, they myghte then procede with a solemne decree, a­gainst them. And so take away the dis­putation. From the whych polecy, the wysest, and grauest men abhorring, sharpely withstode their purpose. In the meane tyme, we determined, to make supplication to the kyng, that he woulde not suffer the conference thus to be broken of, nor the Bishops to be iud­ges in their own cause. Saying, that we had not yet shewed, the proofes of oure opynion, but onely symplye and playnly, hadde drawen the articles of oure fayth which afterwardes, myght bee more largely handeled, and pro­ued with the testimonies of the Scrip­ture, if he did suffer the Bishops, to proocede so at theyr owne wyll [Page] and decree their own cause, it woulde come to passe, that both he should be de­ceiued, of hys good expectatiō, and also no remedy hereafter founde for suche troubles as do dayly growe. This sup­plication was geuen to the Chancelor, who by his prudence, prouided, that the conference was not broken of, and that the Bishops kept, farre more moderate and quiet order than they had done be­fore.

The eight day after, which was the xvi. of thesame moneth, the Cardinal of Loraine answered our oratiō, and pro­testing afore, that he, and his, would al­wayes submit themselues, to y^e kinges rule, and would be ready, to obeye hys commaundement in al pointes: yet ne­uerthelesse, reserued place, for theyr wonted immunitie and fredom, wher­by, they are wont to quite themselues from all subiection, and chalenge the chiefe authoritie. And that he did so sut­telly, that he scarcely semed, to touche that sore. And pretending a coloure of concorde, he protested, y^t he would glad­ly receiue vs, which had swarued from him, if we would returne, & humble our [Page] selues to them. To conclude that they would be, as fathers towards vs. If we would shew our selues, as children to­wardes them. These, & such other like, afore promised, he sayd he would aun­swere onely to the Articles of our orati­on. Whereof the one concerned the Church, the other the Lordes Supper. He ymagined, that we had so defyned y^• Church, as though, the name thereof, had extended no farther, thā to the elect: and therfore largely reasoned agaynste it, shewing out of the common similitu­des of the gospel, (in the whiche, it is cō ­pared, to a plat of grounde, and to a fy­shers net,) that the name therof, exten­ded euen to ill and reprobate persons. But he gaue it a meruaylous definitiō: Saying, that the Catholike Church is it, which is euery where knowen, and of all mē. To the authority of y^• church, he sayd, al interpretation of Scriptures and making of traditions ought to bee referred. Saying that the succession, as well of that Church, as of the pastours therof, was perpetual but of the Lordes Supper, he so entreated, y^e touching no­thing at al, of y^e chaūge of y^e natures of [Page] the elements, he came very nye to their opinion, which ioyne the body & bloud of Christ, with the elementes. And say, that they be both vnder them, and in them. Which afterwardes, we vnder­stode, was done for a polecy, partly, to procure their fauoure, whom he had so kindly clawed, and partly, to make vs the more hatefull to them. Neither yet did he plainly agree with them, but she­wed that in thys respect, he did willing­ly ioyne with them, that they myghte ioyntly warre against vs. The ende of his oration, was to this effect. That the kyng and his counsell, leauing our opi­nion, should folow the steppes of theyr for fathers, and not leaue their accusto­med vsage. When he had ended, we de­sired that presently, whiles the memory therof was yet fresh, we might satisfye his obiections, and refute his argumē ­tes. For we feared, least after thys the Cardinals answere, we should scarcely haue leasure or liberty afterwardes to speake. Bicause y^e day afore, many brag­ged, y^t we shuld loke for nothing els, thā condemnation, & the thūderbolt of exco­munication. Neyther wer we ignorant [Page] therof. The Queene, taking the aduise of her coūcel, cōmaunded vs to depart, saying: y^t we should answere it an other tyme, & that she would appoint vs a day whē we shuld be presēt again. And sure­ly, meruaile had it ben, if the byshops, which wer of y^t coūcel, would haue geuē any other councel. The next day againe we desired y^t we might be presētly heard and y^e tyme no longer prolōged. But we could obtayne nothing, neither wer we heard, before the eight day. In y^e meane time, false rumors were spred abrode, y^t we wer ouercome, & put to silēce, & had nothyng to say. Whereas we were rea­dy to haue answered their oration pre­sently. And how false such tales be, here by men may sufficiently gesse, that the Bishops did what they could, to breake of the cōference, so y^t at the last, by their importunity they obteined of y^e Queene that the matter shuld not be opēly heard afore y^e king, but in a more secret place, afore few. Therfore, it was deferred, til the .xxiiii. day of y^t moneth at the whiche cōmaunded to returne to Poyssye, we came before y^e Quene, y^e king & Queen of Nauarre, & the rest of y^e Lordes and [Page] counsallours, there were present also [...]. Cardinalles, and many Byshops, and diuynes of al sortes: we the mynisters, were admitted only to the number of xij. Those being seuered which wer sēt frō other Churches, which afore were ioyned w^t vs. For now the matter was heard, both in narower place, & in lesse companye than before, the Cardynals of lorayne shewed in few wordes, that this assemblye was to this end, y^t if we would obiecte any thing, agaynst that which he had sayde eyght dayes before, we might freely speake, & shuld be herd. Then Beza, in the name of vs al, said: That he would haue wished y^t immedi­atlye he might haue aunswered y^e Car­dynalls oration, whyles the same was fresh in memorye or at the least, that he might haue had som copye therof, y^t he might, aūswere certaynly & perfectly to euery poynt, but, forasmuch as he coulde not obtayne that, he woulde aunswere so much as he coulde call to mynde. Fyrste there fore, as concer­ning the article of the Churche, which the Cardinall fyrste handled, he deui­ded it into thre partes.

[Page]First, what it is. Then, what are the marks therof. Thirdly, what and how great is the authoritie therof. It is wel knowē (quoth he) y^t this name Ecclesia. (which signifieth the church) is deriued from the Greeke [...] which signifyeth to call frō on place to another. Of calling, we find .ii. sorts in y^e scriptures, the one cōioyned with the working of y^e holy ghost: wherof Paul to the Romains writeth, whom he cal­led, them he iustified.Rom. viii c. xxviii. The other, al­thoughe in outward shew. It be al one with the first: yet is altogether vnprofi­table to saluation. And y^t only through the fault of man, beyng deaffe at the calling of God. Of this calling, spake the Lorde, when he sayde. That many wer called but fewe chosē.Mat. xxii. b. xiiii. Here­of it happens, y^t the name of the church (which signifyeth the congregacion of those, that are assembled by the word of god) is taken .ii. wayes. For, generally it contayneth al those, which outward­ly professe to folowe the calling of god. Neyther is it to be doubted, but manye hypocrites, and reprobate persons are within this nūber. Neither we thanks [Page] be to god therefore) haue at any tyme, Either written or taught otherwise, for asmuch as, both the scripture, and also common experience doth plainly proue the same, but, takyng this name of the churche proprely, and streyghtlye, (as, manye tymes we doe) we then say, y^t it comprehendeth onlye the electe and chosen of god. And, that al men may know, that we be not the authours of this maner of speache, or of this doc­trine, when it is written, that y^e church is y^e body of Christ, bones of his bones, fleshe of his fleshe, yea, when y^e name of Christ it selfe is geuen vnto it,Eph. ii g. xxx. (as Paule wrytyng to the Corinthians, ioyning the members with the heade, calleth her Christ)i. Cor. xii. b. xii. xvii. how could in y^e num­ber be contayned the reprobate, in as muche as, they are the members of the deuill? For it cannot bee, y^t we shoulde be members bothe of Christ and of the deuil, which Austine writyng agaynste Cresconius, well noteth in his seconde booke, and xxiiii. Chapter. He also wri­tyng on the .lxiiii. psalme, vsed this dis­tinction of the churche, saying: y^• that church whiche is signifyed by Ierusalē [Page] toke her begynnyng of Abel, and Ba­bilon, of Eain. And afterwardes in his fyrst booke of baptysme, agaynst y^e Do­natistes, the seconde Chapter, wheras he taketh, the name of the church more largely, he saieth, that he, that begot A­bell, Enoch, Noe, Abraham, & the reste of the Prophetes, begot also Cayn, Is­maell, Dathan, and suche lyke. There­fore to conclude, we muste take that whiche Austine hymselfe wrote in the seuenth boke of the same booke, the. 51. chapter, whiche is also rehearsed .xxiiii. ix. i. a. ca. All thyngs consydred it is said that there are two kynde of men in the churche.

Some of them (sayeth he) bee the members of Christe, and of the house of God, yea the house of GOD it self. Other some bee in the house, but not of the house. For they bee as chaffe with the corne, tyll suche tyme as they bee seuered. Hereof ryseth a questyon whether the Churche bee in­uisible? Whiche I thynke good to af­fyrme, and to conclude, that onely God knowes his elect & chosē. Yet neuerthe­lesse we beleue y^t ther is a holy church, [Page] whiche is conceiued, imagined and be­leued, not seene. For if we shuld other­wise saie, thereof would ensue y^t whiche is most repugnaunt to reason. For if the churche be vnknowen vnto vs, to what flock shal we stickto be pertakers of saluation, when to the Church only Christ extendeth his power & saluatiō? we say therfore, that althoughe that Churche can not be discerned by sight, yet when we seeke to what flocke and companye we ought to assocyate oure selues, ther be certayne notes, wherby we may know & discerne y^esame, name­ly, the pure worde of god, and the syn­cere administration of the sacraments. These be the cleare and euident marks thereof, neither is there any doute, but whatsoeuer these be, ther is also y^e true Church of god. Furthermore, we say: That al those, that professe true religiō, are charitablye to be counted amonge the number of the faythful, vnlesse, the lorde do playnely detest their hipocrisy and dessemblynge. Whereof, Paule giueth vs a manifest president callinge the Corinthians and Galathians faith­full,i. Cor. ii. a and applying to them, the general [Page] name of the churche, albeit in thē there was great imperfection, aswel of lear­ning, as life, whiche in diuers places he himselfe complaineth. For, all those that haue any foundation, doe not al­waies builde on the same, golde, siluer, and pretious stones onely: but also of­tentimes, hey, chaffe, and sedge.i. Cor. ii. c xii. In this maner and sort therefore, we vse to speake of the church, least we should seme to appoint any fantasticall thing or that should consiste in imaginations onely, or least we mighte geue any co­lour, to ill disposed persones, to deeme vs suche, as were in times past y^• Can­thares and Donatistes, and in this our age are the Anabaptistes, against whō, we haue oftē reasoned about this que­stion. Nowe let vs come to the markes and signes of the true churche, whiche is necessary to be discerned & knowen, sith out of her is no saluation. And for that cause Sathan, that olde enemye of man, hath attempted by all meanes possible, to disguise and counterfayte her, to chaunge her auncient sygnes, and fayne newe in their places. Her vncertaine and vndoubted markes, we [Page] haue sayde to be two, that is to wēte, the pure preachyng of the woorde and administration of the sacramentes. Hereto, doe some adioyne ecclesiastical discipline, and fruites of fayth. And trulye, it is necessary, that euery flock should haue some head and guyde whō they oughte to obey, yf they mynde to liue in safetye: but forasmuche as oure owne iniquities, often tymes are the cause, that we wāt y^e two last markes, let vs content our selues with the fyrst.

Therefore, that the worde of god is the certayne sygne of the churche, her­by it appeareth, that bothe Christe and Peter compare the same to seede.Mat. xiii. a. iii iiii. xi. i. Pet. i. d. For the whiche cause also, Paule sayth, that he begat the Corinthians in Christ, by preachyng the worde.i. Cor. iiii c. xv. Therefore in dy­uerse places, it is called one foode and nouryshemente: this also Christe hym­selfe witnesseth to pertayn to his shepe, saying: that they heare his voice and no others.Iohn. x.

We adioyne hereto the Sacramen­tes also, for that Christe woulde not onelye, to oure eares, but also to our eyes, and the reste of oure bodylyesenses [Page] wytnesse his grace. And there­fore, he ordeyned the Sacramentes, to be certain and visible signes, both of oure vnion with hym, and also of cha­ritye and loue among oure selues. For that cause, duryng the olde Testament it was sayde, that they shoulde be ba­nyshed the companye of the faythfull, whiche had not the sygne of cyrcumci­sion. And furthermore decreed, that all householders shoulde thrice in the yere, appeare before the Lorde, at Ie­rusalem, by common sacrifyce, to tes­tifye the vnitye of fayth and religion.Exodus xxxiiii. d. xxiii. Afterwardes, the Vyneyarde beyng spoyled, the Gentyles grewe in one bodye with the Iewes, not onely by preachyng the woorde, but also, by the Sacramentes of Baptysme, and of the bodye and bloude of oure Lord. Yea, and Christe commaunded his Apostles so to dooe, saying: goe ye, and teache all nations:Mat. xx. [...] xix. This is the doctryne of the woorde, to the which he foorthwith adioyneth the Sacra­mentes, saying: Baptysing, in the name of the Father, the Sonne, and the holy ghost.

[Page]For, to baptisme also, must we applye that, which Paule writeth of the sup­per, saying: that what he receiued of the Lorde, he deliuered to vs.i. Cor. xi. c xxxii. And thesame he testifieth in an other place also. Namely, that the Churche is founded vppon the foundation of the prophetes and the Apostles:Ephe. ii. d xx. that is to wete, vpon Iesus Christ, who is the summe & sub­staunce of all the doctrine of the Apo­stles and Prophetes. So also must we vnderstande another texte of the same Apostle. Where he sayeth, that the Churche is a piller of the liuing God, a bolster of truthe.i. Timo. iii. d. xv. Whiche meaneth, that the woorde of God, whiche is the truthe it selfe, dothe staye and vpholde the church, or els is placed in y^e church, as in an open and sure fortresse, for y^• in her god extendeth his power & health to all beleuers,Rom. i these are the true and visible signes of the churche. Whiche therefore is called the mother of the faithfull, for that they wer begotten in her, by incorruptible seede, and noury­shed, and fed with the same fode. If the preaching of the woorde, and the true administration of the sacramentes, be [Page] necessarily required in the churche, thē muste there needes be pastours & tea­chers to execute thesame. As the holye scriptures sufficientely witnesse, but chieflye Paule writyng to the Corin­thians and Ephesians, this was the cause, that this thirde marke was ad­ioyned hereto.i. Cor. xii. d. xxviii. Ephe. iiii vi. xi. i. Timo. iii. a Ti [...]. i. a vi. Namely, ordinary suc­cession, from the time of the Apostles. Hereto we aunswer, that such successi­on is muche to be esteemed, if it be wel considered, and applied after the exam­ple of the auncient fathers, who groū ­ded thereon against heretikes, & there newe opinions. As Tertulian, Irene­us and Austine againste the Maniches and Donatistes, but because many lay the same against vs, as though we had cōueyed into the churches new scismes and heresies, it is necessarye, that we should shew our minde herein. We say therefore, that there is one succession of doctrine, an other of persōs. Doctrine we graunt to be the true and vndoub­ted mark of the churche as it hath bene already saide. For, although the doc­trine of the Gospell, bee not therefore the more to be credited, for that it is the [Page] auncientest of all other (thoughe it happen many tymes for oure synnes, that thesame seeme so new & straunge to menne, as it ought to bee familiar and vsuall) yet neuerthelesse, the wit­nesse of the continuall succession ther­of, is of no small force, to wynne it authoritye amonges menne. As to the succession of persones, we admitte it, but so that it be conioyned wyth the succession of the Propheticall and Apostolyke doctryne, in substance and the chiefe poyntes and groundes atleaste. But, we speake of the doc­tryne it selfe, not of theyr maners. For, albeit, it be required, of true and faithfull pastours, that in doctryne and lyfe they be sounde and pure, yet for the ignoraunce of some thynges, or for the diuersitie of opinions in doc­trine, so that it stretch not to the sub­staunce of our saluation, or though ther life be not of the perfectest, yet for these thynges we doe not reiect them, but beare them. So they kepe the grounde and foundation. And that we ought so to doe, Christ teacheth vs, saying: that whē the Scribes and Pharises sitting [Page] in Moyses chayre teache vs, we oughte to folowe their doctryne, and not their deedes.Mat. xxiii a. ii. iii. Whiche place, Austine writing vppon Iohn, sayeth: ought to be vnder­stande of suche hyerlyng pastours as keepe the sounde doctrine, but not of false Prophetes, of whom Christ con­trarywyse sayde.August. tracta. xlvi Beware of the lea­uen of the Pharisees.Mat. xvi. a. vi. vi. xi Whyle they sitte (sayeth Austine) in the chayre of Moy­ses, they teache the lawe of God, and so god teacheth by them. But yf they teache theyr owne doctryne, neyther heare theyr woordes, neyther folowe their deedes. That also the same au­thor expresseth more at large, in hys xlix. Sermon, of the woordes of the Lorde. Forasmuche as therefore, false Prophetes and wolues maye succede to true and faythfull pastours, we dooe not onelye, not admitte personall suc­cession, but euen condemne it, vnlesse the successiō of doctrine be ioyned with all, because it is a meete cloke for anye lye or errour. Furthermore if personal succession of it self shoulde be taken for a certayn mark of y^e church, ther ought to haue ben som promis of god shewed [Page] wherby he hath limited his grace to a­ny certayn sea or countrey. Whiche in the new Testament, we shal not find. In deede he promised, that the churche shoulde be Catholike, that is to were, vniuersall, whiche is so called, for that the particuler members thereof, are here and there, dispersed throughoute the whole worlde. Whersoeuer it plea­seth god to shewe his iudgementes, ey­ther vpon those, whō he vtterly cutteth of, or whom he chasteneth for a tyme, or in shewyng mercy to them, whō he furthereth better and better, or whom he calleth to his knowledge and salua­tion. For in some places, the Lord iust­ly reuenging himself so destroyeth the churche, that he seemeth euen to roote it oute, and not to leaue so muche as a­ny signe therof, as it hapned amonges the barbarous nations and in the most part of all the Easte. Otherwhere, as in Greece, and other realmes more nie to vs, he hath lefte some tokens of the churche. Agayne, sometyme the Lorde dothe cut and breake of, onely the per­sonall succession of pastours: as it hap­ned at Antioche, in the time of Samo­satenus, [Page] and at Alexandria after the banishment of Athanasius, and in ma­ny other churches. And, that we neede to seeke no further: the personall suc­cession, then at the least fayled in the Romaine churche, when Honorius be­ing bishop, was condemned for the de­testable heresie of the Eutichians. And so likewise in the time of Iohn, the. xxii of that name, who was also cōdemned for heresie. Vnlesse perhaps some man wyll mayntayne, that those that are manifestly condemned of heresye, be pastours. Furthermore in what case this succession stoode vnder Iohn the shee Pope, through the scismes and cō ­tentions of diuerse, striuyng for the Popes sea, the histories sufficientlye witnesse. Wherfore we conclude, that not respectyng the personall succession of pastours, we must alwayes haue re­garde to the purenesse of doctrine, and the sincere administratiō of sacramēts so that they onely be to be counted suc­cessours of the Apostles, whiche beyng lawfully called, doe buylde vpon theyr foundation. Whether they deriue their succession from them, or whether the­same [Page] haue fayled. And contrarywyse, they that neyther buylde nor teache, or preache theyr owne doctrine in stede of the Apostles, although they were a­ble to shewe neuer so many and conti­nuall presidentes of their predecessors, are not to be taken for pastours, but to be shūned as wolues, as Christ and his Apostles teach. Some manne par­happes will obiecte. Is it therfore law­full for any man to teache, and myny­ster the Sacramentes? no. For it beho­ueth (as the Apostle sayeth) y^t al thinges bee done in the house of God, ryghtly, and orderly.i. Corint. xiiii. g. xi. Who then shall bee taken for true pastours? they whiche are law­fully called. It remayneth then, that we vnderstande, what is a lawfull cal­lyng And here I must craue attention. For we saye that some callyng is ordy­narye, and some extraordinarye. Ordi­narye is it, in the whiche is obserued the order appoynted by GOD in hys churche. In that order these three thin­ges are chiefly requyred.

Firste the examination of his doc­trine and lyfe that shalbe ordayned, thē a lawfull choyse and election. And last­lye [Page] the laying of handes. And these we all gathered out of diuers places of the scripture. As oute of the Actes of the A­postles, and the writinges of Paule to Timothe and Titus.Ac. i. d. xii Ioh. vi. a. vi. i. Tim. ii. a. ii. et. iii. d. xxii. Titus. i. a. vi This therefore is the ordinarye callyng. Whereby we may well discerne whiche is it, that we call extraordinarye. Namely it, that wāteth som one, or other, or al these cō ­ditions, and yet the same grounded vp­pon the authoritie of God, and lawfull. That god vsed suche extraordinary cal­lyngs, it plainly appeareth throughout the whole scripture. For who laid han­des vpon Moyses, that he myght conse­crate Aaron? Who gaue the gyfte of Prophecye, to Esay, Danyeil, Amos, and the rest?Exodus. xxviii. Esa. vi. b. xciii. Dani. i. c. [...]vii. Amos. vii xiiii Yea, was not this geuen them, when they, that ordinarilye had the charge thereof, abused it? For then it was necessarye, that god shoulde put to his hande extraordinarilye: not to trouble or confounde the order of hys churche, but to correcte them, whiche vnder the pretence of ordinary successi­on, dissordred all. This well proue the writyngs of the Prophets, which most of al pertain to y^• orders of the priestes. [Page] Ps. xxviii vi. vii. Iere. vii. a. iiii et. xxiii. a. xi. Ezec. xxii e. xxvi. Soph. iii. a. iiii. But if it be obiected, y^t suche men gaue some certayntye, of their vocation, as either some miracle, or some heauenly signe: I graunt the same to be true in some, but not in all. Neither can any mā say otherwise, vnlesse he wil plainly denye y^e truth. Neither do Iwel know, whether we shall find many prophetes of the stocke of Aaron, or vpon whom, after the ordinary maner, hands were layde. But yf any man will take this exceptiō, that those prophets vsed only to rebuke vice and wēt no farther, but abstained frō sacrifice: I aūswer y^t that is not true in all. For Samuel, which was not of the stock of Aarō, sacrificed in Mispa: And Elias of Galaad, in y^• mount Carmelus.i. Samu. vii. c. ix i. Regum xviii. f. xxvi. Then is it not to be maruelled, y^t the prophets of that time woulde extend theyr office so far, as to circumcise & sacrifice, whereas that by enheritaunce appertayned onely to the tribe of Leuy? But suche enheritaunce at this daye hath no place: thus you see, what we call the church, what we think of her markes: and of the callyng of pastours in her. Which yf you please to applye, to oure Churches, or to oure [Page] selues we hope, that by the helpe of god, we shall shewe such profe, and witnesse therof, out of the holy scriptures, as no man shall haue any occasion to doute thereof. And that, both according to y^e worde of god, & also to the writings of that godly man Austyne, at the least in that treatyse, which is reckned among his workes, and intitled of. 65. question the last question. Now let vs speake of the authoritye of the churche. By that, which we haue alreadye spoken, it ap­peareth, that we derogate frō her none of those hye & precious titles, y^t the holy ghost doth geue her, but say that she is the bodye of our lorde, obtayning the same here only in part, til such time, as ioyned to her head, she shall fullye and perfectly enioye the same.Heb. xi. c. xv i. Co. i. a. vii. i Cor. xiiii vi. v. Ep. iiii. c. xv. She is the house of god, but suche as is daylye put of and increased. She is ruled by y^e spirite of god, but as yet she stri [...]eth a­gaynst y^e flesh.Gala. v. c. xvii. She is clensed & washed but so, that by litle, and litle, she shalbe brought to that perfect beautye, in the which ther shalbe no spott, no wrinkle.Ep. v. f. 25 i Co. 3. c. 4 She knowes god but only in part. And in these our maners of speache, we wish [Page] the Apostles wordes to be weyghed, to conclude, we graunt, that there is no saluation without the church. For ther is no saluation but in Christ Iesus.i. Ihon. v. c. xi. Iohn. iii. c. xviii. And Christ dothe no where extende his saluation, but in those members, whose congregation, and communion is cal­led the churche, but it is doubted, whe­ther she maye erre in this worlde, whe­ther we bee subiecte to the scripture, or els her authoritie excede thesame. We aunswere, that her seuerall members maye erre, and dayly fall and fayle, as well in doctrine, as in lyfe, accordyng to the saying of Paule. In parte we knowe.i. Cor. xiii c. ix. Also Iohn saieth: If we saye y^t we haue no sinne, we deceue our selues and there is no truthe in vs.i. Iohn. i. d. viii. Wherfore if any man will goe aboute, to excepte the doctours from this number, lette him pardon vs, that we beleue him not. For we coulde easily shewe many au­thorityes, wherein do appeare y^e mani­fest errours of the best learned, & moste auncient doctours. Be it spoken wyth their leaue and fauour, whom as well for their singuler learnyng, as also for their passing pitie, we doe muche reue­rence. Neither truely, my L. Cardinal, [Page] (if I wel vnderstoode him) doth admy [...] thē without iudgement. This therfore is our opinion of y^• mēbers of y^• church seuerally, whose inperfection is not so material, but y^t the church may cōsist of thē. For, by litle & litle, they daily profit & encrease, aswel in amending of their liues, as encreasīg their learning. But now cōsidering y^• parts of the Churche more generally, as deuiding it into se­ueral diocesses, & prouinces, shal we say y^t they may erre? That they bothe may erre, & also haue erred, my L. Cardinal (if Iwel remēber) hath alredy graūted. And y^e same is also cōfirmed w^t so great & long experience, y^t no wise man maie wel doubt therof. It remaineth there­fore to consider the whole & vnyuersall churche. But first we must see in what sort. For if we consider it, as it is repre­sented by som general counsel, assured­ly we must not thinke, y^t the whole po­wer, y^t y^e holy gost extēdeth to y^t church, is restrained to any certain nūber of bi­shops, which oftētimes, are neither the best learned, nor best liuers. For howe oft hapneth it, y^• some one priuate man, passeth y^e best lerned, yea & somtimes y^e [Page] whole coūsel in wit & knowledge? For this cause, lōg since it hath bine writen, y^t better credyte is to be geuen, to any pryuate mā groūding a better reason, thā either to any coūcelor or pope.glo. in. ca. significasti de .elect. i ibi. pauo And hereof their is a notable example in the councell of nyce. For what stayed, that y^e prohibition of mariage. Which hath bred so much filthynes in y^t church, had not then bine stablished & decreed? only paphumtius as the history recordes w^t stode it. Or what conuocation of any generall councel hitherto hath bene so larg, but that a greate number of holye and learned men, yea & of the worthyest bishops, hath bene ouerpassed therin? And who will affirme y^t nothing more is reueled to those y^t are absente, than to those that are present at the coūcell? Furthermore you are not ignorante, what horrible confusiō ther hath bene, and is at this present in the church, and chiefly amonges those that sitt in hyest comes. So that y^e Church of god, euen there wher it should be most pure and perfect, doth appeare most confuse and desolate. And long time hath this wret­ched case continued, there yet remaine [Page] so many greuous & leude complaintes of good bishops, on y^e same: y^t the soūde of thē, semeth euē now presētli to pea [...]re [...]yne eares. What in his time, Be [...]a had wrote in his bokes, de consideratione et sermone, 33 ch▪ vppon the Lan [...]a Lan­ [...]corum▪ also in hys sermō of y^e cōuersiō of Paul, it is no lesse cōmon, than true. Alas, alas, o lord god, they are chefe in perse [...]īg y^t ▪ which seme to be chefest in thy church, & to beare y^e greatest rule therein. They haue take y^e castell of Sion: they haue wonne y^• m [...]nicions, & now frely, & by cōmaundemente, they [...]ōsume w^t fyer the whole citye▪ These things we speake not in reproch of any [...]ā, but to shew, y^t for as much as y^t chef callīg in y^e church are cōfounded, & gone astray, it can not be proued, that [...] vn [...] ­uersal coūsels, (which haue bin assēbled many times, of a multitude of mē most vnfit therfore,) are so guided w^t y^• grace of y^• holi gost, y^t they may not erre. The old priest (of whom I would make no mētion, but y^• his example is cōmonly aledged for y^t profe hereof) although he were vitious & wicked, did prophēcye, [...] [...]r [...]tel, y^t it was necessari y^t on mā shuld [Page] die for y^• people, least the whole nation shuld perish. But neuerthelesse, his de­cres, or counsell is not therfore alowed, as though he had rightfullye condēned Christ. For the holy gost prophecied it, & not he, which vnderstode not what he spake. For he was styrred w^t a cōtrary spirit, and altogether deuillishe For he gaue iudgement against the innocent Christ, y^• son of god. Furthermore, if this priuilege be geuē to general coun­cels, y^t they cannot erre, either in y^• rule of doctrine, or forme of life, we woulde fain know, at what time this was done For there was alwaies one faith, & one church.Ephe. iiii a. v In the olde churche & vnder the olde testamont the histories & prophets witnesse, y^• errours were commonlye taught & receiued. All their spies (saith Esay) be blind, their dogges bee dūme, not able to barke.Psa. lvi. d x. Also Ieremy: Bothe prophete & priest, do all forge lyesIere. vi. [...] xv. And least you should thinke y^esame to be re­ferred to y^e liues of priuate persons it in writtē in y^esame prophet: the prophetes prophecy falsly in my name.Ier. xiiii. c. xiiii. For I sent thē not, neither did I cōmaund them to speak, neither did I speak vnto thē, but [Page] lying visiōs, diuinations, yea nothyng, or y^• dece [...]s of their own hert, they pro­phecie vnto you. Also Esai: y^e wisdom of y^• wise shal perish, & the witte of y^e witty shal hide it selfe.Ps. xxiiii. c. xiiii. Also Ezechiell: The law shal perish frō y^e priest, & councel from y^e elders.Ezec. vii. g. xcvi. Furthermore, who cōdemned y^e prophets, as Ieremy, Michae, yea & the son of god himself, & his Apostles, but y^• councels of y^e priestes of Israel? If any man answer, y^t these things hapned vn­der y^• olde testamēt, we will replie, that he doth not satisfy our reasō, nor speake any thing to y^• purpose. For not w^t [...] ­ding y^•, his cōclusion remaineth That y^• caūs [...]ls of y^e prelates, albeit they wer v­niuersal, wer oftētimes ruled rather w^t y^• spirit of error thā of god. But that we may com to the newe testamēt, did not Paul specially warne y^t church, writīg to y^e Ephesiās, y^• wolues should com frō amonges thē,Acte. xx. [...]. xix. & that y^e son of perdition shuld sit in y^• tēple of god?ii. Thessa ii. a. iiii. And truely yf we weigh y^e coūsels seuerallye, we shal find so much repugnant & cōtrariety in thē, y^t we must nedes cōfesse y^t the holye gost ruled thē not, but Sathan, whiche long since knowes how to trāsform hī ­selfe [Page] into an Angell of light. There is a place very manifest in Austine, as con­cerning this, in hys seconde booke of Baptisme against the Donatistes, the thirde Chapter, wherein he plainly she­weth, that the writinges of seueral Bi­shops, are amended by particuler coun­cels. And prouiniciall Synodes by vni­uersall. And vniuersall counsels refor­med by others after, when by experiēce that is detected, which afore was hiddē, or that disclosed, which afore was coue­red. Where Austyne doth not entreate of the outwarde forme, but of the doc­tryne, and of the Aphricane councell, wherin thei did deliberate, whether thei ought to be Baptised againe, that had bin Baptised of hereti [...]es. There wyll perhaps be obiected an other reason, commō enough, namely, that Christe did promise, as oft as .ii. or three are ga­thered together in his name, to be him­selfe in the middest of thē. Math. vi, viii. c. xx. And therefore much more he would be present at a ge­neral councel. We graūt ye, that may wel be presumed, but farr differs a pre­sumption from a necessary conclusion. For, such is the naughtinesse of men, y^t [Page] they abuse the name of God, to the de­creeing of their own lyes. And they of­ten tymes haue the name of God moste in their mouthes, whose heartes ar enemies and haters of God.i. Cor. xv. c. ix. And whereas the weakenesse of mannes witt is such, as dayly experience proueth, and many are blynded with noughty affections: We say that those that grounde on no other foundation, than the iudgemente of men, and coloure of a councell, are in great perill. How then? Thynk we that the doctrine of the Church is vncertam for y^t she may erre? No. For we graūt, that although we knowe God onely in parte as Paule sayeth, and in that res­pect, error is mingled with the truthe, yet God did neuer permit, that y^e chiefe, and substantiall poyntes were wholye ouerthrowen and buryed. For alway [...]s he hath reserued to hymselfe a flocke, some tymes greater, & sometymes les­ser, to speake and vnderstande those thynges, which it behoueth, both to vn­derstande & speake. As in Elias tyme in Israell. Also in the captiuity of Babilō, and about the comming of Christ. At which tyme, scarse Zacharias onely, [Page] Elizabeth, Ioseph, the virgine Marye, Simon, and Anne the Prophetess [...] re­mained, that knew God: and among [...] so great corruption of the Scribes and Pharises, did truely vnderstande y^e ful­filling of the Prophecies. Suthe brea­ches whiche happen in the churche of God for our sinnes, be as it were tem­pestes, whiche afterwardes the Lor [...] calmes, and lyke cloudes, which vanish awaye at the rising of the sonne. Dooe we then condemne the olde councels? God forbidde. For if by theyr decrees thinges shoulde bee refourmed, you knowe that you should be compelled to chaunge more than we. Onely this we desire, that the scripture maye be to vs as a touchestone, whereby all thinges ought to be allowed, that are doone or spoken in the churche. Whiche yf anye man thinke vnreasonable, let him read that famous saying of Austine, writing to Maximinus the Arian in his second booke and .xiiii. chapter, where he en­treateth of the coūcel of Nice and Ari­minum. For I thinke there is no coun­cell, that maye rather bee called vny­uersall, than the first councel of Nyce. [Page] And contrariwyse, all menne confesse, that the councel of Ariminum, oughte worthily to bee reiected and condened. Vppon what occasion dothe Austine talke of those two councels? About the controuersie of an article of our fayth, nowe confirmed & established. Name­ly, the consubstantialitie of the sonne of god. And yet neuerthelesse, Austine professeth, that he would neither ground [...] on the councel of Nyce nor yet of Ari­minum, But would be tryed by y^e scrip­tures, whiche ought to bee the prooues on eyther parte. If anye man obiect the darkenesse of the scripture, we wyll graunt that, whiche Paule sayeth, that the naturall man, dothe not perceyue those thynges whiche procede from the spirite of god.i. Cor. ii. d xiiii. Also we with Peter saye, that the scripture is not of priuate in­terpretation.ii. Pet. i. d xx. But if y^• darknes of it be such, y^t it cannot lighte our minds, why dothe Christe referre vs onely to these scriptures, to take coūcel of thē? Serch ye y^e scripture, saith he▪ Ioh. f. xxix. Also whē Abrahā was desired of y^t rich & vnhappy man, y^• was tormented in hell, that he woulde sende some manne to warne hys bre­thren: he aunswered, they haue Moyses [Page] and the Prophetes. If they beleue not them, neither if any manne should ryse from death, would they beleue him. Or howe did they, which had the writings of the Apostles onely, when neyther bookes, nor commentaries were writ­ten of thesame. But whereas my Lord Cardinall woulde haue that taken for an Apostolike tradition, whiche hathe bene receiued of the church at al times, in all places, and of al men. I see not, howe these. iii. pointes maie be proued. For how great diuersitie shal we find, in the bookes of auncient fathers, yea, and euen in the verye articles of oure faith? If these wordes should be weyed (at all tymes, and of all men) wher shall we beginn, but at y^e Apostolike church? Who shall be firste in order, but onely the Apostles? Whose liues and doings, are partly, faithfully written by Luke, and partly, gathered out of their owne writinges.

To be shorte, we returne at the last, to the first foundatiō of the scriptures, sith all truthe came from god, who cō ­maunded the prophets and Apostles to bee interpreters & messengers of oure [Page] saluation. In the meane time we dooe not reiecte the councels of the fathers, as farre as they be confirmed with the testimonies of the holye scripture. For them, as Austine sayeth, the holy [...] ghost hath so tempered, that it which [...] in some place is obscurely spoken, in some other is expressed more plainlye, and more at large. And that rule chiefly amonges others he geueth, whereb [...] we may vnderstande the scriptures, i [...] that booke whiche he wrote of christia [...] doctrine, yet there remaineth som [...] doubt in this question. Some mē hau [...] thought, that the will of God in these thinges whiche pertaine to oure sal­uation, is not fullye declared in those writinges, whiche the Prophetes and Apostles haue lefte vnto vs. Whiche doubte if it should take any place, what a gap wer ther opened to all mischefe? And certes, this was y^e breache, by the which, Sathan first pearced into y^e vine yard of the lord, to destroy it. God true­ly before the tune of Moyses, with vi­siōs & reuelatiōs, directed his church: & in like maner y^eapostles before thei put theyr doctrine in writīg, taught y^esame [Page] by worde of mouth. But because y^e nū ­ber of men encreasing, their noughty­nesse encreased also, the lorde would, y^• this doctrine shoulde bee contayned in writinges and monumentes. Whiche might be vnderstoode and perceiued of al men, why so? that he might confoūd the impudence and rashnesse of suche, as wil set foorth & cloke their dreames, with the name of tradition, reuelation, and custome. But if the doctrine of god be written onely in some part, to what purpose is this remedy? Truely it can not be so. Iohn spake of the scriptures, when he sayeth, that those things which are written, are written to that ende, y^t we beleuing them, may haue life euer­lasting,Iohn. xx. [...]. [...]xi. whiche he had falslye sayde, yf thei themselues had concealed any doc­trine necessary to life and saluation. But Paule, when he declareth the vse of scripture, & vnder the person of Ty­mothe teacheth all ministers, yf anye thing should haue ben added to y^e scrip­tures, wuld not haue affirmed, that by them, the man of god is made perfecte.i. Timo. ii. d. xvi. Neither do we denye, but y^• at all times there haue ben somtraditions of the a­postles, [Page] which be not written. But those were suche, as pertained to the ciuil or­der of the churche. But forasmuche as, many men haue abused this name this great while, I thinke good to shewe, what traditions ought to bee counted Apostolike. Whiche shall not be hard, yf in iudgyng and discernyng them, we vse the markes. For, fyrst we must consyder, whether they doe agree with the doctryne of the woorde, and then, whether they bee apte and meete to e­dify [...]. For it is certayne, that the Apo­stles dyd neuer institute any rites and ordinaunces, whiche eyther directly, or els in anye parte, were contrarye to theyr owne doctryne: or myghte with­drawe menne from spirituall worship­pyng, whereof theyr owne wrytynges beare sufficiente recorde. If thys rule be obserued, bothe doctrine shall easilye be discerned frō traditions, & also false traditions, frō y^e true. Neyther are you ignorant how foolishe Tertullian iud­geth their opinions, which think, y^t y^e a­postles haue ouerpassed an [...]thīg, neces­sary to saluatiō, which ether by word of mouth or writīgs thei haue not taught. [Page] but we will adde more hereto. Namely y^t those things, which herein y^e Apostles decreed, were not continuall. Truelye their instytutions passe all exception, yet neuerthelesse, by y^e rule of charitye, they yelded somewhat to y^e weaknes of men. As when the eating of suffocatorū and bloud, was forbid the Iewes. Also, those thynges, which Paule himselfe taught, and obserued in Timothe, and his own persō.Ac. 15. f. 25. Act. 16. a. [...] i Co. 16. d. xxix. i Co. 11. a 7 Which now truly shuld haue no place, but by the generall rule of charitye, whereby, we are willed, in things indifferēt, to apply our selues to our neighbours. Other such like, may be gathered of their rytes, as of kissing vncouering the head, which was the signe of authority, and other such lyke, whiche at this daye are contrarye to y^• customes of many nations, amōg whō, it would seme most folish, y^e men should kisse, y^e one the other: & to talke with y^e heade vncouered, is commonly a signe of y^• lowest state and condicion. These thinges therefore ought to be consi­dered, before anye custome be thought Apostolyke.

[Page]Also no man must grounde vppon the authority of the Apostles, to trouble the church: As it hapned in the cōtrouersye of y^e daye, in y^e which Easter should be kept, whiche bred miserable deuision, and euē in the Apostles tyme, by those y^t did abuse y^e authoritie of the churche at Ierusalē, to myngle Iewishnesse wyth Christian religion. Of whom it is wri­ten in y^e Actes of the Apostles, where it was decreed by a councell, that no man should lay y^t yoke on mennes cōsciēces. Wherby, it may easely be perceiued, y^t the Apostles could not be the authoures of so many ceremonies, to the which af­terwardes: Satisfaction, merites, and remission of sinnes wer attributed. For they taught far otherwise. And so much they dissented from makyng newe ceremonies, that they gaue no place to those of Moses lawe, of the whiche God was the author. Of thys yoke of tradi­tions & obseruances. Austine long since writing to Ianuarius, much cōplained, if he had liued in our tyme, how would he haue lamented thē? Wherfore to be shorte, we desyre, that the Scripture, whiche herein is playne, maye iudge [Page] good traditions frō euil, holy from pro­phane, profitable frō hurtful, & necessa­rye frō superfluous. When of these ar­ticles we are once agreed, this question shall easily be dissolued, whether the au­thoritie of the church be greater, thā of the woorde of god, which certes is no lesse fonde, than if a man should doubte whether the sōn ought to be aboue his father, the wife aboue her husbande, or man aboue god. And sure, neuer y^e true church, or any godly mā, woulde moue such a doubt, but wil willingly submyt himself to her iudgemēt. Nether doth it make agaīst vs, y^t the church was afore y^e word. For it is most certain, that the word which afterwards was put in writing, is much more auncient. For by it was y^e church cōceued, born & bred. But this saying of Austine, is not to bee ob­ [...]ected, y^t he wuld not beleue y^e scripture, vnlesse y^e autoritie of y^e scripture moued him therto. But we must vnderstand, y^• in y^t place, Austine spake of himself, as of a Maniche, w^e whose erroure he was once seduced. I pray you, if ther rise ani doubt of y^e truth of any writing, to whō go we to trie it, but to y^• cōmō notary, to [Page] whose custody, al writīgs & monumēts are cōmitted. Neyther therfore doth it folow, y^t the autority of the writyng de­pēdeth on the witnes of y^e notarye. For of it self it is true though no mortal mā beare witnesse hereof. So truely must we answer thē, which thynk, y^• the au­thoritie of y^e holy scripture, dependeth vpō y^e cōstitutiōs, & decrees of y^e church. The decrees of of y^t coūcels are manye tymes cōtrary in this question. But all these things shalbe more fullye opened in disputation & conserēce. I wil shewe only reason, confirmed with y^e autority of certayn auncient & allowed fathers. Christ himself, gaue so much authority to the doctrine of y^e prophets, whom he had sent afore, that by theyr witnesse he would confirme his doctrine. Paul al­so, suffred y^e Thessaloniās so to do, & wil­led thē to searche y^e scriptures, to know whether he had taught thē truly.Ac. xvii. c. xi. Peter allowed that selfesame reason.ii. Peter. ii. d. xix. They therfore, which boast thēselnes to be y^e vicars of Christ, & the successors of Pe­ter & Paule, ought not to refuse y^esame cōditiō.Ca. ix. li. ii. Truely Ierome vpō Hieremy, sayth: y^t nether y^e error of y^e fathers nor [Page] of our auncesters, by y^e authority of the Scriptures is to be folowed. Chrisoftō vpon the .xxiiii. Chapter of Mathew the 49. Homelye, erpounding thys place. Those that be in Iury, let them flye to the moūtaynes, sayeth: that is, those y^t be Christians, let thē flye to the Scrip­tures. And again. Wherefore doth he in this tyme, wil al Christians to fly to the Scriptures? Bicause in thys tyme, since heresy inuaded the churche, there can be no other proofe of true Christen­dome, neither any other refuge for Christians minding to knowe the true fayth, but y^e diuine Scriptures. For a­fore, it appeared by many signes, which was the church of Christ, and whiche it of y^e Gentiles. But now whosoeuer wil seke it, can by no other meanes discerne which is the true church of Christe, but onely by the Scriptures. Also he saieth further. If a mā therfore be wylling to knowe the true church of Christ, howe should he know it in so great cōfusyon, but only by y^e Scriptures? Yet further therfore y^e lord knowīg y^t ther shuld be so great cōfusiō in y^e latter dayes, therfore doth Christ cōmaūd y^e those y^t be in chri­stianitye [Page] & such as be willing to strēgthē thēselues in [...] faith, [...] [...] [...]o other thing but the Scriptures. Otherwise if they [...]p [...]e any other changes, they shal likely [...] [...], & [...]sh, not vnderstāding, which is the true ch [...]rch and so shal they fa [...] [...] [...] [...] of defolatiō, which [...] y^• holy places of the churche. [...] in his moralls writeth thus. If, whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne, (as the Apostle [...]ayth) and faith commeth by hearing, and hearing by the worde of God: whatsoeuer is be­sides Scripture inspired of God, is [...]n. Also, in the Sermon of the confession of faith. If God be faithful in al his words and hys commaundementes [...]me and stable, for euer, done in truth & iustice, to reiect any thing that is written, or to bring in any thing not written, is a sweruing from fayth & manifest pride. Thus much was spoken of the churche, her signes, authority and succession a­fore the Lordes, and Bishops, and di­uerse other, which heard thesame very attentiuely. But bicause hys oration had bin already somewhat lōg, it semed good then to entreate nothing of the [Page] supper. Wherfore Beza medestly excu­syng hymself, & declaryng also, that we wer ready to shew a reason of y^t article, and as much as lay in vs to satisfy thē, if they would commaund vs forthwith to doe it. When Beza had ended, y^e Car­dynal beckned to Spensa to speak, and to answere our reasons. He protestyng with many woordes, that he had long wyshed for this cōference, & disputatiō, & y^t he neuer lyked alwaies contrary to those cruel punishmēts, which had lōg tymes bene vsed toward them, answe­red that those thinges were true, which we had sayd of the churche, her sygnes and succession. If we had so taught, and spoken at y^e first, we should neuer haue neded to haue come to this controuer­sy. But whereas we spake of y^e callyng into the churche, he muche maruelled, by whose authoritye, or by what cal­lyng we entred into the churche, and toke vpon vs to teache. Forasmuch as we wer not instituted by any ordina­ryes, neyther they at any tyme had layd theyr handes vpon vs. And hereof he gathered, y^• we wer no good pastors For by ordinary meanes (quoth he) you wer not called, and muche lesse by ex­traordinary. [Page] For extraordinarye voca­tion, must bee proued eyther by mira­cles, as the callyng of Moses was, who was raysed vp of God, to delyuer his people: or els by the witnesse of the scripture, as y^e callyng of Iohn, whose vocation is plainlye proued by a terte of Malachye, you want bothe. Where­of it foloweth, that youre ministerye is vnlawfull. But as concernyng trady­tions, and the interpretyng of y^e scryp­tures, yf there ryse any controuersye, we ought to referre it (quothe he) to the ordinary successours: as those, to whō the holy ghost is promised, and are ap­poynted of God for the same cause.

He brought foorth the exaumples of the olde Priestes and Leuites, whiche in tymes paste, in doubtful matters gaue y^e people coūcel, & to whose iudge­mente, the people were so bounde to stande, that from theyr decree, it was not lawfull for them to swarue, ney­ther on the ryghte hande, neyther yet on the left. And that we had many thin­ges by tradition, whiche no manne doubtes of, no, not we oure selues. As y^• the father is without beginnyng, y^e son equall in substance to him, also y^t yong [Page] children ought to be Baptised, that Ma­ry was a virgin after her deliuerance, & such lyke. So he affirmed, that those thinges, which are descended vnto vs from the auncient fathers, albeit they bee not written, yet are certainelye to be beleued, and no lesse to be allowed, than if they were confirmed by the au­thority of the Scriptures. That what­soeuer is decreed by generall councels is certain, and that they can not erre in doctrine. But as to that, which is cyted out of Austine, that the first counsels ar amended by the later, that he said neuer was in doctrine. That there were onely three kept before Austines time▪ The Nicene councell against the Arrians, y^e councel of Constantinople against the Macedoniās, the first counsel of Ephe­sus against Nestorius, none of y^e which was afterwardes amended. He denied the history of Paphuntius, as a thyng doubtful to be credited and further sayd that it perteined not to the purpose. At y^e laste to geue the Cardinall occasion, which seking by al meanes to breake of the conference, willed him to entreate of the supper: he came to that question, [Page] and with few wordes entreated, of the presence of the body of Christ in y^e bred. And he red to vs, certaine places out of the bokes of Caluine, [...]aling neuer­thelesse the name of the [...]tour, saying that he [...]erua [...]led, if we would swarue from hym, to whom we geue most au­thoritie aboue the rest, & about y^e end of his tale, he gaue vs those places to read.

Afore we answered Spensa, a Monk of that order, y^t are clothed all in white, whose name they say was Xantus, step­ped forth, enflamed with desire of contē ­tion. And as though he were aggrieued that Spēsa had talked somwhat graue­ly, and modestly, begā to powre out his stomake and not able to stay any lōger, wuld not let vs answer, til we had first heard him. Then, he began to repeate those things, which Spēsa had already spokē at large sawcig y^esame w^e scoffes & tauntes, which he semed to esteme, as y^t greatest ornamēts, & grace of his talke. For vs he cōpared, both to other aunci­ent hereti [...]es, & also to the Anabaptists, but at the last he became so mad, y^t abu­sing y^e authority of y^e aūciēt fathers, he affirmed, y^t the foūdati [...] of y^• traditiōs is [Page] more sure, than of the scripture. For y^e scriptures (quoth he) may by diuers in­terpretations bee wried sondry waies. And y^t Ciprian, with the rest of the A­phricans, was deceiued in this, y^t they sayd. Christ sayeth not, I am y^t custom. But, I am the waye, truthe and lyfe. And that this his saying, heretikes dyd afterwardes commonly abuse. He al­ledged the authoritie of Tertullian, of the prescriptions of heretikes, impery­ously, & euen like a maister of y^t scooles. (I will not saye foolyshly) willyng Be­za, to reade the place by hym alledged, twice or thrice, Tertullians wordes be these. They alledge the scriptures, and with these their impudence, at the fyrst moue awaye. Also that the disputation with scriptures, nothyng auaileth, vn­lesse a man do altogether, eyther turne his stomake, or his brayne. And again. Therfore we must not appeale to the scriptures, neither contend w^t them, by whom there is eyther no victorye to be atchieued, or if there be any, it is verye vncertain. Furthermore Xātus said, y^e god, otherwise thā he intended (for that was his term) deliuered his doctryne in [Page] writing, abusig the autority of Chriso­stom, or of the author of the imperfecte work writtē vpō Mathew. And falslye touching y^e proeme of y^t work, wher ther is no suche thyng red. For these bee the wordes of y^e author. After y^t all the peo­ple of y^e Iewes, was fallē into y^e depth of sin, it was necessary y^t then a law shuld be writen, & the tables geuē, & warning & threates by thē. And this we see, hap­ned, not only to the holy mē of the olde testamēt, but euē of the new also. For Christ left nothing in writyng to hys apostles, but in stede of writing, promi­sed to geue thē the grace of y^e holy gost He (quoth he) wil teach you al thinges. Then he added also, y^t not onely y^e word [...] but also [...] was ge­uen of god wherof came al traditions. Also for the rule to discerne traditions, y^t not only the word, but also the nature & custom is to be considred. Accordyng to the saying of Paule the .i. Corint. xi. Nature it self teacheth you. And again, neyther, let vs not haue such a custome neyther the exaumples of the church of god, to be shorte, he rehearsed the same that Spensa had afo [...]e spoken.

[Page]Hereto Beza aunswered modestly at large, that to haue one selfe same tale doubled of diuers, is not mete for that conference or disputation, wherein any good ende or concorde should be sought For that of muche matter heaped toge­ther, the witts of man are confounded, so as therof, no good thing may aryse but confusion. That euen by their own iudgementes, if they had at any tyme vsed disputatiō, this order could not be allowed. Neuerthelesse he hoped, that so farre as his memory would serue hym, to reherse their reasons, he would light­ly satisfy them. And therwithal, he desi­red the Queene and the rest of y^e nobles, hereafter to take some better order for their conference.

First therfore, wheras Spensa had sayd, that he much meruayled, that we toke vpon vs to teache, forasmucheas the ordinary successors had neuer layde handes vpon vs: he answered, that this is not the chiefe signe of lawfull calling For the chiefe and substantiall partes be, the inquisition of learning and lyfe, and choyse and election. These be the ordinary meanes. To y^e which although [Page] the outwarde ceremonies of laying on handes, be not adioyned, yet the mini­stery is lawful notwithstanding. And that we, which wer there present to de­fende our doctrine, and the rest of oure felowes, wāted not also the third mark. And neded not to stay on that poynte, forasmuch as we were both chosen and confirmed. For handes were layed vpō vs, and we lawfully presented to oure churches, which accepted our ministery if it be obiected, that those of whom we were instituted and which layed their handes on vs, had no autority of the or­dinary successors, neyther were chosen of the people: the answere is ready, that thinges being in such confusiō, and the ecclesiasticall order disordred, we dyd not stay for y^e layeng on of their handes whose vicious lyfe, superstition, & false doctrine, we haue alwayes reprehēded. For in vaine should we haue sought, to haue bin allowed of them, whiche wyth deadly hate pursued y^t truth, & the defē ­ders therof. And y^t we wanted not the presidētes of y^e Prophetes, to whō none were more deadly enemies, than the Priestes, forasmuch as thei themselues wer turned out of kind & no longer res­pected [Page] their office therfore, forasmuche as against thē chiefly, the lord had styr­red vp the prophets, they ought not to seke for, at their hands the confirmatiō of y^t autority, which they had receyued of god. Nether did they intrude thēsel­ues into the ministery but whē thei had once the cōmaūdemēts of god, thei wer cōpelled euē w^t the peril of theyr liues, to execute thesame. And y^t thesame, we in these our times, ought to do also. Furthermore, y^• extraordinary calling, is not alwaies proued by miracles. For y^t which we read of Moses, & the signes shewed by him, hapned not so, in all the rest. For by what miracles did Esay Daniel, Amos, & Zachary proue theyr calling? Or Paulus afore he did execute his charge. Did he stay for the layīg on of hāds? but to proue himself an apostle he did not so much cite his miracles, of the which he had great store, as y^• fruite of his preachyng, & the cōuersiō of those people whō y^e lord had turned at his calling. For writing to the Corinthiās he saith: You are y^e seale of my apostleship in y^t lord.Cor. ix. Thesame truely say, of so gret a nūber, as by our preching haue, rece­ued y^e gospel, agaīst al the power of mā [Page] nether seke we any other cōfirmatiō of our calling & ministery. For the power & vertue of god hath sufficiētly shewed it self, forasmuch, as nether prysō, fier, banishmēt nor death could stay y^esame. But quoth Spēsa, shew me but euē one example w^tin these .xv. C. yeares, like to your case. Although (quoth Beza) al hy­stories are not writtē, yet I donbie not but there may be foūd som. But if ther be none, it is no incōuenience to say, y^t god in our daies hath done y^•, which he neuer did afore. Afterwards we cam to traditiōs, which Spēsa made equal w^t y^t scripture, & [...]ātus preferred aboue it, as more certain thā it. But to y^e place of Paul, which reuoketh vs to y^• scripturs Spēsa āswerd, y^t Paul speketh generally of doctrine. Which forth w^e was āswered not of vs only, but of an other singularly wel learned mā, which was there presēt, that it is writē, ther [...] Moreouer we said, it was new & strāge y^t Xātus wold haue y^e traditiōs more certain thā y^e scripture, for y^• by reasō of many interpretatiōs, may be vncertayne. For, what foūdatiō shal our faith haue, if we doubt of it? neither is it therefore incertain bicause many times mē mis­apply it, mangle it, & abuse it. For the [Page] truthe abides alway one, which though it be somtymes darkned, yet continueth her force euen to y^e last. Neither, bicause heretikes abuse it, ought we therefore, the lesse to fly to it. What wrōg he doth vs, in cōparing of Anabaptistes & other diuelish sectes, our writings wel testify. They admit onely som part of y^e Scrip­tures. We accept & allow y^e whole: they credit new reuelations. We say y^t suche thynges are out of place, sithe Christe hath manifested al things fully vnto vs. As to y^e place of Tertulliā, wherof [...]an­tus warned Beza, twice or thrice to read it: I (quoth Beza) haue read it more than xx. tymes, & am so well assured, that you shall finde it as I saye, as I perfectly know, y^t you shal neuer finde in Chriso­stom, that which you in his name haue falsely alleged: But do not deny, y^t Ter­tullian did manye tymes passe his bon­des. Neuerthelesse, if we cōsider towhat ende he spake it, you shal perceiue, how lightly, this which you thynke to make so much w^t you, shalbe answered. For this was his purpose, y^t we should not in vaine reason w^t heretikes. As Paule coūsaileth vs, after y^e first or seconde ad­monition [Page] to leaue them. But what maner of heretikes were those? Suche as beig conuicted of their heresy by the worde of god, tryfled in vayne. What were the traditions, whiche he layde a­gainst them? Such as are conteyned in the writinges of the Apostles, and per­tayn to the chiefe articles of our fayth, and which the whole church professed. Fyrst therfore, we should haue ben cō ­uicted by the same worde, that if we be in any erroure, we might thereby bee withdrawen from it. But to bee confu­ted by tradition whiche is neither Apo­stolical, nor yet grounded on their wri­tings, y^t truely is asmuch, as to opē the gate to all deceite and vtterly to ouer­turne the certaintye of oure faith. But why doth Tertullian himself vpbrayde the heretikes? saying: Let them beleue the scriptures, if they can do it beleuig agaynst the scriptures: except we ought to flye to them, and by them confute all errors? If these rytes whyche at thys daye our aduersaries haue brought in, were Apostolike, the churche would al­wayes haue vsed them. Neither should they haue had so late beginning. Now, [Page] forasmuche as the authors of them are wel knowē, & described in histories, cer­tainly, it cannot be said, that they came first frō the Apostles. Falsly also is the name of traditions refrained to those things, which are deliuered frō hande to hande, in as muche as this woorde [...] is referred, euē to those things y^t are writen. Tertulliā refuteth those that taught, y^t the apostles had not sufficiently instructed vs in al things, y^t thei might leaue a place for new tradi­tiōs, as things reuealed by y^e holy gost. Thei are wōt to say (quoth he) y^t the apo­stles knew al, but neuertheles, put not al in writing. In both pointes blaming christ, as though he had either insuffici­ētly instructed his apostles, or els had chosē such simple mē, as were not able to vtter their mindes in writing. For what sober mā would beleue y^t the apo­stles wer ignorāt in any thing whō the lord appointed as maisters▪ &c. To y^e A­postles therfore we must fly, whō christ sēt to preach. But how shall we be assu­red of their doctrine, but by their wry­tings? Was not vnctiō geuē vnto thē, for this cause? y^t they might deliuer and [Page] write vnto vs, al things necessarye for our saluatiō, not to leaue vs douting, or vncertain. And herby is, y^t place of Chrisostom easily discussed, which was earst aleged, where he saith, y^t Christ left no­thing in writing to his apostles. Wuld he therfore, y^t thei shuld write nothing? No sure. But therfore he taught them, therfore he reueled it vnto them by his spirit, y^t the same doctrine once written might remain for euer. But thei taught som [...]things which are not cōtained in their writings. Neither y^t truely do we deny. But we saie, y^t there is nothing pertaining to our saluation. Whyche they haue not left in writing, other thi­ges which cōcerne rites, & ciuill dyscy­pline, they might easily teach by worde of mouth. But because y^esame chaunge, according to time & place, they woulde not bu [...] then our consciences therwith. As to the obiection of the names of vn­begotten, consubstātiality, trinity, bap­tisme of children, although the playne names & wordes be not in y^e scriptures, yet the thinges themselues, that is to wit, the sence and grounde. Whereof the names are gathered, is playnelye [Page] expressed and shewed in the scripture. These thinges were long debated, and sometymes the talke interrupted, Xan­tus spake muche, and affirmed a great while, that the virginitie of Mary after her deliuerance, coulde not bee proued by the scriptures. Neither yet y^t yong children ought to be baptised. Neuer­thelesse, bothe were proued by the au­thoritie of the scripture. But he ceassed not to bable after the maner of y^e Sor­bonistes, as though he shoulde wynne the victorie, with triflyng and talking. His talke litle liked so honorable anau­dience, as it, that was full of bitternes, sharpenesse and stomake. Our men in the meane tune, modestly stayd them­selues. And albeit manye of our aduer­saries spake at once confusedly, yet we counted it better to for beare than to be counted lyke to suche trouble some tal­kers. At this alteration the Cardynall stepped in, and as though this question had ben sufficiently debated, made an end therof. Or rather, whē he coulde no longer beare, y^e proud & insolēt talke of Xātus he brake of his talk. Hereof, ne­uerthelesse y^e Sorhonists, as if y^e mater had ben cōcluded, or sētence geuen on [Page] theyr side, w^e vain arrogāce, pe [...]waded thēselues y^t they had won the victorye. Neither is it any marueyle, for neither could we answer many of theyr reasōs, which they spake all at once, so that we could not vnderstand thē nether would we interrupt the Cardinal in his talke. But he, taking on him y^e part of a iudge dyd closelye conclude, y^t whatsoeuer is written, ought to be referred to the au­thoritie of the charch: & that her trady­tions wer in all pointes to be obserued. Afterwardes, he turned his talke to the Lordes supper, affirming & protestyng that he woulde goe no farther, tyll we agreed of that article. For this (sayd he) is the controuersye that troubles most men. And sayd further, y^t we had neces­sarily cōpelled him to talke therof. For y^• in our fyrst metyng, we had plainlye fhewed our mynde therof, which nowe filled al Fraunce with diuers & daun­gerous rumour, and farther was im­printed, and sette abrode. He obiected vnto vs, the confession of Awgspurge, & asked, whether we wold subscribe ther to. We asked agayne, whether they woulde bee contente to allowe it in all pointes, then they beganne to trifle.

[Page]Furthermore, they obiected other o­piniōs of certain ministers of the Ger­mans, which they said wer sēt vnto thē neither wer they ashamed, to desyre & intreate vs, to subscribe vnto thē. But y^t was done for a pollicy, to thintente, y^t if we denied so to do, he might set vs at strife with the Germans, and make vs to be hated of them. And if we did agre, then they as conquerours shoulde try­umph ouer vs: and make a commō iest of vs, as of light and vndiscrete persōs, and so cōdemne our opinion. To auoid this doubt, we answered that we came thither, to defende y^e confession of oure faith and had no other commaūdemēt or authoritie of our churches▪ Therfore we required that we might folowe the order of our confession: and that euerye article, might be seuerally and distinct­ly weyed, so that it mighte plainlye ap­peare, wherein we agree, and wherein we disagree. For bothe the order of na­ture, and also the waye to concorde re­quireth, that those thinges, whiche be playnest and easiest, should first be hād­led▪ Furthermore, forasmuch as the sa­cramentes depend vpon y^e doctrine: It [Page] is most necessary, first to reason of it. With al this we nothing preuailed. For the Cardinal continued in his purpose. We saw also y^t he attempted this, y^t we with inequall hande, might departe the conferre, that y^esame might seeme to be broken of, by our stubbornesse. Which we thought good by al meanes to pre­uēt. Therfore, we desired to haue their writing to the which they would haue vs subscribe, that we might deliberate therof. Ther with all they brought forth a copie of the article of y^e lordes supper, takē (as they said) out of the confession, of Awgspurge. But differing neuerthe lesse: much therfrom, as it may wel ap­peare by the reading thereof. For this it was, with a stedfast faith we cōfesse, that in the most reuerend sacrament of the Lordes body and bloud, truly, real­ly, and sacramentally, the true bodye & bloude of Christ is offred, to the cōmu­nicantes, and receiued by them. Herto they added, the confession of certayne ministers of Wittenberge, set forth [...] the yere of our of our lord god. 1559. So we departed for that day, and the mat­ter was deferred till the morowe. [Page] Wherfore when we perceiued, that by this requeste they minded, to driue vs to this inconuentence, that eyther we should denie our own confession, or els breake of the conference, returnyng at the last, and calling on the name of god we determined rather to take the most vnequall and bniust conditions y^t could be offred, than to geue any occasyon, wherby it might seme, that we fled the conference. Therfore, the nexte day we prepared our selues to aunswere, way­tyng alwayes, when we should be com­maunded to come, when it was sygny­fyed to vs from the Queene, y^t thesame was deferred for twoo dayes. In the meane tyme, diuers tales were spred of vs, as that we were ouercome, and could not proue our ministery lawfully, and our aduersaries reioyced as con­querors, as though our hearts fainted, to be short, thei criūphed afore y^e victory But this theyr myrth cōtinued not lōg. For ii daies after, at oure returne we brought forth an āswer, more at large, & more perfect, to those things which a­fore wer ouer passed, & vsed such meanes as we could, to auoid the pollicy of oure [Page] aduersaries. It Beza rehersed in wry­tig. The effect of it was this: That we greatly maruelled, y^• wheras of late we had so aboundantly shewed, what is the church, what be her marks & how great her autority, y^t any reasonable manne might be satisfied ther w^t. Yet neuer the lesse, nothing was saide against it, but onely demaunded of vs, by what power we do administer the worde of GOD & sacramēts. And yet nothing ouerpassed y^• might make our cause odious & hate­ful. For to what purpose it was spoken we could not as yet wel perceue bicause we came not thither to administer the word or sacraments. But if an accompt shalbe demaūded of vs of those thinges which her to fore we haue don, thei must understād, y^e emōges vs, there are two sorts of ministers. One of those y^t teach in foren coūtreys, in y^e which theyr cal­ling is allowed. And of those it cannot iustly be demaūded here, wherfore they be ministers. Another sort is of thē whiche teach y^e gospel in this realm: whom we thought not to be sēt for hyther, to geue an accompt of their callig, but on­ly to cōfer & dispute of doctrine. Other­wise [Page] they might seme to bee sent for to plead their cause, as for som crime. Which we cannot think y^t the Queene or nobles in any wise minded. And yf y^e same be required, vnder y^e colour of cō ­ference & reasoning, it is verye far frō the meanes of cōcord, & reconcilement. For we cannot enter into such questi­ons & demaundes, w^t out the greate of­fence of y^e bishops, & other the Lords of spiritualtie. But none of vs all at anye time minded it, but purposed onelye to prosecute this holy purpose. I pray you if two parties agree to conferre, & af­terwardes the one demaunde of the o­ther. By what nower do you this? must it not needes ensue, that by suche que­stions they shal fall at bariance. As for example, setting a part the bishops, and other the spiritualtie of this realm, whō we are lothe to offende, let vs admytte that some straunge byshop enquireth of vs, by what authoritye, we minister the woorde and Sacramentes? And we againe aske of hym, by whom he was chosen and institute? Whether by the voices of the elders of his church, whe­ther he were desyred of the people, [Page] whether there wer any inquisitiō made of his life & doctrine? He woulde soone say yea. But he wuld soone be proued alter. Whereof we desier no other wit­nes, thā their own cōsciece which heare vs, & know y^t whole matter perfectly. If he would obsect against vs, that we are no ministers, because we wante the laying on of hands: we would reply a­gain, y^t he is no bishop, because in in­stitutions of hym, those things wer not obserued, which are appointed, for the chief & substantiall poyutes, by the law of god. And when our talke wer more, whether perhappes we would goe far­ther, and say in this sort. You boaste of the laying on of handes, which whoso­euer lacketh, you thynk no perfect mi­nister: what if you wante the two other points which are the chiefest? Namely, inquisition of lyfe & learning, & the e­lection of y^e elders of your church? may ye not then, much lesse thā we, bragge of the name of a pastor? It was decreed by y^e councel of Chalcedon, y^t the ordy­nation of y^e bishop, or prtest, shoulde bee frustrate, & of no force, which is not specially appointed to some one churche. [Page] And forasmuche as they would haue it doyde to the iniury of hym y^t ordayneth it, much more may we obiect thesame, agaynst the bishop, y^t thus reasoneth w^t vs, inasmuch he is destitute of the two chiefest conditions, prescribed by the a­postle.i. Tim. iii a. Titus. i Another thyng also, may bee ad­ded hereto, which we speak vnwilling, neuerthelesse we are enforced therto, y^e euery man maye perceiue, y^t this dispu­tation of our vocation may not be tou­ched w^t out great peril. If we should ask of that same bishop, who layde their hā ­des on him, or whether he bought it not with money, what would he aunswer? He would deny y^t he bought it, and he would say that those bishops layd hāds on him which had autority therto of the church. Again, if we should enquire how much his authoritie cost hym, he would say he bought it not, but yet he woulde confesse, y^t he gaue some thousandes of crownes. As though he shoulde saye, I boughte not the bread, but the corne, wher w^t the bread was made. This rea­sonyng, if it should be parted by the au­tority of the coūcels & canōs of the chur­ches, woulde shame a greate many by­shops & pastours.

[Page]And sure we would not enter therein, least any man should be offēded therby. Neyther wyll we yet touche it, or sek [...] to reuenge oure selues, only we mynde to shew, y^• we dyd of late purposely an­swere shortly & briefly, to those thyngs, y^• wer layd agaynst vs, for y^t we woulde haue all gently and myldly handled. But as for the Lords supper, we spake more sparely therof, bearyng with the infirmitte of some, whiche not accusto­med to y^t doctrine, are wont to be offen­ded, assoone as they heare anye thing, y^• is strange, or vnwōted to thē. And tru­ly, we had rather, y^t thei thēselues shuld learne thesame, out of the aunciēt wri­tings of the Doctors of the church, th [...] by vs, which we hoped should haue com to passe, if my lord Cardinal had kepte his promisse. For he promised opēly, to instruct vs chiefly in this article of the lords supper, out of their writings whi­che wrote therof, w^t in .v. C. yeres after Christ: so y^t we would now agree to re­ceyue the light, if it appered, y^t thesame was hitherto hiddē frō vs. To satisfye this our expectatiō, or rather the expec­tatiō of an infinite nūber of mē, he seperated [Page] this article, frō others verye ne­cessary, & gaue it to vs alone. And requi­red vs to subscribe to it: saying y^• other­wise the conference would be brokē of, yf we should plead our cause in prison, you woulde scarce vse suche talke to­wardes vs, as to saye subscribe here­to, or els we condemne you. Certainly, this is no part of your charge. For that office, which ye now professe, requyreth y^• if we walk in error, you should reduce vs, beyng once cōuict therof, into y^e way and exhort vs with wholesom doctrine. And chiefly those, which offer thēselues to yelde an accompt of theyr fayth, (by the scriptures.) And truly, if thys kinde of condemnation be straunge, certain­ly muche more straunge is the way and meanes, wherby you procede to y^esame. We came together here chieflye for .ii. causes. First, to render an accompte to god, to you, & to y^e whole worlde of oure fayth. Not to trauel for gods cause, the kings, & the whole kingdom, & to fynde some way and meanes, wherby y^e trou­bles late stirred in religion may be ap­peased. Now if we bee reiected, or dys­missed, w^tout leaue or liberty to dispute [Page] whatsoeuer shalbe done vnto vs, shal be declared to all Christendome: & the olde tumultes shalbe nothyng appeased, as thei know right wel, which go about to preuēt it. If y^e matter did only belōg to vs y^t are here present, truly at your ple­sure, & w^t out peril, as farre (as mā may iudge) you might dayly w^t vs. But you must cōsider y^t we stand here, in y^e name of al those, y^t professe y^e gospel, not onely in this realme, but euen in Swicerlād, Poole, Germany, England and Scot­land, whiche all looke for som certayne & happy end of this assēbly. What may they thinke, when in stede of disputatiō & conference, which was promised vs, they shall vnderstande that y^e tenth part of one article was offred to vs, wyth this addition? Subscribe to this, or els go no further. And yf we doe subscrybe what shall you be the better? They that sente vs, wyll desyre to knowe whether we were compelled therto by force, or els conuict, by good & sure argumente. So what els shall happen of this order, which you now begin to take, thā gret offence and grudge? wee beseche the Queene therfore, y^t she wyll not suffer [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] this holy purpose, to be brokē of, but cō ­maund y^t certain learned mete men, be chosen out, y^t will wyllynglye conferrs with vs. Neuerthelesse, least we should seme to answer nothyng, to those thyn­ges, that haue ben obiected agaynst vs, whatsoeuer M. Spēsa gaue vs writen, out of Caluins booke, we receyue & al­lowe. But as to the article, whyche my Lord Cardinal offred vs, take or rather gelded out of the cōfessiō of Awgspurge: we say, there are many thynges therin to be considred. First, y^t the whole con­fession should haue ben offred vnto vs. For it is agaynst reason, to proffer vs one article without the reste. Then we woulde knowe whether of theyr owne heads priuately (whiche we are lothe to think, neuerthelesse we woulde gladlye knowe the truth therof) or elles in the name of all the Lords, they offer vs the confusion of Augspurge: that al doutes taken away, we may more freely con­ferre. For so it would come to passe, y^e thanks shuld generally be geuē to god, for y^• my L. Cardinal, & y^e rest of y^e lords, reiect trāsubstātiatiō, which now, by y^• cōmon cōsent of al churches, aswell in [Page] Germany, as in other realmes is con­demned. If we be required to subscribe to any writing, it is mete also, that the Cardinal of Loraine, in the name of al his, should subscribe thesame also. That the churches by whom we were sente, may perceiue, that we met not altoge­ther vnprofitably about these matters. If my Lord Cardinall, wil constantlye perseuer in that mynde, that he wil ad­mit the whole confession of the Ger­maines, we hope y^t we shall come nier, and at the last to that point, that we shal easely satisfy you: And shewe a ready way to peace and concorde. In the meane tyme, we affirme, that Christe is present in the vse of his Supper, and there doth after, geue, and exhibite vn­to vs, his body and bloud, by the power and operation of the holy ghost. And if we do receiue, eate & drinke spiritually and by fayth, the selfe same bodye that dyed for vs, and the selfe same bloud, y^• was shed for our saluation. That we may be bones of his bones, and flesh of his flesh. And that we may be quickned thereby, and receiue, whatsoeuer is ne­cessary to our saluation. We desired [Page] also of the Queene, if this satisfied her not, bicause it is hard, to entreate of so great a mystery with fewe words, that we might speake therof, in more large and ample sort. And that we were rea­dy, to do it, whensoeuer the Cardinall of Loraine, would shew his authorities out of the olde doctours. Moreouer, we earnestly desired, that there mighte bee some equall, and tolerable order of con­ference or disputation, taken, suche as we desired, euen from the beginning. And we protest that therby it should ap­peare to all men, that we came not thi­ther, to stirre contention, but rather, to finde meanes of concord, in soūde doc­triue. For we desired nothing els, but that those thinges restored to y^• Lordes Supper, which were takē from it, and taking away those thinges that were il added, it might be restored to the olde perfection. Which to compasse, we de­creed not to spare our liues, but in so good a cause, to yelde and render oure liues and heartes, to God, the king, the nobles, and the common quietnesse, as well of this realme, as of all Christen­dome. With thys oration oure aduer­saries [Page] were greatly amased, but chief­ly, with the first parte thereof, wherby they sawe the glory of their succession and callig stained. For they could haue heard nothing, more greuous or vn­welcome to them. Therfore the Cardi­nall freatting, & much disquieted, said: we were now come to a good poynt, y^• we were not content to inuade the dig­nine of Priestes. But we muste also touche the kyngs maiestie. For he pri­uyly wroughte to bring vs in hate, as though we had accused the king, for ta­king away the elections of Bishops & Abbates, as though the fault were in y^• kyng that none of them were chosen, but as for themselues, they sayd, they were ordeined and instituted, by the king, to whom the people had geuen al their right and power therin. Where­fore, if we would disproue that, we must speake to the kyng, to whom it belon­ged, to maintayne his lawes and ordi­naunces. And that we were ignoraunte how they were ordeined, when all the people wer came together by the knol­ling of bells, and therefore gessed, of thinges that we knew not.

[Page]To conclude all hys talke was full of tauntes, whereby he thought to kyndle the Queenes wrath towardes vs, as though, we accused the kyng of Tiran­ny. But that slaunder was easely auoi­ded. For it was forthwith shewed, that therby is the confusiō, of the true eccle­siasticall order and state, made muche more manifest. For that kinges were fame to set to their handes, to reforme that horrible disorder, which ambition, enuy, contention and such like, had lōg­tyme bredde amonges the Canonicall Priestes, Monkes, and all the rest of y^• ecclesiasticall order. And could by no o­ther meanes remedy that sore, than by taking from them the liberty of choyse which so long tyme, they had shamefully, and beastly abused. And as to their common forme of ordaining Bishops, and pastours, it is right well knowen, what a iest it is, and therefore we wyll waste no time in speaking of it. For we entred not into that matter, to handle it at large, but onely to shew that oure mynistery, which in thys ruine, and so great confusion, of the church, the Lord hath raysed, is lawful, and vnworthely [Page] mocked at. You your selues began first to talke thereof, (quoth the Cardinall) you first inuaded our flocke. We came not into your garrisons, but you into oures, Neither would I wish you shuld thinke your selues as good as we, nor talke as ye woulde to youre felowes. Our estate is somewhat higher than yours. Whē we saw him speake cruel­ly in this sort, we thought good to pro­uoke him no longer, least we mighte seme oure selues to haue hindered the disputation. Then he began againe to be earnest on vs, to know some reason why we would not subscribe to the cō ­fession of Augspurge. We answered him againe, y^• it was vnreasonable, to require y^• of vs, which do not allow it in al pointes. But, if they thēselues would first subscribe, it would be y^e easier way to reconcile vs to thē. And y^• we knowe not, whether he of hys owne head, or els by the cōsente of al the rest, did put in that bill, whiche he would haue sub­scribed. I (quoth the Cardinall) am sworne to no man. And therefore, will I neither subscribe to the confession of Awgspurge, neyther yet to you.

[Page]And yet I wil be ready to subscribe both to them and you, if you thinke truely. And y^• I offer nothing to you of mine own head, these my brethrē that be pre­sent, can witnesse. Which when he sayd he turned his body, towardes the reste of the Cardinals and Bishops. Which neither graunted to his saying by word or gesture, nor greatly withstode it. Therfore, for asmuche as they woulde not subscribe, we sayd, they coulde not require it of vs. This done and appea­sed, the Cardinall entred into talke of y^e Lordes Supper, and set his common doctors to vs. Master Spensa, began to vrge the presence of the body of Christ in his Supper, so that he enclosed the body within the bread. And said, it culd no otherwise be imagined, but the bo­dy must nedes be ioyned with y^e bread, and reproued vs, as though we swar­ued from our master Caluine, whose boke he had alleaged. We sayd, we dif­ferred frō hym in nothing, and that we were ready to subscribe to all the con­tentes of that boke. Then he vrged the name of substaunce whiche Caluine [...]seth. We answered, that we wont [...]o [Page] vse that terme, least men should thinke, that we fain either some new or ymaginary body, or some phantastical recei­uing therof, but neuerthelesse, that we are no otherwise made partakers, of y^• body, than by sayth, and power of the holy ghost. Hereto the right reuerende master Peter Marti [...], added many thinges, and according to his singuler lear­ning, besides many other thinges, which perteine to the order of y^e church he handled this question also, shortlye, plainly, and eloquently. He answered also diuers things which both the Car­dinall, and Spēsa had obiected in their orations in the first meting, and chief­ly those things, which concerne the au­thoritie, and amendmente of counsels. Which so pricked the Cardinal, that he would no more reply vnto hym. And whyles he was handling and declaring diuers matters more playnly, bicause he spake somewhat after y^• Italiā ma­ner, the Cardinal rose, and sayd in a great chafe, that he would talke wyth hys own countrey mē. And yet marti [...] spake so plainly & distinctly, y^• not only y^• Cardinal being skilful in y^• Italiā tōg, [Page] but also euery ignoraunt man, myghte well perceiue him. Spensa somewhat talked to him, herefore cōmending him aboue the rest, that no man this day li­ued, that had written more largely or copiously of this question than he. Afore Spensa was answered: a Spanyarde, one of those, that call themselues Ies­wites, desired that he might haue leaue to speake. His talke was sharp, & bitter and nothing pleased the audience. He assayed to turne al mennes myndes. From hearing this cause, as it whiche was already sufficiently knowen. The suttel [...]ies and craftes where with here­tykes are wont to creepe into mennes heartes, he applied to vs. Calling vs foxes, and dogges. And at the last con­cluded that we ought to be reiected, and referred, to the counsel of Trent, which the Pope of Rome had proclaymed, saying that we should haue free comming thither, and the Popes safeconduyte, that there the controuersies of fayth & religion ought to be iudged, of y^e which, wemē, souldiors or other not exercised in diuine matters, were not mete to be iudges. Thus as it were, perswading [Page] the Queene, he willed her to send vs to Trent. Hitherto his talke, although it fauored bitter hate, and malice, yet to some semed graue and seuere. But at y^• laste, he played the foole so kindly, as if it had ben in a stage. For when he en­treated of y^e Lordes Supper, & promy­sed by a playne similitude to proue the presence therein, he sayd it was euen lyke, as if any Prince, when he hath at­chieued victory on his enemies, to cele­brate the remembraunce therof, would institute yearly playes, whereby bothe his warre, and victory might be repre­sented to al mennes eyes. And if any man in those playes shoulde represente the person of the Prynce, That would so much the more moue y^e min­des of y^• beholders, to remēber it, but if y^• king himself would be presēt, & shew hymselfe there, then thesame would be most noble and excellent. Euen so sayd he, that Christ himselfe, when he insti­tuted the remembraunce of his passion would also be present, and in the same. About the ende of hys oration he assai­ed to enflame the Queene agaynst vs, [Page] and made many mournfull cōplaintes faining himselfe to wepe, after the ma­ner of those iesters, which ar common­ly apte to counterfayte any gesture. Hereto Beza aunswered, that the Spa­niard talked, as though we were alrea­dy conuict of heresy. But for asmuchas no man hitherto, hath shewed vs oure error, he might haue done much better, if he had reserued, the scoffes which he bestowed on vs, to hymselfe and his fe­lowes. Bicause we can not se how they touche vs. And as to his councel, that y^t Queenes maiestie was not so bare of counsell, that she neded it. But that she and her councell sawe well inough, what is best to be done, and by what meanes, they may prouide for common quietnesse. But that which he sayd of y^e Lordes supper, that he made nothing els of, than a play of y^• history of Christ (bicause it was to blasphemous & beast­ly) beyng ouerpassed, he turned toward master Spensa. He vrged the playne wordes of the Lord. Thys is my bo­dy, and the consent of the Euāgelistes, whiche nothing differ therein. We aunswered that thesame Euangelistes [Page] sayd, thys is my bloud of the new testa­ment. And an other. Thys cup is the new Testament, in my bloud. Whych without a figure can not be vnderstan­ded. And hereby it appeareth, that it is a Sacramental maner of speach. Which Austine teacheth most plainly in his .xxiii. Epistle to Boniface. If the Sacramentes (quoth he) had not a certayne lykenesse, of those thynges, wherof thei are Sacramentes, they wer no Sacra­mentes at al. Of thys lykenesse moste cōmonly, they take the names of those thyngs, wherof they are Sacramēts. Lyke as therfore, after a certayne ma­ner, y^• Sacrament of the body of Christ is the body of Christ, and y^e Sacramēte of y^e bloud of Christ, is y^e bloud of christ, so is also the Sacrament of fayth, faith it selfe. But Spensa sayde that y^• letted not, but y^t we ought simply, & without figure to credite the wordes of y^e Lord. We sayd: that a Sacramentall maner of speache, coulde not be withoute fi­gure. But if there be a figure in our Sacramentes (quoth Spensa) they shal not then muche differ, from the Sa­cramentes of the old Testamēt, which [Page] are altogether figuratine. And we say, that they were a figure and shadowe of that truthe, which was fulfilled to vs in Christ. Otherwise, we must nedes confesse, that they were figures of a fi­gure. Which is most vnreasonable, we denyed that consequence, bicause y^• fi­gures, appointed by God in the olde Testament, are referred to the truth it selfe, wherof y^e fathers wer partakers, but a farre of, before the commynge of Christ. But we are nye at hande. After he was offred for vs. Neither do we say that we are as yet vnder figures, but y^• we nede yet, as long as we lyue in this body, visible signes and Sacraments, and in them we say ther are figuratiue or Sacramentall maners of speache, which neuerthelesse proueth not, but y^• we haue the truthe, notwithstandinge, these signes. To cōclude we agree with Bernarde saying.Bernard. sermone .xxxiii. suꝑ [...]antica, The truth is set be­fore me: but in a Sacramēt. The Angel is fed with the meale of the corne, or the perfect grayne. But I must be contēt, with the barke of the Sacramentes, w^t the braūe of his flesh, with the chaffe of the letter, and the cloke of fayth.

[Page]But sure, howsoeuer these be tempered and swetened, with the aboundasice of spirit and fayth, certainly the barke of the Sacrament, and the fine boulted meale of the corne, fayth and hope, re­membraunce, and presence, eternity & present tyme, the countenaunce & the glasse, the ymage of God, and y^e forme of a seruaunt, are not like pleasaunt in cast. Wherby it is well proued, that we truely are made partakers of y^• truthe, but do not yet fully enioy thesame, bi­cause oure weakenesse requireth the Sacramente, the barke and the cloke. After thys communication with Spē ­sa was ended, there stepte vp an other doctoure, one of y^e Sorbonistes, vrging agayne. By a suttel and crafty meanes as he thought hymselfe the exposition of these the Lordes wordes. This is my body, & whē he asked what we thought was meant by thys pronoūe, (hoc) we aunswered that bread was meant therby, and that the body was speken ther­of, so y^• therby we might wel perceine y^• the bread is a signe of the body. They on the contrary syde: Sayd y^• this pro­noūe. (Hoc) is of y^e neutre gender, & can [Page] not by the rules of Grammer, be refer­red to the bread, but was induuduum va­gum. And onely to note the body, as if a man should saye. This is oyle. This is hony. Thys is a building. And suche lyke. Therein imitating Durand. Whom Gardyner also an open ene­mye of the Ghospell, and alleaged by them, dyd folowe. We shewed, that that repugned wyth the nature of a Sacramente, forasmuche as, if it lacke a signe, if it be brought to nothynge, or made as nothyng, it ceasseth to bee a Sacrament. And it is a great maruell that none of the olde fathers could see thys fiction of induuduum vagum. But thys satisfied them not. And therefore repeating thesame continually, wyth great cryes, they ceassed not after the maner of the Sorbonistes, to babble til nyght. Yea and one of them, foolishlye & impudently threatned Beza. Saying: Oh, I would we had thee within oure colledge. We in the meane tyme eyther helde our peace, or modestly obiected certayne argumentes, til the noise wer whusshed, but bicause they wuld nedes eyther wynne, or seeme to wynne, with [Page] trifeling or loude crying, we preuayled nothyng. Wherefore to be shorte, we sayd, that all the auncient fathers made with vs, and we woulde be iudged by them. Neither did we depart, tyll the Cardinal pronused vs, to sende vnto vs the authoritie of Austene, & other aun­cient fathers, whereby oure opinion is condemned. But we could neuer haue them. He meant hereafter to conferre by wrytyng, bicause he saw that by our talke, God opened the eares of many, but chiefely of the nobles. Afterwardes the order of our disputatiō was altered. For there were fyue chosen to conferre with vs, and those such as passed all the reste, in learning, witte, and modestye. Monluke the Byshop of Valētyne, Ca­lius Sigensis an other Bishop, the Ab­bot of Saligne, the Abbot of Botillery, and doctor Spensa. Agaynst those wer chosen on our part, doctor Peter Mar­tir, Theodore Beza. Augustine Harlo­rate, Iohn Spina. Nicholas Gallasius We agreed of y^e order, place, tyme, and secretaryes, whyche shoulde regyster the questions proposed, and the reasons on eyther part.

[Page]And then the selfe same day, which was the last of September, we began to de­liberate with what order we should be­gin the disputation. We wished and de­sired, that we might orderly prosecute euery article of our confession. Whiche request to be reasonable they thēselues confessed, saying that they coulde not allow that prosperous order, that began at the last, yet bicause we were alreadye entred into that article, they thought it good to finish it, afore we came to the rest.

Therfore the next daye at oure re­turne, we entreated of the presence of y^e body of Christ in his Supper. The Ab­bote of Saluine, brought forth a place out of an auncient Greke copy of Ciri­lus a Bishop of Ierusalē, wherof there was no long reasoning, bicause it made much with vs. At the last, after muche alteration we concluded thus. That in that respect, that fayth makes those thynges presente, that are promysed, & that same fayth, doth moste truely re­ceiue the body and bloud, of our Lorde Iesus christ, by y^e vertue of y^e holy gost, [Page] in that respecte, we confesse the presēce of his body and bloude in his holy sup­per, in the whiche he offereth, giueth, and exhibyteth, trulye the Substauce of hys body, and bloude, by the opera­cion of hys holye Spirite. And we doe receiue & eate, spyritually and by sayth that very body, whiche dyed for vs, y^• we may be bones of hys bones, & fleshe of his fleshe, y^t therby we may be quick­ned & receyue whatsoeuer is necessary to our saluatiō. A copye of this conclu­sion those that cōserred with vs, gaue to the rest of the byshops and doctours y^• were at Poyssye. But they alowed it not, wherefore, the nexte daye, another was proposed vs, wherein there was somewhat chaunged. For that whiche we attribute to fayth, it attributed to y^e worde. That when we perceiued was done of purpose, y^• it beyng left doubt­full, euery man might interprete the sense therof at his plesure, least any mā should therby be deceiued, we woulde by no meanes admitte for, forasmuche as we came together there, to prouide for the quietnes of our conscience, we endeuoured, as muche as laye in vs [Page] to withstand all error and doubte. Ne­uertheles, least we should seeme to stick vppon wordes, we were contented, y^t they shoulde chaunge the forme of the wryting, so they altered nothing of y^e sense. This forme therfore that folowes they thought better, and promised to moue all the byshops to agre there to. We doe confesse, that Christe in hys holy supper, doth truly offer, gyue, & exhibite, the substance of hys body and bloud, by y^e operacion of the holy ghost: and that we receyue, and eate, sacra­mentallye, spirytually, and by fayth, hys bodye that died for vs, that we may be bones of his bones, and fleshe of his fleshe. That there by we maye receyue lyfe, and whatsoeuer pertayneth to our saluaciō. But forasmuch as faith groū ­ded vppon the worde of god, doth make those thyngs presente, whiche are pro­mysed: by thys fayth we acknowledge, that we trulye, and verelye, receyue the true and naturall bodye of oure lorde Iesus Christe, by the vertue of the holy ghost. In this respect, we cōfesse y^e pre­sence, of y^e bodye & bloude, of oure lorde, & sauioure Iesus Christ, in his supper.

[Page]All thoughe thys forme litle differed from the other, yet they hoped that it woulde be better alowed of the lordes. And therfore they toke it with them, to communicate vnto them. We sayde y^t we woulde in lyke maner, communi­cate it with oure brethren, and reserue oure selues libertye, either to adde or expoūd any thinge therin, as we should thinke good.

When the Cardinalles had sene this forme, some of thē allowēd it very well & reioyced, as though we were tourned to them. And diuerse tales were there­vppon sprede of vs. But when it was perused by the doctours as well Sor­bonists, as others, they lightly chaūged their opinion. They added therto ther­fore, (as we here say) their opynion, whereby they shewed, what they thought wanted in it, or wherefore they thought it was not to be allowed. Also, thei made almost a Tragedy, betwixt y^e bishops, and those which had conferred with vs, and had put in y^• forme of this agremente of this article, among thē ▪ as thoughe they did either agree w^t vs, or mocke with them. But bycause it is [Page] no part of my purpose, to writ their cō ­tentions. I will willingly leaue it. And now I come to the declaration of oure opynion, as concernynge the presence of y^e body of Christ in his supper, which we reserued, free to our selues, least any doubtfulnes, bycause of y^e shortnes of our fyrst writing, myght breed any doubte or error.

We affirme, that no distāce of place may let our coniunction with the body and bloude of Christ, bycause y^e Lordes supper, is a heauenly thinge. And al­thought in the earthe, we receiue with the mouthe of oure body, the breade & wyne, the true Sacraments, & sygnes, of the body and bloud of Christ: yet by fayth, & the helpe of the holy ghost, our mindes to whom this foode doth chiefly belonge, caried vp to heauen, feede on the present body & bloude. And in this respecte we saye also, that the body is ioyned with the breade, and the bloude with the wyne. But no other wyse thā sacramentally, y^t is to say, not accordīg to place or situatiō, but bycause they do effectuously signify, y^• God giueth it to those that faythfullye communicate & [Page] they trulye receiue it by faythe.

Hereby it appereth in what sorte we thinke, of the presence of the bodye of Christ, in the Vse and Ministration of his Supper. For we admytte, nei­ther Transubstantiation nor Con­substantiation. Yea we refuse all ma­ner presence, wherby Christes body is thought to be in the earth, without quā tity: or is affirmed to be any otherwher than in heauen. We vse the name of substaunce to signifye, that we meante not our fayth, of anye fayned bodye or phantasme, neyther of the vertue only of Christs passion, or his merites only (which neuerthelesse, we confesse to be the spirituall catyng of Christes fleshe) but euen of the true and natural bodye of the sonne of God, which he toke of y^t virgin Mary, and afterwards was cru­cified, and raised again for vs, and now resteth in heauen, till suche tyme as yt shal com to iudge the quick & the dead.

And this was the ende of the Confe­rence. For they that conferred with vs beyng yll intreated of theyre fellowes, came not agayne. Neyther were anye other chosen in theyr roomes. Neyther [Page] since that tyme, dyd the Bishoppes sig­nefy any thing vnto vs, but though we oftentimes desired, that we myght goe forwardes, & handle y^e rest, that wer yet vntouched, we could vnderstād nothīg of their mindes therin, but y^t they min­ded to depart, & wer desirous to referre all thinges, to the councell of Trente. Therefore, ordre being taken for the leauiyng of a subsedy (wherof perhaps they were more careful, than of anye thing els,) & deliuering vp to the King the articles, whereof they had agreed among themselues, not making anye accompte of vs, but leauing vs in the court, they al repaired to their homes.