The firſt Reaſon.

FIrſt you ſaie, that ſuche controuerſies, maie not bée tried by the holie Scriptures, becauſe thei be mute and dumbe, vttering to vs, from the booke, nothing but onely the wordes, and not the ſenſe, wherein the life (as it were) of the Scripture, doeth conſiſt.

Howe fonde this Reaſon is. I thynke your ſelf ſhould ſee. For what ſence can there bee in woordes, that can not bee vttered by woordes? Or what wordes can any manne vſe in openyng the ſenſe of woordes written, but that the ſame beeyng ſette downe in writyng, maie as well open the cenſe: as thei might beeyng ſpoken and not written? you ſeeme to imagine, that we would haue the holy Scriptures (as thei bee written in bookes, & encloſed in coueringes) to be Iudge of ſuche matters, as you ſpeake of: for otherwiſe, how can you call them mute and dumbe?

The Prophet Ieremie was commaunded to write all the wordes of the Lorde againſt Iuda and Iſraell, and all other Nations, in a booke, and to cauſe the ſame to bee reade in the hearyng of all the people, and ſo he did, as appeareth in the .26. of his Propheſies, that euery manne might bee turned awaie, from their owne moſte wicked waies, and ſo the Lorde might be mercifull to them. After this manner would we haue controuerſies iudged by the Scriptures. Not as thei bee written and kepte ſecret in hookes: but beeyng reuereudly read, wayed, and conſidered, with the circumſtaunces of perſon, tyme and place, with all other neceſſarie circumſtaunces: ſo that the Readers, beyng willyng to haue their controuerſies ended, dooe ſubmit them ſelues to that iudgement, that thei ſhall finde in the Scriptures, ſo read, waied and conſidered.

As for your Opinatiue man and wrangler, that you ſpeake of: if he will ſtande ſtill in his opinion (as you your ſelf doe (notwithſtandyng that it is made manifeſt, by the holy Scriptures, that his opiniō is not right: he muſt bee taken for an Hereticke, and after one or twoo warnynges, reiected, beyng ſubuerted, as one that ſynneth euen condempned by his owne conſcience.Titu. 3.

The ſeconde Reaſon.

Your ſecond Reaſon I doe call falſe, for that you doe falſely reporte, that the holie Scriptures are full of harde and deepe miſteries. And for that you do falſely affirme, that S. Auſten did ſharpely reboke Honoratus▪ for ruſhyng ſo boldely into the holie Scriptures, where as he would not be ſo bolde, as to take vpon him to vnderſtand ſuche a Poet as Terence was without a Maiſter.

Firſte, I would wiſhe you to weigh well the wordes of S. Paule, written to Timothie. Doe thou (ſaieth S. Paule to Timothie)2. Tim. 3. continue in thoſe thynges whiche thou haſt learned, and are committed vnto thee, knowyng of whom thou haſt learned them, and that thou haſt known (euen from thine Infancie) the holy Scriptures, which are ſufficient to inſtructe thee to ſaluation, through that faithe whiche is in Chriſte Ieſus. Euery Scripture that was written by diuine inſpiratiō, is profitable to teache, to correct, to reproue, and to inſtructe in righteouſneſſe, that the man of God maie be perfectly inſtructed to euery good worke.

If all Scriptures, bee ſo full of harde and deepe miſteries (as you haue ſaied) then can not any Scripture bee ſo profitable to teache &c. As Sainct Paule telleth Timothie: That all Scriptures be, neither can the man of GOD bee thereby perfectly inſtructed to euery good worke.

We reade,Luk. 24. that our Sauiour Chriſte, did ſharply reprehende his two Diſciples, as he walked with them towardes Emaus, for that thei were ſo dull and harde to beleeue, that whiche the Prophetes had ſo plainly ſpoken. Ought not Chriſte (ꝙ he) to ſufter theſe thinges, and ſo to enter into his glorie? As though he ſhould haue ſaied: are you ſo doltiſhe and blockiſhe, that you vnderſtande not ſo plaine ſpeeches as the Prophets haue vſed concernyng the ſufferyng es of Chriſte?

And appearyng to them afterwardes, as thei were altogether in Ieruſalem: He telleth them, that of neceſſitie, all muſte bee fulfilled, that had beene written concernyng him, either in the lawe of Moyſes, in the Prophets, or in the Pſalmes. And that thei might vnderſtande the Scriptures, he did then open their vnderſtandynges: Whereby it appeareth, that it was not the hardneſſe and deepeneſſe of the miſteries (wherewith, as you ſaie the Scripture is full) that helde them from the vnderſtandyng thereof: but the dulneſſe of their owne vnderſtandyng, becauſe thei were as yet but carnall: and therefore coulde not perceiue thynges belongyng to the ſpirite of God, as Sainct Paule hath written.1. Cor. 2. The naturall man, doeth not perceiue theſe thynges that doe belong to the ſpirite of God. Not that we bee of our ſelues, as of our ſelues,2. Cor. 3. ſufficient to thinke any thyng, but our ſufficiencie is of God. &c.

Now, for that whiche you haue cited, out of Austine, concernyng the reprehendyng of Honoratus: I would gladly knowe of you, what Honoratus it was that you ſpeake of. One there was of that name, to whom Sainct Austine wrote his .120. Epiſtle. But that Honoratus was not like to vſe any ſuche ſpeeche to S. Austine. Neither doeth Sainct Austine in that Epiſtle, vſe any ſuche ſpeeche to hym, as you ſaie he did. But in the laſte ende of the Epiſtle, Saint Austine ſheweth hym ſelf to be of an other mynde, then (by your reporte) your Austine ſeemed to be. For he ſaieth thus.

Habes librum, & ſi prolixum, tamen, quantum exiſtimo non ſuperfluum. &c. Thou haſte here a Booke (ſaieth Sainct Austine) whiche though it be long: yet, as I thinke, it is not ſuperfluous. But doe thou loue the Eccleſiaſticall writinges alſo, and thou ſhalte not finde many thynges, which thou ſhouldeſt neede to ſeeke for at my handes. But by reading and ruminating or cuddyng (if thou doe alſo purely praie vnto the Lorde, that is the giuer of all good thinges) thou ſhalt learne throughly, all thoſe thynges, or vndoubtedly very many of thoſe thinges, that are worth the knowyng, rather by his inſpiration, then by any mannes admonition: Although, euen in the ſame thyng wherein wee doe with right iudgement allowe that man that doth outwardly admoniſh vs well: what other thing doe we, then teſtifie that we haue an inwarde light that doeth teache vs, and is our Maiſter? Thus farre Austine. Lette your freendes iudge, whether it be likely, that this Austine, and this Honoratus, would vſe ſuche ſpeeches the one to the other, as you reporte yours to haue doen.

One other Honoratus there was, to whom our S. Austine wrote his .161. Epiſtle. This man helde with Donatus: and in that Epiſtle Saint Austine doeth exhorte hym, to render a reaſon quietly in writing, wherefore the name of the Church ſhould at that time remaine onely among the Donatiſts.

There was alſo a thirde, Honoratus, to whom our S. Austine wrote his .179. Epiſtle. This man Saint Austine calleth brother and fellowe Biſhop, and doeth inſtruct hym at large in the libertie of fliyng perſecution: wherein he vſeth not one worde, that maie bee wreſted to that meanyng that you haue reported.

But you will ſaie, there is yet one other, to whome Saint Austine wrote his Booke, De vtilitate credendi.

Suche an Honoratus there was in deede. But when you ſhall reade that Booke with more indifferent iudgement: you ſhall not finde, that Austine to bee of your mynde. Not muche before that place that you take holde of, writing of the truth of the Scripture, and noting that we ought to loue the Scripture before wee learne it: he writeth thus. Quicquid eſt (mihi crede) in Scripturis illis, altum & diuinum eſt. &c. Beleeue me (ſaieth Saint Austine) whatſoeuer thyng is in the Scriptures, the ſame is deepe and diuine: truthe is in it altogether, and a diſcipline that is moſte meete for the refreſhyng and reſtoryng of myndes: and vndoubtedly, ſo moderated, that euery manne maie drawe therehence, enough to ſatiffie him ſelf, if ſo be that he come to drawe after a deuout and Godly ſorte, as true Religion requireth. And immediatly before the place that you ſeeme to take holde of: he 〈1 page missing〉

By that interpretation that you make of the wordes that are written in the ſixteene of Mathew: ye maintaine the groſſe errour, of buildyng Chriſt his Churche vpon Peter the man,Aug. de verbis. Domini. ſer. 13. and not vpon Chriſt the Rocke: not withſtandyng, that the beſt of the Catholique Doctors haue written to the contrarie. Yea, and herehence come all your Indulgencies and Pardones, with abſolute power for your Pope to doe what he will▪ without checke or controulement.

I might here take iuſt occaſion, to rehearſe all thoſe errors, that haue bene, and are holden by your ſorte, and aſcribe them all, to that whiche S. Austine ſpeaketh of in the wordes that you cite: that is. That by your ſort, the good Scriptures, are not well vnderſtanded. But ſtudiyng to be breefe, I paſſe them ouer.

To proceede in mine Aunſwere: you eatche holde of S. Peter. And he muſt needes helpe you to face out your lye.2. Pet. 3. If S. Peter will haue your fauour, he muſt needes beare you recorde, that the Scriptures are full of harde and deepe miſteries, as you haue taught S. Austine to ſaie. But when the place that you cite ſhalbe weighed, with indifferent iudgement: it will be founde that S. Peters meanyng, was not as you take is to be.

Sainct Peter hath written thus. But wee looke for newe heauens, and a newe earth, accordyng to his promiſe, wherein dwelleth righteouſneſſe. Wherefore beloued, ſeeyng that ye looke for ſuche thinges thee dilligent, that ye maie be founde of hym in peace, without ſpot, and blameleſſe. And ſuppoſe, that the long ſufferyng of our Lorde, is ſaluation: euen as our beloued brother Paule (accordyng to the wiſedome giuen vnto hym) wrote to you, as one that in al his Epiſtles, ſpeaketh of thoſe thinges, amongſte whiche, ſome thynges are harde to be vnderſtanded, whiche thei that bee vnlearned and vnſtable doe peruerte, as thei doe alſo other Scriptures to their owne deſtruction.

If you reade theſe wordes of S. Peter in the Greeke tongue (wherein the Apoſtle wrote them) you ſhall finde that the Relatiue 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 , is of the newter gender, and cannot by the rules of Grammer, agree with 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 , whiche is of the feminine gender. Wherefore, it muſt be Engliſhed, thus. In, or amongſt which thinges or matters that Paule wrote of, and not, in thoſe Epiſtles that he wrote: as in your application of Peters woordes, you ſeeme to vnderſtande him to meane. But peraduenture, you haue no good likyng of the Greeke Text, neither of our Latine tranſlations. I will therefore ſet doune the wordes of S. Peter, euen as I finde them in the tranſlation, that is allowed in the Counſell of Trent: and as thei be writtē in an old written Bible that I haue in Parchment, written, I knowe not how many hundred yeares paſt. Thus are thei written in the Bible. Propter quod chariſſimi, haec expectantes, ſatagite, immaculati & inuiolati ei inueniri in pace: & domini noſtri longanimitatem, ſalutem arbitremini, ſicut & chariſſimus frater noſter Paulus, ſecundum datam ſibi ſapientiam, ſcripſit vobis, ſicut & in omnibus epiſtolis, loquens in eis de hijs, in quibus ſunt quaedam difficilia intellectu, quae indocti & inſtabiles deprauant, ſicut & caeteras ſcripturas, ad ſuam ipſorum perditionem. And I thinke, that you your ſelfe would tranſlate them into Engliſhe, thus. Wherefore, dearely beloued, waityng for theſe thinges, giue your endeuour to be founde vnto hym in peace, beeyng without ſpot, and vndefiled: and thinke that the long ſufferyng of our Lorde, is ſaluation, euen as our moſte deare brother Paule (according to the wiſedom that is giuen vnto him) hath written to you, euen as in euery Epiſtle, ſpeakyng in them of thoſe thinges, amongſt whiche are ſome thinges, that are harde to be vnderſtanded, whiche vnlearned and vnſtable menne, doe depraue, euen as thei doe other Scriptures, to their owne deſtruction.

I truſt you doe ſee now, that we neede not that reaſon, whiche you doe call childiſhe, and is not indeepe ſo childiſhe, but that it hath in all ages been (and is ſtill) allowed amongſt the learned, for the beſte rule in vnderſtandyng of places of the Scripture, wherein is any difficultie.

But now you doe begge (or rather take) leaue, to poſe vs one queſtion furder, to the quicke. And thus you ſaie. How is it poſſible, to knowe by any conference of the Scriptures, which is Canonicall Scripture, and which is not? &c.

You ſeeme to bee perſwaded that this queſtion toucheth to the quicke in deede. For you affirme plainly, that if any Infidell, Hereticke, or Arbeiſt, ſhall denie any parte of the olde or newe Teſtament, or the whole olde and new Teſtament (as in tymes paſt ſome haue doen.) &c. We haue no Ankor holde againſt ſuch, but onely the Reuelation of God to the Churche, by Tradition, which Churche is the piller, and ſure ſtaie of truth. &c.

I confeſſe, that the Church is the Piller and ſure ſtaie of truthe, as Sainct Paule writeth.1. Tim. 3. But that this truth is reuealed to the Churche by Tradition (as you write) that I denie. For God hath taught, (and doth ſtill teach) the truthe to his Churche, by the worde of truth, and not by Reuelation or Tradition. And that worde of truthe is ſufficient, and needeth not that any thyng ſhould bee added to it: either by Reuelation, or by Tradition. Yea▪ there is an horrible curſſe pronounced againſt all ſuch as ſhall adde any thyng to in.

The true Catholique Churche, is in deede the Piller and ſure ſtaie, whereon, that truthe that is taught by the worde of truthe, doeth ſtaie. For that worde of truthe, is the voyce of her Sheepeheard, and ſhe delighteth in hearyng that voyce: but the voyce of a ſtraunger ſhe can not abyde to heare. The truthe taught by the voyce of her Sheepehearde, ſhe laieth vp in her harte: and all her delight is to lette men ſee it, in her life and conuerſation, that ſéeing her good lyfe, they may be occaſioned therby, to glorifie her ſpouſe Chriſte, and his and her heauenly Father.

This is that authoritie, that S. Austine ſayth, moued him to beléeue the Goſpell. And this authoritie cauſed him to write thus, againſt that Epiſtle of Manichaeus, which the Maniches called theyr foundation.Tom. 6. Ego veró Euangelio non crederem, niſi me Catholicae Eccleſiae commoueret authoritas. Surely, I would not beléeue the Goſpell, except the authoritie of the Church dyd mooue me thereto.

Not many lines before thoſe words, S. Austine ſayth thus to the Maniches. Apud vos, vbi nihil horum eſt, quod me inuitet ac teneat. &c. That is: Amongſt you, where no part of that thing is, which might allure and holde me, there ſoūdeth only a promiſing of the trueth: which vndoubtedly, if it be ſhewed foorth ſo manifeſtly, that it may not be doubted of: it is to be preferred before all thoſe thinges that doo holde me in the Church.

I pray you (Maiſter Pownde) ponder well theſe wordes of Austine: and be not afrayde with Austine to yéelde, to the manifeſt trueth, (when it ſhall be manifeſted to you) onely becauſe it lacketh the conſent of Peoples, and Nations, the authoritie of Myracles, the nouriſhment of hope, the increaſe of looue, the eſtabliſhment of Antiquitie, the holde from Peters ſeate, the ſucceſſion of Prieſts, and the name of Catholique. For S. Augustine ſayth: That the manifeſt trueth muſt be preferred before all theſe.

But if you wyll marke it well, you ſhall finde that the trueth which we holde and teach, and would wiſhe you and all your ſort to embrace, dooth not lacke the chéefeſt of thoſe thinges that mooued S. Austine firſt to embrace it. For it is the ſame, that firſt gotte credite, by thoſe Myracles that were wrought by Chriſte and his Apoſtles.Mark. 16. It was, and is ſtyll nouriſhed by hope: It was, and is ſtyll increaſed by looue, it is alſo confirmed by that ſeate which you call Peters, and hath the ſucceſſion of Prieſts, although not in ſuch ſort as you allowe of. And laſt of all, it hath the right name of Catholique.

Thus, I hope, you doo now ſée, that you haue not rightly applied, eyther the words of Paule, or of Austine: mynding thereby to prooue, that the Church of Roome, (being ſuch a Church, as nowe it ſheweth it ſelfe to be) is the Piller of trueth, and that Catholique Church, whereunto all Chriſtians ſhould and muſt of neceſſitie cleaue, if they wyll be ſaued by Chriſte.

Your concluſion, wherein you aduiſe all men to beware of fléeing from the Church, to the iudgement of the Scriptures onely. &c. Was not ſo aduiſedly made, as were ſéemely to be made, by one that were ſo well ſéen in the writings of ye Fathers, as you would ſéeme to be. For (as I thinke, yea, I am perſwaded, that I may ſafely affirme,) there is not one of the auncient Fathers, of your minde in that poynt.

Saint Auſtine, in his Epiſtle fortie and eight, written to Vincentius, ſayth thus. Noli ergò frater, contra diuina tam multa, tam clara, tam indubitata teſtimonia. &c. Doo not therefore (Brother) ſhewe thy ſelfe wylling, to gather out of the wrytinges of Biſhoppes, reproches againſt ſo heauenly, ſo many, ſo cleare, and ſo vndoubted teſtimonies: whether the ſame Biſhops be on our ſide, as Hillarius, or of the vnitie it ſelfe, before the faction of Donatus was ſeparated from it, as Cyprian, and Agripinus: Firſt for that, that kinde of writing muſt be diſtinguiſhed, from the authoritie of the Canon, for they are not ſo read, that teſtimonie ſhould be taken out of them, that it might not be lawfull for any man, to be of a minde contrarie thereto, if perhappes they ſhall in any place be of other minde then the trueth requireth. For we are of that number that may not diſdayne, to take euen vnto our ſelfe, this ſaying of the Apoſtle. And if ye be of an other minde in any thing,Phil. 3. God wyll reueale the ſame to you alſo.

Thus you may ſée, that S Auſtine dooth not allowe the ſentence of any man, no nor the ſentence of the vnitie it ſelfe (which I vnderſtand to be a generall Councell) againſt the Canonicall Scripture.

The ſame Saint Austine, wryting to Saint Ierome in his fifteene Epiſtle,Epiſt. 15. ſayth thus. Ego enim fateor charitati tuae. &c. I confeſſe (ſayth S. Austine) I haue learned to giue this reuerende feare and honor, onely to thoſe Bookes of the Scriptures, which nowe are called Canonicall: that I doe firmely beléeue, that none of the Authors of them, haue in wryting erred any thing at all.

By this ſaying of Saint Austine, it may appeare, that he was of this minde, that there may be errour, euen in the decrées of your generall Councels.

Againe,De Bapt. Libr. 2. Cap. 2. againſt the Donatiſtes, Saint Austine wryteth thus. Quis autem neſciat Scripturam canonicam. &c. Who can be ignoraunt (ſayth Saint Austine) that the holy Scripture, as well of the olde as of the newe Teſtament, is conteyned within her owne boundes or lymittes: and that the ſame is ſo preferred before all the latter wrytings of Biſhops, that concerning it, there may be no doubt or controuerſie at all, whether any thing that is certainly knowne to be written in it, be true or right. And the writinges of Byſhoppes, which haue bene, or be written, after the confirmation of the Canon, may be found faulte with (if it happen that any thing therein doo ſwarue from the trueth) eyther by more wyſe ſpéeche of any other, that is more expert in that matter: or by the more graue Authoritie of other Biſhoppes, or the wiſedome of menne better learned, or by Councels, yea, and that the Councels them ſelues, which are holden in particular Regions, or Prouinces, muſt without any doubting, giue place, to the authoritie of full Councels, which are made of the vniuerſall Chriſtian world. Yea, & that the full or generall Councels that are firſt holden, may be amended by them that are holden afterwardes, when by any experience of thinges, that thing that before was ſhut, is made open, and that thing which lay hyd, is made knowne. And this may be done, without any hautineſſe of ſacrilegious pride, without any ſwelling throte of arrogancie, without any contencion of ſpightfull enuie, with holie humilitie, with Catholique peace, and with Chriſtian Charitie. Thus farre Austine.

Nowe I thinke you wyll confeſſe, that your Catholique Church may erre: or elſe that S. Auſtine, one of the Doctors of that Church dyd erre. For he ſayth, that the latter generall Councels, may amend the former. He ſayth alſo, that there may be no doubt or controuerſie about the trueth of any thing, that is knowne to be written in the Canonicall Scriptures. Therefore, blame vs not, though we flée from the iudgement of the Church to the ſcriptures, which can neuer deceaue vs.

And as touching that inconuenience that you doo put vs in minde of, which is the denying of the Scriptures by Atheiſts: I pray you let me propone one queſtion to you, and ſo poſe you as night to the quicke as you haue poſed vs. What if your Church ſhould vtterly be denied to be the Church of Chriſte? Or what if thoſe Atheiſts that be in Englande, or elſe where, ſhould denie that Chriſte hath any Church at all: or that there is, or hath been, any ſuch Chriſte as we beléeue in? Might not thoſe Infidels (thinke you) laugh you to ſcorne, for robbing your ſelues of your owne defence,Ephe. 6. which is the worde of God, which Saint Paule calleth the ſworde of the Spirite?

But now you wyll returne to your purpoſe. If conference of one Scripture with an other, might giue lyght enough to all men: Howe happeneth it, that all ſectes vſing that conference, the ſectaries can neuer agrée in theyr opinions. &c. To this, not I, but S. Paule ſhall giue you aunſwer.1. Cor. 11. Oportet haereſes eſſe, vt hij qui probati ſunt, manifeſti ſint in vobis. It can not be auoyded, but that there muſt be hereſies, or ſectes, that they which be tryed, may be made knowne amongſt you. Let S. Paule defend his owne aſſertion, as he can. I wyll betake me to that vttermoſt ſhift that you ſay we haue, notwithſtanding, that you call it a weake one.

Saint Austine ſayth, that the Scriptures muſt be read, by ſuch as doo vndoubtedly beléeue, that they are moſt true witneſſes. And theſe are his wordes. Agant orando, De Trini. Libr. 15. & quaerendo, & bene viuēdo vt intelligant. &c. That is: They muſt labour by prayer, and by ſéeking, and by lyuing well: that they may vnderſtand, that is, that they may ſée in minde, (as much as may be ſéene) that which they doo holde by faith.Iam. 1. And S▪ Iames ſayth. If any man lacke wiſedome, let him aſke it of God. &c.

Thus may you ſée, that both S. Iames, and S. Austine doo allowe of this ſhift, which you doo accoumpt to be ſo weake, and ſuch intollerable pride. Yea, S. Austine addeth theſe wordes. Quis hoc prohibeat? imó veró, ad hoc quis non hortetur? Who can forbid this? Yea rather, who wyll not exhort héerunto? doo you therfore accoūpt of it as you luſte: we wyll ſtyll vſe it, as the ready way to attayne to that knowledge, that is neceſſarie for vs.

As for the reuealing of the trueth to the vniuerſall Church, for which Chriſte him ſelfe dyd praye: we confeſſe that according to his promiſe, Chriſte hath reuealed to them altogether, and to euery perticular member amongſt them, as much as he knewe to be méete to be reuealed to them. And ſo be the wordes of his promiſe. Ille vos docebit omnia, & ſuggeret vobis omnia, quae cū que dixero vobis. He ſhall teach you all thinges, and he ſhall put you in minde of all thoſe thinges, that I ſhall ſpeake vnto you.

The pleaſaunt paſtime that you make, with the courſe that we take, in the ſearche and ſtudie of the Scriptures, I paſſe ouer: for I knowe, that he onely to whome we pray, dooth know how faithfully we pray, and whether with teares or without. To him we ſhall ſtande, or fall▪ Iudge not you an other mans Seruaunt.

But you ſay, we muſt néedes be all deceyued, ſo long as we dwell in diſſention, and are not in errours only, but alſo, one of vs contrarie to an other. And who now muſt be Iudge, to trie the Spirites, whether they be of God, or no? Onely the Church, (ſay you) or elſe they ſhall not be tryed at all. &c.

For the firſt, Saint Paule hath tolde you, that of neceſſitie, ſectes muſt be amongſt men,1. Cor. 11. and euen amongſt ſuch as be of the Church of Chriſte: And that becauſe, ſuch as be allowed or tryed, can not otherwiſe be knowen. And as touching the other poynt, Saint Austine ſayth thus. Contra inſidioſos errores, Deus voluit ponere firmamentum in ſcripturis, In. 1. Iohn Epiſt. Cap. 2. contra quas, nullus audet loqui▪ qui quoquo modo ſe vult videri Chriſtianum. It was the pleaſure of God, to ſet in the ſcriptures, a ſure Bulwarke againſt deceytfull errours: againſt which Scriptures, no man, that is any way wylling to ſéeme to be a Chriſtian, dare be bolde to ſpeake.

As golde by the toutch ſtone, ſo are the ſpirites tryed by the Scripture. And euerie one that is ſkilfull in the ſcriptures, that is, that can by conferring of one ſcripture with an other. finde out the meaning of the holy ghoſt in the ſcriptures: may be as bolde to vſe the ſcripture in the tryall of ſpirites, as the Goldſmith may be, to vſe the toutch ſtone, in the tryall of mettalles. And if ye thinke that the conference of one Scripture with an other, be not the ſureſt way to attaine to the true meaning of the Scriptures, looke Saint Austine, De Doctrina Chriſtiana. Lib. 3. Cap. 26. And thus much for aunſwer to your ſecond Reaſon, which I haue called Falſe.

The third Reaſon.

THe thirde Reaſon that mooueth you to thinke, that the Scriptures are to be iudged by the Church: is, for that S. Peter hath written,2. Pet. 1. That no Scripture is to be taken after any priuate interpretation. &c.

This Reaſon I haue called Fooliſhe, for that fooliſhly you doo ruſhe into the Epiſtle of Saint Peter, and report his wordes otherwiſe then he wrote them: and then you your ſelfe doo make a priuate interpretation of them, contrarie to the decrée made in the Councell of Trent: whereof you would ſéeme to make greateſt accoumpt.

The words of Saint Peter, as they doo ſtande in that tranſlation that the Coūcell of Trent hath allowed, are theſe. Hoc primùm intelligentes, quód omnis prophaetia ſcripturae, propria interpretatione non fit. Vnderſtanding this thing firſt: that no propheſie of the ſcripture, is made by priuate interpretation. I meruayle howe you (being ſuch a Catholique as you profeſſe to be) durſt ſet downe Peters wordes, otherwiſe then you finde them in that tranſlation. For I am ſure, you are not ignoraunt of the penaltie that the Councell hathSeſsio. 4. appointed for ſuch doinges.

But this is not all your miſdemeanour in this behalfe. For you make a priuate Interpretation, contrarie, bothe to the decrée, and alſo to this thyrde Reaſon of yours. For, to make a priuate interpretation, is to make ſuch a one as differeth from the auncient wryters, and is not allowed of the Church. But where can you ſhewe me any auncient writer, that hath interpreted thoſe wordes of Peter, as you doo?

Saint Austine medleth not with them. No more dooth S. Ierome, S. Ambroſe, S. Gregorie, nor Chryſostome, nor any other of that tyme, that I haue ſéene, or can heare of.

Nicholaus Lyranus, writing vpon theſe wordes of S. Peter, ſayth that the meaning of S. Peter, was to teach: that no propheticall Scripture hath begynning in, or dooth ſpring out of humane ſenſe, or mannes meaning. For thus he wryteth. Propria interpretatione non fit, id eſt, Lyranus in. 2. Epi. Peter. non fit ſenſu humano: ideo ſubditur. Non enim voluntate humana allata eſt aliquando prophetia, ſed ſpiritu ſancto inſpirati. &c. It is not made (ſayth he) by any mans owne interpretatiō (that is to ſay) it is not made by humane ſenſe: and therefore, this ſaying is ſet immediatly after. Prophecie hath not at any tyme been brought in, by mans wyll: but men inſpired with the holy Ghoſt. &c.

I thinke your Fathers of the Councell of Trent, will allowe Lyranus for a Catholique wryter: wherefore, I thinke alſo that they wyll not diſpenſe with you, for diſſenting from him, in the interpreting of S. Peters wordes.

But nowe, if ye wyll giue me leaue, I wyll tell you what I thinke to be the meaning of S. Peter in theſe words. Firſt I thinke, that you doo know, that S. Peter wrote in Greeke. And then you muſt knowe, that the wordes which in the allowed tranſlation, are Priuata interpretatione: are in the Greeke, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 . And they that haue any ſkyll in the Greeke tongue, will tell you that 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 dooth ſignifie Impulſus, as well as Interpretatio. And may we not tranſlate the wordes of S. Peter thus? Omnis prophetica ſcriptura, non fit proprij impulſus. Euerie propheticall Scripture, is not made of, or by priuate, or proper impulſion. Or to tranſlate it more Engliſh lyke: No propheticall Scripture is made of, or by priuate or proper impulſion.

It ſéemeth to me, that bothe the wordes that goe before, and alſo the wordes that followe, doo enforce this to be the meaning of Saint Peter. For he ſayth thus. We haue a firme and ſure propheticall ſpéeche: and you doo well in that you doo giue good héede thereto, as vnto a Candle that appeareth in a darke place, vntyl the day may waxe cleare, and the day ſtarre may aryſe in your heartes. But yet ſo, that you doo firſt knowe, that no propheticall Scripture, is made by priuate or proper impulſion. For propheſie hath not at any tyme bene brought vnto vs by the wyll of men, but the holy men of God haue ſpoken, as by the ſpirite of God, they haue bene driuen, or vehementlie mooued to ſpeake.

Let your fréendes conſider of this, and tell you whether this may be allowed for Catholique or not. I do • not write this, as one that doo not thinke that ſaying of yours (No Scripture is to be taken after any priuate interpretation) to be true: or as one that dooth allowe the raſhneſſe of ſuch as wyll ruſhe into the Scriptures, without ſuch reuerance as is ſéemely, and take vppon them to make interpretations after their owne fantaſies. I know that all that we can doo, and all the helpes that we can haue, are lyttle enough, and therefore I thinke it méete, for all men, to follow the rules that S. Austine preſcribeth, writing, De Doctrina Chriſtiana. And thus much may ſuffiſe to be ſayde, to your thirde Reaſon, which by good Reaſon, and for iuſt cauſe (as I thinke) I haue called Fooliſhe.

The fowrth Reaſon.

YOur fowrth Reaſon is, for that by appealing to the Scripture, we ſeeme (as you ſay) to giue men lybertie to denie all vnwritten verities, which we haue receyued of the Church, eyther by expreſſe definition, in generall Councell, or but by tradition. &c. And firſt, you delyght your ſelfe with a frumpe at Crowley and his fellowes, that wil laugh (as you ſay) ſo ſoone as they heare of vnwritten verities. And it ſéemeth that you perſwade your ſelfe that you haue done it verie finely. And therfore I haue named this Reaſon of yours Fā taſticall.

But yet a little to temper our follie (you will not ſay our pride) you will aſke vs how we prooue the Trinity of perſons, and the vnitie of ſubſtaunce in the Godhead, by expreſſe Scriptures. &c.

Nine verities we muſt prooue by Scriptures, which are not (as you ſay) written in the Canonicall Scriptures. Well, to ſtaie your wiſdome, I wyll (by Gods mercifull aſſiſtance) doo what may be done in this matter. And I hope to prooue as many of them, as be neceſſary to be knowne to ſaluation: euen by plaine ſcriptures. And the reſt. I hope I ſhall be able to prooue, in ſuch ſort as the Fathers haue prooued them, againſt ſuch as haue at any tyme denied them. And firſt, I muſt prooue, that in the Godhead, there be thrée diſtinct perſons, and but one ſubſtaunce. This and the ſecond, that is, that in Chriſte there be two diſtinct Natures, and but one perſon: I thinke I ſhall eaſily prooue.

The Prophet Dauid, hath written thus. Pſal. 110. The Lord hath ſayde to my Lord,Pſal. 110. ſyt thou at my right hande, tyll I make thine enimies thy foote ſtoole. The Lord ſhall ſend out of Sion, the Scepter of thy power, beare thou rule in the myddes amongſt his enimies. Thus much in the two firſt verſes. And in the fift verſe he ſayth thus. The Lord at thy right hand, hath wounded euen Kinges in the day of his wrath.

That the Prophet Dauid, dyd in theſe verſes of this Pſalme, ſpeake of the diuine Maieſtie, and of the ſecond perſon Chriſt: it is manifeſted by that which S. Mathew writeth in his twenty and two Chapt. Vos quid dicitis de Chriſto? cuius filius eſt? What doo you ſay of Chriſte? whoſe ſonne is he? &c.

The Lord. That is God the Father. Sayde to my Lord. That is to God the Sonne. &c. Héere haue we two diſtincted perſons, the Father, and the Sonne. And in the ſeconde verſe, he ſayth: The Lorde ſhall ſend out of Sion, the Scepter of thy power, which is, the worde of the Goſpell. And this Scepter was ſent out of Sion by the holy Ghoſte, in the feaſt of Pentecoſte: when he reſted vppon the Apoſtles, in the ſhape of 〈…〉 rie tongues deuided. So that héere we haue the thyrde perſon, and ſo conſequently thrée diſtinct perſons. The Father ſayth to the ſonne, ſit thou at my right hand. &c. And the holy Ghoſt ſendeth the word, which is the ſcepter of the power of the Sonne out of Sion. And in the fift verſe he ſayth. The Lorde at thy right hand, ſhall wounde euen Kinges in the day of his wrath. Thus ſpeaketh the diuine Maieſtie: God the Father, God the Sonne, God the holy Ghoſte, one diuine Maieſtie: to the Church of Chriſte hée re milytaunt vppon earth. So haue we the vnitie, of the thrée diſtinct perſons in the deitie. And Chriſte him ſelfe, expounding the firſt verſe of this Pſalme to be ſpoken of him ſelfe, dooth a warrant vs, that he béeing Dauids ſonne after the fleſh, is neuertheleſſe Dauids Lorde, and therefore God. And ſo bothe God and man, and yet but one Chriſte. For be ſayth: What ſay you of Chriſte?Math. 22. Whoſe ſonne is hée?

This might ſuffiſe to ſhewe, that theſe two verities are not vnwritten, as you do terme them. But to ſatiſfie you to the full: looke what S. Mathew hath written, in the laſt Chapter, & laſt words of his Goſpell: reporting the wordes of our Sauiour, who ſayth thus there. All power bothe in heauen and earth, is giuen vnto me. Goe your way therfore, and teach all Nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Sonne, and of the holy Ghoſt: teaching them to obſerue all thoſe thinges that I haue commaunded you. And behold, I am with you euerie day, euen to the ende of the world.

Héere the man Chriſte, receyueth from the diuine Maieſtie, all power, bothe in heauen and in earth: and by that power he giueth commiſſion to his Apoſtles to goe and teache all Nations, and to Baptize them in the name of the Father, of the Sonne, & of the holy Ghoſt. So that héere againe we haue thrée diſtinct perſonnes: and their vnitie, in giuing to Chriſte all power in heauen and in earth: and the two natures, in one perſon Chriſte, in that he receyueth all power in heauen and in earth, and giueth commiſſion to his Apoſtles to teach and baptize.

If this will not ſatiſfie you: I refer you to that which S. Austine hath written in his booke,Tom. 3. De Trinit. There ſhall you finde proofe vpon proofe, that theſe verities are not vnwritten.

The thirde veritie that you ſay is vnwritten, is that God the Father was neuer begotten. It ſéemeth that you haue not read S. Peaules Epiſtle to the Epheſians: for if you had, you muſt néedes haue ſéene, that this is no vnwritten veritie. Saint Paule writeth thus. Huius rei gratia flecto genua mea, ad patrem Domini noſtri Ieſu Chriſti, ex quo omnis paternitas in coelo & in terra nominatur. Ephe. 3. For this cauſe (ſayth S. Paule) doo I bowe my knées, to the Father of our Lorde Ieſus Chriſte, of whome all Fatherhoode, bothe in heauen and in earth dooth take name. I trow you will not now ſay that this veritie is vnwritten.

The fowrth veritie, that you ſay is not written, is that the holy Ghoſt procéedeth bothe from the Father and the Sonne, as from one fountayne. If you would reade that which S. Iohn hath written: I thinke you would not ſay that this veritie is vnwritten.Iohn. 15. &. 20. Cum venerit paracletus, quem ego mittam vobis a patre, spiritū veritatis, qui a patre procedit: ille teſtimonium perhibebit de me. &c. When the Comforter ſhall come, whome I wyll ſende vnto you from the Father, euen the ſpirit of trueth, that procéedeth from the Father: he ſhall teſtifie of me. &c. And in the twentie Chapter he ſayth. Haec cum dixiſſet, inſufflauit, & dixit eis: Accipite ſpiritum ſanctum. When he had ſpoken theſe wordes, he breathed vpon them, and he ſayde vnto them: Receyue ye the holy Ghoſt. &c. If breath may be ſayde, to procéede from the perſon that breatheth: then may we ſay, that it is written, that the holy Ghoſt procéedeth from Chriſte, the ſonne of God, euen as it is written, that he procéedeth from God the Father.

I wyll be bolde therefore, without any more a doo, to conclude, that theſe fowre verities, are not vnwritten, but written in déede in the Canonicall Scriptures.

The fift vnwritten verity, is the deſcending of Chriſt into hell: this you muſt haue prooued by plaine wordes of Scripture, the lacke whereof (as you ſay) hath cauſed many, nowe a dayes to deny it flatly. I am none of them that doo ſo deny it. But that he deſcended in ſuch manner, as your Catholiques haue taught, and as it hath bene ſet foorth in their Stage Playes, and in their payntinges in glaſſe windowes, & elſe where, I thinke would be as harde a thing for you to prooue, any way, as for vs to prooue by plaine wordes of Scripture, that he dyd in déede deſcende into hell.

I thinke you wyll graunt that the ſpéeche vſed in the Créede, concerning Chriſtes deſcending into hell, is figuratiue, vſed by the figure Synecdoche: wherein the whole is vnderſtanded in the parte. For you wyll not (I thinke) ſay, that Chriſtes body went into hell: For that was buried and reſted in the graue, tyll the tyme that it was reſtored to lyfe againe. Well. Then it was his ſpirite, that deſcended into hell • and not his body and ſpirite bothe. This being graūted (as I think, you wyll not deny to doo) we ſhall eaſily prooue, euen by plaine wordes of the Scripture, that Chriſte deſcended into hell.

Saint Peter, in the thirde Chapter of his firſt Epiſtle,1. Pet. 3. ſayth thus. Quia et Chriſtus ſemel pro peccatis mortuus eſt, iuſtus pro iniuſtis: vt nos offeret Deo, mortificatus quidem carne, viuificatus autem ſpiritu. In quo & his qui in carcere erant ſpiritibus veniens, praedicauit. &c. For euen Chriſte (ſayth Saint Peter) dyd once dye for ſinnes, the iuſte for the vniuſte, that he might offer vs vnto God: mortified in the fleſhe indéede, but quickened in the ſpirite, in which ſpirite, comming to thoſe ſpirites that were in priſon: he dyd preach vnto them. Nowe, I thinke you wyll ſay, that I haue prooued by plaine words of Scripture, that Chriſte deſcended into hell.

But howe great a matter were it, If this might not be prooued by any playne Scripture: ſéeing the Nicene Créede (vſed in your Maſſe) maketh no mencion of it.

And Damaſus, that was Biſhop of Rome. 360. yéeres alter Chriſtes aſcencion, when Iulianus the Apoſtata was Emperour, hath in his Créede no worde of it. And yet he concludeth his Creede with theſe wordes. Haec lege, Ieroni. Tom. 4. haec crede, haec retine, huic fidei animam tuam ſubiuga: & vitam conſequeris & premium a Chriſto. That is: Reade theſe wordes, beléeue them, holde them faſte, yoake thy ſoule to this Faith: and thou ſhalt obtayne of Chriſte, bothe life and reward.

I note this, becauſe I ſée that you ſhoote at this marke. To binde vs, eyther to prooue all your vnwritten verities by Scripture: or elſe, for lacke of ſuch proofe, to beleeue (as true) whatſoeuer your Catholique Church ſhall allowe for trueth, although the ſame be neuer ſo vnneceſſarie to be prooued, or receyued for trueth.

Your ſixt vnwritten veritie, is the cuſtome of Baptizinge Infauntes. For this, I néede not to wryte much.Mark. 10. Our Sauiour Chriſte hath ſayde: Suffer little Chyldren to come to me, and forbidde them not: For to ſuch dooth the kingdome of God belong. And Saint Paule ſayth: That the Children of beléeuing Parents, are holy.1. Cor. 7. Therefore they are not to be holden from Baptiſme: more then the Iewes children from Circumciſion.

Your other thrée whyes are ſcarce worthy the aunſwering. Why ſhould we kéepe the Sunday now at all▪ and not the Saturday? Why ſhould we not abſtaine now ſtyll, like Iewes, from ſtrangled meates, as the Apoſtles decreed? And why may not any Heretike, deny all the thrée Créedes. &c.

The firſt of theſe whyes, ſhall be aunſwered with an other why.Mark. a. As why may not the Church of Chriſtians, being Lordes of the Sabaoth, chuſe for their Sabaoth, one daye in ſeuen, euen that daye, the obſeruing whereof, they ſhall ſée to ſerue beſt for theyr owne edification? And why did the Apoſtles (as it maye be gathered, by that which Saint Iohn hath written in his Reuelation)Apoc. 1. chuſe the firſt daye of the wéeke to be theyr Sabaoth, and not the laſte? And why doo you not remember that Saint Paule dooth number the Sabaoth amongſt ſuch indifferent things, as are Meates and Drinckes,Collo. 2. Feſtiuall dayes, and new Moones: which were but ſhadowes of thinges to come? &c.

And to your ſecond why, I ſay that the Apoſtles ſaw, that it was neceſſarie for the tyme, to forbydde thoſe Chriſtians, that then lately had bene Heathen men: to ſéede vpō ſtrangled or blood. And néeded not to abrogate it afterwarde,Acts. 15. when they were further inſtructed, and knew how to vſe the Chriſtiā lybertie without offence. A man might meruayle, why any wiſe man, would mooue ſuch a why as this.

Your thirde, & laſt why, may be fully aunſwered with theſe wordes. Becauſe there is no thing in thoſe thrée Créedes: that may not eaſily be prooued by the Scriptures. And thus are all your whyes aunſwered.

But, doo you not marke, howe theſe bedlem Catholiques, would ſhake the foundation of our Chriſtian fayth: by bynding vs to beléeue, that Chriſtes Catholique Church hath ſet foorth (as infallibly true) and to be beléeued vnder paine of dampnation) three Créedes, the Articles whereof, they are not able to prooue by the Scriptures? doo not theſe blinde guides (thinke you) leade vs a trym daunce, towardes ſhameles error and ignorauuce? And thus much to your fowrth Reaſon, which for good cauſe I haue called, Fantaſticall. Bothe, for that it ſéemeth that you perſwade your • elwfe, that you handle your ſelfe verie finely, in all that you write therein: and alſo, for that you haue vttered nothing therein, that may not well ſéeme to ſpring out of a fantaſticall head.

The fift Reaſon.

YOur fift Reaſon, I haue called Fradulent, becauſe you doo therein compare the lawes and Scriptures of God, to the lawes of men, made for ciuill pollicie and gouernment. And the Iudges & gouernors in ciuill pollicie, to the Eccleſiaſtical miniſters, & gouernours of the Church of Chriſt, in matters of faith. This is fraudulently, to bring y• holy Scriptures (which of right are the toutchſtone, for all mennes iudgements to be tryed by) to be vnder the iudgement of ſome one man, as your Pope▪ (who challengeth authoritie, aboue the generall Councels) or of that number of men that ſhalbe gathered together in a generall Coūcell (which doo challenge authoritie aboue the Pope.) But God that is Author of all perfection, and dooth diſpoſe euery thing in a ſwéet and decent order: hath prouided much better for his Catholique Church, héere millitaunt on earth, then that it ſhould be driuen to ſéeke for reſolution of doubts, at the bandes of ſuch Iudges as may erre, as your Pope and generall Councels haue and may doo.

The Father of lyghts, the giuer of all good gyftes, in whome there is no chaunge or ſhewe of variableneſſe. The Spirite of trueth, that can neyther deceyue, nor be deceyued: is ready at hand with euery one, that in humilitie of minde craueth wiſedome, and wyll not ſuffer any ſuch, lōg to be in doubt of any thing, the knowledge whereof is neceſſarie to ſaluation. If you (ſayth our ſauiour) which be naught, doo know how to giue good gifts to your children. How much more ſhall your heauenly Father,Luk. 11. giue the holy ſpirit, to them that aſke it of him? Gods chyldren may be bolde (in ſuch caſes as I haue ſpoken of) to craue Gods ſpirite, and aſſure themſelues▪ to receyue it at his handes.1. Pet. 5. But the proude and hauty minded, ſhalbe as ſure to finde God theyr enimie.

This Iudge is alwayes ready in the ſcriptures, to open the vnderſtādings of as many as doo reſort thether (with humilitie of minde) ſéeking there to be reſolued of theyr neceſſarie doubts.

That both your Popes, & generall Coūcels haue erred (& therfore may erre) I wil by Gods help plainly proue.

Firſt, if it were poſſible to perſwade you, that to make a decrée directly, contrarie to the expreſſe commaundement of God, is an error: then it ſhould be an eaſie matter to cauſe you to confeſſe, that bothe a Pope, and a generall Councell haue erred.

For, the ſixt generall Councell, holden at Conſtantinople, where .289. Biſhops were gathered together: it was amongſt other thinges decréede, that holy Images ſhould be had in Churches, and that the ſame ſhould be with great reuerence worſhipped.Tom. 1. And this Councell was holden when the firſt Agatho was Pope, and this decrée was allowed by him.Diſti. 16. And afterward by Adrian the firſt Pope of that name.

So that one generall Councell, and two Popes, haue erred in one decrée, made againſt, and directly contrary to Gods commaundement. Thou ſhall not make to thy ſ • l • e any grauen Image. &c.

Iohn ths.An. 956. Vorat. Plat. 12. of that name, behaued him ſelfe ſo well in his nine yéeres gouernment: that one Hiſtorian calleth him, Sceleratum virum. A man giuen ouer to all wickedneſſe. And an other calleth him. Monſtrum hominis. A Monſter amongſt men. And at the laſt he was ſlaine, being taken in adulterie.

But peraduenture you wyll ſay: theſe faults procéede of humane infirmitie. But what wyll you then ſay to Sylueſter the ſeconde,Plat. Volat. that gaue him ſelfe to the Diuell, that he might obtaine ye Popedome, which he obtayned in déede, and dyd enioy it fowre yéeres.

Benedictus the ninthe, lyued ſo wickedly, governing the Church fiftéene yéeres: that one Hiſtorian ſayth, he was,Volat. Vir plane probroſus & infamis, that is: A man altogether worthy of reproches, or euyll reportes, and infamous: And an other ſayth: that after his death, hée was ſéene in an horrible ſhape,Plat. and that be ſayde thus. Iuſto Dei iudicio damnatus sum, quia fine Lege vixi. I am dampned, euen by the iuſte iudgement of GOD: becauſe I lyued without lawe.

If all this wyll not ſuffiſe you, conſider I pray you▪ the Councell of Baſill: holden in the yere .1431. And Pope Eugenius, that in thoſe dayes ruled the Church .16 yéeres. This Engenius dyd once allowe the decrées of that Coūcell: And afterward he did diſallow the ſame. Whereby, it is manifeſt that he erred, either in the firſt or in the laſt. And if the Popes authorite be aboue the Councell: then that Councell dyd erre in depoſing that Pope. And if the Councell be aboue the Pope: then did that Pope erre in excomunicating that Councell.

If you wyll take paines in reading the Hiſtories; you ſhall finde amongſt the Popes, the Saduces errour, the Arrians errour, the Pellagians errour mainteyned. Yea you ſhall finde, and we doo ſée manifeſtly, that at this day, your whole Church dooth mainteyne the hereſie of the Anthropomorphits. For you haue in all your Churches, the Image of God the Father: reſembling an olde man with gray haires, as though tyme had now made him olde, as it dooth all creatures.

But when your Church had thrée Popes at one time, Iohn the .23. Gregorie the .12. and Benedict the .13. To which of theſe would you haue ſent vs, for reſolution of our doubtes▪ Yea, and when your Church was two yéeres together, without eyther Pope or generall Coū cell: whether would you haue wiſhed vs, to leaue the Iudgement in matters of Church cōtrouerſies, at that tyme? I hope you wyll no longer wiſhe vs to leaue the Scripture that neuer did, nor ſhall fayle vs, and depend vpon ſuch Iudges as theſe, that haue ſo often failed, and as yet, were neuer full agréed.

As for your compariſon that you make betwixt the Churches and worldly kingdomes: it is not woorth a Walnut. And your ſimilitude of a wyſe Burgeſſe in Parliament: we weigh not. We knowe, and confeſſe, that mens lawes are not, neither can be made ſo plaine or perfect, but that it is neceſſary, that there be Iudges that may haue authoritie to diſcide thoſe cōtrouerſies yt may ariſe by occaſiō of ſiniſter conſtruing of ye meaning of the words of the lawe, or by occaſion of the darkneſſe of the ſame. But where finde you any ſuch darkneſſe, or imperfection,Pſal. 119. in the Scriptures of God? Dooth not Dauid ſay: Lucerna pedibus meis verbum tuum, & lumē ſemitis meis. Thy worde (ſayth Dauid) is a Lanterne to my féete, and a lyght to my pathes.

Take héede that you be not one of them that Eſay ſpeaketh of.Eſai. 5. That doe call lyght darkneſſe, and darkneſſe lyght. &c.

I doo graunt, that there may ſome queſtion ariſe amongſt men, about the vnderſtāding of ſome places of Scripture: but this ryſeth not of the darkneſſe that is in the ſcriptures, but of that darkneſſe that is in mans vnderſtanding. Which till it be opened by the mercifull goodneſſe of God:1. Cor. 2. cannot perceyue thoſe thinges that doo belong to the ſpirite of God.

And we doo thinke it neceſſarie, that there be good, and learned men choſen, & put in authoritie in the Church, ſuch as may (when néede is) call together ye moſt graue, wyſe, and godlie learned perſons, in the feare of God, to delyberate for the good gouernment of the Church, and to take order, that all thinges in the Church, may be done to the edification of the ſame, according to the rule of S. Paule. 1. Cor. 14. And if any proude or froward perſon, or any ſimple or ignoraunt perſon, doo mooue any queſtion: or his, or theyr miſdemeanour, doo cauſe any queſtiō to be mooued, or any doubt to aryſe, about the true meaning of any part of the Scripture: We thinke it méete, that in theſe caſes, thoſe places of Scripture be reuerendly weighed, by thoſe, wyſe, learned, graue, & godlie men, ſo called together in the feare of God. And that the perſons ſo in doubt, be by them certified, of the true meaning of thoſe places. And that (if they will not yéeld to that interpretation that ſhall be made by thoſe men, and prooued by due circumſtances, & conference of thoſe places with other, to be the verie meaning of the holie Ghoſt in thoſe places) then we holde thoſe men for Heretiques, and doo iudge them worthy to be excommunicated.

Thus (if you wyll) you may ſée, that we are ſome thing wiſer then your Burgeſſe in Parliament: and not ſo worthy to be laughed to ſcorne as he: Although we doo not make theſe men Iudges of the ſcripture: but we doo put them in truſt to ſearch the Scriptures, that both they and we may ſubmit our ſelues, to that iudgement, which they, by theyr reuerende ſearching, ſhall finde in the Scriptures. As for the fortie places of Scripture that the Arrians brought, for the defence of theyr horrible Hereſie: we are able enough (by the help of God) to ſet foorth plainly in theyr true meaning, and to withſtand the Arrians (without the helpe of our Catholique Church.) Notwithſtanding the fortie places of Scripture, that they bring more then we can bring for the trueth.

And we ſay, as S. Austine ſayth: that the Scriptures to myſſe vnderſtanded, and myſſe applied, are the Heretiques bowe, to ſhoote out theyr owne venemous arrowes. And as Vincentius ſayth: They are the ſhéepes cloathing, which the Woolfe dooth ſhrowde her ſelfe in in &c.

Yea, and we confeſſe, that the Diuell him ſelfe, dyd alleadge ſcripture againſt our ſauiour Chriſte, and dyd applie it as rightlie as Bonifacius the eight did, when after he had one day ſhewed him ſelf in his Pontificalibus, that is,Luke. 22. his Popely attyre, and the next day in the robes of an Emperour: he ſayd thus. Ecce duo gladij hic. Beholde, heere are two ſwordes.

Another of your Popes, ſetting his foote vppon the necke of Fredericus, the Emperour, ſayd Super Aſpidem & Baſiliſcum ambulabis, Pſal. 91. Alexan. 3. An. 1174. & conculcabis Leonem & Draconem. Upon the Aſpe and Baſiliſke, ſhalt thou walke, and vpon the Lyon and Dragon ſhalt thou treade. And ſurely, as often as theſe wreſters of the Scriptures, doo ſpeake vnto vs, the Diuell dooth (as Vincentius ſayth) ſpeake by theyr mouthes. &c.

But héere I leaue your Vincentius and you together, tyll at ſome more leyſure. I may reade him ouer. I can not thinke that hée dooth handle that place of Mathewe, ſo groſely,Math. 4. as you would make vs beléeue that he dooth. But though he doo, the matter is not great. For there is none that hath any ſence or féeling, in the vnderſtanding of the Scriptures: but the ſame may eaſily ſée, that when our ſauiour Chriſte ſayde. Non tentabis Dominū Deum tuum: Thou ſhalt not tempt the Lord thy God: He had a farre other meaning, then that which you woulde make vs beléeue that Vincentius dooth gather of theſe wordes. Yea, Athens I dyd firſt write this aunſwer, I haue read ouer Vincentius, and haue founde that you doo belye him.

But as one miſtruſting the authoritie of your Vincentius: you clap in the necke of it, one ſentence of S. Austine: but you tell vs not where we ſhall finde it. But if thoſe wordes be Austines (as it may be that they are) they wyll, and doo ſerue much better againſt you and your ſort: then they can againſt vs.

And thus much to your fift Reaſon: which I haue called Fraudulent, for the cauſe afore mencioned.

¶The • ixt Reaſon.

YOur ſixt and laſt Reaſon, moſt weyghtie of all, is this: Becauſe, if we wyll refuſe the authoritie, of the Churches abſolute iudgement vppon the ſcriptures true ſence: We ſhall ſéeme plainely to deny the holy Ghoſt to be the ſpirite of trueth. &c. This Reaſon I haue called Fanaticall. For that in making ſo great an accoumpt of this Reaſon: you ſéeme not to be in your right wittes. What bedlem would abuſe the wordes written in the fowretéene of Iohn as you doo: to prooue, that becauſe our Sauiour Chriſte dyd praye for, and obtayne, and dyd giue the holy Ghoſt, the ſpirite of trueth, to his holy Apoſtles, and dyd promiſe that the ſame ſhould remayne with them for euer, and inſtruct them in all trueth: therfore the ſame holy Ghoſt muſt néedes be, and remayne ſtyll in that Church, which agréeeth with the Church of the Apoſtles onely in name, and is no more lyke the Apoſtles Church in doctrine and manners, then blacke is lyke to whyte, and God is lyke the Diuell.

The Wiſe man ſayth,Sap. 4. that Wiſedome wyll not enter into a malicious ſoule: neyther wyll ſhe dwell in a body that is ſubiect to ſinnes. For the holy ſpirite of Wiſedome, flyeth from deceite. &c. And ſhall we thinke that the holy Spirite of trueth hath bene, and wyll be ſtyll amongſt ſuch a rabble of Popes, Cardinalles, and other Catholiques, as your owne Hiſtories make mencion of, that haue (beſides theyr beaſtly lyfe) made decrées directlie, contrarie to Gods commaundements? Yea, ſhall we thinke that the Spirite of Chriſte, dwelleth amongſt thoſe Catholiques, that at this day doo in the twentie and fiue Seſſion of the Councell of Trent, pronounce all ſuch accurſſed,Tom. 4. as doo ſhewe them ſelues, eyther by doctrine or otherwiſe, to miſlyke with the hauing of Images in Churches: ſeeing the ſame is dyrectly contrarie to the ſecond commaundement of God? Shall we thinke that the holy ſpirite of God, dyd guide thoſe your Catholique Fathers, when they dyd in the ſame Seſſion, blanche the counterfeyting of Gods Maieſtie by an Image?

And thinke you that Eſay the Prophet, if he were now lyuing,Eſai. 59. would allowe your applying of his wordes to ſuch Catholiques, and to theyr doinges: ſéeing the ſame Prophete dooth ſo earneſtly ſpeake againſt the making of Images,Eſai. 44. ſcorning bothe them and theyr makers, and plainly affyrming that they be good for nothing.

The Scribes, the Phariſies, the high Prieſtes, and Doctors of the lawe: might as well haue mainteyned, theyr corrupt Doctrine and Traditions againſt Chriſt and his Apoſtles (euen by thoſe words of Eſay, that you applie for your purpoſe) as you may now by the ſame, mayntaine all the corrupt Doctrines and Traditions of your Catholiques. For they dyd then perſwade them ſelues (as you doo now) that the promiſe was made to them, & could not but be perfourmed to them. And that therfore Chriſte and his fauters, were Sciſmatiks and méete to be excommunicated, as by them they were, in déede, and as by you, we be now.

But to our great and vnſpeakable comfort: our ſauiour Chriſte hath foretolde vs of this, ſaying. Theſe wordes haue I ſpoken vnto you, that you ſhould not be offended.Iohn. 16. They wyll excommunicate you, and the time will come, wherin whoſoeuer ſhall hyll you, will think that he dooth God good ſeruice.

And that promiſe alſo, that you would ſ • me to reioyce ſo much in • ia in déede as cōfortable to vs, as you would haue men thinke that it is to you.

We knowe that the Spirite of trueth departeth not from Chriſte in his members the Church, the true and vnfeyned Catholique Church. Neyther doo the wordes that the heauenly Father put into the mouth of Chriſt, his onely begotten Sonne, depart out of his mouth, the true Catholique Church: and yet dare not we make that Church▪ Iudge of that worde. For they were not put into her mouth to that ende, that ſhée ſhould iudge them: but that ſhée ſhould in all her doinges, be iudged tryed, and directed by them.

As ſottiſhe as you ſay, our opinion is: we are ſo farre from holding, that euerie priuate man, may haue leaue to be his owne Iudge in vnderſtanding the Scripture: that we doo not graunt it to the beſt learned, but doo leaue it to him, that béeing (with humilitie of minde) ſought in the Scriptures, wyll be found there, yea, euen by Crafts men, ſuch as was Peter, and his fellow fiſher men. For he reſpecteth not mens perſons, nor Occupations. And vnto them that ſo ſéeke him there (whether they be many or fewe) he wyll open the ſence of vnderſtading, that they may vnderſtand, as much as he knoweth to be méete for them to vnderſtand. And ſuch as haue that humble ſpirit, wyll not ſearch for, nor ſhewe them ſelues deſtrous to knowe, any more.

Well, now you conclude, vpon that which you ſay we muſt néedes graunt, that is, that the Church is our mother, as Scripture ſayth. Well, I am glad that you are now become a Scripture man. But I pray you, where is that Scripture written, that ſayth, that your Catholique Church is our mother? It wyll be harde for you to finde it.

I wryte not this, as one that would deny the Church that is the Spowſe of Chriſte, to be the mother of Chriſtians, in that ſence that ſhe is the Spowſe of Chriſte: But I write thus, to let you ſée, that I lyke not with your manner of concluding vpon this, being once graū ted. That this mother of ours, that muſt néedes teach all her chyldren, fyrſt to beléeue in God (for that faith commeth by hearing) and alſo to know the Scriptures, and is the pyller and ſure ſtay of trueth: muſt néedes be the abſolute Iudge, and imperiall Schoolemiſtreſſe, to teach vs all, how to beléeue in God, and to vnderſtande the Scriptures.

This geare hangeth together lyke Iermans lyps (as the prouerbe is:) If you had ſayde thus.

The Church (being the ſpowſe of Chriſte) is our mother, and hath receyued commiſſion, from her huſband, and our father Chriſt, to teach vs all thoſe things that he hath taught and commaūded her to doo, & to teach vs his children to doo: wherfore, if we ſhall not hearken to her, as to our chéefe Schoole miſtreſſe, vnder her huſbād and our father, ſo long as ſhe teacheth nothing, but that which our father hath commaunded her to teach vs: we ſhall diſpiſe him, becauſe we deſpiſe her, as it is written. Qui vos ſpernit, Luke. 10. me ſpernit: He that deſpiſeth you, deſpiſeth me.

If you had written thus: a man might haue made ſome ſence of your wordes. But as you haue written, you ſéeme to make the gray Mare the better Horſe. And to ſpoyle our Father Chriſte of all his power: that our Mother, his Wife, may not be found with out abſolute power.

I ſée not therfore, why I may not for this blindneſſe of your heartes, ſay as iuſtly to you, as S. Paule dooth to the Galathians. O inſenſati. &c. Oh you fooliſh fellowes, who hath bewitched you, not to obey vnto the trueth? which euen of Infants and ſucking Babes (as it were) is diſcerned, as cléere as the Sunne. So that you muſt not diſdayne, though Maiſter Trippe, doo tryppe you in your owne turne, as a ſéely ſeducer, to maintaine (as you doo all) ſo groſſe an opinion, béeing the forreſt in déede, for all ſuch Foxes to litter theyr whelpes in. And héere you ſéeme to haue had one fling at Maiſter Foxe alſo: becauſe you vnderſtoode that he is one allowed in the Kéepers warrant, to haue conference with you.

I meruayle, howe Maiſter Turnebull eſcaped your frumpping pen. But to conclude this aſſercion. Acquite your ſelfe as well as you can, why you ſhould not all be ſuſpected to be Antichriſtians, for as much as you doo ſo ſtowtly mayntayne that man of ſinne, that ſetteth vp himſelfe aboue all that is called God, and ſitteth in the Temple of God, and boaſteth himſelfe, as though he were God. Whome the Lord ſhall deſtroy, euen with the breath of his mouthe. And that worde, that you woulde haue to be iudged by your Antichriſtian Churche: ſhall iudge bothe Antichriſte and his Church. And that holy Ghoſt that came downe from Heauen, vpon our Chriſtes Apoſtles, hath remayned, and dooth ſtill remaine, and to the ende of the world ſhall remaine with his Catholique Church. That is, with that Church, which beléeueth, holdeth, and proteſteth, that Catholique Faith, that Ieſus Chriſte, commaunded his Apoſtles, to teach Catholiquely, to all Nations and ſortes of peoples, in all parts of the world. Promiſing that the holy Ghoſt ſhould alwayes remaine with the faithfull, to direct them in all trueth, and godlineſſe of lyuing.

Thus, hauing firſt conſidered, the wordes of our Sauiour, in ſending vs to the Scriptures, ſaying: Searche the Scriptures. &c. I haue founde that the concluſion that you make vppon the manner of ſpeach, that our Sauiour vſeth in that place of Saint Iohn his Goſpell, is not. Secundum vnanimen conſenſum Patrum: (that is) According to the agréeable conſent of the Fathers: and therefore condempned by your Fathers, in the Councell of Trent, in the fowrth Seſſion.

Saint Austine, dooth accoumpt acurſſed, whatſoeuer is taught, other then out of the Scriptures, of the Lawe and the Goſpell. Lib. 3. Chap. 6. Againſt the Letters of Petilian. And in his booke of Chriſtian doctrine, and the .37. Chap. He ſaith: that without the authoritie of Scripture: our Faith dooth but ſtacker or ſtumble. And againe, in his .166. Epiſtle, he ſayth: That bothe Chriſte and his Church, are learned to be knowne in the Scriptures.

Baſill ſayth,In Aſceticis. that whatſoeuer is taught without the holy Scripture, is ſinne.

Chryſostome, in his ſecond expoſition vppon Mathew, ſayth: that the true Church cānot other wiſe be known then by the holy Scriptures. Homilia. 49.

Yea, Saint Auſtine, in his firſt booke that he wrote, againſt the Epiſtle of Parmenianus, and the ſecond Chap: dooth accoumpt it to be raſhneſſe, to giue credite, to any, that dooth not prooue by Scripture, that which he affyrmeth.

I dare not therefore, giue credite to that which you haue written, tyll you prooue it by Scripture.

As for your ſixe Reaſons that you ſtay vpon, I haue conceyued, and doo vnderſtand what they be. And as in the beginning of your Pamphlet, you deſire: ſo haue I taken Pen in hande, and haue done what I can to confute them. And as I thinke, haue doone it ſufficiently. If you can replie, doo you take pen in hande againe, and doo what you are able. I wyll not refuſe to trie the trueth of theſe matters, with you, or with the beſt on your ſide.

Haec eſt fides mea: quia vera, Chriſtiana, Catholica, & Apoſtolica.

This is my Faith: becauſe it is the true, Catholique, and Apoſtolique Faith.

Robertus Crowleus. Subſcripſit Henricus Trippe, Hijs quae à Domino R. C. reſponſa ſunt.

¶Now to your Reaſons.

YOur firſt Reaſon is groūded vpon a falſe principle: for you imagine our church to be without a Miniſterie, to teach and open the Scriptures, which is not ſo, yea rather your Préeſtes are mute, and not onely that, but ye cloſe vp the booke of God, & will not let it be read, to make the Scriptures wholy mute, leaſt they might bewray your corruptions. But God be thanked, God hath opened the mouthes of many by the Scriptures, to witnes agaynſt your errors, and ſo iudge you by the ſame wordes, if you amend not.

Your ſecond Reaſon pretendeth that the Scripture is verie full of hard & déepe myſteries: ſurely I confeſſe that the Scripture hath his harde Miſteries and hard places, but hath it not alſo his eaſie familyar doctrines? Is there not meate for all Eſtates, Milke for babes, and ſtrong meate for good ſtomacks. But I dare be bolde to auouch, that it was Sathans policie, to robbe the people of the whole vſe of the Scriptures, vnder pretence of ambiguitie, as though the whole Scriptures were nothing elſe, but Rydles. As for the tryall of harde places, the learned haue ſet downe two excellent rules, which I meruaile you can reiect: the one is conference of Scripture with Scripture, the other is begging of wiſedome of God, who giueth it to the Babes & lyttle ones, and hydeth it from the wiſe in their owne conceyte, who ſtumble at playne places, not being dyrected by Gods ſpirite. But howſoeuer they labour to trie the ſpirites, or whatſoeuer knowledge they doo attaine, they leaue the ſuueraigntie of the iudgement to the word.

Your thyrde Reaſon, grounded on Saint Peters teſtimony▪ 2. Peter. 1. Erreth, in not conſidering what the Apoſtle meaneth, by priuate or not priuate, you ſéeme to place it in the multytude of perſonnes, that giue the interpretation: but the Apoſtle placeth it in the authoritie of the Author of the word. Therefore, one Prophete ſpeaking in the Lordes name, being truely ſent from the Lorde, is more to be beléeued, then the whole packe of Préeſtes, reſiſting of mallice, or ignorance, and they being many, are priuate, and one Prophete, being but one, is not priuate.

Secondly, you pretende that euerie man may interprete the Scriptures as he lyſteth, which is a falſe charge. But we deſyre them, and allowe them to reade the Scriptures, and to ſée whether thoſe thinges which we teache them, be ſo or no, according to the example of the faithfull. Acts. 17. And as they are commaunded by Chriſte, and the Apoſtle. 1. Iohn. 4.

In your fowrth Reaſon, whyle you went about to temper our pride, as you ſay, it ſéemeth you diſtēpered your own wits, in putting downe, ſo many things in ye name of vnwritten verities, which notwithſtāding are written: you aſke of the matter when I ſuppoſe ye meane ye termes, brought in by the Fathers to expreſſe the doctrine more plainlie. As the word Trinity, perſon, and other, to make plaine the doctrine againſt the Arrians. Héere you were foully ouerſéen. And you would make as beléeue, that the Church hath authoritie to poynt vs new • Articles of faith, without warrant of ſcripture: ſhe was wont to challenge ſome liberty in Ceremonies, & indifferent things, but you giue her power in Articles of faith.

Your fift Reaſon ſtumbleth on the falſe principle, whereon you grounded your firſt Reaſon, where you iudge no gouernment to be in our Church, becauſe we giue the higheſt rule to the worde, & gouerne thereby, as by a moſt perfect lawe: after which no newe Parliament néede to be called, to adde or diminiſhe from it, but all men of all eſtates ought to put to theyr hands to ſée it executed and kept: for the which cauſe (if they at any tyme aſſemble) the worde written is theyr direction.

Againſt your ſixt Reaſon, I auouch that he that appealeth to the iudgement of the written worde, dooth yéelde a moſt waighty Reaſon, to ratifie the ſending of the holy Ghoſt to his Church, and that it is the ſpirite of trueth. For 〈◊〉 the Apoſtles were ſo mightely endewed with the ſpirite, that they bothe taught, and left in writing, the whole Coūcels of God, enough to make the man of God perfect. &c: Then the Church that challengeth the promiſe of that ſpirite, wherewith they were endewed, muſt ſubſcribe to that trueth which they haue lefte written: for whatſoeuer is not agreeabl • thereto, commeth from an other ſpirit, oppoſing it ſelfe againſt the ſpirit of God, which is neuer contrarie to it ſelfe.

Thus I haue bréeflie layde down 〈…〉 which I could haue done more at large: but Ma • ſter Crowley hath giuen you matter enough, and yet more then eyther he or I can wryte, is ſet downe by Chemnicius and others, whoſe Treatiſes you might doo well, eyther to reade for your learning, or to impugne if you be able.

¶Your well wyller. H. T. FINIS.