An Aunswer to sixe Reasons, that Thomas Pownde, Gentleman, and Prisoner in the Marshalsey. at the commaunde­ment of her Maiesties Commissioners, for causes Ecclesiasti­call: required to be aunswered. Because these Reasons doo moue him to think, that controuersies and doubts in Religion, may not be Iudged by the Scriptures, but that the Scriptures must be Iudged by the Catholique Church.

  • 1. The first is, for that the Scriptures are mute and dum.
  • 2. The second, for that they be full of harde and deepe mysteries.
  • 3. The thirde, for that S. Peter sayth: No Scripture is to be taken after any priuate interpretation.
  • 4. The fourth, for that to appeale to the Scriptures, dooth seeme to denie all vnwritten verities.
  • 5. The fyft is, for that it were a great absurditie, not to haue a certaine Iudge of absolute Authoritie, in the interpreting of Scriptures. &c.
  • 6. The sixt is, for that in refusing the Authoritie of the Churches absolute Iudgement herein: we seeme to denie the holie ghost, to be the spirite of trueth.

Written by Robert Crovvley.

¶Imprinted at London by John Charlewood. 1581.

¶To all the Pope his Catholiques, in England or else where.

IN September last, I with others, was by suffici­ent Authoritie, appointed to cōfer, with such of your sort, as at that tyme, were in her Maiesties prisons, of the Mar­shalsey & the white Lion, in Sowthwark, restrained of ly­bertie, for refusing to con­forme themselues to that order of Religiō, which is now publique in this Realme of England. And according to our duety in that behalfe: Maister Henrie Tryp, and I, did (as we were required) make our spedy repaire, first to the one prison, and then to the other. And after some confe­rence had with certain that were close prisoners: we came to confer with one Maister Thomas Povvnde Gentleman, in the lodging where he then laye. And finding him al­togeather vnwylling to enter into any conference by speaches, because (as he sayd) he feared to fall into daun­ger of Lawe therby: I aunswered, that he ought to haue a better opinion of her Maiestie, (by whose appointment, we were come to offer cōference) then to thinke that she would send vs, to entrap him, or any other her subiects. For she needeth not to seeke more aduantage against a­ny of them, then that which already by their disloyall behauiour they haue giuē her. So that if she would pro­ceede against them in rigour of lawe, and not in mercie: she might cut their heads from their shoulders, and make no more to doo with them. But being desirous, by some meanes to bring to passe, that they might become as o­bedient subiects to her, as she both hath and dooth shew her selfe a louing Prince to them: she would not abridge [Page] them of lybertie (which for good and iust, yea necessary causes, shee is now enforced to doo) but that shee would withal prouide, that by cōferēce with such as be learned, they might either be drawn from their errours: or els be found to be obstinate and wilfully blinde. But none of these speaches could mooue maister Pownd to like of any conference by speaches. Yet notwithstanding, he sayd he was ready to confer by wryting, and offered so to doo. Whereunto I aunswered, that we had no commission to deale that way: but yet if he would write, I promised to aunswer him in writing. Vpon this he pulled a Pāphlet out of his bosome (the copie wherof I haue caused to be set before mine aunswer) & called in such as he thought meete to heare it read. And after he had read it: he deliue­red it to me to be aunswered. And this was done the. 7. day of September. The ninth of the same month, I began to shape him an aunswer: and finished the same with as much conuenient speed as I could, being letted with busi­nes, besides that busines, enough to occupy som mā tho­rowly. But by Gods helpe, the time was not long before the aunswer was finished. But in this meane whyle (I know not by what occasion) Maister Povvnd, was remo­ued to another prisō, further of: so that I could not come to delyuer mine aunswer to him, neyther did I thinke it meete to be sent to him immediatly from me, because I vnderstoode, that the right Reuerend Father the Lorde Bishop of London, had commaunded him to be remoo­ued thence. I did therefore reade, in the hearing of as many of your sorte, as I then found in the Marshalsey, bothe the Reasons contayned in Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet: and also mine aunswers to the same. Promi­sing, that with as much speede as I might, I would send bothe to my sayd Lord the Bishop, with my Letters, be­seeching him, at his discretion, eyther to send mine aun­swer to Maister Pownd: or els to cause him to be brought back againe to the Marshalsey, whether I might repaire, [Page] to proceede in conference with him by writing. But my sayde Lorde, being oppressed with other affaires more waightie: and thereby enforced to commit this busines to some other, that were not so carefull for the dispatch thereof, as I would they had. And I my selfe also (not al­together vnoccupied otherwise) did not, (as in dutie I ought) call vpon my sayd Lord, but supposing that mine aunswer had beene shortly conuayed to Maister Povvnd, (because I heard not of his returne to the Marshalsey) I rested, looking to haue receyued some replie from him: tyll at the last (euen in the Moneth of December last) I heard that the Copies of his Pamphlet were made com­mon to many of your sorte, with great brags, that the reasons therein contayned are vnaunswerable. Yea, and some of our side, were required to aunswer them, euen as Maister Povvnd had required me. Whereupon, repayring to my sayd Lorde the Bishop: I receaued my sayde aun­swer againe the 4. of this Ianuarie, with his allowance to publish it in Printe, together with the Copies of Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet, and the breefe aunswer that Mai­ster Trippe wrote, after I had finished mine, as by the same may appeare. And this was thought needefull to be don, because the Copie of Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet is al­ready made so common: our annswers being as yet, made knowne but to fewe. And that you may haue that firste in sight that you like best: I haue caused the Printer to place the Copy of Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet, immedi­atly after this short Epistle. Reade these Reasons for your pleasure, and our aunswers for your profite. And if you mislike with our aunswers, replie, if you can. You shall finde them of our side, that will deale with you, faithfully and freendely too. Be not obstinately, and wilfully blinde: least you doo thereby prouoke (yea and enforce) our mercifull Prince, contrary to her naturall inclination, to deale with you in Iustice without mercie. [Page] Though we haue great cause to thinke that you (all the sorte of you) doo hate both: our Prince and vs, for that Religion which bothe she and we do professe: yet I dare assure you, that bothe she, and all the Honorable & lear­ned of her Realme, yea and all, of all estates, that doo vn­fainedly professe that Religion that you hate, doo vnfai­nedly looue you, and pray for the opening of the eyes of your vnderstanding, that you may see and feele, and em­brace your saluation in Christe, and that being English­men, or inhabiting within the English dominions, you may know and acknowledge her Maiestie, for your su­preme Gouernor in all causes, next and immediatly vn­der Christe, our onely vniuersall head. Fare you well. From my house at S. Gyles without Creplegate of London, the. 6. of Ianuarie. 1580. After the accoumpt of the Church of Eng­lande, and in the. 23. yeere of her Maiesties Reigne.

Yours, when you shall shew your selues to be true Christians, and English men: Robert Crovvley, Clerk.

7. September. 1580. ¶Sixe Reasons set downe to shew, that it is no orderly way in cōtrouersies of faith, to appeale to be tryed only by Scriptures (as the absurde opinion of all the Sectaries is) but the sentence & definition of the Catholike Church, by whome, as by the Spowse of Christ, alwayes inspired with the holy ghost, the holy Scripture is to be iudged.

FIrst consider well these words of our Sa­uiour in sending vs to the Scriptures, saying: Searche the Scriptures, for you thinke to haue eternall life in them. And these are they that beare witnesse of me. Marke well these wordes,Iohn. [...]. I say: that the Scripture is but witnesse bearer to the trueth, and not the Iudge to discerne of trueth: for iudgement giuing belongeth not to the witnesse bearer, although he be as a rule to leade and direct the Iudge in true iudgement. But what if this witnesse should be currupted, as no man will deny but it may, yet this Iudge to whome the holy Ghost is promised, will finde it, and reforme it. Vnderstād ther­fore my Reasons, why of necessitie the Church must be Iudge of the Scriptures, and take your Pen and con­fute them I pray you if you can.

1. The first is,The first Reason. because the written Text is mute and dumbe, vttering nothing to vs from the Booke but on­ly the wordes, and not the sense, wherein the lyfe as it were of the Scripture consisteth: And what definitiue sentence can such a Iudge giue, to ouer rule the concey­ted minde of an opinatiue man: which hath no euident [Page] meanes to pronounce any iudgement against him, but onely to shewe him a dumbe signe in writing, which a wrangler may conster styll to his owne vnderstanding against all the worlde.

2 The second Reason is, because the holy Scripture (as S. Augustine sayth)The secōd Reason. is very full of harde and déepe anysteries, in so much that when Honoratus sayd to him (as many vnlearned men say now a dayes) that he vn­derstood it well enough without helpe of any instructor. Say you so (sayth he) you would not take vpon you to vnderstand such a Poet as Terence is, well, without a Maister? and dare you rushe into the holy Scriptures which are so full of Diuine mysteries, without a Maister? and dare you rushe into the holy Scriptures which are so full of Diuine mysteries, without a guide? All Heresies (sayth he) come of nothing else, Nisi dum scripturae bonae intelliguntur non bene: But whyle the good Scriptures are not well vnderstoode: Héerto also S. Peter in his second Epistle Cap. 3. beareth witnesse say­ing: That many misunder stood S. Paule in many harde places peruersly to their owne perdition: But then you will say, the harde places may easely he vnderstoode by conference of other Scriptures. Well, admit a chyldish reason for a worde or two, That because they might so be among the humble minded, therfore they must néeds be so, though men be neuer so peruerse: Yet giue mée leaue to pose you then one Question farther to ye quick. Howe is it possible to knowe by any conference of the Scriptures, which is Canonicall Scripture and which is not? certainely, if any Infidell would deny the olde Testament (as some Heretikes in time past haue done) and I praye God there be not many▪ Atheistes at this day in England, which be farther gone yet then they: Yea, if such a one should deny all the newe Testament also, we haue no sure Anckor holde against him but the Reuelation of God, by tradition to his Church, which is the pyllor and sure stay of trueth, which S. Augustine well séeing, thought he might be bolde to say, with due [Page] reuerence to God, and holie Scripture bothe: I should not beleue the Gospell except the authoritie of ye Church did moue me thereunto, meanyng that the tradition of the vniuersall Churche, and the testimonie of all the peo­ple of God, in whom the holie Ghoste dwelleth, must iu­stly moue vs to credite that, whiche their authoritie doth commaunde vs to giue credite vnto. Therefore let any man beware of fliyng from the Churches Iudgement, to the Scripture onely, least the Scripture it self should vtterly bee denied, as by some Atheistes in Englande (as I heare saie is alreadie: And then might suche Infidels laugh all Heretickes to scorne, for robbyng them selues of their owne defence: But now to returne to my pur­pose, if conference of one Scripture with an other, might giue light enough to all men: How happeneth it that all Sects, vsing that conference, yet thei can neuer agrre in their opinions, but diuers men, and all vsing suche confe­rence, doe yet construe it diuersly? The vttermoste shifte thei haue is this, (suche a weake one as it is,) that the Reader must giue hymself to prayer, for the truthe to be reuealed vnto hym. Wherein marke I praie you the iu­tollerable pride of arrogant Hypocrites: that thei will first mistrust Gods reuelation of the truthe to his Vni­aersall Churche, for the whiche Christe himself hath pra­yed, and promised to teache them all tr [...] moste presumptuously to come and [...]pt God, to haue that truthe reuealed onely to them selues, whiche beyng reuealed many hundreth yeares agone, and defined in generall Counsell, by all the holie Fathers: where the holie Ghoste is alwaies present, or at leaste by the holie Doctors in their writynges set doune, yet thei will not beleeue it, nor harken vnto it: yet this is their course, and so as thei saie forsoothe, thei praie very hartely, though fewe of them can wring out any teares in their praiers, but yet with suche a faithe in the Lorde (as their owne terme is) that they dooe all verely beleeue the truthe is [Page] reuealed vnto them. And yet perdie, thei must needes be all deceiued, as long as thei dwell in dissention, and are not in errors onely, but one contrarie to an other: who now must be the Iudge to trie the spirites whether they be of God or no, but onely the Churche? Or els shall thei not bee tried at all, but continuall permission for infinite Legions of liyng spirites, to be still vndetected that thei maie seduce more and more.

3 The third Reason is,The third Reason. 2. Pet. 1. d. because S. Peter saieth plainly, that no Scripture is to bee taken after any miuate inter­pretatiō, for it was not vttered after the will and fantasie of man, but as holie men of God spake it, inspired by the holy Ghost: yet most contrary to this expresse rule, euery priuate mā shall haue libertie to interprete it to his owne peruers will▪ after a priuate interpretation, otherwise then at first it was inspired to the holy men. If euer man maie appeale from the Ecclesiasticall sence of the vniuer­sall Churche to the Text it self, as he vnderstandeth it.

4 The fourth Reason is,The fourth Reason. becausé by appealyng onely to the Scripture, you séeme to giue men libertie to denie all vnwritten verities, which wee haue receiued of the Churche, either by expresse definition in generall Coun­saile, or but by tradition. And I beleeue at my firste na­ [...] of unwritten verities: Maister Crowley and his [...] straight waie, as though all suche were [...] to temper their follie (I will not saie their pride) a [...] that point. I aske them all this question. How thei proue the Trinitie of persones in the Vnitie of the substaunce in Godheade by the expresse Scriptures? Or the two distinct natures in Christe and but one person? Or God the Father to be Ingenitus? Or the proceedyng of the holy Ghoste, both from the Father and from the Sonne, as from one Fountaine: or the des­cendyng of Christ into Hell, by plaine wordes of Scrip­ture? (beyng therefore of many now a daies flatly deuy­ed,) Or the custome of Baptising of Infants, seeyng the [Page] Scripture, soundeth rather, as though thei should bee taught first their faith, before their were Baptized, saiyng: Goe and teathe all Nations Baptizyng them. &c. Or why we should kéepe the Sondaie now at all, and not the Saterdaie rather whiche was the Iewes Sabothe daie, that the Scripture speaketh of to be sanctified? Although your Puritanes which goe to plough vpon all the Chur­ches Holydaies, seeme not yet to know the Sondaie, for any of their makyng: or why we should not abstaine now still like Iewes from strangled meates, as the Apostels once decreed in the Acts, and by no expresse Scripture a­gaine abrogated? Yea then why maie not any Hereticke denie al our thrée Créedes: both the Apostles Créede, the Nicen Creede as it is called, & the Creede of Athanasius, seing neuer a one of these is written in Scripture expres­ly, but all lefte vs by tradition onely vpon credite of the Churche. Marke you not how these Bedlem Scripture men would shake all the foundations of our Christian faith, by binding vs to beleue nothing but Scripture? Do not these blinde guides thinke you, leade us a trim daunce towarde infidelitie? Thus muche of the fourth Reason.

5 The fift is because that without a certaine Iudge for interpretatiō of Scripture absolutely,The fift Reason. this absurditie would followe yt God which is the Author of al perfectiō, and disposeth euery thing in swete & decent order, had left his vniuersall Church in yearth in this confusion: yt when soeuer any doubtfull question should arise, vpō construc­tion of his holy will, there were no prouision at all ordai­ned by God for deciding of such strifes, and preseruation of concord among his people, and then certainly the king­dome of Gods Churche, were not so well prouided for in their gouernment: as euery ciuill kindome is by pollicie of carnall men, amōgst whom, none almost are so barba­rous, but that thei haue Counsellers for gouernment of their state, & Iudges for expounding, & executing of their lawes, aswell as lawes written, or els it were ridiculus: would not he be counted a very wise man (thinke you,) [Page] in one of our Parliamentes, whiche should steppe vp like a graue Burgesse, and perswade all his fellowes that for asmuche as thei had a noble and an auncient Lawe writ­ten vnto them, the Realme should haue no longer neede henceforthe of any Prince, nor any Rulers, nor Peeres, nor Iudges, nor Iustices, nor ciuill Magistrates, but euery man (vppon his worde for the warrant) would bee content to gouerne hym self orderly by the lawe written, whiche (as his wisedome) thinkes is plaine enough. And truely no wiser be thei but muche more to bee laughed to scorne whiche will haue the Scripture to bee the onely Iudge for euery man to appeale vnto, and refuse all au­thoritie of the Churche in expoundyng thereof: for who knoweth not that the Arrian Heretickes, brought fortie places of Scripture for their horrible Heresie, more then the Catholikes had against theim, but all falsely vnder­stoode, whiche when it is so misunderstoode and misap­plied, then S. Augustine calleth it the Heretickes howe, wherewith they shoote out their owne venemous ar­rowes. And Vincent Lir. saieth, it is then the Sheepes cloathyng, whiche the Wolfe doeth shroude hym self in, because that when a simple bodie, feeleth the softnesse as it were of his fliece, he should not mistrust the Tyrannie of his teethe: That is to saie, of his false construction of Scripture, wherwith he would deuour his saule: So did the Deuill hymself alleadge Scripture vnto Christ, and as oft as any Heretikes aleadge Scripture to vs against the Catholike faith: So oft saieth Vincentius, we maie be out of doubt the Deuill doeth speake vnto vs by their mouthes, and saieth vnto vs euen as he saied vnto Christ Si filius deies, mitte te deorsum, as much to saie, If thou wile bee the sonne of God, and professor of his holy Gos­pell, cast thy self doune, from the high authoritie and tra­dition of this Catholike Churche, whom if wee aske a­gaine why we should so doe, then saieth Vincentius, he commeth out with Scriptum est enim: because it is writ­ten [Page] saieth he, in the holie booke, & from thence thou must learne a newe lesson of me, how to be a right Christian man. To whom we must saie then: Vade Satan non ten­tabis. &c. Auaunt Sathan, &c. and that with greate fer­uencie of faith: for more perillous is the temption of such a flatteryng Serpent (saieth S. Augustine) then the roa­ryng of an angrie Lyon, because the one wee flee from with feare, but the other with entising, maie come the ne­rer to sting vs.

6 The sixt reason most waightie of all is this: because if you will refuse the authoritie of the Churches absolute iudgement,The sixt Reason. vppon the Scriptures true cense, you shall seeme plainly to denie the holy Ghoste to be the Spirite of truthe, whiche vppon the Apostles and all the faithfull was sent doune with visible signes, and with his Church is promised to remaine vnto the worldes ende: by these wordes of our Sauiour, I will aske my Father, and he shall send you an other comforter, to tarie with you for euer, the spirite of truth: And a little after thus. The ho­ly Ghoste the comforter, whom my Father will sende in my name, shall teache you all truthe: Loe the Church is the surest Iudge, and none shure but the Churche, for all men in doubtes of Scripture, because it hath a promise that it shall neuer erre in iudgement, whiche is notably confirmed by the Prophet Esay, saiyng. This is my coue­naunt with them saieth our Lorde, my spirite whiche is in thee, and my worde which I haue put in thy mouth shal not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seede, nor of thy seedes seede, now, nor euer to the worldes ende. O most comfortable promise, that the Spirite of truth shall neuer departe out of the Churches mouth. O fit Iudge appointed to be Iudge of Scripture for our profites, without presumption. Remember then I praie you, what a sottishe opinion this is which is held to the contrarie, that euery priuate man, whom belike you wil imagine to be one of the Church, shall haue good [Page] beleue to be his own Iudge in vnderstandyng of Scrip­tures, as your Craftes men are: and yet that the autho­ritie of the whole vniuersall Churche, shall not presume to [...]ake any iudgement vpon them. Grauntyng this, as you must needes, that the Church, whiche is our Mother (as the Scripture saieth) must needes teach all her chil­dren, at first to beleeue in God (seyng faithe must come by hearing) and also to know the Scripture, and yet that the same Church being the piller and sure staie of touch, shall not be absolute Iudge & imperial Scholemistresse, to teache vs all how to beleue in God, and how to vnder­stande the Scripture. For the blindnesse of your hartes, I maie saie as iustly to you, as Sainct Paule saied to the Galathians. O Insensati &c. O ye foolishe fellowes, who hath bewitched you, not to obeye vnto the truthe? Which euen of Infantes and suckyng babes (as it were) is discerued as cleare as the Sunne? So that you must not disdaine Maister Trippe to be tripped in this matter, for a silie seducer, to maintaine (as ye doe all) so grose all opinion, beyng the forrest in deeds, for al suche Foxes, to litter their whelps in. Therefor [...] to conclude this Asser­tion: acquite your selues as well as you can, why you maie not all bee iustly suspected, to denie the descendyng of the holie Ghoste vnto the Churche, for as muche as you refuse the Churches sentence in iudge­ment, with whom the holie Ghoste is promised alwaies to remaine, and in truthe to directe them.

‘Haec est fides mea quia est Catholica.’‘This is my faith, because it is the Catholique faith.’
Thomas Pownde.

The Aunswere to Pownde, His sixt Reasons.

TO the six Reasons that you set doune, to proue, that to prouoke to be tryed by the holy Scriptures onely, in the con­trouersies that maie arise aboute Reli­gion, is no orderly waie: I might in fewe wordes aunswere, thus, The first Reason is fonde, the second is false, the thirde is foolishe, the fowerth is fantasticall, the fift is fradulent, and the sixt is fanaticall.

Thus might your Pamphlet bee aunswered in sixe wordes: as (before you did reade it, before so many wit­nesses as it pleased you to call to the hearyng of it) I told you that I thought it might.

But least you should triumphe, after your manner, and saie, that not beyng able to aunswere your Reasons at large, I shifte you of with shorte sentences: I will be­stowe some more tyme (whiche I could bestowe muche better) in aunsweryng your rude Reasones: I hope so, that neither you, nor any of your side, shall be able reaso­nably to replie.

The first Reason.

FIrst you saie, that suche controuersies, maie not bée tried by the holie Scriptures, because thei be mute and dumbe, vttering to vs, from the booke, nothing but onely the wordes, and not the sense, wherein the life (as it were) of the Scripture, doeth consist.

Howe fonde this Reason is. I thynke your self should see. For what sence can there bee in woordes, that can not bee vttered by woordes? Or what wordes can any manne vse in openyng the sense of woordes written, but that the same beeyng sette downe in [Page] writyng, maie as well open the cense: as thei might bee­yng spoken and not written? you seeme to imagine, that we would haue the holy Scriptures (as thei bee written in bookes, & enclosed in coueringes) to be Iudge of suche matters, as you speake of: for otherwise, how can you call them mute and dumbe?

The Prophet Ieremie was commaunded to write all the wordes of the Lorde against Iuda and Israell, and all other Nations, in a booke, and to cause the same to bee reade in the hearyng of all the people, and so he did, as ap­peareth in the .26. of his Prophesies, that euery manne might bee turned awaie, from their owne moste wicked waies, and so the Lorde might be mercifull to them. Af­ter this manner would we haue controuersies iudged by the Scriptures. Not as thei bee written and kepte se­cret in hookes: but beeyng reuereudly read, wayed, and considered, with the circumstaunces of person, tyme and place, with all other necessarie circumstaunces: so that the Readers, beyng willyng to haue their controuersies ended, dooe submit them selues to that iudgement, that thei shall finde in the Scriptures, so read, waied and con­sidered.

As for your Opinatiue man and wrangler, that you speake of: if he will stande still in his opinion (as you your self doe (notwithstandyng that it is made manifest, by the holy Scriptures, that his opiniō is not right: he must bee taken for an Hereticke, and after one or twoo war­nynges, reiected, beyng subuerted, as one that synneth euen condempned by his owne conscience.Titu. 3.

The seconde Reason.

Your second Reason I doe call false, for that you doe falsely reporte, that the holie Scriptures are full of harde and deepe misteries. And for that you do falsely affirme, that S. Austen did sharpely reboke Honoratus▪ for rush­yng so boldely into the holie Scriptures, where as he would not be so bolde, as to take vpon him to vnderstand [Page] suche a Poet as Terence was without a Maister.

Firste, I would wishe you to weigh well the wordes of S. Paule, written to Timothie. Doe thou (saieth S. Paule to Timothie)2. Tim. 3. continue in those thynges whiche thou hast learned, and are committed vnto thee, kno­wyng of whom thou hast learned them, and that thou hast known (euen from thine Infancie) the holy Scrip­tures, which are sufficient to instructe thee to saluation, through that faithe whiche is in Christe Iesus. Euery Scripture that was written by diuine inspiratiō, is pro­fitable to teache, to correct, to reproue, and to instructe in righteousnesse, that the man of God maie be perfectly in­structed to euery good worke.

If all Scriptures, bee so full of harde and deepe mi­steries (as you haue saied) then can not any Scripture bee so profitable to teache &c. As Sainct Paule telleth Timothie: That all Scriptures be, neither can the man of GOD bee thereby perfectly instructed to euery good worke.

We reade,Luk. 24. that our Sauiour Christe, did sharply re­prehende his two Disciples, as he walked with them to­wardes Emaus, for that thei were so dull and harde to be­leeue, that whiche the Prophetes had so plainly spoken. Ought not Christe (ꝙ he) to sufter these thinges, and so to enter into his glorie? As though he should haue saied: are you so doltishe and blockishe, that you vnderstande not so plaine speeches as the Prophets haue vsed concer­nyng the sufferyng es of Christe?

And appearyng to them afterwardes, as thei were altogether in Ierusalem: He telleth them, that of necessi­tie, all muste bee fulfilled, that had beene written concer­nyng him, either in the lawe of Moyses, in the Prophets, or in the Psalmes. And that thei might vnderstande the Scriptures, he did then open their vnderstandynges: Whereby it appeareth, that it was not the hardnesse and deepenesse of the misteries (wherewith, as you saie the [Page] Scripture is full) that helde them from the vnderstan­dyng thereof: but the dulnesse of their owne vnderstan­dyng, because thei were as yet but carnall: and therefore coulde not perceiue thynges belongyng to the spirite of God, as Sainct Paule hath written.1. Cor. 2. The naturall man, doeth not perceiue these thynges that doe belong to the spirite of God. Not that we bee of our selues, as of our selues,2. Cor. 3. sufficient to thinke any thyng, but our sufficiencie is of God. &c.

Now, for that whiche you haue cited, out of Austine, concernyng the reprehendyng of Honoratus: I would gladly knowe of you, what Honoratus it was that you speake of. One there was of that name, to whom Sainct Austine wrote his .120. Epistle. But that Honoratus was not like to vse any suche speeche to S. Austine. Neither doeth Sainct Austine in that Epistle, vse any suche speeche to hym, as you saie he did. But in the laste ende of the Epistle, Saint Austine sheweth hym self to be of an other mynde, then (by your reporte) your Au­stine seemed to be. For he saieth thus.

Habes librum, & si prolixum, tamen, quantum ex­istimo non superfluum. &c. Thou haste here a Booke (saieth Sainct Austine) whiche though it be long: yet, as I thinke, it is not superfluous. But doe thou loue the Ecclesiasticall writinges also, and thou shalte not finde many thynges, which thou shouldest neede to seeke for at my handes. But by reading and ruminating or cuddyng (if thou doe also purely praie vnto the Lorde, that is the giuer of all good thinges) thou shalt learne throughly, all those thynges, or vndoubtedly very many of those thin­ges, that are worth the knowyng, rather by his inspira­tion, then by any mannes admonition: Although, euen in the same thyng wherein wee doe with right iudgement allowe that man that doth outwardly admonish vs well: what other thing doe we, then testifie that we haue an in­warde light that doeth teache vs, and is our Maister? [Page] Thus farre Austine. Lette your freendes iudge, whe­ther it be likely, that this Austine, and this Honoratus, would vse suche speeches the one to the other, as you re­porte yours to haue doen.

One other Honoratus there was, to whom our S. Austine wrote his .161. Epistle. This man helde with Donatus: and in that Epistle Saint Austine doeth ex­horte hym, to render a reason quietly in writing, where­fore the name of the Church should at that time remaine onely among the Donatists.

There was also a thirde, Honoratus, to whom our S. Austine wrote his .179. Epistle. This man Saint Austine calleth brother and fellowe Bishop, and doeth instruct hym at large in the libertie of fliyng persecution: wherein he vseth not one worde, that maie bee wrested to that meanyng that you haue reported.

But you will saie, there is yet one other, to whome Saint Austine wrote his Booke, De vtilitate creden­di.

Suche an Honoratus there was in deede. But when you shall reade that Booke with more indifferent iudge­ment: you shall not finde, that Austine to bee of your mynde. Not muche before that place that you take holde of, writing of the truth of the Scripture, and noting that we ought to loue the Scripture before wee learne it: he writeth thus. Quicquid est (mihi crede) in Scripturis illis, altum & diuinum est. &c. Beleeue me (saieth Saint Austine) whatsoeuer thyng is in the Scriptures, the same is deepe and diuine: truthe is in it altogether, and a discipline that is moste meete for the refreshyng and re­storyng of myndes: and vndoubtedly, so moderated, that euery manne maie drawe therehence, enough to satiffie him self, if so be that he come to drawe after a deuout and Godly sorte, as true Religion requireth. And immedi­atly before the place that you seeme to take holde of: he [...]

[Page] By that interpretation that you make of the wordes that are written in the sixteene of Mathew: ye maintaine the grosse errour, of buildyng Christ his Churche vpon Peter the man,Aug. de ver­bis. Domi­ni. ser. 13. and not vpon Christ the Rocke: not with­standyng, that the best of the Catholique Doctors haue written to the contrarie. Yea, and herehence come all your Indulgencies and Pardones, with absolute power for your Pope to doe what he will▪ without checke or con­troulement.

I might here take iust occasion, to rehearse all those errors, that haue bene, and are holden by your sorte, and ascribe them all, to that whiche S. Austine speaketh of in the wordes that you cite: that is. That by your sort, the good Scriptures, are not well vnderstanded. But studi­yng to be breefe, I passe them ouer.

To proceede in mine Aunswere: you eatche holde of S. Peter. And he must needes helpe you to face out your lye.2. Pet. 3. If S. Peter will haue your fauour, he must needes beare you recorde, that the Scriptures are full of harde and deepe misteries, as you haue taught S. Austine to saie. But when the place that you cite shalbe weighed, with indifferent iudgement: it will be founde that S. Pe­ters meanyng, was not as you take is to be.

Sainct Peter hath written thus. But wee looke for newe heauens, and a newe earth, accordyng to his pro­mise, wherein dwelleth righteousnesse. Wherefore belo­ued, seeyng that ye looke for suche thinges thee dilligent, that ye maie be founde of hym in peace, without spot, and blamelesse. And suppose, that the long sufferyng of our Lorde, is saluation: euen as our beloued brother Paule (accordyng to the wisedome giuen vnto hym) wrote to you, as one that in al his Epistles, speaketh of those thin­ges, amongste whiche, some thynges are harde to be vn­derstanded, whiche thei that bee vnlearned and vnstable doe peruerte, as thei doe also other Scriptures to their owne destruction.

[Page] If you reade these wordes of S. Peter in the Greeke tongue (wherein the Apostle wrote them) you shall finde that the Relatiue [...], is of the newter gender, and cannot by the rules of Grammer, agree with [...], whiche is of the feminine gender. Wherefore, it must be Engli­shed, thus. In, or amongst which thinges or matters that Paule wrote of, and not, in those Epistles that he wrote: as in your application of Peters woordes, you seeme to vnderstande him to meane. But peraduenture, you haue no good likyng of the Greeke Text, neither of our La­tine translations. I will therefore set doune the wordes of S. Peter, euen as I finde them in the translation, that is allowed in the Counsell of Trent: and as thei be writtē in an old written Bible that I haue in Parchment, writ­ten, I knowe not how many hundred yeares past. Thus are thei written in the Bible. Propter quod charissimi, haec expectantes, satagite, immaculati & inuiolati ei in­ueniri in pace: & domini nostri longanimitatem, salu­tem arbitremini, sicut & charissimus frater noster Pau­lus, secundum datam sibi sapientiam, scripsit vobis, sicut & in omnibus epistolis, loquens in eis de hijs, in quibus sunt quaedam difficilia intellectu, quae indocti & insta­biles deprauant, sicut & caeteras scripturas, ad suam ip­sorum perditionem. And I thinke, that you your selfe would translate them into Englishe, thus. Wherefore, dearely beloued, waityng for these thinges, giue your en­deuour to be founde vnto hym in peace, beeyng without spot, and vndefiled: and thinke that the long sufferyng of our Lorde, is saluation, euen as our moste deare brother Paule (according to the wisedom that is giuen vnto him) hath written to you, euen as in euery Epistle, speakyng in them of those thinges, amongst whiche are some thin­ges, that are harde to be vnderstanded, whiche vnlearned and vnstable menne, doe depraue, euen as thei doe other Scriptures, to their owne destruction.

I trust you doe see now, that we neede not that rea­son, [Page] whiche you doe call childishe, and is not indeepe so childishe, but that it hath in all ages been (and is still) al­lowed amongst the learned, for the beste rule in vnder­standyng of places of the Scripture, wherein is any dif­ficultie.

But now you doe begge (or rather take) leaue, to pose vs one question furder, to the quicke. And thus you saie. How is it possible, to knowe by any conference of the Scriptures, which is Canonicall Scripture, and which is not? &c.

You seeme to bee perswaded that this question tou­cheth to the quicke in deede. For you affirme plainly, that if any Infidell, Hereticke, or Arbeist, shall denie any parte of the olde or newe Testament, or the whole olde and new Testament (as in tymes past some haue doen.) &c. We haue no Ankor holde against such, but onely the Reuelation of God to the Churche, by Tradition, which Churche is the piller, and sure staie of truth. &c.

I confesse, that the Church is the Piller and sure staie of truthe, as Sainct Paule writeth.1. Tim. 3. But that this truth is reuealed to the Churche by Tradition (as you write) that I denie. For God hath taught, (and doth still teach) the truthe to his Churche, by the worde of truth, and not by Reuelation or Tradition. And that worde of truthe is sufficient, and needeth not that any thyng should bee ad­ded to it: either by Reuelation, or by Tradition. Yea▪ there is an horrible cursse pronounced against all such as shall adde any thyng to in.

The true Catholique Churche, is in deede the Piller and sure staie, whereon, that truthe that is taught by the worde of truthe, doeth staie. For that worde of truthe, is the voyce of her Sheepeheard, and she delighteth in hea­ryng that voyce: but the voyce of a straunger she can not abyde to heare. The truthe taught by the voyce of her Sheepehearde, she laieth vp in her harte: and all her de­light is to lette men see it, in her life and conuersation, [Page] that séeing her good lyfe, they may be occasioned therby, to glorifie her spouse Christe, and his and her heauenly Father.

This is that authoritie, that S. Austine sayth, moued him to beléeue the Gospell. And this authoritie caused him to write thus, against that Epistle of Manichaeus, which the Maniches called theyr foundation.Tom. 6. Ego veró Euangelio non crederem, nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoueret authoritas. Surely, I would not beléeue the Gospell, except the authoritie of the Church dyd mooue me thereto.

Not many lines before those words, S. Austine sayth thus to the Maniches. Apud vos, vbi nihil horum est, quod me inuitet ac teneat. &c. That is: Amongst you, where no part of that thing is, which might allure and holde me, there soūdeth only a promising of the trueth: which vndoubtedly, if it be shewed foorth so manifestly, that it may not be doubted of: it is to be preferred be­fore all those thinges that doo holde me in the Church.

I pray you (Maister Pownde) ponder well these wordes of Austine: and be not afrayde with Austine to yéelde, to the manifest trueth, (when it shall be mani­fested to you) onely because it lacketh the consent of Peoples, and Nations, the authoritie of Myracles, the nourishment of hope, the increase of looue, the establish­ment of Antiquitie, the holde from Peters seate, the suc­cession of Priests, and the name of Catholique. For S. Augustine sayth: That the manifest trueth must be pre­ferred before all these.

But if you wyll marke it well, you shall finde that the trueth which we holde and teach, and would wishe you and all your sort to embrace, dooth not lacke the chéefest of those thinges that mooued S. Austine first to embrace it. For it is the same, that first gotte credite, by those Myracles that were wrought by Christe and his Apostles.Mark. 16. It was, and is styll nourished by hope: It [Page] was, and is styll increased by looue, it is also confirmed by that seate which you call Peters, and hath the succes­sion of Priests, although not in such sort as you allowe of. And last of all, it hath the right name of Catho­lique.

Thus, I hope, you doo now sée, that you haue not rightly applied, eyther the words of Paule, or of Austine: mynding thereby to prooue, that the Church of Roome, (being such a Church, as nowe it sheweth it selfe to be) is the Piller of trueth, and that Catholique Church, whereunto all Christians should and must of necessitie cleaue, if they wyll be saued by Christe.

Your conclusion, wherein you aduise all men to be­ware of fléeing from the Church, to the iudgement of the Scriptures onely. &c. Was not so aduisedly made, as were séemely to be made, by one that were so well séen in the writings of ye Fathers, as you would séeme to be. For (as I thinke, yea, I am perswaded, that I may safely affirme,) there is not one of the auncient Fathers, of your minde in that poynt.

Saint Austine, in his Epistle fortie and eight, writ­ten to Vincentius, sayth thus. Noli ergò frater, contra diuina tam multa, tam clara, tam indubitata testimo­nia. &c. Doo not therefore (Brother) shewe thy selfe wylling, to gather out of the wrytinges of Bishoppes, reproches against so heauenly, so many, so cleare, and so vndoubted testimonies: whether the same Bishops be on our side, as Hillarius, or of the vnitie it selfe, be­fore the faction of Donatus was separated from it, as Cyprian, and Agripinus: First for that, that kinde of writing must be distinguished, from the authoritie of the Canon, for they are not so read, that testimonie should be taken out of them, that it might not be law­full for any man, to be of a minde contrarie thereto, if perhappes they shall in any place be of other minde then the trueth requireth. For we are of that num­ber [Page] that may not disdayne, to take euen vnto our selfe, this saying of the Apostle. And if ye be of an other minde in any thing,Phil. 3. God wyll reueale the same to you also.

Thus you may sée, that S Austine dooth not allowe the sentence of any man, no nor the sentence of the vni­tie it selfe (which I vnderstand to be a generall Coun­cell) against the Canonicall Scripture.

The same Saint Austine, wryting to Saint Ie­rome in his fifteene Epistle,Epist. 15. sayth thus. Ego enim fa­teor charitati tuae. &c. I confesse (sayth S. Austine) I haue learned to giue this reuerende feare and honor, onely to those Bookes of the Scriptures, which nowe are called Canonicall: that I doe firmely beléeue, that none of the Authors of them, haue in wryting erred a­ny thing at all.

By this saying of Saint Austine, it may appeare, that he was of this minde, that there may be errour, euen in the decrées of your generall Councels.

Againe,De Bapt. Libr. 2. Cap. 2. against the Donatistes, Saint Austine wry­teth thus. Quis autem nesciat Scripturam canoni­cam. &c. Who can be ignoraunt (sayth Saint Au­stine) that the holy Scripture, as well of the olde as of the newe Testament, is conteyned within her owne boundes or lymittes: and that the same is so prefer­red before all the latter wrytings of Bishops, that con­cerning it, there may be no doubt or controuersie at all, whether any thing that is certainly knowne to be written in it, be true or right. And the writinges of Byshoppes, which haue bene, or be written, after the confirmation of the Canon, may be found faulte with (if it happen that any thing therein doo swarue from the trueth) eyther by more wyse spéeche of any other, that is more expert in that matter: or by the more graue Authoritie of other Bishoppes, or the wisedome of menne better learned, or by [Page] Councels, yea, and that the Councels them selues, which are holden in particular Regions, or Prouinces, must without any doubting, giue place, to the authori­tie of full Councels, which are made of the vniuersall Christian world. Yea, & that the full or generall Coun­cels that are first holden, may be amended by them that are holden afterwardes, when by any experience of thinges, that thing that before was shut, is made open, and that thing which lay hyd, is made knowne. And this may be done, without any hautinesse of sacrilegi­ous pride, without any swelling throte of arrogancie, without any contencion of spightfull enuie, with holie humilitie, with Catholique peace, and with Christian Charitie. Thus farre Austine.

Nowe I thinke you wyll confesse, that your Catho­lique Church may erre: or else that S. Austine, one of the Doctors of that Church dyd erre. For he sayth, that the latter generall Councels, may amend the former. He sayth also, that there may be no doubt or controuer­sie about the trueth of any thing, that is knowne to be written in the Canonicall Scriptures. Therefore, blame vs not, though we flée from the iudgement of the Church to the scriptures, which can neuer deceaue vs.

And as touching that inconuenience that you doo put vs in minde of, which is the denying of the Scriptures by Atheists: I pray you let me propone one question to you, and so pose you as night to the quicke as you haue posed vs. What if your Church should vtterly be de­nied to be the Church of Christe? Or what if those A­theists that be in Englande, or else where, should denie that Christe hath any Church at all: or that there is, or hath been, any such Christe as we beléeue in? Might not those Infidels (thinke you) laugh you to scorne, for rob­bing your selues of your owne defence,Ephe. 6. which is the worde of God, which Saint Paule calleth the sworde [Page] of the Spirite?

But now you wyll returne to your purpose. If con­ference of one Scripture with an other, might giue lyght enough to all men: Howe happeneth it, that all sectes vsing that conference, the sectaries can neuer a­grée in theyr opinions. &c. To this, not I, but S. Paule shall giue you aunswer.1. Cor. 11. Oportet haereses esse, vt hij qui probati sunt, manifesti sint in vobis. It can not be auoy­ded, but that there must be heresies, or sectes, that they which be tryed, may be made knowne amongst you. Let S. Paule defend his owne assertion, as he can. I wyll betake me to that vttermost shift that you say we haue, notwithstanding, that you call it a weake one.

Saint Austine sayth, that the Scriptures must be read, by such as doo vndoubtedly beléeue, that they are most true witnesses. And these are his wordes. Agant orando, De Trini. Libr. 15. & quaerendo, & bene viuēdo vt intelligant. &c. That is: They must labour by prayer, and by séeking, and by lyuing well: that they may vnderstand, that is, that they may sée in minde, (as much as may be séene) that which they doo holde by faith.Iam. 1. And S▪ Iames sayth. If any man lacke wisedome, let him aske it of God. &c.

Thus may you sée, that both S. Iames, and S. Austine doo allowe of this shift, which you doo accoumpt to be so weake, and such intollerable pride. Yea, S. Austine ad­deth these wordes. Quis hoc prohibeat? imó veró, ad hoc quis non hortetur? Who can forbid this? Yea rather, who wyll not exhort héerunto? doo you therfore accoūpt of it as you luste: we wyll styll vse it, as the ready way to attayne to that knowledge, that is necessarie for vs.

As for the reuealing of the trueth to the vniuersall Church, for which Christe him selfe dyd praye: we con­fesse that according to his promise, Christe hath reuea­led to them altogether, and to euery perticular member amongst them, as much as he knewe to be méete to be [Page] reuealed to them. And so be the wordes of his promise. Ille vos docebit omnia, & suggeret vobis omnia, quae cū ­que dixero vobis. He shall teach you all thinges, and he shall put you in minde of all those thinges, that I shall speake vnto you.

The pleasaunt pastime that you make, with the course that we take, in the searche and studie of the Scriptures, I passe ouer: for I knowe, that he onely to whome we pray, dooth know how faithfully we pray, and whether with teares or without. To him we shall stande, or fall▪ Iudge not you an other mans Ser­uaunt.

But you say, we must néedes be all deceyued, so long as we dwell in dissention, and are not in errours only, but also, one of vs contrarie to an other. And who now must be Iudge, to trie the Spirites, whether they be of God, or no? Onely the Church, (say you) or else they shall not be tryed at all. &c.

For the first, Saint Paule hath tolde you, that of ne­cessitie, sectes must be amongst men,1. Cor. 11. and euen amongst such as be of the Church of Christe: And that because, such as be allowed or tryed, can not otherwise be kno­wen. And as touching the other poynt, Saint Austine sayth thus. Contra insidiosos errores, Deus voluit pone­re firmamentum in scripturis, In. 1. Iohn Epist. Cap. 2. contra quas, nullus audet loqui▪ qui quoquo modo se vult videri Christianum. It was the pleasure of God, to set in the scriptures, a sure Bulwarke against deceytfull errours: against which Scriptures, no man, that is any way wylling to séeme to be a Christian, dare be bolde to speake.

As golde by the toutch stone, so are the spirites tryed by the Scripture. And euerie one that is skilfull in the scriptures, that is, that can by conferring of one scrip­ture with an other. finde out the meaning of the holy ghost in the scriptures: may be as bolde to vse the scrip­ture in the tryall of spirites, as the Goldsmith may be, [Page] to vse the toutch stone, in the tryall of mettalles. And if ye thinke that the conference of one Scripture with an other, be not the surest way to attaine to the true meaning of the Scriptures, looke Saint Austine, De Doctrina Christiana. Lib. 3. Cap. 26. And thus much for aunswer to your second Reason, which I haue called False.

The third Reason.

THe thirde Reason that mooueth you to thinke, that the Scriptures are to be iudged by the Church: is, for that S. Peter hath written,2. Pet. 1. That no Scripture is to be taken after any priuate interpretation. &c.

This Reason I haue called Foolishe, for that foolish­ly you doo rushe into the Epistle of Saint Peter, and re­port his wordes otherwise then he wrote them: and then you your selfe doo make a priuate interpretation of them, contrarie to the decrée made in the Councell of Trent: whereof you would séeme to make greatest accoumpt.

The words of Saint Peter, as they doo stande in that translation that the Coūcell of Trent hath allowed, are these. Hoc primùm intelligentes, quód omnis prophae­tia scripturae, propria interpretatione non fit. Vnder­standing this thing first: that no prophesie of the scrip­ture, is made by priuate interpretation. I meruayle howe you (being such a Catholique as you professe to be) durst set downe Peters wordes, otherwise then you finde them in that translation. For I am sure, you are not ignoraunt of the penaltie that the Councell hathSessio. 4. appointed for such doinges.

But this is not all your misdemeanour in this behalfe. For you make a priuate Interpretation, [Page] contrarie, bothe to the decrée, and also to this thyrde Reason of yours. For, to make a priuate interpretati­on, is to make such a one as differeth from the auncient wryters, and is not allowed of the Church. But where can you shewe me any auncient writer, that hath in­terpreted those wordes of Peter, as you doo?

Saint Austine medleth not with them. No more dooth S. Ierome, S. Ambrose, S. Gregorie, nor Chrysostome, nor any other of that tyme, that I haue séene, or can heare of.

Nicholaus Lyranus, writing vpon these wordes of S. Peter, sayth that the meaning of S. Peter, was to teach: that no propheticall Scripture hath begynning in, or dooth spring out of humane sense, or mannes meaning. For thus he wryteth. Propria interpretatione non fit, id est, Lyranus in. 2. Epi. Peter. non fit sensu humano: ideo subditur. Non enim vo­luntate humana allata est aliquando prophetia, sed spi­ritu sancto inspirati. &c. It is not made (sayth he) by any mans owne interpretatiō (that is to say) it is not made by humane sense: and therefore, this saying is set im­mediatly after. Prophecie hath not at any tyme been brought in, by mans wyll: but men inspired with the holy Ghost. &c.

I thinke your Fathers of the Councell of Trent, will allowe Lyranus for a Catholique wryter: wherefore, I thinke also that they wyll not dispense with you, for dissenting from him, in the interpreting of S. Peters wordes.

But nowe, if ye wyll giue me leaue, I wyll tell you what I thinke to be the meaning of S. Peter in these words. First I thinke, that you doo know, that S. Peter wrote in Greeke. And then you must knowe, that the wordes which in the allowed translation, are Priuata interpretatione: are in the Greeke, [...]. And they that haue any skyll in the Greeke tongue, will tell you that [...] dooth signifie Impulsus, as well [Page] as Interpretatio. And may we not translate the wordes of S. Peter thus? Omnis prophetica scriptura, non fit proprij impulsus. Euerie propheticall Scripture, is not made of, or by priuate, or proper impulsion. Or to tran­slate it more English lyke: No propheticall Scripture is made of, or by priuate or proper impulsion.

It séemeth to me, that bothe the wordes that goe be­fore, and also the wordes that followe, doo enforce this to be the meaning of Saint Peter. For he sayth thus. We haue a firme and sure propheticall spéeche: and you doo well in that you doo giue good héede thereto, as vnto a Candle that appeareth in a darke place, vntyl the day may waxe cleare, and the day starre may aryse in your heartes. But yet so, that you doo first knowe, that no propheticall Scripture, is made by priuate or proper impulsion. For prophesie hath not at any tyme bene brought vnto vs by the wyll of men, but the holy men of God haue spoken, as by the spirite of God, they haue bene driuen, or vehementlie mooued to speake.

Let your fréendes consider of this, and tell you whe­ther this may be allowed for Catholique or not. I do [...] not write this, as one that doo not thinke that saying of yours (No Scripture is to be taken after any priuate interpretation) to be true: or as one that dooth allowe the rashnesse of such as wyll rushe into the Scriptures, without such reuerance as is séemely, and take vppon them to make interpretations after their owne fanta­sies. I know that all that we can doo, and all the helpes that we can haue, are lyttle enough, and therefore I thinke it méete, for all men, to follow the rules that S. Austine prescribeth, writing, De Doctrina Christiana. And thus much may suffise to be sayde, to your thirde Reason, which by good Reason, and for iust cause (as I thinke) I haue called Foolishe.

The fowrth Reason.

YOur fowrth Reason is, for that by appealing to the Scripture, we seeme (as you say) to giue men lyber­tie to denie all vnwritten verities, which we haue re­ceyued of the Church, eyther by expresse definition, in generall Councell, or but by tradition. &c. And first, you delyght your selfe with a frumpe at Crowley and his fellowes, that wil laugh (as you say) so soone as they heare of vnwritten verities. And it séemeth that you perswade your selfe that you haue done it verie finely. And therfore I haue named this Reason of yours Fā ­tasticall.

But yet a little to temper our follie (you will not say our pride) you will aske vs how we prooue the Trinity of persons, and the vnitie of substaunce in the Godhead, by expresse Scriptures. &c.

Nine verities we must prooue by Scriptures, which are not (as you say) written in the Canonicall Scrip­tures. Well, to staie your wisdome, I wyll (by Gods mercifull assistance) doo what may be done in this mat­ter. And I hope to prooue as many of them, as be ne­cessary to be knowne to saluation: euen by plaine scrip­tures. And the rest. I hope I shall be able to prooue, in such sort as the Fathers haue prooued them, against such as haue at any tyme denied them. And first, I must prooue, that in the Godhead, there be thrée distinct per­sons, and but one substaunce. This and the second, that is, that in Christe there be two distinct Natures, and but one person: I thinke I shall easily prooue.

The Prophet Dauid, hath written thus. Psal. 110. The Lord hath sayde to my Lord,Psal. 110. syt thou at my right hande, tyll I make thine enimies thy foote stoole. The Lord shall send out of Sion, the Scepter of thy power, [Page] beare thou rule in the myddes amongst his enimies. Thus much in the two first verses. And in the fift verse he sayth thus. The Lord at thy right hand, hath woun­ded euen Kinges in the day of his wrath.

That the Prophet Dauid, dyd in these verses of this Psalme, speake of the diuine Maiestie, and of the second person Christ: it is manifested by that which S. Mathew writeth in his twenty and two Chapt. Vos quid dicitis de Christo? cuius filius est? What doo you say of Christe? whose sonne is he? &c.

The Lord. That is God the Father. Sayde to my Lord. That is to God the Sonne. &c. Héere haue we two distincted persons, the Father, and the Sonne. And in the seconde verse, he sayth: The Lorde shall send out of Sion, the Scepter of thy power, which is, the worde of the Gospell. And this Scepter was sent out of Sion by the holy Ghoste, in the feast of Pentecoste: when he rested vppon the Apostles, in the shape of [...]rie tongues deuided. So that héere we haue the thyrde person, and so consequently thrée distinct persons. The Father sayth to the sonne, sit thou at my right hand. &c. And the holy Ghost sendeth the word, which is the scep­ter of the power of the Sonne out of Sion. And in the fift verse he sayth. The Lorde at thy right hand, shall wounde euen Kinges in the day of his wrath. Thus speaketh the diuine Maiestie: God the Father, God the Sonne, God the holy Ghoste, one diuine Maiestie: to the Church of Christe hée re milytaunt vppon earth. So haue we the vnitie, of the thrée distinct persons in the deitie. And Christe him selfe, expounding the first verse of this Psalme to be spoken of him selfe, dooth a warrant vs, that he béeing Dauids sonne after the flesh, is neuerthelesse Dauids Lorde, and therefore God. And so bothe God and man, and yet but one Christe. For be sayth: What say you of Christe?Math. 22. Whose sonne is hée?

[Page] This might suffise to shewe, that these two verities are not vnwritten, as you do terme them. But to satis­fie you to the full: looke what S. Mathew hath written, in the last Chapter, & last words of his Gospell: repor­ting the wordes of our Sauiour, who sayth thus there. All power bothe in heauen and earth, is giuen vnto me. Goe your way therfore, and teach all Nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Sonne, and of the holy Ghost: teaching them to obserue all those thinges that I haue commaunded you. And behold, I am with you euerie day, euen to the ende of the world.

Héere the man Christe, receyueth from the diuine Maiestie, all power, bothe in heauen and in earth: and by that power he giueth commission to his Apostles to goe and teache all Nations, and to Baptize them in the name of the Father, of the Sonne, & of the holy Ghost. So that héere againe we haue thrée distinct personnes: and their vnitie, in giuing to Christe all power in hea­uen and in earth: and the two natures, in one person Christe, in that he receyueth all power in heauen and in earth, and giueth commission to his Apostles to teach and baptize.

If this will not satisfie you: I refer you to that which S. Austine hath written in his booke,Tom. 3. De Trinit. There shall you finde proofe vpon proofe, that these verities are not vnwritten.

The thirde veritie that you say is vnwritten, is that God the Father was neuer begotten. It séemeth that you haue not read S. Peaules Epistle to the Ephesians: for if you had, you must néedes haue séene, that this is no vnwritten veritie. Saint Paule writeth thus. Huius rei gratia flecto genua mea, ad patrem Domini nostri Ie­su Christi, ex quo omnis paternitas in coelo & in terra nominatur. Ephe. 3. For this cause (sayth S. Paule) doo I bowe my knées, to the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christe, of whome all Fatherhoode, bothe in heauen and in earth [Page] dooth take name. I trow you will not now say that this veritie is vnwritten.

The fowrth veritie, that you say is not written, is that the holy Ghost procéedeth bothe from the Father and the Sonne, as from one fountayne. If you would reade that which S. Iohn hath written: I thinke you would not say that this veritie is vnwritten.Iohn. 15. &. 20. Cum ve­nerit paracletus, quem ego mittam vobis a patre, spiritū veritatis, qui a patre procedit: ille testimonium perhibe­bit de me. &c. When the Comforter shall come, whome I wyll sende vnto you from the Father, euen the spirit of trueth, that procéedeth from the Father: he shall te­stifie of me. &c. And in the twentie Chapter he sayth. Haec cum dixisset, insufflauit, & dixit eis: Accipite spiri­tum sanctum. When he had spoken these wordes, he breathed vpon them, and he sayde vnto them: Receyue ye the holy Ghost. &c. If breath may be sayde, to pro­céede from the person that breatheth: then may we say, that it is written, that the holy Ghost procéedeth from Christe, the sonne of God, euen as it is written, that he procéedeth from God the Father.

I wyll be bolde therefore, without any more a doo, to conclude, that these fowre verities, are not vnwritten, but written in déede in the Canonicall Scriptures.

The fift vnwritten verity, is the descending of Christ into hell: this you must haue prooued by plaine wordes of Scripture, the lacke whereof (as you say) hath cau­sed many, nowe a dayes to deny it flatly. I am none of them that doo so deny it. But that he descended in such manner, as your Catholiques haue taught, and as it hath bene set foorth in their Stage Playes, and in their payntinges in glasse windowes, & else where, I thinke would be as harde a thing for you to prooue, any way, as for vs to prooue by plaine wordes of Scripture, that he dyd in déede descende into hell.

I thinke you wyll graunt that the spéeche vsed in the [Page] Créede, concerning Christes descending into hell, is figuratiue, vsed by the figure Synecdoche: wherein the whole is vnderstanded in the parte. For you wyll not (I thinke) say, that Christes body went into hell: For that was buried and rested in the graue, tyll the tyme that it was restored to lyfe againe. Well. Then it was his spirite, that descended into hell [...] and not his body and spirite bothe. This being graūted (as I think, you wyll not deny to doo) we shall easily prooue, euen by plaine wordes of the Scripture, that Christe descended into hell.

Saint Peter, in the thirde Chapter of his first Epistle,1. Pet. 3. sayth thus. Quia et Christus semel pro peccatis mor­tuus est, iustus pro iniustis: vt nos offeret Deo, mortifica­tus quidem carne, viuificatus autem spiritu. In quo & his qui in carcere erant spiritibus veniens, praedicauit. &c. For euen Christe (sayth Saint Peter) dyd once dye for sinnes, the iuste for the vniuste, that he might offer vs vnto God: mortified in the fleshe indéede, but quic­kened in the spirite, in which spirite, comming to those spirites that were in prison: he dyd preach vnto them. Nowe, I thinke you wyll say, that I haue prooued by plaine words of Scripture, that Christe descended into hell.

But howe great a matter were it, If this might not be prooued by any playne Scripture: séeing the Nicene Créede (vsed in your Masse) maketh no mencion of it.

And Damasus, that was Bishop of Rome. 360. yéeres alter Christes ascencion, when Iulianus the Apostata was Emperour, hath in his Créede no worde of it. And yet he concludeth his Creede with these wordes. Haec lege, Ieroni. Tom. 4. haec crede, haec retine, huic fidei animam tuam subiuga: & vitam consequeris & premium a Christo. That is: Reade these wordes, beléeue them, holde them faste, yoake thy soule to this Faith: and thou shalt [Page] obtayne of Christe, bothe life and reward.

I note this, because I sée that you shoote at this marke. To binde vs, eyther to prooue all your vn­written verities by Scripture: or else, for lacke of such proofe, to beleeue (as true) whatsoeuer your Ca­tholique Church shall allowe for trueth, although the same be neuer so vnnecessarie to be prooued, or receyued for trueth.

Your sixt vnwritten veritie, is the custome of Baptizinge Infauntes. For this, I néede not to wryte much.Mark. 10. Our Sauiour Christe hath sayde: Suf­fer little Chyldren to come to me, and forbidde them not: For to such dooth the kingdome of God belong. And Saint Paule sayth: That the Children of belée­uing Parents, are holy.1. Cor. 7. Therefore they are not to be holden from Baptisme: more then the Iewes children from Circumcision.

Your other thrée whyes are scarce worthy the aun­swering. Why should we kéepe the Sunday now at all▪ and not the Saturday? Why should we not abstaine now styll, like Iewes, from strangled meates, as the A­postles decreed? And why may not any Heretike, deny all the thrée Créedes. &c.

The first of these whyes, shall be aunswered with an other why.Mark. a. As why may not the Church of Chri­stians, being Lordes of the Sabaoth, chuse for their Sabaoth, one daye in seuen, euen that daye, the obseruing whereof, they shall sée to serue best for theyr owne edification? And why did the Apostles (as it maye be gathered, by that which Saint Iohn hath written in his Reuelation)Apoc. 1. chuse the first daye of the wéeke to be theyr Sabaoth, and not the laste? And why doo you not remember that Saint Paule dooth number the Sabaoth amongst such indifferent things, as are Meates and Drinckes,Collo. 2. Festiuall dayes, and [Page] new Moones: which were but shadowes of thinges to come? &c.

And to your second why, I say that the Apostles saw, that it was necessarie for the tyme, to forbydde those Christians, that then lately had bene Heathen men: to séede vpō strangled or blood. And néeded not to abrogate it afterwarde,Acts. 15. when they were further instructed, and knew how to vse the Christiā lybertie without offence. A man might meruayle, why any wise man, would mooue such a why as this.

Your thirde, & last why, may be fully aunswered with these wordes. Because there is no thing in those thrée Créedes: that may not easily be prooued by the Scrip­tures. And thus are all your whyes aunswered.

But, doo you not marke, howe these bedlem Catho­liques, would shake the foundation of our Christian fayth: by bynding vs to beléeue, that Christes Catho­lique Church hath set foorth (as infallibly true) and to be beléeued vnder paine of dampnation) three Créedes, the Articles whereof, they are not able to prooue by the Scriptures? doo not these blinde guides (thinke you) leade vs a trym daunce, towardes shameles error and ignorauuce? And thus much to your fowrth Rea­son, which for good cause I haue called, Fantasticall. Bothe, for that it séemeth that you perswade your [...]elwfe, that you handle your selfe verie finely, in all that you write therein: and also, for that you haue vttered no­thing therein, that may not well séeme to spring out of a fantasticall head.

The fift Reason.

YOur fift Reason, I haue called Fradulent, because you doo therein compare the lawes and Scriptures of God, to the lawes of men, made for ciuill pollicie [Page] and gouernment. And the Iudges & gouernors in ciuill pollicie, to the Ecclesiastical ministers, & gouernours of the Church of Christ, in matters of faith. This is frau­dulently, to bring y holy Scriptures (which of right are the toutchstone, for all mennes iudgements to be tryed by) to be vnder the iudgement of some one man, as your Pope▪ (who challengeth authoritie, aboue the generall Councels) or of that number of men that shalbe gathe­red together in a generall Coūcell (which doo challenge authoritie aboue the Pope.) But God that is Author of all perfection, and dooth dispose euery thing in a swéet and decent order: hath prouided much better for his Ca­tholique Church, héere millitaunt on earth, then that it should be driuen to séeke for resolution of doubts, at the bandes of such Iudges as may erre, as your Pope and generall Councels haue and may doo.

The Father of lyghts, the giuer of all good gyftes, in whome there is no chaunge or shewe of variablenesse. The Spirite of trueth, that can neyther deceyue, nor be deceyued: is ready at hand with euery one, that in hu­militie of minde craueth wisedome, and wyll not suffer any such, lōg to be in doubt of any thing, the knowledge whereof is necessarie to saluation. If you (sayth our sa­uiour) which be naught, doo know how to giue good gifts to your children. How much more shall your heauenly Father,Luk. 11. giue the holy spirit, to them that aske it of him? Gods chyldren may be bolde (in such cases as I haue spoken of) to craue Gods spirite, and assure themselues▪ to receyue it at his handes.1. Pet. 5. But the proude and hauty minded, shalbe as sure to finde God theyr enimie.

This Iudge is alwayes ready in the scriptures, to o­pen the vnderstādings of as many as doo resort thether (with humilitie of minde) séeking there to be resolued of theyr necessarie doubts.

That both your Popes, & generall Coūcels haue erred (& therfore may erre) I wil by Gods help plainly proue.

[Page] First, if it were possible to perswade you, that to make a decrée directly, contrarie to the expresse commaunde­ment of God, is an error: then it should be an easie mat­ter to cause you to confesse, that bothe a Pope, and a ge­nerall Councell haue erred.

For, the sixt generall Councell, holden at Constanti­nople, where .289. Bishops were gathered together: it was amongst other thinges decréede, that holy Images should be had in Churches, and that the same should be with great reuerence worshipped.Tom. 1. And this Councell was holden when the first Agatho was Pope, and this decrée was allowed by him.Disti. 16. And afterward by Adrian the first Pope of that name.

So that one generall Councell, and two Popes, haue erred in one decrée, made against, and directly contrary to Gods commaundement. Thou shall not make to thy s [...]l [...]e any grauen Image. &c.

Iohn ths.An. 956. Vorat. Plat. 12. of that name, behaued him selfe so well in his nine yéeres gouernment: that one Historian calleth him, Sceleratum virum. A man giuen ouer to all wic­kednesse. And an other calleth him. Monstrum hominis. A Monster amongst men. And at the last he was slaine, being taken in adulterie.

But peraduenture you wyll say: these faults procéede of humane infirmitie. But what wyll you then say to Syluester the seconde,Plat. Volat. that gaue him selfe to the Diuell, that he might obtaine ye Popedome, which he obtayned in déede, and dyd enioy it fowre yéeres.

Benedictus the ninthe, lyued so wickedly, governing the Church fiftéene yéeres: that one Historian sayth, he was,Volat. Vir plane probrosus & infamis, that is: A man altogether worthy of reproches, or euyll reportes, and infamous: And an other sayth: that after his death, hée was séene in an horrible shape,Plat. and that be sayde thus. Iusto Dei iudicio damnatus sum, quia fi­ne Lege vixi. I am dampned, euen by the iuste [Page] iudgement of GOD: because I lyued without lawe.

If all this wyll not suffise you, consider I pray you▪ the Councell of Basill: holden in the yere .1431. And Pope Eugenius, that in those dayes ruled the Church .16 yéeres. This Engenius dyd once allowe the decrées of that Coūcell: And afterward he did disallow the same. Whereby, it is manifest that he erred, either in the first or in the last. And if the Popes authorite be aboue the Councell: then that Councell dyd erre in deposing that Pope. And if the Councell be aboue the Pope: then did that Pope erre in excomunicating that Councell.

If you wyll take paines in reading the Histories; you shall finde amongst the Popes, the Saduces errour, the Arrians errour, the Pellagians errour mainteyned. Yea you shall finde, and we doo sée manifestly, that at this day, your whole Church dooth mainteyne the heresie of the Anthropomorphits. For you haue in all your Chur­ches, the Image of God the Father: resembling an olde man with gray haires, as though tyme had now made him olde, as it dooth all creatures.

But when your Church had thrée Popes at one time, Iohn the .23. Gregorie the .12. and Benedict the .13. To which of these would you haue sent vs, for resolution of our doubtes▪ Yea, and when your Church was two yéeres together, without eyther Pope or generall Coū ­cell: whether would you haue wished vs, to leaue the Iudgement in matters of Church cōtrouersies, at that tyme? I hope you wyll no longer wishe vs to leaue the Scripture that neuer did, nor shall fayle vs, and depend vpon such Iudges as these, that haue so often failed, and as yet, were neuer full agréed.

As for your comparison that you make betwixt the Churches and worldly kingdomes: it is not woorth a Walnut. And your similitude of a wyse Burgesse in Parliament: we weigh not. We knowe, and confesse, [Page] that mens lawes are not, neither can be made so plaine or perfect, but that it is necessary, that there be Iudges that may haue authoritie to discide those cōtrouersies yt may arise by occasiō of sinister construing of ye meaning of the words of the lawe, or by occasion of the darknesse of the same. But where finde you any such darknesse, or imperfection,Psal. 119. in the Scriptures of God? Dooth not Dauid say: Lucerna pedibus meis verbum tuum, & lumē semitis meis. Thy worde (sayth Dauid) is a Lanterne to my féete, and a lyght to my pathes.

Take héede that you be not one of them that Esay speaketh of.Esai. 5. That doe call lyght darknesse, and darknesse lyght. &c.

I doo graunt, that there may some question arise a­mongst men, about the vnderstāding of some places of Scripture: but this ryseth not of the darknesse that is in the scriptures, but of that darknesse that is in mans vnderstanding. Which till it be opened by the mercifull goodnesse of God:1. Cor. 2. cannot perceyue those thinges that doo belong to the spirite of God.

And we doo thinke it necessarie, that there be good, and learned men chosen, & put in authoritie in the Church, such as may (when néede is) call together ye most graue, wyse, and godlie learned persons, in the feare of God, to delyberate for the good gouernment of the Church, and to take order, that all thinges in the Church, may be done to the edification of the same, according to the rule of S. Paule. 1. Cor. 14. And if any proude or froward person, or a­ny simple or ignoraunt person, doo mooue any question: or his, or theyr misdemeanour, doo cause any questiō to be mooued, or any doubt to aryse, about the true mea­ning of any part of the Scripture: We thinke it méete, that in these cases, those places of Scripture be reue­rendly weighed, by those, wyse, learned, graue, & godlie men, so called together in the feare of God. And that the persons so in doubt, be by them certified, of the true [Page] meaning of those places. And that (if they will not yéeld to that interpretation that shall be made by those men, and prooued by due circumstances, & conference of those places with other, to be the verie meaning of the holie Ghost in those places) then we holde those men for He­retiques, and doo iudge them worthy to be excommuni­cated.

Thus (if you wyll) you may sée, that we are some thing wiser then your Burgesse in Parliament: and not so worthy to be laughed to scorne as he: Although we doo not make these men Iudges of the scripture: but we doo put them in trust to search the Scriptures, that both they and we may submit our selues, to that iudge­ment, which they, by theyr reuerende searching, shall finde in the Scriptures. As for the fortie places of Scripture that the Arrians brought, for the defence of theyr horrible Heresie: we are able enough (by the help of God) to set foorth plainly in theyr true meaning, and to withstand the Arrians (without the helpe of our Ca­tholique Church.) Notwithstanding the fortie places of Scripture, that they bring more then we can bring for the trueth.

And we say, as S. Austine sayth: that the Scriptures to mysse vnderstanded, and mysse applied, are the Here­tiques bowe, to shoote out theyr owne venemous ar­rowes. And as Vincentius sayth: They are the shéepes cloathing, which the Woolfe dooth shrowde her selfe in in &c.

Yea, and we confesse, that the Diuell him selfe, dyd alleadge scripture against our sauiour Christe, and dyd applie it as rightlie as Bonifacius the eight did, when af­ter he had one day shewed him self in his Pontificalibus, that is,Luke. 22. his Popely attyre, and the next day in the robes of an Emperour: he sayd thus. Ecce duo gladij hic. Be­holde, heere are two swordes.

Another of your Popes, setting his foote vppon the [Page] necke of Fredericus, the Emperour, sayd Super Aspidem & Basiliscum ambulabis, Psal. 91. Alexan. 3. An. 1174. & conculcabis Leonem & Dra­conem. Upon the Aspe and Basiliske, shalt thou walke, and vpon the Lyon and Dragon shalt thou treade. And surely, as often as these wresters of the Scriptures, doo speake vnto vs, the Diuell dooth (as Vincentius sayth) speake by theyr mouthes. &c.

But héere I leaue your Vincentius and you together, tyll at some more leysure. I may reade him ouer. I can not thinke that hée dooth handle that place of Mathewe, so grosely,Math. 4. as you would make vs beléeue that he dooth. But though he doo, the matter is not great. For there is none that hath any sence or féeling, in the vnderstan­ding of the Scriptures: but the same may easily sée, that when our sauiour Christe sayde. Non tentabis Dominū Deum tuum: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God: He had a farre other meaning, then that which you woulde make vs beléeue that Vincentius dooth gather of these wordes. Yea, Athens I dyd first write this aun­swer, I haue read ouer Vincentius, and haue founde that you doo belye him.

But as one mistrusting the authoritie of your Vin­centius: you clap in the necke of it, one sentence of S. Austine: but you tell vs not where we shall finde it. But if those wordes be Austines (as it may be that they are) they wyll, and doo serue much better against you and your sort: then they can against vs.

And thus much to your fift Reason: which I haue cal­led Fraudulent, for the cause afore mencioned.

¶The [...]ixt Reason.

YOur sixt and last Reason, most weyghtie of all, is this: Because, if we wyll refuse the authoritie, of the Churches absolute iudgement vppon the scriptures [Page] true sence: We shall séeme plainely to deny the holy Ghost to be the spirite of trueth. &c. This Reason I haue called Fanaticall. For that in making so great an accoumpt of this Reason: you séeme not to be in your right wittes. What bedlem would abuse the wordes written in the fowretéene of Iohn as you doo: to prooue, that because our Sauiour Christe dyd praye for, and ob­tayne, and dyd giue the holy Ghost, the spirite of trueth, to his holy Apostles, and dyd promise that the same should remayne with them for euer, and instruct them in all trueth: therfore the same holy Ghost must néedes be, and remayne styll in that Church, which agréeeth with the Church of the Apostles onely in name, and is no more lyke the Apostles Church in doctrine and man­ners, then blacke is lyke to whyte, and God is lyke the Diuell.

The Wise man sayth,Sap. 4. that Wisedome wyll not en­ter into a malicious soule: neyther wyll she dwell in a body that is subiect to sinnes. For the holy spirite of Wisedome, flyeth from deceite. &c. And shall we thinke that the holy Spirite of trueth hath bene, and wyll be styll amongst such a rabble of Popes, Cardinalles, and other Catholiques, as your owne Histories make mencion of, that haue (besides theyr beastly lyfe) made decrées directlie, contrarie to Gods commaundements? Yea, shall we thinke that the Spirite of Christe, dwel­leth amongst those Catholiques, that at this day doo in the twentie and fiue Session of the Councell of Trent, pronounce all such accurssed,Tom. 4. as doo shewe them selues, eyther by doctrine or otherwise, to mislyke with the hauing of Images in Churches: seeing the same is dy­rectly contrarie to the second commaundement of God? Shall we thinke that the holy spirite of God, dyd guide those your Catholique Fathers, when they dyd in the same Session, blanche the counterfeyting of Gods Ma­iestie by an Image?

[Page] And thinke you that Esay the Prophet, if he were now lyuing,Esai. 59. would allowe your applying of his wordes to such Catholiques, and to theyr doinges: séeing the same Prophete dooth so earnestly speake against the making of Images,Esai. 44. scorning bothe them and theyr makers, and plainly affyrming that they be good for nothing.

The Scribes, the Pharisies, the high Priestes, and Doctors of the lawe: might as well haue mainteyned, theyr corrupt Doctrine and Traditions against Christ and his Apostles (euen by those words of Esay, that you applie for your purpose) as you may now by the same, mayntaine all the corrupt Doctrines and Traditions of your Catholiques. For they dyd then perswade them selues (as you doo now) that the promise was made to them, & could not but be perfourmed to them. And that therfore Christe and his fauters, were Scismatiks and méete to be excommunicated, as by them they were, in déede, and as by you, we be now.

But to our great and vnspeakable comfort: our saui­our Christe hath foretolde vs of this, saying. These wordes haue I spoken vnto you, that you should not be offended.Iohn. 16. They wyll excommunicate you, and the time will come, wherin whosoeuer shall hyll you, will think that he dooth God good seruice.

And that promise also, that you would s [...]me to reioyce so much in [...]ia in déede as cōfortable to vs, as you would haue men thinke that it is to you.

We knowe that the Spirite of trueth departeth not from Christe in his members the Church, the true and vnfeyned Catholique Church. Neyther doo the wordes that the heauenly Father put into the mouth of Christ, his onely begotten Sonne, depart out of his mouth, the true Catholique Church: and yet dare not we make that Church▪ Iudge of that worde. For they were not put into her mouth to that ende, that shée should iudge them: but that shée should in all her doinges, be iudged [Page] tryed, and directed by them.

As sottishe as you say, our opinion is: we are so farre from holding, that euerie priuate man, may haue leaue to be his owne Iudge in vnderstanding the Scripture: that we doo not graunt it to the best learned, but doo leaue it to him, that béeing (with humilitie of minde) sought in the Scriptures, wyll be found there, yea, euen by Crafts men, such as was Peter, and his fellow fisher men. For he respecteth not mens persons, nor Occupa­tions. And vnto them that so séeke him there (whether they be many or fewe) he wyll open the sence of vnder­stading, that they may vnderstand, as much as he kno­weth to be méete for them to vnderstand. And such as haue that humble spirit, wyll not search for, nor shewe them selues destrous to knowe, any more.

Well, now you conclude, vpon that which you say we must néedes graunt, that is, that the Church is our mo­ther, as Scripture sayth. Well, I am glad that you are now become a Scripture man. But I pray you, where is that Scripture written, that sayth, that your Catho­lique Church is our mother? It wyll be harde for you to finde it.

I wryte not this, as one that would deny the Church that is the Spowse of Christe, to be the mother of Chri­stians, in that sence that she is the Spowse of Christe: But I write thus, to let you sée, that I lyke not with your manner of concluding vpon this, being once graū ­ted. That this mother of ours, that must néedes teach all her chyldren, fyrst to beléeue in God (for that faith commeth by hearing) and also to know the Scriptures, and is the pyller and sure stay of trueth: must néedes be the absolute Iudge, and imperiall Schoolemistresse, to teach vs all, how to beléeue in God, and to vnderstande the Scriptures.

This geare hangeth together lyke Iermans lyps (as the prouerbe is:) If you had sayde thus.

[Page] The Church (being the spowse of Christe) is our mo­ther, and hath receyued commission, from her husband, and our father Christ, to teach vs all those things that he hath taught and commaūded her to doo, & to teach vs his children to doo: wherfore, if we shall not hearken to her, as to our chéefe Schoole mistresse, vnder her husbād and our father, so long as she teacheth nothing, but that which our father hath commaunded her to teach vs: we shall dispise him, because we despise her, as it is writ­ten. Qui vos spernit, Luke. 10. me spernit: He that despiseth you, despiseth me.

If you had written thus: a man might haue made some sence of your wordes. But as you haue written, you séeme to make the gray Mare the better Horse. And to spoyle our Father Christe of all his power: that our Mother, his Wife, may not be found with out abso­lute power.

I sée not therfore, why I may not for this blindnesse of your heartes, say as iustly to you, as S. Paule dooth to the Galathians. O insensati. &c. Oh you foolish fellowes, who hath bewitched you, not to obey vnto the trueth? which euen of Infants and sucking Babes (as it were) is discerned, as cléere as the Sunne. So that you must not disdayne, though Maister Trippe, doo tryppe you in your owne turne, as a séely seducer, to maintaine (as you doo all) so grosse an opinion, béeing the forrest in déede, for all such Foxes to litter theyr whelpes in. And héere you séeme to haue had one fling at Maister Foxe also: because you vnderstoode that he is one allowed in the Kéepers warrant, to haue conference with you.

I meruayle, howe Maister Turnebull escaped your frumpping pen. But to conclude this assercion. Acquite your selfe as well as you can, why you should not all be suspected to be Antichristians, for as much as you doo so stowtly mayntayne that man of sinne, that setteth [Page] vp himselfe aboue all that is called God, and sitteth in the Temple of God, and boasteth himselfe, as though he were God. Whome the Lord shall destroy, euen with the breath of his mouthe. And that worde, that you woulde haue to be iudged by your Antichristian Churche: shall iudge bothe Antichriste and his Church. And that holy Ghost that came downe from Heauen, vpon our Christes Apostles, hath remayned, and dooth still remaine, and to the ende of the world shall re­maine with his Catholique Church. That is, with that Church, which beléeueth, holdeth, and protesteth, that Catholique Faith, that Iesus Christe, commaun­ded his Apostles, to teach Catholiquely, to all Nations and sortes of peoples, in all parts of the world. Promi­sing that the holy Ghost should alwayes remaine with the faithfull, to direct them in all trueth, and godlinesse of lyuing.

Thus, hauing first considered, the wordes of our Sauiour, in sending vs to the Scriptures, saying: Searche the Scriptures. &c. I haue founde that the conclusion that you make vppon the manner of speach, that our Sauiour vseth in that place of Saint Iohn his Gospell, is not. Secundum vnanimen consensum Pa­trum: (that is) According to the agréeable consent of the Fathers: and therefore condempned by your Fathers, in the Councell of Trent, in the fowrth Session.

Saint Austine, dooth accoumpt acurssed, whatso­euer is taught, other then out of the Scriptures, of the Lawe and the Gospell. Lib. 3. Chap. 6. Against the Let­ters of Petilian. And in his booke of Christian doctrine, and the .37. Chap. He saith: that without the authoritie of Scripture: our Faith dooth but stacker or stumble. And againe, in his .166. Epistle, he sayth: That bothe Christe and his Church, are learned to be knowne in the Scriptures.

[Page] Basill sayth,In Asce­ticis. that whatsoeuer is taught without the holy Scripture, is sinne.

Chrysostome, in his second exposition vppon Mathew, sayth: that the true Church cānot other wise be known then by the holy Scriptures. Homilia. 49.

Yea, Saint Austine, in his first booke that he wrote, a­gainst the Epistle of Parmenianus, and the second Chap: dooth accoumpt it to be rashnesse, to giue credite, to a­ny, that dooth not prooue by Scripture, that which he affyrmeth.

I dare not therefore, giue credite to that which you haue written, tyll you prooue it by Scripture.

As for your sixe Reasons that you stay vpon, I haue conceyued, and doo vnderstand what they be. And as in the beginning of your Pamphlet, you desire: so haue I taken Pen in hande, and haue done what I can to confute them. And as I thinke, haue doone it suffici­ently. If you can replie, doo you take pen in hande againe, and doo what you are able. I wyll not refuse to trie the trueth of these matters, with you, or with the best on your side.

Haec est fides mea: quia vera, Christiana, Catholica, & Apostolica.

This is my Faith: because it is the true, Catholique, and Apostolique Faith.

Robertus Crowleus.
Subscripsit Henricus Trippe, Hijs quae à Domino R. C. responsa sunt.

¶A breefe Aunswer to Maister Pownds six Reasons▪ Written by Maister Henrie Trippe.

MAister Pownd: hauing perused the aunswer of Maister Crowly to your sixe Reasons, and finding them sufficiently aunswered, by that godly Father, (whome you thinke not to be worthy naming, as you write to me:) I thought good rather to subscribe to his aunswer, then to frame an other: How be it, to take from you the aduauntage of glorying, which I thinke you will easily take against me, as not being able to answere you: I wil breefly vrge you in some pointes, wherein I sée he hath spared you.

And first I must néedes shew you, that all your Reasons are set one a tottering foundation: because ye Iudge her selfe is not cleared of suspition, for you take it as a thing graūted, that the Churche of Rome is the spowse of Christ, which thing is in cō ­trouersie, betwene vs. It had bene therfore an orderly pro­céeding, to haue dealt first with that matter, and to haue put it out of doubt, that your Reasons in appealing to her iudge­ment, might haue bene the stronger▪ Pighius one of your owne men confesseth, that the question of the Church ought first to be discidid. Thus you builde vpon a false principle, and ouer­throwe the force of your owne Reasons, if happily they had any force.

Secondly, that which you bring out of ye fift of S. Iohns Gos­pell, to prooue the scripture to be but witnes bearer to ye truth and not the Iudge, though it haue some shew of reason, yet being well wayed, it well vanishe: for you imagine, because you finde the worde witnesse, which is, Verbum forence: That by & by you must haue a pitched Court, & a iudgement seate, where shall be presented many persons, in seuerall places, one to be witnesse, an other to be Iudge, and perhaps some to be iustifi­ed, and some to be condempned. But if you had wayed other places of scripture, you shoulde haue séene that the holy Ghoste admitteth no such straight collctions: but framing his writing to our capacitie: Useth some time one phrase, and sometime an other. And you might haue found where the worde is called a Iudge, as in the twelfth Chapter of the same Euangelist [Page] If any man heare my wordes, and beleeue them not, I iudge him not. &c. He that refuseth me, and receyueth not my words hath one that iudgeth him. The word that I haue spoken, shall iudge him in the last day. For I haue not spoken of my selfe. &c. Now iudge you how soundly you haue gathered: it is witnesse therefore not Iudge, or not rather bothe a witnesse & a Iudge. So might you reason of the diuerse Metaphors giuen to the word, which is called, Bread, Wine, Oile, Milke, Hony, Wa­ter, Raine, Light, Fyre, Golde, Siluer, Pearle, and Iron rod, Scepter. Sword, & the breath of the Lords mouth. Now were it not a fonde Reason to gather, because it is the breath of the Lordes mouth: therfore it is no Sword, because it is a sword or Iron rod: therfore it is not Gold. &c. Or because it is Gold, therfore it is no bread, when as the holy Ghost hath set downe those sundrie Metaphors, to expresse the power, dignitie, and commoditie of the worde. But this is none of your six Rea­sons and therfore the weight of your cause lyeth not vpon it: yet in pronouncing your Treatise before witnesse, you gaue it a greate force.

¶Now to your Reasons.

YOur first Reason is groūded vpon a false principle: for you imagine our church to be without a Ministerie, to teach and open the Scriptures, which is not so, yea rather your Préestes are mute, and not onely that, but ye close vp the booke of God, & will not let it be read, to make the Scriptures wholy mute, least they might bewray your corruptions. But God be thanked, God hath opened the mouthes of many by the Scrip­tures, to witnes agaynst your errors, and so iudge you by the same wordes, if you amend not.

Your second Reason pretendeth that the Scripture is verie full of hard & déepe mysteries: surely I confesse that the Scrip­ture hath his harde Misteries and hard places, but hath it not also his easie familyar doctrines? Is there not meate for all Estates, Milke for babes, and strong meate for good stomacks. [Page] But I dare be bolde to auouch, that it was Sathans policie, to robbe the people of the whole vse of the Scriptures, vnder pretence of ambiguitie, as though the whole Scriptures were nothing else, but Rydles. As for the tryall of harde places, the learned haue set downe two excellent rules, which I meruaile you can reiect: the one is conference of Scripture with Scrip­ture, the other is begging of wisedome of God, who giueth it to the Babes & lyttle ones, and hydeth it from the wise in their owne conceyte, who stumble at playne places, not being dyrec­ted by Gods spirite. But howsoeuer they labour to trie the spirites, or whatsoeuer knowledge they doo attaine, they leaue the suueraigntie of the iudgement to the word.

Your thyrde Reason, grounded on Saint Peters testimony▪ 2. Peter. 1. Erreth, in not considering what the Apostle mea­neth, by priuate or not priuate, you séeme to place it in the multytude of personnes, that giue the interpretation: but the Apostle placeth it in the authoritie of the Author of the word. Therefore, one Prophete speaking in the Lordes name, be­ing truely sent from the Lorde, is more to be beléeued, then the whole packe of Préestes, resisting of mallice, or ignorance, and they being many, are priuate, and one Prophete, being but one, is not priuate.

Secondly, you pretende that euerie man may interprete the Scriptures as he lysteth, which is a false charge. But we desyre them, and allowe them to reade the Scriptures, and to sée whether those thinges which we teache them, be so or no, according to the example of the faithfull. Acts. 17. And as they are commaunded by Christe, and the Apostle. 1. Iohn. 4.

In your fowrth Reason, whyle you went about to temper our pride, as you say, it séemeth you distēpered your own wits, in putting downe, so many things in ye name of vnwritten ve­rities, which notwithstāding are written: you aske of the mat­ter when I suppose ye meane ye termes, brought in by the Fa­thers to expresse the doctrine more plainlie. As the word Tri­nity, person, and other, to make plaine the doctrine against the [Page] Arrians. Héere you were foully ouerséen. And you would make as beléeue, that the Church hath authoritie to poynt vs new [...] Articles of faith, without warrant of scripture: she was wont to challenge some liberty in Ceremonies, & indifferent things, but you giue her power in Articles of faith.

Your fift Reason stumbleth on the false principle, whereon you grounded your first Reason, where you iudge no gouern­ment to be in our Church, because we giue the highest rule to the worde, & gouerne thereby, as by a most perfect lawe: after which no newe Parliament néede to be called, to adde or dimi­nishe from it, but all men of all estates ought to put to theyr hands to sée it executed and kept: for the which cause (if they at any tyme assemble) the worde written is theyr direction.

Against your sixt Reason, I auouch that he that appealeth to the iudgement of the written worde, dooth yéelde a most waighty Reason, to ratifie the sending of the holy Ghost to his Church, and that it is the spirite of trueth. For [...] the Apostles were so mightely endewed with the spirite, that they bothe taught, and left in writing, the whole Coūcels of God, enough to make the man of God perfect. &c: Then the Church that challengeth the promise of that spirite, wherewith they were endewed, must subscribe to that trueth which they haue lefte written: for whatsoeuer is not agreeabl [...] thereto, commeth from an other spirit, opposing it selfe against the spirit of God, which is neuer contrarie to it selfe.

Thus I haue bréeflie layde down [...] which I could haue done more at large: but Ma [...]ster Crowley hath giuen you matter enough, and yet more then eyther he or I can wryte, is set downe by Chemnicius and others, whose Treatises you might doo well, eyther to reade for your learning, or to impugne if you be able.

¶Your well wyller. H. T.

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