Seuen dayes conference betweene a catholicke christian, and a catholicke Romane. Concerning some controuersies of religion. By William Cowper, B. of Galloway.

Seuen dayes conference betweene a catholicke christian, and a catholicke Romane. Concerning some controuersies of religion. By William Cowper, B. of Galloway.

Table of contents

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Title page

TO THE MOST SACRED, CHRISTIAN TRVELY CATHOLICKE, And mightie Prince IAMES, King of Great Britaine, France and Ireland, defender of the Faith, &c.

The Contents of the seuen Dayes Conference.

SEVEN DAYES CONFERENCE. BETWEENE A Catholicke CHRISTIAN, and a Catholicke ROMANE.

THE FIRST DAYES CONFERENCE. Concerning Antiquitie in General.

THE SECOND DAYES CONFERENCE. Concerning the Antiquitie of the Church of SCOTLAND, and how the Church of ROME in her best estate was but a sister, & not a mother Church vnto it.

THE THIRD DAYES CONFERENCE. Concerning the Apostacie of the Church of ROME, and how shee is now become that mother of Whoredomes. REVEL.

THE FOVRTH DAYES CONFERENCE. Wherein is declared that ROME is the seate of Antichrist.

THE FIFTH DAYES CONFERENCE. Wherein the common question of the Aduersaries is aunswered: Where was your Church before LVTHER?

THE SIXTH DAYES CONFERENCE. Wherein an other Question commonly obiected by the Aduersaries is answered: Seeing you cannot denie that your fathers were Papists, what thinke you, are they all damned or not? And if they be not damned, why may not we be of their Religion.

THE SEVENTH, OR SABBOTH DAYES CONFERENCE. Wherein the order obserued in the Church of SCOTLAND, is declared to be conforme to the ancient order prescribed by the Apostles, and practised in the Primitiue Church.

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SEVEN DAYES CONFERENCE, BETWEENE A CATHOLICKE CHRISTIAN, AND A CATHOLICKE ROMANE. Concerning some Controuersies of RELIGION.

By William Cowper, B. of Galloway.

AVG. DE CIVIT. DEI LIB 20. CAP. 19. ‘Qui non credunt veritati, Iudicati seducentur, & seducti iudicabuntur.’

LONDON Printed by W. S. for Iohn Budge, and are to be sold at his Shop at the South doore of Paules, and Britaines Bursse. 1613.

TO THE MOST SACRED, CHRISTIAN TRVELY CATHOLICKE, And mightie Prince IAMES, King of Great Britaine, France and Ireland, defender of the Faith, &c.

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SIR, Hauing procreate, not without some paine and labour, this little Treatise, when I b [...]gan to view it, I perceiued by the sirst face & countenance thereof, that of it felfe [Page] willingly it made retreate to your Highnesse for protection, being in effect no other thing in regard of the matter, but a surcle of that stocke, or birth of that Booke, whereof your Highnes is the Parent, although the maner of handling it be so base and vnpolished, as that it bewrayes it selfe altogether vnlike any thing proceeding from your Highnesse. Yea, also farre inferiou [...] vnto it (to vse the words of Cl [...]mens, Strom. 5. Alexandrinus, which he borrowes from Plato, comparing the giftes of Kings with other mens) as Brasse or Iron is inferiour to Golde or siluer. For there your Maiestie hath [...]reated the present controuersies of Religion, with such Learning, as in a Prince [Page] may be admired, seasoned with such loue and mildnesse of Spirit, as might mooue them, who are contrarie minded, if they were not drunken with the Cup of the Whoore of B [...]b [...]l, and so had lost iudgement, and vnderstāding, to acknowledge that it is no turbulent humor, but the power of trueth, no desire of cont [...]ntion, but the loue of all mens saluation, hath carried your Maiestie vnto it.

So hath it pleased God to be fauourable to this Ile, and by your Maiestie to blesse vs, that there ne [...]des not now a Iusti [...]e, nor a Ter [...]ulli [...]n to write Apologies of our Christian faith to any Antoninus or any other such like, Impie pio Impera [...]ori; wee haue a most Christian King, a [Page] p [...]ofessour of the Gospell with [...] vs, a protector of vs with it, a Semi-martyr, an Abimelech, A Father King, an other Salomon, a Coheleth, such a king as is a Preacher of that truth, whereof his Highnesse is professor, whose Palaces and Tables are (as was said of the Courts of Theodosius iunior) Schooles of Diuinitie, wherein ignorants are instructed, Apostates conuerted, good Christians daily confirmed, and as if this were yet too little, an open cōfessor before the world, a publicke patrone of the truth by Apologies learnedly penned, whereby his Highnesse reacheth to these, to whome by speech hee can not attaine, and so makes the light of the Gospell shine to other Princes of [Page] the World, who as yet mislike it, onely because they misknow it.

Neither can it be told, whether your Highnesse indeuour to propagate the truth of Christian Religion among such as haue it not, or to conserue it where it is already embraced, be greater, the care of all the Reformed Churches in Europe, after a sorte lying vpon your Highnesse. By your Authoritie they are protected, by your Learning instructed, by your Pieti [...] cōfirmed, by your Highnesse wise, godly and peaceable Councell vnited, where the sire of vnneces [...]ary contentiō is subtilly kindled by Sathan, for disturbance of the Church, and disgrace of the Gospel. By your [Page] Highnesse prouidence, happily, sp [...]edely and wisely it is quenched, the benefit whereof, the Churches both of Fraunce and and Flanders lately haue found, and thankes God and your Maiestie for it.

And if yet any further proofe of your Highnesse most intire affection toward Christ, and his c [...]use bee required of any man: May hee not see your Maiestie willingly bearing Babels indignation for Ierusalems sake? Are not their raylings, threatnings, contradictions, treasonable imaginations patiently suffered for Christes sake? Is their not a sensible losse sustained for the Gospels sake? Is not alliance with Labans house, for Religions cause preferred to [Page] the friendship of the most puissant Princes of Canaan? But yet what speake I of losse, since losse for Christs sake can not bee, not indeede, what seemes a losse, sha [...]l bee found a vantage, for Where the wayes of man please the Lord, Gen. 14.13. Gen. 21.22. he shall make his enemies his friends, euen Mamre, Eschol, and Aner, Abimelech, and his Captaine Phicol (Princes of Canaan) shall sue to Abraham for friendship, and seeke to bee in couenant with him, becaus [...] they see that God is with him in all that he does. And if yet Ieroboam with his complices will be enemies to Dauids Kingdome, then hath your Maiesty in readinesse the answere of Ab [...]ah vnto them,2. Chron. 13 With you indeede is the multitude, but with it yee haue the golden[Page]Calues, which you haue made for your gods, and shall be your destruction, but wee belong to the Lord our God, and behold this God is with vs as a Captaine, and his seruants with sounding Trumpets to crie an Alarum against you. For God from aboue hath indued your Highnesse with his heauenly wisedome, which [...]ath this annexed promise,Pr [...]u. 4.8. Exalt her, and shee shall exalt thee, shee shall bring thee to honour if thou embrace her, The Lord shall be thine assurance, and hee shall preserue thy soote from falling.

And with this great benefit of pure Religion, we enioy vnder your Highnesse most happie Gouernment, there is conioyned such a peace, as no age [Page] heretofore hath affoorded, no care of any Prince could effectuate, for now by your Highnesse authoritie, the most Rebellious people are made peaceable, and the Scepter of Christ is reuerenced there, where all sorts of violence, rapine, murther, villanie did raigne before, so that now to your Maiestie most iustly belongs that p [...]ise, which of olde was giuen to Constantine, and written in his triumphall Chariot, Liberator vrbis & sundator quietis. Nazi [...]n. ad [...] [...]pi [...] 8 Or which Nazianzen gaue to Olympius. O negotiorum arbiter, & publicarum rerum corrector & vtrun (que) ti [...]i diuinitus concessum qui etiam hoc pietatis praemium acce [...]is [...]i, vtres tibi ex animi sententia fluant, so [...]us (que) ea assequi possis quae omnibus alijs negata[Page]sunt. Prudentiae enim & sortitudinis ductu imperium administras, quarum altera, quae facienda su [...]t excogitat, altera quod excogitatum est, facile exequitur, huc quod maximum est accedit manus puritas & integritas qua omnia reguntur. An arbiter and decider of difficult controuersies, a corrector of the publicke State, and both of these [...]re committed to your Highnesse of God, from whome your Maiestie hath receiued also this reward of piety, that matters succeed vnto your Highnesse according to your hearts desire, and your Highnesse onely hath attained to do that which is denied vnto others. And which yet is most of all, hereunto is ioyned the puritie and integritie of your [Page] hands, whereby all things are ruled. Your Highnesse hath not liued like an Achab [...] to spoile any Naboth of his Vineyard, nor like a Manasseh to defile the streetes of your Cities with innocent blood. Nor like an Herod, to take the Wife of an other. Your Maiestie might shake the lappe with Nehemiah against oppressours, in signe and token of innocencie. Your Highnesse might cast the first stone at adulterers, & in a good conscience could make purgation with Samuel, if so it were that your Highnesse came to bee iudged of man, Whose Oxe or Asse haue I taken, or to whome haue I done wrong, If th [...]re be any fault (for the best want not their own blemishes) it is vpon that extremity, [Page] which is neerest to vertue: Namely, in too great mercie and clemencie, which of old was noted for an infirmitie in good Theodosius, Quod ex mansuetudine in nimiam lenitatem declinauerït, yet euen of this will I say with Nazian. Etiam haec est dei humanitas & Clementia. This also is a resemblance of the clemencie of God, whose deputie on earth your Highnes are, for hee is gracious, slow to wrath, long suffering and ready to forgiue. Many a time he bends his bowe to shoote at the wicked, the arrowes of his anger, but is [...],Pisidae [...] slowe and loath to let them go: Yea, oftimes hee shoots & purposely misseth his marke, sparing yet for a time: [Page] [...], his warnings are many, but where they worke not, hee strikes at length, and no more but once. [...]: Thus euē the Lord whose mercie is marueilous, meanes him to iudgement▪ where mercie is abused: It is no pietie but superstition to spare, when time is to strike. And it is a cruell clemencie, which is declared vpon one with the destruction of manie. The Pillars which vphold a Kingdome, are Mercie and Iustice, since by them Kinges are conserued, Your Highnesse out of your rare wisedome, will haue a care to conserue them both, that neither Mercie make preiudice to Iustice, nor Iustice againe take away the praise of Mercie.

[Page]But to returne, as S [...]desprima & vita ima, are most vnseemely; so is the dignity doubled, where the preferment is beautified with pietie: and herein also hath the Lord magnified his mercie toward your Maiesty, that as by an high calling he hath exalted your Highnesse a Head & Ruler ouer this Mightie people, so hath hee made your Highnesse no lesse eminent by communication of his grace, then your Maiestie is by the Honor of the place, liuing in the eyes of all men a patterne of Vertue, yea an image of the heauenly King, walking so among the euill that you are not infected with their vice, and so with the good that the best are made better by your example. God make vs [Page] wise to know what wee haue, for because the Lord hath loued his people, therefore hath hee set such a King ouer them, to rule them with equitie and righteousnesse. The Lord make vs thankefull for it, and long may your Highnes liue & raign a happy king of many blessings to your people, Amen.

Your Maiesties most humble Subiect, and dayly Orator, WILLIAM COVVPER B. of Galloway.

The Contents of the seuen Dayes Conference.

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The I. dayes Conference.

Concerning Antiquity in Gen [...]rall.

The II. Day.

Concerning the Antiquity of the Church of Scotland, and how the Church of Rome in her best estate was but a sister, and not a mother Church vnto it.

The III. Day.

Concerning the Apostacie of the Church of Rome, and how sh [...]e is now become that mother of W [...]redomes, Reuel.

The IIII. Day.

Wherein is declared that Rome is the seate of Antichrist.

The V. Day.

Wherein the common quest [...]on of the Aduersaries is answ [...]red: Where was your Church before Luther?

The VI. Day.

Wherein an other Question commonly obiected by the Aduers [...]r [...]es is answered: Seeing you cannot denie tha [...] your fathers were Papists, what thinke you, are they all damned or not? And if they be not damned, why may not we be of their Religion.

The VII. Day.

Wherein the order obserued in the Church of Scotland is declared to be conform to the ancient order prescribed by the Apostles, & and p [...]ctised in the Primitiue Church.

SEVEN DAYES CONFERENCE. BETWEENE A Catholicke CHRISTIAN, and a Catholicke ROMANE.

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C.

SIR, you are w [...]lcome home from Italie.

R.

I thanke you heartielie good Countriman.

C.

Tell mee I pray you how it goes with you, are you sound both in bodie and in minde?

[Page]R.

Why, what meane you by that?

C.

Because many trauelled in these partes where you haue beene hauing returned worse then they went a field.

R.

Wherein worse?

C.

With the botch of Aegypt in their bodie, the iust plague of God for corporall whoredome; and the leprosie of Babel in their soules, wherewith God also punisheth thē who loue not Sions beautie, and delight not in the light of the Gospell.

R.

But I was neither in Aegypt nor in Babel.

C.

How so, was you not in Rome, and other parts vnder the Popes Dominions?

R.

Yea that I was.

C.

Then was you both in Aegypt and Babel.

[Page]B.

I vnderstand not your mysticall Theologie.

C.

Neither can yee so long as you are in the mist, and haue your mind couered with a vaile.

R.

You speake your pleasure there, for I see all is well as your selfe.

C.

I would you did, for so you might easily see that Rome is Spirituall Aegypt, wherin the light of God is obscured: and Babel, wherein is a fearefull captiuitie of Gods people, and such a horrible confusion of languages, that when the Builder speaks, the people vnderstands not what he sayes: yea it is Sodom, which for her vile abhominations will shortly bee burnt with fire, and brought to vtte [...] desolation neuer to bee repaired againe.

[Page]R.

Let mee alone, I see you are stil in your old humour, and it maruels me much, that so many in this Land being conuerted to the bosome of the mother Church of Rome, you should still continue in this new Hereticall opinion.

C.

O now I see the bile of Babel vpon you: you will call her a mother Church whom God cals a mother of Whoredomes, and you charge vs with noueltie, and heresie; but wee will proue by Gods grace, what you call heresie, and noueltie is veritie and antiquitie.

R.

Antiquitie say you, fie, speake neuer of it: for your eldest Doctours are Luther, and Caluin.

C.

Nay by your leaue (Sir) [Page] wee haue neither our faith from Luther, nor from Caluin: but answere you as the Apostle Saint Paul answered his aduersaries, when they charged him with the like crimes that you charge vs with, and I pray you marke his Apologie:Act. 24.14. I confesse that after the way which they call Heresie, so worship I the Lord God of my Fathers.

R.

What euer Saint Paul speakes, I would not haue you speaking of Fathers, seeing you haue forsaken the Religion of your Fathers.

C.

You deceiue your selfe if you thinke wee wil not stand to the Religion of our Fathers.

R.

Ah, but your Fathers were Papists.

C.

Nay but our Fathers were Protestants.

[Page]R.

Now in good faith you moue me to laughter.

C.

You may laugh as you list, but haue no cause.

R.

VVas not your Father, and Grandfather, and their Fathers before them for many ages Papists?

C.

What of that? they who in regard of time and truth were long before them, and should be followed as Fathers to vs and them both, were Protestants.

R.

That is but a shift of your owne.

C.

It is no shift, it is a truth; and you shall see it your selfe if you will consider who were Pauls Fathers, whom he saies he followed in the worshipping of God.

R.

What were the names of [Page] his Fathers were I cannot tell, but I see they haue been Israelites of the Tribe of Beniamin.

C.

We haue not that to stand vpon, what they were for their persons, or names either, but what was their Religion: remember you not that hee sayes himselfe, he was brought vp at the feet of Gamali [...]l?

R.

Yea I doe.

C.

Tell mee now of what Religion was Gamali [...]l?

R.

I see he hath been a Pharesie.

C.

And think you that Saint Paul when hee made his Apologie, worshipped God after the manner of Pharesies?

R.

I thinke it not.

C.

How then sayes hee, that he worshipped God after the [Page] maner of his Fathers, seeing his Fathers were Pharesies?

R.

I thinke he meanes not of these fathers, who liued last before him, but transcending them he passes vp to his elder fathers Abraham, Isaack, Iacob.

C.

Was hee not then wrongfully accused of noueltie, as one who had forsaken the religion of his fathers, because hee forsooke the Religion of such Fathers as liued last before him?

R.

I thinke so indeede: His Apologie cleares him sufficiently both of heresie and noueltie, which his aduersaries would haue imputed to him.

C.

Now (Sir) I haue you where I would: why should not the like Apologie cleare vs in the like case: for albeit we haue [Page] foresaken the heresies of Papistrie maintained by them, that liued last before vs, yet doe wee worship the Lord our God, as these fathers did, whom Iustin Martyr call [...]s, Patres Patrum, & whom with him we will prefer to any posterior fathers whatsoeuer.

R.

That cannot be, seeing it is known, it is not threescore yeers since your Religion came into this Country.

C.

No (Sir) I will make known to you, that it is 1500 yeeres since this same Religion preached and professed now, was then preached and professed by our Ancient fathers. The first Religion that euer we had was gentilisme, our fathers worshipped Diana, the Sun, the Moone, the Starres.

[Page]R.

That was a pittifull blindnesse.

C.

So it was indeed: but in the first hundreth yeere we embraced Christianity, and eight hundreth yeere after Christ, we were infected with Papistrie, and now againe hath God called vs by the light of the gospel to our ancient Religion of Christianity, whereby wee worshippe the Father in his sonne according to his word, and no other way.

R.

You speake faire enough to it, be as it will; but if it be true that you say, then would you be in communion with the Catholike Church.

C.

And so thanks to God we are, reioycing as I said vnto you, that the Lord by his Gospell hath called vs to bee Christian Catholikes.

[Page]R.

That is also [...] a new stile of your owne, that you will bee called Christian Catholikes.

C.

If you were acquainted with antiquity, you would not call it new, with many such nouelties you charge vs, which are indeed ancient truthes: it is eleuen hundreth yeeres since in the seuenth Councell of Carthage, professors of the Gospell were called Catholike Christians.

R.

But to let the style passe, how can you say, you are in cō munion with the Catholike Church, seeing you haue made separation [...] from the Romane Church, and refuse to bee stiled Roman Catholikes?

C.

The Romane Church in her best estate was neuer more but a member of the Catholike [Page] Church, and there is no more reason to cal the Roman church the Catholike Church, nor to say, that Rome is all Italy, or Pa [...]s is all France: but now seeing the Ro [...]an Church hath plaied the Whore, made a shameful Apostasie from her first estate, wee haue done no wrong in seperating from her: but for our warrant haue Gods owne Proclamation commanding vs to doe so.

R.

Where haue you that Proclamation?

C.

There it is, Come out of Babell my people.

R.

But no word is there of Rome

C.

I shall proue to you that this Babel is Rome, and your own Doctors cannot deny it.

[Page]R.

If you make all good you haue said, I will say no more, but there is many one beguiled.

C.

If you will heare mee by Gods grace I shall make it good.

R.

I will not refuse to heare you, and I trust also to answere you.

C.

It is not me you shall hear, but the voice of the Gospell, which if it were heard at Rome, I am of that mind, the Popes kingdome should not long continue.

R.

It will bee hard for you to get hearing there.

C.

And why? since Sodomits there haue their brothels, and Iewes haue their Synagogues, wherein they curse Christ, why may not Protestants bee tolerated to haue a Church wherein to preach?

[Page]R.

Good sooth they loue you worse then any of them.

I thinke it true; for on [...] Deuill can dwell well inough with an other, yea a legion of them in one man, but none of them will giue place to Christ. But tell me how long, God willing, mind you to stay in this towne?

R.

I hope to be in it all this weeke.

C.

Then I pray you, let vs spare euery day one howre or two for conference, and I will come to you to your owne chamber.

R.

Agreed am I, and let our conference to morow continue about antiquitie, for I think it somewhat strange that you should pretend it.

C.

Well. let it be so.

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THE FIRST DAYES CONFERENCE. Concerning Antiquitie in General.

R. WElcome (Sir) I see you are a true man, and keepe promise.

C.

What I am not in good faine would I be.

R.

Thinke you not best we begin where wee left yesternight?

C.

Yea indeede.

[Page]R.

What say you then of Antiquitie? will you not graunt that to bee the true Church which hath the most auncient Doctrine?

C.

That is a thing out of all question; the Doctrine which is most ancient I embrace, and beleeue to be most true.

R.

You will myre your selfe incontinent, for these which yee call corruptions in the Church of Rome, some of them will be found a thousand yeares old.

C.

What is that to the matter? Seeing the truth whereby we condemne these corruptions will be found elder then they, and wee, to speake with Vincentius, wil euer preferre the olde Faith to new vnfaithfulnesse: for if you thinke this a [Page] good Argument: Such a doctrine or ceremonie should be receiued, because it is one thousand and two hundred yeares old, then by the same reason the heresies of Simon Magus must bee receiued for a truth, because they were taught by him one thousand and sixe hundred yeares since.

R.

But said you not euen now, you would acknowledge that to be most true which is most ancient?

C.

I say that same yet; And that you may conceiue it the better, I pray you consider that truth and errour, suppose they came not of the same parents, yet in regard of time they are like two twinnes, but the vantage of time that is, truth hath [Page] it, suppose very little.

R.

I pray you let me heare that at more length, for I see it will greatly helpe to cleare this point.

C.

Will you goe vp to the Church in Paradise, and you shall see the first voice that sounded there was Gods voice: For in the first two Chapters of Genesis, you will heare nothing but Deus dixit, God said: but incontinent in the third Chapter comes in, Et Serpens dixit, and the Serpent said.

R.

I see that clearely.

C.

And I am glad you doe so: But I pray you consider, wil any man be so mad as to thinke that Sathans lies shall bee receiued for a truth, because they are now neere sixe thousand yeares old?

[Page]R.

It were no reason indeed, because albeit his lies [...]ee olde, yet (as you haue said) there is a Truth elder.

C.

I pray you remember that, that it may confirme you against the craft of Sathan, when hee would couer errour with a shew of Antiquitie.

R.

I hope to doe so.

C.

Now will yee come down againe to the dayes of Christ Iesus; may you not see that when our Lord sent out his Apostles, Sathan also sent out his false Apostles▪ and when Simon Peter comes out to Preach the Gospell, Simon Magus is stirred vp to Preach heresies?

R.

I see that also.

C.

Then let vs agree in this, since Truth is to bee sought [Page] from our fathers according as we are commanded, Enquire for the good and olde way; we will goe seeke it from our most ancient fathers.

R.

Truely it caries with it I thinke a reason, that we should not be mooued with the opinion of any father, where they varie from the doctrine of the first fathers.

C.

You▪ speake now as you should, and as before I shewed you was the mind of that ancient father Iustine Martyr:Quest. 119 when it was obiected to him, such a father thought such a thing, he answered, Sed pater patrum Apostolus aliter sensit: And herein to confirme you, if controuersies of Religion were decided, as our Sauiour decided the question [Page] of Polygamie, the debate betweene vs and the Romish Church were soone ended.

R.

How did Christ resolue that contro [...]ersie of Polygamie?

C.

By this rule, It was not so from the beginning: Leauing this to vs as a maxime in Religion, and a most sure rule whereby to trie truth from falshood, What hath not be [...]ne from the beginning, let it bee reiected as a noueltie. And herein the ancient fathers agree with vs. Be yee sollowers of me (saith the Apostle) as I am of Christ: if I, or an Angel, &c. Mihi antiquitas Iesi [...] Christus est, cui non obedire manifestus est, & irremissibilis interitus. Ignat. Epist. ad Philad▪

Non attendendum quid quis ante nos faciendum putauerit, sed[Page]quid, qui ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit. Cypri. lib. 2. Epist. 3.

Ne (que) enim hominis consue [...]udinem, sed Deiveritatem sequi oportet. Ibid.

Non est de consuetudine praescribendum, sed ratione vincendum. Ad Quintinum.

Obstinatio est, & praesumptio humanam traditionem diuinae dispositioni antepone [...]e, nec animadvertere [...]ndignaeri, & irasci deum; quoties diuina praecepta soluit, & praeterit humana traditio. Ad Pompeium.

Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas est erroris. Ibid.

Si ad diuinae traditionis caput, & originem reuertamur, cessat error humanus. Ibid

Frustrà quidam, quiratione vincuntur, consuetudinem nòbis opponunt,[Page]q [...]asi con [...]uetudo sit mator ver [...]. [...]d [...]uba [...]anum.

Nec [...], n [...]c m [...]iorum erro [...] seq [...], e [...], sed au [...]horitas Script [...]r [...]r [...], & [...]i docem is imper [...]m: [...] [...]iaei po [...] Baalim abieruns quos [...]idicerunt a patribus. Hie [...]on. in lerem. cap. 9.

Omnes h [...]retici aetati Eccle [...]ie vniuer sa [...]is comparati, minores, tempore congrue vocantur: quia ipsi ab eâ, non autem ipsa egressa est [...]b illis. Greg. in Iob. lib. 10. Sect. 37.

Sicut in omnibus veritas imaginem antecedit, postremò similitudo succedit: ita prior veritas quam haeresis. Tertul. praescrip. aduersus haeret.

R.

But what makes these against the Church of Rome?

C.

Yea, very much, for all these nouelties which shee hath [Page] inuented, and intruded into the Church, she colours them with the shadow of ancient custome, and so very craftily vnder the name of Antiquitie, fights against Antiquitie.

R.

It is not enough to affirme that, vnlesse yee qualifie it.

C.

I will make it cleare to you, if first yee heare a notable testimonie o [...] Vincentius to this same purpose.Cap. 10.

R.

What sayes he?

C.

It is a propertie of Christian modestie not to deliuer their owne things to the after-commers, but to keepe things receiued from their fore-beers.

R.

Very well; that place makes [...]gainst you who will not keepe the Religion of your fore-beers.

[Page]C.

It makes not against vs, but against the Church of Rome, who hath departed from the Religion of them who are theirs and our fore [...]eer [...] also, as the remnant of his words will declare vnto you.

R.

Reade them out then.

C.

Hee is expounding heere he Apostles words: If I, or an Angell from heauen should bring to you another doctrine, then that which yee haue receiued, let him be accursed.

R.

What sayes hee of it?

C.

These are his words: If Peter, if Andrew, if Iohn, yea if the whole Apostles would Preach to you an other way then is deliuered in the Gospell, let them be accursed: To Preach vnto Christian Catholickes, besides [...]hat which we haue[Page]receiued, was neuer, is neuer, shall neuer be lawfull.

R.

Let it bee so, the Church of Rome hath deliuered no doctrine but that shee hath rec [...]iued.

C.

Yes, but shee hath; and now once for all, I will giue you amongst many, one cleare example of it. In the thirteenth Session of the Councell of Constance, as is Recorded by Carranza one of your owne, and Registred in your Canon Law, there is an Act made of this tenour. Licet in Primitiuâ Ecclesiâ huiusmodi Sacramentum reciperetur a fidelibus sub vtra (que) specie, tamen haec consuetudo ad euitandum aliqua pericula, & scandala, est rationa [...]iliter introducta, quòd a conficientibus sub vtra (que) specie, a laicis[Page]tantummodo sub specie panis suscipiatur. Albeit in the Primitiue Church, this Sacrament was receiued of the faithful vnder both the kinds, yet to eschewe some perils and offences, this custome now with very good reason is brought in, that the Priest should receiue it vnder both the kinds, but the people should receiue the bread onely, and not the cup. What thinke yee now of this place? Hath not the Church of Rome here deliuered a Doctrine which shee hath not receiued? Is there not heere a manifest changing of Christs ordinance, and by their owne confession a plaine departing from Antiquitie? What thinke you of this one instance?

R.

I will aduise vpon it.

[Page]C.

Doe so, but I pray you fight not against the cleare light; and remember that all bee it the Doctours of your Church pretend alwayes Antiquitie, Antiquitie; the [...]athers, the fathers; yet this one instance among a hundreth, prooues them to bee fathers o [...] nouelties: what say yee? Tell me, like yee to heare any more of Vincentius?

R.

I am content, but let mee know [...]irst what writer hee is, and whose Translation is that.

C.

He was a French-man, he writ this Treatise in the fiue hundreth yeare of Christ, and heere it is Translated by Ninian Winzet, a Masse-priest of the Church of Rome, which yee cannot refuse.

[Page]R.

Reade on, what sayes he further?

C.

There is a commaund giuen to Timothie, Depos [...]um serua, which in all good reason should binde his successors: Thus hee expounds it: Keepe that which is committed to thee, not that which is inuented by thee: which thou hast receiued, not which thou hast imagined: wherein thou art no Author, inuenter, sorger, but a keeper; not a Law-maker but a Law-keeper; not a guide, but a follower: saue that which is giuen thee, saue the talent of Catholick faith vnbroken, vncorrupt: what thou hast receiued, render it againe, if thou hast receiued Gold, render Gold againe; slippe not in one thing in stead of an other, for Gold lay not downe lead, nor brasse.

[Page]R.

I heare all that, and I thinke hee writes like a sound Diuine.

C.

Then take heed [...]; the Apostle protests he d [...]liuered that to the Corinthians, which hee had receiued from the LORD IESVS.

R.

I know that.

C.

Hee commanded Timothie, and all others his successors in the worke of the Ministerie to doe the like.

R.

And good reason so they should.

C.

Then there is the point; How is it that the Church of Rome takes on her this libertie to doe otherwise?

R.

Wherein doe they otherwise?

C.

Haue you forgot so soone? [Page] Saint Paul deliuered to the people as wel the Cup as the Bread, because hee receiued it from Christ Iesus: how is it then that the Church of Rome takes away the Cup from the people?

R.

Why? May not the Church make Lawes?

C.

No such Lawes as derogate to Christs Lawes, for in that sense you heard Vincentius denie that they are Law-makers, but Law-keepers: I pray you giue place to the truth, and consider how little cause they haue to bragge of Antiquitie, who dare make the like of that; Albeit Christ and his Apostles, and the Primitiue Church did this, yet we for good causes will doe oth [...]rwayes.

R.

Alway that is but one [...]oint,

[Page]C.

But seeing you cannot denie but they haue broken, and corrupted the auncient Catholicke faith in one point, you haue the lesse cause to beleeue or defend them in the rest, vnlesse you wil incurre Gods curse threatned on them that pares or addes to his word.

R.

The Lord saue me from his curse.

C.

Amen, but pray first that the Lord would saue you from the sin that deserues his curse.

R.

God grant it.

C.

And so I wish from my heart it may be: But I pray you consider as in one Sacrament you are guiltie of sacrilegious paring, so in both you are guiltie of sacrilegious adding and changing: and so cannot [...]schew [Page] the curse if you abide in Communion with the Church of Rome that now is.

R.

How So?

C.

As yee haue taken Wine from the Bread, so yee haue added Water to the Wine, which is a new inuention and forgerie, albeit your Doctours to excuse it cast it on Alexander the first, yet it is certain, it was not in Christs institution, and by your owne confessions was brought in many yeares after Christ, and so should bee reiected as a noueltie.

R.

That is but a smal thing, and there may be many reasons to excuse it.

C.

No: not one; Let no man bee wiser then God. Who dare adde to the ordinance of Christ? [Page] But you haue done worse in Baptisme adding Spittle, Oyle, and Salt to the element of Water: was this done by Christ or his Apostles? You father the Oyle vpon Siluester, but confesse it was not vsed in the Church in Baptisme before him, and so it is an other ancient noueltie.

R.

It may bee they haue thought good to vse these for reasons and respects which I know not; but this pertaines not to the substance of Baptisme, and can not annull it.

C.

I graunt they doe not annull Baptisme, yet are they inexcusable, who in the smallest thing dare alter the institution of Christ: Are not his Sacraments the Seales of his couenant?

[Page]R.

I confesse they are.

C.

Why then, since it is treason to pare, or adde any thing to the forme of the Princes Signet, is it not Sacrilegious boldness [...] to pare or adde to Christs Sacrament? But least you should thinke the controuersi [...] onely to bee about these things, you shall know that, except the Article of the Trinitie, the Church of Rome hath left no Article of our Faith vncorrupted, so that it is most certaine, This Church of Rome with the doctrine, and iurisdiction nowe maintained by her, was not in the Primitiue Church.

R.

O but I wil tell you what I once heard concerning that matter, from one of their Doctors: That there is a great difference[Page]betweene a Church in her infancie, and her older and riper age: For as it growes in age, so may it and should it increase in many things which it had not in the infancie thereof.

C.

Nowe I see you speake from such knowledge, as the great labours of the Iesuites workes in the hearts of their captiues, and because it is your last and greatest defence, I will let you still see out of the words of Vincentius, which you will like better then mine, that this makes nothing for you.

R.

Come on let vs see; what sayes Vincentius?

C.

He grants, There should be an encr [...]ase in Faith, but not a change of Faith.

R.

That is a strange distinction, [Page] and yet so honest, that in truth I dare not gaine-say it.

C.

Heare him then; hee expounds the two parts of his distinction: To encrease (saith he) is when a thing biding in it selfe is more amplified: To change, is when a thing going out of it selfe is translated & turned into an other. To make this cleare, hee illustrates it by a proper similitude: Let (sayes hee) the Religion of soules follow the nature of bodies, which albe [...]t in processe of yeres they grow, yet they remaine the same: the same members, the same Ioyntes are in Children which are in Men, though in the one stronger and greater, in the other smaller and weaker: but if the shape bee turned in any forme not of the owne kind, or any thing bee eked to the number[Page]of the members, or taken from the same, then either the body perisheth, or becomes monstrous, or at the least becomes weake. So in Religion, if wee shall begin to mixe noueltie with Antiquitie, we shall make the Church a brothell of filthie and abominable errours, which before was a Temple of chaste and vndefiled veritie, where as the Church of Christ should bee a diligent keeper of the doctrine deliuered to it, changing nothing, diminishing nothing, adding nothing. Now these are the words of Vincentius, and I demand of you out of the light of your conscience if you can gaine-say them.

R.

In truth it is a pretie discourse, and I embrace all that he hath said as a truth.

C.

Aduise you th [...]n yet, [Page] what yee wil say for the Church of Rome, since it can not bee denied they haue changed, diminished, and added to the ancient Catholicke faith: Some ceremonies and opinions they haue which Antiquitie knewe not, & some the ancient Church had, which they haue pared away, and in a word haue so change, that in Rome is nothing anci [...]nt but the name.

R.

That seemes very hard: For, though in some ceremonies there bee adding, paring, and chaunging, yet I can not thinke it is in substance.

C.

You are farre deceiued, for they haue made a change in the substance.

R.

Wherein?

C.

In the maine point of saluation, [Page] as now among many I will shew you by this one. What Diuinitie is this, to teach people to pray that God would bring them to Heauen by an other blood then Christs blood?

R.

O that can not be.

C.

Nay maruaile not, there is the Prayer of their owne Masse booke.

Tu per Thomae sanguinem, quem ille pro te pendit, fac nos Christe scandere, quò Thomas ascendit.

R.

I haue not he [...]rd of that, for my owne part I would bee loath to chaunge the blood of the couenant, or to disgrace it so farre as to ioyne any other with it.

C.

The more wise are you, for it is by Christs blood Onely, [Page] that reconciliation is made. But what thinke yee of confidence, should wee put considence in any but in God?

R.

No truely.

C.

What a Prayer is this thē?

Inua ergo omnes gentes

In te Sancte confidentes Confessor Armigile.

And is not Prayer thinke you and Inuocation, a speciall point of Gods seruice?

R.

So it is.

C.

Why then is it giuen to Saints; and that Psalter which containes Prayers & praises to God, all turned ouer to the Virgine Marie? Should mens traditions, to whome God by his heauenly oracle hath not borne testimonie, be receiued, Pari pietatis affectu & reuerentiâ, with [Page] like deuotion and reuerence, as the word of God?

R.

Who sayes that?

C.

The Councell of Trent. Dist. 19. ca. Si Rom [...] norum & in Canonici [...]. Should the foure Councels bee receiued as the foure Euangelists, or should the Canon Law and decretall Epistles bee receiued as Canonicall Scripture?

R.

I know not what that is.

C.

Then I will tell you: Twelue hundreth yeares after Christ, Gratian a Benedictine Monke, gathered together the sentences of Councels, Fathers, and Popes, concerning sundrie matters of Religion, and set it forth, which is commonly called Decretum; and after him certain Popes, as Gregory the ninth, Boniface the eight, Clemens the fift, Iohn the twentie two, following [Page] the example of Gratian, haue gathered the like: These are called Decretals, and Extrauagants added to Decretum; all of them make vp the Canon law, which now must bee equalled with the word, and all to bee receiued, as if Peter his owne mouth had pronounced them. Is not this against the golden rule of Vincentius, to mixe noueltie with Antiquitie; What say you to it?

R.

In truth I can not iudge of that which I know not.

C.

I will giue you but one Decrete of this law, and let you see how it strikes the Apostle S. Paul in the teeth, that by it you may iudge of the rest.Caus. 26. quaest. 2. & Caus. 31. qu [...]st. 1. Secundam accipere vxorem secundùm Apostoli praeceptum licitum est; secundum[Page]autem veritatis rationem verè fornicatio est. Second marriage [...]ccording to the Apostles precept is lawful, but according to the truth of reason is plaine fornication. I am not now to dispute whether Church-men may Marrie or not:Causa. 26. Quest. 2. themselues grant it is not forbidden, neither by Legall, nor Apostolicall authoritie, yet they will forbid it. But what Diuinitie is this? According to the Apostles precept, it is lawfull to Marrie, but according to truth and reason it is Whoredome, that is as they would saye, according to the word of God in the Bible it is true, but according to the word of God in the Canon Law written twelue hundreth yeares after Christ it is false. Did the Apostle [Page] giue any precept without reason or truth? How dare they call that vnlawfull, which the Apostle cals lawfull: W [...]e be to them who call good euill. You hold silence at these things and no maruaile, for I thinke no honest man can approoue them. But to return to things of great importance, I assure you the onely question and controuersie in Religion this day may be taken vp in this question: Is Iesus the Sonne of Mary the Christ? Or as the Baptist takes it vp, Art thou hee who is come, or shall wee looke for an other?

R.

I thinke no man will denie that.

C.

Yea the Turke, and Pagane say, such Christ as Christians beleeue is neither come, nor wil [Page] come: the Iewes say hee is not come, but hee will come: The Catholicke Romane in word confesseth him, but in deede denies him: Quem praedicant impugnant, both in his Person and Offices.

R.

That is a strange assertion, & such as I haue not heard.

C.

It is strange indeede, and I would wee had no cause to charge them with it, but beecause it is the most weightie point whereof yet w [...] haue spoken, wee will referre it to bee handled in a meeter time.

R.

I am content, prouiding you forget not to make that good which you haue said.

C.

If I forget, I pray remember me: And now this Dispute about Antiquitie, I conclude [Page] with IGNATIVS: Mihi antiquitas est Iesus Christus, cui non obedire manifestus est, & irremissibilis interitus. Epist. ad Philadelphos. My Antiquitie is Iesus Christ; to disobey him is manifest and remedilesse destruction: and with that which A [...] gustine said to the Pelagians: Quia isti disserunt,De verb. Apos [...] ser. 14.& disputant nescio quas impias nouitates, etiam nos conantur arguere quòd aliquod nouum dicamus. Because these f [...]llowes maintaine certaine impious nouelties, they also goe about to charge vs, as if wee did teach any new thing. But of this if you please you shall heare more.

R.

It pleaseth me very well, & I shall attend your comming if you may at seuen howres.

C.

Let it be so.

[Page]

[Page]

THE SECOND DAYES CONFERENCE. Concerning the Antiquitie of the Church of SCOTLAND, and how the Church of ROME in her best estate was but a sister, & not a mother Church vnto it.

C.

WHat say you to day (Sir) haue you considered the points of our last conference?

[Page]R.

Yea I haue beene (as I may) thinking vpon them.

C.

What? Is not your heart mooued to come to vs?

R.

I find it mooued, but not remooued from the Church of Rome.

C.

Tell mee (I pray you) what is that which holdes you from vs?

R.

To bee plaine with you, since the Church of Rome is your mother Church, you can with no good conscience forsake her.

C.

If that be all your scruple, I hope to resolue you: for this day by Gods grace I will shewe that we of this Church of Scotland had neuer our faith from the Church of Rome; yea that in her best estate shee was no [Page] more but a sister Church vnto vs. The next day God willing I wil shew you that the Church of Rome is Apostatique now, not like that Church of olde, which the Apostle commended, and is not onely a Whoore her selfe, but the mother of Whooredomes.

R.

You haue taken much in hand.

C.

No more then by Gods grace I hope to qualifie, if you wil with patience heare me, and interrupt me not.

R.

Speake as long as you please, I shall heare you.

C.

No (Sir) I will be loath to burden you with multitude of words, but shall bee very well content, when you heare any point wherein weight is, that [Page] you warne me to cleare it.

R.

Well, I shall doe so God willing.

C.

Then first I will saye, Rome hath beene no mother Church, neither to the Churches of Asia: these were planted by Apostles and Apostolicke men; Nor yet to the Churches of A [...]ricke: Christianity was first conueied to them by Marke the Euangelist, and the Eunuch of Ethiopia, whom Philip baptised: And I can let you see (but that I shall disgresse ouer farre) that fiue hūdreth yeres after Christ the Churches of Africke would not acknowledge the Bishop of Rome their superiour.

R.

Our question is not now concerning them: for I knowe the Church of Rome receiued [Page] her faith from the Churches of Asia, and they of Asia receiued it not from the Church of Rome. And as to them of Africke, whatsoeuer is disputable, there wee leaue it as not pertaining to our present puropse.

C.

Oh good Sir, you will grant then that the Church of Rome is farre posterior to the Churches of A [...]ia, and, if it bee compared with them, is but a daughter Church.

R.

That I can not denie: But the Churches of Europe, and specially these of the west parts were first conuerted to Christ by the Church of Rome.

C.

No (Sir) yee are deceiued in that also, and this is the point wherein I am to contradict you.

[Page]R.

I am sure you will not contradict mee, without some warrant.

C.

That were no reason: I will let you see that the most famous Churches of Europe (as their Records testifie) had not their faith from the Church of Rome, and then I will come to our owne.

R.

I think long to heare that.

C.

And I will delay you no longer. In the Councel of Trent, there was a great question betweene the French and Spanish Prelates, about the first place: The greatest Argument that any of them vsed, was from the Antiquitie of their Christianitie, which none of them alleadged, they had from the Church of Rome, albeit at that time [Page] both of them sought the Popes fauour.

R.

From whence got they it then, if they got it not from Rome?

C.

The Spaniards alleadged, they were made Christians by Saint Iames, who after hee had Preached the Gospell in Spaine, returned to Palestina, and was president of that famous Councell holden at Ierusalem, Act. 15 then being Martyred, his bones were brought to Compostella, and there buried. The French replied that their narration was fabulous, and that it is more likely, if any Apostle came to Spaine, hee came rather by land to France, and so taught them by the way, then otherwise by Sea: And if any credit might be [Page] giuen to such traditions, they could also with more probabilitie alledge that Lazarus, and Nathaniel taught the Gospell among them▪ & this at that time they spake for themselues. But out of more certaine Storie this might bee said also for them, th [...]t Philip Preached the Gospell in France: CRESCENS also Pauls Disciple, for there it is said 2. Tim. 4. TITVS is gone to Dalmatia, and Cresc [...]ns to Galatia: Euseb. lib. 3. cap. calles it Gallia. Besides him Trophymus, Cent. 2. c. 2. another of Pauls Disciples taught at Orleance: Photinus againe, a very worthy man, and after him Irenaeus taught the Gospell at Lyons. Germaine was first conuerted by Lucius of Cyrene, Auentinus in Annal. Boiorum. Paules kinsman and companion. Yea [Page] the Churches of Italy will not bee found to haue the Church of Rome for their Mother Church, for why Barnab [...]s first Preached the Gospell at Millan, as testifieth Sabellicus, Sabel. Enn [...]a [...]. 7. li. 4. and Apollinaris taught at Rauenna. But to come to the Church of Rome, tell mee, who did first conuert the Romanes to the Christian faith?

R.

Who but Saint Peter!

C.

I will not now contend with you about that matter though it bee very dispu [...]able, Whether Peter was at Rome or not; and your owne man Clemens, Clem. lib. 1. Recognitionum and Dorotheus also affirme, that Barnabas first taught the Gospell at Rome: But if Peter came to Rome, what time came he to it?

[Page]R.

I cannot well remember.

C.

I will helpe you:Lib. 3. Cap. 1. & 3. Irenaeus sayes, S. Peter came to Rome when Saint Matthew wrote his Euangell, in the third yeare of Cai [...]s, & fortie one after Christ. As for Saint Paul hee wrote not his Epistle to Rome, till the thirteenth yeare of [...] Claudius, Cen. Lib. 1. Cap. 10. and fiftie fiue years after Christ, and himself came not to Rome till the fiftie eight yeare after Christ.

R.

What would you make of all that?

C.

Either yee must grant the Church of Rome was not conuerted by Saint Peter, or then there was no Church there before the fortie one yeare after our Lord, at which time Saint Peter came to it.

[Page]R.

Let it be so.

C.

Then I pray you consider, that the Church of this Land, being little posterior in time to the Church of Rome, there is no reason they should beare vs downe with the shadow of their Antiquitie, nor insult ouer vs, as if they were a mother Church to vs, seeing it pleased God to conuert vs to the Christian faith, almost as soone as themselues, and that not by them but by others whom he sent among vs.

R.

But yee haue not made that cleare as yet.

C.

What I haue not, I shall by Gods grace. In the second yeare of Claudi [...]s, and fortie foure yeares after Christ, Simon Zelotes an Apostle came to Britaine, [Page] and, Preached the Gospel: This was but three yeares after Simon Peter came to Rome.

R.

How will you proue that?

C.

My proofes are; Dorotheus in his Synopsis: Simon Zelotes peragratâ Mauritaniâ, & Aphrorum regione, Christ [...]m praedicauit tandem in Britannia, vbi crucifixus, occïsus, & sepultus est. Doroth. Againe, Nicephorus lib. 2. cap. 40. sayes that Simon Zelotes hauing Preached to many Countreyes, at length Euangelij doctrinam ad occidentalem Oceanum insulas (que) Britannica [...] perfert, and both of them are cited by your late Cardinall, writer of the Historie, Baronius.

R.

Is that all you haue for you?

C.

No: I haue more yet; for [Page] Ioseph of Arimathea, Baron. Annales. about the yeare of our Lord fiftie three, came also to Britaine, and taught the Gospell: witnesses hereof are Balaeus, Flemingus, Capgrauus, Scropus, Polidorus Virgilius; and as many thinke, he was sent by Philip out of France ouer to Britaine. Moreouer Theodoret witnesseth, that the Apostle Saint Paul after his deliuerance out of Prison vnder Nero, Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. Holius. came into Britaine, and taught the Gospell. And the same also is testified by Sophronius Patriarch of Ierusalem.

R.

I remember indeede that in his Epistle to the Rom. 15.24 was then of purpose to haue come to Spaine.

C.

And you may the more easily think he came to Britaine [Page] in like manner, seeing so famous an Author affirmes it: and you shal like it the better if you cōsider the matter he hath in hand, when he makes mention of the conversion of Britaine.

R.

I pray you let me heare it.

C.

The Graecians alledged that our first propagators of the evangell were base men, not comparable for wisedome and Learning to their Law-giuers, Lycurgus, Solon, and the rest: This Father replyed that the lawes of their Law-giuers were only receiued in Graecia, but that our first Preachers of the Gospell had in short time made the most famous Countries, and Kingdomes of the World to embrace it. An euident argument of a diuine power assisting [Page] them: [...], &c. for sayes hee our Fithers, and Publicans, and that Tent maker, or Cutter of Leather (so hee calles Saint Paul) hath not only made the Romans, and these who liue vnder their Empire to embrace the Christian faith, but also th [...] Scythians, Sauromatans, Indians, Ethiopians, Persians, Britans, Germans, and in a word hath induced all Nations, [...], to receiue the Lawes of CHRIST crucified. What thinke you of this testimonie?

R.

Truly I am glad to heare that the Lord among other Nations hath also had mercie on this Countrie of ours, to cōmunicate to them the grace [Page] of the Gospell.

C.

You shal yet heare more; that Aristobolus, mentioned Rom. 16. came also to this Isle, and discharged the Office of a Bishop, as witnesseth the forenamed Dorotheus. May you not see wee are not inferiour to any Christian Countrie in this part of the World, and that we haue as many cleare witnesses of our Ancient Christian faith, as any nation of Europe hath for them?

R.

Indeede I see you haue more then I would haue beleeued, if their authoritie be good enough.

C.

What need you doubt of their authoritie? for if testimonies of Fathers of the Primitiue Church bee good to proue the Antiquitie of any Church in [Page] Europe, why should their authoritie be called in doubt whē they speake for our Church?

R.

But we are informed that the Bishops of Rome were the first, who sent some of their Clergie to this Isle to convert it to the faith.

C.

You may see the contrarie, by that which I haue said alreadie; and I will yet make it more cleare to you. The first King of the South part of the Isle that embraced the Christian faith, was Lucius, in the y [...]are of our LORD one hundreth twentie and foure. In that same time Donald King of the North part of it became also a Christian.

R.

That is true; but Lucius required the Bishop of Rome to [Page] send him some teachers to instruct him in the Christian faith and (as the Chronicle recordes) he sent into Britaine, Damianus, [...]nd Fugatianus.

C.

What will you gather of that?

R.

That this Ile was converted by such teachers as the Bishop of Rome sent into it.

C.

How can you say that? seeing many in the Kingdomes were conuerted before the Kings were converted, & your owne Baronius cannot denie it; these are his wordes: Cum diu alioqui anie Euangelium Christi illu [...] perlatum fuisset, vt testatur Gilda sapiens: that long before those men Damianus, and Fuga [...]ianus came here, the Gospel was here, as witnesseth Gilda the wise: Seing [Page] your owne Writers are [...]orced to confesse it, I maruel with what face can any man say, that the Gospell came to vs from Rome.

R.

All that you haue yet said makes something for the Church of England; nothing for the Church of Scotland.

C.

W [...] inhabit both one Isle; and what good or euill specially in Religion hath come to the one, hath beene fou [...]d by manifold experiences easily deriued to the other.

R.

But what think you; whether came the light of the Gospell first to you or to them?

C.

That is a Iesuiticall Policy to diuide them whome GOD hath coupled, and to cause vs to contend together in that, wherin [Page] we agree ioyntly to contend with the Church of Rome: what part of the Isle God did first illuminate with his light is nothing to the matter: If it was their glorie to haue the Sunne of righteousnesse first shining on them, wee enuie it not; this is sufficient: the Lord had a Church here in this Isle as soon as in Rome, and neither they nor wee had our faith from Rome; and if [...]ou, or any for you will call in doubt the antiquitie of the Church of England, I warrant you, you shall finde a number both of Learned and Graue Diuines (wherein they are not inferiour to any Church in Europe) to answere for themselues. And if yet you craue further light [Page] concerning the antiquity of our Church, I will shew you that which may content you if you be reasonable.

R.

Let me heare what is that.

C.

Marke me this testimonie of Tertullian who liued in the two hundreth yeare of Christ:Adu [...]rsus I [...]daeos. cap. 7.8. Britannorumloca Romanismaccessa Christo subdita sunt. Now what part of Britaine he meanes your owne Cardinall Ba [...]onius will declare vnto you: for when he hath said, magnam B [...]itanni [...]e partem fuisse liberam, then hee proues it by the wall built so often by Victo [...]ine, by Adri [...]n; as hee cites ex A [...]lio Spartianom Adriano, and an other ce [...]tius murus built by Antonin [...]s Pius; as he cites out of Iulius Capitolinus in Pio. By this saith he, it is [Page] euident that Britannia was diuided by a wall; [...]aron. annal. anno Christi 183 Sect. 6. that part within the w [...]ll was possessed by Rom [...]ns, the other without Britanni liberè possiderunt, qui saepe muros illos egres [...] Romanos praelijs provocarun [...]: What say ye now of these testimonies?

R.

I thinke indeede that is a great testimonie for the antiquitie of your Church.

C.

So you may: for this same cause Petrus Cluniacensis vocat Scotos Antiquiores Christianos, Cen [...]ur. [...]. cap. 2. Ce [...]t. 3. cap. 3. calles Scottish men the more auncient Christians. You will make then no more contradiction, but that these testimonies which record the conuersion of Britaine, belong both to the South and North parts of the Isle?

[Page]R.

Your former argument brought out of Tertullian, and expounded by Baronius cleares that.

C.

Yet if you please, heare what Origen sayes,Hom. 4. in Ezech. who liued in the yeare of CHRIST two hundreth and sixtie; hee also witnesseth Britanniam in Christianam consentire religionem. To him we may adde Ierome, Ad Euagrium. in the yeare of our Lord foure hundreth and fiue: Gallia, Britannia, Africa, Persis, oriens I [...]dia, & omnes barbarae Nationes vnum Christum adorant, vnam obseruant regulam veritatis.

R.

But why then by some is Palladius called Scotorum Apostolus?

C.

Men may giue names as they please; but hee and Servanus,[Page]Sedulius, Nimanus and many more came, but in the fiue hundreth yeare of our Lord, and may well haue beene waterers of our Church, but sure it is they were not the first planters of it.

R.

It is likely indeed to be so.

C.

But to returne. Vnder Diocletian in the three hundreth yeare, great persecution was made by that Tyrant in al Christian Churches, and among the rest the Church of South Britaine was also persecuted by his Deputies, for the which many fled to Crachlint King of Scots, who did louingly receiue them, and assigned to them the Isle of M [...]n, and erected there a Temple dedicated to Christ called otherwise Sodo [...]ēsis ecclesia, wherin they peaceably worshipped [Page] Christ Iesus; and this our owne Chronicle witnesseth. After this in the dayes of Fethelmacus, which was about the [...]ift yeare of the Emperour Constantius, there came into this Countrie one Regulus Albatus out of Achaia a Prouince in Graecia; but the Countrie was conuerted also long before hee came: Therefore [...]iergus [...] King of the Pictes gaue him his Palace hee had in Fy [...]e, Holius. Pag. 87. where hee built the Church of Saint Andrew: desire you still to heare any more?

R.

Truely I am very glad to heare that we haue beene so ancient Christians; and yet there remaines a doubt in my heart, that the Gospell came neuer hither but out of Rome.

C.

Remember you not what [Page] I haue prooued; seeing wee are but three yeares in Christianitie behinde Rome, thinke you in so small time they did so encrease, that they spread out their branches to the vttermost parts of the earth? Yea, rather if you will reade the Storie, you shall finde that for three hundreth yeares (wherein are many three yeares) they were so vexed by the persecutors, that they could not get their owne Church stablished; as after it was when God relented the persecution. But to come n [...]erer yet vnto you; whether hee was an Apostle or an Apostolicke man, that first planted our Church, I will giue you two great reasons that wee haue our Faith from the Greeke or East Churches, not [Page] frō the Latine or West Church.

R.

Nowe that is the point, and I pray you once cleare it: for I thinke if you euince that, the Church of Rome in her best estate hath beene vnto vs a sister Church, but no mother church.

C.

My first Argument is from Petrus Cluniacensis Abbas, writing to Bernard, who affirmes that for seuen or eight hundred yeares after Christ, the Scottishmen did celebra [...]e the Passeouer all this time after the Grecian maner, not aster the Romane.

R.

I vnderstand not that.

C.

Then I will tell you it. Soone after the dayes of the Apostles, there happened a controuersie betweene the Churches of the East and West, about the celebration of the [Page] Passeouer: They of the East did obserue it the fourteenth day of the Moone, that same day wherein the Iewes kept their Passeouer: They againe of the West, thinking they would haue no communion with the Iewes, did celebrate it the next Sabboth after the fourteenth day. Polïcrates, with the orientall Bishops, alledged the authoritie of Iohn, Philip, Policarp, yea the prescript of the Euangell for their warrant. Victor, and the Bishops of the West alledged for their warrant, Saint Peter, Saint Paul: Such as were more moderate, misliked to see a Schisme in the Church for so small a matter: Irenaeus iudgeth, Obseruationes ill [...]s esse liber [...]s. Socrates, Ostendit nec Victorem, nec [Page]Policraten iustam habuisse causam de festo Paschatis tam odiose digladiandi: Nam nec Seruator (inquit) nec Apostoli [...]: Seeing neither our Sauiour, nor his Apostles by any Law hath commanded the obseruation thereof.

R.

Truely it was a lamentable thing, to see so sore a renting of the Church, for so small a cause.

C.

It was indeede: and yet that in this controuersie, the Churches of Britaine obserued the manner of the Easterne Church, it is an argument they reuerenced the East Church for their mother, from whome the grace of the Gospell had come to them.

R.

It is indeede likely: If [Page] these Churches had beene planted by Romish Doctors, they would haue also receiued the Romish ceremonies.

C.

But there is yet an other Argument:Histor. Britan. lib. 8. cap. 4. Galsrid the Cardinall in his Storie of Britaine, which hee wrote in the seuen hundreth yeare, witnesseth that the Britans would not receiue Augustinus Iunior, Cent. 2. Cap. 2. the Legate of Gregorie the great, nor yet acknowledge any primacie of the Bishop of Rome ouer them: An euident argument they esteemed not the Romish Church to be their Mother Church. To cleare this you shall know that in the sixt hundreth yeare Gregorius magnus sent into England Augustinus Iunior, to perswade the Church there to receiue the [Page] Romish ceremonies, which to that day they had not knowne; as Altars, Images, Vestiments; Crosses, wherein albeit hee had not such speedie successe as hee would, yet at length did he obtaine it, and intended also to effect the like in the Church of Scotland, Cent. 6. li. 5. cap. 17. but was strongly resisted by Daganus, and Columbanus, Qui nullam in ritibus mutationem admittere voluerunt. Againe in the seuen hundreth yeare a great schisme was in the church of Britaine: some refusing the Ceremonies of the Romish Church, keeping still their ancient custome; for the which they pretended the authoritie of Saint Iohn the Evangelist: Others againe embracing the Romish ceremonies▪ which part [Page] waxed the stronger, in that King Osuvius inclined to them. Alway the matter was debated with so hot contention, that from words it came to wepons, and twelue hundreth Church-men were slain that refused the Romish Ceremonies: this is all the good the Britaine Church got from the Popes Legate; yet the euill rested not heere, for at length in the eight hundreth yeare, by th [...] perswasion of one Ecbertus, this part of the Isle was also induced to receiue the Romish Ceremonies, and thereafter their corrupt doctrine. And thus did the Bishop of Rome first obtaine superioritie ouer vs; and disgrace by his foolish inventions the glorie, and sinceritie of the Chur [...]h of Britaine. By all [Page] this discourse which truely I haue made vnto you, it may be evident how vainely and without a cause the defenders of the Romish Church brag of their ancient Primacie ouer all Churches, and specially how far they wrong this Isle, when they will haue Rome caled a mother to the Churches here: which vnlesse you will adde one syllable cannot be admitted, for indeed she is a Stepmother, and in a word that Infamous Whoore of Babel, who as shee hath corrupted the Churches with her abhominable Superstitions, no maruell if shee hath at length infected vs also. That Rome is B [...]bel I will shew GOD willing in our next conference, where we shall yet more abūdantly see Gods goodnesse [Page] towardes this Isle, that as we were among the last of them who were deceiued by her inchantmēts, so (praised be God) we are among the first of these, whom God by the light of the Gospell hath deliuered from her bondage: And the LORD more and more open your eyes to see the truth.

R.

God grant me that grace. I will not denie you haue wakened thoughts in mee which at this time I cannot vtter: And now if you prooue Rome to bee Babel, I wil thinke my selfe happie that God hath sent mee this occasion, as to call mee out of it among others of his people. But to morrow, God willing, you will (I hope) keepe your promise.

[Page]C.

If God lend mee life, and health, I will not faile.

[Page]

THE THIRD DAYES CONFERENCE. Concerning the Apostacie of the Church of ROME, and how shee is now become that mother of Whoredomes. REVEL.

C.

NOw (Sir) I am come againe to keepe my promise, & to proue vnto you that Babel in the Reuelation signifieth Rome.

[Page]R.

I thinke that shall bee the most difficult labour you haue taken in hand hitherto.

C.

Will you make mee this promise, to quit your communion with the Church of Rome, if I proue her to be the Whore of Babel, the mother of Whoredomes?

R.

I thinke it were good reason: for I see what euer that Babel may be, much euill is spoken of it, and all Gods people are commaunded to goe out of Babel, with certification, if they will not, they shall be partakers of her plagues.

C.

Goe to then, we will first lay this for a ground, that Babel here is not to be taken literally, neither for Babel in Egypt called now Cayrus, nor yet for Babel in [Page] Caldie: but that figuratiuely it signifies some other thing besides any of them, and this is granted by your owne Doctors. Hoc primùm constet, Riber. in Apoc. 14. nomen Babylon [...]s hic non propriè, sed figura [...]è accipi: Cum dicit mysterium, mysticum esse indicat quod dicit, id est, arcanum quippiam latere in nomine Babylonïs, nec ita debere accipi vt sonat.

R.

Let that passe, for I see in that generall you and they agree.

C.

Wel then; wee will come and see what is vnderstood by Babel: where if you will first heare how the Romish Doctors expound Babel, you shall see such confusion among them as declares them to bee the builders of Babel indeed, for one of [Page] them vnderstands not what the other saies.

R.

How so?

C.

You shal see how so. The Divines of Rhemes say that Babel, and the Whoore of Babel signifies the vniversall companie of the wicked. Reuel. cap. 14.8. what thinke you of that?

R.

Good [...]ooth I cānot think it a solid Commentarie: for this Whoore of Babel is said to make all Nations drunken with the wine of her fornications, & it is a hard speech to say that the vniversall companie of the reproba [...]e hath corrupted al Nations.

C.

You take it vp very wisely: And yet that they themselues speake this without any certaine knowledge it appeares by that, which they say Cap. 17. [Page] 18. these are their words: if this great Citie be meant of any one Citie, and not of the vniuersall companie of the reprobate &c. it is likely to be Olde Rome till the dayes of Constantine. And againe vpon the fift verse of that same Chapter they say: The first persecuting Emperours were but figures of Antichrist, and it may wel be that the great Antichrist shall sit in Rome also as his figures sate in Rome.

R.

Say the Rhemists, that it may verie well bee that Antichrist shall sit in Rome?

C.

Yea forsooth, looke their owne words.

R.

I haue no skill of that: I neuer heard but that he should be a Iew of the Tribe of Dan, and should sit in Ierusalem.

[Page]C.

That is so vncertaine a fable that (as you see) themselues cannot leane to it, and their speech for vs is plaine enough, it may very well bee (say they) that Antichrist shall sit at Rome. But to proceed in our purpose, this exposition called Communis expositio, is reiected by their own companions.Viega. in Apoca. In hac multa sunt ad quae visio invita & repugnans trahitur, so sayes Viega in Apocal. 17.

R.

I thinke they haue reason to say so: but after what manner doe they expound Babel?

C.

You shall heare.De Pont. Rom. lib. 2. cap. 2. Bellarmine not onely confesseth Babel is Rome, but proues it by the testimonie of ancient fathers.In Apo. 14. Ribera thus, Romae conueniunt aptissimè omnia quae de Babylone dicuntur hoc libro, atqueillud imprimis,[Page]quod alij conuenire non potest: Septem capita, septem sunt montes. Whatsoeuer in this book is spoken of Babel, agrees most properly to Rome, especially that which can agree to none other, the Seuen heads are seuen hils.

R.

That is plaine talke: Indeed I haue heard much shifting about these hils, and one of thē selues said to mee that these seuen hils signifie seauen deadly sinnes, all to this end to denie that this Prophecie points out Rome, but I neuer heard it confessed before so clearly.

C.

You may well say it: for the Rhemists charge the Protestants with madnes for expounding the Seuen heads seuen hils; they should impute madnesse to their owne fellowes, and not [Page] to vs, for they are forced to confesse that this Babel is Rome, and the Seuen heads seuen hils, wherein the whoore sits.

R.

In truth I see they haue the weakest end of the string; some of them denying Babel to be Rome; some of them not only granting, but proouing it.

C.

But because I will hide nothing from you, you shall heare what distinctions they vse: Bellarmine saith, by Babel is meant Ethnica Roma sub Imperatoribus, Ethnique Rome vnder Emperors. Viega againe he saies,In si [...]e cap. 18. Sermo non es [...] de antiquâ illâ Româ, sed de illâ quae s [...]orebit extremo mundi tempore, the speech is not of old Rome, but of Rome as it shall be in the last time of the World: yet hee standes not at [Page] this but comes (as Ribera also doth) and takes vp both the opinions.In Apocal. 14. Quicquid mali de Româ scribitur in hac Apocalypsi, vel ad tempus illud spectat, quo gentilibus Imperatoribu [...] seruiebat, vel Pontificem suum a se ei [...]cerit. Whatsoeuer euill is spoken of Rome in this Apocalyps pertaines either to that Rome which was subiect to Ethnique Emperours, or to that Rome which will make defection from the Bishop of Rome and cast him out of their Citie: for they grant that their Bishop will bee cast out of Rome, that Rome will bee vtterly ruinated, & yet say they euen then when there shall not bee such a thing as Rome, y [...]t their Pope shall be Bishop of Rome: what thinke you of this stuffe? see you not [Page] how they reele? some of them saye Rome was Babel, some of them say it will bee Babel; none of them can denie that this Babel spoken of by Saint Iohn, the chiefe seat and Citie of Antichrist, is Rome.

R.

I thinke it goes very hard with them, when their best Doctors can say no more in defence of Rome, but it was Babel, or it will be Babel, that is, either Antichrist sate there, or will sett there.

C.

I hope you shall thinke much more before you goe: for now I will improue their distinction, and let you see it is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours, nor the Towne of Rome in the last time of the World, that here is called Babel but the [Page] whorish Church of Rome gouerned by Apostated Popes.

R.

Make that cleare and the cause is wonne.

Babel in the Reuelation is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours, but Rome once Christian now corrupted vnder Popes.

C.

It is euident S. Iohn prophecies of the state of Rome as it will bee in the dayes of Antichrist, so sayes the Iesuite Viega▪ Haec est quarta visio huius operis; ea (que) illustrissima, & ad Antichristi tempora pertinens. So also sayes the Iesuite Ribera, a ca. 12. ad 21. Est huius libri pars secunda, & iota ad Antichristum, eius (que) tempora pertinet. But the dayes of persecuting Emperours, were not the dayes of Antichrist: if they [Page] so say, they destroy all their owne doctrine concerning Antichrist, and therefore this prophecie of Babel, is not to bee vnderstood of the Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours. Secondly, Ethnicke Rome as yet had not embraced the Gospell, and was not married with Christ, and therefore cannot be this Whore, which Carthusian their owne man expounds to be An adulterous Whore: You shall finde no people in holy Scripture charged with spirituall Whoredom, but such as haue beene married with Christ, none can bee Apostates from the faith, who neuer stoode in the faith, there must bee [...] before [...]. This whoorish Babel then can not be Ethnicke Rome, vnmarried with [Page] Christ. Seeing themselues doe grant it is Rome, it must bee Rome once Christian, but now corrupted: once Apostolicke standing in the faith, now Apostati [...]ke fallen from the faith. Thirdly, this Whore of Babel hath a cup in her hand full of abominations, and the filthines of her fornication [...], wherewith shee makes drunken the inhabitants of the earth. By this golden cup Berengandus their owne man vnderstands, Documenta erroribus plena: And so this Babel can not signifie Rome vnder Emperors, who subdued the world by force of Sword and plaine violence, but must signifie Rome vnder Popes, which hath deceiued the world by false doctrine and lying myracles. Fourthly, [Page] this Babel is called the mother of Whoredomes and abominations in the earth, which not onely her selfe hath played the Whoore, corrupting the true worship of God, but hath inforced her corruptions and superstitions vpon oth [...]rs. Now it is knowne that olde Rome sought no more but subiection of bodies, leauing the consciences of people free to any kind of worshippe they pleased: They subdued the Iewes, and forced them to pay tribute; but left them to their owne Religion: yea so farre were they from inforcing their superstitious worship vpon any nation, that by the contrarie themselues were infected with the superstitions of all nations, as is euident by [Page] their Pantheon, which they erected in the honour of all Gods. And so it is not Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours which heere is called the Mother of whoredomes. Carthus. Fiftly, the name of this Babel is mysterium, in quo aliud cernitur, aliud intelligitur: Quia enim tot simulatis virtutibus decoratur, non omnibus mulieris huius prauatas innotescet, sed viris ius [...]is & prudentibus. So then by this Babel, some mysticall enemie is vnderstood, being indeede an enemie, but in shew pretending friendship: and therfore called afterward Gog, and not Magog, that is, not an open and plain enemy, as is the Turke: But Gog, a couered enemie: for this cause figured also before by a beast with two hornes, looking [Page] like a Lambe, but speaking like the Dragon. To this purpose sayes IEROME,In Daniel. 11. Simulabit se ducem faederis: And Hilarius, that Antichrist shall bee contrarie to Christ, vnder a [...]orme of fained and hypocriticall godlinesse. And Chrysostome, In Matth. Hom. 49. Antichrist must bee knowne by his doctrine, not by his titles, miracles, nor words of godlinesse. And therefore it is a silly defence of the Iesuites: The Pope (say they) prayers humbly to God, and calles himselfe seruus seruorum Dei, therefore is not an aduersarie: for the Question is not what he calles hims [...]lfe, but what hee is. But to hold vpon this point, it is euident by what which I haue said, that by Babel here is not meant Rome Ethnicke, nor yet Rome [Page] which at the last shall rebell (for both these are open enemies) but Rome vnder Popes, a mysticall enemie. Sixthly, in this Reuelation, there are two women described; the one Chap. 12. clothed with the Sunne, which is CHRIST, hauing on her head twelue Starres for a Garland, (the glorie of the true Church is the doctrine of the twelue Apostles) and vnder her feete the Moone, figuring this mutable world: This woman (as themselues confesse) represents the true Church. The other woman described Chap. 17. is arayed in Purple, Scarlet, Gold, and precious stones, voide of inward beautie and chastitie, shee sets forth her selfe with all externall brauerie, that shee may drawe [Page] many louers to her. Now (I say) seeing the first woman signifies the true Church (as themselues confesse) and afterward is called the L [...]mbes wife, why doe they not [...]ee that this whorish woman must signifie the false Church? And since they grant that Babel is Rome, what else can the whoore of Babel be, but the whoorish Church of Rome? And therefore their owne Doctours expounding that prophecie of Saint Iohn, Babel is fallen, and become an habitation of di [...]els: Cap. 13. Ribera expounds it of an externall desolation, acc [...]rding to that of [...]say, proph [...] cied of the first Babel, The [...]im, and Z [...]m shall leape there. But Viega, Nobis etiam illud dicendum vi [...]etur cum Arethâ, Primasio,[Page]Ambrosio, Ansberto, Haimone, idololatriam eius vrbis significari, desecturam (que), esse Romam a fide, at (que) adcò futuram esse habitationem daemoniorum ob execranda slagitia, & i [...]olotriae superstitionē, expounds it also of Rome her falling from the faith, which hee sayes is a thing which will be, but we say according to truth is a thing that is done already, the foretold defection is come, Antichrist that man of sinne is discouered, God by the breath of his mouth is dayly consuming him.

[Page]

THE FOVRTH DAYES CONFERENCE. Wherein is declared that ROME is the seate of Antichrist.

C.

GOod morrow (Sir) how doe you to day?

R.

The best I can.

C.

It is most like you haue not rested well this night.

R.

To say the truth; Thinking on our conference made my rest the lesse.

[Page]C.

It agrees but ill with you to heare the Church of Rome conuicted of Apostasie.

R.

I thinke so indeede, and still will so thinke till ye resolue this question: what is the cause, there being so many VVise and Learned men in the Popes Church, that they cannot see the truth, and follow it?

C.

Whether they see or see not I cannot tell you, but you know what the Apostle sayes. Brethren yee see your calling, 1. Cor. 1.26 not many wise, not many noble, nor mightie men after the flesh are called, but God hath chosen the foolish thinges of the World to confound [...]he wise.

R.

I knowe that is the Apostles saying; but yet I cannot but maruell what should holde [Page] them backe from knowledge of the truth.

C.

You shall cease to maruel if you con [...]der one thing.

R.

What is that?

C.

VVhen Christ shewed himselfe to the World, how many of the Nobles, and Learned Rabbins, did know him? Will you find any more among the Noble [...] but Ioseph of Ar [...] mathea? Will you find any more among the Learned Pharisies but Nicodemus?

R.

Truly not that I remember,

C.

Was it then thinke you a good argumēt they vsed against Christ? Doth any of the Rulers, or Scribes beleeue in Christ [...], but only this cursed people who knowes not the Law?

[Page]R.

No indeed.

C.

Bee not then moued with the like now. Oh, say the Papists, how many Learned men are of our Religion? Euery man naturall, in things pertaining to eternall life is [...], without a minde, Titus 3.3 till hee bee illuminate by grace: were he in naturall reason as quick as Aristotle, or in policie as Achitophel, he is but a starke foole till he bee taught of God: and therefore maruell no more that Learned Iesuites cannot know the truth, then when you heare that Learned Iewish Rabbins could not know Christ when he was among them.

R.

The Lorde then make vs thankfull for reuealing the way of life vnto vs, which is hid from so many in the World.

[Page]C.

Amen good Lord. And now for your further confirmation consider these testimonies I haue subioyned.

How the Fathers of the first ages point out Antichrist to come, and warne vs to looke for him at Rome.

Let no man seduce you by any meanes, for the day of the Lord shall not come vnlesse there come first a reuolt, [...], and the man of sinne bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition, which is an aduersarie, and extolled aboue all which is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himselfe as if he were God 2. Thessal. 2.3. Now the mysterie of iniquitie worketh, only he which now withholdeth will let it till he be taken out of the way.

[Page]C.

What thinke you of this Prophecie.

R.

I haue heard that to bee a falling away from the Roman Empire.

C.

No (Sir) the most iudicious, both Ancient, and Recent, expound it to bee a falling from the faith: As for the Ancients see Augustine de Ciuitate Dei [...]ib. 20. Cap. 19. Nulli dubium est eum de Antichristo ista dixisse For the Recents see Aquinas on this place.

R.

But granting it were so, yet this Prophecie is of one single man and cannot be meant of the Popes of Rome.

C.

No that is also a silly shift: when your Church-men say that the Pope is Christ Vicar, doe they meane any one single Pope?

[Page]R.

No, but the state or succession of Popes.

C.

Very well, and when wee say that the Pope is Christ opposite, doe wee vnderstand this man, or that man? no truly, but the whole state or regiment of them since their defection.

R.

But I see not how this Prophecie either toucheth the Pope, or the Church of Rome; and if it bee meant of any defection from the faith, it is meant of Luther, Caluine, and such as haue fallen from the Church of Rome.

C.

Compare another Prophesie of the same Apostle concerning the s [...]me purpose, and see how he expounds himselfe.

R.

Where is that?

C.

Here are his wordes 1. Timothie [Page] 4.1. Now the Spirit speakes euidently, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, attending to Spirits of errour, and Doctrine of Deuils: and marke how hee subioynes some particular points of their doctrine which shall come in with the Apostasie, to wit, that they shall forbid mariage, and command abstinence from meates, which God hath created to bee receiued with thankesegiuing. VVhat thinke you now, whether doth this touch them or vs?

R.

I know it cannot concerne you, for you forbid none to marie that cannot containe.

C.

Neither can this Prophesie bee cast backe vpon Heresies of the Marcionits, and others neerest the Apostles dayes, as [Page] the Iesuites doe to shift this Prophesie from themselues: for the Apostles saye, this Apostasie shall fall out in the la [...]t times: And the former Prophesie saies, that the Roman Empire must first bee taken out of the way, then shall the Apostasie worke to the height: as indeede it fell out that the seat of the Empire being translated to Constantinople, Chr [...]so [...]t [...] 2. Thes. 2. hem. 4. the Emperour decreased, the Bishop of Rome more and more increased, so that it is not meant of Heretikes neerest the Apostles dayes, but of such as shall rise after the decay of the Roman Empire. And who tell mee hath growne by the▪ decay of the Empire? None but the Pope; he hath his Imperial seat, his robes, his crowne, his rents, so that the [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] Emperor, except the name & the double Eagle, hath littl [...] or nothing of the Empire. And therfore Aquinas, who saw what was the meaning of that place, moues the doubt: What shall wee answere (saies he) seeing the Roman Empire is decayed, how can we denie bu [...] Antichrist is come? To this he answeres, we must say the Roman Empire is not away, only the Temporall power therof is changed into a Spiritual: what thinke you, is there not good stuffe here?

R.

In truth I thinke their cause the longer I heare you the weaker.

C.

So may you. But yet more to confirme you consider how the Ancient expound this Prophesie, and still cast it vpon the Church of Rome. Irenaeus [Page]Lib. 5. speaking of the number of the beasts name six hundreth threescore and sixe, albeit hee plainly shew it is not his diuination, but the accomplishment of the Prophesie which must finde out the number of the name, and albeit he make mention also o [...] other names, as E [...]an, and Teitan, yet sayes hee sed & [...] valde verisimile est. Tertullian. contra Marcion. Babylon apud Ioannem Romanae vrbis figura est, proinde magnae, regno superbae & sanctorum Dei debellatricis. Tertullian. de resurrectione carnis, see how hee expounds that part of the Prophesie, Only he who now withholds, let till hee be taken out of the way. Donec de medio fiat quis nisi Romanus status? c [...]ius abscisio in decem reges Anti-christum[Page]superinducet, & tunc revelabitur iniquus &c. Ambrose in 2. Thessal. 2. Non prius veniet dominus quam regni Romani defectio fiat, & appareat Antichristus qui interficiet sanctos reddita Romanis libertate sub suo tamen nomine. Et iterum. Post defectum Romani imperij appariturus est Antichristus. Cyril Cateches. 15. Veniet Antichristus quum impleta fuerint tempora Romani imperij. Hilarius contra Auxentium: Anne dubium est in eis esse futurum, Is there any doubt, but Antichrist shall sit in these same temples, and houses, which now ye loue and honour: Item, Sub specie Euangelicae praedicationis Christo cō trarius erit, ibid. This proues, that in the iudgement of Hilarius, Antichrist should bee a professor, [Page] yea, euen a Preacher of the truth: Primasius in Apocal. cap. 16. Tunc cadet Babylon, quā do nouissimè potestatem persequendi sanctos acceperit; Here also it is cleare that he meanes not old Rome. Do not these places make cleare, that the Apostasie here prophesied should come af [...]er the decay of the Romane Empire? and since themselues can not deny but the temporal Empire is decayed, how then can they deny the Apostasie?

R.

I thinke iudeede these places make it cleare: specially that which Ambrose hath wherein I marke these thinges. That first the Empire should decaie and then Antichrist should appeare, and he should restore libertie to the Romans, but vnder his owne [Page] name, and not vnder the Emperours name.

C.

You haue marked that very wel: for the Pope hath made the name of Romanes more famous then the Emperours did, and vnder colour of a spirituall Empire, hath made all churche subiect vnto the Church of Rome, and from his name to bee named Papists. Hieron in Daniel, 11. Antichristus simulabit se ducem foe deris, hoc est, [...]egis, & Testamenti Dei. And albeit the Prophesie of Antichrist was not so cleare to him, & others of these fathers also, as time hath made it to this age; yet expounding these words of the Apostle; He sits in the Temple of God, he saith, this is, Hierosolymis (vt quidam putant) vel in Ecclesiâ vt veriùs [Page]arbitramur. quaest. 11. ad Aglasiam. August. de Ciuit. Dei, lib. 20. cap. 19. Rectiûs putant alij dictum latinè, sicutest in Graeco: S [...]debit in Templum Dei, quasi ipse cum suis esset Ecclesia Dei. Theophilactus, Haymo, Lombardus, are of the same mind. The Iesuites of Rhemes hauing shewed how many fathers expound this Temple of Ierusalems Temple, at length distrusting it as a vaine opinion, they set downe this second as more true: That Antichrist, if euer he were of, or in the Church, shall be an Apostata, or runnegate out of the Church, and shall vsurpe vpon it by tyranny, and by challenging worship, religion, and gouernment thereof: so that he himselfe sh [...]ll bee adored in all the Churches of the world; this is to sit in the[Page]Temple of God; if any Pope euer [...]id so, or sh [...]ll do, then let the Ad [...]ersaries call him Antichrist. But indeede this their confession whereby they would cleare their Pope, doth plaine soile him: hee sits in the Church by profession, but is gone out of it by Apostasie, and yet vsurpes gouernment ouer it by tiranny; in euery Church he is adored as a God on ear [...]h, hauing power ouer the conscience, excommunicating all such from humane societie, as will not be subiect to him. What thinke you of that talke to giue to the Pope? Tu es alter Deus in terris.

R.

Who said that?

C.

It was said to him in the second L [...]erane Councell, by Christopher Marcellus.

[Page]R.

Good sooth it was shame to the flatterer, and a blame to the Pope if he blusht not when he heard it.

C.

Oh, but that is not the worst; his Canonists stile him their Lord God the Pope.

R.

Fie vpon that; will they commit such blasphemie?

C.

There are their owne words: Dic [...]re Dominum Deum nostrum Papam non pot [...]isse s [...]atuere, Extrau. Ioh. 22. cap. Cum inter &c. prout statuit, haereticum est. To say, that our Lord God the Pope might haue discerned otherwise, then he hath discerned is hereticall. And againe, that they make a God of him, these places may let you see: Si Papa suae, Dist. 40. cap. Si Papae, &c. & sraternae salutis negligens innumerabiles secum ducat cater [...]atim in Gehennam, huiusmodi[Page]culpam nullus mortalium praesum [...]t redarguere. And againe, Est instar sacrilegij disputare de factis Papae, It is sacriledge to dispute vpon any of the Popes deedes.Dist. [...]0. ca. Non nos in glosa, &c. Or otherwise it is to be said, Quod facta Papae excusantur vt homicidium Sampsonis, furta Hebraeorum, & adulterium Iacobi: That the euill deedes of the Pope are to be excused, as the selfe-murther of Sampson, the theft of the Hebrewes, the adulterie of Iacob. Is not this to make the Pope a lawlesse man?

R.

I think no lesse then you say.

C.

But what say you to this?Causa 25. quast. [...]. ca. Ideo, &c. Canonibus sacris authoritatem it a praestat vt se illis non subijciat: Hee in such sort giues authority to holy Scriptures, that hee [Page] is not subiect to it. And that as Christ did some things against the Law (as when hee touched the Leper) so the Pope may do some things against the Lawe.Summa Angelica de casibus Con. scientiae. D [...] [...]it Papa. And albeit we reade that Ba [...]a [...]m was rebuked of his owne Ass [...], by the which Asse our subiects, by Balaam our Prelates are signified. yet ought not that to be an example to our Subiects to reproue vs.

R.

Indeed I thinke it a meete comparison for him: Let him bee Balaam, and let such as hee rides vpon be Asses, as to mee I thanke God I am quit of him.

C.

Alway by these, and innumerable more testimonies it is euident, that hee is the lawlesse man that exaltes himself aboue all that is called God, and that [Page] his blinded captiues worshippe him as God. But wee will proceede to the rest of the testimonies. Greg. lib. 9. Epist. 30. Fiden [...]èr dico quòd quisquis se vniuersalem vocat sacerdotem, aut vocari de [...]iderat in elatione suâ, Antichristum praecurrit. What think you, doth not Gregorie heere blacke the faces of his successors with a visible note of Anti-christ? Who, but they are so called?

R.

They will say he speakes that of Iohn Bishop of Constantinople, who at that time vsurped this stile.

C.

Yea,Dis [...]. 99. ca. Ecce, &c. but when Eulogius Patriarch of Alexandria, gaue that same stile to Gregorie Bishop of Rome; hee did sharpely reprooue him for it. Recedant [Page]verba quae vanitatem instant, & charita [...]em vulnerant. But hee hath yet a clearer place: Rex superbiae propè est, & quod dici nesas est, sacerdotum et exercitus praeparatur, li. 4. Epist. 38. Sybilla sayes this King shal be [...],Oraculorum [...]ap. 8. that is White-headed, and shall be called by a name much like Pontus: Or otherwise [...], hauing many Heades or many Crownes: Here hee hath one marke from his head, an other from his name: both of these agree to the Bishoppe of Rome, who weareth solemnely on his head a white Myter of Siluer adorned with three Crownes and precious stones,Ibid. and in Latine is named Pontifex. And againe shee sayes, that the greatest terrour and furie of his Empire; [Page] and the greatest woe that he shall worke, shall bee by the bankes of Tyber.

How the fathers of the last ages declare that Antichrist is come, and point him out sitting at ROME.

The ninth hundred yeare, Thetgandus Episcopus Treuirensis Pontificem Romanum Antichristum, & lupum vocat, & Romam Babylonem: Cùm sis seruus seruorum, dominus dominantium esse contendis, libidine dominandi in praeceps [...]bis, quicquid tibilibet, licet, fucus (que), factus es Christianis. There hee calles the Bishop of Rome Antichrist, a Wolfe, a vsurper of domination, a deceiuer of Christ [...]ndome, and Rome he calles Babylon: And the like at that same time was testified [Page] by Guntherus Episcopus Coloniensis ad Nicolaum Pontificem Romanum. Tu pontificis personam praete fers, at tyrannum agitas, sub cultu pastoris lupu [...] sentimus, titulus parentem mentitur, tu te factis Iouem esse ostentas; quum sis seruus seruorum, dominus dominantium esse contendis. Epist. 3. Bernard saith, Bestia illa in Apocalypsi, cui datum est osloquens blasphemias, & bellum gerens cum sanctis, Petri cathedram occupat, tanquam leo paratus ad praedam. The beast spoken of in the Reuelation, hauing a mouth speaking blasphemies, and which Warres against the Saints, is now gotten into Peters Chaire, as a Lion prepared for his prey: What thinke yee of these words?

R.

What should I thinke? for [Page] my owne part I maruaile that the Pope did not burne Bernard for an hereticke.

C.

So you may: But heare yet mo [...]e. Io [...]chimus Abbas, who liued three hundred yeres since, saith Antichristus iamdudum natus est Romae, & altiùs extolletur in sede Apostolicá. Antichrist long since is borne in Rome, and shall bee aduanced yet higher in the Apostolicke seate. Franciscus Petrarcha Archdecon of Parma, who liued in the thousand three hundreth and fiftie yeare, Epist. 5.14, 17, 18, 19, &c. Compares the Pope to Iudas, who betrayed Christ with a kisse, his Clergie to the I [...]wes, who said to him, Aue Rex Iudaeorum: His Prelates to the Phari [...]ies, [...]ho in mockerie clothed him with Pu [...] ple,[Page]and after crucified him. And againe, Denie it now if thou canst? That thou art shee whom S. Iohn saw in the spirit sitting vpon many waters; Thou art shee and none other, that Babylon the mother of the whoredomes of the earth, drunken with the blood of the Martyrs of Iesus; thou art shee which hast made all Kings of the earth drunken with the Cups of thy poyson. In the thousand and three hundreth yeare, lib. 2. cap.5. In Synodo Reginoburgensi habita est haec oratio [...] quodam Episcopo contra pontificem Romanum. Sub Pontificis maximi titulo, pastoris pelle, lupum sae [...]is [...]mum (nisi caeci simus) sentimus: Romani slamines arma in omnes habent Christianos, audendo, fallendo, & bella ex bellis serendo: magni facti oues trucidant,[Page]occidunt pacem, concord [...]am terris depellunt, intestina bella, domesticas seditiones ab inferis eliciunt, indiès magis ac magis omnium vires debilitant, vt omnium capitibus insultent, omnes deuorent, vniuersos in seruitutem redigant, &c. Ingentia loquitur, quasi verò Deus esset: noua consilia sub pectore volutat, vt nouum sibi constituat imperium, leges commutat, suas sancit: contamin [...]t, diripit, spoliat, fraudat, occidit perditus ille homo, quem Antichristum vocare solent, in cuius fronte co [...]tumeliae nomen scriptum est: Deus sum, errare non possum: in templo Dei sedet; longè, late (que), dominatur. In the thousand and foure hundreth yeare, lib. 1. cap. 4. Iohannes vicesimus tertius, wrote vnto the Oriental Church an Epistle, declaring [Page] that there was but one Christian Church onely, and that hee was head thereof, and the Vicar of Christ: The Grecians wrote backe to him this answere. Potentiam tuam summam erga sub [...]itos tuos firmiter credimus, superbiam tuam summam tolerare non possumus, auaritiam expl [...]re non valemus: Diabolus tecum quia Dominus nobiscum. Thy great power ouer thy Subiects we firmly beleeue, thy surpassing pride we can not tolerate, thy auarice wee are not able to satisfie: the diuell is with thee, for the Lord is with vs.

R.

God be mercifull to vs.

C.

Amen. Now (Sir) I must craue your licence, for some friends are attending mee, with whome I appointed to meete this houre.

[Page]R.

Good reason, but before you goe, I would fain he are an answer to two questions, which commonly they demand.

C.

Which are those?

R.

The one is: Where was your Church before Luther? the other: Are all our fathers damned?

C.

With a very good will. But if you please, deferre the conference concerning them till to morrow.

R.

Let it be so, now the Lord bee with you.

[Page]

THE FIFTH DAYES CONFERENCE. Wherein the common question of the Aduersaries is aunswered: Where was your Church before LVTHER?

C.

NOw (Sir) you remember you propoūded two questions to me yesternight.

R.

It is very true, and I would gladly heare your answere to [Page] them, for▪ my further resolution: What thinke you then, because you call Papistrie heresie, are you of that minde that all our fathers are damned, & that no Papist can be saued?

C.

I am not to iudge of mens persons: many are called Papists who know not what Papistrie meanes, and many liue Papists who dare not die Papists, or if so they doe, they know not what they doe. But Papistrie it selfe, I affirme it is a pernicious doctrine, yea as the Apostle cals it, a doctrine of diuels, killing the Soules of them who beleeue it: But this is the second of your questions, which we will reserue till the next day.

R.

Let it be so. What then say you to the first? Where was [Page]your Church before Luther?

C.

Euen where our doctrine was, sometime in one Countrie, sometime in an other, as it pleased God in his wise dispensati [...]n, who caries the light of his Gospell, as he doth the Sunne, [...]hrough the World, to illuminate Nations at s [...]uerall times therewith according to his will.

R.

That is a faire Generall; but will yee tell vs, who were these? What Countrie people? What Doctors, who taught as yee teach?

R.

Looke the Churches of Asia, Asricke, and of Europe, consider them as they were before the mysterie of iniquitie came to the hight, and you shal see that they all had the same doctrine, and forme of a Church [Page] that we haue in all substantiall points pertaining to Religion.

R.

But you are not able to name one before Luther, teaching in all things as he did.

C.

This is a peece of Sophistrie, whereby your deceiuers blind the ignorant.

R.

How so, should not the teachers of the truth agree in al things in one harmonie?

C.

I grant they should, and thanks be to God, they doe also in al substantial things which are Articles of our faith. But is this a good reason: because some Doctors in some opinions differ, whereof men may bee ignorant and saued neuerthelesse, that therefore these Doctors teach no truth, and their Churches are no true Churches?

[Page]R.

That seemes to bee hard indeed.

C.

You haue reason for you so to thinke: for in one age Vi [...]tor with the Church in the West was in a different opinion from Policrates, and the Churches of the East; and Ierome had his owne discordance with Augustine, against the exposition of the commandement, Thou shalt beare no false witnesse, in that question de mendacio: and the first Fathers of the Primitiue Church were Chiliasts; shall it thereupon follow, that because in this point, they taught not in all things as we doe, that therefore they were not a Church?

R.

It is no reason.

C.

Cyprian in the point of rebaptising, taught not as Cornelius; [Page] what of that? will it follow that hee was not a faithfull Pastor, or the Church of Carthage was not a true Church?

R.

It followes not indeed.

C.

Why then doe you vrge me to giue you one before Luther or Caluin, who in all points taught as we teach. The Doctors of the Church both ancient and recent, are men subiect to infirmities; for no man vpon earth, hath his vnderstanding perfect, whereof it comes to passe, that in some things one of them differs from an other: But as to the Articles of the faith, and substance of Christian religion, whereby comes saluation; sure it is Tertullian and Cyprian, Ambrose, A [...]gustine, Luther and Caluin haue all deliuered [Page] o [...]e doctrine, and did teach the way of God truly.

R.

The [...] you thinke the Fathers of the Primitiue Church were of your Religion.

C.

I think s [...] indeed, & hope to die in that same faith where [...] they liued and died.

R.

It would bee thought strange to heare that in Italie, that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church were of the Protestants Religion.

C.

No maruell it be strange there, where Truth is a stranger: but this answere was giuen you and them both, by a worthy Doctor of our Church and wee yet stand to it: Patres in maximis sunt nostri, in multis varij, [...]n minimis vestri. Such Fathers as haue written before vs, [Page] and you both in greatest things are ours, in many thinges are doubtfull, in smallest thinges they are yours.

R.

Well, I shall remember that (God willing): but in the dayes of Papistrie, wherewith you say the world was blinded, where was your Church?

C.

Answere me but an other question, and it shall resolue you.

R.

What is that?

C.

Your Doctors say, that when Antichrist shall come, the Church shall [...]lie to the desert, that is, as themselues expound it: The Church shall bee without publike state of regiment, Rhemists. Reuel. 12. and open free exercise of holy functions, neither shall it bee unknowne to the[Page]faithfull which follow it; as this day may bee seene the like by the Church of Romane Catholiques in many parts of England.

R.

What doth that helpe you?

C.

Very much: that which they themselues say, will bee done, wee say is done: Antichrist hath alreadie chased the Church to the wildernesse, and so oppressed it, that for a time it had no publike state of regiment, nor open free exercise of holy functions: yet was it not vnknowne to the faithfull that followed it, nor to the enemies that persecuted it, as this day may bee seene by the Church of Christian Catholikes in many parts of France.

R.

Will ye make that cleare, [Page] and I thinke you haue wonne much.

C.

What greater clearenesse can you craue? If this answere bee good to cleare the Popes Church, when they say it will bee obs [...]ured by Antichrist, and yet be: is it not as good to iustifie our Church, when we say it hath beene obscured by Antichrist, and yet was?

R.

The answere is good enough, only if you can, I would haue you qualifie it more particularl [...].

C.

There is not one age since the dayes of Christ vnto this day, wherein I can not point forth men, preaching and professing as wee doe: but because your doubt is specially of the time of Papistry, I will let you [Page] see it is a needlesse question for the Popes Church to demand of vs, where our Church then was? for they found vs alwaies in their teeth before euer Luther or Caluin was borne.

R.

Make that good.

C.

Reme [...]us a Popish Inquisitor,R [...]. cap. 27. who liued more then three hundred yeeres agoe, speaking of the poore men of Lyons, and calling them in contempt Valdenses, Leonistae, sayth they were more pernitious to the Church of Rome, then all other sects fo [...] three causes: First, because it hath beene of longer continuance: for some say this sect hath endured since the Apostles times. The second cause is, because it is more generall: for there is almost no land in the which this Sect doth not[Page]creepe. The third cause, for that all other sectes doe bring an horror with the hainousnesse of their blasphemies against God; but this Sect of Leonists hath a great shew of godlinesse, because they liue iustly before men, and beleeue all thinges well concerning God, and all the Articles which are contained in the Creede, onely they blaspheme & hate the Church of Rome. Now there is the testimony of an enemy making answer for vs, which may serue to stop the mouthes of all our enemies from demanding of vs any more, Where was your Church before Luther?

R.

I, but hee calles them a Sect, and saies they blasphemed the Church.

C.

So the Priests of the Iews called the Church of Christians, [Page] a Sect of Nazarits, Act. 24.5. What is that to the matter? yet he grants they are such a Sect, as first, had beene from the beginning: secondly, had beene in all Countries, & thirdly, was honest in lise, & sound in faith: saue onely that they helde the Church of Rome to be the whore of Ba [...]el. And that yet this preiudice which you haue conceiued of our Church may bee further remoued out of your mind; I pray you consider this: Think you not, that with good reason we may affirme that we are in communion with them, who haue taught the same doctrine that we teach? if our doctrine was in former ages, you will not deny that our Church was then also.

[Page]R.

That can not bee denied.

C.

Well then, if you please, name mee any controuersie of religion, concerning any Article of faith▪ betweene vs and the Papists thi [...] day, and you shall see that the ancient fathers take our part in it.

R.

That is strange, for they repose their chiefest strength & trust in the ancient fathers.

C.

Bragge what they will it is true, I say they may well boast in the drosse of fathers & decke their errors with it, but wee shall bring you their finest gold. Name you the controuersie, & you shall trie that which I say to bee a truth.

R.

There are so many controuersies among you, that I know not which of thē to name first.

[Page]C.

Then will it please you to take a view of these, which I haue gathered for my own priuate vse?

R.

With a very good will: let me see what they are.

C.

They are here in a little s [...]role, and I haue collected thē for my owne confirmation in the faith; for, as first of all I learned the way of saluation in the Scriptures, so finding that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church exponed the Scripturs, conformable to the doctrine of our teachers, I was greatly therin confirmed: for these are the two great proppes of our faith, which Vincentius giues vs against all heresie, cap▪ 2.

R.

You haue reason for you▪ for if your Doctrine be so warranted [Page] both by diuine authority of God in his word, and humane testimony of the best Doctors of the ancient Church, they are to bee iudged most vnworthy that make contradiction to you.

C.

Well, that I may bee as good as my word, there they are, I leaue them with you, that you may reade them at your owne leasure.

R.

I thanke you for them, and because I am not to tarrie in this Towne, let met haue (I pray you) a copie of them with mee, that I may reade thē at leasure.

C.

So long as you are in the Towne you may bee doing, otherwise, if occasion serue you not, as soone as I can prouide a [Page] copy of them for my self, I shall send you this to any place you please to appoint.

R.

Let it bee so, and I shall God willing put you in mind of it.

[Page]

THE SIXTH DAYES CONFERENCE. Wherein an other Question commonly obiected by the Aduersaries is answered: Seeing you cannot denie that your fathers were Papists, what thinke you, are they all damned or not? And if they be not damned, why may not we be of their Religion.

R.

WElcome yet (Sir) I see you are not wearie, to take paines with me.

[Page]C.

No in truth, it is no paine but pleasure vnto me, if by any meanes I may be an instrument to doe you good.

R.

I thanke you for it: Now what say you to our Question, Are all our fathers damned? Or [...]f not, may it not serue vs to be [...]f their Religion?

C.

That is but a subtile que [...]tion wher [...]by Iesuites drawe [...]imple people to a liking of Papistrie; because forso [...]t [...] some [...]f their f [...]thers liued, and dyed in it as they alledge.

R.

And why, thinke you it not a good reason?

C.

Not indeede [...] for some times I find GOD forbids his people to be as their fathers were: Z [...]ch 1. where our Fath [...]rs haue forsaken the Religion of the f [...]rst [Page] Fathers wee should not follow them.

R.

That was sufficiently cleared in our first Conference.

C.

It was so, yet you force mee to remember it. But now before I come to the point: I will tell you a prettie Storie I haue read concerning this matter.

R.

Let mee heare it I pray you.

C.

I read that a certaine Duke of Frisland named Raboldus, about the yeare of our LORD nine hundreth, being perswaded (as hee pretended) to embrace Christianitie, as he went to bee baptized and had the one of his feet in the water, he demanded of the Bishops If all his Forefathers were damned? the Bishops [Page] answered more rashly then wisely, they were all damned: whereupon the Duke pulled backe his feete againe, saying, Then I will also bee damned with them. Thinke you this a good answere?

R.

No indeede I thinke it a mad answere.

C.

Yet the same is the poyson wherewith your Iesuits subtilly infect the hearts of simple ones, that they should rather choose to be damned with their Fathers th [...]n saued without them.

R.

But will you say to vs as these Bishops said to him, That all our Fathers are damned?

C.

Nay that wil I not; iudgement of election and reprobation pertaines to the Lord, their [Page] persons I leaue: but the doctrine of Papistrie I am sure is deadly, and bringes damnation to the soules of men.

R.

Then you will not giue iudgment of their persons.

C.

No indeed: for, as to their persons▪ I know many this day are so called, who know not the Doctrine of Papistrie; and, as to them who haue liued before vs, howsoeuer in their life they professed Papistrie, yet in their death they were forced to seeke comfort in our Religion.

R.

That is strange that you will say many of our Fathers died in your Religion.

C.

Yet it is true, as I will let you see by a little forme of visitation of the sicke, vsed at that time when Antichrists darkenesse [Page] was greatest, to wit, in the eleuenth hundred yeare, for so the Church-men spake to the sicke: Fateris te [...]am malè vixisse vt meritis tuis pae [...] aeterna [...]ebe [...] tur? Doest thou not acknowledge that thine euill life d [...] serues eternall d [...]ath? The diseased answered, E [...]iam, ye [...]: The other▪ still inquired, Paenitet [...]e horum? Repentest thou th [...]se sinnes? The other answered Etiam, yea I doe: still he inquire [...], Credis quò [...] pro te mortu [...]s [...]t dominus Iesus? Beleeuest thou that Iesus died for thee, and that thou canst not bee saued but by his death? The other answeres, I doe so indeede. Then concludes the Preacher this way: Age ergò, dum in te superest anima, in h [...]c solâ mortetotam fuluciam tuam constitue,[Page]in nullâ aliâ re habe as fiduciam, huic mortito [...]um te committe, hac solate totum contegne, hâc morte tetotum inuolue. Et si dominus deus voluerit te iudicare, dic, Domine mortem domini nostri obijcio inter me & tuum iudicium, aliter tecum non contendo. Goe to then, so long as thy Soule is in thee, in this onely death of Christ place thou thine whole confidence, tr [...]st not in any other thing, commit thy selfe altogether vnto this death, with this death only couer thy selfe, in it onely inuolue thy selfe: And if the Lord God will iudge thee, then say to him, O Lord, I haue nothing to lay betw [...]ene me and thy iudgement, but the death of the Lord Iesus, otherwise I contend not with thee. [Page] See you not here first, that they warned their people to prouide for themselues so long as they are in the body, and feede them not with a vaine hope, as the Romish Doctors doe their people: For the present they send them to a place they call Purgatorie, but promise to bring them againe out of it; they first suffering paines there, and either themselues, or their frinds making due payment for them on Earth.

R.

In good sooth that is a comfortlesse, and (I may say) a cousning kind of doctrine.

C.

Wel, see you not againe a renouncing of all other merites; and of all satisfactions to bee made by suffering the paines of Purgatorie or otherwise. And [Page] thirdly see you not that the Pastor teacheth, and the people professeth a sure confidence, & no dubitation, in Christs bloud onely.

R.

I see that clearely.

C.

Then I say these men might well die w [...]th the name of Papist [...], but they died not with the doctrine of Papists: for they renounced all me [...]ites, both their own, and any others, and onely rested vpon the meri [...]es of Christ.

R.

But what will you say of them who haue died with all the opinions of Papistrie?

C.

I will answere that as Cyprian answered the like when it was demanded of him. An damnat [...] sunt maiores nostri, qui hun [...] vel illum articulum non intellexerunt? [Page] Were all our Fathers damned who vnderstood not this, or that Article of faith? he answered, Potens est Dominus misericordiâ suá indulgentiam dare, non tamen q [...]ia semel erratum est, ideo semper errandum est. God is able of his great mercy to giue indulgence, but yet there is no reason, that wee should alway [...]s [...]rr [...], because they once did erre.

R.

In truth that is a very modest answere.

C.

But heare you what further he saith: Si quis ex Antecessoribus nostris, vel ignoranter, vel simpliciter non hoc obseruanit, & tenuit quod nos Dominus exemplo suo docuit, potest simplicitatieius de indulgentiâ Domini venia concedi; nobis vero non poterit ignosci,[Page]quia à Domino admoniti & instructi sumus; If any of our forefathers, either of ignorance, or simplicity hath not holden and obserued that which the Lord hath taught vs, to doe by his example, there may bee mercie granted to his simplicity out of Gods indulgence: but we cannot be forgiuen, who now are otherwise instructed & admonished by the Lord.

R.

That answer I see is more sharp, and yet most reasonable; many things are excusable in the night, that are not tolerable in the day: The seruant that knows his M [...]sters will, and do [...]h it not, is worthy of double stripes.

C.

And I am glad you see it, and I would many more had their eyes open to see it, who [Page] thinke Papistry now tolerable in the dayes of light, as it was in the dayes of darkenesse: it was a fault then, for euen the seruāt who knowes not his Masters will shall be stricken; but it is a double fault now, for hee, who knowes his Masters will, and does the contrary, shall haue double s [...]ripes.

R.

Then I see you will not giue out, iudgement vpon the persōs of Papists, whether they bee saued or damned.

C.

Indeed I will not, and that for two causes: first, because, (as I haue said) many are Papists by name, which are no Papists: some of ignorance, some of vaine glory, some of policy to get themselues the more credite. And as to these who are [Page] infected indeed with the heresies of Papistrie; yet is it vncertain if they shall so continue, for the Lord is ma [...]uellous in working with such as belong to his election, that howsoeuer for the pr [...]sent wee see them in sinne and ignorance, ye [...] know wee not what they will be [...] so many secret wayes [...]th the Lord in time of sickn [...]sse, yea, in the very howre of d [...]ath to draw the h [...]arts of m [...]n toward [...] himselfe, which are hid from vs, that it w [...]re but presumption to iudge of an other mans saluation or reprobation.

R.

Indeed I commēd you, for I thinke you speak with that sobriety which becom [...] a christiā.

C.

And yet whatsoeuer I haue said concerning the persons [Page] of Papists, there is further to bee saide of Papistrie it selfe: that it is a doctrine so full of heresies, so directly contrary to the doctrine of the Gospell, that I dare say, a man beleeuing all the points of Papistrie, and perseuering in them [...]o the end without repentance cannot bee saued.

R.

Now that is the point, & I pray you make it cleare.

C.

It is cleare by these places following, which will shew you that Papistrie is a doctrine of Diuels, a plague of God, and a iust punishment laied on reprobate men for their sinnes, and a forerunner of the wrath to come.

R.

Good sooth I quake to heare this.

[Page]C.

You shall see them al particularly qualified: and first there is a Prophesie made by the Apostle of the defection which was to come, in these words; Now the spirite speakes euidently, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giuing heed to the spirites of error & doctrine of Diuels: which speake lies in hipocrisie, hauing their conscience burned with an hote yron, forbidding to marrie, and commanding to abstaine from meates, &c. Perceiue you not here, that the doctrine which forbids mariage and commands abstinence from meates, is called a doctrine of diuels?

R.

Very well, but that is meant of heretikes, which were soone after the Apostles daies, [Page] as Ebio [...]its, Marcionits, &c.

C.

Nay, that is a sillie shift, for he saieth, these teachers shal come in the latter times; and the departure from the faith, wherof hee prophesieth, was not to come till the fall of the Roman Empire: but in the daies of Ebion, Marcion, &c. the Roman Empire was in great glorie.

R.

But if that bee meant of any Apostasie in the later times it is of your sect (will they say) that hath fallen frō the church of Rome.

C.

It cannot be meant of vs: for wee neithe [...] forbid mariage, nor command abstinence from meates for conscience sake.

R.

That is verie true: but may not the Church for some causes command abstinencie frō meats?

[Page]C.

Yes, for Prayer and deuotion, and that for a time onely, but not because any meate is vncleane, or one meat is holier then an other▪ as they thinke their Chartrouse Monkes more holy that neuer eate flesh, then others are:Durand. lib. 6. cap. de alijs ieiu [...]ijs. and why forsooth? because flesh and not fish was accursed in the daies of Noah.

R.

Indeed that seemes to be somewhat superstitious.

C.

Well, I will enter into no more particulars concerning this question. It is cleare, these are two points of Papisticall doctrine, called by the Apostle doctrine of Diuels; So I proceede, There shall arise false Christs, and false Prophets, and shall shew great signes and wonders, so that if it were possible they should deceiue [Page]the very elect, Mat. 24.24. The comming of Antichrist by the working of Satan with all power, and signes, and lying wonders, 2. Thess. 2.9. And in a [...] deceiuablenesse of vnrighteousnes among them that perish, because they receiued not the truth [...]hat they might bee saued, ibid. ver. 10. And therefore God shall send them strong delusions, that they should belieue lies, verse 11. That all they might be damned, which belieued not the truth, but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse, ver. 12. All that dwell vpon the earth shall worship the beast, whose names are not written in the Book [...] of life of the Lamb which was slain from the beginning. Reuel. 13.8. And he deceiued them which dwelt on earth by the signes which were permitted him to doe, ver. 14. If [Page]any man worshippe the beast, &c. the same shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God, and shall bee tormented in fire and brimstone. Reu. 14.9.10. Goe out of Babel my people, that yee bee not partakers of her sinnes, and receiue not of her plagues. These places make cleare vnto you, that it is onelie the reprobate, worldly-minded called therefore dwellers on the earth, whose names are not written in the book of life, children of perdition; it is only they (I say) who are fullie and finally deceiued with the spirit of Antichrist, and that in Gods righteous iudgement are giuen ouer to belieue lies, because they receiued not the loue of the truth: What thinke yee of these?

[Page]R.

In truth I am astonished to heare these fearefull places.

C.

This is yet further cleared by Augustine, who expounding that place of the Apostle 2. Thes. 2. Adoccultu [...] Dei iudicium pertinet quòd impij ab Antichristo feducuntur: It pertaines to Gods secret iudgement that the wicked are seduced by Antichrist: Seducentur qui seduci merebuntur, pro eo quòd dilectionem veritatis non receperunt. They shall bee deceiued who haue deserued to bee deceiued, because they receiue not the loue of the truth: and yet more feareful is the sentence, which he subioynes, Iudicati seducentur, & seducti iudicabuntur: when they are iudged they shall be deceiued, and because they were deceiued they [Page] shal be iudged ouer againe: they are first iudged by the iudgement of God, secretly iust, and iustly secret, whereby now hee punisheth the sinnes of men, deliuering them to the Spirit of errour, that receiued not the loue of his truth: and because they were deceiued they shall be iudged againe in that last and manifest iudgment to bee made by Christ Iesus, who was vniustly iudge himselfe, but most iustly shall iudge the World. This Commentarie makes it cleare, that Papistrie is not onely a sinne, but a present punishment of God inflicted on man for sinne, specially for contempt of the Gospell; and a procurement of that fearefull wrath that is to come, which if it were [Page] considered, men would not esteeme Papistrie so indifferent a thing as they doe▪

R.

God be mercifull to them who yet are blinded with these errours, and Lord make mee thankefull who hath begunne to deliuer mee from that darkenesse; the Lord illuminate mee more and more with his light, that I may know his way, and may receiue grace to follow it.

C.

Amen: But now I remember, I promised before to declare vnto you, that Papistrie impugnes both the Person and offices of Christ, and so in effect denies that Iesus the Sonne of Marie is the Christ.

R.

That is most strange.

C.

It is indeede, and yet it is true, as you shal [...] perceiue if you [Page] goe through the principall Articles of our faith. And first to begin at Christ person, that of many wee may touch a few, We beleeue that Iesus Christ is both God and man.

R.

And who denies that?

C.

You know that old Arriu [...] denied his Diuinitie, and now Papistes denie his humanitie.

R.

How can you say that?

C.

Because they worshippe and adore a Christ, who is not come in the flesh: To cleare this, I pray you consider that Canon of the Apostles, 1. Ioh. 4. Beloved, beleeue not euery spirit, but trie the spirits if they be of God: because many false Prophets are gone out into the World. In this the spirit of God is knowne; Euerie [Page]spirit that confesseth Iesus Christ to haue come in the flesh is of God. There is a golden rule for vs and them both, and marke there the opposition, Euerie spirit that saith otherwise, is the spirit of Antichrist.

R.

Let it be so: What is that against Papists?

C.

Yea, it is against them directly, for the word teacheth vs to worship Christ, Conceiued of the holy Ghost, horne of the Virgine Marie: But they worshippe Christ created by a Priest, not conceiued by the holy Ghost; a Christ whose fleshe is made of Breade by Transubstantiation, whereby they destroy the Article of his Incarnation.

R.

But they say it is the same Christ who was borne of the Virgin Marie.

[Page]C.

If it bee the same Christ, then must they grant that his flesh is not created of bread: for that Christ borne of the Virgin Marie was made flesh of the seed of Dauid by the operation of the Holy Ghost, but this Christ whom they worship in the Masse hath his flesh made of bread by Transubstantiation, and they are not ashamed to call their Priest for this worke Creatorem sui Creatoris, a Creatour of his Creatour.

R.

But saith not our Lord that the Bread giuen in the Sacrament is his Bodie?

C.

Yea indeede, and so wee beleeue it is: for it is no naked nor common bread that hoe giues vs there the giuing of that bread, It is [...], the [Page] Communion of his blessed bodie.

R.

But if it bee Bread, how can it be his body?

C.

It is needlesse to demaund how? Since he hath said it; but I beleeue it is his body.

R.

But may not Christ of his omnipotent power transubstantiate bread into his body?

C.

And I pray you, may not Christ of his omnipotent power, and truth, giue mee his body, except hee turne bread into his bodie?

R.

I dare not say so.

C.

And you haue reason: The Papists charge vs that wee denie Gods omnipotencie, but the fault is theirs; they denie his omnipotencie, when they say hee can not giue vs his body [Page] in the Sacrament, except hee make his body of bread. Doe they not here limit the Lord?

R.

Well I see it is great wisedome to ponder euery thing we beleeue in the ballance of Gods word, I wold not haue thought there had beene suc [...] [...]lasphemie against the person of Christ in that Doctrin of Transubstantiation as now I see that Canon of the Apostle declares plainly.

C.

You may ioyne to this another testimonie of the Apostle Hebrewes 13. Iesus Christ yesterday, this day, and the same for euer.

R.

What will that make against them?

C.

That they are blinde to worship a Christ this daie, who was not a Christ yesterday: for [Page] you know they grant themselues that before consecration the bread is not Christ.

R.

It is true indeed.

C.

Then you may perceiue it is but an artificiall Christ made by man whom they worshippe, and not [...]he true Christ. Thus you see how they are iniurious to his person, for the which cause I said to you, that Papists by necessitie of consequence, denie Iesus the sonne of Marie to bee the Christ. Now to his Offices, they are all comprised vnder the name Christ, for he is the anoynted King, Prophet, and Priest of his Church.

R.

And they will grant all that vnto you.

C.

I know in word they will, but in effect they take his Offices [Page] from him?

R.

How can that be?

C.

You shall see how: what thinke you is the office of a Prophet?

R.

To teach.

C.

You say verie well, and for this cause Christ is called the great Prophet raised vp among his brethren: And the great Angell of the counsell of God, who came into the World to reueile perfectly vnto the Church the will of God concerning mans saluation, and Gods worship: so that now once for all God hath spoken to vs in these last dayes by his sonne, and we haue not to expect from any other any further declaration of his will.

R.

I thinke no man wil denie that.

[Page]C.

You shall heare how it is denied, if first I make the point more clear vnto you: you know that the father proclaimed from Heauen, first at Iordan, then at mount Tabor, This is my welbeloued sonne in whom I am well pleased, heare him. See you not here how we are plainly commaunded to learne Gods will concerning our Saluation from the Sonne?

R.

Yea I see that, and it is good reason.

C.

Then if you will come and heare what the Son saies, you shal see that as the Father sends vs to the Sonne, so the Sonne sends vs to the Scriptures: if we would haue eternall life search the Scriptures, and he witnesseth plainely Iohn 17.8. The wordes [Page]which thou gauest mee, I gaue them, meaning to his Disciples. Where againe if you looke to the Disciples words: The Scripture (sayes Saint Paul) is able to make the man of God perfect, and therefore hee protests Act. 20 that he taught nothing but Moses and the Prophets, and yet that hee had deliuered to them the whole counsell of God. See you what a comfortable harmonie is here: The Father bids vs heare the Sonne; the Sonne protests the wordes the Father gaue him, hee gaue to his Disciples; and both of them sends vs to the Scripture, as conteining the whole counsell of God concerning our Saluation.

R.

I see all that clearly.

C.

Then what spirit are they [Page] led with that dare say, It had beene good for the Church the Scripture had neuer beene.

R.

Who dare say that?

C.

I haue heard with mine eares defenders of Papistrie say it: and the positions of their owne Doctors no lesse blasphemous are extant to bee seene: Lectio Scripturae non, [...]antùm est invtilis, sed pernitio samultis modis; the reading of Holy Scripture is not only vnprofitable; but pernicious. And therefore they wil not let the people read nor serch the Scripture, though Christ commanded: so to do [...]: and instoade of Scripture they intrude on the Church their owne decrees, and other traditions, which they make of equal authoritie with the Scripture. [Page] Thus you see how they take away Christs Propheticall office. Now to come to his Priestly office: you know the Priests office was twofold, first hee ought to sacrifice for the people, & next to pray for them.

R.

And they acknowledge both these, that Christ hath offered himselfe in a propitiatory sacrifice for our sinnes, and that hee still makes intercession for v [...] in heauen.

C.

I, but they so acknowledge it, that in both these offices they ioyne others with Christ, and so make him not a full and perfect Sauiour of his people by himselfe, but a halfe-Sauiour in part.

R.

I vnterstand not that.

C.

I shall make it cleare to [Page] you. There is the testimony of th [...] Word concerning the sufficiency of the merite of Christs bloud. The bloud of Christ his sonne clenseth vs from all sinne,

R.

They will not be against that.

C.

But they are when they make this distinction, that principally Christs bloud clenseth from sinne▪ but secondarily there must be other things with it to clens [...] sinne: as works of satisfaction in this life, and fire of Purgatorie in the life to come. By these also according to their own [...] doctrine▪ sinne is clensed.

R.

For my own part I would alwaies: reserue to Christ his owne glorie, which I know hee will not giue to any other▪

C.

You haue reason for you▪ [Page] and you shall thinke it so much the more if you consider with me these two testimonies.

R.

What are those?

C.

The first is Heb. 1.3. That Christ by himselfe hath made purgation of our sinnes.

R.

What will you gather of that place?

C.

A most necessary obseruation for clearing this controuersie, to wit, that the purging power of sinne is person [...]ll to Christ, he hath done it, by himselfe▪ the vertue and benef [...] of i [...] hee communicates to others that repent and belieue, bou [...]e meriting power, by which God is reconciled▪ and his iust [...]c [...] satisfied, he transfers not, n [...]ither to any mans person nor any other thing beside.

[Page]R.

Surely, according to my vnderstanding that is a truth, wherin euery Christian should rest, for it is most comfortable to the conscience, since wee are not [...]bl [...], neith [...]r in whole nor in part to satisfie for our owne sinnes.

C.

It is so indeed, and that you may bee the more confirmed, will you looke how the Iesuites who [...] the light, because it conuinceth them of darkenesse, in [...]translating this place, leaue out t [...]is word By him self [...]: they, say he makes purgation of sinnes, but passe by this word, by himself, looke you their owne translation.

R.

I se [...] ind [...]ed they haue it not [...]n their tra [...]slation, but is it I pray you in the Greeke text?

[Page]C.

Yea forsooth if you can read it, these are the words, [...].

R.

In truth this one place makes all their doctrine, concerning the supplement of Christs merits, iustly to be suspected: for since he hath made the purgation of our sinnes by himselfe, what should we looke that they are to bee purged by any other?

C.

You reason well.

R.

I speake as I think: it is either pittiful ignorāce, that they see not the truth, or their wilful malice that they dare mutilate so cleare a place of holy Scripture, leauing it out of their Bible, because it [...]akes against t [...]ē.

C.

But now take in with this [Page] the other testimony of holy Scripture, whereof I spake. you haue it Heb. 7. ver. 25. Christ is able to saue perfectly ( [...]) all that come vnto God by him.

R.

I see that is also a comfortable place.

C.

So it is indeed: for as the first makes you see that Christs meriting power is personall, & in himselfe, not transf [...]rred to any other▪ so this makes you see it is perfect: hee hath done the worke of our saluation in his owne person, and hee hath done it perfectly: What more can you craue?

R.

Truly I craue no more.

C.

Away then with these rotten dregges of Papistrie, that teach vs to depend vpon other merites, & vpon an other bloud [Page] (as I shewed you the first day) besides the merits of the bloud of Christ.

R.

For my own part I think neuer to leane to them, but will rest vpon that onely perfect sacrifice of Christ offered on the Crosse for my sinnes.

C.

If you abide there, you are vpon the sure foundation; and remember you must renounce all other sacrifices, which derogate from the perfection & sufficiency of that one sacrifice of Christ.

R.

I will indeed▪

C.

Then for your confirmation marke these places. Christ in the end of the world hath appeared once to put away sinne by the sacrif [...]e of himselfe. Heb. 9.26. Christ was once offered to take [Page]away the sins of many, Heb. 9.28. Wee are sanctified by the offering of the body of Iesus Christ once, Heb. 10.10. This man after he had offered one sacrifice for sinnes, sits foreuer at the right hand of God. Heb. 10.12. With one offering hath he [...]onsecrated for euer them that are sanctified. Heb. 10.14. where remission of sinnes is, there is no more offering for sin, Heb. 10.18. Christ needed not daily (as these high Priests) to offer vp sacrifice, first for his owne sinnes, and then for the peoples: for that did hee once, when he offered vp himselfe, Heb. 7.27. without shedding of blood, is no remission. Heb. 9.22. Perceiue you not here that the Apostle repeating this so oft, that Christ was once offered, for taking away our sinnes, destroyeth all other pretended [Page] sacrifices for sinne, and specially that sacrifice of the Masse, which they say is a propitiatorie sacrifice for the sinnes of the quicke and the dead.

R.

Truely the places are so plaine, that very children may vnderstand them, and I would God that these poore people, who of a blind mind dote after Masses, thinking by it to gette the pardon of their sinnes, had this benefite of Gods word, as you haue it, that so by the light of it they might come to the knowledge of the truth.

C.

And I wish the same from my heart, But now to confirm you yet further, I pray you mark how blasphemous and deceitfull a thing their Masse is. First, is not this a mockerie of GOD [Page] the Father, To desire him to accept his owne Sonne: Is Christ out of the fauour of his Father? said he not; He is my Son in whom I am well pleased? shall a mortal & miserable sinful Priest be a Mediatour, or Peacemaker betweene the Father and the Sonne, praying the Father that he would accept his Sonne, and send downe an Angell to take vp his bodie into Heauen?

R.

Fie vpon it: It is a vile blasphemie.

C.

Secondly, see you not how it inverts Gods ordinance? for where hee hath ordained a Sacrament, wherein God offers and giues his Sonne to vs; they haue changed it into a sacrifice, wherein they offer vp the Son to the Father.

[Page]R.

I see that also▪

C.

Thirdly, Is it not an iniurious thing to Christ, to say that any can offer him vp to God, but himselfe?

R.

It is inde [...]de: for as no other Sacrifice can satisfie Gods iustice, so no other sacrificer can bee worthie to offer him but himselfe, as is cleare out of your former Testimonies:

C.

Fourthly, Is it not a deceiuing of the people, to say that an vnbloudie Sacrifice (such as they say the Masse is) can bee propitiatorie to obtaine remission of sinnes?

R.

It is indeed, and expresly against the Word of God you haue alledged, Without shedding of bloud there is no remission: they grant themselues that in the [Page] Masse there is no shedding of bloud, and how then can it giue pardon or remission of sinnes?

C.

Well then, since by this you see how they derogate frō Christs sacrifice, which is the first part of Christes priestly office, I will now let you see how they also cut away the other, namely, his intercession. Marke that place of the Apostle, There is one God, and one Mediator of God and Man, the Man Christ Iesus.

R.

They haue a distinction for that, and say, there is but one Mediator of redemption, but for Intercession many.

C.

But will you consider the place; and you shall see where the Apostle sayes, there is but one Mediator, he is speaking of [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] Intercession and praying, and so his meaning must be, There is one Mediator of Intercession: read the place and see.

R.

I see it is so indeed.

C.

Now with it wil you but ioyne this place of Augustine, Qui pro omnibus interpellat pro quo autem nullus, Cont. Epist. Parme [...]. l. 2. cap. 8, is verus & vnicus mediator est: He that interceeds for al, for whom none interceedes, is the onely true Mediator. And there hee sayes it should bee a great absurdity, if Paul were called a Mediator, for so there should be many Mediators of Intercession.

R.

But should not Christians interceede one of them for an other, as wee are commanded, One of you pray for an other.

[Page]C.

They should indeed: but you must vnderstand, that this and the like precepts are for Christians here militant on earth in one communion, wherin alike one of them is bound to helpe an other by their praiers.

R.

But do not they who are in heauen pray for the Church militant on earth?

C.

I thinke they doe in general, but not vpon any particular knowledge of our priuat necessities, troubles or tentations.

R.

How can that be?

C.

You may soon vnderstand how, for if they know your griefes, it is either by hearing of your words, or vnderstanding of your thoughts, or by some Reuelation made to them. Thinke yee they know your thoghts.

[Page]R.

No indeed, that is proper to God.

C.

Think you they hear your voice, when you expresse in prayer your thoughts by your words.

R.

I cannot thinke that neither, since they want their bodies which haue the organs of hearing.

C.

Then they must know it by Reuelation.

R.

It is most likely that when wee pray, God tels them our necessities.

C.

What neede you then to pray them to interceede for you.

R.

But how shall wee goe to a King but by his Courtiers?

C.

What a silly refuge is that? You haue forgotten what you [Page] answered euen now. See you not here how that similitude vsed by Papists is destroied, to wit, That as wee goe to earthly Kings by Courtiers, so we shold goe to the King of Heauen, by heauenly Courtiers: for here it is not the Courtier that shewes our necessities to the King, but the King you see shewes them to his Courtiers. And would you not think him a foole, who may haue the King himselfe to speake to, and knowes hee will be welcome if he speake as hee should, and yet passeth by the King, and depends vpon Courtiers to haue his turne done by them?

R.

I thinke no lesse then you say, but how is it then they pray for vs in generall?

[Page]C.

I will shew you how: there are foure sorts of prayer, one called [...], whereby we craue [...]uill to be diuerted from vs; an other called [...], whereby wee s [...]ke some good wee want to bee giuen vnto vs: the third is [...], whereby one of vs interceedes for an other: and the fourth is [...], thanksgiuing for good receiued. Now they who are in heauen are freede from tentation, and so [...] is not ascribed to them: neither yet is euer [...] in holy scripture giuen them: They rest from their labours, they are not busied to be patrones to seueral Countries, Cities and Companies of people, hauing the particular cures of seuerall diseases parted among them, that is but [Page] a doting dreame of Papistri [...]: but you will finde [...], thanksgiuing ascribed to them, and [...], too in generall, whereby they pray for some good they yet want, but look to enioy: as is euident out of their owne words, How long Lord: for this is the voice of these who want some thing they would faine haue.

R.

Tell me I pray you what want they who are in heauen?

C.

First, these glorified spirits want their bodies, without the which they can neuer haue full contentment: for the soule and body were created companions, the perfection of both stands in the promised vnion of both.

R.

I vnderstand that very [Page] well: but want they no other thing, for which they cry, How long?

C.

Yea, they want their brethren, all them that belong to the communion of Saints; their desire shall not be satisfied till all their brethren bee where they are: for God hath so prouided that th [...]y without vs should not bee perfected.

R.

In truth that is exceeding comfortable, that Adam, Abraham, & the rest of that congregation of the first borne shal not be perfected till we come to them, yea, til the full number of Gods Saints bee accomplished. But is there no other thing they long for?

C.

Yea, they long and pray for the comming of Christ, Euen [Page]so come Lord Iesus: at which time they know verie well, that all the promises of God shall bee performed to all and euerie one of the Saints of God. Thus farre you see how they in Heauen do pray in generall.

R.

But you thinke not that we should praie to them in our particular necessities.

C.

No indeed▪ for beside the former reason, we haue no warrant to praie vnto them, and so cannot doe it in faith. Will you consider can there bee any better Schoolemasters to teach vs how to pray then the persons of the blessed Trinitie? and thinke you not we are surest when wee prai [...] in such a manner as they haue taught?

R.

That cannot bee denied.

[Page]C.

Then I pray you marke it, there is the voice of God the Father,Psal. 50.15. Call vpon me; there is the precept of God the Son, When you pray you shall say in this manner, Our Father which art in Heauen &c. there is againe the voice of God the Holy Ghost, who when hee teacheth vs to pray, teacheth vs,Rom. 8. Crie abba, Father. What say you to these, is there any word here of praier to Cherubin, or Seraphin? is there any warrant for turning ouer of all the prayers in the Psalme booke to the Virgin Marie? O Ladie that art my righteousnesse. Psal. 4. O Ladie reprooue mee not in thy wrath. Psal. 6.

R

Truly I can say no [...]hing against them, for I see according to Gods Word it is the surest [Page] and safest way to pray to God by the mediation of Christ.

C.

But now I will bring you one cleare instance, to let you see how Papistrie takes away Christs intercession, and sets him idle in the Heauens.

R.

What is that?

C.

They say there is in Heauen, a King, God the Father; & a Queene the Virgin Marie; and that the King hath giuen to the Queen dimidium regni, Gab. Biel. in Cau. Miss. [...]ect. 56. the halfe of his Kingdome; the Ministration of Iustice hee hath kept to himselfe; the Ministration of Mercie hee hath giuen ouer to the Virgin Marie: such as seeke Iustice goe to the King of Heauen, such as seeke Mercie goe to the Queene, who also by her authoritie hath power to command [Page] her Sonne Christ Iesus.

R.

Good sooth these are too grosse speeches, for as you haue said, they make Christ idle in Heauen, or like a childe vnder Tuition: for my owne part I will keepe that reuerent estimation of the blessed Virgin, that is due to her: but will euer reserue to Christ the glorie of a Sauiour and Mediatour.

C.

Let it bee so, only now I will let you see that as Papistrie destroies many Articles of our Christian faith, concerning the person, and Offices of Christ: So it is a P [...]st of Commonwealths, loosing al the bands of human fellowshippe and societie.

R.

That is strange: for there are many flourishing Kingdomes [Page] with vnitie and peace that professe Papistrie.

R.

Remember you what our Sauiour sayes in the Parable. So long as the strong man keepes his house all is in quiet, but when a stronger then hee comes in to bind him, there begins the battell: So long as Sathan possessed the World by the darknesse of Papistrie, there was a miserable felicitie in it, and a cursed vnitie, such as was in Sodom, where young and old from the foure corners of the Citie conspired and agreed to one impietie: But now since Christ comes in by his glorious Gospell to illuminate his owne with the light thereof, that which before seemed peace in Papistrie, now appeares to bee [Page] a fir [...] come from Hel seeking to deuoure all such as forsake h [...]r errours, and embrace the truth of God.

R.

I, but that is a thing wherwith they charge the Gospel, that since it was preached, many Sects and Heresies are risen vp in the world, which were not in it before.

C.

I pray you consider what a Polici [...] of Sathan that is to disgrace the Gospell: how manie Heresies arose in the Apostles dayes or soone after, that was not in the World before. Then came vp Simon Magus, Cerinthus, Ebion, Marcion, Basilides, Menander, Valentinus, Cerdon, Marcion, and many more. Shall the Gospell be blamed for this? or rather may you not see [Page] it is the craft of the Deuill to disgrace the Gospell?

R.

Indeede I thinke it no good reason that the Gospell should be the lesse esteemed of. There is but one truth, but manifold errours; and I remember our Sauiour warning vs of thi [...] in that Parable of the Gospell; That where the good Husbanman sowes good wheat in the day, incontinent comes the Enemie that euill one, and sowes his popple in the night.

C.

Now if you apply that to our present question, the doubt is easily solued: So long as the World was blinded with idolatrie and the Masse (which in effect is but a Masse of Heresies) Sathan laie quiet, hee was not troubled in his Kingdome, and [Page] hee raised no trouble in the World: but since the light of the Gospell discouered his darkenesse, and that hee findes his Kingdome decaying, and himselfe falling by the preaching of the Gospell, now he bestirres himselfe more busily, and doth what he can to disgrace this glorious Evāgell by vile heresies of some that impugne it, and profane liues of others who professe it. But as you see, it is no reason why the Gospell should be blamed for any of these.

R.

It is not indeed. But now you remember you beganne to discourse how Papistrie is a Pest of Common-wealthes, Kingdoms, dissoluing all the bands of humane fellowshippe, and societie among men.

[Page]C.

Now I will let you see it There is own of their Positions; It is llawfull to spoile an Heretique of his goods, Grat. Caus. 1 [...].4. glossa. meliùs tamen est quod auihoritate indicis fiat: though it were better to do it by authoritie of the Iudge. In their iudgement all Protestants are Heretiques, and so they make it lawful for Papists both to steale and reaue from them.

R.

That is strange indeede; and yet I haue many times mar [...]a [...]led what should haue moued the M [...]c gregors; and other Licentious Men of our Island▪ who knew no Religion, to professe Papistrie, but now I see the reason of it; for it made their robberie good Christianitie.

C.

Here are other, Vxor catholica[Page]viro haeretico beneuolum reddere non te [...]e [...]ur, Siman [...]h [...] Pacens. Ep̄isc [...]pus Institut. Gregor. 13., that is to say in plaine t [...]rmes, a Wife that is a Papist is not bound to render due ben [...]uolence to her Husband being a Protestant.

R.

That assertion is more shameles then the other, plaine contrarie (as I remember) to the Apoles doctrine,1. Cor. 7.13. Let not a Woman forsake her husband who beleeues not, if hee bee content to dwell with her.

C.

You take it vp very well, and you may see how Papistrie breakes the band of fellowship betweene Husband and Wife.

R.

I see it indeed, and this resolues me of an other doubt, for I haue maruailed often what should mooue so many Ladies to become Catholique Roman, [Page] but now I see it is a plausible Religion for such Wiues as are male-content with their Husbands, for it loos [...]th them from that subiection where vnto God hath bound them.

C.

Take the third: It disslolues the bands betweene the Father and the Sonne Pater qui filium habet haereticum, C [...]rd. Alan. exhaereditare ten [...]tur [...] talem filium ▪ A Father that is a Papist and hath [...] Sonne that is a Protestant, he is bound to disinherit him. Again Pr [...]pter haere sin patris s [...]lij sunt sui iuris, Siman [...]ha Ep [...]s. Pacens. Instit. Cathol. lib. 46. [...]er. 74. by the Heresie of the Father the Child [...] is fre [...]d [...]rom obedience.

R.

Fie vpon them that maintain [...] such grosse positions.

C.

Y [...]t there is worse following.Caus. [...]3 Quaesi. 8. Haeretici f [...]i [...] vel consanguineinon[Page]dicantur, sed [...]x [...]alegem sit m [...]nus tua super eos, vt [...]undas sanguinem ipsorum. Heretiques may not bee termed Children, nor Kinsmen, but according to the olde Law thy hand must bee vpon them to spill their bloud. There are all the bands of Nature, Affinitie, Consanguinitie, destroyed by Papistrie, and they thinke it lawful for Papists to slaie their own Children or their Kinsmen, if they bee Protestants: What thinke you, is it good dwelling with such Vipers? and are our Protestants wise to make alliance by marriages with them?

R.

In good faith I am ashamed in their behalfe, and I think it no maruell you call Papistrie a Pest of Common-wealthes.

[Page]C.

You shall heare but one and I will trouble you with no more. It dissolueth the band of subjection wherin people stand bound to their Princes: Subditi licitè possunt haeretico domino negare obs [...]quium. Popish Subjects may lawfully denie obedience to a Protestant King. Againe, Non licet Christianis tolerare regem Haereticum: Bellar. lib. 5. de [...]om. Po [...]ti [...]. cap. 6.7. & 4. It is not lawfull for Christians to tollerate an Hereticall King, they may expell him, depose him, yea murther him: And this they say is agreeable to the Apostolique Doctrine.

R.

Away with it, for it may rather bee called a Doctrine of Deuils, who is the Father of lies, Seditions, Diuisions, and Murthers.

[Page]C.

And yet these are the common lessons, which are taught and practised by the Doctors, and Disciples of that whorish Church of Rome. But how fals [...]ly they call this Doctrine Apostolique. Consider what was the Apostles Doctrin concerning the obedience of people vnto their Kings. Read there what Saint Peter saith.

R.

I perceiue he bids honour the King, and commaunds the people to submit them selues vnto the King as Superiour, or vnto Gouernours (vnder him.)

C.

Very well: Tell me now who was King, and Supre [...]me Gouernour when Peter wrote this, was it not Nero? a vile Monster, a bloudie Persecutor, yet you see Peter bids not depose [Page] him, farre lesse bids he kill him. Looke againe to the Fathers of the Primitiue Church: see Iustine Martyr, Apol. ad Anton. Deum solum adoramus, in alijs vobis inseruimus laeti, Imperatores & Principes honum esse prof [...]tentes, & simul precantes, vt cum imperiali potestatem sanam quoque men [...]em obtinere comperiamini. We worship God only, in all other things we serue you with gladnesse, acknowledging you to be the Emperours, and Princes of men, praying also that with your Imperiall power yee may haue a sound mind. Here you see in all thing [...], except in matter of Gods Worship, Seruice professed to the Emperour, and Prayer made for such Princes as are contrarie minded to Christianitie, but no [Page] treason nei [...]her taught nor practised. The like hath Ignatius;Ad Antioch Caesari sub [...]iti estote in ijs, quibus sine periculo est ipsa subiectio: Bee subiect to Caesar in all thinges, wh [...]rein you may without peril of conscience:Lib. ad Sca [...]ul. And Tertullian also, Co [...]imus Imperatorem vt ho [...]inem a Deo secundum, solo Deo minorem: VVee reu [...]rence the Emperour as next and immediate vnder God, hauing none but God aboue him. Againe, Christianis nullius est host is, Tertul. Apolog. c [...]p. [...]8 29. & 30. nediùm Imperatoris, quem sciens a Deo suo constitui, necesse est, vt & ipsum di [...]igat, & reuereatur, & honoret, & salvum velit cum toto Romano Imperio. A Christian is no mans Enemi [...], farre lesse the Emperours Enemie, hee knowes that hee is placed by the Lord his [Page] God and therefore it cannot be but he must loue him, reuerence him, honour him, and wish his safetie, and the welfare of the Empire. Let Papists now bee ashamed to pretend either Apostles, or Apostolique men, as if they were Patrons of that pernicious Doctrine, whereby they teach their people to murther Princes, if they be contrarie minded to them in Religion.

R.

Doe it if they will they haue good cause.

C.

Now (Sir) because to morrow is the Sabbath, if you please to goe to the Church I will come and goe with you.

R.

I am v [...]rie well content, and I thanke you for it.

[Page]

[Page]

THE SEVENTH, OR SABBOTH DAYES CONFERENCE. Wherein the order obserued in the Church of SCOTLAND, is declared to be conforme to the ancient order prescribed by the Apostles, and practised in the Primitiue Church.

C.

GOod morrow (Sir) are you ready to goe?

R.

When you please.

C.

What Church wil yee goe [Page] to or whom of the Preachers desire you to heare?

R.

Make you the choice, I will accompany you.

C.

Let vs goe then, because you are a ftranger: here you will pardon me to goe before, and shew you the way into the Church, and shew you where you should sit.

R.

I thank you for it. What is this the people are going to doe?

C.

They bow themselues before the Lord, to make an humble confession of their sins and supplications for mercy; which you will heare openlie read out by the publik [...] reader. Now when it is done what thinke you of the prayer?

R.

Truly I thinke there is [Page] no thing in it, but that wherunto eueri [...] good Christian should say Amen: and it hath done me much good to see the people with humble reuerence, sighing and groning, accompanie the praier vp to God. But what goe they now to doe?

C.

Euerie one is preparing (as you see) their Psalme-book, that all of them with one heart and mouth, may sing vnto the Lord. There is the Psalme which the Reader hath proclaimed, if you please you may sing with them, or if you cānot follow them in your heart.

R.

So I will. What doth the Reader now, is he making an other praier?

C.

No, yonder booke which now hee open is the Bible: you [Page] will heare him read some portion of holy Scripture. Vnd [...]rstand you what he saies?

R.

Yea for sooth, wel enough for hee reades very distinctly.

C.

These are the three exercises which are vsed in all our congregations, euerie Saboth one houre before the preacher come in, first prayer, then psalms then reading of holi [...] scripture [...] and by these the hearts of [...]he people are prepared the more reuerently to heare the word, & you see all is done with great quietn [...]sse, deuotion, and reuerence.

R.

I see that ind [...]ed.

C.

We haue no ser [...]ice h [...]re you see in a strange langu [...]ge the Preacher speakes, and the people prayes in their mother [Page] tongue: but the new forme of the Romish Church is to haue all their diuine seruice in the latine tongue.

R.

Truly, I haue ofttimes maruelled at it▪ what should moue them to make their prai [...] in a language the people vnderstands not.

C.

Vitalianus Bishop of Rome, was the first father of this nouelty.

R.

Put what are they doing now?

C.

You heare the third Bell ringing, and in this space the reading ceaseth, and at the [...]nd of the Bel ringing, the Preacher will come: But till the Preach [...]r come in, reade this place of the Apostle Saint Paul, and you shall see what was the old form [Page] vsed in the Primitiue Church, and that ours is very agreeabie vnto it, Read the 1 Corinth. 14. ver. 6.

And now (Brethren) if I come vnto you speaking diuers tongues, what shall I profite you? except I speake to you either by Reuelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

7 Moreouer things without life which giue a sound, whether it be a pipe or a harpe, except they make a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be knowne what is piped or harped?

8 And also if the Trumpet giue an vncertaine sound, who shall prepare himselfe to battell?

9 So likewise yee by the tongue, except you vtter wordes that haue signification, how shall it be knowne [Page]what is spoken? for you shall speake in the aire.

10 There are so many kindes of voices (as it commeth to passe) in the world, and none of them is dumbe.

11 Except I know then the power of the voice, I shall bee vnto him that speaketh a B [...]rbarian, and hee that speaketh shall bee a Barbarian vnto me.

12 Euen so, forasmuch as yee couet spirituall gifts, seeke that yee may excell vnto the edifying of th [...] Church.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh a strange tongue, pray that hee may interpret.

14 For, if I pray in a strange tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my vnderstanding is without fruit.

15 What is it then? I will pr [...]y[Page] [...][Page] [...][Page]with the spirit, but I will pray with the vnderstanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the vnderstanding also.

16 Else when thou blessest with the spirit, how shall hee who occupieth the roome of the vnlearned, say, Amen: at the giuing of thankes, seeing hee knoweth not what thou sayest?

17 For thou verily giuest thāks well, but the other is not edified.

18 I thank my God I speak languages more then yee all.

19 Yet had I rather in the Church to speake fiue words with mine vnderstanding, that I might also instruct others, then ten thousand wor [...]es in a straenge tongue. You see here that by the Apostles precept, the seruice of God in the publike assemblies of th [...] [Page] Church, should be done in such a language as the people may vnderstand.

R.

I see it indeed.

C.

Now if it like you for your further confirmatiō, I wil shew you how the same order, which this day is obserued in our Church concerning the exercises of Gods worship, was also obserued in the Primitiue Church neerest the Apostles dayes.

R.

It likes me very well to heare it.

C.

Then will I tell you it out of Iustin Maertyr.

R.

What a Father was he?Apol. 2. ad Anton. Pi [...]m imperat

C.

A very ancient and learned man, hee liued in the yeare one hundred and fiftie, and of a Philosopher was conuerted to [Page] be a Christian: he wrote to the Emp [...]rour and Senate of Rome, two Apologies in defence of Christian Religion: in the secōd of them so he writes, Die qui solis dicitur omnes qui in oppidis; vel agris morantur, vnum in locum conueniunt, commentari [...]que Apostolorum, vel Prophetarum scripta leguntur, quandiu hora patitur, deinde vbi is qui legit destitit, is qui prae est admonet, & hortatur vt e [...] quae lecta sunt bona imitemur, tum surgimus omnes ac compre [...]mur, conclusisqu [...] nostris precibus panis, vinum, & aquae offeruntur, tum is qui primum locum tenet [...]odem modo preces, gratiarumque actionem pro virili mittit, populusque bene dicit, dicens, Amen, & ijs quae cum gr [...]tiarum actione consecrata sunt vnusquisque participat, eadem ad[Page]eos quiabsunt diaconis dantur perferenda, Quibus copiae suppetunt, ij si volunt, quis (que) si [...]o arbitratu quod vult largitur, quod (que) colligitur apud eum qui praest reponitur, is (que) pupillis, & viduis, & ijs quos morbus, aliaue caeusa inopes fecit, & ijs qui in vinculis sunt, & hospitib [...]s [...]ubuenit. Vpon that day which is called Sunday, all Christians resident in townes and villages assemble in one place, where the written Comment [...]ries of the Prophets and Apostles are read for the space of an howre, the which being done, the Preacher or President ouer the flocke, admonisheth & exhorts vs to follow the wholesome word read: then get wee all vp and pray together: our prayers being finished, bread, wine, and water are [Page] presented, and then the Preacher conceiues feruent praier and thanksgiuing, and the people blesse God, saying, Amen: then euery one taketh a part of these things which were consecrate by thāksgiuing, the same things also are giuen to the Deacons to be [...] conuaied to these who are absent: And such as haue the things of this world contributes to the poor [...] as they please, and that which is collected, is giuen him in trust who is President, & hee therwith supports the widdow, fatherlesse, & these whom sicknes or any other cause hath made indigent, as also strangers, and these who are imprisoned. I might shew you the like out of of Tertullian, in his Apologie, aduersus Gentes, Cap. 39. But [Page] now the time serues not.

R.

It needes not for that place, you haue brought from the Apostle, and this other from Iustin Mart [...]r, may let any man see the order & exercise, which Christians of the church Primitiue obs [...]rued in their holy assemblies for I see no other thing among them (as you said) but publik [...] reading of the word in a plaine language done by the Reader till the Preacher come in, thē publike singing of Psalms by all the people, th [...]n preaching, prayer, and collection for the poore.

C.

You take it vp very well, and God be praised you see that same order among vs: And you who haue seene their seruice, & dumb guise of their Masse, their [Page] mumbling of prayers in the Latine tongue, and the vnreuerent prophaning of the sabbath, that is among their people for la [...]ke of discipline, may soone discerne that how soeuer they brag of an Apostolike Church, yet they haue not kept the ancient Apostolike order.

R.

It is true indeed, for if a man wil goe to a Papists church to heare Masse, he shall not discerne what the Priest sayes, vnlesse he vuderstand Latine, and I haue many times thought strange of it.

C.

But it falles out very well that so it should bee: The first Babel for her proud vsurpation, was punished with confusion of Languages, that when the builder spake the people knew not [Page] what he craued; and iustly is the like, Yea a worse plague, in so much as it is Spirituall powred out vpon new Babel, for her intollerable presumption, that when their Priest speakes the people wots not what he sayes.

R.

In truth it is a great blindnesse.

C.

And so yee may say: for albeit they had no cleare Diuine warrant in the Word, yet considering that God by an extraordinary decree declared his will to themselues, it is strange they should not giue place vnto it.

R.

Where haue you that?Hist. Bohem. Cap. 13.

C.

I find it in Aen [...]as Siluius their owne man, that when the Slauonians sought licence from Pope Formosus that they might [Page] celebr [...]te Diuine Seruice in their owne mother tongue, the matter being disputed in the Popes Counsell, a voice was heard from Heauen saying, Omnis spiritus laudet Deum, & omnis lingua confiteatur illi: Let euerie Spirit praise the Lord, and all tongues confesse him: Wherevpon at that time that benefit was granted to the Slauonians: but thinke yee it not strange that it should bee denied to other people?

R.

I thinke so indeed, specially since the Lord hath declared his will so plainely both in his word, and in that extraordinari [...] reuelation. But wee must let this alone, for there comes the Preacher. And now (I pray you) tell mee how I should behaue my selfe.

[Page]C.

Trouble you not, doe a [...] you see others beside you: for first he will conceiu [...] a Pray [...]r, at the which the people humbles themselues; thereafter he reads his Text of Holy Scripture, this the people heare with reuerēce, then hee falles to the preaching which some heare with their heads couered, some otherwise, (in that you may doe as your health requires▪) the preaching being ended hee concludes all with a thanksgiuing, after which there is a Psalme sung by the whole Congregation, and then the Minister blesseth the people in the name of the Lord, and so dimits them: you will see no other thing here.

R.

Well, I shal obserue it the best I can.

[Page]C.

Now what thinke of it?

R.

In truth I think it a most comely and comfortable order, and I thanke God, it is the best Sabbath day that euer I saw.

C.

Considered you his Text, and how he opened it vp?

R.

Yea I haue: Saint Paul in it makes m [...]ntion of his owne conuersion, and how he was receiu [...]d to mercy by Christ Iesus, of whom he witnesseth h [...] came into the World to saue sinners.

C.

You heard him there declare, how the elect Children of God before their calling differ not in maners from reprobates, but when grac [...] comes it makes the difference, and causeth them to say with the Apostle, I was a blasphemer, a persecutor, an Idolater, &c. but now (thankes to God) I am not so.

[Page]R.

I heard it verie well, and from my heart I also giue thankes to God, who hath receiued mee to his mercie: for I was plunged in the darkenesse of Idolatrie, beside many other filthie sinnes which oppressed mee: but the Lord hath deliuered mee from them all, blessed be God for it. And I thanke you (my deare Brother) who hath been an instrument of his grace toward me.

C.

Nay (Sir) all thankes and praise bee vnto the Lord: hee seekes and saues that which was lost, he reduceth his own from their wandrings, and giues life to them who were dead.

FINIS.

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Title statement

Seuen dayes conference betweene a catholicke christian, and a catholicke Romane. Concerning some controuersies of religion. By William Cowper, B. of Galloway.

Cowper, William, 1568-1619.

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1613

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Text Creation Partnership,

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Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) :

Date

2003-11 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1).

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A19505

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STC 5934

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ESTC S112854

ID [EEBO-CITATION]

99848097

ID [PROQUEST]

99848097

ID [VID]

13175

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This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal. The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission.

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(EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A19505)

Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 13175)

Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1303:05)

Source

— Seuen dayes conference betweene a catholicke christian, and a catholicke Romane. Concerning some controuersies of religion. By William Cowper, B. of Galloway., Cowper, William, 1568-1619..

Extent

[32], 221, [3] p.

Printed by W. S[tansby] for Iohn Budge, and are to be sold at his shop at the South doore of Paules, and Britaines Bursse,. London :: 1613.. (Printer's name from STC.) (Last leaf is blank.) (Reproduction of the original in the British Library.)

Creation

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