WHen it pleased the Lord Iesus to re­veale the vvord of his truth, unto the Gentiles, by the ministerie of his ser­vants the Apostles there arose up ad­versaries to vvithstand the same, and to abuse his vvitnesses thereof. VVhē Paul and Barnabas vvere sent forth by the Lord to preach the Gospel to the nations, they cōming to Pa­phus, the Deputie Sergius Paulus called them unto him, and desired to heare the vvord of God; then Sa­than stirred up his instrument, Elymas, a false Pro­phet and a sorcerer, vvho vvithstood them, & sought to turne avvay the Deputie from the fayth. Act. 13.6-10. The like also did some of the Ievves at An­tiochia, vvho seeing the vvord of God to prevayle a­mongst the Gentiles (and them desirous of further instructiō therein) vvere full of envie & spake against those things, vvhich vvere spoken of Paul, contradi­cting & blaspheming. ver. 45. Like enemies did Paul again finde at Ephesus, of the Ievves. For he having spoken boldly in their Synagogue for the space of three moonths, disputing & persvvading the things concerning the kingdome of God: then certaine of the Ievves having their harts hardened, not onely dis­obeyed and beleeved not the vvord, but spake evill of that vvaie before the multitude. Act. 19.8.9. And manie other the like exāples of men opposing against the vvord of truth, and of haters & persecuters of the professors thereof might be shevved, both out of the Scriptures and ecclesiasticall histories.

And as then it vvas, in the first opening of the light to the Gentiles, that Sathan by his Ministers vvith­stood the preaching thereof: so novv since that the Lord in mercie hath discovered the man of sinne, and caused his truth (obscured by the darke mistes of Po­perie) againe to be revealed to us in these last tymes; sending his first,Apoc. 14.6. &c. second, and third Angels, to preach an everlasting Gospel to thē that dvvell on the earth, that vvere overspread in Apostasie vvith the errors & abhominations of the man of sinne: and to teach us to vvalke in the vvaies of God; calling us from the vvorship of the beast, and receiving of his marke, to keepe the commandements of God, and the faith of Iesus &c. even novv also, I say, have there risen up enemies of all sortes, to stoppe this vvaie of truth, & to reproch, vexe, and persequute the vvitnesses there­of. For to passe by all those hard speaches and un­godly deeds that have bene since & before the dayes of Luther against the Saincts and faith of Iesus; I vvill come to our ovvne particular case and state, vvhereof there be manie of us, that by experience can give testi­monie, vvhat hard measure vve have susteyned for the cause of Christ: and do still undergoe reproches, sclanders, railings against, and the like: as it cannot be unknovven (especially to our countrimen) vvhat vve have borne at the handes of some of them, vvho have manie times & vvaies smitten us vvith their tongues:Ier. 18.18. besides all the other troubles and persecu­tions susteyned by us, to imprisonment, banishment and death it self.

And vvhat is it for, but because (according to the measure of grace, given us from above) vve have se­parated our selves frō such corruptions of Antichrist, vvherein vve formerly stood: and doe vvalke in the [Page 7]vvaie of the Lord revealed uuto us out of his vvord, vvitnessing against all false vvaies and devises of men brought into the Church for the vvorship & service of God, our desire and indevour being to stand and plead for that old and good vvaie of God, vvherein all are bound to vvalke. Ier. 6.16. For if the oppositi­on against us vvere onely and simply for sinne, and through an hatred that such men have against sinne, then vvould they first begin vvith them selves, both to look to their ovvne sinnes and iniquities, and to take the like course against the sinnes and transgressi­ons of those Churches and members thereof, vvhere novv they are, or vvhere ever they should be.

But thus hath it pleased God to make us like in bea­ring reproches and calumniations to his Saincts and people of old, vvho feeling the burden therof to be heavie and grievous, complained unto the Lord, say­ing: How long shall the adversarie reproch, shall the ene­mie blaspheme thy name for ever? Psal. 74.10. And a­gaine, they utter forth their complaint, saying: Wee are a reproch to our neighbours, a scorne and derision to them that are round about us. Psal. 79.4. And even this is our case, vvho also are made a reproch to our neighbours, a jest and a laughing stock to them that are round about us: having our soules also (as they had theirs) filled too full of the mocking of the vveal­thie, and dispitefulnes of the proud. Psal. 44.13. and 123.4, So that in respect hereof vve may complain vvith David, vvho said, I was a reproch among all myne enemies, but specially among my neighbours; and a feare to myne acquaintance, who seeing mee in the streets fled from me. And againe, I am become a straunger unto my Brother, even an aliant unto my mothers sonnes. I became a proverbe unto them, and they that sitte in the gatespake [Page 8]against me, and the drunckards song of me. Psal. 31.11. and 69.7.8.11.12.

And although our loving Father do thus humble & chastise us justly for our sinnes, yet doth he also in mercie cover them: and gives us novv to beare these sclanderous reports, of Schismatikes and the like, for the testimonie of his truth: In vvhich respect the Lord indeed honoureth us. For our Churches estate, and our consciences do vvitnesse vvith us and for us to God and men, that vve have not vvillingly left any truth, or any ordinance of God, that vve had former­ly received vvith others in our apostate standing, but are carefull to reteyne them all (vvhat in us is) pur­ged from the corruptions that vvere mixed vvith thē, in our former corrupt receiving of thē. Neyther have vve made division and offences contrarie to the do­ctrine, vvhich vve have learned from the Apostles; but do vvalke in the auncient vvaie of the primitive Churches, keeping the ordinances, vvorship, and or­der of government, prescribed by the Apostles, vvith­out the mixture of Antichristiā or other humane ad­ditions: And therefore unjustly are vve termed Schis­matikes. If it can be shevved othervvise in any thing, let the vvitnesses, the vvritings of the Apostles and Prophets be brought forth against us: and vve trust vve shall through the grace of God yeeld thereunto: as vve have ben carefull hitherto to shevv it forth in the redressing of such things as have ben observed a­mong us to svvarve any vvaie frō the word of God. Great are our tryals by men on all hands, vvhich vve suffer for our vvitnesse bearing of Iesus, vvhiles be­sides our exile & other afflictions, some are speaking bitter and sclanderous vvords against us, yea and our ovvne neighbours spare us not, and others also shar­pen [Page 9]their pennes to reproch us, and to that ende vvrite re­prochful books against us: that vve may say vvith Israel, If the Lord had not bene on our side, when men rose up against us, they had swallowed us up quick. Psal. 124. 1-3.

Yet if these reproches & hard dealings touched our selves onely, and did not vvith all reach to the truth vvhich vve vvitnesse; vve could and vvould rest patiently, vvay­ting untill the Lord avenge our cause; & vvould not once open our mouthes or set our pennes to paper, to vvrite in defence of our porsonall injuries: But seeing thus together vvith detracting of us, the truth of God comes to be repro­ched, and despised in this respect; if vve should passe over these things altogether vvith silence, and not stand in de­fence of the Lords cause, vve might be arraigned justly as guyltie of betraying his truth, & as men ashamed of Christ before men: VVe dare not therefore herein be vvanting to beare vvitnesse to the vvord of truth, vvhen men thus labour the darkning thereof, and for the maintenance of their ovvne corruptions, do set them selves to speake and vvrite against the same.

Of late there is come forth a pamphlet and sclanderous book full of reproches, published by one Christopher Lawne and other his companions. In vvhich there are con­teyned sundrie things of divers sorts. Some touching our generall cause, about the Church of England: some con­cerning the singing of Psalmes used among us: some a­bout personall matters, concerning divers of us & others: some touching a divisio made lately by divers amōg us, &c.

Concerning our generall cause, although we have writ­ten often, and manie treatises thereabout, vvhich remaine yet unansvvered: yet seeing vve are here againe thus abu­sed about it; and that not onely by the persons aforesaid, (vvhich vve might better passe by) but by one M. Robert Parker, vvhose testimonie is here inserted: vve purpose [Page 10]therefore (Godvvilling) to vvrite in particular about his testimonie; &c so againe by this occasion to publish some­vvhat more about that our generall cause aforesaid: al­though for the present vve have both some occasions to deale in other things, and some reasons to staye us yet a vvhile frō publishing of that, vvhich by the grace of God, vve purpose to doe. In the meane time, let this be noted concerning M. Parker and his testimonie: hovv he hath heretofore in a large booke pleaded against the Church of England, that by reason of the crosse in Baptisme, & other Ceremonies reteyned among them, they become guiltie of the breach of all the tenne commandements, as also of cō ­muniō vvith Antichrist, & slaverie under him, &c. Novv vve purpose to trie, hovv he can on the other hand approve the state of the same Church, as novv it standeth, and as it is vvitnessed against by us: & hovv he can vvarrant us com­munion vvith the same in that their estate: or vvhether it may please God by this meanes to give him & others, bet­ter to observe and regarde their halting betvveen tvvo opi­nions, then hitherto they have done. VVe finde that for the former plea, handled in his book, he hath alledged the Scriptures plētifully, as throughout the book may be seen: but vvhether he can so doe for this latter, spokē of in his te­stimonie against us, time and further occasion vvill mani­fest. Yet in the meane time all may see, that there is not the like done against our cause, eyther in his testimonie publi­shed, or in the vvhole book, vvherevvith his testimonie is joyned: vvhich is as barren of vvarrant from the Scripture, for the estate of the Church of Englād called into questiō, as M. Parkers former book against it is fruitfull therein. VVhich let the Reader vvell observe.

Touching the singing of Psalmes used amongst us (vvhereof the persons aforesaid speak also their pleasure in their book) vve are purposed ere long, if God vvill­to [Page 11]publish them: vvhatsoever those men saye or vvould insinuate to the contrarie, or in anie other re­spect thereabout. And so vve shall leave it to the in­different judgment of all, hovv these men have dealt vvith us in this behalf. And sooner also might vve pu­blish both these and other things, then vve doe, vvere it not for the troubles, that these men and others have procured us, and still doe.

As for the personall matters published in the book a­foresaid, although vve leave the matters concerning others to them selves; & doe for this Church acknovvledge that indeed vve have had our transgressions and infirmities like as in the Churches of Corinth, Galatia, and others in all a­ges, and at this day may be seen: for vvhich vve are much grieved: yet is it good & needfull for the Reader here, & al­vvaies to remēber that saying, Quis erit innocens, si accusare sufficiat? If to accuse be sufficient, who can be innocent? For ther vvill be accusers alvvaies (as M. Parker upon the same say­ing inferreth in his book) as long as the Maxime liveth,M. Park. scholast. disc, a­gainst symboli­zing vvith Anti­christ in ceremo­nies, &c. 2 book. pag. 118. vvhich one gave once in Alexanders court: Fortiter calum­niare, nam etsi vulnus curetur, cicatrix tamen remanebit. Give out calumniations mightily, for though the wound be healed, yet will the scarre remaine. But the godly will better consider of things, remēbring the common frailtie even of the best, and not forgetting the commandement of God, vvhereof M. Parker in his testimonie seasonably putteth the reader in minde, Thou shalt not receive a false tale agoinst thy neigh­bour: as also knovving that all lying & reprochfull dealing should not by right live longer then the lye of the Gibeo­nites. And hovv ever vve be dealt vvithall in this sort, yet must vve comfort our selves, in the assurances of Gods mer­cies, and in the common and continuall lotte of Gods ser­vants, vvalcking through good and through euill report before us.

Novv touching these men and their dealings I purpose not in particular to shevve hovv ungodly, & unjustly they have dealt against us: not onely contrarie to all pietie, but against all modestie, in laying opē the infirmities & trans­gressions of some (vvhose repentance is knovvn even to these reprochers thē selves, as it was to the whole Church) also in shamelesse publishing of some things never heard of in our Church, nor so much as knovven to the parties vvhō they mention; besides their uttering of some things also verie false and untrue. And that so, as the vvriting it self in the cares and judgment of the vvise doth sufficiently convince the Authors of aboundance of malice, & argues in them vvant of grace, & of the feare of God, (a just judg­ment of God upon thē that have vvalked haltingly before God in his Church, and have vvilfully refused to heare the voice of Christ Iesus in the same) that have so spitefully & sclanderously vvritten against this Church, against the Pa­stor and other Officers & members thereof, & have thus vvith their bitter venemous toungues smitten them, whō the Lord doth accept, and to vvhom (I trust) he vvill re­quite good for this their cursing: as David in a like case did comfort himself. 2 Sam. 16.7-12.

And touching our forbearing novv to ansvvere their vvriting being such as it is, it may suffice that vve have shevved heretofore, concerning the like vvriting of Tho­mas Whites, that vve can & have ansvvered such shamelesse vvritings, least such fooles should be wise in their owne conceits: Prov. 26, 5. and so might doe by this book, for the repro­ches and sclaunders therin conteyned, as vve did by that o­ther: but it seemes partly not so needefull, seeing the same things and the like are novv published by these, that vvere then also by Thomas White (vvherunto ansvver vvas given) partly not meete or good to follovv these vvicked men in their ungodly courses: but to observe that other [Page 13]proverbe of Salomons, vvhich saith, Answer not a foole ac­cording to his follie, least thou also be like him: Prov. 26.4. as also to leave them and their dealings to the judgement of the Lord, & to the censure of all godly & indifferent men, to judge vvhether they vvould justifie any amongst them, that should so carrie thē selves, as to publish to the vvorld, the slippes and sinnes of the particular persons of their so­cieties.

For if men should take this course, as these have done, vvhat volumes might not be vvrittē of the faults & sinnes of particular Churches? Is there any societie or companie to be found on earth, that if any vvould make a diarie of their lives (yea even of them that are religious and godly) but there vvould be found manie things amisse amog thē? and yet no grace to any of such a companie, (especially in such a spitefull manner) to commit such personall sinnes to print? Let these men take a like survaie of such societies or Churches, that they are vvithall, and see if they can not finde as manie, yea (if they vvould not be partiall) a great manie moe vices and other manner transgressions, then vvith al their sclanders they are able to charge this Church vvithall. And vvill not any then, judge these men in this their doing, to have shevved great malice and partialitie: and that not the spirit of God, but Satan (that enemie to Michael & his Angels) hath set them on vvorke to reproch the truth it self, by this their vile dealing? Or vvould them selves take it in good part, if vve should laye open their ovvne personall sinnes, vvhich vve knovve by them, both manie and great? VVhat have they then done to us, or hovv have they kept herein that rule of Christ, vvhich saith, Whatsoever ye would that men should doe unto you, even so doe ye unto them. Mat. 7.12. But being sorie to see thē thus adde more sinne to their former sinnes, for vvhich they vvere excommunicate, I vvill leave thē for the Lords [Page 14]censure to vvorke upon them, if so it please God, for the sa­ving of their soules in the daie of the Lord Iesus Christ. 1 Cor. 5.4.5.

And here by this occasion, vve vvill speak a litle concer­ning Gods vvorke, about tvvo others, vvho haue hertofore vvritten against this poor Church, and against the Pastour and members thereof, as novv these have done. The one vvas George Iobnson the Pastours brother, vvho dyed at Dur­ham: the manner of vvhose sicknes and death vvas signifi­ed hither to his brother by vvriting frō thence, by a friend of his that vvas often vvith him, both before & in the time of his sicknes: VVho vvrote hither, that he being in pri­son, bestovved the most of his time, in finishing the book which before he had begunne, and whereof some sheets are printed; vvhich vvhen he had done, it pleased God to visite him vvith sicknes unto death. At vvhich time on his death bedde, he gave out (as he vvrote, & is vvell knovvn) verie heavie & great exclamations about his sinnes by the Lord layd to his charge, calling unto God for mercie. And in this sort (sayth the Gentleman that vvrit the letter, & vvas present there) he cōtinued by the space of an houre that I was with him, shewing great trouble in minde, yet not without comfort in the Lord, whose servant I doubt not but he dyed. The vvords ut­tered by him, and other circumstances mentioned in the Letter aforesaid, vve spare yet to set dovvne: as vve vvould also still have done the thing it self, but that vve are thus continually provoked hereunto, and that vve hope it vvill be for the good of others, to stay them from such courses: and above all to the glorie of God, vvhich is to be observed and acknovvledged in all his vvorks.

And vvhereas it is so often objected, by M. Bernard, M. Hall, M. White, Christopher Lawne and others, that the Pastors brother vvas excommunicated among us, and [Page 15]his father also, it is to be noted, that yet never a one of them hath undertaken to shevve the causes to be unjust, or the thing unlavvfull. Nay vvhen Mr. VVhite made it one head of his book, to except vvhat he could about the excommunications that had passed in this Church, and vvrote of sundrie persons & their causes in particular: yet it may be observed, that he doth not so much as once offer to insist upon theirs: vvhich of all others no doubt he vvould most of all have done, if he had thought he could have made any plea thereabout. And vvho vvill not consider, that such as vvould thus blame the excommunicating of any persons, should first be able and carefull to shevv the causes thereof and the proceeding against them, to be unjust? For othervvise, if they be just and lavvfull, so as none can except thereagainst, it is the more god­ly, and commendable (though accompanied vvith grea­ter tryall) vvhen neyther father nor mother, brother nor sister, sonne nor daughter are spared. As in the Scriptures vve read, hovv Moses commended and God blessed Levi, for not knovving his ovvne father or mother, brethren or children, but observed the vvord of God, and did his vvill against them, though it vvere to the inflicting of death upon them: Deut. 33.8.9. with Exod. 32.26-29. Eyther therefore let men by the vvord of God disprove the causes and proceeding in the excommunications they except against at any time: or els being not able so to doe, the more they vvrite against us, the more it maketh for us in deede; and so vvill be observed by them that are vvise according to godlynes.

Besides, seeing the parties here spokē of are novv depar­ted this life, if M. Iohnson should vvrite any thing about thē, by vvhich they should novv be foūd blame vvorthy: [Page 16]vvho can not perceive, that this then also vvould be abu­sed against him, and that men vvould not stick to saye, that novv he might speak vvhat he vvould of them, vvhen they vvere not living to ansvver for themselves; and that al­though they vvere novv dead, & so neare unto him as they vvere, yet he vvould vvrite thus and thus of them, &c. For they that spare not so to abuse him as novv they do, even about things publikely heard and knovven, vvhereof there are so manie vvitnesses yet living: hovv vvould they much more abuse any thing that he should novv say or vvrite concerning them, vvhen they are gone and departed this life? They that observe hovv he and the rest of us are dealt vvithall, vvill consider these things. And it shall be good for him and us all, to possesse our soules vvith pacience, & to vvaite on the Lord, trusting in his mercie, making our refuge in the shadovve of his vvings, till our cala­mities be overpast, and that it please the Lord to save us from the reproch of them that vvould svvallovve us up. For doubtles God vvill send forth his mercie and his truth: as he hath hitherto graciously delivered our soules from death, & our feet from falling: that vve may vvalke before him in the light of the living. Psal. 57.

The other that vvrote in like sorte, as these have done, vvas Thomas White spoken off before, vvho after his living here, and vvriting so ungodly as he did, returned and lived a Minister at London under the Prelates: vvhere vvhen he had after some vvhile gottē a benefice in such sort as he did, the Lord soon ended his daies. These things I thought thus briefly to mention, being (it may be) of some not re­garded as they should. And hovv ever the Lord spare such mē, & let thē goe on in their course a vvhile, yet in the end if they repent not, his hand vvill finde them out, and bring their vvaies upon their ovvn heads: as throughout the Scriptures vve may read. Psal. 52. & 55.12.13.14.15-23.

But novv omitting to vvrite any thing more of them, that have thus dealt vvith us, & leaving them to the Lord: I vvill proceede to the next and last speciall matter, vvhich at this time I purpose to speake of. And that is about the persons (spoken of in this last book) vvho of late divided them selves from us, and have since that time given forth some exceptions and Articles of difference, both here at Amsterdam and othervvhere. Here they gave out some vvhich vve heard of, but never had copie of them, untill novv that these men have printed them, being taken (as they say) from the originall copie. Othervvise also they have given out the like, in letters sent into England, as vve have heard, & by meanes of one there, to vvhom they sent had certaine knovvledge thereof: vvho dealt more godly and indifferently thereabout, then any other of them, that have in such sorte ben possessed and praejudiced against us. And as that party dealt vvell vvith us, in acquainting us vvith those things, vvhich thus covertly vvere vvritten & given out against us: so did vve also for his better satisfy­ing vvrite unto him againe in particular thereabout. The vvhich both Articles and Ansvveres thereunto, vve haue thought good to keep them by our selues hitherto. But seeing that other the like in effect, though increased in nū ­ber, are thus published to the vvorld, and that therein they have not as they ought, handled & justifyed the causes for vvhich they separated from us (vvhich vvere annexed at the end of the treatise upon Mat. 18.17. and shall also be againe annexed here, but haue gone about also to possesse the vvorld vvith other matters, then those for vvhich they made their breach: and by these their courses, doe impute blame unto our doctrine, as if vve mainteyned opinions contrarie to the truth, labouring thereby to sette a more glorious shevv upon their popular government and plea­dings: and that thereby vve perceive, the truth is much [Page 18]hindered, and vve injuried, and many by their meanes and opinions so deceived, that they despise the holy govern­ment of Christ, vvhich he hath set in his Church to be ad­ministred by the Elders thereof, & refuse to submit there­unto: and that not onely they vvho have thus vvritten & dealt here, but others also in our ovvn coūtrie, praejudiced vvith these matters, and sinisterly possessed vvith some of their vvritings, against us and our cause, are likevvise cor­rupted, and so have shevved it, both vvhen occasionally some of us haue been vvith them there, and also among them selues, as vve hear: vve haue therefore for these and other the like reasons thought it good, not to keepe these things any longer private by us, but for the better satisfying of all, touching the things vve hold, and the clearing of our selves from the imputations layed upon us hereabout, and removing the scandall vvhich some have taken & are like yet more to take upon the publishing of this vvriting of theirs: novv therefore to print also the said Ansvver to their exceptions, that men may see, and be able the better to judge bētvveen us & them, vvhen they shall haue heard both of us speak, & shall have asvvell our ansvvers as their objections to read and consider of by the vvord of God.

And though it haue thus fallen out betvveen us and our brethren, & they grovven to that height, that they vvould not be persvvaded to continevv vvith us in cōmunion; vvise men vvill consider, it is but an auncient practise of Sathan thus to disquiet and trouble the Church of God. In the Church at Corinth vvere contentions and dissen­sions raised up amongst the brethren, so that some held of one Teacher, some of an other 1 Cor. 1.10-12. And aftervvard vvhat contention grevve betvveene the eastern and vvestern Churches about the time of keeping the feast of Easter, none can be ignorant that hath read thereabout the auncient histories. Also vvhat fell out [Page 19]betvveene our ovvne countrimen at Franckfurt in the daies of Q. Marie, (they beeing then in exile for the truth, as novv vve are) their troubles and contentions are extant in print thereabout. Yea our Saviour himself sayth, it must needs be that offences come, Mat. 18.7. And the Apostle sayth, there must be schismes and heresies a­mong you, that they which are approved may be made mani­fest. 1 Cor. 11.18.19.

Novv seeing the like troubles, divisions and disagree­ments have fallen out in former times in the Chur­ches of God, and that men have their infirmities (though othervvise being religious and fearing God) they vvhich are of a spirituall discerning, vvill not upon everie oc­casion that ariseth amongst the professors of Christ, by reason of their vveaknesses, and personall sinnes and infirmities, open their mouthes to speake evil of the vvaie of God, though some take pleasure therein, vvho shall finde one daie the avenging hand of God upon them, if they repent not.

And touching these persons aforesaid, that have so separated from us, and thus offensively vvritten, I per­svvade my self, that manie of them, are persvvaded (though deceived by the subtiltie of Sathan) that they have the truth, and that they did runne at the first in­to these extremities, being carried (as the Anabaptists and others also haue been) vvith a zeale for the truth & glorie of God against that Antichristian Apostasie & go­vernmēt, vvhich formerly the Prelates & ministers of that usurped authoritie oppressed thē vvithall. And for myne ovvne part, I hope that so manie of them as are the Lords elect, he vvill in time (by the meanes used for their good) give them to see, both their errours they stand in, & their grievous sinne, in so rashly and unjustly breaking off them selves from the Church vvhereof they stood members, & [Page 20]that others by their example vvill take heed of the like hereafter.

These things I thus vvrite, not to excuse evil in any, but to take avvay occasion frō them that seek occasion to rayse up sclander against the cause of God, by reason of these things thus falling out amongst us: and that men should knovve, that the vvaie of God hangeth not upon the lives of men; but is to be regarded in respect of the Lord the au­thor thereof. Verie evill therefore doe they, that take oc­casion upō such dissensions, to blaspheme the truth it self. The erroneous vvalking of any professors, shall not excuse others, that imbolden themselues thereby to stand in Apo­stasie, and seeke not after the truth and vvaie of God, that Christ hath commanded all to vvalke in.

Thus having (good Reader) praefixed this short adver­tisement, for thy better informatiō about the things afore­said, as also about this my purpose in setting forth of this Ansvver to the Objections aforsaid: receiue novv the An­svver it self, as it vvas penned by the vvriter thereof, vvith some additions thereunto by the same author, upon occa­sion of inlargeing and publishing of the said Exceptions novv printed. This ansvver I pray thee (Christian Reader) vievv and consider vvell, that if it be the vvil of God, thou mayest be satisfyed of the truth vve hold about these things. And if in any thing we fayle hereabout through ignorance, and want of understanding, we shall willingly receiue, and that with thanks, thy brotherly advertisement thereof.

And because among other things, we are much abused about a particular concerning the Church of Rome, wee haue therefore hereunto annexed somewhat out of the writings of M. Iunius against Bellarmine, about that matter; not that we relie upon the judgment of men in causes of Religion, but because we knowe that manie, who are ca­ried [Page 21]with a praejudice against us, will yet more staye them, when they see what M. Iunius hath written of that argu­ment. In whose writing although there be some schoole termes, hard to be englished well in our tounge, for the understanding of all, as we desire, yet we have so done it into english, as we hope the meaning thereof will by all be conceived and attayned unto.

And thus leaving these [...]hings with the event thereof unto the Lord, & his good blessing of his mercie in Christ: I humbly beseech the most vvise God, to cause the light of his heavenly word to shine forth more and more, for the discovering of all errour and false opinions & courses hin­dering the successe of the auncient truth, and so to establish the Churches of God, in that old and good vvaie, prescri­bed by the Lord and his Apostles and Prophets. Amen.

BEcause you have heard of the sorrowes that have befallen us here,M. Ains. Letter. whereby your grief is the more augmented, and because the true report & estate of things perhaps is not so well knowen un­to you, I will also briefly touch the smart where­with God hath humbled us, & caused our breach to be as the sea, which can not be cured. Manie daies of comfort God gave us here together, whilest in singlenes of hart we sought him, in the mids of our pilgrimage with love & peace: But love of preheminence, which hath alwaies troubled the Church of Christ, hath also troubled us: whilest the Governours of the Church which should serve it with meeknes, would rule it with Lordship.1. Confes. artic. 24. Apol. pag 26.63.

1 For whereas we had learned and professed, that Christ hath given the power to receive in or to cut off any member, to the vvhole bodie together of everie Congregation, & not to any one or moe members sequestred from the vvhole: Now we have been lately taught, that the Church which Christ sendeth to, for the redresse of sinnes, Mat. 18.17. is not to be understood of the whole bodie of the Congregation, but of the Church of Elders. And it being graunted of all, that with the Church is the power, the Elders being the Church, have the power, and so not the whole bodie of the congregation together.

2 We had learned,2. Tre [...]. of the Mini­sterie of Eng. pag. 63. Apol. pag. 63. that everie true Church of Christ, hath this povver to cast out obstinate sinners from amongst thē, and this not onely vvhen it hath Officers, but also vvhen it vvanteth them: But wow we were taught, that a people with­out Officers have not power to cast out obstinate sinners. Which doctrine, amongst other evils, overthroweth the constitution of the Church that so taught: for it was gathered and constituted [Page 23]by Christians without Officers, receiving in the repentant, and casting out the disobedient: whereas by this opinion, they had power from Christ to doe neyther: for they that can not cast out, can not receive in: one power is for both.

3 We had learned that everie Christian Congregation hath povver and commandement to elect & ordeyne their ovvn ministerie, according to the rules of Gods vvord,3. Confes. art. 23. & 35. Apol. pag. 46.and upon such default in life doctrine or administration, as by the rule of the vvord depriveth them of the ministerie, by due order to depose them from their ministerie they exercised, yea if the case so require, orderly to cut them off by excom­munication: But now it is by some mainteyned, that the Con­gregation can neither put into office nor put out of office, unlesse they have officers to doe both: and can neyther for heresie nor other vvickednes excommunicate or depose their Eldership.

4 We had learned that none may execute a ministerie, 4. Confes. art. 21. but such as are rightly called by the Church, vvhereof they stand ministers, unto such offices, and in such manner, as God hath prescribed in his vvord: But now those will exe­cute a ministerie, which have not rightly been called by the Church, whereof they stand Ministers, according to their owne account and doctrine: which hold (as before) that a people with­out Officers have no warrant from God to make or depose Mini­sters.

5 We had learned that it vvas grosse error and notorious ab­surditie, 5. Apol. p. 113. & 116 n. 112. either to hold the popish Church to be a true Church, having a true ministerie, and true Sacraments, or els that men must admit of rebaptising: But now wee have heard, that the Baptisme of the Popish Church is true Baptisme (by which we are bound to communion) or els that men must be rebaptised: and that the Church of Rome is the Church of God, because Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God.

6 We had learned that all particular Congregations are by all meanes convenient to have the counsel and help one of6. Conf. art. 38.[Page 24]another, in all needfull affaires of the Church, as mēbers of one bodie in the cōmon faith: yet here when differences had arisen about our cōmon faith, and could not amongst our selves be cōposed, they would not desire nor consent to have desired the help of our sister Church at Leyden, althovgh it were instantly urged by many members, that their assistance should be had.

And when without their consent the help of that Church was obteyned, & they laboured our peace, & a waie of peace was agreed off between the Churches, this agrement and peace was not stood unto but reversed by them, contrarie to our wil, & to the wil and liking of the Church at Leyden, as the same Church can testifie for us.

Wherefore after long disputing these matters, when no waie of peace could by us be found to continue together in the truth & holynes. But lamentable Dissipation of the Church & members began to growe, to the dishonour of Gods name, & wounding of our harts, we followed the commandement of the Apostle which sayd, I beseech you brethren, marke them diligently which cause divisions & offences, contrarie to the doctrine which we have learned, and avoyde them. Rom. 16.17. And have sithens laboured to build up our selves in the holie faith, where­unto God hath called us, in love & peace, mourning for the great scandall and reproch which Sathan hath wrought by this breach amongst us.

Thus have I shewed you the fountaine of our sorrowes, which God for our sinnes hath brought upon us. He look upō us in mer­cie, & pittie the dispersion of Sion. And you as you have knowen the truth, which is sealed to your conscience, so abide therein faithfull unto the end, knowing it is the lot of Gods people thus to be exercised with troubles in it self, which if we beare with pati­ence and constansie & doe overcome, our portion shall be in the tree of life, which is in the midest of the Paradise of God.

THe 23 article of the Confession of our faith (whereto also our Apologie agreeth, page 46.47.) professeth that eve­rie Christian congregation hath povver to elect & ordeyne their ovvne ministerie, &c. & upon desert againe to depose, yea & excommunicate them. These have defen­ded that a Congregation without Ministers can not ordeyne offi­cers. And that if the Eldership fall into heresie or wickednesse, the whole Congregation cannot depose nor excōmunicate them. And that a Congregation, without an Eldership, cannot excommuni­cate any wicked person whatsoever.

2. The 24 article (confirmed in our Apologie, page 60.62.63.) professeth that the povver to receiue in, or to cut off a­ny member, is given to the vvhole bodie together of eve­rie Christian Congregation, Mat. 18.17. &c. These have pleaded for the Eldership to be the Church, Mat. 18. & to have both rightfull power and able power to excommunicate, though without & against the consent of the bodie of the Congregation.

3. The 29 article (as also our Apologie page 51.52.) pro­fesseth that the Hierarchie of Archbishops, Lordbishoppes, Priests, &c. are a straunge and Antichristian Ministerie & Officers, not instituted by Christs Testament, nor placed in or over his Church. These have placed over them one that was made Priest by a Lordbishops ordination, so as because of it they did not ordeyne or impose hands on him, when at the same time they ordeyned and imposed hands on others, whom together with him they set over the Church.

4. The 31 article (and also our Apologie, page 109.) pro­fesseth that such ecclesiasticall assemblies as remaine so in cōfusion & bondage under that Antichristian Ministerie, Courts, Canons, &c. cānot be esteemed true visible Chur­ches, [Page] &c. These now pleade not onely for them, but for Rome it self, to be the true Church of God.

5. The 32 article (whereto our Apologie agreeth, page 52.53.54.) testifyeth that all such as haue received any of those false Offices (of Lordbishops, Priests, &c.) are to give over and leaue them: and so hath it been practised heer before by all such Priests as came to our fayth & Church: now one is Minister over them, ordeyned Priest by the Prelates, as is before said.

6. The 33 article (which our Apologie also confirmeth, page 45.) professeth that people being come forth of the Anti­christiā estate, &c. are vvillngly to joyne together in Chri­stian communion and orderly covenant, & to unite them­selues into peculiar and visible congregations, &c. These haue pleaded that all are bound to communion, by vertue of their baptisme received in the Church of Rome, or other Antichristiā assemblies.

7. The 35 article (confirmed also in our Apologie, page 46.47.48.) professeth that a people so joyned together, may proceede to choise & ordination of Officers, &c. Now these pleade, that the people may not proceede to ordination of Officers, except they haue Officers before to doe it.

8. In our Apologie, page 113, it vvas maynteyned to be grosse errour, and notorious absurditie, eyther to hold the Popish Church to be a true Church, having a true Ministe­rie and true Sacraments; or els that men are unbaptised, & must admit of the Anabaptists rebaptisation. These haue themselues, much objected to us, that eyther the Church and Ba­ptisme of Rome is true, or else we must be rebaptised: Both which we still deny.

9. The 38 article of our Confession, professeth that Con­gregations are by all meanes convenient to haue the coun­sel & help one of another in all needfull affaires, &c. The practise of this was was denyed, when in our greatest need & trouble they would not consent to haue the coūsel & help of the Eng­lish [Page 26]Church at Leyden, which professeth the same fayth with us.

• 1. Before our parting, vve offered, that notvvithstanding our diffe­rences of judgment, that vve vvould continue together, if our former practise might be reteyned: but this vvas refused.
• 2. We desired that then we might haue a peaceable parting: and to be tvvo distinct Congregations, each practising, as they vvere persvva­ded, yet nourishing brotherly loue and unitie: This also they vvould not agree to, unlesse vvee vvould leaue this citie.
• 3. We procured, though vvithout their consent, the help of the En­glish Church at Leyden, vvho laboured our peace: a waie of peace by these themselues propounded, & by the Church of Leyden & us agreed to, these after reversed, & stood not unto, unlesse vve vvould goe dvvell out of this Citie. And although in the treatie of the Agreement it vvas testifyed by the Elders of that Church, that unlesse it vvere to the appa­rant undoing of us, and of our families, vve should not be dismissed a­gaine to dwell here: yet because vve would not absolutely promise to leaue this Citie, they vvould not stand to the agreement vvhich them­selues had mad [...].

THese are the Articles & Objections, that are in the printed copie aforesayd. VVhich therefore vve had not thought to haue printed againe. But vvhen vve had finished this book, vve received out of England from another friend, another of M. A. his letters sent thither, vvherein these also are set dovvne, in this maner & order, and in the same vvords, vvith very litle alteration thereof. VVe considered also that in the Ansvver here follovving, there is often reference made to the printed copie of these Articles and Exceptions: and that therefore it vvould be good for the Reader, to haue thē here readie at hand. VVhereupon vve thought it not amisse to print thē again, and to advertise those that haue the books, to insert them betvveen C. & D. if it be not alreadie done to their hands.

Novv follovveth the Ansvver: vvhich vvas first made to the former letter, according to the sixe particulars thereof: but is since inlarged by reason of this printed copie afore­said. Concerning vvhich also vve could note & ansvver [Page]more and other things then novv vve haue done in this shortnes of time. As, about some speciall respects & uses in some cases to be had of the Fathers of families, or of the chiefest & fittest of them: (as upon occasion some of us spake in the reasoning had among us): Also, that vvheras they vvould seem (in their letters & exceptions) as if they had desired peace and accord vvith us, yet besides all the things noted hereafter about their dealing,Pag. 74.75. &c. this also is re­membred, that vvhen vve vvere treating of some vvaie of accord, some of them publikly sayd, they vvould never yeeld thereunto, unles vve vvould revoke our agreement about the understanding of Mat. 18.17. and that also as an errour. VVhich vve could not yeelde unto: as may be perceived by the agreement it self, vvhich is hereafter set dovvne, page 95.96. &c. But omitting novv to speak any further of these or other things, that might also be noted about their objections and dealing: vve vvill for the pre­sent onely desire the Reader (about the particulars) still to remēber that vvhich sometimes vve haue mentioned here,Pag. 44. & 45. &c that extraordinarie cases must haue their vvarrant accordingly, & that the things concerning a people vvith­out officers vvere left to further consideratiō among us, & needed not by us novv be stood upon, seeing our estate & question vvas of the ordinarie government of a Church established vvith Officers. For vvhich also see the Treatise on Mat. 18.17. tovvard the end thereof. And novv read the ansvver of the foresayd letters and objections, as here it follovveth.

TOwching them that haue divided them selues from us, and M. A. vvriting unto you therabout, there are divers things of weight which you should do well carefully to ob­serve. And first how they having left us up­on two particular matters (concerning the Churches government, and the exposition of Mat. 18.17.) they doe not directly keep unto them, as they ought: ney­ther answere the things printed thereabout, so long since. VVhereunto both vve, and all that loue the truth, and de­sire their conversion, must be carefull to keep & hold thē. And even by this their dealing it may appeare, how need­full that our publication of the matter was, both for mani­festation of the truth held by us, & for meeting with their clamours, and all their disorderly and unapproveable cour­ses, so much affected by them.

Secondly, it must be remembred, that our profession al­waie hath been, and must be, to have the word of God for our direction in all things; by it to trie all things, to keep that vvhich is good; and to refuse and redresse whatsoever is evill, or any way erring therefrom: (For which see the Praeface of our Confession at the end of it: And in the Apologie pag. 13. & 41: as also the Answer to Thomas White, pag. 36.) So as there is no weight in it to say, Thus we held here­tofore; & now we hold thus: unlesse it could be shewed, that it is against the word of God, that which now is held by us. Nay seeing the faith of this Church, is that onely which [Page 26]is groūded upon the vvord of God, in the vvritings of the Prophets & Apostles; & so our faith is the cōmon & aunci­ent faith, vvhich vvas held by Israel of old, & by the Primi­tive churches since the cōming of Christ, it followeth ther uppō, that vvherin so ever we have swarved in faith or pra­ctise therfrō, it hath bē our aberratiō, & not our faith indeed.

Thirdly, concerning the speciall particular in question, our auncient profession hath been,Cons. a [...]t. 17. & 19. that the Church is to be governed onely by those lawes and Officers, that the Lord hath appointed in his word, and by none other. From vvhich how­soever vve have erred in our practise, yet this is our aunci­ent faith: so as that vvhich novv vve doe, is to reteyne our euncient fayth, & to reforme our practise according there­unto, as vve are bound daily to grow in grace and in obedi­ence of the fayth. And for our practise also, if vve vvould insist upon it, our auncient practise it self vvas othervvise, then as lately of a fewe yeeres it had been: vvhich later course the people that are departed frō us vvould have had us to reteyne. And so they them selves vvould have had us kept a later, and leave our auncienter practise. Thus much also vve vvrote to Leyden before the division vvas made, & then Mr. Ainsvv. himself subscribed unto it.

Fourthly, observe in their exceptions against us, if they be not (almost all of them) such as the Anabaptists vvould object in much like manner. And a vveake cause it must needs be, that relies upon the Anabaptists, or anie o­ther erroneous grouds. Hovv much better had they done, if they had considered vvith themselues) that vvhē Christ himself taught doctrine vvhich was not onely soūd & true, but evident also & cōfortable to such as could understand it aright, yet many of his disciples vvhen they heard it, said, This is an hard saying, who can hear it? & so both murmured at it, & were so offended with it, as they wēt back, & walked no more vvith him: Ioh. 6.60.62.66. Or if they had regar­ded that which M. Ains. hath well observed (in his Arrowe pag. 4. [Page 27] against Idolatrie) that Sathā hath separated mē frō the Church, as by other meanes,1 King. 12.27, 28.29 Iude v. 19 Heb. 10.25. so also by causing them to withdraw and schisme them selues for some pretented cause or quarrel, as did the Israelites, & others after them &c.

Fiftly if we should set our selves to make exceptiōs against thē, as they haue done against us: we could sēd & spread our private letters (as they doe) accōpanied with more sound & better observatiōs against thē, touching such things as have passed amōg us. As for exāple, a litle to imitate & resemble their veyn of vvriting, thus: Many troublesome daies & ful of contentiō hath God exercised us here together withall, vvhiles we could not be brought in singlenes of hart, vvith humilitie to obey the governours, & observe the govermēt prescribed in his vvord, & to seek him in the midest of our pilgrimage vvith love & peace. For love of preeminence which hath always troubled the church, hath also troubled us, vvhiles the people that should be under the Governors, vvould be over & above them, &c.

For 1. vvhereas vve had learned & professed that Christ was the onely king & Lord of his Church, Conf. art. 10, 17.19.20. Con­terp. pag. 175.176. and in o­ther Trea­tises every where as Defen. a­gainst M. Sm. p. 126 127.128. & had left ūto it amōg mē but a ministerial governmēt, & that all the multitude of the mēbers, the saincts, ought to obey & submit to the Eldership in everie church: Now we haue lately bē taught,In their dispute a­gainst us & in M. Rob. Iu­stif. 217.225. &c. that the peo­ple as kings have povver one over another; and that the saincts being kings are superiour to their Officers, because the order of kings is the highest order or estate in the church: & so an order superior unto, & above the order of Officers or Eldership. Also, that the Church may in relatiō to the Officers being servants therein, be called a Lord &c. vvhich things they affirme for proof of their opinion, tou­ching the points in questiō betweē us about the Churches government. And vvheras vve have still professed, that the people vvere inferiour and ūder the officers; novv vve have had it much urged about the questiō cōtroverted, that the people are superior & above thē. Thus to advāce the people [Page 28]one over another as kings, and to make them superlours, aboue their Governours, and to intitle them with kingly and Lordly power in the outward policie & affaires of the Church and members thereof (whereas Christ hath given his Church no other but a ministeriall power & governe­ment) what is it els, but in deed to set up such Churches & people as so manie Idols? Like as Mr. Ainsw. sheweth a­gainst the Prelates,Mr. A. At­rovve a­gainst Idol. pag. 19. & 20. that Idols are set up with impietie, when a­mong men, one is set up as Head of the Church, others as Arch­bishops, and Lords spirituall, &c. For doth it not thus come to passe, that as the Prelates on the one hand, so the people on the other hand, doe even become Idols: whiles both of them runne to extremities in such advauncing of them­selves, & neyther of thē will keep or be kept in the meane, & in the ministeriall way, which the Lord hath appointed in his word?

Confes. art. 24.2 VVe professed heretofore, that Christ gave the power of receiving in & cutting off to the whole bodie together of eve­rie Christian Congregation, & not to any one or most members sequestred from the whole, &c. Now we haue been taught, that in cases of question and controversie, the greater part of the people are the Church, though all the El­ders and other brethren be against them, and it being graunted of all, that with the Church is the power, that greater part of the people (though never so erroneously caried) being the Church, they have the povver, and so they may receiue in and cut off, though all the Elders and other brethren (it may be but one fewer, and of much bet­ter judgment) be against it.

M. Ains. Conterp. p. 177.3. VVe vvrote heretofore, that the Elders have the reyns of government committed to them: Now wee are taught, that the government of the Church is not Aristocraticall; yea that the people as kings haue the povver, and the grea­ter part, of the people (though in error) are the Church: as [Page 29]is noted before. And so then by their opinion will follow, that the greater part of the people, yea that all the people, being kings, haue the reynes in their hand; & may decide, stay, determine, and conclude all matters of controversie in the Church: though all the Elders & other brethren be against them.

Cons. art. 34. Plea for infāts p. 180. to 185. Cō ­te [...]p. pag. 177.4 VVe professed heretofore that no Sacraments should be ministred untill the Pastors or Teachers were chosen and or­deyned into their Office. Now it is hield by some, that seing all the holie things of God are the Churches, and people without Officers are a Church, therefore they may with­out Officers haue the use of the Sacraments and all the ho­lie things of God: & consequently may receive in by Ba­ptisme, confirme by the Lords Supper, cast out by excom­munication &c. And in this writing sent unto you, it may be observed, how they inferre that people without Officers may cast out, and therefore may receive in, there being one power for both.

Conf. art. 21. Con­terp. pag. 176.177.5 VVe had learned that none may usurp or execute a mi­nisterie, but such as are rightly called by the Church wherof they stand ministers, unto such Offices, and in such manner, as God hath prescribed in his word: Now it is held by some, that people out of office, may execute all the works, and duties of the ministerie, for Baptisme, Lords Supper, Cēsures &c. And these men in their second exception here vvrite, there is one power for receiving in, & casting out, & that peo­ple without Officers may doe both, as is observed before.

Conf. art. 1.10, 17, 18, 19, 21, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27.34, 36. & through­out the Conf. A­pol, & other of our Treatises, as Defence against Mr. Sm. pag. 10, 13, 88, &c.6 VVe learned and used heretofore, to applie to our estate and use the things that the Scriptures teach concer­ning the Governours and people in Israel: Now vve are excepted & opposed against, if we doe so vvith these exce­ptions, and the like, viz. that they had civill auctoritie and government, which the Church hath not; that they could not [Page 30]in Israel forgive one anothers sinne, as we can now: that the people now have more power, then in Israel, because now we fol­low Christ into heaven, And yet the people were typi­cally cari­ed in by the Hye­priest in the preti­ous stones on his shoulders & brest: as the most holy place it self vvas a type of heaven. whereas the people might not follow the High priest into the most holie place &c. And vvhat if any o­ther vvould say, that by like reason the Elders novv should haue more povver, then the Elders in Israel, because the Elders novv follovv Christ into heaven, vvhereas the El­ders then might not follovv the high priest into the most holie place? And that Kings should have more povver nov in religion, then the Kings of Israel, because Kings novv follovv Christ into heaven, vvhereas the Kings then might not follovv the hiepriest into the most holie place: no nor so much as into the holie place, to come to the al­tar to offer incense. 2 Chron. 26. And note here also, that Christ and the Apostles reasoning from the civil estate of the Governours & people of Israel, & applying the things of it to the kingdome and Church of Christ, & to the Go­vernours and people of the Church novv, should (by this nevv learning of these men) be thought to misapplie those Scriptures, and places so alledged by them. As Mat. 21.24. Iohn 10.34. Act. 1.20. Ephes. 12.13.19.20.21. and in a number the like places. Plea for Infants p. 166.167 268, &c. Treat. a­gainst the Anabap. p, 16. &c. & some grounds tending this way in the A­pol. p. 108 &c. & in Answer to M. Iacob p. 7, & 13, &c.

7 VVe held that the Baptisme of Rome vvas as true Baptisme, as circumcisiō in the Apostasie of Israel vvas true circumcision, and needed not to be renounced and repea­ted: novv vve vvere taught, that the Baptisme aforesaid is an Idol. And vve knovv that all Idols, yea and all monu­ments of idolatrie, are to be renounced and rejected. Esa. 30.22. And an Idol is nothing in the wold, sayth the Apo­stle, 1 Cor. 8, 4. so as then such baptisme is nothing, & such people are an unbaptised people, & ought therefore (vvith the Anabaptists) to get themselues baptised.

Thus if I would follow their course, you may see I could note dovvne some doctrines and assertions, not all of the [Page 31]soundest, vvhich our opposites have of late delivered and given forth: although I have hitherto held my peace there about. Neyther vvould I yet publish them, if there vvere or might be hope of their repentance and amendement. but for your better information concerning them & their dealing, I have thus impar [...]ed them unto you. By vvhich any may consider vvhether it vvere not high time for us to look to these persons, and to these things, vvhen they vere come to this passe, & grovven to such an heigth among us.

Now next for ansvver of their exceptions sent unto you against us: though it be not so meet to be done in a private Letter, seeing vve have published the causes of the division they made, whereunto they have not yet given answer: yet have I thought it not amisse, upon this occasion, and unto you (as your case stands) to vvrite somevvhat thereabout.

For the first therefore, which is made by comparing to­gether the understanding of Mat. 18, 17. with the Confessi­on, Art. 24. and the Apol. pag. 62.63. I haue already vvritten and published a Treatise concerning the exposition of that Scripture: vvhere also the reasons alledged in the Apolo­gie are purposely and particularly treated of: to vvhich I referre you thereabout. And vvhat dealing is this of theirs, that having made such a division, as they have done, they leave the Treatise unansvvered, which was purposely writ­ten upon that occasion, and argument, and yet cease not privately thus to insinuate, as they doe? Besides, if for their vvonted Phrase (the Church of Elders) they vvould use such termes, as othervvhere the Scriptures in our translations haue, and as the vvord it self doth signifie, namely, the Con­gregation of Elders, or the Assemblie of Elders, or the like: then both themselues & others might sooner perceive the vanitie of their error, and the light of the truth against thē. [Page 32]Neyther should they forget, hovv M. Ainsvvorth himself, in his Ansvver to Mr. Bernard, shevveth that the vvord is sometime so used for the Congregation or Assemblie of Elders and Governours, Mr. Ainsw. Conterpoys. pag. 113. Lastly, you may observe in the Article of our Confession here alledged,Conf. art. 24. that for the declaration and proof thereof these Scriptures among other are cited, Psal. 122.3. Lev. 20.4, 5. & 24.14. Numb. 5.2.3. Deut. 13.9. all vvhich doe directly carry us for this matter to the Church of Israel and constitution thereof: vvhich novv (through love of their error) they vvould not be brought unto, for the con­sideration and deciding of the matter betvveen us.

Observe also hereabout, that the povver of receiving in and cutting off given to the Church of Israel, vvas by them used and to be performed according to order, and not any vvay to vveaken, but to stablish the Elders auctoritie. And vve must not be straungers from the policie of Israel, Eph. 2.12. &c. Yea this verie instruction in Mat. 18.17. is such, as it accordeth vvith and hath reference unto the grounds and ordinances of God, taught of old by Moses & the Prophets: as is shevved in particular in the Treatise a­foresaid, and in the Churches agreement published there about: So as their opposition against us therein, is indeed against Israel, against Moses, & against the Prophets: And vvhether thē it be not also consequently against the Lord and his ordinances prescribed in his vvord, let all indiffe­rent men judge. Such is their error, and so great is their transgression and iniquitie.

And hitherto of the first Objection: vvhich in the prin­ted copie, is the second. VVhere furthermore observe, hovv vvhen they doe here quote the Scriptures alledged for proof of the 24 Article of the Confession, they doe it thus, Mat. 18.17. &c. vvhereas in the Confession, it is thus, Psal. 122.3. &c. VVhich is to be noted in divers re­spects: [Page 33]First, because it sheweth, that at the setting downe of the Confessiō, the Scriptures of the old testament were ob­served for the confirmation of it, asvvell as of the newe. Secondly, that Mat. 18.17. is so to be understood, as may agree vvith the other Scriptures, & namely vvith Psal. 122.3. Lev. 20.4.5. and 24.14. Numb. 5.2.3. Deut. 13, 9. vvhich Scriptures are in this article also alledged, and joy­ned vvith that of Mat. 18.17. Thirdly, that it must be understood vvith agreement and proportion to the order and manner of Israel, vvhereof these scriptures doe directly speak. Fourthly, that therefore our understanding of it novv, as vve doe, is (in the truth of the point it self) accor­ding to our auncient sayth: and not theirs vvho vvould make us straungers from Israel, and vvould persvvade us that Christs doctrine in Mat. 18.17. is a nevve rule for the Churches novv, vvhich Israel had not. And that these people therefore have in deed left the ancient faith, which thing they object unto others.

Moreover by the Scriptures asoresayd joyned together and compared vvith the estate of Israel, it doth appeare (& reason it self doth teach it) that we must distinguish betweē the sentence of excommunication, and betvveen the exe­cution thereof: as betvveen the sentence of death, of le­prosie, or the like, and betvveen the execution follovving thereupon. Novv in Israel the Elders in causes of death, & the Priests in case of Leprosie, had a rightfull povver to give out the sentence of death and of leprosie and the like, according to the lavv of God, vvithout asking the peoples consent, yea and though it should have been vvithout and against the consent of the people, vvhom they call here the bodie of the Congregation. Deu. 1.16. and 17.8-12. and 24.8. with 2 Chron. 26.16-20. Levit. 13. &c. And vvhen the Elders and Priests had so pronounced the sen­tence according to the vvord of God and dutie of their of­fice [Page 34]then vvas it for the people to performe the execution accordingly: as may be seen in the Scriptures aforesaid, & many other the like.

Thus also the Elders may now by vertue & dutie of their Office give out the sentence of excomunicatiō, according to the lavv of God, and the people should accordingly put it in execution, by avoyding the excōmmunicated persons till they repent, &c. Or if any of the people can except a­gainst the Elders proceeding therein, they are to be heard: as in the foresaid Treatise upon Mat. 18, 17. I have vvrittē heretofore. VVhere note further, hovv in that Trea­tise it is often mentioned (& particularly in our agreement about the understāding of this Scripture of Mat. 18.17.) that we should alway understand and observe these things according as in Israel (in the due proportion & perpetuall equitie thereof): and therefore not to abridge the brethren of their assent or any right that doth apperteyne unto them by the word of God: but to doe all things accōrding to the rules prescribed therein, &c.

And here let me then aske of this people thus divided hereabout: first, vvhether in Israel the Lord abridged the people of their right & libertie any way, in that by his word the Elders and Priests might admonish sinners, & give sen­tence of death, and leprosie, and the like things, vvithout asking or taking the peoples consent thereunto. Second­ly, vvhether the people have any more right and authoritie in the Churches government novv, then the people of Is­rael had in those dayes: Thirdly, vvhether the people of Israel vvere not kings & priests, even a kingdome of priests, and a holie nation, asvvel as the Christian people are now: Exod. 19, 5, 6. Psal. 149.1. &c. with 1 Pet. 2.9.10. Rev. 1.6. Fourthly, vvhether the Churches power, vvhich the Lord hath given unto it, be not a ministeriall povver onely? Fiftly, vvhether the Elders povver be not ministeriall un­der the Lord, in and for the Church, so as it is the Lords [Page 35]primarily, the Churches secondarily, and the Officers mi­nisterially or instrumentally for the Lord & the Church, vvhose Officers they are: and that therefore there is no vveight in their Objections about the Elders povver, as if it vvere not the Churches, and that vvhich perteyneth to the bodie of the Congregation: but that in deed it is the Churches, & so to be ministred by the Officers vvhom the Lord hath set in his Church, to minister in his name, for the Churches use and benefit: and that they vvhich op­pugne the Officers herein, doe not onely oppose against them, but even against the Lord, & the Church, for which they vvould seem so much to plead. And finally, vvhe­ther the Opposites in the Churches government, as the Anabaptists in the Sacraments, vvould not make us aliens from the common vvealth of Israel, & that so there should not be one bodie of them and us, one Lord over them and us, one sayth of theirs and ours, &c, as the Apostle hath taught us, Ephes. 2.12-22. and 3, 6. and 4.4. &c. VVhich how absurd and ungodly it vvere to hold, vve vvish they may in time vvel consider with them selves, afore moe er­rors and further evils grovve upon them, then yet are.

Furthermore, let me also aske, vvhy they doe not here speak of themselves, (asvvell as of us) vvhat they pleaded to be the Church spoken of, Mat. 18.17. as namely, hovv some of thē taught publikly, that it is the whole Church & Congregation, alledging to that end, Num. 15.33. & 27.2. and 35.12. as also, that Christ in this place, speaketh of the kingdome of heaven, Mat. 18.1. &c. and that ther­fore we are to understand it of the whole Church: How some also pleaded, that it must be understood, of men, wo­men & children that can sorrovve & rejoyce vvith others: pressing to this purpose, that vvhich Paul speaks of the bo­die and parts thereof sorrovving and rejoycing one vvith another, 1 Cor. 12.22-26. And furthermore hovv it vvas [Page 36]also affirmed, that in cases of question and controver­sie, the greater part of the people (though vvithout & against all the Elders and other brethren) are the bodie and the Church, there spoken of, yea though they be in errour, &c. And novv in their exceptions pleading about it, they speak of the whole Congregation, and of the bodie of the Con­gregation, in an opposition against the Eldership: and so seeme here to imply also such an understanding thereof. Touching all which, it were long to rehearse, eyther what reasoning vve had, or vvhat might be shevved about these poynts. But some fevve things I vvill note thereabout.

And first, if this rule befound in the book of Numbers and lavves of Israel, as by the doctrine & allegations afore­said appeareth, then is it not a nevv rule, first given in Mat. 18.17. as vvas held and urged both often and earnestly a­mong us. Secondly, these Scriptures in the book of Num­bers, speak of civil cases and government: and yet vvhen vve alledge these or the like about the Elders, as they doe about the people, they except against us, as if vve misap­plyed the Scriptures, and give the Elders civill authoritie: vvhich I suppose they vvill not give to the people, though they make such allegations about them in this question, as vve doe about the Elders.Num. 15.33. & 27.2. & 35.12. Thirdly, touching these Scrip­tures and the like, it is certaine, that the sinners and pleas in Israel vvere brought before the Congregation of Elders to be judged by them, as may appeare by these Scriptures them selves, being compared vvith Num. 36.2. Deut. 19.12.17. and 1.12.16. and 16.18. and 17.8-12. Iosh. 20.4.5.6. 1 Sam. 2.25. 2 Chron. 19.5-11. Psal. 82.1-6. Mat. 5.22. Lnk. 22.66. Act. 6.12. &c.

Moreover,Num. 15.33. and 27.2. tvvo of the Scriptures alledged, speak of the people of Israel vvhen they vvere in the wildernes, vvhere they vvere sixe hundred thousand men, beside children, Exod. 12.37. And would they have us thinke, that this [Page 37]people came together to hear examine and judge the cases of sinne and question there spoken of, or that the parties there mentioned were brought or came unto all that Con­gregation, as they vvould have the causes of sinne and sin­ners to be brought unto the vvhole Church and congrega­tion among us, yea and the people to be bound to come & judge the brethrens causes, that doe fall out from time to time?

And for the third Scripture so alledged by them,Num. 35.12. if it be compared vvith Deut. 19.4-12. it maketh the poynt yet more playne against them selues. For Moses speaking of one and the same matter in both those places,Num. 25.12. useth in the one place the vvord Congregation, & in the other the terme of Elders: as if he vvould himself tell us, that he speaks of the Congregation of Elders.Deut. 19.12. To vvhich end also see Iosh. 20.4.5.6. where the same matter is againe spoken of: & Deut. 19.15-18. vvhere after the treating of the former matter, he giveth a generall rule for the cases that might fal out among them. And vvhether novv vve should beleeve Moses or them, let themselves judge.

Touching the phrase of the Kingdome of heaven. Mat. 18.1. &c. Mat. 18.1. &c. hovvsoever many have ben caryed thereby to think that this is a nevv rule, and perteyning onely to the Chur­ches of the Gospel since Christ, and that the people now are otherwise interessed in the Churches government then they vvere in Israel of old: yet it is evident that the same phrase is also spoken of the state and Church of the Ievves, Mat. 22.2. &c. and that therefore such collections from this manner of speach are not sound.

And vvhat is there here taught by Christ, that the Iewes should not be carefull to observe, asvvell as vve? Should not they be humble and harmlesse, as litle children, and so enter into the kingdome of heaven? Mat. 18.1-4. with Psal. 131.1.2. Prov. 15.33. and 16.19. and 18.12. and [Page 38]25.6.7. 1 Sam. 12.3.4. Psal. 138.6. Should they not avoyd giving offiences to others: & vvhen others offended thē, should they not deale with them, and shevve them their sinne; And if they did not repent and amend, bring them to the Congregation of Elders, to be further dealt vvith ac­cording to their demerit; Or if they did repent, forgive them? Mat. 18.5-22. with Lev. 19.14.16.17.18. Deut, 19.15-19. and 21.18-21. and 25.5-9. with Ruth 3.9-13. and 4.1-13. 1 Sam. 2.25. Esa. 58.6.7.

And further in the same chapter it may be observed,Mat. 18.23. &c. that Christ teaching hovv God requireth men to forgive one another their sinnes (under the similitude of a king taking account of his servants) propoundeth it by the same phrase of the kingdome of heaven. And this also is a dutie vvhich God required of the Ievves alvvayes, asvvell as of us novv. Lev. 19.18. Exod. 23, 4.5. Psal. 7.4. Act. 7, 26.

And in the next chapter,Mat. 19.13.14. Christ speaking of litle childrē that vvere brought unto him, sayth that of such is the king­dome of heaven. VVhich vvas alvvayes true of the infants and children of the Ievves, as of ours novv. But if any vvould gather hereupon, for babes and litle children (as some doe for the men, vvomen, & greater childrē upon the like maner of speach) that therefore they are to have a hand in the Churches government, and that the causes of sinne and question falling out in the church should be brought unto them (asvvell as to the Elders) and they bound to be present to hear and judge all such causes arising among the brethren: I suppose the people them selves, that hold the former opinion, and make such collections to maynteyne it for the vvhole Congregation, yet vvould think it absurd thus to reason about the lesser children: although they be of the bodie of the Congregation, & that of such also is the kingdome of heaven.

Againe in the next chapter save one,Mat. 21.43. Matthevv sheweth [Page 39]hovv Christ sayd, that the kingdome of God should be taken from the Ievves, and given to (the Gentiles) a nation that should bring forth the fruits thereof. Mat. 21, 43. So as then by the doctrine of Christ himself, it is one and the same kingdome of God, under vvhich the Ievves vvere, & vve novv are. The differences about some vvorldly cere­moniall and mutable things, neyther doe nor can carrie vvith them an abolition of the things spirituall morall and perpetuall: Neyther may vve at any hand or under any pretence suffer our selves to be made aliants from the com­mon vvealth of Israel, as is noted before.

For the other Scripture,1 Cor. 12. chap. 1 Cor. 12, chap. the Apostles purpose is not there to speak of the cases and pleas about sinne, and of the maner of dealing therein (as in Mat. 18.15; 16, 17. and as our question vvas among us) but of the diversitie and inaequalitie of gifts & functions given by the Lord in and to his church for the help and service of all, to the building up of the mysticall bodie of Christ. VVhere­upon the Apostle shevveth it also by the similitude & pro­portion of the members of the naturall bodie, and of the severall faculties thereof: vvhich he applyeth and exten­deth, even to the feeblest members, and to the least and youngest children of the Church that are but newly bapti­sed, 1 Cor. 12.13-22. &c. to vvhom yet he appointeth not the cases of sinne and pleas of the other members of the church to be brought for judgement & censure, as these men hereupon vvould inferre, and as the matter in questi­on is about Mat. 18, 17.

Moreover, the things there spoken of the bodie, and of the parts thereof, might likevvise of old be applyed to Is­rael according to their estate; and they vvere then bound accordingly to vvalke, as members of one and the same bo­die, affording all help service and comfort they could one unto another. Yet this might not then, nor may not now, [Page 40]hinder nor pervert the ordinance of God about the Elders hearing and judging the causes of their brethren, & censu­ring them according to their demerit: but in deede it doth much more strongly establish it, inasmuch as the Gover­nours are by the Lord set in the Church for that use, and so for the benefit of the whole: as also, that all the members have not gifts fit for examining of persons and deciding of cases and questions that doe fall out, and yet notvvithstan­ding are members in the bodie, and have othervvise their good use, being fitly imployed, and must be holpen of the rest as their need is, and be partakers of the gifts bestovved upon others, for their good and comfort.

And yet further, this Scripture is more direct against thē, in that it sheweth how in the Church some have a more chief place then others, as the head, & eyes, & hands in the bodie: & are therefore to be respected & imployed according to their gifts and place, vvherein God hath set them, 1 Cor. 12.14.—28. VVhich is litle regarded of them, vvho in cases of question and controversie (vvhere there is greatest need of most knovvledge and vvisedome) vvill then look vvhere the greatest number of the people is (though they may be of the most simple) and vvill have them to be the Church, and to haue the Churches povver and authoritie to give the sentence (yea albeit that all the Elders & other brethren of better judgment, but fevver in number, be against them): as if the multitude should still be follovved, & that there vvere no difference or inequa­litie of gifts, of Office, or other respect at all to be had VVhich how far it is from the intendement of this Scrip­ture alledged by themselues, let all that understand accor­ding to sobrietie judge.

And let these men if they vvill not be taught otherwise,1 Cor. 12. & cōpare vvith it, rom. 12. 3-8. yet learne of their ovvne bodies, from vvhich the Apostle borrovveth his similitude here: and there they shall see, [Page 41]that all the members of the bodie are not given or used for counsel and determination in the things that concerne it (though yet they have their other profitable use): where­upon it is, that vvhen some part of the bodie is hurt, the hand is not used or sought unto to see withall, nor the foot to heare, neyther doth the head take them to consult and determine vvhat to doe there about: but vvhen the head it self hath considered & determined (according to the gift & dutie thereof) then it useth the help of the hand or foot or any or all the members, according as there is need and occasion. And thus have all the members their good use & service in the bodie, being rightly used & applyed there­unto. But should novv hereupon the hands or feet say, be­cause they are not sought unto and employed to see hear & determine, as the eye, eare, and head are: that therefore they loose their right, and are not used or regarded as the mēbers of the bodie should? Yet after such a maner plead the people aforesaid, that they are vvronged & loose their right and libertie, if vvhen matters of sinne and question arise between brethren of the church, they be not sought unto, and bound to come together to hear and determine the cases, to examine and censure the persons so dealt vvithall.

Nay though the Elders sitte publickly to hear and judge such causes, and that it be left free for any of the people to come that vvil: yet they thinke they have injurie, unles that they be called upon and bound to come together; and that they also make inquisition and censure the causes and persons dealt vvithall; & that the greater number of their voyces (though vvithout and against all the Elders) be ta­ken for the Churches sentence, &c. VVhich in deed, what is it els but as if eyther the whole bodie should become one member, an eye, an eare, an head, or the like: or as if the foot should say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the [Page 42]bodie: or as if the hand should say, Because I am not em­ployed as the eye, eare, or head, therefore I lose my right, and am not used or esteemed in the bodie as I ought to be? Yea vvhat is it els, but to bring them selves in­to bondage (and in deed to bring an Antichristian ser­vitude on the people in the Church) vvhen it being left free unto them to come or not to come, yet that shall not suffice, unles they be bound thereunto, as is a­foresaid,

And so it shall not be ynough, that the Elders by their Office are bound unto it,Rom. 12, 7, 8. 1 Thes. 5.12.13. 1 Tim. 5.17.18. and ought to have mayn­tenance for the doing of it, and of the other duties of their Office: but the men must (vvithout any allow­ance for it) leave their trades and callings, the vvo­men their houses and samilies, the children their schoo­ling and employment, the servants their vvork and la­bour,As may come to passe in great cō ­gregatiōs & when many ca­ses are to be heard, &c. and must come together (though it should be day after day) to heare and judge the cases that fall out betvveen brother and brother, according to Mat. 18.17. For by this Scripture in 1 Cor. 12. chap. they vvill have it understood of men, vvomen, and children that can sorrovv and rejoyce vvith others, as before vvas shewed. And many moe things might be noted about this and the other Scriptures spoken of: but these few observations may suffice.

Yet afore I proceed, let me by this occasion note tvvo things more hereabout in generall. The one, that as it often cometh to passe vvith heretiks, schismatiks & An­tichristians, that the verie Scriptures alledged by them­selves, being searched and duly vveighed, they are fit & forceable against themselues: so it is fallen out vvith these men in this case: as may appeare by that vvhich hath ben sayd touching the Scriptures thus alledged by them. The other is a thing, vvhich M. Ainsvv. hath vvel observed a­bout [Page 43]Idolatrie, that it is a sinne which cleaveth fast to all flesh, Arrowe a­gainst Idol. ch. 2 p. 23. &c. so as the best in the world doe easily fall into it, doe take pleasure in it, and are hardly drawen from it: An example vvhereof may be seen in the people aforesaid, vvho being caryed vvith the love of their errour about the matter spoken of, vvould chuse bondage afore libertie (yea and a bondage accompanyed vvith many other evils ensuing upon men vvomen and children) rather then they vvould be dravven from the errour and Idol set up in their heart. But I hope their children (if not themselves) vvill in time grovv vvi­ser, hovv ever in other things it be too common, that the children remember their fathers altars and Idols, as the Prophet Ieremiah said of the people in his dayes. Ier. 17.2.

Let me also about the matters themselves concerning the greater part of the people, the vvhole Congrega­tion, or bodie thereof; the men, vvomen, and chil­dren of yeares; pleaded to be the Church spoken of, Mat. 18, 17. desire to knovv by vvhat Scriptures they vvill novv manifest and confirme it to such as are other­vvise mynded:If they speak of 1 Cor. 5, chap. (as some doe) that is purposely handled in the treatise on Mat. 18.17. as also, if the vvomen and children should in a controversie be the greater part, whether then they be the Church there spoken of; & have the Churches power and authoritie to excommunicate the men: and vvhether these persons divided not them selves from the Church, vvhen they left us; seeing vve vvere the greater number both of the Elders and people, vvhom they departed from: Also, vvhether the Elders be of the bodie of the Con­gregation, vvhereof they speak, or not (for here they seeme to make an opposition betvveen the bodie of the Congregation, and the Eldership): And if they be, vvhat place they have in the bodie, vvhether a supe­riour or inferiour place: And vvhether in the Congre­gation and presence of them, the vvomen and children have authoritie (by vertue of that rule, Mat. 18.17. to [Page 44]examine rebuke and admonish their husbands, parents, & masters, being there dealt vvithall for sinne: seeing the Church is told; and the vvomen and children are of the Church; and they that are of the Church there spoken of, may examine & admonish, & are to be heard & obeyed, &c.

Neyther let them thinke much, that I propound such questipns, or that I speak thus about vvomen and children &c. For they knovv, that such assertions and pleading vve have had from them, and that such opinions are among them. And vve knovv, that if they ansvver directly to the things here and before propounded, the truth vvill better appear, and the controversie be sooner ended between us: And what they hold & mainteyn concerning these things, is needefull for us still to insist upon, seeing that about the understanding of this Scripture of Mat. 18.17. they have so dealt and left us as they have done.

Other things I vvill omit, that might here also have their place and use: noting this onely, that it is a straunge & extraordinarie case, whē a controversie should so stand, as all the Elders should be one vvay, & all the people ano­ther way. And in extraordinarie cases, the course and war­rant from the vvord of God must accordingly be had. But vvhat is this to the ordinarie maner of government in the Church, vvhereof the question vvas among us, & vvhere­about it vvas particularly mentioned at the beginning, that our reasoning should be?

Lastly, vvhat vveight is there in this exception of theirs against our understanding of Mat. 18.17. more then might be against Israel of old, vvho could understand such spea­ches of the Congregation of Elders, vvithout impeaching any libertie of the people or falling into any errour against the truth? But I have spoken hereof before: and of this matter, more largely then I purposed: though yet not so largely as I might, considering the point it self, and hovv [Page 45]they have caryed themselves thereabout. Novv I vvill come to the next Objection.

II For the second, vvhich concerneth excommunication by a people without officers, I have in the foresaid Treatise vvritten particularly thereabout:Treat. on Mat. 18.17. vvhere also I have treated purposely and largely of the place of the Apologie, vvhich they have here alledged: so as that should first have ben ansvvered, afore they had thus dealt as they have done; especially, seeing that there I desired ansvver & confirma­tion of that opinion, vvriting in this sort about it, Where finde we in the Scriptures, that God hath thus laid upon the peo­ple without Officers to excommunicate? Where is the precept for it? Which be the examples of it? Or what are the grounds requiring and bearing it out? In the same place also I noted, that in the Scriptures we may observe not onely sundry exāples, shewing how it hath ben done by the Lord himself, and by his mi­nisters and Officers: but also divers ordinances & grounds di­recting and warranting us to doe likewise. The particulars vvhereof see in that Treatise; vvith divers other conside­rations and reasons thereabout. VVhich might have cau­sed them eyther to ansvver us, or at least (as there is noted) to consider vvith themselves how the Churches excommuni­cation can be administred by any but such as are the Lords and the Churches Officers and Overseers: and how people without Officers can chalendge to themselves the ministration of this, any more then of the Sacraments, &c.

And besides, you may percēive both by our churches e­state, and by particular note set dovvn in the said Treatise, that our controversie vvas about a Church established with Officers: and that it vvas before our parting agreed among us, to leave the things concerning people without Officers to fur­ther consideration. To vvhich also I do still referre it. One­ly where he sayth here, that our doctrine overthrowes the con­stitution [Page 46]of our Church, which was gathered and constituted by Christians without Officers, receiving in the repentant, and ca­sting out the disobedient, &c. I vvill hereupon note a fevve things briefly, to shevve the errour and vveaknes of their exception herein.

And first (omitting vvhat is sayd before) it vvere vvorth the knovving, by vvhom (or by vvhat Church) the first man or first tvvo men of this Church (whereof they speak) vvere received in, and by what povver. Secondly, it is knovven and not to be forgotten,Eph. 4.4.5 1 Cor. 10.1, 2. and 12, 13. Act. 2.41.42. that by our baptisme, as also by accord in the truth, vve are bound to communion, in any thing lavvfull (as God giveth occasion & opportu­nitie thereunto): vvhich thing vvas heretofore shewed unto them: though yet they have not learned it as they should. Thirdly, it is also playne and uudenyable, that to chuse or give voyces in election, is not a part of governe­ment, or a dutie peculiar to the governours of the Church, but an interest, povver, right, and libertie, that the saincts and people out of Office have and should use in elections, not onely at first, when they have no Officers, but alvvayes after in other elections also, even vvhen they have Officers over them. Lastly, seeing our doctrine overthrovveth not the constitution of the church of Israel afore Christ, nor of the primitive Churches after Christ, it cā not there­fore overthrovv the constitution of our Church, or of any other, that is accordingly built upon the foundation of the Apostles & Prophets, Iesus Christ himself being the head corner stone. Ephess. 2, 19, 20. By all vvhich you may see, hovv vayne & frivolous this their exception is. To which may be referred the first, sixt, and seventh of the Objections in the printed copie. And so touching them, observe the things spoken of here, and in the foresaid Treatise upon Mat. 18.17.

For the third, it being of much like nature vvith the se­cond before,III the same ansvver that is there given may suf­fice for it. Yet thus much I vvill acquaint you vvith fur­ther: that the like thing being objected here against me, and vvritten of unto us from the church at Leyden, I gave this ansvver unto it: viz, that the Church may excommuni­cate any Officer deserving it, as well as any other member. Also that if all the Officers doe joyntly transgresse and so persist, then the Church which did chuse them, may also depose and refuse them for beeing their Officers any longer, & may separate them­selues from them. But that the people may excommunicate all their Officers or whole Eldership together, I desired to see it shew­ed and warranted from the word of God. This vvas then an­svvered, & sent frō hence in a generall letter to the church at Leyden: as is knovven unto them, and vvas by Mr. Ainsw. himself also subscribed at that time, for my ansvver hereunto: hovvsoever novv they speake not of it. So far as chusing reacheth (which being not an action of govern­ment, may be done by people out of office) so far also may the refusing goe. And vvhatsoever (in extraordinarie ca­ses) is attempted further, must be approved by the vvord of God, that so it may be admitted.

And novv for the exception it self, (vvhich is here the third, but in the printed copie is the first): note these things moreover concerning it: that the particulars of the 23 Ar­ticle of our Confession here alledged, being found true in the Churches of Israel before Christ, and of the Gentiles since Christ: the exception made hereabout can not be of vvaight against this or any other Church established ac­cording to the vvord of God, as those vvere, but must be also against those churches vvithall. For which see & con­sider the Scriptures alledged in the Confession for confirma­tion thereof. And observe here also, whether it can be shewed by those or any other Scriptures, that any in Israel [Page 48]or in the primitive Churches did ordeyne Officers, or de­pose, or excomunicate eyther thē, or any vvicked persons deserving it, but such as vvere Governours and Officers a­mong them.

Which scripture vve have indeed thus al­ledged hereto­fore.If any insist upon Numb. 8.9.10. which of all other places is the likest, or onely like to be objected, because there it is sayd, the children of Israel shall put their hands upon the Levites: then note also further, that by this phrase of speach of the children of Israel, and other such speaches of the men of Israel, the tribes of Israel (and the like in the Scri­ptures) are the Elders of Israel often meant & understood. As for example, in another the like case, they vvhich are called the Elders of Israel, Lev. 9.1. are in the same chapter called the children of Israel, Lev. 9.3. where the Septuagint have in both places alike, the Senate or Eldership of Israel. As also Iosh. 7.23. where the Hebrevv hath the children of Israel, the Greek translation hath the Elders of Israel. And verie reason it self teacheth so to understand it. For othervvise hovv should so many hundred thousand of Israel, as then vvere of the people, eyther at once heare or doe the things there spoken of? And if it be sayd, some did it for the rest of Israel, then I aske, first, vvho those some vvere, but the Elders, vvhom Israel novv had. Exo. 3.16. and 4.29. Lev. 9.1. &c. and secondly, under vvhom they did it, but un­der the Lord, vvho set them over the people to minister & governe in his stead. Exod. 20, 12. Num. 11.16-30. Deu. 1.9-18. and 16.18. and 17, 12. and 19, 12.17. &c.

So likevvise they vvhich are called the men of Israel, Ios. 9, 6, 7, 14. are in the same chapter called the Princes of the Congregation, Ios. 9, 15, 18, 19, 21. And they vvhich are called the tribes of Israel, 2 Sam. 7.7. are othervvhere cal­led the Iudges of Israel, 1 Chron. 17.6. In like maner, that vvhich is sometimes said to be done by the people, Exod. 20.18, 19. 1 Sam. 8.7, 10, 19, 21. is othervvhere said to be [Page 49]done by the Elders Deut. 5.23. 1 Sam. 8, 4. In vvhich places & actions common reason also teacheth so to understand the speaches, as vvas shevved before. And in like sort may be observed, hovv the vvord Church or Congregation is di­vers times used for the Assemblie or Congregation of El­ders, Num. 35, 12, 24, 25, 29. with Deut. 19, 11.13.16.17. and 31.28.30. Iosh. 20.4.5.6. Psal. 82.1. 1 Chron. 29.1.6. with 28.1. &c. as is noted in the other Treatise on Mat. 18.17. And many such Synechdochicall speaches (vvhere the name of the vvhole is given to a part) may be observed in the Scriptures. VVhich vvhiles men vvill needs under­stand, according to the letter, they grow into many er­rours, some one vvaie, some another, as others also doe in other things, mistaking figurative speaches, as if they were spoken and should be understood literally.

And thus much I thought to vvrite further hereabout: And this also, that they should better observe the clauses particularly expressed in the article spoken of,Conf. art. 23. as namely that the electing and ordeyning of the Officers is to be ac­cording to the rules in Gods word prescribed, that deposition likevvise is to be by due order, and that the cutting off by ex­communication must be done orderly. VVhich clauses as they bynde us to shew by the Scriptures, that the people not being in office may chuse their Officers, as is proved both there, and in the Apologie heere cited, pag. 46.47. so doe they also binde these persons thus making exception, to shevv out of the vvord of God, like rules, practise, or vvarrant, of ordination, deposition, and excommunicatiō, ministred and performed by p [...]ople out of office. VVhich till they doe, vvhat vveight or use is there of their excepti­ons, save that it turnes to be a meanes for the truth to be better found out, and more cleared from tyme to tyme.

IV For the fourth, it is of like nature vvith the second and [Page 50]third herebefore: vvhere therefore see the ansvvers. And if they vvould here imply a particular matter concerning one of our Ministers, about imposition of hands: that is a point also left to further consideratiō among us: beside that it fell out since their departing from us: and therefore per­teynes not to the plea about their division, vvhich vvas made before. Yet notvvithstanding the ansvver vvhich follovves here to their fift and next exception, will both give some light to the poynt it self, and shew good reason of the needfull discussing thereof: which you shall doe well therefore to consider of as follovveth.

But first (by occasion of that which is printed) I will here annexe a litle more. For now they doe in particular expresse this matter, concerning one that was minister in the Church of England, and is since chosen Teacher of this Church, and received among us, vvithout any nevve imposition of hands. So novv refer hither to this Obje­ction, the third and fift in the copie that is printed. Tou­ching which, let me first signify that our testimonie against the Antichristian hierarchie of the man of sinne, treated of in the Confession, is not by us reversed or vveakned any way, but novv is rather more sound and stronger also, then it vvas hitherto, inasmuch as it is more firmely grounded, not onely against the apostasie of Antichrist, but also a­gainst the errours & confusion of the Anabaptists: where­about we have ben encumbred, not a litle.

For the Anabaptists holding that Antichrist had utterly destroyed all Gods ordinances, so that there vvas not so much as true Baptisme r [...]eyned and had among them, thereupon they began to baptise thē selves againe. VVhose errours vvhiles vve confuted (as by our books published thereabout may appeare): and vvhiles some of them ob­jected, that vve should no more reteyne the Baptisme, then the ministerie there received: vve had thereuppon just oc­casion [Page 51]given us to consider thereof. And so vveighing vvith our selves, that one mayne and speciall reason against rebaptization is, because Baptisme is an ordinance of God, vvhich vvas had in the Church of Rome, before she fell into apostasie, and hath been there continewed ever since the Apostles tymes (hovvever it be commingled among them vvith many corruptions & inventions of their own) vve began to consider, vvhether the like might not be ob­served and sayd concerning Imposition of hands, that it vvas had from the Apostles in the Church of Rome before her apostasie, & is there continued to this daye; though mixed vvith many pollutions and devises of their ovvne.

And entring into consideration thereof, vve observed these things among other about it.

• 1. That Imposition of hands is of God, and not an invention of man, not a post or threshold first brought by Antichrist into the Temple of God, but had therein afore Antichrist sate there.
• 2. That baptisme and imposition of hands are joyned together, among the principles of the foundation spokē of, Heb. 6, 2. which vve thought therefore should in this behalf be vvell regar­ded.
• 3. That imposition of hands is in the Church of Rome still given to the Office of ministerie, & in the name of the Lord: as they doe also still administer baptisme.
• 4. That vve found not eyther precept, example or ground in the Scripture, binding us to the repetition thereof.
• 5. That the Priests & Levites in Israel becoming un­cleane, vvhen aftervvard they vvere cleansed, reteyned still their places of being Priests and Levites: And that the children of the Priests and Levites succeding after them, did minister vvithout a nevv anoynting or nevv impositiō of hands: Yea that in the case of Idolatrie, the Levites re­penting kept their function, & the Priests also, being one­ly debarred from the altar, but still remayning Priests, both doing such duties and enjoying such benefits thereof, as [Page 52]the other Israelites might not, no nor the Levites, but in cases of necessitie.

Levit. 22.1-9. and Ezech. 44.10-14. 2 King. 23.9. with Lev. 21. and 24, 9. Mat. 12, 4.6. That in the Scriptures vvefinde, how some Officers vvere ad­mitted vvith it, & some vvithout it. As about the Levites may be observed: and about the Apostles also, that Paul and Barnabas had imposition of hands, vvhich we read not that the other Apostles had. Act. 13, 1, 2, 3.7. That some Churches hold it not of necessitie to be had: That the Church of Scotland (as we heare) doth not use it at all, but in stead thereof give the right hand of fellovvship: That the first ministers and officers of the Dutch and French re­formed Churches had no imposition of hands; because at their first comming into order, they had no Elders to im­pose hands: That the ruling Elders and Deacons at this daye have no imposition of hands among them, as vve un­derstand: That neyther the apostate nor the reformed Churches repeat it to the ministers, vvhen they goe frō one Congregation to another among them. 8. And it may also be observed, that thus vve shevv the keeping of communion vvith all other Christians & Churches, what in us is: as vve doe also by reteyning our baptisme, and any other truths & ordinances of God had among thē: which still vve keep, purging them onely from the corruptions wherewith they are defiled among them.

Novv vvhen upon our occasions, divers things herea­bout vvere observed among us, vve thought it best to stay and consider further thereof; knovving that if vve finde it to be such as ought to be done, vve can doe it at any tyme: or if it be othervvise, that then this course vvhich vve took is the best. Other reasons vve considered also on the other hand, vvhich I need not here mention. But seeing vve found that it was even frō the Apostles times in the church of Rome long before she became apostate, as baptisme [Page 53]vvas; and that the repeating of it among us, and not re­garding the having of it there, is a meanes to strengthē the Anabaptists in their errours; and observing vvithall such cōsiderations about it, as are here before related, we stayed our selves: and rested in this, that the Church did chuse him into office; and that vve did by prayer commend him unto God for his grace and assistance in the ministration thereof: VVhich vve did vvithout imposition of hands at that tyme: as both our selves had before done, at our first growing into order; and as the French and Dutch Chur­ches also did, when they first began reformation among them. VVhereabout if any sounder and better course be shewed hereafter at any tyme, we can then proceed further, as there shal be cause.

In the meane tyme, let it here be observed, hovv these that thus object, and their partakers, can (all of them) hold that the people having no office may excommunicate; and (some of thē) that they may also minister the Sacraments: and yet can except against such as are in office, if they doe but make questiō of a ceremonie or any thing thereabout.

And lastly, let themselves consider, hovv the Anaba­ptists object against us, that vve receive such for members of our Church, as were baptized by the Prelates and Priests in apostate Churches: so as because of it vve baptise them not againe, vvhen at the same tyme vve baptise others that vvere never baptized before: And also, that the leaving & repenting of all the corruptions and apostasie among thē, vvill not satisfy the Anabaptists, unles vve leave also the baptisme it self, and hold vvith them that there is not so much as one post or threshold of Gods remayning in the apostate Church; as some also of these that thus except a­gainst us, have not stuck to affirme.

They that are vvise and unpartiall, vvill carefully consi­der and regard these things, though these men them selves [Page 54]cannot yet be brought so to doe. And novv I vvil proceed to the next objection.

V For the fift, vvith which the fourth and eight in the prin­ted copie doe agree, it vvas in deed sayd, that the baptisme of the Church of Rome is true baptisme. And so it is, as the circumcision in Israels apostasie vvas true circumcisi­on, and not to be repeated agayne. And if it be not a true baptisme, it is a false baptisme: And false baptisme is not Gods baptisme, nor Gods ordinance. For God is the au­thor of truth, not of falshood.

Moreover a true baptisme are vve bound to have, when vve have the meanes to attayne it. Els the neglect thereof is sinne. VVherefore they that hold it not to be true ba­ptisme, must become Anabaptists, and be rebaptized. VVhich thing let them vvell look unto.

And seeing (in the printed copie) they saye, they doe still denye it to be true baptisme, I vvill here therefore insist upon it somevvhat more. And first, it must be remembred, that vvhen I sayd, the Baptisme of the Church of Rome is true baptisme, they did not onely deny it so to be (vvhich alone they speak of here) but affirmed it also to be an Idol: vvhereof here they speak not at all. Note also, that our speach vvas and is, of the outvvard baptisme in the Church not of the invvard baptisme of the holy Ghost, which is & may be eyther vvith or vvithout the outvvard baptisme; & wherof none vvill offer to say, that it is not true baptisme, or that it is an Idol, as vvas sayd of the other.

Novv therefore upon their opinions and assertions, I reason further thus: If the Baptisme had in the Church of Rome, be not true baptisme, then it is not the Lords ba­ptisme, ordeyned by him in his Church: And if it be not that baptisme of the Lords, thē they which have no other but it, should not in that estate eate the Lords supper, but [Page 55]should get the Lords baptisme, afore they come to the Lords table. For as in Israel none might eat of the Lords passeover, that had not the Lords circumcision; so novv may none eat the Lords supper, that have not the Lords baptisme. Exod. 12, 48. Act. 2, 41, 42. 1 Cor. 10, 1-4. with Act. 18.8. and 1 Cor. 11.26. And so by this doctrine & opinion of theirs, as often as they come to the Lords table in that estate, they pollute and prophane it, and eate and drinke judgment to themselves: and therefore had need betymes to look unto it, and to examine and judge them­selves hereabout, least they be judged of the Lord. 1 Cor. 11.28. &.

Agayne, there is but one baptisme, as there is but one bodie, one spirit, one hope of our calling, one fayth, one God and Father of all, &c. Ephes. 4.4.5.6. 1 Cor. 12.13. Novv the baptisme had in the Church of Rome, eyther is that one baptisme, or is not it. If it be that one, then it is true baptisme, vvithout all question: If it be not, then they which have no other but it, have not that one ba­ptisme, spokē of by the Apostle in the Scriptures aforesaid: and therefore must get it, not onely afore they may come to the Lords table, as is aforesaid, but also that they may have the comfort of this one baptisme, & the true outward seale of Gods covenant, to confirme unto them that they are baptized into that one bodie; partakers of that one spi­rit; heyres of that one hope of eternall life; under that one Lord, in that one fayth, the children of that one God and father of all, vvhich is above all, and through all, and in us all. Othervvise, so long as they neglect or deprive them­selves thereof, it vvill follovv upon them by their ovvne opinion and assertion (vvhich they say they doe still hold) that they stand in great sinne, neglecting or contemning to have the true baptisme, instituted by the Lord, & that they deprive themselves of great comfort, and confirmati­on [Page 56]on of their fayth, about the particulars aforesayd, tou­ching the bodie and spirite of the Lord, the fayth and hope of the children of God even our Father in Iesus Christ.

Furthermore, the baptisme had in apostate Churches, eyther is a seale of the covenant of God, or not. If it be a seale of the Lords covenant, then sure it is true baptisme. If it be not, then see vvhat great things vvill follovv there­upon: As first, that they vvhich have no other baptisme but it, have not the outvvard baptisme that sealeth unto them the covenant of God: and therefore must vvith the Anabaptists gette another, that they may be assured they have the seale of Gods covenant of grace and salvation: Secōdly, that there neyther have ben, nor shall be in Baby­lon any of Gods people under his covenant; which is con­trarie to that vvhich is vvritten, Revel. 18, 4. vvhere the Lord shevveth that he hath his people, vvhō by the words of his covenant he calleth thence, saying Come out of her, my people, &c. And if these men vvill say, that themselves are not of such people there spoken unto, then let them tell us vvhen and hovv they came under the covenant of God, and let them also shevv it vvithout stablishing their owne righteousnes of vvorks thereby: Thirdly, that the baptisme novv had in apostate Churches is not ansvverable to the circumcisiō had in the apostasie of Israel: For that circum­cision (though had in apostasie) vvas true circumcision, & a seale of the Lords covenant, to his people; and therefore needed not to be renounced or repeated. But the baptisme novv had in the apostasie of the Church of Rome, they say is not true baptisme, and so not a seale of the Lords cove­nant to his people novv, as the other vvas then; therefore must be renounced, and another that is true obteyned. And thus agayne, in this they make themselves (& would make us) straugers frō the policie of Israel; as in the poynt of government also vvas observed before.

Neyther will it novv help them to alledge those Scri­ptures, or the like, as vve have produced heretofore against the Anabaptists, to approve the reteyning of our baptisme had in apostasie, vvithout renunciation or repetitiō there­of: as namely, 2 Chron. 30. chap, compared with Exod. 12, 48, 49. Gen. 17, 10-13. Lev. 26.14-44.45, 46. Deut. 4.25-31.2 King. 9, 6. and 13, 23. Psal. 78.9-38. and 89.30-34. Ezech. 16, 44-63. and 43.7-9.2 Thes. 2, 3-8. Rom. 11, 2-5. and 15.4. &c. For novv it vvill be ansvve­red them, that in Israels apostasie they kept circumcision which needed not to be repeated, seeing it vvas true, and sealed Gods covenant unto them: but that these cannot so plead for the baptisme had in the apostasie of Rome, be­cause themselves say, the baptisme of the church of Rome is not true baptisme; and so not the seale of Gods cove­nant to them vvhich have no other but it. VVhereunto vvhat they vvill ansvver, let them bethinke themselves. And let thē shevv us, by vvhat Scriptures they can approve their standing novv, vvho vvittingly & vvillingly remayne without true baptisme, to seale unto them the covenant of God in Iesus Christ.

Finally, if the baptisme had in the Church of Rome be not true baptisme, then (as they also sayd) it is an idol; bea­ring the shevv and image of that vvhich it is not in truth and substance. And so then apply hither that vvhich Mr. Ains. hath observed in his Arrovve against idolatrie, hovv God manifesteth the vanitie and filthynes of Idols by titles and names given unto them. Pag. 13. & 14. For Idols (sayth he) are called, things of naught; as it vvere filths, doung or excrements; loth some things, or detestable; and abhominations; vanities, lyes, un­profitable, false-vanities, leasings, and vayn-iniquitie. Thus he vvriteth of Idols in that place: so as by their opinion, the Baptisme of the Church of Rome, is a thing of naught, and therefore to be esteemed as nothing in the world, as it were [Page 58] filth or doung, and therefore to be cast out; a loth some thing, and therefore to be detested; an abhomination, and therefore to be abhorred; a vanitie, a lye, unprofitable, false-vanitie, leasing, and vayn-iniquitie, and therefore that all vvho have received it should renounce it, & cast it avvay as a menstru­ous cloth, and say unto it, Get thee hence: as Esay teacheth, vvhen he shevveth the vvay vvherein we should vvalk, even thus to deale vvith the monuments and most preci­ous ornaments of idolatrie, & therefore much more with the idols themselves. Esa. 30.21.22. VVhich till these men be carefull to doe with the idols reteyned among thē, they must be contented, by their ovvne opinion, to be ac­counted among those many sorts of idolaters, which defile themselves with idols, of vvhom Mr. Ainsw. speaketh in the same place of his book aforesayd.

A great sinne it vvas that they fell into, if there had ben no other but it, that vvithout just cause they brake avvay & divided themselves from the Church vvhereof they vvere: but seeing that therevvith they have also other very erro­neous opinions, and the sinfull usurpation of all the holy things of God used among thē, vvhat an heavy estate doe they stand in, and hovv greatly doth it import them, to consider their vvaies in their heart, and to turne their feet unto the testimonies of the Lord? Othervvise let them re­member that which the Apostle wrote to the Corinthians, Doe we provoke the Lord to ielousie? are we stronger then he? 1 Cor. 10.22. And thus much I thought here by this occa­sion to vvrite about the baptisme of the Church of Rome: novv I vvill come to speak of the Church it self.

As touching the Church of Rome, there being also at that tyme speach about it to be the Church of God, I did in deede alledge the saying of the Apostle, that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God; as the Apostle expressely tea­cheth 2 Thes. 2.4. And by the Temple of God, under­standing [Page 59]the Church of God, it vvill follow, that Antichrist should sit in the Church of God: and is there to be sought and found: and not among the Ievves, Turks, Pagans, or the like, as the Papists & others vvould persvvade us: ney­ther that Antichrist takes avvay wholy the Church of God, and everie truth and ordinance of the Lord, as Anabaptists, and such as are herein Anabaptistically inclined, would beare us in hand.

Observe also here agayne, that vvhich is sayd, Rev. 18, 4. Goe out of her my people, and partake not in her sinnes, &c. vvhere those vvords, my people, imply the covenant of God continued among them. For thus is the covenant taught and set dovvne unto us in the Scripture, I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And so is Israel often called the Lords people, & is thus spoken of in the time of their aposta­sie, by the Prophets: 2 King. 9, 6. & 13.23. 2 Chron. 30, 6-9. Hos. 4, 6, 12. and 5.4. and 14.2. Amos, 7.15. and 8.2. &c. And note here also, hovv the other clause (par­take not in her sinnes) shevveth vvhat vve are to leave and renounce, namely, their sinnes and iniquities, vvherein they transgresse the lavv of God, and not vvhatsoever is had or reteyned by them.

Furthermore, it is undenyable, and vve have heretofore urged it much against the Anabaptists, that the Church of Rome vvas at first, set in the vvaie of God, & was not onely one of the Churches of God,Rom. 2.8. & 16.19. but for their fayth and obedi­ence vvas also very famous over the world. Since vvhich tyme, shee is fallen into great apostasie and adulteries,Esa. 1.2. Ier. 2.21. Ezec. 16. & 23. ch. 1 Kin. 12.28-33. & 14.22.23.24. 2 Chro. 13.5. &c. as Israel did in former tymes. In all vvhich her adulterate & apostate estate, she hath notvvithstanding still kept (even to this day) sundrie truths and ordinances of God, & mix­ed vvith them her ovvne inventions & traditions, as Israel also did.

VVhich being observed aright causeth, a tvvofold consi­deration [Page 60]of her estate, as of Israels: one in respect of the truths and ordinances of God still reteyned among them; another in respect of the mixture of their ovvne inventi­ons and abhominations vvithall: in regarde of the one, to hold and acknowledge the truth & Church of God there, against the Anabaptists; in regarde of the other, to consi­der and observe their apostasie and Babylonish confusion, against Antichrist: and for this cause, namely for this de­fection and mixture aforesayd, to separate from them, and vvitnes agaynst thē: being alvvay carefull in our testimo­nie and practise to reteyne and maynteyne everie truth & ordinance of God, vvhich was in that Church before their apostasie, and is yet continued therein to this day: leaving onely and forsaking their corruptions and mixture of their ovvne inventions therevvith: least othervvise vve should be brought our selves, or be occasion to others to fall, in­to Anabaptistrie, and divers other errours and evils, as by lamentable example of others vve have seen.

Note here also a double consideration about the cove­nant of God made vvith his people: one in respect of the Lord himself, on the one part; the other in respect of the people taken into covenant by him, on the other part. Deut. 26.17.18.19. Iudg. 2.1, 20. For it often cometh to passe, that the people doe on their part transgresse & break the covenant: vvhen the Lord doth not so on his part, but still remembring his covenant, counts them his people, calls them to repentance, follovves them sometymes with judgment, sometymes vvith mereie and compassion, &c. Levit. 26.15-45. Ezech. 16.59-62. Iudg. 2.1-20. &c. Thus in Israel vvho vvere the Lords people, it may be no­ted, how they goe a whoring after their ovvne inventions, fall into idolatrie and false vvorship, runne into sinne after sinne, and become an harlot, transgressing the covenant on their part. Exod. 32. Iudg. 2. and 3. with Psa. 78.56-58. [Page 61]1 Sam. 7, 3, 4. 1 King. 12.28-33. and 14.22.23.24. with 2 Chron. 12. and 13. and 1 King. 19.10. Hos. 6.7. and 8.1. Yet the Lord breaks it not on his part, but sometymes of himself, sometymes at the intreatie of his prophets & ser­vants, he spareth them, and doth not destroy them, or pre­sently give them a bill of divorce, according to their deme­rit; but in his mercie (as a loving husband) he cals them to repentance, and to that end he sends unto them Prophets after Prophets a long tyme, to dravve thē to amendement, and cals them still his people, and helps them and casts thē not of: Yet so, as besides his vvord sent unto them, he al­so adjoyneth corrections & punishmments; both for aven­ging the quarrel of his covenant upon them, and for pro­curing their conversion by all maner meanes, vvhat may be. As in the books of Moses and historie of the Iudges, Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles, compared vvith the Pro­phets may be seen. And particularly in the Scriptures here noted before, and the like: as Exod. 33. and 34. &c. Levit. 26.14.15-25-42-44.45. Iudg. 2.1. &c. Psal. 78. 1 King. 13. and 16. and 18. 2 King. 5.8.15.17. with Ier. 51.5. and Ezech, 16.59.60. &c. Hoseas and Amos their Prophecies, &c.

And in these tvvo divers respects (sometymes having reference to God, sometymes to Israel) may there many things in the Scriptures be observed to be spoken diversly. For example, Israel considered in themselues and their ido­latrous estate, are sayd to be vvithout God, vvithout Priest to teach, and vvithout lavv, to forsake and break the cove­nant of the Lord, to provoke the Lord to anger by their va­nities; not to be the Lords vvife, but an harlot, going a vvhoring after their ovvne inventions, and having childrē of vvhooredomes; yea and that the Lord is not with Israel, or vvith any of Ephraim: 2 Chron. 15.3. 1. King. 12.28.33. and 15.34. and 16.13.26.31-33. and 19.14. Hose. 2.1-5. and 5.3.4. and 8.1. and 9.1. with Psalm. 106.29.39. [Page 62]Ezech. 16. and 23. chap. 2 Chron. 25.7. But agayne being considered in respect of the Lord and his covenant (into vvhich they vvere received, and) vvhich he breakes not on his part, but calls them to repentance, &c. the Lord is called their God; and they are called the people of the Lord; and their children, borne to the Lord; and Israel not to have ben a vvidovve forsaken of God; but that the Lord had mercie on them, and pitied them, and respected them, because of his covenant vvith Abraham, Isaac, and Iacob; and that he vvould not destroy them, nor cast them off from him as yet &c. And thus continued Israel a long tyme, respected of the Lord, notvvithstanding her aposta­sic, &c. Iudg. 2, 1. &c. 1 King. 18, 36. 2 King. 9, 6, Hos. 4.6, 12. and 5, 4. and 7, 10. and 8, 2. & 9, 1. & 14.1, 2. Amos, 7, 15. (with Psal. 89.30-34. and Ezech. 16, 20, 60. and Ier. 51.5.) and 2 King. 13, 23.

Yet notvvithstanding in these tymes, the Prophets taught the people to plead vvith their mother, about her a­dulteries, to separate themselves, and not to come at the places of their vvorship; nor to communicate vvith them, and bring their sacrifices thither, because in so doing they should multiply their transgressions. &c. Hos. 2, 1-5. and 4, 12.14.15. Amos 4, 4, 5. and 5, 4, 5.

And all these things are vvritten for our learning, & are to be applyed to the estate of the Churches in apostasie un­der the Gospel since Christ. Rom. 15, 4. with 1 Cor. 10.11.

Moreover, besides that the vvord Church is taken some­tymes more largely, sometymes more strictly (vvhich a­bout this question likevvise may be observed): there is yet further also a double regarde that may be had of apostate Churches in all ages, according as they are considered and spoken of, in comparison with other people of divers sorts. As namely Israel in apostasie, being compared vvith the Syrians, Philistims, Moabites, and other nations, are called, [Page 63]and ought to be accounted the people of God, vvho have the onely true God for their God, &c. 2 King. 3.8, 15.17. and 9, 6. &c. But being compared vvith Iudah: vvhich ruled vvith God, and vvas faythfull vvith the Saincts, she is called an harlot, not the vvife of God, but a vvhoore, com­mitting adulterie, and compassing God about vvith lyes and deceit, &c. Hos. 2.2.5. & 4, 15. & 5.3, 4. and 9, 1. and 11.12. &c.

In like maner the Church of Rome in apostasie, being compared vvith the Ievves, Turkes, and Pagans, they are and ought to be accounted Christians, and the Temple of God. VVhere also is verified that which the Apostle spake of Antichrists sitting in the Temple of God, 2 Thes. 2.4. not the Temple of Ierusalem (as some to turne away the truth, have imagined) but the Temple of Christians, the Church of God, brought to the sayth of Christ, and professing to be Christians: as may appeare by these scriptures, and the like compared together, 2 Thes. 2.4. with Ezech. 43.7.8. Zath. 6.12.13. Ephes. 2.11-13.19, 21. 2 Cor. 6.16. Rev. 11.19. and as it is also under stood by all sound writers both old and new. But agayne, being compared vvith the auncient Church of Rome and other primitive Churches in the Apostles tymes, and such as novv vvalke in their steps and in the good and old vvay, ruling vvith God, and abyding faythfull vvith his saincts: she is called, and is to be estee­med an harlot, the great vvhoore, the mother of the whooredomes and abhominations of the earth, beleeving & speaking lyes in hypocrisie, giving heed to seducing spi­rits, and having pleasure in unrighteousnes, &c. Revel. 17.1.5. 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3. 2 Thes. 2.3-10. 11.12.

And thus there being (in divers respects) a double con­sideration had of the Church of Rome novv, as of Israel heretofore, it vvill appeare, hovv in one respect it may be sayd, there is the Church of God or a true Church there, & [Page 64]in another respect, there is an apostate or a false Church there: as it is sayd by the Apostle, of one and the same wo­man, that she is dead and alive, in divers respects, 1 Tim. 5.6. And of the Iewes, that they are enimies in one respect, and yet beloved in another, Rom. 11, 28. So Iohn Baptist is Elias, and is not Elias, in divers respects, Iohn. 1, 21. with Mat. 11.7-14. and 17.10-13. Iudas is an Apostle, and yet a divel; Mat. 10.2.4. Ioh. 6.70. The Ievves are the children of Abraham, and yet the children of the divel. Ioh. 8.33.34. As the Prophets also called the Ievves, the seed of the vvicked, the seed of the adulterer, and a false seede in one respect; vvhen in other respects they acknovvledge them to be the seed of Abraham Iacob and Israel, and so a true seed and people of the Lord. Esa. 1, 4. and 57, 3, 4. with 41, 8. and 45, 19. and 58, 1. Hos. 2, 1, 2. and 4, 13. Esa. 63, 16, 17. and 64, 9. Ier. 31, 36, 37. Hof, 4, 6, 12. and 3, 4. and 14, 2, 3, 4. And endles it vvere to recount the many spea­ches and severall considerations of things thus spoken of in the Scriptures. Christ is vvithout Father and vvithout mo­ther, Heb. 7, 3. and yet he hath Father and mother, Luke 2, 48, 49. Ioh. 1, 18. and 2, 3. Christ vvas put to death in the flesh, but quickned in the spirit, 1 Pet. 3, 11. Abraham is unrighteous in himself, but righteous by fayth, Rom. 4, 3, 5. The apostle Paul, and all the regenerate serve the lavv of God, and the lavv of sinne; the one vvith the minde, the other vvith the flesh. Rom. 7, 25. Peter is a disciple & an Apostle, and yet in other respect is by Christ called Sa­than, Mat. 10, 2, and 16, 23. A leprous Ievv, is a true man and an Israelite, but a corrupt diseased man, to be put and kept out of the host of Israel, till he be cleane. Lev. 13, and 14, with 2 Chron. 26, 20, 21. Num. 12, 10-15. The Tem­ple is the house of God, & yet is made a denne of theeves, Mat. 21, 13. The Emperours of Rome, Babylon, and the other nations, are Kings and higher povvers ordeyned of [Page 65]God, Rom. 13, 1. with Rev. 17.10 and Dan. 7, 17. yet are they also in other respect Beasts, Lyons, Beares, Leopards, &c. Rev. 12.3. & 13, 1, 2, with Dan. 7, 3-6. So likewise the beast vvas, and is not, & yet is. Rev. 17, 8. And a number the like may be observed in other places of the Scriptures com­pared together.

Novv to conclude this poynt, if these things & the like, about apostate Churches, and the mixture of mans inven­tions vvith Gods ordinances in apostasie, be distinctly and carefully regarded, they may be (through the mercie of God) some good meanes to stay people from Anabapti­strie & other ill courses, by the consideration of the things that are to be observed on the one hand; and to bring men more soundly to separation from the apostasie of Anti­christ, by the consideratiō of the things to be observed on the other hand.

Somevvhat (as it pleased God to give me to discerne) I observed & vvrote, tending this vvay, long since: as may be seene in the Ansvver to Mr. Iacob,Where al­so I noted my won­ted using of this caution therea­bout, (in respect of this, or that estate) as also may be seen in the Apo­logie, where I spake with the same cau­tiō. p. 109. lin. 31.32. pag. 7. vvhere I spake of a double consideration of Christians, in one re­spect, true, and in an other, false: as also of salvation now had in the Church of Rome, pag. 13, and 47. vvhich ne­cessarily implyeth, the people of God, and his covenant to be there. For vvhosoever are saved, they are the people of God, and under his covenant in Christ. But so much and so particularly I observed not then, as since it hath pleased God to manifest thereabout. God openeth his vvil & the mysteries of his vvord, vvhen and as he pleaseth, that vve may still perceive and acknovvledge, vve knovve but in part, and that we may be earnest in prayer, & by all meanes indevour to grovv in grace, and in the knovvledge of our Lord and Saviour Iesus Christ.

And thus much I thought at this tyme by this occasion to write unto you hereabout. By which you may perceive, [Page 66]hovv they vvhich for these things speak of us, as if we were going back to England, might by this colour also say, vve are going back to Rome. And you may consider vvith your self, vvhether the people that lived in the Prophets tymes, and were set against them in those dayes, might not vvith such pretences and collections have sayd, that the Prophets had ben declining to the apostate Israelites, when they called and esteemed them to be the people of God, & acknovvledged the circumcision had in the apostasie to be true circumcision, &c. But novv I vvill proceed to their next objection.

VI For the sixt and last exception of theirs, vvhich is about having the counsel & help of the English Church at Ley­den (to vvhich therefore may be referred the ninth, and the other three particulars annexed unto it, in the printed copie): note here as in the other before, that they mentiō not the ansvvers that vvere then given hereabout. As namely, that vve vvould permit it: though (for some reasons) vve absteyned from desiring it, and sending for them about the matters in hand, or giving our cōsent so to doe. Of which poynt I shall vvrite more hereafter. But first I would here knovv, why they never speak of this, that vve were con­stent to permit it? Or vvas our permission of it, a denying of the practise of it, as novv they object in the printed co­pie? Did Paul deny that, vvhich he spake by permission: though (for some cause) he did it not of commandement? 1 Cor. 7, 6. Or did Moses deny the practise of that, vvhich he permitted: though (for good cause) he vvould not en­joyne it? Deut. 24, 1.

This thing then might have ben better observed and re­garded of them, then it hath ben: specially seeing they knovve vve made question of the lavvfulnes of doing any more in this case, then onely to permit it; and shevved al­so [Page 67]then divers reasons thereabout: some vvhereof I vvill novv mention. As 1. that now the other Church and we were in peace together; and if by this occasion the peace betvveene us should be broken, they should not say of us, that vve sent for them: our care being (vvhat in us layd) to nourish peace betvveen us, and to prevent & cut off all occasions of division: &c.

2. That the Church of Leyden was in the same errour with those of our people, who desired their help. VVhere­upon, vve vvished it should be considered, vvhether vve might approve of any to come in such case, but such as vve knevv to hold and maynteyne the truth according to the vvord of God.

3. That former experience vvith others might also justly cause us to be vvell advised and circumspect vvhat to doe in this behalf. VVhich vvhen vve vvrote of to Ley­den, them selues acknovvledged that it vvas such as might justly make us cautelous: but vvithall, they vvrote hovv vve might esteeme better of them then of the other in divers respects, as being more studious of our peace, and more carefull of the cause of Christ, and that whereas the other would have brought in new doctrines and fayths amongst us, they if in any thing they opposed any of us, Note here the terme of oppo­sition thus used. should doe it in defence of the com­mon and auncient fayth, both ours and theirs.

4. That vvhen vve vvrote to them agayne hereabout, vve acknovvledged great differences to be betvveene them and the other: but touching the doctrines and questions controverted, vve prayed them to consider, that the fayth of this Church, was that onely which is grounded upon the vvord of God in the vvritings of the Prophets and A­postles: and that so our fayth is the common and aunci­ent fayth which was held by the Church of Israel of old, & by the Primitive churches of the Ievves and Gentiles since the comming of Christ. From which vvherein soever we [Page 68]had swarved in fayth or practise, it had ben our aberration, and not our fayth indeed. Against which also whatsoe­ver should be brought in, reteyned, or defended, it was a­gainst our common and auncient fayth, both theirs & ours. And vvhether therefore it vvere about the Word, Sacra­ments, or Government of the Church (as about all these wee had found opposition) it came to a like end. Also, that in all the three vve had resisted the persons spoken of (being such as would have brought in among us new doctrines & fayths in them all) though in the last vve had done it least of all: and that novv still we purposed by the grace of God to stand against all, that eyther in all or any of them should oppose against the truth. And here, by this occasion, we intreated to knovv of them, whether they also were not like mynded with the other men aforesayd, agreeing with them in the points of the church Officers and Governe­ment, as they held and vvrote thereof, before they fell to their errours of Anabaptisme &c. VVhereunto vve had no answer at all from them. VVhich is a thing also to be observed.

5. That in this tyme, & in the same letters, we wrote to them about a letter sent unto them by many of our peo­ple concerning these matters (as themselues had certified us) desiring to haue a copie of it, together with the names that vvere subscribed thereunto, and the things delivered by word of mouth (as was told us) that we might the bet­ter consider of these things, & of our peoples dealing there­about. And vvhen thus vve could not obteyne it of them, vve alledged divers reasons to perswade them to send it un­to us, viz, that the matters written of vvere touching our publick affayres & estate, whatsoever might concerne any of us more particularly besides; that the persons vvhich sent it, were mēbers of our Church; that if the thing done vvere good, it vvould abide the light, and they should doe [Page 69]vvell to follovv the Apostles example, vvho shevved the Church of Corinth both the parties and the particulars signified unto him by them, 1 Cor. 1, 11. but if it were evill, then it behoved them so much the more to give,Gen. 37.2 Exod. 20.12, 16. Iob, 29.16 Prov. 18.17. Act. 20.28. &c. and us to have from them, the full knovvledge of the things afore­sayd, that it might be seen they did not partake with them in their evill, and that vve might doe our dutie according to that which layd upon us in this behalf, &c. that vvhere­as they vvrote their purpose was to come unto us, accor­ding to the request of the brethren vvhich had moved thē, &c. they gave us occasion to signifie unto them, that till vve knew who those brethren vvere, and what had passed between them, we could not so well admit thereof, for the reasons before rendred unto them; that we were constrey­ned the more to defier them to send it us, because vvhen the Elders here asked some for it (vvhom they understood to be of those parties) they answered, that here they had not eyther the Originall perfit, or a perfit copie, neyther any note of the names subscribed; & finally, that if they would not send it, but still keep it from us, then they and the par­ties here gave us cause to refuse to haue dealing vvith them about the things spokē of, & that so the hinderance should be in themselves; & therefore if they would there should be no such hinderance, but that vve should afterward haue reasoning with them about the matters aforesaid, and did in deed seeke the peace & good of this Church, they should shevv it forth by sending unto us a copie of those things, whereabout vve had vvritten unto them three tymes: &c. But yet notvvithstanding any intreatie or reasons alledged about it, we could not by any meanes get a copie thereof eyther there or here. VVhat vve heard was in it, & other circumstances & dealing about it, I doe omit now to speak of: and vvill proceede to other things about the matter in hand.

And next of all, it is to be observed, that to all the letters and matters aforesayd written by us to Leyden hereabout, M. A. himself subscribed as vvell as vve. So that if it were evill in us, it vvas also evill in himself. VVhich let him ac­knovvledge, knovvledge, taking avvay the former reasons, and shewing it by the vvord of God, that vve may doe likevvise. Or if he can vvarrant his ovvne doing therein, vvhy doth he thus object against us that very thing, vvherein himself joyned and subscribed vvith us at that tyme? Let him also tell us, vvhether therein he denyed the practise of that arti­cle in the Cōfession (about having the counsel and help of that Church): or vvhether he yeelded unto it by permis­sion, but absteyned from sending for them, or giving ap­probation to their coming, for the reasons aforesayd. Let him also call to minde, vvhether himself (as I remember) did not say, or (at least) heard some of us say, upon former experience had vvith others, that whiles we lived vve would take heed, how we consented to any other in like sort to come publikly into the Church, vvhom we knewe aforehand to be in errour, and so purposed to mainteyne the same.

But be it that we should haue desired this, or at least con­sented to haue it desired, as is implyed here: yet though vve did it not, the help of that Church was procured and obtey­ned, as is sayd here and in the printed copie. So then the thing it self vvas had, by their ovvne saying: how ever there wanted our desire of it or consenting thereunto: Though yet they should not forget, that vve consented to the permission of it, and shevved reasons of our resrayning from doing more in this case, as is aforesayd. Now there­fore when their help was procured, and that they were come: how vvere the things then caryed? VVhere (omit­ting to speak of that vvhich passed from them, & to keep to those that concerne our selues) they all knowe, that we [Page 71]reasoned vvith them publikly about the matter in questi­on: And that vve consulted & advised vvith them about some course to be taken for procuring and keeping peace betvveen us. And this not onely at that tyme, but after­ward also both by vvord and vvriting. So then vve both reasoned vvith them about the poynts in difference, & we used their counsel and help hovv to come to a good issue thereabout. And thus themselues vvill not deny, that the thing it self spoken of in the Confession, vvas in this sort observed by us, as is aforesayd. But hovv did they observe it themselues, vvhen they brake away and left us, vvhiles vve vvere vvriting one to another (the other Church and we) concerning the matters propounded and fallen out be­tvveen us hereabout? Of vvhich I shall haue occasion to speak more hereafter: when first I haue noted a few things further about the former matter, concerning our selues, & the Article spoken of.

For our selues, besides the other things aforesayd, vve signified also, that vve vvould not refuse to conferre & rea­son vvith the brethren of Leyden at any tyme about the matter in hand, so as their comming vvere eyther of them selues, or by the request of them here that desired it, and vvithout our approbation, for the reasons spoken of, &c. And accordingly, vvhen they came hither,Their El­ders, with consent of the rest. vve performed it, notwithstanding any thing that had passed before about these things.

For the Article it self, obserue the clauses in it, and the Scriptures cited for confirmation of it. For the clauses in it, note hovv it is sayd,Conf. a [...]t. 38. that every particular Congregation is as a compact and knitt citie in it self, and therefore should use all good and lavvfull meanes, that may further their compacting and knitting together in the truth and cōmon fayth: but not any such as may cause or at least colour the dividing of them asunder. Also, that the churches should [Page 72] all walk by one and the same rule, and by all meanes convenient, have the counsell and help one of another, in all needfull affaires of the Church, as members of the same bodie in the cōmon fayth, under Christ their onely head. If this then be a rule for us, it is so likevvise for all other Churches, that vvhen there fal­leth out question about an errour among thē, they should desire the counsel and help of such Churches thereabout, as they knowe to be corrupted vvith the same errour, and not purposed to leave it, but to defend it, supposing it to be the truth. And vvhat conveniencie it vvere (not to speak of the lavvfulnes of it) or hovv needfull, to call such as vve knovve to be in errour, that so our people might ey­ther be the more corrupted, or have the more colour for their errour & evill dealing, you may consider vvith your self. Or if vve had sent for them, or approved it, might we not haue ben accessarie to the meanes, by vvhich the truth might haue ben hindred, and our people more confirmed in errour? And vvhere then is the vvarrant for such vval­king?

For the Scriptures that are cited for confirmation of the Article aforesaid, first observe (about the point of diffe­rence betvveen us) hovv the Scriptures of the old Testa­ment are alledged asvvell as of the nevv: and those also cō ­cerning the estate of Israel, applyed to our tymes and cases novv. Secondly consider, vvhether those Scriptures in­tend or vvill vvarrant a Church, to send for such or to de­sire their counsel and help, vvhom they knovv to be in er­rour about the poynts questioned and dealt in, and by whō the parties that trouble the church may be more strength­ned in their errours and evils thereabout. VVhich if they doe, or if any other doe it (that are not cited here) then ought vve and all to yeeld thereunto. Othervvise if the help and courses desired be not such as are approved in the vvord of God, we might tempt God in attēpting of them: [Page 73]and therefore must be carefull to follovv that onely which hath warrant from thence, whereby the truth may be fur­thered, the safetie and libertie of the Church preserved, and occasion cut off from thē that desire occasion thereagainst.

And besides the things aforesaid, vvhy did not them­selues also desire to haue the counsel and help of the Dutch and French Churches, that vvere here at hand round about us? If they say, because they thought they vvere in errour about the matter in question, and so might haue hindred the truth, and haue ben against them, and for us: then by it may be perceived vvhat their ovvne judgment is about this particular (being simply considered in it self) and in this behalf what the waight of this their exception is against us. If they aunsvver any other thing, it may accor­dingly be considered of, as it shall be found to be. And hi­therto concerning the Article aforesaid, and sundrie parti­culars that passed betvveen us by this occasion, not spoken of by them.

Now touching the three particulars annexed to the ninth objection in the printed copie: the first is, that before their parting, they offered, that notwithstanding our differences of judgment, they would continew together, if our former practise might be reteyned: VVhich is as if they should say, they vvould haue continued vvith us, if vve vvould haue conti­newed in errour and evil (so found and acknovvledged by us): suffring the ordinance of God (touching the Elder­ship) to be troden under foot; the Elders to be despised & abused by the people; and the vvhole Church to be conti­nually subject to contentions and scandals, &c. Besides, vvhy doe they not also mention, vvhat vve offered to thē? vvhich seeing they speak not of, vve will: namely, that be­fore their parting vve offred to beare vvith them in their difference of judgment, if they vvould be content to walke peaceably vvith the Church in that their difference: but [Page 74]this vvas refused.

The next particular they speak of, is, that then they desi­red a peaceable parting; & to be two distinct Congregations, each practising as they were perswaded, yet nourishing love & unitie. A peaceable parting we graunt they desired in vvord, but in deed stayed not vvith us, but departed vvhiles vve vvere considering and advising vvhether it could lavvfully be ef­fected or not. And touching that particular of being two di­stinct Congregations of us in this citie &c. we shewed them divers reasons, vvhy vve could not in this case agree there­unto. And of those reasons vve had speach vvith thē here, and vvrote to the Church of Leyden: signifying vvithall, that if vve could otherwise better discerne vvhat vvere ac­cording to the vvill of God herein, vve should (God vvil­ling) so receiue and vvalk. VVhich letter (vvith the rea­sons therein conteyned) is hereafter noted dovvne. Yet notvvithstanding they stayed not, till we had an answer thereof from Leyden, but soone after departed from us. Be­sides that other meanes also vvas used (by writing) vvhich might at least haue perswaded them to stay and doe other­vvise then they did. Of vvhich I shall also speak more here­after.

The third particular is, about their procuring the help of the English Church at Leyden, without our consent (of vvhich I haue spoken here before) & about a waie of peace propoun­ded by us, & agreed unto by the Church of Leyden & our selues, and yet afterward reversed by us, &c. Touching vvhich they doe here as before, omit divers things needful to be knowē and remembred: As first, vvhat the thing it self is that was propounded by us, namely, that for such as could not be con­tent with protestation peaceably to walke with eyther Church (at Leyden or here) it should be free for them to goe from the one Church and Pastor to the other: so as there were no other cause lying against them. This vvas in deed propounded by my [Page 75]self: having much thought and considered (vvhat I could) of any lavvfull meanes, by vvhich we might come to some good end and agreement, after our so long and lamentable troubles and contentions, as vve had ben exercised withall. VVhich when I had propounded, they of Leyden answe­red, that they were glad to hear of such a motion, litle thinking that we had ben so inclyning to peace and agreement: This to my remē ­brance was the effect of the things that pas­sed here about. which if they had thought, they should haue caryed themselues otherwise towards us, then they had done. And for the thing it self, that they would consider of it with their Church; and if eyther they or we mynded otherwise by the word of God, that we should signify it. VVhich caution being thus spoken of by them, my self then said (as I remember) that I had thought so to haue spoken also concerning it, but had forgottē (when I spake) to mention it. And so then it vvas minded of us both to be considered of and prosequuted vvith this condition and limitation, of being found lawfull by the word of God. And let this for hereafter be still remembred, because it vvill cleare all the question about this matter.

Secondly, at the first treating of this matter between us, the Officers of the Church of Leyden (then present) did so conceiue it, as that our people which would not walk with this Church, as is aforesaid, should goe and remayne vvith them at Leyden. VVhich some of them here observing & excepting against it, in respect of their meanes of living had here, &c. they were answered by them of Leyden, that they must be cōtented to suffer or beare the crosse of Christ vvith them, or to such effect. Then also concerning the course aforesaid, there vvas noted a double consideration a­bout it: The one, about the doing of it so,The la­ter is the poynt which they doe so much urge. as to live and re­mayne with the other Church whither they should goe: The o­ther, about the doing of it so, as that having once gone and joyned thewselues to the other Church, they might then returne agayne to the towne where they lived before, and there live apart [Page 76]from the Church, whereof they had formerly ben. And hereu­pon, having speach about these tvvo courses: the first vvas sooner conceired of and generally liked of all; the latter vvas lesse conceived of and more called in question (as af­tervvard did appeare) though for myne ovvn part I did my self so minde and like of it at that time. And vvhen some among us propounded, that such as vvent from us to Ley­den and joyned to that Church, should not be dismissed back by them againe, to live apart from us in this tovvne: both my self and the Elders of the other Church (to my re­membrance) answered, that this matter vvould concerne that Church to which they should joyne to look unto, and so vvas to be left unto them. But afterward, considering yet further of the lavvfulnes of such dismission thither, & hither agayne: I shewed my minde herein to be altered, & divers reasons thereabout. Of vvhich I shall speak hereaf­ter, vvhen I come to that matter.

Thirdly, vvhen the matters aforesaid, vvhich vve had propounded, vvere communicated vvith the Church at Leyden, and their Elders returned hither againe, they si­gnifyed that these things came sodainly upō their Church, yet for the present (as they could in that tyme cōsider there­of) they liked vvell of it, or to such effect. So now againe at this tyme we had more speach together thereabout. The former of the tvvo courses (as I said before) vvas generally vvell approved, and consented unto. The latter vvas more doubted of and more question made about it; & in the end more & more disliked by divers, the more that it was per­ceived to be the brethrens purpose so to doe. And this most appeared the next morning, when the likelyhood of agree­ment that vvas the night before, was then so changed, upō further reasoning and consideration thereof, as we could not accord therabout. And so the Officers of the other Church (signifying that they had great occasion to returne [Page 77]home, and could then no longer stay, departed, and said, it vvould be heavie to their Church to heare that the things vvere come to no better issue between us. Yet vvhen they were gone, we still continued speach among our selues a­bout these things, being sorie that they stood thus, and that no better tidings should be caried to the other Church. And then upon some speach so had together (as vve could in that short time) we came to this issue, that we thought it best to agree upon the matter aforesaid in this sort, that whatsoever blame should follovve hereupon (if our peo­ple vvere by them of Leyden dismissed to liue here apart from us in this citie) it should lye upon them, and vve be free of it. And so thereupon we presently sent three vvith this message after the brethren of Leyden (if they could o­vertake them in tyme) to signifie thus much unto them, that they might also signifie it unto their Church. And this (I thinke) is the agreement spoken of. VVhich vvhen it vvas in this manner agreed upon, some of the brethren present (there being then but a sevv at that tyme) came to the Elders, shewing hovv they thought it needfull that this should be spoken of the Lords day after: & others say to this day, they never consented unto it: and some, that they said then, it vvas unlavvfull. And these men thē selues, it may be, vvould be loth to stand to their ovvn po­sitions about it, that in a controversie the greater part should be the Church (whether the Elders be vvith them or against them) and that the matters of sinne and question touching the brethren should be heard and ended on the Lords day. But I vvill proceede on to other matters that follovved aftervvard about these things.

Fourthly, vvhiles things stood thus mōg us, we had the Lords day following speach hereabout againe: at vvhich tyme there vvas a nevv motion made for an other course to be taken, by which we might keep together, rather then [Page 78]to part asunder according to the other course spoken of, VVhich being then propounded, and not agreed upon, vvas left to further consideration. And so that week vvee wrote to the Church of Leyden thereabout.

By vvhich occasion, after the aforesaid treating of these things had by vvord of mouth, there passed also some let­ters betvveen us concerning them. VVhich although in divers respects vve could be willing to keep among our selues: yet considering in vvhat sort and vvith what scan­dal the brethren aforesaid haue since divided themselues from us, and that the reproch of it is spread farre and neare not onely by others, but even by their ovvne letters and vvritings thereabout, to the great dishonour of God, and hindrance of the truth: and that the knowledge of these things vvill be a good meanes for all both to settle their owne judgment better, and to deale with them or others concerning these matters, as there shal be occasion: we have therefore thought it not amisse to note down here the cō ­tents of the letters aforesaid that passed betvveene us herea­bout, before the others departing from us. VVhich we may also the better doe, because they are but few and short. First therefore, when we had afterward had further speach among our selues, as is aforesaid, and had not yet heard frō the Church at Leyden agayne vvhat they thought of the matter and message aforesaid, or vvhether they consented unto it or not: we vvrote unto them as follovveth.

Beloved, touching the things that haue now lately ben spoken off between the two Churches, yours and ours, about the dismis­sion of such on cyther part as are not content with protestation peaceably to walk in their difference of judgment, we have occa­sion to entreat the continuance of your consideration yet further thereabout: 1. because your selves signified it came sodainly upon your Church: and if eyther you or we mynded otherwise by the word of God, we should after signify it: Wherefore we expect [Page 79]to heare whether you continew like mynded as heretofore. 2. be­cause there is with us a new motion of our walking together thus, by bearing one with another, so as for peace to permit of a double practise among us, that those that are mynded eyther way, should keep a like course together, as we would doe if we were asunder, ac­cording as the persons shall be that haue the causes. Which way, if it may be found warrantable by the word of God, and peaceable unto and among our selues, we hope all that love peace in holynes will accord. These things as we are to consider of, so pray we you to doe the like with us and for us, that we may doe that which is most to Gods glorie and our mutuall comfort. Thus &c. Am­sterdam Novemb. 5. old style. 1610.

And note here, how we both considered further of these things, and still limited our consultation and purpose with this caution, if the things propounded were found warrantable by the word of God. VVhich is to be observed for the waight of it against these persons, who haue taken such a course, together vvith their opinions, as can never be vvarranted by the vvord of God. Next follovveth the letter and an­svver, which then vve received from the Church of Ley­den agayne: vvhich vvas thus:

Touching the agreement (Brethren) between the Churches for our mutuall peace, and the relief of the consciences of our brethren, we did and doe repute the same as full and absolute on both sides, except eyther some better course can be thought on, or this manifested to be evill, and that then it be reversed with the mutuall consent of both Churches. And for this last motion a­bout a double practise, as we are glad of the great and godly desire to continew together, in it manifested, so doe we not see, how it can stand eyther with our peace, or it self: but that it will not onely nourish, but even necessarily beget endles contentions, whē men diversly mynded shall have busines in the Church. If there­fore it would please the Lord so far to enlarge your hearts on both sides (brethren) as that this middle waie be held, namely, that [Page 80]the matter of offence, might first be brought for order, prepara­tation, and prevention of unnecessarie trouble, unto the Elders as the Church governours, (though it is like we for our parts shall not so practise in this particular) and after, if things be not there ended, to the Church of Elders and brethren, there to be judged on some ordinarte knowen day ordinarily, the admonition being carryed according to the alteration practised and agreed upon by all parts, till it shall please the God of wisdome, and Fa­ther of lights, by the further consideratiō & discussing of things, eyther in word or writing, to manifest otherwise for our joynt ac­cord, it would surely make much to the glorie of God, & the stop­ping of their mouthes which are so wide opened upon us in respect of our dayly dissipations, and should be to us matter of great re­joycing, whose soules doe long after peace, & abhorre the contra­rie: and that thus walking in peace and holynes, we might all beg at Gods hands the healing and pardon of all our infirmities, & so be readie to heale and forgive the infirmities one of another in love. And with this prayer unto God for you, and for our selues, we resalute you in the Lord Iesus, Leyden November 14. 1610.

This vvas their letter. VVherin obserue these things about the matters that passed betvveen us. First, that here is the ansvver vvhich they gaue us about the agreement and message aforesaid, as also to the letters which aftervvard we sent unto them. Secondly, that touching the agreement they limit their consent unto it & their account of it with a double exceptiō: For though they say they repute the agree­ment to be full and absolute on both sides, yet they speak it with limitation and exception: as in deed vvas good and need­full to doe, both in respect of the thing it self, and seeing at the first propounding of the matter, it was so mynded by them and us to be considered of with limitation, of being found lawfull by the word of God. Thirdly, that the excepti­ons vvhich here they made, vvere these, except eyther some [Page 81]better course could be thought on, or this manifested to be evill. So then by this it is evident, that if eyther a better course could be shevved, or this manifested to be evill, they did not yeeld or repute the agreement to be full and absolute.

Novv touching the shewing of a better course, it appeareth by both of these letters, theirs and ours, that both of us vvere thinking of it, & therefore propounded other cour­ses (each to other) to be considered. To vvhich end may be observed here, their propounding of another waie unto us for peace & agreement, vvith divers reasons to perswade thereunto. VVhich had ben altogether in vayne, for them to propound or us to think of, if the other had ben absolute vvithout exception, and irrevocable vvithout alteration, though it vvere found never so evill or unlavvfull.

And for the manifesting of it to be evill, the more vve thought of it, the worse we found it to be: and mynded di­vers reasons against it: vvhich first vve signified here to the brethren themselues, and had some reasoning vvith them thereof, but could not agree thereabout: and then we vvrote of them also to the Church at Leyden, as by the next letter here follovving will appeare. And we need not doubt, but if the thing which they purposed here, had gone forvvard vvith our consent, it would aftervvard haue ben much abused against us by others, if not also by thēselues: specially as it appeared still more & more to be in deed in­tended by them: the thing being such, as although it had never ben thought or spoken of among us, yet it vvould (in a matter of this waight) haue ben found a great over­sight. But it being spoken of, and manifested, that they vvould but goe to the other Church to joyne unto them there, & then presently returne hither agayne to remayne and liue here in the same tovvne, apart from us, of vvhom they vvere: vvhat vvould this haue proved in deed, but scandal and collusion, and haue ben turned upon us vvith [Page 82]the more reproch, because vve consented unto it?

As for that other clause in their letter, where they write that the agreement should be reversed with the mutuall consent of both Churches: note that this vvas their propounding thereof unto us, vvhich vve vvere to consider of, vvhether vve vvould assent unto it or not. And that in all such cases, wherein it may fall out that eyther sinne may be cōmitted, or the truth hindred, or the libertie of the Church impea­ched, it behoveth all carefully to take heed vvhat they con­sent and yeeld unto: yea that if any conditions or agree­ments are made, vvhich can not vvithout sinne be perfor­med, it is better to breake then to keep them.

Lastly obserue here, hovv the course about dealing in matters propounded in this letter, and not yeelded unto by the others,Ex [...]ept some of them. shevveth playne ynough, hovv greatly these mē oppugned the ordinance of God touching the Elders hea­ring and judging of causes and persons, and hovv highly they lift up the people therein: specially vvhen the things noted before about this question, are joyned and compa­red herevvith. Novv it follovveth, that vve set dovvne our next letter sent unto the other Church about the matter a­foresaid: vvhich also vvas the last that passed betvveen us, afore the others parting from us. And it vvas thus:

Your letter (brethren) we received and read publikly. Cor­cerning which, we haue occasion to signify some things unto you thereabout. And first touching the agreement treated of between us, that for such of us as will not come thither to remayne with you, but purpose still to liue here, in this citie, apart from us: al­beit there be some that could be content notwithstanding so to dis­misse them, yet there are others of us, that having more conside­red of it, thinke it not lawfull to haue any hand in consenting thereunto, and meane therefore to reverse our former agreement unto it, besides that divers of us say, they never consented here­unto. And further, some of us also beginne to thinke that it will [Page 83]be found unlawfull to keep spirituall cōmunion with them in such estate, how ever we may still reteyne with them civill societie.

The reasons mynded, why not so to dismisse them, nor to haue spirituall fellowship with thē in such estate & walking, are these:

• 1. Because we can not finde warrant for it in the word of God.
• 2. Because they refuse disobey and speak evill of the truth and waie of God.
• 3. Because they refuse to continew and keep cōmu­nion with us, though they may be suffered to walke with us in peace with protestation in their difference of judgment.
• 4. Be­cause some of them professe they will not deale in causes (as may fall out between us) by way of protestation, neyther when they are with us, nor when they are from us.
• 5. Because they goe not frō one Church and Pastour to another, so to live and remayne: but purpose (when they haue come & joyned unto you) then present­ly to returne, & to live here in this towne apart from us.
• 6. Becau­se by such walking of theirs, great reproach will come upon us all, with much dishonour to God, and hinderance to the truth, what in them lyeth.
• 7. Lastly, because we thinke there should alway be somewhat in such cases used, as whereby the Lord may worke upon their consciences, to consider their estate, and to re­pent and yeeld to the truth and waie of God which they haue hi­therto refused and oppugned, &c.

Thus we thought to acquaint you with these things, and the reasons thereabout. Which yet are so mynded of us, as if eyther among our selues or by others we shall hereafter better discerne what is according to the will of God herein, we shall (Godwilling) be ready so to receiue and walke.

As touching the the double practise, misliked by you, although in deed it may seeme somewhat straunge and difficult, yet for the present some of us could like better of it, then of a parting: but the brethren differing from us will not admit of it. Neyther will they yeeld to that middle course propounded in your letter. Yet haue we left it, with the former things, to their further conside­ration. And how soever it pleaseth the Lord to dispose of us, our [Page 84]trust is that he will worke all in the end to the furtherance of his truth, and peace of his Church in Iesus Christ. To whose gra­cious protection and guydance we commend you, &c. Am­sterdam. Novemb. 19.1610.

This letter being here publikly read, vvas then sent to the Church at Leyden. VVhereabout let these things also be observed here. First, that vve reversed not our agree­ment concerning such, as vvould goe and liue vvith the Church at Leyden: but onely about such as vvould not re­mayne and liue there, but purposed to returne, & liue here apart from us in this citie.

Secondly, that for this also we shewed divers reasons moving us so to doe: and that, both here by vvord of mouth, and by vvriting to Leyden, afore they vvent avvay from us.

Thirdly, that vvhereas tvvo courses vvere propounded for the keeping of us together, the one by us here, the other by the Church at Leyden, they vvould not admit of eyther of them: neyther remayned vvith us, till vve had from Leyden an ansvver of this letter, and of the reasons contey­ned therein: but vvere so set upon parting from us, as be­fore vve heard from them, they divided them selues from us; and so haue continued to this day. Yea notvvithstan­ding that before this their parting, and besides all the other meanes formerly used, vve offred also to try out in vvriting the matter betvveen us, touching our difference about the Churches government, and understanding of Mat. 18.17. vvhich likevvise they refused. VVhereof I shall speak more particularly hereafter.

Fourthly, that vvhen they left us, they vvent not to Ley­den, there to joyne them selues to that Church, according to the agreement before spoken of: but vvent apart from us here, forsaking the fellovvship vvhich they had with us, and met together in another place of this tovvne. VVhich [Page 85]is much to be observed, not onely for the thing it self, but because that thus them selues in their going away followed not the agreement betvveene the other Church and us, vvhereof they speak. And so that vvhich they did, vvas both vvithout our agreement, and the Churches of Leyden, for ought vve knovve. Neyther haue they here set dovvne the cause that moved them, not to goe to Leyden first and joyne there (according to the former agreement) afore they had taken this course of meeting apart from us here. If they vvould haue this taken for a de­claration of that vvhich they intended indeed, that if they had gone to Leyden, and joyned there, it should haue ben, but for the satisfying of our mindes, vvhom they savve to be troubled about the dismission of them; and that in deed they meant not to liue and remayne with that Church and Pastor there, but vvhen they had so done, then to come & liue apart from us, as novv they doe: vve and others may accordingly esteeme thereof, and take it as a further confirmation of the reasons alledged for the reversing of our consent to the agreement aforesaid.

There is also a clause inserted by them in their third par­ticular novv treated of, vvhere they say, that in the treatie of the Agreement it was testifyed by the Elders of the Church of Leyden, that unlesse it were to the apparant undoing of thē, & of their families, they should not be dismissed agayne to dwell here: which whether it did any way moue them in this behalf to doe as they did, themselues know best. My self cannot say, that it did. But this is sure, that some haue gone from this Church & citie to liue in the other, in respect of their out­ward estate, and in hope of bettering of it: though none of them did so, upon the former agreement, and in respect thereof, that I can remember.

And (to note it here by this occasion) vvell may it be that this speach of the Elders of that Church vvas a [Page 86]meanes to persvvade us much to the agreement aforesaid: and that vvhen it appeared, hovv them selues vvere purpo­sed not to liue vvith the other Church & Pastor there, but to returne and liue apart from us here, that then vve did the more thinke of it, vvhether it vvere lavvfull for us to consent thereunto: and thereuppon shewed the reasons aforesayd for the reversing of our former agreement unto it. VVhich reasons also together vvith their owne purpose of living here apart from us; they should haue done vvell to haue spoken of in their vvriting, and not to haue sayd onely, that although in the treatie of the agreement it was testi­fied by the Elders of that Church, that unlesse it were to the ap­parant undoing of them, and of their families, they should not be dismissed agayne to dwell here: yet because they would not absolutely promise to leaue this citie, we would not stand to the a­greement which our selues had made. For they knovve both their owne purpose aforesaid, and that vve shewed divers reasons, vvhy vve thought it not lavvfull for us to conti­nevv, but to reverse, our consent to the dismission of such as would not remayne vvith the other Church, but purpo­sed still to liue here in this citie apart from us.

And in deed in such cases, if things should concerne our selues, even vvith certaine losse and hurt to us and our fa­milies, yet should vve not make our outvvard estate the ground or rule of our religion or religious actions, but vve should alvvay first look and consider vvhat is lavvfull for us by the word of God to consent unto in others, or to pra­ctise our selues: and then in fayth to vvalk before the Lord, being upright, and committing our vvay unto him, vvho vvill bring it to passe. Psal. 37.3, 4, 5. with Gen. 12.1. and 17.1. Note also here, how in the two last particulars of the printed copie, they haue this clause thrise, that we would not agree to stand to the agreement, unles they left this citie; and haue not once any vvhere, unlesse they went from one [Page 87]Church and Pastour to another: the verie naming vvhereof is such, as caryeth vvaight of reason vvith it against them, and for us.

Moreover, concerning the poynt and Article spoken of, about having the counsel and help of other Churches, note also that hovvever they speak much of it, yet in deed they did not follow it them selues; in that whiles the other Church and vve vvere treating & vvriting about the matters afore­sayd, they stayed not till vve had done, to see vvhat would be the end of our consultation, as it should please the Lord to dispose: but vvhen they knevve vve had vvritten unto Leyden, and vvhereabout, and that yet vve had received no ansvver from them agayne, they brake away from us; and tooke also another course then that which was agreed upō, as is aforesaid. And so themselues herein observed not that in deed, which they speake in vvord, about having the coun­sel & help one of another, in all needfull affaires of the Church, &c.

And be it that eyther vve or the of Leyden (from whō vve heard not in this tyme) should be vvanting or fayling in any thing hereabout: (as vvho in such difficulties and troubles are not subject to be?) Yet what will they alledge for vvarrant of their separation from us vvhich they haue made? Themselues knovve that everie vvant or fayling in Churches or actions, vvill not beare out such divisions. Good vvarrant it had need be that should uphold such disbounding and separating of themselues, as they haue runne into.

If they alledge the matters that are mentioned in the foresayd letters vvhich they sent into England, and in the other vvriting of theirs, vvhich is printed: for them you see the aunsvver novv given thereunto: and let them remember also, that hovvsoeuer they speake of other mat­ters, yet they made their division onely for the question, [Page 88]about Government and the understanding of Mat. 18.17. vvhereabout we differed and could not agree. And if then in the matter it self, for vvhich they left communion with us, they be found thēselues to be in notable errour: what vvarrant may it be that they can alledge herein, which will not returne upon their owne heads in the end, as that Scri­pture doth vvhich they alledge for and at their dividing of themselues from us? Rom. 16, 17.

As for the long disputing of these matters, vvhereof they speak, that also maketh the more against them, because that although such care and continuall paynes vvas taken for them and vvith them, yet it prevayled nothing at all with them neyther. And vvhere they say, no waie of peace could by us be found to continew together in the truth & holynes, they should turne their eyes upon themselues, upon their er­rours, and upon their stubberne contentious and unruly vvalking: besides that they stayed not to see vvhat issue it vvould please God to bring of the matters in hand betvveē the other Church and us: and refused also to trie if by wri­ting among our selues, vve could haue come to better ac­cord in our differences, then vve could by speach and word of mouth. VVhich although it be a meanes seldome used vvhen parties are present together, and carefully to be re­garded vvhen and hovv it is so used: yet I suppose novv that they haue better bethought themselues, they vvill ac­knovvledge it had ben better to haue admitted of any lavv­full meanes they could, rather then to haue divided them­selues as they did, and to haue brought so great reproach & many evils upon themselues and others as they haue done, Or if they vvill not so acknovvledge thēselues, yet I doubt not but others vvill for them.

For that vvhich they speak of the lamentable dissipation of the Church and members beginning to growe, if they had na­med any particulars thereabout, they might accordingly [Page 89]haue ben spoken of. VVhich seeing they haue not done, I vvill leaue to the consideration of themselues & others, whether their dealing & departing frō us might not onely haue begunne, but even haue caused to growe and goe for­ward, a most lamentable dissipation of this Church, & the members thereof, had not God disappointed them, and in mercie susteyned and kept us together, vvhen they made their division & cōmitted so great offence in this Church:Rom. 16.17. contrarie to the doctrine, vvhich vve haue learned of the Prophets and Apostles; vvhich vve also shevved unto thē many times, afore they parted from us; and vvhich (novv that they haue left us) must ende all the question and con­troversie that is betvveen us.

And here it is to be remembred, that alvvayes and in all our vvritings and occasions vve still professe to haue the vvord of God alone for the light of our feet and direction of our vvayes, in all things. VVhich vve should therefore be the more carefull to follovv, as it pleaseth God of his goodnes to manifest his vvill unto us more & more. And likevvise about these matters, and in the last letter afore­sayd, vve limited our dealing and the reasons alledged, with the same caution still, of follovving that which we should among our selues or by others best discerne to be according to the wil of God therein: VVhich though it had not ben expressed, should alvvay be understood. But being purposely and so often mentioned from time to time, about these things, it should the more be remembred & regarded of us all: that by it vve may examine & determine all the matters betweē us. For neyther may vve reteyne any thing in the Church, nor yeeld to any agreement vvith others, that is not war­rantable by the vvord of God: neyther should they urge the continuance of any thing among us, nor follow them­selues any course in their practise, that cannot by it be ap­proved: but vve should still grovve in knovvledge & obe­dience [Page 90]of the vvill of God, leaving that vvhich is evill, and following that vvhich is good, in all things.

Moses, when he was informed by Iethro that the course of government, vvhich he took in judging the people and hearing their causes so as he did, vvas not good, but vvea­rysome both to him and the people, and had another vvay shewed unto him, to be received vvith the approbation of God: he vvillingly hearkened unto it, and chaunged his former course, the Lord also approving the same. Exod. 18.13-26. VVhen David in a godly desire vvas carefull to bring the Arke of God from Kirja [...]h-jearim to Ierusalem, he put it in a nevve cart, and beganne to carry it vvith singing and playing on instruments and great solemnity: thinking that he had done vvell and right therein: but the Lord made a breach upon them by the death of Vzza. VVhereupon David stayed the further removing of it a vvhile: and perceiving that it was, because they did it not in the due order thereof, he then aftervvard took another course, appoynting the Levites to beare it, whom the Lord had chosen to cary the Arke of the Lord, and minister un­to him. 1 Chron. 13. and 15.2-13. &c.

Novv vvhat breaches, contentions, and continuall trou­bles, had ben at that time in this Church among us, they are not ignorant of: besides the exceeding great and hea­vie one, which about the same time befell that other Con­gregation of our countrymen here, who about the questiō of the Churches government, pleaded also against the El­dership, for their popular course, vvith some of the verie same arguments, and other like, as these haue done; and runne into sundrie Anabaptisticall opinions and courses, not unknovven unto them: And the brethren of Leyden in their letter here before make mention of our dayly dissi­pations vvhich then vve had. VVhich things I note here by this occasion, that it may the better appeare, both what [Page 91]great cause vve had novv to look hereunto, and that these things also befell us, vvhiles vve held that course of go­vernement pleaded for by these men, and afore they made this schismaticall departing from us, as novv they did, be­cause vve vvould not still continue and hold on the same course, as before.

Besides these examples of Moses and David, I could also alledge the Apostles, vvho upon experience of evils that came by having younger vvidovves in the service of the Church, took aftervvard another course, and appoynted that none should be taken into that number under three­score yeere old, &c. 1 Tim. 5, 9-15. And for chaunging of things purposed and determined, vvhen there is just cause, vve haue likevvise the example of David agayne, vvho vvhen he had purposed and solemnely vovved the death of Nabal and all his familie, yet afterward upon the persvvasion and reasons used by Abigail, changed his pur­pose, and blessed her, and the Lord, for her counsel & per­svvasion given unto him: 1 Sam. 25.21-35. And of the Prophet Nathan, vvho having both consented to Davids purpose of buylding an house to the Lord, and encouraged him thereunto, yet vvhen as the same night the Lord she­wed him, that he did not require it of David, neyther vvould haue him to doe it: he thereupon vvent and she­vved it to David; vvho also rested therein, with praise and thanks unto God. 1 Chron. 17. chap.

And these things are vvritten for our learning, vvhich I doe the rather note here, considering the persons & mat­ters spoken of: The persons being Moses, David, Nathan, Paul: some Prophets, some Apostles: The matters being touching the government of the people, the vvorship of God, the service of the Church, and helping one of ano­ther, &c. Yet such persons in such matters altered their courses and purposes, and vvere readie and vvilling so to [Page 92]doe, when eyther by the counsel of others, or by their own experience, or by the vvord or work of God, they percei­ved any errour to be committed, or some other evil to en­sue, in the courses taken or purposes intended by them. They knevve and vvere carefull as (all should) that in all things, vvhether concerning the vvorship of God, or go­vernement of the Church, or other duties and actions, that onely should be received and reteyned, vvhich is approved of God: and whatsoever is evill or unvvarrantable by his vvord (though formerly had and observed) that it should be corrected and amended.

According to vvhich rule, and examples of the godly in former times, if these men vvould novv (vvithout preju­dice) examine their opinions and courses aforesaid, they should finde it high time for them to make a stand, to ob­serve the vvork of God upon them, & to giue thēselues no rest till they haue forsaken their errours & redressed their crooked waies: be they othervvise never so pleasing unto thē or auncient with thē. So should they in deed keep the auncient fayth, and vvalk in the old and good vvay prescri­bed of God. Let them therefore hearken to the instructi­on and counsel given unto them: Let the vvaie of God be in their heart, and his feare before their eyes: Let them thinke on their owne vvaies, and turne their feet unto his testimonies: Let them make hast, and not delay to keepe his cōmmandements. Psal. 119.59.60.

And to this end, let them about the things spoken of, consider well, of these two poynts:

• 1. of the questions themselues that haue ben and are betvveen us; and there­in especially of those differences vvhereabout they severed themselues from us;
• 2. of the charge layd upon the Pa­stors and Elders over the flock committed unto them by the Lord; and of the dutie required of the people agayne tovvards the Governours, vvhom the Lord sets over them [Page 93]in his stead.

Of the first I haue treated here, and in another treatise before, written about the exposition of Mat. 18.17. For the latter, see these & the like Scriptures, throughout the book of God; Exod. 20, 12. 2 Chron. 26.16-21. Act. 20, 17, 28. Rom. 12, 3-8. 1 Cor. 12, 28. Ephes. 4, 11-16. Col. 4, 17. 1 Thes. 5, 12, 13. 1 Tim. 5, 17-21. and 6, 13.14. Tit. 2, 15. Iam. 5, 14. 1 Pet. 5, 1-4. Rev. 2, & 3. Heb. 13, 17.

And novv to conclude, besides all the former things, we entreated them also that seing the same matter vvas then in hand both betvveene Mr. Amsworth and Mr. Bernard, and betvveene Mr. Robinson, and Mr. Bernard, that there­fore they vvould stay, to see vvhat this vvay might come to passe for the more clearing of the poynts in difference betvveen us, and our better accord thereabout: But they vvould not be perswaded so to doe. And then finally, af­ter a yeeres dispute publikly had by vvord of mouth,Once a vveek cō ­monly. & all the other meanes used among us, I offered in the end (as I said before) to try out the matter in vvriting betvveen us, and gaue forth unto them the observations vvhich then I had collected about Mat. 18.17. Which since are printed. VVhich they both heard publikely read, and had them to copy out, afore they went avvay from us: yet vvould they not yeeld hereunto: But vvhen vve had appoynted another day in the vveeke about these things, then had they some speach of divers particu­lars in the foresaid vvriting, vvhereabout also vve spake a­gayne: and so some speach passed between us thereabout: but to giue ansvver unto it in vvriting they vvould not be perswaded. Neyther vvould they continevve any longer with the Church: but vvith great sinne and scandal divi­ded themselues from us (vvhich they professed that day,Decem­ber 15. and 16. 1610. & practised the next, and so haue continued ever since) al­ledging the saying of the Apostle to the Romans, Rom. 16, 17: VVhich is so direct against themselues, and for us, as I [Page 94]vvill novv alledge no other Scripture at all, against the di­vision and scandals caused by them, but leaue them even by this to be judged of their ovvne mouth. VVhich they shall doe vvell to laye to heart, & to ponder seriously with themselues; seeing that by the very Scripture vvhich thē ­selues alledged, all are bound to marke them, and avoyde them, as having made division and offences, contrarie to the doctrine vvhich we haue learned of the Prophets and Apostles of the Lord. Rom. 16, 17.

Thus haue I more largely then I thought, vvritten here­about: and doe novv leaue it to your vvise and godly con­sideration, as it shall please the Lord by his vvord and spi­rit to direct and persvvade you therein. Farevvell in the Lord; vvho remembreth his people in their base and di­stressed estate, and giveth an issue vvith every tentation; vvho also vvill deliver us from everie evill vvorke, & pre­serue us to his heavenly kingdome, by Christ our Redee­mer: to vvhom be glorie for ever and ever. Amen. His grace be with you, and his strong consolation in your spi­rit for ever. Amen.

By this course vve had much cō ­tention & trouble, &c.It being held among us, that such as vvere to be dealt vvithall publikly for sinne, should not be admonished by the Elders, vvhereupon the proceeding against them, if they persisted therein, might follovve: but that the peoples consent vvas first to be taken, afore the Elders did so admonish any such persons: This poynt about admonition vvas handled, and thus agreed upon, from 2 Chron. 19, 8, 9, 10. Deut. 17, 8-13. 1 Thes. 5, 12. &c. to this effect, viz.

THat it is the dutie of the Elders in the publike admini­stration of governement, & in matters brought to the Church, to admonish the sinners and unrepentant (vvith­out requiring the people their consent first): VVhich ad­monition of the Elders being despised, the parties upon it are to be excōmunicated.Our boū ­den duty, in the Lord: and freedome according to his vvord: Both are to be re­spected, & obser­ved a­right. And all the brethren are bound to consent unto such just rebuke or admonition given by the Elders, as to the publike doctrine of the Church: And consequently they are to assent unto all other the just ad­ministration of the Governours, they being able to justify the same by the word of God. And agayn, the people haue libertie to except against and evince vvherein the Elders doe unjustly without warrant: As also in all good order without disturbance and under correction, they may aske resolutiō of their doubts. And so by this meanes all popu­lar confusion is avoyded, & libertie in the truth reteyned.

Also after much and often reasoning about our practise and understan­ding of Mat. 18, 15, 16, 17. it vvas agreed by the Church, That vve etred in the understanding of that Scripture, & namely in these par­ticulars follovving:

• First, in that vve haue so understood those vvords (Tell the Church, &c,) that they may not be understood of the Ievves Synedrion, nor of the Christian Presbyterie or El­dership. And this moreover so, as some among us vvill by [Page 96]the word (Church) in that place haue understood, men vvomen and children in ther ovvne persons; meaning by children, such of them as are able to rejoyce and sorrovve with others. And vve note this to be, of telling men wo­men and children in their ovvne persons: because other­wise it is graunted, that the Congregation is told according to order and rules of governement, in the telling of the Elders. (And here it is to be remembred, hovv it hath of­ten ben signifyed, that vvhether wee understand those words (of telling the Church) thus, Tell the Congregation, to weet, according to the rules and order of governement appoin­ted by God in his word;
  Note here that the Elders sit in a pu­blick place, vvhere all that vvill may come and be present, &c.
  or thus, Tell the Congregation of Elders not hindring or infringing any right or libertie of the brethren; these come both to one end, being rightly understood. And about these things haue ben alledged these & the like Scri­ptures: Mat. 18, 17. cōpared with Mat. 5, 22. Deu. 21, 18-20. Num. 35, 12, 24.25. with Deu. 19, 11-18. Iosh. 20, 4-6. 1 Sam. 2, 25. Psal. 82, 1. Prov. 26, 26. in the LXX. compared with the Original. Deut. 1, 9-17. and 16, 18. and 17, 9-12. and 25, 7, 8, 9, with Ruth 4, 1-11. 2 Chron. 19, 5-11. Act. 6, 11-13. and 20, 17, 18. Rom. 12, 4-8. Luk. 12, 42. 1 Cor. 4, 1, 2. and 5. chap. with Lev. 20, 11. and Deut. 17, 4-7. 1 Cor. 6, 1-5. & 12, 28. 1 Thes. 5, 12-14. 1 Tim. 3, 5. and 5, 17-21. Heb. 13, 17. 1 Pet. 5, 1-4.)
• Secondly, vve haue erred in that we haue so understood those vvords (Tell the Church, & if he heare not the Church, &c.) that the partie offending should not, vvithout taking consent of the people, be admonished by the Elders, wher­upon to proceed against him: And that the sinner vvas not to be excommunicated,
  Viz. the admoni­tion so giuen by the Elders as is afore sayd.
  for despising the admonition given by the Elders onely. Touching vvhich vve haue a­greed heretofore, that vve erred, from these Scriptures, 2 Chron. 19, 8.9.10. and 1 Thes. 5, 12. compared with Deut. 17.8-12. &c. (And here agayne it is to be remembred, [Page 97]hovv it hath ben shevved that the speaches of telling the El­ders, and of the casting out of persons for despising the admo­nition given by the Elders onely, are to be understood in re­spect of ministration and governement committed unto them by Christ and the Church, and not so to be taken, as to exclude the Church or Christ the head, for vvhom they doe administer: but that vve should alvvay understand & obserue these things, according as in Israel (in the due pro­portion and perpetuall equitie thereof) and according to the Scriptures here alledged, in this and the other particu­lar aforesayd: and therefore not to abridge the brethren of their assent or any right that doth apperteyne unto thē by the vvord of God: but to doe all things according to the rules prescribed therein, as before hath ben shevved. To vvhich ende likevvise it is to be remembred, how it hath ben often signified and declared, that the povver of the holy things of God given to the Church, is properly and primarily Christs; secundarily and by communication the Churches; instrumentally and ministerially the Offi­cers, vvho are the Ministers of Christ and the Church. And that thus vve would still be understood. As also, that thus the admonition, being given as is aforesayd, may be sayd to be the admonition of Christ, of the Church, & of the Elders, in divers respects, according as is sayd before.)
• Thirdly, cōcerning that rule in general, we have had this errour among us, that it hath ben understood to be a newe rule for the time of the Gospel, which Israel had not. VVhereabout may be considered & cōpared together these and the like Scriptures, as followeth: Mat. 18.15. with Lev. 19, 17. Prov. 25.9.10. Also, Mat. 18.16. with Deu. 19.15. and 17.6. Ioh. 8, 17. 2 Cor. 13, 1. And, Mat. 18, 17. with Mat. 5.22. Deut. 21.18, 19, 20. Numb. 35.12-30. with Deut. 19.12-17. &c. together with the other Scriptures mentioned here before in the other particulars, as in them may be seen.

And for all these things, if any can shew us better or o­thervvise by the vvord of God, vve shall (God wil­ling) be readie to yeeld unto it.

THus vvas the Churches agreement about these things. VVhere note, that the first of these about admonition by the Elders, was sooner agreed upon, there being but fevv (in respect) that excepted and stood a­gainst it, vvhen some of the chief of them yeelded unto it. The latter, about our practise, & understanding of Mat. 18, 17. was verie long debated among us: and after much reaso­ning had thereabout, vve vvere often and earnestly urged by the Opposites, to giue sentence and come to an yssue a­bout it. So in the end vve agreed concerning it, as here be­fore is set dovvne. VVhich vvhen vve had done, they si­gnifyed their dissent, and that they could no longer vvalke vvith us, practising accordingly. And so aftervvard they vvent avvay and left us. And this is the very cause of their departing from us, vvhatsoever other thing be alledged by them or any other thereabout.

And this I intreat the Reader vvell to obserue, because othervvise, reading their foresayd differences and objecti­ons in the letter and printed copie, (vvhereabout they haue busied themselues so much) he may take them for causes of their separation, which in deed vvere not. And where­as thus it pleaseth thē to trouble mens mindes with their positions, and intend in the setting of thē dovvne to cause disgrace to this poor Church (which they so unjustly haue left, as if we had apostated and left the auncient sayth) it shall be good for them to try and warrant those their posi­tions [Page 99]and differences, as also their separation from us, by the touchstone of the vvord of God, as now by the answer thereunto given, they are occasioned to doe.

And vvithall, let them shew out of the Scripture, hovv it can be vvarranted, that a minister vvho hath not himself received true baptisme, may administer the Lords Supper; or that a people not having true baptisme, may receive the Lords supper (as these haue done): seeing themselues de­ny the baptisme of the Church of Rome,By this o­piniō the Martyrs of later yeeres had not true ba­ptisme, &c. & so consequent­ly of other Churches in Apostasie, to be true baptisme. If the example of Christ be considered, vvho first instituted and ministred the Lords supper himself, he had received true baptisme before. Mat. 3, 16. with 26.26.27.28. The like may be observed about his Apostles, & namely about Paul, vvho vvas first baptised, afore he received or admini­stred the Lords supper: Act. 9.18. with 20.11. and so in others from time to time. By vvhich themselues may per­ceiue vvhat a continuall profanation of Gods holy things is among them, that so minister or receiue, not having true baptisme: and the Reader may discerne hovv needfull it had ben for them, better to haue thought of their posi­tions and objections against us, afore they had thus vvrit­ten and given them forth. And this I thought good here to mention (together vvith that vvhich is before noted a­bout it) that both themselues and others may by this occa­sion duly consider of their estate and dealing.Pa [...]. 54 &c.

And here for this purpose also, it vvill not be unfit in this place to annexe the judgment of Mr. Iunius concer­ning the Church of Rome; as I sayd here before I vvould. VVhich the Readers shall do vvell duly to consider, both for their ovvne better information, and for the better di­scerning and judging of the opinions and differences that are at this day-thereabout, not onely among the Anaba­ptists, and such as are affected Anabaptistically, but even [Page 100]among Protestants also, our selues and others, differing in some things about this matter. Thus therefore it is as followeth:

BEing to treat of the Church of Rome, vve wil first unty the knot of the aequivocatiō of the word, before we determine of the thing it self; that all men may better perceiue, what it is, that is at this day called in question a­mongst us. For very many are deceived vvith the homonymie or aequivocation of the verie word, and unavvares insnare themselues and others, by the igno­rance of the deceitfulnes in the speach.

The church of Rome therefore is properly so called, or abusiuely, by the misterming or abusing of the name; both as it is called a church, & as it is called the Romane church. For as it is called the Romane church, sometymes it pro­perly signifyeth the companie vvhich is at Rome, as Paul spake, vvriting to the Romanes: sometimes it signifieth abusiuely, all the churches on the earth, that cleaue to the Romane church, according to the forme of doctrine, and [Page 101]constitution thereof. But vve vvill treat of the church as it is indeede the church of Rome: and the things vvhich vve shall speak of this church, the same may the godly rea­der by proportion understand of the church so called by abuse of speach.

Now as it is called a Church (vvhich thing chiefly is in controversie) it is so termed three maner of vvayes: as a subject; as an accident growing to the subject; and as the subject together vvith that his accident. As a subject, it is the simple or single Church of Rome; As an accident grow­ing upon the subject, is the papacie, or the papall hierarchie, vvhich they call ecclesiasticall. As a subject compounded with his accident, it is the church of Rome become papall, or under the Pope, that is to say corrupt, as I may so speake, by that lavvles or unnaturall shoot of the Pope, springing out of the stock. Novv of each of these vve vvill consider so briefly as may be, one after another.

The Church of Rome when it is considered as a sub­ject, it hath tvvo parts; the pastors and the flock of Christ:I for vvhich church the Apostle of old gaue thanks to God by Iesus Christ, because her fayth vvas published through­out the vvhole vvorld. Rom. 1, 8. And for vvhich vve also dayly aske of God in our prayers, that he vvould informe it to vvorship him by his spirit in the Gospel of his sonne, & to establish it in fayth. Neyther doe vve deny this subject to be at Rome, by the mercie of God, even at this day, be­cause vve trust there is God calling, persons called, and the calling it self yet in her: the meeting of vvhich things to­gether in one giveth being to a church,Chap. 8. &c. as before vve she­wed.

But touching the papacie, or the papall hierarchie,II which they are vvoont to call ecclesiasticall, vve doe not say that it is the church properly so called, but an accident grovving unto the church, and such as covertly vvorketh [Page 102]against the life, and health of the Church. That it is not the church properly, is proved by the very definition of the papacie, and of the Church of God. For the papacie ac­cording to his generall, is an order: the church is a com­panie or an assemblie. The papacie by his difference, is an order positiue, humane or from men, and naught; The church is an assemblie divine or from God, by divine au­thoritie, vvith reason united together. Novv those things which differ both in their generall, and in their essentiall difference, and in their necessarie conditions or properties, they cannot be one and the same thing. And that the papa­cie is an accident grovving upon the Church, experience it self speaketh. For the subject is before his accident, which is contigent and separable: The church vvas many ages vvhen the papacie vvas not: The papacie came to the church contingently (beside the being of the Church) and so may be separated from it, as at this time also there are chur­ches, vvhere the papacie is not, & there vvill be churches still hereafter vvithout the papacie. Therefore the papa­cie is not the church, but it is an evill grovving up in the church, a pestilence, a dropsie, the gangrene in the bodie, deceiptfully working against the life and health of it, and therefore most noysomely eating up the liuely and whol­some moysture of the church. But of this vvhole matter, vve haue spoken in the 3. Controversie, & in this fourth we are to speak of it hereafter.

III Therefore concerning the other vvhich remayneth let us see, whether the papall Romane church, or that which is of the pope, be the church. The opinions vvhich are a­bout this matter are divers. The popish generation cry out vvith full mouth, that it is absolutely the church. Others not beholding a different regard of the papacie, from that vvhich is the church, deny it to be the church. VVe rely­ing both on the nature of the thing, and on the authoritie [Page 103]of the Scripture, doe put a difference. The nature of the thing doth teach, that the church is one thing, and that the papacie is another, as vve spake a litle before. The autho­ritie of the Scripture teacheth the church, but it teacheth not the papacie: therefore they are divers things. For they delude undoubtedly, I say they delude, vvhich require at our hands one definition of the subject & of the accident, as of one singular thing, or obtrude it on us. For thus must vve say, The papall church, as it hath that in it vvhich be­longeth to the definition of a church, it is a church; but as it hath in it the evill grovven unto it, which vve call the pa­pacie, in that respect it is not a church, but a faultie, deflou­red and a corrupt church, and dravving on to destruction.

Let us make it playne by a similitude. The bodie it self is one thing, the corruption or putrefaction in the bodie another thing, and the corrupted or puttrefied bodie ano­ther thing. The bodie is the subject, the corruption or pu­trefaction is the evill accident cleaving unto the subject, the corrupted or putrifyed bodie is compounded of them both. There is both the bodie, and putrefaction in the pu­trified bodie. So is a bodie that is svvolne vvith the vva­ter, causing the dropsie. Both are together, and yet so toge­ther, as eyther one of the two, or both together must needs perish. If the nature of the bodie be stronger, the corru­ption and dropsie vvater decayeth: but if the corruption or dropsie prevayle, there is most certaine destruction of thē both. So is the church of God: for in it self it is the bo­die of Iesus Christ. If a deadly disease grovve upon it, both are then together, the bodie and the disease in the bodie. If the purging medicine of the grace of God (for nothing is here naturall) be of the more efficacie, the disease then is vanquished and decayeth: but if the disease prevayle, then both of them (the bodie and the disease) must needs come to an end. For such is the condition of the disease: it both [Page 104]feedeth it self on the dodie decaying, and destroyeth it self together vvith the bodie.

After this maner therfore doe we esteeme of the church of Rome, vvhich they call the papall or popish Church. There is the Church, there is the papacie, and there is the papall Church. As there is the Church, it is the subject of God: as there is the papacie, there is the disease of man: as it is the papall church, there is a fight betvveen the church and the papacie, that will destroy eyther one of them apart, or both together. If God shall giue it the purging medicine of his grace, by meanes vvhereof the papacie, the acciden­tarie evill decaye and perish; it is vvell: but if the papacie, that most faultie and corrupt order, and deadly accident prevayle, it vvill bring destruction to both of them, both to the church and to it self, by the judgment of God.

And this novv in the memorie of our fathers and our ovvne vve see to haue befallen many churches, vvhich claue fast unto that Romane church. For when it seemed good unto God more clearely to inkindle the torch of the gospel, and to scatter the papall smokes by his spirit, there remayned churches returning by his grace to a better con­stitution and stronger health, & that vvhich is of the pope departeth vanishing avvay through his ovvne corruption: but when as God sent not that purging medicine of his di­vine grace into the bodie of any church, then the popish corrupt blood got strength more and more, which vvill be to that church deadly destruction, unles God of his mercie provide a remedie. In the remembrance and conscience of this benefit, doe our churches fitly sing vvith the Pro­phet, Blessed, be the Lord which hath not giuen us for a praye un­to their teeth. Our soule is escaped even as a bird out of the snare of the foulers: the snare is broken, and we are delivered. Our help is in the name of the Lord, &c. Psal. 124.

VVherefore in my judgment they speak preposterously, [Page 105]vvho aske vvhether the church be in the papacie: because on the contrarie it should be asked, vvhether the papacie be in the church. For the subject is not in the, accident, but the accident in the subject, vvhose being, is an in being, or to be in a thing, as men commonly speake. And that the papacie is in the church, as the order or estate of aposta­sie in the house and citie of God, is as certaine, as that of the Apostle is certaine, 2 Thes. 2. that the man of sinne, the sonne of perdition sitteth in the temple of God, vvith his vvhole order or ranke of apostates: and not on the other side, that the temple of God consisteth in that order and number of apostates, vvhich is a thing most straunge & furthest off. But the terme of the papacie taken doubly and aequivocal­ly, deceiveth them in such fort as here before vve shevved concerning the Romane popish Church. For under the name of the papacie (vvhich is a foule corrupt order) they comprehend the subject it self, which is annoyed vvith that corruptiō, not distinguishing aright between these things.

As therfore, if any should deny that to be a bodie, which lyeth in a deadly sort svvollen vvith the vvater of the drop­sie, or should affirme that vvater which choketh the bodie, to be the bodie it self, should in both these be deceived in his judgment: so also are both deceived, as vvell they vvhich deny it to be the church, because the papacie is in it, as they vvhich avouch the papacie to be the church it self, vvhich we haue before disproved. The papacie is a poyson in the church, vvhich poyson must needs be vomited out, if it vvill be preserved: or els the church vvill be extingui­shed by it, if it suffer that poyson to prevayle, and possesse all the veynes of the bodie.

But how can she be the church, (will some say) in which the papacie is? To witte, as there is the bodie, in which a disease vvorketh. But because the papacie is a deadly cor­ruption, the more that the papacie getteth strength, the [Page 106]more the church is vveakned: the increase of the one, is the decrease of the other. And hence it cōmeth to passe, that in the churches vvhich are called popish, some are more healthie, & some more unhealthie then others: the more healthie are those, which haue lesse of the papacie, & more of the church: and those are the more unhealthie which haue more of the papacie & lesse of the church: and of this kinde, I doubt not that church to be, vvhich at this day is at Rome. For it had long agoe giuen up the ghost, if God by the imposition of his grace and long suffring had not nourished and kept it vvarme.

Notvvithstanding that vve may giue content unto their mindes, vvhich doe not yet reach unto these things, or thinke that they are more subtily then truly spoken of the church vvhich they call the papall or popish church: let us ansvver this question in fevv vvords, from the regard of all particular churches, as they are among men, or in conside­ration of things humane. Everie church, vvhich in deed is a Church, is considered tvvo vvayes, on Gods behalf (as they speake) and on our behalf. On Gods behalf, it is alto­gether a church, vvheresoever there is found a companie called of God, vvith his calling by the spirit and the holie Scripture, and the ministerie of persons ordeyned for ho­lie things, and divine actions. On our behalf there is no Church at all, (although it be so of God, as vve haue sayd) to vvhich there doth not cleaue corruption, concerning the persons, things, actions, and finally the vvhole ministe­rie of man ordeyned by God. And that vvhich is on Gods part, is not taken away by our default, so long as it seemeth good unto the Lord, to acknovvledge it for his Church, & call it with his calling, by the spirit, & holie Scripture, & the ministerie. For shall the unbelees of mē, (saith the Apostle, Ro. 3.3.) make the sayth of God without effect? shal the vveak­nes of mā make voyde the truth of God? or his imperfectiō [Page 107]the perfection of God? Farre be it off: yea let God be true & everie man a lyer, sayth the Apostle in the same place.

VVe vvill make the matter playne by an example and similitude out of the vvords of Ieremie, chap. 3. A vvife being filthie vvith adulteries, if her husband vvill pardon her, and consent to receiue her, and to dvvell vvith her, she abideth still the vvife of her husband, not by her ovvne deede doone (for she hath broken wedlock, vvhat in her vvas) but by the benefit or goodnes of her husband. So a Church overflovving not onely vvith lighter infirmities, but also vvith heavie adulteries, on her part in deed should cease to be a vvife, but she ceaseth not on her husbands part. For touching the election, as the Apostle sayth, Rom. 11.28. she is beloved for the fathers sakes, speaking of the church of the Iewes. It is a church so long as God calling her pro­claymeth that vvhich is in Ier. 3.13. Onely acknowledge thine iniquitie, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy waies to the straungers under everie green tree, and ye haue not obeyed my voyce, sayth the Lord. Turne, ô backslyding people, sayth the Lord, for I am maryed unto you, & I will take you &c. It is so long a church, as God protesting calleth upon it departing from him and being rebellious, as it is in Esa. 50, 1. Where is the bil of your mothers diverce­ment, wherewith I put her away? or who is there of my credi­tours to whom I sould you? &c. The church then at length ceaseth to be a church, vvhen God ceaseth to call it back, & taketh avvay the evidence of that holie marriage, that is, the holie Scripture, out of the hand of the adulteres, and her that is stubburne, testifying that the matrimonie is dis­solved on his part, and so receiveth the covenant of grace unto himself. It is not for any man, to deny that to be a church, which God calleth a church. Neyther is it for any man, to call that a church, vvhich God, having giuen the bil of divorce, and taken avvay the draught of the mariage [Page 108]contract, denyeth so to be.

And after this maner doe vve esteeme of the Church in vvhich the papacie is. God calleth her vvith his calling, by his spirit, and vvord, and the publike records of that holie mariage (vvhich vve call the holie Scripture) and the mi­nisterie, and things, and holy actions, vvhich before vve haue briefly reckoned up. These things doe remayne to that church most manifestly, on Gods behalf. But in that on the behalf of men all these things and holie actions, to­gether vvith the verie persons themselues, abound and o­verflovve, vvith most grievous & deadly corruptions, that is the sinne of men, not the fault of God; vvhose grace & truth is perfected in infirmitie. On Gods part, she is yet called Hammi, my people, and Ruchama, finding mercie, which most truly on her part, might be called Lo hammi, not my people, and Lo ruchama, not obteyning mercie, as vve read in Hosea the Prophet. But vve rely upon the mercie of God, and according to his grace revealed, vve speake our minde, or vve giue our sentence concerning a church erring and going astray.

But this Church hath everie thing in it corrupt. I con­fesse it. But in that it hath all the divine things in the Scri­tures, it is of God: in that it hath them all corrupt, that is of it self: in that it hath all the divine things, it is a church, in that it hath the same all corrupt, it is a corrupt church. The church is not taken avvay by corruption, unles it be totall (as they speak) vvhich they call destruction. A cor­ruption that is in part doth not take avvay a Church, but vveaken it. The Church of Rome hath all things corrupt, but not altogether: this is not a destruction, but is to be called a corruption of it in part.

For (to prosecute these heads particularly, vvhich vvee haue briefly noted in the consideration of the Church) God by the alone presence of himself calling, doth lay the [Page 109]foundation of the Church, in Christ the head thereof. The church of Rome addeth another foundation to this foun­dation, and to this head another nevv head (vvhereupon it is called papall or popish) vvherein it may likevvise rest. The calling is to God alone; in the church of Rome there is calling to others vvith God, and the calling upon them. Here is calling by the spirit and Scripture alone, vvhence it receiveth the ministerie, & delivereth nothing more, thē that vvhich it hath received from the Lord: there it recei­veth a ministerie from the spirit of Christ, & of the Pope, from the Scripture, and the ragged traditions of men: here finally the persons, things and actions are caried, according to the doctrine of the Spirit, & the Scripture onely: there all things are taken and exercised out of the Popes change­able shoppe, and at his beck (as they say) they stand and fall. So all the marks on Gods behalf are in it: but for it self, on it ovvne part (as they say) there is no marke intire, no marke that is not corrupt by the papall poysonfull sor­cerie, and the order of all things most miserably perverted. For vvhich cause in Lyons in France, a certayne Frier did merrily preach to the people, vvhen he sayd the Hugonots (for so they are called in France) did consent vvith the church of Rome in all their articles of fayth, but there was one shrevvd vvord, the vvord Onely, at the crack vvhereof vvarre vvas inkindled, for they beleeue onely vvhat the rule of fayth hath out of the holie Scriptures: but the church of Rome requireth more unto fayth then is eyther conteyned in the rule of fayth, or in the holie Scriptures, because such is the authoritie of the Church.

These things being vvell understood, all men vvill ea­sely perceiue hovv that church, in respect of God or on Gods part, is yet a church; but of it self is most corrupt, & very nere to destruction. But here doe arise tvvo doubts & difficulties, by vvhich the mindes of many are troubled. [Page 110]The first doubt is, vvhat vve are to judge of the members of that church: The latter vvhat the dutie of them is vvho are in that church, and see the great corruptions thereof.

To the first question we ansvver on this manner. A threefold judgment had neede meet together in this cause: the first, of truth; the second, of charitie; the third, of prudence or vvisdome. The judgment of truth is of the common condition of the church, by vvhich vve judge frō the calling of God, that as yet she is a church. The judge­ment of charitie is of the severall mēbers of the church, by vvhich we presume they be members of the church, whilst they are called vvith the calling of God, and are in this way as David calleth it Psal. 2. The judgement of prudence or vvisdome, is that by vvhich vve discerne and distinguish persons, things and actions divine from humane, good ones from evill, true ones from false, and the degrees of these also amongst themselues. For as of things & actions, so also of persons some are corrupting through ignorance infirmitie, or malice vvholly, or in part; others are corru­pted, euen in the simplicitie of their hearts as the Scripture speaketh: and of these there are a great number, of vvhom it vvere ungodly to esteeme that they vvere not of the church of God. Of such as doe corrupt we must take heed, Mat. 7. of the corrupted, vvho yet are still corrupted vve must haue compassion. But the Church verely is not to be judged of the maner of either of these. for Christ saith not, ye shall not knovve the Church, but by their fruits of do­ctrine and life ye shall knowe them, Mat. 7.20. And vvith­out doubt, they doe very unvvisely who judge of the truth of a church, by the particular life or doctrine of any men, vvho ever they be, especially of private men: for the cal­ling of God maketh the church, not the assenting ansvver of the men that are in it: as on the other side the church ceaseth not to be a church for the refusal, or denial of men, [Page 111]vvheresoever the calling of God is. Novv let us come to the second demaund.

VVhat is the dutie of those (vvilt thou say) that are in the Popish Church, and see the grievous corruptions of it? Their dutie is such as of those children, vvhich dvvell to­gether vvith their adulterous mother: for God used this similitude in Esaie and Ieremie, as vve haue seene before. A vvise sonne vvill even from his heart abhorre the sinne of his mother, he vvill vvith speach and signe call back his mother from evil, and he vvill absteyne himself from it: and in all things he vvill cleaue to his father, he vvill stand to his judgement, he vvill obey his vvil: and vvhile he can by reason of his mother, he vvill cleaue unto her, next after his father: but vvhiles by reason of her he can not doe it vvith good conscience, for the spirituall and bodily injurie of her,Closet or Inner roome. he vvill betake himself into the chamber of his fa­ther, vvhere also the church is the mother of us all. Gal. 4.26. For this is not a good consequent, if one depart from this or that church, therefore he doth altogether departe from the church. He but trifles vvho doth so from a parti­cular, conclude universally. A part of the flesh if it be di­vided or cut asunder from another part by a vvound recei­ved, is not straight vvay to be thought to be separate or cut off from the vvhole bodie: for it is cutte asunder, and the mouth of the vvound openeth, but neyther part is therfore disjoyned from the bodie. A godly sonne therefore ought to cleaue to his father and mother joyntly, so long as vvith good conscience he can: but because he cānot vvith sound fayth and conscience haue fellovvship with the unfrutefull vvorks of darkenes, Eph. 5, 11. he rather leaving his mo­ther, cleaveth to God his father, & our Lord Iesus Christ, then that he vvill defile himself vvith those foule deedes of his mother.

And this did our auncestors religiously, vvhom the po­pish [Page 112]tyrannie for some ages hath exercised. The godly vvhich vvere at Rome, and other vvhere in the church vvhich they call the Romane church abusiuely, first lear­ned to abhorre even from their soule, the sinnes of their mother, vvhen once they began to haue right understan­ding; by vvords and signes they modestly called her back from her naughtie deeds, vvhiles she vvould beare them, they carefully absteyned themselues from all communica­tion of evill, yet in all things cleaving to their father, from vvhom, in vvhom, by vvhom, & for whom are all things, standing to his judgment, and obeying his vvill: finally they did so long cleaue to their mother next after their fa­ther, vvhilst by her they could so doe vvith intire fayth and conscience, and their ovvne salvation. But vvhen they could not longer vvith good fayth and conscience so doe, by reason of the violent tyrannie, and the spirituall & cor­porall injurie of their furious mother, then being ashamed with her shamefulnes & resting silent, they betooke them­selues into their fathers bosome and his inner roome, al­beit that she pursued them outragiously: least they being ashamed of her, should be sayd to shame her, as strumpets are usually vvoont to doe.

For which causes, I doe humbly beseech God the Father of our Lord Iesus, that he would both by his saving calling informe, direct and care for his church, and vvhatsoever belongeth to his church, & that he would also teach everie one that is in it his truth, and the truth of his church: and that he vvould so vvorke, as they vvisely absteyning from all evils, especially from those vvhich the sonne of perdi­tion, and author of the apostasie hath brought in, and ta­king heed of the spirit of lyes, & the efficacie of his errour, they may religiously cleaue unto the Father and his good things, in everie of them, and to their mother next after the father (or so farre as she accordeth vvith the Father): [Page 113]that increasing in his truth, pietie, fayth & loue they may bestovve and employe all their studies to the edification of the church, the salvation of all, and the glorie of that our heavenly Father. &c.

God the Father and the Lord Iesus Christ, by that eter­nall spirit of his eternall truth, bring to passe, that the wiles of Sathan being driven avvay, vve may all grovve dayly in Christ, in the church, and in the truth of Christ and the Church, and that vve may more and more confirme one another in loue unfayned, to his glorie and the common salvation of us all. Amen.

HItherto Mr. Iunius. VVith whom agreeth Aman­dus Polanus, noting some errours of Bellarmines about Antichrist) in his Cōmentarie upon Ezech. 39. at the ende thereof, pag. 733. VVhere he sayth thus, The Messias of the Iewes is not Antichrist, but a false Christ, where­as the great Antichrist, of whom the Scriptures foretell, shall pro­fesse himself to be a Christian, and under the name of Christ fight against Christ, because he must sitte in the Temple of God, 2 Thes. 2.4. in the Temple (I say) not Iewish or at Ierusalem, but Christian, that is, in the Christian Church: as Chrysostome teacheth, and Theophylact, Ambrose, Hilarius, Hierome, Theo­doret, Oecumenius, Augustine, and Thomas Aquinas also. See the testimonies (sayth he) in our Catholick Symphonie, chap. 23. Thes. 3.

And Bartholomeus Keckermannus, speaking in a treatise of his, of the properties of the church, inferreth thus there­upon, and sayth: Now if we examine the Popish church accor­ding to these proprieties, it will appeare that it is not a pure Church, but verie corrupt, like as a rotten apple is in deed an ap­ple, but corrupt: & as a man corrupted with the plague is a man, but not a sound man. Keckerman. Praeparat. ad sacram syna­xin. pag. 83.

And divers other the like sayings out of these and other writers of this age might be alledged, but these may suffice: specially seeing vve build not our sayth on man, but onely on the vvord of God. Yet vve thought it not amisse to shevv vvhat others at this daye thinke of this matter: not onely for the reason noted herebefore at the beginning, but because also we doubt not, but by this meanes the light of the truth vvill be more cleared, for the better informa­tion of such as loue the truth in sinceritie; and the follie of others more repressed, vvho (being caryed vvith praeju­dice or malice against us) open their mouthes vvide not onely against us, but even against the truth it self that is te­stified by us. VVhom vve desire that even for their ovvne good they vvill be persvvaded novv at length better to exa­mine and ponder all the matters aforesayd, then as yet they haue done.

ANd thus haue I hitherto noted dovvne such things, as concerne our publike estate, and the foresayd di­vision so much spoken of in this book. Novv al­though for the personall injuries & reproches abounding in the same book, I had thought to haue passed them over vvith the Advertisement formerly giuen thereabout: yet seeing we understand, that both here & in our ovvne coun­trey vve are greatly abused about M. Studley in particular, and some matters concerning him, vvhereabout himself also is much traduced: I haue therefore thought it not amisse to insert somewhat here concerning him more par­ticularly. And this I doe the rather, because that vvhich I doe annexe hereabout, is his ovvne Ansvver, made (at our earnest intreatie) by himself, vvho said that othervvise he vvould haue rested in silence, possessing his soule vvith pa­cience, [Page 115]and committing the matter to the Lord. And this it is as follovveth.

A Wicked man diggeth up evil, and in his lips is like burning fire. Prov. 16.27. Myne enemie hath sharpned his eyes against me. Iob. 16.9. They haue opened their mouths upon me, and smitten me on the cheeke in reproach: they ga­ther thēs [...]lues together against me. Iob. 16.10. All vvhich malicious cariage and unsufferable dealing, (of some heretofore, and these four persons (Lawne, Fowler, Saunders and Bulward) novv lately against me also, I could haue borne in silence, and committed my cause and their dealing to God, the judge of all mens actions, and the re­vvarder of everie one, according to their deeds. Yet in some other respect, as heretofore I haue given my ansvver to others, so doe I novv here agayne, to some speciall things, vvritten by these men in reproach of me: And namely, to those eight articles, vvhich vvere given for the deposing of me from office: other particulars scattered in their book besides these, I vvill not trouble my self nor the Reader about them vvith any particular ansvvers to them: neyther vvould I with these, had they not ben brought in­to our congregation and there handled. And for ought I yet minde, I purpose hereafter, not to make any reply to such vvicked cariage and raylings of men, but stand to the rules ecclesiasticall, appointed by Christ in his Church, & the ordinance of God, vvhich he hath set up in the povver [Page 116]and authoritie of Magistracie in the common vvealth, and there make my ansvver to vvhatsoever men haue against me: For vvho that beareth the heart and minde of a man, vvould not rather dye by the sword of the Magistrate, then to be smitten vvith the Machivilian tongues of base com­paniōs, whose vile dealings by this odious cariage of theirs, makes as if there were no lavvfull authoritie to examine & judge the actions of men, by good and vvholsome lavves, but as though things vvere left in confusion, to be svvayed after the lusts of envious persons for the devouring one of another. And vvhat unsufferable abuse these men offer unto sacred thrones by such disordered courses of theirs, I leaue to be judged of those that are prudent. And for what­soever these men haue spoken and vvritten of me, vvere it no prejudice to the truth I professe, nor to my self for hol­ding the same, I would willingly adventure into my owne Countrie, (whether some of these my adversaries are gone and vvhere they printed this their book) to call and entreat for lavve and justice about these matters: but things stan­ding as they doe (vvhich God vvhen he seeth good can re­forme) let men in the meane time ride upon my head, by making book after book to my reproach & infamie, I will beare them on my shoulders, and repenting of my sinnes, vvith amendement of life, I vvill in fayth and pacience, looke up to Christ my redeemer, the author and finisher of my fayth, vvho for my sake and the rest of his elect, en­dured the crosse, and despised the shame, and is set at the right hand of the throne of God: from vvhence I expect him, to receiue me vvith all his into eternall glorie, and to recompence these men (except they repent) vvith shame and confusion, according to their deeds. Novv follovve their articles, and my ansvver to them.

For his filthines used to his wiues daughter, Article 1. with that most ungodly allegation for the defence thereof. &c.

The first part of this Article, I did long agoe confesse, & also by this occasion, I doe here agayne acknovvledge, Answer. that my behaviour tovvards her, vvas sinfull and unseemly, yet for ought that ever I did to her, (hovvsoever some uncha­ritably, and others maliciously haue vvritten and spoken) vvas farre from carnall copulation. The second part of this article, touching the allegation, is false. The author of it, being novv none of us, vvas yet sent unto (vvhen I vvas dealt vvithall in publike about these things) to come and proue this his accusation: vvhich if he refused so to doe, it should be upon himself as a false charge; and he refused & vvould not come; vvhich if he had, I could, and (through Gods assistance) I can proue it to be a slander.

For writing a most ungodly letter, conteyning in it many vile and ungodly speaches, Artic. 2. some of it being in most abhominable ver­ses. &c.

I vvrote to N. three letters: to tvvo of them he replyed, the third vvhich is this here spoken of, Answer. he ansvvered not: but taking his advantage, at some unsavorie vvords, & un­vvarrantable speaches therein, vvhich unadvisedly slipt frō me, being moved (I confesse) vvith the indirect ansvvers he gaue to my first tvvo letters: he taking this advantage, made a journey from Leyden to Amsterdam, to deale with me for it: and so did, himself first, and then vvith two wit­nesses; who because I vvould not (nor for ought I yet see I ever can) acknovvledge the vvhole letter to be sclande­rous, they brought me to the publike Congregatiō, where I did acknovvledge my sinne for all such vvords and spea­ches vvhich was objected to me for evil in that letter, & al­so for the maner of writing as I did. And after this I wrote a fourth letter to him, verie short and brief, out of which he could take no advantage, for then I should soone haue heard from him; neyther is he able, as I am perswaded, without disadvantage to himself, to giue a playne & direct [Page 118]answer to it, therefore he is content to burie it in silence. And touching those verses vvhich so maliciously they speak of; and vvhich vvere but a fewe; I haue (for the evil in them layd unto my charge) made my acknovvledgment for the same, and that in publike. But as these men haue set them dovvne, with as much odiousnes as their corrupt affections could afforde, and as others may gather thereby, I can not so acknovvledge, vvithout great vvronging of my self: for some haue ben vvith me, vvho also in the like generall termes (as is used by these adversaries) haue spokē verie hardly of those verses. VVhereupon I asked them, if they had seen or heard them: they sayd no, but by the re­port of others. I prayed them tell me vvhat particular evil they thought to be in them: they shooke the head, & with sighing sayd, they thought they vvere filthy vile verses. I asked agayne, if they thought them vile and filthie, in cur­sing, blaspheming, and such like: they sayd no, but in ri­baldrie and unchast speaches; hereupon I did repeat them, and then asked vvhat novv they thought of them: they de­maunded of me, if they vvere no other then as I had rela­ted; I told them that so they vvere & no other. At which, they pausing a vvhile, vvith admiration sayd; undoubtedly then are you exceedingly abused. VVherefore it lyes me upō, to be vvarie vvhat ansvver I giue upon generall termes, knowing it is no new thing, by wringing the nose to force out blood, nor to use and loue so to use all words that may destroy; vvherein these my four adversaries, vvith their contrivers and composers of that their malicious rayling book, haue shevved themselues Sathan like skilfull. VVil­ling I am alwayes to acknowledge my sinne, as it is indeed: and othervvise to doe, is neyther pleasing to God, nor cō ­fort to my ovvne soul: And this I knovve, that the sub­ject and ground, vvhereupon my letters vvith these verses vvere vvritten, and vvhereof some of themselues at Ley­den, [Page 119]haue thus vvritten also, as is to be seen under their their ovvne hands; viz. that the matters between N and Ms. N are verie waightie, and apparant it is, that eyther he or she are in grieveous iniquitie: therefore I knovve as before I haue said, vvhen these matters betweene N. and Ms. N. are tryed out, which are the groūd of all my letters to him, my vvritings vvill be eyther vvorse censured (if so it vvere possible) then novv they be, or more favorably construed by unpartiall judges, then yet they are. My desire then is, there vvere an end hereof; vvhich till there be, litle flies & knats, may hang fast in the spiders vvebbe, vvhilst great flies and vvaspes breake through and get avvay; but when there is an issue of these things, the apparant grievous iniqui­tie aboue mentioned, vvhich yet lyes smothered and hid, vvill follovve after to be found on some, as my sinnes a­bout the handling of these matters haue gone before and ben urged on me. VVherefore if no other vvill take in hand to finde out in vvhō that grievous iniquitie is, which lyes but betvveen two persons, vvhat if my self doe assaye once agayne to doe it? alvvayes provided (through the grace of God) to take more heed to my vvords and spea­ches then heretofore I haue done. VVhat (I say) if thus I doe? vvill any be offended vvith me, seeing the truth or falshood of the reproach (that about these matters lyes upon me) can not be rightly knowen, till these things be ended. And besides, the vvoman her self, when she depar­ted from Amsterdam, to returne to England, did require of me (as before the Lord) not to let these matters rest, till the truth were found out: also seeing I can shevve under writing, both of his and hers, touching these affaires, more I am perswaded then any others also; I see not vvhy any should mislike of my purpose to haue yet further dealing in these things. If any can shewe me sufficient reasons vvhy I should not, I am vvilling to forbeare; otherwise I purpose [Page 120](God assisting me) to goe on as I haue sayd, having those reasons for my ground vvhich above I haue all edged.

For teaching many wicked and ungodly songes and rimes un­to children, Artic. 3. when he kept schoole, in stead of catechising thē. &c.

VVhen I kept a schoole of some few small children, Ansvv. (I speak the truth) I cōmonly taught them day by daye their ordinarie lessons eight tymes over; besides instructing and catechising them in principles of religion, & also making them learne some sentences from the Scripture vvithout book, and not many (no, nor yet any) wicked ungodly songs & rimes, as here is falsely alledged. And one of these men themselues repeating one (and I suppose the vvorst he could) which he sayd some of the childrē affirmed I taught them, I told him as the truth is, I never heard it till it came out of his mouth: the partie vvas Robert Bulvvard.

For disclosing the counsel of the Eldership to Marie Maye in some prrticulars, Artic. 4. as we can playnly proue in time and place, &c.

This being false, Ansvv. as it is, they vvill never finde time and place to proue it.

For his many lascivious attempts, to a young mayd now of late, Artic. 5. with his beastly behaviour, to intice her to satisfie his owne lust, unmeet to be named, &c.

For my evill cariage to that mayde (about tvvo yeeres since) I confesse to my owne shame, Ansvv. that I haue done foo­lishly once, yea tvvise: but I trust, through Gods grace, I shall never doe so againe; yet as these enimies, both here and elsewhere in their book haue set it dovvne, it is a false calumniation; for (speaking of it with sorrovve and grief of heart, and unfaynedly repenting for it) I doe acknow­ledge, that though my behaviour to her vvas bad & unseē ­ly, yet not vvith any intention of the act, as these men in­timate, neyther spake I so much as one unchast vvord to her at any time. That vvhich I did, and onely intended to doe, vvas clapping her onely. Therefore as I haue often [Page 121]spoken, and here novv set it under my hand, as the truth is? by any thing that ever I did unto her, I knovve not vvhe­ther she be male or female: And concerning the act it self, this I say further, vvhich all the world could not compell me to speak, neyther vvould I haue it a president, that any should be pressed to doe the like, (no not any of these my four adversaries, least some of them who knovve vvhat I say, should fall into a greater sinne then the act it self): for that vvhich here I utter, it is of my ovvne accord, vvhich I need not to doe, yet I doe it, and this it is; That in all my life to this present daye, I haue not knovven any vvoman, young nor old, maryed vvife, vvidowe, nor mayde, saue onely my lavvfull vviues (having had two) and not them neyther, till I vvas lavvfully maryed to them: nor to any other had I ever thought or word, in that respect: and for the truth hereof, I take the Lord to vvitnes, vvho onely knovveth the heart, and will bring the waie of the wicked upon his head, and justifie the righteous, to giue him ac­cording to his righteousnes. Let these men novv, and all others, vvho haue eyther vvritten or spoken herein, most unjustly, knovve they shall giue account for the same un­lesse God giue them repentance, vvhich I desire may be giuen, to my greatest adversaries. Moreover, whereas here they insinuate, and in other places of their book haue spo­ken more playnly, of the discovering of my nakednes, and the maydes seeing it; I testifie, it is more then I can say for cer­tayne, vvhether she did see me or no; but considering how our houses stood, vvith the vvindowes & doores one over against the other, & knowing in what case, my self some­time by occasion was in my ovvne house, it mought be she did so see me, & it mought be othervvise: yet for any word or deed, that passed from me to her, I could (were it not for the circumstances aforesayd) directly affirme, she never so saw me. But notwithstanding all this I haue said, [Page 122]I doe yet freely confesse, that what was wanting in me, to haue had more heed & care unto my self, for the avoyding of her or any other so to haue seene me, was my great transgression, praying God to forgiue me it, as all other my sinnes vvhatsoever.

There were brought sixteene articles against him, to proue the tenour & course of his life to be partiall, Artic. 6. wherof two were proved, & acknowledged by him, and the residue of sixteene were confes­sed in generall, &c.

There were fifteene persons, that factiously had their meetings sundrie times, Answer. to cousult and plot against me, de­termining vvith and among themselues, to haue dismist me frō my office. Here was a beginning to tread the path­vvaie unto popular governmēt, the verie baine to all good order in church and comon vveale: and for the ground of their proceeding against me, they framed fourteen (not six­teene as these men untruly say) matters against me, some of seven yeeres old, others of lesse time, some of them eyther ended in the church, or past by of the church, and others of them private matters, never dealt in by any [...]le: which cari [...]d and dealing of heirs, being observed, and for the further finding out of their evil herein, it vvas demaunded of them, vvho vvere the authors of these their meetings, and hovv often, and vvhere they met, vvhich they refusings to shevve, vvere therefore, and for these their meetings & evil cariage in these matters, rebuked by the church, & they vvilled that had any thing against me; to deale vvith me by order & rule; vvhich yet they never did: One of thē there vvas (vvho since is departed this life) that came unto me & acknovvledged his fault, affirming that himself had no­thing against me, but was chawen by the rest, onely to giue his consent to their proceedings, vvhich he the more wil­lingly yeelded unto, having (as he manifested) a spleene a­gainst me: vvhich he said, some of these men knovving, [Page 123]did by urging the same, worke upō him to doe that he did: and he said moreover, that if a scholar had reproved him as I did (vvhich vvas of unsound doctrine of somevvhat he spake in publike) he could vvell haue borne it, but I that vvas none, to reproue him that vvas one, this made him to stomake me, vvhich he confessed vvas evill in him, and so sayd he (as now he playnely savv) vvas the dealing of those men tovvards me, vvhich he perceived to be rather of ma­lice, then any just cause they had against me. Further, whō these men vvere rebuked, & willed to deale vvith me as is aforesaid, I prayed thē to give me a copie of the things they had framed against me, promising, that vvhen I had consi­dered of them, if I savve any thing in vvhich I had offen­ded, I vvould freely of my self acknovvledge the same: but this vvhich vvas so reasonable a request, I could never get of them: vvhich playnly shevves both the evill dealing of the refusers thus to doe, & the falsehood of these men, who haue printed that two of the matters brought against me, were proved & acknowledged by me, Pag. 15 & 16. & the rest in generall maner I cōfessed: That vvhich I confessed, vvas onely this here fol­lovving; There vvas one particular about Iudith [...]der, vvhich they pressed as hard against me, as their hatred was tovvards me, vvhich vvas to the uttermost of their power, & I as vvell as I could, stood for my ovvne defence, & thus, much time, and many vvords being spent, one of the bre­thren spake to this effect,A.P. viz. that a mā mought be sayd to be partiall, eyther by being nor able to judge or discerne a­right the cause he handleth, & so erre in the sentence he gi­veth: Or being well able to judge of a matter, yet through negligence, & not using that care & diligence to search into it as he ought, the matter is shut up with that unequall judgment, vvhich othervvise vvould not so haue ben: To vvhich I ansvvered to this effect, That if the vvord partiall (for to get this vvord from me was now all their strife) [Page 124]would in any of those respects, satisfy thē, I would not stād to justifie my self, but that in such regard I mought be par­tiall. Hereupon, my accusers vvere quiet, and rested in this my acknovvledgment; and no other, nor othervvise, were any of their fourteen articles eyther proved by thē or con­fessed by me. There vvas also an exliortation, giuen to my self by the Pastor, that I should take heed to the office, which I had received in the Lord, to fulfill it, &c. And this is the verie sūme & effect of the handling of these matters, and the end and issue whereunto they were brought: & by which maner of ending them, my adversaries had more fa­vour then they were worthy, & my self susteyn greater re­proach then in these things I haue deserved: but it is part of my manifold crosses wherwith the Lord hath exercised me in this vvorld, and I will beare it. And thus having made my answer to this sixt article in their book objected, I leaue to indifferent judges, to weigh how falsely & enviously these four men haue dealt with me also herein.

Also, Article 7. at the same time, it was proved, that he tooke part with Iudith Holder in knowen evill, &c.

[...] this article, Answer. being like the former, that is, false and malicious, proveth these men to partake vvith Sathan, & by him to be set on worke to lye sclander & calūniate, accor­ding to his and their owne evill dispositions.

For counseling Marie May to lye with her husband before they were maryed, Artic. 8. &c.

These turbulent & outragious persons, haue takē coun­sel of Machivel, Ansvv. to disgrace men, by clamours reproaching, knovving that such things, being once cast upon men, though never so false, and by never so vile creatures, yet vvill ever after, leaue some blot & stayne behinde them; therfore haue they also in this their eight & last article, be­sprinckled me with the poyson of asps under their tongues, by falsely slaundering me herein, as the Lord knoweth, [Page 125]And these unconscionable men cannot be ignorant, hovv the vvoman her self hath in our publike congregation, af­firmed, I never gaue her that counsel: besides Clement Saun­ders, (if not all the rest of them) doth knowe for certaine, that another of the Elders with my self brought her to the Church, for her transgressing in that action.

And now that these my deadly adversaries haue shewed their malice against me to the full, as their detestable and abhominable book (so esteemed & spoken of by many) doth proclame unto the world: let them not thinke, but that themselues are such, vvhose sinnes are with & before the Lord, the alseeing God, and most just judge: to whom for all their wicked speakings I leaue them eyther for mer­cie or for judgement, according to his good wil & pleasure. And touching all & everie one of the particulars both litle and great, vvith their long & lothsome cōparison between me & another, vvherewith they haue reproached me in their book, they are eyther mere lyes, or falsely related, or vvickedly perverted, & not one of them otherwise: saue onely those my sinnes, which I haue in this my answer cō ­fessed. VVhich sinnes of mine, as I knovve & am assured, the Lord hath forgiven, so doe I humbly beseech all those to whose eares the offence of my sinnes past are come, that they also vvould forgiue me, as themselues doe expect in fayth, to be pardoned of God, for all their sinnes and tres­passes.