¶ An answeare to the whole Epistle to the Church.

WHat causes eyther pulled you forward / or thrust you backward / to wryte / or not to wryte / and how in thys dispute / wyth your selfe / in the end you were resolued to write in thys sort / I leaue it vnto the iudgement of the Lord / who only knoweth the secretes of the heart / and will in his good time vn­seale them. But if there be any place of coniecture / the hatred of contention / whych you set downe / as the first and principall cause / that beat you backe from wryting / might well haue ben put / as the last and least / or rather none at all. For if peace had bene so precious vnto you (as you pretend) you woulde not haue brought so many hard wordes / bitter reproches / enemylike speaches (as it were stickes and coales) to double / and treble / the heat of contention. If the sharpnes of the Admonition misliked you / and you thinke they outreached in some vehe­mency of words / how could you more effectually haue cōfuted that / then to haue in a quiet and milde spirite set them in the way / which (in your opinion) had left it? now in words condenming it / and approuing it in your dedes / I wil not say / that you do not so much mislike thys sharpness / as you are sory / that you are pre­uented / and are not the first in it: But this I may well say vnto you / whych he sayd: Quid verba audiam, cum facta videam? what should I heare words / when I see the dedes? In the fourth reason / wherby you were discouraged to wryte / if by backbiters / and vnlearned tongs / viperous kinde of men / not able to iudge of controuersies / caryed away wyth affections / and blinde zeale into diuers si­nister iudgements / and erronious opinions / you meane all those / that thinke not as you do in these matters: I answere for my selfe / and for as many as I know [Page 9] of them / that they are they / which first desire (so it be truely) to heare / and speak [...] all good of you. But if that be not / through your perseuerance / in the mainte­naunce of the corruptions of this church (which you should helpe to purge) then the same are they / that desire / that both the euill which you haue done / and that which you haue yet in your hart to doe / may be knowen / to the lesse discredite of the truth and sinceritie / which you / with such might and mayne doe striue a­gaynst. Touching our vnlearned tongues / we had rather a great deale / they were vnlearned / then they should be as theirs / * which haue taught their tunges Iere. 9. 5. to speake falsly. And how vnlearned so euer you would make the world beleue / that we / and our tunges be / I hope (through the goodnesse of God / ) they shall be learned enough / to defend the truthe / agaynst all the learning that you shall be able to assault it with. If those be the * generation of Christ / which you call Is. 53. 8. viperous kynde of men: know you that you haue not opened your mouth against earth / but you haue set it agaynst heauen / & for all indifferent iudgement / it will easely perceiue / that you are as far from the spirite of * Iohn Baptist / as you Mat. 3. 7. are nere to hys maner of speche. Which you vse / whether it be affection / or blind zeale / that we follow / and are driuen by / it will then appeare / when the reasons of both sides / being layde out / shall be wayed indifferently. Whereas you say / that your duetie towards God / and the Queene her maiesty / moued you to take thys laboure in hande / it will fall out / vppon the discourse / that / as you haue not serued the Lord God in thys enterprise and worke of youres / so haue you done nothing lesse / then any godly duetie / which you owe vnto her Maiestie: so / that the best that can be thought of you herein / is / that wherein an euill matter / you coulde yelde no duetie / yet now you haue done that / which you thought a duetie / which iudgeinent / we will so long keepe of you / vntill you shall by oppugning of a knowen truth / declare the contrary / which we hope will not be. What truth it is / that we impugne / and you defend / let it in the name of God appeare / by our seuerall proufes and answeares of both sides. And / as for the slaunderous sur­mises / whereby in your third and last consideration / you set the Papistes of the one side of vs / and the Anabaptistes of the other / and vs in the middest / reach­ing out our handes (as it were) to them both: first it ought not to be strange vnto vs miserable sinners / seeing that the Lord hym selfe / without all sinne / was pla­ced in the middest of two greuous malefactors / as though he had bene worse / then they both. Then for answere of those slaunderous speaches / I will referre the Reader to those places / where these generall charges / are geuen out / in more particular manner.

An answere to that which is called a briefe examination of the rea­sons vsed in the Admonition to the Parliament.

IF the scriptures had bene applyed to the mayntenaunce of the abhomination of the masse / and some other of the grossest of antichristianitie / you could haue sayd no more / nor vsed vehementer speache then thys / that they are most vn­tollerably abused / and vnlearnedly applyed. And then where is charitie / which Pro. 10. 12. couereth the multitude of faultes / especially in brethren / when you do not only not couer them / but also take away their garmentes / whereby they are couered. I will not deny / but that there be some few places quoted / whych might haue bene spared / but there are a great number / which (M. Doctor) tosseth & throw­eth away so lightly / which he shall perceiue to sit nearer him / then he is / or at the least someth to be aware of. And to bring to passe that y^• quotations in the mar­gent might appeare to the reader more absurde / M. Doctor hath besides the ad­uantage which he taketh of the faultes of the Printer / vsed two vnlawfull prac­tisies especially. Wherof the one is / that where as the admonition doth quote the [Page 10] scripture / not only to proue the matters which it handleth / but sometimes also to note the place from whence the phrase of speache is taken. M. Doctor doth go about to make hys reader beleue / that those places which be alledged for profe of the phrase / are quoted for proofe of the matter. The other practise is / that where the Admonition (for the shortnes whych it promiseth / and was necessary in that case) could not apply the places / M. Doctor presuming too muche of the igno­rance of hys reader / thought he might make him beleue / that any thing else was meant by those places / then that which they meant in deede / and for which they were alledged. And where you say the quotations are only to delude such. &c. I see you holde it no fault in your selfe / which you condemne so precisely in others / that is / to iudge before the time / to sit in the cōscience / to affirme definitely of their thoughts / contrary to their owne protestation. But seeing you lift vp our imper­fections so high / and set them as it were vpon a stage for all men to be loked of / to the discredite of the truth which we do mayntayne: You shall not thinke muche / if your pouertie be poynted vnto / in those things wherin you would cary so great countenaunce of store. For the argumentes them selues / they shall be seene what they be in their places / so shall also that be answered / which M. Doctor bringeth heere for y^e Confutation / being straightway after / & in sondry other places repeated in thys booke. I will touche that which is not repeated / & that is / that M. Doctor maketh it an indifferent thing / for men / & women to receyue y^e supper of the Lord clothed / or naked. Thys sauoureth strongly of the secte of y^e Adamites.

S. Paul whych commendeth the preseruation of godlynes and peace / vnto 1. Tim. 2. 2. the cyuill magistrate / doth also commende vnto hym the prouyding / that honesty be kept / and M. Doctor maketh it an indifferent thing / to come eyther naked / or clothed vnto the Lordes table: verely there is small honesty in thys. And if the heathē which knew not god / did accoūt it a filthy thing for a stage player to come vpon the stage without a sloppe / how much more filthy is it / for a Christian / to come naked vnto the Lordes table? and the contrary thereof / is necessarily col­lected of the scripture / notwithstanding that M. Doctor sayeth otherwise. They which haue heard M. Doctor read in the scholes can tell / that he being there a­mongst learned men / neuer vsed to reduce the contrary argumentes of the aduer­saryes / to the places of the fallacions / and yet that was the fittest place for hym to haue shewed hys knowledge in / because there they should haue bene best vnder­stode: now that he professeth hym selfe to be a doctor of the people / which because they haue not learned these things / can not vnderstande them / he dasheth out his Logicke. What may be probably gathered hereof / I leaue to euery mans consi­deration: thys is certen / that circumstances of place and persons / which he so of­ten vrgeth / are not well obserued of him / when Logike speaketh in the church / and is mute in the schooles: when things are handled more learnedly amongst the people / and more popularly amongst the learned. It is truely sayde / cakon esti to calon, en ti me kairoutiche. A good thing is euill / when it cometh out of season. But to obserue what Arte heere is shewed / I would gladly know what place of the fall actions / eyther an argument ab authoritate negatiue is / or of negatiues by comparison. Aristotle setting forth places / whereunto all fallacions may be cal­led / maketh no mention of these / and if these were fallacions / and were such as he imagineth them / they should be referred vnto the former place / ab eo quod est se­cundum quid, ad id quod est simpliciter, for these reasons / the scripture hath it not / therefore it ought not to be / or the minister was knowen by doctryne / therefore by doctryne only / and not by apparell: If I say they be fallacions / they be refer­red vnto that place / and whether they be or no / and also how corruptly / and other­wise then is meant they be gathered / it shall afterward appeare. In the meane season in a small matter / heere is a great fault / not only to inuent new places / but of one place to make three / and may as well make a thousande.

And to the ende the pithe and waight of M. Doctors argumentes may be the better seene / I will lykewise geue the reader a say of them / noting the places of the fallacions / whereunto they be referred. Which I do agaynst my will / and compelled / for that maister Doctor to discredite the truthe / would make hys rea­der beleeue / that those which thinke not as he doth in these matters / are not on­ly vnlearned / but contenurers of all good learning. In deede there is no greate learning in these final things / & they are of that sort / which although it be a great shame not to know / yet it is no great commendation to haue knowledge of them.

In the 40. page he reasoneth thus. The ministers must learne / therfore they must learne Catechismes: which is a fallaction of the consequent. For although he that must learne a Cathechisme / must learne: yet it followeth not / that whoso­euer must learne / must by and by learne a Cathechisme.

In the. 55. page he reasoneth / that for so much as the cyuill magistrate may appoynt some kinde of apparell / therfore he may appoynt any / and so the popishe apparell. Which is / ab eo quod est secundum quid, ad id quod est simpliciter: of which sort he hath dyuers others. As women may baptise / and preache / because such a one / and such a one dyd. And the ministers execute cyuill gouernment / be­cause Elias / and Samuell did.

In the. 69. page he sayth. Cyprian (speaking of the office of an archbyshop) which is a manifest petition of the principle. For it being that which should haue bene proued / M. Doctor taketh it for graunted. And in diuers places speaking of the archbyshop / he goeth about to deceiue his reader with the fallation of the aequiuocation, or diuers significatiō of the word. For whatsoeuer he findeth sayd of archbyshop & byshop in times past / he bringeth to establishe our archbyshops and bishops: when notwithstāding those in times past / were much different from oures / and are not of that kynde / as shall appeare afterwarde.

In the. 239. page he reasoneth / that for so muche as those which weare the apparell / do edifie / therefore they edify by reason of the apparell / which is to make that the cause / which is not / but only commeth wyth the cause.

In the. 240. page he reasoneth thus / that the surplice. &c. be notes / and notes of good ministers / therefore they be good notes of ministers / which is a fallacion of compositiō / when a man thinketh that whatsoeuer is sayd of a thing by it selfe / may be sayd of it when it is ioyned with an other.

In the. 149. page he reasoneth thus / those which authorised the booke of Common prayer / were studious of peace / & building the churche / therefore those which finde fault with it / are pullers downe of the church / and disturbers of the peace / which is a fallacion of the Accident, when a man thinketh that euery thing which is verified of the Subiect, may be likewise verefied of that which is annexed vnto it. The further confutation of which arguments I refer vnto their places.

There be diuers other which he hath / which are so farre from iust conclusi­ons / as they haue not so muche as any colour of likelyhode of argument / which I can not tell where to lodge / vnles I put them in the common Inne / which is that / which is called the ignorance of the Elench. as in the. 69. page / when he con­cludeth thus / that Cyprian speaketh not of the bishop of Rome / ergo he speaketh of an archbyshop.

And in the. 71. page. There must be superioures / ergo, one minister must be superiour vnto an other. There must be degrees / therfore there must be one archbyshop ouer a prouince.

And in the. 73. there was one ouer euery congregation / therefore there was one ouer all the ministers in the prouince. These / and a number like vnto these / M. Doctor hath scattered throughout his boke / which as Nero sayd of his ma­ster Senecas works / cleaue together like sand / & thus let it be sene / whose argu­ments are most iustly concluded / those of y^e admonition / or these of M. Doctors.

An answere to the exhortation to the eyuill Magistrates.

IT is more thē I thought could haue hapned vnto you / once to admit into your mynde / thys opinion of Anabaptisme of your brethren / which haue alwayes had it in as great detestatiō as your selfe / preached against it / as much as your selfe / hated of the folowers & fauourers of it / as much as your selfe. And it is yet more strange / that you haue not doubted / to geue out such slaunderous reports of them / but dare to present such accusations / to the holy and sacred seat of iustice / & thereby (so much as in you lyeth) to corrupt it / & to call for the sword vpon the in­nocent / (which is geuen for their mayntenance and safetie) that / as it is a bold­nes vntollerable / so could I hardly haue thought / that it could haue fallen into any / that had caryed but the countenaunce and name of a professor of the gospell / much les of a doctor of dyuinitie. Before you will ioyne with vs in this cause / you wil place vs / whether we wil or no / in the campe of the Anabaptistes / to the ende you myght thereby / bothe withdraw all from ayding vs / which are godly minded / as for y^e you fearing (as it semeth) the insufficiencie of your pen / myght haue the sword / to supply your want other wayes. And if we be found in theyr campe / or be such disturbers of the quiet estate of the church / defacers of such as be in authoritie / maintayners of licenciousnes and lewde lybertie (as you do seme to charge vs with) we refuse not to go vnder those punishmentes / that some of that wicked sect receiued / for iust recompence of their demerites. You say you will not accuse any / I know it is for want of no good wil / that you do not accuse them / of whose condemnation and extreame punishment / we myght be sure / if your hand were as strong as your hart. But you suspect the authors of the ad­monition / and their fautors. * Charitie is not suspitious. Let vs therefore see / 1. Cor. 13. 5. whether there be iust matter to beare out / and to vphold this suspition. You wil beare men in hand / that if we be not already full Anabaptistes / yet we are in the way thither / the footesteps whereby you trace vs / must be considered.

¶ The Replie vnto the Answere of the Preface.

IT may be sayde vnto you / that whych Aristotle sayde of a certaine Philoso­pher / that he knewe not his owne voice. For if that you had remembred / that which you do so often promis / that you will not answer words / but matter / y^e Printer should not haue gained so much / men should not haue bestowed so much money of a thing not of so great value / nor that (which is more) the world shuld [Page 21] not be burdened wyth vnprofitable writings. For how often tunninges out haue you / to drawe the authors of the Admonition into hatred / by inucighing bitterly agaynst their vnlearnednes / maliciousnesse? &c. (as it pleaseth you to terme it) so that if there were any excesse of speache in them / you haue payed it agayne with measure pressed downe / & running ouer. How often charge you them with pride / & arrogancie / men that confesse once or twyse of them selues / their want of skill / and which professe nothing of them selues / but only a bare and naked knowledge of the truth / which may be done with modesty / euen of them which haue no lear­ning. And yet those that know them / know that they are neyther voyde of the knowledge of the tongues / nor of the liberall Artes / albeit they do not make so many wordes of it as you. * Salomon sayth / that he that is despised / and hath Pro. 12. 9. but one seruaunt / is better / then he which magnifyeth and setteth out him selfe / and yet wanteth breade. Whereby he meaneth that the man / that hath but a little / and caryeth hys countenaunce accordingly / is much more to be estemed / then he which beareth a great port / and hath not to support it. These brethren haue not vndertaken the knowledge of Logike / Philosophie / and other schoole learning / whereof notwithstanding they are not destitute: you / in so often repro­ching them / with the ignoraunce of them / would make vs beleeue / that you are so notable a Logician & Philosopher / as if Logike & Philosophie had bene borne with you / & should dye with you: when as it may appeare / partly by that which hath bene spoken / and partly by those things that wil fall out hereafter / that you are better acquainted with the names of Logike and Philosophie / then with a­ny sounde or substantiall knowledge of them. But let that be the vniuersities iudgement / where you haue bene brought vp / and are best knowne. To returne to your vnprofitable excursions / how oftentimes in your boke / do you pull at the magistrates sworde / and what sworde you would haue I leaue to the considera­tion of all men / seing you are not satisfied with their imprisonment / whereup­pon also doth ensue the expence of that which they haue. What matter is in all these / that bringeth any helpe / to the decision of these causes / that are in question betwene vs? how many leaues haue you wasted / in confuting of the quotations / which (you say) are vaine / foolish / vnlearned / and to no purpose of that / for which they are alleaged? And if they be so / where learned you / to spend so much time / a­bout them? Dyd you neuer learne / that spoude, ta me spoudes axia, elegchein, tôn atopôn esti? to confute trifeling things seriously / is a poynt of those / which haue no iudgement / to know what is meete for the tyme and place / and other such cir­cumstances? If I should of the other side nowe go aboute to maintayne euery place / to be not vnfitly quoted / vnto that ende wherefore it is alleadged / and shew how vniust your reprehensions are / and how small cause you haue / to leade them oftentimes / so gloriously in triumph (as you do) which I assure you / I could do in the most places. (As / what could be more fitly alleaged / to induce to reade the booke / then that they should * try all things? what more fitly / to holde men from 1. Thes. 5. 21. Ia. 1. 19. 20. rashe condemning of things / then that they shuld be * slow to speake? what more fitly / to moue that they should not misselike of the goodnes of the cause for the simplicitie or base degree of them that defend it / then / that we * should not haue Ia. 2. 1. the fayth of our Lord Iesus Christ / in respect of persons? and what more vn­iustly done / then that you should whippe them / for the printers faulte / in put­ting one place for an other). If I say / I should thus go about / to make good euery place / how euill should I deserue / either of learning / or of the truth it selfe / in blotting of much paper / whereby no profit would come to the reader? And if the dayes of a man / were as many / as the dayes of an Oke / I would neither willingly trouble / nor be troubled / with such strife of wordes. Seeing therefore / God hath shut vs in so narow termes / me thinke / men should haue conscience of pestoring the world / with such vnprofitable treatises.

Therefore all these / and whatsoeuer else wandering words / I shall meete / with in this booke / I meane (by God his grace) as dead things / and nothing worth / to bury with silence / and will answere to those things / which touch the matters that lye in controuersie betwene vs. And as for the vnlearnednes / blind zeale / malice / intolerable pride / contempt of al good orders / and twentie such more things / wherwith M. Doctor chargeth vs / if our life & cōuersation doth not con­fute thē sufficiently / our words & profession of our selues / wil not do it. And ther­fore / we wil first stay our selues with y^• testimony of our owne consciences / & thē in the equity of y^e iudgemēt of al those / which shal indifferētly cōsider these things / y^• we are charged with. And as for y^e sworde / that is so hotly & hastely called for / we hope it be in their hāds / which wil vse it better / then they are by you directed.

To come therfore vnto the matter / out of the places of the. 20. of Mathew / and the 22. of Luke where our sauiour Christ / vpon occasion of the inordinate request of the sonnes of Zebede / putteth a difference / betwene the ciuill and eccle­siasticall function / he placeth the distinction of them in two poyntes / whereof the one is / in their office / the other is in their names and titles.

The distinction of the office he noteth / in these words / the kings of the Gen­tiles haue dominion ouer them / and the princes exercise authoritie ouer them / but it shal not be so with you. Wherupon the argument may be thus gathered. That / wherein the ciuill magistrate is seuered from the ecclesiasticall officer / doth not agree to one minister ouer an other. But the ciuill magistrate is seuered from the ecclesiasticall officer / by bearing dominion. Therfore bearing dominion doth not agree to one minister ouer an other.

Touching their names and titles / he putteth a differēce in these words. And they are called gracious Lordes / but it shall not be so with you. And so the argu­ment may be framed as before / that for as muche as they are seuered in titles / and that to the ciuill minister doth agree the title of gracious Lordes / therefore to the Ecclesiasticall minister the same doth not agree. For as it is fitte / that they whose offices cary an outward maiestie and pompe should haue names agreeable to their magnificence: so is it meete / that those that God hath remoued from that pompe and outwarde shew / shoulde likewise be remoued from such swelling and loftie titles / as doe not agree with the simplicitie of the ministerie whiche they exercise. And whereas it myght seeme somewhat vniuste: that he that hath the greater giftes / shoulde not be preferred to those which haue lesse / our sauioure Christ sheweth that the matter is farre otherwise. For by how much euery man doth excell his fellow in the giftes of the holy ghost / by so muche more / he oughte to employ him selfe to the benefite of others: so that in a maner he should become (as it were) their seruaunt to doe them good. Which although it be in part com­mon to the ciuill magistrate with the minister of the word / yet he doth neuer let downe him selfe so low / nor geueth his seruice either to the church or common wealth / but that he doth and ought in that seruice to retayne that dignitie and countenaunce / with the markes and notes thereof / which hys princely estate doth require.

In the end / he propoundeth him selfe for example / in whome he setteth before their eyes / a perfect paterne of y^e ministerie. For seeing he being Lord / tooke vpō him to be a seruaunt / & being Emperor and king of heauen & earth / was contēt to want all the glory & shew of the world (his ministerie so requiring) it shoulde be great shame for them which were his disciples / chosen out for the ministery / not to content them selues / but to aspire vnto such offices and dignities / as they dreamed of.

Agaynst thys is sayde / that the places do nothing else but condemne ambiti­ous desire and tyrannicall vsage of authoritie / and doth not barre the ministers of these thinges.

Then be like all those godly and learned men / which haue vsed these places * The byshop of Salsbury so alleageth this place in his de­fence of the A­pologie against maister Har­ding. pag. 653. to proue that the Pope which professeth him selfe to be an ecclesiasticall person / ought not to haue the ciuill sworde / nor to vsurpe vnto him selfe suche glorious pompe / haue abused them. For you teach him how he should answere / that there is nothing forbidden but ambition and tyrannie / and in deede this is the answere of all the Papists to that obiection.

But Musculus a learned man is of y^e iudgement. And M. Caluin (as lear­ned as he with diuers other) are of that iudgement that I haue alleaged. This is no great proofe of your side / nor reproofe of ours / let vs therefore see the rea­sons wherewith this exposition is warranted. Musculus reason is this / that if he should haue ment that the Apostles had bene equall and none greater then an other / then there should be equalitie of all / and none should haue authoritie ouer other. And so there shoulde be no degrees of the Prince and subiect in the com­mon wealth / of master and seruaunt in a familie / of people & minister in y^e church. But it is no good reason to say / there is / nor ought to be / any inequalitie amongst the apostles / therefore there is none / nor ought to be none at al: Or to say there is no mequalitie amongst the pastors / therefore there is no inequalitie betwene the pastors and the people. For as common wealthes / families / and churches / are preserued by inequalitie / and in that some are higher / and some are lower / some rule / and some obey: so are the same likewise preserued by equalitie of certayne a­mongst them selues. As for example / albeit the Consuls in Rome / wer aboue o­ther offices / and the people / yet were they equall betwene them selues. And al­though it be the preseruation of the family / that the master should be aboue the ser­naunt / and the father aboue the sonne: yet it tendeth also to the quiet of the house that the seruaunts amongst them selues / and the brethren amongst them selues / should be equall. And so we graunt / that for the preseruation of the church / it is necessary that there be some should beare rule / and other should be vnder their rule: but I deny / that thereof followeth / that one minister should beare rule ouer an other. Whereas M. Musculus sayth that Peter was found in many places chefe amongst the rest / if he meane as Eusebius, lib. 2. cap. 14. doth / which sayth / that he was tes aretes eneka tôn Ioipon apostolon proegoron for his vertues and gifts he had / one that spake before the rest / & in the name of the rest / (which he se­meth to do in that he doth not absolutely geue any chefetie vnto him but only in certayne places) I agree with him / and do not deny / but such chiefetie may be a­mongst the ministers / as shall appeare more at large hereafter.

This interpretation of M. Musculus (master D. sayth) muste needes be true / or else Christ should reiect Princes & Magistrates / emongst both Christi­ans & other. I haue shewed how it doth not follow that / because he forbiddeth y^• rule vnto the ministers / therfore he forbiddeth it simply and altogether: no more then the law which forbiddeth that any stranger should be king of the realme / for biddeth therefore that there shoulde be no king of the realme. VVhereas you say maister Musculus teacheth how he ought to rule which ruleth / & what he ought to be / I haue tolde you before / other thinke otherwise: and therefore you hauing sette downe hys iudgement before / needed not to haue repeated it here agayne. But the Greeke wordes (you say) catakyrieuousin kai catexousiazousin doe sig­nifie to rule wyth oppression / and why may not I saye that thys preposition ca­ta, doth not signifie heere a peruersnesse of rule / but an absolutenesse and a full power and iurisdiction as catamathein, catalambanein is not to learne / or to per­ceyue euilly and peruersly / but to learne exactly / and to perceiue throughly and perfectly? but what neede we to followe coniectures in so playne a matter? when as Saint Luke vseth the simple wordes without any composition of exousiazein Kai Kyrieuein? doe you not perceyue that the preposition wherein you put so great confidēce / deceiueth you / besides the manifest vntruth you commit in saying / that [Page 24] all three Euangelistes haue katexousiazousin & katakyrieuousin. Furthermore you say / that our sauioure Christ sayeth not / that no man shall be great amongst them / but he that desireth to be great amongst them. He had sayd so before when he had sayd it shall not be so amongst you / and therefore needed not to repeate it: and yet an other Euangelist sayeth not / he that desireth to be great / but let the Luk. 22. 26. greatest among you / be as the least. VVherby he doth not reprehend only the de­sire of being great / but will not haue them to be one aboue an other.

An answere to that which is contayned in the. 20. 21. and 22. page / vntill. Now if eyther godly Councels.

YOu geue occasion of suspition / that your end will be skarce good / which haue made so euill a beginning. For whereas you had gathered out of the Admo­nition / that nothing should be placed in the Church / but that God hath in Deut. 4. 2. Deut. 12. 32. hys word commaunded / as though the wordes were not playne enough / you wil geue them some light / by your exposition. And what is y^t? you answere that it is as much as though they would say / nothing is to be tollerated in the church of Christe / touching eyther doctryne / order / ceremonies / disciplyne / or gouernment / except it be expressed in the word of God. Is thys to interprete? is it all one to say: nothing must be placed in the church: and nothing must be tollerated in the church? he hath but small iudgemēt / that can not tel / that certaine things may be tollerated and borne with for a time / which if they were to be sette in and placed / could not be done without the great fault of them that shuld place them. Againe / are these of lyke waight / except it be commaunded in the worde of God: and ex­cept it be expressed in the word of God? Many things are both commaunded and forbidden / of which there is no expresse mention in the word / which are as neces­sarily to be followed / or auoided / as those / wherof expresse mētion is made. Ther­fore vnlesse your waightes be truer / if I coulde let it / you should waighe none of my wordes. Hereupon you conclude / that their arguments taken ab authoritate negatiue, proue nothing. When the question is of the authoritie of a man / in deede it neither holdeth affirmatiuely nor negatiuely. For as it is no good argument to say / it is not true because Aristotle or Plato sayde it not: so is it not to saye / it is true / because they sayde so. The reason whereof is / because the infirmitie of man can neither attaine to the perfection of any thing / wherby he might speake all thinges that are to be spoken of it / neyther yet bee free from erroure in those thinges / which he speaketh or geueth out / and therfore thys argument / neyther affirmatiuely / nor negatiuely / compelleth the hearer: But only induceth hym to some liking or misliking of that / for which it is brought / & is rather for an oratour to perswade the simpler sort: thē for a disputer to enforce him that is learned. But for so muche as the Lord God / determyning to set before our eyes a perfecte fourme of hys church / is both able to doe it / and hath done it / a man may reason [Page 26] bothe wayes necessarily. The Lorde hathe commaunded / it shoulde be in hy [...] churche: therefore it must. And of the other side / he hath not commaunded: there­fore it must not be. And it is not harde to shewe / that the Prophetes haue so rea­soned negatiuely. As when in the person of the Lord the Prophet sayth / * wher­of I haue not spoken / and which neuer entred into my heart: and as where he [...]7. Iere. 31. 32 30. Esa. 2. condemneth them / * because they haue not asked counsell at the mouthe of the Lorde. But you say / that in matters of faythe and necessary to saluation it hol­deth / which thinges you oppose afterwardes and set agaynst matters of ceremo­nies / orders / discyplyne and gouernment: as though matters of dysciplyne and kynde of gouernment were not matters necessary to saluation / and of faythe. The case which you put / whether the byshop of Rome be head of the church / is a matter / that concerneth the gouernment / and the kynde of gouernment of the church / and the same is a matter that toucheth fayth / and that standeth vpon our saluation. Excommunication / and other censures of the church / which are fore­runners vnto excommunication / are matters of dysciplyne / and the same are also of faythe and of saluation. The sacramentes of the Lorde hys supper / and of baptisme are ceremonies / and are matters of faythe and necessary to saluation. And therefore you which distinguishe betweene these / and saye / that the for­mer / that is matters of faythe and necessarye to saluation may not be tollerated in the church / vnlesse they be expresly contayned in the worde of God or many­festly gathered: But that these later which are / ceremonies / order / disciplyne / gouernment in the church / may not be receiued agaynst the word of God / and consequently receiued if there be no word agaynst them (although there be none for them) you I say distinguishing or dyuiding after thys sorte / do proue your selfe to be as euill a deuyder / as you shewed your selfe before an expounder / for thys is to breake in peeces / and not to deuide.

And it is no small iniurie which you doe vnto the word of God / to pinne it in so narow roume / as that it should be able to direct vs / but in the principall poyntes of our relygion: or as though the substance of religion / or some rude and vnfashioned matter of building of the church were vttered in them, & those things were left out / that should pertayne to the fourme and fashion of it: or as if there were in the scriptures onely to couer the churches nakednes / and not also chaines and bracelettes and rings / and other iewels / to adorne hir and set hir out / or that to conclude / there were sufficient to quench hir thirst / & kil hir honger / but not to minister vnto hir a more liberall / and (as it were) a more delicious and daintie di­et. These things you seeme to say / when you say / that matters necessary to salua­tion and of fayth are contayned in the scripture / especially when you appose these things / to ceremonies / order dysciplyne / and gouernement.

And if you meane by matters of fayth and necessary to saluation / those with­out which a man cannot be saued: then the doctrine that teacheth there is no free will / or prayer for the dead / is not within your compasse. For I doubt not / but dyuers of the fathers of the Greke church / which were great patrons of free wil (at lest as their wordes pretende) are saued holding the foundation of the fayth / which is Christ. The lyke might be sayd of a nomber of other / as necessary doc­trines / wherein men being nusled / haue notwithstanding bene saued. Therefore seeing that the poynt of the question lyeth chiefely in this distinction / it had bene good that you had spoken more certainely and properly of these things.

But to the ende it may appeare / that this speach of youres / doth something take vp & shrinke the armes of the scripture / which otherwise are so long & large: I saye that the word of God contayneth the direction of all things pertayning to the church / yea of what soeuer things can fall into any part of mans life. For so Salomon sayth / in the second chapter of the Prouerbes. My sonne / if thou [...]. Cha. 9. receiue my wordes / and hyde my preceptes. &c. Then thou shalt vnderstande [Page 27] iustice and iudgement / and equitie / and euery good way. S. Paul sayth that 1. Cor. 10. 31. whether we eate or drynke / or whatsoeuer we do / we must do it to the glory of God. But no man can gloryfy God in any thing but by obedience / and there is no obedience but in respect of the commaundement and word of God: therefore it followeth that the word of God directeth a man in all his actions. And that which S. Paul sayd of meates and drinkes that they are sanctifyed vnto vs by 1. Tim. 4. 5. the word of God / the same is to be vnderstanded of all thinges else whatsoeuer we haue the vse of. But the place of S. Paul is of all other most cleare / where speaking of those things which are called indifferent / in the ende he concludeth / that whatsoeuer is not of fayth / is sinne: but fayth is not but in respecte of the 14. Rom. 23. word of God / therfore whatsoeuer is not done by the word of God / is sinne. And if any will say that S. Paul meaneth there a full plerophorian and perswasion that that which he doth is well done / I graunt it. But from whence can that spring but from fayth / and how can we perswade and assure our selues / that we do well / but whereas we haue the word of God for our warrant? so that the A­postle by a metonimie Subiecti pro adiuncto, doth geue to vnderstād from whence the assured persuasion doth spring. Whereupon it falleth out / y^e forasmuch as in all our actions both publyke & priuate we ought to follow y^e direction of y^e word of God: in matters of the church and which concerne all / there may be nothing done but by the word of God. Not that we say / as you charge vs in these words (that no ceremonie. &c. may be in the church except the same be expressed in the word of God) but that in making orders and ceremonies of the church / it is not lawfull to doe what men list / but they are bound to follow the generall rules of the scripture / that are geuen to be the squire / whereby those should be squared out. Which rules I will here set downe / as those which I would haue as well al orders & ceremonies of the church framed by / as by the which I wil be content / that all those orders & ceremonies which are now in question / whether they be good & conuenient or no / should be tried & examined by. And they are those rules / which Paule gaue in such cases as are not particularly mētioned of in scripture.

• The first / that they offend not any / especially the Church of God.
  1. Cor. 10. 32. 1. Cor. 14. 40.
• The second / is (that which you cite also out of Paul) that all be done in or­der and comclynes.
• The thirde / that all be done to edifying.
  1. Cor. 14. 26. 14. Rom. 6. 7.
• The last / that they be done to the glory of God.

So that you see that those things which you recken vp / of the houre / & time / & day of prayer. &c. albeit they be not specified in the scripture / yet they are not left to any / to order at their pleasure / or so that they be not agaynst the worde of God: but euen by and according to the word of God they must be established: and those alone to be taken / which do agree best and nearest with these rules before recited. And so it is brought to passe (which you thinke a great absurdity) that al things in the church should be appoynted according to the word of God. Wherby it likewise appeareth / that we deny not but certayne things are left to the order of the church / because they are of the nature of those which are varyed by times / places / persons / & other circumstances / & so could not at once be set down & esta­blished for euer: & yet so left to the order of the church / as y^t it do nothing agaynst the rules aforsayde. But how doth this follow / y^t certaine things are left to y^e or­der of the church / therfore to make a new ministerie by making an Archbishop / to alter y^e ministerie y^e is appointed / by making a bishop or pastor without a church or flock / to make a deacon without appointing him his church wherof he is a dea­con / & wher he might exercise his charge of prouiding for y^e pore / to abrogate cleane both name & office of y^e elder with other more: how I say doth it follow y^e because the church hath power to order certaine things / therfore it hath power to do so of these / which God hath ordayned and established: of the which there is no tyme / [Page 28] nor place / nor person / nor any other circumstance / which can cause any alteration or chaunge? Which thing shall better appeare both in the discourse of the whole booke / and especially there / where you go about to shew certayne reasons / why there should be other gouernmēt now / then was in y^e tyme of the apostles. But whyle you goe about to seme to say much / & rake vp a great nomber of thinges / you haue made very euill mestin (and you haue put / in one / thinges which are not paires nor matches. Because I will not draw the reader willingly into more questions then are already put vppe / I will not stand to dispute / whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday (being the day of the resurrection of our sauiour Christ / and so the day wherein the worlde was renued as the Iewes sabboth was the day wherein the world was finished / and being in all the chur­ches in the Apostles times as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God) ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say / that there was no great iudgement to make it as arbytrarie and chaungeable / as the houre and the place of prayer. But where was your iudgement / when you wrote / that the scripture hath appoynted no discipline nor correction for suche / as shall con­temne the common prayers and hearing the word of God? VVhat churche disci­pline would you haue other then admonions / reprehensions / and if these will not profitte excommunication? and are they not appoynted of our sauioure Christe. 18. Math. 15. 16. 17. 22. Chap. 20. There are also ciuill punishments / and punishmentes of the body likewise / ap­poynted by the word of God in diuers places / in Exodus. He that sacrificeth to other gods / and not to the Lorde alone / shall dye the death. And in Deutcrono­mie. Thou shalt burne out the euill out of the middest of thee / that the rest may 19. Chap. 19. heare & learne and not dare do the like. The execution of thys law appeareth in y^e Chro. by king Aza / who made a law / that all those that did not seke y^e Lord shuld 2. Chr. 15. 13. be kilde. And thus you see y^e ciuill punishment of contēners of y^e word & prayers.

There are other for such as neglect the worde / which are according to the quantitie of the fault: so that whether you meane ciuil or ecclesiasticall correction / the scripture hath defined of them both. I omit that there be examples of pulpits in Nehemias which the common translation calleth Ezra / of chaires in S. 8. Chap. 4. 23. Chap. 2. Mathew / where / by the chaire of Moses our sauioure Christ meaning the doc­trine of Moses / doth also declare the manner which they vsed in teaching: Of sit­ting at the communion (which the Euangelist noteth to haue bene done of our Math. 26. 20. Sauioure Christ with his disciples) which examples are not to be lightly chaun­ged / and vppon many occasions.

But this I can not omitte / that you make it an indifferent thing to preache the word of God in churches or in houses / that is to say / priuately or publikely. For what better interpretation can I haue / then of your owne wordes / which say by and by after / of Baptisme / that it is at the order of the church / to make it priuate or publike. For if it be in the power of y^e church / to order that Baptisme may be ministred at y^e house of euery priuate person / it is also in her power to or­dayne that the worde / be preached also priuately. And then where is that which Salomon sayth that wysdom cryeth openly & in the streates / and at the corners 8. Prou. 2. 3. of the stretes where many meete: and where be the examples of the olde church / which had besydes the temple at Ierusalem / erected vppe synagogues in euery towne to heare the worde of God / and mynister the cyrcumcysion? what is be­come of the commaundement of our sauioure Christ / whych * wylled his discy­ples 10. Math. 27. that they should preache openly / and vpon the house toppes / that which they heard in the eare of hym / and secreately? and howe doe we obserue the example of our sauyour Christ / who to delyuer hys doctryne from all suspytion of tumultes 18. Ioh. 20. and other dysorders / sayd that he preached openly in the temple and in the syna­gogues / albeit the same were very daungerous vnto hym? & the example of the 3. Act. 1. 4. Act. 1. * Apostles / that dyd the same. For as for y^e tyme of persecution / when the church [Page 29] dare not / nor is not meete / that it should shewe it selfe to the ennemy / no not then is the word of God nor the sacraments priuately preached or ministred / neyther yet ought to be.

For althoughe they be done in the house of priuate man / yet because they are & ought to be ministred in the presence of the congregation / there is neyther priuate preaching / nor priuate baptisme. For like as where so euer the Queenes maiestie lyeth / there is the Courte / althoughe it be in a Gentleman hys house / so wheresoeuer the churche meeteth / that place is not to be holden priuate / as tou­ching the prayers / preachings / and sacraments / that shalbe there ministred. So that I denye vnto you that the churche hathe power to ordaine at her pleasure / whether preaching or ministring of sacramentes / should be priuate or publicke / when they ought not to be / but where the church is / and the church ought not to assemble (if it be not letted by persecution) but in open places. And when it is driuen from them / those places where it gathereth it selfe togither / although they be otherwise priuate / yet are they for the time that the churches doe there assem­ble / and for respect of the worde and sacraments / that are there ministred in the presence of the church / publike places. And so you see those (whome you charge slaunderously wyth conuenticles) are faine to glase vp the windowes that you open to secreate and priuate conuenticles.

The Answere from. Nowe if either godly councels / vnto I trust M. Caluins iudgement will weigh.

HEere are brought in Iustin Martyr / Ireneus / Tertullian / Cyprian / and councels / as dumme persons in the stage only to make a shewe / and so they go out of the stage without saying any thing. And if they had had any thing to say in this cause for these matters in controuersye / there is no doubt / but M. Doctor would haue made them speake. For when he placeth y^e greatest strength of hys cause in antiquitie / he would not haue passed by Iustin / Ireneus / Ter­tullian / Cyprian / being so auncient / and taken Augustin / whych was a great time after them. And if the godly councels coulde haue helped heere / it is small wisedome to take Augustine / and leaue them. For I thinke he might haue lear­ned that amongst the authorities of mē / the credite of many is better then of one: and that thys is a generall rule / that as the iudgement of some notable personage is loked vnto in a matter of debate / more then theirs of the common sorte / so the iudgement of a councell / where many learned men be gathered together / caryeth more likelyhode of truthe wyth it / then the iudgement of one man / although it be but a prouinciall councell / much more then / if it be a generall / and therfore you do your cause great iniurie / if you could alledge them / and do not. Thys is once to be obserued of the reader throughout your whole boke / that you haue well pro­uided that you would not be taken in the trip for misalledging the scriptures / for that onles it be in one or two poynts / we heare continually (instead of Esay and Ieremy / S. Paule / and S. Peter / and the rest of the Prophets and Apostles) S. Augustin and S. Ambrose / kai to en te phake myron, Dionysius Areopagi­ta / And as we say in our tongue / Nettles amōg Roses. Clement. &c. And therfore I can not tell wyth what face we can call the pa­pistes from their antiquitie / councels / and fathers / to the triall of the scriptures / who in the controuersies whych rise amongst our selues / flie so farre from them / that it wanteth not much / that they are not banished of your part / from the deci­ding of all these controuersies.

And if thys be a sufficient proofe of things to say / suche a Doctor sayde so / suche a councell decreed so / there is almost nothing so true but I can impugne / nothing so false / but I can make true. And well assured I am / that by their meanes / the principall groundes of our faith may be shaken.

And therfore / because you haue no proofe in the worde of God / we comfort our selues / assured / that for so muche as the foundations of the Archbyshop and Lordship of Bishops and of other things / which are in question / be not in hea­uen / that they wil fall and come to the ground / from whence they were taken.

Nowe it is knowne they are from beneath and of the earthe / and that they are of men and not of God: The answearer goeth about to proue / that they came yet out of good earthe / and from good men / whych if he had obtained / yet he may well know / that it is no good argument to proue that they are good. For as the best earth bringeth forth weedes / so do the best men / bring forth lies and errors. But let vs heare what is brought / that if thys visarde and shewe of truthe be taken away / all men may perceiue / howe good occasion we haue to complaine / and howe iust cause there is of reformation. In the first place of S. Augustine there is nothing against any thing whych we hold / for thys / that the church may haue thyngs not expressed in the scripture / is not againste / that it oughte to haue nothing / but that may be warranted by the scripture. For they may be according to the scripture / and by the scripture / whych are not by plaine termes expressed in the scripture. But against you it maketh muche / & ouerturneth all your buil­ding in this boke. For if in those things whych are not expressed in y^e scripture / that is to be obserued of the Church / whych is the custome of the people of God / and decree of oure forefathers: then howe can these things be varyed according to time / place / & persons / (whych you say should be) when as y^t is to be retained / which y^e people of God hath vsed / & the decrees of the forefathers haue ordained. And thē also how can we do safelier / then to folow the apostles customes and the churches in their time / which we are sure are our for fathers / & the people of god.

Besides that / how can we retaine the customes and constitutions of the pa­pists in such things / which were neither the people of God / nor our forefathers.

I wil not enter now / to discus / whether it were wel done to fast in al places according to the custome of the place. You oppose Amb. & Aug. I could oppose Tertull. de co­ron. milit. Ignatius ad Ph. epist. 5. Ignatius and Tertullian / wherof the one saith it is (nefas) a detestable thing to fast vpon the Lordes day / the other / y^e it is to kil the Lord / & this is the inconue­nience that cometh of such vnlearned kinde of reasoning / S. Ambrose sayth so / & therfore it is true. And although Amb. and Aug. being straungers and priuate men at Rome wold haue so done / yet it foloweth not / y^t if they had ben citizens & ministers there y^• they wold haue don it / & if they had don so to / yet it foloweth not but they would haue spoken against y^e appoyntment of dayes / & nomothesian, of 17. chap. of the 5. booke. Aug. de temp. 62. serm. Amb. 10. lib. ep. fasting / wherof Eusebius saith / that Montanus was the first author. I speake of that which they ought to haue done / for otherwise I know they both thought corruptly of fasting: whē as the one sayth / it was remedy or reward to fast other dayes / but in Lent / not to fast / was sinne: and the other asketh / what saluation we can obtaine / if we blot not our sinnes by fasting / seing y^t the scripture sayth / y^e fasting & almes doth deliuer from sin / & therfore calleth them new teachers / that shut out the merite of fasting. Which I therfore recite / because you would seme by Aug. & Ambrose iudgements / to alow of the weekely and commanded fasts. What you meane to cite this place ad Ianuarium. 118. I can not tell / you charge the authors of the admonition to be conspired w^t the papistes / I will not charge you so / but wil thinke better of you / vntil the contrary do more appeare. But I appeale to the iudgement of all men / if this be not to bring in popery again / to al­low of s. Aug. saying / wherin he sayth that the celebrating of the day of the passi­on. &c. is either of some generall councel / or of the Apostles commaūded & decre­ed / wherby a gate is opē vnto the papists to bring in / vnder the coloure of tradi­tions / all their beggery whatsoeuer. For you plainly confirme / that there is some thing necessary to be obserued / which is not contained any wayes in y^e scripture. For to keepe those holy dayes / is not contained in the scripture / neither can be [Page 31] concluded of any part therof / and yet they are necessary to be kept / if they be com­maunded of the Apostles. Therefore in your opinion / some thing is necessary to be kept / which is not contained in the scriptures / nor can not be concluded of them. And if you say / that S. Aug. leaueth it in dout / whether it were the Apo­stles tradition & statute / or a generall councels / then you bring vs yet to a worse point / that we can not be assured of y^e which is necessary for vs to knowe / that is whether the Apostles did ordaine that these dayes should be kept as holy dayes / or the coūcels. And that it is S. Augustins meaning / to father such like things Tom. 7. de baptis. contra Do­nat. lib. 5. cap. 23. of the Apostles / it maye appeare by that whych he wryteth / saying. There are many things whych the whole churche holdeth / and therfore are well beleued to be commaunded of the Apostles / although they be not founde wrytten. If thys iudgement of s. Augustine be a good iudgement and a sounde / then there be some things commaunded of God / which are not in the scriptures / & therfore there is no sufficient doctrine contained in the scriptures / wherby we may be saued. For al the commaundements of God & of the apostles / are nedeful for our saluation.

And marke I pray you whether your affections cary you: before you sayd / that the Lords day which was vsed for the day of rest in the Apostles time / may be chaūged / as the place / and houre of prayer: but the day of the passion & resur­rection. &c. you either thrust vpon vs as the decree of the apostles / or at least put vpon vs a necessity of keping of them / least haply in breaking of them / we might breake the Apostles decree / for you make it to lie betweene the councels and the apostles / which of them decreed this. And do you not perceiue / how you stil rea­son against your self? for if the church haue had so great regard to y^t which the a­postles did in their times / that they kept those things which are not wryttē / and therfore are doutfull whether euer they vsed them or no / how much more should we hold our selues to these things / whych are wrytten / that they did / and of the whych we are assured? As touching the obseruation of these holy dayes / I will refer the reader vnto an other place / where occasion is geuen againe to speake of them. As for that rule y^• he geueth when he sayth whatsoeuer is not. &c. and for the last of the three rules / I receiue them with hys owne interpretation / whych he hath afterward in. 119. epist. ad Ianuarium, which is / that it be also profitable.

And as for those three rules / whych you saye / are worthye to be noted / I can see nothing that they helpe your cause one whit / for I knowe no man that euer denyed / but that the churche may in suche things as are not specified / and precisely determined / make orders so they be grounded of those generall rules whych I haue before alledged out of S. Paule.

And as for the second of the three rules / I can not at any hand allow it. For when all christianitie was ouer runne wyth Poperie / thyngs were vniuersally obserued / whych to kepe / were mere wickednes / and thys strengtheneth the pa­pistes vniuersalitie.

Concerning your glose (if it be not repugnant to the scripture) besides that it is not enough / because it must be grounded by the scripture / and that it is wic­ked to geue such authority to any decree of men / that a man should not enquire of it / or reason of it / I haue shewed that he ment nothing les. For affirming that suche thyngs are the Apostles commaundements / hys meaning was / that they should be wythout all exception receiued / and absolutely. How much better is it / that we take heede to the words of the Apostle / then either to S. Augustins or yours / whych sayth / that if he / or an angel from heauen / should preach any other Gal. 1. 8. gospell / then that whych he had preached / that they should hold hym accursed: he sayth not any contrary or repugnant doctrine / but any other gospell.

But tel me / why passed you by y^t in Augustin which he * wryteth to Iu­nuarie Epist. 119. that those thyngs whych are not contained in the scripture / nor decreed of coūcelles / nor confirmed by generall customes / but are varied by the manners [Page 32] of regions and of men / vpon occasion offered / ought to be cutte of / although they seeme not to be against faith / because they pres wyth seruile burdens the religi­on / whych Christ would haue free. Thys sentence belike was to hotte for you / you coulde not cary it. The rest whose names you recite (whych you saye you leaue of for breuitie sake) I leaue to the iudgement of the Reader to consider / wherfore they be left out / seeing that Augustin in whom you put so great trust / answereth so little to your expectation. Thys is certaine / that breuitie (whych you pretend) was in small commendation with you / whych make so often repe­titions / stuffe in diuers sentences of Doctors and wryters / to proue things that no man denyeth / translate whole leaues to so small purpose / vpon so light occa­sions / make so often digressions / sometimes against the vnlernednes / sometimes against the malice / sometimes against the intemperancie of speach of the authors of the admonition / and euery hand while pulling out the sworde vpon them / and throughout the whole boke / sporting your selfe wyth the quotations in the mar­gent / so that if all these where taken out of your boke / as winde out of a bladder / we should haue had it in a narow roume / whych is thus swelled into such a vo­lume / and in stead of a boke of .ij. s. we should haue had a pamfiet of two pence.

And whereas you say / that you haue not alleaged these learned fathers for the authors of the libell / but for the wise / discrete / humble / and learned / to them also I leaue it to consider / vpon that / whych is alledged by me. First / howe lyke a diuine it is / to seeke for rules in the Doctors / to measure the making of cere­monies by / whych you mighte haue had in the scriptures: there / at the riuers / heere / at the fountaine / vncerten there / whych heere are certen / there / in parte false / which are heere altogither true / then to howe little purpose they serue you / and last of all howe they make against you.

An answer to the ende of the. 29. page / beginning at the. 25. at. But I trust M. Caluins iudgement.

VVHy should you trust that M. Caluins iudgement wil weigh wyth them / if they be Anabaptists (as you accuse them) if they be Donatists / if Ca­tharists / if conspired wyth the Papistes / howe can you thinke that they will so easely rest in M. Caluins iudgement / whych hated and confuted all A­nabaptisme / Donatisme / Catharisme and Papisme? But it is true whych the prouerbe sayth / memorem. &c. he that will speake an vntruthe had neede haue a good memorye: and thys is the force of the truthe / in the conscience of man / that although he suppres it / and pretend the contrary / yet at vnwares it stealeth out. For what greater testimonye coulde you haue geuen of them / that they hate all those heresies which you lay to their charge / then to say / that you trust M. Cal­uins iudgement / wil weigh wyth them? Now in dede (that you be not deceiued) we receiue M. Caluin / and weigh of him / as of the notablest instrumēt that the Lord hath stirred vp / for the purging of his churches / and of the restoring of the plaine and sincere interpretation of the scriptures / whych hath bene since the A­postles times. And yet we do not so read his works / that we beleeue any thyng to be true / because he sayeth it / but so farre as we can esteme / that that whych he sayth / dothe agree wyth the canonicall scriptures. But what gather you out of M. Caluin?

First / that all necessary thyngs to saluation / are contained in the scripture: who denyeth it?

In the second collection / where you would geue to vnderstande / that cere­monies and externall discipline / are not prescribed particularly by the worde of God / and therfore left to the order of the church: you must vnderstande / that all externall discipline / is not left to the order of the churche / being particularly pre­scribed [Page 33] in the scriptures: no more then all ceremonies are left to the order of the church / as the sacraments of baptisme / and the supper of the Lord: wheras / vp­on the indefinite speaking of M. Caluin / saying ceremonies and externall disci­pline, wythout adding / all or some / you goe about subtelly to make men beleeue / that M. Caluin had placed the whole external discipline / in the power and arbi­trement of the churche. For if all externall discipline were arbitrarie / and in the choise of the church / Excommunication also (whych is a part of it) might be cast away / which I thinke you will not say. But if that M. Caluin were aliue to heare hys sentences racked and wrythen / to establishe those thyngs / whych he stroue so mightely to ouerthrow / and to ouerthrow those things that he laboured so sore to establishe / what might he say? and the iniurie which is done to him / is nothing les because he is deade.

Concerning all the rest of your collections / I haue not lightly knowne a man / which taketh so much paine with so small gaine / and which soweth his sede in the sea / wherof there wil neuer rise encrease. For I know none that euer de­nied those things / vnles peraduenture you would make the reader beleeue / that al those be contentions / which moue any controuersy of things which they iudge to be amis / and thē it is answered before. And now I answer further / that they that moue to reformation of things / are no more to be blamed as authors of con­tention / then the Phisition / which geueth a purgation / is to be blamed / for the rumbling and stirre in the belly / and other disquietnes of the body: which should not haue bene / if the euil humors and naughty disposition of it / had not caused or procured thys purgation.

Wheras you conclude / that these contentions woulde be sone ended / if M. Caluins wordes were noted / heere we will ioyne with you / and will not refuse the iudgement of M. Caluin / in any matter that we haue in controuersy w^t you. Which I speake not therfore because I would call the decision of controuersies to men / and their words (which pertaine only to God and to his worde) but be­cause I know hys iudgement in these things to be cleane against you / and espe­cially for that you would beare men in hand / that M. Caluin is on your side / and against vs. And as for Peter Martyr / and Bucer / and Musculus / and Bul­linger / Gualter / and Hemingius / and the rest of the late wryters / by citing of whom you wold geue to vnderstand / that they are against vs in these matters / there is set downe in the latter end of this boke / their seuerall iudgements / of the most of these things whych are in controuersy: whereby it may appeare / that if they haue spoken one word against vs / they haue spoken two for vs. And wher­as they haue wrytten (as it is sayde and alleaged in their priuate letters to their freendes) againste some of these causes / it may appeare / that they haue in their workes published to the whole world / that they confirme the same causes. So y^• if they wrote any such thyngs / they shall be founde not so much to haue dissented from vs / as from them selues: and therefore we appeale from them selues / vnto them selues: and from their priuate notes and letters / to their publike wrytings / as more autenticall. You labor still in the fire / that is vnprofitably / to bring M. Bucer hys Epistle / to proue / that the church may order things / wherof there is no particular and expressed commaundement / for there is none denieth it / neither is thys saying / that all things are to be done in the churche / according to the rule of the word of God / any thing repugnant vnto this / that the church may ordaine certaine thyngs / according to the word of God.

But if this epistle and others of M. Bucers with his notes vpon y^e boke of Common prayer / which are so often cited / and certaine Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were neuer printed (as I can not vnderstand they were) then besides that you do vs iniurie / whych go about to preiudice our cause by the testimonies of them / which we can neither heare / nor see / being kept close in your study: you [Page 34] also do your cause much more iniurie / whilest you betray the pouerty and naked­nes of it / being faine to ransake & rifie vp euery darke corner / to finde some thing to couer it with. Therefore it were good / before you toke any benefite of them / to let thē come forth / and speake their owne testimonies in their owne language and ful out. For now you geue men occasion to thinke / that there are some other things in their Epistles / whych you would be lothe the world should know / for feare of fall of that / which you would gladly keepe.

There is no man that fayth / that it ought to be permitted to euery person in the church where he is minister / to haue such order or discipline / or to vse such seruice / as he listeth / no mā seeketh for it. But to haue the order which God hath left in those things which the word precisely appoynteth / and in other thyngs to vse that / whych shall be according to the rules of S. Paule before recited / agre­ed by the church / and constrined by the Prince.

And whereas you haue euer hitherto geuen the ordering of these thyngs to the churche / howe come you nowe to ascribe it to the Bishops? you meane I am sure the Bishops / as we call Bishops heere in England / whereby you fall into the opinion of the papists vnwares / which when they haue spoken many things of the churche magnifically / at the last they bring it nowe to the Doctors of the church / nowe to byshops.

As forme / although I doute not but there be many good men of the By­shoppes / and very learned also / and therfore very meete to be admitted into that consultation / wherin it shalbe cōsidered / what things are good in the church: yet in respect of that office and calling of a bishop / which they now exercise / I thinke that euery godly learned minister & pastor of the churche / hath more interest and right in respect of his office / to be at that consultation / then any bishop or arch­bishop in the realme / for as muche as he hath an ordinarie calling of God & func­tion appoynted in the scriptures which he exerciseth / and the other hath not.

But how thys authoritie pertaining to the whole church of making of such orders / may and ought to be called to a certaine number / that confusion may be auoyded / and wyth the consent also of the churches to auoyde tyrannie / it shall appeare in a more proper place / where we shall haue occasion to speake of the el­dership or gouernment in euery churche / and of the communion and societie or participation and entercommuning of the churches togither / by councels and as­semblies prouinciall or nationall.

Answere till the Admonition / from the beginning of the 30. page.

VNto the places of Deuteronomic / whych proue that nothyng oughte to be done in the churche / but that whych God commaundeth / and that nothyng should be added nor diminished. First you answere / that that was a precept geuen to the Iewes for that time / whych had all things euen the least prescribed vnto them. I see it is true whych is sayd / that one absurditie graūted / a hundred follow. For to make good / that things ought to be done besides the scripture and worde of God / you are driuen to runne into parte of the error of the Manichees / whych say / that the olde Testament pertaineth not vnto vs / nor bindeth not vs. For what is it else / then to say that these two places serued for the Iewes time / and vnder the lawe? For surely / if these two places agree not vnto vs in time of the gospell / I knowe none in all the olde Testament / whych doe agree / and I praye you what is heere sayde / whych S. Iohn in the * Apocalipse saythe not / where he shutteth vp the newe Testament in thys sorte. I protest vnto euery Apoca. 22. 18. mā whych heareth the prophecie of thys boke / that whosoeuer addeth any thing to it / the Lorde shall adde vnto him the plagues whych are wrytten in it: and [Page 35] whosoeuer taketh away any thing from it / the Lord shall take away his portion out of the boke of life / and out of the things that are wrytten in it? which admo­nition if you say pertaineth to that boke of the Apocalipse only / yet you must re­member / that the same may be as truely sayd of any other boke of the scripture.

Then you are driuen to saye / that the Iewes vnder the lawe / had a more certaine direction / and consequently a readyer waye / then we haue in the time of the gospell / of the whych time the Prophet sayeth / that then a man shoulde not Ier. 31. 34. teache his neighbor / they shalbe so taught of God: as if he should say / that they that liue vnder the gospel / should be all in comparison of that whych were vnder the lawe Doctors. And Esay sayth / that in the dayes of the gospell / the people shall not stande in the outward courtes but he will bring them into the sanctua­rie Esay. 56. 5. that is to say / that they shoulde be all / for their knowledge as learned as the Leuites and Priestes / whych only had entraunce into it.

Now if the Iewes had precepts of euery the least action / whych told them precisely how they should walke: how is not their case in that poynt better then oures / whych because we haue in many things but generall rules / are to seeke oftentimes / what is the will of God whych we should follow? But let vs exa­mine their lawes / and compare them with oures in the matters pertaining to the church: for whereas y^e question is of the gouernment of the church it is very im­pertinent / that you speake of the iudicialies / as though you had not yet learned / to distinguishe betweene the Church and common wealth.

To the ordering and gouerning of the church / they had only the moral and ceremoniall law: we haue the same morall that they had: what speciall direction therfore they enioy by the benefite of that / we haue. We haue no ceremonies but two / the ceremonies or sacraments of Baptisme and of the Lords supper / & we haue as certaine a direction to celebrate them / as they had / to celebrate their ce­remonies / and fewer and les difficulties can rise of oures / then of theirs: and we haue more plaine and expres doctrine to decide our cōtrouersies then they had for theirs. What houre had they for their ordinarie and daily sacrifices: was it not left to the order of the church? what places were apointed in their seuerall dwel­lings to heare the woorde of God preached continually / when they came not to Ierusalem? the word was commaunded to be preached / but no mention made / what manner of place they should haue: where was pulpittes commaunded / or chaires? and yet they had both. Where any forme of buriall in the law? and yet it is a thing pertaining to the church / that the deade be after a comely sorte buried. Where / any order or forme of mariage? and yet it is knowne they had. It was (whych is more) in the discretion of that churche / vppon occasion of dearthe / or warre / plagues / or any other common calamitie / to proclaime a faste.

I wil not be long / where as you say / that they had nothing but was deter­mined by the law: and we haue many things vndetermined and left to the order of the churche / I will offer for one that you shall bring / that we haue left to the order of the church / to shew you that they had twentie whych were vndecided of by the expres word of God. For as their ceremonies and sacraments are multi­plied aboue oures / so grewe the nomber of those cases whych were not determi­ned by any expres worde / and therefore▪ I will conclude / that for so muche as we haue the same lawes to directe vs in the seruice of God / whych they had / beside that / a noble addition of the newe Testament to make things more manifest / and to bring greater light vnto the olde Testament / we haue also precise direction of our religion as they had / and therfore those places of Deuter. stand in as greate force nowe touching the gouernment of the church / as they did then.

And as for the iudiciall lawe / for as muche as there are some of them made in regarde of the region where they were geuen / and of the people to whom they were giuen / the Prince and Magistrate keping the substance & equitie of them [Page 36] (as it were the marrow) may chaunge the circumstances of them / as the times / and places / and manners of the people shall require. But to say that any magi­strate can saue the life of blasphemers / contemptuous and stubborne Idolaters / murderers / adulterers / incestuous persons / and suche like / whych God by hys iudiciall lawe hath commaunded to be put to death / I doe vtterly denye / and am ready to proue / if that pertained to thys question. And therfore althoughe the iu­diciall lawes are permitted to the discretion of the prince and magistrate / yet not so generally as you seeme to affirme / and as I haue oftentimes sayde / that not only it must not be done against the word / but according to the worde and by it.

After you define what is it to take from / & put to the word of God / wher­in not to speake of your wonderfull dexteritie in defining / whych can define two things / and those contrary (putting to and taking fro) with one differēce (which zeno him selfe could neuer do) you leaue out that whych Moses especially meant to comprehend / whych is / not to do more / nor to do les / thē he hath cōmaunded. And as for your deuision / it hath as euil succes here / as in other places / for when it is a great fault in deuiding / to haue eyther too muche or too little / you faulte in bothe / for whereas you say / they adde / whych teache or decree. &c. besides that you leaue out whych Moses ment / you forget also that whych your selfe hadde sayd / which had placed adding to / not only in teaching and decreeing / but in thin­king or beleeuing. And wheras you make foure partes of your deuision / y^e three last are found to be all vnder the first member / whych is to make things of fayth and ceremonies / contrary to the worde / and so your deuision is not only faultye / but no diuision at all. The whych thing I could haue easely forgeuen you / and passed by as a thing not very commendable to trauaile to shewe the pouertye of those things / whych doe sufficiently of them selues (as it were) proclaime their owne shame: but that it greeued me to see a boke lengthened wyth first / second / thirde / last / as thoughe euery one of them contained some notable newe matter / whych needed an Oyes before it / to stirre vp the attention of the reader / when there is nothing but a many of words wythout matter / as it were a sort of faire emptie Apothecaries boxes / wythout any stuffe in them. And for that you are so hard wyth other men for their Logike / I will desire the reader to pardone me / if I pursue these things more narowlyer then some peraduenture will lyke of / or I my selfe delight in. And so for any definition or diuision that I cā perceiue / it standeth fast / that nothing is to be done in the church of God / but by hys com­maundement and worde directing the same. It is true in deede / if they be not a­gainst the word of God / and be profitable for the church / they are to be receiued / as those thyngs / whych God by the church dothe commaunde / and as grounded of the word of God: but there is the question / and therefore you taking this as a thyng graunted alwayes / do alwayes fal into that whych you charge other with of the fallation of petitio principii.

To that in the. 34. and. 35. page.

VVHere in effect doe they say / that the church of Englande is boide of prea­ching and ministring of the sacraments? is it all one to say / that the word in the church of England is not purely preached / and the sacraments sin­cerely / and discipline seuerely administred / wyth this / that the churche of Eng­land is voyde of all these? Againe / where do they reason thus / that the worde of God is not truely preached / because the ministers are not rightly proued & elected when as they haue not one worde of true preaching? is it all one to say it is not purely preached / & to say it is not truely preached? S. Paul is glad that the gos­pel Phil. 1. 16. 18. be preached / although it be not purely / but he wold neuer haue bene glad / y^• it shuld haue ben preached falsly or not truly. Again / he inueyeth not against y^e false [Page 37] Apostles in the church of Corinth / because they preached the word vntruely / but because they vsing paynted wordes and affected eloquence / and making a great shew of learning and tounges / dyd not preache the Gospell sincerely. So that you see that it is one thing not to preache truely / and an other not to preache purely: and you see their reason is not so euill: for the want of a good calling / may geue occasion to say / that the word of God is not sincerely taught / because there is not a lawful and ordynary calling. For although for the substance of doctryne / and the manner of handling of it / they that S. Paul speaketh of to the Phillip. dyd no fault / yet S. Paul sayth that they dyd not preach purely / because they dyd it of contention or of eniue / which was no fault in the doctryne / but in hym that taught. Therefore let men iudge how iust your waights are / that expounde not purely / not truely: and whether thys be to confute other mens arguments / rather then to skirmishe wyth your owne shadowes.

I know no papistes reason thus / that because we haue no ministers / therfore no word / no sacraments / no disciplyne / no church. For they deny we haue the word or sacramēts / because we hold not theyr word & sacrifice / but if there be that so reason / yet these men that you charge / haue neyther any such antecedent or such a consequent: for they neuer sayde that there is no ministerie in Englande / nor yet do euer conclude / that there is no worde / no sacraments / no dysciplyne / nor church. For in saying that the face of the church doth not so much appeare (for so the whole proces of their booke doth declare that they meane / when they say that we haue not scarse the face of the church) they graunt / that we haue the church of God: but that for want of those ornaments / which it shuld haue / and through certayne the deformed ragges of poperie which it should not haue / the churche doth not appeare in her natiue colours / and so beautifull / as it is meete she should be prepared to so glorious a husband as is the sonne of God. Say you certaynly? and doe you beleue / that the authors of thys booke are conspired wyth the pa­pystes to ouerthrow thys church and realme? Now certaynly I will neuer doe that iniury vnto them / as once to go about to purge them of so manifest slaun­ders / nor neuer be brought by the outrage of your speaches / to proue that noone day is not mydnight. And therfore as for you / I will set your conscience and you together: The reader I will desire not to thinke it a strange thing: For it is no other / then hath happened to the seruaunts of God euen from those which haue professed the same relygion / which they dyd / as it appeareth in Ieremy / whiche 37. Cha. 12. 13 was accused of certayne of the Israelites / that he had conspyred with the Baby­lonyans their mortall ennemyes / and layde to hys charge / that he was going to them when he was going to Beniamin.

To the. 36. 37. 38. page.

IT maketh for the purpose whiche is alleaged out of the first of the actes / to proue / that there ought to be tryall of those which are chosen to the ministe­rie: for when S. Peter sayth / that suche a one must be chosen as hathe bene contynually conuersant with our sauioure Christ / and from the beginning of his preaching vntill the day wherein he ascended into heauen / he ment nothing els / but that such a one should be chosen which was sufficiently instructed and had bene contynually a scholer of our sauioure Christe / and therefore fitte to teache and to witnes that / which they had seene / and whose godly conuersation was notoriously knowne.

Besides that / albeit those two Mathyas and Barsabas were therefore set vp in the myddest / that the church in the prayer that was made for their electi­on / myghte / by seeing them / pray the earnestlyer for them: yet it was also as much to say / that if any could obiect any thing agaynst them / that he should pre­ferre hys obiection.

And whether they were examined or no / the matter is not great / neyther when it is sayde that a tryall should be had / it is ment / that when the parties are famously knowne to those whych haue the right of trying / as / that there shoulde be alwayes necessaryly an apposing and examyning / so that the sufficiencie of doctryne and holynesse of lyfe (for the whych cause the tryall and examynati­on is commaunded) be knowne and agreed vpon by them / that choose / it is enough.

And so these two being notoriously knowne and consented of by the churche to bee fitte men / myght happely not be examyned / but yet the wordes of S. Pe­ter declare playnly / that in the choyse of them / there was regarde had to both / their abilitie to teach / and honesty of conuersation.

And although there be certayne thinges extraordinary in this election / as / that such a one must be chosen which hadde bene conuersant with our fauioure Christ / and that there were two put vp for one place / and that it was permitted to lottes / to cast the Apostleship vpon one of them two / as if the Lord should by the lottes from heauen / tell / who should haue it: yet it followeth not to say / that the rest of the things that are there vsed / should not be practised in ordinary cal­linges / for as much as they will well agree with them.

And M. Caluin in the place you alledge / sayth / that the ordinary callinges somwhat differ from the calling of the Apostles / and after sheweth wherein: that is / in that they were appoynted immediatly of God / and by his mouthe: whereby it appeareth / that for the residue of those thyngs whych are there mentioned / he holdeth that they may well stande wyth the ordinarye elections.

And where you saye that the sixt of the Actes / because it speaketh of Dea­cons / is nothyng to the matter / me thynke you shoulde haue easely vnderstanded that if a triall be necessary in Deacons (whych is an vnder office in the church / and hath regard but to one parte of the church / whych is the pore / and is occupi­ed in the distribution of money) much more it ought to be in an office of greater charge / which hath / respect to the whole church / and is occupyed in the dispen­sing of the holy word of God.

But in the ende you agree that they / shoulde be tryed / so that nowe the que­ction standeth only / howe and by what meanes: wherein you for your part saye / that the booke of ordering mynisters / is a suffycient and good rule. I haue red it / and yet I can not commende it greatly. But you will say / not wyth iudge­ment or indifferencie. I will promise you with this indifferencie / that I wyshed / that all that is there / were good and conuenyent / and such as I myght say vnto / so be it. Wyth what iudgement I doe disalow it / I leaue it to all men to esteeme vpon these reasons.

First / that the examynation of hys doctryne / wholely / and partly of hys life / is permitted to one man. For consydering of the one parte the greatnesse of the charge that is committed vnto the mynisters / and the horrible pearill that com­meth vnto the church by the want of those thinges that are required in them and of the other parte wrighing the weakenesse of the nature of man / which al­thoughe he seeth many thinges yet hee is blynde also in many / and that euen in those thinges which he seeth / he suffereth hym selfe to be caryed away by his af­fection of loue or of enuie. &c. I say / considering these thinges it is very daunge­rous / to commit that to the view and searche of one man / which may wyth losse danger and more safetie be referred vnto dyuers. For herein the prouerbe is true / plus vident oculi quam oculus. Many eyes see more / then one.

And almost there is no office of charge in thys realme which lyeth in electi­on / committed so sleightly to any / as that vpon one mans reporte of hys habili­tie / all the rest which haue interest in the election / will geue their voyces / so that if we were destitute of authoritie of the scripture / the very lyght of reason would [Page 39] shew vs a more safe and weryer way.

But there is greater authoritie / for S. Luke in the first of the Acces / shew­eth that S. Peter would not take vpon him / to present two as sitte for the place which was voyde / but sayth / they dyd present or sette vp: whereby appeareth / that the examynation of their habilitie was committed to manye. The same ap­peareth also in the sixte of the Actes / when as the Apostles wil the church wher­in there were so excellent personages / to looke out seuen full of the holy ghost and wisdome. &c. they doe not there permit the dyscerning of their wisdome and o­ther giftes to one / but to many.

Secondarely / I cannot commend it / for that / that one man is the Archdea­con / which must examyne the pastors / and iudge of their sufficiencie. For what is the Archdeacon? is he not a Deacon? for he being the cheefe Deacon / must needes be also a Deacon hym selfe. And therfore although the cheefe deacon / yet inferioure to any of the pastoures: and the * giftes which are required in hym / in­ferioure 1. Tim. 3. to those which are required in the pastoure. And to make him iudge of the aptnesse & ablenesse of the pastoure / is to make the inferioure in giftes / iudge of the superioure: he that hath by hys calling lesse giftes / iudge of his which hath by his calling greater giftes / which is nothing else / then to appoynt him that hath but one eye / to ouersee hys sight / that hath two.

Thirdly / I mistyke the booke / because it permitteth that the Bishop may admit the minister / vpon the credite and report of the Archdeacon / & vpon his ex­amination / if there be no oppositiō of the people: which appeareth by these words in the booke / whereas to the Archdeacon saying thus. Reuerend father in God. I present vnto you these persons to be made priestes. &c. The Byshop answereth. ¶ Take heede that the persons whome you present vnto vs / be apt and meete for their godly conuersacion / to exercise their ministerie duely / to the honour of God and edifying of his church. And thereupon I thinke it commeth / that the Archdeacon is called the eye of the Byshop. But why doth not he himselfe take heede vnto it? with what conscience can he admit a Minister / of whose fitnesse he knoweth not / but vpon the credit of an other / although he were otherwise ve­ry fitte? where can he haue that full perswasion that he doth well / vpon the report of others / when the report of his life / and learning / is made but of one. And there­fore * S. Paul ordayned / that the same should be the ordeyners and the examy­ners / 1. Tim. 3. and not to hang vpon the fayth or report of an other man / in thinges that are so waightie / and whereof he may him selfe take notice.

Fourthly / for that albeit the church is demaunded whether it haue any thing to obiect / yet that church whereof he is to be pastor / & which it skilleth especially that he be fitte / is not demaunded / and which would (because it standeth them vpon) inquire dyligently of hym.

Agayne / they are demaunded / which can obiect nothing of his insufficiencie / when for the most part they neuer see nor heard of before / as one that came of one day vnto the towne / and goeth away the next.

Further / they haue no reasonable space geuen them / wherein they may inquire or hearken out of hys honest conuersation: and haue some experyence of hys soundnesse in teaching and discretion and iudgement to rule hys flocke. But if as sone as euer it be sayde / to those that are straungers that they should obiect agaynst them / no mā stand forth to obiect any thing / forthwith he is made a my­nister. And these are those things wherein I thinke the booke of ordering My­nisters faultie / touching the tryall and examynation of the mynisters / whiche selfe same thinges are lykewyse of the tryall of the Deacon. And so you see / that besydes the faultes of those that execute the lawe / that there bee faultes in the lawes themselues / and therefore the cause is truely assygned / althoughe you see it not.

And what meane you / still to vse thys fyghting wyth your owne shadow? for where are the wordes / or what be they that condemne all the Ministers / for some? that say all the Ministers are vnlawfully admitted / for some? or that there is none good / because some are badde? If there be no such wordes / as cary with them any suche sense / then you do wrong to your brethren. If there be wordes that declare the cleane contrary / then all men see what you be / which althoughe you often faulte in / yet I am lothe so often to name and charge you wyth it. When it is sayd / that learned and vnlearned are receyued / it is euydent that they condemne not all.

The Lord blesse and encrease an hundreth folde the godly / wise / learned / graue ministers of thys churche. And because these wordes seeme to rocke vs a sleepe / and to bring vs into forgetfulnesse of the great ruines & desolations of the Churche / I muste tell you that two thousande able and suffycient mynisters / which preache and feede dyligently / and carefully the flocke of Christ / were hard to be founde in thys Churche / which haue bene notwithstanding founde in the Church of Fraunce / by the estimation of those which know the estate / euen vn­der the tyme of the crosse / where there were no such helpes of Magistrates / and appoynted stypendes / as God be praysed we haue.

And agayne / you are to be put in mynde / that a great number of those were bredde in king Edwardes dayes / so that I feare me a man neede no great A­rithmatike to counte the numbers of such able ministers / as the late yeares haue brought forth. And yet I am well assured / that if the ministerie were reformed / and worthy men were sought for / there are great nombers of zelous and learned men / that would lay their handes to serue thys kynde of building by the ministe­rie. For besydes numbers that the Vniuersities would yelde / which sigh for the repayring of the decayes of the church / to helpe forwarde so great a worke / the Innes of Courte / and other the gentrie of the realme / Galene / and Iustinian / would bryng theyr tenthes / and (as it were) pay their shot in this reckening. It is not denied / but the testimonie that a noble man which professeth the truth doth geue / ought to be weighed accordyng to hys degree & place which he hath in the common wealth / but where you thinke / that the testimonie of one wise man / lear­ned / and godly / is sufficient warrant to proceede to an election of a Minister / you considered not well the circumspection which S. Paul vsed / who when he ad­mytted Tymothe into hys company / to be a companyon in hys iourney / to cutte of all occasion of euill speche / receyued hym not * but vpon commendation of the brethren / both in Lystra and I conyum. You know they ment by the basest of 16. Act. 2. 3. the people / such as gaue but one leape out of the shoppe into the Church / as soden­ly are chaunged out of a seruing mans coate / into a mynisters cloke / making for the most part / the ministerie their last refuge. &c. And seeing that besydes / the words be playne / y^e dayly experience teacheth it / you neede not make it so strange / as though you knew not what they meant.

To the next section beginning in the. 38. page.

WHat ought to be generall / if thys ought not / to put the minister that hathe bene an idolater / from hys mynisterie? is it not a commaūdement of God / and geuen / not of one Leuite or two / but of all those that went backe / not at one tyme / but at others also / when the like occasion was geuen / as appeareth in the booke of Kings / where all the priestes of the Lord that had sacrificed in the 2. Chap. 23. 9. high places / were not suffered to come to the altare in Ierusalem? Doth not S. Paul make smaller causes of deposing from the mynistery then idolatrie? for af­ter 1. Timo. 3. he hath described what manner of men the ministers should be / and deacons / he addeth: And being tryed / let them execute their functions / as long as they re­mayne [Page 41] blamelesse. I thinke if so be a man had bene knowne to be an adulterer / although he repented him / yet none that is well aduised / would take him into the ministerie. For if S. Paul reiect him that had ij. wyues at once (which was a thing that the Iewes and Gentiles thought lawfull / and that was common a­mongst them / and had preuayled throughout all the world) how much les would he suffer any to be admitted to the ministerie / which should be an adulterer / and haue an other mans wyfe / which is condemned of all that professe the name of Christ / and which is not so generall a mischeefe as that was: Or would he suffer him to abyde in the ministerie / which should commit such wickednes during his function / lykewyse of a murtherer. Now the sinne of Idolatry is greater & more detestable / then any of them / in as much as pertayning to the first table / it imme­diatly stayneth Gods honor / and breaketh duetie to him / vnto whom we more owe it (without all comparison) then to any mortall man. And if S. Paul in the choyse of the widow / to attende vpon the sicke of the church / which was the low­est office in the church / requireth not only such a one as is at the time of the choise / honest and holy / but such a one as hath led her whole life in all good workes / and with commendation / how much more is that to be obserued in the minister or byshop of the church / that he be not only at the tyme of his choyse / but all other times before such a one / as hath lyued without any notable / and open offence of those / amongst whome he had his conuersation.

If I should stand with you / whether Peter his forswearing that he knew not Christ / were a greater fault then to go from the gospell to idolatrie / and there in / for some long space to continue / as the Leuites dyd / I shoulde trouble you. For if a man / sodenly and at a push / for feare / and to saue his life / say and sweare he is no christian / and the same day repent him of hys fault / although it be a great and haynous cryme / yet it seemeth not to be so great / as his is / which not only denyeth Christ in words / but doth it also in deedes / and worshippeth Antichrist / and continueth in that worship / not a day / but moneths / and yeares.

But I wil answere you / that euen as our sauiour Christ called S. Paule in the heate of his persecution / & whē he was a blasphemer vnto the Apostleship / so he hauing the law in his owne handes / and making no lawes for him selfe / but for vs / might call S. Peter also to that function / which had thrise denyed him.

But as it is not lawfull for vs / to follow the example of Christ in calling of Paul / by admitting those which are new conuerted / hauing a contrary precept geuen / that no * new plant / or greene christian / should be taken to the mynisterie: 1. Tim. 3. 6. So is it not lawfull / to follow that example of our sauiour Christ / the contrary being commaunded / as I haue before alledged. For albeit the examples of our sauiour Christ be to be followed of vs / yet if there be commaundementes gene­rall to the contrary / then we must know / that it is our partes to walke in the broade and beaten way / as it were the common caussie of the commaundement / rather then an outpathe of the example.

I know Ambrose was taken newly from Paganisme / to be bishop of Mil­laine / for the great estimatiō & credite he had amongst the people / but besides that I haue shewed / that suche thinges are vnlawfull being forbidden. The errors and corrupt expounding of scriptures / which are founde in his workes / declare that it had bene more safe for the churche / if by studie of the scriptures / he hadde first bene a scholer of dyuinitie / or euer he hadde beene made doctor. There may be more examples shewed out of that / which you call the prymitiue churche / to the contrary of that which you say. For when they vsed often tymes agaynste those that hadde so falne suche seueritie (in deede extreme and excessiue) that they were neuer after / vntill their deathes admitted to the Lordes table: I leaue to you to thinke / whether they woulde then suffer any suche to execute the func­tion 1. Lib. Epist. epist. 7. of the ministerie. Besides that S. Cyprian hath also a speciall treatise of [Page 42] thys / that those that haue sacrificed to idolles / should not be permitted any more to minister in the church. But you aske what they say to M. Luther / Bucer / Crannier / Latimer / Ridley? I pray you when dyd these excellent personages / euer slide from the gospell vnto idolatrie? which of them dyd euer say Masse / af­ter God had opened them the truth? what hath so blynded you that you can not distinguishe and put a difference / betweene one that hauing bene nousled from hys youthe vp in idolatrie / commeth afterwardes out of it / and betweene hym / which hauing knowledge of the gospell / afterward departeth from it / and of such is the place of Ezechiel / of such I say / as haue gone backe and fallen away.

I know none / that haue beene preachers of the gospell / and after in the time of Queene Mary malsemongers / which now are zealous / godly / & learned prea­chers / and if there be any suche / I thincke for offence sake / the Church might better be without them then haue them. You say God in that place sheweth how greuous a sinne idolatrie is / in the priestes especially. And is it not now more gre­uous in the mynister of the gospell / whose function is more precious and know­ledge greater? And if the sinne be greater / should it haue now a lesse punishment / then it had then? how shall the fault be esteemed great or little / but by y^e greatnes or smalnesse of the punishment? you sayde before the places of Deuteronomie / touching adding and diminishing nothing from that which the Lord commaun­deth / were for the Iewes / and are not for our times. And thys commaundement of God in Ezechiel / you say / serued for that time / and not for oures.

You worke a sure way / which to mayntayne your corruptions / deny the scripture / which speaketh agaynst them / to be vnderstanded of those which be in our time / and that to be vnderstanded of our ministers / which was of theirs / or of our faultes / which was of theirs. Thys is not the way to Anabaptisme / but to all heresies / and schismes / that euer haue bene or shall be. For if you goe forwarde in clipping the scripture / as you begin / you will leaue vs nothing in the ende / wherewith we may eyther defend our selues agaynst heretikes / or be able to strike at them.

Whereas you say / there is a great difference / betweene the seueritie of the law / and lenitie of the gospell / me thinkes I smell a spice of the error of the Ma­niches / which were also schollers in that behalfe of the olde hereticke Cerdon / that there is a good and an euill / a gentle and a seuere God / one vnder the law / and an other vnder the gospell. For to saye that God was then a seuere puny­sher of sinne / and that now he is not at so great hatred wyth it / but that he will haue it gentlyer and softlyer dealt with: is euen all one in effect with that / which supposeth two Goddes. I will ioyne with you in it / that the transgressyons of the law in the tyme of the gospell oughte rather to be seuerelyer punyshed / then they were vnder the law / for as muche as the knowledge is greater / and the a­boundance of the spirite of God / whereby the lawes are kept is more plentifull / then vnder the lawe.

At this tyme I will content me with the place of Zach. which prophesying 13. Chap. 3. of the kingdome of Christe / and of the tyme of the gospell sayth / that then the father and mother of the false Prophet shall cause theyr owne sonne to bee put to deathe. It is as absurde which is brought / to proue that the papistes whiche worshippe God falsly / doe not faulte so haynously as the Israelites dyd / which worshipped the Idolles. As who shoulde saye / the Iewes or any other the grossest idolaters that euer were / dyd euer take those thinges which they wor­shipped / Serpentes / Oxen / Fire / Water. &c. to be God / or knew not the I­mages before which they fell downe / were Woode or Stone / Siluer and Gold. And who knoweth not / that they thought that they worshipped by them and in them / the God which made heauen & earth. The Iewes when they molted a gol­den Exod. 32. calfe / and fell downe before it / did neuer thinke that to be God / * but sayde [Page 43] that they wold kepe holy day to the Lord Iehouah. Wherein I will put you ouer to y^e learned treatises of the godly new wryters / which do refute this distinction being brought of the papistes / as a shift to proue that the Idolatrie which is for­bidden in the olde Testament / toucheth not them / because they worship God by these things / and the idolatrous Iewes and infidels / worshipped nothing else / nor loked at nothing else / thē the bare things before which they fell down. Which selfe same distinction you bring to proue / that papistrie is not so detestable / as the idolatrie of the Iewes. It may be / that certayne of the Gentiles worshipped by their images / Iupiter and Iuno. &c. but you can not shew / that the Israelites euer worshipped any other God / then the true God / so that their fault was only / in that they worshipped him otherwise / then he had appoynted. And the Gentiles that worshipped many Gods / worshipped one as the head and cheefe / and the rest as small companions / and as they termed them / minorum gentium deos, as the papistes doe God as the cheefe / and the sainctes as other petie gods.

And here all men may see / what a good proctor you be for the papistes / bothe in lestning their faultes / and abating their punishments / and yet will not I saye / that you are conspired with them / or haue receiued your see of them. But if you can shew where / or in what one poynt / those that you charge with confederacie / haue layde so softe pillowes vnder their heades as these are: they refuse not to be called confederate and conspired with the papistes.

To the next section in the. 40. page.

WHat should become of the people in the meane season / whilest they learne their Catechisme / and when they haue learned it / they are no more fitte to be Ministers and to teach other / then he that hath learned his Accidence / is meete to set vp a schole. And it can not be defended / but it was a grosse ouer sight / to enioyne ministers to learne a Catechisme. It were much to compel them to read it. And if a man would haue declamed agaynst the ignoraunce of the most part of the ministers / three whole dayes together / he could not haue sayde more against them / then that Canon which sendeth them to their A. B. C. and prin­ciples of their religion. How know you / that they quote the Catechisme in the margent in derision? is there any sillable or letter that soundeth that wayes? if you coniecture it because they haue set it in the margent / you may as well say that they likewise quote the scriptures in derision / being also placed there.

But how followeth this? it is meete that ministers shoulde learne euerye day / therefore it is meete they be enioyned to learne Cathechismes? it is meete they shoulde reade Cathechismes / therefore meete to learne them / and be enioy­ned to learne them? is there nothing worthyer the learning and profession of the minister / then to learne Cathechismes? or dothe a manne learne those thinges alwayes / which he readeth? dothe he not reade thinges some tyme to record the things that he hath learned. For because they say it is not meete that ministers should be enioyned to learne a Cathechisme / you conclude of their wordes / that they would not haue a minister to learne / or to reade any thing / which is as farre from their meaning or wordes eyther / as you are from the reasonable and vp­right expounding of them.

To the two next sections in the. 41. and. 42. page.

IT hath bene likewise shewed / what was in that election extraordinarie / and what pertayneth to the ordinarie callings. And in the .vj. of the Actes it was shewed / that if the Deacons shoulde not be thrust vppon the congregation a­gaynst the will of it / muche lesse ought the minister. And if that congregation [Page 44] had by the commaundement of the Apostles an interest in the choyse of their go­uernoures / I see not why the same commaundement remayneth not to be follow­ed of other churches. Your reasons wherewith you would make difference / shal be after considered.

The Answere to the next section / being the 43. page. and vntill (I adde) which is in the 44. page.

VNto these places of the first and sixthe of the Actes is added / first the place of the fourtenth of the Actes / where the authors of the admonition do proue / that the election ought not to be in one man hys hand / but ought to be made by the churche / agaynst which M. Doctor taketh three exceptions. The first is / for that it is sayde that Paule and Barnabas ordayned Elders / whereby he would conclude / that the congregations had nothing to doe. But how siender a reason that is / it may be considered of infinite places in the scripture / whereof I will recite two or three.

In the fifthe Chapter of Iosua it is sayde / that Iosua made him sharpe Chap. 5. 3. kniues for the circumcising of the children of Israell / and a little after that Io­sua circumcised them. Shall we now vppon these wordes conclude / that Iosua dyd make the kniues himselfe / or was a cutler / or being made to hys hande / dyd whet them and sharpen them / or shall we say that he dyd circumcise the children of Israell / in his owne person and hym selfe alone / when as that was done by many / and by the Leuites to whome that offyce appertayned? no / but the scrip­ture declareth / that Iosua procured sharpe kniues to be made / and exhorted and commaunded the people to be circumcised.

In Exodus / it is sayde / that Moses dyd appoynt vnto the people / Princes / Chap. 18. 25. Captaynes ouer thousandes and hundrethes. &c. And if any conclude thereup­pon / that hee dyd it him selfe alone / hee is by and by confuted by that whiche is wrytten in Deuteronomie / where it appeareth / that the people dyd chuse 1. Chap. 13. them / and presented them to Moises. What is it then that is sayde in Exodus that Moises appoynted them / but that Moyses assembled the people / and exhor­ted them to appoynt rulers / and tolde them what manner of men they should be / and in a worde / sate as it were moderatour in that election?

To come to the newe Testament: In the Actes it is sayde that Paule and 16. Chap. 4. Timothe delyuered vnto the churches the orders and decrees of the Apo­stles and elders / and yet it appeareth in another place / that the Church had also to doe / and gaue their consent vnto the making of those decrees / so that the former place meaneth / that the Apostles and Elders dyd goe before / and were the cheefe / 15. Act. 23. and directors of that action.

The same manner of speach is vsed of the Romane stories / wherein it is sayd that the Consull dyd make Magistrates / for because that he gathered the assem­bly and voyces whereby they were made: and so S. Luke sayth heere / that Paul and Barnabas ordayned / because they being the moderators of the Electi­on / caused it to be made / assembled the churches / tolde them of the necessitie of ha­uing good pastors and gouernors / gathered the voices / tooke heede that nothing should be done lightly / nothing tumultuously / or out of order. And so to conclude / it is an euill reason to say as M. Doctor doth / that because S. Luke hath / that Paule and Barnabas ordayned / therefore the people were excluded.

And I maruell with what conscience he coulde answere so in thys place / es­pecially where it is forthwith added / that they ordayned them by the suffrages and voices of the church. But you say that the Greeke worde cheirotonein, is by the common opinion of almost all Ecclesiasticall writers / vsed in the scripture for the solemne maner of ordaining of ministers by the imposition of hands / which is [Page 45] the second exception you take to this reason. Wherin / but that I haue promised to holde my selfe to the matter / and that these bolde asseuerances in matters most vntrue / are so common / that if I should euery fote pursue them / I should wea­ry my selfe and all others / I coulde not keepe my selfe from running out to mar­uell at such high speaches / voide of truthe. First / where you say that some trans­lation hath / that they ordained ministers wythout making mention of election / what haue you gained therby / when I can shew mo that translate it otherwise / and say it is that they ordained by election / or voices / or suffrages? I had not the commoditye of bookes / wherby I coulde see the iudgement of all Ecclesiasticall wryters. But of those whych I had / I finde that there was but one only M. Gualter of that minde / and yet he dothe not shut out the peoples consent in the e­lection. Master Caluin / M. Beza / M. Bullinger / M. Musculus / M. Bren­tius / he that translated Chrysostome vppon that place / Erasmus in his Para­phrases vpon that place / are of the contrary iudgement / of whose iudgement I would not haue spoken / if you woulde not haue gone about thus to abuse youre reader / wyth suche manifest vntruthes / to ouerthrow the order which God hath established.

But let all authorities of men go / and let vs examine the thing in it self. If so be that the holy ghust had ment the solemne putting on of the handes vpon the heades of him that was created elder and minister / had he not words enough to vtter this hys meaning? would he haue / for laying on of hands / vsed a word that signifieth lifting vp of hands? would he haue vsed a word signifying holding vp for laying downe? for when the hands are layd of the head of an other / they are layd downe / and not holden vp. There are words in the olde Testament / and in the newe / before S. Luke wrote / and after he wrote / to expres thys ceremony of laying on of hands / and yet none haue euer expressed thys.

S. Paule speaketh thrise of it in his Epistles to Timothe / and alwayes he 1. Tim. 4. 14. 1. Tim. 5. 22. 2. Tim. 1. 6. vseth epithesis ton cheiron. In the old Testament where thys ceremonie is vsed and spoken of / the Septuaginta did neuer translate cheirotonein. But as the wryters of the newe Testament epithesis cheiron. And what should I stande in thys / when as S. Luke him selfe / bothe before and after / speaking of that cere­mony 8. Actes. 17. 9. Actes. 17. 19. Actes. 6. of laying on of hands / doth neuer vse this word cheirotonein, but the same word whych s. Paule vseth / and the Septuaginta? and although the holy ghost speake properly and wel by whomsoeuer he speaketh / yet it could haue ben worst of all sayd by S. Luke of all the Canonicall wryters / that he should speake thus vnproperly / who of them all wryteth moste purely and elegantly / according to the phrase of the moste eloquent Grecians / and therfore he borowed this speache of the auncient Greeke wryters / whych did vse to expres their elections by thys worde / because they were made / and voyces geuen / by thys Ceremonie of lifting vp of handes.

But what if S. Luke haue vsed thys worde before / and in thys booke / in the signification of chusing by voyce / dare you then say that he vseth it heere for putting on of hands? In the Actes / S. Peter sayeth that Christ after hys re­surrection / 10. Chap. 41. appeared not vnto the whole people / but vnto those whom he had be­fore chosen by his voyce to be hys witnesses / he vseth thys word procecheiroto­nemenous. Nowe if you will say heere / that it is to be turned / those of whome he layd his handes / I will aske you where you read that euer he layd his handes of their heads / I will shewe you where he did by hys heauenly voyce appoynt thē. Math. 28. 19. And I thinke you are not able to shew in any Greeke author auncient / & which men do take to be autenticall / to teache the propertie or eloquence of the Greeke tongue / I meane which were before S. Luke his time / where the worde chei­rotonein, is taken for the laying on of hands of the head of any.

Thys I confesse that the Greeke Ecclesiasticall wryters / haue sometimes [Page 46] vsed it so / but you muste remember that S. Luke coulde not learne to speake of them that came two or three hundreth yeares after him / but he borrowed thys phrase of speache of those that were before him / and therfore speaketh of elections as they did. So that you see thys shift will not serue.

Let vs therfore see your third: whych is / that although the Churches con­sent was then required / yet is it not nowe / and that it is no general rule / no more then (say you) that all things should be therfore common now / because they were in the Apostles time.

The authors of the Admonition / wyth their fauourers / muste be counted Anabaptists / no one word being shewed whych tendeth thervnto / you must ac­cuse them whych confirme that foundation whereof they build their communitie of all things / whych is one of their cheefe heresies. If I shoulde saye nowe that you are like to those that rowe in a boate / whych although they loke backwards / yet they thrust a nother way / I should speake with more likelihode thē you haue done. For althoughe you make a countenaunce / and speake hotely against Ana­baptistes / yet in deede you strengthen their handes wyth reasons. But I will not say so / neither doe I thinke that you fauoure that secte / but only the whirle­winde and tempest of your affection bent to maintaine this estate / whereby you haue so great honoure and wealth / driueth you vpon these rocks to wracke your selfe on / and others.

For I pray you what communitie is spoken of either in the second / thirde / or fourth of the Actes / whych ought not to be in the church / as long as y^e world standeth? was there any communitie but as touching the vse / and so farre for the as the pore brethren had neede of / and not to take euery man a like? was it not in any man his power to sell his houses or landes / or not to sell them? When he 1. Actes. 45. 5. Acres. 4. had solde them / was it not in euery man his libertie / to keepe the money to hym­selfe at his pleasure? and all they that were of the Church / did not sell their pos­sessions / but those whose heartes the Lord touched singularly wyth the compas­sion of the neede of others / and whome God had blessed wyth aboundance / that they had to serue them selues / and helpe others / and therefore it is reckened as a 4. Actes. 36. rare example / that * Barnabas the Cyprian and Leuite did sel hys possessions / and brought the price to the feete of the Apostles.

And as for Ananias & Saphira / they were not punished for because they brought not the price of their possessions to the Apostles / but because they lyed / saying that they had brought the whole / when they had brought but parte. And to be shorte / is there any more done there / then S. Paule prescribeth to the Co­rinthians / and in them to all churches to the worldes end? After he had exhorted to liberalitie towardes the pore churche in Ierusalem / not (sayth he) that other 2. Cor. 8. 13. 14 should be releeued and you oppressed / but vpon like condition at this time / your aboundance supplieth their lacke / that also their aboundance maye be for youre lacke / that there might be equalitie / as it is wrytten / he that gathered much / had nothing ouer / and he that gathered little / had not the les.

Surely / it were better you were no Doctor in the Churche / then that the Anabaptistes should haue suche holde to bring in their communitie as you geue them. In summe / the Apostolike communitie / or the Churches in their time was not Anabaptisticall.

Vnto the place of the seconde Epistle to the Corinthians / and. 8. chapter / you aske what maketh that to the election of the ministers / but why doe not you say heere / as you did in the other place that the apostle meaneth nothing els but the putting on of the handes of them whych ordained / for the same worde chei­rotonetheis is heere vsed / that was there / and this place dothe manifestly and wythout all contradiction conuince your vaine signification that you make of it in the other place / and the vntruthe / saying that the scripture vseth thys woorde [Page 47] for a solemne manner of ordering ministers by putting on of handes. For heere it is sayde that he that was ioyned wyth Paule / was cheirotonetheis by the church / and it is manifest that the imposition of hands was not by the church & people / but by the elders and ministers / as it appeareth in s. Paule to Timothe. 1. Tim. 4. 14. 2. Tim. 1. 6.

Now / to come to that which you make so light of / for say you how foloweth this / the church chose Luke or Barnabas to be cōpanion of Paule his iourney: Ergo, the churches must chuse their ministers? It followeth very well / for if it were thought [...] meete / that Saynte Paule shoulde not chuse hym selfe of hys owne authoritie a companion to helpe hym being an Apostle / is there any arch­byshoppe that shall dare take vppon him to make a minister of the gospell / being so many degrees (bothe in authoritie / and in all giftes needefull to discerne and trye oute / or take knowledge of a sufficient minister of the gospell) inferioure to S. Paule?

And if S. Paule woulde haue the authoritye of the churche to ordaine the Minister that shoulde ayde hym in other places for the gathering of reliefe of the poore Churches / howe muche more did he thincke it meete / that the Churches shoulde chuse their owne Minister / whych should gouerne them. Which things may be also sayde of the election in the first of the Actes: for there the Churche firste chose two / whereof one shoulde be an Apostle / whych shoulde not be Mi­nister of that Church / but should be sent into all the world. So that alwayes the Apostles haue shunned to do any thing of their owne willes / without the know­ledge eyther of those churches where they instituted any gouernors: or if it were for the behofe of those places where there were no churches gathered / yet would they ordaine none / but by the consent of some other churche / whych was already established. You will not deny / but that in the Apostles time / and S. Cyprians time in many places the consent of the people was required / shewe any one place where it was not?

Dothe not S. Luke say / that it was done churche by churche / that is in euery churche? And where you say it endured but to S. Cyprians time / it shall appeare to all men / that it endured in the churche a thousande yeare and more af­ter hys time. And it appeareth in y^t he vsed it not as a thing indifferent / but ne­cessary / Cipr. 1. Lib. Epi. 4. ep. and argueth the necessitye of it / of the place of the first of the Acts / which is alleaged by the authors of the Admonition / and so they are not their argu­mentes that you throwe vp so scornefully: saying / how followeth this / and this / what proueth it / but Cyprians / whome by their sides you thrust throughe / and so vnreuerently handle. But you say these examples are no generall rules. Ex­amples of all the Apostles / in all churches / and in all purer times / vncontrolied and vnretracted / eyther by any the primitiue and purer churches / or by any rule of the scripture / I thinke ought to stand. If it were a priuate example of one / or in one place alone / or if it were countermaunded by any other rule of the scrip­ture / then the example were not alwayes safe to follow. But what if there bee commaundement also?

In the booke of Numbers / the Lorde commaundeth that the Leuites 8. Chap. 10. which preached the word of God to the people in their seuerall congregations shoulde be brought before the Lorde and before the people / and the people should lay theyr handes vppon the Leuites heades: which / what other thing is it / then to declare their lyking of them / and by that ceremony to consecrate them / and set them aparte for that vse of their ministerie? And if you say that it were a dis­order that all shoulde lay on their handes / I graunt you: but so he speaketh / because the approbatiō was by all / and some in the name of the rest declared that / by their laying on of handes.

But me thinketh I heare your olde answere / that this pertaineth not vnto vs / being a thing done vnder the law: but take heede what you say / for if you wil [Page 48] admit neyther the generall examples of the newe Testament / nor the commaun­dements and examples of the Olde / take heede that you do not or euer you be a­ware / spoile vs of the cheefe and principall pillers and buttresses of our religion / and bring vs to plaine Catabaptistrie / whych you say you are so afraid of.

For to proue the Baptisme of children and yong infantes / what stronger holde haue we / then that God commaunded in the old Testament / y^e they should be circumcised / and examples thereof in the newe Testament / for that the Apo­stles baptised whole families / wherby all likelyhode there were children. Now / we saye that there is thys commaundement in the olde Testament / of the mini­sters / and there are examples in the newe Testament generall and through out / why shuld it not then be necessary in this / as wel as in the other? Besides that / in the. 6. of the Actes / the Apostles commaund that the church should seke them out Deacons / whome they might appoynt ouer the poore.

Touching certaine Ceremonies / I haue shewed that they are necessarye: as namely the Sacraments.

And as for Discipline and gouernment / I haue shewed partly / and more heereafter will be shewed / that they are of the substance of the gospell / if to haue Excommunication / be to haue Discipline / or if to haue pastors or Byshops / and Doctors / and Deacons / be gouernment of the Churche. You say / that howsoe­uer in the Apostles time thys vse was of hauing the consent of the church in the choise of their pastor or byshop / nowe in thys estate it were moste pernicious and hurtfull. Wherin / see how vnaduisedly you condemne the churches of Geneua / of all Fraunce / of certaine of the Germaine churches / which keepe thys order. But you alledge your reasons / therefore those those are to be considered / because they come so rare. For your manner is / that if you can haue but one wryter / newe / or olde of your side / or whych seemeth to be of your side? you runne away wyth the matter / as though you had scripture / reason / doctors / and all.

I will therefore then take a viewe of your reasons / when as I shall haue breefely set downe those reasons / wherby the perpetuall equitie / reasonablenes / and conueniencie of thys order / that the church should haue a stroke in her mini­sters election may appeare.

It is sayd amongst the Lawyers / and in deede reason / which is the law of all nations / confirmeth it. Quod omnium interest, ab omnibus approbari debet. That whych standeth all men vpon / should be approued of all men. Which lawe hath this sense / that if it may be / it were good that those things whych shall binde all men / and whych require the obedience of all / shoulde be concluded as farre as may be / by the consent of all / or at least by the consent of as many as may be got­ten. And therfore it draweth much the obedience of the subiectes of thys realme / that the statutes whereby the realme is gouerned / passe by the consent of the moste parte of it / whilest they be made by them / whome the rest put in trust / and chuse for that purpose / being as it were all their actes.

So is it also when the question is to chuse the magistrate / Mayor / or bai­liffe / or Constable of euery towne / whych things if they haue good groundes in ciuill affaires / they haue much better in Ecclesiasticall. For it is much more vn­reasonable that there should be thrust vpon me / a gouernoure of whom the euer­lasting saluation or damnation both of my body and soule doth depend / then him of whome my wealth and commoditye of thys life doth hang. Onles those vpon whome he were thrust / were fooles / or madde men / or children / wythout all dis­cretion of ordering them selues / whych as I will shewe / can not agree wyth those / that are the church of god / and are to haue a pastor. For they of the church of God / although they be called sheepe in respect of their simplicitye and harme­lesnes / yet are they also for their circumspection wise as serpents / in the wisdom especially whych is to saluation: and how vile accompt so euer you wil make of [Page 49] of them / they are the people of God / and therfore spirituall / and forthwith those of whome S. Paule sayth / the spirituall man discerneth all thyngs. 1. Cor. 2. 15.

Moreouer / reason and experience teacheth / that it maketh muche to the profiting of the church vnder the hande of the pastor or bishop / that the churche loue him and reuerence him: For the contempt and hatred of the minister for the most parte / standeth not in hys owne person / but reacheth euen vnto the doctrine whych he teacheth. But the minister that the churche desireth / it commonly best loueth and moste reuerenceth / and of the other side hateth and contemneth hym / that is thrust vpon them / therfore it maketh muche to the profiting of the people in the doctrine of the gospell / that the minister come in / by their consent. Like­wise / the people must by S. Paule hys rule / folowe the good example of the mi­nister: 1. Tim. 4. 12. but men will not likely folowe their examples / whome they loue not / nor loue them / whych are thrust vpon them against their willes / therfore it standeth wyth the good conuersation and godlye folowing of the steppes of the minister / that he be wyth the consent of the Churche.

And if it should happen (whych may come to passe) that any church should desire or chuse / or consent vpon by the most part / some that is vnmete / eyther for doctrine or manners / then the ministers and elders of the other churches rounde about / should aduertise first / and afterward as occasion should serue / sharply and seuerely charge / that they forbeare suche election / or if it be made / that they con­firme it not / by suffering him to exercise any ministerie. And if eyther the chur­ches round about do faile of this duety / or the church whych is admonished / rest not in their Admonition / then to bring it to the nexte Synode / and if it rest not therin / then the Prince or Magistrate / whych must see that nothing in the chur­ches be disorderly and wickedly done / ought to driue that church from that elec­tion to an other whych is conuenient. Nowe I will examine the reasons which you adde to proue / that although in times past the church chused their ministers / yet nowe it must be otherwise.

To the fyrst difference in the. 44. page.

YOu say it was in the Apostles times vnder the crosse / and therfore few / and so might easely knowe one an other / who were fitte for the ministerie: But you forget your selfe maruellously. For in the Apostles times / the churche I meane visible and sensible (for else how could it be persecuted) was sowne not only through out all Asia (whych is the greatest part of the world) but through a great part of Affrica / and no small portion of Europe: and nowe it is shut in a small corner of Europe / being altogither banished out of Asia and Affrica. And therfore there are not the tithe nowe / of those that professed the gospell then / and what a conclusion is thys / the churches were few in numbre / because they were vnder the crosse. For to let passe bothe other scriptures and stories ecclesiastical / haue you forgotten that whych is sayd in Exodus / that the more the children of Chap. 1. 12. Israell were pressed and persecuted / the more they multiplied? Thē you say they kepte togither / and mette often / and so knowing one another / were best able to iudge one of an other. But heerein you speake as one that hathe small experience of persecuted churches / for in the time of persecution / the christians that were in one great citie / were faine to gather them selues oute of all the corners / and from all the endes of the Citie / to one place / being not able to deuide them selues into many parishes / bothe for other considerations / and because they were not able to maintaine many ministers / and elders / and Deacons / wherby it may be vnder­stande / that by all likelyhode in one great citye / they had but one congregation / and therfore that must needes be scattered heere and there / and so could not haue the commoditye eyther of often meeting / or of knowing one an other so well / as [Page 50] where suche a citie is deuided into many churches. Those that knowe the estate of Fraunce in the time of persecution / do well vnderstand that euery church al­most was gathered of townes / whereof some were sixe miles / some seuen / some more / from the place of meeting / and keeping their congregations. And therefore coulde not meete so often / nor knowe one an other so well / as we / by the grace of God may do / whych meete oftner / and in les number then they doe.

To the next section in the 45.

THose that write the Centuries / suspect thys Canon / and doubt whether it be a bastarde or no / considering the practise of the church: But heere or euer you were aware / you haue striken at your selfe. For before you sayde / that thys order of chusing the minister by voyces of the church / was but in the Apo­stles tyme / and duryng the time of persecution. And the first time you can alledge thys libertie to be taken awaye / was in the 334. yeare of our Lorde / which was at the least 31. yeares after that Constantine the great began to raigne. I say at the least / because there be good authors that say / that thys Councell of Laodicea was holden Anno. 338. after the death of Iouinian the Emperoure / and so there is 35. yeares betweene the beginning of Constantines raigne / and thys councel. Now I thinke you will not say that the Church was vnder persecution in Cō ­stantines tyme. And therfore you see you are greatly deceiued in your accoumpt.

And if it be as lawfull for vs to vse maister Caluins authoritie / which both by example and wrytings hath alwayes defended our cause / as it is for you to wryng him and his wordes / to things which he neuer meant / and the contrary wherof he continually practised / then thys authoritie of youres is dashed. For Vppon the Actes. 16. maister Caluin sayth / where as it is sayd in that councel / that the election should not be permitted to the people / it meaneth nothing else but that they should make no election / without hauing some ministers or men of iudgement / to direct them in their election / and to gather their voyces / and prouyde that nothing be done tu­multuously / euen as Paule and Barnabas were cheefe in the election of the churches. And euen the same order woulde we haue kepte in elections continu­ally for auoyding of confusion / for as we would haue the libertie of the Church preserued / which Christ hath bought so dearely from all tyranny / so do we agayne condemne and vtterly abhorre all barbarous confusion and disorder.

But if councelles be of so great authoritie to decide thys controuersy / then the most famous councell of Nice will strike a great stroke with you / which in an Epistle that it wryteth vnto the Church of Egipt (as Theodoret maketh mention) speaketh thus. It is meete that you should haue power both to chuse any man / and to geue their names which are worthy to be amongst the clergye / and to doe all things absolutely according to the law and decrees of the churche. And if it happen any to dye in the churche / then those which were last taken / are to be promoted to the honor of him that is dead / with thys condition / if they be [Page 54] worthy / and the people chuse them / and the bishop of the citie of Alexandria to­gether geuing his consent / and appoynting them.

An other of the famousest councelles / called the councell of Constantinople / which was gathered vnder Theodosius y^e great (as it is witnessed by the * Tri­partite 9. Lib. 14. cap. storie) in an Epistle which it wrote to Damasus the pope / and Ambrose and others / sayth thus. We haue ordayned Nectarius the byshoppe of Con­stantinople / with the whole consent of the counsell / in the sight of the Emperour Theodosius beloued of God / the whole Citie together decreeing the same. Like­wise he sayth that Flauian was appoynted by that synode / byshop of Antioche / the whole people appoynting him.

Likewise in the councell of Carthage where Augustine was / holden a­bout anno domini 400. in the first canon of the councell it is sayde / when hee hath bene examyned in all these / and founde fully instructed / then let hym be or­dayned Byshop by the common consent of the clarkes and the lay people / and the Byshoppes of the prouince / and especially eyther by the authoritie or presence of the metropolitane.

And in the Toletane councell / as it appeareth in the 51. distinction / it was thus ordayned. Let not hym be counted a priest of the Churche (for so they speake) whome neyther the clergye nor people of that citie where he is a priest doth chuse / nor the consent of the metropolitane & other priests in that prouince hath sought after.

Moreouer / concilium Cabilonense which was holden anno domini. 650. in the tenth Canon / hath thys. If any Bishop after the death of hys predecessor be chosen of any but of the byshops in the same prouince / and of the cleargie & ci­tizens / let an other be chosen / and if it be otherwise / let that ordination be accomp­ted of none effect. All which councelles proue manifestly / that as y^e people in their elections had the ministers rounde about / or synodes & counceiles directing them / so there was none came to be ouer the people / but by their voyces or consentes.

To the next section in the 45. page: Thys alteration. &c.

IN deede if you put such darke coleures vpon the Apostles church as thys is / it is no maruell if it ought not to be a patrone to vs of framing and fashioning our church after it. But O Lord who can paciently heare thys horrible disor­der / ascribed to the Apostles church / which heere you attribute vnto it: that eue­ry one hand ouer head preached / baptised / and expounded the Scriptures. VVhat a window / nay / what a gate is opened heere to Anabaptistes / to confirme their fantasticall opynion / wherin they holde / that euery man whome the spirite mo­ueth / may come euen from the ploughe taile to the pulpit to preache the worde of God. If you say it is Ambrose saying and not youres / I answere / vnlesse you allow it / why bring you it / and that to proue the difference betwene the Apostles times and these. For if it be false (as it is most false) then there is no difference heere betwene the Apostles times and oures. Doth not the whole course of the scriptures declare / and hath it not bene proued / that there was none that tooke vppon hym the ministerie in the churche / but by lawfull calling? what is thys but to cast dust and dirte of the fairest and beautifullest image that euer was / to make a smokie / disfigured / euill proportioned image to seeme beautifull / to ouer­throw the Apostles buildings of golde and siluer and precious stones / to make a cottage of wode / straw / and stubble / to haue some estymation / which could haue none / the other standing. For in effecte so you doe / when (to vpholde a corrupte vse that came in by the tyrannie of the pope) you goe about to discredite the or­ders and institutions which were vsed in the Apostles times? and that with such manyfest vntruthes.

To the next section in the. 45. page: Musculus also. &c.

THe place is too common which you assigne / you had I am sure the booke be­fore you / you might haue tolde where the place was / and in what title. But that place of Musculus in the title of the magistrate / is answered by hym selfe in the same booke / where he entreateth of the election of the ministers. For going about (as it seemeth) to satisfie some of their ministers / which were brought in doubt of their calling / because they were not chosen by their churches / speaking of the vse of the church in chusing their minister / he sayth thus.

First / it must be playnly cōfessed / that the ministers were in times past cho­sen by consent of the people / and ordayned and confirmed of the semores.

Secondarily / that that forme of election was Apostolicall and lawfull.

Thirdly / that it was conformable to the libertie of the churche / and that thrusting the pastor vpon the church / not being chosen of it / doth agree to a church that is not free but subiect to bondage.

Fourthly / that thys fourme of choise by the church maketh much bothe to that / that the minister may gouerne hys flocke with a good conscience / as also that the people may yeelde them selues to be eastyer ruled / then when one com­meth agaynst their willes vnto them.

And to conclude all these / he sayeth that they are altogether certayne / and such as can not be denyed. After he sayth that the corrupt estate of the churche and religion driueth to alter this order / and to call the election to certayne lear­ned men / which shoulde after be confirmed of the Prince. And that it may yet more clearely appeare that hys iudgement is nothing lesse then to confirme thys election / he setteth downe their election in Bernland / which he approueth and laboureth to make good / as one which although it doth not fully agree with the election of the prymitine churche / yet commeth very neare vnto it: As that not one man but all the ministers in the citie of Berne / doe chuse a pastor when there is any place voyde.

Afterward he is sent to the Senate / from the which / if he be doubted of / he is sent agayne to the ministers / to be examined / and then if they fynde him meete / he is confirmed of the Senate / (which standeth of some number of the people) and by the most part of their voyces. By these things it appeareth / that this elec­tion of the minister by the people / is lawfull and Apostolike / and confessed also by him / that those that are otherwise / bring with them subiection vnto the church / and seruitude / and cary a note and marke of corruption of religion.

Last of all / that he goeth about to defende the election vsed in the churches where he was minister / by this / that it approched vnto the election in the primi­tiue Churche. Nowe what cause there may bee / that we should bring the church into bondage / or take away that order wherby both the mynister may be better assured of hys calling / and the people may the willinglyer submit them selues vnto their pastoures and gouernoures / or what cause to depart from the Apo­stolike forme of the choise of the pastor being lawfull / I confesse I know not / and would be glad to learne.

To assigne the cause hereof vnto the christian magistrate / & to say / that these things can not be had vnder hym (as you / vnder maister Muscuius name / doe affirme) is to doe great iniurie vnto the office of the magistrate / which abridgeth not the liberty of the churche / but defendeth it / dimmisheth not the pastor his as­surance of his calling / but rather encreaseth it / by establishing the ordinary cal­lings only / which in the time of persecution sometimes are not so ordinary / with­draweth not the obediēce of the people from y^e pastor / but vrgeth it / where it is not / & constrayneth it / wher it is not volūtary. And seeing that also Musculus sayth / that these forced elections are remedies for corruption of relygion / and disordered [Page 56] states / what greater dishonoure can there be done vnto the holye institution of God in the ciuile gouernoure / then to say that these forced elections without the consent of the people must be / where there is a christian Magistrate: as thoughe there coulde be no pure religion vnder him / when as in deede it may be easely vn­der him pure / which can hardly / and with great daunger / be pure without him. And when as it is sayd / that the churches consent should be had in the election of the minister / we doe not denye the confirmation of the elections vnto the godly ciuill magistrate / and the disanulling of them / if the church in chusing / and the ministers in directing / shall take any vnfitte man / so that yet / he doe not take away the libertie from the church / of chusing a more conuenient man.

So that you see / that by Musculus your witnesse reasons / this enforced e­lection without the consent of the people / is but corrupt / and so ought not to be in the churche. And that although it hath bene borne withall / yet it must be spoken agaynst / and the lawfull forme of election laboured for / of all those that loue the truth / and the sinceritie therof.

To the next section in the. 46. page.

NOw you would proue that thys election of ministers by one man was in the Apostles time. But you haue forgotten your selfe / which sayde a little before / that this election by the church / was not only in the Apostles times / but also in the tyme of Cyprian: now you say otherwise. And if the election of the ministery by the church agree so wel with the time of persecution / and when there is no christian Magistrate / how commeth it to passe / that in those dayes when persecution was so hotte / and there were no such Magistrates / that S. Paule would haue the election by one man / and not by the church. Besydes that / if this be S. Paule hys commaundement / that the byshop should only chuse the mini­ster / why doe you make it an indifferent thing / and a thing in the power of the church to be varyed by times / for this is a flarte commaundement. Thus you see you throwe downe with one hand / as fast as you builde with the other. But to answere directly to the place of the fifthe of the first to Timothe.

I saye first / that S. Paule wryteth to Timothe / and therefore instructeth hym what he should do for his parte in the appoynting of the minister. If he had written to the whole Churche of Ephesus / he would lykewise haue instructed them how they should haue behaued thē selues in that businesse. If one do wryte vnto hys frende / that hath interest in any election / to take heede that he chuse none but such as are meete / shall any man conclude therupon / that none hath to doe in that election / but he to whom that letter is writtē? Then I say further / that S. Paule attributeth that vnto Timothe / that was common to moe with hym / because he being the director and moderator of the election / is sayde to doe that whiche many doe: which thing I haue proued by dyuers examples both out of the scripture / and otherwise before. And euen in this imposition of handes / it is manifestly to be shewed. For that where as S. Paule sayth in the 2. Epistle / 2. Tim. 1. 6. that Timothe was ordayned by the putting on of hys hands vppon hym / in the first Epistle he sayth / that he was ordayned by the putting on of the handes of 1. Tim. 4/12. the eldership. So that that which he in one place taketh to him selfe alone / in the other he communicateth with moe. And that he dyd it not him selfe alone / it may appeare by those wordes which folow (and communicate not with other mens sinnes) as if he should saye / if other will ordeyne insuffycient ministers / yet be not thou caryed away with their example. And further that his authoritie was equall with other elders of that church / and that he had no superioritie aboue his fellowes / it may appeare / for that he sayth lay thy hands rashly of none / where if he had had authoritie ouer the rest / he would rather haue sayd / suffer none to lay [Page 57] his handes rashly. Agayne / it is a fault in you / that you can not distinguishe or put difference betweene the election and imposition of handes.

Last of all / I answere that although this might agree to Timothe alone / as in deede it can not / yet it followeth not that euery Bishop may do so. For Ti­mothe was an Euangelist / which was aboue a Bishop / as hereafter shall bet­ter appeare. And it is an euill argument to say the greater may do it / therfore the lesse may do it. The superiour / therfore the inferioure. If you were at any cost with producing your witnesses / you should not be so vnwise to be so lauishe of them / as to cite Ambrose / and Chrisostome / to proue a thing that none hath e­uer denyed. For who denyeth that S. Paule doth not geue warning to Timo­the to be circumspect? If you meane to vse their testimonie to proue that he only made the elections / they saye neuer a word for you / if there be any thing / cite it. To the place of Titus / I answere as to that of Timothe / for there is nothing there / but agreeth also to thys place. And as for Ierome he hath nothing in that place / as he hath in no other / to proue that to the Bishop only / doth belong the right of election of the minister.

I haue shewed you reasons before / why it cā not be so taken of the sole elec­tion of the Bishop / the church being shutte out. If authoritie woulde doe any good in thys behalfe / as it seemeth it ought / seeing that all your proofe throughe out the whole booke / is in the authorities of men / (which Aristotle calleth a­technas peiseis, vncunning proofes) I coulde sende you to maister Calum / which teacheth / that it is not to be thought that S. Paule woulde permit to Titus to ordayne byshoppes and ministers by hys owne authoritie / when he hym selfe would not take so much vpon hym / but ioyned hys with the voyces of the church. But he peraduenture sauoureth not your tast / and yet you woulde make men beleue sometimes / that you make muche of hym if you can gette but one worde vnioynted / and racked in peeces from the rest / to make good your part. If hee weyghe not with you / you haue maister Musculus / whome you take to bee a Musculus in his common places in his title of the elec­tion of mini­sters. great patrone of youres in thys cause / which dothe with greater vehemencie af­firme the same thing that mayster Caluin sayth / asking whether any man can beleeue that Paisle permitted in thys place to Titus / or in the place before al­ledged to Timothe / that they shoulde ordayne of theyr owne authoritie / and by them selues / when as Paule woulde not doe it but by the voyces and election of the churche.

In the ende you say it is the generall consent of all the learned fathers / that it belongeth to the byshop to chuse the minister. Because you acquaint my eares with such bolde and vntrue affirmations / I can now the more paciently heare you thus vaunting your selfe / as though you had all the fathers by heart / and ca­ryed them about with you / wheresoeuer you went / whereas / if a man woulde measure you by the skill in them which you haue shewed heere / he woulde hardly beleeue that you had redde the tenthe part of them.

Are all the learned fathers of that mynde? I thinke then you would haue bene better aduised then to haue sette downe but one / when as you know a mat­ter in controuersie / will not be tryed but by two or three witnesses / vnlesse the Lord speake hym selfe / and therefore you geue me occasion to suspect that because you cite but one / you know of no more: now let vs see what your one witnesse will depose in thys matter.

And fyrst of all you haue done more wisely then simply / in that you haue altered Ieromes wordes. For where hee sayeth / wherein doth a byshoppe differ from an elder / but only in ordayning: you say a byshop doth excell all other mynisters. &c. I report me heere vnto your conscience / whether you dyd not of purpose chaunge Ieromes hys sentēce / because you wold not let y^e reader vnder­stand what oddes is betweene S. Ieromes bishops in his dayes / & betwene our [Page 58] Lord Bishoppes. For then the byshop had nothing aboue an elder or other mi­nister / but only the ordayning of the minister. Now he hath a thousande pari­shes / where the minister hath but one. For the matters also of the substaunce of the ministerie / the bishop now excommunicateth / which the minister can not / ab­solueth or receyueth into the church / which the minister can not. Besides diuers other things which are meere ciuill which the byshop doth / and which neither byshop nor other minister ought to doe. I say I reporte me to your conscience / whether you altered Ieromes wordes to thys ende / that you would keepe thys from the knowledge of your reader or no. For answere to the place / it is an euill argument to saye the byshop had the ordayning of the minister. Ergo he had the election of hym / the contrary rather is a good argument / the byshop had the or­dayning of the minister / therefore he had not the election of hym. For ordinati­on and election are dyuers members of one whole / which is the placing of the pa­stor in hys church / and one member can not be verified of an other / as you can not say your foote is your hand. I will not deny / but that sometimes these wordes maye bee founde confounded in Ecclesiasticall wryters / but I will shewe you also / that they are distinguished / and that the election pertayneth to the people / and ordayning vnto the Byshop.

Vpon the sixte of the Actes the glose hath / that that which was done there of the xij. Apostles / in willing the brethren to loke out fitte men / was done to geue vs example / & muste be obserued in those that are ordayned. For sayth the glose / the people must chuse / and the Byshoppe must ordayne. And that S. Ie­rome must be so vnderstanded / it appeareth not only that it hath beene so expoun­ded: but also it may be casely proued / for that S. Ieromes sentence and iudge­ment appeareth in other places / that he woulde haue nothing heere done with out the people / as in his Epistle / ad Rusticum monachum: he willeth that the peo­ple shoulde haue power and authoritie to chuse their clarkes and their ministers / and in hys Epistle to Neopotian / of the lyfe of the clarkes / he hath thys distinc­tion manifestly: They runne / sayth he / vnto the Bishoppes suffragans certen times of the yeare / and bringing some summe of money / they are annoynted / and ordayned / being chosen of none / and afterwarde / the Bishoppe without any lawfull election / is chosen in hugger mugger / of the Canons or Prebendaries only / without the knowledge of the people. And so you see / that although y^• S. Ierome sayeth / that the Byshop had the ordayning of the ministers / yet he had not the election / for the ordayning was nothing else but an approuing of the elec­tion / by putting on of handes / and consequently / hauing made your vaunt that all the learned fathers were of thys iudgement / that the Bishop should elect the minister / you shew not so much as one.

Now will I shewe you the cleane contrary of that you saye / not that I gladlye trauaile thys wayes / for if you had not constrayned me / you shoulde not haue hearde one voyce thys way. And woulde to God that you woulde be con­tent / especially when you meete with those that will be tryed by the scriptures / to seeke no farther strengthe then they geue you. But I am lothe you shoulde oppresse the truthe / and make all men afrayde of it / by making them beleeue / that it is so desolate and forsaken of her frendes / as you pretende. You confesse S. Cyprian is agaynste you herein / and he was a learned father / and a Martyr al­so / whych dyd not only vse thys forme of election / but also taught it to be necessa­ry / and commaunded / and therefore me thincketh you shoulde not haue sayde all the learned fathers without exception. You see also S. Ierome is of an other iudgement. S. Augustine also / when hee speaketh how hee appoynted Eradi­us to succeede hym / sheweth / howe it was the approued right and custome / that the whole church shoulde eyther chuse / or consent of their Bishoppe. And * Ambrose sayeth / that that is truely and certaynely a diuine election to the office Epist. 81. [Page 59] of a byshop / which is made of the whole church. Eregorius Nazianzene in the Oration which he had at the death of hys father / hath diuers things which proue that the election of the minister pertayned to the Churche / and confuteth those thinges which should seeme to hinder it. These were learned fathers / and yet thought not that the election of the pastor or byshop / pertayned to one man alone but that the church had also hir interest / therefore you see all the learned fathers are not of that mynde / you say they are.

And that thys election continued in the churche / vntill within a three hun­dred yeares / at what time there was more then Egyptiacall / and palpable darck­nesse ouer the face of the whole earth / it may appeare in a Treatise of Flaccus Illir [...]cus / whiche he calleth an addition vnto hys booke that he entituleth the Catalogue of the witnesses of truthe / of whome I confesse my selfe to haue bene muche holpen in thys matter of the choyse of the church touching the ministers: especially in the Emperoures Edictes which are before cited. For lacking op­portunities diuers wayes / I was contented somewhat to vse the collection to my commoditie / for the more speedie furtheraunce / and better proceeding in other matters / which I will leaue of / because they may be there red of those that be learned / whome I will also referre to the sixe and seuen bookes of Eusebius / wher both the formes of the electiōs in those tymes are described / & wher / besides that the customes of the peoples choise is set forth / there are examples of the electi­on of the people and cleargie / which were confirmed by the christian Magistrate / namely in the Byshop of Constantinople. And these may suffice for the other that haue not that commoditie of bookes / nor habilitie / nor skill to reade them / be­ing in a straunge tongue / to knowe / that besides the institution of God in his worde / thys manner of election dyd continue so long / as there was any light of the knowledge of God / in the churche of God. I will adde only one place / which if it be more bitter then the rest / and cutte the quicke more neare / you shall not bee angry with me / but first with those that were the authors of it / and then wyth him that wrote it.

Eusebius speaking of Origine / which was admitted not of one Bishop / 6. Lib. cap. 20. but of many Byshoppes to teache / sheweth how the Byshoppes were reprehen­ded by the Byshoppe of Alexandria called Demetrius / because they had admit­ted him without the election of the presbyterie of the churche / which were the cheefe in the election in euery church / and vnto the which the churches did com­mitte the gouernment of them selues in euery seuerall towne and Citie / & sayth / that it hath not beene hearde that laikous shoulde homilein paronton ton episco­pon: which is / that the lay men should teach when the Byshoppes were present / whereby it is euident / that he counted hym a lay man / which was only admitted by the Byshops / although they were many / not being first elected by the presby­terie of that church wherof he was the teacher.

Seing then that the scripture doth teache thys order / that there shoulde be no minister thrust vppon the churche / but by the consent thereof / and reason per­swadeth that wayes / and the vse of the churche hath beene so from time to time / both in peace and in time of persecution / bothe vnder tyrantes and godly Prin­ces / it can not be without the highe displeasure of almightie God / the great hurte and sore oppression of the churche / that one man shoulde take thys vnto hym / which pertayneth to so many / or one minister / which pertayneth to more then one / especially / where the aduise of learned ministers may concurre with the peo­ples election or consent.

Now if any man will rise vp and saye / that this doctryne bringeth in disor­der / and by thys meanes children / and boyes / and wemen shoulde haue their voyces / whiche is vnseemely / all men vnderstand that where the election is most [Page 60] freest and most generall / yet only they haue to doe / which are heades of families / and that thys is but a meere cauill to bring the truth in hatred / which is vnwor­thy to be answered / & requireth rather a Censor / then a Disputer to suppresse it.

To the. 47. and. 48. pages.

THe reason is of greater force then you woulde seeme to make it / for as the twelueth place was to Mathias / so is a certayne churche vnto a pastor or mynister / and as the Apostles ordayned none vnto that place / before it was voyde / so ought not the Byshoppe ordayne anye / vntill there be a churche voyde and destitute of a pastor. And as the Apostles ordayned not any Apostle / further then they had testimonie of the worde of God / as it appeareth that S. Peter Act. 1. 20. proceedeth by that rule to the election / so ought no byshop ordayne anye to anye function / which is not in the scripture appoynted: but there are by the worde of God at thys time / no ordinarie ministeries ecclesiasticall / which be not locall / and tyed to one congregation / therefore thys sending abrode of ministers / which haue no places / is vnlawfull.

And that it may the better appeare / that those functions doe only remayne / which are appoynted to one certayne place / and that the reader may haue the clea­rer and playner vnderstanding of all this matter / all the whole ecclesiasticall func­tion may be well deuided: first into extraordinarie / or those that endured for a time / and into ordinarie / which are perpetuall. Of the first sorte are the Apostles and Euangelistes / which the Lord vsed for a tyme as it were for cheefe masons / and principall builders of his church / as well to lay the foundations of churches where none were / as also to aduaunce them to such forwardnesse and heighte / vntill there mighte be gotten / for the finishing of the building and house of the Church fitte pastors / elders / and deacons. And that being done / they went from those places into others / which thing may be perceiued by the continuall storie of the Actes of the Apostles / and by diuers sentences which are found in the Epi­stles of S. Paule. And therefore also / when the churches haue beene by anti­christ euen rased from the foundations / God hathe stirred vp Euangelistes euen immediatly by this spirite / without any calling of men / to restore hys churches a­gayne: of whiche sorte was Maister Wickliffe in our Countrie / Maister Hus and Ierome of Prage in Bohemia / Luther and ♉winglius in Germa­nie. &c. And after thys sorte / God maye at hys good pleasure worke / when hee purposeth to set in hys gospell in anye nation / where the whole face of the earth is couered wyth the darckenesse of ignoraunce / and wante of the knowledge of God.

Of this sort of extraordinary functions are the Prophetes also / which be­sides a singular dexteritie and readines of expounding the scriptures / had also the gift of telling things to come / which because it is not now ordinarily / I thincke there is none wildeny / but it is an extraordinary calling: For the other two of the Apostles and Euangelistes / it shall appeare more at large hereafter (by occa­sion geuen by maister Doctor) that they are but for a tune.

The ordinary & continual functions of the church / are also deuided into two partes / for eyther they are they that gouerne or take charge of the whole church / as are those which are called elders / or they which take charge of one part of the Churche (which is the poore of euery church) as are those which are called dea­cons. Those agayne that are presbyteri / which we terme elders of the church / and haue to do with the whole church / are eyther those which teache and preach the word of God / and gouerne so / or else which gouerne only / and do not teach nor preach. Of the first kinde are pastors & doctore. Of the second are those / which are called by the cōmon name of elders or auncients. Of all this ordinary function I [Page 61] shall haue occasion to speake / and of euery one shall appeare that (which I haue sayd before) that they are no vncertaine and vndefunte ministeries / but such as are limited vnto a certaine churche and congregation. And first of all for the pa­stor or byshoppe whych is heere mentioned: whych name so euer we consider of them / they do forthwith as sone as they are once either spoken or thought of / im­ply and infer a certen and definite charge / being as the Logicians terme them / actuall relatiues. For what shepheard can there be / vnles he haue a flocke? and howe can he be a watchman / vnles he haue some citie to loke vnto? Or how can a man be a master / onles he haue a seruaunt? Or a father vnles he haue a childe? Nowe if you will say that they haue a charge / and they haue flockes and cities to attende and watche vppon / for a wholo shire / or prouince / or realme / are their flockes / and their cities / and their charges.

First of all in your reading ministers that is vntrue / for they goe not to reade in all churches / but tary vntill they be hired in one. And therfore when the Bishop hath laide hys hand of them / they are no more ministers then before hys hund came vpon them / because they haue no charges / and therfore the patrone or person that hireth them to read / and setteth them a worke are their byshops / and make them ministers / and not the Bishop of the diocese.

Secondarily for those that preache to haue a whole diocese / or prouince / or realme to be their flocke / or citie to attend vpon / is contrary to the pollicy or good husbandrye of all those / that woulde eyther haue their citie safe / or their flockes sound. For who are they whych would appoynt one for the watch of a thousand townes or cities / when as all they whych loue their safetye / woulde rather haue for euery citye many watchmen / then for many cities one? or what is he that is so watchfull and circumspect / whose diligence and watchfulnes one citye assaul­ted wyth ennemies / will not wholely occupy and take vp? or what is he whose sight is so sharpe / that he can see from one ende of y^e diocese / or prouince / or realme to the other ende thereof? or what is he that will commit the keeping of .xx. M. sheepe to one man / that loketh for any good / or encrease of them? howe shall all these heare hys whistle / howe shall all knowe his voyce / when they can not heare it? how shall they acknowledge hym / when they can not knowe hym? howe shall they folowe him / when they can not see him goe before? howe shall he heale their diseases / when he can not possibly know them. But some man wil say / that these are humaine reasons / and likelyhodes whych maye be ouerthrowne wyth other similitudes. These notwithstanding are Analogies drawne from the nature of those things whych the ministers are likened vnto / and are of the moste parte v­sed of the holy Ghoste hym selfe expresly. But that there be no controuersy left in this poynt / what is a flocke? S. Paule defineth it plainly / when he sayeth: ap­poynte Titus. 1. 5. pastors / or elders / or byshops (for these woordes are indifferently vsed) through / not euery shire / or prouince / or realme / but through euery city / or town. And least that any man should here take occasion to conclude / that then it is law­full for one manne to be bishoppe or pastor of a whole Citie / suche as London or Yorke. &c. S. Luke in the Actes dothe declare the meaning of this place / where 14. Chap. 23. he sayth / that they appoynted elders throughoute euery congregation / so that if the citie or towne be great / and the professors of the gospell in it / be more then wil make conueniently a congregation / then there muste be by the rule of God more pastors and byshops. Whervpon it appeareth / that bothe no pastor or byshoppe ought to be made without there be a flocke / as it were a voyde place for him / and that a flocke is not a realme / or prouince / or dioces (as we now call a dioces) but so many as may conueniently meete in one assembly or congregation. And that thys is the meaning of S. Paule / it appeareth by the practise of the Churches from time to time / whych haue both decreed against / and found fault wyth these wandering / and rouing ministeries.

The great councell of * Calcedon decreed that no elder / or deacon / or anye Cap. 6. actio. 15 other in the ecclesiasticall order shoulde be ordained apolelymenos: that is losely / and as it were let goe at randone whether he him selfe listeth / whych he also in­terpreateth by and by more plainly when he addeth / that he should not be ordai­ned Eime idicos en ecclesia poleos e comes: that is / vnies it be specially in a con­gregation of some citie or towne. And in the councell of Vrban (as Gratian re­porteth / distinction. 70.) it was decreed / that the ordination that was made w^t ­out any title / should be void / and what that meaneth / is shewed by and by / when it is sayd / & in what church any is intitled / there let hym alwayes remaine. And thys is also S. Ierome hys complainte / in that men were ordained vnto the mi­nisterie / Ad Nepotia­num. when they were chosen by no churche / and so went rounde aboute ha­uing no certaine place. And therefore thys / that none ought to preache / onles he haue some pastoral charge / ought not to haue ben so strange a thing vnto you as you make it / if eyther the scriptures / or the councels / or the ancient fathers had bene so well knowen vnto you / as eyther your name requireth / or you take vp­on you / whych dare so boldly pronoūce / that there can be shewed no text of scrip­ture for the matter.

But you aske what place Paule & Barnabas had apoynted them. What / meane you therby to conclude / that because Paul & Barnabas the apostles had no place appoynted them / therfore a pastor or bishop shuld not? when this is one difference betwene the apostle and bishop / that the one hath no certaine place ap­poynted / and the other hath. But I thinke I smel out your meaning / which is / that we may make apostles also at these dayes / and that that function is not yet ceased / for otherwise your reason is nothing worthe. Likewise also you aske of Phillip whych was an euangelist. And so you thinke y^• these running ministers are lawfull / because they are Apostles and Euangelists / against whych I shall haue occasion to speake shortly after in the. 50. page. But if a man be able to liue of himselfe / and minde not to be burdensome to the church / it seemeth vnreasona­ble vnto you / that he may not go about and preach throughout all churches.

Did you neuer read any learned disputations / and that of learned wryters in our dayes about this question: whether (although it be lawful) it be expedient P. Martyr vpon the firste to the Corinth. 9. chap. thincketh it more expedi­ent for one to take wages of the church / al­though he be a­ble to liue of hym selfe. that a man being able and willing to liue of himselfe / ought to take wages of the church / for inconueniences whych might ensue of taking nothing? I do but aske you the question / because you make so great a wonder at this / for I wil not take vpon me heere the defence of it / because I will not multiply questions.

And whye I may you maye not that man that is so able / and will be con­tent to liue of him selfe / why I say may not he teache / and be the pastor of some churche? Doe you thincke that for his forbearing the wages of the Churche / he may breake the lawes and orders that God hath established? for the rest contai­ned in those pages touching the ordaining of ministers or byshops / I haue be­fore spoken at large.

To the. 49. page.

OEcumenius and Chrysostome saye that by Elders he meaneth Bishops / not thereby to seuer those that had the gouernement of the churche togither wyth the pastor & minister of the word / which were called ancients / as you seeme to meane: but to put distinction betweene those whych are elders by age / & elders by office / besides y^• / it is before alleaged y^• it may be y^• the pastor or byshop did in the name of all the elders / lay on his hands vpon hym that was ordained. And lastly / you know and can not denye that s. Paule in one or two places con­foundeth the Bishop and the Elder. To say that the byshop may as wel say (re­ceiue the holy ghost) as to say the words vsed in the supper / or to say y^• the sinnes [Page 63] of those whych to beleue are forgiuen / is dis dia pason, as farre as Yorke & Lon­don. For there / are commaundements to the ministers to do that which they do / and heere is none: and there the minister doth not commaund that the breaue be the body of Christ / but he sayth that it is. Neither dothe he commaund y^• sinnes should be forgiuen / but pronounceth in the behalfe of God / that they are forgeuē. It is not vnlawfull also / that he with the congregation should make a prayer for the assistance / or encrease of God his gifts vpon him that is ordained, but to com­maund that he should receiue it / is meerely vnlawfull. For these words (receiue the holy ghost) are the imperatiue moode / and do expresly signifie a commaunde­ment. And so the bishop may as well say to the sea / when it rageth and swelleth / peace / be quiet / as to say receiue the holy ghost. And if you thinke it so good rea­son / to vse this in the making of ministers / because you vse the wordes of our sa­uior Christ / why may not you as wel blow vpon them as he did? for seeing that our sauior Christ confirmed his word there / with a sacrament / or outward signe / and you thinke you must therfore do it / because he did it / you are muche to blame to leaue out the outward signe / or sacrament of breath / whereby the faith of hym whych is ordained / might be the more assured of such gifts / and graces as are re­quisite in his function. I heape not vp heere the iudgement of the wryters / you knowe / I thinke / it myght casely be done / if I liked to follow that way.

Answere to the. 50. and. 51. pages.

THys passeth all the diuinitie that euer I red / that there are now Apostles / and Euangelistes / and Prophetes. You shall assuredly doe maruelles if you proue that / as you say you will / if any denye it / I denye it / proue you it. And that you may haue some thing to doe more / then peraduenture you thoughte of / when you wrote these words / I will shew you my reasons why I thinke there ought to be none / nor can be none / vnles they haue wonderfull and extraordinarie callings. It must first be vnderstanded / that the signification of thys worde A­postle / when it is properly taken / extendeth it selfe not only to all the ministers of God being sent of God / but to the ambassadoure of any Prince or Noble man / or that is sent of any publike authoritie / and is vsed of the scripture by the trope of Synechdoche for the twelue / that oure sauior Christ appoynted to go through­out all the world / to preache the gospell / vnto the whych number was added S. Paule and as some thinke Barnabas / whych are seuered from all other mini­sters of the gospell by these notes.

First that they were immediately called of God / as s. Paule to the Gala­thians / Galath. 1. 1. proueth him selfe to be an apostle / because he was not appoynted by men.

Then / that they sawe Christe / whych argument S. Paule vseth. Am I 1. Cor. 9. 1. not an Apostle? haue I not seene Christe?

Thirdly / that these had the fielde of the whole worlde to Till / where as o­ther are restrained more perticularly / as to a certen ploughe lande / wherein they shoulde occupye them selues. Wherevppon it followeth / that as we conclude a­gainst the Pope truely / that he can be no successor of the Apostles / not only be­cause he neyther reacheth / nor dothe as they did / but because the Apostles haue no successors / neither any can succeede into the office of an Apostle: so maye we likewise conclude against those / that would haue the Apostles nowe adayes / that there can be none / because there is none / vnto whome all these three notes doe a­gree: as that he is bothe sent of God immediately / or that he hath seene Christ / or that he is sent into all the world.

And althoughe some Ecclesiasticall wryters do call sometimes good mini­sters successors of the Apostles yet that is to be vnderstanded because they pro­pound the same doctrine y^• they did / not because they succeded into the same kinde [Page 64] of function / whych they could not doe. S. Paule doth vse this word (Apostle) sometimes in hys proper and natiue signification for hym that is publikely sent from any to other / as when he speaketh of the brethren that were ioyned wyth Titus / whych were sent by the churches wyth reliefe to the pore church in Ie­rusalem and Iewrie / and where he calleth Epaphroditus an Apostle. But that 1. Cor. 8. 23. Phillip. 2. 25. is wyth addition / and not simply / as in the first place he calleth the brethren the apostles of the Churches / that is not the apostles of all Churches / or sent to all churches / but the apostles whych certaine churches sent with the reliefe to other certaine churches / and Epaphroditus he calleth not an apostle simply / but the a­postle of the Philippians / that is whych the Philippians sent wyth reliefe to Paule being in prison at Rome / as it appeareth in the same Epistle.

And as for Andronicus and Iunius whych are by you recited / belyke to proue that we may haue more apostles / because it is sayd of S. Paule that they were famous and notable amongst the apostles / it cannot be proued by any thing 16. Rom. 7. I see there / whether they had any function Ecclesiasticall or no. For S. Paule calleth them hys kinneffolke / and fellowe prisonners / and dothe not say that they were his fellowe labourers: and a man may be well notable and famous amongst the apostles / and well knowne vnto them / whych is no apostle. And if the apo­stles would haue had this order of the apostles to continue in the church / there is no doubt but that they would haue chosen one into Iames hys roume when he 12. Actes. 2. was slaine / as they did when they supplied the place of Iudas / by chusing Ma­thias / and so euer as they had died / the other would haue put other in their pla­ces. So it appeareth that thys function of the apostles is ceased.

You aske farther / that if a man should not preach before he haue a pastoral charge / what they will answere vnto Phillip and Epaphroditus / wherby your meaning is belike / that although they be no pastors / yet they may be euangelists whych goe about the countrey heere and there▪ But this office is ceased in the church / as the apostles is / sauing that sometime the Lord doth raise vp some ex­traordinarily / for the building vp of the churches whych are falne downe / & pul­led vp by the foundations / as I haue shewed somewhat before. And that it is ceased / it may appeare by these reasons.

First / for because all those that the scripture calleth precisely Euangelists / (which are only Phillip and Timothe) had their callings confirmed by miracle / Act. 8. 39. 1. Tim. 1. 18. and so it is like that Titus / and Syluanus / and Apollos / and if there were any other / had their vocations after the same manner confirmed / but there is no such miraculous confirmation nowe / therfore there is no suche vocation. For allbeit those that God hathe raised vp in those darke times / and ouerthrowes of the church / wherof mētion is made before / as M. Luther. &c. had not their [...]allings alwayes confirmed by direct and manifest miracles of hearing or raising vp from the deade: yet the maruellous succes and blessing that the Lord gaue vnto their labors / were sufficient seales vnto all men / that althoughe they had no ordinarie calling / nor by men / yet they were sent of God? That I speake nothing of the miraculous deliuerances that some of them had out of dangers / by warning ge­uen of pearils by those whych were neuer seene before nor after / and by such like wonderfull meanes / as are to be seene in stories.

Nowe againe / if there should be any Euangelist / who should ordaine him? you will say the Bishop. But I say that cannot be / that the greater shoulde be ordained of the les. For the Euangeliste is a higher degree in the churche / then Heb. 7. 7. is the byshop or pastor. And if he be so / whye hathe he not hys estimation heere in the Churche aboue the Byshop or Archbyshop eyther? for the Archbyshop is but a Byshop / or whye dothe not he ordaine Byshoppes as Timothe and Ti­tus did / whych were Euangelistes / being one poynte of their office as * Euse­bius Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 37. declareth.

Againe / if there be in euery churche a pastor / as S. Paule commaundeth / what should the Euangelists do? for either that pastor doth his duetie / and then the Euangelist is superfluous / or if he do it not / then he is no lawfull pastor / and so ought he to be put out / & an other to be put in hys stead. And where the pastor doing hys duety can not suffice / there the scripture hath geuen him an ayde of the doctor / which for because his office consisteth in teaching doctrine / to thys ende y^• the pastor mighte not be driuen to spende so muche time in propounding the doc­trine / but might haue the more time to employ in exhorting and dehorting / & ap­plying of the doctrine to the times and places / and persons / it is manifest that he also is tied to a certaine church. For howe could he be an aide vnto the pastor to whose helpe he is geuen / onles he were in the same churche where the pastor is? And that the Euangelistes office hath bene so taken as a function that endured but for a time / it maye appeare first by that whych Eusebius wryteth / speaking Lib. 5. cap. 9. 10 of Pantenus / for sayeth he / there were vntill that time Euangelists. &c. whych was about the yeare of our Lord. 162. whereby he geueth to vnderstand / that a­bout that time they ceassed / and that in his time there was none / when notwith­standing there were Byshops or pastors / elders and Deacons. And Ambrose 1. cap. 1. li. offic. sayth that there be no Apostles / but those whych Christ himselfe dyd appoynte / whereby it appeareth that of all the Ecclesiasticall functions that preache the worde / there are but the pastor and Doctor only left vnto vs / and the same also restrained to particulare charges.

Now that I haue proued that there are no Euangelists / Prophets / or A­postles / and that the ministeries of the worde whych remaine / are limited vnto certaine places / I will take that whych you graunte / that is / that the pastor or byshop / ought to haue a speciall flocke. And demaund of you wherfore he should haue it? is it not to attend vpon it? and can he attend vpon it / onles he be resi­dent and abiding vpon it? but he can not be abiding vpon it / if he go from place to place to preach where he thincketh necessary: therfore being pastor or bishop of a congregation allotted vnto him / he maye not goe from place to place to preache where he thinketh good / muche les to haue a mastership of a colledge in one cor­ner of the land / a deanrie in an other / and a prebend in the third / and so be absent from his pastorall charge in such places / where either he preacheth not / or nedeth not to preach / those places being otherwise furnished wythout him. For thē how is this difference kept betweene the pastor & other ministers / that the one is tied to a place / & the other is not. For if you say that it is in that he shall preach more at his flocke / then at other places / I answer that the Euangelists and Apostles did tary longer in one place then in another / & taught some congregations yeres / when they did not other some monethes. And therefore they say nothing / whych alledge for the non residence of pastors / that S. Paule called Timothe & Titus from Ephesus and Crete. For first they were Euangelists and no pastors / thē 2. Tim. 4. 12. Tit. 3. 12. they went not of their owne heads / but called of the apostle whych was a cheefe gouernor of the churche. And thirdly they went not / but hauing other sufficient put in their place / as it appeareth in their seuerall Epistles / so that if that place make any thing / it maketh not to proue the non residencie / but rather whether a minister may be translated from one church to an other.

But I will neuer wearye my penne to confute those / whome their owne consciences are to strong for / and confuteth euery night when they go to bed: for that were nothing else / but to reason with the belly / that hath no eares to heare / or with the backe / that hathe no eyes to see. Those that thinke that they hauing charges of their owne / yet may goe from place to place where they thinke it ne­cessary / and that it skilleth not where they preache / so they preach: must consider that if they thincke that God is the author of their placing in their flockes / then that either their abode there / is nedeful and expedient / or else that God did not see [Page 66] well and clearely / what was meete to be done in placing them ouer that congre­gation / and appoynting that that congregation shoulde hang and depende vppon them / for their nourishment and good gouernement.

And you see that if I wold folow those noble metaphores of watchman & shephard / whych the scripture vseth to expres the office of a minister with / what a large field is opened vnto me. For then I could shew you how that cities bese­ged / and flockes in danger of the wolues / are * watched continually night & day. Luke. 2. 8. And that there is no citye so sore / and so continually besieged / nor no flockes sub­iect to so manifold diseases at home / or hurtfull and deuouring beastes abrode / & that wythout any truce or intermission / as are the churches / the shepheards and watchmen wherof / are pastors or byshops. But I wil leaue that to their consi­derations / and will shew that the partes and dueties of the minister be suche and so many in hys owne flocke / y^e if he were as wise as Salomon was / as great in coūsel as Ioseph / as wel learned as s. Paul / as actiue as Iosue / whych fought so many battels in small space / yet all were little enough / or too little / to performe to the full / that whych his charge requireth of hym. Of the pastors therefore is required / not only the preaching of the word / and ministring of the sacraments / wherof / the preaching of the word / and ministring of the sacrament of baptisme / ought to be continually / and as oft as the church may conueniently assemble / the other sacrament of the Lord his supper / although not so continually (for that the church shall hardly haue so much leifure from their necessary affaires of this life / as that they may celebrate it as often as the other) yet so often / as that we remē ­ber that too rare and seldome celebrating it / argueth a minde too too muche for­getfull of the vnspeakeable benefite of our redemption / and argueth also that we are farre behinde the primitiue church in zeale whych did celebrate it euery Sa­both: I say beside the preaching of the word / and ministring of the sacraments / there is required of him that he shoulde admonishe priuately / and house by house 20. Actes. 20. those that are vnder hys charge. Nowe tell me howe this can be done profitably wythoute a diligent marking / and loking into their manners? Howe can eyther publike preachings / or priuate admonitions haue their effect and working / onles the worde of God be applied according to the disposition or state of that people / vnto whych it is preached? and vndoubtedly heereof it commeth that the word of God is no more effectuall in this realme then it is / for because it is preached hand ouer head wythout knowledge and vnderstanding the estate of the people. For so / often times the promises and glad tidings of the gospell of oure sauioure are preached vnto those / that being before secure in their sinnes / are after the hea­ring of the promises / rocked into a deade sleepe of them / and they that are ouer­throwne wyth the conscience of their sinne / and confounded in them selues / are by the sharpnesse of the lawe / and hearing of the iudgement of God broken into peeces / and driuen to desperation. And so likewyse / the people are taught some­times howe to lead their liues in honest conuersation / when all that doctrine fal­leth to the groūd because they haue no knowledge of Christ / nor of faith in him: and to be short / it is as much as if eyther the surgeon shoulde apply hys plaister / or the Phisition his medicine / when they neither know of the wounde or disease of their pacients. But this knowledge of their estate / can not be without a conti­nuall abode amongst them / therfore a continuall residence is necessary.

Moreouer / as in the lawe the priestes were ready in the temple to answere 1. Sam. 1. 9. all the doubtes and questions that any of the people shoulde come to aske: so the ministers in their seuerall parishes shuld be ready to dissolue the difficulties that either one hathe wyth an other / or wyth him selfe / touching the conscience / for want whereof / the consciences of many / after doubtfull and daungerous wrast­ling wyth the deuill / and wyth despaire are strangled. And thervpon some hang or drowne themselues / some other putting away all care or conscience of sinning / [Page 67] and labouring to haue no sense nor seeling of their sinne / close vp the wound vn­healed / whych after / either breaketh oute more daungerously / or else euery daye more and more waxing senseles / and wythoute feeling / treasure vp vnto them selues the wrath of God against the day of iudgement. For although the iudge­ment of God dothe not for the time followe them so harde / as them whyche throughe terror of conscience vntaughte and vncomforted / kill them selues: yet their estate is neuer the les daungerous therefore / but rather more / for as muche as by a longer line of sinne drawne out / they also pull vpon them selues a heauier condemnation. Whych things when they see oftentimes before their eyes that will consider it / it is easie to iudge that it commeth to passe a great deale oftner then we can see. When as therfore the only preaching of the worde of God being continuall / is a bonde strong enoughe to holde the pastor to hys flocke. Then the enquirie of the manners and behauioure of hys flocke / the priuate admonitions and consolations / the dissoluing of doubtes when anye riseth / as a three or foure folde corde ought much more to holde him: so that he whych shall breake all these thyngs willingly and wittingly / can not easely be thoughte to breake them as Sampson did hys by the strengthe of God / but rather by some other power not of God. Besides that / S. Paule commaundeth that the pastor shoulde be a pa­terne 1. Tim. 4. 12. or example in all goodnes / and holines of life vnto hys flocke / and oure sa­uioure Christ * sayth that when the shepheard hath led forth hys shepe / he goeth Iohn. 10. 4. before them / but if the pastoure be not amongst hys flocke / and haue not hys con­uersation there / they can not followe hym: If they haue not the example before their eyes / they can not make the like vnto it: Therefore this commaundement also bindeth them to residence amongste their flockes. S. Peter willeth the pa­stors 1. Pet. 5. 2. of the churches / that they shuld feede the flockes. What flockes? not euery one / but those whych are committed to their faithe or truste / or whych dependeth vpon them. And S. Paule speaking to the ministers or byshoppes of Ephesus / 20. Actes. 28. willeth them that they should take heede vnto the flockes / ouer the which the ho­ly Ghoste had made them ouerseers / where he restraineth as S. Peter did their ouersight and watche vnto their perticulare flocke. S. Paule sayth that he toke 1. Thes. 2. 17. it heauely / that he was seperated from them but a small time / if therfore the A­postle was away wyth greefe from them whome he had taught / whome his cal­ling compelled to be away from / and would not suffer to be alwayes there: what shall be thoughte of the pastors / whose calling is to be wyth their flockes / and whych are consecrated vnto them / euen as the Apostles were vnto the whole worlde / what I say shall be thought of them that are away moneths and yeres. And in deede those that feede their flockes faithfully according to the commaun­dement of God / do see what a great wisedom and mercy of God it is to appoynt euery flocke his pastor / and euery pastor his flocke. They can tell of a wonder­full loue that God worketh in them towardes their flockes / and in their flockes towardes them. A great encouragement vnto them / and as it were a pricke to stirre vp their dulnes it is / when they see the blessing of God vppon their labors / and thereof a maruellous care and thoughte to turne all suche thyngs away / as should hinder the encrease of that blessing / which they can not haue any feeling or experience of / whych are not conuersante wyth their flockes. Besides this / a fa­miliaritie betweene the pastor and the flocke is profitable / that they maye be em­boldened to come and demaunde to be satisfyed of those thyngs they doubte of / whych they will neuer doe vnto those / whome they are not by continuall conuer­sation acquainted wyth. And it is not nothing / that Aristotle disputeth agaynste Plato his communitie / which woulde haue all things common / and that all men indifferently shoulde haue care of all things / and shoulde haue nothing whych he should say to be hys owne. For therein Aristotle sayd very well / that that which was cared for of all men / was neglected of all / and cared for of none / so that the [Page 68] preseruation of wife or children / or of any other possession / was then the best and surest / when as euery man had a certaine possession committed vnto him / which he should care for / and take charge of. And so the Lord his wisdome was for the better suretie and saluation of hys churche / not to make many ministers whych should in common and indifferently take care of all / but ordained that the church should be deuided into diuers partes / and that euery one shoulde haue a peece to care for / and to giue accompte for.

Nowe if any man will say / that in suche great scarcitie of pastors / it is good that when a man hath trauelled in one place / and remoued them from superstiti­on / and brought them to beleue in God through Christ / to goe to an other place / and assay also to draw them from idolatrie: First I vrge that whych I did be­fore / whych is the calling wherin euery man must abide / and wythout y^• whych no man ought to attempt any thing. Then I say that it is as hard a prouince / & as painfull a thing vnto the pastor / as acceptable and precious a worke vnto the Lord / to keepe those whych are gotten / as to gette those whych are not gotten / and that that saying is fulfilled heere (if in any thing else.)

Non minor est virtus quam quaerere parta tueri.

It is as great a vertue to kepe that whych is already gotten / as to haue got it.

For we know that after that the deuill perceiueth / that men are pulled out of the power of darknes / into the glorious light of the gospel / he sweateth and la­boureth by a thousand meanes to destroy them / & bestirreth him selfe more then / then in the time of their ignorance / and in steade of that one chaine of ignorance / and want of the knowledge of god / he layeth a thousand traps for them / to snare them with. So that the continuall danger that the church is in / dothe as it were speake vnto the pastor in the common prouerbe. Sparten hen claches kosma: that is / looke diligently to that charge whych thou haste receiued. For / if the watch­man shoulde forsake the Citie / wherevnto he is appoynted / and goe and watche in an other / where he is not called / althoughe he saue that / if he lose the other / he shall not therefore escape the punishment of betraying the other citie / where he was placed watchman.

Touching the behalfe of God & his glory / if any man will say that they can not pearish / which once haue beleued / and therfore those may be left / and others attempted / I can say of those that are in ignorance and blindnes / that they cānot pearish that be elected / although they neuer haue the gospel preached. And ther­fore we muste walke in those wayes that God hathe appoynted / to bring them to saluation / whych is to feede them continually / and watche ouer them so long as they are in danger of hunger / in danger of wolues / in danger of the ennemyes / within and without / which is so long as the church is heere vpon the earth.

Vpon all whych things I conclude / that the residence of the pastor is ne­cessary / and to dout whether the pastor ought to be resident amongst his flocke / is to doubt whether the watchman should be in hys tower / the eye shoulde be in the head / or the soule in the body / or the shepheard amongst his flocke / especially where the sheepe are continually in danger of wolues / as in the lande of Iewrie from whence thys similitude or manner of speache was taken / where they wat­ched their flockes night and day / as I obserued before out of S. Luke.

If any man will herevpon conclude / that they haue no space geuen them to slepe / to eat / to drink. &c. they are cauils / which I wil not vouchsafe to answer.

Againe / if he wil say / that then they may not goe for the of the towne to doe their necessary busines for their families / I desire them in the name of God / that they abuse not his graces / in deuising cloakes to couer their disorders / but y^t they would set before them the loue of Christ / whych shall be found to be so much as 21. Ihon. 15. 16. 17. they shall shew themselues diligent in continuall feeding their flockes / & to feare the iudgement of God / before whome / no fained or coloured excuse will stande: [Page 69] and so I trust they will make no longer absences / then must needes. And if vpon any occasion at any time they be somewhat longer / that the same be not without the leaue of their churches whose they are / and which they for the Lord hys sake serue / and then also that in such rare and necessary absence / they prouide them of some able man to teach in the meane season / which the church by her gouernoures / will allow of.

And heereupon also / is ended an other question that the answerer maketh / whether one may haue many flockes / which is / whether one shepheard may bee many shepheards / one watcheman / many watchmen. For if his residence be ne­cessary in one place / then he ought to content him selfe with one.

And whereas you would haue men charitably iudge of those which take many lyuinges: surely / if so be that he taketh many flockes / not to the intent to haue more lyuing to mayntaine an ambitious pompe / or to satisfie a greedy desire / of hauing more then enough / but to thys end y^• he may bring in a more plentifull harnest vnto the Lorde: it were good that he would be content to take but that lyuing of all hys flockes / which he now hath of one / especially where one is able to keepe and maintayne hym and hys family honestly. Else let hym heare what councels / & others / haue thought of those / which haue more benefices then one.

In the. 15. Canon of the councell of Nice it is cōmaunded / that no clearke should be placed in two Churches / and he addeth the reasons / whereof the first is / that it is a poynt of marchaundise / and of filthy gayne. The seconde / that Math. 6. 24. 1. Cor. 7. 24. no man can serue two maisters. The thirde / that euery one ought to * tary in that calling / wherein he is called.

And in the seconde Tome of the Councelles / Damasus in hys fourth E­pistle / lykeneth those that set ouer their charges vnto other / vnto harlots / whiche assone as they haue brought forth their children / by and by geue them to be nou­rished of others / to the intent that they might the soner fulfill their inordynare lustes.

Whether it were better y^• one dyligent pastoure should haue many flockes / then a neglygent and vnskilfull pastor one / is not the question: for we say neither is lawfull / nor ought to be done.

Doe you beleeue that which you sette down of Denys the monke & Pope / that he deuised and deuided parishes? If you doe not / why would you haue vs beeleeue it? If the law doth condemne hym / that turneth a blynde man out of Deut. 27. 18. the way / or layeth a blocke before hym / what doth it hym / which would put out the eyes of them that see their way already? I haue shewed / and the matter is playne / that the Lorde deuyded nationall churches / into parishes and congrega­tions: so that if S. Paule haue not the word of parishe / yet hee hath the thing. And those that haue redde storyes / know that dioiceris (which we call a Dio­cese / and which contayneth with vs numbers of parishes) was at the first taken to be the same that parishe is / and vsed a great while before Denys was borne / or monkery begotten.

And as for Coemeteria or Churchyardes / if you meane those places that lye nexte rounde about the churches / as they came in with the monke / they mighte well haue gone out with him / for any profite eyther to the church / or common wealth cometh by them. But if you meane as the Greeke word (which is there vsed) signifieth / a fitte place where the bodyes of men sleepe / and are buried / at­tending the tyme of their rising vp agayne in the last and generall day of iudge­ment / then these churchyardes were in the time of the law / and in the primitiue church and at all times / when there was any outwarde pollicie of the churche / and especially when the church had quietnesse and peace / that it might without daunger * bury their deade in some certen conuenient place thereunto appoynted / Luk. 7. 12. Eus. 7. lib. 13. which was for feare of the infection commonly (as it may be gathered) in the field [Page 70] and out of the towne / vnto the which vse & custome (if it myght be done conueni­ently) it were well that we were restored / both because it is more safe for the preseruation of the townes and cities in their health / as also for that through the superstition whiche hath beene of being buryed rather in the church / then in the churche yarde / in the chauncell rather then in the church / nearer the high altare then further of / the remnantes whereof are in a great number of mens heartes yet / which might much be helped by the bringing in of that custome agayne / of burying the deade in some honest place out of the towne therto appoynted.

To the next sections in the. 52. and. 53. pages.

IF you shoulde begette / and be a father of many bookes / and all your children like their eldest brother / you woulde (without better aduise) shake manye groundes of our religion. For heere agayne you wyshe that all pastors were able to teache / but that being vnpossible (as the estate is nowe) you are content with pastors or ministers that can doe nothing but reade. You through out your whole booke make thys a maruellous good estate / and alwayes turne the best side outwarde / and when men goe about to vrge the deformities thereof / to the ende they mighte be remedyed / then you lay open the shame and nakednesse of it / and make it greater then it is in deede. For as I haue shewed before / the churche standeth not so muche in neede of youre reading ministers / as you would make the worlde beleeue. And althoughe it be a great deformitie and sore plage of the church which you heere speake of and confesse at vnwares / yet you will let no man come neare to heale it. There be some make a gayne by sores / and sore legges / and therefore they haue a medicine to keepe their woundes alwayes greene / that they shoulde not heale.

I hope you do not of purpose keepe the churche in this estate / but thys I dare say / that the cheefe of your gaine and of your honour consisteth and is groun­ded in the ruines of the church / and therefore I desire you to looke vnto it.

But what if the estate of the churche be such as you speake of / that it will skarce yelde three preaching pastors and bishops in some diocesse / may you there­fore make reading ministers? In deede if the Apostle had made this a counsell only / and no commaundement / that pastors of churches should be able to teache / then your saying might haue bene borne.

But seeing that S. Paule hathe commaunded expressedly / that he should 1. Tim. 3. 2. Tit. 1. 9. bee able to teache / and to conuince the gaynesayers / I woulde learne of you gladly / what necessitie there is whiche can cause a man to breake the morall law of God / to bring in a tradytion of man. You maye as well breake any other com­maundement of God for necessyties sake / as breake thys / being comprehended in the first table.

And to say that these that can only read / must be tolerated in the churche as ministers / is to saye / because you can haue no pastors in the churches / you will haue idolles. For so will I not doubt to call them / although through ignoraunce of that which they do / some may be good men. But yet in respect of the place that they occupy / they are idolles / for they stande for that / and make shew of that / which they are not / and admit you them as often as you will / the Lord pronoun­ceth that they shall be no ministers to him / which haue Ozee. 4. 6. no knowledge.

But let vs heare your reason / there muste bee reading in the churche / therefore there must bee ministers whiche can doe nothing else. Then we may reason thus to. There must be breaking of bread / and distributing of the cuppe in the church / and pouring on water / therefore whosoeuer is able to breake a loafe of bread / or to lift a cup of wyne / or to poure on water on the body of the childe / may be made a minister.

And did you neuer reade that there were readers in the church / when there were no reading ministers? but of reading of the scriptures and prayers in the church / there will be a fitter place to speake afterwarde where it shall be shewed / how vniustly you surmise these thinges of them.

Touching Homilies shall be spoken more hereafter / where further occasion is geuen. I doe not vse to maintayne the places which are quoted / althoughe they be truely alleaged for the causes which I haue before mentioned / but yet I can not but speake of this place of S. Luke / for feare of the daunger that may en­sue. 9. Luk. 2. For if thys be a good reason / that the place of S. Luke may not be vsed to proue that preaching is perpetually annexed to the ministerie / because in the same place is made mention of curing of diseases / which is but a temporall thing / and followed the ministerie but for a tyme / then the commaundement of S. Iames Iam. 5. 14. that the Elders of the Churche shoulde praye for those that are sicke / is now no commaundement / because putting on of handes / and annoynting of them / that they myghte recouer theyr healthe / hathe no place / and by thys meanes you will pull from vs many places of the new Testament / as you dyd before of the olde.

What dealing is this / to bring men into suspition of that / which they neuer thought of / as though there were any woorde that sounded to this / that a man should put him selfe into the office of preaching / without the approbation of those men to whome it doth pertayne.

Their complaynt is / that those which are ordayned pastors / and therefore to preach / can not doe it without further licence. As if a man should be charged to doe a thing forthwith / and then he that chargeth hym / bindeth him hande and foote / that he can not doe it / vnles he will lose hym.

The Byshoppes inhable hym to teache / and poynte hym a place to teache in / and yet they will not let hym teache / vnlesse he haue a further licence. If hee be an hereticke or schismatike / or suspected of any suche thing / why is he admit­ted / or being admitted / why is he suffered to be so much as a reader in the church? And because you could not answere thys / therefore you set vp a fansie of youres to confute. And thus you fyght without an aduersary / and you make triumphes / where there is no victory.

They will say vnto you / that not only vnder a godly Magistrate / but not in the time of persecution any man ought to take vpon him any function in the church / vnles he be thereunto called by men / except he haue a wonderfull calling / which is rare / and must be diligently examyned by them which haue it / least vn­der pretence of the spirite of God whome they make author of their calling / it fall out that it be but their own headlong affection that hath thrust them in: so farre they are from the frensic of Anabaptistes / whiche you by a confutation of that / which they neuer affirmed / would seeme to staine them with.

To the section beginning in the latter ende of the. 53. page / vntill the middest of the 62. page.

THe Cappe / the Surplice / and Tippet / are not the greatest matters wee striue for / which notwithstanding hath bene informed to the churches beyond sea / to the ende that the iudgements of some might be the eastyer had against vs. Howbeit we thinke it an attire vnmeete for a minister of the gospel to weare / and the Surplice especially / more then the other two / because suche hurtfull ce­remonies are so muche more daungerous / as they do approche nearer the scruice / or worship of God.

The causes why we are lothe to meddle with them / are not as many are borne in hand / because that we thincke any pollution so to sticke to the thinge [...] [Page 72] them selues / as that the wearing of them had any suche power to pollute & make vncleane the vsers of them: neyther yet only because the papistes haue supersti­tionsly vsed them / but because they hauing beene abhominably abused by them / haue no vse nor profite in those thinges or endes / wherein and whereunto they are now vsed. And further that they are also hurfull / being monuments of idola­trie / whereas to bring them in and establishe them / it behoueth that there shoulde some manyfest profite of them appeare. For it is not enoughe to say it is indiffe­rent in the owne nature / Ergo meete to be done: but as the circumstances of the times and persones and profite or hurt of our brethren do require / or not require / so must it be done / or not be done. For in these thinges which are called indiffe­rent / God will haue the vse of them to be measured / that it be referred first to his glory / then to the profite of others. Now / that they are not profitable and hurt­full / it also may appeare if we consider them by all the kindes of men in y^e realme.

The papistes are eyther stubborne or weake / and in respect of both these / they can not be but hurtfull. The weake I call those that haue made some steppe from poperie to the gospell / and of whome there is good hope that they may bee fully gotten to the gospell / but these are harmed by the vse of these vestimentes / for they take occasion of falling at them / because they thinck that the sacraments gette reuerence by them / and the ministerie is commended by such apparell wea­ring / and thincke that the sacramentes wante some thing of that they shoulde haue / if they be not vsed: whereupon are hearde oftentimes these voyces. I will not communicate vnles he weare a surplice. But this offence and occasion of fal­ling / is confirmed by the vse of these garmentes: therefore in respect of such men / they are hurtfull.

Agayne / although I haue knowledge / and know that the wearing of a sur­plice is lawfull for me / yet an other which hath not knowledge / is by my example edifyed / or strengthned to weare a surplice / whereof he can tell no grounde why he should weare it / and so synneth agaynst his conscience: and for this cause S. Paule concludeth / that that which a man may doe in respect of him selfe / may not [...]. Cor. 8. 10. 13 be done / and is not lawfull to be done / in respect of other.

Agayne for the stubberne papistes / they take heereupon occasion to speake euill of / and to blaspheme the truthe of the gospell / saying / that our religion can not stande by it selfe / vnles it leane vppon the staffe of their ceremonies / and per­swade them selues that those were very well deuised by their Popes / that they that are their ennemyes to their religion / can not be without. And heereuppon they take occasyon to hope that their other trumpery and baggage / will in the ende come in agayne / which causeth them to be more frosen in their wickednesse / and shutte their eares agaynst the truth / which possibly they would heare / if all hope of bringing in of their Popery were cutte off. And let it be obserued that through out the realme there are none that make suche clamoures and ouctryes / and complayntes for these ceremonies / as they / and those that they suborne. They pretend I confesse / the Queenes maiesties Iniunctions / & obediēce vnto them / but who is so blynde as seeth not / that they haue an other meaning. For I ap­peale vnto the consciences of all that know them / whether they doe it for any obe­dience towardes her Maiestie / whose death should be a thousande times better newes vnto them / then her graces marriage.

There are also numbers of those which haue all antichristianitie in such de­testation / that they cannot abide the least scrappe of it / and when they see the mi­nisters weare them / they are greeued in their heartes / and they begin somewhat to feare / least this communicating with the papistes in apparell / shoulde make some way to those which vse them / the easyer to admit other things / when they should be lykewise commaunded. And these brethrens myndes are not to be light­ly greeued / and the ministers if they thinke to profite them / must cut away all oc­casion [Page 73] / whereby they maye haue an euill opinion of them.

Seeing that therfore this kinde of ceremonies in apparel / harden the harts of the papistes / and cause them to be the stiffer in their poperie / hinder the weake from profiting in the knowledge of the gospel / greue the mindes of the godly / are occasion of an euill opinion vnto them of their ministers / we thincke that these ceremonies are to be remoued / as not only not profitable (which they oughte to be) but hurtfull / if not to the ministers them selues that vse them / yet to their people to whome they are commaunded by God to haue regarde vnto / in these thyngs that are indifferent in their owne natures. Nowe I will come to that whych you set downe.

The places alledged by the admonition / wyth others / whych may be cited / howsoeuer you deride them / are notwithstanding probable coniectures / that nei­ther Samuell / nor the apostles / nor our sauioure Christ / did weare any distincte apparell from others / whych liued in their times. For if Samuel being then the 1. Sam. 9. [...]8. seer / had had a seueral apparel / whych was proper to the seers / it is not like that Saule would haue asked of him selfe where hys house was. And if the apostles Mat. 26. 73. had worne a seuerall apparell from the rest / they shoulde not haue bene estemed by so generall and vncerten a note / as of speaking somwhat brodely / or as I may terme it / Northenly / for it had bene a surer note to haue sayd thou art one of hys apostles / because none weareth thys apparell but his apostles / where there was a great number that spake Galilcan like / whych were not of hys apostles / nor disciples neyther. But let these goe. You say our sauioure Christ had a seuerall Iohn. 19. 23. apparell / because he had a coate wythout seame. Assuredly you myghte vse les scornefulnes in rehearsing of other mennes arguments / if for no other cause / yet for thys / that they might take more pitie of youres.

For what an argument is this? Our sauioure Christ did weare an vnder garment / whych coulde not be well parted / but with the spoile or marring of it / therfore he ware a seuerall apparell from the rest. It is true / Ihon Baptist had Math. 3. 4. 2. Reg. 1. 8. a seuerall apparell / and to helpe you / so had Elias / but to thys ende / that bothe by hys vnwonted apparell / and straunge diet whych he vsed of locustes and wilde hony / the extraordinaries of his ministerie might be set forthe / and the people the rather moued to enquire of hys office / whome they saw to vary so much from the common custome of other men. But ministers now haue no suche extraordinarie functions / therfore by that reason of youres / they shuld not be seuered from other men / by any note of apparell. You say you knowe that the cheefe notes of a mini­ster / are doctrine and learning / if you meane that the distinction of apparell must supply the rest / and that that also hath some force to commend their ministery / the prophets and apostles of our sauior Christe / left vs no perfect paterne of a mini­ster / nor no sufficient glas to dres him by / wherof the moste parte neuer vsed any suche seuerall apparell / and none of them haue left any commaundement of it.

For want of store / and to make a long boke / heere is S. Iohns miter re­hearsed thrise in one leafe to the same purpose / and in the same wordes. And be­cause it was not enough that M. Bullinger / and M. Martyr should speake of them / you haue preuented them both / least you shuld haue semed to haue brought nothing. If this be not Coleworts twise sodden / I can not tell what is.

You aske whether the christian magistrate may enioyne a seuerall kinde of apparell to the ministers. Either the cause is too weake whych you defende / or else it hath gotten an euill patron / whych would so gladly shift it / and chaunge it with an other. For this is an other question which you speake of. For although that be graunted vnto you / whych you demaunde / yet you can not conclude your cause. For all be it the magistrate may commaunde a seuerall apparell / yet it fo­loweth not that he may commaund this kinde of popishe apparell / and therefore what manner of argument is this of youres / the magistrate maye commaunde a [Page 74] seuerall apparell / therfore he may commaunde this. The colledge walles will tell you / that a man can not conclude from the whole to the parte affirmatiuely. So you see I might let you fish / and catch nothing / but I am neyther afrayde / nor ashamed / to tell you the truth of that you aske / so farreforth at least as I am per­swaded. I thincke therefore it may be such a kinde of apparell / as the magistrate commaunding it / the minister may refuse it / and such it may be / as he may not re­fuse it. But whatsoeuer apparell it be / this commaundement can not be without some iniury done to the minister. For seeing that the magistrate doth allow of him / as of a wise / learned / and discrete man / and trusteth him with the gouerne­ment of his people in matters betwene God and them / it were somewhat harde not to trust him with the appoynting of his owne apparell / and he is probably to be supposed that he hath discretion to weare his owne geare comely / and in order / that is able to teach others / how they should weare theirs? and that he should be able to doe that by his wisdome / and learning / that others do without learning and great store of wisedome / & that he should keepe order and decencie in apparel / which hath learned in the schole of Christ / which they doe that had neuer other scholemaster / then common sense and reason? And if any minister be founde to fault / in going either dissolutely / or to exquisitely and delicately / then the Magi­strate may punishe him according to the disorder wherein he faulteth.

And whereas you would proue that it may be done with the ministers / as it is done with Iudges / sergeants / Aldermen and Sheriffes / the case is not like. For as for these which be in office / their robes and gownes may as their maces & swordes / somewhat helpe to set forth the maiestie and moderate pompe which is meete for the offices of iustice which they execute / and consequently to helpe to strike a profitable feare into their heartes which are vnderneath them / which hath / nor can haue no place in the minister / whose authoritie and power / as it is not outwarde / so can it not / nor ought not to borow any credite of these externall shewes. And the Magistrate / or the Citie / may seeke some honor of the citizens / mustering as it were by numbers in one liuerie / which ought not to be loked for at the ministers hand / because he honoureth and serueth the magistrate an other way / nor can not also / considering that they are scattered through all the land in e­uery towne one / or not so many / as being put in one liuery / would make any great shew to the honor & commendation of the towne or citie where they remaine.

And so you see your question answered / whereby appeareth they are sub­iectes as other are / and to obay also sometimes / where the commaundement is not geuen vpon good grounds. The place of Theodoret cited of M. Bullinger / maketh mention of a golden cope / and that vsed by byshops of Ierusalem / and solde by Cyrill a good bishop / whereby he declared sufficiently his misliking of such garments in the ministerie of the sacramentes. In the place the which hee citeth out of Socrates / there is one Sycinius an Nouatian bishop which is sayd to haue worne white apparell / and therefore is reprehended as for to muche exquisitenesse & finenesse of apparell / & the B. of Duresine / in a letter he wrote / alledgeth the same place agaynst the surplice. A man would hardly beleue that maister Bullinger shoulde vse these places to proue a distinction of apparell a­mongst the ministers. We are not ignorant but that a cloke hath bene vsed of the ministers in theyr seruice / but that was no seuerall apparell of the ministers / but common to all the Christians / which with change of their religion / changed also their apparell / as appeareth manifestly in Tertullian de pallio.

As for the Petalum that S. Iohn ware / I see not how it can bee proued / to be like a bishops miter. For the cap / that S. Cyprian gaue the executioner / argueth rather that it was y^e commō apparell which was customably worne / for else it would not haue done him so much good. As for his vpper garment which hee gaue to hys deacon / it was a token of his good will / which he would leaue [Page 75] with him / as the practise hath bene seene with vs / and proueth nothing that it was any seuerall apparell. As for the white linnen garment which he suffered in / it can not seme strange vnto vs which haue sene the holy martyrs of the Lord executed in Smithfield and other places. And it is not to be thought that S. Cyprian had so small iudgement / that lyuing in the time of persecution / he would by wearing of some notable apparell from the rest / as it weare betray him selfe into the handes of his enemies / vnles all the christians had done so too for clearer and more open profession of theyr fayth / and greater detestation of the contrary religion: as Tertullian and the christians in his time did / by the wearing of a cloke / which reason may be also alledged of the Petalum of S. Iohn. It is true 60. homil. ad popul. Antiod [...]. Chrysostome maketh mention of a white garment / but not in commendation of it / but rather to the contrary. For he sheweth that the dignitie of their ministerie / their safetie and crowne was in taking heede / that none vnmeete were admitted to the Lordes supper / not in going about the church with a white garment. And it is easely to be seene by * Salomon in his Ecclesiastes / that to weare a white Eccle. 9. 8. garment / was greatly estemed in the East partes / and was ordinarie to those that were in any estimation / as the wearing of blacke with vs: and therfore was no seuerall apparell for the ministers / or for to execute their ministerie in.

The reasons that M. Peter Martyr vseth / are the same before / and how he hath also condemned them / it shall appeare / with M. Bucers iudgement of these thinges in the ende of the booke.

As for Eustathius his depriuation / because he did not weare apparel meete for a minister / it maketh not to this purpose one whit. For I haue shewed that if any minister go like a ruffian or swashe buckler / or in the brauerie of a courtier / that it is meete he should be punished according to the quaintitie of the fault. And that it is so to be vnderstāded / it appeareth manifestly by the councell of Gangris / which did therfore confirme the same deposing / because he ware a stranger appa­rell / & the habite of a Philosopher / & caused all his fellowes to do so. Therfore I maruell what you meane to alledge this place. It is also alledged of * Nicepho­rus Lib. 9, c. 45. / in neither of y^e places there is any Eustathius / y^e sonne of Eustathius / but of Eulabius / or as Nicephorus readeth Eulalius. And therfore your conclusion is both vntrue & vncertaine / that since the Apostles times there hath bene a distinct & seuerall apparell of the ministers from the rest. The matter lyeth not in that whether these things were first muented by papistes / or being deuised of others / were after taken by the papists / but y^e matter standeth in this / that they haue bene vsed of the papists as notes & markes and sacraments of their abhominations.

As for Augustin hys place / it is to be vnderstanded of such things as haue a necessary vse / and therefore may not be taken away from vs by the superstition of men. For so we might also be depriued of the sunne / which is as it were the life of the world / because the sinme hath bene worshipped. But that S. Augustin August. Tom. 10. de verbis domini in Matheum ser­mone. 6. did not like of this kinde of retayning ceremonies / it may * appeare. Do you aske sayth he / how the Paganes may be wonne / how they may be brought to saluati­on / forsake their solemnities / let goe their toyes / and then if they gree not vnto our truth / let them be ashamed of their fewnesse / whereby he sheweth / that the nea­rest way to gaine the papistes / is to forsake their Ceremonies. And yet I would be loth to say eyther with you / or with Augustin / that it is not lawfull for a man / to make of a popishe surplice / a shirt for him selfe / or to take the gold of a cope which he hath bought / & conuert it to his priuate vse. And herein we do nothing disagree with S. Augustin / which graunt that surplices / and copes / and rippets / and cappes / may be applyed to a good vse / eyther common or priuate / as they wil best serue / but wee deny that that vse is in distinguishing eyther the ministers from other men / or the ministers executing their ecclesiasticall function from themselues / when they doe not exercise that office.

To all these things that M. Martyr reckeneth vp of reuenues / and wa­ges / verses / wine / bread / oyle / water / whych being consecrated vnto Idols / are well vsed / Tertullian answeareth in the same boke / whereout a numbre of these are taken: when he sayth / that we ought to admit a participation of those things / whych bring either a necessity or profite in the vse of them / but we deny that these things thus vsed / are either necessary or profitable. And therfore in stead of tem­ples / tithes / wine. &c. if you woulde haue matched the surplice well / you shoulde haue sayd sensors / tapers / holy bread / holy water / and such like. It is true / that M. Bucer sayeth / that it is not in the nature of any creature to be a note of An­tichrist / but yet followeth not therof / that the creature that hathe bene accidental­ly / & through abuse applied to idolatry / may be forthwith vsed as we shall thinke good. For neither the idolles of the Gentiles / nor the corruptions of those which offered / had power to make the beefe or mutton that was offered / no good and holesome meate for the sustenaunce of man / neither cause that a Christian man coulde not eate them as beefe and mutton / but yet either to eate it at the table of idolles before them / or else priuately in hys owne house / when there was anye weake by / that thoughte it an abhominable thing / was not lawfull: and yet the meate neuertheles the good creature of God / and whych might be receiued wyth thankes giuing / so the abuse of the surplice and coape. &c. can not cause / but that they may be vsed as clothe and silke.

And wheras he sayeth that they are chaunged / and made of notes of Anti­christianitie / markes of Christianitie / I say that they can not be chaunged so by any decree or commaundement / for as much as notwithstanding that profession of chaunge / the heartes of men vnto whych euery man must haue regarde vnto / are not chaunged. For not so soone as the magistrate will saye that these thyngs shall be from henceforthe vsed as things indifferent / forthwyth men doe vse them so / but those only vse them so / whych haue knowledge / both the ignorant and the weake take them stil otherwise. The rest of those things whych M. Bucer / and those whych M. Bullinger and Gualter bring / are all of that sorte / wherevnto answere is made.

Only this they adde / that if the people do abuse and peruert these ceremo­nies / they oughte to be better instructed / whych is a counsell not so conuenient / that the ministers and pastors whych haue so many necessary poynts to bestowe their time on / and to informe the people of / should be driuen to cutte of their time appoynted thereto / to teache them not to abuse these things / which if they vse ne­uer so well / they can gaine nothing / and to take heede that they hurte not them selues at those things / whych in their best estate do no good / especially when one sermon of the taking of them away ioyned wyth authoritie to execute it / may do more good then a thousand sermons wythout authoritie.

Besides that / it is absurde / that ceremonies whych ought to be helpers to promote the doctrine / shoulde become lets and hinderances / whilest the minister is occupied in teaching / to beware of the abuse of them / and of superstition. And it is as muche as if one should be set to watche a childe all day long / least he hurt him selfe wyth the knife / when as by taking away the knife quite from hym / the daunger is auoided / and the seruice of the man better employed. And so it folow­eth / that althoughe the churche may appoynt ceremonies and rites / yet it can not appoynte these that haue great incommoditye / and no commoditie / great offence and no edifying.

And althoughe they haue all these properties whych you recite / yet if they be not to edifying / if not to God hys glorye / if not comely and agreeable to the simplicitie of the gospell of Christe crucified / they may not be established. Con­cerning your distinction / wherby you lesten the idolatrie of the papistes / I haue shewed the vanitie thereof.

But of thys matter you say you will speake againe. In deede so you doe / and againe / wherin you confound the memorie and vnderstanding of the reader / and declare your selfe not onlye ignorante of Aristotles rule of katholou proton (whych is to speake of one thyng generally and once for all) but euen to be voide of that order whych men haue commonly by the naturall logicke of reason. Nei­ther can you excuse your selfe in saying that the Admonition geueth you so often times occasion to speake of them / and so to lay the faulte vpon it / for that it being wrytten by diuers persons of the same matters / whereof one knewe not of an o­thers doing / can not be blamed for the repetition of one thing twise / when as you can not escape blame whych might haue gathered easely into one place / y^• which is sayd of them in diuers. Whych thing / although it be not so easy for me to doe in your booke / as it was for you to doe in theirs / yet I will assay to doe it bothe in thys and in all other poyntes that folowe / not thincking thereby to bring thys treatise of youres to any good order (for that were to cast it new againe / and then you would complaine of your minde peruerted) but that I might remedy this so great disorder as farre as maye be done wythoute chaunging any thyng of that whych you haue set downe.

And if there be any other arguments touching any of these poyntes in other places / whych I haue not gathered togither into one / the fault is in thys / that I could not bestowe so muche time in making a Harmonie of the things which are at so great discorde / and then that whych is left out / shall be answeared in place where I shall finde it. Nowe let vs see M. Doctors deuteron ploun, and second nauigation touching apparell / whether it be any happier / or haue any better suc­ces then the first.

In the. 105. page / M. Doctor to proue the vse of the surplice / to draw out hys booke into some competent volume / boroweth certen places of the examiner / for answere wherevnto / I will referre the reader to that which is answered vn­to the examination / as to a full and sufficient answere wherein I will rest / and when M. Doctor hathe proued that which he sayth / that it is but a childishe ca­uill / he shall then heare further.

In the meane season it is but a slender Replie / to so learned an answere (that proueth bothe oute of other authors / and out of those same whych the exa­miner citeth / that by a white garment is meant a comely apparell / and not slouē ­ly) to say it is but a childishe cauill / whych a D. of Diuinitie / and of. xl. yeares of age can not answer. The place of Ierome vpon the. 44. of Ezechiel / the more it be considered / the more shall appeare the truthe of the answere.

Nowe I wil desire the reader to turne vnto the. 237. 238. 239. 240. 242. pages / to see whether at thys third voyage M. doctor bringeth any better mar­chaundise. Where first he surmiseth an vntruthe / as though the admonition mis­liked of the taking away of the gray Amis / where it sayeth only that there was les cause to take that away / then the surplice. &c. Wherin there is nothing but the truthe sayde / for because that was vsed but in few churches / and but of few also in those few churches: therfore if there were cause to take away that / there was greater to take away the surplice. And to take away the Amis out of the church / and leaue the surplice. &c. is to heale a scratch / and leaue a wound vnhealed.

Nowe whereas you say / that we are alwayes (Ad oppositum) and that if the lawe commaunded straightly / that we shoulde weare none of thys apparell / that then we would weare: if it should be answered againe that you doe Seruire scenae: that is / that you are a time seruer / you see we mighte speake wyth more likelyhoode then you. But we will not take (as you doe) the iudgement of God out of his handes / but will attende paciently the reuelation and discouering of that / whych is nowe hid bothe in you and in vs.

And although you will graunt vs neither learning nor conscience / yet you [Page 78] might aforde vs so muche witte / as that we would not willingly / and of purpose want those commodities of life / whych we might otherwise enioy as wel as you if we had that gift of conformitie whych you haue.

Wheras you say that the accursed things of Iericho / and the oxe that was fed to be sanctified vnto Baall / and the woode consecrated vnto the Idoll / were conuerted to the seruice of the liuing God / when you shall proue that the surplice is so necessary to the seruice of God / as gold / and siluer / and other mettal / and as oxen and woode / wherof the first sort were such / as without the which / the tem­ple could not be builte / the other / suche as were expresly commaunded of God / to be vsed in hys seruice / then I will confesse that this place maketh some thing for you. And yet if your copes / and surplices. &c. shoulde haue suche a purgation by fire / as those metalles had / or euer the Lord would admit them into his treasure house / and shuld be driuen to passe from popery vnto the gospel / by the chimney / the fire would make such wracke wyth them / that they should neede haue better legs / then your arguments / to bring them into the church.

Moreouer / do you not see heere / that you haue not losed the knot / but cutte it. For the authors of the Admonition obiect the place of Esay / and you obiecte 30. Chap. 22. againe / the places of Deuteronomie / and of the Iudges / this is to oppose sword against sworde: in stead that you shuld haue first holden out your buckler / & lat­ched the blow of your aduersary. As for churches / it hath ben answered that they haue a profitable vse / and therefore very euill compared with the surplice / whych beside that it bringeth no profite / hurteth also as is before sayde.

To be short (sayth M. Doctor) when he reciteth me almost a whole side word for word / as he hath cited before / wher he hath had his answere. After this he setteth him selfe to proue that they edifye / and that first by M. Bucers / and M. Martyrs authoritye / and yet in their wordes before alledged / there is not a worde of edifying. If he gather it of their wordes / the answere is already made. Then he bringeth reasons to proue it / whereof in the first he seemeth to reason / that because it is commaunded by a lawfull magistrate / and lawfull authoritye / therfore it edifieth. As though a lawful magistrate doth nothing at any time vn­lawfully / or as thoughe a lawfull and a godly magistrate / dothe not sometimes commaund things / whych are inconuement and vnlawfull. Saule was a law­full magistrate / and did commaund vnlawfull things. Dauid was a lawfull and godly magistrate / and yet there slipt from him commaundementes / whych were neither lawfull / nor godly. But he addeth that it is done for order / and for decen­cie / wythout superstition / or suspition of it. This is that whych is in controuer­sy / and oughte to be proued / and M. Doctor still taketh it as graunted / and still faulteth in the petition of the principle / wherwith he chargeth others.

The second reason is / that they that weare thys apparell / haue edified / and do edify: whych is / as if a man would say / the midwiues whych lied vnto Pha­rao / did much good amongst the Israelites / Ergo, their lying did much good. If Exod. 1. 19. he will say / the comparison is not like / because the one is not sinne in hys owne nature / whereas the other is sinne / then take thys: One that stammereth and stutteth in his tōg / edifieth the people / therfore stammering and stutting / is good to edifie. For what if the Lorde geue hys blessing vnto hys worde / and to other good giftes whych he hath that preacheth and weareth a surplice. &c. Is it to be thought therfore / that he liketh well of the wearing of that apparell? This is to assigne the cause of a thing to that / whych is not only not the cause thereof / but some hinderance also / and s [...]aking of that / wherof it is supposed to be a cause. For a man may rather reason / that for as much as they which preache w^t surplice. &c. edify / (notwithstāding that they therby driue away some / and to other some giue [...]spition of euill. &c.) if they preached wythout wearing any suche thyng / they should edify much more. And yet if a man were assured to gaine a thousande / by [Page 79] doing of that which may offend / or cause to fall one brother / he ought not to do it.

The third reason is / y^t they which consent in wearing the surplices / consent also in all other poynts of doctrine / and they that do not weare it / do not consent / not so much as amongst them selues. If this consent in the poynts of religion be in the surplice / cope. &c. tel vs I beseche you / whether in the matter / or in y^• form / or in what hid and vnknowne quality stādeth it? if it be in that the ministers vse all one apparell / then it is maruell that this being so strong a bond to holde them togither in godly vnitie / that it was neuer commaūded of Christ / nor practised of prophets or apostles / neuer of no other reformed churches. I had thought who­ly / that those things which the lord appoynteth to maintaine & kepe vnitie with / & especially the holy sacramēts of baptisme / & of the lords supper / had ben strong enough to haue first of all knit vs vnto the lord / & therfore also to his doctrine / & then one of vs to an other / & that the dissenting in such a ceremony as a surplice. &c. neither should nor could in those that pertaine vnto God / breake the vnitie of the spirit / whych is boūd wyth the bond of truth. And although there be whych like not this apparell / that thinke otherwise then either their brethren / or then in dede they ought to do / yet a man may finde greater dissent amongst those / whych are vnited in surplice & cope. &c. then there is / amongst those which weare them not / either w^t them selues / or w^t them that weare them. For how many there are that weare surplices / which would be gladder to say a masse / than to heare a ser­mon / let all y^e world iudge. And of those y^• do weare this apparel / & be otherwise wel minded to y^e gospel / are ther not which wil wear y^e surplis / & not y^e cap: other y^e wil weare both cap & surplice / but not the tippet / & yet a third sort / y^e wil weare surplice / cap / & tippet / but not the cope. It hath ben the maner alwayes of wise & learned men / to esteme of things by the causes / & not by the euent / & that especi­ally in matters of religion / for if they shuld be estemed of the euent / who is there which wil not condemne the Israelites battell against Aye / & afterward against Iosua. 8. Iudges. 20. the Beniamites? which notwithstanding / the cause which was Gods wist / and Gods commaundement iustifieth. And therfore in a worde I answere / y^e if there be such consent amongst those which like wel of this apparell / and such iarres a­mongst those that like it not (as M. doctor wold make the world beleue) neither is the wearing of the surplice. &c. cause of y^e consent in them / nor the not wearing cause of the disagrement in the other. But as our knowledge & loue is vnperfect here in this world / so is our agrement & consent of iudgemēt vnperfect. And yet all these harde speaches of yours / or vncharitable suspitions of papisme / anabap­tisme / catharisine / donatisme. &c. wherby you do as much (as lieth in you) to cut vs cleane of from you / shal not be able so to estrange vs or seperate vs from you / but that we wil by gods grace hold / what so euer you hold well / & kepe that vni­tie of spirit / which is the bond of truth / euē with you M. doctor / whom we sup­pose as appeareth by this your boke / to haue set your selfe further from vs / then numbers of those / which although they be content to receiue the apparel / & beare w^t things / yet wold haue ben loth to haue set downe y^e against the sinceritie of the gospel / & hinderance of reformation / which you haue done. The white apparell / which is a note & true representation of the glory & purenes in the angels / shuld Act. 1. 10. be a lying signe / & pretēce of y^t which is not in y^e ministers / which are miserable / & sinful men. And our sauior Christ / which was the minister of God / & pure from sin / & therfore metest to weare y^e marke of purenes / vsed no such kinde of weede / sauing only for y^e smal time / wherin he wold geue to his disciples in the mount / a tast of that glory which he shuld enioy for euer / & they with him: where / for the time his apparel appeared as white as snow. And if it be mete that the ministers Mark. 9. 3. shuld represent the angels in their apparel / it is much more mete / that they shuld haue a paire of wings as the angels are described to haue / to put them in remē ­brance Isay. 6. 2. of their readines & quicknes to execute their office / which may and ought to be in them / then to weare white apparell / whych is a token of purenes from [Page 80] sinne and infection / and of a glorye whych neither they haue / nor can haue / nor ought so much as to desire to haue / as long as they be in thys world.

And whereas the maintainers of this apparell / haue for their greatest de­fence / that it is a thyng meere ciuill: to let passe / that they confounde Ecclesiasti­call orders wyth ciuill (whych they can no more iustly do / then to confounde the church wyth the common wealth) I say to let that pas / they do by thys meanes not only make it an Ecclesiastical ceremonie / but also a matter of conscience. For if so be that the white apparell of the minister haue any force / either to moue the people / or the minister vnto greater purenes / or to any other godlynes whatsoe­uer / then it is that whych ought to be commaunded / and to be obeyed of necessi­ty / and to be retained / althoughe the contrarye were forbidden. And then also if there be a vertue in a white garment / and the signification therof be so strong to worke godlynes / it were meete that order were taken / that the whitest clothe should be bought / that it should be often (at the least euery weeke once) washed by a very good launder / and wyth sope: for if the white helpe / more white hel­peth more / and that whych is moste white / helpeth moste of all to godlynes. Al­though the church haue authoritye to make ceremonies (so they be according to the rules before recited of Gods glory / and profiting the congregation) I coulde for all that neuer yet learne / that it had power to giue newe significations / as it were to institute newe sacramentes. And by this meanes is taken cleane awaye from vs / the holde whych we haue against the papistes / whereby (against all the goodly shewes whych they make by the coloure of these significations) we say / that the word of God / and the sacramentes / of baptisme / and of the supper of the Lord / are sufficient to teache / to admonishe / and to put vs in remembrance of all duetye whatsoeuer. So we are nowe come to the superstition of the Grecians / for as they will haue neyther grauen / nor carued image in their Churches / but painted / so we wil nether haue grauen / nor carued / nor painted / but wouē. And truely I see no cause / why we may not haue as wel holy water & holy bread / if this reason whych is here / be good: for I am sure y^e significations of them are as gloryous as this of the surplice / and call to remembraunce as necessarye things. And if it be sayde / that it maye not be / least the number of ceremonies shoulde be to too great / it may be easely answeared / that these whych we haue may be taken away / and those set in place of them. And therefore althoughe the surplice haue a blacke spot / when it is whitest / yet is it not so blacke as you make it wyth your white significations / nor the cause so euill as you defend it. If you pres me with M. Martyrs / and M. Bucers authoritye / I first say they were men / & there­fore (although otherwise very watchfull) yet such as slept some times. And then I appeale from their Apocryphas / vnto their knowne wrytings / and from their priuate letters / vnto their publike recordes. M. Doctor proceedeth to proue that they are signes and shewes of good / and not of euill / as the authors of the admo­nition alleage. To the proufe wherof / although (according to his manner) he re­peateth diuers things before alleaged / yet the summe of all he hath comprehended in an argument / whych is / that for so muche as the ministers are good whych weare them / therfore they are also good: and because the ministers whereof the apparell are notes / and markes be good: therefore those be good notes and good markes: so the reason is they are notes / and notes of good ministers / therefore they be good notes of the ministers. So I will proue the names of idolles / to be fit and conuenient names for good men to be called by. Beltshaser / Shaddrake / Daniel. 1. 7. Misacke / and Abed-nego were names of Daniell and hys three companions / and they were the names of good men / therefore they are good names of men. And so the names of the Babylonian Idols / are by thys reason of M. Doctor / iustified to be good names. Again / y^e golden calfe was a signe. Also it was a signe of the true God: therefore it was a true signe of God. Concerning the notes of Exod. 32. 4. [Page 81] ciuill professions / and what difference is betweene those and thys cause / I haue spoken before.

You say the cause of discorde is not in the apparell / but in the mindes of men. You meane I am sure / those that refuse the apparell / but if you make them authors of discord / because they consent not wyth you in wearing / do you not see it is as soone sayde / that you are the causers of discorde / because you doe not con­sent wyth those whych were not? for as there should be vnitie in that poynte / if all did weare that apparell / so should there be / if all did weare none of it. It is a very vnequall comparison that you compare the vse of thys apparell / wyth the vse of wine / and of a sworde / whych are profitable and necessary / but it is more intollerable / that you match it wyth the word of God. I could throwe it as farre downe / as you lifte it vp / but I will not doe so. Thys only I will saye / if there were no harme in it / and that it were also profitable / yet for as much as it is not commaunded of God expresly / but a thing (as you say) indifferent / and notwith­standing is cause of so many incommodities / and so abused (as I haue before de­clared) it ought to be sufficient reason to abolish them: seing that the brasen ser­pent Nom. 21. 8. 9. 2. Reg. 18. 4. whych was instituted of the Lorde him selfe / and contained a profitable re­membrance of the wonderfull benefite of God towardes hys people was beaten to pouder / when as it began to be an occasion of falling vnto the children of Is­rael: and seeing that S. Paule after the loue feastes (whych were kepte at the administration of the Lords supper / and were meanes to nourishe loue amongst 1. Cor. 11. 22. the churches) were abused & drawne to an other vse thē they were first ordained, did vtterly take them away / & commaund that they shuld not be vsed any more.

The rest of that whych followeth in this matter / is nothing else / but either that whych hath bene often times repeated / or else reprochefull words / or vniust accusations of contempt of magistrates / wythout any proufe at all / and therfore are suche / as eyther are answered / or whych I will not voutchsafe to answere / especially seeing that I meane not to giue reproche for reproche / and reuiling for reuiling: and seeing that I haue before protested of our humble submission / and louing feare or reuerence / whych we beare to the Prince / and those whych are appoynted magistrates vnderneathe her.

And therfore I will conclude / that for so muche as the ceremonies of An­tichristianitie / are not / nor can not be / the fittest to sette forthe the gospell / and for that they are occasions of fall to some / of hinderance to other some / of griefe and alienation of mindes vnto others (the contrary of all which / ought to be conside­red in establishing of things indifferent in the churche) therefore neyther is thys apparell fittest for the minister of the gospell / and if it were / yet considering the incommodities that come of the vse of it / it should be remoued.

To the next section in the. 62. and. 63. pages.

YOu know they allow studying for sermones / and amplifying and expoūding of the scriptures / & why then do you aske? But by thys question you would haue your reader thinke / or at the least haue the authors of the Admonition in suspition / that they liked not of study for sermones. God make vs more care­full of the good name of our brethren / then by such light and vngrounded suspiti­ons / nay wythoute any suspition / nay contrary to that whych is daily seene and harde / to raise vp suche slaunderous reportes of them. But Homilies are smal­ly beholding vnto you / whych to proue that they may be red in the churche / al­ledge that Augustin and Chrysostome made sermones in their churches: for that whych we call a sermon / they called of the Greke worde an Homilie / so that the argument is / that Augustine and Chrysostome preached sermons / or Homilies in their churches / therefore we may read homilies in oures. But peraduenture you haue some better thing to say for them afterward.

To the section beginning in the latter end of the. 63. page.

A Hundreth poundes by yeare is taken of some benefice / for whych foure ser­mons only are preached / and those some times by an other. If this be more painefull then gainefull / it is because the horsse Leche hathe two daughters / Pro. 30. 15. giue / giue. &c. And I can not see howe they can be more glorious / vnles the pa­lace were turned into a courte / and their chaire into a throne. There are diuers places that God hath blessed wyth peace / where the ministers take more paine / and haue les gaine / and whych make * les noyse when they goe in the streates. Math. 12. 19. We haue amongste vs whych haue had Byshopprickes offered / and as thyngs vnmeete for a minister of the Gospell / haue refused them. God be praysed / the Sunne shineth not so hotte in this Countrey nowe / that you neede to complaine of any great heate / and if you feele any heate / you haue better shade then Ionas had by hys gourde. Ionas. 4. 6.

To the next section beginning at the. 64. page / and holding on vntill the. 77. pages.

OF these offices some thing hath bene spoken before / where it hath bene pro­ued out of the words of Christ / that neither the names / nor offices of Arch­bishop / or Archdeacons doe agree to the ministerie of the gospell. Nowe as M. Doctor bestoweth great cost heere / and trauaile in digging about them / and laying (as it were) newe earthe to their rootes / that they being halfe deade / if it were possible / myghte be recouered and quickened againe / so I (because these trees mount vp so highe / and spreade their boughes and armes so brode / that for the colde shade of them nothing can growe / and thriue by them) will before I come to answere these things that are heere alledged / set downe certaine reasons (as it were instruments) to take away the superfluous loppe and spread of these immoderate offices.

And for the names first / I desire the reader that we be not thought studi­ous of contention / because we striue about the name of Archbyshop. &c. for thys is not to striue about words / vnles it be counted a strife of wordes / which is ta­ken for the maintenance of the worde of God / as it hathe before appeared out of the Euangelists. Then it must be remembred whych Aristotle sayeth very well in hys Elenches / that ta onomata ton pragmaton mimemata esti: whych is / that names are imitations / or as it were expres images of the things whereof they are names / and doe for the most part bring to hym that heareth them / knowledge of the things that are signified by them. Howsoeuer the thing be it selfe / yet of­tentimes it is supposed to be as the name pretendeth / and therevpon followeth / that a man may be easely deceiued / when the names doe not answer to the things wherof they are names. There may be / I graunte / a freer and more licentious vse of names / but that licence is more tollerable in any thing / rather then in mat­ters of the church and saluation. And if there be some cases / wherin names that are not so proper / may be borne with / yet are there also whych are intollerable. As who can abide that a minister of the gospell / should be called by the name of a Leuite / or sacrificer / onles it be he whych woulde not care muche / if the remem­brance of the death / and resurrection of our sauioure Christ were plucked out of hys minde? Againe / it is vnlawfull for any man to take vpon him those titles which are proper to our sauioure Christ: but the title of Archbyshop is only pro­per to our sauioure Christe / therefore no man may take that vnto hym. That it 1. Epist. 5. 4. Heb. 13. 20. Acts. 3. 15. Acts. 5. 31. Heb. 12. 2. is proper to oure sauioure Christe / appeareth by that whych S. Peter sayeth / where he calleth him archipoimena: whych is archshepheard or archbishop / for bishop & shepheard are all one. And in the Hebrues where he is called the great shepheard of the sheepe / and in the Actes / and * Hebrues / archleader of lyfe and [Page 83] of saluation / whych titles are neuer found to be giuen vnto any / but vnto our sa­uioure Christe / and are proper titles of hys mediation / and therefore can not be wythout bolde presumption applied vnto any mortall man.

And it any man will reply and say / that it is not sayd that our sauior Christ is only archbishop. I answer that he is not only sayd the head / and yet notwith­standing there is no more heads of the churche but he. And if it be further sayde that these archbyshops are but vnder / and as it were subordinate archbyshops / I say that a man may as wel say that men may be also vnder heads of y^e church / whych is the same whych is alledged for the pope. Whych thing is not only true in those wordes whych doe signify / and set vnlawfull things before our eyes / but euen in those names also whych hauing no corruption in their owne nature / yet throughe the corrupt vse of men / haue as it were gotten suche a tacke of that cor­ruption / that the vse of them can not be wythout offence.

In the primitiue church / the name of a Pope was honest / and was all one Tertull lib. de pudicitia. Cypr. lib. 2. Epist. 7. Ierome in hys Epistles to Augustin. wyth the name of a good pastor / but nowe by the ambition of the man of Rome / it is so defiled / that euery good man shaketh at the very mention of it.

The name of a Tyranne / was first honourable / and the same with a king / and yet through cruelty / and vniust rule of certaine / it is become now so hatefull / that no vpright and iust dealing Prince / none that gouerneth wyth equitye / and to the commodity of hys subiects / would beare to be called Tyranne: wherby it may appeare / that it is not for nought that we do stande of these names. Nowe if the names ought to be odious / being both horribly abused / and also forbidden by our sauioure Christe / the thyngs them selues must be in greater hatred / the vn­lawfulnes wherof may thus appeare.

First of all / the ministery is by the word of God / and heauenly / and not left to the will of men to deuise at their pleasure / as appeareth by that whych is no­ted of s. Iohn / wher the Phariseis cōming to s. Iohn Baptist / after that he had denied to be either Christ / or Elias / or another Prophet / conclude / if y^u be neither Iohn. 1. 25. Christ / nor Elias / nor of the Prophets / why baptisest thou? whych had bene no good argument / if s. Iohn might haue bene of some other function / then of those whych were ordinarie in the churche / and instituted of God. And therefore S. Iohn to establish his singular and extraordinary function / alledgeth the word of God / wherby appeareth / that as it was not lawfull to bring in any strange doc­trine / so was it not lawfull to teache the true doctrine / vnder the name of any o­ther function then was instituted by God.

Let the whole practise of the churche vnder the lawe / be loked vpon / and it shall not be founde that any other Ecclesiasticall ministery was appoynted / then those orders of highe priest / and priests / and Leuites. &c. whych were appoynted by the law of God / & if there were any raised extraordinarily / the same had their calling confirmed from heauen / either by signes or miracles / or by plaine & cleare testimonies of the mouthe of God / or by extraordinarye exciting and mouings of the spirite of God. So that it appeareth that the ministerie of the gospell / and the functions thereof / ought to be from heauen / and of God / and not inuented by the braine of men: from heauen / I say / and heauenly / because althoughe it be execu­ted by earthly men / & the ministers also are chosen by men like vnto themselues / yet because it is done by the word and institution of God / that hath not only or­dained that the word should be preached / but hathe ordained also in what order / and by whome it should be preached / it may well be accounted to come from hea­uen / and from God.

Seeing therefore / that these functions of the Archbishop and Archdeacon are not in the word of God / it foloweth that they are of the earth / & so can do no good / but much harme in the church. And if any man will say y^e we do the church great iniurye / because we doe tie her to a certaine nomber of orders of ministers / [Page 84] as it were to a stake / so that she may not deuise new functions / I say that bothe the churche and Christ doth accuse him againe. Christ estemeth him selfe to haue iniurie / because that by thys meanes he is imagined not to haue bene careful / and prouident enough for hys church / in that he hath left the ministerie / wherein doth consist the life of the church (being that wherby it is begottē) so raw and vnper­fect / y^t by permitting of it to the ordering of men / there is a great danger of error / whych he might haue set without all daunger / by a word or two speaking.

The churche of the other side riseth against hym / for that he maketh Christ les carefull for her / then he was for that vnder the lawe. For tell me in the whole volume of the Testament is there any kinde or degre of ministerie / wherof God is not the certen and expres author? was there euer any man (I except Iero­boam and suche prophane men) either so holy / or so wise / or of suche great know­ledge / that euer did so muche as dreame of instituting of a newe ministerie? After the long wandring of the Arke in the wildernesse / when it came to be placed in Ierusalem / tell me if any besides the Leuites and Priestes / the ordinarie mini­sters / and the Prophets whych were immediatly stirred vp of God / were found to haue ordained any office or title / whych was not commaunded / or whether there was at any time any thing added / or enioyned to those offices of priesthode and Leuiteship / whych was not by the lawe prescribed.

All men knowe that the Arke of Noah / was a figure of the church. Noah Gen. 6. 14. 22. was both a wise and a godly man / yet what doth the Lord leaue to his wisdom / when as he appoynteth the matter / the forme / the length / the bredth / the heigth / the woode / the kinde and sorte of woode.

In the tabernacle the church is yet more expressedly shewed forth / Moses that was the ouerseer of the worke / was a wise and a godly man / the artificers Exod. 26. Exod. 31. 3. 6. that wroughte it / Bezalael / and Aholiab / most cunning workemen / and yet ob­serue / howe the Lorde leaueth nothing to their will / but telleth not onlye of the boordes / of the curtaines / of the apparell / but also of the barres / of the rings / of the strings / of the hookes / of the besomes / of the snuffers / and of the thyngs / Exo. 39. 42. the matter / and the forme.

Let vs come to the temple / whych as it was more neare the time of Christ / so it dothe more liuely expres the churche of God / whych nowe is. Salomon the wisest man that euer was or shall be / dothe nothing in it / neyther for the temple 1. Reg. 3. 12. 1. Chro. 28. 11. &c. 19. 1. Reg. 6. 2. Chro. 3. 4. 5. Ezech. 40. nor for the vesselles of the temple / nor for the beautie of it / but according to the forme that was enioyned hym / as appeareth in the Kings / and Chronicles. And in the restoring of that temple / Ezechiel is witnes / howe the Angell by the com­maundement of God doth parte by parte / appoynt all to be done bothe in the tem­ple and in the furniture thereof.

Nowe if the holy ghoste in Figures and Tropes dothe so carefully / and as a man may speake / curiously comprehende all things: in the truthe it selfe / howe muche more is it to be thought that he hath performed this? If in the shadowes / howe muche more in the body / if he haue done this in earthly things / and which are pearished / how is it to be thought that he hath not performed it in heauenly / and those whych abide for euer? And then tell me what are those times / of which it was sayd / the Messias when he commeth / will tell vs all? Is it a like thyng Iohn. 4. 25. that he whych did not only appoynt the temple and the tabernacle / but the orna­ments of them / woulde not only neglecte the ornamentes of the churche / but also that / wythout the whych (as we are borne in hand) it can not long stande? shall we thinke that he which remembred the barres there / hathe forgotten the pillers heere? or he that there remembred the pinnes / did heere forget the master buil­ders? shoulde he there remember the besomes / and heere forget Archbyshops / if any had bene needefull? there make mention of the snuffers to purge the lights / and heere passe by the lightes them selues? [Page 85] And to conclude / that he shoulde make mention there of the moates / and heere say nothing of the beames? there recken vp the gnattes / heere keepe silence of the Camels? what is this else / but that which Aristotle sayth / ta mikra horan kai ta megala paroran: that is / to looke to small things / and not to looke to great / which if it can not fall into the Lorde / let it be a shame to say that the cheefe piller and vpholder of the churche / is not expressed in the scripture / nor can not bee con­cluded of it.

Moreouer those ministeries without the which the churche is fully buil­ded / and brought to perfection and complete vnitie / are not to be retayned in the churche: but with out the ministeries of Archbishop. &c. the churche maye bee fully builded and broughte to perfection / therefore these ministeries are not to be retayned.

And that without these ministeries the Churche may be complete / it ap­peareth by that which is in the Ephesians / where it is sayde / that Christe gaue 4. Eph. 11. 12. some Apostles / some Prophetes / some Euangelistes / some pastors and Doc­tors / to the restoring of the sayntes vnto the worke of the ministerie / vntill wee all come to the vnitie of fayth / and of the knowledge of the sonne of God / and vn­to a perfect man.

The learned wryters haue thus reasoned agaynste the Pope: that for so muche as Apostles / Prophetes. &c. are sufficient for the building of the churche / therefore there ought to be no Pope. The argument and necessitie of the conclu­sion is as strong agaynst the Archbishoppe / and all one. For by the same reason that the Pope is cast away as a superfluous thing / for that these offyces are able to make perfect the Churche / is the Archbishoppe likewise throwne out of the Churche / as a knobbe or some lumpe of fleshe / which being no member of the bo­dy / doth both burden it and disfigure it. And as they say that God gaue no Pope to his church / therefore the Pope can doe no good / so we may well say / God gaue no Archbishop to his church / therefore the Archbishop can do no good.

Neyther dyd God geue any archdeacon to his church / therefore he can not profite the church. But it will be sayde that this argument followeth not / be­cause no mention is made heere of the deacon or of the elder / which notwithstan­ding are bothe necessarye in the churche / and therefore that there are functions profitable in the church / whereof no mention is made heere. But how easely doe all men know / that the Apostle speaketh of those functions heere only / which are conuersant in the worde / and haue to doe with the preaching thereof: and there­fore made heere no mention of the deacon or elder. It is sayde agayne / that in the Epistle to the Corinth. S. Paule speaketh only of Apostles / Prophetes / and 1. Cor. 12. 28. Doctors / leauing out Euangelistes and pastors / and yet Euangelistes and pa­stors necessary / and so although archbishops are not spoken of in the place to the Ephesians / yet they may not be therfore shut out as vnnecessary. But they that say so / should haue considered that the diuersitie of the matter which the Apostle handleth in these two places / bred a diuers kinde of speche. For in the Epistle to the Corinthians / going aboute to condemne the ambition of men / which will thrust them selues into other mens callings / and take vpon them to doe all them selues / and to be as it were / eye / and eare / and hande and all. S. Paule proueth that the churche is a body / wherein there are manye members / and the same di­uers one from an other / and that it is not one member only. And to proue that / it was sufficient to say that he placed some Apostles / some Prophets / some Doc­tors / without rehearsing all the kindes of functions. But in the Epistle to the Ephesians / meaning to shew the liberalitie of our sauiour Christ in geuing those / which shoulde be able by doctrine and teaching to make perfect and absolute hys church / it was necessary that he shoulde recken vp all those functions / whereby that worke is done.

But how commeth it to passe that S. Paule neyther in the one place / ney­ther in the other / nor else where / maketh mention of the archbishop / which is sayd to be the cheefest piller and vnder setter of the church? Now I heare what is sayde to this: that vnder the pastor is contayned byshop / he is not contayned / but is the same that pastor. How then? forsoth say they an archbyshop is byshop / well then / of byshops some are archbyshops / & some are what? Heere I see that they are hanged in y^e bush / but I will helpe them. Of byshops some are archbyshops / some are by the common name byshops: For if they answere not thus / what haue they to say? But what an absurd thing were that / to say that S. Paule compre­hended an archbyshop vnder a pastor or byshop / which neyther was at that time / nor certayne hundreth yeares after? thys were not to deuide / but to prophesie. And how is it that they neuer marked that S. Paule speaketh of those functi­ons which were in the church / and not of those which should be afterwarde? and of those that God had geuen / and not of those which he would geue? for the words are / (and he hath geuen.)

Moreouer if so be vnder the pastor / the apostle comprehended an archby­shop / then the archbyshop is necessary / and such as the church can not be with­out / and commaunded of God / and therefore not taken vp by the pollicie of the church for the time and countrey / and other circumstances / and such also as can not be put downe at the will of the church / which is contrary to the iudgement of those / which are the archbyshops patrones. The last refuge is / that the A­postle made mention of those functions / which haue to do with the ministring of the word & sacraments / & not of those which haue to do with order & discipline.

Speake in good earnest / had the Apostles nothing to doe with discipline & order? with what face can you take away the raines of gouernment out of the A­postles hands / and put them in the Archbyshops and Archdeacons hands? what a peruersenesse is thys / that the ministeries inuented by men / should be preferred to all the ministeries appoynted and commaunded of God.

The Apostles forsoth haue in common with the Archbyshops and Arch­deacons the power of ministring of the worde and of the sacraments / of binding and losyng / and thus farre as good as the Archbyshops and Archdeacons: But for disciplyne and order / the Apostles haue nothing to doe / but herein Archby­shops and Archdeacons are aboue them / and better then they.

Now syr / if I would follow your vaine of making so many exclamations / as Oh the impudencie / Oh the insolencie / with twentie other such great Ohs / you see I haue occasion both heere and else where / but I would not gladly de­clame / especially when I should dispute / nor make outcries in stead of reasons.

But to come to this distinction: I had thought before this time / that the apostles had bene y^e * cheefe builders in setting vp y^e church: now I perceiue you 1. Cor. 3. 10. make the archbyshops and archdeacons the cheefe builders / and the apostles vn­der carpenters / or common masons / to serue and to take the commaundement of the archbishop and archdeacon. And wheras it is sayd / that the ministers which S. Paule speaketh of / are in the worde and sacramentes / binding and loosing on­ly / and that there be other which are besides these / occupyed in the order and dis­ciplyne of the church (of which number are archbyshops and archdeacons) let vs marke a little what deepe diuinitie heere is.

And first of all / I would gladly aske them / with what aduise they haue layde on a greater burden and waight of the archbishops and archdeacons shoul­ders / then the apostles were able to sustaine?

Secondarily / I aske with what boldnesse / and vpon the confidence of what giftes / any man dare take vppon him both that which the apostles did / and more too? Then I say that it is too too vnskilfully done / to seperate order / and disci­pline from them that haue the ministerie of the word in hand / as though y^e church [Page 87] without archbyshops and archdeacons / were a confused heape / and a disordered lumpe / when as S. Paule teacheth it to be without them / a body consisting of Rom. 12. 4. 5. all his partes and members / comely knitte and ioyned together / wherein nothing wanteth / nor nothing is too much. Doth it not pertayne to order / that the apo­stle sayth / that God hath set first apostles / secondly prophets / thirdly teachers? 1. Cor. 12. 28. Collos. 2. 19. are not these wordes (first / second / third / differences of order? if this be not order / surely I know not what order is. And yet neyther archbyshop nor archdeacon author of this / and it was kept also before they were hatched.

Let vs see of disciplyne and gouernment / which we may see to be commit­ted to those / which haue the preaching of the word / and to others also which dyd not preach the worde / when S. Paule sayth that the elders which gouerne wel / 1. Tim. 5. 17. are worthy double honor / especially those which trauaile in the word. Where he appoynteth the gouernement to the ministers of the worde / and to those also that were not ministers of the worde. And thereupon it followeth / that the ministers of the church are not seuered one from an other / as you seuer them / because some haue the ministration of the worde and sacramentes only / and some with the ad­ministration of the sacramentes and word / haue also the gouernement and disci­plyne in their handes / but cleane contrariwise S. Paule distinguisheth them / and sheweth that all y^e ministers in the church haue the gouermnent / but all haue not the worde to handle / so that he distinguisheth the ministerie into that / whiche is occupyed in the worde and gouernment / and into that which is occupyed in the gouernment only. But in this distinction you do not only forget S. Paule / but you forget your selfe. For if S. Paule speake in that place of those that meddle with the ministring of the word and sacraments only: why doth the bishop which is one of the ministers that S. Paule speaketh of (being the same that pastor is) why I say doth he meddle with the discipline and order of the church / seeing that belongeth not to him by your distinction? why doth also the archbishop (whome you say is a bishop) meddle with it? and thus you see you neede no other aduersa­ry then your selfe / to confute you.

And least any man shoulde say I confute mine owne shadow / I must let hym vnderstand that there is a pamphlet in Latine / which is called the booke of the doctors / which goeth from hande to hande / and especially (so farre as they coulde bring to passe) to those only that they thought to fauoure that opynion / in the which booke / all these answeres vnto the place of the Ephesians are contay­ned / and almost all that which is comprehended in thys defence of archbishops and archdeacons / with other things also which are founde in this booke of M. Doctors: and therefore it is very likely / that he hauing no other way to vente hys rapsodies and rakings togither / thought he would bring them to light after thys sorte / but how much better had it bene / that thys myshapen thing had had the mothers wombe for the graue / or being brought out / had bene hidden as the former is / in some bench hole or darke place / where it should neuer haue seene any light / nor no mans eye should euer haue looked of it? And thus all these cloudes being scattered by the sunne of truth / you see that the place to the Ephesians / stan­deth strong agaynst the archbishop and archdeacon.

Now will I reason also after thys sorte out of the place of the Ephesians and Corinthyans ioyned together. There is no function but hathe giftes fitte and apte to discharge it / annexed and geuen vnto it: whereuppon the Apostle by a Metonomy / doth call the Apostles / Prophets. &c. giftes / because they haue alwayes giftes ioyned with them. Thys being graunted (as no man can deny it) I reason thus.

Those functions only are suffycient for the church / which haue all the gifts needefull / eyther for the mynistring of the worde and sacramentes / or for the gouernement of the churche: but all these functions reckened of S. Paule to [Page 88] the Ephesians / with those which S. Paule calleth antilepseis, and kyberneseis Ephe. 4. 11. 1. Cor. 12. 28. (which are y^e deacons and elders) haue the gifts needeful / eyther for the gouern­ment of the church / eyther else for the ministering of the worde and sacramentes: therefore these functions only are sufficient for the church / for it is a superfluous thing to make more offices / then there be giftes to furnish them / for so they that shoulde haue them / shoulde rather be idols then officers. And therefore for as much as there is no gift which falleth not into some of these functions / it is alto­gether a vaine and vnprofitable thing / to bring more offices and functions into the church besides these.

And so it may be thus reasoned. If men may make and erect new ministe­ries / they must eyther geue giftes for to discharge them / or assure men that they shall haue giftes of God / whereby they may be able to answere them. But they can neyther geue giftes / nor assure men of any giftes necessary to discharge those functions / therefore they may make or erect no new ministeries.

Last of all / I conclude agaynst these made and deuised ministeries of arch­bishops and archdeacons after this sort. If men may adde ministeries / they may also take away / for those both belong to one authoritie: but they can not take a­way those ministeries that God hath placed in his church / therefore they can not adde to those that are placed in the church. And this foundation I thought first to lay / or euer I entred into M. Doctors not reasons / but authorities / not of God / but of men / in confuting of which / there will fall forth also other arguments agaynst both these offices of archbishop / and archdeacon.

Now I will come to the examining of your witnesses / whereof some of them are so bored in the eares / and branded in their foreheades / that no man neede to feare any credite they shall get before any iudge wheresoeuer / or before whom­soeuer they come / but in the Romishe courte / and the papistes only excepted. For to let go Polidore Virgil / because whatsoeuer hee sayth / hee sayth of the credite of another / lette vs come to Clement which is the author of this you speake. And what is he? is there any so blinde that knoweth not that this was nothing lesse then Clement / of whome S. Paule speaketh / and which * some thinke was the 4. Phil. 3. Tert. de pre­scrip. aduersus heret. first bishop of Rome ordayned by Peter / and not rather a wicked helhounde / into whom the Lord had sent sathan to be a lying spirit in his mouth / to deceiue them for their vnthankfull receiuing of the gospell? And he must witnesse for the arch­bishop: a worthy witnesse. For as all that popishe hierarchie came out of the bottomlesse pitte of hell / so to vpholde the archbishop the necke of it / whereupon that Romishe monster standeth / are raised vp from hell bastardes / Clemens and Anacletus / and in deede as it may appeare / the very naturall sonnes of Sathan / and the sworne souldiers of Antichrist.

A man would haue thought / that the bishop of Salisburie master Iuell / had so pulled of the painting of the face of this Clement / that all good men would haue had him in detestation / so farre of would they haue bene to haue alledged out of him to proue any thing that is in controuersie.

The bishop alledgeth both Eusebius and S. Ierome to proue / that none In the reply to M. Harding fol. 7. of those workes which goe in his name / are his. And although the proufes bee strong which the bishop vseth / being the witnes of vnsuspected witnesses: yet because y^e law / although it allow two witnesses / notwithstanding doth like better of three / I will set downe heere also Ireneus which was a great while before them both / and followed hard after the times of the true and vncounterfaite Cle­ment / and therefore could best tell of him / and of hys writings / & yet * he maketh Lib. 3. c. 3. mention but of one Epistle / which vpon occasion amongst the Corinthians / he wrote to them. In deede in another place of that booke / he sheweth that it is ve­ry probable / that Clement also eyther wrote or turned the Epistle to the He­brewes. Now if that Epistle to the Corinthes / were extante / we shoulde easely [Page 89] set by comparing those that are now in hys name with that / what a my shapen thing this is.

And if so be that Ireneus coniecture be good / that Clement was the au­thor or interpreter of the Epistle to the Hebrues / then what horrible iniurie is done to the holy ghost / whyle the same is supposed the wryter of thys booke to the Hebrewes / which is the author of suche beggery / as thys Clement brought into the worlde? And I pray you / doe you holde that it is the true christyan re­lygion / whyche that booke contayneth? Coulde none of these consyderations driue you from the testimonie of thys Clement? it goeth very harde wyth the archbyshop / when these Clementes and Anacletusses / must be brought to vn­derproppe hym.

But what if there be no such booke as thys is / which you name (when you say in hys booke intituled / compendiariū religionis christianae) it is like you know not him / nor what he sayth / when you can not tell so much as his name. Only be­cause Polidore wryteth that Clement sayth this / in a certayne short & summary booke of christian relygion / you haue set downe that he wryteth thus in a booke intituled compendiarium christianae religionis / where there is no such title / ney­ther in the councels where hys Epistles are / neyther yet in all other hys works.

Thought you to disguise hym with thys new name of the booke / that hee shoulde not be knowne? [...]or ment you to occupy your answerer in seeking of a booke / which because he shoulde neuer fynde / he should neuer answer. The place which Polidore meaneth / is in the first epistle which he wryteth vnto Iames / the brother of the Lord / which is as the rest are both rediculous in the manner of wryting / & in the matter oftner tymes wycked & blasphemous / which I speake to thys ende / that the reader through the commendation that M. Doctor hath geuen to thys Clement / in taking hym as one of hys wytnesses in so great a mat­ter / be not abused.

For answere vnto hym / although he be not worth the answering / I say that first it may be well sayde heere of the office of the Archbyshop / that the father of it was an Amorite / and mother a Hittite / that is / that it commeth of very in­famous parentage / the beginning therof being of the idolatrous nations.

And whereas Clement maketh S. Peter the Apostle to make it as it were hys adopted sonne / thereby to wipe away the shame of hys birth / it doth S. Peter shamefull iniury. For besides that it was farre from S. Peter / to take thys authoritie to hym selfe / not only of making archbyshops through out euery prouince / but also instituting a new order or office / without the councell of the rest of the apostles / which none else of the apostles dyd / and which is contra­ry to the practise of S. Peter / both in the first and sixt of the Actes / contrary al­so to the practises of the apostles / which after shall appeare: I say besides thys / is it lyke that S Peter would grasse the noblest plant (as it is sayde) of the my­nisterie of the gospell / in such a rotten stocke of that which was most abhomina­ble in all idolarrie? for the greater they were in the seruice of the idolles / the more detestable were they before God.

The Lorde / when he woulde geuelawes of worshipping / vnto hys people / Leuit. 19. 27. Deu. 22. 11. 12 Leuit. 11. in the things that were indifferent / of shauing & cutting / and apparell wearing / sayth to his people / that they shoulde not doe so / and so / because the Gentiles dyd so / yea euen in those things / the vse whereof was otherwise very profitable / and incommodious to forbeare / he would haue thē notwithstanding to abstaine from / as from swines flesh / conneys. &c. to the end that hee might haue them seuered / Deut. 14. Ephe. 2. 14. as appeareth in S. Paule / by a great and high wall from other nations.

And therefore it is very vnlike that S. Peter would frame the ministerie of the gospell (which is no ceremonie / but of the substance of the gospell) by the ex­ample of the heathenish / and idolatrous functions.

If one had sayde / that the Lord had shapen hys common wealth / by the pa­terne of other common wealthes / although it had bene most vntrue (all other flourishing common wealthes of Athens / Lacedemon / & Rome / borowing their good lawes of the Lordes common wealth) yet had it bene more tollerable: but to say he framed the ministery of the gospell / by the priesthode of idolatrie / is to fetch chastitie out of Sodome / and to seeke for heauen in hell.

And if so be that the Lord had delighted in thys hierarchie / he would rather haue taken of hys owne / then borowed of others / of hys owne church / then of the sinagogue of Sathan. For vnder y^e law besides the Leuites / there were priestes / and aboue them a high priest.

And to say that Peter appoynted archbyshoppes and byshoppes / by the ex­ample of the idolaters / is after a sort to make the law to come out of Egypt or Babylon / and not out of Sion or Ierusalem / as the Prophet sayth. You say Esay. 2. 3. after that / Iames was an archbyshop: if he were / he was the first / and placed ouer the Iewes.

And although S. Peter might to gaine the Gentiles / he content to vse their idolatrous functions / with a little chaunge of their names / yet there is none so mad / to thinke that he would translate any such function from the Gentiles vn­to the Iewes / whych were neuer before accustomed with any such Flamines / or Archiflamines. And thys I dare generally and at once say against you and your Clement / that the Lord translated diuers things out of the Law / into the Gos­pell 5. Math. 22. 9. Iohn. 22. / as the Presbytery or eldershyp / excommunication / and the office of Deacons (as it is thought) for that the Saduces / of whome so often mention is made in the gospell / are thought to haue had that offyce to prouide for the poore / for those that know the Hebrew tongue / doe vnderstand that tsaddikim and tsedacah, do not only signifie iustice and iust men / but also almes and almes men: I say these and others more translated from the law vnto the gospell / but neyther you nor your Clement / shall euer be able to shew / that the Lord euer translated any thing from Gentelisme into the gospell.

We reade in the Actes / that all the Gentiles were commaunded to con­forme Act. 15. 29. them selues vnto the Iewes in the abstayning from bloude and strangled meate for a tyme / but we can neuer finde that the Iewes were commaunded to conforme them to the Gentiles in their ceremonies / the reason wherof is / because the one was sometymes the law of God / and therefore he that had conscience in it / was to be borne with / and the other came from men / and out of their forge / which the Lord would neuer geue so much honor vnto / as to make other men by any meanes subiect vnto them.

But what if there were no such offices amongst the Gentiles & Paganes / as Archiflamines / or Protoflamines? whereof before I shew the coniectures which I haue / I must geue the (gentle reader) to vnderstand / that I am not ig­norant that there are diuers which say there were such offices amongst the Gen­tiles / and namely heere in Englande / that there were. 25. Flamines / and three Archiflamines / wherof were made three archbyshops / of London / Canterbury / and Yorke / and. 25. Bishops / as Platine hath in the chapter Eleutherius: And Galfridus Monemutensis in hys seconde booke and first chapter. And Lum­barde in hys fourthe booke speaketh of it / as of a generall thing that was in all places where Paganisme was. But if so be that the relygion of other Paganes dyd follow / and was lyke vnto that of the Romaines (which is very probable) they being then the rulers of the whole worlde in a maner / vnto whose example all men doe lightly conforme them selues / euen without commaundement / then there is great likelyhoode / there were no such archiflamines / or protoflamines out of Tullie / which sheweth that there was amongst the Romaines dyuers kindes of priestes / whereof some were called flamines / of a seuerall attire which [Page 91] they ware alwayes of their heades / other pontifices, and a thir [...] sort were called Salij, and that the cheefe of these Flamines / was called fl [...]me [...] [...]al [...]s, who was also distinguished from the rest / vp a white hatte / but of any archiflamines / or protoflamines / he maketh no mention at all / and therefore it is lyke that there was neuer any such office amongst the Paganes.

And if there were / I haue shewed how wycked it is to say that Peter fra­med the mynisterie of the gospell by it. Now let it be seene of all men / how strong­ly you haue concluded / that the names of archbyshoppes are not antichristian / when as it is most certen / that he was a piller of antichrist / vppon whome your reason is grounded.

The tymes wherein Volusianus lyued / declare suffyciently how little cre­dite is to be geuen to hys testimonie / which were when the masse had place / if not so wycked as it was after / yet notwithstanding farre differing from the simplici­tie of the supper which was left by our sauiour Christ. And Eusebius is of more Eus. 3. Lib. 4. Eus. 4. Lib. 23. credite in thys then Volusianus / which sayth of the reporte of Dionisius byshop of Corinthe / that S. Paule made Dionisius Areopagita byshop of Athens: he sayth not archbyshop / but byshop / although he speake twise of it. And in the pre­face before hys workes / it is fayde / that after hys conuersion / he went to Rome to Clement / and was sent with others of Clement / into the West partes / and that he came to Paris / and was there executed / whether so euer of these opinions is true / that falleth whyche Volusianus affirmeth. And if eyther Volusianus or you / will haue vs beeleue that Dyonisius Areopagita was archbyshoppe of Athens / you must shew some better authoritie then Eusebius or Dyonisius byshop of Corinthe / and then your cause shall haue at the least some more coloure of truthe.

Erasmus followeth / which sayth Titus was archbyshop of Crete / whom I coulde answere with hys owne wordes / for I am sure he will graunt me / that Titus & Timothe had one office / the one in Ephesus / the other in Crete: but it appeareth by Erasmus hys owne wordes / that Timothe was but byshop of E­phesus / therefore Titus was but byshop of Crete. For Erasmus in hys argu­ment vpon the first Epistle of Timothe / sayth that S. Paule did enfornie Ti­mothe of the office of a byshop / and of the discipline of the church: If eyther he had bene an archbyshop / or an archbyshop had bene so necessary as it is made / hee would haue instructed hym in that also.

And I pray you tell me / whether Erasmus or the Greeke Scholiast / be more to bee beeleeued in thys poynte / out of whome is taken that whyche is in the latter ende of the Epystles to Tymothe and Tytus / where they bothe are called the first elected Byshoppes that euer were / eyther of Ephesus or Creta. For my parte I thyncke they were neyther Byshoppes nor Archby­shoppes / but Euangelistes / as shall appeare afterwardes: But it maye be suf­fycient to haue sette agaynste Erasmus authoritie / the authoritie of the Scho­liaste. And if heere you will cauill and say that the Scholiaste whych sayeth hee was Byshoppe / denyeth not but that he also was an Archbyshoppe / because an archbyshop is a byshop / it may be answered casely / that the Scholiaste dyd not speake nor wryte so vnproperly / as to call them by the generall name of byshop / whome he myght as easely haue called (if the truth woulde haue let hym) by a more proper and particular name of archbyshop. And further in thys dyuision of the mynisters / the archbyshop and the byshop are members of one dyuision / and therefore one of them can not be affirmed and sayde of an other / for that were con­trary to the nature of a true dyuision.

And yet I haue a further answere / bothe to Erasmus and Volusianus / and whatsoeuer other haue written after thys sort / that they speake & gaue titles to those men they wrote of / not according to that which they were / but according [Page 92] to the custome and manner of that age wherein they wrote. And so we may read vincen. 10. lib. c. 124. Nice. 4. li. ca. 38. that Vincentius and Nicephorus wryting of Victor / speake farre otherwise of hym / then Eusebius doth / which notwithstanding wrote of the same man which they dyd. The one calleth Victor the Pope of Rome. And the other sayeth / that in glory he passed all the byshops before hym / which Eusebius neuer maketh any word of. Euen so Volusianus and Erasmus / lyuing in the tymes when as they which were the most esteemed in the ministerie / were called archbyshops / call Titus and Dyonisius archbyshops / vpon whome depended the cheefe care of those churches which they gouerned.

There followeth Anacletus / an other of these witnesses / which must de­pose that the name of an archbyshop is not antychristian / of whome / as of Cle­ment that went before / and Anicetus which followeth after / the common pro­uerbe may be verifyed / Aske my fellow if I be a theefe. And although the an­swerer be ashamed of hym / and sayth therefore he will omit him / yet euen very neede dryueth hym / to bring hym in / and to make hym speake the vttermost hee can. And thys honest man sayth / that Iames was the first archbyshop of Ieru­salem. But Eusebius sayth / Iames was byshop / not archbyshop of Ierusa­lem / and appoynted by the apostles. And in an other place / he sayth / that the a­postles dyd appoynt after hys death / Simeon the sonne of Cleophas / byshop of Ierusalem. And Ireneus sayeth / that the apostles in all places appoynted by­shops 2. Lib. 23. cap. 3. Lib. 22, vnto the churches / whereby it may appeare what an idle dreame it is of Clement / Volusianus / and Anacletus / eyther that Peter dyd thys by his owne authoritie / or that the primitiue churche was euer staynes wyth these ambyti­ous 4. Lib. 63. tytles of patriarche / prymate / metropolytane / or archbyshoppe / when as the storyes make mention / that thoroughe out euery churche / not chery pro­uince / not by Peter or Paule / but by apostles / a byshop / not an archbyshop / was appoynted.

And heere you put me in remembraunce of an other argument agaynst the archbyshop / which I will frame after thys sorte. If there shoulde be any arch­byshop many place / the same shoulde be eyther in respect of the persone or mini­ster and hys excellencie / or in respecte of the magnificence of the place: but the most excellent mynisters that euer were / in the most famous places / were no archbyshops / but byshops only / therefore there is no cause why there shoulde be any archbyshop. For if there were euer mynister of a congregation worthy / that was Iames / if there were euer any citte that ought to haue thys honor / as that the mynister of it should haue a more honorable title / then the mynisters of other cities and townes / that was Ierusalem / where the sonne of God preached / and from whence the gospell issued out vnto all places. And afterwarde that Ieru­salem decayed / and the church there / Antioche was a place where the notablest men were that euer haue bene since / which also deserued great honoure / for that there the * disciples were first called christians / but neyther was that called the Act. 11. 26. first and cheefest church / neyther the mynisters of it called the Arche or principal byshoppes. And Eusebius to declare that thys order was firme and durable / Eus. 3. 23. sheweth that S. Iohn the Apostle / which ouer lyued the residue of the Apo­stles / ordayned byshops in euery church.

These two / Anacletus and Anicetus / you say / are suspected / why do you say suspected / when as they haue bene conuinced and condemned / and stande vp­pon the pillery / with the cause of forgerie written in great letters / that he which runneth may reade? Some of the papistes them selues / haue suspected them / but those which mayntayne the truth haue condemned them as full of popery / full of blasphemy / and as those in whome was the very spirit of contradiction to the A­postles and their doctryne.

And do you marke what you say / when you say that these are but suspected? [Page 93] Thus much you say / that it is suspected / or in doubt / whether the whole body of poperie and antichristianitie were in the Apostles time / or sone after or no / for Clement was in the Apostles time / and their scholer / and so you leaue it in dout, whether the apostles appoynted and were the authors of popery or no. I thinke if euer you had red the Epistles / you woulde neuer haue cited their authorities / nor haue spoken so fauourably of them as you doe.

You come after to the councel of Nice / wherin I wil not sticke with you / that you say it was holden the .CCC. xxx. yeare of the Lorde / when as it maye appeare by Eusebius hys Computation / that it was holden. Anno Domini CCC xx. and heere you take so greate a leape / that it is enoughe to breake the archbishoppes necke / to skippe at once .CCC. yeares / (that is / from the tyme of the apostles / vntill the time of the councell of Nice) wythout any testimony of any / either father / or storie of faithe and credite / whych maketh once mention of an archbishop. What no mention of hym in Theophilus / byshop of Antioche? none in Ignatius? none in Clemens Alexandrinus / none in Iustin Martyr / in Ireneus / in Tertullian / in Origine / in Cyprian / none in all those olde Hi­storiographers / out of the whych Eusebius gathereth hys story? Was it for his basenes and smalnes / that he could not be seene amongst the byshops / elders / and deacons / being the cheefe and principall of them all? can the Ceder of Lebanon be hid amongst the boxe trees? Aristotle in his Rhethorike ad Theodecten, sayeth / that it is a token of contempt / to forget the name of an other / belike therefore if there were any archbishop / he had no chaire in the church / but was as it semeth / digging at the metalles. For otherwise they that haue filled their bookes wyth the often mentioning of bishops / would haue no doubt remembred him. But let vs heare what the councell of Nice hath for these titles.

In the. 6. canon mention is made of a metropolitane bishop: what is that to the metropolitane whych is now / either to the name / or to the office? of the of­fice it shal appeare afterwards. In the name I thinke there is a great differēce / betwene a metropolitane bishop / & metropolitane of England / or of al England. A Metropolitane bishop was nothing els / but a bishop of that place / which it pleased the Emperor or magistrate to make the chefe citie of the diocese or shire / and as for thys name / it maketh no more difference betwene bishop and bishop / then when I say a minister of London / and a minister of Nuington. There is no man that is well aduised / whych will gather of thys saying / that there is as great difference in preheminence betweene those two ministers / as is betweene London / and Nuington: for his office and preheminence / we shall see hereafter.

There are alledged to proue the names of archbyshops / patriarkes / arch­deacons / the. 13. 25. 26. and. 27. Canons of the councel of Nece. For the. 25. 26. 27. there are no such canons of that councell: and although there be a thirtenthe canon / there is no worde of patriarke / or archdeacon / there contained. And I maruell wyth what shame you can thruste vppon vs these counterfaite canons whych come out of the popes minte / yea / and whych are not to be found. Theo­doret sayeth / that there are but twentie Canons of the councell of Neece / and 1. Lib. 8. cap. those twentie are in the tome of the councels / and in those there is no mention of any patriarke / archdeacon / archbishop. Ruffine also remembreth. 22. Canons / 1. lib. 6. ca. very little differing from those other twenty / but in lengthe / and in none of those are found any of these names of archbishop / archdeacon / patriarke. And it is as lawfull for M. Harding to alledge the. 44. canon of the coūcell of Nece / to proue the supremacie of the Pope of Rome / as it is for M. doctor Whitgift / to alledge the. 25. 26. 27. to proue the name of archbyshop / archdeacon / patriarke: for they are all of one stampe / and haue lyke authoritie.

I feare greatly / some craftye dissembling papist had hys hand in this boke / who hauing a great deale of rotten stuffe / whych he coulde not vtter vnder hys [Page 94] owne name (being already lost) brought it vnto the author heereof / whych hath vpon his credite without further examination / set it to sale. Peraduenture you will thinke scorne to be censured and reprehended of a poore minister of the coun­trey / and therfore I will turne you ouer for your lesson in thys behalfe / vnto the bishop of Salisburie in hys Replie against M. Harding / touching the article of the supremacie. If all shoulde be allowed of / that S. Ambrose alloweth of / then besides other things whych he holdeth corruptly / the marriage of the ministers 1. lib. offic. cap. 50. should go very hard: But it is worthy to be obserued / wyth what words Amb. doth allowe of the archbishop / that all men may vnderstande / howe lowe it goeth wyth M. Doctor / for his defence of the archbishop / and howe the archbishop is so out of credite / that there can not be gotten any to be surety for hys honesty.

Ambrose complaining of the ministers or bishops in those dayes / sayeth / it a man aske them / who preferred them to be priestes / answere is made by and by / that the archbyshop for an hundreth shillings / ordained me bishop / to whome I gaue a hundreth shillings / that I might get the fauor to be bishop / whych if I had not giuen / I had not bene byshop. And afterward he sayeth / that this gree­ued him / that the archbyshop ordained byshops carnally / or for some carnall res­pecte. And thys is all the allowance that Ambrose sheweth of an archbyshoppe. Your archbishop taketh all things in good parte / so that his very dispraise he ex­poundeth to hys commendation. And there is great likelyhode / that the archby­shop whych Ambrose maketh mention of / was no other / then he whych for the time ruled the action / wherin byshops were ordained / and after the action ended / had no more authoritye then the rest.

And I am moued so to thincke. First / because it is not like / that one only ordained byshops / being contrary to the olde Canons of the best councelles / but that there were other / and that thys whome Ambrose calleth archbyshop / dyd gather the voyces. &c.

Secondly / because it was very vnlike / that there was any absolutely / a­boue S. Ambrose / in those partes where he complaineth of euill byshops / or mi­nisters made.

Thirdly / for that Ambrose in an other place (whych you after cite) deui­ding all the church into the cleargye and laitye / dothe subdeuide the cleargy into bishops / elders / and deacons / and therfore it is not like that there was any which had any continuall function of archbyshop. But as he was called choregos or leader of the daūce / whych commeth first / and after comming in againe in the se­cond or third place / is no more so called: so that byshop was called archbyshop / whych for the time present did gather the voyces of the rest of the byshoppes / whych he by & by layde downe wyth the dissoluing of the meeting. And that this is not my coniecture only / that there was no ordinarye or absolute archbyshop / let the Centuries be seene / whych alledge that place of Ambrose / to proue that the office of an archbishop / was not then come into the church / whych was. 400 yeares after Christ / and more also.

Basile you say the greate Metropolitane of Cappadocia. I haue shewed what the worde metropolitane signifieth / and howe there was not then suche a metropolitane as we haue now / and as y^e admonition speaketh against. You play as he which is noted as none of the wisest amongst y^e marchants / which thought that euery shyp that approched the hauen / was his shippe: for so you thinke that wheresoeuer you reade metropolitane or archbyshop / forthwith you thinke there is your metropolitane or your archbyshop / whereas it shall appeare / that besides the name / they are no more like then a byshop wyth vs / is like a minister.

I can not tell whether you would abuse your reader heere / wyth the falla­cion of the accent / because thys worde (Great) is so placed betweene Basile and metropolitane / that it may be as wel referred to the metropolitane / as to Bastle / [Page 95] and so you hauing put no comma, it seemeth you had as l [...]eue haue your reader read great metropolitane / as great Basil. But y^t the simpler sort be not deceiued therby / it is not out of the way to let the reader vnderstand / what a great metro­politane thys was / whych * appeareth / for that when he was threatned by the Sozo. 6. l. c. 16. magistrate / confiscation of hys goodes / answeared / that he was not afraid of the threatnings / and that all hys goodes were a very few bokes / and an olde gowne / suche were then those Metropolitanes / vnder whose shadowes M. Doctor go­eth aboute to shroude all this pompe / and princely magnificence of oure archby­shoppes.

As for Simeon archbyshop of Seleucia / I will not deny / but at that time was the name of archbyshops / for then Sathan had made throughe the titles of archbishop / primate / patriarch / as it were three stayers / wherby antichrist might clime vp into hys curssed seate. Notwithstanding there wanted not good decrees of godly councelles / whych did strike at these proude names / and went aboute to keepe them downe / but the swelling waters of the ambition of diuers / coulde not by any bankes be kept in / whych hauing once broken oute in certaine places / af­terwardes couered almost the face of the whole earthe.

This endeuoure of godly men / may appeare in the councell of Carthage / Conc. Cartha. cap. 39. whych decreed that the bishop of the first seat / shoulde not be called exarchon ton hieron, e akron ierea, e toiouton tipore: that is / either the chefe of the priestes / or the high priest / or any such thing / by whych wordes (any such thing) he shutteth out the name of archbyshop / and all such hautie titles.

The same decree also was made in the Affricane councell / and if you saye Concil. Tom. 2. 1. c. 6. that it was made against the Pope of Rome / or to forbid that any man should be called archbyshop / shewe me where there was either byshop of Rome / or any o­ther that euer made any suche title or chalenge / to be the generall byshop of all / at that time / when this councell of Carthage was holden: when as the first of those whych did make any suche chalenge / was the byshop of Constantinople / whych notwithstanding chalenged not the preheminence first ouer all / but that he might ordaine byshoppes of Asia / Pontus / Thracia / whych were before appoynted by their Sinodes / and thys was in the councell of Chalcedon / whych was long af­ter that councell of Carthage before remembred.

For to proue the lawfulnesse of the name of an archdeacon / the antiquitye / the necessitye of it / the testimonies of foure are broughte / which neither speake of their lawfulnes / nor of their necessity / and they say not in deede so muche as God saue them: and two of these witnesses are Popes / whereof the first / and best / or­dained that if the Metropolitane did not fetche hys pall at the apostolike sea of Rome / wythin three monthes after he were consecrated / that then he should lose his dignity / as Gratian witnesseth in the decrees y^• he ascribeth vnto Damasus.

I doubt not therfore that this is but a forger / vpon whom you would fa­ther the archdeacon / for that Damasus / in whose place you put this forger / liued An. 387. at what time the sea of Rome had no suche tirannye as thys / and other things which are fathered of him / do pretēd. And if this be enough to proue arch­deacons / I can with better witnes proue subdeacons / acoluthes, exorcistes, lecto­res, ostiarios, these dothe Eusebius make mention of / an auncienter wryter / then any you bring / and out of Ruffine / Theodoret / Sozomen / Socrates. &c. monks almost in euery page. And heere vpon it is more lawfull for me to conclude / that monkes / subdeacons / exorcistes, acoluthes, ostiarij, lectores, are necessary ecclesia­sticall orders in the church / as you conclude the necessity of the archdeacon.

I perceiue you care not whether the archdeacon fall or no / that you bestow so little coste of hym / and leaue him so nakedly. And if I woulde be but halfe so holde in coniectures / and diuinations / as you are / I coulde say that thys sleighte handling of the archdeacon / and sweating so muche aboute the archbyshoppe / is [Page 96] thervpon y^• you woid be loth to come frō being deane / to be an archdeacon / & you liue in some hope of being archbyshop / but I will not enter so farre. And surely for any thing that I see / you might haue trussed vp the archbyshop as shorte / as you do the archdeacon. For they stand vpon one pinne / and those reasons whych establishe the one / establishe the other / wherevpon also commeth to passe / that all those reasons whych were before alledged against the archbishop / may be drawn against the archdeacon / hauing therfore before proued the vnlawfulnes of them / I will heere set downe the difference betweene those archdeacons that were in times past / and those whych are nowe / whereby it may appeare they are nothing like / but in name.

Sozo. 7. 19. They were no ministers / as appeareth in Sozomen / oures are.

Concil. Vrban. Sozom. 7. lib. c. 19. They were tied to a certaine churche / and were called archdeacon of suche a congregation or churche / oures are tied to none / but are called archdea­cons of suche a shire.

Ierom to E­uagr. They were chosen by all the Deacons of the churche where they be archdeacons / oures are appoynted by one man / and whych is no deacon.

Conc. Nic. can. 14. and after Ruff. can. 20. They were subiect to the minister of the word / oures are aboue them / and rule ouer them.

Ieron. ad Euag. August. quest. noui & veteris testa. q. 101. It was counted to them great arrogancie / if they preferred thēselues to any minister or elder of the churche / oures will not take the best ministers of the churche as their equalles. If therfore archdeacons will haue any benefite by the archdeacons of olde time / it is meete they shoulde content them selues wyth that place whych they were in.

As for the office of a deane / as it is vsed wyth vs / it is therfore vnlawfull / for that he being minister / hathe no seuerall charge or congregation appoynted wherein he maye exercise hys ministerie / and for that he is ruler / and as it were maister of diuers other ministers in hys colledge / whych likewise haue no seueral charges of congregations: and for that whych is most intollerable bothe he hym selfe oftentimes hauing a seuerall churche or benefice / as they call it / is vnder the coloure of hys deaneship / absent from hys churche / and suffereth also those that are vnderneathe hym / to be likewise absent from their churches. And whereas M. Doctor alleageth S. Augustine / to proue thys office to be auncient / in deede the name is there founde / but besides the name / not one propertye of that Deane whych we haue. For Augustine speaking of the monkes of those dayes / sayeth / that the money which they gate wyth the labor of their hands / they gaue to their deane / which did prouide them meate and drinke / and cloth / and all things neces­sary for them / so that the monkes shoulde not be drawne away from their studies and meditations / throughe the care of worldly things / so that thys deane whych he speaketh of / was seruaunt and steward / and cater to the monkes / and therfore only called deane / because he was steward and cater to ten monkes. Now let it be seene what Augustines deane / maketh for the deane whych is nowe / and what faith and trust M. Doctor vseth / in reciting of the olde fathers.

And vnto the ende that these testimonies might be more autenticall / & haue some waight in them / M. Doctor addeth / that hetherto antichrist had not inua­ded the seat of Rome. You shall haue much a do / to proue that antichrist had not inuaded the sea of Rome / when your Clement / Anaclete / Anicete / and Dama­sus wrote. Nay / it is moste certaine / that then he had possessed it. But what is that to the purpose / althoughe there was no one singulare head appeared / or lif­ted vp / yet corruption of doctrine / and of the sacraments / hurtful ceremonies / do­minion and pompe of the cleargye / newe orders and functions of the ministerie / whych were the handes that pulled hym / the fete whych brought him / the shoul­ders that lifted and heaued him vp into that seate / were in the church. Neither / while you doe thus speake / doe you seeme to remember that this monster needed [Page 97] nine monethes / but almoste nine hundreth yeares / to be framed and fashioned / or euer he could wyth all his partes be brought to light. And although the Loouer of thys antichristian building were not set vp / yet y^e foundations therof being se­cretely / and vnder the ground laid in the apostles times / you might easely know / that in those times that you speake of / the building was wonderfully aduaūced and growne very highe. And being a very dangerous thing to ground any order or pollicy of the church vpon men at all / whych in deede ought to haue their stan­ding vpon the doctrine and orders of the apostles / I wil shew what great iniu­rie M. Doctor doth / to sende vs for our examples and paternes of gouernment to these times / whych he doth direct vs vnto.

Eusebius oute of Egesippus / wryteth / that as long as the apostles liued / Eus. 3. lib. 32. the churche remained a pure virgin / for that / if there were any that went about to corrupt the holy rule that was preached / they did it in the darke / & as it were digging vnderneath the earth. But after y^e death of the apostles / and y^e generati­on was past / whych God vouchsaued to heare the deuine wisedome wyth their owne eares / then the placing of wicked error / began to come into the church.

Clement also in a certaine place to confirme that there was corruption of Lib. Stromat. somewhat after the beginning. 7. lib. 11. ca. doctrine immediately after the apostles times / alledgeth the prouerbe / that there are fewe sonnes like their fathers.

And Socrates sayeth of the church of Rome and Alexandria (which were the most famous churches in the apostles times) that about the yeare. 430. the Romaine and Alexandrian byshops / leauing the sacred function / were degene­rate to a seculare rule or dominion. Wherevpon we see howe that it is safe for vs to go to the scriptures / and to the apostles times / for to fetch our gouernmēt and order. And that it is very dangerous to drawe from those riuers / the fountaines wherof are troubled and corrupted / especially when as the wayes whereby they runne / are muddier and more fennie / then is the head it selfe.

And although M. Doctor hathe brought neither scripture / nor reason / nor councel / wherin there is either name of archbishop or archdeacon / or proued that there may be / & although he shewe not so much as the name of them. 400. yeres after our sauioure Christ. And although where he sheweth them / they be eyther by counterfait authors / or wythout any worde of approbation of good authors / yet as though he had shewed all / and proued all / hauing shewed nothing / nor pro­ued nothing / he clappeth the hands to himselfe / and putteth the crowne vpon hys owne heade / saying / that those that be learned / may easely vnderstande / that the names / archbishop / archdeacon / primate / patriarche / be most auncient and appro­ued of the eldest / best / worthiest councels / fathers / wryters. And a little after­ward / that they are vnlearned / and ignorant / whych say otherwise.

Heere is a victory blowne wyth a great and sounding trumpet / that might haue bene piped wyth an oten straw. And if it shuld be replied againe / that M. Doctor hathe declared in thys / little learning / little reading / and les iudgement / there might grow controuersies wythout all frute. And by and by / in saying that y^e archbyshops beginning is vnknown / in stead of a bastard / which some brought into the church / that hid them selues because they were ashamed of the childe / he will make vs beleeue that we haue a new Melchisedech / without father / wyth­out mother / and whose generation is not knowne / and so concludeth wyth the place of S. Augustine / as farre as he remembreth in the. 118. epistle to Ianua­rie: that the originall of them is from the apostles them selues.

Heere M. Doctor seemeth to seeke after some glory of a good memory / as thoughe he had not Augustine by him / when he wrote this sentence. And yet he maruellously forgetteth him selfe / for he vsed this place before in hys. 23. page / and citeth it there precisely and absolutely / where also I haue shewed howe vn­aduisedly that sentence of Augustine is approued / & howe that therby a window [Page 98] is open to bring in all popery / and whatsoeuer other corrupt opinions. That the names of Lordes / and honor / as they are vsed in this realme / are not meete to be giuen to the ministers of the gospell / there hath bene spoken before.

As for Prelate of the Garter / if it be a nedefull office / there are inow to ex­ecute it besides the ministers / whych / for as much as they be apoynted to watch ouer the soules of men purchased wyth the bloud of Christ / all men vnderstande / that it is not meete that they should attend vpon the body / much les vpon the leg / and least of all vpon the Garter. It is not vnlawfull for Princes to haue mini­sters of their honor / but also it is not lawful to take those that God hath appoyn­ted for an other ende / to vse to suche purposes.

Thou seest heere (good Reader) that M. Doctor keepeth hys olde wonte of manifest peruerting of the wordes and meaning of the authors of the admoni­tion / for where as they say / that the name of Earle / Countie Palatine / Iustice of peace / and Quorum / Commissioner / are antichristian / when they are geuen to ministers of the church / whose calling wil not agree wyth such titles / he conclu­deth simply / that they say that they be altogither vnlawfull / and simply antichri­stian. As / if I should reason that it is not meete that the Quenes maiesty shuld preach or minister the Sacraments / therefore it is not meete that there should be any preaching or ministering of the sacraments.

Now letting pas all your hard words / & vnbrotherly speaches / wyth your vncharitable Prognostications / and colde prophesies / I will come to examine / whether you haue any better hap in prouing the office / then you had in prouing the name.

And wheras in the former treatise of the name of the archbyshop / he blew y^e trompet before the victory / here in this of the office he bloweth it / before he com­meth into the fielde / or striketh one stroke / saying / that they little consider what they wryte / that they are contemners of auncient wryters / & that they neuer red them / and that they are vnlearned / which deny these things which he affirmeth. Wel / what we read / & how vnlearned we are / is not the matter which we striue for. The iudgement thereof is first wyth God / and then with the churches / and in their iudgements we are content to rest. But if you be so greatly learned / and we so vnlearned / and smally red / then the truth of our cause shall more appeare / that is maintained wyth so small learning & reading / against men of suche pro­found knowledge and great reading. And yet I knowe not why (if we be not to idle) we shuld not be able to read as much as you / which may haue leisure to read a good long wryter / or euer you can ryde / only to see / and salute your houses and liuings / being so many / and so farre distāt one from an other. And if we be so vn­learned / and holde suche dangerous opinions of Papistrie and Anabaptistry / as you beare men in hand we do / why do you not by the example of the ministers in Germanie / procure a publike disputatiō / where you may both win your spurres / and such detestable opinions / wyth the ignorance of the authors / may be display­ed vnto the whole world? But let vs heare what is sayd.

Cyprian (sayth he) speaking of the office of an archbyshop. &c. Onles (good reader) thou wilt first beleue that Cyprian speaketh of an archbyshop / and haste before conceiued a strong imagination of it / M. Doctor can proue nothing. Ari­stotle sayeth that vncunning Painters / wryte the names of the beastes whych they painte in their tables / for because otherwise it coulde not be knowne what they painte: so M. Doctor mistrusting that the archbyshop will not be knowne by his description / wryteth first the name of that he wil paint out.

Thys is it whych we striue about / wherof the cōtrouersy is / and this M. doctor taketh for graunted. He accuseth the authors of the admonition / for faul­ting in the petition of the principle / or desiring to haue that graunted whych is denyed / & yet I am sure / that in the whole admonition / there is not such a grosse [Page 99] petition as thys is. Where / or in what wordes dothe S. Cyprian speake of the office of an archbyshop? And heere by the way it is to be obserued of the reader / how neare a kin the Pope and the archbishop be. For this office is confirmed by the same places / that the popes is / the places and arguments which are brought againste hym / are soluted wyth the same solutions that they vse / whych main­taine the papacie. For these places of Cyprian be alledged for the popes supre­macye / and in deede they make as muche for the Pope / as for the archbyshoppe. For / although they be two heades / yet they stande vpon one necke / and therfore the reformed churches whych cutte right / did strike them bothe of at one blowe. In neyther of the sentences heere alledged out of Cyprian / nor in all his works / as hath bene before noted / is there one worde of an archbyshop / and yet M. doc­tor sayeth that he speaketh of an archbyshop.

Before he shewed the name wythout the office / and now he goeth about to shew the office wythout the name / so that he can neuer make bothe the name and office meete together. To shape out an archbyshop heere / you must needes inter­preate the wordes (byshop and priest) archbyshop and hygh priest / for Cyprian maketh mention of no other name of ministerie in those places. And if you maye haue thys scope of interpreating / it wil not be harde for you / to proue that stones be bread / and that chaulke is cheese. Let vs see what is a byshop or priest (I vse the name of priest against my wil / but because it is sacerdos, & you so trāslate it / that it may be better vnderstanded what I answere to you / I am content to fol­lowe you so farre) I say let vs consider what is a byshop or priest by S. Cypri­an / and thereby we shall knowe / what an archbyshop he setteth forthe vnto vs. Whych thing may appeare manifestly / by that which he sayeth in the same Epi­stle / that the byshop that is appoynted into the place of hym that is dead / is cho­sen peaceably by the voyce of all the people.

I thincke you will not say that all the people through oute the whole pro­uince / or through out a whole diocese (as we count a diocese) mette togither / for that had bene bothe a great disorder and confusion / a great charge to the church / and in the time of persecution as that was / to haue offered the whole church in all the prouince / into the mouthe of the wolfe.

And least peraduenture you shoulde haue thys hole to hide your selfe in / saying that it might be procured / that in euery church or parishe through out ey­ther the prouince or diocese / the consent of the people might be asked / and they ta­ry in their places where they dwel / Cyprian in the next epistle / doth put the mat­ter out of all question / saying that the priest (whome he after calleth byshop) is chosen in the presence of the people / & in the eyes of all / so that Cyprians byshop / whome you will needes haue an archbyshop / had neither prouince nor diocese / as we call a diocese / but only a church or congregation / suche as the ministers and pastors wyth vs / whych are appoynted vnto seuerall townes. Which may fur­ther appeare / in that Cyprian sayeth / that out of one prouince there were. 90. bi­shops / whych condemned Priuatus. Nowe / if there were. 90. byshops in one prouince whych met / and yet not all that were in that prouince (as may appeare out of the same Epistle) all men do vnderstand that the scope that Cyprians by­shop or archbyshop (as you will haue him) had / was no suche thing as a diocese or a prouince. I coulde bring infinite testimonies out of Cyprian / to proue that the byshop in his time / was nothing else but S. Paules byshop / that is / one that had cure and charge of one flocke / whych was so placed as it might be taught of hym / and ouerseene by him / and gouerned by hym / and of whom in matters per­taining to God / it myght depend.

Furthermore / to shape the archbyshop by these places of Cyp. you must be driuen to expound this word (church) prouince. The papistes (which cite thys place for the pope / as you doe for the archbishop) expounde the worde (churche) [Page 100] heere / to be the whole church vniuersal and catholike / and in dede / although it be falsly expounded so in thys place / yet may they doe it wyth more probability and likelyhode / then to expound it a prouince / forsomuch as these words (the church) is oftner red / both in the scripture / and old wryters / to signify the whole church / then any prouince of one realme. But lette Cyprian expounde him selfe what he meaneth by a church heere / although that may easely appeare by that / whych is spoken of S. Cyprian hys bishop. Wheras Cyprian declareth / that Cornelius the bishop of the church which was in Rome / would not let Felicissimum a No­uation hereticke / being caste oute by the byshoppes of Affricke / to enter into the church / he declareth sufficiently / that he meaneth that companye of the faithfull / whych were gathered togither at Rome / to heare the word / and to communicate at the sacramentes. For it was not Cornelius part to shutte him out of the pro­uince / neither indeede could he / him selfe being not able without hazard (by rea­son of the persecution that then was) to tary in any part of the prouince. Againe / speaking against the Nouatian hereticke / he sheweth that throughe hys wicked opinion of denying of repentance to those that were fallen / the confession of faults in the churche was hindred. Nowe it is manifest that confession was not made through out the prouince / but in that particulare church where the partye dwelt that committed the fault. Therefore Cyprian vnderstandeth by the name of the church / neither diocese (as we call diocese) and muche les a whole prouince. And in the same Epistle / speaking of those whych had fallen / he sayeth / that they durst not come so much / as to the thresholde / or entry of the churche / where he also op­poseth the church to the prouince / saying that they roue about the prouince / and run about to deceiue the brethren. Seeing therefore / the byshop whych Cyprian speaketh of / is nothing else but such as we call pastor / or as the common name w^t vs is parson / and his church wherof he is bishop / is neither diocese nor prouince / but a congregation whych mete togither in one place / & to be taught of one man / what should M. doctor meane to put on this great name of archbyshop / vpon so small a byshoppricke? as it were Saules great harnes / vpon Dauid hys little body / or as if a man should set a wide huge porche / before a little house.

And least that M. doctor should say / that notwithstanding the bishops had but seuerall churches / yet one of them might haue either a title more excellēt then the rest / or authority and gouernment ouer the rest / that shall be likewise conside­red out of Cyprian. And first for the title and honor of archbishop / it appeareth how Cyprian held that as a proud name / for that he obiecteth to Florentius as a 4. lib. 9. epist. presumptuous thing / for that in beleuing certaine euill reports of hym / and mis­iudging of him / he did appoynt him selfe bishop of a bishop / and iudge ouer hym / which was for the time / appoynted of God to be iudge. And heerein also / I may vse the same reasons which the godly writers of our times vse against y^e pope / to proue y^t he had no superiority in those dayes ouer other bishops / for that the other bishops called him brother / and he them / called him fellow bishop / & he them. For so doth Cyprian cal y^e bishops of that prouince in his epistle / his fellow bishops / and in diuers places his brethren. And in the sentence which he spake in the coū ­cel of Carthage / he sayth / none of vs doth take him selfe to be bishop of bishops.

Nowe / that there was no authoritye of one byshop ouer an other / and that there was none suche / as when controuersies roase / tooke vppon hym the com­pounding of them / or any one to whome it appertained / to see the vnitye of the church kept / and to see that all other bishops / and the cleargy / did their duety (as M. Doctor beareth vs in hand) it may clearely be seene in diuers places of Cy­prian / and first of all in that sentence / which he spake in the councel of Carthage, where he proceedeth further after this sort / that none of them did by any tiranni­call feare / binde his felowes in office / or any fellow byshops / to any necessity of o­bedience / seeing that euery bishop hath for his free libertye and power / hys owne [Page 101] iudgement or discretion / as one which can not be iudged of an other / as he also hym selfe / can not iudge an other. But (sayth he) we ought to tary and waite for the iudgement of our Lord Iesus Christ / which only / and alone / hath power to set vs ouer hys church / & to iudge of our doing. And in the same Epistle where­out the first place is taken by M. Doctor / he sayth that vnto euery one a porti­on of the flocke is appoynted / which euery one must rule and gouerne / as he that shall render an accompt of hys deede vnto the Lord. And in an other place hee 2. Lib. ep. 1. sayth / we doe not vse any compulsion or vyolence ouer any / nor appoynt no law to any / seeing that euery one that is set ouer the church / hath in the gouernment / the free disposition of hys owne will / whereof he shall geue an accompt vnto the Lord. And yet Cyprian was the byshop of the metropolitane or cheefe seate / and one whome for hys learning and godlynesse / the rest no doubt had in great reue­rence / and gaue great honor vnto.

And whereas it is sayde for the preseruation of vnitie / one must be ouer all / S. Cyprian sheweth / that the vnitie of the church is conserued / not by hauing 4. Lib. ep. 9. one byshop ouer all. But by the agreement of the byshops / one with an other. For so he wryteth that the church is knit and coupled together (as it were with the glew) of the byshops consenting one with an other / and as for the compoun­ding of controuersies / it is manyfest / that it was not done by one byshop in a prouince / but those byshoppes whych were neere the place where the schisme or heresie sprang.

For / speaking of the appeasing of controuersies / and schismes / and shewing Lib. 1. 4. ep. how dyuers byshops were drawne into the heresie of Nouatus / he sayth / that the vertue and strength of the Christians was not so decayed or languished / but that there was a portion of priestes / which dyd not geue place vnto those ruines / and shipwrackes of fayth.

And in an other place he sayth: therefore most deare brother / the plentifull 3. Lib. ep. 13. body or company of y^e priests / are as it were with the glew of mutuall concorde & bande of vnitie ioyned together / that if any of our company be author of an here­sie / and goe about to destroy and rent the flocke of Christ / the rest should helpe / and as profitable & mercifull shepheards / gather together the sheepe of the Lord: wherby it is manifest / that the appeasing & composing of controuersies / & heresies was not then thought to be most fitte to be in one byshops hand / but in as many as coulde conueniently assemble together / according to the danger of the heresie which sprang / or deepe roote which it had taken / or was like to take. And that there was in his time no such authoritie geuen / as that any one might remoue the causes or controuersies which rose / as now we see there is / when the byshop of the diocese / taketh the matters in controuersie / which rise in any church within hys diocese / from the minister and elders / to whome the decision pertayneth / and as when the archbyshop taketh it away from the byshop / it may appeare in y^e same thirde Epistle of the first booke / where he sayth after this sort. It is ordayned / & it is equall and right / that euery mans cause shoulde be there hearde / where the fault was committed. And a little after he sayth: It is meete to handle the mat­ter there / where they may haue both accusers / and witnesses of the fault / whiche although it be spoken of them / which fied out of Affrike vnto Rome / yet the rea­son is generall / and doth as wel serue agaynst these Ecclesiasticall persons / which will take vnto them the decyding of those controuersies that were done a hun­dreth mile of them.

And whereas M. Doctor in both places of Cyprian / semeth to stand much vpon the wordes (One Byshop and priest) the reason thereof doth appeare in an other place of Cyprian / most manifestly / and that it maketh no more to proue that Lib. 3. 13. ep. there ought to be one archbyshop ouer a hole prouince / then to say / that there ought to be but one husbande proueth / that therefore there should be but one hus­bande [Page 102] in euery countrey or prouince / which shoulde see that all the rest of the hus­bandes / doe their dueties to their wyues. For thys was the case. A Nouatian hereticke being condemned / and cast out of the churches of Affrica / by the con­sent of the byshops / & not able by embassage sent to them to obtayne to be receiued to their communion and fellowship agayne / goeth afterwardes to Rome / and being lykewise there repelled / in tyme getteth hym selfe by certayne which fauou­red hys heresie / to be chosen byshop there at Rome (Cornelius being the byshop or pastor of those which were there godly mynded) whereupon it commeth / that Cyprian vrgeth (one byshop / one priest in the church) because at Rome there was two / whereof one was a wolfe / which ought not to haue bene there / consi­dering there was but one church / which was gathered vnder the gouernmēt of Cornelius. And therefore by that place of Cyprian it can not be gathered / that there ought to be but one byshop in one citie / if the multitude of professors require more / and that all can not well gather them selues together in one congregation / to be taught of one man / much lesse can it serue to proue / that there should be but one in a whole diocese or prouince. I graunt that in later tymes / and which went more from the simplicitie of the primitiue church / they tooke occasion of these wordes to decree / that there should be but one byshop in a citie / but that can ne­uer be concluded of Cyprians wordes / if it be vnderstanded why he vrgeth one byshop and one priest. If therefore neyther word (byshop nor priest) do make a­ny thing to proue an archbyshop / nor thys worde (church) doth imply any pro­uince / nor in these wordes (one byshop one priest) there is nothing lesse ment / then that there should be one archbyshop ouer all the byshops and cleargie in a prouince / and if Cyprian will neyther allow of the title of archbyshop / nor of the authoritie and office / but in playne wordes speaketh agaynst both / we may con­clude / that M. Doctor hath done very vnaduisedly / to lay so great waight of the archbyshop vppon S. Cyprians shoulders / that w [...]ilnot only not beare any thing of hym / but which hath done all that coulde be / to make hym goe a foote / and hand in hand with hys fellowes. There are other reasons which M. Doctor vseth / as thys / a notable one. S. Cyprian speaketh not of the vsurped power of the by­shop of Rome / therefore he speaketh of the office of an archbyshop and metropo­litane. It is hard to call thys argument to any head of fallation / for it hath not so much as a colour of a reason / & I thincke it can deceiue no body but your self. An other reason is / that all the godlyest & best learned mē do expound the place of Cy­prian in the 3. Epist. of the first booke of an archbyshop. The vanitie of thys say­ing / that the godly & learned wryters so expound it / I haue shewed before / and heere it commeth to be considered agayne. I will not say that no godly nor learned wryter / expoundeth the place of Cyprian of the authoritie of an archbishop.

But first I desire M. Doctor to set downe but one / and then I will leaue it to thy consyderation (gentle reader) to thincke / whether M. Doctor hath red any learned or godly mans exposition to be suche / when he hath not red those which are nearest hym / I meane our owne countrey men. I say he hath not red them / because I woulde thinke charitably so of hym / rather then that he shoulde haue red them / and yet speake vntruely of them / and father those things of them / which they neuer speake.

M. Iewell the byshop of Sarisburie expounded thys place / and yet dyd ne­uer In hys first booke. 4. arti­cle / and in dy­ansion. 5. expounde it / of the office and authoritie of an archbyshop of all the byshops / and clergie of the prouince / but cleane contrarywise applyeth it to the authoritie that euery byshop had in hys diocesse / hys wordes are these: Now therefore to draw that thing by violence to one only byshop / that is generally spoken of all byshops / is a guilefull fetch to misseleade the reader / and no simple nor playne dealing. Heere you see that M. Iuel doth not vnderstande thys of any archby­shop / but of euery byshop.

M. Nowel Deane of Poules / hauing occasion to speake of this place / sayth First booke a­gainste Dor­man / and. 25. leafe. on thys sort. So that when he speaketh (meaning Cyprian) of one byshop / one iudge in the churche / for the time / or of the byshop whych is one / and ruleth the church absolutely / he meaneth euery byshop in his owne diocesse wythout excep­tion. If he speake specially / he meaneth the byshop of the citye or diocese wherof he entreateth / whether it be the byshop of Rome / Carthage / or any other place.

M. Fore also expoundeth thys of euery byshop wythin hys owne churche 1. Tom. fol. [...] ▪ or diocese. You heare the iudgement of these three wryters / that can not picke out neyther the name / nor the office of an archbyshop out of Cyprians place / and yet I thinke you wil not deny / but these were learned and godly wryters. Now I haue shewed you three / I aske once againe of you one godlye and learned wryter / that expoundeth it as you doe. And by thys time I suppose all men vn­derstande / what a small friend S. Cyprian is / eyther to the name or office of an archbyshop. Let vs heare whether Ierome make any more for the archbyshop / then did Cyprian.

The Hebrues doe deriue the name of time of a verbe / whych signifyeth to corrupt / because in dede it doth corrupt all / and as the times are / so are mē which liue in them / that euen very good men carye the note of the infection of the times / wherin they liue / and the streame of the corruption therof / being so vehemēt and forcible / doth not only driue before it / light things / but it cateth also and weareth the very hard and stony rockes / and therfore there is not to be loked for / such sin­ceritie at Ierome his hand / whych we found in S. Cyprian / considering that he liued some ages after Cyprian / what time sathan had a great deale more darkned the cleare light of the sonne of the gospell / then it was in S. Cyprians time. For as those that came nearest vnto the apostles times / because they were nearest the light ▪ did see best / so those that were further of from these lightes / had / vntill the time of the manifestation of the sonne of perdition their heauens more darke and cloudy / and consequētly did see more dimly / whych is diligently to be obserued of the reader / bothe the better to vnderstand the state of thys question / and all other controuersies whych lie betweene vs and the papistes.

And although Ierome besides his other faultes / might haue also in thys matter spoken more soundly / yet we shall easely perceiue / that he is a great deale further / from eyther the title or office of an archbyshop / or else from the authority that a byshop hath with vs / then he is from the simplicity of the ministery which ought to be / and is commended vnto vs by the worde of God.

And heere I must put M. Doctor in remembrance / howe vnfitly he hath dedicated his boke vnto the churche / whych hath so patched it / and peeced it of a number of shreds of the doctors / that a sentence of the scripture / eyther truely or falsely alledged / is as it were a Phenix in thys boke. If he would haue had the church beleue hym / he oughte to haue setled their iudgement / and grounded their faith vpon the scriptures / whych are the only foundations whervpon the church may build. Nowe he doth not only not geue them grounde to stand of / but he lea­deth them into wayes whych they can not folowe / nor come after him. For / ex­cept it be those whych are learned / and besides / haue the meanes and abilitye / to haue the bokes whych are heere cited (which are the least and smallest portion of the church) how can they know that these things be true whych are alledged / and as I haue said / if they could know / yet haue they nothing to stay them selues vp­on / and quiet their conscience / in allowing that which M. Doctor would so faine haue them like of. Therefore he might haue much more fitly dedicated his booke vnto the learned and riche / whych haue furnished libraries.

Ierome sayeth / that at the first / a byshoppe and an Elder (whych you call priest) were all one / but afterward through factions / & schismes / it was decreed / that one should rule ouer the rest. Now I say against this order (that the bishop [Page 104] shoulde beare rule ouer all) that which our sauioure Christ sayth vnto the Pha­rises / from the beginning it was not so / and therefore I require that the first or­der may stande / which was / that a byshop & elder were all one. And if you place so great authoritie agaynst the institution of God in a mortall man: heare what Tertullian sayth vnto you. Contra prax.

That is true / whatsoeuer is first: and that is false / whatsoeuer is later.

Ierome and you / confesse that thys was first / that the byshop was all one with the elder / and first also by the word of God / then I conclude that that is true. You both doe likewise confesse that it came after that one bare rule ouer the rest / then I conclude that that is false / for all that is false that is later. Further­more Ierome in the same place of Titus sayth after thys sort. As the elders know them selues to be subiect by a custome of the church vnto hym that is set o­uer them: so the byshops must know that they are greater then the elders / rather by custome then by any truth of the institution of the Lord / and so they ought to gouerne the church in common.

Now / seing that Ierome confesseth that a byshop and an elder / by God his institution are all one / and that custome of the church hath altered thys instituti­on / for the taking away of thys custome and restoring of the Lordes institution / I say as our sauiour Christ sayd / why doe you breake the commaundementes of Math. 15. 3. God / to establishe your owne traditions? for the one is the institution of God / and the other the tradition of the church / and if a mans testimony be so much with M. Doctor / let hym heare what the same Tertullian fayth: whatsoeuer sauou­reth De veland virg. agaynst the truth / shall be accompted heresie / euen although it be an olde cu­stome. Now I will turne M. Doctors owne argument vpon hys head / after thys sorte. In the apostles tymes there were schismes and heresies / but in their tymes there were no archbyshops ordayned to appease them / therefore the best meanes of composing of controuersies / and keping concorde / is not by hauing an archbyshop to be ouer a whole prouince. That there was none in the apostles tymes / thus it may appeare. If there were any / they were eyther ordayned by the apostles and their authoritie / or else without / and besides their authoritie. If there were any without / and besides their authoritie / then they are therefore to be condemned the more / because in their tymes they starte vp without their war­rant. And if the apostles dyd ordayne them / there was some vse of them to that wherunto they were ordayned / but there was no vse of them / to that wherunto they were ordayned / therefore the apostles dyd not ordayne them. The vse wher­unto M. Doctor sayth they were ordayned / was to compose controuersies / and end schismes / but to thys they were not vsed / whereupon it followeth / that if there were any / they were vnprofitable. That they were not vsed to any such ende / it shall be perceiued by that which followeth.

At Antioche there rose a great and daungerous heresie / that had in a man­ner Act. 15. 2. infected all the churches / which shaked the very foundation of the saluation of Gods children / that was / whether fayth were sufficient to iustifie without circumcision. The matter was disputed of both sides / it could not be agreed of. What doe they now? Doe they ordayne some Archbishop / Archprophet / Archa­postle / or any one cheefe to whome they will referre the controuersie / or vppon whome they will depend? nothing lesse. And if they would haue had the contro­trouersies ended by one / what deuine was there euer / or shall there be more fit­ter for that purpose then S. Paule / which was amongst them? Why doe they sende abrode for remedy / when they had it at home? why with great charges and long iourneys / which they might haue had without charges / or one foote set out of the dore? what doe they then? They sende Paule and Barnabas to Ierusa­lem / as if the lesser townes / should send to the churches of the vniuersities / and of London / to desire their helpe in the determining of the controuersie. And what [Page 105] is Paule and Barnabas ambassage / is it to desire the iudgement or minde of some one? it must needes be answeared wyth S. Luke / that they came to know Acts. 15. 23. the resolution of the churche / and yet there were the apostles / wherof euery one was better able both sharply to see / and to iudge incorruptly wythout affection / then any archbyshop that euer was. If therfore in so great aboundance & ouer­flowing of the gifts of God / and in that time when as controuersies might haue bene referred wythout daunger of error vnto one only / thys ministerie of one a­boue all / was not thought good: now / when the gifts are les / and the danger of error more / to make an archbyshop for the deciding of controuersies / and auoi­ding of schismes / is a thing so straunge / that I am not able to see the reason of it. For to whych so euer of the apostles the controuersy had bene referred / it is cer­taine that he would haue geuen a true sentence of it.

And if any can shew me one man in these times / of whom we may be assu­red / that he will pronounce the truth of euery question whych shall arise / he shall make me somewhat more fauorable to the archbyshop / then presently I am. For although there were found one such as could not erre / yet I could not consent that the matter should lye only vpon his hand / seeing that the apostles whych could not erre in these matters / would not take that vpon them / and seeing that by that meanes the iudgement of the church should be contemned / and further / for that the iudgement of one man in a controuersy / is not so strong to pull vp errors that are rooted in mennes minds / as the iudgement and consent of many. For / that the iudgement of many is very apt either to confirme a truth / or to cō ­fute falshode / it is euident that S. Paule doth hold forth / as it were a buckler 1. Cor. 11. 16. 1. Cor. 14. 33. against the frowardnes of certaine / the authority of the church.

Furthermore / if this distinction came vp in the apostles time / and by them / how commeth it to pas / that they neuer mention it / nay / how commeth it to pas that euen S. Paule in that very Epistle where these voyces are found (I hold of Paule / I of Apollo / I of Cephas whych are sayd to be the cause of the arch­byshop / 1. Cor. 14. 29.) ordaineth a cleane contrary to thys that M. Doctor commendeth? For when two or three prophets haue expounded the scriptures / he appoynteth that all the rest that are there / should iudge whether they haue done well or no.

And how commeth it to pas that S. Paule being at Rome in prison / and loking euery day when he should geue vp hys last breath / commended vnto the church a perfect and an absolute ministery / standing of .v. parts / wherin he ma­keth Ephes. 4. 11. mention / not one word of an archbyshop: and sayeth further / that that mi­nistery is able to entertain the perfect vnity / and knitting togither of the church? Do not all these things speake / or rather cry / that there was not so much as a step of an archbyshop / in the apostles times? And if you will say / that the apo­stles did ordaine archbyshops (as you haue in dede sayd / & do now againe) when as there is not one word in the wrytings of them / I pray you tell vs / how we shall hold out of the church / the vnwrytten verities of the papists? for my part / if it be true that you say / I can not tell what to answer vnto them. For our an­swere is to thē / the apostles haue left a perfect rule of ordering the church wryt­ten / and therfore we reiect their traditions / if / for no other cause / yet because they are superfluous / and more then neede. Now this degree of archbishop / being not only not mentioned in the scriptures / but also manifestly oppugned / it is too bold and hardy a speache (that I say no more) to fetch the petegree of the archbyshop / from the apostles times / and from the apostles them selues. But all thys time M. Doctor hath forgotten hys question / whych was to proue an archbyshop / wheras all these testimonies whych he alledgeth / make mētion only of a bishop / and therfore thys may rather confirme the state of the byshop in this realme / thē the archbyshop. But in the answere vnto them it shall appeare / that as there is not in these places so much as the name of an archbyshop mentioned / so except [Page 106] only the name of a bishop / there shalbe found very little agreemēt betwene the bi­shops in those dayes / and those whych are called byshops in our time / & with vs.

And consequently / although M. doctor thought wyth one whiting boxe / to haue whited two wals (by establishing our archbyshop and byshop by the same testimonies of the fathers) yet it shalbe plaine / that in going about to defend both / he left both vndefended. Let vs therfore come first / to examine Ieroms reasons / why one must be ouer the rest / for in the testimony of men / that is only to be re­garded / whych is spoken eyther wyth some authority of the scripture / or wyth some reason grounded of the scripture: otherwise / if he speake wythout eyther scripture or reason / he is as easely reiected as alledged. One (sayth he) being cho­sen to be ouer the rest / bringeth remedy vnto schismes: how so? least euery man (sayeth he) drawing to him selfe / to breake the church in peeces.

But I would aske if the church be not in as great danger / when all is done at the pleasure and lust of one man / and when one caryeth all into error / as when one pulleth one peece wyth him / another an other peece / and the third hys partal­so wyth him. And it is harder to draw many into an error / then one / or that many should be caryed away by their affections / then one / whych is euident in water / whych if it be but a little / it is quickly troubled and corrupted / but being much / it is not so easely. But by thys ecclesiasticall Monarchie / all things are kept in peace: Nay / rather it hath bene the cause of discord / and well spring of most hor­rible schisme / as it is to be seene in the very decretals them selues. And admit it Decret. part. 2. c. 9. q. 3. & can. Apost. 33. & a­libi passim. were so / yet the peace whych is wythout truth / is more execrable thē a thousand contentions. For / as by striking of two flintes togither / there commeth out fire / so it may be / that sometimes by contention / the truth whych is hidden in a darke peace / may come to light / whych by a peace in naughtines and wickednes / being as it were buryed vnder the ground / doth not appeare.

If therfore superiority & domination of one aboue the rest / haue such force to keepe men from schismes / when they be in the truth / it hath as great force to kepe them togither in error / and so besides that one is easier to be corrupted then many / thys power of one bringeth as great incommodity in keping them in error if they fall into it / as in the truth if they are in it. Moreouer / if it be necessary for the keping of vnity in the church of England / that one archbyshop should be pri­mate ouer all / why is it not as meete / that for the keping of the whole vniuersall church / there should be one archbyshop / or byshop ouer all / and the like necessity of the byshop ouer all christendome / as of the byshop of all England / vnles per­aduenture it be more necessary / that there should be one byshop ouer the vniuer­sall church / then ouer the church of England / for as much as it is more necessa­ry that peace should be kept / and schismes be auoyded in the vniuersali church / then in the particulare church of England.

If you say that the archbyshop of England / hath hys authority graunted of the Prince / the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas / whych was Emperor of all christendome / did graunt him hys authority ouer all chur­ches. But you will say that it is a lie / but the Pope will set as good a face / and make as great a shew therin / as you do in diuers poynts here. But admit it to be a lie (as in dede it is touching Constantine) yet I say further / that it may come to passe / & it hath ben / that there may be one Christian Cesar ouer all the realmes whych haue churches. What if he then will geue that authority to one ouer all / that one king graunteth in hys land / may any man accept and take at hys hand such authority? and if it be not lawful for him to take that authority / tel me what fault you can finde in him / whych may not be found in them?

It will be sayd that no one is able to do the office of a byshop / vnto all the whole church / neither is there any one able to do the office of a byshop to y^e whole church of England. For when those which haue ben most excellent in knowledge [Page 107] and wisedome / and most ready and quicke / in doing and dispatching / matters / be­ing alwayes present / haue found enough to do to rule and gouerne one seuerall congregation: what is he whych (absent) is able to discharge hys duety toward so many thousand churches? And if you take exception / that although they be absent / yet they may do by vnder ministers / as by Archdeacons / Chauncellors / Officials / Commissaries / and such other kinde of people / what doe you else say / then the Pope / whych sayeth / that by hys Cardinalles / and archbyshoppes / and Legates / and other suche like / he doeth all things? For wyth their hands he ru­leth all / and by their feete he is present euerye where / and wyth their eyes he se­eth what is done in all places. Let them take heede therfore / least if they haue a common defence wyth the Pope / that they be not also ioyned nearer wyth hym in the cause / then peraduenture they be aware of. Truely it is against my will / that I am constrained to make suche comparisons / not that I thinke there is so great diuersity betweene the Popedome and the archbyshoppricke / but because there being greate resemblance betweene them / I meane / hauing regarde to the bare functions / wythout respecting the doctrine good or badde whych they vp­holde / that I say there being great resemblance betweene them: there is yet as I am persuaded / great difference betweene the parsons that execute them. The whych good opinion conceyued of them / I we moste humbly beseeche them by the glory of God / by the libertye of the churche purchased by the precious bloude of oure sauioure Christe / and by their owne saluation / that they woulde not de­ceiue / by retaining so harde / suche excessiue and vniust dominion ouer the church of the liuing God.

But Ierome sayth / that this distinction of a byshop / & a minister or elder / was from s. Marke his time / vnto Dyonisius time / wherby M. doctor would make vs beleeue / that Marke was the author of this distinction. But that can not be gathered by Ieromes words. For besides that things being ordred then by the suffrages of the ministers and elders / it might (as it falleth out of tētimes) be done without the approbation of s. Marke: the words (from Marke) may be rather taken exclusiuely / to shut oute S. Marke / and the time wherin he liued / then inclusiuely / to shut hym in the time wherin thys distinction rose.

How so euer it be / it is certaine that S. Marke did not distinguish & make those thyngs diuers / whych the holy ghoste made all one. For then (whych the Lord forbid) he shoulde make the story of the gospell whych he wrote / suspected.

Againe / it is to be obserued that Ierome sayeth it was so in Alexandria: signifying therby / that in other churches it was not so. And in deede it may ap­peare in diuers places of the auncient fathers / that they confounded priest & by­shop / & toke them for all one / as Eusebius out of Ireneus calleth Anicete / Pi­us / Telesphorus / Higinus / xystus / presbyterous cai prostantas, elders / and pre­sidents. Cyprian confoundeth priest and byshop in the epistles before recited / so Lib. 5. 26. De dignitate sacerdotali. 1. Rom. 8. doth Ambrose in the place alledged before by M. doctor / and yet it is one thyng with vs / to be a priest (as M. doctor speaketh) and an other thing to be a bishop.

Ierusalem was a famous church / so was Rome as the apostle witnesseth / so was Antioche and others / where also were great contētions / both in doctrine and otherwise / and yet for auoiding of contention and schisme there / there was no one that was ruler of the rest / therfore we ought rather to folowe these churches being many / in keping vs to the institution of the apostles / then Alexandria being but one church / and departing from that institution / and if there had bene any one set ouer all the rest in other places / it would haue made much for the distinction that Ierome had recited. But against thys distinction of s. Ierome / I will vse no other reason / thē that whych Ierome vseth in the same epistle to Euagrius. Ierome in that epistle / taketh vp very sharply the archd. that he preferred hym selfe before the elder / & the reason is / because by the scripture y^e deacon is inferior [Page 108] vnto the elder. Now therfore Ierome him selfe confessing that by the scripture a byshop & an elder are equall / by Ieromes owne reason / the byshop is to be sharp­ly reprehended / because he lifteth hym selfe aboue the elder. But what helpeth it you / that there was a byshop of Alexandria / whych vrge an archbyshop / or what auauntageth it you / that there was one cheefe called a byshop in euery seuerall congregation / whych would proue that there ought to be one byshop / chefe ouer a thousand congregations. What could haue bene brought more strong to pull downe the archbyshop out of hys throne / then that whych Ierome sayeth there / when he affirmeth that y^e byshop of the obscurest village or hamlet / hath as great authority and dignity as the byshop of Rome? Erasmus did see this / and sayd / eironeuomenos, that is iestingly / that Ierome spake that of the byshops of hys times / but if he had sene how the metropolitanes of our age excell other bishops / he wold haue spoken otherwise. And what could haue bene more fit to haue con­futed the large dominion and superiority of our realme / then that that Ierome sayth / when he appoynteth the byshops sea in an vplandishe towne / or in a pore village or hamlet / declaring therby that in euery towne there was a byshop / and that the bishop that he speaketh of / differeth nothing at all from an elder / but that the byshop had the ordaining of the ministers / whervpon it doth appeare (which I promised to shew) that by this place of Ierome / there is neither name of arch­byshop / nor so much as the shadow of his authority / and that the byshops whych are now / haue besides the name / no similitude almost with the byshops that were in Ieromes time / as for his reason / ad Luciferanos, it is the same whych he hath / ad Euag. and to Titus / and is already answeared.

What is that to the purpose / that Chrysostom sayth / there must be degrees? who denyeth that there are degrees of functions? we confes there is / and ought to be a degree of pastors / an other of doctors / the third of those whych are called elders / the fourth of deacons. And where he sayth / there should be one degree of byshop / another of a minister / an other of the lay man / what proueth that for the office of an archbyshop / whych is your purpose to shew? how often times must you be called ad Rhombum? And that he meaneth nothingles / then to make any such difference betwene a byshop and a minister / as is wyth vs / which you wold faine make your reader beleue / I will send you to Chrysostome / vpon the third chapter. 1. ep. to Timothe / where he sayeth: The office of a byshop differeth lit­tle or nothing from an elders / and a little after / that a byshop differeth nothyng from an elder or minister / but by the ordination only. Still M. doctor goeth for­ward in killing a dead man / that is / in confuting that / whych all men condemne / and prouing that whych no man denyeth / that there must be superiority amongst men / and that equality of all men a like / confoundeth all / and ouerthroweth all.

Thys is a notable argument / there must be some superior among men: ergo, one minister must be superior to an other. Again / there must be in the eccle­siastical fūctions / some degrees: Ergo, there must be an archbishop ouer the whole prouince / or a bishop ouer the whole diocese. And all be it M. doctor taketh great paine to proue that whych no man denyeth / yet he doth it so euill fauoredly / and so vnfitly / as that if a man had no better proufes then he bringeth / the degrees of the ecclesiasticall functions / myght fall to the ground. For heere to proue the de­grees of the ecclesiasticall functions / he bryngeth in that / that Chrysostom sayth / there must be magistrate and subiect / hym that commaundeth / and hym that o­beyeth.

The most therefore that he can conclude of thys / for the mynistery / is / that there must be minister that shall rule / and people that shall be obedient / and heereby he can not proue that there should be any degrees amongst the mini­sters / and ecclesiasticall gouernors / vnles he will say peraduenture / that as there are vnder Magistrates / and a king aboue them all / so there should be vnder [Page 109] mynisters / and one mynister aboue them all. But he must remember that it is not necessary in a common wealth / that there should be one ouer all / for that there are other good common wealthes / wherein many haue lyke power and authori­tie. And further / if because there is one king in a lande aboue all / he will conclude there should be one archbyshop ouer all: I say / as I haue sayde / that it is not a­gaynst any word of God which I know (although it be inconuenient) but that there may be one Cesar ouer all the world / and yet I thinke M. Doctor will not say / that there may be one archbyshop ouer all the world.

Now M. Doctor commeth to hys olde hole / where he woulde fayne hyde hym selfe / and with hym all the ambition / tyranny / and excesse of authoritie / which is ioyned wyth these functions of archbyshoppe / and byshoppe / as they are now vsed: and thys hys hole is / that all the mynisters are equall with byshops / and archbyshops / as touching the mynisterie of the worde and sacramentes / but not as touching pollicie and gouernment. The papistes vse the very selfe same distinction / for the mayntenance of the Popes tyranny and ambytion / and other their hierarchie.

Maister Doctor hath put out the marke / and conceled the name of the pa­pistes / and so with a little chaunge of wordes / as it were with certayne new co­loures / he woulde deceiue vs. For the papistes saye / that euery syr Iohn or hedge priest / hath as great authoritie to sacrifice and offer for the quicke and the dead / and to mynister the sacramentes as the Pope of Rome hath / but for go­uernment / and for order / the byshoppe is aboue a priest / the archbyshoppe aboue a byshoppe / and the Pope aboue them all. But I haue declared before out of the scriptures / how vayne a distinction it is / and it appeareth out of Cyprian / that as all the byshops were equall one to an other / so he sayth / that to euery one was geuen a portion of the Lordes flocke / not only to feede with the worde and sacra­mentes / but to rule and gouerne / not as they which shall make any accoumpte vnto an archbyshop / or be iudged of hym / but as they which can not bee iudged of any / but of God. And Ierome vpon Titus sayeth / that the elder or myni­ster dyd gouerne and rule in common with the byshops / the churche whereof he was elder or mynister.

After followeth M. Caluin / a great patrone forsoth / of the archbyshop / or of thys kynde of byshop which is vsed amongst vs heere in Englande. And heere to passe ouer your straunge cytations and quotations which you make / to put your answerer to payne / sending hym sometymes to Musculus common places for one sentence / to Augustines workes / to Chrysostomes workes / to Cyrill / to Maister Foxe / and heere sending hym to the viij. chapter of the institutions / as though you had neuer red Caluins institutions / but tooke the sentence of some bodye else / withoute anye examination / whereby it seemeth that you were lothe that euer any man should answere your booke / letting I say all thys passe / what maketh thys eyther to proue that there shoulde bee one archbyshoppe ouer all the mynisters in the prouince / or one byshoppe ouer all in the diocese / that amongst twelue / that were gathered together into one place / there was one which ruled the action / for which they mette? And that it may appeare what superioritie it is / which is lawfull amongst the mynisters / and what it is that M. Caluin spea­keth of / what also the fathers and councels doe meane / when they geue more to the byshoppe of any one church / then to the elder of the same church / and that no man be deceiued by the name of gouernoure or ruler ouer the rest / to fancie any such authoritie and domination or Lordship / as we see vsed in our church / it is to be vnderstanded / that amongst the pastors / elders and deacons of euery par­ticulare church / and in the meetinges and companies of the mynisters or elders of dyuers churches / there was one chosen by the voyces and suffrages of them all / or the most part / which did propound the matters that were to be handled / whether [Page 110] they were difficulties to be soluted / or punishmentes and censures to be decreed vpon those which had faulted / or whether there were elections to be made / or what other matter so euer occasion was geuen to entreate of / the which also ga­thered the voyces and reasons of those which had interest to speake in such cases / whiche also did pronounce according to the number of the voyces whiche were geuen / which was also the mouth of the rest / to admonishe / or to comfort / or to rebuke sharply / such as were to receiue admonishment consolation / or rebuke / and which in a worde dyd moderate that whole action / which was done for the time they were assembled: which thing we do not deny / may be / but affirme that it is fitte & necessary to be / to the auoyding of confusion. For it were an absurde hea­ring that many should at once attempt to speake / neyther coulde it be done with­out great reproch / that many men beginning to speake / some should be bidden to holde their peace / which would come to passe / if there should be no order kept / nor none to appoynt / when euery one should speake or not / to put them to silence / when they attempted confusedly to speake / and out of order. Moreouer when many ministers mete together / and in so great dyuersitie of giftes as the Lorde hath geuen to hys church / there be founde that excell in memory / facilitie of tong / and expedition or quicknesse to dispatche matters more then the rest / and there­fore it is fitt / that the brethren that haue that dexteritie / shoulde especially be pre­ferred vnto thys office / that the action may be the better / and more spedely made an ende of.

And if any man will call thys a rule or presidentship / and hym that execu­teth thys office a president or moderator / or a gouernour / we will not striue / so that it be with these cautions / that he be not called simply gouernor or modera­tor / but gouernor or moderator of that action / and for that time / and subiect to the orders that others be / & to be censured by the company of the brethren / as wel as others / if he be iudged any way faulty. And that after that action ended / & mee­ting dissolued / he sitte hym downe in hys olde place / and set hym selfe in equall e­state with the rest of the ministers. Thirdly / that thys gouernment or president­ship / or what so euer lyke name you will geue it / be not so tyed vnto that minister / but that at the next meeting it shall be lawfull to take an other / if an other bee thought meeter. Of thys order and pollicy of the church / if we will see a liuely i­mage and perfect paterne / let vs set before our eyes / the most auncient and gospel like church that euer was or shall be.

In the actes / the church being gathered together for the election of an A­postle into the place of Iudas the traytor / when as the interest of election be­longed vnto all / and to the apostles especially aboue the rest / out of the whole com­pany Peter riseth vp / telleth the cause of their comming together / with what 1. Act. 15. cautions and qualities they ought to chuse an other / conceyueth the prayer wher­by the helpe of God in that election / and his direction is begged / and no doubt ex­ecuted the residue of the things which pertayned vnto the whole action.

In the seconde of the actes / all the Apostles are accused of drunkennesse / Peter answeareth for thē all / wypeth away the infamy they were charged with. But you will say / where are the voyces of the rest / which did chuse Peter vnto thys. First / you must know that the scripture setteth not downe euery circum­stāce / & then surely you do Peter great iniury / that aske whether he were chosen vnto it. For is it to bee thought / that Peter would thrust in hym selfe to this of­fice or dignitie without the consent and allowance of hys fellowes / and preuent hys fellowes of thys preheminence? vndoubtedly / if it hadde not beene done ar­rogantly / yet it must needes haue a great shew of arrogancye / if hee hadde done thys without the consent of hys fellowes. And heere you shall heare what the Scholiast sayth / which gathereth the iudgement of Greke diuines hora (spea­king of Peter) panta meta koines auton gnomes poiounta. Behold / how he doth [Page 111] all with their common consent. And if any man hereupon will say / that Peter exercised domination ouer the rest / or gate any archapostleship / beside that y^e whole story of the actes of the apostles / and his whole course of life doth refute that: the same Scholiast which I made mention of in the same place / sayth he did nothing / archikos, imperiously / nothing meta exousias, with domynion or power. Further / I will admonishe him to take heede / least if he striue so sore for the archbyshop / he slide or euer he be aware into the tentes of the papistes / which vse these places to proue that Peter had authoritie and rule ouer the rest of the apostles.

And that it may bee vnderstanded / that thys moderate rule / voyde of all pompe and outward shew / was not perpetuall / nor alwayes tyed vnto one man (which were the last poyntes of the cautions I put before) turne vnto the 15. of the Actes / where is shewed / how with the rest of the church / the apostles / and amongst them Peter being assembled to decide a great controuersie / Iames the Act. 15. 13. Apostle / and not Peter / moderated and gouerned the whole action / when as af­ter other had sayd their iudgementes / and namely Paule and Barnabas / & Pe­ter / he in the ende / in the name of all / pronounced the sentence / and that whereof the rest agreed / and had disputed vnto / and the residue rested in that iudgement / the which also may likewyse appeare in the 21. of the Actes. This is hee which Act. 21. 20. is called the byshop in euery church / thys is he also whome Iustin wherof men­tion is made afterwardes / calleth proestos. And finally / thys is that great archbi­shoppricke / and great bishoppricke that M. Doctor so often stumbleth on. This order and preheminence / the Apostles time / and those that were neare them kept / and the nearer they came to the apostles times / the nearer they kept them to this order / and the farther of they were from those times / vntill the discouering of the sonne of perdition / the further of were they from thys moderation / and nearer to that tyranny and ambitious power / which oppressed and ouerlayde the churche of God.

And therefore maister Caluin doth warely say / that one amongst the apo­stles indefinitely / not any one singular person (as Peter) had the moderation and rule of the other / and further shadoweth out what rule that was / by the exam­ple of the consul of Rome / whose authoritie was / to gather the senate together / & to tell of the matters which were to be handled / to gather y^e voyces / to pronounce the sentence. And although the Antichrist of Rome had peruerted all good order / and taken all libertie of the church into hys / the Cardinalles / Archbishops / and Byshoppes handes / yet there are some colde and lyght footinges of it in our sy­nodes / which are holden with the parliament / where amongst all the mynisters which are assembled out of all the whole realme / by the more part of voyces / one to chosen which should goe before the rest / propounde the causes / gather the voy­ces / and bee as it were the mouth of the whole company / whome they terme the prolocutor. Suche great force hath the truthe / that in the vtter ruines of Po­pery / it could neuer be so pulled vp by the rootes that a man coulde neuer know the place thereof no more / or that it shoulde not leaue suche markes and printes behinde it / whereby it myght afterwardes recouer it selfe / and come agayne to the knowledge of men.

Now you see what authoritie we allow amongst the ministers / both in their seuerall churches / or in prouinciall sinodes / or nationall / or generall / or what so e­uer other meetinges shall be aduised of for the profite and edifying of the church / and withall you see / that as we are farre from thys tyranny and excessiue power which now is in the church / so we are (by the grace of God) as farre from confu­sion and disorder / wherein you trauell so much to make vs to seeme giltie.

M. Doctor reasoneth agayne / that Paule an Apostle / and in the highest degree of ministerie / was superior to Timothe and Titus Euangelistes / and so in a lower degree of mynisterie / therefore one mynister is superior to an other / [Page 112] one byshop to an other byshop / whych are all one office / and one function. As if I shuld say my Lord Mayor of London is aboue the sherifes / therfore one she­rife is superior to an other. Again / an other argumēt he hath of the same strēgth. Titus being an Euangelist / was superior to al the pastors in Crete / which was a degree vnder the Euangelists / therfore one pastor must be superior vnto an o­ther pastor. And that he was superior / he proueth because he had authority to or­daine pastors / so that the print of the archbyshop is so deepely set in his head / that hereof he can imagine nothing / but that Titus shuld be archbishop of all Crete.

I haue shewed before / how these words are to be taken of S. Paule: and for so much as M. Doctor burdeneth vs wyth the authority of Caluin so often / I wil send him to Caluins owne interpretation vpon this place / wher he shew­eth y^e Titus did not ordaine by his owne authority / for s. Paul wold not graunt Titus leaue to do that / whych he him self wold not / and sheweth that to say that Titus should make the election of pastors by him selfe / is to giue vnto hym a princely authority / and to take away the election from the church / and the iudge­ment of the insufficiency of the minister from the company of the pastors / whych were (sayeth he) to prophane the whole gouernment of the church.

I maruell therfore what M. doctor meaneth to be so busy wyth M. Cal­uin / and to seke confirmation of his archbyshop and byshop at him / whych wold haue shaken at the naming of the one / and trembled at the office of the other / on­les it be because he would faine haue hys plaister where he receiued hys wound / but I dare assure him / that in his garden / he shall neuer finde the herbe that wil heale him. And because that the scriptures when they make for our cause / receiue this answer commonly / that they serued but for the apostles times / and M. Cal­uins authority will wey nothing as I thinke wyth M. Doctor / when he is al­ledged by vs against hym / I wil send hym to the Greke Scholiaste / whych vp­on this place of Titus sayth after this sort. He would not (speaking of s. Paule) haue the whole Ile of Crete / ministred and gouerned by one / but that euery one should haue hys proper charge and care / for so should Titus haue a lighter la­bor / and the people that are gouerned / should enioy greater attendance of the pa­stor / whilest he that teacheth them / doth not run about the gouernment of many congregations / but attendeth vnto one / and garnisheth that.

Now M. Doctor may see by this / that Titus (by the iudgement of the Scholiaste) was not as he fansieth / the archbyshop of all Crete / but that he had one flocke / whervpon (for the time he was there) he attended. And that where it is sayd he ordained ministers / it is nothing else / but that he was the cheefe and the moderator in the election of the ministers / as I haue declared before by ma­ny examples. And it is no maruell / although the rest graunted hym thys prehe­minence / when he had both most excellent gifts / and was a degree aboue the pa­stors / being an Euangelist.

Vnto the place of Timothe / where he willeth him not to admit an accusa­tion against an elder vnder two or three witnesses / I answer as I haue done be­fore to the place of Titus / that is / that as the ordination of the pastors is attri­buted vnto Titus and Timothe / because they gouerned and moderated that ac­tion / and were the first in it / so also is the deposing or other censures of them / and that for as much as he wryteth hys epistles vnto Timothe & Titus / he telleth them how they should behaue them selues in their office / and doth not shut out other from this censure and iudgement. And it is more agreable to the inscripti­on of the epistles / that he should say (admit not thou / or ordain not thou) wryting vnto one / then if he should say (ordaine not ye / or admit not ye) as if he should wryte to many / for so should neyther the ending agree wyth the beginning / nor the midst wyth them both. And if this be a good rule / that because Paul biddeth Timothe and Titus to iudge of the faults of the pastors / and to ordain pastors / [Page 113] therfore none else did but they: Then whereas S. Paule biddeth Timothe that 1. Tim. 4. 8. 1: he should commaund & teach / that godlines is profitable to all things / & admoni­sheth him to be an example of the whole flocke / by your reason he wil haue no o­ther of y^e mynisters of Ephesus / or of the Ile of Creta / to teach that doctrine / or to be examples to their flockes / & an hundreth such things in the Epistles of Ti­mothe and Titus / which although they be there particularly directed vnto Ti­mothe / and Titus / yet do they agree / & are common to them / with all other my­nisters / yea sometimes vnto the whole flocke.

As for Epiphanius / it is knowne of what authoritie he is in this place / when as by Aerius sides / he goeth about to pricke at the Apostle / whilest he go­eth about to confute the Apostle which maketh a distinction and difference be­twene those which the Apostle maketh one / that is / a byshop and an elder / and to spare the credite of Epiphanius / it were better lay that opinion vpon some Pseu­depiphanius, that is to say counterfaite / which we may do / not without great pro­babilitie / seeing Ad quod vult Deum. Augustine sayth / that the true Epiphanius vttereth all after a story fashion / and doth not vse any disputation / or reasoning for the truth agaynst the falshode / and thys Epiphanius is very full of argumentes and reasons / the choyse whereof M. Doctor hath taken.

And whereas M. Doctor citeth Ambrose / Caluin / and other godly wry­ters / to proue that the mynister is vnderstanded by the word elder or presbiter, he keepeth hys olde wont / by bringing stickes into the woode / and prouing alwayes that which no man denyeth: and yet with the mynister of the word / he also vn­derstandeth the elder of the church which ruleth / and doth not labor in the word. But therein is not the matter / for I doe graunt that by presbiter, the mynister of the word is vnderstanded / & yet nothing proued of that which M. Doctor would so fayne proue. It is no maruell although you take vp the authors of the admo­nition for want of logicke / for you vtter great skill your selfe in wryting / which keepe no order / but confound your reader in that thing / which euen the common logicke of the countrey / which is reason / might haue directed you in. For what a confusion of times is thys / to begin with Cyprian / and then come to Ierome and Chrysostome / and after to the scripture / and backe agayne to Ignatius / that was before Cyprian / which times are ill disposed of you / and that in a matter wherein it stode you vpon to haue obserued the order of the tymes. But as for Ignatius place it is sufficiently answered before in that which was answered to Cyprian hys place / for when he sayth the byshop hath rule ouer all / he meaneth no more all in the prouince / then in all the worlde / but meaneth that flocke & con­gregation / whereof he is byshop or mynister. And when he calleth hym prince of the priestes / although the title be to excessiue and bigge / condemned by Cypri­an and the councell of Carthage / yet he meaneth no more the prince of all in the diocese as we take it / or of the prouince / then he meaneth the Prince of all the priestes in the world: but those fellow mynisters and elders that had the rule and gouernment of that particulare church and congregation / whereof he was by­shop / as the great churches haue for the most part both elders which gouerne on­ly / and mynisters also to ayde one an other / and the principalitie that hee which they called the byshop had ouer the rest / hath bene before at large declared.

But M. Doctor doth not remember that whilest hee thus reasoneth for the authoritie of the byshoppe / hee ouerthroweth hys archbyshoppe quite and cleane / for Ignatius will haue none aboue the byshop but Christ / and hee will haue an archbyshop.

I see a man can not well serue two maisters / but eyther he must displease the one / and please the other / or by pleasing of one / offend the other. For M. Doctor would fayne please / and vpholde both / and yet hys proufes are such / that e­uery prop that he setteth vnder one / is an axe to strike at the other. But that M. [Page 114] D. delyteth alwayes wher he might fetch at y^e fountaine / to be raking in ditches / he needed not to haue gone to Iustin Martyr for Proestos, when as S. Paule 1. Tim. 5. 17. calleth the mynisters & Elders by thys title. And if thys place of Iustin make for an archbyshop / then in stead of an archbyshop in euery prouince / we shal haue one in euery congregation. For Iustin declareth there / the Leyturgie or maner of seruing God that was in euery church vsed of the Christians. And I pray you let it be considered / what is the office of that proestos, and see whether there be any resemblance in the world / betwene hym and an archbyshop. For he placeth hys office to be in preaching / in conceiuing prayers / in mynistring of the sacra­mentes. Of any commaundement which he had ouer the rest of the mynisters / or of any such priuiledges as the archbyshop hath / he maketh not one worde. It may be / that the same myght haue the preheminence of calling the rest together / and propounding the matter to the rest of the company / and such lyke as is before declared. As soone as euer you found proestos, you snatched that by and by / and went your wayes / and so deceyue your selfe and others. But if you had red the whole treatise / you should haue founde that he was proestos, of the people / for thus it is written in the same Apologie / Epeita prospheretai to Proestoti ton ad­elphon artos. Afterwarde bread is brought to the president of the brethren cal­ling the people as S. Paule doth continually brethren. And therefore these are M. Doctors argumentes oute of Martyrs place. There was a mynister which dyd stande before / or was president of the rest in euery particulare church and congregation / therefore there was an archbyshoppe ouer all the prouince. And agayne / there was one which ruled the people in euery congregation / ther­fore there was one that ruled all the mynisters through out the whole prouince. And albeit things were in great puritie in the dayes that Iustin liued / in respect of the tymes which followed / yet as there was in other things (which appeare in hys workes / and euen in the ministration of the sacramentes spoken of in that place) corruption / in that they mingled water and wine together / so euen in the ministerie / there began to peepe out some thing which went from the simplicitie of the gospel / as that the name of proestos, which was common to the elders with the ministers of the word / was (as it seemeth) appropriated vnto one.

Another of M. Doctors reasons / for to proue the archbyshop / is / that Cy­rill maketh mention of an high priest / wherunto I answere / that he that bringeth in a priest into the church / goeth about to bury our sauiour Christ / for although it myght be proued that the worde priest were the same with the Greekes pres­byteros, yet (as shall appeare in hys place) is the vse of thys word (priest) for a mynister of the gospell very daungerous. And as for hym that bringeth in an high priest into the church / hee goeth about to put our sauiour Christ out of hys office / who is proued in the Epistle to the Hebrues to be the only high priest / and Hebru. 7. that there can be no more as long as the worlde endureth. And yet if all thys were graunted / you are not yet come to that which you desire to proue / that is / an archbyshoppe. For if you looke in Theodorete / you shall fynde thys woorde 1. Lib. 3. cap. archierosyne, which signifyeth the highe priesthoode / to be nothing else but a byshoppricke / and in the. 7. chapter of that booke / and so forth dyuers tymes / you shall haue archiereus, taken for a byshop / as speaking of the councel of Nice / he sayth that there was. 318. archiereis, highe priestes. Now I thincke you wil not say there were. 318. archbyshops. If you do / you are confuted by all eccle­siasticall wryters that euer I red / which speaking of them / call them byshops.

Chrysostome followeth / which as M. Doctor sayth / ruled not only the church of Constantinople / but the churches of Thracia / Asia / and Pontus / & he sayth it out of Theodorete. But heerin it may appeare / that eyther M. Doc­tor hath a very euill conscience in falsifying wryters / & that in the poyntes which he in controuersie / or else he hath taken hys stuffe of certayne at the seconde hand [Page 115] without any examination of it at all. For heere he hath set downe in stead of (had care of the churches in Thracia. &c.) ruled the churches / the Greke is / epoieito ten promethcian, it is translated also (prospexit) so that it appeareth he fetched it neyther from Theodorite in Greeke nor in Latine. And what is thys to proue an archbyshoppe / that he had care of these churches? there is no minister but ought to haue care ouer all the churches through christendome / and to shew that care for them / in comforting or admonishing of them by wryting / or by visiting them / if the necessitie so require / and it be thought good by the churches / and leaue ob­tayned of the place where he is mynister / vppon some notable and especiall cause / being some man of singular giftes / whose learning and credite may profite much to the bringing to passe of that thing / for the which he is to be sent. After thys sort * S. Cyprian being in Affricke / had care ouer Rome in Europe / and wrote As it appea­reth by diuers epistles of his. Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 3. & 4. vnto the church there. After thys sort also was * Ireneus byshoppe of Lions / sent by the French churches vnto the churches in Phrigia. And after thys sort haue M. Caluin / and M. Beza bene sent from Geneua in Sauoy / to the chur­ches of Fraunce.

Now / if you will conclude heereupon / that Cyprian ruled the churche of Rome / or Ireneus the churches of Phrigia / or maister Caluin / or M. Beza the churches of Fraunce / or that they were byshops or archbyshops of those places / you shall but conclude as you were wont to doe / but yet all men vnderstand / that heere is nothing lesse then an archbyshop / or any such byshoppe / as we haue and vse in our church. And if so be that Chrysostome should be byshop or archbyshop of al these churches which were in al Asia / Pontus / Thracia / as you wold geue the reader to vnderstand / you make hym byshop of more churches / then euer the Pope of Rome was / when he was in hys greatest pryde / and hys Empire lar­gest. For there were sixe presidentships in Thracia / and in Asia there were a ele­uen Princes / and had seuerall regions or gouernmentes / and in Pontus as ma­ny / and if he were byshop or archbyshop of all the churches within these domini­ons / he had neede of a long spone to feede with all. It is certayne therefore / that he was byshop only of the church in Constantinople / and had an eye & a care to those other churches. And that he was byshop of one citie / or of one church / it may appeare by that which I haue before alleaged oute of the Greeke Scholi­aste vpon Titus / who citeth there Chrysostome / where it is sayd that S. Paule dyd not meane to make one ouer the whole Ile / but that euery one should haue hys proper congregation. &c. * And in an other place he sheweth the difference 3. hom. act. 6. betweene the Emperour and the byshop / that the one is ouer the world / and the other that is the byshop / is ouer one citie.

Touching Theodorete byshop of Cyrus / to let pas that which the bishops of Egipt cryed in the councell of Calcedon / that he was no bishop / it is to be ob­serued / In the 1. act. In the same act. that which the Emperoures Theodosius and Valentinian / wryte vnto Dioscorus bishop of Alexandria / that he had commaunded Theodoret byshop of Cyrus / that he should kepe hym selfe vnto hys owne church only: wherby it ap­peareth / that he medled in moe churches then was mete he should. Besides / that wanteth not suspition y^e he speaketh this of him selfe / especially when he sayth / y^e there was not in all those. 800. churches one tare / y^e is / one hypocrite or euil mā.

Now / that it may appeare what great lykelyhoode there is betwene thys Theodoret / and our Lord byshops and archbyshops / it is to be considered which he wryteth of hym selfe in the Epistle vnto Leo / that is / that he hauing bene. 26. yeares byshop / was knowne of all that dwelt in those partes / that he had neuer house of hys owne / nor field / nor halfepennie / not so much as a place to be buryed in / but had willingly contented hym selfe with a poore estate / belyke he had a ve­ry leane archbyshoppricke. And if the fat morsels of our byshopprickes & archbi­shopprickes / were taken & employed to their vses of maintenance of the pore / & of [Page 116] the mynisters / and of the vniuersities / which are the seede of the mynisterie / I thincke the heate of the disputation / and contention for archbyshops and bishops / would be cooled.

Now good reader thou hearest what M. Doctor hath bene able to take together out of the olde fathers / which he sayth are so playne in thys matter / and yet can shew nothing to the purpose. Heare also what he sayth out of the wryters of our age / all which he sayth (except one or two) are of hys iudgement / and al­low well of thys distinction of degrees.

Maister Caluin first is cited / to proue those offices of archbyshop / primate / patriarche / the names whereof he can not abyde / and as for hym he approueth only / that there should be some ▪ which when difficult causes arise / which can not bee ended in the particulare churches might referre the matters to sinodes and prouinciall councels and which myght do the offices which I haue spoken of be­fore of gathering voyces. &c.

But that he lyketh not of those dominations and large iurisdictions or at all of the byshoppes or archbyshops / which we haue now / it may appeare playn­ly enough / both in that place / when as he will haue hys wordes drawen to no o­ther then the olde byshoppes / shutting out thereby the byshoppes that now are / as also in other places / and namely vpon the Philippians / where (reasoning a­gaynst Chap. 1. thys distinction betwene pastor and byshop / and shewing that geuing the name of byshop to one man only in a church / was the occasion why he afterward vsurped domynation ouer the rest) he sayth after thys sort: In deede I graunt (sayth he) as the dispositions and manners of men are / order can not stande a­mongst the mynisters of the woorde / vnlesse one be ouer the rest / I meane (sayth he) of euery seuerall and singuler body / not of a whole prouince / much lesse of the whole worlde.

Now if you will needes haue M. Caluins archbyshop / you must not haue hym neyther ouer a prouince nor diocese / but only ouer one singuler and particu­ler congregation. How much better therefore were it for you to seeke some other shelter against the storme then maister Caluins / which will not suffer you by a­ny meanes to couer your selfe vnder hys winges / but thrusteth you out alwayes as soone as you enter vpon him forceably.

But heere I can not let passe M. Doctors ill dealing / which recyting so much of maister Caluin / cutteth hym of in the waste and leaueth quite out that which made agaynst hym / that is which maister Caluin [...]ayth in these wordes: Although (sayth he) in thys disputacion / it may not be passed ouer / that this office of archbyshop or patriarke was most rarely and seldome vsed / which dealing se­meth to proceede of a very euill conscience.

Then followeth Hemingius / who you say approueth these degrees of arch­bishop / metropolitane / byshop / archdeacon / for so you must needes meane / when you say he approueth these degrees / or els you say nothing / for there vpon is the question. Now how vntruely you speake (let it be iudged by that which follow­eth. * First he sayth that our sauiour Christ in S. Luke distinguisheth and put­teth c. 10. 3. clas. lib. Enchirid. where also a­mong the po­pish orders / he reckneth the archb. a difference / betwene the office of a Prince and the office of the minister of the church / leauing domynion to the Princes / and taking it altogether from the mynisters. Here you see / not only how he is agaynst you in your exposition in the place of S. Luke / which wold haue it nothing else but a prohibition of ambitiō / but also how at a word / he cutteth the throte of your archbyshop and byshop / as it is now vsed. And afterward speaking of y^e churches of Denmarke / he sayth they haue Christ for their head & for the outwarde discipline / they haue magistrates to punish with the sword / & for to exercise the Ecclesiasticall disciplyne / they haue bi­shops / pastors / doctors / which may keepe men vnder with the word / without v­sing any corporall punishment. Here is no mention of archbyshops / Primates [Page 117] metropolitanes. And although he sheweth that they kepe the distinction betwene byshops and ministers / against whych there hath bene before spoken: yet he sayth that the authority which they haue / is as the authority of a father / not as the po­wer of a maister / whych is far otherwise heere. For the condition of many ser­uaunts vnder their maisters / is much more free then the condition of a minister vnder hys byshop. And afterward he sheweth wherin that authority or dignity of the byshop ouer the minister lyeth / that is in exhorting of him / in chiding of hym / as he doth the lay people / and yet he will haue also the minister / although not with such authority / after a modest sort to do the same vnto the byshop. And so he concludeth / that they retain these orders / notwithstanding the anabaptists. Now let the reader iudge / whether Hemingius be truely or faithfully alledged or no / or whether Hemingius do say that they haue in their church archbishops / primates / metropolitanes / archdeacons / or whether the byshops in the churches of Denmarke / are any thing like oures. For I will omit that he speaketh there against all pomp in the ministery / all worldly superiority or highnes / because I loue not to wryte out whole pages / as M. Doctor doth out of other mens wry­tings / to helpe to make vp a boke.

M. doctor closeth vp this matter wyth M. Foxe / but eyther for feare that the place should be found that there might be answer / or for feare that M. Foxe should giue me the solution whych hath giuen you the obiection / he wold neither quote the place of the boke / nor the boke it self / he hauing wrytten diuers. You cā not speake so much good of M. Foxe / whych I will not willingly subscribe vn­to. And if it be any declaration of good will and of honor / that one beareth to an other / to read that whych he wryteth / I thinke I haue red more of him / then you. For I haue red ouer his boke of Martyrs / and so I thinke did neuer you. For if you had red so diligently in M. Foxe / as you haue ben hasty to snatch at Pag. 78. of the boke of Act. this place / he would haue taught you the forgery of these Epistles / whereout you fetch your authorities / and would haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of metropolitanes / bishops / and other degrees / whych you say sometimes had their beginnings in the apostles times / somtimes you can not tell whē / were not in Higinus time / which was a. 180. yeres after Christ. I perceiue you fear M. Foxe is an ennemy vnto your archbyshop and primate / & therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupt hym wyth hys praise / and to seeke to drawe hym / if it were possible / vnto the archbyshop / and if not / yet at the least that he would be no ennemy / if he would not / nor could not be his frend. You make me suspect that your praise is not harty / but pretended / because you do so often & so bitterly speake against all those that will not receiue the cap and surplice / and other ceremonies / wherof M. Fox declareth his great misliking. For answer vnto y^e place / because I remēber it not / nor meane not to read ouer y^e whole boke to seeke it / I say first as I said before / that there may be some thing before or after / which may geue the solution to this place / especially seeing M. Foxe in another place / prouing the 1. Tom. Act. pag. 96. Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfet / he vseth thys reason: because the fifthe Canon of the sayd Epistles / solemnely entreateth of the difference betwene pri­mates / metropolitanes / and archbyshops / whych distinction (sayth he) of titles and degrees / sauor more of ambition thē persecution. Moreouer I say / that M. Foxe wryting a story / doth take greater paine / and loketh more diligently to de­clare what is done / and in what time / and by whom / then how iustly or vniustly / how conueniently or inconueniently it is done. Last of all / if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sincerity of the gospell / I am well assured that M. Foxe / whych hath trauailed so much and so profitably to that end / will not haue hys authority or name therin to bring any preiudice. Now wil I also wyne with you / and leaue it to the iudgement of the indifferent reader / how well out of the scriptures / councels / wryters old and new / you haue proued either the lawfulnes [Page 118] at all of the names of archbishops / patriarches / archdeacons / primates / or of the lawfulnes of the office of them / and of byshops whych be in our times.

And for as much as I haue purposed to answer in one place / that which is scattered in diuers / I will heere answere halfe a shete of paper / whych is annex­ed of late vnto thys boke put forthe in the name / and vnder the credite of the B. of Salisbury. Wherin I wil say nothyng of those byting & sharpe words / which are giuen partly in the beginning / when he calleth the propounders of the propo­sition whych concerneth archbyshops and archdeacons nouices / partly in the end when he calleth them children / and the doctrine of the gospell wantonnes. &c. If he had liued / for hys learning and grauitye / and otherwyse good desertes of the church / in defending the cause therof agaynst the papistes / we coulde haue easely borne it at hys handes: nowe he is deade and layde vp in peace / it were agaynste all humanitye to dygge or to breake vp hys graue / only I wil leaue it to the con­sideration of the reader vpon those things whych are alledged / to iudge / whether it be any wantonnes or noueltye whych is confirmed by so graue testimonyes of the auncient worde of God. Vnto the place of the. 4. of the Ephesians before al­ledged / he answeareth cleane contrary to that whych M. Doctor sayth / that we haue nowe neyther Apostles / nor Euangelists / nor Prophets / wherevppon he wold conclude that that place is no perfect paterne of the ministery in the church. In deede it is true / we haue not / neyther is it nedefull that wee should. It was therfore sufficient that there were once / and for a time / so that the wante of those nowe / is no cause whye the minysteries there recited / be not sufficient for the ac­complyshment and full fynishing of the church / nor cause whye anye other miny­steries should be added / besydes those whych are there recyted.

Afterward he saith / that neither byshop nor elder are reckned in that place. The pastor is there reckened vp / and I haue shewed / that the pastor and byshop / are all one / and are but dyuers names to signifye one thyng. And as for those el­ders whych doe only gouerne / they are made mention of in other places / the apo­stles purpose being to recken vp here only / those minysteries / whych are conuer­sant in the worde as I haue before alledged / and therefore the byshop and elder whych wyth gouernment teache also are there contained.

After that / he sayeth there is no catechista, if there be a pastor / or as some thynke Doctor / there is one whych bothe can / and ought to instruct the youth / neyther doth it pertayne to any other in the churche / and publykely to teache the youth in the rudiments of religion / then vnto eyther the pastor or doctor / how so euer in some times and places / they haue made a seuerall office of it.

And where he sayth that there is neyther deacon nor reader mentioned / for the deacon I haue answeared that s. Paul speaketh there only of those functiōs whych are occupyed both in teachyng and gouernyng the churches / and therfore there was no place there to speake of a deacon / and as for the reader / it is no such office in the churche / whych the minister may not doe. And if eyther he haue not leysure / or his strength and voyce wil not serue hym / first to read some long time / and afterwarde to preache: it is an easye matter to appoynt some of the elders or deacons / or some other graue man in the church to that purpose / as it hathe bene practised in the churches in times past / and is in the churches reformed in oure dayes without making any new order or office of the ministery. Where he sayth / that by thys reason we should haue no churches / pulpits / schooles / nor vniuersi­ties: it is first easely answeared that S. Paule speaketh not in the. 4. to the E­phesians / of all things necessary for the churche / but only of all necessary ecclesia­sticall functions / whych do both teach & gouerne in the church / and then I haue already shewed that there were both churches and pulpits.

As for scholes and vniuersities / it is sufficient commaundement of them / in that it is commaunded / that bothe the magistrates and pastors should be lear­ned [Page 119] / for he that commaundeth that they shoulde be learned / commaundeth those things and those meanes / wherby they may most conueniently come to that lear­ning. And we haue also examples of them commended vnto vs in the old Testa­ment. As in the boke of the Iudges / when Debora commendeth the vniuersity Iudges. 5. 14. men / and those whych handled the pen of the wryter / that they came out to helpe in the battell against the enemies of God. And in the boke of Samuel / and of the 1. Sam. 19. 19 2. reg. 2. 3. 5. 7. Kings / where Nayothe and Bethel / Ierycho / and a place beyond Iordan / are specified places / whych were scholes or vniuersities / where the schollers of the Prophets / were brought vp in the feare of God / and good learning. The conti­nuaunce of whych scholes and vniuersities amongste the people of God / maye be easely gathered of that whych S. Luke wryteth in the Actes / where it may ap­peare Actes. 6. 9. that in Ierusalem there were certen Colledges appoynted for seuerall countrey men / so that there was one Colledge to receiue the Iewes and Prose­lites whych came out of Cilicia / an other for those y^t came out of Alexandria. &c. to study at Ierusalem. And if any man be able to shew such euidence for archby­shops and archdeacons / as these are for vniuersities and scholes / I wil not deny but it is as lawfull to haue them / as these.

Furthermore / he sayeth that the church is not gouerned by names / but by offices: so is it in deede. And if the office of an archbyshop or archdeacon can be shewed / we will not striue for the name / but for so much as all the nedefull offices of the church togither wyth their names / are mentioned in the scripture / it is tru­ly sayde / that bothe the offices and names of archbyshop and archdeacon / (being not only not contained in them / but also condēned) ought to be banished out of the churche.

Last of all / he sayth / that Anacletus (if there be any waight in his words) nameth an archb. I haue before shewed what waighte there is in his woordes / and I refuse not that he be weyghed wyth the byshops owne weightes / whych he geueth vs in the handling of the article of the supremacye / and in the. 223. and 224. pages / by the whych waightes appeareth / that thys Anacletus is not only lyght / but a plaine counterfait.

The second reason whych sayeth that the churche of God vnder the lawe / had all thyngs needefull appoynted by the commaundement of God / the byshop sayeth he knoweth not what could be concluded of it. I haue shewed before that there is nothyng les ment / then that the church vnder the gospell / should haue all those thyngs that that church had / or shoulde haue nothing / whych that had not: but thys therevpon is concluded / that the Lord whych was so carefull for that / as not to omit the least / would not be so careles for this church vnder the gospel / as to omit the greatest.

And where he sayeth / that there was then whych was called highe priest / and was ouer all the rest: he did well know that the cause therof was / because he was a figure of Christe / and dyd represent vnto the people / the cheefetye and su­perioritye of oure sauioure Christe whych was to come / and that oure sauioure Christe being come / there is nowe no cause why there should be any such prehe­minence geuen vnto one: and further / that it is vnlawfull that there shoulde be any suche / vnles it be lawfull to haue one head▪ byshop ouer all the church. For it is knowne / that that prieste was the heade priest ouer all the whole Churche / whych was during hys time vnto our sauioure Christe. And as for those titles / cheefe of the sinagogue / cheefe of the sanctuary / cheefe of the house of God / I say that that maketh muche agaynst archbyshoppes and archdeacons / for when as in steade of the sinagogue / and of the sanctuarie / and of the house of God or Tem­ple / are come particulare churches and congregations / by this reason it foloweth / that there shoulde be some cheefe / not in euery prouince or diocese / but in euery congregation: and in dede so ought there to be certen cheefe in euery cōgregation / [Page 120] whych should gouerne and rule the rest. And as for the cheefe of the families of the Leuites / and cheefe of the families of the priestes / the same was obserued in all other tribes of Israell as a ciuile thyng. And by all these princes ouer euery tribe and family / as by the Prince of the whole land / God did / as it were by di­uers liuely pictures unprint in their vnderstanding / the cheefety and domination of our sauior Christ. Moreouer these orders and pollicies touching the distribu­tion of the offices of the Leuites and priests / and touching the appoyntment of their gouernors / were done of Dauid by the aduise of the prophets / Gad & Na­than / whych receiued of the Lord by commaundement / that whych they deluie­red 2. Chro. 29. 25 to Dauid. And if so be that it can be shewed / that archbyshops and archdea­cons / came into the church by any commaundement of the Lord / then thys alle­gation hath some force / but now being not only not commaunded / but also (as I haue shewed) forbiddē / euery man doth see that this reason hath no place / but ser­ueth to the vtter ouerthrow of the archbyshop and archdeacon. For if Dauid be­ing such a notable personage / and as it were an angell of God / durst not take vp­on him to bring into the church any orders or pollicies / not only not against the word of God / but not without a precise word and commaundement of God / who shall dare to be so bold / as to take vpon him the institution of the cheefe office of the church / and to alter the pollicy that God hath established by hys seruauntes the apostles?

And where the byshop sayth / it is knowne and confessed / that there wanted many things to y^e perfection of the church of the Iewes: truely I do not know / nor can not confes / that that church wanted any thing to the perfection of that estate / whych the Lord would haue them be in / vntill the comming of our sauior Christ: and if there were any thing wanting / it was not for want of good lawes and pollicies / (wherof the question is / ) but for want of due execution of them / whych we speake not of.

For the two last reasons against the archbyshop and archdeacon / although I be well acquainted wyth diuers / that fauor this cause / yet I did neuer heare them before in my life: and I beleeue they cannot be proued to be hys reasons / whose they are supposed to be / and whych did set downe that proposition / that the byshop confuteth. Notwithstanding / the former of these two seemeth to haue a good probability / and to be grounded of that place of Logicke / that sheweth / that according as the subiect or substance of any thing is excellent / so are those things that are annexed and adioyned vnto it. But because I wold the simplest should vnderstand what is sayd or written / I will willingly abstaine from such rea­sons / the termes wherof are not easely perceiued / but of those whych be learned.

And as for the answer whych the byshop maketh / that in place of apostles / prophets / the gifts of tongues / of healing / and of gouernment / are brought in v­niuersities / scholes / byshops / and archbyshops: for scholes and vniuersities / I haue shewed / they haue bene alwayes / and therfore can not come in / to supply the roume of the apostles and prophets. And whether a man consider the schollers that learne / or the scholemaisters whych teach / or the orders appoynted for the gouernment of the scholes / they shall be found to be rather ciuill then ecclesiasti­call: and therfore can not come in stead of any ecclesiasticall ministery. If the by­shop do meane that they come in place of the gift of tongues / and knowledge of the gospell that was first geuen miraculously / I graunt it / and then it maketh nothing to this question.

As for byshops / they can not come in place of apostles or prophets / for as much as they were when the Apostles / Euangelists / and Prophets were: and are one of those ministeries / whych S. Paul mentioneth in the. 4. to the Ephe­sians / being the same that is the pastor.

There remaineth therfore the archbyshop / whych if he came in place of the [Page 121] Prophets and apostles (as the byshop sayeth) howe commeth it to pas / that the byshop sayeth by and by oute of the authoritye of Erasmus / that Titus was an archbyshop: for at that time / there was bothe apostles / prophets / and Euange­lists. If it be so therfore / that the archbyshop must supply the want of apostles. &c. howe commeth it to pas / he wayteth not hys time whilest they were deade / but commeth in / like vnto one whych is borne oute of time / and like the vntimely and hasty frute / whych is seldome or neuer wholesome. And for one to come into the apostles or prophets place / requireth the authority of him whych ordained the apostles. &c. whych is the Lord / and hys institution in hys word / whych is that whych we desire to be shewed. But heereof I haue spoken before at large. The necessity of Deanes I do not acknowledge / and I haue already spoken of them. Touching Prebendaries / I shall haue occasion to speake a worde heereafter. For Earles and Dukes / and such like titles of honor / they are ciuil / neither doth it folowe / that because there may newe titles or newe offices be brought into the ciuile gouernement / that therefore the same may be attempted in the church. For God hath left a greater liberty in instituting thyngs in the common wealth / then in the churche.

For / for so much as there be diuers common wealthes / and diuers formes of common wealthes / and all good / it falleth oute / that the offices and dignityes whych are good in one common wealth / are not good in an other / as those which are good in a Monarchie / are not good in Aristocratie / and those which are good in Aristocratie / are not good in a populare state. But that can not be sayde of the churche / whych is but one and vniforme / and hathe the same lawes and forme of gouernment throughout the worlde.

In common wealths also there are conuersions / one forme being changed into an other / whych can not be in the true church of God. As for Erasmus au­thoritye whych sayeth that Titus was an archbyshop / I haue answeared to it. And whereas Chrysostome sayeth / that the iudgement of many byshops was committed to Titus / I haue declared in what sorte that is to be vnderstanded / and yet vpon those words / the byshop can hardly conclude / that whych he doth: that Titus had the gouernment of many byshops. For it is one thing to say / the iudgement of many was committed vnto Titus / and an other thyng to say / that he had the gouernement of many.

The answer of the byshop vnto the fourth supposed reason / pertaineth vn­to an other question / that is whether ecclesiasticall persons / ought to exercise ciuil iurisdiction / whervnto I will answer by Gods grace / when I come to speake vpon occasion of M. Doctors boke of that question. In the meane season I wil desire the reader to consider / what weake grounds the archbyshop and archdea­con stand vpon / seeing that the byshop of Sarum / being so learned a man / and of so great reading / coulde say no more in their defence / whych notwythstanding in the controuersies agaynst D. Harding / is so pithy and so plentifull.

Now I haue shewed how little those things whych M. doctor bringeth / make for proufe of that wherfore he alledgeth them: I will for the better vnder­standing of the reader / set downe what were y^e causes why the archbishops were first ordained / and what were their prerogatiues / and preheminēces before other byshops / and the estate also of the old byshops / whych liued in those times / wher­in althoughe there were great corruptions / yet the church was in some tollerable estate / to the entent it may appeare / partly how little nede we haue of them now / and partly also howe greate difference there is betweene oures and them. Of the names of Metropolitane / it hath bene spoken / howe that he shoulde not be called the cheefe of priests / or the high priest / or byshop of byshops: nowe I will sette downe hys office and power whych he had / more then the byshops.

In the councell of Antioche it appeareth / that the byshop of the metropo­litane Chap. 9. [Page 122] seate / called Synodes / & propounded the matters whych were to be hand­led. &c. the archbyshop doth not nowe call Synodes / but the Prince dothe / for as much as there is no conuocation wythout a parliament / & he doth not propound the matters / and gather the voyces / but an other chosen / whych is called prolo­cutor / therfore in y^e respect that an archb. & metropolitane was first ordained / we haue no neede of an archb. or metropolitane. Againe / an other cause also appea­reth there / whych was to see that the byshoppes kepte them selues wythin their owne dioceses / and brake not into an others diocese. But first this may be done wythout an archbyshop / and then it is not done of the archb. (hym selfe geuing li­cences vnto the wandring ministers to go throughout not so few as a dosen dio­ceses) therefore the office of an archb. is not necessarye in thys respecte / and if it were / yet it must be other then it is nowe.

Againe / the cause whye the metropolitane differed from the rest / and whye Chap. 9. the calling of the Synode was geuen to hym / as it appeareth in the same coūcel / was for that the greatest concourse was to that place / and most assembly of men / whervnto also may be added / for that there was the best commodity of lodging & of vitailing / and for that / as it appeareth in other councels / it was the place and seate of the Empire. But wyth vs neyther the greatest concourse nor assemblye of men / nor the greatest commodity of lodging and vitailing / neyther yet the seate of the kingdome is in the metropolitane city / therefore wyth vs there is no suche cause of a metropolitane or archbyshop.

In the councel of Carthage / holden in Cyprians time / it appeareth that no byshop had authority ouer an other / to compell an other / or to condemne an other / but euery byshop was left at hys owne liberty to answer vnto God / and to make hys accompt vnto Christ: and if any thing were done against any bishop / it was done by the consent of all the byshops in the prouince / or as many as coulde con­ueniently assemble. Therefore Cyprian / whych was the metropolitane byshop / had then no authoritye ouer the rest / and yet then (there being no christian magi­strate / whych woulde punishe the disorders whych were committed of the chri­stian byshops) there was greatest neede / that there shoulde haue bene some one / whych might haue had the correction of the rest. If therefore when there was moste neede of thys absolute authoritie / there neyther was / nor myght be anye suche / it followeth that nowe we haue a Christian magistrate / whych maye and oughte to punishe the disorders of all Ecclesiasticall persons / and may and ought to call them to accoumpt for their faultes / that there shoulde be no suche neede of an archbyshop.

The moderation of their authority in the auncient times may appeare / first by a Canon whych is falsly geuen to the apostles / being as it is like a Canon of the councell of Antioche / wherin although it ordaineth one primate in euery na­tion 34. canon. ouer the rest / and will not suffer any great matter to be done wythout him / as also will not suffer him to do any thing wythout the rest / yet euery B. might do that / whych appertained vnto hys own parish / wythout hym / and he nothing to do wyth hym in it. But as it seemeth / the meaning of the Canon was / that if there were any waighty matter to be concluded for all the churches in the natiō / then the byshops of euery parish should not enterprise any thing without calling hym to counsell. Now we see that the archb. medleth with that whych euery by­shop doth in hys owne diocese / and hath hys visitations for that purpose / & will take any matter out of their hands / concludeth also of diuers matters / neuer ma­king the byshops once priuy to hys doings.

Higinus / or as some thincke Pelagius (I speake heere as Platina repor­teth Platina cap. Higin. not thincking that in Higinus time / there was any Metropolitane) ordai­ned that no Metropolitane should condemne any byshop / onles the matter were first bothe harde and discussed by the byshoppes of that prouince / at what time / [Page 123] and after a great while / a bishop was the same we cal a minister. Now the arch­byshop will wythout any further assistance or discussion by others suspend hym / and in the ende also throwe him oute of hys charge / and if he haue the same au­thority ouer a byshop / as a byshop ouer the minister (as it is sayd) he may do the like vnto hym also.

The councell of Antioche ordained / that if the voyces of the byshops were Canon. 17. euen / and that if halfe did condemne hym / and halfe cleare hym / that then the me­tropolitane byshop shoulde call of the nexte prouince some other byshops / whych should make an end of the controuersy. Wherby appeareth that the Metropoli­tane had so small authority and power ouer and aboue the rest / that he had not so much as the casting voyce / when bothe sides were euen / and therefore it appea­reth / that besides the names of metropolitane / there was little or no resemblance betweene those that were then / and those whych be now.

Now / to consider how the byshops whych are now / differ from the byshops whych were in times past / I must call to thy remembrance (gentle reader) that whych I haue spoken before / which was that then there was / as appeareth out of Cyprian and Ierome / and others / one byshop in euery parishe or congregati­on: nowe one is ouer a thousande / then euery byshop had a seuerall church where he preached and ministred the sacraments: nowe he hath none / then he ruled that one churche (as I shewed oute of Ierome) in common wyth the Elders of the same: nowe he ruleth a thousande by hym selfe / shutting oute the ministers / to whome the rule and gouernement belongeth / then he ordained not any minister of the churche / except he were first chosen by the presbiterie, and approued by the people of that place wherevnto he was ordained: nowe he ordaineth where there is no place voyde / and of hys priuate authority / wythout either choise or appro­bation of presbyterie or people: then he excommunicated not / nor receiued the ex­cōmunicated / but by sentences of the eldership / and consent of the people / as shall appeare afterward: nowe he dothe bothe.

And thus you see that contrary to the woorde of God / he hathe gotten into hys owne hande / and pulled to him selfe / bothe the preheminence of the other mi­nisters / and the liberties of the church / whych God by his word had geuen. And Hispal. Con­cil. can. 7. as for the offices wherein there is any laboure or trauaile / those they haue tur­ned vnto the other ministers / as for example in times past it was not lawfull for hym that was then an elder / to preache or minister the sacraments in the presence of the byshop / because the bishop him selfe should do it / and now those which they call elders / may preach and minister the sacraments by the byshops good licence / although he be present.

Now if you will also consider how much the Lordship / pompe / and stateli­nes of the byshops in our dayes / differ from the simplicity of them in times past / I will geue you also a taste thereof / if first of all I shewe the beginning / or as it were the fountaine wherevpon the pompe grewe / whych was / when in steade of hauing a byshop in euery parishe and congregation / they began to make a bishop of a whole diocese / and of a thousand congregations.

In an epistle of ʒacharie vnto Pope Boniface / it is thus wrytten: it hath Concil. tom. 3. epi. zach. papae ad Bonif. bene oftentimes decreed / that there shoulde not be a byshop appoynted in euerye village or little citie / least they should waxe vile through the multitude: whereby it bothe appeareth / that there was wonte to be a byshop in euery parishe / and vp­on howe corrupte and euill consideration one byshoppe was sette ouer a whole diocese. No doubte those that were authoures of thys / had learned too well our olde prouerb / the fewer the better cheare / but the more byshops the meryer it had bene wyth Gods people. And they might wyth as good reason hinder the sunne from shining in al places / & the raine from falling vpon al grounds / for feare they should not be set by / being common / as to bring in such a wicked decree / wherby [Page 124] vnder pretence of deliuering the byshop from contempt / they sought nothing else but an ambitious and stately Lordshyp ouer those whych had not that title of bi­shop that they had / althoughe they did the office of a byshop better then they dyd. And what intollerable presumption is thys / to chaunge the institution of God / as though he whych ordained not one only / but some nomber more or les of by­shops in euery church / did not sufficiently foresee / that the multitude and plentye of byshops coulde breede no contempt of the office. And it may be as well ordai­ned that the children of pore men shoulde not call them that begate them / fathers and mothers / but only the childrē of the rich / and of noble / least that if euery man that hathe children / shoulde be called a father / fathers should be sette nothyng by. And heere let vs obserue by what degrees and staires Sathan lifted the childe of perdition vnto that proude title of vniuersall byshop. First / where the Lorde did ordaine that there shoulde be diuers pastors / elders / or byshops in euery con­gregation / Sathan wrought first that there should be but one in euery churche: thys was no doubt the first step. Afterwardes he pushed further / and stirred vp diuers not to content them selues to be byshops of one church / but to desire to be byshops of a diocese / whervnto although it seemeth that there was resistance (in that it is sayd that it was decreed often) yet in the end this wicked attempt pre­uailed / and thys was an other step. Then were there archbishops of whole pro­uinces / whych was the third stayer vnto the seat of antichriste. Afterwards they were Patriarks of one of the .iiij. corners of the whole world / the whole church being assigned to the iurisdiction of fower / that is to saye of the Romaine / Con­stantinopolitane / Antiochene / and Alexandrine byshops. And these fower stay­ers being layd of Sathan / there was but an easy stride for the B. of Rome / into that chaire of pestilence / wherin he nowe sitteth. Hauing now showed howe thys Lordly estate of the byshop began / and vpon what a rotten ground it is builded / I come to shew how farre the byshops in our time are / for their pompe and out­ward statelines / degenerated from the byshops of elder times.

And heere I call to remembraunce / that whych was spoken of the poore estate of Basile and Theodorete: and if M. Doctor will say (as he doth in deede in a certaine place) that thē was a time of persecution / and this is a time of peace: it is easely answeared / that although Basill were vnder persecution / yet Theo­dorete liued vnder good emperors. But that shall appeare better by the Canons / whych were rules geuen for the byshops to frame them selues by.

In the. 4. councell of Carthage it is decreed / that the byshops should haue 14. canon. It calleth it hospitiolum. 15. canon. a little house neare vnto the church: what is thys compared wyth so many faire large houses / and wyth the princely palace of a byshop? And in the same councel it is decreed that he shoulde haue the furniture and stuffe of hys house after the commen sorte / and that hys table and diet should be pore / and that he should get him estimation by faithfulnes and good conuersation.

And in an other councell / that the byshops shoulde not giue them selues to 5. canon. Con­cil. Tyronensis. feastes / but be content wyth a little meate. Let these byshops be compared wyth oures / whose chambers shine wyth gilt / whose walles are hanged wyth clothes of Auris / whose cupbordes are loden wyth plate / whose tables and diets are fur­nished wyth multitude and diuersity of dishes / whose daily dinners are feastes: Let them I say be compared together / and they shall be founde so vnlike / that if those olde byshops were aliue / they wold not know each other. For they would thinke that oures were princes / and oures woulde thinke that they were some hedge priests / not worthy of their acquaintance or fellowshyp.

In the same councell of Carthage / it was decreed / that no byshop sitting 34. canon. in any place / should suffer any minister or elder to stand. Nowe I will report me to themselues how thys is kept / and to the pore ministers whych haue to do with them / and come before them.

The byshops in times past had no tayle nor trayne of men after them / and thought it a slaunder to the gospell to haue a number of men before and behynde them. And therefore is Paulus Sam of atenus noted as one that brought relygion Euseb. lib. 7. c. 30. into hatred / and as one that seemed to take delight rather to be a captaine of two hundreth / then a byshoppe / because he had gotten him a sort of seruing men to waight on hym. An other example not vnlyke and likewyse reprehended is in Ruffine of one Gregory a byshop. Now in our dayes it is thought a commenda­tion Ruf. 1. lib. cap. 23. to the byshop / a credite to the gospell / if a byshop haue 30. 40. 60. or moe wayting of hym / some before some behynde / whereof three partes of them (set a­part the carying of a dishe vnto the table) haue no honest or profitable calling to occupy themselues in two houres of the day / to y^e filling of the church and commō wealth also with all kynde of disorders and greater incommodities / then I minde to speake of / because it is not my purpose.

And heere I will note an other cause / which brought in this pompe and princely estate of byshoppes / wherin although I will say more in a worde for the pompeous estate / then M. Doctor hath done in all hys treatise / yet I will shew that although it were more tollerable at the first / now it is by no meanes to be borne with. * In the ecclesiasticall story we read that the inscriptions of dyuers Theo. li. 5. c. 8. epystles sent vnto byshops were timiotatois kyriois. We read also of aspasticon oicon house of salutations / which Ambrose byshop of Millain had. As for the ti­tle Li. eodem. cap. 18. of (most honorable Lordes) it was not so great nor so stately as the name of a Lord or knight in our country / for all those that know the maner of the speach of the Grecians do well vnderstand / how they vsed to call euery one of any meane countenaunce in the common wealth where he lyued kyrion / that is Lorde / so we see also the Euangelistes vse the worde Kyrios to note a meane person as when Mary in the. 20. of Iohn / thinking that our sauiour Christ had bene the keper of the garden calleth hym (Kyrion). So likewise in Fraunce they call euery one that is gentilman / or hath any honest place Monseur, and so they will say also fa­inng your honour. Now we know thys word (Lord) in our countrey is vsed o­therwise / to note some great personage / eyther by reason of birth or by reason of some high dignitie in the common wealth / which he occupyeth: and therfore those titles although they were somewhat excessiue / yet were they nothing so swelling and stately as oures are.

And as touching Ambrose house / albeit the word doth not employ so great gorgeousnes nor magnificence of an house as the palaces and other magnificall buildinges of our byshoppes: yet the cause whereupon thys rose / doth more ex­cuse Ambrose / who being taken from great wealth and gouernment in the com­mon wealth / geuing ouer hys office / dyd retayne hys house and that which hee had gotten.

But our byshops doe maynteyne thys pompe and excesse / of the charges of the church / with whose goodes a great number of idle loytering seruing men are mayntayned / which ought to be bestowed vpon the ministers / which want neces­sary finding for their families / and vpon the poore / and mayntenance of the vni­uersities. As for these riotous expences of the church goodes / when many other mynisters want / and of making great dynners and entertayning great Lordes and maiestrates / and of the answere to them that say they do helpe the church by thys meanes / I will referre the reader to that which Ierome wryteth in a cer­tayne Ad nepotian [...] monachum. place where thys is handled more at large. By thys which I haue cyted it appeareth / what was one cause of thys excesse and stately pompe of the by­shops / namely that certeine noble and rich men / being chosen to the ministerie and lyuing somewhat like vnto the former estates wherein they were before / others also assayed to be like vnto them: as we see in that poynt the nature of man is too ready to follow / if they see any example before theyr eyes. But there is no [Page 126] reason because Ambrose and such lyke dyd so / therefore our byshops shoulde do it of the churches costes. Nor because Ambrose and such like dyd tary in their trim houses which they had built them selues of theyr owne charge before they were byshops / that therefore they shuld come out of theyr chambers or narow houses / into courtes and palaces builded of the churches costes.

An other reason of thys pompe and statelynes of the byshoppes was / that which almost brought in all poyson and popishe corruption into the church / and that is a foolish emulation of the maners and fashions of the Idolatrous nati­ons. For as thys was the craft of sathan to draw away the Israelites from the true seruice of God / by theyr fond desire they had to conforme them selues to the fashyons of the gentiles: so to punish vnthankefull receiuing of the gospell / and to fulfill the Prophesies touching the man of sinne / the Lord suffered those that pro­fessed Christ to corrupt theyr wayes by the same sleyght of the Deuill.

Galerianus Maximinus the Emperor to the end that he myght promote the Euseb. 8. cap. 15 Idolatry and superstition whereunto he was addicted / chose of the choysest ma­gistrates to be priestes / and that they myght be in great estimation gaue eche of them a trayne of men to follow them. And the christians and christian Empe­rours / thinking that that would promote the christian relygion that promoted superstition / and not remembring that it is often times abhomynable before God / which is esteemed in the eyes of men / endeuoured to make theyr byshops encoun­ter and match with those Idolatrous priestes / and to cause that they should not Luke. 16. 15. be inferior to them in wealth and outward pompe. And therfore I conclude that seing the causes and fountaynes from whence thys pompe and statelynes of by­shops haue come / are so corrupt and naught / the thing it selfe which hath rysen of such causes can not be good.

And thus will I make an end / leauing to the consideration and indifferent waying of the indifferent reader / how true it is that I haue before propounded / that our Archbyshops / Metropolitanes / Archdeacons / Byshops / haue besides the names almost nothing common with those which haue bene in elder tymes / before the sunne of the gospell began to be maruellously darkned / by the stincking mistes which the deuill sent forth out of the bottomles pit to blynde the eyes of men / that they shoulde not see the shame and nakednes of that purpled whore / which in the person of the cleargy / long before she gat into her seate prepared her selfe by paynting her wrythen face / with the couloures of these gorgeous titles and with the shew of magnifycall and worldly pompe. For the deuill knew well enough / that if he should haue sette vp one only byshoppe in that seate of perditi­on / and left all the rest in that simplicitie wherein God had appoynted them / that hys eldest sonne shoulde neyther haue had any way to gette into that / and when he had gotten it / yet being as it were an owle amongst a sort of birdes / shoulde haue bene quickly discouered.

But I haue done / only thys I admonishe the reader that I doe not allow of all those thinges which I before alleaged in the comparison betwene our Archbyshoppes and the Archbyshops of olde tyme / or our byshoppes and theirs. Only my entent is to shew that although there were corruptions / yet in respect of ours they be much more tollerable: and that it might appeare how smale cause there is that they should alleage theyr examples to confirme the Archbyshops and Byshops that now are.

Concerning the offices of commissionership and how vnmeete it is that mi­misters of the worde should exercise them / and how that the worde of God doth not permitte any such confusion of offices / there shalbe by Gods grace spoken of it afterwarde.

To your answere also vnto the places of S. Mathew and Luke / the reply is made before. The place of the fourthe of the first to the Corinthyans / is well [Page 127] alledged / for it teacheth a moderate estymation of the mynisters / and a meane be­twene the contempt and excessiue estymation / neyther can there be any redyer way to breede that disorder which was amongst the Corinthyans / as to say I holde of such a one / and I of such a one / and I of such an other / then to sette vp cer­tayne mynisters in so hyghe Titles and great shew of worldly honoure. For so commeth it to passe / that the people will saye / I beleeue my Lord / and my Lord archbyshoppe / whatsoeuer oure parson say / for they bee wyse men and learned / as wee see it came to passe amongst the Corrinthyans. For the Apostles be­cause they hadde a shewe and outwarde pompe of speache / they caryed away the people. For althoughe Saynt Paule sayeth that some sayde / I holde of 1. Cor. 4. 6. Paule / I holde of Apollo / I of Cephas / yet as it appeareth in an other place / they helde one of thys braue eloquent teacher / an other of that. For hee trans­lated these speaches vnto hym and hys fellowes by a fygure. All that rule is ty­rannycall / whiche is not lawfull / and is more then it oughte to bee / and therfore the place of Saynt Peter is fitly alleaged / whereof also I haue spoken some thing before.

You are you say of Hemingius mynde / and thincke that thys opynion smel­leth of Anabaptisme / I haue shewed how you haue depraued and corrupted He­mingius / and desire you to shew some better reason of your opynion / autos ephe, will not suffice vs. You say / that if we had once obtayned equalitie amongst the cleargie / we would attempt it in the laitie.

In what starre doe you see that Maister Doctor? Moyses sayth / that if a Deut. 18. 22. man speake of a thing to come / and it come not to passe as he hath spoken / that that man is a false Prophet / if your prophesie come not to passe / you know your iudgement already out of Moyses.

The Pharisies when our sauiour Christ inueighed agaynst their ambyti­on / accused hym that he was no freende to Cesar / and went about to discredite Luk. 23. 2. hym with the cyuill Magistrate / you shall apply it your selfe / you will needes make the Archbyshoppe. &c. neyghboures vnto the cyuill Magistrates / and yet they almost dwell as farre a sonder as Rome and Ierusalem / and as Syon and S. Peters Church there / so that the house of the archbyshoppe may bee burnt sticke and stone / when not so much as the smoke shall approche the house of the cyuill magistrate.

In the. 116. page / for the authoritie of the archbyshoppe / is alleaged the nynthe Canon of the Councell of Antioch / which I haue before alleaged / to proue how farre different the authoritie of the Metropolitane in those times was from that which is now. For there the Councell sheweth that euery Byshoppe in hys Diocese / hath the ordering of all matters within the circuite thereof / and therfore the meaning of the Councell to bee / that if there be any affaires that touche the whole Churche many lande / that the Byshoppes shoulde doe nothing without making the Metropolitane priuy / as also the Metropolitane myght doe nothing without making the other Byshops a counsell of that which he attempted / which maister Doctor doth cleane leaue out.

And if thys authoritie which the councell geueth to the Metropolitane / be­ing nothing so excessiue as y^e authorytie of our Metropolitanes now / had not bene ouer much / or had bene iustifiable / what needed men father thys Canon (which was ordayned in thys councell) of the Apostles / for the seeking falsly of the name of the Apostles / to geue creadite vnto thys Canon / doth cary with it a note of e­uill and of shame / which they woulde haue couered as it were with the garment of the Apostles authoritie.

And in the hundreth twentie and three page / to that which Maister Bucer sayeth / that in the Churches there hath bene one which hath beene cheefe ouer the rest of the mynisters / if he meane one cheefe in euery particulare churche / or [Page 128] one cheefe ouer the mynisters of dyuers churches meeting at one Synode / and cheefe for the time / and for such respectes as I haue before shewed / then I am of that mynde which he is: And if he meane any other cheefe / or after any other sort / I deny that any such cheefety was from the Apostles tymes / or that any suche cheefetie pleaseth the holye ghoste / whereof I haue before shewed the proufes.

And wheras M. Bucer seemeth to allow / that the name of a byshop / which the holy ghost expresly geueth to all the ministers of the word indifferently / was appropriated to certen cheefe gouernoures of the church / I haue before shewed by dyuers reasons / how that was not done without great presumption and ma­nifest daunger / and in the end great hurt to the church.

And if M. Doctor delyght thus to oppose mens authoritie to the authoritie of the holy ghost / and to the reasons which are grounded out of the scripture / M. Caluin doth openly misselyke of the making of that name proper and peculiar to certayne / which the holy ghost maketh common to moe. And whereas of M. Caluines wordes / which sayth that there be degrees of honor in the mynistery / M. Doctor would gather an archbyshop / if he had vnderstanded that an Apostle is aboue an Euangelist / an Euangelist aboue a pastor / a pastor aboue a doctor / and he aboue an elder that ruleth only / he needed neuer to haue gone to the popish Hierarchie / to seeke hys dyuersities of degrees / which he myght haue founde in S. Paule. And whereas vpon M. Caluines words / which sayeth that Paule was one of the cheefe amongst the Apostles / he would seeme to conclude an arch­byshop amongst the byshops / he should haue remembred / that S. Paules cheef­tie amongst the Apostles / consisted not in hauing any authoritie or domynion o­uer the rest / but in labouring and suffering more then the rest / and in giftes more excellent then the rest.

Now where as hee sayeth / that we desire to pull the rule from others / that the rule myght be in oure handes / and we myght doe what we list / and that we seeke to wythdraw oure selues from controlement of Prince / and Byshoppe / and all. Firste / hee may learne if hee will / that wee desire no other authoritie then that / which is to the edifying of the church / and which is grounded of the word of God: which if any mynister shall abuse to hys gayne or ambytion / then he ought to abyde not only the controlement of the other mynisters / yea of the bre­thren / but also further the punishment of the Magistrates according to the quan­titie of the faulte.

And seeing you charge the brethren so sore / you must be put in remembrance / that thys vnreasonable authoritie ouer the rest of the mynisters and clergy / came to the byshops and archbyshops / when as the Pope dyd exempt hys shauelinges from the obedience / subiection / and iurisdiction of the Princes: now therfore that we be ready to geue that subiection vnto the Prince / and offer our selues to the Princes correction in things wherein we shall doe a misse / doe you thincke it an vnreasonable thing / that we desire to bee disburdened of the byshops and archby­shops yoke / which the Pope hath layde vpon our neckes?

And in the. 207. page vnto the middest of the 214. page / thys matter is a­gayne handled / where first M. Doctor would draw the place of Galathians the second / to proue an archbyshop / and that by a false translation / for hoi dokountes / which is (they that seemed or appeared) he hath translated (they y^e are the cheefe) & although the place of the Galathians may be thought of some not so pregnant / nor so full agaynst the archbyshop / yet all must needes confesse / that it maketh more against him then for him. For S. Paules purpose is to proue there / that he was not inferioure to any of the Apostles / & bringeth one argument thereof / that he had not his gospel from them / but from Christ immediatly / & therfore if the a­postles that were estemed most of / and supposed by the Galathians & others to be [Page 129] the cheefe / had no superioritie ouer S. Paule / but were equall wyth hym / it fol­loweth that there was none that had rule ouer the rest. And if there needed no one of the Apostles to be ruler ouer the rest / there seemeth to be no neede / that one byshoppe should rule ouer the rest. But that I run not backe to that I haue handled before / I will not heere so much vrge the place / as I will not doe also that of the Hebrues which followeth / and yet the argument is stronger / then that M. Doctor coulde answere. For if the wryter to the Hebrues / doe proue our sauiour Christes vocation to be iust and lawfull / because hys calling was contayned in the scriptures / as appeareth in the 5. and 6. verse / then it followeth that the calling of the archbishop which is not comprehended there / is neither iust nor lawfull. For that no man (sayth the apostle) taketh that honour vnto hym selfe / but he that is called of God. &c. But I say / hauing before sufficiently spo­ken of the reasons which ouerthrow the archbyshoppe / I will let passe these and other places / answearing only that which M. Doctor bringeth for the establish­ment of them. He sayth therefore afterwarde / that although one man be not able to be byshop ouer all the church / yet he may be byshop ouer a whole diocese / or of a prouince. Now if I wold say the one is as impossible as the other / & for proofe thereof alleage that which the Philosophers say / that as there are no degrees in that which is infinite / so that of thinges which are infinite / one thing can not be more infinite then an other / so there are no degrees in impossibilitie / that of thinges which are impossible / one thyng shoulde bee more impossible then an o­ther: If I shoulde thus reason / I thincke I shoulde putte you to some payne. But I will not draw the reader to suche thorney and subtile questyons / it is enough for vs / that the one and the other be impossible / although one shoulde bee more impossible then the other. And that it is impossible for one man to bee by­shoppe ouer a whole prouince / or ouer a whole dyocese / I leaue it to bee consi­dered of that which is before sayde in the discription of the office of a byshoppe / pastor / or minister / where I speake of the necessitie of the residence of the byshop in hys church.

As a Prince may rule a whole realme / such as Fraunce / or Englande / so may he rule the whole world by officers and magistrates appoynted vnderneath hym: And there haue bene dyuers Princes / which haue had as many landes vnder their power / as the Pope hath had churches / and although it be somewhat incōuenient / yet I know not why they might not so haue / comming lawfully by them. Now I woulde gladly heare whether you woulde say the same of a by­shoppe / and if you dare not / then why doe you bring the similitude of the gouern­ment of a Prince ouer a lande / to proue that an archbyshop may be ouer a whole prouince. M. Doctor dare boldly say / that there may be one byshop ouer a whole prouince / but he dare not say that there may be a byshop ouer the whole Church. But what better warrant for the one / then for the other? Agayne / if the whole church be in one prouince or in one realme / which hath bene / and is not impossi­ble to be agayne / if there may be now one byshop ouer a realme or prouince / then there may be one byshop ouer all the church / so that in trauayling with an arch­byshop / he hath brought forth a Pope.

But he sayth that an archbyshop hath not the charge of gouernment ouer the whole prouince generally / but in cases exempted / & so may doe it more easely: But he should haue remembred / that he assigned before the offices of archbyshop & byshop / to be in all those things / which other ministers are / & that besides those offices / he geueth them particulare charges. So that where the office of the mi­nister is but to preach / pray / & minister the sacraments in hys parish / the office of archbyshop & bishop / is to do the same / and more in the whole prounice or diocese. And so it followeth that it is easyer for a minister to discharge his duetie in hys parish / then for an archbyshop or byshop to discharge their dueties in any one pa­rishe [Page 130] of their prouince or diocese. For they haue in euery parish more to doe / and greater charge / then the mynister of the paryshe hath / then much lesse are they a­ble to doe their dueties in all the paryshes of theyr prouinces or dyocese.

After M. Doctor translateth out of M. Caluin / the papistes reasons for the supremacy of the Pope / and M. Caluines solutions. For what purpose hee knoweth / I can not tell / vnles it be to blot paper / I know not what he shoulde meane / and the quarell also which he picketh / to translate thys place / is yet more strange. For he sayth that the authors of the admonition / borowed their argu­mentes from the papistes / when the contrary is true / that they vse the reasons which they of the gospell vse agaynst the supremacy of the pope / to ouerthrow the archbyshoppe. And maister Doctor doth vse reasons to defende the archby­shop / which the papistes vse to mayntayne the Pope. For M. Doctor woulde proue / that for because there is one king ouer a realme / therefore there may be one byshop ouer a prouince / and the papistes vse the same reason to proue the Pope to be a byshop of the whole church. Shew now one reason / that the authors of the admonition brought of the papistes / to proue that there should be no archby­shop. But now I perceiue hys meaning / and that is / that he thought to gette some comfort for the archbishop in M. Caluins solutions made vnto the papistes reasons for the supremacy: and therfore he hath haled and pulled in as it were by the shulders / thys disputation betwene the protestants and the papistes touching the supremacy. And what is it that M. Caluin sayth for the archbyshop? It hath bene before shewed / what his iudgement was touching hauing one mynister o­uer all the mynisters of a prouince / and that he doth simply condemne it in hys commentary vpon the first chap. of the Phillippians. Now let it be considered / whether in these sentences he hath sayd any thing against hym selfe. The papistes obiect that for so much as there was one high priest in Iury ouer all the church / therfore there should be one byshop ouer all. To whom M. Caluin answeareth / that the reason followeth not: for sayth he / there is no reason to extend that to all the world / which was profitable in one nation. Heereupon M. Doctor would conclude that M. Caluine allowath one archbyshop ouer a whole prouince.

If one going about to proue that he may haue as many wiues as hee list / woulde alledge Iacob for an Example which had two wyues: and Maister Doctor should answere and say / that although hee myght haue two wyues / yet it followeth not that he may haue as many as he list / would not Maister Doctor thinke that he had great iniurye / if a man should conclude of these wordes / that hys opynion is that a man may haue two wyues? I thinke that he would sup­pose that he had great wrong / and yet thus would he conclude of Maister Cal­uines wordes in thys first sentence / whereas in deede M. Caluine declareth a little after / a speciall reason why there was but one high priest in the whole land of Iury / which is because he was a figure of Christ / and that therby shuld be shadowed out hys sole meditation betwene God & his church. And therefore sheweth y^e forsomuch as there is none to represent or figure our sauiour Christ / that his iudgement is / that as there shoulde be no one ouer all the churches / so should there be no one ouer any nation. To the papistes obiecting for the supre­macy / that S. Peter was the prince & cheefe of the apostles / M. Caluin answe­reth / first by denying that Peter was so / and bringeth many places to proue y^t he was equall to the other apostles. Afterward he sayth / although it be graunted / that Peter was cheefe / yet followeth it not because one may beare rule ouer twelue being but a few in number / that therefore one may rule ouer an hundreth thousand / & that it followeth not / that that which is good amongst a few / is forth with good in all the world. Now let all men iudge / with what conscience & trust / M. Doct. cyteth M. Caluin / for to proue the office of the archbyshop. But I maruell that he could not also see that / which M. Caluin wryteth in the next sen­tence [Page 131] almost / where he sayth that Christ is only the head of the church / and that the church doth cleaue one to an other vnder his domynion: but by what meanes? according (sayth he) to the order and forme of pollicy which he hath prescribed / but he hath prescribed no such forme of pollicy / that one byshop should be ouer all the mynisters and churches in a whole diocese / or one archbyshop ouer all the mi­nisters and churches in a whole prouince / therefore thys forme of pollicy which is by archbyshops / and such byshops as we haue / is not the meanes to knitte vs one to an other in vnitie vnder the domynion of Christ. Touching the titles and names of honor which are geuen to the Ecclesiasticall persones with vs / and how that princes and cyuill magistrates may and ought to haue the title / which can not be geuen to the mynisters / I haue spoken before / and therefore of archby­shops / archdeacons / and the lord byshops thus farre.

To the next section contayned in the. 77. 78. and a peece of the. 79. page.

BEfore I come to speake of prayers / I will treate of the faults that are com­mitted almost thrughout the whole Leyturgy / & publike seruice of the church of England. Whereof one is that / which is often obiected by the authors of the admonition / that the forme of it / is taken from the church of Antichrist / as the reading of the Epistles and Gospels so cutte & mangled / as the most of the pray­ers / the maner of mynistring the Sacraments / of Mariage / of Buriall / Confir­mation / translated as it were word for word / sauing that the grosse erroures and manifest impieties be taken away. For although the formes & ceremonies which they vsed / were not vnlawfull / and that they contayned nothing which is not a­greeable to the word of God (which I would they dyd not) yet notwithstanding / neyther the worde of God / nor reason / nor the examples of the eldest churches both Iewishe and christian / doe permitte vs to vse the same formes and ceremo­nies / being neyther commaunded of God / neyther such / as there may not as good as they / and rather better be established.

For the word of God I haue shewed before / both by the example of the a­postles conforming the Gentiles vnto the Iewes in their ceremonies / & not con­trariwise the Iewes to the Gentiles / & by that the wisedom of God hath thought Act. 15. 20. it a good way to keepe hys people from the infection of idolatry and superstition / to seuere them from idolaters by outwarde ceremonies / and therefore hath for­bidden them to do things which are in them selues very lawfull to be done. Leuit. 19. 27. Deu. 22. 11. 12 Leuit. 11. Deut. 14. 2 Exhes. 2. 14.

Now I will adde thys further / that when as the Lord was carefull to se­uere them by ceremonies from other nations / yet was he not so carefull to seuere them from any / as from the * Egiptiās amongst whom they liued / & from those nations which were next neighbors vnto them / because from them was the grea­test feare of infection. Therefore by this constant & perpetuall wisedome which God vseth to keepe his people from idolatry / it followeth / y^e the religion of God / Leuit. 18. 3. Deut. 17. 16. should not only in matter & substance / but also (as far as may be) informe & fashi­on differ from y^e of the idolaters / & especially the papistes which are round about vs / and amongst vs. For in deede it were more safe for vs to conforme our indif­ferent ceremonies to the Turkes which are far of / then to the papistes which are so neare.

Common reason also doth teach / that contraries are cured by their contra­ryes: now Christianitie and Antichristianitie / the gospell and popery / be contra­ries / therefore antichristianitie must be cured not by it selfe / but by that which is (as much as may be) contrary vnto it: So that a medled & mingled estate of the order of the gospell / & the ceremonies of popery / is not the best way to banish po­pery. And therfore as to abolishe y^e infection of false doctrine of the papistes / it is necessary to establish a diuers doctrine / & to abolish the tirāny of y^e popish gouern­ment / necessary to plant the discipline of Christ: so to heale y^• infection y^• hath crept [Page 132] into mens myndes by reason of the popish order of seruice / it is meete that the o­ther order were put in the place thereof. Philosophie which is nothing else but reason / teacheth / that if a man will draw one from vice which is an extreeme vn­to vertue / which is the meane / that it is the best way to bring hym as far from that vice as may be / and that it is safer and lesse harme for him to be led some­what too farre / then he shuld be suffered to remayne within the borders and con­tines of that vice wherewith he is infected. As if a man would bring a droncken man to sobrietie / the best and nearest way is to cary hym as farre from hys ex­cesse in druicke as may be / and if a man could not keepe a meane / it were better to fault in prescribing lesse then he shoulde drincke / then to faulte in geuing hym more then he ought. As we see to bring a sticke which is crooked / to be straight / we doe not only bow it so farre vntill it come to be straight / but we bende it so far / vntill we make it so crooked of the other side / as it was before of the first side / to thys end / that at the last it may stand straight / and as it were in the mid way be­twene both the crookes / which I do not therfore speake / as though we ought to abolishe one euill and hurtfull ceremony for an other / but that I would shew / how it is more daungerous for vs that haue bene plunged in the mire of Popery / to vse the Ceremonies of it / then of any other idolatrous and superstitious ser­uice of God. Thys wisedome of not conforming it selfe vnto the ceremonies of the Idolaters in things indifferent / hath the church followed in times passed.

Tertullian sayth / O sayth he / better is the relygion of the heathen / for they Libro de Ido­latria. vse no solemnitie of the Christians / neyther the Lordes day / neyther the Pente­coste / and if they knew them / they woulde haue nothing to doe with them / for they would be afrayd / least they should seeme Christians / but we are not afrayd to be called heathen.

Constantine the Emperor speaking of the keeping of the feaste of Easter / Euse .li. 3. c. 17. sayth that it is an vnworthy thing to haue any thing common with that most spitefull company of the Iewes. And a little after he sayth / that it is most absurd and agaynst reason / that the Iewes should vaunt and glory / that the Christians Socr. 1. li. ca. 9. could not keepe those things without their doctrine. And in an other place it is sayd after thys sort: It is conuenient so to order the matter / that we haue nothing common with that nation.

The Councelles although they dyd not obserue them selues alwayes in making of decrees thys rule / yet haue kept thys consideration continually in ma­king theyr lawes / that they would haue the christians differ from others in their ceremonies.

* The councell of Laodicia / which was afterward confirmed by the sixthe Tom. 1. conc. Laod. cano. 38. generall councell decreed / that the Christians should not take vnleauened breade of the Iewes / or communicate with their impietie.

* Also it was decreed in an other councell / that they should not decke theyr 2. Tom. Braccar canon. 73. houses with baye leaues and greene bowes / because the Paganes dyd vse so / and that they should not rest from their laboures those dayes that the paganes dyd / that they should not keepe the first day of euery moneth as they dyd.

* An other councell decreed / that the christians should not celebrate feastes Affrica. concil. c. 27. on the birth dayes of the Martyrs / because it was the maner of the heathen: whereby it appeareth / that both of singulare men and of councels / in making or abolyshing of Ceremonies / heede hath beene taken / that the Christians shoulde not be lyke vnto the Idolaters / no not in those things which of them selues are most indifferent to be vsed / or not vsed. It were not harde to shewe the same considerations in the seuerall things which are mentioned of in thys admonition / as for example in the ceremonies of prayer / which is heere to bee handled / wee reade that Tertullian would not haue the Christians sitte after they had prayed / Lib. de anima. because the idolaters dyd so / but hauing shewed thys in generall to be the pollicy [Page 133] of God first / and of hys people afterwarde / to put as muche difference as can be commodiously betwene the people of God and others whych are not / I shal not neede to shewe the same in the particulares.

Furthermore / as the wisedome of God hathe thoughte it the best way / to keepe hys people from infection of idolatry / to make them most vnlike the idola­ters: so hath the same wisedome of God thought good / that to kepe hys people in the vnity of the truth / there is no better way / then that they should be moste like one to an other / and that as much as possibly may be / they shuld haue all the same ceremonies. And therfore S. Paule to establishe this order in the church of Co­rinth / 1. Cor. 16. 1. that they shoulde make their gatherings for the pore vpon the firste day of the Saboth (whych is our sunday) alleageth thys for a reason / that he had so or­dained in other churches / so that as children of one father / and seruauntes of one family / he will haue all the churches / not only haue one diet / in that they haue one word / but also weare / as it were one liuery / in vsing the same ceremonies.

Thys rule did the great councell of Nice follow / when it ordained / y^• where Concil. Nice. canon. 20. certaine at the feast of Pentecost / did pray kneeling / that they should pray stan­ding / the reason wherof is added / whych is / that one custome oughte to be kepte throughout all the churches. It is true / that the diuersity of ceremonies ought not to cause the churches to dissent one wyth an other / but yet it maketh much to the auoyding of dissention / that there be amongst them an vnity / not only in doc­trine / but also in Ceremonies. Nowe we see plainely / that as the forme of oure seruice and Leyturgie commeth to neare that of the papistes / so it is farre diffe­rent from that of other churches reformed / and therfore in bothe these respectes to be amended.

An other faulte there is in the whole seruice or Lyturgie of Englande / for that it maintaineth an vnpreaching ministery / and so consequently an vnlawfull ministery. I say it maintaineth / not so muche in that it appoynteth a number of psalmes and other prayers and chapters to be red / whych may occupye the time whych is to be spent in preaching / wherin notwythstanding it ought to haue bene more wary / considering that the deuil vnder this coloure of long prayer / did thus in the kingdome of antichriste banish preaching / I say not so much in that poynt / as for that it requireth necessarily nothyng to be done by the minister / whych a childe of ten yeare olde can not doe / as well and as lawfully / as that man where­wyth the boke contenteth it selfe. Neyther can it be shifted / in saying this is done for want of able men to be ministers / for it may be easely answeared / that first the want of sufficient ministers ought to be no cause for men to breake the vnchāge­able lawes of God / whych be / that none maye be made minister of the churche / whych can not teache / that none minister the sacraments whych do not preache. For althoughe it might be graunted / (whych thing I woulde not denye / no not when there are enough sufficient ministers / ) that they may appoynt some godly graue man whych can do nothing else but reade to be a reader in the churche / yet that may not be graunted / that they maye make of one that can doe nothyng but reade / a minister of the gospell / or one whych may haue power to minister the sa­cramentes.

Besides that / howe can they say that it is for want of sufficient ministers / when as there be put out of the ministerye men that be able to serue God in that calling / and those put in their roumes / whych are not able / when there are num­bers also whych are fit to serue and neuer sought for / nor once required to take a­ny ministery vpon them? If therfore it were lawfull to plead want of able mini­sters / for this dumbe ministery whych is altogither vnlawfull / yet woulde thys plea neuer be good / vntill suche time as bothe those were restored whych are put out / and all other sought forth and called vpon whych are fit for that purpose.

Againe / it can not be sayde iustly / that they haue taken these reading mini­sters [Page 134] / vntill suche time as better may be gotten / for if the church could procure a­ble ministers / and should desire that they mighte be ordained ouer them / they can not obtaine that / considering that these reading ministers haue a free hold / and an estate for terme of their liues in those churches / of the whych they are such mini­sters: so that by thys meanes / the sheepe are not only committed to an idoll shep­heard / I might say a wolfe / and speake no otherwise then Aug. speaketh / in that a not preaching minister hath entrance into the church / but the dore also is shutte vpon him / and sparred against any able minister / that might haply be found oute.

There is a third fault / whych likewise appeareth almost in the whole body of this seruice and Liturgie of England / and that is that the profit whych might haue come by it vnto the people / is not reaped. Whereof the cause is / for that he whych readeth / is not in some places heard / and in the most places not vnderstā ­ded of the people / through the distance of place betweene the people and the mini­ster / so that a great part of the people can not of knowledge tell / whether he hathe curssed them or blessed them / whether he hath red in Latine or in English / all the whych riseth vpon the words of the boke of seruice / whych are that the minister should stand in the accustomed place. For therevpon the minister in saying mor­ning and euening prayer / sitteth in the chauncell / wyth hys backe to the people / as thoughe he had some secreate talke wyth God / whych the people myghte not heare. And herevpon it is likewise / that after morning prayer for saying a nother number of prayers / he climeth vp to the further end of the chauncel / and runneth as farre from the people / as the wall wil let him / as though there were some va­riance betwene the people and the minister / or as though he were afraide of some infection of plage. And in dede it renueth the memory of the Leuitical priesthode / whych did withdrawe himselfe from the people into the place called the holyest place / where he talked wyth God / and offered for the sinnes of the people.

Likewise for Mariage he cometh backe againe into the body of the church / and for baptisme vnto the church dore / what comelines / what decency / what edi­fying is thys? Decencie (I say) in running and trudging from place to place / e­difying: in standing in that place / and after that sort / where he can worst be harde and vnderstanded. S. Luke sheweth / that in the primitiue church both the pray­ers Actes. 1. 15. and preachings / and the whole exercise of religion was done otherwyse. For he sheweth howe S. Peter sitting amongste the rest / to the ende he myght be the better heard / rose / & not that only / but that he stode in the midst of the people / that his voyce might as much as might be / come indifferently to all their eares / and so standing / both prayed and preached. Now if it be said for the chapters & Letany / there is commaundement geuen / that they shuld be red in the body of the church / in deede it is true / and therof is easely perceiued this disorder whych is in saying the rest of the prayers / partly in the hither end / and partly in the further end of the chauncell. For seeing that those are red in the body of the church / that the people may both heare and vnderstand what is red / what shuld be the cause why the rest should be red farther of / vnles it be / that either those things are not to be heard of them / or at the least not so necessary for them to be heard as the other whych are recited in the body or midst of the church. And if it be further sayd / that the boke leaueth that to the discretion of the ordinarye / and that he may reforme it if there be any thing amis / then it is easely answered again / that besides that it is against reason / that the commoditye and edifying of the church should depende vpon the pleasure of one man / so that vpon hys eyther good or euill aduise and discretion / it should be well or euell wyth the church: Besides this (I say) we see by expe­rience of the disorders whych are in many churches and dioceses in thys behalfe / how that if it were lawfull to commit such authority vnto one man / yet that it is not safe so to doe / considering that they haue so euill quitten them selues in their charges / and that in a matter / the inconuenience wherof being so easely sene / and [Page 135] so easely reformed / there is notwythstanding so greate and so generall an abuse. And the end of the order in the boke is to be obserued / which is to kepe the prai­ers in the accustomed place of the church / chappell / or chauncell / whych how ma­keth it to edification? And thus for the generall faultes committed either in the whole Liturgy / or in the most part of it / both that I may haue no nede to repete the same in the particulares / and that I be not compelled alwayes to enter a new disputation / so ofte as M. Doctor sayeth very vnskilfully / and vnlike a deuine / whence so euer thys or that come / so it be not euill / it may be well established in the church of Christ.

Nowe I come to the forme of prayer whych is prescribed / wherin the au­thors of the admonition declare / that their meaning is not to disalow of prescript seruice of prayer / but of thys forme that we haue. For they expound themselues in the additions vnto the first part of the admonition. It is not to any purpose / y^t M. Doctor setteth himselfe to proue / that there may be a prescript order of pray­er by Iustine Martyrs testimony / which notwithstanding hath not one word of prescript forme of prayers / only he sayth there were prayers. He sayth in dede the auncient fathers say that there hathe bene alwayes such kinde of prayers in the churches / & although they do say so / yet all men may vnderstand easely / that M. doctor speaketh thys rather by coniecture / or that he hath heard other mē say so: for so much as that Doctor whych he hathe chosen out to speake for all the rest / hath no such thing / as he fathereth on him. He sayeth that after they haue bapti­sed / they pray for them selues / & for hym that is baptised / and for all men that they may be mete to learne the truth / and to expres it in their honest conuersation / and that they be found to kepe the commaundements / that they may attaine to eter­nal life / but is this to say y^e there was a prescript forme of prayer / when he shew­eth nothing els but the chefe poynts vpon y^e whych they conceiued their prayers? If you had alleaged thys to proue what were the matters or principall poyntes that the primitiue church vsed to pray for / you had alleaged thys to purpose / but to alleage it for a profe of a prescript forme of prayer / when there is not there mē ­tioned so much as the essentiall forme of prayer (whych is the asking of our peti­tions in the name / and through the intercession of our sauior Christ) without the whych there is not / nor cannot be any prayer / argueth that either you litle know what the forme of prayer is / or that you thought (as you charge the authors of the admonition so often) that this geare of yours should neuer haue come to the examination. But for as muche as we agree of a prescript forme of prayer to be vsed in the church let that go: thys that I haue sayd / is to shew that when M. Doctor hapneth of a good cause / whych is very seldome in this boke / yet then he marreth it in the handling. After he affirmeth / that there can be nothing shewed in the whole boke / whych is not agreeable vnto the word of God.

I am very lothe to enter into this field / albeit M. Doctor dothe thus pro­uoke me / bothe because the Papistes will lightly take occasion of euill speaking / when they vnderstand that we do not agree amongst our selues in euery poynte / as for that some fewe professors of the gospell being priuate men / boldened vpon such treatises / take such wayes sometimes / and breake forth into such speaches / as are not meete nor conuenient.

Notwythstanding my duetie of defending the truthe / and loue whych I haue first towardes God / and then towards my countrey / constraineth me being thus prouoked / to speake a fewe woordes more particularly of the fourme of prayer / that when the blemishes thereof doe appeare / it may please the Queenes maiestie / and her honourable Councell / wyth those of the Parliamente / whome the Lorde hathe vsed as singulare instrumentes to deliuer thys realme from the hotte furnaice and iron yoke of the popishe Egipte / to procure also / that the corruptions whych we haue broughte from them (as those wysh whych we [Page 136] being so deepely dide and stained / haue not so easely shaken of) may be remoued from amongst vs / to the end that we being nearelyer both ioyned vnto the since­rity of the gospell / and the pollicy of other reformed churches / may therby be ioy­ned nearer wyth the Lord / and may be set so far from Rome / that both we may comfort our selues in the hope / that we shall neuer returne thether againe / & our aduersaries whych desire it / and by this too much agreement with them / and too little wyth the reformed churches / hope for it / may not only be deceiued of their expectation / but also being out of all hope of that whych they desire / may the so­ner yeelde themselues vnto the truth / whervnto they are now disobedient.

And as for the papistes triumphe in thys case / I shall not greatly neede to feare it / considering that their discords and contentions are greater / and that our strife is / because we would be farther from them. For the other that profes the gospell / I will desire in the name of God / that they abuse not my labor to other end / then I bestowe it / and that they keepe them selues in their callings / commit the matter by prayer vnto the Lord / leauing to the ministers of the word of god / and to the magistrates that / whych appertaineth vnto them.

To come therfore to touch thys matter / I answer that there is fault in the The collect of Trinitye son­day. matter / and fault in the fourme. In the matter / for that there are things there / that ought not to be / and thyngs there are wanting in the order that shuld be. Of the first sort is / that we may euermore be defended from all aduersity.

Now / for as much as there is no promise in the scripture / that we should be free from all aduersity / and that euermore / it semeth that this prayer might haue bene better conceiued / being no prayer of faith / or of the whych we can assure our selues that we shall obtaine it. For if it be sayd that by the worde (aduersity) is meant all euill / we know that it hath no such signification / neither in this tongue of oures / neyther in other tongues whych vse the same worde in common wyth vs / but that it signifieth trouble / vexation / and calamitye / from all the whych we may not desire alwayes to be deliuered. And whatsoeuer can be alledged for the defence of it / yet euery one that is not contentious / may see that it needeth some caution or exception.

In the collect vpon the twelfth sonday after Trinitie sonday / and likewise in one of those whych are to be sayd after the Offertorie (as it is termed) is done / request is made / that God would geue those thyngs whych we for oure vnwor­thynes dare not aske / whych carieth wyth it still the note of the popishe seruile feare / and sauoureth not of that confidence and reuerēt familiaritie / that the chil­dren of God haue thorough Christ / wyth their heauenly father. For as we dare not wythout our sauioure Christ aske so much as a crumme of bread / so there is nothing whych in hys name we dare not aske / being needefull for vs / and if it be not needefull / why should we aske it? And if all the prayers were gathered toge­ther / and referred to these two heades of Gods glory / and of the thyngs whych pertaine to this present life / I can make no Geometricall and exact measure / but verely I beleue / there shalbe found more then a third part of the prayers whych are not psalmes and texts of scriptures / spent in praying for / and praying against the commodities / and incommodities of this life / whych is contrary to all the ar­guments or contents of the prayers of the churche / whych are sette downe in the scripture / and especially of our sauior Christes prayer / by the whych ours ought to be directed / which of .vij. petitions / bestoweth one only that wayes. And this / these foresayd prayers do / not only in generall words / but by deducting the com­modities and incommodities of thys life into their particulare kindes / & we pray for the auoiding of those dangers which are nothyng neare vs / as from lightning and thundering in the midst of winter / from storme and tempest / when the wea­ther is most faire / and the seas most calme. &c. It is true / that vpon some vrgent calamity / a prayer may and ought to be framed / whych may beg eyther the com­modity [Page 137] for want whereof the Church is in distres / or the turning away of that mischeefe whych eyther approcheth / or whych is alreadye vppon it: but to make those prayers whych are for the present time and daunger / ordinarye and dailye prayers / I can not hetherto see any / either scripture or example of the primitiue churche. And heere for the simples sake I will set downe after what sorte thys abuse crept into the church.

There was one Mamercus bishop of Vienna / whych in the time of great Platina cap. Leo. earthquakes whych were in Fraunce / instituted certaine supplications / whych the Grecians / & we of them call the Letany / whych concerned that matter: there is no doubte but as other discommodities rose in other countreys / they likewise had prayers accordingly. Nowe Pope Gregorie eyther made himselfe / or gathe­red the supplications that were made againste the calamities of euery countrey / and made of them a great Letany or supplication / as Platina calleth it / and gaue it to be vsed in all churches: whych thing albeit all churches might do for the time in respect of the case of the casamity whych the churches suffered / yet there is no cause why it should be perpetuall / that was ordained but for a time / and why all landes should pray to be deliuered from the incommodities / that some land hathe bene troubled wyth.

The like may be sayd of the gloria patri, and the Athanasius Crede: it was first brought into the churche / to the ende that: nen thereby should make an open profession in the church of the diuinitie of the sonne of God / against the detestable opinion of Arius and his disciples / wherwith at that time maruellously swarmed almost the whole christendome / now that it hath pleased the Lord to quench that fire / there is no such cause whye these things should be in the church / at the least why that gloria patri, should be so often repeated.

Moreouer / to make Benedictus, Magnificat, and Nunc dimittis, ordinarye and daily prayers / seemeth to be a thing not so conuenient / considering that they do no more concerne vs / thē all other scriptures do / and then doth the Aue Maria, as they called it. For although they were prayers of thanks geuing in Simeon / ʒacharie / and the blessed virgin Mary / yet can they not be so in vs / whych haue not receiued lyke benefites / they may be added to the number of Psalmes / and so song as they be / but to make daily and ordinary prayers of them / is not wythout some inconuenience and disorder.

And so haue I answeared vnto those thyngs whych are contained in the 202. 203. pages / sauing that I must admonish the reader / that wheras you will proue that we ought to haue an ordinarye prayer to be deliuered from danger of thunder / lightnings. &c. because there are examples of certen that haue bene kil­led thereby / you mighte as well bryng in a prayer / that men may not haue falles frō their horses / may not fal into the hands of robbers / may not fall into waters / and a number such more sodaine deathes / wherwith a greater number are taken away / then by thundrings or lightnings / and such like / and so there should be ne­uer any end of begging these earthly cōmodityes / whych is contrary to the forme of prayer / appoynted by our sauioure Christe.

And wheras you alledge the petition of the Lords prayer (deliuer vs from euill) to proue this prayer against Thunder. &c. besides that all the commodities and discommodities of thys life are prayed for / and prayed against in that petiti­on / whereby we desire oure daily breade: it is very straunge to apply that to the thunder / that is vnderstanded of the deuill / as the article apo tou ponerou dothe declare. And that it is a maruellous cōclusion / that for so much as we ought dai­ly and ordinarily / and publikely desire to be deliuered from the Deuill / Ergo, we oughte daily and ordinarily / and publikely / desire to be deliuered from thunder. It is one thing to correct Magnificat, and an other thing to shew the abuse of it: And therfore I see no cause why you should vse this allusion betwene Magnifi­cat [Page 138] & significat, vnles it be for y^t you purposing to set out all your learning in thys boke / wold not so much as forget an old rotten prouerb / whych trotted amongst the monkes in their cloisters / of whome I may iustly say / whych Tullie sayd in a nother thyng. Nec quicquam ingenium potest monasterium: that is / the cloister coulde neuer bring forthe any witty thing / for heere although there be Rythmus, yet it is sine ratione. Rime wyth­out reason.

As these are diuers things more then ought to be conueniently / so wante there some things in the prayers. There are prayers set forthe to be sayde in the common calamities / and vniuersal scourges of the realme / as plague / famine. &c. and in dede so it ought to be by the word of God ioyned wyth a publike fast com­maūded / not only when we are in any calamity / but also when any the churches round about vs / or in any countrey receiue any generall plague or greeuous cha­stisement at the Lordes hand. But as suche prayers are needefull / whereby we beg release from our distresses / so there ought to be as necessary prayers of thāks geuing / whē we haue receiued those things at the Lords hand / whych we asked in our prayers. And thus much touching the matter of the prayers / eyther not altogither sound / or else too much or too little.

Concerning the fourme / there is also to be misliked: A great cause wherof is the folowing of the forme vsed in Popery / against whych I haue before spo­ken. For whilest that seruice was set in many poynts as a paterne of this / it co­meth to pas / that in stead of suche prayers as the primitiue churches haue vsed / & those that be reformed / now vse / we haue diuers short cuts & shreddings / whych may be better called wishes then prayers. And that no man thinke that thys is some idle fancie / & that it is no matter of weight / what forme of prayer we vse / so that the prayers be good / it must be vnderstanded / that as it is not sufficient to preach the same doctrine whych our sauior Christ & hys apostles haue preached / vnles the same forme of doctrine / and of teaching be likewise kept: so is it not e­nough that the matter of our prayer be such as is in the word of God / vnles that the forme also be agreeable vnto the formes of prayers in the scripture. Now we haue no such formes in the scripture / as that we shuld pray in .ij. or .iij. lines / and thē after hauing red a while some other thing / come and pray as much more / and so to the .xx. and .xxx. time / wyth pauses betweene.

If a man shoulde come to a Prince / and keepe suche order in making hys petitions vnto hym / that hauing very many things to demaund / after he had de­maunded one thing / he would stay a long time / and then demaunde an other / and so the thirde / the prince myght well thinke / that eyther he came to aske before he knew what he had nede of / or that he had forgotten some pece of hys sute / or that he were distracted in hys vnderstanding / or some other such like cause of the dis­order of his supplication. And therfore how much more conuenient were it / that according to the manner of the reformed churches: first the minister wyth an hū ­ble and general confession of faults / shuld desire the assistance of the Lord / for the frutefull handling and receiuing of the word of God / and then after that we haue heard the Lord speake vnto vs in hys worde by hys minister / the church should likewise speake vnto the Lord / and present all those petitions and sutes at once / bothe for the whole churche and for the Prince and all other estates whych shall be thought needefull.

And if any will say that there are short prayers found in the Actes / it may be answeared / that S. Luke doth not expres the whole prayers at large / but only set downe the summes of them / and their cheefe poyntes. And further it may be answeared / that alwayes those praiers were continued together / and not cut off / and shred into diuers small peeces.

An other fault is / that all the people are appoynted in diuers places to saye after the minister / wherby not only the time is vnprofitably wasted / & a confused [Page 139] voyce of the people one speaking after an other caused / but an opinion bredde in their heads / that those only be their prayers whych they say and pronounce with their owne mouthes / whych causeth them to geue the les heede to the rest of the prayers whych they reherse not after the minister / whych notwithstanding are as well their prayers / as those whych they pronounce after the minister / other­wise then the order whych is left vnto the church of God dothe beare. For God hath ordained the minister to thys ende / that as in publike meetings / he only is the mouthe of the Lorde from hym to the people / euen so he ought to be only the mouthe of the people from them vnto the Lorde / and that all the people shoulde attende to that whych is sayde by the minister / and in the ende bothe declare their consent to that whych is sayde / and there hope that it shall so be and come to pas whych is prayed / by the worde (Amen) as S. Paule declareth in the Epistle to 1. Cor. 14. 16. 2. apoll. pro christianis. the Corinthians. And Iustine Martyr sheweth to haue bene the custome of the churches in hys time.

Although these blots in the Common prayer / be such as may easely enough appeare vnto any whych is not wedded to a preiudicate opinion / and that there is no great difficultye in thys matter / yet I knowe that thys treatise of prayer will be subiect to many reprehensions / and that there will not be wanting some probable coloures also / wherby these things may be defended / if men wil set them selues to striue and to contende: yet (for the desire that I haue that these thyngs should be amended / and for the instruction of the simpler whych are studious of the truthe) I haue bene bolde to vtter that whych I thinke / not doubting also but that the light of the truthe shall be able to scatter all those mistes of reasons / whych shall go about to darken the clearnes therof.

To the next section beginning at the. 79. page / and holding on vntill the. 82. page.

MAister D. requireth that it should be proued vnto him / that by priuate bap­tisme is ment baptisme by wemen. First it is ment / that it shuld be done by some other then the minister / for that the minister is bid to geue them war­ning / that they shuld not baptise the childe at home in their house wythout great cause and necessity. Secondarily / I would gladly aske him who they be that are present / when y^e childe is so shortly after it is borne in great danger of death. And last of all M. Doctor dothe not see / howe he accuseth all the magistrates of thys realme of the neglect of their duety / in that they allowe of the daily practising by women in baptising children / if so be that the boke did not so appoynt it or permit it. If he ment plainly heerein / there needed not so much adoe.

The place of S. Mathew is as strong against womens baptising / as it is Chap. 28. 19. against their preaching. For the ministery of the word and sacraments can not be pulled in sonder / whych the Lord hathe ioyned together from time to time. For Noah whych was a preacher vnto the olde world of the wil of God / was ordai­ned also of God to make the Arke / whych was a Sacrament and seale of hys 2. Peter. 2. 5. Genes. 6. 14. Genes. 18. 19. Genes. 17. 23. preaching touching the destruction of the world. And Abraham whom the Lord would haue to be the Doctor of hys church / whych was then in his family / was also commaunded to minister the Sacrament of circumcision vnto hys familye. The priestes and Leuites whych were appoynted to teache the people / were al­so appoynted to sacrifice / and to minister other sacraments in the churche. Like­wise the same Prophets whych God stirred vp to preache / he also ordained to cō ­firme the same by signes and sacraments. The same may be also brawne through out the new Testament / as vnto euery of the twelue / and afterward to the. 70. power was geuen / bothe to preache the gospell / and also to confirme with signes Luke. 9. 1. Luk. 10. 1. 17. and miracles whych were seales of their doctrine. [Page 140] And S. Paule by the commaundement that oure sauioure Christe gaue him to Acts. 22. 15. 1. Cor. 1. 17. preache / vndertoke also to baptise / althoughe there were no expres wordes that licensed hym therevnto: for he knewe right well that it was the perpetuall ordi­nance of God / that the same should be the ministers of the word and sacraments. Whervpon it followeth / that for as much as women may not preach the gospel / no not by the lawes of the realme / that they ought not to minister baptisme. But M. Doctor riseth vp and sayeth / that a woman in the time of necessitye / and when there is none other that eyther can or will preache / may preache the gospell in the churche.

This is straunge doctrine / and suche as strengtheneth the Anabaptistes handes / and sauoureth stronger that wayes / then any one thyng in all the admo­nition / whych is so often condemned of Anabaptisme. Hys first reason to proue it / is y^t there are examples therof. When we alledge the examples of all the chur­ches of the apostles times / to proue the election of the minister by the church / and in other cases whych are generall examples approued and executed by the apo­stles / contrary to no commaundement nor institution of God / yea / and as hathe bene proued according to the commaundement of God / M. Doctor geueth vs oure answere in a worde / that examples proue not: nowe that the question is to make good womens preaching in the churche / examples I will not saye of all churches / but of no one church / only of a fewe singulare persons / not according to the commaundement of the worde of God / but cleane contrary to the prescripte 1. Cor. 14. 34. 1. Tim. 2. 12. worde of God / I say / nowe examples / and suche singulare examples are good proufes and strong arguments.

Now / if the speache be a true messenger of the heart / I perceiue M. doctor is of this minde / that he would haue women preach in the church of England at thys time: for he can not deny (and he also confesseth it sometimes) that thys is the time of necessity / & in dede it must be needes an extreme necessity / that driueth to make one man pastor of two churches / especially so far distant / that driueth to make men which are not able to teach / ministers / and diuers more things which are contrary to the word of God. Therfore this being a time of necessity / by M. Doctors iudgement we ought to haue women to preach. Besides this he sayth / if neither none other can or wil preache / that then women may preach / but in the most churches of thys realme / there is none that eyther can or will preach / there­fore there / and in those churches women (at the least if they be able) may preache the gospell / and consequently minister the sacraments.

In the. 187. page / he citeth M. Caluin in the. 13. chap. section. 32. to proue that women may teach: wherein I maruell what he meaneth so to alledge M. Caluin continually / he alledgeth the. 13. chapter and no booke / as thoughe he had wrytten but one boke / and in deede there is no such thing in no such chapter of a­ny boke of hys institutions / or in any other place throughout his whole workes / as I am perswaded. If this faulte had bene but twise or thrise / I woulde haue thought it had bene the printers / but now that it is continuall and so oftentimes / surely he geueth great suspition / that eyther some bodye hathe mocked hym wyth these places / or els he would abuse others / and especially him that should answer hys boke / setting him to seeke that he should neuer finde.

As for M. Caluins iudgement / what it is of womens preaching / it maye 4. lib. Instit. cap. 15. sect. 20 appeare by that he will not by any meanes / no not in the time of necessitye (as they terme it) suffer either woman or any lay mā to baptise or minister any sacra­ment / and therfore not to preache. And as for the examples of Mary the sister of Moyses / of Olda / of Anna / and the daughters of Philip the euangelist / whych are all called prophetisses (for I thinke M. doctor meaneth these exāples) as for them I say / it wil be hard for to shew that they euer prophesied / or taught openly in any publike meeting or congregation. But the surer answer is / that although [Page 141] the Lorde doe sometimes not being vnder any law chaunge the order which he hath set / in raysing vp certayne women / partly to the shame of men / and to hum­ble them / partly to let them vnderstand that he can / if he would / want their mini­stery: yet it is not lawfull for vs to draw that into example / and to follow it: or that for as much as he breaketh the law which is not subiect vnto it / and which he made not for hym selfe / that therefore we may breake the law whereunto we be subiect / and to whom it is geuen. But we must goe in the broade hygh way of the commaundement / and of the ordinary vsage of God in gouerning hys church / and not in the biepath of certayne singulare examples which haue beene in diuers ages. And as often as God hath vsed thys extraordinary meanes of the ministe­ry of women / so often also hath he confirmed their calling eyther by miracle or some wonderfull issue / or with some other singulare note and marke / wherby he hath made their calling otherwyse straunge and monstruous / most certayne and vndoubted to all men.

There is greater difficultie then M. Doctor mentioneth / in the wordes of 1. Cor. 11. 5. S. Paule / where he sayth a woman praying or Prophesying ought to be vailed / and haue her head couered / in which words it seemeth that the Apostle lycenceth a woman to prophecie / so that shee do it with her head couered. But to hym that shall diligently consyder the place / it shall appeare / that the women of Corinth / dyd passe the boundes of modesty and of shamefastnesse / two wayes / whereof one was / that they came into the congregation contrary to the custome of those coun­treys / with theyr heades & faces vncouered: an other was / that they also tooke vpon them to speake in the congregation / both which faultes S. Paule condem­ned / but in their seuerall and proper places. Although therfore speaking agaynst the abuse of vncouering theyr head / he doth not condemne their boldnesse in tea­ching / yet he dyd not therefore approue it / the confutation whereof he reserued to a more commodious place. But sayeth hee / if women do baptise / it is in pri­uate houses.

I haue shewed before that they may not baptise at all / therefore not in pri­uate houses: besides that that I haue in the Reply vnto the section in the one and twenty page shewed / how it is not lawfull neyther to preach the word / nor to minister the Sacramentes in priuate corners / for the which matter of not mini­string the Sacramentes in priuate houses / to the authors of the Admonition / ci­ting the eleuenth Chapter of the first Epistle vnto the Corrinthians / M. Doc­tor answeareth that he reproueth the prophanation of the supper by banketting and contempt of their brethren / and exhorteth to tary one for an other.

But what is thys to the purpose? we aske not M. Doctor the interpreta­tion of thys place / as we doe not of all the rest which he interpreateth / where there is no occasyon in the world to interpreate them / being of them selues very cleare / and the interpretation which is brought neuer almost making ▪ any thing for the solution of that which is obiected / which I desire the Reader to marke through­out hys whole booke. For what if S. Paule reproue the prophanation of the supper of the Lord / doth it follow therefore that he doth not geue to vnderstand / that the Sacrament should be administred in a common assembly? What if hee exhorte to tary one for an other / therefore dothe he not dehorte from celebrating of the sacrament in a priuate house?

And surely me thincke / you can not be so ignoraunt as you make your selfe / that you should not vnderstande their argument / and therefore I thinke you do rather dissemble it / as you doe in diuers other places. For all men may easely per­ceyue / that as S. Paule opposeth the supper of the Lord / to the common supper: hys banket / to the common banket: so he opposeth there manifestly the church 1. Cor. 11. 20. 21. 22. and congregation / vnto the pryuate house: and declareth that as the common sup­per or banket / ought to be kept at theyr houses / so the Lordes supper and hys [Page 142] banket / ought to be celebrated in the congregation.

To the Admonition obiecting in the ninetie and two page that Iohn bapti­sed Marc. 1. 5. openly amongst the congregation / he answeareth and sayth / that it may bee as well concluded that we should baptise only in the riuer of Iordane / and none but those that be of age. By which saying he geueth to vnderstand / that to baptise in the church / hath no greater necessitie thē y^e baptising in Iordane / nor it skilleth no more whether baptisme be mynistred in the publike assembly / thē it is necessary or skilleth / whether we be baptised in the riuer of Iordane / & that the baptisme of yong infantes / hath no better groundes then priuate baptisme hath. The later whereof (both being absurde) is too too iniurious vnto the baptisme of yong infantes. For as of our sauioure Christes preachinges in publyke places / and refusing pryuate places / we doe gather that the preaching of the woorde ought to bee publike: euen so of S. Iohns preaching and baptising in open meetings / wee conclude that bothe preaching and baptysing / oughte to bee in publike as­semblies.

And although to some one action there concurre dyuers things / which part­ly are not to be followed at all / partly are indifferent to be followed or not follow­ed: yet neyther the vnlawfulnesse of the one to be followed / nor the indifferency of the other / can hynder / but there are other some things in the same action neces­sary to bee followed. Which may be considered both of the place of the Actes / Act. 1. touching the election / where I haue proued some things there mentioned to be necessary to be done in elections / although other some be not conuenient nor fit for vs to follow. And I haue shewed it also by M. Caluine / which Maister Doctor alleageth for hym selfe / and by Cyprian / whose authoritie he woulde be loth to reiect I am sure / least he should lose the opynion of hys studiousnesse of the olde wryters / which he hunteth so dyligently after in thys booke / and wher­of he maketh the authors of the Admonition so great contemners. And it is not harde to shew the same in .xx. places more / as in S. Mathew and S. Luke / Math. 10. Luk. 9. Luk. 10. where / as there are dyuers things not to be followed of the mynisters now / other things indifferent to be followed / so are there also other things that be as well commaunded to all the mynisters that now are / as they were then eyther to the 12. or. 70. disciples. And other reason he addeth there / that S. Peter baptised in Cornelius house. But M. Doctor maketh not the best choyse of hys argu­mentes / for S. Paules baptysing in the house of the gayler / had bene more fit 16. Act. 33. for hym. For vnto hys place it may be easely answeared / that Cornelyus hauing so great a family as it is lyke he had / and besides that dyuers souldiours vnder­neath hym / and further hys freendes and hys acquaintance which he had called / had a competent number / and as many as woulde make a congregation / and as coulde commodiously be preached vnto in one place. But the answere to both these examples and other suche lyke / as that S. Paule baptysed the house of 1. Cor. 1. 16. Stephana is easie. For there being persecutions at that tyme / so that it was not safe neyther for the mynister / nor for the people to be seene / it was meete that they shoulde doe it in houses / which otherwise they woulde haue done in open places. And then / those houses which receiued the congregation / were not as I haue shewed for the tyme to be counted priuate houses. And further in places where the gospell hath not bene receiued / nor no church gathered / but one only housholde embracing the gospell / I say in suche a case / and especially in the tyme of persecution / where should the mynisters preach or mynister the sacramentes more conueniently / then in that house where those professors of the gospell bee? Now to draw thys into our churches / which may safely come into open places / and where the church and congregation standeth of dyuers housholdes / is a token of great want of iudgement / in shuffelyng those thyngs together / which for the great diuersitie of their natures will not be mingled.

And in the page. 152. he bringeth other reasons to proue that the sacraments may be mynistred in a priuate house / whereof the first is / that our sauiour Christ celebrated his supper in a priuate house / and in an inner parlour / the reason wher­of is easely to be knowne / for the law of God ordayned that euery housholder in hys house should eate the passeouer with hys owne family / if it were so great / as that they might well eate vp a whole Lambe.

Our sauiour Christ therfore with hys housholde / obserueth thys law / and for because he would declare that the passeouer had hys ende / and that hys holy sacrament of the supper should come in place thereof / he doth forthwith celebrate it in y^e same place. Which if he had not done / neyther could he haue done it at al (the houre of hys apprehension then approching) neyther should it so liuely haue ap­peared / that eyther the passeouer was abolyshed / or that the supper came in place of it / being celebrated both at an other tyme / & in an other place. For the celebra­ting of the supper in houses in the Apostles tymes / and in Iustins and Tertulli­ans tymes / which were tymes of persecution / I haue spoken before / where also I declared that such houses for the tyme are not priuate but publike.

And these are hys reasons wherewith he wold proue / that the sacraments / and therefore also the sacrament of baptisme / may be mynistred in a priuate house. He hath certayne other to proue that women may baptise / whereof the first is in the. 93. page / and that is / that Sephora Moses wyfe / circumcised her chylde / whereunto I haue answeared partly before / that particular examples / especially contrary to generall rules / are not to be followed / and will further answere / if I first admonishe the reader / wherupon thys baptisme of mydwiues and in priuate houses rose / that when we know of how rotten a stocke it came / the frute it selfe may be more lothsome vnto vs. It first therfore rose vpon a false interpretation of the place of S. Iohn. Vnlesse a man be borne againe of vvater & of the spirite, 3. Iohn. 5. he can not enter into the kingdome of heauen. Where certayne doe interpreate the worde water for the materiall & elementall water / wherewith men are washed / when as our sauiour Christ taketh water there / by a translation or borowed speach / for the spirite of God / the effect whereof it shadoweth out. For euen as 3. Math. 11. in an other place by the fire and the spirite / he meaneth nothing but the spirite of God / which purgeth and purifyeth as the fire doth: so in thys place / by the water and the spirite / he meaneth nothing else / but the spirite of God / which clenseth the filth of sinne / and cooleth the broyling heate of an vnquiet conscience / as water washeth the thing which is foule / and quencheth the heate of the fire. Seconda­rily / thys error came by a false and vnnecessary conclusyon drawne of that place. For although the scripture should say / that none can be saued / but those which haue the spirite of God / and are baptised with materiall and elementall water / yet oughte it to bee vnderstanded of those which can conueniently and orderly bee brought to baptisme / as the scripture saying / that who so doth not beleeue the gospell / is already condemned / meaneth thys sentence of those which can 3. Iohn. 18. heare the gospell / and haue discretion to vnderstande it when they heare it / and can not heere shut vnder thys condemnation / eyther those that be borne deafe / and so remayne / or little infantes / or naturall fooles / that haue no wit to conceiue what is preached.

And heereupon * S. Augustine concludeth / that all not baptised are con­demned / 106. Epist. ad Bonifac. In lib. de meritis, & re­mis. peccar. 1. ca. 24. which is as absurdly concluded of hym / as that of our sauiour Christes wordes (except one eate the fleshe of the sonne of man / hee hath not lyfe) he con­cludeth that whatsoeuer he bee which receiueth not the sacrament of the supper / is damned.

Vpon thys false conclusion of S. Augustine / hath rysen thys prophanation of the sacrament of baptisme / in being mynistred in pryuate houses / & by women or lay men / as also vpon hys other absurde conclusion / sprong a horrible abuse of [Page 144] the Lords supper / whylest they dyd thrust the bread and wyne into yong infants mouthes / for that men were persuaded / that otherwyse if their children shoulde die before they were baptised or had receiued the supper / they were damned for e­uer. And what better token can there be / that thys was the cause of thys blynde baptisme / then that the papistes from whome thys baptisme by women is trans­lated / were of the same iudgement / and for that cause brought in theyr baptisme by women. Hereupon may be added an other cause / which is that as (when the church began not only to declyne / but to fall away from the sincerity of relygion) it borowed a number of other prophanations of the Heathen: so also it borowed thys. For as the Heathen had women priestes / so it would haue also her women priestes / and that thys was an other occasion of bringing in the baptisme by wo­men / it appeareth by your Clement / if he can speake any truth. 3. Lib. 9. ca.

Now I returne to the example of Sephora / and say that the vnlawfulnes of that fact doth appeare suffyciently in that shee dyd it / before her husband Mo­ses / which was a Prophet of the Lord / and to whome that office of circumcysi­on dyd appertayne: so that vnlesse M. Doctor would haue mydwyues baptise in the presence of the byshop or the mynister / there is no cause why he should al­ledge thys place. Besides that shee dyd cutte of that foreskin of the infant not of mynde to obey the commaundement of God / or for the saluation of the childe / but in a choler only / to the ende that her husbande myght be eased and haue release: which mynde appeareth in her / both by her wordes / and by casting away in an­ger the forskin which she had cutte of. And if it be sayde that the euent declared that the act pleased God / because that Moses forthwith waxed better / and was recouered of hys sicknesse / I haue shewed before / how if we measure thinges by the euent / we shall oftentymes iustifie the wicked / and take the righteousnesse of the righteous from them. An other reason he hath / which is / that the dignitie of the sacramentes doth not depende vpon the man / whether he be mynister or no mynister / good or euill.

In deede vpon thys poynt whether he be a good or an euill mynister it de­pendeth not / but on thys poynt / whether he be a mynister or no / dependeth not only the dignitie / but also y^e being of the sacrament: so that I take the baptisme of women / to be no more the holy sacrament of baptisme / then I take any other dai­ly or ordinary washing of the childe. Neyther lette any man thincke / that I haue at vnwares slipped into thys asseueration / or that I haue forgotten / that sone after the times of the Apostles / it was the vse of certayne churches / that deacons should baptise in the tyme of necessitie (as they call it.) For as for the baptisme of deacons / I holde it to be lawfull / for because although (as it is wyth vs) they geue hym the name of deacon / yet in deede he is / as he then was in the el­der tymes a mynister / and not a deacon. And although he dyd then prouide for the poore / and so had two functions (which was not meete) yet hys office ought to be esteemed of the principall part of hys function / which was preaching and my­nistring of the Sacramentes / in certen cases. And as for the baptysing by lay men / consydering that it is not only agaynst the word of God / but also founded vpon a false grounde / and vpon an imagined necessitie (which is none in deede) it moueth me nothing at all / although it be very auncient / for so much as the sub­stance of the sacrament depended cheefely of the institution and worde of God / which is the forme / and as it were the life of the Sacrament / of which instituti­on thys is one / and of the cheefe partes / that it should be celebrated by a mynister. For although part of the institution / in that the name of the holy Trinitie is cal­led vpon / be obserued: yet if the whole institution be not / it is no more a Sacra­ment / then the papistes communion was / which celebrating in one kynde / tooke a part of the institution / and left the other. And for so much as S. Paule sayeth / Rom. 10. 15. that a man can not preach which is not sent / no not although he speake the words [Page 145] of the scripture and interpreate them: so I can not see / how a man can baptise / vn­lesse that he be sent to that end / although he poure water and rehearse the words which are to be rehearsed in the ministery of baptisme. I know there be dyuers difficultyes in thys question / and therefore I was lothe to enter into it / but that the answearer setteth downe so confidently / that it maketh no matter for the truth of baptisme / whether he be mynister or no mynister / and so whether one haue a calling or no calling. Wherein notwithstanding he doth not only by hys often handling of one thing / confounde hys reader / but hym selfe also / and forgetteth that he is in an other question then which is propounded. For although it should be graunted hym / that the sacrament doth not depende vpon that / yet hath he not that which he would haue / that women may baptise. For it is one thing to say the baptisme which is mynistred by women / is good and effectuall / and an other thing to say that it is lawfull for women to mynister baptisme. For there is no man doubteth: but that the baptisme which is mynistred by an hereticall myni­ster is effectuall / and yet I thincke that M. Doctor will not say / that therefore an hereticall mynister may baptise / and that it is lawfull for heretikes to baptise in the church. And therfore men must not only take heede (as M. Doctor sayth) that they vsurpe not that which they are not called vnto / but they must also take heede that they receyue not functions and charges vpon them / whereof they are not capable / although they be thereunto called.

In the 153. page M. Bucers censure vpon the communion booke is cited / for the allowance of that it hath touching priuate baptisme / and consequently of the baptisme by women. It may be / that as M. Bucer although otherwyse ve­ry learned hath other grose absurdities / so he may haue that. But it had bene for the credite of your cause / if you had shewed that out of those wrytinges / which are publyshed and known to be his / and not out of those wherof men may doubt / whether euer he wrote any suche or no: and if hee wrote / whether they be cor­rupted by those into whose handes they came. And if you would take any ad­uantage of M. Bucers testimony / considering y^• a witnesse is a publike person / you should haue brought hym out of your study into the Stationers shop / where he mought haue bene common to others as well as to you / where by hys stile and maner of wryting / as it were by hys gestures & countenaunces / & by those things that go before and come after / as it were by hys head & hys feete / we might the better know whether it were the true Bucer or no. For although I will not say but that thys may be Bucers doing / yet it seemeth very straunge / that Bucer should not only contrary to the learned wryters now / but also contrary to all lear­ned antiquity / and contrary to the practise of the church / whilest there was any tollerable estate / alow of womens baptising. De [...]irginive. Tertullian sayeth it is not permit­ted vnto a woman to speake in the churche / nor to teache / nor to baptise / nor to do any worke of a man / muche lesse of a mynister. Lib. de Bapt. And in an other place / al­though he do permit it to be done of lay men in the tyme of necessitie (as it is ter­med) yet he geueth not that lycence to the woman. Epiph. li. 1. contra hereses. Epiphanius vpbraydeth Marcian that he suffred women to baptise / and. Lib. 2. vbi. de phrygib. & Priscil. in an other booke he derydeth them that they made women byshops / and. Lib. 3. in an other booke he sayth / it was not graunted onto the holy mother of Christ to baptise her sonne. 1. Li. de merit. & remis. peccata 24. ca. Augustin al­though he were of that minde / that children could not be saued without baptisme / yet in the tyme of necessitie (as it is called) he doth not allow eyther of baptisme in priuate houses or by women / but when there was daunger the women hasted to cary the children vnto the church / and although. Contra ep. parmen. lib. 2. 13. cap. he doe seeme to allow of the baptisme of a lay man in the tyme of necessitie / yet there also he mentioneth not womens baptisme / and further he doubteth whether the childe should be baptised agayne / which was baptised by a lay man. Tom. 1. con, ca. 100. And in y^e fourth councel of Carthage it is simply without exception decreed / y^• a woman ought not to baptise. The au­thors [Page 146] of the Admonition obiect that necessitie of saluation is tyed to the sacra­mentes by thys meanes / and that men are confirmed in that olde error / that no man can be saued with out baptisme / which in deede is true. For must it not bee thought to be done of necessitie / and vpon great extremity / for the doing whereof the orders that God hath set (that it should be done in the congregation / & by the mynister of the gospell) are broken? Yes verely. And I will further say / that al­though that the infants which dye without baptisme should be assuredly damned (which is most false) yet ought not the orders which God hath set in his church / to be broken after thys sort. For as the saluation of men ought to be deare vnto vs: so the glory of God which consisteth in that hys orders be kept / ought to bee much more deare / that if at any tyme the controuersy could be betwene hys glory and our saluation / our saluation ought to fall that hys glory may stand.

Now in the 187. page M. Doctor answeareth heereunto / that thys imply­eth no more that the saluation is tyed to the sacramentes / then when it is taught that infants must be baptysed / and not tary vntill they come to the age of discreti­on. Which how truely it is spoken / when as the one hath ground of the scripture / the other hath none / the one approued by the continuall / and almost the generall practise of the church / the other vsed in the corrupt and rotten estate thereof / let all men iudge. Therefore for so much as the mynistery of the worde and sacra­mentes goe together / & that the mynistery of the word may not be committed vn­to women / and for that thys euill custome hath rysen fyrst of a false vnderstan­ding of the scripture / and then of a false conclusion of that vntrue vnderstanding (which is / that they can not be saued which are not baptised) and for that the au­thors them selues of that error / did neuer seeke no remedy of the mischeefe in wo­mens or priuate baptim: And last of all for that if there were any remedy agaynst that mischefe in such kynde of baptisme / yet it ought not to be vsed / being agaynst the institution of God & hys glory / I conclude that the priuate baptisme / and by women is vtterly vnlawfull. There followeth the priuate communion which is found fault with / both for the place wherein it is mynistred / & for the small num­ber of communicants which are admitted / by the bocke of seruice. Touching the place before is spoken sufficiently / it reasteth to consider of the number. But be­fore I come to that / I will speake some thing of the causes & beginning of recei­uing in houses / & of the mynistring of the Communion vnto sicke folkes. It is not to be denyed / but that thys abuse is very auncient / and was in Iustin Mar­tyrs tyme / in Tertullians and Cyprians tyme / euen as also there were other abuses crept into the supper of the Lord / and that very grose / as the mingling of water with wine / and therein also a necessitie and great mystery placed / as it may appeare both by Iustine Martyr and Cyprian. Which I therefore by the way doe admonish the reader of / that the antiquity of thys abuse of pryuate communi­on / bee not preiudiciall to the truthe / no more then the mingling of water / with that opynion of necessitie / that those fathers had of it / is or oughte to bee preiu­diciall to that that wee vse in mynistring the cuppe with pure wine according to the instytution. I say therefore that thys abuse was auncient / and rose vpon these causes. First of all in the prymitiue church the dyscipline of the churche was so seuere and so extreame / that if any which professed the truth / and were of the body of the church / did through infirmitie deny the truth / & ioyned hym self vnto the idolatrous seruice / although he repenting came againe vnto the church / yet was he not receiued to the communion of the Lords supper any more. And yet lying in extremitie of sickenes / and redy to depart thys lyfe / if hee dyd require the communion in token that the church had forgeuen the faulte / and was recon­cyled altogether vnto that person that had so fallen / they graunted that he might be partaker of it / as may appeare by the story of Serapion. Another cause was Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 43. that which was before alleaged / which is the false opynion which they had con­ceiued [Page 147] / that all those were condemned / that receiued not the supper of the Lord / & therfore when as those that were (as they called thē cathecumeni) which is yong nouices in relygion neuer admitted to the supper / or yong children fell sicke daun­gerously / they mynistred the supper of the Lord vnto them / least they should want their voyage victuall (as they termed it) which abuse notwithstanding was nei­ther so auncient as the other / nor so generall. And there wanted not good men which declared their mislyking / and dyd decree agaynst both the abuses / & agaynst all maner communicating in priuate houses. As in the councell of * Laodicea it Tom. 1. canon. 58. was ordayned that neyther byshop nor elder shuld make any oblation / that was / mynister any communion in houses. Besides therfore that I haue before shew­ed the vnlawfulnesse generally of mynistring the sacrament in priuate places / see­ing that the custome of mynistring thys supper vnto the sicke / rose vpon corrupt causes and rotten foundations / & considering also (God be praysed) in these times there are none dryuen by feare to renounce the truth / whereupon any such excom­munication should ensue / which in the extremitie of sicknesse should be mitigated after thys sort (for no man now that is in extreame sicknesse / is cast downe or else assaulted with thys temptation y^t he is cut of from the church) I say these things considered / it followeth that thys mynistring of communion in priuate houses & to the sicke is vnlawfull / as that which rose vpon euil groundes: & if it were law­full / yet that now in these times of peace / & when the sicke are not excommunica­ted / there is no vse of it. And so it appeareth / how little the custome of the olde church doth helpe M. Doctor in thys poynt.

And as for that he sayth Peter Martyr & Bucer / doe allow the communi­on exhibited to the sicke persons / when he sheweth that / he shal haue answer. For wher he saith he hath declared it in an other treatise / either y^e Printer hath left out y^e treatise / or M. Doc. wonderfully forgetteth hym selfe / or else he meaneth some odde thing / that he hath written / & layd vp in some corner of his study. For surely there is no such saying in all hys boke before / nor yet after / so far as I can finde.

Now remayneth to be spoken of the number of communicants / & that there is fault in the appoynting of the seruice booke / not only for that it admitteth in the tyme of plage / that one with y^e mynister may celebrate the supper of the Lord in the house / but for that it ordayneth a communion in the church / when of a great number which assemble there / it admitteth three or fower / the abuse and incon­uenience whereof may thus bee considered. The holy sacrament of the supper of the Lorde / is not only a seale and confirmation of the promises of God vnto vs / but also a profession of our coniunction / as well with Christ our sauiour and with God / as also (as S. Paule teacheth) a declaration and profession that wee 1. Cor. 10. 17. are at one with oure brethren: so that it is fyrst a sacrament of the knitting of all the body generally / and of euery member particularly with the heade / and then of the members of the body one with an other. Now therefore seeing that euery particular church and body of Gods people / is a representation / and as it were a liuely portraiture of the whole church and body of Christ / it followeth that that which we can not doe with all the church scattered throughout the whole world (for the distances of places whereby we are seuered) we ought to doe with that church whereunto God hath raunged vs / as much as possibly or conueniently may be. The departing therefore of the rest of the church from those three or fower / is an open profession that they haue no communion / fellowshippe / nor v­nitie with them / that doe communicate: and lykewise of those three or foure / that they haue none with the rest that ioyne not them selues thereunto: when as both by the many grapes making one cuppe / and cornes making one loafe / that whole church being many parsons / are called as to the vnitie which they haue one with an other / and altogether amongst them selues: so to the declaration and profes­sion of it / by receiuing one with an other / and altogether amongst them selues: [Page 148] And as if so be that we do not celebrate as we may possibly and conueniently / the supper of the Lord / we thereby vtter our want of loue towardes the Lord which hath redeemed vs: so if we doe not communicate together with the churche / so farre forth as we may do conueniently / we betray the want of our loue that we haue one towardes an other. And therefore S. Paul dryuing heereunto / willeth 1. Cor. 11. 33. that one shoulde tary for an other / reprehending that when one preuenteth and commeth before an other / saying: that that is to take euery man hys owne sup­per / and not to celebrate the Lords supper. Not that so many men or women as there came / so many tables were / for that had not bene possible in so great assem­blyes / but that they sorted them selues into certayne companyes / and that they came scattering one after an other / and that in stead of making one supper of the Lord / they dyd make dyuers.

These things being considered / the reason which the Admonition vseth in the 185. page / where thys matter is spoken of / which is / drinke you all of thys / is not so rydiculous as M. Doctor maketh it. For although that it doe neyther proue that 12. or 20. or any other definite number must of necessitie receyue / yet it proueth that as all they which were present / dyd communicate: And so as ma­ny as in the church are fit to receiue the sacraments / or may conueniently receiue them together / shoulde follow that example in celebrating the supper together. And it is probably to be thought / that if our sauiour Christ had not bene restray­ned by the law of God touching the passeouer vnto hys owne family and to as many onely as would serue to eate vppe a Lambe by them selues / that he would Exod. 12. 3. haue celebrated hys supper / amongst other of hys disciples and professoures of hys doctryne. But for so muche as it was meete that hee shoulde celebrate hys supper there and then / where and when hee dyd celebrate hys passeouer / for the cause before by me alleaged / it pleased hym to keepe hys first supper with the fewer / for that the law of communication vnto the passeouer / which was ioyned wyth the supper / woulde not admit any greater number of communicants / then was sufficient to eate vp the passeouer.

And althoughe it be cleare and playne / that when it is sayde drincke ye all of thys / and tary one for an other / these sayinges are ment of that particulare congregation or assembly / which assemble themselues together to be taught by one mouth of the mynister: yet I haue therefore put thys caution (as muche as may be possyble) least any man shoulde cauill / as though I would haue no com­munion / vntill all the godly through the world should meete together. Likewise I haue put thys caution (as much as may be conueniently) for although it be pos­sible / that a perticulare church may communicate at one table in one day and to­gether: yet maye the same be inconuenient for dyuers causes. As if the num­ber should be very great / so that to haue them all communicate together / it would require suche a long tyme / as the tarying out of the whole action / would hazarde eyther the lyfe / or at least the health of dyuers there. Agayne / for as much as o­ther some being at the churche / it is meete that other should be at home / vppon occasyon of infantes and suche lyke thinges / as require the presence of some to tary at home. In these cases and suche lyke / the inconueniences doe delyuer vs from the gilte of vncharitablenes / and forsaking the fellowship of the church / for that wee doe not heere seuere oure selues / but are by good and iust causes seuered: which gilte wee shall neuer escape / if beside suche necessarye causes wee pretende those that are not / or hauing not so muche as a pretence / yet not­wythstanding seperate our selues / as the dayly practise thorough out the church doth shew.

But it may be obiected / that in thys poynt the booke of Common prayer is not in fault / which doth not only not forbid that all the church should receiue together / but also by a good & godly exhortation moueth those that be present / that [Page 149] they should not departe / but communicate altogether. It is true that it doth not forbid / and that there is godly exhortation for that purpose / but that (I say) is not enough / for neither should it suffer that three or foure should haue a commu­nion by them selues (so many being in the church meete to receiue / and to whom the supper of the Lord doth of right appertaine) & it ought to prouide / that those whych woulde wythdrawe them selues / shoulde be by Ecclesiasticall discipline / at all times / and now also vnder a godly Prince by ciuill punishment brought to communicate wyth their brethren. And thys is the law of God / and thys is now and hath bene heeretofore the practise of churches reformed. All men vnderstand that the passeouer was a figure of the Lords supper / and that there should be as straight bonds to binde men to celebrate the remembrance of our spirituall deliue­rance / as there was to remember the deliuerance out of Egipt. But whosoeuer did not then communicate with the rest at that time / when the passeouer was ea­ten / was excommunicated / as it may appeare in the boke of Numbers / where he Num. 9. 13. sayeth / that whosoeuer did not communicate being cleane / his soule should be cut off from amongst the people of God. Therfore thys neglect / or contempt rather of the Lordes supper / ought to be punished wyth no les punishment / especially when as (after the church hath proceeded in that order whych our sauior Christ appoynteth of admonishing) they be not sory for their fault / and promise amende­ment. And that this was the custome of the churches / it may appeare by the. 9. of those canons / whych are fathered of the apostles / wher it is decreed that all the Conc. Apo. canon. 9. faithfull that entred into the congregation / and heard the scriptures red / and dyd not tary out the prayers & the holy Communion / should be as those whych were causers of disorders in the church / seperated from the church / (or as it is transla­ted of an other) depriued of the Communion. Also in the councell of Braccara it Conc. 2. Bracca cap. 83. tom. 2. was decreed / that if any entring into the church of God / heard the Scriptures / and afterward of wantonnes or losenes / wythdrewe hym selfe from the commu­nion of the sacrament / and so brake the rule of discipline in the reuerende sacra­ments / should be put out of the church / till such time as he had by good frutes de­clared hys repentaunce.

But heere also may rise an other doubt of the former wordes of Moses in the boke of Numbers / for seing that he maketh thys exception (if they be cleane) it may be sayd / that those that depart / do not fele themselues mete to receiue / and therfore depart / the other .iij. or .iiij. or moe / feele themselues meete and disposed for that purpose: whervpon it may seeme that it is neither reason to compell those to come / which feele not themselues meete / nor to reiect them that feele that good disposition and preparation in themselues. For answer whervnto / we must vn­derstand that the vncleannes whych Moyses speaketh of / was such as men could not easely auoid / and whervnto they might fall sometimes by necessary duety / as by handling their dead / whych they were by the rule of charitye bound to burye / sometimes by touching at vnwares a deade body / or by sitting in the place where some vncleane body had sitten / or by touching such things whych the law iudged vncleane / which thing cannot be alleaged in those that are now of the church. For as many as be of it / and wythall of suche discretion as are able to proue and exa­mine themselues / can haue no excuse at all / if they may be at the church / to with­draw themselues from the holy supper of the Lord. For if they will say that they be not meete / it may be answered vnto them / that it is their owne fault: and fur­ther / if they be not meete to receiue the holy sacrament of the supper / they are not meete to heare the woord of God / they are not meete to be partakers of the pray­ers of the church / and if they be for one / they are also for the other. For with that boldnes / and wyth that duetye or lawfulnes (I speake of those whych are of the church / and of discretion to examine themselues) I say wyth what lawfulnes they may offer themselues to the prayers / and to the hearing of the word of God / [Page 150] they may also offer themselues vnto the Lordes supper. And to whomsoeuer of thē the Lord wil communicate himselfe by preaching the word / vnto the same he wil not refuse to communicate himselfe by receiuing of the sacramēts. For who­soeuer is of Gods housholde and familye / he neede not be afraide to come to the Lords table / nor dout but that the Lord will fede him there: and whatsoeuer he be that is a membre of the body of Christ / may be assured that he receiueth life frō Christ the head as well by the arteries & condints of the supper of the Lord / as by the preaching of the word of God. So that it must needes folow / that the not receiuing of those whych depart out of the church / whē there is any communion celebrated / procedeth either of vaine and superstitious feare / growing of grose ig­norance of themselues and of the holy sacraments: or else of an intollerable negli­gence or rather contempt / of the whych neither the one nor the other shuld be ei­ther borne wyth or nourished / either by permitting .iij. or .iiij. to communicate a­lone / or els in letting them whych depart / go so easely away with so great a fault / whych ought to be seuerely punished. And vpon thys either contempt or super­stitious feare drawne from the papists Lenton preparation of. 40. dayes / eare­shrift / displing. &c. it commeth to pas / that men receyuing the supper of the Lord but seldome / when they fall sicke must haue the supper ministred vnto them in their houses / whych otherwise being once euery weke receiued before / should not brede any such vnquietnes in thē / when they can not come to receiue it. Although as I haue before shewed / if they had neuer receiued it before / yet that priuate re­ceiuing were not at any hand to be suffered. And thus hauing declared what I thinke to be faulty in the communion boke in thys poynt / and the reasons why / and wyth all answeared to that whych eyther M. doctor alleageth in thys place of the. 80. and. 81. and likewise in the. 152. &. 185. pages touching thys matter / I come now vnto that whych is called the Iewishe purifying by the admoniti­on / and by the seruice boke afore time the purification of women.

Now to the churching of women / in the which title yet kept / there seemeth to be hid a great part of the Iewish purification. For lyke as in the old law shee that had brought forthe a childe / was holden vncleane / vntill suche time as shee Leu. 12. 2. 4. 5 came to the temple to shew her selfe after shee had brought forthe a man or a wo­man: so thys terme of churching of her / canseme to import nothing els / thē a ba­nishment / & (as it were) a certen excommunication from the church / during the space y^t is betwene the time of her deliuery / & of her comming vnto y^• church. For what doth els thys churching implie / but a restoring her vnto y^• church / whych cā not be w^tout some bar or shutting forth presupposed. It is also called y^e thanks gi­uing / but the principall title whych is the directory of this part of the Liturgie / & placed in the top of the leafe / as y^e whych the translator best liked of is (churching of women.) To pas by y^e / that it wil haue thē come as nigh the communion table as may be / as they came before to y^• high altare (because I had spoken once gene­rally against such ceremonies) y^• of all other is most Iewish / & approcheth nerest vnto the Iewish purification / y^• she is commaūded to offer accustomed offrings. Wherin besides that / the very word offring caryeth w^t it a strong sent & suspitiō of a sacrifice (especially being vttered simply w^tout any addition / it can not be w^t ­out danger / that the boke maketh the custome of y^e popish church (whych was so corrupt) to be y^e rule & measure of this offring. And although the meaning of the boke is not / y^e it shuld be any offring for sin / yet this manner of speaking may be a stūbling stock in the way of y^• ignorant & simple / & the wicked & obstinate therby are confirmed & hardned in their corruptions. The best which can be answered in this case is / y^e it is for y^e relief of y^e minister / but thē it shuld be remēbred / first that the minister liueth not any more of offerings. Secondarily / y^t the paiment of the ministers wages is not so conuenient either in the church or before all the people. And thirdly / y^• therby we fal into y^• fault whych we condemne in popery / & that [Page 151] is / y^• besides the ordinary liuing apoynted for the seruice of the priests in y^e who [...]e / they toke for their seueral seruices of masse / baptisme / burying / churching. &c. se­ueral rewards / which thing being of y^e seruice boke wel abolished in certain other things / I cānot see what good cause there shuld be / to retain it in this and certain other. Now wheras m. D. saith y^t the place of the. 15. of the Acts alledged by the admonition / maketh nothing against this / he shuld haue considered / that if it be a Iewish ceremony (as they suppose it / ) it is to be abolished vtterly. For it being shewed there y^e all the ceremonial law of Moses is don away through our sauior Christ / this also a part thereof must nedes be therin comprised. And whereas he saith / that it being nothing els but a thanks geuing for her deliuerance / can not be therfore but christian & very godly / I answer y^e if there shuld be solemne and ex­pres geuing of thanks in the church for euery benefit / eyther equal or greater thē thys / whych any singular person in the church dothe receiue / we should not only haue no preaching of the word / nor ministring of the sacramēts / but we shuld not haue so much leysure as to do any corporal or bodily worke / but shuld be like vn­to those heretikes / which wer called of the Syriake word Messalians, or continual Theodor. lib. 4. 11. ca. prayers / & whych did nothing els but pray. For the Psalme. 121. spoken of in the 155. page / it being shewed that it is not meete to haue any such solemne thankes geuing / it is needeles to debate of the Psalme / wherewyth the thankes geuing shuld be made. And wheras in. 101. and. 102. pages vnto the admonition / obiec­ting that the comming in the vaile to the church more then / thē at other times / is a token of shame or some folly committed / M. D. iestingly leaueth the matter to the womēs answer. A little true knowledge of diuinity would haue taught him / that the bringing in or vsurping wythout authority any ceremony in the congre­gation / is bothe an earnester matter / then may be iested at / and a waightier then shoulde be permitted vnto the discretion of euery woman / considering that the same hath bene so horribly abused in time of poperye.

The holy dayes folow / of whych M. Doctor sayth / that so they be not vsed superstitiously or vnprofitably they may be commaūded. I haue shewed before / that they were. If they were so indifferent as they are made / yet being kept of the papistes whych are the enemies of God / they ought to be abolished. And if it were as easy a matter to pull oute the superstition of the obseruing of those holy­dayes out of mennes heartes / as it is to protest and to teache that they are not commaunded for any religion to be put in them / or for any to make conscience of the obseruing of them / as thoughe there weresome necessary worshyp of God in the keping of them: then were they much more tollerable. But when as the con­tinuance of them doth norishe wicked superstition in the mindes of men / and that the doctrine whych shuld remedy the superstition through the fewnes & skarcitye of able ministers / can not come to the most part of them whych are infected wyth this disease / and that also where it is preached / the frute therof is in part hindred / whylest the common people attend oftentymes rather to that whych is done / thē to that whych is taught / being a thyng indifferent (as it is sayd) it ought to be a­bolyshed / as that whych is not only not fittest to holde the people in the sincere worshypping of God / but also as that whych keepeth them in their former blind­nes and corrupt opinions whych they haue conceyued of such holy dayes. And if they had bene neuer abused neyther by the Papistes nor by the Iewes (as they haue bene and are daily) yet suche making of holy dayes is neuer wythout some great daunger of brynging in some euill and corrupt opinions into the mindes of men. I will vse an example in one / and that the chefe of holy dayes / & most gene­rally & of longest time obserued in y^e church / whych is the feast of Easter / whych was kept of some more dayes of some fewer. How many thousands are there / I will not say of the ignorant papistes / but of those also whych professe the gospell / whych when they haue celebrated those dayes w^t dilygent heede taken vnto their [Page 152] life / and wyth some earnest deuotion in praying and hearing the word of God / do not by and by thinke / that they haue well celebrated the feast of Easter / and yet haue they thus notably deceiued them selues. For S. Paul teacheth that the ce­lebrating 1. Cor. 5. 8. of the feast of the christians Easter / is not as the Iewes Easter was / for certen dayes / but sheweth that we must keepe thys feast all the dayes of oure life in the vnleauened bread of sincerity and of truth. By whych we see that the obseruing of the feast of Easter for certain dayes in the yeare / doth pul out of our mindes or euer we be aware / the doctrine of the gospell / and causeth vs to rest in that neare consideration of our dueties for the space of a few dayes / which should be extended to alour life. But besides the incommodities that rise of making such holy dayes / and cōtinuing of those whych are so horribly abused / where it is con­fessed that they are not necessary: besides this / I say the matter is not so indiffe­rent as it is made. I confes that it is in the power of the churche to appoynt so many dayes in the weeke or in the yeare (in the whych the congregation shal as­semble to heare the word of God / and receiue the sacraments / and offer vp pray­ers vnto God) as it shall thinke good according to those rules whych are before alleaged. But y^• it hath power to make so many holy dayes (as we haue) wher­in no man may worke any parte of the day / and wherin men are commaunded to cease from their daily vocations of plowing and exercising their handy crafts. &c. that I deny to be in the power of the church. For proufe wherof I will take the fourth commaundement / and no other interpretation of it / then M. doctor allow­eth of in the. 174. page / whych is / that God licenseth / and leaueth it at the liberty of euery man to worke sixe dayes in the weeke / so that he rest the seuenth daye. Seeing that therefore that the Lord hath left it to all men at libertye / that they myght labor (if they thinke good) sixe dayes: I say the church nor no man can take thys liberty away from them / and driue them to a necessary rest of the body. And if it be lawfull to abridge the liberty of the church in thys poynt / and in stead that the Lord sayth sixe dayes thou mayst labor if thou wilt / to say thou shalt not labor sixe dayes: I do not see why the church may not as well / wheras the Lord sayth thou shalt rest the seuenth day / commaunde that thou shalt not rest the se­uenth day. For if the church may restraine the liberty that God hath geuen thē / it may take away the yoke also that God hath put vpon them.

And whereas you say in the. 173. page / that notwithstanding thys fourthe commaundement / the Iewes had certaine other feastes whych they obserued: in deede the Lord whych gaue thys generall law / might make as many exceptions as he thought good / and so long as he thought good. But it foloweth not because the Lord did it / that therfore the church may do it / vnles it hath commaundemēt and authority from God so to do. As when there is any generall plague or iudge­ment of God either vpon the churche / or comming towardes it / the Lorde com­maundeth in suche a case that they should sanctifie a generall fast / and proclaime Ioel. 2. 15. ghnatsarah, whych signifieth a prohibition or forbidding of ordinary works / and is the same Hebrewe word wherwyth those feastes dayes are noted in the lawe wherin they shuld rest. The reason of whych commaūdement of the Lord was / that as they abstained that day as much as might be conueniently from meat / so they might abstaine from their daily workes / to the ende they might bestowe the whole day in hearing the word of God / and humbling themselues in the congre­gation / confessing their faultes / and desiring the Lorde to turne away from hys fearce wrathe. In thys case the churche hauing commaundement to make a holy day / may and ought to do it / as the church which was in Babilon did / during the time of their captiuity: but where it is destitute of a commaundement / it may not presume by any decree to restraine that liberty whych the Lord hath geuen.

Nowe that I haue spoken generally of holy dayes / I come vnto the apo­stles and other saints dayes / whych are kept wyth vs. And thoughe it were law­full [Page 153] for the church to ordaine holy dayes to our sauioure Christe or to the blessed Trinity: yet it is not therfore lawfull to institute holy dayes to the apostles and other saintes / or to their remembrance. For although I confes as muche as you say in the. 153. page / that the church of England doth not meane by thys keping of holy dayes that the saintes shoulde be honoured / or as you alledge in the. 175. and. 176. pages / that wyth vs the saints are not prayed vnto / or that it doth pro­poūd them as meritorious / yet that is not enough. For as we reason against the popish purgatorie / that it is therfore naught / for as much as neyther in the olde Testament nor in the newe / there is any mention of prayer at any time for the dead: so may it be reasoned against these holy dayes ordained for the remēbrance of the saintes / that for so much as the old people dyd neuer keepe any feast or holy day for the remembrance eyther of Moses or Daniel / or Iob / or Abraham / or Dauid / or any other / how holy or excellent so euer they were: nor the apostles nor the churches in their time neuer instituted any eyther to kepe the remembrance of Stephen / or of the virgin Mary / or of Iohn Baptist / or of any other notable and rare personage / that the instituting and erecting of them nowe / and thys at­tempt by the churches whych folowed / whych haue not such certen and vndoub­ted interpreaters of the will of God / as the prophets and apostles were whych lyued in those churches / is not wythout some note of presumption / for that it vn­dertaketh those thyngs whych the primitiue churche in the apostles times (ha­uing greater giftes of the spirite of God then they that folowed them had) durste not venter vpon.

Moreouer I haue shewed before / what force the name of euery thyng hath to cause men to thynke so of euery thyng / as it is named / and therfore although you say in the. 175. page that in calling these holy dayes the dayes of suche or such a Sainte / there is nothyng else meante but that the Scriptures whych are that day red / concerne that saynte / and contayne eyther hys callyng / preachyng / persecution / martyrdom. &c. yet euery one doth not vnderstand so much. For be­sides that the corrupt custome of popery hath caryed theyr mindes to an other in­terpretation / the very name and appellation of the day teacheth otherwise. For se­ing that the dayes dedicated to the Trinity / and those that are consecrate to our sauior Christ / are in that they be called Trinity day or the Natiuity day of our sauior Christ / by and by taken to be instituted to the honor of our sauyor Christe and of the Trinity: so lykewyse the people / when it is called S. Paules day / or the blessed virgin Maryes day / can vnderstand nothing therby / but that they are instituted to the honor of S. Paule or of the virgin Mary / vnles they be other­wyse taught. And if you say let them so be taught / I haue answeared that the teaching in thys lande can not by any order whych is yet taken come to the moste parte of those / whych haue drunke thys poyson: and where it is taught / it were good that the names were abolyshed / that they should not helpe to vnteach that / whych the preaching teacheth in thys behalfe.

Furthermore / seeing the holy dayes be ceremonies of the church / I see not why we may not heere renue Augustines complaint / y^t the estate of the Iewes was more tollerable then oures is (I speake in thys poynt of holy dayes) for if their holy dayes and oures be accompted / we shallbe foūd to haue more then dou­ble as many holy dayes as they had. And as for all the commodityes whych we receiue by them / whereby M. doctor goeth about to proue the goodnes and law­fulnes of their institution / as that the scriptures are there red and expounded / the patience of those saintes in their persecution and Martyrdome is to the edifying of the church remembred / and yearely renewed: I say / that we myght haue all those commodities wythout all those dangers whych I haue spoken of / & wyth­out any keping of yearely memory of those sayntes / and (as it falleth out) in bet­ter and more profitable sorte. For as I sayd before of the keping of Easter / that [Page 154] it tyeth / and (as it were) fettereth a meditation of the Easter to a fewe dayes / whych should reache to all our age and time of oure lyfe: so those celebrations of the memories of saintes and martyrs / streighten our consideration of them vnto those dayes / whych should continually be thought of / & daily as long as we liue. And if that it be thoughte so good and profitable a thyng that thys remembrance of them should be vpon those dayes / wherin they are supposed to haue dyed / yet it foloweth not therefore that after thys remembrance is celebrated by hearing the scriptures concerning them / and prayers made to folowe their constancy / that all the rest of the day should be kept holy in such sorte / as men should be debarred of their bodely labors / and of exercising their daily vocations.

Nowe where as maister Doctor citeth Augustine and Ierome / to proue that in the Churches in their times / there were holy dayes kepte besydes the Lordes day / he myght haue also cited Ignatius and Tertullian / and Cyprian / whych are of greater auncienty / and would haue made more for the credit of hys cause / seeing he measureth all hys truthe almoste throughe the whole booke / by the croked measure and yarde of time. For it is not to be denyed / but thys kee­ping of holy dayes (especially of the Easter and Pentecost) are very auncient / and that these holy dayes for the remembrance of Martyrs / were vsed of long time. But these abuses were no auncienter then other were / groser also then thys was / as I haue before declared / and were easy further to be shewed / if nede required. And therefore I appeale from these examples to the scriptures / and to the examples of the perfectest church that euer was / whych was that in the apo­stles times. And yet also I haue to say / that the obseruation of those feastes first of all / was much better then of later times. For Socrates (confessing / that ney­ther Lib. 5. c. 22. our sauioure Christ nor the apostles / dyd decree or institute any holy dayes / or lay any yoke of bondage vppon the neckes of those whych came to the prea­ching) addeth further / that they did vse first to obserue the holy dayes by custom / and that as euery man was disposed at home. Whych thing if it had remained in that freedome / that it was done by custome / and not by commaundement / at the will of euery one / and not by constraint / it had bene much better then it is nowe / and had not drawne suche daungers vpon the posteritye / as did after ensue / and we haue the experience of.

As touching M. Bucers / M. Bullingers & Illiricus allowance of them / if they meane such a celebration of them / as that in those dayes the people may be assembled and those partes of the scriptures which concerne them whose remem­brance is solemnised / red / and expounded / and yet men not debarred after from their daily works / it is so much the les matter: if otherwise / that good leaue they giue the churches to dissent from them in that poynt / I do take it graunted vn­to me / being by the grace of God one of the churche.

Althoughe as touching M. Bullenger it is to be obserued / since the time that he wrote that vppon the Romaines / there are about .xxxv. yeares / sythens whych time although he holde still that the feastes dedicated vnto the Lord (as of the Natiuity / Easter / and Pentecost) may be kept / yet he denyeth flatly that it is lawfull to keepe holy the dayes of the apostles / as it appeareth in the confessi­on of the Tigurine church ioyned wyth others. Confess. eccle. Tigur. & alia­rum eccle. c. 24.

As for M. Caluine / as the practise of hym and the church where he lyued was and is / to admit no one holy day besides the Lords day: so can it not be she­wed out of any parte of hys workes (as I thynke) that he approued those holy dayes / whych are nowe in question. He sayeth in deede in hys Institution: that he wil not condemne those churches whych vse them: No more do we the church of Englande / neyther in thys nor in other things / whych are meere to be refor­med. For it is one thing to mislike / another thyng to cōdemne / and it is one thing to condemne some thing in the church / and an other thing to condemn the church [Page 155] for it. And as for the places cited out of the epistles to the Galathians and Col­lossians / there is no mention of any holy dayes / eyther to saintes or to any other. And it appeareth also that he defendeth not other churches / but the church of Geneua / and answeareth not to those whych obiect against the keping of saintes dayes or any holy dayes (as they are called) besides the Lords day / but against those whych would not haue the Lords day kept still / as a day of rest from bode­ly labor / as it may appeare both by hys place vpon the Collossians / and especial­ly in that whych is alleaged out of hys Institutions. And that he meaneth no­thing les then suche holy dayes / as you take vpon you to defende / it may appeare first in the place of the Colossians / where he sayeth that the dayes of rest whych are vsed of them / are vsed for pollicy sake. Nowe it is well knowne / that as it is pollicy and a way to preserue the estate of things / and to keepe thē in a good con­tinuance and succes / that as well the beastes as the men whych labor sixe dayes should rest the seuenth: so it tendeth to no pollicy nor wealth of the people or pre­seruation of good order / that there should be so many dayes / wherin men should cease from worke / being a thyng whych breedeth idlenesse / and consequently po­uerty / besides other disorders and vices / whych alwayes goe in company wyth idlenes. And in the place of hys Institutions he declareth hym selfe yet more plainly / when he sayeth / that those odde holy dayes then are wythout superstiti­on / when they be ordained only for the obseruing of discipline and order. Where­by he geueth to vnderstand / that he would haue them no further holy dayes / then for the time whych is bestowed in the exercise of the discipline and order of the churche / and that for the rest / they shoulde be altogither / as other dayes / free to be laboured in. And so it appeareth / that the holy dayes ascribed to Saintes by the seruice booke / is a iust cause why a man can not safely without exception sub­scribe vnto the seruice.

Nowe wheras maister Doctor sayeth / it maketh no matter whether these things be taken out of the Portuis / so they be good. &c. I haue proued first they are not good / then if they were / yet being not necessary / & abused horribly by the papistes / other being as good / and better then they / ought not to remaine in the church. And as for Ambrose saying all truthe of whome so euer it be sayde / is of the holy ghoste: it I were disposed to moue questions / I coulde demaund of him whych careth not of whome he haue the truthe / so he haue it / what our sauioure Marke. 1. 24. Luke. 4. 41. Christe meant to refuse the testimony of Deuils / when they gaue a cleare testi­mony that he was the sonne of God / and the holy one: and what S. Paule ment to be angry / and to take it so greuously / that the Pithonisse sayd / he and his com­panion Actes. 16. 17. were the seruaunts of the high God / whych preached vnto them the way of saluation. Heere was truthe / and yet reiected / and I would knowe whether maister Doctor would say that these spake by the spirite of God. Thus whilest wythout all iudgement he snatcheth heere a sentence / and there another out of the Doctors / and that of the worste / as if a man should of purpose chuse oute the drosse / and leaue the siluer: wythin a while he wil make no great difference / not only betwene the prophets and apostles / and prophane wryters / as Aristotle and Plato / but not betweene them / whych speake not by the conduite and leading of the holy ghost / but by the violent thrusting of the wicked spirite.

The replie vnto the next section in the. 82. and. 83. and. 84. page.

HEre master doctor would faine (as it seemeth) if he durst / interpreat diligent preaching / and preaching in season / and out of scafon / to be preaching once a monthe. But because he dare not say so directly / he compasseth it about / and first putteth y^e case of one preaching twise a day verbally / and w^t smal substance of [Page 154] [...] [Page 155] [...] [Page 156] matter / and of another preaching but once in a monthe / and dothe it pithily and orderly and discretely / and concludeth that such a sermon once in a month / is nea­rer the minde of the Apostle / then all those other sermons made twise euery day: & yet the case is not so cleare / as he maketh it. For graunting that those (whych he calleth verbal sermons) haue some goodnes and edifying / it must be very sim­ple and slender meate / whych is not better being geuen euery day / then the best and daintiest meate once only in a moneth. For wyth the one / a man may liue al­though he be not lyking / wyth the other he being once fed / is afterwarde famy­shed. But howe if the case be put / that the monethly and long laboured sermons (as they are called) haue as little and les good wholesome doctrine in them / then the sermons whych are preached euery day. Assuredly for the most of those that goe so long wyth a Sermon / and whych I knowe / and haue heard: when they come to bryng it forthe / bryngforthe oftentimes more winde and vnprofitable matter / then any good and timely frute / or wholesome substanciall doctrine. And no maruell / for therein the word of God is fulfilled / whych declareth that the ta­lents of Gods gifts and grace are encreased by continuall vse and laying oute of Math. 25. 22. 23. &c. them / and of the other side diminished / and in the end taken quite away / when as they are suffered to lye so long rusting / and as it were digged in the ground.

And heere mayster Doctor taketh occasion to vtter hys stomacke againste London / flinging of one syde agaynst the women / of the other syde agaynst the ministers / whose dilygence because it maketh maister Doctors neglygence more to appeare / as a darcke and duskishe coloure matched wyth that whych is cleare and lightsome / he dothe goe aboute to deface / wyth the vntrue and flaunderous surmise / of lose neglygent and vnprofytable preaching. If there be some one such or two in London / it is too great iniurye therfore to charge indefinitely the com­pany of the ministers of London. Besides that M. Doctor dothe not see / howe firste he accuseth the byshop or euer he be aware / bothe in ordaining suche mini­sters / and not in reforming them / being so farre out of order / and then the arch­byshop / whych doth not require thys disorder at the byshops hande / since as (he sayeth) thys is so goodly and heauenly an order / to haue one byshop ouer many ministers / and one archbyshop ouer diuers byshops. And if we shall esteeme the pithynes and fastnes of preaching / by the fruites / as by the knowledge and feare of God in the people of London / and by faithfull and true heartes towardes the prince and the realme: I thinke that that whych he termeth friuolous / lose / and vnprofitable preaching will fall out to be waightier / and to leaue a deeper printe behinde them / then those monthly sermons whych he speaketh of: and the mini­sters of London better ministers whych preache twise a day / then those whych make the word of God nouell and dainties / and as M. Latimer pleasantly sayd / strawberies comming only at certen times in the yeare.

Of this thing M. Doctor speaketh againe in the. 167. page / but to this ef­fect altogither / and almost in the same wordes. To the next section being the rest of the. 84. page / I minde to say nothing / hauing before spoken of the faultes of the ceremonies and rites whych are vsed wyth vs.

The replie vnto the next section contained in. 86. 87. and. 88. pages.

AFter a number of woordes wythout matter / sayings wythout proufes / ac­cusations wythout any groundes or likelyhode of groundes / as that they be instrumentes of greedy guts and lustye roysters / to maintaine them in their iolitye / whych notwythstanding speake agaynste patronages / and woulde haue the lyuings of the churche / whych are idlely and vnprofitably spent (for the most part) applyed to the right vses of the pore / and of ministers and schollers / & that [Page 157] they would be discharged from eyuill and ecclesiasticall subiection / which humbly submitting them selues to the Queenes maiesty and all those that are sent of her / would deliuer the churches and them selues for the churches sake / from the vn­lawfull domynion of one / to the ende that they myght yelde them selues with their churches subiect to the lawfull ecclesiasticall gouernment of those which God hath appoynted in hys worde: After I say a number of such and like accu­sations mixed wyth most bitter and reprochfull wordes vnto all which / it is suf­fitient answer / that quod Verbo dictum est, Verbo sit negatum. As easely denied as sayde. He turneth hym selfe to those that be in authoritie / whome he woulde make beleeue that it standeth vpon the ouerthrow of the church / of relygion / of order / of the realme / and of the estate of Princes and magistrates / which are by this meanes established / & whose estates are made thys way most sure / when as y^• true causes of these clamoures and outcryes that M. Doctor maketh / is nothing else but the feare of the ouerthrow of that honor / which is to the dishonor of God and ignominy of hys church / and the establishing of that which maketh to the good dispensing of those goodes for the ayde and helpe of the church / which now serue to oppresse it. As for the court of faculties / the corruptions therof being so cleare / that all men see them / and so grose / that they which can not see may grope them: M. Doctor answeareth / that he knoweth not what it meaneth / and ther­fore is moued of modesty to thinke the best of it / which is but a simple shift. For besides that the Admonition speaketh nothing of it / but that the streates and high wayes talke of: if there had bene any defence for it / it is not to be thought that M. Doctor would haue bene so neglygent an aduocate / as to haue omitted it / se­ing if he were ignorant / he might haue hadde so easely and with so little coste the knowledge of it. As for hys modesty / hys bolde asseueration of things which are doubtfull / which are false / which are altogether vnlikely / which are impossible for hym to know / doth suffyciently bewray and make so well knowne / that no such visard or painting can serue to make men beleue / that mere modesty shut vp his mouth from speaking for the court of faculties / which hath opened his mouth so wyde for the defence of those things / wherin (as it falleth out) he hath declared hymselfe to haue lesse skill and vnderstanding / then he hath of that court.

The reply vnto the next section in the. 89. 90. 91. 92. 93. pages.

WHereas vnto the Admonition prouing out of the thirde of S. Mathew / that preaching muste goe before the mynistring of the sacramentes / you answere first / that it is agaynst all Logicke to conclude a generall rule vp­on a particulare example: you shall vnderstande that that which Iohn dyd in that poynt / he dyd it not as a singular person or as the sonne of ʒacharie / but as the mynister of the gospell / and therefore it appertayneth as well to all other my­nisters as vnto hym. For as it is a good conclusion / that for so much as Peter in that he is a man / is borne to haue / and by common course of nature hath two legges / therefore Iohn and Thomas and all the rest haue so: euen so for so much as Iohn by reason of hys ministery had neede first to preach / then to baptise / it followeth / that all others that haue that ministery committed vnto them must do the lyke. Secondarely you say / that it doth not appeare that he preached immedi­atly before he baptised them with water. And yet S. Mathew after that he had shewed that he preached repentaunce (which the other Euangelistes call the bap­tisme of repentance) he addeth that then the people were baptysed of him / which also may appeare in the Actes / where S. Paule noteth thys order to haue bene Act. 19. 5. kept. For although betwene the story of hys preaching and that which is sayde of hys baptising / there is interlaced a description of hys dyet and of hys apparel / yet these wordes (then came vnto hym. &c.) must needes be referred vnto the [Page 158] tyme which followed hys preaching. And where as you say / that it is manyfest that our sauiour Christ was baptysed without preaching: I would know of you what one worde doth declare that / when as the contrary rather doth appeare in S. Luke / which seemeth to note playnly that our sauiour Christ was bapti­sed / 3. Luk. 21. when the people were baptysed. But the people (as I haue shewed) were baptysed immediatly after they heard Iohn preach / therefore it is lyke / that our sauiour Christ was baptysed / after that he had heard Iohn preach. And it is ve­ry probable / that our sauiour Christ which dyd honoure the mynistery of God by the hand of men so farre / as he would voutchsafe to bee baptysed of Iohn / would not neglect or passe by hys mynistery of the word / being more precious then that of the sacrament / as it appeareth by Iohn that our sauiour Christ was present 1. Iohn. 26. at hys sermons / for so much as S. Iohn doth as he was preaching to the peo­ple poynt hym out with the finger / and told them that he was in the middest of them which was greater then he. And there is no doubt / but those words which our sauiour Christ sayd before hys supper / although they are gathered by the E­uangelistes into short sentences / were notwithstanding long sermons / touching the fruite of hys death and vse and ende of that sacrament. And thys order of Actes. 2. Act. 8. 12. 38. Act. 9. 17. 18. Act. 10. 34. Act. 16. 15. 33. Act. 20. 7. preaching immedyatly before the mynistring of the sacramentes / is continually noted of S. Luke throughout the whole story of the Actes of the Apostles. But I will not precisely say neyther yet doe the authors of the Admonition affirme (as M. Doctor surmyseth of them) that there must be preaching immediatly be­fore the admynistration of the sacramentes. Thys I say / that when as the lyfe of the sacramentes dependeth of the preaching of the worde of God / there must of necessitie the worde of God bee / not red but preached vnto the people / amongste whom the sacramentes are mynistred. And forasmuch as I haue proued before / that no man may mynister the sacramentes but he which is able to preache the word / although I dare not affirme / that there is an absolute necessitie / that the word should be preached immediatly before the sacramentes be mynistred / yet I can imagine no case / wherein it is eyther meete or conuenient or else almost suf­ferable / that the sacramentes should be mynistred without a sermon before them / for the mynister being as hee oughte of necessitie to bee / able to preache / oughte so to doe. And if it be sayde that hys health or voyce will not serue hym some­tymes to preache / when he is able enough to mynister the sacramentes: I say that eyther he ought to begge the helpe of an other mynister hard by / or else there is lesse inconuenience in deferring the celebration of the sacrament vntill hee bee strong enough to preach / then ministring it so maymedly and without a sermon / wherby it is sene / how iust cause M. Doctor hath to cal these blynde and vnlear­ned gatherings / which he with hys Egles eye and hys great learning can not scatter / nor once moue.

After thys M. Doctor accuseth the authors of the Admonition / as though they simply condemned reading the scriptures in the church / and thys accusation he followeth in many wordes and in dyners places / wherein as in a number of other places of theyr booke the authors of the Admonition haue cause to renew that olde complaynt of Theodorus / which is / that whensoeuer any thing is sayde that is vnpleasant / that is by and by expounded otherwyse then it is ment of hym that speaketh it: so that that which is geuen with the ryght hand / is re­ceiued with the left. For the authors of the Admonition declaring theyr vtter mislyking that there should be in stead of a preaching minister a reading mynister (if I may so call hym) and in stead of preaching / reading / are vntruely expounded of M. doctor / as though they condemned all reading in the church. And heere he maketh hym selfe worke / & picketh a quarell to blot a great deale of paper / & to proue that which no man denyeth / for besydes thys treatise he speaketh afterward of it in halfe a score pages / euen from the. 159. page vntill the. 1 [...]0. page / and so [Page 159] lighteth vs a candel at noone dayes. It is a token of a nature disposed to no great quietnesse / which rather then he would not striue / striueth with hym selfe. And although the cause be iust and good which he defendeth / yet I will note in a word or two / how as though there were pitch or some worse thing in hys handes / hee defyleth whatsoeuer he toucheth. First therefore he asketh / and so / that he doth most boldly and confidently affirme it / whether the word of God is not as effec­tual when it is red / as when it is preached / or whether reading be not preaching. In which two questions / although the one of them confuteth the other (for so much as if reading be preaching (as he sayeth) then the comparyson of the profite and efficacy betwene one and the other / is absurde) yet I will answere to both. I say therefore that the word of God is not so effectuall red as preached. For S. Paule sayth / that fayth commeth by hearing / & hearing of the word preached / 10. Rom. 14. so that the ordinary and especiall meanes to worke fayth by / is preaching and not reading. And although reading doe helpe to nourish the fayth which commeth by preaching / yet thys is geuen to the preaching cath exochen, that is by excellen­cy / and for that it is the excellentest and most ordinary meanes / to worke by / in y^e hartes of the hearers. The beholding of the creatures / & the consideration of the making of the world and of Gods wisdome / and wonderfull loue appearing in them / doth nourish and strengthen fayth / and yet may it not therefore in efficacy be compared to the preaching of the word of God. And to know that the worde of God preached / hath more force and is more effectuall then when it is red / it is to be obserued whereunto the preaching is compared. It is called a lifting or hea­uing vp of our sauiour Christ. Lyke vnto the displaying of a banner / as the ser­pent Iohn. 3. 14. was lift vp in the wildernes. As therefore that which is lyfted vp on hygh / is better and easelyer seene of a great company / then when it standeth or lyeth vpon the grounde or in some valley or low place: so the preaching of the gospell doth offer sooner and easlyer the truth thereof vnto the fayth (which is the eye of the hearer) then when it is red. The same also may bee sayde in that the prea­ching 2. Tim. 2. 15. is called a cutting of the worde of God / for as when the meate is cut and shred / it nourisheth more then when it is not so / so lykewyse it is in preaching and reading. And that whiche is brought by the authors of the Admonition / and so scornefully hurled away of Maister Doctor / that S. Paule compareth 1. Cor. 3. 6. the preaching vnto planting and watering / is a very notable place to proue that there is no saluation / without preaching. For as the husbandman receyueth no frute / vnlesse he both plant and water that which is planted: euen so there is no saluation to be looked for / where there is no preaching. And to thys also may bee well referred that the preaching is called of Saynt Luke an opening of the scrip­tures 24. Chap. 32. whereby it is declared / that they be as it were shutte / or clasped / or sealed vp vntill such tyme as they bee by exposition and declaration of them opened. It may bee that God doth sometymes worke fayth by reading only / especially wher preaching cannot bee / and so hee doth sometymes without reading by a wonder­full worke of hys spirite: but the ordinary wayes whereby God regenerateth hys children / is by the word of God / whiche is preached. And therfore Sa­lomon Prou. 29. 18. sayeth / that where Prophesie (whiche is not a bare readyng / but an exposytion and applycation of the scriptures) fayleth / there the people pea­ryshe. It is true / the woorde bothe preached and red / is all one / as the fyre couered wyth ashes / is the same when it is discouered. But [...]s when the fire is styrred vppe and discouered / it geueth more heate then when it is not: so the word of God by preaching and interpreating (as it were styrred vp & blowen) maketh a greater flame in the harts of the hearers / then when it is red. The reason wherof is not in the word / which is al one red & preached / but in y^• [...] pleaseth the Lorde to worke more effectually wyth the one / then with the other / [Page 160] thereby approuing and authorysing that meanes and wayes / which he especially ordayned for vs to be saued by.

Of infinite examples take one of the Enuche / which although he had bene Actes. 8. at Ierusalem / and returning home / was reading of the Prophet Esay / yet he be­leeued not / vntill Phillip came and preached vnto hym / which I neyther say to disalow reading of the scripture (which is very profitable) nor yet to strengthen the handes of the papistes / which to banyshe the reading of the scriptures / obiect the hardnesse and difficultie of the scriptures / as M. Doctor doth most slaunde­rously & vnbrotherly surmise of the authors of the Admonition: but that it may appeare / what a grose and a palpable error thys is / that the reading of the scrip­ture should be as effectuall as the preaching of it / which God hath appoynted to be the especiall and singulare meanes to saue those / whome he hath appoynted to saluation. And what is thys else but to condemne the wisdome of God in ordey­ning pastors and doctors to bee contynuall functions in the churches: and in so carefully commending them vnto the church of the which notwithstanding there is no vse / if reading be as good as preaching. And although thys be very grose / yet in the. 163. page where he goeth about to shew the profite of reading the scrip­tures in the church / he is yet more absurde. For there he sayeth / that it may bee / that some men be more edifyed by the simple reading of the scriptures / then by sermons. In deede if a man sleepe the sermon tyme / and wake the reading time / or be otherwyse deafe at the one and attentife and heedye at the other / I will not deny / but he may be more edifyed at the simple reading / then at the sermon / vn­lesse it be in thys and such lyke case / I know not how it may be tute that M. Doctor sayth. And in deede it is as much to say that it may be / that the meanes that God hath ordayned to bee the fittest and meetest to call men to saluation / is not the fittest & meetest meanes / which a man should not once so much as thinke of / without trembling and shaking euery ioynte of hym. And now I thinke by thys tyme M. Doctor knoweth hys answere to hys second question / which is whether reading / be not preaching. And if this be not sufficient that I haue said / I would aske gladly of hym / whether all readers be preachers / and whether whosoeuer readeth / preacheth: for if it be true (which he sayeth) that reading is preaching / then that is lykewyse true / that all those which read preach / and so a childe of 4. or 5. yeares olde / is able to preach / because he is able to reade. And least he shoulde seeme to be thus euill aduised without some reason / in the. 159. page he asketh whether (if a man wryte hys sermon / & after reade it in the boke) that readyng be preaching. Heere is hard shift. What if I graunted that it is preaching / yet I deny that therefore he that readeth an other mans sermon prea­cheth: and further I say / that if there be any such / as being able to preach for his knowledge / yet for fault eyther of vtterance or memory can not do it but by rea­dyng / that which he hath written: it is not conuenyent / that he should be a my­nister in the church. For S. Paule doth not require only that the byshop or mi­nister 1. Tim. 3. 2. should be learned in the mysteries of the gospell / & such a one as is able to set downe in wryting in hys study the sense of the scripture / but one which is apt and fitte to teach. And the Prophet Malachie sheweth / that he must haue the Malach. 2. 7. law not in hys papers / but in hys lippes / noting thereby / that it is necessary to haue the gift of vtteraunce / and Esay the Prophet saying that God had geuen Esay. 50. 4. hym the tonge of the learned / doth thereby declare / that it is not suffycient that he be well instructed in the mystery of saluation / but that he haue also the gift of vt­terance. Afterwarde M. Doctor asketh whether S. Paule dyd not preache to the Romaines when he wrote vnto them. No forsooth hys wryting to the Ro­maines was no more preaching / then S. Paules hand or hys penne / which were hys instrumentes to wryte with / were hys tongue / or hys lyghtes / or any other partes / which were hys instrumentes to speake with. And S. Paule hym selfe Rom. 1. 15. [Page 161] wryting to the Romaines / putteth a difference betwene hys wryting & hys prea­ching / when although he wrote vnto them / yet he excuseth hym selfe that he could not come to preach vnto them / saying that he was ready as much as lay in hym to preach vnto them. But sayeth he / was not the reading of Deuteronomie preaching? No more then the reading of Erodus. Heere be good proufes. It is generally denyed / that reading is preaching / and Mayster Doctoure without a­ny proufe / taketh it for graunted / that the reading of Deuteronomie is preaching. All men see / how pityfull reasons these be. And in the. 162. page he alledgeth that in the Actes S. Luke seemeth to meane by reading preaching. But what dea­ling Cap. 15. 21. is thys / vpon a seeming and coniecture / to set down so certenly and vndoub­tedly / that reading is preaching / & then there is no one letter nor sillable that vp­holdeth any such coniecture. For S. Iames sayth that Moyses (meaning the law) red euery Saboth through out euery towne in the sinagogue / was also prea­ched / or had those that preached it / setting forth the order which was vsed in all the churches amongst the people of God: that alwayes when they met vpon the Saboth dayes / they had the scriptures first redde / and then preached of and ex­pounded / which is that the authors of the Admonition doe desire / and therefore complayne for that after reading followeth no preaching / which any indifferent man may easely vnderstand by that that they say: In the olde tyme the worde was preached / now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be red.

But Mayster Doctor heareth with hys left eare / and readeth with hys left eye / as though hys right eye were pulled out / or hys ryght care cut of. For otherwyse the other wordes which they haue touching thys matter / myght easely haue bene expoūded by the argumēt & matter which they handle. Of mynistring of the sacramentes in priuate places & by women / I haue spoken before / there re­mayneth therefore only in thys section / to speake of the deacons / that they ought not to minister the sacramēt. Which although I haue done partly before / & part­ly afterward will do / when I shall shew that it appertayneth not to them to mi­nister the worde / and therefore not the sacramentes (being things the mynistery whereof ought not to be seuered) yet I will in a worde answere those arguments that M. Doctor bryngeth for to proue that they may mynister the sacramentes. Whereof the fyrst is / that Phillip in the. 8. of the Acts baptysed. There is great doubt amongst wryters / which Phillip that was that S. Luke mentioneth in Actes. 15. 21. the eyght chapter of the Acts of the Apostles: But I graūt him to be y^• Phillip / that was the deacon & answeare that he was no deacon then. For the church of Ierusalem whereof he was deacon / being scattered / he could be no more deacon of it / or distribute the money that was collected for the poore of the church. And further I answeare that he was afterwarde an Euangelist / and therefore prea­ched not by vertue of hys deaconshyppe (whose calling is not to preache) but by that he was an Euangelist / whose office put vpon hym a necessitie of preaching. After you say that deacons are not permitted with vs to celebrate the Lordes supper / and why then shoulde they be suffered to mynister baptisme? as if the one sacrament were not as precious as the other. Thys is a myserable rending a sonder of those things / which God hath ioyned together / not only to seperate the mynistery of the sacramentes from the word / but also the mynistery of one sacra­ment from an other.

And what reason is there / that it should be graunted vnto one that can not preach being (as they call hym a mynister) to mynister both the sacramentes / whē as the same is not permitted vnto a deacon (as they call hym) which is able to preach? I doe not speake it for that I woulde haue those which be deacons in deede / that is which haue charge to prouide for the poore of some one congregati­on / eyther preach or mynister the sacraments: but I say that it is agaynst all rea­son / to permit the mynistery of the sacramentes to those which can not preach / & [Page 162] to deny it to those which are able to preach. In the. 118. page vnto the example of Phillip / he addeth S. Stephen / which was one of y^e deacons which he affirmeth to haue preached. But I deny it / for all that long oration which he hath in the 7. of the Actes / is no sermon / but a defence of hym selfe agaynst those accusations / which were layde agaynst hym / as M. Beza doth very learnedly & substancially proue in hys annotations vpon those places of S. Stephens disputations & de­fence. Now to defend hym selfe being accused / is lawfull not for the deacons only / but for any other christian / & we read nothing that Stephen dyd there eyther tou­ching the defence of hys cause / or the sharpe rebuking of the obstinate phariseys and priestes / but that the holy Martyrs of God which were no deacons nor my­nisters / haue done with vs / when they haue bene conuented before their persecu­tors. And where as he sayth that Philip baptised / I haue shewed before by what authoritie he dyd it / that is / not in that he was a deacon / but for that he was an Euangelist. He addeth further out of Iustin Martyr / that the deacons dyd di­stribute the bread & the wyne in the admynistration of the supper. Tullie sayth in a certayne place that it is as great a poynt of wysedome in an aduocate or pleader of causes / to holde backe and to keepe close that which is hurtfull to hys cause / as it is to speake that which is profitable.

M. Doctor obserueth none of these poyntes / for besydes that the thinges which he brought for the defence of the seruice booke / are such / as they haue be­fore appeared: in seeking to defende it / he manyfestly oppugneth it. For before he sayde that the booke of seruice doth not permit deacons to mynister the supper of the Lord / and that by way of alowing of the booke: and here he proueth that the deacons dyd mynister the sacrament of the supper / and that also as a thing which he doth alow of.

But to let that passe / I beseech thee (good Reader) marke / what a myni­string of the supper thys is which Iustin maketh mention of / & note with what conscience M. Doctor handeleth this cause. Iustin saith that after the scriptures are red and preached of / and prayers made / bread and wine & water was brought forth / and that the mynister made prayers and thankes geuing in the hearing of the people (which is that which the Euangelistes call the blessing / and hath bene of later tymes called the consecration) and after that the people were partakers of them / that then thys being done / the deacons dyd cary of that which was left / vnto those which were not present (for that corruption of sending the commu­nion vnto the houses was then in the churche / agaynst which I haue before spo­ken) now if to cary to a priuate house the breade and wyne which was blessed or set a part by prayers / & by obeying the institution of Christ by the mynister / be to mynister the sacrament of the supper / then Serapions boye / of whome men­tion is made by Eusebius / mynistred the sacrament. For Serapion being sicke as I haue before shewed / and sending hys boye to the mynister for the sacrament / receiued the same at the handes of hys boye / for that the mynister being sicke / could not come hym selfe: so by M. Doctors reason / Serapions boye mynistred Lib. 6. l. 43. the sacrament. And a man would not thinke that one that hath bene the Quenes Maiesties publike professor of diuinitie in Cambridge / should not know to distin­guish & put a difference betwene mynistring the sacrament / & helping to distribute the bread and the cup of the sacrament. And if M. Doctor could not learne thys in bokes / yet he might haue eyther sene it / or at least heard tell of it in all the refor­med churches almost / where the Deacons doe assist the mynister in helping of hym to distribute the cuppe / and in some places also the bread / for the quicker and spedyer dispatch of the people / being so many in number / that if they should all re­ceiue the bread and the cuppe at the mynisters hand / they should not make an end in eight houres / which by that assistance may be finished in two / which is tha [...] that M. Caluin sayth. For he sayth the Deacons dyd reach the cup / & maketh no [Page 163] mention of the bread. And if thys be to mynister the sacrament / then they that cut the loafe in peeces / they that fetch the wine for the supper / they that poure it forth from greater vessels into glasses and cuppes / or whosoeuer aydeth any thing in thys action / doe mynister the sacrament: then the which thing there can be no­thing more ridyculous.

In the ende M. Doctor to shut vp thys matter / sayth / that it is the first steppe to the mynistery / and so ioyned of S. Paule in the third chapter and first Epistle to Timothe. But what a reason is thys: to be a Deacon is the first step to the mynistery / therefore the Deacon may preach and mynister the sacraments / when as the contrary rather followeth. For if it be a step to the mynistery / then it is not the mynistery / but differeth from it / and so ought not to doe the things that belong to the mynister. But I deny that it is / or ought to be alwayes a steppe to the mynistery. I knew that it hath bene the vse of long tyme / & I know also that there be very many which interpreate the place of S. Paule / (where he speaking of the Deacons that behaue them selues well / that they get them selues a good bathmon, that is a degree to be a mynister or a byshop.) But I will shew a manifest reason / why it can not so be vnderstanded / which is / for that as the functions of a Deacon or a mynister are dyuers: so are the giftes also wherby those functions are executed likewyse dyuers. And therefore there may be some men for their wisedome and grauitie / discretion and faythfulnesse / and whatsoeuer other giftes are required in hym / that shoulde doe thys office of prouyding for the poore / and to be a good Deacon: which notwithstanding for some impediment in hys tongue / or for want of vtterance shall neuer be able as long as he lyueth / to be a good mynister of the word / and therefore the giftes be­ing dyuers wherewith those offices must be executed / (although it is neyther vn­lawfull / nor vnmeete to make of a Deacon a mynister if he haue giftes for that purpose) yet I deny that S. Paule appoynteth that the Deaconship shoulde be (as it were) the seede or frie of the mynisters: or that he meaneth by those words that the Deaconship is a steppe to the pastorshyp. Which may yet also further appeare / by the phrase of speach which the Apostle vseth. For he doth not say that they that do the office of Deaconship well / shall come to or get a good standing / but he sayth that in so doing they doe gette themselues a good standing / that is they get themselues authoritie & estimation in the church / whereby they may be both the bolder to doe their office / and whereby they may doe it with more frute. Whereas when they liue naughtely / they neyther dare doe oftentimes that which they should doe / nor yet that which they doe well / taketh so good effect / because of the discredite which commeth by their euill behauiour. And so I conclude that M. Doctor hath brought hetherto nothing / to proue why either Deacōs ought / or else haue wont eyther to preach or to mynister the sacramentes.

And albeit M. Doctor be not able to shew it / yet I confes that it hath bene in tymes past permitted vnto them in some churches to baptise / in other some to preach and baptise and sometymes also to mynister the supper: but I say also that thys was a corruption / and vsed at those tymes / when there were many other grose & vntollerable abuses / from the which I doe appeale vnto that which was first / that is the institution of the Apostles / which lymitted and bounded euery function within hys seuerall limites and borders which it ought not to passe.

Vnto the three next sections contayned in the. 94. 95. and a peece of the. 96. pages / touching that which is called the introite / and fragments of the Epistles and Gospels / and the rehersall of the Nicene Crede / I haue declared before the causes of our mislyking / neyther meane I to stand to refute the slaunderous sur­mises which M. D. rayseth of the authors of the Admonition / wherby he would bring thē into the suspitiō of Arrianisme / to whom all those that feare God beare witnes / y^• they are most far from. He him selfe notwithstanding once again in the [Page 164] last of these three sections. 96. page / doth lay the manyfest foundations of that part of Anabaptisme / which standeth in hauing al things common / saying direct­ly agaynst S. Peter / that in the tyme of the Apostles / Christians had proprietie 5. Actes. 4. in nothing. And further geuing great cause of triumph of the one syde to the Ca­tabaptistes / and such as deny the baptisme of yong infants / in matching that with those things which the church may (although not without incommoditie yet without impietie) be without: and of the other syde vnto the papistes / whilest he sayth that we reade not of any women which receiued the Lords supper in the Apostles tyme. For thys is that they alledge to proue theyr vnwritten verityes / when as it is easely answeared both to the papistes and M. Doctor / that for so much as the Apostle doth witnes / that the churches of Corinth consysting of mē and women dyd receyue: that therefore women also dyd receiue / and were per­takers of the Lords table. Thus it is manyfest that M. Doctor only to displease the authors of the Admonition / sticketh not to pleasure iij. notable heretickes / A­nabaptists / Catabaptists / and Papists.

To the next section contayned in the. 96. and a peece of the. 97. page.

MAister Doctor asketh how it is proued that there was any examination of the communicantes. After thys sorte: all thinges necessarye were vsed in the churches of God in y^e Apostles times / but examynation of those whose knowledge of the mistery of the gospell was not knowne or doubted of / was a ne­cessary thing / therfore it was vsed in the churches of God which were in the Apo­stles tyme. Then he sayeth he is sure there is neither commaundement nor exam­ple in all the scripture. In the booke of the Chronicles he might haue red / that 2. Chro. 35. 6. the Leuites were there commaunded to prepare the people vnto the receyuing of the passeouer / in place whereof we haue the Lordes supper. Now examination being a part of the preparation / it followeth that heere is cōmaundement of the ex­amination. And how holdeth thys argument / S. Paule commaundeth that eue­ry man should proue hym selfe / Ergo there is no commaundement that the myni­ster should proue and examine them? so I may say that euery man is a spirituall king to gouerne hym selfe / therefore he may not be gouerned of others. The au­thors 1. Pet. 2. 9. of the Admonition doe not meane that euery one shoulde be examyned as those whose vnderstanding in the gospell is well knowen / or which doe examyne them selues / and so they interpreate them selues in the. 108. page.

To the next section in the 97. 98. and in a peece of the. 99. pages.

I Haue spoken of thys bread before in generall / and if Maister Doctor dyd not disagree wyth hym selfe / we are heere well agreed. For first he sayth it skilleth not what bread we haue / and by and by he sayth / that he wysheth it were com­mon bread / and assigneth a great cause which the booke of seruice lykewise assig­neth / which is to auoyde superstition. And it is certaynely known by experience / that in dyuers places the ignoraunt people y^• haue beene mysled in popery / haue knocked and kneeled vnto it / and helde vp theyr handes / whilest the mynister hath geuen it / not those only which haue receyued it / but those which haue bene in the churche / and looked on. I speake of that whiche I knowe / and haue sene wyth my eyes. An other reason is alleaged by Mayster Bucer / which is / that there being some thicker substance of breade / and such as should moue and stirre vp the tast better / the consyderation of the mynde which is conueyed by the sen­ses / might be also the more effectuall / and so the fruite of receyuing greater. By the way note that eyther Bucers censures vppon the booke of seruice be falsely ascribed vnto hym / or be corrupted / or else were not euen in hys owne tyme heere [Page 165] thought good / substantiall / and suffycient / when there is some cause by Acte of Parliament afterwarde found (I meane in the second booke of kyng Edward) to mislyke wafer cakes / and to chaunge them into common bread. How so euer it be / that circumstance would be well marked / that it was one thyng to talke of a wafer cake in the vse of the supper in kyng Edward dayes before they were iustly abolyshed / & an other thyng now being reuoked after they were remoued.

Besides that / we be called by the example of our sauioure Christe to vse in the supper vsuall and common bread / for what time our sauioure Christ celebra­ted hys supper / there was no other breade to be gotten / but vnleauened breade / there being a straight charge geuen by the lawe / that there should be then no lea­uened bread. And it is not to be doubted / but that if there had bene then when he celebrated hys supper as at other times nothyng but leauened breade / he woulde not haue caused vnleauened bread to haue bene made for that purpose of celebra­ting hys supper. But thys is a grosse ouersyght of M. Doctor / both in thys sec­tion / and that whych goeth before / that he hathe not learned to make a difference betwene that whych is not sincerely done / and that whych is not at all done. For in the former section he triumpheth vpon the admonition / because they conclude / that for as muche as there is no examination / therefore it is not rightly and sin­cerely ministred. For sayeth he / the examination of the communicants / is not of the substance of the sacrament / and in thys section he sayeth / that for as muche as it is not of the substance of the sacrament / whether there be leauened or vnleaue­ned bread / therfore it is not sufficiently proued / that the sacrament is not sincere­ly ministred. But he ought to haue vnderstanded / that if either the matter of the sacrament as bread and wine / or the forme of it / whych is the institution (whych thyngs are only substantiall partes) were wanting / that then there should haue bene no sacrament ministred at all / but they being retayned / and yet other things vsed / whych are not conuenient / the Sacrament is ministred / but not sincerely. For example in the popishe baptisme / there was the substance of baptisme / but there being vsed spyttle and creame / and candels / and such beggerly trumpery / it was not sincerely ministred / therefore it is one thyng to minister sincerely / and an other thyng to minister / so that that whych is of the substance shoulde be wan­ting. But of thys distinction I haue spokē in an other place / wherinto although M. doctor falleth in the next section / and in other places / yet thys shall be an an­swere for all.

The meaning of the Admonition in saying (their God of the altar) is plain enough / that it is vnderstanded of the papists / but that M. Doctor doth set him selfe to draw the authors of it into hatred: and he can not be ignorant / that when a man speaketh of thyngs whych are notoriously knowne / he often vseth (the or that / or their) wythout naming the thyngs whych he speaketh of.

To the next section contained in the. 99. and a peece of the. 100. page.

ALthough it be not of necessity / that we shuld receyue the communion sitting / yet there is the same cause of abolyshing kneeling / that there is of remouing the wafer cake / and if there be danger of superstition in one (as M. Doctor confesseth) why is there not danger in the other? And if there be men that take occasion to fall at the one / and that by superstition / howe commeth it to passe that M. Doctor in the. 180. page / sayeth that neyther gospeller / nor papistes obsti­nate nor simple / can superstitiously offend in this kneelyng / when as the kneeling caryeth a greater shewe of worshyp / and Imprinteth in the mindes of the igno­rant a stronger opinion and a deeper print of adoration / then the syght of a rounde [...]ake. And if kneeling be so void of all fault / as M. Doctor wold make vs beleue / [Page 166] howe came it to passe / that in King Edwardes dayes / there was a protestation added in the boke of prayer / to cleare that gesture from adoration.

An other reason why kneeling should be taken away / is for that sitting a­greeth better wyth the action of the supper / whervnto M. Doctor taketh excep­tion / bothe in thys place / and where he speaketh againe of it / that for so much as thys sacrament is a sacrament of thankes geuing / and thankes geuing a prayer / therfore kneeling to be most fit / as that whych we vse ordinarily when we pray.

But he shuld haue remembred / that that thanks geuing may wel come af­ter we haue receyued the sacrament / and that whilest we receyue the bread and wine of y^e sacramēt / we are not then most fit to speake / they being in our mouths, and during the time we receyue them / our minde is occupied in consydering the inestimable benefite whych the Lorde hathe bestowed vpon vs / and to meditate of the frute whych we receiue thereby / by the Analogie and comparison betwene the bodely nourishment and the spirituall / that by these considerations our minds may be more enflamed and sette on fire / and our mouthes may be filled wyth the praise of God / after we haue receyued. And further if thys be a good reason that therefore it is meete we shoulde kneele at the supper for as muche as we geue thanks / then it foloweth that when so euer we haue supped or dined / it is meete that we should kneele / when as yet we do say grace sitting. And by thys he accu­seth our sauioure Christe and hys Apostles / as those whych did not vse y^e whych was most fitte: for in hys iudgement he sayeth kneeling is the fittest site or posi­tion of the body which can be / and if our sauioure Christ had bene of that iudge­ment / vndoubtedly he wold haue also kneeled / and caused hys Apostles so to do. In the. 181. page vnto the admonition / saying that sitting is most fitte / because it betokeneth rest and accomplishment of the ceremonies in our sauioure Christe / M. doctor sayth it is a papisticall reason / and triumpheth ouer the authors of the admonition / because they allegory / when as notwythstanding the surplice before / crossing / and rings. &c. afterwards / are defended by nothing / but wyth vain alle­gories / whych haue nothing so good groūds as thys hath. But let it be that thys is not so sound a reason (as in deede for my part I wil not defend it / and the au­thors them selues haue corrected it) yet M. doctor might haue dealt easlier with all / then to callit a papisticall reason / which is far from popery / and the reason of two notable learned & zealous men Iohannes Alasco / and of M. Hooper in hys In liturgia ec­cles. per [...]gr. commentary vpon the Prophet Ionas. For the rest whych he hath heere / or in the. 180. and. 181. page / it is either answered before (as that the danger of adora­tion may be taken away) or hath no matter worthy the answearing. I only ad­monish the reader / that sitting at the communion is not holdē to be necessary / but only that I thinke that kneling is very dāgerous / for the causes before aledged.

Vnto the .iij. next sections contained in the .100. and .101. page / I haue spoken already / when as I shewed the generall faultes of the seruice boke / only that is to be noted / that M. doctor stil priuely pincheth or euer he be aware at our sauior Christes action / in the first of these sections / when as he commendeth ra­ther thys forme of speaking / take thou / then that whych our sauior Christ vsed / in saying take yee. And if it be a good argument to proue that therfore we must rather say take thou / then take yee / because the sacrament is an application of the benefites of Christ: then for as much as preaching is the applying of the bene­fites of Christ / it behoueth that the preacher should direct hys admonitions par­ticularly one after an other / vnto all those whych heare hys sermon / whych is a thyng absurde. And therefore besides that it is good to leaue the popish forme / in those thyngs whych we may so conueniently do: it is best to come as neare y^• ma­ner of celebration of the supper / whych our sauyor Christ vsed / as may be.

To the next section contained in the. 102. and a peece of the. 103. page.

IF the place of the. 5. to the Corinths do forbid that we should haue any fami­liarity wyth notorious offenders / it doth much more forbid that they should be receyued to the communion. And therfore papists being such / as which are no­toriously knowne to hold hereticall opinions / ought not to be admitted / much les compelled to the supper. For seeing that our sauioure Christe did institute hys supper amongst hys disciples / and those only whych were as S. Paule speaketh wythin / it is euident / that the papistes being wythout / and foreiners and straun­gers from the church of God / ought not to be receiued / if they woulde offer them selues: and that minister that shall geue the supper of the Lord to hym whych is knowne to be a papist / and whych hath neuer made any cleare renouncing of po­pery with which he hath ben defiled / doth prophane the table of the Lord / & doth geue the meat that is prepared for the children / to dogges / and he bryngeth into the pasture whych is prouided for the sheepe / swine and vncleane beasts / contra­ry to the faith and trust that ought to be in a stewarde of the Lordes house / as he is. For albeit that I doubt not / but many of those whych are now papists / per­taine to the election of God / whych God also in hys good time will call to the knowledge of hys truthe: yet notwythstanding they ought to be vnto the mini­ster and vnto the church touching the ministring of the sacramentes / as straun­gers and as vncleane beastes. And as for the papists / howsoeuer they receiue it / whether as their popish breaden God (as some doe) or as common and ordinary bread (as other some do) or as a thing they know not what (as some other) they do nothing els but eat and drinke their owne condemnation / the waight wherof they shall one day assuredly feele / vnles they do repeat them of such horrible pro­phaning of the Lords most holy mysteries. And if thys be to gratify the papists / to shewe that they ought not to be compelled to receiue the supper of the Lorde / as long as they continue in their popery: I am well content to shewe them thys. pleasure / so that bothe they and you forget not / what I haue before sayd / that the magistrate ought to compell them to heare the worde of God / and if they profite not / nor wyth sufficient teaching correcte not them selues / that then they shoulde be punyshed. And if you doe aske whye they shoulde be more compelled vnto the sermons / then vnto the supper of the Lorde / or why they are not as well to be ad­mitted vnto the one / as vnto the other: you see the like done in the sacrament of baptisme / whych may not be ministred vnto all to whome the word may be prea­ched. The reason also is at hand / for the preaching of the worde of God to the pa­pistes / is an offer of the grace of God / whych may be made to those whych are strangers from God / but the ministring of the holy sacraments vnto them / is a declaration and seale of Gods fauor & reconciliation with them / and a plain prea­ching / partly that they be washed already from their sinnes / partly that they are of the houshold of God / and such as the Lord will feede to eternail lyfe / whych is not lawful to be don to those whych are not of the houshold of fayth. And therfore. I conclude / that the compelling of papists vnto the communion / and the dismis­sing and letting of them go / whē as they be to be punyshed for their stubbernes in popery (wyth thys condition if they will receiue the communion) is very vnlawful / when as although they wold receyue it / yet they ought to be kept back / vntil such time / as by their religious and gospellike behauior / they haue purged them­selues [Page 188] of that suspition of popery / whych their former life and conuersation hath caused to be conceyued. As for the fee that M. doctor sayeth we be worthy of / for shewing our selues (as he sayth) so good patrones of the papistes / he hath geuen vs well to vnderstande / what it should be if he were the paymaister: but as we serue the Lord in thys worke / so we loke for rewarde at hys hande / not fearing but that the Lord will in the ende geue such blessing vnto our labors / as we shal not neede greatly to feare at the hands of those whych God hath placed in autho­rity / thereward whych you do so often call for.

Vnto that whych is contained in the two next sections in the. 103. and a peece of the. 104. pages I haue answeared before partly particularly: and partly when I noted the generall faults of the seruice boke / especially seeing that M. Doctor wil not defend the piping / and organes / nor no other singing then is vsed in the reformed churches: whych is in the singing of two Psalmes / one in the beginning / and an other in the ending / in a plaine tune / easye bothe to be sung of those whych haue no arte in singing / and vnderstanded of those whych because they can not read / can not sing wyth the rest of the churche.

The reply vnto the next section whych is contained in the 106. 107. and a peece of the. 108. pages.

FOr that whych is in the. 105. page / and concerneth the surplice / I haue an­sweared before. There foloweth the interrogatories or demaundes ministred vnto the infants in baptisme / for the profe wherof is brought / in the first place Dionisius Areopagita, a worthy couer for such a cup. For to let pas / that M. doc­tor alledgeth the celestiall hierarchie / in stead that he should haue cited the ecclesi­asticall hierarchie / thys testimony being founde in the one / and not in the other: dare M. Doctor be so bold / as to delude the worlde in so great light / wyth suche bables as thys? doth he thinke that the author of these bokes of hierarchies / be­ing so full of subtile speculations / vain and idle fansies / wicked blasphemies / ma­king one order of popes / an other of prelates / the third of sacrificers / and then of monkes (some of whych orders came not many hundreth yeares after that time / wherin Denis the Arcopagite liued) which mentioneth many folish ceremonies and corruptions (that no other author neyther Greeke nor Latine stories / nor others diuers hundreth yeares after dothe make any mention of besydes hym) I say doth he thynke to abuse men / and to geue them such drosse in steade of siluer / such chaffe in stead of corne / as to make vs beleue that he that wrote these bokes of hierarchie / was s. Paules scholer? for the better blasing of this Denis armes / I will send the (reader) vnto that whych Erasmus wryteth of thys Denis of M. Doctors / vpon the. 17. of the Actes of the Apostles / where he also sheweth togither wyth hys owne iudgement / the iudgement of Laurentius Valla. I am 1. Lib. 20. cap. not ignorant what Nicephorus a fabulous historiographer / and of no credite in such matters (and in those matters especially / whych myght lyke or mislike those times wherin he wrote) sayeth of S. Paules communicating wyth Denis / and another / concerning the heauenly and Ecclesiasticall hierarchie. But because I thynke M. Doctor be now ashamed of hys Denis / I wil folow it no further.

By thys it may appeare / that M. Doctors Dionisius being a counterfet and startvp / these interrogatories and demaūds ministred vnto the infants / haue not so many gray haires as he would make vs beleue / although in dede the que­stion lyeth not in y^e antiquitie. As for reasons he hath none / but only as one which hath learned hys aequipollences very euil / he maketh it all one to say (I renoūce) and to say (I will teach an other to renounce.) As for S. Augustines place (al­though I can not alow hys reason that he maketh / nor the proportion that is be­twene the sacrament of the body and bloud of our sauioure Christe / and hys body [Page 169] and bloud it selfe of one side / and betwene the sacrament of baptisme / and faith of the other side: saying that as the sacrament of the body of Christ after a sort is the body / so the baptisme of the sacrament of faith / is after a sort faith / whereas he should haue sayd / that as the supper being the sacrament of y^• body of Christe / is after a sort the body of Christ: so baptisme being a sacrament of the bloud of Christ / is after a sort the bloud of Christ / for faith is not the subiect of baptisme / as the body and bloud of Christ is the matter of the supper). Yet I say that S. Augustine hath no one word to approue thys abuse of answearing in the childes name / & in hys person / but goeth about to establish an other abuse / whych was / that it was lawfull for those that presented the childe / to say that it beleeued. So that it is lyke that the minyster dyd aske those whych presented the infant / whe­ther they thought that it was faithfull / and dyd beleeue / and those whych presen­ted it / sayd it was so: wherevpon thys question rose / whether it was lawfull to say that the childe beleeued.

In the. 191. and. 192. pages / he speaketh of thys agayne / but he doth no­thing els but repeat in both places / that whych is here / only he sayth / that it is a mocking of God to vse the place of the Galathians (God is not mocked) against Galath. [...]. 7. thys abuse / and hys reason is / because s. Paule speaketh there agaynst those that by fained excuses / seeke to defraud the pastor of hys lyuing / as who should say s. Paule dyd not conclude that particulare conclusion (thou shalt not by friuolous excuses defraud the minister) wyth thys general saying (God is not mocked) for hys reason is / God is not mocked at all / or in any matter / therfore he is not moc­ked in thys. Or as who should say / because our sauioure Christ saying that it is not lawfull to seperate that which God hath ioyned / speaking of diuorce: it is not lawfull to vse thys sentence / being a generall rule / in other thyngs / when as we Math. 19. 6. know it is as well and properly vsed agaynst the papists / whych seuer the cup from the breade / as agaynst the Iewes whych put away their wiues for euery small and trifeling cause. And as for thys questioning / it can be little better ter­med / then a very trifeling and toying. For first of all / children haue not / nor can not haue any fayth / hauing no vnderstanding of the word of God / I will not deny / but children haue the spirite of God / whych worketh in them after a won­derful fashion. But I deny that they can haue faith which cometh by hearing / & vnderstandyng whych is not in them. Secondarily / if children could haue fayth / yet they that present the childe / can not precisely tell / whether that particulare chylde hath fayth or no / and therfore can not so absolutely answere that it belee­ueth? Because it is comprehended in the couenaunt / and is the chylde of fayth­full parents / or at the least of one of the parents / there is warrant vnto the pre­senters to offer it vnto baptisme / and to the minister for to baptise it. And further we haue to thinke charitably / and to hope / that it is one of the church. But it can be no more precisely sayd that it hath fayth / thē it may be sayd precisely elected (for in dede it is all one to say that it is elect / and to say it beleueth) and this I thinke the authors of the admonition do meane / when they say that they require a pro­mise of the Godfather / whych is not in them to performe. Thirdly / if bothe those thyngs were true / that is / that infantes had fayth / and that it myght be precisely sayd y^• it beleeueth / yet ought not the minister demaund thys of the childe / whom he knoweth can not answer hym / nor those that answer for the childe ought to de­maund to be baptised / when they neyther meane / nor may be (being already bap­tised. But it is meete / that all thyngs should be done grauely / simply / and plain­ly in the church. And so (if those other two thyngs were lawfull) it ought to be done / as seemeth to haue bene done in S. Augustines times / when the minister asked those that presented the infant / and not the infant / whether it were fayth­full / and those whych presented / answeared in their owne persons / and not in the childes / that it was faythfull.

For Godfathers there is no controuersy betwene the admonition / and M. doctors boke / whych appeareth not only in their corrections / but plainly in the 188. page / where they declare that they rather condemne the abuse / whylest it is vrged more then greater matters / and whych are in deede necessary / thys being a thyng arbitrarie / and left to the discretion of the church / and whilest there is so euil choyse for the moste parte of Godfathers / whych is expressedly mentioned of the admonition / and whilest it is vsed almost for nothyng else / but as a meane for one frende to gratify an other / wythout hauing any regarde to the solempne pro­myse made before God and the congregation / of seeing the childe broughte vp in the nurture and feare of the Lord. For the thyng it selfe / consydering that it is so generally receyued of all the churches / they do not mislike of it.

As for fonts I haue spoken of before / both particularly & in general. But wheras M. doctor sayeth in the apostles times they baptised in no basins but in riuers & common waters / I wold know whether there was a riuer or common water in Cornelius and in the iaylors houses / where Paul and Peter baptised.

To proue crossing in baptisme / M. Bucers authority is brought. I haue sayd before / what iniury it is to leaue the publyke workes of Bucer / and to flye vnto the Apochryphas, wherin also they might driue vs to vse the like / and to set downe lykewise hys wordes whych we finde in hys priuate letters. But it is first of all to be obserued of the reader / howe & wyth what name those notes are called / whych are cited of M. Doctor for the defence of these corruptions. They are called by M. Doctors owne confession (censures) which word signifyeth and implyeth / as muche as corrections and controlments of the booke of seruice / and therefore we may take thys for a generall rule throughout the whole boke of ser­uice / that in whatsoeuer thyngs in controuersy M. Doctor doth not bring Bu­cers authority to confirme them / that those thyngs Bucer mislyked of: as for ex­ample in priuate baptisme / and communions ministred in houses / for interroga­tories ministred vnto infants / & such lyke / for so much as they are not confirmed here by M. Bucers iudgemēt / it may be thought / that he mislyked of them / and no doubt if eyther M. Bucers notes had not eyther condemned or mislyked of diuers thyngs in the seruice boke: we should haue had the notes printed and set forthe to the full / thys I thought in a word to admonishe the reader of.

Vnto M. Bucers authority / I could heere opposemen of as great autho­rity / yea the authoritye of all the reformed churches / whych shall also be done af­terward. And if there were nothyng to oppose but the worde of God / whych will haue the sacraments ministred simply / and in that sincerity that they be left vnto vs / it is enoughe to make all men to couer their faces / and to be ashamed / if that whych they shall speake / be not agreeable to that simplicity. The reasons whych Bucer bryngeth I will answer / whych in thys matter of crossing are two. First that it is auncient / and so it is in deede. For Tertullian maketh mention of thys Lib. de resur­rect. carnis. vsage / and if thys be sufficient to proue the goodnesse of it / then there is no cause why we should mislyke of the other superstitions and corruptious whych were likewyse vsed in those tunes. For the same Tertullian sheweth / that they vsed Lib. de corona militis. also at baptisme to taste of miike and hony / and not to washe all the weeke after they had ministred baptisme.

But heere I will note the cause whervpon I suppose thys vse of crossing came vp in the primitiue church / wherby shal appeare / how there is no cause now why it shuld be retained / if there were any why it should be vsed in the primitiue church. It is knowne to all that haue red the Ecclesiastical stories / that the hea­then dyd obiect to the Christians in times past in reproche / that the God whych they beleued of / was hanged vpon a crosse. And they thought good to testify that they were not ashamed therefore of the same God / by the often vsing of the signe of the crosse / whych carefulnes and good minde to keepe amongst them an open [Page 171] profession of Christe crucifyed / althoughe it be to be commended: yet is not thys meanes so: for they myght otherwyse haue kept it / and wyth les daunger / then by thys vse of crossing. And if they thought y^e vse of the crosse to be the best meanes / yet they should not haue bene so bolde / as to haue brought it into the holy sacra­ment of baptisme / and so mingle the ceremonies and inuentions of men / wyth the sacraments & institution of God. And as it was brought in vpon no good groūd / so the Lord left a marke of hys cursse of it / and wherby it myght be perceyued to come out of the forge of mannes braine / in that it began forthwyth / while it was yet in the swadling clouts to be superstitiously abused. For it appeareth by Ter­tullian also in the same booke De corona militis, that the christians had such a su­perstition in it / that they would doe nothyng / nor take nothyng in hande / vnles they had crossed them when they went out / when they came in / when they sate or lay downe / and when they rose / and as superstition is alwayes strengthened / and spreadeth it selfe wyth the time / so it came from crossing of men / vnto crossing of euery thyng that they vsed. Whervpon Chrysostome commēdeth the crossing Vpon the. 1. of Tim. 4. chap. of the cup before a man drynke / and of the meate before it was eaten. But if it were graunted that vpon thys consyderation whych I haue before mentioned / the auncient christians dyd well: yet it foloweth not / that we should so doe. For we lyue not amongst those nations whych do cast vs in the teethe / or reproche vs wyth the crosse of Christe. If we liued amongst the Turkes / it were another matter / and then there myght peraduenture some question be / whether we shuld do as they dyd / and hauyng the same sore / vse the same playster: but now we liue among the papistes / that do not contemne the crosse of Christ / but whych esteme more of the wodden crosse / then of the true crosse of Christ (whych is hys suffe­rings) we ought now do cleane contrarywise to the olde christians / and abolyshe all vse of these crosses / for contrary dyseases must haue contrary remedyes. If therfore the olde christians to delyuer the crosse of Christ from contempt / dyd of­ten vse the crosse: the christians now to take away the superstitious estimation of it / ought to take away the vse of it. Concerning the other reason of the profitable signification of the crosse / I haue shewed / that that maketh the thyng a greate deale worse / and bryngeth in a newe worde into the church / wheras there ought to be no Doctor heard in the church / but only our sauioure Christ. For if these significations be good / then the papists haue to answer vs / that their ceremonies be not dumbe / whych haue as lykely and as gloryous significations as these are / and so in deede they say / that their ceremonyes are not dumbe ceremonyes / for so much as they signify so good thyngs. But although it be the worde of God that we should not be ashamed of the crosse of Christe / yet is it not the word of God / that we should be kept in remembrance and obseruation of y^e by two lines drawn a crosse one ouer an other in the childes forehead / but a fond toy and idle deuise of mannes brayne.

In the. 192. page / vnto the admonition obiecting that by thys signification it is made a sacrament / M. Doctor answeareth that euery ceremony whych be­tokeneth some thyng is not a sacrament: I would knowe what maketh a sacra­ment if a doctrine annexed vnto an outwarde signe dothe not make a sacrament. And I am sure / there was no outward signe neyther in the olde testament nor in the newe / whych hath a doctrine ioyned wyth it / whych is not a sacrament. For if he will take the nature of the sacrament so straightly as Augustine dothe / and that there be no Sacramentes / but when as to the clement there commeth the worde / the circumcision can be no sacrament. Besydes that / seeing that mayster Doctor hath condemned the allegorie and signifycation of sytting at the Lordes supper / saying that it is Papisticall / I maruell what priuiledge he hath or speci­all lycence / that he may allow that in hym selfe and in hys owne assertiōs / whych he sayeth is vnlawfull and papisticall in others / especially seeing the allegorye of [Page 172] the sitting was neuer vsed by the Papistes / but thys of crossing is. And if thys licence of allegories be alowed / I see not why Oyle may not be brought into the sacrament / as well as crossing / bothe because it hath bene a sacrament of God be­fore / and for that the signification therof (betokening the gifts of the holy ghost / and shadowing out the power & efficacie of those gyfts) caryeth as great a shew of wisedome and christian instruction / as doth the crossing. And to conclude / I see no cause / why some crosses shuld be vnlawfull / and other some commendable: and why it should be a monument of popery in wode and metal / and yet a christi­stian badge in the forehead of a man: why we should not lyke of it in streates and hygh wayes / & yet allow of it in the church. And because I would haue all those thyngs together / that touche thys matter of baptisme / I come to that whych he hath in the next section / & in the. 111. page / where after hys old manner he wran­gleth and quarelleth. For although the Admonition speaketh so plainly and so clearely / that (as Hesiode sayth) it myght areskein to momo satisfy Momus / yet M. doctor goeth about there to bryng it in suspition of Anabaptisme / because al­lowing in playne words / the baptisme of infants / they adde that if the parties be of discretion and yeres / them selues in their owne parsons should demaund to be baptised. For sayeth he in this church / they tary not for baptisme so long. But is there no case or may there not be / when they that be of age may be baptised? It may be there are Iewes in England / whych vnderstanding their blindnes / and confessing their synne / may desire to be baptised / and there be diuers Mores in noble mennes and gentle mennes houses / whych are sometimes brought to the knowledge of Christ / wherby there is some vse and practise of thys case.

After that M. Doctor hath cast hym selfe in derision / at the feete of the au­thors of the Admonition / and desired to be taught of them whom he hath so con­temptuously condemned as vnlearned / he dothe by and by raise vp hym selfe into hys chaire / and there sitteth Doctorally / apposing the authors of the admonition / as if they were hys schollers: and vpon occasion of the sound fayth and good be­hauyor of the parents of the infante mentioned by the admonition / asketh first of all / what if the infant be the childe of a dronkard? what if he be of a harlot? shall not (sayeth he) the infant be baptised? If it were not that M. doctor in asking these questions dothe also answer them / and answeareth them farre otherwyse then the truthe doeth suffer / I would not be drawne from the causes whych we haue in hand by these roging questions / nowe I can not leaue them vnanswea­red / because I see that mayster Doctor dothe make of the holy Sacrament of baptisme (whych is an entry into the house of God / and whereby only the family of God must enter) a common passage wherby he will haue cleane and vncleane / holy and prophane / as well those that are wythout the couenaunt as those that be wythin it / to passe by: and so maketh the church no housholde / but an Iune to re­ceyue whosoeuer commeth. I will answere therfore almost in as many words / as the questions be asked. If one of the parents be neyther drunkarde nor adul­terer / the chylde is holy by vertue of the couenaunt / for one of the parents sakes. If they be bothe / and yet not obstinate in their synne / whereby the church hathe not proceeded to Excommunication / (them selues being yet of the church) their chylde can not / nor ought not to be refused. To the second question / wherein he asketh what if the childe be of Papistes or Heretikes. If bothe be Papistes / or condenmed heretikes / (if so be I may distinguishe papistes from heretikes) and cutte of from the church / then their children can not be receyued / because they are not in the couenaunt: if eyther of them be faithfull / I haue answeared before that they ought to be receyued. To the other question wherin he asketh / what if they erre in some poynts of matters of faithe. If it be but an error / and be not in those poynts whych case the foundations of fayth / because they still notwythstandyng their error / are to be counted amongst the faythfull / their children pertaine vnto [Page 173] the promise / and therfore to the sacrament of the promise.

And in the. 193. page he asketh / what if the parentes of the chylde bee vn­knowne. If they be / yet if godly men will present it to baptisme / with promise of seeing it brought vp in the feare of the Lorde / for so muche as it is founde in a place where the church is / and therefore by lykelyhoode to appertayne vnto some that was of the church: I thinke it may be baptysed / if the church thinke it good in thys last case.

Then hee goeth forth in the. 111. page to proue that the children of those which he hath reckned / may be baptysed / and demaundeth whether a wicked fa­ther may haue a good child / a papist or heretike father a beleuing child? yes verely may they. So may haue and hath the Turke and the Iewe / and yet theyr chil­dren are not to be receyued / vnlesse their fayth doe first appeare by confession. But you say the papist and hereticke be baptised / and so are not the Iewes and Turkes. Their baptisme (they being cut of from the church) maketh them as much straungers vnto it / as was Ismael and Esau: which albeit they were circumcysed / yet being cast out of the church / they were no more to be accompted to be of the body of Gods people / then those whiche neuer were in the church. Now you see the poyson (as you terme it) which lyeth hyd vnder these wordes / and if it be as you say poyson / let vs haue some of your triacle. In all the rest of the section / there is nothing but that which he spake of before / only the eldershyp is named / which commeth to be entreated of in the next section.

The reply vnto the three next sections concerning the senyors / begin­ning in the latter end of the. 112. page / and holding on vntill the beginning of the. 118. page.

AS though M. Doctor were at vtter defiance with all good order / & Me­thode of wryting / that which was geuen hym orderly by the Admonition / he hath turned vpsyde downe. For where the Admonition speaketh first of the elders / then of that which is annexed vnto them / which is the dyscipline (whereof excommunication is a part) consydering that the subiect is in nature before that which is annexed vnto it / M. Doctor hath turned it cleane contrary / and first speaketh of excommunication / and then of the elders. I will therefore that the reader may the easelyer vnderstand that which is sayde / follow the order of the Admonition / and first of all speake of the elders or senyors which ought to be in the church. And in speaking of them / I must call to remembrance that diuision which I made mention on before / that is: Of those which haue care and which gouerne the whole congregation / some there be which do both teache the word and gouerne also: some which doe not teach / but only gouerne / and be ayders in the gouernment / vnto those which doe teache. Thys dyuision is most manifestly set forth in the Epistle vnto Timothe: where he sayeth the elders 1. Tim. 5. 17. which rule well / are worthy of double honor / and especially those which labor in the word and doctryne / where he maketh by playne and expresse words two sorts of elders / the one which doth both gouerne and teach: the other which gouerneth only. These therefore are the senyors which are meant / whose office is in hel­ping the pastor or byshop / in the gouernement of that particulare church / where they be placed pastors and elders. Now that it is knowne what these senyors be / in entreating of them I am content to answere M. Doctor three requestes which he maketh in the. 125. page / where he desireth that one would do so much for hym / as first to shew that these senyors were in euery congregation: seconda­rely he will haue it proued that thys regiment is perpetual / and not to be altered: last of all he desireth to know / whether these senyors were lay men / and not ra­ther mynisters of the word and byshops. Thys last is a fond request / and suche [Page 174] as is alredy answeared / but he must be followed. For the first therefore / which is / that there were segnyors in euery congregation / although M. Doctor in the 114. page / and in the. 132. page / constrayned / by Ambose authoritie / confesseth it in playne wordes / yet because he requireth it to be shewed / and maketh a iest at those places which are alledged out of the scripture to proue it / some thing muste be spoken thereof. The first place is in the Actes / whych is / that Paule & Bar­nabas dyd appoynte by election / elders in euerie congregation / but it is not lyke they dyd appoynt dyuers ministers or bishops / which preached in euery congre­gation / which were not to be had for suche a number of congregations as were Actes. 14. 23. then to bee preached vnto: therefore in euery congregation there were besides those that preached / other elders which dyd only in gouernment assist the pastors which preached. And what should we follow comectures heere / when S. Paule doth in the place before alledged declare / what these elders are. But M. Doctor 1. Tim. 5. 17. sayeth that there is no mention made of the office of such an elder: therefore that place maketh nothing to proue that there shoulde be such elders in euery congre­gation. So M. Doctor wryte / he careth not what he write. Belike he thinketh the credite of hys degree of Doctorshyp / will geue waight to that which is light / and pithe to that which is froth / or else he would neuer answere thus. For then I will if thys be a good reason say / that for so much as S. Luke doth not in that Actes. 14. 17. place describe the office of the pastor or byshoppe which preacheth the woorde / therefore that place proueth not that in euery congregation there should be a by­shop or a pastor. Besides that / M. Doctor taketh vp the authors of the Admo­nition for reasoning negatiuely of the testimony of all the scriptures / and yet hee reasoneth negatiuely of one only sentence in the scripture. For he would conclude that for so much as there is no duetie of a senyor described in that place / therefore there is no duety at all / and consequently no senyor.

Afterwardes he sayeth / that for so much as thys place hath bene vsed to proue a pastor or byshop in euery church / therfore it can not be vsed to proue these elders / so that (sayeth he) there must needes be eyther a contradiction or else a fal­sification. The place is rightly alledged for both the one and the other / and yet neyther contradiction to them selues / nor falsification of the place: but only a must before M. Doctors eyes / which will not let hym see a playne and euident truth / which is / that the word (elder) is generall / and comprehendeth both those elders which teach and gouerne / and those which gouerne only / as hath bene shewed out of S. Paule. And whereas M. Doctor sayeth / that the place of the Co­rinthes 2. Cor. 12. may bee vnderstanded of cyuill magistrates / of preaching mynisters / of gouernoures of the whole churche / and not of euery particulare churche / and fy­nally any thing / rather then that wherof it is in deede vnderstanded: I say first that he styll stumbleth at one stone / which is / that he can not put a difference be­twene the church and common wealth: and so betwene the church officers which he there speaketh of / and the officers of the common wealth / those which are ec­clesiasticall: and those which are cyuill. Then that he meaneth not the mynister which proacheth / it may appeare / for that he had noted them before in the worde (teachers) and last of all he can not meane gouernoure of the whole church / on­les he shoulde meane a Pope / and if he will say he meaneth an Archbyshop which gouerneth a whole prouince / besides that it is a bolde speach without all war­rant / I haue shewed before that the word of God alloweth of no such office / and therefore it remayneth that it must be vnderstanded of thys office of Elders. The same answere may be made vnto that which he sayeth of the place to the Ro­maines / where speaking of the offyces of the church / after that hee had set forth Cap. 12. the office of the pastor / and of the doctor / he addeth those other two offices of the Churche / whereof one was occupyed in the gouernement only / the other in prouyding for the poore / and helping the sicke. And if besides the manifest words [Page 175] of the Apostle in both these places / I shoulde adde the sentences of the wryters vpon those places / as M. Caluin / M. Beza / M. Martyr / M. Bucer. &c. It should easely appeare / what iust cause M. Doctor hath to say / that it is to daily with the scriptures / and to make them a nose of waxe / in alledging of these to proue the elders / that all men might vnderstand / what terrible outcryes he ma­keth / as in thys place / so almost in all other / when there is cause / that he shoulde lay hys hand vpon hys mouth.

Thys I am compelled to wryte / not so much to proue that there were seny­ors in euery church (which is a thing confessed) as to redeame those places from M. Doctors false and corrupt interpretations. And as for the proufe of elders in euery congregation / besydes hys confession / I neede haue no more but hys owne reason: For he sayeth that the office of these elders in euery church / was in that tyme wherein there were no christian magistrates / and when there was persecution / but in the Apostles tymes there was both persecution / and no chri­stian magistrates / therefore in theyr tyme the office of these elders was in euery congregation. I come therefore to the second poynt wherein the question especi­ally lyeth / which is / whether thys function be perpetuall / and ought to remayne alwayes in the churche. And it is to be obserued by the way / that where as there are dyuers sortes of aduersaryes to thys disciplyne of the church / Maister Doc­tor is amongst the worst. For there be that saye / that thys order may be vsed or not vsed now / at the lybertie of the churches: But M. Doctor sayeth that thys order is not for these tymes / but only for those tymes when there were no chri­stian magistrates / and so doth flatly pinch at those churches which hauing chri­stian magistrates / yet notwithstanding retayne thys order still.

And to the ende that the vanitie of thys distinction / which is / that there oughte to bee senyors or auncientes in the tymes of persecution / and not of peace: vnder tyrantes and not vnder christian magistrates may appeare: the cause why these senyors or auncientes were appoynted in the church / is to bee consydered / which must needes be graunted to bee / for that the pastor not being able to ouersee all hym selfe / and to haue hys eyes in euery corner of the church / and places where the churches aboade / might be helped of the auncientes. Wher­in the wonderfull loue of God towards hys church doth manifestly appeare / that for the greater assurance of the saluation of hys / dyd not content hym selfe to ap­poynt one only ouerseer of euery church / but many ouer euery church.

And therefore seeing that the pastor is now in the tyme of peace / and vnder a christian magistrate not able to ouersee all hym selfe / nor hys eyes can not bee in euery place of the paryshe present to beholde the behauiour of the people / it fol­loweth that as well now as in the tyme of persecution / as well vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant / the office of an auncient or seignior is required. Onles you will say that God hath lesse care of hys church in the time of peace and vn­der a godly magistrate / then he hath in the tyme of persecution / and vnder a ty­rant. In deede if so bee the auncientes in the tyme of persecution and vnder a ty­rant / had medled with any office of a magistrate / or had supplyed the roume of a godly magistrate / in handling of any of those things which belonged vnto hym / then there had bene some cause why a godly magistrate being in the church / the office of the senior / or at least so much as he exercised of the office of a magistrate / shuld haue ceased.

But when as the auncient neither dyd / nor by any meanes might meddle with those things which belonged vnto a magistrate / no more vnder a tyrant thē vnder a godly magistrate / there is no reason why the magistrate entring into the church / the elder shuld be therfore thrust out. For the elders office was to admo­nish seuerally / those that dyd amisse / to comfort those which he saw weake & sha­king / and to haue neede of comfort / to assist the pastor in ecclesiasticall censures of [Page 176] reprehensions / sharper or milder as the faultes required / also to assist in the suspē ­sions from the supper of the Lord vntill some triall were had of the repentance of that party which had confessed hym selfe to haue offended / or else if he remayned stubburne / to assist hym in the excommunicatiō. These were those things / which the elders dyd / which forsomuch as they may doe as well vnder a christian magi­strate / as vnder a tyrant / as well in the tyme of peace as in the tyme of persecu­tion / it followeth that as touching the office of elders / there is no distinction in the tymes of peace and persecution / of a christian prince and of a tyrant. But I will yet come nearer. That without the which / the principal offices of charitie can not be excercised / is necessary and alwayes to be kept in the church. But the office of auncients & elders are such as with out which the principal offices of charity can not be exercised / therefore it followeth that thys office is necessary. That the prin­cipall offices of charity can not be exercised without thys order of auncientes / it may appeare for that he which hath faulted / and amendeth not after he be admo­nyshed once priuately / and then before one wytnes or two / can not further be pro­ceeded agaynst / according to the commaundement of our sauior Christ / onlesse there be in the church / auncients and elders / therefore thys principall office of charitie / which tendeth to the amendment of hym which hath not profited by those two former admonitions / can not be exercised without them. For it is cōmaunded of our sauiour Christ / that in such a case when a brother doth not profite by these Math. 18. 15. two warnings / it should be tolde the church. Now I would aske who be meant by the church heere / if he say by the church are meant all the people / then I will aske how a man can conueniently complayne to all the whole congregation / or how can the whole congregation conueniently meete to decide of thys matter. I doe not deny / but the people haue an interest in the excommunication / as shall be noted heereafter / but the matter is not so farre come / for hee must first refuse to obey the admonition of the church / or euer they can proceede so farre. Well / if it be not the people that be meant by the church / who is it? I heare M. Doctor say it is the pastor / but if he will say so / and speake so straungely / he must warrant it wyth some other places of scripture where the church is taken for one / which is as much to say as one man is many / one member is a body / one alone is a compa­ny. And besydes thys strangenes of speach / it is cleane contrary to the meaning of our sauiour Christ / and destroyeth the soueraignitie of the medycine which our sauiour Christ prepared for such a festered sore / as would neyther be healed with priuate admonition / neyther with admonition before one or two witnesses. For as the fault groweth / so our sauiour Christ woulde haue the number of those be­fore whome he shoulde be checked and rebuked / lykewise grow. Therefore from a priuate admonition he ryseth vnto the admonition before two or three / & from them to the church / which if we should say it is but one / then to a daungerouser wound should be layde an easier plaister: and therefore our sauiour doth not ryse from two to one / (for that were not to ryse but to fall / nor to proceede but to goe backward (but to many. Seeing then that the church heere is neyther the whole congregation / nor the pastor alone / it followeth that by the church here he meaneth the pastor / with the auncients or elders. Or else whome can he meane? And as for thys manner of speach / wherein by the church is vnderstanded the cheefe go­uernours and elders of the church / it is oftentymes vsed in the olde Testament / from the which our sauiour borowed thys maner of speaking / as in Exodus it is sayde. That Moses wrought hys myracles before the people / when mention is 4. chap. 29. 30. made before / only of the elders of the people / whome Moses had called together. And most manifestly in * Iosue / where it is sayde / that he that kylled a man at 20. chap. 4. 6. vnwares / shall returne vnto the citie vntill he stand before the congregration to be iudged. Where by the congregation / he meaneth the gouernoures of the con­gregation / for it dyd not appertayne to all to iudge of thys case. Lykewyse in the [Page 177] Chronicles / and dyuers other places. And therefore I conclude that forsomuch 1. li. 13. cap. 2. 4. as those be necessary and perpetuall which are spoken of in those wordes (tell the Church) and that vnder those wordes are comprehended the elders or aunci­entes / that the elders and auncientes be necessary and perpetuall officers in the church. Furthermore S. Paule hauing entreated throughout the whole first Epistle to Timothe / of the orders which ought to be in the church of God / and of y^e gouernment / as hym selfe wytnesseth in y^e third chapter of that Epistle (whē he sayeth he wrote that Epistle to teach Timothe how he shoulde behaue hym selfe in the house of God) and hauing set forth both byshoppe / and elder / and dea­cons / as mynisters and officers of the church / in the shutting vp of hys Epistle he (for the obseruation of all the orders of that Epistle) adiureth Timothe / and 1. Tim. 6. 13. 14. with the inuocation of the name of God strayghtly chargeth hym / to obserue those thinges which hee had prescribed in that Epistle. I charge thee (sayeth hee) before God which quickeneth all things / and before Iesus Christ which wit­nessed vnder Pontius Pilate a good profession that thou keepe thys commaun­dement without spot or blemishe / vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Christ. The wayght of which sentence for the obseruing of those things which are men­tioned in thys Epistle / that it may be the better vnderstanded / I will note the wordes seuerally.

First therefore it is to be noted that he sayeth (I denounce or I charge.) He doth not say (I exhorte or giue counsell) leauing it to the lyberty of Timothe.

Secondarely it is to be noted / that he calleth the whole Epistle a commaū ­dement / and therefore it is no permission / so that it may be lawfull for the chur­ches to leaue it / or to keepe it.

Thirdly / when he maketh mention of the lyuing God / and of Christ / which witnessed a good profession vnder Pontius Pilate / he sheweth that the thinges contayned in thys Epistle are such / as for the mayntenaunce thereof wee ought not to doubt to geue our lyues / and that they be not such as we ought to kepe / so that we haue them without strife and without sweate / or easely / but such as for the keeping of them if we haue them / and for the obtayning of them if we haue them not (I will not say our honoures / or our commodities and wealth / but as I haue sayd) our lyues ought not to be deare vnto vs. For therefore doth hee make mention of the confession of Christ vnto the death / that he might shew vs an example / and forthwith speaketh of God / which rayseth from the dead / that by thys meanes he might comfort Timothe if he should be brought into any trou­ble for the defence of any of these things.

Fourthly / if we refer those wordes without spot or blemish vnto the com­maundement (as I for my part thinke they ought to be) then there is a waight in these words not to be passed ouer / which is / y^t the apostle will not only haue the rules heere contayned / not troden vnder the feete / or broken in peeces / but hee will not haue them so much as in any one small poynt or specke neglected. But I see how M. Doctor will wype away all thys / and say that these thinges / or some of them were to bee obserued thus necessarily and precisely / vntill there were christian prynces and peace in the churche: but the print is deeper then that it will bee so washed away. Therefore it is to be obserued / what he sayeth in the latter end of the sentence / where he chargeth Timothe / and in hym all / that hee should keepe all these things / not vntill the tyme of peace / or to the times of Chri­stian Princes / but euen vntill the comming or appearing of our sauiour Christ / which is as long as the world lasteth. And therfore I conclude that the seigniors or elders of the church (being a part of that order and gouernment of the church / which S. Paule appoynteth in thys Epistle) are necessary / perpetuall / and by no meanes to be changed. So that we haue / not only now the examples of all the pri­mitiue churches (which ought to moue vs / if there were no commaundement) but [Page 178] we haue also a straight commaundement: I say the onely examples ought to moue vs / for what way can we safelyer follow / then the common hygh way / bea­ten and troden by the steps of all the Apostles / and of all the churches? Things also growing / and being preserued by the same meanes by the which they were ingendred / why shoulde we thinke but that the churches now will prosper by that gouernment / whereby it first came vp? But I say we haue not only the ex­amples of the churches / but wee haue also commaundement and strayght charge to keepe thys office of elders and auncientes in the church / and therefore it is not onely rashnesse in leauing the way that the Apostles and churches by the Apo­stles aduise haue gone / but disobedyence also to depart from theyr commaunde­ment / and to mayntayne and defend that we may doe so / I can almost geue it no gentler name then rebellion.

Now I will come to Mayster Doctors reasons which he hath in the hun­dreth and fourteene / and a hundred and fifteene pages / where he graunteth that there were elders in euery church in tymes past / but sayth that it ought not now so to bee. For sayeth hee / the tymes alter the gouernment / and it can not be go­uerned in the tyme of prosperitie / as in the tyme of persecution / vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant. Thus he sayeth / but sheweth no reason / bringeth no proofe / declareth not how nor why prosperity will not beare the Elders as well as persecution / neyther why they may not be vnder a godly prince as well as vn­der a tyrant / onles thys be a reason / that because the godly prince doth nourishe the church as a cyuill magistrate / therefore the auncientes may not nourish it as Ecclesiasticall ouerseers.

Now seeing Maister Doctor can shew vs no cause why they may not as well be now / as in the tyme of the Apostles / as well vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant / I will shew hym that although they be alwayes necessary / yet there is better cause why they should rather be now then in the apostles times / greater necessyty vnder a christian prince / then vnder a tyrant. First of all in the apostles tymes it is knowne that the giftes of the spirite of wisedome / discretion / knowledge / enduring of trauaile / were poured forth more plentifully then euer they were / eyther before / or shall be after. By reason whereof the pastoures and mynisters of the churches that were then / were (I speake generally / and of the estate of the whole Church) better furnyshed with the giftes needefull for their mynistery / then are the mynisters of these dayes. Wherupon I conclude that if the ayde and assistance of the pastor by the Elders / was thought necessary by the apostles in those tymes / when the mynisters were so well / and so richly repleni­shed with such giftes / much more is that ayde and assistance meete for the myni­sters of these dayes / wherein their giftes of discretion and knowledge / and dyli­gence / are not so plentifull. For if they whose eye sight was so cleare to perceiue / whose handes so nimble to execute / had neede for their ayde / of other eyes & other handes / then the mynisters now / whose eyes are dimmer / and hands heauier then theirs were / haue much more neede of thys ayde then they had.

Agayne / if S. Paule dyd charge the persecuted / & therefore pore churches / 1. Epist. 5. 17. with the fineding and prouiding for the senyors in euery church (as it appeareth in the Epistle to Timothe / where he sayeth that Elders whiche rule well / are worthy double honour / whereby he signifyeth a plentifull rewarde / and suche as may be fully sufficient for them and their housholdes / as when he biddeth that the widdow which serued the churche in attending vpon the sicke / and vppon the straungers shoulde be honoured / that is / haue that wherewyth shee might ho­nestly and soberly liue) if I say Saynt Paule woulde charge the churches then with mayntayning the elders / which being poore / were not sometimes hable to liue without some reliefe from the church / because they were compelled often­times to leaue their owne affaires / to wayte of the affaires of the church: how [Page 179] much more ought there now to be senyors / when the churches be in peace / and therefore not so pore / and when there may be chosen such for the most part tho­roughout the realme / as are able to liue without charging the church any whit / as the practise of these dayes doth manifestly declare.

And if S. Paule that was so desirous to haue the gospell adapanon, that 1. Cor. 9. 18. is / free and without charges as much as is possible / and so loth to lay any bur­then vpon the churches / especially those which were poore / dyd notwithstanding enioyne the mayntenaunce of the elders vnto the churches poore and persecuted / how much more shall we thincke / that hys mynde was that the Churches which liue in peace / and are rich / and may haue thys office without charge / ought to re­ceiue thys order of auncientes?

Moreouer those that be learned know / that the gouernement of the church which was in the apostles tymes / being partly in respect of the people that had to doe in the elections and other things popular: partly in respect of the pastors and auncientes Aristocraticall / that is the rule of the best: I say they know that these gouernmentes do easely declyne into their contraries / and by reason therof both the gouernment of those which were most vertuous / might easely be chaunged into the gouernment of few of the richest / or of greatest power / and the populare estate might easely passe to a confused tumulte. Now thys incommoditie were they more subiect vnto vnder a tyrant / then vnder a godly prince. For they had no cyuill magistrate which might correct and reforme those declyninges when they happened. For the tyrantes dyd not know of it / and if they had known of it / they would haue bene glad to see the churches goe to wracke. Therfore now we haue a godly ciuil magistrate / which both wil & ought to remedy such declinings & con­uersions of good gouernment into euill / it followeth that thys estate & gouernmēt by auncientes / is rather to be vsed vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant.

Besides thys / in the tyme of persecution all assemblyes of dyuers together were daungerous and put them all in hazard of their lyfe which dyd make those assemblies: And therefore if the pastor alone might haue ordered and determyned of things pertayning to the church by hym selfe / it had bene lesse daunger to him / and more safety for others of the Church. And therfore if the senyors were then thought meete to gouerne the church / when they could not come together to ex­ercise their functions without daunger / much more ought they to be vnder a chri­stian prince / when they may meete together without daunger.

M. Doctor proceedeth / & sayeth it can not be gouerned in a whole realme / as it may be in a citie or town. This gouernment by senyors is not only in one ci­tie / but also hath beene of late throughout the whole realme of Fraunce / where there were any churches: and M. Doctor confesseth that it was in all the primi­tiue churches / and therefore not onely in one realme / but almost throughout the whole world / and therefore the large spreading of the church / can not hynder it. So that the difference lyeth still in the peace and persecution of the Church / and not in the capacitie and largenesse of the place where the churches abyde. So might one reason agaynst the lawfull estate of a Monarchie: For he might say that although the rule of one be needefull and conuenient in a housholde / yet it is not conuenient in a towne / and although it be conuenient in a towne / yet it is not in a citie / and although in a citie / yet not in a realme.

To be short sayeth hee / when he can say no more / it can not be gouerned when it is full of hypocrites / Papistes / Atheistes / and other wicked persons / as in the times of persecution / when there were few or none such. I haue shewed before / how great want of knowledge it bewrayeth / to say that Papistes and A­theistes be of the church / and I loue not as Maister Doctor doth to vse often repetition / but if there bee now moe hypocrites & other wicked and vnruely par­sones in y^e church / then there were in the tyme of persecution (which I wil not de­ny) [Page 180] thē there is greater cause now / why there should be senyors in euery churche / then there was then when there were fewer. For the more naughty persons / and the greater disorders there be / the more ayde and helpe hath the pastor neede to haue / both to finde out their disorders / and also when they haue founde them out / to iudge of the qualitie of them / and after also to correct them with the censures of the church / which standeth in such reprehensions priuate and open / and excom­munication / as I haue before rehearsed.

Afterwarde he asketh what senyors may bee had in most of the paryshes of Englande fitte for that office? he asketh the same question in the. 133. page / where he also addeth pastors / asking where may be gotten such pastoures as the authors of the Admonition require / when as they require no other then those which the word of God requireth. Well then if thys be a good reason why there should be no elders in any church / because fitte men are not to be gotten in all pa­ryshes: it followeth by M. Doctors reason / that forasmuch as we haue not fit and able pastors for euery church / that therfore we ought to haue no able pastor in any church.

And if he will graunt that we ought to haue able pastoures in as many pla­ces as they may be gotten: how can he deny / that wee should haue elders in those churches where fitte men may bee had. And I say further / where wee haue an expresse commaundement layde vpon vs to doe a thing / there all disputations must cease / of hardenes / of impossibility / or profite / or else of peace. For first God hath not commaunded any orders in hys churche which are impossible / and if they seeme harde / it must bee remembred / that the best and excellentest things are hardest / and that there is nothing so harde / which dyligence and trauayle to bring it to passe / will not ouercome. Which thing if it bee proued true in worldly affaires / the truth therof will much more appeare in the matters pertayning vnto God / considering that if God with hys blessing doe surmount all the difficultyes in worldly matters whych are otherwyse harde to be compassed / hee will in hys owne matters / and matters pertayning to hys glory / fill vp the valleys / although they be neuer so low / bring downe the hylles / althoughe they bee neuer so high / playne the wayes be they neuer so rough: so that he will make of a way not pas­sable in the eyes of flesh / away tracked and easie to goe in / and to walke towardes that kingdome / whereunto hee calleth vs. Besides that / I answere wheresoe­uer there is a churche / there are the riches of the spirite of God / there is wyth knowledge / discretion & wisdom / and there are suche as * S. Paule calleth wise / 1. Cor. 10. 15. and can discerne and iudge. And wee see that when men are called to a lawfull and profitable calling / and especially to a publike calling / God doth powre on hys giftes of that person which is called so plentifully / that hee is as it were sodenly made a newe manne / which if he do in the wicked as Saule was / there is no 1. Sam. 10. 6. doubt but he will doe it in those / which are with the testimony of the church / and with experience of their former godly behauiour / chosen to such offices of waight. So that there is not / nor can not bee any want to obey Goddes commaunde­ment / and to establishe the order in the church whych God hath appoynted / but our owne eyther neglygence and slouthfulnes / or fearefulnes / or ambition / or some other leuen which we nourish within our selues. It is true / that we ought to be obedyent vnto the cyuill magistrate / which gouerneth the church of God in that office which is committed vnto hym / and according to that calling. But it must be remembred / that cyuil magistrates must gouerne it according to the rules of God prescribed in hys word / & that as they are nourises / so they be seruauntes vnto the church / and as they rule in the churche / so they must remember to sub­iect them selues vnto the churche / to submit their scepters / to throw downe their crownes / before the church / yea as the Prophet speaketh / to licke the dust of the Esay. 49. 23. feete of the churche. Wherein I meane not / that the churche doth eyther wring [Page 181] the scepters out of Princes hands / or taketh their crownes from their heads / or that it requireth Princes to licke the dust of her feete (as the Pope vnder thys pretence hath done) but I meane as y^e Prophet meaneth / that whatsoeuer mag­nificence / or excellencye / or pompe / is eyther in them or in their estates and com­mon wealthes / whych doth not agree wyth the simplicity / and in the iudgement of the world) poore and contemptible estate of the church / that that they will be content to lay downe.

And heere commeth to my minde / that wherwyth the world is now decey­ued / and wherwyth M. doctor goeth about bothe to deceiue him selfe and others to / in that he thinketh that the church must be framed according to the common wealth / and the church gouernment accordyng to the ciuill gouernment / whych is as much to say / as if a man shuld fashion hys house according to hys hāgings / when as in deede it is cleane contrary / that as the hangings are made fit for the house / so the common wealth must be made to agree wyth the church / and the go­uernment therof wyth her gouernmēt. For as the house is before the hangings / & therefore the hangings whych come after / must be framed to the house whych was before: so the church being before there was any common wealthe / and the common wealthe comming after / muste be fashioned and made sutable vnto the church. Otherwyse God is made to geue place to men / heauen to earth / and re­ligion is made (as it were) a rule of Lesbia / to be applyed vnto any estate of com­mon wealth whatsoeuer.

Seing that good men / that is to say the church / are as it were the founda­tion of the worlde / it is meete that the common wealthe whych is builded vppon that foundation / should be framed according to the churche / & therfore those voy­ces ought not to be heard / thys order will not agree wyth oure common wealth / that lawe of God is not for our state / thys forme of gouernment will not matche wyth the pollicy of thys realme.

Nowe to come againe to M. Doctors reasons / he sayeth in the. 133. page / that if they vrge gouernoures because they are spoken of in the. 12. to the Corin. then they may as well vrge the power to worke miracles / the gift of healing. &c. for that they are likewyse reckened vp in the same place. But dothe not M. doc­tor know / that although some thyngs be extraordinarye / and for a time / yet other some thyngs are ordinary / and to endure alwayes? Will he say for that the gifts of miracles and of healing are extraordinarye / therefore the teachers whych are there reckened together wyth the gift of working miracles and of healing are ex­traordinary? hath he forgotten that he (in deede vntruely) made before the office of Apostles and Prophets / and Euangelists / a perpetual office / and yet they are there ioyned wyth these gifts whych were but for a time / and therfore it is a ve­ry absurde argument to saye / that for that some thyng reckened with gouernors / is for a time / and extraordinary / therfore the gouernors be so. As for Musculus authoritye / whych is / that the tymes do chaunge the orders / besides that I haue answeared before / and besides that he dothe not speake it of the Elders / I haue proued that it can haue no place heere / for so much as the Elders are necessarye / and commaunded in the scripture.

Vnto the authors of the Admonition saying that it is easier to ouerthrowe by bryving / one man / then the fayth and piety of a godly company: he answeareth / that so it should come to passe / that the moe that ruled / the better estate it shoulde be / and so the populare estate should be the best. But where do the authors of the admonition say / that the more that rule / the better it is? is it all one to saye / that the gouernment of a fewe of the best / is better then the gouernment of one / and to saye / the more that rule the better? If it were to the purpose / it myghte be shewed both by Diuinitye and by Philosophye / whych M. Doctor speaketh of / that that estate whych he meaneth / is not the best: and I haue in a word before [Page 183] spoken of it / where I declared that the mixed estate is best / bothe by the example of the kingdome of Christ / and also of thys our realme. It is sufficient nowe to admonyshe you / that although it be graunted that the gouernment of one / be the best in the common wealth / yet it can not be in the church. For the Prince may wel be Monarche immediately betwene God & the common wealth / but no man can be Monarche betwene God & hys church but Christ / whych is the only head therof. Therfore the Monarchie ouer the whole church / and ouer euery particu­lare church / and ouer euery singular membre in the church / is in Chryst alone.

Last of all / to proue that there ought to be no senyors in the church vnder a Christian prince / he citeth Ambroses authority both in the. 114. and. 132. pages / whych sayeth that the sinagogue or church of the Iewes / & after that the church of the chrystians had senyors / wythout whose counsell nothyng was done in the church: whervpon he concludeth / that for as much as they were not in Ambrose tyme / therfore they were not vnder a christian prince. And heere M. doctor hath in one sentence proclaimed bothe hys great ignorance in the whole storye of the churche / and wythall eyther a maruellous abusion / and suffering hym selfe to be misled by some vnaduysed prompter / or subtile foxe that thought to deceyne him / or else a notable euill conscience / whych wrastleth agaynst the truthe. Hys igno­rance doth appeare partly in that he sayeth / that because there were no senyors in Amb. church / and in those churches about hym / therefore there was none at all: but moste manifestly in that he sayeth / for so much as there were no senyors in Amb. time / therefore there was none vnder a christian Prince / as though there were not many yeres before Amb. tyme christian Emperors / when as betwene the tyme of S. Ambrose being byshop / and the tyme of Phillip successor of Gor­dias the first christian Emperor / there is more then a. 150. yeares / and betweene the time of Constantine the Emperor / and the tyme of Ambrose being byshop / there be aboue. 80. yeares. And if M. Doctor had euer red the ecclesiasticall sto­ryes / he mought haue founde easely the eldershyp moste flourishyng in Constan­tines tyme / and other tymes / when as the peace of the chrystians was greatest.

And that the presbyterie or eldershyp endured in the church after Ambrose tyme / and in the tyme of peace / and as it is very lyke in Amb. tyme / although not where he was / it may be shewed plainly by Ierome (whych folowed Ambrose 4. Tom. 2. lib. in Isalam. immediatlye) who in hys third chapter vpon Esay / sayeth that they had also the presbyterie or eldershyp in the church. The same myght be shewed by diuers o­ther testimonies / whych I omit / because that it may appeare by the former trea­tise touchyng the election of the mynister / that thys order of eldershyp continued in the church diuers hundreth yeares after Ambrose tyme / euen as long almoste as there was any sound part of the church / from the head to the heele. Nowe I haue shewed the ignorance / it remayneth to shewe howe that eyther M. Doctor was maruellously hym selfe abused / or else desyreth to abuse other. For if wher­as he toke halfe Ambrose sentence / he had taken the other halfe wyth hym / and had not sodenly stopped hys breath that he should speake no more / in steade of a false wytnes agaynst the eldershyp / he should haue brought forthe as cleare and as flat a witnes for the proofe of them / as a man coulde desire out of an auncient wryter. The whole sentence is thys / speakyng of thys offyce of the elders / (al­though not vpon so good occasyon) thus he sayeth: Whervpon the sinagoge / and Ambrose vpon 1. Tim. chap. 5 after the church had elders / wythout whose counsell nothyng was done in the church / whych Elders I know not by what neglygence they are worne out / on­les it be through the slouthfulnes of the doctors / or rather throughe theyr pryde / whylest they only would seeme to be somewhat.

Now that I haue shewed the place / I wyll say no more / I wyl leaue it to M. Doctor to thinke of it in his chamber by hym selfe / and so will conclude this question: that for so much as thys order is such / as wythout whych / the princi­pall [Page 183] offices of charity can not be exercysed: and that it is that which is commaū ­ded by the scryptures / approued and receyued by all the churches in the Apostles tymes / and many hundreth yeares after in the most flouryshing churches / bothe in tyme of peace / & in tyme of persecution: and that there are greater causes why it should be in the tyme of peace / then in tyme of persecution / why rather vnder a christian prince / then vnder a tyrant / why rather now / then in y^e apostles times / that in consyderation of these things / the eldershyp is necessary / and such an order as the church ought not to be wythout. And so also is answeared the third que­stion / that for so much as they were church offycers / and ouer the people in mat­ters Heb. 13. 17. pertayning to God / & such as watched ouer the soules of men / that therfore although they were not pastors to preach the word / yet were they no lay men (as they terme them) but ecclesiasticall persons. The rest comprehended in these sec­tions / is answeared before / being matter whych pertayned vnto the archbyshop.

Nowe I returne backe agayne to Excommunicacion / whych M. Doctor thynketh to be the only disciplyne in the church / but he shuld vnderstand / that be­syde that parte of priuate disciplyne / (whych is ordinarily and dayly to be exerci­sed by euery one of the pastors & elders / as Admonition and reprehension) there are .iij. princypal parts / whych are exercised of them ioyntly and together / wher­of the first is the election or choyse / and the abdication or putting out of Ecclesia­sticall officers. The second is in excommunication of the stubburne / or absoluti­on of the repētant. The third is the decision of all such matters as doe ryse in the church / eyther touchyng corrupt manners / or peruerse doctryne.

As touchyng the election / and consequently the throwing out / it hath bene shewed before / that together wyth the churche / the eldershyp hathe the principall sway. For the decision of controuersyes whē they ryse / it may appeare in the. 15. of the Acts / that the Presbyterie or Eldershyp of the churche hath to determine of that also. Nowe it remayneth heere / that whereas M. Doctor sayeth that the Excommunication / and consequently the absolution or restoryng to the church a­gayne / doth pertayne only to the minister / that I shewe that the Presbyterye or eldership / and the whole church also / hath interest in the Excommunication / and consequently in the absolution or restoryng vnto the churche. But heere by the way it is to be noted / that in saying that it belongeth to the minister / he confesseth the dysorder in our church / wherin this power is taken away from the minister / and geuen to the byshop and hys offycers.

Nowe that thys charge of excommunication belongeth not vnto one / or to the minyster / but cheefely to the eldershyp and pastor / it appeareth by that whych the authors of the admonition alledge out of S. Mathewe / whych place I haue Chap. 18. 17. proued before to be necessarily vnderstāded of the elders of the church. It is most absurdly sayd of M. doctor in the. 135. page / that by the church is vnderstanded eyther my Lordes grace / or the byshop of the diocese / or the Chancellor or Com­missarye. And that when a man complayneth vnto one of these / he may be well sayd to complayne vnto the church: whych is the more vntollerable / for that be­ing so straunge a saying / and suche as may astonyshe all that heare it / he neyther confirmeth it by any reason / or lyke phrase of scrypture / or by the authority of any godly or approued wryter olde or newe / whych notwythstanding he seeketh for so diligently / and turneth the commentaries in hys study so painefully / when he can haue but one against twentye / and but a sillable where he can not haue a sen­tence. It may be the clearlyer vnderstanded / that the presbyterie or eldership / had the cheefe stroke in this excōmunication / if it be obserued / that thys was the pol­licy and discipline of the Iewes / and of the smagogue from whence our sauyoure Christ toke this / and translated it vnto this church / that when any man had don any thing that they held for a fault / that then the same was punished and censu­red by the Elders of the church / according to the quality of the faulte / as it maye appeare in S. Mathewe. For althoughe it be of some (and those very learned) Chap. 5. 22. [Page 184] expounded of the ciuill iudgement / yet for so muche as the Iewes had nothyng to do wyth ciuill iudgements (the same being altogyther in the hands of the Ro­maines) and that the word san [...]drim, corrupted of the Greeke worde synedrion, whych S. Mathewe vseth / is knowen by those that haue skill in the Rabbins / and especially the Iewes Talmud, to signifye the ecclesiasticall gouernors / there can be no doubt but he meaneth the ecclesiasticall censures. And if the fault were iudged very great / then the sentence of Excommunication was awarded by the same elders / as appeareth in S. Iohn. And thys was the cause why our saui­oure Chap. 9. 22. Christe spake so shortly of thys matter in the. 18. of S. Mathew / wythout noting the circumstances more at large / for that he spake of a thyng whych was well knowne and vsed amongst the Iewes whome he spake vnto. And that this was the meaning of our sauioure Christe in those wordes / it may appeare by the practise whych is set forthe in the Epistles to the Corinthians. For it is certain that S. Paule dyd bothe vnderstand and obserue the rule of our sauyor Christ. But he communicateth thys power of Excommunication wyth the church / and therfore it must needes be the meaning of oure sauioure Christe / that the excom­munication should be by many / and not by one / and by the church / and not by the minister of the church alone. For he biddeth the church of Corinthe twise in the first Epistle / once by a Metaphore / an other time in playne woordes / that they should excommunicate the incestuous person. By metaphore / saying: (purge out your olde leauen) in playne and flat words / when he sayeth (take away that wic­ked Chap. 5. 7. 13. man from amongst you.) And in the second Epistle vnderstanding of the re­pentance of that man / he entreateth them that they would receyue hym in again / 2. Cor. 2. 10. shewing that he was content to release the bonde and chaine of hys excommuni­cation / so that they wold do the same / and therefore consydering the absolution / or reconciliation of the excommunicate / dothe pertaine vnto the church / it folow­eth that the excommunication doth in lyke manner appertaine vnto it.

Now / wheras M. Doctor vpon those wordes of S. Paule / that he being absent in body / and present in spirite / had determined. &c. concludeth y^t the ryght of excommunication was in S. Paule / and not in the rest / it is as much as if he should say / S. Paule as much as lay in hym excommunicated / therfore s. Paule excommunicated: or S. Paule excommunicated / therefore the churche dyd not. For what if S. Paule dyd excommunicate hym so muche as lay in hym / shoulde he therfore haue bene excommunicated / if the church of Corinthe / and the miny­ster there would haue admitted hym to the supper / and not abstaine from famili­are companying wyth hym? You will say he should haue bene bounde in heauen and before God / although the church of Corinthe had not put hym forthe. It is true that the apostles denunciation of Gods vengeance vpon the impenitent sin­ner / is ratifyed in heauen / and so shoulde he also haue bene if S. Paule had sayd nothyng / and yet S. Paule dyd not excommunicate the incestuous persone / but so much as lay in hym / and as farre as hys ryght stretched: not being therfore yet excommunicated by S. Paule / it foloweth that the church had a stroke in the ex­communication. Againe / to proue that the church hath nothyng to doe wyth ex­communication / it is not enoughe to say that S. Paule had the ryght of excom­munication: But you shoulde haue shewed that he only had it / and then you are manifestly conuicted by S. Paules own words / whych ioyneth the church with hym in that excommunication / saying that he had decreed that the doer of that fact (by hys spirite / and them gathered together in the name of Iesus Christe / and by hys power) should be geuen to sathan. And if the right of excommunica­tion were only in S. Paule / how is it that you sayd before / that it is in the mini­ster of the churche? had the minister of the churche of Corinthe nothing to doe? And if it were in S. Paule alone / why doth he chide wyth the church / that they had not already excommunicated hym before he wrote vnto them to signifye hys [Page 185] wyll to excommunicate? or if it were in the minister of the church only / why w [...] S. Paule chide and sharply rebuke the church / for that the incestuous man was not cast forthe? Why doth he charge the Corinthians wyth that whych was the only fault of the minister?

An other obiection M. doctor hath out of the .16. of S. Mathew / and the 20. of Iohn / in whych places because he giueth power to the .xij. to bynde and to lose / M. Doctor will conclude that they only haue power to binde and to lose. Salomon sayeth that the iust man is first the accuser of himselfe / and therfore it Prou. 18. 17. behoued M. doctor or euer he shuld haue accused the authors of the Admonition of dalying and vnreuerent handlyng of the scriptures / to haue first of all spoken to him selfe / and haue strickē him selfe vpon the thigh. For if thys be not to abuse the scriptures / I knowe not what is to abuse them / for to let passe that some and of the auncient wryters do expounde the place of S. Mathewe of euery membre of Christ / and of as many as haue faith to confes Christ to be the some of God / and so by that meanes to haue power of excommunication / I say to let that goe / M. doctor myght easely know if he would / that in that pla [...]e our sauyor Christ speaketh of the binding and losing whych [...]y y^e preaching of the word of God / standyng in threates and promyses / and therefore that binding pertayneth only vnto the ministers / to whom the preachyng doth only belong. But in the .18. of S. Mathewe where he speaketh of the binding and losing by excommunication and receyuing to the churche agayne / there he attributeth thys power vnto the church. He hath an other obiection out of S. Paule to Timothe / where for that it is sayde that s. Paule dyd excommunicate Hymineus and Alexander / he con­cludeth after hys old manner / that therfore he only excommunicated. But for so much as I haue proued that both the rule of Christ / & the practise of S. Paule accordyng to that rule / be otherwyse / it can not be that S. Paule dyd excommu­nicate hym selfe alone those persons: for then he should disagree bothe wyth our sauyor Christ and wyth hym selfe. But as I haue shewed before in other eccle­siastical actions and exercises of discipline / that one man is sayd to do that which was done of many / for because one was moderator of that action or exercise: so s. Paul here sayeth that he dyd excommunicate / not that he dyd it by hym selfe a­lone / but because he was president & cheefe in that action. And although it shuld be graunted (whych can not) that S. Paule dyd excommunicate hymselfe alone (being an apostle / or for one tyme) yet it neyther foloweth that the byshop or mi­nister may do that whych the apostle dyd / or that he may do continually y^e which was done but once and extraordinarily. As for the place of Titus the thirde / it maketh nothyng to excommunication / onles you wold conclude that for that S. Paule biddeth Titus to trouble hymselfe no more wyth confuting an obstinate hereticke / therfore he biddeth hym excommunicate an hereticke by hym selfe. As touching Bafiles place in the second booke of Offices when the booke commeth forth & is Printed / then it shalbe answered / as for me I know of none such that is extant now. To the rest I will answer wyth thys protestation / that if all men should do contrary to the order of God / yet their authority or example ought not to haue the waight of a fether / which I haue said before / & do vnderstand it in all places wher I do not expres it / & wyth this I come to M. doctors authorities.

And as for Theodoretus byshop of Laodicea / whych Sozomene maketh mention of in hys sixthe booke / I finde none suche / but there is mentioned of one Theodotus / who is sayd to haue seperated or excommunicated Apollinaris / but it doth not appeare there that he alone of hys owne authority dyd excommunicate hym. And there be great reasons in that Chapter / to proue that he dyd it not of hys owne authority / for immediatly after his heresy was knowne / Damasus bi­shop of Rome / and Peter bishop of Alexandria / caused a sinode to be gathered at Rome / where hys heresy was condemned. Now for so much as the custome of [Page 186] synodes and councels is / when they condenme the heresyes / to excommunicate the heretickes / it is to be thoughte that that councell dyd excommunicate hym / and that Theodotus byshop of Laodicea / dyd execute that decree and excommunica­tion. And in deede Sozomene doth so expound hym selfe / when immediatly after he had sayde that he dyd excommunicate him / he addeth acoinonetoh auton apo­phainei, whych is / that he declared him excommunicate / whych in deede properly belongeth to the minister / when the excommunication is decreed by those to whō it appertaineth. Whych thing may yet better appeare by the manner of speache whych is vsed in an other place / where speaking of [...]ictor excommunycating Theodotus / he vttereth it by thys apekeryxe, whych is to promulgate or pro­nounce the sentence whych was decreed by others. As for Amb. although he be greatly commended for excommunicating the Emperor / yet he was neuer com­mended / for that he did excommunicate him himselfe alone: and if he dyd excom­municate him himselfe alone / yet hys fault was the les / for so much as he being desirous of an eldershyp / could not as it semeth by hys complaint (which I haue spoken of before) [...]aine one. And although the storyes doe not make mention y^• there were others / whose authority came into thys excommunication / yet it fol­loweth not y^• there were no other. And how often wil you stomble at that / which you do so sharply reproue in others / whych is in making of arguments of autho­rity negatiuely? And if you will not graūt thys manner of reasonyng in the scrip­ture / in matters pertaining to the gouernment of the church / whych are all com­prehended in the scripture / how would you reason of a common story / whych nei­ther can / nor dothe professe to speake all those things whych fall into that matter whych it wryteth of? But what if so be it be proued that Ambrose did not this of hys owne authoritye / but by the authoritye also of others / will you then confesse that he is commended of all those whych wryte stories for so doing / and confesse that the vse and practise of the primitiue church was far from thys that is nowe? For proufe whereof I will geue you a place whych Ambrose the best wytnes of thys matter hath in one of his epistles / wher he sheweth that assone as the mur­ther whych Theodosius had caused to be done at the citye of Thessalonica was Epist. 38. heard / by and by the byshops of Fraunce came and there was holden a Synode: where also Ambrose sayeth / that hys communicating wyth Theodosius / coulde Ambros. lib. de obitu Theo­dos. not absolue hym (for that as it myght appeare) the byshops in that synode had in excommunicating hym / ordained that he should not be absolued vntill suche tyme as he had done repentance / whych he did afterward with confessyon of his faulte before the congregation / and asking forgeuenes of it. So it appeareth that that whych he did / he did it by the sentence of the synode / and not of hys owne autho­rity alone. In the. 220. & 221. pages / he speaketh of thys thing a fresh / but hath no newe matter / but maketh a bare rehersall of the places of the admonition / as­king after hys accustomed manner of confuting / what maketh thys or what pro­ueth that? only wheras he sayd before / and proued (as he thought) that the mini­ster had only to do wyth excommunication / being pressed there / by the admoniti­on either to defend or renounce hys Chauncellors. &c. he had rather deny bothe the truth and himselfe / then he wold haue any of that horrible confusion and pro­phanation of the holy discipline of God (brought in by popery threatnyng the o­uerthrow of the whole church / & seruing for nothing but for the nourishing of the ambition and idlenes of a fewe) driuen out of the church. Of the whych I will vpon occasion speake a word / if first I shewe that the vse of the auncyent church hath bene not to permit the excommunication to one / but that the sentence therof should come from the gouernors and elders of the church / vnto whome that dyd especially appertaine. Although I can not passe by that which M. doctor sayth / that for so much as the authors of the Admonition had alledged the words (tell the church) to proue the interest of the church in excommunication / that therefore [Page 187] they could not vse the same to proue the interest of the pastor / as who should saye that the pastor is not one of the church. But of the absurdity of this / I haue spo­ken sufficiently before / and how all men do see the vanity of thys reason / that be­cause y^t people haue an interest by thys place / therfore the pastor hath none. But I come to shew the vse of the primitiue church in thys matter / wherof we haue a manifest testimony in Tertullian. If (sayth he) there be any whych hath com­mitted Tertull. in A­polog. 39. [...]. suche a faulte that he is to be put away from the partakyng of the prayer of the church / and from all holy matters or affaires: there do beare rule or be pre­sidents certaine of the most approued auncients or elders / whych haue obtayned thys honor / not by mony / but by good report. And that the auncients had the or­dering of these things / and the peoples consent was required / and that if the case were a very difficult case / it was referred vnto the synodes or councels / and that the ministers dyd not take vpon them of their owne authority to excommunicate / and that those whych dyd receiue the excommunicate wythout the knowledge & consent of the churche were reprehended / it may appeare almost in euery page of Eib. 3. ep. 8. 10. 14. 19. 1. Lib. 3. epi. 3. lib. contra. ep. Parmen. Cyprians Epistles / and namely in these whych I haue noted in the margent.

In Augustines tyme it appeareth also / that the consent of the church was required / for in the third boke agaynst the epistle of Parmenian / he sheweth that if the multitude of the church be not in that fault for which one is to be excommu­nicated / that then it helpeth much to make the party both afrayde and ashamed / that he be excommunicated or anathematised (as he calleth it) by all the churche / and in hys bookes de Baptis. contra Donatistas, in diuers places / he is so far from permitting the excommunication to one man / y^t he semeth to fal into the other ex­tremity / whych is to make the estate of the church to populare / and the people to haue too great a sway. For there he sheweth / that if the most of the people be in­fected wyth the fault whych is to be punyshed by excommunication / that then no excommunication ought to be attempted / for because a sufficient numbre of voy­ces will not be obtained for the excommunication. By whych testimonies / be­sydes the institution of God / & the practise of the churches in the apostles times / appeareth manifestly what hath ben the vse of the churches touchyng excommu­nication / as long as there was any purity in the church. And it is to be obserued heere / that bothe in thys parte of the discipline / and also in all other partes of it (as I haue shewed) as in harder and difficulter causes / thyngs were referred vnto the Synodes prouincial / nationall / or generall / as the case required: so if the elders of any church shall determine any thing contrary to the worde of God / or inconueniently in any matter that falleth into their determination / the partyes whych are greeued / may haue recourse for remedy / vnto the elders and pastoures of dyuers churches / that is to say vnto Synodes of shires / or dioceses / or pro­uinces / or nations of as great or of as small compasse as shall be thought conue­nient by the church / according to the difficulty or waight of the matters / whych are in controuersy. Whych meetings ought to be as often as can be conuenient­ly / not only for the decision of suche difficultyes whych the seuerall presbyteries can not so well iudge of / but also to the ende that common counsell myght be ta­ken for the best remeady of the vices or incommodities whych eyther the chur­ches be in / or in daunger to be in. And as those thyngs whych can not be decided by the Eldershyp of the churches are to be reserued vnto the knowledge of some Synode of a shire or diocese: so those whych for their hardnesse can not be there decided / must be brought into the Synodes of larger compasse as I haue shew­ed to haue bene done in the apostles times / and in the churches whych followed them long after.

These thyngs standing in thys sorte / all those Courtes of byshoppes and archbyshoppes must needes fall / whych were by Antichrist erected against thys lawfull iurisdiction of Eldership / as the courte of faculties / and those whych are [Page 188] holden by chauncellors / commissaries / officials / and suche lyke / the describyng of the corruptions wherof / would require a whole boke / of whych I will note the principall heads and summes.

First / for y^e they enter into an offyce whych pertaineth not vnto them / but to euery particulare church / and especially to the eldershyp or gouernoures of the church / and therfore although they should do nothing but that whych were good / lawfull / and godly / yet can they not approue their labors vnto men / much les to God / puttyng their sickle in an other mannes harnest. For neyther by the truthe of the worde of God dothe that appertayne vnto them / neyther by M. Doctors owne iudgement (if hys yea were yea / and hys nay nay) consydering that he sayd before / that thys iurisdiction belongeth to the ministers. And although it should pertaine vnto the Byshop / (as he is called) to whom notwythstanding it dothe not appertaine) yet were it not lawfull for hym to translate thys office vnto an other / and to appoynt one to doe it when he lysteth / no more then he can appoynt them to doe hys other offyces of ministring / as preaching the worde / and mini­string the sacraments.

An other thyng is / that in these courts (whych they cal spiritual) they take the knowledge of matters / which are meere ciuil / therby not only peruerting the order whych God hath appoynted / in seuering the ciuill causes from the ecclesia­sticall / but iustling also wyth the ciuill magistrate / and thrusting hym from the iurisdiction / whych appertaineth vnto hym / as the causes of the contracts of ma­riage / of diuorces / of willes & testaments / w^t diuers suche other like things. For although it appertaine to the church and the gouernors therof / to shew out of the word of God whych is a lawfull contract or iust cause of diuorce / and so forthe / yet the iudiciall determination / and definitiue sentences of all these / do appertaine vnto the ciuill magistrate. Heerevnto may be added / that all their punishments almost are penalties of mony / whych can by no meanes appertaine to the church / but is a thyng meerely ciuill.

Thirdly / as they handle matters whych do not appertain vnto the Eccle­siasticall iurisdiction / so those whych do appertaine vnto the church / they do turne from their lawfull institution / vnto other ends not sufferable / whych M. doctor hym selfe doth confesse in excommunicating for money. &c.

Last of all they take vpon them those thyngs / whych are neyther lawful for ciuill nor ecclesiasticall iurisdiction / nor simply for any man to doe / of whych sorte diuers are reckened vp by the admonition / and same confessed by M. Doctor. I will not heere speake of the vnfitnes of those whych are chefe offycers in these courts / that the most of them are eyther papists / or bribers / or drunkardes / (I know what I wryte) or epicures and such as liue of benefices and prebends in England or in Ireland / doing nothing of those things whych appertaine vnto them / and of other suche naughty persons whych are not only not meete to be go­uernors in the church / but whych in any reformed church / shoulde not be so much as of the church. I speake not of all / I doubt not but there be some do y^e whych they do of conscience / and with minde to healpe forwarde the Churche / whych I trust will (when the Lorde shall giue them more knowledge) keepe them selues in their vocations / and being men for their giftes apte and able either to serue the Church or the common wealth in some other calling / will rather occupye theyr gifts there / then where they haue no grounde to assure them selues / that they doe please God. Now I will take a short suruey of that whych M. doctor alleageth to proue his offices of master of faculties / chancellors. &c. First he sayth in y^e. 117 page out of the Ancyran councel / y^t there were vicars of bishops / wher although y^• name be not foūd of chācclors. &c. yet there is (sayth he) the office. What vicar s. Paules B. may haue / and in what case / I haue shewed before / where I haue proued the necessary residence of euery pastor in his flock. But I will note heere [Page 189] how M. Doctor both goe about to abuse hys reader in these vicares. And first where there were three editions / of which one only maketh mention of these vi­cares he tooke that & left the other / which is to be obserued / for that thys varietie of editions rose of the diuers vnderstanding of the greke word (chorepiscopos,) which may be taken eyther for hym that is byshop for an other / and in hys place / or for hym that is byshop in the country / that is in some towne which is no citie / so that chorepiscopus, was opposed vnto the byshop which was of some citie. And if it be so taken / then here is no proofe for the vicarse of byshoppes. But howsoe­uer it be / it shall appeare that the names of chauncelors and / chorepiscopos, doe not so much differ / as the offices and functions of them. For it appeareth in the same Councell and Canon / that they were like the. 70. disciples / that they had also some care to prouide for the poore / and that they were such as dyd mynister the sacramentes. And in an other Councell / they haue authoritie geuen them to Antiochen. cap. 10. make subdeacons / exorcists / and readers. I know thys was a corruption of the mynistery / but yet all men see / how Maister Doctor looketh as it were a farre of vpon things / and therefore taketh a man for a molehill / when he would make vs beleeue that these were chauncelors. &c.

In the. 125. page to the admonition desyring that these may be remoued and the eldershyp establyshed according to Gods order / M. Doctor aunswereth / that that were to place in stede of wise and discrete men / vnlearned / ignorant and vn­apt to rule. Let Maister Doctor take heede / least in alowing so well of the po­pishe ceremonies / not only as tollerable / but as fitte / and then acquainting hym selfe with the papistes maner of speaking / in saying that the people be ignoraunt and vnlearned / he fal or ouer he be aware into some worse thing. Moses in Deu­teronomie / Deut. 4. 6. Prou. 1. [...]. Psa. 25. 12. 14▪ and Salomon in hys prouerbes / place the principall wisedome in kee­king Gods commaundementes and in fearing God. And Dauid sayeth / that the secretes and the priuy councell of the Lord / is knowen to those which feare hym / and I haue shewed out of S. Paule / that he geueth to the spirituall man great 1. Cor. 2. 15. discretion and iudgement of things. If therefore there be in euery church which feare God and keepe hys commaundementes / there are both wise and learned & discrete men / and therefore not to be spoken of so contemptuously as M. Doctor speaketh. And God be praysed there are numbers in the church / that are hable to be teachers vnto most of the chauncelors / in any matter perteyning to the church / and are hable to geue a ryper iudgement in any ecclesiastical matter / then the most part of them can.

And besides that the choysest are to be taken to thys office / thys ought not to be forgotten / that seeing good successe of thinges depend vppon the blessing of God / and that blessing followeth the church when the Lordes order is kept / sim­ple men which carry no great countenaunce or shew / will vndoubtedly doe more good vnto the church / hauing a lawfull calling / then those of great port whiche haue no such calling.

In the. 228. page he thinketh the Archbyshoppes Courte necessary / but bringeth no reason / and further confesseth hym selfe ignoraunt of the estate of it / and therefore I know not from whence that good opynion of hys shoulde come / onlesse it be from thence that he lyketh of all things be they neuer so euill whych the admonition missyketh. The rest which M. D. hath of thys matter is no­thing else but great and high wordes. And as for the Canon law / it is knowen what a stroke it beareth with vs / and that a few cases excepted it remayneth in her former effect.

Vnto the. 149. and. 150. pages.

THe Admonition hath no such thing / as M. Doctor chargeth the authors thereof with / that they dyd euer allow of the booke of seruice. It sayeth they bare with it / and vsed it so farre / as they might / and therefore now when it came to the approuing of it by subscription / they refused / & there is no man which can not vnderstand / that it is one thing to beare with a thing / and an other to ap­proue it / and therefore to beare / and to vse it so farre as might be / may well agree with their refusall of subscription / so that M. Doctors note is not worth the no­ting. The Apostles dyd beare with the infirmitie of the Iewes addicted to the obseruation of the ceremoniall law / yet they neuer alowed that infirmitie / and they were so farre from approuing it by subscribing / that they wrote agaynst it. Those (sayth M. D. which authorized thys booke / were studious of peace / and of building of Christes church / therefore they that speake agaynst it (which hee [Page 196] calleth defacing) are disturbers of the peace / and destroyers of the church. So I will reason: Gedeon was studious of peace / and of building of the churche / therefore they whiche spake agaynst the Ephod which he made / were disturbers of the peace / and destroyers of the church. We speake agaynst images in chur­ches / and consubstantiation in the sacramentes / and such lyke / which Luther be­ing studious of peace / and of the building of the church dyd holde / and yet we are not therfore disturbers of peace / or destroyers of the church. Although they were excellent personnages / yet their knowledge was in part / & although they brought many things to our light / yet they being sent out in the morning / or euer the sunne of the gospell was rysen so hygh / might ouersee many things which those that are not so sharpe of fight / as they were / may see / for because that which they want in the sharpnes of sight / they haue by the benefite and clearenesse of the sun and of the light. They sealed not the booke of seruice with their bloud (as M. Doctor sayeth) for some that suffred for the truth / declared openly theyr mysly­king of certayne thinges in it / and as for the other they coulde neuer dye for that booke / more then for the lyturgie vsed in the Frenche churche / or at Geneua. For they receiued not the sentence of condemnation / because they approued that booke / but because they improued the articles drawne out of the masse booke. And if they had dyed for that booke (as in deede they dyed for the booke of God) yet the authoritie of theyr martyrdome / coulde not take away from vs thys lyberty that we haue to enquire of the cause of theyr death. Iustin and Cyprian were godly martyrs / & yet a man may not say / that they sealed their errors which they wrote with theyr bloud / or with thys glory of their martyrdome / preiudice those which speake or wryte agaynst their erroures: for thys is to oppose the bloud of men / to the bloud of the sonne of God. For the papistes triumph I haue answeared be­fore / and I will not striue about the Goates wolle / who is the opponent / & who the respondent in thys difference.

From the. 151. page vnto the. 171. page / all is answeared where these things which are heere ioyned / are seuerally handled / now vnto that in the. 171. and. 172. pages.

I answere / y^e although it be meete / that as we hope that the homylies which are made already be godly / so those that shall be made hereafter / shall be lykewise: yet considering the mutabilitie of men / and that oftentymes to the worse / it is not meete / nay it is merely vnlawfull / to subscribe to a blancke / seeing that wee can not witnesse or allow of those things which we haue not sene nor heard. The place vnto the Corinthes / is the same vnto the Romanes / and M. Doctor ap­prouing one / hath no cause to fynde fault with the other. For the homylies first of all I haue shewed / how absurde a saying / and how vnlyke a dyuine it is / to match reading of homylies / with preaching of sermons. For if the reading of the holy scriptures is nothing so fruitefull as the preaching of them / muche lesse is the reading of homylies to be for their frute matched with preaching of sermons. There remayneth that I shew briefely / that neyther the homylies nor the Apo­chripha / are at all to be red in the churche. Wherein first it is good to consider the order which the Lorde kept with hys people in tymes past / when he commaun­ded Exod. 30. 29. that no vessell / nor no instrument eyther beesome / or flesh hooke / or pan. &c. shuld come into the temple / but those only which were sanctifyed / & sette apart for that vse. And in the booke of Numbers / he will haue no other trumpets blowne Numb. 10. 2. to cal y^e people together / but those only which were set apart for y^• purpose. What should the meaning of thys law be? The matter of other common vessels & trum­pets / was the same oftentimes which theirs was / the same forme / also & the other beesomes and hookes / and trumpets hable to serue for the vses of sweeping and [Page 197] sounding. &c. as well as those of the temple / and as those which were set aparte / wherfore mought not these then as well be vsed in the temple as others? For­sothe / because the Lord would by these rudiments and pedagogie teache / that he would haue nothing brought into the church / but that which he had appoynted / no not althoughe they seemed in the iudgement of men / as good as those things which God him selfe had placed there. Which thing is much more to be obserued in this matter / seeing that the homilies red (be they neuer so learned and pithye) neyther the Apochrypha / are to be compared either in goodnes within thēselues / eyther in frute or in effect towardes the hearer / wyth the authenticall scriptures of God. Now / if a man will say that the Homilies do explane & lay open the scrip­tures / Psal. 19. 7. Prou. 1. 4. I answer that the word of God also is plain and easy to be vnderstanded / and such as giueth vnderstanding to idiotes & to the simple. And if there be hard­nes in them / yet the promise of the assistance of Gods spirite / that God hath gi­uen to the reading of the scriptures in the church / whych he hath not giuen to ho­milies / or to the Apochrypha / will be able to weigh wyth the hardnes / and to o­uercome it / so that there shall easely appeare greater profit to come vnto y^e church by reading of the scriptures / then by reading of homilies.

Besides thys / the pollicy of the church of God in times past is to be folow­ed herein / that for the expounding of darker places / places of more easines ought to be ioyned together / as in y^e persecutiō of Antiochus / wher they could not haue the commodity of preaching / the Iewes dyd appoynt at their meetings alwayes a peece of the law to be red / & with all a peece of the prophets whych expounded y^• peece of the lawe / rather then to bring in interpretations of men to be red. And because I am entred into that matter / heere cometh to be considered the practise also of the church both before our sauior Christes comming / and after / that when Actes. 13. 15. Actes. 15. 21. the churches met together / there is nothing mentioned but the reading of y^e scrip­tures / for so is the Lyturgie described in the Actes. And it is not to be thought / but that they had those whych made expositiōs of the law and the prophets. And besydes that / they had Onkelos the Calday paraphrast / bothe Galatine / & Rab­by Moses (surnamed Maymon) write / that Ionathan an nother of the Calday paraphrasts floryshed in oure sauyor Christes tyme / whose wrytings and para­phrases vpon the scryptures / are estemed comparable in that kinde of paraphra­sticall wryting / wyth any whych hath laboured that wayes. And if any mennes wrytings were to be red in the church / those paraphrases whych in explanyng y^e scrypture / go least from it / and whych kepe not only the numbre of sentences / but almost the very numbre of words / were of all most fitte to be red in the churche. Seeing therfore (I say) the church of God then abstained from such interpreta­tions in the church / and contented it selfe wyth the scryptures / it can not be but a moste dangerous attempt / to bryng any thyng into the church to be red besydes the word of God. Thys practise continued still in the churches of God after the apostles times / as may apeare by the second Apologie of Iustin Martyr / which sheweth that theyr manner was to read in the church the monuments of the pro­phets and of the apostles / and if they had red any thyng else / it is to be supposed that he would haue set it downe / consydering that hys purpose there / is to shewe the whole order whych was vsed in their churches then. The same may appear in the first Homilye of Oregine vpon Exodus / and vpon the Iudges. And as for M. Bucers authoritye / I haue shewed before how it ought to be wayghed / & heere also it is suspitious: for that it is sayd that hys aduise was / when the lord should blesse the realme wyth moe learned preachers / that then order should be taken to make more homilyes / whych should be red in the church vnto the peo­ple: As if M. Bucer dyd not know / that there were then learned preachers e­nough in the realme / whych were able to make homilies / so many as the volume of them myght easely haue exceeded the volume of the Byble / if the multytude [Page 198] of homilyes would haue done so much good. And if the authority of M. Bucer beare so great a sway wyth M. Doctor / that vpon hys credite only wythout ey­ther scripture or reason / or examples of the Churches primitiue / or those whych are now / he dare thrust into the church homilies / then the authorities of the most ancient & best councels ought to haue ben considered / whych haue geuen charge / that nothyng should be red in the church / but only the canonicall scriptures. For it was decreed in the councell of Laodicea / y^e nothing shuld be red in the church / 59. can. concil. Laod. Tom. 1. concil. Conc. Valense. 1. Tom. but the canonicall bokes of the olde and newe testament / and reckeneth vp what they be. Afterward as corruptions grew in the church / it was permitted that ho­milies myght be red by the deacon / when the minister was sicke / and coulde not preach / and it was also in an other councel of Carthage permitted / that the mar­tyrs liues might be red in the church. But besides the euill successe that those de­crees had (vnder pretence wherof the popishe legende / and Gregories homilies. &c. crept in) that vse and custome was controlled by other councels / as may ap­peare by the coūcell of Colen / albeit otherwyse popishe. And truely if there were 4. Tom. concil. 6. c. concil. Co­lon. parte. 2. nothing else but thys consideration / that the bringing in of the reading of Mar­tyrs liues into the church / and of the homilies of auncient wryters / hath not on­ly by thys meanes iustled w^t the Bible / but also thrust it cleane out of the church / or into a corner where it was not redde nor seene / it ought to teach all men to be­ware of placing any wryting or worke of men in the church of God / be they ne­uer so well learned / as long as the world should endure.

And if any man obiect / that by thys meanes also is shut out of the churche the forme of ordinary prayers to be sayd: I say the case is nothing lyke / for when we pray we can not vse the words of the scripture / as they orderly lie in the text. But for so muche as the churche prayeth for diuers thyngs necessarye for it / the whych are not contained in one or two places of the scripture / and that also there are some thyngs whych we haue neede of / whereof there is no expresse prayer in the scripture: it is needefull / that there be a forme of Prayer drawne forthe out of the scrypture / whych the church may vse when it meeteth / as the occasyon of the time dothe require / whych necessity can not be by no meanes alledged in the rea­ding of Homilies or Apochrypha. Wherevpon appeareth that it is not so wel or­dained in the churche of Englande / where bothe Homilies and Apochrypha are red / especially when as diuers chapters of the bookes called Apocrypha / are lyf­ted vp so high / that they are sometime appoynted for extraordinary lessons vpon feastes dayes / wherin the greatest assemblies be made / and some of the chapters of the canonicall scripture (as certen chapters of the Apocalipse) quite left oute and not red at all.

Vnto the two next sections I haue answeared before / where I haue entreated of holy dayes / and of kneeling at the Communion / it followeth to speake vnto the section contained in the. 183. and. 184. pages.

ALthough it will be hard for you to proue that thys worde (priest) commeth of the Greke word (presbyteros) yet that is not the matter / but the case stā ­deth in thys / that for so much as the common and vsuall speach of England is / to note by the word (priest) not a minister of the gospel / but a sacrificer (which the minister of the gospell is not) therefore we ought not to call the ministers of the gospell (priests) and that thys is the Englishe speache / it appeareth by all the English translations / whych translate alwayes (hiereis) whych were sacrificers (priests) and do not of the other syde (for any that euer I red) translate presby­teron, a priest. Seeing therfore a priest wyth vs / and in our tonge / dothe signifye both by the papistes iudgement in respect of their abhominable masse / and also by [Page 199] the iudgement of the protestant in respect of the beasts whych were offered in the law / a sacrificing office (whych the minister of the gospell neyther dothe nor can execute) it is manifest / that it can not be wythout great offence so vsed.

The next three sections I haue before answeared / wher I haue spoken of the abuses in baptisme / crossing / and interrogatories / it foloweth to speake vnto the section contained in. 194. 195. &. 196. pa.

IF it be M. Bucers iudgement whych is alledged heere for the ring / I see that sometimes Homere sleapeth. For first of all I haue shewed / that it is not law­full to institute new signes and sacraments / and then it is dangerous to doe it / especially in this whych confirmeth the false and popyshe opinion of a sacrament / as is alledged by the admonition. And thirdly / to make suche fonde allegories of the laying downe of the money / of the roundnes of the ring / and of the mystery of the fourth finger / is (let me speake it wyth hys good leaue) very ridiculous and farre vnlike hym selfe. And fourthly / that he wil haue the minister to preach vp­on these toyes / surely it sauoreth not of the learning and sharpnes of the iudge­ment of M. Bucer. And wheras M. doctor / vpon that s. Peter willeth the hus­bands to geue honor to their wiues / wold approue this manner of speach in ma­trimony (wyth my body I thee worshyp) he must vnderstād that it is one thing wyth vs to worship / and an other thing to honor. For we honor men whych we do not worshyp / and besides that S. Peter speaketh of the honor of the mynde / wherby the husband shuld be moued to beare wyth the infirmities of his wife / & therfore it is vnfitly alleaged / to proue that he may worship her with his body.

As for the receiuing of the Communion when they be marryed / that it is not to be suffered (onles there be a generall receiuing) I haue before at large de­clared / and as for the reason that is fathered of M. Bucer / (whych is / that those that be Christians / maye not be ioyned in maryage / but in Christe.) It is verye slender and cold / as if the sacrament of the supper were instituted to declare any such thyng / or they could not declare their ioyning togither in Christ by no mea­nes / but by receyuing the supper of the Lorde.

To the next section in the. 197. page.

TEll me M. doctor why there should be any such confirmation in the church / being brought in by the fained Decretall Epistles of the Popes / and no one tittle therof being once found in the scrypture / and seeing that it hath bene so horribly abused / and not necessary / why ought it not to be vtterly abolyshed? and thirdly / thys confirmation hath very dangerous poynts in it. The first steppe of popery in thys confirmation / is the laying on of hands vpon the head of y^e childe / wherby the opinion of it / that it is a sacrament is confirmed / especially when as the prayer dothe saye / that it is done according to the example of the Apostles / whych is a manifest vntruthe / and taken in deede from the popish confirmation. The seconde is / for that the byshop (as he is called) must be the only minister of it / wherby the popishe opinion whych esteemeth it aboue baptisme is confirmed. For whilest baptisme may be ministred of the minister / and not cōfirmation / but only of the byshop / there is great cause of suspition geuen to thinke / that baptisme is not so precious a thing as confirmation: seeing thys was one of the principall reasons / wherby that wicked opinion was establyshed in popery. I do not heere speake of the inconuenience / that mē are constrained with charges / to bryng their childrē oftentimes halfe a score miles for that (which if it were nedeful) might be as wel done at home in their owne parishes. The thirde is / for y^• [...] the allegation of the seconde cause of the vsing of the confirmation / the boke sayeth / that by the [Page 200] imposition of hands and prayer / the chyldren may receyue strengthe and defence agaynst all temptations / whereas there is no promyse / that by the laying on of hands vpon chyldren / any suche gyfte shall be geuen / and it maintayneth the po­pyshe distinction / that the spirite of God is geuen at baptisme vnto the remissyon of synnes / and in confirmation vnto strength / the whych very worde (strength) the booke alledgeth / and all thys M. Doctor confuteth by callyng of the authors Lomb. lib. 4. Diuis. 7. of the admonition peeuish and arrogant.

To the next section contained in the. 198. 199. 200. 201. pages.

LEast M. Doctor (as hys common fashyon is when the corruption of anye thyng is spoken agaynst) say that we condemne buryall / I would haue hym vnderstand / that we hold that the body must be honestly and comely buried / and that it is mete / that for that cause some reasonable numbre of those whych be the frends and neyghbors about / should accompany the corps to the place of bu­ryall. We hold it also lawfull to lament the dead / and if the dignity of the persone so require / we thynke it not vnlawfull to vse some way about y^e buriall / wherby that may appeare / but yet so / that there be a measure kepte bothe in the weepyng and in the charges / consydering that whereas immoderate eyther weepyng or pompe was neuer / no not in the tyme of the lawe allowed / nowe in the time of the gospell / all that is not lawfull / whych was permitted in the time of the law. For vnto the people of God vnder the law / weeping was by so much more permitted vnto them / then vnto vs / by howe muche they had not so cleare a reuelation and plaine syght of the resurrection as we haue / whych was y^• cause also why it was lawfull for them to vse more cost in the embaulmyng of the dead / therby to nou­ryshe and to helpe their hope touchyng the resurrection / wherof we haue a grea­ter pledge by the resurrection of our sauyor Christ / then they had. Nowe for the thyngs whych the admonition findeth fault wyth / and thereof bryngeth reason / M. Doctor of hys bare credite wythout any reason or scrypture / or any thyng els / commendeth them vnto vs / & sayeth they be good. And thys you shall marke to be M. doctors symple shyft throughoute hys booke / that when he hath no co­loure of scripture / nor of reason / no name nor title of doctor / thē to make vp some thyng / he varyeth hys affirmation by all the figures he can / as in saying simplye that it is so / and then in askyng whether it be not so / and after in askyng whether there is any other man will thynke that it is not so / as if the woulde make vs be­leeue / that he setteth vs dyuers kindes of meates / because he bryngeth the same in dyuers dyshes. For besydes these reasons / he hathe no reason / eyther to proue that it is meete to haue prescript forme of seruice for the dead / or that the minister should be drawne to thys charge. Surely if the order be so good and conuenient / it hath met w^t a very barren patron / whych can say nothing for it. And although there be enough sayd by the admonition / yet because thys bold and hardy speache is enough to lead the simpler away / & to make them thinke that M. doctor hathe a good cause / therfore I wil also say somthyng of these rites of buryal.

And first of all / as thys almost is a generall fault in them all / y^t they main­tayne in the mindes of the ignorant the opinion of praying for the dead: so is thys also a nother general fault / y^t these ceremonyes are taken vp w^tout any example / either of the churches vnder the law / or of the purest churches vnder the gospel / that is / of the churches in the apostles times. For when the scripture descrybeth the ceremonies or rites of buryall amongste the people of God so dilygently / that it maketh mention of the smallest thyngs / there is no doubte but the holy Ghoste doth therby shew vs a paterne / wherevnto we should also frame oure buryalles. And therfore for so much as neyther the church vnder the law nor vnder the gos­pell / when it was in the greatest puritye / dyd euer vse any prescript forme of ser­uice [Page 201] in the buryall of theyr dead / it coulde not be but daungerous / to take vp any such custome / & in the tyme of the lawe it was not only not vsed / but vtterly for­bidden. For when the law did forbyd that the priest should not be at the buryall / Leu. 21. 1. 11. which ought to say or conceiue the prayers there / it is cleare y^• the Iewes might not haue any such prescript form. And yet they had most nede of it / for the causes of obscure knowledge / & weaker fayth before alledged. Againe / by thys meanes a newe charge is layd vpon the minister / and a taking hym away from his necessa­ry dueties of feeding and gouerning the flocke / whych being so great as a mar­uellous diligence will scarcely ouercome / oughte not to be made greater by thys / being a thyng so vnnecessary. The Admonition dothe not say that the Prayers whych are sayd / are for the dead / but that they maintaine an opinion of prayer for the deade in the heartes of the simple / and that they declare manifestly enoughe / when they say that it may be partly gathered. &c.

For the mournyng apparell / the admonition sayeth not simply it is euill be­cause it is done of custome / but proueth that it is hypocritical oftētimes / for that it proceedeth not from any sadnes of minde / whych it dothe pretende / but worne only of custome / there being vnder a mourning gowne of tentimes a mery heart. And considering that where there is sorow in deede for the dead / there it is very hard for a man to kepe a measure that he do not lament too much: We ought not to vse those meanes whereby we myght be further prouoked to sorow / and so go a great way beyonde the measure / whych the apostle apoynteth in mournyng / no 1. Thes. 4. 13. Math. 9. 23. more then it was well done of the Iewes in the gospell to prouoke weping & so­rowe for their deade by some dolfull noise or sounde of instrument / or then it was lawfull for Mary Lazarus sister to goe to her brothers graue / thereby to set the Iohn. 11. 31. print of her sorow deper in her minde. Seing therefore if there be no sorowe / it is hypocritical to pretend it / and if there be / it is very dangerous to prouoke it / or to cary the notes of remēbrance of it / it appeareth that this vse of mourning apparel were much better layed away then kept. And here M. doctor threps a litle kind­nes of the authors of the admonition / & sayth that they know it is very ancient / whom before he denyeth to haue any knowledge of antiquity. In dede it is very ancient / but M. doctor is afraid to shew the ancienty of it / for Cyp. and Aug. in­ueigh Cypr. 4. serm. de mortalitate. Aug. lib. 2. de consolar. mor­tuorum. vehemently agaynst it / condemnyng it as vnlawfull and vndecent.

Nowe touching the funerall sermons M. doctor taketh on / & tryumpheth maruellously / as though he had already gotten the victorye: but he that girdeth hys harnes / should not boast as he that putteth it of. There is more matter then peraduenture M. doctor is aware of / & that whych is set downe / he answeareth not: as that it norysheth an opinion that the dead are the better for it / whych doth appeare in y^e there are none more desirous of funerall sermons / then the papists / whych although they can not abide the doctrine whych is preached / yet they wil haue suche sermons / and those whych will very seldome / or not at all / be at other sermons / will not commonly misse one of these. Furthermore / for so much as the minyster is driuen oftentimes by this meanes to preach vpon a sodaine / the word of God therby is negligently handled / especially of those whose gyftes are not so great / as that they can prouide in so small time / and by thys neglygent handlyng of the word of God / it is brought into contempt.

Moreouer / consydering that these funerall sermons are at the request of rych men / and those whych are in authoritye / and are very seldome at the buryall of the pore / there is brought into the church (contrary to the word of God) an ac­ceptation of persons / which ought not to be. For although the minister may giue to one more honor then to an other / accordyng as the callyng or degree requireth / yet in hys mynistery / & that whych pertaineth vnto hys office / he ought to shew hymselfe indifferent / and therfore preach as wel at the death of the pore / as of the rych: and because he can not well do both / it is most conuenient to leaue both. If [Page 202] so be that M. doctor wyl say / that it is good that notable and famous men shuld haue their commendation / to the ende that bothe the goodnes of God towardes them / myght be the better knowne / and others the soner drawne to followe theyr example: I graunt it is so / and the scrypture dothe bothe approue it / and sheweth what meane is best to doe that by. For so we read that Ieremy the prophet com­mended that godly and zealous prince Iosias / in wryting verses of hys deathe. 2. Chro. 35. 25 He could haue as easely preached / but thys he thought the best way. So did also Dauid wryte verses at the death of Saul / and Ionathan and Abner / in whych 2. Sa. 1. 17. &c. 2. Sa. 3. 33. &c he commendeth their gyfts and graces whych the Lord had bestowed vpon thē. There were in deede of ancient time funerall orations / as appeareth in Gregory Nazianzen / but they sauoured of the manner of Athens / where he was brought vp: where also thys custome of funerall orations was vsed / as may be seene in the second boke of Thucydydes story by an oration of Pericles. And althoughe thys custome was not in Nazianzeus time / so corrupt as afterwardes: yet the departing from the examples of the purer churches / gaue occasion of further cor­ruption whych ensued. And to say the truth / it was better vsed amongst the A­thenians / then amongst the christians. For there it was merely ciuill / and the o­ration at the death of some notable personage / made / not by a minister / but by an Orator appoynted therfore: whych I thinke may well be done. And if M. doc­tor will say / that there myght be sermones / although they be not mentioned ney­ther in the old testament nor in the new: I haue answered before / that seeing the holy ghost doth describe so dilygently the least circumstances of burial / he would not haue omitted that / being the greatest. And let it be obserued / that thys deuise of mannes braine bryngeth forth the same frute that other do / y^e is / dryueth quite away a necessary duety of the minister / whych is / to comfort wyth the worde of God / the parties whych be greued at the death of their frends / that consideryng the sore is perticular / he apply vnto it a perticular plaister whych is very seldome or neuer done / and yet a necessary duety / as of a good christian / so especially of the minister / whych can best do it / and to whome it most appertaineth. And whereas M. doctor asketh / when there is a better time to speake of death and of mortality then at buryall / surely if it had ben so fit / the Prophets and apostles would neuer haue lost that oportunity / or let pas that occasion of aduancing and making effec­tuall their preaching. What if it be answered / that for as muche as oure lyfe is a continuall meditation of death / it is not salfe to vse thys custome / for that it tyeth our cogitation to so short a tyme as the tyme of buryall is / which ought to be ex­tended to the whole course of our lyfe. But I answere / that it may be well done wythout any such funerall sermons when the minister taketh occasion of y^e death of any whych is lately departed / to speake of the vanity of y^e life of man. Whether M. doctor lyketh the reformation or no / so it is in the church where M. Caluin was pastor / & hath ben for these many yeres. And although the Englishe church in Geneua had that in the boke of common prayer / yet (as I haue heard of those whych were there present) it was not so vsed. And if it had bene / yet therby it is not proued that M. Caluin allowed of it. For wyth thyngs wherin ther was no great and manifest disorder / M. Caluin dyd beare that whych he lyked not of. And there being no papists in all the city / and al being wel instructed / there was no such danger in a funerall sermon there / as is here amongst vs / where there is many papists / and mo ignorant. I will say nothyng of the great abuse of those / whych hauing otherwyse to lyue on of the church / take nobles for euery such ser­mon / and sometime a mourning gowne / whych causeth the papistes to open their mouthes wide / and to say / that the marchandise of sermons is much dearer then of the masse: for that they might haue for a grote or six pence / and the sermon they cannot haue vnder a roūder sum. That must be remembred whych I had almost forgotten / howe vntruely and slaunderously M. doctor sayth / that the authors of [Page 203] the admonition do compare y^e sermon wyth a trentall or a masse. For whē I say in stead of the masse we haue the holy Communion / doe I compare / or lyken the communion to the masse? and yet this is M. doctors charitable collection / which gathereth thyngs whych no man letteth fall. Touching the place of buryall / I haue spoken before. And although it be not to be mislyked / that there should be a cōmon place to bury in / yet the places whych M. doctor poynteth vs vnto / proue the cleane contrary. For by the story of Abrahams place of buryall / it appeareth that the manner was that euery one was buryed in hys owne seuerall groūd / as may appeare also by that that the euangelist sayth / that there was a field bought Math. 27. 7. to bury the strangers in / whych had no place of their owne / whych was also vsed sometimes in the churches vnder the gospell / as appeareth by the story of Theo­doret / whych I haue before recited / & in the later end of a funeral oratien / which Gregory Nazianzene made of the death of hys brother Cesarius. And so by this reason M. doctor wold haue euery one buryed in hys owne possession.

To the next section I haue answeared before / where I haue entreated of churchyng women / and of prayer / it foloweth to speake vnto that / in the. 205. and. 206. pa.

TO pas by the prophane prouerbe here vsed / which matcheth mad men & wo­men / & children togither / most vnsemely for a D. of diuinity / especially hand­ling diuine matters: for the singing of psalmes by course / and side after side / although it be very auncient / yet it is not commēdable / and so much the more to be suspected / for that the deuil hath gone about to get it so great authority / partly Socrat. 6. lib. 8. cap. Platina cap. Damas. Theodo. 2. lib. 24. cap. by deriuing it from Ignatius time / and partly in making the world beleue / that thys came from heauen / and that the angels were heard to sing after thys sorte / whych as it is a mere fable / so is it confuted by hystoriographers / whereof some ascribe the begynning of thys to Damasus / some other vnto Flauianus & Dio­dorus. Frō whēce so euer it came / it can not be good / considering that when it is graūted y^• all the people may praise God (as it is in singing of psalmes) there this ought not to be restrained vnto a few / & wher it is lawful both w^t hart and voyce to sing the whole psalme / there it is not mete y^t they should sing but the one halfe wyth their heart and voice / and the other with their heart only. For where they may both wyth heart and voice sing / there the heart is not enough. Therfore be­sides the incommodity whych commeth thys way / in that being tossed after thys sort / men can not vnderstande what is song / these other two inconueniences come of thys forme of singing / and therfore is banyshed in all reformed churches.

Vnto two very good reasons whych the admonition vseth / to shewe the in­connenience of making curtesy / and stāding at the name of Iesus / and at the gos­pell / rather then at other names of God / and the rest of the scripture: wherof the one is / that it is against decencye and good order whych is broken by scraping of the feete / and the other y^• it may brede a dangerous opinion of the inequality either of the sonne of God with the other persons / or of the gospels w^t other scriptures / M. doctor sayth y^• it is an indifferent thyng / and neyther taketh away their rea­sons / nor setteth down any of hys own: thys is a slēder defence. And it is no ma­licious dealing / to note those faults whych are so generall & so open / & yet notw^t ­standing vncorrected or vnreformed by those / by whom M. d. wold make vs be­leue / y^t the church is best gouerned. But I pray you tel me / why do you cōdemn the seruing of two cures / y^e alow the hauing of two benefices? If it be no fault to haue two benefices / how is it one to haue two cures? for y^e curate is better able to read hys seruice in .ij. places / thē the pastor to discharge his office in .ij. churches. As for y^e speche of y^e cathedral churches / either it is nothing / or els it is fals. For if he say y^• ther is either in al those cathedral churches one / or in euery of those. 12. churches one / which is able to cōfute papists. &c. what great thing saith he / which [Page 204] sayeth no more of all these churches / then is to be found in one poore house of the vniuersity / whose rents are skarce three hundred pound by yeare? yea what hath he sayd of them whych was not to be founde in them euen in Queenes Maryes tyme / when there was yet some one almoste in euerye Churche / whych for feare dissemblyng / was able notwythstanding to confute the Papistes / Anabaptistes / Puritanes. And if he meane that in those .xij. houses / the worst of the Preben­daries are hable to defend the truth agaynst all Papists. &c. all men do know the vntruthe of it / so that althoughe thys sentence be very doubtfully put forthe / yet how so euer it be taken / it is as M. Doctor hath ryghtly termed it / a mere brag. And yet I doubt not / and am well assured / that there be diuers godly learned men whych haue lyuings in those places / but for all that they cease not therefore to be dennes of loyterors and idle persones / whylest there are nouryshed there some whych serue for no profitable vse in the church (their offyces being suche as bryng no commoditye / but rather hurte / of whych numbre certen are whych the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page:) some other which hauing charges in other places vnder the coloure of their prebendes there / absent them selues from them: and that whych they spoyle and rauen in other places / there they spend and make good cheare wyth / and therfore not wythout good cause called dennes. Fi­nally / there being nothyng there / whych might not be much better applied / and to the greater commodity of the churche / whylest they myght be turned into colled­ges / where yong men myght be brought vp in good learning / & made fitte for the seruice of the church and common wealthe / the vniuersities being not able to re­ceyue that numbre of scholers / wherwyth their neede may be supplyed.

And where M. Doctor sayth / that that whych is spoken of the Queenes maiestyes chappell / is worthy rather to be punyshed then confuted: if so be that these be abuses / the example of them in her maiesties chappell / can not be but most daungerous / whych wyth all humble submission and reuerence / I beseeche her maiesty duely to consider.

And as for the reasons which M. doctor bringeth to establishe them in the 225. page / as that they are necessary (whych he doth barely say) and that s. Aug. alloweth of a Deane / and that the authors of the Admonition are instruments of those whych desire the spoile of them / and that a man may as well speake against vniuersities & colledges / as against them / I haue answeared before / sauing that it is to be feared / that colledges in vniuersities (if M. doctor may worke y^• which he goeth about) wil shortly be in little better case / then those cathedral churches / whych not only by hys own example / but wyth might and maine / and al endeuor possyble / goeth about to fill and fraught them wyth Non residences, and suche as haue charges of churches in other places: whych do no good in the vniuersitye / and partly are such as can do none / only are pernicious examples of riotous fea­sting and making greate cheare / wyth the prayes and spoyles whych they bryng out of the country to the great hurt of the vniuersity presently / and vtter ruine of it hereafter / onles spedy remedy be therfore prouided. And wher he sayth it is not material / although these deanes / vicedeanes / canons / peticanōs / prebēdaries. &c. come from the pope / it is as if he shoulde saye / that it skilleth not although they come out of the bottomles pit. For whatsoeuer commeth from the Pope which is Antichrist / commeth first from the deuill: and where he addeth thys conditi­on (if it be good. &c.) in deede if of the egges of a cockatrice can be made holesome meate to feede with / or of a spiders webbe any cloth to couer with all / then also may the things that come from the Pope and the Deuill / be good / profitable / and necessary vnto the church. And where he sayeth that collegiate churches are of great auncientie / he proueth not the auncientie of the cathedrall churches / onles he proue that cathedrall and collegiate be all one. But I will not sticke wyth hym for so small a matter / & if our controuersy were of the names of these chur­ches [Page 205] / and not of the matter / I could be content to graunt hys cause in this poynt as good as antiquitie without the word of God (which is nothing but rotten­nes) could make it. But for so much as those auncient collegiate churches were no more lyke vnto these which we haue now / then things most vnlyke: our ca­thedrall churches haue not so much as thys olde worne cloke of antiquity / to hide theyr nakednes / and to keepe out the shoure. For the collegiate churches in times past were a senate Ecclesiasticall / standing of godly learned mynisters & elders / which gouerned and watched ouer that flocke which was in the citie or towne where suche churches were / and for that in suche great cities and townes com­monly there were the most learned pastors and auncientes / therefore the townes and villages rounde about in hard and difficult causes / came and had their reso­lutions of theyr doubtes at theyr handes: euen as also the Lord commaunded in Deuteronomie / that when there was any great matter in the countrey / which Deut. 17. 8. 9. the Leuites in matters pertayning to God / and the Iudges in matters pertay­ning to the common wealth / could not discusse / that then they should come to Ie­rusalem / where there was a great numbre of Priestes / Leuites / and learned Iudges / of whome they should haue their questions dissolued / and thys was the first vse of collegiate churches. Afterward the honor which the smaller churches gaue vnto them / in asking them counsell / they tooke vnto them selues / and that which they had by the curtesy and good will proceeding of a reuerent estimation of them / they dyd not only take vnto them of right / but also possessed them of all authority of hearing and determyning any matters at all. And in the ende they came to thys which they are now / which is a company that haue strange names and strange offyces / vnhearde of of all the purer churches / of whome the greatest good that wee can hope of is / that they doe no harme. For although there be dy­uers which doe good / yet in respect that they bee Deanes / Prebendaries / Ca­nons / Petycanons. &c. for my part / I see no profite but hurte come to the church by them.

And where hee sayeth they are rewardes of learning / in deede then they should be / if they were conuerted vnto the mayntenance and bringing vp of scho­lers / where now for the most part / they serue for fat morsels to fill (if it might be) the gredy appetites of those / which otherwyse haue enough to lyue with / and for holes and dennes to keepe them in / which eyther are vnworthy to be kept at the charge of the church / or else whose presence is necessary and duetifull in other pla­ces / and for the most part vnprofitable there.

Last of all / whereas M. Doctor sayeth that we haue not to follow other churches / but rather other churches to follow vs / I haue answeared before / thys only I adde / y^• they were not counted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctryne / but those which made the people of God beleeue / that they were happy when they were not / and that their estate was very good / when it was corrupt. Of the which kynde of false prophecie / Ieremy especially doth complayne. And Iere. 6. 14. Iere. 8. 11. therefore onles M. Doctor amend hys speach / & leaue thys crying peace / peace / all is wel / when there are so many things out of order / and that not by the iudge­ment of y^e admonition & fauorers therof only / but euē of al which are not willing­ly blind / I say if he do not amend these speches / the crime of false prophesy will sit closer vnto him / thē he shalbe euer able to shake of / in the terrible day of the lord.

The next section I haue answeared in the treatise of the archbyshops / it fol­loweth to speake vnto the remnant of that section which is contayned in the. 214. 215. 216. 217. 218. pages / for vnto a part therof which is comprehended in the. 213. and a peece of the. 214. page / I haue answeared in the same treatise of the Archbyshops.

THe places alledged by the Admonition to proue that mynisters of the church may not intermeddle with ciuill functions (one only excepted) are well and fitly alledged: and most of them vsed to that ende of wryters / which if I should name / all would confesse / that they are such / as with whome M. Doctor is not worthy to be so much as spoken of the same day.

For the first place / if so be that the mynister ought rather to leaue necessary 9. Luk. 60. 61 dueties of burying hys father / & saluting hys frends vndone / then that he shoulde not accomplysh hys ministery to the full: much more he ought not to take vpon hym those thinges / which are not only not necessary dueties / but as it shall ap­peare / doe in no case belong vnto hym. And although it may be applyed to all Chrystians / yet it doth most properly belong vnto the mynisters. And as for the other place of Luke / touching our sauyoure Chrystes refusall to deuide the 12. Luke. 14. inheritaunce betweene the brethren / it is moste aptly alledged to thys purpose. For althoughe our sauioure Christe doth not there take away from men / autho­ritie to iudge / yet hee sheweth thereby sufficiently / that it belongeth not vnto the ministers of the worde / to intermeddle in the iudgement of cyuil causes. For our sauioure Christ framed that answere / hauing respect to the boundes of his calling.

For as he being a Minister of the Gospell / dyd all those things which were pertayning to hys mynistery: So by refusing thys office of iudgement in cyuill causes / he gaue to vnderstand that it did not appertayne vnto the compasse of that office / which he exercised / which was the ministery. And therfore it is altogether out of season that M. D. here alledgeth / that the Anabaptistes vse thys reason to proue that christians may not haue magistrates. For how doth thys follow / that because thys place of S. Luke proueth not / that we ought to haue no christi­an magistrates: that therfore it proueth not / that the minister should be no magi­strate / as if there coulde bee no ciuill magistrates / onlesse ministers of the worde were.

And the place which he alledgeth out of the learned man / doth not only not make any thing for hym / but doth quite ouerthrow hys cause. For he sayeth that our sauiour Christ dyd not refuse thys as a thing in it selfe vnlawfull / but because it dyd not agree with hys vocation. Now the vocation of our sauiour Christ / was to be a mynister of the gospell / therefore it doth not agree with the vocation of a mynister of the gospell to iudge or to entermeddle in cyuill gouernment. And if M. Doctor had bene so studious of M. Caluins works / as by hys often al­legation of hym / he woulde make the world beleue / he might haue * red in hym 4. li. Inst. 11. cap. thys sentence cited for thys purpose / to proue that the ministers haue not to doe with ciuill things. Furthermore M. D. asketh what S. Paules place to the Romanes (where he willeth that he which hath an office / must waite of that of­fice 12. Rom. 7. he that teacheth of his teaching) maketh to thys purpose. Surely M. Doc. very much. Neither can there be a place more properly alledged / both for the very playnes of the words / & also for the circumstāce of the place. For S. Paule spea­keth there agaynst those / which would ouerreach their callings / & hauing certeine callings / contented not them selues with them / but woulde haue an ore in euery mans boate / and would take more vpon them then they were able to doe / or the measure of theyr giftes would stretch vnto. And therefore sheweth / that as the body is best preserued when euery member thereof doth hys office / and destroyed when one member will take vpon it to do the office of an other: so the church is then best gouerned / when euery Ecclesiasticall person keepeth hym selfe within the limits of hys calling / not medling with that which pertayneth vnto an other. But M. Doctor sayeth that the byshoppe gouerneth as well by disciplyne as by preaching: so he doth. But I pray you by what dysciplyne? what a reason is thys / he gouerneth by discipline / ergo, by ciuill disciplyne. You say in the next sen­tence [Page 207] that the authors of the admonition either dote or dreame: But if these be your sharpe disputations / when you are awake? surely they are very blunt when you dreame. But I had rather iudge the best / that Maister Doctor was ouer-watched.

The last place which is alledged by the admonition / is out of the epistle to Tim. 2. Epist. 2. 4. where it sheweth / that for so much as the estate of a minister / is as that of a soul­dier / & therfore as the souldyer / to the end he myght the better please hys captaine / & doe hys seruice of warfare / quitteth all those things which he loueth / & where­of otherwyse he might haue care / and might enioy: euen so the mynister ought to dispatch hym selfe of all those things which may be any let to the office of hys my­nistery / although he might otherwise lawfully vse thē. And if so be for the perfor­ming of y^e ministery to the full / he must quite those things which he may lawfully vse / how much more might the admonition conclude that he ought not to entan­gle himselfe with those things / which (out of the places of S. Luke / and to the Romaines) it had shewed to be vnlawfull for hym to meddle with? And although M. D. say the sentence be generall / yet it is particularly ment / and most properly of the mynisters / which Maister Caluin teacheth M. Doctor in the same place / where he hath cited hys authoritie twise to no purpose. For what although M. Caluin doe not there apply in prescript words thys sentence to proue that myni­sters ought not to meddle with cyuill offices / doth it follow therefore that thys place can not be vsed thereto? In saying that he ought to abstayne from all lets which may hinder his vocation & ministery / he doth cōsequently say / that he ought to abstayne from all ciuill offices. And if so be M. Doct. had bene so well red in the auncient doctors (as he would seeme) he might haue knowen that thys place is vsed of * Cyprian / to the same purpose that it is alledged heere. For Cyprian 9. ep. 1. lib. e. speaking agaynst an elder which had taken vpon him to be executor to one which was dead / alledgeth thys place. To these reasons of the admonition / may be ad­ded that which the admonition hath in the. 230. page / that the regiment of the church is spirituall / and respecteth the conscience / & therefore hath not to do with ciuill offices / which respect properly the common wealth / and the outward godly honest / and quiet behauior. And therefore their meaning is ▪ that as the ciuill go­uernor doth vse such kinde of punishment as may bridle the outward man / & hold hym / that he dare not offende in the open breache of that godlynes / honesty and quietnes which Saynt Paule commendeth vnto vs: so the Ecclesiasticall re­gyment 1. Tim. 2. 2. doth vse that kynde of dysciplyne / whereby the consience and inwarde man may bee kept in that willing obedyence vnto Gods commaundement tou­ching a godlye honest and quyet lyfe. And to note the distinction of these regy­mentes cyuill and spirituall / the place vnto the Thessalonyans is well alledged: 1. Thes. 5. 12. for by the wordes (suche as rule ouer you in the Lord) the Apostle doth putte a difference beetweene the cyuill and ecclesiasticall regymente. For albeit that godlye cyuill magistrates doe rule ouer vs in the Lorde / yet Saynt Paule catexochen that is / by excellencye / ascrybeth that vnto the Ecclesiasticall go­uernoures / because that whereas the cyuill magistrate besyde hys care for the saluation of the soules of hys people / is occupyed in procuring also the wealth and quyetnes of thys lyfe: the Ecclesiasticall gouernors haue all their whole care set vpon that only ▪ which perteyneth to the lyfe to come. And to thys end also is al­ledged by the admonition / the place of Tim. wherein the apostle teacheth part of the ecclesiasticall dysciplyne which the mynister may vse / to consist in reprehensi­ons and rebukes / which must be tempered according as the estate and age of e­uery one doth require. Theyr meaning is not (as M. Doctor vntruely surmy­seth) to shut out the cyuill magistrate / or to debar hym of punishing the wicked / but that it appertayneth not vnto the mynisters to deale that wayes / whose cor­rection of faultes lyeth partly in reprehensions and admonitions / which he spea­keth [Page 208] of there / partly in excommunication / wherof is spoken before. Further tou­ching the place of the Ephesians / for so much as our sauior Christ as he is head of hys church / is the spirituall gouernor thereof / it is meete that their gouerne­ment which are appoynted vnderneath hym / as he is head / shoulde be lykewise spirituall / as hys is. For as for the cyuill magistrate / although hee be appoynted of Christ (as he is God) in which respect there is none aboue Christ / yet hee is not appoynted of hym / in respect that he is head of the church / in regarde wherof / God is aboue Christ / and as the apostle sayeth / the head of hym. 1. Cor. 11. 3.

Now that I haue shewed that the places quoted by the admonition / are for y^e most part to the purpose of that they be quoted for / I wil adde a reason or two to thys pourpose / before I come to answer to those reasons which are brought by M. Doctor. Here I must desire the reader to remember (which I sayde before / when I spake agaynst non residencie) the multitude & difficultie of those things which are required of the mynister of the word of God. And with all I wil leaue to the consyderation of euery one / the great infirmitie and weakenes which is in men / both the which consyderations set together / it will easely appeare how vn­meete a thing it is / that the mynister shoulde haue any other charge layde vppon hym / seeing that it being so wayghty an office / as will require all the gyftes he hath / be they neuer so great / it must needes fall out / that so much as he doth in an other calling / so much he leaueth vndone in thys. And what the hand of man is able to reach herein / it is to be considered in the apostles / whome if the office of the mynistery dyd so wholy occupy and set a worke / that they could admyt no o­ther charge with it / yea / & were fayne to cast of that which they had / it is cleare that none of those which lyue now / can besyde that function / admytte any other publyke calling. The story is knowen in the Actes / that the apostles euen du­ring 6. Actes. 2. the tyme that they kept together at Ierusalem / and taught the church there / were fayne / that they might the better attend vnto preaching and praying / (by which two things S. Luke summarely setteth forth the office of the mynistery) to geue ouer the charge of prouiding for the poore vnto others / because they were not hable to doe both. Now for so much as the Apostles endued with such giftes as none haue bene since / or shalbe hereafter / coulde not discharge together with the office of the mynister that also of the deacon / how should any man be founde / that together with that office / can discharge the office of a ciuill magistrate? And if the Apostles would not haue the office of a Deacon / which was ecclesiasticall / and therefore of the same kynde with the mynistery ioyned vnto it / how much lesse will they suffer that the mynistery should be ioyned with a ciuill office / and there­fore of an other kynde? For reason teacheth that there is an easyer mingling of those which are of one kynd / then of those which are of dyuers kyndes. Agayne / how can we iustly reproue the papistes for the vse of both the swordes / spirituall / and materiall / when as we are found in the same fault our selues? And surely howsoeuer long custome hath caused it to seme / yet in deede it is a very great and vntollerable confusion / which may be the easelyer vnderstanded / if so be we set before our eyes / how vncomely and disordered it is / in the lyke / or rather in the ve­ry same case. For let vs imagine the Mayor or Baylife of a towne / or the King or Emperor of the lande / to come into the pulpet / and make a sermon / afterwarde to mynister the Sacramentes / and from the Church to goe with the scepter in hys hand vnto the place of iudgement: who would not be amased to see this / and wonder at it / as at a straunge and monstrous sight? assuredly the selfe same de­formity it is / when as the Mynister of the word / is made a Iustice of peace / of Quorum / a Commyssioner / an Earle / or any such lyke / to whome the iudgement of matters pertayning to the courte of the ciuill Magistrate is committed: espe­cially seeing there are (God be praysed) of the Nobilitie and gentry of the realme / that are able to discharge these offices much better / then these Ecclesiasticall per­sones [Page 209] to whome they are committed. And if so be that there fall out any questi­on at any tyme which is to be decided by the word of God / and wherein the ad­uise of the mynister is needefull / there the mynisters helpe / may / and ought to bee required. For thereof we haue not only an example in Esra / where the Princes in a matter of difficultie / came & asked the counsell of Esra / but we haue a plaine Esra. 9. 1. De. 19. 17. 18. commaundement in Moses by the Lord▪ who commaunded that the cause of per­tury should be heard before the Lord in the sanctuary / at the hearing wherof the high priest shuld be present / by which commaundement the Lord doth not (by bringing thys cause into the sanctuary) declare / that the iudgement therof dyd ap­pertayne vnto the Ecclesiasticall court / but because it being a matter which tou­ched the glory of God very expresly / hee woulde haue the Princes which were iudges there / to be the nearer touched / and the depelyer affected with the glory of God / whereof they saw the sacrament before theyr eyes. Neyther is the hyghe priest commaunded to be present to thys ende / that he should sitte as iudge of that matter / but that he might dissolue the difficulties / if any rose of the vnderstanding of the law / and that hee myght pricke forward and styre vp by admonition / the Princes to whome the iudgement appertayned / if so bee he should see them colde & slacke to reuenge the iniury done vnto the Lorde. Which thing may the better appeare / in y^t the handling of the matter / is there appoynted not vnto the priestes / but vnto the iudges or princes only / and so lykewyse of matrimony and diuorse / although the iudgement thereof appertayne vnto the ciuill magistrate / yet the mi­nister if there be any difficulty in knowing when it is a lawfull contract / & when the dyuorse is lawfull / maye and ought to bee consulted wyth. Thus may the common wealth and church enioy both the wysedome & learning which is in the mynister / & things may bee done in that order which God hath appoynted / with­out suche confounding and iombling of offyces and iurisdictions together. For although Aristotles obeliscolychnion, and Platoes dorydrepanon, that is / instru­mentes seruing to two purposes / bee lawfull in offyces of the common wealth / where things are more free / and left in greater liberty to bee ordered at the iudge­ment and aduise of men / especially consydering that vppon the diuersitye of the formes of common wealthes / varietie of regiment may spring: yet in the church of God where things are brought to a strayghter rule / and which is but one and vniforme / the same may not bee suffered. And yet euen those cōmon wealth Phi­losophers which doe lycence vpon occasion that two offices may meete in one man / holde that it is best and conuenientest / that euery one shoulde haue a par­ticulare charge. For Aristotle sayeth that it is most agreeable to nature / that hen shoulde be pros hen, that is / one instrument to one vse. And Plato vseth the Not Hercules hymselfe a­gaynst two. prouerbe mede heracleis pros duo, against those which wil take vpon them diuers vocations / and not content them selues with one / so that they make the meting of many functions in one man / to be a remedy only in extreme neede & pouerty of a­ble men. And although both be vnlawfull / yet as the case standeth in our realme / it is more tellerable that the ciuill magistrate should doe the office of a minister / then that the minister shuld intermeddle with the function of the magistrate. For when the accountes shall be cast / it will fall out / that there are more sufficient & able men to serue in the common wealth of thys realme / then in the churche / and greater wante in the one then in the other. And if besyde thys / both authoritie of the werd of God and lyght of reason / wee will looke vnto the practise of the church many yeares after the time of the Apostles / we shall finde that the church hath bene very carefull from time to time / that thys order should bee kept / that the ministers shuld not entangle them selues with any thing beside their ministe­ry / and those things which the word of God doth necessaryly put vpon them / le [...]st the strength of their minde & of their body / being distracted vnto many thinges / they should be the lesse able to accomplishe their ministery vnto the full. Which [Page 210] may also partly appeare by that which I haue alledged out of Cyprian / which will not permit them so much as to bee executors of a Testament. And in one of the Canons whiche are ascribed vnto the Apostles it is enioyned that they Can. Apofl. 80. should not entangle them selues with worldly offices / but attend vpon their Ec­clesiasticall affaires.

Further / in the councell of Calcedon it was decreed / that none of the Tom. 2. con. Calced. can. 3. clearkes or cleargie (as it termeth them) shoulde receiue any charge of those which are vnder age / vnlesse they were suche as the lawes dyd necessarily cast vpon hym / which it calleth inexcusable charges / meaning by all lykelyhoode / the wardshyp of hys brothers children or some suche thing. Where is also declared the cause of that decree to haue beene / for that there were certeine mynisters which were stewardes to noble men. And in the. 7. canon of the same councell it is decreed / that none of the cleargy should either goe to warfare as souldyers or captaynes / or should receiue any secular honors / and if they dyd / they shoulde bee excommunicated or accursed. Now I come to M. Doctors argumentes / which he bringeth to establish thys disorder.

And first he sayeth mynisters of the word may not occupy them selues in wordly busines / as to be marchants / husbandmen / craftes men / and such like / but they may exercise cyuill offices. Where first of all I perceiue M. Doctor is of thys mynde / that the order of God is not to be broken for small gayne / or when a man must take great toyle of the body to breake it: but it may be broken with getting of honor / and doing of those things which may be done with out soyle / & with great commendation / there it is lawfull to breake it. In deede so the Poete (but in the person of an vniust and ambition man / ) sayd: ei chre adicein, tyranni­dos heneca chre, that is. If a man must do vniustly / he must doe it to beare rule.

Secondarely I doe see that M. Doctor will not be shackled and hyndered from hys ministery by a paire of yron fetters / but if he can get a payre of golden fetters / he is contēted to be hampered and entangled / from doing the office of mi­nistery committed vnto hym. For onles these should be the causes which should moue hym to take the one / and refuse the other / verely I see none. For where as he sayth it is a helpe / & maynteineth relygion / in deede that is the reason of the papistes which M. Caluin confuteth in hys institution. And although it be good 4. li. cap. 11. and necessary to punish vice and iniquity / by corporall punishmentes and by cy­uill corrections: yet it doth no more follow that that should be done by y^e myni­sters / then it followeth that for that preaching and mynistring the sacramentes and excommunication are good and necessary / therefore the same is fitte to be ex­ecuted by the cyuill magistrate. I graunt the mynisters haue also to punyshe vice / for as the cyuill magistrates punishe lyghter faultes with some penalty of money or losse of membre: so the churche and the mynister especially with the church / hath to punishe faultes by represions and rebukes. And as the cyuill magistrate punisheth greater faultes by death: so the mynister with other whiche haue intereste / hath with the sworde of excommunication power to kill those which be rebellious / & to cut them from the church / as the other doth from the common wealth. And if it be a helpe to the mynisters office / that he shoulde meddle with ciuill punishmēts / why shuld it not be a helpe vnto the magistrates office / that he should excommunicate and other things pertayning to the ecclesia­sticall disciplyne? And where as M. Doctor sayth they may not be husbandmen / crafts mē. &c. & yet may haue ciuil offices / I thinke far otherwise / that although neither be lawfull / yet the one were more tollerable then the other. For seing af­ter the ministery of the word / there is no calling vnder the sunne weightyer / and which requireth greater exercise of the mynde / then the office of the magistrate / it is agaynst all reason to lay this heauy burthen vpon a man that is already loden / and hath as much as he is able to beare. It were more equall / if they will needes [Page 211] adde vnto the weyght of thys burthen / to lay some lyghter charge of exercising & handy craft / then to breake hys backe with the charge of a cyuill magistrate.

And whereas in the pollicy of M. Doctor it semeth a furtherance to the gospell to ioyne these together which was also the pollicy of the Idolaters / (as I haue before declared) in the wisedome of God it hath semed farre otherwyse / which I doubt not dyd therfore separate the ministery from thys pompe / whiche is commendable in the cyuill magistrate / least the efficacy and power of the sim­plicitie of the word of God and of the mynistery should be obscured / whilest men would attribute the conuersion of soules vnto the gospell (dew vnto the worde and to the spirite of God) to these gloryous shewes. And least whylest the my­nyster haue the woorde in one hande / and the sword in the other / men should not be able to iudge so well in their consciences of the mighty operation of the worde of God in them. For they might doubt with them selues / whether the feare & out ward shew of the mynister / caryed some stroke with them in beleuing the word.

But M. Doctor sayeth / that cyuill offices are not to be counted worldly affayres / but heauenly and spirituall / it is so / and yet when they are compared with the ecclesiasticall offices / they may be called secular offices / for so muche as they together with the care of relygion / procure and prouide for the things wher­by we may quietly and commodiously lyue here / where the ecclesiasticall offices are immediatly and only bent / to procure the glory of God and the saluation of men / and in that signification of heauenly & spirituall which you take / marchan­dyse / husbandry / and the handy craft be heauenly and spyrituall / although not in the same degree. All lawfull callinges came from God / & returne to hym agayne / that is / he is both author of them / and they ought to be referred to hys glory / so that if the mynister may exercise all thinges which be heauenly / and spirituall / you may as well bring hym downe to the plough / as promote hym to the courte. And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the office of a commissyoner is ecclesiasti­call / because it handleth ecclesiasticall causes / I meruayle that he is so ignorant / that he can not put a difference betweene geuing iudyciall sentences / and appoyn­ting bodely punishmentes (which are meere cyuill) and betweene the vnder­standing the truth of euery such cause according as the worde of God defyneth of it: which is a thing common as wel vnto the magistrate as vnto the minister / and wherein the mynister because he ought to be most ready / ought (if neede be) consulted with.

An other of Maister Doctors reasons is / that as kinges doe serue Christ by making lawes for hym / so byshoppes doe serue Christ by executing lawes for him. As though it pertayned not vnto the magistrates to execute lawes / aswell as to make them / and as if the magistrate were not therefore called a speaking law / because by executing them / he doth cause the lawes after a fashion to speake. Thys is to deuide the stake of the magistrate / betwene hym / and the byshop / yea to geue the byshoppe the best part of it. For wee know that with vs / the people be at making of the lawes / which may not meddle with the execution of them. And if M. Doctor say that he meaneth not hereby to shut the prince from execu­ting the lawes / then as hys similytude (when it is at the best) proueth nothing: so by thys meanes it haltes downe ryght / and is no simylitude. As for Elie and Samuell they are extraordinary examples / which may thereby appeare / for that both these offices first meting in Melchisedech / & afterward in Moses / were by the commaundement of God seuered / when as the Lord toke from Moses (being so wise & godly a man) the priesthode / & gaue it to Aaron / and to hys successors. And so / for so much as when the Lord would polishe hys church / & make it fa­mous / & renoumed in the world / he gaue thys order: It appeareth that he wold haue this to be a perpetuall rule vnto his church. And by so much it is the clearer / for that y^e Lord did not tary vntil Moses death / but toke the priesthode away frō [Page 212] Moses / which was a man as able to execute both / as eyther Elie / or Samuell. And thys may be also easely seene / for that in a maner alwayes / where there was any good and stayed estate of the churche / these offices were mynistred by seue­rall persons / and then met & were mingled / when the estates were very ruinous and myserable. And if thys be a good reason to proue that mynisters may exercise ciuill offices / it is as good a reason to proue / that princes may preach / and myni­ster the sacramentes. For if the mynisters may exercise ciuill offices / because E­lie / and Samuell (being mynisters) did so: the Princes / and Iudges may preach the word / and mynister the sacramentes / because Elie and Samuell (being prin­ces and iudges) dyd so. And so we see / how M. Doctor going about / to defende one confusion / bringeth in an other.

As for Elias killing the false prophetes / and our sauiour Christes whip­ping out of the temple / it is strange that Maister Doctor will alledge them / as thinges to be followed / when he may as well teach / that we may cal for fire from heauen / as Elias dyd / and being demaunded / answere nothing / as our sauiour dyd: as to follow these actions which are most singular / and extraordinary. And if these one / or two examples be enough to breake the order that God hath set / by thys a man may proue / that the mynisters may be fyshers / and tent makers / be­cause Ioh. 21. 3. Act. 18. 3. Peter / and Paule (being mynisters) dyd fyshe and make tents. And true­ly these are not so extraordinary / and from the generall rule / as the other be. And it was permitted in a councell / that rather then a mynister should haue two bene­fices Tom. 3. concil. Nice. ca. 15. / he might labor with hys handes / to supply hys want withall. When S. Paule willed Tim. that he should not receiue an accusation agaynst an elder / vn­der two or three witnesses / he dyd commit nothing les / then any ciuill office vnto hym. And M. Doctor hym selfe hath alledged it before / as a thing incident to the office of a byshop: and therefore he doth forget hymselfe maruellously now / that maketh thys a ciuill office.

And doth M. Doctor thincke / that S. Paule made magistrates? Or is he of that iudgement / that the church in the tyme of persecution / may make ciuill officers? But it is true / that he that is once ouer the shoes / sticketh not to run o­uer hys bootes.

And last of all to proue that byshoppes may haue prisons / hee citeth Peter which punyshed Ananias / and Saphira with death. M. Doctor must vnder­stand that thys was Ecclesiasticall power / and was done by vertue of that func­tion / which S. Paule calleth dynamin, which is one of those functions that the 1. Cor. 12. 28. Lord placed in hys church for a tyme. But is thys a good argument / because S. Peter punished with the word / therefore the mynister may punyshe with the sworde? And because S. Peter dyd so once / therefore the byshop may doe so al­way? & because S. Peter dyd that / which appertayneth to no ciuill magistrate / and which no ciuill magistrate / by any meanes may / or can doe / therefore the my­nister may doe that / which appertayneth vnto the ciuill magistrate? For if there had bene a ciuill magistrate / the same could not haue punyshed thys fault of dissi­mulation / which was not knowen / nor declared it selfe by any outwarde action. So that if thys example proue any thing / it proueth that the mynister may doe / that no man may doe / but the Lord only / which is to punysh faultes that are hyd / and vnknowne. If thys be ignoraunce / it is very grosse / & if it be agaynst know­ledge / it is more daungerous. I haue determyned with my selfe / to leaue vnto M. Doctor hys outcries and declamations / and if I should haue vsed them / as often as he geueth occasion / there would be no end of wryting. The Lord geue M. Doctor eyther better knowledge / or better conscience.

Vnto M. Doctor / asking where it appeareth that pope Eugenius brought in prysons into the church / as also vnto three or foure such like demaunds which hee maketh in thys booke / the authors of the Admonition answeare at once / that [Page 213] thys and the other are sounde in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles. Heere I will take in that / whych the byshop of Salesbury hath in the last page of hys halfe sheete touching thys matter.

And first of all I wel agree / that he sayth / that to geue vnto sathan (which is to excommunicate / and to correct an Ecclesiasticall person by reprehensyon / or putting hym out of the ministerye / if the case so require) is meere ecclesiasticall / and not ciuill / and that those thyngs ought to be done of the offycers of y^e church. Thys only I deny / that the ministers ought to meddle wyth ciuill offyces. For proofe whereof / the B. alledgeth the example of Augustine / whych as Possido­nius wryteth / was troubled wyth the hearing & determinyng of causes. Wher­in Possidonius sayeth nothyng / but that I willingly agree vnto. For the mini­ster wyth the elders / ought bothe to heare / and determine of causes / but of suche causes / as pertaine vnto their knowledge / whereof I haue spoken before. And that Possidonius ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustin / as he was a mi­nister / and not of ciuill affaires / it appeareth by that whych he wryteth immedi­atly after / where he sayth. Being also consulted of / by certen in their worldly af­faires / he wrote epistles to diuers / but he accompted of thys / as of compulsyon / and restraint from hys better busynesses: whereby it appeareth / that S. Augu­stine medled not wyth those worldly affaires / further / then by waye of giuing counsell / whych is not vnlawful for a minister to do / as one friend vnto an other / so that hys mynisterye be not thereby hindered. And for the truthe of thys mat­ter / that ministers ought not to meddle wyth ciuill affaires / I will appeale to no other / then to the byshop hym selfe / who dothe affirme plainly the same / that the The byshop of Sarum / in the defence of the Apollogie / in the. 5. part. 4. chap. and. 2. section. 1. Pet. 4. 15. admonition heere affirmeth.

And therfore I conclude / that for so much as bothe the holy scriptures doe teache / that ministers oughte not to meddle wyth ciuill offyces / and reason / and the practise of the church doe confirme it / that they ought to kepe thēselues with­in the limites of the ministerye / and Ecclesiasticall functions / least whilest they breake forthe into the calling of a magistrate / in steade of shewing themselues episcopous, that is ouerseers / they be found to declare themselues * allotriopisco­pous, that is: busy bodyes / medling in thyngs whych belong not vnto them. And thus putting them in remembrance of that whych they knowe well enoughe / that they ought cosman sparten hen elachon, that is to say: studye to adorne that charge whych they take in hande / and doe professe / I leaue to speake any further of thys matter.

Vnto the two next sections I haue spoken in that whych hathe bene sayde touchyng excommunication / canons / and prebendaries. &c. and vnto that whych is contained in the. 226. and. 227. I answere that I can not excuse couetous pa­trones of benefices / but couetous parsons and vicars be a great plague vnto this church / and one of the principall causes of rude and ignorant people.

Lykewise vnto the two next sectiōs I haue answeared before / in speaking against the spirituall courts / whych are now vsed / and vnto the next after that / in speaking of the ordayning of ministers. And vnto that whych is contained in the later ende of the. 234. and the beginning of the. 235. I say that the church shall iudge of the aptnes or vnaptnes of our reasons / and albeit we do finde fault with diuers thyngs in the booke / yet we neyther oppugne as enemyes / nor are by the grace of God eyther Papists / Anabaptists / Atheists / or Puretanes / as it plea­seth M. Doctor to call vs. And to the prayer agaynst disturbers of the churche / I say wyth all my heart. Amen.

Vnto the next section I haue answeared in the treatise of the apparell. And vnto the next after / in the treatise whych declareth to whome it doth appertaine to make ceremonyes and orders of the church. And vnto the section contained in the. 243. page / I say that M. Doctor being asked of Oynions / answeareth of [Page 214] garlike. For the authors of the admonition / desyring that it myght be as lawful for them to publishe by Printe their mindes / or to be heard dispute / or that theyr minde put in wryting / myghte be openly debated / maister D. answeareth wyth Augustines sentence (whych he hath made the foote of hys song) nothing to the purpose of that whych they said / the performance of which promise / we wil not­wythstanding wayte for.

Vnto the section contayned in the. 245. and. 246. pages.

HEre maister Doctor / contrary to the protestation of the authors of the Ad­monition / whych declare that for the abuses / and corruptions / they dare not simply subscribe / sayth / that therfore they will not subscribe / because they are required by lawfull authoritye. Whych howe bothe presumptuous and vnchari­table a iudgement it is / let all men iudge / especially vpon this matter whych hath bene declared. And where maister Doctor wold vpon the marginall note / proue that we haue good discipline / because we haue good doctrine / and thervpon doth wonderfully tryumphe / he playeth as he of whome it is sayde / meden labon cra­tei carteros, that is / hauyng gotten nothyng / holdeth it fast. For can M. doctor be so ignorant / that thys manner of speach (doctrine and discipline can not be se­uered) is vsed for that / that they ought not to be seuered? when we say (folowing S. Paule) that we can do nothing against the truth / doe we not meane that we ought to do nothyng / nor can do nothyng lawfully agaynst it? And do not al men knowe when we say that a man can not be separated from hys wyfe / but for the cause of adultery / that we meane he ought not / or he cannot lawfully? Therfore thys is / as (all men may see) a mere cauill / and triumph ouer hys owne shadow. There is no brag of suffering made by the authors of the admonition. The mo­desty wherwith he hath defended this cause / cā not be hiddē. That he wold haue other men punished for wel doing / when he is not content that the open wrongs whych he doth / shuld be once spoken of / I haue shewed how vnreasonable it is.

Finally / as you exhorte vs to submit our selues to good order / whych haue ben alwayes / and yet are ready to do: to leaue to be contentious / which neuer yet began: to ioyne wyth you in preaching the word of God / which haue stopped our mouthes / and wil not suffer vs to preache: so we exhorte you in Gods behalfe / & as you will once answere it before the iust iudge / that you wil not willingly shut your eyes against the truthe / that if the Lord vouchsafe to open it vnto you / you kicke not agaynst it. Where we pray you to take heede / that neyther the desire of keping your wealth and honor whych you are in / nor the hope whych you maye haue of any further promotion / nor yet the care of keeping your estimation / by maintaining that whych you haue once set downe / nor the sleighty suggestion of crafty & wily papists / do driue you to stomble against thys truthe of God / which toucheth the gouernement of hys churche / and the purging of those corruptions whych are amongste vs / knowing that you can not stumble vpon the woorde of God / * but forthwith you run your selfe agaynst Christ whych is the rocke. And 1. Pet. 2. 8. Luke. 20. 18. you knowe that he will not geue backe / but breaketh all to fytters / whatsoeuer he be that rusheth agaynst him. And if the matter heerein alledged / do not satisfy you: then I desire euen before the same God / that you confute it / not by passyng ouer thyngs whych you can not answeare / or by leauing both the words and the meaning of the booke / and taking your owne fansye to confute / or by wrangling wyth the fault of the Printe / or by carping at the translation / when the wordes being changed / the sence remaineth / or by alledging that such a one / or such an o­ther / was of thys or that iudgement / as you for the most parte (hauing nothyng but hys bare name) haue done. (All whych things you haue committed in thys boke) but that you confute it by the authoritye of the worde of God / by good and [Page 215] sound reasons / wholy and not by pecemeale. And if you bring the practise of the churches / we desire that it may be out of authorities whych are extāt / which are not counterfait / and whych were in the best and purest times. And if you thinke that the credite of your doctorship or deanrye / will beare out that which you can not answer your self / besides that The reuen­ging eye. ecdicon omma, is neuer shut / remember M. doctor / that light is come into the world / & men wil not be deluded with nothing / nor abused wyth visards. Neither let it embolden you (whych peraduēture hath made you to presume the more in this boke) to wryte any thing vpon hope / that no man dare answer it. For neither the Quenes maiesty / nor her honorable coū ­cel / as we are persuaded / wil deale so sharply wyth those whom they know to be faithfull & lawfull subiects / whych pray that all the treasures of Gods wisedom may be powred vpon them: neither haue we cause to thinke / but that as the euill opinion whych is in part conceyued of vs / hathe growne vpon false & vntrue in­formations / which you and such other haue geuen (in crying in their eares / y^t we be anabaptists / conspired with papists / puretanes / Donatists / bringers in of cō ­fusion & anarchie / enemies to ciuil gouernment / and I knowe not what) euen so whē her maiesty & their honors shal vnderstand / how far we are from those wic­ked opinions / they will leaue that opinion of vs / and rather esteme of vs by that we haue preached / taught / and now wryte / then that whych other men report of vs / being things which we neuer taught / spake / or so muche dreamed of.

Vnto master Doctors censures vpon the additions / detractions / and alterations of bothe the partes of the admonition.

BEsydes that oftentimes M. Doctor dothe accounte the expositions and ex­planations / corrections / he leaueth vs somewhat the les hope / that he wil cor­rect hys errors / for that he pursueth the authors of the admonition so harde / correcting their very smal and few slips which they haue made / calling thys sin­gulare modestye / and commendable humility amongste other reproches / dalying and inconstancye / when it is oure profession euery day to learne better thyngs. For vnto what ende should we lyue / if time / if experience / if reading / if musing / if conference should teache vs nothyng? And therefore / when thyngs are Prin­ted againe / it is good and prayse worthy / to pollish those things whych are some▪ what rude / to mitigate those things whych are to sharpe / to make plaine / and to geue lighte to those things whych seeme darker / and to correcte that whych is a misse. I thinke M. Doctor shoulde not be ignorante / that wise men haue their deuteras phrontidas, their seconde counsels / and those also wyser and better then their first / as that sentence doth declare. I will therfore say no more heereof / but admonishe M. Doctor that he receiue more louingly those whych correcte them selues / seing that the best defence to hys booke must be / not a correction here and there / but a cleane blotting and striking out / not an amending / but a new making almoste of hys whole booke. Other matter in hys censures / he hath almost none at all worthe the answearing / sauing that he hathe a place or two whych touch the matters before entreated of. For whereas he accuseth the authors of the ad­monition in the first leafe / as though they should condemne Doctors and bachel­lers of diuinitie / and so bryng in confusion of degrees / he vpon the. 5. leafe / con­fesseth that they allowe of a Doctor. Althoughe he that taketh away degrees of Doctor or Bachelor of Diuinitie / dothe not bryng in confusion / nor taketh not away all degrees of schooles / especially seeing they are nowe made bare names wythout any offices / and oftentimes they are admitted to these degrees / whych neyther can / nor will teache.

Vnto the seconde leafe of the addition of the second parte of the admoniti­on / master D. saith / that because the third to Titus maketh not against reading / [Page 216] therfore it maketh not against reading ministers / that is / ministers that can doe nothyng but reade.

And wheras he would picke out a contradiction in the words of the admo­nition / because they say bare reading / is but bare feading / the discorde is in hys cares / not in their wordes. For when they sayde it was no feading / they meant suche feeding as could saue them / and so in calling it bare feading / they note that there is not enough in that / to keepe them from famishment. And in deede / vnles the Lord worke miraculously and extraordinarily (whych is not to beloked for of vs) the bare reading of the scriptures wythout the preachyng / can not delyuer so much as one poore sheepe from destruction / and from the wolfe. And if some haue ben conuerted wonderfully / yet M. doctor should remember that potamos ouc aei axinas pherei, that is. The water doth not alway beare iron.

And vpon the thirde leafe / where he geueth instance in the Apocalypse of the worde (priest) to be taken otherwyse / then for the Leuiticall priesthode / and priesthode of our sauioure Christe. Maister D. can not be ignorant / that the ad­monition speaketh of those which be priests in deede / & properly / and not by those whych are priests by a Metaphore and borowed speache. And whereas he desy­reth to learne where the word (priest) is taken in euill parte in all the new Te­stament. Although all men see how he asketh thys question of no minde to learne: yet if he will learne (as he sayeth) he shall finde that in the actes of the apostles / it is taken diuers tunes in euill parte. For seeing that the office and function of ron iereon, that is / of priests / was (after our sauyor Christes ascencion) naught and vngodly: The name wherby they were called / whych dyd exercise that vn­godly function / can not be otherwyse taken / then in the euill parte.

M. Doctor vpon the. 5. leafe / citeth M. Caluins authority / to proue that the laying on of the handes vpon yong children / and the Confirmation whych is heere vsed / is good. In the whych place / although he allow of a kinde of Confir­mation / yet he doth not commende that whych we haue. For he dothe plainly re­proue Ierom / for saying that it came from the apostles / whych notwythstanding the Confirmation wyth vs dothe affirme. Besydes that / there are other abuses whych I haue noted there / whych M. Caluin doth not by any word allow. He alloweth in deede of a putting on of handes of the children / when they come oute of their childehode / or begin to be yong men / but as well as he doth allow of it / he was one of those whych did thruste it oute of the churche / where he was pastor. And so he alloweth of it / that he bryngeth (in the sixt section of the same chapter) a strong reason to abolyshe it. Where he asketh / what the imposition of handes should do now / seeing that the geuing of the giftes of the holy ghost by that cere­mony is ceased. Therfore / seeing that we haue M. Caluins reason against thys imposition of hands / hys name ought not to be preiudiciall vnto vs: especially / se­ing that we haue experience of great inconuenyences whych come by it / whych M. Caluin coulde not haue / that thyng being not in vse in that church where he lyued. Whych inconuenience in thyngs whych are not necessary / oughte to be a iust cause of abolyshing of them. And thys is not my iudgement only / but the iudgement of the churches of Heluetia / Berne / Tigurine / Geneua / Scotlande / and diuers others / as appeareth in the. 19. chapter of their confession.

Vpon the. 6. leafe / M. Doctor sayth that the Pope taketh the sword from Princes / but our byshops take it at their hands / and geuen of them: as thoughe chalenge were not made agaynst the Pope / for vsing the materiall sworde / and not only for vsing it against the wil of y^e princes. For by that reason / if Prynces would put their swordes in hys hand / as sometymes they haue done / he myghte lawfully vse them. And wheras he sayeth / that our church men meddle not with all ciuill causes / or exercise all ciuill iurisdiction / but suche as helpeth to discipline / and the good gouernment of the church / and the state: What sayth he / that is not [Page 217] truely sayd of any ciuill magistrate in the realme? for no one dothe meddle in all causes. And further / I woulde gladly knowe what ciuill iurisdiction is in thys realme / whych helpeth not vnto the good gouernment of thys church / and state. For if they meddle wyth all that / there is none whych they haue not to do with.

Vpon the. 7. leafe / he sayth / that he knoweth not the meaning of the admo­nition / when it proueth that the gouernment of the church is spiritual / their mea­ning is plaine enoughe / and I haue declared it more at large to be / not only that our sauyor Christ ruleth by hys spirite in the hearts of hys elect (besides whych gouernment M. doctor seemeth to know none.) But that there is also spiritual gouernmēt / whych is in the whole church visible / & to be sene / exercised by those / whome God hath appoynted in hys stead / called spirituall / because where as the ciuill gouernment vseth the sword / thys vseth the word: and where the ciuill go­uernor addresseth hymselfe vnto the bodye / and hathe that for speciall matter to worke on / the spirituall gouernors be occupied in reforming the minde / and sub­duing that wyth those punishments and corrections / whych God hath appoyn­ted for that purpose. Whych signification of spirituall gouernment / M. Caluine doth speake of in bothe the places alledged by M. doctor: and especially in the la­ter / vnto whom the admonition sent the reader / not therby to giue more waight vnto the truth / but that he myght haue there a plainer / and fuller vnderstanding of that whych it meant / and could not for that breuity and shortnes whych it fo­loweth throughout / vtter at large. Wherby it is manifest / that the admonition is so farre from shutting out eyther ciuill gouernment / or externall gouernment in the church / that it teacheth of an externall gouernment whych M. doctor semeth not to haue heard of / allbeit there be nothing eyther more common in the scryp­tures / or Ecclesiasticall wryters.

Vpon the. 8. leafe / M. doctor sayth he seeth nothyng / howe the place of the Ephesians maketh any thing against this maner of speach of the bishop (receiue the holy ghost) and yet it maketh thus much / that for as much as the apostles did vse to pray that the grace of God might be geuen vnto men / the byshops shoulde not vse this manner of speache / which containeth the forme of a cōmaundement.

Vpon the. 9. leafe he hath sondry greeuous accusations and charges of dis­order / disobedience / and contempt against those whych refuse the apparel / and la­boureth to persuade that they are great and waighty matters. But hys profes were spent before.

As for answeare to the articles collected out of the admonition / it is made in the Replie vnto M. Doctors boke / where I haue shewed howe the admoni­tion is misconstrued / and taken otherwise / then either it meaneth or speaketh / whervnto I will referre the reader.

And albeit I haue shewed how vntrue it is / that the admonition affirmeth that there is no church in England / yet I can not pas by the secrete philosophy whereby M. doctor would proue / that the authors of the admonition affirme it. For sayth he by y^e rule of Philosophie. Quod vix fit, non fit, that which is skarce done / is not done. I say this is secrete / for it was neuer taughte / neither in Aca­demia, nor in Stoa, nor Lyceo. I haue red Quod fere fit, non fit, that whych is almost done / is not done. But I neuer remembre any such rule / as M. Doctor speaketh of.

And besides that in our tonge / those thyngs whych [...] sayde to be skarce / are notwythstanding oftentimes supposed to be: As when a [...]an saith that there is skarce a man aliue. &c. the scripture also vseth that phrase of speache / of thyngs whych are / as when it sayth / the iust man shal skarce be saued / it doth not meane 1. Pet. 4. 18. that iust men shall not be saued. The rest of that I haue answeared.

And wheras he sayth that it is all one / to say that the election of the mini­ster must be made by the church / and to say / it must be made by the people: It is [Page 218] a great ouersyghte to make the parte / and whole all one / seeing the people be but one parte of the churche / and the minister and the other gouernoures are / allbeit not the greatest / yet the principallest part. I graunt that sometimes a part is ta­ken for the whole / and so we do call sometimes the gouernors of the churche the churche / and sometimes the people. But where the question is of the proprietye of these speaches (the churche and the people) there all men that haue any iudge­ment / can easely put a difference. The rest of those articles are answeared in the discourse of the booke. Besydes that / the faultes whych are found wyth the vn­true gathering of them / are not taken away by M. Doctor / but only in confident and bolde asseuerations. And if I should say any thyng / I should but repeate their wordes.

In the viewe of the second admonition / M. Doctor dothe as it seemeth of purpose / cull out those thyngs whych he hath spoken on before / and in repeatyng of them / referreth hys reader vnto hys boke. Diuers other matters there are / of great weight / whych he speaketh not of / if he doe approue them / it had bene well he had signified hys liking: if he do not / that he had confuted them. And if he tra­uailed so heauely of brynging forth of thys booke / that it was as heauy a burden vnto him / as Salomon sayth a fond word is vnto an vnwise man: he might haue taken day to answere it. Nowe by this slender answearing of it / or rather not an­swearing at all / but only asking howe thys and that is proued / (where as being proued / it is vnreproued of hym) he doth his cause more harme / then he is aware of. For vnles hys proufes be ioyned wyth his expulsions / imprisonments / and with all that racket whych he maketh in Cambridge to the vttermost of that his authority will stretch vnto / he may be well assured / that their driuing out / will draw in the truth / and their imprisonment / will set the truth at greater libertye / and therby proue it selfe to be neither Papistry / nor Anabaptistry / Donatistry / Catharisme / nor any other heresy whych are by due correction repressed. But as for the truthe of God / the more it is laden / the straighter it standeth / and y^e more it is kept vnder / the more it enforceth it selfe to rise / and will vndoubtedly gette vp / howe great so euer the stone be / whych is layd vpon it. And albeit he had no leasure to answere the matters whych required his answere / yet he carpeth at by matters / and asketh who are meant by the politicke Macheuils.

What if they meane master doctor / and suche other / whych vnder the pre­tence of pollicy / would ouerthrowe the churche / and that by those thyngs whych haue skarce a shewe of pollicy / and in deede ouerturne the pollicy and gouernmēt of the Lord. And I pray you tell me M. doctor who be those superyors / whych do contemne / hate / discourage / and frumpe those whych execute the lawes of the realme / of the which you speake in the. 88. page. And where you adde by and by / that they enuy all men of great authority / witte / and pollicy / I haue answeared thys speache before. And truely I thincke there is not in Meshecke / so slaunde­rous Psal. 120. 4. 5 a tonge to be found as thys is / nor the Iuniper coales are not comparable wyth it. After he accuseth the admonition / as if it condemned scholes and vni­uersities wyth all manner degrees / when it doth but inueigh against degrees gi­uen of custome / rather then of ryghte / rather by money / then by merite of lear­ning / and when titles of doctorshyp be geuen to those whych haue not the offyce of a Doctor / and oftentimes to those which can not do the office if they had it / and when men do seeke vaine glory in them / and suche lyke.

For the repetition of Gloria patri. &c. I haue spoken sufficiently before: but what spirite is it / that calleth this translation of the word battologefete, (vse not vaine repetitions) a wycked wresting of S. Mathewes place in hys .vj. chap­ter. What rasor is thys / that cutteth so sharpe? knoweth he against whome / and against the excellent learning / and singuler piety of howe many he speaketh? For thys is the translation of those learned / and godlye men / whych translated the [Page 219] Bible / whych is commōly called the Geneua Bible: and is thys a wycked wre­sting? Admit it were not translated exactly / to the word of the Euangelist: is it therfore a wresting / and a wicked wresting? What (I wil not say wicked / but) false conclusion / or doctrine can be grounded of this translation? And they that translate it thus / haue not only the authority of y^e Lexicons to confirme their trā ­slation / whych shew that thys word was taken vp / in reproche of a folysh Pocte called Battus, whych vsed to repeat one thing many times: but they haue also the circumstance of the place to warrant it. For the reason whych our sauior Christ vseth / to draw men from this fault leadeth to thys translation / and can not stand with that sense / which M. doctor setteth downe. For how hāg these togither: you shall not babble many wordes wythout faithe. &c. because your heauenly father knoweth / what you haue nede of / before you aske? It is vnlike first / that our sa­uyor Christ wold speake thus (babble not many words w^tout fayth. &c.) when as rather he would haue forbidden them to speake any one word without fayth. &c. For if he should speake thus / he shuld seeme to haue alowed a prayer without fayth / so that it were not cōceiued in many words. And againe / if (as M. doctor sayth) this had bene the proposition / whych our sauyor Christ disswaded from / y^• they should not babble many words wythout faith. &c. he would neuer haue ad­ded thys reason / (for your heauenly father knoweth. &c.) for neyther is he father vnto any such: And he woulde rather haue sayd as S. Iames sayeth / that they Chap. 1. 7. should be sure to receiue nothyng / because they aske not in faythe. Nowe as thys reason can not stand wyth M. Doctors interpretation: so doth it wel agree with the translation of the Geneua Bible. For what could be more fitly sayd to driue the disciples from thys vain repetition / then to say / that the heauenly father kno­weth. &c. and that it is not wyth the Lord / as it is wyth men / that muste haue a thyng oftentimes spoken / or euer they can vnderstand it? Furthermore / what a reason is thys: VVe must repeat the Lordes prayer oftentimes / therfore we must repeate it oftentimes in halfe an houre / and one in the necke of an other? And if s. Paules place to the Thessalonians / (pray continually) be referred vnto the say­ing of the Lordes prayer (as M. doctor would beare vs in hande) then it is not lawfull for vs to vse any other words / then those whych our sauyor Christ vsed. But I could neuer yet learne / that those wordes binde vs of necessity / any more vnto the repetition of the Lordes prayer word for word / then vnto the repetition of any other godly prayer in the scripture. And I would be lothe to saye that it were simply necessary / to vse that iust nombre of wordes / and neyther more / nor les at any time / much les oftentimes in so small a space. For our sauyor Christe doth not there geue a prescript forme of prayer / whervnto he bindeth vs: but ge­ueth vs a rule and squire to frame all our prayers by / as I haue before declared. I knowe it is necessary to pray / and to pray often. I knowe also that in so fewe words it is impossible for any man to frame so pithy a prayer: And I confes that the churche doth well in concluding theyr prayers wyth the Lordes prayer: but I stande vpon thys / that there is no necessitye layde vpon vs / to vse these verye wordes and no more / and especially that the place of S. Paule to the Thessalo­nians dothe least of all proue it. As for M. Doctors outcryes / he hathe so often worn our eares wyth them / and that wythout cause / that I thinke by this time / no man regardeth them.

A short Replie vnto M. Doctors briefe answere / whych he ma­keth to certaine godly Admonitions and Exhortations / whych he calleth pamphletes.

VVHere the sayeth the authors of the admonition are not punyshed / or theyr boke misliked / for that it telleth of the faults in the church / or of y^e synnes of men / but for y^t it maintaineth false doctrine / and for that they preferred [Page 220] a libell: For the doctrine / it appeareth by that whych is sayd / what it is. And if he wold define what a libell were / it were easy to answere vnto the other poynt. If he meane because it was preferred wythout any name vnto it / howe will he answer vnto the example of the wryter of the Epistle vnto the Hebrues / which was a singuler instrument / and did not subscribe hys Epistle / wherein notwith­standing / he sharply rebuketh diuers faultes amongst them. And yet the wryter to the Hebrues / was not the minister of Sathan. And if he call it a libel / because it vseth some sharper speaches / surely all men see that hys boke deserueth then to be called a Satyre / hauing for tarte wordes / bitter / and for one / twentie. But in what respecte so euer he call it a libell / he accuseth not so much the authors of the admonition for preferring of it / as diuers of the honourable house of Parlia­ment / whych dyd alowe it. Where as maister Doctor compareth vs wyth the Phariseis / and sayeth we doe all to be seene of men / and that we hold downe our heades in the streates / and straine at a gnatte / swalowing downe a Camell / be­cause they are in all mennes knowledge / I will leaue it to them to iudge of the truthe of those thyngs. Where he sayeth we seldome / or neuer laughe / it is not therefore that we thincke that it is not lawfull to laughe / but that the considera­tions of the calamities of other churches / and of the ruines of oures / wyth the heauy iudgements of the Lord whych hang ouer vs / ought to turne oure laugh­ing into weeping / besides that a man may laugh / although he shew not his tethe. And so Ierome in effecte / answeareth in an epistle whych he wrote / where vpon occasion that certaine vsed the same accusation / that M. doctor doeth / he sayeth / because we do not laugh wyth open mouth / therfore we are counted sad.

And where he sayeth / we separate oure selues from all congregations / and are enemies to Prince / and that we wold seeme to be holyer then other / these and such lyke slaunders are answeared before. And if there be any that refuse to sa­lute godly preachers / or spitte in any mannes face / or wishe the plague of God to lyght vpon them / or say that they be damned / we defende not / nor allowe of anye suche behauyor. And it is vnreasonable / that the fault of one / should be imputed to so many / and to those whych do as much mislyke of it / as M. doctor hymselfe. And what needed. M. Doctor to byd the authors of these exhortations to holde their handes? where doe they in a word / offer to strike? belike hys tonge is hys owne / and therfore he speaketh whatsoeuer he lysteth.

After M. Doctor confuteth hys owne shadowe. For the exhortation doth not require that the name of a brother shuld deliuer the authors of the admoniti­on from punishment if they deserued it / but desireth that it myghte worke some moderation of the rigoure of it / and compassion to minister to their necessities in prison. He sayeth that the authors of the Admonition / take not them for theyr brethren / yes verely / although vnbrotherly handled / & for fathers to / and so both loue them / and reuerence them / vntil (whych we hope wil not be) they shall ma­nifestly for the vpholding of their owne kingdome and profite / refuse to haue Christe raigne ouer vs / in whome thys fatherhoods and brotherhoode doth con­siste.

I knowe not whether they haue bene conferred wyth or no / but I thynke the first reason whych they had to perswade them / was / that they shoulde goe to Newgate / whych is that / which the Exhortation complaineth of after / that they are first punished / before they be taught. And in thys behalfe M. doctor hath no cause to complaine as he doth. For if he list / he may learn or euer he go to prison. And as for the truth of the cause / and wresting and mangling of the scriptures / in most places where they are sayd to mangle and wrest / and how he hath answered the request of the exhortation / whych is: to confute the admonition by the scrip­tures / & how truely / aptly / & learnedly M. doctor hath behaued himself / in citing of the olde Councels / & Fathers: I leaue it to be estemed / partly / of that which [Page 221] I haue sayd / and partly / by the deeper consideration of those / which because they can better iudge / may see further into M. Doctors faultes / and rapsodies then I can. Although the truth is / that I haue / because I woulde not make a long booke / by heaping of one reprehension vpon an other / contented my selfe rather to trip / as it were / and to passe ouer with a light foote / the Heades / and Summes of things / then to number the faultes which are almost / as many as there are sen­tences in thys booke / more I am sure then there are pages.

ACcording to my promise made in my boke / I haue here set down the iudge­ment of the later wryters / concerning these matters in controuersy betwene vs. Wherein because I loue not to translate out of other mens workes / whereby I might make myne to grow: I haue kept thys moderation / that I neither sette down all the wryters / nor all their places / that I could / nor yet of euery singuler matter: but the chefest wryters / and other of the cheefest poyntes / or else of those / wherein they are alleadged agaynst vs by M. Doctor / and one only place of eche (as farre as I could iudge and choose out) most direct to that wherefore I haue alleaged it. For otherwyse if I would haue spoken of all the poyntes / and of the iudgement of all the wryters / and gathered all the places that I could / they woulde haue bene sufficient matter of an other booke as bigge / or rather bigger then thys. I must also admonish the Reader / that I haue for borne in certeine of these Titles / to set downe the iudgements of M. Beza / M. Bul­linger and M. Gualter: because they are comprehended in the Confessyon of the Churches. And thus / partly vpon those sentences which I haue alleaged in thys booke / and partely vpon these Testimonies heere set downe: I leaue to the consyderation of all men / how truely / and iustly it is sayde / that the learned wry­ters of these tymes (one or two onely excepted) are agaynst vs.

1 That there ought now to be the same regiment of the Church / which was in the Apostles tyme.

THe confession of the Heluetian / Tygurin / Berne / Geneua / Polonia / Hun­gary / and Scotland with others / in the. 18. chapter / speaking of the equali­ty of the ministers sayth / that no man may iustly forbyd to returne to the old constitution of the church of God / and to receiue it before the custome of man.

M. Caluin in hys Institututions. 4. booke. 3. chapter / and 8. section / spea­king of the auncientes which dyd assist the pastor in euery church / sayth that ex­periēce teacheth / that that order was not for one age / & that thys office of gouern­ment is necessary to all ages. And in the. 12. chapter / and first section of the same booke sayth as much of Excommunication and other Ecclesiasticall censures.

Peter Martyr vpon the third to the Rom. teacheth that although the com­mon wealth chaunge her gouernment / yet the church alwayes kepeth hers still.

Bucer in hys first booke of the kingdome of Christ. 15. chapter / lamenteth that there were founde amongst those which are counted of the forwardest chri­stians / which woulde not haue the same disciplyne vsed now / that was in the times of the Apostles / obiecting the differences of tymes / and of men.