AN HOLSOME

Antidotus or counter­poysen, agaynst the pestylent heresye and secte of the Anabap­tistes new­ly trans­lated out of latī into Englysh by Iohn Veron, Senonoys.

Prīcipiis obsta, sero medicina para tur
Cū mala per lōgas, inualuere moras
Vidiego quod fuerat, primo sana bile vulnus,
Dilatum longae, damna tu [...]sse mora▪

TO THE MOST REDOVBTED, prynce Edwarde, by the grace of god, Duke of Somer [...]et, Lorde Protector, of all the Kynges maiestes realmes subiectes, and dominions and gouernor of his most totall persō health, prosperite, ēcrease of honor & heauenly know­leg frome god y father, through out lorde and sauiour Iesu Christ So bett.

THE blesed aposttle saynte Paule, in y xx. chapiter of the actys, callynge to­gether all the seny­ours or prestes, at a place and towne called Myletum, dyd speake vnto thē after this maner Take ye hede to your selfs, & to a [...] the flock, ouer the which, the holly gost hath [Page] put you ouer seers to feade the congregation of god, which he purchasyd with his owne blood for I know this wel, that after my departynge, shall enter in greuous wolfes a monge you, which shall not spare the flock. And euen of your selfes, shall a ryse mē speakyng peruerse thin ges, to drawe dyscyples after them etc. Here, most myghtye prynce, dyd that chosē & elected vessell of god, describe most liuely, the wicked and peruerse na­ture, of false & seditious hery­tyckes, that studye for nowght elles, but to deuid and seperate the churche, to gette vnto them disciples, to scater & dissipate the flocke of y most bountuous sheaperde Iesu christe, to sowe discorde, & teach peruerse thinges, etc. Which thynge truely, [Page] dyd chaunce in the primatyue churche, euen in the tymes of y a postelles, to the great hynde­rance, and let of the gosspell of Christe, for where so euer, the apostells and dysciples of oure sauyour, had preachyd y kyng­dome of god, and with greate peane and labour, had brough: the people, from theyr superstytious, and vngodly wayes, in to the waye of the truthe: there dyd breake in certayne false prophetes, and false a postelles also, with there peruerse and hypocriticall doctryne, subuer­tynge the myndes of them, that wt ioyfull hartes, had receyued the glade tidynges of saluatin̄ & delyueraunce. These ar they y for their bealies sake, dyd, as a stormy & wyndy tēpest, trouble y peace & vnite of y church sekīg [Page] their owne glori and promotiō, imagynyng alwaies myscheffe, in their hartes, how thei coulde gette vnto them selfs, by theyr pestiferous blandiloquēce, and venymed flatterynge tonges, moste shamefully and vntruly, preferryng them selfs, vnto the true a postlles and discyples of our lorde) a perpetuall name & memorye, Agaynst them dyd y apostelles, and speacially saynt Paule (whome we maye right well call the standard bearer, of our Chrysten religion) wrytte very ernestly, callyng them an­tichristes, false prophetes and pseudoapostills, callyng them euell workmen, enemyes of the crosse and passion of christ, as it appereth more euydently in the actys and in the epystylls, that they haue wrytten and sent to [Page] sondrye and many churches, to arme and fense y flock of christ, agaynst such rauenyng wolfs. Yet not wtstondynge after the departyng of the a postells, that is to saye, after y god had done hys blessed wyll wt them accor­dynge to the commen course of nature: these false prophetes, dyd so preualle agaynst the true doctryne of christ, y in a maner these xii. hunderd yeares, fewe or none durst speake the truthe. For as soone as any man, by y inspiration and gyft of the holy gost, dyd begyne in those dayes, to preache the gosspell, purely & sincerely, to the great glorye of god and edyfyeng of the church, defending with the swerd of the spiritee, that libertee and frye­dome, that christ with hys pre­cyous bloode hath purchassyd [Page] vnto vs (dyd not these hypo­crites, bryng all the world in to thraldome, puttyng vpō christē menes neckes heauear [...]urdēs of humayne traditious and ceremoniall dreames, thā euer dyd the Iues beare? whiche as saynt Augustyne sayth, though they knew not the tyme of liber tye, yet not wtstandyng war lo­did and burdoned not with mēs presumptions, but with ye bur­dens of the law onely?) by and by was he, as a false heriticke, or as he that hath kyllyd bothe father, and mother, most cruely put to death. In so muche that the yearthly prynces, whome, with theyr abhomynabyll dyss­cimulation, they had gotten on theyr sede, blyndynge and poy­seynynge them most subtillye & craftely, with the golden cuppe [Page] of ye purplyd hore of Babylone, thought, that they dyd a greate sacryfyce vnto god, whan, with all the tirannye that coulde be, for these belys sake, murthered, and persequuted them, whome god had chosē and sent, to shewe vnto them, the waye of truthe & saluation. But blessed be that bontuous lorde, which hath not suffered the prynces, whome by hys diuine prouidence, he hath made & ordoned, to be supreme gouernors of hys church, immedyatly vnder hym (though by y tyrannicall power of those false prophetes, & antichristes, they ware put, by that superyorytye a greate whyle) to erre and bee deceued any lōger, but dyd most mercyfull opē their eyes to loke vpon that comfortable sonne of ryghtuosnes, and lyght of the [Page] truthe, y they myghte, in these thyk darkenessys of thys wret­ched worlde, be gydes vnto hys people, to bryng them out of the egypte of ignorannycye, and so leade them through y parylous desertes, into y land of promis­cion. For the which thynges, we are all greatly bounde, to gyue dayly, and hourley, immortall thāckes vnto god, and specially that, of hys bountuous, & mere goodnes he hath gyuen vnto vs such of noble & coragious prince which now in his tender years, is so delegentli brought vp, ī all godlynes & vertuous learning, that he hereafter, as a nobyll Salomon, shall wt all prudence and godly wysdome, not onely shed the blode of them that dyd shede the innocent bloode, but also, buylde vp, myghtely, the [Page] temple of the liuing god. Which thyng, as dauyd in y olde lawe, so nowe oure moste vyctoryus prynce. Henrye the eyghte, the father of this, oure sofuerayne lorde kyng Edwarde the syxte, wolde had done, if god had not dysposed otherwyse, with hym. But thanckes be to god, that he hath so well, prepared all thyn­ges, before hys death, and that he hath wt y tow edgged sworde of the spiritee, cutted a waye alredy, the bushes, thornes and brembles, that shuld had letted the buyldyng of the temple, ma­kyng the ground euen, by abba­tynge the pryde of these false a posteles, and puttyng awaye, by litell and litell the rubbyshe, of vngodly traditions and vayne ceremonis. Which thyng wyl be no, smal spurre, vnto our most [Page] sofuerayne lord, kyng Edward the syxt, to performe and bryng to prosperous, and ioyfull ende, that, which hys louyng father, hath begonne, so godly. And I doubte not, but now (god wyll­ynge, who neuer for saketh hys true, and faythfull seruantes, though, to trye theyr fayth, for a tyme and season, suffereth thē to be persequuted) all thynges shall be done to y, glory of god, and greate conforte of ye louing subiectes, of thys noble and flo­ryshyng realme. Among whom (as we may, easely pr [...]ceyue, by theyr dylygent and greadye comyng to the churches, whan they heare of any sermon, and preachyng) is fallē now a great hunger and thrist, not of thys materyall breaed, and drincke, but of the lyuely worde of god. [Page] But alas in stede, of y heauēly breade, y feadeth to euerlasting lyfe, they be deluded wt blind & dome ceremones. Which thing, I trust, not lōg shal cōtynew in christes churche, where ye word of god, onely should reygne, and wtout y which, purely & sincerly preached, is no church but a dē of theues. Excepte I saye these, vanytes, and pestyferous inue­tions of men: be vtterly bānysh­ed a waye it is more lyke the carnall temple of the Iues (in whose Synagoges Moyses, & the prophetes war reade euery Sabothe daye, without fayle) than the church of christe. But now, sith that it hath pleased god (whoe lokynge mercyfully vpon the affliction of his people hath sent the [...] myghtye deli­uerer) to enhaunce, and make [Page] your grace, not onely hygh pro­tector & defendour of this noble contrey of England, but also a faithfull ouerseer, of y buylding of this spirituall temple, which is the church of the lyuyng god, that, with hys precious bloode, he dyd washe, from all spote, blote, and macule, to tryūphe with hym euerlastyng lyfe, in hys heauenly kyngdome, and y towarde the same buyldyng, as in the olde lawe, towarde the settyng vp of y tabernacle some men dyd offer gold, some syluer, some precyous stones, some a gayne dyd offer purple, scarlet, and sylkes: I thoughte accor­dyng, to my pouer abylytye, be cause I coulde, offer none, of y aboue reherced thyngs to offer at lest, either some vyle gotes: skynes, or some ledde, to couer [Page] thys spirituall temple, and to keape, the rayne, and foule wea­ther, frome that gorgyous and goodly ornamentes, that other men, accordyng to their ryche, & pregnant wytts haue abun­dantly offered. It is so, that otherwhyles, for lacke of good couerture, many fayre, & goodli places, well & gorgyously trym med wtin, and decked plesantly, with gold, asure, and precious stones, doo fall in shorte space, in to great dekaye, by reason of the rayne y falleth in. Lykwyse yf a remydye, be not prouyded, that the churche of god, and ce­lestyall Ierusalem (whiche is now almost buyldyd vp agayn, and through reparated, by our godly Nehemias) may be fēsed, against y tempestuous heresis of the Anabaptistes (whyche, [Page] where soeuer the truthe dothe spryng, and begynneth to come a brode, do breake in, infectyng the myndes, of ye rude and sym­ple people, with pernitious & detestable opiniōs) surely therof, as afore of the doctryne of ye papistes great cōueniētes must neades folow. Many townes & cytyes, in Germany and in the Sussynres lande, where, the word of god dyd florish goodly affore, ware cleane subuertyd by thys abhomynable secte. of ye Catababtistys (for they ware called anabaptistys, because yt they ware autors of rebaptiza­tion, or babtizyng agayne, and Catabaptistys, because, yt they dyd speake and hold oppynyon, agaynst the baptime of childrē) in so muche, yt they had almoste extynguysshed the gosspell ther [Page] as it is more euydently shewed, in ye workes of certain famous clerkes of Germanie & Heluetia Whiche incomoditie and hurte, that it maye not chan̄ce hereaf­ter, in this illustre & victorius realme of England: I haue ac­cordyng to my small learnyng, enterprised, to translate out of latin, in to englyshe a litell trea­tie, that ye famous clerke Henry Bullinger, hathe afore wrytten in the Germanysh tongue, and after, was translatid into latin by Leo Inde, byshope of Tigure agaynste the pestiferous venime of the Anababtistes. Wherein the false and pernicious oppini­ons of these antichristes, are so clerkely both by scriptures, and also good learnynge, confuted▪ that it is impossible, where such [Page] bokes, shallbe dilygently per [...] ­syd, and reade, that this cursyd heresie shulde take any place. This shallbe therfore an holsōe Antidotus or conterpoyson a­gaynst suche pestilent doctrines Which I dooe, most humbly of­fer & dedicate vnto your grace, as vnto hym, that wyll, with all his myght, and godly power, see that the worde of god, shallbe e­uerie where, pureiy and sincer­ly preachyd, & that, as a tender father, wolde be full lothe also, yt any suche erronious doctryne, shoulde creepe in, to infecte the louinge, and faithfull subiectes of thys realme, desyrynge, and moste mekely besichynge youre grace, to accepte this my rude labour, which I haue bestowed in translating this fyrste boke, beinge alwayes readie, at your [Page] graces commandement, to translate the other .iii. as sone, as god will gyue me grace, who of his infinite bountuousenesse, preserue your grace, and al the noble counseil of England, long to continue, in loue, welth, & pros­peritee, in our lorde and sauiour Iesu Christe, to whō be praise, ho­nour and glory, world without ende.

AMEN.

By your humble and poore oratour Iohn Verone.

The fyrste, boke againste the errours of the Auababtistes, diuided into dia­logues, wherof, the enterloquutors are, Ioiada, who representeth the true christen man▪ & Symon, that taketh the Auababtistes parte.

How that the worlde, is easisy deceiued, and brought to diuision, by fass doctrine.

Ioiada.

THat truely, whiche the wise men of the heathen, dyd com­playne vpon, saiyng that al mortal men, are exceadyng studiouse, of new thynges, appeareth now to bee true: in so muche that thei doe suffer them selues wilfully to be begyled, and vtterly spoyled, by shameful and abhominable im­postours & deceauers (so that [Page] thei be commended, with hypo­crisy, and vaine blandiloquence or flatteryng) although this thing (if any man, shulde esteme it after humaine reason) is by it selfe, bothe myserable, and full of horrour, yet notwithstondyng, it owght most of all, to be lamented, among vs Christen men, whiche haue sure and defi­nite, shorte and moste approued groundes or foundacions, bothe of our faithe and of our lyuyng, wher vpon, we may surely leine, and truste, not suffryng our sel­ues, thus to be caried about and tossed to and fro, by suche erro­neouse persons. But surely, our synnes, & infidelitie do deserue it, whiche dooe heare daiely the worde of god, but do not receiue it, with a true herte, sekyng, I can not tell, what other thyng [Page] beside the glorie of god, and true innocencie of lyfe Therfore, are we deseruyngly gyuen, in to a reprobate mynde, and in to all kynde of filthinesse and abhominacion.

Symon

Lo I set the man, whome I haue loked for, agreate whyll. But is it he, in dede whome I see comynge he­therward, to mete me, or not? I wyll speke vnto hym.

God spede, moste wellbeloued brother. Arte thou not

Ioiada.

with whome, I dyd familyarly lyue, in the citie of Lyons. Tell me I praie the, how doest thou? Are all thinges safe, or well? Or what thinge, maketh the, to go, so pensyf, and troublyd in thy mynde?

Ioiada.

As tou­chinge my selfe, all thynges [...]e­well, thankes be vnto god, But it greueth me, that such greate [Page] dissencions, and troubles are a­mong Christen men. And al­though suche debates and stri­fes, be neither necessary, nor profitable, for any maner of thyng, yet not withstondyng we dooe see, the poore symple people, to be, on euery syde intangled with the errours of the Anababtistes I am bothe asshamed and sorie also, that suche blyndnesse doeth reigne, that men, can not see, what misfortune doeth folowe, whersoeuer these anababtistes, doe fixe or set their feate. Sure­ly, it did behoue, that thei shuld haue perceaued, and espied such thynges, & after that thei were ones knowen, to shunne them, & not toswarue, as muche, as the bredthe of a naile from the sure articles of the faithe.

Symon.

Tell me I praie y, if thou art a [Page] good felow. What harmes, doe these men, go about to doe? for I dare saie and affirme, that I haue not hetherto harde, that thei haue gone about any thyng, that doeth abhorre, from truthe and honesty. In the meane sea­son I know, that many thynges are imputed vnto them, falsely, moreouer that thei be accused, and blamed in many thynges, whiche thei dooe not knowlage them selues, to be gylty in.

Ioia.

I dooe heare also, that thine eies are blynded by suche men. Which if I doe, bothe heale and opē vnto the, thou wilt geue me thankes, and remembre this benefyt.

Symon.

I can not vtterly blame this sorte of men, for yet I haue not harde, that thei haue done any abhomyna­ble thyng.

Ioiada.

But I wil [Page] make it, manyfeste vnto the. This secte dyd vtterly subuerte the whole citie of Waltzhoun­tum, and did cause many of the cytezens, whyche were bothe good and ryghtfull men, to bee exyled, and to be put from their possessions. Wherfore the gos­pell (whiche dyd florysshe god­ly there) was also outrageous­ly extynguysshed. The whiche thyng dyd almoste chaunce, in a citee, called Vormantia. There were Anababtystes in Auguste, in Basile, and in Mo­rania, whiche did affyrmt, that Christe was but a prophete, sai­yng that the vngodly persones, whiche for theyr vngodlynesse were damned, and the dyuelles also, shulde enioye, the heauenly blesse. In a towne called Sanc­togallus, one of them, did smite [Page] of his owne brothers heade, the father of heauen (as he sayed) byddynge hym thus to dooe. What abhominacion they dooe commytte, vnder the pretence, and colour of spirituall matri­mony, the townes and cittees, that did oftentymes, greuously punysshe them, for suche wicked and abhominable factes, dooe manifestly shewe and testifie. And this no man can denay, but that many of them, do leaue and forsake their owne wyues and children, yea all offyce and ho­nesty beyng casted a syde, dooe lyue, feade, and fatte them sel­ues, with other mens labours, snortyng bothe daie and nyght, moste slougardely. And where as, they bee wholely gyuen to so foule and detestable sen­sualytee, they dooe interprete [Page] it, to be, the commaundemente, of the heauenly father, persua­dyng to women and honeste matrones, that it is impossible for them, to be partakerres of the kyngdome of heauē excepte thei doe abhominabli prostitute, and make common theire owne bo­dies to all men, sithe that it is, wrytten, that we muste forsake and renounce, to all thynges, y we loue best, and that we ought to suffer all kyndes of infamie, or reproche, for Christsake, be­syde that, that ye publicans, and harlottes shallbe preferred, to the ryghtwes, in the kyngdome of heauen, There is no ende, nor measure of ther infydelitie, and falshod, of their liyng and sedi­tion, with the which vices these disobedient persons are on eue­ry syde infectyd. Are these, my [Page] Symon, and other muche gre­uoser, which I dooe passe ouer here, for the nones, to be callyd vertues? Dooe they seme vnto ye yet, to haue done no vnhonest acte? Or canste thou denaye, but that thei haue done these thīges

Symon.

Truly many thinges are ascribed vnto them falsely and the fame or voyce of the people, dooeth alwayes adde som­what vnto it.

Ioiada.

That, which is sayed hetherto, maye be prouyd by sealed letters, and with sure and infalible witnes­ses. I haue here wittingly pas­sed ouer theyr abhominable cri­mes, and haue sayed, a greate deale lesse, than they haue done them selues. Therfore, it grea­uith me the more, that men are so blynde, that they can not per­ceiue, nor ponder in their hertes [Page] suche thynges. But rather, that a greate sorte of men, dooe em­brace those erroneous felowes and rennegates, eauen as, yf they ware fallen, or sent doone from heauen and were saintes amonge mortall men, whiche should preache, none other, but godly & heauēly thinges. Where as thei doe passe, in filthy liuing the Nicolantes, and Valenty­nians.

Symon.

These thīges haue ben hetherto vnknowen vnto me. And I suppose, that they be not all pollutyd, with those filthye abhominationes. But what skyllithe, to them, yt are good, what fewe among thē Dooe committe? In the hollie nūbre of the apostelles, Iudas was a traytour, and yet neuer­thelesse was callyd an apostyll. Which (I suppose) coulde not [Page] hurte the other. Moreouer thei teache so excellente and godly thynges, of god, of shunninge synnes, that I can not perceaue yt they be so wycked, and lewde. Whan they are takē, they praise and laude god, they gyue than­kes, whan they are put to death they doe constantly endure and susteyne, dyeng gladly and wyl­lynglie. This thou canste not denaye my Ioiada, wherfore I wolde gladly, that thou haddest hard them as I haue.

Ioiada.

I coulde paraduenture, bringe here fewe thynges, agaynste the excepte I knowe well alredye, all this sorte, of men and that a greate whyle a go. But I am not ingnoraunte, howe muche hipocrisye can preuayle, by the meanes of fraude and deceate. And as touchynge thyne an­swere, [Page] thou sayest very well in that, that is to wyt, that the wycked facte of fewe, shall not harme the innocent. But thou haste not yet proued, that the cause of the Anababtistes is iust and good, Nor thou canste not shewe one amonge them whiche is not commaculate, and infec­ted with some of these said vices I meane lyenge, falshode, per­iurie, disobedience, sedicion, idelnes, forsakynge of their wi­ues and chyldren, turpitude. And though all these vices doe not sticke or cleaue to them al at ones, yet not withstandyng are they euery chone pollutid with some of them. That in the mean season I should speake nothyng of their heresie, and sectes, of their pertinacie, of their false & erroneous doctrīe. And because [Page] thou saiest, that thei speake mu­che of god. I wolde faine know of the, whether thei, yt doe prea­che the gospell, doe not speake of god also?

Symon.

This thei doe greatly denaie.

Ioia.

In this thyng truely thei do wrong and iniury to the preachers of the gospell, testifiyng the con­trary to the vniuersall chyrche, that is to saie, denaiyng, that by the gospel truely and syncerely preached the people is taught to put their truste, in the onely and true lyuyng god through Iesu Christe. In so muche that among the enemies of the gos­pell, it is saied in maner of a prouerbe, that priestes doe preache nothyng elles, but of god and faith onely, beyng offēded, with this preachyng: Man is iusti­fied by faith alone.

Sym.

True­ly [Page] the mattier is so.

Ioiada.

Now therefore if the Catababtistes, dooe teache of god and faithe o­therwise, surely thei dooe blas­pheame god and seduce the peo­ple. And if thei doe teache, all one thing with vs (for so it must be, if thei doe teache ryght, and accordynge to the scriptures) why doe thei therfore separate them selues from vs. Or is not that sufficient, that we teache, sythe that we dooe teache bothe one thyng?

Sym.

There is one thyng, that ye wyll not teache, that is to saie, that thei, whiche are godly, shulde not sinne at al. And again sinners are not shunned of you Nor ye will not sepa­rate your selues, from this pol­luted, and wicked worlde.

Ioiad.

We were taught by our sauiour Iesu Christ, that thei, that are [Page] whole, haue no neade of the phi­sycian, but thei that art sycke. For the Pharisees dyd obiecte the same to y disciples of Christ, saiyng: Why doeth your maister eate with sinners? furthermore seyng that no man liueth with­out synne, not as muche, as the infaunt of one daie: we owght not to teache, that men shoulde not synne at all, but rather to repent daiely and hourely, and to beware of sinne, as of a snake, and that the godly owght not to dispaire, if thei fall, at any tyme As for the sinnes, that are com­mitted openly, thei are so exa­gitate or rebuked by the mini­sters of the churche. Suche se­ueritee and extreme grauitee is vsed in rebukyng, that theyr e­nemies are wont to saie alredy, that thei can none other thyng, [Page] but chide and braule. Agayne, touchynge abstencion or sepa­ratyng, we doe not see that euer Christe did the same, as long as there was any hope. We doe not separate our selues, least we be­come like vnto the Pharisees, Luc. xviii.

Symon.

But sinnes are not forsaken.

Ioiada.

And that, owght not to bee imputed to the doctrine, but to them, whiche doe not folow the teachyng. The teachyng and doctrine (as thou grauntest thy selfe) is hol­some, and in it, nothing is wan­tyng or lackynge. What other thyng doe then, the Catababti­stes, in teachyng the contrary, but shew theyr pertinacy and a certaine syngularitee or loue of them selues, wherby it cometh to passe, that nothyng but that, which thei doe them selues pleaseth [Page] them? As this, is not done, without affection, so it can not be without vice.

Symon.

And yet not withstandyng, thou do­est not beleue, how deuout they are to god, how full of constan­cy and grauitee, how feruently thei loue god.

Ioiada.

I can not beleue, yt this deuocion of theirs is without blame, or is syncere and pure. For thei diuide the churche, where no neade is. For thou canst not denaie, but that god, is taught by vs truely and faithfully. And that synnes are reprehended and rebuked, with great libertee and constauncie. What doe thei therfore, that we doe not, saue onely, that thei doe separate them selues, frō other, and are full of obstinacie? Do­eth not Sathā also transforme him selfe, into an āgell of light? [Page] What merueill is therfore, if these impostours or deceitfull persons, can faine them selues, to be sheapeherdes? Thei that doe fisshe, dooe not caste a bare hooke before the fysshes, but doe hyde & couer it, with some plea­saunt and swete baite. And Ca­to did saie veary well. Whiles the byrder, the byrdes begyleth, The flute alwai swetely pipeth. Nor he is not so foolisshe, as for to set or laye his net before the birdes eies. Did not the bisshop of Rome seduce vs so many ye­res, with his peincted hipocri­sie, and with his godly and dy­uyne dissimulacion and fraude? But these thynges are gon out of remembraunce, sythe that we doe, so lyghtly addicte or bynde our selues, to these newe impo­stours, and hipocrites. By what [Page] craftes, did monkes get so gret richesses, was it not, by flatte­ryng, and hypocrisie? Was it not, by a feined sanctimony, and holynesse of lyfe? As for that, yt thei doe reioyce, when thei are taken, & dye gladly, with pray­syng and laudyng god, thou do­est so exaggerate and extoll it, as though these thynges (if thei be done) shulde shewe and proue that their doctrine is true, and that their deedes are good. If thou canst proue that, it shall folowe, that theft and robbery, be iuste and good deedes also. For whan thei be punisshed at the galows, or vpon the whele, thei doe oftentymes suffer it pa­ciently, & moreouer, doe praise & laude god. Who is so folysshe, to thynke, that he maye thus make his argument? This man [Page] is tormented and punisshed, & yet not withstandynge, dooeth gyue thankes: ergo, he is a iust man & holy. If any man, shulde contende, that this doeth folow, he muste nedes to graunt also, that the religion of the Iues, is moste holy, yea, that their reli­gion onely is true. For no man▪ doeth pacientlyer endure, to the very death, for his religion, thā the Iues doe. How many here­tikes were there (thinkest thou) which did moste constantly suf­fer death, testifiyng, wt their oūe blood, that thei had taught the truthe. Do not oftētime robers & traitours, which suffer death, accordīg to their deseruyng, stifly defend their innocencie, to the last breath? Is therfore y cause of such an obstacle and desperat man, iustified before god? Who [Page] doeth not perceiue, y the farther he is from repentance and con­fession, so muche the worse he is

Symon.

It is so as, thou saiest, nor I can not saie, againste it. But this is moste to be lamen­ted, that we, whiche are simple persons, are so tossed and caried to and fro, in so muche, that we can not tel, what is beste to bee doone. The Anababtistes dooe saie, that ye doe erre, and ye saie agayne, that thei be out of the right waie. After my iudgemēt, what misery so euer, or trouble there is, it dooeth come of the priestes. And I dooe thinke, yt ther were neuer so troublesome tymes. It were peraduenture better, that I folowyng myne owne mynde, shuld beleue, none of you al, doyng al thinges after myne owne appetite, and witte.

Ioiada.
[Page]

Thou shalt not do so, my Symō, but now, learne by thine own self what good, doeth come of the anababtistes & what thou hast sucked of thē, for thou doest shew openly, ye fruite, that is to saie, desperacion, and to trust in thi self, hast thou forgottē, what god hath commaunded, in Deuteronomy? saiyng: ye shal not do euery man, y, which semeth good vnto you, but that, which y lord hath commanded. So this phā ­tasticall & new fangled men, do intangle wt them selues, other men, & cast thē hedlyng, into all errours. But ye your selues, are in the faulte, being the autors of your one harmes, for such deceitful persons, do please you. By & by, as sone as any cōtencious body, or some new & vnaccustomed thing, doeth set forthe his head, ye come rēning by troppes, & neither [Page] warninges nor praiers nor rebukes can auaile among you. And whan ye be come into y bo­tomles pit of miserie or myschef ye put ye faulte in the ouerseers, which do geue you warnyng be­fore, wt great fidelitie & trothe. Whose admonitions if ye would here, or rather gyue eares to ye word of god preched vnto you, & setforth by thē, ye might liue pesibly, seīg therfore, yt ye cast yourselues through your onefoli, īto such perplexites ye haue no caus to īpute it, to y faithfull sheap­herdes, whiche warned you be­for to beware of such thīgs exhorting you to peace, charite, & cō ­cord, but to your oūe selues.

Sy.

I haue said y, which I do thīke yet, y ther was neuer a more troblous world, who so euer ar ye autors of it.

Io.

wilt thou know what ye mattier is? this thīg do [Page] stirre vp sedition and timulltie, y ye do make euery rascal knaue minister of gods word, and that without any descretion. Besyde this, thou shewest thiselfe vtter­lie ignoraunte in histories, and vnexperte of wordely thynges, which doest scarsely knowe, the actes of one age, nor doeiste not cōsider farther, than is at hand. If thou haddest redde the hollie gospelles & actes of the Apostel­les, thou shouldest haue founde greuouser dissentions, whiche did rise of the sermons of Christ and of his apostelles. Finallie that histories are full of tumul­tes, which dyd spryng in tymes paste, of the false oppinions of Marcion, Valentinus, Arrius, Nestorius Enriches, Donatus, Pelagius, and other heretikes. Ther were great tumultes and [Page] rebellions, not onely of cities & townes, but also of whole real­mes, which wer so great, yt ours owght not to be compared with them. Did not bothe christ himselfe, and his apostels gyue warnyng before, that sectes, should aryse? Not because, that for thē we should be amasyd, or despair vtterly, but because, that wee should ye more dilygently watch against suche pestiferous sectes not onely to auoyde and shunne them, but to resiste also. Paule doeth apertely saye, Corin. ii. that sectes muste be, that thei which ar faithful, maye be kno­wen. For euen as a sieue doeth not lise the corne, but clensithe from chaffe and darnell, so the wheate of faithfull men, doeth not perishe by false doctrines, but is tryed, the duste and chaffe [Page] beeng sifted out. Ihon saieth: Thei wēt out from vs but they ware not of vs, for if thei had bē of vs they trulie shoulde had re­mayned wt vs. Therfor we haue nede of cōstaunce & fortitude or strenght, nor we ought not in [...]ō ­tinētly to forsake the sterne but resist corageously y waues and stormes. This cōstācy & perseueraunce in the tēpeste is a token that wee are not light, but haue beleued stedfastly and wel. Ten­tations are signes or proues of faith and of ye truth, and do ma­nifest & shew, how farre we haue beleued to ye true veritee.

Sy.

Thy meaning is good Seinge therfore yt thou shewest thyselfe so frendly toward me, & that we haue begōe ones to commone of these thīges: I wil opē my whol mid vnto ye cōfering many and [Page] sondry thinges wt the, touching Catababtisme or oppiniōs of y Anababtistes, if so be y thou hast time & leasyr to heare me.

Ioiada.

I wil gladly obey the and folow thy mynd. If thou hast any thīg bring it forth, ī gods name. Sy I do meruell, if ther is no good thing, in the doctrine and oppinions of the Anababtistes. For vnto me, it semeth much other­wyse, yt is to say, y ther be many thinges strongly grounded vpō the scriptures.

Ioiada.

This is all the good, that is in it, that it caus [...]the a greate meanye to reade the scriptu­res, whiche elles wolde but lyttell, studye in them. As for that whiche they teache well, they haue it commune wt vs, all the resydue wyll I pro­ue to bee false and foolyshe. [Page] I am mynded to wryte hereaf­ter agaynst thē wherfore I had noted agaynste their doctrine, certayne conclusions, which the greatest parte of them doe holde For agaynst suche vngodly and blasphemous rēnegates, which doe reiecte the scriptures, which doe affyrme that the deuelles and vngodly or vnfaithfull persones shall obtaine at length, the euerlastynge life, doe denaye the god head of Christe, and commite opēly with out all shame suche enorme and abho­mynablee actes, what neade is it to wrytte? But now wyl set in order my conclusions,

The second treatie or dialoge.

[...] conclusions agaynste the doc­tryne of the Anababtistes, put here af­firmatyuely▪ euen as Ioiada which [...]pr [...]senteth the faithfull christen man doeth holde them.

Ioiada.

That spirite, which re­pugnith agaynst the meanyng of the spi­rite that speaketh in the holy scriptures, is not from the father of truthe but from the father of lies the deuell.

None of the Saintes dyd e­uer by violence or force, set forthe or thruste them sel­ues in to the commune office of a preacher, saue onely whan they ware sente by god, elected and [Page] chosen, by the apostells and churche.

CHriste and the apostels did neuer trouble ye churche for yerthly and temporal thinges, but did chiefly study to nourysshe the peace and vnitee of al the churches. It appereth ther­fore, that thei, whiche doe trou­ble & diuide any churches being wel ordeined & pacified in christ for such thynges, are sedicious, lyers and heretykes.

THei are to bee counted false prophetes, which not with­out blasphemy & contempte of the crosse of Christ, doteache, that Christ dyd take awaie one­ly origynall synne, affirmyng that thei, which doe fail againe, after that thei be ones purified, [Page] and clensed by the water of re­generacion, shal not obteine daily remission of their synnes. Thei be also false prophetes, y doe attribute or adscrib iustifi­cation to our owne workes.

Suche are blasphemous agaīst the gospell, which doe contēd and affirme that the soules do slepe, after this lyfe not kno­wyng the nature of the soule, nor the vertue of the resurrecci­on of Chrfst.

Rebabtization or babtizing agayne, is not of god, but a new secte deuiding the v­nitie of the churche, wherby the most pestiferous, and hurtefull heresie, of Nonatus, Anpencius and Pelagius is renewed.

[Page] THe babtime of yong infan­tes is of god, whiche hath ben & did continue alwaies in the churche, sens the tyme of ye Apostels vnto this tyme, & not lately brought in, by y byshops.

THe office or example of any christen man, cōpelleth not that we should not haue all thynges in cōmon, and nothyng priuate, or to our selues, but do­eth moue & [...]orage vs to care, and see to our houshold, to exer­cise liberalitee and mercie.

SVche are therfore [...]poters & [...]ules of christes flocke whiche d [...] forsake their fami­lye and houshold, and beyng ad­d [...]ed or geuen to sedicious fa­bles, do f [...]de them selfes, with o­ther mens laboures, beynge in [Page] this thyng, most like vnto mon­kes, whiche dyd the same, with their hypocrisye.

THe preachers of the gospell, or ministers of the worde of god, maye haue goodes of their own, that is to say howses and possessions, and moreouer maye liue of the gospell.

THat the Anababtistes ar so enuious, and do imagine al wayes and forge calumnia­cions and lyes, who dooeth not see that it commeth of a hatered that they haue against the prea­chers of the gospell, that they may crepe in and aduaunce thē selues, e [...]tenuatyng therfore the faythfulnes and fidelitee of the sheapeheardes before the com­mons, because they may the bet­ter [Page] bee, beleued them selues?

CHristen men, whiche are ryghtfully chosen, may wt out any offēce of god be are rule, sith that power is the my­nister of god.

THis power is not onely profitable, but also necessarie, for christen men, therfore we must be obedient vnto it, ac­cording to the doctrine of christ, Peter and Paule.

THey which wyll not be obe­dient to the common ma­gistrates and rulers, or do resist against them, doyng them at any tyme wrong and reproch fulnes, be not christen men, but Sanlonites

[Page]

THei that refuse to make laufull othes, vnto the publike rulers, do manyfestlye a­gainst the wyl of god, beyng au­tours of sedicion, and all dyso­bedience.

THe magistrate and rewler hath the sworde from God, wherwith he may smite the malefactours, and shed the blud of wicked dooers, that both the malefactours may be punysshed and the good and righteous liue surely among the wicked.

THe libertie of a christen mā is not carnall, they there­fore that in the gospell, do seke carnall thynges and flesh­ly, are the fellowes of Symon Magus.

[Page] VVe doe not learne in y gos­pell, that we shuld pay nei­ther rentes nor tithes, but that we ought to paie, our deb­tes, vnto whom so euer we owe any thyng.

THe administraciō of bodily thynges doeth perte [...]ue to y magistrates & rulers, whi­che doe christen men lyke, whan thei doe after this rule: what so euerye will that men doe vnto you, doe the same vnto other.

VVho so euer kepeth this law & rule, may be, and re­mayne stil a christen man, though he receiueth bothe ren­tes and tithes.

These articles haue I, here put generally, because that a great parte of y Anababtistes do hold against them▪ for I know, y it is [Page] impossible yt any man should re­herse al their errours sith yt thei be īfinit & wtout number For it is no meruel yt thei do fall, from one errour into an other, seyng, yt thei haue not ye same spirite of truthe. Whiche thyng causeth yt so dyuerse & contrary sectes, do aryse among them, that the one doeth condemne and excommu­nicate the other.

Symon.

If thou haddest rehersed these arti­cles before them, thou couldest not haue done it, wtout a [...] and sharpe answere.

Ioiada.

I haue proued, my Symon, and that a greate whyle a go, their poysoned, and v [...]d hert [...]s, and tounges, bothe ready to all kynd of reuyling, and opprobri­ousues, and also more bytter, than is any worme wode, wher by any man maye coniecte and [Page] knowe, of what spirite, these phātastical felowes doe speake. But reade thou, the thryde cha­piter, of the epystell of saincte Iames, and thou shalte knowe that I saye true.

Symon.

I praie the, that thou wylt reherse, out, of this chapiter, the thinges, yt moste chyefly, doe for our pour­pose,

Ioiada.

These are the wordes of the apostel: Who is wyse, and endued with knolage amonge you (Let hym shewe, by his good conuersacion, his wor­kes, with a gentell wysdome. If so be, that ye haue bytter enuye and contencion, in your hertes, dooe not ye boaste of it, nor be liers againste the truth. For that wisdome, is not connyng from aboue, but yerthly beaste­lyke, and deauelyshe. For where tnuye and contentacion, is, ther [Page] is incōstancie and wicked wor­kes. But the wisedom whiche is from heauen or from aboue first is chaste, after peasible, meake, tretable, full of mercie, and of good fruites, withoute rache or vnaduised iudgement, and simulacion Hitherto haue we reher­sed the wordes of Iames. Pon­der and iudge now, whether the holy Apostle, did not liuelye de­scribe the fashions, and doctrin of the Anababtistes. For what do they els, but ineth and rayle against other men, and that of a despitefull enuye and bitternes, oppressing thē wt preiudicial sē ­tence, and iudgemēt?

Sy.

They promesse to make an aunswere, before any manne, and to geue a reasonable accoumpt of their doctrine and learnyng.

Moreouer that they wyll suffer [Page] them selues patiently to be con­uicted of errour.

Ioiada.

Why dooe they promesse that whiche thei wil neuer perfourm? Thou thy selfe haste knowen manye (to saye the truthe, they doe all of a pretudiciall sentence, stiflie and with great pertinacy, stād in their owne oppinions which saied, that thei ware sufficiētly tawght. dyd knoledge their er­roure, and offered them selues to recante, yea and dyd forswe­re their errour. And by and by as sone, as they ware come, to their complyces or felowes, thei dyd renewe their heresee, and against their othe, and all ho­nestye besyde, dyd obstinatly defende it, What should we doe with suche men? Paule sayeth: Shunne thou an heretyke, after that thou hast warned hym ōes [Page] or twyse. Their doctrine ther­fore, is a certaine pertenax con­tention, and bitter wysdome, suche as Saynt Iames doeth descrybe.

Symon.

In the meane season, they wyll neuer graunt, thy conclusions to be true.

Ioiada.

This is, that I saye thei be more styfe & more obsta­cle thā doeth be come any christē men, to be. But thou, that haste lyued, most famylyarly wt them knowest wel and perfitly, their foundacions, where vpon they grounde them selues.

Symon.

No Anababtyst better.

Ioiada.

I wolde therfore, my Symon. that thou shouldest now dispute agaynst my conclusions as the Anababtistes are wonte to doe but without stomake and contē cion I wyll endeuoure my selfe to corroborate and streingthen [Page] them with holy scripures, and to proue that they be true.

Sym.

Be it as thou saiest. For I de­sire to be taughte. Thou shalte haue me also obe­diente. so that I may vnderstande and perceiue yt thy doctrine and teachyng is true. ❧

The third treatie or dialoge.

How that the spirite, which repugneth agaynst the spirite, that speaketh in the scriptures, is not from the fa­ther of truth, but from the father of lyes the deuels.

Symon.

Fyrste and formost, I dooe meruell, what moueth the, to put this conclusiō where as after myne oppy­nion and iudgmēt, it is no nede, therof.

Ioiada.

But, it semeth vnto me, to be verye necessarye. For manie of the Anababtistes, doe boaste, I can not tel, what spirite, and father, agaynste the manyfest scriptures. For whan they perceiue them selues, to bee ouer comed, with holye scriptu­res, and so holden in that they [Page] can, by no waye escape: by and by, they crye oute, sayeng that the spiritee, teacheth them, an other thyng, that is to saye, eyther to holde theyr peace, or to speake forthe some tryflyng matter▪ and that they bee, ney­ther subiecte, ne bound to the litterall sense, or letter. In the which thyng, they dooe no lesse erre, than the doctoures of the bysshope of Rome, which in matters of fayth, wyll not admyt the scripture to be iudge, but re­ferre al thynges, to theyr inter­pretation and spiritee. Is not this an hygh blasphemie, that a sinnefull man shoulde presume, to sete hym selfe iudge, ouer the word and wyl of god? asthough he ought not, to bee obedient vnto it, excepte, he were moued, with his owne spiritee, and mo­cion, [Page] to reiecte, or receiue it. I harde ones a papiste doctour, openly in a disputaciō, saie: that we, whiche teache the gospell, dooe teache the truthe, and dyd alowe our teachynge veary well, but that he coulde not, nor durste subscribe vnto it, ex­repte our teachynge were ad­probated and alowed, by the bisshoppe of Rome. Beholde my Symon, what abhominacion is this, that a mortall man shulde take vpon hym, to adprobate, & alowe, the diuine and heauenly veritee? and set hym selfe iudge ouer god? Therfore haue I put this conclusion in the forefront because that the Anababtistes, doe for y moste parte, boast and aduaunce their spirite, vnder such pretence, deceiuyng the simple and rude people.

Symon.

[Page]Doeth not Paule teache this, that the letter, doeth kylle, and the spirit viuifieth or doeth quieken? ii. Corin. iii And Christe doeth saie. Ioan. xiiii. The spi­rite shall teache you all truthe. It is spoken by the lorde also, Hieremy. xxxi. Euery man shall teache no more his neyghbour, saiyng: knowe thou the lorde, but all shall knowe hym, from the lowest, to the hyghest: Fi­nally, Iohn dooeth saie: It is no neede, that euery man dooe teache you, but as the vnction teacheth you of all thinges whi­che is true and is no lye. What canst thou saye, agaynst so ma­nyfeste scriptures?

Ioiada.

To the woordes of Paule I aun­sweare thus: That Paul spea­keth there of the lawe, whyche [Page] kylleth vs, as he dooeth declare more apertly in the .vii. chap. to the Romains. And by the spirit, he vnderstondeth faith, and the consolacion or comforte of the gospell. That, it is so, the texte of the whole chapter dooeth te­stifie. Therefore this place hel­peth nothyng your errour. For whan we speake of the woorde of god we dooe not vnderstonde the bare and deade letter, or voyde sonnde of it. but the word well and truely vnderstonded, and as it is, in veary dede.

And as, for that, that Chryste dooeth promesse a spyrite vnto his dysciples, teachynge them all thynges, wee dooe admytte and beleue it. But that spy­rite can not bee contrarye to Chryste, nor teacheth any other [Page] thyng, than Chryst hath taught Therfore doeth he adde, by and by: teachyng you, what so euer, I haue saied vnto you. What dooe, these thynges perteyne, to the spirite of the Anababtistes, whiche teacheth contrary thyn­ges to the spirite of Christe.

The prophecies of Ioel, and Hieremye, are vnderstonded of that same spirite, that Christe dooeth bothe promesse and geue to his disciples, as it is euidently sene, in the seconde chapiter of the Actes, and the eyght, to the Hebrues. Iohn, in his epi­stell, whan he speaketh of the vnctyon, dooeth playnely ex­pounde hym selfe, saiynge: I haue written vnto you, that ye bee not deceyued (or that, ye dooe not suffer your selues to be brought in to errour) whyche [Page] thyng, will then come to passe, if ye dooe stedfastely abyde, in the doctrine of the spirite, whi­che ye haue harde at the begyn­nynge, and swarue not at all, from it. The holy ghoste is the spirite of truthe, which canne neither lye, nor repugne against hym selfe, beyng all waies con­staunte, vnchaungeable, euery where, lyke vnto hym selfe.

Now, no man can denaye, but that the same euerlastyng, vn­chaungeable, and holy spirite, hath inspyred the holy scriptu­res in to holy mens hertes and myndes. Whereby it foloweth necessarily, that the same spi­rite, which speaketh agaynste the meanyng of the spirite, that dooeth speake and expresse hym selfe in the diuine scriptures, is not of god, but rather an hu­maine [Page] mayne affection, whyche, if it bee styffe, maie bee deseruyngly called, a deauelysshe spyryte, as Chryste dooeth proue agaynste the Iues. Iohn. viii. Or canst thou thynke, in thy mynde, that spirite to bee good, whiche con­temneth the cleare, manyfeste, pure and holy scriptures? and when by them, he is conuicted of errour, doeth boste an other spirite, whiche shoulde teache cleane cōtrary thinges? Is not this to despise y spirite of y scriptures, and to repugne against hym? As though our spirit meaneth truely, and the spirit of the scriptures most falsely? Where haue the Anababtistes learned, to set their spirit against y scriptures, yea and preferre hym, to the holy worde of god?

Symon.

[Page]But who hath geuen you this libertee, to iudge al thynges af­ter the litterall sence or letter?

Ioiada.

That, we dooe not, as thou doest interprete the letter. But we saie, that the worde of god, conteined in the scriptures of the Bible, is a touche stone, wherby spirites are tried. For what spirite so euer doeth agree with the scriptures, is of god, the father of truthe. And a­gayne what spirite so euer is contrary to the holy scriptures, is of the dyuelle, the father of lyes. Seyng therfore, that the spyrite of the Anababtistes, wil not bee ruled by the holy scrip­tures, but preferreth hym selfe, to the woorde of god (callynge by crafte, the woorde of god, a bare letterre) yea and sette [Page] set him selfe iudge ouer it, he cā ­not be of god. For if he were of god, he would come to light and speake that same thyng, that the holy ghost doeth speake in al the holy scriptures. But now, sith yt he doeth not depende of the scriptures, but will be at his own ly­bertie, it is a token that it is a craft and subtiltie of the deuell, whiche doeth alwayes scatter & repugne against god.

Sy.

Thou speakest these thynges mightily and stronglye, but withoute the word of god. And this is your familier custome, to speake many thinges without scriptures. As touching the spirite, what he te­cheth, I haue brought and alledged places and testimonies oute of the scriptures. But that the spirit ought to be tried by scrip­tures, or rather mācipated and [Page] bounde vnto them, and not be at his own libertie, it is thy parte for to proue. Or peraduenture thou dost prefer the creature vnto the creatour.

Ioi.

What, and yf I should say also: My spirite hath taught me this thyng. What couldest thou do or say vnto me?

Sym.

But that is not to aunswere.

Ioi.

Nor ye do not answere sufficiently, when ye bost your spirite, without or agaynst the scriptures. But in this thīg we do learne, that whan it plea­seth you, ye vse the scriptures, & agayne whan ye see to be expede ent, ye boaste, aud aduance your spirit. Whan I affirme that the spirite must be tried by the scriptures, I doe not mancipate nor subdue the creatour vnto y creature, but I will that the thynge whiche is vncertaine, be tryed & [Page] proued, by yt, which is certaine, and that any spirit, be tried, by the holy spirit of god, that is to saie by the scriptures, whether he agreeth with hym self or not. And if he be like euery where vnto him self to be receiued, if not, to be refused & reiected, as false & deceitful. But whan ye speake of the spirite, ye doe vnderstond a bare creature. For your spirit is not the holy ghost, but a car­nall affection.

Sy.

Ye dooe yet without any scriptures of the Bible enhaunce and magnifie, the letter.

Io.

Not so, but ra­ther, we here ground ourselues, bothe vpon ye scriptures of god, and vpon examples.

Sy.

Shew therfore, yt the truthe, muste be tryed, by the scriptures, & not rather wt a fre spirit, without scriptures.

Io.

By thy wordes, doe [Page] I perceine, what thinge doeth begile you, that is, yt ye do seuer these .ii. thinges, beyng vnited & inuisebly knitted together, yt is to saie, the spirite & the scriptu­res, which can nor ought to be separated asunder, the one from ye other. For whē we name ye scriptures, we doe vnderstande ye ex­pressed worde of yt spirit. For as ye voice, or sound of ye worde, can in no wise be separated, from ye lyuely breth of ye liuing creature So ye scriptures can not be diuided from ye spirit yt inspireth thē for ye scripture, is ye expressed wil of god, but now wil I bryng ye testimonies & places wt thou requirest, our lord Iesu Christ, vnto whom ye heuēly father, did geue witnes from heuen, & who hath receiued the holy ghost, after no measure, did not despise ye scip­tures, in so muche that he dyd [Page] corroborate all his saiynges, by them onely, and did commaund that the Iewes should trye both his woordes and factes, by the scriptures. Ihon. v. and Luke xvi. He biddeth them to lyfte vp their eyes to Moyses & the pro­phetes, and not to apparaunte spirites. He reprouyng also the Saduceis, did shewe that this was the cause of their errour, be cause that they were ignoraunt in scriptures, or neglected them Mark .xii. The Apostles (as we may vnderstand by the booke of the Actes) did receiue abundātly in the beginyng, the holy gost & that by a sertaine visible tokē. And yet not withstandyng, did thei not therfore forsake or con­tēne ye scriptures, nor boste their spirite against thē. But rather did proue & strengthen all their [Page] sermons, with the worde of god preachyng nothyng els, but the pure and playne scriptures. These thynges are euydently proued, by the epistels of Peter. Iohn doeth plainely shewe and teache that the spirites owght, to be tried, whether thei bee of god or not .i. Io. iiii. Wherby, it is euydent enowgh, that spiri­tes owght to be tried, and that thei be not so free, as the Ana­habtistes will haue them. And how thei muste bee proued, it is manifestly declared in yt place. Paule whiche was rauisshed, in to the thyrde heauen, and dyd learne his gospel of Iesu Christ, beyng hym selfe, the chosen ves­sel of god, full of the holy ghost, and heauenly wisedome, neuer the lesse before the kyng Agrip­pa, he doeth testify, that he dyd [Page] teache nothyng beside Moises, and the prophetes. Act. xxvi. In the epistell to the Galathians, ye first chapter, he saieth thus: if I, or an angel of heauen, shulde preach vnto you, any other thīg, then ye haue harde, let it be ana­thema, or acursed, He also war­nyng and teachyng Tymothe, that be shoulde beware of false and erroneous doctrines, dyd directe and sende hym, to the re­dyng of scriptures. But reade thou the iii. chapiter of the se­conde epistell, to Tymothe, and it shall appere, what we owght to iudge and thynke of the Ana­babtistes secte, what of the spi­rite, and of the scriptures.

Sy.

That place, is knowen well e­nowghe, and I am almost per­suaded. But this vexed my mynde, that Paule saieth that [Page] a spirituall man, iudgeth all thynges, but he is iudged of no body.

Ioiada.

I longe to knowe of the, of what spirite, Paule doeth speake there.

Symon.

But I haue leauer to heare it, of the

Ioiada.

Considre the woordes, yt go before. For he saieth thus: We haue not receiued the spirit of the world, but the spirit, whi­che is of god, that we may know what thynges, haue ben geuen vnto vs by Chryst.

Symon.

But to what purpose did Paul speke here, of the holy ghost.

Ioiada.

I aske of the, wheather yt same selfe spirite dyd not inspyre the scriptures.

Symon.

Truely, that same selfe spirite.

Ioiada.

Seyng therfore, that it is all one, and bothe the same spirite, that Paule speaketh of here, and that whiche speaketh in the [Page] scriptures, haue I not proued, that Paule, by a spirituall man did not vnderstond hym, which boasteth, I can not tell, what spirite, despisyng in the meane season the scriptures, but suche a spirituall man, as is and will be ruled and gouerned by the holy ghost, that waie, that he shew­eth and expresseth hym selfe, in the holy scriptures? He therfore that striueth againste the holy scripture and inspiracyon of the holy ghost, can not bee that spirituall man, whome Paule doeth speke of. Now, if he be not spirituall, he can not iudge, but he muste be iudged. The Ana­babtistes therfore can iudge no­thyng, but ought to bee iudged and tryed, by the worde of god. Hathe not here the spirite of the Anababtistes lost bothe his win [Page] ges? But I do remembre other ii. places, whiche dooe vtterly stoppe the mouthes of the Cata­babtistes. The first is, in the .x. chapiter of the Actes, touchyng Cornelius the centurion, which although he was elected by god, yet not withstandyng, beyng so tawght by the angell, did sende messangers, to fetche Peter, yt he migh heare by hym, the prea­chīg of our sauiour Iesu christ. If that, the spirite should disa­nulle and abolisshe the scriptu­res, it shulde folow, yt this out­warde preachyng and such like thinges, wer done in vaine. The other is in the .xvi. chapiter, concernyng the Thessaloniens, whiche after that thei had harde the preachyng of Paule, dyd daily seke and serche the scriptures, to knowe, wheather Paule dyd [Page] teache true or not. Which thing, thei wolde not haue done, if the spirites shoulde not be tried by the scriptures wherefore what so euer the Anababtistes dooe teache concernyng this thynge, is false and erroneous, and not vnlike vnto the errour of Mon­tanus.

Sym.

What monstruous thyng is yt?

Ioiada.

This Montanus about .xiii. hundred ye­res a go, was a great heretike, who did almost speake of the spirite, as the Anababtistes dooe. For thei do cal in again, the old & abolisshed errours, as it shall appere hereafter.

Sym.

Go forth I praie ye, and let vs discusse the argumentes of the second con­clusion. For I can not beleue that none of the saynttes (whi­che thyng thou doest affirme stifly) did thruste them selues, into [Page] the office of common preachers, excepte thei were called. What other thyng is this, but (as the bisshop of Rome hath done in ti­mes paste) to hyde the truthe frome the commons, that none, saue onely thei, that are lear­ned, dare speake and talke of it? Where as, not withstandynge, god did manifest him self to the littell ones and not to the wise. Mathew. xi.

Ioiada.

I will doe it gladly, but I wil first confute that, which thou bryngest of the learned, & of the symple. For it is not conuenient, that I shulde passe ouer these thynges vnspo­ken, sithe that therwith ye doe blynd the eyes of the simple and rude people.

The .iiii. treatie, or dialoge touchynge simplicitee and erudicion.

Symon.

IS this, to blynde the eies of the symple, & rude people, Chryste hym selfe, did saie so, when he gaue than­kes vnto his father, because y he hath reuelated & shewed such high, godly and diuine misteri­es, not to the wises, but to the litell ones, & to the simple. Ma. xi. And againe, he did not chose learned men but simple and i­diots, to be his apostels .i. Cor. i. Therfore we haue no neede of great learnyng, but the simpler that any man is, the more apte is he, to this office.

Ioiada.

It is manifeste and euident, that ye vnderstonde not the woordes [Page] of Chryst. For if by the symple, he shulde vnderstond them, that lacke wisedome and learnynge (for so ye expounde the wordes of Christ) truely no man shulde be more apt, than fooles and di­serdes, whiche be in dede igno­raunt in all maner of thinges. But euery man dooeth see, that it is against al reason, to thinke any such thyng. Therfore Christ vnderstondeth by simplicitee an other thyng.

Symon.

Tell you what it is.

Ioiada.

He is cal­led a symple man, not he that is without witte, without reason and wisdome, but he whiche is playne and sincere, and without fraude, he whiche is good, and true inwardly in his herte, be­ynge without crafte and deceit. Elles it woulde come to passe, that euery man shoulde defende [Page] his errour, by ignorancie. Whi­che thyng, what coulde be elles, but a carnall malice or libertee, wherby euery man woulde be­gynne and goe about, to boaste and sette forthe hs ignorancie, and therewith to defende his er­rours? Who did euer see, suche temerarious audacitee, as these shamefull rennegates dooe vse? that with theyr ignorancie and rudenesse dare defende any thynge? By ignorauncy truely, errours are detected, and not confyrmed.

Symon.

Yet, the a­postels were ignoraunt and vn­learned, nor we dooe not reade, that Chryst did choose any that were learned.

Ioiada.

Truely thei were endued with such sim­plicitee, as we haue spoken of a­fore. But they were not vnler­ned and ignoraunt. For they [Page] were familiarly cōuersant with Chryste, aboue three yeares, wt Christ, I say, in whom are, all y treasures wisdō of & knowlage, yea, which is hymself, yt eternal wisedome of y heauenly father. Of this fountaine drāke they a­bundantly, by this maister, wer thei instituted and tawght, and at lengthe were so endued, and illuminated with the holy ghost that they were [...]unnynge in all tonges & scriptures. That may be sene, bothe by their writyngs and also by theyr actes. As for that, that thou denaiest, y christ did call none, whiche were lear­ned, doest thou not repugne here agaīst y manifest truthe? Paull was excedyngly well lerned.

Barnabas, Gamaliell, Nicode­demus, & Apollo y Alexandrian were great clerkes. That in the [Page] meane season, I shulde passe o­uer all the other, that is to saie, Moises, whiche was learned in al the sciences of the Egipcians Steauen, Esaie, Timothe, loke better vpon the .xiii. chap. of the first epistel, to the Corinthians, and vpon the first chap. of the e­pistell, to Citus, and thou shalt fynde what erudicion and lear­nynge an ouerseer or bisshoppe ought to haue. Therfore, these arrogant & presumptuous Anababtistes, can not excuse nor de­fende, their impudent ignoran­cie, by simplenes, but that it is alredy manifest vnto the world yt they are geuen into a repro­bate sence, as thei, that be not a­shamed, to boast, and to set forth vnto all men, their ignorancie, in stede of good learnynge, as though children, do not smel al­redy, [Page] their craft & subtiltee. But in y meane seasō, no man ought thus, to interprete our saiynges as though we shuld speake here, of them, that are falsely, called learned men. For we speake of such, as haue ben taught, by god & to the glory of god. Of whom, there were many, in the primi­tiue churche, as Pātonus, Ter­tulian, Cyprian, Lactantius, Augustine, and many other.

Sy

Thou speakeste, with good reasō. For we ought not to think that Chryste did commend such simplicitee, wherby the vncon­nynger that a man is, the bolder he shoulde be. As many, whiche though thei can scarsely reade y vulgare tonge, yet not withstandyng, doe without shame, inge­rate & thrust them selues, in to y office of preachers, stamering [Page] most foolysshely in the common pulpit, But because thei shulde not be founde to bee ignoraunt, in some thyng: they begyn first to excuse their ignorancie, with such woordes. Be not ye offen­ded, obretherne, that I am ig­norant and vnlearned. For the father, doeth manifest hym selfe to the symple and vnlerned. Fi­nally, seyng that Christe, doeth promesse, to his disciples suche wisedome, and eloquence, that their aduersaries, should not be able to withstond it (where as, on the contrary part, these men doe recken their ignorancie, to be a glorious thyng vnto them) I mai easily perceiue, that these are not suche simple persons as Chryste doeth speake of, but ra­ther such, as doe clothe them sel­ues, in sheapes skinnes, faining [Page] them selues, to be sheapes, but inwardely, within theyr her­tes, are rauenyng wolues. But now, I praye the, to take that awaye quickely, whyche offendeth me in the seconde conclu­sion.

The .v. treatie or dialoge.

Of the vocacion and office of prea­chers, againste them, that inge­rate them selues beynge vncalled.

Ioiada.

AS for that, that thou gatherest, by this cō ­clusion, y so, it shulde not, be iaufull for e­uery man, to speake and talke of god, thou goest far out of the waie, and doest not vn derstond my saiynges. I speake of common preachyng, and not of priuate communicacion or talke. For he that taketh vpon hym to be a common preacher, not being called, doeth rauen as he, that maketh hym selfe, by his owne authoritee, a kyng or go­uernour, makyng & callyng to­gether a particuler Senate or [Page] counseill, & beginneth thus, of his owne heade, to rule and ad­ministrate the common welthe, commaunding, and forbiddyng what so euer pleaseth him. Tru­ly, no man, can dooe this, but yt he shalbe accused, not onely of folishenesse & disobedience, but also of tumultee, and high trea­son. Elles, we do not denaie, but yt euery man maie talke of god, yea & maie synge of him, accor­dyng to ye doctrine of Paule .iiii. Ephesy. And the more, yt it is done, the better we alow it. But to separate him self frō y church to seke woods & corners, & there to assemble a company, to insti­tute & ordein sectes and to take vpon them selues, beyng vncal­led, & vnsent, the office of prea­chers: not onely, it hath no ex­ample, in y holy scriptures, but [Page] hath ben iudged and condem­ned alwais as heretikall. But we will now, corroborate and strength these saiynges, with holy scripture. In the epist. to the Rom. x. chap. Paule teacheth after this maner: who so euer cal­leth vpon the name of the lorde, shalbe saued. But how can thei call vpon hym, in whome they haue not belued? and how shal thei beleue in hym, of whom thei haue not harde? And how can they heare without a preacher? And agayne how shal thei prea: the, except thei be sent? By these wordes of Paule, we maie per­ceiue, that sendyng is veary ne­cessary, whiche doeth not equal­ly pertaine vnto all men. For Paule .i. Corin. xii saieth, that there be many giftes. And ea­uen as the body is one thynge, [Page] and hath many lymmes, which lymmes, though thei belong all to one body, yet neuerthelesse, haue not all owne offyce, in the body, so it is in the churche, and misticall body of Chryste. God dyd putte and ordeyne some, in the churche, to be apostels, some to bee prophetes and interpre­tours of scriptures, some to bee teachers, some to bee potestates and rulers, summe to haue the giftes of healynge, summe to minister to the poore, summe to gouerne, and summe agayne to haue the knowledge of ton­ges. If so bee, that the offyce of teachyng, shulde equally per­teine vnto al men: Paul would haue sayed, that god hadde or­deyned all, to bee prophettes, and teachers, but he sayeth: he hathe ordeyned summe to bee [Page] apostels. &c. Why dare then the Anababtistes presume so much, as for to set them selues forthe, by their own autoritee, to prea­che & to teach, againste the doc­trine of Paule? Hebrues .v. No man (saieth he) doeth vsurpe, or presumptuousli take that honor vnto hym selfe, but he, which is called by god, as Aarō, so christ did not glorifie hym selfe to bee made bisshoppe, but he that sai­ed vnto hym. Thou art my sonne and to daye haue I begotten the. And in an other place: Thou arte a priest for euer, af­ter the order of Melchysedecke. After this maner dooeth Iohn Babtiste, testifye of the missi­on and sendynge of Chryste in the fyrste, and thyrde chapiter of Iohn. And of his owne sen­dyng, doeth he hym selfe speake, [Page] in the .i. cha. of Iohn, saiynge: There was a man sente by god, whose name was Iohn when he was also asked, by what autho­ritee he did teache and babtize, he did bryng forthe out of Esaie and Malachie, a testimony and witnesse of his mission and sen­dyng. So the Apostelles were bothe called and sent, as it ap­peareth, by the x. and .xxviii. of Mathew, by y last of Mar. and .xx. of Io. Paule doeth testifie in y begynnyng of his epistels, and specially in the epistell to y Ga­lathiās, that he was called. In the .xiii. of the Act. he with Bar­nabas, is segregated by the ho­ly ghost and sent to preache. In Moises also, & in all the prophe­tes their mission and sendyng is manifested. But agaynst them that dooe renne, beyng not cal­led, [Page] and without sendyng doe preache, in the .xxiii. of Hiere­my, the lorde speaketh thus Thei did renne, but I sent them not. Therfore, I do thynke, that this conclusion is sufficiently proued, and that it is manifeste enough, that the Anababristes dooe not in this thyng, behaue them selues wel and godly, whi­che, thowgh thei be not called, doingerate and thrust them sel­ues, in to the office of preachers Which thyng (as we doe reade) was neuer done by none of the Saintes.

Symon.

All this that thou hast brought, dooeth no­thyng agaynste the Anababti­stes For thei saie, that thei bee sent, by the father, and by the ho­ly ghost.

Ioiada.

To what thing or for what pourpose. Symo [...]. To teache the truthe, to preache [Page] of god, and to rebuke synne. Ioiada. It is proued before (as thou thy selfe haste graunted) that we dooe, the same thynge, in those places, where the gos­pell is preached. What neede haue we then of this mission, and sendynge of the Anababti­stes. To these places where the gospell is preached, god dooeth not sende men to plante and set errours, to moue sedicion, and to teache contrary doctrine, to the truthe, to separat and make diuision in the churche. But the Anababtistes, dooe all these thynges, therfore, they bee not sente by god. For god, is not the god of dyssencion, but of peace, and concorde, .i. Corin. xiiii.

Symon.

Thei saie alwai­es, that they bee sente of god.

Ioiada.

Thei doe saie so in dede, [Page] but not truely. For Sathan can transforme and transfigurate hym selfe into an angell of light ii. Corin .xi. but he is not ther­fore a good aungell.

Symon.

Is it not written in the .iix. cha. of Iohn, that he, which is of god speaketh the woorde of god? the Anababtistes dooe preache the worde of god, therfore, they bee sent of god.

Ioiada

Arrius dyd preache the worde of god. That is to saye, the father is greaterthan I am, ergo he was sent by god.

Symon.

Not so.

Ioiada.

Is not this the worde of god, the father, is greatterthan I am?

Symon.

He dyd preache the worde of god beyng falsely vnderstonded, wrethyng and wrastynge the scriptures, ergo he was not sent, of god.

Ioiada.

The Anababtistes dooe [Page] the same, the refore they bee not sent by god, though, they dooe neuer so muche boast and crake, that thei doe preache the truthe and worde of god. Which thing, all the heretikes dyd before, and Sathan also dooeth vsurpe the worde of god, Mathew .iiii. but it foloweth not, that he is sent by god. That saiynge, whyche thou hast brought out of the .iii. chapiter of Iohn, perteyneth onely to Chryste, who because y he was come frome god, hath perfite knowlage, of diuine and heauenly thynges. Which thing Iohn Babtiste, goeth about to proue to his disciples.

Symon.

The Anababtistes doe saie, that ye doe deprauate the scriptures.

Ioiada.

It skylleth not what they saie, whyche are nothynge shamed to lye, as it shall ma­nyfestly [Page] appere hereafter. For sythe that by this authoritee ta­ken out of the. iii chapiter of Iohn, and applied to Chryste alone, thei adscribe vnto them selues that, which belongeth to Chryste onely: who dooeth not perceiue and see, that thei be e­nemies of the truthe. We know, what sklanderous wordes thei doe vomite out, and speake a­gaynste vs, callyng vs theues, robbers, Antichristes, false pro­phetes, and seductors. We doe impute this to the weakenesse of the flesshe, and forbeare for Chrystes sake. We might cleare our selues, if nede were, & proue that thei doe beelye vs. But so thei haue nede to proue, y thei be sent of god, by other thinges thē by sklanderous wordes and railinges.

Sy.

I can not saie none [Page] other, but that I haue harde them saie, that thei are sent of god.

Ioiada.

No doubt there is, but that thei be ignoraunt, and know not, whiche waie, god do­eth call, & what are the tokens and signes of vocacion and sen­dyng. For thei, that are called & sent of god, are manifested by certaine tokens and signes whiche doe folow, that it maie ap­peare, that thei be truely called and sent either by miracles, or by manifest vocacion and sen­dynge, but specially by dexte­ritee or aptenesse, integreted of lyfe, constauncy and stedfast­nesse, erudicion and learnynge, woorthy suche sendynge and vocacion.

Symon.

what, and if ye dooe faine all this, with­out scriptures?

Ioiada.

I wyll proue all, that I haue [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] saied by the worde of god. A lit­tell afore, that Chryste did de­parte from his apostels, he did sende them, vnto the worlde, to preache the gospel, vnto all cre­tures, but before, yt thei shoulde take in honde this offyce, they shulde tary a while in Nierusa­lem till they were endued with grace frome aboue. For he dyd promise vnto them, to sende the promised spirit and comfort our of the father vpon them. And af­ter, that thei had ones receiued the holy ghost, with it, thei did receiue, the knowlage of all sci­ences, speches, & tongues. Luc. xxiiii. Act. ii. whan Moises dyd draw backe, and did bryng ma­ny excuses, knowledgyng hym selfe, to bee without vtterance, vneloquent, chyldisshe, and vn­mete for that offyce, that god [Page] woulde haue sent hym to: the lord, did promise, that he would be in his mouth, as, he dyd also promise to his apostelles, suche mouth and wisedome, that no man shoulde bee able to resyste agaynste it. Mathew .x. Paule writynge to Tymothe and Ti­tus, concernyng the election of bysshoppes, requireth such one, as, is apte to teache, able to ex­horte with wholsome doctrine, whyche can reuycte, and con­founde them, that resyste and withsaie the truthe .i. Timothe, iii. Titus .i. There Paule doeth forbydde, that none of them, whyche were newly conuerted, shoulde be admitted to the office of a preacher. Netherto, haue I brought places and testimoni­es out of the scriptures, tou­chyng the learnyng, that ought [Page] to be in an ouerseer or bysshop. Now shall we heare, what the scriptures doe testifie and wit­nesse concernyng the miracles of them, that are sent. We dooe therfore alleage here the won­ders, that Moyses did shewe, in Egypte and other innnmera­ble signes, and tokens, that bee written in the Actes, the mani­feste imposicion of handes, and that thei dyd receiue the holy ghost visebly. Moreouer that thei, whiche be sent, ought to be laufully elected and chosen by a common assent, we dooe dryng the first chapiter of the Attes, v­pon the election of Mathias the vii. and .xiii. of the Actes vpon the election of Steuen Paule and Barnabas. The .xiii. chap. also of the Actes doeth manifestly shewe, that Paule and Bar­nabas, [Page] when thei had created, thorow all the churches by a ge­nerall election priestes or seni­ours, laiyng their handes vpon them, and had made theyr prai­ers with fastyng, did committe them vnto the lorde, in whome thei had beleued. Now thou se­est, my Symon, that in y times of the Apostels. euery man dyd not rasshely aduaunce nor sette for the hym selfe to preache. For if it hadde ben so, what shoulde haue neaded any election, and imposicion of handes? But e­lection was made after praiers & fastyng. The same is also written in the epistell to Titus.

Sy.

What, & if thou fyndest all such thynges, among the Anababti­stes?

Io.

Not y lesse iote, of al y aboue rehersed thīges, ergo thei are not sēt by god, but sēsualitee [Page] and ipmpudent boldenesse, dyd impell & moue them. For, what myracles doe thei? except, these are, to be called miracles, that they, with their pernicious doc­trine, dooe brynge men, out of their right, and godly minde, in to starke madnesse, or, that thei, make the gammons, and legges of bakon, hangynge in the lar­ders, of the symple and poore people, inuisible? What lear­nynge, should we loke for, where rudenes, and (as thei do speake themselues) simplicitee, is ta­ken for hyghe rudicion? I dooe passe ouer here, many of them, whiche can scarcely reade, yea and what wyll ye saie of them, y can reade no maner of thyng Are not these, y neophites (by y neophites, I meane not onely them, that are newly conuerted, [Page] but such as doe lacke learnyng) that Paule do reiecte? But thei promote them, that by all their lyues tyme, did neuer reade the Bybles, hauyng onely in readi­nesse, certaine sentences, not vn­derstonded, which beyng, either plucked out, of al partes of scripture, or stolen, or els borowed, of their gydes & leaders, thei dooe wrethe, wrast & turne to contencion, wt all maledicence, & reui­lyng. And so, stondyng among the simple people, haue alwais in their tonges endes, y father of heauen and the spirite. What name, my Symon, maie conue­niently, be geuen vnto them? I maie not call them apostels, for thei are not sent, by god. Again, thei do not preache wher nothīn hath ben yet preached of god but where y people, hath ben a long [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] season, & with the great labour of the true and faithfull mini­sters, taught the waie of truthe there doe thei breake in, destroiyng, peruertyng, &, as a storme or tempest, stirryng vp, all thinges, makyng the commons so perplexed, and doubtfull, that thei know neither ende nor be­gynnyng. If any man, shoulde call them prophetes and exposi­tours of the scriptures, it were none other thyng, but to call a filthy swine, an excellent & cun­ning Musician. For thei are ig­norant in al maner of tongues, in so muche, that thei doe con­temne them, being content with y vulgare tongue onely, If thou callest thē doctours, they know nothynge lesse, than the right waie and trade of teachyng, Besides, that thei want the truthe, [Page] whiche is chiefly required in a teacher. But paraduenture, thei will be called bishops and sheapherdes. Why do y lacke then al suche excellent giftes, as Paule requireth in a teacher or bishop In so much that thei be vnlear­ned, striuers, contencious and rude neophites? Briefly they haue nothyng, that perteine to y office of a teacher. Wherby a­ny man maie perceiue, that the Anababtistes, are suche, as doe send them selues, beyng perplexed, sedicious debatefull, & am­bitious heretykes.

Sy.

Thei be bothe chosen, and sent.

Ioi.

By whome?

Sy.

By their church Moreouer, one brother, dooeth lai his hand vpō y other, geuing hym ful power & autoritee.

Io.

This sendyng, & election, ma­keth me, to remēbre y bishop of [Page] Rome, for after, that the bisshop of Rome, dyd ones get & pour­chasse vnto hym selfe, thorowgh disobedience, tirannie and per­nicious crafte, suche great po­wer: by and by, dyd he promote to bisshoprykes, euery mule ke­per, bawdes and blody souldy­ours▪ But, who did teache them, to seuer and diuide the churche, beynge vnited, and glued with faithe, and charitee? seynge that there is but one God, one faythe one babtyme, and one churche? Who hathe sent the authours of this secte, to make and congregate a new churche? Truely, amulacion, enuy, strife, contencion, auaryce, ambicion, and stiffe pertinacy. I could wel and sufficiently proue all these thynges. except, I shoulde here wittyngly, spare some people. [Page] Their Churche therfore, is not the Churche of God, but a cer­tayne secte, and congregacion of styffenecked and disobedient people, among whom, there is no more iust election, then is in the company of rebelles & tray­tours, whiche forsakyng their owne prince or gouernour, doo retchely, & without aduisement chuse, thys man or that man, to be their Capitayne. But let vs graunt, that it is a Church, yet not withstandyng, they erre in election, whiche is not vsed among them, accordyng to the preceptes of the apostle, Dona­tus, dyd gather a particuler Church. Nonatus lykewyse, & bothe in Affrica. And yet not withstandynge, none of theim both, was called or sent by god. And their Churche also, were [Page] no Churches, but conuenticles or assembles of Heretikes.

Symon.

What thynkest thou by the saiyng of s, Paule .i. Corin. xiiii. where he doth geue free li­bertie, vnto all men to preache, or interprete the Scriptures.

Ioiada.

I am of the same selfe o­pinion, that Paule is: Two or three (sayth he) may speake in the church: Let the other heare and iudge. Finally, if it be re­uelated to an other syttyng by, let the other holde his peace.

And by and by it followeth: For ye may al prophecy, one af­ter another, that all may learne and haue cousolacion.

Symon.

By these wordes, it appeareth. that Paule dothe not geue li­bertie to euery man, to preache what he listeth, whē he nameth ii. or .iii. and byddeth the other [Page] to heare, & to geue attendance to that that the Prophetes (in the newe Testament, suche, as do expounde the scriptures are called Prophetes) do expounde and set furthe out of the scrip­tures. Nor he doth not gyue ly­sence to the hearers, to inter­rupte the sermons of the Pro­phetes, excepte it be, when any thyng is lefte or peruersly ex­pounded by the Prophet, or in­terpretor. By this, it foloweth, that it is not semely ne comely, that any mā shuld interrupt, if the truthe be sufficiētly enucle­ated & shewed, muche lesse, that any man shoulde, vnder suche pretence and colour sewe in, or bring in his errors. I doo see & perceiue, that the effecte of the matter doeth consist, in thys thyng: If it be necessary, if any [Page] thyng be omitted and lefte, by them that are Prophetes, that oughte not to bee omitted, or whiche beynge lefte, maye dooe harme: and agayne, which be­ing shewed, may edifi the chur­che, that then it may be shewed vnto them, by any mā, but that, with al sobrenesse and charitie. If nothing be wanting or lack­ynge, all the audience to holde their ptace.

Ioiada.

Thou takest the ryght sense of it. For it fo­loweth by and by: The spirite of the Prophetes, is subiect to the Prophetes. For God is not the auctor of confusiō, but of peace. The Holy ghost doth not breake furth rashely, & with affection and stryfe, but is treatable: nor he dooeth not styffely contende for euery lyght matter, but suf­fereth him self to be instructed, [Page] and taughte: & so geueth easely place, to him that hathe better vnderstandyng. But the Ana­babtistes are farre from al such thinges, boastyng neuerthelesse a spirit, but as Iudas did boast his Apostleship: sayut Iames, dyd not without a cause, warne vs, saiyng: Let not many ma­sters be among you, knowynge that we shall receyue greatter dampnaciō or iudgement, that is to say: we that are teachers.

Symon.

But here thou haste brought me into a greter dout: For now I aske the: Whether of theym two▪ is greatter, the Prophet. vnto whom the spirit is subiect, or the spirit? If thou sayest, that man is gretter, then the spirite, beware that thou doest not attribute to much to a mortall and frayle man. If the [Page] spirite is hygher, how can that thyng, which is gretter, be sub­iecte to a thyng, that is lesse. If so bee, that thou preferrest the spirite vnto men, & agayne wyll haue the saiyng of Paule to be true, I do not perceiue, by what reason it can stande. Or howe can a man be greatter, then the Spirite, whiche maketh hym a Prophet?

Ioiada.

Thou dooest aske righte well this question. But it is to be noted, that Paul doeth not here take the spirite for the holy ghost, whiche is the thyrde persone in trinitie, but for the gyfte & operacion of the spirite of God. The sense and meanyng of this place, is ther­fore, that the gyfte of prophecy, is so in the power of the Pro­phet, that hath it, that he maye bothe speake, & holde his peace, [Page] in the congregacion of the sayn­tes, when, and as long, as it is expedient for the hearers. For they are not so instructed and moued, with the spirit, as mad, and phantasticall men are, that they shoulde all cryout at once, with an vnsemely clamor, mur­muryng one agaynst another, with a debatefull contencion & stryfe: For so, one coulde not vnderstande another. The spi­rite of God is gentle, treatable. and peasable, not stirrynge or mouyng any man to contenciō, and debate, but to peace and v­nytie. Wherfore he sayeth: ye may Prophecy all, one after a­nother. To the which exposiciō, Theophilactus, agreith, inter­pretynge this place, after thys maner: The spirite, that is to say, the grace of the holy ghost, [Page] which is in thee, the operacion or workyng, that hath inuaded thee, is subiecte to the gyfte or grace of another man, which is moued to Prophecy, that is to say, dothe geue place & hearing. But now, if thou be so plea­sed, let vs go aboute the thirde Conclusion.

Symon.

I am well content, begynne thou.

The. VI. Treatyse or Dialogue.

Of the Vnitie of the Churche, against the Sectes of the Anabaptistes.

Ioiada.

IChynke, that thou wylt say nothyng a­gaynst the thyrd conclusion: For, what canne be sayde more truly, then that Christ, and his Apostles, dyd alwayes congre­gate, or assemble the Churche, and that thei dyd neuer tumul­tuate or moue sedision, for out­warde and temporall thynges. Or is there any man, that can say the contrarye?

Symon.

I wyl shew hym vnto the by & by, that is to say, Christ, whiche dothe saye: I am come, not to bring peace, but the swoorde.

Ioiada.
[Page]

Thou dooest writhe and wrest the wordes of Christ: For he speaketh nor these wordes of his Churche, that they shoulde disagree within themselues, as the Anabaptistes do moue tu­multe, in those churches, where Christ and the Gospell is prea­ched sincerely, but doth expres the nature of the infidels, whi­che doo persecute the faythfull. For, whersoeuer Christ is pre­ched, they that are godly, do re­ceyue and embrace him gladly: and they that are vngodly, doo bothe let and persecute Christ and his Disciples. Now Christ doth cal this discenciō a sword: which sworde is not among the godly in the Churche: but the infidels do vse it agaynst them that ar godly. Dothe not Esaie say, that there is no peace to the [Page] vngodly. The cognisaunce or badge of them that ar godly, is Charitie, Peace, and Concord. Wherfore, the Lorde, dothe call them, that be peasable, or loue peace, blessed, and chyldren of God. Mat. v.

Symou.

I do easely graunte, that peace and vnitie ought to be, in the Church. But that Christ, and hys Apostles dyd neuer moue sediciō for tem­porall thynges, thou doest af­firme it scantly.

Ioiada.

yea, and truly also, or elles shewe thou the contrary.

Symon.

In the .xv. chap. of the Actes, we do reade that Paule and Barnabas, had no small discencion, and reaso­nyng agaynst them, which dyd teache Circumsicion. Who wyll deny, circumcision to be an out­warde thyng?

Ioiada.

I vnder­stande & call outward thynges, [Page] that dooe helpe nothyng to our saluacion, perteining to the bo­dy, more, then to the soule, and which being necessari to the bo­dy, do, in processe of tyme, waxe olde, waste, and consume away, suche as be, condicion, rychesse, and grosse elementes of thys worlde. But circumcision, was not taught by the false prophe­tes, as an outwarde thyng, but as a necessary & needeful thyng to saluacion: which thei dyd ve­ry vrgently and instantly per­suade, that it shoulde bee ob­serued & kepte, yea, and all the whole law besyde. Hereof, dyd ryse the disputacion, whche is written of, in the xv. chap. of the Actes Els Paule dyd circum­cise, Timothie, for peace and tranquilitie sake, and because that he woulde not offende cer­tayne [Page] weake bretherne, in the Churche: but after that, some men dyd vrgently bring in, cir­cumcison, as necessary, Paule dyd greatly repugne, & woulde not suffer Titus to be circumci­zed .xvi. of the Actes .ii. Galat. This sediciō therfore that thou aledgest here, hathe a greatter cause, then an outwarde thyng.

Sy.

Howe darest thou call ri­chesse outwarde thinges, which do exclude a mā from the kyng­dome of Heauen? For Christ sayeth that it is easyer for a ca­mell, to go thoroughe the eye of a nydle. then for a ryche man to entre into the kyngdome of He­uen.

Io.

We doo know well i­noughe the false sighynges and teares of the Crocodyle, which, these light and inconstant Ana­babtistes, do poure doune daily, [Page] dispisynge richesse, none other wyse, then the Foxe, dyd in ty­mes past dispyse, the sweete grapes, that she could not come by. Richesse, are by them selues ne­ther good, nor euyll, but the vse, dothe make theim either good, or euyll. If thyne eye be simple, and lyghtsome, all the body shal be lyghtsome: but if thyne eye be wycked and euyll, all thy bo­dy shall be darkenesse. Mat. vi. Therfore, if a riche mā be faith­full and godly, the richesse that he hathe, be good, and that, by reason of the good vse. If the master or owner of the richesse, is vnfaythful or an infidell, his richesse are nought. Luke .xvi. Such, do christ speake of, when he bringeth in, the similitude of the camell. and of the eye of the nedle. There wer innumerable, [Page] bothe in the olde & newe Testa­ment, whiche, in great richesse were called no small frendes of God: as Noe, Abraham, Lot, Isaac, Iacob. Iob, Ioseph, &c. Whiche in the myddest of their rychesse, dyd cleaue vnto God, with a sincere harte, and good fayth. Loke what opiniō Paul hathe of this thyng, and what he writeth of it .i. Timoth. vi. Therfore, I care not what these hipocrites doo bable and prate, sith that the richemen may doo good to the poore, in Christes Churche, whiche occasion they that haue no richesse doo lacke. To what purpose or intent doo then these mad braines, trouble all the worlde for trifelyng and vnnecessary thyngꝭ? I do know sum, which, if thei had as much as they do lacke, thorough their [Page] owne negligence and slugherd­nesse, they woulde fynde by and by a way, to iustify their vniust and euyll gotten goodes.

Sy.

I doo let that passe, I pray the, to proue the seconde conclusion. Peraduenture I shall learne somewhat by it.

Ioiada

That Christ dyd neuer cause tumult, for outwarde thynges, but dyd alwayes study to peace & tran­quilitie, we wyl bring the .xvii. of Mathew, where he speaketh to Peter after this maner: Lest we do offēd them (that is to say, that do receyue the didragme) go thy waye to the sea, & cast in, thy hoke, and the fyrst fysh that cometh, open his mouth, & thou shalt fynde a stater, take it and geue it for the & me. In the. xxii of Math, when he was asked, of the yearely tribute, that was [Page] payed vnto Ceasar, he did so fly from tumulte, that he dyd iyone bothe god and Ceasar togither, biddyng them to pay their duty to eche of them. Nor, he dyd not condempne them, that dyd re­ceyue. Nor agayne he dyd not say: Blessed are they, which doo geue. He dyd not say: ye owe no­thyng by Goddes law, but not­withst andyng geue: wo be, vn­to hym, that dothe receyue. In the .xiii. of Iohn, Christ doth so teache hys Disciples: I geue you a new cōmaūdement, that ye loue eche other, as I haue lo­ued you. By this, shall all men know that ye be my Disciples, if ye loue eche other. And incon­tinent in that long sermon that he made vnto his Disciples, af­ter his Maundy, he doth chefe­ly speake of the Spirite of the [Page] faythfull. And a lytell afore, he shoulde sende his Apostles, he dyd saye: Peace vnto you, as my father hathe sent me, so I sende you. The .xiiii. chap. Rom. Paule sayeth: The kyngdome of God, is neyther meate nor drinke, but rightousnesse, peace and gladnesse in the holy ghost. For, he that serueth vnto christ in those thyngꝭ, is accepted both before GOD, and before men. Therfore, let vs followe that, whiche belongeth to peace, and edifieng, one towarde another. In the .i. Cor. i. he dothe exhorte the Corinthiās, after this ma­ner: I beseche you, brethren, in the name of oure Lorde Ihesu Christ, that ye dooe speake all one thyng, and that there be no dissenciōs among you, but that yee bee one whole bodye, of one [Page] mynde & opinion. Let no suche contenciōs be among you, that one shoulde say: I am Cephas disciple, another, I am Pauls: an other, I am Christes. Is Christ diuided: was Paul cru­cified for you? Or were ye bap­tised, in the name of Paule? When ye do say so, ar ye not yet carnal? Moreouer, loke, & con­sider what Paul writeth in the xii. cha. to the Cori. exhortyng them to concorde & charitie, by the exemple of the body and the lymmes. In the .xiiii. he sayeth apartelye, that God is not au­cthor of discencion, but of con­corde and peace, whiche thyng may be sene, in the Churches of the faythfull. In the .iiii. to the Ephesians, Paule doeth exhort vs, to behaue oure selues, and walke so, as it doeth become the [Page] vocacion wherwith, we are cal­led, with all obeisaunce & low­lynesse, with gentlenes of hert, forbearing eche other thorough charitie, and that we shoulde studye to kepe the vnitie of the spirite by the bounde of peace, beyng (sayth he) one body & one spirite, as yee are called in one hope, of your vocacion. There is but one Lorde, one fayth, one Baptisme, one God and father of vs all▪ &c. In the▪ ii. chap. to the Philippians, with lyke stu­dy, exhorteth he, the faythfull to be of lyke affection, to haue betwene them selfes, loue & cha­ritie, to be of lyke mynde & lyke iudgement, and that nothyng shoulde be doone among them, by contencion or vayneglorye. But by humilitie & lowlynesse of hearte, euerye man shoulde [Page] thynke an other mā, to be more excellent, then he is himself. &c. Are not these, sufficient testi­monies?

Sy.

What dooe these thynges agaynste the Anabap­tistes?

Io.

Very much, for thei proue and shew manifestli, that the Anabaptistes be authors of tumulte and sedicion.

Sy.

What is that?

Ioi.

That is to say, that they against al good ordre, and exemple of the Apostles, dooe make stryfe & contencion in the Churche of Christ, & that only for certayne outwarde trifles.

Sy.

But they doo teache many thynges of God and of faythe. What outewarde thynges are they, wherfore they do make di­uision in the Churche?

Ioi.

If they shoulde preache none other thyng, but of God, of faith, cha­ritie and innocencye of lyfe, it [Page] should be no neede of this sepe­racion. For these thynges are taught also in our Churches. so that it is no neede at all, that they shoulde preache. But they seperate them selues therefore, because that they teache these thyngꝭ hereafter rehersed, that is to saye: That we haue neede of a new Baptysme, and that a Christen man may not receyue rentes, nor reuenewes: That Christen men are free frome paiyng of tythes: That a chri­sten man may not beare rule or be a maiestrate: That no man is boūde to make a lawful othe, when he is commaunded, by the maiestrates: And also they doo take away richesse from christē men. Are not these, outwarde thynges? And agayne, do they not for suche thynges diuide & [Page] trouble the Churche? Besyde that, they doo bynde their disci­ples, that they shall not heare the worde of God among them, where Baptysme of chyldren is vsed, rentes and tythes payed, any lawfull othe is made, ma­gistrates be, & richesse ar coun­ted good. Nowe call in remem­braunce, the places and testi­monyes, that we haue brought and aledged afore, of Christ, & of his Apostles, & ponder well, whether this seperation, is A­postolicall, or sedicious.

Sy.

It skylleth not that ye cal them se­dicious. For that dyd chaunce to Christ, and to his Apostles, to be accused of tumulte & sedi­cion. But in this thyng, they do prayse God, and geue thankes, that they be counted worthy, to suffer for the name of Iesu, re­membring [Page] what Christ sayeth: Blessed are ye when men dooe curse you, and speake all euyll against you, reioice and be glad, for your reward is great in he­uen.

Ioia.

Why doest thou leaue that clause which Christ added vnto it, when he was speakyng suche thynges?

Sy.

What haue I lefte?

Ioia.

Lying (sayth he) for my sake. That we dooe call the Anabaptistes sedicious, it is not doone for Christes sake, but because, that they do diuide Churches beyng well ordered and pacified, for the thinges a­fore named. The which thyng neuer Christ nor his Apostles dyd. Nor we doo not lye, when we accuse them of tumulte, and sedicion. For the thing is so ma­nifest, that it can not be denyed. But they that imputed suche [Page] thinges to Christ, and to his A­postles dyd lye, and dyd not say trewe, as it appeareth by the xxiii. of Luke, the .xvi. & .xxiiii. of the Actes. There were some which dyd falsely reporte, that they preached agaynst paiyng of Tribute, vnto Ceasar, sedu­cyng the cōmens, and mouyng sedicion, whiche thynges were not true. For neither christ, nor his Apostles dyd it, but rather taught the contrary alwayes. But the Anabaptistes, because, that they repugne against pub­like magistrates or rulers, and go aboute to abolysshe the ordi­nance of God, are ryghtfully called tumultuous, rebels and sedicious heretikes.

Symon.

I woulde gladly (if I myght ob­teyne that thyng of thee) that thou shuldest leaue, that word, [Page] Heretike: For as often as I heare it, I dooe all quake and tremble in my herte.

Ioia.

When I dooe say heretike, I dooe not vnderstande him, that the rude & vnlerned people doth meane, but him that is aucthor of sec­tes, and maketh diuision in the Churche, which doth obstinate­ly breake and trouble the vnitie of the Churche, with false and erronious opinion. But I wyll bringe mo places to confirme my conclusion.

Symon.

I wyll gladly heare them.

Ioia.

In the xx. of the Actes Paul speakyng vnto the ouerseers, beynge as­sembled togither, at Miletyng, dyd byd them to take heede to them self, & to the whole flocke, ouer the whiche, the holy gost hathe made them ouer seers, to gouerne the Churche of God, [Page] whiche he had purchased with his owne blood. For sayeth he, I do know this well, that gre­uous wolfes, shall after my de­partyng, entre in, not sparyng the flocke: euen from you shall ryse men, speakynge peruerse thynges, to drawe after them disciples. Thou seest, my Sy­mon, the nature of heretikes, whiche is, to make diuision in the Churche, to get vnto them disciples, or folowers of their heresye, not to spare the flocke, to sowe discorde, to teache per­uerse thynges, to allure men, to reyse or styr vp partes, sectes, & factions, to congregate a par­ticuler Churche.

Sy.

These ar­gumentes do almost touche the Anabaptistes. For they make diuision in the Churche, and do bring vp and maintayne a sin­gularitie [Page] amonge theim or by themselfes. But hast thou more testimonies or places?

Ioiada

Paule doth warne the Romai­nes with these wordes, saiyng: I pray you, brethren, that yee looke vpon them, that cause a­mong you dissencion and strife, agaynste the doctrine that yee haue learned, & that ye doo flye from theim. For they that are such, do not serue vnto our lord Iesu Christ, but to their belye, and by blandiloquence, & flat­teryng, disceiue the hartes of the simple.

Sy.

This aucthoritie the Anabaptistes do vse, but a­gaynst you.

Io.

Consyder, my Symon, in your mynde, howe truly thei do bring such thyngꝭ agaynst vs. Where dyd we euer make diuision in the Churche? whiche thynge is familier and [Page] proper vnto them? Where dyd we euer put offēdicles, or stom­bling blockes, vnto the church? Where as, they haue made an innumerable sorte of mē so per­plexed and doubtfull, that they do abhorre from the gospell & do beleue neither vs, nor them. Paule did more lyuely expresse them, that do disceyue & seduce the people with fayre speakyng, seruyng to their belyes, in the iii▪ chapiter to the Philipenses, with these wordes: For many do walke, of whom I haue spo­ken many tymes, and now doo speake weeping, enemyes of the crosse of Christ, whose ende is perdicion, whose belye is their God, and glorie or reioysyng, in their opprobriousnesse: Which do care for earthly thyngꝭ only. Nowe iudge, my Symon, vnto [Page] whom these thinges may be ap­plied, vnto vs, or vnto the Ana. baptistes. They vociferate and crye alwayes, agaynst Tythes, Tributes, Riches, Othes, Ma­gistrates, propertie of goodes. We do preach Faith, Innocen­cy of lyfe, Charitie, & that men may vse all thinges well, as the gyftes of God. Who boasteth more, or reioyseth in reproche­full thingꝭ, then thei do, that is to say, in their Catabaptisme, or oppinion agaynst Baptisme. in forsakyng of their houshold, & in their slouthfulnes, wherin thei do wander aboute, as ydle vacaboundes. Moreouer, of these thynges, that they do tea­che, tumultes, sediciōs, warres, robbyng and spoilyng, dyd al­wayes ryse. I thynke thou do­est vnderstande, whom Paule [Page] dothe call belyes, and enemyes of the crosse of Christ.

Sy.

If thou hast any more testimonies or places, I pray you, hyde not them from me.

Ioia.

Touchyng the vnitie of the church against the Anabaptistes, ther is a sin­guler place, in the▪ x. of the He­brues: Let vs (sayth he) consi­der, & looke one vpon another, for thys intent, that wee maye prouoke eche other to charitie, & good workes, not sorsakyng the mutuall felowship or con­gregacion of vs, as some men ar wont to do. And what other thyng do the Anabaptistes, but for the weakenesse, or (as they doo say) for the wyckednesse or vngodlynesse, of some, forsake the Churche▪ and exhorte other to dooe the same.? But let vs come now to the .iiii. conclusion, [Page] which shall shew playnly, that the Anabaptistes are false pro­phetes, & enemyes of the Crosse of Christ.

Sy.

Bryng it furthe, that I may heare what it is.

Ioia.

They are false prophetes, whosoeuer they be, that doo af­firme, that Christ dyd only ab­olish & take away, originall syn. They are false Prophetes, that do deny grace, & forgyuenesse of synnes vnto them: which, after that the truthe is once knowen, do fall agayne, into sinne or er­ror. They are false Prophetes, that do attribute, saluaciō, vn­to our workes. Syth that the Anabaptistes do teach these ar­ticles, thei be not only enemies of the crosse of Christ, but more ouer do denye Christ.

Sy.

They do no suche thingꝭ,

Ioi.

Though they do not with their mouthe. [Page] denye Christ, yet notwithstan­dyng, thei do in very dede deny the vertue, and strengthe of Christ, & of his death: as Peter dothe saye .ii. Peter .ii. for swea­rynge the Lorde, that bought them. Is not all one thyng, if a man should say Christ is not. And there is no suche thynge, wherefore Christ dyd come? Christ dyd come to take away our synnes, whiche thyng if he dyd not, Christ is not Christ. If he be dead onely for them, that were in the old testament, and not for vs, he can not bee our sauiour, and how is he then Christ? If so be that our wor­kes, do saue vs, is he not dead in vayne? Doest thou not see, how the enemyes of the Crosse are knowen?

The .vii. Treatye or Diasogue.

How that Christ dyd not onely suffer, for originall syn.

Symon.

TAke hede, that thou doest not rashly and without aduisemēt, blame the Anabap­tistes. For ther hath ben alwayes some, whiche dyd saye, that Christ hathe suffered onely, for them, that were afore him, that is to saye, for the Fa­thers, which dyd lyue vnder the olde Testament, & that he hath only pourged in vs, Originall synne, and that we ought to ex­piate, or to make amendes & sa­tisfaction, with our owne dedes and workes, for the sinnes, that we cōmit, after that we be ones [Page] purified.

Ioi.

If ye haue ben so taught hytherto, and haue be­leued so, why was Peter Abe­lardus counted an heretike, & made to recant againe, by saint Bernarde, in the councell of Sens? He dyd teache very like thynges.

Sy▪

This dothe moue me. but lytell.

Ioiada.

In this thinge, are yee blame worthye, that ye Anabaptistes, do know, neither new nor olde histories, & yet ye wyll be teachers. What audacitie is this? But howe [...]ayne your opinion is, and how muche, it doth ene [...]uate and af­ [...]eablysh, the vertue of the pas­sion of Christ, we wyll shew, by the holy scriptures. Iohn Bap­tist, shewyng with his fynger, that pure & immaculate lambe Iesu Christ, dyd saye: This is the lambe of God, which taketh [Page] awaye the synne of the worlde. By these & other wordes of the scripture. it is manifestly pro­ued, that Christ is the full satis­faction, for the synnes of all the worlde. Or canst thou say, that the fathers of the old Testamēt are onely the worlde.

Sym.

No, but he sayeth syn, & not synnes.

Ioi.

Iohn dothe vse this worde synne, as he dothe, this diction world. By the worlde, he vnder­standeth, whatsoeuer is world­ly: so by this word sinne, he vn­derstandeth, all that can be na­med synne, the gender beynge here put, for the species. For he sayeth, which taketh away, and not, which hath taken away, or shall take away, that this word Tollit, taketh away, may signi­fye action or doyng & not tyme. For what synnes soeuer are ta­ken [Page] away, they ar taken away, by the sacrifice of Christ, done in the Crosse.

Sym.

Thou must bring cleare & more strong te­stimonies, for these, can easely be confuted.

Ioia.

This auctho­ritie is bothe playne & strong i­nough. Nor it can not be sub­uerted, by any contradiction. But that thou mayest see, that we ar not without auctorities. Reade the .v. to the Roma. and thou shalt vnderstand, and per­ceyue, that the vertewe of the death of Christ, is abolyshed by you. And not as bi one mā (saith saynt Paul) which had sinned, death dyd come: so is the gyfte of GOD. For iudgement, dyd come, by one synne to condem­nacion, and the gyfte dyd come, to iustify frō many synnes. Do not these woordes, O Symon, [Page] prooue, that Christ with hys death, dyd not clense or pourge onely one synne, but all maner of synnes? But reade all the whole chapiter, and then, thou shalte vnderstande it better.

Paule speaketh of Christ in the ii. chap. to the Collossen. after this maner: And you (sayth he) when yee were dead thoroughe youre synnes or in the prepucie or vncircumcisiō of yourflesh, he hath quykened also with him forgyuyng vnto vs all our syn­nes. Because that in him dothe inhabite all plenitude or per­fection of God head corporally and ye are made perfect in him. Which thyng, truly, coulde not be, if he had not washed vs clene frō all our synnes. But the con­trary is euidently knowen, by the .x. chap to the Hebrues. He [Page] (sayth saynt Paule) one obla­cion beynge offered for synnes, sitteth euerlastīgly on the right hande of God the Father. For with one oblaciō, he hath made perfecte for euer, them, that are sanctified .i. Ioh. i. The blood of Christ, dothe clense vs, from all our synnes .i. Io. ii. If any man dothe synne, we haue an aduo­cate, before the father, that righteous Lorde Iesu Christ. And he is the satisfaction for oure synnes, and not onely for oure synnes, but for the synnes of all the worlde. If Christ dyd take away, onely original synne, the testimonye and aucthoritie of Iesu, is voyde. And agayne, if Christ dyed not for vs, but for them only that were after hym: what belongeth vnto vs, the death of Christ. Or why should [Page] we confesse it, if it perteyneth nothyng vnto vs? Doest thou not see yet, who are false Pro­phetes, enemyes of the crosse of Christ, and subuersers of the Christen fayth?

Sy.

I doo see it well inough, and I am wel con­tent, touchynge this Artitle. But as for that, that they dooe denye, or wyll not graunt re­pentaunce, & grace vnto them, that be fallen agayn: thei proue it strongly by the .vi. chap. to the Hebrues, and by the ii. Peter. ii And, verely, as farre, as I can, perceyue, they speake well i­nough in it. That is to say, that we be no more in the flesh, and that me ought to synne no more after this: which thyng I wold thynke to be good, if we myght [...]olyue. For they do so, v [...]ry stu­ [...]ously & with great diligen [...].

The .viii. Treatye or Dialogue.

How that a synner may come to grace, as often as he reuen­ [...]ethe, and that no man is without synne.

Ioiada.

O Lorde God, that the sim­ple, do so miserably suffer themselues to be blynded. If Menander & Symō, should come agayne: I thynke they coulde fynde adherentes, and disciples, syth that the secte of Nouatus & of the Catharians, is so regarded & beleued among many.

Sy.

What do these thingꝭ meane▪

Ioia

That the seyd here­tykes, dyd teache, about .xii. C. ye [...]r [...]s ago, the same thynges, that thou hast nowe brought of the Anababtistes. For thei dyd [Page] deny all grace and forgeuenes, vnto them, that were fallen a­gayne: Thei dyd arrogate, and take vpon them, purenesse or clenlynesse of lyfe. They dyd congregate & assemble a parti­culer Churche, auoidyng and shūnyng al cōmunion or felow­ship of synners. In the meane season, they dyd passe al mortal men, in presumptuo [...]snesse and arrogancy, in enuy, hate [...]e [...] contencion, in couetousnesse, & intemperancy of lyfe. But rede thou Ciprian, vpon the matter, in the .iiii. Epi [...]le to Antonia­nus. The Anabaptistes if thou lookest better vpon the [...], are in all thinges lyke vnto the Catharians, and doo teache all one thyng with them. S [...]ct [...] them therefore▪ For he, that a­greith, with manifest h [...]e [...]s [Page] is lyuyng, condicions, conuer­sacion & teachyng, can not teche the truthe, nor be a rightful mā. Or howe canst thou alow them whom all godly persones dyd alwayes abhorre?

Sy.

I care not for the Catharians, nor I know not, what the Cathariās be. That I do, in this thyng, a­gree with the Anabaptistꝭ, the scriptures compell me to do it, therfore I do not beleue them, but the scriptures.

Ioia.

This is that I haue sayde, and yet do I repete it, that nothing boldeth them so muche in their error as dothe ignoraunce. If they had read, and tasted the olde histo­ries, thei wolde be more modest and sobre, and not so presump­ [...]ous. Is not this a miserable and perilous thyng, that men beyng so rude and ignoraune in [Page] all thynges, do take vpon them, to be teachers? Wherby, it co­meth to passe, that thei corrupt, confound & subuert al thynges, not hauynge the righte vnder­stādyng of scriptures. For that which Paule in the▪ vi. chap. to the Hebrues, and Peter in the ii. chap. of his second Epist. doo write, dothe not strengthe nor proue the oppinion of the Ana­babtistes, but that there is no remission for them, whiche doo swarue frome the faythe, and thorow misbeleue or infidelitie do dispayre of the mercy of god. For they doo synne agaynst the holy gost, whiche syn is not for­gyuen here, nor in the worlde to come, as Christe teacheth. Mat. xii. & .i. Iohn .v. But, my Symon, discusse thou and wey, the wordes, of bothe the Apo­stles, [Page] and consider to what pur­pose they were spoken. Truly for this purpose, to proue, that it is impossible for hym, that hath beleued ones perfectly, to falle away from his fayth. Pe­ter, with the other disciples, be­ing asked of christ, whether thei woulde, forsake hym also, dyd answere. Lord, to whom should we go? thou hast the wordes of euerlastyng lyfe. And we dooe know and beleue, that thou art the sonne of the lyuyng God. If so be, that any man dothe fall cleane from fayth, he doth shew manifestly, that he had neuer a true fayth. They went from vs (sayth Iohn) but they were not of vs: for if they had ben of vs, truly they shoulde had remay­ned with vs. He therfore, that swarueth from the knowē faith [Page] hathe no saluacion. But why? For Christ is the onely saluaciō frome whome he doothe falsely swarue, and therfore can fynde no other saluacion. Thou doest vnderstande, I thynke, that the falle, whereof Paull speaketh, is not the fall, that doth chaūce daily, by thinfirmitie & weake­nesse of the flesh in them, that are godly, but extreme despera­cion thorough misbeleue & infi­delitie, wherby a mā swarueth from God. Reade the .vii. &. viii to the Heb. and thou shalte see, that daily remission of synnes, is not denyed vnto them that ar fallen agayne. For he sayeth also, in the .v. cha. that Christ is a bisshoppe, that can haue com­passion, of our infirmities, vnto whom we must flye, hauyng ly­cence & libertie, to do it .x. chap. [Page] to the Hebrues.

Sy.

In the .xii. chap. Paule teacheth. that E­sau coulde fynde no place of re­pentaunce, thoughe he dyd seke it with teares.

Ioia.

Paule doth not speake in this place, of re­pentaunce, and forgyuenesse of synnes. but of election, and re­couering of his first birth which he had lost ones, thorough glo­tony, and intemperance, and could neuer recouer it agayne, though he had assaied & proued it, with wepynges and teares. for Iacob had bought the right of the first borne. and had pre­uented him. Wherfore he spea­keth nothyng heare, of the in­warde remission of sinnes. And often tymes, thys woorde pe­naunce is taken in an other si­gnificaciō. But the Cathariās dyd vse the same argumentes, [Page] in so muche, that some weake persons, among them, that wer godly. dyd abhorre, & suspecte the Epistle to the Hebrues, as some do now a dayes the Epi. of saynt Iames. But now I come to the auctoritie of Peter, who speaketh after this maner: It had ben better for them▪ not to haue knowen the waye of righ­teousnesse, then after that they haue knowen, to tourne from that, that was taught them by the holye precepte. But that chaunceth vnto theim, that is wont to be spoken in a true pro­uerbe: A dogge goynge to his vomittyng (or to that which he had vomitted) agayne: And a washed sow, beyng retourned to the myre wallowyng or walte­ryng. If thou considerest well & truly these wordes, thou shalt [Page] fynde that they be spoken of in­fidelitie, and vnfaythfulnesse. From the which, after that thei wer ones called, through faith, they dyd fall agayn from God, into the fyrst vnfaythfulnesse & infidelitie. We doo set therfore that infidelitie is condempned euery where.

Sy.

What sayest thou of this, that thei do affirm that we liue no more in the flesh

Io.

The flesh dothe stycke vnto vs, to the verye graue. For the flesh doth contrary, the spirite, and agayne, the spirite doth re­pugne agaynste the flesh, in so moche that we doo that, whiche we woulde not do, the Rom. the vii. It is therfore great bolde­nesse, to presume & boast of that, whiche the Apostles dyd neuer presume [...] boast of. For Paule did complain of his flesh, which [Page] hath more spirite, & dyd labour more, to tame his flesh, then all the Anababtistes. And yet they dare say, that they be not in the flesh. For this cause peraduen­ture, because that they be, none other thyng but flesh, that is to say, all carnal, drouned in their sensualitie & affections. Which thyng is manifestly knowen, by their lyfe. But paul did cōclude all thys whole matter, more perfectly, & more briefly also, saiyng: I do, with my mynde, obey and serue vnto the lawe of god, but with my flesh, vnto the law of synne. He doth more, at large expounde these thynges, in the .viii. Rom. and v. Galat. Where he dothe shewe, in fewe wordes▪ that they, which do not feare God, nor rare, for heauen­ly thynges, but are all earthly, do lyue after the flesh. And that [Page] he walketh in the spirite, or af­ter the spirite, which though he hath, & feeleth in him self, sinne, and weakenesse of the flesh, be­yng tickeled with sensualitie, & affections, yet not withstādyng, dothe not geue the bridell, vnto the flesh, ne vnto synne, but re­sisteth styll, and is alwayes a frayde to fall. And if so be, that he chaunceth to fall, by and by, draweth he backe his foote, and repentyth.

Sy,

But they saye, that a man may be, without syn

Ioi.

We are without synnes, as dogges be without fleas, in the moneth of August. O abhomi­nacion, that men should thinke or presume suche thingꝭ. I passe ouer here, that by this opinion, they doo blaspheme the veritie, of the gospel, yea, & take vtterly away the grace & mercy of God [Page] For where synne is not, there is no grace, where preuarica­cion and transgression is not, there is no Remission amonge them, there is no transgression, ergo, the grace of God, is not a mong them. Is not this, to a­bolish the grace of God? What shall I saye, but that these mad braynes, do fal into another he­resye, that is to saye, in to the heresy, of that blasphemous mā Pelagius, who dyd denye the grace of God, magnifiyng and extollyng the strengthe of man. He was .xi. C. yeares ago.

Sy.

But they proue thys, with scriptures.

Ioia.

The veritie of the scriptures dothe teache no­thing so. Beside that, thou canst bring no exemple, but the exem­ple of Lucifer, which woulde be lyke vnto God, as they wyll be [Page] without synne, wheras no man can be pure, and without synne, but God onely.

Sy.

Dothe not Iohn say, that he, whiche is of God, synneth not?

Ioia.

He syn­neth not to death.

Sy.

Thou do­est so expoūd it, or this is thyne exposicion.

Ioai.

Consider the wordes that go afore, and thou shalte vnderstand, that I saye true.

Sy,

What synne is that? or is not a man without synne, when he synneth not to death?

Io.

Christ saieth vnto the Iues: If ye do not beleue, ye shal dye, in your synnes, Ergo, vnfayth­fulnesse is a deadly synne or syn to death. And though a fayth­ful beleuer, is without this syn, that is to say, without infideli­tie, yet he is not without vyce or syekenesse, which he must be ware of always, lest he be drou­ned [Page] in syn. or soiled & defiled wt the abhominable fylthynesse of sinnes: & therfore it followeth in Iohn: We do know, that all that is borne of god, sineth not: but he that is borne of god, doth kepe himself, & theuyll toucheth him not. So therfore the godly sineth not: & though he falleth by frailnes, yet notwithstāding that malicious Satan can not catche him. For the diligent stu­dy & labor, that the godly dothe take, in shunnynge & auoidyng synne (that is to say faith) doth that syn is not imputed for syn. It is written in the .viii. Rom. That ther is no condemnacion vnto thē that be in christ, which do not walke after the flesh, but after the spirit. Els saint Iohn doth say in the same self epistle: If we do say, we haue no syn, we deceyue our selfꝭ, & truth is not [Page] in vs. If we do cōfesse our sines god is both faithful & rightwise to forgeue vs our sinnes, and to clense vs from our iniquitie. If we do say, we haue no synne, we make him a lier, & his worde, is not in vs. There be many suche places euery where in the scrip­tures. Dauid doth crye out: O Lorde, do not enter into iudge­ment, with thy seruaunt, for in thi sight, no mā shalbe iustified. And agayne, if thou lookest ex­tremely vpon our synnes, o lord who is able to abyde it? In the xliii. of Esa. the lord doth speke thus, by the Prophet, vnto the Iues, which dyd glorify & boast them selues in the rightwysnes of ye law. I am he, I am he (saith y lord) that taketh away thyne iniquities, for myne owne sake, & wyll not remembre thy sines. [Page] Bring me into remembraunce, let vs be iudged together, telle furth if thou hast any thyng, to iustifie thy selfe. Thy father hath synned fyrst, and thyne in­terpreters haue gone out of the way. None of the most holy men were euer without sinne, which thyng manifestly appereth, in Adam, Noe, Abraham, Isaac, Iacob, Moyses, Aaron `Dauid Iosias, Ezechias, Peter, Paul, Matew. &c. Therfore Iob spea­keth truly. Iob .ix. What am I, that I should answer him, and speake with him, with my wor­des, which though I had some rightwysnesse, wyl not answer, but entreate my iudge. If I wyll iustifye my selfe, my mouth shall condemne me: if I say that I am innocent, my mouth shall proue me wicked. &c. Paule in [Page] the .iii. Rom. sayeth, that al men haue sined, & do want the glory of god. In y .xiii. of Ihon, christ sayeth, he that is washed hath no neade, but to wash his feete: for he is all cleane. If he be all cleane, what neade hathe he, to wash his feete? If he hath neade to wash his feete, how can he be all cleane? Therfore we ar clen­sed & purified, with the blood of Christ, that was shed vpon the crosse, from the filthines of syn, & be all cleane, But it followeth not by this, that we be no more i the flesh, or that we be no more synners. For the dregges of syn do remayne in our feete, that is to say, in our affections, as long as we liue, & walke in this dust i and foule way, we are soyled & contaminated, with the filthy­nesse of synne, which we neade, [Page] with perpetuall study and dai­ly care, to washe awaie, and af­terwardes, to wype out, these filthinesses, with gret inward grefe repentaunce, and teares, in the vertue of the passion and death of Chryst. Finally christ, in the .xv. of Iohn saieth: I am the trewe vine, and my father is the husbande man. He doeth take awaie euery bough in me that bringeth forth no fruite, & euery bowgh y bryngeth for the fruite, he doeth purge & make cleane, that he mai bryng forth more fruite. By the which sai­ynges we maie vnderstande, ye we that are in Christ, thorowe faith, as a bowgh, is in y vine, & doo bryng forth fruite, liuyng godly, haue neuerthelesse nede to be made cleane, and that, by the spirit, and vertue of Christ. [Page] Now, ye, which is made cleane, must nedes to be vnpure, & vn­clene? So we, that ar in Christ alredy ar made clene daily, for we do offend in many thinges, and no man is liuyng, that sin­neth not, and that hath no nede of this clensyng. Except the A­nababtistes, whiche in their hathe, be made so pure & clene, by their water, wherwith thei do wash their disciples, among whom, water doeth take awaie that, which the blood of Christ doeth not take awaie in them, that are godly.

Sy.

I do not see yet proued, that he, which fal­leth againe, after that he hath knowen the truthe, doeth daily fynd grace & pardon.

Io.

It is sufficientli proued by y saiyngs of Iohn, and by the exemple of Dauyd, and of Peter. For if [Page] we be all synners, and yet ne­uerthelesse doo entre, into the kyngdome of heauen, where no vncleane thing entreth, it folo­weth that our synnes are for­gyuen vs.

Sy.

I do not denay, but that we were ones all syn­ners, & that those synnes were ones forgyuen vs, by Chryste. But I will saie this, that after that the synnes, which we com­mitted before, thorow ignorā ­cye, be ones, thorow the grace of God forgyuen vs, and so bee receaued by the free gyfte and goodnesse of Christ, in to y numbre of the chyldren of god, that then we be pure holy, and clene, and that we ought to synne no more, and that, if we synne wit­tyngly, after that we haue ones knowen & receaued the grace, such sinne is not forgiuen.

Io.

[Page]But thou mightest, sufficiently vnderstand by the places afore aledged▪ that we be yet sinners styll, after that we haue kno­wen the truthe, and that those sinnes, which we do daily com­mit as long, as we ar in Christ [...]e daily forgyuen vnto vs. For Chryste saieth, that his disci­ples, are all cleane, but neuer­thelesse that thei haue neade to washe their fete. And again, the father dooeth make cleane the bowghes, that doo bring forth fruite in Christe. If thei dooe bryng forth fruit, thei do bring forth fruite, in faith, and in the knowen truthe (for without faith, it is impossible, that any man shulde please God, & what so euer is without faith, is sīne and not fruit) If thei be made cleane, thei haue some filthines [Page] in the knowen truthe. Els thei shulde be cleane, and shuld nede no clensynge or purgynge. But sith that thei be made clene, the filthinesses that thei do gather in bringyng forth fruit, ar for­geuen and washed awaie. Nei­ther Pelagius, nor Nouatus, nor none of the Anababtistes, is able to withstand this veri­tee.

Sy.

I am not farre frome this opinion, yet notwithstan­ding, had I leuer to heare plain scriptures, that a man, maie come to grace, as often, as he synneth.

Io.

And that can I shew vnto the, besyde, the fore aleged places. The lorde spea­keth thus by Ezechiell: When the vngodly shall turne from y vngodlines, that he hath done, & doeth iudgement & rightwis­nesse, he shall get life vnto his [Page] soule. Is the death of ye vngod­ly, a pleasure vnto me, saieth y lorde, and not rather, that he turne from his waies and liue? Turne and repent from al your iniquitees, and your iniquitee shall not hurt you. In the .ii. of Ioel. Turne to ye lord your god (saieth he) for he is gentill, and piteful, he is pacient, & of great mercifulnes, & repenteth vpon y plage, yt he had threatened.

Sy

That, whiche thou hast aleged, is to be vnderstanded of the vn­godly, & of y remission of sinnes yt is graunted vnto them, that neuer knew god, & neuer bele­ued in him.

Io.

I wold y thou shuldest loke better vpon y wordes of Ezechiell, thou shuldest se, yt he speaketh these woordes to y children of Israell, whiche were the chosen people of god. [Page] Moreouer considre, with what ende, he dooeth conclude this chapiter. Why shoulde ye dye (saieth he) o ye house of Israel, I wyll not the death of a sinner but y hereturn & lyue. Or canst thou returne to hym, with whō thou wast neuer before?

Sy.

No, but I doo come to hym, and do not returne, but with whom I was afore, and from whome I was gone, to hym doo I return againe.

Ioi.

Ergo it foloweth, that they, which are exhorted, by the prophete, to returne to god, were somtymes with god. If thei were sometymes with god: ergo this is not the fyrste sinne, that thei did committe, afore that thei knew the truthe but it was the synne, that thei committed, after that thei knew the truthe and had faith. [Page] We haue proued, I thynke, that the synnes that we cōmit after the knowledge of the truth, are forgeuen, by God. In the .xxiiii. of the Prouerbes, it is written that a rightwyse man falleth vii. tymes in the day, & ryseth a gayne, but that the vngodly do fall, to their vtter dampnacion. Here thou hast a manifest and a playne difference, betwexte the godly & the vngodly, or betwixt the faithfull & infidell. The vn­godly, after that he is come, in to the bothomlesse pitte, of vn­godlynesse, dothe contempne, & remayneth in synne to the last ende with dispayre. A godlye man, is not he that synneth not, but he, which falling .vii. tymes in the day, doth not continew in synne, but ryseth agayne. With this place, are the Palagians, [Page] Nouatians, and Anababtistes confounded & conuicted. Adde vnto these the .xviii. of Mat. & the .xvii. of Luke, where Christ doth plainly say: If thy brother dothe trespasse agaynst the, re­buke him betwixte the and him alone, if he be sori for his offence or repenteth, forgeue thou him. And if he .vii. tymes in the day dothe offende the, & .vii. tymes in the day cometh to the saiyng: I am sory for myne offēce, thou shalt forgeue him.

Sy.

But he doth not saye, that he wyll for­geue vs our synnes.

Ioia.

Canst thou pray, or say thy Pater no­ster?

Sy.

yeas.

Ioia.

Doest thou not thou pray this: Forgeue vs our trespasses, as wee forgeue them that trespasse against vs? Vnto these woordes dothe the Lord adde, by and by, in the .vi. [Page] chapiter of Mathew. If ye doo forgeue vnto men their fautes, your father, that is in heauen, shall forgeue you also. Seyng therfore, that wee doo forgeue, vnto oure brethren daily, it fo­loweth, that the father of heauē forgeueth vs also daily. Do not the saintes or holy men pray so, and that euery day? Nowe, I aske the, whether they do lye before God: praiyng thus or not?

S.

They do not lye.

Io.

If they do not lye, it foloweth, that thei haue in them selfe trespasse and synnes. If so be, that synne, as thou thynkest, is not forgeuen, whye dyd Christe teache vs to prai so? forgeue vs our trespas. Is not this an abhominable thyng, that any man, whiche knoweth not, what he dooeth praye, shoulde take vpon hym, [Page] not only to be a teacher, but al­so to teache that whiche repu­gueth against ye manifest truth and prayers of the Sayntes? But what thynkest thou of Pe­ter, was he, a faithfull Christē man, & elected of God, or not?

Sy.

He was not a faithful Chri­sten man, afore his falle, els he wolde not haue denyed Christ.

Ioi.

If he had ben an infidel, to what intent were these wordes spokē. mat. xvi. Thou artchrist the son of the lyuyng god? Are these the wordes of an infidell. And agayne, if Peter had ben, an infidell or hipocrite, when he dyd make suche a godly con­fession, Christ would not haue sayde: Thou art blessed Symō: Flesh and blood hath not reue­lated this thynge, vnto the, but my father, which is in heauen. [Page] The LORDE prayseth not, hipocrites and infidels, but ab­horreth & hateth them, Mat. vi and .xxiii. He would not, haue said vnto him: he that is wash­ed, hath no neale, but to washe his feete. And agayne, Peter, I haue prayed for thee, that thy faith do not faile or slake. Rede besyde that, the .xvii. of Iohan. Now I aske the again, whether Peter was a faythful Christen mam, or not?

Sy.

The scripture doth compel me to confesse, that he was a faithfull christē man.

Io.

Now I aske agayn, whether his fall, was a synne or not?

Sy.

Agayne, the scripture cōpelleth me, to confesse that it was a synne, for he dyd wepe bitterly And agayn, if to deny christ, is no synne, what shalbe a syn thā?

Io.

Ergo, it followeth, by all [Page] these argumentes, that Peter dyd synne, after the knowledge of the truthe, and receiuyng of the fayth. Therfore, a faythfull man is not all without synne. And here Peter dyd commytte not a small, but a very greuous synne, denyeng thus, the Sa­uior of the worlde. Now I aske whether his synne was forgeuē him or not?

Sy.

yeas truly: for Christ sayeth: Whan thou arte turned agayne, conforte or con­firme thy brethren.

Ioia.

So shoulde the Anababtistes dooe, if they were sent by God. But seeyng that presumptuousnesse & partinacie hath sente them, and do so bytterly, & with suche stubburnesse, speake agaynst the gospell, teachyng for conforte, desperacion: they ar such Pro­phetes, as the Lorde doth com­playne [Page] vpon, in Ezechiel, which regarde nor care nothynge for the diseased & wounded sheepe, (which thing neuerthelesse, thei had learned of the Lord, which is deseruingly called the good & true shephearde. Luc. xxv. or of Paule. ii. Corin. ii.) but dissi­pate & scatter the Lordꝭ flocke. For what maketh them, besyde a singularitie, or singuler loue of them selfes, to separate them selfes, from our church, but that (as they do say) we be synners, that is to say, vsurers, publicās & dronkardes? I can not, but that I must cōfesse, that ther be many enorme sines vsed amōge vs (which is the more pitie) yet we ought not to dispayre of ma­ny, but that thei mai be brought to repentaunce. And truly, as for our elues, we are not very [Page] negligent or slouthfull in rebu­kynge synnes, criynge out styll bitterly against them, that commyt suche thynges. And yet a­gaynst the precepte of GOD, Math. xiii. and exemple of the Apostles, which dyd condemne no man rashly, they do separate them selues from vs. But this is the nature of Phariseis.

Sy.

As touchyng this article, I am sufficiently taught, & I thanke God of it,

Iaia.

Iohn, without exception, doth say: Chyldren, I haue written this vnto you, that ye shulde not synne, but if any man dothe synne, we haue our aduocate, before the father, that rightwise LORDE Iesu Christ. &c. Here no man can bryng any cauillacion. Christ is here named and appoynted to be Aduocate or mediator for [Page] all synners, and that, at all ty­mes, as he offereth him selfe. ri. Mathew, saiyng: Come vn­to me all ye that labor and are loadyd, and I wyll refresh you. That same thyng doeth Paule teache, concernynge the onely Sauior Iesu Christ .i. Tim. i. It is a faythfull saiyng, and worthi to be receiued of al men, that Christ dyd come, into this worlde to saue synners. If the Anababtistes therefore, dooe teache the contrarye, they are the open enemyes of the Crosse of Christ: in the which opinion, if they doo abyde, or persist ob­stinately, they are manifest he­retikes, whome all godly persones ought to flye and ab­horre.

The .ix. treatie or dialoge.

How that our saluacion and rightwisnesse, is not to be descri­bed to our workes but to faith.

Symon.

IF the Anababtistes doo teache, that our saluacion, & right­wisnes, ought to be ascribed to our workes (whiche is the .iii. parte of this article) thou wilt not saie (I thynke) that thei doo erre in it.

Ioiada.

There is nothyng that I will graunt them, lesse. For this thynge beynge ones graunted, al ye epistles of Paul ar condemned, as false, & whi­che dyd seduce the people. For this is the thyng onely, wher­fore Paule, with suche a zeale did repugn & resist against false prophetes, whiche did teache, [Page] that rightwisnesse dyd come of workes: where as sainte Paul did attribute our rightwisnes to faithe. That maie easily bee sene by ye epi. to the Ro. and to the Gala. But I wil bring out of them, certaine places, which can not be confuted. In the .iii. cha. to the Romains, Paul sai­eth thus: All haue synned and ar destitute of the glory of god, but are iustified freely by his grace, thorowgh the redemcion that is in Christ Iesu. And in the .iiii. Ro. If Abraham were iustified by workes, thē hath he wherin to reioice, but not with god, for what saieth ye scripture Abrahā beleued god, & it was counted vnto him, for rightwisnes. To him yt worketh is ye re­warde not reckened of fauoure but of dutye. To him y worketh [Page] not, but beleueth in hym, that iustifieth, the vngodly, is his faith counted for rightwisnes. Euen as Dauid describeth the blessedfulnes of that man, vnto whom god imputeth righwis­nesse without dedes. Blessed ar thei (saieth he) whose iniqui­ties are forgiuen, & whose sin­nes are couered. &c. And in the xi. to the. Ro. There is a reme­naunt left accordyng to the e­lection of grace, if it be of grace then it is not now, of workes. For thā grace is no more grace But if it be of workes, then is it no more grace. For then wer deseruyng, no more deseruyng. In the seconde to the Galathi­ans: The lyfe, whiche I nowe lyue in the fleshe, I lyue by the faith, of the sonne of God, whi­che loued me, and gaue hym [Page] selfe for me, I despise not the grace of God. For if right­wisenesse cometh of the lawe, then Chryste, is dead in vaine. In the thyrde chapiter, he do­eth argumente and reasone af­ter this maner: That no man is iustified in the sight of God, by the lawe, it is euydent. For the iuste shall lyue by faythe. The lawe is not of faythe, but the man, that fulfylleth the thynges, conteyned in the law, shall lyue in them. Chryst hath delyuered vs from the curse of the lawe, in as muche, as he was made accursed for vs, that the blessing of Abraham might come on the gentilles thorough Thesu Chryste, and that we myght receaue the promise of y spirit, thorow faith. Brethern, I speake after y maner of men. [Page] Though it be, but a mans te­stament, yet if it be alowed, no man despiseth it, or addeth any thyng ther vnto. To Abraham, and his sede, was the promise made. He saieth not, in thy se­des, as in many, but in thy sede as of one, which is Christ, this I saie, that the lawe, which be­ganne. CCCC and .xxx. yeres after, doeth not disanulle the testament, which was confir­med afore of God, vnto Christ warde, to make ye promise of no effecte. For if the inheritaunce cometh of ye law, then it cometh not of ye promise. But god gaue it, vnto Abraham by promise. For if ther had ben a law geuē, which could had geuen life, thē no doubt rightwisnesse, shoulde haue comed by ye lawe. But the scripture, concluded al thinges [Page] vnder sinne, yt the promise, by y faith of Iesu Christ, might bee geuen vnto them yt beleue. In ye ii. cha. to the Ephe. ye ar saued thorow faith, & not of our owne selues. It is the gift of god, and cometh not of our dedes or workes. For we ar his owne work­māshyp, created in Iesu Christ to do good dedes, which he hath prepared for vs to walke in, & in the .iii. to Ti, we wer also fo­lyshe, disobediente, deceaued, seruyng to lustes and voluptu­ousnes, liuyng in malice, and enuye, hatefull or odiouse and hatyng eche other. But after yt the goodnes and loue of our sa­uiour God, not accordynge to the dedes of rightwisnes, whi­che we haue done, but accor­dyng to his mercye, had made vs safe, by the fountayne of [Page] regeneracion, and renuynge of the holy ghost, whiche he hath poured vpon vs abundantely, thorow our sauiour Iesu christ that we beyng iustified by his grace, shulde be made heyres of euerlastyng lyfe, accordyng to our hope. These places are plaine, and can not be auoided. For thei, that speake againste them, are no christen men, but felowes of the false Apostles, against whome Paule writeth, callyng them euyll workemen, and subuersours of the gospell of Christ. And by these wordes, not onely the Anababtistes, but also, all popishe doctours, are noted, and whosoeuer besyde, doo attribute our rightwisnes and saluacion to our dedes & workes.

Sy.

I can saie nothing against the manifest veritee. [Page] But I wold faine know of the, in what reputacion thou haste the epistle of Iames, and how muche thou doest esteme it.

Io.

And I aske the first, what thou thinkest, or what oppinion and iudgement thou haste, of the a­fore aledged places, and howe strong thou coūtest them to be.

Sy.

Thei are manifest, and true and also strong enoughe, and dooe attribute saluacion, and iustifiyng: to faith, but Iamis doeth adscribe saluacion to our woorkes and dedes.

Ioiada.

What semeth vnto the then? is it right, yt many places, shulde geue the ouer hande to one, or one place to many.

Symon.

The interpretaciō of one place, must bee taken out of many. But what dooeth this to the epistle of Iames?

Ioiada.

Had the [Page] apostles all one learnynge and spirite?

Symon.

All one. But I asked the, touchynge the wor­des of Iames.

Ioiada.

I haue had alwaies in singulare repu­tacion, the epistle of Iames, and haue alwaies geuen great credit & a faith vnto it, though it hath ben suspected by Euse­bius, and other besyde, & coun­ted lesse apostolicall. But if it be Apostolical, it foloweth, that it hath the same meanyng and spirit, that the epistles of Paul haue. For this thou hast graū ­ted before, that thei had al one learnyng and spirit, moreouer that the places, whiche I haue aledged out of Paule, and doo adscribe saluacion to faythe, and not to woorkes, are bothe true and stronge. Now it folo­weth necessarily that it is not [Page] the meanynge of Iames, that woorkes shoulde iustifye and saue, and that therefore this darke place and saiyng of Ia­mes ought to be expounded, by many plaine and manifeste te­stymonyes of Paule.

Symon.

What is that?

Ioiada.

That is to saie, that Iames dooeth not goe about, to proue, that workes iustifie, and that fayth iustifieth not, but that faithe without workes, is no faithe, but an oppiniō and credulitie, or light beleue, which faith can not saue. And y it is sufficient to saluacion to trust & leyne v­pon this vaine oppinion. It is manifest therfore, y Iames doeth not take here faith, for that true and liuely faithe (whiche faith is a gyft of God, and re­nuyng of the mynde, and lyfe) [Page]but for a false oppinion, which foolyshe men do call faith, with the whyche faythe, the diuell beleueth, all quakyng and trē ­blyng, but by it, he is made ne­uer the better, nor saued. Be­syde that, he vnderstandeth not humaine or bare workes with­out faithe, but faithe workyng effectually thorough charitee and loue. Ponder the wordes of saynt Iames, and thou shalt perceiue, that he proueth there, partly, that faithe can not bee without workes, partly that faith workyng thorough cha­ritee, doeth bothe iustifie and saue. Therefore Iames dooeth not disagree from Paule, but meaneth al one thing with him agreyng, both in one spirit and learnyng.

Sy.

Yet it semeth vn­to me, that our saluacion is ad­sribed [Page] to workes, when it is attributed to faythe. For if faith can not be without wor­kes, nor workes without faith, thei must be all one thyng, and that, which is attributed to one is attributed to the other.

Ioia.

Faith and woorkes are almost so one thynge, as the godhed, and manhead, are one persone in Christe. And yet it folowed not that the godhed is mortal, because that Christ dyed in ve­ry dede vpon the crosse. Yet notwithstandyng, it is all one per­sone. whyche can not be diui­ded. So we maie speake in this busynesse. Faith iustifieth. Here faith is taken, for the election, and grace of God, and also for the redempcion, whiche is not adscribed to our owne workes, though thei can not be separa­ted [Page] from faith, and which folo­wyng most certainly of faithe, are very sure & vndoubted sig­nes & tokens of faith and elec­tion of god. For so Paul doeth speake: Whom he hath prede­stinated, them dydde he chose, whom he hath chosen, them did he call, whome he hath called, them dyd he iustify. And Iohn also: We knowe, that when he shall appere, we shall bee lyke vnto hym, and euery man that hath this hope, doth make him selfe cleane, as he is pure .i. Io. iii. In one sonne, there is bothe lyght and heate, and the one is not from the other. Yet notwithstandyng the lightyng or illu­minacion, is attributed to the lyght, and not to the heate, and the heatyng or warmenesse, is adscribed to the heate, and not [Page] to the lyght.

Symon.

But the scriptures dooe often and in many places, adscribe saluaci­on, to oure woorkes and meri­tes.

Ioiada.

That is done, not because that the worke, shoulde bee barely taken by it selfe, but as a woorke or dede, comyng of faithe, wherby that, whiche is farthest, and chyefest (that is to saie faythe) maie be manifested, and shewed. I aske the, can a man, dooe any good thynge of hym selfe.

Symon.

No. For no man, is good, but god onely.

Ioiada.

And Christ saieth in the .xv. of Iohn. As boughes can not brynge forthe fruite, excepte, they remayne stylle, in the vine. So ye can bryng forthe no fruite excepte ye remayne in me. For with­out me ye can dooe nothynge. [Page] Now I aske againe, who brin­geth forth the grapes and the wyne?

Symon.

The vine.

Ioia.

If god, shoulde take awaie his strengthe frome the vyne, and shoulde not worke in it, that, which we dooe see, coulde that vine brynge for the wyne?

Sy.

No.

Ioiada.

The chyefe thyng therefore that geueth wyne, is not the vyne, but God, and yet notwithstandyng, we dooe adscribe the wyne to the vyne, whereas it dooeth onely come of God.

Symon.

I can saye no­thynge agaynste the truthe.

Ioiada.

It is all one reason, when the saluacion and euer­lastynge lyfe, is attributed to oure owne workes, where as it cometh of God onely, and of gratuitee and free election. For GOD worketh [...]s, [Page] bothe to be willyng, and to doo or performe the thyng, that he hathe moued vs, to be willyng to do, accordyng to his bountu­ous wyll. He, I say, worketh in vs good workes, as in his ele­ctes, notwithstanding the wor­kes ar attributed vnto vs, and are called ours, whiche neuer­thelesse are Gods, that glory & honor may be geuē to god only. Doest thou vnderstande what I say?

Sy.

I doo vnderstand it very well.

Ioia.

Dothe it satis­fie thee?

Sy.

ye as truly, Now do I perceiue, that the lernyng of the Anababtistes, cometh of ygnoraunce and boldnesse, and that it is very pernicious and hurtfull, whiche is gaye in the syght of the simple, but in dede is an error, & malicious rude­nesse [...]ut I desyre to knowe, [Page] what thou wylte saye of the .v. conclusiō: For they be fully per­suaded, that soules are a slepe.

The .x. treatie or dialoge.

How that the Soules after that thei be departed from the body do not slepe, but lyue in christ.

Ioiada.

BVt, with this opinion, they do abolish the gospel, which teacheth of the resurrection of Christ: as saynt Paule, in the fyrst chap. to the Romayns, doth say: Besyde that, they doo denye, the last Article of oure fayth, that is to saye: The lyfe euerlastyng, after this lyfe. Is not this therfore a pernitious Doctrine, that repugneth a­gaynst so manifest veritie, and sure beleue?

Sy.

Thou doest not vnderstande the Anabaptistes, [Page] For they doo neyther denye the Gospell, nor the Resurrection of Christ. They saye that the Soules, after the deathe of the bodye, (if they dooe departe in fayth) do slepe in the bosome of Abraham, tyl the day of iudge­ment, & that then, they do entre into euerlasting life. And proue their saiynges by the gospell, & by Paule. Luc. xvi. i. Thess. iiii. I wyl not haue you to be igno­raunt touchyng them, that are a slepe. &c. In the Olde Testa­ment, it is written of the Fa­thers, that thei fal a slepe, with their Fathers. And also, it is sayde of Stephen, that he dyd slepe in the Lord. And that thei at lengthe, shall receyue euer­lastyng lyfe, they do proue it by Paule .ii. Timoth. iiii. I haue sayeth he, fought a good fyght. [Page] Now is there layde vp for me, a croune of rightwysnesse, which the Lorde, who is a rightfull iudge. shall geue or render vnto me, vpon that day, not onely to me, but also to al them that loue his comynge. There is suche a thyng. Phil. iii. & i. Iohn. iii. Or what neade is it, of that last iudgement, if by & by, after his death, euery man receyueth his owne dome: these do seme vnto me strong. Nowe wyll I fayne he are what thou canst saye a­gaynst it.

Io.

I saye the same thyng that I sayde before. If our soules dooe sleepe, after the death of the bodye, the soule of Christ sleepeth also, and the re­surrection is disanulled. For Christ dyd proue that ther was an euerlasting lyfe by his rising agayne, which can not be euer­lastyng, [Page] if the soule slepeth, and begynneth then to lyue, when iudgement dothe come. Wher­fore the sleepe of the Anabab­tistes, dothe euacuate and dis­anull, the gospell and resurre­ction. As for the bosome of A­braham, I aske the whether it be, a slepyng place & dormitori, or a receptacle, and place to re­ceyue the lyuyng?

Sy,

A place whervnto, the soules of ye faith­full Christen men, ar gathered together, tyll the day of iudge­ment.

Ioi.

Where is that place, aboue, or benethe?

Sy,

It is vn­certeyne to me, God doth know. Nor it is not lawfull for vs, to enquyre

Sy.

So ye do defend al vncertayne thynges, that ye do teache. And ye that do speake & babble muche of the bosome of Abraham, and do not know yet [...]

[Page] That comyng of Christ shall be in the last day of all.

Ioia.

What and I vnderstande that, of the comyng of Christ, at the ende of euery mans lyfe?

Sy.

So thou doest say: but it must be proued by the holy scriptures.

Io.

These ar not my wordes, but the wor­des of him, that speaketh there, of his owne death. For he vseth this word, to go, for to dye. (so that to go, and to dye, is all one thyng, with him) And agayne, this worde, to come, wherfore the Anababtistes doo stryue, is not taken, for his last comyng, but for the resurrectiō of christ: and ye helpe and ayde, that he sheweth vpon the faythfull christen men being in extreme nede. For he came agayne, after that he was rysen from death, & dyd declare, that he had opened the [Page] kingdom of god: that we might be sure, that as he dyd entre in to heauen him selfe, so we shuld come in or entre in also. But he is entered, in to immortal lyfe, & not in to slepe, in to the kyng­dome of God, and not in to the bosome of Abraham, and that by & by after his death. Ther­fore we shall also, incontinent after our death, entre in to euerlastyng lyfe, and into the king­dome of God. For he taketh vs away, when he calleth vs from death to lyfe. Iohn. v. For it is added by maner of exposicion: That where I am, ther ye may be also. Therfore are we taken in soule, from death to euerla­styng lyfe, & in body, to iudge­ment. Or tell me, dyd Christ with his death, reserate & open heauen, whiche was locked vp [Page] afore or not?

Sy,

I do graunt that he did opē it.

Ioi.

But what neadeth this reseration or ope­nyng, if the soules doo not entre in to lyfe? Where as notwith­stādyng Paul doeth say: I co­ueit to be dissolued, & deliuered from this body, & to be wt christ. beleuyng that after this death, he should be with Christ. Peter moreouer doeth saye, that for this cause, the gospel was prea­ched vnto the dead, that they shuld be iudged in the flesh, but lyue, after, or in ye spirit, do not these manifest places teache & proue, that the soules doo lyue, with God? For he sayeth that y gospell was preached vnto the dead: What is els the gospel, to be preached, but redemption & lyfe to be preached. And what were they that were dead, but [Page] they, which after that thei were departed, were gathered in the bosome of Abraham?

Sy.

But howe was the gospell preached vnto them?

Ioia.

The vertue of the passion of Christ, and the fruit of his death, which were profitable vnto them.

Sy.

How?

Ioi.

Because that they being de­liuered, thorough the death of Christ, ar receiued, as touching their soules, into euerlastyng lyfe. In the last day, they shall ryse bodily, and as all other, shall be iudged, in the vniuer­sall iudgement. In the meane season their soules do liue with God. Is it proued sufficiently that the soules that wer in the bosome of Abraham are dely­uered, & brought in to heauen?

Sy.

I dooe not saye agaynst it.

Ioia.

And thou shalt fynde none [Page] other thing in the word of god▪ It followeth therfore, that th [...] Bosome of Abraham is no dor­mitory, or slepyng place, but an euerlastyng lyfe: Which thyng we may proue by the .xvi. of Lu▪ For ther it is written, that La­zarus is in ioy and solace, whe [...] as the rycheman is punyshed in hell. If so be that the soule (as ye doo say) shulde slepe, she coulde haue no ioye, excepte i [...] were by dreames: if she reioy­seth or haue ioy, it is impossible that she shoulde slepe. Likewis [...] it is manifest li knowen & shew­ed in the .viii. of Mathew, that many shall come, & sytte in the kyngdome of God, with Abra­ham, Isaak, and Iacob. That in the meane season, I shoulde sai nothing, that slepe is clean [...] contrarye to the nature of the [Page] soule, which is in Greke called [...]ntesecheia, or Endesechia, that is to sai [...] perpetuall and vnrequietable [...]otion or workyng.

Sy.

These [...]hinges are more manifest, and more strong, then I thought.

Ioia.

It is the poynte of an vn­wise man to say, I thought not, and hauyng hearde, but one [...]arte, to geue sentence. The A­ [...]ababtistes do aduaunce, and [...]et forth gaily, and paintyngly their argumentes, but they are weake and nothyng strong.

Sy.

I woulde fayne know, in what significaciō, the scripture vseth this worde to slepe, which is so often tymes founde, in e­uery place of the Bible.

Ioia.

Among the auncient fathers, this worde, to slepe, was to dye naturally, or after the commen course of nature. And because [Page] of the resurrectiō, it was saied, that thei which dyd dye, sleape. For as a man geueth hym selfe to sleape, doubting nothing, but that he shall wake agayne from his sleape: so the body sleapeth that is to say dyeth, & doeth ly [...] in the graue, beyng kepte there [...]yl the day of the general resur­rection. So the Fathers dy [...] sleape: so Stephen, & all othe [...] godly persons. Seyng therfor [...] that to sleape, is to dye, and th [...] soules can not dye, it foloweth that they canne not sleape. Fo [...] Stephen dyd saye: Lorde, receiue thou my spirite, which thyng: when he had saied, & ha [...] cōmitted or cōmended his soul to the heauenly father, his bod [...] sleapynge, dyd dye. In thy thyng, they are deceyued, tha [...] they do attribute vnto the sou [...] [Page] that which belongeth to the bo­dy only. But in the meane seasō it is attributed to the whole mā because of the vnitie of the body and of the soule, beyng knytted in one persone. Which example was brought afore, of Christ, in whom the body died only, & not his godhead, nor his soule. Ly­kewyse a man slepeth, but with his bodye, & not with his soule. The Anababtistes doo not, nor wyl not vnderstand this figure Sin [...]cdoch [...], nor the other figures, & tropes. Which thyng causeth them to erre in many thynges. But ignorauncye maketh them the bolder, to teache, what so e­uer they do dreame or conceyue in their sleape.

Sy.

Yet it is eui­dent that Paul saith, that a co­toune of rightwisnes shalbe rē ­dered [Page] vnto him at lengthe, when th [...] Lorde cometh. And also that which is written in Iohn, an [...] in the Epistle to the Philipen [...] is sure and strongly grounded▪

Ioia.

This ought to be obserue [...] Symon, that the daye of th [...] Lorde in scriptures, is not al­wayes to bee taken for the las [...] day, but somtyme, for the truth and lyght: as in the gospell o [...] Iohn, otherwhyles for the vi [...] sitacion of the Lorde: as ofte [...] tymes, in the Prophetes, and . [...] Cor. iii. sometyme for the end [...] & death of euery man: as Ioh [...] vi. I wyll resussitate or rays [...] him agayne, to euerlastyng life in the last daye, that is to saye [...] when he dyeth. For when an [...] man dyeth, that day is last vnt [...] hym. After thys maner, dy [...] Paule call, the last daye, in th [...] [Page] Epistle to Timothe. For he had spoken before of his death, sai­yng: I am ready to be offered: affirming, that he had ben faith full and loyall, in his course, & therfore, he dyd not doubte, but that the rightwise iudge, shulde render vnto him, the coroune of rightwysnesse, which, as he lea­ueth no vnrightwysnesse vnpu­nyshed, so alwayes rewardeth them that lobor faithfully. And this place doeth rather for vs, then for the Anababtistes, seing that Paule dothe hope, that the coroune of rightwysnesse, duyd vnto the rightwyse, shalbe ren­deryd vnto him, at the tyme of his death. Ergo, he beleueth not, that the soules do slepe, but that they do lyue euerlastingly. That, which thou aledgest out of Iohn and Paule to the Phi­lipenses, [Page] are spoken, of the last iudgement, but they proue not that the soules are a sleape. For that, whiche they doo speake of saluation there, dooe perteyne more to the resurrection of the body. For these are the wordes of Paule: He shall transforme (that is to say Christ) our vyle body, that he may make it con­forme and lyke, to his glorious body. What meane these thingꝭ elles, but that our bodyes haue full hope of resurrection. or ri­syng agayn? As Iob dyd speke Iob .ix.

Sy.

If the soules dooe receyue by and by, their iudge­ment as sone, as they be depar­ted, what neadeth that vniuer­sall iudgement?

Ioia.

It per­teyneth to the whole man, whi­che shall be repayred or made new agane, with the body, that [Page] shall ryse, & with the soule. Of the which thyng, it is written, Chess .iiii. & Mat. xxiiii. & .xxv. Doest thou yet desyre any thīg?

Sy.

I had leauer heare foun­dations and groundes oute of the scriptures.

Ioia.

I haue brought verye many alreadye, what dooest thou aske more?

Sy.

Thou hast other helpes yet, the which I pray the, to bryng forth.

Ioia.

Seynge that thou arte desyrous of the truthe, I wyll hyde nothyng frome the. This Doctrine and Opinion, of the Sleape of the Soules, dooeth not ouelye repugne a­gaynst the Scriptures & fayth, dooeth not onely disanulle the Gospell and Resurrection of Christ, but is also agaynst all cōmune sense & reasone, a rude and vnclearkelye ignoraunce, [Page] but go to, let vs expounde these thyngꝭ: I aske thee, if the soule be a body, or a spirite?

Sy.

It is not a bodye, nor any grosse sub­staunce, but a syngle and pure spirite.

Ioia.

Can then a spirite be subiect to bodily infirmities, as to be an hongered, to be we­ryed, to dye. &c.

Sy.

No, for these perteyne to the bodye onely. A spirite, is immortall, incorrup­tible, euerlasting or perpetuall.

Ioiada.

Thou sayest very well, therfore marke thyne argumēt thus: Sith the soule is a spirit, & not a bodye, it can not be sub­iecte to bodily passions or infirmities, but is exempte frome them: slepe doth chaunce to the body, thorough werinesse. Ergo the soule can not slepe: for the soule cannot be weary. Or canst thou brynge any other thynge [Page] concernyng slepe?

Sy.

No, for all operacions and senses dooe ceasse and rest, and excepte the body shulde brethe, folkes wold thynke that it were dead.

Ioia.

Now, if our soules should slepe, it shoulde folow, that after this lyfe, we doo feele neither good, nor euyll, which dothe directly pugne agaynste the Gospell. Moreouer, we wyl proue by the nature of the slepe, that the sou­les can not slepe, but the bodye only. For now I aske the, when doeth the soule slepe, after that she is departed frome the body, or when she is yet ioyned to the body?

Sy.

At bothe tymes.

Ioi.

Neither of them can be trew: and I do meruail that so grosse an answere dyd come from the. For seyng that the Soule, can muche lesse slepe, when she hath [Page] put awaye the burdeyn of th [...] body, then when she beareth a­bout yet, the burdeyn of the bo­dy, & doeth not sleape, when sh [...] is yet in the bodye, it followet [...] that she sleapeth muche lesse, when she is deliuered from th [...] bodye And that she doeth not slepe beyng in the body, it maye be knowen by thys, that in the tyme of wakyng, the body doth alwayes, without rest & quyet, worke, which actions do come from the soule. Ergo, it is ma­nifest, that whiles that the body waketh, the soule sleapeth not. And agayn, when the body hath geuē it self to rest & to slepe, the soule worketh with a perpetual motion or mouyng, & doeth ne­uer rest or ceasse, either she bre­theth, or doeth some thynge al­wayes, withe the vertue of re­membraunce [Page] & vnderstādyng, or with the other excellent ver­tues & powers. All mans lyfe is eyther wakynge, or rest: in none of them bothe, doeth the soulesleape. Ergo the soule do­eth not sleape at all. Therfore slepe, longeth only to the body, & not to the soule. For when the soule begīneth ones to haue life it is a perpetual Entesechia, come­yng frō the euerlasting & eter­nall fontayne of goodnesse, the which perpetuall Entesechiia, that is to say, vnrequietable, & per­petuall action and mouyng in the soule, if any man denayeth, by that same reason he must de­nay the soule

Sy.

These thyngꝭ are somewhat darke vnto me.

Ioiada.

Therefore, I wyll de­clare them, by an exāple: Fyer is a very pure & actuall thyng, [Page] whiche after that it begynneth ones, can neuer ceasse from his operacion and workyng, tyll it be quenched: and that is, when it hathe nothyng, whervpon, it maye shew, and exercise his o­peracion. If thou denyest the o­peracion & working of the fier, thou hast denyed the fyer. The nature of the soule is very like, which after, that she is poured in to the body, by god, is a liue­ly and working spirite, and can neuer ceasse nor be at rest. Wylt thou haue no fyer, take awaye the operacion. If thou denyest the Soule, attribute vnto her, slepe. For to say, that the soule is a slepe, and to saye, that the soule is not, is all one thyng.

If the soule slepeth, she dooeth rest, if she dooeth rest, she wor­keth not, if she doeth not worke, [Page] she is not. For to worke, and to be in the soule, is all one thing, [...]yth that she is a perpetual mo­tion, & workyng. But the soule is, therfore shee sleapeth not. Dooest thou vnderstande this thyng?

Sy.

Very well.

Ioia.

Therfore did I say, that the A­ [...]ababtistes knowe not, the na­ture of the soule.

Sy.

Thou shul­dest peraduenture haue persua­ded somewhat, to Timens, and Phedrus, Platos disciples, I had leauer heare Scriptures.

Ioia.

The Saduces, dyd teache that ther was no Resurrection, and by this, dyd denye the im­mortalitie, and perpetual wor­kyng of the soule, yea, and also Angels, and all maner of Spi­rites. Act. xiii. The Lorde dyd stop their mouthes, with these reasons. Ye erre (sayth he) not [Page] knowing the scriptures, nor the vertue of God. God, after the death of the Fathers, calleth hym selfe, the God of Abrahā, Isaac and Iacob, which is not the God, of the dead. but of the lyuyng, and that therfore, A­braham, and the other Fathers were a lyue, and not dead. Thei were dead in body, a gret whyle afore, and buryed: Therfore Christ speaketh here, of the lyfe of the soule. Ergo, the soule be­yng separated from the body, is in her owne kynde, worketh ly­uely, and slepeth not. This syl­logysme and argument, doo I put to all the Anababtistes, to answer to, that they may cleare them selfe frome the heresye of the Saduces. For thei are lyke vnto the Saduces and Mani­cheans. What shoulde I say of [Page] the wordes of Christ, whiche hangyng vpon the Crosse, doeth comforte, the thiefe with these wordes, saiyng: To daye thou shalte be with me in Paradise.

Sy.

Paradise, and the Bosome of Abraham, are all one thyng, to the Anababtistes, where thei say, that the soules doo sleape.

Ioia.

Thei do affirme this with out scriptures, and with an he­reticall spirite. Christ sayeth: To day, thou shalte be with me in Paradise. Ponder euerye worde. If Paradice, is a slea­pyng place, Christ sleapeth in it also. For he sayeth: To daye thou shalte be. Moreouer, the thiefe prayeth Christ, to remember him, when he shoulde come in to hys kyngdome. If the kyngdome of God, is a Dormi­torie or Sleapyng place: what [Page] doo the scriptures speake, of the Resurrection, and Ascendyng of Christ in to heauen? Ye ate obstacle asses, O Anababtistes, whiche dare make mention of suche sleapyng, agaynst so ma­nifest places of the scriptures. What shall thei say, to the wor­des of Christ. Iohn. v.? He that heareth my word, and beleueth in him, that hath sent me, shall not come in to iudgement, but is passed frome deathe to lyfe. Whiche woordes are so cleare, that no mā can denay them, but heretikes. Let the .xi. of Iohn. and the .xv. of the first Epistle to the Corinthians. Item the .ii. Cor .ii. be reade, and it shal euidently he knowen, that the sleape of the Anababtistes, is a blasphemy agaynst the Gospell and Resurrection of Christ.

Sy.
[Page]

If the matter be better loo­ked vpon: the Anababtistes can not cleare them selues, from the crime of ouer boldnesse & igno­rancye: but they haue not pon­dered all these thingꝭ so exactly

Ioia.

Why dooe they presume to teach then, & take vpō thē that, which passeth their strengthe? And agayne, when they be con­uicted, wyll not geue the vpper hande to the truthe? But be­cause they wyll be sene stedfast, they be founde, in all thynges, frowarde, and obstacle. To say briefly: They doo all thynges, with contention, arrogancye, and ignoraunce.

Sy.

I woulde had questioned with the, tou­chyng the .vi. Conclusion, but that I must go to myne Iune: Tomorow, if thou canst haue leasyr, I wyll be here betymes [Page] in the morning, and reason far­ther with the.

Ioiada.

I am well pleased, for I wyll go, to myne Inne also: be thou to mo­row, in better readinesse.

Symon,

God be with the.

Ioiada.

Fare well.

SOLIDEO HONOR ET GLORIA▪

¶ Thou shalt vnderstāde, good Christen Reader, that imme­diately after this, as sone as may be, thou shalte haue the se­conde Booke, whiche entreate vpon as many thynges as this Booke doeth, bothe fruitfull to be knowen, and also most neces­sarye for these perillouse ty­mes: in the which, the Diuell doeth all, that he can, to extin­guish the trew Doctrine of the Gospell: whiche at this tyme, thorough our godly Magistra­tes, doeth reuiue, and florish a­gayne: Fare well, and pray, that we may performe the Woorke that we haue in haude.

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