AS there be alwayes both friendes and enemies to the Church of God, so some doe giue their handes vn­to it as friendes, and some being enemies will giue it their left hande of friendshihpe to turne it cleane out of the way. Howe friendly Master Cartwright is to it, let vs examine by this his Letter, and by the grace of God, let vs trie out the trueth betwixt him and vs: his letter is in many mens handes, and was seene abroade vnsealed and open, as if he cared not who shoulde reade it, wherefore I may the more boldely answere it, and the rather because the matter thereof is publike and pertaining to the Church of God. It came but lately to my handes, and was written as they tell me more then fiue or sixe weekes agoe, wherein if he and others that prouoke him, sought not to take vs tardie in the trueth and to worke vs trouble, we would the les [...]e haue regarded his letters: but seeing he will needes make vs enemies to the common and ordinarie good lawes of the Realme, to the Church of god in the Realme, and to the peace and welfare of the common wealth: Let vs an­swere his cauilles: and for so much as we haue so small res­pite of time, let vs shortly gather vp his vntrueths and er­rours, and hurle them out by manifest & knowen markes, least any man doe beleeue them as trueth.

[Page 2] Master Cartwright doeth mooue the first question thus: That the outwarde profession made by the lawes of the lande, and the assemblyes of the Church helde accordingly, are con­dened as vnlawfull: this is the short (saith he) of M. Harrisons lōger discourse, if he vse to make such shorts, he is not meete to deale with short or with long. Let him lappe vp his shortes in his budget, and not sende them abroade in steade of our lengths or larger syse. For at the first brunt he would set against vs all these enemies: 1. The lawes of the lande. 2. The outwarde profession by the lawes. 3. The apparant Churches of Christ, 4 and the lawfull assemblyes thereof. First, for the lawes, he knewe well ynough what Lawes we meane: namely, certaine Popish Cannon lawes, which though the Magistrates doe tollerate for a time, yet the common good lawes of the lande are wholy against them. Where­fore let him not deale doubly with vs, as hauing our true meaning in his heart, to fumble out of his mouth or to shuffle vp in his letter a contrary meaning: we know that the lawes doe punish all outward grosse wickednesse, or suf­fer it to be punished: as namely, Idolatrie, forswearing, v­surping of Lordshippe, rebellion, murther▪ fleshly filthinesse, theft, op­pression, raylings, grieuous slanders, drunkennes, &c. and if there be any vice not punishable by the lawe, yet the lawes doe suffer either the Church, or euery housholder, or gouernour to correct (so it be not against lawe) such as are vnder their charge. So then the lawes are a wall to the Church rounde about: they stande vp for it as an armed man, that it may shewe it selfe openly without shame or feare. For when they put downe all outwarde grosse wickednesse, and will not suffer it, they doe as it were scatter and driue awaye darkenesse from the Church, that men may see it visible and cleare as the Sunne. Likewise for the outwarde pro­fession by the lawes, Master Cartwright woulde playe at handie dandie with vs, and yet not giue vs that hand which we doe choose: for there is an outwarde profession after the olde Popish traditions and orders, let him holde this [Page 3] profession in his left hande: and there is a profession more syncerely by some, after some better Lawes and Orders, this he shoulde houlde in his right hande: wherefore then doeth hee reach vs that in his right hande as taking it vn­lawfull, which we choose as lawfull. If he saye that wee condemne that ordinarie abused and corrupt profession of the most, I aunswere that the Lawes doe also the same: For the common Lawes are against the cannon Lawes in many hundreth poyntes, one giueth checke to the other as two Dames at variance in one house, the cannon is as fire in the house to burne it, the common is as water pow­ring downe to quenche it. The Popishe courtes esteeme all sortes of christians for churches of Christ, much like those harlots, that woulde haue many children though it were by fornication, that they myght rule ouer many, but the Common wealth reiecteth her children, as beyng children of Death, euen for smaller Theftes, Felonyes, Roginges, and Wanderinges, without honest Trades and laboures; as for the right corrections of Adulteryes, those Whoorish courtes haue taken so much vpon them, that the Ciuill Magistrates coulde not so well see to it be­fore this time. But nowe euen for this matter they haue giuen a great checke to the cannon Officers. Also for persecuting the brethren and sundry worthye men, their authoritie and cannon power hath receiued a great blowe and wounde. If there be contrary lawes one against ano­ther, as through change of tymes, variaunce of people, and other necessities, it may fall out, yet through fauour and helpe of good Magistrates, the lawe shall still be with the Church and not against it: As for the Maiestracie of By­shops there is no lawe to warrant it, but only her Maiesties permission: likewise for the common forme of seruice and prayers, there is exception by the lawe, and it is set downe also in the booke of Common prayer, that the prayers may be changed, intermitted, and left off by occasions: as when [Page] the Minister is to preach or applye him selfe to his studie for preaching. Further whereas the lawe doeth binde vs to come to the church, it doth well, for no man ought to refuse the Church of God, yet if when we come to the church, we finde there an vnlawfull minister, and a wicked confu­sion of all sortes of people, the fault is not nowe in the law but in the Byshoppes which place such ministers, and in their spirituall courtes which are authours of such confusi­on: for the Lawe commaundeth that the Minister should be Doctus and Clericus, which wordes doe require learning sufficient, and godlinesse meete for a cleargie man: other­wise howe shoulde he be Clericus that is one of the Lordes inheritance. But the Bishops count him learned if he can but reade onely, and answere to a catechisme as doe chil­dren: wherefore good Magistrates will execute the lawe according to the true meaning, and not according to the ex­tremitie of the wordes, and if they see to it, that men shall come to Church, they will first see that the church be bet­ter ordered that men may come with comforte, and not with heart burning to their conscience. Also for discipline in gathering the worthie from the vnworthy, the lawe ap­pointeth it and giueth leaue to make exception both in publique iudgement and in churches against vnworthye persons: as against Drunkennesse, fightings, murther, ad­ulteryes, stealth, slaunders, &c. and that before the Consta­bles, Iustices of Peace, Iudges and Iustices of Assises, and yet also doe giue libertie to the Church to vse their owne discipline. But eyther the Popes cannon lawes, and his of­ficers doe quite ouerthrowe it, or the Ministers are so ser­uile and foolish that they can not, or dare not execute it: It were too long to rehearse what libertie the lawes do yeelde to vs, and what outwarde profession there is by the lawes: but thus we conclude, that seeing very many of the Bishops doings and their officers are vnlawfull, and yet very vsual­ly and ordinarily professed, helde, and practised, we must needes say that such an ordinary profession is vnlawfull.

[Page] Nowe followeth the chiefest and greatest matter in controuersie: namely, Whether the ordinarie assemblies of the professors in Englande be the Churches of Christ. A part of this question he must make as he doeth the vsuall outward profession. What Master Harrison did write in his letter, and vpon what wordes Master C. doeth gather this questi­on, I can not tell: for I neuer sawe Master Harrisons letter: but I hope Master H. did not condemne any assemblyes, but abused assemblies, neither any professors, but false pro­fessors: wherefore let him take his right meaning, namely, The ordinarie abused assemblyes of false professors. But he will admit no such distinction: for belike he will haue no such assemblyes, yet in a time of better reformation then is now in Englande,Ierem. 3. 6. 1 [...] ▪ as in the dayes of King Iosiah, the Lord witnes­seth, that Iudah had not returned vnto him with their whole heart but faynedly. If they then were false professors, whose hypo­crisie was in their hearts, why should not they be false pro­fessors, which doe shewe foorth in practise a false professi­on, and that chiefely in their assemblyes? but whatsoeuer false profession they haue, and howe grosse soeuer their a­buses be, Master Cartwright will prooue them to bee chur­ches of Christ. But goe to, let vs examine his proo [...]es: those assemblyes haue Christ for their head and foundation, for saith hee, they beleeue in Christ, and haue the spirite of Christ, therefore they are the churches of Christ. Nowe to prooue that they beleeue, he bringeth in their profession: so that all Master Cartwrights arguments falleth from one to one, till it come to nothing at all, for from the head and foundation of the church, he descendeth to the spirite and to faith, and so at last to the outwarde profession. Nowe the outwarde profession must chiefely be shewed and iu­stified by the lawfull vsing of publique assemblyes. If they then be so shamefully abused by meanes of the bishoppes, and their officers, then his proofe of the outward professi­on also falleth to the ground. Thus of necessitie he must iu­stifie many grosse corruptions both in the assemblyes, & in [Page 6] sundry their practises and customes, or else laye by his proofe as vntrue. But what neede hee haue fetched about and made suche adoo, touching faith and the spirite, and the head and the foundation of the Church, and then to haue no other proofe but the question to prooue the que­stion. For the question is, whether the assemblyes bee lawfull outwarde Churches, being helde according to so corrupt professi­on? or whether the outwarde profession of the false profes­sours standing as it doeth, the assemblyes that are according, bee lawfull or no? Thus he prooueth idem per idem: it is so, be­cause it is so: it shall bee so, because it shall bee so. But marke his turning and shifting to and fro in this matter. For from the outward church and the outwarde profession he leapeth and fleeth to the spirite and faith, which are in­warde: and from the inwarde graces he returneth to the outwarde profession. Thus as one that is hunted with his enemie within, he runneth out, and being in daunger with­out he runneth in: for by faith which is inwarde, and the spirite that is inwarde, hee woulde iustifie an outwarde churche. Againe, by an outwarde, false, and corrupt pro­fession, he will iustifie the inwarde spirite and faith of professours, to bee syncere. Thus with turning and retur­ning to and fro, he woulde establishe his errour, but hee doeth wearie him selfe in vaine. Nowe as his dealing herein is ridiculous, so hee increaseth it vnto a shamelesse and blasphemous doctrine: For he sayeth that there being but one onely true Christian in a church, or congregation, and all the rest wicked, yea and so wicked that they haue but a bare profession in worde onely without any good workes, they shoulde all be counted the church of God, for that one mans cause. I maruaile howe his penne coulde droppe downe such poyson, and he not smell the stinch thereof as he wrote it: For by this doctrine euery faithfull christian shall bee aboue Christ. For Master Cartwright doeth giue them power to loose those on earth, which God doeth binde in heauen, and this power Christ neuer [Page 7] had: For if the faith of one or a fewe beleeuers in an as­sembly be of force to make them all the Church, though the rest be grosse offendours,Mat. 18. 18. then neede they to bynde none in earth: And why shoulde Saint Paule alleadge this power of our Lorde Iesus Christ,1. Cor. 5. 4. if all may bee taken for the Church by the faith of some?

For Master Cartwright will giue vs a contrary power, namely,Ierem. 7. 9. 1▪ to reckon all for the churche. But will you steale, murther, commit adulterie, and sweare falsely, &c. sayeth the Lorde, and come, and stande before me in this house whereupon my Name is called, and say, We are deliuered, though wee haue done all these abominations? If Master Cartwright shoulde an­swere this question, we shoulde heare those lying wordes (for so the Prophet tearmeth them) namely,Iere. 7. 4. The Temple of the Lorde, the Temple of the Lorde, allis the Temple and Church of god: But a denne of thieues is not the house and Temple of God. And if the faith of fewe will make many wretches to be the church, then the vnfaithfulnes of many shoulde be of force to make them all no Church: But as my wickednesse condemneth no man but my selfe, except they partake with me in my wickednes, so my faith iustifieth no man to be of the church, except they hold with me an outward good profe [...]sion according to faith. For shew me thy faith by thy works (saith S. Iam. 2) as who say,Iames 2. he would not beleue there were faith, if he saw not the works of faith. And Paul ioyneth the beleefe of the heart, Rom. 10. 10. and confession of the mouth both together, as needeful vnto righteousnes & saluation: and by the confession of the mouth, he meaneth al outward profession agreeing to faith, because the professiō by mouth is chiefest. He can not turne his words, as if he spake of one truly faithful, and all the rest secret hypocrites, for he spea­keth of the outward profession, of the outward works, and of the outward church, & granteth also that there are many outward & grosse abuses: further, he nameth that in wordes only they hold the true faith, as who say, be the deeds neuer so abhominable, yet for that faithful mans sake, they are al [Page] to be called one church with him. If Master Cartwright had sayde cleane contrary, he had spoken more truely: namely, that if among many good liuers, one wicked man were founde, as a m [...]rtherer, an idolater, or an adulterer, and the rest become so negligent or wilfull, or are helde in such spi­rituall bondage, that any one such open and manifest of­fence is incurable, then the couenant is broken and disanul­led with them all, till they repent and redresse such wicked­nesse. Proofe there is by the 7.Iosh. 7. 12. of Ioshua, the 13.Deut. 13. of Deutero­nomie, the 9.Ezra 9. of Ezra, the 20.Iudg. 20. of Iudges, the 3.Ierem. 3. 1. of Ieremie and 1. verse. By the punishment of the whole land for Sauls offence, 2. Samuel. 21.2. Sam. 21. By the ceremonies of leprosies. Of touching vncleane things. By the leauen (named of Paul) that leaueneth the whole lūpe 1. Cor. 5.1. Cor. 5. & by sundry other places. Wherefore this doctrine of his, as it maketh for the Pope, that a whole wretched multitude may be the Church and depende on one man, & cleane ouerthroweth the discipline of the church: so it is so contrary to God and all godlinesse, that I wonder anye man shoulde haue the face to auouche it. If M. C. say, that hee meaneth not a profession altogether corrupted, but a good profession in other dueties, though that bee nought, which iustifieth such abuses in assemblies, I maruaile howe he dare pronounce it an apparant sanctification, or an holy profession in other dueties, where there is so corrupt and polluted a profession in publique assemblyes. Doth not the Prophet teach vs,Ezech. 18. 10. That that man can haue no name of a righte­ous, iust, and holy man, which offendeth in any one grose sinne. If he sinne in any one of these thinges (saith the Prophet) though he doe [...]ot all these thinges he is a wicked man, all the righteousnesse which he hath done, shall not be mentioned, but his wickednesse shall be vpon him. Iames. 1. 26. And if it be true that Iames saith, cap. [...]. 26. that not to refraine a mans tongue, is to proue his religion vaine: then to haue a filthie polluted profession in publique assemblies, is to make all other profession filthy and polluted. And so reasoneth the Prophet Haggi,Hag 2. 13. 14. That as any holy meate was made vnholy and vncleane, if a polluted person did but touch it, [Page 9] or the skirt of a mans garment did but touch it, so much more vn­cleane was that people and nation, and all their holy exercises and sacrifices, and all the workes of their handes, becuase they polluted them selues but in one thing, namely, in slacking and fearing to builde the outwarde Temple, which was but a figure of the out­warde Church of god at this day.

But we come to another of Master Cartwrights proofes, which hee giueth thus: They haue the couenaunts of the churches of god, namely the spirit and the worde of god put in their mouthes, therefore they are the Churches of god. We doe not denie but that there are sundry churches of god: but the question is of a corrupt profession by Popish Lawes, and of vnlawfull assemblyes made thereby. But whatsoe­uer corruption there is, (as he granteth diuers) yet they haue the couenant saith he of the spirite, and the worde of god in their mouthes. So without shame he abuseth that place in Isaiah▪ 59 For he leaueth out one part of the coue­nant,Isa. 59. 20. which is, That the Lorde will come vnto Zion and to those that turne from iniquitie in Iacob, and with them will hee make his couenant: wherefore the worde is not the couenant to establish a Church except it reigne and rule in the Church, to subdue it in obedience to the Lorde: for the Lorde ma­keth no couenant, but with those that turne from iniquitie in Iacob.Gen. 17. 1, 2. As againe it is written, Walke before me, and be thou vpright, and I will make my couenant betweene me and thee. As who say, one condition and part of the couenant is our vp­right and good profession.Iere 11. 3, 4. So likewise in Ieremie and Exo­dus, Exod. 19. the promise of obedience in the people, is set downe as one part of the couenant, Obey my voyce, and doe according to all these thinges which I commande you, so shall you be my people and I will be your god: or else cursed be the man that obeyeth not the wordes of this couenant. For on this condition will the Lorde receiue vs,2. Cor. 6. 17, 18 as Paul reasoneth▪ if we come out from among the wicked, Isa. 52. 11. and separate our selues: Ierem. 31. 1. [...] Then will I be a Father vnto you, and ye shall be my sonnes and daughters, saith the Lorde Al­mightie. Thus shoulde Master Cartwright haue conferred [Page 10] place with place, and haue knowen that the worde is no co­uenant, where the practise thereof is reiected and troden vn­der foote: neither can men say they haue the couenant of the spirite, when open and grosse wickednesse so reigneth in them, that there is no power of the spirite to redresse it, but it remaineth incurable.Rom. 8. 14. And so Paul reasoneth, that as many as are led by the spirit of god, they are the sonnes of god▪ but he sheweth that they are in the state of condemnation, and not in Christ Iesus, if they walke after the flesh, and not af­ter the spirite. For there is not the couenant of the spirite, where we are not turned from iniquitie as Isaiah him selfe witnesseth,Zech. 12. 10. and let Zecharie interprete Isaiah, whose sheweth what spirite God will powre vpon his house and people, namely, The spirit of grace and compassion, vnto repentance and mourning for their sinnes. Ezec. 11. 19, 20. Likewise Ezechiel doeth giue the proofe and tryall of that newe spirit and newe heart which God woulde put in his people, namely this, That they should walke in his statutes, and keepe his iudgements, and execute them, and so doing, they shall be his people, and he woulde be their god. Wherefore let not Master Cartwright account so much of the word in their mouthes,Deut. 30. 14. except as it is written in Deut. it be in their mouthes and in their heartes for to doe it. Other­wise Christ wil pronounce of them, that in vaine they wor­ship the Lord,Mat. 15. 8. and so are they false worshippers: for god is neere in their mouthes, and farre from their reignes:Ierem. 1 [...]. 2. They drawe neere vnto god with their mouthes and honour him with their lippes, but their heart is far off from him. Surely such men are not those burning lampes, neither the goldē candlesticks he speaketh of, but rather as those that will seeke me daily, saith the Lord,Isa. 29. 13. euen as a nation that did righteously, Isa. 58. 2. and had not for­saken the statutes of their god: they aske of me ordinances of iu­stice, they will drawe neere vnto me. Isa. 59. 2, 20. Yet in the next chapter the Lord witnesseth, that there was a great separation betwene him and them, so that he was to make a newe couenant with them, and they were to turne from their former iniquities, or else they could not be his people and Church. And therefore when Christ [Page 11] appointeth the Apostles to plant churches throughout the world,Mat. 28. 19, 20▪ he appointeth them not, to talke of and professe the word in their mouthes onely, but he giueth in charge these three things, as being the chiefe marks of a planted Church: namely preaching the word, ministration of the sacramēts, & re­formation of life, which is the chiefest thing of all to set forth his Church & kingdom: for he commādeth to preach and baptize, & because preaching & baptizing is nothing with­out amendmēt of life, he addeth these words, teaching thē to obserue & do all things, whatsoeuer I haue cōmanded you. Therfore as appeareth in the acts of the Apostles,Actes 2. was nei­ther the church nor the couenāts of the Church established among any,Actes 8. but where their good & godly profession was shewed,Actes 19. 18. and the contrary refused. I know M. C. will gain­say that there must needes be hypocrites in euery church, & sometimes also open breach of gods commandements.1. Cor. 5. 11. It is true indeede. But yet if any make an open and grosse breach then Paul hath written vnto vs, that we company not together with such. For if any (saith he) that is called a brother, be a for­nicator, or couetous, or an idolater, or a railor, or a drunkard, or an extortioner &c. with such a one eate not. The aduersaries replie to this, that in deede to eat common bread with such, or to partake with them in the feastes of charitie was for­bidden, which distinction and shift they alleadge out of Caluin. But who dare say that the godly wife may not eate cōmon bread with her excōmunicate husband? or the godly children with their wicked parents? or seruants with their masters? For otherwise al seruice, ministery & communiō in a common wealth should be ouerthrowen. And so as Paul reasoneth the godly shuld not be able to liue in the world. Who also dare say that when the church held their feasts of charitie they might forbid wicked persons to partake with them in the feastes, and yet suffer them to partake in the Lordes-table. Nay they kept their feastes and the Lordes Supper together. And hereupon Paul gaue this distinc­tion, that they should suffer none but bre [...]hrē to ioyne with them in the holy feastes or in the assemblyes which were [Page 12] for ministration of the Lordes Supper: but if we will not eate and drinke with sinners in the worlde we must goe out of the worlde. Wherefore there is an eating with wretches in the worlde, or in worldly meetings and feastings, which is forbidden in the Church meetings. As if a brother being se­parate and fallen away, should in an Inne or vitailing house sit downe at the table to eate, after we and others were set; it were vnlawfull to rise from the table because of him: yea it were both against common charitie and humanitie, and also against the peace & communion of a common wealth. But of this matter it followeth to speake afterwardes.

We haste one to others proofes. An other proofe is, as though it were graunted him, that where a preaching mini­ster is, there is a Church: nay we know that assemblyes of pa­pistes haue preaching ministers, and yet are not the church of God. And though they be Protestants which haue a Preacher ouer them, yet if he for his wickednesse cease to be a brother, and they also for their wickednesse be no bre­thren, the preaching Minister can not cause them to bee a Church of God. This is manifest before, and shall partly also afterwarde be spoken of: wherefore I let it passe. As for that he saith, of some knowledge receiued by a dumbe ministerie, and of faith receiued by some further Ministe­rie, it is much like the same tryfling proofe he vsed before, and is answered alreadie. For we said, that the inward faith will not iustifie the outward Church, when there is a wic­ked profession contrary to the doctrine of faith. Againe a man may beleeue, & be wonne to faith, by meanes of some godly brother, and that before he haue outwardly ioyned him selfe to the Church: so in gods secret election he is of the church: yet because he hath not the outwarde professi­on, can not be sayde to be the outwarde Church. But here Master Cartwright though he dare not iustifie the blind rea­ding Ministers, yet he doeth praise them as doing some good. But of this matter also it followeth afterwarde to in­treate, as whether he that doeth so much hurt and mischiefe [Page 13] can be saide to doe any good at all. Likewise it is a trifling to no purpose, that he sayth, the Church ceaseth not, when a mi­nister faileth or wanteth: for we knowe that euen two or three agreeing together in the trueth, & separate from wic­kednesse, if none other will ioyne with them, euen they are an outwarde and visible Church, and haue this power of Christ,Mat. 18. 18. euen to binde men on earth, and to loose them on earth, that they may be bound or loosed in heauen. For though by persecu­tion they be driuen into corners, yet their good profession is outward and visible in it selfe, and yet hidden from their enemies which are vnworthy to see it, for the church may increase into thousandes and decrease also in this worlde, e­uen to a litle householde,Reuel. 11. 8. and to foure or fiue persons. For Ierusalem fell away, and became as Sodome and Egypt, and the Lorde did blot out the whole name and church of the Iewes, and called his people by another name: as it is writ­ten Isay 65.Isa. 65. 15. Actes 11.Act. 11. 26. But in these latter dayes, it is prophecied that the Church shoulde be small, hidden, and driuen into corners. So that as in Noas time, eight persons onely escaped, euen so when the sonne of man shall come he shall not finde faith on the earth, Reuel. 12. 13, 14. & those dayes before his comming shall be so hard, that scarce any flesh shall be saued. Mat. 24. 22. Indeed one person will not make a church▪ for the Church must needes be a number,Mat. 18. 19, 20. but where two or three are gathered together in the name of Christ, Philem. 2. there is he in the middes of them. Col. 4. 15. And the housholde of Philemon is named a Church. Rom. 16. 5. Likewise the housholde of Olymphis, 1 Cor. 5. 4. of Aquila & Pris­cilla, and others. For if they haue the power which Paul cal­leth the power of our Lorde Iesus Christ, and doe meete together fewe or moe in the Name of Christ, they are sure­ly the Church of Christ. Therefore this doctryne is still a­gaynst Master Cartwright for neyther the word in the prea­chers mouth, nor the Sacraments can make an outwarde Church, except they haue the power of Christ to separate the vnworthye. For Master C. confesseth that the name of a Church shall remayne, though the preacher and his prea­ching doe cease, and is wanting for a tyme. But without [Page 14] this power of binding, that is, of declaring mens wickednes, and forsaking their fellowshippe to leaue them vnto Satan being open and grieuous offendours, there is no name, nor shewe of the church of Christ remaining. If he demaunde proofe hereof, the scriptures are manifest. For God hath gi­uen this power, not onely to the preachers, but to all the saintes of god,Psal. 14▪ 9. 6, 7, 8, 9. as appeareth by that Psalme, namely, By the worde of god in their mouthes, to binde euen the Kings and nobles of the earth, and to execute vpon them his spirituall iudgement, & the text followeth, that this honour shall be to all the Saintes. Wherefore it is not peculiar to some one, or to [...]ome fewe alone,Isa. 54. 7. but it belongeth to all: yea this is the heritage of all the Lordes seruants, as Isaiah testifieth. In deede it is true, that we ought ioyntly to execute this power: but if others will not or bee in bondage that they can not ioyne with vs therein, then they are not the Church, but the bondslaues of men. For this power belongeth to euery one seuerally to forsake wicked fellowship,Ephe. 5. 7. and there is a cōmandement giuen to euery one, to forsake the vnfruitfull workes of darke­nesse, to be no companions with such, to haue no fellowshippe with them, 2. Thes. 3. 6. to withdraw our selues, from euery brother that walketh in­ordinately: yea and to turne away from all, 2. Tim. 3. 5. which hauing a shew of godlinesse doe deny the power thereof. For if we walke in dark­nes, and say we haue fellowship with god, 1. Iohn 1. 6. we lye, (sayth S. Iohn) and doe not truely: But if we walke in the light, we haue fellow­ship one with another, otherwise that fellowship holdeth not. And in Hosea commandement is giuen vnto all,Hose. 2. 2. euen to pleade a­gainst the mother church, if it fal away, that as god doth forsake it so euery one also should stand against it, Actes 2▪ 40. if it become abhominable. And so also all are commanded to saue them selues from a froward generation. But it may be here obiected, howe we answere to the place in Matth. 18 that we must complaine to the Church, and then if the offender heare not the Church, we must take him for a heathen and publican. I grant that if the offence be pri­uate, he must be first priuately dealt with. But this proueth not, that either for priuate or open offences, we must waite [Page 15] on them for redresse, which are enemies of the Church, and which haue no power to binde and lose, as hath the church. Wherefore let not Master Cartwright accompt so much of the assemblyes he speaketh of: for what is a Church with­out this power we spake of? yea what are those assemblies which in steade of it, do holde that Antichristian power of the spirituall courtes, or rather are helde in bondage by it? But Master Cartwright alloweth not onely those assemblies, but also those vile courtes and officers, and Bishoppes set ouer them to be all the Church of God. For he sayeth af­terwarde, namely in the sixt page, that the calling of the dumbe ministers, whichis by them, is a calling of the church and sufficient to make them ministers: yea and he seemeth to allowe also their suspendings of preachers, as if it were done by the Church, so that both for complaint and for re­dresse of defaults, & for establishing and gathering the chur­ches, hee alloweth or tollerateth those officers and courtes to haue the power and authoritie of the church. But God hath appointed no such kinde of complaintes in the Church, neither such kinde of redresse, nor ordering of matters. First, because they redresse and order matters by money, Brybes, Fees, Ciuill penaltyes &c. wherein the Church discipline ought not to meddle. For the wea­pons of our warefare sayeth Paul,2. Cor▪ 10. 4. are not carnall. He mea­neth that the Church maye not deale in matters of refor­mation, as doeth the common wealth and this present worlde. The Church can deale no further then onely by rebuke, warning and exhortation out of gods worde, and by forsaking & casting of fellowship in grosser sinnes: And therefore rightly may the word and his Spirituall graces be called the weapons of our warfare. Also in the church there can bee no recompence made for sinne by money.Num 35. 3 [...]. 32. For the sinner is the murtherer of his owne soule. And therfore the law of god is, that for murther or killing any, there cā be no recōpence made, saue only by the death of the maslayer [Page 16] him selfe, or the high Priest, which figured thus much, that except we see in any transgressour open repentance and faith in the death of Christ, we are to iudge him still dead in his sinne, and that money can not make him to liue, nor redresse his wickednesse. And the officers that take money in such a case,Hose. 4. 8. doe euen eate vp the sinne of the people, as it is written and lift vp their mindes in their iniquitie. Also be­cause the Iudges and officers of the court doe wrest Gods Lawe,Deut. 16. 14. by their Popish cannon Lawe, and respect persons and take rewarde which is forbidden in Deuteronomie (and by their profession they must needes doe so, or else they can not holde their office,) howe shal any make complaint vn­to them for Church matters, which can be counted none of the church. And seeing Christ hath commanded to com­plaine to the Church against the sinner, howe shall Christs ordinance be broken by complaining vnto such wretches. Furthermore seeing the Scripture sheweth that the church hath nothing to doe to iudge those which are without,1. Cor. 5. 12. how shal any complaine of such a number of wicked men, as ne­uer were worthie to be coūted the church. Againe, seeing no godly man may seeke iudgement vnder the vniust,1. Cor. 6. 1. as Paul sheweth, if he haue a matter against a brother, why shoulde we seeke vnto such for iudgement. Further the rebuke and reforming of a brother ought not to be delayed, till the time of keeping their courtes,1. Thes. 5. For we knowe perfectly (saith Paul) that the day of the Lorde shall come as a thiefe in the night: and as he that sinneth ought not to delay his repentance, Deut. 7. 10. and promise safety to him selfe, Amos. 6. 3. least sudden destruction come: so he that seeth his brother sinne▪ ought to hast his repentance and reformation, For thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart, Leuit. 14. 17. (sayeth the Scripture) but thou shalt plainely rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sinne vpon him. 1. Cor 5. And the Corinthians are sharpely re­buked of negligence, because they hasted not to cast out of the Church the incestuous person, and likewise, because they made too long delaye in receiuing him againe being penitent.2. Cor. 7. [...]. Againe because those cannon officers are straun­gers, [Page 17] neither knowen to the Churches, not dwelling among them, no maruaile though Christ say,Iohn. 10. that his sheepe will not followe nor seeke to strangers, but will flee from them. Moreouer, Because they bring the Churches into bondage (as it is written) because they deuoure, 2. Cor. 11. 20. because they take their goods, because they exalt them selues, and as it were smite the people on the face, and cast them them in prison, they do all these things; besides the church gouernment, and therefore ought to be reiected, and in no case to be uffered. Thus it is manifest by the worde of God that such proude prelates, and Antichristian vsurpers, haue no authoritie nor power of the church: neither is their sus­pendings to be counted suspensions by the church, nor their calling of Ministers a calling by the Churche. Nay surely the least in the kingdome of God shalbe able by the worde of God in their mouthes,Mat. 11. 11. to plucke vp and roote out such plantes if none other will ioyne with them. I meane they shall pronounce them by the worde of god to be ab­hominable,Iere 1. 10. & haue no felowship with thē in the church & so to thē they are vtterly plucked out of the Church. For they are kings and priests vnder Christ,Reuel. 1. 6. to execute the lords gouernement against such:1. Pet. 25. and therefore they ought not to loose their right,Exod. 19. which is euen their heritage and glorie, Isa­iah 54. or rather the glorie or kingdome of god, euen the keyes of the kingdome of heauen to binde and loose, Mat. 18. The power of Christ Iesus to deliuer vp the wicked to Satan, 1. Corinth. 5. The scepter of his worde for rebuke, doctrine, exhortation, pro­mising life, denouncing iudgement. For this is a right scep­ter, which subdueth the people vnder vs,Psa. 45. 6. and the nations vnder our feete Psalme 45.Psa. 47. 3.

He alleadgeth another proofe by peraduenture. For he guesseth, that peraduenture we will say, it were better for an assembly to haue no minister at all, then to haue a blinde reading minister. And then he reasoneth thus, that hauing none at all but yesterday they are the church, or may be the church, then hauing a dumbe minister to day, they are still the Church of god, and can not so suddenly be made the sy­nagogue [Page 18] of Satan. This is a slender proofe, and borowed by imagination: for we make not the minister, whether dūbe, or not dumbe to be the essence, substance, or life of the out­ward Church, but the keeping of the couenant by the out­warde discipline and gouernement thereof.Zacha. 11. 10. And the Lorde call [...]th the keeping of the couenant by this discipline, his staffe of beautie, as appeareth in Zecharie, which being broken, he disanulleth his couenant with the people, and so they become the sheepe of slaughter, For he saith, I will not feede you: that that dyeth, let it dye, and that that perisheth, let it perish, and let the remnant eate euery one the flesh of neighbour. Likewise in Iere. & Ezek. as the breaking of the couenant is set downe to be the death,Iere. 11. 3 4. and perishing of the church & people of God:Iere, 31. 32. so the keeping thereof by better discipline and gouernement was the life and renuing of the Church.Ezek. 16. 60. 61. 62. 63. Why then shoulde Master Cartwright reason so fondly?H [...]br▪ 8. 8. as though they that helde the couenant to day, might not breake it to morowe, and as though any grosse wickednesse committed of all, were not the breaking of the couenant by all. Did not the people pleade truely against Reuben and God,Ioshu. 22. 18. that if they rebelled to daye against the Lorde, euen to morrowe the Lorde woulde be wroth with all the Con­gregation of Israel. And they alleadge further, that for A­chans sinne, wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel. Howe suddenly and quickely was this sinne committed?Ioshu. 7. 12. and howe soone was the Lorde prouoked, euen to forsake all the congregation, and to be with them no more, except they destroyed the excommunicate from among them: for so are the wordes of the Lorde him selfe. Nowe what was that sinne, which Israel calleth rebellion in Reuben and God, both against the Lorde, and against the rest of Israel? And what was the sinne of Achan? Surely they thought that the Reubenites and Gadites had broken that comman­dement which the Lorde had giuen them,Deut. 12. 11. 12. 13▪ namely, that they should not offer their burnt offerings in euery place which they liked, but only in the place which the Lorde had cho­sen [Page 19] to put his name there. Now who knoweth not, but that that place of the name of God, figured the visible Church of god, so that this matter toucheth M. C. very neerely. For if it be true, that as all sacrifices then, so all sacraments now, are rebellion against the Lord, being ministred without the visible Church of God, then that sinne which he calleth a fault, shalbe found to be more then a fault, euen rebellion & falling away from the Lord. And this is a sinne of execrati­on, euen abomination in the eies of the Lord, to measure the visible church of god, by a compasse of ground, by a nūber of housholdes, by slint of tythes & tenthes as we see in our parishes. For the place maketh not the church, neither is the church or true religiō to be measured by the place,Iohn. 4. 23. as Christ him selfe teacheth vs, for neither in the mountaine where the father worshipped, neither yet at Ierusale the citie of god, was God any more to be worshipped, but the true worshippers shall worship the father in spirit & truth. By which words Christ meaneth thus much, first, that the spirit & trueth being shewed by the outward good profession, declare the outwarde Church of God, and not the places, neither temples, nor cities, nor pa­rishes. For in whome we see the spirit, that is, the graces of the spitit by their outward good works, and the trueth, that is the lawes and word of Christ which is true, to be kept & obserued, them only we must call the Church of God. And therefore in Isaiah it was shewed before [...] that with those on­ly which turne from iniquitie in Iacob,Isa. 59. 20. will the Lord make his couenant, euen his spirite which is vpon them, and his words which he hath put in their mouth. Secondly by those wordes Christ teacheth, that al the Iewish ceremonies shuld be abolished, because the chiefest, euen Ierusalem and the Temple should be no more. For the temple at Ierusalem & circumcision were the chiefest. How great the citie and the Temple were,1 King. 8. 29. it appeareth by that prayer of Salomon, 1. Kinges 8. 29. And by sundry other places. Deuteronom▪ 12. 11.Dent 12. 11. Ierem. 3. 17.Iere. 3. 17. Ezek. 43. 7.Ezek. 43. 7. &c.

And of circumcision Paul reasoneth with the Galatians, [Page 20] That if they be circumcised, they are bounde to keepe the whole ce­remoniall lawe: for it being one of the chiefest ceremonies,Gala. 5 3. if they still obserued it, they should also obserue all the rest, but if they reiected the chiefest, they should also reiect all the rest. And to that ende Christ reasoneth, that seeing all things are nowe to be verified in spirit and trueth, therefore all ceremoniall and superstitious worship shoulde cease. As also Paul reasoneth,Gala. 5. 18. That if they be led by the spirit, they are not vnder the ceremonies of the lawe. So then it appeareth that ti­things, because they were ceremonies, belong not to the Church. And because such abomination is committed by them, namely, the due planting and gathering of the church is hindred, and the libertie of the Church for remouing euil ministers stopped, they are euen the execrable things which Achan did steale. For if the common wealth (as it ought) had long agoe taken from the ministerie those tenthes, and Popish liuings, then Iericho being once destroyed (I meane the Antichristian churches once put downe) had not so soone bene built againe: but nowe such tythings, benefices, and Bishoprickes remaining, they haue builded by them an other Iericho in steade of the first, in deede somewhat diffe­ring from the first: but as contrary to Gods church and ho­ly citie as was the first: yea and Master Cartwright also wil iustifie that execrable stealth of Achan, and call Iericho, (I meane those woefull assemblies and Parishes) the visible church and citie of God.Ioshua. 6. 26. But cursed be the man before the Lord (saith Ioshua) that riseth vp and buildeth againe this citie Ieri­cho: he shall lay the foundation thereof in his eldest sonne & in his yongest sonne shall he set vp the gates of it. Satan is that enuious and malitious man, which hath builded againe this citie, his eldest sonnes were the first beginners of this lamentable state, whome God did afterwarde scourge, and cal to repen­tance in the time of Queene Marie, and brake their enter­prise: and his youngest sonnes are these latter reformers, whome God also will certainely plague except they repēt. But to come againe to Master Cartwrights proofe, let him [Page 21] not say that we count any assembly, whether they haue a dumbe minister o [...] haue none to be the outwarde Churches of God, except they keepe the couenant by the outwarde discipline and gouernement of the Church. Further Master Cartwright saith that in such assemblyes, the dumbe mini­ster is not chiefe, but Christ, and that wee make nothing of the dumbe minister, and yet will needes haue him to be the head of those Churches. Indeede we make nothing of him concerning any goodnes that is by him, for he helpeth no­thing thereto, but concerning the mischiefe and hurt which he doeth, or the sinne that is by him,Iere. 10. 21. let him not say wee make nothing of it. For if they be beastes (as it is written) so that by their want of vnderstanding and conscience, the flockes of the pastour be scattered and perish, shall we say it is nothing. If they be those foolish shepheardes whome the Lorde saith by Zecha­rie, he will raise vp in iudgement, to sell and to slay the sheepe, Zecha. 11. 15. 16. ibid. 11. 4. 5. &c. to eate the flesh of the fat, and to teare them in pieces, which also shall not looke for them that are lost, nor seeke the tender lambes, nor heale that is hurt, nor feede them, but rather feede them selues vp­on their flesh, shall we make nothing of such ministers? But go to: he sayeth that Christ is the head of those assemblyes, and not the dumbe ministers. That Christ is their head or foū ­dation, he can not prooue, as was shewed before, wherefore for any thing he can prooue, the dumbe ministers in the ab­sence of the Bishops and their officers, are the chiefe and heades ouer them. That they are alwayes chiefe we saide it not, for when the Bishoppes which are greater vsurpers are present, then they are heades, and both the dumbe ministers and hireling preachers, may serue well ynough to bee the tayle. For Satan hath all wayes by such,Reuel. 12. 4. as by the taile of the dragon, drawing the third part of the starres of heauen, and cast them to the earth. What shall we vnderstande by hea­uen, but the shewe of the church, as it were set in heauen, & by the starres, but the children of the church, falling to wic­kednes and loosing their light. Such are the people of those assemblies, whom Satan hath cast vpon the earth as starres [Page 22] [...]out light. He bringeth another proofe by Corah and his company. For they (saith he) were not cast foorth of the lords host by Moses, therefore should not these assemblyes also which haue a dumbe minister thrust vpon them, be re­puted for runnegates from the Lorde, well, let vs see: was not in deede Corah with those that claue to him,Num. 16. put apart from the hoste of the Lord?verse. 24. 25. 26. First, Moses commaunded the congregation (& the Lord so bade him) to depart from the tents of those wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest they perished in their sins: was not this a putting apart, or a casting out? Againe by the word of the Lord in the mouth of Moses, the earth opened her mouth,verse. 31. and swallowed thē vp quicke. For assoone as he had ended his words (saith the text) euen the grounde claue asunder that was vnder them: was not this also a putting apart, or a casting out? The next day also fourteene thousand and seuen hundreth dyed by a plague for cleauing still to Corah by an aftermurmuring: was not this a putting apart? And these iudgements were both an ensample and a figure of the spirituall iudging at this day, both by excommunication, & by rebuke, and de­nouncing iudgement. For otherwise to what purpose is it said in the reuelation, that the witnesses at this day, meaning e­uery faithful preacher,Reue. 11. 4. are as oliue trees, and golden candlesticks standing before the god of the earth: and that fire proceedeth out of their mouthes▪ and deuoureth their enemies: and that they haue power to shut heauen, and power ouer waters to turne them into blood, and to smite the earth with all maner plagues, as often as they will. verse▪ 12. If he say that Corah and his company were not forthwith cast out (though it be euident that forthwith they did cast out themselues) he should know that there must be a time to examine their cause, yet in that short time they had of ex­amining being but a day, for the next day they perished. We read that Dathan & Abiram would not come to be ex­amined, and so of them selues they were put apart. As for Corah and his company two hundreth & fiftie, where as they tooke censers & came before the Lord in the doore of [Page 23] the tabernacle, they did it as vsurpers: and both in the very acte doing were separate by fire to destruction, and before the act, Moses is so farre from ioyning with them, or from allowing or tollerating their act, that he prayeth against it, saying, Lord looke not vnto their offring Likewise that the people ioyned not with them in their censing, it is euident: for euen while they were burning incense, or before, the cō ­mandement was giuen▪ which they obe [...]ed, that they should get them away from about the tabernacle of Corah, Dothā, & Abiram, and touch nothing of theirs. Now if any will take vantage, that yet their cēsers were holy, as the text saith because they offred them before the Lord: & so will impute some holines to the ministery of dumbe ministers, let vs cō ­sider what holines this was▪ First, their action was altogether vnholy, & none might or did ioyne with them therein. And ther [...]fore the censers were consecrate as a signe & remēbrāce saith the text, that no stranger which is not of the seed of A­aron,verse. 39. 40. come nere to offer incense before the Lord, that he be not like Corah & his cōpanie. Wherfore those censers were holy, because they were made a holy signe of iudgement for warning to all posterities not to do the like: wherefore I would say, there were holines in the dumbe ministery, if all the dumbe ministers were hanged vp in the Churches and publike assemblies, for a warning & terrour to the rest, that are readie to enter such a function. Then indeede they were a holy signe & remēbrance of iudgmēt against such wret­ches, but other holines haue they none in thē. Yet M. C. dare say that their ministration of Sacramēts, & reading of prai­ers is holy & sanctified, yea so farre sanctified that we may lawfully receiue the Sacraments of them, & ioyne with thē in praiers▪ Belike because Moses commanded Corah & his cōpany to come with their censers, therfore those also must come with their seruice books. But did Moses cal thē for any other purpose, saue only to destroy thē? Did he meane as M C. doeth, to ioyne with them, to tollerate their ministerie, to excuse their vsurping, to pronoūce a blessing on their mini­stery. For indeed it is blessed if it be as he saith, that we may [Page 24] lawfully receiue the Sacraments of them. Did not Moses say plainely, To morrowe the Lorde will shewe who is his, and who is holy, and who ought to approche neere vnto him? meaning that by his terrible iudgement, he woulde shewe that they were none of his, and that there was no holinesse in their action of comming neere to the Lorde. Surely therefore, this holinesse which M. Cartwright imputeth to the dumbe ministers and their assemblies, is like the holinesse, whereof Corah spake together with his companie, saying, That all the congregation was holy, euerie one of them, and the Lorde was a­mong them.

An other proofe Master Cartwright taketh by the seales of the couenant, that is, the Sacraments. They haue the Sacraments (saith he) as seales of the couenant, therefore they are within the couenant, and so are the Churches of god. Here the question falleth out, whether the sacraments are false sacraments, and counterset seales of the couenant: He saith it is graunted him, that they are true and vncounter­faite sacraments being ministred by sufficient ministers, for (sayeth he) if we condemne the seales set to by dumbe mi­nisters, then we must needes iustifie the Sacraments mini­stred by sufficient ministers: So by his iffs and supposings he will gather against vs what proofes he list. But though they be preaching ministers, yet are they not sufficient mi­nisters, as we shewed before. For if they goe out of the way, as it is written,Mala. 2. 5. 6. 7. 8. and cause many to dash and fall by the lawe, they are not sufficient ministers, but they breake the couenant of Leui, and the Lorde will make them despised and vile before the people, be­cause they keepe not his wayes. If they be neuer so famous in preaching, yet if they be worldly minded men,Phil. [...] ▪ 18. and whose bellies are their gods, and glorie to their shame, they are not suf­ficient ministers▪ But why did M. C. so subtlely set contrary to dumbe ministers, sufficient ministers, & not rather prea­ching ministers. For the question is of false professors, and of a false profession, and therefore also of preachers which hold a false profession, together with their assemblies: now [Page 25] such we say are not sufficient. for they are not such as Paul appointeth in his epistles to Timothie and Titus. So herein we see howe Master Cartwright misseth of his proofe,Titus [...]. 6, 7, 8, 9. and in missing doeth take a further foyle.1. Tim. 3. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. for he reasoneth that if the Sacraments doe prooue a Church, then though they haue not the discipline commanded by Christ, yet they are the Church. But howe doeth this followe? belike he thin­keth that the Sacraments may be seuered from discipline, yea and the Church also, and yet be an outwarde and visi­ble Church of God. Howe true this is, it followeth after­warde to be examined. First let vs stande on his proofe, that he taketh by the iudgement of other Churches in Europe, all which (saith he) giueth the right hande of societie vnto our English assemblyes▪ which proofe he confesseth not to be so strong, yet strong ynough to stay all sudden iudgements, and so long to cause silence til on eyther side the light of the trueth doe breake foorth. I will not heare enter into that question, whether the Churches haue power to sit in mens consciences, and to shut vp mens mouthes from testifying their iudgements and consciences, for in some matters Ma­ster Cartwright doeth giue them that power, namely for their verdite and sentence, which be true Churches of God. What van­tage the Pope and Papistes might take hereby for defence of their churches it may be easily iudged: and what a clog to mens consciences it were to iustifie and ioyne with all assemblies, till all the churches by generall consent did con­demne them, let euery one iudge. But surely Paul witnes­seth,1 Cor. 1. 2. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. that the spirit of God in his children searcheth out all things euen the deepe things of God: yea it iudgeth and knoweth all things that are of God. And againe he saith, that he which is spirituall discerneth all thinges: yet he himselfe is iudged of no man: meaning, that indeede worldly men can not rightly iudge of him. wherefore the godly may freely both iudge and giue their iudgement, euen of all assemblies which they knowe, whether they be the true Churches of God.Phil. 4. 7, 8, 9. And in another place he cōmandeth not onely to minde, iudge & think [Page 26] on all things that are true, and honest and iust, and pure but also to doe them. Wherefore as we ought to loue the godly and their assemblyes,Phil. 1. 9. so our loue (as Paul teacheth vs) ought to abounde more and more in knowledge and in all iudge­ment, that wee may discerne thinges that differ, especially that wee may knowe the house of God from a denne of thieues. But herein Master Cartwright doeth much abuse vs and also all the Churches of Europe. For neither we, doe cast out the churches of two whole. Ilandes as he saith, neither doe they holde them all in For though the fame of the Martyrs of Englande came to their eares, and also their doctrine & profession at that time, as they thēselues wrote it or testified it by mouth, was knowen vnto them, and then in the time of affliction they tooke them for brethren and churches, yet it followeth not, that nowe in our securitie, they heare of our canon lawes and popish gouernment & of our wofull abuses thereby, or if they doe heare, that not­withstanding, they doe hastily iustifie vs. In deede they can not rashly condemne vs, because they knowe not our state: and rather they should take our assemblies to be the chur­ches of God, for the fame they haue sometimes heard of the Martyrs. But that we which throughly knowe them, should not iudge truely and doe accordingly, it is both against reason and duetie.Mat. 15. 13, 14. For as euery pla [...]nt whi [...]h the heauenly Fa­ther hath not planted shall be rooted vp: saith Christ: so in the next verse he sheweth the way to roote them vp: namely that we put away from vs their guiding and gouerning, being blinde guides and leaders of the blinde, and let them alone▪ And so with Ieremie we shall plucke vp and roote out, Ierem. 1. destroy and throw downe euen kingdomes and nations: that is as we saide before, wee shall pronounce their wickednesse, and iudgement a­gainst them, and forsake their fellowshippe, and so leauing them to the iudgements of God, they shall surely be pluc­ked vp and destroyed▪ except they repent. Wherefore let not Master Cartwright thinke much, if God doe set one man,Iere. 1. 17, 18. euen against a whole countrey. For Ieremie in as good [Page 27] times as ours are, was set against the whole lande, against the Kinges of Iudah, and against the princes thereof, a­gainst the priestes thereof, and against the people of the lande And in another place,Iere. 9. 2. he woulde vtterly leaue the peo­ple, and goe from them, and dwell alone in the wildernesse And so well did he like their assemblyes, that he calleth them all adul­terers and an assemblie of rebels. And in another place he is forbidden to haue any fellowshippe with them, Ier. 16. 5, 6, 7, [...] whether pleasant or vnpleasant: so that he might neither mourne with them, nei­ther reioyce, neither eate nor drinke with them. And if it bee said, that Ieremie had a speciall commaundement, which we haue not, we knowe that all the commaundements of God, vpon the like occasions, belong vnto vs. And concer­ning authoritie and power, wee prooued before, that the least in the kingdome of God, hath it equall with Ieremie or any of the Prophetes. Hereby is that also aunswered which Master Cartwright inferreth, that if one man bee founde worthie of excommunication, the smaller part of an assembly is not to proceede against him, if the greater part will not. What doctrine is this? and what one worde of God doth he name for profe of this & diuers other such [...]ike? For though Kings & nations & all the would, wuold take any knowen wretched liuer to be a brother, and com­municate with him, yet neithēr the smaller part of an assem­bly, neyther I alone ought to do it. For there is a flat law set downe by the Lorde:Exod. 23. 2. Thou shalt not followe a multitude to doe euill: neyther agree in a controuersie to decline after many, and ouerthrowe the trueth. But Master Cartwright will saye, that this Lawe was giuen for wittnessing the trueth in publique iudgement, and not that euery one shoulde take vpon him to excommunicate. We knowe that the common wealth of Israel: and their ciuill iudgement did figure out the Lordes Spirituall iudgement in his Church:ephes. 2. 12. and therefore it is sayde of Saint Paul that wee are nowe no more aliauntes from the common wealth of Israel; which wordes doe shewe that their Common [Page 28] wealth did figure out our spirituall fellowshippe. But whe­ther it did or no, the lawe is generally giuen both for ciuill iudgement, and for all dealings in controuersie, that wee ought to giue true iudgement and testimonie, and not to keepe backe iudgement, or peruert the trueth for any mans cause, yet we say not that euery one may excommunicate alone. For we ought to tell the Church, Matth. 18. (saith Christ,) and so we should haue the church to ioyne with vs in that action. And Paul sheweth that his spirit & theirs being met together, 1. Cor. 5. was ioyned as in one for excommunicating the incestuous person. but what if the rest of the church will not ioyne with vs therein? Surely then, as we prooued before, we must set our selues against them all, we must not be afraid of their faces, as the Lorde commandeth,Ierem. 1. 17. lest he destroy vs before them. For they all, that knowing Achans sinne, refuse being war­ned to cut him off,Iosh. 7. are guiltie with him in his sinne, or if they touch or come neere the tents of Corah, Dathan and A­biram, they shall perish with them:Nomb 16. or being in a citie that is fallen away to Idolatrie, if they flee not out of it, or set not them selues against it,Deut. 13. 15. they shall be destroyed with it. All which indgements doe teach the Church at this day, true iudgement: namely, to set it selfe both against small & against great companyes, if they withstande or refuse the true discipline of the church.Iere. 15. 10. For Ieremie saith of him selfe, that he was as a contentious man, and a man that did striue with the whole earth: euery one did curse him, his owne fa­miliars watched for his halting, as he saith in another place, he was in derision daily and euery one mocked him:Ierem. 20. 7, 8, 9, 10. for he called thē al an assembly of rebels, priuate famillar fello­shippe he brake off with them, as was shewed before, and openly he came not amongest them, but only to proclaime their sinnes, and preach vengeance against them. If it bee then asked, whether Ieremie did condemne them al as none of the church and people of God:Ierem. 5. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. let Ieremie him selfe an­swere it, for indeede by their vsuall and common professi­on and trade of life, they shewed not them selues to be the [Page 29] people and Church of god. For as it is written, both the great men and rulers,Ierem. 9. 2, 3. &c. and also the inferiour and poorer people had all together broken the yoke and burst the bandes. In the streetes of Ierusalem, and in the open places there could not a man be fonnde, that did execute iudge­ment and sought the trueth, that the Lord might spare the citie. And he sayeth in another place,Ierem, 6. 28. They are all rebellious traytours, they are brasse and yron, they are all destroyers, they shall call them reprobate siluer, because the Lorde hath reiected them. From the least of them, euen to the greatest of them, euery one is giuen vnto couetousnesse, and from the Prophet euen vnto the Priest, Ierem 23. 14. they all deale falsely. They are all vnto me (saith the Lorde againe) as Sodome, and the inhabitants thereof as the peo­ple of Gomorrah, yet I doe not doubt, but that there was the Church, and children of God amongest them. For Ieremie him selfe and Barucke was with them:Isa [...]9. 14, 15. for Isaiah witnes­seth that when iudgement was turned backewarde, and iustice stoode a farre off, so that all trueth and equitie failed, yet (I say) there were some that refrained from euill, and were made a pray to the rest. Isa. 51. 18. In deede openly there was none to reforme the church: of all his children there was none that tooke her by the hande to bring her into the way. For the Lorde sought for a man among them that shoulde make the hedge,Ezek. 22. 30. and stande in the gappe before him for the land, that he should not destroy it but he found none. Yet there were those that had a marke on their foreheades,Ezek. 9. 4. as mourning and crying for all the abominations that were committed. And if it be asked, whether these were a visible church of God, it is an­swered by Ezekiel in another place, that among the hea­then and in the countreyes where the Lorde did scattere them,Ezek. 11. 16. he was as a litle Sanctuarie vnto them: whereby is meant, that though they wanted the visible signe of the tē ­ple and Sanctuarie at Ierusalem, yet their holy conuersati­on shoulde shewe the Lord to be among them,Ezek. 34. 17. and that the Lorde would iudge betweene sheepe and sheepe, betweene the rammes and the goates. It is manifest that the Synago­gogues [Page 30] of the Iewes in Antiochia and Ephesus were the churches of God: yet when Christ was preached vnto thē, and they withstoode Paul and Barnabas, did Paul or Bar­nabas stay for the consent of the most part to cast them off? Did they not foorthwith separate the disciples,Act. 13 46. 51. and gather the church apart from thē? yea will M C. Act 19. 9. say: for they were worthy to be cast off, seeing they refused Christ. Then be­like it is true, that one man or a fewe persons may cast off whole churches, for some greater sinnes and offences. How then is it true which M. C. saith, that one man being founde & iudged to deserue separation, should not be separate ex­cept the most part do consent? He wil say peraduēture, that he excepteth idolaters & apostates frō the Lord. why then did he giue a generall rule, without naming such exceptiōs? yet Christ for all disobedience in refusing any message of God, doth giue cōmandement,Mat. 10. 14. euen to all and euery one of his messengers, to cast off whole cities and churches,Luk. 9. 5. as be­ing in a worse case then Sodome and Gomorrha. For if they receiue you not, sayeth he, nor heare your wordes, when ye depart out of that house or that citie, shake off the dust of your feete against them. He will answere, that their sinne also of not receiuing the messengers of Christ, was the sinne of A­postacie. And is not this a message from Christ, when one or a fewe persons doe iustly rebuke the congregation for o­uerthrowing the Lordes discipline and treading his scep­ter vnder foote? and is not his scepter cast downe, and his kingdome polluted, when he which is manifestly know­en and prooued to deserue separation, can not be cast out? But againe he will say, that those cities and churches were not cast off, for refusing the Lordes messengers, but for refu­sing such a message as they brought: namely that the Christ and Messiah was nowe come in the flesh. Surely til after the death of Christ, they had no such message. For Christ straightly charged his disciples, that they should tell no man,Mat. 16. 20. that he was Iesus the Christ: meaning that till his death and rising againe, it is not meete that that doctrine [Page 31] shoulde be blased abroade, but it was sufficient for that time, if they generally beleeued in the Messiah, as the Iewes also did, and refused him not when he shoulde be preached more clearely yet long before his death was the commandement giuen, concerning those houses or cities, which shoulde refuse his messengers. yet in deede it is true, that they which refuse his discipline and gouernement, do also refuse Christ him selfe: and so it is the sinne of apo­stacie. For so it is written,Luk. 19. 27. Those mine enemies which woulde not, that I shoulde reigne oner them, bring hither and slay them before me. But hereto they will answere, that yet till iudge­ment was executed by the Lorde him selfe, they were cal­led his Citizens:verse. 14. for so the text sayeth that his Citizens hated him, and sent an ambassage after him, saying, we wil not haue this man to reigne ouer vs. But doe they not knowe, that they are called his Citizens, because they should haue bene so, and were not, but became his enemies. Indeede they were Citizens in name only, but not in deed. So Ierusalem in name was called the citie of God, yet in deede it became that great Citie, as it is written,Reuel. 11. 8. which spi­ritually is called Sodome and Aegypt, where our Lorde also was crucified. The Iewes were planted a noble vine as Ieremie witnesseth:Isa. 5 7. and Isaiah sayeth, that the vineyard of the Lorde of Hostes was the house of Israel, and the men of Iudah (were sometymes) his pleasant plant, but nowe they are turned vnto me sayeth the Lorde into the plantes of a strange vine.Iere. 2. 21. yea that we be not beguiled with the Names of Gods house, Church, and Citie, he him selfe hath giuen it a name, as it is written, the name of that city shalbe from that day,Ezek. 48. 35. The Lord is there. And in this respect also it is called in Ieremie the throne of his glorie. As who say that amōg whōsoeuer we see not the Lord to reigne by his gouernement & discipline,Iere. 14. 21. as it were in the throne of his kingdom, them we shuld [...]dge not to be the city & church of God. And though the church [...]o pray,Ezek. 43. 7. that God would not cast downe the throne of his glory, nor breake the co­nant [Page 32] with them: yet Ieremie bringeth in those wordes as a complaint of the penitent, and not to proue that the wret­ched sorte either helde the couenant, or were the throne of God.Isa 35. 8. Wherefore to conclude this matter, The path and way of the Lord is holy, as the prophet teacheth, & no polluted shal passe by it: there shalbe no lyon, no noysome beast shall ascend by it, neither shall they be founde there. whereby is meant that open and grosse sinners shall not be suffred in the Church. For either they shall be separate by excommunication, or els all the godly shall withdraw them selues from them, and hold them accursed. As it is written, If any man loue not the Lorde Iesus,1. Cor. 16. 22. let him be had in execration, yea excommuni­cate to death. And surely they loue not the Lorde, but are his enemies,Luke 19. 2 7. as was shewed before, which refuse his gouern­ment, that he can not reigne ouer them. And againe it is written,1 Ioh. 5. 3. This is the loue of God, 1. Iohn. 2. 4. 5. that we keepe his commandemēts, and he that sayeth I knowe god, or I loue god, and keepe not his commaudements, is a lyar, and the trueth is not in him. Not that we can keepe his commandements without all breach or offence. for wee are not Donatistes as the aduersaries slā ­der vs: that we should say, we may be without sinne, or that the church may be without publike offences, or if there fall out some sort of grosser sinnes, that therefore it should cease to be the church of God. we teach no such doctrine, but if in any Church such grosse sinnes bee incurable, and the Church hath not power to redresse them, or rebelliously refuseth to redresse them, then it ceaseth to be the Church of God, and so remaineth till it repent, & take better order.

And here cōmeth in that question to be decided, whether without the discipline cōmanded of Christ, any assembly or church may be called the church of Christ, M. C. saith, that for want of this discipline, we giue al the english assem­blies, the blacke stone of condemnation. Howe truely he writeth this of vs, his conscience is witnes▪ for we neuer said that all the English assemblyes doe want discipline. Thogh this matter be sufficiently debated before, yet let vs weigh [Page 33] Master Cartwrights answere. H sayeth that faith in Christ is the essence, being, or life of the church: as for discipline it is but accidental, and therefore the Church of God may haue her being and life, and be named the church of God, with­out discipline. what worde of God doeth he bring for all this? we knowe in deede that Christ is the life and essence of the Church. For except as braunches we abide in him,Iohn 15. 6. which is the true vine, we can bring foorth no fruite, we are cast foorth as branches, and are to be consumed with fire. Christ is the resurrection and the life. He is the way, the trueth, and the life. So it is true,Iohn 11. 25. that Christ is the life of the church,Iohn 14. 6. as for faith it is but the hand, whereby we take hold of this life: As it is written, he that beleeueth in the sonne, hath euerlasting life, and he addeth vpon it, as a tryall of faith,Iohn 3. 36. euen our obedience to the sonne, and saith, he that o­beyeth not the sonne, shall not see life, but the wrath of god abideth on him. Nowe it was prooued before, that they which are guilty of such horrible abuses, & so grossely of­fende by their corrupt and false profession, haue not this faith, neither do holde Christ the foundation. But see, how fondly & blasphemously Master Cartwright distinguiseth: He will haue a dead Christ, or an Idol christ to be the life of the church. For he will ioyne the church to Christ, with­out the discipline and gouernement of Christ. He putteth asunder the church and the discipline of Christ, and so must [...]eedes sunder Christ from his owne discipline or gouerne­ment Nowe Paul calleth this discipline,1. Cor. 5. 4. the power of our Lorde Iesus christ. So if wee seuer christ and his power, what is he but a dead christ? Also by his discipline, and go­uernement he hath ouer vs, he is our king: as againe it is written,Hebr. 1. 8. the scepter of thy kingdome is a scepter of righte­ousnesse.Psal. 45. 6. 7. So if we seuer christ, and his discipline, rule, and gouernement what is he but an Idol christ? If Master Cart­wright say, that by the scepter there is meant nothing else but the power of the worde of God, I graunt it: as Paul saith I will knowe not the speach or wordes of these men,1. Cor. 4. 18. 19. [Page 34] but the power: For the kingdome of God is not in worde, but in power saith he, and in the psalme, The Lorde shall sende the rodde of this power out of Zion. And the weapons of our warre­fare are mighty through God, as againe he writeth. So then if the power of the word to bynde & lose, to remit or refaine mens sinnes, to promise lyfe, and to rebuke and giue ouer to execration be taken from Christ or the church of Christ, what remaineth but an Idol or counterfet christ, an Idol or counterfet church? Thus while M C. wil haue faith in christ to be the life of the church without discipline, he doth leaue christ himselfe without life, & as one that is dead, or turned into an Idol▪ yet further he proceedeth in his absurdities & blasphemies, & saith, that fayth only is the essence, being, or life of the church, and that besides faith, nothing is necessary to the ve­ry essence and being of the church. Thus be like children which yet through want of discretion, can not haue faith, shall be without the essence & life of the church. How corrupt do­ctrine this is, I neede not heere stand on it. If he say that by the faith of the parēts they haue life & essēce in the church, the scripture is against him.Gene. 17. 7. For by the promise & the co­uenant made to the righteous & to their seed are their chil­drē reckoned in the church & not by their faith. Therefore the faythful are called by Paul the children of promise. Gal. 4. 18. For we are (sayth he) after the maner of Isaac children of the promise, and againe to the Romans, the children of the promise are counted for the true seede of Abraham. Rom. 9. 8. But that by any mans faith his children or others, should haue life & essence in the church, is the same false doctrine we refuted before. For the iust shall liue by his fayth saith Habbakk If then a mā shall liue by his owne faith,Hab. 2. 4. he shall not liue by the faith of another. And by baptising into the fayth and profession of any, we must vnderstande, that we are baptized to holde the same fayth and profession, when wee come to discretion, and not to haue our lyfe and saluation by an other mans fayth, when as yet we haue not the same fayth our selues. And if wee shall liue by faith,Rom. 3. 22. then fayth is the meanes to come by that [Page 35] lyfe, and is not the life it selfe. Wherefore Christ is the life and essence of the Church, and not faith. Nowe Christ is made as no christ vnto vs, except we holde him, and ioyne with him as our annointed King, priest and Prophet. For so the word (Christ) doth signifie. And here I demande of M. C. whether the Kingdome, Priesthood, & Prophecie of Christ be of the essence and life of the Church. I am sure he dare not say nay to this: and why then will he haue the Lordes discipline or gouernement, to be but an accident or hangby to the church For by Christ as paul sheweth, (that is by the gra­ces of Christs kingdom, priesthood [...] prophecie) all his body, Eph. 4. 16. (that is all his Church) are coupled & knit together by euery ioynt, and so receyueth increase and edyfiyng in God. So take away the kingdom and gouernement of Christ, and there can be no ioyning, nor coupling together of the church, no offices nor callings in the church, yea no face, or shewe, or rather no part, signe or token of the church. For these graces do we re­ceiue of Christs kingdome or from his imperiall Maiestie. And therefore it is writtē, that when he ascended vp on hie, (as our triumphant King and Gouernour) he led captiuitie captiue,Eph. 4. 8. and gaue giftes vnto men: and againe, he ascended far aboue all heauēs,Iere. 14. 21. that he might fill all things.Ezek. 43. And wher­fore is the church and people of God in so many places,Mat. 13. 7. &c. cal­led the throne of God and the kingdome of God, but only to shewe that without the discipline and gouernement of Christ therein, it loseth euē her essēce, life & being in christ. And this M C. is forced to cōfesse, For he saith that the mi­nistery of the word is a part of this discipline, & the obe­dience of the people is another: & so reasoneth, that, take a­way all discipline & euery part thereof, & there remaineth no church of christ. Thus the truth hath made him to yeeld in battell, and turned him backewarde, and yet he will resist as it were going backward. For how backewardly doeth he deale in this matter? to say that discipline is not pertaining to the essence of the church, & now for wāt of discipline, to take away the essence and name of the Church. Againe to say, without discipline there may be a church, and nowe [Page 34] to say that without discipline, there can be no church. So ra­ther then he will be without an enemie, he will fight with a shadowe. For nowe full wisely he doeth cut discipline in­to partes: namely the ouersight, rule, and gouernement of such as haue charge in the church, and the obedience of the people thereto: which two partes indeede doe conteine, all the other partes, and therefore very vainely he speaketh of other partes of discipline, as if they might be separate and secluded from these. For he can shewe none in the church, but either gouernours, or vnder gouernement: neither can he shewe any duetie in the church, but onely the dueties of gouernement or of submission and obedience: neither any worke, matter, businesse, or ministerie in the church, but ei­ther of charge and ouersight, or vnder charge or ouersight. Wherefore take away both gouernement and ouersight, & also obedience and submission, and there can be no other part of discipline remaining. For the dueties of teaching, exhorting, improouing, rebuking &c. also all dueties of ex­amining and deciding controuersies, of reforming abuses, of relieuing and maintaining the afflicted and poore, of se­parating the vnworthy &c. are contained vnder that parte of gouerning. Also all dueties of beleefe and learning the trueth, of reuerence, honour, meekenesse and all kinde of seruice and vpright behauiour &c. are contained vnder that part of obedience and submission. Thus it is manifest, that through want of discipline, there is no naturall con­iunction of the partes and members of the church together, so that both the head and vitall partes are wanting, and all the other partes are wholy and throughly either displaced and peruerted, or vtterly lost and perished. But why doeth he not shewe what part of discipline may be wanting, yea and of those two partes, which he sayeth can not be wan­ting▪ yet what defect there may be. Indeede it is comman­ded to forgiue a brother, Luke 17. 4. if he sinne seuen times in a day, and se­uen times in a day turne againe to vs, saying, it repenteth me. yea we must forgiue, Matth. 18 22. though it were vnto seuentie times, seuen tymes. [Page 34] But yet Christ giueth no power to forgiue, if a brother re­maine wilfull in his sinne, yea if it be but a priuate sinne, I am to proceede against him, and am not to cease, till either I haue brought him to repentance, or haue broken off all fel­lowshippe with him, as with a brother. But we must take heed, that they be brethren, and not dogs and scorners whō we rebuke and labour to redresse.Matth. 18. 15. For if thy brother trespasse against thee, saith Christ &c. then he sheweth howe to deale and complaine for reformation of a brother.Prou. 9. 7, 8. But concer­ning scorners it is written, He that reprooueth a scorner, pur­chaseth to him selfe shame: and he that rebuketh the wicked, get­teth him selfe a blot: againe, Rebuke not a scorner least he hate thee, but rebuke a wise man and he will loue thee. But to be short: All the discipline of the church consisteth herein, first that the church be gathered of the worthie:Matth. 10. 11. as it is written En­quire who is worthie: Matth. 7. 6. [...] and againe, Giue ye not that which is ho­ly to dogges, neither cast ye your pearles before swine. And in Ie­remie If thou take away the precious from the vile, Iere. 15. 19, then shalt thou be as my mouth: let them returne vnto thee, but returne not thou vnto them. And in Ezekiel,Ezek. 44. 23. They shall reach my people the difference betweene the holy and prophane, and cause them to dis­cerne betweene the vncleane and the cleane. Mala. 1. 13. And in Malachie the Lorde reiected their offerings, because they offered the scrob­led, and the lame and the sicke and the blinde, which figureth the reiecting of our sacraments, when dogges and swyne do communicate therein.Vers. 7. When Papistes and Atheistes, drun­kardes, Maygamesters, blasphemers, raylers, fighters and such like, are presented as sweete bread at the table of the Lorde. The seconde point of discipline is, that the couenant, promises, and Gospel of Christ, and the sacraments of his kingdome, being established among the worthie, then that they keepe the couenant & sacraments vnpolluted. And for this pur­pose there are appointed these other partes of discipline: namely that the Church doe iudge those which are within: for it hath nothing to doe, 1. Cor. 5. 12. saith Paul, to iudge those that are without. The discipline of the church poceedeth against the bre­thrē, [Page 38] that offend, as was shewed before, & not agaynst scor­ners, or careles worldlings. For the lord doth now take vs of the gentiles for priests & leuites▪ Isa. [...]6. 21. [...]. 44. 7. as it is written, and as wee may not bring into the lords sanctuary strangers, & vncir­camcised in heart to pollute his house, that is wicked wret­ches which haue not the lords couen̄at, may not be receiued into fellowship of the church: so those that are within be­ing fallen to transgression,verse. 24. they shal iudge according to my iudgements saith the Lord, and they shall keepe my lawes and my statutes in all my assemblies▪ For there is a particu­lar iudging & dealing against any in the church, as by par­ticular rebuke, & pronouncing accu [...]sed him that grossely offendeth, & there is a general iudging of any without the church.1. Co [...]. 6. For it is written, that we shal iudge the angels, And euery nation that shall rise vp in iudgement against the church,I [...]a. [...]4. 17. shal it condemne, this iudging is no part of the par­ticular iudging we speak of. And here come in, other parts of discipline to be spoken of: namely for priuate rebuke of the brethren that priuately offend, for open rebuke of open sinnes, & for casting off & forsaking felowship & brother­hood with grosse & open offenders. These partes of disci­pline, although they are prooued & made manifest before, yet because M C. saith that some part of discipline may bee wanting, let vs see which of them may be wanting and the church notwithstanding haue the essence and name of the church.Luke. 17. 4. First Christ hath gieun power to euery christian to re­teyne the sinnes of euery brother whom he knoweth to trespasse a­gainst him, Mat. 18. & not to forgiue hym, except he see him repē: So that if any person want this power, he is not to be counted a christian. And this power reacheth so far, not only for open but euen for priuate offences, to iudge & take any man for a heathen & a publican, if he wil not be reformed. Now this liberty & power, euery christian must hold, or els he is the seruāt of mē,1. Cor. 7. 23. & not of christ. If then a particular christian cannot want it, how shal the whole church be without it, & yet be named the church of christ▪ Reue. 1. 6. Euery particular christiā [Page 39] is a king & a priest vnto god, a king because he holdeth the scepter of gods word, to iudge the offēders, a priest because in euery place he offreth incense and a pure offring to the1. Pet 2. 5. ex [...]dus. 19 [...] 6. name of the Lord as it is Malachy. So thē he is vtterly with­out the kingdō & priesthod of christ,Re [...]e 2. 26. if that liberty be deni­ed him,Mat. 1. 11. I mean of iudging & rebuking the particular offen­ders, & forsaking their fellowship if they wil not be refor­med. Howe much more shall the Church be without this kingdō, & priesthod of christ▪ & so without christ hymself, if it want this libertie & power.ephe. [...]. 7. Likewise as we shewed be­fore euery christian hath power seuerally to forsake wicked fellowship,2. Ties. 3. 6. & not to cōpany together with wicked brethrē.2. Tim. 3. 5. And as by this liberty & power,1. Iohn. 1. 6. 7. they vphold their kingdō in Christ,H [...]e. 2. 2. so without it,Act. 2. 40. both they and the whole church do lose their interest in the priesthood & kingdom of Christ,1. Cor. 5. 11. and so are none of his church. For they haue not the keyes of the kingdom of heauē to bind & lose, to reteine or remit mens sinnes, and therefore what right can they haue in the kingdom of christ.Iohn. 2. [...] If they cannot openly & particularly re­buke, how shall they openly & particularly binde?Ma [...] 16. 1 [...]. and if they cānot openly & particularly cast out or excōmunicate the grosser offender, how shal they bind? For being still re­teined as brethrē in the church, how shall they pronounce them to be boūd in heauē? How shall they shut the gates of heauen against those, whom still they keepe in the bosome of the church? If M. C. say that a general rebuke, & iudging of the wicked is a binding, let him knowe that the Church hath more liberty & right, particularly to iudge those which are within, then generally to iudge those that are without. And safely, if it haue not power to iudge those which are within, it hath no power of iudging at all. So that it is ma­nifest, that no part of church discipline can be wanting, but the church doth straightway go to mine thereby. For a cō ­fused gathering of al together, was proued to be no church of God▪ Likewise if the couenant of the church, & the sa­craments thereof, be broken and disanulled, Master C. graun­teth that there is no church: and nowe it is shewed that [Page 37] without that power of rebuking and iudging those which are within, and of excomunicating those that deserue it, there can be no church of God. As for that his fonde an­swere, that for some default in preaching, and some default in obedience, the discipline of the church may fayle and yet be the church, let him knowe that though some preacher or other person offende, yet doeth not therefore the discipline of the church fayle or want, except the church be negligent, or wilfully refuse to redresse such offences, or is brought into bondage that it can not redresse them. And yet also the question is not of some weakenes and failing in disci­pline but a full want and ouerthrowe either of the whole, or of some parte thereof. Wherefore that proofe they al­leadgeby the Corinthians, that they wanted discipline, & yet were the church of God, is false & very vaine. For they wanted it not, but were negligent therein. They were not vnder the bondage of a popish discipline, & power, which denyed and withhelde the Lordes discipline. Nowe negli­gence was a fault in them, yet not an vtter ouerthrowe and failing of discipline. For being rebuked of Paul, they men­ded this negligence,2. Cor. 7. 11. in so much that their repentance and sorowe for their negligence wrought a great▪ care in them, yea as the text saith, a clearing of themlselues, an indignation, a feare, a great desire, a zeale, a punishing of themselues. Likewise for their abuses in the Sacrament of the Supper, Paul con­demneth euen the Supper,1. Cor. 11. 20. and sayeth, This is not to eate the Lordes Supper. And for abusing that Sacrament, many of them were plagued of God, and dyed. So that although for a tyme, they turned the Sacrament to be a iudgement a­gainst thē, & the discipline of the church did fayle, yet was it not therefore quite ouerthrowē & debarred from thē. Al­so whereas some beleeued not the resurrection frō the dead,1 Cor. 15. 34, 35. it was the ignorance of those which had newely imbraced the Christian profession, and not the ouerthrowe of the church discipline. And here is that answered which M. C. alledgeth, that Paul calleth the churches of God by the ti­tle [Page 41] of the faythfull and Sayntes. For though some fall away vnto wickednesse, yet by the discipline of the Church the rest doe remaine as Saintes. And that tytle of Saintes is a­gaynst Master Cartwright. For if they be Sayntes and ho­ly, howe shall they shewe forth a wicked and vnholy profession, and still be called the Sayntes and Church of God.1. Cor. 1, 2. Though Paul wrote his Epistle to the Church and Sayntes at Corinth, yet doeth he not thereby call the ince­stuous person or other grosse sinners, the members or parts of that Church. But in the fifth Chapter he calleth the ince­stuous person a wicked man and not a Saynt. 1. Cor. 5. 13. As for his tytle of the faythfull, he can not shewe that Paul vseth it, without addition of other wordes, to shewe the good profession of that fayth: as in that place, (To the Sayntes fayeth Paul at E­phesus and to the faithfull▪ Ephes. 1. 1. And though the tytle of the fayth­full shoulde be vsed alone, yet must we vnderstande their fayth shewed by an outwarde good profession. Here also may that place be aunswered which they alleadge out of Paul,1. Cor. 11. 28. Let a man examine himselfe: and againe to the Romans, Let vs not therefore iudge one another any more▪ Rom. 14 13. but they abuse these places,L [...]ke 6. 43. as if Paul meant, that we were not to iudge men by their fruites, Mat. 12. 33. or the Church had not power to iudge those that sinne in the Church: Mat. 7. 16. for these thinges wee haue prooued before, but by iudging in that place, wee must vnderstande a rash iudging or condemning of any, for those deedes or workes they doe, whereof they can giue a good and probable rea­son Likewise whereas Christ sayeth, Iudge not that ye be not iudged, Mat. 7. 1. he meaneth that wee must iudge or condemne no brethren as reprobates, or rashly condemne that in them, which is no fault at all, or iudge euery man to be worse then our selues, but rather we must iudge our selues to bee the chiefe sinners of all,1. Tim. 1. 15. and yet also keepe the Lordes discipline, of iudging and rebuking the wicked, 1. Tim. 6. 14. without spot and vnblame­able. Likewise to examine our selues, that is our owne heartes and consciences, belongeth to our selues: but wee are not thereby forbidden to examine the outwarde abuses and [Page 42] faultes of others.Heb. 10. 14. For it is written, that we are to consider one another. Rom. 16. [...]7. Also to marke others diligently, to note others, that wee looke not euery man on his owne thinges, 2. Thes. 3. 14. but euery man also on the things of other men. Phil. 2. 4. Here also is that question answered of the Dutch Churches in hygh Germany, which holde the errour of transubstantiation▪ For indeede I iudge it to be an error, and not an heresie, except they obstinately pursue it with other grosse absurdities, as doe some heretikes, or with sworde and bloodshed as doe the Papistes, and then without question they are not the Church of Christ, but re­maine in the state of condemnation, tyll they repent. As for those of our profession, which are withhelde from the vse of the Lordes Supper, that question followeth afterwarde to be answered, and doeth nothing at all make against vs. Likewyse that matter of neglecting circumcision and the Passeouer the space of fourtie yeeres he shamefully abu­seth. For there was no negligence but a necessitie and com­mandement of omitting. For that seruice of the passeouer was not to be kept after their comming out of Egypt, saue at some special charge from the Lord as Nom 9. 2. till they came into the land of Canaan:Exod. 12. 25. as appeareth in Exo 12. 25. and other places. Exod. 13. 5. And it figured also their hasting both out of Aegypt and thorowe the wildernesse:Nom. 9. 13. and therefore were they not to keepe it ordinarily euery yeere, till they came to the lande of their rest. And for this cause also was cir­cumcision omited. For being circūcised, they were fore cer­taine dayes: by reason whereof, if they had bene circumci­sed, they could not haue iourneyed after the cloud & taber­nacle. So a necessitie was laid vpon thē.Nom. 9. 21. For they were to iour­ney with the cloud and tabernacle as in Nombers, Whether the cloude vpon the tabernacle was taken vp by day or by night. All their iourn [...]ing was by the commandement of the Lorde.

Now let vs come to other of his profes. A city saith he, may be a citie, though it haue not the walles of a citie. And so he reasoneth that Ierusalem, was the Citie of the great King, before Nehe [...]h had builded the walles, whereupon [Page 43] he concludeth that a Church may be the church of God, though it want discipline. Howe greatly here againe doeth M C. deceiue him selfe and others. He knoweth that the Temple did figure out and signifie the church of God, as well as the citie Ierusalem. Nowe as the Temple was noe Temple of God, but a ruinous heape, without the walles of the temple, and the foundation of the walles: so the citie Ierusalem,Neh. 2. [...]. was said to lye waste as no citie of God, till the walles were builded and the gates reared vp: If he require proofe of both these,Psal. 118. 22. we shewe him the Scripture. For in the Psalme, in Isaiah,Mat. 21 42 and in Matthewe, Christ is set downe to be the sanctu­arie and head corner stone in the building. Isa. 8. 14. And in the Reuela­tion, the twelue Apostles are called the twelue foundations of the wall of the holy citie, Reue. 21. 1 [...] ▪ verse. 12. and the gates the twelue trybes of Israel, meaning all the nomber of Gods elect. Nowe therefore let him iudge, that seeing the Apostles, and all the Saintes of God, are builded in the walles of this citie, howe it can bee the citie of God without the walles. Yea he neither doeth, nor can bring any worde of God, that the walles shoulde signifie discipline onely, and not rather the gathering and building of all the saints of god, into one spirituall house & city of god. And therefore is there no mention made of any temple or other houses within the city. yea the text saith, that there was none such, but the Lorde God Almightie and the Lambe are the Temple thereof. Reue. 21. [...]. And in the 121. psalme that hie cōmendation of the building of Ierusalē,Psal. 121. 3. is expounded in the 87. psalme, wherein it consisted, namely in the building of the walles & gates & therfore he praiseth it, saying, God laid his foundations among the holy moūtaines, Psal. 87. 1. 2. 3. the lord loueth the gates of Zion more then all the habitations of Iacob: glorious things are spoken of thee O citie of God. Psal. 48. 12. 13. And in the fourtie and eyght Psalme, Compasse about Z [...]on, and goe rounde about it, and tell the towres thereof: marke well the wall thereof. Be­holde her towers, Nehem. 1. 3. that ye may tell your posteritie. And in Ne­hemiah, the people are sayde to bee in great affliction, and in reproch, because the wal of Ierusalem was broken downe [Page 44] and the gates thereof were burnt with fire. Wherefore the city Ierusalem, was a resemblance and figure of the spiritu­all Ierusalem and Church of God, onely by the walles and gates of the citie & there execution of Iudgement in the gates thereof. For in these 3. things is described the ioy of Dauid in that Psalme: [...]. 1 [...]2. 1, 2, 5. namely That the people should go into the house of the Lorde, that their feete shoulde stande in the gates of Ierusa­lem, and that there were thrones set for iudgement. Nay sayeth Master Cartwright, the houses & fayre buildings did figure the Church of God, and the walles did figure discipline on­ly. This is his owne dreame, euen an imagination of his owne head. For not the houses of the city did figure the spirituall house of God or his citye, but the Temple. Ney­ther was the city without the walles any figure, but onely by the walles. And therefore doth Nehemiah say in the se­conde Chapter, [...]. 2. 5. That he woulde builde the Citie, because hee meant to builde the walles of the Citie. But let Master Cart­wright remember himselfe, and shewe any place in the worlde, that is called a city, and yet hath not the walles of a City. Or an orcharde, garden, or close so called, without a hedge, a wall, or some safe inclosing of fensing. Are a clump of fruite trees called an orcharde, yf they stande open in the fielde without any fence? or is a fayre piece of grasse grounde named a close, if it be not enclosed. So by his owne vayne reason he ouerthroweth him selfe. And wher­as he sayeth that after their returne from Babylon the Citie is called the Citie of the great king, euen before the walles were builded: what proofe bringeth he for that▪ It is called a city indeede by Nehemiah,Nehem. 2. 3. but a destroyed and waste Citie: hee meaneth that it had bene a Citie, but nowe is destroyed and waste,verse 5. and he saith he would builde the citie, (not that it was nowe a citie, for then it had bene buylded to his hande) but the vse of speach is, that where a city hath bene, to call the place and the ruinous heape of stones by the name of the Citie▪ And so in Ezra, before their returne from Babylon, The Heathen King Cyrus calleth the place of Ierusalem by the [Page 45] of Ierusalem, yet was neither the people of God there, nor the Temple of God. Yea Zion was plowed like a fielde, and Ie­rusalem was an heape, Ezra 1. 3. and the mountaine of the house, was as the high places of the forest. Micah 3. 12. And being in that case it figured ra­ther the desolation of the spirituall Ierusalem,Ierem. 26. 18. which in the Reuelation is called Sodome and Aegypt: and howe then could it be the City of God,Reuel. 11. 8. saue onely in Name, for that it had bene so. Likewyse his descantyng about a vineyarde is a­gainst himselfe. For there can be no yarde or court except it haue the walles or fence of a yarde or count, and so where no yarde is, there may be vynes growing, but there can bee no vineyarde. And so where discipline is wanting, there may be some graces of God appearing, as knowledge, and an outwarde subiection to mens lawes and to Magistrates, yea there may be Gods secrete elect children, and an out­warde false shewe of religion and deuotion: and yet no true shewe nor face of an outwarde and visible Church of God.

Nowe Master Cartwright commeth to that poynt, con­cerning the dumbe minister: of whome as he, so wee also haue spoken before. But here he prooueth the Sacraments, ministred by such, to be Gods Sacraments, and that men may receiue them lawfully. His proofes are like wynde blowen out of a bladder. he myght rather laugh at them him selfe, then offer them to others to take viewe of his folly. His first proofe is, they are ministers, but no lawfull ministers, and they are ministers, though they be Idol my­nisters, therefore he concludeth, that though they be Idoles and vnlawfull ministers, yet wee may heare then [...], and re­ceyue the Sacraments of them. He confesseth them to bee vnlawfull and Idol ministers, and yet their ministration or mynisterie must be good and lawfull: This is as much, as if one shoulde condemne a theefe and iustifie hys theft. For if they be not messengers, nor ministers from Christ, then their message and ministerie is not from Christ, but from the deuill. For these be coniugates, an vnlawfull minister, [Page 46] and his vnlawfull ministerie: a messenger from the diuell▪ and his message from the diuell: a wicked man to be ab­horred and his wickednes to be abhorred. Euen so it must needes followe, that a minister being vnlawfull and of the diuell, his action and deedes of ministration, are vnlawfull and of the deuill.Ier. 23 vers. 16. vers. 21. And so the Lorde reasoneth, that the peo­ple shoulde not heare the prophets that prophecied peace vnto them, for he had not sent, nor commanded them: as who say, because they were vnlawfull messengers, therefore their message also was vnlawfull and to be refused. But Master Cartwright sayeth that though they bee vnlawfull messengers and Ministers, & not of God, yet their message and ministerie is of god. For it is not a false or euil message or ministerie as was that of the false prophetes, but good and necessarie for the Churche. For that that is of Christ sayeth he, is good, and by their ministerie they giue vs that, that is of Christ, hee meaneth the Sacramentes and their reading of Common seruice. And so hee concludeth that they are Ministers of good thinges. Yea and hee addeth a further distinction? that to vs they are ministers of god, but to them selues or in respect of them selues, they are vnlawfull ministers. Surely these are trimme distinc­tions to carrye him blyndefolde, hee can not tell whe­ther. For whether will hee wander in his vanities? or howe many deuelish doctrines will hee heape vp toge­ther? First hee sayeth, they are vnlawfull ministers, and yet ministers of god: then that they are ministers of god, but not lawfull ministers of god: Thirdly that they haue their calling and allowaunce by the Church and yet are thrust vpon the Church: Fourthly that eyther such dumbe ministers, and theyr ministerie is of GOD: or if they bee of the Diuell, yet if the Bishoppe and his officers doe authorize them, then the Churche doeth authorize them, and noe man ought to refuse them: Fiftely that their reading of seruice, is to bee heard, as be­ing a good thing from christ: sixtly that their sacraments [Page 37] are to bee receiued as good thinges from Christe: Where­by also it followeth that Christe doeth sende such dumbe, or blynde reading ministers to take charge of the people: also that for a neede, reading ministers may bee in the Churche in steade of preaching ministers: Fur­ther that the Byshoppes maye thrust vpon the flocke, what Ministers they lyst, and giue them that autho­ritie and calling which God can not giue them: Also that the people shall bee counted Gods people and Churche, though they bee vnder the deuilles messenger, and subiect to his guyding. Howe vngodly and foolishe doctrine is all this? and yet hee heapeth much more vn­to it,Psa. 145. 17 before his letter bee ended. It is written that the Lorde is ryghteous in all his wayes and holy in all his workes. If then anye Minister bee of God howe shall he bee an vnlawfull minister? or if he bee vnlawfull, howe shall he be of God? If he say a thing may be law­full before men, which before GOD is not so, and therefore that men maye take it as lawfull before God: Let hym remember himselfe, that hee speaketh of vn­lawfull ministers euen before men, yea whome hee him­selfe knoweth and calleth vnlawfull.Mat. 15. 13. 14. So that beeyng vn­lawfull ministers both before men, and before God, how shall they be ministers of god? Wherefore they are of the Deuill, and plantes, which the heauenly Father hath not planted, and therefore shall hee rooted vp: and christ sheweth the way to roote them vp: namely that we let them alone blinde guides, leaders of the blinde, and haue nothing to doe with their guyding and ministerie.Luke 5. 33. For christ did gather his disciples aparte from the Pharisees disciples,Mar. 2. 18. so that the Pharisees were to haue no charge,Iohn 3. 25. nor ouersight on christes disciples.Iohn 9. 27, 28. This appeareth in v [...]ry ma­ny places of the Euangelists. Againe he distingui [...]eth that he is a minister, and leaueth out his wordes of lawfull and vnlawfull, of god and not of god: So he woulde fray vs with the bare worde (minister.) If they bee Satans [Page 48] ministers shoulde we receiue them, because they beare the name of ministers: There are prophets also, which come to vs in sheepes clothing, Actes. 8. 21. shoulde we receiue them, being false pro­phets, because they beare the name of prophets?Mat 7. 15. Therefore these are vyle and vngodly mockeries, wherewith Master Cartwright woulde delude vs: [...]ech. 11. 4, 5. verse 15. 16. Further he distinguisheth, that to the dumbe ministers them selues their ministery is a matter of destruction,Nom. 6. 3 9, 4 [...], 49. but to the church, it is, he can not tell what good thing, or gratious benefite from Christ. Wee shewed before, that they doe good to others, like those foolish shepherdes named in Zechary, whom God did raise vp in iudge­ment to sell and to slay the sheepe. Also like Corah and his compa­nie, by whome so many thousandes perished. Or like the priestes of Baal, Ez [...]. 343. or the Shepheardes spoken of in Ezekiel, which did eate the fat, and clothe them selues with the wooll, and slewe them that were fedde but fed not the sheepe: the weake they strengthened not, the sicke they healed not, neither bound vp the broken, nor brought again that which was driuen away, neither sought vp that which was lost: but with crueltie and violence doe they rule them, as these doe by their cannon power and spirituall courtes. For they,vers [...] 2 [...]. the Byshoppes, and their officers are those that thrust with side and with shoulder, and push with their hornes all the weake of the flocke, till they vtterly scatter them abroade. It is a wonder, that any man should speake of any good the blind ministers doe. For through their woefull ministerie, and through that lamentable bondage of popish discipline, we may well say with Ieremie that wickednesse is gone foorth in­to all the lande. Ier. 23. 14, 15. They strengthen also the handes of the wicked, that none can returne from his wickednesse. They are all vnto me saith the Lorde as Sodome, and the inhabitantes thereof as Go­morah But let vs see, what are those things, of Christ, which he saith the dumbe ministers can giue vs. Forsooth the Sa­craments and the reading of common seruice.Nom. 16. Indeede they haue gotten the censers of Corah and his companie, Deut. 12. and they are made priestes of such places and churches, as the Lorde as yet doeth not choose to put his name there. Wherefore as [Page 49] as we shewed before, both their censings and their offrings, that is their prayers and sacraments are reiected of the Lord as execrable things.Ezek. 44. They are those strangers named in E­zekiel and in Nombers, which are not of the Leuites nor of the seede of Aaron, but doe pollute the Lordes house, and can not offer the sweete incense and pure offerings, which Malachie speaketh of.Mal. 1. 11. Their Sacraments are stollen and counterfet badges,Reuel. 13. 16. and howe then shoulde we receiue them as markes of the true church of God? They offer the in­cense of Nadab and Abihu.Leuit. 10. 1. For their stinted forme of ser­uice, deuised by the Byshoppes, and translated from the Massebooke, can neuer be prooued to be incense made by fire from the Altar of the Lorde. But yet Master Cartwright will iustifie their Sacraments and reading of seruice. Let vs therefore see to his proofes.Mat. 23. [...]. One proofe is this, the Scribes and Pharises might be heard preaching true doctrine, ther­fore the dumbe ministers may be heard reading seruice: a goodly proofe, For it was lawfull for the Pharisees to bee preachers of the trueth, and it was a parte of their office and ministerie: but it is not lawfull to be a blinde reading minister, neither is it any parte of the ministerie, to reade ouer such a stinted forme of seruice. Wherefore though I may heare and like of that, which is truely preached, yet doeth it not followe, that I shoulde heare, like of, or ioyne with, that which is vngodly, and blasphemously spoken, vttered or done. Againe he abuseth that place in Matthew, saying, that it was cōmanded by Christ to heare the Scribes. There is no cōmandement giuen to heare, but to do as they knewe the Pharises taught truely. And though by occasion they might heare them teaching trueth, yet were they separate as was shewed before, from being their disciples: they were not vnder their charge and ministerie, as those are nowe vnder the dumbe ministers charge, whome Master Cart­wright doeth iustifie in hearing them, and receiuing the Sa­craments of them. Hee can not shewe that the Pharises were no Leuites nor Priestes, and yet offered the sacrifices [Page 50] as the Priestes And yet these doe minister the Sacrament [...] and will be Priestes ouer the people, beyng neither to bee counted brethren, nor Christyans. And though the Pha­rises or Scribes had so farre vsurped, yet shoulde not the people haue partaken with them in the sacrifices no more ought the people at this day, to partake in the Sacraments with such blinde ministers. But why doth not Master Cart­wright perceiue, that his owne proofe is against him selfe. For if the Scribes and Pharises were to be heard because they preached trueth, then are these dumbe ministers not to bee hearde, because they are no preachers. But this proofe fayling, Master Cartwright prepareth another, namely this. The Scribes and Pharisees, were as vnfit and as vnlawfull ministers, as our reading ministers, and yet might be heard, therefore our reading minysters may bee heard. Howe vnfitte ministers the Pharisees were, it is af­ter examined. We saye not, but that the dumbe ministers may be heard. For if standing on the gallouse to be execu­ted, they say they woulde come downe, I knowe we maye heare them. But the question whether we may be vnder their charge and guiding, and so daily and vsually heare them, as our spirituall guides, pastours, watchmen for our soules, and ministers in the church. This Master Cartwright can not prooue, and therefore his proofe serueth for an­other matter, quite besides the question. Yea if he looke well, this proofe serueth against him. For the disciples of Christ were not to heare the Pharisees, as being their disci­ples and vnder their charge, therefore may not we be vn­der the dumbe ministers charge, to heare them as our tea­chers, and guides in Christ. Another proofe he giueth thus: The dumbe ministers haue a calling by the Church, as the scribes and Pharisees had: therefore wee may law­fully heare them and receiue them as ministers. In this proofe wee haue these matters to consider whether our dumbe ministers haue as good a calling as the scribes and Pharisees had. Whether the bishops and their officers that [Page 51] call ministers are to be counted the Church: whether if the church shoulde appoint and receiue a dumbe minister, he had thereby any whit more authoritie▪ or were any whit the rather to be receiued.Ezra 7. 6, 11. It is certaine, that Ezra was a Scribe, and a priest also of the sonnes of Aaron, Nehem. 8. 1, 2. 4. as wee may reade in the booke of Ezra, and Nehemiah. And in other places other Scribes also were mentioned, Luke 11. 46. which were both writers and preachers of the Lawe and worde of God. Ezra 8. 16. And therefore Christ saith, that they sure in Moses seate. Ierem. 8. 8. That is, as it is in the 8. of Ezra▪ Nom. 3. 6. They were chosen being men of vnderstanding to preache, Exod. 29. and mini­ster to the people as their office required. Mat 32. 35. Yea by the Priestes and Elders & consent of the Congregation were they chosen Nom. 8. 9. But dare Master Cartwright say that our dumbe ministers are thus chosen and called? or dare he say that they sit in Moses seate? If then he bring it for a good profe, That the Scribes & Pharises were to be heard, because they fate in moses seat, then it is also a good or better proofe, That these dumbe ministers doe not sit in moses seat, and therefore are not to be heard and re­ceiued as ministers. In the Church and assemblyes of the Iewes, there could be [...] dumbe ministerie suffered, as an ordinarie office and calling. Deut. 33. 10. For herein consisted their ministerie, To teach Iaacob the iudgements of God and Israel his lawes, to put incense before his face, and the burnt offering vpon the altar And so the dumbe minister can haue no office nor calling in the Church seeing there is no such ministerie, nor parte of mi­nisterie, as to be a reading minister. Furthermore if Master Cartwright saye, that the Bishoppes and their officers are the Church, and that therefore the dumbe ministers are called by the Church: First it is to bee shewed, that Ma­ster Cartwright can not prooue them to bee the Churche, yea it was prooued before, that they are not the Churche of God.

Then also he is against him selfe herein, for he confessed before, That the dumbe ministers are thrust vpon the Churche, and howe then can they bee called by the Churche: Thyrdely, [Page 52] if they were called, and then both the maner of calling bee altogether blasphemous and wicked and the office whereto they are called, is none of the church offices and callings of what weight or authoritie shall their calling be? Shall wee haue strange offices and ministeries in the Church, which God hath not appointed? or shall wee giue any authoritie or reuerence vnto them, because men account of them? shal the blasphemie and wickednesse of a number, though they be named the Church, make me any whit the more, to re­ceiue a dumbe minister, because they doe wickedly and blasphemously call and authorize him. Nay, I ought not to followe a multitude to doe euill. Exod. 23. 2. For it is not as Master Cart­wright would haue it, that the moe which sinne in a matter, the lesse the sinne is: but rather it is the more grieuous, and more to be abhorred. And Paul giueth this libertie to Tim [...] ­thie, That though other men euen the Elders and people shoulde choose any vnmeete minister, 1. Tim. 5. 22. yet hee shoulde not partake with them in their sinne. And if in the acte of chusing, the autho­ritie of the church is not to be regarded, when it shamefully abuseth her authoritie, then also in the wickednesse & sinne that is wrought by the choyse, it is lesse to be regarded. For the reading ministerie is abominable wickednesse, and as it first ouerthrewe the Churches of God,1. Tim. 3. and brought in An­tichrist, so it is still the doore and high way to all ignorance, dissolutenesse, and all wicked practises and customes. Wherefore let Master Cartwright laye away his fonde di­stinction that they are ministers, though they be vnlawfull ministers. For if the reading ministerie be no office nor cal­ling appointed by christ, then is it an office of Antichrist: And why then shoulde he sticke so much on the worde minister, if they be Antichristian and deuelish ministers? And what will he make of the Church? It is indeede the house of the liuing God, the piller and grounde of trueth. But Master Cart­wright will haue it to presume aboue Christ, and so will make it an Antichrist. For if it ordeine strange ministeries and offices in the church, which christ and his Apostles ne­uer [Page 53] coulde doe nor woulde do, doeth it not presume aboue Christ? Christ and his Apostles coulde not thrust,Luke 9 5. no not lawfull ministers vpon any congregation.Mat. 10. 13, 14. Neyther coulde he commande any Congregation or Church to receiue vn­lawfull ministers, and take them for their guydes. Yet by Master Cartwrightes saying, we may receiue such: and if a­ny such be thrust vpon vs, we must account their ministery to be sanctified, for the Churches sake which calleth them▪ Surely if the Church doe vsurpe and chalenge, such a pow­er of ruling, and such a holines in sanctifying, which christ neuer had: it becommeth the church of Antichrist, and quite ouerthroweth the kingdom and priesthood of christ.

But let vs see further what M C. sayeth. He pleadeth for the dumbe ministers, by comparing them still with the Scribes and Pharises, also with the priestes and teachers in the olde lawe, with the chiefe Priestes at Christs comming, and with vnsufficient and vnable Magistrates. He wil haue them to haue as lawfull a calling and ministerie as any of these. The Scribes sayth he, taught vntruely & were decei­ued in the chiefe groūds of religion, & yet were to be heard of the people: therefore our dumbe ministers are as lawful ministers as they. Likewise he saith of the priests & of ma­gistrates that some of the priests were dumbedogs, & some false teachers, and some had not so lawful calling, also that some Magistrates are not lawfull & sufficient Magistrates and yet neither the Scribes nor the priestes nor the magi­strates were to be reiected as no ministers nor Magistrats. What true or false doctrine there is in all this, we will shew by and by. But graunt it true which he sayth of the scribes, Priestes, and Magistrates: namely that they were so euill, as he sayeth, or taught such false doctrine, yet he him selfe hath giuen the answere before, to condemne him selfe: For he sayde that the Scrybes were not to bee heard, but in that they taught trueth: and that our dumbe ministers were to be heard and receiued so farre, as they can giue vs any thing that is of Christ. Nowe it is shewed that a reading or dumb [Page 54] ministerie is not of Christ, therefore we are not to receiue or heare such a ministerie. Lykewise the Scribes when they preached trueth, were to bee heard and receiued, therefore these being no preachers, are not to be heard nor receiued. The same may be sayde of Magistrates, that what duetyes they are able and sufficient to doe, therein we may receiue some good by them, therefore the dumbe ministers hauing no ablenesse nor sufficiencie to that calling, are wholy to be reiected. If he say that the reading of common seruice is some ablenesse and sufficiencie of a minister, hee knoweth well ynough that that is no parte, nor duetie of the mini­sterie. For though it bee written That the Leuites reade in the booke of the Lawe, Nehem. 8. 8. and gaue the sense, and cause the people to vnderstande the reading. Actes 15. 21. And againe in the Actes that Mo­ses was preached being read euery Sabbath: yet wee must not thereby vnderstande a bare reading onely, neither a reading of a stinted forme of seruice. For the order was, as appeareth in Luke and in the Actes chap 13.Luke 4. 17. to reade the Law and word of God and then to preach vpon it. Actes 13. 15. And therefore as appeareth in Nehemiah They read in the Booke of the Lawe, and preached the sense and vnderstanding thereof to the people. And therefore in Timothie,1. Tim. 4. 13. Reading, exhortation, and doctrine are ioyned to­gether. If Master Cartwright doe further alleadge, that the dumbe ministers haue some ablenesse or sufficiencie to mi­nister the Sacramentes, he likewyse knoweth that it is no parte nor duety of the ministerye,Deut. 33. 10. to reade a consecration of the Sacramentes,Eccles. 4. 17. neyther to minister the sacramentes, without preaching,Mat. 28. 19. and much lesse without the power and abilitie to preache.Actes 2. 42. This is manifest in the olde Lawe as in Deuteromie, Ecclesiastes, and in other places. Likewise in Newe Testament, as in Matthewe, Actes and sundry other pla­ces. By all which places it is euident, That though preaching may sometymes be without the present Acte of ministring the Sa­cramentes, yet the Sacraments might neuer be ministred but of preachers and with preaching. But nowe marke howe fonde­ly hee compareth dumbe Ministers to vnable or vnsuffici­ent [Page 55] magystrates, which shoulde rather bee compared to Trayterous and vsurping Rebelles. For as anye vsurper were wholy to bee reiected and withstoode, if hee shoulde get from Her Maiestie her royall dignity and crowne, or laye clayme thereunto: So also are these minysters to bee reiected, which vsurpe a kyngdome and gouernement in the Churche: when as they ought not to bee counted brethren, nor members in the Churche. It agayne Ma­ster Cartwright doe saye, that vsurping Traytours maye geue vs our ryght, and wee are to take it, at theyr handes: Wee aunswere, that this is the questyon, whe­ther the readyng of seruyce in that manner, and theyr mynistring of Sacramentes bee ryght or no. Fyrst wee shewed before, that such Sacramentes so mynistred, and suche a readyng of Seruyce were execrable thynges and also none of our ryght. But if they were our ryght, yet a man is to take his ryght from vsurpyng Tray­toures by force of armes, if hee bee able. Or if hee bee not able, hee shoulde rather loose his righte, then doe suite and homage to a Traytour. In deede the Lordes Sa­cramentes are our ryghte, and thankes bee to our Lorde GOD, wee may haue them by other meanes, then by the Dumbe Mynisters. And though wee coulde not, yet wee shoulde not take our ryghte on a thyefe to iu­styfie his theeuerye.Iohn 10. 1. For these hyrelynges are theeues and robbers comming in by the windowe, as it is written. So wee shoulde first followe the Lawe on them, to thrust them out of the sheepefolde, and then see if wee can get our right For if all such Ministers were excommunicate from among the brethren, wee shoulde knowe the better, both what were our ryght, and howe to come by it. Againe Master C. distinguisheth, that to be able to teache is not of the substance of a minister, but onely of a lawful minister, also that to be able to iudge true iudgemēt is not of the sub­stance of a magistrate, but onely of a lawfull Magistrate [Page 56] Such lyke sopperyes as these not worthie the answering, we haue answered before. But here agayne we answere, that the discipline of the Church and of the common wealth are vnlike in this, that vngodly men, may bee sometymes lawfull officers and magistrates in a common wealth: and therefore Heathen Kynges, yea Idolatrous kinges and prin­ces are lawfull Magistrates at this daye▪ Otherwyse wee shoulde condemne our owne Kinges and Queenes, which heretofore haue bene Popish and Idolatrous, as beeing no lawfull Magistrates: But in the Church of God, this hol­deth not. For if any be a wretched liuer, or an Idolater, hee can neither be minister nor lawfull minister in the church: yea he is no parte, nor member of the Church. Againe we say, that if any be an vnlawfull minister, hee is a Minister quyte out of the Church, as we prooued before, and then what hath the churche to doe with hym? Master Cart­wright will needes haue hym to bee a minister, and we are content: for he shall bee a minister, not for the Churche, nor to haue any medling in the Churche, but for Satan and for the children of Satan. Further wee answere accordyng to hys manner of reasoning that to auoyde Idolatrye, or to be no Idolater is not of the substance of a mynister but of a lawfull mynister: for he may be a minister though he be an Idolatrous minister. But shall wee therefore say that dayly massemongers commyng openly from the masse, to myni­ster the Sacramentes, in the same order that our dumbe mynisters doe, shall be receyued of the brethren, or that the brethen shall receyue the Sacramentes at theyr handes? And yet agayne wee answere that if a man bee not a law­full minister, hee hath no essence nor substance of a my­nister: except we saye hee hath the substance of a deuelish minister. For the lawfulnesse of a minister, and of his ministra­tion, is the essence and substance of a minister, and of his mini­string. Paul saith,Rom. 4 15. that where no lawe is, there is no transgression. He meaneth that because there is a lawe, therefore the breach of that lawe, is the essence and substance of sinne and transgression. [Page 57] The lawe saith he is it that causeth wrath: For it maketh sinne to be sinne. Wherefore as that which is vnlawfull or against the lawe of God, hath the being and essence of sinne: so it must needs folow, that the lawfulnes of anything is the be­ing the essence & substance of the same & therfore also that the lawfulnes of ministers is the essence, & substance of mi­nisters. And so we see how vayne his distinction is, that a mā may haue the substāce of a minister, & yet be no lawful minister. I would not so readily vse such schoole tearmes & words, as is essence, substāce, & being, if I were not forced thereto by his vngodly subtleties. And surely except god in iudgement haue blinded his eyes, he may well perceiue thē, not only to be vngodly, but altogether childish & vnlearned

Nowe we come to answere other matters, which fall out of the former proofes. As that he saith, the Scribes were al­together deceiued in the Messiah. He might rather saye, they were ignorant, in some mysteries of the Messiah, then all together deceiued. And so Paul saith of them, That had they knowen, 1. Cor. 2. 8. they woulde not haue crucified the Lorde of gloríe. And Peter also saith That the people did it of ignorance, Act. 3. 17. as also did their gouernours. Yea the Apostles them selues were a long time ignorant in some mysteries of the Messiah. And Christ testifieth that many Prophetes and righteous men desi­red to see and heare those thinges which the Apostles sawe and heard, Mat. 13. 17. but did not see nor heare them. Luke 10. 24. Yea saith Peter, 1. Pet 1. 12. The An­gels desire to beholde these thing concerning the sussering and glo­rye of Christ: 1. Tim 3. 16. And therefore Paul calleth this a great mysterie, that God sho [...]ld be manifested in the flesh, iustified in the Spirite, seene of Angels, preached vnto the Gentiles, beleeued on in the worlde, and receiued vp in glorie. The Scribes and Pharises knewe that the Messiah shoulde come,Mat. 22. 4 [...]. that he was the holy one & annointed of God, Iohn 4 25. as appeareth by their answere to Christ. The woman of Samaria knewe that hee shoulde be the annointed Prophet, and tell them all things. All the Priestes and Scribes knewe that he was borne King of the Iewes, Mat. 2. 6. that he was the go­uernour and high Shephearde of Israel that shoulde feede the peo­ple. [Page 58] They knewe the prophecies that were of him, that are written in Daniel, Dan. 7. 14. in Micah, Mith. 4. 7. in Isaiah, Isa 7. 14. &c. in Ieremie and the rest. Ioh. 6. 14. 15. Both they and the people coulde readily rehearse such prophecies at their fingers ende, Ioh. 12. 34. as where he shoulde be borne, whose sonne he was, what was his office, what great workes he shoulde doe, what saluation he shoulde worke to his people, what sufferinges he should endure, and what shoulde be his glorie. But Master Cartwright sayeth, They knewe not that Iesus was the sonne of God, neither howe the Godhead and manhoode shoulde bee together as in one. I answere that no more did the Apostles, for a tyme: ney­ther can any man search this mysterie to the deapth. For Thomas and Philippe knewe not, Iohn 14. 5, 8. as we may reade in Iohn, How Christ shoulde ascende into heauen to his father, and come a­gaine, that the Father shoulde be in the sonue and the sonne in the Father. Peter also and the rest,Iohu 16. 17. were ignorant in such my­steries as appeareth in other places.Ioh. 13. 37. Yea they dreamed of a worldly kingdome and a worldly deliuerauce, Luke 24. 21. which shoulde be by Christ, Actes 16. as is manifest in the Actes and in Luke. Wherefore though they beleeued not that that Iesus which was then come in the flesh, was the Sonne of God, yet they beleeued and knewe the prophecies. Namely that he was to be called Immanuel, that is God with vs. Againe they knewe another prophecie of Isaiah, That he shoulde be called by Name, Wonderfull, Isa. 7. [...]4. Counseller, [...]he mightie God &c. that he sho [...]lde sit vpon the throne of Dauid, Isa 9. 6. and vpon his kingdome, and his go­uernement shoulde haue none ende. They knewe of whome that prophecie was giuen in the fourescore and nynthe Psalme,Psal 89. 26. Hee shall crye vnto me Psal. 2. 7. 12., thou art my Father, my God, and the ro [...]ke of my saluation, also I will make him my first borne, higher then the Kinges of the earth. Therefore they coulde not bee ignorant, that the Christ was the Sonne of God. They knewe also that they were to trust in the Sonne, as it is written, Thou art my Sonne, this daye haue I begot­ten thee. K [...]sse the Sonne least he be angrie, and ye perishe in the way, when his wrath shall suddenly burne, Blessed are all that trust in him. So they well knewe that as hys [Page 59] wrath was destructiō, so to trust in him, was blessing and salutiō. sTherefore it is not truely sayd, that they were altoge­ther deceiued in the Messiah. Rather it is true that they were ignorant but in these two poyntes. First,Ioh. 6. 51. howe that particu­lar man being so poore despised Ioh. 10. 3 [...]., and afflicted, shoulde be the Mes­siah, and secondly howe he being man shoulde be God also, and come downe from heauen, to be Manna for the people. So then, so long as they helde the generall fayth and beleefe, con­cerning the Messiah, and were ignorant, whether that particular man was the Messias, I say this ignoraunce for the time was no open ouerthrowe of any grounde of Re­ligion. For the Apostles were commaunded not to preache Christ particularly to bee the Messiah,Mat. 16. 20. till after his re­surrection. And the fayth of the holye Fathers before time suffised to saluation, though particularly they knewe not Christ,Heb. 1 [...]. 13. 39. neither receiued the promises, as sayeth the text, But sawe them a farre off, and beleeued them, and receiued them thankefully. Whereas the wordes are, that they receiued not the promises, and yet receiued them thankefully, it is meant that they receiued not the particular perfourmance of those promises in Christ, but onely the bare promi­ses that were afterwarde to be fulfilled. In this fayth they dyed▪ sayeth the text,verse 3 [...]. and yet no doubte they were saued. Therefore it was not this particular ignorance that con­demned the Pharisees, but their frowarde refusing of a further knowledge. If Ma-ster Cartwright say that they being so frowarde, yet the faithfull did ioyne with them, it is manifest to the contrary.Actes 2. 40. For the holy Ghost commaunded them to saue them selues from that frowarde generation: and so they did. For they ioyned with the faithfull onely, Actes 5. 13. and of the o­ther sorte, sayeth the text, meaning them which beleeued not, durst no man ioyne him selfe to them. And the man whome the Pharisees did cast out, Iohn 9. 35. or excommunicate, chr [...]st tooke him vnto him as his disciple. Whereby it is manifest that Christ both despised and condemned all communion in the Church, with such of them as were persecuters.

[Page 60] Wheseas Master Cartwright sayeth, that the Scribes and Pharises taught iustification by workes, he hath graunted before, that preaching false doctrine, they were not to bee heard: and therefore the dumbe ministers, being no prea­chers at all, are not to bee heard. But if they taught that doctrine, yet they taught but a true doctrine, except they taught it as our Papistes doe at tthis day. For the Scripture sayeth. That the man that shall doe the workes of the lawe, shall liue in them, Gal. 3. 12. or haue life by them.Rom. 10. 5. So then hee that can keepe the Lawe,Ezek. 20. 11. without breach of the lawe,Deut 30. 12. shall be iustified by the Lawe. But Master Cartwright can not prooue, that it was a common doctrine among the Pharisees, that any man coulde keepe the Lawe, without breach thereof. Yea there is proofe to the contrary. For the chiefe Priest did once eue­ry yeere offer a sinne offering, to make an atonement for him selfe, for his house, Leuit. 16. 6, 21. and for all the people. H [...]b. 9. [...]. Likewise were sundry other offeringes and sacrifices obserued, exod. 30. 10. both for the sinnes of the priests, and of the people: which doeth plainely prooue, that by one common doctrine they acknowledged all to bee sinners, and to haue neede of the grace and mercie of God. What then is to be meant By those heauie burdens, Luke 11, 46. which they layde on mens shoulders. Mat. 23. 4. Master Cartwright sayeth, They were the burdens of the morall lawe, that is, the dueties of righteousnesse, which all men perpetually ought to obserue and doe. Surely this burden, both Christ him selfe, and all the Apostles and pro­phets doe lay on vs more straightly then euer did the Pha­risees. For what strayght commaundements doeth Christ geue,Mat. 5▪ [...]9. &c. Against vnaduised anger, Mat. 5. 28. reproching, offences, against lust of the heart, wanton lookes, and all occasions of sinne. Also a­gainst swearing, against reuenge, against hatred, against hypo­crisie, against distrustfulnesse, and a number such like. And he threatneth in the fift of Matthewe, That for breaking the least commandement, Verse 19. a man shall bee thrust out of the kingdome of God. And howe often is the burden of the Lorde, the burden of the Lorde, repeated in the Prophetes? where­fore that burden or yoke is rather meant, which is named [Page 61] in the Actes, That they tempted God to lay a yoke on the disci­ples neckes, Actes 15. 10▪ which neither they, nor their fathers were able to beare. This burden was the ceremonies of the olde Lawe, which were more intollerable to others, then to the Scribes and Pharises. For they being most of them Priestes and Leuites, were not to bring their tythes, first fruites, and of­fringes to Ierusalem, as did others, from all quarters round about. For they dwelt at, or about Ierusalem, especially those whome Christ rebuketh, or else came to Ierusalem to minister in their course. And they tooke tythes and payed none,Leuit. 18. 29. saue onely the tenth parte of the tythes that were brought them. They did very straightly looke to their tenthes, and to all clensings, purifyings, vowes and offrings &c. for they were their liuing and maintenance. Wherefore it being a great trouble and burden to others, to come from all places of the worlde, to Ierusalem euery yeere, as the Lawe then did bynde them, also to pay their vowes and their tenthes and first fruites, and to obserue their purify­ings &c. and no trouble at all to the Scribes which kept at Ierusalem, no maruaile though Christ say they layed heauie burdens vpon other mēs shoulders, but would not touch them, them selues with the leact of their fingers. For there being an hun­dreth occasions in the yeere,Leuit. 15. 12. 13, 14 &c. whereby the people might be­come vncleane,Colos 2. 21. as by touching,Nom. 19. 11, 12, 13. &c. 16. tasting,Leuit. 5. handling,Rom. 9. 32. by the death of any that should dye by them by diseases, by igno­rances and escapes &c. they were to bee cleansed by the sprinckeling water, and to bring their offeringes to Ierusa­lem. But Master Cartwright might haue alleadged a more likely proofe then these, out of the Romanes: namely That Israel sought not righteousnesse by faith, but as it were by the workes of the Lawe: for they haue stumbled at the stumbling stone. For answere hereto, we shewed before, that the Isra­elites made a profession of their faith in the Messiah, euen till the tyme, that he plainely shewed him selfe: and then they reiecting him, and yet beleeuing that he was still to come, their faith be­came as no faith: they beleeued in a Messiah which was to come, [Page 62] but they stumbled at him which was come. And so he was vnto them that stumbling stone, and rocke of offence. And so this worde (as,) or (as it were) is well added of Paul. For hee meaneth, that their doctrine and profession, was not open­ly nor directly to seeke righteousnesse by the bare Lawe, but by their rebellion against the Messiah that was come, they did as much and as they tearme it, indirectly. So as it were they sought righteousnesse by the Lawe, when they kept the ceremonial law, without the Christ that was come, though not simply without the Christ they looked for▪ yea they [...]eleeued that the ceremonies did still offer and repre­sent Christ vnto them, & so made profession that to keepe the ceremonial law, was to keepe their faith and beleefe in Christ But they hauing refused Christ cōe alreadie, and christ hauing abolished that law, they might well be said to seek righteousnes without faith in christ. Thus it is manifest that the doctrine & sacrifices of the Iewes was to haue righteousnes and atone­ment by Christ, whome their sacrifices did signifie: but their deeds and practise in refusing Christ, was as much, as to seeke righteousnesse by the law. Nowe those which refu­sed christ, Actes 5. 13. and beleeued not in him, Actes 2. 40. were vtterly separate as was shewed before from the communion and fellowship of the churche. And therefore this matter is altogeter against him.Luke 18. 9. As for that place of luke, he abuseth it too much: for the parable of a pha­rise, which speaketh of matters, as though they were, when in deede they were not, he alleadgeth for proofe of all the Pharisees doctrine. First, the fault of one Pharise if he had bene faul­tie, can not prooue them all faultie: then also the parable of a fault, doeth shewe it to be no fault committed, but i­magined or supposed, as if it were committed. Thirdlye Christ in that place, mindeth not to rebuke any doctrine of the Scribes and Pharisees, but as the text sayeth, he spake a parable vnto certaine, which trusted in them selues, that they were iust, and despised others. None are named to teeche any such doctrine, but certaine are rebuked for tru­sting in themselues, wherefore the like proofe to this, might [Page 63] I alleadge against him: namely that very many in Eng­land both preachers, and others doe trust in their riches, or power, or wisedome or good workes &c. Therefore the preachers in Englande doe teach men to trust in thēselues. But as this proofe is fonde, so the conclusion that follow­eth is according▪ For he concludeth that the dumbe mini­sterie is as lawful and good, as the ministerie of the Scribes: which taught vntruely, saith he, in the chiefe grounds of re­ligion. Although he cannot proue such vntrue doctrine, yet howe doeth it followe, that their ministerie, which faileth in all poyntes, shoulde bee as good as theirs, which fay­leth but in some poyntes. For the dumbe ministers wee prooued, to haue no parte nor worke in the ministerie, And the Scribes hee confessed before to sit in Moses seate, to teache true doctrine, to haue a calling by the Churche. Agayne they must needes edifie more, which preache much trueth, then they whiche are no preachers at all. But the Scripture is playne, that if anye preache muche trueth, and yet doe preache heresies withall, they are to be auoided: as it is written,Tit. 3. 10. Reiect him that is an heretike,Mat, 18. after once or twise admonition. And though the Churche is to admonishe such, yet if it will not or can not, then a­ny man particularly hath this libertie to admonishe, except for his scornefulnesse and obstinacie he be vnwor­thie. And then we are forbidden to receiue them to house,2 Ioh. 10. or to bid them God speede.Rom. 16▪ 17. And howe then shall we take them for our guydes and pastours in the Church, or say (A­men) to their prayers? And here followeth that vntrueth to be refuted, which he addeth in these wordes, that the true Prophets are neuer founde to haue forbidden the people to come to the sacrifice of the false prophets,Isa. 56. 10. and of the priestes that were dumbe dogges, neither to bring their sa­crifices vnto them. First euen that place of blinde watch­men and dumbe dogs, which hee quoteth amisse, is against him selfe.Hag. 2. 13▪ 14. For there was a Lawe, that the priestes being vn­ [...]tane, they might neither touch nor eat of the holy things: if they [Page 64] did, Leuit. 22. 5, 6. then those thinges were polluted. Nom. 6. Nowe to drinke wine or strong drinke was a pollution both of the Nazarites and Priestes:Leuit. 10. of the Priestes I say,Malal. 1, 7. when they came into the Tabernacle of the congregation to offer sacrifice.Isa 52. 11. Howe then shoulde the people partake in the Sacrifices with Priestes that were common drunkardes.Nom. 19. For the people are commaunded not to touche any vncleane thing: Leuit. 22. and therefore those sacrifices being vncleane, howe shoulde the people haue any thing to doe with them? Nowe suche drunkards were those dumbe dogges which hee nameth, as is there mencioned: they were greedie dogges, which sayde, Come, I will bring wine, vers. 11. 12. and we will fill our selues with strong drinke, and to morowe shall be as this day, and much more abundant. Where­fore being such, howe coulde they put difference, as it is commaunded in Leuiticus, Betweene the holy and the vnholy, and betweene the cleane and the vncleane. Leuit. 10. 10. And howe then shoulde not all their sacrifices be polluted? There be ma­places which shewe, that the priestes polluted them selues, and the holy thinges: as in Ezekiel, Her priestes desile myne holy thinges, ezek. 22. they put no difference betweene the holy and pro­phane, neither discerne betweene the vncleane and the cleane, and in Hagga [...],Hag. 2. 15. that which they offer here is vncleane: Mal. 1. and in Ma­lachie, Ye offer vncteane bread vpon mine altar &c. Also in sundry places, as is quoted before, commaundement is gi­uen not to touch any vncleane thing: Wherefore it is a flat commandement euen to all the people, not to touche those polluted sacrifices of the Priestes, not to communi­cate nor partake with them therein. Therefore in his own place quoted out of Isaiah,Isa. 56. 9. is that terrible iudgement pro­nounced both against priestes and against peeople, though onely the sinne of the priestes or watchemen is named. The wordes are these, All yee beastes of the fielde come to de­uorr, euen all ye beastes of the forest. And then followe these wordes, their watchemen are all blinde &c. as who say, that the people, because they did partake with such watche­men, they shoulde also perish with them▪ If Ma-ster Cart­wright [Page 65] say, the pollutions we speake of, were by Idolatrie: let him knowe that Malachie spake to those, which were no Idolaters, which also had a generall reformation from I­dolatrie: Likewise Haggai prophecied in a time of reformation, and spake to those which were no Idolaters. And Ezekiel in that Chapter, mentioneth no Idolatrie, but rebuketh other wickednesse, as it were seuering it from Idolatrie. For in the next Chapter, he toucheth their sinne of Idolatrie more particularly. And to those that accounted so much of the Temple, and of the sacrifices, as Master Cartwright doeth of his Churches and Sacraments,Isa. 66. 3. Isaiah saith thus, The heauen is my throne saith the Lord, and the earth is my footestoole, and so he proceedeth to rebuke their vaine bragge of the Temple, and then com­meth to their sacrifices, saying, He that killeth a bullocke, is as if he slewe a man, he that sacrificeth a sheepe, as if he cut off a dogges necke: he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swynes blood: he that remembreth incense, as if he blessed an Idol: by which wordes it is plaine that he rebuketh euen those, that detested Idoles, and swynes blood &c. and telleth them, that their sacraments are no sacraments, they are vncleane and polluted, as the most vile filthinesse, which they them­selues abhorred. If he say, that yet to the godly in those dayes, the sacrifices were lawfull and good, I aunswere that the godly had uo medling with such wicked men, nor with their sacrifices. For in the seconde verse after hee speaketh thus to the godly,Verse 5. Heare the worde of the Lorde, all ye that tremble at his worde, your brethren that hated you, and cast you out for my Names sake, sayde, let the Lorde be glorified: but hee shall appeare to your ioye and they shall bee ashamed. So then there was a great separation betweene the righteous and the wicked in those dayes: in so much that the righteous forsooke all fellowshippe in their sacrifices, and the wicked cast them out from among them. If Master Cartwright say that the righteous forsooke not their sacrifices, but were cast out from them,Isa. 59. 15. it is answered in another place That while they refrained from euill, they made them selues a pray to the wic­ked. [Page 66] So then the cause why they were cast out was, because they woulde not partake with the wicked in their wickednesse. If Master Cartwright saye that that was for other wicked­nesse, but not for their refusing to partake in the sacrifi­ces, It is, 1. Sam. 2 17. said in Samuel That for the wickednesse of the priests, men abhorred the sacrifices. If he say againe, that they did e­uill to abhorre thē, he can not prooue it: & it is euident that they were of the better sorte that did so. For in Malache it is written, that they which feared the Lorde, spake euery one to his neighbour, Mal. 3. 16. 17, [...]. cōcerning the abuses and wickednes of those dayes: and the Lord sheweth the badge and marke of all his flocke and people, namely that they should returne & discerne betwene the righteous and the wicked: betweene him that serueth God, and him that ser­ueth him not: As who say, that euery one of the righteous had libertie and were commaunded, to haue no communi­on with the wicked in the Churche: and howe then shoulde they be ioyned with them in the neerest com­munion, [...]. 3 4. namely in the Sacramentes. And in the same Chapter it is prophecied, That the offeringes of Iudah and Ieerusalem shoulde bee acceptable to the Lorde, as in the olde [...]yme, Mal. 1. 10. aud in the yeeres afore, Mal. 2. 8, 9, 10, 13. and that was, when the sonnes of Leui (which figured all the righteous shoulde bring offeringes vnto the Lorde in righteousnesse. For he shew­ed in the Chapters before, that while open and grosse wic­kednesse was incurable among them, both the priestes and Leuites brake the couenant, and also the people, & the offe­rings were no more regarded, neither receiued acceptably at their hands.1. Sam. [...]. As for the sacrisices of Elkanah and his wiues, they were offered by the ministerie of Eli, as appeareth in that place, and not by his wicked sonnes. Nowe Elie was rather negligent, in correcting his sonnes, then a grosse transgressour, and therefore might Elkanah the rather partake in the sacrifices with him. But wee reade in the Psalmes,Psal. 15. 4. That a vyle person is contemned in the eyes of righteous: howe then shall a ryghteous man, receiue the Sacramentes with such, as with brethren in the Churche? [Page 67] Dauid prayeth that hee might not commit wicked workes, with men that worke iniquitie, Psal. 1 41, 4. and that he myght not eate of their delicates: and howe then woulde he eate of their sacrifices, which are the chiefest delicates. If hee saye, that Dauid woulde not eate common bread with such, it is euident that hee daily did so, in the house of Saul. And this mat­ter is before made plaine. And in the Prouerbes it is writ­ten, They that forsake the Lawe prayse the wicked,pro. 28. 4. but they that keepe the Lawe set them selues against them. Howe shall they set them selues against them, when they ioyne with them as brethren in the Sacramentes. Iudah was sayde to defile the holinesse of the Lorde, because some in Iudah did marrye the daughter of a straunge God: yea and this was counted a synne, transgression,Mal. 2. [...]. Ezr. 9. 1. Nehem. 9. and abomination committed by all Israel and Iudah, and Ie­rusalem, though some onley had marryed such women. Wherefore were they all guiltie of transgression, but be­cause they did not, or would not redresse such wickednes. For it had bene the duetie of euery one, as appeareth in Ez­ra and Haggai, to haue offred no oblatiōs, nor to haue partaken with any such in the sacrisices, till such opē wickednes, had bene taken away.Hag. 2. 15. Otherwise Haggai woulde not haue saide, that all the workes of their handes, and that whiche they offered there was vncleane: neither would Ezra haue rent his clothes, nor pluckt off the heare of his head, and of his beard, nor haue saide that they all were before the Lord in their trespasse, and therefore could not stand before the Lord because of it. And surely their sin of marrying strange wiues, did but figure out our sinne of mingling and inter­medling the Churches: For the daughters of Antichrist, I meane those wicked prelates & popish officers are yet mar­ried to our churches: The papists & wicked men are thrust into our churches to receiue the sacraments with vs. Their discipline is the nurture & lady mystres ouer our churches. If M. C. aske what proofe we haue, that their marriage, I meane of the Iewes, was anye figure or Ceremonie, [Page 68] let him reade that of Paul to the Ephesians, where Paul calleth marriage a secrete or mysterie,Eph. 5. 32. and sheweth there, that marriage was a signe or figure of the ioyning together of Christ and his Church:Song. 6 8. Reuel. 21. 9. also in the song of Salomon this is manifest, and in the Reuelation and sundry other places. Dauid sheweth with whome the godly did partake in the sacrifices, when he saith, I haue not haunted with vaine persons, neither kept companie with the dissemblers, I haue hated the assemblie of the euill, and haue not cō ­panied with the wicked, and then followe these wordes, I will wash mine handes in innocencie ô Lord and compasse thine altar.Psal. 26. 4. Which wordes doe teache vs, that when we re­ceiue the sacraments, we can not wash our handes in inno­cencie, except we receiue them apart from the wicked. For the order of the Iewes was to partake in the sacrifices, fami­lie by familie, as we may reade in sundry places. And therefore they might more easily auoyde the companie of the wicked. And the Iewes contended against Peter, [...]. be­cause he went in to men vncircumcised,Act. 1 [...] 3. & had eaten with them, which sheweth howe straite they were, for auoy­ding all company with the wicked. It is lawfull indeede to eate with Publicanes and sinners as Christ also did, but yet to eate the Lordes supper with opon vnrepentant &Marke 2. 15. wret­ched persons is not lawfull. For as I may not offer myne owne oblation,Mat. 5. 23. when I remēber that a brother hath ought against me,Mat. 9. 13. much lesse may I partake in another mans of­fring,Hose 6. 6. when I haue ought against him.Mat. 18. 15. Yea mercie and pi­tie in seeking to reforme him is preferred before sacrifice. So that, except he be obstinate and a scorner, I am gentlie to admonishe him, and if he be yet hardened in his sinne, I am as Iude saith,Iude [...]3. to saue him with feare, pulling him out of the fire▪ what is this feare which shoulde saue him, but to make him afraide, by sharper rebukes, and refusing to partake with him in the Sacraments. For he will be afraide of nothing, so long as I take him for a brother, and ioyne with him in the sacraments. But this is strange that Master [Page 69] Cartwright sayeth, that the true prophetes did not forbidde the people, to communicate with the false prophetes in the sacrifices. For commandement is giuen, Deut▪ 13. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. not onely not to com­municate with false prophets, Deut. 1 [...]. 2. but euen to kill them, Luke 17. 23. and our hands to be first against them. Zechn. 13. 3. yea though they were onr brethren, Gal. 1. 8. or our owue children, or the wife that lyeth in our bosome, or our friende, which is as our owne soule: yet our eyes may not pitie him nor shew mercie vnto him, saith the text. If Master Cart­wright say that this was commaunded for Idolatrous pro­phets, why then did he not make that exception. But wee haue shewed before, that for heresie also, the false prophets are not to be bidden God speede, and are vtterly to be auoyded. yea they are to be put to death as well as the other, Deut. 18. 20. as againe it is written in Deuterononie 18. 20. And it is testified in Nombers, Titus 3. 10. against the people, 2. Iohn 10. [...]. that they shoulde make them fringes, Rom. 16. 1 [...]. that when they looked vpon them, Nom. 15. 39. they might remember all the commaunde­ments of the Lorde and doe them, and that they sought not after their owne heart, and after their owne eyes, after the which they went a whoring▪ which wordes doe teache vs, that all here­tikes and false prophets doe goe a whoring after their owne heartes, and are as euill, Ierem. 23. 16. as Idolaters. Deut. 17. 12. And wherefore is it cō ­manded,Gal. 1 8. that the man which hearkeneth not to the voyce of the high Priest, (which [...]igureth the voyce of Christ in his Churche) shoulde die? which wordes doe shewe, That false prophetes that will not be reformed, are to be [...]ad in execration and auoy­ded of men. And howe then should the people partake with them in the sacrifices. Yea the Iewes had that custome, [...]s it appeareth from their forefathers,Iohn 9. 22, 34, 35. and from the former Prophetes, To excommunicate the fals [...] Pro [...]hets and those that beleeued them, and therefore they did wickedly excommunicate the blinde man, that beleeued in christ. And the custome of puni­shing false prophetes,Iere 29. 26. is alleadged in Ieremie, though wic­kedly and by a false prophet. And whereas it is commaun­ded in Ieremie,Zech. 13. 6. Iere. 23. 16. Ie [...] 27. 9. 14, 15 [...] 16, 17, 18 That the people shoulde not heare the wordes of the false prophetes, is it not also a commandement, that they should not partake with them in the sacrifices? For the sacrifices and [Page 70] sacraments are but a seale to the worde that is preached. So the false prophetes hauing a false worde and a false message, if the people shoulde partake with them in the sacraments, they did thereby seale vnto their false message, as if it were true.

Againe that anye dumbe dogges, which coulde not barke did minister the sacrisices, Master Cartwright can not prooue.Deut. 33. 10. yea before we haue prooued the contrary,Eccle. 4. 17. For the sacrifices were alwayes ministred as is shewed before, Leuit, 1. 4. by Priestes that coulde preache and did preache. Chap. 3. 2. The occasion for which the sacrifice was offered, was shewed before. The sinnes of those that brought the sacrifice, was confessed ouer the head of the Sacrifice &c. All these thinges are manifest in the olde Lawe. Indeede there were dumbe dogges, among the priestes (for there were diuers cities, which belonged to the Priestes onely) yet none snche being able, Chap. 4 4. nor vsing to minister the sa­crifices, Mal. 2. 7, 8. wee speake not here of Idolatrous sacrifices) I saye it is follye to imagine▪ that the people did bring their sacrifices to such. But yet if they did bring, we haue prooued before that they ought not to haue done so.

If Master Cartwright saye that the Churche indeede might refuse the false prophetes and put them from the sacrifices, but not euery particular man in the Churche: I aunswere that the question is not of forbidding and de­barring from the sacrifices, but of withdrawing our selues from wicked companions in the sacrifices. And so it fol­loweth that if the whole Churche ought not to commu­nicate with such in the sacrifices, then no part nor member of the Churche ought to communicate: and if the whole Churche doe sinne and commit wickednesse by commu­nicating with suche: then if any amongest them will re­fuse to communicate, they shall doe well, and shall not sinne thereby. That the whole Churche ought not to com­municate, but to cast out such from amongest them, it is prooued before.Phil. 1. 17, 18. But here is that place of Paul to be an­swered, which the aduersaryes lay against vs: whiche is [Page 71] that some preache Christ of enuie and strife, and some also of good will, and Paul reioyceth that Christ is preached all manner wayes. By which wordes they woulde gather, that we may communicate in the Churche with false tea­chers, false prophetes, heretikes, and vngodly wretches. Howe shamelessely they gather this,Phil. 3. 2▪ euen Paul in the same Epistle answereth them: for he biddeth them beware of dogges, beware of euill workers: beware of the concision. Woulde Paul haue dogges and euill workers to commu­nicate in the Churche? Nay doeth he not call them con­cision from the Church: meaning that if they preached circumcision, they must needes be cut off from the Church, and others also with them. And so their circumcision, shoulde rather be concision, that is a cutting and renting of the Churche in sunder. Paul is so farre from reioysing in such preachers,Verse 18. 19. that in the eighteenth verse he geueth war­ning of them, with weeping teares, and calleth them ene­mies of the crosse of Christ, belligods, proude and worldly men, and appointed to damnation.Gal. 5. 12. And Paul would not onely not suffer the churche to communicate with such, as is largely prooued before, but wisheth they were euen dead and destroyed which so did disquiet the churche. What is then to be meant by Paules ioy, that Christ was preached all manner wayes? Surely this, that so the church and the discipline thereof were kept vpright, we neede not care for the enemies thereof. yea and if in the churche also, the doctrine of hypocrites doe more good; then their secret faultes can doe hurt, we are therein to reioyce. For Paul [...]peaketh of the enuie and contentious minde of such prea­chers, and not of anye grosse wickednesse that brake foorth by them. Further if some be deceiued in doctrine, and bee otherwyse mynded then the trueth is,Phil. 3. 15. God shall reueile the same vnto them sayeth Paul: he meaneth so long as they are weakelings and not obstinate enemies. For igno­norance, so long as it is not a sotted nor wilfull ignorance, [Page 72] nor ioyned with other grosse wickednesse, is to bee borne with. But if any man abuse his ignorance so,M [...]t. 5. 19. that he brea­keth but the least commaundement, and teacheth men so, as Christ hath tolde vs, he shall be called the least in the kingdome▪ of heauen: that is, he shall be cleane cast out of the kingdome or if any man by his ignorance or false doc­trine be contentious, we haue no such custome, saieth Paul, neither the Churches of God. Yea the custome of the Church is▪ 1 Cor. 11. 16. Rom. 16. 17. as it is written againe, To marke those diligentlye, which cause diuision amongest vs, contrary to the trueth we haue learned▪ and to auoyde them. Howe then shoulde Paul reioyce in contentious preaching? Surely as Paul reioyced, so Christ desired to haue contention in the worlde. Conten­tion I say in the worlde,Luke 12 49, 50, 51. Mat. 10. 34. but not in the Church. For I came not sayeth Christ to giue peace on earth, but rather debate. I am come, saith he, to put fire on the earth, and what is my desire if it were alreadie kindled? For from hencefoorth there shall be fiue in one house deuided, three against two, and two against three. The father against the sonne, and the sōne against the father &c. Now there is a lawful ioy in this cōtention, not that mē shuld be so wicked, nether that such contention shoulde be among the true professors, but that the warfare against wickednes is begun, and that the treuth worketh and preuaileth thereby: This was Pauls ioy, and this should be our ioy,1. Cor. 11. 20. if mē in the world fall out, contend, and disagree about the Gospel: for then shall the trueth be sifted and boulted out, and the Church of Christ shalbe builded, and growe the more mightely. But Paul discom­mendeth contention in the Church, and saith, that when they come together into one place, with such dissention a­mong them, this is not to eate the Lordes Supper. And here also is that place answered, that some men did build hay or stubble in the spirituall buylding,1. Cor. 3. 13, 14. 15. & so their worke cānot abyd the fyer of Gods word, but shall burne, yet they shalbe safe thēselues Paul thereby rebuketh their vaine elo­quence [Page 73] & other insirmities in preaching, as being but ha [...]e and stubble that shall burne, but they them selues being pu­rified from such infirmities as it were by fire, shall be safe. yea and though some be false apostles,2. Cor. [...]. [...]. yet if they worke so deceitfully, and so cunningly transforme them selues, that none can prooue them to be obstinate false teachers, nor charge them with open grosse wickednesse, they are to bee suffered as brethren in the churche. But it is be [...]ere suffici­ently prooued that if any be an obstinate heretike, or an o­pen wicked wretch, he is not to be suffered.

Againe the aduersaries doe set the practise of the Apo­stles and brethren against vs,Act. 1. 224. which did communicate, as they say, in the offerings and sacrifices of the wicked Iewes and persecuting priestes.Mat. 8. 4. And Master Cartwright bringeth in Christ, who commanded the leprous man, purged from his leprosie, to shewe him selfe to the priest, and to offer his oblation. To them both we answere, that neither the Apo­stles & brethren did communicate with the wicked Iewes and persecuting priestes, neither also was the leprous man commanded to communicate in that manner. For they were of the brethren, as is plaine in the text, with whome Paul did contribute in that matter of purifying. And it is written, that a great companie of the Priestes, were obedi­ent to the faith.Act. 6. 7. And therefore no doubt of it, the Apo­stles made choise of the priestes, as they did of those foure brethren, with whome Paul did contribute & other priests besides the high priest might accomplish the common ser­uice of the sacrifices,Heb. 9. 6, 7. Hebrewes 9. If they say that the sacri­fices and oblations were sanctified in the name of the wic­ked hie priests, we denie it: For the beleeuers did know that Christ the high Priest was come alreadie, and therefore in his name they tooke the sacrifices to be sanctified, and not in the name of the other priestes. Moreouer it is manifest, that they did not communicate, neither offer any offering, but rather that they shoulde haue done it, and were letted by the vproare before the dayes of purifying were ended.Actes 18. 18. [Page 74] And it seemeth that Paul knewe by the spirite and by the prophecies that went on them,Actes 2 [...]. 22. 23. that such an vproare should fall out,Actes 21. 11. and therefore also knewe that the offering shoulde be letted. If here againe they obiect, that the sacrifices them selues, were fulfilled in Christ, and also abrogate, and yet for the churches sake were tolerated, I aske them what they would gather hereby, or what vantage they would take a­gainst vs? Forsooth they would iustifie thereby a tollera­ting of our horrible abuses and disorders. But how cā they, by those things which God commandeth, warrant those things which God neuer cōmanded. Againe they are fowly deceiued, as touching the ceremonial law. First because they thinke the accomplishing or fulfilling of the ceremoniall law, to be a present and vtter abolishing thereof, without a certaine testimonie and preaching to the people, that it is abolished. Secondly for that they make no difference be­tweene the law disanulled: and the forbidding thereof, be­ing disanulled, also betweene the acte and manner of abro­gating the law, & the law already abrogated. Also because they will haue the new lawe stand in force, before it can be duely proclaimed and receiued in steade of the old. And so to the Hebrewes it is written, that the old testament being dis­anulled, Heb. 8. 13. is ready to vanish away▪ wherby it is ment, that it could not at once be taken away. It was accomplished & fulfilled in Christ, yea it was also abolished in Christ as the head, yet by degrees and measure it was abolished and taken from the body. wherefore it was vanishing▪ and yet not vtterly vanished▪ H [...]b. 3. 7. Psal. 95. 7. It stoode in some force, because the new testamēt, was not yet sufficiently proclaimed and preached to the people. And therefore it is sayde.Heb. 4, 7. To day if ye will heare his voyce. By these wordes, To day, he appointed a certain time, saith the Apostle, & so he sheweth that time to be appoin­ted for receiuing the further & better promises, also a bet­ter testamēt & a better professiō, thē was the former. So that we see it was lawful for the Iewes to hold stil their ceremo­nies & sacrifices,Heb. 7. 18. till they might surely know the first com­mādement [Page 75] to be disanulled, because of the weakenes there­of. For what faithful subiect wil forsake the old lawes of his prince, till he be assured that newe lawes are proclaimed which abrogate the olde.Heb 9. 16. Indeede the newe Testament or new Lawe tooke place and was established at the death of Christ, as the Apostle prooueth. yet by degrees it tooke place in the Churches, as Christ also teacheth, where hee sayeth,Iohn 12 3. And I, if I were lift vp from the earth will drawe all men vnto mee, meaning that at his death hee establi­shed a newe Lawe and Testament, by which men should bee drawen vnto him, not that they were drawen at once in a moment and all together. For the vayle or couering of the.2. Cor. 3. 14. 15. olde Testament was first to bee taken away. By this vayle no doubte Paul meaneth the ignorance of the Iewes, whereby they did cleaue so much to the old law & ceremo­nies. And therefore the Lord sayth in another place,Isa. 25. 7. that he will destroye in this mountaine, the couering that couereth all people, and the vayle that is spredde vpon all nations. For the Temple that stoode on the mountaine, with the ordinances thereof, was as a vayle to blynde the heartes of the Iewes▪ which dwelt among all nations. And therefore Christ did foreshewe the destruction of the Temple,Mat. 24. 2. which came to passe about fourtie yeeres after:Iohn 4. 21. A great parte of which tyme, it was still permitted to the Iewes to holde the olde Ceremonies. If they obiect that the vayle of blindenesse was sinne, and therefore to holde the cere­monies was sinne, I aunswere, that it was no vayle of blindnesse, to those that were willing, ready, and for­warde to receiue the Newe Lawe and Testament when it was offered. If againe they obiect that their willing­nesse and forwardnesse appeared not, seeing the Gentiles so quickely reiected the olde lawe, and they in so long time reiected it not: wee aunswere, that all the beleeuing Iewes did straightway reiect it in part, though not wholly: but some of them also reiected it wholy euen in shorte time, [Page 76] yet they were but fewe, and no maruaile. For the Gentiles had neuer receiued the olde lawe, and therefore might the more readily imbrace the [...]we. but the Iewes were alwaye zealous of the olde Lawe,Actes. 21. 20. and therefore coulde not so sud­denly be reclaimed from their former zeale. Further that distinction or difference betwixt the acte and maner of do­ing any thing▪ Heb. 2. 8. and the deede alreadie done, appeareth by that place in the Hebrewes: where it is said, thou hast put all thinges vnder his feete: in which wordes the acte done, is put for the doing thereof. For yet we see not, (saieth the Authour) all thinges subdued vnto him. but the worke was in haude, as it were, it was doing and prospered, till all thinges shoulde be subdued. Euen so we may say that the olde lawe was abolished. or taken away, at the death of Christ: that is, it was in abolishing, or it was readie to va­nish away, and to be vtterly abolished yea in Christ the head, it was abolished, and in the members also it was readie to be abolished.Rom. 14. 1, 2, 5. And therefore Paul giueth this di­stinction, that some brethren are weake in faith, and are not yet perswaded in their mindes, that the ceremoniall lawe is abolished▪ Vers. 14. others haue knowledge. Now Paul rea­soneth,Vers. 23. that in such matters concerning the obseruation of such ceremonies, euery mans faith or knowledge must bee his rule. For to him that iudgeth any thing vncleane, to him it is vncleane. Therefore he that doeth any thing in suche matters, against his knowledge or conscience, he sinneth. For whatsoeuer is not of faith or knowledge is sinne, saieth Paul. So then our answere is true, that the ceremonies of the olde lawe, were not vtterly to be remoued, but by faith and knowledge of the full abrogation thereof. Otherwise Paul woulde not haue said, that he which obserueth a day, or he which eateth not vncleane meates, obserueth the day of the Lorde, or eateth not the meate to the Lord. He mea­neth, according to his owne interpretation verse. 18. vers. 4.Verse 4. that they serue Christ in these thinges,Verse. 18. and are acceptable vnto God, and also to be approoued of men. And there­fore [Page 77] also they that were stronger, and had further know­ledge, were to beare with the weaker,Verse 3. 4. 13. 22. and to applie their knowledge and iudgement,1▪ Cor. 8. 9. that they put no stumbling blocke nor occasion to fall before their brethren. Againe we haue a further answere by these wordes of Paul. That some thinges may be done, vpon iust occasion, as when we are sure that we serue God therein: and some thinges are simply sinne, which may neuer be done vpon any occasion. Such are our vyle abuses and vngodly disorders, which are not as the ceremonies of the Lawe, that by occasion might be obserued or not obserued: as to make differēce of times or of meates: but they are altogether forbidden by the word of God, and therefore not indifferent as they terme them. And though some thinges in them selues,Rom. 14. 14. as they are crea­tures,1. Tim. 4, 4. are rather cleane, good, and lawfull, then (as they terme them) indifferent, yet their vse, or rather abusing in such manner and order, is not lawfull and good, neither in­different.

And here againe is another obiection to be answered, because when [...]ing Hezekiah did celebrate the Passeouer,2. Chron. 30. 17, 18, 19. there were many in the congregation, that were not clean­sed, and yet did eate the Passeouer. And thereby they doe gather, that wicked wretches may partake with vs in the sacraments. That place▪ plainely sheweth, that it was one­ly a ceremoniall vncleannesse, and no wickednesse in the people.verse. 19. For the people as the wordes doe testifie, prepared their whole heart to seeke the Lorde God. againe the same place answereth it selfe: that they were not clensed accor­ding to the purification of the sanctuary: whereby is ment, as it is written in Nombers,Nom 9. 10. that they were to keepe the Passeouer, notwithstanding such vncleannesse. For it could no way be remedyed. before the time of the Passeouer ap­pointed. And againe that ceremonie of vncleannes,Nom. 19. 20. was cō ­manded because of the sanctuarie, which might not be pol­luted. Nowe therefore they onely eating the Passeouer in their houses or tentes, and not comming to the sanctuarie, [Page 78] their ceremoniall vncleannes was no wickednesse in them. For the Priestes them selues,2. Chron. 29. 34, as the text declareth, [...]. Chro. 30. 16. were not suffered to come into the Sanctuarie or Temple,Marke 7. 15. being not yet cleansed. And yet also there is a further answere. For that the ceremoniall vncleannesse was no sinne, so long as it was not by their carelessenesse in auoyding it, or if it had bene sinne, yet it was to be counted a smaller escape or an infirmitie, and no grosser wickednesse. And then seeing it was openly rebuked, and openly confessed, and prayed for by the King▪ and also healed in the people, (For the Lorde healed the people saith the text,) I say, seeing the matter stoode so, howe shal any man excuse or tollerate thereby, our intollerable disorders, which are also incurable. For if escapes, or open infirmities are not so to bee borne with, but that they must be openly rebuked and mended, before the offenders can communicate in the sacraments, Then much rather are open grosser sinnes to be first redressed, before the sinners be suffered to partake in the sacraments. But Master Cartwright bringeth a place in Ieremie, for de­fence of suspendings, which the Bishops vse nowe a dayes: or at least for tollerating of them that the preachers should take and giue ouer their callings, as the Bishops and their officers doe appoint them. Why doeth he, so carelessely fal­sifie the Scriptures.Ierem. 36. 5. First he saith that Ieremy was suspen­ded from preaching, and then he woulde prooue that Iere­mie obeyed that suspension, thirdly he sayeth that Ieremie was at libertie of his bodie, and fourthly that he would not preache in the Temple for making a tumult. All whiche things are vtterly false, and haue no shewe of trueth in thē. For first it is plaine in the chapter he quoteth, that he was shut vp: Ierem. 32. 2. and therefore was not at libertie of his bodye: and the 32 chapter sheweth that Ieremie was shut vp in the court of the prison. Then also imprisoning of a man doeth shewe a vio­lent withholding of a man from preaching, and not a sus­pending. Further that Ieremie would obey no suspendings, it is plaine by the charge and message he had from the [Page 79] Lorde.Ier. 1. 10, 18. For he was set ouer the nations▪ and ouer the kingdomes, (as is written) and was made an yron pillar, and walles of brasse against the king, the princes and the priestes, and was not to bee afraide of their faces, least the Lorde did destroy him before thē. Indeede it is true as we haue prooued before, that we are not to preach to the vnworthie, Hose 4. 4. as to scorners, and persecuters. For there is a time when the wise man shall keepe silence, when scarce any is to rebuke, or reprooue another. But when Ieremie was shut vp, there were of the princes that tooke his parte. For by their meanes no doubt▪ did Ieremie get out of the prisonIere. 56. 19. court, and so hid him selfe with Baruch. There was no such bondage of suspendings, as Master Cartwright would tole­rate: and though there were, yet Ieremie obeyed them not, but onely gaue place to the tyrannie of persecuters, As for the tumult he speaketh of,Actes 23. 6. we know that Paul him selfe, though he sought peace, yet he cared more, for his safetye, and to witnesse the trueth, then he did for to raise a tumult. And Ieremie also ceased not to preache still, notwithstan­ding that a tumulte,Ierem 26. [...]. and much stirring had bene among the people, and priestes, and princes and Prophets, and all for his preaching.

Whereas Master Cartwright sayeth, that Christ liued in the corruptest times of the Churche, and when things were most confused, and fewest steppes of any lawfull calling to be seene, he is therein fowly ouerseene. For those were the dayes,Zech. 1 [...]. 10. wherein the Lord did powre, vpon the house of Da­uid & vpon the inhabitants of Ierusalem, the spirit of grace & of compassion.Zech. 13. 2▪ wherein also he did cut off the names of the Idoles from amongst his people, as againe it is prophe­cied: so that they were no more remēbred. and he did cause the false prophets,Luke 18, 9. & the vncleane spirits to depart from a­mongst thē.luke 2. 21. They had the true worship of God,Mar. 1, 40. the true sa­fices,Act. 10. 2 [...]. the order of the priestes and Leuites,Iohn 4 9. & their callings according to the Law of Moses, The church was separated frō the wicked, frō the sect of the Saduces, frō the idolatrous Samari­ [...]ans: There were very many good men & women, as Zacharie the [Page 80] Father of Iohn Baptist and his wife,Mat. 3. Simeon and Anna,Luke 3. and Nathaniel and many other. all which I neede not to recken vp. For there were great multitudes that heard Iohn Baptistes doctrine, and were baptised of him yea among the Pha­risces, there were those that touching the righteousnesse which is in the lawe were vnrebukeable. Phil. 3. 6. They were as it appeareth, most of them Leuites, openly called and authorised to preach by the El­ders aud people in the Synagognes. And surely that it is but a vaine exception, which Master Cartwright maketh of the high Priest,Nom. 20. 28. That he was made a yeerely officer, and came in by Simonie into his office. For Eleazar was made high priest, while Aaron the high Priest yet liued. 1. King. 2. 35. And Zadok was made high Priest, 1. King. 1. 42. and Abiathar and his sonnes put from the priesthoode, [...]. Sam. 2. 30. when as yet the couenant of the priesthoode pertained by the lawe vnto Abiathar and his house. But necessities and iust occasi­ons did oftentimes make change of the ceremoniall lawes, and yet no corruption nor abuse came thereby. Wherefore for aunswere I say, that the priesthoode was not made a yeerely office, but that by course euery yeere two priestes did execute the office. And this seemed to be tollerable by the Lawe, seeing that if one priest shoulde be sicke, or let­ted by some greater occafions, the other might be in his steade. As wee shewed before, that Eeleazar was chosen high Priest, Iohn 18. 13. while Aaron yet liued, and Zadok in Abiathars steade. and yet were there not two high Priestes in the office at once, but onely one at once was to execute the office. Also there seemed to be much doubt and controuersie, to which of the p [...]iestes, the priest­hoode did belong (as also we may reade in Iosephus.) And therefore two chiefely standing for it, there were two chosen to it. And because the lawe of God did not suffer two at once to bee in the office, they did succeede one another in the execution of the of­fice. Againe seeing they were of the sonnes of Aaron, and called after the order of Aaron, Heb. 5. 4. no doubt their calling was lawfull and good, Otherwise if any at that time, had bene lawfull high Priestes, and yet not lawfully called as was Aaron, then the Apostle woulde not haue set downe this for a generall [Page 81] trueth, That no man taketh this honour vnto him selfe, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. Neither let him here shift off our answere, by his fonde distinction of the essence of a priest, and of a lawfull priest, which before is refuted. As for Symonie wherewith he chargeth the high Priestes, hee can not prooue it against them. For if the Romanes o­uerruling them, did grieuously exact their tributes and pai­ments both of Christ himselfe,Mat. 17. [...]. as we may reade in Matth▪ and of the high priestes: it was no more Symonie in the priestes, then it was in Christ to pay them their exactions. For the priesthoode was their right. seeing it pertained vn­to them, being the sonnes of Aaron. yet can not Master Cartwright prooue that they payed any monie when they tooke their right, or if they did, that they thereby bought their right, and not rather payed an exaction, which the Romanes demanded when they tooke their right. But sup­pose that secretly they gaue bribes to the Romanes, & delt by Symonie, yet that being hidden and not manifest to the people, they were to be taken of men as lawfully called to that office. For if the Lawe and common tribute exacted monie of them, they might pay it as well as Christ. If the officers did exact any besides lawe, they did it secretely, lest they them selues should be condemned by lawe: and so it is manifest that no symonie could be laid to their charge.

And therefore no maruaile though Christ bad the man shewe him selfe to the high Priest. For before the high priestes became open persecuters, there was a lawfull com­munion to be had with them. But this communion was af­terward broken, and made vnlawfull through their open wickednesse. Also it is false, which Master Cartwright saith, that Christ did reuerence the high Priest,Iohn 18. 2 [...]. and gaue him ac­countes of his doctrine. For he gaue him no accountes, and answered him so roundly, that one of the officers whiche stoode by, smote him with a rodde. Also his aunswere is false cōcerning that place in Hoshea,Hose 4 6. that the Lord would refuse the priestes, for being any more his priestes: seeing [Page 82] they were without knowledge, of which wordes he sayeth, that the prophet rather giueth a rule to be followed in their election or deposition, then howe farre they may be vsed. Nay the Prophet there speaketh nothing of electing them, or deposing them by men▪ but rather of the plague or de­struction that shoulde come vpon them. yea hee sheweth that through the ignorance of the priestes all wickednesse and idolatrie reigned,Verse 9. and therefore he saith that there shal be like people like Priest, meaning that they shall haue a like destruction. Now Master Cartwright dare not say, that all abominable wickednes and Idolatrie reigning, and the priests them selues being wicked idolaters, I say, he dare not affirme, that they helde the couenant, or were the people, or church of God. For before he hath said the contrary. And howe then dare he say, that such priestes, were yet priestes vnto God, and were not deposed from their priesthoode, when as their owne wickednes and idolatrie did depose them. For that whole chapter of Hoshea is altogether a­gainst their wickednesse and idolatrie. And let M. C. knowe that our open grosse sinnes & abuses, being not curable by the discipline of the Church, are as euill as Idolatrie: as Sa­muel the Prophet doeth witnes,1. Sam. 15. 23. saying, that rebellion is as the sinne of witchcraft, and transgression (he meaneth trās­gression which is stoode in, and wil not be mended) is wic­kednes & idolatry. But this matter is made manifest before.

Now followeth the last part of his letter, & the last mat­ter in controuersie, as whether by communicating with a reading minister, we do communicate with their impietie, & establish their ministerie. M. C. herein doth more shame­fully erre, then if he should, with the bishops, altogether iu­stifie such reading ministers. For he might better say, they were lawfull ministers, and that their ministerie were law­full, then that he should confesse them to be vnlawfull mi­nisters, & yet iustifie that we may receiue them, as hauing the essence, and substance of ministers, and partake in their wicked ministerie, without impietie or establishing their [Page 83] But he may playnly see (except his eies of vnderstanding be vtterly darkened) that if any do vsurpe, as traitors, against her maiesty, then they also that come vnder their vsurped rule and gouernment, being once free from it, are also tray­ters together with them: So likewise those men vsurping a ministery, which Christ neuer gaue them, neyther sanctifi­ed to be in his Church, both they doe wickedly, and they also, that wil come vnder theyr ministery, doe establish theyr wicked ministery, and partake with them in theyr impiety. If a man of the winde, (sayth the prophet) and false fellowe doe he saying,Micah. 2. 11. I will prophecie vnto you of wine and of strong drinke; he shall euen be the prophet of this people. Yea why not, sayth Master Cartwright, if the Church doe call such a one, is it his sinne onely, sayth he, and not theyrs that receaue him. And the prophets, sayth he, doe not lay it to the peoples charge, though they communicate with such. Doe they not indeede? doth not this prophet Micha laye it to theyr charge?Zech. 13. 3. doth not also Zecharie shewe how vnlaw­full it was to communicate with false prophets, where he sayth, that when any false prophet shall yet prophecie, his father and his mother that begate him, shall saye vnto him, Thou shalt not liue: For thou hast spoken lyes in the name of the Lorde: and his father and his mother that begate him, shall thrust him through, when hee prophe­cieth. But the trueth of this matter, I haue prooued before. Let vs further examine his wise reasons. He confesseth that if by communicating with him, we doe make him minister, then we are guilty of his wickednes. But we make him not minister sayth he, though we communicate with him. But I demaunde, should we haue such ministers, if no parishi­oner, nor other did communicate with them? Woulde there be any magistrates, if there were no subiectes to bee vnder theyr guiding, or any master, if there were no seruants? So then as the hauing of seruants and subiects, to cōmunicate in the same houshold or kingdom, doth make [Page 84] masters and magistrates, so to haue parishioners to commu­nicate with such ministers, doth make them such ministers, and also establish their ministerie. If Master Cartwright were not voide of common reason in this matter, he would neuer affirme such absurdities. But before he graunted as much in effect, that the church which receiueth and calleth a minister doeth especially make him minister: and there­fore herein he is contrary to him selfe.1. Chro. 29. 22. And therefore it is written,Ierem. 23. 21. that the congregation of the people, made Salomō king, and Zadok high priest. Indeede if the false prophets, or reading ministers doe runne of them selues onely, and were not called nor receiued of any, neither had any office nor ministerie in the Church, then the deuill onely, might be said to make them ministers, but the parishioners recei­uing them for their ministers, and taking them to be called to that office by the Church, as Master Cartwright teacheth vs, and yeelding them selues to be their flocke and charge. I say, those parishioners together with the diuel and his offi­cers do make them ministers. As for partaking with the im­pietie of the minister, we haue prooued before, that if anye wickednes be open, and the church will not redresse it, it is guiltie of the wickednes committed. neither ought it to al­leadge, that it can not redresse it.1. Cor 5. For it hath the power of Christ,2 Cor. 10. to iudge those that are within, & those strong wea­pons of the spirituall warrefare, which can cut off all wic­ked disorders in the church. Otherwise as we haue shewed, it is not the church of God. Paul sheweth that except we purge out the olde leauen we can not be a newe lumpe to the Lord, neither keepe the Lordes feastes. he sheweth his meaning in that place, that they suffering such a grosse of­fender amongest them, were guiltie of his wickednesse, and coulde not partake in the sacraments, but it must needes be done with the leauen of wickednesse▪ and not with the vn­leauened bread of sinceritie and trueth.M [...] 1. 13. And therefore in the next epistle it is shewed,2▪ Cor. 7▪ 11. that they all repented and sor­rowed, as being guiltie of his sinne, whom they had no soo­ner [Page 85] excommunicate.

And why was king Hezekiah afraide,2. Chron. 30. 17, 18, 19. and all the peo­ple, For the ceremoniall vncleannes of some, but onely that they feared, least they all were polluted thereby, and the Passeouer not accepted. And therefore that vncleannesse, which the Lawe also did suffer, and which was without sinne, as we haue shewed, was openly confessed, and healed by prayer: least the keeping of that feast should be wholly vncleane. Howe much more then shal open grosse wicked­nesse, when it breaketh forth, in the Church, make them all polluted and guiltie thereof, if they refuse and will not re­dresse it. Finally his similitude of receiuing goods or landes of a mans father being a murtherer, is vaine. For the sacra­ments which the reading ministers doe geue vs, are neyther his sacraments, neyther the Lords, as we prooued before, but are polluted pledges of a wicked communion. Againe wee may not receiue golde of a thiefe, to iustifie his thieuerie. And wee haue shewed that such ministers are theeues and robbers, and can not as Fathers giue vs the Lordes holye thinges. Likewise is that answered of communicating with adulterers whome we can not (as he saith) auoide. For if their sinne be open and prooued, then both all the Church and euery one of the Church, ought and may auoyde them, I meane their fellowship in the sacraments. If their sinne be secret and not prooued by witnesses, then the question is not of them.

GRACE and peace &c. Beloued for so much as I left you the choyce for the first conference, whether you would haue it in writing or by speech of mouth; I attended some dayes for your answere of that matter: which because it was not returned, I esteemed that you held you still to the request of your letters, which was to receaue some thing from me by writing. For answere therefore, so it is that your letters affected me diuers­ly: For where your first page had raysed me vnto some hope for the reuniting of your selfe, with the rest of your company vnto vs, from whome you haue thought good to sunder your selues. The se­cond page which layeth forth the conditions of our peace, did cast me, and as it were beate me from it againe; howbeit the mercy of God vpholding me in some good hope of profiting you▪ or receauing some profite from you. I thought to cut out this time out of my weightiest and most necessary busines, wherein I might gieue you that contentment which the Lord hath inhabled my hand vnto. Vnto you not vnwilling to come vnto vs, the passage (as it seemeth) is stopped in diuers respectes: The short whereof, is the receauing without publique repentau [...]ce of those which come from the Chur­ches of England, where because in the outwarde profession that the lawes of that lande doe iustifie, there appeares vnto you no lawfull assemblies of the Churche of Christ: your feare is least in vniting your selues, with such you shoulde be vnequally yoked, and made fellowe members of some other body then of that where­of Christ Iesus is the head. First therefore if it bee shewed that the ordinary assemblyes of those which professe the Gospel in Eng­lande be the Churches of Christ, it seemeth that the way will bee paued and plained for mutuall entercourse betweene vs, thus ther­fore it seemeth it may be perfourmed, those assemblyes which haue Christ for their head and the same also for their foundation are Gods churches, such are the assemblyes of Englande, therefore [Page 87] &c. the assumption is euidēt in that by beleeuing that christ it our righteousnes we are made members of his body & thereby at liue­ly stones laide vpon him, as vpon a foundation, we growe into one spiritual house with him, now that they haue the like precious faith with vs, is conuinced not onely by their owne professiō, but also by the testimonie of the spirit of God, who by manifold graces powred vpon thē, euen vnto an apparant sanctification of nombers of thē, do beare them witnes that they be members of the body of christ,Rom. 8. 14. who as the head hath partaked vnto them his holy spirite,Esa. 59. [...]1. th [...]y that haue perfourmed vnto them the speciall couenant which the Lorde hath made with his churches of powring his spirit vpō thē & put­ting his words in their mouthes are the churches of God: but such are the assemblies in England as touching the spirit of God it hath bin said before, whereupon also it followeth that he hath likewise put his word in their mouthes, considering that the spirit of God is not giuē but by the word, & seing that the Lord in mercy hath set vp diuers burning lamps in those assemblies whereby light is con­ueyed more or lesse into all the parts almost of that land, it seemeth that the church of England should receiue iniury if it should not be accounted among the golden candlesticks which seeme to keepe out darknes & might from the Lords sanctuary, vntill such time as the day starre spring & Lucifer do rise in our hearts. If you say all do not beleeue the gospel truely which professe it, the same exceptiō lyeth against all other churches how reformed soeuer, if that there be fewer faithfull in our churches then in others, the trueth of the chnrch standeth not in the nomber, for if there were but in euery church one truely and vndissemblingly faithfull, al the rest holding the faith of our Lord Iesus christ in wordes onely, yet shoulde all those churches be vnto vs the churches of God, and if you say the assemblyes, as it were all the branches or armes of the candlesticke haue not lightes set vpon them, the greater nomber of them being dumped with dumbe ministerie, notwithstanding by the way you confesse those assemblyes vpon whome the Lorde hath set the lampe of a preaching ministery are the churches of God, whiche seemeth to cast downe that hill which standeth in the waye against our reioysing, wherebye you can not afoorde vs the Name [Page 88] of gods churches because we haue not the discipline by him appoin­ted, nowe for the other, whether they haue some glimpse of know­ledge by the dumbe ministerie or no, may afterwardes in another place be considered for the present I answere, that euen in those congregatiōs forasmuch as they both haue and might haue by some former ministrie or means which the Lord hath vsed towards thē receiued faith standing therby in our sauiour christ as in the shaft of a candlesticke they cease not to be a branch in the Lords candle­sticke, and being members of the same body they may well receiue some supply of their want from the light that shineth in the next branch vnto them, for if euery assembly being without a lampe of the ministry shuld by & by be holden to be broken from the shaft of the church candlesticke, then at euery vacation of the ministry and whensoeuer by death the Lorde shoulde put out one of his lightes, it shoulde followe that that assembly by the fall of their minister into the graue, shoulde from the hyest heauen fall into the graue of hell, but you will say peradventure, that an assembly that hath a dumbe minister is in worse case then that which hath none at all, if that be graunted, yet followeth it not therefore that the assem­bly which yesterday being without a dūbe minister was the church of God, shoulde to day by hauing such a one set ouer them be the Synagogue of Satan and here me thinkes whilest you go about to make nothing of the dumbe ministrie you ascribe more force to it, then it hath▪ for you make him not so much as a guide or an head of the church in that those which before in all equall iudgement were to be deemed members of Christ, by hearing them shoulde suddenly become the members of antichrist, I do not therefore yeeld vnto you, in that you saye they are the chiefe alwayes in the synagogues, our Sauiour Christ in whome those companies do be­leeue being the chiefe with whome through faith they growe to be one body, which rather then by hearing the dumbe minister to bee one with him, say therefore that it is a fault in them to heare such a minister thrust vpon them, yet that it is an apostacie from God and an vtter falling away from the Gospell, I see not with what great apparance of trueth it can be spoken. Moyses when diuers of the people claue vnto Korah, Datham and Abiram, forsaking [Page 89] willingly the lawfull and ordinary ministry of the Aronites, did not therefore cast them forth from the Lordes hoste; and should the churches of God, for hearing a dumbe minister which is thrust vp­on them, forthwith be reputed for runnagates from the Lorde. A­gaine, the Lorde is in couenaunt with that people to whome he gieueth the seales of his couenant; this he doth to our assemblies in England, therefore they are the Lordes confederates. Yf you say that the seales set to by the dumb ministery are no seales, (which af­terwarde commeth to be examined) yet you thereby confesse that those which are ministred by sufficient ministers are the true and vncounterfaite sacramentes of the church: whereby it falleth a­gaine, that you seeme to hold that the churches in England are not true churches of Christ, because they haue not his commaunded discipline. Hereunto may be added the iudgment of all the chur­ches of Christ in Europe, all which gieue the right hande of societie in the house of God, vnto the assemblies which are in En­gland. Which argument of the churches authoritie, albeit it be not so strong as it will enforce, yet ought it to staye all sodayne and hasty iudgments vnto the contrary, and so long to cause silence vn­till the cause be rightly on both sides debated, and the contrary of that which the churches holde, doe through the lightnesse sonne of the trueth thereof breake foorth, and if it be meete to proceede softly, and as it were with a leaden foote to the excommunication of one onely member of the Church of God, there ought verily to haue bin great consultation taken, when the Churches of two whole Ilandes shoulde haue bene cast out, (especially when they be holden in by voyces, not of diuers persons, but of all the chur­ches, to whome the knowledge of their estate hath come.) And if there were but one man worthie to be excommunicate, yet if the greater parte of your assembly, woulde not yeelde consente there­unto, I holde it that the order of the discipline requireth, that the rest are to beare the person whome they can not remooue. And therefore although the assemblyes of Englande had deserued tho­rough want of discipline, and of a teaching ministerie, to bee cast out from the accompt of the churches of God, yet being holden in by the most voyces of the Churches them selues, they ought to haue [Page 90] bene so farre borne withall, as the communicating with them shoulde not make them guiltie of a falling away from the Lorde. Nowe I come to those two reasons whereby you thinke you maye iustly holde the assemblies in Englande for no churches of God. And first of all to the reason of the discipline, for the want wher­of you giue them all without exception the blackestone of condem­nation from being the churches of christ, where it is to be vnder­stoode that as in a man there are certaine partes essentiall and such as without which the man can not stande, and other some seruing either to his comelinesse or to his long continuance, so it is in this matter, there is the foundation christ, whereupon it is necessary that by fa [...]th the assemblies be laide, which groweth vnto the Lordes building, without the which it can not bee his church, which thing being, whatsoeuer is either wanting of that which is commaunded, or remaining of that which is forbidden is not able to put that assembly which by faith is layde vpon Christ, from the right and title of being the churche of Christ, for faith can admit of no such thing, which giueth an vtter ouerthrowe and turning vpside downe of the trueth. By this title of the faithfull, the A­postle in his epistles noteth out the Churches of God, it being all one with him to say to the faithfull or to the Saintes, as to the Churches of such a place, whatsoeuer wanteth vnto this, or is more then ynough, it wanteth or aboundeth to the disgrace and vncomelinesse, or to the hassarde of the continuance and not to the present ouerthrowe of the churche and although besides faith in the Sonne of GOD there may be many thinges necessary for euery assembly, yet be they necessary to the comely and stable being and not simplye to the being of the churche: hereupon the people of Israel which neglected for the space of fourtie nine yeeres the holy Sacrament of circumcision and the Passeouer also, (as it see­meth) one onely time excepted, seased not therefore to be the chur­ches of God and to haue the Sanctuarie amongest them. And in this respectes the Dutch assemblyes whereof the greatest parte in high Germany, which besides the same Name of discipline which is common to our churches, are grossely deceiued in the matter of the Supper are notwithstanding holden in the roule of the chur­ches [Page 91] of god. In this respecte also certaine assemblyes of our pro­fession which hauing the vse of the discipline permitted vnto them, are not suffered to haue the vse of the Sacramentes of the Lordes Supper are no therefore when the Lordes churches are mustered and their Names written and enrouled vp, cast out as vnfit to remaine in any accompt of the Lordes hoste without anye parte of that order and discipline which the Lorde hath appoin­ted. I graunt there can be no churche of christ for that without some parte of it there can be no faith in Iesus christ, it is a piece of that discipline of our Sauiour christ that there shoulde be cer­taine, which shoulde be chosen out of the rest to preache the go­spell, by preaching whereof the churches are gathered. Where therefore there is no ministerie of the worde there it is playne that there are no visible and apparant churches. it is another parte of the discipline of our Lorde, that the rest of the body of the churche shoulde obey those, that are set ouer them in the Lord. Wheresoeuer therefore there is no obedience of the people giuen to the ministers that in the Lordes name preach vnto them, there also can be no churche of christ, but where these two be, although other pointes wante, yea although there be some defect in these, that neither the ministers doe in all pointes preach as they ought, nor the assemblyes in all pointes obey vnto the wholesome doctrine of their teachers, yet doe they for the reason abouesaide retaine the right of the churches of god.

This may be made by plaine similitude from the body of man,A foppe­ry. whereunto we are alreadie entred, for if any man shuld haue both his hands & his armes cut off his eyes put out &c. yet as lōg as the head standeth and other vitall parts, he is to be accompted a man, although a maymed man: euen so it is in the assemblie, as long as it holdeth the head, how defectiue it is otherwise, yet it hath the due and right of the church of god, and although a man shoulde haue sixe fingers on one hande and but three one another, & albeit they shoulde stande where the mouth doeth, yet all this deformitie should not hinder from being truely holden to be a mā, although it would be great deformitie in him on the other parte if he had no head at all or that there were no naturall coniunction of the partes [Page 92] one with another; but a whole and through displacing of euery parte, from his proper state then verely coulde he not be deemed to haue either the proportion of a man or his life, so likewise if an assembly either holde not the head which is Christ Iesu or be no­thing els but a confused multitude without any parte of that or­der which the sonne of God hath appointed, the same is iustly cros­sed out of the accompte of Gods churche, was not Ierusalem after the returne from Babylon the citie of the great King, vntill snche time as Nehemias came, and builded vp the walles of the citie: to say therefore it is none of the Church of god, because it hath not receiued this discipline, me thinkes is all one with this as if a man woulde say it is no citie because it hath no wall, or that it is no vineyarde because it hath neither hedge nor dyke. It is not I grant so sightly a citie or vineyarde nor yet so safe against the inuasion of their seuerall enemies which lye in waite for them, but yet are they truely both cities and vineyardes. There remaineth the other point which is against those assemblies onely which haue a dumbe ministerie, wherein that parte of your conclusion that the assem­blies where they be are none of the Churches of god is before an­swered. There resteth that part of your conclusion, whereby you inferre that the Sacramentes ministred by them are none of gods Sacramentes, and therefore that a man may not receiue anye of them at their handes, here first I agree with you that their mini­sterie is vnlawful and to them selues without repentance a certain matter of destruction, especially in those vnto whome the know­ledge of this corruption is come, to the churches where they be pre­sently hurtefull, and in the ende without remedie deadly, but that they are no ministers of god so far as to receiue the good thinges they offer vnto vs that I suppose I may not well yeelde vnto, the grounde hereof I take from the former parte of my answere that for so much as they are allowed by the churches of god they ought vntill remedie may be founde of so great disorder to be heard and receiued so farre as they can giue vs any thing that is of christ, and for this cause our Sauiour christ commanded that the Scribes shoulde be heard in that they taught truely,Mat [...]h. 23 2. which honour our sa­uiour christ woulde neuer haue giuen vnto them, vnlesse the [Page 93] churche calling had mooued him thereunto▪ [...] had it bene lawfull for the people otherwise to haue hearde them▪ for it is eui­dent that their vnfitnesse and vnlawfulnesse in the ministerie al­though another way was as great, as it is in our reading ministers they were all together deceiued in the Messias, for neither knewe they that Iesus was the christ, nor yet that the christ whome they looked for shuld be the sone of god,Iohn 9. 22. but held him for a bare & na­kedman.Mat. 22. 42. It appeareth also that they taught the iustification which is by the lawe of workes not onely in the eighteenth of Luke but euen the very selfe same place where our Sauiour commaundeth this audience vnto them, for speaking of the workes of the morall Lawe, which they woulde not touch with one of their fingers, hee saith that they layde them vpon the peoples backes, as burdens which coulde not be borne, whereby our Sauiour besides the Pha­risticall pride and Lordlinesse in teaching signifieth that they taught them to iustification, seeing that if they had onely taught them as testimonies and fruites of faith they had not bene vntolle­rable, but as our Sauiour saith an easie yoke, and as Saint Iohn sayeth,1. Iohn 5. not grieuous or heauie▪ Now the dumbe ministerie is not farther off from the institution of a lawfull ministerie,Matth. 11. then to teach vntruely in the chiefe groundes of Religion, neither is the edifying of the church respected in making lawes for the mini­sterie, lesse hindered by a ministerie teaching false thinges, and that in so waightie pointes, as by an vnpreaching minister, and according to this saying of our Sauiour christ, we may see what the practise of the Prophetes had bene before, who although they had oftentimes to doe both with false teachers and Priestes that dumbe dogges and not able to barke,Isay 58. yet giuing the people war­ning of their corruptions and insufficientnesse, threatning also the casting them from the ministerie in the good time when the Lorde shoulde haue pitie on his Church, they are neuer founde to haue forbidden the people to come to their sacrifices, or to bring their sacrifices commaunded by the lawe vnto them, yea our Sauiour that liued in the corruptest times of the Churche, and when things were most confused and fewest steppes of any lawfull calling to be seene, yet commaunded the man whome he purged from his leprosie [Page 94] to shewe him selfe vnto the priest, where it is to be obserued,Matth. 8. that he saith to the priest generally without willing him to make choise of a priest better instructed or affected vnto the trueth then the rest, but indifferently vnto the priest, the high priest albeit hee was at that time contrary to the Lawe made a yeerely officer, al­though he entred in by Simonie and rewarde vnto the Romanes, yet▪ notwithstanding we see our sauiour bare him reuerence for his office sake and as before his Iudge in spirituall causes gaue an accompt of his doctrine, we haue another example of reuerence vnto such rulers euen in thinges that were done by them wronge­fully▪ Ierem. 36. for Ieremie being as it appeareth suspended for a time from comming into the Temple and albeit at libertie of his body woulde not, least as it seemeth be should make a tumult enter into the tem­ple, and therefore hauing written that which he had to say, sent Baruch to reade his sermon in the temple, moreouer when a magi­strate is not able to doe some parte of his office, as for example be­ing able to doe the dueties which are to be perfourmed in peace is insufficient for mortall offences, yet no man refuseth to take that which he is able to giue, because he is not able to doe all that is re­quired. Euen so endeuoring to our uttermost to a sufficient mini­sterie, I woulde thinke in the meane season, that the good thinges that they are able to giue vs may be taken at their handes and if any say that it is of the substance of a church minister to be able to teach, and therefore he is no minister that hath not that habili­tie, it may be answered that it is of the substāce of a good & law­full minister of God, but not simply of a minister, whereunto it is sufficient to haue the church calling as it is of the substance rather of a lawfull magistrate to be able to iudge betweene his subiectes then simply of a magistrate whome the election of the people, or of other to whome his choise belongeth, maketh a magistrate of the Lorde although he be no lawfull or sufficient magistrate as there­fore we take him for a magistrate which for the ignorance of his charge may be called an idoll magistrate. Euen so it seemeth that he may bee holden for a minister which hath the Churches cal­ling albeit he be not able to doe the principall charge of that mi­nisterie. [Page 95] Neither doeth the place of the Prophet [...], whiche sayeth,Osee 4. 6. because they haue refused knowledge they shall bee no Priestes vnto him stande against this the Prophet rather giuing a rule to followe in the election or disposition of them then shew­ing howe farre they may be vsed, finally to that which is obie­cted of communicating with their [...], in taking any thing at their handes, I answere first that the same might haue bene laide to the peoples charge vnder the Lawe, which is neuer done of the Prophetes. Secondly if by communicating with him we shoulde make him minister, I graunt that a piece of his guilte would sticke to our fingers, but when that is not, I see not howe by receiuing the sacramentes of him which partake more vnto his wickednesse then the sonne is partaker of his fathers murther, because he recei­ueth of his fathers gifte, some parte of his owne landes and mo­ueables and so much there then here as the father giueth his owne thinges, where the dumbe minister doeth onely dispence the giftes of the Lorde, wherefore it may bee rather feared least in refu­sing the Sacramentes offered by him, we put the Lorde awaye from vs, whose they be then in taking the Sacramentes at his handes to bee parteners of impietie, which is the meanes, and can take no holde of the Sacramentes in any sorte. For euen as not able to a­uoyde him I may communicate with a minister that is an adulte­rer without being partaker of his adulterie. Euen so also may I communicate with a dumbe minister, and yet neuerthelesse be free from his impietie. Thus haue you my aunswere written not with­out the feare and trembling your selfe make mention of, where­by it will not be harde for you to vnderstande howe both our ho­ly desires of being vnited together may be perfourmed. And al­though I write in good assurance especially in the former parte as touching the rightfull Title of the Churches of Christ to be due to the assemblyes in Englande, yet remembring (besides the common frailtie of our whole race) special breaches & decayes in my selfe I wil willingly hearkē vnto any (much more vnto you whō the Lord in mercie hath bestowed good graces vpon) shewing better thinges. [Page 96] For which cause if further conference be needefull, I must tho­rough businesse be inforced, to reserue it to conference by word of mouth, sometimes after dinner. And thus with my most humble prayers vnto the Lorde our God for his holy spirite whereby wee may be able to discerne the thinges that differ to our vn­offensiue walking in the sight of all men, e­uen vnto the daye of the Lorde I bid you Farewell.