It is so long since I saw you, Philander, that I had almost forgotten you: I thought I should remember your face, but this apparell made me doubt of you.

Euen he, Theophilus: and though you haue descried me, where I would not be knowen, yet I trust for olde acquaintance you meane me no harme.

If you be as far from doing euill, as I am from wishing you euill, I dare warrant you for any hurt you shall haue: but what meaneth this strange attire? are you wearie of a stu­dients life,The Iesuites disguised. that you fall to ruffling in your latter daies?

Not choice, The­ophilus, but feare driueth me to this: I take small pride in going thus disgui­sed.

What neede you feare if you be faultlesse? true men hide not their heades.

Not where truth may take place, but where falshood ouer beareth all, it is time for true men to hide their heads except they wil loose them.

Is your case so desperate, that you stand in danger of loosing your head?

Not my deserts, but the rigour of your lawes giue me iust cause to feare that which so many of our side haue felt.

Your frindes neuer felt the least part of that they did to others, neither haue they cause to complaine but of too much ease.

You haue spoyled them of their goods, cast them in prisons among theeues,They com­plaine of cru­eltie. hanged them as traitours: call you this ease? what could they feele worse? what could you do more?

Whom meane you? the Northren re­bels, or Irish conspiratours, that were thus hardly dealt with?

As though you knew not, whom I meant. Their heads and quarters pitched in rowes on your gates and bridges are to this day witnesses of their constancie, and momi­ments of your cruelty.

Though I can gesse, you only ean tell whom you meane. Belike the Iesuits that lately suffered for Treason.

Treason was obiected to them for a colour to make them odious to the people, but in deede [Page 2] religion was the very cause why they were condemned: for would they haue re­canted their faith, they should neuer haue bene brought to the barre.

It may be Pardon was offered them, so they would recant their Trayterous as­sertion, that Popes at their pleasures may depose Princes, and discharge their subiects from all obedience, which Christian mildnes in seeking their amend­ment, and shewing them so much fauour, doth not quite them from the lewdnes of their enterprise. The Princes mercy is no proofe of their innocencie. But in sadnes Philander are you since your departure become a Iesuite, that you take their part so freshly?

The question you aske mee, is very dangerous, considering the strait­nes of your lawes: Yet promise me that you will not bewray me, and I wil be plaine with you, what I am. I loue not to dissemble, much lesse to deny my vocation.

Promise me likewise, that you wil attempt nothing against your duetie to God and your Soueraigne, and I wil do the best I can for your safety. Without this condition I may not yeeld to your petition.

I re­quire no more: but will you performe that?

None so deceitfull, as those that be most mistrustfull. Hauing our former acquaintance for a warrant, and my promise now made you for your better securitie, why feare you?

Blame mee not if I bee somewhat curious in disclosing my selfe:They be curi­ous to disclose themselues. life is sweete, and that nowe must I put wholly into your hands, which is no smale aduenture.

Were your life in my hands, as it is not, you should well perceiue wee delight not in blood: Howbeit you cast greater perill than you neede. The lawes of this lande doe not touch you so neere for entering the new found order of Iesuits, neither for infecting the simple with the leauen of your doctrine, but onely for making deuotion a cloke for sedition. Leaue your vndermyning the Princes right & state by these secrete and suttle meanes, & I see no daunger of death that is toward you.

If I be taken with any practise against the Prince,They pretend obedience. I refuse no kind of torment: onely from preaching & publishing the Ca­tholique faith I neither can, nor wil be drawen.

Wel profered if it be wel performed. In deed true Christians euer endured, neuer displaced Princes, no, not when they were tyrants & heretiques: for God is not serued with resi­sting the sword, which himselfe hath ordeyned to cherish the good, & chasten the bad, but with duetiful obedience to Magistrates when their lawes agree with his: & in case their willes be dissonant from his, thē is he serued with meekenes, & readines to beare, and abyde that, which earthly powers shall inflict. And this was the cause why the Church of Christ alwayes reioyced in the blood of her Martyrs, patiently suffering the cruell rage both of Pagans and Arrians, and neuer fauoured any tumult of rebelles, assembling themselues to withstande authoritie.

Tell vs that we knowe not, this we neuer doubted of.

Then if your late Iesuites were sent hither as Pioners to make ready the way for the Popes bull, that should disherite the Prince, and giue her crowne to an other, what say you, were they iustly condemned for Treason, or no?

You shall neuer be able to proue them sent to that end.

I doe [Page 3] not as yet say they were, but what if they were, doe you thinke them Mar­tyrs or Traytours?

I am sure they were not. For I my selfe came in the same message with them, and knowe what charge was giuen both to them and to me, that in no wise we should meddle with matters of state.

I thought all this while by the counterfaiting of your apparell, and earnest de­fending of Iesuites, that you were of that crewe.

You vrge mee so farre, that I can not conceale it. The truth is, I am of their societie, and haue so been euer since my last going beyond the Seas: and am now sent backe with others to labour the conuersion of this Realme, and to reconcile men to the Catho­lique fayth, and Apostolique Sea, for the sauing of their soules.

I am the more sory for it, if sorow would helpe: your lighting on them was vnhappy: your ioyning with them is vngodly.

You do the men great wrong to carie that hard opinion of them with­out cause: for my part I protest I neuer mette with a more religious, vertu­ous, and learned company, than the Iesuites are.

You take light occa­sions to set forth your owne prayses, as if it were a poynt of perfection to com­mend your selues.They com­mend them­selues.

Though we striue to excell others in learning and vertue, which we lawfully may, yet bragge we not of it.

You need not. The maker of your Apologie doth it for you: whose fingers ytched till he came to the comparing, and aduancing of himselfe and his fellowes, in this insolent manner.Apolog. cap. 5. Our wittes, sayth he, be of God in as plentifull measure as theirs: our founda­tion in all kinde of faculties, requisite for the studie of diuinitie, is as deepely layed as theirs: our diligence rather more than theirs: our time both of age and studie more complete than theirs cōmonly can bee: our order, methode, & course of diuinitie much more profitable than theirs: we haue moe disputations, lessons, conferences, examinati­ons, repetitions, instructions, catechizings, resolutions of cases, both of conscience and controuersie, methodes and manners to proceede to the conuersion of the deceiued, and such like exercises in our two Colleges thā are in their two Vniuersities cōtayning neere hand 30. goodly Colleges. As for the Masters & professors of our Colleges, specially the Romane readers, we may be bold to say, They be in all kind, the most choyse and cunning men of Christendom, for vertue, learning, &c. Nowe for that part of education which pertayneth to Christian life & manners, our chiefe endeuour is in both the Colleges to breede in our scholers deuotion, &c. Which is done by diuers spirituall exercises, as dayly examinations of their consciences, often communicating or receiuing the. B. Sa­crament, much praying, continuall hearing and meditation of holy things.

Can you in all this charge him with a lye?

Whether it bee true or false that he saith, we neither care, nor come to discusse. The comparison of wits, ages and exercises would rather beseeme boyes in the schoole, than diuines in the Church: this vaunting of vertue, learning, oftē communicating, much pray­ing, continuall meditation of holy thinges is fitte for Pharisees, vnfit for Chri­stians. Better is, Sententiarum ex August. de­cerptarum 118. sayth Austen, an humble confession in doing euill, than a proud vaunt in doing well.

To speake truth is no vaunt.

To speake trueth in the commendation of your selues, is the greatest pride you can [Page 4] shewe.Prouer. 27. Let an other man prayse thee, sayth Salomon, and not thine owne mouth. But this is the iust reward of your error, that you take notable paynes to please your selues with an inward perswasion of your owne worthines, & to be reuerenced of others for y^e deepenes of your learning & holines of your liues: which desire of glorie so possesseth your heads, y^t when other heraults fayle you, you sticke not, openly to the whole world, to blaze your owne vertues.

We neuer spake but forced, & that in the necessarie defence of our selues.

Who forced Campion to write backe to Rome not only what admiration, but what veneration (a worde fitter for Saints than friers) himselfe, and his bande of Iesuites had gotten in England, by their singular learning and holines. The Priests, Camp. in Epist. ad praepositū or­dinis general. saith hee, of our societie, they excelling in knowledge and sanctitie, haue raysed so great an opinion of our order, that the veneratiō, which the Catholiques yeeld vs, I thinke not good to be spokē but fearefully. The fra­mer of your Apologie what occasion had hee to braue both Uniuersities, in such sort as he doth, as well with the scholasticall, as spiritual exercises of your two Colleges, but only that he would haue the Iesuites waxe famous for the great­nes of their skill, and purenes of their liues, that the chiefest praise might re­dound to him selfe,The Iesuites answere this proclamation with vaunting of their pri­uate orders & exercises. and others the Masters and Gouernours of those two Col­leges?

We were charged in open proclamation, that we liued contrary to the lawes of God and the Realme.

And doth your dayly disputing, or much praying discharge you from that?

It sheweth our domesticall conuersation to be honest and orderly.

That is nothing to this pur­pose. The Princes Edict did not meane your priuate disputatiōs or deuotions, of which you cracke, but obiected vnto you, that you trayned vp your scholers in false and erroneous doctrine, and vsed them to lewde and vngodly purposes, as to withdrawe the people from their obedience to God and the Magistrate.

Let your Edict meane what it will, our Apologie cleareth vs from all that was vntruely surmised against vs, and I am right glad you haue seene the booke: for there shall you find vs sufficiently proued to be both good subiects and good Catholiques, notwithstanding your often and earnest inuectiues to the contrary.

If facing and cracking will doe the deede, the conquest is yours: Your defender hath fraighted his booke with so many solemne prote­stations, patheticall exclamations, and confident asseuerations: but to the wiser sort, that are led with euident trueth, not with eloquent speach, vnlesse you make some better demonstration of your integritie to God and your Prince, than I yet see, you bee like to goe neither for good subiects, nor for good Catholiques.

Can you wish for a better than our Apologie?

I neuer mette with a worse.No one thing prooued in all their Apol.

What doth it lacke?

Not wordes, they be copious & curi­ous enough: but I neuer sawe fewer or weaker proofes.

What one poynt is there left vnproued?

Nay, what one thing haue you iustly proued?

Come to the parts. The first chapter giueth the reasons of our leauing this lande, and liuing beyonde the seas, what say you to those? bee they not eui­dent? be they not sufficient?

Repeate them your selfe, lest I chaunce [Page 5] to misse them.Apolog. cap. 1. Sect. 8. The causes why they fled the Realme.

The vniuersall Lacke of the Soueraigne sacrifice and Sacra­ments Catholiquely ministred, without which the soule of man dyeth as the body doeth without corporall foode: this constraint to the contrary seruices, whereby men perish euerlastingly: this intollerable othe repugnant to God, the Church, her Ma­iesties honour, and all mens consciences: and the dayly dangers, disgraces, vexations, feares, imprisonments, empouerishments, despites, which they must suffer: and the raylings and blasphemies against Gods Sacraments, Saints, Ministers, and all holies, which they are forced to heare in our Countrie are the onely causes why so many of vs are departed out of our naturall Countrey, and doe absent our selues so long from that place, where we had our being, birth, and bringing vp. These they be, what fault find you with them?

The selfe same that I finde with the rest of your Apologie: You say what you list, and neuer offer to proue that you say: your bare word is your best argument, and other authoritie than your owne, you produce not.

The matter is so manifest, that it needeth no proofe.

That presumption is so foolish, that it needeth no refuter.

If you doubt or deny them, wee bee readie to proue them.

That must you first doe, before wee refell them. Yet lest you should glorie too much of your paynted sheath, the replie to your first chapter may shortly bee this.

The sacrifice which Christ offered on the crosse for the sinnes of the worlde wee beleeue with all our heartes,Our sacrifice. and reuerence with all our might: accounting the same to bee perfect without wanting, eternall without re­newing, and this is our Soueraigne sacrifice. The Lordes table, which himselfe ordeined to bee the memoriall of his death and passion wee keepe and continue in that maner and forme that hee first prescribed, and this may bee called, and is a sacrifice, both in respect of the thankes there gi­uen to God for the redemption of man, and the bloodshedding of our Sa­uiour expressed and resembled in that mysterie. More than this no Ca­tholique father euer taught, and lesse than this our Churches doe not receiue.

Touching the Sacramentes, Our Sacra­ments. I meane baptisme and the Supper, if Christ and his Apostles did minister them Catholiquely, wee can not fayle, but doe the same: wee swarue not a iote from their example: the Scriptures will not lye, let them bee iudges. Shewe but one worde, element, or action added, omitted, or altered in either of them, and we graunt your Apologie to be sound and good, which otherwise we see to be replenished with many spitefull slaunders, and shamefull errors. But if the Catholicisme, which you stand on, were not knowen to them, as in truth it was not, the lacke of some ceremonies, which be matters indifferent, and set your abuses aside, may be kept, or left without hurting the faith or offending the godly, can bee no iust cause for you to flie the realme, and forsake the Prince.

The diuine seruice here established you may lewdly despise,Our diuine seruice. you shall hardly disproue: y^e Psalmes, y^t we sing, be Dauids: y^e bookes y^t we read, be Canonical: y^e praiers y^t we make, be consonant to y^e rule & proportiō of faith & true godlines: & [...] [Page 8] quitting them for our owne parts to the present possessioners & incombents, or to whom soeuer God shall permit.

You fled the Realme not forced to that extremitie, but moued with a priuate dislike of the Princes regiment:An answer like their A­pologie. and therefore if the lack of your Countrey were not eased by many supplies, both abroade as you graunt, and from home, as we know, you may thanke your selues: you were the first autors and wilfull contriuers of your owne woe. You want no commodities, nor cur­tesies in the common wealthes, where you liue: yet such is your Nicenes, that you can not beare the ordinarie difficulties, and accidents that follow strangers in euery place, without sorowfull bewayling before God, and often lamenting one to another the hard state of your long banishment. Your dayly praiers haue their dayly purposes, your continuall sighes and teares shewe the secret griefe, you conceiue to see your counsels disclosed, and attempts defeated: which ra­ther enforceth the sharpnes of your humor, than the goodnes of your cause. That you be willing to come home wee well beleeue, howbeit that proueth not your departure lawful, nor your returne peaceable. The Wolfe would fayne be with the sheepe, and the Lion is glad to bee with his pray: Yet this is no token of their friendly meaning. To preuent all suspicion of euill, you deepely pro­test, that you voyd your thoughts of honour and preferment, relinquishing those to the present incumbents, and addressing your selues to serue the poore soules to their saluation. The strife betwixt vs is not for Bishoprickes and benefices, but for Christs glorie, and the Princes safetie, whom God hath appointed both your and our Soueraigne: and therefore your renouncing of titles and digni­ties before hand, sauoreth of your accustomed vanitie, and nothing concerneth the matter. Saluation of soules is well pretended, but ill perfourmed. Your bores of oyle, your glasses of holy water, your fardles of other consecrated tri­fles, wherewith you haue fraighted this Realme, are slender helpes to saue soules: nay rather, your reconciling of those, that receiue you, to the Sea of Rome: your trayning them to neglect of the scriptures, and reuerence of your fansies: your leading them from the Church of God, and communion of their brethren, to your barbarous and Idolatrous Masse: your withdrawing them from their obedience to the Princes wholesome and Christian lawes, is their vtter destruction and your assured condemnation. Yet to proue your selues louing wormes, you wish to be admitted to your Countrie, in what state soeuer, were it in penance and pouertie neuer so great: euen so the snake being frozen lyeth quiet and still, waxing once warme hee vseth not onely to stirre, but also to sting. Your sugred words can not sweeten the bitternes of your actions. God hath blessed her Maiestie with greater respect of religion, than to suffer the ve­neme of your doctrine to poyson her people: and with better intelligence of your drifts, than to harbour a rowte of Iesuites, the very forerunners and factours of her open and professed enemie. The Pageants of your holy father and founder, were so lately tried, and are so iustly feared, that her highnes nei­ther with her safetie may, neither of her wisedome will permit you to beginne [Page 9] a newe reuell. Her graue and worthie Counsell perceiue that a small leake sin­keth a strong vessell, and the least sparke kindleth a mightie flame.

Call you this answering?The proofes & places of their whole Apolo. answe­red in sixe leaues. You say what you list without warrant or witnes.

And what did you when you sent vs ouer whole chapters, yea the most part of your Apologie, bringing no better nor other reason nor proofe than your simple worde, which is, God knoweth, a single proofe?

You will hardly speake well of our doings or writings.

Let your booke be seene. If I lye, reproue me.

Your first chapter hath in all fiue authorities,The 1. chapter of the Apolog. Socrat. eccl. [...] lib. 2. ca. 18 & lib. 4. ca. 12.16. Niceph lib. 11. ca. 49.50. Amb. lib. 5. de Bas. traden. Cyp. epist. 5. Niceph. lib. 9. chap. 23. Sect. 8. and not one of them toucheth any matter in question. The three first shewe, that certaine Arrian Emperours suffered true and false religion in one Citie, a proper president for Christian Princes: the two next proue, that godly men assembled in priuate houses, when they coulde not in Churches for feare of persecution. Wee neuer sayde other­wise.

Your seconde chapter hath fiue other places besides the first booke of Bede, which wee doubt not of. Three declaring that the Romanes twelue hundred yeres agoe were deuout and charitable;The second Chapter of the Apologie. Hiero. Epist. 16. Euseb. lib. 4. Cap. 22. Hiero. praef. lib. 2. in Epist. ad Gal. August. de vtilit. cred. Cap. 17. Cypri Epi. 55. See folio 222. which is nothing to our dayes, or your purpose: the other two you safely enforce to helpe the Sea of Rome, and yet were they so ment, they conclude but coldly for you.

Your third chapter alleageth S. Austen twise, mary not against vs, but at rouers to make vp your reckoning: and once S. Hierom, warning a gentlewo­man of Rome, to preferre the fayth of Innocentius and Anastasius, which at that time he knew to be sound and syncere, before certaine poysoned plants then freshly springing in Rome. This aduise wee refuse not, and at this day we seeke to recall your holy father from his newe found heresie and tyrannie to the right imitation of their fayth and humilitie,The third Chapter of the Apolo. Hiero. Epist. 8. ad Demetri­adem. that were godly, learned and auncient bi­shops in that Sea before him.

On your fourth and fift chapters, which are the chiefe strength and force of your Apologie, you bestowe some more cost, but not much, or at lest not much to the matter in question.

Your fourth chapter euen at first entrance you fill the page with eleuen texts of scriptures,The fourth Chap. of the Apolog. Luc. 22.10. Mat. 16.28.18. Ioh. 14.16. Esa. 59. Deut. 17. Mala. 2. Act. 15. 1. Cor. 14. & 1. Tim. 2. 1. Pet. 2. Esa. 60. declaring what promises & assistance from God y^e true preachers and ministers of his word haue: then alleage you S. Paul prohibiting women to teach or speake in the Church, and S. Peter, calling Princes humane crea­tures: these be things that wee neither doubt of, nor striue for. This done you draw neere the skirmish, and arming your selues with three scriptures and se­uen fathers, you thinke to vanquish and ouerrunne the Princes power in cau­ses ecclesiasticall: but soft Sirs, you mistake your weapons, their force is not great.

The nation and kingdome, sayth God to Sion, that wil not serue thee shal perish. The kingdome, he sayth not the king: but graunt it were directly spo­ken of kings:August. contra Cresco. lib. 3. ca. 51. what seruice that is which God requireth of kings, if you doe not knowe, S. Austen will tel you. In this, sayth he, Kings serue God, if their king­domes [Page 10] they command that which is good and forbid that which is euill, not in temporall affayres onely, but in matters of religion also. And againe, Yee Kings serue Christ, in making lawes for Christ. Agust. Epi. 48. So that the cōmanding their people to reuerence the word and obey the will of God, and the making of strait lawes to keepe men in the faith and Church of Christ, that is I say the seruice, which Princes owe to God and his Sion, and which you deny lawful for them to medle with.

Acts. 20. & Hebr. 23.By the two next places of S. Paul you prone that Pastors & Bishops be ru­lers of the Church. That worde Rulers you catch hold of, as if the wordes in S. Paul did not also signifie feeders and leaders, which be the two signes and due­ties of good shepheards: and yet we neuer denied but the messengers and dispo­sers of Gods mysteries by preaching the woord, administring the sacraments, and well vsing the keyes, haue their internall and spirituall regiment ouer the soules and consciences as wel of Princes, as others: which is the true meaning of the place that you bring out of Nazianzene. Nazian. ora. 15.

Epist. ad solit. vit. degentes. Athanasius, Suidas in Leon. Lib. imperf. ad Constantium. Osius, Leontius, Hilarie and Epist. 33. ad for. Ambrose, sharply reproue Con­stantius, & Valentinian, for taking vpon them to chaunge the faith, & abolish the godhead of Christ: & plainely told those Princes they were no iudges of faith, nor arbiters of doctrine; which was true, which false: neither might they so much as interpose their iudgement or authoritie, whiles such cases were debated. That very lesson haue wee from the beginning taught with our lippes, & sealed with our blood, more stedfastly than you. We neuer gaue prince, nor Pope, right to controle the trueth, or reuerse the worde, which God hath established in his Church: and the constant auouching thereof against earthly States & powers, hath cost vs, as you can not choose but knowe, many thousande mens liues: Yet this is no let,1. Iohn. 4. Mat. 7. but Princes, as well as other priuate persons, may trie spirits, and beware false Prophets. And this, I trust, you dare not impugne, that Princes may doe that for Christ which you defend they must do for Antichrist: graunt vs that, we require no more.

Chrysostome is the last of the seuen. Christ, sayth he, when he willed Peter to feede his sheepe,Lib. 2. de Sacer. cōmitted the charge of (them) to Peter, & Peters successors. Meaning by Peters successors not onely the bishops of Rome, but him selfe and all other Bishops,Ibidem. as appeareth by his owne words in the same place. This was Christes purpose at that time (when he sayd feede my sheepe) to teach Pe­ter, and the rest of vs, howe well he loued his Church, that therefore we also should take the charge and care of the same Church with al our hearts. Ambro. de dig­nitat. sacerdo­ [...]ali, Cap. 2. Am­brose extendeth the wordes of Christ in like manner to al Bishops & preachers. It was thrise repeated by the Lord, feed my sheepe. Which sheepe, & which flocke not onely Peter receiued then in charge, but he with vs, and wee all with him receiued them in cure. August. de agone Christi, Cap. 30. And so doth Austen, When it is said to Peter, it is said to all: Louest thou me? Feede my sheepe.

That women may not vndertake this charge to feede Christs sheepe, it was needelesse to cite Chrysostome, S. Paul sayde it before in other wordes, and [Page 11] wee bee farre from any such follie. These bee the maine and mightie proofes wherewith you thought to shake the Princes seate, which conclude vtterly no­thing against that we defende, nor against that her Maiestie claymeth or vseth.

The rest of your authorities, which be sixe, touch not vs at all, nor any thing in question betwixt you and vs:Epist. 57. a [...] Damas. saue the last, where S. Hierom writeth to Da­masus, He that gathereth not with thee, scattereth. Which words we graunt were very true, when S. Hierom spake them, for that Damasus rightly pro­fessed the Christian fayth, which the Bishop of Rome now doeth not: and by ga­thering with him, is ment no subiection to him, but a felowship with him in tea­ching the same trueth, and keeping the bande of peace, which is common to all Christians.

Your fift chapter,The 5. Chap. of the Apolog. which should cleere you from false doctrine, and proue you to be good Catholiques, hath in all but one Section of twentie sixe lines to that purpose: the rest is a desperate discourse of your owne, full of your bolde asserti­ons & vayne presumptions, without scripture, or father, that helpeth you, or hin­dereth vs.Enchiri. 110. & haeresi. 53. Contra Vigi­lantium. Lib. 6. contra Iulianum. In 10. Cap. ad Hebreos. Lib. 7. ind. 2. Epist. 109. & 53. Lib. 1. de paenit. Cap. 2. For prayer for the dead, you alledge S. Augustine; for honouring of Kelikes and Pilgrimage, S Hierom; for vocation of Saints, worshipping the crosse, and memories of Martyrs, S. Cyril; for the sacrifice of the Masse, Saint Chrysostome; for the corporall presence of Christ in the Sacrament, the Late­ran Councell for Images, the second Councel of Nice, Gregorie to Serenus, and Damascene: for the power of Priesthood to remit sinnes, S. Ambrose. A weake foundation to beare so great a frame.

Cyril, Chrysostome, and Ambrose in the places which you quote, teache no­thing lesse than those errors and abuses which you mayntaine. The seconde Councell of Nice was very neere 800, the Lateran Councell aboue a thou­sand yeres after Christ, both too yong to make any doctrine Catholique. Gre­gorie liketh that stories should be painted in the Church, but adoration of thē he detesteth, which yet that wicked Councell of Nice, did after establish. Damas­cene, you may take backe againe: his credite is so smale, that we neede not answere him.

S. Hierom is hoat against Vigilantius, and so hoat, that Erasmus is faine to say,Argumentum Epistolae ad­uersus Vigi­lantium. Conuiciis debacchatur Hieronimus: Hierom rayleth without measure: Yet the most honour that he gaue to the bodies or ashes of Martyrs, by whom God after their deaths wrought great miracles, was to be fairely wrapt, and honest­ly kept in their Chappels: The tending of tapers, and setting vp of waxe can­dles before them, he denieth to be vsed in the Church: in other places if any such thing were,Hierom aduer­sus Vigilant. he imputeth it to the vnskilfulnesse and simplicitie of some Lay men and deuout women, that had zeale, but not according to knowledge. What is this for your defence? You make newe Relikes, you set foorth vn­shamefast Legends, and deuise false miracles to deceiue the people: you giue them Pardons for manie thowsande thowsande yeeres: you promise them helpe in all their needes, and effect in all their desires: you make a very marte of the graces and gyftes of God, to cause men to [Page 12] runne from place to place, from Saint to Saint, from shrine to shrine, to en­crease your offerings: which wickednes if S. Hierom had seene in his time, he would haue taunted you a litle better than euer he did Vigilantius.

August. de cura pro mortuis ge­renda, ca. 1. In the prayers which were made to God at his Altar, we graunt with S. Austine, The commendation of the dead, by the custome of the Vniuersall Church, had a speciall place, but your prayer for soules in Purgatorie was ne­uer Catholique. And where you send vs to S. Austens Enchiridion ca. 110. for that kind of prayer, looke againe to the wordes, and you shall find there no cer­taine doctrine, but a doubtfull diuision, consisting of three partes, and not one of them prouing your Purgatorie.Augu. Enchir. ca. 110. When the sacrifices of the Altar, or any other almes are offered for all, that were baptized before they died: for such as are very good, they be, saith he, thankesgiuings (to God:) for those that be not al­together ill, they be propitiations (that is procuring of mercie:) for such as be very bad, though they be no helpers to the dead, they bee some comforts to the liuing: and whome they profite, they profite them thus farre, either to purchase them ful remission, or at least, more tolerable damnation. The first part of this diuision, that sacrifices for the dead, are thankesgiuings to God, is a poynt that now you can not heare of: the last, that they comfort the liuing, but helpe not the dead, by no meanes you will admit: the middle is it, that you stand on, and that is nothing but this, whom they profit, they procure either full remission, or at lest a more tolerable damnation. Where S. Austen doth not affirme which of the twaine they shall procure, but vseth a disiunctiue, and of the twaine rather enclineth to the later, as the likelier, by correcting him selfe in this wise, they shall haue remission, or at lest a more tolerable damnation. And for your better assurance that S. Austen, on whom you relie, neuer taught your Purgatorie for a matter of Catholique faith, we send you back to the same father,Augu. Enchir. ca. 69. and the same booke, the 69. chapter, where he sayth, It is not incredible, that there is some such thing after this life: and whether it be so, it may be a question, and it may be either found out, or lie hid, that some of the faithfull obteine saluation by a Purgatorie fire so much the sooner, or later, by howe much the more, or lesse they loued the transitorie goods of this life. If it may lie hid, then is it no ground of Christian faith which must be fully beleeued of all men, neither coulde the prayers of the Church depende vpon the doubtfull opinion of Purgatorie,August. de ciui­ [...]at. Dei, lib. 21. [...]a. 27. which by S. Austens owne iudgement, is superfluous to be discussed, and most dangerous to be resolued.

The rest of your places in this chapter, amounting to the number often, doe you litle good, and vs lesse harme: we receiue them without exception or distinc­tion. The words of Maximinus the Arrian you wittingly peruert to make them like ours: wherein you discouer your malice, and touch not our doctrine: for A­rius, as you may reade in that disputation,Disputat. A­thanas. contra Arium Laodic. habita. which Athanasius had with him, vpbrayded the fathers for vsing the word [...] not found in all the bookes of the new or old testament: whereas the Church of Christ alwayes professed to beleeue nothing, but what was plainely written in the sacred scriptures. The [Page 13] selfe same cauil Maximinus vrged S. Augustine with.August. contra Maximinum Arrian. Epist. lib. 10. Hae verò voces, quae ex­tra scripturam sunt, nullo casu a nobis suscipiuntur: These wordes (and not as you translate, these sayings) which are not in the scripture, by no meanes we receiue. This obiection wee grant was both foolish and hereticall, and if wee vrge you w^t any such, spare vs not. We striue with you not for names & words, but for poynts and Principles of faith, and those we say must bee proued by the scriptures.Rom. 10. S. Paul sayd so before vs, Faith is by hearing, & hearing out of the word of God. Mauger your traditions and vnwritten verities, this is a Chri­stian and Catholique position, which all the fathers confirme with one consent, as shall be shewed in place conuenient. In the meane time wee saie with Basill, that I trowe was no Arrian, Basil. sermo. de fide. Manifestus: est a fide lapsus, & crimen maximae superbiae, vel a scripto recedere, vel non scriptum admittere: It is a manifest fall from faith, and a sinne that argueth infinite pride, either to leaue that which is written, or admit that which is not written.

Your sixt chapter handleth no matter of religion,The 6. Chap­ter of the Apologie. Iren. lib. 4. ca. 32. Cyp. epist. 63. Chry. homil. 17. in Epi. ad Heb. Amb. in Psal. 38. Conc. Nic. ca. 14. Hier. epist. 1. ad Heliod. Leo. ep. 81. ca. 2. Amb. li. 5. ep. 33. Cyp. ep. 5. Au. de ciu. Dei, li. 22. ca. 8. lib. 10. conf. ca. 12.13. Euseb. in vita Const. li. 4. ca. 45. Chry. de sacerd. Amb. in 1. Tim. 4. Greg. li 2. ep. 9.93. lib. 7. ep. 63. lib. 77. ep. 57. ad 3. interrog. Aug. as being purposely made to excuse you from Treason: and hath nothing in it any way materiall, saue onely that vpon the name of Masse-priest, you fall into a great rage, and will needes proue, the Apostles themselues, & the ancient fathers of all ages were masse priests. And that you do ful clarkly. For wheresoeuer you find the word oblation or sacrifice in any father, you presently put him in the Decke for a masse-Priest. I maruaile you be not ashamed, professing so deepe knowledge, to send vs ouer such vaine trifles. The very children in England doe knowe the Lordes supper is a sacrifice of thankesgiuing, & a memoriall of Christes oblation on the crosse, dayly renewing his death in a mysterie, which is the true meaning of the twelue places that here you bring, and of twelue hundred mo, that might be brought to the like effect: but this is nothing to the sacrifice of your masse, where you pro­fesse that Christ is couered with accidents of bread and wine, and offered really with your handes to God his father for the remission of your sinnes: shewe but one father for this kinde of sacrifice, and we will agnise not onely these whome you name, but also Melchisedec and Malachie for Masse-priests.

Searching fiue hundred foure score and thirteene yeres after Christ with al diligence, you find the worde Missa twise: once in Ambrose, and once in Leo: and in a brauerie you demaund of vs, Were they Masse-priests, that sayd those mas­ses? But what if the word Missa did then not signifie the Masse, but a dismissing of the Catechists before, and of the faithful after the Lords supper: where is your great and glorious triumphe become? Looke to the fourth Counsell of Car­thage, the 84. Canon:Concil. Cartha. ginensis 4. Ca­non. 84. Let the Bishop forbid no man to enter the Church, and heare the word of God, neither Iew, Gentile, nor heretike, vsque ad missam Catechumenorum: that is, till the Catechists be sent away: not, vntil the Ca­techists masse. For they which were not yet baptized, could not be present at the ministration of the Lords supper, & therefore Missa doth signifie the dismissing of them: as the manner was in the primitiue Church to send away, first the Ca­techists, next the Repentants, and last of all to giue the faithfull leaue to depart [Page 14] when the communion was ended:I [...]e, missa est. Goe your way, depart. S [...]mo. 237. de tempore sub nomine August. Ambros. Lib. 5. Epist. 33. which three dimissions were sometime called in the plurall number, Missae, & missarum solemnia. The like phrase is elsewhere to be found in the workes of S. Austen: Post sermonem fit missa Catechumenis: After the sermon the Catechists are willed to depart: and Ambrose in the same epistle which you quote, Post lectiones atque tractatum, dimissis Catechume­nis: After the reading and expounding of the scriptures, the Catechists being demised: Where these wordes, that you sticke on, follow: Ego mansi in munere, missam facere caepi: I went forward, and sent the rest away: that might not bee partakers of the mysteries.Missam facere, not, dicere. And that missam facere is not to say masse, as you dreame, but to giue leaue to depart, the very Latine tongue woulde leade you if you were not more than froward:Masse, and yet no masse-Priests. Inter August. Epist. 31.34.35. Grego. Lib. 1. Epist. 72.86. Lib. 3. Epist. 30. Lib. 5. Epist. 6. Lib. 7. Epist. 53.126. and so may you find the word missa in Leo, Gregorie and others, and yet they no Masse-priests.

To maintaine your beades, Agnusdets, and other consecrated creatures: you note where S. Austen and Paulinus as familiar friendes, sent eche other cakes, and where Gregorie gaue some monuments of Peter, Paul, and others to Princes & Bishops, for presents. This is not answerable to your enterprise: you bring vs certaine toyes hallowed, as you say, with the Popes blessing: and where you deliuer them, you take promises, vowes and othes, that such persons shall keepe communion, and yeeld subiection to the Bishop of Rome: which is nothing els but the slocking of her Maiesties people from her, and the deuoting of them, their bodies, goods, and forces to serue the Popes turne.

That power to forgiue sinnes must bee holden in Capite of the Pope, you produce Cyprian, who saith no such thing in that place, which you cite, but only calleth the Church of Rome a principal Church, Cyprian. E­pistola 55. Leo Epist. 89. whēce vnitie among priests, (in former ages) did spring: and Leo, whose priuate affection in aduauncing his Sea, doth carie light credit in the iudgement of wise men, & is farre from a Catholique consent in the iudgement of all men: yet if hee meane as Cyprian and Austen doe,Cyprian. de v­nitate Eccles. August. in Ioh. tract. 50. Idem in Ioh. tracta. 124. when they say: Exordium ab vnitate proficiscitur vt ecclesia vna monstretur: The beginning (of this power) came from one (which was Peter) to declare the Church to bee one: Et Petrus quando claues accepit, ecclesiam sanctam (& vniuersam) significauit: ecclesia ergo, quae fundatur in Christo, claues ab eoregni caelorum accepit in Petro: Peter when he receiued the keyes signifi­ed the holy (and Vniuersall) Church: for the Church which is built vppon Christ, receiued of him the keyes of the kingdome of heauen in Peter. If this be his meaning, as it may well be, we refuse him not: and then, ab ipso, quasi quodam capite, must bee, from him the first that had it. For caput is either the chiefe, or the first: otherwise that the Apostles held their function, and power, vn­der, and of Peter, in capite, is a false and erroneous sense, flatly resisted by S. Paul, Gal. 2. affirming, that they which seemed to bee somewhat, (as Iames, Peter, and Iohn,) bestowed nothing on him: and refuted by our Sauiour him selfe, where hee sayth:Iohn. 20. As my father sent mee, so I (not Peter) sende you. The rest of your authorities, be they scriptures or fathers, impeach not vs, nor our doctrine, but are such as we may well admit, without any doubt or scruple.

[Page 15]Your seuenth and last Chapter hath neither text nor title,The 7. Chap. of the Apolo. that is any way preiudicial to vs. We grant your allegations, & deny your applicatiōs. Martyrs be glorious witnesses of Gods trueth, & their death is pretious in his sight: but flatter not your selues, you be no Martyrs. You bend your selues against God, and his annoynted, in a wicked and desperate quarell, & receiue your desertes for preparing the subiects of this Realme by colour of religion to take her Ma­iestie for no Queene, when the Pope shall say the word; and to be ready to re­fuse their allegeance, and ioyne with any straunger that will inuade the land.

This is the whole furniture of your Apologie:Not one place more in all the Apologie touching vs than here is answered. to my knowledge I haue not omitted one place that maketh any thing for you. The rest is a fardle of phrases, shadowed with faire pretences and plausible perswasiōs, fit to preuaile with worldly minds, that neuer tasted the trueth: which if we should seeke to re­pell with like maner and order of writing, we should but wast paper, and wea­rie the reader: and therefore if you list to discusse the Principall intents of your Apologie, more exactly than hitherto you haue, I will ioyne this issue with you, that, notwithstanding all you haue sayd, or can say, you be neither good subiects, nor Catholiques: If not, I will referre the iudgement of your proofes to y^e lear­ned, and leaue you to God.

We know our cause to be so good, that wee neede not shrinke from any triall.

Then take what helpe you can of your Apologie to defend your selues, and as wee passe through your chapters, obiect you that which you thinke strongest. Your vauntes and vanities I will not answere, but onely such things as bee most materiall.

Content with that.

And as occasion is offered I will shewe, that you neither obey God, nor your Prince.

Do what you can, we feare you not.

If you thinke any thing worth your paynes, in your first chapter, you were best begin.

Haue wee not good cause to finde our selues agreeued,Apolog. Cap. [...]. Sect. 2. that so many strange nations hauing their Churches with freedome to serue God after their man­ner in our Country, onely Catholiques (which in our fathers dayes had all, & for whom and by whome all Churches and Christianitie arose) can by no intercession of forraine Potentates, nor no sighes nor sorrowes of innumerable most loyall subiects, obtayne one place in the whole land to serue their Lord God after the rites of all other good Chri­stian Princes, Priests, and people of the worlde?

If you meane that strangers haue leaue to professe diuers religions in this Realme,Strangers haue not di­uers religions in this Realm. you wittingly slaunder vs against your owne conscience: for in England the people both strange and liege, worship God the father in spirite & trueth, according to the Gospel of his sonne, agreeing together in the substance of one fayth, and the right order of Christes sacraments: onely straungers are suffered in their Churches to vse that tongue, which they best vnderstand, as S. Paul appointeth:1. Cor. 14. and to retaine such ceremonies of their owne, as bee nei­ther against faith, nor aduerse to good maners: and therefore by S. Austens iudgement goe for INDIFFERENT, Epist. 118. and may bee borne in Christian vnitie without offence or confusion. But if this bee your meaning, that where straun­gers haue fréedome to serue God, after the same manner that wee doe, [Page 16] you should also be licenced to bring in your Masse, notwithstanding it be quite repugnant to the seruice of God, which this land receiueth. Your consequent is more than absurd: because their faith and religion agreeth with ours, yours is cleane contrarie.

Next you sorow to see no mediation of friends, no threats of foes, no tumults at home, no despites abroade, able to withdrawe the Princes hart from liking and louing the trueth: but the godly reioyce to see so perfect a mirrour of faith and deuotion in a Christian Queene, that shee rather chooseth to suffer your wrongs and abide your reproches with patience, than to steppe one foote from that Lord which hath graciously blessed, and mightily preserued her person, Scepter, and people from the iawes of his, and her enemies.

Apol. chap. 1. sect. 2.And where no Iewe, no Turke, no Pagan, can by the law of God, nature or na­tions, he forced from the manner, and perswasion of his owne Sect and seruice to any o­ther which by promise or profession he or his progenitors neuer receiued: onely we (that neither in our owne persons, nor in our forefathers, euer gaue consent to any other faith or worship of God, but haue in precise termes by protestation and promise bounde our selues in Baptisme to the religion, fayth, and seruice Catholique alone) are against di­uine and humane Lawes, and against the Protestants owne doctrine in other nations, not onely bereaued of our Christian dew in this behalfe, but are forced by manifold co-actions to these rites which we neuer knew nor gaue our consent vnto.

Papists may be forced to trueth.Fewe men without your cunning, could huddle so many, so manifest vntruthes in one sentence. No Iew, no Turke, say you, may be forced from his religion. If that were so, what maketh it for your defence, which chalenge both the names and roomes of Christian men, and are in respect thereof, for iust cause, required to performe that in deede, which you pretend in woorde, and by moderate correction driuen to keepe the Christian faith, which in Baptisme you professed. For heretikes of al sects and sortes may be compelled to followe truth, though infidels might not: and so your inference fayleth when you say, no law forceth Iewes or Pagans from their perswasion, therefore not Christians: nay rather, if we graunt Iewes and Turkes excusable for these two reasons, lacke of knowledge, and want of promise: certainely Papists being neither void of the first, nor free from the last, may, yea must, bee compelled of Christian ma­gistrates, for dread of punishment, tempered with good instruction, to for­sake their heresies and forbeare their idolatries, wherewith Christ is dishonou­red, and his trueth defaced.

Forcing to re­ligion with­out former promis.As the ioynts of your argument bee loose, so bee the parts vntrue. For king Darius seeing Daniel strangely deliuered from the Lions denne made this de­cree, that all people, nations, and languages in the worlde should reuerence and feare the God of Daniel. Daniel. 6. Likewise the king of Niniueth at the first de­nouncing of Gods wrath by Ionas immediatly with the consent of his Counsel caused this proclamation to be made through the Citie,Ionas 3. that man and beast shoulde put on sackcloth, and cry mightily to God, and euery man turne from his euill way. Lo, Sir, two kings precisely commaunding their subiects, [Page 17] (and therefore readie to punish the refusers) without delay to worship a strange and vnknowen God, (albeit the true God) whome neither they, nor their forefa­thers made promise to serue; and yet I thinke, you will not say they brake the Law of God, nature, or nations in so doing. S. Austen will assure you, that the King of Niniueh did God good seruice by compelling the whole Citie to please God. Episto. 50. A thirde instance for this matter is the calling of Paul; first as a Iew, Acts. 9. and so within the limits of your assertion: then strooken with blindnes, & a­mased with terror from heauen; and therefore compelled to Christianitie by cor­poral violence, y touched Paul neerer, than impouerishments or imprisonments, wherewith you find your selues greeued. Behold (saith that learned father) in Paul, August. E­pistola 50. Christ first compelling, afterward teaching; first striking, then comfor­ting; and hee that entred into the Gospel, constrained with bodyly punish­ment, laboured more than all those, that were called only by mouth.

I might refel your idle florish by the later examples of Polonia, Munster. Cos­mogra, lib. 4. fol. 894.902. Idem lib. 3. fol. 719.743. Russia, Lithu­ania, forced at the commaundement of their rulers to forsake their auncient I­doles, and receiue baptisme: By the long and sharpe warres, which diuers good Princes maintained of purpose to compell the Saxons and Vandales to y^e faith: By the sore vexations and afflictions of the Iewes in euery Christian common wealth: Al which, both old and new, first & last, serue to conuince that Pagans & Iewes haue bene forced by rigor of lawes, and other meanes, to yeeld to y^e truth, without any former promise, or farther knowledge, which you stifly deny: but as I said this is not our question. You are no Iewes, no Pagans, but in shew Catho­liques, in deed heretikes: you were baptized, you chalēge an interest in y^e Church & Sacraments: by reason of this your first promise, and next your outward pro­fession of Christes name, you stand in duetie bound, and of right may be compel­led to serue God, not as your owne fansies perswade you, nor as the Church of Rome leadeth you; but according to the prescript of his word, and that tenor of faith, which the Prophets and Apostles did teach.

We bound our selues in precise termes by protestation in Baptisme to the reli­gion, Apolog. Cap. 1. sect. 2. fayth, and seruice Catholique alone: other faith and worship of God wee neuer con­sented vnto, neither in our owne persons, nor in our forefathers.

This is your common charme wherewith you bewitch many simple soules, bearing them in hand, that in Baptisme they vowed to professe your Italian religion: which God knoweth is nothing so. For in whose name were you baptized, Philander? In Pius the fift, or Gregorie the thirteenth? I thinke you were not, I knowe you should not;1. Cor. 1. no not in Peters, or Pauls, but in Christes alone. Then stande you bound by baptisme to yeelde faith and obedience to no person or place, but onely to Christ the first author, and ordayner of this sacrament.

Preach ye the Gospel, Mark. 16. saith Christ, He that beleeueth and is baptized shal­be saued. Al men boūd by Baptisme vnto truth. What els must you preach, what els must they beleeue, that will be baptized, but the Gospel? ergo the preacher and the beleeuer, that is the baptiser and the baptised are bound precisely to the Gospel.Gal. 3. All yee, saith Paul, that are baptised into Christ, haue put on Christ, and are the sonnes of God by faith [Page 18] in Christ Iesus [hauing] one Lord, Ephes. 4. one faith, one Baptisme. Perceiue you not, that in baptisme, which no Protestation of yours can frustrate, the beleeuers do put on Christ their Lorde, not his pretended vicar; and are made the sonnes of God, not the vassals of Rome, by faith, which dependeth neither on man nor An­gell, but directly belongeth to God and his word?1. Peter. 1. Acts. 8. Rom. 10. If thou beleeue with al thine heart, sayth Philip to the conuerted Eimuch, thou mayest be [baptized.] Now fayth commeth of hearing, and (that) hearing of the worde of God, as Paul witnesseth. So that when you were Christned you made promise to beleeue no­thing saue the word of God, whereby faith is engendred and nourished.

Iohn. 10. My sheepe heare my voyce, sayth our sauiour, a stranger they follow not, but flee from him. And in baptisme you receiued no mans marke but his, & for that cause stand bound to regard no mans voyce but his alone. Doubt you this? Then view the Commission that Christ sent you to baptise with.Mat. 28. Goe teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the father, & the sonne, and the holy ghost, teaching them to obserue all the things, which I haue cōmanded you. This text needeth no gloze. Baptisme bindeth no man to the Bishop or Church of Rome, but to the wil & precepts of Christ. Therfore proue your religion & ser­uice, (which you stoutly, but falsely terme Catholike) to be cōmanded by Christ, or els women & children,No man boūd to poperie by Baptisme. be they neuer so seely, wil collect by the manifest words of our sauiour, that their promise in baptisme doth streitly bind them from belee­uing your errors, & admitting your masses, vntill you shew good and effectuall warrant out of the word of God, that you do, what Christ did, and teach, what he taught;Mat. 23. Iohn. 10. Ephe. 4. Iames. 4. Esa. 55. without adding or altering any iot. For this is the duetie that baptisme requireth of vs; to beleeue no teacher but one, which is Christ; to followe no stranger, to regard & obey no Lord, or lawmaker in y^e Church, but only y^e sonne, whom the father appointed to be Master, leader, and ruler of the Gentiles.

And as for your odious outcrie, since the lawes of this Realme force you to nothing, but what is directly commanded in y^e scriptures (as by discussing your Apologie shal appeare) & you vowed, whē you were Christened, to beleeue & obey the will of God reueiled in his word: let the worlde iudge, whether your Soue­raigne offer you wrong, in seeking with milde and gentle correction to reforme your frowardnes; or you rather forgetting your promise to God, and duetie to your Prince, take the way to forsake the Christian faith, & withstand authoritie.

Apolog. Cap. 1. sect. 2. Athanas. ad solitariam vitā agentes. Hilar. ad Con­stantium Au­gustum. It is against your owne doctrine in other nations that any should be forced to religion.

When you note the places and name the men, I will an­swere you more directly, than I can at this present to so generall an obiection. Howbeit with what face can you reproue the sober and moderate proceedings of his Realme, which reuenge the smalest contempt of your idle ceremonies with vnsufferable torments? for shame rebuke not that in others which in your selues is most rife. But graunt some wel disposed persons happily warned you, that true religion vseth to perswade, not to compell: that God did rather teach than exact the knowledge of himselfe, How some haue misly­ked forcing to religion. and winning credite to his pre­cepts by the strangenes of his heauēly wōders, despised the wil that is forced [Page 19] to confesse him: Their purpose was to moue your clergy to delight rather in teaching than in tormenting their brethren.Grego. Episto. lib. 2. Cap. 91. They thought it a strange and new kind of preaching (for bishops) to driue men to beleeue with whipping, as Bonner did: or else they detested your violent and furious maner of compulsion, which neither tooke pains to persuade, nor alowed mē time to learn those things which you forced them to beleeue. They knewe, that if such as wander astray, should be terrified, & not instructed, it might be coūted a wicked ouerruling. August. Epist. 48. Or last of al, if they spake resolutely without limitation, they were nus [...]ed with ouermuch pitie, which also beguiled S. Austen at y^e first, in the selfe same point, vntil he tooke better aduisemēt.August ibidē. I was once so minded, saith he, that I thought no man ought to be forced to Christian vnitie, but that we shoulde deale by perswading, striue by disputing, conquere by reasoning, least they prooued dissembling Catholiques, whom we knewe professed heretiques.

Our doctrine which you say,What we teach of for­cing to reli­gion. maketh so much for you, is this: that your Pre­lats should not make it their occupation to persecute to death al sorts, ages and sexes, which refuse your schole trickes, or reiect the dregs of your Clementines and Decretals; but rather with mildnes & patience seeke to recouer such as you thinke lost: yet in Princes who beare the sword, and are Gods Liuetenants not only to procure peace betweene men, but also by lawes to maintaine [...]igiō to­wards God, we neither did nor do dispraise moderate correction when neede so requireth: only we would haue such as stray from truth,August epist. 127. Idem contra Cresconium lib. 3. Cap. 50. Idem contra literas Petilia. lib. 2. cap. 86. Chry. in Matth. homil. 47. Codicis. lib. 1. tit. 5. de haereti­cis & Mani­cheis. Idem leg. Arriani. August. de hae­resibus, haere. 46. Saint Austen defendeth the same. August. Epist. 48. Idem Epist. 50. The Donatists would haue none com­pelled to faith. corrected, not murde­red. For it neuer pleased any good men in the Catholique Church that here­tikes should be put to death, as Austen affirmeth. Many lawes were made to punish them, but no Princes law commanded thē to be slaine. Yea the Lorde doth not forbid to skatter the couents of heretikes, to stop their mouthes, to barre them freedom of speach: but to murder and kil them, that he forbiddeth saith Chrisostome. And therefore your tyranous & barbarous hauocke of olde, yong; men, women; learned, vnlearned; we detest with heart, and disswade with tongue, wishing al Princes to folow the steps of Gratian, Theodosius, Arcadi­us, Honorius, & other Christian Emperours, who with conuenient sharpnes of positiue laws amerced, banished, & diuersly punished heretikes, yet none receiued iudgement of death, except only y^e Maniches, whose monstrous blasphemies in agnising y^e deuil for a god, & beastly defiling y^e sacred Eucharist deserued no lesse.

Such manifold coactions decreed by vertuous Princes, when the Donatists rayled at for life, the learned & catholike father S. Austen earnestly defended to be lawful, & highly cōmended in sundrie places. Thinkest thou (saith he to Vin­centius) no man ought to be forced to righteousnes, whē as thou readest that the master said to his seruants: Compel al that you find to come in: and also that Paul was forced to receiue & embrace the truth by the great and violent cō ­pulsiō of Christ, except thou iudge goods & landes dearer to men than their eyes? Where is nowe (sayth hee to Bonifacius) that, which these [Donatists] harp at so much? it is free for a man to beleue or not to beleue▪ what violence did Christ vse? whom did he compel? behold Paul (for an example:) Let them marke in him, Christ first cōpelling, & afterward teaching; first striking, & thē [Page 20] comforting. Let them not mislike that they be forced, but examine whereto they be forced. Ibidem. And citing that part of the second Psalme, Be wise ye kings, vnderstand ye that iudge the earth, serue the Lord in feare: how do (saith he) kings serue the Lord in feare, but when they forbid and punish with a religi­ous seueritie those things which are done against the commandements of God: as Ezekiah did serue him, by destroying the groues and temples buylt against the precepts of God: as Iosiah did in like manner: as the king of Nini­ueh did, forcing the whole Citie to please God: as Nabuchodonosor did, restrai­ning all his subiects from blaspheming God, with a dreadfull lawe.

Gaudentius reason, that the peace of Christ inuited such as were willing, but forced no man vnwilling,Idem contra 2. Gaudentij Episto. Lib. 2. cap. 17. the same father refuteth in this wise: Where you thinke that none must be forced to truth against their wils, you be deceiued, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God, which maketh those wil­ling [at last] which were vnwilling [at first.] Did the Niniuites repent against their willes, because they did it at the compulsion of their king? What nee­ded the kings expresse commandement, that all men should humbly submit themselues to God, but that there were some amongst them which neither would haue regarded nor beleeued Gods message, had they not bene terri­fied by the kings edict? This Princely power and authoritie giueth many mē occasion to be saued, which though they were violently brought to the feast of the great housholder, yet being once cōpelled to come in, they find there good cause to reioyce that they did enter [against their willes.] When Peti­lian obiected that no man must be forced by lawes to doe well or to beleeue, S. Austen replieth:Idem contra literas Peti­liani lib. 2. Cap. 83. To faith in deed may no man vnwilling bee forced, but yet by Gods iustice, or rather mercy. The breath of faith is chastened with the rod of affliction. Because the best thinges are freely chosen with good lyking, must not therefore ill deedes be punished by syncere Lawes? You be not forced to doe well by these lawes that are made against you, but for­bidden to doe euill. Preposterous were discipline to reuenge your ill liuing: but when you first contemne the doctrine that teacheth you to liue well. And euen they which make lawes to bridle your headynes, are they not those, which beare the sworde, as Paul speaketh not without cause, being Gods ministers and executors of wrath on him that doth ill?

Who list to be farther satisfied, that Christian Princes may compel their sub­iects to the true worship of God prescribed in his word, and punish the refusers, let him read at large the places aboue cited, or shortly consider that the spirit of God cōmendeth king Iosiah, 2. Cor. 34. Iosiah com­mended for compelling Israel to serue God. for making all Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant, which he renewed with God and COMPELLING ALL THAT WERE FOVND IN ISRAEL TO SERVE THE LORD THEIR GOD. So that you might haue well spared your wanton complaint to God, and kept in your Crocodiles teares. Your Soueraigne doeth nothing against you, but what is agreeable to Gods and mans lawe, consonant to the doctrine of our Churhes, & much easier than that which your selues practised on others: [Page 21] neither is this our question, what rites you consented vnto, but what fayth Christ deliuered his Church in the writings of his Apostles and Euangelists: for to that euery man which is baptised may bee lawfully forced by the Prin­ces authoritie, let him and his forefathers assent to what they list, except you can proue that baptisme serueth no longer for a sacrament of Christian religion, but goeth now for a Romish recognisance.

Our griefe of heart is much encreased, Apolog. cap. 1. sect. 3. either when we looke into other States and Countries, as Germania, Suitzerland, Suecia, Boemia, and the like, where though there haue bene great alterations in religion these late yeeres, yet lightly none bee for­ced so, but if they can not haue the exercise of their profession in one torritorie, Canton, towne, Church or Parish, yet they may haue it neere them in an other, as also in all the Prouinces and Kingdomes subiect either to the Persians or the Turke at this day. The old Christians be permitted to vse freely their deuotions: or when we looke backe to the like distresses of Catholikes in old time when certaine Emperours were chiefe fautors of Arianisme and other Sectes, who yet were often enduced of their naturall benignitie to yeeld certaine Churches or at lest Oratories in Churchyards and other places ad­ioyning, Socrat. li. 2. ca. 18. & li. 4. ca. 12.16. Niceph. li. 11. ca. 49.50. Lib. 5. de Basil. trad. Two religions in one Realm. for the Catholique seruice in their dominions. So did Constantius the Arian Emperour & Valens graunt to S. Athanasius and his followers in Alexandria: which Valens God plagued afterward, because he would not suffer the same at Antioche. Va­lentinian also the yonger profered the like to S. Ambrose in Millan.

Are you well in your wits to lament the lacke of that in this Realme, which God in plaine words detesteth, and with sore plagues reuengeth? Haue you forgotten how sharply king Achab and the commons of Israel were repro­ued of Elias for that error? He did not say, why permit you not those that will to the Lord,1. King. 18. those that list, to Baal; but how long halt you betweene two sides or opiniōs? If the Lord be God, follow him [forsaking al other,] if Baal be (God) get you after him. Psal. 18. Esa. 48. Deut. 10. Since then it is confessed on both partes, yours and ours, that there can bee no God saue the Lord, and hee neuer ment to surrender any piece of his glorie, but is so ielous of it, that hee wil be serued, and onely serued with all our heart, mind and strength: these things I say being out of question, I recken it can not stande with a Princes duetie to reuerse this heauenly decree (THOV SHALT VVORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD, Matth. 4. AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOV SERVE) with establishing two religions in one Realme: the first authorized by Christ & bequeathed in his testament to the Church: the next inuented of Antichrist and flatly repugnant to the propheticall and Apostolicall scriptures. For if God be trueth, Psal. 31. & Iohn 14. Iohn 8. they which presume to worship him with lies (as in contrarie faith must needes come to passe) serue nowe not God, but the deuill, a lyer himselfe and the father of lyes: whose seruice no Christian Prince may so much as tolerate.

What are (saith Vincentius) strange Gods but strange errors, Vincentius Li­rinens. aduersus haereses. Heresie is an inward ido­latrie. which y^e scrip­tures so cal figuratiuely, for that heretiques reuerence their opinions no lesse than the Gentiles their Gods? By the which wee learne that the first precept forbidding moe Gods than one barreth all other seruices of the same God, saue [Page 22] that which himselfe hath appointed for himselfe.August. de ve­ra religione Cap. 38. It is the vilest & basest kinde of idolatrie, when men worship their owne fansies, obseruing that for a religion which their deceiued and swelling minds imagine. Then may not Princes winke at corrupt & vitious religion, which is an inward & ghostly wor­ship of Idoles,Matt. 6. seeing no man, & therefore no Prince, can serue two masters: & the seruice that Princes yeelde Christ, in respect of their royall vocation, consist­eth in making lawes for Christ, which if they doe likewise for Antichrist, it can not be salued, but that they serue God and Mammon, or rather cease to bee the seruaunts of Christ in that they renounce their master by seruing his aduersa­rie. Nowe what accompt God will exact for his name blasphemed, his sonne refused, his sacraments prophaned, his word exiled: and what answere must be made for the ruine of faith, haruest of sinne, murder of soules consequent alwaies to the publique freedome of heresies, I leaue to bee fully considered and wisely preuented by Christian Magistrates, who must thinke that silence prouoketh, & sufferance boldeneth their subiectes to forsake God and his Church, euen as in ciuill affaires the slacking of iustice doth maintaine disorder.

Apolog. Cap. 1. sect. 7.So that in this point your defender betrayeth his vnsetled humor, which ad­monisheth her Maiestie that she must answere (to God) not onely for things done by her commandement and knowledge, but for whatsoeuer is done vniustly by her name or authoritie, though she neuer knew thereof: And yet here find great fault, that her Highnes (respecting her duetie to God and accompt that she must make) denieth to beare the burden of your wicked abuses and poysoned errors: which no prince can auoyde, that permitteth your Masses and licenceth your rites, because the seeing and suffering your impieties is a plaine consent and in manner an open communion with your vnfruitful workes of darknes.

We may not imitate exam­ples, except they be good.To couer the shamefulnes of your demaund you produce certaine kingdoms and Countries affected in religion otherwise than you, neuerthelesse content to suffer your seruice within their dominions. If it were so, what inferre you thence? that wee safely may doe the like? Your consequent is nothing worth: their doings can be no discharge for vs: we may not imitate the vices, but y^e ver­tues of good men. First proue they do well, then vrge their example. Your soue­raigne perceiuing by Gods law, what euery Prince ought to doe, regardeth not what other Princes please to doe: deseruing thereby the more thanks with God, and praise with men, for that in guiding her people she rather embraceth Chri­stian pietie, than irreligious policie.

No newes to see diuers religions in diuers states.But in deede you doe the Germanes and Heluetians wrong, to quote their names for tolerating two religions. The reformed Churches and States there bee so farre from admitting the full Dose of your heresies, that by no meanes they can digest one dramme of your ceremonies: the rest I thinke persisting in ignorance, retaine your faith in y^e same fashion they were wont. Amongst whom because many Dukes, Landgraues, Marquesses, Counties, yea Bishops, Ba­rons, Abbots and Gentlemen haue regall iurisdiction within their precincts, it is no newes to see many lawes vnder many Lordes, and in diuers regiments [Page 23] diuers religions. As for the kings of Suetia, Bohemia, Polonia, (not able to re­duce their Countries to the profession of one faith) neither we may reproue thē, as negligent, nor you can alledge them as indifferent: since not their owne fault but other mens force keepeth thē from attempting any redresse by their prince­ly power, which the nobles restraine and Commons receiue with this prouiso, that their accustomed freedome of conscience bee no way prohibited or inter­rupted.

Howbeit this kind of dealing in my iudgement is very captious. When you should exemplifie two religions vnder one Magistrate, you tell vs of seuerall rulers bent to maintaine their seuerall faiths: in steede of shewing some that be willing to ioyne falsehoode with trueth, you repeat such as can not auoyde that confusiō. We looked for Princes which at least had bene Christians, you make your supplie with infidels and heretiques. To passe the loosenes of your first al­legations, what meaneth the lewdnes of your latter examples? Is your cun­ning so small or purpose so vile, that you bring Pagans and Arians to counte­nance your intention? What follie, what madnes was it for you to thinke that a Prince furnished with so rare gifts of wisedome, learning and vertue, woulde swarue from the steps of the famous and worthie kinges of Iudah to bee sorted with Saracens:Saracens & Arians vn­fit exam­ples for Chri­stians. Psal. 16. Dauids zeale. and repeale the lawes of religious and auncient Emperours, to take part with the chiefest vpholders of Arianisme? For if God him self had not decided the case, but examples of men might beare some sway, King Dauid was so farre from suffering the worshippe of any strange God within his Realme that he protesteth, Their offerings of blood will I not offer, neither make mē ­tion of their names with my lippes. When would he think you confirme their honour and seruice with his royall authoritie that thus disdayned them commō humanitie? The good kings of Iudah were fauoured and blessed of God for walking in the wayes of Dauid their father, and purging the lande from all sa­crifices and ceremonies not prescribed by Moses Law: contrariwise Salomon was reiected, for admitting other Gods to be serued within his dominiōs besids the God of Israel, Salomons doubling with God. though this toleration were graunted in respect of his owne wiues that were strangers, and Ieroboams politike deuise to worship the same God in Dan and Bethel after a newe manner turned to the destruction of him selfe and his posteritie.

Which feareful effects of God wrath made Constantine to decree,Christian Princes could suffer no heresie to be publike­ly professed. Eusebi. de vita Constant. lib. 3. Cap. 63. Socrat. lib. 5. Cap. 2. Codicis 1. tit. 5. lege omnes. that al tē ­ples of heretikes should bee without any denial ouerthrowen: & in no place publike or priuate, from that day forward should their assēblies be suffered. Iouianus refused to gouer [...]e those which were not found in faith. I saith he, that am a Christiā, can not become your Emperour that are the disciples of Iuliā: a renegate from Christ: Gratian at his first entrie finding al places ful of Arians & the lawes of Valens his vncle making for them, fearing some generall tumult if he should presētly distresse so many, gaue leaue, that euery Religiō might haue Churches & Oratories with freedom & immunitie. But being once selted, & ioyned with Theodosius, he cōmanded that al heresies should keepe silēce for [Page 24] euer, as interdicted by Gods and mans law: that none should any longer presume to teach or learne prophane doctrine. The same prohibition did Arcadius and Honorius continue with great seueritie:Ibidem leg. Cuncti. Let all heretickes vn­derstand that all places must be taken from them as well Churches & other open places of resort, as priuate houses: in all which let them be debarred from seruice both by night and by daie: the (Lord) deputie to be fined an hundred pounds, if (he) permit any such thing in sight or in secret. Theodo­sius the yonger, & Valentinian his cosin comprising in a long beadrole sundrie sorts of hereticks,Ibidem leg. Ariani. appoint that no where within the Romane Empire their assemblies or praiers be suffered: & that all lawes made to prohibite their meetings should be reuiued, & stand good euerlastingly. These we take to be meeter Presidents for Christian Princes than Turks, Persians, and Arians, not worthy to be named in the Church of God, much lesse to be followed.

No more would the Arians. Four stories wrested by the Ies.But imagine the credit of your Arian Emperours were lesse than it is, why should you peruert their actions? why depraue you foure stories in sixe lines? Constantius & Valens were not enduced, as you pretend, of their naturall beni­gnitie, to yeeld Athanasius a Church in Alexandria: they were compelled much against their wils, of necessitie to suffer that, which of curtesie they would neuer haue consented vnto. For Constans the West Emperour denounced open hostilitie to Constantius his brother if Athanasius were not restored. Socr. lib. 2. Cap. 18. He, saith Socrates, driuen to this extremitie, was aduised by the Bishops of his owne faction, Socra. li. 4. cap. 16. rather to grant Athanasius the regiment of a Church than to feele the smart of ciuill warres: and Valens knowing that an infinite number in Aegypt and Alexandria fauoured Athanasius, and fearing least a sedition kindled in those partes (the people being vehement and fierce by nature) might indanger his state, ceased from molesting him and his followers. These things expressed in your Author you purposely skip, vrging the facts & dissembling the causes.

Niceph. li. 11. cap. 49. Idem lib. 11. cap. 50.With like boldnesse you falsifie the reason, why Valens was afterward pu­nished. It is true that he did teare the supplication of Terentius his Captaine, requesting one church for the Catholiks at Antioch. It is also true that his ar­mie was ouerthrown, & himselfe terriblie cōsumed in fire by the Gothes: but that he was therfore plagued because he would not suffer two faithes to be plāted in Antioch, that is your own surmise. Nicephorus hath no such circūstāce. Nei­ther did Valētiniā profer y^e like to S. Ambrose. Lib. epistolarū 5. oratione con­tra Auxentiū. S. Ambrose chooseth ra­ther to yeeld his life, than one of his Churches to the Arrian seruice. You wrest the story frō his right course to serue your purpose: but he required Ambrose to diliuer vp a church in Millā, to the which he with other Arians would resort. To this Ambrose made answere: If I be forced [from my Church] I can not resist, I wil neuer consent to yeeld my right. Naboth defended his vine with his blood, shal I betray the Church of Christ? [Valentinian] shall rather take from me my life than my faith. And for ought that I see, y^e constant refusall of this graue, learned & godly Bishop withstanding to death the toleration of two religions in one Citie, doth preiudice your assertiō more than the demand of a rash yong Arian cā further it.

[Page 25]If you tell vs, that your Catholike seruice may be suffered in this Realme, notwithstanding both Gods and mans lawes banish hereticall assemblies, then you recant the permission of two contrarie faithes in one Realme, and resume the case which lieth in question betwixt vs; fondly supposing your selues to bee right Catholikes, and those that mislike you, to be condemned hereticks; which is still denied by vs, and of your part neuer yet proued. Athanasius and Am­brose were Catholikes in deede,Athanasius & Ambrose were Catho­likes: and therefore Pa­pists be not. but not acquainted with your worshipping of Images, your adoring the Sacrament, your praying in a strange tongue, your changing the Lords supper into priuate Masses: the rest of your impieties they neuer hard, they neuer taught: & therefore till you can make good proofe that your faith and religion agreeth with theirs, they standing by your owne con­fession for Catholiks, you must of consequent, as differing from them in manie substantiall points of doctrine, be reputed for hereticks.

Which only grace of our Prince if we might haue obtained, Apol. Cap. 1. Sect. 4. no pleasure, profit, or preferment that the world beside yeeldeth in any part of Christēdom should haue kept vs out of our deerely beloued countrie so long, for whose saluation, and so much libertie of conscience as is mentioned, we haue often wished diuerse of our persons in perpetuall prison, for pledge and warrant of the peaceable and loyall demenor of our brethren the Catholickes, and for securitie of the state, whereof hir wise Counsellers haue alwayes in such cases greatest regard. But neither this durst our Catholike brethren demand in their manifold feares, doubts and disgraces at home, nor we in such suspition and misconstruction of all our actions, could euer with hope attempt it abroade. And, alas, much lesse then the graunt of publike places for exercise of our auntient religion, would haue giuen vs infinite contentment of the Catholikes within, and haue called home most of them abroad, when both sortes would haue counted it a singuler grace, during the distresse of these dayes, to haue had by permission, pardon conniuence, their soule rights (without which men perish doubtlesse euerlastingly in ther priuate houses and cham­bers, yea in prisons, in the closest and least offensiue manner in the world: as the Apostles and Confessours did often in the primitiue Church, Cyprian. Epist. 5. Niceph. lib. 9. cap. 23. and S. Cyprian testifieth that some did in his time, and S. Anastasius him selfe did with the Catholiks in Antioch.) From all which, being by rigour of penall statutes, diligent inquirie of temporall Offi­cers, watchfulnesse of ministers, spies, and promotors, continually restrained, and by them often chased from their houses, spoiled of their goods, disgraced and discouraged in all their affaires, many thousandes, yea the farre greater part of hir Maiesties sub­iects languish awaie in sorrow and sadnesse irremediable.

You departed this Countrie neither expecting hir Maiesties leaue, nor regarding hir lawes,The wise de­maundes of the Iesuites. and would you now be fet home with a triumphe iniu­rious to God, infamous to the Land, dangerous to the Prince? No man asketh of his equall anie thing but that which is honest and safe for the graunter: onely the Iesuites step foorth confidently, to demaund at their Soueraignes handes, no lesse than the manifest breach of Gods law, ioyned with the subuersion of hir royal estate. For how displeasant is it to God, that light should be matched with darknesse, and Christ yoked with Antichrist? And how pernicious it is for hir [Page 26] Maiesties quiet and happie continuance, to suffer him, that hath alreadie cursed hir person, remoued hir crowne, discharged hir subiectes, inuaded hir dominiōs (whose seedmen, and sworne legates ye be) to steale from hir the peoples harts vnder a clowde of Catholike religion and fained deuotion, the most honorable and wise Sages of this Realme so well conceiue, that I gesse you shall haue much to do, with all your colourable pretences and eloquent florishes to shadow the clearnesse of their long and grounded experience.

To salue this sore, we shall haue you foorthcomming for warrant that your brethren shall vse loyall and peaceable behauiour. Were this contention for earth­ly, not heauenly things; and did it concerne not Christs glory, but hir graces in­demnitie; what a toie this is, for a few shifting Friers to thinke them selues meete pledges for a Princes securitie?A few Friers thinke them­selues suffici­ent hostages for a Prince. Submission to God and your Prince would better become you, than this malepert kinde of prescribing, on what con­ditions you will returne, what hostages you will giue, what lawes you will ag­nise: which couenants whether you rudely purpose them, or manerly wish them, no Magistrate will receiue, least your burning harts, and vnquiet heades slide from misliking to murmuring, and so to resisting.

But your brethren are so bashfull at home, that they neuer durst demaund any such thing, & you so fearful abroad, that you could not attept it with hope: yet are you so bold that you scatter this inuectiue which chargeth the state with many vile and vnciuill outrages, and your associates of the North were so brainsicke, that putting themselues in armes against their liege Lady,The bashful­nesse of Pa­pistes. they required by solemne proclamation forsooth, not only safe-conduct for your Masse, but also y^e releasing of prisoners, vanishing of preachers, reuersing of laws & displacing of coūselers.

If the grant of publike places for our seruice seeme much we wil content our selues with chambers & prisons.

The priuatnes of the place, when the fact is il, neither acquitteth the doer frō wickednes, neither excuseth the permit­ter from negligence.Priuate per­mission of error, vnlaw­full as well as publike. No corner is so secret, no prison so close, but your impietie there suffred doth offend God, infect others, & confirme your own frowardnes. If your religion be good, why should it lacke Churches? if it be naught, why should it haue chambers? A christian Prince may not pardon or winke at your falshood. S. Paul hath put in a caueat against that sleight of permitting, which in truth is consenting.Rom. 1. Elie reproued his sonnes, yet was he sharply punished of God for his indulgence,1. Sam. 2. which is all one with your conniuence. S. Iohn saith,Iohn. Epist. 2. he that lod­geth, or biddeth an heretike God speede, is partaker of his euill works. Thē how can the Magistrate beare with your sacrilegious prophaning the Lordes supper, or licence the rest of your blasphemies, & hope to be free from your pla­gues? When Valentinian the yonger was requested to winke at the renewing of an altar for the Pagās in Rome, S. Ambrose disswadeth him in these words: All mē serue you that be Princes, Ambros. lib. 5. Epist. 30. God alloweth no conniuēce & you serue that mighty God. He that ser­ueth this God, must bring no dissimulation, no conniuence, but faithful zeale & deuotion: he must giue no kind of cōsent to the worship of Idols, & other prophane ceremonies. For God will not be deceiued, which searcheth all [Page 27] things, euen the secrets of [our] heartes. This earnest desire to serue God in hir Princely vocation without any shrinking or wauering, hath bin so long plā ­ted, & is so well setled in hir Maiesties deuoute minde, that no possible meanes e­uer could, as you presently finde; euer shall, as we trust in Gods mercy, quench in hir Highnesse that religious affection.

This the Apostles & confessors did often in the primitiue Church, & S. Cypriā testifieth that some did in his time, & S. Athanasius himselfe did with the Catholikes in Antioch.

What did they?The Apostl [...] had priuate places, but not priuate Masses. marchandize priuate Masses, or feede men w^t demie Communions? Did they mock the simple with praiers not vnderstood, or weary them with empty gestures? They did no such thing, but Priest & people ioyned togither to celebrate the Lords supper, tasting al of one bread which was broken, of one cup which was blessed: & offred thanks to God with one consent of hart & voice, for the flesh of Christ y^t was wounded, & blood y^• was shed for the re­mission of their sinnes. This was done in prisons, whiles persecution lasted in chambers, if necessitie forced, & in those churches which y^e Christians frequēted.

Straine Cyprians words at your pleasure, yet will they neuer be drawen to make for your vanities. He warneth the people not to flock to y^e prisons in heaps least their resort be noted of Infidels, & by that meanes all accesse denied: he ra­ther aduiseth them, that a Priest & a Deacon by course, should visite the Confes­sors. To what end you shal find at large in a leter of his to Cornelius. Let vs not leaue thē naked & vnarmed, whō we prouoke & incite to the skirmish, but defend them with the munitiō of the body & blood of Christ: Cypr. lib. 1. Epist. 2. our Eucharist hauing that vertue to safegard the receiuers. How do we prepare thē to take the cup of Martyrdom, except we first admit them in the church, as cōmuni­cāts, to drink of the Lords cup? The cup of the Lords ta­ble then thought needfull for Mar­tyrs, which the Ies. now barre the people from Niceph. lib. 9. cap. 23. 1. Corinth. 10. Matt. 26. 1. Cor. 11. He y^t cōcludeth both kinds to be needful for such as were ready to spend their liues in y^e professiō of Christs name, doubtles neuer ment to procure thē a priuate Masse, that should keep thē frō receiuing of either.

Athanasius refusing Leontius the Bishop of Antioch for heresie, did cōmu­nicate in priuat houses with such as fauored Eustathius. It skilleth not where, but what he did: our Sauiour appointed neither time, nor place, to be respected in his supper, but the word & elemēts: charging vs to do what he did, which is to breake & giue, that all may be partakers of one bread; to diuide the cup, that all may drincke thereof. Do that which he commanded to be done, who first ordai­ned this mystery. Do that which S. Paul receiued of the Lord, & deliuered to the Church of Corinth: do that I say which the primitiue Church of Christ al­wayes did, and as for places we wil not greatly striue.

The rigor of penal statutes, searches of temporal officers, & watchfulnes of (poore) ministers, doth maruelously trouble your spirits. I wil not requite you with the flames you kindled in England to burne your brethren to dust; with that holy house which your Friers haue planted in Spaine, resembling the tor­tures of Neroes garden;The Popish mercy. with the Massacres of Prouince, Piemont, and Pa­ris. Let passe with silence the cruel executions of your inordinate rages: God giue you grace to repent your murders past, and soften your vnmercifull [Page 28] harts in time to come: you were brought vp in lambes lease belike, that you startle thus at the fatherlie chastisement, wherewith this Realme seeketh your amendment, and sucketh not your blood. Compare the penalties, which you fret at, with the lawes of former Emperours, and you shall see that hir Maie­sties gracious inclination to shew you fauour aboue your deserts hath eased the burden, and tempered the sharpenesse of their auncient edictes, which restrai­ned such as forbare to communicate with the Church of Christ,The auncient penalties of heresie and schisme. Codic. lib. 1. tit. 5. § Manicheos. Ibidem § cūcti. August. from buying, selling, disposing, bequething goods or lands by will or otherwise, yea from re­ceiuing any legacies, or enioying their fathers inheritance, the place (where schismaticall seruice was saide) chappell or house to be forfaited, and the Bi­shop and Cleargie-man to paie tenne pound weight in gold, or to be banished.

S. Austen, when it was expected by reason of the goodnesse of his nature, that he should mediate for some part of these penalties to be released, gaue this quick & stout answere:Aug. Epist. 48. Yea marie, what else, I should gain-say this constituti­on, that you loose not the things which you call yours, & you without feare spoile Christ of all his: S. Austen al­lowed & com­mended those penalties. that the Romane lawes should permit you to make your last wils, and you with cauelling reuerse that which God bequethed our fathers: that in buying and selling your contracts might be good, and you share that among you which Christ bought, when he was solde: that you might freely giue what you list, and what the God of Gods hath bestowed on his owne children from East to West should be voide: that you should not be banished from the place where your bodies rest, and you driue Christ from the kingdom (purchased) with his blod to reach from sea to sea. Nay, nay, let Princes [on Gods name] serue Christ in making lawes for Christ.

You neede not complaine of rigour so long as our penall statutes be farre more fauourable than these lawes,Our penal­ties far gent­ler thā those. which the Christian Emperours established, and the Catholike fathers commended. Acquaint the world with the persecu­tion that you suffer in England, and your vntrue reports shall soone be conuin­ced. The greatest brunt your friends did beare till this last reuolt, which you procured (if they ioyned therewithall no traiterous intent) was imprisonment, where no man was denied the freedom of his goods, the comfort of his wife, the succor of his friends: the basest among them neuer knew, what dungeon, stocks, or Irons ment: yet say you, They were chased from their houses, spoiled of their goods, and handled I know not with what extremitie.

Apol. Cap. 1. Sect. 5. Neither be such men miserable onely by so long lacke of things necessarie to saluation, but much more that they be inforced to things which assuredly procure dam­nation. In which case verie lamentable it is to thinke vpon all the distressed conscien­ces that throughout the Realme repine with inconsonable sighes and grones against their receiuing, hearing and vsing of the pretended Sacraments, Seruice, Sermons and other actions, whereunto they be inuoluntarilie and against their will drawen, and espe­ciallie for the oth of the Queenes soueraintie in spirituall regiment, a thing improba­ble, vnreasonable, vnnaturall, impossible: and yet the forme thereof so conceiued in [Page 29] statute, and so tendered, that the takers must sweare vpon the Euangelists (howsoeuer they thinke in deede) that they acknowledge euen in their conscience that, which neuer learned man of any sort or sect did euer thinke to be true, and which they know euerie Catholike man to condemne in heart, and which the chiefe makers of the same, by ex­empting themselues from it by a speciall prouiso, haue iudged either damnable or very dangerous. Which oth therefore to exact of most Officers in the Commonwealth of euery one that is preferred in the Vniuersities, or otherwise almost throughout the Realme, and namely of all such as they suspect thinke it vntrue, is nothing else but wittingly to driue men to pitifull torment of minde, remorse and vtter desperation. Which thing if hir Maiestie did know, she would neuer of hir naturall clemencie, for a title & claime that neuer king (much lesse Queene) Christiā nor Heathen, Catholick nor Hereticke, in hir owne dominions or in all the world beside before our age, did chalendge or accept, suffer hir poore subiectes to be so inwardly and deepelie afflicted in their soules, &c.

I confesse the lacke of things necessarie to saluation maketh men ve­rie miserable: but you should haue shewed what those thinges are which this Realme wanteth: your mouth is no measure what is requisite for the sauing of our soules, and your reader I dare saie, looked for some grauer authoritie. Receiue with meekenes the word that is graffed [amongst you] saith Iames: it is able to saue your soules. Iames. 1. So long as wee refuse no part of the Gospell, which is the power of God for the saluation of euery beleeuer, al other wāts we nothing esteeme.Rom. 1. S. Paul doth acertaine vs,2. Tim. 3. that the Scriptures are able to [direct and] instruct to saluation by faith in Christ Iesus. Lesse wee be­leeue not, more we neede not; dreame you what you list of damnation or saluati­on, the comfort of Scriptures shall nourish our hope.Rom. 15.

It greeueth you sore to thinke on the distressed consciences of such as be drawen against their wills to frequent our Sacraments and Seruice. Beginne you now to mislike that any mans conscience should be forced? Then why did you, why yet at this day do you force numbers with extreme violence to recant & forsweare the perswasiou of their faith?The Iesuites would force, but not be forced to reli­gion. what reason can you bring that you may compell others, and none must compell you? Where gat you that exemption? Or if com­pulsion be lawfull for both sides alike, why grate you so much at our small and easie penalties, when your selues bee iustly charged with many cruell and vn­christian tragedies? Your inquisiting, your burning, your murdering of thow­sands without any respect of innocent or ignorant is in deede very lamentable: this kinde of compelling, which hir Highnesse vseth, neither can your friendes denie to be charitable, nor your selfe gainsaie to bee semblable to that coaction, which the Scriptures commend in Iosiah, which the most vertuous Empe­rours followed in the primitiue Church, and which S. Austen vpon deepe de­ [...]ating the case, found allowed by God himselfe, as the chiefest point of that ser­uice, which he requireth of Christian Princes.

Our Sacraments, Seruice and Sermons are, you say, pretended: wee say, reformed by the constat of Christs will and testament: farther defence till you name the faultes shall be needlesse; Lightly saide without proofe may bee [Page 30] lightly contemned without answere.

The Princes interest to Persons and causes ecclesiasticall sticketh in your stomacks, as a thing improbable, vnreasonable, vnnaturall, impossible, which neuer king, much lesse Queene, Christian or Heathen, Catholike or Hereticke in this lande or in all the world beside before our age, did chalenge or accept. If great vauntes were sound proofes, the victorie were yours. You haue wordes and crakes at will, they cost you nothing: as for the matter in question, when wee are come to your fourth chapter,Examining the oth respe­cted to the fourth chapt. where you seeme to shew the ground of these spee­ches, it shall then appeare, notwithstanding your tempest of tearmes here, and trifling cauelles there, that the power of Princes to commaunde for truth, and to make lawes for Christ, standeth not onely with probabilitie, possibilitie, reason and nature, but also with euident vtilitie, necessitie, religion and equi­tie, confirmed expreslie by the Scriptures, and plainly warranted by the lawes, actions and examples of the most famous and renowmed Princes that euer were: keepe your courage for that combat, the time is not long.

I am content to respect you till then: yet this I will adde by the way; the contentes of that oth for the Princes supremacie, neuer learned man of any sort or sect did thinke to be euer true. Manie lear­ned men of their side as wel as ours haue both ta­ken, and de­fended the oth.

No? what did the Bishoppes and Preachers of England for these fiftie yeares, which liked and accepted this oth for good and godlie? Not a learned man among them, saie you: then happie be those Seminaries of yours, that of ignorant boyes, starting hence but last daie, can so soone bring foorth learned and graue Diuines. What say you then to some of your owne sect, I meane Tonstall in his Epistle to Cardinall Poole, and Gardiner in his Oration of true obedience? Did not ei­ther of them take this or the like oth, and willinglie defende the same?

They changed their mindes in Queene Maries time.

They did so, but their latter inconstancie doth not abolish the truth of their former confession. Well if this whole Realme be voide of learning (such is your modestie) come to strangers. Was there euer any learned of our side, that impugned your errors? I trust you will not reiect them as vnlearned, left men beginne to doubt not of your learning, but of your right wittes. Graunt them to be learned, and I will proue their iudgements to goe with ours in this question.

You require me to shew their wordes. Ywis that were no great masterie. Reade Molineus against your holy Fathers abuses, Peter Martyr vpon the 19. chapter of Iudges, Symlerus his preface before Boetius, Cassianus, Gelasius, &c. Other natiōs both by words and deedes haue allowed and shewed that power of the Prince, which the oth proposeth. And tell me what difference betwixt vs and them. But I choose rather to produce the Common wealthes, where these learned men and infinite mo did, and do liue: for beholding their deedes, what neede we their wordes? Their actions will testifie their opinions. Scotland, Flaunders, Denmarke, Suetia, Polonia, Bohemia, the free Cities and States of Germanie, Suyt­zerland, and other nations, which haue displaced your impieties, and receiued the Gospell: made they this change by the Popes permission and assent of his Bishoppes, or else by the Magistrates ayde and assistance? The first of [Page 31] these twayne you dare not auouch; for God knoweth it went much against your willes: then must you confesse the seconde, and so those learned Prea­chers and writers which either at first perswaded and incouraged, or at this daie commend and allowe the Princes and Magistrates of those kingdomes and Countries, for remouing Antichrist with all his trinckettes out of their dominions, and embracing the truth of Christ by publicke authoritie, yea for reforming their Churches and setting an order in causes Ecclesiasticall as farre foorth in euerie point, as her Highnesse hath done in this Lande: all these learned and worthie Diuines, I saie, consent with vs in this, that the Magistrate may lawfullie settle matters of Religion, maugre your Ro­mish Idoll, and punishe errour and iniquitie by the temporall sworde as well in Bishoppes and Priestes as in others: which is the verie summe and effect of this oth that you by no meanes can awaie with.

The chiefe makers of it them-selues haue iudged it either damnable or verie daungerous.

This no doubt is a vehement accusation, if it can bee proued; if it bee rashlie surmised, then is it as pestilent a slaunder. Goe to, what reason leadeth you to charge the Nobles of this Land in this sorte?

The Barons exempted them-selues from taking this oth by a spe­ciall prouiso.

What if they did not exempt them-selues, but her Ma­iestie for the confidence shee reposed in her Nobles,The Nobles of this Realm shamefullie slaundered by the Iesuits. and for a difference be­tweene them and the Commons, woulde not haue their othes, but accepted their honours as sufficient pledges of their fidelitie, will you wrest her Graces good opinion of them to their vtter and open diffamation? Or what if some Barons of this Realme skant fullie resolued in that point (which then was no wonder) made meanes to bee respited for a season till they might be farther instructed, which coulde not bee graunted to particular persons by name without infamie to them-selues and iniurie to the rest; and for that cause, least anie shoulde bee pointed at, or distrusted more than others, this gene­rall exemption were deuised as most indifferent; who but a wrangling Ie­suite would inferre that the chiefe doers in heart condemned their own law?

You demaund, how my supposals can be proued. That needeth not, your [...]ile and infamous report is sufficiently confuted, if I bring other & better occasions, that were but possible. For where many good reasons of this exemption may bee produced, why do you spitefully presume the worst: and that vpon a blinde suspition, without anie proofe? Why doe you rashly coniecture their secret thoughtes, which you by no meanes could know? why boldly pronounce you that of Christian and godlie States, which no sober man will suspect in Turkes and Infidels? to wit, that they met in Parliament to make wic­ked and bloodie lawes against their owne consciences? And what if I coulde not resolue you whence this exemption first sprang, (such mat­ters of counsell pertayning little to your vocation and myne) yet due respect to their places, which we shoulde not despise: good triall of their wisedomes, which we can not deny: common charitie to their persons, which wee may not [Page 32] purposelie diffame; withhold me Philander, and should haue restrained you from this lewd and insolent reproching the consciences of so many noble men & wor­thie Counsellors, except you could shew some iust and ineuitable proofe, which you can not, hauing for your vnhonest surmise no surer ground than this, that the Statute doth not compel Barons or any temporal person aboue that degree to take this oth, but exempteth them from the penalties of this Act, prouided for o­thers of meaner calling and lesse credit with hir Maiestie.

To exact this oth of most Officers in the Commonwealth, and of euerie one that is preferred in the Vniuersities is nothing else but wittingly to driue men to pitiful tor­ment of minde, remorse, and vtter desperation. The oth exa­cted of Offi­cers and pro­ceeders. The law bar­reth Papists from prefer­ments and offices, vntill they demon­strate their o­bedience by oth. Is that to driue them to despera­tion? The Iesuits buzzing in corners doth trouble their consciences, and not the oth.

Why so good Sir? Is this consequent, that he which keepeth your men from degrees and offices dri­ueth them to desperation? Gape your friendes so mightilie for honor and lucre, that rather than they will lacke earthly preferments they can not choose but vē ­ter their soules? No law forceth them to seeke for offices and dignities, but on­ly debarreth them frō such, vntill they renounce that vsurped authoritie, which your holie Father claimeth to commaund, correct and depose Princes at his beck. If any be tormented in minde for abiuring that vniust title, which the Pope pretendeth; blame not the Lawes of this Realme, which you can not disproue; blame the couetous and ambitious humor of those, that for worldlie respectes would rush headlong against the perswasion of their heartes; blame your odious and erronious whispering in their eares, which hath troubled and altered their conceits, that were caulmed and setled in quietnesse. Such tem­porising hipocrites, if any such be so vexed in minde, as you tell vs (which I scantly beleeue: for ambition and gaine breed in them rather delight than re­morse) yet were they not thereto driuen by the Magistrate, who proposed this law with condition, and left them to the choise; but their greedinesse first baited them, next your secret buzzing in corners disordered their vnconstant affections, and now perhaps foolish fantasie doth afflict them, without reason of their partes, or occasion of ours.

But to compell namely all such as you suspect to thinke it vntrue, that is wilfullie to force men to desperation.

The time was when you and your fellowes cared little for driuing others to desperation. The strange tor­mentes you deuised and practised on thowsandes, to compell them from the confession of their faith without any regard of their consciences, can witnesse the same: mary now the sword is out of your handes, you growe so tender and delicate that neither religion nor obedience may be forced on you, for feare least you fall to desperation. You can shift for your selues, I perceiue, what euer betide your neighbours:The Magi­strates may compel two things that be lawfull, though des­peration doe ensue. but in sadnesse Philander where learned you this diui­nitie, that subiectes may not be compelled against their wils, if they list to pretende conscience, least they despayre? Shall the peeuish opinion of such as bee frowarde and ignorant, or to speake with fauour, the priuate per­swasion of such as be weake, s [...]ppe Magistrates from yeelding that seruice which God requireth of them? May Princes displease God, to please men? or [Page 33] breake the least of his preceptes, to content neuer so great a multitude? No doubt they may not. For rulers in making their lawes must depend on the wil of God reuealed in his word,A thiefe may be hanged, though he would pretēd desperation. not on other mens consciences. Idolaters, here­tickes, and schismatikes lacke not an inward and strong perswasion of their sects, yet dare you not denie, but Christian Princes ought to force their sub­iectes from idolatrie, dissention, and heresie.

The Scriptures commend Iosiah, for compelling the people to serue God:2. Chronic. 34. Luc. 14. the seruant is charged to compell the guestes that were loth to come: God hath ordained the sword (which neuer entreateth or perswadeth, but onlie commaundeth and compelleth) to punish falshood and assist truth. Now men that bee willing neede no forcing, ergo Princes may compell their subiectes, that is constraine them against their wils to keepe the faith and communion of Christs Church, notwithstanding they pretend, or in deede haue neuer so reso­lute and strong an opinion to the contrarie.

The Donatistes, rather than they would bee forced from their fansies, slew themselues,August. epist. 50. & 204. The Dona­tists were not spared though they offered themselues violence. yet this did nothing fraie the Church of God frō compelling them by the rigour of Princes lawes, without any respect to their wilful desperation. We graunt he that woundeth a weake conscience sinneth against Christ; mary to be grieued with that which is good, is no weakenesse but wickednesse; and he that tendereth or regardeth a wicked conscience, by your leaue, is a fauo­rer and confirmer of his euill works. To such saith Paul, I gaue no place, no not an hour: 1. Corinth. 8. Galat. 2. Galat. 1. for if I should [so] please mē, I were not the seruant of Christ. We may not for thinges indifferent trouble the weake mindes of our brethren, yet this rule bindeth no Magistrate to remit the punishment of error and infide­litie, because God hath charged them to suffer no kinde of euill vnreuenged, (and this is the greatest) whose voice they must heare, whose will they must obeie, though they were sure thereby to scandalize neuer so many both aliens & subiectes.

Wo to that man by whom offences come.

True Sir, but an offence fondly taken,Luc. 17. not iustly giuen, entangleth no man besides the taker. Blessed is he (saith Christ) that is not offended at me. Where cursed is he that taketh an offence,Luc. 7. the giuer is blessed for euer. We preach Christ cruci­fied a stumbling blocke to the Iewes, and wo to me (saith Paul) if I preach not the Gospell, 1. Cor. 1. 1. Cor. 9. 2. Cor. 2. yet doth it bring the wicked to their destruction, and is the sauour of death vnto death in them that perish. Then as the minister must dispense the worde of truth, be therewith offended and greiued who list:Offence ta­ken not iustly giuen hurteth no man but the taker. so the Magistrate may drawe the sworde of iustice to compell and punish such as bee blindly led, or maliciouslie bent to resist sound doctrine; without any respect what afterward befalleth such ouerthwart creatures. If vpon compulsion, des­peration ensue; wo not to the compeller, vsing those meanes which God hath appointed, and discharging that duetie, which God hath commaunded; but wo rather, and double wo to the despayrer, who first framed his conscience to for­sake truth and beleeue lies; and nowe receiuing the iust reward of his error [Page 34] hath his heart hardened, that when good discipline, which healeth others, is applied as a wholesome medicine to recouer him, it causeth or sheweth him to be past cure, without any sinister action, or ill intention of the Magistrate.

Thus much for the making, and exacting of that oth. The contents where­of shall be fully discussed when we come to the place which I named. We stand too long I feare about these foolish and impertinent quarels. I will passe to your second Chapter as finding nothing left in your first, but an action of vn­kindnesse against such as call you Fugitiues: which name you well deserue, though you be loth to beare.

That is but your saying, which wee little regard.

Much lesse neede wee regard your slaunderous and false re­ports published of purpose to deface this Realme: they bee but your sayinges, which no good man esteemeth.

You fall now to wordes.

What else haue you done, since we began? We be now come to the shutting vp of your first Chapter; reuiew the same: what one line, what one letter haue you proued, that hurteth vs, or helpeth you?

You were not here to looke for many Scri­ptures or Fathers: we giue you the reasons of our departure, which bee mat­ters of fact, and admit no proofes.

If you can not proue them, wee neede not disproue them; and so let vs end with this, and proceede to the next.

You answere not halfe that which we haue obiected.

You obiect much & proue litle: which forceth me to neglect the most part of that you haue obiected. For when you heape vp idle words, that are but winde; and raigne ouer your aduer­saries with Lordlike vauntes, which are better despised than answered; why should I follow your vaine humor, or bring the cause of Christ to a meere brable or wordes, as your Apologie doth?

Say your pleasure.

Your first Chapter we haue seene: what doth your seconde containe?

Their rūning to Rome.The causes of our repairing sometime to the Citie and Court of Rome.

If this be all, I will neuer open my mouth for the matter. Your pri­uate actions and secret purposes we can not see, wee neede not search. There­in you may pretende what you please, without any truth, and wee beleeue what we list without any wrong.

In faith and truth they were none other, but to make humble s [...]te for the establishment, Apolog. chap. 2. Se [...] 6. and perpetuall foundation of the Col­lege or Seminarie which his Holinesse had long before instituted in place of the hospitall of our nation there: this was one thing. Another was, that the Gouernours of that College in Rome aboue, and of this other now resident in Rhemes beneath might giue and take mutuall direction for correspondence in regiment, discipline and education most agreeable to our Countrie mens natures, and for preuention of all disorders that youth and companies of Scholers namely in banishment are subiect vnto.

It may be this you did, but did you nothing else?

It was strong­ly surmised we know, that our going to Rome was to procure some matter a­gainst the Prince, but God is our witnesse it was no part of our meaning.

That intelligence was giuen by such as were daily conuersant with you, and those articles of confederacie betweene the Pope, and others to inuade this Realme were rife in your Seminaries there, and closely sent to your friendes [Page 35] here; but whether interprised & followed by cōmon consent amongst you, or only deuised & scattered by some of you, to strike a feare in the peoples harts to make them the readier for your perswasions, we can not exactly say: this wee be sure, such practises in subiects be lewd & seditious.

If that informatiō were true.

What reasons haue you to proue it false?

Enow: The second chapter of our Apologie doth refell it at large.

You refell it in deed, as your maner is; that is, you say that you wil without any further proofe or paines. Certain yong fellowes, Apolog chap. [...]. sect. 1. say you, Fugitiues from their Masters, deprehēded in diuerse cosinages, coun­terfaiting of letters, & plaine thefts haue of malice, hope of impunity and lucre traite­rously slaundered you. Thus as if you sate supreme Iudges ouer al the world, you bring nothing to quite your selues and confute your aduersaries, but onely the breath of your own mouthes.

Wee giue you an oth for our discharge:A Iesuites oth is no great as­surance: they haue such cū ­ning to make othes, & pow­er to dispence with othes. Apolog. Cap. 2. Sect. 2. will you not beleeue vs, when wee sweare?

If wee do it, is more of our good meaning than your wel deseruing; you dispence so fast with the breach of othes.

You misreport vs, we do not so.

That shal appeare in place conuenient. I will not now disgresse from the matter. An oth, you say, we haue to purge al suspition: Let vs hear it.

The principall of the viage doth protest, that he neither ioyned with rebell nor traitor, nor any other against the Queene or Realme, or traiterously sought or practised to irritate any Prince or potentate to hostility against the same. Further in­uocating vpō his soul that he neither knew, saw nor heard during his aboad in the court of Rome, of any such writings, as are mentioned in the proclamation of Iuly, containing certaine articles of confederation of the Pope, king of Spaine & other Princes for the inuasion of the Realme.

We heare you sweare, but meane you plainly?

Why doubt you that?

You teach others,Inter quaestio­nes ad tribunal indicis perti­nentes, quaest. 2. quomodo re­spondendum in tribunali haere­ticorum. whē they be called before such as you count heretiks; sophisticè iurare, & sophisticè, respōdere, sophistically to swear, & sophistically to answere, that is to mocke the Magistrate with a captious & cunning oth or answere. And therefore vnlesse you giue vs a preciser & strickter oth than this, we trust you not. You did not traiterously seeke or practise to irritate any Prince or Potentate to hostilitie against the Queene or Realme: What needed this addition, you sought it not traiterously? Your meaning may bee, you sought it, but lawfully.

What fraud you suspect, where we meane simply?.

Then for the better explication of our selues,They make it no treason to inuade the Land, if the Pope so com­maund vpon pretence of heresie and schisme. do you thinke it treason for an English man to ioyne with the Pope or any other appointed by him to inuade the Land for the restoring of Religion, and execution of the sentence, which Pius the fift pronoū ­ced against her Maiestie?

That sentence is extrauagant.

Not so. For if you count it no treason, as we can proue the most part of you do not, to obey y^e Pope deposing the Queene, then in your own conceits may you safely sweare, you did not these thinges trayterouslie, though touching the factes it were certaine you did them.

What a compasse you fet to intrap vs?

What euasions you get to delude vs? but how doth this cleare the rest of your side?

Wee bee most assured that no English Catholike woulde or coulde bee the [Page 36] author thereof.

It is much to bee sure what euerie man of your faction would or could doe: you must bee gods and not men, if you can doe that.

Wee knowe they woulde not.

Leaue this follie, you can not search the secretes of other mens heartes, nor accompt for their deedes: in a matter so impossible; the more vehement, the more impudent.

Apolog. chap. 2. sect. 2. It verily may bee thought (and so is it certaine, that some of the prin­cipall ministers of the forenamed Princes haue a [...]nswered being demaunded there­of) that the Protestantes hauing exercised skill and audacitie in such practises and counterpractises (of which Fraunce, Flaunders, Scotland and other coun­tries haue had so lamentable experience) did contriue them to alter her Maie­sties accustomed benignitie and mercie towards the Catholickes.

It is great pitie that Papistes bee no practisers. Aske England, Scotland, Flaunders, Fraunce, Spaine, Italie, Scicile, Germanie, what practises they haue found, I say not in your temporall men, but in the Priestes, Prelates and Pillours of your Church.Popes for these 600. yeares haue been nothing else but pra­ctisers. Righter Macheuels than the Popes them-selues Christen­dome hath not bred: mary this indeede you were alwayes better with poy­sons and Treasons, than with papers and pamflets: and yet you spared neither Scriptures, Councels, nor Fathers; but corrupted and enterlaced them to serue your turnes.

As for the procurers and setters of this late confederacie to assaulte the Realme, if you knowe not who they were, Charles Paget and others with you can tell; or if they would dissemble, Throckmorton hath tolde. There shall you see, whether this were a meere deuise and sleight of ours, or a lewde intente and practise of yours. These bee the chiefe pointes of your seconde Chapter: the rest is lippe-labour and noe waye concerneth your cause.

Yes: wee prooue it lawfull for men in our case to flie to the Bishoppe of Rome, for reliefe either of bodie or soule.

Wee bee sure you will saie it with boldnesse enough, but will you prooue it?

Wee will prooue it.

Howe?

Apolog. Cap. 2. Sect. 5. Hiero. Epist. 16 A fond florish for their go­ing to Rome. Whither should wee rather flie than to the head, or as Sainct Hierom speaketh (to the most secure part of our Catholike communion) to the rocke of refuge in doubtfull dayes and doctrines, to the chiefe Pastour and Bishoppe of our soules in earth, to the Vicar generall of Christ, out of the compasse of whose fold and familie no banishment can bring vs: to him that by office and vnction had receiued the grace of loue, pitie and compassion: to him that counteth no Christian nor domesticall of faith a stranger: This is no flatterie. to him whose Citie and Seat is the natiue home of all true beleeuers, and the paterne of all Bishoply hospitalitie and benignitie.

Whither nowe Maisters, are you well aduised?

Why not?

You presume that to be most true, which is most in question betwixt vs; and as if your vnshamefast flatteries were sounde and substantiall verities, you conclude without prouing the precedents, or respecting the consequent. For first, what witnesse bring you, that the Pope is as you say, the head, the rocke of refuge in doutful daies & doctrines, the chiefe Pastor and Bishop of your souls in earth, [Page 37] the Vicar generall of Christ: or that his seat is the natiue home of all true belee­uers, and the whole Church his folde and familie? What auncient Father or Councell euer liked, or suffered these proude and false titles? Why proue you not that which you speake? Or why speake you that which you can not proue? In so weightie matters do you thinke it enough to saie the worde, and by and by wee must hush?

Wee haue else-where brought you so manie demonstrations for these thinges, that nowe wee take them to bee cleare.

Omit these vauntes, we aske for proofes: and till you bring them, by your owne rule we neede frame you no farther answere.

Make you merrie with that aduantage, but yet Sainct Hierom is not so shifted.

His name you set in the forefront to lead on the rable of your vnsauorie speeches, but the wordes of Sainct Hierom doe little releeue you. For let it be that Athanasius and after him Peter Bishops of Alexandria, Hiero. ad Prin­cip. epita­phium Mar­cell. de­clining the persecution of the Arian heresie, fled to Rome as to the safest port of their communion; because Rome was then free from the tumults of Ari­ans, so long as Constans liued,Rome was then safe frō Arians whiles Constans li­ued, but not after when the Bishop of Rome was ba­nished by the Arians. Apol. Cap. 2. Sect. 5. Bede lib. 1. hist. Ang. The pretēces of their run­ning to Rome and readie to receiue such as suffered affliction, for the truth of Christ, which is all that Sainct Hierom saith: what inferre you thence? that Rome is now the like? This illation commeth twelue hundred yeares too short of your antecedent, and no waie dependeth vpon S. Hieroms wordes; vnlesse you thinke that Rome now, because shee beareth the same name, must also chalenge the same vertues, and praises, which Rome so longe since both had and deserued; which were verie ridiculous. But is this all you will adde before you growe to your maine conclusion?

The greatest part is yet behinde. For as I beganne, whither shoulde we rather flie than to him, whose Predecessors gaue vs our first faith in the time of the Britanes, restored it after in the dayes of the English, recouered vs from Paga­nisme, from Arianisme, from Pelagianisme, from Zwinglianisme: often recei­ued, harbored, and releeued, diuerse blessed Bishops and Priestes of our nation, as well in the times of their prosperitie, as persecution; and who haue receiued againe of all our Princes, Prelats and People, all duetifull and correspondent honours and good Of­fices for so many hundred yeares togither, when they and their dominions florished in much glorie and felicitie, and were dreadfull to Gods enemies, the Churches and their owne: among whom hir Maiesties Father for his worthie writinges and do­ings against the Lutherans receiued the glorious and eternall title of Defender of the faith, to him of whose Predecessors all the famous Fathers called for ayde, com­fort and counsell in their like distresses, Cyprian of Cornelius and Stephanus, Athanasius of Iulius and Marcus, Chrysostom and Augustine of Innocentius, Basill of Tiberius, Felix and other Bishops of Italie: Hierom and Milecius of Da­masus, Theodorete of Leo the great, and all the rest of otherholy Popes, as time and necessitie required: Lib. 4. cap. 22. Eccle hist. to him whose Seat (as Eusebius reporteth of Sainct Denys of Corinth) did alwayes sende reliefe to all the Christians persecuted, and con­demned to mettalles, and refreshed all the faithfull comming vnto it as the Pa­rent the children: to him who as he canonically succeedeth all these in Seate, do­ctrine [Page 38] and dignitie, so is inferiour to none, farre passeth many, and resembleth most Sainct Gregorie the great our Apostle in all charitie, hospitalitie, zeale, and tendernesse of heart and affection toward the desolate, namely our nation: for the spi­rituall calamitie whereof the writer of this hath seene him weepe full hartily, and hath heard him saie, the goods of that holie Seat, whereof he had the dispensation, were for the poore afflicted domesticals of faith. Finallie, whither could we with more hope haue recourse, than to him, by whose bounteous goodnesse so manie Patriarches, Bishops, learned, Gentlemen and Christians of all sortes, English, Scottish, Irish, Almans, Hungarians, Syrians, Armenians, Cyprians, and all other vnder the Turke, or any way for Christes sake oppressed or impouerished haue beene and shall be relieued.

A long processe to little purpose. Graunt that diuerse good men in times past haue sent and gone to Rome for counsell and comfort in cases of distresse, which is all in effect which you can or doe say: what conclude you nowe?

That wee may doe the like.

The like you may, but not the contrarie.

We follow precisely their steps.

That we denie. Well,The Iesuites go to Rome, but not as the Fathers did. you may goe to Rome as they did, and so your iourney not differ from theirs in the paines, which you take; nor the place, which you see; but you neither carrie with you the same mindes, that they did; neither doth your holy Father content him selfe with those meanes, which his predecessors vsed. For the auncient Bishoppes of Rome were duetifull and obedient Subiectes to the Christian Emperours, and dealt by petition and supplication in most humble wise for their afflicted brethren: they neuer offered armes, nor encouraged Rebell against the superiour Powers, no not when Constantius the Arian banished Liberius the Bishop of Rome for dissenting from his opinion; nor when Iulius the Apostata renounced the faith, and openly fell to Gentilisme: but euer submitted them selues to the same Lawes and paines that other god­ly Bishops did, when the Prince tooke part with error. And for this cause the traueling then to Rome, whiles the Bishop there embraced the truth, o­beyed the State, & assisted their brethren by good and lawfull meanes, coulde no waie be displeasant to God, iniurious to Princes, nor daungerous to com­mon-wealthes: In our dayes it is farre otherwise. The Pope nowe taketh vpon him to depose Kinges, to inuade Realmes, to authorize rebellion, yea to curse all that yeelde any subiection, or duetie to those Magistrates that with­stand their fantasies: Which vile and intollerable presumption of the late Bi­shops of Rome, neither Cyprian, nor Athanasius, nor Chrysostome, nor Augustine, nor Basill, nor Hierom, nor Theodorete in their times euer founde or feared. And therefore both you must alter the leude perswasions of your heartes, and your holie Father must leaue his wholie practises to pull Princes out of their thrones by stirring sedition and inuading their Dominions, before your flocking to Rome can bee warranted by these examples.

I maruell you still obiect that, which wre by oth haue purged. [Page 39] You knowe wee haue sworne that in going to Rome wee had no such in­tent.

Your oth, if it bee true, cleareth one man for one viage; but which of you doeth, or can sweare for all other times and persons? Howbeit in this place wee doe not vrge you with your intentes nor attempts against her Maiestie, wee onely weigh the strength of your argument, that you may slie to Rome, as well as some learned and auncient Fathers haue done. This collection of yours is not good:They may not goe to Rome in these dayes though the Fathers did, when the Bi­shop of Rome behaued him­selfe as a due­tifull subiect to the Empe­rour. because the bishop of Rome nowe claymeth full power to depriue Princes of their Crownes, and dis­charge their Subiectes from all obedience, contrarie to the worde of God, and examples of Christes Church; which in those dayes, whiles these Fathers, whom you mention, liued, the Bishoppes of Rome neither did or durst presume.

Wee meddle not with the Popes clayme, hee can answere for him­selfe.

You must meddle with it, and bring ineuitable proofe for it, before your consequent will bee currant, or your slight to Rome lawfull.

If wee sought to Rome, for succour against the Prince, your saying were somewhat, but I haue often tolde you we doe not.

And I haue told you as often, that graunt you did not, the Popes clayme to discharge Kinges and Queenes at his pleasure, is enough to reuerse your argument.If this pride and tyrannie be vnlawfull: resorting to him, and par­taking with him, can not be lawfull. Wee care not what you dissemble of pollicie for a season, but what he cha­lengeth for euer as of right. His pride, not your craft is the thing we stand on, and that being such as the learned Fathers whom you name, neuer sawe nor suspected, maketh so great a difference betweene those dayes and these, that from their fact to yours no good consequent can be framed.

And yet I could tell you besides, that when hee commaundeth you must and will execute. So that although you were no seekers nor prouokers of his vnchristian dealinges against our Soueraigne, you neither may, nor doe refuse to bee commenders, assisters, perfourmers of his vngodlie pur­poses, tende they neuer so much to the preiudice of this Realme, and di­sturbance of her Maiesties Title, State, and wel-fare. Which tyranous vsurpation in him, and trayterous affection in you, no Father, that is Catholicke,Not one of their exam­ples toucheth the Popes power ouer Princes: but conuince ra­ther the con­trarie. Counsell and comfort may be fet from a­nie place as well as frō Rome. did euer allowe; no Prince, that is auncient, did euer en­dure. And as for your skattered and maymed examples, which here you heape to fraie the simple with emptie names and loftie words, not one of them auoucheth and such matter or meaning.

If they prooue not the Popes iurisdiction ouer Princes which you stoutelie denie, yet I trust they proue, that wee may sende, or goe to Rome, to bee resolued in doubtes of Religion, and to bee relieued in times of affliction, which is all wee require.

Counsell in cases of fayth, and comforte in dayes of daunger, bee no signes of autho­ritie, but dewties of Charitie, neyther those peculiar to the Bishoppe of Rome, but common to the whole Church of God: and therefore if your examples reache no farther, but that Princes haue beene some­times [Page 40] aduised, and other good men harbored by the Bishops of Rome, whiles the Citie was famous for learning and religion, you take great paines to proue that which neither helpeth you, nor hindereth vs. All this may bee graunted, and your running to Rome no whit the sooner concluded to bee lawfull.

What reason barreth vs now from trauelling to Rome more than others heretofore?

Your holie Father pretendeth and exerciseth in our daies a monstrous and pernicious power ouer the Church of Christ, which at that time when these godly men wrote, and repayred to Rome, was neither at­tempted by him, nor mistrusted by them. So that they might resort to the Bishop of Rome, The Fathers resorted to the Bishop of Rome as to their brother and fellow seruant. as to their fellow seruaunt without offence to the Church, or contempt to the state: because the Bishops then behaued themselues as religious members, not as presumptuous heades of the Church; and liued as subiectes, not as superiors to the Prince: you can now not flie to the Bishop of Rome, but you must do violent wrong to them both: to the Prince by renoū ­cing your subiection, breaking your oth, and bearing armes against your liege Ladie, when the Pope commaundeth: to the Church in thinking & tea­ching the Bishop of Rome to bee the decider of all doubtes, vpholder of all truth, expounder of all Scriptures, Confirmer of all Councelles, dispenser with all lawes, yea supreme and infallible Iudge of all men and all matters, that any waie touch or concerne Religion. Which strange and incredible pride those examples which you bring, are so far from allowing, that we need no better witnesse to confute you with.

You doe but iest I dare saie.

Examine the particulars, & you shall finde them make cleane against you, or at least nothing for you. The Bishop of Rome, you saie, gaue vs our first faith in the time of the Britanes, restored it afterward in the dayes of the English, recouered vs from Paganisme, from Arianisme, from Pelagianisme, from Zwin­glianisme. This last I may skip as a fond effect of your distempered choler. The Gospell nowe preached among vs you call in your heat Zwinglianisme: from the which though some of you be lightly stept, I trust in God, the worst your holie Father can doe, shall neuer remoue vs. That this lande was in­fected with Arianisme and Pelagianisme, Bede Eccle hist. gentis Ang. lib. 1. Cap. 8. lib. 1. Cap. 17. This land recouered from Pela­gianisme by two French Bishops. Lib. 1. Cap. 17. as manie other places then were, I finde it reported in the storie of Bede: that the Bishop of Rome recouered vs from both, or from either, I finde it not; yea rather certaine it is, the Bishoppes of Fraunce our neighbours vppon request made vnto them by the Britanes, sent Germanus and Lupus two french Bishoppes, chosen in a Synode by the generall liking, to conuert this Realme from Pelagius error, which also they did with great celeritie. So that of those foure recoueries to the faith, which you reckon in fauour of the Bishoppes of Rome, the last is the present estate which we striue for, the two next be false, the first is only left & that furthereth your conclusion but little.

Will you denie that the Bishop of Rome first caused the Britanes and Saxons to bee christened?

I will denie nothing that is true: pre­sume [Page 41] you no more than you proue, and we shall soone growe to an ende, Lucius an auncient king of the Britanes wrote to Eleutherius Bishop of Rome for his helpe,Bede. Eccle. hist. gentis Angl. lib. 1. Cap 4. Lucius Chri­stened, and Edelbert con­uerted from Rome. that him selfe and his people might be baptised: and Gregorie the great sent Augustine the Moncke to see whether he could king Edelbert and the Saxons. Doth this proue the Pope superiour to Princes, or that he may send his factours hither without the Princes leaue?

There was somewhat in it, that Lucius sent so farre.

This Realme was then rude, learning here skant, religion newly sprong, & no where setled, Coilus, his father, brought vp at Rome from a child,The occasi­ons of Lucius sending vnto Rome. and one that of his owne accorde yeelded both friendship and tribute to the Romanes, Lucius himselfe a great fauourer of the Romane Empire, and no place neere home so fa­mous & well furnished with able men to serue his turne as Rome. What mar­uaile then if Lucius, so wel acquainted and frinded at Rome before, thought best to be thence directed and instructed at his first entrie to the Christian faith? But can you proue that Lucius was bounde to doe that hee did, or that Eleutherius did any thing against the Princes will?

I say not so.

Then this example maketh litle for you, which be sent hither not on­ly without the Princes leaue, but against her liking and Lawes, to withdrawe the peoples hearts from her, and to prepare them for a farther purpose: Grego­ries fact in sending to conuert the Saxons maketh lesse.They that came from Rome, would not enter this land nor preach here without the Kings ex­presse li­cence. Bede lib. 1. Cap. 25. For Augustine and his felowes, notwithstanding they were sent from Rome, as you are, and taught no­thing but subiection and obedience to Princes, which you doe not; yet woulde they not enter this land without the kings consent and permission, but rested in the Isle of Tenet til his pleasure were knowne; and offered not to preach in this Realme before the king in expresse wordes gaue them licence. They came not in disguised as you doe, they lurked not in corners, they traueled not by night, they brought no bulles in their bosomes to discharge the subiects and depose the Prince: the Bishop of Rome that sent them, neither stirred rebellion, nor inua­ded king Edelberts dominion. And where you being subiects offer that wrong to a Christian Queene, which they being straungers did not to an heathen king; yet would you beare men in hand you follow their example; but lay downe the true report of these stories and see howe handsomely they fitte your conclusion. Eleutherius being requested by king Lucius sent some to baptise him and his subiects; and Gregorie sent others to t [...]e whether king Edelbert woulde giue them leaue to preach to the Saxons: ergo you may flee to the Bishoppe of Rome notwithstanding he professe him selfe an open enemie to the Queene.

You still presse vs with that which we neuer ment.

You stil de­fend your selues there where we doe not strike. This is the very drift and scope of all your examples, as your owne wordes witnes:Apolog. Cap. 2. What greater hostilitie than this could the Turk himself offer? And sor vs of the schoole and Clergie, whither should we rather flee than to him. Now that he hath openly shewed himselfe an enemie to her Highnes, in accursing her Person, in remouing her Crowne, in forbidding her subiects to obey her, in ayding rebelles against her, and assaulting her land with force, you can not so much as doubt, woulde you [Page 42] neuer so faine; the facts are so notorious and fresh in the memories of all men.

We noted this in you, that where the Britanes and Saxons receiued prea­chers from Rome with honour and thankes, you persecute them with all kinde of torments.

Your attempt is as contrary to theirs, as your reward is diuers from theirs. They came with religion to God and submission to Prin­ces, you come with neyther.

I woulde you knewe it, wee come with both. And you may bee ashamed to charge vs with two such haynous crimes, prouing neyther.

Haue patience till wee come to the place, where both shall bee discussed, and see whether that which is nowe saide shall then be proued or no: but in the meane time goe forwarde with the rest of your examples.

Wee flee to him of whose predecessors all the famous fathers called for aide, comfort and counsel in their like distresses, as Cyprian of Cornelius and Stephanus, Athanasius of Iulius, Chrysostome and Augustine of Innocentius, Basil of Li­berius, Felix and other Bishops of Italie, Hierom and Miletius of Damasus, Theo­doret of Leo the great, and all the rest of other holy Popes.

This is no rea­soning but rouing. You florish with a few general and doubtful termes, neither opening the causes, nor expressing the circumstances. They called, you say, For ayde, What ayde the fathers sought at Rome. comfort and counsell. What ayde? such as the Bishops of Rome might and did yeeld in those dayes without chalenging any supremacie? That is nothing to your purpose, neither will that warrant your gadding to Rome. Such as none could giue but they that were rulers & heads of the whole Church? That were somewhat, if it could bee proued: but your examples cōtaine no such thing. Uiew the particulars.

Cypri. lib. 1. Epist. 1. & li. 2. Epistola 1. Cyprian in his epistles to Cornelius & Stephanus neuer calleth them other­wise than brethren and collegues: and in matters concerning the regiment of the Church as well giueth as taketh both counsell and comfort. But can you shewe that Cyprian euer allowed any man to runne to Rome for helpe against the iudgements and acts of other Bishops?Cypriā misli­keth running to Rome. if you can not, as wee bee right sure you be not able, then can we shew you, where Cyprian misliketh, and plainely reproueth this posting of yours to Rome, writing to Cornelius. Hee saith, that certaine persons condemned in Africa by the Bishops there,Cypri. lib. 1. Epist. 3. Romam cum men­daciorum suorum merce nauigauerunt, sailed to Rome with their fraight of lies: adding farther, And now what is the cause of their comming? for either they like that they did, and so perseuere in their wickednes; or if they mislike & relent they know whither they may returne. For where it is a thing prescri­bed to vs al, and besides that equal and right, that euery mans cause be there heard, where the crime was committed; and euery Pastor hath his portion of the flocke assigned him, which he must gouerne and rule, as one that shall giue an accompt of his doings to God, Oportet vtique eos quibus praesumus non circūcursare: Those that be vnder vs must not runne thus about [to Rome] but there plead their cause, where they may finde both accusers and witnesses; vnlesse perhaps a few desperat and loose companions take the authoritie of [Page 43] the Bishops of Africa to be lesse than [at Rome.]

The like hee sayth of one Basilides that being depriued of his Bishopricke procured letters from Rome for his restitution.Cyprian. lib. 1. Epistola 4. Cyprian en­courageth the Spaniards to neglect the Popes letters. Neither can this infringe the ordering [of the next Bishop,] lawfully finished, that Basilides running to Rome deceiued Stephanus our collegue by reason he is farre off, & not acquainted with the truth of the case, getting himselfe to be restored vniustly to the Bi­shopricke from the which he was iustly deposed. If Cyprian did not like that Cornelius should medle with matters concluded in Africa, neither esteemed the restitution of Basilides made by Stephanus, but reiected it as voyde and vniust, what other ayde thinke you would he call for at their hands, but onely such mu­tual concorde, as should profite the Church, and well beseeme the seruantes of Christ?

If Cyprian woulde not, Athanasius did; who being Patriarke of A­lexandria fled twise to Rome for succour, in his owne person, and was there not onely receiued and harboured, but also restored to his former dignitie of Iulius, notwithstanding the Councels of Tyrus and Antioche had decreed the contra­rie, and Constantius the Emperour consented thereto.

The troubles of Athanasius gaue Iulius good cause both to claime and vse the vttermost of his authoritie.How Iulius helped Atha­nasius. The wrong offered Athanasius was so shamefull, the madnes of A­rians subuerting the faith and oppressing the Church so manifest, the rage of Constantius, assisting their heresie with all his might so cruell, that if euer the Bishop of Rome woulde stirre, this time must needes force him to doe his best.

And so he did I warrant you.

What did hee?

You knowe well inough, hee summoned the Arians to appeare before him, examined their proceedings, reuersed the sentence giuen against Athanasius, and placed him in his Bishopricke in spite of his aduersaries.

Can you proue that Iulius did al this alone without the help of others, or that he did any part of this as head of the Church & Uicar general to Christ?He did al that he did, as Pa­triark of the west with the help of the west Bishops.

What cauils you inuent when you be vrged with any thing?

What broken reedes you leane too and thinke them strong pillers? It is well knowen the Bishop of Rome was not onely Patriarke of the West parts, but of y^e foure Patriarkes also which were the chiefest Bishops of Christendome, in order and accompt the first. By reason whereof no Councell could be generall vnlesse hee were called, no matters concerning the whole Church or principall Patriarks could be handled,The Bishop of Rome had his preroga­tiue from the citie of Rome, not from Peter. vnlesse he were present or priuie to the same. Which preroga­tiue was giuen him by consent of men, not by graunt from Christ; in respect of the Citie that was the Seate of the Empire, then ruling the worlde; not in to­ken of any supremacie descending from Peter. Thus much we graunt without any proofe of yours, & more than this, if you would sweate out your heartes, you shall neuer proue by these nor any other examples of the primitiue Church.

Then by your owne confession hee was the chiefest and highest Bishoppe in the worlde.He was cheef among them, not supreme ouer them.

He was before the rest in honour and digni­tie, but not ouer the rest in power and authoritie. His place was first [Page 44] when the Patriarkes met, but his voyce not negatiue: he might assemble his pro­uince and consult with them, but not conclude without them: himselfe was sub­iect both to the decrees of Councels, and to the lawes of the Christian Empe­rours euen in causes ecclesiasticall: and was oftentimes not only resisted by fa­mous men, but ouer-ruled as well by prouinciall as ecumenicall Councels, when he attempted any thing against the Canons. Which differeth much from the supremacie that he now chalengeth and vsurpeth. And therefore you did wel to walke in a mist of ambiguous wordes, to couer the lamenesse of your con­clusion.

Why did Athanasius flee to the Bishoppe of Rome for helpe, if Iulius had nought to do with his matter?

Athanasius being wrongfully thrust from his Bishopricke, and an other forciblie set in his roome by certaine Arians assembled at Antioche, vpon this pretence, that he was deposed in the Councell of Tirus, before he was banished, and after his returne presumed of his own head without a Councell to reenter and keepe his place: and finding the East Church not able to succour him, for that Constantius the Emperour supported his ene­mies with a strong hand:Atha. sought to the west Emperour and to al the west Bishops that his cause might be heard in a Councel. fled to the Bishop of the West, where Constans a reli­gious and curteous Prince, brother to Constantius, raigned, and made his com­plaint, as reason was he should; first to the Bishop of Rome, the cheefest man a­mongst them and the ringleader of the rest, with whom he was ioined in consort and communion as the right and true Patriarke of Alexandria, desiring no more but that his case might be heard, and the desperate and furious proceedings of his aduersaries against him examined in a iust and lawfull Councell. Which petition of Athanasius doth not proue the West Bishops to be controllers and ouerseers of such things as were done in the East, much lesse y^e Bishop of Rome to be supreme Iudge ouer all: but rather sheweth that the Church of Christ was guided by the common consent and mutuall agreement of both parts, as well East as West, indifferently balanced; and that the West Bishops might call for a reason of the sentence giuen against Athanasius, before they allowed the same, or receiued his successour to the felowship of their communion.

Socrat. lib. 2. Cap. 15.The ecclesiasticall historie saith otherwise; that Athanasius opened his cause to Iulius Bishop of Rome, and that hee vpon the prerogatiue of the Romane See wrote threatning letters in his behalfe, and restored him to his place, reprouing them that rashly deposed him.

Socrates as an Hi­storiographer noteth in fewe wordes the chiefe points, and chiefe persons: but if you will take the paines to reade the particular discourse of these thinges, which Athanasius writeth in defence of himselfe, you shal find that true which I say.

What shall we finde?

That the West Bishops were ioy­ned with Iulius in all this action, and nothing done without their Sinodal de­cree.

How proue you that?

Athanasius cause inti­mated to al the west Bishops.First the letters of credit which Athanasius brought with him to Rome from the Bishops of his communion in Egypt, Thebais, Lybia, Penta­polis, witnessing the manifold wrongs which he suffered, and earnestly crauing [Page 45] a dew reformation of the same, were written not to Iulius alone, but Omnibus vbique ecclesiae catholicae Episcopis, to all the Bishops of the Catholique Church wheresoeuer: hauing these words in the cōclusion; For this cause in a publike assemblie by the consent of vs all wrate wee these letters vnto you, praying your wisedomes in Christ to receiue this testimonie touching Athanasius, & to admit him to your fellowship and communion, and to bee moued with a zealous indignation against the Eusebians [his enemies] the authors of these disorders; and that such lewdnes and mischiefe preuaile no longer against the Church, vos certe vindices huius iniustitiae imploramus, we call for your help to be the reuengers of their vnrighteous dealing. Haec quidem Aegyptij ad om­nes & ad Episcopum Romanum Iulium scripsere: this they of Egypt wrate to all, and to Iulius the Bishop of Rome. So that in sight the complaint was made ge­nerally to them all.

But Iulius alone cited the contrarie part to appeare before him by a day limited,Iulius had the consent of both parts, that a councel should be called. and that argueth his authoritie ouer them that were not of his Prouince.

Iulius by the consent of both parts, and aduise of all the Bi­shops of Italie and other places neere him, appointed the matter to be heard in a Councell, and exhorted the aduersaries of Athanasius to bee present at the time and place prefixed.

What a mincing you make of this matter? Iulius ci­ted, that is Iulius exhorted them to come: Iulius heard the cause, that is Iulius called a Councell to heare it.

What a mountaine you make of a mole hill? I repeate the very wordes of Iulius, and good reason in his owne fact to be­leeue him best.

If he say so; but I doubt you mistake the words.

Then may you take them righter: but I am perfect, I misse them not. Heare first what Athanasius, Athanas. eadem Apolog. and then after what Iulius writeth. Quin & Eusebiani ad Iulium literas misere, & vt nos terrerent, Synodum conuocari iusserunt, & ipsi Iu­lio si vellet arbitrium causae detulerunt: The Eusebians also sent letters to Iulius, and the rather to fray vs, willed a Synode to be called, and Iulius himselfe to be Iudge in the cause, if he would. Which Socrates doeth not omit. Eusebius verò cum quod volebat perfecisset, Socrat. lib. 1. Cap. 11. legationem ad Iulium Romanum Episcopum misit, obsecrans vt ipse Iudex esset in causa Athanasij, & ad se litem hanc vocaret. Eusebi­us when he had done all that he woulde, sent messengers to Iulius Bishop of Rome, praying him to be Iudge in the cause of Athanasius, and to call for the hearing of this contention.

Athanasius aduersaries seeme to consent, that Iulius alone shoulde sit Iudge in this cause.

That Iulius as chiefe, but not that Iulius alone should examine this quarel. For they required to be heard in a common Coun­cell both of East and West Bishops.

As yet I see no such thing.

Say not so:Episto. Iulij ad eos qui ex An­tiochia scripse­runt citatur ab Athanasio Apologia 2. for Athanasius euen now told you, that his enemies, to fray him, in their letter to Iulius, willed a Councell to be held for this matter: and Iulius in his epistle replying to those that were gathered at Antioch the second tyme, writeth thus, What is there done worthie of offence? or what cause haue I giuen you, to whom I wrate, to be angrie? An quia adhortati vos sumus, vt ad [Page 46] Synodum occurreretis? Is it for that we exhorted you to meet vs at a Synode? The Bishops assēbled in the great Coūcel of Nice not without the wisedom of God, gaue leaue that the acts of one Synode myght be discussed in an o­ther, to this end, Iulius preten­deth not Pe­ters keyes for his authority. that both they which were Iudges, knowing a secōd exami­nation of the self same matter was to folow, should with al diligence weigh the cause; and those, against whom sentence was giuen, might cleerely con­fesse themselues to be condemned, not by any faction of the former Iudges, but iustly and worthily. And if this were an auncient custome and the me­morie therof renewed and put in writing by the great [Nicene] Councell, & you now will not suffer the same to take place with you, trewly you doe an vnseemly thing. For no equitie doth alow, that a few of you shuld abrogate a custome once receaued in the Church, & confirmed by [so great] a Synode, & yet that being granted you, the offence which you take is without al rea­son, for your Legats Macarius and Hesiochus, no way able to match those that Athanasius sent, but in euery thing conuicted and refuted by them, Concilium indici postularunt, literasque ad Eusebianos & Athanasium, Alexan­driam, quibus conuocarentur, mitti; vt coram omnibus iusto iudicio de causa cog­nosci posset; tunc enim se de Athanasio probaturos esse quod iam nequirent: requi­red a Councell to bee summoned, and letters to be sent to the Eusebians and to Athanasius at Alexandria, to giue them warning to come, that the cause might bee debated before all, in an euen and vpright iudgement: [adding] that they would then conuince Athanasius of those things wherin now they failed. Yea publikely in our presence Martyrius and Hesichius were con­founded, Athanasius Priestes readily answering them with great boldnes; This spirit differeth much from the late spirit of Rome. & to say the trueth, Martyrius and his side were alwayes put to the worst, Ac proinde Concilium generale postulauit: And for that cause he requested a gene­rall assemblie of Bishoppes. If therefore Martyrius and Hesichius [your a­gents] not requiring a Councell, I had exhorted you, that they which wrote to mee on either side might bee called to a Councell, namely in fauour of my brethren, which complayned they were oppressed: that motion of mine had beene honest and iust; for so much as it is acceptable to God & agreeable to the Canons: but now where those very men, whom you counted to be discreete and worthy to be trusted [with your message] were the first inciters of mee to cal you to a Synode, surely you ought not to take that in so ill part.

By these words, these two pointes are more than manifest. First that Iulius did not peremptorily commaund them to appeare before him, but exhorted them to meete in a lawfull Councell for the better discussing of matters in que­stion: Next, that for the warning of a Councel which should examine their acts, hee pretendeth not his supreme power ouer all the Church, nor his Lieutenant­ship to Christ, but groundeth himselfe on their consents, which were the chiefe authors of this tragedie, and citeth the Nicene Councel agreeing with the aun­cient vsage of the Church, that Synodes might discusse and redresse the wrongs [Page 47] done by Bishoppes.

You can not denie but Iulius heard their Legats, before the Bishoppes met.

I graunt, for his better information hee might heare them alone, but not to giue iudgement thereof without others:Idem in Epist. Iudij. so sayth Iulius himselfe. A­thanasius was neither condemned at Tyrus, nor present at Mareota, where you proceeded in his absence. And you know that the records of those acts bee very suspitious, and of no force, where one part onely was admitted [to proue]. Yet we, though it were so, for the more full discussing of the matter, did neither preiudice you that wrate against him nor those that wrate for him: but exhorted all as many as wrate, to present themselues here in iudgement, that all thinges might exactly bee skanned in a Synode. In the which Synode when the contrary side refused to appeare, Athanasius was hearde at large, and there receiued to the communion of all the West Church as right Bishoppe of Alexandria, notwithstanding his former depositi­on by the Bishoppes at Antioche, and the violent intrusion of an other in his place.

This you say, but this you proue not.

If Athanasius say the same,Athana. Apo­logia 2. Athana. heard and restored by a councel. it is proofe sufficient; and that you shall heare him say. Viton the Priest (whom Iulius sent for that purpose) brought with him to the councel moe than fiftie Bishops, where our defence was admitted and wee counted worthie to bee receiued to their communion and brotherly feast, and great indignation kindled against the Eusebians, to whome they willed Iulius to write backe [in his owne name] for that their letters were written to him [not to them.] And so Iulius did,The councel willed Iulius to write in his own name because the Arrians wrate to him and not to them. putting them to wit (which is the thing that you stagger at) that although his name were alone to the letters, yet the common consent, & ap­probation of the Synode wanted not to the matter. Notwithstanding, saith he, that I alone wrate to you, yet I wrate the iudgement and opinion, not of my selfe onely, but of all the Bishops of Italie, and of all in these quarters. The Bishops met at the time appointed, and were of that mynde which I nowe signifie to you againe: wherfore though I alone write, yet I would haue you knowe that I write the common opinion of them all. And his Epistle ended, This, sayth Athanasius, the Synode at Rome wrate by Iulius the Bi­shop of Rome. Idem in Epist. Iulij. Iulius clai­meth an e­qualitie with the East Bi­shops, no su­premacie ouer them.

So that all this while Iulius did nothing of himselfe without a Synode; neither did hee or the Synode challenge any superioritie ouer the East Bi­shops, but rather an equalitie with them; and for that cause might require to see the reason of their doings against Athanasius, before they would reiect him as no Bishop, and communicate with Gregorie that was placed in his seate. And so much the East Bishops should haue doone without asking. For where a prouinciall Synode bindeth no man out of the same Prouince, they were by the discipline and custome of the Church to sende their letters to the Bi­shops of euery Prouince, & namely to the chiefest; and to expect the general con­sent of their brethren, before they proceeded to the deposition of a Bishop, and so [Page 48] great Bishoppe as the Patriarke of Alexandria was, which is the thing that Iulius vrgeth them with.Ibidem in Episto. Iulij Si, vt dicitis, omnino in culpa fuerunt, oportuit secundum Canonem & non isto modo iudicium fieri: oportuit scribere omnibus nobis, vt ita ab om­nibus quod iustum esset decerneretur. Episcopi enim erant, & non vulgares ecclesiae, qui ista patiebantur. If, as you pretend, they were guiltie in deede, yet iudge­ment should haue gone forwarde according to the Canon [of the Church,] and not after this [strange] sort: They should haue written to all the west Bishops, & not to the Bishop of Rome alone. you should haue written to vs all, that that which had been iust might haue been determined by all. For they were Bi­shops, and no meane Churches, that were thus vsed. By this you see that in ayding and helping Athanasius, the Bishop of Rome did neither by worde nor deed take vpon him to be vicar generall to Christ on earth, nor supreme iudge of all men and matters in the Church, as nowe he doeth; but claymeth rather a societie with the East Bishops for himself and the rest of his prouince, as hauing no lesse interest in the Church than they had.

Socrat. lib. 2. Cap. 15. Idem lib. 3. Cap. 17.What say you then to the prerogatiue of the Romane See, and to that ecclesiastical Canon, which forbiddeth to meddle in the Church without the consent of the Romane Bishop?

The Bishop of Rome had this prerogatiue, that first he should be written vnto, by reason of his place, which was first;In Epist. Iulij. but not that he alone should be written vnto. So saith Iulius: Cur igitur, & in primis de Alexandria ciuitate, nihil nobis scribere voluistis? an igna­ri estis hanc esse consuetudinem, vt primùm nobis scribatur, vt hinc quod iustum est definiri posset? Why then would you write nothing to vs, & especially tou­ching the citie of Alexandria? Are you ignorant of this custome that you shoulde write to vs first, By reason his place was first and after to the rest. that hence, that which is iust, might bee deter­mined?

No better text: from Rome must bee determined what is right in the regiment of the Church.

A wise catch I promise you. Did you not heare Iulius euen now speake the same wordes of euery Bishoppe; Vt ab omnibus, quod iustum esset, decerneretur; that euery one might determine what was iust? So that Iulius by this had no greater authoritie than the rest: for right was to bee determined by them all.

The Canon of the Church made euery thing voyde that was done without the Bishop of Rome. Sozomen. lib. 3. Cap. 10.

That which you call a Canon, in deed was an order taken by the Bishops among thēselues for the better guiding of y^e Church by common consent, when as yet there were no Christian Magistrates; and the same was afterward liked and allowed of Godly Princes,In weightie matters the consent of al the Pa­triarks was to be requi­red. as the best way to keepe the Church in peace from quarrels and factions. And this it was. In waightie matters no prouinciall Councell might deale without consulting the rest of the Patriarkes, who straightway conferring with the Bishoppes of their Prouinces, wrate backe the generall opinion of themselues and their bre­thren. This if any Councell did omit, the Prouinces rounde about were at li­bertie to reiect their proceedings, if they saw cause. This Canon or kind of re­giment obserued in the Church, Iulius obiecteth against the councel of Antioch. [Page 49] Oportuit secundum Canonem iudicium fieri, Iudgement should haue proceeded according to the Canon: In Epistola Iulij. that is, Oportuit omnibus nobis scribere, vt ab omnibus quod esset iustū decerneretur: You should haue written to vs al, that that which was iust might haue beene concluded by all. And as by the Canon they should haue written to al, so first to the Bishop of Rome, by reason that his place was y^e first in order among the Patriarkes, which is all the prerogatiue that Iulius in his Epistle claymeth for himselfe and his See.Socrat. lib. 2. Cap. 17. & Sozome. lib. 3. Cap. 10. This is that ecclesiasticall Ca­non and priuilege, which Socrates and Sozomenus doe mention when they say the Councell of Antioch did against the Canons, in that they called not y^e Bi­shop of Rome to their assemblie.

The deposition of a Bishoppe was no matter of such importance that a Prouinciall Synode might not attempt it without the rest.The depositi­on of Atha­nasius a mat­ter of great weight.

Yes, the deposing of a Patriarke was in it selfe a matter of great weight, and required the consent of the rest, as appeareth by that which the Councell of Antioch long before this did against Paulus Samosatenus, where you shall finde the causes of his condemnation layde downe at large in their letters written to all Prouin­ces, and namely to Dionysius and Maximus Bishops of Rome and Alexandria:Euseb. lib. 7. Cap. 30. but yet the wrong offered Athanasius at this time touched the fayth & Church of Christ nearer than one mans iniurie.

Why?

The Arians by their shifts and practises had almost gotten the most part of the East Churches, and finding the two principall Archbishops of Constantinople and Alexandria greatly to hinder their enterprise, for that their prouinces were very wide, and many that stoutly defended the trueth, were shielded by them, they thought best to inuade them both at one time, thrusting Paulus from his Bishopricke by plaine force, and pretending a Canon of their owne making against Athanasi­us. Which if the West Bishops had quietly suffered without enterposing them selues and assisting their brethren, two parts of the worlde by their silence had beene drowned in Arianisme, and themselues in great danger not long to re­maine without the same infection. This respect made them earnest for Atha­nasius, as Sozomene noteth.Sozome. lib. 3. Cap. 7. The Bishops throughout the East, that fauou­red the Nicene faith, were deposed; and the cheefest Seates inuaded [by the Arrians] as Alexandria in Egypt, The Arrians sought by de­posing him to posses the East Church. Antioche in Syria, the Royal Citie [of Constan­tinople] in Hellespont. This the Bishop of Rome, & the Priests of the west tooke to be their reproch, and [therefore] very friendly entertayned Athanasius at his comming to them, and tooke vpon them the defence of his cause.

This is not all that Iulius did for Athanasius.

What els can you shew that hee did?

Hee called a generall Councell to determine this matter,Iulius when he coulde doe no good in Athanasius cause, be­sought the west Emperor to put to his helping hand. and made Constantius the Emperour glad to receiue Athanasius to his former seate.

By mine aduise you should haue left out this; it will come very short of your reckoning.

Not a whit.

Be not so per­emptorie.

What? was not this, that I say, done for Athanasius?

It was.

Who then besides Iulius could bring this to passe?

An o­ther if you could light on him.

What was he?

Constans the West [Page 50] Emperour.

Who sayth so besides you?

The three writers of the Church storie, which with one consent agree, that the West Emperour called the Councel, and threatened his brother if Athanasius and Paulus were not suf­fered to enioy their former places. Iulius when the letters which he sent tou­ching Paulus and Athanasius, Sozome. lib. 3. Cap. 10. did nothing preuaile with the East Bishoppes, opened their cause to Constans the Emperour. Constans wrote to his brother, that he should send some of the Bishops of the East, to shewe [him] the rea­son why these men were deposed. Three were chosen, who comming to Italie, went about to perswade the Emperour,Sozome. lib. 3. Cap. 11. that the Synode of the East Bishops had done well; and Constans perceiuing they had done vniustly, sent thē backe whence they came. And because Constans requiring this fauour at his brothers hands, that Athanasius & the rest with him might be restored, could not ob­taine so much; and those that were with Paulus and Athanasius getting to his presence besought him that a Synode might be called, it pleased the Empe­rour that the bishops of either side should meet at Sardica by a certaine day prefixed.

Athanasius with teares requesteth a councel of the west Em­perour. Theodoret. lib. 2. Cap. 4.It might please him they should do so, but how proue you y^e thither they came by his authoritie?

Athanasius going to Constans bewayled vnto him the violence that was offered the Apostolicke faith, Putting the Prince in mind of his fathers acts, that the greatest Councel that euer was, was called by him, & the determination of those fathers lawfully confirmed; beseech­ing the Emperour with teares to imitate his Father. Constans vpon the hea­ring of these thinges presently writeth to his brother, and warneth him to keepe inuiolably the inheritance of his fathers faith. Constantius moued with th [...]se letters, appointed a Councel to be held at Sardica, and willed the Bi­shops as wel of the East as the west to be their present. Socra. lib. 2. Cap. 20. The Empe­rours let­ters for A­thanasius restitution. After this Councel had likewise concluded for Paulus and Athanasius against their deposers, Con­stans wrate to his brother the resolution of the Synode, and exhorted him to restore them to their places; which when Constantius delayed and differred, the West Emperour offereth him this choyse, either to restore them their Churches, or if he woulde not, to looke for hostilitie and warre. Wherupon the [East] Emperour, being driuen to this streit, sent for Athanasius and his fellowes, by three seuerall letters, and not only restored them, but abolished all things that might any way be preiudiciall to them.

By this you see Iulius had no power to cal a general Councel, but Athanasi­us was fayne to begge it of the Prince with teares; and the Bishoppe of Rome was not then taken for the last and supreme Iudge on earth: But the Councel sate in Iudgement after him, where matters were ended by number of voyces.

Yet we saide trueth, that Athanasius called for ayde of Iulius.

I said as truely that you florish with generalities and ambiguities, & conclude nothing. For what haue you gotten nowe more than we graunted at first? or which way doth this example perteyne to that which is in question betwixt vs?

You make too light of our proofes.

Then put you more weight to [Page 51] them; I take them as I find them, and for ought that I see, you can not mend them.

Well: esteeme them as you lift, they proue that the Bishop of Rome was euer a sure refuge for the Catholiques against heretikes, which he neuer perfourmed more worthily than in our dayes.

I thinke in deede Rome was neuer fuller of deuises and practises than at this present; Antichrist is so carefull for his kingdome, lest it fall, that hee spareth neither men, nor mo­ney to be reuenged on those that shrinke from him;Ambros. de incarnatio. Domin. sacra­ment. Cap. 5. Cyprian. sermo. 5. de laps [...]. but when all is done, God will strike the stroke.

No doubt he will, but neuer for you, that bee so shamefully fallen from his Church.

You be more shamefully fallen from his word; & consequently from faith, which is the foundation of the Church: neither can he be ioyned to the Church, which is seuered from the Gospel. But we go from the matter, your examples bee not yet all discussed.

Returne when you will.

Chrysostome and Augustine, you say, asked ayde of Innocentius. What Chry­sostome re­quested of Innocentius.

They did so.

Ayde they might aske, and he might yeeld; and yet neither make for your purpose.

That were maruaile.

None at all▪ Chrysostome, whom you first name, sought for helpe as Athanasius did, but the displeasure which Arcadius the East Emperour had conceiued against him was so great, that Innocentius coulde not preuaile.

It serueth our turnes, that Chrysostome did seeke to the Bishop of Rome, notwithstan­ding Arcadius by force did ouerbeare him.

Chrysostome sought no­thing, but that his cause might bee heard in a full Synode before indifferent Iudges.

It maketh much for Innocentius supremacie, that Chry­sostome sought this at his handes.

You must make your foundati­on surer, before your building will stand. You sawe by the last example of A­thanasius, that the Bishop of Rome and the west Church might reiect & refuse the sentence of any Prouinciall Synode giuen against the Patriarke, vnlesse their consents were first had; And euen the very same doeth Chrysostome re­quest of Innocentius, that he would neither admit, nor allowe the proceedings of his aduersaries against him, as good; nor communicate with him, that was chosen by them to succeede in his place.

This still confirmeth that nothing was good,The Bishops of the west Church were to consent before the sentence could be gi­uen. if the Bishop of Rome did dissent.

And still that inferreth nothing, but y^• the Bishop of Rome and his Prouince were a part of the Church, and by reason and equitie were to giue their voyces as wel as others, before the rest might conclude any thing that did concerne, or should bynde the whole Church. And this is strange that where the Bishoppe of Rome for himselfe and his Prouince seeketh en equali­tie with others, as a part of the Church; you frame him alone a superioritie ouer all others, as the heade of the Church. Your examples shewe this, that others without him could not bind y^e whole Church, because y^e consēt was not general; & your conclusion must be this, that he without all others, as Christes Uicege­rēt in earth, might dispose y^e whole Church at his pleasure. See you no differēce betwixt these two positions?

I confesse they differ, but can you shew that [Page 52] others withstoode him, as well as he withstood them?

Yea that I can.

Arians perhaps or Donatists.

Nay, Catholike fathers & Coun­cels.

Shew that, and you say somewhat to the matter.

That I will shew when your proofes are ended. I thinke not good to mingle yours and ours together.

Ours I graunt, are much after one sort, and therefore I long to heare yours.

No hast but good, anon you shall: you would faine I see ridde your hands.

You shall well know the contrarie. Say what you can.

I say nothing but that you gaine litle by Chrysostoms example.

Doe we not? These be Chrysostomes wordes to Innocentius: Where­fore least this confusion inuade euery nation vnder Heauen, Chrysost. Episto. 1. ad Innocent. tomo 5. I beseech you write, that these vniust proceedings, both in our absence and when wee refused not iudgement, may be of no force; as in deed of themselues they are not: and let them which haue doone this wrong, feele the censure of the ec­clesiasticall Lawes, and suffer vs that were neither conuicted, nor charged with any crime, nor so much as conuented, to enioy your letters [of commu­nion] and charitie, and likewise of all others, whose fellowship wee had be­fore. Doeth he not in these wordes request Innocentius to pronounce the sen­tence voyd, that was giuen against him, & to remoue the authors of this disorder from the communion?

To Dissent from it was enough to vndoe it; because neither he nor his prouince were acquainted with it: to excommunicate the doers, was nothing els, but to communicate no longer with them; which e­uery Bishop and prouince might do, when any wilful breach of the Canons was offered.

This petition was made to Innocentius alone, and not to the re­sidue of the West Bishops.

If Innocentius alone were spoken to, the matter is not great: Sure it is the Bishop of Rome neither did, nor might deale in these cases without the consent of his brethren; for feare, least when the mat­ter came to voyces as in the end it must, his owne prouince shoulde take stitch against him. But howe can you proue, that he alone was spoken to?

The words be plaine.Chrysost. vt supra. Obsecro vt scribas: I beseech you to write in y^e singular nūber.

What if a man should distrust the print or the Copie, woulde it not tempt your patience?

Haue we not good cause, if you beginne to discredite euery thing that maketh against you?

Whether I suspect the place vppon iust occasion or no, your selfe shall bee Iudge. Chrysostome in this Epistle hauing reported at large the violent and enormous rage of his ene­mies against him and his adherents, commeth at last to make his petition not to Ionnocentius alone,Eadem episto. ad Innocentium. Chrysost. ma­keth this pe­tition to all the west Bishops. as you conceiue; but generally to the West Bi­shoppes. Igitur Domini maxime venerandi & pij, cum haec ita se habere didi­ceritis, studium vestrum & magnam diligentiam adhibite, quo retundatur haec, quae in ecclesias irrupit, iniquitas: Therefore most reuerent and religious Lordes, since you see what is done, put to your endeuours and diligence, that this wickednes which is broken into the Church, may be beaten back. Quippe si mos hic inualuerit, scitote quod breui transibunt omnia. Quapropter ne confusio haec omnem, quae sub celo est, natione minuadat, obsecro, [vt scribatis] quod haec [Page 53] tam iniquè facta robur non habeant: nobis verò literis vestris & charitate vestra frui concedite. For if this grow to a custome, knowe you that al things wil shortly come to nought: & therfore least this confusion attempt euery nation vnder heauen, I beseeche [not one of you, but al] you, to write that these things so vniustly doone, may be taken as voide, and you [all] graunt that we may en­ioy your letters & your fauours. And so goeth he on to the very end with verbes of the plural number, leauing off with these words: Haec omnia cum ita se habere intellexeritis a dominis meis pientissimis fratribus nostris Episcopis, Ibidem. obsecro vt praeste­tis, id quod petent officij. Al these things when you shall perceaue to be true by these my Lordes and most godly brethren the Bishops [whom I haue sent] I beseeche you giue them that assistance which they shall aske. The whole petition from the first word to the last is made to them al without exception: the selfe same sentence, where hee prayeth them to write hath these woordes,A verbe of the singular number thrust in a­mong verbes of the plural, to claw the Bishop of Rome. Theodores. lib. 5. Cap. 34. nobis verò literis vestris frui concedite, you [all] graunt vs your letters. Now whether, obsecro vt scribas, can stand with these wordes literis vestris frui concedite, or ra­ther obsecro vt scribatis, I referre it to your selfe: this you can not denie but hee requireth ayde of them all, and prayeth their common letters, which is enough to shew that Chrysostome ment Innocentius shoulde take with him the gene­rall consent of the West Bishops. And so he did. For this wrongful and vnrigh­teous dealing against Chrysostome, sayth Theodorete, the Bishops of Europe did greatly detest, and therefore seuered themselues from the communion of those that were the doers thereof.

I graunt they did, but Innocentius alone did excommunicate the chiefe doers euen Arcadius the Emperour, Eudoxia the Empresse, Arsacius & Theo­philus the Patriarkes of Constantinople and Alexandria. A bul absurd­ly forged to make men beleeue the Pope did ex­cōmunicate the Emperour for Chrysost. banishment. Nicepho. lib. 13. Cap. 34. Cronologia Canisij. The Bull proued to be forged. Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 18.

Who told you so?

The bull is extant to this day.

A bull of that antiquitie were newes in deede.

You may soone finde him.

Where?

In the 13. booke and 34. Chapter of Nicephorus ecclesiasticall historie.

I was afraide you would haue quoted Socrates or Sozomene.

Nicepho­rus is as good.

Not by ten parts of twelue.

Why not?

Besides that he loadeth the whole historie of the Church with many fables and visions, he liued thirteene hundred yeres after Christ, as your owne frinds con­fesse: which in comparison of the rest, is but yesterday. Therefore if Socrates, Theodorete and Sozomene, which wrote at that very time when these thinges were done, report no such matter, I would faine know, which way Nicephorus, that came a thousand yeere after them could light on a true constat of this eccle­siasticall censure.

Perhaps he found it in some auncient Librarie.

As though the Patriarks and Princes of Greece would suffer such a president against themselues to lie quiet in their Libraries a thousand yeres.

That reason of yours is but coniecturall.The first yere of Chrysost banishment. Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 19.

Then heare that which is effectual; and you shal see the framer of this bull proue himselfe a calfe. The twentieth day of Iune Honorius and Aristinetus being Consuls, Chryso­stome was caried from his Church into banishment by the Emperours Edict, [Page 54] as Socrates witnesseth. The thirtieth of September the same yere, a migh­tie hayle fell in Constantinople, and the suburbes thereabout; and the fourth day after the hayle [Eudoxia] the Empresse died. The same yeare the Empresse died. Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 20. The second yeare of his banishment. Eodem Capite The third yeare. Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 21. The next yere the eleuenth day of Nouember, when Stelichon the second time & Anthemius were Con­suls, Arsacius died. The next yere after that which was the sixt of Arcadius and the first of Probus, a very religious man named Atticus was chosen [Bi­shop of Constantinople.] The next yeere, which was the seuenth of Honorius, and the second time of Theodosius Consulship, the fourtenth day of Nouem­ber Iohn Chrysostome died in banishment. You doubt not of this accompt I trust.

As yet I see no cause to doubt it. Socrates was then aliue, when these things were in action.

The same order of their deaths you shall finde in Sozomene, a writer of that age also when these troubles were hottest.

What then after all this?

Your solemne Bull auoucheth Chrysostome to be dead,The fourth yeare Chryso. himselfe died. Sozome. lib. 8. cap. 27. & 28. The Bull sup­poseth the Empresse to be liuing after Chrysostoms death. Niceph. lib. 13. Cap. 34. A blind Pro­phet to threa­ten that shee should shortly die which was dead foure yeares before. and Eudoxia to be liuing after him, which died three whole yeres before him.

What? It doeth not I hope.

Marke the wordes: Tamet si enim beatus Iohānis vitam reliquit, in eterna tamen secula immor­talis vitae haereditatem est consecutus, Verùm illa excipiet & presentem hic paenam, & futurum sempiternum supplicium post non multos hosce dies ei adueniens. Itaque ego minimus, & peccator cui thronus magni Apostoli Petri creditus est, segrego & reijcio te & illam a perceptione immaculatorū mysteriorum Christi. For although blessed Iohn [Chrysostomde] parted this life, yet hath he gottē the inheritance of an immortal life for euer: but Eudoxia shall receaue a present punishment in this world, and eternal paines that shall befall her afore many dayes be past. Therfore I, though the least and a sinner, to whom the throne of Peter the great Apostle is committed, do segregate and cut off thee [O Emperour] & her from receauing the vndefiled mysteries of Christ, &c. How think you, was the contriuer of this Bull wel in his wits, to threaten that the Empresse should shortly die, which was dead long before; & to put her from receauing the Communion, after she had beene three yeres buried?

Perhaps Innocentius knew not of her death.

Then suerly was Innocentius all that while a sleepe: for the continuall entercourse betweene the two Cities both for temporall and ecclesiasticall affaires was so great, the per­son so famous, the time so long, that no meane man in Rome could bee ignorant of her death.Sozome. lib. 8. Cap. 28. Besides that Innocentius Legats were at Constantinople to in­treate Arcadius for a Councell, a litle before Chrysostome died, and there vn­lesse they wanted both eyes and eares, they could not choose but learne, that the Empresse was dead.

She was then liuing as Nicephorus saith.

The more he fableth,Niceph. lib. 13. Cap. 33. the lesse credite he deserueth. Eudoxia died before Arsa­cius, and after his death was Atticus chosen: then how could she bee liuing when Atticus was Bishop, in whose time the Legats of Innocentius came to intreat for Chrysostome?

Let Nicephorus answere for himselfe. I layde before you what I finde in him.

If this be all you can say for his defence, giue vs leaue to tell you that this Bull bearing Innocentius name is some foolish and late forgerie deuised to perswade men that Popes in those dayes coulde quaile Emperours, which God knoweth is nothing so. Next for Chrysostomes cause,Chrysostom appealed not to the Bishop of Rome, but to a Councel. Socra. lib. 6. Cap. 15. as it helpeth you litle, so doeth it hinder you much. For first Chrysostome when himselfe and his Clergie were called to appeare before the Synode, where Theophilus the Pa­triarke of Alexandria his mortall enemie was the chiefe man, appealed from them, not to the Bishoppe of Rome, but to a generall Councell. So sayth So­crates. Iohannes eos, a quibus vocabatur, tanquam inimicos exceptione recusabat, & vniuersalem Synodum appellabat. Chrysostome refused those that called him vp­pon this exception, that they were his enemies, and appealed to a ge­nerall Councell. So sayth Chrysostome himselfe:Episto. 1. ad Innocentium. Though wee were absent and appealed to a Synode, and sought for iudgement, and refused not audience but manifest enimitie; yet [Theophilus] receiued accusors a­gainst mee, excommunicated such as helde with mee, and tooke libels at all their hands which had not yet purged themselues of such crimes, as were layde to their charge; al which things are contrarie to the lawes and Canons.

Next when Innocentius saw the matter could not be ended but in a general Councel,Sozome. lib. 8. Cap. 28. Ibidem. The Popes legates sent awaie with reproch. They were punished by the Princes law that did communicate with the Bishop of Rome. Niceph. lib. 13. Cap. 30. Sozome. lib. 8. Cap. 24. by reason y^e three Patriarks of Constantinople, Antioche & Alexan­dria were against him, he sent Legats to Honorius and Arcadius, to beseech them that a Synode might be had, and the time and place appointed. Wher­in his supplication was so litle regarded, that his Legats were sent away with reproch as disturbers of the west Empire, and Chrysostome caried farther off in banishment than before.

Lastly when such as fauoured Chrysostome in the East parts, would not cō ­municate with his enemies, but ioyned themselues in communion with the Bi­shop of Rome, who likewise seuered himselfe from those that were the begin­ners of this garboyle; Arcadius made this Law: If any Bishop refuse to com­municate with Theophilus, Atticus and Porphyrius, hee shall loose both his Church and his goods: If any that beare office, they shall forfeite their dignitie: If any Souldier, hee shall lose his seruice: If any of the common people, let them bee fyned and exiled.

Will you nowe trust Ni­cephorus?

Sozomene in effect sayth the same. For the communion of Arsacius, Porphyrius, and Theophilus, at the suite of the Nobles, there was a lawe made, that no Christians should meete at prayers out of their Churches, and those that woulde not communicate with these [three Patriarkes] should bee ex­pelled. Theodoret. lib. 5. Cap. 34. Chrysost. ene­mies were men of good accompt in the church. So smally was Innocentius communion at that time respected, that the followers of it were sharply punished.

You know what manner of men they were that did it.

Such as you may not easily despise. Entending to write the wrong done to Chrysostome, sayth Theodorete, I am forced to shrinke at the doers [Page 56] thereof for their other vertues. Socrat. lib. 7. Cap. 2. Theodor. lib. 5. Cap. 35. Atticus, as Socrates confesseth, was a very learned, religious, and wise man. Porphyrius, sayth Theodorete, left many monuments of his benignitie, being a man endewed with excellent wise­dome. Arcadius, besides that Chrysostome calleth him after his banishment, Christianissimum & pientissimum Regem, Epistola 1. ad Innocentium. Socrat. li. 6. Cap. 23. a most Christian and Godly prince: a litle before his death wan estimation of holynes not without the admiration of a great multitude saued from destruction by his prayers. Theophilus, Epi­phanius and others that held tooth and nayle against him were no babes in the Church of Christ. [...]eo. Epist. 64. & 69. Cyrillus a famous father was after long time with much a­doe drawen to yeeld thus much, that Chrysostomes name should be rehearsed in the Catalogue of those that had bene Bishops.Niceph. lib. 14. Cap. 27. Arsacius, if Cyrillus may bee tru­sted, was a blessed man and most worthie of commendation.

You goe about to deface Chrysostome by commending his enemies.

It is the least part of my thought:Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 21. Chrysost. very passio­nate. and yet Socrates doth not altogether excuse him, in saying hee was a man Iracundiae magis quàm reuerentiae indulgens, more addicted to serue his passions, than to reuerence any person. And sure­ly the wordes that he spake of the Empresse in his sermon openly before all the people, Againe Herodias is madde, againe she rageth, againe shee daunceth, againe she wil haue Iohns head in a dish, Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 18. were very bitter; but my meaning is to shewe they were great and good men in the Church, that about Chrysostoms quarrell, were it right, were it wrong, neglected the communion of the Bishop of Rome.

Though they made light of it in this tumult and faction, yet Augustine, Hierom, and others did highly esteeme it.

The communion and felow­ship of Christian loue and peace may not rashly be broken with any Church, es­pecially not with the chiefe and principall Churches, vnlesse the cause be weigh­tie and vrgent; but looke whē the Bishop of Rome attempted any thing against the faith or y^e Canons, & tel me then what accompt they made of him.

That you must looke out, I know no such thing.

So will I, when my course commeth, but yours as yet is not ended.

Myne shall not bee long.

As short as you will. I thinke the best be spent.

Augustine and the fathers assembled in the Mileuitan Councell aske helpe of Innocentius for the condemnation of Pelagius and his heresie.

The Bishops of Africa themselues in this and an other Councell helde at Car­thage condemned the error of Pelagius, What help Saint Austen and others sought of Innocentius. as repugnant to the Scriptures, and iniurious to the grace of God. And because it was a matter of faith that indiffe­rently concerned all, they thought it necessarie to aduertise the Bishop of Rome what they had done, and to pray him also to condemne the same: that as the in­fection was farre spred and found many defenders; so the condemnation thereof might be generall, and ratified by the publique liking of the Bishops in euery prouince. What can you gather by this, but that it was then the manner of the Church, as in trueth it was, by their letters sent too and fro, both to aske and to giue their mutuall consents, for the suppressing of errors, that dayly [Page 57] sprang, when generall Councels coulde not bee called? In which case the Bishop of Rome both in respect of his Citie, that was Imperiall; and his See, that was Apostolicall, vsed to receiue the first letters.

The Councell of Carthage writeth thus to Innocentius: Inter August. Epist. 90. They reque­sted Innocen­tius to concur with them in the condem­nation of Pe­lagianisme. Hoc itaque gestum charitati tuae intimandum duximus, vt statutis nostrae mediocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur auctoritas pro tuenda salute multorum: That which was done, we thought good to intimate to your charitie, that to the decrees of our meannesse, the authoritie of your Apostolike See might be added, for the sauing of many from infection.

First they for their partes decreed against Pelagius without the Bishop of Rome; next they seeke the consent of the Bishop of Rome, not to make that good which they had done, but to preuaile the rather with many that were out of their Prouince.Idem Epist. 90. Error ipse & impietas quae tam multos assertores habet per diuersa dispersos, etiam auctoritate Aposto­licae sedis anathematizanda est: This error and impietie which hath so many fauorers dispersed in so many places, had neede be condemned by the cre­dit and authoritie of your Apostolike See.

Innocentius saith they did but their dueties.

A man might soone intreate Innocentius to take enough vpon him, and yet the worst he saith is this:Inter August. Epist. 93. The Bishops of Rome will quickly take enough vpon them. What is ment by referring matters to Peter. Arbitror omnes fratres & Episcopos nostros, quoties fidei ratio ventilatur, non nisi ad Petrum, id est sui nominis & honoris authorem referre debere, velut nunc retulit vestra dilectio: I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops when any matter of faith is in question, ought to referre the same to none but to Peter the author of their office and honor, as now your kindnesse hath done. Where by referring to Peter he did not meane as you do, that all faith and Re­ligion should depende on the Popes sleeue; but that when they had concluded as they saw cause, they should giue him intelligence to this ende, that he might cō ­cur with them for the better repressing of heresie with full consent. Now that which Innocentius made but a thought of, you since that time proclaime for a Gospell.

Innocentius would not thinke so without some ground.

Thoughts are weake proofes, when the case is our owne. And Innocentius Epistles in answere of these two Councels,Censura in E­pist. 90. & 93. Erasmus noteth for want of words, wit and learning, requisit for so great a Prelate.

Erasmus is very bolde with the Fathers.

Your decretall Epistles be euen such for the most part, mary that is not to this purpose.

Basill is the next man in your beadrole, who called, as you say, for helpe of Liberius, Felix and other Bishops of Italie;Basill wrote to the West Bishops in ge­nerall, but ne­uer to the Bi­shop of Rome but can you tell vs where we shall finde all these thinges that you affirme?

In his Epistles.

There be foure or fiue Epistles of his written to the West Bishops in general, and to the Bishops of Italie and Fraunce, for succor and helpe; where the Bishop of Rome perhaps is included as one amongst the rest, but neuer intreated, nor so much as named, asunder from the rest. And here may you learne of Basill, the cause why good men being oppressed in the East Church by the craft and power of heretikes or enimies, sought to the West for ayde and assistance. Not [Page 58] that they tooke the Bishop of Rome for supreme Iudge of all doubts and doc­trines,The end why the East Bi­shops sought to the West. as left in Christs steede; but that the number & concorde of the West Bishops might temper and hinder the malice of their aduersaries, and bring their quarels to be decided in an open and euen Councell.

Basilij epistola 48. ad Athan.So Basill aduiseth Athanasius to do. For the experience that I haue had in things, I know this to be the only way to get help, that our Churches are linked with the West Bishops. For if they will readily shew the same zeal for our Coūtries, which they did against one or two, that were diffamed in the West, perhaps somwhat wil be done that shall generally profit all; whereby those that are in authority may be moued to reuerence their number, & the people euery where wil follow thē without contradiction. And Basil himself writing to thē:Basilij Epist. 61. occidentalibus frasribus. As much cōfort & helpe as you can, saith he, delay not to yeeld to the distressed and afflicted Churches. As we thinke the concord & vnitie, which you enioy there among your selues, to be our own happines; so ought you to labor with vs in these dissentions which assault vs. If then there be any comfort of loue, if any communion of the spirit, if any bowels of pitie, be mo­ued to helpe vs: take ye the zeale of godlines, & deliuer vs from this tempest.

And describing at large the miserable state of the Churches thereabout The principles of godlines, saith he, be ouerthrowen, the rites of religion peruerted, Basilij Epist. 69 Italicis ac Galli [...]. faith it selfe in daunger, godlie preachers put to silence, euery blasphemous mouth is open; holy thinges are prophaned, and those that are sound amōg the people flee the house of prayers as in the which impietie is published. Therefore while yet some stand, before a perfect and full ship­wrack oppresse the Church, hastē vnto vs, hasten at the lēgth yet. What you shall do to help vs we neede not tell you, but onely this, that you must make speed, & the presence of many brethren will be requisite for this matter, to this end that they which come may make a full and iust Synode. Basilij epist. 70. Galliae & Ita­liae episc. This is the chiefest thing that we require, that by your meanes the troubles of our coū ­tries may be knowen to the Emperours own person, or if that be hard, that some of you come to see & comfort the afflicted. The thinges that we spake, many suspect, Marke what thinges Basill requested of the West Bi­shops. Basilij epist. 74. occidentali­bus episc. The greater number, and the further off, the lesse suspected of the people. Ibidem. as proceeding of priuate contention; you the farther you dwel off, the more credit you haue with the people. If therfore many of you with one consent shal decree the same, it is euident that the verie number of you concurring in one minde with vs, shall cause all men to receiue this doctrine without any doubting.

You see what helpe Basill asked of the West Bishops, making no mention of the Bishop of Rome, but praying them all to ioyne togither, and to shewe their zeales for the truth either by meeting in a ful Synod for the condēnation of such errors, as were newly risen in the church; or by writing their letters to the East Bishops, that the teachers & embracers of those impieties should be seuered frō the communion of the faithfull vntill their amendment. The redresse of these things we seeke for at your hands, the which you shall performe, if it please you to write to all the East Churches, that those which in this sort haue cor­rupted [Page 59] the doctrine of truth be then admitted to the communiō, when they correct their errors; & if they will not be brought from this innouation, but frowardly continue the same, then the rest to depart from them. We know it behoued vs to be with you, as assessors to your wisedoms, and in common to consider how these things should be handled: but these times do not per­mit that, and the differing of it would be daungerous, for that their poison taketh hold apace.

But Basill conferring with Athanasius howe to helpe the Church, saith;Basilij epist. 52. ad Athanasiū. I haue thought it meete, that the Bishop of Rome be written vnto, to consider of our state, and to giue vs his counsel; and because it is a matter of more difficultie to sende some thence by the common decree of a Synode, The Bishop of Rome might counsell but not cōmaund. he himselfe vsing his owne authoritie in this matter may chose men both a­ble to indure the iourney, & fit for the mildnesse & easinesse of their dis­positions, to correct those that here with vs are wrested awry, or started a­side. This proueth that the Bishop of Rome had authoritie sufficient of him­selfe without a Synode to send Legattes to reforme things amisse in the East Churches, which is cleane against your assertion.

You mistake the matter for lacke of due marking the circumstances. When these troubles were first beginning,Why Basill required mes­sengers from the West pa­triarke. before they came to that extremi­tie, which after fell out, Basill knowing that the credit and opinion of the West Church might stay many from falling, and reduce others that were not too far gone, because it would be long to tarie the assembling of a Synode, and the eni­mie perceiuing their intent would hinder the fruit of their labours: wisheth that the Bishop of Rome woulde vse his discretion in chosing some that were fit for this purpose, and sende them very closely to see what good might be done by gentle and faire perswasions.

You qualifie the text with your owne additions.

You shall find them expressed in Basils owne wordes if you weigh them well. First he woulde haue the Bishop of Rome written vnto, to consider their state, & to giue thē counsell, what to do. Basil epist. 52. Next, because it is hard to haue some sent by the com­mon decree of a Synode, he vsing his owne authoritie in this [so small] a matter, may choose men fit, &c. And that no man knowing of it, without any stir, let them come secretly by Sea to those that are here, least the ene­mies of peace discrie their comming. Lastly they fitting and applying their speach to content euery man, with mildnesse and gentlenes may re­ctifie such of our side as tread awry. So that these messengers should bee but mediators and procurers of peace betweene those that were of the same reli­gion & ioyned in communiō with the West Churches. Whē they come which by Gods grace shalbe sent, Ibidem. let them not occasion any schismes in the chur­ches, but rather by all meanes draw those that be of one religion to vnity. Care must be had, that all things be borne with, to win peace; & that the Church of Antioch in any case be prouided for; least that which is yet syn­cere in her, bee weakened & rent in peeces through respect of persons. [Page 60] meaning the schisme at Antioch where the Catholikes had diuided themselues and their Churches, some cleauing to Miletius, and some to Paulinus.

You could neuer speake it in a better time. Upon this and other such occasions I remember S. Hierom consulteth Damasus the Bishop of Rome, both what to beleeue, and with whom to communicate.

Indeede S. Hieroms name is next,S. Hierom cō ­sulting Da­masus. and if he serue your turnes he doth more for you than al the rest of the Fathers besides: but was Hierom in his old-age to seeke what to beleeue?

I say not so; but that touching the faith and communion of the Church he submitted himselfe to the Bishoppe of Rome. His wordes are worth the noting.Hiero. Damas. Episto. tom. 2. Because the East parts are togither by the eares by an in­ueterate madnesse of the people, and Foxes there do roote vp the Vineyard of Christ, therefore thought I best to consult Peters chaire, and the faith which was praysed by the Apostles mouth, thence desiring foode for my soule, whence long ago I receiued the garments of Christ. I know not Vi­talis, I refuse Miletius, I care not for Paulinus; hee that gathereth not with you, skattereth; that is, he that is not Christes, is Antichristes. And hauing opened his griefe, and shewed what was demaunded at his handes by the East Bishops in the matter of the Trinitie, he concludeth:Ibidem. I beseech your blessed­nesse by him that was crucified, euen the Sauiour of the world, and by the Trinitie, three persons of one and the same substance, that by your letters you will appoint me whether I shall confesse [there bee three Hypostases in one diuine nature] or denie the same; and also that you will signifie with which of those [three] at Antioch I ought to communicate. And vrging the same matter the second time.Epist. sequent. ad Damasum. Miletius, Vitalis, and Paulinus say they be ioi­ned in communion with you. I could beleeue them if one [and no mo] said it; but now either two, or all three lie. Therefore I beseech your blessed­nesse by the Crosse of the Lord, by the necessarie ornament of our faith, by the passion of Christ, that by your letters you will signifie with whom I should communicate in Syria. Despise not the soule, for which Christ died. Giue me leaue to be as long in repeating the wordes of S. Hierom, as you were euen now in alleadging S. Basill.

With a good will, you spend but a little the more time, and we shall haue day enough. Mary now you haue saide all, marke first; that most of these praises be not seuerall to the Citie of Rome, but generall to the West Church. The vnthriftie children [of the East] haue wasted, Epist. ad Da­masum prior. S. Hierom preferreth the West Church before the East as more syncere in faith; and not Rome before all the world. saith he, their patrimonie: onely with you [in the West] is the inheritance of your Fathers kept vndi­minished. There the good ground yeeldeth an hundred fold increase, that still resembleth the purenesse of the Lordes seede: here the corne that was cast into the furrowes doth degenerate into tares and oates. Nowe in the West the Sonne of righteousnesse shineth, in the East, Lucifer that fell, hath set his throne aboue the starres. You are the light of the world, the salt of the earth, the vessels of siluer and gold: here are the wodden and earthen pots that staie for the yron rod and vnquenchable fire. This comparison [Page 61] he maketh, as you see, not betweene all other places and Rome, but between the East and West Churches; preferring the one many degrees before the other. Secondly the reason why Hierom himselfe depended so much on the Church of Rome, was, as he saith, for that hee was baptized in the Citie of Rome; and therefore as one of that Citie still desireth thence to bee fed in Christ, where he was first cloathed with Christ. Thirdlie the pointes that hee doubted of, and sought to be directed in, were no matters of doctrine nor Principles of faith, but a question of wordes, and a dissention about the Bishopricke of Antioch: for the which trifles, who can blame Hierom if he were loth to lose the commu­nion of that Citie, where hee was Christened? And as Hierom here honoreth the Church of Rome for keeping her faith, so elsewere he taketh vp roundly both the Citie and Clergie of Rome when occasion was offered.

And in this verie place by your leaue he protesteth that he followeth no man as chiefe,Ibidem. much lesse as head of the Church, but onely Christ. Ego nullum primum nisi Christum sequens, beatitudini tuae, id est cathedrae Petri communione consocior: I following none chiefe, but Christ; hold the fellowship of communion with your blessednesse, that is with Peters chaire. S. Hierom sought no re­solution in faith at Da­masus mouth, but letters to keepe him frō trouble in a strange place. Ibidem. Neither doth hee pray the Bi­shop of Rome to appoint him what he shall beleeue touching the Trinitie, as if Damasus word were the rule of his faith; but where he confessed in the Trini­tie three persons subsisting of one and the same substance, with the Councell of Nice, and the whole West Church: and certaine Bishops of the East not ther­with content vrged him precisely to graunt the worde tres hypostases; and for sticking at it, traduced him as an heretike, his request to the Bishop of Rome is, vt siue dicendarum, siue tacendarum hypostaseon detar autoritas; that he might be licenced to vse, or refuse that word, without being molested at their hands any farther. When we aske them, saith Hierom, what they meane by tres hypostases, they say, three persons subsisting: we aunswere that wee beleeue the same. Ibidem. Non sufficit sensus, ipsum nomen efflagitant; & quia vocabula non e­discimus, haeretici iudicamur. It is not enough to beleeue so, they vrge the very word it selfe; and because we can not frame our selues to [these new] wordes, wee bee charged with heresie. So that Hierom craued Damasus letters and authoritie for his quietnesse, least hee should bee troubled in Syria where he lay among strangers, for a word that he suspected to be skant sounde. The other petition that he maketh is but to know, which of those three at An­tioch were ioyned in communion with the Church of Rome, and the West Bi­shops; that he might safely communicate with that side. Graunt these two ca­ses wherein Hierom prayeth helpe of Damasus, and what are you the neerer?

Nay, graunt the wordes that Hierom speaketh in his Epistle, and see what then will follow.Ibidem.

What wordes?

Cathedrae Petri commu­nione consocior; super illam Petram edificatam Ecclesiam scio. Quicunque extra hanc domum agnum comederit, prophanus est. Si quis in Arca Noe non fuerit, peri­bit regnante diluuio: I hold the communion of Peters chaire [that is of the Church of Rome] vpon that rocke I know the Church to be built. Whoso­euer [Page 60] [...] [Page 61] [...] [Page 62] shall eat the [Paschall] lambe out of that house, is a prophane per­son. If any man be not in Noahs Arke when the flood riseth, he shalbe drow­ned. This is as much as we do affirme, or could desire for the Church of Rome: graunt this, and the quarrell betwixt vs shall soone cease.

You be so hastie when you heare of Peters chayre, that you neuer looke at Christ himselfe, though hee stande in your way. For Hierom in the same sen­tence protesteth, that although he keepe the fellowship of communion with Pe­ters chaire,Epist. ad Da­masum. yet he followeth none chiefe but Christ. Vpon that rocke I am sure, saith he, the Church is built. Why may not these words now be referred as well to Christ, as to Peter?

For shame, what an euasion this is?

Nay shame to your selues that are so wedded to your own conceits. The words are more likely to belong to Christ than to Peter, Super illam Petram in Hierō stand fitter to be referred to Christ than to Peter. if you soberly view them. Christs name going first, and Peters second in the sentence, by the very rules of Grammer, super illam Petram, vpon that rocke, serueth more aptly for Christ, than for Peter. Againe, the vehemencie of the verbe scio, I am right sure, doth argue the wordes to be more fitly referred to Christ than to Peter. For that the Church is built on Christ, no Christian euer doubted: but that Peter is the Rocke on which the Church is built, S. Austen and others do plainly denie.

But S. Hierom in the third Epistle before this, saith expresly, Petrus super quem Dominus fundauit Ecclesiam: Peter on whome our Lorde built his Church. Hieron. ad Marcellum ad­uersus Monta­num: tomo epi. 2. Vpon this rocke: diuers­ly expounded of the fathers Aug. de verbis Domini secun­dum Mat. serm. 13. The Church built on none but on Christ. Hilar. de Trin. lib. 2. Ibidem lib. 6.

The wordes of our Sauiour in the Gospell, Vpon this rocke will I build my Church, diuerse men haue diuersly taken. S. Austen ex­poundeth them thus: Tu es ergo, inquit, Petrus; & super hanc Petram quam con­fessus es, super hanc Petram quam cognouisti, dicens, tu es filius Dei viui, edificabo Ec­clesiam meam; id est super meipsum filium Dei vini edificabo Ecclesiam meam. Super me edificabo te, non me super te: Thou art Peter, saith Christ, and vppon this rocke, which thou hast confessed, vppon this rocke which thou hast acknowledged by saying; Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God, will I build my Church; that is vpon my selfe the Sonne of the liuing God will I build my Church. I will builde thee vpon mee, not my selfe on thee. Hilarie likewise, Vnum est immobile fundamentum, vna haec est faelix fidei Pe­tra Petriore confessa, tu es filius Dei viui: super hanc igitur confessionis Petram Ecclesiae edificatio est. Haec fides Ecclesiae fundamentum est: This only is the immoueable foundation, this onely is the happie rocke of faith, which was confessed by Peters mouth; thou art the Sonne of the liuing God. Then vpon this rocke of confession standeth the building of the Church. This faith is the foundation of the Church. So doth Ambrose: Ambros. in 2. cap. Epist. ad Ephesio [...]. Idem de in­carnat. Domi­nici sacrament. cap. 5. Dominus dicit ad Petrum, super istam Petram edificabo Ecclesiam meam; hoc est, in hac Ca­tholicae fidei confessione. Eides ergo est Ecclesiae fundamentum. Non enim de car­ne Petri, sed de fide dictum est, qùia portae mortis ei nòn praeualebunt. Sed confessio vicit infernum: The Lord saith to Peter, vpon this rocke will I builde my Church, that is, in this confession of the Catholike Faith. Faith there­fore is the foundation of the church. For it was not spoken of Peters flesh, [Page 63] but of faith, that hell gates should not preuaile against it. But that confes­sion conquered hell. Chrysost. homil. 55. in Matth. Bede in cap. 21. Iohannis. Vpon this rocke will I builde my Church, that is, saith Chrysostom, vppon this faith and confession. Bede; Vppon this rocke, saith Christ, which thou hast confessed will I build my church. That rocke was Christ, vpon the which foundation euen Peter him selfe was to be builded. These meane as S. Paul doth, that the right and true foundatiō of the Church is Christ, and none else.1. Cor. 3. An other foundation can no man lay, than that which is already laid, which is Iesus Christ.

Others I knowe applie these wordes vppon this rocke will I builde my Church, Peter laide in the founda­tion of the Church as a principal mē ­ber thereof. Origen. in 16. Mat. tract. 1. to Peter; mary not as if hee alone were laide in the foundation of the Church, and the rest of the Apostles excluded; but that which is here spoken to him, they make common to all, or as much elsewhere to be giuen to all. Ori­gen, If onely vpon Peter thou thinkest the whole Church to be built, what wilt thou say to Iohn and euery of the Apostles? shall we dare say, that a­gainst Peter onely, the gates of hell shall not preuaile, and against the rest of the Apostles they shall? and not rather in them all and euerie one of them, that to be true, which is saide, the gates of hell shall not preuaile? and that also vpon this rocke will I build my Church? For if this speech, to thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdom of heauen, be common to all, why then should not all that which goeth before and followeth after, as spoken to Peter, be common to them all? Hierom himselfe, whose authoritie you pretend,Hieron. lib. 1. aduersus I [...]ui­niaman. as he placeth Peter in the foundation of the Church, so doth he the rest of the Apostles likewise. Thou wilt say, the Church is built on Peter: notwith­standing the selfe same in another place is done vpon all the Apostles, and they all receiue the keyes of the kingdom of heauen, and the stedfastnesse of the Church is equally setled vpon them. This sense doth somewhat agree with that place of S. Paul, Ephes. 2. were he saith: Ye bee built vpon the foundation (not of Peter alone) but of the Apostles and Prophets, Iesus Christ being the head corner stone. And in that respect Paul saith of Iames, Peter & Iohn ioint­ly, they that seemed to be the pillours, Galat. 2. gaue me their right handes of fel­lowship.

Both these constructions we can admit,Neither of these constru­ctions make for the church of Rome. Tertul. de prae­scription. Cyprian. lib. 1. Epi. 3. though we prefer the first, as most re­ligious & cunning, nearest the true meaning of our Sauiour; but you wrest the wordes of S. Hierom quite against him selfe & all the rest of the learned & Ca­tholike fathers. It is one thing to say the church is built on Peter which Origē, Hierom & others affirme in the sense that I told you before: & an other thing to say the Church is built on Peters chaire at Rome, which no Father euer said or thought. And therefore if we shoulde graunt that S. Hierom in these wordes spake of Peter, what are you the better? This is no proofe that Rome is the Rocke, on which the Church is built; but onely that Peter is a Rocke laide in the foundation of the Church, where also the rest of the Prophetes and Apo­stles are.

The place doth mention the chaire of Peter, which is Rome.

The wordes stande so, that they may respect either Peter himselfe [Page 64] or his chayre: but the likenesse of the names Petrus and Petra both for sound & for sense, the alluding to that, which Christ spake to Peter in the Gospell, long before hee knewe Rome; the generall consent of the Fathers expounding the Rocke to be taken either for Christ or for Peter, and neuer for Rome, import that these words in S. Hierom, haue their relation to Peters person, and not to his chaire. This exposition the place which you brought confirmeth. Petrus, super quem Dominus fundanit Ecclesiam: Ad Marcellum tomo epistolarū 2. Testimonia. Peter, on whom, (that is on whose person, not on whose successors at Rome) the Lord built his Church.

The rest of S. Hieroms wordes can not be referred to Peters person; as namely these, that next insue: Without this house whosoeuer shall eate the [Paschall] Lambe, Hieron. Damas. quoniā vetusto. tomo 2. is prophane. And why shoulde the former more than these?

Peruse the words as they lie, and you shall finde your owne er­ror. Vpon that rocke I know the Church is built. The Church not of Rome only, but of Christ generally. Then followeth, extra hanc domùm, without this house. What house; but the church, which he said before was built on the rock? And out of this house (meaning thereby not the particular Church of Rome, The house of God, is the Church of God, and not the Church of Rome. What S. Au­gustine mea­neth by Pe­ters seat. but the Catholike church of Christ) whosoeuer eateth the Passouer, is indeed, as Hierom saith, aprophane person. This is farre wide from the mark which you shoote at.

S. Augustine I trust shooteth streight, when he applieth the wordes of Christ in the 16. of Matthew, to the chaire of Peter.

That were mar­uaile, if he which by no meanes would allow Peter him selfe to be the founda­tion of the Church, be now content to yeelde that honor to the Bishop of Rome.

He doth so. These be his wordes: Numerate sacerdotes vel ab ipsa Petri sede, Aug. in Psalm. contra partem Donati. From, not in Peters seat. & in ordine illo Patrum, quis cui successit, videte. Ipsa est Petra quam non vincant superbae inferorum portae: Number the Priestes euen from Peters seate, and see who succeded one an other in that rew of Fathers: that is the Rocke which the proude gates of hell do not conquere.

This place proueth nothing, vnlesse you bee suffered to referre the words, Ipsa est Petra, (that is the rocke,) whither you list. You can not re­fer them, but either to the succession of Priests from Peter, or else to Peters seate, which is all one with Peters chaire.

Why not to Peter himself?

That were farre fet.

The wordes stand indifferent for both, as S. Hieroms did; and not onely the same reasons I made there, serue here, but also the proposition hath a manifest reference to Peters person. He saith not number the Priests in Peters seat,Why may not ipsa est Petra be referred to Peters person as well as su­per hanc Pe­tram in the Gospel, as the Iesuits would haue it? but number them vel ab ipsa Petri sede, euen from the very seat of Peter, that is from the time y^t Peter sate: He is the Rock, against which the proud gates of hell do not preuaile.

You seeme to reade, Ipse est Petra, He is the Rocke; but the wordes are, Ipsa est Petra, that is the Rocke.

There are greater corruptions crept into S. Austens works, by the negligence of Scribes than of a for e: Neither did I translate the words, but giue you the right meaning of them; and yet, ipsa est Petra, in S. Austen may be referred to Peter him selfe, as wel, as super hanc Petram, in the Gospell [Page 65] expounded for Peter, which you all vphold. But graunt, which is more than euer you shall iustly conuince, that Peters chaire is thereby ment: Saint Au­sten doth not say that is the rocke on which the Church is built: but that is the Rocke which the gates of hell do not conquere: not promising that Rome still should, but witnessing that Rome then did withstand the gates of hell, by kee­ping the faith vndefiled, which Peter deliuered.

What S. Austen lacketh S. Cyprian supplyeth.Cyprian. de v­nitate Reclesiae Catholicae. Qui Cathedram Petri super quam edificata est Ecclesia, deserit; in Ecclesia se esse confidit? He that forsaketh the chayre of Peter, on which the Church is built, doth he hope himselfe to be in the Church? I trust these wordes be plaine enough.

The wordes as you set them bee plaine enough: but where saith Cyprian so?

In his booke De vnitate Ecclesiae Catholicae, you call it corruptly De sim­plicitate Praelatorum.

Call the booke howe you will, so the wordes bee there.

There shall you finde them.

There we finde them not.

What Prints haue you?S. Cyprian lately falsified by the papists.

Prints enow. Alopecius at Cullen, Herua­gius at Basill, Langelier at Paris, Crinitus at Antuerp, Gryphius at Lions, Manutius at Rome. In all these and diuerse others we finde no such wordis.

In deede I confesse the wordes were wanting, till Pamelius a Canon of Bruges found them in an old written copie lying in the Abbay of Cambron. In his edition printed at Antuerp by Stelsius you shall finde them.

And thinke you Philander, that all other copies both printed & written lacking those words,A Canon of Bruges with his blind Cā ­bron copie, hath inlarged Cypriās text against all the copies of christendom. Pamelius did wel to put them to Cyprians text?

He laid them down as he found them written in the copie, which is kept at Cambron.

As though the blinde Abbay of Cambron were of greater credit & authoritie than all the Churches and Libraries of Christendom.

I say not so.

What else do you say, when you cite these words for Cyprians, which no copie printed, nor written hath besides that of Cambron?

There haue trauelled in the correcting & setting forth of Cyprian at sundry times, men of your owne religion, not a few; namely Remboltus, Canchius, Costerius, Erasmus, Grauius, Manutius, Morelius; euerie one of these for their seuerall editions searching farre and neere, and vsing the best written copies that coulde be gotten or heard of, and they all agree that no such wordes are founde in their copies: yea Pamelius himselfe hauing as hee confesseth the sight and helpe of eight other written copies from diuerse places, founde these wordes in none but in Cambron copie.Either the Cambron copie, or all the written copies in the world must be corrupted; & which of these twaine thinke you, do the Iesuits chose? Since then either Cambron copie must be corrupt, or an infinite number of other written copies, that haue beene viewed by these learned men of your owne side, and are yet extant in diuerse Ab­bayes and Churches obedient to the See of Rome at this houre; say your selfe in reason, whether we ought to beleeue your Cambron copie before all the co­pies that haue beene perused, and are yet remaining in Europe.

That were much, but how could this copie be corrupted?

What a question that is? How could whole books be thrust into the workes of Cyprian, Ambrose, Hie­rom, Austen & others, & ly forged vnder their names not in one, or two, but in [Page 66] the most part of the Abbayes and auncient libraries of the West Church? Your Monkes and Friers that were so skilfull in committing these manifold forge­ries were not to seeke how to corrupt your Cambron copie.

It helpeth Pamelius very much, that Gratian 400. yeares agoe cited the very same words as out of Cyprian. Distinct. 39. qui cathedram.

Gratian might be deceiued by the same or some other false copie, as wel as Pamelius: & of al men Gratian him selfe is most corrupt in alleadging the Fathers; but what if Gratian be forged as wel as Cyprian? Gratian late­ly augmented as well as Cy­prian.

Nay then al shalbe forged, that liketh not you.

They that ventered on Cyprian & others, would neuer sticke to frame Gratian to their purpose.

This is but your suspicion.

Yes I haue some reason to chalenge this in your Canon law for a corruption. The very same place of Cyprian is elsewhere alleaged at large by Gratian in his decrees,Caus. 24 quaest. 1. loquitur Do­minus ad Pe­trium. This place was not in the auncient de­crees. where we find no such words: and therefore this or that must needes be forged. Againe [...]ohannes Seneca, who liued seuen skore yeares after Gratian ouer-skipp [...]h this place without any glosse, as not finding it in the decrees extant in his time.

You be deceaued: there is a glosse vppon this place.

I am not deceaued, there is none. Looke to the lesser volume of your decrees printed by Iohn Petit, and Thielman Keruer, and you shall see there is none. And he that in the bigger volume of your decrees, thinking to preuent this ob­iection, set a certaine glosse to the chapter, Qui Cathedram, shewed himselfe not to be his crafts maister;Glos▪ ibidem qui Cathedrā. The glosse lately forged as wel as Gra­tians text. for he grossely mistaking the wordes that follow, (Epis­copi verò, which are Gratians) & thinking them to be Cyprians, put the summe of Gratians words, as a glosse to Cyprians text, which is nothing neare: and so betrayeth him a willing, but no skilful forgerer. Last of all the relatiue, that you most esteeme, and I most withstand, super quam, on which [chayre] the Church is built, And al this to make Cypriā speake cleane contrarie to himself with­in the com­passe of eight lines. Cyprian de v­mitate Eccle­siae. Peter the first stone that Christ laid in the foundatiō of his church. Cyprian de v­mitate Ecclesiae. is contrarie to the plaine wordes of Cyprian not many lines before cited by Gratian, and confessed by Pamelius to be foūd in his Cambron copie, super vnum illum edificat Ecclesiam, vppon him alone (meaning Peter) Christ buildeth his Church. So that either you must mend your booke, and reade super quē; on whom the Church is built, or els make Cyprian so forget­ful that w^t in eight lines he contradicteth himselfe & refuteth his former saying.

May not the Church bee built on him and his successours?

If Peter alone were chosen by Christ to be the foundatiō, that is the first stone that should be layed in the building of his Church; how can that possibly bee exten­ded to his successors? Can you remoue Peter frō the foundation where Christ laied him, & not do him wrong? Or can you change the foundation, and not shake the building of the Church?

You tooke y^e foundation I perceaue for the first beginning.

And what call you that which is first layed in the buylding of an house, but the foundation?

Did Cyprian meane so?

Cyprian expresseth his meanyng in this sort: Though Christ after his resurrection gaue all his Apostles equall power, yet for the declaratiō of vnitie, with his owne [voyce and] autoritie did he dispose the originall of that vnitie to beginne in one [which was Peter]. The rest of the Apostles were the selfesame that [Page 67] Peter was, endewed with like fellowship of honor and power, but the first beginning came from o [...]e, Exordium and fundamentum all one. that is, Christ chose Peter alone to be the original or first beginning of his Church. Now this is proper to Peters person to be the first Stone that was laied in [...]he foundation of the Church, and can not be deri­ued from him to his successour.

That priuilege died with Peter, vnlesse it remayne in some successour.

Not so, Peter as well after death as during life, keepeth the same place which Christ gaue him in the building of his Church,Peter at this day lieth in the founda­tion of the church where Christ placed him. Galat. 4. Ephes. 2. Heb. 12. vnlesse you meane to ex­clude the Saincts cleane frō the Church of Christ.

They be of the Church triumphant, not militant.

And those be not two, but one Church. Ieru­salem which is aboue is the mother of vs all. Ye be now, sayth Paul, no more strangers and forreners, but Citizens with the Saincts and of the howshold of God. For you be come to the Citie of the Liuing God, the heauenly Ie­rusalem, and to the Church of the first borne written in heauen, and to the spirits of iust men (now) made perfect. Where you see the Saincts in heauē be not remoued from the Church of God, but we receaued to their fellowship, they keeping still that honor and excellencie which they had in Christ before our comming. Abraham is to this day the father of the faythful; the Patriarkes & Prophets are not depriued of their dignitie; Peter no doubt as he was, so he is the first Stone that Christ layed in the foundation of his Church, which dignity you can not take from him after his death.

What then shall his successour haue?

The charge that he had to feede, & the same keyes that were giuen him and the rest, to binde & lose: Which office if the Bishop of Rome will execute, he may haue.

A fayre promotiō: You meane he shalbe a Bishop, as others are.

God graunt he be so much. More if he will haue by warrant from Peter, you must proue it better than by such forged autorities & manned exāples as here you bring. Those that are past, your self see, were to litle purpose; Theodoretes example which is yet behind, is like the rest.

He submitted him self to Leo the great, & was by him restored to his Bi­shoprike,Chalcedonens. concilij actio. 1. Leo tooke Theodoretes part against Dioscorus. Euagrius lib. 1. cap. 10. Leo Epist. 61. ad Theodoretū. though he were not of his Prouince.

Leo toke his part against Dioscorus the Patriarke of Alexandria, y^t like a tyrant in the second Councell of Ephesus not only was the death of Flauianus by spurning & tredding on him, but also cōfirmed the wicked opinion of Eutiches, & deposed Theodorete with­out any iust cause: whō the Bishop of Rome receaued to the cōmunion & acce­pted for a lawfull and Catholike Bishop, not regarding the sentence pronoun­ced against him by Dioscorus.

Then Leo reuersed the lewd acts of Diosco­rus in that Ephesine Councell.

Leo withstood thē, as all other good men did throughout the world, but the iudgement was reuersed by the great Coūcel of Chalcedon, Chalcedonens. Concilij actio. 8. & not by the Bishop of Rome: where Theodorete was forced with his own mouth in their presence to cleare him selfe from all suspition, not­withstanding his restitution by Leo, before he could be admitted to make his complaynt against Dioscorus.

Still you see the Bishop of Rome resisted other, & by dissenting from them ouerthrew their interprises.Their exam­ples proue the Bishop of Rome had no such power as he now clai­meth.

And still you see the Bishop of Rome neuer ended these matters at home in his owne C [...]sistorie as supreme Iudge of the whole earth, but euer made suite to Christi [...]n Princes, that these thinges might be determined in full assemblies of Bis [...]ops by the iudgement & opinion of the most part, which is cleane contrarie t [...] that absolute power, he now clay­meth, as Uicar generall to Christ, & the only Ruler of his vniuersall Church. And therefore these examples which you haue brought, & many like which you might bring, proue no [...] that power, which you defend at this day, to belong to the Bishop of Rome, but rather euert the same. For what needed his prede­cessors with all ouetie become suppliants to Catholike Emperours for the ga­thering of Bishops out of all quarters to decide matters in doubt, and that sute often refused, as when Innocentius messengers came backe from Arcadius w^t a shamefull repulse, and Leo the great, whom you last spake of, besought The­odosius the yonger with sighes & teares to graunt a Councell for the repealing of Dioscorus actes,The Pope be­sought the Emperour with sighes & teares for a Councel, and could not pre­uaile. & could not obtaine it: what needed, I say, such earnest and humble request to those that neglected their prayers, if Christ had appointed them as Peters successors, and his deputies without depending on Princes pleasures, or other mens voices to say but the word, which should stand good in his Church, against all persons, in all causes both of doctrine & discipline? And what better conuiction of your falshood can there be, than that in all these trou­bles & tempests of the Church, which you haue chosen out of many for your best aduantage,In all these examples the Bishop of Rome neuer so much as al­leadged or mentioned his vniuersall power, which your Iesuites defend. the Bishop of Rome neuer so much as pretended or mentioned his Lieutenantship to Christ, which you now defend, but euer keeping his place, which by reason of his Citie was the first among the Patriarkes, & ioyning him selfe to the West Bishops which were then a good part of Christendom, by their helpe and the fauour of religious Princes gate those thinges, that oppressed the Church and impugned the faith, to be debated and determined by common cō ­sent, in generall and lawfull Councels, without any reseruation or motion of his absolute power, or negatiue voice?

Our examples, you grant, proue this, that he resisted others: now shewe you that others ouerruled him.

If I could not, the matter were not great, cōsidering your examples conclude nothing against vs:As the Bishop of Rome resi­sted others, so others resi­sted him. but least you should flat­ter your selues too much in your follies, you shal see that others withstood him, as well as he withstood others.

Were they Catholiks?

I trust you dare not account them heretikes. Peter, as you say, the first Bishop of Rome, was resisted by Paul the teacher of the Gentiles;Who they were that re­sisted the Bi­shop of Rome Anicetus by Policarpus Saint Iohns owne scholer; Victor by Polycrates, Ireneus, and al the bre­thren of Asia; Stephanus by Cyprian; Damasus, Syricius and Anasta­sius by Flauianus and all the Churches of the East, of Asia, Pontus, Thra­cia, and Illyricum; Innocentius by Cyrill; Sozimus and Bonifacius by Au­gustine and two hundred and sixteene Bishoppes of Africa; Caelestinus by Theodorete; Leo by the great Councell of Chalcedon; Gregorie by the [Page 96] Britanes; and many other Bishops of Rome by diuerse godly Princes, Pre­lates, Countries, and Councels.

I like not these generall florishes which serue onely to obscure the truth, and beguile the simple.

Howe then can you like your Apologie which consisteth of nothing else? And what a slender kinde of proofe, was that idle rehearsall of names, which you made euen now for your running to Rome? But our particulars I am well con­tent you shall skan.

The first, Paul himselfe affirmeth.Galat. 2. Ibidem. Paul resisting Peter, & that after his in­stallation at Rome if the Romish ac­count be true, which most men doubt. When Peter came to Antioch, I with­stood him to his face, for hee was to be blamed.

The quarell be­twixt them was not great.

Not walking the right way to the truth of the Gospell, and compelling the Gentiles to liue, like the Iewes, was no such petite fault as you make it; but graunt it were. The smaller the fault, the stronger our instance. If Paul for a light matter resisted Peter to his face, what woulde hee haue done in a cause of more weight?

Was Peter then Bishop of Rome when Paul reproued him?

It forceth not whether hee were or no. Peter as you pretende had his prerogatiue not from Rome, but from Christ, long before hee sawe Rome; and therefore was in as full authoritie when Paul resisted him, as when Nero martyred him: and yet if their account bee true, that were the first authours of his pre­ferment to Rome, hee was rebuked at Paules handes euen when hee was Bishoppe of Rome. Euseb. Chronic. in anno 44. For, Peter (as Eusebius or some other in his name recordeth) went to Rome, and was Bishoppe there in the 44. yeare of Christ, that is, eleuen yeares after his passion, Christ being put to death in the 33. yeare of his age: and Paul in the fifteenth yeare of his conuersion, or as him­selfe speaketh,Galat. 2. The Papistes make Peter a Nonresident. After fourteene yeares, came not to Rome, but to Ierusa­lem to conferre with Peter; which at least must be the 48. yeare of Christ and foure yeares after Peters installation at Rome. And after that when Peter came to Antioch, and began to dissemble for feare of the Iewes which were sent from Iames, Paul resisted him to his face, and sharpely rebuked him, not respecting that hee was then in his pontificalibus and newly made Bishop of Rome, as you your selues beleeue. Now choose whether you will disclaime Peter for no Bishop of Rome, and so loose your succession from him, or graunt that the Bishop of Rome may be lawfully resisted as Peter was, which is the very thing you required vs to proue. One of these twaine you shall neuer a­uoide; do what you can.

I may not deny that Paul did it, the Scripture is plaine, I resisted him to his face; but whether he did no more than he might, or how to his face, is a Schole-point and a pretie question.Rhemish annor. in Epi. ad Gal. cap. 2. vers. 11. Whether Paul might resist Peter, is an vngodly doubt.

No question at all, vnlesse you will charge Paul with rashnesse in doing it, vnshamefastnesse in writing it, and wilfulnesse in directlie defending it. For by this dissention doth he proue the [...]oundnesse of his doctrine; and by Peters yeelding hee confirmeth the Gala­thians that were wauering. And therefore you must either allowe this re­sistaunce for good and lawfull, or else conclude this Epistle to bee no Scrip­ture, [Page 70] and Paul to be voide of the holy Ghost, in proposing an vnhonest and vngod­ly fact of his owne for a president, which to say, were no small blasphemie.

I did not auouch it, but only moue the question.

You must moue no such questions, if you be a Christian: they be reprochfull to the spirit of God, and iniurious to his word. You were driuen to a narrow straite, when you came to this shift. You be loth I see, to confesse either; but there is no remedy Philander, you must yeelde vs one of these, whether you will or no.

Let me heare the rest, and then you shall know my minde.

Resist not truth, to maintaine your credit; God will surely reuenge it. This example is ineuita­ble, studie till your braines ake for an answere. But the rest you shall heare.

Polycarpus withstood A­nicetus for the obserua­tion of Easter. Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 26. Polycarpus being at Rome when Anicetus was Bishop there, they dissen­ting in some other small matters were by and by reconciled; but touching the obseruation of Easter-day, which in diuerse places was diuersely kept, A­nicetus could not perswade Polycarpus to leaue those thinges, which he had alwayes obserued with Iohn the Disciple of our Lord, and the rest of the A­postles, with whom he had beene conuersant.

The contention was but in words betweene them.

Yes they differed in deedes, and Polycar­pus could not be induced by any wordes to follow that manner of celebrating Easter-day, which Anicetus receiued from those Apostles, that founded the Romane Church.

This cōtrouersie waxed hoatter in Victors time, who for the very same cause went about to cut off al the Churches of Asia from the vnitie of commu­nion, Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 25. Polycrates withstood Vi­ctor for the same cause. Ibidem. as intangled with some strange opinion; and by letters inueighed a­gainst them and vtterly denounced al the brethren there excommunicated, but for all his hast he was quickly staied.

By whom?

Polycrates in the behalfe of the Churches of Asia, amongest other thinges replyeth thus to Victor: I that haue seene threescore & fiue yeares in the Lord, and haue cō ­ferred with the brethren throughout the world, and haue turned and sear­ched the holy Scripture, will neuer be afraid of those thinges that are done to terrifie me. A great mul­titude of Bi­shops with Polycrates a­gainst Victor. Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 26. Victor repro­ued by his owne side for offering to excommuni­cate the chur­ches of Asia, that stood a­gainst him. I could make mention of the Bishops that are with me, whō you required me to send for, and so I did, whose names if I would recken they would make a great multitude, which taking the paines to visit me, a man of small account, consent to this Epistle. Victors deede did not please all the Bishops that otherwise were of his side: Yea many of their letters, saith Eusebius, are extant that did sharply reproue Victor. Amongest whom Ire­neus was one that wrote in the name of his brethren of Fraunce where he was chiefe, and allowed [Victors opinion] that the mysterie of the Lordes resurrection should bee kept onely vpon Sundaie. But yet he wisely and largelie warneth Victor, that he should not excommunicate all the chur­ches of God obseruing their auncient tradition.

They withstood him in a small and trifling cause.

You take holde of that which doth hurt you. To resist whom they should not, in a matter that they neede not, is [Page 71] a double offence; and then shoulde Ireneus and others haue rather reproued Polycrates and his adherentes for neglecting their dueties, than the Bishop of Rome for passing his boundes; but in that hee was stoutly resisted by the one, and sharpelie reproued by the other, it is euident that neither of them tooke him for his sole and supreme directer of Christes Church on earth.

Of Cyprian, Cyprian. lib. 1. Epist. 4. I said before, that he counselled the Church of Spain to reiect Basilides, notwithstanding his restitution by Stephanus Bishop of Rome: and howe vehemently the saide Stephanus was resisted by Cyprian for the rebaptizing of such as forsooke their heresies, his Epistle to Pompeius doth aboundantlie witnesse.Cyprian. Epist. ad Pompeium contra Epist. Stephan. Cypriās stoutnesse against Stephanus Bishop of Rome. Because you desired to knowe what aunswere our brother Stephanus [Bishoppe of Rome] returned to our letters, I haue sent you a copie of that he wrote. By the reading whereof you shall more and more perceiue his error, that hee laboureth to maintaine the cause of heretickes against the Church of God. For amongest other thinges ei­ther superfluous, or impertinent, or contrarie to themselues, which he wri­teth vnskilfully and vnwisely, hee added this, &c. And hauing repeated and refuted the wordes of Stephanus, What blindnesse of heart, saith Cyprian, is this and what peruersenesse, Ibidem. that hee will not acknowledge the vnitie of faith comming from God the Father by the deliuery of our Lorde Iesus Christ? And where no heresie no nor schisme, can haue the sanctification of healthfull baptisme out of the Church, why doth the inflexible obstina­cie of our brother Stephanus breake out so farre, that of Martions baptisme, and such like blasphemers against God the Father, he auoucheth children may be borne [vnto God]? It commeth of too much presumption and fro­wardnes, that a man had rather defende his owne, though it bee false and naught, than yeelde to an others deedes and words. How like you this resi­sistance? doth it go to the quicke or no?

This was an error in Cyprian, Cyprian in an ill cause resi­sting the Bi­shop of Rome did and doth go for a Mar­tyr and father of the church. for Stephanus held the truth.

The question is not whether Cypryan were deceiued, but whether Stephanus were resisted. I grant in this case Stephanus had the better part, but yet Cyprian & the Bishops of Africa thought thēselues to be right: & vpon that opinion of truth how far they resisted the Bishop of Rome, their acts & Epistles declare.

Their matter, I tel you, was naught.

That doth rather fasten than shake my conclusiō. For if Cyprian & the Bishops of Africa, when their cause was not good resisting y^e Bishops of Rome both in words & deeds, were taken & accoun­ted in the Church of God for Christian & Catholike Bishops, yea Cyprian the chiefe leader of them, and most earnest against him, for a worthie Father & glo­rious Martyr; how much more then in a right and iust cause might the Bishops of Rome be lawfully resisted in those dayes?Flauianus withstood 4. Bishops of Rome though their cause were not much amisse.

The which I may likewise conclude by the next example, where the Bi­shops of Rome were not onely resisted, but at length forced to yeelde to Flauia­nus, although their strife with him at the first seemed to carry some reason.

Did they not wel to reiect him, y^t was made Bishop against his oth? Flauianus [Page 34] was one of those that were sworne neither to seeke, nor to accept the Bi­shopricke of Antioch, Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 3. if they were chosen, till Miletius & Paulinus were both dead; that thereby the Church of Antioch, which before was diuided in two partes vnder two Bishops, might be ioyned togither and vnited in one: and hee vpon the death of Miletius, whiles Paulinus yet liued, not respecting his oth, was content to take the place.

I sayde there was some cause for the Bishoppes of Rome to refuse him, and yet notwithstanding the goodnesse of their quarrell,Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 23. Who tooke part with Fla­uianus against the Bishops of Rome. The Prince willeth Flaui­anus to keepe his Church, though foure Popes for 17. yeares togither im­pugned him. Ibidem. and sharpenesse of contention, which Dama­sus, Syri [...]ius, Athanasius and Innocentius maintayned against him, all the Churches of the East, of Asia, Pontus, Thracia, and Illyricum tooke part with Flauianus, defended his election and receiued his communion, though the Bishops of Rome would do neither.

And Theodosius the elder a very religious Emperour, hauing the courage and wisedom of Flauianus in admiration, and seeing the number of Churches that did communicate with him, willed him to returne, & feede the Church [or flock] committed to his charge. Against whom when the Bishoppe of Rome made a long accusation, the godly Prince vndertooke his defence, pleaded his cause, and exhorted them to knit their Churches togither, and to leaue striuing and extinguish those foolish brables. And so was the Bishop of Rome glad to giue ouer the quarell, which hee and three of his predecessors had for the space of seuenteene yeares egerly followed against Flauianus.

Ibidem.How little Cyrillus esteemed the communion of the Bishop of Rome doeth well appeare by his answere to Atticus, Nice. lib. 14. cap. 27. Cyrill estee­med not the communion of the Bishop of Rome. Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 34. where hee vehemently diswadeth that Chrysostoms name after his death should be put in the Catalogue of Bishops, notwithstanding Innocentius and the West Bishops, would not communicate with Egypt or the East partes till that were obtayned.

It was a fault in Cyrill to be so vehement against Chrysostom in fauor of his vnkle Theophi­lus the chiefe doer of all this, and that ouersight he after corrected, by yeelding to that which before he rufused.

What moued Cyrill at the first to with­stand, and after to yeeld, I neede not care, you may not iudge; were the cause good or bad, to my purpose all is one; this is it that I vrge, neither Cyrill nor Atticus, nor the Churches with them were reputed schismaticall for lacking or neglecting so long time the communiō of the Bishop of Rome, though the mat­ter they stood on, were skant sound.

You should bring vs an example where the Bishop of Rome was with­stood by a Councell: the factes of priuate men carie not so great credit, as when they bee done in a publike Synode.

The men, that I haue named vnto you,Those resi­stances were offered not by priuate per­sons but by Councels and Countries. were no such obscure persons, that you neede doubt of theyr credit. They were for their calling and function, Bishops and Patriarkes: for their learning and holinesse, lightes in the Church of Christ, and are so taken to this daie. Neither, as you suppose, were they alone in these ac­tions, but had the Bishoppes and Churches adioyning to take their partes, and did these thinges, which I spake of, in open Councell. Polycrates [Page 73] had with him a Councell in Asia, when he resisted Victor, Euseb. lib. 5. Cap. 24. &. 25. Ibidem. Cap. 26. and Ireneus had like­wise an other in Fraunce, when he reproued him. Cyprian and 84. Africane Bi­shops ioyned together in y^e Coūcel of Carthage, against Stephanus. With Fla­uianus, Concil. Cartha. de haeret. bap­tisandis inter opera Cypriani. as Sozomene writeth, were the Bishops of Syria, Phenica, Armenia, Cappadocia, Galatia: as Theodorete sayth, all the Churches of Asia, Pontus, Thracia, Illyricum, besides all the East Churches. That which Cyrill defen­ded was done by two Councels & allowed by the three Patriarkes of Alexan­dria, Sozome. lib. 7. Cap. 11. Constantinople, Antioche and their Prouinces. And therefore these are no priuate men nor matters,Theodoret. li. 5. Cap. 23. as you pretend, but thinges done in open Synodes by no meane Bishoppes. And yet to content your mind, you shall see where the Bishop of Rome clayming farre lesse authoritie than hee doeth at this day,Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 18. was openly resisted in a Councell of 217. Bishops to his immortall shame, and your vtter ouerthrow in this cause.The sixt coū ­cel of Car­thage stoutly resisted the Bishop of Rome, and conuin­ced him of forgery.

Sozimus Bishop of Rome, sending his Legats Faustinus, Philippus, and Asellus to the sixt Councell of Carthage, in fauour of Apiarius a Priest, that fled to Rome for ayde against Vrbanus his Dioecesane, which had taken both his function, & the communion from him for his lewdnes; amongst other things gaue them in charge, to clayme this prerogatiue for him and his See, that if a­ny Bishoppes were accused or deposed, and appealed to Rome, the Byshoppe of Rome might either write to the next Prouince to determine the matter, or send some from his side to represent his person, and to sit in iudgement with the Bi­shoppes.Vide Concilium Carthaginense sextum, Cap. 3. And to proue this lawfull, he cited in writing vnder his hande a Canon of the Councell of Nice tending to that effect. The Godly fathers assembling themselues out of all Africa, to the number of 217. and finding no such Canon in their bookes either Greeke or Latine, wrate to the Patriarkes of Alexandria, Constantinople, and Antioche for true and authentike copies of the Nicene Councell: and seeing their owne copies agree worde for worde with those that were brought, and no such thing to bee found in any Canon there, first by their decree cut off appeales to Rome, and secondly by their letters traduced the Bi­shop of Rome, as well for his ambition, as forgerie.

An old broken matter,Bonifacius saith the di­uelled Saint Augustine & the rest to be sawcie with the Bishop of Rome. often alleaged, and offen answered.

You could doe litle if you could not crake, but that will not serue your turnes: you must spare vs a better answere. In deede Bonifacius the second doeth an­swere y^e matter in this sort: Aurelius praefatae Carthagiensis ecclesiae olim Episcopus cum collegis suis instigante Diabolo superbire temporibus praedecessorum nostrorum Bonifacij & Caelestini contra Romanam ecclesiam cepit: Aurelius once Bishoppe of Carthage with his collegues (amongst whom was S. Austen with many other learned and Godly fathers) in the time of Bonifacius and Caelestinus our predecessours, Bonifacius se­cundus ad Eu­lalium de re­concilia. Cartha­ginens. Eccl. Concilio: tomo 1. began through the instigation of the Deuill to be malepart with the church of Rome. If you take this for an answere, so is it: other I know none, that your friends haue made.

The Bishops of Africa, you know were deceiued in the number of the Nicene Canons.

I know they were not; but graunt they were, this suffi­ceth [Page 74] me that they resisted three Bishoppes of Rome, Sozimus, Bonifacius and Coelestinus one after an other, both by their decrees and their letters. For vpon occasion of Apiarius flight to Rome, they decreed that Priests, Deacons, and other inferiour clerks, if they complayned of the iudgements of their Dioe­cesanes, Aphric. con­cilij, Cap. 92. Appeales to Rome con­demned by Saint August. and his Col­legues. should be heard by the Bishoppes adioyning. Quod si & ab eis prouo­candum putauerint, non prouocent nisi ad Africana Concilia, vel ad primates Prouin­ciarum suarum. Ad transimarina autem qui putauerit appellandum, a nullo intra Africam ad communionem suscipiatur: And if they think good to appeale from them also, let them not appeale but to the Coūcels of Africa, or the primates of their owne Prouince. And hee that ventereth to appeale ouer the Seas [to Rome] let him be receiued of no man within Africa vnto the cōmunion.

This decree barreth Priests & inferiour Clerks from appealing to Rome, but not Bishops.

The Canon was fitted to the matter in question. Ap­piarius that ranne to Rome, was a Priest and no Bishop: and yet touching ap­peales of Bishops to Rome, what answere they made, followeth in their letters first to Bonifacius, before they sent for authentike copies to the chiefe places of Christendom:Aphric. con­cil. Cap. 101. to whom they signifie, that cōcerning appeales of Bishops to the Priests of Rome, they would suffer that to be kept for a while, till they could get the Canons of the Nicene Councell; & after they had receiued y^e same from Cyrillus and Atticus, they framed their answere to Coelestinus on this wise.

Our dewe salutations remembred and done: we entreat & earnestly pray you that hereafter you will not lightly giue audience to those, Aphric. con­cil. Cap. 105. that come from hence to you, neither any more receiue such to the communion as we excommunicate; because your reuerence shall easily perceiue that order ta­ken by the Nicene councel. The fathers neuer heard of Christs vi­car general. For if there appeare a prouiso for inferior clerks, and lay men, how much more would the Synode haue the same obserued in Bishops; that being excōmunicated in their own Prouince, they should not be suddēly, hastily, or vnduly restored to the cōmuniō by your holines? And likewise your holines must repel these wicked refuges of pristes & other cler­gie men [to Rome] as becōmeth you: for that by no determination of the fa­thers this is derogated frō the church of Africa: & the Nicene Canons do most euidently cōmit both inferiour Clergie men, Where then are appeales to Rome? & the Bishops thēselues to their owne Metropolitanes. No doubt they most wisely and rightly prouided, that al matters should be ended in the places where they first arose; neither shall the grace of the holy Ghost be wanting to any Prouince, by the which equitie may be grauely weighed, and stoutly followed by the Priestes of Christ; especially, where as euery man hath liberty, if he mislike the iudge­ment of those that heare his cause, The holy Ghost as wel [...] one pro­ [...]ace as in [...]. to appeale to the Councels of his own Prouince, or to a general Councel. Or how shall the iudgement ouer the Seas [at Rome] be good, whereto the necessarie persons of the witnesses ei­ther for sex or for age, or sundrie other impedimēts, can not be brought? For that any shuld be sent [as Legats] from your holines side, [...] we find decreed by no Synod of the fathers. That which you sent vs hither by Faustinus, as a part [Page 75] of the Nicene Coūcel in the truer copies, which we haue receiued from holy Cyril Bishop of Alexandria, The Councel of Nice cor­rupted by the Bishop of Rome. & reuerent Atticus Bishop of Constantinople, takē out of the originals thēselues, (which also we sent to Bonifacius your prede­cessor) In them, we say, we could find no such thing. And as for your agents or messengers, send thē not, grant thē not at euery mās request, lest we seem to bring the smoky pride of the world into the Church of Christ, The Popes claime called the smokie pride of the world. which pro­poseth the light of simplicitie & humilitie to those that desire to see God &c.

Doth your eye sight serue you Philander to marke in this olde broken mat­ter, as you call it, howe many wayes the Bishoppes of Africa withstood the Bi­shop of Rome? What the Councel of Africa denied to the Bishop of Rome. Appeales to Rome, which Sozimus claymed by the Councell of Nice, they confute by the same Councell, and impugne with other graue & pi­thie reasons: Legates a latere, which he chalenged, they reiect as neuer spoken of in any Councell: Running to Rome, which you make lawfull, they call a wic­ked refuge; and sending of messengers from Rome, a smokie pride of the worlde. The corrupting the Nicene canons by Sozimus, they disproue by co­pies that were true and authentike; and Apiarius whome the Bishoppe of Rome harboured and restored the second time to the communion, they vtterly banished from the Church of Christ; and not therwith content, they set downe a rule that if any Priest afterwarde did appeale to Rome, no man in Aphrica should receiue him to the communion. Was this re­sisted or no? What thinke you, woulde these men haue done, if Sozimus had claimed to be head of the vniuersall Church, Uicar generall to Christ, supreme and infallible Iudge of all men and matters eccle­siastical, and that not by consent of Synodes, but by graunt from Christ? What could they haue sayde to your vntydie vanities, that the Popes [seate is the na­tiue home of all true beleeuers,] himselfe [the rocke of refuge in doubtfull dayes and doctrines,] and the whole worlde [his fold and familie?]

You must frame vs some better answere to this geare than Bonifacius your holy father did. I trust in these dayes you dare not say, the diuel led S. Augu­stine & al the Bishops of Aphrica, to be pragent & saucie with Coelestinus, as he sayd. For if the diuell led them that in defence of themselues & their right sear­ched and auouched the true Canons of the Nicene Councell, what spirite led Sozimus, that began a strange and new clayme; and to bolster vp his pride, wil­fully corrupted the Councell of Nice?

He did not corrupt the Councell of Nice, Epist. Aegiptio­rum ad Marcū pro exempla. Niceni Concilij tomo Conci­liorum 1. The Papists to saue the Popes credit haue cōmit­ted shameful forgeries. but rather their Bishoppes of Aphrica that withstoode him were beguiled in the number of the Nicene Ca­nons.

He did corrupt the Councell of Nice, and the Bishops that de­tected his falshood were not beguiled.

They had but twentie Canons, where the Councell of Nice made threescore and ten, as we find in an Epistle written by those of Egypt to Marcus Bishop of Rome, for a true extract of se­uentie Canons after the Arians had burnt the Authentike copie which Atha­nasius brought from Nice.

You rescue one forgerie with an o­ther. When your adherents saw that Sozimus was taken tardie with belying the Nicene Councell, to saue his credite they deuised that the councell of Nice [Page 76] should make seuentie Canons, though there were neuer seene but twentie. And to giue this tale some life they coyned a letter in the name of Athanasius and o­thers to Marcus Bishop of Rome, complayning what the Arians had done at Alexandria, & requesting at his hands the true copie of those seuentie Canons: neuer remembring howe fond and foolish a fable this would be, when it shoulde come to skanning: and howe substantially the Bishoppes of Aphrica went to worke, when this title was first pretended.

Rescriptum Iulij contra ori­entales pro Athanasio. And he a wise man to chose the worst.Doth not Iulius in his Epistle to the East Bishops repeate 27. Canons of y^e Nicene Councell more than our copies haue; & sixe of them clearer for the Popes authoritie, than that which Sozimus alleadged?

You come in with your decretals, as if they were some worthie monuments. But Sirs, the more you forge, the lesse you gaine. All the decretals you haue will not counter­uaile the reason which S. Austen and the rest make to Bonifacius. Episto. Africani conci. ad Bonif. Cap. 101. No decretals can discredit. the diligence of the African Bishops. Concilium Carthaginense sextum Cap. 9. Quis dubi­tet exemplaria esse verissima Nicenae Synodi, quae de tam diuersis locis & de nobili­bus Graecis ecclesijs adlata & comparata concordat? Who can doubt those copies of the Nicene Councell to be most true, which being brought from so many places, & from the noble Churches of Greece, agree when they bee compa­red? The letters of Marcus and Iulius framed in corners, and founde at Rome, light of credite, and full of lies; are not able to frustrate the great paynes and good meanes which the Bishops of Africa bestowed and vsed in searching the trueth.

Concilij. Afric. Cap. 102. & 103.They had their owne bookes which were many both in Greeke and Latine: they had the very copie, which Coecilianus Bishoppe of Carthage, that was present and subscribed in the Councell of Nice, brought with him from thence:Their Decre­tales are too yong to out­face the au­thenticke copies. they had a faithful transcript from the Churches of Alexandria and Constan­tinople out of their originall recordes. These three copies so many thousande miles asunder, and euery one of them Authentike, when they were brought to­gether and compared, did word for worde agree with themselues, and with the bookes that were in euery mans priuate keeping. If that be not enough,Ruffin. lib. 1. Cap. 6. The Popes silence then, conuinceth this forgerie since. Marke the likelihoode of this fable, and see the shame­fastnes of Pa­pists that mocke the worlde with them. Ruffi­nus that liued in Italie and wrate in the dayes of Theodosius the elder before this matter came in question, published in his Latine historie to the eyes of all men the very same number and order of the Nicene Canons, which the Coun­cell of Africa followed: Yea the Bishops of Rome themselues, Bonifacius and Coelestinus, to whom this answere was made, neuer replied, neuer vrged, nor offered any mo Canons than these twentie, which were sent from other places, though the cause required, and the time serued to bring forth their seuentie Ca­nons, as well for Sozimus discharge, as their owne interest & authoritie which was then not only doubted, but also resisted.

Besides, this your assertion of seuentie Canons, what a peeuish and senselesse fable it is? Howe coulde all the true copies of the Nicene Councell throughout the worlde bee consumed and destroyed within three score yeeres, and no man mislike it, no man perceiue it, no man report it? Or howe coulde fiftie Ca­nons bee suddenly lost, and euery where twentie left in faire and Authentike [Page 77] writings? Why would the Arians, (for they must bee the doers of it,) wreake their malice on those Canons that did not touch them;Extat Socratis lib. 1. Cap. 9. and spare the Nicene creede & Epistle written to y^e Church of Alexandria, which directly condem­ned their impietie? Nay why did the church of Rome suffer those 50. Canons to perish, that made most for her prerogatiue, and kept these twentie safe, which rather restraine than enlarge her authoritie?

Trust you not Athanasius, that was present when the Canons were made?The Canons burnt before they were made.

I trust him well, but I trust not your shuffeling in what you list vnder his name. Your forged Athanasius is soone disproued. For if Iulius were Bishop of Rome when the Councell of Nice was called, as Sozomene & Bede doe witnes;Sozome. lib. 1. Cap. 17. & Beda distinc. 16. sexta. how could Athanasius write to Marcus next before Iulius, that the Canons of the Councell of Nice were burnt? Were the Canons burnt, trow you, before they were made? Againe, though al men did not allow the decrees of the Nicene Councel, Sozom. lib. 3. Cap. 1. yet whiles Constantine liued, no man, saith Sozomene, durst openly and plainely refuse them, much lesse burne them in a furious & publike tumult.

And what if Athanasius were not then néere Aegypt when Marcus wrate this solemne Epistle,Athanas. not neere Aegypt when this let­ter was writ­ten thence in his name. will you neuer bee weaned from these foolish forgeries? Marcus letter beareth date, decimo calendas Nouembris, Nepotiano & Secundo Consulibus: the 21. of October, Nepotianus and Secundus being Consuls; which was the later end of the 30. yere of Constantines raigne. Nowe all that yeere was Athanasius kept from Aegypt at the Councel of Tyrus, Rescriptuu [...] Marci Atha­nasio & Aegyptijs. & without retur­ning home, fled to Constantinople, where he stayed till hee was banished into Fraunce. Neither was there any such persecution in Aegypt that yere, or any time before vnder Constantine, as this Epistle doth specifie,Vide Sozome lib. 1. Cap. 25. & 28. but a great while after vnder Constantius, when Marcus was dead and rotten. And to conclude if the copie which Athanasius brought with him from Nice were burnt by the Arians in his time, as his letter to Marcus importeth;Concil. Africa. Cap. 102. howe coulde Cyril that came long after him find an Authentike copie in the same Church, as his words inferre to the Councell of Africa? An other for­gerie vnder Iulius name worse than the former.

Marcus Epistle might be suspected if Iulius letter did not affirme the same.

Iulius Epistle is a right paterne of your Romish recordes. For there besides impudent forgerie, you shall find wilfull periurie.

Why so?

Your counterfayte Iulius is not content to forge Canons,Rescript. Iulij ad Orientales Cap. 29. but hee byn­deth thē also with an othe. Verū me dixisse testis est diuinitas: god is my witnes, that I speake trueth. The Papists haue forged a decretal in Iulius name, where as his true letter is extant in A­thanasius Apologie.

You should the rather beleeue him.

Be­leeue him? As though the right and true rescript of Iulius to the Synode of An­tioche were not set downe by Athanasius himselfe in his seconde Apologie to the manifest detection of your shamelesse forging and forswearing? Compare that letter with this, and you will blush to see the Church of Rome so fowlely ouershot. And yet were there no such thing extant, this blind decretall doth con­uict it selfe. For it beareth date the first of Nouember, Felicianus [and his fel­low] being Consuls:Socrat. lib. 1. Cap. 40. which was the very yere that Constantine the great died. [Page 78] Now the councel of Antioch y^• deposed Athanasius, A man may feele this for­gerie with his fingers. Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 5. to the which Iulius wrate, was gathered by Constantius the fift yere after Constantines death: and so this answere to the councel of Antioch was written fiue yeres before there was any such councel assembled. Again Iulius himself sayth in his Epistle to those of An­tioch, that Athanasius [stayed at Rome] with him one whole yere & sixe mo­neths, expecting their presēce, Athanasij Apologia 2. The first da­ted Calend. Octobris, the second calend. Nouembris the same yeare. after they were cited by his first letters to shew y^e reason of their proceeding against Athanasius: & these two decretals of Iulius, which you bring vs, beare date iust 31. dayes asunder, in which tune you can not go from Rome to Antioch, & returne with an answere, except you get you wings. And so notwithstanding your shifts & deuises to cloke & hide the matter, if it would be; your holy father falsified the coūcel of Nice to serue his ambitiō, & the Bishops of Africa by common cōsent both stoutly, & rightly withstood him.

Well Theophilus, y^e truth of these things God knoweth, I will defend no more than I may with honestie.

You were not best. God be thanked, mens eies are open, you can not blind thē w^t such canuisadoes. But I wil go forward.

Theodorete is the next, who was one of those that tooke part with Iohn of Antioch against Cyrill in the first Councell of Ephesus, and both charged him with heresie, and deposed him notwithstanding he supplied the place of Coele­stinus Bishoppe of Rome. Euag [...]. li. 1. ca. 4.

Theodorete did this in a faction to serue other mens humors.

I grant it was a priuate grudge between the two Patri­arks, & that y^e Bishop of Antioch, w^t whom Theodoret came,Theodoret against the Popes deputy. sought vnlawfull meanes to be reuenged of Cyril; but yet this Theodoret & the rest did.

It skilleth not what they did, so long as their doings were condemned by two ge­neral Councels, & thēselues glad to reuoke their own acts.

In that they deposed Cyrillus & Memnon against al order, and without iust cause, & vpon sto­make defamed the Chapters, as heretical, which y^e councel of Ephesus by Cyrils direction proposed against Nestorius, they were worthily reproued: & whē choler was a litle digested, both sides did wisely to relent, & remit al former offēces: but what coūcel did euer obiect this to thē as a fault, y^t they resisted y^e popes deputie?

Nay rather the rest of the bishops y^t held w^t Cyril, (when y^e letters of Theodo­sius came,The Legats of Rome threat­ned by the first Ephesine Councel. wherein he approued the deposition as wel of Cyril & Memnon, as of Nestorius) not only prescribed & limited the Popes Legate & others that were sent in Embassage to y^e Prince, what they should do, but added this threatning: Scire autē volumus vestrā sanctitatē, quod si quid horū a vobis contemptū fuerit, ne­que sancta Synodus acta habebit rata, neque vos cōmunionis sinet esse participes. In Apologet. Cyril. mandatū Synod. Ephes [...]. We giue your holines to vnderstand, that if any of these things (which we haue appointed you) be omitted by you, neither will this holy Synod ratifie your acts, nor receiue you to the cōmunion. If you respect not those that impugned Cyril, I shew you that y^e Popes legate was both cōmanded & menaced by those which assisted Cyril, whom you can not choose but allow. By the which it is eui­dent that the lawful & general coūcel of Ephesus thought they might, and sayd they would, not only controle, but euen excōmunicate the popes vicegerent, if he did not that which was enioyned him by the Synode.

The great Councel of Chalcedon gaue the Bishop of Constantinople equall [Page 79] priuileges with the Bishop of Rome:Vide concilij Chalcedonens. actionē 16. The great councel of Chalcedon o­uerruleth the Bishop of Rome. & when those that represented the person of Leo, y^e next day desired of the noble men that sate there as iudges & moderators, that the matter might be brought about againe & put to voices, pretending that it was not orderly past; y^e councel, that in y^e absence of y^e Popes Legats had made this decree, in their presence confirmed y^e same, they contradicting & doing what they could for their liues to withstand it.

If they were not present, y^e decree was not good.

There you beguile your self. If the bishop of Rome were not called, the Councell was not generall; but though neither he nor his Le­gates were present, the decree might be good.

How proue you they were absent?

Their own words to y^e Iudges be so. Paschasinus & Lucentius Vicegerents to the See Apostolike saide: If it please your highnes, Actio. 16▪ concil. Chalcedonen. we haue somwhat to say to you. The most glorious Iud­ges answered; say what you wil. Paschasinus & Lucentius sayd, yesterday after your H. were risen, & we followed your steps, there were certaine things de­creed, as we heare; which we think were done besides the order & Canons of the church. We beseech you therfore that your excellencies would cōmand the same to be red again, that the whole [coūcel or] cōpanie may see whether it were rightly or disorderly done. The Popes Legates could not then com­maund in ge­neral coūcels. The most glorious Iudges answered: If a­ny thing were decreed after our departure, let it be read againe. And before the reading, Aetius the Archdeacon of Constantinople said: The maner is in Sy­nods, after the chiefest points are cōcluded, to dispatch such other things as be needful. We had somwhat to do, for the church of Costantinople. We praied the bishops [that came] frō Rome, The Councel of Chalcedon proceeding without the Romish Legates. that they would [stay &] communicate with vs. They refused, saying, we may not, we are otherwise charged. We acquain­ted your honors with it, & you willed that this holy coūcel should cōsider of it. Your highnes then departing▪ the Bishops that are here, conferring of a cōmon cause, required this to be done. And here they are. It was not done in secrete, nor by stealth, but orderly and lawfully. They were absent as you see, & because they were required & refused, the Councel proceeded in their absence and decreed without them on this wise.

Following euery where the steps of the sacred fathers, Chalcedo. Cōcil. cano. 28. actio. 15. repetitur actio. 16. For what cause Rome had the supre­macie giuen her. we determine & de­cree the selfe same thing [which they did] for the priuiledges of the most holy church of Constātinople being new Rome. Our fathers not without good aduise gaue to the throne of elder Rome the chiefest place of honor, because that city raigned [or was the Seat of the kingdome] And the hundred & fifty Bishops which were gathered vnder Theodosius the [...]lder in the royal city of Constanti­nople, moued with the same consideration; bestowed equal [& like] priuileges on the most holy throne of new Rome: hauing great reason to determine that the Citie which is now honored with the Empire and Senate should enioie equal priuiledges with the elder Royall Citie of Rome, and in Ecclesi­asticall affaires bee aduanced as the other, beeing the second after her.

Neither Leo nor his Legates would euer consent to this decree.

I care not for that. First the iudgement & opinion of the coūcel of Chalcedon is cleare with vs, that the chiefest honour and highest place was allotted the Bi­shop [Page 80] of Rome, not as Christes Uicar, nor as Peters successour, but in regard of his citie, that was Imperiall. Next, the same consideration now seruing them, to aduaunce Constantinople, which moued their fathers to preferre Rome, they thought it lawfull for them to make the Bishop of Constantinople equall with the Bishop of Rome: and so they did, notwithstanding the Legats of Leo laboured tooth and nayle to preuent the same.

They placed the Bishop of Constantinople next after the Bishoppe of Rome, not in equall degree with him.

The Bishop of Rome kept his place, which was first in order among the Patriarkes, when they went in coū ­cell; and next after him was the Bishop of Constantinople to sit before the Pa­triarkes of Alexandria and Antioche: but in playne termes the Councell of Chalcedon gaue y^e See of Constantinople [...]; equall priuileges with elder Rome, and in causes ecclesiastical to be aduanced as far forth as Rome.

Against the Councell of Chalcedon if you oppose the Legates or letters of Leo, you make but a slender match. In this Councell were sixe hundred & thir­tie Bishops, double the number of the Nicene Synode; and Leo was led with priuate respects to crosse this Canon,Why Leo was so earnest a­gainst this Canon. as loth to see the Bishoppe of Constanti­nople rise too fast, for feare least at length he should offer to pricke before y^e Bi­shop of Rome, which in deede came to passe not long after in the dayes of Gre­gorie the first; and therefore the fathers lightly reiected all that his Legates could say, when the matter came the second time to voyces, as appeareth in the sixteenth Action of the sayd Councell, where the Iudges, after either side had proposed what they could,The Romish Legates & their alle­gations re­iected the second time in the Coun­cel of Chal­cedon. Eiusdē Concilij [...]c [...]io 16. The selfsame priuileges that Rome had, giuen to Constanti­nople. The Pope had no nega­tiue in Coun­cels. resolued on this wise: By these things that haue bin done and alleaged we perceaue the first and chiefest honor, according to the Canons, is reserued to the Archbishop of ancient Rome: and moreouer that the Archbishop of the Royal Citie of Constantinople, which is new Rome, must enioy the selfesame prerogatiues and priuileges &c. Thus we conceiue you. Nowe let the sacred and oecumenical Councels speake their mindes. The reuerend Bishoppes answered: This is a right iudgement; wee all say the same; euery one of vs is well contented therewith; this is a good decree; let this determination stande in force: all this is orderly concluded: wee pray you demisse vs; wee al continue in the [...]ame mind. Lucentius Vicegerent to the Bishop of Rome replied: The See Apostolike, which gaue vs this in charge, must not be abased by this decree. And therefore whatsoeuer was yesterday concluded in our absence to the preiudice of the Canons, we pray your excellencies to commaund that it may be put againe to voices. Yf not, that our protestation against it may be set downe in record, that wee may knowe what to informe the Pope of the Vniuersal Church. The Iudges an­swered: That which we pronounced, the whole Councel hath approued.

The Synode approued it, but the Bishop of Rome resisted it.

You confesse that which I would inferre.

What doe I confesse?

That the Councell made this Canon, the Legates of Leo gainsaying it.

The more to blame they that did it.

So you reuerence generall Councels when you be disposed: yet this is apparant that the councel of Chal­cedon ouer ruled the Bishop of Rome, Canons made in Counceles mauger the Bishop of Rome & his legates. Liberatus Cap. 13. Concilij sexti Constantinop. Cap. 36. and mauger his Legats that were pre­sent & earnest against it, they concluded without them that which they most mis­liked. Neither could Leo for al his eger & sharpe resistance preuaile with them or against them; the Christian Emperours still fauouring, and the sixt gene­rall Councell againe confirming that which their fathers before them had en­acted at Chalcedon. Renewing the decrees of the 150. fathers that met in this royall Citie of Constantinople, & of the 630. Bishops which assembled at Chalcedon, we likewise determine, that the See of Constantinople shall haue e­quall priuileges and honors with the Seate of elder Rome, and in ecclesiasti­call matters be aduanced as farre forth as it, being next vnto it.

Which wordes are falsely reported or rather lewdly corrupted in your Ca­non lawe, by putting a negatiue to the later part of them that draweth y^e whole to a contrarie sense;How the Popes law vseth ancient customes. Distinct. 22. Renouantes A monsterous corruption of a councel tur­ning an affir­matiue into a negatiue. Non tamen in ecclesiasticis rebus magnificetur vt illa, sed se­cunda post illam existens, And yet for all that, shall not [the See of Constantino­ple] be aduanced in ecclesiasticall affaires as high, as Rome; but be the second after her. And so where the Councell decreed, that Constantinople shoulde bee aduanced in ecclesiasticall matters as farre forth as Rome, you falsifie y^e words and conclude, that Constantinople shall not bee aduanced as farre foorth as Rome, which is no forgerie.

Let him answere for it, that did it.

Bee your decrees no more worth nowe than to bee thus shaken off, to shift for themselues? Not long since they were the fairest flower in your garland: but if you renounce your Canon law, we will presse you no farther with it.

Not so neither.

Then howe can you salue this shamefull corruption?

Perhaps it was mistaken.

And neuer after perceiued?

I do not say so.

Why then not amended;Africani concil, Cap. 92. The Canon law glozeth the Councell of African quite against the text. Caus. 2. quaest. 6. placuit. Saint Austen forged to make the Popes decre­tals of equall authoritie with the scriptures. De doctrina Christiana, lib. 2. Cap. 8. but openly suffered?

An error it might be, wilfull it was not, I dare sweare.

Is your Canon law so free from wilful corruptiō, that you dare sweare for it?

As I thinke.

How doeth it handle the wordes of the Mile­uitane and Africane Councell, which I last alleaged? Ad transmarina qui puta­uerint appellandū a nullo intra Africam in comunione suscipiatur. They that offer to appeale ouer the seas, let them be receiued of no man within Africa to the communion. That is true saith your lawe, nisi fortè Romanam sedem appel­lauerint: vnlesse perhaps they appeale to Rome. And so where the councel pur­posely decreed this, to keepe all men from Rome, your lawe wittingly peruer­teth their words, and addeth, except they appeale to Rome; Which is both a ridiculous and malicious corruption.

The like prancke you play for authorizing your decretals out of S. Augu­stine, and making them equall in credite with the canonicall Scriptures. In which wordes you not only commit grosse forgerie, but also runne into haynous blasphemie. For where S. Augustine sayth: In canonicis autem scripturis, ecclesia­rum [Page 82] Catholicarum quam plurium autoritatem sequatur, inter quas sane illae sint, quae Apostolicas sedes habere, & epistolas accipere meruerunt. In [esteeming] the Ca­nonicall scriptures, let [a Christian man] follow the authoritie of the greater number of catholike churches; amongst whom those [Churches] are, which deserued to haue both the seates of the Apostles, and to receiue their letters. Your canon law turneth and altereth his words thus:Distinct. 19. In canonicis. Inter quas [scripturas Ca­nonicas] sane illae sint quas Apostolica sedes habere & ab ea alij meruerunt accipere epistolas: In the number of which [Canonical scriptures] let those epistles bee, which the Apostolike See [meaning Rome] hath, and others haue receiued from her. And least you should thinke any other Epistles are ment than such as the Bishops of Rome themselues wrate, in fayre red letters before the text these wordes are placed:Rubricae Ibidem Inter Canonicas scripturas, Decretales epistolae connumerantur. The Decretall epistles [of Popes] are counted [by S. Austen] for Canonicall scriptures. What greater blasphemie can be deuised or vttered against Christ & his spirit than that the Popes Epistles should bee canonicall scriptures, that is of equall authoritie with the worde of God? And how farre S. Augustine was from any such thought, the very place, which your law so wickedly peruerteth, doth best witnes.Glosa Ibidem. First you grossely mistake the antecedent to the relatiue, Inter quas [scripturas] for Inter quas [ecclesias.] Next you chaunge the nominatiue case into the accusatiue, and the accusatiue into the nominatiue, as also the plurall number into the singular; saying, quas Apostolica sedes habere, for quae Apostoli­cas sedes habere. Thirdly you put in these words of your own heads; & ab ea alij: which are not in S. Augustins text. And so where S. Austen saith, Among the which those Churches are, that deserued to haue the seates of the Apostles, and to receiue their letters, you say plainly: Among which (Canonical scrip­tures) those Epistles are, which the Apostolike see (of Rome) hath & (which) others haue deserued to receiue from her. I report mee to your owne consci­ence Philander, whether this be not a barbarous kind of corrupting the fathers, which is often vsed in your canon law, as I could shew, but that I should make too long a digression.

If it be naught I excuse it not.

Come you with an if, as though the case were not cleare?

A man may be soone ouerseene.

These be shrewd ouersights. But returne to the matter that was first in hande.

The britanes 4000 yeare a­goe woulde yeelde no sub­iection to the Popes legate. Beda lib. 2. Cap. 2. Bed. histo. gentis Anglorum lib. 2. Cap. 2.The Britanes are the last that I named, but not the last that resisted the Bi­shop of Rome; whom Augustine the Monke, that came from Gregorie, coulde by no meanes get to yeeld him any subiectiō, though king Edelbert slew twelue hundred of their Monkes in one day for refusing obedience to that Romish Le­gate.

Beda sayth so many were slayne, but he sayth not for that cause.

Beda confesseth that seuen Bishops of the Britanes, & plures viri doctissi­mi, and many very learned men vtterly refused Augustine, when they met him in a Councell. His woordes bee: At illa nihil horum se facturos, neque illum pro Archiepiscopo habituros esse respondebant. Conferentes ad inuicem, quia si modo nobis assurgere noluit, quanto magis, si ei subdi ceperimus, iam nos pro nihilo contemnet? [Page 83] The Britanes answered they woulde doe none of those thinges [which hee required] neither would they acknowledge him for their Archbishoppe. Casting thus with themselues, that if nowe hee will not so much as rise to vs, howe litle accompt will hee make of vs, if wee become subiect vnto him?

The auncient Brittish Storie, which Galfridus Monemutensis transla­ted, writeth thus of them:Galfrid. mone­mutens. lib. 8. Cap. 4. In a part of the Britanes, Christianitie yet florished, the which beginning in the daies of Eleutherius neuer failed a­mong them. After Augustine came he found seuen Bishopriks and an Arch­bishopricke supplied with yery godly gouernours; & Abbies a great nūber, in which the flock of Christ was kept in good order. Besides other Cities, in the Citie of Bangor there was a most noble Church of 2100 Monkes, all liuing with the labor of their hands. Their Abbat was named Dinooch a man marueously well learned. Who by diuers arguments made it appeare, when Augustine required the Bishops to be subiect to him, that they ought him no subiection. Edelbert therefore the king of Kent, as soone as he saw them re­fuse to yeeld obedience to Augustine, 1200 monks in one time chose rather to die than to be subiect to the Bishop of Rome. and despise his preaching, stirred vp E­delfride and other Princes of the Saxons to gather a great armie, and goe to Bangor to destroy Dinooch and his Clergie. Who taking the Citie comman­ded the swordes of his men to be turned first vpon the Monkes, & so twelue hundred of them the same day decked with Martyrdome entred the king­dome of heauen.

Lower, if I would go, examples are infinite, where the Bishop of Rome hath beene not only stayed of his course, and ouerruled, but seuerely repressed and de­priued of his Papacie.

By some tyrants or schismatiks I warrant you. For neuer Catholike Prince or Bishop would offer him that abuse.

Fit­ten not so fast least you recant it with shame. Godly Princes and prelats, your owne Cardinals and Councels haue without any scruple,Concili. Laterae. sub Innocentio 3 Cap. 4 The Grecians detesting the Bishop of Rome. Paul. Aemil. in Philippo 4. Idem Aeneas Syluius, lib. 9. epitomes in de­cades Blondi. Sessio vltima Florentiae in literis vnionis. Graecorum res­ponsio in vlti­ma sessione Florentiae▪ cited, suspended, and deposed him: which I trust is a plaine kind of resistance.

If they did all that which you speake.

I speake no more than your owne men doe witnesse.

The Grecians I will omit, that neuer obeyed; and long since so detesteth both him and his Church, that if at any time the latine Priests had celebrated on their Altars, they would not offer on the same, except they first washed them, as (thinking them thereby to be) defiled. Michael Paleologus their Emperour they reiected from Christian burial, for that in a councel at Lyons he professed the Greeke church to be subiect to the Romane See.

But after in the Councel of Florence they submitted themselues to the Bishop of Rome as to the true vicar of Christ & head of the whole church & father & teacher of al christiās.

When y^e questiō was first moued thē at Florence, their answer was, We haue no leaue [nor cōmission from the greeke church] to speak these things. And being vrged the second time, responderunt vt pridie, they answered as before, nolentes, vt de alia quaestione, praeter illā de spiritus sancti [Page 84] processione, in vnionis literis vlla mentio fieret; not willing that in the letters of vnion any other matter should be contained besides the proceeding of the holy Ghost. And though they were wonne at length to suffer it to passe in the letters of concorde, hoping the West Princes vpon that perfect agreement would ayde them against the Turke,Platina in Eugenio 4. and two of them were made Cardinals, that by their authoritie the Greeke nation might bee kept in obedience: Yet the whole Countrie, saith Platina, non ita multò post in antiquos mores recidit, not long after fell to their former bent: but I will not vrge the dislike betweene the two Churches. The West Church will serue my turne better and stop your mouth sooner, in the which we shall finde presidents enowe for this purpose.

Luitprand. li. 6. Cap. 10. Ibidem Cap. 7. The germans against the Bishop of Rome. Platina in Gregorio 6. Otho the great called a Councel of Bishoppes in Italie, where Iohn the 13. was deposed for his infamous and lewd life: the thinges bee so lothsome that I will not name them. This fact of the Prince and the Synode, the Church sawe, suffered, and allowed, and receiued Leo the eight placed by them in his steede.

Henry the seconde likewise in a Councell draue Benedict the 9. Syluester the thirde, and Gregorie the sixt, three most vile monsters, to forgoe the Pope­dome, and chose Clemens the second to succeede them.

About Henry the fourth and Gregorie the seuenth though the stories bee di­uided, some taking the Princes and some the Popes part: yet the Bishoppes of Germanie and Italie from Woormes, Mentz and Brixia sent him but homely greetings, as Vrspergensis confesseth.Cronicon Abba. Vrspergensis. In the yere of our Lord 1076 saith hee, there was kept a Councell at Wormes, where king Henry being present, al­most all the Bishops of Germanie, except the Saxons, deposed Pope Hilde­brand, writing him a letter after many crimes recited with this conclusion: For so much then as thine entrance [into the Popedome] is infected with so great periuries; and the Church of God dangerously tossed by reason of thy nouelties; and thy life stayned with so manifold infamies; wee let thee vn­derstand, that as we neuer promised thee obedience, so hereafter will wee yeeld thee none; & because no man amongst vs (as thou openly gauest out) hath bene hereto accounted a Bishoppe by thee, thou also from henceforth shalt be taken by none of vs for Apostolike.

The Bishops and nobles at Brixia concluded against him in these woordes: Because it is certaine that he was not chosen by God, Ibidem anno 1080. This was he that first ven­tred to de­pose Princes. but by fraude and bri­berie most shamelesly intruded himselfe; which also subuerteth the order of the Church, and troubleth the Christian Empire, which practiseth to kill both the body and soule of our Catholike and peaceable king, and maintai­neth a periured king which hath sowed discord betwene those that agreed; strife betwene those that were at peace; offences betwene brethren; and di­uorces betweene man and wife; and hath shaken whatsoeuer stood quiet a­mongst the godly; we assembled togither in the name of God agaynst the said Hildebrand a most impudent person, breathing out sacrileges & spoiles, defending periuries and murderers, calling in question the Catholicke and [Page 85] Apostolike faith of the body and blood of our Lorde, an olde disciple of the heretike Berengarius, an obseruer of diuinations & dreames, a manifest cōiu­rer, & vsing familiaritie with diuels, and therefore fallen from the true faith: adiudge him to be Canonically deposed & expelled. Ibidem anno 1083. The Romans reiected him as wel as the Germans did And this toke place three yeres after when the Romanes desired a day to be appointed, in the which the Pope and all the Senators shoulde come before the Emperour: but the Pope woulde not come in presence, whereupon the Romanes being moued yeelded to the king, and with one consent reiected Pope Hildebrand; who secretly fleeing gate him to Salerna, and there stayed till he dyed.

Henry did this by force, and the Bishops that so reuiled the Pope were of his faction:Platina in Gregorio 7. The later Italians make Hil­debrand a Sainct for his presump­tion against the Empe­rour. Beno Cardinal. de vita & gestis Hildebrandi. Sigibertus in anno 1084. but the stories commend Gregorie the seuenth for a wise, iust & milde man, a fauourer of the poore, of orphanes and widowes, and the only stout and earnest defender of the Romane Church against the treacheries of heretikes and power of ill disposed princes, seeking to possesse the goods of the Church by violence.

Gregories life I will not examine, it is not incident to this matter. Yet if we beleeue Beno the Cardinall that liued at the same time, he deserueth no such prayse as you giue him; but I respect not that in this place. Certaine it is the Bishops of Germanie and Italie not onley refu­sed but also deposed him; yea thirteene Cardinals of the wiser and better sort, the Archdeacon and chiefe president and many of the Laterane Clergie [at Rome] seeing his intollerable Apostasie, forsooke his communion: and so by the iudgement of the Romanes themselues Hildebrand was turned out of his Popedome.

I know they did it, but therein they passed their boundes.

If the crimes by them obiected were true, they did but their dueties.

Their accusations were all false.

That is lustily spoken, but faintly proued: and yet if it were so, my first assertion standeth good, that your owne Cardinals & Councels haue often resisted, & repressed y^e Bishop of Rome.

And my answere standeth as good, y^t they were schismatikes which did so.

What say you then to the Councel at Pisa, Platina in Gregori. 12. The general Councel of Pisa deposed two Popes Idem in Ale­xandro 5. where the whole Colledge of Cardinals with one consent depriued Gregorie & Benedict of their Pope­domes, all nations allowing that strait sentence, besides [a few] that fa­uoured Benedictus: and Alexander the fift on his death bed protesting their actes in that Councel to be good and lawfull? Will you nowe replie that all nations, and all the cardinals, yea the Pope himselfe were schismatikes? Or if you care not for that, what say you to the generall Councell of Constance that deposed as many Popes as the Councell of Pisa, and not only de facto did it, but also expressely and aduisedly decreed that they might doe it? Dare you thinke the Councell of Constance to be schismatical? And what if the general Councel of Basill by manifest positions conclude you an heretike, for holding that a Coun­cell may not depose the Pope? will you rather incurre the guilt of heresie, than forsake your new found diuinitie?

You load mee with too many allega­tions at once. I can not tell which to answere first.

I will seuer them with a good will, say what you can against them. The general Councel of Pisa [Page 86] deposed two Popes and chose Alexander the first: ergo the Pope may bee both resisted, and depriued by a Councell.

Was that Councell generall?

Reade the Bull of Iohn the 23. conuocating the Councell of Constance, Concil. Constan­tiensis sessio. 1. Their church allowed the Councel of Pisa for sacred and generall. Laziardi histo­riae vniuersalis epitome ca. 267. Dudum felicis recordationis Ale­xander Papa quintus, praedecessor noster in sacro generals Pisano Concilio tunc praesi­dens &c. Not long since Alexander the fift of happie memorie, our predeces­sor, then sitting chiefe in the sacred generall Councell at Pisa. Laziardus a writer of that age sayth: Both Colleges of Cardinals, or at least the most part of them, called a generall Councell at Pisa, where they stayed from the An­nuntiation of the virgine Marie till the xxvi. of Iune, with a great number of Prelats & Ambassadours of Kings, Princes, & Vniuersities. Vpon which day, those [two] which stroue for the Popedome, being first depriued by sentence, and order of lawe in all thinges obserued, they chose Alexan­der the fift.

Doe al stories agree that they deposed Gregorie and Benedict?

See Blondus, Auentinus, Nauclerus, Sabellicus, Paulus Aemylius, or whome you will.Iohannes Nau­clerus in anno 1408. The Cardinals of Gregorie and Benedict, sayth Nauclerus, meeting & conferring, resolued the citie of Pisa to be the fittest place for a general coū ­cel to be kept. Whereupon by letters and messengers they called al Bishops, Prelats, Princes & cōmunities to come to the Coūcell, that should be held at Pisa, exhorting them to send their Legats, & to withhold obedience from those [two] Popes, whom they had cited to be present there. In the yeere of our Lord 1409. at Pisa they began to proceed, Two Popes condēned by the councell of Pisa for he­retikes and schismatikes. and against both Popes Gre­gorie and Benedict, not appearing vpon lawfull citation, but wilfully refusing, they pronounced sentence of deposition and depriuation, as against here­tikes and schismatikes: forbidding all Christians to cal either of them Pope, or yeld either of them obedience as Bishop of Rome. This done they went to the election of an other, whom they called Alexander the fift.

Might they cal and keepe a Councell without any Pope?

Looke you to that.Ibidem. The Cardi­nals conclude it lawful for them to cal a Coūcel with­out the Pope, and if neede be to depose hym. Nauclerus addeth that About the deposition of these two Popes there was a great debating in the Councel of Pisa; whether (graunting that both these Popes did scandalize the Church by manifest collusion, and per­iurie, &c.) the Cardinals might cal a councel, & both of them being cited to come to the Councell, & not appearing but persisting in their contumacie, whether they might be deposed, and an other chosen. And after long dispu­tation in the presence of very many Doctors of diuinitie, and of both lawes, no man gainesaying, but all consenting, it was concluded that it might bee lawfully & canonically done. Marke Philander: a generall Councell called without a Pope, and two Popes deposed in the same for not appearing before the councell, & al this good & lawful by the iudgement of your owne Cardinals, diuines and Canonists, without contradiction, and the Pope himselfe accepting this for a sacred and ecumenicall Councell.

I maruaile they went so farre.

Neuer maruaile at that.The Councel of Constance deposed three Popes. Constantiensis Con cilij sessio. 1. Sessione 3. Sessione 10. & 12. Sessione 37. The Pope cō ­demned for an incorrigi­ble heretike & schismatike. Sessio. 4. & 5. Sessio. 3. Sessio. 4. & 5. The general Councel of Constance which followed fiue yeres after this, went a great deale farther. For when Iohn the 23 had by his letters called the Councell, and sate amongst them in person as pre­sident and head of the Councell, the first thing they did, they began to sift him; and notwithstanding he fled and left the Councel without Uicegerent or depu­tie, yet they proceeded, and not onely suspended but also depriued him for his notorious Symonie and detestable and vnhonest life and maners. And like­wise when by no meanes they could get Gregorie the 13 to resigne or appeare before them, they condemned him for a schismatike and an heretike incorrigi­ble, and cut him off as a withered member. And least you shoulde thinke this rashly or lightly done, they solemnly decreed that the Pope was subiect to them and bound to obey them, & could not without their liking dissolue or remoue the councell, and to that end they did frustrate and reuerse all that was done or might be done by the Pope present or absent to the preiudice and disturbance of their Synode. Can you wish for playner examples that a Councell may pro­ceede without and against the Bishoppe of Rome, than these be?

I confesse they make me stagger;Their owne Church hath allowed and honored these Councels. and yet I dare not trust them, vnlesse the Church receiue them.

And doth your church nowe mislike the pro­ceedings at Constance and Pisa, which the church of Rome then and all other nations, by the witnes of your nearest frinds, approued and followed as right and syncere?

I refuse not the Councels.

But doth your Church allow them for general?

I think she doth.

Keepe your thoughts to your self; my question is whether your Church accept them, or no?

Shee doth not reiect them.

Answer directly. Doth your Church embrace thē, or no?

Shee doth.

You might haue sayd so rather; what needed this circumquaque to no purpose? Then I inferre; the doctrine of your church, litle more than eight skore yeres agoe, was, that a Councell might ouerrule and de­pose the Pope, and the same Councel be called and kept without him, if he col­luded or refused. This is proued, as well by the deedes of the councels of Con­stance & Pisa, which are alreadie shewed; as by their decrees, which are extant to this day. What was concluded at Pisa by generall assent, I sayde before: what the Councell of Constance resolued in the like case, their words shall declare.

First this holy Synode [of Constance] lawfully congregated in the holy Ghost, Constantiensis Synodi sessio 4. The Pope boūd to obey his own coun­cels. Sessione 5. being a general councel, and representing the catholike church mi­litant, hath power immediate from Christ, the which [power] euery one of what state or dignity soeuer he be, yea the Pope himself is bound to obey in those things that concerne the faith & general reformatiō of the church of God, in the head & mēbers. Again it declareth that whosoeuer of any cōdi­tion, state or dignitie, yea though he be Pope, shal stubburnly refuse to obey the statutes, ordinances & precepts which this sacred Synode, or any other general coūcel lawfully gathered, hath already made or shal hereafter make concerning the premisses, or any their appertinents, except hee repent hee [Page 88] shal be driuen to condigne satisfaction and dewly punished, and if need be, o­ther helps and remedies of law and Iustice vsed. Ibidem. Item this holy Synode orde­reth, defineth, determineth and declareth, that if our sayd Lord the Pope be­ing required for vnities sake by this sacred Councel, do refuse to forsake his Popedome, or defer the renouncing thereof longer than he should; as then, so now; and as now, so then; shal be counted by al Christian faithful men to be depriued of his Popedome, and al obedience withdrawen from him.

And not herewith content after they had cited and expected him, they proceeded first to his suspention, and after to his depriuation in this wise:Sessio. 10. Pope Iohn suspended for his Pope­dome. Because it plain­ly appeareth to vs, that our Lord Pope Iohn the 23. from the time that hee was chosen to the Popedome til this present, hath il gouerned that office to the publike slaunder of himselfe & the Church, and with his damnable life & filthie manners hath giuen and yet giueth to others an example of loose life; and moreouer hath by playne Symonical contracts sold Cathedral churches, Monasteries, Priories and other Ecclesiastical benifices; therefore by this our sentence we pronounce and decree the said Lord Pope Iohn worthie to bee suspended from al administration of the Popedome, both spiritual and tem­poral, and wee doe suspend him, and by this writing forbid him the executi­on thereof. And we declare that for and vpon the premisses, as being notori­ous, we ought & mind to proceed to the final reiecting him from the Pope­dome. Wherefore we streitly prohibite you and euery one of you by the te­nor of these presents in vertue of your obedience, & vnder payne to be coun­ted fauourers of this schisme, whether you bee kings, Cardinals, Patriarkes, Archbishops, bishops or whatsoeuer, spiritual or secular persons, that you, nor any of you, directly or indirectly hereafter obey, regard or assist the sayd Pope Iohn being iustly suspended by vs from al intermedling with the Popes function &c.

Sessio. 12. Sententia defi­nitiua contra Iohannem Papam 23. The Pope so­lemnly de­priued.The very same causes they repeat when they depriue him, adding that his departure from the Citie and sacred generall Councell of Constance, closely by night, at an vnseasonable houre, in strange and dissembled appa­rel, was vnlawful and scandalous to the Church & the Councel, as troubling and hindering the peace and vnion of the Church, nourishing an inueterate schisme, and swaruing from his vowe, promise & oth: & therfore say they, the sacred general councel of Constance by this definitiue sentence here cōprised in writing, pronounceth, adiudgeth and declareth the saide Pope Iohn, as vnworthie, vnprofitable, and hurtful, to be remoued, depriued, and deposed from the Popedome, and from al spiritual and temporal administration ther­of: & therwithal doth remoue, depriue, and depose him: declaring al christi­ans of what state, or degree or condition soeuer they be, to stand quiet and discharged from his obedience, and the fidelitie, and oth, which they haue made to him: Inhibiting al the faithful of Christ hereafter so much as to call him Pope, being now deposed from his office, or to cleaue to him or any way to obey him as Pope.

You repeate this at large, that the simple might see how solemnely the Pope was deposed.

I doe in deede, and you must thinke they looke for your answere.

How hastie you be when you haue a little aduantage?

How loth you be to come to that which at length you must? For say Philander, might the Councell of Constance do that which they did,Not lōg since the Pope was subiect to Councels by the confessiō of their owne Church, and now he wil be Lord ouer them. or no? You holde a Wolfe by the eares, I can tell you.

The truth is, I finde my selfe in some straite. If I say they did well, then I confesse that a Councell may lawfully resist and depriue the Pope, for all this they did; if I say they did e­uill, then must the Councell of Constance be schismaticall in offering Christs Uicar so great and open wrong; and the Church of Rome yea the Catholike Church that allowed and honored their actes and decrees, fowly deceiued; and Martin the Sixt whom this Councell elected, and the Christian world obeied, no lawfull successour, but a violent intruder: which God forbidde I shoulde af­firme.

Then if you dare not say the Synode did euill, you must yeelde they did wel, and consequently the point which you first doubted, is fully pro­ued; that a Councell may lawfully controle, correct, and depose the Pope, not­withstanding you make him chiefe iudge on earth & head of the whole Church.

Was Pope Iohn lawfully chosen?

You search euery angle, but in truth you can not scape.In Ioan. 24. it should be 23. To quarell with Pope Iohns electiō is to no pur­pose.

Platina saith some such thing.

So some would shift the matter; but if his entrie to the Popedome were not good, his summoning the Councell of Constance could not bee good, and so this Synode neuer lawfully called. Next the Councell did not reiect him as vn­orderly chosen, nor disclaime him for no Bishop, but remoued him from the function which he had, as vnworthy the same. And their generall decree, by which they define the Pope to be subiect to the Councel, must not be referred to wrongfull inuadors, but wholy restrained to lawfull possessors of the Romane See: else, no masterie for the Councell to bee superiour to those that were no Popes, but onely vsurpers. And therefore if there were any fault in his elec­tion, since the Councell did omit the same in his depriuation, and proceeded a­gainst him for other crimes, it can do you small pleasure.

Did hee not submit himselfe to their definitiue sentence, and with his owne mouth ratifie their actes whatsoeuer before they ventered to de­pose him?Pope Iohn when he sawe no remedie, submitted himselfe to their wils, but did not au­torize them to bee his iudges. Nauclerus in anno 1415. Vide Constan. Synodi sessionē 11.

When Pope Iohn sawe the Duke of Austria proscri­bed and adiudged by the Emperour to forfeit all his goodes and landes, for helping and receiuing him in his flight, and himselfe now brought backe and kept in prison, to abide the determination of the Councell; and foule matters obiected against him, and witnesses produced and examined vpon the same: & being already suspended from his Popedom by the Councell, & then required to say for his defence what he coulde; and warned against the next day to bee present in the Councell, to heare the iudgement that should be giuen vpon the premisses: what maruell if hee seeing no way to preuent that which the Synod would execute, thought better to please them with a forced humilitie, than to prouoke them to farther bitternesse with a bolde defiance? But did the Coun­cell [Page 90] ground themselues vpon that his submission, or else did they deriue their au­thoritie from Christ without the Pope, & aboue the Pope?The Councel grounded themselues neither on Pope Iohns permission nor submissiō, but on their owne power & proofes.

I know they cha­lenged their power immediatly from Christ.

By that you may see they ment to exclude the Popes consent & allowance; which also well appeared by their doings. For they cited, suspended, conuicted, imprisoned, & assigned him a tearme to receiue iudgement before euer he came to that submission. And last of all, if you could light on it, there is a great difference betweene confessing the proces, & referring himselfe to the discretion of the Councell, which Pope Iohn did at length much against his stomake, & authorizing the Iudges to proceede, which they neither did aske, nor would accept at his handes.

And least you should thinke I mistake the Councel of Constance, y^e Councel of Basil, which began 14. yeares after, doth not only confirme that which I de­fend, but also repute you for heretikes that egerly withstand it. Their words be these:Basiliensis con­cilij sessio 33. The Councel of Basill a­gainst the Pope. Veritas de potestate Concilij generalis supra Papam, declarata per Constantinē ­se, & hoc Basiliense Concilia generalia, est veritas fidei Catholicae: veritas haec; Papa generale Concilium actu legitimè congregatum, sine eius cōsensu nullatenus potest au­toritatiue dissoluere, aut ad aliud tempus prorogare, aut de loco ad locum transferre, veritas est fidei Catholicae. Veritatibus duabus praedictis pertinaciter repugnās, est cē ­sendus haereticus. This position that a general councell hath power ouer & a­boue the Pope, declared in the generall councell of Constance & Basill, is a truth of the catholike faith. Againe that the Pope by no means can dissolue, defer, or translate a generall councell lawfully called & once sitting of his own authoritie, without the consent of the said councell, this is likewise a truth of the catholike faith. These two former truthes he that stifly denieth, must be taken for an heretike. Now choose whether you will forgo your asser­tion, or else abide the verdict of your own Councell.

Against the Councel of Basill much might be saide if time and place did serue.

Time and place do serue, except you relent, by their illation to conclude you an heretike.

That Councell was neither generall, nor lawfull.

It is not e­nough for you to say the worde, you must tell vs why.The Cardi­nals and the Bishops be­gan to be so busie with the Pope, that the Church of Rome is forced to re­nounce hir owne Coun­cels.

They bent them­selues against Eugenius the fourth, and did what they could to thrust him from his Seate.

Perhaps Eugenius deserued no lesse.

No, they did it vpon a faction, in fauour of the Duke of Millan, that hated Eugenius.

Contention is no iust exception against a Synode. For so you may refuse the best that euer were. But what can you say, why the Councell of Basill shoulde not be counted in your Church both lawfull and generall? Was it not orderly summoned as your manner is? Were not all nations called? The Bull of Martin the fift is extant, by the which the Councell was first indicted; and Eugenius himselfe, that struggled a while to dissolue the Councell, was glad at length to chaunge his tune, and to retract all that hee had done in dero­gation of the Synode, and with an other Bull fairely subscribed with the Cardinalles handes, to confirme and confesse the Councell of Basill to bee a [Page 91] generall, sacred and lawfull Councell. And here you shall see a plaine president that the Princes and Bishops assembled at Basill not onely resisted Euge­nius, labouring what hee could to disperse them, but also forced him to yeeld, and acknowledge the lawfulnesse of their Synode.

Eugenius, Platina in Eu­genio 4. Eugenius for­ced to allow the Councell of Basill, by reason of the number that tooke part with the Sy­node. saith Platina, much distressed first with warres on euery side, next for that he saw the councell of Basill began by Pope Martins decree, daily increase; the Princes of Spaine, Fraunce, Germanie and Pannonie repai­ring thither, and referring the common cause of christendom to the iudge­ment of the councell; meaning to shut it vp, translated the same from Basill to Bononia by the consent of all the cardinals that were about him. But the Emperour and the rest of the Princes and Prelates that were at Basill, were so farre from obeying the Pope, that they summoned him twise or thrise to present himselfe with his cardinals at Basill, chosen by Pope Martin as a fit place to keepe the councell in; otherwise they would proceed against him as a transgressor and wilfull refuser. Eugenius troubled with this mes­sage, confirmeth the councell of Basill with his Apostolike letters, licencing all men to go to the councell.

I graunt they resisted Eugenius, but I doubt of the Councell whether it were lawfull or no.

Will you trust Eugenius himselfe?

If he say the word.Basiliensis con­cilij sessio 16. Eugenius bull for the confir­mation of that councel.

Thus he saith: Not long since for certaine causes expressed in our letters, and by the consent and aduise of our brethren the cardinalles of the church of Rome, we dissolued the sacred general councell of Basill law­fully begun by the decrees of the generall councels of Constance and Senes, & by commission from Martin the fift, & likewise from vs. Mary seeing great dissention hath risen, & greater may rise by the saide dissolution, wee deter­mine & declare that the foresaid generall councel of Basill from the first be­ginning of it was & is lawfully continued, & alwaies hath, yet doth, & ought to dure, as if no dissolution had bin made. And that our affection and inte­gritie to the sacred generall councell of Basill may plainly appeare, whatso­euer hath beene done, attempted, or alleadged by vs, or in our name, to the preiudice or derogation of the sacred generall councell of Basill, we vndoe, reuoke, frustrate, and annihilate.

If this be enough, Nicolaus the 5. that came next after Eugenius vpon the composing of the schisme betweene the Councell and the Pope,The Bull of Nicolaus the 5. for the like purpose. Bulla Nicolai 5. super appro­batione actorū & gest. in con­cil. Basiliensi. gaue out a ge­nerall Bull for the confirmation of all their doinges without exception. Om­nia & singula tam iustitiam, quàm gratiam concernentia per ipsum tunc Basiliense Concilium qualitercunque facta, gesta, concessa, data, disposita & ordinata cuius­cunque naturae existant, motu proprio ex certa scientia & de Apostolicae potestatis plenitudine, de consilio & assensu venerabilium fratrum nostrorum sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae Cardinaliū praesentium serie approbamus, ratificamus, & etiā confirmamus, rata (que) & firma haberi volumus. All & euery thing, that concerneth either fa­uor or iustice, done, deuised, granted, giuen, disposed & ordred by the coūcel of Basil, of what nature soeuer, we of our own motiō & certain knowlege by [Page 92] the fulnesse of our Apostolike power, and with the assent and aduise of our brethren the Cardinals of the holy church of Rome, allow, ratifie, and con­firme by the tenor of these presents, and will haue to stand sure and firme. So that the Councell of Basill hath ill lucke, if after all these buls it bee not both a lawfull and generall Councell.

The Bishops of Rome, that came after, neuer liked y^e Councell of Ba­sill; but we will not striue for that: we shall see what you will inferre.

No newes for Popes to mislike that which pared their ambition, and hindered their gaine, as the Councell of Basill did: but can you, or they denie y^t the Coun­cell was orderly called?

I do not stand so much on that.

Then I conclude,A Councell might then commaund, correct, and depose the Pope: & now they will be obeied aboue and against Councels. that a Councell may lawfully resist, commaund, correct, and de­pose the Pope; for so did the late Councels of Pisa, Constance, and Basill (which your Church then helde for sacred and ecumenicall) both determine in wordes, and practise in deedes. You must confute, or confesse this illation.

I haue saide what I coulde, and all will not helpe. The Councels you proue to be generall: and I see they not onely resisted and deposed Popes, but also concluded it lawfull for them so to do.

Then you confesse they did and might resist the Pope.

Coun­cels I graunt might, and did; but not others.

Why may not others do the like?

They must rather obey than resist.

We dispute not as yet, whether it be lawfull or no for euery man to resist the Pope, the cause being iust; and when that commeth in question, you must shewe good and ap­parent reason why they may not: that which I first auouched was this: your owne Cardinales and Councels, your owne friendes and fellowes, which you may not count schismatikes and heretikes,The Pope in the midst of his pride resi­sted by his owne crew. haue stoutly resisted him, and re­strained and limited his dominion, euen in the middest of his pride and ioylitie. For Councels I haue saide sufficient: Now for others.

The famous Uniuersitie of Paris, which I thinke you will not condemne; and the whole kingdom of Fraunce haue often times opposed them-selues a­gainst the Pope, and withdrawne their obedience from him in part or in all as occasion required.

For some monie matters it may be they withstood his Collectors and Officers.

The Diuines of Paris openly confuted the conclusions and articles of Iohn the 22. touching the beholding and seeing of God,The Diuines of Paris con­demned Pope Iohns do­ctrine with the sound of trumpets. Gerson serm. in festo Paschae reperitur in 4. parte operum. Iohannes Ma­rius de schism. & concil. cap. 2 [...]. and gate the same to be condemned before the king of Fraunce with the sound of trumpets, as Gerson reporteth. By this, saith he, appeareth the falsitie of [Pope] Iohns doctrine, which was condemned with the sound of trumpets before Philip king [of Fraunce] by the Diuines of Paris, and the king beleeued the Diuines of Paris before the [Popes] court. And Ioannes Marius, Iohn the second Pope that sate at Auinion, fell into suspition of heresie. For he taught and defended certaine articles touching the sight and vision of God, which the Diuines of Fraunce, king Philip taking their part, very freely contradicted.

The yeare before the Councell of Pisa, which I last spake of, was gathered, [Page 93] when Benedict the 13. would yeeld to no reason, for ending the schisme between him & Gregory the 12. Charles the French king,Laziard. Epi­tom. cap. 267. Ioan. Marius cap. 22. The French king dischar­geth his realm from the Popes obedi­ence. Naucler. gene­ratio. 48. circae annū 1438. The Pragma­ticall sanctiō maintained in Fraunce an 100. yeares against the Pope. with the aduise of the Bishops, Princes, and Vniuersities of his Realme caused himselfe to bee proclaimed adherent [or obedient] to neither of the twaine; & by them all it was decreed, that the whole Church of Fraunce should depart from the o­bedience of Benedict, and by the authoritie of this Councell, all the French Cardinals forsooke him.

When the Councell of Basill was ended, the Germans, the king of France, the king of England, the Prince of Millan, & others fauored the same with all their power, neglecting Eugenius authoritie, then sitting in the Councel of Florence: and the rather to giue it full force and effect, in the kingdome of Fraunce, Charles the 7. in a Parliament at Burdeuz made a law, called the Pragmaticall sanction, for the perpetuall obseruation of those thinges, which the Councell of Basill had decreed. And this law the Bishops of Fraunce, and Schole of Paris defended and followed almost an hundred yeares, in spite of al that Pius the 2. Sixtus the 4. Innocentius the 8. and other Bishops of Rome could do to the contrarie.

Did the Bishops of Rome labour against it so long, and coulde not preuaile?Robertus Gua­guinus in Caro. 7.

First heare how well they did like it; and then how long they did impugne it. The [Pragmaticall] constitution made by the authoritie of the Councell of Basill, the Bishops of Rome, that came after, detested as a pernicious heresie; and not one of them, the Synod of Basill once dissolued, did euer allow the same. Which well appeareth by the message that Pius the 2. sent to Lewes the 11. for the repealing of this constitution, as the king him­selfe reporteth,Ludouic. Pio 2. inter Epist. Ae­neae Syluij Epi. 388. writing backe to the Pope in these wordes: We haue consen­ted to those thinges which were aduertised vs in your name [by your Le­gate a latere] to wit, that the Pragmaticall sanction grieued and iniu­red both you & your See, as being made in the time of sedition, & schisme, & subuerting all right, & all law by taking what authoritie they list frō you. And this besides, which the same [Legate] in the name of your holines affir­med, that whereas by this Pragmaticall constitution, the authoritie of your supreme Seat in the Church is restrained, & a castle of libertie prouided for the Prelats of our Realme; & vnitie & conformitie towards your Seat (as o­ther kingdoms obserue) is refused; Guaguinus in Ludouic. 11. The Bishops of Fraunce & the vniuersity of Paris with­stod the Pope labouring to abrogate the pragmaticall sanction. Ibidem. the foresaide law is to be remoued & a­bolished out of our Realme, as made by inferiour Prelats against your See, the mother of all Churches.

By these perswasions, and with vrging a former promise, Pope Pius the 2. (a great fauourer and expresse defender of the Councell of Basill before his pro­motion, though after blinded with ambition, of all others he most detested the pragmaticall sanction, & called it heresie,) wan the kinges good will and had his letters to the Senate of Paris for the repealing of this law: but neither the kings Atturny, nor y^• Bishops would cōsent therto. Yea the Schole of Paris feared not to resist the (Popes proctor) appealing to the (next) general Coūcell.

[Page 94]This wisedom and freedom the Clergie men of Fraunce and students of Pa­ris shewed and vsed in maintaining the Pragmaticall sanction against diuerse Popes from the yeare of our Lord 1438. till the yeare 1516. which Leo the 10. (that in our dayes wrested it out of their handes) is forced to confesse. We weigh with our selues howe many treaties haue past betweene Pius the 2. Sixtus the 4. Innocentius the 8. Alexander the 6. and Iulius the 2. Bishops of Rome, Lateranensis Concil. sub. Leo. 10. Sess. 11. in bulla quae inci­pit, primitiua. Fiue Popes before Leo had labored in vaine a­gainst that law. our predecessors, and the most christian kinges of Fraunce for abolish­ing a certaine constitution called the Pragmaticall, bearing great sway in that kingdom: and though Pius the 2. by his Legats sent to Lodouike the 11. perswaded him with so many reasons, that the king himselfe by his letters Patents did abrogate the said Pragmatical sanction as autorized in the time of seditiō & diuisiō; yet neither the said abrogatiō, nor the Apostolike letters of Sextus [the 4.] made vpon concordates with the Ambassadours of the said Lodouike were receiued by the Prelates and Ecclesiasticall persons of Fraunce; neither would the saide Prelates and Clergie obey them, or giue eare to the admonitions of Innocentius and Iulius aforenamed, but woulde needes sticke and cleaue still to the said Pragmaticall sanction. And when vpon agreement with Frauncis the French king Leo the 10. in a Councel at Rome did abrogate the said constitution, & pronoūced it vtterly void, the whole Uniuersitie of Paris in the yeare 1517. appealed from the Pope and his assem­bly to a generall & free Councell. Their wordes be worth the hearing.

Appellatio v­niuersitatis Parisien. repe­vitur in fasci­culo rerum ex­petendarum. Paris appea­leth from the Pope. The Pope may lawfully be resisted. The French king cōmaun­ded the Pra­gmatical san­ction to be obserued in his Realme whe­ther the Pope would or no. The Diuines of Paris denie the Popes as­sembly to haue the ho­ly Ghost. Because he which is Gods Vicar in earth, whō we cal the Pope, though he haue autority immediatly frō God, yet is not therby free frō sin, neither hath receiued licence to sin: so that we must not obey him, if he decree any thing against the diuine precepts, but rather may lawfully resist him, &c. And wher as the coūcel of Basil made many good & holsom decrees for the increase of Gods seruice, & health & peace of others, which Charles the 7. a most religi­ous aduācer, & excellent preseruer of the worship of God, & Ecclesiasticall honor, in that famous coūcel of the church of France held at Burdeux caused to be recited, & cōmanded to be kept inuiolable, as euer since they haue bin kept & obserued, &c. But now the Romanes eger on their own lusts & gains; & perceiuing by this meanes siluer & gold not to come out of the kingdō, & delphin [of Frāce] as before it did, & as they wish it should; spiting these laws, haue oftē practised to haue them abrogated by the Bishop of Rome, which hitherto by Gods helpe hath bin withstood; vntill Leo the 10. came, who, fa­uouring the Romanes more than he should, in a certaine meeting at Rome, which is we know not how, but surely not in the holy ghost gathred against vs, hath decreed we know not vpon what reason, the said holsom statutes to be abolished, & opposing him self against the catholike faith & authority of sacred generall councels, hath condemned the holy councell of Basill, &c. Therefore in these writings we appeale from our Lord the Pope, not well aduised: & frō his infringing the sacred coūcel of Basill, & the Pragmaticall sanctiō, to the next councel that shalbe lawfully & freely called. So far your [Page 95] own fellowes, in this very age wherin we liue, durst & did resist your holy father.

And least you should think y^• only scholers & not Bishops, were of this opiniō: the prelats of France not past 7. yeares before this appeale, in a coūcel at Tours, gaue their ful resolution to Lodouike the 12. that it was lawfull for him to for­sake the Popes obedience,Cronicon. Mas­saei, in anno 1510. The French Bishops re­solue their king that the Pope might be forsaken & his censures neglected. & to despise the Popes curses. An. 1510. the French king gathered a councel at Tours, where he proposed these questions: whe­ther it were lawfull for the Pope to wage war with a Prince for no cause: & whether such a Prince defending his own, might inuade the beginner, and withdraw himselfe from his obedience. The councel answered, the Pope might not: & the Prince might do that which was demāded, & that also the Pragmatical sanction was to be kept throughout the Realme of France: nei­ther need the king to care for [the Popes] vniust cēsures, if he cast out his thū ­derbolts. This answer of the councel the king sent to Iulius, who when Peters keies would not preuaile, drew out Pauls sword, & w^t the shedding of much chri­stian blood, sought an vnchristian reuēge. The French mē, saith Erasmus, which with their blood gate Iulius so many notable triūphs, Adagiorum Chiliadis 2. cē ­turia 5. adag. 10. by his means, with the spilling of a great deal more blood, were thrust out of Italy, & as though that were too litle, followed with all kind of reproches: & if death had not preuē ­ted Iulius, we had seene that most florishing kingdom vtterly ouerthrowen.

They gat nothing, you see, by withstanding the Popes keies.

Chri­stendom hath gotten lesse by w^tstanding the Turke, & yet that doth not make his cause good: but Lodouike the 12. did herein no more than Philip y^e faire king of France also did before him, & put the Pope to the worse.

What did he?

He not only contemned the Popes Buls & curses,King Philip of Fraunce v­sed the Pope in his kinde. Laziardus hi­storiae vniuer­salis epitom. ca. 247. but clapt his Legat by y^e heels, sequestred himselfe & his whole realm from his obedience, & at length caught y^e Popes own person, & kept him in prison til he died.

Durst he be so bold w^t his holines?

How bold y^e king of France was, a frier, as you bee, shal tel you. Bonifacius the 8. minding to send an armie to Hierusalem, & ho­ping to get Philip [of France] to furder the matter, sent the Bishop of Apamea to the king: who, when he perceiued he could do no good, began to threa­ten king Philip that he should be depriued of his crown, if he did not satisfie the Popes request; & was therfore by the commādement of the king cast in prison. Which done, Bonifacius a mā aboue measure arrogāt, pretending that Philip had violated the law of natiōs would needs be reuēged, & sending the Archdeacon of Narbon into Frāce, forbiddeth Philip to take any more of the church reuenues, wheras before, the king (& that Bonifacius could suffer) had one yeares fruit of euery vacāt church which we cal the kings due: farther he denoūceth that the crown of Frāce is deuolued to the church of Rome by Philips cōtumacy, The Pope claimed to be the depriuer of Princes. adding that if Philip refused this, he would pronoūce both him & those that fauored him heretikes: moreouer he appointed the bishops & certain Abbats with the diuines & Canonists a day to appeare before him at Rome, & withal declareth the charters & grāts bestowed on the Frēch by the bishop of Rome to be void. This message done by the Archdeacō with pride [Page 96] enough, Philip set the Bishop, which was kept in ward for his lewd wordes, at libertie; and charged him with speede to depart the Realme; & the next spring the Prince gathered an assembly at Paris, & rehearsing the iniuries that he had receiued at Bonifacius hands, asked first the Bishops of whō they held their lands & reuenewes; The king re­futeth the Popes claime then turning himselfe to the Nobles, & you my Lords, saith he, whom do you take for your king & ruler? (both) answe­ring without staie, that they helde & inioyed all those things by his Prince­ly lawes: but, saith the king, Bonifacius so dealeth, as if you & the whole Realme of Fraunce were subiect to his See. For the Empire of the Almanes, which he thrise denied Albert, hath he now giuen him and also the king­dom of Fraunce. The French king promi­seth to defend the libertie of his land a­gainst the Pope. But we thanking you for your fidelitie & good will, & tru­sting to your helpe, doe promise to defende the libertie of our Lande. The Councell risen the king by open Proclamation forbad all men to carrie gold, siluer, or any other thing out of his Realme, a paine set for the brea­kers of this Edict; & besides watch & ward was appointed at euery passage & port to apprehend those that came in, or went out of his Countrie. And not long after a (second) Councell of Bishops and Nobles were assembled at Paris, where they discussed Bonifacius claime to the kingdom of Fraunce, the Fathers affirming that Bonifacius was vnworthie to be Bishop, for that he was an homicide, and an heretike, whereof they had witnesses present. Therefore with one consent, they concluded that Bonifacius ought not to be obeyed, The Realm of Fraunce con­clude the Pope ought not to obeied. vnlesse he first cleared himselfe of that he was charged with: Af­ter this king Philip taking the pride of Bonifacius in very ill part sent some to intimate his appeale against the iniuries of Bonifacius, who (belike meaning to gratifie the king) caught the Pope in his fathers house at Anagnia, whēce the proud Prelate was led to Rome, & cast in prison, where within foure & twentie daies he ended his life, either by violence, or else for griefe of hart. Thus died Bonifacius like a dogge, that went about to strike a terrour into Emperors, Kings, Princes, Countries & Commonwealthes rather than any religion; & which assaied to giue kingdoms & take them away, to aduance men and pull them downe at his pleasure. Wherefore it was truely saide of him, he entered like a Foxe [craftily] liued like a Lion [furiously] & died like a dogge [shamefully.] Thomas Wal­singham in Ed­wardo 1. anno 2304. The French king would suffer none of his lande to go or send to Rome. Sabell. Ennea­dis 9. lib. 7. Platina in Bo­nifacio 8.

This is but one mans iudgement.

Yet a man of your owne side: and if our English Monkes do not deceiue vs, it was the prophesie of Cae­lestinus his predecessor, who sayd to him, Thou hast entered like a Foxe, thou wilt raigne like a Lion, & shalt die like a dogge: but the truth of the storie is it that I seeke for, and that in effect, a few circumstances altered, is confessed by the best of your writers: and this they adde, which I would haue you marke; that the king not only withdrew his obedience from the Pope, but also restray­ned his subiectes from sending or going to Rome. So Sabellicus; Philip of­fended with Bonifacius, by open Edict forbad all French men to go to Rome, or to send any mony thither. So Platina; The king meaning in part to re­uēge [Page 97] the wrōgs which the Pope had done him, made a law, that none of his Realme should go to Rome, AEmylius in Philippo 4. or send mony thither. So Paulus AEmylius; The Bishops and prelats of France were commaunded by Bonifacius to appeare at Rome by a certaine day. The king suffered no man to depart out of Fraunce: which you thinke much her Maiestie should at this present in a far better cause commaund within her dominions.

One Swallow maketh no summer.

One such Sommer is able to mar the Popes haruest: but herein the king of France is not alone, the kings of England haue done the like.

Which of them?

I could easily name them, but I need not. The ancient Lawes & Liberties of this Realm permit no man to go out of this land, nor appeale to Rome without the kings consent.

Uery ancient I promise you:The auncient lawes of this Realme are against resor­ting and ap­pealing to Rome. Math. Paris in Guilielmo 2. anno 1094. 500. yeares a­goe no Bishop of this Lande subiect to the Pope. Ibidem. those lawes were first made by king Henrie the 8. about fiftie yeares since. Is not that great antiquitie?

The lawes that I speake of are 500 yeares old, and were in full force vnder William Rufus, and Henrie the 1. the Sonnes of William the Conquerer.

Did they restraine their subiectes from going to Rome?

Whether they did or no, iudge you.

When Anselmus Archbishop of Canterbury asked leaue of William Rufus to go to Rome; the king replied, that no Archbishop nor Bishop of his realm should be subiect to the Pope or court of Rome, especially since hee had all those liberties in his kingdom, which the Emperour had in the Empire. And for this cause was Anselmus conuented by the king as an offendour a­gainst the State. And to this accusation did the most of the Bishops except the Bishop of Rochester giue their consentes. And for that he ventered ouer the Seas to Rome without leaue, All his goods & cattels were seased to the kings vse, all his actes & proceedings in the Church of England reuersed, & himselfe constrained to liue in banishmēt during the life of king William. Which An­selmus in his Epistle to Pope Paschalis complaineth of in this sort.

The king requireth of me, Anselm. Epist. 36. ad Pascha­lem. Was this Land then thinke you, subiect to the Pope? that vnder pretence of right, I should yeeld to his pleasures, which are repugnant to the law & will of God. For he woulde not haue the Pope receiued, nor appealed vnto, in his Land, without his cō ­maundement; neither that I should write to him, or receiue answere from him; or that I should obey his decrees. In all these thinges and such like, if I demaunded aduise, all the Bishops of his Realme denied to giue me any, but according to the kings pleasure. After that I asked licence of him to goe to Rome, vnto the Sea Apostolike, the king answered, that I offended against him for the onely asking of leaue: and offered me, that either I should satis­fie him for the same, as a trespasse; by assuring him neuer to aske this leaue any more, nor to appeale to the Pope at anytime hereafter; or else that I should speedilie depart out of his Land.

And after in the time of king Henry the 1.Math. Paris in Henrico 1. anno 1104. when the said Archbishop was re­turning home frome Rome, the kings Atturney in his masters name forbadde him to enter the Land, vnlesse he would faithfully promise him to keepe all the customs both of [William conqueror] his father, & [William Rufus] his bro­ther. [Page 98] And K. Henry as soone as he perceiued the Pope & the Archbishop to continue their former opinion [against his liberties] presently seased the Bi­shoprike into his hands, The two Archbishops bani­shed for re­sorting to the Pope. Idem anno 1119. and arested all Anselmus goods.

The like successe had Thurstane Elect of Yorke, who gate leaue of K. Henry the 1. to go to the councell of Rhemes, giuing his faith that he would not re­ceiue consecration from the Pope: & comming to the Synode, by his liberal gifts as the fashion is, wan the Romanes fauor, & by their meanes obtained to be consecrated at the Popes handes: which as soone as the king of England knew he forbad him to come within his dominion.

To this & other such liberties of the crown, K. Hēr. the 2. not long after made al his Bishops & Nobles to be sworne,Mat. Paris in Henrico 2. anno 1164. The lawes stood in full force an 100. yeares after the conquest. in a generall assembly at Claredon. In the yeare of our Lord 1164. K. Henrie being at Claredon in the presence of the Archbishops, Bishops, Abbots, Priors, Earls, Barons & great men of the realme, there was made a rehearsal or acknowledgemēt of some part of the Customes & liberties of his Ancestors, to wit of K. Henrie his grandfather & others, which ought to be kept in his realme & obserued of all, to auoide the dissention & discord that often happened between the clergie & the kings Iustices & nobles of the realm. Amongst the which custams being 16. in num­ber these were two.Ibidem. The Iesuites departing this Realme is against the ancient lawes of the same. Appeales to Rome prohi­bited by the old Lawes of this Realme. An oth taken to obserue the same. Ibidem. No Archbishop, Bishop, nor any other person of the realme may go out of the land without the kings leaue. For appeales, if any be made, they shal come frō the Archdeacō to the bishop, & frō the Bishop, to the Archbishop; & if the Archbishop faile in doing iustice, it shalbe lawful to come last of al to the king, that by his cōmandement the matter may bee ended in the Archbishops court, so that no mā shal proceede to appeale any farther, without the kings consent. This acknowledging & recording of the customes & liberties of the crown, the Archbishops, Bishops, Abbots, Priors [yea] the clergie with the Earles, Barons & all the Nobles sware, & by word of mouth faithfully promised should be kept & obserued to the king & his heires for euer simply without fraud.

The selfsame writer, that you bring, dispraiseth those customes, & calleth them wicked & detestable.

His report is the stronger against you, in that he was a Monke & a misliker of those lawes; & his iudgemēt against vs, the wea­ker. For these princely dignities had preuailed from the Conquest til that time, & were in that age, yeelded & sworne vnto by the Bishops & clergy of his realm: & are in themselues, if you list to discusse them, agreeable both to the sacred scri­ptures & ancient councels, notwithstanding some Friers & fauorers of the Ro­mish See did then & doe now to their power withstand them.

Thomas of Canterburie made a sainct for resisting his Prince.S. Thomas of Canterbury withstood them vnto death, & chose rather to lose his life, than to yeeld to any such customes.

Do you make him a Saint for resisting his prince, or else for sauing certaine lewde priests from the due pu­nishment of the princes lawes?

I count him a martyr for spending his blood in defence of the church liberties.

Their rage that slew him I do not com­mend, because it was done by priuate violence not by publike authority: but his [Page 99] stout stāding in a peeuish quarrel against his oth, against his prince to purchase impunity for homicides & other hainous offendors against the common course of law & iustice, I thinke in these daies you dare not openly defend, for feare least the world cry shame on you.

You charge him with more thā you can proue.

I charge him with no more than your friendes & his are forced to confesse.

Archbishop of Canter. when he had granted these [16.] lawes, (which this superstitious monk calleth) wicked & detestable, Mat. Paris Ibidem. Thomas Bec­ket the first that impug­ned the liberty of this realme. & promised with an oth to keep them: examining diligently that which he had rashly done, afflicted himself grieuously, & sent straightway messengers to the court of Rome to si­gnifie the grief of the church & his own, & asked absolution from the band which he had vnwisely entred into, which also he obtained. The same yeare K.H. meaning as he said, to punish with due seuerity the disorders of al sorts, affirmed it to be against reason that he should deliuer to the bishop such clergie men vnpunished, as were conuicted before his Iustices of any publike & hainous crime. And therfore he decreed that whō the Bishops sound guiltie in the presence of the kings iustice, they should degrade and deliuer to the kings court to be punished. The Arch­bishop stan­deth against the king in defence of theeues and murtherers. The Archbishop held on the contrary, that they ought not to be punished by laymē after they were degraded by the Bishop, lest they shold be twise punished for one thing. The occasiō of this strife was giuē by one Philip de Broc, a canō of Bedford, which being indicted of murder, spake reprochfully to the Iudge: which when he could not deny before the Archbishop, he was depriued of his prebend, & exiled the land for 2. yeares. The Archbishop seeing the liberties of the Church now troden vnder foote: without the kings knowledge, tooke ship, & intended to go to Rome, but the wind being against him, he was driuē back to the shore. And immediat­ly vpō that when he was called to accompt for the whole receits, that came to his handes whiles he was Chauncelor of England, least he should vniustly be cōdemned, he appealed to the See of Rome, & vnder paine of excōmuni­cation forbad as well the Bishops as all the nobles to giue sentence against him, The fine shift of a rebell to saue himselfe. The Monke fauoreth the rebellion of the Bishop. that was there both their father and their Iudge. The Nobles and Bi­shops, that were called by the king for this purpose, without conuiction or confession of his gaue iudgement against him [alleaging and] protesting the priuilege of himselfe, & his church. The Archbishop driuen to this extremi­ty and forsaken of al the rest of the Bishops, hoysed the crosse which he held in his hand aloft: & marched away frō the kings court in the eyes of thē al, & the next night stale frō the place, & gate him ouer to Flaūders, & so to y^e Pope. He brake the oth which he took, for the keeping of the foresaid lawes & liberties of the crown:The dutiful­nesse of Tho­mas Becket. he claimed a freedom for theeues & murderers y^• they should not be subiect to the princes power: he refused y^e kings court, & appealed to the pope for a matter of debt, lest he shuld rēder an accoūt of his tēporal office whiles he was Chācelor; which of these three points cā you now w^t learning or honestie defend?

The liberty of y^e holy Church is a iust & good quarell for a man to die in.

If you meane thereby an impunitie for mutherers & such like offendors, [Page 100] then is it a most wicked and irreligious part for a Bishop to open his mouth for such libertie; much more to resist his Prince for that quarrell.

His quarrel was better than so.

Neubrigensis a man of that age, and one that hono­red the person, and praised the zeale of

Becket, reporteth thus of the quarell betweene the king & him.Gulielm. Neu­brigensis rerum Ang. lib. 2. cap. 16. This is the li­bertie of the [...] church, which Becket stri­ued for with the king. The king, saith he, was aduertised by his Iudges, that many crimes were committed by clergie mē against the lawes of his Realm, as thefts, roberies & murders. In so much that in his audiēce, it was, they say, declared; that more than an hundred murders were done in England by cler­gie men in the time of his raigne. Wherefore the king very much kindled in a vehement spirit made lawes against malefactors of the clergie: which hee thought to make the stronger by the cōsent of the Bishops. Calling there­fore the Bishoppes togither hee so plied them, (what with faire meanes, what with foule) that they al saue one, thought it best to yeeld and obey the kings will, and set their seales to those new statutes. I say all saue one; for the Archbishop of Canterburie would not bow, but stood immoueable. Where­upon the king began to be greatly offended with him, and seeking all occa­sions to resist him, called him to account for those things which he had done before as Chauncellour of the Realme. Now must you shewe that by Gods lawes theeues and homicides, if they be clerks, may not be punished by the prin­ces sword; or if you dare not plead that in these dayes for very shame, then must you grant that your Canterbury saint resisting his Prince where he should not, was an Archrebell against God and the Magistrate:Mat. Paris in Henri. 2. eodem anno. King Henrie the second a­gainst the Pope. Appeales to Rome againe prohibited. In quadrilogo. Treason to bring an in­terdict from Rome. Mat. Paris vt supra. Not lawfull to depart the Realme with­out the kings letters. Banishment to regard the Popes Bul in­terdicting this Land. one of these twaine you must needes choose.

We shal digresse too far, if we discusse these things in this place.

Your stomake, I see, doth not serue you at this present, & wee shall haue some o­ther oportunitie to debate the same: in the meane time learne what lawes king Hērie the 2. enacted & executed, in spite of your holy father & his deuout chaplin.

The king at the returne of his Legates, perceiuing his request [for the confirmation of his ancient liberties] to be repelled by the Pope, not a little offended therewith, wrote letters to all his Shirifes & Lieutenants in Eng­land on this wise: I command you that if any clergie man or lay men in your coūtie, appeale to the court of Rome, you attach him, & hold him in fast ward till our pleasure be known. And to his Iudges in this sort: If any man be foūd to bring letters or mandate from the Pope, or from Thomas the Archbishop, interdicting the Realme of England, let him be taken and kept in prison, till I send word what shalbe done with him. The four that wrate the life & extol y^e facts of

Becket ad to this law: Let him be streightway apprehended for a traitor, & execution done vpon him. Also let no clerk, monk, canon, or other religious person go ouer the Seas without letters of pasport frō vs of our offi­cer; if any venture otherwise, let him be taken & cast into prison. Let no man appeale to the Pope, or to Th. the Archbishop, neither let any suite surcease at their cōmandement. If any Bishop, Abbot, Clerk or lay man shal obserue [their] sentence, interdicting our [Land,] presently let him bee banished the [Page 101] Realme, and all his kindred with him; and their goods and landes confis­cated. Let the Bishops of London and Norwich bee summoned to appeare before our Iustices, and there to answere for interdicting the Land, and ex­communicating the person of Earle Hugh contrarie to the Statutes of our Realm. Thus far the valiant & worthie Prince went in defending his Lawes & liberties against the Bishop of Rome, & how far hee would haue gone, but that the time was not yet come, when God would deliuer his Church from y^e yoke of Antichrist, appeareth by an Epistle of his written to the Archbishop of Cullain in these wordes.

I haue long desired to finde a iust occasion to depart from Pope Alexan­der and his persidious cardinals, Mat. Paris in Henrico 2. anno 1167. The Pope 400 yeares ago a­betted trai­tours against the king. which presume to maintaine my traytour Thomas of Canterbury against me; whereupon by the aduise of my Barons & cleargie, I meane to send the Archbishop of Yorke, the bishop of London, the Archdeacon of Poictiers, (&c.) to Rome, which shall publikely denounce, & plainly propose this on my behalfe, and all the Dominions I haue, to Pope Alexander and his cardinals: that they maintaine my traytour no longer, but rid me of him, that I with the aduise of my cleargie may set an other in the church of Canterburie. They shall also require them to frustrate all that Becket had done, and exact an oth of the Pope, that he and his successors, as much as in them lieth, shall keepe and conserue, inuiolable to me and all mine for euer, The king voweth open­ly to impugne the Pope and all his. the Royal customs of king Henrie my grandfather. If they re­fuse any of these my demands, neither I nor my Barons, nor my clergie will yeeld them any kinde of obedience any longer: yea rather we will openly impugne the Pope, and all his, and whosoeuer in my Lande shalbe founde hereafter to sticke to the Pope, shalbe banished my Realme.

The king made amends for all, when the Archbishop was slaine, renoū ­cing the liberties which he striued for so long, and honoring him as a Martyr whom before he pursued as a traitor.

The manifold deuises & practises of the late Bishops of Rome, (God so punishing the dulnesse, and discorde of Princes, neglecting his truth, and enuying one an other) haue weakened and wearied very many both kings and Emperours, partly with a false perswasion of religion, partly with a number of fayned miracles, but chiefly by drawing their subiectes from them, and setting other nations vpon them; yea by stirring and arming their owne blood and bowels against them. And therefore no mar­uaile if king Henrie relented somewhat of his former stoutnesse, when the king of Fraunce, Math. Paris i [...] anno 1173. This was one of the Popes common pra­ctises. the Earle of Flaunders, the king of Scots, the yong king his sonne, and two other of his children, the Duke of Aquitane and Earle of Britaine, cō ­spired against him; but it is euident, that frō the conquest till y^e time these lawes and liberties stood in their full force and were publikely receiued and vsed in this Realme.

Did the Pope procure him these enemies?

What packing there was betweene the French king and the Pope, though the stories in this place do not confesse, yet we may soone coniecture by the generall drift of your holy Fa­ther [Page 102] & his blessed adherents in those daies, & specially by the exāple of king Iohn the sonne of the said king Henrie, Math. Paris in vita Iohannis anno 1212. Anno 1213. whom (for refusing the disordered election of Stephen Langton to the church of Canterbury) Innocentius the 3. so terrified with open inuasion of enemies, & secret defection of subiects, that for safegard of himselfe he was driuen to resigne his kingdome, & take it againe at the Popes hands in fee farme vnder the yearly rent of a thowsand marks: binding himself & his heires for euer to do the like homage & fealtie to the Bishops of Rome for the crowne of England. The barons of this realme pursued the king in cōtēpt of the Pope Anno 1216. Which shamefull seruitude of the Prince, & vtter ruine of the Realme so much displeased the barōs & bishops, that before toke y^e Popes part against the king, that in plaine contempt of the Popes keies & curses, they chose them an other king, & chased king Iohn, the Popes farmour, from place to place in despite of al y his new Landlord could do or deuise. But this I omit be­cause the quarel touched the right & title to the crown; I medle only w^t those re­sistances, which the kings of England made for men and matters ecclesiastical.

Be not these two lawes an­cient that be as old as the conquest?I trust they were not many.

For the first hundred yeares next the cōquest, it is clear the kings of this Realm would neuer allow their subiects to run to Rome, nor suffer appeals to be made to the Pope without their expresse consent: now shall you see, what they which came after, did.

When king Edw. the 3. reuiued the statute of Premunire (made by king Edw. the 1. in the 35. year of his raign) against such as sought to Rome to prouide thē of benefices & other ecclesiastical promotions w^tin this realm, enacting the same penalty for those that by processe frō thence impugned any iudgement giuen in y^e kings courts, or brought from Rome any Bul, writing or instrumēt to those & other like effects;Polydorus Vir­gilius in Eduar. 3. The Pope would faine haue preuai­led against the statute of premunire, & could not. Ibidem. Gregory the 11. then Bishop of Rome, vnderstanding therof, was very earnest against it, (protesting) this was nothing else but to make a schism in the church of Christ, to abolish religion, to subuert right & reason, & infringe al coūcels; & speedily dealt with king Edw. to abrogate this law. A schisme rising not long after (in the church of Rome) there was not a Pope that had any care of this, til at lēgth Martin the 5. wrote more vehemēt let­ters to K. H. the 6. But these two bishops of Rome receiued one & the same answer; which was that an act of Parliament could not be repealed without the autority of a Parliamēt, & that shortly one should be called to that end, which neuer after was performed. Yea the king that came after did not only cause that law to be kept & put in vre, but increased the terror of it with a ri­gorous punishmēt, which is, that the party so offending shal forfeit his goods & himself be condemned to perpetual imprisonmēt. This writer an Italian born, & a man wedded to the See of Rome, confesseth the Popes authority was abated & restrained by the lawes of this Realm, in the time of king Edward the 3. and so continued euer after; & that not only the Popes letters were twise re­fused, but the sharpnesse of the punishment increased to strengthen the Statute that pared their power, and limited his iurisdiction within this Realme.

Perhaps they w^tstood him for tēporal matters.

The matters were such as your own church accoūteth spiritual; to wit, electiōs of Bishops, gifts of [Page 103] benefices & procedings in other causes; tending, as y^e cōmplaint of Gregory tea­cheth you,In loco supra citato. to the diuision of the church, extirpation of religion, & subuersion of al councels, which you may not thinke to be temporall matters. And this re­sistance which the Bishop of Rome so much repined at, in the daies of king Ed­ward the 3. neuer ceased till king Henry the 8. of famous memory banished the Popes vsurped power cleane out of this Land.

So did none of his progenitors before him.

It may be they wēt not so far as he did;Polydor. in Ri­chard. 2. anno. 1391. but as Polydor writeth, R. Rich. y^e 2. wēt fairly towards it. In a Parliament held y^e 14. yeare of his raigne the king & his princes were of o­pinion that it would be very good for the realme of England, if some part of the Popes dominion were determined with the Sea (that is excluded out of this lād) for that many wer daily vexed for causes, which they thought could not so easily be ended at Rome. Wherefore they made a law that no mā euer after should deal with the Bishops of Rome, No person might pro­cure or exe­cute any cen­sure frō Rome that any person in Englād should by his autority for any cause be excōmunicated, & that none should execute any such precept if it were sent him. If any mā brake this law, the pain apoin­ted was, he should lose al he had, & ly in prison during his life. And where the pope trauailed by al means to ouerthrow y^e statute of prouisiō & premunire, y^e par­liamēt held in y^e 13. year of Rich. y^e 2. for y^e better establishing & surer executing of y^e law, made it death for any mā to bring or send Bul, or other proces frō Rome to impugn y^e same. These be the words: Itē it is ordained & established that if a­ny mā bring or send within this realm or the kings power any sūmōs, Ex Richardo 2. anno 13. sentēce or excōmunicatiō against any persō of what cōditiō that he be, for the cause of making motiō, assent or executiō of the said statute of Prouisors (or premu­nire) he shalbe takē, Richard the 2. made it death to bring any summons or sentence from Rome. Princes may resist the pope in their Parli­aments as wel as Bishops in their Synods. arested, put in prison & forfeit al his lands & tenements, goods & catle for euer: & moreouer incur the pain of life & mēber. So y^e kingdoms & cōmonwelths, as wel as councels: & of al others Frāce & England haue from time to time resisted your holy father in the midst of his terror & tyrany.

You shew they did it: but you do not shew they did wel in it.

I need not, you must shew they did il. The prince by gods ordināce beareth y^e sword, & not y^e pope; therfore y^e presumption lieth for y^e prince against y^e pope, til you proue y^e cōtrary: besids if bishops in a synod may lawfully resist him, why may not princes in their parliamēts do y^e like? Thirdly since y^e Romane Emperors were wōt to cōmand him, what reason cā you bring why christiā princes shold not now restrain him? And last of al, if you forget not your self, my promise was to shew, y^t not in y^e pri­matiue Church only, when there was no question of his obedience to religious princes; but in latter times, when the Bishop of Rome presumed to be Lorde ouer all, he was controled & resisted by those Councels & Common-wealthes, which your owne Church neuer durst reiect as schismaticall and hereticall.They resisted him for the regiment of their Realme, not for the faith of christ.

In some thinges they withstood him, but not in all thinges as you doe.

That shift is litle worth. If resistāce be lawful in part, why not in al, whē iust cause requireth?

In matters of faith they neuer resisted.

That maketh our resistāce the more lawful. They withstood him for an earthly policy, [Page 104] we for Christes glorie; they for externall discipline, we for Apostolicall doctrine. Therefore if they might lawfully resist, much more may we. But my demand is, onely whether you see, that as the Bishop of Rome withstood others in the regiment of the Church, so many Councels & Countries, Princes & Prelats withstood him, as the places, which I bring, conuince?

What if they did?

First did they that which I speake or no?

Grant they did.

Then your examples conclude nothing against vs. For as hee resisted others in causes Ecclesiasticall, so did others resist him: and our examples inferre a­gainst you that your owne Church neuer obeied that supreme power and infal­lible iudgement, which he now claimeth, & you now yeeld, to flatter him with.

They tooke him for Christes Uicar and Peters successour.

How they tooke him in latter ages, it greatly skilleth not; the learned and an­cient Fathers call him Peters successor, Christes Uicar they neuer call him. And graunt he be Peters successor, that importeth no supremacie.

Doth it not?Many things to be proued (which are starke false) before the su­premacie will follow.

No mary doth it not. You must first proue that Peter was su­preme gouernour of all the Church: which you shall neuer do. Next you must proue, that this dignitie was not proper to Peters person, but common to Pe­ters successour, which we denie. For Peters primacie was giuen him in respect of the confession which he made, not in respect of the place which he should inioy. Lastly you must shew which of Peters chayres must haue Peters priuiledge; that is, why Rome rather than Antioch. These three points when you iustly proue, we will say more to your vaine pretences and glorious titles: in the meane time, till occasion serue to make farther triall, you may go forwarde with the rest of your Apologie; which if it be like this, it will do your friendes litle good, and your foes lesse hurt.

You disgrace that which you can not disproue.

Wee neede no better disproofe, than the sober reading of your insolent and impertinent dis­courses purposely made to commend and aduaunce your selues and your adhe­rentes aboue the skies.They must flatter the Pope, that liue of his almes, as you do.

Where do we so?

Almost in euerie leafe. For example, this whole chapter is spent in flattering your holy Father, & prai­sing his deuout citie. The next hath nothing else, but the commendation of your selues & your Seminaries; as if the proclaiming of his & your vertues, were the chiefest point of his and your faith.

You say not well, we do not so.

Reade the places, you shall finde them full of these and such like flowers. To Rome Whatsoeuer is learned, Apolog. Cap. 2. wise, vertuous, of all the most famous Vniuersities, Mo­nasteries, Societies and Celleges through the world, is recuiled as to a continuall mar [...] of all kinde of doctrine & prudence. Ibidem. And againe: These and such other high experi­ments with innumerable examples of vertue and deuotion shall this Romane institu­tion giue to our Countrimen, vnder the famousest teachers & gouernours of youth in our age, or som worlds before: Who otherwise would admire their pety masters at home, the cause of al error & ignorāce. Ar you not liberal in praising your selues? Belike you thinke with your only looks to daūt all the Diuines & preachers of Englād, as if not a fewe wandring friers & craking Iesuites, but some new Cyprians, or [Page 105] famous Augustins were lately arriued at your Romish Seminarie. But let passe your follies & come to your autorities. To what end aleage you S. Hierō?

S. Hierom calleth [Rome] the place of greatest faith and deuotion. Praefat. lib. 2. in episto. ad Gal. Esa. 1. Nahum. 3. Rome is not that it was.

What then? Ierusalem was first a faithfull Citie, & yet in time became a shamelesse strumpet. Niniueth was spared for her true repentance, & afterward plagued for her robberies and lies. What Rome was then, doeth no way proue what Rome is now. You must send vs better reasons from Rome & for Rome before you shall perswade vs, that there is at Rome such store of learning and vertue as you vaunt of. If Rome be changed since Hierom wrate, your conclusiō halteth, though his wordes goe right.

That change you must proue.

Alas good Sirs, begin you now to doubt whether Rome be changed?Rome chainged. Mantuanus Syluarum lib. 1. Reade your owne Friers, Monkes and Abbots, and you shall soone be resolued in that doubt. Frier Mantuan sayth shortly, but truely:

You that wish to liue godly, depart from Rome; al things are there suffred saue godlines. Mathew Paris a Monke of S. Albons, euery where toucheth y^e vertues of the church of Rome, & saith they were known to the verie miscreants. For when y^• Souldan of Iconium desired to be baptised from Rome, Math. Paris in Henrico 2. sub anno 1169. his nobles by reason of so many vices abounding at Rome, sayd, Howe can there come sweet and salt water from the same fountaine? whence Christians should fet the water of righteousnes, Idem in Henrie 3. anno 1241. there they find a poysoned pudle. And in the yere of our Lord 1241 he sayth: The vnsatiable greedines of the Church of Rome so increased, confounding right and wrong, that without shame as a com­mon & impudent harlot, she lay open for money to euery man, counting v­surie for a small fault, and Symonie for none.

But no man more liuely describeth the maners and dispositions of the latter Romanes than Bernard Abbot of Clareuallis, Bernardes report of the Romanes in his time. Bernardus de. consideratione ad Eugenium lib. 4. and that not priuily behind their backs, but openly to their faces: forewarning Eugenius the pope what to looke for at their hands: Quid tam notum seculis, quàm proteruia & fastus Romanorum? Gens insueta paci, tumultui assueta. Gens immitis & intractabilis, vsque ad huc subdi nescia, nisi cum non valet resistere. Experire paucis, nouerim ne & ego gentis mores. Ante omnia sapientes sunt vt faciant mala, bonum autem facere nesciunt. Impij in deum, temerarij in sancta, seditiosi in inuicem, emuli in vicinos, inhumani in extraneos. Hij sunt qui subesse non sustinēt, praeesse non norunt, superioribus infideles, inferioribus importabiles, inuericundi ad petendum, ad negandum frontosi. Importuni vt accipiant, inquieti donec accipiant, ingrati vbi acceperint. Docuerunt linguam suam grandia loqui, cum operentur exigua, largissimi promissores, & parcissimi exhibitores, blandissi­mi adulatores, & mordacissimi detractores, simplicissimi dissimulatores, & malignissimi proditores. What hath been so famous for many yeres, What exam­ples of vertue & deuotion the Romane institution hath giuen. as the frowardnes and hautines of the Romanes? A nation not acquainted with peace, accustomed to tumults. A nation fierce & intractable, to this day not able to be ruled, but when it cannot resist. Listen a while whether I knowe the manners of [Page 106] that people or no. [The Romanes] are wise to do euill, good they know not how to do. Irreligious toward God, presumpteous against holy things, sediti­ous among thēselues, enuious to their neighbours, vncurteous to strangers. They wil neither obey, nor can tel how to rule; vnfaithfull to their superiours, vntolerable to their inferiours: shameles to aske, & bold to denie. Importune to haue, vnquiet til they haue, & vnthākful when they haue: great speakers & litle doers. If we should say as Ber­nard doth I deeme you would be angrie. Most liberal to promise, most loth to performe: most sweet to flat­ter, most bitter to backbite; most curious dissēblers, most mischieuous traitors. Lupi sunt, &c. They bee wolues, not sheepe: of such art thou shepheard: If I durst speake all, they be rather pastures of diuels than sheepe.

If this be true, they be changed in deed.

The truth thereof you may not wel doubt, vnlesse you wil now returne him for a liar, whom Alexander y^e 3. 400. yeres since did canonize for a saint: but wil you stand to his iudgemēt whose name you pretēd?

What els?

Thē gaine you litle for the cōmendation of Rome. S. Hieroms report of the madnes of Rome. Hieron. praefat. lib. 2. in Episto. ad Gala [...]as. Idem in Esaiae Cap. 2. Idem ad Prin­cip. Mar­ [...]elle Epitaph. Idem aduersus I [...]ianum li. 2. Idem praefat. in lib. Dydimi de­spiri [...] sancto. For Hierom doth attribute no more to the Romanes than Paul doth to y^e Iewes, which is to be naturally zealous. And this as in true religiō we compt it praise worthie, so whē error preuaileth nothing is more pestilent. Again, this one vertue of theirs is by & by requited in y^e very same place with two shrewd vices. Rursus facilitatis & superbiae arguuntur. Paul noteth the Romanes, saith he, to be proud of nature, & easily seduced. What els he found in thē, & what he thought of thē, you shal soone perceiue, if you list to beleeue him. Narrant historiae tam gracae quālatinae, nihil Iudaeorū & Romanorū gente esse auarius. The stories both greek & Latine confesse, none to bee more couetous than the Iewes & the Romanes. Difficile est in maledica ciuitate non aliquā sinistri rumoris fabulā contrahere. It is an hard matter in this slanderous citie [of Rome] to be free from il tongues. Nul­lane fuit alia in toto orbe prouincia, quae reciperet praeconiū voluptatis, nisi quam Petri doctrina super Petrāfūdauerat Christū? Was there neuer an other place in al the world to receiue this voluptuous doctrine, but that which Peters preaching had built on the rock christ? Cum babilone versarer, & purpuratae meretricis esse co­lonus & iure Quiritū viuerē, ecce olla illa, quae in Hieremia cernitur, a facie Aquilonis cepit ardere, & Pharisaeorū conclamauit Senatus, & omnis quasi indicto sibi praelio do­ctrinarū aduersū me imperitiae factiō coniurauit. Whiles I staied at Babilon, & was an inhabitant of that purple whore, & liued amongst the Romanes, beholde the pot which was seene in Hieremie frō the North began to seeth, & the Se­nate of Pharisees made an vprore, & the whole faction of rude & ignorant, as it were in defiance of learning, conspired against me. He y^• saith the Romans be zealous, addeth also y^t they be couetous, enuious luxurious & proud pharises. Lay your one vertue to these foure vices which Hierom saw growing, and Bernarde found ripe at Rome, Cyprian and Augustine forced by the Iesuites to make for Rome. Cypri. epist. 55. vel li. 1. epist. 3. and tell vs what you get by this accompt.

With as great discretion you cite the words of S. August. & S. Cypriā for the praise of the see of Rome, drawing S. Augustins words frō their true meaning, & corrupting in Cyprian both the saying & the sense. For S. Aug. saith, Heretikes barke in vaine, at the church, not of Rome, but of Christ. And Cyprian meaneth himself, not y^t bishop of Rome, whē he saith: Ob hoc ecclesiae praepositu persequitur, vt [Page 107] gubernatore sublato atrocius atque violentius circa ecclesiae naufragia grassetur. The aduersarie for this cause persueth the bishop of the church, that the gouernor being made out of the way, the shipwrack of the church may follow with the greater mischief & violence. Other words in y^• epistle which you quote there be none: & these differ much from the words which you alleage.Apolog. Cap. 1. They baul against the Pastor, the sooner to sease vpon the flocke, as Cypriā speaketh. And so with three may­med and miswrested authorities you close vp the loosenes of your secōd chapter.

S. Aug. surely meaneth y^e see of Rome whē he saith,August. de vti­litate Credendi Cap. 17. From the A­postles See, is from the time the Apostles sate or taught in the church. Quae ab Apostolica sede­per successiones Episcoporū frustra circūlatrantibus haerelicis culmen autoritatis obti­nuit: Which frō the Apostolik See, by successiōs of bishops, (heretiks barking roūd about in vaine,) hath obtained the highest authority.

Meane what you wil by Apostolike See: y^e word (frustra haereticis circumlatrantibus, heretikes barking on euery side in vaine) must be referred either to the chiefest, or els to y^e nearest substātiue in y^e sentēce, & Sedes apostolica is neither. The chiefest substātiue is the [catholike] church; the nearest is, the successiōs of bishops on one side, the heigth of authoritie on y^e other side.August. de vti­litate credendi Cap. 17. For thus saith Aust. Shal we dout to cōmit our selues to the bosome of that [catholike] church, which by the confessiō of al mē, frō the Apostles seate [or time] by [many] successiōs of bishops, heretiks barking on euery side in vaine, hath gotten the chiefest credite or authoritie? By this assertiō heretikes did bark in vaine either at y^e catholike church it selfe, or at the successiōs of bishops, or at y^e credite & authoritie which the Church of Christ had by y^e confessiō of al mē. But y^t they did bark in vaine at y^e see of Rome, I find no such thing in these words of Aust.

The church receiued her autho­ritie frō y^e Apostolik See, which is Rome.

The phrase ab ipsa Petri sede, frō Peters seate, which is vsual in S. Aust. & more effectual thē this, doth not signifie frō Rome, but from Peters seat. As Numerate sacerdotes vel ab ipsa Petri sede. Nū ­ber the priests (not frō Rome, August. in Psalmo contrae partem Donati. but) frō Peters seate; that is, frō Peters time. And again, Tenet me ab ipsa Petri sede successio sacerdotū: The succession of priests frō Peters time staieth me in the church. And likewise in this place, Ab apostolica se­de, Idem contrae epistolam quam vocant Funda­menti, Cap. 4. From, not in the Apostles seate. frō the apostles seat, is, euer since y^e apostle sate: & y^t the words following con­firme. For in Rome you can recken but one successiō of bishops: & Austē saith, Ab apostolica sede per successiones Episcoporū, by many successions of bishops euen frō the apostles time. So y^t neither the words which you alleage, should be referred to Sedes Apostolica, the apostolike seate, nor if they were doth y^• phrase infer y^• the church had al her credite frō Rome, but y^• by the confessiō of al men, the [catho­like] Church had bene in greatest credite euer since the time that Peter sate, through the successions of [her] bishops, heretiks barking [against her] in vain.

You said there was nothing in our secōd chapter worth answering: it hath cost you more paines thē you thought.

Your general & dissolute discourses I told you were to litle purpose. For grant y^t some godly men resorted to Rome, whiles the bishop there was equal with his brethren & obediēt to the magistrate, which is all that you proue; what doth this help you, to cōclude that you may now runne to Rome, the Pope clayming and vsurping a newe founde power repug­nant to the scriptures, iniurious to the Church of Christ, and pernitious to the [Page 108] Prince, whom God hath annoynted ouer you.

In our dayes the Pope clai­meth a new found power ouer the church and Prince. Apolog. Cap. 2.The Pope claymeth no such power as you speake of.

What power he claimeth & vseth ouer princes, is too wel knowen for you to denie. The worlde hath had long experience of it, this Realme hath had late. What autho­ritie he chalengeth ouer the Church of Christ, if he did keepe secret, you doe not. You make him the rocke of refuge in doubtful daies & doctrines, the chiefe pastor & Bishop of your soules in earth. The vicar generall of Christ: and he that taketh these titles to himselfe without alowance from God, is an enemie to Christ, & oppres­seth his Church.

God hath allowed the Bishop of Rome that power which he claymeth.

That if you could proue, the matter were answered; & that til you do proue, your popular perswasions are, as I said, but lip-labour, and no way concerne the cause.

That is & shal be proued.

Neuer feede vs with shales, you neuer were, nor euer shall be able to proue it.

Suspend your iudgement till you see the end.

I am content to heare all, mary in the meane time you may not presume that which is but lightly touched by you, to be clerely proued.

We wil not.

By that which you haue done I gesse what you wil do. We haue discussed two chapters of your Apology: where we found nothing but words. And therefore vnlesse you drawe to some matter, I see no reason why I should stand refelling your phrases.

The thirde chap­ter goeth neerer.

The intent of the Popes Seminaries.In your third chapter what shall we find?

The meaning & pur­pose why both our Seminaries were erected.

Your owne purposes you can best tell.

First to draw diuers youth who for their conscience liued in the lowe Countries, from sole, seueral & voluntarie studie, to a more exact methode & course of common conference & publike exercise to be pursued by their superiours appointment rather than their own choyse. Secondly doubting the time of our chastisement might be so long as to weare out either by age, imprisonment, or other miseries, the elder sort of the learned Catholikes both at home and abroad, it was thought a necessarie duetie for th [...] posteritie to prouide for a perpetual seed & supplie of Catholikes, namely of the Clergie. Thirdly their purpose was, to draw vnto this College the best wits out of England, that were either Catholikely bent, or desirous of more exact educatiō than is in these daies in either of the vniuersities (where through the delicacie of that sect, there is no Art holy or prophane throughly studied, & some not touched at al) or that had scruple of cōsciēce to take the oth of the Queenes supremacie in causes ecclesiastical, or that misliked to be forced to the Ministerie, as the vse is in diuers Colleges: a calling contemptible euen in their own conceipt, & very damnable in the iudgement of others, or that were dout­ful whether of the two religions were true, which hath driuē diuers ouer to their great satisfaction, & admiration of the euidence of our part. These were the chiefe re­spects that led his holines to found our two Seminaries, the fruits wherof we haue seene to our great comfort.

And this I see, you keep your old wont. You affirme what you list vpon your own credite; & disdaining your aduersaries as prophane & vnlearned, you cōmend your selues for the onely minions of the world: set this aside, and what one thing is there in your third chapter worth the [Page 109] speaking to.

You mislike that Seminaries were appointed for English Students beyond the seas. We now proue the first erection of them to be needful & health­full for this realme.

Sir, your liege Ladie misliked and had good cause so to doe, that her subiects were [...]locked from her & encouraged against her by your practises & promises, & that her open and sworne enemie kept them in co­uerts, which you cal Seminaries, and trayned them vp at his charges to bee fit instruments for his secret deuises and purposes. Of this you speake not a word, but arrogantly defacing both Uniuersities with loosenes of life & slackenes of studie, you come in with your exact education, & holy conuersation, as if the re­port of your owne vertues from your owne mouthes were enough to auoyd and preuent al obiections.

That answere might serue, where nothing was pro­ued, but only surmised against vs.

You forget that a Prince did obiect it, to whom you were bound with all reuerence and duetie to make your ful and sufficient answere.

So haue we done.

Mary that you haue in deede.

The things misliked were these.What things were misliked in the Semi­naries. First, that by your meanes yong boyes were prouoked and allured to forsake their parents, vnstable wittes their Studies, subiects their Prince without asking leaue, no tyrannie nor torment inflicted or offered to cause them to flie. Next, that your seminaries, as well for their direc­tion as prouision, do wholy depend on his pleasure & fauour, that hath euer since the beginning professed & shewed himselfe a mortal enemie to your soueraigne; deposing her Person, inuading her land, and pulling her subiects from her obe­dience. Thirdly, that your teachers & learners in either of your colleges, do not only nourish this trayterous position in their own brests, that her highnesse nei­ther is, nor ought to bee taken for lawfull Queene of England longer than the Pope shall permit: but also labour to poyson her people with that diuelish per­swasion, vnder colour of religion. These points your Patrone cunningly skip­peth, and falleth to the cōmending and preferring the maners, orders, & vertues of your two Colleges before our two vniuersities, which comparison is neither seemely to be published, nor easie to be credited.

Concerning his holinesse intentions, Apolog. cap. 3. if they be any other in the institution & en­tertainement of those Seminaries, than ours are, they by vnknowen to vs, none being so presumptuous to search further into his secrets than standeth with his good pleasure & wisedome to vtter of himselfe, nor any hauing iust cause to deeme worse or otherwise of his doings, than is agreeable to his high calling, approued good affection to our Country, his great vertue, and the euidence of the thing.

The Iesuites know not the Popes inten­tion, and yet they take part with him a­gainst their Prince.In trueth we seeke for your founders intentions, not for yours: and therefore this onely sentence in all your third chapter maketh toward the matter in question, which you conclude with an ignoramus, protesting his holines intentions to be vnknowen to you.

Uerily so are they.

You may winke at noone dayes & say you see nothing: yet this you know, that subiects should not leaue their prince vpon euery dislike and flee the Country, much lesse linke and ioyne themselues with the Princes foes: least of all take the crowne from the Princes head, at the Popes becke. His secretes [Page 110] though you search not, these doings you may soone discerne.

We be farre from any such dealings.

As farre as water from the Tems.

Do none flee the realme to come to your Seminaries?

They may flee that be persecuted.

Doth the prince persecute children in Grammer schooles?

Apol. Cap. 3. Iesuits draw­ers of childrē from their Parents, and subiects from their Prince. Apolog. Cap. 3.That in cōscience were too much.

Yet you confesse, Grammer scholers from al parts of the realme haue yeelded you many youthes, & many (gentlemens sonnes specially) aduenture ouer to you without their parents consent, and sometimes much a­gainst their wils. And think you this lawful to entice children from their parents, & subiects frō their Prince, to be infected by you before they can iudge of you?

We do not entice them to come, but instruct them when they come.

Re­member you not, your third purpose was to draw into these Colleges the best wittes out of England? So that your owne wordes conuince you to be drawers, which is all one with enticers of boyes from their schooles, of childrē from their parents, and this I winne, you can hardly defend to be Catholike. Besides, your purpose was to draw (for this is your terme) those that were desirous of exact education, Apolog. Cap. 3. or had scru­ple of conscience to take the oth of the Queenes supremacie, or that misliked to be forced to the ministerie, or that were doubtful whether of the two religions were true. So that your Seminaries be not only receits for such as be lightly touched by the lawes of this Realme, but harbours for all that bee desirous, scrupulous, dislykers or doubters: that is in effect, baits for all mens appetites, & marts for all mens pur­poses, that be any way greeued with the State, or affect nouelties.

What is it to be the slaues of men if this be not? Campion in his 2. article.Next that you be fedde and clothed at the Popes expences, and in such thral­dome to the Popes agent, your superiour as you call him, that you will and must accept his voice, as a warrant from heauen and an oracle of Christ, since you proclaime it, we need not proue it. And this is to be right of the Popes fold and familie, whose hatred and hostilitie to the Prince and this Realme how deadly and daily it hath been and is, England, Ireland, yea Rome it selfe can witnes; and if you would dissemble neuer so deeply, you neither are nor can be ignorant.

Campion & Parsons did aske leaue of the Pope to agnise her maiestie for lawful Queene, vntil the Bul might be put in exe­cution: Or if these be not suffici­ent, the late defence will serue for all. In his 40. motiue.Lastly what you thinke and teach of her Maiesties right to the Crowne since Pius the fift gaue foorth his Bull to depriue her of the same, if Sanders monar­chie, Bristoes motiues, Campions & Parsons dispensation did not fully conuince, the answere of your fellowes vpon their examinacions & at their araignements, your refusal to speake when you be required, and ambiguous maner of speaking when you be therto pressed, do plainely shew you that you thinke that which you dare not vtter, & teach more than you would haue known. Or if that which is past be not proofe enough, for your better discharge let vs haue your answere at this present: Is her Maistie right and lawfull Queene of this Realme notwithstan­ding the Pope did or doe depose her?

You now digresse from our purpose.

Then belike obedience to y^e magistrate doth not stand with your purpose.

Your question is very dangerous.

No danger at all if you be good subiects.

As good subiects as you for your liues.

And, as Bristowe saith, better; saue that crakes be common with Iesuites. But this is a shrewd signe of an ill subiect, to refuse to confesse your rightfull Prince.

Wee [Page 111] be not Iudges betweene the Pope and the Queene.

So said Campion at the kings bench, but til you make vs some directer answere, geue vs leaue to take your seminaries, if not for schooles of treason, yet at least for nourceries of disobedience. Your opinion in this point if it be good, why doe you not confesse it? If it be nought, why doe you not reuoke it? Your Apologie should haue either defied it as no part of your meaning,And that your defence of English Catholikes expressely doth. or els defended it as honest and lawfull. You doe neither in this place; but flattering the Pope you beleeue it, and fearing the Prince you conceale it. And least your dissembling should be suspected, you fill this chapter with needlesse vagaries, from your selues to your aduersaries, from doctrine to manners, from Englande to Scotland, auouching what you list, defa­ming whom you can, presuming al that you dreame to be true without care, with­out cause; without shame, without sense.

You raile Theophilus. Apol. Cap. 3.

And what doe you Philander; when you say, The fruites of the Protestants doctrine, their prophane life and manners, their restlesse contentions, debates, and dissentions among themselues, their scandals mo in those fewe dayes of their felicitie, than was giuen of the true Clergie in a thousand yeres before, though al the aduersaries slaunderous reports of them were Gospel, as many of them bee more false than Esops Fables. Apolo. chap. 3. And againe of Scotland you say, The Caluinists hor­rible infamous murdering of his highnesse father, and more than barbarous vilany and misuse of his deerest mother whiles shee was among them, & the sundry detestable trea­sons cōtriued against his Roial person when he was yet in his mothers womb, as oftē since, as wel otherwise by wonted treacheries, as by infecting his tender age both with their damnable heresie, and with ill affection towards his deerest parents. What cal you this, if it bee not railing? What libell could be more lewde and infamous than this? Happie men are you that may thus disdaine, reproch, belie and reuile others and not be counted railers.

Touching our liues, we will say litle, we referre the iudgement therof to such as be sober; neither doe we denie, but that among so great a number as this realm yeeldeth, it is easie to finde some that serue not God but their bellies, and seeke not Christ but theire owne. And yet I see no cause why you should ouerlash so much in excusing your selues and accusing others, as if our scandals (so it plea­seth you to speake) were mo in these fewe daies, Experiments of Popes and their clergie out of the re­ports of their owne friends. than yours in a thousand yeres before. For if those things be true, which not our fauorers, but your owne fellowes haue reported & lamented in no worse than the fountaines of your faith, and heads of your Church; I wil not say the refues of England, but euen the Priests of Baal and Bacchus, were Saints in comparison of so lewd and into­lerable monsters.

Stephanus the sixt,Martin. Polo. in an. 898.907. Platina in Ste­pha. 6. & Ser­gio 3. Luitpr and▪ Ti­cinensis li 6. ca. 6. & 7. and Sergius the third pulled Formosus their predecessor out of his graue, the one cutting off his fingers, the other his head, and cast his carkas into Tybris. Iohn the twelfth gaue orders in a stable amongst his hor­ses, abused his fathers concubine, made his pallace a stues, put out his Ghost­ly fathers eyes, gelded one of his Cardinals, ranne about in armes to set how­ses on fiar, drank to the diuel, and at dise called for help of Iupiter and Venus.

[Page 112] Martin. Polon. in anno 986. Platina in Bonifacio 7. Platina in Syluestro 2. Boniface the seuenth getting the Popedom by il meanes, robbed Saint Pe­ters church of al the Iewels & pretious things he could find, & ranne his waies; & returning not long after, caught one of his Cardinals & put out his eies.

Syluester the seconde, leauing his Monasterie, betooke himselfe wholly to the diuel, by whose help he gate to be Pope; on this condition, that after his death he should be the diuels both bodie and soule. Benedict the ninth sold his Popedome to Gregorie the sixt, Platina in Benedicto 9. and was therefore worthily blamed of all men, and by Gods iudgement condemned. For it is certaine that after his death he appeared in an ougly shape, Martin. Polon. in anno 1042. (with the head and taile of an asse, & the body of a beare) and being asked what that horrible sight ment, because, saith he, whiles I was Pope, I liued like a beast, without law, without reason, defiling the Chaire of Peter with al kind of lewdnes.

Beno Cardinalis de vita & ge­stis Hildebrād.Of Gregorie the seuenth and his adherents Beno y^e cardinal writeth thus: Let these hypocrites hold their peace, that haue disgraced & almost drouned the name of blessed Peter, by cloking the flames of their malice, vnder a colour of Catholicisme & pretēce of iustice. Let these false prophets be astonished that are curteous in shew, scorpiōs in sting, wolues vnder lambs skinnes, killing the bodies & deuouring the soules of men with the sword of their mouth, whose religion sauoureth nothing but of traiterousnes and couetousnes, entring the houses of widowes, they lead women captiues that bee loden with sinnes; and by reason of our troublesome times giue eare to spirits of error and do­ctrines of diuels, which Hildebrand their captain learned of his maisters Bene­dict the ninth, and Gregorie the sixt.

Abbas vrsper­gensis in anno 1228. Gregorie y^e ninth, as Vrspergensis cōplaineth, taking occasion by the Empe­rours absence (that was fighting against the Turke,) sent a great armie into A­pulia, and inuaded & subdued the Emperours dominions being thē in the ser­uice of Christ; a fact most hainous: and did his best both in Apulia and Lum­bardie to hinder such as were going that viage from passing the Sea (seeking thereby to betray the Christian Emperour & his armie to the Turke: Ibidem.) Yea the men of Verona & Millan would suffer none to passe by their coasts, spoyling the very souldiers that were sent to fight against the Turke, and that by the cōmandement of the Pope as they affirmed: which alas is horrible to be spo­ken. Who rightly considering, wil not lament and detest these things, as por­tending and foreshewing the ruine of the Church?

Math. Paris in anno 1213. Mathewe Paris giueth Innocentius the 3. this commendation. King Iohn, saith he, knew and by often experience had tried, that the Pope aboue al mor­tal men was ambitious and proude, an vnsatiable thirster after money, and easie to be drawen and induced to all wickednes by gifts or promises.

Sixtus the fourth, made his playfelow Cardinal, who was wont to weare cloth of gold at home in his house, Baptist. fulgo. lib. 9. Agrippa de Le­ [...]inio & orat. ad Lou [...]nienses. to ease nature in stooles of siluer, and to deck his harlot Tiresia with shoes couered with pearle: as Agrippa reporteth, he built a sumpteous stewes in Rome, appointing it to be both masculine and feminine, and making a gaine of that beastly trade: As Vuesselus Gronnigensis sayth, he [Page 113] gaue the whole familie of the Cardinal of S. Luce, Vuesselu [...] Grō ­nigensis tract. de Indulgen [...]ijs. free leaue in Iune, Iulie, & August, to vse that which nature abhorreth, & God in Sodome reuenged with fire and brimstone. One of your owne side perceiuing the lothsomnes of his life, maketh the diuel giue him this entertaynment in hell:

But thou, thou bauld pate, which hast so licentiously defiled thy self with women, didst thou thinke thy secrete sinnes by reason of thy myter shoulde here goe vnpunished? Receiue the rewarde of thy filthie pastimes, so hath thine outragious lust to all lewdnes, and voyde of all goodnes, deserued.

It is too shameful that Iohannes Iouianus Pontanus writeth of Lucretia the daughter of Alexander the sixt. Pontan. tumu­lorum lib. 2. in tumulo Lu­cretiae Alexan. 6. filiae.

Here lyeth Lucretia in name, in deede a shamelesse whore; the daughter of [Pope] Alexander, her fathers & brothers harlot. The fact so horrible, that it were not credible,Acti Sannazar. epigram. lib. 1. & 2. if others did not confirme the same.

I will trouble chast eares no longer with this vnsauory repetition. These disorders of Popes if you weigh them well be more than scandalous, & giue you smal cause to vaunt of your vertues.

These be the things that we told you, were more false than Esops fables.

It were reason you shoulde proue them false, before you reiect them as fables: men of your owne sect and side laying thē down for truths in their writings, you may not now take vpō you to pronounce them fables, lest your credite be called in question, & your selues reputed to bee worse than lyars. These things, be they true, bee they false, wee report them as we find them in your owne stories; not your aduersaries but your welwillers were the first autors of them. And vnlesse wee see some surer ground than your bare deniall, we may better charge you with open flatterie, than you may them w^t wilful forgerie.

The number is not great though y^• matters were true.

The rest of their outrages if I would recken; namely their schismes, cō ­tentions & tumults for the Popedom, their ambition, presumption, oppression; briberie, periurie, tyrannie; pride, craft, hypocrisie; to conclude their garboyles, battailes and bloodshed; an whole volume would not suffice.

And where you make your Clergie so free from scandals, heare what men of former times and of your owne side haue spoken and written of your Bishops, Priests, Monkes and others. Bernard of his age.Bernard. supra Cant. serm. 33. The Iesuites promise high experiments of their Ro­mane institu­tion; the pat­ternes where­of if any man will see, let him [...]ead these com­plaints of their owne fellowes. Behold, saith he, these times very much defiled with the worke that walketh in darknes. Wo bee to this generation because of the leauen of Pharisees, which is hypocrisie; If it may be called hypocrisie, which is now so rife, that it can not; and so shamelesse, that it seeketh not to bee kept secrete. A rotten contagion creepeth at this day through the whole body of the Church, the wyder the desperater; the [Page 114] more inward, the more deadly. All friends, & al enemies: al familiar; & none peacemakers; they be the ministers of Christ, & serue Antichrist. Thēce is it, as thou maist dayly see, that they be trimmed like whoores, attired like plai­ers, serued like Princes. Thence is it, that they wear gold in their bridles, sa­dles & spurs; yea their spurs shine brighter, than the Altars: thence are their bankets & drunkennes; thence their musike & instrumēts; thence their wine presses running ouer, & stoarehouses stuffed with all varietie; thence their barrels of oyntments to paint thēselues; thence their bags & bugets full. For these things are they, & seek they to be rulers of churches, Deanes, Archdea­cons, Bishops, Archbishops. The wound of the Church is inward & incura­ble. Rest frō infidels, rest frō heretikes, but not from children. They haue des­pised & defiled [her] with their filthie life, with their filthie gain, with their filthie trade. Sermo. ad Cle­rum in concil. Rh [...]mensi con­gregatum inter opera Bernardi. Ye be called Pastors, when in deed ye be spoylers, and woulde God the milke & fleese did suffice ye, ye thirst for blood. The Archpriest vi­siteth his charge to fil his purse; he betraieth innocent blood, he selleth mur­ders, adultries, incests, fornications, [...]acrileges, periuries, & filleth his pouch to the brim. And as for the ornament of chastitie, how keep they that, which being deliuered into a reprobate sense, do that which is not fit? It is a shame to name those things, which the bishops do in secrete. But why should I be ashamed to speak that, which they are not ashamed to do? Yea the Apostle is not ashamed to write, mē vpon mē work filthines, receiuing the reward of their error. With the patrimony of the crosse of Christ you feede whores in your chambers, Idem sermo. ad Pastores in Synodo con­gregatos. you fat your flesh, you furnish your horses with pectorals & headstals of golde. For this you claw Princes and Powers of darkenes, both men and diuels. Hee that list to reade more of your scandals, may in that place whence this is taken, haue enough.

Albert. in Ioh. Cap. 10. Albertus Magnus of his time giueth this testimonie: Those which now rule in the Church, be for the most part theeues & murderers, rather oppressors than feeders, rather spoilers than tutors, rather killers than keepers, rather peruerters than teachers, rather seducers than leaders. These be the messen­gers of Antichrist, and vnderminers of the flocke of Christ.

Opusculi tri­partiti parte 3. Cap. 7. reperi­tur in tomo conciliorum 2.The tripartite worke that standeth next to the Councel of Lateran vnder In­nocentius the 3. long since complained of your Clergie in this sort: So great is the notorious vncleannes of lecherie in many partes of the worlde, not in clerks only, but in Priests also, & that (which is horrible to heare) in the pre­lates thēselues. Again, they spend the goods of the Church so badly, in vani­ties, superfluities, setting vp & aduancing their kinsmen, and in many other riots & sinnes; yea there is such a number, & those no smale ones, that do no good in the church, but spend their daies in pleasures by reasō of the wealth of the church, that it is much to be feared, least God for these & other hay­nous offences [of the clergie] passing great, very many, & now inueterate; do ouerthrowe, or cause the ecclesiastical state to bee ouerthrowen, as it came to passe in the Iewes first exalted by God, and after destroyed for euer.

Holcot 20. yeres since. The Priests of our age, sayth he, be like the Priestes [Page 115] of Baal: Holcot in lib. Sapientiae lectio. 182. Platina in vi­ta Marcellini. they are wicked Angels: they resemble the Priestes of Dagon: they are Priestes of Priapus and Angels of hell.

And lest you should dreame that nearer our time your Clergie began to bee better reformed, Platina saith, What shall we thinke will become of our age, wherein our vices are growen to that heighth, that they skant haue left vs place with God for mercie? How great the couetousnes of priests is, & espe­cially of the rulers amōg thē, how great their lecherie of al sorts, how great their ambition & pompe, how great their pride & slouth, howe grosse their ignorance both of thēselues & of christian doctrine, how smal their deuotiō, & that rather fained than true, how corrupt their maners, I neede not speak.

Frier Mantuan not long after him,Mantua. Calae­mitatum lib. 3. in that point agreeth with him.

The house of Peter defiled with excessiue riote is quite decayed; I reueale here no secrets, neither speak I things vnknown: I may vtter that which is in euery mans mouth. Cities & Countries talke of it, & the very bruite thereof scatered lōg since ouer al Europe hath quēched al care of vertue. The church lands are giuen to cōmon Iesters: the sacred altar allotted to wantons: the temples of saints to boyes prouided for filthie lust. Why wonder wee to see wealth flow, and houses that were fallen to be stately built? We sell temples, Priests, Altars, sacrifices, garlands, fier, frankensense, prayers, wee sell heauen and God himselfe. Of your Priests he sayth,Ibidem.

Hateful to heauen, & lothsome with vncleane lust, alas in vaine attempt they sacred rites with incestuous hands. They rather kindle and prouoke God, than appease him: neuer hope for help as long as such pray for you: giue the Churches to new ministers, and chase this sacriligious generation from the diuine places; neither let their haynous sinnes grow to a custome. By him wee may learne what fruits to looke for of your Romish Seminarie.Mantuan. ec [...]oga 5.

Alas at Rome now nothing but money doth raign, vertue is quite banished: the whole Citie is a stewes. Rome why art thou so often mad? why delightest thou in blood? Why with weake hands dost thou assay so mightie weapons? If peace be abroad, thou makest war at home; neither can thy fierce pride a­way with rest. Thou settest brother against brother, father against sonne, thou venterest on al mischief & hatchest al vilany: thou regardest neither right nor law: thou beguilest both God & man: thou fea [...]est neither heauen nor hell.

Auentinus annalium Bolo­rum lib. 6. praefat. Auentinus a man likewise of your side and not long since aliue complaineth not without cause. Since [the Bishop of Rome] hath so great power, why doth he not vse it? since the haruest is so great, why doth hee not reape? why doth he not feed when he seeth so many sheepe die for hunger? Why doth he set ouer the flocke, goates, wolues, libidinous, adulterous persons, abusers of vir­gins and Nunnes, cookes, Mulettors, theeues, banckers, vsurers drones, hun­ters after gayne, luxurious, perfidious, forsworne, ignorant asses? I speake not by hearesay; I write that I see with these eyes. Why doth he cōmit sheepe to wolues? why doth he suffer his flocke to be in subiection to most perniti­ous hypocrites, prouiding only for their owne bellies? nay why doth hee let boyes & wantons rule his lambes? I am ashamed to say what manner of Bi­shops we haue. With the reuenues of the poore they feede houndes, horses; I need not say whores; they quaffe, they make loue, & flee all learning as in­fection. Such is the miserie of these times, we may not speak that we thinke, nor thinke that we speake. As for the sheepe committed to their charge; to sheere them, strip them, and kill them, as euery man list, vnder a pretence of deuotion, is now an auncient custome.

If one witnes be not sufficient, you shal haue more, & those of your not our re­ligion, to confesse the same. Palingenius an Italian suppliant to the Church of Rome describeth at large the monsterous corruption of your Romane Clergie.Marcel. Palin. Zodiaci vitae lib. 5. in Leone.

Let no Frier, Monke or any Priest come within thy dores. Take heede of them; no greater mischiefe. These are the dregges of men, the fountaines of follie, the sinckes of sinne, wolues vnder lambes skinnes, s [...]ruing God for re­ward, not deuotion; deceiuing the simple with a false shewe of honestie; and vnder the shadow of religion hyding a thousand vnlawfull actes, a thousand haynous offences: committers of rapes, fornicators, abusers of boyes, slaues of gluttonie and luxurie, they sel heauenly things. These imposters & craftie foxes chase farre from thee. The Priests and Monkes that shoulde bee chast, spend night and day either openly with whoores or closely with boyes, ma­trones and maydes. Some spare neither blood, nor beast. O shame! Can the Church endure such hogs giuen only to feed their bellies, satisfie their lusts, and take their ease?

Cornelius one of the bishops that were present at your late councel of Trent in the midst of your assemblie doth acknowlege that to be true which Auentinus and Palingenius before complayned of.Oratio Cornelij Epi. Bitonti. 3. Dominica ad­uent. in concil. Triden habit [...]. With what monsters of filthines, saith he, with what canel of vncleannes, with what pestiferous contagion are not both people and priests defiled and corrupted in the holy church of God? I make your selues Iudges, and beginne at the sanctuarie of God; if there were any shamefastnes, any chastitie, any hope or helpe of honest conuersation left: if there were not lust vnbridled and vntamed, singular boldnes, and in­credible wickednes. For those two bloodsuckers, which alwayes crie bring, bring; one the mother, the other the nource of all euill; I meane couetousnes & ambition, either a secrete and subtile mischiefe, poyson, plague, and mon­ster of the worlde (whiles learning and vertue are despised, and in their pla­ces ignorance & vice highly aduanced by those whom we should take for quicke and liuing lawes) haue brought to passe that edification is changed to destruction, examples to offences, custome to corruption, regard of lawes to contempt thereof, Experiments confessed in the late Counc [...]l of Trent. seueritie to slacknes, mercie to impunitie, pietie to hy­pocrisie, preaching to contention, solemne dayes to filthie Mar [...]es, and that which is most vnhappie, the sauour of life to the sauour of death. Would god they were not fallen with one consent from religion to superstition, from [Page 118] faith to infidelitie, from Christ to Antichrist, yea from God to Epicurisme, saying with their wicked hearts and shamelesse faces, there is no God. The Turkes proude with the victories, and rich with the spoyles that they haue gotten frō Christiās; grew not by their own strength, but by our corrupt ma­ners; they were not so much enemies, as scourges from God; their weapons assaulted vs, but our sinnes preuailed against vs; they shewed their fiercenes, we suffred for our iniquities. And would God we alone had suffered, & that the sacred & admirable name of Christ Iesu had not bin a iest & fable amōg the faithlesse Iewes and Gentiles by reason of vs, whose slouthfulnes & wic­kednes is bruted ouer all the world with a most shamefull report.

You neede not reproch vs so bitterly, your selues bee not free from all faults.

I neuer said we were. I know these be the later times, when ini­quitie shall abound, Mat. 24. 2. Tim. 3. and the charitie of many waxe cold, yea when men shall be louers of themselues, couetous, boasters, proud, cursed speakers, vngrate­full, vnholy, vnkinde, vnfaithfull slaunderers, intemperate, fierce, headie, high minded, preferring their pleasures before God, as the holy Ghost fore­told vs they should. Of this soyle many no doubt on either side, yours and ours, haue a tast at this day: but in vnshamefastnes you passe all others; that the wide world crying shame on the manifold corruption of your clergie & that Citie, you only step forth w^tout any blushing to denie that which your nearest friends haue confessed,Apolo. chap. 2. & with insolēt words to promise this land high experimēts & innumera­ble examples of vertue & deuotion, as if that sinke of sin were lately become a foū ­taine of grace, or y^e famous whore of Babilō newly changed into chast Ierusalē.

The main drift of their Apologie was to flatter the Pope, to magnifie thē ­selues, and to dissemble their wicked­nes against the Prince with colou­rable preten­ces and spea­ches, which they haue ful­ly performed.But you must bee borne with; your purpose was to lift & extoll Gregorie the 13. aboue the skies, thereby to kindle his loue and deuotion towards your Col­leges, as very zealous for his highnes & holines, which you could not wel do but by deiecting and disgracing those that vtterly refused him, as lewd & light per­sons. And this maketh you so falsly without al truth, so boldly without al shame, so desperately without all feare to belie both England & Scotland, as if our dis­orders in twentie yeres were mo than yours in a thousand: and theApol. Cap. 3. The Iesuites haue a com­mission to be­ly whom they list without controlemēt. treacheries, treasons, murders, & vilanies done in Scotland, were y^e protestants doings: which virulent & impudent reproches vttered against two Christian Common weales without any maner or colour of truth, shew what liquor boyleth in your hearts, and what humour raigneth in your heades.

And what salt seasoneth your mouth when you raile at Rome so fast as you do?

If I report any thing of Rome which your own fellowes doe not witnes, let it go for a slander: but what proofe bring you, that in Scotlande the professors of the Gospell murdered the kinges father, or sought to destroy their Prince when he was yet in his mothers wombe?

Sure it is, the kings fa­ther was horribly murdered amongst them.

Can you tel by whom?

I can not tel: but he lost his life.

No doubt of that, but who did the deed?

It was secretly done in the night season, we know not by whom; of likely­hood by enemies.

It could be no friendship to murder him in his bed: ne­uer [Page 119] heard you,Mat. 10. A mans enemies shalbe they of his owne houshold? But since you know not the doer, is it not mere malice in you to charge your enemies, and not his with it; especially those, that did hazard their liues to reuenge his death?

A faire reuenge, to displace their Queene for other mens faults.

If y^• Nobles of Scotland did any thing against their Queen, which the lawes of that land did not warrant, wee defend them not: you were best obiect it to them, they can answere for themselues. Yet are you not ignorāt whom they deepely charge with the death of that Earle: but I wil not meddle with other mens matters: I returne to this land,Apolog. Cap. 3. where you say you haue wrought great alteration of mindes throughout the whole Realme, & wonderfull increase of courage in all sortes, not only to thinke well in heart, but openly and boldly to prosesse their faith and religion, and re­fuse all actes contrarie to the same.

And this haue we done only by the power of priesthood in spiritual, Apolog. Cap. 3. silent and peaceable maner, & not with riots, tumults or warlike concourse: we haue done it as the Apostles & other holy mē did in the primatiue church, by trauels, watchings, fastings, perils at the Portes, perils in the Sea, perils on the Land, perils of open enemies, perils of false brethrē, feares of the laws, feares of hurting our frinds, feares for scandalising the weake: by contumelies, disgraces, pouerties, prisonmēts, fetters, dungeons, racks, deaths. And this the omnipotent God, because it is his owne worke, enterprised by order and au­thoritie of his chiefe Minister in earth, hath prospered exceedingly: though it seemed at the beginning a thing hard or impossible, you hauing so many yeres, the lawes, the sword, the pulpits, and al humane helps for you.

Neuer vaunt of your victories,An ignorant boy with a whispering report mig soone worke this conuersion. vnlesse they were greater. Papists that before dissembled are now by your meanes encouraged to professe your religion against a day: this was no such conquest. The priuie report of a forraine power to be landed in this realme was enough to turne them al. For they which twen­tie yeres together perished their cōsciences to saue their goods, would they now rather hazard their lands & life, which you threatned; & hinder that action, which they long desired; than shew themselues? The rest of your conuerts be fearefull women,Such tea­chers such conuerts. hungrie craftesmen, idle prentices, seelie wenches, and peeuish boyes, for the most part voyd of all reason & sense, desirous of nouelties by nature, and soone enticed to any thing: & al the religion you haue taught them, is to name the catholik church as parats, & to pretend their cōsciēces when they lacke al vnder­stāding of god & godlines. Such in some places for want of good order, haue bin of late inueigled by you, to mislike those with whō they liue, & to fansie that they neuer saw: which was no masterie, cōsidering y^e mildenes of our discipline, y^e ma­ner of your whispering, & y^e rudenes of those simple soules whom you peruerted.

We did nothing but in spiritual, silent & peaceable maner, as the Apostles & other holy men did in the primatiue Church.

We know you can cōmend your selues: but a man may soone discerne y^e fierbrands of Rome, from the disci­ples of Christ. Throckmortōs kalēder was y^e chiefest end of your running ouer, which was to soūd,See Throck­mortons cō ­fession. whether your pretēded catholiks wold not back any such force as should be sent, to inuade the land. This no Apostle nor any other holy [Page 120] man in the primatiue Church did: they neuer made religion a cloake for rebel­lion.

God is our witnes we knew no such thing when we were sent ouer.

But they which sent you, knew what they did.

That was counsell to vs: [...] own [...] they [...] superior [...] voice [...] oracle [...] heauen [...] them. we are bound to obey our superiour that sent vs.

To rebell against your Prince, and to procure others to doe the like, if the Pope commaund you?

We say not so.

But you must doe so.

Can you proue that?

We neede no plainer proofe than your silence. For how say you, will you take her maiestie for lawful and rightful Queene of this Realme, notwithstan­ding the Pope depriue her?

You still aske mee that question.

Wee must still aske it till you answere it. One woorde of your mouth woulde suffice vs and discharge you from all suspition: which you would neuer refraine if it were not against you.

Remoue the daunger of your lawes, and I will quickly tell you what I think.

That speach is enough to bewray your affection. Our Lawes be not dangerous vnlesse you say the Pope may take the crowne from the Princes head,These two [...] they [...]. & licence her subiects to rebell against her, which is the treason we charge you with.

Is that so trayterous a position that Popes may depose Princes?

That point you should either freely defend or flatly deny. By that we shall see what the bent and drift was of your late perswading & reconciling so ma­ny to the Church of Rome. For if this be your doctrine, that such as wil be Ca­tholikes must obey the Pope deposing the prince, then is it euident, that you sow religion, but intend to reape treason; and make your first entrance with prea­ching, that afterward you may prepare the people to rebelling. [...]

This is your false surmise, not our meaning.

Then answere mee, What if the Pope publish a Bull to depriue the Queene, which part will you teach the peo­ple to followe? The Popes or the Queenes?

We will tell you that, when the Pope doth attempt it.

Wel sayde Philander, you play sure to mu­scer no men till your captaine bee readie, least you loose your labour as the Re­bels of the North did. Is this the faith and allegeance your Soueraigne Ladie shall looke for at your handes, when strangers inuade, then to resolue which side you will take? Go to masters; if this be subiection, I maruaile what is rebelliō.

His holinesse doth the like things, for almost euery other Nation in distresse, & none so ill, [...] so suspitious, or so vngrateful as to mistrust his benefites to be their destructi­on, not the Germanes, not the Hungarians, not the Greekes, not any other Prouinces, for al which his holines hath erected Colleges euen as for our Countrie, of which though all take not so much good as they might doe, yet none feare hurt nor make lawes against his holy and charitable actions but we.

[...]Offer that wrong to other Princes euen of your owne religion, which your h [...]ly father hath done to her maiestie, and see which of them will doubt to make sharper and sorer lawes against you than her highnes hath yet made. Pro­nounce them no Princes, inuade their lands, conuert hostilities abroade and at [...]ne to thrust them from their thrones, and then tell vs howe they will reward you. These wicked and diuelish attempts against your Soueraigne you cal [Page 121] holy and charitable actions, and such is your madnesse, that you blame the State for preuenting and repressing this haynous iniurie with wholsom lawes.

Call you that preuenting of iniurie to put innocēts to death?The Iesuites wil [...]e inno­cents though they teach it to be lawfull for subiectes to resist and murther their Princes. The dispensa­tion of Cam­pion and Fa [...] ­io [...]s hath those expresse wordes.

You refuse to confesse that her Highnesse is rightfull Queene of this Realme, and yet would be counted innocentes?

You say not well. We confesse her Ma­iestie to be true Queene of this Realm.

And ought to be so taken of al her Subiectes, though the Pope depose her?

Why doe you pose vs with the Popes authoritie? That which wee spake was plaine enough.

Not so. You be licenced from Rome to agnise her Grace for true Queene of Englande for a time, vntill the Bull of Pius the 5. may be put in publike execution, that is, vntill shee may by force of armes be violently driuen from the Crowne.

Is it not strange that you report these thinges of vs, and can not proue them?

Is it not stranger that you know these thinges to be true, and yet denie them?

I protest for my part, I know them not.

Wee will reason farther thereof in an other place. I hasten now to your fourth chapter.

Will you leaue S. Hierom vnanswered?

This whole chap­ter hath neither Scripture nor Father with you, nor against vs, but onely one poore allegation, and therefore we may not skip that in any case; but what saith S. Hierom? Epist. 8. ad De­me [...]riadem.

This one thing I thinke good of charitable pietie and af­fection to forewarn thee, that thou hold fast the faith of holie Innocentius who is successour and sonne of the Apostolike chaire, and of the forenamed Anastasius, & that thou receiue not a strange doctrine, though thou seeme to thy selfe neuer so wise and subtile.

This proueth that Innocentius and Anastasius in the dayes of S. Hierom held the true Christian faith; & that the Romanes, (for Demetriades, to whom S. Hierom gaue this counsell, dwelt in Rome) should rather follow the Bishop of their owne Citie teaching sound and Apostolike doctrine, than embrace strange errors vpon presumptiō of wit: What doth this helpe you?

Gregory the 13. that lately liued was their successor & sonne in Seat & beliefe.

Doth S. Hierom say so?

Nay we say so.

Proue that, and set vp your Masse.

In Seat you graunt.

Skant enough.

What not in Seat?

No not in Seat.

Why so?

First, Atheists, heretikes, sorcerers, and women haue been Popes, and that interrupteth your succession.Their succes­sion interrup­ted. Next, the plentie of Popes during the two and twentie schismes in the Church of Rome, whereof the last dured 40. yeares, and was so doubtfull, that the best learned and most religious of your side, could not tell which to cleaue to. I say, this pluralitie of Popes at one time confoundeth your reckoning. Thirdly, discontinuance shaketh your seat in peeces; as when Peters chaire was emptie threeskore and fourteene yeares, sixe Popes sitting one after an other, not at Rome but in Auinion in Fraunce. Last of all, the most part of your Popes for these 600. yeares entred not by law­full and Canonicall election, neither expected the consent of the Romane Prince and people, as they should and were wont to do; but by violence, seditiō, [Page 122] corruption and bribery inuaded the Seat of Peter. Which fault was so commō, that your best friendes coulde not choose, but finde it. The Popedome, sayth Platina, Platina in Syl­uestro 3. was come to that passe, (500. yeares agoe) that he which could do most with ambition and briberie, he only obtained the Papal dignitie, good men oppressed and reiected: which manner would God our times had not kept: but this is nothing; we shall see worse, if God preuent it not. In the daies of Damasus the 2. hee saith, This fashion was nowe so ri [...]e, that euery ambitious Marchant might catch vppe Peters seat. Idem in Dama­so 2. Idem in Bene­dicto 4. And an hundred yeares before that in the time of Benedict the fourth, As soone as the Church, saith he, was indued with riches, and waxed lasciuious; the worshippers of God turning from seueritie to wantonnesse; the great impunity of sinne, no Prince then repressing the lewdnesse of men, bred vs these monsters and mischiefs, who by corruption & ambition rather inuaded than possessed the most holy Seat of Peter. Idē in Ioan. 10. And for a conclusion he saith, The Popes were cleane depar­ted from Peters steps.

These be trifles, they barre not succession.

They be iust and true exceptions, but for this present I say with S. Hierom, They bee not the sonnes of the Saints, Distinct. 40. c. Non est facile. that occupie their places, but that exercise their works. If Gregorie the 13. taught Peters faith, let him be Peters successor: if he did set forth any other doctrine, he succeeded S. Peter at Rome, no more than the Turke doth S. Iames at Ierusalem, or the Scribes & Pharisees did Moses, in whose chaire they sate, when they crucified the Sonne of God. But we spend time, which might bee better imployed.

Then goe to the fourth chapter which I looked for all this while, that the sight of our proofes and sound of our places, which here we bring against the Princes supremacie, might euen dis­credite and confounde your newe doctrine.

The impertinent vagaries and plausible colours of your Apologie doe but hinder the seriousnesse of the matter, & fulnesse of the proofe that in this case were requisite; since therfore we be come to the maine foundation of al your doinges, omit your florishing, and fall to a stricter and exacter kinde of reasoning.

Agreed.

FIRST then whereas in the Proclamation we be char­ged to liue contrary to the lawes of God & the Realme, Apoc. cap. 4. sect. 1. &c. We answere that if the lawes of God & the lawes of the Realme did alwaies consent & concur in deed, as in this clause & other cō ­mon writings & speeches proceeding frō autority, they be lightly in words couched togither against vs: hardly could wee defende our doctrines and doings frō error & vnduetifulnes towards our prince. But seeing the lawes of kings and Countries are not euer consonant but may be contrary to Gods commandements, we may iustly mislike the one without disloyalty to the other. When Emperours (saith Augustine) be in errour, Aug. Epist. 166. they make lawes for their errour against the truth, by which iust men are tried & crowned, for not doing that which they command, because God forbiddeth it.

That some princes haue made lawes against God & his truth is a case so cleare that it needed no proofe; as also that wee must rather obey God than men, when their lawes do swarue frō his: & again on the other side that princes haue made lawes for the true seruice & worship of God, & did rightly iudge it to be a part of their charge: & y^t all they which resist those lawes, shalbe grieuously punished at Gods hands: though you craftily dissemble, you can not deny: S. Au­sten in this very place, which you bring for your defence, & the very next words wil tel you so much. Quando autē Imperatores veritatem tenent, pro ipsa veritate contra errorē iubent, Aug. epist. 166. quod quisquis contempserit, ipse sibi iudicium acquirit. When Emperors hold the truth they cōmand for truth against error, which [cōmā ­dement] whosoeuer despiseth he purchaseth to himselfe iudgement. Princes com­manding for truth must be obeied. For he shalbe punished by mē, & haue no part with God, for not doing that, which truth it selfe by the kings hart commanded him. These words you did wel to cut off, they were enough to mar your market.

Not ours.

Wil you thē cōfesse that princes may commād for truth & against error, & that whosoeuer despiseth their commandement in those cases shal incur iudgement. So saith S. Austen in plaine wordes.

They may commaund, mary the Church must appoint them what they shall commaund.The Iesuites play with the name of the church.

What mean you by the Church?

What should I meane by the Church, but the church?

You loue to play with wordes. Mean you laimen or priests, or both?

Euer heard you y^e church taken for lai­men?

When S. Paul sent for the elders of Ephesus, & willed them to take heed to themselues & the whole slocke, ouer which the holy Ghost had placed [Page 124] them to rule,Act. 20. The Church of God is the people of God. or feed the Church of God, what ment hee by the Church; the Priestes to whom he spake, or the people?

There you see the Priestes are to rule the Church.

There also you may see, the Church is not to rule the Prince.

How doth that follow?

The Church is there taken for the people, which must not rule, but obey the Prince.

By the Church in my first answere I ment the Priestes and not the people.

Can you shew where the Church in all the Scriptures is takē for the Priests without the people?

We call them only Churchmen.

We respect not your abuse,The Church neuer taken in the Scrip­tures for the Priest alone. but the right vse of the word. The Church is neuer taken in the new nor old Testament for the Priestes alone, but generally for the whole congregation of the faithfull. And therefore when you say the Prince must be ruled by the Church, you dallie with a doubtfull word, and put a faire colour vppon a foule cause; but you must distinctly tell vs what persons you mean, when you say the Church must appoint, what the Prince shal command.

I meane Churchmen, that is, Priestes, and Bishops.

And what if Churchmen do not agree which is truth,The Iesuites steales from the Church to Churchmē and from thē to the Pope. as in our dayes they do not; may Princes make their choyse what Churchmen they will follow?

No: the chiefe ruler of the Church and head Bishop on earth must appoint them, what faith they shall imbrace.

That chiefe ruler of the Church you take to be the Pope.

We do.

We like you well for your plainesse. Then Princes may commaund that which the Church,By the Iesuits diuinitie the Prince shall commaund what pleaseth the Pope. you meane Churchmen; or if they agree not, the chiefe Churchman, which is the Pope, shall appoint. This is your assertion, is it not?

It is.

What you say Princes must do for the Pope, we say princes may do for Christ: that is, they may plant and establish the Christian faith in their Realmes by their Princely power though the Pope say nay. This is our doctrine, can you reproue it?

Who shall be iudge, which is the true Christian faith?

You slip now to an other question.They be two distinct que­stions who shall commād for truth, and who shall di­rect vnto truth. It is one thing, who may command for truth, & ano­ther who shal direct vnto truth. We say, Princes may command for truth & pu­nish the refusers; this no Bishop may chalenge, but onely the Prince that bea­reth the sworde. This is the first part of our question: And touching the se­cond, which is the safest way for princes to be guided vnto the truth, though we differ about the meanes: you reseruing it as a speciall priuilege to the Pope, we referring it as a common duetie to the Preacher; yet this is euident that Princes must be directed vnto truth the same way that al other Christians are, to wit, by perswasion and not by coaction. For no Prelate, nor Pope hath au­thoritie from Christ to compel priuate men, much lesse princes to the profession of faith, but onely to teach and instruct them. These be the two pointes wee stand on, disproue them if you can.

This is not al. You would haue Our faith and saluation so to hang on the Princes will and Lawes, The Iesuites would make men beleeue that we teach the Princes will to be the rule of faith. Neuer man of our side affir­med any such thing. that there could be imagined no neerer waie to religion, than to beleeue what our temporall Lord and Maister list.

It is a cunning, when [Page 125] you can not confute your aduersaries, at least to beelie them, that you may seeme to say somewhat against them. In deede your fourth chapter is wholie spent in refelling this position, which we detest more than you.

You begin to shrinke from your former teaching.

You will neuer shrink frō your former facing. Did euer any man on our side affirm the princes will to be the rule of faith? Haue we not earnestly written, and openly taught that Religion must not depend vpon the pleasures of men? Haue not thow­sandes of vs here in England and elsewhere giuen our liues for the witnesse and confession of Gods truth, against princes lawes and Popes decrees? In Spaine, If the world can witnesse thus much for vs, then is this a colde cauill of the Iesuites. Fraunce, Italie, and other places at this day, do wee not indure all the tormentes you can deuise, because wee will not beleeue what tempo­rall Lordes and Masters list? Your owne conscience knoweth it is true that wee saie. Why then doe you charge vs with this wicked assertion, from the which wee bee farther off than you? For you holde opinion of Popes, that they cannot erre, we do not of Princes. Why do you father your owne fansies vppon vs? Why dee you purposely peruert the question, heaping absurdities, and alleaging authorities against that which we do not defend?

The oth,Marke how the Iesuites plaie with the oth. which you take your selues and exact of others, induceth vs thus to thinke of you. For there you make Princes the onely supreme Go­uernours of all persons, in all causes, as well spirituall as temporall: vtterly renouncing all forraine iurisdictions, superiorities and authorities. Uppon which wordes marke what an horrible confusion of all faith and Religion insu­eth. If Princes bee the onely Gouernours in Ecclesiasticall matters,The right ex­tract of the Iesuites absur­dities. Apolog. cap. 4. Apolog. chap. 4. Apolog. cap. 4. then in vaine did the holy Ghost appoint Pastours and Bishops to gouern the Church. If they bee supreme, then are they superiour to Christ himselfe, and in effect Christes Masters. If in all thinges and causes spirituall, then they may prescribe to the priestes and Bishops what to preach, which way to worship and serue God, how & in what forme to minister the Sacramentes, and generally howe men shall be gouerned in soule. If all forraine iurisdiction must bee renounced, then Christ & his Apostles (because they were & are forreners) haue no iurisdiction nor authoritie ouer England. A thowsand other absurdities are consequent to this oth which anon you shall heare.

Wake you or dreame you Philander, Their absur­dities are no way conse­quent to our doctrine. that in matters of no lesse weight than your duetie to God and the Prince, you fall to these childish and pelting sophismes? What kinde of concluding call you this? Princes onely beare the sword to commaund and punish, ergo Bishops may not teach and exhort. Prin­ces be not subiect to the Pope, ergo superiours to Christ. They may by their lawes establish those thinges that Christ hath commaunded, ergo they may change both Scriptures and Sacramentes. No forrainer at this day hath a­ny iurisdiction ouer this Land, ergo Christ and his Apostles fifteene hundred yeeres ago might not preach the Gospel.

We make no such fond reasons.

The former propositions are the true contens of the oth, which wee take; the later are those very absurdities which you infer vpon vs for taking that oth.

You would slip from your words which wee knowe, to your meaning which we know not;This is the right suppo­sal of their A­pologie. but that you shal not. We groūded our absurdities vpō the words of your oth. For if princes be supreme gouernors in al spiritual things & causes, ergo they be supreme iudges of faith, deciders of controuersies, interpre­ters of scriptures, deuisers of ceremonies, appointers of sacramēts, & what not?

You might euen as well haue cōcluded: princes be supreme gouernors in al tēporal things & causes; ergo they be supreme guiders of grāmer, moderators of Logik, directors of Rhetorik, appointers of Musike, prescribers of Medicines, resoluers of al doubtes, & iudges of al matters incident any way to reason, art, or actiō. If this be leud & irreuerēt iesting, yours is no better.

I promise you we iest not.

The more shame for you, if you be in earnest, to conclude so loosely.

Princes be su­preme gouer­nours of the persons, not of the things in the church Do you make princes supreme gouernors of al spiritual things?

You reason as if we did; but our words, since you wil needes rest vpon wordes, are not so.

What are they then?

We cōfesse them to be supreme gouer­nors of their Realms & Dominiōs.

And that in al spriritual things & causes.

Not of al spiritual things & causes.

What differēce between those two speeches?

Iust as much as excludeth your wrangling. Wee make them not gouernors of the things themselues,The wordes of the othe. but of all their subiectes, which I trust you dare not withstand.

I grant they be gouernors of their subiects, but not in Ecclesiasticall things or causes.The Iesuites lack neither crakes nor wordes. They must leaue those matters for Bi­shops, whō Christ hath appointed to be y^• rulers of his church. And therfore your oth yeelding that power to princes, which is proper to Bishops; is repugnant to the lawes of God, the church & nature: Yea it is an euidēt error reproueable by al hu­mane & diuine learning, that the souerainty or supremacy in causes Ecclesiasticall is by nature or by christian lawes implied in the right & title of a temporal king, Apolog. cap. 4. or that it euer was due, or can be due, to any temporall gouernor, heathen or christiā in the world. And if you will but giue eare, you shal heare what a number of absurdities we wil fasten vpon you.

This oth is a great eye sore with you, and I remem­ber I promised to discusse the same in this chapter. I will therefore first exa­mine the chiefe parts of it, and after you shall obiect against it what you can.

Where we professe that her Highnes is the onely gouernor of this Realme, the word gouernor doth seuer the magistrate from the minister,The partes of the othe exa­mined. & sheweth a ma­nifest differēce between their office. For Bishops be no gouernors of countries; princes be: that is, Bishops bear not the sword to reward & reuenge; princes do: Bishops haue no power to command & punish; princes haue. This appeareth by the words of our Sauiour expressely forbidding his Apostles to be rulers of na­tions,What is ment by Gouernour & leauing it to princes. The kings of nations rule ouer [their people] and they that be great ones, exercise authority. With you it shal not be so: that is, you shall neither beare rule,Matth. 20. & Mark. 10. Christ by that word distin­guisheth the minister from the magistrat. nor exercise authority ouer your brethren.

The word is [...]: they ouerrule their subiects with iniustice & violence; you shal not do so.

So your new translatiō ouer ruleth the word: howbeit Christ in that place doth not traduce the power of princes as vniust or outragious, but distinguisheth y^• calling of his Apostles frō the maner of regimēt [Page 127] which God hath allowed the magistrate. Christ [...]aith not, princes bee tyrantes, you shal deale more curteously than they do;Luk. 22. but he saith, Princes bee Lords and rulers ouer their people, Luk. 22. by Gods ordināce you shal not be so. Again the word which S. Luke hath is [...] without any composition. They be Lords and masters; & S. Paul confesseth of himselfe & other Apostles, [...],2. Corinth. 1. Not that we be Lords or Masters of your faith: yea the compound [...] is with power & force to rule mē whether they will or no, not with wrong & iniury to oppresse them; & therefore the conclusion is ineuitable, that princes may lawfully compell & punish their subiects which Bishops may not.Publik gouern [...]ment is by correctiō and compulsion. Rom. 13. Matth. 26. 1. Tim. 3. and Tit. 1. Matth. 24. 2. Tim. 2. Bishops for­bidden to vse violence. 2. Timoth. 3. & 4.

This distinction between them is euident by their seueral cōmissions which God hath signed. The prince, not the priest, beareth the sword; ergo the prince, not the priest is Gods minister to reuēge male factors. Peter himself was sharp­ly rebuked by Christ for vsing the sword, & in Peter all Pastors & Bishops are straitly charged not to meddle with it. Al that take the sword shall perish with the sword. And of al men a Bishop must be no striker. For if he that should feede his masters houshold fal to striking, he shall haue his portion with hypocrites. The seruants of God must be gentle towards all, instructing those that resist, with mildnes, not cōpelling any with sharpnes. Their function is limited to the preaching of the word & dispensing the sacraments, which haue no kinde of cōpulsion in thē, but inuite men only by sober perswasions to beleeue & imbrace the promises of God. To conclude, pastors may teach, exhort, & reproue, not force, cōmand or reuenge: only princes be gouernors that is publik magistrates to prescribe by their lawes, and punish with the sword such as resist them within their dominions, which Bishops may not do: speake we truth or no?

We grant Bishops be no magistrates,Bishops no Magistrates to beare the sword but on­ly charged with cure of soules, which the sword can not touch. neither haue they to do w^t the bo­dies or goods of mē, which god hath permitted to the princes power; but yet they be gouernors of soules which princes be not.

No better reason, to warrāt our opinion. The Bishops charge concerneth the souls of mē, but the soule of mā can neither be forced, nor punished by man; ergo Bishops be no commanders nor punishers, but only directors & instructors of the flocke of Christ.

That we know.

Thē since by gouernors we mean rulers, such as God hath authori­zed to bear the sword, why do you fondly cauil that the princes power to cōmand & punish, excludeth the Bishops vocation to teach & exhort, which is nothing so?

You say princes may command and punish as well Bishops as others.

If they bee subiectes no lesse than others, why should they not obey the prince or abide the sword as wel as others?Princes may commaund & punish as well bishops as o­thers. Rom. 13. Rom. 13. Bern. ad Seno­nensum archie­piscopum epist. 42.

Do you make them meere sub­iects?

Not I, but he that said, You must be subiect, not only for [feare of] wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Doth he speake that of clergymē?

He y^• speaketh of al, exempteth none. Let euery soule bee subiect to the higher powers, &c. In these words clergymen be not excepted, ergo cōprised.

Out of this place Bernard reasoneth thus w^t an archbishop of Frāce: Let euery soul be subiect. If euery, thē yours. Who doth except you (y^• be bishops) frō this general speech? He that bringeth an exceptiō, vseth but a delusion. For these [Page 128] things, Chrysost. homil. 23. in Epist. ad Romanos. saith Chrysostom, are commanded to all, as well Priestes and Monks as secular men: which appeareth by the first sentence, Let euery soule bee subiect to the superiour powers; yea though thou be an Apostle, an Euan­gelist, a Prophet, or what soeuer thou be. So Theodorete. Whether he be Priest, Theo. in cap. 13 epist. ad Roma­nos. Bishop or Monk, let them be subiect to Magistrates. This do­ctrine dured in the Church a thousand yeares before your exemption of Clerkes from secular powers, as you call them, was knowen. Paul teacheth euerie soule, Theo. in cap. 13. ad Romanos. Oecumen. in E­pist. ad Rom. Greg. Epistol. lib. 3. cap. 100. saith Theophilact, whether he be Priest, Monk, or Apostle, to be sub­iect and obey Princes. He teacheth euery soule, saith Oecumenius, whe­ther he be Priest, Monk, or Apostle, to submit themselues to Magistrates. Gregorie the first, perceiued and yeelded this exposition to be true. Power, saith he, ouer all men is giuen to my Lord [the Emperour] from heauen. And least you should thinke priests exempted, in the person of Christ he speaketh thus to Mauritius the Emperour,Ibidem. Sacerdotes meos tuae manui commisi, I haue put my Priestes into thy handes, and dost thou withhold thy souldiers from my ser­uice? And elsewhere writing of the same prince,Greg. Epistol. lib. 3. cap. 103. Christ hath granted him to be ruler, not ouer souldiers only but ouer Priestes also.

This is euident by the whole course of the Scripture. Whom did our Sa­uiour charge to giue to Caesar that which was Caesars? Not Scribes and high Priests, Luke 20. as well as others? Christ himselfe was a priest and a prophet, and yet he not onely submitted himselfe to the Romane Magistrate, but confessed the presidēts power ouer him to be from heauen. Iohn. 19. Act. 25. Iude Epist. S. Paul appealed vnto Caesar & appeared before Caesar as his lawful gouernor. S. Iude detested thē for false prophetes that despised gouernment or spake euil of rulers. It is no Religion, it is rebellion against God & his word for clergie men to exempt themselues from the princes power. The commandement is general: Let euery soule be subiect [...] the punishment is eternall, Whosoeuer resisteth power resisteth the ordināce of God, Rom. 13. and they that resist shall receiue to themselues damnation.

Yet reason the clergie be fauoured aboue the Laitie.

Tush, we talke not what fauour princes may do well to shew, but whether Clergie men by Gods law may chalenge an exemption from earthly powers or no?

Not, except princes commaund against God. And if they do so, whom must lay men obey? God or man?

No doubt God.

Then the prince cō ­maunding against God, all men are bound, be they lay men or clerkes, to prefer the will of God before the princes lawes: but when the prince ioyneth with God,The Clergie must be to the people an example of obedience to Princes. and commaundeth for truth, may the clergie resist the prince more than the people may?

They may not.

You say well. Of the twaine they must rather obey, that they may be teachers of obedience, not in wordes onely, but in deedes also. For if they must admonish others to be subiect to princi­palities and obedient to Magistrates, then must they not hinder their doctrine by their doings, nor leade the rest by their example to contemn or resist powers, which they should reuerence and obey.

By no meanes.

And in case the prince be repugnant to God, may priestes or people be violent withstanders, [Page 129] or must they rather be patient indurers of the sword?

They must not resist, but in patience possesse their soules: Luke 21. Rom. 13. They that resist shal receiue iudgemēt.

Ergo whether princes be with God or against God, Priests & Bishops must with gladnes obey,He that must suffer is a sub­iect, as well as he that must obey. Princes go­uernours of all persons. or with meekenes abide the sword.

They must.

And he that suffereth is a subiect as wel as he that obeyeth. For if they be rulers that commaund & punish; certainely they be subiects that must obey the commandement, or abide the punishment.

I think so.

Then monks, Prists & Bishops by Gods law be subiects as well as others, and consequently Princes be Gouernours of all persons within their dominions, bee they Pre­lates, Prophetes, Apostles, or whatsoeuer they be.

In temporal things we graunt, but not in spiritual.

Where Princes may lawfully commaund, all subiects of dewtie must obey.

True: but in Ecclesiastical causes Princes may not meddle.

So say you: but if I proue that the Princes power and charge, by Gods law reacheth as well vnto matters of religion as other things, will you bethink your selues better, and acknowledge your error?

When you proue that we may do this, which will neuer be.

Marke first what we reath, and next what we proue, that you be not deceaued.

Wee teach that God in deliuering the sworde to Princes,And that in causes Eccle­siasticall as wel as in tem­porall. hath giuen them this direct charge to prouide that as well true religion be maintayned in their Realmes, as ciuil iustice ministred: and hath to this end allowed Princes ful power to forbid, preuent, and punish in all their subiects, be they laymen, Clercks, or Bishops, not only murders, thefts, adulteries, periuries, and such like breaches of the seconde table; but also schismes, heresies, Idolatries, and all other offences against the first table pertayning onely to the seruice of God and matters of religion.The Prince charged with both tables. Wee doe not imagine this of our owne heades, we find it annexed to the crowne by God himself: who when he first gaue the chil­dren of Israel leaue to choose them a king, withall appointed, that the Law truely copied out of the Leuites original (which was kept in the tabernacle) should be deliuered the king sitting on his royal seate with this charge:Deut. 17. That booke shall remaine with the king, he shall reade in it all the dayes of his life, that he may learne to feare the Lord his God, & obserue all the wordes of the law [there written] and these statutes to do them. This was not doone till he was placed in his throne, so sayth the text: therefore this touched not the kings priuate conuersation as a man; but his Princely function as a magistrate; which will you, nill you, stood in cōmaūding others, not in guiding his own person. For no man is a king in respect of himself, but in ruling his subiects.Aug. Epist. 50. As a man he serued God one way, sayth Austen, as a king an other way. As a mā by faythful lyuing, as a king in setting forth lawes to cōmaund that which is good and remoue the contrarie. So that kings, as kings, serue God in doing that for his seruice, which none but kings can do. Then if the whole Law were cōmitted to the king, as a king, at his coronation; that is, to cōmaund it others; which none but kings could doe within their Realmes; [Page 130] ergo the publishing, preseruing and executing of the first table touching the sin­cere worship of God, was the chiefest part of the Princes charge.

To make my cōclusion y^e stronger, let vs see what y^e godly kings of Israell & Iu­dah did in matters of religiō, hauing no farther nor other cōmission frō God, than this which I last repeated.How the god­ly kings of Iu­dah did inter­prete their charge. The diligēt executiō of their office wil serue for an eui­dēt expositiō, what God required at their hānds. We cā look for no plainer declara­tiō of Gods meaning in this point, thā Gods own cōmendatiō of their acts in this case. The lawmaker is y^e best interpreter: if they by their princly power remoued idols, 2. Kings 23. 2. Kings 18. 2. Chro. 34. & 35. razed hilalters, slue false prophets, purged the land frō al abominations, not sparing the brasen serpent (made by Moses) whē they saw it abused: if again by y^e same power they caused the tēple to be clensed, the law to be read, the co­uenant to be renued with God, the passouer to be kept, the Leuits to minister in their courses inuēted by Dauid: 1. Kings 2. if to conclude, the prince deposed the chiefe bishop placing a fitter in his steed, & forced al [prophets, priests & people] that were found in Israel (sincerely) to serue the Lord their God; if I say they did al this (as the scripture beareth record they did) & their zealous proceedings in these cases were liked, accepted, & praised by Gods own mouth: who besides Iesuits is either so blind that he seeth not, or so froward that he confesseth not, that princes were charged by God himselfe to plant & establish his true seruice in their domi­nions, & with their Princely power to prohibite & punish all offences & abuses, be they temporal or spiritual, against the second or first part of this heauenly law?

This charge concerned none but y^e kings of Israell & Iudah.

That re­fuge doth rather manifest your folly,The same charge extē ­deth to the kings of the new testamēt. thā satisfie my reason: did, I pray you Sir, y^e cōming of Christ abolish the vocatiō of princes? I tro not. Thē their office remai­ning as before, per cōsequent, both y^e same precept of God to them stil dureth, & al­so y^e like power to force their subiects to serue God & Christ his son, standeth in as ful strēgth vnder the gospel as euer it did vnder y^e law. For princes in y^e new testamēt be Gods ministers to reuēge malefactors, as they were in y^e old, & y^e greater y^e wickednes,Rom. 13. They be gods ministers to reuenge all e­uill. Rom. 15. How kinges must serue the Lord and Christ his sonne. Psalm. 2. Aug. contra literas Petilia. lib. 2. cap. 92. y^• rather to be punished, ergo y^e greatest (as heresies, idolatries & blas­phemies) are sonest of al other vices to be repressed by christiā magistrates: whose zeal for Christs glory, must not decrease, Christs care for their scepters being in­creased; and those monuments of former kinges left written for their instructiō.

Were not this sufficient, as in truth it is to refute your euasion: yet king Dauid forseeing in spirit y^e heathē kings would bād thēselues & assemble togither against y^e Lord & his Christ, extēdeth y^e same charge to y^e gētiles which the kings of Iurie receiued before, & warneth thē al at once, Be wife ye kings, vnderstād ye iudges of the world: serue the Lord. Upon which words S. Aug. inferreth thus: Al men ought to serue God: in one sort, by cōmon cōdition as mē; in an other sort, by seueral gifts (& offices) by the which som do this, some that. No priuat person could cōmand idols to be banished clean frō among men, which was so long before prophesied. Therfore kings (besides their duty, to serue God common with al other men) haue, Idem contra Cresconium lib. [...]. cap. 51. in that they be kings, how to serue the Lord in such sort, as none can do which are not kings. For in this kings (in respect they be kings) serue the Lord (as God by Dauid enioyneth them) if in their kingdoms [Page 131] they cōmand that which is good, & prohibite that which is il, not in ciuile af­faires only, but in matters also concerning diuine religion.

With this indeuor of christian princes, God cōforteth his church by y^e mouth of Esay. The church shall suck the brestes of kinges. Thou shalt suck the brests of princes, kings shalbe thy foster fathers, and Queenes thy nurcing mothers. What Esay saith princes shal do, that I cōclude princes must do, because God would not promise they should vsurp an other mās office but discharge their own. Thē if you frō Rhemes, or your brethrē frō Rome tel vs y^• the nurcing of christs church is no part of the princes duty, we detest your insolēt negatiue: God is truth, who saith it, & you be liars. If you take y^e milke of princes for tēporal honors, lāds & goods (which your church in deed hath greedily swallowed) the very children wil laugh you to skorne.The milke of princes is not temporall wealth. The church of Christ is no wāton, she lusteth for no worldly wealth, which is rather hurtful poison, than hol­som food: Gods prouision for hir, is spiritual, not carnal; hir delights are not out­ward in flesh, but inward in grace: the prophet, good mā, had no leasure to thinke on your farms, demeans & reuenues: This promise must be common to the faith­full, not priuat to your cloisterers, which in earthly things plied the bottle so fast, that they suckt their nurces dry. No remedy, you must needs yeeld vs, that christiā princes in respect of their office, not of their riches, haue receiued an expresse com­mandemēt from God to shew thēselues nurces to his church. Now nurces by na­ture must prouide food for their infants, & defend them from dāger, ergo kings & queenes in y^e new testamēt are boūd to tēder y^e church of Christ, & by their prince­ly power & publik lawes to defend the same from infection of heresies, inuasion of schisms, & all other apparent corruptions of faith & good maners.

Who, August. epi. 50. saith S. Aug. being in his right wits, wil say to (christiā) kings, take you no care who defēdeth or impugneth in your realms the church of (christ) your master? Let it not pertain to you, who lift to be religious, or sacrilegious with­in your kingdōs? And left he should seem skāt resolued in this opinion, he biddeth opē defiāce to the Donatists in these words:Idem contra 2. Gaudenij epist. lib. 2. cap. 11. Idem contrae Epist. Parmen. lib. 1. cap. 7. The Prince charged to punish false and corrupt religion. Cry thus if you dare, let murders be punished, let adulteries be punished, let other degrees of lust & sinne be puni­shed; only sacrileges (that is cōtēpt of God his truth, or his church) we wil not haue punished by princes lawes. And againe, Will (the Donatists) though they were cōuinced of a sacrilegious schisme, say that it belongeth not to the prin­ces power to correct or punish such things? Is it because such powers do not stretch to corrupt & false religiō? But (christiā) emperors persecute the Pagās: doth that displease thē? The works of the flesh Paul nūbreth these; fornicatiō, vncleanes, strife, dissentiō, heresie, drunkēnes & such other. What thinke these mē, may the crime of idolatry be iustly reuēged by the magistrate? wel, if that like them not, why cōfesse they that witches be rightly punished by the rigor of (princes) lawes, & will not agnise that heretikes & schismatikes may bee repressed by the same, seeing Paul doth rehearse them togither with other fruites of iniquity? Will they reply that earthly powers are not to medle with such matters (of religion?) To what end then beareth he the sword, which is called Gods minister, seruing to punish malefactors? Certainly Princes, Read on the place, contra epist. Parmen. lib. 1. cap. 7. &c.

[Page 132] Compell them to come in; spoken to the magistrates.If this learned father can not fray you from reuiuing the frantick error of y^e Donatists against the Princes power in matters of religion, I trust you will somwhat reuerence the precept which our Sauior in his Gospell gaue the magistrate, when he had the first sort of ghestes to be brought to the great sup­per, the second to be forced:Luke 14. Aug. contra 2. Gaudent. Epist. lib. 2. cap. 17. Mat. 21. 1. Corinth. 10. Go, sayth he, forth into the wayes and hedges: Compell thē to come in, that mine house may be filled. Wee take wayes, sayth Austen, for heresies, hedges for schismes; because wayes in this place signifie the diuersenes, and hedges the peruersenes of opinions. House, God hath none, but his house of prayer, neither table beside the Lords table. So that this seruant is expressely charged to Compel them from heresies, and schismes to the confession of truth, consent of prayer, and communion of the Lordes table. To performe this, Christ hath left no seruant but the minister or the magistrat: no meanes saue the word or the sword. To compell heretiks and schismatiks, neither is it possible for the preacher if he would, nor lawful if he could: he lacketh both meanes and leaue to constraine them. His calling is with patience to teach, 2. Tim. 2. Mat. 24. Tit. 1. Mat. 20. 2. Pet. 5. not with violence to force; to feede, not to stryke; to reproue with tongue, not to subdue with hand. Only the Prince beareth the sword, which can and may compell recusants: and therefore Bishops since they be flatly forbidden to Rayne, must not meddle with the material sword being the chiefest part & strength of an earthly kingdom: neither ought any to draw y^e sword, but he that holdeth it in Gods stead to reward and reuenge. Ergo, these wordes,Luke 14. Compell them to come in, that mine house may be filled, were spoken to Christian Princes, and are to them both a warrant and a charge to represse schismes and heresies with their Princely power, which they receiued from aboue; cheefly to maintaine Gods glorie, by causing the bands of vnitie to be preserued in the Church, and the rules of fayth obserued.

August. Ep. 50.To the same purpose S. Austen in many places alleageth this parable. The Lord himself, sayth he, willed the ghests first to be brought, then to be for­ced. What meaneth he by this, Compell them to come, when as he sayd of the first, bring them? If he ment they should be compelled by terror of mi­racles, then might the first sort of ghests which saw many diuine wonders be rather thought to be forced: (but) if by the power, which the Church receaued at Gods hand in due time through the religion & faith of kings, those that are found in high wayes & hedges, that is in heresies & schismes (must) be compelled to come, let them not mislike that they be forced. This cōmaunding by Princely power occasioneth many to be saued, Idem contra 2. Gaundentij epist. lib. 2. cap. 17. which though they be violently brought to the feast of the great householder, and compelled to come, yet being within they find cause to reioyce that they did enter: for both [sorts of commers as well violently forced, as willingly brought] the Lord fortold & hath fulfilled. Idem Epist. 48. Idem Epist. 50. Idem Epist. 48. Therfore let earthly princes serue Christ, in making Lawes for Christ, wherby mē [may] be forced to come to the (great &) holy banquet, yea by banishments & other losses let [their sub­iects] begin to weigh with themselues what & why they suffer, & learne to [Page 133] prefer the Scriptures which they read, before the reportes and cauils of mē.

I thinke it superfluous to staie longer in confirming so manifest a truth. He that is of God, heareth the words of God: he that impugneth them, quarreleth not with Princes, which yet is no small offence, but with him by whom Prin­ces raigne,The Princes charge, as the scriptures do expresse it. whose wisedom may not easily be neglected, nor will resisted. If you deny that this is the Princes charge to see the law of God fully executed, his Sonne rightly serued, his spouse safely nourced, his house timely filled, his ene­mies duely punished, you must counteruaile that which Moses prescribed, Da­uid required, Esay prophesied, Paul witnessed, & Christ commaunded with some better & sounder authority than theirs is: If you grant so much, we wil aske no more: the Princes duety to God once cōfessed, the rest shal quickly be concluded.

In a sense, it is true that you say.

It is simply true that I say: for in your owne iudgement may the Christian faith be freely permitted, & publike­ly receiued in kingdoms & common wealthes?

No doubt.

May godly discipline be likewise planted and preserued amongest men,Al these things must bee done in euery christiā cōmō wealth; and who shall do them but the Prince? and the dis­turbers and neglecters of it repressed and ordered?

It may.

Should corrupt & false Religion be displaced & banished, and the spredders of it disper­sed & skattered?

In any case.

Ought malefactors against God, as he­retikes, blasphemers, sorcerers, idolaters & such other transgressours of the first table, to be reuenged and punished, as well as offenders against men, and the breakers of the second table?

What else?

Can any man freely per­mit, safely defend, generally restrayne and externally punish, within a realme, but onely the Prince?

None.

Then if these things needfully must and lawfully may bee done for Christ and his Church, & none can doe them but Magistrates, it is euident that the Princes power & charge doth stretch vnto thinges & causes that bee spirituall as well as temporall.August. contra Cresconium lib. 3. cap. 51. Or if S. Austens wordes do better please you, that Princes may command that which is good, and prohibite that which is euill within their kingdomes, not in ciuile af­faires onely, but in matters also that concerne diuine Religion.

Did the Christian Princes in the primatiue Church since the cōming of Christ commaund & punish in matters Ecclesiasticall?Christian Princes from the beginning haue delt in causes eccle­siasticall.

If their exam­ples do not concur with my former proofes, good leaue haue you to beleeue nei­ther: if they do, take heede you withstand not a manifest truth. And here you shal choose whether you will haue a short report or a large rehearsal of their doings. Socrates touching them all, saith:Socrat. in prooe­mio lib. 5. We therefore make mention of Emperors throughout this historie, for that since they became Christians, Ecclesiasti­cal matters depend on them, & the greatest Synods haue been, and are yet called by their appointment. And Alciat a man of your own side: Nemim dubiū est, Alciatus inco­dicem rubric. de sacrosanct. ec­clesijs tomo 3. pag. 198. quin in primatiua ecclesia de rebus & personis ecclesiast. &c. THERE CAN BE NO DOVBT saith he, but in the primatiue Church Emperors had the iurisdiction (that is the ruling and gouerning) of persons and causes Ecclesiasticall.

Ius dicere referred to Princes, is not to decide matters in question by law, for so did Iudges & not Princes, but to make lawes: and betweene lawma­kers [Page 134] & gouernors you can find litle difference: for by publike lawes commāding good & punishing euil princes do chiefly gouerne. Then if christian Monarks in the primatiue church guided ecclesiastical matters & persons by their imperiall lawes, as this learned & famous lawier putteth vs out of doubt they did; you must shew when & how they forfeited this power. If it were thē lawful & vsual, how can it be now strange & vsurped? If there be no doubt of this, with what cō ­science do you, not doubt, but deny this? Perhaps you disdaine the witnesse. Al­ciat in euery respect was well learned, & in his faculty, which was law, deser­ueth more credit than the best of you: yet least I should seeme to presse you with names & not with proofes, let vs view the proceedings of some Christiā Empe­rors, and iudge you whether they be not both ancient and euident.

Constantines example. Euseb. hist. lib. 10. cap. 5.What power Constantine claimed & vsed in causes ecclesiasticall, the foure books of Eusebius & other church stories describing the lawes, letters & acts of Cōstantine, beare witnes sufficient. First, he gaue the christiās free liberty to professe their religion, built them places of praier at his own charges, & en­treated their bishops with all possible fauor & honor. Next he prohibited the gen­tiles their ancient & vsual idolatries, diuinatiōs, oracles, images & sacrifices. Heretiks he debarred not only churches & secret conuents, but excluded them also from the priuileges which him-selfe had prouided for Catholike persons. If Constantines example deserue to be praised & followed, which no man, except he be void of common sense, wil gainsay, then may christian Princes in the right of their scepter & sword, I meane their publike vocation & charge, without seek­ing any farther warrāt from Rome, forbid wicked and idolatrous superstition, admit and assist to the best of their power the preaching of the trueth, sequester heretikes from the dignities and liberties graunted to good and religious sub­iectes: for so did Constantine, whose godly vertues and happie paines all na­tions then imbraced, all ages since confessed, all Princes now should imitate.

Besides this he did many thinges both for spredding the faith & guiding the church of Christ worthy great cōmendation.Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 2. cap. 28. Socrat. lib. 10. cap. 34. By my ministery (saith this good Emperor) mākind is brought to the keeping & obseruing of the most sacred law: by the seruice which I perform to God, al things euery where (directly speaking of things ecclesiasticall) are setled in order, yea the barbarous nati­ons, which til this time knew not the truth, now praise the name of God sin­cerely, whom they reuerēce for dread of vs. Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 1. cap. 37. Towards the church of Christ he shewed an excellēt & special care: calling coūcels of bishops when any dis­sention sprang, as a common bishop & ouerseer appointed by God, not dis­daining to be present & confer with them (the rather) to keep thē al in chri­stian peace. Ibidem lib. 3. cap. 13. For his maner was in their synods not to sit idle, but to marke ad­uisedly what euery man said, to help their either side disputing, to tēper such as kindled too fast, to reason mildly with ech part, & vndertake iointly with thē to search out the truth: confirming their decrees with his seal, least other (tēporal) iudges & rulers should infringe them. When occasiō serued him not to gather a coūcel,Ibidem lib. 3. cap. 22. he did by writing aduertise the parties dissenting of his o­piniō & iudgemēt, interposing himself as an arbiter in their cōtrouersies: somtimes [Page 135] Prescribing the bishops what was profitable for the church of God, Ibidem. lib. 3. cap. 23. somtimes the people: to which end he wrot many letters, emitting neither rebukes nor threats, whē need so required.Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 28. Whē y^e coūcel of Tyrus was gathered by his edict, he cōmāded thē first to discusse the truth of such crimes, as were pretēded against Athan. who was loth to come before thē, saue that he feared the thretning letters of Const. writtē to this effect.Euseb. de vita Constan. lib. 4. cap. 42. If any, which I think not, in contēpt of our mādate, fail to come before you, we wil send a warrāt frō our roial autority, that he shalbe banished, to teach him, what it is (for bishops & clerks) to withstād the precept of the chief ruler defending the truth. Athan. & y^e bishops of his part appeared; but finding the coūcel very partial, protested a­gainst thē & appealed frō thē in these words:Athanas. Apol. 2. cap. Quum multas. Athanasius and his side appeale from the councel to the prince. Because we see many things spite­fully cōtriued against vs, & much wrōg offred the catholik church vnder our names, we be forced to request, that the debating of our maters may be kept for the princes most excellēt person: we can not bear the drifts & iniuries of our enimies, & therfore require the cause to be referred to the most religious & deuout emperor, before whō we shalbe sufferd to stād in our own defēces, & plead the right of the church. Yet to preuēt the worst Athan. himself fled to Constant. beseeching him to send for the bishops & examine their acts. Upon whose cōplaint y^e good prince wrote this to the whole councel:Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 34. Your synod hath decreed, I know not what in a tumult & vprore, whiles you seeke to peruert truth by your pestilent disorder, for hatred against your fellow (bishops:) but the diuine prouidēce wil (I doubt not) scatter the mischief of your contentiō & make it plain in our sight, whether your cōuent had any regard of truth or no. You must therefore al of you resort hither to shew the reason of your do­ings: for so doth it seem good & expedient to me: The Councell of Tyrus com­manded to come before the Prince & giue account of their do­ings. What Con­stantine did in Athana­sius his cause. to which end I willed this rescript to be sent you, that as many of you, as were present at the councel of Tyrus, without delay repair to the place of our abode, there to giue accompt, how sincerely, & soundly you haue iudged: and that before me, whom your selues shal not deny to be the sincere minister of God (in these cases.) The prince summoned, y^e coūcel prescribed thē what they should hādle, gaue charge to y^e parties accused to come before thē, sharply rebuked y^e bishops assembled in this synod, cōmāded thē to come corā nobis, & rēder a reason of their tumultuous iudgemēt, assured thē y^t he would in his own person examin their doings whether they were good & substātial or no. This power he chalēged ouer churchmē & church­matters, not as a violēt vsurper, but as gods minister ordained to y^• intēt: which y^e catholik bishops, y^t took part w^t Athan. cōfessed to be true by their appeal, y^e rest y^• deposed him, neither did nor durst deny. So y^e Const. was both an orderly re­fuge for Athan. & a lawful cōtroler of y^e coūcel of Tyrus, notw^tstāding y^e crimes obiected there to Macarius & Atha. were spiritual, to wit,Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 27. the striking of a priest ouerthrowing the Lordes table, dashing in peeces the mystical cup, burning the sacred books, vsing a dead mās hand to sorcery, w^t many such hainous of­fences leudly deuised by their accusers, not any way proued against them, yet taken by their aduersaries, then iudges, for iust matter to condemne them.

In restoring Arius, The restoring of Arius. the mildnesse of Constantine was somewhat abused by [Page 136] the crafty dissembling of heretikes: yet thereby may well appeare what autho­rity this Prince claimed to command Bishops & release the rigor of their eccle­siastical cēsures. Thus stood the case. The Princes was often tolde that Arius held no such opinion as the world misdouted in him.Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 25. If Arius, saith he, consent to the Nicene coūcel, I wil admit him to my sight, & send him home with ho­nor. Arius & his adherents accepting the cōdition, were willed to put their faith in writing; & with their wily submission so pleased Cōstantine (very glad to see them yeeld to the Nicene creed) that he sent thē with his letters towards Alexandria to be receiued. At their cōming Athanasius the Bishop of those parts refused to cōmunicate with them, aduertising his Maiesty by writing, y^e heretiks once deposed might not be restored to their former estate. Constantine tooke this exception in such il part, that he fel to cōmanding Athanasius in short & sharp terms.Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 27. Constantine threatneth Athanasius for not recei­uing Arius. Knowing our pleasure, WE CHARGE YOV, that you suffer freely those that will, to returne to the church. For if I learn, that you forbid, or ex­clude such as would gladly be partakers of the church, I WILL PRESENTLY SEND ONE, THAT SHALL BY COMMISSION from me DEPOSE YOV.

This, saith Socrates, he wrote minding to profit the church, & end al dissē ­tion: but it fel out otherwise: for the citizēs of Alexādria were so troubled with the boldnes of Arius, & lack of Athanasius then banished, that Cōstantine doub­ting the peruerse mind of Arius sent for him, Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 37. & 31. & asked him whether he wold subscribe to the Nicene faith: which he did there in presence very readily, but slily. The Prince musing at it, exacted an oth: that he took likewise. Ibidem lib. 1. cap. 38. Then the christian Emperor finding no cause to suspect him farther, COMMANDED ALE­XANDER BISHOP OF CONSTANTINOPLE TO RECEIVE HIM (the next day) TO THE COMMVNION, The Prince cōmaundeth the Patriarke to receiue A­rius to the cō ­munion. which God preuēted with a suddain & shameful death in detestation both of his heresie so long defended, & periury then freshly cōmitted. Now chose whether you wil affirm, y^t Cōstantine was ouer presumptuous & imperious in the church of Christ against al reason & good order: or else agnise that Princes had then authority to require the subscriptions & othes of such as they suspected in religion, to restore those that were deposed, to their ancient places vpon their submission, and command the chiefe Bishops (for so were both these, the first of Alexandria, the second of Constantinople) to receiue such as had pur­ged themselues, in the Princes iudgement and presence, to the communion.

Uengeāce frō heauen, decided the case with Athanasius against Arius.

No doubt Arius was worthly plagued for his false swearing, & wicked meaning to trouble the church of God worse with his secret dissembling, than he did be­fore with his open rebelling: but what is this to Constantine, whose zeale to preserue truth was neuer doubted, whose care to procure concord in the church can not be blamed, whose diligence to sift Arius with an oth could not be bette­red? We propose not the lewed fact of Arius blaspheming God, & iugling with man, we detest that mōster as much as you: but we lay forth the steps of Cōstā ­tine seeking & hoping his reformatiō, & to y^e end cōmanding the very Patriarks themselues, & threatning due punishement if his princely will were not obeyed.

[Page 137] Iustinian in his Code repeateth the lawes of former Emperours not onely touching the Christian faith,Codi. lib. 1. tit. 1.6.2.3. Tit. 5.7.9.11. baptisme, Churches and bishops, but also, touching heretiks, Apostataes, Iewes, and Infidels. In his Authentikes he maketh ma­ny new cōstitutions in which he disposeth OF SACRAMENTS, Nouel. consti­tut. 57.37. & 42.123. Nouel. constit. 123.131. Nouel. constit. 5. & 131.3.67.79. Nouel. constit. 123.133. Nouel. const. 6. & 123. Nouel. consti­tutione, 123. in what places, by what persons, w^t what lowdnes of voice they shalbe ministred: OF SYNODS, when they shall be kept, what things shalbe reformed in them according to the sacred Canons, and his Princely lawes; also what Canons of Councels shall stand in y^e same strength with his Lawes: OF CHVRCHES AND ABBAIES, guiding the maner of their erection, the number of their Clerkes, their expen­ces, suites and priuileges: OF MONKS, who shal elect their Abbate what time shall suffice for their triall; what rules they shall keepe for praier, diet, rest, and such like dueties of life; to whom the correction and ouersight of them shall be­long: OF PRIESTS, DEACONS, AND OTHER SERVITORS in the Church, limi­ting their age, condition, learning and good report before they shall be receiued to this charge; their diligēt, sober and chast behauiour afterward: OF BISHOPS, howe they shall bee chosen, in what sort their soundnes in faith, skill in common prayer, and clearnes from all iust accusations, prohibited by the sacred rules, or lawes imperiall, shalbe throughly sifted, before they may bee confirmed; what causes they shall medle with in their Consistories, what superior iudges they themselues shall haue, from whom they shal not appeale; what punishment they shall endure for Simonie, non residence, wrongfull excommunication, playing at tables, resorting to spectacles, ordering any Clerke without diligent exami­nation, or contrarie to the Princes ecclesiastical lawes: in which cases Iustinian commandeth them to bee SVSPENDED, EXCOMMVNICATED, DEPOSED, as the fault meriteth, and his edict appointeth.

It was then no newes for a Prince to say:Nouel. constit. 123. The prince receaueth in­formation & cōmaundeth correction. Nouell. consti­tutione 6. The doctrine & discipline of the church must be the Princes chee­fest care. The Bishops & Patriarks of euerie dio­cesse cōmaū ­ded and threatned. Diuers complaints haue beene brought vs against Clerks, Monks and many Bishops, that some leade not their liues according to the sacred Canons, others can not the publike prai­ers which should be sayd at the sacred oblation and baptisme: we therefore recounting the iudgement of God with our selues, HAVE COMMAVNDED THAT IN EVERY MATTER THVS DETECTED, LAWFVLL INQVISITION AND CORRECTION PROCEEDE, comprising in this edict those things that were before skattered in sundry constitutions touching the most religious Bi­shops, Clerkes and Monkes, with such punishments added, as wee rhought expedient. And againe, OVR CHIEFEST CARE IS FOR THE TRVETH OF GODS DOCTRINE, AND SEEMELY CONVERSATION OF THE CLER­GIE. THE THINGS THEN WHICH WE HAVE DECREED AND MAKE FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE SACRED ORDER AND STATE, CONSONANT TO THE TENOR OF HOLY RVLES, LET THE MOST GODLY PATRIARKES OF EVE­RY DIOCESSE, THE METROPOLITANES AND RIGHT REVEREND BISHOPS AND CLERKES KEEPE FOR EVER HEREAFTER INVYOLABLE: THE BREAKER OF THEM SHALBE SVRE TO BE SEQVESTRED VTTERLY FROM GOD AND EX­CLVDED FROM HIS PRIESTLY FVNCTION: Licencing all men, of what [Page 138] sort or calling soeuer they bee, that perceiue the least point of these our Lawes transgressed, to denounce and infourme the same to our highnes, that wee, which following the sacred rules and Apostolike tradition haue commaunded these thinges, may reuenge such offendours as they well deserue.

Nouel. Con­stitut. 5.Farther hee sayth, Our purpose in this present Lawe is next after those matters which wee haue disposed of the most holy Bishoppes and reue­rend Clerkes to set a good order in monasticall discipline: for so much as there is no kinde of thing exempted from the Princes inquisition, Nouel. Con­stitut. 133. The Prince soueraigne o­uer all men, and that in things cōcer­ning God which must be preserued from corrup­tion by the prelates, but most of all by the Prince. which hath receiued from God a common regiment, and soueraintie ouer all men: and these things which concerne God must bee preserued from corruption by the sacred Prelates and [ciuill] Magistrates, but most of all by our Maiestie, which vse not to neglect any diuine causes, but labour by all meanes, that our common wealth (by the fauour of the great God, and our Sauiour Christ towardes men) may reape the fruite of that pure­nes and integritie, which Clerkes, Monkes and Bishoppes from the high­est to the lowest, shall shewe foorth in keeping the sacred Canons, & our lawes prouided in that behalfe: which constitutions, by this our decree, wee strengthen a fresh and ratifie. Put on your spectakles, and see whether Iustinian do not take vppon him to gouerne the doctrine and discipline of the Church, the conuersation of Clerkes, Monkes and Priestes: and to com­maunde Prelates and Patriarkes in the celebration of sacraments, conuo­cation of Synodes, election and confirmation of Bishoppes, ordering of Clerkes, and such like functions (except our eyesight fayle vs) wholy spiri­tuall, and in the iudgement of your neerest friends acknowledged for causes ecclesiasticall.

I will omitte what Iustinian enacted touching mariages, diuorces, le­gacies, funerals, incests, adulteries, and such like:The things were then in the Princes charge which the Pope now tieth to spiri­tual courtes. then pertinent to the Princes power and sworde, nowe claymed by your holy father for a sur­plussage to causes ecclesiasticall; and with that seely shift conueyed out of Princes handes, who first vppon fauour and opinion of holynes and wise­dome in Bishoppes, gaue them leaue to meddle with such matters: I will omitte, I say, that; and descende to the Lawes of Charles the great, Emperour of the West partes, eight hundreth yeeres after Christ, which Ansegisus gathered together within thirteene yeeres of the death of the sayde Charles. In his preface of those Lawes thus speaketh that wise Prince.

Careli praefa. in leges Franciae. The preface of Charles to his lawes di­recting com­missioners to reforme the Church in his name and by vertue of his autho­ritie. Considering the passing goodnes of Christ our Lord towardes vs and our people, and howe needefull it is, not onely to giue thankes to God incessantly with heart and mouth, but also with good endeuours con­tinually to set foorth his (honour and) praise &c. Therefore (O you Pa­stours of Christes Church, and teachers of his flocke,) Haue wee [Page 139] directed Commissioners vnto you that shall ioyne with you to redresse those thinges, which neede reformation, in our name and by vertue of our authoritie: and (to this ende) wee haue here annexed certaine briefe chapters of Canonicall (or ecclesiasticall) institutions, such as we thought meetest. Let no man iudge this our admonition to godlines to bee presumptuous, Whereby wee seeke to correct thinges amisse, to cutte off superfluities and leade men to that which is right, but rather receiue it with a charitable mynde. For in the booke of kinges wee reade what paynes godly Iosias tooke to bring the kingdome giuen him of GOD to the true worship of the (same) God, by visiting, correcting and instructing them; not that wee compare our selues with his sanctitie, but that we should alwayes imitate such examples of the godly. We see the reason why these Lawes were published, and commissioners sent from the Prince to put them in execution: now let vs examine the Lawes them­selues, and marke what causes they chiefely concerne. Peruse the booke: you will (on my woord) expect no farther proofe, that Princes had then to doe with persons and causes ecclesiasticall. If your leasure serue you not, by these fewe, which I will report, you may coniecture the rest. The first seuen and fiftie Canons are borowed out of such generall, and prouinciall Coun­cels as Charles best liked: for example.

That no man excommunicated in one place shall bee taken to the communion in an other place: Legū Franciae li. 1. Cap. 1.2.3. That when any Clerk is ordered, his faith and life bee first ex­actly tried: That no strange Clerke bee receaued or ordered without letters of commendation, and licence from his owne Bishop: Cap. 23. That no seruant bee made Clerk or Moncke without his masters consent: Chap. 49.25. That no man bee made Priest vnder thirtie yeares of age: neither then at randon, but appointed and fastned to a certaine cure: Cap. 11. That no Bishop meddle with giuing orders in an other mans diocesse: Cap. 57.45. That no Bishop veele any widoes at all, Cap. 13. nor maydens vnder the age of twentie and fiue: That the Bishop of each Prouince, and the Metropolitane meete yerely twise in Councel, for causes of the Church: Cap. 6. That Priests when they say their masses shall also communicate: Cap. 20. That only the bookes canonical shall bee read in the Church: Cap. 41. That the false names of Martyres and vncertaine memo­ries of Sainctes bee not obserued: Cap. 15. That Sunday bee kept from euening on (Saturday) till euening (the next day:) with other such constitutions prescri­bing a direct order to Bishoppes, Priestes, and Monkes, for ecclesiasticall causes.

These bee Canons of former Councels.

True, but selected and deliuered by Charles to those visitours which he sent with his au­thoritie to refourme the Church: and the rest that followe, to the number of an hundred and fiue chapters, did Charles frame by conference with learned and godly men at his discretion. Which yet concerne the regiment of the Church no lesse than these doe. You must beare with the length of them, they be matters profitable to be knowen (I speake for the most part of them) & great­ly pertinent to this question. You shall thereby resolue your selfe howe farre [Page 140] Princes then lawfully might, and carefully did medle with guiding and ruling the Church of God: and see both a worthie memoriall and a right president of a Princes visitation and reformation of all states, aswell in matters of fayth, as good order and discipline.

There bee sixe score chapters besides these, recorded by the same wri­ter of the lawes, that Charles made touching ecclesiasticall Persons and cau­ses, which I for breuitie sake omitte, leauing you to consider of them when you see your time.

Charles, Charles by his lawes rectified al ecclesiasticall things and causes. by these publike lawes, appointed what doctrine should be preached, what abuses in the Lords supper amended, what parts of diuine seruice pro­nounced by the Priest and people together with one voyce, what bookes should bee read in the Church, what holy dayes obserued, what memories of Saints abolished, what woorkes on Sonday prohibited: hee prescribed the Bishops their dueties, the Priestes their charge, the Monkes their rules: hee di­rected thee keeping of Synodes, electing and translating of Bishoppes, or­dering and placing of Clerkes, paying and employing of Tythes: decided what shoulde become of their mariages that were taken away by force, or affianced before to others: forbad the burying of dead corses in the Church, banished Sorcerie, Simonie, Usurie, Periurie: last of all vndertooke, that if any thing were wanting, which needed reformation in causes ecclesiasti­call, it shoulde bee supplyed of him at his leasure. If Charles had the re­giment of monasticall profession, episcopall iurisdiction, canonicall conuersati­on: if hee did, I say, medle with redressing errors in fayth, abuses in sacra­mentes, disorders in diuine seruice, superstition in funerals, othes, charmes, and such other matters, as by the purport of these chapters it is euident he did, what causes can you deuise more spirituall than these? Will you per­mitte these thinges of most importance to the Princes power, and except other of lesse moment? That were notorious follie. You must either inuest them with all, or exclude them first from the weightiest. For if they be gouer­nours of the greatest ecclesiasticall affayres, much more doth their authoritie stretch to the smalest.

Againe, these Lawes of Charles, which amount to the number of eight skore and three,If any wanted he promised at his leisure to supply that defect. what do they lacke of a full direction for all matters needing re­formation in the Church of God? Any thing or nothing? If nothing, then this prince gouerned & ordered al ecclesiasticall causes. If any thing, y^t Charles him selfe assureth vs he would determine, when occasion serued. Choose whether you wil, Charles either way shewed y^e lawful power of Princes to direct & establish [Page 144] all thinges requisite to the faith and Church of Christ. For what hee promised aduisedly to doe; no doubt, hee ment it shoulde, and thought it might, bee iustly perfourmed.

His sonne & his nephew followed his steps and executed his lawes.So did Ludouike his sonne, and Lotharius his nephew the next Emperours after him, whose proceedings declare what account they made of these chapters, and with what diligence they put them in executiō. The monuments of so good Princes I may not ouerslip with silence, their deeds did then profit the Church of God, their wordes will nowe profite vs. Thus did Ludouike, and Lotharius his sonne write to the Bishoppes and magistrates of their Empire.

Legion franciae lib. 2. Cap. 1. You haue all I doubt not either seene or heard, that our father and our progenitors, after they were chosen by God to this place, MADE THIS THEIR PRINCIPAL STVDIE, Cap. 2. howe the honour of Gods holy Church, and the state of their kingdome might bee decently kept: and wee for our part, following their example, since it hath pleased God to appoint vs that we should haue the care of his holy church, and this Realme, are very desirous, so long as wee liue, to labour earnestly for three speciall points, I meane to defende, exalt and honour Gods holy Church and his mini­sters in such sort as is fit, to preserue peace, and do iustice among the people.

Cap. 3. The cheefe of this ministe­rie consisteth in the princes person to whom the Bi­shops are co­adiutors. Cap. 12. Cap. 11. The Prince willeth all without ex­ception to obserue his commaunde­ments in all things as well ecclesiastical as temporal. Cap. 26. Bishops to be reformed by the Kings visitours. Cap. 27. The kings decrees tou­ching all things and causes to be obserued of all men. AND THOVGH THE CHIEFE OF THIS MINISTERIE CONSIST IN OVR PERSON, yet by Gods and mans ordinance it is so diuided, that euery one of you in his order and calling hath a part of our charge, in so much that I should bee your admonisher, and you all my coadiutors. For which respect our intent is by other good meanes, and by commissioners appointed for this purpose, to learne and trie howe well our lieutenants fauour and execute iustice, and howe religiously our Bishops liue and preach: WILLING TOV ALL VVITHOVT EXCEPTION TO OBSERVE OVR COMMANDEMENT IN ALL THINGS AND HONOVR SVCH AS WE SEND FOR ANY OCCASION OR BVSINES EITHER ECCLESI­ASTICALL OR TEMPORAL, AND IN RESPECT OF OVR AVTHORITIE NOT TO FAILE BVT PERFORME THOSE THINGS WHICH WE HAVE ENIOYNED YOV BY THEM.

Nowe the charge that wee giue our visitours is this. First they shall indict assem­blies in two or three places, whither all within the limittes of their commission shall resort, and there make it knowne to all men what is the summe and effect of their message, to witte, that wee haue appointed them for this cause, that IF ANY BISHOP or Lieutenant can not do his duetie by reason of any impediment, hee should haue recourse to them, and by their helpe discharge his dutie: and if the matter bee such as by their industrie can not bee redressed, then shall it bee brought by them to our knowledge: and againe, IF ANY BISHOP or Lieutenant BE FOVND NEGLIGENT IN HIS OFFICE, by their moniti­on he shalbe refourmed.

Wee charge them likewise to make knowen to all men the Chapters or Lawes, QVAE GENERALITER DE QVIBVSCVNQVE CAVSIS STATVIMVS, WHICH WE HAVE DECREED GENERALLY CONCERNING ALL MANER OF CAVSES, and do their best to see them throughly kept of all men. And if any of the things which we haue ordained and commaunded be found imperfect by some defect happily which they can not amend, then shall they with speede make relation thereof [Page 145] to vs that we may correct that which they cannot.

And because the last yere our expectation was not satisfied in such sort as we looked for, Chap. 28. we will that this present (yere) our visitours whom wee haue allotted to this seruice, haue (better) respect and care how euery man that we haue pre­ferred to the gouernance of our people in his calling dischargeth his dewtie to Gods pleasure, our honor, & the benefite of our subiects: and this shall be the very course of their inquirie, whether the things contained in our Capitular, which we deliuered them this yere past, be kept and obserued according to Gods will & our commaundement. Therefore about the midst of May next shall they assem­ble, I meane our visitours euerie man in his diuision with all the Bishops, Ab­bats, Lieuetenants, our fee men and aduocats (the Abbesses and such as cannot come to send their proxies the liuetenant to bring with him his vnder officers and hundreders) and in that conuent shall they first conferre touching Christian religion and ecclesiastical order, The first part of the Princes commission concerned religion and ecclesiastical order. next they shall inquire of our officers how they doe their du­ties, last of our people in what concord and peace they liue. And this inquisition shall they make so diligently and exactly, that we may be trewly certified by thē of al these points. And if any such cause be brought before thē which needeth their help according to the condition of the causes specified in the short rehearsal of our lawes, then our wil is they shall go to the place and re­dresse it by the warrant of our authoritie.

You can neither bee so simple but you may see,Legū Franciae Cap. 12. nor so partial but you must graunt that Ludouike and Lotharius behaued themselues as rightful superui­sours of the Bishops in their Empire,Cap. 26. how they liued and preached: ayding those that were hindered, correcting those that were negligent in their mi­nisteries: Cap. 28. and sent visitours to inquire and redresse by their Princely power any cause that needed reformation in Christian religion or ecclesiastical or­der: Cap. 11. What lacketh this of gouer­ning al men in al matters both ecclesi­asticall and ciuil? commaunding all men generally to reuerence and obay them as wel in ecclesiastical as common wealth matters in respect of their royal authoritie. What more than this doth that oth impart, which you so much declaime against? Or what lesse than this did Ludouike and Lotharius execute? Can their procee­dings please you, and our words expressing the selfesame right offend you? You must either reiect both or admit both: they bee so neare linked, you can not disseuer them.

I now make your selfe iudge, whether these Christian and Catholike Prin­ces were not commaunders and punishers (those we call gouernours) of Bishops, Priests, and Moncks, in maters and causes ecclesiasticall.

I see they were, but yet not supreme, which is the cheefest thing that we mislike in your oth.

I beleeue you well; for by that worde we denie Princes to bee subiect to the Popes consistorie, which is the chiefest thing you respect.

That worde maketh them superiours to God himselfe: for supreme is superiour to all, neither Christes owne per­son, nor his Church excepted.

Can you make such merriments when you be disposed?

Doth [Page 146] not the word inferre superiour to all, or at least subiect to none?

Was it in question, when this othe was made, whether God should be superior to man, or whether Princes should bee subiect to the Pope?Supreme is not superiour to Christ, but not subiect to the Pope.

It skilleth not what was then in question, these bee nowe your woordes.

By this cun­ning you may conclude all that euer wrate with pen or spake with tongue to be wicked blasphemers.

Why so?

Where the superlatiue is vsed, by your rule, God himselfe is not excepted. And so these phrases, a most wise teacher, a most holy Bishoppe, a most mightie prince, and ten thousand such like, which we find in all mens bookes and speeches, bee meere impieties. For they import that many bee wiser, holyer, and mightier than Christ himselfe, or at lest as wise, holy and mightie as he, which is open & inexcusable blasphemie. Name me what father or writer you will, and see by this art of yours whether I proue him not a blasphemer.

The superla­tiue includeth not God, be­cause God with man is not cōpared.That is no right vnderstanding but a foolish carping at mens wordes. For when we giue these titles to men, sanctissimus, potentissimus, beatissimus, the most holy father, the most puissant king, the most blessed Martyr, we meane amongst men; wee compare them not with God.

And since all men euen your selues speake so, why doe you take that foolish aduantage at the word supreme, which we vse; as if we ment not amongst men, but exalted Princes a­boue God?

But the Church of Christ is not excepted, and that consisteth of men.

If by the Church of Christ you meane the faithfull liuing on earth, certainely Princes be not subiect, but superiours to all Christian men. Peter spake to the chosen and elect of God when hee sayde,1. Pet. 2. Tit. 3. Rom. 1. Cap. & 13. Cap. Bee subiect to the king as to the chiefe; Paul willed Titus to warne not the miscreants but the be­leeuers in Creta, to bee subiect to principalities and powers: and wrate him­selfe to all the Saintes at Rome, You must bee subiect for conscience sake. If the Saintes must bee subiect to Princes, ergo the Church; for the Church on earth is nothing els but the collection of Saintes. And if euery soule, that is euery man, must bee subiect,The saints on earth are sub­iect to the Princes sword the graces of God are not. howe can the Church consi­sting of men bee exempted? But if by the Church you meane the preceptes and promises, giftes and graces of God preached in the Church and pou­red on the Church, Princes must humbly obey them and reuerently receiue them as well as other priuate men. So that Prophets, Apostles, Euan­gelists and all other buylders of Christes Church, as touching their Persons, bee subiect to the Princes power; mary the word of trueth in their mouthes, and the Seales of grace in their handes, because they are of God, not of themselues, they be farre aboue the Princes calling and regiment, and in those cases, kinges and Queenes, if they will bee saued, must submit themselues to Gods euerlasting trueth and testament, as well as the meanest of their peo­ple: but this neither abateth the power which God hath giuen them ouer all men, nor maketh them thrall to the Popes iudiciall processe to bee forced and punished at his pleasure: and therefore, this notwithstanding, Prin­ces [Page 147] bee supreme, that is superiour to all, and subiect to none but onely to God.

Who euer taught before you that Princes were subiect only to God?The Church cōfessed prin­ces to be sub­iect to none but to God. Tertul. ad Scapulam. Idem in Apolo­getico. Contra Parme­nian. lib. 3. Ad Populū an­tioch homil. 2.

The Church of Christ from the beginning, Colimus Imperatorem, vt hominem a Deo secundum, & solo Deo minorem: Wee reuerence the Empe­rour, sayth Tertullian, as a man next vnto God, and inferiour only to God. Againe, Deum esse solum in cuius solius potestate sunt, a quo sunt secundi, post quem primi, ante omnes & super omnes Deos & hommes: It is onely God in whose power alone (Princes) are: in comparison with him they bee second, and after him first, afore all and ouer all both Gods and men. So like­wise Optatus: Super Imperatorem non (est) nisi solus Deus qui fecit Impe­ratorem: Aboue the Empe-rour is none but onely GOD, who made the Emperour. And Chrysostome: Parem vllum super terram non habet: (The Emperour) hath no peere on earth, much lesse any superiour.

And that Princes are aboue all,Superiour to al, is subiect to none. Ad popu Ant. homil. 2. Nouel. const. 133. De obitu Theodosij. Greg. epist. li. 3. ca. 100. & cap. 103. Saint Paul is cleare. Let euery soule bee subiect to the Superiour powers. All must bee subiect to them, ergo they bee superiour to all; and superiour to all, is supreme. Chrysostome calleth the Emperour, The highest and head of all men vpon earth. Iu­stinian, sayth the Emperour, hath receiued a common gouernement and Principalitie ouer all men. Ambrose sayth of Theodosius, that hee had power ouer all men. And Gregorie, as you hearde, affirmeth that Power is giuen to Princes from heauen ouer all men, not onely Souldiers but also Priestes. And since I before concluded and you confessed all men, were they Monkes, Priestes, Bishoppes, or whatsoeuer, to bee sub­iect to the Princes power and authoritie both in causes ecclesiasti­call and temporall, why shoulde that nowe bee reuoked or doub­ted?

I neuer did nor will confesse Princes to bee supreme. For he that iudgeth on earth in Christes steade is aboue them all.

You come nowe to the quicke.The word su­preme was added to set Princes at li­bertie from the Pope, and that is it that so much offē ­deth the Iesuites. This very clayme was the cause why the woorde su­preme was added to the othe: for that the Bishoppe of Rome taketh vppon him to commaund and depose Princes as their lawfull and superiour iudge. To exclude this wicked presumption, wee teach that Princes be supreme rulers, wee meane, subiect to no superiour iudge to giue a reason of their doings but onely to God.

This you teach, but this you can not prooue.

It forceth not what wee can doe. The burden in this case to prooue is yours and not ours. You say Princes bee subiect to the Popes Consistorie, wee say they bee not. Must wee prooue the nega­tiue, or must you rather make good your affirmatiue? Againe Saint Paul auoucheth with vs that euery soule is subiect to their power: You contradict those woordes, and say the Pope is not subiect but Superiour to Princes. The generall in precise tearmes concludeth for vs; you except the Pope: must you not prooue your exception?

You be loth to proue;They must proue Princes to be subiect to the Pope: we need not proue them to be free. you knowe the weakenes of your side.

You crosse the plaine wordes of the holy Ghost, and woulde put vs to refute your fan­sies.

Wee say Christs Uicar is not included in those woordes.

Wee say the generall includeth euery particular.

How could Paul make Peter a subiect to Princes, when Peter was none?

Why shoulde not Peter bee subiect to Princes, when God himselfe pronounced by the mouth of Paul that euery soule was subiect to them?

Who euer constred S. Pauls words so, besides you?