PAPIST.

THE Church of Christ continueth for Matth. 16. 18. 28, 20. euer (as is plaine in the Gospell con­fessed of all sides.)

But the Protestants congregation, Luk. 1. 33. hath not continued for euer, and our Church hath.

Therefore not their congregation but our Church is the true Church of Christ.

PROTESTANT.

FIrst, I answer to the whole syllogisme, then to each part. The whole syllogisme is faultie and sophisticall, be­cause there are in it quatuor termini. First, the Church of Christ, viz. Catholike and inuisible: Secondly, the Protestants congrega­tion, viz. particular and visible: Thirdly, continueth for euer, viz. inuisibly: Fourthly, hath not continued for euer, viz. visible. [Page 2] Wherefore the propounding of one, viz. The Church Ca­tholike and inuisible, and assuming of another, viz. Some particular and visible Church. Affirming of the Catholike Church that it continueth for euer inuisible, denying of the Protestants congregation that it hath not continued for euer visi­ble. You play fast and loose, and like a Iugler deceiue the eyes of the simple; For it is all one as if you should thus reason:

• The true Sunne shineth continually,
• Our Sunne shineth not continually:
• Therefore our Sunne is not the true Sunne.

The Sunne indeed shineth continually, but not in all mens sight. And the true Church continueth for euer, but nei­ther wholly nor alwayes visible. Our sun shineth not con­tinually, viz. to vs or in our fight. The Protestant congrega­tions haue not continued for euer, to wit, visible and ap­parant. Now as he that concludes our sunne not to be the true sunne, because it shines not alwayes in our sight, proues himselfe no better then a Sophister; so he that concludes the Protestant congregations to be no part of the true Church, because they haue not continued for euer visible, as now they are, shewes himselfe a deceitfull worker, and can deceiue none but the vnlearned and vnstable, who for want of knowledge in the Scriptures haue not their senses exercised to discerne betweene good and euill, betweene light and darknesse, betweene truth and falshood.

Next to each part I answer, and first to the proposition. Where you say the Church of Christ continueth for euer; if you meane the Catholike Church, the whole company of the faithfull past, present, and to come in all places and times, ioyned to the fellowship of innumerable Angels, and Heb. 12. 22. 23. 24. to Iesus the Mediator as the head by the inuisible commu­nion of one spirit, I graunt you this Church continueth for euer, howbeit knowne onely to God, who onely knoweth 2. Tim. 2. 19. who are his: and so the long continued visibilitie of your falsly called Catholike Church, is not an argument to proue that the garish strumpet of Rome, which hath made all na­tions drunken with the cup of her fornications is the true Reuel. 17. 2. [Page 3] Church, much lesse the Catholike Church; and therefore out of your owne proposition rightly vnderstood, I con­clude against you.

• The Catholike Church is not visible,
• The Romish Church is visible:
• Therfore the Romish Church is not the Catholike Church.

To your assumption, (The Protestants congregation hath not continued for euer.) If you meane the particularity of any congregation that now is called Protestant, do you not then see that you fight with your owne shadow? For we knowe and confesse that our particular congregations, as now they stand, haue not continued for euer, but haue bene gathered ordered and established, some earlier, some later, as God gaue the opportunitie, and as by the light of the Gospell they were able to dispell the Cimmerian darknesse of Po­perie. But if by the Protestant congregation, you meane (as you ought) the doctrine, faith and worship of God now profesled and practised in the Protestant congregations, we say, your assumption is false, and for proofe hereof appeale to the footsteps of all the particular Churches recorded in the Scriptures, and to the Apostolike doctrine which they receiued. If the now Protestant congregations do continue in the Apostles doctrine, in fellowship, in breaking of Acts 2. 42. bread and prayer, as the Churches of Ierusalem, Antioche, Galatia, Corinth, &c. did, then the Protestant congregation in those things wherin consisteth the true being of a Church, hath continued for euer, and doth and shall continue, maugre all popish heresie and treason. And therefore thus we returne your Argument against you.

That church which cotinueth for euer is the true church of Christ. The Protestant Church hath continued for euer, doth and shall continue for euer, because the word of God, (which they hold inuiolably) abideth for euer:

Therefore the Protestant Church is the true Church of Christ.

PAPIST.

That their congregation hath not continued for euer is most [Page 4] plaine: For where as there hath bene since Christ 1600. yeares let themset downe but two for euerie hundreth years, and so in all but 32. and we will vrge them no further.

PROTESTANT.

The mouthes of Papists are alwayes open like hell and the graue, they still craue and are neuer the fuller. This old stale demaund hath beene alreadie often answered. But would you haue two congregations, or two only persons for euery hundreth yeare? Before the captiuitie of Gods Church vnder Popish tyrannie, let the godly Martyrs, Bi­shops, and Pastors, whom histories do record, and whose writings are extant, testifie the faith of those congregations wherein they liued and serued in the chiefest points of do­ctrine, which we maintaine against Papists. That famous Iewell of blessed memorie hath to your euerlasting shame maintained it, and if the God of this world had not blinded 2. Cor. 4. 3. 4. your eyes, that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto you; Nay if the iust God had not 2. Thes. 2. 10. 11. sent you strong illusions to beleeue lies, because you would not beleeue the truth, it could not be that you should thus grope at noone day, and still call for proofe in that which is so abundantly proued. After the Popes had once fully got­ten into the chaire of Apostasie, the ashes of those witnes­ses of God, whom for the testimonie of Iesus Christ you haue slaine, as they are kept in store for a witnesse against you on earth, so their spirits now in heauen do cry against you as the bloud of Abel against Cain. Since the discouery of that Man of sinne in these latter yeares, you haue found our congregations through Gods goodnesse much thicker in all nations then you would haue suffered, if your Nimrods armes had bene as long as they are wont to be.

But what if we should onely answer you, that the first of these 1600. is more in triall of truth then all the rest, as that one day of the institution of Matrimonie betweene one man Math. 19. 4. and one woman ioyned together by an vnseparable knot, is more to proue the integritie thereof, then all the yeares [Page 5] succeeding, wherein Polygamie and Dinorce had preuailed? Would you renounce the triall of these incorrupted times, and appeale to the latter, wherein sundry corruptions were apparantly crept in? What were this else but to shunne the light, as the maner of deceiuers and euill doers is? What the religion of this hundreth was, nay what it ought to be for euer, let the Apostolike writers witnesse, and it the Re­ligion of the Protestant congregations be the same with the religion taught, beleeued and practised in that hundreth, let all the latter times know, that they are too young to con­trole it, much more let Popish noueltie retire into the schooles and cloysters where it was bred.

Lastly, all the times succeeding haue imbraced the Scriptures as the very word of God, haue retained the con­fession of faith called the Apostles Creede, as agreeable to holy Scriptures, and only herein haue sought for the Canon and rule of truth. The Protestant congregations holding the same faith, and seruing God by the same rule, haue therefore on their sides, the consent of all ages from Moses to Christ, from Christ to his Apostles to this day, auou­ching the faith and seruice of God, which they follow and practise, and are compassed with a greater cloude of wit­nesses, then all the Popish Canonists, Summists, Iesuits and Disputants shall euer be able to shew. Hence I thus con­clude.

The faith of the first hundreth recorded in the Scriptures and re­teined in the ages following, holding firmely the Scriptures and the Apostles Creed is the true faith, and they so beleeuing and holding the true Church.

The faith of the Protestant congregations is the same:

Therefore the faith of the Protestant congregations is the true faith and they the true faith and they the true Church.

PAPIST.

They say they haue beene (though innisible) and they know not where. This answer cannot serue nor yeeld any content to a soule desirous of truth. For what man carefull of saluation would leaue [Page 6] a Church alwayes visible and knowne (as ours hath beene) and follow a congregation, the beginning whereof is yet fresh in memo­rie, and was neuer heard of before for many ages together, as themselues cannot deny.

PROTESTANT.

As your religion consists wholly of errors, so you must needs defend it by lies, and that against your owne know­ledge, if at least you haue informed your selfe of the truth of that we say. Were not Christ and his Apostles visible? were not the godly Bishops and Fathers of the Primitiue Church visible? say we not that our religion is the same that Christ and his Apostles taught, that the true Church of God succeeding in all ages did professe and practise accor­ding to the Scriptures, whereas on the other side wherein soeuer you differ from vs, you differ from the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, and haue new forbished erroneous and hereticall opinions, and build vpon mens imperfecti­ons and frailties, and those neither agreeing with the Scrip­tures, nor with the analogie of that faith which themselues mainteined & taught? Why then shame you not to affirme that we know not where the witnesses & teachers of our re­ligion haue bin? for so your meaning must be. True it is that against the long continued visibility of your inglorious Sy­nagogue, wherby you beare the ignorant in hand, that yours is the true Church: We answer truely, and proue it by in­stance of the times of Elias and of our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles, that the synagogue of Satan, is oftentimes and for long time more visible then the Church of God and of Christ, and that the Church of Christ is like the Moone, as In Psal. 10. Augustine Augustine compares it, which sometime giues no light at all. This our answer may giue content to euery soule that is de­sirous of truth, especially such as will take the paines to search the Scriptures, whether the things we say be so or no.

As for that your bad asseueration, that your Church hath beene alwaies visible, and that the beginning of ours is yet in fresh memorie: And was neuer heard of before in many ages [Page 7] together as our selues (you say) cannot deuie, it is euen as true as the rest of your religion. Vnfold vs the antiquity of that capitall and fundamentall point of your religion. Subesse Extran, com, de maior, & obed. cap. Vnam san­ctam. Romano pontifici, est de necessitate salutis. This is your princi­ple of principles, and yet as it is contrarie to all records of Scripture, wherin there are no footsteps of any such depen­dance, so is it controlled by the cleare testimony of all an­tiquitie, by the primitiue state and constitution of the chur­ches Concil, Afric. cap. 92. 101. 105. Concil. Niceu. Can. 6. Epist. lib. 6. epist. 30. & li. 4. epist. 38. in all the Christian world, and by the iudicious sen­tence of Gregorie the first, a Bishop of Rome.

And can we not deny that the beginning of our congre­gation is yet in fresh memorie, &c. God open the eyes of the blind to see your cunning and sophisticall equiuoca­tion, which is now become the idiome and proper lan­guage of poperie. True it is indeede that the recouery of that libertie which by Gods mercy our Churches now en­ioy, since they came out of the spirituall Babylon, which is the Romish Synagogue, may be fetched out of late memo­rie. But is this the question betweene vs? Or rather whe­ther the beginning of that religion which giues the beeing to our churches, and whereby they are distinguished from your Antichristian synagogue be yet in fresh memorie? If Christ and his Apostles with their doctrine and faith be but of yesterday, then so is ours: But if theirs be from the be­ginning, our religion being the same, beginneth not one day or howre later then theirs did.

Lastly be it that the pompous and vainglorie of your sy­nagogue be elder then this renewed face of our churches, will that proue any aduantage for you? Was not the Apo­stasie of Israel elder then the protestation of Elias against 1. King. 18. them, much more then the returne of many out of Israel in the dayes of Hezekiah? Was not the Pharisaicall synagogue 2. Chron. 30. before the preaching of Christ, & before the church which he gathered by his preaching? Boast not therefore of what standing your Antichristian tyranny is, but tell vs, if you can, of what truth your religion is. Truth we graunt you is most ancient, but error also is often very ancient, and is cal­led by Angustine, Vetustissima falsit as, most ancient falshood, and Epist. 166. [Page 8] when the truth after a long time of suppression, commeth to the light againe, in the eyes of them that iudge by the out­ward appearance, error seemeth elder then the truth. Wher­fore let vs clime aboue these middle antiquities which may be common both to truth and error, and let vs come to the eldest and most ancient times of the Church, and there be­hold the true and vndisguised face of the auncientest and truest Church. Let vs search the Scriptures, which onely conteine the most infallible description of the true Church. If you shun this light, say it is, because there is no truth in Ioh. 3. 19. 20. 21. you, yea because your workes are euill, and you feare to come to the light, least it should be manifest that you walke in the truth.

PAPIST.

Secondlie this is to make your cursed Synagogue of the Iewes that crucified the Some of God, and wickedlie cried out, His bloud be vpon vs and our children, for more glorious then Christs Church for which he shed his bloud, and praied so inst antlie to his father, for as they now be in manie parts of the world, so can they shew where they haue remained, & preached their religion for all these 1600 yeares, and to say that Christs Church is inferior to the Iewish Synagogue, is so blasphemous, as Christian eares should not endure to heare.

PROTESANT.

Did Christ shed his bloud to make his Church glorious and eminent in worldly prosperity, like to the strumpet of Rome, that sittes vpon many waters, and hath rule ouer ma­ny Reuel. 17. 1. people, yea ouer Kings and princes? No, no, his king­dome is not of this world, By many tribulations must the Ioh. 18. 36. Act. 14. 22. Rom. 8. 17. Ioh. 16. 33. 2. Tim. 2. 12. Hebr. 12. 8. Church of Christ enter into the kingdome of heauen. It must bee comforted to his suffering, that it may be comforted to his glory. If it suffer with him, it shall raigne with him. In the worlde it shall haue trouble, but in him only peace. All that are not pertakers of chastismens are bastards and not sonnes.

Againe, did Christ by his instant prayer to his Father request that his Church might treade on the necks of Em­rours, ride on a stately s [...]eed, and Kings to hold the stirrop, and going by on foot to lead the Popes horse by the bridle? Or that they might [...]eample patrimonies, large seignio­ries, generall command ouer king and key sar, yea power of life and death ouer euery creature, and to translate king­domes, and to turne the world vpside-downe at their plea­sure? Where is this prayer contained? why had not Christ himselfe, nor any of his Apostles the benefite of it? why was the primitiue church so washed by horrible persecuti­ons? Christ neuer made any such prayer, he prayed that his Church might be preserued not altogether from, but in Iohn. 17. 15 temptations, not that the worldly powers might not annoy the bodies of his Saints, but that their soules might be kept from euill, not that they might haue their heauen in this world, but that they might bee with him where he is and see his Vers. 24 glory.

Againe, was Christ inferior to the Iewes when they crucified him, or Stephen when they stoned him to death, or Iames when Herod cut off his head, or Peter when he bound him in prison? what saith the scripture? For thy sake Acts. 7. 12 we are killed all the day long; and we are counted as sheepe for the slaughter. Neuerthelesse in all these things we are more then Psal. 44. 23. Rom. 8. 36. 37 conquerors, through him that loued vs. Surely by Romish Logicke and and Romish diuinitie, farre more happy and glori­ous was the condition of Pilat, the priestes, and accursed Iewes that cried, Crucifie him, crucifie him, then of poore Christ. O you that are bewitched and inchanted by these Luk. 23. 21. Baby lonish charmes, will you be led by such guides, who know not the beginnings of Christian religion. If any will be my Disciple, let him take vp his crosse and follow me, will you Math. 16. 24 thinke that such can guide you to heauen, whose God is the world, whose glory is shame; which minde earthly things? With them no outward prosperity, no Church; no earthly kingdome, no Church; no scarlet coloured beast, Phil. 3. 19. no triple crowned Pope, no hatted Cardinals, no mirred Bishops, no Church: But see, the singular boldnesse of this [Page 10] popish proctor, ioyned with singular folly. The cursed Iewes can bring as far fetcht antiquicy to proue their Syna­goue to bee the true Church, as the Papists can for theirs. If such antiquity can make you Papists, why may it not as well make you Iewes? This forcible Reasoner prescribeth 1600 yeares for the Papacie, not a yeare or a day lesse doth hee allowe to the Iewish Synagogue, from whence I thus reason.

That which by Popish confession belongs as well to the cursed Iewes as to the Papists, that can neuer proue the Popish Synagogne to be the Catholique and true Church.

Antiquitie of 1600 yeares, belongs as much to the cursed Iewes as to the Papists, as this plaine Reasoner confesseth.

Therefore antiquitie of 1600 yeares, can neuer proue the Popish Synagogue to be the catholike and true Church.

PAPIST.

That our Church hath continued all this while is as certaine, for to omit other Prouinces and Kingdomes, where it hath beene o­penlie knowen, and not to speake howe wee can shew the continuall succession of Bisops in diuerse places of Christendom, as Rhei­mes, Padua, Leigh, and from the Apostles times to these our daies, we can heere in our country proue the continuance of our re­ligion for these 1600 yeares, euen from the time of Saint Grego­rie the great, Pope of Rome, who sent hither Saint Austen that conuerted vs Englishmen frō Paganisme and Idolatry to the faith of Christ, as our owne histories teach, and from Saint Gregorie we can ascend by the current streame of Popes, his predecessors to Saint Peter and Christ himselfe. For that it was our Catholike religion which was then brought in by Saint Austen, no doubt cā be made for our chronicles say so much, & the ruines of so many anciēt Abbies latelie suppressed do aboundantly testifie the same, & none of reason or reading will denie it, the thing is so euident and certaine; That Saint Gregorie likewise coined not a new re­ligion, but kept that which by continuall succession descended vnto him from Saint Peter, is as sure and certaine, for if he had, all the Christian world would haue exclained against him, and yet no [Page 11] such complaint is to be found in anie Historie, or writer, but all highlie commend him for his holinesse and learning, and in our English calender he is inrolled for a Saint, and the like we may saie of all his predecessors: for none of them was euer noted by anie to haue degenerated in anie one article of faith from the religion of their forefathers and the Apostles, and well knowen it is, that 32. of the first were glorious Martyrs, and shed their bloud for the name of Christ.

PROTESTANT.

That your popish Church hath continued 1600 yeares, is so certaine, as it is that your later Popes haue beene and are like those 32 Martyrs, whose emptie number you bring forth to gaine credit vnto that degenerate rable that haue succeeded them not in shedding their owne bloud for the truth of Christ as they did, but in spilling much Christian bloud, partly about strange and vniust quarrels, partly by treasonable and rebellious commotions of their owne rai­sing, partly by bloudy and fiery persecucions. And there­fore the succession of your Popes to those Martyrs, is noe more credit to you, then succession to Moses was to the Scribes and the Pharisees, or succession to Aaron was to Annas & Caiaphas. As in place they succeed godly Bishops, so in doctrine they succeed the Scribes and Pharisees and many Heretikes, in irreligion and prophanes they succeed Lucian and Porphyrie, in tyranny and cruelty Annas and Cayphas, and the old persecuting Emperors of Rome, into Reuel 13. 15. whose dead image they haue put life againe. That which the Apostle Paul foretold of the successors to the Bishops of Ephesus, that of themselues should men arise, speaking per [...]erse Acts. 20. 30. things to draw Disciples after them, hath too long beene ve­rified of the successors in place to those first holy Bishops of Rome. And were that true which you say, that none of the predecessors to Gregorie the first, were euer noted by a­ny to haue degenerated in any one article of faith frō the re­ligion of their forefathers, & the Apostles, which is not vn­knowē to your selues to be most false, for Alfonsus de Castro [Page 12] doth frankly cōfesse that of Liberius the Pope, it is manifest he was an Arriav, & that Anastasious did fauor the Nestorians, Aduers. heres. lib. cap. 4. he that hath read histories doubteth not) ye [...] if the succes­sors of Gregorie haue bin iustly detected some for Atheists, some Coniurers & Necromancers, some for Impoysoners, some for villanous cruelty vpon the bodies of the quicke & dead, some notorious for bastardy, besides other odious sins, generally bribers, Symonists, Epicures, more like to Sarda­napalus, or Heliogabolus, then Peter or Paul, must their suc­cession in place to them to whom all other things they are most vnlike, carie the Church of God on their sides, your owne silence passing by the mention of all the successors to Gregorie the first, by the space of a thousand yeares, im­plies a confession that of those there are some at least dege­nerate from the religion of their forefathers and the A­postles, which if with any face you could denie, you would haue saide as much in them praise with lesse truth, as you haue done of the former but vntruely, But I suppose you cannot be ignorant that your owne Doctor Genebrarde hath Chron. lib. 4. verse. 10. marked about a fiftie Popes for the space almost of 150 yeares, from Iohn the 8. to Leo. 9. as reuolters wholy from the vertue of their ancestors, and saith they were Apostatici, apostatici potius quam apostolici, Apostaticall rather then Apo­stolicall, yea he calleth them monstrous, which also Platina witnesseth, with a witnesse of three speciall ones among the 50. Benedict 9. Siluester 3. and Gregorie. 6. whom he calleth tria teterrima monstra, three most hideous monsters, & what might be said of Iohn the 8. otherwise Pope Ioan, Iohn the 12. two other of the 50. of Gregorie 7. Alexander 3. B [...]niface 8. & Iohn 23. To shew how vnlike they were to the Martyrs, their Predecessors in place you cannot be ignorant, and therefore you did warily to make no noise of these and the like, least their very names might staine their succession, and repeale that glory which you thought to get by the fame of Gregorie your Kalendar Saint touching whom, whether he coyned any new religion or not, or whether hee kept that which by continuall succession descended from Saint Peter, how should we more certainly know, then by enquiring [Page 13] into that religion which Saint Peter and Saint Paul taught, and that not following vncertaine tradition which hath proued the Author of deceiuable fables, but the certaine 2 Pet. 1. 1 [...]. 19. line of holy scripture, which leades vs to Christ himselfe, who onely knew the minde of his father, and hath in his written word reuealed it to his Church? For as Ciprian saith, Si ad diuinae traditionis caput & originem reuertamur, cessat Ad Pompei. contr. epist Steph error humanus, If we returne to the head and beginning of diuine tradition, (that is, the doctrine which God himselfe deliuered) humane error is put downe, which that auncient Father by an excellent similitude setteth out thus; Si canalis quae, &c. If the conduit pipe which before did runne in aboundance do suddenlie fatle, do not men vse to goe to the fountaine there to know the reason why it faileth. &c. Quod & nunc facere oppor­tot Dei sacerdotes, &c. which (saith he) the Priests of God kee­ping Gods commandements must now do, that if the truth haue wauered or failed in auie thing, we maie returne to the originall of our Lord, and to the tradition of the Gospel, and of the Apostles, that thence maie arise the reason of our doing, from whence the order & originall did first spring. Which way to trie the truth, so long as you do so diligently shun, and take such paines to bring all religion to the touch of mans vncertaine authority, what do you else, but bewray a fearefull and guiltie conscience, that dare not stand to the euidence of Gods word, but in a suite of life and death, saluation and damnation, do willing­ly suffer the true Charters of diuine record to be lost, or at least raked vp in the dust, and bring in old men that can say nothing but by heare-say, nay rather yong men now to tell what they haue heard off, sometime said by old men vp­pon their onely bare heare-say. So might the Iewes haue taken the law from the Scribes and Pharisees mouthes, and haue learned to loue their friends & hate their enemies with Matth. 6. 43. 2 Kings. 22. 8. other Pharisaicall lessons, and let the law of Moses lie in the dust, as it had done before, in the daies of Helkias the Priest. But chuse you whether you will cease your wrangling a­bout mens names or not, and be it knowen to you, that we will search the scriptures, in which alone wee beleeue to Iohn. 5. 39. haue eternall life, and which only beare vnto vs infallible [Page 14] witnes of Christ, and of all true Religion necessarie to saluation.

How beit were your succession any thing worth to the finding out of truth, when or how shall it be agreed, whe­ther Liuus or Clemens succeeded Peter, whether Cletus and Anacletus be one man, or if they be two, which is the first, or which must be put out of the succession, or whether Cle­mens be before them or either of them: for these vncertain­ties are in the highest roundes of this your ladder of succes­sion. Tell vs whether Pope Ioaue haue not made a foule cracke in your succession? or what we shall make of your 30. Schismes, whereof the twentie ninth continued the space of 50 yeares together, first with two Popes at once, then with three, vntil the Councell of Constance remoued them all three, and set vp Martin 5. since your Church representatiue in the councel iudged against them al three, may we not rightly iudge that your succesion was quite broken off, and none of these 3, nor they to whom they suc­ceeded, during that Schisme were true successors of Peter? How euer it be, make your succession as strong as you can, Except Cum successione Episcopatus With the succession of the Chaire they haue receiued Veritatis charisma certū, the vndoub­ted Iren, lib. 4. cap. 43. gift of truth, we make no reckoning of it.

As for your Austen who (you say) conuerted vs English­men, it is well knowen that this Iland had receiued the faith long before Austen was borne in the daies of Kinge Lucius, and euen at that time had true religion in better order & in more sincerity then Austen himself, except there were any more sincerity in his doctrine then in his supersti­tious and vaineglorious ceremonies, vpon which together with your cloysters and dennes, God in his mercie hath brought the confusion of Babel, as appeareth this day, and shall do we trust more and more.

PAPIST.

Out of this reason maie one quicklie learne, that all points of our religiō be most true, as praying to Saints, Purgatory, Pardons, [Page 15] the Real presence, Confession of sinnes & though oach one knowe not howe to defende them, nor perceiue vpon what groundes they stand: for seeing we haue now prooued that our Church is the true Church of Christ, consequently we are to beleeue, that which it teacheth, because she cannot erre in matters of faith: for if shee could, then might we as well be damned being members of the true Church of Christ, as members of the false, and not for a wicked life, but for a wrong beleefe, which cannot be, and to free vs from all such doubtes, Saint Paul affirmeth that the Church is the pil­ler and ground of truth. This ought to be a great comfort to all 1 Tim. 3. 15. vnlearned Catholikes, that cannot enter into the deepe misteries of Christian religion.

PROTESTANT.

No doubt you must needs proue a forcible Reasoner that out of one sophisticall Syllogisme, full of equiuocation as hath beene shewed, & from a reason pretended of the conti­nuance of the Church inuifible, reputation as you say, for the space of 1600. yeares, which by your owne confes­sion will serue the Iewish synagogue as well as your suppo­sed Church, yet as if you had stricken the matter dead, pre­sume out of hand that all is proued. You haue now proued that your Church is the true Church of Christ. They that will bee caried away with such proofes, it skils not greatly of what Church they be. They surely dote vpon the Romish harlot and follow her for blinde loue, and not for reason. But let vs further examine how forcibly you build vpon this san­die foundation. If your Church be the true Church, then all must be beleeued that she teacheth. And there­fore praying to Saints, Purgatory, Pardons, &c. For she cannot erre in matters of faith, were not the Churches of Galathia true Churches? Is not the bringing in of Circum­cision to be ioyned with faith in Christ, as necessary to Gal. 1. 6. saluation, an error in matter of faith? Did not the Ga­lathians erre in that point, in so much that the Apostle re­proues them, as those that had remoued to another Gos­pell? [Page 16] If the members of a true church ought to beleeue all that the church teacheth them, who could blame the Gala­thians in this point: yet Paul spares not to call them foolish.

Againe, were not the Apostles the true Church, yet did they erre euen after Christs resurrection, not onely before the receiuing of the holy Ghost, but after also, and that in matter of faith, before the holy Ghost came downe, they Act. 1. 6. dreamed of restoring the externall kingdome of Israel, and that by Christ. After they had receiued the holy Ghost, Act. 10. 14. Peter iudged some meates vncleane, and was doubtfull of going into the vncircumcised and eating with them vntill he was better informed by an heauenly vision. Neither was this error proper to him alone (and yet had he bene Pa­stor of Pastors, and the highest Bishop in the Church, from whose lippes all truth was to be receiued, how could the Church haue bene free from this error? for as Gregory saith, Epist. lib. 6. epist. 34. Si vnus Episcopus vocatur vniuersalis, vniuersa Ecclesiacorruit, Si vnus vniuersus cadit. That is, If one Bishop be called vniuer­sall, the whole Church is ruinated, if that one vniuersall do fall,) but common to all the rest of the Apostles, as appeareth both in that he was called to an account before the Apo­stles Act. 11. 3. and the Church, for entring in vnto Cornelius, and al­leaging his warrant both by vision and speciall oracle sa­tisfied them, so as they now first came to discerne that God vnto the Gentiles also had graunted repentance vnto life, and Vers. 18. therefore held their peace and glorified God, and also in that when some came from Iames, he withdrew himselfe from Gal. 2. 12. the Gentiles, which he would not haue done, if the true Church had not as then bene vnsetled in this point of faith. That which befell vnto the Apostolike church, may much more befall vnto the church of Rome, as the like hath done vnto many other churches, and therefore it follows not be­cause the church of Rome was once the true church, that ei­ther it cannot erre, or must needs continue the true church still. Such braggers as you, were those Rabbies that con­spired against Ieremie, presuming as you do, that the law should not perish from the Priest, nor counsell from the wise nor Ier. 18. v. 18. the word from the Prophets, that is, that the church could not [Page 17] erre; but the Lord by Ezechiel tels them that build vpō that false principle, that when they shall come to seeke a vision of the Prophets, then they shall find that by the iust iudgment of Ezek. 7. ver. 6 God, the law shal perish from the Priest, and councel frō the An­cient. Which at this day they all find, who feed vpon the ly­ing vanities of Popish visions, being deluded by the pain­ted vizard of the Church, which you haue put vpon your faces. Wherefore if you could proue your Church the true Church, which you can neuer do, yet should you stil come to short of prouing that you stand so much in need of, that your Church cannot erre, and therefore, Praying to Saints, Purgatorie, Pardons, &c. must be beleeued, because your Church teacheth them. God grant that your seduced Cli­ents, Iere. 2. 13. may leaue these broken pits that will hold no water, and haue recourse to the fountaine of liuing waters, the holy scripture, thereby to trie euerie spirit, whether it be of God or no, and not blindly beleeue euery spirit that saith Iohn. 4. 1. it is, of God.

Yea but say you, If the Church maie erre in faith, then might wee aswell be damned being members of the true Church, as of the false, & that not for a wicked life, but for a wrong faith, which cannot be. First you shewe of what force all your proofes are, that you are faine so shamelesly to beg that without a­ny proofe, which all men know to be most false: for is it so strange to you that a mēber of a true visible church may be dāned euen for matter of wrong beliefe? Are al the mem­bers of euery true visible Churhc, true and proper mem­bers, of the mysticall body of Christ? Know you not that Saint Paul saith to Galathians? Behold I Paul say vnto e­uerie men that is circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing, yee are abolished from Christ, whosoeuer are iustified by the law, yee are fallen from grace. And yet they to whom he spake, were members of a true visible Church. Therefore the members of a true visible Church may be damned for a wrong be­liefe.

Secondly, albiet the true visible Churches may erre dānably, as the church of the Iewes, in condemning Christ, the Arrians in denying his eternall Godhead, yet the true [Page 18] Catholike Church, which is the body of Christ, cannot erre damnably, nor any true member thereof, and yet eue­ry member of the militant Church may erre, but not dam­nably, for euery error is not damnable, no not in matter of faith, some build vpon the foundation Timber, hay, and stuble, 1 Cor. 3. 12. &c. so long as they build vpon the foundation, they themselues shall be saued, but shall suffer losse of their worke, by the fiery triall of Gods word. Confessing therefore the infir­mity and ignorance euen of the true members of the true Catholike Church in this flesh, which is such no one of them can haue immunity from error, yet it will not followe that any true member of the Catholike Church can be dam­ned, and yet he may beleeue amisse in some points of faith, God open the eies of the blinde, that they may discerne your dangerous and damnable sleight. You would haue all your disciples hold themselues contented only with the Coliars faith, & to beleeueth. as the Church beleeueth, althogh they know not what the Church beleeueth. To the intent you may bewitch them, this is your sorcerie, you tell them the Church cannot erre, meaning your Romish church, & therfore they may securly beleeue whatsoeuer you bid thē, & so doing shall vndoubtedly be saued. A cōpendious Re­ligion promising vnto men saluation. without taking any paines to know the truth of God, to search the scriptures, to trie the spirits, and to discerne of the true faith. But what saith the scripture? He that beleeueth and is baptized shall be saued, he that beleeueth not, shall be damned. And what must Mark. 16. 16. they beleeue that shall be saued? That which the Apostles teach, & what must the Apostles teach? All that Christ com­manded. Then must euery beleeuer discerne the truth of his Matth. 28. 20. faith by the vndoubted commandement of Christ, that he may haue vndoubted comfort of his owne saluation. Men will not take money for currant before they haue tried it by touch and weight, and will any be so desperatly foolish, as to beleeue euery spirit, and receiue euery doctrine not try­ing by the touch of scriptures, and the weights of Gods sanctuarie, whether it be of God or no?

Yea but S. Paul affirmeth that the Church is the pillar & [Page 19] ground of truth. And this ought to be a great comfort to all vn [...]earned Catholikes. It ought so indeede, and to the learned too, that the Oracles of God are committed to his Church, and there onely the sheepe of God may heare the voice of their Shepheard. Howbeit the vnlearned Catholiks shall be much abused if they suppose this Church to be the suppo­sed Church of Rome, or thinke that truth is pinned vpon a­ny Iohn. 10. 27. one churches sleeue, or is indefinitly committed to the whole Church, without submission to the trial of scriptures. What is truth, the scriptures onely shew, where that truth is preserued and taught, there is the true Church: For the Church is the pillar & ground of truth. By the scriptures ther­fore all true Catholikes must learn to know the true church, and receiue the truth of the scriptures from the mouth and by the ministrie of the church, but not vpon the bare and onely cred it of the church: For to omit Theophilact who in­terpreteth truth in this place, as opposit to Iewish shadows, which sense may very well be followed, and so you haue no shew of helpe here. Chrysostome vpon the place giueth this sense, Hoc est enim quod fidem continet ac praedicationem [...], quippe verit as Ecclesiae & columna & firma [...]entum est: This is that which keepeth faith and preaching, for truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church. Where you see the church ministe­rially keepeth faith, and preacheth the word, as the Pyramis in Paris did keepe the memorie of your Iesuitical parricide, but in a nother sense the truth by Chrysostoms iudgmēt is the pillar and firmament of the Church. And Dyonisius Carthu­sianus, Est (que) columna & firmamentum verit atis, id est, verit atem Euangelicam fortiter portat &c. The pillar and ground of truth (saith he) that is, it doth strōgly beare the truth of the gospel note, the truth of the Gospel, which the church hath receiued, not a­ny truth inuēted or taught by the church without or beside the Gospell: Therefore out of this place we, thus conclude against you:

• The Church of God is the pillar and ground of truth, that is, bea­reth the truth by the preaching of the Gospel before men.
• The Church of Rome is not the pillar and ground of truth, for it beareth not the [...]ruth before men by the preaching of the Gos­pell, [Page 20] but her [...]ue superstitions Inuentions, besides the Gospell, and contrary to the Gospell, at praier to Saints, Purgatory, Par­dons, Real presence, Eare-shrift &c.
• Therefore the Church of Rome is not the church of God.

PAPIST.

That is the true faith and religion of Christ, which the ancient and learned Fathers tanght & maintained, in the floursshing time of the Primitiue Church, that is within the first 600 yeares next after Christ, and this is so true, that our Aduersaries themselues confesse it. For M. Iewell, sometime of Sarisbury, cried out in this maner, O Gregory, ô Leo, ô Augustine, ô Ambrose, &c, if we be deceiued, you haue deceiued vs. The Church of England In his chaleng. Sermon at Paules crosse. also continueth their memorie in euerie Kalender as it doth of the blessed Apostles, which fauour no question, it would not afford them, if it iudged them Heretikes or false teachers. And as no Pro­testant (I thinke) dare say, that they bee damned in hell for he­reticall or false doctrine: So, most sure I am, that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation upon them that liued so neere Christ, then vpon such as liue now, and be partiall in their owne cause.

PROTESTANT.

The floure of your reasons is now gone, and indeede a floure, for the bright beames of truth, shining frō the Sunne of righteousnesse, in the firmament of his word, hath dim­med the grace and defaced the beautie of this your vaine & best reason.

The second reason comming to rescue the former, at vn­awares, thinking to smite his enemie, wounded his fellowe to the heart: For if the long continued pompe of your sup­posed Church be proofe enough that yours for sooth is the true Church, and if the priuiledge of the true church which you chalenge to yours be, that it cannot erre, and conse­quently we are to beleeue what your Church teacheth, [Page 21] what needed you then to haue abated this last 1000 yeares and to appeale to the flourishing time of the Primitiue church within the first 600 years? Surely this is a plaine cō ­fession against your selues, that your long cōtinued Church comes much short in dignity, credit and authority of those 600 yeares. Else why do you not rest contented with your owne testimony, as being the presēt Oracle of the church, but are faine to borrowe proofe of the Primitiue Church, considering that if long continuance be the matter, though your persons be yonger and your age but of yesterday, yet by the addition of so many yeares, your Church hath a grauer head, and surely more wrinckles in her face, then in those former times she had; If therefore the ancienter testi­monies do more strōgly proue the truth, then is theremore certain trial of truth to be fetcht frō the early beginnings of the church, then frō the long continued & doating age, (as plainly appeareth) of your Church. And surely so did the Fathers within those 600 yeares, they prooued their doc­trines, and maintained euery truth, not by the face of long time, but by the authority of the first times, wherein Christ and his Apostles, vndoubtedly taught the truth, and by vn­doubted records of diuine inspiration, that is the holie scriptures, commended the same to all posterity. Augustine. Epist. 19. ad Hieron. Ego solis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur &c. I haue learned to yeeld only to those books of scripture, which are now called Canonical, that feare & heuer, that I firmely beleeue no author of thē in writing to haue cōmitted anie error, others I so reade, that how holie or learned soeuer they be, I do not therefore thinke a matter to bee true, because they so thought, but because they were able to perswade me, either by those canonical authors, or by probable reason, that it swarneth not from truth. And therefore ad Vincentium Donatist. Epist. 48. N [...]l [...] contra diuina testimonia &c. Haue no will or desire out of the wri­tings of Bishops togather cauils against the diuine testimonies, first because this kind of writings is distinguished from the cannon, &c. But let vs see your reason.

That is the true faith, which the ancient and learned Fathers taught in the first 600 yeares. [Page 22] But they were of our religion and not of the Protestants: Therefore ours is the true faith and not the Protestants.

First, is your Proposition vniuersall or indefinite? If you say, The ancient and learned Fathers taught the true faith in all points necessarie to saluation, we will not sticke with you: but if you say that withall they taught nothing swaruing from the true faith, neither can we yeeld it vnto you, neither do the Fathers themselues yeeld it one to another, neither doth any one of them presume to chalenge so much to him self, neither wil your selues (I am sure) generally also affirme. You know the contrary of Tertullian, Cyprian and Origene Augustine did not in all things accord with Ierome nor allow whatsoeuer himselfe had written, and these things are not vnknowne to you, nor vnconfessed by you. Wherefore if you will haue your proposition vniuersally taken, it is false, that whatsoeuer the Fathers taught, is the true faith. If indefi­nitly, then will it fall out to be onely particular of some things, (suppose the most things) that the ancient learned Fathers taught, that they agreed with the true faith. So that if you could proue that your Popish faith, consisting in the points of your nouelties vnknowne to Christ and his Apo­stles, and of your Apostafie from the true faith, did in some points agree with some opinions of the learned Fathers, yet would it not follow that yours is the true faith, vnlesse you could manifestly proue that the Fathers therein held the true faith: For your Popish faith partly hath an apish imi­tation of some outworne rites of ancient times, as Vnctions, Exorcismes, &c. partly carcheth hold of some of their errors, as prayer for the dead, partly proceedeth on boldly to affirme of those things whereof they spake doubtfully, as Purgatory, partly peruerteth and abuseth their words against their meanings, sometime taking that literally which they meant tropically, as Sacrifice, Oblation, Priest, Altar, &c. some­time wresting their words from that good sense which they beare by proportion of their writings, to that bad and ab­surd sense, which since you haue violently drawne them to, as Merit, Poenitentiam agere, Confession, Satisfaction, &c.

Contrariwise the Protestants religion is in substance the [Page 23] same which the ancient learned Fathers taught, wherein the Protestants therefore follow them, because they haue fol­lowed the Scriptures, as hath bene often mainteined, pro­ued and demonstrated to your stopped eares and hardened hearts.

Briefly, the Proposition vniuersally vnderstood is false. The Assumption vniuersally vnderstood of all their faith and religion is false of your Popish faith. Therefore the con­clusion followes not.

But let vs see how strongly, or rather straungely, you proue your Proposition. First, you say it is so true that your aduersaries confesse it: for M. Iewell sometime of Sarisburie, &c. That godly and learned Bishop was confident, that you could not bring any one sufficient sentence out of any Fa­ther or Councell, for the space of 600. yeares after Christ, to proue any of those points named in that chalenge, not that he made Fathers or Councels the rule of his faith, but rather affirmeth with Augustine, Sancta Scriptura nostrae doctrinae re­gulam De bono viduit. cap. 1. The holy scrip­ture pitcheth the rule of our doctrine. Rom. 1. 16. figit; and if he had found either in Fathers or Coun­cels any thing swaruing from this rule, he would haue for­saken them and cleaued to the Scriptures, as he hath told you in his learned Apologie. We know that the Gospell of Ie­sus Christ is the power of God vnto saluation, and that therein con­sisteth eternall life. And as Paul warneth vs, we do not heare, no Gal. 1. 8.not an Angel of God, though he come from heauen, if he go about to pull vs from any part of this Doctrine.

Secondly, (you say) the Church of England continueth their memorie in the Kalendar as it doth of the blessed Apostles, &c. What meane you so to ouer-reach? doth the Church of En­gland put no difference between them and the Apostles? for so much you would imply, and must, or else it comes too short of your purpose. The Church of England preserueth their memorie as of godly and painefull men, that bestowed themselues to serue the Church of God, but yet it doth not lift them aboue the degree of men, and therefore doth not exempt them from erring, nor their writings from errors, which immunitie is proper to the Scriptures inspired of God, and cannot be ascribed to any writings of men neuer [Page 24] so godly or learned, so long as they are written onely by a pri [...]at spirit. Neither is euery teacher that faileth in some point of truth to be condemned as a false teacher, much lesse as an heretike: and therefore it may be doubted and denied, that all that the Fathers of those times haue written is true, and yet they not reputed either as heretikes or false teachers.

Thirdly, you say, No Protestant (you thinke) dare say, that they are damned in hell. No verily, and yet you, picking out those errors which vnto them were veniall, because they built vpon the foundation, which is Iesus Christ alone, and making them principles of your faith and religion, and lay­ing them indeed as another foundation besides Christ, may be damned in so doing. except you repent.

Fourthly, Most sure (you say) you are that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ, theu vpon such as liue now, and are partiall in their owne cause. Men of reason in matters of reason, may relie vpon men. But men of faith in matters of saluation, wil relie only vpon Christ, the Author, finisher and foundation of our faith, the Heb. 12. 2, 1 Cor. 3. 11. Heb. 2 10. 1 Tim. 2. 5. Act. 7. 37. Iohn. 14. 6. Prince and Mediat or of our saluation, the only undoubted Pro­phet and teacher of the true and vndoubted way vnto eternall life, in a word, the onely way, the onely truth, the onely life.

But see with what cunning you deale. Your simple sheepe must relie their saluation vpon those Fathers; who those Fathers were, what they wrote, and how they shall vnder­stand them you must be their interpreters. So in effect, they must relie their saluation vpon you, which is against your owne rule. For you liue now and are iustly to be supposed partiall in your owne cause.

Againe, in this your comparison of persons, vpon whom we ought rather to relie our faith, marke how slily you shut out Christ and his word, and seeke to cast an imputation v­pon the Protestants, that they teach men to rely their faith vpon them, which is as far from them, as it is from you to teach your Disciples to relie their faith vpon Christ and his word. No, no, we counsell the faithfull, as Christ our Ma­ster doth, to search the Scriptures, and with the Apostle to Iohn. 5. 39. [Page 25] build their faith vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Eph, 2. 20. whereof Iesus Christ is the head and corner stone.

Lastly, God open your eies to acknowledge the strength of truth, which out of your owne mouth, beareth wit­nes against your selfe, you say that men ought rather to relie their saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ. Ought not then all faithfull men most of all to relie their saluation vp­pon them that liued neerest vnto Christ? And who li­ued neerer him then the holie Apostles and Euangelistes? Or what writinges came more immediatly from him then theirs? especially considering that these were chosen by him selfe, to be his witnesses vnto all the ends of the world, and Act. 1. 8. Eph. 4. 13 vnto the end of the world by the writings inspired of God.

Wherefore that you may see how willing we are to ac­corde with you in the truth, we confesse and graunt that faithfull men ought to relie their saluation rather vpon Psal. 19. 4. Rom. 10. 18. those that saw the Lord Iesus Christ, and were his witnes­ses, and haue stretched out the line of their writinges to the worlds end, thē vpon any, or all that haue beene since whe­ther they be Councels, Popes, Bishops or Doctors, of what place, holines or learning soeuer.

Thus forcibly haue you proued your Proposition, that whatsoeuer the fathers of the first 600. years wrot is thetrue faith: for that must be the extent of your proposition or else it will not serue your turne, the best and strongest part of your proofe. which you haue set in the last place, makes most against your selfe, as hath bin shewed.

Now then let vs come to your Assumption.

PAPIST.

But as certaine it is, that they were of our religion, and not of the Protestants, which is so euident, that no man which peruseth their works can make anie doubt thereof, and to giue an instance, Saint Austen that liued 1200. yeares agoe, and was so wonder­full for learning, that happilie since the Apostles time the world had neuer his like: one whome the Protestantes also soeme most to admire and like of, and this ancient, holie, and learned [Page 26] Father beleeued and taught them, yea and the whole Church of his time, a [...] we beleeue & teach now. If any mā make doubt hereof let him read his 22. book and 8. chap. De ciuitate Dei, & he shal find as much as I affirme, concerning prayer to Saints, reuerence to Relikes, and Pilgrimage to holie places, three of the most odious points, as they thinke, in all our religion.

PROTESTANT.

To proue that the Fathers of the first 600. were of your religion, and not of the Protestants, you tell vs that one of them (S. Augustine) was so. Doth this proue that all were so? Next how proue you that Saint Augustine was so? because (as you pretend) he held some points of your religion, as Praier to Saints, reuerence to Relikes, Pilgrimage to holie places, praier for the dead. Do these points cōprehend al your religi­on? Againe may it not be, that Augustine being a man, erred in some points, and you make choice of those his errors, as most suitable to your religiō, & yet otherwise Augustine cō ­firme the Protestants religion by his testimonie, as indeed he doth,? Such force is in your forcible reasons.

But let vs see how you proue that Augustine was of your religion in the three points aboue named, Praier to Saints, reuerence to relikes, and pilgrimage to holie places? you referre him that doubteth hereof to his 22. booke and 8 chap. De ciuitate Dei. Where, in your sense, we finde not one of these and some not at all. No one word in all that chapter of praying to Satuts, and least as you do, any man should fals­ly so conceiue, Augustine in the 10. chapter following, where he speaketh of the same matter still, giueth this expresse ca­ueat. Nos martiribus nostris non templasicut Dijs &c. We build no temples to our Martyrs, as vnto Gods, but memories (or monu­ments) as vnto dead men, whose spirits liue with God, neither doe we there erect alters, vpon which we may sacrifice to the Martyrs, but we offer sacrifice to God onelie, the Martyrs God, and ours, at the which sacrifice, as men of God, who in his confession haue ouercome the world in their place and order they are named, yet are they not prayed vnto by the Priest that sacrificeth. What [Page 27] could be more plainly spoken against praier to Saints, and who but a Papist would haue alledged Augustine for praier to Saints, who hath so expresly gainesaid it?

Reuerent vse of the Relikes of Martyrs, by honestly laying vp their bones, and continuing their memories, Augustine there acknowledgeth: but of Popish reuerence to Relikes, by kneeling, kissing or trust in them, Augustin hath not a syl­lable, nay he sheweth plainly in the last words of that chap that the faith and trust of Christian was not in the Martyrs, but in Christ, for whom the Martyrs, and namelie Stephen, shed his bloud. Of resorting to the memories of Martyrs, Augustine there speaketh, but in what sort? It pleased God for confir­mation of that faith, wherein the Martyrs died, at their me­mories to do many miracles, where God lifted vp the signe of his power, thither the faithfull resorted, what is this to your Popish Pilgrimage, to Relikes & Shrines, whereof there is now no certainty whose they were, nor any miracles wrought by the power of God. where they are, and if the true Relikes of true Martyrs were there yet to suppose more holines there, or more ready acceptāce with God, or accesse vnto him there, then in other places, is contrary to the ex­presse rule of our Sauiour Christ in the 4. of Iohn. wherefore Iohn. 4. 21. 23. the cause of such resort now ceassing, and being indeed not needfull (as Augustine in the entrance of that chapter saith, that before the world did beleeue, Miracles were necessarie, that the worlde might beleeue, but now whosoeuer inquireth after strange wonders that he maie beleeue, is himselfe a strange wonder who when the world beleeueth, himselfe beleeueth not.) The cause I say ceasing the effect ceaseth, as when God left to sende downe Manna, the people gaue ouer looking after it, nei­ther did the godly Israelites looke any longer to the brasen serpent, then while it was erected by Gods appoint­ment for them to looke on that they might bee healed: To conclude, for Prayer to Saints, reuorence to Relikes, Po­pish Ios. 5. 12. pilgrimage to holy places, in your sense, and as you practise them, Augustin. in al that chapter hath not one word. Let Numb. 21. 8 9. vs now see how happie you are in the rest that speede so ill in these.

PAPIST.

Againe the cause is so cleere that our Aduersaries do confesse it, as might be shewed in manie questions, two or three will I speake of. Caluine cannot denie but that blessed Monica, S. Augustines Inst. lib. 3. cap. 5. Sec. 10. mother desired to haue her soule praied for, & that her son satisfied her request accordingly. These be his words, Augustine in his book of Cōfessions telleth how that his mother Monica earnestly reque­sted to be remembred at the Altar, at such times as the mysteries were in celebrating: a doating request, which her sonne did not examine according to the rule of Scripture: and a little before in the same place thus: whereas my aduersaries (quoth he) obiect a­gainst me, that it was a receiued custome 1300. yeares past, to pray for the deade. I likewise demande of them, what worde of God, what reuelation, what example they had so to do, out of which words we see how hee confesseth, that the Primitiue Church beleeued as we do about Praier for the dead, which is the thing that here I intend to proue. And though malapertlie he contem­neth them all, as though forsooth they wanted the word of God, yet what man of reason and iudgment can thinke that they lacked suf­ficient warrant for that their beleefe and common practise what­soeuer he saith to the contrarie.

PROTESTANT.

Your Aduersaries do confesse that Augustine did fauour & allow some kind of praier for the dead, but your aduersaries deny that Augustine allowed praier for the dead, as now the Popish Church doth hold and teach it: For first touching Purgatory, Augustine resolueth not certainly whether there be any or no, the summe of that he saith, comes to no more De ciu. Dei. lib. 21. cap. 26. then this. I reproue it not, because peraduenture it is true, or if he do resolue any thing it is quite against it, as there is no middle place for anie, that he may be any where but with the diuel, De pen. merit. & remiss. that is, not with Christ. Againe, The first place the faith of Catho­likes by diuine authoritie beleeueth to be the kingdome of heauen. The second hel. Of any third we are vtterly ignorant, nay, we cānot Hypognost. lib. 5 find it in the holie scriptures, your popish praiers for the dead, supposing that there is a Purgatorie, either Augustines praier [Page 29] for the dead, was another matter then your Popish praier, to wit, a well wishing to them out of the charity of the liuing, not amending the condition of the dead, but testifying the hope that the liuing faithfull haue of that mercy which the dead in the Lord find with him expressed by this wishing praier, so he affirmeth in his praier for his mother Monica. And I beleeue that thou hast alreadie done that which I aske of Conses. lib. 9. cap. 13. thee, but o Lord, approue the voluntaries (or vvishes) of my mouth: or else Augustine had no better resolutiō touching this pray­er then he had touching Purgatorie, which is none at all, as appeared by the slender proofe he makes thereof, aledging only the book of Macchabees. not allowed of the auncients for Canonical scripture & as not greatly trusting to that flying De cura prom [...]r. cap. to the authority of long continued custome, and he is so doubtfull of the matter, that he dare not take vpon him to define of what nature the sins are which by the praiers of the liuing are remitted to the dead, what those sins are, saith he which so hinder cōming to the kingdom of heauen, that yet through the merits of their holy frends they obtaine pardon after death, it is most hard to find, most dangerous to define. I surely euen vntill this time, although I haue taken paines enough about it, yet could neuer De ciui. Dei. lib. 21. cap. 27. attaine to search it out Secondly Augustine so praieth for his mother Monica, that yet he doubreth not that she in her life time obtayned remission of all her sins, by the bloud of Christ, dispēsed to her waiting dailie at his Altar, he therefore praieth only that it may be vnto her according to her faith, that she may be preserued frō the powers of darknes, & receiue the 1 Pet. 1. 9. end of her faith the saluation of her soule, that is, he praieth for her consūmation in the kingdome of God, & of Christ. For Augustine himselfe confesseth. Therefore no new merits are purchased for the deade, when their friends do anie good for them, but these things are recompensed to their former merits. De verb. Apost. Ser. 32 What is this to Popish praier for the gaole deliuery of souls that are in the pains of Purgatory, of whō you fain that many are the sooner deliuered by your lip-labors, a deuise of late times, to improue the Popes reuenues, and to enrich Cloy­sters and idle bellies.

Lastly, Augustine himselfe, being so vnsetled in the [Page 30] matter of Prayer for the dead, that he is faine to bring strange interpretations of the vse of Prayer, and other cha­rities for the dead. For these being generally done for all the dead, he saith, that For those that are very good, they are thankesgiuings, for those that are very euill, although they be no helpe to them, yet are they comforts to the liuing, and yet after that he saith, they auaile to make their paines lighter, and their damnation more tolerable, which if it be so, is some helpe: for the middle sort they are propitiations, that is, supplicatorie praiers for pardon of their sinnes, which yet speaking of his mother Monica, he saith, she had in her life time. And to salue the Confes. lib. 9. cap. 13. 2. Cor. 5. 10. Scripture which saith, that euery one shall receiue according to that he hath done in his life, he is faine to say, that these in their life time deserued to haue benefit by the Churches prayers, which what it is else, but remission of sinnes? Augustine, I say, being thus inwrapped in vncertainties, maruaile you that Caluine said it was anile votum, &c. an old womans desire, which her sonne did not examine by the rule of Scripture, but of a naturall affection, was desirous to approue vnto others? Where re­solution wanted in the matter there could be no sufficient warrant, whatsoeuer you say to the contrary.

PAPIST.

About particular and auricular confession of sinnes, we haue also the authoritie of antiquity, as the same Caluine informeth Inst. lib. 3. cap. 4. sec. 7. Auricular confession ancient. vs. I maruaile (quoth he) with what face they dare contend, that the confession whereof they speake, was ordained by Gods law, the vse whereof I confesse was passing auncient, but easily can I proue that in old time it was free. Nay then, with what face dare he deny that to be ordained by Gods law? For what man of reason can thinke that antiquitie would haue vsed it, had it not descen­ded from Christ and his Apostles, or what power could haue brought it into the Church, it being so contrarie to our proude na­ture, had not the Sonne of God himselfe planted that doctrine? But it was free in old time, saith he. What then? For do we not know that the Communion was so likewise in olde time? If then the Church of England may make a law, to bind men once in the yeare [Page 31] to the Communion, may not the Catholike Church do the like for confession? Still Caluine giueth vs the ancient Fathers, but re­serueth the Scriptures for himselfe, we take what be granteth, but deny what he requireth.

PROTESTANT.

Confession of some particular sinnes, specially such as lay heauie vpon the conscience (but not of euery particu­lar sinne with euery circumstance, and that to euery parish priest in secret, which is your popish eare-shrift) such con­fession, I say, to a Priest by speciall order of the Churches appointed thereunto, Caluine doth confesse, and well may, to be very ancient, and yet maintaine popish eare-thrift to be very yong as receiuing his first authoritie from the La­terane councell vnder Innocentius 3. in the yeare of our Lord 1215. as Caluine in the same place telleth you. But you aske with what face be dare that it was ordained by Gods law? For (you say) what man of reason can thinke that antiquitie would haue vsed it, had it not descended from Christ and his Apo­stles? Tertullian whom you will not deny to be a man of reason, though he shew the antiquitie of offerings for the De Coron, milit. dead, yet confesseth there is no Scripture for it. Therefore your forcible reason hath neither force nor grace, when you thus conclude. Antiquitie vsed confession of particular sinnes to a Priest: Therefore it was ordained by Gods law. Besides doth not M. Caluine proue vnto you that antiquitie held it not to be of diuine institution? for otherwise Nectarias Bishop of Constantinople, would not haue abrogated it for the abuse of it, neither would Chrysostome after him, haue giuen so much li­berty from such confession as he doth, as he is alleaged by M. Caluine in the next section to that you mention. See Inft. lib. 3. cap. 4. Sec. 8. therefore with what face you chalenge him in that wherein he bringeth so sufficient proofe. The proofe by him there alleaged, I set not downe at large, because, if you will, you may as easily finde them set downe by him, as you could find this peece by you alleaged.

But whether your corner-shrift be of that Antiquity that [Page 32] you pretend, if Caluins proofes perswade you not, see what Beatus Rhenanus writeth. Moreouer for no other cause haue we here vsed the testimonies of manie, then to this end, that no man Arg [...], in Ter­tul. lib. de p [...]ni­tent. should maruaile that Tertullian hath spoken nothing of this cor­ner or secret confession of sinnes committed, which at that time was vtterly vnknowen. And in another place, in his book De poeni­tentia, Admonit, de Tertul, dogmat. he mentioneth onlie publike confession: And againe, Not onlie in Tertullian, but euen in those which liued manie ages af­ter, there is onelie mention of publike pennance and confession. If it had descended from Christ and his Apostles, it could not haue beene so earely and so long out of vse. Such is the anti­quity of your Eareshri [...]t.

Your next reason to deriue it frō Christ and his Apostles is, because it being a thing so cōtrary to our proud nature, had not the Son of God himselfe planted the doctrine, no power could haue brought it into the Church. Is it not contrary to the high e­state of Kings that are in Gods steed vpon earth, to submit their scepters to the Pope of Rome, to lie downe for him to treade on their neckes, to kisse his foote, and his Legates knee, to hold his stirrope, to leade his horse by the bridle, and go on foote by him, to suffer him to pill and poll their countries by his prouisions, dismes, annates, and such other exactions, and to sequ [...]ster out of their hands, spiritual cau­ses and persons and to draw them to the Court of Rome? The tyranny of the Pope of Rome hath brought these won­ders to passe: will you thereof conclude, that the sonne of God hath planted these tyrānies [...] so may you conclude for 1 King. 18. 18. Baals Priests; it is a thing so contrary to the tender nature of man, for men to gash and launce their owne flesh, that no power could haue brought it into vse, if God himselfe had not planted it. So may you conclude, for those that cau­sed 2 King. 23. 10. their sons and daughters to passe through the fire vnto Mo [...]ech, that no power could haue brought them to it, it being so contrary to naturall piety, if God himselfe had not planted it. The scripture hath told vs what Antichrist shal do. He shal make all both smal and great, rich and poore free Apoc. 1 [...]. 1 [...]. Apoc. 17. 3. and bond, to receiue his marke in their right hand or in their fore­heads, and the Kings of the earth shall giue thier power and autho­ritie [Page 33] to the beast. In a word, superstitiō hath caried idolaters to crueltie, against their owne bodies and flesh: foolish pro­digality of their owne substance base seruility in their owne persons, and extreame fury in their minds and senses, as the idolatries of the Gentiles do aboundantly proue.

Now to that which Caluine saith, in old time it was free, when you cannot deny it, which is sufficient to conuince the tyranny of your Romish torturing shrift, you say, Do we not know that the communion was so in old time? you may know that the Church in old time did celebrate the Lords supper on euery Lords day, as for the people they did not require them all of necessity to receiue euery day, yet ap­pointed them to receiue at least at the Natiuity of our Lord, at Easter and Pentecost, as appeareth in Concil. Agathe [...]s. alleadged De Consecrat. dist. 2. cap. seculares. Not thereby exempting them to receiue no oftner, but exhorting them to receiue often; and yet prouiding that at least they should receiue at some times. What sopln strie is this, because at o­ther times of the yeare they were free to chuse at what time besides the three named they would communicate, so they did all communicate then, therefore the communion was in old time free, as if the Church required no man at any time to receiue the communion? Thus wily you are to be­guile your selfe, and those that will be led by you. Christ left it not free for Christians to communicate or not to com­municate, neither did the Church of old time so obserue it. Christ left it free for men to confesse in the eare of a Priest, or not to confesse, and the Church of old time so obserued it. Will any man now say, that the communion in old time was so free as auricular confession was? wherefore although the Church of England treading in the steps of the ancient Church, may make a lawe to bind men to the communion, three times in the yeare, yet may not any Church make the like lawe, for your auricular confession vnlesse they can shewe as good warrant for the institution thereof, as they can for the institution of the Lords supper. By the way, let be here obserued that you thus wrangling against Cal­uine to make a shew as if Christ himselfe and his Apostles [Page 34] had planted [...]urioular confession, bring not one worde of Scripture to proue it.

PAPIST.

Concerning also the sacrifice of the Altar, and the Real pre­sence (no small pointr) we haue antiquitre on our side: For S [...]int Austen is therein so plaine in his Manuel, that one Thomas Ro­gers, an English man, who hath translated that booke, is inforced to alter one whole Chapter, to make the holy Doctor against his wil, Chapter. 11. Printed by Peter Short. 15 97. to agree with their doctrine. Another chapter there is (quoth he) though not clean left out, yet applied frō an ill to a good purpose, as the 11. chapter, where that which was spoken of the sacrifice of the Altar, is applied vnto our sacrifice of thankesgiuing, or of the Real & car [...]lpresence of Christ, vnto his spiritual being at the cō ­munion. Thus we b [...]e. S. Austen of our opiniō, [...] our enemie cōfes­eth, and so consequentlie the rest of the Fathers: For no reason [...] [...]one vs to thinke that he did in so important a matter dissent from all other of his time. Manie more questions might he touch­ed, vvherein they grant vs venerable antiquitie; but these few be­ing verie weightie, may suffice for all such as he desirous of truth and saluation of their soules.

PROTESTANT.

What Maister Rogers hath done in translating Augustines Manuell, and namely the eleuenth chapter, I know not, be­cause I haue not his booke, but sure I am, he needed not al­ter or decline one worde there writen by Augustine, for feare to giue any countenance to Popish sacrifice or carnall presence. All that Augustine hath here in shew to serue your turne, is that he calleth the Lords supper, Mirabile & caleste sacrificium, a wonderfull and heauenlie sacrifice. But what mea­neth he by the terme sacrifice? himselfe there interpreteth, namely that Christ ordeined it to be offered in commemora­tionem mortis & passionis, for a remembrance, not for a repetiti­on of his death and passion. Likewise in other places he spea­keth to the same purpose, as cont. Faust. lib. 20. cap. 21. Hu­ius [Page 35] sacrificis caro & sanguis &c. The flesh and bloud of this sacri­fice before the comming of Christ was promised by sacrifices of resemblance, in his passion it was deliuered or rendred by the truth it selfe, but after the ascention of Christ, it is celebrated by the sacrament of remembrance, and Epist. 23. he saith, that Christ is offered vp in the sacrament, for the similitude betweene the sacra­ment and the thing whereof it is a sacrament, that is, the offering of Christ, and generally of euery sacrifice else where he saith, The visible sacrifice is asacrament, that is, an holie signe of the in­visible De Ciu. Dei. lib. 10 cap. 5. sacrifice. And as he is aleaged, De Consecra. Dist. 2. cap. Hoc est. The offering of the flesh, which is done by the Priests hands, is called Christs passion, death, crucifying, not in truth of the thing, but in a signifying mystoris. And the glosse vpon that chapter in the word Calestis, Heauonlic, that is, the heauenlie sacrament which trulie representeth Christs flesh, is called Christs bodie, but improperlie: wherefore it is called after the sort thereof, but not in truth of the thing, but in a signifying mysterie: So as the meaning is, It is called the bodie of Christ, that is, it signifieth. And in a word, because you bite so hard vpon the word Sa­crifice, wheresoeuer you finde it, in Augustine or others, let Augustine himselfe interprete what force that word hath, & how it is to be taken, A true sacrifice (saith he) is euerie worke which is done, that by a holie felowship we may cleaue fast to God, De Ciu. Del. lib. 10. cap. 6. to wit, referred to that end of good, by which we maie truelie be blessed. Which in the end of that chapter he applieth to the sacrament. This is the sacrifice of Christians, we being manie are one bodie in Christ, vvhich also the Church in the sacrament of the Altar knovven to the faithfull doth frequentlie obserue. Thus haue you no helpe from Augustine, for your grosse opinion of carnall presence, and for your Popish sacrifice, and con­sequently by your owne forcible reason, from none of the rest of the Fathers, for no reason, as you say, can moue vsto thinke that he did in so important a matter dissent from all others of his time. Now therefore out of the examination of those fewe questions, let all such as be desirous of truth and salution of their soules, discerne what helpe you haue from venerable antiquitie for your Popish and Ro­mish Superstition.

The third reason.

Sundrie points of our Religion generallie misl [...]ked by our ad­n [...]rsartes, befor all that true, according to their owne principles, and consequentlie agreeable to sacred Scripture, this though it seeme strange, yet is i [...] thus plainlie proued. In their communion booke authorised by act of Parliament we finde prescribed hovv the sicke person ought to make a speciall confession of his sins to the In the visitation of the sicke, spe­cial confession. Priest, and it vvill not helpe them to saie that they are not bound to confesse al thir sins, but such only as do trouble their cōscience. for vvhat if all that come to minde do trouble them, as vve thinke all should, seing all according to their doctrine, be mortall and dam­nable. And besides gladlie vvould I knovv that text of Scripture, vvhich commandeth the confession of some sinnes and not of all let them name the place. Secondlie. vve find there also prescribed, how after confession the Priest must absolue him in this maner, Our Lord Iesus Christ, &c. and by his authoritie committed to Absolution from sinnes. me, I absolue thee from all thy sinnes, In the name of the Fa­ther, and of the Sonne, and of the holy Ghost. What vvords for the Priests absolution can be wished more plaine, being the same in English vvhich in Latine be vsed in the Catholike Church.

PROTESTANT.

No doubt you were put to your shifts when out of Pro­testāt principles, you would take in hand to proue the truth of Popish religion, which either you do to spende some time in idle talke to no purpose, or else you must needes a­scribe the credit of truth to Protestant principles: for thus your reason must be framed.

VVhatsoeuer agreeth vvith the Protestant principles, is true: Sundry points of Pop [...]sh religion agree vvith Protestant principles: Therefore sundr [...]e points of Popish religion are true.

We thanke you for yeelding true witnes to the Protes­tant religion, and yet we thanke you not much, for sure it was against your will, and was onely vpon some hope to countenance Poperie by the meanes. Againe, see another [Page 37] reason of your owne making for the truth of Protestant re­ligion. Sundrie points of our religion are true, according to the Protestāt principles, and consequently agreeable to sacred scripture Bring your owne reason into forme will it not be this?

VVhatsoeuer is true according to Protestant principles, is agree­able to sacred scriptures;

Sundrie points of Poperie are true according to Protestant prin­ciples:

Therefore they are agreeable to sacred scriptures.

We thanke you the second time, for confessing so cleerly that the principles of Protestant religion are agreeable to sacred scriptures. And in kindnesse towards you for your double testimony so frankly affourded for the truth of Pro­testant religion, wee are bounde to yeelde thus much vnto you, that if any point of Poperie be true according to the principles of our religion, then surely it is agreeable to sa­cred scriptures: For surely all the principles of Protestant religion are agreeable to sacred scripture, as very ingeni­ously you haue confessed, and I hope will not reuoke.

But indeede strange it were, as out of a faint heart you confesse that any point of Popery should be true according to Protestant principles, and therefore doubtles you are out of hope to proue any point of Poperie true by that meanes.

Let vs see then what be the points Our Communion booke vvould haue the sicke person visited to make a speciall confession of he feele his conscience troubled vvith any vveightie matter, and vvhen he hath so done, vvilleth the Priest to absolue him by the authori [...]e of Christ. What of all this? Is this popish Eare­shrift? the booke saith a speciall, not an auricular confessi­on. Secondly doth the booke set the sicke mans conscience vpon the rack to reueale to the Priest all his sinnes by num­ber with the time, place, and manner, as without which he cannot be saued? you finde no such matter there; onely the Church giues him aduise for the ease of his conscience, to vnburthen himselfe by confession of those sinnes, which at that time trouble his conscience. Thirdly if no sinne at that time trouble his conscience he is not willed to make any [Page 38] confession; and if any sinne hath troubled his conscience in former time, if by confessing the same to any faithfull Chri­stian brother, he haue receiued comfort to the peace of his conscience before the Priest come to visite him, he is not in­snared with any scruple of conscience, that except he con­fesse it to the Priest he cannot be forgiuen.

You obiect, First what if all his sinnes that come to minde trouble his conscience, as you thinke all shoulde, seeing according to our doctrine all be mortall and damnable. I answere, what if they do not trouble his conscience? then doth our booke re­quire no confession at his hands, wheras all must of necessi­ty come to your Popish shrift, whether their consciences be troubled or no. And by the way, all men may see what peace of conscience Popery breeds, that leaues men vnder the torture of an accusing conscience for all the sinnes they can remember, and that euen in the howre of death. The ho­ly Apostle Saint Paul, 1. Tim. 1. 13. remembreth that in former time he had beene a blasphemer, a persecutor, and oppressor, yet was not his conscience troubled at this time: for he addeth presently that hee was receiued to mercie. It could not be that he should apprehend and applie to him­selfe the mercie of God, forgiuing his sinnes, and haue his conscience in regard of those sinnes still troubled. It is therefore vntrue and sheweth want of faith that you say, you thinke all the sinnes that come to minde should trouble a Christian mans conscience. And yet it agreeth well with your Popish spirit, which is the Spirit of bondage, and not of adopti­on, of feare, and not of promise. We say indeed that death is the Rom. 8. 15. & 6, 23. wages of all sin, and therefore all sinne is mortall and dam­nable, but we say that no sinne shall be laide to the charge of Gods Rom. 8. 33. 34. chosen, whom none shall condemne, because God himselfe iustifieth them Christ died, and rose againe for them.

Secondly you obiect, that the same scripture which com­mandeth the confession of some sinnes, commandeth as well the confession of all. It is very true that the scripture comman­deth to confesse all sinnes, but to God. Of confession to men there is no other commandement but generall; Confesse your sinnes one to another, and pray one for another: Which Iames 5. 16. [Page 39] giues as much authority to euery brother, as to a Priest to heare confessions: For of confession in the eare of a Priest, you can shew no tittle in the scripture. Howbeit as by the aduise and counsell of holy Scripture, Christians are taught to ease their oppressed consciences into the bosoms of their faithfull brethren, to the end they may be partakers of their comfort and prayers, so we thinke it also a godly course and a ready meane to find comfort, if the sheepe of the flocke do open their woundes to their pastor, who hath wisdome and faithfulnes to powre in wine and oile, that is, to minister vn­to them the word of admonition and consolation; and this is the meaning of our Communion booke, but what is this to Popish Eare shrift?

Yea, but the booke prescribeth also how after confession the Priest must absolue him, and the maner of words. You shoulde haue dealt faithfully, if you had set downe the whole truth. Our booke appointeth the Priest first to pray vnto our Lord Iesus Christ, that he would grant vnto the sicke per­son truely repenting and beleeuing in him, forgiuenes of all his sinnes, as acknowledging it to be the onely right of the Lord Iesus Christ to forgiue sins. Secondly, presupposing the sicke man truely to repent and to beleeue in Christ, it appointeth the Priest by the authority of our Lord Iesus Christ, who hath left power to his Church to absolue re­pentant sinners (which power is thē executed by the Priest) to absolue the sicke from all sinnes. To absolue, I say, not to forgiue: For Christ onely forgiueth, as our booke there vnderstandeth forgiuenesse, and as it is vnderstood in the Lords prayer, and as it is vnderstood in the Lords prayer, and is interpreted by the Prophet Dauid, Psalme, 32. 1. 2. By couering and not imputing sinnes. The Church by her ministers absolueth, that is, declareth to the repentant and beleeuing by authority of Christs promise, Sent. lib. 4. Dist. 18. Nec ideo & seq. that their sinnes are forgiuen. So saith Peter Lombard, This truelie we maie saie and thinke, that onelie God remitteth and re­teineth sinnes, and yet hath giuen power to his church to binde and loose; but he bindeth and looseth after one sort, and the church after another: For he bindeth by himselfe onelie, so hee forgiueth sinne, because he both clenseth the soule from the inwarde blot, and [Page 40] looseth it from the debt of eternall death. But he hath not granted so much to the Priests, to whom he hath onelie giuen power to bind and loose, that is, to shew that [...]en are either bound or loosed. And Bonauenture in his disputes vpon it, expounding the words of Ambrose Sacerdos officium exhibet, [...]ed nullius potestatis iu­ra exercet. That is, the Priest executeth his office, but exerciseth not the right of anie power, writeth thus. For Ambrose meanes to saie that sinnes are said to be remitted of the Priest, not in man­ner of a doer, but in manner of a minister. Against both Ambrose Non per modum efficientis, sed per modum mini­strantis. Con [...]l. [...]rid. Sess. 4. cap. 6. can. 9. and your Maister of the sentences, your Tridentine councell crieth Anathema, giuing to the Priest in their sacramentall absolution, not a bare ministrie to pronounce and declare, but a iudiciall act, whereby the sentence is pronounced by him, as by the Iudge. So making the comfort of him that is absolued, to depend not onely vpon Christs promise, but vpon the per­son of the Priest absoluing, which is farre from the doctrine or meaning of our Church, either in the Communion booke or any where else. And therefore what affinity soeuer bee betweene your Latine words and our English, there is no affinity betweene that comfortable absolution which our booke appoineth Gods minister in the name of Christ, to publish to the humble and repentant sinner, and your Po­pish and Pharisaical absolution. Lastly, this order of con­fession and absolution, as they are set downe in the commu­nion booke, is indeede some part of the practise of our reli­tion, but no principle of our religion, and therefore you do much abuse your Clients, when you make them beleeue that this and other orders, are any of the principles of our religion.

PAPIST.

Thirdly, the booke alloweth the signe of the Crosse in Baptisme, why then is it not likewise lawfull in other things? What word of The signe of the Crosse. Images. God willeth the one and forbiddeth the other? and if the signe of the Crosse be good, why not also other images, especially of Christ crucified? That te [...]t which they can bring to iustific the one, vvill also serue for the other: and that which they shall alleage to ouer­throvv [Page 41] the image of the Crucifixe, will giue small rest to the signe of the Crosse.

PROTESTANT.

It is false that you say, that the booke alloweth the signe of the Crosse in Baptisme. That signe by the ordinance of the booke hath nothing to do in Baptisme. It is onely made a signe of confession after Baptisme, which vse our Church hauing receiued as continued from antiquitie in that man­ner without interruption, considering how notably it ser­ued the faithfull in old times to manifest their confession of Christ crucified, thought meete still to retaine. But as for reuiuing any other vse of it after so long disuse, our Church thought, it might rather tend to superstition, then to edifica­tion; the rather because your Popish confidence in such bo­dily exercises had greatly corrupted the primitiue simpli­citie of the vulgar vse thereof among the first Christians. There is no word of God that willeth the vse of it, nor anie word of God, that I know, that forbiddeth the bare vse of it. It grew out of a desire the faithfull had to testifie before the enemies of Christ, their faith in Christ crucified. In the vse thereof it seemeth they felt further comfort, not hauing confidence in the signe, but in Christ whom they confessed by that signe. Neither was any of them euer heard to say, Aue cruxspes vnie [...], Hatle ô crosse our onely hope. As touching the match of equalitie that you make betweene the signe of the Crosse and the Crucifixe, you may well thinke that the ancient church being so long without the image of the cru­cifixe, namely aboue 600. yeares, and yet so early vsing Sexta Synod. Can 82. the signe of the Crosse, did acknowledge no small diffe­rence betweene the one and the other. A transient signe to signifie in gesture, that which the word signifieth in speech, and that onely for meanes of confession, differeth much from an image made to represent the Sonne of God, whose Godhead no colours, nor proportion can expresse, whose Manhood is not the whole of his person, whose nature, person and suffering is sufficiently, yea abundantly described in the Scriptures for all men to see and heare, [Page 42] neither is it possible for any art to make that visible in the image of the crucifixe, which is to be knowne, beleeued & remembred of Christ and his sufferings, according to the description of his word. To leaue the Scriptures & follow a crucifixe, is to go from the Sunne in the firmament, to the signe of the sunne painted in a table: To adde to the word the helpe of the crucifix, is to accuse the infufficiencie of the word. The signe of the Crosse had no such vse in the be­ginning, neither hath now with vs, and therefore differeth largely from the signe of the crucifixe: But it is worth the marking, how barely you bring into comparison, first the vse of the signe of the Crosse among vs, and the vse thereof in poperie. Do we teach to trust in that signe? Do we pray to it? do we worship it? do we blesse with it? do we fence & arme our selues with it? these are your Idolatries which you slily passe ouer, as if there were a like vse of the signe of the Crosse with vs and with you Papists. Secondly, the signe of the Crosse, and the image of the crucifixe, as if you did only make the image of the crucifixe historically and not to worship it. When we commit idolatrie with the signe of the Crosse, then compare our vse thereof, with your idolatries to the image of the crucisixe. Lastly, remember heere also that which I spake of the former; The signe of the Crosse is only an indifferent externall rite among vs, It is neither principle, nor second, nor third, nor fourth, nor any point of our Religion.

PAPIST.

Fourthly, in Baptisme they vse Godfathers and abrenuntiation: Why not also other ceremonies, namely holy Oile and Exorcisme? Holy oyle. Exorcisme. Reade the Scriptures, and as little there is for the first, as the last. Aske the auncient Fathers, and as much is found for the last, as for the first.

PROTESTANT.

In the administration of the holy Sacraments, the neerer we come to the institution of Christ, the more chast and in­corrupt [Page 43] we esteeme the administration of them to be and therefore haue taken that libertie, which the Church of God euer vsed, no further to follow the example of former times in matter of ceremone, then we do euidently see to serue for edification. By which rule no doubt sundrie ceremo­nies of auncient time vsed, afterward grew out of vse, as namely in Baptisme, the tasting of milke and honie, with certaine other ceremonies, either for come linesse or instru­ction taken vp in the primitiue Church, which afterwards were layd downe againe, as the times and growth of the Church fawe most conuenient.

As touching Godfathers and abrenuntiation; for that the one hath a good vse as well to prouide, that only the chil­dren of beleeuing parents be brought to Baptisme, as also to commit the care of the infants education to men for god­linesse and sound faith approued, and the other expresseth the couenant on the behalfe of the infant baptized, where­with he standeth charged, the mention whereof serueth as well to call to the mindes of others before baptized what they owe to God by the couenant betweene God and them sealed in baptisme, as also to enter the obligation of the infants faith and obedience, whereunto as soone as his yeares admit, he must know himselfe to be bound by the law of his baptisme: Therfore our Church of a care that all things may be done orderly and to edification, and that the end of Baptisme may be attained, hath vpon good reason continued these two. When you shall be able to shew vnto vs as serious & profitable vse of your Exorcisme and Oyle, then may we enter into consulation, whether in so lawfull libertie to alter or refuse vnnecessarie ccremonies, it were not much better to reason you haue so superstitiously pro­faned them (besides the slender vse) to leaue them onely to you, then after so long a farewell to giue them new enter­tainement, specially Scripture saying nothing for them, and the auncient Fathers although they testifie of the vse of these, as also some others by you neglected, yet in matter of ceremonie, allow freedome to euery Church in euery time These also are no principles of our Religion.

PAPIST.

Fiftly, the booke alloweth the vse of the Surplice in their Ser­uice and Sacramonts: vvhy then may not Copes, Vestiments and Copes. Vestiments. such like be admitted also. For no more can they shew for the one, then vve for the other.

PROTESTANT.

Multitude of needlesse ceremonies is alwayes a burthen, and therefore a bondage, both in the yoke of obseruation, and also in the taile of superstition, whereunto through blindnesse and carnall deuotion men commonly fall. And therefore our church though it retaine the Surplice, as most remote both in the originall and perpetuall vse from your superstition, and that onely for comelinesse, without put­ting any religion in it, yet both is and ought to be sparing in affecting the multitude of your theatricall or stage-like vestiments, which would rather disguise, then a dorne the Church of Christ. And herein our church hath followed the rule of Scripture, which albeit of loue and for peace it tea­cheth to suffer some things not necessary; yet streightly warneth the church not to be intaugled againe in the yoke of boudage. And so there is Scripture against many, and those Gal. 5. 1. before refused, more then against one, and that neuer out of vse. And heere againe, I may not forget still to put you in mind, that far it is from our church to esteeme the surplice, or any vse thereof, as a principle, or any part of our religion.

PAPIST.

Sixtly, in the Collect vpon Michaelmas day, they confesse that the Angels defend and protect our life, how then can they denie Praying to Saints. that they know our necessities and praiers? and so no reason can they alleage why we may not pray to them, as well as we do to our mortall brethren.

PROTESTANT.

Protect is not in the Collect, but only succour and defend. For we yeeld only a ministerie to the Angels, we hold them [Page 45] neither for patrons nor protectors. Which honor we giue onely to the Sonne of God the head of Angels. Neither doubt we but as farre as their ministerie extendeth toward vs, so far they know our necessities and prayers. But infi­nit knowledge which is proper to the Deity, we ascribe not vnto them. Neither is such limited knowledge in them any sufficient ground to leade vs to pray vnto them. The Angel that was sent to informe Iohn the Euangelist in the visions reuealed, notwithstanding the wonderfull counsell of God whereof he was then a minister & an interpreter, yet would not suffer Iohn to fall downe to him, which is much lesse Apoc. 19. 10. then to pray to him: For to whom we pray, to him very re­ligiously and lawfully we may fall downe. Many reuelati­ons of things secret & remote were granted to the Prophets in old time, and namely to Elisaeus, yet read we not that any man did euer pray to them, though some in reuerence to their ministerie, & the power of God administred by them, did fall downe to them. And yet how finely, or rather grosly you can assume without proofe or shew of proofe, that we may pray to our mortall brethren? haue you either precept or example for it in all the Scripture? Indeed we request and receiue one from another the helpe of our mutuall prayers; call you this praying to our mortall brethren? thus can you proue one paradoxe by another. These be your forcible and plaine reasons for your falsly named Catholike faith.

PAPIST.

Seuenthly, in the Geneua Psalmes, annexed to the Communion Limbus Patrum. booke, and vsually sung in their churches, they confesse that Christs soule descended to the Fathers that were in Limbo. For this article of the Creed, He descended into hel, they turne into Meetor after this manner. His soule did after this discend, Into the lower parts, To them that long in darknesse were, the true light of their harts.

PROTESTANT.

First you corrupt the Meeter, changing for your purpose [Page 46] Spirit into Soule. The meeter hath Spirit, not Soule. Se­condly, what the translator meant by Spirit, and by the low­er parts, it is not easie to define, vnlesse himselfe had left some glosse vpon his owne meeter, and considering that the lawe of meeter, restrained him from libertie of plaine speech, it were an iniury to him, to wrest his words cōtrary to his mea­ning: That by lower parts he meant your Limbus, you haue nothing to perswade you, but your owne preiudice that ca­ries you so to vnderstand it. It may be, that by Spirit, hee meant the power of his eternall Spirit, which in his suffer­ing, and after his suffering wrought both in heauen & vp­on earth, and vnder the earth, euen vpon the bodies of the dead who were in the lower parts, and lay in darknes as ge­nerally the dead do, Hilarie speaketh to like effect: Mone­tur terra, capax enim mortus huius esse non poterat &c. The earth Hilar. in Matth. Can. 33. Potestas aeternae virtutis. was moued, for it could not conteine him that was dead. The rocks were clouen for the piercing word of God, and the power of his eter­nall vertue, had broken into all places, how strong and well fenced soeuer. And the graues were opened, for the prisons of death were vnlocked, And many bodies of the Saints that slept, arose, for he in­lightning the darknes, and shining into, the obscuritie of the lower places, for the presēt raising of the saints asleep, took away the spoiles of death it selfe. What is the power of his eternall vertue but his eternal spirit. Whereby he brake into the holds of death, the darknesse of death, & the obscurity of the lower parts, & caried away the spoiles of death, & did inlighten with the brightnes of his power, the whole region of darknes, to the cōfort of all that waited for his cōming. All which Hilarie saieth, were done not by his soule, but that nature which he calleth Penetrās Dei vertū, & potestas aeternae vertutis, that is, his Deity. And the scripture speaking of the faithful depar­ted, although the soule & body by dissolution be in diuerse regions yet speaketh of the whole person together. So saith the Apostle Peter, of Dauid the patriake He is both dead and buried, & his sepulchre remaineth with vs. And the like in many Acts. 2. 29. other places wherfore the Power of Christ piercing to the dead, was a cōfort to all the faithfull departed. If this were his meaning, as by comparisō of the former place of Hilarie [Page 47] we may very well iudge, what seruice I pray you, can this meeter do to your Limbus? But whatsoeuer his mening were his priuate interpretation is no principle of our religiō, nei­ther can you be ignorāt, that there be that hold some locall discent of Christ, & yet be far from holding your Limbus, so might the author of that meeter likewise do. Albeit we hold that article for a principle of our religion, yet are not the sundry expositions thereof, according as seuerall men haue conceiued, so many principles of our religion, you must therefore seeke further for principles to serue your turne.

PAPIST

Lastly, Martin Luther taught the Real preseuce & maintai­ned Real presence. it against the Zwinglians, as others of our Aduersaries cānot denie, and yet doth the Apologie of England penned by M. Iewel call him a most excellent man, sent of God, to giue light to the world. How then can it be contrarie to the scripture? for if it were so, then surelie could he not be a man sent of God, for the matter of the Sacrament is no small point, but such as themselues will say that a wrong beliefe thereof bringeth damnation.

PROTESTANT.

Did Martin Luther teach Popish Reall prefence? did he teach Transubstantiation of the bread into the body of Christ? Did he teach carnall eating of Christs flesh? In the Act. 10. Augustane confessiō wherein he was a chiefe part, thus they cōfesse. Of the supper of the Lord, they teach that the body & bloud of Christ are truely present & distributed to them that eate in the Lords supper. We say the same, in the Arti­cles agreed vpon at Marpurg. Octob. 3. 1529. Whereunto Martin Luther first subscribed, we all beleeue and thinke, that the Sacrament of the Altar is the Sacrament of the true Histor, August. Confess. Spiritual eating body and bloud of Iesus Christ & that the spirituall eating of this body & bloud, is chiefly necessary for euery Christiā man. We say the same. In certaine articles setting the state of the controuersie betweene Luther and P [...]cer, and the rest of [Page 48] the Cinglians (as they are called.) Although we say that the bo­die Artic. 2. In aliqua mole. of Christ is really present, yet Luther sayth not that it is pre­sent locally, to wit; in any bignes, circumscriptiuely, but after that maner whereby Christs person, or whole Christ, is present to his whole Church and to all creatures, Luther saith not that Christs Sess. 3. cap. 1. Can. 1. body is in the sacrament, Circūscriptiuè. But your Trent Coun­cell saith, that the body of Christ is conteined in the sacrament of the Eucharist. Wherfore although Luther had an opinion of a Real presence by himself, which he could not tell how to expresse, nor would haue any disputation about the maner, yet in as much as he was farre from allowing your Popish charme, whereby you worke your monstrous Transub­stantiation, nor helde any carnall eating, neuer alleage Mar­tin Luthers Real presence, to giue countenance to your car­nall presence.

The Apologie may well acknowledge him an excellent man, sent of God, to giue light to the world, and yet not al­low of his error in any thing: neither will we say that euery wrong beliefe, euen in matter of the sacrament, bringeth damnation to a godly man, otherwise holding the founda­tion. And lastly, Martine Luthers priuate opinion is no principle of our religion, as you very well know.

PAPIST.

These things being so, with what conscience can the Protestants iustlie exclaime against vs, for defending a speciall confession of our sinnes, absolution of the Priest, the vse of Images, and the pic­ture of Christ crucified, the holie ceremonies of oile and exorcisme, copes and holie vestiments, that Angels know our praiers, and may be praied vnto, that Christs soule descended into hell for the deli­uerie of the holy Fathers that died before his sacred Passion, the Real presence of Christ in the sacrament, when as all these points, either in expresse termes, or by necessarie consequence, be gathered out of the grounds of their owne Religion.

PROTESTANT.

These things being so that no one of the points mentio­ned, [Page 49] is any principle of our Religion, nor in any one of the points which we acknowledge, do we agree with the Pa­pists, and the last of the seauen is none of ours, with what conscience could a Papist go about to raise a reason for Po­pish idolatrie, out of the principles of our religion, & in the end neither build vpon any principle of our Religion, nor proue any agreement betweene Popish confession and ab­solution, and that which the Church of England vseth, be­tweene the signe of the Crosse, as it is vsed in the Church of England and Popish Images betweene Godfathers and Abrenunciation, and popish oile, and exorcisme, as now they are betweene the decencie of the Surples, and the su­perstition of Popish vestemints, betweene the doctrine of some Protestants touching the article of descending into hel & Popish Limbus, no nor yet betweene Martin Luthers Real presence, and Popish carnal presence, wheras no one of these Po­pish points can either in expresse terms, or by any necessa­ry cōsequēce be gathered either out of any principle orany practise, or ceremonie in our religion, as hath been shewed.

The Fourth reason.

That is the true Church which hath the scriptures on their side and expoundeth them in that sense and meaning which was inten­ded by the holie Ghost, and none can deny, but al this is verified of the Catholike Church and not of the Protestant, as a fewe plaine arguments shall make manifest.

First therefore, no reason in the world can the Protestants aleage to proue that the scriptures be theirs, or to iustifie their interpreta­tion, which we cannot bring also for vs. For let them pretend con­ference of places, recourse to the fountaines of the Greeker Hebrue, or what else they will, all that we can say for our selues, and with a [...] great probability as they, and so in any iudgmet not palpablypartial we nothing inferior. On the cōtoary we to maintaine our expositiō beside all other helps cite the consent of ancient Fathers, the cōmon practise of Gods Church, the decrees of generall Councels, none of which they will stand to, and therefore in all equity and reason wee passing much superiour, can we then lacke the true sense of scrip­ture, [Page 50] that haue all these to backe our interpretation, specially that of Gods Church in generall councels, or can the Protestants haue it that be destitute of all these, as their deniall of them doth eui­dentlie proue and conuince.

PROTESTANT.

This forcible Reasoner seemeth now, as if he would come to vs, and ioyne issue with vs to be tryed by the Scriptures, whether the Popish Church or our Church, be the true Church. But surely if there be no more force in his reason, then plainenes in his dealing this reason wil be like his fel­lowes, and so proue neither forcible nor plaine: For when the reckoning of his reason is cast vp, he calleth backe the triall of the true Church from the scriptures, to his preten­ded Fathers and Councels, and againe from them to Gods Church, that is (in his meaning) the Popish Church, from whence all vseth to be deuolued to the Pope; And so in con­clusion, the question being, whether the Popish Church be the true Church, we must be tried by the Pope, who were much to blame if he would not say that his owne Church is the true Church, for euen theeues will say, that they are ho­nest men. Your owne Cannon law hath prouided that in all matters of faith, all men yea euen all Bishops must referre themselues to the Pope. Quoties, &c. As often as anie mat­ter Caus. 24. q. 1 of faith is debated, I thinke that all our brethren and fel­low Bishops, ought to referre the matter to none but to Peter, that is, to the authoritie of his name and honour. What is the autho­rity of Peters name and honour but the Pope? and therefore the Glosse there setteth downe in the margent. It is the Popes office to determine a question moued about faith. And Thomas Aquinas, It belongeth to faith to sticke to the Popes determination Opuse. con. error. Graec. it matters of faith, yea and in those things also that belong to good manners. If then in matter of faith or maners we cannot a­gree vpō sense of scripture, the Pope must strike the stroke, which he will be sure shall not hurt himselfe: So very fitly agreeth vnto you, that which Athanasius speaketh against Orat. 1. con. Arria [...]. the Arrians: They presume to determine of faith, and being [Page 51] themselues guiltie and obnoxious to indgment, like vnto Caia­phas, they vsurpe the office of indging. These are the men that will proue their Church to be the true Church, by hauing the scriptures on their side, but they will be the in­terpretors of scriptures by the mouth of their Pope. Well, go too, though vnder the bare pretence of scriptures, you meane to bring in the Pope, yet let vs see how you proue that the popish Church, which you falsly call the Catholike Church, hath the scriptures on her side, and expoundeth them by the sense intended by the holy Ghost.

Your first argument is onely a vaine brag,. Forsooth you can bring any reason for your expositiōs that the Protestāts can bring for theirs, as conference of places, recourse to the foun­taines, and what else they will, and with as great probabilitie as they. Why then do you not vse to follow that course in try­ing out the true meaning of the scriptures? Why do you Trid. Concil. Sess. 4. Dec. 2. without all conference of places tie all men to such a sense onely, as the holy mother Church, that is, your Popish Church, holdeth to whom, you say, it belongeth to iudge of Trid. Concil. ibi­dem. the true sence of scriptures, or whereupon all the Fathers con­sent in one, which you know to be imposible to finde? Why do you exclude the originall Bibles, and bind all men in expositions to your vulgare Latine as authenticall, and vpon no pretence to be refused? Whatsoeuer you boast, your owne cōsciences tell you that conference of places, and recourse to the fountaines, will do your cause more harme then good. And heere I wish the reader to obserue how sly lie you insi­nuate, that in conference of places, recourse to the fountaines, or a­ny other help that we vse, there is onely probility, and ther­fore these meanes will not serue, there is no rest till you come to that which you call Gods Church in general coun­cels, which in conclusion shall be all laied in the Popes lap, of which pierlesse meanes to know the vndoubted sense of scripture, it is maruaile that Augustine in his bookes, De Do­ctrina Christiana, hādling that point at large, forgatto speak, specially if, as you pretend, this be the onely sure way, that worthy Father spent his time belike in those meanes that haue onely a probability in them, as the Phrase of scripture, [Page 52] the circumstances of places, comparison with other places, analogie of faith, &c. And neuer thought of that which by your say­ing is worth all the rest. As you haue onely boasted of confe­rence of places, and recourse to the fountaines, so do you also of the consent of auncient Fathers, whereunto your selues will not be bound: For when Cardinal Caietane (as Andradius Dcfens fid.. Trid. lib. 2. reporteth) professeth that sometimes he will inteprete the scriptures against the straeme of the Doctors, and exhorteth the readers to trie his writings; not by other mens preiudice but by context of scripture, some accused him for it, as a fautor of the Lutherans, But Andradius defendes him, and giues his reasons. First, because the Fathers in infinit places specially of the old testamet, leauing the literall sense, which he confesseth doth onely serue to proue doctrine, runne vp­on other senses: Heere a man may freely depart from their ex­position and search for the literall sense. Secondly because the Fathers very oftē seeking for the true sense of the scriptures, haue giuen senses very diuerse and vnlike one to another: which if it be true, when will you finde the consent of the Fathers, about the sense of Scripture: Therefore Andraduis concludes that no man is bound to their expositions, but is at free libertie, forsaking them all to trie what he can do by Gods help, and to find out another new sense vnlike to the ancient Fathers exposi­tions: Be not offended with him, he doth you more seruice then you are ware of: For now you shal be at liberty to put vpon the scripture what sense you will, though it be against the streame of the Fathers Thus you followe the coon­sent of the ancient Fathers to whose sleeue, when it comes to the iumpe, you will not be pinned. Andradius to serue your turne, can alleage Augustines iudgment. Epist. 3. ad Fortunat. alleaged, Dist. 9. Can. Ne (que). Nobis enim licebit. &c. For it shall bee lawfull for vs, sauing the hono­rable respect which is due to the holy Fathers, to mislike and re­iect something in their writings, if peraduenture we find that they haue otherwise iudged, then the truth will beare, by Gods help vn­derstood either of others or of our selues. Whereunto we will al­so adde what the same Augustine saith, De vnitat. Eccles. cap. 10. Nemo mihi dicat, &c. Let no man say to me. Or what saied [Page 53] Donatus to me, or what saith Parmenianus or Pontius, or anie of them. for xe may not consent, no not to Catholike Bishops, if per­haps they be any where deceiued, So that they haue held any opiniō against the Canonical scriptures. May not these testimonies of Augustine as wel be alleaged & held good on our part, as on yours. To conclude in this point against your appeale to Scriptures, you vsually obiect that Heretikes alleage scrip­tures. It is true and Diuels too, but corrupted, and Christ alleageth them against the Diuel, and bids all men search them: But do not heretickes also alleage the Fathers as boldly as you that call your selues Catholikes? you can­not be ignorant of the mouthie clamor of Dioscorus the Eu­ty chian hereticke in the Councell of Chalcedon. I haue the te­stimonie Concil. Chalced. Act. 1. of the auncient Fathers, Athanasius, Gregorie and Cyril in manie places, I am cast out with the Fathers, I defend the Fathers opinions, I transgresse not in anie thing, &c. If we may not build vpon Scriptures, because heretikes alleage them much lesse may we vpon Fathers, which heretikes also alleage.

Your next meane is, The common practice of Gods Church. Indeede this rule will serue your turne well. For, what meane you by Gods Church? Forsooth the Popish church. So then, no interpretation of Scripture may bee good, that crosseth any practice of the Popish church, so you shall bee sure to keepe all whole. You should in wisedom haue con­cealed this as a mysterie among your selues. For what is it else but a conspiracie, that whatsoeuer the Scripture saith in words, it must at no hand bee vnderstoode to be against Po­pish practise. By this tyrannie, your Popes haue gotten the start fall the world: in so much, that though he runne Dist. [...]0. Si Papa to hell himselfe, and draw innumerable soules with him, yet no mortall man may presume to reprooue him, because he is to iudge all, and none to iudge him. Follow him to hell you that will, we will follow our Lord Iesus as his word leadeth vs. For him we knowe to be the way, the truth, and the life. Thus notably you proue, that you haue the true sense of the Scrip­tures, and therefore are the true Church. Yours is the true sense, because it is confirmed by your owne practise. And [Page 54] why so? Forsooth you say so. What is this else, but aske my fellow if I be a theefe. First, you set vp a wicked practise, then you peruert the Scriptures to maintaine it, and after­ward prooue your interpretation of Scriptures by your practise. Your practise is good. Why? the Scripture, as you vnderstand it, is for your practise. And why must the Scripture be so vnderstoode? because your practise so re­quires. First, you get both swords into your hands, then you prooue it by Ecce due gladij, behold heere two swords. First Extrau. cont. de maior. & obed. cap. Vnam san­ctam. you get aboue Emperours and Kings, then you prooue it by Inprincipio, non in principijs. in the beginning, not in the begin­nings. Such is your practise and such are your expositions.

Your last meanes is, the Decrees of generall Councels. Can you bring vs the Decrees of generall councels touching all Scriptures, what sense they doe and ought to beare. If not, then belike there is no knowne sense of any other Scrip­tures, then such as generall Councels haue expounded, the rest are buried in obscurity. But Augustine will not yeeld to that, who among other meanes to finde out the true in­terpretation of Scriptures, aduising diligently to search for both De Doctr. Christ. lib. 2. cap. 9. such precepts of good life and rules of faith, as are plainely set downe in the Scriptures, whereof the more a man findes, the more cap­able he is vnderstand the Scriptures, yeelds this reason of his aduise. In his enim, &c. For in those words which are euidently set down in the Scriptures, are found al those things which containe faith and maners of life. Next do generall Councels all agree in one: in this also Augustine is a witnes against you, writing against the Donatistes, who pleaded Cyprians letters, Cyprians sentence, Cyprians councell. But Augustine preferreth the holy Scripture aboue all the writings of Bishops, yea aboue all generall Councels, allowing the Scriptures alone to haue certaintie, and vndoubted truth in them, but all the writings of Bishops, yea the determinations of Councels to be sub­iect to the correction of other Bishops after them, and like­wise of other and later Councels, his wordes touching the Councels are. Ipsa enim concilia, &c. For the verie Councels De baptis. cont. Douat. lib. 2. cap. 3. which are held through euerie Region or Prouince, doe without all doubt giue place to the authoritie of plenarie (or generall) Coun­cels, [Page 55] which are held from out of all the Christian world, and the verieplenarie (or generall) Councels, the former oftentimes are amended by the later, when by any experiment of things that is open which was kept close, and that is knowen which did lie hid. What could haue beene more plainely spoken to bring into order, not onely all mens writings, but euen generall Coun­cels also to be iudged by the Scriptures, and not to iudge o­uer the Scriptures. Wherefore were it true that you so vain­lie boast of, that you had the consent of ancient Fathers, and the Decrees of generall Councels for you, yet were these no sure foundation to build our faith vpon: Neither doe wee take it to be any disgrace vnto vs, that we refuse to receiue our faith and vnderstanding in the mysterie of godlinesse from men, because wee feare the curse which is against the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arme: yea rather wee account it an honour to vs both before God and man, Ierem. [...]. [...]. that wee together with the whole true church of God, are built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Ie­sus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone: that we trie euerie spirit by the Scriptures whether it be of God or no: that we prooue Eph. 2. 20. 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 1. Thes. 5. 21. Act. 17. 11. Ioh. 5. 39. Esa. 8. 20. all things, as the men of Beraea did by searching the Scriptures ac­cording to the commaundement of Christ, and holde that which is good: that we haue recourse to the law and to the testimonie, and whosoeuer speake not according to that word, we holde them to be in darknesse, and to haue no light in them. From this hold you shall neuer driue vs, and yet thanks be to God you haue hi­therto beene beaten at your owne weapon, and for the prin­cipall points of faith and religion, haue beene put to silence by a cloud of testimonies both out of auncient Fathers and Councels, howsoeuer your brasen foreheads cannot blush, nor your leaden hearts relent, but still you will crie Fathers, Fathers. Councels, Councels.

PAPIST.

Secondly, to giue more light and force to the former reason concerning the aucthoritie of Fathers, I say that one or two, or a few of them may be deceiued, and therefore such particular opini­ons we admit not, and so refuse S. Cyprian about rebaptization: [Page 56] so we make no doubt but the vniforme and generall consent of them liuing in diuerse and farre distant places, and at diuerse times can­not but proceede from the Spirit of all truth that gouerneth the Church, and therefore S. Austine speaking of the Fathers that li­ued Contr. Iuli. lib. 2. cap. 10. before his time, hath these excellent words: That which they found in the Church, they helde fast, that which they learned, they taught; that which they receiued of their fathers, the same they de­liuered to their Children. S. Paul likewise saith, that Christ hath Eph. 4. 11. 14. giuen Pastors and Doctors that flourished in the primitiue church, and the Protestants cannot deuie, but that with their pens and la­bours they did defend the faith against the Arians, Pelagians, Donatistes, and manie more such pestilent heretikes.

PROTESTANT.

First, we haue shewed you before that by the iudgement of Cardinall Caietane, whom Andradius defends in it, it is lawfull, yea and necessarie sometimes in interpretation of Scriptures, to leaue the streame of the Fathers, and follow a diuerse interpretation from them all, which might at no hand be admitted, if (as you presume) wherein they gene­rally consent, they had beene all guided by the spirit of truth. Andradius doth not onely say so, but giues good rea­son for it: The literall sense of Scripture (saith he) doth onelie yeeld arguments to confirme points of religion: But the Fathers in infinite staies of the old testament, chieflie do leaue the literall sense and follow the tropologicall or allegoricall sense. In deciding of Doctrines, then which is to be done by the litterall sense, what helpe shall we haue from the consent of Fathers, who very seldome giue the litterall sense? Another reason hee giues, that the Fathers, in giuing the sense of Scriptures, haue gi­uen verie diuerse sense, and vnlike one to another. Where then shall wee finde that generall and vniforme consent that you speake of?

Secondly, the spirit of all truth neither guideth the whole church, nor any member therof, otherwise or by any other instinct, then by & from the holy Scriptures, whereby euery spirit is to be tried. So farre then as the Fathers either seue­rally [Page 57] or ioyntly doe accord with the manifest truth of Scrip­tures, we follow them without doubting, whatsoeuer they deliuer swaruing manifestly from the Scriptures, we leaue; what they haue probably spoken, we receiue as probable; alwaies reuerencing their antiquitie, gifts and labours, but not accounting their iudgements the rule of our faith.

Thirdly, you much abuse S. Augustine, in drawing his words (which yet serue not your turne) from his meaning Lib. 3. cap. 7. manifestly set downe in other places, Depeccat. merit. & re­miss. hauing before alleaged against the Pelagians, Cyprian & Ierome, he addeth this caueat. I haue not recited these things to anie such end, as if we leaned to the sentences of anie disputers what­soeuer they were, as to Canonicall authoritie, but that it may ap­peare that from the beginning vnto the present time, wherein this noueltie sprang vp, this point of originall sinne hath beene so con­stantlie kept within the faith of the church, &c. Howbeit, the most cleare and full authoritie of this opinion, is eminent in the holie Canonicall bookes. Likewise ad Bonifac. cont. duas epist. Pelag. Lib. 4. cap. 8. I thinke it pertaineth to our charge, not onclie to bring the holie Canonicall Scriptures witnesses against them, which alreadie wee haue sufficientlie done, but also out of the bookes of holis men, who haue handled them before vs with famous commendation & great glorie, to bring some documetns (or euidences) not for that the au­thoritie of anie disputer is equalled by vs to the Canonicall bookes, but to admonish such, who thinke that these fellowes say somewhat, after what sort the Catholike Bishops following the holie Scrip­tures, haue spoken of these points before the nouell and vaine words of those men. In like maner vsing S. Augustines words, we say to you, We thinke it a part of our charge, not onely to bring as witnesses against you the Canonicall Scriptures, which alwayes we doe in the first place, but also to produce testi­monies out of the writings of holy Fathers, not that wee mathch their authorie with the Canonicall Scriptures, but to let them see who thinke you say somewhat, the before your nouell and vaine boasting, the Catholike Bishops and Fathers following the Scriptures, haue taught as wee doe. Which in all the fundamentall points of religion hath been againe and againe prooued vnto you. In which points only [Page 58] Augustine maketh reckoning of the consent of Catholike writers. Other points (saith he) there are, about which euen the learnedest and best defenders of the Catholike rule, doe not agree Cont. Iul. Pe­lag. lib. 1. among themselues, alwaies sauing whole the frame of faith, and in some one matter, some say better and more trulie then others. But this about which we now deale, belongeth to the very foundations of faith, speaking of originall sinne in children. When fol­lowing Augustines example, you first alleadge Scripture, and then annexe the consent of Fathers, as treading in the steps of the Scriptures, wee will honour the Fathers iudge­ments for the Scriptures sake which they follow. This is all which Augustine did, or requires others to doe, Neither do Augustines words by you alleadged serue your turne. For what if the Fathers did constantly hold the Doctrine of ori­ginall sinne spread ouer all men, and hauing receiued it from their Fathers, so deliuered it to their posteritie, Doth it fol­low that Augustine beleeued it either onely or principally, because they did constantly teach it? You heard the contrary out of Augustine, before that that point is clearely and fully to be prooued by the Canonical Scriptures, which euen his owne words in this very place doe testifie, They all found it before any of them deliuered it? Where did they finde it, but in the Scriptures? The consent of Fathers may helpe to vn­derstand the Scriptures, but it is no rule to vnderstand them by, but rather the Scriptures are the rule to iudge of those truthes wherein the Fathers do consent.

Lastly, Paul indeed saith, that Christ gaue vnto his Church pastors and teachers, that we should not be caried about with eue­ry vvind of doctrine, but Paul saith not that Pastors and Do­ctors may cary vs about with what doctrines they list, or that we haue no libertie to trie their doctrine, whether it be of God or no. God the Father saith of his Son Iesus Christ, This is my well-beloued sonne, heare him. Yet our Sauior Christ commandeth his Church to search the Scriptures. Paul was called to be an Apostle not by man, but by Iesus Christ, yet did the men of Beraea trie his doctrine by the Scriptures, and are therefore commended by the holy Ghost. Will you then be aboue our Sauiour Christ and his holy Apostle Paul, to [Page 59] challenge vnto your selues vnder the name of Pastors and Doctors, an irregular authoritie to leade the Church of God whither you list, and must they followe you blindfold till you fall into the pit: For while you pretend to assume this prerogatiue for the Fathers, as Pastors and Doctors, you meane by that sleight, cunningly to conuey it to your selues, But if he that prophocieth must prophecie according to the propor­tion Rom. 12. 6. Gal. r. 8. 1. Tim. r. 13. Tit. 1. 9. of faith, if we may not receiue strange doctrine from an Apo­stle or Angel, if Timothie be charged to keepe the true paterne of wholesome words, if all Bishops must hold fast the wholesome word according to doctrine, if we be charged not to beleeue euerie 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 2. 3. spirit, but to trie them, because manie false prophets are gone out into the world, and for tryall of them haue our rules in the Scripture, it will not discharge vs in the day of iudgement to say, that we followed as we were led by Pastors and Do­ctors. It will be sayd vnto vs, that we had Moses and the Pro­phets, Luk. 16. 29. 1. Pet. [...]. 19. Ioh. 5. 39. that we had a most sure word of the Prophets, that we were commanded to search the Scriptures, that we had warning long ago by the Prophet Ieremie, Heare not the words of the Ierem. 23. 16. 22. Prophets that prophecie vnto you and teach you vanity: they speake the vision of their owne heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord. If they had stood in my counsell, and declared my words to my peo­ple, then they should haue turned them from their euill wayes.

To conclude, we follow the Fathers and all other true Pa­stors and Doctors in that which they truly teach vs, not be­cause we haue heard it of them, but because we are so taught in the Scriptures, as the men of Samaria beleeued not for the womans report, but because they had heard Christ himselfe. Ioh. 4. 41. 42.

PAPIST.

They obiect and say, that there is no reason to preferre the Fathers before the Scriptures, and captiously they demand, whether it be better to follow the openions of men, that might erre and be decei­ued, or the sentence of God himselfe that [...] neither deceine nor be deceiued. But answer is soone returned, that the question betwixt vs and them, is not as they would make simple people beleeue, whe­ther the Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit, but that [Page 60] (which I wish al diligētly to note) whether for the interpretation & true sense of the scriptures, we should not rather beleeue the anciēt, holy and learned Fathers, then those that liue in our daies so far frō the [...] Apostles age, & neither for vertue or learning cōperable to the old Saints of Gods Church. Let the question be propounded thus, & then none of indifferēt iudgmēt wil euer make questiō of the matter.

PROTESTANT.

As cunningly as you would shift off the true state of the question by propounding it in our names imperfectly at the first, and then of your owne putting falsly, yet neither can you so hide your owne shame, nor dazell the eyes of the godly, by casting the mist of your owne deuise before them. The question therefore is not as you say, Whether for the true sense of the Scriptures, we should not rather beleeue the auncient Fathers, then those that liue in our daies, neither onely whether Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit, which is but a con­sequence following vpon that which you affirme, touching the interpretation of Scriptures, by the consent of Fathers, as an infallible rule, but this is indeede the question be­tweene vs and you. Whether the Scriptures inspired of God, in all fundamentall points both concerning faith and manners be not so cleere and plaine, that they do sufficiently interpret themselues, against which cleere interpretation none other is to be receiued from what authoritie so euer it come. We affirme, you deny. And by denial make the interpretations of men of more cre­dit then the interpretation of scriptures. We haue the word of God on our side, Ps. 19. 7. The testimonie of the Lord is true, and giueth wisedome to the simple, 2. Tim. 3. 15. The Scriptures are able to make wise vnto saluation, Ioh. 5. 39. Search the Scriptures, for in them you thinke to haue eternall life, and they testifie of me. The men of Berea searched the Scriptures to trie those things which Paul spake, which had bene verie vainly done, if the Scriptures had not bin a leere light vnto them to discerne of all necessarie doctrines. We haue the godly Father S. Augustine cleere for vs, in his Quaeapertè, &c. In those things which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are al those points found which cōteine faith & maners of life. This [Page 61] being the state of the questiō, let all godly men see whether it be not a reproch to the Spirit of God to accuse his word of such darkenes and obscurity, that for the greatest part of the Church of God is not able to vnderstand it, no not in the principall matters of faith and godlinesse? Could not the Spirit of God in the Scriptures, speake to the vnderstan­ding of the simple? you will say yes; but perhaps he would not. Our Sauiour Christ giueth thankes to his Father for reuealing the doctrine of the kingdome of heauen to Babes, and Matth. 11. 25. hiding it from the wise. The Apostle Paul saith, If our Gospel he hid, it is hid in them that perish, in whom the God of this world 2 Cor. 4. 3. hath blinded their eies, that is, of the vnbeleeuers, that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them. The sheepe of Christ, heare the voice of Christ, and know it from the voice of strangers, and therefore will not follow strangers. How Ioh. 10. 4. 5. 27. could the sheepe of Christ, who now heare his voice onely in the scriptures, know his voice from the voice of stran­gers, if the scriptures were of purpose written obscurelie? yea let all reasonable men consider, whether it be not a san­die foundation to build our faith vpon, forsaking the scrip­tures inspired of God. to depend vpon mens lips, especial­ly the eternall word of God, hauing branded all men with Psal. 116. 11. Rom. 3. 4. Psal. 146. 3. Ier. 17. 5. this marke, that all men are [...]ers, and therefore expresly com­manding not to trust in any child of man, yea cursing euery man that putteth his trust in man. Augustine answering to an ob­iection of the Donatists, pretending to be written against him by a cheife man of the Catholikes, besides that he chargeth that epistle to be false & counterfaite, answereth thus: Muliò minus &c. Much lesse doth the Catholike Church Cont. Crescon. lib. 3. cap. 80. regard it, whose cause we plead against you, from which confident­ly resting vpon so many diuine testimonies, no humane testimonies of any mā, be they true or false, can take away that truth which it in­ioyeth, forbeare such things, I am but one man, the Churches cause is [...]n hand amōg vs not mine, the Churches, I say, which hath lear­ned of her redeemer to put her trust in no mā. To conclude, make not the simple people beleeue that we bring into cōparison the interpretations of this age, with the interpretations of the ancient Fathers, which is a meere calumnious slander of [Page 62] yours. We compare not mens interpretations with mens, but Gods with mens, God hath so tempered the Scriptures that things plainly spokē do interpret others not so plaine, 2. Cor. 3. 5. That the faith of Gods children should not bee in the wisedome of men, but in the power of God. Let the cause & question be thus propounded, and then none of the sheepe of Christ will e­uer make question of the matter.

PAPIST.

Fourthly, concerning generall Councels, I say that they cannot possiby erre in matters of faith; for then might we lawfully disobey them, and Christ willeth vs to take him as an Heathen or a Pub­licane, that will not obey the Church, then also should Hell gates preuaile against it, contrarie to our Sauiours promise. Then were Matth. 18. 17. Matth. 16. 18. 1. Tim. 3. 15. it not also the pillar and ground of truth, as S. Paul affirmeth. We therefore that imbrace the definitions of generall Councels, pos­sesse the true sense of the Scriptures, and not the Protestants that refuse to stand to their iudgement.

PROTESTANT.

If Augustine said true, as he is before alleaged that the for­mer general Councels haue bin corrected by the later, then sure­ly in his iudgment the former must erre, and one of them without doubt did erre. But what say you to the determina­tion of the Councell of Constance and Basile, which you de­ny not to haue beene generall, by whom the Pope is made De Baptis cont. Donat. lib. 2. c. 3. inferior to the Councell? Did they erre in it or not. Albertus Pighi [...]s spareth not to affirme, that they decreed plainelie against nature, against the manifest Scriptures, against all antiquitie, and against the catholike faith of Christ. So when generall Councels determine not for your tooth, you will not sticke to charge them with error, and shifts enough you haue to auoide them, either they were not gathered by the Pope, or not subscribed by the Pope, or thinges were vio­lently caried in them, as your Melchior Canus obiecteth a­gainst Lib. 5. cap. vlt. diuerse Councels, and specially against the sixt gene­rall [Page 63] Councel in Trullo, which in many points distasteth you: And when the account is cast vp, it is the Pope that cannot erre, for those onely determinations of Councels go for current with you that are confirmed by the head, which is the Pope.

But let vs see your strong reasons, whereby you prooue that generall Councels cannot erre. First, you say, Then might we disobey them. And Christ willeth vs to take him as an hea­then and a publican, that will not heare the Church. Let vs see your reason in forme.

If generall Councels may erre, then may we disobey them:

But we may not disobey them.—Therefore, &c.

How prooue you that we may not disobey them? Thus.

If he that heareth not the Church be, to be taken as an heathen or publican, then may we not disobey generall Councels.

But he that heareth not the Church, is to be taken as an hea­then or publican.

Therefore we may not disobey generall Councels.

The Proposition of this second syllogisme standing in greatest neede of proofe, you leaue it altogether vnproo­ued, and so after your maner, you begge that alwaies which is in question: For in the words of Scripture by you abu­sed, you should haue prooued, First, that the word, Heare, is to be extended to all matters generally; Secondly, that by (the Church) are meant onely generall Councels. Thirdly, that the Church is to be heard howsoeuer it iudge, which points except you prooue, the consequence inferred in the Proposition will not follow.

First therefore, the matter heere referred to the Church, is not decision of doctrines, but censure of scandals, as Chrysostome vpon the place obserueth. Now will it follow, He that obey­eth not the Churches censure in matter of scandall giuen to his bro­ther, is to be taken as an heathen or publican. Therefore Councels may not be disobeyed, whatsoeuer they teach in matter of faith and doctrine? Secondly, must we expect a generall Councel for redresse of euery scandall committed against a brother, by him that will not be brought to amendment by more priuate admonition? Did not the Church of Corinth censure the [Page 64] scandall of the incestuous person? Had not the Church of 1. Cor. 5. 2. Thes 3. 14. Thessalonica power to censure the inordinate walkers? And hath not euery particular Church power to censure all scan­dals within themselues? By your reason then wee may not disobey particular Churches in their derisions of Doctrine, neither can they erre any more then generall Councels, which your selues will not yeeld, and the errours of the Church of Corinth doe gaine say. To shew the insufficien­cie of your proofe, I will set by it this argument.

Hee that will not heare a particular Church censuring in matter of scandall, is to be helde as an heathen or publican.

Therefore wee may not disobey a particular Church in matter of doctrine.

The first part you cannot denie, the consequent I knowe you will not yeeld: such is the force of your forcible rea­son.

Thirdly, doth not the place expresly limit the censure of the Church, whereunto obedience must be giuen. First, it is supposed in the text, that a brother hath trespassed against a brother. Secondly, that it cannot be denied but he hath done so. Thirdly, that his fault is tolde him as alone, and with two or three witnesses, so by the Church. Lastly, that the party offending conuict of the offence, and iustly censured by the Church, obeyeth not. But if either the bro­ther had not trespassed, or had not beene conuicted, and so the Church had vniustly censured him, or if the Church had corruptly imposed any thing vpon him, either to be belee­ued, or to be done: was he then not hearing to be taken as a publican or an heathen? Our Sauiour Christ saith not so. For this had beene to giue tyrannicall power ouer mens soules and consciences into the hands of the Church, which our Sauiour neuer did. Now if wee should graunt you that hearing of the Church in this place, might be extended to matter of Doctrine, if by like proportion you suppose, that the determination of the Church is agreeable to the Scrip­tures, and that the Church by the Scriptures approoueth their determination to the consciences of the faithfull, as we then graunt you that we may not disobey so this will helpe [Page 65] your cause nothing at all, who will not submit the sentence of generall Councels to be tried by the Scriptures, but ma­keth it superior to the Scriptures, and consequently Lord ouer mens consciences. which as the Apostle scrbiddeth to 1. Pet. 5. 1. the elders of the Church in all seuerall Churches, so doth he also to the elders assembled in agenerall Councell. For in the Councell of the Apostles at Ierusalem by the mouth of Iames, both Peter and the rest, lay for the foundation of their Act. 15. 15. sentence, the words of Scripture; To thu agree the wordes of the Prophets.

Your second reason is, Then should also [...]ell gates preuaile against it, contrarie to our Sauiours promise. Let vs see this rea­son also in forme.

• Hell gates preuaile against euerie one that may erre,
• But hell gates preuaile not against the Church:
• Therefore the Church may not erre.

First, you conclude not the question. Which is not whe­ther the Church may erre, but whether generall Councels may erre. But neither are generall Councels so large as the onely visible Church, being but speciall members assem­bled out of the whole, whose errour may not be imputed, no not to the whole visible Church, neither is the visible Church the whole Church, no not the whole militant Church; and therefore although the gates of hell cannot preuaile against the Church, yet they may preuaile against generall Councels.

Secondly, the Church may erre, and yet hell gates not preuaile against it. For the Proposition of the former syllo­gisme containing your reason, is not true. The gates of hell doe not preuaile against euery one that erreth. Peter erred both in matter of fact, and in matter of faith. His errors in matter of fact are knowen to be many, and not denied by you. His error in matter of faith, was in iudging it vnlaw­full to eate of things common: yet did not the gates of hell Act. 10, 14. preuaile against him.

Thirdly, the gates of hell not preuailing against the whole militant Church, may yet preuaile against the visible parts of this Church, and in some age or ages; It followeth [Page 66] not therefore, that if the gates of hell preuaile against the vi­sible Churches of some age that therefore they doe preuaile against the whole militant Church. Where be the famous Churches of Achain, of Galatia, of Macedonia? nay, what a handfull is the remnant of the Church now in a corner of Europe, principally knowen by the name of the Church, to the large circuit of the Church, both in the Apostles time, and after spread ouer the whole world? Will you say, the gates of hell haue preuailed against the Church, because they haue preuailed against some Churches, so many, so fa­mous in some age or ages. The Church of Christ may be more and lesse occumenicall, and yet the Church of Christ still, against which the gates of hell, neither haue, nor euer shall preuaile: and yet may preuaile against the Churches of Achaia, Galatia, Macedonia, and many others: yea, against the once famous Church of Rome, as they haue done, so that the faithfull citie may become an harlot. Wherefore begin Isa. 1. 21. once to be ashamed of this sophistrie.

The gates of hell cannot prenaile against the Church of Christ.

Therfore not against a generall Councell, which is but some of the many churches of one time, and is far from the large­nesse of the whole church of Christ.

Your third reason is Then were it not also the pillar and ground of truth, as S. Paul affirmeth. Let vs also bring this rea­son into forme.

• The pillar and ground of truth cannot erre.
• The Church is the pillar and ground of truth:
• Therefore the Church cannot erre.

First, what is this to generall Councels, which are not that church which S. Paul calleth the pillar and ground of truth, but at the best onely some part of it? that church is the house of the liuing God, which extends it selfe more largely both in regard of persons and times, then to the number assembled in some generall councels, in some times of the church. Whereby it commeth to passe, that (as before hath beene noted out of Augustine) generall councels haue corrected prouinciall, and the later generall councels haue corrected [Page 67] the former. Wherefore some generall councell or councels may erre, and yet the church remain still the pillar and ground of truth.

Secondly, the Church is called the pillar and ground of truth, (as hath bene shewed) because the Oracles of God are committed vnto it, which the church keepeth faithfully to the worlds end. By which as by an vndoubted marke the true Church is knowne from the false: For the false church casteth away and corrupteth the Scriptures, neither doth vphold and beare vp the truth by the preaching of the Gospell, as is manifestly seene in the Apostaticall church of Rome. Contrariwise the true church conserueth the re­cords of Gods truth, and preacheth the doctrine of the ho­ly Scripture, for the gathering of the Saints, and the edify­ing Ephes. 4. 12. Mal. 2. 7. of it selfe. Howbeit as the Priest whose lips should pre­serue knowledge, and at whose mouth they should inquire the law, may sometimes faile in the knowledge and shew­ing of the law: So the visible church may in some points of truth hold erroneous opinions, and yet continue still the pillar and ground of truth, to wit, of that truth which is ne­cessarie to saluation, in the true knowledge and custodie whereof the true Church shall neuer deceiue nor be decei­ued. The Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ at the time of his ascention, were the onely true visible church of Christ, who vndoubtedly were the pillar and ground of 1. Tim. 6. 3. truth, holding fast the foundation which is Iesus Christ, and keeping the wholesome word which is according to god­linesse, Act. 1. 6 yet did they erre in the matter of restoring the king­dome to Israel.

Thirdly, as before hath bene shewed out of Chrysostome, The truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church. For as Au­gustine August. [...] 166. faith to the Donatists, In the Scriptures we haue learned Christ, In the Scriptures vve haue learned the Church. Vnder­standing therefore pillar, ground or firmament, for the strength, stay or foundation, the truth is the strength, stay and founda­tion of the church, which is built vpon the foundation of the Eph. 2. 20. Apostles and Prophets, Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone. But the church is the pillar and ground of truth, as Galath. 29. [Page 68] Cephas, lamet and Iohn were counted to bee pillars, because by their preaching the Gospel was greatly vpheld. Funda­tores Ecclesiae erant & sustentatores, They were founders of the Church and vpholders, as Haym [...] noteth out of Augustine. So the Church layeth the foundation of truth, and beareth vp the truth by confessing and preaching. Inqua solu (as Prima­sius noteth) nunc veritas stat firmata, & que solatotum edificium sustinet veritatis, that is, In vvhich alone the truth novv stan­deth grounded, and which alone beareth vp the vvhole building of truth. Not that the church is as Ladie ouer the truth, but as an handmaide to the truth. Therefore as Peter being a pillar, was yet subiect to error, so the church is not free from all error, although it be the pillar and ground of truth. The Protestants therefore that embrace that truth, which the true church teacheth, according to the Scriptures haue the true sense of the Scriptures, and not the Papists that build vpon variable and vncertaine definitions of men not exa­mining them by the infallible and cleere doctrine of the Scriptures.

PAPIST

Fiftly, S. Peter saith that no prophecie of Scripture is made by 2. Pet. 1. 20. priuate interpretation. Priuate interpretation [...] haue none, seeing vve interpret them according to that sense vvhich consent of anti­quitie and the authoritie of Gods Church deliuereth: and the Pro­testants haue none but priuate, seeing their doctrine is that euerie one must examine by the touchstone of the Scriptures vvhat others do teach, and so to admit or reiect it, as they find it agreeable or not, to the vvord of God: vvhich if it be not priuate interpretation, there can be none sound in the world. For vvhat can be more pri­uate, then for euerie priuate vnlearned artificer to make himselfe iudge ouer all, and to sentence this mans doctrine as agreeable to Gods vvord, and to reiect the common opinion of manie more. yea though of ancient Fathers and generall Councels, as contrarie to sacred Scripture, and yet this is common amongst our aduersaries, as daily experience informeth vs.

PROTESTANT.

Priuate interpretation in this place of Peter, is opposed to the interpretation of the spirit, as in the wordes plainely appeareth, and not one mans interpretations to manie mens, as you pretend. For all mens interpretation if it be humane, comming of their owne sense, and not taught by the Spirit is [...] their owne, which you call priuate. The gift of interpretation as other spirituall gists, is of the spirit 1. Cor 13. 10. Luke. 24. 45. of God, who openeth the hearts of men to vnderstand the scrip­tures. As he opened the heart of Lydia: For otherwise as the Act. 1 [...]. 14. veile remaining vpon the hearts of the Iewes, they could not see into the end of the law, but vvhen the v [...]le vv is taken a­way 2. Cor. 3. 16. from their hearts, then by a right vnderstanding of the Scriptures they were conuerred vnto Christ: So while the vaile of carnall wisedome, which is foolishnesse vvith God, is 1. Cor. 1 10. Rom. 8. 7. 1. Cor. 2. 24. vpon the hearts of men, they cannot discerne the wisedome of God reuealed in the Scriptures. For the Scripture and the true sense thereof is spiritually discerned, and onely the Ioh. 6. 45. spirituall man discerneth all things. By this spirit are all that beleeue taught of God, and euerie man that hath heard and learned of the Father, commeth vnto Christ. This spirit by the Act. 8. ministerie of Philip led the Eunuch to the true sense of the Prophet Esay. Neither Philip nor any of the disciples could giue him the spirit of discerning. Ne (que) enim (saith Augustine) De Trinit. lib. 15. cap. 26. aliquis discipuloruns e [...]as dedit spiritum Sanctum, For none of his disciples gaue the holy Ghost. Neither can all the Doctors, Fathers or Councels in the world beget the true vnderstan­ding of the Scripture in any one mans heart. It is the worke of the heauenly teacher, that is, the holy Ghost, which Au­gustine ingeniously confesseth, Sonus verborum nostrorum Tract. 3. in Ioan. epist. aures percutit, magister intus est. &c. The sound of our words beateth the eares, the minister is vvithin. Thinke not that any man doth learne any thing of man. We may admonish by the noise of our voice, if there be not to teach within, our noise is in vaine Will you knovv it indeed brethren? Haue ye not all heard this Sermon. How manie will depart hence vntaught? For my part I haue spo­ken to all, but to whom that annointing speaketh not within, whom [Page 70] the holy Ghost teacheth not within, they depart vntaught. Tea­chings that are outward, are some helpes and admonitions. He hath his chaire in heauen that teacheth the hearts. Thus farre Augustine. Neither do we send men to any other spirit then that which teacheth in the Scriptures; for euen in hearing and reading of the scriptures, the spirit createth in our harts the true vnderstanding of them, as our Sauiour interpre­ting the Scriptures to his disciples, withall opened their hearts to vnderstand them, and on the Sabbaoth day ope­ning Luk. 24. 32. 44. 45. the prophecie of Esay, withall he opened their hearts, that they vvondered at the gracious vvords that proceeded out of his mouth. And Philip began at that Scripture which the Eu­nuch Luk. 4. 22. Act. 8. was reading, and preached to him Iesus, when the holy Ghost opened his heart to beleeue, and when Paul spake Lydiaes heart was opened. This spirit which is the spirit of Act. 16. 14. wisedome, is also the spirit of adoption, and therefore as all the sonnes of God to whom appertaineth the adoption, haue receiued also the spirit of adoption, and he that hath not the spirit of Christ, is none of his, so all that are wise vnto Rom. 8. 9. Ioh. 20. 31. Eph. 1. 17. 18. saluation, all that doe knowe, that Iesus is that Christ, the Sonne of God, and by beleeuing haue life through his name, haue likewise receiued the spirit of wisedome and reuelation to inlighten the eyes of their vnderstanding; to knowe the things that are giuen them of God, and vvhat that hope is of his calling, and vvhat the riches of his glorious inheritance is in the Saints.

Neither is the whole Scripture so obscure as you would beare men in hand: I haue before shewed you the confession of Augustine. In those words which are euidentlie set downe in De doctr. Christ. lib. 2. cap. 9. Epist. 3. the Scriptures, are found all those things which conteine faith and maners of life. And in another place. Those things which the Scripture euidentlie conteineth, as a familiar friend it speaketh, without obscuritie to the heart of learned and vnlearned: The spirit of God not onely prouiding the Scriptures, but also that the reader should meete with the true meaning of them De doctr. Chr. lib. 3. cap. 27. as Augustine saith.

Yea but say you, when euerie one must examine by the touch­stone of Scripture, what other do teach, and so admit or reiect it, as [Page 71] they find it agreeable or not agreeable with the word of God, if this be not a priuat interpretation there can be none found in the world. Feare you not thus to open your mouth against heauen, and to call that interpretation which is grounded on the Scrip­tures, a priuate interpretation? When our Sauiour referred the Iewes to seeke witnes of himself, by searching the scrip­tures, did he referre them to a priuate interpretation? when the men of Beraea searched the Scriptures, vvhether those things that Paul spake vvere so or no. Did they follow a pri­uate interpretation? By this which you call priuate inter­pretation Augustine exhorteth to search out the meaning of the Scriptures, that for the illustrating of the more obscure De doctr. Chr. lib 2. cap. 97. speaches, examples be taken from the more manifest, and some te­stimonies of certaine senses take away the doubt of the vncertaine. In obscure places, where the sense cannot be found by con­ference with other plainer places of scripture, Augustine ad­mits to giue reason to the sense we bring, but saieth he. This custome is dangerous, it is more safe to vvalke by the diuine scrip­tures De doctr. Christ. lib. 3. cap. 27. vvhich standing in translate vvords when vve vvill search, either let such sense be made of it as hath no cōtrouersie, or of it haue let it be determined by the same Scripture, vvheresoeuer the wit­nesses thereof can be found and applied. Neither is this to make euery priuate vnlearned artificer iudge ouer the Scriptures, but to set all both learned and vnlearned to schoole to the Scriptures, from whence as Augustine saith before alleaged vve haue learned to knovv Christ, and to knovv the church of Christ. But if we follow Popish guides, we must learne to knowe the scriptures (for the sense of the scripture is the scripture) yea and Christ himselfe, by the tradition of the Church, and receiue such a sense of scriptures, and such a Christ as Fathers and Councels by their authority shall de­liuer vnto vs, not hauing left vnto vs any power to trie the spirits by the Scripture, the infallible touchstone of all spi­rits, by which both Christ and his Apostles were content to Iohn. 5. 39. Galat. [...]. 8. be tryed. If this be not a priuate interpretation, there can be none found in the world.

PAPIST.

To assure vs this is Canonical scripture and which is not there is no other way but to cleane vnto the authoritie of Gods Church. Therefore S. Austen saieth, I would not beleeue the Gospell if the authoritie of Gods church did not mone me: And the Protestants Contr. epist. fund. cap. 4. cānot in this question euer giue cōtent either to themselues or other if they take any other course: For where do they finde in the whole Bible, that S. Iames his Epistle (for example) is Canonical scrip­ture? is it not well knowen that Luther did reiect it? But faine would I know, how they can according to their principle, which is to beleeue nothing but scripture, proue this point against Luther out of the scripture, most certaine it is they cannot, and that which we say of S. Iames his Epistle, may be said of any other part of the Bi­ble, if one be disposed to deny it: Seeing then that there is equall danger of saluation in expounding the scriptures con [...]rarie to the true senseintended by the holy Ghost, as there is in refusing that for Scripture which vvas ind [...]ed by the holy Ghost, vvhat man of reason can denie, but that if the church doth tell vvhich is the scripture and vvhich is not, that the same Church is likevvise to tell vs vvhich is the true sense of the scripture, & which is not. We therefore that interprete them, as the church teach vs, haue the scriptures indeede, and the Protestants that do othervvise, be desti­tute of the true sense of the vvord of God.

PROTESTANT.

The summe of this Argument is this:

Whatsoeuer meanes wee haue to knowe the Canonitall Scrip­tures, the same we haue to know the true sense of them: For there is equali danger in wrong expounding Scriptures, and re­fusing them.

But there is no meanes to know the Canonicall Scriptures, but by [...]e authoritie of the Church: For no man can prooue against Luther, that Saint Iames his Epistle is Canonicall, but by the authoritie of the Church, and Austen Jaith, I would not be­leeue. &c.

Therefore there is no meanes to know the true sense of the scrip­tures [Page 73] but by the anthority of the Church.

First then as before hath bin noted, Augustine was much uerseene in his bookes De Doctr. Christ. among so many meanes as he theresets downe to search & find out the true sense of Scriptures to forget the authority of the Church, which you will now haue to be the onely meanes.

Secondly, in a sense it is true that the authority of Gods Church, is a meanes to know both the Canonicall Scrip­ture, and the true sense thereof. The Church of God doth neither giue being or authority to the Scriptures, nor sense to the Scriptures, but being taught of God in both, giues witnesse of both, to her owne children and euen to those that are without, and by the ministrie and meanes of her te­stimonie, they to whom the Scriptures were before vn­known, begin to receiue them, and they that haue receiued them attaine to the sense of them, by that gift of interpre­tation which God hath giuen to his Church, yet doth not Gods true Church set vp her authority in mens consciences to binde them without a better Teacher, and of greater au­thority to receiue any thing at her handes for Scripture, or to rest in her interpretation of Scriptures without tryall. As Philip hauing testified to Nathanael. We haue founde him of whom Moses did write and the Prophnts, Iesus the sonne of Io­seph, when Nathanael made doubt because he was of Na­zareth, doth not inforce his owne authority, but bids him come & see, so the Church testifying of the Canonical scrip­tures & of the true sense of them, bids all men come and see, Ioh. 1. 46. that is out of the Scriptures inspired of God by the teaching of the spirit, to know the maiestie and authority of them, & after they haue beleeued the scriptures to be the vndoubt­ted word of God, in them to search the true meaning of thē, as Augustine teacheth both as he is before alleaged, and in the very booke by you quoted, for shewing how the Ma­nichees, teach & how the Church teacheth, thus he writeth, Whatthinke you we must iudge or do, but to forsake thē who inuite Contr. epist. Fun. cap. 14. vs, to know things certaine, and after cōmand vs to beleeue thinges vncertaine, (the very right description of the Popish church) And follow thē who inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are [Page 74] not able to looke into, that when we are waxen stronger in faith, we may attaine to vnderstand that which we beleeue, novv not men but God inwardly strengthning and enlightning our minde. Wher­by that former sentence of Augustine, so commonly allea­ged by the Papists, receiues plaine interpretation: Ego non crederem &c. Euery word almost in the sentence, hauing a speciall signification to shew that he onely acknowledgeth the churches testimony in the beginning of his conuersion, to haue beene the meanes to moue him to thinke well of the scriptures. Ego. that is, I being a Manichee, hauing not yet searched the scriptures, nor hauing knowen the maiesty of the Gospell. Non creder [...]m, that is, would not haue giuen any regard vnto nor haue beene tractable to learne, as the whole booke De vtilit ate credends ad Honor a [...]ū doth shew, & namely cap. 9. For (faith he) true religion, vnlesse those things De vtil. creden. ad ionorat. cap. 15. be beleeued, which if a man behaue himselfe well, and be worthie, he may aftervvard attaine to & vnderstand, vvithout some great commande of authoritie, can by no meanes bee vvell entred into, For (as he saieth in the same booke) betweene mans foolish­nes and the most sincere truth of God. Mans vvisedome is set as a middle thing, for a vvise man is to follovve God, a foolissh man is to follovv a vvise man: yet as Augustine there sayeth, not to put his trust in men, but onely in the sonne of God, the sin­cere eternall & vnchangeable wisdome of God, whereunto onely we ought to sticke, who for our sakes, namely to be­come our Teacher, vouch safed to take vpon him mans na­ture. Contr. Epist. Fundam. cap. 5. This most sincere wisedome, Contr. Epist. Fundam. cap. 4. he settech in the first ranke (though hauing to deale with a Manichee, hee saieth he will omit to speake of it) as that which holdes him without any doubting in the bosome of the Catholike church, whereas in all his other motiues hee onely meaneth to shew that euen only in thē he hath better hould then the Manichees haue for their heresie. For other­wise he preferreth the vndoubted proofes of scripture, be­fore the authority of the catholike Church. If peraduenture (saith he) you can finde any thing in the Gospell, verie plaine for Manichees Apostleship, you shall vveaken vnto me the authoritie of the Catholikes, and before; if so manifest truth be shovved, that Cap. 4. [Page 75] it cannot come into doubt, it ought to bee preferred before all those things, by vvhich I am held in the Catholike church. 3. Catholice Ecclesiae, meanes hee the Catholike church of all times, or ra­ther the Catholike church of the first times, who hauing re­ceiued the Scriptures by Apostolicall testimonie deliuered them to their posterity? At whose hand Augustine receiued them, not vpon their onely testimony, but vpon the records of the Catholike Church of the first times, which the church in his time had to shewe for the Canonicall and vndoubted Scriptures. What his meaning is in this behalfe, let Augustine himselfe declare.

Beleeue (saith he) this booke to be Matthewes, which from that time wherein Matthew himselfe liued in the flesh, by course of Contr. Faustr [...] Manich. lib. 28. cap. 2. Lib. 33. cap. 9 time not interrupted the Church, through certaine succession of continuance hath brought along vnto this time. And against the same heretick hee vseth a very apt comparison to this pur­pose: there haue many bookes come forth vnder the name and title of secular authors, which were neuer theirs, as for example many bookes vnder the name of Hippocrates that were not his. How are these descried? Therefore are they re­fused (saith Augustine) because either they did not agree to those writings, which were manifestly knowen to be theirs, or were not acknowledged in the time wherein they wrote, nor were commen­ded to posteritie by themselues, or those that were most familiar with them: and specially of Hippocrates his bastard bookes, when being compared to those which were trulie knowen to be Hip­pocrates his owne, they were iudged to be vnlike, and because they were not knowen to be trulie his at the same time, when the rest of his writings came to be knowne. So the ecclesiasticall writings of men are no otherwise knowen whose they were, but be­cause in the times wherein euerie one wrote them, he acquainted and published them to whom he could, and from thence by a conti­nued knowledge from one to another, and farther confirmed, they cap. 9. came to their posteritie euen to our times. In like maner he con­cludes of the holy Scriptures, If you will follow the authoritie of the Scriptures, which ought to be preferred before all other, fol­low that which from the times of the verie presence of Christ, by the dispensations of the Apostles, hauing beene kept throughout the [Page 76] whole world, came commended and famouslie knowen to our times. By all which it is euident, that Augustine meant not to make the Catholike Church of his time the author of his beleefe, touching the Canonical Scriptures, but the Catholike Church of the first times, who came neerest to the writing and de­liuerie of the Scriptures from the hands of the Apostles, and the Apostolike men that wrote them, for whose testimonie and commendations sake, the Church succeeding is also be­leeued. What is this to the supposed Catholike church of our daies, by which you meane the Popes kingdome, when euen the true Catholike church of later times neither hath nor chalengeth to her selfe any credit in this matter, but as she can porduce the testimonie of the Catholike church in the first times?

Lastly, Augustine there saith, Nisi me commoueret Ecclesiae authoritas. He only ascribeth to the Churches authoritie, that it is a motiue, and the first motiue to induce an vnbeleeuing man, to thinke well of the Scriptures, but hee resteth not in this motiue. Hauing thus begun, he proceedeth after in sear­ching the Scripture to finde by what spirit they were writ­ten, and by the authority and teaching of that Spirit, as the vndoubted word of God to embrace them, not man now, but God himselfe inwardlie strengthening and enlightening his [...]inde, as he is before alleadged. What makes all this for the authoritie of the Popish, falsly called Catholike church, to lead mens consciences into captiuitie by her interpretations or determinations, either of the Canonicall Scriptures, or of their sense. Nay, what makes this for such authoritie as vn­der the Churches title you would claime, to depriue Chri­stians of any better assurance, either touching the Scriptures or their sense, then it receiued from the authoritie of the Church, that is of men no lesse subiect to errourthen them­selues?

But you would faine knowe, how the Protestants that be­leeue nothing but Scripture, can by Scripture prooue against Lu­ther, that S. Iames his Epistle is Canonicall Scripture? Euen in like manner as wee can prooue S. Pauls Epistles, and other Scriptures inspired of God to be Canonicall Scripture. For [Page 77] thinke you that that Spirit, by whose inspiration holy men of God wrote the Scriptures, doth not still breath in the same Scriptures, by meanes of which Spirit, the word of God Hebr. 4. 12. liueth, and is mightie in operation, and by that speciall vertue differeth from humane writings, yea euen those that are written of Scripture matters? Either then you must diuide the Spirit from the Scriptures, when Gods children reade it (which you cannot doe without dishonour to the Scrip­tures) or you must needes confesse, that out of the Scriptures inspired of God, Gods children doe sufficiently prooue vn­to their owne consciences, and against all gaine-sayers, that the whole Scripture and euery part thereof is Canonicall, that 1 Cor. 2. 4. is a souereigne rule to guide the Church in all points both concerning faith and maners. For, as the Apostles prea­ching, so his writing and all Scripture inspired of God, hath in it selfe plaine euidence of the spirit and of power, that our faith should not be in the wisedome of men, but in the power of God. Thus out of S. Pauls Epistles, wee can prooue S. Pauls Epi­stles to be Canonicall. And out of S. Iames his Epistle, wee can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall, and general­ly the whole Scripture prooues it selfe to be Canonicall, and from it selfe the Church receiueth receiueth witnesse of it selfe. If you be ignorant of this, it is because you haue not receiued of the annointing of that Spirit, by whom the Scriptures were inspired. And now cease any longer to disport your selfe with this carnall question, out of what Scripture the Prote­stants can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall. The sheepe of Christ doe knowe the shepheards voice, and they knowe it not by report, but by it selfe they discerne it. To conclude, because there is danger in expounding the Scrip­tures contrarie to the true sense intended by the holy Ghost, albeit not equall danger, as in refusing the holy Scripture indited by the holy Ghost, as Augustine insinuateth, Confess. lib. 12. cap. 23. 24. as in the greater, that is the approbation of Canonicall Scriptures, wee dare not remit all to mens voi­ces, though they be the Church; so in that wherein errours is lesse dangerous yet dangerous too, that is, in determining the true sense of Scriptures, we dare not build our faith vp­on [Page 78] the wisedome of men, because as hath beene alleadged out of Augustne. we haue learned of our Redeemer, in [...]llo ho [...]ike spem pouere, to put no trust in any man, but onely in the plaine euidence of the spirit that speaketh in the Scriptures; which so long as we doe with faithfull prayer, and humble submission to his teaching, according to the promise, they shall be all taught of God, weare assured to be led into all truth Isa. 54. 13. Iohn. 6. 45. necessary to saluation, which security the Papists that rest in mens authority can neuer haue.

PAPIST.

Seauenthly, wittingly and willingly they corrupt the text of holy Scripture for example, to make the people beleeue that images are vnlawfull, in Tyndals translation, where Idols be forbidden, vsu­ally the word Image is placed in steed thereof, and therefore in S. Iohn, we find it thus trāslated, Babes keep your selues frō ima­ges. 1. Ioh. [...] 21. And for triall, we will, appeale to their later Bibles, printed by Christopher Barker, for there we read thus, Little children keepe your selues from Idols.

PROTESTANT.

Not to stand long in these points so sufficiently answered long agoe, by Doctor Fulke against Martine, and Doctor Whitaker against Reynolds, both of worthy and blessed me­morie first it is so plain, that the Greeke word [...], doth in the proprietie of the word signifie an image that Grego­rie Martine neither can nor doth denie it.

Secondly, as vse hath restrained the name Idoll from the generall signification, to note onely wicked images; and such as are abused to Gods dishonour, so is it well knowen that both in vulgar and popular vse, and also in the gene­rall vnderstanding of all godly Christians, that dote not vpon Popish idols, the name !mage either to repre­sent God, or to worship God or Saint withall, is become as odious as the name Idoll, and nothing diuerse from it. And because the notorious idols of Poperie are in their language [Page 79] called images, and holy images (being indeede most accur­sed idols) not without good cause did that religious Transla­tor turne the Greeke [...] into Iusages in English, that English men might beware of Popish images, which are Idols. Neither is the alteration of the terme in a later tran­slation; any correction of the former, but a variation onely, intending still still the terme Idols to extend it selfe to Popish images as well as heathenish, as you Papists and all men doe well enough perceiue and know.

Thirdly, your owne vulgar translation hath, Filioli custo­dite vos a simulachris, which what is it else in English, but Babes keep [...] your selues from images? For howsoeuer you shift about this word also, and would haue the true notation of it giuen by Lactantius, that it hath his name, à similitudine, that De Orig. erro. lib. 2. cap. 2. is, of likenesse, and is all one with imago, animage (for so Lact­antius manifestly confounds it) and will needs haue it come onely, à simulando, of counterfe [...]ting or feming, yet this poore shift will do you little good. For euen this counterfeiting is not without likenesse. whether the matter counterfeited haue a true being or a false. The strange picture whereof Horace speaketh, De arte poetica, made with a womans head, a horse necke, with other parts borowed of other creatures, and lastly a fishes taile, though it be no likenesse of any thing that hath a being. yet is it a likenesse, if of no more then of the Painters fansie. Simulachrum therefore when you haue sayd all you can, is an image, and so much Doctor Fulke hath proued vnto you out of sundrie Authors. As law­fully Against Gre [...] Mattia. cap. 1. sect. 5. then might Tyndall translate from images as your vul­gar à simulachris.

Lastly, your vulgar translation hath in the second com­mandement, Exod. 20. Similitudinem, Lakenesse of any [...]g. which in the Hebrew is Temunah. Arias Montanus translateth the same word Imagmem, an image, Deut. 4. 6. and your owne vulgar in the same place, Non vidistus aliquam similitudinem in die qua locutus est vobi [...] Dominus in Oreb de medio ignis, [...] forte decepts faciatis vobis sculptam similitudinem, [...]ut imaginem omnium Iumentorum, You savve no likenesse in the day vvherein the Lord spake vnto you out of Oreb, out of the middest of the fire, [Page 80] least you being deceiued make unto you any grauen likenesse, or any [...]mage of any beast, &c. And August, Quest, super Exod transla­teth the second Commandement thus. Non facies tibi idôlum, neque vllum simulachrum quaecunque in coelo sunt sur­sum, wherehy it appeareth first that si [...]ulachrum & imago, differ not, and therefore the vulgar translating simulachris, we may translate images. Secondly, that God in the second commandement commandeth to make no image, and ther­fore againe the Apostles dehortation being deduced out of the second Commandement, Tyndall translated well and ac­cording to the [...]Apostles meaning, Babes or little children keepe your selues from Images. Now then to what streits you are driuen, that you haue no other [...] way to maintaine your Imagerie and worshipping of Images, then by such nice di­stinctions of imago and simulachrum; of Imago and idôlum, betweene which the Scriptures put no difference, if your authenticall translation and Arias Montanus doe rightly translate, I appeale to your owne consciences, if you haue not sold them to maintaine idolatrie, as Ieroboam did him­selfe, and to the indifferent iudgement of all that are not partiall.

PAPIST.

Likewise to bring the Shrines of Martyrs and holy reliques in contempt, and to make simple people beleeue, that it is an hea­thenish custome, they translate thus in the said old Bible, Deme­trius a siluer smith that made siluer shrines for Diana, Ma­litious corruptiō, for in the text there is no mention of siluer shrines, but of siluer temples, and to the fore said later Bible truly transla­teth. See hovv they can accommodate their Bibles to the time: For when Images and shrines were yet standing in England, or fresh in memorie, they fitted their translations accordingly.

PROTESTANT.

To this pidling quarrell little answer needs. The word in that place, is rather to be vnderstood of some coine, wherein the Image and temple of Diana was stamped, then [Page 81] of any Temple or Shrine, yet did not the old Translator without authority so translate: For therein hee followed Homil. 42. in Act. Chrisostome, who cōceiueth that they may be [...] Little Shrines. But there is no neede to inforce this place against your idolatrie to Shrines of Saints and Relikes, the Scriptures do largely affoord reasons & proofes against it, your seruice you do vnto thē, your annexing of power and grace vnto them, your trust you put in them, are so many, & so grosse idolatries, that without streyning any one place of Scripture the first and second commandement do aboun­dantly condemne them.

PAPIST.

As in these points the old translation is corrupt and the later better, so in other things the later is false and the former true, for example, thus they translate: Thou wilt not leaue my soule in Act. 2. 27. graue. Malitious corruption against the descending of Christes soule into hell: For it is contrarte to the originall text and the for­mer translation of Tyndal.

PROTESTANT.

This cauilling obiection hath beene often made by you Papists, and often answered as all men know: and therfore it may seeme a vaine labour to trauaile in satisfying them that will accept no satisfaction. Howbeit for their sakes that peraduenture haue seene your obiection but haue taken no paines to vnderstand the answere, I will briefly set it downe if at least they will vouchsafe to heare it.

First, therefore you cannot be ignorant that the Hebrue word Sheol doth in that tongue properly signifie the graue, as the learned interpreters of that tongue do obserue, and Doctor Fulke against Gregorie Martine hath maintained. Pagnine giues that interpretation, first as the naturall pro­prietie of the word, and accordingly translateth, Gen. 42. 38 Et descendere facutis meam canitiem cum dolore ad sepulchrum, You will bring my gray head with sorrow to the graue. And in this very place. Psalm. 16. 10. Quoniam non derelingues a­ni [...]ans [Page 82] meam in sepulchre. Thou wilt not leaue my soule in graue. And so likewise in other places as Gen. 37. 35. Iob. 17. 13. 1 King. 2. 9. &c. In all which places Arias Montanus alter­eth not his translation, and your Louanian Censors haue ap­prooued it. Is it malitious corruption in our translations and not in yours?

Secondly, by the interpretation of Peter and Paul. Act. 2. 31 & 33. & 13. 35. 36. 37. The Prophet here spake of Christs resurrection, but as touching his retorne from hell, neither in this place do they so interpret Dauids words, nor in any other place rightly vnderstood, make any mention of it. If the place then be to be vnderstood, of the resurrection, and that in both causes, Thou wilt not leaue my soule in graue, nor suffer thine holy one to see corruptiō. As Peter. Act. 2. 31. expres­ly saieth, the words [...] must needes be vnderstood of the place from whence he was raised which was the graue: Neither make it any thing against this sense, that his soule was not in the graue: For first the word [...] heere carieth the same sense that Nepheth doth in the Psalme. It is so cleere that that word must be taken for a dead body oftentimes, as Beza hath obserued, that as Doctor Fulke against Martine hath obserued of fiue places, by Beza alleaged, Leuit. 19. 28. &. 21. 1. & 11. Num. 5. 2. &. 9. 10. where the word Nepheth, must needes haue that sense, your owne vulgar hath so translated it in all these places but the last, and therefore this place being spoken of the resurrection, it may likewise be so vnderstood heere, besides doth not the scripture speaking of Dauid say: His sepulchre remaineth with vs vnto this day? Is not Dauids soule a part of Dauid? yet was not Dauids soule in his sepulchre, nor died, nor was buried, see you not then, that the word Soule before, is put for the manhood as in the article of our faith wee say, Christ died and was buried, not that the whole manhood was buried, but the one part which is yet denōinated of the whole. And while the body lyeth and corrupteth in the graue, the soule in that behalfe suffereth a priuation, although it be not shut vp with the bo­dy in the graue, and thus Dauids soule was and is left in the graue in regard of the body which there remaineth in cor­ruption. [Page 83] Christes soule in like sense was there while the bo­dy lay in the graue, but was not left in the graue, because the body remained not there to see corruption.

And indeed whosoeuer doth rightly and religiously ob­serue the opposition betweene Christ and Dauid, in these words, shall soone perceiue what is heere meant both by [...] and [...]. For of Christ, the Psalmist saith, Thou shalt not leaue my soule in [...]. Of Dauid, Peter saith, He died and is buried, & his Sepulchre remaineth with vnto this day: But his soule remaineth neither in hell, nor properly in the graue; in these things therefore there is no opposition. But this place must be so vnderstood that there may be opposition. That which is of Dauids part is plaine, he is to this day left buried, and in his graue, that which is of Christ must be contrarie, that his body was not left in the graue, vnlesse the sense of this place, and these words be so taken, the Apostle doth not sufficiently prooue, that Dauid spake of the resurrection of Christ. Hee rather spake in your vnderstanding of the deli­uerie of Christes soule out of hell, which might haue beene (if it had pleased him in soule to descend thither) albeit his body had still remained, and seene corruption in the graue. Thus to maintaine your erroneous fansies, you sticke not to ouerthrow a speciall argument, which the holy Ghost vseth against the Iewes, to prooue the resurrection of Christ out of that Psalme.

Thirdly, because you say it is a malitious corruption against the descending of Christ into hell, what if it were translated, thou wilt not leaue my soule in hell, would it prooue that Christes soule was in hell? nothing lesse. Au­gustine vpon that place of the Psalme, Quoniam non derelin­ques animam meam in inferno, maketh this glosse, Because thou wilt neither giue my soule to be possessed of hell, and vpon the next words, Neque dabis Sanctum tuum videre corruptionem, neque sanctificarum corpus per quod & alij sanctificandi sunt, cor­rumpi patieris. Thou wilt not (saith Augustine) deliuer my soule to be possessed of hell, nor suffer my sanctified body, by which others also must be sāctified, to be corrupted: Not to be left in hell, and not to be deliuered vnto hell, with him is all one. It is true there­fore, [Page 84] that God left not his soule in hell, because he neuer de­liuered his soule to hell and so he neuer came there in soule. The same Father writing vpon the 85. Psalme, vpon those words, Eruisti animam meam ex inferno inferiori, conferreth them with the words of this Psalme now in question, Quo­niam no [...] der [...]liquisti animam meam in inferno, and giueth this interpretation of both, Hee saide, that God deliuered his soule from the lower hell, because he deliuered him from such sinnes, by which be might be brought to the torments of the lower hell. As (saieth hee) a man may say to a Phisician, who perceiuing that hee was like to fall into some disease, prescribed him a diet for his health, thou hast deliuered me from a disease, not wherein hee was, but wherein hee was like to be; and to him that defends him, when hee is like to be caried to prison, or in danger to be hanged thou hast deliuered my soule from the prison or from the gallowes, wherein the party neuer was. So Christ taking our sinnes vpon him whereunto hell fire was due, and conflicting with the wrath of God, being suppor­ted by his Father, that hee should not be deliuered euer into the power of hell, confidently reioyceth in God saying, I haue set the Lord alwaies before me, he is at my right hand, there­fore I shall not be mooued, wherefore my heart is glad, my tongue reioyceth, my flesh also shall rest in hope, For thou wilt not leaue my soule in hell (if you will needes so translate) neither wilt thou suffer thine holie one to see corruption, not meaning that he had beene in hell, or was to be in hell, but giuing thanks to God who heard his prayer, and preserued him from hell, as the Apostle saith, Heb. 5. 7. Hee was heard in that which he feared. So you see it may be translated as you would haue it, and yet you get nothing by it.

Lastly, vpon the 85. Psalme aforesaid, Augustine maketh two parts of infernum or hell, the one vpon earth, the other in the graue or region of death whither the dead depart, from whence saieth he God would deliuer our soules by sending his sonne thither. Because of these two hells (saith he) the sonne of God was sent to deliuer vs euerie way, Ad hoc infernum missus est nascendo, ad illud moriendo. To the hell on earth hee was sent when he was borne, to the hell in the graue, or in death [Page 85] when he died: to the which hell, saith Augustine, Christ came that we might no [...] remaine in hell. To the like effect he writeth vpon the 88. Psalme. If Christ went into no other hell then the faithfull goe, hee neuer went into hell of the damned, where the faithfull neuer come. And therefore to conclude, Augustine though he translate in inferno and ex inferno, mea­neth onely the graue, or at the largest, the Region of death whither the dead goe. Say not then that we translate graue against Christs descending into hell: wee may with Augu­stine translate hell, and yet with him not meane the hell of the damned, but the common hell of the dead.

PAPIST.

Likewise to auoide the descending of Christ into hell for the de­l [...]uerie of the olde Fathers, they translate thus, Christ hath once suffered for sinnes, the iust for the vniust, that hee might bring vs to God, and was put to death concerning the flesh, but was quickened 1. Pet. 3. 18. by the spirit, by which also hee went and preached to the spirits that are in prison. In which short sentence be three corruptions, to wit, By the spirit, for In the spirit, By the which, for in the which, and Are in prison, for were in prison. Corruptions I say they are, as I appeale for triall to their former translation, and of purpose to denie that Christ in soule or spirit did descend to the Fathers that were in Limbo, or as it is heere said in prison, when S. Peter wrote his Epistle, as by forcing in the word (Are) in steede of (Were) they would haue the Reader thinke, then wére they not deliuered by Christes descension as we teach, and S. Peter in this place.

PROTESTANT.

It is strange to see how you are blinded and oppressed with a spirit of slumber, that you cannot discerne how im­possible it is to fit this place to your Limbus.

First, if Abrahams bosome be this imagined limbus, nei­ther may these disobedient in the dayes of Noe, whom the Scripture calleth the world of the vngodly, 2. Pet 2. 5. be placed in Abrahams bosome, being for eating and drinking, [Page 86] and all sensuality more like to the rich glutton then to Abra­ham: neither may the olde Fathers for whose deliuerance Luk. 21. Christ descended, as you say, be branded with the note of disobedience, to whom the holy Ghost beareth witnesse, that they died in the faith, and had good report for their faith. This Heb. 11. 13. 39. place therefore speaking of Christes comming in the Spirit, and preaching to the Spirits that were disobedient in the daies of Noe, cannot be applied to the Fathers in Abrahams bosome, which also very vnfitly may be termed a prison.

Secondly, if it be yeelded that Christ went in soule to the place called Abrahams bosome (as we denie not but he did, it being all one with that Paradise, wherein Christ promised that the penitent theefe should be with him (yet if your Lim­bus be in the Region of hell & a border of hell, Christ could not descend into it, when he went into Abrahams bosome; for betweene Hell and Abrahams bosome there is a great Chaos, or as Augustine saith, Quidam biatus multum ea sepa­rans, Epist. 99. ad E [...]od. a certaine wide gap much separating them, a wide space of distance that none can come out of the one Region into the other, and therefore Augustine resolueth, that Abrahams bo­some, which is an habitation of a kinde of secret quietnes or rest, is at no hand to be thought or beleeued to be any part [...]ll. In so much that if the Scripture had said, that Christ when he died went into Abrahams bosome, Augustine mer­uaileth whether anie man would haue beene so bolde, as out of such words to affirme, that Christ descended into hell.

Thirdly, Augustine beating his head about that place, as Euodius offered it vnto him, namely to see how it might be applied to Christes descending into hell, findes so many difficulties in it, that hee wisheth Euodius rather to consider whether the whole place belong nothing at all to hell, but rather to those times, the paterne whereof Peter applied to the times present, to shew that those which now beleeue not the Gospell preached, are like those that beleeued not, and perished in the daies of Noe. Thus applying the place to the example of those daies, Non suspi­cemur (saith Augustine) quod apud inferos ad faciendos fideles at (que) liberandos Euangelium predicatum sit. Let vs not imagine that the Gospell vvas preached in hell, to make men faithfull, and to [Page 87] deliuer them, as if anie Church vvere there. To the other sense which Euodius had taken hold of from others, Augustine saith, The author of at seemes to haue beene drawen, because Peter said, hee preached to the Spirits that vvere shut vp in prison, as if (saith he) it might not be vnderstoode of their soules, vvho then were shut vp in the darknes of ignorance as in a prison, to whō then liuing, the building of the Ark by Noe, was after a sort a preaching before the sloud, as at this day the daily building of Gods Church is a preaching to the vnbeleeuers before the day of iudgement, and so those times are a paterne of these. Thus hauing answered this obiection he proceedeth to answere another, that might be made against this latter sense, namely that Christ in those times was not come, and therefore could not then preach, Let this trouble no man (saith Augustine) Nondum enim vene­rat scilicet in carne, veruntamen ab initio generis humani ipse vti (que) non in carne sed in spiritu veniebat: quod autem dixi in spiritu ve­niebat, Et ipse quidem filius in substantia deitatis, quoniam corpus non est, vti (que) Spiritus est. Christ (saith Augustine) vvas not then come, to vvit, in the flesh, Howbeit from the beginning of man­kinde hee came, not indeede in the flesh, but in the spirit, and that vvhich I said, he came in the Spirit, is thus to be vnderstood, that the sonne of man in the substance of his godhead, because he is not a bodie, is vvithout doubt a spirit. This (saith Augustine) the verie vvords of Scripture in hand, doe sufficientlie manifest to them that take diligent heede vnto them, and then repeating the words of the text, maketh this paraphrase of his owne, Chri­stus mortificatus carne, viuificatus autem spiritu, In quo spiritu adueniens praedicauit, & illis spiritibus qui incredali fuerant al [...] ­quando in diebus Noe, quoniam priusquam veniret in carne pro nobis moriturus, quod semel fecit, saepè antea veniebat in spiritu, ad quos volebat visis eos admoneus sicut volebat, vti (que) in spiritu, quo spiritu & viuificatus est: quum in passione esset carne mortifi­catus. Quid est enim quod viuificatus est spiritu, nisi quod eadem caro qua sola fuerat mortificatus viuificante spiritu resurrexit? Christ, saith he, was mortified in the flesh, and quickened in the spi­rit, in vvhich spirit he came & preached euen to those spirits which had bene sometime disobedient in the daies of Noe; for before he came in the flesh to die for vs, vvhich he did once, he came many [Page 88] times before in the spirit to vvhom hee vvould, vvarning them by visions as he would, in the spirit doubtlesse, by the which spirit hee was also quickened, wherein his passion he was mortified in the flesh. For what meanes if that he was quickened by the spirit, but that the same flesh wherein alone Christ was mortified, rose againe by the quick [...]ning spirit? This exposition of Peters words (saith Augustine) if any man mislike or thinke not sufficient, let him seeke how he may vnderstand them of bell, and if he can solue the doubts which! haue before mentioned, (to wit, against the point of hell) let him shew it me, which if be doe, these words may be vn­derstoode both waies, but sure this exposition cannot be conuinced of anie falshood. I haue beene the larger in dilating the learned and holy iudgement of Augustine in this behalfe, that all men, euen the vnlearned may see, how when the Fathers make against you, you will not see it, nay rather (as your Rhemistes doe) you will inforce things spoken by them, as Annot. 1. in 1. Pet. 3. 19. by Augustine in this Epistle, but not approoued by them, as if they were deliuered out of their best iudgement.

Fourthly (to come to your quarelling obiections) the two first corruptions wherewith you charge vs, to wit, that wee translate, By the spirit, for in the spirit, and againe, By the which, for In the which you may as well charge Augustine withall as vs, who hath gone before vs in so vnderstanding, transla­ting, and expounding. For by the word Spirit, vnderstan­ding the Diuinitie of our Sauiour Christ, it cannot be saide that his Diuinitie was quickened, or hee quickened in the Diuinitie, but by the Diuinitie his dead body was quicke­ned. And so Dionysius Carthusianus, a man not misliked by your selues, vnderstandeth & expoundeth the latter words, By which also. Ʋult ita (que) (saith he) princeps Apostolorum asserere quod Christus qui nostris temporibus carne indutus veniens pradi­cauit hominibus [...]ter salutis, ipse etiam & ante diluuium eis qui tum increduls erant spiritu veniens praedicauit; Ipse nam (que) per spi­ritum sanctum erat in Noe, sic (que) beatissimus Petrus in verbis istis apert [...]ssimè innuit Christi diu [...]nitatem, & vtrius (que) natur [...] vnam esse personam in ipso. The Prince of the Apostles (saith Dionysi­us) meaneth to affirme, that Christ who in our time came cloa­thed with the flesh, and preached vnto men the way of salu [...]tion, [Page 89] himselfe also before the floud comming in spirit, preached to them vvho then vvere vnbeleeuing: For he himselfe by his Spirit vvas in Noe, &c. And so S. Peter in those vvords doth manifestlie im­plie the diuinitie of Christ, and that in him there is one person of two natures. He mētioneth indeed that other opiniō of Lam­bus, but makes small reckoning of it, as to belong any thing to this place. And heere by occasion of that which Dionysius hath well obserued, I will not let it passe vnpointed at, how you damme vp so notable a streame of the Scriptures, ser­uing to prooue the Diuinitie, and the vnion of two natures in the one person of Christ, as this place affoordeth, one­ly to haue some blinde pretence for your imagination of Limbus.

But besides for answere to your accusations, if you please to compare that which S. Paul saith, 1. Tim. 3. 16. Manifested in the flesh, iustified in the spirit you may finde the opposition alike in both, betweene flesh and spirit, that is, humanitie and Deitie. The words In spirit in the first place, Haymo interpreteth, Perplenitudinē Diuinitatis, Dionysius Carthusianus per operationē Spiritus sancti. As Christ was iustified, that is, declared migh­tilie to be the sonne of God (as Rom. 1. 4.) by the spirit, that is, by his diuinity, So was he quickened or raised againe from the dead, as Augustine before expounded by the spirit, that is, his diuinity.

The third corruption wherewith you charge our transla­tion is, Are in prison, for were in prison. If you vnderstand Prison as Augustine doth, though you reade Were in prison, what get you by it? if by prison the place of vnbeleeuers and disobedient persons after this life be meant, as the no­ting of their sinne, and of their punishment so coupled to­gether doe import, what is that but hell, wherein they were not when Christ in Spirit, or By his Spirit preached vnto them, but now are, and therefore vnderstanding Christ to haue preached to them in Noes time (as Augustine doth) you cannot say they were then in prison when Christ preached, but rather are now for their disobedience.

Lastly, it might be heer noted, how you are faine to fetch about to fit this place to your Limbus. For whereas Peter speaketh of those that were in Noes time disobedient, and [Page 90] saieth of them that they are in prison, you to draw it to Lim­bus, which is a hard matter to match them with faithfull A­braham, that are noted by the name of disobedient, and the world of vngodly are faine to deuise that some of them re­pented in the very drowning, and so after some paines felt in purgatorie, were translated to Limbus (for so Dionysius Annot. 2. in 1 Pet 3. 20. sets downe the opinion of some, and your Rhemistes: closely insinuate as much) such turning of deuises, and coyning of conceites you are put to, before you can hansomly make any thing of this place to serue your turne. But when all comes to all, though you teach that the Fathers were deliuered out of Limbus by Christes descension. yet Peter teacheth no such matter, as before hath beene made plaine vnto you.

PAPIST.

Lastly, to prooue that Priests may marrie, they translate Saint Paul thus, Haue we not power to lead about a vvife being a sister, 1. Cor. 9. 4. putting in the word (wife) for (woman) most falslie as their elder translation telleth them. And if vvee may beleeue S. Paul him­selfe, he was vnmarried. For so he saith plainly in the same Epistle, 1. Cor. 7. 8. and therefore what is this but plaine corruption?

PROTESTANT.

First, what neede we straine any Scripture to prooue this point, when the Apostle in plaine words saith, that a Bishop 1. Tim. 3. 2. must be the husband of one wife?

Secondly, your translation rather straineth and mispla­ceth the words, putting that first which is second. For in the Apostles words Sister is in the first place, in your translation you haue put it in the second place, to make as if it were a li­mitation of the generall word Woman onely to Sisters, that is beleeuing women. Whereas indeede the Apostle hauing first saide a sister neede not add a Woman, which is neces­sarily implied in the name Sister, and therefore addeth the word [...] for distinction, to put a difference of the Sister hee meant from all other Sisters. Hee therefore [Page 91] meant a Sister being a wife, the fittest companion of their iourneies.

Thirdly, it agreeth neither with the Apostles words, nor his purpose to interpret his words as you vse to doe of such like women as followed our Sauiour Christ, and ministred vnto him and his, of their substance: For what power or au­thoritie Luk. 8. 3. had the Apostles to leade about such women after them? but to leade about a wife they had power. Besides, the purpose of the Apostle is to shew that himselfe and Bar­nabas had right to put the Church to more charge by lead­ing such a one about with them: but if he had meant such women as following them in their iourneies, ministred vnto them of their substance, to haue such in their company, had beene an ease and no charge to the Church, the contrarie whereof the Apostle plainely expresseth, in giuing reason why he and Barnabas might haue done so, Who goeth a war­fare at any time of his owne cost? &c. If vve haue sowen vnto you Verse 33. spirituall things, is it a great matter if we reape your carnall? The Church therefore of their carnal substance, must haue borne the charge of such a sister lead about, and therfore no doubt Math. 8. 14. the Apostle meant a wife, who going with her husband, there could be nothing said against it, and for her husbands sake, the Church must also prouide for her. To which charge because the Apostle put them not when hee might haue done it, hee hath therefore the more to say in his owne de­fence.

Fourthly, the Scripture recording of Peter that hee was maried, and auncient writers that other of the Apostles and Disciples were maried, namely Ambrose in 2. Cor. 11. All the Apostles excepting Iohn and Paul had vvines, and Eusebius h [...]st. Eccles. lib. 30. cap. 30. out of Clemens Alexandrinus, of Pe­ter, Philip, and (as he saith Paul) the Apostles words direct­ly point at that liberty in them, in the words as well as other Apostles and the brethren of the Lord and Cephas. And verie plainly out of the report that Eusebius maketh out of Cle­mens, euery mā may see that in those times the word [...] was taken for a wife. Paul (saith hee) in a certaine Epistle, maketh mention of his wife, whom hee therefore did not lead about [Page 92] with him, that more easily and freelie he might performe his mini­sterie. Howbeit, if Paul were vnmaried, yet is it no corrup­tion so to translate his words, for as much as hee had that li­bertie, though he vsed it not.

Lastly, you knowe that the Scripture saith, Mariage is ho­nourable amongst all men, and the bed vndefiled. What more Heb. 13. 4. cleare and full allowance can there be, that Priests may law­fully marie, except you will say, that priesthood depriueth them of the honour of Gods ordinance, which he hath san­ctified to all men. Hauing generall and speciall warrant for Priests mariage, besides the place in question, what need we force it? you rather haue forced single life vpon Gods Ministers against his manifest word.

PAPIST.

If thē they be learned malition flie corrupt the text, who wil trust them with the interpretation? as for vnlearned Protestants, how can they gather a true sense out of a corrupted sentence? can a streight line be drawen by a crooked Rule?

PROTESTANT.

Nay rather if the Popish Rabbies haue first set vp many a crooked practise both in doctrine and Gods worship, and then will haue the line of interpretotion drawen by the crooked rule of Popish practise secundum currentem Ecclesiae sensum. Who will trust them to be interpreters of scriptures, who are conspired to maintaine whatsoeuer their Synago­gue hath corruptly practised? For how can a streight line be drawen by a crooked rule? or how can the vnlearned Pa­pists haue any meanes to trie the true interpretatiō of scrip­tures, euen in matters necessarie to saluation, who must of necessity sel their soules into the hands of Popish Hucksters, to receiue whatsoeuer sense of scriptures they thrust vpon them, and aboue all, must receiue Popish practise as their Creede? and as the practise changeth, so must the sense of Scriptures change, and be one to day, another to morrowe, [Page 93] one this yeare, another the next, according to Cusanus, his rule, Intellectus currit cumpraxi. The vnderstanding of the scrip­tures runneth with the practise, which practise interpreteth the Nicol. Cusan de author. eccles. & Conc. Sup. et cont. scriptu. scripture at one time after one sort, at another time after another sort. This is the constancie of Popish faith, whereof Papists boast so much.

PAPIST.

Out of the premisses we may learne the cause why we haue such vnity in faith to be, for that we acknowledge an infallible Iudge, for the expounding of the Scriptures, and though in other thinges wee haue dissention, as fell out likewise betwixt Saint Paul and Bar­nabas, and no time hath been free from such scandals: yet we keep all one and the same Catholike faith through the world, and the cause why the Protestants haue such mortal dissention in matters of faith without all hope of agreement, is for that they acknowledge 1 Ioh. 4. 1. not any infallible and certaine Iudge for the interpretation of the scriptures: For they will be tried by nothing but by the Scripture, and if we presse them that the scriptures may be falsly expounded, thē they repaire to the spirit, and if we tell thē of Iohn, that we must not beleeue euery spirit, then for trial of the spirit, back againe they post to the scripture, and so if they be vrged on forward, they runne round frō the scripture to the spirit, & frō the spirit to the scripture world without end. And so whilest their spirits agree not togei­ther, we see them about manie articles of faith, as about the des­cending of Christ into hell, about the lawfulnesse of Archbishops, and Bishops, like the campe of the Madianites, to haue turned their weapons to mutuall destruction, and to lie lugging together Iudges, 7. by the eares, in endlesse brawles and contentions.

PROTESTANT.

If it were true that you boast of, that you haue such vnity of your Popish faith, yet could you from such vnity no better proue the truth of your Religion, then from the consent of the Israelites, erecting the calfe in the wildernes, or from the consent of the Iewish Synagogue, against our [Page 94] Sauiour Christ, crying Crucific him, crucifie him, or from the consent of all Israel in the daies of Achab and Iezabel, being confederate against Elias alone, you can prooue that the Calfe was the God that brought the people out of the land of E­gypt, or that Baal was the true God, or that our Sauiour Christ was a deceiuer as the high Priestes termed him: Of such vnity, God hath forewarned vs to take heede by the Prophet Esay. Say ye not a confederacie to all them, to whom this people saieth a confederacie, but rather to the law and to the testi­monie, Esa. 8. 12. vers. 20. ver. 9 against which though the people be gathered together in beapes, they shall be broken in peeces, and though they take counsell together, yet it shall bee brought to nought, though they pro­nounce vers. 10 a decree, it shall not stand. The Kings of the earth stand vp, and the rulers take councell together against the Lord, and against Psal. 2. 2. his Christ. Not onely Tyrants without the Church, but euen within the Site of the church, those that springing out of the Church, vsurpe tyranny ouer the Church, and against the Lord Christ do make their decrees with a common con­sent, that if any man confesse Christ, he shall be cast out of the Sy­nagogue, Ioh. 9. 22. and hauing obtained power to sitt in mens consci­ences, oppresse them by pretense of sacred authority to make rules of faith, as high Priests and Pharisees, deale with their officers sent to apprehend Christ. Doth any of the rulers Ioh. 7. 48 ver. 49 or of the Pharisees (say they) beleeue in him? They make shew (I grant) to square their faith by the law, but with great craft they arrogate to themselues that they onelie knowe the Lawe. This people (say they) which know not the law are accur­sed. If any man teach or beleeue otherwise then pleaseth thē, forsooth they know not the Lawe. These Rabbies chalenge onely to themselues that they only haue the forme of know­ledge and truth in the lawe that they must be the guides of the blinde, forsooth they only haue eies, all other are blinde. This is your Popish vnity: these be your infallible Iudges for the expoūding of the scriptures: you first deuise a forme of faith most seruiceable to your idle bellies, your Bishops Miters, your Cardinals hattes, your Popes triple Crowne, thē you cospire vpon a prescription to haue in your hands the onely commande of scriptures, and their sense and ex­position, [Page 95] and for preseruation of this your tyranny, and to secure the hope of your conspiracie, you reduce all to the Popes Brest and Chaire, who is not without the Diuels wisedome, not to be diuided against himselfe. And so how fallible soeuer your Iudge be, to be deceiued himself, and to deceiue others that he before them, and they after him may tumble downe into the bottomlesse pitte of hell by hy heapes, yet you are sure he will neuer faile you. Now surely this is a blessed vnity: for which you are so much beholding to your infallible Iudge.

But is it true that you boast of that, by reason you ac­knowledge one infallible Iudge for the expounding of the scriptures, you keepe all one, and the same Catholike throughout the world? I will not spend time in ripping vp the infinite dissentions that are among your schoole Tribes, least you shist off and say, that their dislentions were in o­ther things, and not in matters of faith. The true doctrine of originall sinne is a matter of Faith, not onely in those re­mote points. 1. That there is originall sinne. 2. That by pro­pagation it is spreade ouer all mankinde from Adam. 3. That the effectes thereof are all the calamities which continually waite vpon mans life; (Which are the pointes whereof as being certaine Defen fid. Trid. lib. 50. cleere, the Church as Andradius saith, hath giuen her sen­tence. Quod vniuerso mortalium generi naturae necessitate insidet & cum quo omnes illas calamitates hausimus quibus hominum vit a continenter premitur. That by necessitie of nature it cleaueth to all mankinde, wherewithall we haue drawen all those calamities wherewith mans life is continually pressed) But chiefly in discer­ning and defining what originall sin is, and wherein it doth consist. To shew you one Catholike faith in this point: I will not reckon vp the sundrie opinions of originall sinne, whereof your selues as yet could neuer agree, I will take the confession of the Councell of Trent: For thus they say. Inter Sess. 5. decret. 1. pluri [...]a mala quibus ecclesia his nostris temporibus perturbatur, eriam de peccato originali, eius (que) remedio, non solum vetera, sede­tiam noua dissidia excitanit [...]i. Among many euils wherewith the Church of God in these our times is troubled, the Diuel hath rais­ed vp not only old, but new dissentiōs about originall sin, and the re­medie [Page 96] thereof. Was your Church destitute of such an infalli­ble Iudge for the expounding of scriptures, vntill the late Councell of Trent? if it were, your infallible Iudge is very young, yet you see for all your infallible Iudge both of old, and vntill, and in the times of that Councell, your Church was troubled with many dissentions, both about originall sinne, and the remedie thereof, which I trowe, you will not deny to be points of the Catholike faith, Andradius after this Councell confesseth no lesse. Ita peccati huius immanissi­oni natura Defens. fid. Trid. lib. 5. latet, & atrocissimi Syderis omnia populantis ratio est innoluta, vt nulla in re sit doctorum hominum mator varietas & cōcertatio. i. The nature of this most monstrous & haynous sin, that makes hauocke of all, is so intricate, that about no point there is greater varietie and contention among learned men. Whereun­to he ioyneth another question no lesse controuerted (as he saieth) among your excellent wits, to wit, how originall sinne which he calleth Tetrū & immane facinus, a foule and monstrous wickednesse could cleaue vnto little children, that scarcely liued to see the light, nor euer had anie power to will? but perhaps the Councell of Trent made an end of these dissensions, and so expounded the Scriptures, that now you haue but one and the same Catholike faith throughout all the worlde in this point. No verily, if Andradius were priuie to the Councels meaning: For he affirmeth, that the controuersie which the auncients had about the true definition thereof, hath not yet bin vllius Concilij authoritate sedata, appeased by the authoritie of no Councel, & therfore free for euery man, to hold what o­pinion he likes best of this controuersie not sufficiently in­lightened by the Church. Wherfore except your Catholike faith in this point be quot capita tot sēsus, how many heads so ma­ny opiniōs, so that your infinit dissent may be allowed for cō ­sent, and your many and discording opinions, may goe for one and the same Catholike faith, in this great point of faith you haue either no faith, or a faith of many fashions varia­ble according to the forge it comes out of. In this funda­mental principle, the discouerie (I meane) of originall sinne, to be as the Apostle calleth it, the flesh vvherein dwelleth no good Rom. 7. 18. verse. 20. thing, that sinne that dwelleth in vs, vvherewith vve are so yoaked, [Page 97] that it is alwaies present with vs, a lawe in our members, rebel­ling against the lawe of the minde, and leading vs captiue to the verse 21. lawe of sinne, that is in our members Which vntill it be know­en and verse 23. discerned, euen concupiscence condemned in the verse. 7. lawe is not knowen to be sinne, when it is knowen it makes vs crie out and bewaile our misery, and to confesse with Da­uid: vers. 24. Beholde I was borne in iniquitie, and in sin hath my mother conceiued me, it conuinceth that all the frame of the thoughts of Psal. 51. 5. mans heart, is onely euill continuallie, that in vs, that is in our flesh dwelleth no good thing it prooues vs to be dead in trespasses and sinnes, and therefore to be the children of wrath. Whereby we are stripped of all conceit of free will, of all presumption Gen. 6. 5. of our owne righteousnes, and is the most vniuersal school­maister to lead all men vnto Christ: In this so high a prin­ciple of faith (I say) your Church, and his children hauing either no faith at all, or a faith of many colours, and manie Eph. 2. 1. 3. shapes, notwithstanding your infallible iudge, boast no longer of your one, and the same Cutholike faith in all the world.

Your vaine and foolish contumelie which you cast vpon the Protestants, that for triall of the scriptures they repaire to the spirit, and for triall of the spirit, post backe againe to the scrip [...]res, and sorunne round from the Scriptures to the Spi­rit, and from the Spirit to the Scriptures world without end, be­wraies in you great ignorance of our doctrine: For we di­uide not the Spirit from the Scriptures, nor the Scriptures from the Spirit, that we should be faine to runne or go from the one to the other: onely in the Scriptures we heare or learne of the Spirit, whatsoeuer we know in the Scriptures, we know it by the teaching of Gods Spirit that speaketh in them, whatsoeuer we learne of the Spirit, we learne it by, and out of the Scriptures, when we repaire to the Sriptures, we repaire to the Spirit, and when we go to enquire of the Spirit we go to the Scriptures. If the God of this worlde had not blinded your eies, that the light of this truth cannot shine vnto you, you would neuer haue vpbraided vs with posting to and fro, and running round.

But because you tell vs of roundes, I pray you see what [Page 98] roundes your selires make in a matter of Faith of greatest consequence in all your Religion, you giue out this con­clusion as an article. Subesse ro [...]no Po [...]tifici omni creaturae est Extr. com de Ma. ior, &. c. obed. [...]nam. Sactam. de necessitate salutis. To be subiect to the Pope of Ro [...]e is n [...]cessae­rie to saluation for euerie creature, we require you to proue it, you alleage that the Pope is the heade of the vniuersal Church, we yet aske for proofe, you bring vs: Tues Peirus & super hane petrā &c. Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I wil build my Church, & tibi dabo claues to thee I wil giue the keies of the king­dome of heauen, & pasce oues me as, feed my sheep, feed my lambes. We tell you Peter is one stone in the building, but no rock, or if you will needes haue a rocke, his confession, or Christ whom heconfessed, is the rocke or foundation whereon the Church is builded: we tell you the keies were giuen to Pe­ter not alone, but to the rest of the Apostles, and hee with them commanded to feede sheepe and lambes: and further, whatsoeuer was giuen to Peter, extendeth not to the Pope, who is not Peter, you say that Peter receiued those honours for himselfe, and his successors, and that the Church is built vpon him and them, as a rocke, and that he for himselfe & his successors receiued the keies, and left them to the Pope of Rome, who now is Shepheard ouer sheepe and lambes, & all this you will proue by the scriptures, we r [...]uire you to proue that the Scriptures haue this sense, you fetch your proofe from the Fathers, we bring the Fathers as cleerly, yea more cleerely for our interpretation, then you can for Concil. Nicen. Conat. Afric. yours: you thrust on forward to the Coūcels, we bring you the authority of Councels to make the Pope no more thē a peere among other Patriarkes, yea to cutte him off from medling out of his Dioces, now you post to Councels con­firmed by the heade, that is the Pope, whom either with Conncels, or without, you make your only infallible Iudge Are you now where you began? do you thus daunce in a rounde and tell vs of roundes? The Pope is head of the vniuer­sall Church. Who saith so? the Scriptures? who shall inter­pret the Scriptures? the Fathers. Fathers not agreeing who shall iudge betweene them? Councels: Councels agree not, who then shall strike the stroke? the Pope. And so the Pope [Page 99] is heade of the Church, because the Pope will be so. With these rounds you haue made giddie and brai nesicke innu­merable poore soules. God in his mercie stablish their hearts with grace, that their eies may see the pitte before they fall into it.

Now I pray you what be those matters of Faith wherein the Protestants haue such mortall dissention, without any hope of agreement? they are many you say, reckon them, that we see how many they be? The descending of Christ into hell, and the lawfulnes of Archbishops and Bishops. Is the questi­on about Archbishops & Bishops a matter of faith? among Papists it may well be so, who hold the Popes supremacy for the first and chiefe, yea in effect for all the articles of their faith, but surely Protestants holde it onely for a mat­ter of order appertaining to the externall gouernement of the Church, which is farre from a matter of faith, your ma­ny matters of faith then are come to but one, and that such a one as in ancient times was no article of faith at all, in your Romane Creede, no nor yet receiued in the East Churches, In. expos. Symboli. as Ruffinus affirmeth, Sci [...]naū est quod in Ecclesiae Romana Sym­bolo non habetur additum We, must know that it is not found ad­ded in the Creede of the Romane Church, neither is the canse re­ceiued among the East Churches. And being receiued there Epist. 99. was little certainty of the sense and meaning of it. Ruffinus takes it to be all one, with Sepultus est, he was buried. Augu­stine De Genes ad Lit. lib. 12. cap. (as is afore shewed) denies that Abrahams bosome is any part of holl, and else where confesseth that neuer yet found that it is called hell, where the soules of the righteous do rest. And so little light can be founde of any such conceite as Papists De Christi. ani­ma lib. 4. cap. 5. haue of Christs descending into hell, that Bellarmine saith: Non est necessaria presentia animae Christi &c. The presence of Christs soule to inlighten the Fathers with the diuine vision of him, is not necessarie, yet it seemed to be of congruitio that it should be present while that was in doing. He makes it not of necessity, but of congruity, and that but in seeming neither, this is (as touch­ing the sense) but a weake matter of faith to obiect vnto vs, that we dissent about it: For we dissent not about the words of the article, but receiue it, we are also agreed that it must [Page 100] beare such a sense as may stand with the scripture and the analogie of faith, then although we differ about the pro­per sense of the words, yet differ we not about any matter of Faith, as you do about originall sinne.

PAPIST.

Seeing therefore the Church of Christ continueth visible for [...]uer, as ours hath done and not theirs: wee haue the auncient Fa­thers for patrones of our cause, they be destitute of all antiquitie: we haue the truth in many points according to their owne confessi­one, and they consequentlie falshood: wee haue the Scriptures and their true interpretation, they onelie the bare name, and priuate er­roneous exposition: I conclude, that whosoeuer will be saued, must not heare them, but embrace our old Catholike & Apostolike faith.

PROTESTANT.

The persons of all the members of the Church of Christ, as men haue beene in their times visible, are and shall be to the worlds end; they haue beene also generally to some of their fellow members visiblie in their times, as members of the body of Christ: howbeit, the visibility of Churches established, and in their assemblies, worshipping God in the word Sacraments and prayer they haue often wanted, as in the Egyptian captiuitie, the daies of Elias, the captiuitie of Babylon, the dispersion caused by Sauls persecution, and vn­der the ouer-spreading tyrannie of the Romish Antichrist, driuing the woman that brought foorth the man-childe into Reuel. 12. 13. 14 the wildernesse, into a p [...]e prepared for her of God. Du­ring which captiuitie of the Church in seuerall times, either heathenish idolatry as in Egypt, or Church idolatry, as the golden calues, and the seruice of Baal before and in the daies of Elias, or carnal worship as among the Iewes in the disper­sion afore-saide, or meere Atheisme as vnder Sanballat and Tobijah, or the mysterie of iniquity vnder the shew of pseu­dochristianitie, as in the Apostasie of Antichrist hath borne the sway in the world as the onely Religion. Such is the vi­sibility [Page 101] of your Romish apostafie, like the visibility of Ierob [...] ­ams calues of Baals Church of the Scribes and Pharisies and in pretence to build with the I [...]wes, that is the true Church of Christ semblant to Sanballat and Tobijah, or at the be [...] to Eliashab their friend. In this visibility you haue set foorth many goodly Pageants to dazell the eies of all those in whō [...]he God of this world hath blinded their ei [...]s, that the light of the 2 Cor. 4. 3. 4. glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them: as the state of Popes and Cardinals, the Babylonish magnificence of your temples, beset with sumptuous idols, the stage play of your Masse, with your whole Antichristian tyrannie, which you haue vaunted to the world, as the harlot her bedecked bed Prou. 7. 15. 17. with ornaments, carpets, and layes of Egypt, perfumed with Mirrhe, Aloes, and Cinamon, and like vnto the picture of Apoc. 17. 3. 4. 5. your Church, the mother of whoredomes and abhominations, that sitteth vpon a scarlet coloured beast, and is arrayed in purple and scarlet, and guided with gold, and precious stones, and pearles, and hath a cup of gold in her hand full of abhominations, and filthinesse of her fornications. Of such visibility wee giue you leaue to boast, and reioyce that wee haue no part with you in your glory, least wee should also haue part with you in your plagues.

And albeit, GOD hath graunted more visibility to our Churches, then you can indure with patience to behold, yet make wee not out of such visibility any demonstration that our Church is the true Church.

That faith, that worship which by open confession and practise, was visible in our Sauiour Christ, and his blessed Apostles, which in their holy writings inspired of God, they haue deliuered to be seene, read, and vnderstood to be held and obserued of all the true Church of God, is a demon­stratiue and infallible visibility, which wheresoeuer it is to be seene and discerned, prooueth and conuinceth that they are the Church of Christ. This is the onely visibility wher­by the true Church is to be discerned and knowen, which we haue often prooued, and we hope is manifest to all mens consciences to be found in our Church, and you shall neuer be able while the world standeth to make any sound proofe, [Page 102] that your Church hath any such visibilitie, but manifestly the contrary.

What patronage the auncient Fathers lend vnto your cause, hath beene before shewed where you alleadged anie thing out of them, and often hath beene further in all the fundamentall points, wherein you [...] dissent from vs and from the truth. You imitate some rites twice dead and bu­ried since they vsed them: you are confident to affirme some things whereof they doubted: you take vp their errors for principles of your faith: you abuse and peruert their words and phrases to a contrarie meaning, and in these onely (as touching your Popish religion) you follow the Fathers; but their indicious testimonies touching the fundamētall points of Doctrine, as originall sinne and the fruit therof, concupiscence, free will, instification, the vse of good workes, the Sacraments and diuerse other points you will not see, or else you peruert as the instable doe the Scriptures to their owne destruction. 2. Pet. 3. 16.

Compare what they write in one place, with that which they write in another, note the occasion, marke the end, dis­cerne the aduersarie they haue to deale with, consider the straine of their moued affections acknowledge their tropes and figures of speech, you shall finde the Fathers to yeeld you but small helpe, and to be but slender patrones of your apostasie: on the contrary, you shall perceiue that as wee haue the eldest antiquity, for proofe whereof we cite the re­cords of Scripture, so haue wee the body of all consequent antiquity in all matters of faith, touching the Deitie; the Tri­nitie, prouidence, touching Christ, his person, natures, offices, media­tion, and our redemption by him touching the holie Ghost, and his operation in the Church [...]ouching the Catholike Church, the com­munion of Saints, and all necessarie parts thereof, touching remissi­on of sinnes, touching the resurrection and eternall life. In other matters, if some where we varie from the Fathers, as they va­ried one from another, and some of them from themselues, we ha [...]e their leaues. I haue before shewed you what diffe­rence. Cont. Iulian. Pelag. lib 1. Augustine makes betweene Fundamenta fides & Alia de quibus doctrissimi at (que) optimi Catholicae regulae defensores, salua fidei compage non consonant, betweene the Foundations of faith, [Page 10] and other pointes whereabout the learned stayd best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree yelw, [...]hout impeachment to the frame of faith.

To your vaine pretence of our consent in any point of your Popish faith, enough hath beene said before.

As for the Scriptures you haue them indeene, and you keepe them so close that neither your selues wil search them as you ought, nor suffer those that wold. You banish the Ori­ginals, and binde to a corrupt translation as Authon [...]cal. You suffer not the Scriptures to be vulgarly translated and read. Thus you haue the Scriptures as in a prison, but as you should haue them to make them common to all men by reading preaching, and teaching, you haue them not.

The interpretation of Scriptures you haue such, as may stand with your Popish practise, which is the priuie rule of your interpretation, and such as it pleaseth the Pope to pre­scribe you. But true interpretation of Scripture according to the plainer principles thereof, and the rule of faith (which Augustine so much commendeth) you neither haue nor wil hade; nor suffer others to haue if you may let it: and so your interpretation is priuate, as either being the Popes, or pro­ceeding from your owne faction addicted to your receiued practise, but ours is the interpretation of the Spirit of God, testified by himselfe in the Scriptures inspiried by him, as by the Scriptures and the rule of faith we prooue, and therefore blasphemously by you called priuate.

Seeing therefore the visibility of your Church is in those things which may be seen partly among the heathen, partly in a false Church, which the longer it continueth, the worse. You haue but some shew of the Fathers on your side, when indeede they are against you, and so haue not the antiquity of truth but of error, you neither haue the Scriptures as you should haue them for your selues and others, nor their true sense and interpretation, but onely of your owne making: your Popish faith, though it be olde in it selfe, yet in respect of the daies of our Fathers, our Sauiour Christ, the Apostles, and Prophets, the daies thereof haue been but few and euill, and therefore it is not the olde Catholike & Apostolike faith, [Page 104] whatsoeuer this false and forcelesse Reasoner hath sayed.

A short Addition.

Beleeue assuredly, and holde for certaine, that no Heretike and Schismatike, that vniteth not himselfe to the Catholike Church againe, how great almes so-euer hee giue, yea or shed his bloud for Christes name, can possibly be saued. For manie heretikes by the cloake of Christes cause, deceiuing the simple suffer much, but where no true faith is, there is no iustice, because the iust liueth by faith: so it is also of Schismatikes, because where charitie is not, no iustice can be there, which of they had, they would neuer plucke in peeces the bodie of Christ which is the Church.

A Sentence of S. Austin worthie to be noted, of such as thinke that men which liue vertuouslie, may goe to heauen, though they beleeue not the Catholike faith, nor be members of his true Church. For as most certaine it is, that none which beleeue not all the arti­cles of the Catholike faith, can be saued, though to the eies of the world be liue or die neuer so well; for without faith it is (as Paul saith) vnpossible to please God. And S. Athanasius telleth vs, that whosoeuer will be saued, before all things it is necessarie that he holde the Catholike faith, which faith without euerie one shall keepe whole and inviolate, without doubt he shall perish for euer: so no lesse certaine it is, that although we beleeue neuer so well, yet if we liue not according to that faith, and so abstaine from communi­cating with heretiques in their seruice and Sacraments, we cannot be saued. For hee that shall denie Christ before men, Christ also will denie him before his Father in heauen, as himselfe saith. And if we may without sinne temporize and frame our conscience accor­ding to the law, when shall we take vp our Crosse and follow Crist, as himselfe willeth vs? And vvhat meant the blessed Apostles and so manie 1000. of Martyrs to shed their bloud for Christ, of an in­ward and secret faith might haue brought them to heauen, and they might outwardlie haue yeelded to Princes lawes, and keepe their conscience to themselues? This doctrine Christes seruants know not it is deuised only for the colde comfort of such as loue this vvorld too much, and feare persecution. But let such thinke of this saying [Page 105] of our Sauiour, Feare ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soule, but rather feare him that can de­stroy both body & soule into hel: and let them imitate noble E­leazarus, Mart. 2. 28. who rather made choise of cruell death, then to dissemble in the cause of religion, and do that with the scandal of others, which of it selfe was no sinne at all.

PROTESTANT.

Augustines Sentence De fide and Pet. Diac. cap. 39. is one­ [...] thus much: Formissimè tene & nullatenus dubites quemlibet hareticum, siue schismaticum, in nomine patris & filij, & spiritus sancti baptizatum, si ecclesiae Catholicae non fuerit aggregatus quantascun (que) eleemosinas fecerit, & si pro Christi nomine sangui­nem fuderit, nullatenus posse saluari, that is, Firmly beleeue, & by no meanes doubt that euery heretike or schismatike, being baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Sonne, and of the holy Ghost, how great almes soeuer he do, yea though hee shed his bloud for Christs name, yet if he be not gathered to the Catholike Church, by no meanes can be saued. This sentence though not word for word, yet in effect you rehearse, but you ad therunto more words, whereof Augustine in that place hath neuer a one, & yet in the end conclude a sentence of S Austen, as if all that goeth before were his sentence in that chapter. It seemeth therefore that you read not Augustines words your selfe, but borrowed them some where without discerning where Au­gustines words ended. The rest is a truth, but not true that Augustine there hath such a sentence: what would you now inferre out of this sentence of Augustine? First that men though they liue neuer so vertuously, yet if they beleeue not the Catholike faith, nor bee members of his true Church cannot be saued. Secondly, that if men beleeue neuer so well, yet if they liue not according to the faith, and so absteine from com­municating with heretiks in their seruice and sacraments they can­not be saued, and so proceede on to condemne those that out­wardly haue yeelded to Princes Lawes, and keepe their consciences to themselues. All which, may with no gaine to you be yeel­ded, it the chiefe termes be well vnderstood, to witte, Ca­tholike [Page 106] Church, Catholike Faith, and Heretikes or Schismatikes: For if the Popish Church be not the Catholike Church, nor the Popish Faith, the Catholike Faith, nor they Heretikes or Schismatikes that stand in opposition to Poperie, or do de­part from Popish communion, then what gaine you by this whole addition? But it is a world to see into what a maze you haue ledde the poore sheep of your flocke, that no soo­ner they heare Catholike Church, or Catholike Faith, but by and by they thinke of Popish Church, and Popish Faith, betweene which, there is no lesse difference, then betweene light and darknes: And againe, when they heare of Her [...] ­tikes they presently thinke of Protestants, whereas indeed if they had eyes to discerne of heresie or an Heretike they would rather applie it to Papistes: But I heartily wish all blinded Papistes aduisedly to consider of the first conclusion which you draw out of Augustines words: That although men liue and die neuer so vertuously, yet except they be­leeue the Catholike faith, and be members of the true church they cannot be saued. The name of good workes is amiable to all well minded men, and by pretense of great zeale for good workes. your faction hath crept into the mindes of many, that in great ignorance and simplicity had a good meaning: Howbeit by good workes you chiefly meane those workes that bring some gaine vnto your selues, otherwise tollerating and dispensing with the breach of Gods com­mandements in any point, whereby your Popish kingdome takes no harme, or is not hindred: Such therefore as haue blindly followed you out of an oppinion that you are the onely patrone of good workes, I wish to observe that by your owne confession, though a man liue or die neuer so well yet he cannot be saued except he hold the Catholike Faith & be a member of the true church, because without faith he cannot please God. Doth it not then behoue all men to aduise with them­selues well how they may know the Catholike Faith, & the true Church: There were that sayed they were Iewes & were the Synagogue of Sathan The Donatists claimed vnto themselues Apoc. 39. the title of Catholike Church, and Catholike Faith which other Heretikes both haue done & may do as well as they. [Page 107] Let them not therefore thinke or beleeue that the Popish Church and faith, is Catholike, because Papists say so, but let them examine your Church and Faith, whether it be Catholike or no, which onely by the Scriptures they shall be able infallibly to discerne. In the Scriptures (saith Augu­stine to the Donatistes) we haue learned Christ, and in the Scrip­tures Epist. 166. we haue learned the Church: These Scriptures we haue cō ­mon to vs both, why do wee not in them reteine in common both Christ and the Church? & in the end of the same Epistle; Be­hold the scriptures are common to vs both; Behold where we haue knowen Christ; Behold where we haue knowen the Church. This learned and godly Father, when both sides challenge to themselues that they are the Catholike Church, that they haue the faith of Christ, calles them to the trial of scriptures as the surest meanes to know both Christ and the Church by. By this rule if they shall be tried that make a spoyle of many soules vnder the colour of Catholike Church, and Catholike Faith they shall be found to be deceiuers, and no better then the Synagogue of Sathan.

Wherefore let the ignorant and seduced Papistes, vnto their zeale of good workes, labour to ioyne a right iudge­ment in matters of faith, from point to point in all those Ar­ticles which Athanasius affirmeth to be so necessarie, that ex­cept a man beleeue them whole and inuiolate, he shall perish for e­uer. The blinde ordinary faith of Papists to beleeue as the Popish Church beleeueth, is not that Catholike faith which Athanasius saith: Euerie one must beleeue that will be saued. Since then by your owne confession, where no true faith is, there is no iustice, it behoueth all men to be well assured of the faith they hold, not resting their faith in the wisedome of men, but in the power of God, that is in the Gospell, which is, the power of God to saluation to euery one that belee­ueth, by which only faith, the iust man shal liue, and not by such Rom. 1. 16 a faith as is built vpon the Popes power, to make what faith he list.

The Second thing you woulde inferre of Augustines words is, that although we beleeue neuer so well, yet if we liue not according to faith, and so absteine from communicating with He­retikes [Page 108] in their seruice and sacraments we cannot be saued. If the termes be rightly vnderstood the doctrine is true & whole­some: for men that beleeue must liue according to faith, & all true beleeuers must absteine from communicating with Heretikes, but vnderstanding Faith for Popish faith, and Heretikes for those that are opposite to Poperie, that is in­deede true beleeuers, vnder these cloudy and mistie words you secretly infuse into the minds of those that are seduced by you, the poyson of disloialtie, treason & rebellion, which is now the principall Article of your Popish faith, for the, Popish faith is that it is of necessity of saluation that euery soule be subiect to the Pope, that the Pope hath power to accurse and d [...] ­pose Princes, and absolue their subiects from all their allegeance that no man ought to obey a prince excommunicate by the Pope, or deposed by him: These are the chiefe articles of your popish Creede: Whosoeuer beleeueth and obeieth these shall vn­doubtedly be saued, how be it in the Popes heauen, that is in Gehenna, in he [...], fire, whither the Pope dra [...]eth innumerable soules Dist. 40. si Papa. with him to be tormented with euerlasting fire. Your meaning then is to breede a resolution in the hearts of all those whom you cal Catholikes in this land, that although they be neuer so deuout Papists, yet if they walke not according to their Popish faith, that is, if they bee not true to the Popes triple crowne if they practise not by al meanes to reduce his tyrā ­nie into this kingdom, if they be not at all times traytors in heart & purpose, & as soone as opportunity serueth traytors in action, they cannot be saued. This is the wholesome do­ctrine of Poperie, as appeareth both by the Bull of P [...]us S. against Q. Elizabeth of blessed and princely memorie, and by Nicholas Sanders, who thus writeth. Huc igttur iam De visib. mouarc. lib. 2. cap. 4. tandemres deducta est, &c. Now then the matter is brought to this point, that an Hereticall Kinge must bee remooued from the kingdome which hee holdeth ouer Christians. And because the crime for which hee is to be remooued is committed against faith, doubtlesse it belongeth chiefly to the Bishops both to pronounce the Kinge himselfe an Heretike, or otherwise an Apostata, and also to declare that his subiects are from thence foorth free of yeelding o­bedience vnto him, & that they ought to do their best that another [Page 109] may withall speed be supplied in his roomth. Who seeth not that vt­terly it abhorreth from the saluation of mens soules to suffer him to raigne ouer the faithfull who is himselfe an infidell? O miserable Popish faith which driueth all subiects of protestant, that is christian Princes either to be rebells and traytors as a matter appertaining to the saluation of their soules, or else vtterly to despaire of saluation, for that you adde of com­municating with those whom you call Heretikes, it is some part indeed of your Popish faith, that your adherents ought to absteine from our seruice and sacraments, and most wil­lingly you would haue all Papists so to do, because you make reckoning that the more desperat they grow herein, the more neere and apt they are to rebellion and trayte­rous attempts, but yet rather then altogether to driue them from you, you will moderate the rigor of your faith in this point, and permit them to serue the times, alwaies prouided that you be sure of their hearts, and that they faile you not when opportunity serueth, as appeared in the faculty gran­ted to Parsons and Campia [...]: But marke what this forcible Reasoner saith. Such doctrine (to wit as this faculty contei­neth) is deuised only for the cold cōfort of such as loue the world to much. Howsoeuer the Pope dispense with Church Pa­pists, this Ghostly Father and such like tell them, that such dispensations are but cold comfort, & so slender reckoning they make of them, that they call them no better then Tem­porizers and such as frame their consciences to the lawes, and finally such as loue the world too much. If the Popish faith, were the true Christian faith, no doubt this reprehen­sion were iust: It behooueth therefore all seduced Papists to trie the Popish faith by the word of God, whether it be the true faith or not, I speake not of those Catholike points of faith which the popish Synagogue holdeth in common with the church of Christ, but of that Apostasie which is ri­sen vp in the Church and vnder the collour and name of the Church to beguile the vnstable and vnbeleeuing.

Beware of false Prophets (saith our Sauiour Christ) which Matth 7 15. Operam perfect. 10 Matth. 7. hom. 19. come vnto you [...] Sheepes clothing, but inwardlie they are reuen­ing wolues. Christians (saith Chrysostome) are rightly called [Page 110] sheepe, but the sheeps garment is the shew of christianitie A wolfe many times weares a sheeps garment, that is, makes a coūtersait shew of religiō in sēblance either of those works that being rightly done are the workes of sheepe, or of the practise of that religiō, which is the religiō of sheep. ‘Coun­fait almes (saith Chrisostom) is a sheeps garment but not a sheeps worke: Counterfait praier is a sheeps garment, but no sheeps worke Counterfait fasting is a sheepes garment but no sheepes worke. So are all other shewes of pietie wherwith rauening wolues cloth thē ­selues.’ The Popish agents make great vaunts of almes, pray­er and fasting, by boasting of good things to insinuate them selues into honest mindes: This ostentation is nothing else but a sheepes garment. Againe, in practise of religion they make a greate shew, and thereby dazell the eies of the igno­rant, for (to vse the words of Chrysostome) out of their simpli­tie and zeale, but not according to knowledge, thus they say. ‘How can I say that he is no christian, whom I see to confesse Christ, to haue an Altar, to offer the sacrifice of bread and wine, to read the holy scriptures, to haue all the order of priesthood. Where­vnto Chrysostome maketh this answere. That euen an Ape hath the members of a man, and in all things like a man, shall we therefore say that it is a man. So likewise Heresie hath and imi­tateth all the misteries of the church, but Heretikes are not the church, yea (saith Chrisostom) they shew to be grounded christi­ans, & they haue their churches, nay they gouerne churches, & yet openly anaucentiously subuert them, yea they are so multiplied that christians seeme rather to bee wonderers or deceiuers then they, yet are they inwardly rauening Wolues, because they seeke not to saue but to destroy Christians, as the nature of the VVolfe is.’ Hitherto Chrysostome hath set forth the faire and deceiueable shewes that false Prophets make both of their works and of their faith. wherein they would seeme to be sheepe, but are indeed rauening Woolues. Now let vs see what aduise he giues to beware of them, and to trie them. ‘By their fruites yee shall knowe them. The fruite of a man (saith Chrysostome) is the confession of his mouth, and the worke of his conuersation. If therefore thousee a Christian man, consider by and by whether his confession agree with the Scriptures; if it doe, he is a true Christi­an: [Page 111] but if it be not as Christ hath commaunded, he is a false Chri­stian. For so Iohn writing in his Epistle of heretikes, said not, If anie man come vnto you not hauing the name of Christ, Say not vn­to him God speed, but if any man bring not this doctrine.’ He reser­red the triall of Christianitie, not to the name of Christ, but to the Confession, because not only the name maketh a Christian, but also the truth of Christ: for many walke in the name of Christ, but few in his Truth. Then cōing to the works of con­uersation. ‘Doth a sheep (saith he) at anie time persecute the Wolfe, or rather the Woolfe the sheepe. So Cain persecuted Abel, and not Abel Cain Ismael Isaac, and not Isaac Ismael; Esau Iacob, and not Iacob Esau, the Iewes Christ, and not Christ the Iewes, he­retikes Christians, and not Christians heretikes. Therefore by their fruites yee shall knowe them. For if a Woolfe be couered with a sheepes skinne, how shall a man knowe him, but either by his voice or by his deede?’ In which comparison, you may there see how Chrysostom proceedeth farther. A litle after, he saith, ‘But what fruits do they bring forth, wounds, troubles, & other mischiefs. As a thorne or a bramble, of what side soeuer you view it, hath prickles, so of vvhat side soeuer you consider the seruants of the di­uell, they are full of iniquities. If he speake, he speakes deceitfullie: if he holde his peace, he museth of euill. If he be angrie, he is mad, if he deale patientlie, he vvaiteth for a time to hurt, and considereth of some opportunitie vvhen he may doe mischiefe. If he do euill, he is not ashamed, [...]f he doe vvell, hee doth it for vaine glorie because of men.’ Thus farre Chrysostome.

Briefly to make Application. The Popish Church is of great authoritie, euen for the very names sake of the Church with all seduced Papists. Their ostentation of almes, pray­er and fasting, makes a great shew in their eies Their con­fession of Christ, their altars, their pretended sacrifice, their baptisme, their reading of Scriptures, and shew of Fathers, their priestly order do seeme to be infallible signes of a true Church. Howbeit, as you haue seene, Chrysostome affirmeth that heretikes haue all these, yet are they no more the true Church for these then an Ape is a man, for the resemblance he hath of the parts of mans body. Their multitude especi­ally considering the reach of long time, makes many sup­pose [Page 112] it impossible that they should be false Churches. Yet Chrys [...]stome sheweth, that heerein heretikes are so farre be­fore Christians, that Christians rather seeme to be deceiuers, or new vpstart and vagrant persons. What then is to be done to discerne them? Try them by their fruits, that is the confession of their faith, and the workes of their conuersati­on. And how shall we trie the confession of their faith? by the Scriptures (saith Chrysostome) and by the commaunde­ment of Christ. But Papists admit no triall of their faith, but by themselues they are the Church. The Pope is the su­preame Pastor: he that will not heare this Church and this Pastor, is held Anathema as an heathen or Publican. What is this else but that which Chrysostome saieth, they ruling the Church, doe openlie and licentiouslie subuert the Church: for they prescribe their owne practise for the rule of faith, and take away all indifferent meanes of triall, and will be both ma­kers and iudges of faith. This is the confession of their faith, that they are the Church, and you must beleeue it, and there­fore beleeue that all is true which they say, & whatsoeuer in­terpretation of the scriptures they deliuer, it is the true sence of the scriptures, what heresie by this prescription may not be maintained? yea what trial of spirits is left to the Church, if any one spirit must be thus beleeued without submission to be tried by the Scriptures? Come to their conuersation. Are not their fruites vvo [...]nds, troubles, and manifold mischiefes, deposing of Princes, inciting of subiects to rebellions, pro­curement of forraine inuasions, impoysonings and murthers of Princes, and all that stand in their light, threatnings of stabbings, and cutting of throats, finally vnderminings of Parliaments, and conue [...]ances of powder to blowe vp King, Queene Prince Nobles, Bishops. Iudges, Commons, & that without any distinction euen in a moment? Can they charge Protestants whō they call heretikes, with such sauage, wool­uish, ye diuellish, h [...]llish, and stygian practises? They draw vnto them all the sonnes of Belial, whom they can intise out of all protestant kingdomes and states, to make continuall imployment of them, to worke the subuersion of their na­tiue Countries, to infect with butcherly and Scith [...]an cruel­tie [Page 113] the mindes of subiects, by desperate furies to drive men to infamous and vntimely temporall deaths, and to eternall damnatiō, not caring what become of their bodies or soules so their turnes be serued. Can the religion of Protestants be stained with such barbarous and bestiall crueltie? They re­ceiue the Sacrament in way of obligation to commit mur­ders, to practise rebellions, to subuert kingdomes; yea, they promise before hand, and graunt great pardons to such as they procure to vndertake such villanies. They make Mar­tyrs of those, who for barbarous treasons, rebellions, and murthers, haue iustly suffered such punishment as they deserued both by the law of God and man. Are these the works of sheepe or of woolues? By their fruites therefore you shall knowe them: they are on euery side full of sharpe and cruell prickles. If they speake they equiuocate, if they be silent, there are seauen abhominations in their hearts, as the sequele hath euer prooued; if they be angry they are mad, nothing will serue but inuasions, rebellions, poysonings, powder treasons, and all maner fell and cruell practises: If they be patient, they waite a time to hurt, and in the meane time they are preparing some mischiefe, as manifold expe­rience hath prooued, and the sunne hath often seene: If they do euill, they are not ashamed, as the desperate obstinacie of the late powder traytors shewed. If they do any thing well, they doe it for vaine glory to beseene of men, and to get a name to themselues. Is this the Church whereof euery man must be a member, or else he cannot be saued? is this the Ca­tholike faith? is this to liue according to the faith? will any man be so blinded, that for loue or zeale to such a Syna­gogue, or for awe or feare of the curse of such cursed wor­kers, he will refuse to ioyne with the Protestants in their ser­uice & Sacraments? My deare brethren, put no trust in any childe of man, which by Augustines confession our Sauiour Christ forbiddeth, Pin not your saluation vpon his sleeue, that may go to hell himselfe, I meane the Pope. Beware of them that outwardly weare onely sheepes clothing, but inwardly are very rauening Woolues, as you finde by their fruits. Trust not them that will be tried for their truth and [Page 114] honestie by none but themselues, suspect their honestie that shut vp the Scriptures from you, which our Sauiour Christ cōmanded all men to search. Finally, inquire whether Christ or any Apostle, or any holy Councel or Father did euer put poyson, sword, or powder into mens hands, to murther the sacred persons of Kings, to ruinate whole Kingdomes, and to promote the faith of Christ by poyson, sword, and fire. If you finde any such president, hearken to this forcible reaso­ner, and all other Iesuites and Seminaries, refuse our Chur­ches, our seruice, and Sacraments. If not, disclaime that reli­gion, that faith, that seruice, that Sacrament that serueth to combine such conspiracies, that must get vp and prosper by such monstrous and endlesse crueltie. God of his mercie open your eyes, that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ Iesus may shine vnto you, that you may be able to discerne the mysterie of iniquitie, which of long time hath wrought in the Kingdome of Antichrist, that you may knowe the synagogue of Satan, from the Church of Christ, and at length come out from Babylon, and escape the wrath present and to come, and finally be saued by the only faith of Iesus Christ, to whom be glory for euer. Amen.