The copies of certaine letters vvhich haue passed betweene Spaine and England in matter of religion Concerning the generall motiues to the Romane obedience. Betweene Master Iames Wadesworth, a late pensioner of the holy Inquisition in Siuill, and W. Bedell a minister of the Gospell of Iesus Christ in Suffolke.

The copies of certaine letters vvhich haue passed betweene Spaine and England in matter of religion Concerning the generall motiues to the Romane obedience. Betweene Master Iames Wadesworth, a late pensioner of the holy Inquisition in Siuill, and W. Bedell a minister of the Gospell of Iesus Christ in Suffolke.

Table of contents

Title page

TO THE MOST HIGH AND EXCELLENT PRINCE, PRINCE CHARLES.

THE CONTENTS.

The heads of the Motiues reduced vnto twelue Chapters, answering vnto the like figures in the Margint of the first of Master WADESWORTHS Letters.

The Copies of certaine Letters, which haue passed betweene Spaine and England in matter of RELIGION.

Salutem in Crucifi•o▪ To the Worshipfull my good friend Mr. WILLIAM BEDE•• ▪ &c.

To the Worshipfull his respected friend Master WILLIAM BEDELL, at his house in Saint Edmundsbury, or at Horinger, be there deliuered in Suffolke.

To the Worshipfull my very good friend Master IAMES WADDESWORTH at Madrid, deliuer this. Salutem in Christo Iesu.

To the Worshipfull Master WILLIAM BEDELL at Horningesherth neere Saint Edmundsbury in Suffolke, these. Salutem in Crucifix•.

To the worshipfull my very good friend M. IAMES WADDESWORTH, at Madrid, deliuer this. Salutem in Christo Iesu.

To the worshipfull his much respected friend Master WILLIAM BEDELL at Horningshearth by Saint Edmundsbury in Suffolke, these.

The Letter of Master D. HALL, mentioned in the formerwith Master WADDESWORTHS marginall notes.

To my Reuerend and worthy friend Master Doctor HALL, at Waltham deliuer this.

To the worshipfull my very good friend Master IAMES WADDESWORTH at Madrid deliuer this. Salutem in Christo Iesu.

THE COPIES OF CERTAINE LETTERS, &c. Salutem in Christo Iesu.

CHAP. I. Of the Preamble. The titles Catholique, Papist, Traytor, Idolater.

CHAP. II. Of the Contrarietie of Sects pretanded to bee amongst Reformers.

CHAP. III. Of the want of a humane externall infallible Iudge and Interpreter.

CHAP. IIII. Of the state of the Church of England, and whether it may be reconciled with Rome.

CHAP. V. Of the safenesse to ioyne to the Roman being confessed a true Church by her opposites.

CHAP. VI. Of fraud and corruption in alleaging Councels, Fathers, and Doctors.

CHAP. VII. Of the Armies of euident witnesses for the Romanists.

CHAP. VIII. Of the Inuisibilitie of the Church, said to bee an euasion of Protestants.

CHAP. IX. Of lacke of Vniformitie in matters of Faith, in all ages and places.

CHAP. X. Of the originall of reformation in Luther, Caluin; Scotland, England, &c.

CHAP. XI. Of lacke of succession, Bishops, true Ordinations, Ord•rs, Priesthood.

CHAP. XII. Of the Conclusion. Master Waddesworths agonies and protestation, &c.

Faults escaped.

§

§

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THE COPIES OF CERTAINE LETTERS WHICH HAVE passed betweene SPAINE and ENGLAND in matter of RELIGION.

Concerning the generall Motiues to the Romane obedience.

Betweene Master IAMES WADESWORTH, a late Pensioner of the Holy Inquisition in Siuill, and W. BEDELL a Minister of the Gospell of Iesus Christ in SVFFOLKE.

LONDON Printed by William Stansby for William Barret and Robert Milbourne. 1624.

TO THE MOST HIGH AND EXCELLENT PRINCE, PRINCE CHARLES.

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I Should labour much in my excuse, euen to mine owne iudgement, of the highest boldnesse, in daring to present these Papers to your Highnes, if there were not some releeuing circumstances, that giue mee hope, it shall not be disagreeable to your higher goodnesse. There is nothing can see the light, which hath the name of Spaine in it, which seemes [Page] not now properly yours, euer since it pleased you to honor that Countrie with your presence. And those very Motiues to the Romane obedience, which had beene represented vnto you there, in case you had giuen way to the propounding them, are in these Letters charitably and calmly examined. Betweene a couple of friends, bred in the same Colledge (that of the foundation of Sir WALTER MILDMAY of blessed memorie, whom with honor and thankfulnesse I name) chosen his Schollers at the same election, lodged in the same Chamber, after Ministers in the same Diocesse. And that they might bee matchable abroad as well as at home, attendants in the same ranke as Chaplaines, on two Honorable Ambassadors of the Majestie of the King your Father in forraine parts; the one in Italie, the other in Spaine. Where, one of them hauing changed his profession, and receiued a pension out of the holy Inquisition house, and drawne his wife and children thither, was lately often in the eyes of your Highnesse: very ioyfull I suppose to see you there, not more I am sure, [Page] then the other was solicitous to misse you here. These passages betweene vs I haue hitherto forborn to divulge, out of the hope of further answer from Master Wadesworth according to his promise; though since the receipt of my last (being silent to my selfe) he excused him in sundrie his Letters to others by his lack of health. Nor should I haue changed my resolution, but that I vnderstand that presently after your Highnesse departure from Spaine, hee departed this life. Which newes though it grieue me as it ought in respect of the losse of my friend, yet it somewhat contenteth me, not to haue beene lacking in my endeauour, to the vndeceiuing a well-meaning man touching the state of our differences in Religion; nor as I hope to haue scandalized him in the manner of handling them. And conceiuing these Copies may be of some publike vse, the more being li [...]ted vp aboue their owne meannesse by so high patronage, I haue aduentured to prefixe your Highnesse name before them. Humbly beseeching the same, that if these reasons be too weake to beare vp the presumption of this Dedication, [Page] it may bee charged vpon the strong desire some way to expresse the vnspeakeable joy for your Highnesse happy returne into England, of one amongst many thousands,

Of your Highnesse most humble and deuoted seruants W. BEDELL.

THE CONTENTS.

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1. A Letter of Master Wadesworth, contayning his Motiues to the Romane obedience. Dated at Seuill in Spaine, April 1. 1615. printed as all the rest out of his owne hand-writing. pag. 1.

2. Another Letter from him requiring answere to the former, from Madrid in Spaine, April 14. 1619. pag. 16.

3. The answere to the last Letter, Dated Aug. 5. 1619. pag. 17.

4. A Letter from Master Wadesworth vpon the receipt of the former. From Madrid. Dated Oct. 28. 1619. receiued May 23. 1620. pag. 23.

5. The answere to the last Letter. Iune 15. 1620. pag. 25.

6. A Letter from Master Wadesworth, from Madrid, Iune 8. 1620. pag. 29.

7. A Letter of Master Doctor Halls sent to Master Wadesworth, and returned into England with his marginall notes. pag. 30.

8. A Letter returning it inclosed to Master Doctor Hall. pag. 36.

9. A Letter sent to Master Wadesworth, together with the Examination of his Motiues. Octob. 22. 1620. pag. 36.

[Page] 10. The Examination of the Motiues in the first Letter. pag. 39.

The heads of the Motiues reduced vnto twelue Chapters, answering vnto the like figures in the Margint of the first of Master WADESWORTHS Letters.

Chap. I.

OF the Preamble. The Titles Catholike, Papist, Traytor, Idolater. The vniformitie of Faith in Protestant Religion. pag. 39.

Chap. II.

Of the contrarietie of Sects pretended to be amongst Reformers. Their differences, how matters [...]f Faith. Of each pretending Scripture, and the holy Ghost. pag. 44.

Chap. III.

Of the want of a humane externall infallible Iudge and Interpreter. The obiections answered. First, that Scriptures are oft matter of controuersie. Secondly, that they are the Law and Rule. Thirdly, that Princes are no Iudges. Fourthly, nor a whole Councell of Reformers. The Popes being the Iudge and Interpreter ouerthrown by reasons; And by his palpable misse-interpreting the Scriptures in his Decretals. The style of his Court. His Breues about the Oath of allegeance. p. 50.

Chap. IIII.

Of the state of the Church of England, and whether it may be reconciled with Rome. Whether the Pope be Antichrist, PAVLO V. VICE-DEO, OVR LORD GOD THE POPE: the Relation de moderandis titulis, with the issue of it. pag. 72.

Chap. V.

Of the safenesse to ioyne to the Romane being confessed [Page] a true Church by her Opposites. Master P. Wottons peruersion printed at Venice. The badge of Christs sheepe. pag. 82.

Chap. VI.

Of fraud and corruption in alledging Councels, Fathers, and Doctors. The falsifications imputed to Morney, Bishop Iewell, Master Fox, Tyndals Testament: Parsons foure falshoods in seuen lines. A taste of the for [...]eries of the Papacy. In the ancient Popes Epistles, Constantines Donation, Gratian; The Schoolemen and Breuiaries by the complaint of the Venettan Diuines. The Fathers not vntoucht. Nor the Hebrew Text. pag. 91.

Chap. VII.

Of the Armies of euident witnesses for the Romanists. Whence it seemes so to the vnexpert Souldier. The censure of the Centurists touching the Doctrine of the Ancients. Danaeus of Saint Augustines opinion touching Purgatorie. An instance or two of Imposture in wresting Tertullian, Cyprian, Augustine. p. 108.

Chap. VIII.

Of the inuisibilitie of the Church said to bee an e [...]asion of Protestants. The promises made to the Church, and her glorious Titles, how they are verified out of Saint Augustine; falsly applied to the whole visible Church, or representatiue, or the Pope. pag. 118.

Chap. IX.

Of lack of vniformitie in matters of Faith in all ages and places. What matters of Faith the Church holds vniformely; and so the [...]. Of Wicliffe and Hus, &c. whether they were martyrs. p. 12 [...].

Chap. X.

Of the originall of Reformation in Luther, C [...]luin, Scotland, England Whether King Henrie the eight were a good head of the Church. Of the Reformers in France and Holland. The originall growth and supporting of the Popes Monarchie considered. pag. 122.

Chap. XI.

[Page]Of lacke of Succession, Bishops, true Ordinations, Orders, Priesthood. The fabulous Ordination at the Nags-head examined. The Statute 8. Elizabeth. Boners sleighting the first Parliament, and Doctor Bancrofts answere to Master Alablaster. The forme of Priesthood inquired of. pag. 139.

Chap. XII.

Of the Conclusion. Master Wadesworths agonies and protestation. The protestation and resolution of the Author, and conceipt of Master Wadesworth, and his accompt. pag. 158.

The Copies of certaine Letters, which haue passed betweene Spaine and England in matter of RELIGION.

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Salutem in Crucifi [...]o▪ To the Worshipfull my good friend Mr. WILLIAM BEDE [...] ▪ &c.

Master Bedell,

MY very louing friend After the old plaine fashion, I salute you heartily, without any new fine complements or affected phrases. And by my inquirie, vnderstanding of this Bearer that after your being at [...] ▪ you had passed to Con [...]tantinop [...]e. and were returned to Saint [...], in [...] and with health, I was exceeding glad thereof▪ for I wish you well as to my selfe: and hee telling mee further that to morrow, God willing▪ he was to depart from hence to imbarke for England, and offering [Page] me to deliuer my Letters if I would write vnto you, I could not omit by these hastie scribled lines to signifie vnto you the continuance of my sincere loue, neuer to be blotted out of my brest (if you kill it not with vnkindnesse like Master Ioseph Hall) neither by distance of place, nor successe of time, nor difference of Religion. For (contrarie to the slanders raysed against all, because of the offences committed by some) wee are not taught by our Catholike Religion, either to diminish our naturall obligation to our natiue Countrie, or to alter our morall affection to our former friends.

And although for my change becomming Catholique, I did expect of some Reuilers to be termed rather then prooued an Apostata, yet I neuer looked for such termes from Master Hall, whom I esteemed either my friend, or a modester man; whose flanting Epistle I haue not answered, because I would not foile my hands with a Poeticall Rayler, more full with froth of Wordes then substance of Matter, and of whom according to his beginning, I could not expect any sound Arguments but vaine Flourishes, and so much, I pray, let him know from me if you please.

Vnto your selfe, my good friend, who doe vnderstand better then Master Hall, what the Doctors in Schooles doe account Apostasie, and how it is more and worse then Heresie, I doe referre both him and my selfe, whether I might not more probably call him Heretike, then he terme me at the first dash Apostata: but I would abstaine from such biting Satyres. And if he, or any other, will needes fasten vpon [Page] me such bitter termes, let them first prooue that in all points of faith I haue fallen totally from Christian Religion, as did Iulian the Apostata: For so is Apostasie described and differenced from Heresie. Apostasia est error, h [...]minis baptizati, contrarius fidei Catholicae ex toto: and, Haeresis est error pertinax, hominis baptizati, contrarius [...]idei Catholicae ex parte. So that hee should haue shewed, first, my errors in matters of Faith; not any error in other Questions, but in decreed matters of Faith (as Protestants vse to say) necessarie vnto saluation. Secondly, that such errors were maintayned with obstinate pertin [...]cy, and pertinacy is, where such errors are defended against the consent and determination of the Catholik▪ Church; and also knowing that the whole Church teacheth the contrarie to such opinions, yet will persist in them: and yet further, if there bee any doubt, he must manifest vnto me which is the Catholique Church. Thirdly, to make it full Apostasie, he should haue conuinced mee to haue swarued and back-slidden (as you know the Greeke word signifies) like Iulian renouncing his baptisme, and forsaken totally all Christian Religion▪ a horrible imputation, though false, nor so easily prooued as declaymed: But I thanke God daily that I am become Catholique, as all our Ancestors were till of late yeeres, and as the most of Christendome still be at this present day, with whom I had rather bee mis-called a Papist, a Traytor, an Apostata, or Idolater, or what he will, then to remayne a Protestant with them still For in Protestant Religion I could neuer finde vniformitie of a settled faith, and [...]o no quietnesse of [Page] conscience, especially for three or foure yeeres before my comming away, although by reading, studying, praying, and confe [...]ring, I did most carefully and diligently labour to finde it among them.

But your contrarietie of Sects and opinions of [...], Zwinglians, Caluinists, Protestants, [...], Cartwrightists, and Brownists, some of them damning each other; many of them auouching their Positions to be matters of Faith (for if they made them but Schoole questions of opinion onely, they should not so much haue disquieted mee) and all these being so contrarie, yet euery one pretending Scriptures, and arrogating the Holy Ghost in his fauor. And aboue all (which did most of all trouble me) about the deciding of these and all other Controuersies which might arise, I could not finde among all these Sects any certaine humane externall Iudge, so infallibly to interpret Scriptures, and by them and by the assistance of the Holy Ghost so vndoubtedly to define questions of Faith, that I could assure my selfe and my soule, This Iudge is infallible; and to him thou oughtest in conscience to obey and yeeld thy vnderstanding in all his determinations of Faith, for he cannot erre in those points. And note that I speake now of an externall, humane, infallible Iudge. For I know the Holy Ghost is the Diuine internall and principall Iudge; and the Scriptures be the Law or Rule by which that humane externall Iudge must proceede. But the Holy Scriptures being often the Matter of Controuersie and somtime questioned which be Scriptures, and which bee not, they alone of themselues cannot be Iudges: and for [Page] the Holy Ghost likewise euery one pretending him to bee his Patron, how should [...] certainly know by whom he speaketh, or not? For to Men we must goe to learne, and not to Angels, nor to God himselfe immediately. The Head of your Church was the Queene (an excellent notable Prince) but [...] Woman, not to speake, much lesse to be Iudge in the Church; and since a learned King, like King Henrie the eight, who was the first temporall Prince that euer made himselfe Ex Regio jure, Head of the Church in spir [...] tuall matters, a new strange Doctrine, and therefore iustly condemned by Caluin for monstrous. But suppose hee were such a Head, yet you all confesse that hee may erre in matters of Faith. And so you acknowledge may your Archbishops and Bishops, and your whole Clergie in their Conuocation-house euen making Articles and Decrees: yea, though a Councell of all your Lutherans, Cal [...]nists, Protestants, &c. of Germanie, France, Engiana, &c. were all ioyned together, and should agree all (which they neuer will doe) to compound and determine the differences among themselues, yet by your ordinarie Doctrine of most Protestants they mig [...]t in such a Councell erre, and it were possible in their Decrees to be deceiued. But if they may erre, how should I know and be sure when and wherein they did or did not erre? for though on the one side [...] posse ad esse non valet semper consequentia. yet [...] valet, and on the other side [...] potentia, quae nunquam ducitur in actu [...]. So that [...] neither in generall nor in particular, in puo [...]que [...] priuate, in head nor members, ioynely nor [...]euerally [Page] you haue no visible, externall, humane, infallible Iudge, who cannot erre, and to whom I might haue recourse for decision of doubts in matters of faith. [...] pray let Master Hall tell me, where should I haue fixed my foot? for God is my witnesse, my soule was like Noah Dou [...], a long time houering & desirous to discouer land, but seeing nothing but moueable and troublesome deceiueable water, I could find no quiet center for my conscience, nor any firme foundation for your faith in Protestant Religion. Wherfore hearing a sound of harmon [...]e and consent, that the Catholique Church could not erre, and that onely in the Catholique Church, as in Noahs Arke was infallabilitte and possibilitie of saluation; I was so occasioned, and I thinke had important reason, like Noahs Doue, to seeke out, and to enter into this Arke of Noah. Hereupon I was occasioned to doubt, whether the Church of England were the true Church, or not▪ For by consent of all, the true Church cannot erre; but the Church of England, head and members, King, Clergie, and People, as before is said, yea a whole Councell of Protestants by their owne grant may erre, ergo, no true Church. If no true Church, no saluation in it; therefore come out of it: but that I was loath to doe. Rather I laboured mightily to defend it, both against the Puritanes, and against the Catholiques: But the best arguments I could vse against t [...]e Puritanes from the Authoritie of the Church, and of the ancient Doctors interpreting Scriptures against them, when they could not answere them, they would reiect them for Popish, and f [...]ye to their owne arrogant [Page] spirit, by which forsooth they must controll others This I found on the one side most abs [...]rd, and [...]o b [...]eede an Anarchy of confusion: and yet when I come to answere the Catholique Arguments on [...]he other side against Protestants, [...]rging the like Authority and vniformity of the Church, I perceiued the most Protestants did frame euasions, in effect like those of the Puritanes inclining to [...]heir priuate spirit, and other vncertainties.

Next therefore I applied my selfe to follow their opinion, who would make the Church of England and the Church of Rome still to be all one [...]n essentiall points, and the diff [...]rences to be accidentall. confessing the Church of Rome to be a true Church though sicke, or corrupted, and the Protestants to be deriued from it and reformed: and to this end I laboured much to reconcile most of our particular controuersies: But in truth I found such contrar [...]eties, not onely betweene Catholiques and Protestants, but euen among Protestants themselues that I could neuer settle my selfe fully in this opinion of some reconciliation, which I know many great Schollers in England did fauour. For considering so many opposite great points, for which they did excommunicate and put to death each other, and making the Pope to be Antichrist, proper or improper, it could neuer sinke into my braine how these two could be descendent, or members [...]ound nor vnfound participant each of other Rather I concluded, that [...]eeing many of the best learned Protestants did grant the Church or Rome [...] true Church, though [...] [Page] And contrarily, not onely the Catholiques, but also the Puritanes, Anabaptists, Brownists, &c. did all denie the Church of England to be a true Church: therefore it would be more safe and secure to become a Romane Catholique, who haue a true Church by consent of both parties, then to remaine a Protestant, who doe alone plead their owne cause, hauing all the other against them: For the testimony of our selues, and our contraries also, is much more sufficient, and more certaine then to iustifie our VI selues alone. Yet I resisted and stood out still: and betooke my selfe againe to reade ouer and examine the chiefest controuersies, especially those about the Church, which is, cardo negotij (and herein because the Bearer [...]taies now a day or two longer, I will inlarge my selfe more then I purposed) and so I would needes peruse the Originall quotations and Texts of the Councels, Fathers, and Doctors, in the Authors, themselues which were alleadged on both parts, to see if they were truely cited, and according to the meaning of the Authors: a labour of much labor, and of trauell sometime to finde the Books, wherein VII I found much fraud committed by the Protestants; and that the Catholiques had farre greater and better armies of euident witnesses on their sides, much more then the Protestants; in so much, that the Centurists are faine often to censure and reiect the plaine testimonies of those Ancients, as if their new censure were sufficient to disaucthorize the others auncient sentences. And so I remember Danaeus in Commentarijs super D. Augustin Enchirid▪ ad Laurentium. Where Saint Augustin plainely [Page] auoucheth Purgatory: he reiects Saints Augustines opinion, saying, hic est naeuus Augustini: but I had rather follow Saint Augustins opinion, then his ce [...] sure; for who are they to controll the Fathers?

There are indeede some few places in Authors, which prima facie seeme to fauour Protestants, as many Heretiques alleadge some texts of Scriptures, whose sound of words seeme to make for their opinions: but being well examined and interpreted, according to the analogie of faith, and according to many other places of the same Authours where they doe more fully explaine their opinions; so they appeare to be wrested, and from the purpose.

In fine, I found my selfe euidently conuinced, both by many Authorities, and by many Arguments, which now I doe not remember all, nor can here repeate those which I doe remember: but onely some few arguments I will relate vnto you which preuailed most with me, besides those afore mentioned.

First, therefore I could neuer approue the Protestants VIII euasion by Inuisibility of their Church: For though sometime it may be diminished and obscured, yet the Catholique Church must euer be visible, set on a hill, and not as light hid vnder a Bushell; for how should it enlighte [...] [...]nd teach her children, if inuisible, or how should Strangers, and Pagans, and others, be conuerted vnto her? or where should any finde the Sacraments, if inuisible?

Also the true Church in all places and all ages, euer IX holds one vniformitie and concord in all matters of Faith, though not in all matters of ceremony or gouernment: But the Protestants Church hath [Page] not in all ages, nor in all places such vniforme concord, no not in one age, as is manifest to all the world, and as Father Parsons proued against Foxes martirs, Wickliffe, Husse, and the res [...]: ergo the Protestants Church, not the true Church.

X Againe, by that saying, Haereses ad originem reuocasse est refutasse; and so considering Luthers first rancour against the Dominicans, his disobedience and contempt of his former Superiours, his vowe breaking, and violent courses, euen causing rebellion against the Emperour, whom he reuiles, and other Princes most shamefully, surely such arrogant disobedience, scisme, and rebellions, had no warrant nor vocation of God to plant his Church, but of the Deuill to begin a scisme and a sect. So likewise for Caluin, to say nothing of all that D. Bolsecus brings against him. I doe vrge onely what Master Hooker, Doctor Bancroft, and Sarauia doe proue against him, for his vnquietnesse and ambition, reuoluing the Common-wealth, and so vniu [...]tly expelling and depriuing the Bishop of Geneua, and other temporall Lords of their due obedience, and ancient inheritance. Moreouer, I referre you to the stirres, broiles, sedition, and murders which Knoxe and the Geneua Gospellers caused in Scotland against their lawfull Gouernours, against their Queene, and against our King, euen in his Mothers belly. Nor will I insist vpon the passions which first moued King Henrie violently to diuorce himselfe from his lawfull wife, to fall out with the Pope his friend, to marrie the Lady Anne Bullen, and soone after to behead her; to disinherite Queene Mary, and [Page] enable Queene Elizabeth; and presently to di [...]inherit Queene Elizabeth, and to restore Queene Mary; to hang Catholiques for traitors, and to burne Protestants for heretiques, to destroy Monasteries, and to pill Churches: were these fit beginnings for the Gospell of Christ? I pray was this man a good head of Gods Church? for my part, I beseech our Lord blesse me from being a member of such a head, or such a Church. I come to France and Holland, where you know by the Hugenots and Geuses all Caluinistes, what ciuill wars they haue raised, how much bloud they haue shed, what rebellion, rapine, and desolations they haue occasioned principally for their new Religion, founded in bloud like Draecos lawes: But I would gladly know whether you can approue such bloudy broiles for Religion, or no? I know Protestants de facto, doe iustifie the ciuill warres of France and Holland for good against their Kings, but I could neuer vnderstand of them quo lure: if the Hollanders be Rebels (as they are) why did we support them [...] if they be no rebels, because they fight for the pretended liberty of their ancient priuiledges, and for their new Religion; we see it is an easie matter to pretend liberties, and also why may not others as as well reuolt for their old Religion: Or I beseech you, why is that accounted treason against the State in Catholiques, which is called reason of State in Protestants? I reduce this argument to few words, That Church which is founded and begun in ma [...]ice disobedience, passion, bloud, and rebellion, cannot be the true Church: but it is euident to the world that the Protestant Churches in Germanie, Franc [...], Holland,[Page]Geneua, &c. were so founded, and in Geneua and Holland are still continued in rebellion: ergo, they are not true Churches.

XI Furthermore, where is not Succession both of true Pastors and of true Doctrine, there is no true Church: But among Protestants is no succession of true Pastors, (for I omit here to treate of Doctrine) ergo, no true Church. I prooue the minor: where is no consecration nor ordination of Bishops and Priests, according to the due forme and right intention required necessarily by the Church and ancient Councels, there is no succession of true Pastors▪ but among Protestants the said due forme and right intention are not obserued, ergo, no succession of true Pastors. The said due forme and right intention are not obserued among Protestants in France, Holland, nor Germanie, where they haue no Bishops, and where Lay men doe intermeddle in the making of their Ministers. And for England, whereas the Councels require the ordines minores of Subdeacon and the rest, to goe before Priesthood; your Ministers are made per saltum without euer being Subdeacons. And whereas the Councels require three Bishops to assist at the consecration of a Bishop, it is certaine that at the Nags-head in Cheap-side where consecration of your first Bishops was attempted but not effected (whereabout I remember the controuersie you had with one) there was but one Bishop, and I am sure there was such a matter: and although I know and haue seene the Records themselues, that afterward there was a consecration of Doctor Parker at Lambeth, and three Bishops named, [Page] viz. Miles Couerdall of Exceter, one Hodgeskin Suffragan of Bedford, and another whose name I haue forgotten, yet it is very doubtfull that Couerdall being made Bishop of Exceter in King Edwards time (when all Councels and Church Canons were little obserued) he was neuer himselfe Canonically consecrated; and so if he were no Canonicall Bishop, he could not make another Canonicall: and the third vnnamed, as I remember (but am not sure) was onely a Bishop Elect, and not consecrated, and so was not sufficient. But hereof I am sure, that they did consecrate Parker by vertue of a Breue from the Queene as Head of the Church, who indeed being no true Head and a Woman, I cannot see how they could make a true consecration grounded on her authoritie. Furthermore, making your Ministers you keepe not the right intention; for neither doe the Orderer nor the Ordered giue nor receiue the Orders as a Sacrament; nor with any intention of Sacrificing. Also they want the matter and forme with which according to the Councels and Canons of the Church holy Orders should be giuen; namely for the matter, Priesthood is giuen by the deliuerie of the Patena with bread, and of the Chalice with wine: Deaconship by the deliuerie of the booke of the Gospels; and Subdeaconship by the deliuerie of the Patena alone, and of the Chali [...]e emptie. And in the substantiall forme of Priesthood you doe faile most of all, which forme consists in these wordes, Accipe potestatem offerendi sacrificium in Ecclesia pro viuis & mortuis, which are neither said no [...] done by you, and therefore well may you bee called Ministers, as [Page] also Lay men are, but you are no Priests. Wherefore I conclude, wanting Subdeaconship, wanting vndoubted Canonicall Bishops, wanting right intention, wanting matter and due forme, and deriuing euen that you seeme to haue from a Woman the Head of your Church, therefore you haue no true Pastors, XII and consequently no true Church. And so to conclude, and not to wearie my selfe and you too much, being resolued in my vnderstanding, by these and many other Arguments, that the Church of England was not the true Church, but that the Church of Rome was and is the onely true Church, because it alone is Ancient, Catholique, and Apostolique, hauing Succession, Vnitie, and Visibilitie, in all ages and places; yet what agonies I passed with my will, here I will ouer-passe. Onely I cannot pretermit to tell you, that at last hauing also mastered and subdued my will to relent vnto my vnderstanding, by meanes of prayer, and by God Almighties grace principally, I came to breake through many tentations and impediments, and from a troubled vnquiet heart to a fixed and peaceable tranquilitie of minde, for which I doe most humbly thanke our sweet Lord and Sauiour Iesus, before whom with all reuerence I doe auouch and sweare vnto you, as I shall answere it in the dreadfull day of iudgement when all hearts shal be discouered, that I forsooke Protestant Religion for very feare of damnation; and became a Catholique with good hope of saluation; and that in this hope I doe continue and increase daily: and that I would not for all the world become a Protestant againe. And for this which here I haue written vnto you in [Page] great haste, I know there bee many Replyes and Reioynders wherewith I could neuer be satisfied; nor doe I desire any further Disputation about them, but rather to spend the rest of my life in deuotion; yet in part to giue you, my deare good friend, some account of my selfe, hauing now so good an occasion and fit a messenger, and by you if you please to render a reason of my Faith to Master Hall, who in his said printed Epistle in one place desires to know the motiues thereof, I haue thus plainly made relation of some points among many. Whereunto if Master Hall will make any Reply, I doe desire it may bee directly & fully to the points and in friendly termes, vpon which condition I doe pardon what is past: and of you I know I neede not require any such circumstances. And so most seriously intreating and praying to our gracious Lord to direct and keepe vs all and euer in his holy Truth, I commend you vnto his heauenly grace, and my selfe vnto your friendly loue. Seuill in Spaine, this first day of Aprill. 1615.

Your very affectionate and true louing friend, IAMES WADDESWORTH.

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To the Worshipfull his respected friend Master WILLIAM BEDELL, at his house in Saint Edmundsbury, or at Horinger, be there deliuered in Suffolke.

Kinde Master BEDELL,

MIne old acquaintance and friend hauing heard of your health and worldly well-fare, by this Bearer Master Austen your neighbour, and by him hauing opportunitie to salute you with these few Lines, I could not omit; though some fewe yeeres since I wrote you by one who since told mee certainly hee deliuered my Letters, and that you promised answere, and so you are in my debt, which I doe not claime not vrge so much, as I doe that in truth and before our Lord I speake it, you doe owe me loue in all mutuall amitie, for the heartie affectionate loue which I haue and euer did beare vnto you with all sinceritie. For though I loue not your Religion (wherein I could neuer finde solide Truth, nor firme hope of saluation, as now I doe being a Catholique, and our Lord is my witnesse who shall be my iudge) yet indeed I doe loue your person, and your ingenuous, honest, good, morall condition, which euer I obserued in you: nor doe I desire to haue altercations with Master Ioseph Hall (especially if he should proceede as Satyrically as he hath begun with me) nor with any other man, and [Page] much lesse would I haue any debate with your selfe, whom I doe esteeme and affect as before I haue written: nor would I spend the rest of my life (which I take to be short, for my lungs are decaying) in any Questions, but rather in deuotion, wherein I doe much more desire to bee hot and feruorous, then in Disputations, beseeching our Lord to forgiue my coldnesse, yea my neglect therein, and to pardon and free me from all sinne, and to guide and keepe you in all happinesse euen as I wish for mine owne soule, through the Redemption of our sweet Sauiour, and by the inter [...]ession of his holy Mother, and all Saints, Amen. Written in haste from Madrid, 14. Aprill. 1619.

Your assured true friend, IAMES WADDESWORTH.

Receiued I [...]ne 4. 1619.

To the Worshipfull my very good friend Master IAMES WADDESWORTH at Madrid, deliuer this.
Salutem in Christo Iesu.

THe late receipt of your Letters (good Master Waddesworth) did diuersly affect me with ioy and shame; and I know not with whether most. I was glad to heare of you, and your prosperous state, much more to receiue a kinde Letter from you. Ashamed, [Page] therein to be called vpon for debt; who haue euer endeuoured to liue by that rule of the Apostle; Owe nothing to any man. Yet not so much for that which you must vrge the debt of loue, sith by that Text it appears, that it can neuer be so discharged, as there should not be more behinde to pay. And your selfe who challenge this of me, doe owe me as much or well more. For let me tell you, I haue the aduantage of you herein by my profession, for where your loue is to me as to a man, or to an honest man, nor can by your present perswasion goe any further, I can and doe loue you as my deare brother, and fellow member in the mysticall body of our Lord Iesus Christ. And from this ground (to his knowledge I doe appeale) I doe heartily pray for you, and beare with you, and as the Apostle enioynes, Rom. 15. 7. Receiue you with a true brotherly affection. I am not therefore ashamed of this debt, but doe reioyce as much in the owing of it, as in the payment. But my shame growes from the being behinde with you in the office of writing. Wherein yet heare my honest and true excuse. Neither will I goe about to set off one debt with another. For you may remember how at our parting you promised to write to me touching the state of Religion there, which if wee shall make out a perfect reckoning, I account to be a good debt still. But this I say, when your Letters of the first of April, 1615▪ came to my hands, I purposed to returne answere by the same B [...]arer, who as hee told mee, was to returne about the Midsommer following. But I had a sodaine and extraordinarie iourny which came betweene, and kept me from home till after the Commencement, so as that opportunitie was lost. Besides, vpon the reading of your [Page] Letters, I perceiued your intention was to haue them imparted to Doctor Hall, expecting in a sort some reply from him. To him threfore did I send them. After some moneths I receiued this answere, which though I had once purposed to conceale, as not willing to be the meane of any exasperation betweene you, yet now hoping of your wisedome and patience I send you inclosed, that it may be some euidence of my true excuse. Vpon the receipt of it, I began to frame an answere to the points of your Letter, according to your desire, full, and in friendly termes. I had well-nigh finished it, when I was presented to this Benefice, and thereby entered into a world of distractions. These, together with the labour of writing it ouer, and vncertaintie of safe conueighing my Letters to you, did make mee procrastinate my payment, till now to my shame you should neede to demand it. And that I may by the more shaming my selfe obtaine a more easie penance from you; I confesse to you, I was sometime halfe in the minde (hauing especially differred it so long) to suppresse it altogether. First, out of mine owne naturall disposition, who haue euer abhorred contention: and whereas in matters of Religion there ought to be the fairest wars, I could neuer yet meete with any of that side of so patient a minde, but by opposition he would be vnsetled. For your selfe, though I knew your former moderate temper, and (as I remember I wrote to Doctor Hall) beleeued you in that which you protest, that out of conscience you were such as you professe; yet me thought I perceiued by your quick manner to him, and some passages in the conclusion of your Letter, you were rather desirous to enioy the quiet possession of your owne opinion, [Page] then come to any fur [...]her disputation whose is the right. And in truth the time of that triall had beene proper, before your departure: nor you had to [...] farre engaged your selfe; and were to iustifie by your constancie, the wisedome of your change. Besides, since the sum of the errour of that side, as I haue euer conceiued it, is beleeuing rather too much, then failing in any point necessary to saluation, that notable place of the Apostle, Rom. 14. 1. came to my minde, especially after that I had once occasion to preach of it, where he forbids controuersies of disputations with those that are infirme in faith. Who art thou (saith he) that iudgest another mans seruant? he standeth or falleth to his owne Master. Why should I grieue you, and perhaps make my friend mine enemy (as Saint Paul the Galathians) by saying the truth. The world is full enough of contentious writings, which as by your letter appeares you had seen ere ye resolued. If those had not satisfied you, what could I hope to adde to them? These things moued me; but as you say, they did not yet satisfie me. For all men are interessed in the defence of truth, how much more he that is called to be a Preacher of it? All Christians are admonished by Saint Iude, to fight for the faith once giuen to the Saints; how much more those that are leaders in this warfare: How could I say I loued our Lord Iesus Christ, if his honour being questioned I should be silent? How could I approue to mine owne soule that I loued you, if I sufered you to enioy your owne error, suppose not damnable. Besides that, you and perhaps others also might be confirmed in it, perhaps interpreting my silence for a confession that your Motiues were vnanswerable. But [Page] therein I was not onely resolued selfe to the contrary, but thought it so easie to resolue any indifferent minde, as me thought it was more shame not to haue done it at the first, then praise to doe it at the last. As for the successe of my endeauour, I was to leaue it to God. Many and secret are the wayes of his Prouidence, which serueth it selfe sometimes euen of our errours, to the safer conduct of vs to our finall happinesse. Some I had known, and heard of more, who being at first carried away with the shewes of Vnity, Order, Succession, Infallability; when they found them emptie of Truth, and the cloakes of Pride, ambition, coue [...]ousnesse, ioyned with an obstinacie to defend all corruptions how palpable so euer, by finding the difference of these Hulles from their Fathers Table, had with the prodigall Son returned home againe. To conclude, I accounted my selfe still in debt, and was I confesse to you unwilling to die in it; and somtimes vowed to God, in the middest of my troubles, if I might once see an end of them, to endeuour to discharge it. And now hauing by his mercy not onely attained that, but a new occasion presented me presently thereupon, by your calling for satisfaction to pay it, and meanes offered me to send it safely: I take this motion to proceede from God, and doe humbly desire his Maiesty to turne it to good. It remaines therefore, good Master Wadesworth, that I doe intreat your pardo [...] of that slacknesse that is past, and gentlenesse to take it as I shall be able to pay it. My employments both ordinary and extraordinary are many: the bulke of it is to great to conuey in one Letter, consisting of sundry sheetes of paper; and at this present there lies an extraordinary taske vpon me, so as I cannot presently writ [Page] it out. I doe therefore no more now but acknowledge the debt, and promise speedy paiment. Vnlesse I shall adde this also, that I doe vndertake to pay interest for the forbearance; and according as I shall vnderstand by Master Austen shall be fittest, and safest, to send it in parts, or all at once. To the conclusion of your last Letter, wherein you professe your desire to spend the rest of your life rather in the heate of deuotion, then of disputation, desiring pardon of coldenesse that way, and of all other your sinnes, and that it would please God to guide and keepe me in all happinesse as your selfe, through the redemption of our sweete Sauiour, and by the intercession of his holy mother and all Saints. I doe most thankefully and willingly subscribe Amen: returning vnto you from my heart your owne best wishes. Neither is it my purpose to call into question the soliditie of truth, or firmenesse of the hope of saluation, which you finde in your present way. This onely I say.Euen for vs also hath Christ died, and for our redemption hath hee shed his bloud. Sinners indeed we are, but of his flocke, and among his poore sheepe are we numbred. Et pro nobis Christus mortuus est, & pro nostra Redemptione sanguinem suum fudit. Peccatores quidem, sed de ipsius grege sumus, & inter eius ouiculas numeramur: This is my tenet. And if the doctrine of the holy Bible doe containe solid truth, and beleeuing in the name of the Son of God doe giue firme hope of saluation, according to Gods own record, 1 Iohn 5. 10. 11. 12. we are perswaded we haue both. I will adde this more; We know that wee are translated from death to life, because wee loue our brethren. With this Oyle in our Lampes, which we desire may be alwayes in store in our Vessels also our hearts, we attend the comming of the Bridegroome; and say cheerefully, Euen so come Lord Iesus. Etiam veni Domine Iesu. To [Page]whose gracious protection I doe most hartily commit you, and doe rest,

Your assured friend and louing Brother, W. BEDELL.

Horningesherth this fifth of August 1619.

To the Worshipfull Master WILLIAM BEDELL at Horningesherth neere Saint Edmundsbury in Suffolke, these.
Salutem in Crucifix [...].

WORTHY SIR,

I Was exceeding glad to perceiue by your kinde, modest, and discreete Letters of 5. of August last, that you are still permanent in your own good nature, and constant in your loue to me: not like Master Ioseph Hall, neither bitterly reuiling nor flourishing impertinently. Vnto whom I pray you returne▪ his scoffing railing Letter, with these few marginall noates. I pray God forgiue him, and make him a more humbler and meeker man. And I for my part doe freely pardon all his foule tearmes against me. And though in gratitude and iustice I am bound and so doe loue and respect you more then him, for your greater curtesie to me, and for [Page] your better value in your selfe; yet euen him I can and doe and am bound to loue not onely as an enemy, or a creature of God, or as I doe you for an honest, morall, good, discreete man, but euen further and beyond that which you seeme to vnderstand that we cannot by our doctrine proceede in loue: viz. as men hauing soules for whom our Sauiour hath died; and so as possible members though indeede not actuall branches of his misticall body: yea for such as may come to be ingrafted and beare fruite in him, when we may be withered, cut off, or fallen away. As for your serious Apologie and excuse for not answering my first Letters all this while, I doe easily admit it, and assure my selfe that all the circumstances, impediments, and occasions were such, as you affirme: nor did I expect, nor vrge, in my first nor second Letters any answere about Controuersies in Religion (for I euer said we could say nothing of substance which before had not beene said) but onely gaue you by Masters Hals occasion some few reasons of my faith, wherein still I protest I had rather be deuout then be troubled to dispute, not for feare or doubt, but because I am so fully resolued in my selfe, and do think it a very superfluous labour toties & melius ab alijs actum agere. So that I desired rather answere of curtesie then of controuersie, which now by Master Astons meanes I receiued, and doe much esteeme it, and hartily thanke you for it. Neuerthelesse, when your Replie vnto my plaine and few reasons come, I will for your sake both read them ouer, and according to my little health, lesse leisure, and my poore [Page] abilitie (which is least of all) returne you some such short reioynder as it shall please almighty God to enable me, being glad to perceiue by your last that you doe subscribe to our Intercession by our blessed Lady, and other holy Saints; which also I hope and wish you would fully extend to our Inuocation of Saints as Intercessors, not as Redeemers, for that were Blaspemie indeede and Idolatrie; from which our sweete Sauiour deliuer vs, and euer keepe you my good deere friend, as I desire.

Madrid, in haste, 26. Octob. 1619.

IAMES WADDESWORTH.

To the worshipfull my very good friend M. IAMES WADDESWORTH, at Madrid, deliuer this.
Salutem in Christo Iesu.

YOur Letters of the 26. of October (beloued Master Waddesworth) were long vpon the way and came not to my hands till the 23. of May. In them I receiued your curteous acceptation of my excuse for my former silence, & censure of Doctor Hall Letter with the profession of your loue to me and him, further then I accounted you could by your Doctrine proceede, [Page] viz. as redeemed by Christ, and possible members of his mysticall body. Truely Sir, I will not change words with you here abouts, but I account still to be an honest man, restraineth from that, to be redeemed by our Sauiour, since that is as large as humane nature, this is giuen to fewer, of whom a man may say as our Lord doth of one in the Gospell, that they are not far from the Kingdome of God. Howsoeuer, I haue still my intention that wee out of our profession may loue you better then you can vs: since it is more to be an actuall, then a possible member of Christ; and the Communion of Saints is a staighter bond, then Redemption by Christ, and possibilitie of being ingrafted and bearing fruite in his mysticall body. And I would to Christ that of all other Controuersies this were the vehementest betweene vs, which should loue each other most. Wherein although I would striue and doe my best to haue the better, yet see how equally I would contend. For both I would acknowledge freely, my selfe farre short of that which I may by my profession doe in this kinde, and perswade my selfe better of your secret affection to vs, then you may by your pofession expresse. I will not easily beleeue that you can finde in your heart to count that man a Dogge, and out of the Church, and in state of damnation, that stedfastly beleeueth in our Lord Iesus Christ, and by him in the B. Trinitie; that confesseth all the Doctrine of holy Scriptures, the summe whereof is in the Creede; that lastly, with a charitable affection embraceth all that hold this faith, throughout the world, yea euen [Page] those that hate and persecute him to the death. Wherein I forbeare for the present to enlarge, because I speake more of it in my answere to your first Letters; which Master Aston giues me hope that himselfe ere long will consigne into your hands. Now by his direction, I send you onely aduice of the receipt of your last, with heartie thankes for them, desirous not to runne further in arrerages with you in this office of writing. This one thing I adde, that where you write you are glad I doe subscribe to your intercession by the Saints, wishing me fully to extend it to inuocation of Saints as Intercessors, though not as Redeemers; I should be very glad if I could as well content you in all other points, as that one: comming thus prepared in all controuersies with you, and all men, to yeelde whatsoeuer I may, sauing the truth. But as I conceiue it, there is great oddes betweene these two. To desire God to grant vs this or that good thing by the intercession of the Saints; and, To vse inuocation of themselues. The one supposeth onely that the Saints in glory generally knowing the warfare of those on earth, are carefull for them, and omit not this act of neuer failing charitie to pray for them. These praiers it hopes, and desires of God may be helpefull to vs, by the onely merit of our Lord Iesus Christ; in the same sort as those of the Saints wheresoeuer on earth; as 2 Cor. 1. 10. 11. Ephes. 6. 1. Philem. ver. 22. The other, that the Saints departed know our wants, and states in particular, and heare our prayers, and by consequent know our hearts: which is flatly contrarie [Page] to the Scriptures 2 Chron. 6. 30. Esay 63. 16. To omit now that you doe not onely desire them to pray for you, but aske at their hands grace and glory, trust in them, vow to them, sweare by them, offer and receiue the sacrifice of the New Testament to their honour and glory, and desire it may be accepted by their patronage. Wherefore as I am glad to perceiue that you doe reuerse those blasphemies indeede, Salua me Saluatrix; Redime me Redemptrix; and will not subscribe to those words of Bellarmine, non erit absurdum si sancti viri redemptores nostri aliquo modo, id est secundum aliquid, non simpliciter; & largo modo; non in rigore verborum esse dicantur: and againe, cur inepte dicantur Sancti viri aliquo modo passionibus suis delicta nostra posse redimere? so I hope and wish you would doe the like for calling vpon them, and presenting their merits vnto God; and as yee may more safely and sweetely speake vnto our Iesus, who is our Aduocate with the Father, entered into the Holy of Holies to appeare before God for vs. To his gracious protection I commit you, and doe rest

Horningshearth this 15. of Iune, 1620.

Your assured friend and louing Brother W. BEDELL.

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To the worshipfull his much respected friend Master WILLIAM BEDELL at Horningshearth by Saint Edmundsbury in Suffolke, these.

My very good Friend

MAster BEDELL, my last vnto you was by a Gentleman who went from hence about sixe moneths since; but I haue vnderstood hee fell sicke at Paris, by the way, and so was first hindered there in his iourney, and afterward againe at Brussels fell to a relapse, which detained him so long, that although now very lately I heare he is recouered and gone forward into England, yet in so long delayes & so often sickenesses, I know not whether hee haue lost or forgotten my former Letters: wherefore out of this consideration, and by the opportunitie of this Bringer, and by the true harty affection which I beare you, being desirous to signifie vnto you the continuance of my sincere loue, I could not pretermit this so good an occasion, though hereby I haue nothing else to say, nor intreate, but if wee haue [...]arres, yet our dissention may be rather in the matter and cases, then betwixt our persons, as discreete Lawyers vse to pleade vehemently each for [Page] his Clyents iustice, and yet remaine betwixt themselues without breach of amitie, and abstaining from opprobrious iniurie; wherein I haue great confidence that you will proceede both more moderately in all the circumstance, and to better purpose in the substance then Master Ioseph Hall, vnto whose Letter directed to you, and by you sent vnto me, I wrote certaine Marginall Notes onely, and so returned the same by the aboue named Gentleman, whereof also (if it returne to your hands) I would intreate you to send me a Copie both of his Text and my Glosse, for then being in haste I remained with neither. Our Lord keepe you, and guide vs all to his truth, and to heauen.

Madrid, 8. Iune, 1620.

IAMES WADDESWORTH.

The Letter of Master D. HALL, mentioned in the formerwith Master WADDESWORTHS marginall notes.

GOod Master Bedell, what a sorry crabbe hath Master Waddesworth at last sent vs from Siuill? I pittie theI pray see within how short a compasse he proues himself a Poeticall rai [...]er by his Epithets, not onely against me, but [...]euiling a whole Nation, and the Religion of the best part of all Christendome. impotent malice of the man; sure that hot Region, andI pray see within how short a compasse he proues himself a Poeticall rai [...]er by his Epithets, not onely against me, but [...]euiling a whole Nation, and the Religion of the best part of all Christendome. sulphurous Religion are guiltie of this his choler. For ought I see hee is [Page] not onely turned Papist but Spaniard too. Ibi vi [...]itur ambitiosa paupertate: The great man would not foyle his fingers (for that is his word) with such an aduersarie as my selfe; hee should haue found this conflict his foyling indeede; but hee scornes the match; and what wonder if he that hath all this whileThis m [...]cke if it were true yet would I reioyce in [...]t, not onely to [...]it on his staires, but to m [...]ke cleane his shoe [...]s. sat on Father Creswels staires, scorne the vnworthinesse of him whom an English Vniuersitie scorned not to set in the chaire of Diuinitie? But whence is this my contempt? I see but two vices to cleare my selfe of; Poetry and I tearmed him a Poeticall Ra [...] ler, not accusing nor [...] him for a Poet [...] taxing him for raising poe [...]cally vsing the word as sometimes it is in the worst sense when it is abused: neither condemning Poetrie nor [...]o [...]rouing him for a Poet▪ out a po [...]ticall Ra [...]er: as he doth [...] selfe by that Epistle [...] better Letter. Railing; of the latter you shall acquit mee if you will but reade that my poore Epistle which he sleights thus: Let your eyes iudge whether euer any thing could be written more mildely, more modestly, more louingly. Of the former I must acquit my selfe; Cuius vnum est sed magnum vitium Poesis: what were I the worse if I were still a louer of those studies? If he could haue had leisure to tend vpon any thing besides that Fathers Packets, he might haue seene most of the renowned and holy Fathers of the Church eminent in that profession for which I am scornd; amongst many others Tertullian, Lactantius, Nazianzen, Prudentius, Fulgentius, Apollinarius, Nonnus, Hilarius, Prosper, and now in the vpshotI willingly pardon [...] is pe [...]icall railing and false [...]pithites, for that one true word [...] Bernard to be deuout. deuout Bernard, and why should their honour be my disgrace? But the truth is, these were the recreations of my minoritie; nun [...] oblita mihi. And if Poetrie [Page] were of the deadly sinnes of their Casuists, I could smart for it in my [...]: Is this a fit scandall to [...]ake vp from so farre? What my proficiencie hath beene in serious studies, if the Vniuersitie and Church hath pleased to testifie: what neede I stand at the mercie ofPardon for S. Bernards sake. a fugitiue. But if any of A braue man a [...] armes, &c. his Masters should vndertake me in the cause of God, he should finde I had studied prose. As for these vaine flourishes of mine, if he had not taken a veny in them, and found it smart, he had not strooke again soPardon for S. Bernards sake. churlishly? Was it my Letter that is accused of Poetry? there is neither number, nor ryme,I would there were not. nor fiction in it: Would the great Schoole man haue had me to haue packt vp a Letter of syllogismes? which of the Fathers (whose high steppes I haue desired to tread in) haue giuen that example? what were to be expected of a Monitorie Epistle which intended onely the occasion if he had pleased of a future discourse? Wee I slandersSatis pro imperio. list not learne to write Letters from beyond the Pyrenees. Howsoeuer, I am not sorry that his scorne hath cast him vpon an aduersarie more able to conuince him; I am allowed onely a looker on; therefore I will neither ward nor strike; his hands are too full of you: my onely wish is, that you could beare him sound againe; whereof I feare there it little hope. There was neuer aduersarie that gaue more aduantage: hee might haue serued in th [...]se Coleworts neerer home. I professe I doe hartilyThis ap [...]eares by your railing on him, as hee that iustified himselfe from swearing, by [...]wd swearing By God hee did not [...]. pittie [Page]him; and so if it please you let him know from me. What Apostacie (which is the onely hard word I can be charged with)This were in pro [...]e one a [...]surdi [...]y by a greater & to vndert [...] be that some one Text of Scripture is false or f [...]ged because all the whole Bible is [...] Or hauing called one a Iew or Bas [...]ard &c. to make him amends by [...]elling him all his kinred were such. But that Book [...] and Chapter is indeede [...]ittifully professed: And by it and [...] nuating here [...] offence of [...]oo much chari [...]e may be easily [...] the [...] stance of your proficiencie on [...]. impute to the Roman Church I haue professed to the world in the first Chapter of my Roma Irreconciliabilis: if I offend not in too much charitie, there is no feare: say what you will for me, I haue done, and will onely pray for him that answers me with contempt: farewell, and commend mee to Master Sotheby, and your other louing and reuerend Societie; and know mee euer,

Your truely louing friend and fellow labourer, IOS. HALL.

Waltam. Ian, 10. 1615.

Good Master Bedell, this Letter hath lien thus long by me for want of carriage. I now heare you are setled at Horningsherth. whereby I wish you much ioy. I am appointed to attend the Ambassador into France, whither I pray you follow me with your praiers.

May 15.

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To my Reuerend and worthy friend Master Doctor HALL, at Waltham deliuer this.

SAlutem in Christo. Good Master Doctor, this Letter of yours since my receipt of it, hath beene a traueller, further then you or I; which being some moneths since returned into England, I returne to you that it may relate what entertainment it hath found in forraine parts. It is now a yeare and more that I receiued a Letter from Master Waddesworth, challenging an old debt of me, an answere to his Letters which occasioned this of yours. I wrote backe, and among other things enclosed this your Letter, which he hath censured as you see. His answere by reason of the sicknesse of the Gentleman that brought it, first at Paris, and after at Bruxels came not to me till the latter end of May, and now lately another I receiued from him, wherein he desires a Copie both of your Text and his Glosse, as he cals it, as hauing reserued none for haste. I haue not yet sent him my answere to his Motiues which hath long layen by me for lacke of leisure to copie it out, and meanes safely to conuey it, being well towards a quire of Paper. My auncient fault, tediousnesse. But the Gentleman that brought me his former Letter, hath vndertaken ere long to consigne it into his hands. Therein I endeauour to vse him with the best respect I can deuise, onely oppugning the Papacy [Page] and Court of Rome. Now Sir, that which I would entreate of you, is this: You know the Precept of the Apostle touching them that are fallen, lend me your hand to set him in ioynt againe. And be pleased not onely not to reflect vpon the weakenesse of his Glosse, but not so much as vpon the strength of his stomacke [...] though that bee also weakenesse, as Saint Augustine well cals it, [...] infirmitas animositatis Writ a letter to him in the Character [...] Which shall either goe with mine, or be sent shortly after. Who can tell what God may worke? Surely, at least we shall heape coales of fire vpon his head. Although if all be true that I heare, it is not to be despaired but he may be deliuered out of the snare of error, the rather because he hath not that reward or contentment which he expected. He liues now at Madrid with the Persian Ambassador Sir Robert Sherly, and hath good maintenance from him, being as his Steward, or Agent. The kinde vsage of his ancient friends, may perhaps bring him in loue with his countrie againe, &c. This for that businesse. Now. &c.

October 2▪ 1620.

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To the worshipfull my very good friend Master IAMES WADDESWORTH at Madrid deliuer this.
Salutem in Christo Iesu.

SIr, I receiued by Master Fiston your letters of the eight of Iune, and as I hope ere this time you vnderstand, the former which I mention in them: to which I wrote in answere, and deliuered the same to Master Aston the 15. of the same Moneth. Doctor Hals letter with your marginall Notes which in your last you require, I send you herein enclosed. Though if I may perswade or intreate you both, neither should the Text nor Glosse make you multiply any more words thereabout. Vpon the receipt of your Letter I spake with Master Aston, who told me that he held his resolution for Spaine, whereupon I resolued also to send by him mine answer to your first: as thinking it better to doe it more safely, though a a little later, then sooner, with lesse safetie. And here Sir at length you haue it. Wherein as to my moderation for the manner, I hope you shall perceiue that setting aside our difference in opinion, I am the same to you that I was when we were either Schollers together in Emmanuell Colledge, or Ministers in Suffolke. For the substance, I doe endeauour still to write to the purpose, omitting nothing materiall [Page] in your Letters. If sometimes I seeme ouerlong, and perhaps to digresse somewhat from the principall point more then was necessary, I hope you will pardon it, sith you required a full answere, and the delay it selfe had neede to bring you some interest for the forbearance. And because you mention the vehemencie of discreete Lawyers (although me thinkes we are rather the Clients themselues, that contend, since our faith is our owne and our best freehold) let me entreate of you this ingenuitie) which I protest in the sight of God I bring my selfe.) Let vs not make head against euident reason, for our owne credit, or fashion, and factions sake, as Lawyers sometimes are wont. Neither let vs thinke we loose the victory, when truth ouercomes. We shall haue part of it rather, and the better part, since errour the common enemy to vs both, is to vs more dangerous. For truth is secure and impregnable; we, if our Errour be not conquered, must remaine seruants to corruption. It is the first praise, saith Saint Augustine, to hold the true opinion, the next to forsake the false. And surely that is no hard masterie to doe, when both are set before vs, if we will not be either retchlesse, or obstinate. From both which our Lord of his mercy euermore helpe vs, and bring vs to his euer lasting Kingdome. Amen.

Horningshearth, Octo. 22. 1620.

Your very louing Brother W. BEDELL.

THE COPIES OF CERTAINE LETTERS, &c.
Salutem in Christo Iesu.

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CHAP. I.
Of the Preamble. The titles Catholique, Papist, Traytor, Idolater.

SIr, I doe first returne you heartie thankes, for the truth and constancie of your loue, and those best effects of it, your wishing mee as well as to your selfe, and reioycing in my safe returne out of Italy. For indeede further I was not: though reported to haue beene both at Constantinople and Ierusalem, by reason of the neerness [...] of my name to one Master William Bidulph, the Minister of our Merchants at Aleppo, who visited both those places.

I thanke you also, that your ancient loue towards mee, hath (to vse that word of the Apostle) now flourished againe, in that after so many yeeres, you haue found opportunitie to accomplish your promise of writing to mee: though not as ye vndertooke of the state of Religion there, [Page] yet which I confesse I no lesse desired, the Motiues of the forsaking that you had professed here. Whereof since it hath pleased you, as yee write, now to giue mee an account, and by me to Master Doctor Hall, with some expectation also as it appeares of reply from one of vs, I will vse the libertie which you giue me, and as directly as I can for the matter, and in Christian termes for the manner, shew you mine opinion of them, wherein I shall endeauour to obserue that Precept of the Apostle; [...], whether it be to be interpreted, louing sincerely, or seeking truth louingly. Neither soothing vntruth for the dearnesse of your person, nor breaking charitie for diuersitie of opinion. With this entrance, my louing friend, and if you refuse not that old Catholike name, my deare brother, I come to your Letter. Wherein though I might well let passe that part which concernes your quarrell with Master Doctor Hall, with aetatem habet; yet thus much out of the common presumption of charitie, which thinkes not euill, giue mee leaue to say for him, I am verily perswaded he neuer meant to charge you with Apostasie in so horrible a sense as you count, viz. a totall falling from Christian Religion, like that of Iulian, an obstinate pertinacy [...]n denying the principles of the Faith necessarie to saluation, or a renouncing your Baptismee The terme Apostasie, as you know, doth not alwaies sound so hainously. A Monke forsaking his Order, or a Clerke his habit, is in the Decretals stiled an Apostata. Granatensis saith not vntruly, that euery deadly sinne is a kinde of Apostasie. The Apostle Saint Paul speaking of Antichrists times, saith, there must come an Apostasie before Christs second comming: and how this shall be he shewes elsewhere. Men shall giue heede to spirits of error, and doctrines of Deuils, and such as speake falsehood in hypocrisie [...] Whereby it seemes that Antichrist himselfe shall not professedly renounce Christ and his Baptisme. His Kingdome is a mysterie of iniquitie; a reuolt therefore, not from the outward profession, but inward sinceritie and power of the [Page] Gospel. This kinde of Apostasie might bee that which Master Hall was sory to finde in you, whom hee thought fallen from the truth, though not in the principles of Christian doctrine, yet in sundry conclusions which the reformed Churches truely out of them maintaine. He remembred our common education in the same Colledge, our common oath against Popery, our common calling to the same sacred function of the Ministery, he could not imagine vpon what reasons you should reuerse these beginnings. And certainly, how weightie and sufficient soeuer they be, wee are not taught by our Catholicke religion to reuenge our selues, and render reproch for reproch with personall termes; much lesse to debase and auile the excellent gifts of God, as is Po [...]sie, the honour of Dauid and Salom [...]n, by the testimony of the holy Ghost himselfe. These courses are forbidden vs when wee are reiled vpon, and calumniated; how much more when as Saint Peter speakes, wee are beaten for our faults; as it falls out in your case, if these motiues of yours be weake and insufficient; which we shall anon consider.

You say, you are become Catholicke. Were you not then so before? The Creed whereinto you were baptized, is it not the Catholicke faith? The conclusion [...]ertes of Athanasius Creed, which is but a declaration thereof, saith, Haec est fides Catholica. This is the Ca [...]holike [...]. Or is not he a Catholick that holds the Catholicke faith? That which was once answered, touching the present Church of England, to one in a Stationers shop in Venice, that would needs know what was the difference betwixt vs and the Catholickes. It was told him none: for we accounted our selues good Catholicks. When he vnwilling to bee put of in his answer, for lacke of due forme in his question, pressed to know what was the difference betwixt vs and them there. He was a swered, This; that wee beleeued the Catholicke faith conta [...] ned in the Creed, but did not beleeue the thirteenth Ar [...] cle which the Pope had put to it. When he knew not of [Page] any such Article; the Extrauagant of Pope Boniface was brought, where hee defines [...] to bee altogether of necessitie to saluation, to euery humane creature to bee vnder the Bishop of Rome. This thirteenth Article, of the thirteenth Apostle, good Master Wadesworth, it seemes you haue learned, and to are become, as some now speake and write Catholike Romane. That is in true interpretation Vniuersall-particular [...] which because they cannot bee equalled, the one [...]estraining and cutting off from the other, take heed that by streightning your faith to Rome, you haue not altered it, and by becomming Romane, left off to bee Catholike.

Thus, if you say, our ancestors were all till of late yeeres. Excuse mee Sir, whether you call our ancestors the first Christian Inhabitants of this Ile, or the ancient Christians of the Primitiue Church; neither those, nor these were Roman-Catholikes; Namely, the Fathers of the African Councell, and amongst these Saint Augustine: and therefore by Pope Boniface his sentence bee vndoubtedly damned for taking vpon them, by the Deuils instinct (if wee beleeue another [...]. Pope Boniface) to waxe proud against the Church of Rome. Such Catholikes, if yee meane the most of Christendome be at this day. Beware of putting your selfe vpon that issue. Beleeue mee, either yee must frame a new Cosmography, yes, a new world, or else yee are gone if it come to most voyces in Christendome. Touching the names of Papist, Traytor, Idolater. The first is no mis-calling you, as comprizing the very character that difference [...]h you from all other Catholikes. Neither by our Rhemists aduice should you be ashamed of it, sith to be a Papist, [...] by their interpretation is nothing else, but to bee a Christian man, a childe of the Church, and subiect to Christs V [...]car. The wise State of Venice haue a little different notion of their Papaelines, excluding from sundry their consultations vnder that name, such of the Nobilitie as are obliged to the Pope by Ecclesiasticall promotions. True [Page] it is that they apply it also to Papalines in faction, such as are superstitiously deuoted to the maintaining of all the Popes vsurped authoritie; in which sense shope you are no Papist.

A Traytor I am assured M [...]ster Doctor Hall will neuer call you, vnlesse hee know that you haue drunke so deepe of the Cup of error, as to beleeue the Pope [...]y depose your Prince; that you are not bound to obey him being so deposed; that in that case, it is lawfull, yea meritorious to kill him; that they are Mar [...]yrs that are executed [...] plotting to blow him vp with Gun-powder, though vndeposed; hoping it would bee no lesse agreeable to hi [...] Holinesse, then (that which hee desired) to haue kep [...] him from comming to the Crowne at first. If you be thus perfectly a Papist, not onely wee here in England, but I beleeue his Catholicke Maiestie, vnder whose obedience now ye liue, whensoeuer he should be that Prince, would account you a Traytor, and punish you accordingly. I hope you are farre from these furies.

For Idolatry, if to giue diuine honour to creatures, deserue that name, consider how you can defend or excuse those prayers to the Blessed Virgin, Tu no [...] ab [...]oste protege. & [...]or â mortis suscipe. And to the Crosse, Augepus [...]stitiam re [...]sque dona veniam: I omit to speake of the Popes Omnipotencie. I hope also you keepe your selfe from this Idolatry.

In Protestant religion, you say, you coui [...] neuer [...]nae V [...] formitie of a settled Faith. How so? when you had that same [...] one onely immoueable and vnreforma [...]ie [...]nie of [...]aith as Tertullian calls it, euery Lords day recited [...]n your [...]earing, if not by your mouth. I meane the Creea, of which Irenaeus [...]. saith, that hee which is able to say much of [...] exceeds it not, nor hee that lesse [...]. which Saint Augustine cals the rule common to great and [...]; which mig [...] well enough haue settled and quieted [...] conscience. wh [...] lest you laboured to finde the truth in all doubtfull questions. [Page] Whereto how carefully and diligently you vsed the meanes of reading, studying, and praying for three or foure yeeres, God and your conscience best know. For conferring, I cannot yeeld you any testimonie, notwithstanding our familiaritie, and that we were not many miles asunder, and you were also priuie, that I had to doe in these controuersies with some of that side, and saw some sample of the worke. I come now to your motiues.

CHAP. II.
Of the Contrarietie of Sects pretanded to bee amongst Reformers.

IN the front whereof is the comm [...]on exception, to our contrar [...]etie of sects and opinions, &c. First, what are all these to the Church of England, which followeth none but Christ? Then, if it be a fault of the reformed Churches, that there is strife and diuision amongst them, as who will iustifie it; yet let it finde pardon, if not for Corinths sake,1. Cor. 3. 3. Socrat. 1. 4. c. 2 [...]. and the Prim [...]tiue Churches what time Themistius was faine to excuse it with an Oration to Valens the Emperour, yet euen for Romes: where also you cannot but know, that in very many and most important points, Diuines hold one thing and Canonists another; The French, and lately also the Venetian Diuines, resist to his face, him, that others say no man may bee so hardie as to aske, Domine cur ita facus? though he should draw with him innumerable soules to hell. Your Spanish Prelates and Diuines, would neuer acknowledge in the Councell of Trent (the mysteries whereof are come out at last) that Episcopall authoritie was deriued from him, nor consent to that circum [...]enting clause Proponentibus Legatis, &c. and were strong that residence is, de iure diuino; howsoeuer they were ouerruled by the Italian faction: whether they haue yet changed their mindes, you can better tell then I. The old faction [Page] of the Thomists and Scotists is yet a foot, as I perceiue by Rada his Controuersies. In the beginning whereof the Censor of the Booke hath this sentence. Qua prop [...]er audiendi nullatonus sunt, qui has Theologicas contentiones è medio omnino expl [...]dendas arbitrantur. There is another lately risen betweene the Dominicans and the Iesuites; both in as great matters, and pursued with as great vehemencie, as those of the reformed Churches, excepting onely a few fierie spirits of Saxony. But in the Church of England, as reformation was not brought in by any one man, but by the ioynt consent of the whole, so it is yet continued. Lutherans, Zuinglians, Caluinists, are not knowne among vs, saue by hearesay. Whereof it is some signe, that your selfe doe not know them well, as it seemes, when you distinguish them from Protestants. A name first giuen to the Princes and free Cities of Germany, that sought reformation in the Diet at Spire, Anno 1529. and from them passed to vs and other Countries where it was effected. Who are then Protestants, if the Lutherans and Zuinglians bee not? For of both these there were in that Diet; the Heluetians and parts adioyning of Germany, hauing beene reformed at home, first by the preaching of Zuinglius; the Saxons, and the remnant of Luther. Who much about one time and without any correspondence, began to oppose the Popes Indulgences, and differed not for ought that euer I could yet vnderstand, saue in the manner of Christs presence in the Eucharist. Yea, in that also taught vniformely, that the bodie and bloud of our Sauiour are present; not to the Elements, but to the receiuer, in the vse, and without Transubstantiation. As for those whom you call Caluinists; and the rest Puritanes, Cartwrightists, and Brownists, tell mee in good sooth, Master Wadesworth, how doe they differ from the reformed Churches in Helueti [...], or the Church of England, saue in the matter of gouernment onely? See th [...]n all this contrarietie of Sects meetly well reconclled. For Puritanes, Cartwrightists, and Brownists, [Page] are in substance of Doctrine all one with Caluinists, and these with Zwinglians, who were of the first Protestants, and differ litle or nothing from those whom yee call Lutherans. Whereof this may bee a sensible proofe, that commonly their Aduersaries and your selfe after call them by the same name, the Protestant Churches in Germanie, France, Holland, and Geneua. And Pope Leo the tenth in his condemnatorie Bull; and likewise Charles the fifth in his Imperiall Edict, doe reflect wholly vpon Luther and his followers, without any mention of the other at all. To conclude this matter; as it is vndoubtedly a signe of a good minde to dislike contention, and diuersities of opinions, and it may haue pardon to apprehend sometimes more then there is indeed; like to the melancholike old man in the Comedie, whose suspition makes him to multiply on this manner.Plaut. Aulular. Qui mihi intromisisti in aedes quingentos coquos, so to muster vp emptie names, without any reall difference, as Pur [...]tans, Cartwrightists, Brownists; to make differences in a few opinions about Gouernment or Sacraments, Sects and contrarieties, hath not the character of ingenuous and sincere dealing, which from you Master Waddesworth, I did and doe expect.

But some of these damne each other, auouching their Positions to be matters of Faith, not Schoole questions of opinion only. Here indeed there is fault on all sides in this Age, that we cannot be content with the bounds which the ancient Church hath set, but euery priuate opinion must be straight-wayes an Article of Faith. Euery decision of a Pope, euery Decree of a Councell. And then as men are easily enamored of their owne conceits, and as Gerson wisely applies that of the Poet, Qui amant sibi somnia fingunt; as if the very marrow of Religion consisted in those points, those that thinke otherwise are Heretikes, and in state of damnation. The Roman faction goes further, to Fire and Faggot, and all exquisite torments, as if those things that make against the Papacie, were more seuerely to bee punished [Page] then the blasphemies of the Iewes, or Mahumetisme it selfe. I doe not excuse the reformers of this bitternesse, wherein after your departure out of England, my namelesse Aduersarie that vnder-tooke Master Alablasters quarrell, giuing me ouer in three of his demands, ran riot in the first, about this point of opposition among our selues, and raked together all the vehement speeches of Luther, and some of his followers, against those whom they call the Sacramentaries. Why, who will vndertake to defend Lutbers speeches, or all that falls from contentious pens? But euen out of those testimonies, which himselfe brings for the worst that hee could on the contrarie part; it appeares, this eagrenesse is not mutuall. And in truth, both we in England, and the Helue [...]ians, and French, doe maintaine a brotherly affection towards them of Saxonie, how spitefully soeuer some of them write of vs. And euen of those whom he calls Lutherans, as I perceiued while I was at Norimberg, the moderater sort are alike affected towards vs. But as touching the auouching our opinions to be matters of Faith (which exception is common to you with him) that which I should haue answered him, if I had found in him any thing but spite and scorne, I will say now to you. Verily in some sort euen the least conclusions in Diuinitie are matters of Faith. For both Faith hath to doe with them, and they are fetched by discourse, from the first Principles holden by Faith, whence our whole Religion is called by Saint Iude, the Faith once deliuered to the Saints. And the least error in them, by consequence ouerthrowes the same principles whence they are deduced. That makes some, to mooue attention in their Readers to say, The questions are not about small matters, but of the principall Articles of Religion, euen about the foundation. As Cu [...]aeus whom he cites, saith, the question is of two Articles of Faith. First, of that which teacheth that in Christ two natures are vnited. Secondly, of the Article, He ascended into Heauen. Why? doe not both sides agree to these? Yes. [Page] But one side fetches arguments against vbiquitie from these places, and thereupon saith, the question is about these Articles; perhaps also chargeth the other to denie them. Hee cites Pappus writing thus, Agitur inter nos de Omnipotentia Dei, &c. The controuersie betwixt vs, is about the Omnipotencie of God. The personall vnion of the two natures in Christ. The communication of properties. The glorious body of our Sauiour, &c. Loe againe, euery place of argument or defence is made the matter of Controuersie. Out of these and such like confessions on either side, my namelesse Aduersarie will needes enforce, with great pompe and triumph; what thinke yee? That such sanctified men (this is his scoffing language) goe not together by the eares for Moonshine in the water. Againe, That all those Myrmidonian fights and bloudie encounters bee not de lanâ Caprinâ aut de vmbrâ asini—Why, who said they were? I will set downe here my wordes, that you may iudge of the conscience of this man, and haue with all the substance of my answere to this obiection. And what if some outragious spirits on each side, trans [...]ported with passion in their oppositions, haue vsed most bitter and vnbeseeming speeches to their Aduersaries, and sometimes haue shewed each other small humanitie; are you so simple as not to discerne betweene the choller of some few opinionate men, and the consequence of their opinions? Haue you forgotten Saint Hierome and Ruffinus deadly foe-hood, which was rung ouer the world? or Epiphanius and Chrysostomes, or Victors and the Greeke Bishops? which proceeded so farre about a trifle, that hee excommunicated them; which is little lesse I thinke then to condemne to the pit of Hell. And yet if I should put it to your iudgement, I am perswaded you would grant they held all truth necessarie to saluation. For you must remember Pope Boniface had not yet coyned the new Article of the Faith, that I mentioned before. What shall I speake of Saint Paul and Barnabas, which grew to such bitternesse, and that about a very little question of conueniency, that though they were sent out together by the Holy Ghost, they brake off companie. [Page]These be humane passions, which wisedome would we should pittie, when they grow to such extremities, vpon so small cause; rather then from their outrage to gather there is iust cause to encrease. Doe we not see that euen naturall brethren doe sometimes defie one another, and vse each other with lesse respect then strangers? Now from hence would you conclude they bee not brethren; and hearten them on, and say to the one, that sith his halfe brother is not so neere to him, as he with whom he is thus at oddes, hee must fall out worse with him. You should well so deserue the hate of God, for a make-hate betweene brethren. These were all my wordes set downe in answere to his obiecting our owne contentions and condemning each other, to proue that therefore we could not hold continuitie with the ancient Church of England, from which we dissented much more. I held as you may perceiue, that neither amongst our selues, nor from our predecessors wee disagree in any truth necessarie to saluation. Hee makes me to say, our dissentions are about Moone shine, and de vmbrâ asini, & de la [...]â caprinâ, and tr [...]fles, and matters of no consequence. To returne to you, good Master Waddesworth, let men auouch as confidently as they will touching their owne positions, Est de Fide. N [...]hil certius apud Catholicos, and of their contraries crie out. They are Heretikes, renew ancient heresies, race the foundation, denie the Articles of the Creede, Gods [...] [...]ipoteney, &c. all because themselues by discourse, can (as they thinke) fasten such things vpon them: A sober Christian must not giue heede to all that is said in this kinde. These things must be examined with right iudgement, and euer with much charitie, and patience, remembring that our selues know in part, and prophesie in part. In a word [...] this should not haue so much disquieted you.

Nor yet that which you adde, That euery one pretends Scripture. Best of all, Hom. 33. [...] Act. saith Saint Chrysostome, For if wee should say we beleeue humane reasons, thou mightest with good reason [...] troubled, but when as we receiue the [...], and they bee simple and true, it will [...] thing for [...] to [Page] i [...]dge, &c. And to what purpose indeed serues the facultie of [...]son perfected and polished with learning? wherefore the supernaturall light of Faith? wherefore the gift of God in vs Ministers con [...]erred by the imposition of hands? but [...] which side handles the Word of God deceitfully, which sincerely. But here againe, Each side arrogates the Holy Ghost in his fauour. What then? If wee our selues haue the anointing, 1. Ioh. 2. 20. 27 & 4. 1. we shall be able as we are bidden to trie the spirits, whether they bee of God or no? For wee will not b [...]leeue them, because they say they haue the Spirit, or cannot bee deceiued, but because their Doctrine is consonant to the principles of heauenly Truth, which by the writings inspired by himselfe, the Holy Ghost hath grauen in our hearts. Which writings are well acknowledged by you, to be the Law and Rule, according whereunto, in iudgement of Religion we must proceede.

CHAP. III.
Of the want of a humane externall infallible Iudge and Interpreter.

AS to that you say, did about all trouble you, the want of a certaine humane externall infallible Iudge to interpret Scripture, and define Questions of Faith without error. What if you found not an externall humane Iudge, if you had an internall diuine one? And hauing an infallible Rule by which your humane Iudge should proceede, why should you trust another mans applying it, rather then your own, in a matter concerning your owne saluation? But i [...] God haue left vs no such externall Iudge, if Antiquitie knew [...], if Religion neede none, it was no iust motiue to leaue vs, that you could finde none, amongst all those Sects which [...]. And how much lesse if you haue [...] amended your selfe where you are; which we shall consider by and by?

[Page] I say then first, that to make this your motiue of any moment, it must be shewed, that God hath appointed such a Iudge in his Church. Let that appeare out of some passage of holy Scripture. For your conceit or desire that such a Iudge there should be, to whom you might in conscience obey, and yeeld your selfe, because he could not err [...], doth not proue it. You would know the Truth, onely by the authoritie, and sole pronouncing of the Iudges mouth. A short and easie way, which to most men is plausible, because it spares the paines of studie and discourse. To such especially, as either out of weaknesse dare not trust their owne iudgement, or account it shall haue the merit of humilitie, to bee led by their Teachers. But what now if God will haue you call no man your Father vpon earth? If he will send you to his Word? and after you haue receiued the Faith by the Churches testimonie out of the easie and plaine places thereof, bid you search the Scriptures, to finde the Truth in the remnant, and pick it out by your owne industrie.Luke 16. The rich man being in hell torments (in whose wordes I doubt not but our Sauiour doth impersonate and represent the conceits of many men liuing in this world) presumes that if one were sent from the dead his Kinsmen would hearken to him, but he is remitted to Moses and the Prophets. The Iewes as I perceiued by speech with some of them at Venice, make it one of their motiues, that our Lord Iesus is not the Christ. He should not, say they, haue come in such a fashion, to leaue his owne Nation in doubt and suspence; and scandalize so many thousands; but so as all men might know him to be what he was. Miserable men! that will giue lawes to God. Of which fault be you a ware also (good Master Waddesworth) and be content to take, not to prescribe the meanes by which you will be brought vnto the knowledge of the Truth▪ to vse what hee hath giuen, not to coniecture and diuine what he must giue.

But God failes not his Church in such meanes as be necessarie. [Page] Let vs therefore consider the necessitie of this Iudge. Where I beseech you consider (for I am sure you cannot but know it) that all things necessary to saluation are euidently set downe in holy Scripture? This both the Sciptures themselues doe teach, and the Fathers auouch, namely Saint Augustine and Saint Chrysostome, and others. I forbeare to set downe their words, or further to confirme this Lemma, which I proued at large against another aduersarie, and shall at all times make good if it be questioned. Besides these points, there are a great manie other though not of such necessitie, yet euidently laid downe also in the same Scriptures, by occasion of them. Manie by iust discourse may be cleared from these, and the former. If any thing yet remaine in suspence, and vnknowne, yea or if you will erred in, so it be not wilfully and obstinately, yet shall it be euer without perill of damnation to him that▪ receiueth what the holy Ghost hath plainely deliuered. What necessitie then of your imaginarie Iudge? Yes▪ for Vnitie is a goodly thing, not onely in matters necessarie, but vniuersally in all. Controuersies must not bee endlesse. But how comes it to passe then that your Iudge, whosoeuer hee be, doth not all this while decide the question touching the Conception of the Blessed Virgin, that is betweene the Dominicans, and Franciscans, nor that betweene the Dominicans and Iesuites touching Grace and Free-will; and all other the points that are controuerted in the Schooles; to spare contention and time (a precious commoditie among wise men) and giue this honour to Diuinitie alone, that in [...]t all doubts should be reduced to certainties? Or if it seeme no wisedome to bee hastie in deciding such questions; wherein wittie and learned men are engaged, least in stead of changing their opinions, they should fall to challenge not onely the infallibilitie, but which were more dangerous the authoritie of their Iudge: If it be thought better to leaue scope to opinions, opposition it selfe profitably seruing to [Page] the boulting out of the truth. If vnitie in all things bee as it seemes despaired of, by this your Gellius himselfe;Cic. [...]. de Legibus. why are wee not content with vnitie in things necessary to saluation, expresly set downe in holy Scripture: and anciently thought to suffice, reseruing infallibilitie as an honour proper to God speaking there? Why should it not be thought to suffice, that euery man hauing imbraced that necessarie truth, which is the rule of our faith, thereby trie the spirits whether they be of God or no. If hee meete with any that hath not that doctrine, receiue him not to house, nor salute him. If consenting to that, but otherwise infirme or erring, yet charitably beare with him. This for euery priuate man. As for the publike order & peace of the Church, God hath giuen Pastors and Teachers, that we should not bee carried about with euery winde of doctrine, and amongst them appointed Bishops, [...] to command that men teach no other or forraine doctrine, which was the end of Timothy his leauing at Ephesus, 1. Tim. 1. 3. Then, the Apostles themselues by their example, haue commended to the Church the wholsome vse of Synodes,Act. 15. 6. to determine of such controuersies as cannot by the former meanes be composed; but still by the holy Scriptures, the Law or Rule, as you say well, by which all these Iudges must proceede. Which if they doe not, then may they be deceiued themselues, and deceiue others as experience hath shewed, yet neuer bee able to extinguish the truth.

To come to Antiquitie. There is not any one thing belonging to Christian Religion, if wee consider well, of more importance, then how the puritie of the whole may bee maintayned. The Ancients that write of the rest of Christian Doctrine, is it not a miracle, had they knowne any such infall [...]ble Iudge, in whose Oracle the securitie of all, with the perpetuall tranquillitie of the Church is contayned, they should say nothing of him? There was neuer any Age wherein there haue not beene heresies, and sects▪ [Page] to which of them was it euer obiected that they had no infallible Iudge? How soone would they haue fought to amend that defect, if it had beene a currant doctrine in those times, that the true Church cannot bee without such an Officer? The Fathers that dealt with them, why did they not lay aside all disputing, and appeale them only to this Barre? Vnlesse perhaps that were the let which Cardinall Bellarmine tells the Venetians, Rispos [...]a ad vn [...] lettera, &c. hindered Saint Paul from appealing to Saint Peter, l [...]st they should haue made their Aduersaries to laugh at them for their labour. Well: howsoeuer the Cardinall hath found out a merrie reason for Saint Paules appealing to Caesars iudgement, not Peters, lest hee should expose himselfe to the laughter of Pagans: what shall wee say when the Fathers write professedly to instruct Catholike men,Tertull. de Praescript. &c. of the forepleadings and aduantages to bee vsed against Heretikes, euen without descending to triall by Scriptures? or of some certaine generall and ordinarie way to discerne the Truth of the Catholike Faith from the prophane nouelties of heresies? Vincent. Lyrine [...]s. Had they knowne of this infallible Iudge, should wee not haue heard of him in this so proper a place, and as it were in a cause belonging to his owne Court. Nay, doth not the writing it selfe of such bookes shew, that this mattter was wholly vnknowne to Antiquitie? For had the Church beene in possession of so easie and sure a Court to discouer and discard heresies, they should not haue needed to taske themselues to finde out any other. But the truth is, infallibilitie is, and euer hath beene accounted proper to Christs iudgement. And as hath beene said, all necessarie Truth to saluation hee hath deliuered vs in his Word. That Word, himselfe tells vs, shall iudge at the last day. Yea, in all true decisions of Faith, that Word euen now iudgeth, Christ iudgeth, the Apostle sits Iudge▪ Christ speakes in the Apostle. Thus Antiquitie.

[Page] Neither are they moued a whit with that obiection: That the Scriptures are often the matter of Controuersies. For in that case the remedie was easie which Saint Augustine shewes to haue recourse to the plaine Lib. de Vaitate. places, and manifest such Eccles. c. 5. &. 19. as should need no interpreter: for such there bee, by which the other may bee cleered. The same may be said, if sometimes it be questioned, which bee Scriptures, which not. I thinke it was neuer heard of, in the Church, that there was an externall infallible Iudge, who could determine that question. Arguments may be brought from the consent or dissent with other Scriptures, from the attestation of Antiquitie, and inherent signes of diuine authoritie, or humane infirmitie: but if the Auditor or Aduersarie yeeld not to these, such parts of necessitie must needes be laid aside. If all Scripture be denied (which is as it were exceptio in iudicem ante litis contestationem) Faith hath no place, onely Reason remaines. To which I thinke it will scarce seeme reasonable, if you should say, though all men are liers, yet this Iudge is infallible; and to him thou oughtest in conscience to obey and yeeld thy vnderstanding in all his det [...]rminations, for hee cannot erre. No not if all men in the world should say it. Vnlesse you first set downe there is a God, and stablish the authoritie of the bookes of holy Scripture, as his voyce, and thence shew if you can, the warrant of this priuiledge.

Where you offi [...]me, the Scriptures to be the law and the rule, but alone of themselues cannot bee Iudges; if you meane, without being produced, applied, and heard; yee say truth. Yet Nicodemus spake not a [...]isse,Ioh. 1. 51. when hee demanded, Doth our law iudge any man, vnlesse it heare him first? hee meant the same which Saint Paul, when hee said of the high Priest, thou sittest to iudge me according to the law: and so doe we when wee say the same. Neither doe wee send you to Angels, or God himselfe immediately, but speaking by his spirit in the Scriptures, and (as I haue right now said) alledged, and by discourse applied to the matters in [Page] question. As for Princes, since it pleased you to make an excursion to them, if wee should make them infallible Iudge, or giue them authoritie to decree in religion as they list, as Gardiner did to King Henry the eight, it might well bee condemned for monstrous, as it was by Caluin, As for the purpose, Licere Regi interdicere populo vsum calicis in Coena, Quarè? Potestas. [...]. summa est penes Regem, quoth Gardiner. This was to make the King as absolute a Tyrant in the Church, as the Pope claimed to bee. But, that Princes which obey the truth, haue commandement from God, to command good things, and forbid euill, not onely in matters pertaining to humane societie, but also the religion of God, this is no new strange doctrine, but Calums, Institut. l. 4. c. 20. August. contr. Crescō. l. 3. c. 51. and ours, and S. Augustines, is so many words. And this is all the Head-ship of the Church wee giue to Kings. Whereof a Queene is as well capable as a King, since it is an Act of authoritie, not Ecclesiasticall Ministery; proceeding from eminencie of power, not of knowledge, or holinesse. Wherein not onely a learned King, as ours is; but a good old woman (as Queene Elizabeth, besides her Princely dignitie was) may excell as your selues confesse, your infallible Iudge himselfe. But in power hee saith, hee is aboue all: which not to examine for the present, in this power Princes are aboue all their subiects I trow; and Saint Augustine saith plainly, to command and forbid, euen in the religion of God, still according to Gods Word, which is the touchstone of good and euill. Neither was King Henry the eight, the first Prince that exercised this power, witnesse Dauid, and Salomon, and the rest of the Kings of Iudah before Christ, And since that Kings were Christians▪ the affaires of the Church haue depended vpon them, and the greatest Synodes haue beene by their Decree, Proëmiol. 5. as Socrates, expresly saith. Nor did King Henry claime any new thing in this Land, but restored to the Crowne the ancient right thereof, which sundry his predecessors had exercised as our Historians and Lawyers with one consent affirme.

[Page] The rest of your induction of Archbishops, Bishops, and whole Clergie in their Conuocation house, and a Councell of all Lutherans, Caluinists, Protestants, &c. is but a needlesse pompe of words, striuing to win by a forme of discourse, that which gladly shall bee yeelded at the first demand. They might all erre, if they were as many as the sand on the sea shoare, if they did not rightly apply the rule of holy Scriptures, by which, as you acknowledge the externall Iudge, which you seeke, must proceed. As to your demand therefore, how you should be sure when, and wherein they did, and did not erre; where you should haue fixed your foot? to forbeare to skirmish with your confirmation (That though, à posse ad esse non valet semper consequentia, yet, aliquando valet: &, frustra dicitur potentia quae nunquam dueitur in actum.) To the former whereof I might tell you, that without question, nunquam valet: and to the second, that I can verie well allow, that errandi potentia, among Protestants be euer frustra. This I say freely, that if you come with this resolution to learne nothing by discourse, or euidence of Scripture, but only by the meere pronouncing of a humane externall Iudges mouth, to whom you would yeeld your vnderstanding in all his determinations: if, as the Iesuites teach their Schollers,Regula 1. & 1 [...]. you will wholly deny your owne iudgement, and resolue, that if this Iudge shall say, that is blacke, which appeares to your eyes white, you will say it is blacke too; you haue posed all the Protestants; they cannot tell how to teach you infallibly. Withall I must tell you thus much, that this preparation of minde in a Scholler, as you are, in a Minister, yea in a Christian, that had but learned his Creed, much more that had from a childe knowne the holy Scriptures, that are able to make vs wise to saluation, 1. Tim. 3. 15. through the faith that is in Christ Iesus, were too great weakenesse, and to vse the Apostles phrase childishnesse of vnderstanding.1. Cor. 14. 20.

But at length you heard a sound of harmony and consent, that in the Catholike Church, as in Noahs Arke was infallibilitie,[Page]and possibilitie of saluation; which occasioned you to seeke out, and to enter into this Arke of Noah. The sound of consent and infallibilitie is most pleasing and harmonious, and vndoubtedly euer and onely to bee found in the Catholike Church, to wit, in the rule of Faith, and in the holy Scriptures, and such necessarie doctrine as perfectly concordeth with the same. But as in song many discords doe passe in smaller notes, without offence of the eares, so should they in smaller matters of opinion in the Church, without the offence of iudicious and charitable mindes. Which yet I speake not to iustifie them; nay, I am verily of the minde, that this is the thing that hath marred the Church musicke in both kindes, that too much libertie is taken in descant to depart from the gound, and as one saith, notae nimium denigrantur. The fault of the Italians: though they thinke themselues the onely songsters in the world. But to returne to you, tell me, I beseech you (good Master Wadesworth) was this the harmonie that transported you. The Pope himselfe saith, I cannot erre, and to mee thou oughtest to haue recourse for decision of doubts in matters of faith. And whereas this is not onely denied by Protestants, but hath beene euer by the French, and anciently I am sure by the Spanish, lately by some Italian Diuines also, vnlesse hee vse due meanes to finde the truth; yea, whereas it is the issue of all the Controuersies of this age; in this snare you fastned your foot, this was the Center that settled your conscience, this the solid and firme foundation of your faith. What? and did it not moue you, that some limit this infallibilitie of the Pope thus, if hee enter Canonically, if hee proceed aduisedly, and maturely, vsing that diligence that is fit to finde out the truth; that is (as you said before) proceeding by the rule, the Scriptures? Albeit to the Fathers of the African Councell it seemed incredible (as they write in their Synodall Epistle to P. Coelestine standing for appeales to himselfe) that God can inspire the right i [...] t [...]iall to one, denying it to many Bishops in a [Page] Councell. Tell vs then, who made you secure of these things? or did you in truth, neuer so much as make question of them, but hearing this harmonious sound; The Pope is the infallible Iudge, you trusted the new Masters of that side, Gregory de Valentia, and Bellarmine, that whether the Pope in defining doe vse diligence or no, if hee doe define, Analyst Fidei Cathol. pa 8. hee shall define infallibly. Alas Sir! if this were the rest you found for the soale of your foot, instead of moueable water, you fell vpon mire and puddle; Or rather like to another Doue mentioned in Scripture, columba seducta non habens cor, Oseae, 2. 1 [...] ▪ by the most chaffie shrap that euer was set before the eyes of winged Fowle, were brought to the doorefall. Excuse my griefe, mixed I confesse with some indignation, but more loue to you, though I thus write. Many things there be in Poperie inconuenient, and to my conceit weakely and vngroundedly affirmed, to say no more; but this is so absurd and palpably a flatterie, as to omit to speake of you, for my part I cannot bee perswaded that Paulus the fifth beleeues it himselfe. For consider I pray, what needed anciently the Christian Emperours, and sometimes at the request of the Bishops of Rome themselues, to haue gathered together so many Bishops from so diuers parts of the world to celebrate Councells, if it had beene knowne and beleeued then, that one mans sentence might haue cleered all controuersies, and put all heresies to silence? How durst sundrie holy, and learned men haue reiected his decisions, whether right or wrong is not now the question, vnchristianly out of doubt on their parts, if hee had beene then holden the infallible Oracle of our religion? As when Polycrates, with the Bishops of Asia, and Irenaeus also yeelded not to Victor, excommunicating the Easterne Churches about the celebration of Easter, when Saint Cyprian, with the first Councell of Carthage of eightie sixe Bishops had decreed, that such as were baptized by heretickes, should bee rebaptized, and certified Stephanus of this Decree, and he opposed it, and would haue [Page] nothing innouated, would Cyprian after that haue resisted and confuted Stephanus his letter, had he knowne him for infallible? And how doth hee confute him? as erring, writing impertinently, Epistol [...] ad Pompe [...]um. contrarie to himselfe. Yea, let it bee obserued, that hee doth not onely not account Stephanus infallible, but not so much as a Iudge ouer any Bishop. See the Vote of Cyprian, and note those wordes. Neque enim quisquam nostrum Episcopum se esse Episcoporum constituit, ant tyrannico terrore ad obsequendi necessitatem collegas suos adigit, quando habeat omnis Episcopus pro licentia libertatis & potestatis suae, arbitrium proprium, tanquam iudicari ab alio non possit cum nec ipse possit alterum i [...]dicare. Sed exspectemus vniuersi iudiciū Domini nostri Iesu Christi, qui vnus & solus habet potestatē & praeponendi in Ecclesiae suae gubernatione, & de actis nostro iudicandi. A passage worthy to bee noted also, for the cleering of the independence of Episcopall authoritie from the Pope, which I now let passe. Neither was Saint Cyprian herein alone: Firmilianus, and the Easterne Bishops, resisted Stephanus no lesse, as appeares by his Epistle, which in the Romane edition of Manutiu [...] ▪ set forth by the command of Pius the fourth, with the suruey of foure Cardinalls, whereof one is now a Saint, with exquisite diligence; is wholly left out. And Pamelius saith hee thinkes purposely, for himselfe is of the minde that it had beene better it had neuer come forth. But to returne to our purpose. The Fathers of the Councell of Africke, and Saint Augustine amongst them, resist three Popes succeeding each other, Zosimus, Boniface, and Coelestinus, about appeales to Rome; shall we thinke they would euer haue done it, if they had knowne or imagined them to be the supreme and infallible Iudges in the Church? I let passe the Schisme betweene the Greeke and the Latin Church, which had not happened, if this doctrine had beene anciently receiued. Nay, it is verie plaine in storie, that the Bishop of Romes lifting vp himselfe to bee Vniuersall Bishop chiefly caused it. To conclude, neither Liberius, nor [Page] Honorius, to omit many other Bishops of Rome, had euer beene taxed of heresie, if this had anciently beene currant, that the Pope is infallible. I will not stand now to examine the shamefull defence that Bella [...]mine makes for the latter of these, bearing downe Fathers, Councells, Stories, Popes themselues, as all falsified or deoeiued herein. Wherein because hee is learnedly refuted by Doctor Raynolds, I insist not vpon it. This I presse, that all those Writers and Councels, and amongst them Pope Leo the second accursing Honorius, did not then hold, that which by Pighius and the Iesuites is vndertaken, that the Pope is infallible. Euen the Councell of Basil, deposing Eugenius (for obstinately resisting this truth of the Catholike faith, That the Councell is aboue the Pope) as an Heretike, doth shew the sense of Christendome euen in these latter times how corrupt soeuer, both in rule, and practice.

And because you make this infallible Iudge to be also an infallible Interpreter of holy Scripture, how happens it that Damasu [...] Bishop of Rome consults with Hierome about the meaning of sundrie Texts of Scripture, when it seems himselfe might haue taken his pen, and set him downe quickly, that which should haue taught both him and the whole Church, not onely without danger but euen possibilitie of error? Sure wee are little beholding to the diligence of our Ancestors, that haue not more carefully registred the Commentaries (or because they haue had for sundrie Ages small time to write iust Commentaries) the expositions which in their Sermons, or otherwise the Bishops of Rome haue made of holy Scripture. A worke which if this Doctrine were true, were more worth then all the Fathers; and would iustifie that blasphemie of the Canon Law, where by a shamefull corruption of Saint Augustine, the Decretals of Popes are inrolled amongst the Canonicall Scriptures. [...]. in [...] Dist. 19. I am alreadie too long in so plaine a matter: yet one proofe more which is of all most sensible. Being admonished by this your conceit of an infallible Interpreter, [Page] I chanced to turne ouer the Popes Decretals, and obserued the interpretation of Scriptures. What shall I say? I finde them so leud, and cleane beside the purpose, yea oftentimes so childish & ridiculous, both in giuing the sense, and in the application, that I protest to you in the presence of God, nothing doth more lothe me of Poperie, then the handling of holy Scripture by your infallible Interpreter alone. Consider a few of the particulars, and especially such as concerne the Popes owne authoritie.Significasti de electione. Ioh. 21. 15. To iustifie his exacting an oath of fealtie of an Archbishop, to whom he grant [...] the Pall, is brought our Lord Iesus Christ who committing the [...]are of his Sheepe to Peter, did put too a condition, saying, Sid diligis me pasce oues meas. Christ said, if thou louest me feede my sheepe; Why may not the Pope say, If you will sweare me fealtie, you shall haue the Pall. But first hee corrupts the Text: Christ said not, If thou louest mee: Then, Christ puts not Peters loue as a condition of feeding, but feeding as a proofe and effect of his loue. And if the feeding of Christs sheepe were sought, loue to him and them might suffice to be professed, or if he would needs haue more then Christ required, to be sworne. What is this to the oath of fealtie? Straight after to the obiection, that all oathes are prohibited by Christ, nor any such thing can bee found appointed by the Apostles after the Lord, or in the Councels, he vrges the wordes following in the Text,Matth. 5. 34. Sweare not at all; quod ampli [...]s est à malo est, that is saith hee, Euill compels vs by Christs permission to exact more. It is not euill to goe from the Popes obedience? to condemne Bishops without his priuitie? to translate Bishops by the Kings commandement? See the place, and tell me of your Interpreters infallibilitie. Treating of the translation of Bishops, or such as are elected vnto other Sees, hee saith:Inter corpor. De translatione Episcopi. That since the spirituall Bands is stronger then the carnall, it cannot be doubted but Almightie God hath reserued the dissolution of the spirituall marriage that is betwixt a Bishop and his Church, to his owne iudgement alone; Matth. 19. 26. charging that whom God hath [...]oyned man seuer[Page]not. For it is not by humane but rather diuine power that spirituall marriage is dissolued, when as by translation or cession by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome (whom it is plaine to bee the Vicar of Iesus Christ) a Bishop is remoued from his Church. An admirable interpretation of the Text, Quos Deus coni [...]nxit! by which the Pope not onely challengeth that which is proper to Gods iudgement onely, as hee saith, viz. to dissolue the bond of spirituall wedlock; but because that is the stronger, of [...]arnall it seemes also; when it shall please him.

The anointing of a Prince since Christs comming is translated from the head to the shoulder, De sacra Vnctione. Esay 9. 6. 1. Sam. 9. 24. by which Principalitie is fitly designed, according to that which is read, Factus est principatus super humorum eius; for signifying also whereof, Samuel caused the shoulder to be set before Saul. Who should euer haue vnderstood these Texts, if your infallible Interpreter had not declared them? But this is nothing yet to the exposition of those Texts which the Pope interprets in his answere to the Emperor of Constantinople,Solicite. De maioritate. 1. Pet, 2. 13. as Subditi estote omni humanae oreaturae propter Deum, &c. He tells him that Saint Peter wrote that to his owne Subiects, to prouoke them to the merit of humilitie. For if he had meant thereby to lay the yoke of subiection vpon Priests, it would follow that euery seruant were to rule ouer them, since it is said, omni humanae creaturae. After, Iris not barely set downe, Regi praecellenti, but there is put betweene, perhaps not without cause; tanquam; And that which followes, ad vindictam malefactorum, laudem vero bonorum,Vers. 14. is not to bee vnderstood that the King or Emperor hath receiued the power of the sword vpon good and euill men; saue onely those who vsing the sword are committed to his iurisdiction according to that which the Truth saith, They which take the sword shall perish with the sword. For no man ought or can iudge anothers seruant, Matth. [...]6. 5 [...]. since the seruant according to the Apostle standeth or falleth to his owne Lord. For the loue of God consider this interpretation, and compare it with Saint Chrysto [...]e vpon Rom. [Page] 13. Nay doe but reade the Text attentiuely, and iudge of the infallibilitie of your Interpreter. Straight after hee tells the Emperor, that hee might haue vnderstood the prerogatiue of Priesthood out of that which was said, not of euery man but of God, not to the King but to the Priest, not to one descending of the Royall stocke but of the Priestly linage of the Priests, to wit, Ierem. [...]. 10. which were in Anathot. Behold, I haue set you ouer nations and kingdomes, to pull vp, and destroy, to build and to plant. See the prerogatiue of the Priesthood out of Ieremies calling to bee a Prophet. O if hee had beene high Priest! This had beene a Text for the nonce. But hee goes on. It is said in Gods Law also,Exod. 22. [...]8. Thou shalt not raile on the Gods, nor curse the Prince of [...] thy people. Gen. 1. 16. Dijs non detrabes, & Principem populi tui non maledices. Which setting Priests before Kings cals them Gods, and the other Princes. Compare this exposition with Dauids and Paules, Psal. 82. and Act. 23. 5. and yee shall see how the Interpreter hath hit the marke. Againe, yee ought to haue knowne, quod fecit Deus duo magna luminaria, &c. See the exposition, and the difference betweene the Pope and Kings both in the Text and Glosse. Now although the Glosse writer were no excellent Calculator, yet out of Clauius the account may bee cleared: who tells vs the Sunne exceedes the Moone 6539. times and [...] Io [...]. 21. 16. I let passe the collection out of Pasce oues meas, that [...]e belongs not to Christs fold that doth not acknowledge Peter and his Successors his Masters and Pastors: Matth. 16. 19. out of Quodcuin (que) ligaueris, that nothing is excepted. Indeed the Pope excepts nothing, but looseth Vowes, Contracts, Oathes, the bond of Allegeance and Fealtie betweene Subiects and their Princes: The Commandement of Christ, Drinke yee all of this, &c. But our Lord expounds himselfe, Iohn 20. Whose sinnes yee remit, they are remitted, &c.

Ex ore sedentis in throno procedebat gladius his acutus.3 Ex ore. De his quae fiunt, Tit. 11. This is, saith the Pope, the sword of Salomon, which cuts on both sides giuing euery man his owne. Wee then who albeit vnworthy bold the place of the true Salomon, by the fauour of God, doe wisely exercise this Sword, when such causes as in our audience [Page] are lawfully canuassed, wee doe with iustice determine. This interpretation first corrupts the Text, for it hath not, out of the mouth of him that sate on the Throne, but that sate on the Horse; next, it peruerts it, for it is not the sword of Iustice but of Christs Word, which is more piercing then any two-edged sword that issueth out of his mouth.Heb. 4. 12▪ As for that of Iustice, he neuer assumed it, but renounced it rather, 4 Per venerabil [...]m. Qu [...] filij sint legitim [...]. Deu [...]. 17. 8. when hee said. Man who made mee a diuider to you? Luk. 12. 14. To proue that in other Regions besides the patrimonie of the Church, the Pope doth casually exercise temporall iurisdiction, it is said in Deuteronomie, Si difficile sit & ambiguum, &c. And because Deuteronomie is by interpretation [...]he second Law, Surely by the force of the Word it is proued, that what is there decreed should bee obserued in the New Testament. For the place which the Lord did choose is knowne to bee the Apostolike See. For when as Peter fleeing went out of the Citie, the Lord minding to call him backe to the place hee had chosen, being asked of him, Lord whither goest thou? answered, I goe to Rome to bee crucified agai [...]e. The Priests of the Tribe of Leus are the Popes coadiutors. The high Priest or Iudge, he to whom the Lord said in Peter Quodcunque ligaueris, &c. His Vicar who is a Priest for euer after the order of Melchisedeck, appointed by God the Iudge of quicke and dead. He that contemnes the Popes sentence is to bee excommunicated, for that is the meaning of being commanded to be put to death. Doth not this well [...]ollow out of the word Deuteronomie? And Rome is the place that Christ did choose, because he went, he said, to bee crucified there. Onely there is a scruple of the high Priest, for as much as he that is high Priest after Melchisedecks order [...] hath a Priesthood that passes not into another, Heb. 7. He addes there, that Paul that hee might declare the fulnesse of power, writing to the Corinthians saith: Know yee not that yee shall iudge the Angels?1. C [...]r. 6. [...]. how much more the things of the world? Is this then the Popes plenitude of Power, to iudge secular things? or was Corinth [Page] the Apostolike See, and so many Popes there euen of the meanest of the Church? What shall we say to that exposition of the famous Text. T [...] es Petrus & super ha [...] petram a edificabo Ecclesiam mea [...]:Matth. 16. 18. Cap. Fundament [...] de Elect. in 6. The Lord (he saith) taking peter i [...]to the fellowship of the vndiuided Vnitie, would haue him to bee called that, which hee was himselfe, that the building of the eternall Temple might by the maru [...]llous gift of God consist in Peters firmenesse. What is this vndiuided Vnitie? Not of the Trinitie, I trow, or Natures in Christ. What then? his office? of which hee said a little before out of the Apostle, that no man can lay any other foundation but Iesus Christ. Yes: that from Peter as a certaine head hee should as it were powre abroad his gifts into his whole body. That the Church might stand vpon Peters firmenesse. This foundation Saint Paul knew not, when hee blamed I am of Ceph [...]s. Peters infirmitie cannot beare vp the weight of such a building, much lesse (which we must remember the Romanists vnderstand by this Iargon) the Papes his Successors.

Such another interpretation is that of Pope Boniface, Ioh. 10. 16. Extra Vnum Testam. that makes Vnum Ouile & vnus Pastor, the Church and the Pope. But it is plaine our Sauiour alludes to the prophesies, Ezek. 34. 23. & 37. 24. where the Lord cals that one Pastor his seruant Dauid. What blasphemie is this, thus to vsurpe Christs Royalties? What Father, what Councell, what Catholike man euer interpreted this Text on this manner? By which the Pope while hee seekes the name of the Sheepherd, shuts himselfe out of Christs fold?

Yea the same Pope cals the Church his Spouse also,Cant. 4. 9. c. quoniam. De Immunitate. and so other Popes since. Saint Iohn the Baptist tels them, that he that hath the Bride is the Bridegroome. Saint Paul prepared her to one husband Christ, If shee bee the Popes Spouse with her will, shee is a Harlot: if against her will, hee is a Rauisher, and our Lord Iesus Christ will deliuer her out of his leud embracements, crying out of the violence which shee suffers, as it is to be hoped shortly.

That in the Churches power are two swords, the spirituall [Page]and temporall, we are taught by the wordes of the Gospell, saith the same Boniface. For when the Apostles said, Behold, there be two swords here (to wit, in the Church) when the Apostles spake thus, Luk. 22. 38. the Lord answered not that is was too much, but enough. Certainly, hee that denies the temporall sword to be in Peters power, doth ill obserue the speech which our Lord vtters, Put vp thy sword into the sheath. No doubt an infallible interpretation; by which it should appeare that both the swords that were in our Sauiours companie, hung by Saint Peters side, or else that some other had the spirituall, leauing none to Saint Peter, but that which he might not vse. The exposition is Saint Berenards, you will day, But in an Epistle paraeneticall to the Pope himselfe; Saint Bernard might haue leaue to vse allusions, and after his manner to bee liberall of all that the See of Rome challenged, that he might haue the more authoritie to reforme the abuses of it. As to grant Peter the temporall sword, but so, as hee must not vse it. Quid tu gladium denno vsurpare tentes, quem semel iussus es ponere in vaginam? and he shews how these two swords bee the Churches. The one to bee drawne out for the Church, the other also by the Church. This by the Priests, that by the Souldiers hand, but at the beck of the Priest, and bidding of the Emperor. But the Pope in a Decretall Epistle, pretending to teach the world, in a point as he pronounces necessarie to saluation, with such an interpretation as this; argues little reuerence to the Word of God, and a very meane opinion of the iudgements and consciences of christen men, if they could not discerne this to be a strangers voice, not Christs. Besides that, he changes Saint Bernards wordes, and cleane peruerts his meaning. For, exerendus, he puts in exercendus. For, ille Sacerdotis, is militis manu, sed sanè ad nutum Sacerdotis & iussum Imperatoris. Pope Boniface thinking iussum to absolute in the Emperor, makes him to bee the executioner and ioynes him with the Souldier, on this manner. Ille Sacerdotum, is manu Regum & Militum sed ad nutum & patientiam[Page]Sacerdotis. Saint Bernard makes the executiue power to be in the Souldier, the directiue in the Priest, the commanding in the Emperor. Pope Boniface makes the Kings and Souldiers to haue only the executiue, the directiue & permissiue to be in the Priest. Yea sword, he saith, must be vnder sword.Rom. 13. 1. For where the Apostle saith, There is no power but of God, que autem sunt, à Deo ordinata sunt; more fully in the originall text, the powers that are, are ordained, that is, appointed of God: the Interpreter here dreames of order and subordination, and cities a saying of Dionysius, that the lowest things are reduced to the highest by the middlemost; a conceit that makes nothing to the purpose of the Apostle in that place.

Hee proceeds and tells vs, that of the Church and power Ecclesiasticall, Ierem. 1. 10. is verified the prophecie of Ieremy. Behold I haue set thee this day ouer Kings and Kingdomes, &c. Tell me, good Master Wadesworth, what is to peruer [...] the Scriptures, if this bee not, to apply to the power Ecclesiasticall, that which is spoken of the word and calling Propheticall? Yet more, The earthly power, if it swerue out of the way shall bee iudged of the power spirituall, but if the spirituall, that is lesser; of that which is superiour to it. But if the highest, it may bee iudged of God onely, not of man, the Apostle witnessing the spirituall man iudgeth all things, 1. Cor. 2. 15. but himselfe is iudged of none. Wee are come at length, as it were to the fountaines of Nilus to the originall of the infallibilitie of your Iudge; and if hee haue here rightly interpreted Saint Paul, we learne that no earthly power, no Magistrate is a spirituall man, vnlesse hee bee one of the Popes spiritualtie. For these be Saint Pauls spirituall men, that iudge all things. Yet this must receiue limitation. For no man may iudge the Pope, the supreme Spirituall man, for of him it seemes Saint Paul meant it, his authoritie hee saith is not humane, but diuine, by the diuine mouth giuen to Peter, and his successors, when the Lord said to him, Quodcunque ligaueris.

[Page] For conclusion,Rom. 12. 2. whosoeuer resists this power thus ordered of God, resists the ordinance of God, vnlesse as Manichaeus he faine two beginnings: which (saith hee) wee iudge to bee false and hereticall, sith by Moses record, not in the beginnings, Gen. 1. 1. but in the beginning God created Heauen and Earth. Who would not acknowledge the diuine authoritie and infallibilitie of your Interpreter, both in confirming his purpose, and conuincing heresies from so high a beginning, as this first sentence of holy Writ? What rests now, but after so many testimonies he inferre▪ Furthermore, to be vnder the Bishop of Rome we declare, say, define, and pronounce that to euery humane creature it is altogether of necessitie of saluation. Thus saith your infallible Iudge and Interpreter of Scripture, the center of your conscience, and foundation of your Faith, not as a priuate Doctor, but as Pope, in his owne Law, intending to informe and bind the Church, and that in matters with him of the greatest importance that may bee, touching his owne authoritie, and as hee pretends absolutely necessarie to saluation, to all the sonnes of Adam.

I might heape vp many more, but these may suffice for a sample. You may (and so doe by your selfe I beseech you) obserue these kind of interpretations in other points also, and in other the Decretals & Breues of Popes; which as I heare, are lately come forth in great volumes. You shall finde many mysteries in your faith, that perhaps you know not of, as,Rom. 8. 8. Syricius Epist. 4▪ & Innocent. Ep. 2. That you cannot please God because you are married: for so is that place of the Apostle interpreted, qui in carne viuunt Deo placere non possunt. That not onely the wine in the Chalice, but the water also is transubstaniated first into wine, then into Christs bloud. That it wasIoh. 19. 34. c. Inter cunctas. not watry moisture, but the true element of water which issued out of Christs side. You shall findeRom. 10. 10. confession of sins to the Priest, proued by the text, Corde creditur a'd iustitiam, ore autem fit confessio ad salutem. Matth. 13▪ 8. That the good ground, that receiued the seed in the Gospel, is the religion of the [Page] Friers Mi [...]rs. Iam. 1. 27. That this is that pure and immaculate religion with God and the Father, which descending from the Father of lights, deliuered, exemplariter & verbaliter, by the Sonne, to his Apostles, and then inspired by the holy Ghost, into Saint Francis aud his followers, containes in it selfe the testimony of the Trinitie. This is that, which as Saint Paul witnesseth, no man must be troublesome vnto, which Christ hath confirmed with the prints of his Passion. The text is,Gal. 6. 17. decaetero nemo mihi molestus sit, ego. n. stigmata Domini Iesu in corpore nemo porto. It is maruell, if Saint Paul were not of the order of Saint Frances. That when Christ said,Matth. 28. 20. Loe I am with you, &c. Clem. 3. de Reliq. Tract. in Iob 50. Ecce ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus, hee meant it of remaining and being with them euen by his bodily presence. Saint Augustine vpon the same text denies this, and saith, that according to the presence of his body hee is ascended into heauen, and is not here. ThatC. Ma [...]nus De cognat. spirit. 4. Mat. 19. 5. the Father of the childe christened, and his Godfathers wife may not marry, because, according to the Lords word, the husband▪ and the wife are made one flesh by marriage. C. non debet De consang. 1. Cor. 7. 4. That the number of Foure, doth well agree to the degrees prohibited in corporall marriage, of which the Apostle saith, The man hath not the power of his owne body, but the woman, nor the woman power of her body, but the man, because there are foure humours in the body, which consist of the foure Elements. For conclusion, you shall finde it by a commodious interpretation concluded, contrarie to many texts of Scripture, out of Scripture it selfe, thatCum ex. De. [...]aeretici [...] 5. no simple and vnlearned man presume to reach to the subtility of the Scripture, because, well it was enacted in the law of God,Heb. 12. 20. that the beast which should touch the mountaine should be stoned. Exod. 19. 13. For it is written,Ecclu. 3. 22. Seeke not things higher then thy selfe. Rom. 12. 3. For which cause the Apostle saith, Be not more wise then it behooueth, but be wise to sobrietie.

One thing more also you shall finde, that now adayes this spirituall man and sole infallible interpreter of Scripture, seldome interprets Scripture, or vses it in his Decretalls and Br [...]es, Nay the stile of his Court hath no manner of [Page] smack or sauour of it. A long compasse of a sentence, intricate to vnderstand, yea, euen to remember to the end, full of swelling words of vanitie, with I know not how many ampliations and alternatiues; after the fashion of Lawyers in Ciuill Courts, not of sober Diuines, much lesse of the Spirit of God in his Word. Some man would perhaps thinke this proceeds from an affectation of greatnesse, and the desire of retaining authoritie, which seemes to bee embased by alledging reason, or Scripture, and interpreting texts. For my part, I account it comes as much from necessitie. For it is notorious, that neither the Popes themselues, nor those of the Court the Secretaries and Dataries, which pen their Bull and Breues, haue any vse or exercise in holy Scripture, or soundnesse in the knowledge of Diuinitie, or skill in the originall tongues, wherein Gods Word is written; all which are necessarie to an able Interpreter. And therefore it is a wise reseruednesse in them, not to intermedle with that wherein they might easily fault; especially in a learned age, and wherein so many watchfull eyes ate continually vpon them. And to this very pouertie and cautelousnesse I do imp [...]te it, that the present Pope in his Breues about the Oath of Alleageance, vseth not aword of Scripture: But tells his faction, that they cannot without most euident and grieu [...]us iniury of Gods honour take the Oath, the tenor whereof hee sets downe word for word; and that done, addes. Quae cum ita sint, &c. Which things (saith hee) since they bee so, it must needs be cleere vnto you out of the wordes themselues, that such an oath cannot bee taken, with the safetie of the Catholike faith, and of your soules, sith it containeth many things which are apparantly contrary to faith and saluation. Hee instances in no one thing, brings neither Scripture nor reason, but a Quae cum ita sint, without any premisses. Which loose and vngrounded proceeding, when as it is occasioned the Arch-Priest here, and many other of that side, to thinke those letters forged, or gotten by surreption; hee sends [Page] another of the same tenor, with this further reason. Haec aut [...] est mera pura, integraque volunt as nostra. This is now to be more then an Interpreter, euen to be a Lord ouer the faith of his followers, to make his will a reason. What would ye haue him doe? to alleadge a better he could not, a weake and vnsufficient one he was ashamed, hee thought it best to resolue the matter into his sole authoritie. Whereby he hath proued himselfe a fallible both Iudge and Interpreter, yea a false witnesse against God and the truth; commanding by the Apostle Christian men to be subiect, and to giue euery man their dues, feare to whom feare, honour to whom honour; and much more (if there be any difference) allegiance to whom allegiance.

CHAP. IIII.
Of the state of the Church of England, and whether it may be reconciled with Rome.

BVt of your interpreters infallibilitie enough. Your next doubt, whether the Church of England were of the true Church or no, was resolued with a Paralogisme, partly by reason of equi [...]ocation, and diuers acception of the tearmes the Church, and to erre, partly by composition and diuision in the connexion of these by those Verbes [can, or may.] Let vs examine the seuerall parts of your Syllogisme.

The Proposition. The true Church cannot erre, is confirmed by the consent of all. Excuse me Sir, if I withhold my consent, without some declaration and limitation. I say first it must bee declared whether you meane the Catholike Church, or a atrue part of the Catholike Church. For there is not the like reason of these to error. Against the Catholike Church,Math. 16. hell gates shall not preuaile; against particular, when Christ doth remoue the Candlesticke out of his place, Reuel. 2. 5. they doe. Witnesse the Churches of Africke, sometimes most Catholike. [Page] And thus it seemes you must take this tearme, since your doubt was whether the Church of England be of the true Church or no, Besides, I must desire to know, what manner of errours you meane; whether euen the least, or onely deadly, and such as barre from saluation, which the Apostle cals [...], heresies of perdition, 2 Pet. 2. 1. Take now your owne choise; for if you speake of euery errour, the proposition is false, euen of the Catholike Church, much more of any particular Church. Yea, I adde further, not onely of the Catholike Church by denomination from the greatest part, or by representation, as the Pastors or Prelates thereof met in a Councill, which is still the mixt Church, but euen that which is Christs true body, whereof he is the Sauiour, and which shall be with him for euer. As for deadly and damnable errors, this true and properly called Church, both in the whole and euerie part of the mixt Church, is yet priuiledged from them finally: [...] for it is kept by the power of God to saluation, it is not possible the Elect should thus be seduced. [...] Truth it is, that by such errors particular visible assemblies, vniuersally and obstinately defending them, become falsely called Churches, from which wee are to seperate our selues. Example in the Synagogue, and in Churches of the Arians.

Now let vs see your Assumption. But the Church of England, head, and members, King, Clergie, and people, yea awhole Councell of Protestants may erre by your owne grant. I answer, the Church of England that is the Elect in the Church of England, which onely are truely called the Church, can neuer deadly erre. This no Protestant will grant yee. The mixt Church of England, head, members, King, Clergie, and the residue of the people, and a whole Councell of Protestants, may erre damnably, and therefore much more [...]all into lesser errors. This they grant. And if they shall so erre obstinately, they shall deseruedly loose the name of a true Church. But they denie they doe thus err; yea they denie that they erre de facto, at all.

[Page] What followes in conclusion? Ergo, No true Church. This shortnesse in suppressing the verbe, would make a man thinke you ment to couer the fault of your discourse. And indeede you might by that meanes easily beguile another, but I cannot be perswaded you would willingly beguile your selfe. Sure you were beguiled, if you ment it thus. Ergo, it is no true Church. See your Argument in the like: A faithfull witnesse cannot lye. But Socrates or Aristides may lye by his owne grant. Ergo, no faithfull witnesse. He that stands vpright cannot fall: but you Master Waddesworth by your owne grant may fall, Ergo, stand not vpright. Perhaps your meaning was, Ergo, it may become no true Church, to wit, when it shall so erre damnably. But then it followes not, There is now no saluation in it, and therefore come out of it now. When you shew that, I shall account you haue done wisely to goe out of it. Shew that in anie one point, and take me with you. In the meane while, for my part, I shall sooner trust that chapman that shall say to me, Loe here is a perfect yard, I will measure as truely as I can, and when I haue done take the yard and measure it your selfe; then him that shall say here is thus much, yee shall not neede to measure it, but take it on my word: yea though one of his Apprentices should stand by and say, he could not deceiue mee though hee would; as Benedictus a Benedictus, tels the present Pope, Volens nolens errare non potes.

Where you relate, your endeauour to defend the Church of England, and tell of the Puritanes reiecting those Arguments you could vse from the authoritie of the Church, and of the ancient Doctors interpreting Scriptures against them, flying to their owne arrogant spirit: I cannot excuse them for the former, nor subscribe to your accusation in the latter. Perhaps you haue met with some more fanaticall Brownists or Anadaptists, whom here you call Puritans. But these that are commonly so called, which differ from the Church of England about Church gouernment and ceremonies onely, giue indeede [Page] to little to the authoritie of men, how holy, learned, or ancient soeuer. Which is their fault, and their great fault, especially in matters of this nature; yet they flye not to their owne spirit as you charge them.

That which you adde that you perceiued the most Protestants did frame the like euasions when you came to answere the Arguments against them on the other side; when you shall shew this in particulars, I shall beleeue it. In the meane while I beleeue you thought so; for commonly mediocrities are aggrauated with the hatred, & slandered with the names of both extreames. But in the question betweene the Popish faction and vs, you might easily haue discerned why the argument from bare authoritie, is not of such validitie. For ceremonies and matters of order may be ordered by wise men, & are not the worse, but the better if they be ancient, yea if they be common to vs with Rome, which Puritans will by no meanes allow. In doctrin, if holy men, yea if an Angell from heauen shall innouate any thing, wee are not to admit it. Now the controuersies betweene the Romanists and vs, are most about doctrine, and they exceede as much in extolling the authoritie of the ancients in their priuate opinions and incommodious and strained speeches, as the Puritans in depressing them. We hold the meane, and giue as much to the authoritie and testimonies of the Fathers, as may stand with the truth of holy Scriptures, and as themselues deferre to the writing of others, or require to be giuen to their owne.

Next you tell, of your following their opinion who would make the Church of England and the Church of Rome still to be all one in Essentiall points, and the differences to be accidentall. Confessing the Church of Rome to be a true Church, though sicke, or corrupted, and the Protestants to be derined from it, and reformed. This opinion is not onely as you write fauoured of many great Schollers in England, but is the common opinion of all the best Diuines of the reformed Churches that are or haue beene in the world, as I shewed in part of another [Page] worke, which as I remember you had a sight of. Wherein yet I feare you mistake the tearme, accidentall, which doth no [...] import that our differences are but sleight and of small confideration, but that all those opinions and abuses which we reforme and cut off, are not of the Faith, but superfluous and [...]oraine, yea hurtfull and noisome to it, as the weedes are to the corne, which ouer-grow and choake it. And to follow this similitude, the state of the Church vnder the Romane obedience, and that part which is reformed, is like a field ouergrowne all with weedes, thistles, tares, cockle: some part whereof is weeded and clensed, some part remaines as it was before; which makes such a difference to the view, as if it were not the same corne. But being better considered, it will be found all the difference is, from the weedes, which remaine there, and here are taken away. Yet neither here perfectly, nor all where a like, but ac [...]ording to the industrie of our weeders, or conueniencie of the worke, with care of the safetie of the good corne. By this Parable, you may see what is to be hoped of your labour to reconcile most of our particular controuersies. For although I doubt not but in some it may be performed, where the difference is rather verball then reall; and in the manner of teaching, rather then in the substance of doctrine. And if moderate men had the matter in handling the flame of contention in a great many more might be troden downe and slaked, suppose the sparkes not all extinct; yet in some other, it is as possible to make the weede and corne-friends, as your and our opinions; where there is none other remedy but that of our Sauiour, Euery plant that my heauenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted out. Neither doth this impossibilitie arise more out of the nature of the things, then the affection of the persons. For the Pope and the Court of Rome, which are those that domineere on that side, doe no lesse out of the feare of their owne ruine deadly detest all reformation, then the reformed out of their present view and former feeling, the tyrannie of the [Page] Papacie, which they see doth excommunicate, and put to cruell death all that are of this way. And which is a prodigious thing, where they tolerate the blasphemous and professed enemies of Christ, euen with allowance of the publike exercise of their Religion, there doe they burne men professing Christs religion, according to the ancient and common rule thereof, with that vprightnesse of conscience, that if they had as many liues as there be Articles thereof, they would giue them all rather then renounce any of them.

As for the Protestants making the Pope Antichrist, I know it is a point that inrageth much at Rome. But if the Apostle Saint Paul, if Saint Iohn in the Reuelation, describe Antichrist so, as they that doe but looke vpon the Pope well, must be forced to say as the people did of the blinde man in the Gospell, some, this is [...]e; others, he is very like him; if himselfe and his flatterers doe, and speake such things, as if all others should hold their peace, doe in a sort proclaime, I am he; what can the Protestants doe with the matter? I will take the liberty here to relate to you, what I saw while I was in Venice, the rather because it is not impertinent to our present purpose. And though perhaps you may haue heard somewhat of it, yet the particulars are I suppose vnknowne in those parts. And yet it doth more import they were knowne there then otherwhere, being occasioned by a subiect of the Crowne, though of a name and family whereto it is not much beholding.

In the yeare 1608. F. Thomas Maria Carafa, of the order of the Friers Preachers, Reader of Philosophy in Naples, printed a thousand Theses to be disputed thrice; once at Rome in the Church of Saint Marie super Mineruam, twice in Saint Dominickes at Naples. Of these fiue hundred were in Logicke, Naturall Philosophy, Metaphysicke, and Mathematickes; fiue hundred more in Diuinitie, amongst which that was one. Solus Petrus & success [...]res in totam Ecclesiam illimitatam iurisdictionem habent. These were all [Page] included in the forme of a Tower, and dedicated with an Epistle to the present Pope Paulus the fift, to whose armes alluding he saith, idem Draco biceps qui vtrumque polum amplexus imperio ad Ecclesiae pomoerium tanquam ad amaenissimos Hesperidum hortos peruigil excubat, nullius Herculis vim metuens, turris etiam mea sit custos. On the top of his Tower, was this representation curiously and largely cut. An Altar, with two Columnes, and their ornaments, according to the rules of Architecture. In the middest for the Altar peece was the Popes picture, very liuely portraied to the breast. Ouer his head was the word, Vultu portendebat imperium. Aboue on the toppe of the front, in three compartiments his armes thus. On the one side the spread Eagle alone, the word Ipse mihi fert tela pater. On the other a Dragon, and by it Meliora seruo. In the middest both together in one scutchion with the crosse Keyes and triple crown in the crest. On either side of these colums were depending Crownes and Scepters, whereof sixe were on the right hand after the Christian fashion. The Imperial aboue, other vnderneath, and lowest the Corno of the Duke of Venice, so they call a certaine Cap the Prince vseth to weare being of Gold Embroderie, and somewhat resembling a horne. There were also Turkish Turbanes, and Diadems of diuers fashions, as many on the left side. By these on either side of the columnes, were two of the foure parts of the world. Europe and Afrike on the one, Asia and America on the other, in the habite of Ladies sitting vpon their proper beasts couchant, each offering vnto him that was aboue the Altar of their commodities, Corne, Fruits, Incense, &c. On the base of the columne on the Christian and Europaean side, was the word, Et erunt Reges nutritij tui. On the other, Vultu in terram demisso puluerem pedum tuorum lingent, Esai. 49. Agreeable whereto there was made flying ouer their heads two Angels, on each side, one with these sentences in their hands. That ouer Europe and Africk; Gens & regnum quod non seruierit [Page]illi, in gladio & in fame, & in peste visitabo super gentem illam ait Dominus, Hier. 27. That ouer Asia and America: Et dedit ei Dominus potestatem & regnum, & omnes populi ipsi seruient: potestas eius potestas aeterna quae non auferetur & regnum eius quod non corrumpetur, Dan. 7. Now iust vnderneath the picture of the Pope, on the foreside of the Altar, was this inscription, PAVLO V. VICE DEO CHRISTIANAE REIP. MONARCHAE INVICTISSIMO ET PONTIFICIAE OMNIPOTENTIAE CONSERVATORI ACERRIMO. The Copies of these Theses were sent as Nouelles from Rome, and did the more amuse men at Venice, because of the controuersie that State had with the Pope a little before, and the seeing their Dukes Corno hanged vp among his Trophees, vnder all other Princes Crownes. But most of all the new title Vice-Deo, and the addition of Omnipotencie gaue matter of wonder. The next day it was noised about the Citie, that this was the picture of Antichrist; for that the inscription P A V⁵ L⁵⁰ O V.⁵ V⁵ I¹ C¹⁰⁰ E-D⁵⁰⁰ E O, contayned exactly in the numerall Letters the number of the beast in the Reuelation 666. What anger and shame this was to the Popish faction, I leaue it to you to esteeme. But whom could they blame, but themselues, who had suffered so presumptuous and shamelesse a flatterie to come forth, with publike approbation, annexing also so blasphemous an inscription, as vnawares to them by the prouidence of God, should so plainly characterize Antichrist? But to heale vp this matter againe, not long after we had fresh newes went about, that Antichrist was borne in Babylon, had done many miracles, was comming toward Christendome with an Armie. Wee had an Epistle stampt at Venice, pretended to bee written at Rome, An. 1592. by the Reuer. D. Valentinus Granarensis touching the birth of Antichrist his stocke, progenie, countrie habitation, power, maruels, life, and death, out of the holy Scriptures, and Fathers, printed Cum priuilegio. And as for the Title Vice-Deus, as if they would haue it in despite of all [Page] men: one Benedictus à Benedictis a subiect of the Venetian State, setting out a Booke against Doctor Whitakers position, De Antichrist [...], at Bologn [...] (for at Venice it was not suffered to bee printed) reuiues it with aduantage. Hee dedicates it thus, Paulo Quinto Pontifici Vniuersalis Ecclesiae Oecumenico, summo totius Orbis Episcopo at (que) Monarchae & supremo Vice-Deo. These Titles he heapes vpon the Pope againe, and againe, and that yee may iudge of his wit by one place, in the conclusion, exhorting Doctor Whitakers to repentance; hee tels him, that by his example his King, and with the same King Iames the first, many Englishmen, conuertentur ad Dominum Deum, & ipsius loco ad Vice-Deum confugient. And pag. 135. hee saith of Gregorie the Great. Totum mundum quasi Monarcha ac Vice-Deus optimè & irreprehensibiliter rexit, &c. Hee might haue learned of him, that his other Title Oecumenicus Pontifex, is the very name of Antichrist, the name of blaspheme, by which hee doubts not to presage, that Antichrist was neere, and an Armie of Priests readie to attend vpon him. In this if euer in any thing, it seemes your Iudge was infallible.

It will bee said here, it is not in the Popes power what his followers will say of him, he stiles himselfe the Seruant of Gods Seruants. If the Canonists will call him, Our Lord God the Pope,Apologia pro Garneto, c. 5. first, it may be denyed. Secondly, it may be laid to the ouer-sight of the Writers or Printers. Thirdly, if it bee shewed to bee left standing still in the Glosse of the Canon Law, by them that were appointed to ouer-see and correct it, what maruell if one word escaped them, through negligence, or wearinesse, or much businesse? And yet if they thought the sense of the word not so vsuall indeed in the ordinarie talke of Christians, but not differing from the custome of Scripture was to bee allowed to an ancient Writer, the matter deserues not such outcryes. But the Pope, such is his modestie, neuer vsurped this Title full of arrogancy, neuer heard it with patient eares. To this, let it first bee considered, that the Censors of such things as come to the Presse, are not to bee imagined such [Page] Babes, as not to know what will please or displease his Holinesse. Especially in writings dedicated to himselfe, a man may be sure they will allow nothing the second time, and after some exception and scandal taken at it, but what shall bee iustified. How much more in the Popes owne Towne of Bologna, and when his Chaplaine could not bee allowed to print it at home. But to let all these goe; wee may haue a more sensible proofe how the Pope tastes these Titles. That which hee rewards hee approues: Benedictus was shortly after made for his paines Bishop of Caorli. How worthily hee deserued it you shall iudge by his booke; which at my request vouchsafe to reade ouer, and if there be any merit, you shall sure get great meede of patience in so doing. That you may not doubt of the Popes iudgement concerning these Titl [...]s, you shall further know, that the matter being come to the knowledge of the Protestants in France, and England, made them talke and write of it broadly, namely the Lord of Plessis, in his Mysterium iniquitatis, and the Bishop of Chichester in his Tortura Torti. This gaue occasion to the Cardinall Gieurè, to relate in the Officio Santo at Rome of the scandall taken hereat, and to make a motion, De moderandis titulis. It was on foot sundrie moneths. At last the Pope reuoking it to himselfe, blamed those that had spoken against these Titles, and said, they were no whit greater then the authoritie of S. Peters Successor did beare. To returne thither whence I haue a litle digress [...]d. In the question whether the Pope bee the Antichrist or no, for my part I despaire of all reconciliation. For neither doth there appeare any inclination at all in the Pope to reforme any thing in Doctrine or Gouernment, nay he encroacheth daily more and more vpon all degrees euen among his owne subiects, and resolues to carry all before him at the brest, with his Monarchy and infallibilitie. On the other side, the Reformers partly emboldned with successe, partly enforced by necessitie, chiefly tyed with band of conscience, and perswasion of truth, are not like to retract [Page] what they haue affirmed in this behalfe, and whatsoeuer their differences be in other things, in this point they haue a maruellous vn [...]tie amongst them. These in France hauing beene molested for calling the Pope Antichrist haue beene occasioned (as I haue heard) some few yeares since to take it into their Confession, thereby to iustifie themselues accor [...]ing to th' Edicts of Pacification giuing them libertie to pro [...]esse their Religion. In England as you know it is no part of the doctrine of our Church, yet a commonly receiued opinion. Howbeit this is so farre from hindering, that the reformed Chu [...]ches and those which heretofore were, or at this present are vnder the Popes obedience be one Church, that is, all members of the Catholike; that the Protestants without this cannot make good the other. For Antichrist must sit in the Temple of God, and that is in the Church, as Chrysostome and Theophylact interpret it, and Gods people could not be commanded to goe out of Babell, if he had none there.

CHAP. V.
Of the safenesse to ioyne to the Roman being confessed a true Church by her opposites.

BVt you concluded hence, that seeing many of the best learned Protestants did grant the Church of Rome to be a true Church, though faultie in some things; and contrarily not onely the Romanists, but Puritanes, Anabaptists, and Brownist denie the Church of England to be so, therefore it would be more safe and secure to become a Roman Catholike, &c. This discourse hath a pret [...]e shew at the first blush, and perhaps was vsed to you since your comming to Spaine, as it was to some there before. At my comming to Venice I fell vpon certaine letters and reports, set forth as it was told me by F. Posseuine, and not vnlike by his mindefulnesse [Page] to all occasions to aduance the credit of his societie. Amongst them there is one said to be a true Relation of the manner how M. Pickering Wotton was conuerted to the Catholike Roman faith, indited as it is said and subscribed by himselfe before his death. In which by a certaine Father of the companie of Iesus an Englishman by nation, the like discourse was vsed, as it is said, to him. That hee should consider well, that he and other Protestants did not denie that the Catholikes might be saued in their faith, whereas all the Catholikes that either liued at the present, or euer were, hold it as a most certaine Article of Faith, that the Protestants and other heretickes cannot be saued out of the Catholicke Church; therefore if he should become a Catholike, he should enter into that way which was safe, by the consent of both parts. This consideration be saith moued him not much then. But after praying to God, as he was also aduised by that Father, to direct him into the right way, if hee were out of it, suddenly hee saw a certaine light very clearely before his eyes in forme of a crosse. Whereupon incontinently there was offered vnto him such a heape of reasons and arguments by which was shewed that the Catholike faith is the onely way of saluation, and that of the Protestants on the contrarie most absurd and abominable, that most euidently he was conuinced, without any the least doubt. And these reasons which then offered themselues to him, were for the most part such as hee did not remember that he had euer heard them in all his life. Thereupon with vnspeakeable ioy he called backe the Father, told him what had hapned, praied him to heare his confession, and he examining him vpon all the heads of the Catholike religion, which he most firmely and entirely beleeued, heard his confession, &c. But this narration deserues little credit. First creating Master W [...]tton for the greater glorie of their triumph a Baron▪ vnlesse the Fathers in Spaine, or Posseuine in Italie haue a [...]acultie to create Barons. Next it is a very improbable thing that Master Wotton dying of a Calenture should haue so good a memorie, as to indite so exact and artificiall a Narration, with such formalitie, and enforcements [Page] in fit places, as any Reader of vnderstanding must needes perceiue, came out of a diligent forge, and needed more hammering and fyling then so. But that of all other is most Legendlike, that howsoeuer this motiue of yours is vsed, yet it is not made the effectuall inducement, but a heape of reasons in the twinkling of an eye, and causing him not onely to beleeue in the grosse, but to be able to giue ac [...]ount of all the heads of the Catholike religion (that is all the points of controuersie at this day, betweene the Romists and the reformed Churches) in a fit of an Ag [...]e, in the twinkling of an eye? Excuse mee: this is beyond the blinde begger that recouered his sight at Saint Albans that could tell the names of all colours as soone as hee saw them. What then? Was not Master Wotton reconciled? and saw he not a light in forme of a crosse? Yes: and this your motiue was vsed to him also, and perhaps moued him more then all the heape of reasons besides. But shall I tell you here what I haue heard from the mouth of one that was himselfe then in Spaine, that both could know the truth of this matter, and had no reason to tell me a lye, sith what hee said came freely from himselfe, without feare, or hope, or almost enquirie? The Gentleman being sicke, and weake in his braine, the Father that Posseuine tels of, brought vnder his gowne a picture, and vpon a sudden presented it before him: this might be the light in forme of a crosse (perhaps a very image of Christ crucified) which together with the lightnesse of his fancie, occasioned that your motiue though it selfe also very light, might carrie him: as a little weight is able to sway much, where the beame it selfe is false. If this be true (as I take the liuing God to record I faine no thing, but doe relate what hath beene told me) as on the one side I doubt not, but God in his mercie did interpret of the Gentlemans religion, according to his right iudgement and perswasion in his health, and not according to the erronious apprehension of his fancie in his sicknesse (which euen in his best [Page] health was euer very strong in his sleep) as some that haue conuersed with him haue tolde mee: So on the other side, they shall bea [...]e their iudgement whosoeuer they were, that would with so cru [...]ll a craftinesse take aduantage of his infirmitie, and make his storie after a stale to draw on others. As for the heape of Arguments to conuince the Protestants faith to bee absurd (that must bee by the way the Articles of the Creed) Posseuines Catholike Hyperboles are well enough knowne in Venice, and hee hath beene there told to his head,A [...]uertiment [...]al P Ant Posseuino. p. 7. & 14. That if in things past, whereof hee might haue beene informed, hee proues a most lying Historian, it might more easily fall out, that hee should proue a most false and ridiculous prophet in things to come.

And in truth he hath proued so hitherto. Wherefore, I reckon these garnishments of Master Wottons peruersion, to bee like the rest of his newes, touching the Conquest of Moscouia by Demetrius that Impostor, whom he boasteth in a manner to haue been the Scholler of his Societie. W [...]ere hee tells the world that the army cried out often. God and the prayers of our Fathers (the Iesuites) haue subdued the hearts of our enemies, and inclined them vnder our Noble Prince Demetrius. That Demetrius turning to the Priests of the company of Iesus, was heard to say [Loe that which you foretold mee, O Fathers, in the time of that sorrowfull flight of ours, is now come to passe, to wit, that as the Lord God had afflicted mee much, so on the contrary hee would much comfort mee, and that therefore I should not doubt of a full victory.] These wordes Posseuine stamps in his former Relation in Capitall letters. But when this bold enterprise was ouerthrowne, and this suborned fugitiue slaine and shamefully dragged vp and downe the streets of Mosco, then loe the repors were, That a light was seene ouer his body in the night time, &c. Let them that walke in darknesse follow such lights as these be. Wee are no children of the night, nor of darkenesse. Leauing therefore those vnheard of [Page] Arguments, which Posseuine hath not onely cunningly drawne a veyle ouer, that wee may not see them, but exempted by priuiledge of a miracle that wee may not try them, this which he hath shewed vs, let vs bring it a little to the cleere day-light.

And euen at the first view it is apparent that this Argument is meerely forraine; not drawne from any thing, à par [...]e rei, as what the true Church is, what it teacheth, or such like, but from opinion and testimony. What men say of that of Rome, and of the Reformed Churches, &c. Now opinions are no certaine grounds of truth, no not in naturall and ciuill matters, much lesse in religion. So this Argument at the most is but Topicall and probable. Let vs see the parts of it. And first that ground. The testimony of our selues, and of our contraries is much more sufficient and certaine then to iustifie our selues alone. Surely neither the one nor the other is sufficient, or certaine. It is true, that if other proofe faile, and we will follow coniectures. hee is in probabilitie an honester man, that others beside himselfe say well of, then hee that alone testifieth of himselfe. And yet according to truth, this latter may bee a right honest man, and dwel, as we say, by ill neighbours, or where he is not knowne, or requires not the testimony of other men: Whereas the other being indeed a knaue, is either cunning to conceale it, or hath suborned other like himselfe to say for him, or dwells b [...] honest men that iudge and say the best. And in this very kind, our Sauiour attributes so little to testimony, Luk [...]. 6. 26. as he pronounces a woe to them that all men speake well of. So in our case it is more probable I grant, if there were no other Argument to cleere it, but opinion, and most voyces, that you haue the true Church, and are in the way of saluation then wee because we giue you a better testimony then you doe vs. But it is possible we are both deceiued in our opinions, each of other; wee through too much charitie, and you and others through ignorance or malice. Herein vndoubtedly we haue the aduantage [Page] of you and the rest, and doe take that course which is more safe and sure to auoid sinne, that if we doe faile of the truth, yet we be deceiued with the error of loue, which as the Apostle saith, hopeth all things, and is not puffed vp. Wee auoid at the least that gulfe of rash iudgement, which, mee thinkes, if the case bee not too to cleere wee should all feare, With what iudgement yee iudge, Matth. 7. 6. yee shall bee iudged. Thou that iudgest another condemnest thy selfe. Rom. 2. 1.

But that you may a little be ter consider the weaknesse of this discourse, if the testimony of our selues and our contraries were sufficient and certaine to make tru [...]h, and euer more safe and secure to follow that side which hath that testimony, it had beene better to haue become a Iewish Proselyte, in the Apostles times then a Christian [...] For the Christ [...]ans acknowledged the Iewes to be the people of God, heires of the promises, and of Christ, and stiled them Brethren, notwithstanding their zeale to the ceremonies, and tradi [...]ions of their Fathers, excused their ignorance, bare with them, laboured to giue them content in all things. Whereas they to the contrarie called those that professed Christ, Heretickes and Sectaries, accursed them, drew them out of [...]heir Synagogues, scourged them, cast them in prison, compelled them to blaspheme: as you doe now Protestants to adiu [...]e, though in other cruelties I confesse you goe farre beyond them. By like reason a Pagan in Saint Augustines time, should rather haue made himselfe a Christian among the Donatists, then with the Catholikes. For the Catholikes granted the Donatists Baptisme to bee true, accoun [...]ed them Brethren. The Donatists to the contrary renounced their Brother-hood and Baptisme both, rebaptized such as fell to their side, vsed these formes to their friends, Saue thy Soule, become a Christian: like to those vsed by your Reconcilers at this [...]ay.Aug. Epist. 4 [...]. & [...]. [...]9. De [...] l. [...]. c. 7.

Lastly consider, if this ground of the testimony of our contraries for our part, and their lack of ours, for theirs be [Page] sure; you haue iustified the cause of the Protestants in the maine question, which is the better religion. For whatsoeuer a Protestant holds, as of Faith, you cannot deny to bee good and Catholike, nor any Christian man else. For hee binds him to his Creed, to the holy Scriptures, and goes no further: and in these he hath your testimony for him. But hee denies many things which you beleeue, and accounts them forreine, yea repugnant to Faith, as the Popes infallibilitie, Transubstantiation, Purgatory, worshipping of Images, inuocation of Saints. In all these you speake onely for your selues, in some of these you haue not vs onely, but all other Christians your opposites, to say nothing of the Iewes and Turkes, whom I might as well chocke you withall, as you doe the Protestants with Anabaptists. So by this reason our profession is more safe and secure, and questionlesse is more Catholike then yours. Neither haue wee in this discourse the Argument onely as you see very appliable and fauourable to vs, but (which I would entreate you by the way to obserue) the conclusion it selfe often gran [...]ed by moderate and sober men of your owne side, viz. that our course is in sundry things more safe then yours. As in making no Image of God.Abulensis. In trusting onely in the merits of Christ.Bellarmine. Faber. In worshipping none but the Trinitie. In directing our prayers to our Lord Iesus Christ alone.Erasmus. In allowing Ministers to marry.Cassander. In di [...]ers other points also many of your side say the same with the Protestants,Hofmeister. Aeneas Syluius. and defend vs from the imputations which others of you lay vpon vs, as is shewed in the Catholike Apologie, by the Reuerend Bishop of Chester.

This to the proposition. Let vs come to the Assumption, where you mince too much the Protestants opinion touching the Church of Rome, when you make them say, It is peraduenture faultie in some things: Nay without peraduenture, they say, It is corrupt in doctrine, superstitious and Idolatrous in religion, tyrannicall in gouernment, [Page] defiled in manners, from the crowne of the head to the soale of the foot no soundnes in it, as the Prophet saith of another like it;Isai 1. 6. yet the vitall parts not perished, readie to die,Doctor Raynolds. Thes. 5. yet not dead. A true Church though neither the Catholike Church, nor yet a sound member of the same. That also is false in the assumption, that the Puritans denie the Church of England to bee a true Church. Vnlesse the Puritans and Brownists bee with you all one, which you haue made diuers Sects aboue, and then are you to blame as to multiply names (whereof I haue told you) before, so now againe to confound them.

What is now the Conclusion? It would be more safe and secure to become a Roman Catholike. But the Proposition wil not inferre thus much simply, but onely in this respect. For Topicall arguments (as you know) hold onely, caeteris paribus. We must then inquire if there be no other intrinsecall arguments by which it may bee discerned, whether cause bee the better, whether pretence to the Church and Truth, more iust, more euident. Whether it may bee warranted to returne to Babell, because God hath some people there; when as he commands those that are there to come out of it. How safe it may bee willingly to ioyne with that part of the Church, which is more corrupt in Doctrine and Manners, when wee may continue with that which is reformed. These points were to haue been scanned, ere you concluded and executed as you did.

And such Arguments there want not. Christ our Lord hath giuen vs amongst others, two infallible Notes to know his Church. My Sheepe, saith hee,Iob 10. 27. heare my voice: Chap. 13. 35. and againe, By this shall all men knowe that yee are my Disciples if yee loue one another. What shall wee stand vpon coniecturall Arguments from that which men say? We are partiall to our selues, malignant to our opposites. Let Christ bee heard who bee his, who not. And for the hearing of his voice, O that it might be the issue! But I see you decline it, Therefore I leaue it also for [Page] the present. That other is that which now I stand vpon: the badge of Christs sheepe. Not a likelihood, but a certaine token, whereby euery man may know them. By this, saith he, shall all men know that yee are my Disciples, if yee haue charitie one towards another. Thanks be to God: This marke of our Sauiour is in vs, which you with our Schismatikes, and other enemies want. As Salomon found the true Mother by her naturall affection, that chose rather to yeeld to her Aduersaries plea clayming her childe, then endure it should bee cut in peeces, so may it soone bee found at this day, whether is the right Mother. Ours, that saith, giue her the liuing child, and kill him not; or yours, that if shee may not haue it, is content it bee killed, rather then want of her will. Alas, saith ours, euen of those that leaue her, these be my children, I haue borne them to Christ in Baptisme, I haue nourished them as I could with mine owne breasts his Testaments. I would haue brought them vp to mans estate, as their free birth and parentage deserues. Whether it bee their lightnesse or discontent, or her enticing wordes and gay shewes, they leaue me, they haue found a better Mother. Let them liue yet, though in bondage. I shall haue patience; I permit the care of them to their Father; I beseech him to keepe them that they doe none euill; if they make their peace with him, I am satisfied, they haue not hurt me at all. Nay but, saith yours, I sit alone as Queene and Mistris of Christs family; Reuel. 18. 7. hee that hath not me for his Mother, cannot haue God for his Father. Mine therefore are these, either borne or adopted: and if they will not bee mine they shall bee none. So without expecting Christs sentence, shee cuts in peeces with the temporall sword, hangs, burnes, drawes those that shee perceiues inclined to leaue her, or haue left her alreadie. So shee kils with the spirituall sword, those that subiect not to her, yea thousands of soules that not onely haue no meanes so to doe, but many which neuer so much as haue heard whether there be a Pope of Rome or no. Let our Salomon be Iudge between them: yea iudge you (Master Waddesworth) more [Page] seriously and maturely, not by ghesses, but by the very marke of Christ, which wanting your selues, you haue vnawares discouered in vs, iudge I say without passion, and partialitie, according to Christs Word; which is his Flock, which is his Church.

CHAP. VI.
Of fraud and corruption in alleaging Councels, Fathers, and Doctors.

YOur next Motiue was, That in examining the questions especially about the Church, where you laboured to peruse the originall Quotations and Texts of the Councels, Fathers, and Doctors, you found, as you say, much fraud committed by the Protestants. This imputation of fraud is very vsuall and common to both sides; and verily I beleeue some on both sides are faultie. For whether out of humane infirmitie, mistaking the meaning of Authors, or slips of memorie, trust of other mens Q [...]otations, who tie not themselues to the wordes, but giue the sense they conceiue; how easily may testimonies bee alleaged cleane besides the Authors mindes? Hee that hath strongly conceited any thing, findeth it in all that euer he readeth, or falleth vpon. Too much heat in contention, and desire of victorie, blindeth the iudgement, and maketh a man heedlesly lay hold vpon any thing, that hee thinkes may serue his turne. As wee see sometimes in the writings of the Fathers, which had to deale with ancient Heretikes, alleaging the Scriptures themselues besides the purpose. Sometimes haste and desire of contracting makes one cut off some wordes, and explaine and presse those that make for him; and perhaps leaue out something materiall▪ presently the other side cries out clipping, forgerie, falsification, and what not? But although all this may bee called fraud in respect of the [Page] Reader, who is by this meanes deceiued in his euidence, and therefore if he be not aware may pronounce amisse, yet is it nothing to that kinde, when with an euill conscience and of set purpose falshood is set forth, and Truth out-faced. Wherein I cannot tell what you haue found. I could haue desired, and doe yet if your leisure may serue, you would shew the particulars. I doe professe here to you, that I haue seene and euen felt with my fingers such dealing in the Romish faction, as I cannot resolue whether I should account them more shamefull slanderers, and false accusers of others, of fraudulent handling; or bold and shamelesse, in the practizing of it themselues. When the Lord of Plessis his booke of the Sacrament came out, how was it calumniated in this kind, with falsification? Du Puy in a publike Chartell offered, that of 306. passages in the Preface, he would shew as cleere as the Sunne at noone day, 283. were falsified, corrupted, and mangled, and the rest of no importance. The Bishop of Eureux after Cardinall, vndertooke to shew in the booke it selfe 500. enormous falsities by [...]ale, and without hyperbole. The matter was brought to a triall before the King of France, and nine places examined of this number. And as was before-hand promised the Popes Nuncio, the businesse should be so carried that the aduantage should remaine on the part of the Church of Rome, and the Pope receiue contentment, & in these very words the lie should rest with the Heretikes. Morney was borne downe. The Kings letters to the Duke of Espernon of this victorie, were blowne ouer France, sent to Rome, printed with a discourse thereabout, set forth at Antwerp, and translated into English, with some alteration and Turksing by F. Parsons▪ Wherein hee saith a French Iesuit Fronto Duc [...]us discouered in it at least a thousand falshoods for his part. Hee accuseth Bishop Iewell, and Master Fox of the like crime; hee saith that in two onely leaues of his booke, a certaine learned Scholler did discouer thirtie wilfull and voluntarie corruptions and falsifications that cannot be excused, and himselfe [Page] besides these thirtie, noted so many other plaine falsehoods and manifest wilfull lies, as might well double the former number. And by Arithmetick hee multiplies this number with the number of the leaues, the number hee saith will rise to 30000. by which Iohn Fox his booke will as much exceede Iohn Sleidans storie in number of lies (in which were found onely 11000) as it doth in bulke and bignesse. This manner of writing of these men, brings to my minde that which Sir Thomas More writes of Tyndals New Testament, Dialog. l. 3. c. 8. wherein hee saith, were founden and noted wrong and falsely translated aboue a thousand Texts by tale. The language is like, and the cause is the same. Men were loath these bookes should be read. The substance of them was such as could not be controlled; the next remedie was to forestall the Readers mindes with a prejudice of falsification, that so they might not regard them, but cast them out of their hands of their owne accord. The Vulgar sort would be brought out of conceit at the first hearing, with vehement accusation. Euen wise men would suppose though there should not bee any thing neere so many wilfull faults, yet surely there must needes bee a very great number, and that could not happen but with a very bad meaning; this admitted, who would vouchsafe them the reading? And in truth among those that fauour the reformed part, I haue me [...] with some that out of this buzze of falsification in the Lord of Plessis booke, cared not for reading it; whereby may bee thought in what account it should bee with all those who esteeme all F. Parsons Libels to bee Oracles. But shortly: Sith neither the Cardinall Perone, nor F. Parsons haue had the meanes, or will, to decypher those hundreds and thousands of falsifications in Sleidan, Bishop Iewell, Master Fox, or Plessis, in these so many yeeres, as haue run since they wrote; and as for the last, he hath set forth the booke againe, with all the authorities at large in the margent, in the Authors owne words, and hath answered all those that bayed at it, till they are [Page] silent, what remaines but that we count this multiplying of F. Parso [...]s, may be ioyned with Aequi [...]ocation, to make vp the arte of falsehood; wherein he and his faction may iustly claime to be the worthiest Professors in the world. But without any multiplication or other Arithmeticke, in the fift page of that Relation of his, in the seuen first lines are foure notorious, I will not say lies or falsifications, but falshoods by tale. The first: That the triall being begun vpon the first place, that was found false. The French discourse printed at Antwerp cum priuilegio, and approbation of the Visitor of bookes, saith: And as to the said first Article, nothing was iudged thereabout by the said Commissioners, nor pronounced by my said Lord the Chancellor, and the King said that it should be remitted to another time to deliberate thereabout. The second: Hee (that is, Plessis) would haue passed to the second, but the Bishop refused so to doe, except the Ministers and Protestants there present would first subscribe and testifie that this first place was falsified. Hee said in the page before, that Plessis appeared at last with some foure or fiue Ministers on his side. There were no Ministers appeared with him on his side. No Protestants, no creature did subscribe, or was required so to doe. The third: Which at length they did, viz. subscribe, this place was falsified. A vtter vntruth. Whereof there is not a word in the said printed Narration. The fourth: as well in this as in all the rest. There was no subscription, as I said, at all. The Commissioners were all of the Roman profession, sauing Causabon; and he no Minister. They neuer pronounced, much lesse subscribed that any of those places examined were falsified. Of the first place of Scotus they pronounced nothing. Of the second, of Durand, That the opposition of Durand was alleaged for the resolution. And this they would haue remitted also as the former to another time, saue that the Bishop insisted, saying, it was in vaine to dispute if they would not iudge, addressing his speech diuers times to the King, to the intent hee should signifie his pleasure to the Commissioners; and [Page] then his Maiestie drawing neere to them, they gaue their opinions vpon that Article as before. This was that which F. Parsons stumbled at when hee wrote, The Ministers and Protestants there present subscribed and testified, that it was falsified, and so all the rest. For being ouerioyed with this newes which hee did not well vnderstand (to thinke the charitablest of him) hee thought the Commissioners had beene part at least Protestants, and Ministers: and had subscribed, whereas they pronounced their sentence viua voce, by the mouth of the Chancellour, neuer vsing the tearme falsification; yea in some of the rest they acquited the L. of Plessis, as in the passage of P. Crinitus though they said Crinitus was deceiued. In that of Bernard, that it had beene good to distinguish the two passages of Saint Bernard out of the same booke with an et caetera. Not to stand now vpon that, that in the rest of the places he hath a reasonable and iust defence with indifferent men, for the omissions he was charged with in Chrysostome, Hierome, Bernard, and Theodorit: and in that of Cyril, the King himselfe said aloud, that both sides had reason▪ but F. Parsons not hauing as it appeares receiued perfect information of the particularities of this affaire, was so hastie to write according to the partiall intelligen [...]e he receiued at Rome, that hee faults himselfe in the same kinde, that hee imputes to another. And if he should meete with some seuere aduersarie, that would multiplie his falsehoods by his leaues and lines, as he dealeth with Master Fox, and then extend by proportion his pamphlet to the bignesse of Master Fox his Booke of Martyrs, he would finde, that he prouides very ill for himselfe that is to rigorous and censorious to other men.

But I leaue him, and come to the fidelitie of the Popish faction, whereof I shall desire you to take a taste in one of the questions which you name about the Church, euen that which is indeede cardo negotij, as you say, the controuersie of the Popes authoritie. For the establishing whereof: First, the Epistles of the ancient Bishops of Rome for the space of [Page]about 300. yeares after Christ are counterfeited. The Barbarous not Latine but lead of the stile, and the likenesse of them all one to another, the deepe silence of antiquitie concerning them; the Scriptures alleadged after Hieromes translation, doe conuince them of falshood. And by whose practice and procurement we cannot doubt, if wee aske but as Cassius was wont Cui bono? For at euery bout the authoritie of the Pope, and priuiledges of the Roman See are extolled and magnified.

Next, the Donation of Constantine is a sencelesse forgerie; Dist. 96. c. Constantinus. and so blazed by some of the learnedest of the Roman Church. Reade it aduisedly, either in Gratian, or in the Decrees of Syluester, with the Confession, and Legend of Constantines baptisme, and say out of your owne iudgement if euer any thing can be more fraudulent, more sottish? And because I haue mentioned Gratian, his whole compilation is f [...]ll of falsification, and corruption of Antiquitie: take an example or two in the matter wee haue in hand.Concil. Mile [...]. [...]. 72. The Mileuitene and after the Africane Councils vnderpaine of Excommunication prohibit appeales beyond the Seas. Concil. A [...]ric. c. 12. Which Canons were made purposely to meet with the vsurpations of the Bishops of Rome, of which I haue spoken some what before. Now in the citing this Canon, Gratian addes this goodly explication;c. placuit. qu. 9. 6 nisi forte Romanam sedem appellauerint; thus excepting that abuse which these Councels directly sought to prohibit.De doctrina. Christt. l. 2. Againe, Saint Augustine to informe a Christian man what Scriptures hee should hold for Canonicall, bids him follow the authoritie of the greater part of the Catholike Church, amongst which are those, quae Apostolicas sedes habere, & Epistolas acc [...]pere meruerunt, which had the honour to haue the Apostles sit in them and to receiue Epistles from them. Gratian [...]its it thus, inter qu [...] (Scripturas) sane illae sunt quas Apostolica sedes habere & ab ea alij meru [...]runt accipere Epistolas: and accordingly, the [...] of that Canon is; Inter Canonicas, The Decretall Epistles are numbred amongst the Canonicall Scriptures. True it [Page] i [...], that in the end of the next Canon, Gratian addes a good limitation, and worth the remembering, that this must be vnderstood of such Decrees, in which there is nothing found contrary to the Decrees of the Fathers foregoing, nor the precepts of the Gospell. Belike euen in Gratians time it was not holden impossible, that in the Sanctions and Decretals of Popes, something might be decreed contrary to the Gospel, which may be added to your Iudges infallibility, which hath beene touched before.

But these be old trickes of the Champions of the Papacie. At this day perhaps it is better: yes, and that shall ye vnderstand by the words of the children of the Church of Rome themselues the Venetians. But first ye are to know, that among certaine Propositions set forth in defence of the state, there was one, the fourth in number of eight, That the authoritie promised by our Sauiour Christ to Saint Peter vnder the metaphor of the Keyes is meerely spirituall. For confirmation whereof after other proofe was said, that the authoritie of the highest Bishop is ouer sinne and ouer soules onely; according to the words of that prayer of the Church about Saint Peter—qui B. Petro animas ligandi atque soluendi Pontificium tradidisti. Cardinall Bellermine vndertooke to answere these Propositions, and comming to this place, he saith; that peraduenture Gods prouidence to take away such deceipts, whereby the author of these Propositions would deceiue the simple, with the words of the holy Church misunderstood, inspired into the reformers of the Breuiarie that they should take out of that Prayer the word (animas) as anciently it was not there, nor ought to be; because that prayer was formed out of the words of the Gospell. Quodcunque ligaueris, & quodcunque solueris. Now marke the reioinder that is made to him by Iohannes Marsilius, who numbering vp his errors in the defence of euery proposition, roundly tels him? Erra XIIII. perche dice, &c. He erres in the XIV. place for that he saith, that those which haue taken out of the Breuiarie the word (animas) were inspired by the holy Ghost. I [Page] [...] Quodcunque [...], with the word ( [...]) by that text which explaineth them, [...]; sinnes being in the soule and not in the body, least any should beleeue that the Pope were, Domi [...]s in [...] & spiritualibus, of goods, of bodies, and of soules, and that he might loose and binde euery thing, as it seemes the L. Cardi [...]all beleeueth. And they explained them with the word [...], by which explication a remedy is put vnto all those discords which may arise betweene the Pope and Princes [...] & tuo, Whereas those which haue lat [...]ly taken it away out of the Breuiarie, [...] a new stirred vp occasion of discords and cont [...]tions. Besides that, it is a thing knowne of all men, that in the Bookes of the Councels, of the Canons, of other Doctors, in a word, [...] in the very Br [...]maries and Missals there haue beene and are taken away those things which are in fauour of Princes of the Laitie, to see if at length there might be established the opinion de illimita [...]a Potestate Pontificis in t [...]mporalibus. [...] he as [...]e that compar [...]s together the Bookes printed in the year [...] 30. in 50. and those at this day, as well of the Councels as others, [...]uidently [...] the vintage, that [...] it is, that we post vindemia [...], haue found some few clusters for the defence of our gracious Prince. This is a meanes if it goe on further, to make all writings to loose their credit, and to ruine the Church of God. Be it spoken by the occasion that the Lord Cardinall hath giuen [...]e thereof▪ and for charities [...], and for the desire that these writings be no more touched; which be also said with all humilitie and reuerence.

He erres in the XV. place, for that he saith [...]hat in the ancient Breuiaries there was not the word animas. And I haue seene Breuiaries written with [...] abou [...] 200. yeares agoe, and printed aboue an hundred; in them is the word animas; and if it were not▪ yet ought it to be put in, to take away the occasions of discord [...].

[Page] Thus he there; As for the Prayer corrected, or corrupted rather; if you looke the old Breuiaries, yea euen that set forth by Pi [...]s the Fifth, printed by Plantine, with the Priuiledge of the Pope,Ex Decreto 5▪. Conc [...]l. T [...]d. and his Catholike Maiest [...]e, Anno 77. vpon the nine & twentieth of Iune, yee shall find it to runne thus. Deus qui B. Petro Apostolo [...]uo collatis clauibus r [...]gui coelestis animas ligandi atque solu [...]ndi Ponti [...]icium tradid [...]st [...], concede vt intercessionis eius auxilio peccator [...]m nostrorum nexibus liberemur. Per Dominum▪ Now in the late correction animas, is left out, and wee vnderstand the reason.

In the end of the same booke there is [...]n aduertisement to the Reader, the beginning whereof I will not sticke to set downe verbatim; it is this. Because in this Defence I haue often said, that Authors are made to recant, and that out of their bookes many things are taken away sincerely said, in fauour of the power of Temporall Princes, to stablish by these meanes the opinion, De supremâ authoritate Papae in temporalibus; I haue thought good to aduise the R [...]ader, that the quotations by mee brought, are taken, ad verbum, out of those bookes which are incorrupt, and containe the opinion of the Authors sincerely. And that the more ancient the Copies bee, and further from these our times, so much [...]he better they bee. And in particular I desire that hee bee aduertised, that the Cap. Nouit de iudicijs, printed in Rome the yeere 1575. by Ioseph de Angelis, with licence of Superiours, it the text which was followed by the Author of the eight Positions, and by mee; which containes sincerely the opinion of Na [...]arrus, and of the Parisians. Which in the bookes printed since, is changed in such manner as it is no more the same, but is become the contrary, to wit, that of [...], &c.

Tell mee, good Master Wad [...]sworth, in the [...]ight of God, what is fraud, if this be not. And thus not onely the Authors of this age any way inclining to reformation, as Erasmus, Rhe [...]anus, Cassander, F [...]rus; but, Vines, Faber, [Page]Caietane, Pol. Virgil, Guicciardine, Petrarch, Dante, yea Authors of six or seuen hundred yeeres old, are set to Schoole to learne the Romane language, and agree with the Trent [...]aith. For it is not the authoritie and Monarchy of the Pope alone that is sought, though that bee Summa summarum, whereunto all comes at last, but no voyce must be heard discenting from that which he teaches. Therefore it is, that Bertramus Presbyter is appointed by your Spanish Index printed at Madrid, to bee wholly abolished. The former had catechized him to say in stead of visibiliter, inuisibiliter, with many other pretie explications, as where he saith, the Elements in the Lords Supper, Secundum creaturarum substantiam, quod prius fuerant ante consecrationem, hoc & post consistunt, the explication is, secundum externas species Sacramenti. But the surest way was to take him cleane away: and so indeed in the Bibliotheca Patrum hee is, and that purp [...]sely, as Marguerinus de la Bigne confesseth in his Preface.

The Ancient Fathers are perhaps free. For the Councell of Trent appointed, that in the writings of the ancient Catholikes nothing should bee changed, sa [...]e where by the fraud of heretikes a manifest error is crept in. But who shall bee the Iudge of that? The Inquisitors and Censors themselues. For my part, I cannot say that I haue spent many houres in the triall of this point, nor haue I had ancient Copies thereto requisite. But I will intreat you to consider with mee one example, or rather two or three in one Father, and in the matter that I named, whereby you may ghesse at the rest. In Saint Cyprians Workes imprinted at Rome, by P. Manutius, sent for to Venice by Pius the Fourth, to set forth the Fathers, as himselfe saith, most perfectly clensed from all spots, the Epistle of Firmilianus Bishop of Caesarea, beginning, Accepimus per Rogatianum, is wholly left out; and Pamelius thinkes purposely, and addes, perhaps it had beene more wisdome it had beene neuer set out at all. Saint Cyprian was not of that minde, who translated it into Latin, [Page]as the stile it selfe witnesses, and Pamelius also is enforced to confesse. The matter is, it is to quicke and vehement against Stephanus Bishop of Rome. Hee saith hee is moued with iust indignation, at the manifest folly of Stephanus, that boasting so much of the place of his Bishopricke, and that hee hath the succession of Peter, vpon whom the foundations of the Church were set, brings in many other Rockes, &c. Hee saith hee hath stirred vp contentions and discords throughout the Churches of the whole world. Bids him not deceiue himselfe, he hath made himselfe a Schismaticke, by separating himselfe from the Communion of the Ecclesiastical vnity, for while he thinks he can separate all from his communion, he hath separated himselfe onely from all. He taxes him for calling Saint Cyprian a false Christ, a false Apostle, and a deceitfull workeman, which being priuy to himselfe that these were his owne due, preuentingly hee obiected to another! No maruell if this geare could not passe the Presse at Rome.

In S. Cyprians Epistle, De Vnitate Ecclesiae, these words, & Primatus Petro datur, &c. & after, Vnam Cathedram constituit: and againe, Et Cathedra vna, are foisted into the text in that Romane edition. In that of Pamelius also besides these, another clause is added, forsooth, out of Gratian, and a Copie of the Cambron Abby [Qui Cathedram Petri super quam fundata est Ecclesia deserit.] These patches being all left out, the sense is neuerthelesse complete and perfect: and for the last, which speaks most for the Popes Chaire, the Superuisors themselues of the Canon Law, by the commandement of Gregory the thirteenth, acknowledge, that in eight Copies of Cyprian entire, in the Vaticane Librarie this sentence is not found: but besides these there is one wherein his opuscula alone are contained, and another at Saint Sauiours in Bologna, in which it is found. But what account they make of it appeares by this, that supplying the whole sentence in another place of Gratian, they leaue it out. Wherein as their conscience is to bee commended, and Manuti [...] his modestie, or theirs who [Page] surueied that edition, that would not follow one Copie against eight; so is Pamelius boldnesse to be corrected, that out of one, and that not fully agreeing with Gratian, neither shames not (as himselfe sayes, veriti non sumus) to force in this reading into the text, against all the rest printed and manuscript, which he vsed aboue twentie in number, as he sets them downe in a Catalogue in the beginning of his edition. It is now little more then two hundred yeeres agoe, that Frier Thomas of Walden wrote against Witcleff. He in the second Booke of his first Tome, the first Article, and second Chapter, cites this verie place of Cyprian, and cites it to fort [...]fie Witclefs assertion of his owne minde. For hauing recited Witclefs words, he concludes them thus; Haec ibi, and then proceeds. Addam [...]t & nos quod Cyprianus dicit omnes Apostolos pares fuisse & pote [...]tate & ho [...]re. Addamus quod Hieronymus dicit, super omnes Apostolos ex aequo fortitudo solidatur Ecclesiae, &c. Yet, neither in that Chapter, nor in that whole discourse doth he once mention these words, now conueied into Cyprian, nor any where else that I can find in all his Work, though hee cite this Tractate often vnder the name of Liber contra haereticos & schismaticos. How fit had it beene to answere the obiection out of Cyprian by Cyprian, if hee had not found that Gratian after his manner had been too bold or negligent in this passage. The same Author in his third Tome De Sacramentalibus, Doct. 10. cites a long place out of this same Treatise beginning at those words. An esse sibi cum Christo videtur qui aduersum Sace [...]dotem Christi facit, &c. Againe, Cap. 81. two places; one immediately before the sentences charged with those former wordes, another after. The one beginning, Loquitur Dominus ad Petrum▪ Ego tibi dico quia tu es Petrus, &c. the other Vnitatem tenere [...]irmiter & vendi [...]are debemus, &c. Certainely vnlesse Waldens [...]s meant by fai [...]t-pleading to betray the cause hee vndertooke, hee would neuer haue omitted so pregnant pass [...]ges as these be, for Peters Primacie, and the [Page] Popes Chaire, had they beene extant in Cyprians worke when hee wrote, But wee cannot doubt of his good affection to the See of Rome, either for his orders sake, o [...] his dedicating that worke to Pope Marti [...]e the Fi [...]th, or his approbation of the two first Tomes, which hee saith, hee caused to bee seene and examined, per sollennes viros, and testifies of to bee commended of all, encouraging him to write the third. It remaines therefore that Cyprian hath receiued this garnishment since Waldens time. And here with this occasion of his silence about those things which are thrust into Cyprian, I will, though besides my purpose▪ vse his testimony about a certaine sentence of the Author of the imperfect worke vpon Matthew, ascribed to Saint Chrysostome, which the Romish faction will needs race out. It is in the eleuenth Homily, about the middle. The words are these: Si enim vasa sanctificata ad priuat [...]s vsus transferre peccatum est & periculum, sicut docet Balthasar qui bibens in calicibus sacris de regn [...] depositus est & de vita. Si ergo haec vasa ad priuatos vsus transferre sic [...] est [in quibus non est verum corpus Christi [...] mysterium [...]orporis eius continetur] quanto magis vasa corporis nostri quae sibi Deus ad habitaculum praeparan [...] non debemus locum dare Diabolo agend [...] in ijs quae vult. In this sentence the wordes that I haue e [...]closed from the rest are inserted saith Bellarm [...]e by some Schol [...]er of Berengarius, De Sacram. for they are not in all Copies.Euch. l. 2. c. 32. No maruell. That is more maruell that they are in any, since the Canonizing of Trans [...]bstantiation. But in Walde [...]s time, and before, the words were th [...]s read, for in his third Tome, Cap. 30. they are thus cited, saue tha [...] by the error of the print ministerium, is put for mysterium, and hee addes there. [...] But, saith Bellarmine, These words [...] not to the matter in hand, for the Author of the [...] spake of the holy vessels of Salomons Temple, which [...];[Page]and in those vessels, neither was the Lords true body, nor yet the mystery thereof. Well, if they be not to the purpose, if they speake of the vessells of Salomons Temple, let them stand in the Text still. What need yee purge them out of the newer editions at Antwerpe, and Paris. Belike Father Iohn Matthews saw further into this matter then Bellarmine, for hee casts out this sentence with the dregs of the Arians, although there bee no Arianisme in it that I can perceiue. The truth is, the Author speakes of the Vessels vsed in the Lords Supper in his owne time. For those wordes, sicut docet Balthasar, &c. are brought in by the way, for a confirmation from a like example, the sense hanging in the meane while, which is resumed againe when hee goes on, Si ergo haec vasa, as any indifferent Reader may perceiue. Yea, take away these words, & the sinewes of the sentence are cut, for the force of the argument lies in the comparison of the prophaning of the holy vessels, and of our bodies; That is a sin, yet Christs body is not contained in them, but the mystery therof: but God himselfe dwels in these.

These examples, to omit some other, doe make mee thinke, that howsoeuer the corrupting of the texts of the Fathers, is not perhaps so vsuall, as of other Writers, and good reason why, they know that many looke narrowly to their [...]ingers, neither is there any place almost, that is of speciall pith, that hath not beene obserued and vrged in the handling of the controuersies of this age, by some one or other; yet where there is any colour of differing Copies, or any aduantage to bee taken that way, it is not slipped. And who knowes not, that sometimes the change of a Letter, yea, of a Point or Accent; makes the whole sentence of another meaning?De Verbis Domini, Serm. 15. c. 11. As for example [...] that of Saint Augustine, Qui fecit te sine te, non iustificat te sine te. Read it interrogatiuely, and it is as strong for [...] and the [...], as if it be read assertiuely, for Cathar [...] and the [...].

[Page] And in very deede when I consider the eagernesse of these men, to win their purposes, and their fearfull boldnesse with the holy Word of God, I know not how a man should looke for conscience or respect at their hands in the writings of men. For to omit that the Trent-Fathers haue canonized the Vulgar Latin Edition, which so many times departeth from the originall inspired by the holy Ghost, adding, detracting, changing, often to a diuerse, sometimes to a contrarie sense. To let passe also how Sixtus V. and Clemens VIII. doe tyrannize oue [...] and delude the Faith of their followers, about that Edition, binding them vnto two diuerse Copies, and sometimes flat contradictorie; and so, as the forme of each must bee inuiolably obserued, without the least particle of the Text added, changed, or detracted. The former, derogating all Faith and authoritie from whatsoeuer Bibles hand [...]written, or printed, of the Vulgar edition, which did not agree with that which hee set forth ad verbum & ad literam. The latter, telling, that when the same Pope endeuoured to set it out, hee perceiued not a few things to haue crept into the holy Bible, through the fault of the Presse, and that it needed a second care, whereupon he decreed to bring the whole worke againe to the Anuile, had he not beene preuented by death; so derogating all Faith from the [...]ormer. Whereas the truth is Sixt [...] did not onely endeuour to set out his Bible, but prefixed his Bull before it ad perpetuam rei memoriam, and sent one of the Copies to the State of Venice (as I heard at my being there) howsoeuer since it was cunningly recouered againe, set it to sale publikely, and saith in his Bull, that he corrected the faults of the Presse with his owne hand, and (which most of all conuinceth Pope Clements Preface of falshood) the difference of these Editions is not in fault of the prints, but in that the one followes the old erroneous reading, the latter the reading of other Manuscripts ac [...]ording with the Hebrew, Chaldee, Greeke, or the Latin edition of the Catholike Kings Bible, obserued by the industrie of the Diuines of Lo [...]aine. [Page] But to forbeare to vrge this contradiction in the very foundation of beliefe, which some man peraduenture would presse so farre, as to inferre, that the Romanists haue no faith (for hee that beleeues contradictories beleeues nothing.) What shall we say of that impietie, to corrupt the originall Text according to the vulgar Latin? See an example hereof in the first promise of the Gospell, Gen. 3. where the Serpent is threatned, that the seede of the Woman shall crush his head. The vulgar Edition leauing here the Hebrew, the Seuentie, and Saint Hierome himselfe, as appeares by his questions vpon Genesis, tran [...]ates Ipsa. Shee shall bruise thy head. So it stands now in the authenticall Scripture of the Church of Rome, and herein Sixtus and Clemens are of accord. The Diuines of Louaine obserue, that two Manuscript Copies haue Ipse. That the Hebr [...]w, Chaldie, and Greeke, haue it so likewise. Why then did not either Sixtus or Clemens, or they themselues hauing Copies for it, correct it, and make it so in the authenticall Text? I will tell you. By colour of this corruption, the Deuill enuying Christs glorie, like an obstinate enemie rather yeelding himselfe to any then his true Conqueror, hath giuen this honour to the Virgin Mary. To her it is attributed in that worke which I thinke to bee the most vngodly and blasphemous that euer saw the Sunne: The Ladies Psalter, wherein that which is spoken of God by the Spirit of God is writhed to her. In the 51. Psalme, Quid gloriaris in malitia, ô maligne Serpens, &c. Why boastest thou in malice, ô thou malignant Serpent and infernall Dragon, Submit thy head to the Woman, by whose valour thou shalt be drowned in the deepe. Crush him, ô Lady, with the foot of thy valour, arise and scatter his malice, &c. And in the 52. speaking to the same Serpent. Noli extolli, &c. Bee not lifted vp for the fall of the Woman, for a Woman shall crush thy head, &c. So in that Anthem: Haec est mulier virtutis quae contri [...]it caput Serpentis. Yea which I write with griefe and shame, to her doth good [Page] Bernard apply it, Hom. 2. super Missus est, and which is more strange, expounds it, not of her bearing our Sauiour, but, Ipsa proculdubio, &c. Shee doubtlesse crushed that poisonfull head, which brought to nought all manner of suggestion of that wicked one, both of temptation of the flesh and of pride of minde. To her doth the learned and deuout Chancelor of Paris apply it.Serm. de Natiui [...]ate Mar. Virginis. Has pestes vniuersas dicimus membra Serpentis antiqui, cuiu [...] caput ipsa virgo contriuit. And what maruell in those times, when the plaine Text of the Scripture ran so in the foeminine gender, of a woman, and few or none had any skill of the Greeke or Hebrew? Who should that SHEE be, but shee that is blessed among women? Now although that thankes be to God, it is knowne that this is a corrupt place, out of the Fountains, yea out of the Riuers also the testimonies of the Fathers, referring this to Christ, as Irenaaus, Iustine, Cyprian, Clemens Alexandrinus, Hierome, yea Pope Leo himselfe, yet because no error of the Church of Rome may bee acknowledged, how palpable soeuer; they haue cast how to shadow this corruption, and set some colour vpon it, that howsoeuer this reading cannot bee true, yet it may bee made like to truth. Loe in the Interlinear Bible set forth by the authoritie of King Philip the father of his Majestie that now reignes with you, the Hebrew Text is reformed according to the Latine,See D. [...] Conf. with Hart. c. 6. [...] IPSA. There was some opportunitie hereunto, by reason that the Letters of the Text without pricks would beare both readings. For [...] may be read [...] hu, or [...] hiu. And this selfe-same word for the Letters the base of reading, is so pointed in this Chapter verse 19. and applied to Eue Shee is the mother of all liuing. And so elsewhere, as Gen. 28. 1. and 21. Hereunto perhaps was added, that the pricks are a late inuention of the Rabbines, as many thinke, and no part of the Hebrew Text. And that not onely Leo Castro, and such as accuse the present Hebrew Copies as fal [...]ified, but those that defend them also, doe many of them confesse. Hereupon it was resolued, as it seemes, to point [Page] this place [...]. For that it was not by mistaking but purposely done▪ Franciscu [...] Lucas in his Annotations vpon the place doth assure vs; and saith it was Guido Fabricius his deede. And indeede other things there bee in that worke, which sauour not of the learning and integritie of Arias Montanus, as for example, the Etymologie of Missa from the word [...]. But as Boldnesse is not alwayes as prouident, as Ignorance or Malice is bold, these Correctors marked not, that the gender of the Verbe, and the affixe of the Noune following, are both Masculine. So although the Orthographie would bee framed to consent, yet the Syntaxe doth crie out against this Sacriledge. And yet our Rhemists, as I am informed, in their lately set forth Bible, with a long note vpon this place, defend the applying of this Text to the blessed Virgin, and the old reading Ipsa. What should a man say? Necessitie makes men desperate, and as the Apostle saith, [...]. 3. 13. Euill men and deceiuers shall waxe worse and worse, deceiuing and being deceiued.

These be fraudes indeed, in the strictest sense, wilfully corrupting the Texts of good Authors, wilfully maintayning them so corrupted; not abstayning from the holy Scriptures themselues. For as to that other kinde, deprauing the sense, retayning the wordes; it were endlesse to cite examples. Bellarmine alone, as I beleeue, passeth any two Protestants that euer set pen to paper, perhaps all of them put together.

CHAP. VII.
Of the Armies of euident witnesses for the Romanists.

WHere you adde that you found the Catholikes had farre greater and better Armies of euident witnesses then the Protestants, it might perhaps seeme so to you, as your minde was prepared, when you had met with [Page] such cunning muster-Masters as the Romanists are. Who sometimes bring into the fi [...]ld to make their number seeme more, after the old stratagem of warre, a sort of Pages and Lackeis, vnworthy to hold any ranke in the host of God, vnder the names of the Fathers. Sometimes to confirme their part, giue out a voice confidently, that all the [...]orces which they see aloofe in the field are on their side, whereas when it comes to the battell they shall finde that they wil turne their armes against them. Somtimes they change the quarrell it selfe; in which case how easie is it to bring Armies, as you say, into the field, to fight against No-bodie and euident witnesses, to proue that which no man denies? For the purpose, that the Bishops of Rome hath had a primacie of honour, and authoritie; when as the question is about a Monarchie, and infallible Iudgement, an vncontrolable Iurisdiction. Herein if you please, see how Bellarmine alleages the Fathers, Greeke and Latine, in the 15. and 16. Chapters of his first Booke, de Summo Pontifice. So for proofe of the veritie of Christs Bodie and Bloud in the Lords Supper, hee spends a whole Booke onely in citing the testimonies of the Fathers. To what purpose? When the question is not of the truth of the Presence, bu [...] of the manner; whether it be to the Teeth and Belly, or Soule and Faith of the Receiuer. Sometimes they will beare downe the vnexpert Souldier their Reader, that hee sees the Fathers fight for them; as Pighius and Bellarmine come in often with their Vides in the end and application of a testimonie. Whereby it comes to passe that the Scholler if he be of a plyable disposition, or loath to bee counted dimme-sighted, yeelds himselfe to his Teacher, and sees in the Fathers that which they neuer dreamed of. But surely, Sir, had you giuen that honour to the holy Scriptures, which of the Iewes was giuen to them, and our Lord Iesus Christ allowes it in them; and then employed as much trauell in the searching and looking into them, as you professe to haue done in the perusing the Councels and Fathers, [Page] perhaps God had opened your eyes, as those of El [...]sha his seruant, to haue seene, that there are more on our side then against vs, horses indeede and charets of fire, able to put to flight and scatter neuer so great armies of humane authorities and opinions. But this place of the Scriptures hath no place amongst all your motiues.

As touching that which you say of the Centurists often consuring and reiecting the plaine testimonies of the Ancients. It is true, that in the title De Doctrina, they note a part, the singular and incommodious opinions the stubble and errors of the Doctors. Wherein to tell you my fancie, if they commit any fault, it is, that they are to rigid and strict, referring into this Catalogue, euery improper and excessiue speech, which being seuered from the rest of the discourse, may often seeme absurd: as it may also seeme strange that our Sauiour should teach a man to hate his Father and Mother, or pull out his eyes, or giue him his cloake that hath bereaued him of his coate. Whereas these and the like haue in the place where they stand, admirable force and grace, being taken with an equall and commodious interpretation. But it is are cleare as the noone day, that sundry such errors and singular opinions there be in the Fathers, as cannot be iustified. They speake not alwaies to your own mindes, not onely prima facie, and in sound of words, but being neuer so well examined and salued. Witnesse Sixtus Senensis in the fift and sixt Bookes of his Bibliotheca. Witnesse Pamelius, Medina (though blamed for confessing so much by Bellarmine) yea witnesse Bellarmine himselfe. Wherefore if the bare authoritie of the Fathers must binde vs, vndergoe the same law yee giue, if as your Belgick Index confesseth, you beare in them with many errors, extenuate them, excuse them, by deuising some shift, often denie them, and giue them a c [...]modious sense, when they are opposed in disputations, giue the libertie ye take. Or if (as we thinke) these be base courses and vnbeseeming the ingenuitie of true Christian mindes, acknowledge this honour as proper to the Scriptures, [Page] to be without controuersie receiued, examine by the true touchstone of diuine authoritie all humaine writings, how holy soeuer their Authors haue beene. Try all things, as the Apostle commands, hold fast that which is good.

Your instance in Danaeus his Commentaries, super D. Aug. Euchiridion ad Laurentium, was not all the best chosen. For neither doth Saint Augustine in that booke treating professedly of Purgatory, auouch it plainely, or yet obscurely. Nor doth Danaeus reiect his opinion with those words, Hic est nae [...]us Augustini, or the like. The heads of Saint Augustines discourse are these. I. That whereas some thought that such as are baptized and holde the Faith of Christ, though they liue and die neuer so wickedly, shall be saued, and punished with a long but not eternall fire, he thinkes them to be deceiued, out of a certaine humane pit [...]; for this opinion is flatly contrarie to other Sc [...]rptures. II. He interprets the place of Saint Paul, touching the trying of euery mans worke by fire, of the fire of tribulation, through which as well he that builds gold and siluer, that is, mindes the things of God, as he that builds hay and stubble, that is, too much mindes the things of this life must passe. III. He saith that it is not incredible, that some such thing is done after this life also; and whether it be so or not, may be enquired of. IIII. But whether it be found or no, that some faithfull people, according as they haue more or lesse, loued these perishing things, are later or sooner saued: yet not such as of whom it is said, that they shall not possesse the Kingdome of God, vnlesse repenting as they ought, they obtaine forgiuenesse; as for the purpose, be fruitfull in almes; which yet will not serue to purchase a licence to commit sinne. V. That the daily and lighter sinnes, without which we are neuer in this life, are blotted out by the Lords Prayer. And so the greater also, if a man leaue them, and forgiue others his enemies; which is a worthy kinde of almes: but the best of all is a sinners amending of his life. Loe how plainly Saint Augustine auo [...]cheth Purgatorie, Of which he doubts whether any such thing can be found[Page]or no. Expounds that Scripture that seemes most strong for it, all otherwise, and so as it cannot agree thereunto. If it be found, is sure it will not serue for greater sinnes. And for lesser defects, yea the greatest shewes, another a surer remedy, which intruth makes Purgatory superfluous. In this doctrine, Danaeus is so farre from controuling Saint Augustine, that he applauds him; and saith, that declaring his owne opinion of Purgatorie, he pronounceth plainely, that the whole defining of this matter is vncertaine, doubtfull, and rash; which since that Augustine wrote being now an old man, certainely it cannot be doubted but that hee did altogether reiect Purgatorie: yea and he shewes this fire it selfe to be vnprofitable. Thus Danaeus there. But the censure that was in your minde, I beleeue is that vpon another passage of Saint Augustine in the same Booke, where hee treates, whether the soules of the dead are eased by the pietie of their friends that are liuing. And thus he determines it. That when the Sacrifices either of the Altar, or of whatsoeuer almes are offered for all such as are deceased after Baptisme, for such as are very good folke, they are thankesgiuings; for such as are not very euill, they are propitiations: for those that are very euill, though they be no helpes to the dead, yet they are consolations, such as they be to the liuing. And to such as they are profitable vnto, it is either that they may haue full remission, or that their very damnation may be more tollerable. Vpon this Chapter thus saith Dan [...]us. Hoc totum caput continet [...] Augustini, and after hee addes, Itaque hic foenum & stipulam aedificat vir pius & magnus. But you, yee say, had rather follow Saint Augustines opinion then his censure. Perhaps as one saith, rather erre with Plato, then hold the truth with others. If that be your resolution, what should we vse any more words? Beleeue then if you please, that the commemoration of Christs sacrifice in the Lords Supper, or the oblations of the faithfull, are to be made for all that decease after Baptisme, in the attempting of whatsoeuer sinne they die, yea suppose in finall impenitence of any deadly crime. That such as be [Page] damned may thereby haue their damnation made more tollerable. Beleeue that without any improprietie of speech, the same forme of words may be a thanksgiuing for one, and an appeasing of Gods wrath for another. Beleeue also (if you can beleeue what you will) that Saint Tecla deliuered the soule of Falconilla out of hell, and Saint Gregorie the soule of Traian, and that as may seeme saying Masse for him, sith he was forbidden thence forth to offer any hoste for any wicked man. Bele [...]e that Macarius continually praying for the dead, and very desirous to know whether his prayers did them any good, had answere by miracle from the scull of a dead man an Idolater, that by chance was tumbled in the way. O Macarius when tho [...] offerest prayer's for the dead, we feele some ease for the time. Beleeue that on Easter euen all the damned spirits in hell keep holy day, and are free from their torments. Saint Augustine, such is his modestie, will giue you leaue to beleeue [...], as well as Purgatorie, if you please, as hee is not vnwilling to giue, as large scope to other mens opinions as may be, so they reuerse not the plaine and certaine grounds of holy Scripture. In all these you may if you please follow authors also; as Saint Damasce [...], Paladius, Prudentius, Sigebert, and others. But giue the same libertie to others that yee take. Compell no man to follow your opinion, if he had rather follow Danaeus reasons. For my selfe, I would sooner with Saint Augustine himselfe, whose words touching Saint Cyprian, Danaeus here borrowed, confesse this to be, [...] coopertum [...], then be bound to iustif [...]e his conceit touching the commemoration of the dead in the Lords Supper. And as hee saith of Saint Cyprian, so would I adde, Ego h [...]ius libri authoritate non teneor, [...] Augustini non vt Canonicas habeo, sed eas ex Canonic [...]s considero; & quod in ijs [...] scriptur [...] cum [...] quod non congruit cum pace eius resp [...]. Which words I doe the rather set downe, that they may be Luthers iustification also [Page]against F. Parsons,Relation [...] who thinkes he hath laid sore to his charge when hee cites very solemnely his Epistle ad Equitem Germ. Anno Domini 1521. where he saith, he was tyed by the authority of no Father, though neuer so holy, if hee were not approued by the iudgement of holy Scripture. Surely this is not to denie and contemne, as he cals it, or as you to controll the Fathers, to account them subiect to humane infirmities, which themselues acknowledge. But the contrary is to boast against the truth, to seeke to fore iudge it with their mistakings, which needes not so much as require their testimonies.

I will forbeare to multiply words about that, whether the testimonies of Antiquitie which fauour the Protestants be many or few: whether they doe indeede so, or onely seeme, prima facie; whether they be wrested or to the purpose; whether all this may not by iust or reason be affirmed of the passages cited by [...] Romanists out of Antiquitie, setting aside matters of ceremony, and gouernment (which your selfe confesse by and by may be diuers, without empeaching vnitie in Faith) and opinions, euer to be subiected to the triall of Scriptures, by their owne free consent and desire. Iudge by an instance or two, that this matter may not be a meere skirmish of generalities. Tertullian in his latter times, whether as Saint Hierome writes through the enuie and reproach of the Roman Clergie, or out of the too much admiring chastitie and fasting, became a Montanist, and wrote a Booke de Pudicitia, blaming the reconciling of Adulterers and Fornicators. In the very entrance almost thereof, he hath these words. Audio etiam edictum esse propositum, & quidem peremptorium. Pontifex scil. Maximus Episcopus Episcoporum dicit. Ego & maechis & fornicationis delict a paenitentiâ functis dimitto. Pamelius in his noate vpon this place, writes thus, Bene habet: & annotatu dignum quod etiamiam in haeresi constitutus, & aduersus Ecclesia [...] scribens, Pontifice [...] Romanum Episcopum Episcoporum nuncupet, & infra Cap. 13. bonum Pastorem, & benedictum Papum[Page]& Cap. 21. Apostolicum. Thus Pamelius; and presently la [...]ches forth into the Priuiledges of the See of Rome, and brings a number of testimonies for that forgery of Constantines donation. The like note hee hath in the life of Tertullian, where hee makes the Pope that set forth the former Edict to haue beene Zephyrinus; quem, saith hee, Pontificem Maximum etiam iam haereticus Episcopum Episcoporum appellat. Baronius also makes no small account of this place, and saith, The title of the Pope is here to bee noted. And indeed, prima facie (as you say) they haue reason. But hee that shall well examine the whole web of Tertullians discourse, shall finde that hee speakes by a most bitter and scornefull Ironie, as Elias doth of Baal, when hee saith, hee is a God. The word scilicet might haue taught them thus much. Yea, the title Pontifex Maximus, which in those dayes, and almost two ages after, was a Pagan terme, neuer attibuted to a Christian Bishop, first laid downe by Gratian the Emperour, as Baronius also notes, in the yeere of our Lord, 383. because it [...]auoured of Heathenish superstition, though it had beene, as a title of Royalty vsed by the former Christian Emperours, till that time. This title, I say, might haue made them perceiue Tertullians meaning; vnlesse the immoderate desire of exalting the Papacie did so blind their eyes, that seeing, they saw, and yet perceiued not. In the same character, though with more mildnesse and moderation, is the same title for the other part of it, vsed by Saint Cyprian, in his Vote in the Councell of Carthage. Neque. n. quisquam nostrum se esse Episcopum Episcoporum constituit aut tyrannico terrore ad obsequendi necessitatem Collegas suos adigit. Bellarmine saith, hee speakes here of those Bishops that were in the Councell of Carthage; and that the Bishop of Rome is not included in that sentence, who is indeed Bishop of Bishops. What! and doth hee tyranniously inforce his Colleagues to obedience also. For it is plaine that Cyprian ioynes these together, [Page] the one as the presumptuous title, the other as the iniurious act answering thereto, which hee calls plaine tyranny. And as plaine it is out of Firmilianus Epistle, which I vouched before, that Stephanus Bishop of Rome heard ill for his arrogancie and presuming vpon the place of his Bishopricke, Peters Chaire, to seuer himselfe from so many Churches, and breake the bond of peace, now with the Churches of the East in Asia, now of the South in Africke. And hee was in as ill conceit with Cyprian for his breaking good order, and communicating with Basilides and Martialis iustly depriued in Spaine; as Saint Cyprian was with him, when he stiled him, a false Christ, and a false Apostle. But the holy Martyr was of a more patient and calme spirit, then to be moued with such reproaches; nay, hee tooke occasion, as it should seeme, thereby to write of patience. From this mildnesse it was, that hee so closely taxed the presumption of him, that made himselfe Bishop of Bishops, and by terror (which what it was Firmilianus Epistle shewes, threatning Excommunication) would compell his Colleagues to his owne opinion. None of vs saith he, doth thus. As the Apostle, we preach not our selues; we commend not our selues; Wee are not as many, that adulterate the Word of God, &c. Bellarmine takes the first kindly. No maruell, saith hee, for this the Bishop of Romes due. But they goe together, hee must be content to take both, or leaue both. Such another place there is in Saint Augustines Epist. 86. the wordes are, Petr [...] etiam inquit Apostolorum Capu [...], coeli [...], & Ecclesia fundamentum. Where in the Margent, the Diuines of Louaine, the ouerseers of Plantines edition, set this note, Petrus Ecclesia fundamen [...]m. Why might they not? The words yee will say of the text. But these words of the text be not Saint Augustines, whose opinion is well enough knowne, That it is Christ confessed by Peter; that is the foundation of the Church; but they are the words of an vndiscreet railerVrbici cuinsd [...]m. of the Citie of Rome, against whom Saint Augustine in all that Epistle [Page] most vehemently inueighs. This arrogant Author endeauours so to defend the Romane custome of fasting on the Saturday, as hee reproaches all other Churches that vsed otherwise. And that we may see with what Spirit he was led, he brings the same text that is brought, in Pope Siricius, and Innocentius Epistles, against the marriage of Clergie men, Qui in carne sunt Deo placere non possunt, and many other Scrip [...]ures wrested, and farre from the purpose; at last comes the authoritie of Peter, and his tradition very Pope-like alledged, Peter, he saith, the head of the Apostles, porter of heauen, and foundation of the Church, hauing ouercome Simon the Sorc [...]rer, who was a figure of the Deuill, not to be ouercome but by fasting, thus taught the Romanes; whose faith is famous in the whole world. I remit you to Saint Augustines answere to this tradition. This I note, that where your Censors do race out of the Margents of former editions, such notes as do expresse the very opinions of the ancients, and in their owne wordes, here they can allow and authorize such marginall notes, as are directly contrary to their meaning. Yea, which are earnestly oppugned by them; when they seeme to make for the authoritie of the Pope. Good sir, examine well this dealing, and iudge if this bee not wresting the Fathers, and applying them cleane from their purpose.

In fine, you found your selfe, you say, euidently conuinced. Perswaded, I beleeue, rather then conuinced. Else if the force and euidence of the Arguments, and not the pliablenesse of your minde were the cause of your yeelding, mee thinkes they should worke like effect in others, no lesse seriously seeking for truth, and setting all worldly respects aside, earnestly minding their owne saluation then your selfe. Which I well know they do not, neither those which hitherto haue beene examined, nor those which yet remaine to be considered in the rereward.

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CHAP. VIII.
Of the Inuisibilitie of the Church, said to bee an euasion of Protestants.

THe first whereof is, the dislike of the Protestants euasion, as you call it, by the inuisibilitie of their Church. Giue mee leaue here to tell you plainly, yee seeme to mee not to vnderstand the Protestants doctrine in this point. Else yee would haue spared all that, The Catholike Church must euer be visible, as a Citie set on a hill, otherwise how should shee teach her children, conuert Pagans, dispence Sacraments? All this is yeelded with both hands. The Congregations of which the Catholike Church doth consist are visible. But the promise made to this Church, of victory against the gates of hell, the titles, of the house of God, the base and piller of Truth (an allusion, as I take it, to the bases and pillers that held vp the veile or curtaines in the Tabernacle) the body of Christ, his Doue, his vndefiled, are not verified of this Church in the whole visible bulke of it, but in those that are called according to Gods purpose, giuen to Christ, and kept by him to bee raised vp to life at the last day. This doctrine is Saint Augustines in many place [...], which it would bee too tedious to set downe at large. In his third booke, De doctrina Christiana, among the rules of Tychonius, there is one which hee corrects a little for the tearmes, De Domini corpore bipertito; which he saith, ought not to haue beene called so, for in truth that is not the Lords body, which shal not be with him for euer, but he should haue said of the Lords true body and mixt, or true and fained, or some such thing. Because not onely for euer, but euen now, hypocrites are not to be said to be with him, though they seeme to be in his Church. Consider those resemblances taken out of the holy Scripture, wherein that godly Father is frequent, of chaffe and wheat in the Lords floore, of good and bad fishes in the net, of spots and light in the Moone. Of the Church carnall and spirituall,[Page]of the wicked multitudes of the Church, yet not to be accounted in the Church. Of the lilly and the thornes; those that are marked which mourne for the sinnes of Gods people, and the rest which perish, which yet beare his Sacraments. Consider the last Chapter of the booke, De Vnitate Ecclesiae, and that large Treatise which he hath of that matter, Epist. 48. The place is long, which deserues to bee read, for the obiection of the Vniuersality of Arianisme (like to that of Papisme in these last ages) which Saint Augustine answeres in the fifth booke, De Baptismo contra Donatistas cap. 27. That number of the iust, who are called according to Gods purpose, of whom it is said, The Lord knoweth who are his, is the inclosed garden, the sealed fountaine, the well of liuing waters, the orchard with Apples, &c. The like hee hath. l. 5. c. 3. & 23. he concludes, that because such are built vpon the Rocke, as heare the Word of God and doe it, and the rest vpon the sand: now the Church is built vpon the Rocke, all therefore that heare the Word of God and doe it not, are out of question without the Church. In the seuenth booke, cap. 51. Quibus omnibus consideratis [...]—Read and marke the whole Chapter. Out of these and many more like places, which I forbeare to mention, it appeares, that albeit the true Catholike Church is such as cannot bee hid, yet considering that it consists of two sorts of people, the one, which is the greater part, who doe not indeed properly belong to it: the other, the fewer, truely and properly so called, to whom all the glorious things spoken of the Church doe agree. The face therefore of the mixt Church may be ouer-run with scandals,De Vnitate Eccl. c. 24. Euarrat. in Psal. 103. com. 1. as in all times almost. The greatest number may sometime bee Idolaters, as in the Kingdome of Israel vnder Achab. The principallest in authoritie may bee false teachers, as the Priests and Prophets in Ieremies time: the sonnes of pestilence may sit in Moses Chaire, as they did in Christs time. Yet still the Church is the ground and piller of Truth in the Elect: Ipsa est praedestinata columna & firmamentum veritatis. The Sheepe heare not Seducers, Iohn 10. 8. [Page] to wit, finally, and in any damnable point. Thus was it before Christ, thus since, thus in the Church of England, before, yea, and since it was reformed. Thus in that of Rome it selfe at this day. There is a distinction of Thomas, of those that be in the Church, which rightly [...] interpreted agrees fully herewith.2. 2. q. 2. ar. 9. There are some, De Ecclesia numero tantum. Some, numero & merito. The former are such as haue onely fidem informem, the latter formatam. Now though the persons of such, as be in the Church be visible, yet the Faith and Charitie of men wee see not, and to argue from the priuiledges of the Church, numero & merito, to the Church, numero tantum, is a perpetuall, but a palpable para [...]ogisme of the Romish faction: which is grosser, yet when they argue to the Church representatiue; and grossest of all when one man is made the Church, and he (as themselues grant may fall out) a Deuill incarnate.

CHAP. IX.
Of lacke of Vniformitie in matters of Faith, in all ages and places.

ANd in this selfe same Paralogisme you were beguiled with, in the next point of Vniformitie and concord in matters of Faith. The true Church, yee say, [...]uer holds such Vniformitie. It is vtterly false in the Visible and mixt Church, both before Christ and since. It is false in the Church of Rome it selfe; whose new-coyned faith, patched to the Creed, by Pius the Fourth, came in peece-meale out of priuate opinions and corrupt vsages, nor euer was in any age vniformely holden, or taught as matter of Faith, euen in it, as it is at this day. So by your owne discourse it should be no true Church. And taking matters of faith so largely as it seemes you doe, in opposition to such things as bee cer [...]m [...]nies or of gouernment; it is vntrue also of the [Page] Church of the Elect, or properly so called. For though the Faith in the principles thereof bee euer the same, yet many conclusions of Faith haue sometimes lien vnsearched out, and like some parts of the world vnknowne, till by the industrie of Gods seruants, occasioned also by the importunitie and opposition of Heretikes, they were discouered. Sundrie common errours also there haue beene, which in succeeding ages haue beene cleered and reformed: as, the [...]hiliastes. That Angels haue bodies: That children after they be baptized are to be communicated: That Heretikes are to be rebaptized.

To the Assumption First, the Protestants challenge not to themselues any Church as their owne; which I must aduertise you of here, because formerly also you doe vse this phrase. The Church is Christs, both the visible and inuisible. Next, taking matters of Faith for foundations or articles of Faith necessarie to saluation, the Church of Christ hath in all ages had vniforme concord with the Protestants at this day in such matters, as appeareth by the common rule of Faith the Creede; and so hath also the Church vnder the Popes tyrannie. As to the Trent-additions they are forraine to the Faith, as neither principles nor conclusions thereof: neither can your selues shew vniforme consent and concord in them (and namely, in the 11. of them) in any one age, especially as matters of saluation, as now they are canonized. How much lesse can yee shew it in all other conclusions of Faith; whereabout there haue beene among you, as are now among vs, and euer will bee differences of opinions, without any prejudice for all that vnto the vnitie of the Faith of the Church, and title to the name of it. As for Wicliffe, Hus, and the rest, if they haue any of them borne record to the Truth, and resisted any innouation of corrupt Teachers in their times, euen to bloud, they are iustly to be termed Martyrs, yea albeit they saw not all corruptions, but in some were themselues carried away with the streame of error. Else, if because they erred in [Page] some things, they bee no Martyrs, or because wee dissent from them in some things, we are not of the same Church, both you and we must quit all claime to Saint Cyprian, Iustine Martyr, and many more whom wee count our Ancients, and Predecessors, and bereaue them also of the honour of Martyrdome, which so long they haue enjoyed: You see, I hope, by this time the weaknesse of your Argument.

CHAP. X.
Of the originall of reformation in Luther, Caluin; Scotland, England, &c.

IN your next Motiue taken from the originall of Reformation, before I come to answere your Argument shortly coucht in forme, I must endeuour to reforme your iudgement in sundrie points of storie, wherein partly you are misse-led and abused by Parsons and others of that spirit, partly you haue mistaken some particulars, and out of a false imagination framed a like discourse. First for Luther, it was not his ran [...]our against the Dominicans that stirred him vp against the Pope, but the shamefull merchandize of Indulgences, set to sale in Germanie, to the aduantage of Magdalen, sister to Pope Leo X. Beleeue herein if not Sleidan yet G [...]cciardine l. 13. And of all that mention those affaires, it is acknowledged, that at the first, and for a good time he shewed all obedience, and reuerence to the Pope. The new Historie of the Councell of Trent, written by an Italian a subiect and part of the Church of Rome, as should appeare by the Epistle Dedicatorie of the Reuerend and learned Archbishop of Spalato, prefixed to his Maiestie, speaketh thus of the matter. Questo diede occasione, &c. This gaue occasion to Martin, Pag. 6. to passe from Indulgences to the authoritie of the Pope, which being by others proclaymed for the [Page] highest in the Church, by him was made subiect to a Generall Councell lawfully celebrated. Whereof hee said that there was neede in that instant, and vrgent necessitie. And as the heat of disputation continued, by how much the more the Popes power was by others exalted, so much the more was it by him abased, yet so as Martin contayned himselfe within the termes of speaking modestly of the person of Leo, and sauing sometimes his iudgement.Pag. [...]. Againe, After his departure from the presence of Cardinall Cajetan at Augusta, hee saith, hee wrote a letter to the Cardinall, confessing that hee had beene too vehement, and excusing himselfe by the importunitie of the Pardoners, and of those that had written against him, promising to vse more modestie in time to come, to satisfie the Pope, and not to speake any more of Indulgences, prouided that his aduersaries would doe the like. This was Luthers manner at the first, till the Bull of Pope Leo came out, dated the ninth of Nouember, 1518. Wherein he declared the validitie of Indulgences, and that hee as Peters Successor and Christs Vicar had power to grant them for the quicke and dead; that this is the doctrine of the Church of Rome, the Mother and Mistris of all Christians, and ought to bee receiued of all that would bee in the Communion of the Church. From this time forward Luther began to change his stile, Pag. [...]. And (saith he) as before hee had for the most part reserued the person and iudgement of the Pope, so after this Bull he resolued to refuse it, and thereupon put forth an Appeale to the Councell▪ &c. You see then how submissiuely Luther at first carried himself. But extreme tyrannie ouer-comes often a well prepared patience.

Touching his causing rebellion also against the Emperour, yee are misse-informed: his aduice was asked about the association of the Protestants at Smalcald, Sleidan l. [...]. hee said plainly, hee could not see how it could bee lawfull, further then for their owne defence, Ioh. Bodin, in his second Booke de Repub. cap. 5. hath these wordes. We reade also that the Protestant Princes of Almaine before they tooke armes against the Emperour, demanded of Martin Luther if it were lawfull. He [Page]answered freely that it was not lawfull, whatsoeuer tyrannie, or impietie were pretended. He was not beleeued; so the end thereof was miserable, and drew after it the ruine of great and illustrious houses of Germanie. As for the warre in Germanie it began not till after Luthers death, neither was it a rebellion of the Protestants; the truth is they stood for their liues. The Emperour with the helpe of the Popes both mony and armes, intended to roote them out; and although at the first the Emperour did not auow his raysing armes against them to be for Religion, yet the Pope in his Iubilee published vpon this occasion, did not let to declare to the world, that himselfe and Caesar had concluded a league to reduce the H [...]retikes by force of armes to the obedience of the Church, and therefore all should pray for the good successe of the warre.

That Luther euer reuiled the Emperour, I did neuer till now heare or reade, and therefore would desire to know what authors you haue for it. Touching other Princes, namely, King Henrie the eighth, I will not defend him, who condemned himselfe thereof. It is true that he was a man of a bold and high stomacke, and specially fitted thereby through the prouidence of God, to worke vpon the heauie and dull disposition of the Almaines, and in so generall a Lethargie, as the world then was in, hee carried himself (as fell out somtimes) very [...]oisterously. But arrogancie, sch [...]sme, rebellion, were as farre from him, as the intention itself to plant a Church.

As to his Vow-breaking lastly, if that Vow were foolishly made and sinfully kept, it was iustly broken: perhaps also charitably, if hee would by his owne example reforme such, as liued in whoredome, and other vncleannes, and induce them to vse the remedie that God hath appointed for the auoiding of them, to wit, honorable marriage. All this matter touching Luther, vnlesse I be [...]eceiued, you haue taken from [...] Harding; that at least touching his rancour against the Dominicans, for it is his [Page] very phrase. But Master Harding both in this, and many things else discouereth his passion, and lack of true information in this affaire. When with one breath he affirmeth, that, first, it was a Pardon of a Croisade against the Turkes which was preached whereas it was an Indulgence to those that should put their helping hands for the building of Saint Peters Church at Rome, as the Articles of this Pardon printed in English, one of the Copies whereof I haue my selfe, doe shew. Secondly, next hee saith the preaching hereof was granted to Friar Iohn Tetzet. It was Friar Iohn Thecel, or Tecel. Thirdly, hee saith, the Elector of Mentz Albert granted this to T [...]ecel and the Dominicans, whereby Luther was bereft of the gaine hee exspected. The truth is, it was Aremboldus a Bishop liuing at the Court of Rome, whom (hauing before been a Merchant of Genoa) Magdalen the Popes sister put in trust with this merchandize, that appointed the Dominicans to bee the retaylers of these Pardons. The Archbishop of Mentz had nothing to doe with it, otherwise then to allow and suffer it, which occasioned Luther to write to him, as to the Bishop of Brandenburgh, and to Leo himselfe, to represse the impudence of the Pardoners. And Luther saith further in one place, that the Archbishop vndertooke to giue countenance to this businesse, with that condition, that the halfe of the prey should goe to the Pope, and himselfe might haue the other halfe to pay for his Pall. By these errors hea [...]ed together it may appeare what credit it is like Master Hardings tale be wort [...]y of, touching the remnant, that of rancour and malice against the Dominicans, and because hee was bereaued of that sweet morsell, which in hope hee had almost swallowed downe, Luther made this st [...]rre. A hard thing mee thinks it is, for any that liued at that day to set downe what was in Luthers heart, what were his hopes, his desires, rancour, and spleene; much more for Master Harding, most of all for you and mee. When the actions of men haue an appearance of good, Charitie would hope the best, Pietie [Page] would reserue the iudgement of the intention to God.

Let vs come to Caluin, touching whom I maruell not much that you say nothing of all that which Bolseck brings against him, who being by his meanes chased out of Geneua, discouereth as I remember in the verie enetance, that hee was requested by some of his good Masters to write against him. I once saw the book while I liued in Cambridge; it hath no shew of probabilitie that Caluin would goe about to worke a miracle to confirme his doctrine, who teacheth that miracles are no sure and sufficient proofe of doctrine. I maruell rather that euen in reading Doctor Bancroft, Master Hooker, and Sarauia, all opposites to Cal [...]in in the question of Church Discipline, and therefore not all the fittest to testifie of him or his actions, all late Writers, and strangers to the Estate and affaires of Geneua: of whom therefore besides their bare word, sufficient proofe were to bee required of what they say, you not onely receiue whatsoeuer they bring, but more then they bring. You say, they proue what neuer came in their mindes; and what is not onely vtterly vntrue, but euen vnpossible. As that Caluin by his vnquietnes and ambition reuolued the State of Geneua, so vni [...]stly expelling and depriuing the Bishop of Geneua, and other Temporall Lords, of their due obedience, and ancient inheritance. When as the Bishop and Clergie of Geneua, vpon the throwing downe Images there by popular tumult, departed in an anger, seuen yeeres ere euer Caluin se [...] foot within the gates of that Citie. A thing not onely cleere in storie, by the Writers of that time, and since, Sleidan, Bodine, Caluins Epistles, and life, but set down by those whom yee cite. Master Hooker in his Preface speaking of Caluin. Hee fell at length vpon Geneua, which Citie the Bishop and Clergie thereof, had a little before, as some doe affirme, forsaken, being of likelyhood frighted with the peoples sudden attempt for the abolishment of Popish Religion. And a little after. At the comming of Caluin thither, the forme of their Regiment was popular, as it continueth at this day, &c. [Page] Doctor Bancroft. The same yeere that Geneua was assaulted viz. by the Duke of Sauoy, and the Bishop, as he had said before, Page 13.) which was Anno 1536. Master Caluin came thither. If Caluin at his comming found the forme of the gouernment popular, If hee came thither the same yeere that the Bishop made war vpon Geneua to recouer his authoritie, being indeede either affrighted, or hauing forsaken the Towne before, how could Caluin expel him? And in truth Bodine in his second Booke, De Rep. Chapter sixt, affirmeth, That the same yeere Genoa was established in a State Aristocraticall, which was, hee saith, Anno 1528. Geneua was changed from a Monarchy Pontificall, into an Estate Popular, gouerned Aristocratically, although that long before the Towne pretended to bee free, against the Earle, and against the Bishop, &c. What Sarauia hath written touching this point I cannot tell, as not hauing his Booke. But in Beza his answere to him, there is no touch vpon any such thing. He ioynes with his complaint, of the sacrilegious vsurping Ecclesiasticall goods, in answere to his Proême. He dissents in that Sarauia accounts the Seniors of the reformed Churches like to that kinde which Saint Ambrose speakes of, brought in out of wisdome onely, to rule the disorderly. Beza saith, they were not introducti, but reducti, Cap. 12. For the rest in all that answere there is nothing of Caluin, or any such reuoluing of the state as you accuse him of. Which makes mee thinke, that herein your memorie deceiued you. It may be that in your younger time, falling vpon these Authors, by occasion of the question of Discipline, which was then much tossed, ere euer your iudgement were ripened, you formed in your minde a false impression of that which they say of Caluin. You conceited them out of your zeale in the cause, to say more then they do, & thus possible vnawares receiued the seeds of dislike of the doctrine of Caluin, as well as his discipline, which haue since taken root in you. But you shall doe well to remember, the difference you put a little before of these two▪ Christian doctrine is [Page] vniforme and euer the same; gouernment is changeable in many circumstances, according to the exigence of times and persons. And euen the same men that write somewhat eagerly against Master Caluin, yet giue him the pra [...]se of wisdome to see what for that time and state was necessarie. Master Hooker saith of him, That he thinkes him incomparably the wisest man that euer the French Church did enioy since the houre it enioyed him, and of his platforme of discipline, after hee hath laid downe the summe of it. This deuice I see not how the wisest at that time liuing could haue bettered, if wee duely consider what the present state of Geneua did then require. But bee it (and for my part I thinke no lesse) that herein hee was mistaken, to account this to bee the true forme of Church policie, by which all other Churches, and at all times ought to bee gouerned; let his error rest with him, yea, let him answere it vnto his Iudge; but to accuse him of ambition, and sedition, and that falsly, and from thence to set that brand vpon the reformation, whereof he was a worthy instrument (though not the first either there, or any where else) as if it could not bee from God, being so founded; for my part I am afraide you can neuer bee able to answere it, at the same Barre; no, nor euen that of your owne conscience, or of reasonable and equall men.

For the stirres, broiles, seditions, and murthers in Scotland, which you impute to Knox and, and the Geneua Gospellers, they might be occasioned perhaps by the reformers there, as the broiles which our Lo [...]d Iesus Christ saith he came to set in the world by the Gospell. Possible also, that good men out of incōsiderate zeale, should do some things rashly. And like enough the multitude which followed them, as being foreprepared with a iusthatred of the tyrannie of their Prelates, and prouoked by the opposition of the aduerse faction, & emboldned by success [...], ran a great deale further then either wise men could foresee, or tell how to restraine them. Which was applauded and fomented by [Page] some politicke men, who tooke aduantage of those motions to their owne ends. And as it happens in naturall bodies, that all ill humors runne to the part affected, so in ciuill, all discontented people when there is any sorance runne to one or other side; and vnder the shew of common griefes, pursue their owne. Of all which distempers, there is no reason to lay the blame vpon the seekers of reformation, more then vpon the Phisitians, of such accidents as happen to the corrupted bodies which they haue in cure. The particulars of those affaires are as I beleeue alike vnknown to vs both, and since you name none, I can answere to none. For as for the pursuing our King euen before his birth, that which his Maiestie speakes of some Puritans, is ouer-boldly by you referred to Master Knox and the Ministers, that were authors of Reformation in Scotland. Briefely, consider and suruey your owne thoughts, and see if you haue not come by these degrees [...] First, from the inconsiderate courses of some to plant the pretended Discipline in Scotland, to conceiue amisse of the Doctrine also. Then to draw to the encreasing of your ill conceit thereof, what you finde reported of any of the Puritans, a faction no lesse opposed by his Maiesty in Scotland then with vs in England. So when we speake of religion (though that indeede be all one) yee diuide vs into Lutherans, Zwinglians, Caluinists, Protestants, Brownists, Puritans, & Cartwrightists, whensoeuer any disorder of all this number can be accused, then loe are we all one, and the faul [...] of any faction is the slander of all, yea of the Gospell it selfe, and of reformation. Iudge now vprightly if this be indifferent dealing.

From Scotland you come to England. Where because you could finde nothing done by popular tumult, nothing but by the whole state in Parliament, and Clergie in Conuocation, you fall vpon King Henries passions, you will not insist vpon them you say; and yet you doe, as long as vpon any one member of your induction, though it matters little [Page] whether you doe or no, since F. Parsons will needes auerre that hee liued and died of your religion. Here first you mention, his violent diuorcing himselfe from his lawfull wife. Wee will not now debate the question how his Brothers wife could bee his lawfull wife: you must now say so. Whatsoeuer the Scriptures, Councels, almost all Vniuersities of Christendome determined. Yet mee thinkes it should moue you that Pope Clement himselfe had consigned to Cardinal Campegius a Breue formed to sentence for the King, in as ample manner as could be, howsoeuer vpon the successe of the Emperours affaires, in Italie and his own occasions, he sent a special messenger to him to burn it. But what violence was this that you speake of? The matter was orderlie and iudiciouslie by the Arch-bishop of Canterbury with the assistance of the learnedest of the Clergie according to the ancient Canons of the Church, and lawes of the Realme heard and determined. That indeede is more to be maruelled at, what moued him to fall out with the Pope his friend in whose quarrell he had so far engaged himselfe, as to write against Luther, of whom also he was so rudelie handled as you mention before; hauing receiued also for some part of recompence, the title of the Defender of the Faith, hauing beene so chargeablie thankefull to the Pope for it. All these things considered, it must be said, this vnkindnesse and slipperie dealing of Clement with him was from the Lord, that hee might haue an occasion against the Pope, and that it might appeare that it was not humane counsell, but diuine prouidence that brought about the banishment of the Popes tyrannie from among vs. His marriage with the Ladie Anne Bullen, her death, and the rest which you mention of the abling or disabling her issue to inherit the Crown, I see not what it makes to our purpose. The suppression of the Monasteries, was not his sole Act, but of the whole State, with the consent also of the Clergie, and taken out of Cardinall Wolsey his example, yea, founded vpon the Popes authoritie [Page] granted to him, to dissolue the smaller houses of religion, on pretence to defray the charges of his sumptuous buildings at Oxford and l [...]swich, wherein if it pittie you (as I confesse it hath sometimes mee) that such goodly buildings are defaced and ruined, wee must remember what God did to Sh [...]loh, [...] 7. 12. yea to Ierusalem it selfe, and his Temple there. Matth. [...] And that Oracle, Euery tree that beareth not good fruit shall be cut downe, and cast into the fire.

You demand, If this man, King Henry, were a good head of Gods Church? What if I should demand the same touching Alexander the Sixth, Iulius the Second, Leo the Tenth, or twentie more of the Catalogue of Popes, in respect of whom King Henry might bee canonized for a Saint? But there is a storie in Tullies Offices of one Lutatius, that laid a wager that he was (bonus vir) a good man; and would bee iudged by one Fimbria, a man of Consular dignitie. Hee, when he vnderstood the case, said, Hee would neuer iudge that matter, least either hee should diminish the reputation of a man well esteemed of, or set downe that any man was a good man; which hee accounted to consist in an innumerable sort of excellencies and praises. That which hee said of a good man, with much more reason may I s [...]y, of a good King, one of whose highest excellencies is to bee a good head of the Church. And therefore it is a question which I will neuer take vpon mee to answere, whether King Henry were such or no, vnlesse you will before hand interpret this word as fauourably,Lib. 16. as Guicciardine doth tell vs men are wont to doe in the censuring your heads of the Church. For Popes, he saith, now adayes are praised for their goodnesse, when they exceed not the wickednesse of other men. After this description of a good head of the Church, or if yee will that of Cominaeus, which saith hee is to bee counted a good King, whose vertues exceeds his vices. I wil not doubt to say King Henry may be enrolled among the number of good Kings. In speciall, for his executing that highest dutie of a good King, the imploying his authoritie in his Kingdome, [Page]to command good things, and forbid euill, not onely concerning the ciuill estate of men, but the religion also of God. Witnesse his authorizing the Scriptures [...]o be had and read in Churches in our Vulgar tongue, enioyning the Lords Prayer, the Creed, and ten Commandements to bee taught the people in English, abolishing superfluous Holy-dayes, pulling downe those iugling Idols, whereby the people were seduced, namely, the Rood of Grace, whose eyes and lips were moued with wires, openly shewed at Pauls Crosse, and pulled asunder by the people. Aboue all, the abolishing of the Popes tyranny, and merchandise of Indulgences, & such like chafer out of England. Which Acts of his whosoeuer shall vnpartially consider of, may well esteeme him a better head to the Chur [...]h of England, then any Pope these thousand yeeres.

In the last place you come to the Hugenots and Geuses, of France and Holland. You lay to their charge, the raising of ciuill warres, shedding of bloud, occasioning rebellion, rapine, desolations, principally for their new religion. In the latter part you write, I confesse, somewhat reseruedly, when you say, occasioning, not causing, and principally, not onely and wholly, for religion. But the words going before, and the exigence of your argument require, that your meaning should be, they were the causers of these disorders. You bring to my minde a story, whether of the same Fimbria that I mentioned before, or another, which hauing caused Quintus Scaeuola to bee stab'd (as F. Paulo was, while I was at Venice) after he vnderstood that he escaped with his life, brought his action against him, for not hauing receiued the weapon wholly into his body. These poore people hauing endured such barbarous cruelties, massacres, and martyrdomes, as scarce the like can be shewed in all stories, are now accused by you as the Authors of all they suffered. No, no, Master Wadesworth, they bee the Lawes of the Romane religion, that are written in bloud. It is the bloudy Inquisition, and the perfidious violating of the [Page] Edicts of Pacification, that haue set France and Flanders in combustion. An euident argument whereof may b [...]e, for Flanders, that those Geuses that you mention, were not all Caluinists (as you are mis-informed) the chiefe of them were Romane Catholikes; as namely, Count Egmond, and Horne, who lost their heads for standing, and yet onely by petition, against the new impositions, and the Inquisition, which was sought to bee brought in vpon those Countries. The which when the Vice-roy of Naples, D. Petro de Toledo would haue once brought in there also,An. 1547. the people would by no meanes abide, but rose vp in Armes to the number of 50000. which sedition could not bee appeased, but by deliuering them of that feare. The like resistance, though more quietly carried, was made when the same Inquisition should haue beene put vpon Millaine, 1563. sixteene yeeres after. Yet these people were neither Geuses nor Caluinists. Another great meanes to alienate the mindes of the people of the Low-countries from the obedience of the Catholike Maiestie, hath beene the seueritie of his Deputies there, one of which leauing the gouernment after hee had in a few yeeres put to death18000. 8000. persons, it is reported to haue been said, the Countrie was lost with too much lenitie. This speech Meursius concludes his Belgick history with all. And as for France, the first broiles there, were not for religion, but for the preferring the house of Guis [...], and disgracing the Princes of the bloud. True it is that each side aduantaged themselues by the colour of religion, and vnder pretence of zeale to the Romane, the Guisians murthered the Protestants, being in the exercise of their religion assembled together, against the Kings Edict, against all Lawes and common humanitie. And tell [...]ee in good sooth▪ Master Wadesworth, doe you approue such barbarous crueltie? Doe you allow the butchery at Paris? Doe you thinke subiects are bound to giue their throates to bee cut by their fellow subiects, or to their Princes at their meere wills [Page] against their owne Lawes and Edicts? You would know, quo iure, the Protestants warres in France and Holland are iustified. First, the Law of Nature, which not onely alloweth, but inclineth and inforceth euery liuing thing, to defend it selfe from violence. Secondly, that of Nations, which permitteth those that are in the protection of others, to whom they owe no more but an honourable acknowledgement, in case they goe about to make themselues absolute Souereignes, and vsurpe their libertie, to resist and stand for the same. And if a lawfull Prince (which is not yet Lord of his Subiects liues and goods) shall attempt to despoile them of the same, vnder colour of red [...]cing them to his owne religion after all humble remonstrances, they may stand vpon their owne guard, and being assailed, repell force with force, as did the Macchabees vnder Antiochus. In which case notwithanding, the person of the Prince himselfe, ought alwaies to be sacred and inuiolable, as was Sauls to Dauid. Lastly, if the inraged Minister of a lawfull Prince, will abuse his authoritie against the fundamentall Lawes of the Countrie, it is no rebellion to defend themselues against force, reseruing still their obedience to their Souereigne inuiolate. These are the Rules of which the Protestants that haue borne Armes in France and Flanders, and the Papists also both there and elsewhere, as in Naples, that haue stood for the defence of their liberties, haue serued themselues. How truely I esteeme it hard for you and mee to determine, vnlesse we were more throughly acquainted with the Lawes and Customes of those Countries, then I for my part am. Once for the Low-Countries, the world knowes that the Dukes of Burgundy were not Kings or absolute Lords of them, which are holden partly of the Crowne of France, and partly of the Empire. And of Holland in particular they were but Earles. And whether that title carries with it such a Souereigntie, as to bee able to giue new Lawes, without their consents, to impose tributes, to bring in garisons [Page] of strangers, to build Forts, to assubjects their honors and liues to the dangerous triall of a new Court, proceeding without forme or figure of iustice, any reasonable man may well doubt; themselues doe vtterly denie it.

Yet you say boldly they are Rebels, and aske why wee did support them? It seemes to some that his Catholike Maiestie doth absolue them in the treatie of the Truce, An. 1608. of all imputation of rebellion. And if they were Rebels, especially for heresie, why did the most Christian King support them? As for Queene Elizabeth, if shee were aliue, shee would answer your question with another. Why did Spaine concurre in practice and promise aide to that detestable conspiracie that was plotted against her by Pius V. as you may see at large in his life, written by Girolamo Catena? It is, you say, an easie matter to pretend priuiledges. But it is no hard matter to discerne pretended priuiledges from true, and Treason from Reason of State, and old corruptions from old Religion. But to take armes to change the Lawes by the whole Estate established, is treason whatsoeuer the cause or colour be: and therefore is was treason in the Rebels of Lincolnshire and Yorkshire in King Henries dayes, and in the Earles of the North in Queene Elizabeths, though they pretended their old Religion: and the same must bee said of all Assasinates attempted against the persons of Princes, as Parryes, Someruilles, Squires, against Queene Elizab [...]th, and the late powder-plot the eternall shame of Poperie against King Iames.

To your Argument therefore in forme, admitting that it is no true Church, which is founded and begun in malice, disobedience, passion, bloud, and rebellion, no nor yet a true reformation of a Church (for in truth the Protestants pretend not to haue founded any.) The Assumption is denyed in euery part of it. And here I must needes say you haue not done vnwisely to leaue out the Church of England, as against which you had no pretence, all things hauing been carried orderly, and by publike counsell. But you haue [Page] wronged those which you name, and either lightly beleeued, or vnjustly surmised your selfe, touching Luther, Caluin, Knox, the French, and the Hollanders, when you make them the raysers of rebellion and shedders of bloud. Whose bloud hath beene shed like water in al parts of those countries, against all Lawes of God and Man against the Edicts and publike Faith, till necessitie enforced them to stand for their liues. Yet you presume that all this is euident to the world, whereas it is so false and improbable, yea in some parts impossible, as I wonder how your heart could assure your hand to write it.

Giue me here leaue to set down by occasion of this your motiue, that which I professe next to the euidence of those corruptions which the Court and faction of Rome maintaynes, hath long moued my selfe. And thus I would enlarge your Proposition. That Monarchie (as now without lisping it cals it selfe) which was founded, supported, enlarged, and is yet maintayned by pride, ambition, rebellion, treason, murthering of Princes, warres, dispensing with perjurie, and incestuous marriages, spoiles and robberie of Churches, and Kingdomes, worldly policie, force and falshood, forgerie, lying, and hypocrisie, is not the Church of Christ, and his Kingdome, but the tyrannie of Antichrist. The Papacie falsely calling it selfe the Church of Rome is such. Erg [...]. The Assumption shall bee proued in euery part of it, and in truth is alreadie by the learned and truly noble Lord of Plessis in his Mysterium iniquit at is. But his booke I suppose you cannot view, and it would require a iust volume to shew it, though but shortly. It shall bee therefore, if you will, the taske of another time. And yet because I doe not loue to leaue things wholly at randon, consider a few instances in some of these. Pope B [...]niface III. obtayned that proud and ambitious title of Oecumenicall, so much detested by Saint Gregorie. Pope Constantine and Gregorie the second, reuolted Italie from the Greeke Emperours obedience, forbidding to pay tribute or obey [Page] them. Pope Zacharie animated Pipine high Steward of France, to depose Chilperick his Lord, and dispensed with the oathes of his subiects. Pope Stephen II. most treacherously and vniustly perswaded the same Pipine not to restore the Exarchate of Ranenna to the Emperour, after he had recouered it from Astulfus King of Lombards, but to giue it to him. Pope Nicholas II. and Gr [...]gorie VII. parted the prey with the Normans in Calabria, and Apulia, creating them Dukes thereof,He [...]ri [...] [...] to hold the Emperour of Constantinoples countrie in vassallage of them. This latter also was the first as all Historians accord, that euer attempted to depose the Emperour, against whom hee most impiously stirred vp his owne children, which most lamentably brought him to his end. Pope Paschal II. would not suffer (for the full accomplishment of this Tragedie) his sonne to burie him. Pope Adrian IV. demanded homage of the Emperor Frederick, Alexander III. trode on his neck. Celestine III. crowned Henrie VI. with his feet. Innocent IV. stirred vp Fredericke the seconds owne seruants to poison him, practised with the Sultan of Aegypt to breake with him. This is that Innocent, of whose extortions Matthew Paris relates so much in our storie; whom the learned, zealous, and holy Bishop of Lincolne on his death-bed proued to be Antichrist, and in a vision strooke so with his Crosier-staffe that hee died. Boniface VIII. challenged both swords, pretended to be superiour to the King of France in temporall things also. Clement V. would in the vacancie of the Empire, that all the Cities and Countries thereof should be vnder his disposition, made the Duke of Venice, Dandalus, couch vnder his Table with a chaine on his neck like a dogge, ere he would grant peace to the Venetians. This Clement the V. commanded the Angels to carrie their soules to heauen, that should take the Crosse to fight for the holy Land.

What shall I say more? I am wearie with writing thus much, and yet in all this I doe not insist vpon priuate and [Page] personall faults, blasphemies, perjuries, necromancies, murthers, barbarous cruelties, euen vpon one another, aliue and dead, nor on whoredomes, incests, sodomies, open pillages, besides the perpetuall abuse of the censures of the Church. I insist not vpon these, more then you did vpon King Henries passions. I tell you not of him that called the Gospell a fable, or another that instituted his Agnus Deis to strangle sinne like Christs bloud. Of him that dispensed with one to marrie his owne sister (for the vncle to marrie with the neece, or a woman to marrie two brothers, a man two sisters by dispensation, is no rare thing at this day.) The facultie to vse Sodomie, the storie of Pope Ioane, are almost incredible, and yet they haue Authors of better credit then Bolseck. It may bee said that Iohn the two and twentieth called a deuill incarnate, that Alexander VI. the poisoner of his Cardinals, the adulterer of his sonne in lawes bed, incestuous defiler of his owne daughter, and riuall in that villanie to his sonne, sinned as men, which empeacheth not the credit of their office. That Paulu [...] V. Vice-deus takes too much vpon him, when hee will bee Pope-almightie; but the chaire is without error. Wherein, not to insist for the present, but admitting it as true that wickednesse of mens persons doth not impeach the holinesse of their functions, which they haue receiued of God, nor make Gods ordinances, as his Word and Sacraments of none effect. But tell me for Gods loue, Master Waddesworth, is it likely that this Monarchie thus sought, thus gotten, thus kept, thus exercised, is of God? Are these men that wholly forsaking the feeding of the flocke of God dreame of nothing now but Crowns and Scepter [...], serue to the Church to no vse in the world, vnlesse it be to breake the ancient Canons, and oppresse with their power all that shall but vtter a free word against their ambition and tyrannie, are they, I will not say with you, good heads of Gods Church, but members of it, and not rather limbes of Satan? Consider those Texts: My Kingdome is not of this [Page]world, Vos autem non sic. Consider the charge which Saint Peter giues to his fellow Presbyters, 1. Pet. 5. 2, 3, 4. Now I beseech our Lord deliuer his Church from this tyrannie, and blesse you from being a member of such a Head.

CHAP. XI.
Of lacke of succession, Bishops, true Ordinations, Ord [...]rs, Priesthood.

I Come now to your motiue from succession. Where I maruell first, that leauing the succession of Doctrine, which is farre more proper and intrinsecall to the Churches being, you stand vpon that of Persons and Offices. Yea, and about them too, immediately passe from that which is of Essence, to the externall formalities in consecration and ordination, according to the ancient Councels. Haue you forgotten what you said right now, that matters of ceremonie and gouernment are changeable? Yea, but in France, Holland, and Germanie, they haue no Bishops. First, what if I should defend they haue? because a Bishop and a Presbyter are all one, as Saint Ierome maintaines, and prooues out of holy Scripture, and the vse of Antiquitie. Of which iudgement, as Medina confesseth, are sundrie of the ancient Fathers, both Greeke and Latine [...] Saint Ambrose, Augustine, Seduliu [...], Primasius, Chrysostome, Theodorit, Oecumenius, and Theophylact: which point I haue largely treated of in another place, against him that vndertooke Master Alablasters quarrell. Besides, those Churches in Germanie haue those whom they call Superintendents, and generall Superintendents, Cap. 8. as out of Doctor Bancroft by the testimonie of Zanchius, and sundrie Germane Diuines, you might perceiue. Yea, and where these are not, as in Geneua; and the French Churches, yet there are, saith Zanchius, [...]sually certaine chiefe men that doe in a manner beare all the[Page]sway, as if order it selfe and necessitie led them to this course. And what are these but Bishops indeede, vnlesse wee shall wrangle about names, which for reason of State those Churches were to abstaine from. As for that you say Lay men intermed [...]le there with the making of their Ministers, if you meane the election of them, they haue reason; for anciently the people had alwayes a right therein, as Saint Cyprian writes to the Churches of Leon and Astorga there in Spaine, Plebs ipsa maxime habet potestatem vel eligendi dignos Sacerdotes vel indignos recusandi; and in sundrie places of Italie this vsage doth continue to this day. If yee meane it in Ordination, yee are deceiued, and wrong these Churches, as Bellarmine himselfe will teach you, lib. De Cl [...]ricis, cap. 3. For amongst the Lutherans and Caluinists also, saith hee, which haue taken away almost all Ecclesiasticall rites, they onely lay on hands and make Pastors and Ministers, who though they be not Pastors and Bishops indeede would be so accounted and called.

In England you misse first the lesser orders, and say, we are made Ministers per saltum, as if all that are made Priests among you were Psalmists, Sextens, Readers, Ex [...]rcists, Torch-bearers, Subdeacons, and Deacons before. Remember I pray what the Master of the Sentences saith of Deaconship and Priesthood. Hos solos primitiu [...] Ecclesia legitur habuisse, & de his solis praeceptum Apostoli habemus. Hee meanes in the Epistles to T [...]othy and Titus. Againe, Subdiaeonos vere & Acolythos precede [...]te tempore Ecclesia sibi constituit. What? and were the Primitiue and Apostolike Churches no true Churches? or neede wee to bee ashamed to bee like them? Besides, those Councels that yee speake of, it should seeme were of no great either antiquitie or authoritie, when not onely Presbyters, without passing through any order, but Bishops without being so much as baptized, were ordayned. As Nectarius of Constantinople, Synesius of Cyrene, Ambrose of Millaine, Constantine II. of Rome it selfe. This therefore is a very sleight exception.

[Page] Your next is well worse, touching the Ordination at the Nags-head, where the Consecration of our first Bishops, as you say was attempted, but not effected. It is certaine, you say, and you are sure there was such a matter, although you know, and haue seene the records themselues, that afterward there was a Consecration of Doctor Parker at Lambeth. Alas Master Wadesworth, if you bee resolued to beleeue lies, not onely against publike Acts, and your owne eye-sight, but against all probabilitie, who can helpe it? I had well hoped to haue found that ingenuitie in you, that I might haue vsed your testimony vnto others of that side, touching the vanitie of this fable, as hauing shewed you the Copie of the record of Doctor Parkers consecration, which I had procured to bee transcribed out of the Acts, which your selfe also at your returne from London, told mee you saw in a blacke Booke. Now I perceiue by your perplexed writing, and enterlining in this part of your Letter, you would faine discharge your conscience, and yet vphold this lie, perhaps, as loth to offend that side where you now are: and therefore you haue deuised this temper, that the one was attempted, the other effected. But it will not bee. For first of all, if that at the Nags-head were but attempted, what is that to the purpose of our Ordinations, which are not deriued from it, but from the other, which as you say was effected at Lambeth? And are you sure there was such a matter? How are you sure? Were you present there in person, or haue you heard it of those that were present? Neither of both I suppose: but if it were so that some bodie pretending to haue beene there present told you so much, how are you sure that hee lied not in saying so; much more when you haue it but at the third, or fourth hand, perhaps the thirtieth or fortieth. But consider a little, is it probable that men of that sort, in an action of that importance, and at the beginning of the Queenes reigne, when especially it concerned both them and her to prouide, that all things should bee done with [Page] reputation, would bee so hastie and heedlesse, as to take a Tauerne for a Church? Why might they not haue gone to the next Church as well? They thought to make the old Catholike Bishop drunken. Thus the Wisbich and Framyngham Priests were wont to tell the tale. Is it likely that they would not forethinke that possible this good old man would not drinke so freely as to bee drunken, and if hee were, yet would not be in the humour to doe as they would haue him? for who can make any foundation vpon what another would doe in his cups? What a scorne would this bee to them? Men are not alwaies so prouident in their actions. True, but such men are not to bee imagined so so [...]tish, as to attempt so solemne an action, and ioyned commonly with some great feast, and as you obserued well out of the Acts, with the Queens mandate for the action to be done, and hang all vpon a drunken fit of an old man. Besides, how comes it to passe that wee could neuer vnderstand the names of the old Bishop, or of those whom hee should haue consecrated, or which consecrated themselues, when hee refused to doe it. For so doe your men giue it out; howsoeuer you say, it was not there effected. And in all the space of Queene Elizabeths reigne, wherein so many set themselues against the reformation by her established, is it possible wee should neuer haue heard word of it, of all the English on that side the Seas, if it had beene any other then a flying tale? After fortie fiue yeeres, [...]ristophorus à Sacro bosco Dubliniensis. there is found at last an Irish Iesuite that dares put it in print, to proue by it as now you doe, that the Parliamentary Pastors lacke holy orders. But he relates sundry particulars, and brings his proofes. For the purpose, this ordainer or consecrater, hee saith, was Laudasensis Episcopus home senex & simplex. His name? Nay, that yee must pardon him. But of what Citie or Diocesse was hee Bishop? for wee haue none of that title. Here I thought once that by errour it had beene put for Landaffensis of Landaffe in Wales, saue that three times in that Narration [Page] it is written La [...]dasensis; which notwithstanding, I continued to bee of the same minde, because I found Bishop Boners name twice alike false written Bomerus. But loe in the Margent a direction to the Booke, De Schismate fol. 166. where hee saith this matter is touched, and it is directly affirmed, that they performed the Office of Bishops, without any Episcopall consecration. Againe, that great labour was vsed without an Irish Arch-bishop in prison at London to ordaine them, but hee could by no meanes be brought thereto. So it seemes we must passe out of Wales into Ireland, to finde the See of this Bishop or Archbishop. But I beleeue we may saile from thence to Virginia to seeke him; for in Ireland we shal not find him. Let vs come to those that he should haue ordained, what were there names? Candidati, if that wil content you, more yee get not. Why they might haue been remembred as well as the Nags-head, as well as Boners name, and his See, and that hee was Dean [...] of the Bishops, hee meanes of the Archbishopricke, sede vacante, and that he sent his Chaplaine (his name also is vnknowne) to forbid the Ordination. At least their Sees. To cut the matter short. Quid plura? Scoraeus Monachus post Herefordensis pseudo-episcopus coeteris, ex coeteris quidam, Scor aeo manus imponunt: fiuntque sine patre fili [...] & pater à fili [...]s procreatur, res seculis omnibus inauditae. Here is at length some certaintie: some truth mingled among, to giue the better grace, and to be as it were the Vehiculum of a lie. For Iohn Scory, in King Edward his times, Bishop of Chichester, and after of Hereford, was one of those that ordained Doctor Parker, and preached at his ordination. But that was the ordination effected as you call it: wee are now in that which was not effected, but attempted onely. And here wee seeke againe, who were these quidams that laid hands on S [...]ory? Wee may goe looke them with La [...]dasensis the Archbishop of Ireland. Well; heare the proofes. Master Thomas Neale, Hebrew Reader of Oxford, which was present, told thus much to the ancient Confessors, they to F. H [...]lywood. [Page] This proofe by Tradition as you know is of little credit with Protestants, and no maruell: for experience shewes that reports suffer strange alterations in the carriage, euen when the reporters are not interessed. Iremeus relates from the ancient Confessors, Lib. 2. c. 29. which had seene Iohn the Disciple, and the other Apostles of the Lord, and heard it from them, that Christ our Sauiour was betweene fortie and fiftie yeeres of age before his passion. I doe not thinke you are sure it was so. For my part, I had rather beleeue. Irenaeus and those ancients hee mentions, and the Apostles; then F. Haliwood and his Confessors, and Master Neale. But possible it is, M. Neale said, hee was present at Matthew Parkers ordination by Iohn Scory. These Confessors being before impressed, as you are, with the buzze of the ordination at the Nags-head made vp that tale; and put it vpon him for their Author. Perhaps Master Neale did esteeme Iohn Scory t [...] bee no Bishop, and so was scandalized though causelesly, at that action. Perhaps Master Neale neuer said any such word at all. To helpe to make good this matter, hee saith, It was after inacted in Parliament, that these Parliamentary Bishops should be holden for lawfull. I looked for some thing of the Nags-head Bishops, and the Legend of their ordination. But the lawfulnesse that the Parliament prouides for, is (according to the authoritie the Parliament hath) [...]iuill, that is, according to the Lawes of the Land. The Parliament neuer intended to iustifie any thing as lawfull, iure diuino, which was not so; as by the Preamble it selfe of the Statute may appeare. [...] In which it is said, That diuers questions had growne vpon the making and consecrating of Arch-bishops and Bishops, within this Realme, whether the same were, and bee duely and orderly done according to the Law or not, &c. And shortly to cut off F. Halywoods surmises, the case was this, as may bee gathered by the bodie of the Statute. Whereas in the fiue and twentieth of Henry the Eight, an Act was made for the electing and consecrating of Arch-bishops and Bishops within this Realme. And another in the [Page] third of Edward the Sixth, for the ordering and consecrating of them, and all other Ecclesiasticall Ministers, according to such forme as by sixe Prelates, and sixe other learned men in Gods Law to bee appointed by the King should bee deuised, and set forth, vnder the great Seale of England. Which forme in the fifth of the same Kings reigne, was annexed to the Booke of Common Prayer, then explained, and perfected; and both confirmed by the authoritie of Parliament. All these Acts were 1. Mariae & 1. & 2. Philippi & Mariae repealed; together with another Statute of 35. Henr. 8. touching the stile of supreame Head to bee vsed in all Letters Patents and Commissions, &c. These Acts of repeale in the 1. Elizabeth were againe repealed, and the Act of 25. Hen. 8. reuiued specially. That of 3. Edwar. 6. onely concerning the Booke of Common Prayer, &c. without any particular mention of the booke or forme of ordering Ministers and Bishops. Hence grew one doubt, whether ordinations and consecrations according to that forme were good in Law or no. Another was, Queene Elizabeth in her Letters Patents touching such Consecrations, Ordinations had not vsed as may seeme, besides other generall words importing the highest authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall, the title of Supreame Head, as King Henry, and King Edward in their like Letters Patents were wont to d [...]: & that notwithstanding the Act of 35. Hen. 8. after the repeale of the former repeale might seeme (though neuer specially) reuiued. This as I ghosse was another exception, to those t [...]at by vertue of those Patents were Consecrated. Whereupon the Parliament declares. First, that the Booke of Common Prayer, and such order and, form [...] for consecrating of Archbishops and [...] Bishops, &c. as was set forth in the time of King Edward the Sixth, and added thereto and authorised by Parliament, shall stand in force and be obserued. Secondly, That all Acts done by any person about any consecration, confirmation, o [...] in [...]esting of any elect to the Office or Dignitie of[Page]Arch-bishop or Bishop, by vertue of the Queenes Letters Patents or Commission, since the beginning of her reigne bee good [...] Thirdly, That all that haue beene ordered or consecrated Archbishops, Bishops, Priests, &c. after the said forme and order, be rightly made, ordered, and consecrated, any Statute, Law, Canon, or other thing to the contrary notwithstanding. These were the reasons of that Act; which as you see doth not make good the Nags-head-ordination as F. Halywood pretends, vnlesse the same were according to the forme in Edward the Sixth dayes. His next proofe is, that Bo [...]er Bishop of London while hee liued, alwayes set light by the Statutes of the Parliaments of Queene Elizaboth, alleadging that there wanted Bishops, without whose consent by the Lawes of the Realme there can no firme Statuee bee made. That Boner despised and set not a straw by the Acts of Parliament in Queene Elizabeths time, I hold it not impossible, and yet there is no other proofe thereof, but his bare word, and the ancient Confessors tradition, of which we heard before. Admitting this for certaine, there might bee other reasons thereof, besides the ordination at the Nags-head. The stiffenesse of that man was no lesse in King Edwards time, then Queene Elizabeths. And indeed the want also of Bishops might be the cause, why he little regarded the Acts of her first Parliament. For both much about the time of Queene Maries death dyed also Cardinall Poole, and sundry other Bishops: and of the rest some for their contemptuous behauiour in denying to performe their dutie in the Coronation of the Queene were committed to prison, others absented themselues willingly. So as it is commonly reported to this day, there was none or very few there. For as for Doctor Parker and the rest, they were not ordained till December, 1559. the Parliament was dissolued in the May before. So not to stand now to refute Boners conceit, that according to our Lawes there could bee no Statutes made in Parliament without Bishops (wherein our Parliament men wil rectifie [Page] his iudgement) F. Halywood was in this report twice deceiued, or would deceiue his Reader. First, that he would make that exception which Boner laid against the first Parliament in Queen Elizabeths time, to be true of all the rest. Then, that he accounts B. Boner to haue excepted against this Parliament, because the Bishops there were no Bishops as not canonically ordained: where it was, because there was no Bishops true or false there at all. His last proofe is. That D. Bancroft being demanded of M. Al [...]blaster, whence their first Bishops receiued their orders? answered, that hee hoped a Bishop might bee ordained of a Presbyter in time of necessity. Silently granting, that they were not ordained by any Bishop: and therefore, saith he, the Parliamentary Bishops are without order Episcopall, & their Ministers also no Priests. For Priests are not made but of Bishops, whence Hierome. Qu [...]d facit, &c. What doth a Bishop, sauing ordination, which a Presbyter doth not? I haue not the meanes to demand of D. Alablaster, whether this be true or not. Nor yet whether this be all the answere he had of D. Bancroft. That I affirme, that if it were, yet it followes not, that D. Bancroft silently granted they had no orders of bishops. Vnlesse he that in a false discourse, both where propositions be vntrue, denies the Maior, doth silently grant the Minor. Rather he iested at the futilitie of this Argument, which admitting all this lying Legend of the Nags-head, and more to; suppose no ordination by any Bishops had beene euer effected, notwithstanding shewes no sufficient reason why there might not be a true consecration, and true Ministers made, and consequently a true Church in England. For indeed necessitie dispences with Gods owne positiue Lawes,Mark [...] as our Sauiour shewes in the Gospel much more then with mans: and such by Hieromes opinion are the Lawes of the Church, touching the difference of Bishops and Presbyters, and consequently touching their ordination by Bishops onely. Whereof I haue treated more at large in another place, for the iustification of other reformed [Page] Churches, albeit the Church of England needs it not. To confirme this Argument, it pleaseth F. Halywood to add [...], That King Edward the Sixth, tooke away the Catholike rite of ordaining, and in stead of it, substituted a few Caluinisticall prayers. Whom Queene Elizabeth followed, &c. And this is in effect the same thing which you say, when you adde, that Couerdale being made Bishop of Exceter in King Edwards time, when all Councells and Church Canons were little obserued, it is very doubtfull hee was neuer himselfe canonically consecrated, and so if hee were no canonicall Bishop, hee could not make another canonicall. To F. Halywood I would answere, that King Edward tooke not away the Catholike rite of ordaining, but purged it from a number of idle and superstitious rites prescribed by the Popish Pontifical. And the praiers which he scoffes at if they were Caluinisticall, sure it was by prophecie, for Caluin neuer saw them [...]ill Queene Maries time; when by certaine of our English exiles, the Booke of Common Prayer was translated and shewed him; if he saw them then. Some of them, as the Let any, and the Hymne Veni Creator, &c. I hope were none of Caluins deuising. To you, if you name what Councells and Church Canons you meane, and make any certaine exception, either against Bishop Couerdale, or any of the rest as not canonicall Bishops, I will endeauour to satisfie you. Meane while remember I beseech you, that both Law, and reason, and Religion should induce you in doubtfull things to follow the most fauourable sentence, and not rashly out of light surmises to pronounce against a publike and solemne ordination, against the Orders conferred successiuely from it, against a whole Church. Wherein I cannot but commend Doctor Carriers modestie, Pag. 7. whose words are these. I will not determine against the succession of the Clergie in England, because it is to mee very doubtfull. De des [...]erata [...] causa. [...]. 11. And the discretion of Cudsemius the Iesuire, which denies the English Nation to be Heretickes, because they remaine in a perpetuall succession of Bishops. And to take [Page] away all doubt from you, that some of these Ordayners were onely Bishops elect, and vnconsecrated; besides Miles Couerdale, in King Edwards time Bishop of Exceter, cast in prison by Queene Mary, and released and sent ouer Sea to the King of Denmarke, know that William Barlow was another; in King Edwards dayes Bishop of Bath and Welles, in Queene Maries beyond the Seas in the companie of the Duchesse of Suffolke and Master B [...]rtie her husband; at the time of Doctor Parkers ordination Elect of Chichester. A third was, Iohn Scorie, in King Edwards time Bishop of Chichester, and at the time of the said ordination Elect of Hereford. A fourth was Iohn Hodgeskin, Suffragan of Bedford. And these foure, if they were all ordained according to the forme ratified in King Edwards dayes, were presented by two Bishops at least to the Archbishop, and of him and them receiued imposition of hands, as in the said forme is appointed.

One scruple yet remaines which you haue, in that these men did consecrate Doctor Parker by vertue of a Breue from the Queene, as head of the Church who being no true head, and a woman, you see not how they could make a true consecrationr grounded on her authoritie. But to cleare you in this also, you must vnderstand the Queenes mandate serued not to giue power to ordaine (which those Bishops had before in [...]rinsecally annexed to their office) but leaue and warrant to apply that power to the person named in that Mandate. A thing, vnlesse I haue beene deceiued by reports, vsed in other Countries, yea in the Kingdomes of his Catholike Maiestie himselfe. Sure I am by the Christian Emperours in the primitiue Church, as you may see in the Ecclesiasticall histories, and namely, in the ordination of Nectarius, that I spake of before. Yea, which is more in the consecration of the Bishops of Rome, as of Leo VIII. whose Decree, with the Synode at Rome touching this matter, is set downe by Gratian, Dist. 63. c. 23. taken from the example of Hadria [...], and another Councell which gaue to [Page] Charles the Great, Ius & potestatem eligendi Pontificem, & ordinandi Apostolicam sedom, as you may see in the Chapter next before. See the same Dist. c. 16. & 17. & 18. and you shall finde,C. Lectis. that when one was chosen Bishop of Reate, within the Popes owne Prouince, by the Clergie and people,C. Reatina. and sent to him by Guido the Count to be consecrated, the Pope durst not doe it till the Emperours licence were obtained. Yea, that hee writes to the Emperour for Colonus,C. Nobis. that receiuing his licence hee might consecrate him either there, or in the Church of Tusculum, which accordingly vpon the Emperors bidding he performed.

Yet another exception you take, to the making our Ministers, that wee keepe not the right intention. First, because we neither giue nor take Orders as a Sacrament. By that reason we should haue no true marriages amongst vs neither, because we count not Matrimonie a Sacrament. This Controuersie depends vpon the definition of a Sacrament, which if it be put to be a signe of a holy thing, these be both so, and a many more then seuen. If a seale of the New Testament, so are there but those two, which we properly call Sacraments; Lib. 4. dist. 12. Baptisme, and the Lords Supper. In which last, as to the intention of sacrificing, surely, if yee allow the doctrine of the Master of the Sentences, that it is called a Sacrifice and Oblation, which is offered and consecrated by the Priest, because it is a memorie and representation of the true Sacrifice and holy immolation made on the Altar of the Crosse. And, that Christ once dyed on the Crosse, and there was offered vp in himselfe, but is daily offered vp in a Sacrament, because in the Sacrament there is a remembrance of that which wa [...] once done; De Consecrat. dist. 2. which he there confirmes by the authorities of the Fathers, cited by Gratian in the Canon Law. If this Doctrine,L [...]c. The [...]. lib. 12. cap. 12. I say, may yet passe for good, and this bee the Churches intention, wee want not this intention of sacrificing. Adde to this the confession of Melchior Canus, who saith, the Lutherans doe not wholly denie the sacrifice, but grant a Sacrifice of thanks giuing, which they call the f. Fucharisticum. Eucharist: [Page]they will haue none for sinne which they call propitiatorie. If he had put hereto, vnlesse it bee in a mysterie, hee had rightly expressed the opinion of the Protestants.

Thirdly yee object, wee want the matter and forme with which orders should be giuen: namely, for the matter in Priesthood the deliuerie of the Patena with bread, and the Chalice with wine: in Deaconship the deliuerie of the booke of the Gospell, &c. By which reason the seuen first Deacons had no true ordination, for then there was no Gospell written to be deliuered them. Nor those Priests whom the Pope shall make by his sole word, saying, Esto Sacerdos. Whom notwithstanding sundrie famous Canonists hold to bee well and lawfully ordained; and Innocentius himselfe saith, that if these formes of Ordination were not found out, any other Ordainer might in like manner make Priests, with those words, or the like: for as much as these formes were in processe of time appointed by the Church. And if wee list to seeke for these Metaphysicall notions of matter and forme, in Ordination, which at the most can bee but by Analogie, how much better might wee assigne the persons deputed to sacred functions to be the matter (as those that contract are by your selues made the matter in matrimonie) and the imposing of hands, with the expressing the authoritie and office giuen to bee the forme? In Dionysius though falsly called the Areopagite, yet an ancient Author, yee shall finde nothing else; nor which I may tell you by the way, any other orders, saue Bishops, Priests, and Deacons.

And to come to that wherein you say wee faile most of all, the substantiall forme of Priesthood, tell mee ingenuously, good Master Wadesworth, how doe you know that our Lord Iesus Christ made his Apostles, or they others Priests with this forme, which hath no mention or footstep in the Gospell, or otherwhere in holy Scripture! Nor so much as in the Councell of Carthage; that from whence the manner of giuing other orders is fetched, nor in Gratian, nor in any [Page] other ancient Author that I can finde, saue in the Pontificall onely. And is the present Pontificall of such authoritie with you, as the forme of Priesthood, the substantiall forme, can subsist in no other wordes then those that bee there expressed? To omit the late turkesing whereof, consider what Augustinus Patritius writes in his Preface before that which at Pope Innocent VIII. his commandement he patched together: That there were scarce two or three bookes found that deliuered the same thing: Quot libri tot varietates. Ille deficit, hic superabundat, alius nihil omnino de eâre habet, raro ant nunquam conueniunt; saepe obscuri, implicati, & librariorum vitio plerung mendosi. And in truth in this your essentiall forme of Priesthood, the old Pontificals before that which he set forth, either had other words at the giuing of the Chalice and Paten as may seeme; or wanted both that forme and the matter also together. The Master of the Sentences declaring the manner of the Ordination of Priests, and the reason why they haue the Chalice with wine, and Paten with hosts giuen vnto them, saith it is, Vt per hoc sciant se accepisse potestatem placabiles Deo hostias offerendi. Hugo in like manner, Accipiunt & Calicem cum vino, & Patenam cum hostia de mann Episcopi, quatenus potestatem se accepisse cognoscant, placabiles Deo hostias offerendi. Stephanus Eduensis Episcopus, in the same wordes: Datur eis Calix cum vino, & Patena cum hostia, in quo traditur ijs potestas ad offerendum Deo placabiles hostias. So Iohannes Ianuensis in his Summe, intituled, Catholicon, verbo Presbyter. If yee ascend to the higher times of Rabanus, Alcuinus, Isidorus, you shall finde that they mention no such matter, of deliuering Chalice or Paten, or wordes vsed at the deliuerie; and no maruell, for in the Canons of the fourth Councel of Carthage they found none. Diony [...]ius falsly called Areopagita, whom I mentioned before, setting downe the manner of ordaining in his time. The Priest vpon both his knees before the Altar with the Bishop [...] right hand vpon his head, is on this manner sanctified by[Page]his Consecrator with holy inuocations. Here is all, s [...]ue that he saith, after he hath described that also which pertaines vnto the Deacon, that euery one of them is signed with the crosse when the Bishop blesseth them, and proclaimed, and saluted by the Consecrator himselfe and euery one of that sacred Order that is present. The Greeke Schol [...]ast very l [...]uely shewes the meaning and manner of this proclaiming. Her saith, The Ordayner pronounceth by name when hee signeth him, [...]. Such a man is consecrated from bein [...] Presbyter to be a Bishop in the name of the father, &c. and s. in the Presbyter and Deacon. Clemens Romanus [...] F. Turrian and the rest of the Romish [...]action deceiue vs [...] be not deceiued themselues, in attributing to him the [...] bookes of the Apostolike Constitutions that [...] name) cuts the matter yet more short, and without [...] crossing or proclaiming, appoints the Bishop to lay his [...] vpon him, in the presence of the Presbyterie and the Deacor [...] vsing a Prayer, which you may see at length in him; [...] the increase of the Church, and of the number of them that by word and worke may edifie it: for the partie elected vnto [...]he [...] fice of Priesthood, that being filled with the operations of healings, and word of Doctrine, he may instruct Gods people with meeknesse and serue him sincerely with a pure minde, and willing heart, and performe holy seruices without spot for his people through his Christ, to whom &c. These last words which are in the Greeke, [...]. Carol [...] Bouius Bishop of [...] interprets, & sacrificia pro populo tuo immaculata [...]. Maruell that he added not, tam pro [...] quam pro defunctis. Sure if Saint Paul, Rom. 15. 16. had not added the word' [...], hee had sacrificed also. This was the [...] cient and Apostolike manner of ordination, if the Author be worthy of credit. But that ye may perceiue what tampering there hath beene to bring ordinations to the forme [Page] which the present Pontificall prescribes, consider with me the words of Amalarius Bishop of Triers in his second Booke de Ecclesiast. Offic [...]s, where in the office of the Subdeacon thus hee writes; Miror quâ de re sumptus vsus in Ecclesia, &c. I maruell whence the vse was taken in our Church, that very often the Subdeacon should reade the Lesson at Masse, since this is not found committed vnto him, by the Ministry giuen him in consecration, nor by the Canonicall writings, nor by his name. And straight after, Nam primaro tempore; For in ancient time the Deacon read not the Gospell which was not yet written; but after it was enacted by our Fathers, that the Deacons should reade the Gospell, they appointed also that the Subdeacon should reade the Epistle or Lesson. It appeares, then that in Amalarius time, who liued with Charles the great and Lewes his Sonne, that ridiculous fo [...]me was not in the Pontificall, where the Booke of the Epistles is giuen to the Subdeacons, and power to reade them in the holy Church of God, as well for the quicke as the dead. The same Author comming to speake of Deacons, telleth of their consecration by praier, and imposition of hands, & confuteth that in the present Pontificall (which he saith he found in a little Booke of holy Orders) made he knowes not by what Author, that the Bishop alone should lay hands on the Deacon. At last he addes, There is one Ministrie added to the Deacon, viz. to reade the Gospell, which he saith, doth well befit him, quia Minister est. But of the deliuerie of the Booke of the Gospels, with authoritie to reade the Gospell for the quicke and dead, not one word. In the next Chapter of Presbyters hee expounds their name, and saith further, hunc morem tenent Episcopi nostri. Our Bishoppes haue this fashion, they annoint the hands of Presbyters with oyle, which ceremonie he declares; touching imposition of hands vpon them, he remit [...]s to that he said before in the Deacon. Then he shewes out of Ambrose, and Hierome, that these are all one Order with Bishops, and ought to gouerne the Church in common, like Moses with [Page]the seuentie Elders: as for deliuerie of Chalice and Wine, or Paten and Host, with power to sacrifice so well for the quicke as the dead, he makes no mention. Iudge you whether these were thought to be the matter and essentiall forme of Priesthood in his time. Yet one Author more wil Iname in this matter, not onely because hee is a famous Schooleman, and one of Luthers first aduersaries, and therefore ought to be of more account with that side, but because he professeth the end of his writing to be, circa Sacramentum ordinis cautos reddere, ne pertinax quisquam aut leuis sit circa modum tradendi aut recipiendi ordines. It is Cardinall Caietane, in the second Tome of his Opuscula, Tit. De modo tradendi seu recipiendi Ordines. Reade the whole where these things I obserue for our present purpose. 1. If all be gathered together which the Pontificals, or which reason or authoritie hath deliuered, the nature of all the rest of the orders except Priesthood onely, will appeare very vncertaine. 2. The lesser Orders and Subdeaconship according to the Master of the Sentences, were instituted by the Church. 3. The Deacons instituted by the Apostles, Act. 6. were not Deacons of the Altar, but of the Tables & Widdowes. 4. In Deaconship there seemes to be no certain forme for according to the old Pontificals, the laying of hands vpon the Deacon hath no certaine forme of words, but that prayer. Emitte q [...]aesumus in eos S. Sauctum: which according to the new Pontificals is to be said after the imposition of hands. For the giuing of the Booke of the Gospels, hath indeede a forme of words, but that impresseth not the Character for before any Gospell was written, the Apostles ordained Deacons by imposition of hands. 5. In the Subdeaconship also there is no Pontificall which hath not the matter without forme, viz. the deliuery of the emptie Chalice, &c. These things with more which hee there sets downe he would haue to serue to the instruction of the learned touching the vncertaintie of this whole matter to [...]each men to be wise to sobrietie, that is, euery man to be content with the accustomed[Page]Pontificall of the Church wherein he is ordained. And if ought be omitted of those things which be added out of the new Pontificals, as for example, that the Booke of the Epistles was not giuen, with those words (Take authoritie to reade the Epistles as well for the quicke as the dead) there is no neede of supplying this omission by a new ordination, for such new additions make no new law. Learne then of your owne Caietane, that the new additions of deliuery of the Chalice with wine, and Paten with Hosts, and authoritie to offer sacrifice for the quick and dead make no new Law. Learn to be content with the Pontificall of the Church, wherein you were ordained. Wherein first is verbatim all that which your Pontificals had well taken out of the holy words of our Sauiour, Accipe Spiritum Sanctum quorum remisseris peccata remittuntur eis & quorum retinueris retenta sunt. Which me thinkes you should rather account to containe the essentiall forme of Priesthood then the former, both because they are Christs owne words, and ioyned with that ceremonie of laying on hands, which anciently denominated this whole action, and do expresse the worthiest and principallest part of your Commission, which the Apostle cals the Ministry of reconciliation, 2 Cor. 5. 18. 19. Then, because this office is not onely deputed to consecrate the Lords body, but also to preach & baptize (which in your Pontificall is wholly omitted) in a larger, and more conuenient forme, is added out of Saint Paul, 1 Cor. 4. 1. and be thou a faithfull dispenser of the word of God and of his holy Sacraments. In the name of the Father, &c.

As to that you adde, that we offer no sacrifice for the quicke and dead, and therefore well may be called Ministers, as all lay men are, but are no Priests. I haue met with sundry that pull this roape as strongly the other way, and affirme that because by the very forme of your ordination you are appointed Sacrificers for the quicke and dead, well may ye be Masse-Priests as ye are called, but Ministers of the New Testament, after S. Pauls phrase ye are none. For that office stands principally [Page] in preaching the word, whereof in your ordination there is no word said. And as little there is in Scrip [...]ure of your sacrifice, which makes Christ not to be a Priest after the order of Melchisedech, &c. with much more to this purpose. Where my defence for your Ministrie hath beene this, that the forme Receiue the holy Ghost, whose sinnes ye remit they are remitted, &c. doth sufficiently comprehend the authoritie of preaching the Gospell. Vse you the same equitie toward vs, and tell those hot spirits among you, that stand so much vpon formalities of words, that to be a dispenser of the word of God and his holy Sacraments, is all the dutie of Priesthood. And to you I adde further, that if you consider well the words of the Master of the Sentences which I vouched before, how that which is consecrated of the Priest is called a Sacrifice and oblation, because it is a memoriall and representation of the true sacrifice and holy offering made on the altar of the Crosse, Heb. 10. [...] and ioyne there to that of the Apostle, that by that one offering Christ hath perfected for euer them that are sanctified, and as he saith in another place, through that bloud of his Crosse reconciled vnto God all things whether in earth or in heauen; you shall perceiue, that we do offer sacrifice for the quick and dead, remembring, representing & mystically offering that sole Sacrifice for the quicke and dead, by the which all their fins are meritoriously expiated, and desiring that by the same, wee and all the Church may obtaine remission of sinnes, and all other benefits of Christs passion.

To the Epilogue therefore of this your last motiue, I say in short. Sith we haue no neede of Subdeaconship, more then the Churches in the Apostles times, & in truth those whom wee call Clerkes and Sextens performe what is necessarie in this behalfe. Sith we haue Canonicall Bishops, and lawfull succession. Sith we neither want due intention to depute men to Ecclesiasticall functions, nor matter or forme in giuing Priesthood; deriuing from no man or woman the authoritie of ordination, but from Christ the head of [Page] he Church; yee haue alleadged no sufficient cause, why we should not haue true Pastors, and consequently a true Church in England.

CHAP. XII.
Of the Conclusion. Master Waddesworths agonies and protestation, &c.

YEt by these (you say) and many other arguments, you were resolued in your vnderstanding, to the contrary. It may well be that your vnderstanding out of it owne heedlesse haste, as that of our first Parents while it was at the perfectest was induced into errour, by resoluing too soone out of seeming arguments, and granting too forward assent. For surely, these which you haue mentioned, could not conuince it, if it would haue taken the paines to examine them throughly, or had the patience to giue vnpartiall hearing to the motiues on the other side. Bu [...] as if you triumphed in your owne conquest, and captiuitie, you adde that which passeth yet all that hitherto you haue set downe, viz. That the Church of Rome was and is the onely true Church, because it alone is Ancient, Catholike, and Apostolike, hauing succession, vnitie, and visibilitie in all ages, and places. Is it onely ancient? To omit Hierusalem, are not that of Antioch, where the Disciples were first called Christians, and Alexandria, Ephesus, Corinth, and the rest mentioned in the Scriptures ancient also? and of Antioch ancienter then Rome. Is it Catholike and Apostolike onely? Doe not these and manie more hold the Catholike faith receiued from the Apostles, as well as the Church of Rome? For that it should be the Vniuersall Church, is all one as yee would say the part is the whole, one Citie the world. Hath it onely succession? where to set aside the inquirie of Doctrine, so manie Simoniacks, and intruders [Page] haue ruled, as about fiftie of your Popes together, were by your owne mens confession Apostaticall, rather then Apostolicall? Or Vnitie, where there haue beene thirtie Schismes, and one of them which endured fiftie yeares long, and at last grew into three heads, as if they would share among them the triple Crowne? And as for diffentions in Doctrine, I remit you to Master Doctor Halls peace of Rome, wherein hee scores aboue three hundred mentioned in Bellarmine alone; aboue threescore in one onely head of Penance out of Nauarrus. As to that addition, in all ages and places▪ I know not what to make of it, nor wher [...]o to refer it. Consider, I beseech you, with your wonted moderation what you say, for sure vnlesse you were begu [...]led, I had almost said bewitched, you could neuer haue resolued to beleeue and professe, that which all the world knowes to be as false, I had (welnigh) said as God is true, touching the extent of the Romish Church to all ages and places?

Concerning the agonies you passed, I will say onely thus much, if being resolued though erroniously that was truth, you were withholden from professing it with worldly respects, you did well to breake through them all. But if besides these, there were doubt of the contrarie (as me thinks needes must be) vnlesse you could satisfie your selfe touching those many and knowne exceptions against the Court of Rome, which you could not be ignorant of) take heede, lest the rest insuing these agonies were not like Sampsons sleeping on Dal [...]lahs knees, while the locks of his strength were shauen, whereupon (the Lord departing from him) he was taken by the Philistims, had his eyes put out, and was made to grinde in the prison. But I doe not despaire, but your former resolutions shall grow againe. And as I doe beleeue your religious asseueration, that for very feare of damnation you forsooke vs (which makes mee to haue the better hope and opinion of you, for that I see you doe so seriously minde that which is the end of our whole [Page] life;) so I desire from my heart the good hope of saluation you haue in your present way may be as happie, as your feare I am perswaded was causelesse.

For my part, I call God to record against mine owne soule, that both before my going into Italie, and since, I haue still endeauoured to finde and follow the truth in the points controuerted betweene vs, without any earthly respect in the world. Neither wanted I faire opportunitie had I seene it on that side, easily, and with hope of good entertainment to haue adioyned my selfe to the Church of Rome, after your example. But (to vse your words) as I shall answere at the dreadfull day of iudgement, I neuer saw, heard, or read any thing, which did conuince me: nay, which did not finally confirme me daily more and more, in the perswasion, that in these differences it rests on our part. Wherein I haue not followed humane coniectures from forraine and outward things (as by your leaue mee thinkes you doe in these your motiues, whereby I protest to you in the sight of God, I am also much comforted and assured in the possession of the truth) but the vndoubted voice of God in his word, which is more to my conscience then a thousand Topicall Arguments. In regard whereof I am no lesse assured, that if I should forsake it I should be renounced by our Sauiour, before God and his Angels, then in the holding it be acknowledged and saued; which makes me resolue, not onely for no hope if it were of 10000. worlds, but by the gracious assistance of God, without whom I know I am able to doe nothing, for no terrour or torment euer to become a Papist.

You see what a large distance there is betweene vs in opinion. Yet for my part, I doe not take vpon me to foreiudge you, or anie other that doth not with an euill minde and selfe condemning conscience onely to maintaine a faction, differ from that which I am perswaded is the right. I account we hold one and the same faith in our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ, and by him in the blessed Trinitie. To his iudgement we stand or fall. Incomparably more and [Page] of more importance are those things wherein wee agree; then those wherin we dissent. Let vs follow therefore the things of peace, and of mutuall edification. If any be otherwise minded then he ought, God shall reueale that also to him. If any be weake or fallen, God is able to rai [...]e him vp. And of you good M. Waddesworth, and the rest of my Masters and Brethren of that side, one thing I would againe desire, that according to the Aposiles profession of himselfe, you would forbeare to be Lords ouer our Faith, nor straightway condemne of heresie,2 Cor. 8. 24. our ignorance or lacke of perswasion concerning such things as wee cannot perceiue to be founded in holy Scripture. Enioy your owne opinions; but make them not Articles of our Faith: the analogie whereof is broken as well by addition as subtraction. And this selfe same equitie we desire to find in positiue Lawes, Orders, and Ceremonies. Wherein as euerie Church hath full right to prescribe that which is decent and to edification, and to reforme abuse; so those that are members of each are to follow what is enioyned, till by the same authoritie it be reuersed.

And now to close vp this Account of yours, whereof you would haue Doctor Hall and me to be as it were examiners and Auditors. Whether it be perfect and allowable or no, looke you to it. I haue here told you mine opinion of it, as directly, plainely, and freely as I can; and as you required fully, if not tediously. I list not to contend with you about it. Satisfie your owne conscience, and our common Lord and Master, and you shall easily satisfie me. Once yet by my aduice review it, and cast it ouer againe. And if in the particulars you finde you haue taken manie nullities for signifying numbers, manie smaller signifiers for greater▪ correct the totall. If you finde namely that out of desire of Vnitie, and dislike of contention, you haue apprehended our diuersities to be more then they are: conceiued a necessitie of an externall infallible Iudge, where there was none: attributed the priuiledge of the Church properly called, to that [Page] which is visible and mixt. If you finde the reformed Churches more charitable, the proper note of Chists sheepe: The Roman faction more fraudulent, and that by publike counsell, and of politicke purpose, in framing not onely all later writers, but some ancient, yea the holy Scriptures for their aduantage: If you finde you haue mistaken the Protestants doctrine touching inuisibilitie, your own also touching vniformitie in matters of Faith: If you haue beene misinformed and too ha [...]ie, of credit touching the imputations laid to the beginners of reformation: For as touching the want of Succession and the fabulous Ordination at the Nags head, I hope you will not be stiffe, and persist in your errour, but confesse and condemne it in your selfe: If (as I began to say) you finde these things to be thus; giue glorie to God, that hath heard your praier, entreating direction in his holy truth; and withhold not that truth of his in vnrighteousnesse. Vnto him that is able to restore and establish you, yea to consummate and perfect you according to his almightie power and vnspeakeable goodnesse, toward his elect in Christ Iesus, I doe from my heart commend you: and rest you,

Your very louing brother in Christ Iesu, W. BEDELL.

FINIS.

Faults escaped.

[Page]

PAge 3. line 30. for them reade him. p. 6. l. 17. for [...] V. p. 7. l. 4. for come r. came. p. 33. l. 19. for whereby r. whereof. p. 49. l. 36. for them r. thee. p. 54. l. 35. for Court r. course. p. 55. l. 4. for [...] b E [...]l. r. [...]ate Ecclesiast. p. 63. l. 14. for bumorum r. humerum. p. 64. l. 7. for you r. thee. p. 65 l. 8. for To prooue r. [...]. To prooue. p. [...]8. l. 31. side, one r. side one, p. 82 l. 3. for These r. Those. p. 83. l 1. for to all r. to take all. p. 85. l. 36. for report r. reports. p. 87. l. 24. for adiure r. abiure. p. 90. l. 32. for word r. sword. p. 97. l. 15. for the state r. that State. l. 3. for Gratian, neither r. Gratian neither, ibid. l. 1. for force r. farce. p. 103. l. 32. for sernone r. ser [...]. p. 108. l. 1. for [...] For. r. [...] hi [...]. For. p. 109. l. 13. for Bishops r. Bishop. p. 112. l. 4. for greatest shewes, r. greatest, shewes another. p. 114 l. 16. for iust or r. iuster. ibid. l. 13. for maechis r. maechiae. p. 116. l. 13. [...] But the r. But that, ibid. l. [...]26. for Such. r. [...]. Such. p. 11 [...]. l. 72. for whererein-frequent r. wherein-frequent. p. 119. l. for Com. 1. r. Cou [...]. 1. p. 120. l. 13. for grosser, yet r. grosser yet, ibid. l. 19. for and in this r and this. p. 130. l. 10. for affaires, in Italy r. affaires in Italy, p. 135. l. 1. for a ubiects r. assubiect. p. 147. l. 22. for both where r. where both p. 148. l. 19. for Letany r. Litany. p. 151. l. 33. for Gospell r. Gospel p. 154. l. 9. for primaro r. primaero.

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Title statement

The copies of certaine letters vvhich haue passed betweene Spaine and England in matter of religion Concerning the generall motiues to the Romane obedience. Betweene Master Iames Wadesworth, a late pensioner of the holy Inquisition in Siuill, and W. Bedell a minister of the Gospell of Iesus Christ in Suffolke.

Wadsworth, James, 1572?-1623.

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1624

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Text Creation Partnership,

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2003-07 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1).

ID [DLPS]

A14614

ID [STC]

STC 24925

ID [STC]

ESTC S119341

ID [EEBO-CITATION]

99854548

ID [PROQUEST]

99854548

ID [VID]

19974

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(EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A14614)

Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 19974)

Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1044:14)

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— The copies of certaine letters vvhich haue passed betweene Spaine and England in matter of religion Concerning the generall motiues to the Romane obedience. Betweene Master Iames Wadesworth, a late pensioner of the holy Inquisition in Siuill, and W. Bedell a minister of the Gospell of Iesus Christ in Suffolke., Wadsworth, James, 1572?-1623., Bedell, William, 1571-1642. aut, Hall, Joseph, 1574-1656..

Extent

[12], 162, [2] p.

Printed by William Stansby for William Barret and Robert Milbourne,. London :: 1624.. (Edited by Bedell, who signs the dedication.) (Includes a letter from Joseph Hall.) (The first leaf is blank.) (With a final errata leaf.) (A variant (STC 24925a) has "Milburne" in imprint.) (Reproduction of the original in the Henry E. Huntington Library and Art Gallery.)

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