The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff. Translated out of French into English, by Iohn Brooke of Ashe Disputations chrestiennes. English Viret, Pierre, 1511-1571. 1579 Approx. 1521 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 314 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2012-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 2). A14461 STC 24776 ESTC S119193 99854400 99854400 19820

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Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 2, no. A14461) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 19820) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1645:6) The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff. Translated out of French into English, by Iohn Brooke of Ashe Disputations chrestiennes. English Viret, Pierre, 1511-1571. Calvin, Jean, 1509-1564. Brooke, John, d. 1582. [6], 200 leaves, 201-207, [1] p., 209-301, [3] leaves By Thomas East, Imprinted at London : 1579. A translation of: Disputations chrestiennes. Translator's dedication signed: Iohn Brooke. With an introduction by Jean Calvin. Parts two and three each have separate divisional title page; foliation and register are continuous. Includes indexes. Reproduction of the original in the Bodleian Library. Frontispiece portrait of author added; some print faded and show-through.

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PETRVS VIRETVS. oval portrait of Pierre (or Peter) Viret in a decorated rectangular frame

THE Chriſtian diſputations, BY MASTER PETER VIRET.

Deuided into three partes, Dialogue wiſe: Set out with ſuch grace, that it cannot be, but that a man ſhall take greate pleaſure in the reading thereoff.

Tranſlated out of French into English, by Iohn Brooke of Aſhe.

Math. vij. d. 21.

Not euery one that ſaith vnto me Lorde, Lorde, ſhall enter into the kingdome of Heauen: but he that doth my fathers will which is in heauen.

MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR Ē VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE printer's device of Thomas East, of a black horse standing on a wreath (McKerrow 206)

¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas Eaſt. 1579.

To the moſt Reuerent Father in God EDMVND by the permiſsion of God Archbiſhop of Caunterbury, Primate and Metrapolitan of England: Iohn Brooke wiſheth in this life proſperitie, and eternall felicitie in Chriſt our Sauiour.

REading for mine owne priuate exerciſe and ſtudies, the worthie worke of Maſter Peter Viret, entituled, The Chriſtian diſputations (right Reuerent Father) the ſweete entrie into the ſame, with ſuch pleaſant allurementes of comfortable matter, ſo drewe and tolled me forwade, as vnnethes I coulde ceaſe, vntill I had cleane diſcourſed and gone thorowe the whole worke. Which hauing once accompliſhed, and due conſideration therevppon had, according to my ſlender capacitie, I thought I coulde not beſtowe my time in any thing more worthy gratefull acceptaunce, then in publyſhing and ſetting foorth the ſame, that others might bee made pertakers of my comfortable delights, and delightfull comforts takē in reading hereoff. Not meaning like a chorle, alone to deuoure ſuch a rich banket, furniſhed with ſo greate a number of Iunkets and delicate diſhes, but to inuite thervnto (according to the intent of mine Author, a company worthy ſuch a feaſt, which being firſt prepared and dreſſed very cunningly after the French faſhion, I haue, for the great good will and zeale owe vnto my natiue Countrie, and for their better taſte, tranſlated and ſet foorth the ſame, after the Engliſh manner: wherein my ſmall vnlearned ſkill deſirous of ſure ſupportacion and good defence, craueth your grace as chiefe to giue me credite and countenaunce, againſt the byting ſting of Zoilous perſons & hereticall Papiſts, whoſe ſtomacks may in no wiſe digeſt or abide the good & wholeſome dyet in this feaſt prepared, whoſe vnſauorie taſtes, as I ſeeke not to content, ſo I feare not to offende. Truſting your grace will accept this my bolde enterpriſe as proceeding of heartie good will towards you, and earneſt loue borne vnto my countrie, preferring my zealous intent, and the Godlineſſe of the matter vnto the vnworthineſſe and ſlender skill ſhewed in the tranſlation. As I ſhall dayly pray vnto Almightie God, to gouerne and direct your grace, in all your affaires, by his holy ſpirite, remayning euer.

Your graces bounden during life: Iohn Brooke.
Iohn Caluyn vnto the Readers.

THE loue of God our Father, and the grace of our Lorde Ieſus Chriſt, be giuen to you, and multiplyed from day to day, thorowe the communion of the holy Ghoſt. There is an auncient Poet which ſaith, that he which delyteth and profiteth altogether in his writings, hath gained the price and fauour towardes all men. The ſame is ſpoken bicauſe of the diuerſitie of natures. It is very true, that the onely doctrine, wherein we knowe it to be good and profitable, ought to ſuffice vs, for to incitate and prouoke vs to reade willingly a booke, to giue and beſtowe thereon all our ſtudie, to loue and ſet by it, and finally to take pleaſure in it. But there are a great many, and well neere the moſt parte, which will be a greate deale better pleaſed, that one ſhould teach thē after a gentle & pleaſant faſhion, then otherwiſe: In ſuch ſort, that as in recreating themſelues, they may profite & receiue inſtruction, liuen then as thoſe which occupie themſelues to make bookes of paſtime, vaine and friuolous, & which cauſe the world to reade them, are to bee vituperated and deſpiſed although they haue no corruption in them: So on the other ſide, thoſe which haue the grace, ſo to teach that they doe both delight and profite the Readers thorowe their pleaſant ſtile, are double to be prayſed. And in very deede that is a vertue & a gift which is not in al men. Yea, often times the wiſeſt cannot atteine vnto it. And which is more do make themſelues to be laughed at in deſning that which is not giuen vnto them. For a man which deſireth to vſe mery conceits and ieſts, ought to beware of two vices. The one is, that he do nothing of compulſion, or laugh ouer much, as there are a great many which haue cold laughters, the which do ſeeme as though they were pulled out of their throat by force. The other is, not to vſe baudy & ſilthy talk, the which is called in Latine ſcurrilitas, in our language pleaſant ieſtes.

But to keepe the meane, that is to know how to ſpeak effectually and with a good grace, ſo for to recreate that there be nothing ſpoken fooliſhly, at all aduentures, or vncomely, which is no common vertue. I doe ſpeake this by reaſon of theſe preſent Dialogues, out of which a man may ſo gather good inſtruction, and yet notwithſtanding he ſhall haue occaſion to laugh. For the matter of it ſelfe is very pleaſant: And is ſet out with ſuch grace, that it cannot be but that a man ſhall take greate pleaſure in the reading thereoff. Our brother and companion in the worke of the Lord Ieſus, Peter Viret, who is the Author, hath by nature the vertue which I ſaide to be requiſite in that man which will medle himſelfe therein. It is vertue true that as in all other workes he giueth himſelfe, vnto a better ſtudie and of greater waight: So in theſe Dialogues his principall intent is not to delight the eares. And in verie deede, that ſhoulde be but a ſmall labour, and a paine euill be ſtowed of a man of ſuch witte and knowledge. Furthermore, beſides the giftes that he hath of God, he is called vnto a more higher calling. But foraſmuch as the matter that he hath taken in hand to entreate off, ſheweth that he teacheth by order of paſtime and merrie ieſtes, he pretendeth notwithſtanding the right doctrine, as the true marke to ſhoote at, mingling with the ſame, ſome merrie conceites as a companion therewith all. Yea in ſuch ſort that this booke is a ſuffient witnes, that be hath a ſinguler dextentie to doe it, yea euen as much as he will himſelfe: that is to ſay, as much as is needefull or conuenient. I doe knowe that it is a daungerous thing and that no man ought at the firſt ſight to allowe a booke.

But I feare not to haue any rebuke of good men, & of ſuch as are of ſounde Iudgement, to haue commended the reading of that booke, as a booke in which the time ſhalbe wel beſtowed. I neede not to bring witnes, nor to ſpeake among thoſe which know the man, This onely knowledge will ſuffice for to aſ ure them that they cannot ſay e to ſtay themſelues vpon it. But bicauſe that it may bee that ſome for want of aduertiſement, will make none accompt, to proue what it is: I haue partly teſtified what it is, for to giue encouragement vnto thoſe which wil beleeue me, & to ſtir them forwarde to ſee them, vntill ſuch time as they may Iudge of themſelues. Not that I doe preſume ſo much as to attribute vnto my ſelfe the Iudgement aboue the workes of others, for to pronounce them as for authoritie: or to bring all the Readers vnto mine opinion or aduiſe. Yet neuertheleſſe bicauſe that I thinke and am altogether perſwaded, that many will not refuſe to ſtaye and content themſelues to that, that I affirme vnto them: I am conſtrayned for the profite of them to ſpeake my minde. Although it is not now needeful to ſet foorth at large all the profite that may be gathered, and the pleaſure that may bee taken therein. This onely I can certifie, that all thoſe which ſhall haue the patience to continewe the reading ouer it, will not repent themſelues to be ſo well occupied.

There is one onely point, which I knowe, which might diminiſh the grace of the booke towards ſome men: That is, that it ſhoulde ſeeme good that the matters of the Chriſtia tie ought to be intreated off with a grauitie correſpondent to their dignitie and worthineſſe.

And therefore it is not meete to mingle them with matters of myrth, conſidering that there is daunger, that in ſo doing wee ſhoulde turne them into laughing. Chiefely at this preſent time, in whiche impyetie ouerfloweth more then euer ſithence the beginning of the Chriſtian Church: Or at the leaſt wiſe, it is more openly vncouered. To the ende that none for being preuented with that reaſon, bee not out of taſt with the reading. It is to be noted, that one may diſpute of the matters of the Chriſtianitie two wayes: Firſt in rebuking the fooliſh ſuperſticions, which are riſen among the Chriſtians vnder colour of Religion, the which notwithſtanding are not but corruptions of the ſame, for to deſtroy and ouerthrowe it. Secondly, in declaring the ſimple and pure veritie according as it is reuealed vnto vs of GOD by his holy worde. As touching the ſeconde kinde, it is moſt certeine that aſſoone as wee haue opened our mouthes for to ſpeake of GOD, no merrie conceite or ieſt ought to enter in our matter: But wee ought in all that we ſay and ſpeake, declare what reuerence we doe beare vnto his Maieſtie, not pronouncing one worde but in feare and humilytie. But in diſiphering and diſcloſing the ſuperſtitions & follyes with which the poore worlde hath beene blinded in before time, he could not choſe in ſpeaking of matters ſo ridiculous but to laugh with open mouth. It is moſt true that there is alſo good occaſion to weepe and lament: Foraſmuch as it is not a ſport or ieſt that the glory of GOD, and his eternall veritie, hauing beene ſo darkened, the which ought to bee had in vs in a ſinguler recommendation, hath beene ſo aboliſhed thorow infinit lyes: that ſo many poore ſoules haue beene ledde of Sathan into ruyne and dampnation.

But the one muſt not let the other, that 〈◊〉 and taking ſuch ſorrowe as we ought to haue, to bring vs againe in remembrance, how God hath beene ſo blaſphemed: hauing alſo pitie and compaſsion of the calamitie wherein the worlde hath beene ſo long time, and is yet at this preſent. Yet neuertheles in reherſing of ſuch fooliſh dreames and fonde bables, we vſe ſuch mocketies as they doe merite and deſerue. When we doe ſo, it ſhalbe after the example of the Prophets: who interpreting of the pure veritie of God, doe ſpeake with a maieſtie, which ought to make all the worlde to tremble: But in blaming the dreams of the Idolaters do make it no doubt to vſe ſcoffings and laughings, for to declare howe ridiculous they are. Although the Prophets are one & we an other. For aſmuch as we ſpeake not in the name of God as they, to the end that all that which we pronounce ſhoulde be receiued as a reuelation come from Heauen: It is lawefull for vs to vſe a baſer ſtile. But I haue alleaged this compariſon onely for to declare, that it is not to giue any occaſion vnto the Luci aniſts and Epicures and other contemners of God, to ſpeake euill of the Chriſtian religion, or to haue it in diſdaine, when they ſhal mocke of the corruptions of the ſame.

Thomas Singleton to the Reader. OVR Author (gentle Reader) here, of franke and free good heart: A Cheſt of treaſures hath vnlockt, whereoff thou maiſt take part. With trauaile great he hath it brought, from farre and forraine ſoyle: Which thou, and many may enioye, at home with eaſie toyle. Stand backe, hard harted Heriticke, here is for thee no ware: Eake ſtubborne Papiſt, go thou by, thou haſt herein no ſhare. Whom blinde erronious fancies leade, the truth that thou deſpiſe: Whom wilfull and groſe ignorance, hath cloſed vp thine eyes. Theſe rich and precious Ornaments, and Iewels high of price: For Godly, Zealous, Vertuous, beene, that hate both ſinne and vice. A milde and gentle friendly Brooke, hath brought the ſame to ſhore, Then (Reader) take it thankefully, he craues of thee no more. FINIS.
The Preface.

IT is ſayd in a common prouerbe: he which hath ſuffered nothing, knoweth not what euill A prouerbe. is. And therefore it is very hard, that he which neuer hath ſuffered any euill, can haue ſuch pittie and compaſſion of the captiues and miſerable, as he which hath tryed and proued great miſeries and néede, and which hath bene exerciſed in them, and hath abidden many aduerſities and troubles. For he that knoweth not what pouertie is, doth not much thincke vppon the neceſſities of the poore, nor he cannot ſo well know in what languer and miſery they doe lyue. When the ryche man hath hys féete well ſhodde, and that hée is well cladded and pompeouſly apparelled, he ſitteth at the table, he hath of delicate meate great aboundaunce, amongeſt which he banketeth and maketh greate cheere, he thincketh not much vpon Lazarus, who lyeth at his gate full of botches and ſores, naked, Luc. 16. l. 20. and hauing no nouriſhment. He doth not greatly paſſe whether he be ſhodde or vnſhodde, naked or cladde, whether he be colde or warme, whether he haue meate & drinke or not. Sith that he is at his eaſe, all others are ſo, and he careth not for them. Wherefore I doubt not but that the Lorde will ſ nde many aduerſities and afflictions vnto his ſeruaunts in this world, and that he will trye them The cauſe of y temptation to the elect. ſo many wayes, that euery day we ſhall feele and proue them, to that ende, that they hauing proued in themſelues the pooreneſſe and miſeryes that others maye ſuffer, they doe learne the better howe to beare it, and to haue more greater pittie and compaſſion, and to bee the readyer to ayde and ſuccour them. And without ſéeking to farre the examples of the Patriarkes and Prophets: As Abraham Iſaac, Iacob, Ioſeph, Moſes, Dauid, and other lyke, whiche haue bene tryed wyth ſo many tribulations. Let vs onely conſider how the Lorde Ieſus Chriſt woulde make his two Apoſtles, Sainct Peter and Sainct Paule to humble themſelues before that he dyd committe hys Church vnto them, and after that, they had the charge giuen them. Hée Heb. 4. d. 15. whiche was in all pointes tempted, like as wée are: but yet wythout ſinne, to the ende that wée ſhoulde not doubt, but that hée knoweth our infirmities, and that hée can haue compaſſion of them, hath ſuffered Peter to fall, that The fall of Peter. Mat. 26. g. 25. Luc 22. l. 60 by his fall, hée may learne to knowe himſelfe, and the nature of all other poore ſinners inuironed with mannes infirmitie, for to comfort and confirme them, after that hée ſhall ariſe agayne. Alſo hée ſuffered Saul to erre a longe The errour of Saul. Act. 7. 8. 9 time, before hée called him to the light of the Goſpell, & to bring him in yt right way, to the ende that after yt he ſhould departe from the darke clowdes of ignoraunce, ſhoulde haue more greater pittie and compaſſion of the poore blinde and ignoraunt, and that hée ſhoulde not diſpaire incontinent of the health and ſaluation of the rebells and perſecutors. Alſo we cannot denie, that there is any man liuing vpon the earth, but that hée hath bene plunged ouer The darkneſſe of the vvorld. Exo. 10. l. 22. the head in the darkeneſſe of errour and ignoraunce, the which were more thicker vppon all the lande, then euer they were in Aegypt. And woulde to GOD, that thoſe which are yet couered in Aegypt, may at the leaſt wiſe feele and perceiue as the Aegyptians dyd theirs, and that they would deſire with ſuch affection to be deliuered. But this is the miſchiefe that the Aegyptians which are at this preſent time cannot acknowledge what they are, The Aegyptians at this preſent time. but woulde be taken and accompted for the true Iſraelites. And notwithſtanding that they haue the darkeneſſe palpable amonge them, yet they glory and bragge themſelues of the light, and doe promiſe it vnto others, by y which they ſhall haue néede to hée illuminated themſelues. Wherfore ſo much the more ought we to haue yt greater compaſſion on them, as they haue the leſſe knowledge of the euil & daūger wherein they are. Thoſe then vnto whome the Lorde hath opened their eyes, and that he hath brought them from the enebrous Aegypt, all true Iſraelites which are in the land of Goſan, béeinge ſeperated from thoſe horrible darkeneſſe, ought to trauayle wyth Moſes that good ſeruaunt of God, not onely to drawe the Iſraelites out of the lande of Aegypt, but alſo if it be poſſible to conuert the Aegyptians into Iſraelits, praying the LORD to driue awaye all darkeneſſe, by the light of his woorde, and the cléereneſſe of his comming. For if we will not lye agaynſt our owne conſcience, who can denye but that all the worlde is a very Aegypt, and all the Chriſtianitie a very Babilon, full of all confuſion? For hée that will well ponder and Aegypt and Babilon. marke the language that the Chriſtians doe ſpeake, & the diuerſities of opinions which are amonge them, but that he ſhall be conſtrained to ſay, that Babilon is not Babilon, in compariſon of this. The one ſaith white, the other bcack. That which the one calleth day, one other calleth it night. That which is the light vnto the one, is darkeneſſe to the other. That which the one findeth ſwéete, the other iudgeeth it ſowre. That which is Ieſus Chriſt, truth, and Paradiſe to the one, is Antechriſt, lyinge and hell to the other. What is then to be done in this great varietie and contrarietie of opinions? What ought the poore ignoraunt people thinck of it? In what trouble and perplexitie ought their poore conſciences to be in, when they ſée the one to denie that which an other affirmeth? What opinion ought they rather follow? and of what ſide can their poore conſciences finde moſt reſt? It is moſt certeine, that there is but one veritie, & that in ſuch varietie and contrarietie of opinions and One onely veritie. ſentences, there cannot be but one true, and it may well hée that they are all falſe, if man followe any other guide, then Gods onely veritie. What then is he that is of ſo ſure a iudgement, which can ſurely iudge what is the beſt, the moſt certaynteſt and infallible veritie? There is none which can better iudge of the Arte, then the woorkeman: of a matter, then he which hath ſome knowledge and experience. If we will then finde any reſt in our conſciences, and obteyne and get a good iudgement, for to diſcerne in that diuerſitie of doctrine, what is the beſt and moſte certeinteſt, and what is the truth that declareth all the other The meanes for to finde out the truth. to be lyinges, we muſt gyue our ſelues to the meanes by which we may atteine therevnto. But it is harde to finde, for it muſt be ſearched for out of all creatures, and yet neuertheleſſe by the creatures. And therefore foraſmuch as the thing ſéemeth to be harde, and that I ſée many poore conſciences very much troubled and almoſte in diſpaire, not knowing on which ſide to tourne themſelues, ſo much is the thinge more worthy of pittie and compaſſion. And for bicauſe that I my ſelfe haue bene longe ynough ſicke in that ſame bedde, and haue experimented and proued howe daungerous that euilt is, and what dolour and torment it bringeth vnto the man that feareth God, and which is afraide to offend hym, for that cauſe am I the more moued to ayde and ſuccour thoſe which are yet holden faſt in the ſame, and which cannot in the ende finde remedy. Not that I dare of 〈◊〉 ſelfe to promiſe any great thing, ſith that I am nothinge but foraſmuch as the common prouerbe gyueth vnto Prouerbe. The foole counſaileth the vviſe me boldeneſſe, which ſayth: The foole co •• ſayleth the wyſe. To promiſe remedy vnto a diſeaſe ſo harde and incurable, I dare not of my ſelfe, and I will not do as the Sape etiam eſt holitor valde opportuna locutus. venturous and hardie Emperickes doe, which promyſe helpe vnto all diſeaſes, howe incurable ſo euer they hée: and thoſe which are moſt ignoraunt, doe moſte aſſure it. But I dare promiſe to declare, that the diſeaſe is not ſo harde to be cured as it is daungerous, if one prouyde not remedy in time, and wythout delaying the meanes whileſt it is poſſible: And that the difficultneſſe that is in it doe not procéede but of vs, whiche haue the remedye in our handes, if we knowe howe to vſe it. And although that I nor no man that is in the worlde, cannot, of himſelfe remedy it, yet neuertheleſſe I truſt throughe the helpe and aide of hym which hath it in hys power, and which doth comfort thoſe whome it pleaſeth hym, that I wyll declare and ſhewe vnto thoſe which haue néede, ſome redreſſe to atteyne vnto it. For although that I knowe not very much, and haue not ſéene much, yet neuertheleſſe I can not deny but that the Lord, who through his grace and mercy hath drawen mée from thoſe troubles and anguiſhes, and from darkeneſſe, vnto the knowledge of the truth, hath alſo made me prone many thinges, of which I maye helpe my poore bretheren, whome I can not deſpyſe without dooinge vnto them iniurye and wronge, and to ſhewe that I haue forgotten the eſtate in which I haue bene, and that I am vnthanckefull towardes Gods liberalitie and goodneſſe, who immediatlye from my youth, béeing yet at the ſchooles, hath drawen me from that labarinth of errour, before that I was to much plunged in that Babilonical Antechriſt, and receyued the marke of the beaſt. Neuertheleſſe notwithſtanding that it hath pleaſed God, that that carecter and marke was not printed in my forehead (to the which yet neuertheleſſe A. prepared my ſelfe, thincking yt it was the right waye of ſaluation, if the Lorde had not had pittie and compaſſion, on mée, who called mee vnto a better vocation) yet I cannot therefore denie, but that I haue bene ſufficiently plunged and very déepe in that whore of Babilon, aſwell as others. Although I haue not bene none of the gouernours and chiefeſt Eurgeſſes and Citizens of the ſame, yet I haue bene of the meaner ſort & prepared for to bring foorth the fruites of confuſion, as the others dyd, and ſo much the more that by Nature I was more giuen vnto religion, the which yet neuertheleſſe I knewe not, following in ſteede thereoff all ſuperſtition. Wherefore, ſithens that the Lord hath taken mée out, I can not yet forget thoſe that are detayned and kept therein. And in remembring and conſidering the trayne of the newe Babilon, it maketh me ſo remember a lawe and cuſtome that The lavve of the Babilonians for the diſeaſed, Herodo, It. 1. the auncient Babilonians had, the which is not altogether to be deſpiſed nor vnworthy to be remembred. Before that Phiſicke was yet brought into any perfect Aite, and that there was not cunninge Phiſitions for to practiſe it, they dyd ſet downe a lawe, by which they ordeyned, that thoſe which did begin to be ſicke and diſeaſed, ought to go vnto thoſe, which ſometime haue bene ſicke with the ſame diſeaſe, for to haue their aduice & counſaile, and for to learne by them the remedy which they vſed, if they had proued any good, and which were wel to be found. And to the ende that that law ſhould be the better kept, they vſed to bring thoſe that were ſicke and diſeaſed vnto the ſtréets and open places: and thoſe which ſometime had bene ſicke, were bounde by the lawe to viſite them, and to teach vnto euery one of them the remedy by the which they were healed. If then the Babilonians were ſo carefull of the ſicke and diſeaſed: let vs thincke what reproche we ſhall haue of God, if after that hée hath made vs féele his grace, and hath giuen vnto vs the remedy, not onely againſt all the diſeaſes both of body and ſoule, but alſo againſt the corporall and ſpirituall deathe, we haue no pittie and compaſſion on our bretheren which are yet in the bedde of deathe, and if we doe not ſhowe vnto them the remedye that we haue learned of GOD, and that we doe not bringe them vnto the highe and ſouereigne Phiſition IESUS CHRIST? His law and commaundement ought more to vrge vs then that of the Babilonians. If he willed and commaunded that he that ſhall finde the Ore or the Aſſe of his neighbour going aſtray, yea of his enemy, to bring them to him againe: or Bxo. 23. 〈◊〉 if he be fallen into a dyke, or ſinke vnder his burthen to helpe him out and vp againe, do we thinke that he hath not yet more care of man then of a beaſt? of the ſoule more then of the body. Doth he not giue vs ſufficiētly to vnderſtand by that commaundement, in what recommendacion we ought to haue our neighbours, and what care we ought to take of their ſoules and health, ſith that he bindeth vs by his commaundement to take the care and charge of his Aſſe? I then conſidering the great darkeneſſe, abuſes, and errours, which haue occupyed and filled all the Chriſtianitie, ſéeing ſo many ſcrupulous, doubtfull and troubled conſciences, and ſo many diſeaſes, of which euery ſtréete, place and all the worlde is full, would not deſpiſe them, without teaching them ſome remedy, for to comfort them, at the leaſt a lyttle, if I cannot doe much, chiefly for that I haue bene required of many good men which doe feare God.

It is very true, that one ſhall finde men inough, which will promiſe remedyes for ſuch diſeaſes, but he ſhall not finde many which haue well proued and tryed that which they teach vnto others. For many men ſometime wyll meddle or take vppon them to heale others, which haue more néede of a medicine, then thoſe vnto whome they would giue it, and there are more Phiſicions then diſeaſes. And although I will not glorye nor boaſte my ſelfe to be very able and cunning in that matter, yet neuertheleſſe I will not hyde that lyttle talent which the LORDE hath giuen vnto mée. I am not ignorant, but that the Lord hath rayſed vp in theſe our dayes, learned men which haue already very well declared and opened thoſe obſcure and darke places, of which ſo many poore conſciences are troubled, after whome I am not worthy to carry their bookes, but doe eſtéeme it a greate benefite of GOD to haue bene their diſciple and ſcholler, and by their meanes to haue vnderſtanded GODS truth, although that many bookes haue bene alreadye made and ſet foorth in our countrey by diuers learned, for to diſcouer the abuſes, and for to put agayne the woorde of GOD in his honour, according as our Sauiour IESUS CHRIST inſtituted it. Neuertheleſſe, I haue yet thought that my lyttle labour ſhall not be altogether vayne and vnprofitable towards a great many of my bretheren and countrimen, eſpecially towards ſome, for many cauſes. Firſt, bicauſe that the moſt parte of thoſe which haue written of diuinitie, haue heterto written in the Latine tougue, the whiche is not to be vnderſtood Latine bookes. of all men, and eſpecially of the poore ignoraunt people, which haue more néede of playne doctr e and conſolation. Wherefore it is good that ſuch matters which doe touch and conſerne our health and ſaluation be manifeſted and ſette foorth in all languages, to the ende that thoſe which do not vnderſtande the one, may be inſtructed by the other. For it is all one what language one ſpeaketh vnto vs, ſo that we vnderſtand him, and that we may be well inſtructed in the will of God, and in all things All languages good to God. neceſſary vnto our ſaluation. For God regardeth not the languages, but onely the thing to which all languages ought to ſerue. Then euen as thoſe who doe wryte in a language which is moſt common to euery Nation, and by which they may inſtruct and teach, not onely thoſe of their countrey, but alſo of ſtraunge countreys, are worthy of great prayſe: So I doe iudge them worthy to be blamed, and not worthy to be accounted for chriſtian men, to occupy themſelues ſo much to teach the moſt wiſeſt and beſt learned, and thoſe which are ſo farre ſeperated from vs, and that the poore ignoraunt, and thoſe of the houſe ſhould hée deſpiſed, and ſhould féele nor receiue any fruite. One might rightly rebuke and checke vs: Phiſition heale thy ſelfe: And that we doe not followe the example of Ieſus Chriſt and his Prophetes and Apoſtles, who haue Luc. 4. d. 23. alwayes taught thoſe with whome they had to doe, in a language that they coulde beſte vnderſtande. For that cauſe was gyuen vnto the Apoſtles the gyfte of tongues, for to preach vnto all people and Nations, knowing The gift of tongues. Act 2. 2. 1. that the language ought to ſerue to the matter, and not the matter to the language. Wherefore conſidering that ſome men doe write in Hebrewe, ſome in Greeke, ſome in Latin, others in Almayne and in Flemiſh, others in Italian and Spaniſh, I haue alſo written in a language, with which I am beſt acquainted and haue moſt familiaritie, French bookes according to my byrth and natiuitie: Although that the matters that I entreate off, ſhoulde haue a greater grace in the Latin tongue then in the French tongue, and ſhoulde be vnto me more aduauntage. For oftentimes, I haue the matter ready, that I néede not but to write them out of good Authours, where I néede not to trauaile to tranſlate the thinges in French the whiche is very harde and impoſſible, eſpecially vnto mée to ſette them out wyth ſuch grace, and to interprete them ſo natiuely as they ſound in their naturall language, Hebrewe, Greeke, or Latin. For although I bée a poore Oratour in Latin, I am not much better in French. Wherefore although I doe not ſpeake the language of Attica, nor well beautified & lyke a Retricion, but that it happeneth oftentimes that I doe fall into my rude ſpeache: Or if I wander aſtraye in Fraunce, and that I come agayne into the countrey, I doe thincke that the fauourable Reader wyll well beare wyth ſuch faultes, and eſpecially in the rymes and French verſes, which ſometyme I mingle in theſe Dialogues, following the example of the good Authours, which haue willingly kept this cuſtome, to tranſlate into verſe, after their owne language, that whiche they alledge of the Poets, which haue written it in an other language: The which I haue done ſometime, bycauſe that I put in the margentes thoſe Authours, by the which I helpe my ſelfe, for to diſcouer and vnhide better the abuſes and ſuperſtitions, to the ende that ſome men ſhoulde not thincke that I ſpeake of the ſpeakers of the Dialogues for the nonce, and wythout iuſt occaſion. If ther be in my verſes but little rime, it ſufficeth me ſo yt it haue ſome reaſon. For I do not make profeſſion of Poetry: & it ſufficeth me to tourne them groſly or plainely: Beſides that, that I am an euill Oratour, yet I am a worſe Poet. Yet neuertheleſſe I am fully certified that ſo many good mindes and wittes as Fraunce bringeth vp very able and experte, both in Poetry and French proſe, ſhall haue none occaſion to enuye mée, nor to rebuke or finde faulte with my Poetry. For they may very well iudge that I pretende not by my verſes to haue the crowne of Baye, and that I wyll not take from them their Science and name. Alſo I hope that thoſe vnto whome GOD hath gyuen more gyftes and grace to ſpeake, wyll conſider to beare with my rude ſtyle, as the Athenians, who were the cummingeſt in all Greece, both in doctrine and in language, haue not deſpiſed the doctrine and language of the Philoſopher, Anacharſis, Anacharſis. notwithſtandinge that hee was a Sythian and of a barbarous Nation. They muſt alſo conſider whiche knowe the greatneſſe of the countrey wherein I am, I haue ſometimes vſed expreſly ſome woordes which ſhall not bée receyued of thoſe which ſludye in the fineneſſe of the French tongue, but I doe the ſame, for to condiſcend to the rudeneſſe and capacitie of the moſt ignoraunt whiche better vnderſtande thoſe woordes taken from their language, then others that are more fine and eloquent. Furthermore, although that there are manye good men which haue already written of the matters of Religion in the French tongue wyth more hautye ſtyle and more el quent then I can, and of a more déeper and profounde knowledge. Yet neuertheleſſe I doe not thincke, that thoſe whiche knowe that Chriſtian ſimplicitie and modeſtie is, wyll neyther deſpyſe my language nor my doctrine, but that they wyll take it all Amos. 7. d. 13. in good parte, conſideringe that if Amos whiche was a ſhepeheard, and many other Prophetes of baſe condition, haue not vſed ſo high a ſtyle, nor haue ſpoken ſo profoundly and learnedly as that kingly Prophet Dauid, or Dauid. Eſay. that great Oratour Eſay, of the royall linage and brought vp in the court, they haue not therefore leaft off to bée Prophetes and to ſpeake through Gods ſpirite, and to profite very muche in hys Church, whoſe ſtyle they haue vſed. And althoughe that the Euangeliſles and The Apoſtolicall eloquence and humaine loqūence. Apoſtles haue not written in ſuch pompe of woordes, nor haue not ſo much trauayled after the language of Demoſthenes and Cicero, yet wee cannot denye but that they haue more profited to all mankinde, by theyr ude ſtile, then the others, by all their pompe of humayne eloquence wythout any compariſon. But if wée conſider Gods woorkes, wée ſhall knowe that the holye Ghoſt, althoughe that hée doe not reiect the eloquence, whych is one of his gyftes, yet neuertheleſſe hée delighteth himſelfe more in the ſimplicitie of language, for to declare better hys vertue and efficacie, to the ende that we doe not attribute vnto humayne eloquence that which apperteineth vnto hym.

I ſpeake this bicauſe of ſome delicate mo thes, and curious of language, which regarde not but the ſtile and Curious men of ſpeaches. the manner & phraſe of ſpeaking, without conſidering the ſentence, and that that one ſpeaketh, as though men doe write for the tongue, and for to learne onely, for to iangle and prattle as the Pyes and Iayes, not rather for to inſtruct the ſpirite, ſoule and the conſcience. They regarde but the flowers, and care not for the fruite: And which is worſe, one ſhall finde them of ſuch corrupt iudgementes, that they preferre the paynted flowers, before thoſe that growe naturally, thinckeing to beautifie their language, and to enrich the French tongue. GOD knoweth what a cuttinge and manglinge they make, and howe they mangle the Latine, ſo that they doe Manglers of Latine. ſpeake neither Latine nor French. But deſiring to auoide and not to vſe all that which they thincke to bée common, to the ende they might bée eſtéemed the greater Oratours, doe forge and inuent a newe language, and doe deſpiſe the good French woordes, for to ſteale awaye thoſe from ſtraunge tongues. That curioſitie and affection of language, is the cauſe that many delite rather to reade bookes, full of ſcoffinges, fables, lyes, and of blaſphemyes, then thoſe of diuinitie, or of ſome good diuines and holy men. And this vice is not onely in the French tongue, but alſo in yt Latine. For ther are ſome which haue ſo great feare to defile their golden tongue, and to embrew Theſe vvhich doe auoide the reading of dinine bookes. their goodly ſtile with the ſimplicitie & baſeneſſe of the Propheticall and Apoſtolicall language, that they had rather to defile their ſoules, vnderſtandinges and ſpirites, in fooliſhe curious bookes, or in the writinges of the Panims and Idolaters, then to reade in the holye Scriptures the which they dare not touch: Or if they deſire ſome Prouerbe. Velut Canis? Nilo. time to drincke of it, that is as the dogge doth at the floud Nilus. They doe but ſucke in the water haſtely, as though they were afrayde to touch it, and that there were in it Crocodiles. They wyll touch it as a Cat doth hotte coales. I doe not condemne the reading of good Authours and of Poets, Oratours and Philoſophers the which may ſerue vs to the glorie of God, if firſt of all we be well inſtructed in the Chriſtian religion. But I can not allowe, but greatly condempne thoſe whiche altogeather gyue themſelues vnto ſuche Authours, or to others a greate deale worſe, and make none accompte of the holy Bible and diuine bookes to which all other Sciences and diſciplines ought to ſerue, and to whiche they ought to be preferred. Shall we not iudge him a foole & All Artes and diſciplines the handmaides of holy bookes. out of his wyt, which will alwayes ſtaye in his Grammer, and in the principles and rules of the ſame, and deſpyſe the ſtudye of other liberall Artes, and of Philoſophie, and wyll in no wyſe meddle wyth them, nor exerciſe himſelfe in ſpeakinge nor yet in writinge, fearinge to forget and loſe thoſe rules and groundes of Grammer? Who wyll not iudge ſuch a man to bee madde, ſith that the Grammer, yea, the Rethoricke, (whatſoeuer prayſe that Cicero giueth vnto it.) And the Logicke alſo, are not but as handmaydens and ſeruauntes vnto other diſciplines, the whiche men doe learne for to ſerue vnto them? Wée doe nowe mocke the barberous ſchole maſters which wee haue had, which coulde reade vnto vs Doctrinall of Alexander. but doctrinall of Alexander, and doe holde vs therein all our lyfe time, wythout letting vs at any time taſte any good Authour, inſomuch that one ſhall neuer haue done, but the thing is alwayes to beginne agayne. Thoſe ſome vnto me not to differ much from them. For notwithſtanding that they doe reade better Authours, and that they doe exerciſe themſelues to ſpeake and wryte better. Yet Neuertheleſſe I eſteeme not all that which they doe, no more then the Grammer of Alexander, or as Greciſmus and Roiolis, and the Logicke of Tartaret, and of other Sophiſters, except they make all their ſkill and knowledge to the honour and glorye of GOD, and if they mynde it vnto anye other marke or ende. For otherwiſe whereto ſhall all their Eloquence vvithout the feare of God. ſcience and eloquence ſerue, but to the Panims and people without God? the which is more hurtfull and daungerous, then profitable to the common wealth, in hym which hath not the feare of God, and which is not well inſtructed in the Chriſtian doctrine. And when they haue ſtudyed all their lyfe time to beautifie and 〈◊〉 foorth theyr language, I thincke yet neuertheleſſe that a man ſhall not finde many amonge them, which can come vnto ſuch perfection, by the which they may approch ſo néere vnto Gicero, as that ſeditious Catiline, who was very eloquent. Cleero and Gariline. But when they doe ſurmount Demoſthenes, may not wee rightly ay that of them which Eſchines hath ſayd of him, comparing him vnto a flute, which hath but the beak of bil, Eſchines and Demoſtlienes. the which is vnprofitable, after that the necke is cut off? What is there alſo in theſe héere, but the tongue? The which oftentimes hurteth many, and profiteth fewe. Is not a poore labourer which knoweth his God, and Ieſus Chriſt his Sauiour, and which confeſſeth him in his rude The true ſcience and eloquence. language, and which honoureth him through his good life and conuerſation, to be preferred before all theſe greate Poets, Orators, and Philoſophers, who are altogether ignoraunt, and which doe ſerue but the fleſh, the world, and Sathan Prince of the ſame? Are not they great Aſſes and beaſtes in compariſon of him, and yet worſe? For the Oxe knoweth his Lord, and an Aſſe his Maſters ſtall, as ſayth the Prophet, the which thoſe here, which will bée Eſa. 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . 3. counted for true Iſraelits, Gods people, and Chriſtians, wil not acknowledge nor ſerue hym, dooing vnto him ſo much honour, as the Oxe & the Aſſe doe vnto their Maſters. How dare they eſteeme themſelues wyſe, beeing ignoraunt of the knowledge of God, the which onely is the true knowledge, for to bringe vs vnto euerlaſting bleſſedneſſe, in compariſon of which all other which are called ſciences, are but mennes opinions, errours, and lyinges, excepte they Iohn. 17. 23 haue this for a guyde. It is very harde to finde for ſuch men mediciues proper to heale them, and meate for to make them haue an appetite, ſith that they are ſo farre out of taſt with the bread of lyfe, and the heauenly Manna, Out of eaſt of ye bread of life. to the which they preferre the garlicke, onyons, the fleſh and fiſhes of Aegypt. For he that ſhall giue them ſuch meate as they deſire, ſhall but encreaſe their griefe the greater. And if the meate bée not as they woulde haue it, they will not taſt of it. Wherefore I leaue ſuch to bée handeled of thoſe which haue more cunninge then I, and which can better helpe their diſeaſe. There are others which differ but a little from theſe héere, and which care not ſo muche of the language, but they haue yet a greate vice common with the firſt: that is, that they delite not in reading any good matter, graue, and whiche toucheth Gods woorde, and the health of their ſoules, but Curious readers of foolish bookes. vnto worldly thinges delectable to the fleſh, pernicious and hurtfull to the ſpirite and conſcience. And therefore, although that many good men haue written in French very learnedly and in a good language, touching the matters of our Religion, yet neuertheleſſe that ſorte of people cannot applye themſelues to reade thoſe good bookes, and can take no taſte of them, bicauſe that their mouthe is not fitte for ſuch meate, and that they are to precious for them. For the doriſeraunt and ſweete flowers The ſvveet ſmellings vnto hogs. ſmell not ſo ſwéete in the hogges noſes, as the myre and durte. For that cauſe ſuche carnall men take more pleaſure and delite in the bookes that ſpeake their language. But the thinge is more deteſtable to women whiche delite to reade ookes of bawdry and whoredome. Vile and filthy bookes. For they vnderſtande them the better bycauſe they are of the earth: and doe ſpeake of earthlye matters, and cannot comprehende the celeſtiall language, bycauſe it is not naturall vnto them. Nowe ſuch bookes as they deſire are not wanting vnto them. For there are ynough of fooles bables throughout the worl e, which Fooles bables. doe ſerue but for ſeoffing and teſting, and which haue no other care, and applye their ſtudie but to pleaſe men, and to nouriſhe theyr vaine curioſitie, louinge better to ſpeake pleaſaunt thinges, then ſalutary, and to delyte the fleſhe and the eares, more then to edifie the conſcience. Yet thys was one of the cauſes whiche moued me to write and procéede after an other manner, then thoſe whiche haue written before mée. For I conſider that many doe leaue off to reade them, not onely Good books deſpiſed & forbidden. bicauſe it is forbidden in many Countreys, kingedomes, and Segmories, to reade good bookes whiche ſpeake of GOD, ſuffering yet neuertheleſſe the others, which doe induce but to diſhonour and blaſphemye. But alſo bicauſe, that although that it bée permitted vnto many to reade them, yet neuertheleſſe they doe make none account of them, bycauſe that eyther they ſéeme vnto them very obſcure and ſo wayghtye that they cannot well vnderſtande them: or the tyme to longe, and take no pleaſure to reade bookes whiche haue not ſome merrye conceytes and delites, for to make them paſtyme. For they are yet to carnall, and finde no paſtime in thoſe bookes whiche ſpeake but of GOD, and of the health of the Soule, if there bée nothing for the fleſhe, the which they woulde onely keepe. There is no doubte, but that malady or dyſeaſe is very perillous, and that ſuche vicious and corrupt Natures, doe very muche diſpleaſe GOD, ſith that they haue ſo lyttle reuerence of him, and hys woorde, and that they preferre the poyſon before the good meate.

Neuertheleſſe bycauſe that amongeſt ſuche one maye yet finde ſome whiche are not altogeather peruerſe and malicyous, but that they haue yet ſome ſeede of the feare of the LORDE in them, mée thinckes that wee muſte not altogeather dyſpayre and abanoon them, as ſicke folke that are incurable, but that we muſt yet proue to winne them if it bee poſſible, and to tranſfigure and chaunge them into al formes and ſhapes, for to induce them to reade the holy Scriptures, and to giue vnto them ſome taſt. For if we can conuert into good vſes the meanes, by the which the Diuell gyueth himſelfe to drawe away man from the word of God, and to robbe him altogether, and holde him in the vanities of this worlde, and may vſe them as a baite on a hooke for to draw them from ſuch vanities, and to incitate and prouoke them to the ſtudye of the truth, me thincketh that wée doe nothing vnworthy of the office of a Chriſtian man. For euen as the holy Apoſtle hath bene made all vnto all men, and doth applye and giue himſelfe vnto euery one, in all The Chriſtian all to all men. 1. Cot. 9. c. 20. that which was poſſible for him, without béeing againſt the will of God, making himſelfe a Iew vnto the Iewes and a Gentile vnto the Gentiles. So me thinketh y by good right, I may doe the lyke, ſo that I do not altogether forget the Chriſtian modeſtie and the honour and reuerence that the Chriſtian oweth vnto the woorde of GOD. For if the bawdes of Sathan endeuour themſelues through faire and goodly delites and merry conceites to deſtroy the poore and ſilly ſoults, the eſpowſes of Ieſus, and to drawe them away from him, for to make them ſerue him and to forſake their maſter: ſhall it not be lawfull for vs to vſe an other practiſe and cunning for to let theirs, for to diſcouer and vnhide their filthineſſe, for to make them appeare to be abhomination to all the world, and to retire and drawe backe the ſoules from his ſtewes, for to ioyne them agayne with Ieſus Chriſt their Sauiour?

If a payſoner doe couer and hide his poiſon with ſome delicate meate, for to poiſon and murther men, ſhall it not be by more iuſt reaſon peruntted to a Phiſi ion to mingle ſuger and hony amonge the wormewoode and the bitter Aleos: for to ſweeten a little the bitterneſſe of theſe drinckes? Which notwithſtanding that they are bitter in the mouth, are yet neuertheleſſe healthfull to the boote. For if ſuch holy deceits are worthy of praiſe to the Phiſitions Holy deceyts. of the body, wherefore ſhal it be deſpiſed to the Phiſitions of the ſoules? I would to GOD that he had giuen vnto vs the grace to deceiue ſo all the worlde for his profite and health. For the diſeaſed is happie, which is deceiued by the Phiſition to his health and healing: which is the ende to the which both the one and the other doe pretende, both the Phiſition and the diſeaſed. I know Booke diſcouering the abuſes very well that there bée already many bookes written, which doe muche diſcouer abuſes, and which doe ſufficiently mocke the vaine ceremonies, idolatries, and ſuperſtitions, which are amonge the Chriſtians, but that ſufficeth not, except one doe teach what is the veritie, and what is a firme and ſound doctrine. The which many haue already done, but bicauſe they ſéeme and appeare too ſeuere and graue vnto thoſe with whom wée haue chiefly to doe, they reade them not, and doe profit nothing. There are others, which haue followed a manner to write altogether contrary vnto thoſe. For euen as thoſe haue regard to none other thing, but to entreate of the woorde of God with all grauitie, modeſtie, and reuerence, adreſſinge their writinges vnto people of good iudgementes and of temperate ſences, and full of the feare of GOD: Theſe héere vnto the contrary, haue not taken their ſight but to the white and marke of mans vanitie and curioſitie, and haue purpoſed to abſteme themſelues from all waightie, honeſt and holy matters, and to write onely of follyes, merry conceites, ieſtes, playes, and paſtimes, as of fooles, moriſhdauncers, ſcoffers and ieſters. And if they woulde holde themſelues within thoſe limits, they were the more tollerable: But many are not content to playe the fooles The office of fooles and ſcoffers. amongeſt men (although that that office is ſcant méete vnto an honeſt man) doe yet worſe. For they giue themſelues but to ſcurrilitie, and doe thincke that they cannot ſufficiently inough delite men except their deuice bée altogether full of ruffenly talke and bawdry, of vilanies Vile and 〈◊〉 be 〈◊◊〉 . and blaſphemies, not onely intollorable to the Chriſtians, but which ſhoulde bée iudged woorthy of grieuous puniſhmentes amongeſt the Iewes, Turkes, Panims, and Infidels. For if the Gentiles and Panims haue not taken and accompted for honeſt men, and worthy to bée aduaunced into anye honourable office in a common wealth, the Moriſhdauncers, Maſkers, Iuglers, Players, Mummers, and Ieſters, what honour is that vnto Princes and vnto Chriſtian people to take delyte, not onelye in ſuch men with their bookes, but in others a great deale more deteſtable, and more ruder in all filthy and vyle woordes, as the ruffians of the ſtewes, and denyers of GOD. Doe wée thincke that Ieſus Chriſt hath ſayde An idle vvord. Mat. 12. c. 35. wythout a cauſe, that for euery idle woorde that men ſhall ſpeake, they muſt render accompt at the day of iudgement? Sith that the trueth, which lyeth not telleth vs the ſame ſo cléerely, and doth meanace and threaten that wee muſte render an accompt for euery idle word: that is to ſay, which is vaine and vnprofitable, whiche ſerueth nothing at all to the glorie of GOD, nor to any edifyinge of our neighbour: Doe wée thincke that our ribalde and bawdye talke, backebitings, euill ſpeakings, vnaduiſed, ſlaunderous and infamous woordes which doe ſerue to none other ende but to peruerte the vnderſtandings of men, to adde or heap euil vpon euil, to caſt oyle into the fire, and to bring towe the better to inflame mans conſcience vnto all wickedneſſe and abhomination, and vnto the which it is alreadie too muche inclined: Doe wée thincke that ſuche languages ſhall not come to an accompte, and that they ſhall not bée a reproche vnto vs and brought before our eyes at the iudgement of GOD? Were it not better for vs to followe the admonition which the holy Apoſtle taught vs ſaying: Let your ſpeach bée alwayes well ſauoured Coll. 4. a 6 The language of the Chriſtians. Ephe. 4. f. 29. and powdered with ſalte, that yée maye knewe howe to aunſwere euery man. Let no filthy communication proceede out of your mouthes: but that which is good to edifie wythall, when néede is: that it maye haue fauour with the hearers.

And grieue not the holy ſpirite of GOD, by whome yée are ſealed vnto the daye of redemption. Let not Ephe. 5. 2 3 fornication and all vncleaneneſſe or couetouſneſſe bée once named amonge you as it becomneth Sainctes: neyther filthineſſe, neither fooliſhe talkinge, neither ieſtinge which are not comely: but rather giuinge of thanckes. Beholde the leſſon whiche the Doctour of the Gentiles giueth vnto the Chriſtians, for to learne them howe they ought to ſpeake: the which many haue very euill ſtudied and kept. For by their woordes and writinges, they profite to none other ende, but to infect and poyſon the ſoules, and to hinder a great many of good ſpirites to read better bookes, and more profitable for their health and ſaluation. For man cannot bée idle, and excepte that hée dyd finde fooliſhe and wicked bookes for to applye therein his ſtudye, hée ſhould bée conſtrayned to ſéeke better and to occupie therein altogether his minde, wythout any detraction vnto vnprofitable thinges. I knowe very well that one maye vppon this replye, that ſuch men in playinge and ieſtinge doe diſcouer the abuſes of the worlde: But it is better not to remoue and diſcouer them, then to diſcouer and blowe them abroade after ſuch a ſorte. For by that manner of dooing, they may rather make of a To shevv forth lying vvithout the truth. ſuperſtitious and an hipocrite, a man wythout GOD and wythout Religion, then a good religyous and holye man.

For notwythſtandinge that they doe ſhewe foorth the follye of men, and that which ought not to bee, yet neuertheleſſe they ſhewe not that which ought to bée, and what is the true wiſdome and the remedy for to redreſſe ſuch diſeaſes. It is very eaſie to mock and ſcoffe at lyings, and to ſhew that which is not, but it ſufficeth not, ercept one doe ſhewe the trueth, and what it is. It ſufficeth not to knowe Antechriſte, excepte wée knowe Ieſus Chriſt.

That is to teach after the manner as Cicero deſputed of the Nature of the Gods, the which is more proper, Diſentations of 〈◊〉 . for to ſhewe that which is not God, then who is God. Such manner of dooing bringeth no reſolution to the conſcience, but leaueth it alwayes in doubte and errour. And although thoſe ſhall doe no worſe, yet that ſhalbe ſome thing, and they ſhall not altogether loſe their time, for that they haue incitated and pricked men forwarde, and put a deſire in them, to inquire of the truth, for to knowe it. For that is no little profit nor no little aduauntage, that they haue already brought it to that pointe. But theſe héere of whom I doe ſpeake, doe not follow the ſtile, I ſay not, of ſome good diuine, nor onely of ſome good Panim Philoſopher, but doe ſéeme that they are altogether giuen to the immitation of Luſian, a man without God and Luſian and Luſtaniſtes. without Religion, a mocker and deſpiſer of God and men. If it bée a matter to paſtime, to laugh, play, and ieſt at the ſuperſtitions and idolatries, of to deuoute men, caphardes and hipocrites, and of all the eſtates of the world, we néede not ſearch for none other Authour, and wée haue no néede of theſe new Luſianiſtes, which are but as his little Diſciples, for to carrie his booke after him. For if wée muſt make compariſon of the language, they approch nothinge néere to his eloquence. If wée muſt compare the ſpirite and the knowledge, there is as much difference as is betwéene the apprentice and the Maiſter. Wherefore if the writinges of Luſian and the matters that be entreated off, were very profitable and neceſſary vnto thoſe whiche could not reade them in the Greeke tongue, or béeinge tranſlated into the Latine tongue. I woulde counſaile rather his Diſciples to trauayle and employ their eloquence to tranſlate them in the French tongue, then to forge and inuent for vs newe Luſians, which doe but ſteale from him his inuentions and arguments, for to attribute them vnto themſelues, as if they had bene the firſt Authours and inu utours. For howe wicked ſo euer hée hath bene, and enemie to GOD and all Religion, yet wée cannot deme but that he was a wiſe man, a great Oratoure and a Philoſopher, and that he hath written many good thinges, & a greate deale better then thoſe do here, of which the faithful man may wel profit, ſo that he read them after an other ſpirit & intention then he hath written them, & that he do know to try the gold from the midſt of the droſſe, & to ſeperate the poyſon, from the good meate, but thoſe whom I rebuke, doe teach nothing which can ſerue to the honour and glory of God, nor vnto good manners, nor to the edification of the congregation, nor to ciuilitie, nor to the knowledge of naturall, humaine, nor diuine thinges, but to playe the foole, and to ieſt with all the worlde, and to moeke and deſpiſe aſwell the true Chriſtian religion, as the ſuperſtitions and abhominations of Antechriſt. For if they would ſpeake one honeſt woorde, it muſt be accompanied with fiftie vnhoneſt woordes. If they doe ſet foorth the truth, it muſt bée that it be alwaies enuironed with a thouſand infamies and ſlaunders, as of Damoiſels and body kéepers, for to hide, defend, & countergarde that it be not taken vncouered. Howe much can that manner of writing & ſpeaking profite? For the prayer of the truth is ſimple, & would The nature of the truth. not haue ſuch couertures and cloaks, but would walke open and vncouered And if wée haue compaſſion of the ciuyle and imperiall lawes, bycauſe that they béeinge goodly in themſelues, are diſhonored by the hemme of thoſe gloſes & filthes of Bartolus, and barbarous writers. What may we The ems and gloſes of the lavves and of the truth. ſay of the truth, ſo noble a daughter of the eternall king, accompanied with Damoiſels ſo ſtincking, vile, and diſſormed with ſo many filthineſſe which doe marre and take from hir, hir beautie? And to replie that it is not ſure and wythout daunger to ſpeake truth in any other manner, I doe aunſwere to the ſame, that hée were etter to holde his peace altogether, then to preach it after ſuch ſort, and that it ſhoulde bee better not to giue meate vnto a man, then to giue him poyſon for to kill him. Wherefore all thinges compted and reckenned, I knowe not howe one can conclude any other thing of ſuch doctryne but that the Authours thereoff doe gyue occaſion vnto thoſe which haue any feare God, to account them for Lucianiſtes. And vnto thoſe which haue nothing, or a very little, to pull them away altogether, and to make them recule & goe backe from the truth more then they were: As dayly wée ſée it by experience in young children, merchants, gentlemen, damoiſels, and courtiers, who after that they haue taſted of ſuch bookes, are cleane out of taſte, & cannot away with all other, which are not like vnto them. Wherfore I would gladly counſaile ſuch men of ſo good a minde and ſpirite, which giue themſelues to make ſuch bookes, and I deſire and pray them in the name of Ieſus Chriſte, and ſo much as they loue his honour and theirs, to applie that goodly wit and vnderſtanding which GOD hath giuen vnto them, and that rhetoricke and gift of eloquence, wherewith they are indued, into ſome better ſtudy, & matter more profitable, to the ende they bée not rebuked and blamed to haue abuſed the gyft of God againſt his honour and glorie. For that cauſe I haue purpoſed to write after a ſort, which peraduenture will ſéeme very euilly to agrée with a Theologian, to wit, vnto one which wil ſpeake of diuine letters: But I thincke that when men ſhal vnderſtand my reaſons, they will take my aduice and deliberation in good parte, and I will leaue vnto none any iuſte occaſion to accuſe and rebuke mée in that I rebuke others, except that men loue rather to ſerue to their affections and to vſe ſlaunders, then to iudge of thinges accordinge to truth and equitie. I haue already touched ſome reaſons which haue induced mée to do that, beſides yet I wyl adde too many others. The firſt is, that I would aſſay to make thoſe learne by my example which haue a better wyt then I, to doe that which I my ſelfe cannot: the whiche thinge ought not to ſéeme to ſtraunge. For a whetſtone & a whéele doe ſharpen well the Iron, and maketh it to cut, and yet neuertheleſſe it is not ſharpe nor cutteth of it ſelfe: And at the leaſt wiſe I indeuour my ſelfe to ſhewe vnto thoſe good wittes and ſpirites, which delyght themſelues in pleaſaunt thinges, and which occupie themſelues to ſuch vanities, and matters in the which they maye exerciſe their vnderſtanding and cloquence, more to their honour before GOD and good people, and to more greater profit then they doe, if they will not apply themſelues vnto matters to high and waightie, as many haue done, as well amonge the olde as the newe. And if I my ſelfe cannot doe that which I would teach vnto others, at the leaſte wiſe I will ſerue them in ſtéede of a patterne, wherein they may finde ſome thing for to followe: Or at the leaſte wiſe, the fault y they ſhal finde in my manner of procéeding, wyll admoniſhe them of the vices that they ought to auoyde in their writinges, the which if they finde in my ſtile, or in my inuention, or diſpoſition, I am ſure that they ſhall not finde in the ſentence and ſubſtaunce of the matters, any thing vnworthy for a Chriſtian man. For whatſoeuer thinge that it bée, I beléeue that one ſhall finde nothing which may induce to hereſie, except thoſe who of themſelues doe pretende therevnto, and who as the Spiders doe drawe the venym from all places, and hereſies out of the holy Scriptures, which are gyuen vnto vs to kéepe vs from all hereſie. Although that I doe The manner to mocke to Gods glorie. mocke and ieſt at the abuſes, errours, hereſies, ſuperſtitions and Idolatryes of the Churche of Antechriſte. Yet neuertheleſſe whoſoeuer ſhal wel marke and conſider the matter, and ſhall haue patience to reade all the tenoure of the ſentence and of the Argument vnto the ende, excepte hée be of a peruerſe iudgement, ſhall bée conſtrayned and compelled to acknowledge and confeſſe that I doe not mocke or ſcorne of thinges which are worthy, not onely of mockery, but alſo of hatred and abhomination of all mankinde: And that I doe not onely vncouer the abuſes without ſhewing by and by the true vſe of y thinges: nor I doe not condempne the errours and the lyinges, without ſhewinge the trueth that wée muſte followe, and wherein the faithfull ought to ſtay themſelues: And I doe not manifeſt Antechriſt for to auoyde and to flée from him, without ſhewing Ieſus Chriſte for to followe him. Wherefore me thinckes, that thoſe which haue their eares ſo delicate and cannot onely abide one lyttle woorde Delicate eares. againſt the Idolatry, ſuperſtition, & the great abuſes which leade all the worlde into ruine, are not rightfull Iudges, but of a corrupt and peruerſe iudgement. For what iudgement is this, to heare and ſée the name of God, the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt to bée blaſphemed dayly ſo horribly, and not to ſpeake a woorde? And to bée ſuch an vniuſt and ſharpe rebuker, and ſeuere Iudge, agaynſt thoſe who onely in ſcoffing and ieſting will admoniſh & rebuke ſuch blaſphemers? They doe willingly ſuffer that ſuche men doe mocke God openly, that they doe blaſpheme hym without any ſhame: That they doe tourne vpſide downe The louers of mans honour, are traitours of Gods honour. all Religion & the truth of Ieſus Chriſt: That they make fruſtrate and of none effect the vertue and efficacie of his death and paſſion: That they doe eate vp and deuoure his poore ſhéepe before their eyes: That they doe leade the poore ſoules vnto perdition & eternall dampnation, & doe holde all the world in errour & Idolatry for to deſtroie them altogether: And cannot we ſuffer that vnto ſuch mockers & blaſphemers of God and of men, one ſhould onely giue a little holy water of the court, and that one ſhould ſprinckle them with the leaſt thing of y world, onely with ſome little word or ſaying, or with ſome pleaſant word, the which can hurt no man, and which is no diſhonour vnto God, but ſerueth to diſcouer the abuſes, and to bring the mouths of y faithful out of faſt, with the idolatry and ſuperſtition: and to manifeſt vnto them the ſeducers, for the health of their ſoules. I dóe greatly meruaile of thoſe great louers of the honour of Hipocrites, Seduſers, falſe Prophets, rauiſhers, & deuourers of the poore widdowes, and fatherleſſe, mockers, contemners, & blaſphemers of the word of God, & haue ſo little The honour of Ieſus trodden dovvne. regard or care of the honour of God, & of Ieſus Chriſt our Lord, whom they ſée daily to be crucified before their eyes, and to bée ſpurned and trodden vnderfoote the bloud of his teſtament, and couenaunt, and yet dare not ſpeak a woord: But which is worſe, they wil not yet ſuffer that others, vnto whom God hath giuen the meanes, and boldneeſſ, ſhould ſpeake, and rebuke ſuch abuſes and ſacrileges importable to all good Chriſtian hearts. Mée thinkes that ſuch people haue no iuſt occaſion to condempne vs in that behalfe. For if they are too wiſe, and doe thincke that ſuch things Cuer vviſe. agrée not with the grauitie of their perſons, then let them leaue them to be ſpoken of the fooles, ſith that as men doe The priuiledge of Fooles. ſay they haue the priuiledge to ſpeake all things. For as for my part, I would be very well contented, that God would giue me the grace, that I might ſay vnto them, as the Apoſtles ſayd vnto the Corinthians: Ye are wiſe and 1. Cor. 4. c. 10. we are fooles for the loue of Chriſt. If they would preach Ieſus Chriſt couert and hid, let them not be angry if wée To preach Ieſus Chriſt couertly & hid. preach him all naked and openly, and him crucified. And if we cannot glory but in the fooliſhneſſe of his croſſe, as the Apoſtle ſayth, the which yet neuertheleſſe is the true wiſdome 1. Cor. 1. c. 9. of GOD, althoughe that the worlde reputeth it fooliſhneſſe. For we doe well perceiue what profite there commeth of their ſo hidden preachings, of which none can almoſt receiue any fruite, except he vnderſtand the matter that they intreate off, almoſt as well as they themſelues. For what vtilitie and profite can there come vnto the poore 〈…〉 rant people, for whome the ſermons oughte to be chiefeſt made? doe they not alwayes continue in their errors? and are they not confirmed the more by their darke queſtions, and hyd words? the which the hearers do draw and take for their aduauntage, and interprete them after their owne ſence and meaning, and not after the meaning of the ſpeaker, except he doe expounde if playnly, or at the leaſt in manner that one vnderſtande not one thing for an other. For the poore people cannot vnderſtande that Sophiſtry, nor comprehend their darke queſtions and problemes, who haue yet much adoe o vnderſtande that which one declareth vnto them as vnto lyttle children. For if a learned man knoweth very well hew to drawe out of their ſermons the conſequences the which they will entreate off, how many ſhall one finde of others, which wyll, doe cleane contrary. And although there were but their ſtlence, by the which they doe diſſimule the abuſes and the Idolatry, doe they not approue ſufficiently the falſe relygion? I doe feare very much, that one ſhall not finde many, amongſt theſe ſo wiſe and diſcréet, which are ſo prompt and ready to iudge and condempne all thoſe which follow not their counſayle and carnall wiſedome, of ſuche an aduiſe and opinion as Demades was, who did mocke the Athenians, The counſell of Demades. Vale. Max. lib. 7 c. 2. bicauſe they did put themſelues in daunger, to fall into the indignation and diſpleaſure of Alexander the great, and to looſe their landes, townes, and countryes, bicauſe they refuſed to giue vnto the ſayd Alexander the diuine The ambitiō of Alexander. honours, and to worſhip him as a God: vnto whom Demades ſayd. Take ye good héed, leaſt in kéeping the Heauen you do loſe the earth: willyng therby to giue ye Athenians to vnderſtande, that they were great fooles, to put themſelues in ſuch daunger, for to kéepe the honour of the Gods: And that it were better for them to be Idolaters of men, and to honour Alexander as a GOD, then to looſe both bodye and goodes, whoſe counſayle they followed. Wherefore Diogenes in mocking and ieſting of their vanitie Diogenes. and flatterie, ſaide vnto them. Sith that you haue made Alexander a God, and doe honour him for Bacchus, Bacchus, S rap s. Auguſt. de ciuita Dei. lib. 18. c. 5. make mée alſo Serapis, and honour mée as him. For euen as Bacchus was honoured among the Satyres, ſo was Serapis honoured and worſhipped in Aegypt in the lykeneſſe of an O e, and taken for the great God: of whome the lawe was made, that whoſoeuer did call him a man, and did not accompt and take him for God, ſhould looſe his lyfe. Wherefore almoſt in all the temples and churches Matrob. li. 3. c. 9 Varro de lingu at lib. 3. Augerona, Hars pocrates. Sylence. Outd. Meta. 9. Sanctaque B •• a is, var ſq •• o loribus Apis. in which Serapis was honoured and Iſis in lyke manner, they vſed to holde an Image, lyke vnto that which the Romaynes called. Augerona, the which ſome doe call Harpocrates, who did holde his finger agaynſt his mouth, admoniſhing euery one to kéepe ſilence, leaſt they ſhould ſpeake any thing agaynſt thoſe goodly Gods, which might bring hurte vnto the ſpeakers. O woulde to God that we had Qulqus premit vo ••• dig toque ſilentia ſuadet. pers digiro compoſe labellum. not ſo many Alexanders, Serapis, and Iſis, who being nortall men, would yet neuertheleſſe be taken and accompted as Gods among men, and that their Idolles, lawes, ceremonyes, traditions, ſtatutes and ordinaunces ſhould bée preferred defore God and his woord: nor ſo many Harpocrates, which doe not onely make a ſigne with the finger, that thoſe vnto whome God hath giuen the heart to confeſſe the truth ſhould holde their peace, and be not dumine Images, but ſhould know very well to rebuke thoſe which haue a better affection then they, and which doe ſpeake that which they dare not take in hande. For they will not looſe the lande or earthe, for to kéepe the Heauen: and doe accompt and take thoſe for fooles, raſh and mad, which doe make themſelues to be perſecuted, for to uphold and maintaine the word of the Lord.

But it is greatly to be feared, that in thinking to kéepe the earth the which they preferre before the Heauen, they looſe both Heauen and earthe, as it happeneth vnto many, who loued rather to follow the counſaile of Demades, then that of Ieſus Chriſt, and the example of him and of his Apoſtles. And how do thoſe edifie, who in their ſecret preaching, doe put alwayes a rype betwéene two rotten, or rather a rotten betwéen two rype, diſguiſing as much as they can Gods truth, after that they haue preached for the lyttle feare that they ſhall haue, will denye all that which they haue well preached before, and will denye Ieſus Chriſte openly to the great ſlaunder of all the poore faithfull people, whome they neuer haue confeſſed but particularly, ſecretly and priuily? I doe not ſpeake this for to rebuke any man of his infirmitie, inconſtancie, or carnall feare, by the which he which thinketh to be very hardy & conſtant, doth finde hymſelfe ouercome: But I ſpeake onely vnto a companye of vayne and glorious fooles, which doe theſe thinges and worſe, and yet neuertheleſſe woulde fayne couer and hyde their faults and condemyne the poore faithfull people, who hazarde their lyfe for to aduaunce and amplyfie the kingdome of GOD, and which boldelye and conſtatlye rebulie Idolatry and the abuſes. Mée thinkes that they do The office of a Prophet. Iere. 1. b. euill vnderſtand the office of the Prophet, to whom it is not onely commaunded of the Lord to plant and buyld vp: but alſo to roote out, breake, off and to deſtroy, for to plant and buyld afterwards, and to cry as loude as he can, lyke Eſa. 58. a. 1 10. tho voyce of a trumpet, for to ſhew vnto the people their offences, and to the houſe of Iacob their ſinnes. If they wil ſay, that we which are out of daunger, haue goodly ſcoffing, let them then ſuffer vs to doe that which they would not, dare not, or cannot doe. If they thinke that it is a matter too vyle for them, and that they will not occupy themſelues but about graue and waighty matters and of great importance; let them ſuffer vs to play the children with the children, and to abaſe our ſelues with the lyttle ones, and to vſe our plaine ſpeach with the ruſticall, and to edifie the poore ignorant, as they doe edifie the wiſe, and to vncouer the errors vnto thoſe which know thē not. If they be great Diuines and ſeuere Philoſophers, let them accompt vs for young Grammarians, who do but a lyttle open and bruſe the matters, and to chewe vnto the ſimple people the meate a lyttle more ſmaller, for to prepare them to their ſchoole, and vnto a more higher Philoſophie. If they thinke that, we muſt entreat of ſuch matters with more greater grauitie & modeſtie, I deny not that we can entreate of the word of God with to great honour, and reuerence: But I would that they had aſwel the conſideration, that the word of God is not ſo ſeuere, but y it hath his merry conceits, ſports, honeſt games, merry ieſts, & words couenable & moſt agreeing The manner to ſpeke merely in the holy Scrip. to his grace & Maieſtie. And he y will trye & proue it, let him conſider how. GOD himſelfe, and Ieſus Chriſt that greate celeſtiall Orator, doth ſpeake ſometime, either in rebuking his Diſciples or the Hipocrites and reprobate: and among thoſe which the Lord did ſpeake, without heaping together, a great many of examples, that they would onely, marke and behold what anſwere Ioas the father of Gedeon dyd Iudges. 6. f. 31. make vnto the Burgeſſes and Citizens of the towne who Iudges. 6. f. 31 complayned to him of his ſonne, which had pulled downe and deſtroyed the Idoll of Baal and his Aulter: And the wordes that Ely had with the Prophets of Baal: What 3. Reg 18. e. 15. Eſa. 44. b. 13. mocked did he giue them? And Fſay in lyke manner againſt the Babilonians and their Idolles? Who yet neuertheleſſe were both of them graue & very ſeuere Prophets. And in the booke of wiſedome, and in Baruch and in the Sapien. 13. 14. 15. 36. Epiſtle attributed vnto Ieremy. I will leaue off to alleage the examples of ſo many good auncient Doctors, who in their bookes, and by their writings haue ſo much ieſted and mocked at the ſuperſtitions and Idolatries of the Pan ns, which had more greater reaſon and appearaunce then thoſe againſt whome we doe at this time fight. He that will not beléeue me let him read their workes, chiefely of Tertulian, Euſebius, Lactantius, Auguſtine, Hierome, and other lyke, vpon all thoſe that they haue written againſt the Pan ns and Heretickes. Wherefore then ſhall not that bée permitted vs in Dialogues, which we rebuke not in thoſe great men, when they haue ſpoken it in their owne perſon, the which requireth more grauitie, then if they did bringe in other men ſpeaking and diſputing together, as I doe in my Dialogues & diſputacions. For ther is none of a good Licence and libertie of Dialogues. iudgement, but that he vnderſtandeth very well that in the phraſe of writing there is no greater libertie and licence in Poetry, then Dialogues and talkes. For they muſt bring in the perſons ſpeaking according to him whom they repreſent: who oftentimes do ſpeake more after their ſence and of the perſons whom they doe ieſt at, then according or after the ſame of the authour. Although that the author hath willingly vſed to chooſe ſome one by whom he giueth to vnderſtande what is his opinion, and the beſt ſentence. Therfore I haue brought in foure men of diuers qualitis The perſons of the Dialogues. and opinions, and doe make them to ſpeake according to the matters which are talked off at this daye among men, and according to the nature and affection of euery one of them. I haue brought in one as a man very deuout and ſearing God, which neuertheleſſe is yet altogether wrapped in ſuperſticion and errour, and maynteineth mans traditions, but not wilfully. I haue brought in an other, which is not yet fully aſſured and ſet downe neyther on the one ſide nor on the other, but is troubled in his conſcience, and knoweth not very well whom to beleeue, but runneth on the one ſide and n the other, and yet neuertheleſſe deſireth to know the truth, and he enquireth and knoweth already many abuſes: wherefore he ſpeaketh a lyttle more ioyfully, and careth not ſo much for mans traditions, and is not ſo affectioned after them, nor ſo ſeuere as the firſt, who is yet altogether rooted in theſe olde ſuperſtitions. Afterwards commeth one, who repreſenteth the perſon of a graue & honeſt man, & ſkilfull in y heauenly and humaine letters. which ſpeaketh dayly with great honour and reuerence of the word of God and abſolueth the queſtions and maters alleaged of the one ſide and of the other, according to the ſentences of the holy Scriptures, and auncient Eccleſiaſticall Doctors. And for the fourth there is one which is a little more talkatiue then this, and a lyttle more giuen to ſpeake fréely agaynſt the abuſes, but he doth it with more greater modeſtie & honeſtie, then the Caphards doe ſpeake againſt the miniſters, and louers of the truth. I doe ſayne this man to haue more ſkill or knowledge in humayne letters then the others, and which ſpeaketh willyngly and ioyfully, but in ſuch ſort, that he playeth in earneſt, and ſayth nothing but to the diſhonour of Antechriſt, for to magnifie Ieſus Chriſt, & that he is content to be corrected by his companion, if any thing be to be blamed.

Wherefore if any man would ſaeme to cauill, becauſe it ſéemeth vnto him ſome time that this man playeth the parte Humaine letters m ngled vvith the diuine. of a mocker, and that he mingleth the humayne letters, Hiſtories and Poetryes with the diuine, let him conſider the perſon whom he repreſentet & that he doth not ſpeake any thing ſo abſurde nor ſo ſtraunge, but that it ſerueth to the preſente matter, and lette him not vere himſelfe anye more.

Furthermore if Saint Paul by occaſion hath ſometime Act. 17. f. 28. 1. 〈◊〉 . 15. b. 12. Titus. 1. d. 12. alleaged the witneſſe of the Panuns, yea of Poets, for to ſerue to his matter, and if the auncient Doctors of the Church of whom I haue already ſpoken off, haue yet done more and their booke haue ſerued them ſo well for to confounde them themſelues, and to vanquiſh them of their errours and to ſhew vnto them more cléerely the truth & vertue of our relygion: Inſomuch that Iulian the Apoſtate in The forbidding of Iulian the Apoſtate. Hiſto. trip. lib. 9. cap. 17. ſpite of his beard was conſtrayned to forbid the Chriſtians to reade them: he ought not to thinke it ſtraunge, if I do follow their example in lyke things, chiefely when I wyll ſhew plainly and openly before all mens eyes, how the ſuperſtitions and Idolatryes of the Chriſtians were taken from the Panims and Idolaters, and altogether lyke or worſe. I doe not alleage them for that Gods truth is not ſufficient of it ſelfe, to allowe and maynteyne it ſelfe, but for to make all thinges to ſerue him, and for to make the lyght the better to bée knowne from darkeneſſe, the truthe from lyinge, and the better to vanquiſh and ouercome the ſhameleſſé ſeducers, who would yet hide and couer theire hereſies and abhominations, if one doe not ſhew them forth with the finger, and except one doe take them as the theefe vppon his theft and robbery, and the ſhameleſſe whore with hir whoredome. And if there be any yet which will not be contented with thoſe reſons, I will ſhew vnto him ſuch an excuſe and defence as Mantuan did make for himſelfe, in a matter almoſt lyke, ſaying: Thinke not that I am to be rebuked bicauſe that 1. Lib. de patiē. c. 23 I haue recourſe to the authoritie of an heathen man. For Saint Auguſtine which is one of our Doctors, ſayth: If the Philoſophers haue ſaid any thing confirmable vnto our fayth, we muſt not auoyd them nor feare them, but rather we ought to conuert & tourne them to our vſe and profite, as things recouered & taken away from vniuſt poſſeſſours, for to make them ſerue to their true poſſeſſours.

If they doe then admit the iuſt and reaſonable excuſe of Mantuan, and doe attribute anye authoritye vnto Saint Auguſtine, they ought not to doe vnto me worſe then to other. And if it ſéeme vnto any of our ſages and A buſes are not yet inough vncouered & made knovvne. wiſe men, that the ſame is but loſt time, and that we néede not now any more to diſcouer the abuſes, bicauſe that they are already ſufficiently diſcouered and opened, I am of the contrary opinion, and doe know cleane contrary by experience. I knowe not whether the ſages haue ſéene the abuſes ſo vncouered, and whether they (which dare not ſpeke of Ieſus Chriſt but with halfe a mouth, and dare not preach but ſecretly) haue founde people among them of ſo ſharpe and earneſt a ſpirite, that they doe know all things and are ignoraunt of nothing. But as for vs which are héere, we haue experience cleane contrary. For ſithens that the Goſpell hath bene preached already ten or twelue yeares in ſome places, and fréely (the which men dare not in all places) and the abuſes haue ben manifeſted ſo cléerely and playnly as the ſame is cléere at hye noone, we are yet all abaſhed, that we doe finde dreamings, errours and great ſuperſtitions in ſome, yea in thoſe in whome a man would not thinke, and yet we doe thinke that we haue alreadye much profited in the knowledge of God. But that is meruayle that of the marke & carecter of the Diuell, which is ſo harde to deface, and of an olde cuſtome which is ſo hard to teare out, and ſo much the harder the worſe it is. Wherfore I ſhalbe much abaſhed, that there where one dares not ſpeake of Ieſus Chriſt, nor to open his mouth agaynſt Antechriſt, that the errours and abuſes were all ſo cléere and manifeſt, that there was no more néede to ſpeake of them, inaſmuch as héere and there wher the truth is cl rly & fréely preached, one cannot tell which way one can plucke and teare them from the hearts of men, and that it is not requiſite to ſay or ſpeke any more againſt them. Or it muſt be that God hath there more amply ſhed out his grace, or els that there are héer very dull ſpirites and wits in compariſon of others. But I feare rather that thoſe which glory in themſelues to know them ſo much, know not themſelues the moite, and vnderſtande very euill, that which they thincke to knowe. For if they had intelligence and vnderſtanding ſuch as they thincke to haue, and that they dyd knowe the abhomination ſuch as it is, and howe it diſpleaſeth God, and is noiſome and hurtfull vnto his church, they would retyre and drawe themſelues further from it then they doe, and it ſhould bée vnpoſſible that they could ſée and ſuffer it, but would flée rather away from thence, or they would ſuffer themſelues rather to bée burned, then to diſſemble and conſent vnto it: But would ſay as the faithfull of whom the Prophet hath written, which doe conſider the grace which God hath done vnto them, and comparing them with their firſt condition, ſay, to the great abhomination Eſa. 30. c. 22. of al Idolatry. Fie, get you hence. And therefore, one cannot to much manifeſt the abuſes. For truth cannot be The profit to vncouer abuſes. knowne without diſcouering them & pulling them downe. And in dooing that, one doth manifeſt them vnto thoſe who knoweth thē not yet, which ſhal be alwaies more in nūber thē we would, the which we muſt draw away. Afterwards the thing may ſerue them which already haue the knowledge, many wayes. Firſt for to refreſhe and quicken the memory from the darkneſſes in which they haue bene, to the end, that they may knowe the better the blindneſſe & infirmitie of mans vnderſtanding, & what he may do of himſelfe, when hée wyll bée guided by his owne head, and forſake God and his woorde, for to followe men and their traditions. Afterwardes, that ſhall ſerue them for a remembraunce and ſigne of the triumph of Ieſus Chriſt, and of his truth, to the confuſion of Sathan, Antechriſte, lyinge, and mans wiſdome, who wyll exalt hymſelfe aboue the knowledge of GOD, to the ende that hée haue more occaſion to humble himſelfe, to acknowledge the mercye that GOD hath done for him, and to render thanckes vnto him: And that hée bée more prudent and better aduyſed héereafter, and praye vnto the LORD more earneſtly that hée doe kéepe hym that hée doe neuer fall againe into ſuch or like errours and inconueniences. Furthermore that ſhall ſerue hym as a pricke, the better to pricke him forwarde to indignation againſt Antechriſte, and to haue compaſſion vppon the poore ignoraunt people and his wandering and erringe bretheren, and to take wyth more greater courage the cauſe of the trueth in hande, conſidering the vnworthyneſſe of the thing. And he that ſhall bee yet weake, ſhould fortefie and ſtrengthen himſelfe, and hée that ſhall bée already firme and ſtronge, ſhould confirme himſelfe more. For all theſe cauſes and reaſons, GOD woulde that the errours and ſinnes of the people ſhoulde bée regiſtred, and hath ſo many tymes commaunded that they ſhould bee remembred. And the Prophet Eſay dyd not admoniſhe ſo many times wythout cauſe the people, after that hée had well mocked them for Eſa. 46. c. 8 Idolatry, that they ſhould remember thoſe thinges to the ende they maye the better knowe the iudgement of God which is vppon the Infidels, which are as bruite beaſtes, and what treaſure it is to haue the truth of God and his woorde. And if any man wyll yet ſaye, that notwythſtanding that it is not euill, but very profitable and neceſſary to ſhewe foorth and declare the abuſes, yet neuertheleſſe wée muſt not procéede in ſuch ſort, which ſhould ſéeme peraduenture vnto ſome men more proper and fitte for to bée offended, then for to bée edified by it: I doe aunſwere vnto the ſame, that I knowe not what thoſe ſhall bée that ſhall reade thoſe bookes, nor what occaſion they maye haue to bée offended. I doe thincke that they ſhall not bée ſo much eſtéemed that many people woulde reade them: Beſide that many peraduenture woulde, whiche cannot. But howſoeuer it bée, if thoſe that doe reade them are good and vertuous people and fearing GOD, they ſhall knowe that I ſtudye not but to manifeſt the veritie, and to glorifie Ieſus Chriſt, & that thoſe whom I rebuke are not onely worthy to bée mocked, but vnworthy that the earth beareth them, excepte they wyll acknowledge their faultes, and giue glorye vnto GOD. If they were picures and contemners of GOD, they can be no worſe Ep ••• es then they are, and therefore knowe in what reputation they ought to bée vnto all good people, and that they are vnworthy to be taken and accompted not onely for Chriſtians, but for men béeing a great deale more worſe then bruite beaſtes. If they bée Phariſes and obſtinate Hipocrites, Hypocrytes Ma . 15 a. 1. The offence of the Phariſes. and that they doe ſéeke the occaſion of offence, they doe finde it in Ieſus Chriſt. Wherefore wée muſt not much care or take thought for it. For they doe take the offence wythout any man gyuing it them, and are an offence vnto themſelues, and cannot heare the truth wythout béeing offended. Wherefore wée muſt holde vnto that which Ieſus Chriſt ſayde vnto them: Let them alone, for they are the blinde leaders of the blinde. They Mat. 15. b. 14. muſt vnderſtande that an euill knotte and harde péece of Malo nodo Malus tuntus. woode to cleaue, hath néede of an harde wedge and a ſtronge mall to cleaue it. If they are ſo ſhameleſſe, that they haue no ſhame at all, and haue their heart ſo obſtinate and hardened, that they haue no remorſe of cenſcience, in mockinge of GOD and blaſpheminge hym ſo horriblye as they doe daylye, and doe teſte ſo at men to their greate loſſe and hurte, ſhall wée bée more aſhamed to tell them their iniquitie? to rebuke their abuſes and abhominations which they dooe? If they woulde not that one ſhoulde ſpeake of them, let them leaue off and ceaſe to doe them.

For I beléeue that there is not a man of a good hearte, which taketh any great pleaſure to remoue that filthineſſe except they bée conſtrained to doe it through their importunitie, impudencie and ſhameleſſe face. For what good Chriſtian heart can ſuffer, that dayly men ſhoulde hyde thoſe abhominations, and that one ſhoulde couer ſuche villanyes, makinge vs to beléeue, that their filthmeſſe and ſtincke is as ſweete as balme: their poyſon to bée the bread of lyfe: lyinge to bée the truth: Hell to bée Paradiſe: curſinge to bée bleſſinge: darkeneſſe to bée light: and death lyfe? As for me I cannot colour, flatter nor hyde the thinges, and I cannot but name them by their names. For ſuch is the language and ſtyle of the ſpyrite of God, which will not ſpeake after mens fantaſies The ſtile of the holy Ghoſt. and for to pleaſe them, as the Oratou s, which can giue vnto vices the names of vertues, and ſuch colour as it pleaſeth them, but to ſpeake truth, as the thinge is, calling Idolatrie, that which the Hipocrites and Idolaters doe call diuine ſeruice, and their Idolles, Diuells, the which they call Gods. Wherefore althoughe The forehed of hypocrytes and prophets ſuch Hipocrites haue their forheades of ſtone and Iron ſo harde and immutable, that one cannot make them bluſhe, but doe kéepe their countenaunces as théeues and murtherers, and ſhameleſſe as harlots, yet let them vnderſtand on the other ſide that GOD hath giuen to his ſeruaunts, as he ſaid vnto Ezechiel, aforehead of Braſſe, and of Ezech. 3 b. 9 a Diamond which is yet more harder, and which doth leſſe ſhame to ſpeake the truth and to giue praiſes vnto God, then they to mainteine lyings, & to blame it. And therfore the Lord commaunded Ezechiel, ſaying: goe ſpeake vnto Ezech. 3 b. 7 them, and ſay vnto them that which I haue commaunded thée. I know neuertheleſſe that they will do nothing, but I will y thou do tell them. I know not what excuſe ſuch men can haue. For they haue bene already taught al manner of wayes. If they do complaine that one hath learned & taught them to ſharply, and with to great ſeueritie and rigor, I would learne and teach thē a little more ioyfully, and more ieſtingly, then bitterly. If they doe yet finde my manner of dooing too ſharpe, there are as many others, which haue written as modeſtly as is poſſible, & yet they finde no goodneſſe in it, and leaue not off to perſeuer alwayes worſe and worſe, in their errours and hereſies. Wherefore I knowe not what ſong one may ſing vnto them, but to rebuke them of that which Ieſus Chriſt rebuked the Iewiſhe people, and that which the little children, whiche played in the ſtréetes, rebuked their companions off: when Mat 11. b. 16 wée dyd ſinge vnto you ſorrowfull thinges, you haue not wepte, when wée dyd ſinge vnto you ioyfull thinges you haue not daunſed. Iohn Baptiſt came in great ſeueritie auſteritie, & haue found him very ſharp, & they ſay he hath the Diuell within him. Ieſus Chriſt came with all humilitie and gentleneſſe, and they ſaid that he was a drunkard and a glutton, and a friend vnto publicans and ſinners. If one do ſpeake vnto them ſharply, as their iniquitie requireth, they ſay that one is furious and mad. If one do ſpeake vnto them pleaſantly, they will call him foole or ſcoffer. To couclude, they will alwaies finde ſome thing to ſay, as wée ſée it by experience in our time. Many men at the beginning haue taken vppon them to touch a little ſome abuſes, yet of the moſt groſeſt & moſt apparant. Theſe Hipocrites could not beare them, but they haue perſecuted them by ſea and land. They cannot onely ſuffer that one ſhould touch a little with his finger their Idolatry & ſuperſtitiō, & that one ſhould open his mouth for to ſpeak one word for to reforme their eſtate, but which is more, haue declared themſelues to be enemies vnto all learned & wiſe men, which haue trauailed to aboliſh all barberouſneſſe and ſophiſtrie for to ſet vp againe all good letters and other diſciplines, & haue accompted and condemned them for heritickes, and haue put them in great daunger of their liues. Sith then that they cannot ſuffer thoſe héere, that they ſhould goe ſo pleaſantly, not onely of little dialogues, & familiar talke for little children, which doo vnto them yet more greater honour then they deſerue and do flatter them more then is néed, God hath raiſed vp others, who haue in ſuch ſort remoued their filthines, the which others haue not done but a little tickled vp, that they haue in ſuch ſort made the filthineſſe and ſtinke ſo to auoide, that all the world doth perceiue and foole it, in ſuch ſort that one can no longer abide and ſuffer it. When theſe ſharpe ſurgeons are come, which haue thruſt their inſtrument ſo deepe within the Apoſtume, that they haue perced them euen vnto the heart, and bones, they haue begun to reiect y firſt which did but a little touch the wounds and ſores without, and through their gentleneſſe make them to feſter and waxe worſe and worſe, makinge of it but a certeine pallatiue cure or healing. When they haue experimented and tried the ſecond, they haue cried out Alarome againſt them, and haue bene conſtrained to prayſe the firſt whome they condempned in compariſon of thoſe héere.

Afterwards, came conſequently others who haue a little better vncouered their diſceite, and which haue better manifeſted the villany and the fornications of the great whoore of Babilon, inſomuch that thoſe whome men accompted to bée ſo earneſt and ſuch heretickes, haue begun by them to bée eſtéemed gentle and good men, in compariſon of the latter. And ſo they haue had of all ſortes, and yet they will vnderſtand nothing. Wherefore mée thincks they can no more pretende ignoraunce nor infirmitie, or any iuſt excuſe, but that it is tyme to aunſwere to a foole according to his fooliſhneſſe, to the ende hée thincke not alwaies Pro. 19. to bée wiſe. Wée muſt then let them to vnderſtand that men doe accompte them for ſuche as they are, and they muſt not any more ſpare them, ſith that they woulde waxe worſe and empaire if one ſhoulde kéepe them, and the more that one doth thincke to make them méeke and gentle in flattering them, they become the more ſauage, wilde, and madde. And therefore I thincke that thoſe that are of a good iudgement, and which doe conſider the thinges according to the truth, ſhall bée conſtrained to confeſſe that I flatter to much. Although that I doubt not but that one ſhal finde ſome which may ſay of me that which is ſayd commonly of the Aſſe, which woulde The fable of y Dogge and of the Aſſe. Apes required in the courte of Babilon. play wyth his maſter, as hée did ſée the dogge doe, ſtrikinge him and leaping vpon hym with his féete. I am very ſure that ſuch playes and games doe not pleaſe the king of Babilon and his court, and that they will not haue ſuche Apes, excepte they bée otherwiſe apparelled, then that poore Aſſe was. For they haue not accuſtomed that thoſe little Ladyes dogges, which make them ſporte and wagge the tayle, and which are learned and taught to Ladyes Doggs. runne and leape on the Ladyes and Gentlewomen, and thoſe pleaſaunt Apes and Marmeſettes for to make them paſtime. But the LORD wyll haue none other Apes in his Church, then ſuch dullardes as the world iudgeth them, which doe playe and ieſt earneſtly, and doe goe as they doe intende, in all ſimplicitie, without diſſemblinge that which ought not to bée diſſembled. Hée will not haue ſuch lyttle pleaſaunt dogges, for to bée a delite and pleaſure vnto Ladyes, but woulde haue good Maſtyes and great greyhoundes which are not to be carryed in the Bſa. 56. c. 10 The maſtyes & grayhounds of Ieſus Chriſt. Horat. Hae n •• gae ſeria ducunt, ridentem diccr Verum. Quid vetant. ſléeue, but for to barke and driue awaye the Wolfe from the folde. Wherefore if there bee men whiche in laughinge doe bite, they doe giue vs to vnderſtande that they take no great pleaſure, by ſuch playes and paſtimes, but that they woulde haue other paſtime and occaſion to ſpeake of better matters. Yet neuertheleſſe they doe ſhew vnto thoſe which doe loue the paſtyme, and which take Democritus. pleaſure in them as Democritus hath laughed and ſcoffed at the follies and dreames of men, that it is not nowe néede that they doe ſéeke any other matter. The courte To laugh at the popes coſt. of Antechriſt gyueth them ynough, and moſt worthyeſt to laugh at, and in the which one maye better ieſt wythout offending GOD, if one doe it wyth ſuch affection and ſuch modeſtie as is in theſe Dialogues. Thoſe alſo which ſhall bée totter and ſeuere, and which as Heraclitus Heraclitus. doe iudge the follies and miſeries of men more worthy of wéepinges and lamentations, then of laughings and ieſtinges, they ſhall haue héere matter ynoughe to wéepe, ſéeing the iudgement of GOD which hath bene, and is yet vpon the Chriſtian people bicauſe of our ſinnes, and deſpiſinge of his woorde. Inſomuch, that me thinckes that I haue not written any thing which may bring hurt vnto the Chriſtian religion.

And though I doe not profite very much, yet neuertheleſſe there wanted in mée no wyll. Wherefore I doe truſt that the good men will take all in the beſte parte: whome onely I feare to offende. If the wycked are angrye wythout a cauſe, I will leaue them for ſuch as they are: yet I ſpeake neuertheleſſe the veritie, although they will not take it. If the wiſe and learned cannot much profit, it is ſufficient for me that the poore ignoraunt people ſhould receiue ſome fruite: Although that ſuch a one doe thincke himſelfe very wiſe and learned, that he may yet finde ſome thing for to learne. It is very true that that matter requireth better to be intreated off in Latine then in French. For it conteineth things which would haue ben plainer & which would haue bene entreated off more briefly, the which peraduenture I may be rebuked for ouermuch prolixitie & tediouſnes. But there are many reaſons which are the cauſe. The firſt, is for that I am one of thoſe Oratours which know not to enter in talke, or begin any matter, nor which know not howe to leaue off. The ſecond, bicauſe that I doe write moſt of all for the ignorant and rude people, for whom we had néed to chew their meates a little, and to declare the matters more groſly y which they cannot vnderſtand in one word, as thoſe that are wiſe & learned, which wil comprehend it very eaſily, as thoſe which haue read the Authours out of whome I haue taken the matter. Therefore there is yet an other reaſon: that is, that I muſt vſe great circumlocutions and narrations for to expreſſe and declare that which in Latine or in Greeke myght bee ſpoken in one woorde. For the things are more harde vnto thoſe which haue not read the Greeke and Latine authours. But I haue tolde alreadye the cauſes which haue moued mée to write rather in this language then in an other. And if the matter bee worthy to bée put in the Latine tongue, if it pleaſe the Lorde, it may bée done at leaſure: or it maye moue the heart of ſome which will do it better. Be it as it is, it is to mée ſufficient, ſo that I doe ſerue a little the good. If I doe offende the Hipocrites, I would be contented that they bée offended with mée, ſo that they doe finde better taſt in all the other which haue ſpoken and written of the relygion a great deale better then I, and ſo that they haue them in ſuch honour and reuerence as they ought to haue. Hiſtories of our time. Alſo I thinke that none ſhall finde vnfitte for the matter many of the hiſtories of our time, the which I haue ſet in and mingled among theſe matters. For if it be lawfull to alleage the auncient hiſtoryes written by others, wherefore ſhould we not ſpeake of that which is done in our time when occaſion ſerueth? Sith that ſo many things do come dailye more worthy of remembraunce then many of thoſe which the auncients haue written? Wherefore I haue not eſtéemed and thoughte that to bée a thinge inconuenient nor vnworthy of remembraunce, which we our ſelues and our fathers are witneſſes. Alſo I haue put the quotations of the authours in the margents, out of whome I haue taken that which I haue alleaged, to the ende it ſhould not appeare that I haue inuented them of mine owne head, aſwell of the Philoſophers, Poets, Hiſtoriographers, as Doctors, Queſtionaries, Sophiſters, as of the auncient Doctors of the Church and holy Scriptures.

FINIS.
¶ THE ARGVMENT AND SVMME of the firſt Dialogue.

IN this firſt part and firſt Dialogue I doe amply entreat of the matters which concerne thoſe that be deceaſed, declaring the errours, abuſes, & ſuperſtitions, which are committed about them, and the falſe and diuerſe opinions which haue bene and yet are among men, aſwel touching the eſtate of the bodies as of the ſoules. And of hell, Limbus patrum and of Purgatorie. And how that which the ſuperſticious Chriſtians do about the dead, is nothing at all lyke vnto the woord of God, but is altogether taken of the Infidells & Panims. And for to enter into the matter, I bring in the perſons who take their theame and matter vpon a fermon which they heard of an holy father, entreating of ſuch matters. And although the matter might ſeeme wholy to be fayned, yet it hath the foundacion vppon a true hiſtory. For mine intent is partly in this firſt diſputacion, to rebuke the ſottiſh and vayne curioſitie of fooliſh Preachers and Doctors, who haue forſaken the principal points of the holy Scripture to occupy thēſelues vpō vnprofitable queſtions & vayne contemplations, & to enquire, of things that they cannot know and which wee haue not to doe withall. And which ſerue to none other ende but to hinder and let the poore Chriſtian people to ſeeke out the will of God, to induce and lead them to falſe religion, ſuperſticion, Idolatay and all Paganiſme. Alſo I declare the Arguments of the Popes Purgatorie with the Purgatorie of the Panims, and the ceremonies and ſuperſticions which they vſe about the dead, & out of what ſpring they iſſued, and what haue bene the purgations of the Panims which the Idolatrous Chriſtians do yet keepe: and how the Papiſticall Purgatory hath ſerued the inſatiable auarice of thoſe which doe lyue to deſtroy and deuoure all the poore world. Alſo how the prieſts Purgatorie is burned, how fire hath taken the ſame and what puniſhment is prepared for thoſe which go vnto ſtrange fire to be purged from their ſinnes any other then the fire of leſus Chriſt: and how the prieſts do diſagree both from the word of God, and from their owne doctrine, decrees and cannōs. After thoſe things we ſhal enter into the ſecōd part which ſhall entreat of the appearing of the ſpirites of thoſe that be dead. All theſe things ſhalbe yet more playnly vnderſtoode and better confirmed by the Dialogues following, of the which the laſt ſhalbe of the immortalitie of the ſoules and the reſurrection of the fleſh. Afterwardes we will come vnto the lyuing, and in the other parts wee ſhall enter into matters yet more graue, more neceſſary and of greater importance, for the preſent time, to ſhew what is the eſtate of the world & of relygion, and by what meanes that man which feareth God, and the poore troubled and doubtfull conſciences, may be aſſured and know what is the true Church & the truth, and wherevnto they may ſurely ſtay themſelues, and how they may be certeine what doctrine is of God. I haue intituled this firſt Dialogue the Alchymee of Purgatory, chiefely for two cauſes. The firſt bicauſe I declare how the auncient Panims and our prieſts after their example doe trauayle to extract the fifte eſſence of the ſoules which they melt in their furnaces of Purgatory. The other is, bicauſe from thoſe furnaces our prieſts do drawe out the Philoſophicall ſtone.

¶ For to enter then into the matter, Hillary beginneth, aſking his companions of the Sermon which they heard.
¶ THE FIRST DIALOGVE which is called the Alchymee of Purgatorie. The Speakers. Hillarius. Euſebius. Theophilus. Thomas. HIllarius.

If mine eyes haue not deceiued mée, I thinke I ſaw you all thrée to day at the Sermon: wherefore I deſire to know your opinions how the ſame pleaſed you, and what you thinke of the Preacher.

Euſebius.

As far as I can iudge, I thinke that he is very ſkilfull and cloquent: for he hath ſpoken very learnedly and deepely of matters ſo obſcure and profounde.

Hillarius.

He could not ſpeake more profoundly: For he hath pearced euen vnto y very centre of the earth: therfore I am the more abaſhed that he ſpake ſo cléerly of matters ſo obſcure, and of theſe darke places no man euer ſaw ought. For the Sunne neuer ſhineth there.

Theophilus.

As far as I could perceiue by him, I thinke that eyther he hath not bene in thoſe places of which he ſpake, or els if he were, it is long agoe. If the opinion of Iſydore be true, we ſhall haue very ſmall occaſion to giue credite to this ghoſtly father and to his preachinge.

Euſebius.

Hath Iſydore ben of an other opinion, then the reſt of the Chriſtian Doctors, touching this matter?

Theophilus.

There is none among the Chriſtians which doubteth that there is an hell, ſeeing that the holy Scripture rendereth ſo ſure and vndoubtefull a teſtimony with the which we ought to content our ſelues, not willyng to know any Hell & hell fire Mat 5 c. 25. Mat. 18. 18 Ma c •• 41. ſ 6 g 4. ob. 10. d. 12 further, then it hath reuealed it vnto vs. It ought to ſuffice vs which Ieſus Chriſt witneſſeth vnto vs, that there is an hell of eternall & vnquenchable fire, where the worme dieth not, but wher ther is euerlaſting horrour, weeping & gua hing of teeth: we need not to enquire of the place: for I thinke ther is none which deſireth to go thether. And therfore we haue néede to praye vnto GOD, that it woulde pleaſe him to giue vs his grace to know his will, and to be able to accompliſh it thorow his ſonne Ieſus Chriſt, to the ende we may auoide that hell fire and extreme darkeneſſe. We néede not much to ſtay to know in what place hell is, The bounds of hell The opiniōs of the Theologians Thom. in. 4. diſt 42 art. 2. D. 1. Richard. 4. diſt. 42. Plato in Phaedone. The opinion of Iſydore. Io. maio. 4. Sent diſt. 44. queſt. 1. whether it is in the centre of y earth, according to the common opinion of the Doctors & of Plato, which ſaith, y it is in the depth of the earth: or whether it is vnder the earth in the country of the Antipodes, according to the opinion of Iſydore, who ſayth that after the day of iudgement, the Sunne and the Moone ſhall kéepe themſelues ſo ſtedfaſte in heauen that they ſhall no more tourne round about the earth, but giue their lyght and brightneſſe, onely in that part of the world in y which we dwell, and that the damned ſhalbe all ſent away vnder the earth, into thoſe horrible darkeneſſe, and into thoſe places, in the which at this day, ſome men doe thinke, that the Antipodes doe dwell.

Hillarius.

If it were ſo that the Sunne and the Moone doth nowe ſhine there, wée maye thinke, that ſome one of the countrye of the Antipodes is come from thence, who hath declared and deſcribed to our Preacher the ſcituacion of hell, of Lymbo patrum, and of Purgatory, with al their confines in ſuch ſort and manner as he hath expounded them vnto vs.

Thomas.

You may ſaye what you will, and I will beléeue what pleaſeth mée, but I cannot thinke that he was euer there, or that hée hath euer heard any one ſpeake that came from thence, & hath ſo well viſited all the places theroff. For neuer in my lyfe I hearde it better deuiſed. There is neyther hall, chamber nor cloſet, cole-panne, kitchin, nor ſeller, chimney nor pot-hangers, great caudron nor lyttle caudron, chaynes nor fleſh-hookes and other inſernall vtenſills, but that he hath deſcribed and ſet them foorth ſo lyuely, as mée thinketh I ſée the thinges before mine eyes in ſuch ſort, that yet I am afrayde when I thinke on them. The Cyrographers and Notaryes are very dilygent and curious for to expreſſe & declare in their inſtruments and writings the ſituacion & lymtis of houſes and poſſeſſions of which they make writings off: But I haue not found any ſo ſkilfull and of ſuch habilitie who can bound and lymitte ſo perfectly the landes, as our preacher to day hath lymitted and bounded out hell, Limbus patrum and Purgatory. As far as I can perceiue he knoweth in what clymate they are: how many degrées, miles The diſcription of hell and places the one is from the other: of what ſide they are all ſcituated and placed, whether they bée on the Caſt, Weſt, North or South.

Hillarius.

You take not the matter am •• ſe. But you muſt not be abaſhed, if he and ſuch as he is, doe take ſo great paynes to bound and lymitte ſo perfectly thoſe places, and chiefely Purgatorie: For they Purgatory and lus reuenues haue no better poſſeſſion then this, which yéeldeth vnto them more profite and gaine, nor of which they receiue and gather vp more rents and reuenues. There is no realme, Lordſhip, lande nor heritage which bringeth more profite to their Lords & owners, then Purgatory doth bring vnto them. Wherefore it is no maruayle if they doe feare ſo much to looſe it and that their bounds and lymits ſhoulde be tranſported or changed any other where. Ptolomus and many other wiſe and excellent Geographers are eſtéemed to be very well learned, aſwell among the Greekes as the Latines. But I thinke that among all thoſe, there is not one, which in his Geography hath at any time ſo wel painted and deſcribed the earth with all the parts thereoff, countryes and regions as this our Doctor hath deſcribed and drawen out before our eyes, theſe low parts and inſeruall regions.

Thomas.

By that we may know, or at the leaſt preſume, that he ſpeaketh not onely by heare ſay, but that he hath bene there in proper perſon, or ls hath had ſome expert teacher in that Geography. For I doe ſée that the beſt Geographers and the moſt cumming Coſmographers doe faile oftentimes in the deſcription of the earth, and of many countryes and regions which are moſt familier to vs, and of which they may haue greateſt and moſt certeyne experience.

Hillarius.

Without ſéeking any further, we may try it in the French Cardes or Maps. There is not almoſt a country better knowne then Fraunce, neuertheleſſe we ſée oftentimes great errours in thoſe Cardes in the which it is deſcribed. Wherefore wée may well thincke that it maye ſo chaunce in other tables, mappes, and cardes conteminge the deſcription of heauen and earth and of the regions and countryes vnknowne.

Thomas.

I doubt not at all, but that this Monke hath the The inferuall mappes ſpirite for to compoſe and make a table and Mappe of theſe low countryes, better then the paynters haue paynted them out in the temples, or the Printers in the Shepheards Calēders. And therfore I deſire very much to ſpeke with him. For I haue taken in hande a iourney in the which he may helpe mée. For I hope that eyther he will ſhewe mee ſome good way, or els ſatiſfie mée in ſuch ſorte that peraduenture I ſhall ſaue the iourney and charges.

Hillarius.

What voyage is that which you haue taken vppon you? will you goe into Sicily?

Thomas.

What to doe in Sicily?

Hillarius.

To deſcend into hell: For I cannot vnderſtand The deſcending into hell in Sicily. any other thing by your talke, foraſmuch as you enquire after that Monke to accompliſh and ende your voyage. I thinke you will haue him for your guyde, to conduct you in that daungerous voyage, euen as Circe uyded Vlyſſes Homer iodſſ. 1. &. 11. Virg. Aeneld. 6. Ouid Meta. li. 14. to bring him to the ſpeach of Elpenor: and Sybilla Aeneas to conduct and bring him vnto the ſpeache of his father Anchiſes.

Thomas.

I thinke you are eyther a Prophet or a Diuine: you haue hitte the na •• e on the hea e, you haue not erred a whit from the matter. ut to what purpoſe ſpeake you vnto mée of Sicily? Is there any hauen, or any entrye, place, or denne, to deſcende into thoſe infernall and obſcure, horrible and moſt darkeſome countryes.

Hillarius.

What meane you to make all this circumſtāce & queſtionings? you make it ſo ſtrange as though you had neuer heard it ſpoken off before. Ther is nothing more The Poeticall diuinitie. common in the Poeticall Theologie.

Thomas.

You alleage vnto mee a goodly diuinitie. I haue nothing to doe with the Poets, nor with their fables and faynings. Is it not well knowne, that they be inuented of pleaſure, and there is no truth in them, but that they are moſt euident lyes.

Hillarius.

If you ſo lyttle eſteeme the teſtimonye of the Poets, I thinke you will not deſpiſe altogether the The common vvitneſſe. vulgar & common opinion which hath continued and endured ſo long time, and moreouer doth confirme it.

Thomas.

You bring mée into a faire land, and alleage vnto mée a teſtimony worthy of credite, for confirmation of the other, to ſet mée ouer vnto the common people: there is nothing more vnconſtant, more fooliſh, more mutable, nor more ready to beléeue all lyes, fables and follyes?

Hillarius.

I thinke y yet at the leaſt wiſe you wil not reiect the teſtimony of that holy man Odillo, Abbot of the Monks Odilus Abbot of Cluny. of Cluny, and of many orher Monkes very deuout, which haue followed him.

Thomas.

It may be that when I ſhall heare his opinion, eyther I will allow it or diſallow it. What ſayth hée?

Hillarius.

Peter of Amiens hath written that in the time of Pope Iohn the viij. About a thouſande Durant. ie Rat. dan o fi. lib. 7. Rub. de offi. or. Polid. Virg. de inuent. reli. lib. 6. c. 9. Aetna called Gibello mount in icily. yeares after the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt, Odillo was in Sicily, and bicauſe that he heard oftentimes the noyſe, cryes and bewaylings which were made continually, about that burning hill Aetna, called of the Italians at this day Gibello monte, did thinke it came from the Diuells lamenting that the ſoules of the faythfull deceaſed were deliuered from torments through the maſſes, vigiles, prayers, ſacrifices and offrings of the Chriſtians. And therfore he incontinent declared the ſame to his Monkes, and they all decréed together, that after they had offered their offerings the firſt day of Nouember, and celebrated the feaſte The feaſt of the dead. Supple. Chron. lib. 2. Feralia Satra of Saints in the honour of all Saints, they would in lyke manner the next day beeing holyday make prayers and riſons for the ſoules of all the faythfull deceaſed. Afterwarde in ſucceſſion of time others receiued and allowed that manner of doing, as good and holy.

Thomas.

What Parentali . reaſon had they to imagine that thoſe cryes & mourninges came of the lamentations that the Diuels made?

Hillarius.

I cannot vnderſtand that it hath had any other reaſon or foundation then the Poets, and the common people, to thincke that there was a place there to deſcende into Hell in Sicile. hell, and the place in which the ſoules of the wicked were tormented for their ſinnes, bicauſe that in that ſame mountaine there is a perpetuall fire which alwaies burneth, and Plini. li. 3. c. 2 hath done ſo of long time. Wherefore they haue thought that y damned were kept in thoſe great burning goulfes. By this ſame reaſon was Odillo and his Monkes moued, and were the Authours, that the Chriſtians gaue Anniuerſaries. themſelues to celebrate feaſtes, and make ſacrifiees for the dead in the month of Nouember, euen as the heathen Romaines did commonly vſe it in the month of February, by y Quid. Faſt. li. 2 Liui. li. 1. dec. 1. inſtitution & appointmēt of Numa Pompilius y ſecond king of the Romaines. Al the reaſon that moued Odillo procéeded but of ignoraunce, for y he vnderſtood not the cauſe whereof thoſe gronings, noiſe and feareful cryes which he hearde in Sicily about that mountaine did ariſe. But imagined that it was the Diuels which haled and fore themſelues by the haire, ſorrowing with great deſpite that they ſawe theſoules goe out of paines and tormentes. But his imagination hath brought no hurt to his couent, nor to all the other Monkes and Prieſtes. For that ſanie day, is the beſt faire that they haue all the yeare, and a time in which they make harueſt and vintage altogether, with not taking ouermuch paines. If the ſoules of the deceaſed haue as much gaine as they, they, may bée very ioyfull of the feaſt.

Thomas.

But I woulde gladly knowe, from whence thoſe cryes and mourninges did procéede, whether they came Lu r. li. 1. Hic Aetnea minantur. Murmura flam marum rurſum ſe colligere iras. from the Diuels, or from the ſoules of the dampned, or from thoſe which are kept in Purgatory, or of ſome other naturall cauſe.

Hillarius.

The cauſe is eaſie to bée knowne of him who wyll vnderſtande what is the ſituation and nature of the place. For of the one ſide is the 〈◊〉 u ibus crap es terum vt vis cuomatignes. Ad caelum qu ferant flamai ſulgur rurſum Clau. de rapt. proſerpi. li. 1. Sil. li. 14. Diodo. li. 6. &. 16 Polib. li. 1 elli puni •• S rabo. li. 6 roaringe of the Sea, which maketh an horrible noiſe, on the other ſide the greate goulfes of fire that ariſe and come out of the mounteyne. Wherefore when the vehementwindes doe blowe, and enter violently into the holes and caues that arethere, and mingle themſelues wyth thoſe vaines of brimſtone kindled with that impetous fire, wée muſt not meruaile when all thoſe thinges mixt and confuſed together, doe méete, if there are fearefull cryinges, and ſuch which the Poet hath deſcribed, ſaying. Lo here the hill that Aetna hight, moſt horrible to beholde Ouid Meta. li. 15 The diſcription of the hill Aetna. Thundring out and making cries, moſt terrible to be tolde. Which many times doth caſt frō it, of clowds that are ful darke, And alſo vvhirle vvinds that are great, vvith ſmoke that is ful black. And burning ſparkes of fire did fly, and flames that are moſt great Which from the fire roſe ſodeinly, and toucht the heauenly ſeat. Which oftentimes doth vomit out, the hovvels and the guts Of rockes and ſtones that are full hard, which in that hil ther lu kes.

Thomas.

I doe then much doubte, if it bée euen ſo as you ſaye, but that the good Odillo was deceyued, and that hée, and all his Monkes haue greatly dreamed. The poeticall fable of Enceladus and of the other Gyrantes. Vir. an d. li 3 Fama eſt E ••• ladi ſ muſtum flumine corpus Vigeri mole ha , ingentemque inſuper Aetnam impoſitam r ptis flammam ex pirare camini . Et ſeſſum quoti. s mutat l •• us intremere omnē. Murmure Trinacriam, & 〈◊〉 〈…〉

Hillarius.

They haue at the leaſt ſo much dreamed and thoſe which haue beléeued their dreames, as they who ſtayinge themſelues vppon the fables of Poets, haue thought that Enſeladus, Briarnis and the other Gyauntes, were buried vnder that great and burning hil of Aetna, after that Iupiter deſtroyed them with lightning and ouerthrewe them vppon the mounteines that they had made for to aſcend into heauen, when they warred agaynſt him. For euen as they imagined that thoſe fearefull and terrible Gyauntes were encloſed vnder that mounteyne, who remouinge themſelues from the one ſide to the other, dyd caſt and throwe foorth thoſe great and daungerous ••• tes, flaminge fyers, whoorlewindes and ſmoked: Thoſe héere doe put the Dyuels in ſlée e of the Gyants: And doe attribute vnto them that which the mounteyne doth naturallye. So as other dreamers and fo •• es haue done of the mounteine of Iſlande and Norwaye: of The mountains of Iſland and Norvvay. which they that haue written of thoſe Regyons & Countryes, doe wytneſſe that they are almoſt like vnto that hyll Aetna, and ſpecially about the borders of Norwaye. For they ſay that there is there a mounteyne commonly called Hechelbergo enuironed with the Sea, the moſt horrible Hechelbergo. and fearefull that is in the worlde. And for to make the tale better and the thing more meruaylous, they ſaye alſo, that there are hearde the cryinges, wéepinges and lamentations of the ſoules which goe into Hell, inſomuche as thoſe horrible cryes and noyſe are ſpreade and heard The crying of the damned. a myle rounde aboute. They adde moreouer that there are very great and meruaylous blacke Rauens & Crowes Rauens and hel crovves. which flye rounde about it makinge alſo horrible cryes, in ſuch ſort that they terrefie euery man that none bareth to approche nighe vnto that mounteine. Afterwards; Fountaines of exceſsiue coldeneſſe and heate. ther ariſeth out of the ſame two fountaines, whereof the one is of ſuch vehement and exceſſiue coldeneſſe, and the other of ſuch heate, that both of them are intollerable, and there is no Element howe colde or hotte ſoeuer it bée, but that they ſurmounte it, both in heate and coldeneſſe. And which is more in that ſame Countrey, towardes the South partes, as men ſaye, there is a place called Nadhegrin, in which the Dyuels of that Nadhegrin. viſible d uels. place doe appeare vnto men, whome they ſée before their eyes hauing bodies of the ayre.

Thomas.

Odillo might haue had better occaſion to haue ſituated Hell and Purgatory there, then in the hyll Aetna.

Hillarius.

It woulde haue had better, appearaunce, if thoſe thinges were true. But if wée ſhoulde ſtaye our ſelues vppon ſuch dreames and lyes, wée myght alſo forge an other Hell and Purgatory in Scotland, in which The do eful hil in Scotland. men ſay that there is a hill full of ſorrow & very fearfull, by reaſon of the cryes of thoſe that do wéepe and lament there. And in Thuringia there is a hill in which ther are heard Thuringia. moſt horrible noiſe & cryes: And y hath not onely the name to be frequēted with Faunes & Satyres which are a kinde of Diuels, which many waies haue ſeduced y Panims. But alſo ſome do affirme y they haue ſéene the ſame by experience. And ſome writers & Authours accōpted for men worthy of credite, haue written it.

Thomas.

There ſhould bée then many Helles and Purgatories by that accompt. But bicauſe I feare very much, that there are great follies and lyes in thoſe hiſtories, I thincke that it ſhoulde bée moſt ſure and expedient for mée, to take that way which I firſt purpoſed, then to take the way either in Sicily or in any of thoſe places that you haue named vnto mée. For the way is not much frequented nor knowne as that is which I haue taken vppon mée, except you haue touched the one of the countries, whether I would goe.

Hillarius.

Whether haue you then enterpriſed to goe?

Thomas.

I doe make mine accompt, to goe ſtraight into Scotland or into Ireland.

Hillarius.

Is there any way to deſcend into theſe infernall Regions and countries?

Thomas.

Haue you euer heard ſpoken of the voyage and Caues of Saint Patricke? doe you not remember the bookes that we had at The voyage of ſainct Patrickes purgatory. ſchoole when wée were little children?

Hillarius.

You make me now remember the ſaying of my Graundfather. Were we not happy in thoſe daies, that we had ſuch bookes in our handes, in ſtéed of ſome good Authour, and of the Bible and holy Scriptures? If wée conſider well the vnhappineſſe and miſery of that time and barberouſneſſe and ignoraunce both of God and all good diſcipline which then poſſeſſed all the worlde, and compare it with the mercy which GOD at this preſente doth vnto vs, wée haue good occaſion to render vnto him thanckes. Dooe you thincke that that booke, wherein is deſcribed the voyage of Sainct Patricke and ſuch other lyke, ful of fables, moſt ſottiſhe and brutiſh, were méete to giue any good doctrine vnto children, and that the newe teſtament had not bene a better for them to haue in their handes? Truely wée are in a good way, foraſmuch as wée bée already come vnto Saincte Patricke.

Thomas.

You knowe that thys caue is in Ireland.

Hillatius.

Some place it in Ireland, and others in Scotland: It is all one to mee whereſoeuer it bée, for I will make no voyage thether.

Thomas.

It is all one alſo to mée. For thoſe countries are not farre Scotland and Ireland. Eraſmu ••• n hiliad. va 〈…〉 in Commentae. ſuper pomp. mel. diſtant the one from the other: It is inough for mée, ſo that I may finde it. For that cauſe I haue determined to goe thether out of hand. But ſince I heard our Ghoſtly Father, I will not goe before I haue firſt ſpoken wyth him: and after I wyll rule my ſelfe according to the counſaile that he will giue mee.

Hillarius.

You doe either mocke or dreame?

Thomas.

That is no countrey, whereof wée ſhould mocke, foraſmuch as all thoſe that haue bene there haue loſt their laughing and all reioyſing.

Hillarius.

It is then lyke vnto the denne of Throphonius, which is in the country of Lebadia, of which the auncient To looſe the laughter. writers haue written almoſt all after the ſame ſort, as our dreamers haue done, of Sainct Patrickes hole or caue: and doubt not, but y the one fable hath engendred y other. Neuertheleſſe Throphonius denne. Lebadia philoſ r. •• as. chil. 1. ce t. 7. I doe not yet thincke that you ſpeake in earneſt.

Thomas.

You thinke that I am ſuch a mocker as you are.

Hillarius.

If you bée not a mocker, you are then a dreamer.

Thomas.

I ſléepe not whereby I ſhould dreame.

Hillarius.

No more alſo did our ghoſtly Preacher ſléepe to day: I neuer in all my life heard ſuch an olde dreamer dreame and take on in ſuch ſort. I beléeue no other thing but that he hath ſtudyed in the ſchoole of ſome olde doting witch full of lyings, from which hee brought this diuinitie.

Euſebius.

Are you not aſhamed ſo to mock & ſpeake againſt ſuch a vertuous and learned man as he is.

Hillarius.

I know not what knowledge and learning he may haue: But this I may ſurely ſay, that I neuer heard any thing of him, whereby I might knowe that there is either knowledge or wiſdome in him. If he had ſtudyed in humaino letters, I ſhould haue thought that he had read that hée preached either in the Poetries or verſes of Homere or Virgil, or of Homer. odiſsi. 〈◊〉 . Virg. anaed. 6. plutar in comment. de dam. Socra. ſome other Poets, as wel Greeke as Latine: or in Plutarke. For I am ſure y in thoſe Theologies a man ſhal finde that matter altogether entreated off almoſt after that ſort as he hath declared vnto vs, and chiefly in Plutarke who declareth Timarchus. moſt meruailous thinges, that Timarchus hath ſéene in the denne of Trophonius, which differ but a little from thoſe which we haue heard of our Ghoſtly father. But I greatly feare that he neuer profited ſo much in Greeke neither in Latine, that he could euer haue read thoſe authours, nor that he coulde haue dnderſtoode them, if hée ſhoulde haue read them. But for to ſpeake as I thincke, I rather The Shepheards Callender. Dantes. beléeue that he hath read it either in the Sepheardes Callender, or in Dantes. What age is hée off?

Thomas.

Wherefore doe you demaund his age?

Hillarius.

Bicauſe that if hée had lyued in the time of Alceſtis and Proteſilaus, either in the time of Hercules and Theſeus, or in the time of Vliſſes and Aeneas, whom the Poets doe witneſſe & affirme to haue bene in hell, and that they haue viſited all thoſe countries and chambers, as well the Limbus patrum as Purgatory, and alſo thoſe goodly and pleaſaunt fieldes Eliſeas, wée might preſume and thincke that he hath ſpoken vnto them, and hath learned of them that Theology. But hée muſt bée then at the leaſt more then a thouſande and nine hundreth yeares olde, and that hée muſt Iohn. 12. b. 9 A ſained fable vpon the hiſtorie of Lazarus after the imitation of the poets. bée twiſe ſo olde as Mathuſala.

Thomas.

Haue wée not Lazarus whome Ieſus Chriſt raiſed to lyfe who hath bene longe time after all thoſe, who could tell what there is? For thou canſt not ſaye that the ſame is a fable as the others are?

Hillarius.

Yet the Ghoſtly Father could not haue ſpoken vnto him, except hée were at the leaſt more then fiftene hundreth yeares olde. I doe not denie his reſurrection, but I doe denie all thoſe lyings which are added vnto the hiſtory of the Goſpell.

Thomas.

Could he not very well haue heard it of thoſe who through longe ſucceſſion haue learned and vnderſtanded it of thoſe who haue hearde it of Lazarus.

Hillarius.

Héere are a great many of héereſaies, I would gladly knowe who was the firſt, vnto whom Lazarus declared it, and whether Lazarus hath ſpoken more amply then Ieſus Chriſt and all his Prophets and Apoſtles. Doe wée not plainely ſée howe wée doe ieſte with God, tourning his woorkes and miracles into fables, and Poets inuentions? Could the enemies of our Religion do more? Doe not theſe olde dreamers who haue dreamed and inuented out ſuch fables, make of Lazarus an other Alceſtis, Theſeus, Vliſſes or Aeneas who are come from hell, for to declare what is done there? To what other end doo all th ſ inuentions and fabulous narrations of olde fooles ſerue. But for to call into doubt Gods truth, and for to giue occaſion vnto the mockers and contemners of God and of his woord, to laugh and make a ſcoffe of the Chriſtian Religion, and the Doctrine of the Goſpell. As Pithagoras, Lucrecia, Lucian and many others haue ſcoffed at the Ouid Me . 15 fables and inuentions of the Poets, touching their Hell, and of the vaine credulitie and great fooliſhneſſe of the ignorant people, who gaue credit vnto them. As we haue done to the dreames of thoſe Caphards and oltes, who would make ſo many partes of the infernall Regions, as the Coſmographers haue made of the earth. For as they haue deuyded The diuiſion of the inſernal Coſmographie. it into Aſia, Africa and Europa: Euen ſo haue thoſe deuided the infernal habitations into the Limbus patrum, Purgatory, & the hell of the dampned. And haue made all thoſe countryes inhabited, and ſo full of people that there is not one little corner nor angle, but that all is full, chiefly in purgatory, if we will beléeue our Prieſtes and Monkes. For the ſoules goe thether dayly by thouſandes.

Theophilus.

Our Lord Ieſus Chriſt raiſed not Lazarus, nor the others, whom he hath called from death to lyfe, for to holde & kéepe men by ſuch mockeryes, and for to make the worde of GOD lyke vnto the woorke of Poetes. For his ſimplicitie, grauitie, nor yet hys maieſtye, can beare and ſuffer it. It ſufficeth hym to teache I ſufficeth to knovv of Hell. vs that there is a Hell, and wée ought to contente our ſelues therewith, without enquiringe where it is, nor what it is. For thoſe who through the iuſt iudgement of God ſhall bée there condemned, ſhall knowe it by prouing and féeling it to ſoone, and more then they would. The elect and bleſſed who through Ieſus Chriſt are delyuered, ſtudy not to know any further, then God hath reuealed vnto them, that they haue felt it in their conſciences, when they haue offended, and that they haue bene grieued and preſſed downe with the féeling of their ſinnes.

Hillarius.

What will you ſay if this Ghoſtly father be one Tranſmigration of pythagora . of Pithagoras Diſciples, and of that ſame opinion? and that, the ſoule of euery one of them, whom of late the Poets doe witneſſe to be deſcended into hel, were entered into his body, inſomuch that he was one of the very ſame?

Theophilus.

Wée might very well haue thought no leſſe, in hearing theſe dreames and lyes: But that wée knewe for certein that the opinion of Pithagoras is falſe (although that many among the Iewes are yet dronken therewith) & that the ſame which the Poets and Monkes haue inuented are nothing els but dreames and lyings. But yet although our Monke were ſome Theſeus, Vliſſes or Pithagoras, yet he might very well be deceiued. For ſithence that thoſe The yre begun in purgatory. were in thoſe regions and countryes, the fire hath begun there to kindle, which hath burned all the wals of thoſe dyuerſe habitations and infernall chambers, forged, made and builded firſt by the Poets, and after wards by the Monkes and Prieſts, inſomuch that there remained neither Limbus patrum, or yet Purgatory, but Hell onely, where that inextinguible fire is.

Thomas.

Y u do ſpeake of the Limbus patrum and of Purgatory, as though ther were none, & that the ſame that hath bene preached vnto vs, was inuented of pleaſure, & that they were but fables. But doth not the Scripture make mention of it? do you thinke that ſo many good prechers which haue ben in times paſt would haue taught ſuch things, if they had not be true?

Theophilus.

I haue heard many preach y the children y are borne dead, The children borne dead. & all thoſe which do die before t ey be baptized, go ſtraight way vnto the Lymbus patrum wherein they haue their chambers aparte, ſeperated from hell and Purgatory, and that they ſhall neuer enter into Paradiſe, but that they ſhall be depriued for euer from y ioyes theroff. Afterwards there was nothing that I heard ſo much commended in the ſermons, as the ſoules of Purgatory, vnto whom alſo they giue chambers apart, and doe kéepe them as priſoners, in thoſe dungeons and priſons, vntill ſuch time as they haue The priſoners of P rgatory. payd their raunſome.

Euſebius.

Doe you not ſtedfaſtly beléeue that the ſame is true, that ther is a Lymbe and a Purgatory?

Theophilus.

I would beléeue it without any doubt or contradiction, if I had read it aſwell in the olde Plato in gorgia & phaedone pl t r. in comde dam. and new teſtament, as in the bookes of Plato and of Plutarch and ſuch other which were of the ſame opinion.

Hillarius.

You ought yet to haue added amonge y Greeke Poets Orpheus, and Homere and Virgile among the Latine Poets: who haue ſo well deſcribed the Lymbe, hell, Purgatory, and the Popes paradiſe, that I thinke it is not poſſible to paynt and ſet them out better. And I cannot beléeue but that he was inſpired with the ſame ſpirite by The ſpirite, the Authour of pgatory. which they haue ſpoken who haue forged and inuented vnto vs thoſe Lymbes and Purgatoryes, and with which thoſe were inſpired, who did ſit in the Councells in which ſuch doctrine was allowed and confirmed: peraduenture he may finde ſome thing in the diſcription of Virgile which may ſeeme a lyttle to differ from the Popes Theologie: But notwithſtanding if the matters are wel examined and tryed, one cannot finde ſo great errours, that for thein hée may be iudged an hereticke in the Popes church, nor yet repugnance which is not more eaſie to agrée, then to make Scotus and Thomas Aquinas to agrée together: the Reals The Limbe vvher the children are and No •• alls, the Sophiſtes and Doctors queſtionaries that be among them.

But for to proue it, giue eare what the Poet ſpeaketh n ſuch ſort as I may ſpeake in our propre tongue: And for to begin in order I wil recite vnt thee firſt the eſcription of t e •• mbe here the children are, ſaying. Anone vvere voyces heard, and piteous cryes, and vvaylings ſh •• ll Virg. A •• t. 6 Of ſoules of tender babes, and infants vveeping voyde of ſkill. That pleſure ſvveet of life did neuer taſt, but from their breſt Vntimely death them tooke, and Fortune grim hath down oppreſt.

He giueth vnto the lyttle children their chamber apart, and appoynteth their dwelling at the entring in of hell, the which he deſcribeth more horrible and fearefull, ſaying. Yet ſyts a vvorſe v ithin, Than hell it ſelfe that ſinke-hole ſ eepe, Tvvo times as broad deſcēds, tvvo times as headlōg dovvn right deep Hell. A •• c. li 6 As heauen vpright is hye, if men thereto from thence might peepe.

Ouer and beſides theſe two places, he addeth yet two others, to wéete, Purgatory, and the fieldes E ſeas, of which we will ſpeake off héereafter when his tourne commeth. Now al theſe which are lodged in thoſe diuers chambers, are handled euery one of them according to their merites, and puniſhed after diuers ſorts. For the torments and paynes are giuen vnto them eyther more grieu ns and cruel, or els more tollerable & gentle, according to uery ones mirites and deſertes. He putteth and placeth a large priſon, déepe, and darke, horrible and fearefull, in the moſt loweſt part of hell, from which thoſe ſhall neuer depart which once haue bene throwne therein. That priſon is the very hell it ſelfe, wherein the great and moſt grieuous ſinnes and offences are puniſhed, and that they are •• ſanable and can by no meanes be purged, as theſe: ſacriledge, murder, tyranny, vyolences, erecrable whoredome, and ſuch other crimes, and chiefely thoſe of the Tyrants, Kings, Princes and Lords, whom Plato of which In Gorgia. the ſins of y princ s and tyrants. proceeded this Philoſoph e, lodged all in hell, if in ſléede to be good Princes and Paſtours, they haue bene tyrants, and the deuourers of the people.

Thomas.

I doe already héere perceiue a great agreeing with our Prieſts and Monkes. As concerning the Lymbes of the lyttle children, there is no more difference, but that Virgile putteth them all there, and our prieſts doe not lodge & put but thoſe which are dead without being baptized.

Hillarius.

He is not ſo rude and vngentle vnto them. For he depriueth them not of all ioy and conſolation, as theſe our prieſts do the poore little children of the Chriſtians.

Thomas.

As touching hell I doe not much miſtyke the opinion of Plato. Firſt bicauſe it approcheth nigh to the veritie of the holy Scriptures, and that he declareth the iuſt iudgement of God vppon the tyrants. For it is good reaſon, ſith that there is none who may chaſtice & correct them in this world, and y they will not be in ſubiection neyther to God nor man, but do what they liſt, they ſhould haue double puniſhment in the other world: And that they ſhould vomitte and ſpew vp agayne their great cruelties, vyolences, and great enormities that they haue committed, bicauſe they feared neyther iuſtice nor puniſhment.

Theophilus.

Although that the witneſſe of the holy Scriptures is ſufficient for vs, yet this ought further to moue vs, & to confound the Infidlls when The ver •• e of. the tru •• . we doe ſee the vertue of the truth to be ſo puiſſaunt and of ſuch force that it conſtrayneth Philoſophers, Poets and others, who haue bene ignorant of the knowledge of God, to confeſſe it and to beare witneſſe thereoff.

Thomas.

But me thinkes that our Prieſts and Monks do much differ from Plato & Virgile in y they do lodge y richeſt people and the great Princes and Lords ſooner in Purgatory then in Hel.

Hillarius.

Do you not know the cauſe? The riches of Purgatory. There came no profite vnto Plato nor Virgile of the Purgatory, as commeth vnto thoſe, & beléeue that although they had any profite, they were of a better conſcience, and that for their owne perticuler gayne they would not haue ſo ſeduced the poore ignorant people. For they do ſhew foorth by their writings, that they had a certeyne feare and knowledge of God, more then we may acknowledge in theſe our prieſtes. For they watche after the deade bodyes, as Plato and Virgle. the Rauens doe vppon carrion. And if they can méete with any dead man that hath his purſe well ſtuffed with money, wherewith hée is able to paye his raunſome, they will be ſure to make him tell who hath eaten the fat, they will put him in ſuch a place, from whence hee cannot come out before they haue taken ſome fat from him. For they are the tyrants of tyrants and the pillers of the great The tyrants of tyrants, and the pillers of the vſarers. pillers and Ʋſurers, whom they will not ſuffer to be broiled and tormented of the Diuells, but they will be their hangmen themſelues, take away that office from them to whom God hath giuen it.

Thomas.

They ſhalbe thē much tormēted by this accompt. For they ſhalbe cruelly handled in this world, and alſo in the other after their death, as they haue vexed b tormented y worlde whilſt they were alyue. And ſuffer them not notwithſtanding to fall into y hands of the Diuells. But I would gladly know what payne the other haue that haue committed ſmaller ſinnes.

Hillarius.

Plato and Virgile do lodge theſe in Purgatory, The Purgatory of Plato. In Gorgia. plutar. deſera. muni. vind. The ſynnes of the ſimple people. The ſynnes of princes. eſpecially the ſimple people & which haue not bene of great credite and authoritie. Wherefore they could not haue ſo great lycence to doe euill as the others. And if they had committed any fault, they had not the power ſo much to hurt the people as the others had. For the ſinnes of the Princes doe not hurt onely themſelues: But as well by them as by their euill example they doe hurte and deſtroye all the worlde, where the ſimple people doe hurt but themſelues. And therefore they did thinke that their ſins were ſanable, and that they might be purged. For that cauſe, they condemned them not vnto eternall dampuation: For The differences of ſynnes and the diuerſitie of the eſtates of thoſe that be dead they thought y they had not committed euils inough for to be damned, & that ther was ſome remedie to be healed. Alſo they lodged them not at y firſt daſh in y fields of bliſeas, as the other great and vertuous men, who thorowe their vertue haue merited to be incontinently receiued into bleſſedneſſe and toye, or in the number of Gods.

Thomas.

Thoſe then which were good people, and which had not the power to doe ſo euill as the other, doe go into Purgatory againſt their wils. Neuertheles I am ſure that God will not held them excuſed therfore. For e regardeth the heart, will and the affections, and not onely the workes as the Philoſophers doe. Our prieſts differ not much from that opinion. For they Cannoniſe & lodge among the Saints Cnnonizacion of the Saints. Extra. de. cele. miſſ. 13. q. 2. Tempus. thoſe whome they doe iudge to haue bene moſt vertuous and holyeſt and the ſoules perfectly good, the which doe fly ſtraight into heauen, and haue no néede of our good déedes.

Hillarius.

That is to wéete the moſt greateſt Hypocrites, ſuperſtitious and Idolaters, & thoſe which haue done moſt for them, and that haue beſt nouriſhed and fed their fat bellyes.

Thomas.

They doe lodge in Purgatory thoſe who haue not accompliſhed héere their penaunce, which neuertheleſſe dyed confeſſed and repentaunt, or which do not carry deadly ſinne with them, but onely veniall ſinnes, the which may be purged by the fire. For there is ſome remedy for thoſe.

Hillarius.

Such is their doctrine: But notwithſtanding when it commeth to triall, they neyther haue regarde to mortall nor yet veniall ſinnes, but ſooner to the riches or to the pouertie. It is all one with them whether the ſinnes be mortall or veniall, ſanable or inſanable, ſo that the dead hath wherewith to paye their drougs & medicines, & money for his raunſome, and letters of grace that they make for them by their buls and pardons. And as touching the poore, of whome they haue no profite, it is to them all one whether they go, be it into Paradiſe, Hell, or Purgatory. For they haue no care of the ſoules, but onely of their purſes.

Thomas.

I haue yet one thing to demaunde of thée. Doe they ſay that there is fire in y Poets Purgatory as there is in y of the prieſts?

Hillarius.

It ſéemeth to mée that y Poets are a lyttle more reaſonable and more merciful then the prieſts and Monks. For they make not ſuch broyling and roſting of the poore ſoules.

Thomas.

How then?

Hillarius.

Bicauſe that they haue aſſigned the payne a little eaſier and lyghter, according to euery ones miſdéedes. For they condempne not all generally to y fire. But they do make thrée differences, The differences of ſynnes and the diuerlitie of the paynes. according to the greatneſſe and ſmalneſſe of ſinnes. Thoſe that haue ſinned moſt grieuouſly, and which are moſt full and ſtuffe with ſinnes, and which are moſt earthly and moſt hardeſt to be purged, béeing ſo harde glewed and tyed to the ſoule, that it cannot be pluckt away, nor made cleane by no meanes but thorow the fire, are put and caſt into the hot furnace. For they muſt be melted all new agayne. The other that are not altogether ſo filthy & vile and that haue not their ſinnes ſo glewed in the ſoule that one cannot pul them away, are holden for a certeine time within the great goulfes of water, for to be there waſhed and made cleane. Ther are yet others y are leſſe faultie and guyltie, & which haue committed but certeyne ſmall ſins, that hath no neede of ſuch ſtrong purgation. And therefore they are hanged but a lyttle in the ayre for to winde them. For they néede but to haue a lytle winde for to blowe away the duſt that The diuerſitie of purgations cleaueth faſt to the ſoule, bicauſe of the coniunction that it hath with his body and his fleſhe.

Thomas.

As farre as I perceiue they doe with the ſoules in that Purgatorye as we doe with our apparayle, ſheetes, veſſell and mettall. For when we haue any clothes, or ſhéetes that are duſtie, or whereof we doubt the Moths and Wormes: we ſtretch them abroad and hang them vppon a pearch in the ayre for to winde and cleane them. And if ther be any ſpot or ſtaine that will not eaſely come out, we waſh them with water. And if that ſufficeth not, we ſope them, or put them in the bucke and bucke them, or els delyuer them to the ſcourers for to take out the ſteyne. Alſo if we haue mettall that is ruſty and canckred & which hath néede to be made cleane, we caſt it in the fire, which maketh it very cleane and conſumeth the droſſe and ruſt and other falſe mettall, and ſeperateth it from the pure and fine mettall.

Hillarius.

Thereby you maye knowe that the Poets haue had more witte and reaſon and better colour ſo to do then the Prieſtes. For they haue conſidered the nature of the ſinnes, and of the ſinners together, as a good Phiſition The Phiſicions of the ſoule. doth behold the completion of thoſe that are ſicke, for to giue vnto euery one a conuenient and ſit remedy for his diſeaſe.

For they haue regarde that mans bodye was made of the foure Elements, and that the completion and the affections of man doe follow the temperatneſſe of the body, and the nature of the elements, of which they were made. Foraſmuch then as the body is the houſe and habitacion of the ſoule, & that the ſoule hath bene holden within that earthly body as in a priſon, and darke dungeon, it is impoſſible, but that it is corrupted and defiled with the filthineſſe of that infectious body, as he which ſhall depart out of an infectious and ſtincking priſon. And therefore Plato and the other Philoſophers and Poets, which followed his opinion, haue thought, that the ſoules had néede of ſome purgation, after that they were ſeperated from the body, bicauſe that after their departing, it was impoſſible but that they ſhould carry with them and kéepe ſome filthineſſe of that corrupt fleſh, bicauſe of the coniunction, conuerſation and familiaritie, that they had together. Neuertheleſſe bicauſe that the bodyes are not all of one complexion, but according to the diſpoſition and temperateneſſe of the elements, of which they are made, ſome are more earthely and other ſome more heauenly, & according to the doctrine that they haue receiued, and the exerciſe that they haue had in vertue, ſome more vicious or vertuous then the others: Euen ſo haue they eſtéemed and thought that the ſoules did differ, according to the difference of the bodies from which they came out. They haue then conſidered that there are ſome ſinnes that are more thin, eaſie & lighter then others, holding more of the nature of the ayre, and of the winde, then of the earth. And therefore they muſt purge them by the element, which approcheth néereſt to their nature, and which ſéemeth for them the beſt remedie.

The others that are more heauy and wayghtie, as the water is more heauyer and wayghtyer then the ayre and winde, are waſhed in the water: For they doe holde moſt of the nature of the water. And therefore they put them in the bucke, wherein they driue, beat and waſh them very cleane.

Beſides thoſe there are other more wayghtyer and heauyer and altogether earthlye, whome neyther the wynd nor the water can make cleane. And therfore y Soules that haue ben ſo defiled with y filthineſſe of their vile & wicked body, & ſo much giuen vnto y pleaſures of y body, that they are almoſt degenerated & become earthly, are purged by the fire. For thei haue néede of a hotter & ſtronger elemēt for to purifie them, and for to conſume all filthe and droſſe, that there remayne nothing but the pure mettall of the celeſtiall nature. For contraries are healed by contraries. But leaſt you ſhould thinke that I am the authour and inuentour of that Philoſophie, and that I ſpeake theſe thinges of mine owne head and for my profite, behold how the Poet ſpeaketh, in whoſe verſes you ſhal finde compriſed in few words a great part of that Platonicall & Plutarchall Theologie, where he writeth of the ſoules ſeperated from the body after this manner.

MOreouer, when their end of lyfe, and lyght doth them forſake. Virg. Aene. 6. Purgatory. Yet can they not their ſins, nor ſorrows all poore ſouls of ſhake. Nor all contagions fleſhly, from them voydes, but muſt of neede Much things cogēdred long, by wondrous means at laſt out ſpread. Therefore they plagued bene, and for their former faults and ſins Their ſundry paynes they bide, ſom hye in ayre doth hang on pins. Some fleeting bene in flouds, & deepe in gulfs themſelues they tire Till ſinnes away be waſht, or cleanſed cleere with purging fire. Each one of vs our penaunce heere abydes, then ſent we bee To Paradiſe at laſt, we fevv fields of ioy doe ſee. The fields liſeas. Till compaſſe long of time, by perfect courſe hath purged quite, Our former cloddred ſpots, and pure hath left our ghoſtly ſpirite And ſences pure of ſoule, and ſimple ſparkes of heauenly lyght.
Thomas.

I doe thinke that the Alcumiſtes haue taken theire foundacion vppon that Philoſophie . For that is the true manner for to extract the fifte eſſence. But I thinke that thoſe Phiſiciens of the ſoules had néede to ſée their vrine for to make them better know their complexion, and to giue vnto them the medicine and purgation méete for the ſame.

Hill •• ins.

It ſhould be then néedefull that the Soules that are in Hell and in Purgatorye ſhoulde aſwell haue, Eſculapius or Coſme and Daiman for their Phiſitious, as the Gods and Saints haue in heauen, and by a The phiſitions and paticaries of hell. better reaſon. For the Gods and the Saints haue no more néede neither of medicine nor of purgation as the poore ſoules haue that are kept in Purgatory. I know not how the auncient Poets and Painims haue gyuen vnto Mercury the office of Phiſicke, for to practice his medicines in Mercury. Hell, with which hée guideth the ſoules, for to make them to paſſe ouer the floudes by Charon the ferry man: For he had bene very méete and proper for the ſoules.

Thomas.

But when they ſhall haue a Phiſition, who ſhall bée their Poticary, for to make their drouges?

Hillarius.

The Prieſtes, which haue their ſhops full, The purging drougs of the panims. and are better furniſhed with them then euer the Panims were, which had chiefly thrée ſortes of drougs, for the purgacions as well of the quicke as the dead, the which Ouid hath comprehended in thrée woordes, ſaying: Three times the olde man vvaſhed vvas, vvith Water faire & cleere Ouid. And vvith hot fire and Sulphur ſtrong, he purged doth appeare.

Beſides theſe purgations of the water, fire, & brimſtone, Cuperent luſtrari ſi qua darentur Sulphura cum t di , a u ſi ſores humida laurus. they had alſo their holy winnowinges or faminges, which they vſed chiefly at the feaſtes and ſacrifices of God Baccus, the which they made with a fanne conſecrated for that pourpoſe.

Theophilus.

Beholde the dreamings wherein men doe fall, yea the moſt wiſeſt, when they gyue themſelues The holy fannings of Baccus to play the Philoſopher with heauenly things after their owne fantaſie and minde without the ſpirite of God, and that they doe ſéeke the purgation of their ſinnes in their purgatories, beſides Ieſus Chriſt.

Thomas.

Mée thinckes that wée doe yet reteine almoſt all thoſe cuſtomes. For wée doe light and offer torches, tapers and candels of Waxe, as well for the dead, as for thoſe that are aliue. And the firſt thing that we muſt haue, when one dyeth, are the torches to leade hym to hye graue. And all the yeare after wée muſt haue Candels lighted vpon his Sepulcher, and after to offer them vnto The torches & lights at the burials. the Prieſtes.

Hillarius.

It is bicauſe they ſée not.

Thomas.

Whom do you meane? the Prieſts or thoſe that bée dead?

Hillarius.

Both the one & the other. We cannot deny but that the dead bodyes haue loſt their ſight, & that they are in darkeneſſe, as touching their body. But neuertheleſſe the ſhining and brightneſſe of the torches Virg. Caſſum lumine lugent. ſerueth them to no pourpoſe. I thincke alſo that the ſoule hath no neede of them. For if it goe into Paradiſe, it hath the Angels to carry it thether, as the ſoule of Lazarus was carryed by the Angels into Abrahams boſome. For that Luc. 16. 2. 〈◊〉 hath light inough and the Angels alſo wyth the brightneſſe of God. Wherefore they haue not to doe wyth our light, that cannot ſerue for the ſoule, but for the body onely. If the ſoule goe into hell, there are guides inough for to bring it thether, and it is not nowe neceſſary that we do giue light to it. It hath the Angels of Sathan altogether contrarie to the other Angels to carry it thether.

Thomas.

But if it go into Purgatory, for that it is ſo déep, hath it no néede of light for to conduct them through thoſe darke places?

Hillarius.

If that which they ſaye bée true, there is fire inough, without putting any more vnto it. And if that fire bée not ſufficient for them, I thincke that the light of our torches cannot giue light there. For if the Sunne beames and his brightneſſe cannot enter and pearce through, what may wée hope of our fire? You may then vnderſtande by theſe reaſons that all theſe lights ſerue nothinge at all for the dead, nor profite them, neither for the body nor yet the ſoule. It muſt be then that they doe profite the Prieſtes, or els it is a loſt labour. But wherein can they ſerue for them? For if they bee blinde, and that the Sunne light helpeth them not, no more ſhall they ſee by the illumination of the torches and candels. If they doe ſee cléere inough, they haue no néede: for the cléereneſſe of the Sunne ought to ſuffice them: except they buryed them in the nyght, as the Panims dyd bury the poore that had not money to pay for their funerall pompe.

Thomas.

It muſt then bée that they are eyther madde The burying of the poore in the night. & out of their wyt, or els that they would ſhew by the ſame, that thoſe that do ſuch things are fooles and depriued of all vnderſtanding.

Hillarius.

I thincke that they would do In Apotheg. Diogenes. as Diogenes did, who at noone dayes lighted a candle, and did ſéeke for men in the middle of the Market wyth a lanterne.

Thomas.

To what pourpoſe dyd hée the ſame?

Hillarius.

For to make men to vnderſtande, that they were beaſtes wythout reaſon and vnderſtanding, and that hée had much a doe to finde men, that is to ſaye, wyſe men, both of wit and iudgement, although hée ſought them with a lanterns. Should hée not haue more occaſion to doe the ſame nowe at this preſent time? For to what ende do all thoſe lights ſerue, but for to declare that we are the ſucceſſours The imitacion of the Panims. of the Panims who after the ſame ſort vſed torches, and candels at the burials and funerals of their dead? For we haue not read in all the holy Scriptures that euer the true ſeruauntes of God haue lighted candels for the dead. Nor that they were euer in ſuch ſuperſtition. Alſo we néed not to doubt but that the holy Water wherewith wée The holy vvater. ſprinkle the graues of the dead, is alſo taken of the immitation of the Panims.

Theophilus.

I doubt it not. It is very true, that the auncient The baptiſmes. and vvaſhinges of the hvish people Leuit. 16. c. Nomb. 19. a. 4 Heb. 9. d. 13. people of God had certeine waſhings & certeine baptiſmes, for their purifications: not that they did thinck that the filthineſſe and vncleaneneſſe of the ſoule & conſcience, could be waſhed & made cleane, by the water & corruptible Elements. For ſith that the ſoule is a ſpirit, it muſt haue a ſpirituall purgation, agreeing to his nature, and not corporall.

Thomas.

What profit then do they receiue of ſuch ceremonies?

Theophilus.

They did the ſame for to teſtifie & witneſſe that they were ſinners, polluted & vncleane, and that they had need of a purgation, the which they could not finde in themſelues, but muſte ſéeke it of others. Foraſmuch then as they acknowledge themſelues ſinners, and in makinge open confeſſion by thoſe exteriour and outwarde waſhings, and do witneſſe that the bloude of Ieſus Chriſt was neceſſarie for them for the waſhinge awaye of their ſins, they pleaſed by that obedience and confeſſion, God, and by the faith that they had in Ieſus Chriſt, figured by thoſe ceremonies and ſacramentes, whom they did looke for to bée their Sauiour. They did truely communicate the bloud of Ieſus, which for them ought to haue bene ſhed, as wée doe by the baptiſme, ſauing but that wée had all things more excellent then they. But wée doe not finde that they euer baptized the dead, nor ſprinkled their Sepulchres with coniured Water.

Hillarius.

Wée reade that the heathen Prieſtes vſed in their purgations, the water of the ſea, with which they ſprinckled that which they would purge: Proclus de ſacrif. & mag. Salt vvater. The propertie of Salt. Of which Proclus that noble Philoſopher the Platoniſt yeldeth the reaſon, ſaying that ſuch water hath the propertie to purge, bicauſe it is ſalt, and that the ſalt hath in it ſome portion of the fire, and holdeth ſomewhat of his Nature. That ſame maketh mée to thincke that our Prieſtes for that ſame cauſe dyd put ſalte in their holy Water. For before they dyd coniure the Water, they dyd firſt coniure the ſalte, and after dyd put it into the Water.

Thomas.

They dyd it after the example of Eliſeus.

Theophilus.

But Eliſeus dyd not caſt the ſalt into the The exemple of Eliſeus. 4. Reg. 2. d. 21 De conſecr. daſt. 3. cap. Aquam. water, for to coniure the Diuels there wyth, but hath done it for to purge and make it cleane, bicauſe that it was infected and poiſoned, ſo much y none could drincke of it. And notwithſtanding that Eliſeus dyd put ſalte in it, yet neuertheleſſe the ſalt of his nature had not the propertie to correct and amend the corruption of the Water, if the vertue of God had not wrought and done it nuraculouſly: As it is declared by the applications of the thinges, which Ieſus The ſpittle of Ieſus Chriſt. Mar. 7. d. 3 Chriſt vſed, as in putting the ſpittle vpon the tongues of thoſe that were dumme, for to make them ſpeake: or vpon the eyes of the blinde, for to make them ſee: or wythin Iohn. 9. a, 6 the eares of thoſe that were deafe for to make them heare: not bicauſe that hée coulde not dooe that wythout ſuche applications, as hée hath very well declared in a The applicatiōs of Ieſus Chriſt. great many other of his woorkes: For howe oftentimes hath hée healed them in touching them onely, either by at. 6. a 3 Mat. 9 〈…〉 Mar. 5. c. 29 the hand, as the leapers, or by y gowne, as y woman which was diſeaſed with the iſſue of bloude, and others, without either ſéeing or touching them, as the ſon of y Centurion: Mat. 8. a. 5 But euen as thereby hée woulde declare that al procéeded from his vertue and power, & not of the creatures. Alſo ſometime hée vſed them for to let vs to vnderſtande, that when hée woulde they ſhoulde ſerue, hée gaue them ſuch vertue and propertie as it pleaſeth him, & for to learne vs that wée ought not to deſpiſe the meanes that hée hath The meanes of God. gyuen vnto vs, how vile ſoeuer our reaſon iudgeth them to bée. For whatſoeuer they may bée, ſo that hee hath ordeined them, and that wée haue hys promiſe, wée muſte not doubt but by them hée doth that which hée hath promyſed. Therefore hée hath taken thinges, which had not of their owne nature the vertue to bringe to paſſe thoſe effectes, to whiche they haue bene applyed, that all men might knowe, that from hym onely procéeded the vertue, and not of any ordinary or naturall cauſe. But theſe miraculous woorkes, are nothinge at all lyke vnto thoſe which our Prieſtes doe: and theire ceremonies, haue not ſuch promiſes. If by that they could remedy ſhe corrupt waters, as Eliſeus did, we will acknowledge the gyft to woorke myracles to bée in them which was in Eliſeus. But to what ende ſerueth the ſalt in the water?

Hillarius.

To what ende ſerueth it to bée put into the Infants ſalted. The ſalt in the Baptiſme. mouthes of the little children, when they baptize them?

Theophilus.

As much as their ſpittle profited the infants béeing put into their mouthes, vppon the tongue and vppon the eares.

Hillarius.

Mée thinckes that I doe ſee Apes, which would counterfet al y woorkes of Ieſus Chriſt: Apes that coū terfet Ieſus Chriſt. At the leaſt wiſe all their dooings are as thoſe of the Apes, which doth but little and yet euill. If they could by their ſpittle make the little children and thoſe that are dumme The ſpittle of the Prieſtes. ſpeake: or make the blinde ſée, and the deafe heare, I would counſaile them to vſe it often: But if I had a little childe, I would not haue that ſuch ſwiniſh & pockie Merchaunts as are among them ſhould breath ouer his face, nor put their ſpittle in his mouth. They doe call their ſalt, y ſalt of wiſdome: And in ſtéed to ſeaſon vs & to make vs wiſe through the ſalt of the woord of God: They ſalt vs in the throat at The ſalt of vviſdome. Accipe ſal ſapientiae. The ſalt of gods vvord. The ſalt of the prieſtes. the baptiſme. I thincke that they feared y the wine would not abide drincking, & that we ſhould not be good bibbers. Wherefore they would ſeaſon vs in good time. I beléeue that they greatly feared leaſt we ſhould become Turkes, and leaſt we ſhould caſt vp the wine, if they ſalted not wel the throate, as men doe vnto their ſhéepe. If they coulde with their ſalt make the fooles to become wiſe, I woulde The ſeaſoning of fooles. thinck it good to ſalt al the fooliſh people as men do ſalt the fat larde, throughout all the body not onely in the throat.

Thomas.

I would not giue y counſaile. For then the ſalt would ware very déere, if Saloman hath ſaid true, wryting, Eccle. 1. that the number of the fooles are infinit. Hlilarius. Thy reaſon is good. For y inconuenience which thou ſpeakeſt off would follow, and an other more greater: To wéet, that S. Maturyn who healed the fooles, ſhould looſe his occupation: Beſios that I beléeue that the ſalt, although there Sainct Ma •• in. be great quantitie & ſtore of it, wil not much profit y ſoules when the Prieſtes doe mingle them with the Water. For the diſeaſe is very incurable. But for to retourne to our Prieſts, I doo beléeue that of that ſalt & Water, they would make ſuch potage for the ſoules, as my Mother did potage for the ſoules. once make for hir ſelfe & for me & my little brother which were not much aboue twelue or xiij. yeares of age, without putting into it eitheir Oile or Butter, bicauſe that ſhe would haue vs to faſt with hir with bread & water: For if ther had bene any fatneſſe in the broth or potage, it had not bene a perfect faſt. If it bée ſo, our Prieſts on this ſide the ſea, which dwell farre from it, ſhould haue better coulour & cauſe to ſalt & ſeaſon the water, then thoſe y dwell hard by it. For if they would make potage for the ſoules, they ſhall finde inough of ſuch ſodden Water in the ſea, & they ſhall not néede to ſeeke after the example of Eliſeus for to make him their Authour: For he was neuer ſuch a Cooke: But Alexander. 1 the firſt inuentour of holy vvater. they muſt giue the honour of that inuētion vnto Pope Alexander the firſt of that name. For if they will purge the dead through water, I woulde gyue them counſaile rather platine in vit. Alex. 1. de conſecra. diſt. 3 cap. aquam. The bathes of the dead. to waſh them altogether with hotte Water, as the Panims dyd theirs, and call that waſhing the laſt bath or waſhing, euen as our Prieſts doo call their laſt an cling or vnction, the latter Sacrament: In which they doe héerein differ from the Panims, that they anoynted men a lyttle before they dye, & the Panims anointed them afterwardes. Wherefore their vnction was a little more latter. But leaſt you ſhould thincke that I ſpeake wythout authoritie, as many Diuines and Preachers doe, when they doo preache their owne fables and dreames, I will bring out firſt for mine Authours that auncient Poet Ennius, ſaying. Ennius. When death vvith dreadfull dart, bereft, king Tarquin of his life His body vvaſht and nointed vvas, by handes of his ovvne vvife.

And Virgile ſpeakinge of the burninge of Miſenus, ſayth: Some brought the Water vvarme, in Caudrōs hot they ſet in flowre Virg. Aene. 6 The body colde they vvaſh, a precious ointment on they powre.

If the water could any thing profite the deade, it were better to make for them a great bath, & to plunge all their body, in a great tub of Water, and to waſh them well for a good ſpace, then to ſprinckle them ſo little. For me ſéemeth that that manner of dooing is more proper for to kindle the fire of Purgatory, if the Water doth deſcend thether, then for to quench it. And the ſame I wyll proue by authoritie and by examdle. I wyll firſt proue it by the authoritie of many good Phiſitions, which ſay that when a man is very drie for want of drincke, it is better for him to drincke a good draught at once then to ſippe often: For that ſame doth not quenche the heate that is in the body, but kindleth it the more. And to the ende that The examples of the Smithes. it doe not ſéeme that they ſpeake that wythout reaſon, they doe alſo alleadge the example of the Smythes, the which I will bring foorth for my ſeconde argument, which is infallible, inaſmuch as it is alwayes confirmed by experience. For wée ſée that when they woulde haue their To vvhat ende ſerueth y vvashing of the deade bodies. coales burne well, and to giue great heat they ſprinckle thē with water, which they haue alwayes ready, wyth a little ſprinckle or beſome, as the Prieſtes haue them in their holy water ſtocke. There is yet an other reaſon, for which I doe finde the manner of the Panims better and more lowable, bicauſe that at the leaſtwiſe that ſhall ſerue for the dead, for to proue whether they bée dead or not: For it Thoſe that are aliue reputed to be dead. chaunceth oftentimes through ſome diſeaſe, that the ſpirite is ſo locked and encloſed in the body, that man loſeth altogether his breath, in ſuch ſort that one can by no meanes perceiue it, but iudgeth him to bée dead, and ſo hée is deceiued. By that meanes ſometimes ſome haue bene buryed quicke: The which thing ought very much to bée feared in all ſuffocations and chokings, and chiefly of the matrice Suffocations. of women, and alſo in the time of the peſtilence or plague: wherein many times it hath bene found that they The time of peſtilence. haue brought to bée buryed thoſe who were found aliue. Wherefore it is not méete to bury any dead body to ſodeine, eſpecially when hée dyeth ſodeinly. For y may very well ſometime happen vnto man, which we haue proued in ſome beaſtes, namely in the Dormouſe, which haue bene The Dormouſe. found ſo faſt of ſléepe in the Winter, that it is not poſſible to awake them: As it hath ben many times proued in ſome of them, who although they were cut a ſunder in the middle did not wag nor ſtur vntill ſuch time as they are put into hot ſething water. And to that ende and pourpoſe many Plini. Nat hiſt. li. 7. cap. 52. Val. Max. li. 1. cap. 8 A. Auiola L. Lam a. Hiſtoriographers and namely Pliny maketh mention of one Attilius Auiola, & Lucius Lamia, that after that their bodies were caſt vpon the woode for to be burned after the cuſtome of the auncient Romaines, did ſtand right vp when they felt the heate of the fire, and there taried ſtil. For none could ſuccour & helpe them bicauſe y fire was kindled about them, but were burned all aliue.

Thomas.

Thoſe haue no néed to go into purgatory. For they haue ben purged inough alredy.

Hillarius.

For y cauſe y panims dyd not burne the bodyes of thoſe that dyed incontinently, but kept them ſeauen dayes, and waſhed them in hot water, and bewayled and lamented them with a loude voyce many times, as we Singing after the dead. doe vnto thoſe that doe ſounde or faynt, when any fayntneſſe of heart hath taken them. And after when they haue bewayled them the laſt time, they doe burne them the eight day, and the nynthe day they bury their aſhes. For that cauſe doe they alſo celebrate the nyne dayes feaſte for the ſoule of the dead.

Thomas.

If that which you ſpeake off be true, we do but a lyttle differ from them. For our prieſts doe cry after them with ſo loud a voyce, that if they be not deafe or altogether dead, they would awake.

Hillarius.

There is no difference, but that we are more fooliſh & more mad then the Panims. For the Panims do not crye after the dead, but vntill they are burned and their aſhes buryed: But our Prieſtes doe crye after them ouer their Tombes and Sepulchers, twentie, thirtie, fortie, yea a hundreth yeares after their death, and although they are altogether conſumed to duſte. But I finde them a greate deale wiſer and better aduiſed in that matter, for that they doe ſprinkle theire Sepulchers with water onely, and not with wine, as the Panims that did ſhed out great aboundaunce of wine, and milke vppon the Sepulchers, and To offer vvine for the dead. more lyberally then thoſe doe the holy water.

Thomas.

They were very fooles, doe they thinke that that wine deſcendeth into Purgatory, for to giue drincke to the ſoules of the dead, or the bodyes that were in the Sepulchers?

HIllarius.

We are aſmuch fooles if we do thinke that the holye water, wherewith we ſprinkle the Sepulchers and Churchyards, doth deſcend into Purgatory for to quench and put out the fire. For when the prieſt maketh his Aſperges in the Maſſe, and in caſting the holy water vppon the people, if he doe ſée any that putteth not off his cappe or bonet for to receiue that holy coniured and charmed water, he cryeth out vppon him and calleth him Lutherian and Hereticke. Neuertheleſſe if their holy water had ſuch ſtrength to penetrate and goe thorow into Purgatory, it is meruayle if it cannot aſwell pearce and goe thorow a cappe or bonet, without putting it of the head.

Thomas.

From whence thinke you that that manner to To ſprinkle the ſepulchers with vvater. ſprinkle the Scpulchers with water did firſt come?

Hillarius.

Truly I know not: excepte it be done in ſtéede that as the Panims after the burninge did ſprinkle with water all thoſe that were there preſent, for to purifie them The purifications at the funeralls. from the pollution and filth that they might receiue, in approching nigh the dead: with which they did thinke themſelues defiled. And in ſtéede that the Panims did purifie thoſe that be alyue, our Prieſtes will purifie thoſe that bée dead, and when they are vppon the earthe and vnder the earthe: Or peraduenture that cuſtome firſt came or tooke his beginninge, for that the Panims did decke and To beutifie the ſepulchers with flovvers. beautifie their Sepulchers with goodly flowers. Afterwards they ſprinkeled them with water, to make them continue the longer freſh and ſwéete. The which is vſed at The cuſtome of the Bigordains. Bag teres. Ratio diui off. de offi. mor. li. 7. Reiſerſpeeg. Sermo dominie. 20 poſt Trinita. this day in the country of Bigore, in the Citie of Bagnieres hard by the hills Pyrenes: And amonge ſome other Chriſtians, aſwel in Almaigne as in other countryes, who doe put hats or garlands of flowers, eyther of Baye or of Iuye within the béere vnder the body of the dead, bicauſe they ſhould kéepe a long time their verdure and ſwéetneſſe. But bicauſe peraduenture you may deſire the witneſſe of all theſe things, which I haue now declared vnto you of the Panims, I would y you ſhould heare thē ſpeake themſelues, as already before we haue done it, tranſlating word for woorde their Latine verſe into Engliſhe rime, to the end that they may kéepe the better their ſtile.

Marke well then the Prince and chiefe of the Poets, touching the cryes and lamentations that they make after the dead, ſpeaking after this manner of the burying of Polidorus.

And holy bloud in baſins brought, we poure and laſt of all Virg. Aen. 3. We ſhright, and on his ſoule our laſt with great cryes out wee call.

And as touching the effuſion of the wine, the ſprincklyng of the water and of flowers, the which he hath compriſed altogether, marke what he ſayth at the funeralls of Miſenus.

Hen falne his ſinders were, and longer blaſe did not endure Aene. 6. His reliques & remaine of duſt, with wines they waſhed pure. Then Choryney his bones, in braſen coffin bright did cloſe And ſprinklyng vvater pure, about his mates three times he goes. And drops of ſacred devv, with Olyue palmes on them did ſhake, And compaſſe bleſt them all, and ſentence laſt he ſadly ſpake. Requieſeant in pace. To fields of ioy thy ſoule, and endeleſſe reſt we doe betake.

And in an other place ſpeaking of the Anniuerſary that Aeneas did for his father Anchiſes ſayth. E from the counſel came with thouſāds thick in mightie thrōg Virg. Aene. 9 Vnto his fathers tom be, in mids of all his Princes ſtrong. Two bowles of bleſſed vvine, in ſolemn guiſe he caſt on groūd, And milke in baſins tvvayne, about the tombe he poured round. And tvvayne of ſacred bloud, then all the graue he ſpred & layd, With flovvres of purple hevves, and thus at laſt full lovvd he prayd.

Thou haſt heard the words of the Poet, or at the leaſt the ſence of them, which haue giuen mée occaſion to thinke that which I haue tolde vnto thée. Neuertheleſſe it may bée that our prieſts haue inuented that manner to ſprinkle the Sepulchers with water, for to ſpare the wine, the whiche they had rather drincke then to ſhedde it, and they will not bée ſo prodigall in ſpending the wyne ſo much as they doe the water.

Thomas.

We doe not ſpare it therefore. For we are compelled to giue drinke to the ſoules all the yeare.

Hillarius.

We are the more fooles: But our Prieſtes are wiſer then the Panims. For they haue no regarde to giue the ſoules drinke, nor to poure it vppon the earthe, for to ſprinkle the Sepulchers: but doe poure it into their bellyes, and ſprinkle their conſciences, and will keepe the lawe of Numa ky e of the Romaynes, ſaying: Doe The •• vv of Numa. not poure out the wine vppon the aſhes and Sepulchers of Vino rogum ne reſpergito. the dead.

Thomas.

They are then the Lieuetenaunts of the ſoules, but I would haue no ſuch Lieuetenants at my table. I had rather to giue them charge to faſt for mée, then to eate, & had rather haue them héerem my Lieuetenants. But let vs alſo ſpeake of the wynnowings that you haue ſet foorth for the thirde manner of Purgatory, y which the auncients had and vſed. I know not whether we vſe them towards the dead: But I haue ſéene them vſed towardes thoſe that be alyue. I haue ſéene them vſed towardes thoſe that be alyue. I haue ſéene the prieſtes to winde the women and lyttle children with the platine, meſſell and corporall cloth in the Maſſe. But I know not to what end the Demoſtb. in Aeſ chi. Virg. Georg. 1. Et miſtica vannus Ia •• bi. winde can ſerue for y ſoules in Purgatory, but for to blow their fire.

Hillarius.

I would counſayle them to haue a Fanne, as the Panims had, which was made holy for to make their holy winnowings. When I haue throughlye conſidered it, I doe thinke that our Prieſtes and Monkes cannot giue ſo good reaſon of y that they do, as y Panims. And for to tell the truthe, mée thinketh that they are lyke vnto thoſe Emperiques, that haue but one receyte for all Emperiques. diſeaſes and complexions, for al ages, times and countries, who doe kil more then they do heale: or for to make y compariſon Melters. more proper, they make me to remēber thoſe Surgions which doe greaſe thoſe that haue the goute and the pocks, whome they cauſe al to paſſe thorow their furnace, for to melt them all anew.

Theophilus.

Sith that they diſpiſe and contemne the The Purgatory of thoſe that haue the poxe. Goſpell, and that by the ſame they will not be made newe creatures, forſaking their olde Adam, & the concupiſcence of their fleſh, it is good reaſon, that they haue ſuch Smithes and melters for to make them new agayne. And ſith that men doe make no puniſhment. God through his iuſt iudgement will make them to feele that fire, for to quench the fire of concupiſcence which burneth in their heart and vaines, if they can conſider it, which is for theire profite, and to draw them from their whoredome.

Thomas.

Men haue The dyet. now founde out, that they can heale thorow the dyet without melting them.

Hillarius.

I doe greatly feare, that if our Prieſts & Monkes learne none other occupation and ſcience, & that they finde out none other drougs for to purge ſinnes, that they ſhall not finde héereafter any great trade, but ſhalbe conſtrayned to make the dyet themſelues, and the Alcumy with their téeth, the which they doe feare greatly. For men will giue them ſo lyttle to eat, that I greatly doubte that they néede not to learne to faſte and to lyue in more greater ſobrietie and abſtinence, for to coole them a little. For ſith that the fire hath begun to kindle with in their furnace, as Theophilus hath ſayd, and that all is conſumed and burned except hell, it is much to be feared that the regiſter and rentall of theire reuenues with all their rentes The rentall of Purgatory. that come vnto them yearely of Purgatory be not altogether conſumed and melted. I doe thinke that there is no The Art for to teach y prieſtes to be ſober. better remedy for to correct their whoredome, & to learne them ſobrietie and to kéepe a good dyet, then to take from them their Purgatory. Wherfore y Souldiers were not altogether The ſalutacion of the Souldiers vnto the holy fathers euill aduiſed, nor did not euill vnderſtande that matter, who aunſwered to thoſe holy fathers, in ſtéede of a great curſe when they ſaluted them, with their Pax vobis & pax ſit huic Domini: Dominus auferat vobis Purgatorium. O holy father (ſay they.) They doe praye that the Souldiers may haue peace, and the Souldiers to the contrary doe pray for them that God would take from them their Purgatory. And doe ſhew the reaſon. For wee lyue ſaye they by the warre, as you doe of Purgatorye, and you would take it from vs, and giue vnto vs peace. Wherfore we pray vnto God that he would alſo take from you the Purgatory, and you ſhalbe as much eſtoniſhed as we, and doe thinke that you ſhall haue no more to eate their we haue.

Thomas.

You are of his opinion whome I demaunded not long ſince the expoſition of a place that is in the Goſpel, Mat. 17 d at To driue ou Diuels thorow faſting & prayer. in which Ieſus Chriſt ſpeaking of him y was poſſeſſed with a Diuell, whom his Diſciples could not heale, ſaith: This kinde of Diuells cannot be driuen out but by faſting and prayer.

Hillarius.

What expoſition doth he giue vnto thée vppon the ſame?

Thomas.

That the Prieſtes and Monkes were of that kinde of diuells, that they cannot be driuen away but by prayer and faſting, and therefore ſaith he, giue them nothing to eate, but let them faſt as long as they haue made you faſt, and pray vnto God for them.

Hillarius.

Beholde a verie good receite, the which will not coſt verie much at the Apothicaries.

Theophilus.

But wée muſt not ſo ieſt and ſcoffe with Gods woorde.

Thomas.

Notwithſtanding he that aunſwered vnto me ſo and vnto many other that were preſent, was one of your people and one of your goodly goſpellers.

Theophilus.

I denye not but that wee haue many ſuch, which are good Carnal Goſpellers goſpellers in not giuing any thing vnto the Prieſtes, nor yet in offering any thing vnto them. But that is not ſufficient: Sith that they accompt the Prieſtes and Moukes for Diuells, I woulde gladly that they ſhould practiſe with themſelues that doctrine of Ieſus Chriſt, and that they woulde not be onely goſpellers in eating of fleſh all dayes a like, and in not offering no more vnto the Prieſtes, nor vnto their images: But that they woulde giue themſelues to pray vnto God, to deliuer his Church from falſe prophets and ſheperdes, and for to prouide true Prieſtes that doe confeſſe and preach his goſpell. And to the The faſtings & prayers of the Chriſtinas ende that their prayers ſhould be the more feruent & done with greater faith, I do alſo deſire that they woulde liue more ſoberly then they haue done, and that they would faſt after the manner of the true ſeruauntes of God, for to bee more attentiue and feruent in their prayers, and that they woulde giue almes vnto the poore, of the goods of Ieſus Chriſt that men haue ſtollen from his members, for to giue them to the Prieſtes.

Thomas.

I am of thine opinion. For as touching the riſide we, I ſée that almoſt euerye one wilbe come a goſpeller in that point, that is in giuing little vnto y Prieſtes. But after all theſe matters, I would gladly that you woulde declare vnto me, when and howe the fire hath firſt begun in Purgatorie, and ſithence what time it is burned?

Theophilus.

Sithence that the Goſpel of Ieſus Chriſt hath béene preached by the Apoſtles.

Thomas.

Me thinketh that you ſpeake againſt Hillarie, Hovv Purgatory is burned and al the catholicke Church. For if it had béene burned ſo long time agon, what Purgatorie ſhould the Prieſtes haue had ſithence?

Theophilus.

You muſt vnderſtande, that ſithence the ruines and decayed places thereof haue béene repayred and amended by them, as an old houſe that men doe reedifie & amend, after that it is decayed. But ſithence theſe thirtie or twentie yeares, the fire hath begun to kindle againe, and hath conſumed and waſted it altogether. Therefore I doe ſay, that either the holy father the preacher was neuer there, or elſe it is long time ſithence: Wherefore he coulde not be aduertiſed of the houſhold that they kéepe there.

Thomas.

Then I pray you, wherefore is not Hell as well burned which is more dangerous, Hell & in which there is greater fire, then either in y Limbe, or in Purgatorie?

Theophilus.

If you had well vnderſtanded that which hath béene alreadie told you, I néeded not nowe to ſatiſfie againe your demaunde. The Limbe and Purgatorie are burned bicauſe they were builded and ſet vp with mens hands, who can make no worke to continue any long time, but that it wilbe rotten in longe continuance, or elſe deſtroyed with the fire whiche conſumeth all 2. Pet 3. d Hell and the paines of hell are eternal things. But hell is an other thing: there are verie ſtronge walles, which will continue for euer. For euen as God, which is eternall hath builded with his owne hande thoſe goodly celeſtiall pallaces, and hath planted that pleaſant and delectable paradiſe, for to receiue his children and ſeruants into the fruition and pleaſure of the eternall life and felicitie: So hath he conſtituted & appointed for to giue vnto the wicked according to their iniquitie, and to puniſh them as a righteous iudge for their execrable crimes & offences, the fire of Hell in which y worme dieth not nor y fire is neuer Mar. 9. g. 4 4 Eſa, 66. g. 24 Eſa. 30 g. 30. quēched. For as witneſſeth y prophet Eſay: The Lord doth breath forth, thorow y wind of his wrath & indignatiō, & doth cauſe the flouds of Brimſtone to flow out for euer, thorow his wrath and vengeance, inſomuch that there is neuer fire there lacking.

Thomas.

But how hath the fire begun in Purgatory rather ſitheus the time that you haue ſpoken, then it did before?

Theophilus.

I do meruayle that in this ſo long time it hath not bene done, and how it could ſo long continue, conſidering the tyranny that was there exerciſed. For ſithens that it was reedyfied and buylded agayne, ther went no more any into Paradiſe nor yet into Hell, but all taryed in Purgatory. Ther was neyther poore nor rich but that all were put in there: and they could not be ſuffered to depart although that they had paid their raunſome two or thrée times, eſpecially when there is wherof to take. For there are ſuch, that after they haue bene kepte there already one or two hundreth yeares, yet they haue bene conſtrayned to diſburſe yearely, dayly and hourely new money, for to haue bulls and pardons, for to haue Maſſes, Ʋigiles, Requiems, Libera me, and for to celebrate Yereminds, Anniuerſaryes, for to pay obites, and a great many other ſorts of gatherings, tributes and rents, that it is impoſſible to number them.

Hillarius.

I thinke that there ſhould be goodly and rich mines of gold & ſiluer. I know not whether that fire hath melted & conſumed it al together. For ther was in times paſt great ſtore, that almoſt all the golde and ſiluer of the world, and all the riches and treaſures of the Chriſtians are all gone thether. The Panims held Pluto for the God of hell and of riches, bicauſe they thought him to dwell in Pluto. thoſe low countryes, to which the ſoules did goe: and bycauſe that all the treaſures and riches doe come from the earth, and that one ſhall finde th r the mynes of gold and of ſiluer. But the more I do thinke on the folly of the Panims, ſo much the more doe I finde ours to be out of reaſon, ſauing that we haue in deede that which they had but in figure and imagining. For we haue the Pope which is the very Pluto. For he hath both Hell and Paradiſe to ſell. Hée is kinge of Hell, Lymbe and of Purgatory. Hée is Eacus, Minos, and Radamantus. For he iudgeth the oore ſoules, as it pleaſeth him, and condemneth them to the Limbe, Purgatory or in hell when it pleaſeth him, & as often as he ſéeth good. And God knoweth what mines of golde and ſiluer, what treaſures & goods he draweth vnto him: in ſuch ſort that we may very well call him Pluto, Mammon, God of the earth and vnder the earth, king of Hell and of all his territories. The more I conſider the thing, ſo much y more it maketh me aſtonied. For I haue read many hiſtories which make mention of many Tyrants and great théeues, which haue bene couetous and raueners without all meaſure: But I know not, whether a man ſhall finde many, or To demaund tribute of the dead. one onely that hath cauſed tribute to be paide by the dead, as be doth dayly among the Chriſtians. If one ſhall finde any, I beléeue at the leaſt that he hath not ſo long compelled the dead to pay tribute. Wée may very well ſay that among the Chriſtians is accompliſhed the prouerbe of the auncientes, who ſpeake of thoſe that with wrong & violence Ariſto. li. 2 R eto. goe about to haue and catch, they demaund tribute of the dead and the meale and flowre of Images: willing alſo by that kinde of ſpeaking, to rebuke thoſe that wil enrich themſelues by vnhoneſt & vnlawfull meanes, & which dooe ſéeke profit of thoſe ſmall & vile thinges, as the Emperour Veſpaſian, who cauſed tribute to be paide of the vryne: and of vile things, as of bawdry, euen as the Pope did that receiued tribute of whoores and of brothell houſes that are at Rome. One may alſo ſpeake it of thoſe that get money of all men, without any difference either of friendes, poore or Sueto in ve •• aſ. Tribute of v •• ne & of the ſtevves. of the beggers, and in the ende, of thoſe that are deade. But that Prouerbe coulde neuer bée better applyed, then to our Prieſtes and Monkes. Veſpaſian althoughe hée was otherwyſe a good Emperour, hath bene taxed of couetouſneſſe for that tribute that hée receyued of the vryne. And when his ſonne Titus who was aſhamed, Veſpaſian & Titus S •• to in Veſpaſ. admoniſhed him, hée cauſed him to ſmell at hys noſe the money hée receyued, afterwarde aſked hym, whether hée dyd ſmell the vryne? When Titus had aunſwered hym, that no, hée ſayde vnto him then? All ſauour is good ſo that money doe come. The ſauour of the gaine is good which way ſoeuer it doe come and of what thing ſoeuer it ix i bonus odor exre qu •• libet. B •• ry ſauour is good ſo that mony come. bée. Our Prieſtes haue kepte well that prouerbe and knowe very well to practiſe it. For notwithſtanding that the dead carrens of whom they take money, doe ſtincke, it ſufficeth them ſo that the money doth not ſtincke. The Romaine Princes haue bene in the olde time much deſpiſed, The auarice of the Romaines Necrocorinth a. for that they haue digged vp the monuments of the Corinthians, and haue carryed awaye their Images and pictures of braſſe. But what ſhall men ſay of theſe héere? They are not content with the diſmes, prebendes, benefices, rentes and reuenewes that they haue continually, but The Chriſtians contributaries before they be borne and after they be dead. wée muſt gyue them newe money dayly, after that wée bée conceyued in our Mothers belly, vntill an hundreth yeares after wée bée deade and more. If our Mother that beareth vs doe take any hurt bicauſe of hir childe, ſhée ſhall make incontinently a vowe vnto ſome Sainct, and ſhall cauſe Maſſes to bée ſayde, and ſhall bringe money vnto the Prieſt, and ſhall binde hir ſonne to kéepe the vowe and to doe the like when he commeth to age. Are wée not already appointed to paye a raunſome in our Mothers belly? Doe wée not begin to pay tribute, before wée bée borne? Afterwardes if the childe bée borne? hée ſhall not bée baptized, nor can be a Chriſtian, excepte you dooe Baptiſme. paye money. Beholde the happy houre that wée haue immedeatly at the enteringe into the Churche. Muſte the childe bée anealed and confirmed? hée muſt paye, for they will not laye onely their handes vppon hym, nor hée Confirmation ſhal not haue the holy Oyle & Creame, except that he haue Confeſsion Singing of Maſſes. ready money. Will hée bée confeſſed? hée muſt paye. Will he haue Maſſes & prayers ſaid for him? he muſt pay. Will hée receiue the Lordes ſupper? he muſt buye Ieſus The Supper. Chriſt with ready money.

Theophilus.

Yet their money were but a ſmall tryfle and a thing of nothing, if that that they did, were accordinge to Gods ordinaunce: But it is altogether contrary.

Hillarius.

Will hée marrie? hée cannot bée wedded Marriage. but that hée muſt paye. Will hée bée a Prieſt? GOD To take orders. knoweth howo oft hée muſt put his hande into his pourſe before y he hath paſſed thorow all their orders. But after hée wyll make the poore people paye for it. Doth hée fall ſicke and will hée bée anealed? and haue his laſt Sacrament? Extrem vnctiō. hée muſt paye. I dooe not knowe howe, but that wée maye bée all good Arithmeticians, althoughe wée haue neuer ſéene Arithmaticke nor yet caſtinge of accomptes. For wée doe practiſe all our lyfe tyme no other Arithmeticians. & the ſchole of Arithmaticke. ſcience with them. Wée néede not to ſende our children vnto Schoolemaiſters for to learne them to accompte, cifre and number. For they maye learne verye well with them. They will neither conſecrate nor coniure not ſo much as a ſtone, chalice, candle, or a droppe of water, they will not ſo much as lifte vp their hande for to make a croſſe and bleſſe but with two fingers wythoute putting out all their hande, without ſome hope of gaine. They will not ſo muche as to bleſſe a roote, a graine of The bleſsings of the Miſſell, the Portus and of the Manuel of the Prieſtes. Benedictio ladi, ſalis, & ouorum Benedictio raſurni. Benedictio pera & baculi. Benedictio anuli & lecti. Benedictio panis, et ſeminum. Benedictio domus nou . Benedictio eaſula. Benedictio ad omnia. ſalte, or of wheate, an egge or a morſell of chéefe, or a roote when one woulde ſéeth it, or the ſcrippe or hooked ſtaffe of a Pilgrime, when hée woulde goe on his voiage, or the ringe or the bed of one that is wedded, but that they muſt haue ſome thing.

Thomas.

They do meddle with a great many of things if they doe all that.

Hillarius.

Their Miſſels, Porteſſes and Manuels may beare wytneſſe, if you will not beléeue mée. But you may well perceiue and knowe that they haue not innented all thoſe manner of dooinges, but thereby the better to get money euery where, the which they gette verye eaſely and without any great trauaile, but onely in making of croſſes, and mumblinge ſome wordes after the manner of inchaunters. But into what daunger I doe caſte my ſelfe? I had rather to drawe out all the water of the ſea, then to declare all the manner of the pillings that they dooe vnto vs. The Hiſtoriographers dooe accompte as deteſtable crymes the tributes, and vnhoneſte gaynes, the rapines and extorcions that the Tyrantes and Romaine The rapines and extortions of 〈◊〉 the Emperour Caligula. Sueto. Trāq. in Calig. The pride of Caligula. Emperours haue exerciſed, chiefly Caligula & Nero: But theſe héere wyll iuſtifie them and accompt them for good men in reſpect of them, if that time ſhoulde continue a little longer. It is written of Caligula (who was ſo bolde that he would be worſhipped as God, & hath builded a temple in his honour during his lyfe) that hée ſpared neither Ioſeph. Anti. li. 18. ca. 15. man nor any thing whatſoeuer it bée, to the which hée hath Tribute of vittailes and of proces. not laide ſome tribute. Hée receiued certeine tribute of all manner of vittaile that are ſolde in the Citie. There was neither plaint, proces, cauſe nor iudgement, of which he toke not the fortie part of the ſumme for which the controuerſy was, inſomuch that if the plaint had bene fortie thouſande crownes, he would take a thouſād for his part. He receiueth Tribute of get p nce and of harlots. the eight part of the gaine that the poore get pence, iangellers, log carriers, and other like did dayly gette. Alſo the common harlots and whoores muſt not onely pay vnto him when & as often as they did commit whoredome, but did alſo compell thoſe y before time vſed that occupation, & which had bene whooremongers and bawdes: and not content with Tribute of marriages. that, did receiue tribute of thoſe that are married. The plaiers alſo of cardes and dice were not exempted. But which Tribute of plaiing at cardes & dice. is more, he cauſed to be builded & ſet vp houſes for whoores for to make his reuenewes the greater.

Thomas.

Beholde moſt vile, excecrable and moſt vnworthy things, I ſay not of an Emperour, but of the moſt wickedſt man in the whole worlde. That is much worſe then to recouer tribute of vrine and piſſe.

Hillarius.

If you thincke that to be vnworthy for a heathen Emperour, what maye you iudge of the Pope and his officers, if they doe the lyke, yea, or rather worſe? You haue already hearde howe that there is neither poore man nor rich, of whom they haue not gotten money euery way and dayly. And if you will knowe what tribute they receyue of the victualles they ſell, you muſt aſke the Itali ns, The papiſticall tribute of the vi •• a les. who can tell by experience. I doe beléeue that Caligula neuer vſed ſuche crueltie as Pope Clement vſed, altogether contrary to his name, who in the time of dearth The crueltie of Pope Clement and famine, ſéeing that the poore people had not any other thing to eat then hearbes, of which they made ſallets for to nouriſh and féede them, the better to ſhew foorth his clemencie, pittie & compaſſion that he had of the poore people of Italy béeing much oppreſſed with hunger, cauſed to make their ſalt deerer, and ſet a talent vpon it, to the end that they could not eate a ſallet but that they muſt pay tribute. But Diſpenſations for to eat flesh and milke doe we not dayly ſée the money that they get vnto them, for to diſpence with thoſe that would eat fleſh & al ſuch meates as are made of milke, againſt their decrées? Theſe are meruaylous ſellers of vittailes and Bouchers, that receiue money of fleſh, egs, milke, butter and cheeſe, and doe neuer dyſtribute any thing. And of their plaintés and proces, doth ther come vnto them ſmal gaine? And at Rome, Boulong e and other Cities ſubiect vnto the Pope, hath he not officers Phil. Beroal. in Sueto Caig. Tribute of vvhores Prafecti Bulle tarum. and other Cities ſubiect vnto the Pope, hath he not officers and magiſtrates that receiue monthly tribute of whoores and of thoſe women that are forſaken? which are commonly called the Popes pardoners.

Theophilus.

The Lord by Moſes hath forbidden that one ſhall not offer the hire of an whoore nor the price of a Dog. But thoſe are not diſdainfull. At the leaſt wiſe they Deut. 23. c. 18 Alexander Seuerus emperour lampi id in Alexand. did as the Emperour Alexander, who did forbid that ſuch tributes ſhould not be put into the treaſure of the temple, nor of the common wealth.

Hillarius.

I doe alſo thincke that thoſe doe not put in much, and that the Biſhops do not enrich very much the treaſures of the Church, with the tributes y they haue receiued of their whooremaiſter Prieſts for ſuff ring them to haue their concubines, whome they loue a great deale better, then if they were honeſter men. For they ſhould not haue ſo much gaine. But I thincke that the Pope who is the great prince and capitaine of the bawdes ought alſo to compell the Biſhops who are the The Bishoppes Bavvdes to the prieſtes. bawdes, vnto their Prieſts, to pay vnto him tribute, of the tribute that they haue gotten. But the thing might yet be more tollerable if they had but onely rendered the tribute of y whoores, to that they had exempted thoſe that are marryed, of which they doo receiue no leſſe money, as well of the proces which their decrées and canons haue ingendered, as of the diſpenſations, as well for the eſpouſes as of the degrées of conſanguinitie and other like thinges. It is alſo written of Nero, that hée neuer gaue any office to any perſon, but that hée added and ſayde. Thou knoweſt that I muſt haue. Letting vs to vnderſtand, that they muſte The ſelling of Offices. Nero. Sueto. Tran. in Nero. Scis quid mibi opus ſit: & hoc aga •• s ne quis qui qu n habeat Alexander Emperour. paye. For he hath néede of money: And after that ſort hée was the ſeller of offices and of Magiſtrates, which is a very vnworthy thing for a good Prince. But the auarice and rapacite of Nero, nor the ſelling of offices were nothinge in compariſon of that which is in the Popiſhe Church, in all offices and benefices.

Theophilus.

Alexander Seuerus a Romaine Emperour howe greate a Panim ſoeuer hée were, ſhall haue good occaſion at the daye of iudgement to riſe againſt that generation. For hee woulde neuer ſuffer that any ſhoulde ſell either honors or offices, ſpeaking theſe wordes worthy to be remembred. It is neceſſary that he y byeth do ſell. Wherefore I will not ſuffer Merchaunts of eſtates & offices.

Hillarius.

Beholde the woordes of a worthy Prince: Neceſſe eſt vt qui emit venda . Ego non patior mareatores poteſtatum. But woulde to GOD that the Pope and his Popelinges did no worſe then thoſe Tyrantes, and that they woulde ſuffer vs at the leaſt to bee at peace and reſt after that wée bée deade, and that wée might dye without paying any thinge, ſith that our lyſe hath coſt vs ſo much. But then that tyranny doth begin a freſhe. Are wée dead? we muſt firſt pay for the buriall before we can be buried. The panims had at y leaſt common churchyards for to bury in, for y poore mean people which did coſt them nothing. The buryall ſolde. But among the Chriſtians, in many places it is not onely lawfull that the poore dead carkas ſhould bée couered wyth earth, except he doe firſt buy the place and length and bredth of the grounde in which he would be buryed. And according to the ſumme thou gyueſt, the place ſhalbe accordingly Grego. in Reg. Iann. 〈◊〉 . 1. a . either little or great. If thou wilt pay a great deale it ſhalbe lawfull for thée to rotte by the high Aulter. If thou doe 〈◊〉 . 2. Qu ſta. Ib. d. ••• ro in Gene •• 4. poſt. quā. & 〈◊〉 . Tu •• a. In eccle ſi ••• o, & ca. precipiendum. giue but a little, thou ſhalt lye in the rayne wyth the common people. And although men doe offer vnto them wyllingly money for the buryall, yet they ſhall runne into infainy and ſhame for taking it, and alſo their canons and d cretalls as it appearethe by the auncient Doctors, doc forbio it expreſly. But they d e a great deale worſe. For they ſay that it is their duetie and ryght, and compell them to pay it.

Theophilus.

Ephron that heathen and barberous man, offered willingly vnto Abraham, beeing a ſtraunger and not Ephron & braham. Gene. 23. b. 10. knowen, his field freely, for to bury his wiſ Sar in, and it was much adoe euer he would be perſwaded to rece ue the money that Abraham offered him. But the Chriſtian prieſts doe ſell the buryall in other mens grounde and which belōgeth not to them: yea, & moreouer they h e out for money, as their owne, that which is common to all. I would gladly that they were at the leaſt ſo honeſt men, as the Scribes Math 27. a. 〈◊〉 Act. 1. c. 18 and Phariſes; Biſhops and Prieſtes of Hieruſalem, who bought wyth the money, that Iudas gaue, them againe, a fielde and poſſeſſion for to bury the poore ſtraungers, in lood wheroff our Prieſtes do ſell the ground to their next neighbours.

Hillarius.

I aſſure you without lying in any one worde, that there was in the citie of O be a poore Taylor, named A true hiſtory of our tyme. Gaſpard. I thincke you knowe him. Who was ſo poore that he had much adoe to liue and who had ſo many peeces and patches in his cloake as there bée dayes in the yeare. It was ſo péeced and patched with ſo many péeces one vpon an other that it was rather lyke vnto a brigantine, then a coate. His wife brought him foorth a childe that was Our lady of Lauſanna & hir miracles. borne dead: hée carryed it vnto our Lady of Lauſanna, who dyd many goodly m racles: who rayſed to lyfe thoſe lyttle children that were borne dead, and after they muſt incontinently bury them. For after that ſhe hath rayſed th m to lyfe, they coſte their parentes no more to nouryſhe. That was a reſurrection altogether differinge from Falſe miracles that of Ieſus Chriſt, and of thoſe whome he hath raiſed, who did ſpeake, walke, eate and drincke after their reſurrection, Iohn. 11. e. 43. & 12 a. 2 Mar. 5. d. 42 Luc. 7. c 15 Act. 9. g 40 Act. 20. b. 9 as it appeared in Lazarus the brother of Martha, and of Mary: Alſo in the daughter of Iarus, alſo in the ſonne of the widdowe of Naim, alſo of Doreas raiſed by S. Peter. And Eutieus by Sainct Paul. When the childe had bene a little time before the Idoll, he ſtoode vp as the others did, and the miracle was done when it pleaſed the olde woman that kept it. For there were alſo meanes to haſte the The olde vvomen that doe keepe the children that bee borne dead. miracles. For when any did giue a large drincking penny to the olde woman ſhe might the cléerer or better knowe when the childe chaunged colour or when hée breathed or wagged. And that is ſoone found out as well there, as at our Lady of grace of Geneua, of thoſe olde women who durſt ſay vnto ſome y haue brought of thoſe children, whē they will not giue them to drincke as they would, nor giue them that they demaund: The Diuell of miracle that you ſhall haue thrée dayes. Thoſe are yet liuing who hearde it, who can witneſſe the truth. Wherefore I doe conclude, that the olde woman doth the miracles and not our Lady.

Thomas.

And hath that poore man Gaſpard quenched their thirſt?

Hillarius.

I kmow not what he did. I thinke that when ſhe ſawe him ſo beggerly, that ſhe had ſome pittie. But héerein ſtoode the queſtion that when the childe that was raiſed muſt bée buryed, then had he ſomewhat to doe. For he muſt pay foure or fiue grotes for the buryall: and I beléeue that he had not foure farthinges for to paye his charge and expence. Neuertheleſſe he could neuer agrée with the Prieſtes, but was conſtrained to carry his childe to Orbe, or otherwiſe he muſt bury him in the rawe earth. For hée coulde neuer haue one foote of ſodden earth.

Thomas.

What doe you call ſodden earth and rawe earth?

Hillarius.

Are you of that country & know not the Ravv earth. language? Doe you not know y our prieſts do call cōmonly raw earth that which is out of the churchyard, & which hath not ben bleſſed & conſecrated, y is to wéet charmed by them, as the ſame of their Church. If it be rawe I conclude by contraries that the other is ſodden.

Thomas.

And when he was at Orbe, did he finde the Prieſtes more pitifull then at Lauſannia?

Hillarius.

God knoweth howe that poore man was ſifted and tried. They did thinke to eate him aliue with his childe, & compelled him to carrie him to Lauſannia, or at the leaſt would not ſuffer him to bury him in the Churchyarde: neuertheleſſe hee buried him. But I knowe not whether it were in the rawe ground or ſodden.

Thomas.

Beholde a greate rigour and crueltie ſhewed vnto a little infant.

Hillarius.

I doe thinke that Apuli. li. 6. Aſini aur. if that tyme had continued any long ſpace we ſhould haue béene conſtrayned not to dye, for want of burying. It is a marueylous caſe that that poore little Infant had ſo much Et ſi ſorte p ae manu non fuerit n mo expirate pauperem patiotur. a doe to finde one little corner or angle in the earth, for to be buried in, and that the earth was not greate ynough for him. We may very well ſay that of our Prieſts which Phocion. ſaide of the Athemans a little before his death. Phocion Plut. in Phocion. When they had condemned him to dye (bicauſe he was too honeſt a man for them, nor they were not worthy to haue him among them) he muſt drincke of the hemlocke. For The poyſon of the Athenians. the Athenians had that cuſtome to make thoſe that were founde faultie to drinke that poyſon, and to put them to death after that ſort. After that all the other that were in the priſon with him, had dronken, and that there was none but he alone left, bicauſe that all the other had conſumed the poyſon that did drinke firſt, the hangman ſaide that hée will not giue it him vnleſſe one woulde giue him twelue Death bought. drachines of ſiluer. For bicauſe that an ownce of the poyſon was ſold for ſo much. Phocion then pleading with the hangman that his death might not be prolonged, and that the ſame ſhould not let or hinder him to die, called vnto him a certeine friende of his, and ſaid vnto him: Sith that it is not lawfull to dye at Athens frely but that it will coſt money, and that I muſt bye death, I pray thée deliuer money to this hangman, and giue him the price hée demaundeth, leaſt that for want of money I ſhould tarry any longer before I dye. We may ſay as much of the Chriſtians, and that y Chriſtianitie is ſo much contributary, that one cannot onely haue the death and the buriall freely, but that we muſt pay a rewarde. There was alſo among the Panims The cuſtome of the dead & the ſ •• ry money of Charon. a certeine cuſtome that the dead muſt pay. And therfore when any man dyed they did put into his mouthe an halfe penny for to paye for his paſſage and cuſtome vnto Charon the Ferryman of Hell for to ſerry the ſoules ouer the riuers that were there to paſſe ouer.

Thomas.

That Naulum O •• alus was very good cheape: But I do thinke that there paſſed many together at once. For the ſoules are not very hea y.

Hillarius.

According to the bodies from which they came out.

Thomas.

And if they had not wherewith to pay, ſhould they be conſtrayned to retourne to lyue againe, and to continue and abide heere for want of money?

Hillarius.

They had that opinion that they ſhould continue in great torment, if they coulde not paſſe.

For they could not be purged of their ſinnes, nor enter into the fields Eliſeas with the bleſſed, but that they muſt firſte paſſe the riuer: As men haue made vs to beleeue of the ſoules who haue not ended their penaunce. They doe alſo beleeue that if their bodyes be not honeſtly buryed according to their eſtate and degrée, they cannot paſſe in an hundreth yeares, but muſt be wandring héere and there, vntill ſuch time as their bodyes be buryed, or vntill the terme of an hundreth yeares, which was aſſigned vnto them for their payne and puniſhment, be expired: the which things the Poet hath compriſed altogether in one ſelfe place by his verſes of which I wil recite vnto you one parte of thoſe that agree beſt to our matter.

He ſpeaketh in that place of the things that A neas hath ſéene, béeing deſcended into Hell with Sibilla, the which afterwardes hée expoundeth and ſheweth playnely wh t they ſignifie. He firſt deſcribeth that which they haue ſéene there practiſed, ſaying.

HEere now the way doth lead to Lymbo lake and filthy ſtoud, Ver. A ne. 6. Whoſe chānell choked is, with troublous groūds of miry mud. And belching boyles a ſand, vvhich to the bakes it throws frō deeps, A dredfull ferriman that ſtreme, vvith viſage lothſom keepes. In tartred vvretched weede, and Charon he by name doth hight His hoary buſh and bearde, both ouergrovvue & foule vndight., With ſkowling ſteming eyes, & from his ſhoulders down his loyns, His filthy mantell hangs, whom ſluttiſh knot vncomly ioyns. Himſelfe vvith pyked poale his boat doth guyde, & bears a charge, Tranſporting ſtill the ſoules, in ruſty duſty canckred barge. Well aged novv, but ſappy ſtrength he keepes of greener yeares, To this place al the rout doth dravv thēſelues with louring cheeres, By nombers great, both men and vvomen dead, nor long delayde, With Princes preaſed boyes and girles, that wedlocke neuer ſayde. And ſlouring youth, that in their parents time were laid in ground, And all that lyfe had borne, about that banke they cluſtered round, As thicke as leaues of trees among the vvoods in vvynter vvinde. When firſt to ground they fal, or lyke as foules of vvater kinde. Aſſembling flock themſelues, when yere of froſt hath firſt begunne, And ouer S •• s they ſeeke in vvarmer lands to take the Sunne. They ſtood, and crauing cride, that firſt tranſport they might before, And ſtretching held their hands deſiring much the further ſhore. The churliſh ferruman, novv theſe novv thoſe by courſe receiues, And ſome dovvn thruſting throvves, & from the ſande reſtraining Aeneas then for of this great tumult he merua lde ſore,) vveiues. O virgin tell ( 〈◊〉 he) vvhat meanes this buſie great vprore? What ſeeke they thus? vvhy to this vvater banke rome they ſo faſt? Wherefore be theſe reiect? and yonder thoſe their courſe hath paſt? And ſome vvith ores I ſee are ſ veeping yet this channeell blevve, Than ſhortly thus to him dame Sibly ſpake that Prophet trevve. O great Anchiſes ſonne, vndoubted childe of Gods in bliſſe, Now Lymbo lake thou eeſt, infernall poole this water is. Cocitus cald it is, and Stygies more the name doth beare, By vvhich the Gods themſelues, ſo ſore afraid bene for to ſvveare. This preaſe that here thou ſeeſt, ben people dead not layd in graue, A piteous rable poore, that no releaſe nor comfort haue. This boateman Charon is, & thoſe vvhom novv this vvater beares, Are bodyes put in ground, vvith vvorſhip due of vveping teares. Nor from theſe fearefull bankes nor •• ers hoaree they paſſage get, Till vnder earth in graues their bodyes bones at reſt are ſet. A hūdreth years they vvalke, & roūd about theſe ſhores they houe And then at laſt full glad, to further pooles they do remoue.

There are yet at this day ſome who do not much differ from that opinion.

Thomas.

I knowe not what they doe in The prayer of thoſe that are depriued from ••• riall. Rer c. ſperg. Ser o dominic. 24 poſt Trinita. 〈◊〉 all Ap li. li. 6. Aſin a r. rgo inter mortuos anaritia V i : ne C aron ilie ditis, & pater tantus Deus quiequam gratuito facit? & pauper mortens debat viaticum quarere. The Milanois. other places, but in our citie when any is dead, & that they doe bring him to bée buried, he muſt bring with him his trentall. For aſſoone as the deade corpes is come into the Church, they doe lay ten lyardes vppon his breaſt, whiche is thirtie deneeres in valewe, the which the Curate or vycar goeth incontinently to take vp.

Hillarius.

That is n y honour of the thirty pence as I thinke which Iudas ſold Ieſus Chriſt.

Thomas.

I knowe not whether they had a regard to that, but you haue made me to thinke that the ſame was to pay the feriage. Wherefore I would at the leaſt wiſe that if the Prieſtes will not ſuffer vs to paſſe fréely, that our cuſtome might be as cheape as was that of the Panims.

Hillarius.

The Milanois haue yet at this day that cuſtome, that they doe put a péece of Siluer in the hand of him that is dead, but he carrieth it with him, and doeth not giue it vnto the Prieſtes. Ʋppon which I haue heard recited an excellent hiſtorie which is written in the cronicles of Milanois, verie proper, for to ſhewe vnto our Prieſtes that they ought to ſuffer the dead to reſt, without demaunding any thing more of them. For they are no more in their owne ground nor countrie: wherefore they ought no more to be tributaries. And may very well thinke that they ought not to haue any greate ſtore of money with them in theſe baſe and lowe territories, for as much as alreadie long time agone they haue taken all that that they could: & which is more, they did well know that they haue taken away nothing with them. For euen as they Ioh 1. d. 21 •• c. 〈◊〉 . 5 c 14 〈◊〉 o. b. 7 Valer. Max. li. 2 a. 1. de iuſt aut. came all naked into the worlde, ſo ſhall they returne againe all naked: Except peraduenture our Prieſtes bee of the opinion of the auncient Galles and Frenchmen who do thinke that in the other worlde men doe handle money as they doe in this: & therefore they do lende the one to the other money vnto vſurie, to pay it below after their death. But I greatly feare that our Prieſtes do not ſo much beléeue of the unmortalitie of the ſoules, as thoſe there, and that they had rather borrow vppon that compte, then to lende. But let vs come vnto our hiſtory. In the time that Gothes Aduenturers To ſpoyle the dead, and to pil the naked A true hiſtorie the Barbarians and Gothes did inhabite Italy, and Lumbardy, and did vſe great extorcions vnto the poore people, (as aduenturers and Souldiers haue accuſtomed to doe: who after that they haue gotten all the ſpoyle, yet they will pill the naked and ſpoyle the dead. And when they haue taken all, inſomuch that there is nothing left, yet they would that men ſhould giue them more, and doe torment the poore people, for to compell them to tell wher they haue hid vp their money, although they haue none.) Among the reſt there was an honeſt widdowe and of a riche houſe, Blondu who knewe not what to doe, hir houſe and all hir goodes were already ſacked and pilled, that there was no more to take, and yet neuertheleſſe the Souldiers did gréeue and threaten hir that ſhée had more money. Whileſt that ſhée was in that perplexitie, one of hir children came vnto hir and ſayd: You doe remember mother that when my father dyed, one did put a ducat in his hande? let vs go fetche it and giue it to the Souldiers, to the ende that they would let vs haue a lyttle peace and reſt. The poore woman beléeued the counſaile of hir ſonne, and for to haue peace with thoſe théeues was conſtrained to open the Tombe wherein hir huſband was layde with other dead bodyes and tooke away that ducat from him for to giue it vnto them. The ſame béeing come vnto the Captaynes eare: for the Soldiers were preſent, who ſaw euery thing and declared it vnto him. And therefore incontinently as he vnderſtoode theroff, he ſayd vnto his people: Let vs depart hence, and let vs not torment them any more: For there is no more money, ſith that they haue bene conſtrayned to ſéeke it with y dead.

Thomas.

Truely that might bée very well called to take tribute of the deade.

Hillarius.

I would gladly that our prieſtes and Monkes had ſuch a iudgement, and that they had aſmuch pittie on the poore people, & not to compel them any longer to pay trybute for the dead, when they ſée that they haue woorke vnough to fynde money to buye bread for to giue meate vnto thoſe that be alyue. Mée thinketh that they ought to content themſelues for that they haue pilled the world ſo long time, when they ſée y it is eaten euen to the bones. For how many poore people are there, that ſhal be conſtrayned to go and dig the dead out of their graues, if they did know any that had money, for to delyuer themſelues from the hands of ſuch aduenturers? But which is worſe, in ſtéede to content themſelues in ſo pillyng the poore people vntill this preſent time, if there bée any that ſpeaketh one onely word againſte their pillyngs and extorcions, and which refuſeth to pay tribute for the quicke and the deade, they will condempne them immediately to the fire, as Heritickes. We doe call the Scythians barbarous people, and eſtéeme them very cruell, eſpecially the Eſſedonians and Maſſagetes, who doe eate theire fathers and mothers and their parents and friendes, in ſtéede to burye them. The Eſſedonians haue a cuſtome (as the Hiſtoriographers doe witneſſe) to ſinge after their parents, and after that their kinſfolke and neighbours are aſſembled together, they doe eate the fleſh of the dead bodyes, mingled with the fleſhe of beaſtes. The lyke haue they written of the Maſſagetes who were alſo Scythians. I haue thoughte that manner of doing to be meruaylous ſtraunge, and would not beléeue it that ther wer people vpon the earth ſo inhumaine, who had not great horrour and feare to eate the fleſh of men. But when I conſider & way the doings of our Prieſtes, I finde the Scythians to be very humaine in compariſon of them. For they are not contēt to eate the dead onely, but they eate both the quicke & the dead: & not béeing content with y do alſo eate with them their wyues, children, parents & friends with all their cheuances & ſubſtance: & yet they cannot be ſuffiſed & ſatiſfied. They make The Prieſtes are the graues of men and of Ieſus Chriſt. Stella clericorum O ſaccrdos cor pu tut m efficitur quotidic ſepulchrū Chriſti. of their bodyes y ſepulchers of the poore people whom they do englut and deuoure, for to bury them more preciouſly in their bowels. But you muſt not be abaſhed if they make of their bodies the ſepulchers of the poore people, as the Scythians did of their parents & friends, ſith that they ſay that they are made dayly the ſepulcher of Ieſus Chriſt, bicauſe they doe eate him dayly, and bury him in their bodyes and entrayles. The poore people haue then no iuſt occaſion to complayne of their crueltie. For they doe vnto them no worſe then vnto their God, if their doctrine be true, but doe bury them as preciouſly & honeſtly. And hée that will not beléeue me, let him read their booke which is intituled Stella Clericorum: and he ſhall ſée whether I lye or no: Stella clericorum Mundi precium proiieitur in ſterquilinium id eſt in o immundi ſacerdotis. but he ſhall there finde rather worſe. For it is there written, ſith that the Prieſte is the ſepulcher of Ieſus Chriſte, that if he doe preſume to take the body of Ieſus with his polluted mouth, he doth worſe then if he threwe it in the durte or mire: But which is more, he caſteth it into a priuie. Iudge therefore Euſebius, whether that good God whom they haue forged, be honeſtly lodged, and whether he haue not a tombe and ſepulcher very precious and according to his dignitie.

Euſebius.

If there are ſome wicked Prieſts who did vnreuerently handle Ieſus Chriſt, and who did diſhonour their office, muſt ye therfore deſpiſe the eſtate, which is ſo worthy and excellent, and blaſpheame Ieſus Chriſt in ſuch ſorte?

Hillarius.

When did you euer heare vs blaſpheme Ieſus Chriſt, & ſpeake vnreuerently of god? do you thinke ther is no differēce betwene Ieſus chriſt the true ſauiour of y world. As for me I finde as much difference, as is betwen y true God of Iſrael & the gods of the The true God and that of the Prieſtes. Babilonians and other Idolaters. Wherfore if you will accuſe me of blaſphemy, when I will not receiue thoſe newe gods, and that I ſpeake in ſuch ſort, you ſhall be alſo compelled to accuſe the Prophets of the ſame crime, when they doe ſo often mocke at the ſtrange gods. But wherefore are you not rather offended with them, then with mée, who haue not inuēted any thing but do ſpeake only after them? To what purpoſe doe they call the Prieſtes the Sepulcher The Sepulchre of Ieſus Chriſt Act. 1. a. 2 Rom 6. b. 9 of Ieſus Chriſt? Is not Ieſus Chriſt riſen agayne and aſcended into heauen? doth not the Apoſtle ſay. Chriſt once raiſed from death dyeth no more. For as much then as Ieſus Chriſt liueth eternally at y right hand of god his father what needeth he of a ſep lohre, eſpecially of ſuch as theſe are? When he dyed for our ſinnes he had his ſepulchre in Hieruſalem, in which Ioſeph of Aramathia and Nicodemus Mat. 2 . g. 7 Mar. 15. d. 42 Luc. 23. g 50 Iohn. 19 g. 35 dyd bury him in. They dyd not as the Scithians, eate him fleſhe and bones and bury him in their bellyes and entrayles. But in a goodly new ſepulchre, hewen in ſtone. The prieſtes then camib ſaye that they are that ſepulchre in which Ieſus Chriſt was put, and out of which he roſe againe. Wherefore if they be the ſepulchres of Ieſus Chriſt, it muſt be that he is dead ſithence, and that he was buryed in theyr bellyes. For I cannot vnderſtande how he could be buryed, if they haue not eaten him, as the Scithians dyd eate theyr parents and friends. And if you doe thinke that I tell you a thing that is ſtrange, conſider and marke well the woords that the Apoſtle hath wrytten to the Hebrewes. The ſacrifice of Ieſu Chriſt Heb. 7. d. 27. & 9. c. 12 He witneſſeth that Ieſus Chriſt was once offered, and he ſhalbe no more Afterward telleth the cauſe. For if he muſt be often offered he muſt dye often, ſith that there is no ſacrifice without effuſion of bloud. Yet the prieſtes ſay that they doe offer and ſacrifice really euery day Ieſus Chriſt; it followeth neceſſarily, y either they do put him to death, & that he dyeth agayne, or els y the holy Apoſtle is an euil Logicioner, & that he concludeth euilly, & knoweth not the rules and lawes of his Silogiſmes and conſequences. If it be ſo the Prieſtes may well be called the Sepulchers of Ieſus Chriſt, but not of the true Ieſus Chriſt whom Saint Stephen Marc. 16. d. 19 Luc. 24. g. 51 Act. 1. b. 9 did ſée at the righte hande of God, who as the Apoſtle witneſſeth, dyeth no more: vnto whome I giue more credite, then vnto all the Prieſts and Monkes which euer were or ſhall be. And therefore eyther it muſt bée that they haue forged a newe Ieſus Chriſt, that dyeth and riſeth agayne euery day and as often as they liſt, and that they are all lyers: or els that the Apoſtle hath written againſt the truth, the which is impoſſible. Wherefore it followeth, that the firſt part of my propoſition is true.

Euſebius.

Doe you not beléeue that the Prieſtes haue power to conſecrate the body and bloude of Ieſus, and that they eate it fleſh and bones, as groſe and as bigge as he was To eate Ieſus Chriſt. on the croſſe?

Hillarius.

I doe aſke you an other queſtion, whē they haue eaten the fleſh & the bones, what do thy with the ſkinne? And how they could dine vpon Chriſtmas day, after that they haue eatē him thrée times. For me thincketh they ſhould haue their bellies too ful & ſtrouted. Alſo wherefore De conſecra diſtic. 2. in gloſ. cap. nee Moyſes. Lib. de ſacram. Ioan chanoiſ. Vtrum Chriſtus. comederit ſeipſ o in die coenae. Reſpondet quod ſic. Vt communiter tenent Docto. res. Vnde verſus. Re ſedet in oene turba inetus duodena. Se tenet in manibus, ſe cibat ipſe cibus. doe you not demaund of me this queſtion which is alſo very cōmon among your deuines? To weet whether Ieſus Chriſt did eate himſelfe?

Thomas.

What reſolution doe they giue?

Hillarius.

That he did, you may thereby know what reaſon there is in their doctrine. Will you haue a more greater abſurdite? We do eate his fleſh ſpiritually for to haue life: But he who is the life, what néede hath he to eat himſelfe? And if Ieſus Chriſt did eat himſelfe, it muſt be that he hath two bodies: the one which eateth, and the other which was eaten. O Lord God, what dreams are theſe? But if your Prieſts do eat the fleſh and the bones, they are worſe then the Scithians. For they were content with y fleſh of man, without eating the bones. Neuertheleſſe to the ende that you do not thincke that I will gainſay the word of Ieſus Chriſt, and that I am ſome Caparnaite, who is offended with the preachinge that he made, of eating his fleſh and Caparnaites Iohn. 6. f. 55 To eate Ieſus Chriſt three vvaies. drincking his bloud, or as the hearers who did forſake it. I aunſwere that there is thrée wayes to eate the fleſhe and drincke the bloude of Ieſus Chriſt. The true manner the which he would teach vs by his worde, and that hée would repreſent and frequent in the holy ſupper is ſpirituall The ſpirituall nanducation Iohn. 6. g. 63 and not carnall, as he himſelfe witneſſeth, ſayinge. It is the ſpirite that quickeneth, the fleſhe profiteth nothing. The woordes that I haue ſayde are ſpirite and lyfe.

Theophilus.

That is not ment that the fleſhe of Ieſus Chriſt doth not profite any thing the faithful, ſith y he himſelfe calleth it the bread which came downe from heauen, without which we cannot haue life, nouriſhment, nor ſaluation. But the carnall ſence and vnderſtandinge of hys woordes, and ſuche intelligence as the Cape naites, and hearers that were offended had, is the fleſhe eaten in ſuch ſorte as they vnderſtande it. For when wée ſhall haue the very fleſhe of Ieſus Chriſt in our mouth, and that wée doe craſhe it wyth our téeth, and diſgeſt it in our ſtomack, it profiteth vs no more then to Iudas to haue kiſſed him, and to the hangmen to haue touched him, yea, to bée ſprinckled in hys bloude, and to haue had his garmentes. For Ieſus Chriſt doth profite nothinge béeing knowen after the fleſh, except he be knowen through fayth, by the whiche hée filleth and ſatiſfieth vs alſo wyth his fleſhe and bloude. Therefore it is not néedefull that he diſcende from heauen, nor y he remoue frō place to place, for to feede vs in that manner wyth his fleſhe and bloude, The preſence of Ieſus chriſt and for to bée preſent wyth vs and in the middeſt of vs. For he dwelleth in our heartes by fayth, and lyueth in vs, and quickeneth vs by his holy ſpirit. Wherfore he calleth Ephe. 3. c. 17 Rom. 8. b. 1 The Temple of God. 1. Cor. 6. d. 19 2. Cor. 6. d. 16. not the faythfull, hys ſepulchre, but the temple of the liuing God. For hée is not deade in the heartes of the faythfull, but lyueth there and the faythfull by hym. Euen as then the ſunne is preſent wyth vs, althoughe it deſcende not from heauen into the earth, and maketh vs to féele hys vertue and power, it illuminateth vs, and through his heate and brightneſſe nouriſheth and quickeneth both man and beaſtes, better then if it were héere in earth with vs: euen ſo Ieſus Chriſt, that greate ſonne of righteouſneſſe through his diuine power and vertue of his holye ſpirite, doth gyue vnto our ſoules and bodyes hys fleſh and his bloude, and doth nouriſhe and fill vs and maketh vs to feele the vertue and efficacie of his death and paſſion, and of his body and bloude, that hée hath gyuen for vs, better then if we did eate his fleſh with our téeth and there dyd deuoure and ſwallow it in wyth his bloud in our ſtomacke: inſomuch that there is not a body which is ſo well nouriſhed and fedde wyth bread and wine, that hée eatcth and drincketh, as the faythfull who with a true and liuely faith commeth vnto him., and receyueth his woorde and communicateth the Sacramentes that he hath ordayned, is filled and ſatiſfied wyth his fleſh and his bloude. For hée Iohn. 6. d. 31. hath ſayde: he that commeth to mée ſhall not hunger, and he that beléeueth on mée ſhall neuer thurſt. If he that commeth and beléeueth in him ſhall no more hunger nor thurſt, it followeth then that in beléeuing and communicating his Sacramentes, hée hath eaten and dronken and is ſatiſfied.

Hillarius.

That ſufficeth which you haue nowe ſpoken off (friend Theophilus) for to proue my meaning. For we haue not at this preſent neyther better time nor fitter occaſion for to purſue more fully that matter. But I wil not graunt vnto thée Euſebius, that the Prieſtes doe eate the fleſhe and drincke the bloude of Ieſus Chriſte after that ſorte. For ſith that they ſéeke his carnall preſence, they depriue themſelues of his ſpiritual preſence, according to the witneſſe of the Apoſtle which ſayth: Wée haue an Aulter Heb. 13. c. 10 whereoff they maye not eate whiche ſerue in the Tabernacle. If thoſe who doe ſerue in the Tabernacle of Moſes, and put yet all their affiaunce in the leuitical Ceremonies and ſacrifices, are ſhutte out and depriued from the true ſacrifice of Ieſus Chriſte, what communion can thoſe haue wyth hym, who haue altogether ouerthrowen his Sacramentes and Ordinaunces, and haue founde out and inuented newe ſacrifices, more intollerable then euer the Iewes vſed? There is an other manner to eate the fleſhe and drincke the bloude of Ieſus Chriſt, the which The carnall manducatiō Capernaites I cannot graunt vnto them, y is, the carnall eating, as the Caparnaites dyd vnderſtande it, euen as one eateth the fleſhe of the butchery. Ieſus Chriſte whiche is at the ryght hande of God cannot bée eaten after that ſorte.

For hée is the breade of Angels and of the true chyldren of God, and of his ſhéepe and not of Dogges, Wolues, Hogges, Lyons and wilde beaſtes. But I wyll graunte vnto them the thirde manner to eate Ieſus Chriſt, and The papiſtical manducation. doe confeſſe wyth thée that they doe eate it truelye, reallye, and eſſentiallye, not onely in fleſh and bones, but which is more (leaſt you ſhoulde accompte mée for an hereticke) beſides the fleſh and bones, they doe eate the ſkinne, and breake the bones for to ſucke out the marrowe that is therein, bycauſe they haue founde ſuche good taſte in the meate.

Thomas.

If they doe ſo, they doe worſe then the Iewes. For they brake not a bone of Ieſus Chriſt.

Theophilus.

That was bicauſe that it was neceſſarye that in him ſhould be fulfilled which was figured & repreſented The hones of Ieſus Chriſt are vvhole Iohn. 19. f. 33 The paſcall Lambe. Bxo. 12. 2. 5 by the paſcall Lambe, of which they muſt leaue his bones whole. For we cannot haue Ieſus Chriſt, but that we muſt haue him whole, & his vertue & power cannot be broken by death it ſelfe.

Thomas.

I haue not yet very wel vnderſtood you.

Hillarius.

I will declare it vnto thée by a cléere demonſtration, & by euident arguments. Diddeſt thou not firſt confeſſe vnto me, that all the true faithfull are the true members of Ieſus Chriſt?

Thomas.

I confeſſe it.

Hillarius.

If they be members of Ieſus Chriſt, they are then his body, of which he is y head, as the Apoſtle doth witneſſe in many places.

Thomas.

I doe agrée vnto you Induction Members of Ieſus Chriſt. 1. Cor. 12. b. 12 Rom. 12. b. 5 in that.

Hillarius.

Foraſmuch then as the faithfull are the body of Ieſus Chriſt, you will alſo graunt mée, that thoſe which eate the faithfull and poore widowes & orphants, doe eate Ieſus Chriſt. And if you will denie it, I will proue it To perſecute Ieſus Chriſt. Act 9. 〈◊〉 . 4 by that that Ieſus Chriſt ſayd vnto Saul, ſaying: Saul, Saul, why perſecuteſt thou me? In the ſame manner then as Ieſus Chriſt doth complaine himſelfe to be perſecuted whē his members are: So may I ſay, without digreſſinge from the Scripture, that thoſe eate Ieſus Chriſt that do eat his members.

Thomas.

But you haue not yet proued, that the Prieſts doe eate the members of Ieſus Chriſt.

Hillarius.

It hath ben alredy proued by the things that were ſpoken before. For haue I not already tolde thée, how they doo eate both the quicke & dead? But leaſt thou ſhouldeſt thincke that I ſpeake without the Scripture, beholde his witneſſe. What doe you vnderſtande by that rebuke and checke that God did vnto the tyrants and enemies of his people, when he complained that they denoured Iacob, To eate Iacob. and his people, as a morſell of bread. Pſa. 79. b. 7 Pſa. 53. a. 5 Pſa. 14. a. 4

Thomas.

The places doe declare inough of themſelues. For he complaineth that his enemies are come into his enheritage, and haue deſtroyed his people, which is ſignified by Iacob, of whom did procéede & come the twelue tribes of Iſrael. That is a manner of ſpeaking common in all tongues. Euen ſo doe we ſaye that a man is burned when his houſe is burned, alſo wée do call the great théeues, couetous perſons, Metonimia. Virg. Aene. 2 Vealegon ardet. Deuourers. tyrantes, rauiſhers and vſurers the conſumers and deuourers of the poore people, widowes and Fatherleſſe children, not that they eaſe and deuoure mans fleſh, but bicauſe they deſtroy and deuoure their ſubſtaunce, and many times cauſe them to dye for very pouertie and lacke.

Hillarius.

You haue alredy concluded y which I would haue concluded. We cannot denie, but that the Prieſts and Moonkes doe deuoure all the ſubſtance of the poore Chriſtian Gods heritage. 1. Pet. 5. a. 3 people, which is the true heritage of God, and the true Iacob whome they haue conſumed, waſted, and deuoured more cruelly then the Babilonians did vnto the Iſraelites. For to make you better to vnderſtande the effect & ſumine of our diſputation, I will comprehend it in a little ſillogyſme Sillogiſmus in darii. and playne concluſion. Whoſoeuer eateth the poore, eateth the body of Chriſt. The Prieſtes doe eate the poore: wherefore it followeth infallibly that they eate the body of Ieſus Chriſt. The ſillogiſme is good, for it is in his inode and dialecticall and logicall figure. It néedeth no more for to proue the premiſſes and the Antecedent. For you haue already graunted it vnto me by your aunſweres. You doe then ſée now friend Euſebius, that I am not an heretick, noither after God nor after the Pope. For I doe confeſſe y true and ſpirituall manducation of the body of Ieſus Chriſt, & the very papiſticall manducation, which is more truer then it is in the bookes of your Doctors. I doe then thinck that you ought to content your ſelues with vs, & that the Pope ought not to purſue vs to the fire, & to ſuch cruell death, for that Article. For I beléeue y there is none of all thoſe whō you doe condemne for hereticks, who are not ready to confeſſe as muche as I. And if you will compell them further, me thinckes you doe them wronge. For what can they confeſſe any more, without ſpeakinge againſte the truth? Nowe it reſteth that I doe proue howe they doe To eate the ſkinne and the bones. eat the ſkinne and breake the bones for to haue the marrowe. Wherefore I will take for my warrant and aduocate in this cauſe chiefly Michea amonge the Prophetes, who ſpeakinge both of them and of their like, accuſeth them after this manner, ſayinge. Ye hate the good and loue Mich. 3. 2. 2. the euill: ye plucke off mens ſkinnes and fleſhe from their bones: ye eate the fleſhe of my people, and flaye off their ſkinne: ye breake their bones, ye choppe them in péeces as it were into a Cauldron, and as fleſh into a Pot. And as concerning the Prophetes that deceiue my people, thus the Lorde ſaith againſte them: When they haue anye thinge to bite vpon, then they preache that all ſhall bée well: But if a man putte not ſome thinge into theyre A ſop in the throte. mouthes, they preache of warre againſt him. I doe neuer read thoſe wordes of Micheah, conſideringe the auarice and rapacite of our falſe teachers and ſhepheards, Shepheards feeding themſelues. who doe feede themſelues, not the Lordes flocke, but that mée thinckes I ſée before mine eyes that greate Bze. 34. 2. 2. Serberus the porter of hell. and hidious Cerberus the dogge and porter of Hell, with his thrée heades, whiche hée hath for to deuoure, eate, and ſwallowe vp all that commeth vnto hym, if one doe not caſt a ſop into his mouth, euen as Aeneas and Sibyle did, accordinge to Virgiles diſcription, who hathe ſette out his rage and vnſatiable madneſſe, ſpeakinge after this ſort.

There Cerberus, infernall hound, with throates vvide open three, Vir Aene. 6. Doth havvle vvith barking noiſe, at Lymbo mouth full huge to ſee. Whoſe neck vvhen Sibly ſavve vvith ſtartling ſnakes to ſwelling fixt, A ſop of bread vvith ſleepy ſeedes and Honny ſweete commixt. Againſt his throat ſhe threw, he gaping wide his threefolde iawes, All hungry caught that gub, & couching ſtraite with ſtretched paws. He bowed his boiſtrous backe, and on the ground himſelfe he ſpred, Encombring all the caue, and groueling lay with ſlombry head.

We haue a great number of ſuch dogs, who although Dūme dogs and cryers. they are mute for to preach the word of God, for to crye againſt the abuſes, vices and offences, for to chaſe and driue away the Wolues from the folde & to defend the ſhéepe, neuertheleſſe are not mute, but great cryers againſt the true ſeruaunts of God who ceaſe not to barke, bite & deuoure, except for to haue them quiet, one do caſt them ſome bone or ſop in their mouth. Now thincke if that infernall monſter & mad dog, who hath but thrée heads and one belly, be ſo hungry and inſatiable, what ought we to eſtéeme of ſo many Cerberus, and of ſo many gluttons who haue ſo many heads & bellies, which are as the great goulfes of the ſea. It is not then wtout cauſe that y prophets comparing ſuch ſhepherds to thoſe great maſties & dumme dogs, ſhameleſſe idle knaues Eſa. 56. c. 11 and inſatiable, & vnto Lyons & rauening Wolues who haue eaten nothing vntil Euening, who do flay the ſkinne, eat the fleſh, afterwards doe breake the hones and caſt them into the pot for to eate and deuoure them, and yet cannot bée ſatiſfied and filled. Wherefore I cannot beléeue but that Salomon by the ſpirite of GOD hath foreſéene and ſpake of that generation, and that hée minded to paynte Prouer. 30. b. 14. it out vnto vs, when he ſayde: There are a people whoſe téeth are ſwoordes, and wyth their chaffe bones they conſume & deuoure the ſimple of the earth, and the poore from amonge men. The Horſeléech hath two daughters, the The daughters of the horſelech. Horat in art. Poet. one is called fetche hether, and the other bringe hether.

Theophilus.

Hée ſayeth not wythout cauſe that ſhée Non miſſura cutē niſi plena cruoris hirudo. The inſatiable thinges. Pro. 30. b. 16 hath two daughters. For ſhée hath two throates, and draweth the bloude from one ſide to the other. But I am not abaſhed, but of that that when hée nombreth the thinges that are not ſatiſfied he hath alſo added thoſe which are the moſt inſatiable of all. He ſayth, that there be thrée things that are neuer ſatiſfied, and the fourth ſayth neuer hoe. That is to ſaye, hell, a womans wombe, and the earth hathe neuer water inoughe, as for fire it ſayth neuer hoe. One may very well adde to theſe for the fift.

Hillarius.

It is no néede. For among theſe foure, they are alredy conteined in two for fault of one. Hath not Salomon The fire inſatiable. ſpoken of the fire, who neuer ſaith hoe. For one cannot finde ſo much as it conſumeth. There was neuer fire, that molted and conſumed ſo much goods, as the fire of their Purgatory & of their kitchin which is of y ſame nature. Againe, is not y hell compriſed among thoſe inſatiable things? Hell or y graue inſatiable. May wée not well ſpeake that of them which Dauid hath written of his enemies? ſaying: their throat is an open ſepulchre. Pſa. 5. c. 10 And that which Eſay ſpeaketh off, ſaying: hell gapeth and openeth hir mouth meruailous wide. For of all Eſa. 5. 6. 14. that they can once lay hand on, nothing euer retourneth againe, no more then from the mouth of hell and graue. But which is worſe the graue conſumeth & deuoureth but the dead bodies: but theſe do deuour both the quick & the dead: And we may very wel ſay y theſe are the Harpyes of whom Harpyes. Vir. Aene. 9 Virginei volucrū v ltus, fodiſsima ventri Proluuies, vnca que manus, & pallida ſemper. Ora fame. Painted Sepalchres. Mat. 29 b. 14 Mar. 12. d. 39 Luc. 20. g. 47 The ornaments of the painted Sepulc res. Virgile maketh mention off. But bicauſe they are faire and goodly ſepulchres, as the Scribes & Phariſes who do neuer ceaſe to crye: Corban, Corban, giue, giue, offer, offer: and as the daughter of the Horſeléech. Bringe, bringe to the candles of the good Sainct. Bicauſe they are ſo beautifull & polliſhed without, y poore world cannot know thē, although they do ſée them deuoure & eate vp widowes houſes before their eies, vnder colour of long praiers. For they haue thoſe goodly habites of religion, goodly Ornaments, Ceremonies, goodly names & titles, and that goodly appearaunce of holineſſe, which do couer & beautifie thoſe ſepulchres & tombes, in ſuch ſort that men cannot perceiue the filthineſſe & infection that is there hidden and kepte cloſe within, but paſſe ouer it without any aduiſement, as men doe by the Sepulchres.

Theophilus.

They are more open and dyſcouered then néede required. For GOD hathe nowe rayſed vppe a people whome they woulde not haue, who haue in ſuche ſorte remoued all that filthe and infectyon that it ſtincketh throughoute the whole worlde. And we muſt not be abaſhed if they call them the Sepulchers Sepulchers of Ieſus Chriſt. of Ieſus Chriſt, and though they doe meruaylouſly ſtincke, ſith that Ieſus Chriſt is altogether deade in them, and to them, and that they haue nothing at all. For if Chriſt lyue not in vs, what other thing can wée bee, but dead carryons, ſtincking and infectious, who doe not onely rotte and conſume themſelues, but doe rotte and conſume with them all other things?

Euſebius.

All of you doe cry out agaynſt the Prieſtes. Haue you now all ſayd? It was not inough for Hillarie to ſpeake euill and backebite, but that you muſt ayde and helpe him Theophilus, and meddle alſo as well as hée.

Theophilus.

You neuer ſawe a man that delyteth leſſe The difference betvveene to ſpeake 〈◊〉 euill and to ſpeake truth. to ſpeake euill and backebite, and to heare euill ſpeakinge and tales: But truth conſtrayneth mee, and you oughte to vnderſtande, that to ſpeake truth for the health of ones neighbour, is not to ſpeake euill, backebite, and ſlaunder any man. Would to God I coulde ſpeake as much good of them, as of the Apoſtles. For I doe loue better to praiſe their vertue, charitie and mercy, then to diſpiſe their vices, crueltie, auarice, and rapacitie. But what will you that I ſpeake? If I doe ſée a poore man, who is wandring alone in a forreſt, or woode full of théeues, am not I bounde to giue him warning of the daunger he is lyke to fall in?

If I ſay nothing vnto him, am not I guyltie of his death ſith that I knew the daunger: And if I encourage him to enter, and tell him that there is no daunger, am not I then more culpable and worthy to be taken for a murtherer of my poore brother? But if I doe admoniſh him of the daungers and of the théeues. Doe I wrong vnto the theenes in callyng them by their name? Shoulde I doe better and according to Gods commaundemet to call them good people for to ſaue their honour, and that I ſhould put my brother into their handes to haue them to cutte his throate?

What goodneſſe can I finde in thoſe, who from the greateſt All Papiſticall Prieſtes excō municated, to y leaſt are al excommunicated & iudged Simoniacks and Heretickes, vnworthy of all Eccleſiaſticall honour and office? not onely by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures, To take money for y ſacramēts & ec lcſiaſtical offices Gela. Papa. l. quae 〈◊〉 Baptiz •• dis Item Ca •• ſt 〈◊〉 Grego. Naziāze c 1. 3 Q i ſtude: Ambr. de my te ca. cum ordina •• ntur Item can Q buſdam & pueri but alſo by their owne councells, decrées, and Canons.

For how many Councells, Decrées and Canons be there that doe forbid to demaunde and take, giftes, rewardes, preſents, hire or ſiluer, nor any thing whatſoeuer it bée, for creame, baptiſme, orders, laying on of hands: for y earth, nor Sepulture, neyther for Sacraments nor whatſoeuer office is in the Church, vnder payne of excommunication, and to be holden and reputed Simoniackes, Heretickes, and Sacriledgers, and depriued and depoſed from theire offices and honours? and not onely they that receiue the money, but alſo thoſe who doe giue it for ſuch things.

Thomas.

There ſhall be then by that compte no Chriſtian, who ſhall not be excommunicated. For among the prieſts Papiſts excommunicated there is not one but hath receiued money for ſuch thinges, nor among the people but hath diſburſed ſomewhat.

Theophilus.

Therefore you may conſider what communion may be in y Popiſh Church. For Saint Peter did Act 8. d. 20 not only curſe, in the authoritie of God Symon the Sorcerer, of whome Simony and Simoniackes haue taken their Simony & Simontack. name, but alſo the money that he offred for to buy the gifte of God withall. Now if Symon for offering y money hath receiued ſuch malediction, what ought it to be vppon them that doe cleane contrary to Saynt Peter, who doe not onely receiue but alſo doe compell the poore people to giue it them? I doe not héereby meane that the true Euangelycall Prieſts, and true Paſtors of the Church, are not worthy of their nouriſhment and rewarde: But I ſpeake agaynſt Merchaunts in the Churc 1. Pet. 2. 2 3 thoſe Merchaunts which are in the Church of God, whom Saynt Peter hath foreſpoken, who haue both GOD and the Diuill to ſell, Paradiſe nd Hell, holy things and prophane things, and which doe exerciſe merchandiſes of all things, and are polluted and d fil d with all Simonie Plati in v ta Leon pont. 2. Conc liu . Elbertinum. Ex cnoci. Telet 11. Ca. and Sacriledges, that they themſelues haue bene conſtrayned to condemone them. And he that will not beléeue me, lette him read Platine in the lyues of the Popes, and the decrees of the Councell of Elybertine holden in Spayne, in the time of Conſtantine: and that of Tholet, holden in the Quiequid. x yno. ca. 6. Nuil s. x conc. Calc. 1. q. 1. cap. Si quis. Ex conc. Carth. 4. cap Placuit. Emendan. Dictum. Conc . Tiburienſis. The ſelling of the buriall. Pſal. 24. a. 1. Math. 10. a 8. yeare. 713: and that of Calcedone: And the 4. of Carthage: And the Councell of Tiburien and Varenſian, who doe condempne namely thoſe that take money for the buryalls, ſaying after this manner: Wherefore doſt thou ſell the earth? Remember that thou art earth, and into the earth ſhalt retourne agayne. For the earthe is not mans, but as (the Pſalmiſt Dauid witneſſeth) the earth is the Lords, and all that therein is: If thou doe ſell the earth, thou ſhalt be holden guyltie of larcenie, as he that attributeth vnto himſelfe the thing of an other mans. Thou haſt receyued it of God fréely, giue it fréely. And bicauſe it is altogether forbidden to all Chriſtians, to ſell the earth vnto the dead, and to deny vnto them the graue and burial which is due vnto them.

Item, we muſt commaunde according to the authoritie Ex con. Vatenſi. cap. Praecipiendum. Grego. in Regiſtro. Ianuarius biſhoppe. Nereida. 13. q. 2. cap. Queſta eſt. Ephron. Gene. 23. b. 10 of the Canons, that one ſhould not demaunde or receiue any thing for mens burialls, nor for their graues. And hée that would ſée the opinion of Gregorie, lette him reade the Epiſtle, wherein he rebuked Ianuarius Biſhop of Sardinia, for that he aſked money of Ne eida, a noble woman, for the ſepulture and burying of hir daughter. And for to make him more aſhamed, he propounded vnto him the example of the Panim Ephron, and the honeſtie that he vſed towards Abraham touching his fielde for the buryall of his wife. What ſhall we ſay friende Euſebius of thoſe poore blynde men, blynded thorow their auarice, who ſo openly ſpeake agaynſt the worde of God, and all Councells and Canons? May not we rebuke and checke them with that, that Tertulian Tertulian Apolog. aduer. Gent. ca. 13. Tributary gods and to be ſold. rebuked the Gentiles and Panims, ſaying: The Gods that are moſt tributaryes and the greateſt gyuers, are to you the moſt holyeſt, but for to ſpeake better, thoſe that are the holyeſt, are the greateſt gyuers and trybutaryes. Their maieſtie is put to ſale and valued and is eſtéemed after the gayne that it bryngeth. Your begging Relygion, goeth about in Tauerns, Shops and Markets, Begging Religion. for to begge. Ye demaunde money for the pauement and bourding of the Temple, for the entring into the Temple and holy places. It is not lawful for to know your Gods without money Tertul. in Apo duer. Gent a. 42 Begging Gods Vnto vvhome vve muſt giue. or rewarde, for they are to be ſolde. We cannot ſuffice or haue inoughe both for men and for your begging gods, and lette vs not thinke that we are bounde to giue vnto any other, then vnto thoſe that aſke it. If Iupiter then will haue it, lette him put foorth his hande. For our mercy doth beſtow more goodes throughout all the ſtréete, then your relygion throughout all your Temples. Hée The charity of the auncient Chriſtians. declareth by thoſe woordes that the auncient Chriſtians beſtowed not their goodes in buylding of Temples, ſetting vp of Idolls, and in offring to them ſacrifices, and in féeding of thoſe Caphards & falſe Prophets, and in the meane ſeaſon to ſuffer the poore to periſhe with hunger, about in the ſtréetes: but doe beſtow them in nouriſhing and féeding of thoſe that were among them. Therefore he complayneth in the name of all the Chriſtians, that ſith that they haue beſtowed already ſo much goodes for to nouriſhe and féede the poore, they cannot prouide ſufficient to giue ſo much vnto the Idolls and Gods of the Panims, who doe neuer ceaſe to aſke and begge. He thinketh in his iudgement that the Chriſtians haue inough to doe to kéepe and prouide for the poore that are among them, without beſtowing ſo much coſt and charge to keepe and prouide for the Gods of the Panims, who are more coſtlye then the poore. What will he then now ſaye if hée did ſée the Prieſtes The tributaries of the Prieſtes. who are called Chriſtians and Lieuetenants of Saint Peter, to gather and receiue tribute of the Gods, of Images, of the quicke and the dead, and to make Gods, and men, the quicke and the deade tributaries, and to compell the poore Chriſtians to maynetayne and keepe ſo rychly theire falſe Gods and Prophets, the bones and the carcaſes of the dead, and to be at ſuch great charge and expences vppon the dead, and in the meane time doe ſuffer the poore members of Ieſus Chriſt and the lyuely Images of God to periſh with hunger. May he not rightly ſay, that all the Chriſtian Relygion is no other thing now, but a very beggery? And the Gods that are there of the beggers, doe neuer any other thinge but begge, and that the deade d e ſpende more then thoſe that be alyue.

Hillarius.

Theſe are daungerous beggers. For they Daungerous beggers. are lyke vnto thoſe luſty and ſtout beggers, who will chide and beate people, when they will not giue them that they would haue: and ſometimes they doe cutte Merchaunts throates. At the beginning they doe ſéeme but as though they did begge. And therefore they haue found out ſo many abuſes, for to make their begging the better worth, and for to ſtill theire ſcrippe the better. Afterwardes in the ende they make men to giue by force. But among all their inuentions, they neuer had any that brought them more gayne, then the God Pluto and his furnaces of Purgatorie. God P uto. The furnaces of Purgatorie Alcumiſtes For there they doe make the Philoſophicall ſtone, and by thoſe doe impoueriſh all the whole worlde, as the Alcumiſtes deceiue thoſe who do muſe after their furnaces. But theſe are more craftye and ſubtile. For they do enrich themſelues with other mens pouertie, and the Philoſophicall The Philoſophicall ſtone. ſtone is alwayes good for them. And if God would not haue had that the fire ſhoulde haue begunne in thoſe furnaces, as Theophilus hath ſayd, all the whole worlde would haue gone to ruyne, and there woulde nothing haue bene lefte.

Thomas.

I haue deſired of longe time to vnderſtande, how that fire hath begunne there, by what meanes, and by whom. But you haue not yet declared it vnto me.

Hillarius.

I am content to tell vnto you. Firſt, that The mouers of ſedition of Purgatorie. that I doe vnderſtande and know, and who haue bene the mouers of ſedition, which were the cauſes of that great offence, and afterwardes Theophilus ſhall tell you his aduice, which I doubte not but that it is better then mine. Sithens that Paradiſe and Hell were ſo ſhutte vp, and that there arryued dayly ſuche a greate number of ſoules in Purgatory, and haue bene kepte there ſo longe time, there is no doubt, but that it muſt néedes be that the fire was very great, for to kéepe ſuch a roſting and for to warme and make hot the kitchin and for to ſeethe the potte of ſo many Prieſtes and Moonkes, who are diſperſed and ſcattered abreade throughout all Chriſtendome to ſo great a number, there is no Arithmetician, how cunning ſoeuer he be in his A te, which can caſte or number them. And yet neuertheleſſe all the fire that was in theire kitchin begun of Purgatory. For they, neyther their family (which is not lyttle) doe eate no meate but that which is boyled and ſodden in that fire. For you oughte to vnderſtande, that foraſmuch as the number of y ſoules do become very many, and that Purgatory was the better furniſhed, ſo much the more greater did the fire kindle in their kitchin. For the reuenew was very great. Wherfore it muſt néedes be alſo y the trayne did encreaſe & augment, and that after Requiem, one ſhould ſing Gaudeamus. And y more they did The gaudeamus of the preſ es ſée y fire to burn y more they did blow it. To be ſhort al wēt by y diſſhes. They did caſt the houſe out of the windows. There was no more queſtion but to blow the coale, to reioyce and tryumphe, inſomuch that they themſelues did make the fire.

Thomas.

I doe not yet very well vnderſtande your meaning, except you doe ſpeake more playnly.

Hillarius.

I meane that they are fedde and nouriſhed ſo fatte and bigge about that kitchin, and haue inuented ſo many fables and lyes, for to mayntayne and augment that fire, that they haue vncouered and bewrayed themſelues: and alſo haue done ſuch wicked and moſt execrable things that whether men woulde or no, they haue bene conſtrayned to open their eyes, & to know that they were but deceiuers and ſeducers of the people, and that all their doctrine was nothing but fables and lyes, and eſpecially by theire Croyſarde, which hath brought forth Luther in place, who The croyaards was the firſt that diſcouered their diſceyte.

Theophilus.

It is very true, that that which you ſay hath ſerued for ſome thing. For where Ieſus Chriſt hath Mat. 5. b. 16 commaunded his Diſciples that their lyght ſhould ſo ſhine before men, that they ſeeing their good workes might be induced to glorifie God: Thoſe héere haue ſo lyghted and kindeled the fire of their Purgatory, that euery one beginneth to ſée the darke places wherein they haue put vs. But that were but a ſmall thing, if God thereby had not ſent from Heauen another fire, more vehement and burning, which The celeſtiall and euangelical fyre Gene. 19. e. 24. Pſa. 103. b. 8 Nomb. 14. d. 18. Exo. 34. a. 7. hath burned and conſumed it altogether.

Thomas.

Did the lyghtening fall vppon it, or the fire and brimſtone that conſumed Sodoma and Gomorra?

Theophilus.

Not yet. For God who is full of compaſſion and mercy, and longe ſuffering, will not ſodainly vſe ſuch rigor and vengeaunce. And therefore the fire that he hath ſent is more for to illuminate and make hotte, then for to burne and couſume. But it is of ſuch a nature and force that it draweth after it the fire of the wrath and indignation of God, vpon thoſe which by the ſame will not be illuminated. That is it of which Ieſus Chriſt ſpeaketh off, ſaying: I am come to put Luc. 12. g. 49. fire on the earth: and what is my deſire, but that it be kindeled. And for to declare better what is the vertue of that fire, and what fire he meaneth, he hath ſent his holy Ghoſt vnto his Apoſtles and Diſciples, lyke a tongue of fire, Act. 2. a. 3 Mat. 3. c. 11 Act. 1. a 5 The true fire of purgatory. witneſſing thereby, that it is hée, of whome Iohn Baptiſt hath ſpoken, ſaying: who ſhall baptize you with the holy Ghoſt and with fire. That is a fire that hath an other vertue, then to purge the purſes of the poore ſinners. For it purgeth in deede the ſoules, the which none other fire can doe. And therefore he hath ſent his Apoſtles for to carry Mat. 28. d. 19. Mar. 16. c. 15 Luc. 24. c. 36 Iohn. 20. a. 22 Eſa. 2. c. 25 that fire, and to ſette on fire all the world, that thorow the ſame all ſinnes, filthineſſe, and iniquities ſhould be purged in his Church as in a furnace, & that all that which was falſe mettall, ſhould be ſo tryed and melted that nothinge ſhould remayne but pure gold: and that all the relicks of 2. Cor. 5. d. 17. Heb. 1. a. 3 1. Cor. 5. b. 7 Act. 15. b. 9 The purgatotory of Ieſus Chriſt & that of the Pope. the olde Adam ſhould be burned and conſumed, in ſuche ſorte that all the true children of God ſhould be made new creatures throughe the power and vertue of Ieſus Chriſt, who alone hath made the purgation of our ſinnes, puryfying our hearts through fayth, waſhing and making them cleane with his precious bloude.

Hillarius.

Behold a Purgatorye much differing from the other. For in the other they doe nothing without money, but in this heere we muſt not haue any.

Theophilus.

But he that will giue and offer vnto it is accurſed of God, and ſent to hell fire, as it appeareth by the reprehenſion that Saint Peter did ſo rigorouſly vnto Symon the Sorcerer, curſing both him and his money that Act s. d 10 he offered.

Hillarus.

I am not abaſhed, althoughe hée were a begger. For he was very rigorous and cruell vnto thoſe that did bring him money. Thoſe that ſay they are his ſucceſſours haue not done the lyke: But cleane contrary, that is, that he that will be beſt welcome vnto them, Exo. 13. b. 15 Deut. 10. d. 16 muſt not come emptie handed. For it is wrttten: Thou ſhalt not appeare before the Lord emptie. They haue well aduiſed on thoſe places that ſpeake of bringing, for to make them ſerue for their gayne and profite: although that they doe vnderſtande nothing of them. And therefore they ſay vnto thoſe that doe bring any thing vnto them: Intra in gaudium Domini tui: Enter into the ioye of thy Lord. Centuplum accipies, & vitam aeternam poſsidebis. Thou ſhalt receiue an hundreth times as much, and poſſeſſe eternall lyfe.

Theophilus.

Saint Peter ſtudyed in an other ſchoole, and remembred the commaundement that the maiſter gaue vnto him ſaying: Freely ye haue receyued, fréely gyue. Mat. 10. 28. And for that cauſe hath hée himſelfe preached in his name, ſaying: ye were not redéenied with corruptible things, as 1. Pet. 1. d. 18 ſiluer and golde, from your bayne conuerſation, which yée receyued by the traditions of the fathers: but with the precious bloud of Chriſt, as of a Lambe vndefiled, and without ſpot. Foraſmuch then as it is ſo, are not thoſe men The panishmē? vppon thoſe vvhich re ect y goſpell, & doe go to a ſtrange fire worthy to be caſt into euerlaſting fire, if they doe reiecte ſuch grace, when it is preſented and offered vnto them? and if they refuſe to bée purged with that celeſtiall fire, which was not ſent vnto them for to conſume them, but for to ſaue them?

Hillarius.

Wée muſt not doubte of it.

Theophilus.

All other fire then beſides that is a ſtraunge fire, the which ye Lord hath forbidden, willing & cōmaunding Leuit. 10. a. r. Nomb. 16 g. 46. Nomb. 26. g. 26. Eſai. 6. c. 6. that we ſhould vſe onely the ſame of his temple and aulter, of which the Seraphin tooke and brought the cole in his hand, wherewith he purged the lippes and mouth of Eſay. Alſo they ought to way and conſider the example of Dathan and Dathan and Abiron. Nomb. 16. e. 31. Abiron and what profit they receiued in offering of ſtraunge fire, other then that which was commaunded of God. They offered it, but it was to their owne hurt and deſtruction. For God kindled fire againſt them and they were burned and conſumed, as the Babilonians were wyth the fire of their furnace. Danl. 3. c. 22. Nadab and Abihu. Leuit. 10. a. 1. And if God dyd not pardon Nadab and Abihu the proper ſonnes of Aaron, but cauſed them to bée burned and conſumed openly in the ſight of all the people, onelye bicauſe that through negligence they did take other fyre then of the Temple, doe they thincke that hée will ſupport and beare rather wyth thoſe who dyſpiſe the fire of Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne, and of his holy Ghoſt: Therefore hee ſayde not wythout a cauſe, when hée did ſende his Dyſciples for to bringe that fire, ſayinge: When you ſhall enter into any Citte or houſe, if they wyll not •••• ue you, Mat. 10. b. 14. ſhake off the duſt of your féete in a witneſſe agaynſt them. For truely I ſaye it ſhall bée eaſier for the lande of Sodoma and Gomorra in the daye of iudgement, then for thoſe of that generation. Wherefore I ſayd but euen now ye that celeſtiall fire draweth with it the fire & brimſtone, which conſumed Sodoma and Gomorra. For he that ſhall not be purged by that fire in this world, it is neceſſary that he be conſumed in that hell fire. And therefore it is better for vs that we doe holde our ſelues vnto that Purgatory, ſith that it hath pleaſed God to bring vs thether agayne, then to ſéeke an other, which in ſteede to purge vs, doth burne vs in hell fire.

Thomas.

If it be ſo, it is a greate deale better. But I would gladly know how that fire hath bene quenched out ſo long time, and now kindled againe.

Theophilus.

You may well vnderſtand that when men woulde kindle an other, they muſt quenche out thys heere, and alſo wh men wold build an other Purgatory, they muſt ruinate and deſtroy that of Ieſus Chriſt. For they cannot agrée together: and it is impoſſible that the one can endure & continue with the other, ſith that the one purgeth without The cauſe vvherefore the purgatory of Ieſus Chriſt hath hene vnknovvne. money; through the onely grace of God, and the other is an inſatiable goulfe, which melteth & conſumeth all the golde & ſiluer of the world, neither purgeth it the ſinnes, but maketh all thoſe guiltie of hell fire that ſéeke in it their purgation.

Hillarius.

I doe compte him to be fooliſh & mad that had rather conſume and waſt all his ſubſtaunce for to buy hell, then to receiue Paradiſe fréely, which ſhal coſt him nothing.

Thomas.

In hearinge you ſpeake, I am greatly eſtonied to ſee how men haue chaunged their nature. For they do all willingly runne to the beſt chepe, & there is none but bad rather receiue good merchaundiſe, if it coſte nothinge, then to buy the bad very deere: or poyſon for to kill in ſteede of bread which ought to nouriſh, & which ſhall be preſented and offered vnto him without money.

Theophilus.

And yet neuertheleſſe wée doe ſée the ſame put in practiſe euery day: wherein we may well know how God hath taken away the ſences and vnderſtanding of men, who doe take ſuch great pleaſure to deſtroy themſelues, and to loſe both their bodies, ſoules and goodes: For they are mad to runne after ye prieſts for to buy death, and refuſe life, which is preſented vnto thē fréely and thanckfully by Ieſus Chriſt.

Hillarius.

I beléeue it well, & behold the cauſe wherefore al theſe collyars and kitchin men, who doe liue vpon that fire, haue endcuoured themſelues as much as lyeth in them, to quench out altogether the fire of the goſpel of Ieſus Chriſt, which quencheth & putteth out theirs, bicauſe that it is more vehement and more violent, and conſumeth it into Aſſhes.

Thomas.

Is it then true that it is quenched euen as you ſay, and that there remaineth nothing whole?

Theophilus.

There remaineth yet ſome chamber or cabine, which are not yet all burned. But ſithence that once the fire of Ieſus Chriſt hath begun there to kindle, it will not ceaſe vntill ſuch time as it hath conſumed it all into Aſſhes, for that is a fire which none can quench.

Hillarius.

I do much meruaile that they doe not all runne for water to caſt vpon it. Whereto ſerueth their holy water? wherefore doe they not no we make it to ſhew his vertues, as well as againſt the lightninges & tempeſtes when they coniure them?

Theophilus.

They do cleane contrary. For euery one runneth to the fire, to the fagots, to the brimſtone, to the lights & to the bellowes for to make it the more to burne. And they are ſo hot after it that there is neyther, To put out fire by fire. King, Prince, Lord Bourgis, Merchaunt, or Labourer, whom they do not prouoke to blow their fire & to caſt on fagots, in ſuch ſort that it is become ſo great, that men doo ſée in many places that it is like to conſume thoſe that bée aliue.

Thomas.

Can they quench it by that meanes?

Theophilus.

You are not deceiued, hath the fire of men vſed to quench the fire of God? No, but they doe kindle it dayly more and more.

Hillarius.

I know the cauſe wherefore they doe it. They do greatly feare leaſt thoſe Lutherians and heretickes ſhould not be dampned, and that they ſhould not go into hell, ſith that they denie the Purgatory, and that they will not enter, therefore they woulde make them to féele it in this world, and to purge them from their ſinnes, & to put them in Paradiſe againſt their wils. They doe well declare thereby, that they differ from the Perſians, The Perſians. Cice. Tuſ. q. li. 1 Strab. li. 15. Volater. Herod. li. 1. 2. 4. Reg. 16. a. 3. &. 17. e. 17. 2. Cor. 28. a. 3. Pſal. 106. f. 37 Lact. de ſal. rel. li. 1. ca. 21 Euſ. de prep. eu. li. 4. Plini. li. 7. Dtoni. Hali. Diod in. 2. biblioth. The Pope maketh princes his haugmen. who will not burne the dead bodyes, as the Greekes & Latines do, bicauſe they hold the fire as a God; and they thinck that it ſéemeth that it was much vnſéemely for his maieſtie to defile himſelfe with dead bodies, and to nouriſh him with fleſh. But theſe héere do giue him none other meat, but do ſacrifice to him men, as the Idolatres dyd God Moloch, Pluto, Saturnus, and dyd nouriſhe them wyth mans fleſhe. But one maye replye vnto mée, and ſaye, that they dyd vnto him that honour to nouriſhe hym wyth lyue fleſh.

Theophilus.

I am not ſo much amazed to ſée them doo that, as I am to ſée how they make the princes & lords their hangmen, putting into their hands thoſe whom they would haue to be executed.

Hillarius.

They ſhewe themſelues to bée the ſucceſſors of thoſe, who ſayde vnto Pylate, ſpeaking of Ieſus Chriſte: we haue a lawe and by our lawe he ought to dye. But it Iohn. 19. 2. 7. is not lawfull for vs to put any man to death. And therefore they praye ayde of the ſeculer power, the whiche men dare not refuſe. I doe thincke that many Princes & Lordes doe feare leaſt it happen vnto them as it happened vnto Nicanor the preuoſt of Alexander, againſt the Bactrianians. Nicanor. The Hircanians and Bactrianians did vſually giue vnto the dogges thoſe that were very olde, and did thincke it to be the Bactrianians Hircantans. beſt burying. For that cauſe the common people nouriſhed vp common dogs for that purpoſe, and the riche men tame and demeſticall dogges for to ſerue them for that purpoſe: Cicero. ſi. 1. Tuſ. qua. Sixt. Emper. Hiero. aduer. louin. lib. 2. Canes ſepulchrales. The dogges for burying. Cal. Rhod. Lect. aut li. 17. ca. 19. Aduer. louini. li. 2. P. Roſſet a princely poet. Chanons of Mont faucon. And therefore they called them in their language the dogges of Sepulchres or graue dogges. Then when Nicanor was come vnto the Bactrianians, hée endeuoured himſelfe to reforme and correct that vile cuſtome and execrable crime. But he could neuer take order to reforme it, but to the contrary as witneſſeth ſainct Hierome, they did riſe againſte him, in ſuch ſort that he had almoſt loſt his kingdome. Now if we will conſider the thinges and way them well, what are in theſe daies our Prieſts and Moonkes who do liue vpon carrion, as the dogs of the Sepulchres doo. For that cauſe I thincke, that Roſſet the Poet of Sauoy, called the dogges, the Chanons of mount Faucon, as I haue heard him oftentimes ſay in his leſſons. Sith thē they haue vſed to eat mans fleſh, it is no meruaile though men do feare them, & that they féede them deintely, as they doe in Hircania. For there is not almoſt any great houſe but hath his domeſtical dogs, beſides thoſe that are kept & fed commonly in euery towne & village.

Theophilus.

I doe much doubt that the ſame that they are afraide off will happen vnto them, ſith ye they wil ſet no good order, according to ye power that God hath giuen vnto them. I do greatly feare, that in ye ende thoſe dogs wil dououre thē altogether. For they haue already wel begun.

Hillarius.

Me Cicer. de nat. Deo. lib. 2. thincks that they take ye Pope for Moloch, Pluto or Saturne, whō men cannot appaiſe without ſacrificing vnto them men. The Pope woulde bée called our holy father, but that is ſuch a father as Saturne was, who did eat his owne children Saturne and Rea. (if the Poets haue not lyed) but yet Rea his wife hid them from him, and kept them ye he ſhould not eate them. But the court of Rome, & the papiſticall Church, who would be called our holy mother Church, doth eate them as well as our holy father: and in ſtéede to hide them from him, ſhe ſéeketh euery where for to deuoure thē with him. Wherfore we may very well giue credit to the Poets, & accompt them as Prophetes herein. For me thincks that they haue truely Ould. Faſt 4. propheſied and figured 〈◊〉 thoſe Gods which we haue. I Sueto. in Ang. would that the Princes would better aduiſe themſelues in their doings, and that they doe not vnto the Pope, as Auguſtus Caeſar did vnto Iulius, vnto whom he ſacrificed thrée hundreth men before his Alter the ninth of March of thoſe that yéelded themſelues.

Thomas.

I know not what to ſay of your matters, and am much abaſhed that Euſebius holdeth his peace all this while without ſpeaking any woorde, that he taketh not the quarell in hande & the matter in earneſt for to defend the holy mother ye church to which he beareth ſo great zeale. How much doth purgatory coſt thée euery yere Euſebius?

Euſebius.

I will not make thée accompt, nor I wil not haue the trumpet blowen when I do any good déede.

Thomas.

I will tell thée the cauſe it that be true that they ſay, you and I haue loſt much money, & our matter fareth very euill. Wherefore me thinckes you ſhoulde anſwere ſomething, and alledge ſome reaſon againſt that ye they ſay, or otherwiſe me thinckes you wil be vāquiſhed, & that you do proue all that which you haue heard of them.

Euſebius.

What reaſon will you that I alledge vnto people without reaſon? It maketh me to tremble to heare their blaſphemies, and I doe meruaile how God can ſuffer them, inſomuch that in hearing them me thinckes that the earth ſhould open hir mouthe and ſwallowe them vp. A lyttle thing would haue made me to haue gene away, and I am amazed how I could heare it ſo long.

Theophilus.

Haue you found our matters ſo out of reaſon.

Euſebius.

But what reaſon is there to mocke ſo wyth God & with our holy mother the Church? I do greatly feare that God will not giue you grace to go from hence into purgatory: But that he wil ſend you into hell, & that you ſhalbe of the number of thoſe vnto whom Ieſus Chriſt will ſaye: Goe ye curſed into euerlaſting fire. For I wel know by your Mat. 25. d. 41 owne words that you do ſmell of the brimſtone and fagots, and that you are rancke heretickes. I doubt not, but ye there hath ben a great many burned that haue ben honeſter men then you are.

Hillarius.

Nor I alſo doubt it. ſhe cannot denie but that the tyrants haue burned many holy Martyres, for the Goſpel of Martyrs. Ieſus Chriſt, & doe yet ſtill vnto this day a great many honeſter men then we. For if they had not bene good & honeſt men, they would not haue by their bloud ſealed the witneſſe of the truth.

Thomas.

I do wel perceiue that Euſebius wil leape by and by vpon the Aſſe, and will be in a rage, if men do vere him much.

Euſebius.

Who would not be in a rage, bearing ſuch matters? It were inough to make all men aliue in a rage, that haue any zeale vnto the holy catholike Church.

Thomas.

Foraſmuch as thou thinckeſt that wée are ſo farre paſt reaſon, I pray thée, to aunſwere vnto that which I wil aſke thée. And if thou haue any good reaſō, ſhew it foorth, for to draw mée from errour & hereſie, if thou thinkeſt ye I am fallen into any.

Euſebius.

I will not diſpute nor plead with you, but I had rather follow the counſaile of ſainct Paul, who commaundeth me to reiect him that is an Tit. 3. c. 10 hereticke. For it is forbidden to diſpute with them. And I To diſpute vvith Heretickes. do wel know, that I ſhall profit nothing, but to be peruerted, if I were not very ſtrong in my faith. For as farre as I can perceiue, you are already to obſtinate and hardned in your hereſies: and as ſaint Paul ſayth: Euill woords corrupt 1. Cor. 15. c. 33 good manners.

Theophilus.

You haue ſpoken your minde. But before that you do condemne vs for heretickes, we muſt be vanquiſhed of hereſie. And if it ſhould be ſo that we ſhould fal into any errour & hereſie, yet thou canſt not cal vs hereticks, except it be knowne vnto thée that we were the authours and The ſignificatiō and definition of an hereticke Auguſt. 1. li. de vtilita. credend. Et. 24. quae. 3. ca. Haereticus. inuenters of ſects, or that we were obſtinate and hardned in errour, and that through praiſe, arogancie, preſumption or couetouſneſſe, & for ſome worldly gaine or profit, we woulde ſpeake againſt the truth. For according to S. Auguſtines diffinition, ſuch men ought to be taken for heretickes. But I beſéech God we be not led with ſuch affection. And when you ſhall know perfectly that we are heretickes, yet ſainct Paul Titus. 3. ca. 10. doth not commaund vs to reiect an heretick at the firſt daſh, but after once or twice admonition, when he ſheweth himſelfe incorrigible. And as yet you haue not admoniſhed nor corrected vs, wherfore you cannot lawfully accuſe vs, neither of obſtination, nor yet of hereſie. And to the ende that wée ſhould giue the leſſe occaſion, I am content to heare patiently all yt which you will ſay, and beléeue that I ſhall receyue reaſon for paiment, vpon this condition alſo that you wyll heare mée, & talke with me quietly, as though you did count me for your Chriſtian brother, vntill ſuch time as you haue vanquiſhed me by your reaſons, & that you did fully know my obſtination.

Thomas.

I would gladly ſée Euſebius ſkirmiſh with you: But in the meane time I would alſo as gladly heare that ſome would ſpeake of dinner, and to let that ſkirmiſh alone till afterward. For I do ſée ye the ſunne is already very hye, and thincke that we haue forgotten to dine: For I haue a ſtomacke that barketh as the hungry hound, which kéepeth me ye I cannot forget it.

Hillarius.

Thervnto I am thy compalgnion. Therfore I finde thy counſaile good. I know not how it is with you, but with me I haue a good appetite to drinck.

Euſebius.

God knoweth that you are yet faſting at this maſſe. For you haue accuſtomed to faſt.

Hillarius.

Although I haue broken my faſt twice, yet you ought not to be abaſhed although that I am much altered. For we haue bene all ye day about that fire of Purgatory, which hath ſo altered me that I thincke that all the holy water of the Prieſtes cannot quench the fire and the thirſt which is in my throate.

Euſebius.

I dooe beléeue verye well that you loue the wine better then he water, & that ye ſame is the holy water that you require.

Hillarius,

I do alſo beléeue that you are not much contrary from mine opinion, and I do not thinck, how good a catholike ſoeuer you be, that you would chaunge with a prieſt a pinte or quarte of wine, for a quarte of his holy water. At ye leaſtwiſe I would not: for I doe finde the one better and more profitable then the other. I know not how ye ſoules of Purgatory do like of the water, but I do like better of the wine: And if I muſt néedes drincke water, I had rather to mingle it with a little wine, then with ſalt, as the Prieſts do in their holy water.

Euſebius.

They do it not for to drincke.

Hillarius.

I beléeue it well: for they are not ſo deintie: & they loue the wine as well as I. But wherefore doe they it?

Thomas.

For to deface & purge the ſinnes by the ſprinckling thereoff.

Hillarius.

I am aſhamed of their folly. One may Apothegma of Diogenes for the holy vvater Ouid, Faſt. 1. Ah nimium ſaciles, qui triſtia crimina cadii. Exigua tolli poſio putalls aqua. very well ſay vnto them as Diogenes ſaid vnto a certeyne Panim, who ſprinckled himſelfe with water for to purge his ſinnes, after their auncient manner. O miſerable man (ſaith he) if thou haſt ſ •• led in thy Grammer and committed a fault and incongruite, thou canſt not be abſolued wc ſprinckling of the water: how doſt thou then thinck with the ſprinckling of the water to be abſolued and waſhed from thy ſinnes?

Thomas.

It ſéemeth vnto me that if you haue ſuch great thirſt as you ſay, you wil not begin to enter into a new matter, for to make vs faſt any longer.

Theophilus.

Admit it were ſo yt we had a day of faſting. For it is now Lent, & although it were not yet I do beléeue yt Euſebius would haue faſted & peraduenture Thomas alſo. And when we ſhalbe all vnder the Popes religion, we muſt thē faſt the Lent al out, or els at the leaſtwiſe a great part thereoff.

Hillarius.

It is true, and it is better for vs to faſt at libertie, then through compulſion. But ſith that ye be all of that minde, let vs goe then to dinner.

¶ Finis primi Dialog.
THE SVMME OF THE ſeconde booke.

SIth that we haue already declared in the firſt Dialogue the agreeing of the Platonicall, Poeticall, and Papiſticall Purgatory, and the diuers manners of purgations, that haue bene, aſwell among the Panims as the Chriſtian Idolaters, and howe all thoſe things were inuented by the Prieſtes for to ſerue their auarice, and rapacitie, the which was more greater in them, then it was euer in others: Now we wil bring in, declare and ſette foorth perticulerly their other practiſes, & the office which thei do for the dead, & how at the funeralls, burialls & mortuaries they follow more the errours and abuſes of the Panims, then the examples of the true ſeruaunts of God aſwell in their ſingings and lamentacions that they make for the deade, as in torches, lyghtes, belles, ryngings, and ſepultures. Therefore I haue intituled this Dialogue: The office of the deade: In which alſo we will declare, what is the honour that is due vnto the deade: what ought to be the burialls, funeralls, and the ſorrowing of the Chriſtians: what hath bene the beginning, in making, cōmemoration & prayers for the dead. Alſo we will declare the principall poynts of the Maſſe of Requiem, that they doe ſing for the dead, and wee will proue by their owne words, that they doe pray rather for the Saints and Saintes, and for thoſe that are in Paradiſe in ioye and celeſtiall reſt, then for thoſe which are in paynes, be it in Purgatorie, or in any other place, according to their owne doctrine: and how by their owne praiers they ſufficiently teſtifie and witneſſe that in their doctrine there is nothing that is certeine, and that they holde not thoſe whome they doe iudge to be in Purgatory, as aſſured of their ſaluation.

It ſhalbe alſo declared what is the true Purgatory of Ieſus Chriſt, and the true ſatiſfaction of the Chriſtians towards God, for their ſinnes: and how the Papiſticall Purgatory and ſatiſfactions doe diſagree altogether from the promiſes of god, & the remiſsion of ſinnes by Ieſus Chriſt, It ſhalbe declared in lyke maner for what cauſe God doth chaſtiſe and puniſh the faythfull in this world, and not in the other: what are the good workes, and wherefore God will iudge men by them: and how we muſt watch and do penaunce, and trauayle whilſt we are in this lyfe, without truſting vppon the good deedes that other will doe for vs after our death. Item, what are the good deeds that we ought to doe for the dead, and wherein we may ſuccour & helpe them, and the great iniury & wrong that the Popes and the Prieſtes doe vnto Ieſus Chriſt, and to all the Chriſtian people, holding them in the ſincke and dungeon of their peruerſe doctrine and traditions: What fiſhermen they are, and what their flouds and ryuers are wherein they fiſh and catch the golde and ſiluer and not the men: what are their relicks and holy bodyes: and how they do abuſe the dead bodyes to the great diſhonour of God and of his Saints as the Coniurers and Sorcerers doe. And wherto ſerueth all that which is done at the burialls, and chiefely to thoſe which are buried in the habite or coole of Saint Fraunces. And in the ende we declare how Ieſus Chriſt contayneth in himſelfe all that which is needefull for vs, both in lyfe and death.

For to enter then into the matter, Theophilus bringeth the other in order.

THE SECOND DIALOGVE which is called the office of the dead.

THeophilus. You did erewhile complayne bicauſe that in ſpeaking of Purgatory wée were ſo affectioned after it, that it hav almoſt made vs to forgette our dinner: But now I doe feare very much the contrary, that the dinner doth make vs forget purgatory, and the reſidue which yet remained to be thought on.

Hillarius.

You know very well that the Prieſtes haue accuſtomed to breake their faſt, and to eate the ſoppe in the wyne in the middeſt of their Maſſe. Wherefore it were good reaſon that we did pauſe a lyttle in the middes of our Maſſe, for to breathe our ſelues. For we haue ſayd and ſunge inough for the dead for to drinke once: And yet wée are more beneficiall vnto them then the Prieſtes. For wée haue not dronken vppon their coſtes and expences.

Thomas.

Therefore you are ſo much the ſoberer. For me thinkes that you haue not druncke very much according to that that you ſay you were a thirſt.

Hillarius.

I toke that which ſufficed me and no more, and was content. For it doth to me more good, then all that which the Prieſtes and Moonkes haue eaten and dronken in the name of the dead; doth profite the dead. It is already longe ſince that I would haue brought in for you that, but I doe alwayes wayte when that Euſebius would beginne. But I know very well that the dinner hath a lyttle abated his choler, and that the aduice and counſayle of Seneca is good, who Seneca. counſayleth thoſe that are ſubiecte to ire & choler not to faſt nor to take in hande any wayghty matter, if they do finde faſting hurtfull to thoſe vvhich are ſubiect to vvrath. themſelues by experience to be more enclyned to wrath before they haue eaten then after, bicauſe that hunger increaſeth it the more.

Euſebius.

Therefore doe you breake your faſt ſo willyngly in the morning, and are ſo much afraide to faſt. You muſt not impute my choller vnto faſting, but to your importunate and wicked tongue: For he muſt haue great patience which would not be moued to wrathe through your words.

Theophilus.

I would gladly know thy reaſons wherfore. Admitte that all that which this holy father hath preached this day be true, and all that which he at other times hath made vs to beléeue of Purgatory: Firſt I demaund of thée, whether the Prieſts & Moonkes can delyuer the ſoules which are kept in that fire, through their Prayers, Suffrages, good déedes, Uigiles, Maſſes and Pardons?

Euſebius.

Who will ſay the contrary but the Hereticks?

Theophilus.

If it be ſo, wherefore are they ſo cruell that they doe not delyuer them incontinent from the fire, ſith that they haue the power to doe it? Doe they delyte to ſee them frye, roſte, and burne with a lyttle fire, as they doo The crueltye of the preſtes tovvards the ſoules. thoſe whome they condempne for Heretickes, for to make them ſuffer more greater torment? If you ſée an houſe on fire, and that ther were a lyttle childe, or a poore man with in the houſe, crying for helpe and ſuccour, would you not runne by and by and fetch them out, if you might poſſible?

Thomas.

Although it were but a Deg, yet one ſhould haue pyttie to heare him cry and howle.

Theophilus.

That ſame is moſt true. Wherefore you Miſeremini mei, miſeremini mei, ſaltem vos amici mei, quia manus Domini tetigit me. Lugentibus in purgatorio. Qui torrentur ardore nimio, Et torquentur ſine remedie, Subuentat tua compaſsio, O Maria. may iudge Euſebius, what people thoſe are, whome you haue in ſuch eſtimacion, & accompteſt for the holy Church. They doe ſing in their Uigills, in the name of the ſoules: Haue mercy vppon mee, haue mercy vppon mée, you at the leaſt that are my friends. And in their Maſſe and in theire Lugentibus in Purgatorio: They doe cry vnto the Uirgin Mary that ſhe haue pittie & compaſſion of theſe poore ſoules which doe lament themſelues in Purgatorye, and which are roſted with a very great fire and tormentes without remedy. Wherefore doe not they themſelues haue compaſſion on them and giue them helpe.

Euſebius.

What doe they then? Doe you not ſée how by thoſe very words, they doe pray vnto the Uirgin Mary for them, and howe they ſhew that they are their aduocaters and interceſſors towards hir.

Theophilus.

But doe they that for the compaſſion that they haue of them?

Hillarius.

They declare it ſufficiently inough. For if one giue them no money, they will lette them roſt and burne perpetually, although they haue power to delyuer them, as they brag and boaſt themſelues they can.

Theophilus.

Thereoff I am much abaſhed, The rule of the diuine ſeruice for the dead. Durant. Ratio diui. off. li. 7. Rub. de off. mort. and yet more, bicauſe it is written and ordayned in theire rules of their diuine office, that if it chaunce that the yeres minde of thoſe that be dead fall vppon a Sunday, or vpon any ſolempne feaſt, it ought not to be delayed nor put off vntill the next day, as it is vſed in the office and feaſts of Saints, if they fall vppon ſuch dayes: But muſt rather aduaunce the office and prayers for the dead in the dayes before, for to comfort them the better, and to preuent and mittigate the paynes that they to ſuffer in Purgatory. Of which they do giue ſuch reaſons, ſaying: that the dead & the Vnde verſus Non peccat cantans, qui iuſtam praeuenit horam: Sed peccat cantans qui iuſtam prae terit horam. lo. Maio. 4. ſent diſt. 45. q. 1. Long & ſhort Maſſes. ſoules of ye dead haue neede of our ayde, but not ye Saints. Wherefore the Saints which be in Paradiſe haue more greater leaſure to tarry, then the poore ſoules that are holden in the fire of Purgatory. Whervnto agréeth very well the queſtion which Maioris made: To witte, what Maſſe is moſt profitable for the dead, eyther that which is ſayde quickely and haſtely, as the cuſtome is in Fraunce to ſinge them: or els that which is ſayd leaſurely, and in which they beſtowe a greate time, as they doe in Scotlande and in Spayne.

Hillarius.

What is the ſolution of the queſtion?

Theophilus.

That the ſame that is ſooneſt diſpatched is the beſt: For the ſoules doe not feele the comfort that they oughte to receiue of the Maſſes which are ſunge in theire name, vntill ſuch time as the Maſſe is done.

Hillarius.

And therefore they ſay as I thinke. Ite Miſſa eſt. Go your way the Maſſe is done, and doe beléeue that then the ſoules haue leaue for to depart out of purgatory. But by that accompt the Maſſes of Hunters ſhould be the The hunters Maſſe. The requiems of the poores and of the rich. beſt. And the poore ſhould haue more greater aduauntage then the rich. For they doe diſpatch their Maſſes quickely with a lyttle Requiem, yet the Prieſtes doe eate the one halfe for the great haſt that they haue. It ſéemeth playnelye To go into Paradiſe in poſt, & vpon a •• rſlytter or vvagon. that they woulde ſende them into Paradiſe in poſte. But the riche they doe carrye vppen Horſelytters or Wagons with great Requiems, which continueth euerye one of them more then tenne myles, and are more then tenne ells long. But I thinck that they haue regarde vnto that, that the moſt part of thoſe arrant théeues were goutie, and they are yet afraide to doe them hurte and to trouble their goutes.

Thomas.

I had rather to haue the goute and to be carryed into Paradiſe vppon the moſt trotting horſe that can be founde, then to burne in that ſo terrible a fire. But I maruayle, if it be ſo, wherefore it is forbidden that the Prieſtes ſhall ſay but one Maſſe in a day, ſith that they are One Maſſe in a daye. ſo profitable for the dead. Me thinketh that the Prieſtes ſhould neuer ceaſe ſinging of Maſſes at all times and that they ought to forſake their meate and foode to doe that. For if they were in a fire, they woulde gladly that one ſhould leaue all things for to helpe thē out. Furthermore, howe much the more a thinge is the betre , ſo much the more the frequentacion of the ſame ought to be the better.

Hillarius.

I am alſo eſtonyed that the Papiſts doe not all the good déedes that they determine to doe for the deade all in one day without tarying for the yeremindes, and cauſing the poore ſoules to languiſh ſo long in that fire, & to ſuffer them ſo long time to roſte: and that thoſe that ordayne Maſſes in their Teſtaments, doe not cauſe them to bée diſpatched in an houre, without lymiting ſo long time.

Theophilus.

Alſo Maioris did very well ſay, that the ſame 4. Cent diſt. 45. 41. ſhould be the better, although that afterwards, he added that a Maſſe which is ſaid more treatably, doth recompence through the deuoſion of him which ſayeth it, the quickeneſſe and breuitie of that which is ſayde in haſt.

Hillarius.

I beléeue very well that they had rather haue all their money together that they looke for, then to cauſe them to languiſh in tarying for it, as the poore ſoules, fearing leaſt any thing ſhould eſcape them. Therefore they ſay, that the candle that goeth before, is better then that The candle that goeth before. which commeth after.

Thomas.

I aſſure thée that I had an Aunt, whom they had put that into hir heade that the To bury one before he is dead. An hiſtory. muſt be buryed before ſhe be deade.

Hillarius.

How could ſhe doe that?

Thomas.

Shée hath done during hir lyfe all hir good déedes, as ſhe would haue that one ſhould doe for hir after hir death, carryinge candells, and ſprinklyng holy water vppon the graue in which ſhe would be buryed, and cauſinge the Prieſtes to ſing, as they ſhould haue done if ſhe had bene dead. But the ſame happened well for them. For afterwards ſhee was conuerted to your law, and the moſt part of all hir parents and kinſfolke. Wherefore the Prieſtes ſhould haue loſt all that.

Hillarius.

And therefore it is not without cauſe yt they make ſuch haſt of offerings, but without the ſame they make no haſt.

Theophilus.

It ſhould ſéeme to thoſe yt heare thē read vpon their bookes, ye they haue great pittie & compaſſion of thoſe captiue ſoules, ſith that they had rather delay ye honor yt they would do vnto ye ſaints, & their office, then ye ſame of the dead, & the ſolace & comforte that they would giue vnto them. But ye practiſe of their doctrine and experience declareth vnto vs the contrary. For hée that will not giue them readye money in theire handes without all queſtion, thoſe poore ſoules ſhould neuer haue any helpe of them, or at the leaſt it ſhalbe but lyttle, and they ſhall tarry their leaſure. And ſo by that meanes the poore ſhalbe alwayes miſerable, and cannot enter into Paradiſe for want of money, if there be ſuch auarice in Paradiſe as is among them.

Hillarius.

Some men ſaye they haue hearde their lamentations, and that you doe wronge vnto them, and that The lamentations of the preſts for the dead. they are not ſo pittileſſe as you make them. For in ſinging for the dead, they lament ſo piteouſly, that men would ſay that they did wéepe and mourne, as if they had buryed their father and mother. But it is eaſie to bée ſéene, that they are not ſo ſorrowfull as they ſéeme they are: But that thoſe are the teares of the Crocodile, who Crocodili la. chrymae. The vveping of the Crocodil weepeth when he would eate and deuoure men. Wherefore the more I beholde them, ſo much the truer do I finde the aunſwere of him, of whome one aſked what kinde of people doe lyue now a dayes moſt ioyfully and fréely vppon What men are moſt free and priuiledged. the earth? and who haue the greateſt franchiſes and priuiledges?

Thomas.

What aunſwered he?

Hillarius.

That they were the Prieſts and the Phiſtcians. For the Prieſtes are alwayes ioyfull and merry as you heare them ſing at the burialls, when all the other do wéepe and lament. The Phiſicians alſo haue great lyberties The priuiledge of the vvicked Phiſicions and hangmen. Plin. li. 29. c. 1. Medico tatum hommem occidiſſe impunitas ſumma eſt. and franchiſes. For it is lawfull for them to kill men, not onely without receiuing puniſhment for it, but which is more, they haue and receiue money for their labour?

Thomas.

The hangmen are aſmuch priuiledged.

Hillarius.

You ſay true, I am abaſhed that Plinie hath not ioyned them together, when he did ſpeake of the priuiledge of the Phiſicians. But it ſeemeth vnto me, that they ought yet to haue wages of the Prieſts. For they doe not neglect and fore ſlow their buſineſſe, but doe bring goodly hydes into The tanne fatte of the preſtes. their tanne fatte.

Theophilus.

Yea the barbarous and ignorant Emperiques and Arabians, which ought to agrée with them, and the Theologians Sophiſtes. But they cannot gette much with the cunning Phiſicians and which are of a good conſcience.

Hillarias.

And therefore me thinkes that thoſe cannot well agrée with the Prieſtes, For the Prieſtes deſire none other thing but death: And the good Phiſicians The good Phiſicians. doe not trauayle but to driue death away, & to giue health, and to kéepe and mayntayne the lyfe of men.

Thomas.

There is nothing truer then that thou ſayſt. For I my ſelfe haue hearde them how they doe reioyce of their poore pariſhieners, and ſay the one to the other, in goyng to the tauerne: Let vs go drincke vpon the firſt ſkinne that will come.

Theophilus.

What meane they by that? A nevv prouerbe of the prieſtes. To drincke vpon the ſkinne to come.

Hillarius.

I do vnderſtand their prouerbe. But I am not much abaſhed, although you do not vnderſtād it, for it is not in the Chiliades of Eraſmus. They compare the poore people to the beaſtes, of whom they are the boutchers and flears, as they themſelues confeſſe by their prouerbe. And neuertheleſſe The butchery of the prieſtes. Euſebius is angry when we do name them by the names that they themſelues haue giuen them.

For what other thing doth their prouerbe ſignifie, but as the boutchers and flears haue the profite and gaine of the ſkinne and hyde of the beaſtes whom they flea: Euen ſo alſo haue they the profite of the dead bodyes of which they flea. I haue heard them my ſelfe, howe they reioyce, when they heare that there is any rich man ſicke and in daunger of death, and howe they ſaye let vs make good chéere: For we ſhall haue by and by héere a good ſkinne for ſhoes and for the tanne fatte. There is neither Tanner nor Cordwaytter Hydes for shoes Tanners and Shomakers of mens skinnes. ſo wealthy as thoſe are. For all the other knowe not to make their profit but of ye ſkinnes & hides of beaſts: But theſe héere do occupy the ſkinnes of men. And although that they be vnprofitable for any woorke, neuertheleſſe they doe make of them more gaine, then of any other, inſomuche that al the gaine that: ye Tanners do with their marroquino and vntanned hides, and the Cordwamers with their ſhoes, is nothing in compariſon of that whiche theſe doe get with their trade. The reproch of the cuntry man againſt ye prieſts

Thomas.

I aſſure thée that I doe know a man at Couppet which is beſides Geneun, who hath made this reproche vnto the Prieſts of the ſame place, and ſaid vnto them. Ye haue dronken vpon my ſkin, but you ſhal pay y ſhot if ye wil for mo: For I will not diſburſe any penny or farthing.

Hillarius.

Wherfore ſaid he that?

Thomas.

Bicauſe that The dead doth mocke ye prieſts. he was ſicke of long time, & during his ſickneſſe the Prieſts hoping that he would haue dyed in ſhort time, went to ye Tauerne to drinck vpon his ſkinne: But he deceiued them, & did not to them ye pleaſure they looked for: For he died not, but is yet aliue to this day.

Hillarius.

The dead hath then deceiued & mocked them as wel as the olde men who do ſpend all their goods vnder hope that they ſhall dye in ſhort time, & afterwards, as men ſay, were conſtrained to go beg at the gates & doores, deſiring to giue ſome almoſe vnto thoſe poore people whom death hath begiled. Theſe Prieſts haue as The complaynt of the Curate. great occaſion to complaine of him, as ye Curate had, who (as men ſaye) complained of his Pariſhoners, ſayinge: what would you haue me do my Pariſhioners? you will neither offer nor yet dye. Whereof do ye thincke that I can lyue? haue you determined ye I ſhould dye with hunger? doe you not thincke Euſebius, ye one may ſay the ſame of them that Seneca hath written of Aruncius and Aterius, and of other Seneca ſi. 6. de benef. Auruncius Aterius. Captatores teſtamentorum. Hunters & watchers after heritages and teſtaments. Libitina Libitinarij. Veſpillones. Marrons are thoſe vhich doe bury in ye time of the plague. like, who do make it an occupaciō & ſcience to purchaſe after heritages & to watch after teſtaments, ſaying that they haue the ſame deſire which the Marrons had, & thoſe who make it an occupacion to bury the dead bodies, & to furniſh & prepare that which is neceſſary for the burials & funerals. For the greater that the number of the dead bodies are, ſo much is the game the greater both of the one and the other. And therefore ſaith he: Thoſe ye do make it an occupatiō to bury the dead know not of whom they ought to deſire death: But theſe hunters & watchers after teſtaments & heritages, doe deſire yt their friēds & kinſmen ſhould die. If the Prieſts of ye Panims had bene like vnto our Prieſts, I doubt not but yt they would haue ioyned vnto thoſe héere. For they deſire as much the death of men, and more then thoſe, ſith that they make & do the occupation both of the one & the other. Wherfore when I heare them ſing their ſongs ſo pitiouſly and lamentable, about the dead, & their graues, me thincks that I Prouerbe. Flere adnouercae tumulum. The meanes to comforte the I Prieſtes. Minius. Haredis ſtatus ſub perſona liſus eſt. ſée children cry, as the prouerbe ſaith, at the burying of their ſtepmother. And yt they are like vnto the little children, who do wéepe & laugh all with one winde, & by and by are appeaſed, ſo ye when one gyueth them a péece of bread, or an apple, and that which they aſke for: Euen ſo we muſt appeaſe thoſe & giue thē money to comfort them. Afterwards as ſoone as they haue receiued it, behold them mapings & lamentations are ended, their ſorrow is tourned into ioy, & Requiem into Gaudeanius.

Theophilus,

This that you ſpeake ſéemeth to be ſowre & ſharp vnto Euſebius: But I am certeine that if he did read a little ye which S. Cyprian hath written againſt Cyprian. tract. 1. cont. Demet. Nec infirmes exhibetur miſericordia & defunctis auaritia inhiat acrapina, & appetuntur ſpolia mortuorum. The minſtrells at the burialls Siticines, Tibicines. the auarice & gréedineſſe of the Prieſts & Prelates, & of their rapine & theft towards the dead, in his booke againſt Demetrian, he ſhal finde the thing a little more ſwéeter and pleaſant.

Hillarius.

I do thincke ye they determine none other thing but to aboliſh all ye inſtitutiō of the true Church of Ieſus Chriſt, for to reduce & bring it to Iewiſhneſſe and Panimry. The auncient Panims haue accuſtomed to hire for ready money ſome minſtrel or many minſtrels after the eſtate of him that dyeth, who ſhall ſinge with their inſtruments many lamentable and pitifull ſongs, of the calamities & miſeries of the olde time, for to comfort the parents & friends of the dead, hearing of other mens miſfortunes, and letting them to vnderſtand thereby yt they were not alone. For as men do commonly ſay: The conſolation & comfort Alexadr. Appro in proble. of the miſerable is to haue compaignions. They do it alſo, to the end that thorow the harmony of ye inſtruments they ſhould be drawen away & féele leſſe dolour and griefe. The minſtrels then do accompany the pompe and funerall proceſſion, and play their notes before the dead body, ſounding their Trumpets, Flutes & Drumme for to moue the hearers Plato de leg. li. 12. to ſorrowe and lamentation. Sometime they do ſing of the praiſe of the dead, & according to the note that ye minſtrel doth ſound, & the affections that he giueth to his ſongs & inſtruments, the parents & friends of the dead do ſtrike their breaſts and begin to wéepe & lament, and not content with Lamenters that, but do hire ſome to lament & wéepe, for to helpe them to ſorrowe and wéepe and to ſinge the complaintes, and Threnodes. Tremniſtriae. Praeſicae. Biernoys Naeuius Alexandrians. chieflye women, bycauſe that they are by nature more pitifull and myleh harted to wéepe, as the Biernoys beſides Gaſcoyne and in Alexandria doe yet vſe vnto this daye, and doe ſo their office, that one woulde ſaye that the matter toucheth them. They haue alſo accuſtomed in many places to ſhaue their beard in token of ſorrow and mourning.

Thomas.

Whereto ſerueth all that for the dead? Haec quidem me hercle praefica ſi mortuum laudat. Coel. Rho. lec anti. 17. c. 22. Herod. Tranq. The honour devve vnto the dead. Gene. 3. d. 19. Vir. Aene. 11 Interea ſocios, in humalaque corpora terra. Mandamus qui ſolus honos. Acheronte ſub imo eſt. 1. Theſſa. 4. c. 13 The buriall of the Barbarians Herod. Ierom. in loui. lib. 2. Tertul. in Marcio. Fryer Genure. Lib. conſor. fol. 63.

Hillarius.

Whereto ſerueth for thē now all ye that ye Prieſts doe? What greater honour can we doe vnto them, then to bury them honeſtly in the earth, followinge the ſentence of God, which hath ſayd: Earth thou art and into earth thou ſhalt retourne againe.

Theophilus.

The true ſeruaunts of God, Patriarkes, Prophets, and Apoſtles, haue not much vſed any other Ceremonies, and we know not to followe a better rule and example then theirs, and the admonition which the Apoſtle doth giue vnto vs. He forbiddeth vs expreſly ye we ſhould not ſorrow for thoſe ye are fallen a ſléepe, as the Panims and Gentiles doe who haue no hope. The holy Apoſtle would not bringe vs to ſuch barberouſneſſe as hath bene ſometime vſed among the Panims, who did eate the dead bodies, or els did giue them to be deuoured & torne in péeces with dogs, birdes & fiſhes, without burying them: As many authours as well Panims as Chriſtians do witneſſe it of the Scithians, Indians, Bactrianians, Hircanians, Pontickes, & other ſuch like barberous people.

Hillarius.

I thincke the Fryer Geneure who is ſo much praiſed in the booke of the conformities of ſaint Fraunces, came from ſome of thoſe Nations. For among all the other meruailous vertues which are reported of him, this is one, that he cauſed ye Diuels to flée away ſeuen miles without euer retourning againe. It is writtē in the ſame booke, that he ſayd: I would to God that when I ſhall dye ther do procéed and come out frō my body ſuch a ſtincke, ye none dare to come néere it, & finally that men would caſt me out without burying of me, & that I might dye all alone, abhominably & that they would ſuffer mée to be deuoured of the dogs.

Theophilus.

Some haue accuſed the Lutherians for that they make none accompt of the dead bodies, bicauſe they condemne the ſuperſtitions of the Papiſtes: But I doe not thincke that euer any of them woulde ſpeake ſo vnhoneſtly, neither of his owne body, nor yet of any others. Yet Diogenes. Cic. Tuſ q. 1. Diogenes had more honeſty, how dogiſh ſoeuer ye hée was. For although ye he did not much take care for hys burying, yet he cōmaunded not that one ſhould giue his body to the dogs. It is true ye he did ſay, that hée had no great care how he ſhould be buried: For thoſe that ſhall haue the houſe will not ſuffer him to rot within it. And if they do caſt it out, at the leaſt let them caſt a ſtaffe after it for to defende and kéepe it from the dogges. I knowe not in what Theology this Fryer Geneure hath learned that honeſtie. For the Apoſtle ſpeaketh not after that ſort. Alſo I would not that we ſhould bée ſo ſuperſtitious in the burying as were the Grecians, Romaines, and other like people, who eſtéemed Grecians and Latynes. themſelues more humaine and honeſt, and that wée ſhoulde ſo lament and ſorrowe for the death of our parentes and friendes; as they dyd: as though we had no more hope and truſt of the reſurrection then they, and as though wée dyd thincke them altogether dead and loſt. And although that there was more greater moderation in this among the Iewiſh people, then among all the other, and that they dyd kéepe an •• der more agréeing to nature, yet neuertheleſſe the Apoſtle would that we ſhould be bolde and conſtaunt, foraſmuch as wée haue more certeine and ſure witneſſe of the reſurrection of the dead, and more greater and excellenter reuelation of the Goſpell, then this auncient people had: at the leaſtwiſe that we doe not worſe then they, but that we may witneſſe through our conſtancie and countenaunce the The ſorrovving for the dead faith that wée haue in Ieſus Chriſte, and our hope in hys reſurrection. The Apoſtle ſaith not ſimply: Sorrowe not for thoſe that are fallen a ſléepe, and bée not ſadde. For that ſhould be Stoique like, and of men he woulde make ſtones and blockes of woode, without any affection: But the doctrine of the Goſpell importeth not the ſame. For although What affectiōs the Goſpel doth permit. that the Goſpell of Ieſus Chriſt doth correct and mortefie the wicked affections of the fleſh, yet neuertheleſſe it depriueth nor ſpoileth man from all humaine affection, but amendeth onely that which is vicious, thorow the naturall corruption, procéeding from the ſinne of man. It is impoſſible that we can be wout dolour & ſorrow, although wée would, when we do ſée the afflictions and miſeries of our brethren, béeing of our fleſh and bloud, The holy Scripture hath not condemned the ſorrow and heauineſſe that Abraham conceiued Geneſ. 23. c. and Geneſ. 50. a. 1 Mat. 14. b. 11 Act. 8. 2. 21 Act, 11. 2. for the death of Sara his wife, & Iſaac of his mother, Ioſeph of his father Iacob: The Diſciples of S. Iohn, & of Ieſus Chriſt, & of ſ. Steuen, & of ſ. Iames, of ye teares ye they haue ſhed & of ye ſorrow that they made: For man cannot be man, without béeing moued to pittie and compaſſion, ſéeinge the calamities of others, & féeling the damage that he himſelfe receiueth. Therefore S. Paul ſpeaketh very ſharply, when 1. Theſſ. 4. c. 13 he ſayd, that the faithfull ſhoulde not bée ſorrowfull as the Panims and Infidels, who haue no hope of the reſurrection. Sith then that he condemneth the dooinges of the Panims, we ought not to kepe them, except we would be rather counted Panims then Chriſtians. It ought then to ſuffice vs to bury honeſtly the bodies of the dead, and to put them in the earth as in their bed, tarrying and lookinge for the comming of Ieſus Chriſt, and the generall reſurrection of all fleſhe. Therefore the Chriſtians doe call the place that is appointed for their buriall Cimiterium, bycauſe that it is as the bed, couch and dortoire of the faythfull that be The Churchyard & dortoyr dead. And therefore it is good to haue ſome certeine honeſt and comely place, as a common repoſitory of the Chriſtians, Thoſe do diſhonour god which do not bury honeſtly the dead. 1. Cor. 6. 1. 10 and publike witneſſe of the reſurrection of the fleſh. For we ſhould doe great wronge vnto our bodyes which are the temple of God, in whom God dwelleth, and which haue bene conſecrated and made holy through the bloude of Ieſus Chriſt vnto his honour and glory, and dedicated vnto the immortall inheritage of his kingdome, if wée doe caſt them to dogges, fowles and wilde beaſtes, as ſhe carryon of wilde and brute beaſtes, as though they ſhould liue no more after they were dead, and bée no pertaker of the immortalitie, no more then beaſtes. Their bodies ought to be more déere vnto vs, and more ioyned and knit vnto vs then their apparell, as Baſile witneſſeth. For that cauſe the Patriarches and true ſeruauntes of God Baſ. ſerui. 2. Mana. ca. 13 Geneſ. 23. d. 19 Geneſ. 25. 2. 7 Geneſ. 17. g. 19 Tho. 1. 2. 3 were praiſed, and namely Thoby, not for that they cauſed ſinging, praiers, & offering for the dead, and in ſpending their ſubſtaunce without neceſſitie vpon the dead: But bicauſe they haue deliuered them againe to the earth their mother Iob. 1. d. 22 from whom they came out: and that they haue ſo honoured them by their burying, without ſparing that which was neceſſary for the bodyes of the ſeruaunts of God, for whom he was glorified. And the Panims themſelues were greatly afraide to ſuffer thoſe to lye vnburied who haue liued Thoſe that doe kill themſelues are depriued of their buriall. Sopho. in Aiace fla. 24. d. 5. Si non lice. &c. Cum homo. & de poe. diſt. 3. c Iudas. honeſtly, and did not depriue but thoſe who thorow diſpaire did kill themſelues, as yet vnto this day it is ordained by the Canons. But the Panims oftentimes, doe but cut off the hand that committed the fact, iudgeing it vnworthy to be buried with the body, to whom it hath done violence. Alſo in ſome places they do puniſh with ſuch inſamy thoſe that commit ſacriledge, and that kill their fathers and mothers, and others that haue committed ſuch execrable crimes: notwithſtanding that the Hebrewes after that they had ſatiſfied to Iuſtice, buryed them, and would not ſuffer that the Ioſep. aut. li. 4. ca. 6. Eſa. 14. c. 19 Iere. 22. c. 19 The buryall of an Aſſe. buriall ſhould be denied not to the enimies, as Ioſephus witneſſeth: And the Lord by his Prophet declareth vnto ye tyrant of Babilon, that he ſhall haue no place to be buryed in: And threateneth Ioachim that he ſhall be buried among the Aſſes, bicauſe of his infidelitie and tyranny.

Hillarius.

The Panims had ſome appearaunce to doe that, & vſed not ſuch crueltie as our Prieſts, who for default of money do refuſe ye buriall, not onely vnto the olde folke, but alſo to ye little Infāts. And how many times doth it happen, yt they haue excōmunicated ſome poore labourer or buſbādmā, Excommunication for money. for twētie or thirtie ſoubs, yea, for thrée, & if he do die being ſo excōmunicated by thē, hauing not wherwith to pay, they haue denied him ye place to be buried with ye other chriſtiās: In c. ex parte de ſepult. Extra. de torne. ca. De peni diſt. 6. c. 1. 1. Theſſ. 4. a. 5 or els he muſt buy it déerly? And yet neuertheleſſe there Canons deny not that Churchyard, but to thoſe who are no Chriſtiās, or who do kill thēſelues: or to thoſe ye haue ben killed in doing ſome wicked acte, as adultry, larceny, murder, & Iewiſh playes. I am greatly abaſhed where they & we haue had ye vnderſtāding. S. Paul & Moſes do forbid vs expreſly, to be cōfirmable to ye imitatiōs of the Panims & Idolatrers, it that in diſpite of them wée haue not taken any other myrrour, nor haue ſtudied in any other thing. For what difference is there betwéene our funerals and buryals & theirs? The ringing of Belles. Haue not we the Bels in ſtéede of the Minſtrels that the Panims had? And euen as they had the Minſtrelles that were beſt allowed, according to the eſtate and condition of the perſons, ſo haue we the Bels, Prieſts & Monks. When The burying of the rich. there dyeth any Prince or noble man or rich man, that hath well wherewith to pay, they will bury him with the trumpet, with many torches, with great pomp & proceſſion, & with a great company of Minſtrels, and of men and women, for to ſinge, wéepe and lament about him, as it doth wel appeare by the diſcription that Virgile made of the burying and funerals of Pallas the ſonne of king Euander, ſayinge, that after that hée was knowen to be dead in the Citie, and that the Citizens dyd vnderſtand that men dyd bringe the body, and that it was already at hand, did as followeth.

Th'archadians moſt ſodeinly, vnto the gates then came, The buriall of Pallas. Vir. Aene. 11 Holding the torches funerals, already for the ſame. According to their olde faſhion, their guiſe and eke cuſtome, And euery one his torch did light, that ſerued in that rome. Marching ſo well before the herſe, by order on a row, That there vvas none among them all, out of order did ſhow. Giuing ſuch great a ſhining light, the vvay the vvhich they went, With the dead corps & pomp ſo great, vvhich to his graue him ſent. That all a farre and round about, the fieldes that are full faire, Did giue ſuch light and ſeruent heat, which flamed in the aire.

And in an other place ſpeaking of the wéepings & lamentations done ouer the dead, ſaith:

Euen to the heauens aſſended is, of men the dolefull cry, Vir. Aene. 11 And eke the ſound of the trumpets, lamenting pitiouſly:

And heſids all theſe things, the rich men were carried to the earth vpon a goodly Béere, with great magnificence and pomp, the which the Satyrical Poet hath compriſed in a few verſes, ſpeaking of thoſe which through their exceſſe, and for that they follow not the counſayle of the Phiſitian, and kéepe not good dyet doe kill themſelues ſaying.

With ſuch like train they march before, with trōpe & torches bright Perſius. Sa. 3. To guyde the rich man to his graue, a goodly gorgeous ſight. Who on a curious coffin lyes, & mourners beare his beere, And all his friends bewayle his death, with ſad & mourning cheere.

On the contrary parte, if there doe dye any poore man, The burial of the poore. or anye younge childe, or man of ſmall callynge, they doe bring him ſimply with a lyttle proceſſion, and a ſmall company, and the moſt times in the night, for the cauſes which already before haue bene touched, and they hadde but one lyttle Flute. Of which among others the Poet Statius doth witneſſe it wryting of Archanorus, after this manner.

But when poore men or children dye, their buriall is not braue. A lyttle Flute doth ſerue their tourne, to bring them to their graue. Statius.

Sith that we are fallen into the talke of the Flute, I Pli. ſi. 19. c. 43 The burial of a Rauen. doe remember an hiſtory that Plinie maketh mencion off, of a Rauen that was at Rome, who had learned to ſpeake, inſomuch that euery morning he went into the open ſtréets and ſaluted the Caeſars, to wytte Tiberius, Germanicus, & Druſius, by their proper names, and alſo the people of Rome: For which cauſe he was ſo wel beloued, that when he was dead, the people of Rome put him to deathe that had killed him, and made ſuch great ſorrow and lamentations, that they celebrated funeralls and pompes for him, ſo that he was carryed to the graue vppon a goodly beere, very trimly decked & adorned, the which two Aethiopians or black Moores did beare vpon their ſhoulders, wt a great number of garlāds & crowns of flowers, & a Fluter which played vpon the Flute before vntil they came to his graue.

Thomas.

Is it poſſible that the Romaynes, who haue ben ſo greatly eſtéemed thorow out the whole worlde, to haue bene ſo fooliſh?

Hillarius.

They witneſſe it themſelues by their owne hiſtoryes: and you muſt vnderſtand, bicauſe that the deade body was blacke, it was carryed by two Aethiopians or blacke Moores, as he was. But if they Blacke monkes. had had of lacopins, Auguſtines, or Moonkes of the order of Saint Bennet they had bene a great deale fitter for that office: and ſo ye Rauens ſhould haue carryed ye Rauen to the graue, and ſhould haue put him in the Paradiſe of the Rauens. And doubte not, that if the Rauens, Dogs, and Aſſes had wherewith to bury them, and that the Prieſtes might get ſo much money from them as they doe from the rich men, that they woulde ſpare them no more then they doe the rich, and would haue no more pittie and compaſſion of their ſoules, then of the ſoules of men. I doe meruayle of nothing but of this that the Romaynes vſed rather the Flute in thoſe funeralls of the Rauen, then the Trompette The burial of the poore. Vnde verſus. Dum moritur diues, concurrunt vndi que ciuet. Dum pauper moritur, vix vnus adeſſe videtur. ſith that in all the reſt he was buryed as ſolemly as the rich men be. And what doe our Prieſtes? If any great Uſurer be dead, they runne by and by to the great bell. There is not a Church nor pariſhe but that all the belles are walking, inſomuch that they make a greater noyſe then the Cyclopes doe with their Hammers and Mallets. I would counſell them to doe as the women of the Lacedemonians did when their king was dead, who did runne about the country ſounding and tinging of fire pannes, pots and baſins (as men doe after Bées when they ſwarme) for to declare the death of their king. After that the belles are Herod. once ſet in order a ringing, behold frō all quarters do come, Moonks, Prieſts, white, gray & blacke, ſmokid of al colours as Owles and Shrichowles, Rauens, Eagles, Wolues, and Dogges doe after carren, and they haue no néede to ſhaue themſelues, as the Panims doe, for to lament and be ſorrowfull. For they are already ſhauen of themſelues as the Prieſtes of the Babilonians, Aegyptians, and the Prieſtes of Iſis are: and are clothed wyth lynnen & white Barue. 6. d. 30. Ier. in Eze. 24 Herod. in Enterp. Plin. ſhirts as they are. They doe ſerue for all: In ſtéede of Minſtrells, ſingers, wéepers and lamenters. And euen as thoſe Panim Minſtrells did ſing pittifull and lamentable ſongs, and the euill fortunes of men, for to comfort the parents, euen ſo haue theſe our Prieſtes and Moonkes turned the booke of Iob into ſuche lamentacions and complaynts. The booke of Iob dedicated to the dead. Ex conc. Thol. 3. 23. q. 2. c Qui diuina.

Theophilus.

Neuertheleſſe it is concluded in the counſell of Tholet, that thoſe which are called of the Lorde from this worlde, ought to be carryed to their graue, onely with ſinging of Pſalmes, the rather to witneſſe and declare that they doe not ſo mourne and lament as the Panims doe, then for any other thing, and alſo to declare the hope of the reſurrection.

Hillarius.

There was more appearaunce, in that which the Idolaters did, for they did ſing in a language vnderſtanded of all men, & if the ſongs did not ſerue any thinge to the dead, yet at the leaſt they ſerued ſomewhat to thoſe that were alyue: But the roaring and bellowing of our Prieſts and Moonkes doe ſerue neyther for the one nor the other, but onely to accroche and gette to them money, and to cauſe it to come as the Birdes to the call: except peraduenture they woulde alleadge the reaſon of Macrobius which ſayth, ye men do accōpany the dead to the graue with Macrob. in ſom. Scipi. li. 2. ca. 3. ſinging, bicauſe ye panims beléeue after ye ye ſoules are ſeperated from y bodies, they doe follow that ſwéet harmony, & wyth the ſame goe vp to Heauen. For monye were of the opinion of Herophilus, Dicearchus, and Ariſtoxenus, Herophilus, Dicoarchus. Ariſtoxenus. Cic. Tuſc. li. 1. of whom Cicero maketh mention, who ſayd that the ſoule was not altogether nothing, or onely a harmony, the which taketh pleaſure with that pleaſaunt ſinginge and melody: and goeth wyth it: And God graunt that theſe héere doe beléeue the ſoules to be immortall, and that they may haue a better opinion then thoſe had. And alſo as touchinge the torches that the Panims carried, ther was ſome honeſt cauſe wherfore. For they carried them partly for to kindle Torches at the funeralls. The auncient cuſtome. woode that was prepared for to burne the dead bodyes withall, bicauſe that when they were come to the place appointed & ordained for the ſame, ye néereſt of kin did take one of thoſe torches, and kindeled the fire, as Virgile hath ſufficiently declared it, ſpeaking of the burying of Miſenus, after this manner:

In mourning ſort, ſome heaue on ſhoulders hye the mightie beere. Vir. Aene. 6. (A dolefull ſeruice ſad) as children doe their fathers deere. Behinde them holding bronds, thē flame vpriſing broad doth ſpred, And oyles and dayntyes caſt, and Frankenſens the fire doth ſeede,

Alſo in ſome places they haue néede of them, bycauſe that they doe bury them in the night, after the law of Demetrius The lavve of of Demetrius Phalareus. Cael. Rho. le. an. li. 17. ca. 20. Phalereus, who hath ſo ordayned it for to correct the ſuperſtuous pompe and pride of thoſe exequies and funeralls: which were too exceſſiue, inſomuch that many did beſtow great coſt about them, and afterwardes they themſelues wanted: as it happeneth dayly to many, who beſtow great treaſure vppon the dead, and do dye with hunger in their houſes: nor leaue wherewith to pay their owne debtes, nor thoſe of the deade, and doe keepe backe that which is due vnto the good people, for to giue it to the Prieſtes. Bicauſe of thoſe torches the Lateniſts doe call at this day the burialls Funus, bicauſe that they were made Funus Funeralia. The burialls of the Turkes. with cordes, the which they cal Funes, as they do call them yet now. But the Turkes haue a better order and of more appearaunce in that, then we. It is very true that they haue ſome things lyke to our ſuperſtlcions. For in the burying of the rich men and men of honour, their Prieſtes whome they call in their language Thalaſſanians, doe follow them a great number, according to the richneſſe and eſtate of the dead, ſinging often times this Song and Lctany: God is God, and ye true God, & Magman the Beſſenger of God. But they haue this goodneſſe, that they do cauſe the Binges and Princes to buylde for ſome of them Iemples, Foundations for the poore. for others Boſpitalls. for Sepulchers and graucs, the which they enrich with great reuenewes and rentes: not for to nurriſh the idle prieſts, but for to ſucecur the neceſſitie and no d of the poore and needy.

Euſebius.

All your matters are nothing but:ſul of mocking and ſlaunderinges. Doth not all payne and trauayle require a rewarde? Is it not good reaſon that the parents and friends, which haue the goodes of the dead, and become their heires, ſhould recompence the Pricſtes ſomewhat: Hath not Ieſus Chriſt ſayd that the Laborer is worthy of Lue. 10 b. 7. his rewarde? If the Prieſtes would doe that without taking any thing, the heires and friends ſhould make greate chéere with the goodes of the dead, and in the meane while the poore Prieſtes, which doe trauayle for them ſhould die of hunger: And ſo by that meanes one ſhoulde finde none that would doe. that office nor which woulde be a Prieſt.

Hillarius.

That ſhould be a great incenuenience and very euil for the Chriſtianitie, chiefely for the poore ſoules of Purgatory, who ſhoulde haue no more aduocates nor interceſſors betwéene God and the Uirgin Mary, for to delyuer them from thoſe paynes.

Theophilus.

I confeſſe that we muſt not mooſſell the Thoſe that are the true Miniſters are vvorthy of nurrishment. Deut. 25. a. 4. 1. Cor. 9. b 9. 1. Timoth. 5. c. 18 mouth, of the Oxe that treadeth out the corne, and it is alſo good reaſon that he that ſerueth the Goſpell, ſhoulde lyue of the Goſpell: But what trauayle doe thoſe héere take: what ſeruices doe they, eyther to the quicke or to the dead?

Hillarius.

To eate vp and deuoure their goodes and ſubſtaunce.

Theophilus.

That which you haue alleadged is againſt your ſelfe. For when Ieſus Chriſt ſayth that the workeman Mat. 10. b. 10. is worthy to haue his meate, he ſpeaketh of the Miniſters of the Goſpell, and not of Minſtrells. He hath not commaunded the Chriſtians to féede and giue meate to Minſtrells for to haue them ſounde in their eares: but Miniſters for to preach ye goſpel to them. He letteth vs to vnderſtande that we muſt worke and trauayle in the Miniſterie of the Goſpell, by that that he ſayth the workeman, not the idle and ſlougthfull. Afterwardes he declareth that he would not haue the Miniſters of his Church couetous, 1. Timoth. 3. a. 3 l itus. l. b. 7. 1. Pet. 5. a. 2. nor giuen to filthy lucre nor inſatiable, when he declareth that the meate is due to the Paſtours of the Goſpell, but ought to content them ſelues, as the holy Apoſtle to be cloto c , nouriſhed and kept according to their eſtate and condition: whithout ſuper fluity, which may cauſe them to for get God, and without to great neede, which maye hinder them to exerciſe their office: But theſe here do neuer ceaſe to a •• e and to catch, & yet they do no workes that ſerue for ye health of men It wine a great deale better ye they would The ligrification of heales Durant in Ra dui. off li 1. Rub. de camp. ſhew forth ineffect ye which they ſaye their belles do ſignifie, then to haue beiles for to repreſent it. They do interpret that the ſound of their belles doth ſignifie the ſound of the word of God, the which they ought to preach vnto the people and that the belles do ſignifie the prophets and miniſters of the goſpell, who ought to ſounde in the Church of God: But they do leaue all the charge vnto the belles, and will not uiedle with it. Haue they not well prouided for the chriſtian people, good preachers?

Hillarias,

You do not vnderſtand their practiſe. They are wyſer then you thincke. Mee thinckes that men The bellsand Images the Prieſts Vicars cannot complaine of them, as touching the office of preaching; for they haue ſo well prouided, that one cannot rebuke them. It is verie true, that they do not preache: But they haue ſo many the more vicars to ſupply their office. Haue: they not the Churches full of Images? For you Grego. ad Sere. Epiſe. Maſsil. par. 10. Epiſt. 4. know that their Images are lay mens and ſooles bookes, as they tell vs. But I know not what bookes they are, nor on which ſide they muſt take them to open and read in them, or whether we muſt begin at the beginning, as y Oreekes, Latined, Frenchmen, and others like: or at the end, and ſo go backward, & cleane cōtrary to others, as the Hebrewes and Caldes do. Wee haue aſſayed them, and haue taken very ſharpe Batchettes and Ares, for to open the leaues, which are ſo ſaſte ſtirched and glewed together, that it is impoſſible to open and ſeparate them a ſunder, except we do hew and cut them in peeces. Wee haue looked beefore and behinde: towardes the head and the feete, the belly and the backe, but we could neuer ſoe any letter, neither to knowe whether they were written in Greeke, Hebrew or Latine, nor yet in what language. To conclude, we find nothing there, but Mice, Pytch, Spiders, and ſuch filthyueſſe. But if they be the lay mennes books, whereto ſerueth then for them preachers, haue they not found them ready at hand and the moſt fytte as is poſſible to finde? Firſt of all they coulde not haue founde them more fitter for them. For they doe neyther eate nor drinck, nor their meate and fire coſteth them any thing. But which is more, they nurriſhe and keepe them aboute them, and do well declare, that they are not vicars without cauſe. For the offrings that they receiue, they make a good accompt, and do pay a great reuenewe to their Curate and Byſhop. Du the other ſide, ſhould not the people haue great wronge to complaine? For they are gracyous preaches. They neuer rebuke any man, but let euery one doe as he liſſe. If the prophets, Apoſtles and miniſters of the Goſpell were ſuch pleaſant preachers, they ſhould not be ſo much hated, nor euill entreated of men, but men would offer vnto them candels, and hyſſe their f •• t, s they do thoſe But thore is a great fault in them, for the which we muſt prouide. For not withſtangding that they haue, goodly Os habent & non loguentur: oculoshabent et non videbūs: manut halent & non palpebunt, pedes habent & non ambulabunt, et non clamabunt in guttere ſuo. 1. Cor. 14. b. 9. Act. 2. b. 7 mouthes, yet neuertheleſſe they ſpeake not, becauſe they haue no voyce. Wherfore they haue the belles for are compence, which haue the voyes for to ſpeake in ſtende of them although that they haue lſo mouthes: But the Images haue the countenaucos and do furniſh the mouth & the belles the voyce, for to fulfill that which is written: except ye ſpeake wordes that haue ſignification, howe ſhall it bee vnderſtanded what is ſpoken? For you ſhall but ſpeake in the ayre, and as a tinckling ſimball, and there is yet another ſecret, whiche euery one vnderſtandeth not. All thoſe that did heare the Apoſtles in Hieruſalem vpon the day of Pentecoſt, were cſſonyed, bicauſe that not withſtanding they were Galieans, yet neuertheleſſe all of what language ſoeuer they were of, did vnderſtand them ſpeak as if it had ben their owne & natiue tongue & comon to al the he arers. Now •• aſmuch as ye els are the Popes & Prieſts Apoſtls, all of them bicauſe that they haue not that gifte of God, would counterfayte that miracle by their belles. For they doe The belles doe ſpeake all languages. ſpeake all languages, and ſuch as it pleaſeth the hearers. And what ſounde ſoeuer they haue, they ſpeake that which the hearer hath in his fantaſie, as euery one may knowe by experience, and I my ſelfe can witneſſe the ſame. For when I was a young childe, and that I did heare the bells towle as I went to ſchoole, I did thincke that they ſayde ſometimes that which ſome had put in my heade: Loſt labour, thou ſhalt be beate: and I was alwayes afrayd that they had ſayd true. Euen ſo it happened vnto a widow who The vvidovve aſked counſel of the belles. deſired much to marry, but ſhe was aſhamed to tell it, therfore he ſent hir to the belles whome ſhe aſked counſayle, knowing well hir affection, and that ſhe would doe but that which was in hir fantaſie, whatſoeuer counſayle one gaue vnto hir. When it was appoynted that ſhe ſhould heare the counſayle that the bells gaue vnto hir, ſhe thought that they ſayd vnto hir: Marry thée: afterwards when ſhe was marryed, and that hir huſbande which was verye iealous had well beaten hir for goyng or gaddinge abroade many times, and had well druſed hir bones, ſéeing that that feaſt ſhould alwayes laſt, ſhe rebuked him that did giue hir that counſayle: and ſayd vnto him: My friende you haue not well vnderſtanded the bells: Goe preſently and giue good eare; and you ſhall ſée if they ſaye not the contrary: the which ſo happened. For bicauſe that hir fantaſie was paſt ſhe did thincke that the belles ſayd: Marry not. Wherefore I conclude that I haue ſufficiently proued mine intention, and that the Prieſtes haue very well prouided for vs Preachers, and ſuch as appertayne vnto vs: of whom we ought to content our ſelues. For fooles woulde alwayes that one ſhould counſell them after their owne fantaſie. And bicauſe that we are fooles, we deſire ſuch Preachers which ſpeake after our owne fantaſie. But we cannot better finde them but at the belles.

Theophilus.

It was commaunded in the lawe, that when the highe Biſhop entred into the Sanctuary, that he was clothed with a gowne of Iacinte, which had Bels & Pomgranards hanging at ye The Pomegranards and belles that did hang vpon the veſtmēt of the high Prieſt. Exo. 28. e. 34. hems. By which things I cannot vnderſtand, but ye by the Pomgranardes which are of a ſwéete ſauour, the Lorde would figure Ieſus Chriſt, who hath bene to him a ſacrifice of a ſwéet ſauour: And admoniſheth all the true paſtors of his Church, to be by their holy life & conuerſation, a ſwéet ſauour of the Goſpel vnto the poore and ſimple people, as S. Paul ſayth, that he hath bene. By the Belles, that the high Prieſt ought to be heard when he entreth into ye ſanctuary, nor I doubt not but that alſo hée hath figured the preaching of the Goſpell, by the which Ieſus Chriſt and his Apoſtles haue awakened all the worlde: and after theire Ori. in Exo. 28 e. 34. example all the good ſhepheards of the Church and flock of Chriſt ought to doe, as Origine doth expounde it, ſayinge: That the high prieſt ſhould alſo haue round Bels about his beſtment, ye he entring into the Sanctuary, ſhould be heard, and that he ſhould not enter with ſilence. And thoſe Bels which ought alwayes to ſounde, are put in the hemme of the beſtment, and that is to that ends that thou ſhouldeſt neuer holde thy peace vntill the ende of the worlde, but that alwayes thou bée hearde thereby, that thou doe diſpute, and ſpeake, as hée which ſayth: Remember the ende or the latter thinges, and thou ſhalt not ſinne. Beholde the expoſition of Origine, the which I would gladlye they woulde followe, and that they woulde conſider that ſith that the time of ceremonies is paſt, we haue no more néede of their Belles, for to figure vnto vs that which hath bene figured of the high Prieſt: But ye in ſtéede of the figure & ſhadow, they would giue vnto vs the veritie of the thinges figured, after the example of Ieſus Chriſt, and of his Apoſtles: or if they will yet kéepe and holde vs in ſhadowes and figures, it is better for thē to follow thoſe of Moſes, then to inuent & make for vs new, as they do. For they cannot finde better, nor more proper: If they doe ring or towle theyre Belles, for to call the people together to the Churche, for to preach vnto them the woord of God: or when any man is dead, for to admoniſh euery one of mans infirmitie & weakneſſe, & to preach onto them the iudgment of God. & to teach euery one how he ought to prepare himſelfe to dye, and to confirme & ſtrengthen them in the hope of the reſurrection, declaring vnto them that the bloude of Ieſus Chriſt is the true Purgatory of the ſoules, and that there is none other, their ringing and ſinging would haue a little more appearance, and ſhould be more conformable to the auncient Church: But they do it altogether for none other ende but to induce and leade the people to ſuperſtition, and for to ſtrengthen them in their opinion of purgatory, making thē Durant in Radiui. off. li. 1. Rub. de camp. & 4. li Rub. de ac. pont. ad alt. The, bells to driue away diuels. The banner & the croſſe. to pray for the dead, without any word of God. But do they not yet alledge an other goodly reaſon, ſayinge: that they doe ring their Bels in their proceſſions, funerals, and at other times, to that ende to make the diuels afraide, and to compell them to flée: For they ſay that thoſe are the trumpets of the Church militant, of which the Dyuell hath as great feare, as a tyrant hath whē he heareth that one giueth him the Larame, and as the ſounde of the Trumpets and Drummes of a puiſſaunt King or Prince, which is his enemy, and come for to diſcomfort him: For that cauſe ſay they, doe they carry the banner and the croſſe, and that they cauſe the Bells to bée ronge and towled for the tempeſts, and alſo for to admoniſh the people to pray vnto God: But it were a great deale better that they would make ſuche admonitions Ephe. 6. c. 10 by the preaching of the Goſpell, and that they woulde arme the people with the buckler of faith, & weapon them with the ſwoord of the ſpirite, which is the woord of God, for to defend them againſt the Diuell, & to driue him away. For theſe are the true weapons, which the Diuell feareth, and which S. Paul giueth to the Chriſtian knight.

Hillarius.

If that little children, or any olde dreamers and fooles had held ye opinion, one could not but laugh: But is it not great ſhame that ſuch men who would be eſtéemed and counted the pyllers of the fayth, would forge and inuent ſuch a Theology? But haue they not good leaſure to baptize the Belles? Is The baptiſing of bells. not that to mooke and ſcoffe with Ieſus Chriſte and hys baptiſme, to baptize Braſſe and inſenſible mettalles? The aduenturers or vagabondes whiche baptized a Calfe, and called him a pyke for to eate him in Lente in ſtéede of a fiſhe, hadde not they more cauſe to doe for I doe, iudge that they thincke that one can driue awaye the Dyuelles as they doe the byrdes from the vanes. If the Dyuelles were lyke vnto the Bées, they woulde ſtaye them rather: And I doe feare that it happeneth ſo well vnto them. For as farre as we can perceiue by their workes, there is not a people that hath ſo manye Dyuelles aboute them. But you haue lette Durant. in diui. off. ſi. 1. Rub de camp. out the beſte, that is, they ſaye that at the ſolempne feaſtes wée muſte ringe muche, and a longe time for to awaken the drunckardes, and thoſe that ſléepe. But will you haue mée tell you the true interpretation of The true ſignification of the belles. their Bels? Conſider the forme & faſhion of a Bell. It hath a little head, but it hath the greater belly. Wherefore I cannot vnderſtand, according to the Morrall, Allegoricall or Anagogicall ſence, but that they doo ſignifie that they are no other thing but fatte and ſlouthfull bellyes, and that they Slouthfull bellyes. paſſe not on the head, but onely on the belly. And euen as they are but bellies, they doe alſo very well knowe that other men doe loue more the belly then the head, & notwithſtanding that all haue a goodly belly, and loue it well, there are but a fewe which care much for the head, the brayne, wit and vnderſtanding, nor which take any thought to haue it. Wherefore I beléeue that they haue determined ſo much to ringe theire Belles, that they maye breake altogether the heade of thoſe whiche haue yet a verye lyttle, to that ende, that neyther wytte nor vnderſtandinge myght abyde in them. In ſuche ſorte that wée maye well make it a Prouerbe, as well as the auncientes haue made it of the Baſinnes, Caudrons and Belles of Dodonaeus. Beholde the trueſt expoſition friende Dodonaeum asdodonaes lebetes Zenodot. ex Ariſtoph. Euſebius that I can at this time gyue vnto thée: And thincke not that thou canſt gyue vnto mée a better nor more proper: excepte peraduenture thou wylte ſaye, that they dooe the ſame after the immitation of the Gallots, Curets, and Corybants, Prieſtes of the Goddeſſe The Prieſts cl Cyble. Cyble the mother of Gods, whome they doe carrye vppon their ſhoulders in their proceſſions, ſounding of Cymballes, Herodot. Diodor. Drummes, Belles, and other ſuch inſtrumentes, which doe make a great noyſe, wyth the crye and ſound of their Letanyes, which they goe ſinginge after: as manye Apule. de Aſini li. 11. Lactan. lib. ca. 21. The feaſt and proceſſion of Cible. auncient Authours doe witneſſe, as well Panims as Chriſtians, namely Lactantius which alledgeth ſome verſes of Ouid, who among others, in a few woordes ſpeaking of hir feaſt, comprehendeth all theſe things, ſaying:

Then foorthwith ſhalbe heard the home, Ouid Faſt. 4. of Berecynthia blow, Of Cyble graundame of the Gods, thapproching feaſt to ſhow. And Eunuches playing vpon Drums, whoſe noiſe the aire doth fill, And ringing out the braying blaſt, of Trumpet ſounding ſhrill. She on their ſhoulders ſitting ſoft, is borne about the Towne, By Prieſtes and ſeruaunts of hir owne, with noiſe and ſhriching ſowne.

Epiphanius that good and learned Byſhop and of great eſtimation among the auncients, did write a booke, that hée Epiphanius. made of hereſies, ſaying, that ther were in his time, ſome women of Siria who did begin to carry in that ſort the Image of the Virgin Mary and offered vnto it oblations: But hée Idolatry of the image of our Lady. ſaith that the ſame ſuperſtition and Idolatry was repreſſed and beaten downe through the diligence of good Biſhops & paſtors, knowing that the ſame was none other thing, but an imitation of the furor and madneſſe of the Panims.

Wherefore Epiphanius, numbreth that errour in the Roule of the hereſies that hée hath made. And yet neuertheleſſe our Prieſts haue not ceaſed therefore to put it foorth, and more greater Idolatry then euer was among the Prieſts of Cyble and Iſis, after whoſe example they doe carrye their Idolls, Relicks, Hearſes and Shrines, and for to declare that they are their ſucceſſours, they haue theire heads ſhauen, & their ſurples: & many other ornaments of lynnen and white cloth, as thoſe had, as the Poet ſayth:

Attending on the goddeſſe then, the crue both great and ſmall, Ouid. Are clad in lynnen garments whyte, to honour hir vvithall.

And agayne he ſayth.

Theſe ſhauen Prieſts in white arayd, enſued the Goddeſſe grace, And making noyſe with ſound of Droms, did follow hir a pace.

Foraſmuch then as it is thought that they make Diuells afrayde, and driue them away by the ſounde of the belles, thoſe there then oughte to make them tremble and quake. Wherefore I thinke that foraſmuch as our Prieſtes doe ſay that their belles are the Trompettes of the great King, and that their ſtreamers that they carry in their Proceſſions, are his Enſeigns and Banners, they ought alſo to carry and ſound Drommes and Trumpets, for to make it better appeare vnto the Diuell, that they wil ioyne a ſtrong battaile with him, & that they come not with falſe Enſeignes, & that their quarrell is not the ſport and play of lyttle children, and that they will not ſuffer Iuuena. Ft ingēs ſemiturobſcoeno ſacies reuerenda minori. Mollia qui capta ſecuit genitalia testa. Diſt. 36. ca. 1l. literatos Diſt. 55. ca. ſi. quis To ring for the time. the auncient cuſtome of their olde aunceſtours and predeceſſours to bée abolyſhed whome we haue of late named, from whome they doe not much differ as touchinge their Ceremonyes: But the moſt greate difference that I can finde, is, that theſe héere are not ſo chaſt as the others are, bicauſe they are not gelded as they are. For that ſhould be agaynſt their orders and Canons, and manye women would be barren, if we had not ſuch Saintes for to make them beare children. And as touching that that they doe ring their belles agaynſt the time of thunderinges, lyghtenings and tempeſts, and that they doe coniure them, they cannot deny but in the ſame they do follow the Panims, who had their exorciſmes, coniuratione, ringinges and other manner of doings agaynſt them, which did not much differ from thoſe of theſe héere. It is very true that the Ariſioph. in Veſp. Quod ſi fulguraro popiſſant. Panims had not ſuch belles, bicauſe they were not then vſed as they are now: But in ſteade of them they clapped their hands the one agaynſt an other for to make an noyſe, & made a noyſe with their mouthes, for to appeaſe Piin. li. 28. c. 2. Fulgura popiſi nis adorare cō ſenſus gentium eſt. Holy vvoode. Remedyes againſt ye lyghtning. The Baye tree. The ſea Calues The Eagle. Plin. li, 2. c. 55 and quallyfie the thundrings and lyghtenings, after the manner as men doe clap their horſes and make much of them, thinking that the ſame would ſerue in ſteade of a remedy, that the lyghtening ſhould not ſtrike them. Some did carry of the Baye trée, in ſtéede whereof we did carry woode, leaues and boughes and braunches of trées that had ben halowed vpon Palme Sunday, & of Eaſter flowers, or the ſkinnes of Sea Calues, bicauſe that among all the Sea beaſtes, men ſaye that lyghteninge will not touch the ſea Calfe, nor the Eagle among the ſoules.

Thomas.

And for what ſerued the Baye trée?

Hillarius.

They had this opinion, that lyghtning would neuer fall vppon it, nor could ſtrike it, as almoſt all thoſe ye haue written of his propertie & nature doe witneſſe it. They had alſo the arte and manner to coniure the tempeſts, To coniure the time Iupiter. Elicius. Ouid. Faſt. 3. Numa Pompilius. and to make the God Iupiter come from heauen, for to adiure them and driue them away: the which they had learned and receiued of Numa Pompilius the ſecond king of the Romaynes.

Theophilus.

I doe not finde in the Scripture that the people of God euer vſed ſuch ſorceries & coniurings, nor ye they euer had any recourſe to candels, holy water, holy wood, ye bay trée, to the bells nor to ye coniurations, for to driue away ye lyghtnings & tempeſt. For yt Tibullus. Hane ego ducentem de coelo ſydera vidi: Fluminis haec rapidi carmine vertutur. Quum libet haec triſts do el lit nubila culo. appertayneth better vnto the Magicians, Sorcerers, & Enchaūtors, who do attribute vnto themſelues the power to moue ye heauen and earth, to moue & ſtir vp ye lyghtnings & tempeſts, & to appeaſe them, & to plucke ye Moone and the Stars from heauen. But the true ſeruaunts of God, in all daungers & perils, or if ye heauē hath ben ſhut vp, ſo yt it giueth no rayne: or if it ſendeth hayles, thūders & tempeſts: or it famine, plague, or drought haue bene on the earthe: Quum libet aeſtiuo prouocat orbe niuer if the corne haue bene deſtroyed, or the Locuſts & Caterpillers haue deſtroyed the goodes of the earth: or if they haue bene afflicted with any other kinde of plague or malady, they vſe none other remedy but to tourne themſelues to God only with prayers, with true repentaunce of the ſinnes and amendment of lyfe. And ye Lord hath alwaies heard them, according to the requeſt ye Salomon made vnto 3. Reg. 8. a. 1 2. Cro. 5. a. 1 him, when he dedicated to him his Temple.

Hillarius.

They make me to remember thoſe mockers and diſpiſers of God, which were among the Panims, who did clappe their féet together agaynſt ye thunders & tempeſts, & for to Oppedere contra tonitiua. Salmoneut. Virg. Aeneid. 6 Vidi & crudelem dantem. Salmonia penas Dum ſlammas louis & ſouitus imitutur Olympi. The minſtrels airus. Mat. 9 c 18. Mar. 5. c. 12 Luc. 8. f 41 ſhew themſelues more wicked, did open their bellyes againſt them, in mocking & ſcoffing it: Of which theſe prouerbs do yet continue. Euen ſo it ſéemeth ye thoſe woulde mocke God, & counterfet theſe thunders as Salmoneus did.

Euſebius

You can declare and ſet forth vnto me nothinge but the Panims. But wherefore doe you not alleadge vnto me aſwell ye minſtrells, and the ſingings, which y Iſraelites, that were ye people of God, vſed in their burialls? As it appeared by thoſe which were in y houſe of Iairus the chiefe ruler of ye Sinagoue when his daughter was dead, whom Ieſus rayſed to lyfe agayn, & yet he rebuked not the miniſtrells: the which he would not haue omitted if he had iudged the ſame to be euil. Wherefore may we not haue aſwell bells & Prieſtes for to ſing, as thoſe had The Prieſts Minſtrels. minſtrels, for to incite & prouoke them to lamentacions & compaſſion vpon the dead, & to pray to God for them with a better courage?

Theophilus.

You come to the ende of my matter, & by that compt the Prieſts doe ſerue vs in ſtéede of minſtrels. But it is to be feared that Ieſus will driue them out of his Church, as he auoyded out thoſe of Iairus out of the chamber and houſe. For he will not haue Prieſts for the dead, nor he ſent his Apoſtles and Diſciples, but for thoſe that be alyue. For ye true Euangelical Prieſts & Miniſters of the Church, ought to be lyke vnto the Phiſitians, who are alwayes aſſiſtaunt vnto men aſmuch as they can, and A compariſoa of tue true Prieſtes and Phin ous. help and ſuccour them aſmuch as is poſſible during their lyfe for to kéepe them in healthe, or to heale them when they are ſicke, but after that they be dead, they haue no more to doe. For they cannot ayde nor helpe them any more, therefore they doe to them no more afterwards. But our Prieſtes are Phiſitians, who ſuffer their Patients to dye, without helping them, after they will bring vnto them medicines when they are dead: But Ieſus Chriſt would haue no ſuch: as he hath giuen vs to vnderſtande by the aunſwere that he made to one of his diſciples, which aſked him leaue to goe and bury his father, ſaying: Suffer the Mat. 6. c. 12. It vvas forbidden the Prieſtes to be aſſiſtaunt at the buriall of the dead. Leuit. 21. 2. 1. dead to bury their dead. But what appearaunce is there, that Ieſus Chriſt would occupy ye Miniſters of his church, and the true Cuangelycall Prieſtes about the dead, ſith that God woulde not onely ſuffer that the high Prieſte of the lawe, and the other Prieſtes ſhould goe to the burials nor that they ſhould come nye any dead bodyes, except they were their fathers or mothers, or any of their nigh kinſmenne? The which thing he pernutted not to the highe Prieſt. The chaunce ſhould be much chaunged, and the Goſpell ſhould haue made vs Prieſtes very contrary and differing much from thoſe of the people of God. For wée doe not reade that euer they medled with the deade, nor that they prayed nor offred ſacrifices for thē, notwithſtanding ye they were vnder the ſhadows & figures of the law, and in the time of the ſacrifices, which now thorow Ieſus Chriſt are abolyſhed. And our Prieſts doe ſerne vs alwayes for none other thinge, but to bóe letted about the dead.

Hillarius.

It were a great deale better to hire the minſtrells and lamenters as the auncients dyd, then to nurriſh and féede ſo many fat bellyes, with ſo great dayntyes, and coſts. For we ſhould pay them no mony but when we do ſet them to worke, and they will ſerue vs aſmuch as thoſe our Prieſtes, whome we muſt kéepe all the yeare longe, with great coſtes, charges and expeuces. I doubt not but that Moſes did well foreſee that. Therefore hath he thorow the ſpirite of God forbidden, that the Prieſtes ſhould not be preſent at the burials. I had rather that they would doe as the Aegyptians did, who did put the body of their Diodorus The cuſtome of the Aegyptians. king, when he was dead, before the entring in of the graue or ſepulcher, afterwardes did reade a lyſtle booke contayning his actes, and that which the king had done during his lyfe. And he that would might diſprayſe them. The Prieſts were there preſent, who did examine an iudge of all the poynts. The people alſo were there preſent, and did clap their hands and reioyce at the praiſes of the king, and did vituperate and diſprayſe the vyces. The ſame gaue a certeyne feare vnto the kinges and Princes that they ſhould not abuſe their office, and did admoniſh them to be vertuous if they would haue prayſe of men. for it did chaunce ſome times, that the king lyued ſo wickedly and deteſtable, that they did iudge him vnworthy to be buryed. The lyke did they of other men. In lyke manner the Greekes and Latines had a cuſtome to prayſe the bertuous The Grekes & Latines Panegyres Orationer fune bres. A cuſtome to praiſe the deade men after their death, & to make Drations in their prayſe, aſwell for the conſolation and comforte of their parents, as for to incitate and moue others vnto vertue, by theire examples. For that cauſe they doe rehearſe their proweſſes, their vertues and valyauntneſſe. And to make an honeſt mention at ſometime for to encourage others to bée vertuous. Thucidides witneſſeth, that ye cuſtome to praiſe the dead did begin among the Greekes by Pericles, who Pericles. was the firſt that openly made an oration in the prayſe of thoſe which were dead in the warre of Peloponenſe. Alſo among the Romaines, Valerius Publicola was the firſt, Valerius Public la. which after that manner prayſed his companion Brutus, as witneſſeth Titus Liuius. Afterwards that cuſtome hath continued among the Gentiles & Idolaters, If our Prieſts would ſerue vs in that ſtead, the thing would be more tollerable: although ye we haue the word of God ſufficient inough for to merte & moue vs vnto vertue & honeſtie: But they ſerue vs to none other ende but to eaſe, and the greateſt thoeues and vſurers, are thoſe vnto whom they doe the greateſt honours, and giue the greateſt prayſes, and doe bury them with greateſt magnificence. But if any poore man doe bye, that hath not readye money, ſcant and with muche a doe ſhall hee haue one Prieſt ſor to beare him companye, nor one ſcant to ringe the lyttle bell.

Theophilus.

There is no doubt but ye the auncient Chriſtians, bicauſe ye ſome were come of the Iewes, & ſome of y panims, haue yet hept many of the manners and cuſtomes that they vſed in their countryes, the which yet neuertheleſſe they haue chaunged into a better vſe. For the Iewes and Panims had many things, which of thē ſelues might be tollerable, and to ſerue to ſome kinde of honeſtie and cluilitie, if the ſuperſticion and the fooliſh opinions had bene taken away. In the auncient Churche Commemoratiō of the dead. when that any faythfull man was dead béeing conſtant in the fayth of Ieſus Chriſt, and that he made a goodly confeſſion in his death, they vſed to make a commemoration to the congregation, for to incite and ſtirre vp others to ſuch faithe and conſtantneſſe, and chiefely when he hath bene killed by the Tyrants, and that he hath bene the true Commemoratiō of y Martirs martir of Ieſus Chriſt, & in the mids of his torments hath conſtantlye confeſſed the truthe, and hath witneſſed it by his death, and ſealed it by his bloude. For that cauſe the Notaries and pronotaries. Plati. in vit. Clem Ant he. lul. & Fabi. Notaryes and Protonotaryes were conſtituted and appoynted, who were charged to write truely and after the truth the Eccleſiaſticull hiſtoryes, the lyues and dooings of the holy Martirs, & true ſeruaunts of God, for the edification of the Church and congregation: for at certein times they made commemoration vnto the Congregation of the fayth and conſtantneſſe of the Martirs, for to comforte and for teſie the poore faythfull in the middes of the perſecutions that they ſuffered for Ieſus Chriſt, to the ende that after the example of the Martirs, they ſhoulde prepare themſelues rather to dye valyantly for the witneſſe of the truth, then to renounce and forſake it. And the Dration and Sermon that Saint Ambroſe made for Ambroſe and Theodoſius. the Emperour Theodoſius after that he was dead, tended to none other ende. And when the good auncient byſhops prayſed after that ſorte the good ſeruants of God, that had faithfully trauailed in his worke & vyneyard, they did go about no other thing by that meanes, but to edifie the congregation with good examples, euen as the holy prophets and Apoſtles haue deſcribed vnto vs ye holy ſcriptures, the liues and actes of holy men, which haue bene called of God, for to inſtruct and teach vs by their example. This manner of doing was not altogether to be deſpiſed, and it might be practiſed to ediflcation, if ſathan the enemie vnto all goodneſſe had not altogether conuerted and turned it into ſuperſtition, Idolatry, and blaſphemie, as wee ſee and proue it dayely. For from thoſe beginninges the Prothonotaries are deſcended, whome wée haue yet at this preſent time, who keepe onelye the name Prot honotaries of name. without exerciſing the office. For to what ende doe they ſerue vs?

Hillatius.

To hunt after and ſo laye wayte for benefyces. What woulde you they ſhoulde doe, woulde you haue them to wrytte and regiſter the lyues of our Popes, Cardinals, Byſhoppes, Prieſts and Moonkes? They will leaue the charge of that The legend of the Papiſts. vnto the Lutheriaus, whiche are their protonotaries, for to deſcribe and paint out the legend of ſuch ſaints and Martyrs of Venus, rather then of Ieſus Chriſte. For theyr lyfe and conuerſation is ſo holy, that they had rather that men woulde neuer ſpeake of it, and that the remembraunce thereoff ſhoulde bée altogether defaced and forgotten. Yet I thincke that they rendered no greate thanckes vnto Platine who hathe wrytten ſo muche, althoughe that he tourned the ſayeſt ſide outwardes as Platins nigh as hée coulde.

Theophilus.

Thys is yet the leaſte faulte of the Prothonotaries: But from that ſame fountayne is riſen and ſprong vp the errour of inuocation of Saints, The errour touching the honour & inuocation of ſaints of feaſts, wanderings, bleſſings, relycks, pilgrimages, and all other Idolatry and ſuperſticions, which men do commit dayly about the Saints. For wheras in the auncient Church men did but onely make mention of the lyfe, faith and conſtantneſſe of the Martirs and Saynts when the people aſſembled themſelues in the Eccleſiaſticall aſſemblyes, without inuocating or praying to the Saynts, but onely vnto God: Afterwards in proceſſe of time, the ſuperſticious and Idolatrous Chriſtians, haue made of the Saynts Gods, and haue dedicated to them, Feaſts, Temples, Aultars and Chappells. And haue begonne to ſing Canenization Herodia. Himnes and ſuperſticious ſongs in their honour & prayſe, after the ſame manner as the Panims and Idolaters did to their Binges and Emperours, when they Ca onized them. And are not content to preach their lyues and Legende, as the auncients did: but haue added vnto it fables and lyes. and haue made to them Maſſes, in ſuch ſort, that Maſſes of ſaints for one ſupper of Ieſus Chriſt, we haue more then thrée hundreth nullyons of Maſſes, all contrary and differinge the one from the other. By that meanes the Prophecie, the preaching of the worde of God, the Supper of Ieſus Chriſt, Prayers, and Eccleſiaſticall aſſemblyes, and the true commemoration of the Saints, are altogether abolyſhed, in ſuch ſorte that there is nothing, but that it is altogether peruerted and tourned into more greater ſuperſtition and Idolatry, then euer it was among the Panims. As much happened about ye other faythful that dye, which are not counted for Canomſed Saynts. For as on the one The original & beginning of ye prayers lot the dead. ſide they are giuen to inuocat & pray to the Saynts, whom they beléeue to bée in Heauen: Euen ſo on the other ſide, they giue themſelues to praye for the deade, whom they thinke to haue yet neede of their prayers and good deedes, for to helpe them, and to prepare the waye to Heauen, •• ſteede of the ſimple commemoration y they did in y auncient Chruch, without vſing praiers for the health of their ſoules. but only exhortatiōn, adm nitions & conſclatiōs, for the health and ſaluation of thoſe that be aliue. After that manner ought we to vnderſtand that whiche the auncient Eccleſiaſticall doctors haue written of the faythfull that dye, and of the care that we ought to haue of them. And if peraduenture it be ſo that Sainct Ambroſe, Criſoſtome, Cyprian, Hierome, Auguſtine, or any other the like, doe ſéeme to haue written otherwiſe, yet neuertheleſſe they will not allow ſuch ſuperſtition as is at this day amonge the Chriſtians: And although they ſhould haue done it, yet we are not bound to bel eue them, without the authoritye of the Scripture. We are moſt certaine of our ſide, that there is no place in all the holy ſcripture, by which one can proue that manner of dooing, except one will marre and peruert the ſence thereof. And for to declare the ſame more playnly, I demaund of thée, what the Prieſtes do in the name of the dead, doe they it for thoſe whiche are in hell?

Euſebius.

Thou mayſt well perceiue they doe it not. For they themſelues do ſing, that in hell there is no redemption, Quia in inferno nulla est redemptio. Luc. 16. g. 26. as it is playnly declared vnto vs by the aunſwer that Abraham made vnto the wicked ryche man, ſaying that there is a greate ſpace betwéene thoſe whiche are in the places of bleſſedneſſe, and thoſe whiche are in hell fire, vnto whom the riche cannot haue ſomuch only as one droppe of water for to put vpon his toungue for to coole it.

Theophilus.

Haue thoſe who are alreadye in Paradiſe with the bleſſed any profit, of their ſuffrages and prayers.

Euſebius.

They haue no more néede of them. The Prieſts doe not pray but for thoſe which are in Paradiſe.

Theophilus.

And yet neuertheleſſe they pray not but for thoſe that be there, and I will take none other witnes then themſelues to proue it. I pray thée conſider and examine wel the Epiſtle taken out of the Reuclation of S. Iohn, which they ſing in their Maſſe for the dead & marke viligently howe it agréeth with their Lugentibus in Purgatorio: And how is it poſſible that the faithfull that dye ſhould be roſted and tormented in Purgatorye, and that they ſhould be at reſt, as they ſing both the one and the other, ſpeaking againſt themſelues. They ſing: Bleſſed are Apoc. 14. c. 13 Beati mortui qui in Dommo moriuntur. A modo iam di it ſpiritus, vs reauteſant a laboribus ſuis. Opera en m lilorum ſequuntur illos. The eſtate of the faithfull that doe dye thoſe which hereafter dye in our Lorde, euen ſo ſaith the ſpirite, that they do reſt from their laboures, But theyr workes ſhall follow them. Firſt they ſay: Bleſſed are they which dye in the Lord. And who be thoſe that dye in the Lord, but the good, faithfull and the Chriſtians? If they then are bleſſed, all the other which do not dye: in the fayth of our Lord, are curſed.

Euſebius.

I denie it not.

Theophilus.

Wherein conſiſteth that bleſſedneſſe and felicitie? doth not Sainct Iohn giue the reaſon, alleaging not his authority, but the authority of he ſpirite of God, that he himſelfe hath heard? ſaying: hereafter they reſt from their laboures. Thou doeſt well perceiue that they are called bleſſed, bicauſe that by death they go and depart from the trauayles and wickedneſſe of this world, and after the ſame doe go into eternall reſt and ioy, Syth then that it is ſo, what neede they anye longer to ſing: Requiem eternam dona eis domine: O Lord giue them eternall reſt, ſyth that they haue it alreadye? For they doe not pray but for thoſe which are dead in our Lord.

Euſebius.

Thou interpreteſt the ſcripture for thine aduauntage and as it pleaſeth thée.

Hillarius.

Euſebius is always a good Gregorianiſt. But I do greatly feare y he Gregorianiſts. ſhall not eſcape Purgatory in the ende.

Euſebius.

You ſhall not yet plucke it out of my handes for all that. For Sainct Iohn ſpeaketh there properly, of the faithfull, which haue ſuffred, and which haue bene killed for the witnes of the truth. For thoſe haue ſuffred ſufficiently in this world, and haue had their Purgatorie. and accompliſned their penaunce. He ſpeaketh not generally of all the Chriſtians, but only of the Martirs, whom the greate beaſt hath perſecuted.

Theophilus.

I agree vnto thee that the holy ſpirit ſpeaketh that, chiefely for the conſolation of the poore that be afflicted, whiche ſuffer perſecution for the name of Ieſus, promiſing vnto them reſt, after the trauayles and wickedneſſe of this mortall life, for to fortefie and ſtrengthen them in the croſſe, to that end they may be more patient in tribulation, and that they ſhoulde perſeuer and continue boldlye and ſtedfaſtly vnto the ende. But you can not denye, but y the ſentence is generall, and that it comprehendeth all the faithfull. For they cannot bee faithfull without bearing rightly the croſſe of Ieſus Chriſt, and without hauing great paine and trauayle, after whiche they looke for reſt. And leaſt thou ſhouldeſt thinke that I haue alledged that place euill to the purpoſe, I will tell thée yet farther, that it maketh not onelye Purgatorie to fall downe, but alſo the inuocation of Saincts. For ſith that roſt from The inuoca tion of ſaints their labours is promiſed vnto the Saincts, and that the prayers whiche the holy men make for their neighboures, whileſt they are in this life, are compriſed and contayned amongſt the laboures of the ſainctes, we may conclude, that fter that they haue ended the courſe of this mortall life, and finiſhed their combat, that they reſt them that laboure as well as the other. For they haue no more neede but to prayſe God, and to giue him thankes, and oughte no more to be occupied for to ſerue men, ſith that they are out of all neceſſitie, and that they haue ended the miniſtry that they had amonge menne. At the leaſtwiſe, althoughe that it bee, wée haue not in all the holy ſcripture. example nor yét authority, for to endure and léad vs to inu cate them: But we haue not now to debate vpon that poynt, I haue onelye deſired to touche the ſame by the waye. As to the other matter, touch 〈◊〉 Purgatory, for to take front thee that fantaſie whiche thou haue againſt my interpretation. I will confyrme it vnto thée by the verye interpretatyou of the Prieſtes, taken from the chiefeſt of the Canon of theyr Maſſe. Marke well the Memento that they ſaye when they ſing Maſſe for the dead.

Hillarius.

Peraduenture hoe will not heare thée bicauſe he is altayd to be excommunicatod. And alſo hel da e you recyte it For you know verye well that it is forbidden The Canon of the Maſſe & the Ale ron are forbidden to be read. vnder paine of excommunication to all thoſe that bée not Prieſtes, to reade the Canon, and to recyte it.

Theophilus.

Aſwell is the Alcoran of Mahomet, vnder paine of death: But I will not be a frayd to read it for all that if I had it. For I buylde my ſelfe vpon S. Paul, which ſayth: Cramine all things and kéepe that whiche 1. Theſſ . 5. . 21. is good.

Thomas.

But it is otherwiſe of the Canon of the Maſſe for it is to be feared, that if the lay people ſhoulde heare the ſacramentall wordes pronounced, they woulde doe as the Prieſt, and that thereby would come greate hurte. As Clythoueus doth declare and witnes moſte euidently in his Clith. Eluci. li. 3. de. Cano. Clucidatory by the example of certaine Shepehardes, who bicauſe they haue heard and kept in mind the ſacramental wordes, did put bread vpon a ſtone, afterwardes they pronounced the wordes. That bread (as they ſaye) was conuerted and changed into fleſhe, after the pronunciation of & wordes. But fire and lightning fell ſodeinly downe from heauen vpon them and killed them all.

Hillarius,

The witneſſe is well worthy of the Doctor, from whom it procéeded. But he is not the firſt that hath inuented that fable. For Durant and others, that haue written of that matter dothe almoſte all of them alledge it.

Theophilus.

Wherefore then hath Ieſus Chriſt commaunded Rat. diui. off. li. 4. Nico. de plone. in tract. ſacerd The Goſpell published to all men Mat. 26. b. 26. Mar. 14. h. 13 Luc 22. h 19 1. Cor. 11. c. 24. that his Goſpell ſhoulde bee preached vnto all creatures, without excepting eyther the lay people or the ignorant, vnto whom yet neuertheleſſe the ſupper is recited all at length? Wherefore hath not he warned his Apoſtles to keepe thoſe wordes ſecret? And wherefore haue they publiſhed and written it all at length in their Goſpel bookes, which ought to be in the handes of all Chriſtians? Is the Canon of the Maſſe more worthy & more holy then the holy Goſpell of Ieſus Chriſt?

Euſebius.

ye ought not to ieſt or mocke: For you doe not yet know that God doth behold you. What ſayeſt thou of the Canon and Memento of the dead? Art thou ſo fooliſh and bolde that thou wilt finde fault wyth it?

Theophilus.

Firſt make what it conteineth, and after The Memento of the dead. Nemento eliā Domine famili orum & familiarum que tuarū N. qui nos proceſſerunt cum ſigno fidei & dormiunt in ſō no pacis † ipſis domine & omnibus in Chriſto quie ſeētibtes locum refrigerij lucis & pacis vt indulgeas de precamur. per eundem dominum Ieſum Chriſtum. Amen. A true hiſtory. thou ſhalt vnderſtand what I will ſay?

Euſebius.

I am very well content. For I am very ſure that you ſhal finde nothing to reproue me.

Theophilus.

I will recite it vnto ſhee worde for worde, that thou ſhouldeſt not thincke that I haue eyther added or diminiſhed any thing for mine own pleaſure: Remember O Lord thy men ſeruants and thy women ſeruaunts, who haue gone before vs with the ſigne of faith and doe reſt in the ſléepe of peace, We beſ ech thée O Lord, that it would pleaſe thée to graunte vnto them and vnto all thoſe that reſt in Chriſt, place of comfort, lyght and peace, through our Lord Ieſus Chriſt, Amen. Firſt, after that the Prieſt hath ſayd: R member O Lord thy men ſeruauntes, women ſeruaunts, and handmaydes, there is an N in a redde Letter, which ſignifieth in that behalfe that ye muſt expreſly name thoſe, for whome the Maſſe in ſong, and in whoſe name the money is payde for, faying it.

Hillarius.

I do know a man that ſometime had bene a Prieſt, and now lyueth honeſtly, after the reformation of the Goſpell who dyd confeſſe vnto me, that all the while that he was a Prieſte, that hée kept very good countenaunce in ſinginge Maſſe, vntyll hée came vnto that place: But when he was come to the commemoration of thoſe women and handmaydens, they entered ſo much into his head, that afterwardes he could not haue his ſpirite in quiet.

Euſebius.

Bicauſe that he was an whooremonger, hée Mariage of prieſtes coulde not lyue chaſtlye, but gaue hymſelfe to bee one of your ſocietye, for to breake hys volue and to mary.

Hillarius.

Hath he not done better, thē to burne through concupiſence and tranſgreſſe the commaundement of God 1. Cor 7. b. 9 Mat. 15. a. 3. Mat. 14. a. The vovve of Herode. VVhoredome. for to keepe his vow, as Herode who cauſed Iohn Baptiſt to be beheaded, for to keepe his oth? Hath not he done better then thoſe fat whooremōgers, who had rather to perſeuer in their whoredome, and to abide ſtil in their filthines, then to vſe the holy mariage which God hath giuen to bée 1. Cor. 7. 3. 2 a remedy vnto all thoſe y haue not the gift of continency: of which they do wel know how farre they are rō it. God knoweth what goodly redemers & aduocats y ſoules haue of them, betwéene God & them. Now much do you thinke y they haue, who do thinke more vpon their handmaides when they ſaye their Memento, then on the ſoules of Purgatory, for whome they doe ſinge the Maſſe? And although that their doctrine were true, they make you often Idolaters. For although that they affirme that the body of Ieſus Chriſt and God be realy in the hoaſt, yet neuertheleſſe their booke, whiche they call Rationale diuinorum Rationale diui norum officiorū officiorum, witneſſeth that if y Prieſt hath not the intent to conſecrate when he pronounceth the ſacramentall The intent to conſecrate. wordes, he doth not conſecrate. And ſo by that means it is not God, but the bread abideth ſtill bread. And conſequently all thoſe which doe worſhip it are Idolaters. For they doe worſhip the bread, and not God. Wherefore I referre it to thine owne ſelfe to thinke, when thoſe maidſeruauntes doe enter into their minde, and ſuch other fantaſies, which are as good ſtuffe, what intent they haue, when they thinke thereon, and what God they can forge.

Thomas.

By that reckening the Prieſt whiche was A true hiſtory in the yere 1538. of a Prieſt that vvas a forcerer and of his. vvhoore burned at Rolle in the time of Lent. burned of late at Rolle, which is betwéene Lauſanna and Geneua, for that he was a Sorcerer ought to haue made the people Idolaters. For he confeſſed that he was xxiiij. yeares a Sorcerer. And which is more, hée had alſo hys whoore which was a Sorcereſſe, who was burned aſwell as he, who did make hir a Sorcereſſe. Foraſmuche then as he denyed God, Creame and Baptiſme, as all Sorcerers doe confeſſe in their proces (if it bée ſo) what fayth can he haue to the Maſſe, and what conſecration ought he to make?

Hillarius.

The Papiſtes doe thincke that the ſame is well prouided for by the counſayle which the booke aboue alledged gyueth them. For to auoyde ſuch an inconucnience, he counſayleth the Chriſtian that he doe worſhip the hoaſt with ſuch condition, ſaying in his heart: Lord god if thou art there, I doe worſhip thée: if thou art not ther, I doe not worſhip thée. And that counſaile is taken from Tho. in li. 3. ſen. diſt. 9. 10. Ludo. viual. de monte regali. in aur. oope. de. ver. t. cō The buylding of the faith of tranſubſtantiacion Thomas Aquinus, who reſolued that queſtion after y ſort. For by that condicion all adoration, if ther be but bread, he auoydeth to be an Idolater. But I pray thée conſider a little, whether y our fayth be well builded, ſeing that it is builded vpon the intent of a Prieſt, and howe that it can be faith, séeing alwaies that it is in doubt.

Euſebius.

Thou art a ſlaunderer. For all y Doctours ſay not ſo?

Hillarius.

I do well know that they are not all of one agréement and that Nicholas de Ploue, ſayth, that the intent is neceſſarily requiſite, and not the attent, and that it ſufficeth Nicolaur de ploue intentio non attentio. in tract. ſacerd. that y Prieſt haue a general intent to conſecrate, although that he be not alwaies attentiue, and thincke not ſtill on that that he ſayth and doeth, wherein neuertheleſſe hée ſinneth greatly. All doe trauaile as much as they can to finde reaſon out of reaſon. But it ſufficeth me ſo that the ſame which I ſpeake be written in the booke whiche gyueth the reaſon of your diuine ſeruice and ceremonies.

Theophilus.

Thou haſt no good manner, in alwaies interrupting vs in our talk.

Hillarius.

What wilt thou haue me to doe? When I remember the great follies that they haue ſpoken & done, I am conſtrained to make ſome parentheſis, & ſome little digreſſiō. But leue not off to return vnto thy matter & to go forward with it. I beleeue y thou haſt not forgotten it. That followeth afterwards which thou haſt ſaid of y menſeruaunts & maidſeruaunts: which haue gone before vs with the ſigne of faith, & do reſt in the ſléep of peace.

Theophilus.

Thou ſéeſt already Euſebius, for The prieſts do pray but for thoſe which are already in Paradiſe whō they pray, to wit for thoſe, of whō S. Iohn ſpeaketh off in ye Apocalips, which are dead in our Lord, & reſt frō their labours. For to dye in our Lord, & to go with y ſigne of faith, to reſt from their labours, & to reſt in the ſléepe of peace, is all one. And Clithoue himſelfe is conſtrained In Eluci. 3. can. expo. to expounde thoſe woordes by the ſame of Saint Iohn. Wherefore thou maiſt know, that they doe praye but for thoſe which are already in Paradiſe. For there are none other whiche doo reſt in the ſléepe of peace but thoſe. It followeth then that they doe alſo pray for y virgin. To pray for the Virgin Mary & the Saynts Mary and for all the Saintes of Paradiſe. Now let vs heare what thing they require for them. Wée beſéech thée that it would pleaſe thoe to graunt vnto them and vnto all thoſe that reſt in Chriſt, place of comfort, lyghte and peace: If they reſt in Ieſus Chriſt, are they not already in place of comfort, lyght and peace? Otherwyſe I know not what it is to reſt in Ieſus Chriſte, ſeeinge that it is written. That although that the righteous be ouertaken Sapl. 4. 7. wyth death, yet ſhall he be in reſte. If they be in a fire, as the wycked rich man, of whom thou haſt ſpoken, & that they doe burne as they make vs beléeue, what difference is there betwéene them and the dampned? Thou knoweſt very well that Lazarus who was in Abrahams Luc. 16. 22 boſome, and who reſted in the ſléepe of peace, bicauſe that he was departed from this world, with the ſigne of faith that he had in the promiſes made vnto Abraham, & of the ſéede of bleſſedneſſe, was in a place far differing from the other, in which he reſted in ioy, pleaſures and delights. For if after that the faythfull be called f ō this world, he wero kept in the fire, in what reſt ſhould he be frō his laboures? Should he not be in worſe eſtate then he was before?

Hillarius.

After that I haue laboured al the day, & haue much ſweated, it I muſt go into a furnaſe when I ſhould go to bed, for to reſt my ſelfe in y ſame al night, I woulde neuer go to bed.

Theophilus.

But where ſhould be the promiſe of Ieſus Chriſt who hath ſaid ſo oftentimes: Hée y beléeueth in me hath euerlaſting life and ſhall not come The promiſes of God contrary vnto the papiſticall purgatory. Iohn. 5. 24 into condempnation, but hath paſſed from death vnto life? And that which S. Paul ſaide, now then there is no condempnation to thé that are in Chriſt Ieſus, which walke not after y fleſh, but after the ſpirit.

Euſebius.

That is not repugnant: For thoſe which are in purgatory are alredy Rom. 8. 1. aſſured that they ſhall not be dampned. But they ſhal haue eternal life; after y they haue ſatiſfie for their ſins. Theophilus. Sith that there is ſuch puniſhment, it muſt néedes bée that it hath iudgement and condemnation: For God puniſheth not without iudgeing: And I knowe not how wée can make y opinion agree with ſo many goodly promiſes which God hath made vnto vs by his Prophetes, and by all the holy Scriptures: nor yet with that whiche the Prieſts themſelues doe ſinge in the proſe of the deade, The proſe or prayer of the dead. Dies irae, dies lla. which beginneth: Dies irae, dies illa ſoluet ſeculum, &c. They doe ſay in a little verſe.

O king of reuerent maieſty, which ſaueſt all ſoules freely, From euill Lord deliuer me, thou fountaine of all clemencie.

They céerely and plainely confeſſe that wée are ſaued through grace, and doe vſe thys aduerbe, Gratis, which ſignifieth froely and franckly. Wherein they doe very well agrée to that which Sainct Paul witneſſeth, ſaying: You are iuſtified fréely by his grace. That is not then by our Rom. 3. d. 24: Rom. 21. a. 6 Gal. 2. d. 16 Ephe. 2. b. woorkes, and ſatiſfactions: For then were grace no more grace. I doe much meruayle how that good woorde eſcaped them.

Hillarius.

I thincke that the ſame chaunſed bicauſe of the rime, for to make all rime in Atis. For in the firſt verſe there is:

Rex tremende maieſtatis. And for to make all to be in Atis, they haue ſayd: Qui ſaluandos ſaluas gratis, Salua me ſons pietatis.
Theophilus.

Now do thoſe ſatiſfactions agrée with that that the Lorde promiſed, ſayinge: if the vngodlye will Eze. IS. c. 21 tourne away from all his ſinnes that hée hath done, they ſhall not be thought vppon any more: Alſo though our ſins ſhalbe as red as ſcarlet, purple, or y worme that cōmeth Eſa. 1. e. 18 out of the earth, he will make them as white as woll & the ſnow, and will caſte all our ſinnes behinde his backe, and Eſa. 38. 17 wyll putte them as farre (as Dauid witneſſeth) as the Eaſt is from the Weſt, and wyll caſt them in the bottome Pſa. 105. 12 Mich. 7. 19. of the ſea.

Euſebius.

Wherefore then reſerued he yet paines vnto Dauid, after that the faulte was pardoned 2. Reg. 12. 15. 16. 1 . & 18 The punishmēt of Dauid him, inſomuch that he was driuen from his kingdome by his owne ſonne Abſalom? Wherefore puniſhed & chaſtiſed he him, after that the Prophet Nathan had declared vnto him the remiſſion of his ſinne?

Theophilus.

For vvhat cauſe God chaſtiſeth vs in this world When God chaſtiſed Dauid, & when he chaſtiſeth vs euery day, bicauſe of our ſinnes, he doth it not ſo much, for the ſinne which hath bene committed, as for to aouertiſe and admoniſh vs, that we do not ſinne heereafter. And the paine that we beare is not for to ſatiſfie God. For ther is none other Satisfaction ſor the ſinnes ſatiſfaction then the death & paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt, that he can allow to be ſufficient. For if we muſt ſatiſfie for our ſelues, we muſt beare & cary all the importable burthen of the wrath and iudgement of God. Now if we muſt beare them, there is none of vs but ſhould haue his ſhoulders broken, and ſhould be plunged & drowned in the goulfe & bottome of hell with the Diuels. For if the Angels could 2. Pet. 2. 4 not beare it, which of vs ſhall be ſufficient, which are but wormes of the earth? And wherfore did God our good father ſend vs Ieſus Chriſt to helpe vs, but to that end that he would beare it & ſatiſfie for vs, & that thorow his ſatiſfaction Iohn 3. 16 Rom. 3. 24 we ſhould be reconciled vnto God, & deliuered from his iudgement? Seing then that God our father hath the ſatiſ action of Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne, which is more then ſufficient for vs all, he requireth for vs none other ſatiſfaction. And if hee require good woorkes of vs, he requireth VVhat workes God requireth of vsand 10: vvhat ende them not for ſatiſfaction, for they are too inſufficient: But for prayſes and giuing of thanckes, and wytneſſes of our faith, & of the remembraunce that wee haue of the benefites that hoe hathe gyuen vnto vs in his ſonne Ieſus Chriſt, and for to incite our bretheren for to prayſe and magniſte hym. Therefore ſayde Ieſus Chriſte vnto hys Dyſciples. Let your lyght ſo ſhine before men, that Mat. 5. 16 they maye ſée your good woorkes and glorifie your Father which is in heauen. Hée ſayde not to the ende that by them, you ſhoulde ſatiſfie for your ſinnes: or that you ſhoulde merite the kingdome of heauen, and bée iuſtyfied. For the faythfull man hath obteyned alreadye all that by the fayth of Ieſus Chriſte, whiche is Rom. 3. 22. Gala. 2. 16 1. Cor. 1. 30 our wiſedome, ryghteouſneſſe, ſanctification, thorowe whoſe merite Paradiſe is gyuen vnto vs. For that cauſe the holye Apoſtle calleth the eternall lyfe, the gift of GOD. Wherefore wée maye vnderſtande that we meryte it not thorowe our good déedes, but it is gyuen Rom. 6. 23. Merite & grace vs froelye, thorowe Gods lyberalytie: Euen as the Fathers enheritaunce is gyuen vnto the ſonne: not for that he hath deſerued it, but bycauſe that hée pleaſed hym ſo, for that hee loued him, and that hée is hys chylde, and wyll gyue hym his goodes fróely. Otherwyſe grace Rom. 6. 6. ſhoulde bée no more grace, but debte. On the contrary, when Saynct Paul did ſpeako of the eternall death, hée Rom. 6. 23. calleth it the wages of ſinne: declaringe thereby that man hathe well deſerued it, and that hée can deſerue none other thinge, but that that wages is due vnto Iohn. 15 hym, for a recompence of the ſeruice that hée hathe done vnto the Diuell, the Prince of this worlde, euen as the wages which is payde vnto a ſouldyer, for bearynge of weapons vnder hys Capitayne. Wee 〈◊〉 then ſée that The workes of the Angels and of the elect. the woorkes done by the chyldren of God, and the ſeruice that the Angelles doo vnto hym, doe tende all vnto one ende, to witte, to glorifie GOD and to ſanctyfie his name. Euen as then the Angelles ſerue not GOD for to merite Paradyſe, of whiche they are alreadye in poſſeſſion, neyther for ſatiſfaction of theire ſinnes, of whithe they are not entangled: But onelye for the loue that they haue in GOD, and the deſyre of hys glorye, ſo Gods electe doe regarde none other thinge, for they are alreadye waſhed and purged 1. Cor. 6. 11 Apo. 1. 8. Act. 15. 9. Iohn. 13. 14 from theire ſinnes by the bloud of Ieſus Chriſt, and theyre hearte puryfied by the faythe in hym, and thorowe the woorde that they haue hearde of hym: And are already poſſeſſors of ye kingdome of heauē in hope: the which is no leſſe ſure and certeine, then if the thinge were preſent, and that the Angels are aſſured of that that they haue. Therefore the holy Apoſtle ſayth, that wee Rom. 8. e. 44. Ephe. 1. 1. 0 are ſaued thorowe hope, and that Ieſus Chriſt doth make vs ſitte in the heauenly places. And therefore when God doth chaſtiſe and cortect vs in this worlde, that is, as the Apoſtle alſo writeth vnto the Corinthians, for to correct and chaſtiſe vs, that we ſhould not be damned wyth the worlde and the Infidels: bicauſe that we are yet in the waye, and 1. Cor. 11. g. 31 capable of chaſtiſment and ainendement, But there is an other reaſon after thys lyfe héere, when wee are out of the waye; and néede, and that wee cannot any more empayre nor amend: And therefore the Lorde doth chaſten vs héere, as the good Father who beateth not his ſonne for to haue The chaſtiſen t of a father tovvardes his clulde. any recompence thereby for the faulte that hée hath committed: For the paine of the childe bringeth no profite vnto the Father. Alſo he doth not beat him through rigor nor throughe mallice that hée hath to take vengeaunce of him: For hée loueth him as his childe, and the fatherly affection maketh him ſoone forget the faultes and iniuries that he hath done vnto him: As it is cleerely ſhewed vnto vs in the Father of the prodigall childe. Luc. 15. . 22.

Euſebius.

What hath ye father then to do to chaſtiſe him?

Theophilus.

If hée knewe that he woulde neuer doe any more fault he would ſoone pardon him, without any puniſhment: But fearing leaſt thorow his great patience gentleneſſe ſhoulde fall agayne, hee is conſtrained to beate and chaſtiſe him, although that he doe, it not willingly, but it to that ende to make hym more prudent and wyſe, and to better aduiſe himſelfe in time to come, and that he take diligent heede not to ſall againe in y fault or in any other greater. The which is no more to be feared in thoſe whome, GOD hath called from this worlde. Wherefore they cannot anye more rectius puniſhment whiche ſhoulde be to c n en them as is y ſame of the father towards his child, for to amend him. But if there hée a puniſhment, The punishmēt of the malefactors. it is rather, to declare the iudgement & the ſeuerity of God towards the wicked and reprobates, and to manyfeſt his goodnes and mercy towardes his elect: As the Iudge doth condemne the traytor, murtherer and other malefactors, that haue deſerued death, not for to haue any recompence, nor thoſe vnto whom they haue done wronge and iniury. For what recompence can they haue by their deathes? neyther do they it for to cauſe them to walke in time to come more vprightly, ſith that they take from them their life: But for to ſatiſfie righteouſnes, and to mayntaine it, to that end that other may take example, and that they may know how auayleable it is to haue followed vertue and eſchewed vice.

Euſebius.

To what purpoſe then doth Sainct Iohn Apo. 14. c. 13 Obie cten O pera. N. illorum ſequuntur illos. VVhat orkes follovv y dead. in his reuelation ſay: Their works do follow them? what workes do follow them, but the good déedes that men doe for them after their death? For thoſe that they haue done whileſt they lyued went before, not after. Wherefore it followeth that there are ſome other which do profit them.

Theophilus.

Sainct Iohn ſpeaketh it bycauſe that their workes do beare witnes that they are the children of God. He ſayth not other mens workes, but theyr owne workes. For as man lyueth of his owne ſoule, and not of the ſoule of an other mans, euen ſo doth the righteous man of his faith. And as the righteous man lyueth of his faith, & not of the faith of an other, euen ſo ſhal euery one be iudged according to his workes, and not after Abac. 2. a. 4. Rom. 1. b. 17 Rom. 2. a. 6 thoſe that other men ſhall doe. For it is written: Euery one ſhall beare his owne burthen. And therefore Ieſus Chriſt ſayth: by thy worde & thou ſhalt bee iuſtified: and by thy wordes thou ſhalt be condemned: That is ſo ſaye thy Gala. 6. b. 5 Mat. 12. d. 37. Wherefore the Iudgement shal be according to the vvoorkes wordes and thy workes ſhal beare witnes, of thy heart, and by them thou ſhalt, bée iuſlified, that is to ſaye, abſolued, declared and pronounced iuſt and righteous: O by them thou ſhalt be condem ned, knowen and iudged worthy of death and condemnation. Not that God néedeth any witnes of our workes, for to know whether we are worthy of abſolution or condēnation. For he knoweth y hearts, & néedeth none other witnes but his owne. Pſa. 159. a. 2 〈◊〉 . 9 〈◊〉 . 30 〈◊〉 . 4 But y ſcripture vſeth ſuch māner of ſpeaking for to apply it to our capacitie, for to manifeſt & declare vnto vs better ye Iuſt Iudgemēt of god, which wil ſhew foorth y h pecri e of mā heart. For mā how wicked ſoeuer his heart be, he wold alwaies hide it: & if one put it to his own cō c éce although y he do condemne it, he wil not for y leaue off to aduaſice & brag he y le an honeſt man, vntil ſuch time as he he také with his wicked déed, as y theefe wt his ſtea ing. For he is ſo peruers & wicked although y be be taken wt the deed, he wil excuſe himſelf: And as y ſhameles whore, is not a ſhamed to deny y which we ſee wt our eyes, & hanole wt our hands: As we haue an example in Came. Although Gene. 4. b. 9. that he killed his brother, and y his handes were yet all blouddy and wette with the bloud that he ad ſhed, it ſeemeth to heare him ſpeake, that God did vnto him greate miury and wronge, in aſking him where he is. And therefore God would vanquiſhe the malyce and peruerſitie of mans hearte, and condemne it by the workes that are manifeſt, for to declare vnto him, and to make him confeſſe by the fruite, that he is the roote a d the tree, to the ende that he may not glorify himſelf to be the Figge & the O life Mat. 7. c. 16 tree, when one doth emdently ſhewe vnto him the thornes & thiſtles that it hath born. And euen ſo euery creature is conſtrayned to acknowledge and conf ſſe, that the iudgement of God is iuſt, and that it conſiſteth in all truth and equitie. Now the workes y men do for vs, after that wee The vvorks dene for vs after our death. bee dead, are not ours. Wherefore wee cannot ſaye, that they follow vs. For it is another matter to bee in the way and iourney, and to haue already ended his iourney and to be arriued at the port, whyleſt that we are in the courſe of this preſent life, he taketh vs as a ſree which yet groweth, the which one may dreſſe and proyne, for to To be in the vvay make him beare fruite. But when he is once cut downe, ther is no more hope, he lieth wher lie falleth, he muſt trauayle no more afterwards. In like maner may we iudge of man. Whileſt y he is in ye way, & that he is in his courſe & Luc. 13. b. 6 ſight, one may aide him by admonitiōs, entreatings & other morkes of charitie, which we owe y one to y other, whilſt y we are herein ye work of god, for vs to helpe the one the other to obteine & win the victory. But after that he hath called vs from the worke in the which he hath ſet vs, wée muſt attend and looke no more but for the rewarde and Crowne of righteouſenes, the which the righteous Iudge ſhall giue vnto vs, as Sainct Paul hoped for himſelfe, as 2. Timo. 4. b. we haue fought for him the good fight, and haue fulfilled our courſe and haue kept the faith vnto the ende: On the contrary, we muſt looke for feare, confuſion, and eternall death, as the ſlougthfull ſeruant, vnfaithfull and vngrations, we haue hid away and ſtollen the Talent away Mat. 25. c. 26 from our Maiſter, without bringing vnto him any profit. Mat. 3. b. 8. Therefore Sainct Iohn ſaith: Bring foorth fruites worthy of repentance: that is to ſay, thorow which you ſhewe foorth that truely you repent you of your ſinnes, and that you haue amended your euill life. For the are is put vnto the roote of the tree, ſo that euery tree whiche bringeth not foorth good fuite, is hewen downe and caſt in to the fire. Uppon that ma ter Sainct Auguſtine did writte Mat. 3. c. 10. vnto Macedonius after this manner: There is no other place for to correct and amende manners, then in this life. Augu. Epiſt. 54 For after this life euery one ſhall haue that that hee hath gottē here. And in another place he ſaith: In this world the Sermo 66. de tempore mercy of god helpeth thoſe y rep t: But in y world to come repētance profiteth not, but we muſt rīder accompt of our works. Liberty of repētance is only giuen vnto vs in this life, after y we be dead there is no more licr̄ce of correctiō. Now is y time of mercy, after wards ſhalbe ye time of iudgment. And in expoūding thoſe words of Ieſus Chriſt: Hee In 10. tract. 12. Marc. 16. d. 16 which beleeueth not is already iudged, ſaith after this mā ner. The iug ei ēt appereth not yet, but y iudgemēt is already done. For y Lord knoweth who are his. He knoweth 2. Tim. 2. d. 1 thoſe which abyde looking & farryng for the crown, & thoſe which abyde looking for the fire. Moreouer Sainct Iohn Chuſoſtome ſpeaketh more plainely, confirming that Chriſoſleme de L. 12. t. con. 2. which I haue ſaid, in ſuch words: Prepare and make reaby thy works for the end, and prepare thy ſelf to the way, and if thou haſte taken any thing by violence from anye man, reſtore it againe: and make reſtitution, and ſay with Luc. 19. b. 8 Zachens: if I haue taken from any man by forged cauilatiō, I reſtore him foure fould. If thou art angry with any man, agree with him, before that thou do come vnto iudgement: diſpatche here al things, that without let thou mayſt ſée that Iudictall ſeate. All the while that wee are here in this world we haue goodly hopes, but aſſone as we ſhalbe gone from thence, it lyeth no more in oure power to doe penaunce, nor to deface and put out our ſinnes. For after ye Hom. 22 and popu. In Mat. 11 Hom. 37. In Heb. c. 1. & 2. Hom. 4. end of our life, there is no more occaſion of merites, no more then there is vnto thoſe ye play at priſes & games, to obtaine crownes and rewardes after that the combat, play and priſes are finiſhed and ended. For he which in this preſent life hath not waſhed away his ſinnes, afterwards he ſhal finde no conſolation. For in hell (as it is written) who ſhall confeſſe thee? That is to ſay, who ſhall prayſe Pſa. 6. b. 6 thee in the graue? And by good reaſon. For this is the time of the Theators, of Combals, Playes, and Priſes: But ye ſhalbe the time of the Crownes, rewards and ſalaryes. Alſo let vs not thinke when we ſhall be come thyther, that we ſhall haue mercy, which do nothing at all, wherefore we ought to haue pardon: No though Abraham, Noe, Iob, and Daniell did pray for vs. Whileſt then wee haue time, let vs prepare for our ſelues great truſt and aſſurance towards God. And Sainct Hierome ſaith no leſſe, confeſſing that Hierome. 12. q. 2. Inpreſenti. Ambroſius. lib. de bon. mor. ca. 2. in the other world. And Sainct Ambroſe, is of the ſame opinion, ſaying, Dauid required that his ſinnes might bee pardoned him before that he departed out of this life. For he that ſhall not here in this life receaue forgiueneſſe of his ſinnes, ſhal not haue it in the other: he ſhall not haue it bicauſe he ſhall not haue the power to come and attaine to the eternal life. For ye forgiuenes of ſinnes, is the eternall life. Therfore ſaith hee: pardon mee O Lorde, that I may bee comforted before that I goo and ſhall be no more. And therefore I greatly meruatle of that papiſticall doctrine, which is ſo repugnant both to the holy ſcriptures, and to the witneſſe of the auncient Doctors of the Cyprian Churche. Sainct Cyprian hath written, in the Sermon that he made of the immortalitie, that the faithfull that do dye, haue taken white robes and garments, By which he The office ſorthe dead Domine Ieſu Chreſte rex glorie libera ammas omnium ſidelium deſire torum & de penis inferni de profundo lacu Lsbera, eas de ore leonis, ne ab ſor beat eas tar tarus, ne cadūt in obſcuro ſed ſignifer ſanctus Michael rpreſentet eas in lucem ſanctam quam olim Abrahe promiſiſls & ſeminie ius Quia in inſerno nulla est redemptio. Mantua. 3. calami Sed ne que rex Ereli quem que tranare paludi Nee ſuper is ite rū reddt ſinit The ſignificatiō of hell. meaneth, that they are come to the beatitude and felicitie, and feacheth, that we muſte wéepe no more for the dead. Sith that they are alreadie in the eſtate of felicitie. But me thinkes that the Prieſtes do not take them to bee aſſured of the eternall life whom they lodge in their Purgatory, but that from Purgatory, they may yet fall into hell: Or if they vnderſtand it not ſo, wherefore do they ſing in the offertory of the Maſſe for the dead? Domine Ieſu Chriſti &c. That is to ſay, O Lord Ieſu Chriſt king of glory deliuer the ſoules of all the faithfull that dye from the paines of hell, and from the déepe lake. Deliuer thē from ye Lions mouth, leaſt ye in hell he deuour thē, leſt ye they fal not in ye obſcure & dark places, but ye S. Michel ye ſtandard bearer do repreſent thē into the holy light, which of late thou diddeſt promiſe vnto Abraham and to his ſeed.

Thomas.

Mee thinkes that this is repugnant vnto that which Euſebius hath ſpoken before, and to that which the Prieſts do ſing, ſaying: that in hell there is no raunſome nor delyuerance. And yet nenertheleſſe, they pray here in that o fertory, vnto Ieſus Chriſt, that he wil deliuer them from the paines of hell. It muſt then needes follow, that eyther their prayer is vaiue, and that they demaunde a thing of God which they do very well knew to be impoſſible and contrary vnto his will, or that there is aſwel deliuerance in hell as in Purgatory, and that they ſpeake againſt themſelues, or els that hell & Purgatory be al one thing.

Euſebius.

Thy diſiunetiue is not good. For not, withſtanding ye commonly men take hell for the hell fire and the place of the dampned, yet neuertheleſſe it may bee vnderſtanded more amply for yt low places and coſitries, & the eſtate & condicion of the dead: after this manner, his ſignification ſhall comprehende & contrine alſo the Purgatory, as it doth in this place here.

Hillarius.

We muſte then expounde it of the paines of hell, that is to ſay, of the paines of Purgatory.

Euſebius.

It cannot be vnderſtanded otherwiſe.

Thomas.

And what ſhall we vnderſtand by the deepe lake?

Euſebius.

The very ſame.

Thomas,

There is then alſo a lake in Purgatory?

Hillarius.

You do well Thomas to be affrayd, Did you neuer here before, how ye prieſts did pay ye ſeriage for to haue ye dead paſſe ouer? It is then neceſſarye ye they haue their fery man Charon, for to let paſſe & repaſſe ye ſoules, aſwel Charon the fery man. as ye Panims & Poets had. Now if there be a Charon & a fery man, he cānot carry ouer ſoules wtout ye there is ſeas lakes, or ryuers, for to caryhis boats, ſcyfes, ſhips, barkes & gallies.

Thomas.

But I am greatly abaſhed wherfore wée do call thoſe that dye, in the french tongue treſpaſſes. Thinke that it was bicauſe that they were already paſſed vvherefore vve do call the dead bodyes in french treſpailes. from this life in the other. But as farre as I can perceiue it is rather bicauſe that they haue paſſed ouer thoſe infernall lakes and reuers.

Hillarius.

I doe beléeue that the Chriſtians and true faithfull people haue called their dead treſpaſſes: ſignifiyng by yt ſame that the death of the faithfull is no death, but only a paſſage for to enter into life, & thoſe which are dead Iohn. 5. a. 24 in ye faith of Ieſus Chriſt, according to his promiſes, are paſſed from death to life. And therfore they are rightly called treſpaſſes bicauſe ye they are already paſſed ouer, & are come vnto the port of health, in which they reſt in ioy and conſolation wc Ieſus Chriſt their Lorde, hauing eſcaped all the daūgers, & the great gculfes of ye ſea of this world, The Pope Pinto, Eacus, Minos, Rhadamantus and Neoptolemus. of ſinne, death & hell. But ſithence ye the pope hath begun to reign in ſtéed of Ieſus Chriſt, & ye he hath take the office of Pluto ye god of hel, & of Eacus, Minos, Rhadamantus, and Neoptolemus ye infernal iudges, as a newe king, hée would chaūge ye laws, eſtates, habitations & māners of huing of his ſubiects ye be dead, aſwel as of thoſe y be aliue, The decrees & Canous of Leſus Chriſt. & endeuoreth himſelfe wc all his power & ſtrength to aboliſh & put out ye laws, ordinances, inſtitutions, holy Canōs & inuiolated decrées, which Ieſus Chriſt hath giuen aſwel to ye liuing as to ye dead by his prophets & apoſtles, paſſed, confirmed, ratefied & ſealed by the arreſt of the celeſtiall & beauenly court & by the great counſell & wiſedome of god, of the holy trinitie of ye father, the ſonne & the holy ghoſt, of all the angels & archangels, Saincts & Sainctes, patriarkes, apoſtles, Euangeliſts, Martirs, Confeſſors & Mirgins, to the end y the faithful wcout any other, ſhould haue place in heauen, in earth & in hell.

Theophilus.

He woulde The Emperors & Pope do abolish the ſtatutes of their predeceſſours. do vnto Ieſus Chriſt, as the Romaine Emperors, & the Popes haue done many times the one againſt the other, making fruſtrate, & boyd ye which their predeceſſors haue made & ordeined. For in aſmuch as they haue made Ieſus Chriſt the firſt pope, & S. Peter ye ſeconde, I thinke, ye it ſeemeth good vnto thē, ye aſwell they maye abrogate & make boide their ordinances, as they haue done thoſe of other Popes their predeceſſors, changing moſt ofcē times ye that the firſt haue ordeyned, & making fruſtrate their counſels & decrées, eſpecially ſithence ye time of pope Stephen, who made boide al ye which Formoſus his predeceſſor had don. Ieſus Chriſt the eternall Plipe, Plat. in vita Stepha. 6. & Formoſus. 1. Stephan. 6. For moſus 1. Antibopes & Schiſmatickes But they do in that great wrong vnto Ieſus Chriſt that ſithēce he is riſen againe there are ſo many popes riſen vp in his place. For they wil not ſuffer that one ſhould chooſe another whilſt they are aliue: or if that be done, they call him antipope ye is choſen in ſpite of their bearde, and hold for ſciſinaticks aſwel him as thoſe that haue choſen him & which are Ioyned wc him. They call him antipope who ſetteth himſelf againſt him whē they eſtéeme to be ye Chriſt & Antechriſt. Rom. 6. a. 4 1. Cor. 15. b. 12 Ephe. 1. d. 28 & 2. b. 6 Coloſſ. t. c. 18. Mat. 28. d. 20 true pope, eue as we ſet antichriſt againſt Chriſt. Sith thē ye Ieſus Chriſt is riſe frō death he is immortal, & ſhall dye no more, but ſhal abiee & dwel eternally wt his churche, of which he is ye only head, according to y promiſe y hee hath made to his diſciples, ſaying: beld I am with you vntill the ende of the world: For aſmuch alſo as that great hea •• nly father, of whom proceedeth all fatherly loue y is called Ephe. 3. c. 15 Daniel. 7. 1 22 y olde aged, of whom Daniel ſpeaketh off, he hath giuen vnto him al iudgment, power & ſeigniory both in heauen & in earth, & hath made him to be called by his prophet, the father of the world to come, Prince of peace, willing y in y name of Ieſus ſhould euery knee how, both of Eſa. 9 b 6 Phll. 2. b. 10 Apo. . d. 13 things in heauen & things in earth and thinges vnder the earth, I am greatly abaſhed frō whence this ouer boldnes & raſhnes ſhould proceed to create & thoſe other popes then he, ſith y he is alwayes aliue, & y he is the Lord of y quick and of the dead, and his kingdome hath nene ende.

Hillarius.

They cannot denie but that they are al Antipopes. That is to ſay contrary and enemies to the true Hope, & ſo conſequently heritickes and ſchiſmatickes. For ſith y Ieſus Chriſt is the true Chriſt, & true Pope, that is All Popes Antipopes & Anticuriſts to ſay, the father of y Chriſtian Church, it followeth that they are Antichriſts & Antipapes of the churche of Ieſus Chriſt, & true & lawful Popes of y of Antichriſt. y which hath not onely of trepaſſe but alſo paſſed, repaſſed & trepaſſed, which neuer ſhall finde reſt. For they muſt firſte paſſe into Purgatory, & after repaſſe, for to put them out, & againe to paſſe all ouer for to put them in the Popes The Papiſticall irges paradiſe. But as ſlowly as they can, when they can gette no more money. Wherefore it muſt needes be y there are lakes & ryuers, at the leaſt, inſomuch as y Poets doe declare The lakes and internall finds. it, ſith that we muſt ſo much paſſe and repaſſe.

Thomas.

But how can y fire & water agrée together if Fire. & vvater. there are ſo many riuers & deepe waters, it ſeemeth to me y it is great folly, to caſt y holy water vpō y graues, & vpō y dead, ſith that they haue ſuch ſlore below with them. If Holy vvater vn profitable. I were below in Durgatory within that fire. which is ſo hot & burning, I would finde the meanes, if it were poſſible, to get me neere vnto thoſe riuers, & would plunge my ſelfe therein, as a Ducke and a Coote.

Hillarius.

I would not that the Prieſts ſhould ſing & pray for mee, that I might be deliuered from y deepe lake, for I had rather to be a fiſh, and to dwell therein alwaies.

Thomas.

Thou cauſe be no better at thine eaſe. For thou ſhalt be alwayes in the freſh water, and maiſt drinck when thon wilt.

Hillarius.

That ſhould be a goodly paſtime for y drunckardes, if thoſe ſlouds were of wine, & for thoſe that dwell vpon the mountaines, if it were of milke, as in the time of Saturne, and in the time of the golden Age, if the Fluds of vvyne & of milke. Ouid. Meta. 1 Flumina Iam lactis, Iam flumina nectaris ibant. The infernall fluddes their names & interpretations. Lethe, Acherō, Styx, Cocytus, Phlogeton. witneſſe of the Poets be true. But I rather feare that thoſe are not alwaies that, as the Poets haue ſayd, and that one cannot alwaies attribute vnto them their auncient names: Although that the Pope raigneth there in ſtéede of Pluto. For the one is called, Lethe, y is to ſay, obliuion: An other Acheron, that is to ſay, without Ioy: An other Stix, that is to ſay, ſadneſſe: An other Cocytus, that is to ſay, mourning and lamentation: An other Phlegeton, that is to ſaye, heate. Now what other thing can there be in the Popes Purgatory, if it be ſuch as they haue deſcribed vnto vs. I finde it in nothing to differ from the Poeticall hels. Wherfore they doe no great wrong, if they do ſing: Deliuer them from the déepe lake, and from the Lyons mouth. Syth that that roaring Lyon is there, it muſt of force bée that it is hell. But they fayle in this that they haue not directed their prayer vnto the Pope, and hys, which haue caſte the ſoules therein and holde them there, and not vnto Ieſus Chriſt, who handeleth not ſo cruelly thoſe of his faythfull ſeruauntes. But truely thoſe which wyll not drincke of the fountaine ef life of our Sauiour Ieſ s, and of hys goodlye Pſa. 12. a. 3 & 55. . 1. Iere. 2. c. 13. ſwéete riuers, which are more ſweeter then either wine or milke, are well worthy to drincke of thoſe bile and ſtincking papiſticall Ceſterns, and to be plunged and drowned in thoſe pits and infernall lakes, and to lyue in the yron Age.

Euſebius.

Thou blameſt the Sophiſters, but I neuer The ſignificatioſ the deepe lake. ſawe a greater Sophiſter nor greater ſlaunderer. When the Prieſts doe pray that Ieſus Chriſte woulde delyuer the ſoules from the déepe lake, is it not eaſie to be vnderſtanded, that they ſpeake not of a lake full of water, but that woorde is taken by tranſlation and compariſon, for to declare and ſhew foorth y depth of y miſeries in which ſinne leadeth the poore ſinners?

Theophilus.

But hath not Ieſus Chriſt thorow y bloud of his teſtament, deliuered all the true Chriſtians from thoſe broken pits that wyll holde The lake without vvater. Zach. 9. c. 11 no water, euen as he hath brought the children of Iſraell from the bottome of their captiuitie and miſery, accordinge to the propheſie of Zachary? doſt thou thincke that Zachary hath lyed?

Hillarius.

Thou doeſt call me ſophiſter and ſlaunderer, but if thou finde that that I do ſay ſo ſtraunge, I would gladly knowe of thée out of what floud came the ſoule, which the fiſhermen of the Byſhop Tibaud dyd take in a net in ſteede of a fiſh?

Thomas.

Truely I now perceiue A ſoule taken in a net that thou doeſt mocke men too plainely.

Hillarius.

If I mocke, thou muſt then impute the fault to that great Doctour Barleta, of the order of the preaching Fryers, who hath written that goodly example, in his Sermon Barleta feri. 4 hebd. 4. quadr. de pe. purg. that he made of the paines of Purgatorye, and ſayde moreouer that the fiſher men dyd bring that net vnto the Byſhop, vnto whom the ſoule cryed: Praye for me in thy maſſes, to whom the Byſhop demaunded, what art thou? The Biſhop Tibaud. the ſoule aunſwered: I am a ſoule that haue accompliſhed héere my penaunce. And as ſoone as he had cauſed a trentall of Maſſes to be ſong for it, it was deliuered from hir paines. Now what doeſt thou thincke, how was that ſoule brought thether? I can coniecture none otherwiſe but that it did ſwim bpon the top of the water, as the Troutes, Salmons and Eles, & many othe fiſhes doo, which go againſt the ſwéet water, and do depart from the ſea and lakes, for to enter into the riuers. For I doubt not, but that there is ſtinckinge mudde, myre and durte in thoſe papiſticall lakes, and that the water is verye muche corrupted, ſalt and bytter, The papiſticall lakes and ondes. The luds of Paradiſe Eſa. 11. a. 3 Gene . 2. b. 10 wherefore I am not much eſtoniſhed, if that the ſoules haue ſuch great deſire to depart out of thoſe ſtincking Ceſterns, for to refreſh themſelues and to drawe of the water, in the ſountaines of our ſauiour Ieſus Chriſt, and in thoſe pleſaunt riuers and flouds of that delicious and pleaſaunt garden, wherein the golden age continueth for euer, and of that goodly Paradyſe, the whiche God hathe planted, The tree of life and in the myddeſt of which hée hath ſette the trée of life, for to make vs pertakers of his immortalitie. And as for mée, whatſoeuer Sophiſter thou call mée, yet I coulde not gyue better ſolucion to my queſtion: nor I knowe not whether in Sorbonne, one myght finde a more fitter. But leaſte thou ſhouldeſt not thincke that I doe ſpeake wythout authoritie, I wyll alledge vnto thée the wytneſſe Cic ro. Tuſe. q. li. 1 of the Poets, and the ſame of Cicero, who alledgeth that he fauoureth greatly the hiſtory of Barleta, and the expoſition that I haue made vppon the ſame. Marke then the A ſoule drawen from hell. horrible and ſharpe verſes, that thoſe ſoules which departed from hell did ſpeake, as ſome man hath tranſlated it into our tongue.

From the infernall lake I came, and griſly goulfe of hell, Where ſoules in fire & brimſtone plungd, in endleſſe tromēts dwell. Thus hauing paſſed Acheron that foule and ſtincking ſloud, And eke eſcaped Gerberus the dog that is ſo woode, Vpon the ſharpe rockes creepe I muſt, and doe by penaunce ſo, (Till time I haue ſulfilde the ſame) in pangs of paine and vvo.

Thou doeſt heare the language that the ſame ſoule did ſpeake, although that Cicero did mocke of thoſe fictions and of ſuch a heape of fooles, who demaunded a forme & ſhape of the ſoules, and did thincke that they did retourne. Upon which he ſaith: From thence by his accompt the lake of Auernus Aueruus is not farre off, from whence ſome do ſaye that the ſoules doe come in a blacke ſhadow, after that the gate of Acheron is opened: and that from thence came foorth the Images and figures of the dead men, with falſe bloude. Notwythſtandinge the ſame they woulde that thoſe Images and viſions ſhoulde ſpeake: the which they cannot doe, without a tongue, mouth and throate, or wythout ſtrength & figure of lyuer & ribs. And although they ſée nothing by apprehenſion of vnderſtāding they would y thoſe figures of the dead, ſhould be repreſented before their eies. Although y Cicero rebuked y opiniō of thoſe, yet neuertheleſſe they do not accord very euil wt y theology of your Doctours. Wherefore thou oughteſt to coutent thy ſelfe with my ſolution: or if thou wilt haue a better, propound the queſtion in Sorbonne, and if the Doctors cannot abſolue it, let them condemne the bookes of Barleta, and of other lyke dreamers, The forbidding of bookes. & forbid the Moonkes to reade their Sermons full of blaſphemy, rather then the holy Scriptures, and the bookes that they iudge to be full of hereſies, onely bycauſe that they doo contayne truth, and which condemne their abuſe.

Theophilus.

They will not doe ſo. For the other do cauſe The fluds of paradiſe. Pyſon. Geneſ. 2. b 10 the water to come better to their mil. Moſes witneſſeth that Pyſon, the one of the foure flouds of the terreſtryall Paradiſe, bringeth golde with his waues: But thoſe will haue nothing to doe with the flouds of Paradiſe, nor of the golde that they bringe, which is a great deale more precious then Fluds bringeth golde. that which they drawe from their internal flouds, ye which they preferre before thoſe, bicauſe of the greate riches and treaſures that they drawe there out.

Hillarius.

There is no Prince vpon the earth, whiche getteth or draweth ſo much out of the flouds nor mines, as Tagus. Pactolus. Ganges. Hebrus. Padus & Eridanus Orcus. they haue. That is none of the golde which Tagus the floud of Portingale bringeth with his ſandes: Or Pactolus of Lydia: Or Ganges of India: Or Hebrus of Thracia: Or Padus of Italy: Or Orcus, whiche is in the country of Taurine in Piedmont. All the golde that thoſe flouds haue is nothing in compariſō of that that they catch in their internall floudes: which cauſe the whéeles of their Mill to turne about very well. In very déede they haue an Orcus which is more fertile in golde then that of Piedmont. And ye name Eurotos & Peneus. 4. ca. 8 Plin. li. 4 ca. 8 P neus accipii amnem Eurotō nec recipit, ſed olei mod ſuper natatem breui ſpaicio portatū agréeth with it very well. For Orcus ſignifieth hell, from whence thoſe flouds ariſe, whiche cannot ioyne themſelues with thoſe flouds of the terreſtryall Paradiſe, no more then Eurotos with Peneus, that goodly floude of Theſſaly, which cannot abide nor ſuffer that the execrable waters of that ſtincking floud, engendred wyth paines and torments, ſhould be mingled wyth his ſiluer flouds: But they muſt ſwimme aboue him, as Oyle, and after ye he hath carryed him a little, he driueth him farre from him.

Theophilus.

Thoſe héere would as well mingle the waters abdicat penales aquas, diriſ que genitas argenteis ſuis miſcere recuſans. of their ſtincking Ceſterns, with the water of life: But it agréeth not together. For Ieſus Chriſte cannot abide nor ſuffer that, but caſteth it farre from him. Wherfore I doubt verye much, that as he hath already kindled his fire, which hath burned Purgatory, that he will alſo repulſe thoſe riuers and lakes, and that he will cauſe them that they ſhall The floude of Chriſt not ſwell ouer as a flud doth his waters, for to quench and put out that little fire which ſhall be there left.

Hillarius.

they ought a great deale more to feare that flud, then the drowning and ouerflowing of Tiber, whiche The ouerflowing of Tyber. was like to haue drowned Rome. For when it runneth ouer, it will carry away both the caſtle of Sainct Ange, the Pope and his Popedome and all the Romiſh Babilon. Wherefore it is no meruaile though they feare thoſe euangelicall The floud Nylus and the fertility of Aegipt Strab. Geor. li. vlti. Solin. ca. 45. Seneca li. 4. natu. quae. Luc. Phar. 10 Plin. in panegy ad Traia. Plin. natu. hiſt li. 5. ca. 9 Nilometres. Diodo. ſicu. li. 1 Tibul. li. 1. ad Nilum. Te propter nul los tellus tua poſtulat imbres Arida nec pluuio ſupplicat herba loui. Claudia. in con ſu. Theo. Lene ſluit. Nilus, ſed cūctis amnsbus extat vtilior. waters, and endeuour themſelues to keepe their filthy internall puddles, and infectious and ſtincking welles. For that is all the force and riches of their kingdome. The flud Nilus which ouerfloweth the land of Aegypt, & which maketh their fields fruitful and fat, and bringeth vnto them great aboundance and increaſe of wheate and other corne by the mudde, filth, fat ground, dunge and fatneſſe that it bringeth with it, is not ſo fertile nor profitable vnto ye Aegyptians, which inhabit in the land of Aegypt, as vnto vs new Aegyptians. Wherefore if the Aegyptians take ſuch paine about their flud Nilus, and haue their Nilometres, that is to ſay, the meſurers of ye flud Nilus, which haue ye charge to meaſure it, for to know whether it encreaſe much or little, we muſt not be eſtoniſhed, if thoſe heere doe ſo trauayle after theirs.

Thomas.

Wherefore doe they that?

Hillarius.

Bicauſe that if that Nilus do not encreaſe but twelue cubytes, then they haue the famine in Aegypt: bycauſe that if all their groundes are not watred and moyſted through the ouerflowinge of the ſame, thoſe whiche are not couered are as the ſande, and wyll brynge foorth no fruite. For it rayneth not in Summer, and all their felicitie and riches, dependeth vpon Nilus. As Moſes declared Deutat. bae vnto the Iſraelites, comparinge Aegypt vnto the lande of Canaan. If the floud Nilus ariſe vppe xiif. cubites, yet there ſhall be tamiſhment in Aegypt. If it encreaſe xiiif. cubites, it bringeth ioye: if xv. it bringeth aſſuredneſſe: if it encreaſe xvf. cubites, it bringeth delightes and pleaſures. For they haue ſuch ſtore and aboundaunce of corue and other goodes, that all is plentifull. On the contrarye, if it Palaemon ex Diony. Non alius tantum fluutorum ditat arenas. At que trahens limum complec titur vbere cā pos. encreaſe aboue meaſure, they cannot ſowe, bicauſe that the water tarryeth ſo longe that the earth wyll not bée drye to bée tylled: But when it encreaſeth by meaſure, they make greate chéere, takynge care for nothinge, and therefore they haue thoſe Nilometres whiche meaſure the hyght and depth of thoſe waters, and if they knowe that it aryſeth not hygh ynoughe, for to water all the earthe, they make it to be knowen through out all the Townes and Cyties, afterwardes euery one maketh dykes and The floud Nilus of the Pope. trenches for to make it the eaſier to runne all abrode. If they knowe to the contrary, that it wyll ſwell and ryſe vp to hye, and that throughe hys greate aboundaunce of hys waters it wyll let and hynder to ſowe and tyll the earth, they make greate rampers and walles rounde aboute it for to kéepe it in, and to cauſe it to runne more ſlowelye. Nowe therefore doubte not, but that our Aegyptians are as wyſe in their generations, and that they knowe as well that practiſe, for to prouide and foreſee to theire Niles and flouddes, whiche cauſe the water to come to theire Milles, from which all their fertilities and ryches do procéede, and wyth which they fiſhe and catche the goulde, of which yet neuertheleſſe they can neuer be ſatiſfied. For Charibdis. they are as a goulfe of the ſea, in which theſe ryuers dooe emptie themſelues, & yet they can neuer fill the ſea. Theſe The dykes of ye fortreſſes of the Papiſts. are the dikes of their caſtles & Lordſhips wherin doth conſiſt all their fortreſſe, of which none can approch nigh vnto thē, wythout béeing fore afraide & in great daunger of killing & drowning. For thoſe ye wyll approch as enemyes, for to aſſalt them, ſhal finde thoſe flouds altogether ull of ſulfure & fire, & more whotter & burning then ye internal floud Phlegetō. Thoſe which do paſſe ouer thē, for to yeelde themſelues vnto thē, ſhal finde thēſelues more miſerable & vnhappy. For firſt of al they muſt paſſe ye floud Lethe, which ſignifieth To paſſe the floude Lethe. To forget God. obliuion: bicauſe that it is neceſſarye, that thoſe which giue themſelues vnto them for to drinike of the ſtincking water of their doctrin & traditions, forget God & his word, & Eſa 29. d. 13. Mat. 15. a. 8 ſerue him in vayn. Wherfore frō thece they muſt come vnto Acheron, which cauſeth all thoſe that paſſe ouer it to loſe all their ioye and myrth. For ſith that the kingdome of God is A cl. cron righteouſneſſe, peace, and ioye in the holy Ghoſt, what peace The kingdome of God. Rom. 14 c. 17. & ioye can thoſe haue who haue forgotten and forſaken God, the fountaine of the water of life, & the ſea of all goodneſſe, for to come & drincke of thoſe muddye and ſtincking Iere. 2. c. 13. welles that wyll holde no water? Sith that then in that Acheron, one ſhal loſe all ioy & mirth, they muſt of neceſſitie come vnto the other flouddes, to wyt, Stix, which ſignifteth Styx Cocytus Phlegeton Ihon. 14. d. 16 The holy ghoſt is called ye comforter. Claudiut. Foelix qui phaitas preſcindit vomere terras. Nubila non ſpe rat tenebris cō dentia coelum Nec grauiter ſlantes pluuiali frigore Coros. Inuocat, aut arcum varlota luce rubentem Aegyptus ſiue aube ferax inbreſ que ſerenos. Sola tenet ſo cu ra poli, non indiga venti. ſorrowfulneſſe, & to Cocytus which ſignifieth mourning: and vnto Phlegeton which ſignifieth heate and burning. For ſith that the holy Ghoſt is called the comforter: ioye nor conſolation cannot bée but there where hée is, and where he hath ſhed abroade the waters and droppes of his grace. And therefore who can haue his conſcience which is depriued frō that comforter. but ſorrowfull & ful of perpetual mourning? What greater heat & burning can ther be in hel, then is in the conſciences of thoſe which haue abā doned Chriſt, for to ſerue Antechriſt, & for to follow his doctrine & traditions? For that is a very hell vnto the conſcyence: and it is not poſſible that thoſe which are addicted and giuen vnto his ſeruice, can euer be refeſhed & filled. For that Aegypt is not watred nor ſprinkled with ye dewes & flouds of heauen, no more then ye other Aegypt wc the water from heauen in ſommer: & hath nothing in it but theſe filthineſſe & puddels, ye which it doth eſtéeme more then ye goodly faire & cleere water: it preferreth it ſelfe vnto the lande of Canaan, the whiche yet neuertheleſſe Moſes eſtéemed more then that of Aegypt: ſayinge vnto the Iſraelites: The lande whether thou goeſt to poſſeſſe it, is not as the Gaudet aquis quas ipſae vehit Nilo que redundat. lande of Aegypt whence thou cameſt out, where thou ſowedſt thy ſeede: And wateredſt it with thy féete as a garden of hearbes: But the lande whether ye goe ouer to poſſeſſe, it is a lande of hyls and valleys, and drincketh water of the raine of heauen. They had rather wyth great trauaile torment themſelues after and aboute thoſe maryſſes and lowe groundes, then to attend and receyue the bleſſing from heauen. And therefore they can neuer finde reſt nor conſolation in their conſciences, but abide alwayes in doubt, perpleritie, trouble and anguiſh.

Theophilus.

That is the very ſame that they deſire. For Antechriſte hath his fiſhers, altogether differinge and contrary vnto thoſe of Ieſus Chriſt, who deſire not but troubled waters, bicauſe that then their fiſhing is a great deale Deu. 11. b. 10 To fish in the troubled water The fishers of Ieſus Chriſt & of Antechriſt. Mat. 4. d. 19. Luc. 5. c. 10. better. Ieſus Chriſt ſaid vnto his Apoſtles, and Diſciples: I will make you fiſhers of men: Bicauſe that hée woulde ſende them, for to drawe men, by the nets and cordes of the preaching of the Goſpel, out and from the ſea of this world, and from the goulfes of ſinne, death and hell, for to leade them vnto the port of health & ſafetie, and vnto Ieſus Chriſt their Sauiour. The other fiſher men take fiſhes for to kill and eat them. But theſe are ſent for to retire & pluck back men from death vnto life, and from the perils and daūgers of the ſea and goulfes of hell, for to lead, preſent and bring them all aliue vnto Ieſus Chriſt. On the contrarye, Antechriſt Fishers of gold and ſiluer. Sub anulo piſca torto. hath his Apoſtles and fiſhers, not of men, but of golde and of ſiluer: or if they do catch men, that is after the manner and ſorte as the fiſhers catch the fiſhes for to kill, eate & ſell them.

Hillarius.

If they be not fiſhers of men, they are fiſhers of ſoules. Wherfore I would coūſaile them, ſith Fishers of ſoules. that they know to take them in their nets as fiſhes, that in ſléede of their maſſes, vigilles and ſuffrages, they woulde buy fiſhe lepes, nettes and hookes for to catche and fiſh for ſoules.

Theophilus.

They haue no néede of thy counſaile. For they haue bene prouided of ſuch inſtrumentes longe agone, that if it be poſſible there ſhal not one ſoule eſcape, but that it ſhalbe intrapped and caught in their nettes, which they haue layd forth on euery ſide. What other thing are all The nets of the Prieſtes. their prayers for the dead, their Idoles and ceremonies, but bytings, Hookes, Nettes and engyns, for to catche and take men, as the Fiſſhers take the Fiſſhes? or the Spiders the little Flyes with their copwebbes?

Hillarius.

Therfore it is very neceſſarie for them to haue a great many of Nilomitres & ſeruants, for to take good héede to their riuers, ſith ye there are ſo many Fiſhers, & whiche haue ſo many nets & engyns. For it is to be feared greatly, ye if their Nile and their bloudy waters of Aegypt ſhould ouerflowe, ariſe The vvaters of Aegypt. and ſwell to much, that it woulde quenche and put out the fire, that they kéepe yet in their Purgatory, aſwell as the ouer great fire that they made there, hath burned the walles and chambers that were there, and leaſt the ſame ſhould hinder and let their ſowings and reapings in harueſt. On the contrary, if thoſe fluddes decreaſe and dry vp, it is greatly to be feared, but that they will bringe dearth and famine, for many cauſes and reaſons. For merchants nor merchandiſe cannot come no more vnto them. Afterwardes it is to be feared, leaſt the Iſraelites whome they To go out of Aegypt Exo. 14. c. 21 The taking of Babilon. Cirus & Darius hold in captiuitie in Aegypt, ſhall eſcape them, if God dryeth vp the red Sea, for to giue iſſue and paſſage vnto his people: or leaſt their Babilon ſhould be taken, as Cirus and Darius tooke ye of the Chaldeans, after that they had founde the meanes to turne the riuer Euphrates, which entred into Euphrates. Pli. li. 3 ca. 14. Solin. ca. 50. Xenoph. in Cir. hiſt. li. 1. in cho the ſame, for to giue free paſſage vnto their ſouldiers & hoſte of men: the which they placed within Babilon, there where the courſe of the water was, and did take it in the night, whileſt that the king Balthazer with his Princes, curtiſans and concubines did banquet & make good chere, Daniel. 5. ſ. 23 and celebrated the feaſt of his gods.

Theophilus.

They may well repayre theyr dykes, and Ioſeph. lib. 10 ca. 13 forteāe themſelues aſmuch as they can: But yet neuertheleſſe they ſhall take them neuer the ſooner. For it is neceſſary yt the prophecie which Eſay prophecyed againſt the Aegyptians be accomplyſhed vppon them, and vppon all The Prophecie againſt the Aegyptians. their Fiſhers, and vppon thoſe which lyue about their riuers, and which make ye inſtruments of Idolatry & ſuperſticion.

Hillarius.

What is that Prophecie?

Theophilus.

Giue eare, and you ſhall ſee whether it agréeth not well to our matter. The water of the Sea (ſayth hée) ſhall bée drawne out, Nilus ſhall ſinke away, and be dronken vp.

The riuers alſo ſhall be drawen out, and the wells ſhal decreace Eſa. 19 2. 5. and dry away. Réede and Ruſh ſhall fayle, the graſſe by the waters ſide or vppon the riuers banke, yea, The fiſshers for ſaken. and whatſoeuer is ſowen by the waters, ſhall be wythered, deſtroyed and brought to nought. The fiſſhers ſhall mourne, all ſuch as caſt angels in the water ſhall complayn and they that ſpred their nettes in the water ſhalbe faynt hearted. Such as labour vpon Flare and Silke, ſhal come to pouertie, and they alſo that weaue fine workes. And all thoſe which doe make pondes and ſtewes for the lyuing ſoules ſhall be ſorrowfull for their nettes.

Hillarius.

It is not poſſible, to finde out a prophecie which better agreeth with them. For this heere maketh mention of waters, of Fiſſhers of Flare workers, of makers of nettes, of makers of pondes and ſtewes, in which they doe keepe and holde faſt the lyuing ſoules, as the fiſſhers doe keepe their fiſhes in their ſtewes and fiſh pents. It maketh alſo mention of their inſtruments & of the workemen that make them, ye they feare nothing leſſe leaſt that the preaching of the Goſpell ſhould drye vp thoſe riuers, as Demetrius & thoſe of his ſect greatly feared, ye thorow Demetrius. Act. 19 ſ. 14 Diana the goddeſſe of the Epheſians. the preaching of Paul, the honour of Diana the great goddeſſe of the Epheſians ſhould be diminiſhed, & their gayne with hir. Therefore they are not to be blamed although they loke to it ſo diligently. It in more then time that the vertue of God doth ſhew foorth it ſelf, for to deliuer his poore people, from the handes of ſo many fiſhers which plunge & drown ſo many poore ſoules through their lakes & puddles. Thoſe are terimen & marrincrs which do drowne all thoſe Daungerous Mart ers which enter into their boates & ſhips. For they haue not Ieſus Chriſte with them, which cauſeth the windes & tempeſts Mat. 8. c. 2 Mar. 14. d. 32 Iohn. 3. b. 19 to be calme & to ceaſe, & which cauſeth alwaies a ſafe landing and port.

Theophilus.

And therefore it ſhoulde be more reaſonable that we ſhould cry after him as ye Apoſtles Prayer for the lyuing. did, ſaying: Lord ſaue vs: & that we ſhould make our prayer vnto God, that he would deliuer vs from that déepe take, & al thoſe that be aliue, then to ſing for the dead. For if Dauid & the other ſeruauntes of God did complaine themſelues to haue bene drowned in the lakes of tribulation and myſery, The vvater of tribulation. Pſa 2 . c. 21 Pſa . 6. e. 23 Eſa. 8. h 8 Sennacharib. & that the waters haue enuironed & couered them ouer the head, wée haue no leſſe occaſſon to complayne. Eſay deſiring to ſignifie the miſery & tribulation which ſhould come vnto Hieruſalem and to all the lande of Iuda by the army of Sennacherib, ſayth that ſhe ſhall be enuironed wyth waters vp to the throate: And vſeth ſuch compariſon for to let them to vnderſtand that the ſame army ſhal deſtroy and couer all the land, euen as Euphrates did couer and deſtroy Euphrates. Strab. li. 16 Proc. li. 1. Perſ. bel. Eſa. 36. cap. 4. Reg. 18. and 19. cap. that lande of Aſſyria, when it ouerflowed: making compariſon by the ſouldiers & hoſt vnto ye riuer, bicauſe that both the one and the other doe paſſe through one lande. But Hieruſalem was neuer ſo afflicted nor oppreſſed by the vyolent waues of the armye of the Aſſyrians, as the poore Church is troden downe and oppreſſed by that great Romiſh Sennacherib and his army, whiche is innumerable The Romish Sennacherib. throughout all the whole worlde, as the ſande of the ſea. But we haue ſpoken inough of the Lake: It reſteth now to abſolue the doubte which I haue alreadye begun. Foraſmuch (friende Euſebius) as you ſay, that that hell and déepe lake, of which mencion is made of it in ye affertory for the dead, is taken for purgatory, what doth y ſignifie which is ſpoken off afterwards: Deliuer thē from ye lyons mouth, leaſt that hell do not deuour them: I beleeue ye they vnderſtand by ye Lyon none other but the Dyuel, who as S. Peter The deuouring Lyon. 1. Pet. 5. b. e witneſſeth is our enemy, & walketh about ſéeking whom he may deuour. But ſith ye the ſoule is ſeparated from ye body, how can it be deliuered frō ye mouth of y roring & denouring lyon, if ye ſoule be of a reprobate, which dieth out of y ſaith of Chriſt, who ſhal deliuer it from his throte, when God hath giuen it him? And if it be of a faithfull man, Ieſus Chriſte who is the ſtrong and inuincible Lion, of the tribe of Iuda The Lyon of ye tribe of Iuda, Apoc. 5. b. 5 who hath had the victory ouer that Lion which is aduerſary and enemy vnto God, hath he not already deliuered it? hath not he killed and prohibited the mouth of that Sampſon and Dauid. Iudg. 14. a. 5. 1. Sam. 17 c. 35 hungry Lion, as a true Sampſon and Dauid, in ſuch ſorte that he hath no more teeth nor fanges, for to deuoure the childen of God whom the Lord Ieſus holdeth, as the Lyon his pray, to whome none dareth to come nigh, as Eſay Eſa. 31. b. 4 hath written, that the Lord kéepeth Hieruſalem and his elect people. Alſo I thinke it not much vnméete if we make ſuch prayer for thoſe that be a liue, the which Ieſus Chriſt hath taught vs to pray and ſay: And lead vs not into temptation, Mat. 6. b. 13 Luc. 11. a. 2 but deliuer vs from euill. And hee him ſelfe hath made the prayer vnto God his Father, for his diſcyples, as Iohn. 17 b. 9 witneſſeth Sainct Iohn. He ſaith not, I pray thee that thou wouldeſt deliuer them from euill after this life: nor ſaith, I pray not, that thou wouldeſt take them out of ye world? 1. Pet. 5. b. 8 but that thou wouldeſt kéepe them from all euill. Alſo S. Peter doeth not exhort vs to abſtaine from meates, to bée ſober, watche and pray, and to arme vs with faith againſte that roaring Lion, for thoſe that be dead, but for our ſelues Repugnaunce of doctrine whileſt that we be a liue, to the ende we may auoyd his mouth, for to come vnto that holy light which he hath promiſed vnto Abraham and vnto his ſeede. For according to your doctrine, ſith that the ſoule is ſeperated from the body, if man hath not had here remiſſion of his ſinnes before his death, he cannot haue it after. And if he haue it in this life, he goeth either into Paradiſe or into Purgatory. If he be in Paradiſe, it is no more to bee feared that hell can ſwallow him vp. If he bée in Purgatory, although that according to your opinion, he be in paynes, yet neuertheleſſe you confeſſe that he is paſt the danger of damnation, and that he is ſure of his ſaluation. Wherefore I vnderſtand not, howe that prayer can agrée with the worde of God, and the doctrine of the auncient doctors, & your owne For you ſpeake againſt your ſelfe. If that prayer doth profit The Papiſticall doctrine is vncertaine. the ſoules of the dead in the other life, it muſt then bée, that ther is yet great hope, either to merit or not to merit, and a place to do good or euill, as in this mortal life, and to be damned or ſaued.

Euſebius.

There is great difference. For in this life man may merit or not merit of him ſelfe: But after he is dead he can do no more for him ſelfe, but others may do it for him? And the merites of thoſe that bee alyue doe ſerue him to ſaluation.

Theophilus.

And ſo by that meanes, Ieſus Chriſte ſhalbe a Sauiour neither of the lyuing nor of the dead: & the merite of his death and paſſion, ſhall ſaue neither the one nor the other, but the lyuing ſhall ſaue themſelues, during their life? and after their death, others that ſhalbe thē alyue, ſhal ſaue them eſpecially the Prieſtes and Moonks, By that meanes, we haue many ſauiours, and men ſhould neuer be certaine nor ſure of their ſaluation, neither before their death nor afterwards, whiche is a thing altogether contrarie to the doctrine of the ſcriptures.

Euſebius.

And if I would maintaine, that thoſe which are in hell, can be ſomewhat deliuered from the pains theroff, eyther by the prayers and good déedes of the liuing, or Deleyueraunce from hell bicauſe of the good deedes that they themſelues haue done during their life, that ſhould be a ſtrange thing vnto thée. What wouldeſt thou aunſwere to that? Haue wee not the witnes of a great many hiſtories and good doctours, worthy to be beleeued, which certefie vs, how that Sainct Gregory deliuered Traianus the Emperour from the paines Traianus delyuered from hell of hell, who notwithſtanding did put to death many of the Chriſtians, and namely Sainct Ignacius the diſcyple of S. Iohn Saint Ignatius lo. Maio. 4. ſent diſt. 45. quae. Saint Machayr Saint Brandun. Alruſ. in fine ſui 4. Iudas out of hell. the Euangeliſt. It is in like manner written in the life of the fathers, that Sainct Machaire deliuered a prieſt being a Panim, who affirmed vnto him that he was damned. And in the life of ſainct Brandon we read that hee did ſée Iudas, which walked by the meadowes, of whom he aſked the cauſe, wherefore he was not in hell: who aunſwered him bicauſe of the good deedes that he did in his life time, he had therefore ſome ſolace and comfort.

Theophilus

If Thou canſt no better confirme my ſentence, nor better proue that your doctrine is altogether vncerteine, variable, inconſtant and gameſayinge it ſelfe. For haſt thou not alreadie confeſſed vnto me, that the prieſtes do not praye for the dampned, bicauſe that there is no deliuerance from hell, and from the fire of hell? Conſider I pray thée, how that agreeth with thoſe goodly fables, & with that which thou meaneſt now to ſpeake off. Diuers opiniōs of the deliuerance of Traianus Tho. in 4. diſt. 1. 3. Argu. 2 10. Maio. 4. ſent diſt. 45. qua. 1. Barl. ſer. 3. Hab. 4. ſermo de pen. inſer.

Euſebius.

If you had read diligently the bookes of the good auncient doctors, and eſpecially of Saint Thomas, you might eaſely make all theſe places agrée. For they do alledge foure opinions & reaſons for to ſatiſfie ſuche doubts. The firſt is, that Traianus was rayſed thorow the prayers of Sainct Gregory, and that he dath done penance in this life, thorowe the which he meryted grace and pardon of his ſinnes. Wherefore he is dead in the grace of God, and hath bene ſaued, and this is the beſt allowed opinion of ye doctors. The ſecond is, that the ſoule of Traianus was not ſimplye deliuered from the paine and fault thereof, but that his paine was ſuſpended and delayed, vntill the daye of iudgement, and afterwardes ſhalbe ſaued. The thyrd opinion is that Gregory deliuered him, not from the place of hell, but from the paine. The fourth, which is alſo beſt allowed among all the other, that the ſoule of Traianus was deliuered from the paines of hell, and hath obtayned mercie thorow the prayers of Sainct Gregory: the which thing was done, not after the common law, but after the diſpoſition and diſpenſation of the wiſdome and prouidence of God, who did foreſee that Sainct Gregory ſhould pray for him. Wherefore it hath not dampned it by or through diffinitiue ſentence, but by a ſentence ſuſpenciue: The which thing hath bene a perticuler priuiledge. For Sainct Hierome ſaith, that the priuiledges are but for a Priuiledges. fewe people, and not for all. For the priuiledges of a fewe are not lawes common to all: And the things which go out of ſquare from the common lawe, ought not to bee drawen into a conſequence.

Hillarius.

I thinke that that is the priuiledge whiche Extra derog. ſur. li. 6 is written in the Aeneados of Virgill, the which Cyble recited, ſpeaking to Aeneas after this manner.

Then prophet Cyble ſaid, O borne of bloud of heauenly kind, Thou Troyan Duke, the way that leads to hell is light to finde. Virg. Aenci. 6. Both nights and dayes, the doore of Limbo blacke doth open gape, But backward vp to climbe, and free to Skies eſt ſoones to ſcape. Their woorkes, their labour is few men whom equall loue did loue, Our vertue pearcing all, did to the ſtarres aduaunce aboue.

Beholde the priuiledge of that good doctor, whiche peraduenture Iupiter, in whom Traianus did beléeue, granted vnto him.

Theophilus.

I do greatly meruayle, both of Thomas of Aquin, and of other queſtionarie doctors, whiche haue taken ſuche great paines for to couler and ſet foorth a fable. It muſt be that they haue had very much leaſure, and that they were not muche occupied about other better affaires. They would ſooner haue giuen a more true and certeine ſolution, if they had by and by anſwered, that they receiued not ſuch fables: as ſome of their owne ſecte haue done, namely our maiſter Iohn Maioris the Scotte, the whiche I haue heretofore heard reade in the Colledge of Our maſter Iohn Maioris 4. ſent. diſt. 45 q. 1. Mountaigu. Hee reiecteth without making anye doubt, both the hiſtory of Sainct Machaire, and alſo that of S. Brandon. As touching that ſame of Traians, although that he alledge the common ſolutions of other doctors: yet neuertheleſſe he firſt doth aunſwer, that he knoweth not from whence that hiſtory had his firſt beginning: the which hath no certaine author: not withſtanding that ſome doe attribute it vnto Iohn Damaſcenus. But how ſhoulde hee haue The Author of the hiſtory of Traianus Damaſcenus. Supple. chro. Bergons. li. 9. written it, ſith that according to their owne witneſſes and chronicles, he raigned long time before that ſaint Gregory lyued, and was dead before that Sainct Gregory was borne. For their chronicles do witnes, that Damaſcenus floriſhed in the years of our Lord 440. And that he was very familier with the Emperour Theodoſius. The which yet neuertheleſſe I beléeue not: For by that account, he had lyued in the time of Sainct Ambroſe, & neuertheleſſe there is great differēce betweene his bookes and theſe of Sainct Ambroſe. For theſe of Sainct Ambroſe are a great deale latin in vit. Celeſt 1 The time of Gregory. Bergo. li. 10 purer, & keepe a great deale better the puritie of yt aunciēt church. But peraduenture they meane the young Theodoſeus, which rayned after Honorius. Although that it be ſo, by their owne Chronicles, he was before the time of Gregory, about 152. yeares. For they do write that Gregory reigned in the yeare. 592.

Hillarius.

It muſt néeds be then, that either the Chronicles are falſe, or ye witnes of thoſe ye do make Damaſcenus the author of that fable: Except peraduenture they will ſay that thorow the ſpirite of prophecie, he hath foreſhewed that deliuerance, which Gregory ought to doe, touching the ſoule of Traianus.

Theophilus.

I knowe not what their prophecies are, but I neuer in all my lyfe did ſée nor heare a thing wherin was leſſe reaſon, aſſurance & incerteinly, then in that papiſticall doctrine. For it conſiſteth but in mane opinions. But how do thoſe fables agrée with that that they themſelues Maio. 4. ſent. diſt. 45. q. 1. Berl. ſermo. de pen. inſe alledge of Sainct Auguſtine, who by their owne witneſſes ſhould ſay: If I did know that my Father were in hell, I would pray no more for him then for the diuell. Wherefore then haue S. Gregory and S. Machair prayed for the dampned? And when the Prieſtes do pray vnto Ne abſorbeat. eas Tartarus: ne cadant in obſura. Ieſus Chriſt that he deliuer the ſoules, leaſt that hel ſhould deuoure them and that they ſhould not fall into the darke and obſcure places, in what place doe they vnderſtande that the ſoules, for whom they make that requeſt, ought The place of ye Papiſticall ſoules. The fall of the ſoules. to bee? Sith that they make requeſt that hell do not deuour them, they do then vnderſtand and meane, that they are not in hell. But when they admoreouer, that they fall not into the darke and tenebrous places, they declare therby, that they ought to be in a place, from which they may not fall. Now, what is that place? Is it Paradiſe?

Euſebius.

No Paradiſe. verely. For thoſe that are there, are alreadye all aſſured, that they ſhall neuer fall.

Theophilus.

No, except you are of that opinion that the ſoules may yet ſinne in Paradiſe, as the Angelles and Adam, in the terreſtriall Paradiſe, The fall of Angels & of man. Geneſ. 3. d. 24. 2. Pet. 2. a. 4. and that God did throwe them headlonge into hell, as the wicked Angelles: or that he dyd driue them out of Paradiſe, as Adam. But I beléeue thou art not of that opinion, friende Euſebius, for thou ſhouldeſt ſpeake againſt all the good auncient Doctours, and the doctrine of the catholike Church, who doe preferre the worke of mannes redemption, to the ſame of his creation, in that that man hath bene ſo created of God, that he could ſinne: But he hath after ſuch ſort redéemed it, that his elect can neuer periſh nor ſinne after they be in Paradiſe.

Euſebius.

It is very true.

Theophilus.

In what place then are thoſe ſoules? Thou wylt not ſaye that they are The Limbe. in the Limbe? For according to your owne doctrine that ſame of the fathers is emptie, and as touching the other there goeth none thether but the little children that bée borne dead, for whom you doe no more praye, then for the dampned? For you hope no more that they can come out from thence, 〈◊〉 more thē tho dampned can come from hel. Wherefore there reſteth no more but Purgatory. Nowe Purgatory if thoſe ſoules are in Purgatorye, it muſte bée that they haue ſome ſolace, and ſome lyght, as in Paradiſe: or otherwiſe, wherefore doe they praye, that thoſe ſoules doe not fall into the obſcure and darke places, if they be there already? We will yet come againe vnto my firſt matter: and thou ſhalt be compelled to confeſſe that Paradiſe and Purgatory is all one thing: Or that you doe praye for the Saints and Saintes of Paradiſe, and for thoſe which are at reſt: or at the leaſtwiſe, that the ſoules which are already tormented in Purgatory, maye yet fall more déeper into hell & y darke places. And ſo by that reaſon, they are yet in daunger of dampnation, which is contrarye to your own doctrine.

Hillarius.

I am greatly eſtoniſhed, friēd Theophilus, what reaſon you can finde out of all reaſon: and what certeintie you ſearch, beſides the woord of God, which is onely certayne? What foundation ſhall you finde in dreames? For all that that they ſaye and do touching the dead, and all their doctrine, what other thing is it but dreames and lyinges? which haue neither ſpiryte nor iudgement. Is not that a Theology altogether come of the Panims? for of all thoſe thinges haue they learned any one ſillable of Ieſus Chriſt? Wherfore, I would, ſith that they will not followe but their owne fantaſie, the opinions of men, and of the Idolaters, and that they haue no regarde of the holy Scriptures, that they would not at the leaſtwiſe onely followe the euyll, but alſo the Three kinds of righteouſneſſe after Plato. good, that they haue taught. Plato that great and worthy Philoſopher, hath ſet foorth thrée kindes of righteouſneſſe: The one towardes God: an other towardes men, and the thirde towards the dead. But theſe heere doo neither regard God nor men ye be aliue, but haue conuerted all their care vpon the dead: not for the loue of them, but for the loue of themſelues. Wherefore you muſte not thincke, that they haue done this, for any zeale of righteouſneſſe for to render vnto them their duetie.

Theophilus.

I deſire gladlye, that they and all the Chriſtians, woulde acquite them in ſuche ſorte that one may ſay that whiche the Scripture witneſſeth of Ruth Ruth and Booz Ruth. 2. d. 20 and of Booz, and to gyue vnto them ſuch prayſe. For it wytneſſeth, that they haue ſhewed mercy on the dead. Works of mercy towardes the dead.

But how? was it in beſtowing their goodes to bury them pompeouſly and making a greate many of Ceremonyes about their buryall? They haue not learned to doe ſo by Auguſt. de ciui dei li. 1. ca. 12. 13. que. 2. c ani ma. 4. ſent. diſt. 45 c. de pompit. The profite of the buriall. the worde of God. For as Sainct Auguſtine ſayth, alſo it is written in the decrées themſelues, and in the Maiſter of the ſentences. That all theſe things, to wit, the trauaile and labour that they beſtowe vpon the funerals, the beautifying of their buryall, the pompe of the exequics and buryals, are more to comfort thoſe that be aliue, then for to ayde the dead. If the precious and coſtly buryall profiteth Virgil. Facilis iactura ſepulera. any thing the wicked, the vile and contemptible buryall ſhall hurt the good, or if he doe remayne vnburyed. That rich man of whom Ieſus Chriſt ſpeaketh off, had Compariſon of the rich and of Lazarus. Luc. 16. c. 19 a great number of ſeruants, and courtiſans clothed in purple, and ſumptuous apparaile, who made for him moſte excellent funerals, and buryed hym very coſtly to al mens ſight: But the Miniſtering of the Angells made a greate Luca. li. 9. phraſ. aternus animā colligit in orbes. Non illue auro poſiti nec thure ſepults perueniunt. deale more noble before the face of the Lorde that of the poore begger, whome they carried not to bée buryed: But carryed it into Abrahams boſome. Beholde the wordes of S. Auguſtine, who declareth vnto vs that we muſt not diſpiſe the dead bodyes, and denie vnto them their buryall, for to teſtifie and witneſſe the hope that wée haue of the reſurrection, and that we ſhould eſtéeme them no leſſe then a ring or a badge which they haue left vnto vs, the which we would gladly hide and kepe for the loue of them. Alſo we ought not to thincke, that the faythfull can be in nothing of leſſe ſtrength, and to receiue any hurte before God, when they abide vnburyed, as it oftentimes chauuſed, as it is written: The dead bodyes of thy ſeruaunts Pſa. 79. a. 2 Luca. li. 6 pharſ. Nihil agis hac tra, tales ne cadauera ſaluat. An rogus haud reſert. Placido natura receptat. Cuncta ſuni & poſt capit omnia tellus. 〈◊〉 Quae genuit coelo igitur qui non habet vinā haue they giuen vnto ye ſoules of the Aire to be deuoured: and the fleſh of thy Saincts vnto the beaſtes of the land. Their bloude haue they ſhed lyke water on euerye ſide of Hieruſalem, and there was no man to bury them. But yet neuertheleſſe although that thoſe things ſéeme to be hard & cruell yet notwithſtandinge before the face of the Lorde, the death of his Saincts are precious The Panims themſelues that haue had any vnderſtanding were not muche carefull of the buryall: although that many ſuperſtitious Idolaters haue thought that it bringeth greate hurt, vnto thoſe that haue not bene buryed. Now euen as the coſt which is done about the dead bodyes for their buryalles profiteth leſſe vnto them, then to anye other: As muche may we thinke & iudge of all the ſuffrages and coſt that is done for them after their death and buriall, as Saincte Auguſtine doth playnelye declare, vppon thys place of the Plalmes. They call their landes after theyr owne Auguſt in pſal 94. cone. 1. The benquettee for the dead. names. What is that? They bringe (ſaith hée,) breads and wine vnto the graues and call it there the name of the dead. How much or how often doſt thou thincke, that the name of that rich man hath bene called vppon afterwardes, when men were dronken in remembringe him, and one droppe of colde water dyd not diſcende to quench his hot tongue? Men doe ſerue their bellye, and not the ſoules of their parentes and friendes. There commeth nothing vnto the ſoules of their deade, but that whiche they haue done wyth them being alyue. But if béeinge To do good during our lyfe. alyue, they haue done nothing wyth them, there commeth nothing vnto the dead. What reproch had the men which vnderſtoode not what they ſhould doe wyth their ryches, when they lyued, and which dyd thincke that they ſhould bée bleſſed, if they had a memoriall in a Tombe of marble ſtone, as an eternall houſe: or if their parents & friends, vnto whom they ſhall leaue their goods, do call their lands after their names: But on the contrary, they ought to prepare for themſelues an euerlaſting houſe, in good workes. They ought to prepare for themſelues the immortall life, Preparation for the departure out of this lyfe. to ſend ye coſt & charges before them, to follow their works to haue good regard of their néedy cōpaignion, to giue vnto him with whom they do walke, not to diſpiſe Ieſus Chriſt, to wit, his poore members, lying ful of botches & ſores before the gate, who hath ſayd: Inaſmuch as you haue done Mat. 25. d. 40. it vnto one of the leaſt of theſe my brethren, ye haue done it to me. Doth not héere Sainct Auguſtine cléerely ſay, that man muſt do his good déeds & almoſe, not vnto ye ſat Moonks & Prieſts, but to the poore members of Ieſus, whileſt ye hée is héere in the way? For after ye he ſhalbe out of this world, the good déds & almoſe ye their parents & friends do beſtow of their riches, profiteth them nothing at all. Wherto alſo Hierome in Eſa of Forgiueneſſe in this vvorld agreeth ye which S. Hierome ſpeaketh off, ſaying: he which ſhal not obtein pardō of his ſins, whileſt ye he liueth in this body, & ſhal ſo depart this life, he periſheth to god & leaueth to be: Although ye be do make himſelf ſubject to paines. By thoſe dronken bankets of whch Sainct Auguſtine ſpeaketh off, wée may ſufficiently vnderſtand what was the cuſtome of the Panims, which for an affection that they dyd beare vnto their parents & friends, & for a deſire that they had, and alſo for a pompe and glorye, haue dedicated ſome Daies dedicated to the dead. Neeyſia. Lunata. Euagiſmata. Ceteriſmata. Terchiſmata. Triacas. Parentationes. Nouendialia Demealia. Ratio diui off. de off. pro mort Rub. 7. of them, the thirde, the ſeauenth, ninth or tenth day, others the thirtie or fortie daye, for to make remembraunce for the dead, and to offer for them and make feaſtes and bankets. And haue not ordained thoſe dayes wythout putting ſuperſtition to the number of them. And yet neuertheleſſe, wee doe ſée that the Chriſtians altogether and wholly haue followed that manner of dooinge, as it appeareth bothe by their practiſe, and alſo by the booke of Durand: Although that Sainct Ambroſe & others after him haue made Sermons & decrées, againſt that cuſtome, the which notwithſtandinge coulde not be ſo cleane taken away and aboliſhed, but that that ſuperſtitō continueth almoſt euery where. For men do The ſeuenth dayes and the yere mindes. celebrate the ſeauenth day, tenth day, anwerſaries or yeare mindes wyth great bankets and pleaſures, as it appeareth by the canons and decrées, in which it is written after this ſorte. No Prieſte ſhall in any wiſe preſume to be droncken Diſt. 44. ex cō cilio Nauentē ſi. Nullus. A leſſon for the Prieſts. Quaffing for bidden. when hée commeth to the yeare minde, or to the trentenarie, or to the ſeauenth daye, or ternary of any office for the dead, or to anye contraire or brotherhoode: And that hée drincke nor quaffe when hée ſhall hée deſyred for the loue and in the name of the Sainctes, or for the loue of the ſoule of him that is deade, nor that hée doo not alſo compell others to drinike: and that he doo not play the Gluttony. glutton and fyll himſelfe to muche wyth good chéere at the requeſt of an other: And that hée preſume not to rehearſe and recyte ieſtes and vnlawfull ſcoffinges, playes and vaine fables: nor by anye meanes to ſinge: And Maskes and Morriſhes. that he ſuffer not that one ſhoulde make before hym vyle games and toyes, and that hée conſente not that one ſhoulde bringe before hym falſe viſages and maſkes of Dyuelles. For that is dyabolicall, and forbiden of the holy Canons. We maye well vnderſtand by that decrée of the counſayle, what honeſtie the Prieſtes and Chriſtians haue kept in ſuch bankets, ſith that they muſt make lawes by the counſailes, and wherein they differed from the Panims. Wherefore if the good auncient fathers haue made anye memory of the deade, it was after that ſorte and manner, as wée haue already ſpoken off, and for to abolyſh by that meanes the ſuperſtitious faſhions of the Panims, and to chaunge them to better manners, ſith that they cannot pluck them away altogether. For if ſuch religion was pleaſinge vnto God, it was meruayle, that God dyd not as well ordayne, God hath not inſtituted feaſts nor ſacrafices for the dead. certeyne feaſtes, ſacrifices and ceremonies, for the dead, as he hath done in all other thinges, and many, which ſéeme not to be ſo neceſſary, as thoſe héere doe eſtéeme the offering for the dead, whom they doe grieue more, then any commaundement that God hath euer gyuen. If that were cōpriſed in the loue that we owe vnto our neighbour, how could the ſpirite of God holde his peace, Ieſus Chriſt and ſaint Paul his Apoſtle, who haue ſo much ſtroue againſt it, and commaunded loue towardes our neighbour, and haue not once ſpoken any word to make prayers, almoſte nor ſacrifices for the dead? If that ſame had bene neceſſary, and according to the will of God, why would they haue more hidden it from vs then any other thinge? howe can that which Ieſus Chriſt and alſo his Apoſtles haue ſayde be true, that they haue declared and manifeſted vnto vs all the wyll of God? Doe we not then vnto them greate iniury, to make that a commaundement of loue and charitie of whiche they haue neuer ſpoken off? But I am not abaſhed ſithe that almoſt in all other thinges the Prieſtes dooe followe the Panims, and the Iewes the Moſoycall Ceremonyes, abolyſhed by Ieſus Chriſte, howe they haue not followed them in this matter, and that they doe not abſteyne to come néere the deade, and to aſſiſt them at their buryalles, as the auncient Prieſtes of the lawe, vnto whome GOD hath forbidden it. For if they woulde bée Iewes, and followe them in older thinaes, they oughte alſo to followe them in thys, or to yéelde a reaſon, wherefore they followe them in one thing, and not in an other. VVherein the Prieſts doe folovv y Ievves & Panims

Hillarius.

they had rather to followe the Gentyles and Panims in this behalfe: For their Ceremonies and ſuperſtytions doo bringe vnto them more profite, the which they followe, notwithſtandinge they are nothing worthe, as I haue alreadye ſayde. Wherefore I thincke that they would haue made to others, a lawe gathered out of all that whiche was euyll and wycked.

Theophilus.

It is then eaſelye to bée vnderſtanded by all thoſe thinges that the prayſe that Neomi dyd Ruth. 1. b. 8 Ruth. 2. d. 20 gyue vnto Ruth, ſayinge: The Lorde deale as kindlye wyth you, as ye haue dealte wyth the dead: And vnto Booz in lyke manner, prayſinge hym for that hée hath kepte for the deade that ſame grace and lyberalytie, as he did vnto the liuinge, regarding not the Maſſes, prayers, ſonges and ſacrifices whiche they haue done for them: But the loue and charitie that they haue ſhewed towardes the parents and friendes of the dead that be liuing. Wherefore the holy Scripture declareth what mercy we ought to haue of the dead, and what good déedes God requyreth of vs for them. The prayers, offerings and good deedes, that What good deedes God requireth for the dead. Ruth, that good wydowe, did make for hir huſbande that was dead: was, that ſhe kept company, faith and loyaltie wyth Noemi hir Mother in lawe, hir huſbandes mother. A poore widowe both of huſbande and children as ſhée hirſelfe Ruth & Noemi was, ſhe comforted hir in hir afflictions and aduerſities: And nouriſhed, cheriſhed & loued hir, & was attendaunt vpon hir in hir olde age, as though ſhe had bene hir owne The good deedes done vnto the dead by Booz. mother. In like manner the grace and loue that Booz hath alſo kept & done vnto the ſonnes of Noemi as well to thoſe that were dead as to thoſe ye be liuing, that is, that euen as during their life, he hath exerciſed loue and charitie towards them in cheriſing and comfortinge them, the lyke affection hath he kept towardes them after they were deade. And when he coulde no more ayde and ſuccour them, and that they had no more neede of him, hée hath declared his loue that he dyd beare vnto them, towardes the wydowes, mothers and wiues, of whome he hath had pittie and compaſſion, & hath hulpen them both in body & goods, procuring wyth all his power the honour and profite both of the one Ruth. 4. c. 10 & of the other, vntill he did take to wyſe that poore widowe Ruth the Moabite, which was y graundmother of Dauid, Mat. 1. 3. 3 and hir remembraunce is celebrated with the ſame of Booz hir huſbande, in the gonealogy of Ieſus Chriſte. Wherefore we may knowe, howe much the woorke bothe of the one & of the other hath pleaſed God, & what remembraunce we ought to haue of the dead.

Thomas.

I doe finde that to bée the beſt waye, to beſtowe and giue the almoſe vnto the poore widowes and fatherleſſe children (for that is the true Religion) then for to take their goodes and beſtowe them vppon the dead, or to waſte and conſume them vppon bawdes and harlots, and vpon their children in like manner.

Hillarius.

I warrant you they will not followe any good example, nor the certeine commaundement of God, but what do they follow in this matter? When I haue wel read ouer and ouer againe all the holy Scripture, I doe not finde one worde. And the moſt auncienteſt that I can finde which did firſt bringe in thoſe manner of dooings among the The Authours & inſtitutors of ye fun ralls Pluto. Diedo Aeneal Virg. Aene. 5 Ouid. Faſt. 2. 5 Romulus. Plutar. in Romulo. Panims, was Pluto: of whome we will ſpeake off héereafter, whome the Docts and the Panims haue made the God of the ſoules: and the king of the dead, and of hell. After him came Aeneas, who did bringe that cuſtome into Italy. After Aeneas, Romulus and Numa the Kinges of the Romaines: afterwardes our Popes, who haue contynued, augmented and confirmed ſtill more and more thoſe errours and abuſes. Althoughe that the Panyms hadde yet a certeyne better opynion in the ſame, then our ſuperſtitious Papyſtes hadde. For they dyd not make the ſacryfices for the deade, for the eſtymation that they hadde, that that ſhoulde ſerue them for to deliuer them from paines, but for to appeaſe them, to the ende that their ſpirites ſhoulde not hurt them and doe them euill, if they had diſpleſed them when they were aliue. For Plato himſelfe who hath bene the one of the chiefeſt forgers & Plato de repub li. 12. After death the parents and friends can doe uothuig. inuenters of Purgatory, witneſſeth plainely, that the parents & friends cānot profit y dead. And therfore (ſaith he) ye parents, friends and kinſſlolkes ought to admomſhe their friends that they do liue well and honeſtly, and to do preſently vnto them that good. For there (to wytte) after this life, they cannot giue it thē. And before the iudgement ſeat there ſhall not be any great company of parents & friends which ſhall mainteine and defende and intreate y Iudge, and which canne obtaine of him, that he wil pardon thée.

Theophilus.

I would to God that all our diuines bad no more euill and wicked opinions then that panim, touching the dooings of the dead, and that they had ſaide noe ſentence leſſe to be credited then this.

Thomas.

If ye panims did not meane y their ſacrifices & commemoration ſhould profit the dead, wherefore did they it then.

Hillarius.

It might be that they did thinke, that there might retourr vnto them ſome little profit: But yet neuertheleſſe their cheife intent and purpoſe was to appeaſe the ſoules of the dead and to reconcile them vnto them by that meanes, to the end they ſhould not hurt them, either in their bodies or goods: euen as they haue accuſtomed to celebrate ſcaſts and to do ſacrifices vnto the ſoules of holy men, whom they did think to be in heauen with the gods, for to haue ayd and ſolace, as Aeneas did vnto his Father Diuers ſacrili ces for ye dead, for diuers cauſes Anchiſes. And all that errour procéeded, from the falſe opinion that they had of the ſoules, and for want of knowing their nature and eſtate, therefore they iudged after their owne ſence and vnderſtanding, and not after the word of God. As they do alſo of the bodies, thinking (at the leaſt the moſt ſuperſticyous, as it hath bene alreadye touched) that the ſoule doth walke a certaine time, if their bodyes hath not bad y honor of ye burial, ſuch as apertameth & was Virg. Aene. 5 meete for them: And that the bodies were in daunger of Enchantors and ſorcerers, which would abuſe them thorow their Nycromancic & coniuration. And the Hebrewe The opinion of the Rabius and Doctors of ae levvs touching the body The dwell A izel. Ge . of. 3. d 14 Eſa. 5. d. 24 Rabins, and doctors of the Iewes, and in no leſſe dreaming. For they ſay, that the dead body is left in the power of the diuell, who calleth him ſelfe Zazell, and doe wreſt and turne thoſe places of the ſcripture, for to confirme their erroure, vnto whom it is ſaid vnto the Serpent: Thou ſhalt eate of the earth all the dayes of thy life. And in another place. The earth ſhalbe the Serpents meate. They woulde conclude by thoſe words, that the body of man, and all that which is in the fleſhe, and the vices therein, is giuen for meate to the Serpent, whom they do call Azazell, lord of the fleſhe and the bloud, and Prince of that world, ſaying that he is alſo called in Leuiticus the Prince of ye deſerts. Sith then that our body is created and made of the ſlime Geneſ. 2. a. and duſt of the earth, and that the earth is giuen for meat vnto the ſerpent, they conclude thereby, that our bodies are ſubiect vnto him, and in his power, vntill ſuch time as they be ſanctified, and that the earthly fleſhe bee tranſformed and changed into a ſpirituall nature. And therfore ſay The foundatiō of the prayers for the dead they that that body hath neede both in his buriall, & whileſt that he is in this earth, to be purified & ſanctified through prayers ſacrifices, encenſements, exorciſmes, coniurations, and other ceremonies fit for the ſame.

Theophilus.

Durand in that booke, wherein he yeldeth Daran Radiui. off. li. 7. Rub. de off. promort. Reiſerſperg. Sermo do inic 23. poſt trinit. & 24. & feri. 7.. ſeſt praſent. B. Mar. & don 1. duent. & fers. 4 feſt. S. Andr The vſe of holy vvater at the burials the reaſon of all the popiſh ceremonies, ſpeaking of the office and burying of the dead, allegeth the ſame reaſons, and almoſt nothing differeth from the Iewes and Cabaliſtes. Wherein we may well know that the ſuperſticious chriſtians followe more the Iewiſh and Cabaliſticall doctrine, then the Chriſtian and Apoſtolicall doctrine. For Durand himſelfe is compelled to confeſſe, that the bodies of the dead are encenſed and ſprinkled with holy water, not to that end that they are purged and deliuered from their ſinnes, which could not then by ſuch things, be defaced & put out: But to the ende that the wicked ſpirites, and theyr preſence ſhould be dryuen away. And therefore ſaith hée that in ſome places, they do put of the the holy water into the tombe or graue, with the fire and encenſe, and that the holy water is put there, to the e de that the diuell ſhoulde not come neere, for he doth feare it very much.

Hillarius.

It hath bene well declared and proued by Fryer Gyles that holy Cordelier, vnto whom the diuel appeared A fable of a Cordelier, li. co form . ſo terrible, that he could not ſpeake for feare. And as the diuell came vppon him and greeued him muche, Fryer Giles could not ariſe, but did creepe as well as hee coulde vnto a veſſell wherein was holy water, wherewith hee ſprinkled himſelfe: and was incontinently deliuered from that feare that the diuell did vnto him.

Theophilus.

Behold a good proofe: the holy water hath then more vertue and power then Ieſus Chriſte, and the faith in him: or els that Fryer Gyles had no faith, which is The faith. Ephe. 6. c. 16 the buckler and ſhield, wherewith the Apoſtle teacheth vs to reſiſt the diuell. I do muche meruaile where God hathe commaūded to driue away the diuell by water, and when To driue away the diuell, by water the true ſeruants of God haue vſed ſuch weapons aginſte the diuell.

Hillarius.

At the leaſtwiſe they muſt prouide for him a boate if they would driue him awaye by water,

Theophilus.

When the witnes of the ſcripture faileth it muſt néedes be, that thoſe maiſters of ceremonies haue then recourſe vnto fables. But for to returne againe vnto the reaſons of Durand, he addeth moreouer, that in what ſoeuer place the chriſtians ſhalbe buried out of the churchyarde, they ought to ſet alwayes a croſſe at his head. For the diuell doth feare very much that ſigne, & dareth not to The ſ me of the Croſſe. come nigh the place, where he ſeeth the croſſe.

Hillarius.

That is bicauſe that the earth which is out of the church yard, is not coniured. Wherby it hath not ſo much vertue. And therfore in recōpence, they do ad y croſſe, for to driue away ye diuell.

Theophilus.

For y ſame cauſe do they alſo coniure y earth of y churchyard. For as they The hattayle of the D •• ll againſt the dead bodyes. do witnes & affirme, ye diuels haue vſed to get thē vnto the dead bodies, and to exerciſe their cruelty and vengeaunce againſt them, and inforce themſelues to do vnto them, at the leaſt wiſe after that they are dead that whiche they could not do whileſt they were aliue. Furthermore, they Reiſerſperg. Sermi de mor. •• t dominie. piniqua. Mat. 22. h. 21. ſay that at the day of iudgement, our Lorde Ieſus Chriſte will ſay vnto them that preſent themſelues vnto him, that whiche be aunſwered vnto the diſciples of the Herodians, and Phariſes when they aſked of him the queſtion of the tribute, and that they had ſhewed vnto him the money and Image of Ceſar. Euen ſo will he ſay vnto thoſe: whoſe is this Image? what money is this? Then thoſe which ſhalbe marked with the croſſe, ſhalbe knowen to bee good chriſtian money: And Ieſus Chriſt will ſay: that whiche is Ceſars, that is to ſay, vnto the diuell, giue it him & that which is vnto God, giue it to God.

Hillarius.

I am abaſhed if the diuell dares carrye away thoſe which haue made vppon them the ſigne of the materiall croſſe, eſpecially the prieſtes and moonks, whiche are all hyd and couered with them? Are not theſe goodly reaſons, and moſt worthy of ſuch diuines?

Euſebius.

Yea, thoſe are Godly reaſons, what will you ſay to the contrary? do ye thinke that ſoe manye wiſe men which haue bene in the churche haue not well conſidered the cauſes, wherefore they ought to do that? And that it hath not ben ordeyned without good & iuſt reaſon?

Theophilus

Thou haſt heard them, and thou haſt alſo the Iewes, Cabaliſts and Panyms, for to be the firſte authors of them. But thoſe dreames are yet more tollerable, and worhty of pardon then thoſe here, bycauſe that hauing the braine full of falſe opinions, and inchauntments, they feare leaſt the enchauntors, Magitians, and eſpecially the coniurers, and the diuell with them, ſhould abuſe their bodies, thorow their enchaūtments necromances & witchcraft. But what excuſe or coloure can the chriſtians haue, who ought to be aſſured of their ſaluation in Ieſus Chriſt, as wel for the body as for the ſoule, vſing ſuch ceremonies, which I may truly call charmes inchauntements, & magicall ſuperſticions and purifications, and not euangelical. For although that the earth hath bene giuen for meate to the ſerpent and that our bodies are taken of the earth, how will God permit and ſuffer, that that olde ſerpent, ſhall defile 1. Cor. 6. 1. 19 thoſe bodyes whiche haue bene the Temple & habit ation of his holy ghoſt? And whiche haue bene conſecrated vnto him, thorow the bloud of his ſonne Ieſus Chriſt, and ſanctified thorow his ſpirite? haue the water and the earth which are bewitched and charmed, after the manner as the enchaunters & charmers do their exorciſms & coniurations and a corruptible and a materiall croſſe, more vertue then the conſecration of our bodies and ſoules, whiche Ieſus Conſecratiō of Ieſus Chriſt. Chriſt the great and ſoueraigne Byſhoppe and eternall Prieſt, hath done by his bloud and the liuely water of his holy ſpirit, and the baptiſme that we haue receyued in his name? And if we as good chriſtians haue borne the croſſe with him, that is to ſay, the troubles and aduerſities of this world, in all patience, and haue put all our hope and truſt in the merite of his death & paſſion, reioyſing our ſelues only in his croſſe, as the holy apoſtle ſaith wee ought not to doubte but that that faithe, hath imprinted ſuche a croſſe and ſuch a ſigne and marke in our hearts and bodies, ye the diuel dareth not to approch nor come nigh them. And if that ſame is not ſufficient, there is none other after To heare the croſſe of Chriſt. Mat. 16. d. 24. Luc. 14. . 27 our death, which can ſerue vs. Furthermore ſith that God hath giuen vnto vs his Angels, for to ſerue, kéepe & defend vs, let vs not feare, that as they haue ca ted the ſoule of Lazarus, into Abrahams boſome, and haue kepte and defended the body of Moſes from the power of the diuell, and Gal. . d. 14 did ſtriue and fight for it againſt them, but that they wilbe Stigmatos. The Angells ye miniſters of the faithfull. Pſa. 91. c. 11 Lue. 16. e. 22. Heb. 1. d. 14. Epiſt Iude. b. 9. The body and burial of Moſes Deut. 34. b. 6 alſo aſſiſting vnto all true faithfull people, for to kéepe their bodies & ſoules, according to the charge and commiſſion that they haue of God and that God himſelfe woulde bury them rather, as he hath buried Moſes, then to ſuffer that Sathan ſhoulde haue domination or rule ouer them. Wherfore I do greatly feare, that the bodies and reliques which the idolatrous chriſtians do worſhippe, and honour vnder the name and title of the ſaincts, & ſaintes, are not The holy bodie and relicks. the true bodies and reliques of the Saincts and true ſeruants of God, but rather thoſe of ſome malefactory or wicked man and abhominable before God. For it euer any bodyes were lefte vnder the power of the olde Serpent, and of the Diuell, thoſe be they, of whom men haue made Idols, & which haue ben ſet vp for relicks for to be adored & worſhipped, & which haue bene the occaſion among the Chriſtian people of the greateſt Idolatry ye euer was in ye worlde. Wherefore it is moſt lykeſt to be true, that the diuell maketh himſelfe to be worſhipped and honoured by the bodyes in which he dwelled, and of which he was ſerued during their lyfe, then in thoſe whiche haue bene the Temple of the lyuing God, and which haue ſerued to his honour and glory, forſaking altogether the diuell and his ſeruice. The Iewes and Cabalyſts haue eſtéemed thoſe purifications and ceremonyes about the dead, of which we haue ſpoken, to be neceſſary to their bodyes bicauſe that the Magicians and coniurers haue vſed to ſteale them Coniurers awaye, or to take certayne members from them for to ſerue for their witchcraftes & to make them inſtruments of the diuell: as it appeareth by the witneſſe of many auncient writings and hiſtoryes. Lucanus Pharſ. li. 6. Erichtho the Sorcerer The cuſtome of Theſlaly. Apul. in aſini. aur. li. 2.

Hillarius.

Lucan declareth it very playnely, deſcribing the Witchcraftes and Sorceryes of Erichtho. For that ſame cauſe the cuſtome was in Theſſalia the which hath alwayes had the name to be full of Enchaunters, Witches and Coniurers, that when any man was dead, a certeine Seriaunt or common Heralde cryed with a loude voyce in the open ſtréete, that if there were any man which woulde kéepe a dead body lette him come foorth and bargaine and agrée for the price?

Thomas.

Wherefore did they ſo? haue the dead bodyes in Theſſaly vſed to run away? or whether they were more daungerous then in other countryes. Mortui non mordent. Percius. in pertam rig. dos calces eatē dit.

Hillarius.

Thou mayſt well knowe, that the deade bodyes can no more byte any man, and that they are in an euil caſe, for to runne away ſith ye they muſt be carryed to be buryed, their ſeete ſtretched out right before.

But I thinke that thou haſt not forgotten that which we haue ſpoken of the Panyms, how that they doe not bury their dead by and by, and the cauſes wherefore And therefore the Theſſalians, vſed to keepe their dead al the night, vntil the day that they burned their bodies, and buried Apul. in Aſini. li. 2. Sagae mulieres, ora mortuorum paſsim demorſicant: ea quae ſunt illis artis Magicae ſupplementa Imo vero etiā muſcas indunt. their aſhes, bicauſe they had that opiniō, that the ſorcerers did come in the night and did byte their faces, and diſmember them, for to ſerue them for their enchauntements and witchcraftes: and for to doe the ſame, they tranſforme and chaunge them ſelues into the forme and likenes of what beaſt they liſt: ſometime into ye likenes of birdes, ſome time like dogs, or myce: yea into the likenes of very flyes: and afterwards doe flye and come into the houſes and enter ſo ſubtilly and ſecretly that none cane perceiue it. And when they are entred within, they thorowe their enchauntements doe make thoſe that keepe them fall into a ſlepe, afterwards they doe vnto the dead bodies what it pleaſeth them. For that cauſe the parents and frinds of the dead, did hire kéepers, for a péece of money, for to watch all the night by the dead bodie, without ſléeping any thing at all, not ſo much as to winke, or to turne their face here and there, but to haue theyr eyes alwayes fixed vpon the dead body. After that they haue founde out keepers, whiche will take vppon them that charge, they deliuer the body vnto them in charge, hauing witneſſes how they haue deliuered it all whole and ſound afterwards they ſhut them into a chamber, with the dead body, and a lampe full of Oyle, for to giue them light vntill the morning, and water within veſſels. And if he that Quicquid inde decaptum dimi nutum que juerit id omne de facie ſua deſectū, ſarcire compellitur. kéepeth it do not take good héede of the body the next day whatſoeuer is wanting or diminiſhed of ye dead body that he hath euil and negligently kept, hee is bounde to reſtore and recompence it of his owne proper face.

Thomas.

Theſe people were verye fooles to beléeue ſuch follyes. Who hath written the ſame.

Hillarius.

A good doctor called Apuleus, whiche ſaith that he hath done that office himſelfe.

Thomas.

Truely thou haſt very well founde it. Peraduenture he hath ſéene the ſame, whileſt that he was chaunged into an Aſſe. To vvate h the dead.

Hillarius.

I do confeſſe, that the ſame is a great dreaming: But do not the chriſtians almoſt the like? doe not they alſo watche the dead bodies with a candle and holy water? Are they afrayd that they would runne away, or leaſt the Cattes or Mice ſhould come and gnawe the féete and the face of the dead? or whether they are afraid of witches and coniurers? or that the diuell ſhoulde carry them away, as one hath written of ſome, whoſe bodies are not yet toune? if God hath giuen power vnto the diuels ouer the dead bodies: the water, candles, fire nor incenſe, ſhall not make them afrayd, nor yet the witchecraftes and coniurations, except they will ſay, that they do vſe charme againſt charme, and that theirs is more ſtronger then thoſe of the enchauntors.

Theophilus.

It is not now néede, that they take ſuch paines, for to driue awaye the diuels or the ſocerers from them. For their was neuer forcerer, coniurer nor enchauntor, that abuſed more vile and ſhamefully the bodies of men, nor to the greater diſhonoure of God and hurte of all the Chriſtianitie, then the Prieſtes and Moonks, who in ſteade of the coniuring, that is to ſay, diuination by ye dead that the Panyms and Infidels haue exerciſed and vſed, they haue ſet vp & erected a necrolatrie, that is to ſay, an Coniuring. adoration and worſhipping of the dead, and the moſt greateſt Idolatrie that euer was vpon the earth: And haue made the bodies of men to ſerue ye diuell, & haue made him to be worſhiped, vnder the name and title of them, euen as Saul worſhiped him vnder the name of Samuel, by the Necrolatrie meanes of his old witche. Is not that a great blaſphemy and ſacriledge, to offer & conſecrate vnto the diuell the bodies of men, whom Ieſus Chriſt hath dedicated and conſecrated Saul. 1. Reg. 18. a. 7. A vvitch to God thorow his bloud, for to bee the Temple of the holy Ghoſt, not for to be Idols, that men ſhoulde worſhip them, in ſtede of God? we may very well ſay, that theſe bodyes of which Sathan is ſerued vnder the tytle The bodyes of dead men in the ſteede of the Idolls of the Panims of the relyckes of ſaints, after the manner as he was ierued before of the Images and Idolls of the panims, haue not bene well coniured by the charmes, witchings, croſſe, candells, encenſe and holy water for to driue the Diuell from them: or els ye all thoſe things were nothing worth ſith that Sathan hath had ſuch power vpon them, that hée hath letted them to retourne vnto the place which God hath aſſigned them, to wyt, into the earthe out of which Geneſ. 3 d, 19 Epiſt. Iude. b. 9. they came, and that he hath done that that hée pretended to do about the body of Moſes, the which he deſired to ſet vp for an Idoll among the people of Iſrael, knowing that Exo. 20. a, 4 Deut. 5, a. 6 God hath forbidden Images and Idolls. And there is no doubt, but that he had brought it to paſſe, if God by the miniſtring of his Angells, had not letted him, and ſhewed The buriall of the Saints his vertue and power, not thorow materiall croſſes, holy water, candells and torches, encenſe and lyghts, and other like ſuperſticions, the which Moſes had not at his buryall nor all the Patriarches, Pruphetes, and Apoſtles, nor yet of Prayers, Suffrages, nor Sacrifices, after their death, and yet they were neuertheleſſe delyuered from the power of the ſerpent.

Hillarius.

You forgette the principall, you ſpeake not of the habite of Saint Fraunces which hath yet more vertue The vertue of S, Fraūces habite then all that which you haue declared and ſpoken off, if we will beléeue and giue any credite vnto the Cordeliers and Nonnes. For it doth not onely driue away the diuells which are about the bodye, but alſo it quencheth the fire of Purgatory, and mitigateth the paynes, eſpecially if that he which hath clad himſelfe with it doe dye vpon Saint Fraunces daye. But which is more, it delyuereth The feaſt of Saint Fraunces. from eternall death, as the Cordeliers doe witneſſe of the king of Caſtilia, which was delyuered, bicauſe yt being The king of Caſtilia Moſt horrible blaſphemy. The ſelicitie of the lyce & their boldeneſſe ready to dye he did put on him yt holy garment, & dyed in the ſame: and aſwell of other Kings & Quéenes, of whom mention is made of them in ye booke of ye conformities. Whrfore I eſteeme ye lice the moſt happieſt creatures of all others, according to the Theologie of the Cordeliers. For there dyeth a great number of them within that holy habite. Wherefore Fryer Lewes did no wrong, in callyng them the pearles of the poore. But I doe much meruayle of one thing, yt the Lyce are more bolder then the Diuells, ſith that the Diuells doe ſo much feare that holy habite that they dare not approche and come nighe, and the Lyce lodge there at their eaſe. I ſhould well beléeue that if the Diuells were as fearefull as the young children, that they ſhoulde be greatly afrayde of that habite and maſke at the beginning, when they did ſee men ſo wildely diſguyſed. And I thinke, that if Ortis the kings Ortis a Moore Moore, had bene the firſte that had dyed in that habite, that they woulde haue had great feare. For he was as blacke as a Diuell, & diſguyſed as a Cordelier, wherefore they would haue founde the ſame very ſtraunge.

Thomas.

But I am wonderfully abaſhed, wherfore they put rather a croſſe in the handes of thoſe which dye in the habite of Saynt Fraunces, then in the hands of poore ſimple people, who are buried onely in a ſhéete.

Hillarius

I can giue vnto thée none other reaſon, but that I thinke that the ſame is done by the permiſſion and prouidence of God, which will that men ſhould doe vnto them honour, as they cuſtomally doe vnto the euill and wicked men, when they are executed thorow Iuſtice, vnto which in many places and countryes, they make him to beare a croſſe in his handes, chiefely the Sorcerers and Heretickes. Wherefore men doe not very great wrong vnto thoſe Idolaters which doe put theyr affiaunce and VVhat doth the croſſe ſignifie vhich is beciven ye hands of thoſe vvhich do dye in the habite of Saint Fraunces truſt in an olde rotten garment, to compare them vnto the Sorcerers and Heretickes, rather then to the poore ſimple people, ſith that they haue declared themſelues more Infidells then the other, and that they haue leſſe fayth and hope in the merite of the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt.

Euſebius.

Wherefore doeſt thou ſpeake ſo outragiouſly, ſith that the moſt honeſte and wiſe men and which are moſt eſtéemed in this worlde, haue deſired to dye in that habite?

Theophilus.

So much the more oughte wée to feare moſte, ſeeing that the efficacie and ſtrengthe of Sathan The efficacie of Sathan. hath béene ſo greate, that the moſt wyſeſt men of the worlde, and thoſe which are accompted for good and vertuous men, haue bene deceyued thorowe ſuch opinions, and are fallen into ſuch blaſphemyes, the which yet thoſe wicked Moonkes are not aſhamed to vpholde and maynteyne. For what blaſphemy was euer greater The blaſphemy of the cordelier vppon the earthe, as to to attribute vnto ſuche a Maſke, the healthe and ſaluation of ſoules, and to make an Idoll and newe Chriſt, not onely of Saynt Fraunces, but alſo of his hoode and habite? Whereas in déede I doe not thinke, that he was euer diſguyſed in ſuch ſorte, and that he hath bene the author of thoſe blaſphemyes, of which vnder his name and tytle all the worlde hath bene filled and poyſoned, thorowe the meanes and practiſe of thoſe falſe bretheren the Cordeliers, which haue bene the Trompette and Bagpipe of ſathan The bagpipe of Sathan. throughout all Chriſtendome, together with theire other companions. But to what ende doth that habite profite the deade? It maye ſerue for thoſe that bee lyuing for a gowne, hoſe, bonet and hoode, for to couer and keepe them from the colde.

Hillarius.

You doe yet forgette the chiefeſt. For it ſerueth alſo vnto the Moonkes, for to ſhewe that they The vtlliue of the habite are effeminated, and worthye to bee taken for woemen, although that by their workes, they ſufficiently declare themſelues not to be woemen, and that men doe not call them father, without good cauſe. Yet neuertheleſſe mée thinkes they are repugnaunt to the Scripture which forbiddeth men to putte on woemens rayment, nor the The diſguiſing of men like women. Deut 22. a. 5 woeman that which pertayneth vnto the man. And yet neuertheleſſe, hée which ſhall conſider and marke well their apparayle, they are lyker woemens apparayle then mens, aſwell thoſe which they commonly weare, as the veſtements which they doe vſe in their Maſſes.

Theophilus.

I graunt vnto thée all that: but to what ende ſerueth it to the dead? Firſt of all what profite can it bring vnto the ſoule? For it cannot touch it, cloathe, nor couer it, nor yet deſcende into Purgatory with it.

The body alſo goeth neither into purgatory nor into hell, but is buryed in the earth, vntill the day of the reſurrection. For then the habite ſhall be cleane rotten, and I do not beléeue that it ſhall ariſe with the body, and that thoſe which are dead in the ſame, ſhall ariſe agayne clothed in a Cordelier. For it ſhall not be then time to make maſkes and daunce the moriſh. There is neyther the habite of Fraunces, Dominicke, nor of any Moonke whatſoeuer he be, nor any thing that man can muent and dreame, which can ſerue vs any thing before the face of that great Iudge The iudgement of God. The leanes of ye Fig tree of Adā. Geneſ. 3. . 7 of the quicke & of the dead, no more then the Fig leanes ſerued Adam for to couer him before him, but that hée will ſée all our filthineſſe and abhominations, if they hée not couered and hid with the righteouſnes and innocencie of Ieſus Chriſt. Wherefore if we will appeare clothed and not naked before his maieſtie, it muſt be that he himſelfe doe cut out and make the apparayle and habite, wherewith we muſt be clothed, as he did make vnto Adam Adams apparell and and Eue. And therfore we muſt follow the counſaile of the Apoſtle, who exhorteth vs to put off the olde man, and to put on, not y habite of Fraunces or Dominicke, but our Lur Lord Ieſus Chriſt. For that is an habite which The habite of Chriſt & of the relygious Chriſtians Ephe. 4. . 22 Collo, 3, b. 10. ſerueth both to the body and to the ſoule, and which delyuereth from ye iudgement of god. That is the holy water, the lights, bells, ſencings and candells, which delyuereth our bodies & ſoules from the power of the ſerpent, whoſe head he hath broken. That is the water of lyfe, Geneſ. 3. c 15 Iohn. 4. b. 14 which rayſeth vs vnto eternall lyfe: which waſheth and maketh cleane our conſciences. That is the true fire of Purgatorye, and furnayce in which the olde Adam is melted and made newe, and the newe man purged from all his filthyneſſe and ſimes. Wherefore I doe giue counſell vnto you all, that you take good héede that ſuch treaſure be not ſtollen from you, and that you truſt not to the good déeds which thoſe that be alyue ſhall doe for you after that you are dead: But that you doe putte your truſt in Ieſus Chriſt, and declare and ſhew foorth the vertue and efficacie of your fayth, thorow charitie and good workes, which doe ſerue to the glory of God, to the edyfiyng of his Church, and the vtilytie of our neighbour, and that you follow the example of the true ſeruaunts of God, and the doctrine which the holy Ghoſt by them hath giuen vnto vs, not the Gentiles and Panims, and the falſe pyophets & ſeducers, which haue altogether turned vpſide downe the Chriſtian Religion, and haue conuerted it, not only into Iewiſhnes, but alſo into panimrie, witchcraft, & ſorcertee.

Euſebius.

You haue ſpoken as it pleaſeth you: but I muſt néeds auniſwere you. For if you diſpute & plead all alone, you may eaſely winne the victory.

Hillarius.

We deſire none other thing then to heare thy reaſons but wée haue forgotten one of the princiyall poynts. For we haue not yet demaunded of Thomas the cauſe wherfore he would go to ſaint Patricke: the which I deſire glady to know.

Thomas.

I haue determined with my ſelfe many times to tel you: but I deſire, to heare firſt what Euſebius can ſay agaynſt you. Wherefore I doe thinke it beſt that foraſmuch as all theſe dayes, there is none of vs which is ſo greatly occupyed but that wée may giue him the next day for his reuenge, to aunſwere: And after that I haue hearde all you, I will declare vnto you y meruaylous fantaſtes which I haue in my head.

Hillarius.

I beléeue, that there is none of vs, but that he is of that opinion.

Theophilus.

In ſtéede where others doe paſſe awaye the time in playing and other vayne occupations, whereoff commeth no profite, I finde it better, that we vſe ſuch recreations, which bring no hurt vnto any man, but may much ſerue and profite vs. For in ſo doing we learne the one the other: and doe examine the things together, the better to knowe how to render a reaſon of our Law and Religion: beſides that we learne ſome honeſt recreation together, the which is better agreeing with our eſtate, then to remayne idle without doing any thing, or in loſing the time in beholding foolyſh playes and maſkes: or in banketting and in beſtowing great expences, yet to the hurte and domame of our bodyes and ſoules: or vnto ſléeping, and as beaſtes to giue our ſelues onely vnto pleaſures, as many doe. And although that all wée may bée occupied in other mens affaires, eyther publicke or domeſticall, which woulde better ſerue for the purſſe and for the perticular gayne & profite: yet neuertheles one cannot be alwaies attētife in great affaires, without hauing ſome intermiſſion and relaxation of the ſpirite: And wée muſt not be ſo couetous after the gayne and the perticular profite, that at no time we ſhould haue leaſure to ſpeake and falke of the things of God, and that thorow honeſt pleaſures and recreations, we may not refreſh our wits and ſpirites, and prepare them agayne to the great affaires to which God hath called vs all, according to the grace that we haue receyued of him.

Thomas.

There is nothing more certeyn then that which thou ſayſt, and I would not for a great thing, but that I had bene with you and to haue heard, that which I haue heard. Hillarius. Wée ſhall knowe in the ende what taſt thou haſt had therein. Yet neuertheleſſe I doe more feare leaſte that Euſebius bée more offended then thou. But I truſt notwithſtandinge, that the hope that he hath of the victory, will giue him courage and boldneſſe to come agayne the more willyngly.

¶A TABLE OF THE PRINCIPALL matters of the firſt parte of the Dialogues. A. ABuſes are not yet inough vncouered & made knowne. fol. 16 Accipe ſal ſapientae. 35. Aduenturers. 47. Adams apparell. 114. Affectators of languages. what affections the Goſpel doth permit. 67. Alexander the firſte inuentiour of holye water. 35. Alexandrines. 66. Alexander Seuerus Emperour. 43. Ambroſe and Theodoſius. 78. Ambition of Alexander. 13. Anacharſis. 5. Angells ye miniſters of the faithful. 103. Anniuer ſaries. 25. Antipopes and Schiſutaticks. 88. Apes requisite in ye court of Babilon. 19. Apes of Ieſus Chriſt. 35. Apothegme of Diogenes. 60. Applications of Ieſus Chriſt. 34 Arithiuettcians and ſchoole of Arithineticke. 42. Ariſtoxenus. 70. The art to learn prieſts to be ſober. 39. All artes & diſciplines the handmaidens of holy letters or bookes. 6. Auarice of the Romaines. 41. Auernus. 90. The authors & inſtituters of funeralls. 100. B. Bables of fooles. 8. Bay tree. 75. Bactrianians and Hireanians. 58. Bacchus. 33. 13 Babilon taken 93. Bagpipe of Sathau. 106. Banner and the croſſe. 73. Baptiſine. 41. Baptiſines and waſſhings of the Iewiſh people. 34. Baptiſing of bells. 73. Bathes. 45. Bathing place of the dead. 36. Battayle of the diuell agaynſt dead bodyes. 102. Belles and Images the Prieſts vicars 71. Bells doe ſpeake all languages. 72. Bells to driue away the dwells. 73. Bellyes that are ſhoughtfull. 74. Benedictio bladi, ſalis & ouerum. 42. Benedictio reſurni. 42. Benedictio pera; & baculi. 42. Benedictio annuh & lecti. 42. Benedictio domus nouae. 42. Benedictio caſulae. 42. Benedictio ad omnia. 42. Benedictio panis & ſeminum. 42. Bewtifie ye ſepulchers with floures. 45. Brernoyes. 66. Blaſphemy moſt horrible. 105. Blaſphemy of the Cordelier. 106. The bleſſings of the Miſſell & the Manuell of the Prieſts. 42. Blondus. 47. Bodie and burnall of Moſes. 103. Bodyes of dead men in ſteede of the Idolls of the Panims. 105. The bones of Chriſt whole. 50. The booke of Iob dedicated to ye deade. 70. Uile bookes 7. Good bookes deſpiſed and forbidden. 8. Bookes diſceuering abuſes. 9. Ioyfull Bookes. Bookes and talkes that are filthy. 9. Latin Bookes. 4. French bookes. 4. Saint Brandon. 95 Burying of the poore in the night. 33. Bury one before he is dead. 64. Burying of the rich. 68. Burying of Pallas. 68 Burying of the poore. 69. Burying of the Turkes. 70 Buryals of Daynts. 105. Buryall ſolde. 43. Thoſe diſhonour God which do not honeſtly bury the dead. 67. Burying of the Barbarians. 66. Burying of an Aſſe. 68. Burying of a Rauen. 69. Butchery of the Prieſtes. 65 Biſhop Tibaud. 89 Biſhops the Prieſts bawdes. 43 C. Calender of the Shepheards. fol. 27 The Candell that goeth before. 64. Canes ſepulehrale . 58 Sea Calues. 75. Canon of the Maſſe & the Alcoran forbidden to be reade. 80. Canonization 78. Canonization of Saynts. 31. Capernaites. 49. 50. Carnal Goſpellers. 39. The cauſe wherefore God doth chaſtice vs in this world. 83. The cauſe wherefore the Purgatory of Ieſus Chriſt hath bene vnknown. 57 Cerberus the Porter of hell. 51. Chanong of Mount Faulcon. 58. Char bdis. 91. Charon the feryman. 87. The charitie of the auncient Chriſtians. 54. The chaſticement of the father tourards the childe. 84. Chriſt and Antechriſt. 88. The chriſtian all in all 8. The Chriſtian tributarye before hee isborne and after he is dead. 41. Churchyarde. 67. Cicero and Catilina. 7. Cocytus. 92. Commemoration of the dead. 77. Commemoration of Mortirs 77. Complaynt of a Curate. 65. Compariſon of the rich man and of Lazarus. 98. Compariſon of the true Prieſtes and Phiſitians. 76 Coniurers. 10 . Coniuring. 104. Coniure the time. 75. Confeſſion. 41. Confirmation. 41. The confines of hell. 23. Conſilium Elibertinum. 53. Conſecration of Ieſus Chriſt. 103. Counſell of Demas. 13. Counſell to worſhip the hoſte. 1. To beare y croſſe of Ieſus Chriſt. 103 The croyzatde. 54. Cryings of the dampned. 26. The crueltie of Pope Clement. 43 The crueltie of the Prieſtes towardes the ſoules. 62. Cuſtome of the Bigordians 45. Cuſtome of Theſſalia. 103 Cuſtome of the Aegyptians. 77. Cuſtome to praiſe the deade. 77. Auncient cuſtome. 70 The cuſtome of the deade, and the ſerye money of Charon. 45. D. Dayes dedicated vnto the dead. 99 Dama cenus. 96. Daungerous beggers. 55. Darkeneſſe of the world. 1 Dathan and Abiron. 57. Daughters of the horfeleach. 52 The deade why are they called treſpaſſes. 87 Death doth mocke the Prieſtes. 65. Death bought for money. 45. Holy deceiuing. 9. Decrees and Canons. 88 Delyueraunce from hell. 95 Demaund tribute of the dead. 4 Demetrians. 91. Democritus. 20. Depart out of Aegypt. 93. Diana the goddeſſe of the Epheſians. 93. Dicearchus. 70. The Deitie. 38. Difference of ſmnes, and the diuerſitie of the eſtates of the dead. 30. Difference betweene to ſpeake euill and to ſpeake the truth. 53. The dykes of the fortreſſes of the Papiſts. 91. Diodorus. 77. Diogenes. 34. 20. Diſguyſing of men lyke woeemen. 106. Diſcending into hell in Sycile. 24. The diſcription of the hill Aetna. 25. Diſpenſation for to eate fleſh and white meate. 43. Diſputations of Ciccero. 10. To diſpute with hereticks. 59. Diuells viſible. 26. The diuell Zazel or Azazel. 101 Diuiſion of ye infernal Coſmography. 28 Diuerſitie of purgations 31 Diuers opinions of the delyueraunce of Traianus. 95. The doctrinall of Alexander. 6. Doctine Papiſticall. 95 Doctrine of man mingled with the heauenly doctrine. 15. Dodonaeum aes, dodonae lebe es. 74 The Dormouſe. 36. Drinke vppon the hyde to came. 6 . To driue away the dutell by water. 102. To driue away ye dwell thorow faſtings and prayers. 39. The purging drogues of the Panims. 33. Dumme Dogges and cryers. 5 . E. Eares delyeate and pleaſaunt. fol. 12. To eate Ieſus Chriſt. 49. To eate Iacob. 50. To eate the ſkinne and the bones 51. Aegyptians at this preſent time. 1 Aegypt and Babilon. 2. Eloquence Apoſtolycall and humayn. 5. Eloquence without the feare of god. 7. Emperours and Popes abolyſhing the ſtatutes of their predeceſſours. 88 Epiphanius. 74 Epicurians. 17. Eridanus. 90. Reichtho the Sorcerer. 103. Errors of Saul. 1. Error touching the honouring and inuocation of Saints. 78 Eſchines and Demoſthenes. 7. The eſtate of the dend. 79. Aethna the hill Gibello. 24. Eurotos and Peneus. 90. Example of Eliſeus. 34 Example of the Smithes. 36 Extreme vnction. 42. Excommunication for money. 68 Extractors of the fifth eſſence. 22. F. Fable of the Dogge and the Aſſe. 19 Fayned fable vppon the bittory of Lazarus. 27 Fable of a Cordelier. 102. The Poetical fable of Enceladus and of the Gyaunts. 25. Faith. 10. Fall of Angels and of men. 97. Fall of Peter. 1. Faunes and Satyres. 26 Fall of the Soules. 101 Faſtings & praiers of the chriſtians. 39. Feaſt and proceſſion of Cyble. 74. Faſting hurtfull vnto thoſe that are ſubiect to anger. 62. Feaſt of Saynt Fradnces. 105 Feaſto ot the dead. 24. F •• ldes Eliſeas. 32. The felicitie of Lyce and their boldnes. 105. The fire inſatiable. 52. Fire and water. 88. The fire begon in Purgatorie. 82. The celeſtiall and euangely call fire. 56. The true fire of Purgatory. 56. The true fire of Purgatory. 56. To Aſh in troubled water. 92. Fiſhers of Chriſt and Antechriſt. 92. Fiſhers of golde and ſiluer. 92 Fiſhers forſaken. 93. Fiſhers of ſoules. 92. Flears and manglers of Latine. 5. Fleread nouercae tumulum. 6. The floud of Chriſt. 91. Floudes of hell, their names and interpretaciens. 89. Floudes of wine and milke. 89. Floudes of Paradiſe. 89 90. The forbidding of Iultan ye Apoſtate. 16 The forbiding of bookes. 90. Formoſus. 88. The forchead of the Hypocrites and of the Prophets. 18. To forget God. 91. Foundation for the poore. 70. Foundation of the faith of tranſubſtantiation. 82 Foundations of ye praiers for ye dead. 101 The foole counſell the wiſe. 2. Fountaynes of exceſſiue cooldeneſſe and heate. 26. Funus uneralia. 70. The furnayce of Purgatory. 55. G. Ganges. fol 90. Gaudeamus of the Prieſts. 55 Vnto whom we muſt giue. 54. The Geography of hell. 23. The gifte of tongues and languages. 4. Gluttony. 99. God Pluto. 55. God hath not inſtituted ſacrafices nor feaſtes for the dead. 99. The true God, and that of the prieſts. 48 Tributary Gods & to be ſolde. 54. To doe good whileſt we are alyue. 98. Goſpell publyſhed vnto all men. 80. Griffins and hell Rauens. 26. Gregorianiſts. 79. Greekes and Latins. 77. H. The habite and apparell of Chriſt, and of the relygious Chriſtians. 106 Harpyes. 52. Hebrus. 90. Hechelberge. 26. Hell and hell fire. 22 Hell and hell fire are eternall. 40 Hell. 22. 29. 40. Hell in Sicily. 25 Heraclitus. 20. Heredis ſleius ſub perſona riſus eſt. 65 Heritage of God. 51. Herodia. 72. Herophiles. 70. Hydes for ſhoes. 65. The hilles Iſlande and Norway. 26. The dolorous hill in Scotlande. 26. Hipocrites. 18. Hi1tory. 64. Hiſtoryes of our time. 10. A true hiſtory of our time. 44 A true hiſtory. 81. A true hiſtory in the yeare of our Lorde 1538. of a Prieſte that was a Sorcerer, and of his whore. 81. Holy Ghoſt the comforter. 92. The honour of Ieſus Chriſte traden vnder 12. The honour due vnto the dead. 66. Hunters after teſtaments and heritages 65. I. Idolatry of the Image of our Lady. fol. 74. Ieſus Chriſt the eternall Pope. 88. Wherein the Iewes doe follow the Panims. Saint Ignatius. 95 Induction. 50 Infants that are borne dead. 28 Infants ſalted. 35. Intention to conſecrate. 81. Innocation of Saynts. 80. Imitation of the Panims. 34. Infatible things. 52 Iudas out of hell. 95. Iudgement of the Lord. 106. Iupiter Elyeins. 75. Wherefore ſhall the Iudgement bee according to the workes. 85. K. Thoſe that doe kill themſelues. 68. King of Caſtille. 105 Kingdome of God. 92. L. Our Lady of Lauſanne and hir myracles. 44. The lakes and pondes of the Papiſts. 89. Lady Dogges. 19. Lake without water. 89. The lakes and infernall floudes. 88. The Paſcall Lambe. 50. Lamenting or ſurr wing for the dead. 67 Lamentacions of y prieſes for y dead. 64 Lamenters. 66. language of the Chriſtians. 9 All languages good vnto God. 4. Lawe of the Babilonians for thoſe that be ſicke. 3. Law of Numa. 38. Law of Demetrius. 70. To laugh at the Popes coſt. 20. A leſſon to the Prieſts. 99. The leaues of ye Fig tree of Adam. 106 The Legendes of the Papiſts. 78 Libitina Libitinari . 65 The Limbe. 97. The Limbe of the Infants. 29. Licence and lybertie of Dialogues. 13. The deuouring Lyon. 94. The Lyon of the Tribe of Iuda. 94. To ſhew lyingswithout truty. 10. To looſe ones langhing. 27. The louers of mans honour and traytours of the diuiNE. 12. Lucian and Lucianiſts. 10. Lucri bonus odor ex re qualibet. 41. M. Saynt Machalre. 95. Malo nodo, malus cuneus. 18. Manducation ſpirituall. 49. Manducation charuall. 50. Manducation Papiſticall. 50. The manner to mocke to the glorye of God. 12. The manner to ſpeak ioyfully in the holy Scriptures. 14. The infernall Mappes. 24. Merchants in the Church. 53. Mariage. 41. Mariage of Prieſtes. 81. Marrons which doe burye in the plague tuke. 65. Daungerous Marrianers. 93. Maſkes and moriſh daunces. 99. Maſſes long and ſhort. 63. Maſſes of hunters. 63. The Maſties and Haryers of Ieſus Chriſt. 20. The meanes to finde out truth. 2. The meanes of God. 35. The meanes to comfort the ye prieſts. 65 Members of Ieſus Chriſt. 50 The Memento of the dead. 81 Men more ioyfull & more priuiledged. 64 Mercury. 33. Merite and grace. 84. Metonimia. 51. The Milanois. 46. Mimus. 65. The true miniſters worthy of foode. 71. Minſtrells at the burials. 66 Minſtrells of lairus. 67 Falſe miracles. 44. Blacke Moonkes. 69 To take money for the Sacramentes & Eccleſiaſticall offices. 53. Mortui non mordent. 103. N. Nadhegrin. 26. The nature of of the truth. 11 Naulum. 45. Necrocorinthia. 41. Nerolatrie. 104. Natts and engins of the Prieſts. 93. Nero. 43 Micanor. 58. Nilometers. 91. The floud Nilus and the fertilitie of Aegypt. 91. Notaryes and Prothonotaryes. 77 Numa Pompilius. 75. O. Obiection. 83. Obolus. 45 The odoures and ſmell of a hogge. 7. Odilo Abbot. 24. Offer wine for the dead. 37 Office of a foole and babler. 9. Office of a Prophet. 14. Office for the dead. 87 One onely veritie 2. One Maſſe a day. 63. Opinion of the diuines. 23 Opinion of Iſidore. 23. Opinion of the Robins & Iewiſh Doctors touching the body. 101 Oppedere contra tonittus. 67 Orcus. 90 To take orders. 42 Orationes funebres. 77. The originall and beginning of prayers for the dead. 78 The ornaments of white ſepulchers. 52. Ouerflowing of Tiber. 91. Out of taſt of the bread of lyfe. 7. P. Panegyres. fol. 77. The payne of thoſe that are depriued from their buriall. 46. Papiſts excommunicated. 53. Al pipiſtical pricſts excommunicated. 53. To go into Paradiſe in poſt. 63. Paradiſe. 97. Parentalia. 25. The parents and friendes can doe nothing after one to dead. 101 Paſtors and Shepheards feeding them ſelues. 51. Pericles. 77. To perſecute Ieſus Chriſt. 50. Perſians. 58. Perſonages of Dialogues. 15 Peter Roſſet a Poet royall 58. Good Phiſicians. 64. Phiſicians of Soules. 31 Phiſitians and Poticaries of hell. 33 Pillers and deuourers. 51. The place of the ſoules of ye papiſts. 06. Plato and Virgile. 30. Pluto. 40. The poyſon of the Athenians. 4 . All Popes Antipopes & Antechriſts 88 The Pope maketh the Princes his hanguien. 58. Poinegranards and Bells hanging vppon the beſtement of the high Prieſte of the law. 73. Potage for the ſoules. 53. To praye for the Virgin Mary and the Saints. 82. Prayers for the lyuing. 94. To preach Ieſus Chriſt maſke wiſe or couertly. 13. Praeſeth bulletarum. 43 Preparation for the departure out this lyfe. 98 Preſence of Ieſus Chriſt. 49. It is forbidden the Prieſts to be at the burying of the dead. 67. The Prieſts of Cyble. 74. Prieſts Minſtrells. 67 The Prieſts doe not pray but for thoſe that be in Paradiſe. 82 Prieſts the churchyarde and ſepulchers both of men and Ieſus Chriſt. 47. Prieſts following the Iewes. 100 The pride of Caligula. 42. Priuiledge of euil Phiſicians and hangmen. 64 Priſoners of Purgatorie. 29. Priuiledges. 95. Priuation of the buriall 68. Profite of the buriall. 97. Profite in diſcouering abuſes. 17. Propertie of ſalt. 4. Prouiſes of God contrary vnto Papiſticall Purgatorie. 82. Prophecie agaynſt the Aegyptians. 93. The proſe of the dead. 83. A newe Prouerb of the Prieſts. 65 A Prouerbe. 65. A Prouerbe. velut canise Nylo. 6. Protonatory of name. 78 Purgatory. 32. 97 Purgatory of Ieſus Chriſt and that or the Pope. 56. Purgatory Platonieall. 30 Purgatory and his reuenewes. 23. Purgatory of the pockie. 38 The mouers of ſedition of purgatory. 55 How Purgatory is buried. 40. Purifications at the funeralls. 37 The puniſhment of thoſe that reiect the Goſpell & do go vnto a ſtrange fire. 56 Puniſhment of malefactors. 85. Puniſhment of Dauid. 83. Q. To quench fire with fire. 58. The quicke reputed for dead. 36 Nuaſting forbidden. 99. R. Repines and extorcions of Caligula. 42. Rationale diuinorum oſticiorum. 81 Raw earth. 44 Thoſe which doe fly from the reading of holy bookes. 6. Curious readers of fooliſh bookes. 7 Refounders or melters. 38. Religion of beggers, or begging Religion. 54 Remedy agaynſt the thunder and lyghtning. 75. Renullion & forgiuenes in this world 98 The Rentall of Purgatory. 39 To repoſe or remain Chriſt. 82. Reproch of the Payſant to ye prieſts. 65 Repugnauncio of doctrine. 94 Requiems of the poore and rich. 63. Requireſcant in pace. 38. Thr riches of Purgatory. 30 Three kindes of righteouſneſſe after Plato. 97 Ringing of belles. 68 To ring for the time. 75 Rule of ye diuine ſeruice for the dead. 63 Ruth and Booz. 97 Ruth and Noe •• . 100. S. Diuers ſacrafices ye dead for diuers cauſes. 10 . Sacrafice of Ieſus Chriſt 48 Salt in the baptiſute. 35. Salt of wiſedome. 5. Salt of the worde of God. 35. Salt of the Prieſts. 35. Salting and ſeaſoning of fooles. 35 The ſalutation of the ſouldier vnto the holy fathers. 39 Sampſon and Dauid. 94. The efficacie & ſtrength of Sathan. 106 Satiffacion for ſinnes. 8 Saturne and Rea. 59. All ſauors are good, ſo that money doe come. 41. The ſclpunder of the Phariſes. 18. Shepheards feeding themſelues. 1 Scotlande and Irelande. 27. Sellyng of offices. 43. Sellying of the buriall. 54. Senna therib. 94. Sennacherib Romaine. 94. Sepulcher of Ieſus Chriſt. 53. Sepulchers infatiable. 52. White or paynted ſepulchers. 52. To ſing after the dead. 87. Singing of Maſſes. 41. Signification and definition of an heritiche. 60. Signification of belles. 71. 74. Signification of hell. 17. Signification of the deepe lake. 89. Signe of the croſſe. 102 Sillogiſmus in Darif. 51 Simonſe and Simoniackes. 53. Sinnes of Princes. 30. Sinnes of the ſimple people. 30. Sinnes of Princes and Cyronts. 29. Siticines. 66. Soppe in the throate. 51. A ſoule drawenfrom hell. 90 A ſoule taken in a net. 89. To what ſerueth the waſhings of ſoules 36. The ſpertell of the prieſts. 35. The ſpertell of Ieſus Chriſt. 34. To ſprinkle the ſepulchers with water. 37. The ſpirite the author of purgatory 29. Stella Clericorum. 48. Stephen the ſixth. 88. Stlgmates. 103. Stile of the holy Ghoſt. 18 Stix. 9 The Philoſophicall ſtone. 55. Stiffocations. 36 Supper. 42. T. Tanners of mens ſkinnes. 65. Tannefat of the Prieſts. 64. Temple of God. 49. The cauſe of ye temptacions of y elect. 1. Tempus. 31 The Poeticall Theologie. 24 Thuringie. 26. Three differēces of ſinnes & the diuerſitie of the payues. 31 Tibicines. 66 Time of Gregory. 96 Time of peſtilence. 36 The tyrant of tyrants and the pillers of the vſurers. 30 Torches and candells at ye burialls. 33. Torches at the funeralls. 70. Troianus delyuered from hell. 9 . Tree of lyfe. 90. The true ſcience and cloquence. 7. Tribute of the brine and of y ſtewes. 41 Tribute of victualls & of proces. 42 Tribute of get pence and whores. 42. Tribute of Moriages. 42. Tribute of players. 42 The papiſtical tribute of victualls. 42 Tribute of whoores. 43 Tributaries of Prieſts. 54. Trophonius denne. 27. V. Vealegon arder. 51. Valut Canis é Nylo Prouerve. 6 The vertue of the truth. 30. The vertue of the habite of S. Fraunces. 105. Veſpiliones. 65 Voyatge of Saint Patrickes wells. 26. Vino rogum ne reſpargito. 38. Vſe holy water at burialls. 101 Vow of Herode. 81 W. To be in the way. 35. Waters of Aegypt. 95. Water of tribulation. 94. Holy water. 34. Holy water vnprofitable. 88. To watch the dead. 104. The olde woemen that doe keepe the children that be borne dead. 44 Weeping of the Crocodile. 64. Whoredome. 81. Widow aſkng counſayle of ye bells. 72. Canon witneſſe. 24. Too wiſe or ouer wiſe. 13. Holy woode. 75. Idle worde. 9. What good workes God requireth for the dead. 100 Good works don to ye dead by Booz. 100 Workes of mercy towards the dead. 97. What workes doe follow the dead. 85. What workes God requireth of vs and to what ende. 83 Workes of Angells and the elect. 84. Workes done for vs after we be dead. 85 Z. Zazel or Azazel a Diuell. 101. FINIS TABVLAE.

¶ THE SECOND PART of the Chriſtian diſputations.

By Maiſter Peter Viret.

Tranſlated out of French into Engliſh by Iohn Brooke of Aſshe next Sandwich.

MATHEVV. XV. A. IX.

¶ In vaine they worſhip me teaching doctrines which are nothing but mens precepts.

MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR Ē VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE printer's device of Thomas East, of a black horse standing on a wreath (McKerrow 206)

¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas Eaſt.

THE SVMME OF THE third Dialogue.

IN this thirde Dialogue by reaſon that Euſebius mainteineth and vpholdeth that the Prayers and Suſſrages for the dead, are of Gods ordinaunce, and of the inſtitution of the auneient Church, it is intreated off very amply by Theophilus and Hillarius, and ſhewed out pointe by pointe of what originall and beginning that did firſt begin, & by whom it was begun, and hath bene augmented, as well amonge the Panims, as the Iewes and Chriſtians: And what hath bene the cuſtomes and ceremonies of the one & the other, as well in their mourning and ſorrowing for the dead, as in their Anniuerſaries, Feaſtes & Obſequies for the dead. And bicauſe that there is great conformitie betweene the feaſtes dedicated vnto the dead, as well among the Panims as the papiſticall Chriſtians, we will declare euidently by conferring the one with the other, not onely the agreeing that theſe feaſtes haue togother, but alſo that which is amongeſt many other ceremonyes ioyned with them, and depending vpon them: The which haue bene borrowed of the Panims by the papiſticall Chriſtians, or at the leaſt wife the imitation is ſo cleere and euident, that there is none but that he may eaſely iudge, that they proceeded all from one ſpirite. For to manifeſt and declare then thys ſame the better, and for to make it the playnelyer to bee ſeene, we will declare pointe by pointe the conformityes which are betweene the one and the other, touching the diuerſe feaſtes and dayes dedicated vnto the deade, and touching the forbiddinge of marriage at certeine times. Afterwardes the conformitie of ſome feaſtes and Idols of the Panims and Papiſtes, and the feaſt of the candels and diuers puriſications obſerued of the one part and of the other: And the conſecrations of Torches, Waxe, Waxcandles, Salt, holy Water, Fire, Aſſhes and many other ſuche diuers matters, by the which euory one may eaſely iudge, who hath ben the authour of the popiſh Ceremonies: and what difference there is betweene the auncient Panim Rome, and the Romiſh Church, ſuch as it is at this preſent. We doe call this Dialogue, Anniuerſaries, or yeares mindes, bicauſe that it maketh mention of many Ceremonies, which yearelye haue bene obſerued among the ſuperſtitious and Idolaters about the dead, as of the ſtraunge Gods.

¶ Now for to enter in the matter, Theophilus beginneth after this manner.

THE THIRD DIALOGVE which is called Anniuerſaries or yeares mindes. THeophilus,

I am very glad bicauſe that you are all come in ſo good time, & chiefly of Euſebius. For I greatly feared that he was offended with our talke and dyſputations that we had yeſterday. But as farre as I can perceiue, not with ſtanding that he be very much rooted in his olde opinions & ſuperſtitions, yet neuer thelſſe I know that he differeth much from a heape of obſtinate and wilfull fooles, which haue no reaſon at all to defende their cauſe, nor know howe to take any other weapons then opinions and obſtinations, for to fight againſt the truth, neither know how to finde any other meane to vanquiſh it and to reuenge themſelues thereoff, then to hurt and wrong thoſe which do propound it vnto them, when all other reaſon ſayleth, and to ſhutte their eares againſt the ſame, to the ende they vnderſtand it not.

Euſebius,

I came the more willingly, bicauſe I thought my ſelfe better armed then I was yeſterday, and that I can fight better to day, and to be reuenged & haue more aduauntage vpon you. For I was yeſterdaye ſodeinely taken and aſſayled, béeing vnprouided, neyther did I thincke that wée ſhoulde deſcende into ſuch a fielde to fight: or otherwiſe I would haue come more armed, and better in order, for to defende my ſelfe and to fight againſt you.

Hillarius.

Wée dyd thincke no more of it then you, neyther were wée prepared nor armed for the ſame.

Euſebius.

I beléeue you well. Wherefore I doe knowe nowe by experience that the ſame whiche is ſayde of all you is true. For it ſéemeth that you haue all the holye Scripture vppon your fingers endes, and that you haue neuer ſtudyed in any other thing, of which I meruayled greatlye, in hearinge you ſpeake, chyeſlye Hillary, which is none of the greateſt ſtudyentes in the worlde, at the leaſtwiſe in the holy Scriptures. For hee hath alwayes loued better to carry a Virgile or an Ouid in his ſléeue, then a Bible. And yet neuertheleſſe hée is nowe a Doctour, as if he had paſſed Doctour in Sorbonne. As for Theophilus, I am not ſo much abaſhed: For all his lyfe time hée hath bene very deuoute, and hathe alwayes loued to reade in the Bible. I am ſorry for nothing, but for this: that hée is become a Lutherian, and that hée is nowe ſo contrary vnto our Mother the holy Church: For I would neuer haue thought that he would haue ſo fought agaynſt the good fayth, and the auncient lawe: But I truſt, if God vouchſafe, that howſoeuer armed you bée, you ſhall not finde mée to daye ſo féeble as before, nor you ſhall not fight wyth mée ſo muche at your eaſe, although that you bée two againſt one, yea, almoſt all thrée. For Thomas is ſo variable, that I know not of which ſide hée will ſticke too.

Thomas.

Yet I am not neuertheleſſe a Lutherian, but thincke my ſelfe to bée as good a Chriſtian as thou arte. Defende thy ſelfe valiauntly, and thou ſhalt ſée if I bée contrary vnto thée, ſo that thou doe ſpeake wyth reaſon. It is very true, that I cannot very much helpe and ſuccour thée. For thou doeſt well knowe that I am an ignoraunt man, and that I haue not much ſtudied neither in diuine nor yet humaine bookes, but I alwayes followed the good fayth as others dyd: ſauing that I had ſometime ſome doubt in my conſcience, and yet more now then euer I had, ſéeing the differences which are in the Chriſtianitie.

Hillarius.

But after that wée haue hearde Euſebius, wee will giue thée place to expounde it, as thou thy ſelfe haſt required. And therfore friende Euſebius enter now & begin to fight, for as far as I can perceiue, thou comeſt not wyth falſe enſeignes, nor without hauinge thy harneyes bright. But what booke is that thou holdeſt in thy hande?

Euſebius.

It is Eccius.

Hillarius.

Eccius. When theu diddeſt name vnto mée that greate Captaine and maiſter Gunner of the papiſticall armye, thou wouldeſt make mee to tremble and quake, if that I were fearefull: But I comfort my ſelfe againe in one thinge, that althoughe that it bee prouided wyth great Canons and Artillarye, Artillery of ye Papiſts yet neuertheleſſe it is euill prouided and furniſhed with pouder and ſhot, and there bée no pellets for to make any great breach, but accompt it as the Harquebuts, which are onely charged wyth paper, without hauinge either leade or ſtone wythin it, which giue greate ſtrokes for to make women and little children afrayde. But they hurt no man, neither doe they make the men of warre afraide, nor it cannot pearce thorow their harneis.

Euſebius.

I will compell thée by and by to ſpeake otherwyſe, and I wyll make thée to féele it better then thou winneſt.

Hillarius.

I ſtaye vppon nothing, but that thou dooe put to the fire, for to burne vppe and conſume that fire of Purgatorye, which wyll bée altogether put out and quenched, if thou doe not let it. In the meane time I wyll make my bulwarke and fortreſſe of Theophilus, for to receiue the firſt blowes, and I wyll not depart from the ſkirmiſh, but when I ſhall ſée myne aduauntage. Neuertheleſſe, I wyll yet ſerue thée in ſtéede of a Trumpet, for to make thoe to enter into battaile, and to gyue the Allarume vnto thine aduerſary. Begin then to ſtrike.

Euſebius.

Before wée enter any further in the combat, I woulde gladly, ſith that you condenme the prayers and ſuffrages, whiche the Churche both make for thoſe that bée deade, that you tell vnto mée, howe it is poſſible that the Church coulde haue erred ſo long time in that matter, and who hath bene the firſte authoure and muentour of that errour and herefie (ſyth that you ſo call it) and after wardes I hope for my parte, that I wyll proue you the contrarye, by ſuche reaſons and authorities, that you ſhall bée conſtrayned, to accuſe your ſelues of errour, and hereſie, and to retourne vnto the fayth of the holy Churche, and to confeſſe, that ſhee hath not taken the cuſtome to praye for the deade of hir owne fantaſie, wythout beeinge well aſſured that God hath commaunded it by his woord, and that Purgatory was well allowed by the ſame.

Theophilus.

If you had well conſidered and kepte in minde, that whiche we haue already ſpoken off, that is, of the cuſtome whiche hath bene amongeſt the Panims in their funerall Drations and prayſinges, and howe the auncient Church hath chaunged that manner of dooinge into a better vſe. You ſhoulde eaſely knowe what hathe The beginning of prayers and ſuffrages for the dead. bene the beginninge of the commemoration of the prayers and ſuffrages for the dead, and that the cuſtome of the auncient Fathers hath differed very muche, yea, and altogether contrary vnto that which is nowe in the Popiſh Church: But bycauſe that the ſame hath bene alreadye intreated off amongeſt vs amply inoughe, I wyll not reintreate nor rehearſe it agayne. But for to ſatiſfie thy queſtion which thou haſt nowe propounded, I wyll onely aduertiſe thée that thoſe errours & abuſes, and that ſuperſtitious remembraunce and full of blaſphemyes, ſuch which we do now ſée to be practiſed about ye dead, did take great force and were greatly multiplyed by Pope Pelagius, Pope Pelagius. who made an ordinaunce, much dyffering and contrary vnto the cuſtome of his predeceſſors, and of the auncient Church: After whom ſuccéeded Gregory the greate, Gregory 1. who hath not amended and corrected the abuſes & errours, but hath ſtyll nouriſhed, augmented and increaſed them, and hath bene the cauſe of many Idolatries and ſuperſtitions, which haue brought great hurt and domage vnto Gods Church. And leaſt that you ſhoulde thincke that I ſpeak without reaſon & authoritie, iudge a little of that which Nauclerus witneſſeth, that Gregory the third hath written vnto Boniface being Legate and Ambaſſadour into Nauclerus Gregory. 3 Boniface. Almayne, to wit whether that Chriſtians maye offer for theire deade, which were truely Chriſtians: And hath commaunded that the Prieſtes ought to make commemoration of them. Dne may very well preſume by that aduertiſement and commaundement that which Gregory made vnto Boniface, touching this matter, that it is not Maſſe for the dead. long agoe that the Maſſe hath begonne to bee a ſacrifice for the dead, and that the inſtitution is not ſo auncient as ſome men do thinke it to bee: at the leaſt-wiſe that Ieſus Chriſt and his Apoſtles haue not bene the author thereoff. For Boniface would not haue kept it ſecret in that time. Wherefore I giue more credite, vnto thoſe whiche haue written that Pope Pelagius hath bene the author, inuentor and promoter of thoſe ſuffrages and prayers, the which we ſée dayly yet in vſe amonge the Chriſtians, and we call them the good déedes for the dead, then to any of thoſe which haue followed the Apoſtles.

Euſebius.

If you had reade ouer and ruminated the auncient doctors of the Churche, you ſhall not finde that doctrine ſo newe, but you woulde ſpeake otherwiſe and ſhould know that the Churche hath followed it of long time before that Pelagius or Sainct Gregory were borne. Amd, de obitu Theodoſ. Wherefore then did Sainct Ambroſe make mention, writing of the death of the Emperour Theodoſius, of the firſt, ſeuenth, thirty and fourty day that the Churche did celebrate, making remembraunce of the dead, and for what cauſe they did the ſame? of whome the wordes are written in the decrées after this manner. Bicauſe that Daies dedicated to the dead. 13. queſt. 2. cap Quta. ſome haue vſed to obſerue the thirde caye, other ſome the ſeuenth, and others the thirty in the office of the dead. Let vs conſider what thing yt leſſon in the ſcripture teacheth vs. It ſaith: After that Iacob was dead, Ioſeph commaunded Geneſ. 58. a. 3 his ſeruants that they ſhould bury him: And the The buriall & mourning for lacob. children of Iſrael buried him and the forty dayes beeing accompliſhed, for ſo were the daies of the burial compted & they lamented ſeuen dayes. We ought to follow that ſolemnitie, the wh che the holy ſcripture deſcribeth vnto vs It is alſo written after this manner in Deuteronomium. Deut. 34. c. 8 Mourning for Moſes. that the children of Iſrael lamented Moſes, and did wepe thirty dayes, and then the mourning was ended, heth thoſe two obſeruations haue then authoritie, by the which the neceſſary office of piety and humanity is accompliſhed. Doe you not ſée here plainely by the words of Sainct Ambroſe, that already in his time the Churche did the office and commemoration of the dead, and did celebrate in their memory certaine dayes, and yet the auncients haue not inſtituted them after the inutation and example of the Panyms and Idolaters, as you ſay and affirme, but after yt imitation of the auncient Patriarkes and Prophets and of the people of God?

Theophilus.

I am abaſhed, I knowe not whether I A ſvver to the obiection. ſhall ſpeake it of the ignorance & mallice of your doctors. For if they vnderſtande that Saincte Ambroſe hathe allowed that which they at this day do vphold and maintaine, they do greatly erre, and ſhewe themſelues to be verye ignoraunt. Alſo if they vnderſtand his intention and meaning they are very malicious and wicked, to peruerte and marre the ſence of the ſame, for to maintaine their abuſes, and alwayes the more to kéepe the poore people in errour. Firſte, they well perceiue and ſée that Sainct Ambroſe maketh no mention, neither of Purgatory, Lamenting and ſorrovving for, the dead. nor of Maſſe for the dead, and that that place cannot ſerue but for the ſorrow that men take for the dead. For yet in that time, the Churche approched néerer vnto the puritie of the primatiue Churche, and was not ſo muche corrupted, as ſhe hath bene afterwards, ſithence the time of Pope Pelagius and of Gregory the greate. This then that he maketh mention of the firſt, ſeuenth, thirty, and forty daye, in his booke and ſermon that hée made of the death and buriall of Theodoſius, is not ſet forth by him, for to nouriſhe and holde the pepole in the ſuperſticions of the Panyms, as you doe, but rather to draw them backe from it, and for to induce and leave the Chriſtians vnto more greater honeſty and modeſtye, to the ſorrowe that they ought to haue for the dead. For that cauſe did he propound and ſet foorth the example of the Iſraelites, not that he woulde thereby make a law vnto the Chriſtian people, that they ſhoulde mourne, ſeuen, thyrty, nor forty dayes, bicauſe that the Iſraelites haue mourned ſo many dayes for lacob, Moſes, Aaron and Marie their ſiſter, & yet leſſe for to cauſe Maſſes to be ſaid, and to banket and make the prieſts broken, as they do Numeri. 10. a. 1. dayly, at the Portuaries and Anniuerſaries. For then he ſhould teache the Chriſtian people to playe the Iewes, The Chriſtian lybertie. and ſinne againſt the Chriſtian liberty, if hee woulde of all the examples of the Scripture, and of the thinges done by the Iſraelites, draw out & take lawes and ſtatutes, for to commaunde them vnto the Chriſtian people as neceſſarie and ordeyned of God. For firſt of all God neuer hath defined, nor determined by his lawe, certaine dayes, nor yet to lament and mourne for the dead, nor for to make any commemoration of them, as it appeareth very well, by the examples aſore alledged. For the Iſraelites themſelues haue not kept a certaine number of dayes at the mourninge of Iacob, Moſes, Aaron and of Marie. For they did kéepe Iacob in Geneſ. 50. a. 3 Aegypt fortie dayes, after that hee was enbaumed: and the Aegyptians bewept him Ixx, dayes. He was carried into Hebron: afterwards his ſonnes bewept him ſeuen dayes in Atad. But Moſes, Aaron and Marie their Deut 34. c. Numerl. 20. 2, 1. ſiſter were beewept euerye one of them thirty dayes. Thou doeſt ſee alreadie here, that they are not very ſuperſtitious in the dayes, and that ſome time they haue vſed The ordinary time for y mourning of the Iſraelites. Eccle. 22. b. 13 eyther more or leſſe. It ſhould ſéeme that their ordiuary was but for ſeuen dayes. For it is written: Seuen dayes do men mourne for him that is dead, but the lamentation ouer the vnwiſe ſhoulde endure all the dayes of their life. But when it is for ſome noble perſonne, as for a Prince or a Prophet, or anye man of great eſtimation, and renome, they woulde of cuſtome prolonge theyr mournynges vntyll thyrtie dayes. But they woulde not wyliyngly paſſe béeyond it as wée ſée here in theſe three examples of Moſes. Aaron and Marie who were bewept and lamented of the The tranſlation of 〈◊〉 in the 〈◊〉 Canaā. people of Iſrael, aſmuche and more then anye other euer were. The mourning of Iacob was a little more lōger, bycauſe he was carried to be buryed a great way, and that they carried him from the land of Aegypt into the land The holyneſſe of the lande. of Canaan: not that they eſteemed the land of Canaan more holy then that of Aegypt, as touching his nature, or that The vvitneſſe of ye faith of the Patriarches it had any more vertue, for the health of the body or ſoule of him that was buryed there, as the ſuperſtitious Chriſtians and poore ignorant do iudge of the earth in ye churchyarde, bicauſe that it was bleſſed and halowed by their Biſhops and Prieſts. But they did that, for to witnes in Act. . 3 Heb. 11. b. 8 the article of the dead, the hope that they had in the promiſe made vnto Abraham of that lande, and for to confirme their ſucceſſors in the ſame, to the ende they ſhoulde The bying of the fielde of Ephron. Geneſ. 23. d. S. be certaine & aſſured that they ſhould poſſeſſe it, although that they neuer receauid one foote during their life, except that poſſeſſion which Abraham bought for to make a burial place for him, his wife and all his family. This he did, that it ſhould bee a witnes vnto all his ſucceſſors, that they ſhould be heires of that lande of which he hath The tranſlation of the bones of Iacob. Geneſ. 50. d. 25 alreadye taken poſſeſſion. For that ſame cauſe alſo, Iacob commaunded and ordayned in his teſtament, that his body ſhould not be buried in Aegypt, but yt it ſhoulde be carried into the land of Canaan, in the ſepulcher of hys fathers. And Ioſeph his ſonne following that example hath alſo commaunded the children of Iſraell, to heepe his bones, vntill they enter into that lande? not for to made reliches of them, and to encloſe them in golde or ſiluer for to worſhip them, al the while that they ſhalbe in Aegypt, The holyneſſe of the lande of Canaan. or in the lande of Canaan, after that they ſhalbée aryued in the ſame, but for to bury them there: not for the opinion that hee had of the worthyneſſe of his ſepulture, or of the holynes of the lande. For then it was inhabited of ye Panyms & Inſidels, o the Canaas, Amorrians, & others like whiche were ſo abbominable, bicauſe of theire erecrable crymes, that God could, not ſuffer them. but hath exterminated, dryuen away and deſtroyed them by his iuſt Denl. S. a iudgement, for to giue that land as an heritage vnto his people. But Ioſeph, although that hee dyed in Aegypt woulde firſt witnes, that he beléeued perfectly in the promiſe of God. And for more greater probation of his faith, hath left vnto them that witnes of the ſame, for to aſſure them that they ſhoulde enter there once, ſith that hee woulde not bee buried, vntill ſuche time as they were come thyther, for to inherite the promiſed land. That was almoſt ſuch a witnes, as that of Ieremie, in bying the field Iere. 31. 8. 44 The bying of I cremy of his couſin, which was in the lande of Iuda: willing thereby to declare and ſhewe foorthe, that the people then were in captiuitie, and almoſt all of them did diſpaire neuer to returne into their land (notwithſtanding that the Lord had promiſed vnto them the contrary) which was vnto him certaine & ſure of the promiſe of ye Lorde. Wherefore he would giue vnto them a good hope of their returning, promiſed chiefely by Eſay long time before the captiuitie, and by Ieremy and Ezechiell prophecying at the time that the captiuitie approched, and during the ſame: therefore did he buy that field and that poſſeſſion, for to teſtifie by that buying, that hee had a good hope of his returne, and that he was aſſured by the word of God, what ſoeuer infidelitie was in the people: or otherwiſe hee had bene a foole and not well aduiſed, to put his money in hazarde to be loſte, and himſelfe to be mocked, and accomted for a lyer & a falſe prophet. Paking then that buying to ye intent, it was vnto him as a ſacrament, euen as the buriall of Ioſeph deferred vntill the entring vnto the lande of Canaan, the whiche he woulde not deferre for any thing what ſoeuer it be, for to be depriued from the buriall ſo long time, and from the honoure whiche is due vnto the body, according to the ordinance of God, the whiche hée would by no meanes reſiſt. Geneſ. 33. d. 19

Thomas.

You ſpeake of many things, but how doe I know whether the ſame ought to bee vnderſtanded after that ſort as you expound it.

Theophilus.

If thou doubt of my expoſition, reade the xi. Chapter of Sainct Pauls Cpiſtles vnto ye Hebrewes, Hebrt. 11. a 1. and thou ſhalt ſée whether the Apoſtle doth not ſet thée in ye way for to come vnto ye intelligence and interpretation.

Euſebius.

But you ſhew not ye cauſe, wherefore they obſerued certaine daies for to finiſh their funerals & mournings.

Theophilus.

I haue alreadie anſwered thée, that they The cauſe of ye dayes appoynted for moarning. did not the ſame for any ſuperſtition that they had to the number as ye Panyms. For the Patriarches & Prephets were not ſo much of the ſect of Pithagoras, nor ſuch great obſeruers of the numbers, as the Papiſticall doctors, and Durand. in ratio. diui. off. lib. 7. Rub. de off. mor namely Durand, who yelding the reaſon wherefore the Chriſtians keepe certaine daies dedicated to the commemoration of the dead, declareth the miſteries contayned in the number of them, and hath written after this manner. Note that ſome celebrate the memory of the dead Ternarij. Septena ly Numerl. 19b. 11. the thyrde day, for to repreſent the buriall and reſurrection of Ioſus Chriſte, or in the honoure of the Trinity. Others cauſe Maſſes to be ſonge the ſeuenth day, or ſeuen dayes continually. Afterwardes they proue that the ſame is taken of that place which is written in ye booke of Nombers: that he whiche ſhall touche the body of a dead man, ſhalbe defiled and vncleane ſeuen dayes. Is not the The philoſophy of Pithagoras The cauſe of ye moarning of the Iſraelises. ſame very fitte for to proue the ſeuen dayes feaſte of the Prieſtes? I do omitte a thouſande other dreames, which are more mad, that one cannot belééue them. Hée practiſeth a Philoſophy and a Theology likewiſe vppon the ninth, thirde and fourth and the day of the yeares minde, to which he maketh thoſe numbers better to agrée, then of ware, and better then euer Pithegoras did. For his Philoſophy had more reaſon and doctrine. But that which the Iſraelites did, I thinke that the ſame was none otherwiſe, but for an honeſty and cluditie whiche ought to be among the people of God. For they had no expreſſe law, nor commaundement proper for the ſame, & ye ſhould make them to be ſubiect vnto thē And although they had a commaundement, as they haue of their other ceremonialand ciuile laws, we ſhould not be yet neuertheleſſe therfore Liberty of the Goſpell. bounde, no more then we he to them, but ſhould abide in the libertie in the whiche Ieſus Chriſt hath called vs. Now if we be deliuered from ye ſubiection of ceremonies & lawes which God himſelf hath expeſſely cōmaunded, by a more ſtronger reaſon ought we to be exēpted, & to abide & continue in our liberty, in ye that hath bene leſt in liberty vnto ye people, which was yet vnder ye ſeruitude & bōdage of ye law. Wherfore I thinke ye the Iſraelites did kéepe yt cuſtome among thē, for the ſelfe ſame cauſe yt Ioſeph al, ledged ſpeaking of Moſes: De hath alſo prouided in the funeralles Ieſeph againſte Appion. li. 2 The lavv for the ludaieall funeralls. of the dead, to that ende that men do not celebrate ſumpteous obſequies & burtals, & that men do not beſtow greate & coſtly buildings of ſepuleres, but hath cō maunded, ye the houſehold ſeruants of him which ſhould be dead, ſhould adminiſter ye neceſſarie things, for to carry the dead to ye graue. He hath alſo ordeined, as a lawful thing that all thoſe ye be a liue ſhould aſſemble themſelues together, when ye any perſon ſhould be dead, & ſhould mourne & lament ouer him. He hath alſo cōmaunded, ye the domeſticall & thoſe of his houſe ſhould be purified after yt burying. Although yt we read not all theſe words of Ioſeph, ſo expreſſed & placed in ye bookes of Moſes, yet neuertheleſſe Ioſeph, which was himſelf a Iew, & a man of great knowledge. & well ſéene in the cuſtomes & Iudaical things, was not ignorant of the manner of their burials & funerals, & the cauſes wherfore they did all thoſe things. He maketh The vvater of ſeparation conſecrated vvith the aſshes of a young Heifer, Numeri. 19. c. 11 no mention, no more then Moſes, ye one ſhould not make ſacrifice nor offring for the health and ſaluation of the dead, nor that one ſhoulde ſprinkle it with holy water, and with the conſecrated water that they dyd héepe mingled with the aſſhes of a younge Heyfer, for the purificatiō of yt lyuing, not of ye dead, but witneſſeth only, yt the domeſtical or thoſe of yt houſe which wer aſſiſting & helping at yt funerals & burials, or touched ye body ſh •• ld be purified, by the ceremonyes ordeined of God, principally by yt conſecrated water, with yt aſſhes of an Heyfer the Purification af,+ter the funerals. Hebr 9. d. 13 which was a figure as witneſſeth the Apoſtle, of the bloud of Ieſus Chriſt, by which we are purified: who hath done that whiche the water and the aſſhes of the Heyfer, could not do. Wherefore we haue no more néede of ſuche ceremonyes, ſith that they are accompliſhed and fulfilled by Ieſus Chriſt: And yet much leſſe of other new, inuented by mans preſumption. That then which the Iſraelites uſed certaine ceremonies and mournings about the dead, had two reſpectes. The firſt was, to the ende that the people of God ſhould not bee like unto the barbarous and heathen people, as thoſe of whom we haue already ſpoken off, whiche did make leſſe account of the bodies of yt dead men, yea of theire owne parents and friendes, then of the carcaſes of brute beaſts. Agame, euen as the Lord would that his people ſhould be farre from ſuch inhumanity and The means that vve muſt keepe in mourning & at the funeralls, and the v.ces of the Panims. barbarouſnes, ſo would hee prouide on the other ſide, for another greate vice, which raigned amongſt the Panims, who did to much excéede in ſorowing and mourning, in ceremonies, ſuperſtitions, Idolatries, and with to greate expenſes about their dead and funerals. Beſides all this Barue 6. c 30. Leult. 1. & 21. Heodo. in Enterpe. 3. Reg 18. e. 28 they did many things not ſeemely to men. For ſome of them did rounde and poll their heades, beards & heares, the mourning, as Herodotus witneſſeth of yt Aegyptians. There were alſo which did hurte and pricke themſelues with lancets, and made the bloud to come forth of Theod. in Leui ticum, 19. Apul. aſinl. aur lt. 1 1. Cice Tuſc. q. 3. Leuit. 21. a. 3. their bodies, in the honoure of the dead, & for to witneſſe their dolor, after the ſame ſort as the Pricſts of Baal did in praying to their God Baal. And the Prieſtes of Cyble in lyke manner, who in that pointe followed them. They did alſo make markes in theyr fleſhe, with greate ſuperſtition the whiche thinges the Lord did forbid his people, namely in Leuiticus. And therefore thoſe good patriarches and prophets, who were prudent and wiſe, and guyded thorowe the ſpirite of God, haue found a good meanes to let and ſtoppe thoſe vices and exceſſe which they did commit aſwell on the one ſide as on the other, amongſt the Panyms. For if the Panims themſelues haue regarded that, and haue néede lawes and ſtatutes, for to correct the vndecent things that was there commytted: And the pompe and foolyſti coſt, that men beſtowed about ſuch banities, we muſt not be abaſhed, if the people of God, who ought to be the rule and moderation of all others haue ſo well prouided for the ſame, for to kéep a meane in all things. For it is not poſſible that man, how ſpirituall ſoeuer he be, can rob or take from man, all humayne aflection, but that there abydeth alwayes a meruaylous deſire in his heart, of the perſon abſent whom he loued, eſpecially when thorowe death it is ſeperated from him. Sith then that one cannot The lymitte of humain affectiō. plucke away altogether that affection from mans heart, he muſt at the lcaſtwiſe ſet ſome lymitte; to the ende that he excede not meaſure, as the Panims did. For ſo long as the affection is too great, inſomuch that it draweth vs from God, and maketh vs to ſtaye more vnto the creatures then is néedefull, it cannot pleaſe God. And therefore euen as the Lord leaueth vs to be man, and ſuffereth our humayne affections, which haue ſome agreeing with his nature, and are the ſeede and prickes of vertues, ſo will he not ſuffer them to flowe ouer, or aryſe aboue the lymittes of reaſon and honeſtie, as we haue already touched in another place. The ſame then that the The time preſcribed for the mourning Heorewes and Iſraelites had ſome certayne number of dayes, for to mourne and lament their parents and friends that were dead, was not for to reſtrayne euery one generally and perticularly to lament and mourne one ſo many dayes, without adding or dimimſhing any, as if the number of the dayes were neceſſary; or that it conteineth any relygion and holyneſſe in it: but to the ende that thoſe which ſhould mourne and lamont, if one coulde not kéepe them from it altogether, without doyng greate biolence to their affections, at the leaſtwiſe, they ſhould not paſſe that lymit and time, which was bſed and preſcribed, and which was long inough and ſufficient, for to ſatiſfie their heart and to mitigate their ſorrow and heauineſſe.

Wherefore I doubt not but that Saynt Ambroſe hadde The infention and meaning of S. Ambroſe. regard unto that honoſtie and modeſtie, not for to induce the chriſtian people unto Iewiſhnes, but to follow rather the erample of the holy Patriarches and Prophets, then of the Panims. As we may manifeſtly iudge by his own wordes, without ſeekinge the gloſe and interprctation any further. For firſt of al he erhorted not yt people to play vnto god for the ſoule of Theodoſius, but witneſſeth euidétly, ye he accōpteth & holdeth him to be ſaued, & affirmeth many times ye his ſoule is at reſt, in lyght & felicitie with Ieſus Chriſt his Lord. Alſo he teacheth not ye people to in uocate & pray vnto him, not withſtanding ye he holdeth him as a ſaint in ye kingdō of god: but admontſheth to pay vnto the childre, ye which they do owe vnto ye father, ſaying: they owe him more after he is dead, then when he was liuing, After wards declareth vnto thē ye meanes how thei ought to acquite & order themſelues towards their good Prince, after his death: that is, in commending his young children whom he hath lefte to be heires of the Cmpire, and that they declare towards them the fidelytie, faith, loyaltie, and loue that they had towards their father. It is ſufficiently declared ye ther is no meane more proper, nor any good déedes more agréeable nor more profitable for the dead, then to haue in commendacion and prayſe their ſucceſſours, children and friendes. On the other ſide, hée comforteth the children, and chiefely goeth aboute to niltigate the doloure and ſorrow of Honorius, bicauſe that it was not lawfull for him to accompanye the relyckes, that is to ſaye, the other parte of the body of his father, which was carryed to bée buryed vnto Conſtantinople, as they accuſtomed to doe with the bodyes of great Princes. Wherein it appeareth wherevnto Sayncte Ambroſe pretended. For leſte vs not thinke that he hath bene of an other mynde and opinion then the other Doctors, which haue written both in his time & before him. And to this ende that you ſhould the better knowe that I ſpeake not ſo wythout reaſon, gyue eare and marlie what other Doctors ſayes, which is contayned in the Decrées themſelues, and adioyned immediately after that which yon declared of Saynt Ambroſe, the which wyll ſerue vs for the declaration of the ſame, and conſormation of nſy worbes. Firſt you haue Saynt Gyprian, who Cyprian. 13. . 2. Quam prepoſte rum. Mourning vndecent for Chriſtians. declareth vnto the Chriſtians that they oughte not to bee ſorrowfull and ſadde, neyther for their death nor yet for that of others, ſaying: Is it not a ſtrainge and a peruerſe thing, to require that Gods wyll be done, and that we doe not obey the ſame, when he calleth vs out of this world, but doe repugne and reſiſt it, and as peruerſo and rebellyous ſeruaunts wée are brought before our Lorde with ſorow and mourning, and béeing coliſtrayned thorow the bonde of neceſſitie, not willyngly and with a good hearte. And we woulde bée honoured with heauenly rewardes by him, vnto whome wée doe come maugre our ſelues. And how many times is it reuealed vnto me, and commaunded of GOD, that I doe proteſt dayly and preath openly, that we ought not to lament and mourne for our bretheren which are called and delyuered from this worlde by the Lorde, ſith that we know that they are not loſt, but are onely ſent before, going for to ouer goe vs, euen as thoſe doe, who doe walke and swimme.

Vnto this alſo agreeth Saynt Iohn Chriſoſtome, who Chriſo ad pepu Hom. 69. & 70 Item in Iohn c. 11. ad Hebr ca. 2. Hom. 4 in many places hath rebuked and coereted the immoderate mourninge of the Chriſtians, ſaying amonge other thinges, I doe not forbid that we ſhould not mourne for thoſe which are departed out of this worlde, Lette vs lament and bewayle them, but not undecently and unhoneſtly: not in tearing our haires, uncouering of our armes, cutting our eyes, not in wearyng blacke gownes, but onely in our hearte, ſheading foorth inwardely bytter teares. Alſo lice doth cleerelye ſhewe, that to lament Chriſoſto. in Erſt. ad Hebr. 13 q. 2. vbichnq3 Pſa. 24. a. 1 and mourne for the deade, proceeded but of wealteneſſe and for wante of fayth, ſaying: In whatſoeuer place wée bee buryed in, the earthe is the Lords and all things that therem is. That that hée oughte to doe doth: But to lament, mourne and wéepe for thoſe which are departed out of this lyfe, commeth of weakneſſe and for want of heart and courage. And it muſt not be vnderſtanded that it procéedeth from any other thing, then of a deſpayre of the reſurrection to come. Therefore the Apoſtle ſpade not ſimply, we would not 1. Theſſa. 4. c. 1 . haue you ignoraunt, concerning them that are fallen a ſléepe that ye ſorrow not, but he addeth moreouer, as other doe which haue no hope. It is not then forbidden vs to mourne and bewayle the deade, through a compaſſion and affection of pietie and a regarde of humanitie, as wée doe reade, that ſome Saynts and holy men, haue bewailed (after Gods lawe). the funeralls of others. Therefore Anaſtacius in the ſame place hath ſayd. Thoſe which know Anaſta. 13. . 2 habent. not nor looke for any other life, & haue no truſt ye from this world there is a place for to go vnto a better eſtate, haue peraduenture iuſt excuſe of their long griefe and ſorrowe: But we which doe beléeue and teach the ſame, ought not to be ſorry for thoſe which dye, to the ende, that the ſame which towards other hath appearaunce of pietie and compaſſion be in the greater fault. For that is a kinde of diſtruſt, agaynſt that that euery one doth preach. And immediately after is alleadged the example of Ieſus Chriſt, the example of Chriſt. Iohn. 11. c. 13. who bewailed not the death of Lazarus, but bewailed him when he would rayſe him agayne, for to retourne vnto the miſeryes of this world.

Hillarius,

Certeynly if we did well conſider the euills which are in this miſerable world, and the fragilytic and miſery of mans nature, and if we had true ſayth to the Goſpell of Ieſus Chriſt, and true hope of our reſurrection, and of the eternall lyfe, we ſhoulde haue more occaſion to follow the cuſtome of the Thracians, then of other Danims, and for a more iuſt occaſion, The cuſtome of the Thracias herodet in Paler. Max. li. 2. ca. 1 For if they, which had not a certeyne hope, nor aſſurance that there is an other lyfe then this héere, dyd bury their friends yt were dead with ioy & gladnes, ſaying that they wer bery glad yt thei were deliuered from ye euils and wickedneſſe of of this lyfe: And on the contrary, did wéepe and lament at the birth of their children, lamenting them bicauſe of ye euills to the which they did: n •• comminge into this worlde: Haue not wée more 〈◊〉 cauſe to reioyce, when that the Lord calleth us our friendes, and draweth them from that darke priſon, for to lodge them in his celeſtiall Places? And to deſire with the holy philip. l. d. 25. Apoſtle to be diſſouled ſo? to be with Chriſt? If we wil not followe the doctrine and examples of the holy Scriptures, at the leaſtwiſe let vs not doe worſe then the Panims. And if we will follow them, let vs follow the moſt reaſonable, and not the moſt maddeſt. thoſe of Mirſellea, in the time that they were yet Panims, we a great deale more modeſt and ſober, and leſſe ſuperſticious and Idolaters in their burialls, and about their dead, then thoſe are now at this preſent time which doe follow the papiſticall doctrine. For the auncient maſsilians did bury their dead The auncient cuſtome of the Maſsilians. Val. Max. li. 2 cap. 1. without great ſorrow and lamentation. The ſorrow and mourning of their furenalls continued but one day, without adding too any other ceremony, but a domeſtical ſacrifice, and in making a banket, not for the Prieſts, but for their parents and friends. But now I warrant you that the Prieſts will not acquite them for the price. Beholde what they haue gained with the papiſtical doctrine: which hath leſſe reaſon, then the coſtomes of their auncient predeceſſors, although that they were Idolaters. Wherefore it ſhould ſéeme vnto them yet more honeſt, & a great deale more profitable, to bring again in vſe their auncient faſhions & maners, then to follow the papiſtical maners. But amongſt others they can not finde better, nor more neceſſary to all Chriſtians, then that which they had of late, to ſhut the gates of their towne agaynſt all Hipocrites, Cagots Stongeth ful he lyes vnder co. 1 lour of religiō Caphards, & Seducers, who vnder the ſhadow & tytle of holy Religion would lyue idelly, and cate and deuoure other mens ſubſtaunce without doing any thing. Their gate was not opened to ſuch gluttons & belly gods, & they would not admit any Religion & new ſuperſticion. If the Chriſtians had done ſo, the world not haue ben ſo ſpoyled and deuoured by the Prieſtes, Poonkes and caphards. But for to returne vnto mourning: In the manner alſo Seneca hath written, that the auncient Romaynes The cuſtome of the Romaines. Senec. epiſt. 75. haue not preſſed, nor determined any certeyne time vnto for to weepe and lament, bicauſe it hath no honeſtie. for as the himſelfe witneſſeth, a wiſe man doth not afflict The office of a vviſe man. nor lament himſelfe too much, when he looſeth his children or his friends, but beareth their death with ſuch a ſtomack and heart, as he would doe his owne. For that cauſe amongſt others was Anaxagoras prayſed, who without any Cice. Tuſc. 9. li. 1. trouble to himſelfe, anſwered vnto him which brought hun tidings of the deathe of his ſonnes: Thou telleſt me of no new thing, nor a thing but that I ahue longe looked for it: For I knew very well that he whom I engendred was mortall.

Thomas.

When I doe heare ſpoken of the conſtancie and modeſtie, that the Panims haue ſhewed in the death both of them and of their friendes, I am greately aſhamed of vs chriſtians, who haue ſo great feare, and doe make ſuch noyſe, and torment our ſelues after the dead.

Hillairus.

Thereby we declare, that we are very The cuſtome of: the 1. yeians. Val. Max. li. 2. ca. 1. ignoraunt and effeminated. And therefore the Lycians did apparayle them with womwnes apparell, when they did mourne and lament, to the ende that they ſhould bée moued thorow that deformitie of apparell, and thereby conſtrayned to caſt downe all that fooliſh ſorrow. Declaring by the ſame, that they accompted it folly to lament Plut. in Lycur. The cuſtome of ye Lacedemetis. and wéepe. For that cauſe Lycurgus did not permit to the Lacedemonians, but eleuen dayes to mourne and lament in: and after at the twelfe day, they muſt caſt it downe, after that they had made a ſacrifice vnto Ceres. Uppon that matter ahth Plutarch written, that all things not accuſtomed nor vſed were applyed vnto thoſe that dyd lament and mourne. And therefore the men went foorth openly, The manner & fashion 〈…〉 . 1. C •• . 11 a 5. hauing their heads couered. the woemen vncouered and ſhorne, or altogether polde, agaynſt the order of nature, that being aſhamed of ſuch deſormitie, they ſhould be conſtrayned ſhe rather to moderate themſelues, and the better to banqutſh and ouercome their affections. And whereas the Romaines preſcribed a yeare full out The lavv of the Romaynes of ye mourning of the vvidovvees vnto the woemen for to mourne, was not for to compell them to lament and mourne ſo long time, but to moderate and correct them, to the ende they exceeded not meaſure. And therefore the widowes did cary the ſignes of ſorrowfulneſſe, being apparayled with blacke, and wearing white kerchiefes vppon their heades, as the Papiſts doe at this Pluta. in queſt day. The which thinges ouid hath compriſed in a fewe bearſes, ſpeaking of the yeare ordayned by Romulus, after this manner.

When funeralls were once fulfilde ouid. Faſt. 1 the wiſe with ruthfull cheere, His husbands death dyd wayle the want, the ſpace of one whole yeere.

And the Poet Statius ſayth alſo.

The woemen weare in their attire, Statius. the haue of blacke and white: To repreſent the difference, betwixt the day and night.

And it was not lawfull for them to marry, before that thoſe tenne moneths were expired, except the had a diſpenſation of the Senate and Counſell, as wée haue vſed to take of the people. For Numa Pompilius of the ſame made The lavvw of Numa for the mariage of VVidovves. plut. in Vita Numa Anto. Fan. in Faſt. 1 a law, the which did condempne the widow, which maried before that the terme and lawfull tyme was accompliſhed, to ſacrifice a Cow with calfe. Not that he eſtéemed that it was a ſinne worthy of great puniſhment, in marrying hir before that terme, but had regarde to the honeſtye, for two cauſes. The firſt was, bicauſe that it was not honeſt for the woeman but very much contrarye vnto the ſhamefaſtneſſe and naturall modeſtye, which oughte to be in hir, to marye agayne ſo ſoone, and before that the féete of hir firſt huſband, (as the common Prouerbe is) be throughly colde. The other cauſe is for to conſerue and kéepe the lynage and generations, without minglyng them and deſtroying the ſéedes. For it may ſo chaunce, that the woman ſhalbe with chilce by hir firſt huſbande and ſhe ſhall not know it ſo ſoone. Neuertheleſſe Diſponſation of mariage. Antbony Octauian. when there is any perſon of great callyng the Senate and Counſell would diſpenſe with him, as it appeareth at the maryages of Anthony and Octauia, who by the authoritie of the ſame were allowed, notwithſtanding that Octauia did mourne for C. Marcellus.

Theophilus.

It is moſt certeine, that it lyeth not in mans C. Marcellus power to make a law which is repugnaunt and agaynſt that which the Lorde hath ſayde by his Apoſtle. Hée that vvhat y lavves ought to be of mariage. 1. Cor. 7. b. 9 cannot abſtaine let him mary, to the ende that none do put any ſnare about the necke of any man, & put his ſoule in daunger. Therefore ſayth he, it is better to mary then to burne. For that cauſe let vs not make a law, for to bynde any man, and to take from him his libertie in ſuch things, but let vs leaue y vnto euery ones diſcreſſion, following ye cuſtoms moſt allowable. Yet neuertheles it is requiſite, whatſoeuer infirmitie of the fleſh that one can alleadge, that one haue alwayes reaſon of honeſtie and Chriſtian modeſtie. For that cauſe friende Euſebius haue wée propounded vnto thée ſo many examples and ſentences, both of the holy ſcriptures & of auncient Doctors, and alſo of the Panims, to that ende that thou maiſt the more cléerely know what hath bene the cuſtome of the auncient Iſraelites and of the Panims, and of the firſt Chriſtians alſo: what hath bene their mourning, what daies they haue dedicated for the ſame, & for the dead: and for what cauſe, and how the auncient Doctors haue written, and to what intent: and how much the Chriſtian religion hath degenerated frō his auncient puritie, inſomuch yt it is not worthy to cōpare them in ſuch things, I ſay not vnto ye auncient Iewes, but vnto ye Panims themſelues which haue had ſome iudgement & honeſtie. And yet neuertheleſſe S. Hierome doth deſire yt the chriſtiās ſhould be yet more ſober S. Hierome. Tomb. 6. The mourning of the auncient Iſr. Ielytes. in ſuch things then y auncient Iſraelites, whoſe maner of doing he prayſed not greatly, which they haue vſed towards the dead: But he excuſeth them bicauſe that they had not yet receyued ſo amply the lyght and knowledge, nor the accomplything of the promiſes of God ſo amply & ſo excellently as we. Wherefore he would that we ſhould be a great deale more moderate, and that we ſhould declare more lyuely the hope that we haue of the reſurrection.

But if we can doe no better nor be more perfect then they, let vs not be at the leaſt more imperfect, and lette vs not doe worſe, after the manner of the Papiſts who are mroe to be rebuked in thoſe things, then any people that euer was vppon the earth. Wherefore it were better (friende Euſebius,) that we ſhould reduce our ſelues to the imitacion of the Apoſtolicall Church, then to continue alwayes in our folly and madneſſe, vnder the colour of a word or two that we finde eyther in Ambroſe, or in ſome other auncient doctor for want of well vnderſtanding them.

And it ſhalbe a great deale more conuenient and meeter Example of Dauid. 2. Reg. 12. d. 15. for vs to follow the example of Dauid, who mourned & lamented for his childe all the while that he was ſicke, and whileſt that he was yet alyue, & not after yt hée was dead. For which all thoſe of his houſe were much abaſhed. For whileſt that the childe was yet ſicke, and that he had ſome hope of lyfe, he watched, faſted and prayed, making requeſt vnto God for the childe, and dyd lye flat on the earth, and during the ſpace of ſeuen dayes all thoſe of his houſe, no not his auncients and counſellers could not make him to lye on a bed, nor to aryſe vp from the earth, nor to eate nor drinke with them, vntyll ſuch tyme he vnderſtoode that the childe was dead, the which thing none of his ſeruaunts durſt tell him off, thinking that he would haue bene mernaylouſly ſadde and penſiſe, after that hée ſhould bée aduertiſed of his deathe, ſith that all the time of his ſickeneſſe whileſt that there was yet ſome hope of lyfe, he alwayes wepte and lamented. But it happened cleane contrarye. For as ſoone as hée knewe for a certeynetie that the childe was dead, he aroſe from the earth, and waſhed and anoynted himſelfe, and chaunged his apparell, and went into the houſe of the Lord, and prayed, and after came to his own houſe, and bad that they ſhould ſet meate before him and he did eate: And made greater cheere then before, whereoff his ſeruaunts were much abaſhed, and aſked him what is this that thou haſt done? vnto whom he aunſwered: while the childe was a lyue, I faſted and wepte. For I thus thought: who can tell whether God will haue mercy on me, that the childe may lyue? But now ſéeing it is dead, wherefore ſhould I faſt? Can I bring him agayne any more? I ſhall goe to him, but hée ſhall not come agayne to me. Dauid teacheth Mourning for the lyuing and ſicke. vs a good leſſon, and learneth vs to praye the one for the other, while wée bée in this lyfe, and to make prayers vnto God, and to lament and mourne for our bretheren and neighbours, whileſt they are alyue, whether they be in health or ſicke, proſperitie or aduerſitie, and not after they be dead. For whilſt that they be ſicke, we ought to pray for them, that it would pleaſe God to pardon their ſinnes, and ours: to giue vnto them health, and to ſuffer them a while to be with vs, and comfort vs, & to ſerue moreouer vnto his church, if he know yt the ſame is moſt expedient for the glory of his name, and our profite. For whileſt that man is ſicke, we know not certeynly, what God meaneth to boe with him. We know very well that his wil cannot be but good, & that he wil diſpoſe all things to the beſt: But we cannot know perticulerly, wythout a ſinguler reuelation, whether that it be better that ye ſick perſon doe lyue or dye, both for him and for vs. Wherefore we ought to pray and weepe for him whileſt that we can ayde and helpe him, and that he is yet alyue with vs, in the which we haue place to repent. & to obteyn pardon for our ſinnes: and we ought chieſly to bewayle the poore 〈…〉 ſinners, whom we ſee to goe to perdition, as Samuel bewept Saul ſéeing him forſaken of God: And Sainct Paule the Corinthians, whom he law to be deteyned and kept in 1. Reg. 15. ſ. 26 2. Cor. 12. g. 21 Hie in cōment in Mat. 5. c. 11. ſinnes, if it would pleaſe God to haue mercy vpon them. But ſith that God hath once declared vnto vs his will, we muſt holde our ſelues vnto the ſame, and to take no more care for thoſe whome God hath called vnto himſelfe from among vs, but we ought onely to aduiſe and ſludie how we ſhould diſpoſe and order our ſelues for to follow them, after the example of Dauid. Wherevnto agreeth very wel the doctrine of Daynct Iames, who admonuſheth the faithfull The viſitacion of the ſicke Iam. 5. c. 14. if any of them bee diſeaſed to call vnto them the true Prieſts of the Goſpell and Elders of the congregation, for to comfort them with the worde of God, and for to praye for them, that they may haue ye forgiuenes of their ſinnes, and to comfort and procure all that they can for the health of their bodyes and ſoules, and for their health, and thorow prayers and oyntments and other lyke things, which God hath giuen vnto the primitiue Church, the which hath receyued The gilte do miracles in the primitiue church. A noynting vvith oyle. Marc. 6. b. 13 the gyfte to doe miracles, and in the which the Apoſtles did miraculouſly heale the diſeaſed. Anoynting them with oyle, not after the manner as the Papiſticall Prieſtes doe, which doe anoynt the diſeaſed, not thorow the hope that they haue to heale them. For if they did thinke that they ſhould heale them, they would not anoynt them.

Hillarius.

They would not doe ſo. For they ſhould looſe much nor they ſhould haue ſo many fatte hydes.

Theophilus.

For that ſame cauſe they call that vnction extreme, and the laſt ſacrament: And they giue it not for Extreme vncſion the health of the body nor for to heale the diſeaſed, as the Apoſtles did, nor to that intent as Saint Iames hath written, but did giue it for the health of the ſoule, as thoughe their holy oyle could penetrate in the ſame, and that the haly Ghoſt and forgiueneſſe of ſinnes wertied vnto ye oyle. I know not whereto ye vnction can ſerue for ye poore diſeaſed, ſuch as the do vſe, ſith yt thei haue no promiſes of god. & that ye gift of miracles is not giuen vnto thē as vnto ye Apoſtles, & to yt primitiue church: & they do none other thing but read ye Pſalter & babble it in a ſtrange language vnto ye ſicke perſon, of which he receiueth no inſtruction, nor any The ſaying of the Pſalter. The vſe of extreme vnction. The Apes of ye Apoſt 3. conſolation at all.

Hillarius.

If thou know not wherto that vnction ſerueth, I will tell thée. Firſt, that is a witneſſe for to proue that in yt ſame they are the Apes of the Apoſtles, for to counterfet their workes and myracles, as they counterfetted thoſe of Ieſus Chriſt in the Baptiſine of young children. Afterward it ſerueth vnto the diſeaſed, for to make them hope to be healed, as the comming of the hangman vnto the théeues, when they doe ſée him.

For they know right wel that he is the meſſenger of death So when the poore patients ſéeing the Prieſtes comming with their Creame bores, Dyle and Drogues, they may well thinke that men accompt them for deade, and their time is come. For ſuch Phiſitians haue not accuſtomed to come, nor to bring their Triacle, but at the very houre that the ſicke perſon is abandoned and forſaken of other Phiſitians. They may iudge that their hangman is come, who careth nor for the ſoule, but requireth onely the body and the ſpoylyng thereoff.

Theophilus.

There is nothing truer. Wherefore they cannot alledge Saint Iames for their defence, nor alſo the auncient doctors whom they would take for bucklers for al their matters. They make a great accompt of Denis, who hath written the celeſtiall The authour of the celeſtial •• . d eccleſiaſticall Hieratch12 Act. 17. eccle hiſt. li. . ca. 4. li. 4. ca. 21. 22. 23 Eccle bier. 7 Denis. Areopagite. and eccleſiaſticall Hierarchies, ſaying that that is Saynct Denis of Athens, who was conuerted by the preaching of Saynt Paul, which is not lyke to be true. For the ſtile of thoſe bookes, ſinelleth not lyke vnto that of the Apoſtles, nor of their tyme. Furthermore Euſebius in his eccleſiaſticall hiſtory maketh mention ſo dilygently of the bookes of Denis Biſhoppe of Corinth, and neuer maketh any mention of thoſe of Denis Areopagite. Wherefore it is moſt lykeſt to be true, that he hath written nothing: or els Euſebius would not haue helde his peace more then of the others. But although he ſhoulde haue written thoſe bookes, yet he dyd ſufficiently declare by them that at the tyme as thoſe were written, there was not ſuche extreme vnction as there is at this preſent. He maketh mention that the Chriſtians vſed of cuſtome to anoynte the faythfull in the baptiſme, in witneſſe that they did arme themſelues for to fight, and the dead in lyke manner, when one buryeth them, in ſigne and taken, that they haue valyauntly fought, and that they haue gotten and obtayned the victory, and are gone to reſt. But he ſpeaketh not a word of the anoynting of the ſicke and diſeaſed, the which with much adoe hée woulde haue omitted, without touching and expreſſing it, aſwell as he hath done the creame of the baptiſme. And although it ſhould be ſo, that that which the Prieſtes doe, ſhoulde haue ſome certeyne foundation in the doctrine of Saynt Iames, yet they cannot deny, but that that place bath great coulour, for to condempne that which they do about the dead. For they haue not much redde in all the holy Sacripture, which hath more appearaunce at the firſt ſight, for to colour their ceremonyes, & new ſacraments, which they haue inuented without the ordinaunce of Ieſus Chriſt, then that place bath, for to giue lyght vnto theire extreme vnction, and thoſe muttering and mumblyng of the Pſalter which they doe make about the ſicke perſons, And yet neuertheleſſe there is not one onely ſillable vppon which they can ſtay or take hold for to grounde and allow the leaſt of the ceremonyes and ſuperſticions which they commit about the dead.

Hillarius.

It is neuertheleſſe much to be meruayled at, that if there had bene in their caſe any imitacion of the traditions of the Apoſtles, and of the Primatiue Churche, but that Saint Iames would haue touched ſome worde, ſith that he hath already taken in hande the matter of the ſicke and diſeaſed, and that occaſion alſo did ſuffer to ſpeake of the dead, and to teach how the Chriſtians & the Miniſters of the Church ought to behaue themſolues, if ſuch things were neceſſarye, which ſithens the time of the Apoſtles haue bene brought into the Church of God.

Theophilus.

Thy reaſon is not euill. Wherefore me thinketh (friend Euſebius that thou maiſt now vnderſtand that that place of Saint Ambroſe, and the other reaſons which thou haſt put forth for to proue thy intentien, & to confirme thy matter, conſerue ſerue thée nothing at al, for to allowe that which nowe in ſuch a caſe is dene in your Churches: But rather to condempne and reproue them. For you your ſelfe followe not the example of the Iſraelites propou ded by Saynt Ambroſe, and your Decrées and Canons, nor you are not co tented with the dayed which are there ſpecified, nor with the manner deſcribed in them, for to celebrate the commemoration of the dead, but doe adde to it many other things of which you cannot alleadge any example to be on your ſide, neyther in the olde nor new Teſtament, nor of the auncient people of Iſrael, nor alſo of the firſt Chriſtians, but of the Panims and Idolaters, whom you doe follow, kéepinge almoſt the very ſame dayes that they for the ſame haue choſen, and with the lyke ſuperſticion as they. Wherefore I am abaſhed of Durand, who expounding the miſteryes and ſecrets contayned in the number of thoſe dayes, Rat. diui. off. l . 7. Rub. de off. mort Nenſuain •• hath written among other thinges that ſome Chriſtians haue alſo choſen the nynth day, for to make the Dbſequies and commemoratien of the deade: or haue vſed of cuſtome to offer nyne dayes together for them, that theire ſoules ſhould be delyuered from paynes, and ioyned and kiut together vnto the nyne order of the Angells. But he addeth that the ſame was not allowed of ſome, fearing leaſt it ſhould ſéeme that the Chriſtians were unitators and followers of the Panims and Gentiles, who had yt ſame day dedicated vnto ye obſequies & cōmemoratiō of their dead, as already hath ben touched.

Hillarius.

Duer and beſides the witneſſe of all the Poets and chiefely of Virg. Aene. 5. Hota. in Epod. ice ad Quint Pra. li. 3. Liui . ab. v be Et. . bel. um. Virgile, who deſcribed yt Anniuerſarie that Aeneas made for his father Anchiſes, & the ſacrifices & playes that they celebrated in the nynth daye of the ſame, we haue all the hiſtories which are o credite, namely Titus Liuius, who in many places, maketh mention of thoſe Nenſnaines and nyne daies, which they do cal Nouendium & Nouendiale.

Theophilus.

But wherefore was the cuſtomes of yt Chriſtians more to be rebuked, which do celebrate the nynth day & the Nenſuaines in ye honour of yt dead, then ether which do celebrate yt ſeuenth day, thirty, forty, a hundreth, or other lyke dayes? For if the thing be good in one day, how can it be euill in the other? doth the number adde or giue any more greater holyneſſe to one of the dayes more then to an other. And if the thing be nothing worth to one of the dayes, what priuiledge haue the other for to make it better?

Euſebius.

Wherfore do you demaund the cauſe, ſith that it hath bene already alleadged by thine owne ſelf, reciting the wordes of Durand? Do you thinke that that cauſe ought to ſuffice, leaſt it ſhould not ſéeme yt the Chriſtians do follow yt Panims, & allow their manner or doings?

Hilla.

Truly you looke well to your buſines, & haue wel prouided for your affaires. Me thinketh yt that diuel, who hath ben yt authour of your ſuperſticiōs & idolatries, in very déede hath ben a great Louldaue, & of a ſlougthful ſpirit, if he had any iudgemēt in mē wt whom he had to do, & if god by his iuſt iudgement had not taken frō thē their ſence & vnderſtanding. For what maſke hath he taken for to diſguyſe himſelfe withall to change one day into an other? what differēce is ther, if you do yt ſame things. which were vſed amonge the Panims, ſauing that you doe chaunge the daye? Which is beſt, eyther to blaſpheme God the third, ſeuenth, thirtie and fortie day, or the fourth, nynth, tenth, or fiftle? Can one diſhonour and blaſpheme him more honeſtly in the one of thoſe dayes then in the other. What doe I care what day you take, if you commit the ſame faultes? As touching the dayes, you haue Imitation of ye levves & panims. choſen thoſe ſame of the Iewes. As touching the ſuperſticion, you do follow the ſame of the Panims: & deſiring to ſhew yt you are neyther Iew nor Panim, you declare, that you are leſſe chriſtians: but yt you haue a ſect & a new law lyke vnto that of Mahomet, who haue not followed altogether The Imitacion of Mahonus. neither that of the Iewes, & Panims, nor yet yt of the Chriſtians: But made one, taking out of all thoſe together that it pleaſed him, and hath made a potage, mingled with all ſauces, and corrupted with all poyſons, which doe in ſuch ſorte waſte all that that maye be good, that there remayneth nothing, but the vyle venyme of all errours & hereſies. I know not vnto what I may compare more preperly your traditions, then vnto thoſe of that falſe prophet: nor I do not well know, what difference may be the greater between thoſe, except peraduēture I ſhould ſay that in yours there is more of the imitation of the Panims, and that your Rome and hir lawes, is alwayes the auncient Rome, and the lawes that ſhe had before the reuelation The olde and nevv Rome. of the Goſpell. The which thing I will ſhew vnto thée at the firſt ſight, by a goodly diſcourſe, the better to vanquiſh and ouercome thée, ſith that thou wilt not be contented with that which already hath bene ſufficiently proued vnto thee: not that I haue determined to rehearſe all your ceremonyes and traditions. For I had rather to number and tell all the ſande of the Sea and to drawe out all the water from the ſame: But I will content my ſelfe at this tune, with the conference of Mortuaryes, and with that which belongeth vnto them, which haue bene among the panims, the which you haue kept, and the things which haue ſome affinitie with them.

Then I demaund of thée firſt of all, if Durand did finde anything to ſay vnto the Chriſtians, which did celebrate the Nenſuaines, bicauſe of the affinitie that they ſéemed to haue with the Panims: Wherfore then doe you allow Anniuerſaries. thoſe which doe celebrate the Anniuerſaryes of the dead? For the ſame neuer had other for his firſt authours then the Panims, as I wil proue vnto thée by and by, by their Theologians. Thou arte not contented with that which Theophilus hath aunſwered thee in, that ſithence the time of Pope Pelagius and Gregory, thoſe manner The beginning of the feaſts and Anniuerſaries for the dead. Pluto. Cal. lecsant. li. 17. ca. 2 doings haue taken great force, and haue bene much augmented among the Chriſtians, and thou doeſt no wrong: For they are a greate deale more auneyent, yea, and inuented longe before the tyme of the Apoſtles, if wee wyll beléeue Diodorus, who affirmeth Pluto, to haue bene the authour & inuentour of them, and of the funerall ceremonies, as I haue already tolde thée before.

After whom came Aeneas, who in the honour of his Aeneas. Anchiſes. Father Anchiſes, ordained and made Anniuerſaries and yéerely feaſtes, and ſacrifices for the dead, as the auncient hiſtories doe witneſſe, whome the Poets haue followed, who doe deſcribe thoſe thinges verye amply, and chieſlye Virgile, who bringeth in Aeneas ſpeakinge vnto his compaignions in this manner.

You mightie Troyans, from the bloud of great Gods that diſcend, Virg. Aene. 5 This time is come about, a perfect yeare is now at end, Since when my father Anchiſos bleſſed bones were put in ground And mourning alters for his holy relikes we did found. And now the day (if I doe not miſtake) approcheth neere, That vnto me, ſhall euer dolefull be, and euer deere. Since Gods hath pleaſed ſo: If I this day were caſt a land, Among the ſauage Moores, or on the ſhotes of Syrtes ſand. Or eaught on Greekiſh ſeas, or in Mycena towne a ſlaue, Yet pay my yeerely vovves I vvould, vvith pompe of dueties braue, And gifts in feaſtfull guiſe, on alters large I vvould aduaunce, Now here in hauen vve be, among our friends, not by no chaunce, But by the Gods (I truſt) of purpoſe wrought, and for the nones, To vvorſhip here my fathers bleſſed duſt, and precious bones. Come on therefore, let euery man ſet foorth theſe honors pure, With myrth on euery ſide, that of good vvindes we may be ſure, And as I yearely now theſe offring dayes to him doe make, So vvhen my Citie builded is, in Temples he ſhal take.

Now following the vow that Aeneas made héere, Ouid Ouid, Faſt. 2 alſo witneſſeth how that manner of dooing, by hym was carryd into Italy, ſaying.

Aeneas, the firſt deuiſer was, of all true godlineſſe, Which order brought to Italian land as ſtories doe expreſſe: That yeerely giftes for fathers ſoules, to Temple ſhould be brought. From him the people learned had, new cuſtomes neuer taught.

After Aeneas came Romulus, who did follow his example, Romul. Remus. Lemuria. Plut. in Rom. The feaſts of the dead in May. and hath alſo ordained a feaſt, called Lemuria, or Remuria, & an Anniuerſarie in the moneth of May, for his brother Remus and others that be dead, as many hiſtoriographers do witneſſe, & Ouid veſcribeth after in this ſort, ſaying:

The order was of ſacrifice, Ouid. Faſt. 5. on dayes Remuria hight, For ſilly ſoules that were in paine to ſing a Ditge at night. The yeare then was not full ſo long for Februa feaſtes were none, Nor Ianus guider of the monthes With double ſhape was knowne: Yet after by and by they brought offrings for ſoules to haue, And Nephewes ſacrifyces made for graunſires laide in graue.

And by and by afterwardes ſayth:

Romulus that day Remuria hight that ſacrifice for ſinne, For graundſires ſoules from body paſt was offred firſt by him.

Now Numa the ſucceſſor of Romulus, not béeing contented with that which hath bene already inſtituted by Numa. his predeceſſors, amongeſt other ceremonies that he gaue vnto the emiſhe people, bee hath yet added vnto the Feaſts for ye dead in February Lupercaies Plat. in Rom. Ouid. Faſt. 2 The ſignth ati. firſt an other feaſt for the dead in the moneth of February whiche hée celebrated yearelye, and contynued eleune dayes, that whiche Romulus, in inſtitutinge the feaſte of Lupercales hath already ſomewhat begun. For that on of February Conſorius Plutarch Sex. Pomp. cauſe was that moneth called, February, the which Num hath added with Ianuary, to the yeare of Romulus which was not but ten monethes, & kéepeth yet the name. For February ſigmfieth as much in Latin, as purgation or Purgatory. And therefore ye name was giuen vnto that ſeconde moneth, bicauſe of the feaſtes and ſacrifices which were celebrated, as well for the purgation of the ſoules, as for, the purification of the Citie & all the country: to the which thinge all that moneth was dedicated: the which Ouid hath all compriſed in theſe verſes, ſaying:

The Romaine fathers Februa hight, a ſacrifice for ſin, Faſt. 2. And to the vvord doth crodue giue, as doth conſiſt therein: And vvhatſoeuer is prepard, by any meanes they may, Is for to purge our bodies ſo, that ſinne reſt not nor ſtay. February. In time therefore of Fathers olde, vvhieh ſheared not their haire That month then tooke his name thereoff, as it ſhall heare appeare. At vvhat time that the Lupersales, vvith ſinne be rent and torne Did purne the earth from filthy ſinne that then vvas al forlorne. Or els bicauſe thoſe times be pure, that dead appeaſed bee When offring daies be gone and paſt, as that time they did ſee.
Theophilus.

Friende Euſebius, if you are not contented with the authoritie of Ouid, yet I thincke at the leaſtwiſe you will not relect that ſame of Saincte Auguſtine, who in his bookes of the Citie of God, ſpeakinge Auguſt. de ciui Des. li. 7. c. 7 of that ſame matter confirmeth that whiche Ouid hath written, alledginge his owne verſes, and ſaith amonge other things. In that moneth was made the holy Purgatory, Sacrum Purgatorium quod vocant February which they cal Februm. He vnderſtandeth by the ſame that the Panims did make in that time, theire holye and ſacred ſacrifices of purgation, as wee woulde ſaye no we at this daye the Purgatory, or purgatine Maſſe.

Hillarius.

Beſides thoſe general feaſts and which were common to all the dead, according to the viuerſitie of the countries & nations, & as ye caſe requireth & the perſon which dyed, they had other feaſts & Annirerſaries more perticular either for one, or for many, as the Greekes had a cuſtome The obſeqnies of the Greeks in September. to celebrate the xbj: day of the moneth of September, the Dbſequies & Anniuerſaries of thoſe which dyed in the war, fighting againſt the Perſinns, as witneſſeth Plutarch: Plat. in Ariſtide Anniuerſaries in Nonember. Plut. in Marce lo. forum boar um. Cice. pro Flaccs & li. 2. de legs Liui 4. bel puns Caſa. li. 7. bel. gal. Alſo he witneſſeth ye at Rome they did the like in the moneth of November, for the Gaulois, Frechmen & Greekes, which haue bene buried in the place which was called the Bullock market. And Gicero & Titus Liuius do offētimes make inention of ſuch feaſt dayes of the Panims and good déeds.

Theophilus.

He hath learned by thoſe things, euen as we do ſée dayly the lilte practiſe in our Popes & prelates of the Church, who haue alwayes added ceremonies vpon ceremonies: ſuperſtition vpon ſuperſtition, & Idolatry vpon Idolatry, & haue dayly augmented them, ſith that they are once begun, inſomuch that it is not poſſible that they can procéede any further. For we do ſurmount & excéed already long ſince, all the auncient Idolaters in Idolatry. Wherfore we haue better occaſion to complaine, then S. Auguſtine had in his time, which differed much from ours: And The complaynt of S. Auguſtine Epiſt. ad lannu artus. 119 yet neuertheleſſe he did greatly complaine of the multitude of ceremonies and ſuperſtitions with which alreadye the Church was then ouercharged & corrupted. Therefore ſaid he, our Lord Ieſus Chriſt willing to giue vnto his church a great liberty: would not make it to be, ſubiect vnto many ceremonies, but onely vnto a little certeine number of ſacraments: And yet neuertheleſſe it is nowe ſo much charged, The charge of ceremonyes. that the condition of the Iewes who were vnder the ſhadowes and figures, and the ſeruitude and bondage of ye lawe, is more tollerable then ours, and chieſly in that that the ceremonies which they had, were giuen vnto them of God, but thoſe which haue ben brought into the Cſtriſttan Church, are nothing els but mans preſumptions & inuentions of preſumptious and ouerbolde men.

Hillarius.

Truely he ſhould haue now other occaſion to write the ſame, if he did ſée the traine that the Papiſtes doe holde: as well towardes the quicke as towardes the dead: wee may aſſuredly affirme that Pluto was no leſſe the authour of the Dbſequies, Funerals, Dbites, Legates, Anniuerſaries The Pluto of the chriſtians. and other like things, which are at this daye vſed among the Chriſtians, as among the Panims. For Pluto is the God of riches. And what hath bene the firſt cauſe, and firſte foundation of all theſe thinges, and of Purgaforye, and of thoſe dependaunces, and the occaſion of ſo much augmenting & increaſing of them, but the inſatiable auarice & couetouſneſſe of the great Romiſh Pluto, & of his Mercuries, & other like Gods, which are ioyned with The office of Mercurie, him? For if we by iuſt occaſion, do cal him Pluto, we haue no leſſe occaſiō to compare both him & his vnto Mercurie, Cal. Rho. lect. Ant. li. 18. . 6 whoſe office is among the Gods, to lead & bring the ſoules in thoſe Plutonical & infernal regions & kingdomes, after that they be ſeperated from the body, He hath to dooe now in heauen, now in the earth, and by & by in hell. The which thing was one of the cauſes, wherfore the Panims did paint his picture & Image, hauing thrée heads. In ſteed whereoff our Pluto, hath his thrée crownes, for to declare Mercurie hath three heads Tyrephalos. The three Popish crovvries Hecate triuia & trifortmis. that he hath power in heauen, earth & hel, and that he holdeth the place of Hecate, vnto whom the Idolaters do attribute thrée formes, and ſuch a power: the which the Pope doth attribute vnto himſelfe altogether. For he is mounted and aſcended into ſuch arrogancie and pride, that hée dare take vpon him to commaunde the Angelles and the The Popes povver. Virg. Aene. 6. Orpheus & Euridice. Caſtor & Pollux. Theſeus & Pirothus Hercules. The harpe of Orpheus and that of & Pope Dyuels, and to ſtretch foorth his hande euen to the hells, for to pull from thence the ſoules, and thoſe which are thether deſcended, but it is after that ſort as Orpheus went to ſeke his wife Eurydice, Pollux his brother Caſtor: The ſeus and Pyrothus who rauiſhed Proſerpina: Dr as Hercules deſcended thether, for to bring away Cerberus. For I doubt not, but that theſe poeticall fables do containe as much truth, as yt which yt Pope would make vs to beléeue. And I beléeue yt his Muſitions & Singers haue no more tertue, then the Harpe of Orpheus for to drawe the ſoules from Purgatory: But he hath a Harpe vpon which hée playeth better, then euer Orpheus did, For by ye meanes of the ſame, he eateheth euery thing, & nothing eſcapeth him, but y he bringeth al things vnder his wing, Wherfore we may rightly attribute vnto him thrée heads, as vnto Mercurie Geryo & Cerberus, & thrée bodies, as vnto Geryon, ſith that he hath ſuch credit with ye celeſtial & infernal gods, that he cōmaundeth yt. Angels of heauen, that they bring vnto the ioyes of paradiſe, the ſoule of him who for his pardons goeth to Rome, & that he be deliuered from Purgatory. And he ſayth yet moreouer, we wil not, that the paine of hel be any thing at al inioyned vnto ſuch a perſō. And it is not ſufficient for him to vſurps ſuch authoritie & ſeigniory vpon hyn, but he doth alſo giue that power vnto thoſe which do receiue his Cromade, o deliuer from Purgatory thrée or foure ſoules, yea, ſuch as they will themſelues. The bull of Glement.

Thomas.

Is it poſſible yt he is ſo ſhameleſſe & ouerbold?

Hillarius:

The Bull of Pope Clement may beare witnes of it, ye which is kept yet at this day well ſealed wt ſeales of lead at Vienna, Limoges, Poictiers, & in the coffers of yt priuiledges. It is very true yt the Sorbōniſts of Paris would not allow it, but condempned it. But yet neuertheleſſe it muſt néeds be that it muſt paſſe by their hands. He hath alſo a great many other proverties in him, for the which one may compare both him & his vnto Mercurie, who was in Other offices of Mercury Rhod. lectant. li. 16. ca. 19 The Image of Mercury like manner holden & accompted of the Panims, for the God of gaine, of merchants, deceiuers, hers & théeues. And therfore they painted him with a ſerip, did ſet his Image in the middle of the market, & before the gates of the houſes, for to kéepe them, & for to driue away ye other théeues: bicauſe that he was the greateſt, & Prince of others. For did the earth bring foorth euer ſuch deceiuers, abuſers, and liers, ſuch merchaunts, and more couetous of filthy gaine? They may well cary the ſcri . For that is the cabin from The ſcrippe of Mercury which do come foorth all theſe lawes, canons & decrees, for to yet the money both of the liuing and alſo of the dead. And hee caryeth not the key wythout a cauſe, for to open and ſhut the gates, and to empty the coffers and ſcrippes, and to take awaye the praye from other théeues, of whome hée is the Capitayne. At the leaſtwiſe, none can denfe, but that the doctrine of the Panims, as muche as concerneth the dead; is more reaſonable then that of the Papiſtes. For althoughe that the Theologians of the A lyttle coſt about the dead. Pamins, do allow the Ceremonies, Feaſts, and Anniuerſaries of the dead, yet neuertheleſſe they doe alſo teache, that it is not nowe néedefull to beſtowe any greate coſt about them, but that they content themſelues with a little thing, euen as Ouid the maiſter of ceremonies, witneſſeth Ouid. Faſt. 2, in his Calender, in theſe wordes.

It is an honor dew to ſoules and bodies that be dead To bring ſuch giftes to yerkſome graue, as ſatiſfye their mead. The ſoules doe much delite therein and much the ſame doth craue, By meanes whereoff themſelues they thinke, from Plutos force: to ſaue. With flowers greene and garlands gay, their heads they doe adorne: And wine and ſalt is put thereto with other fruites and corne. Nor things of more waight I reproue For ſoules therein delight, On graue ſay thou thy prayers then, that ghoſtes may haue their right.

Wherevnto agréeth alſo the Dracle of Apollo, ſpeaking The Oracle of Apollo. of the ſacrifices of the infernall Gods, and of the ſoules, in theſe wordes.

The Gods vvich vvith their bodies black, about the vvorld do fly, Which alſo dayly ſacrifice, require inceſſauntly, Iucenſe of Meale and ſalted fruites, and alſo pleaſaunt Cakes, See that you make together mixt, as daintie delicates.

For that cauſe they vſed in, that time there, to ſette The banket and ſupper of the dead. ſuch meates vpon a. ſtpue to the cude that the good ſcules and ſhadowes ſhould come and banket there, & they called that banquet and ſupper, that they made for them Silicernium, Silyeernium. bicauſe that the ſhadowes and the ſoules behold it in ſtlence. They doe alſo call it Feralis Coena, as wee Feralis e na may ſay the ſupper of the dead: of which ſpeaketh luuenal, confirminge the thinges aboue ſpoken, after thys manner.

In platters ſmall, the ſuppers they doe put. 〈◊〉 . Saly. 5 o bodies dead, in lothſome graue layd vp.

And in like manner Perſius, ſpeaking of him which conſumed Perſ. Saty. 6 his goods fooliſhly:

The heire with wrathfull ire doth pine to ſee thy goods ſo ſpent, Nor funerall feaſtes eſteeme will he not made to his intent.

I doe thincke that Baruch did vnderſtand by ſuch ſuppers, Baruch. 6. e. 30. that which is written in hys booke, of the Prieſtes of the Babilonians and Idolaters, ſaying: The Prieſtes ſit in their temples, hauing open clothes, whoſe beades and beardes are ſhauen, and haue nothinge vpon theire beades: roaring and crying vpon their Gods, as men doo at the feaſte, when one is dead. Hee ſheweth in ſewe woordes, the manner that the Idolaters had, both in their diuine ſeruice for the Gods, and the office of the dead.

Hillarius.

And what had they that wée haue not? dooe not our Prieſtes roare and crye both after their Gods and after the dead? may we not rightlye call their Maſſes of Requiem, the ſupper of the dead? For they haue all that which Baruch hath comprehended, without faylinge one haire of ones head. It may haue peraduenture ſome differ ce in that yt the Maſſe is ſong in the morning. Wherfore it ſhould ſoeme more fitter, to call it, the draft of wine, or the breakfaſt or dinner of the dead?

Thomas.

That which thou haſt ſpoken to couer the able to the d ••• , is vſed yet at this day of ſome, who at the fenſe that is made when one is dead, do leaue all night the Table couered and ſet full The table couered for the ſoules. of meates, béeing of that opinion that the ſoules do come thither to banket.

Theophilus.

Maiſter Iohn Belet witneſſeth neuertheleſſe M. Iohn Belet. Rat. dius. off. 1 . 7. Rub. de cath. 5. Pet. The feaſt of S. Peters chaire. in his booke that he made of the Legend of Saincts, and feaſtes of all the yeare, that the auncients haue ordeyned the feaſt of Sainct Peters chaire in February, vppon ſuche a day as the Panyms accuſtomed to offer yearely, Wyne, and other meats vppon the Sepulchers of the dead, and to banket them, thinking that the ſoules and ſhadowes which paſſed by the Sepulchers, would come & eate. Wherefore to aboliſhe that ſuperſtitious & witked cuſtome, they haue conſtituted that that feaſt ſhould be celebrated, the which for that cauſe was called at the beginning, the feaſt of Sainct Peter of meates & bankets.

Hillarius.

And what haue they gayned by changing it? The poore Chriſtian people haue no profit by it, and there is no gaine but for the Prieſts, whiche in ſte ede therof, haue at this day their ſtones & aulters, vpon which they do lay their table clothes, and afterwardes when the table is ſpread and couered, wee muſt take care for the meates, and pay the banket, and yet neuertheles we cate nothing at all, but are as the Panims, which bring the ſupper to the dead, afterwards they onely looke on them, not daring to touch it, which was alſo the one of the cauſes, wherefore that banket was called Silicernium, as witneſſeth Donatus. For they did thinke, that whoſoeuer did taſte, eate or drinke of that which was offered vnto the Donat in Adelph Terent. dead, was polluted and defyled. But our prieſtes feare not that For they themſelues doe eate with they? domeſtical he Nymphes A the Prieſts & of the panims Nimphes, which beuoure and conſume with them, the reliefe which remayned for yt ſoules. For ſuch Nymphes, do take no leſſe pleaſure in ſweete & deheate meats, then thoſe of the Panims, who would that one ſhould offer vnto them wyne and ony, as witneſſoth the Oracle of Apollorſaying:

The Nymphes are glad and make good fare The Oracle of Apollo. with hony and wine, which pleaſant are.

In ſteede of them wée haue thoſe paliards & whorehunters vnto whom we muſt offer vnder the title and name of the Soules, who endeuour themſelues ſo wel, that nothing of the offrings remaineth, although that yt ſhadowes and ſoules diminiſh them nothing at al. For they baue not very great bellies: except peraduēture there be dronkerds, like vnto thoſe of the bawde, vnto when Propeiſe giueth the Requieſcant in pace, ſaying. Properſe. Requiſe •• in pace of the havvde.

Thou ſlinking bavvde and filthy vvhore, & ſtrumpet al forlornt, Thy lothſome Tombe is ouer grone vvith ſharpe & pricking thorne Thy ghoſt' is dry, & fore a thirſt, & ſo vvill ſtill remaine Againſt thy will it muſt be ſo, vvhy ſhould I to thee ſaine.
Thomas,

Yet neuertheles a man ſhall finde ſhadowes which do eate very well, and which haue good teeth & great bellies.

Hillarius.

If thou doe take the ſhadowes for thoſe Shalovves hauing teeth and bellyes. which come vnto the bankets, not beeing byd with thoſe which are the geſtes, I graunt vnto thée, that ſuch ſhadowes haue not the taſte in the teeth, nor liue not of the dewe, as the Graſhoppers: or of the winde as the Camelion. But the ſhadowes of which I ſpeake, are of another nature. The auncients called thoſe whom thou ſpeakeſt Cigales. Chameleon. 〈◊〉 1 cent. 1. off, ſhadowes, bicauſe that they follow and accompany thoſe that are bidden, as the ſhatowe ſolloweth and accompanieth the bodie, and vnder coloure of them, all though that they bee not called by him that maketh the banket, do keepe neuertheleſſe company with the geſtes, & ſit at the table with them. After that ſorte did Plutarch The shadovves of the dead. Ving. Aene. 6. Phn. li. 7 ca. 55 expounde it, and Horace amonge the Latius hath often vſed it. For when ſuch ſhadowes are at the table, they do effectually ſhew yt they are not vaine & emptie ſhadowes, but of bodies altogether fat & maſſy. But when the auncients doe ſpeake of the ſhadowes of thoſe that bee dead, they vnderſtand not properly their ſoules, but their viſiōs and fantafficall figures, which do watch about the Sepulchers, Trang. in talig Cice. Tuſe. . li. and do ſhew themſelues as ſhadowes, in the forme and likenes of bodies, which yet neuertheleſſe were not, & vaniſhed away when 〈◊〉 did come nigh them, and when one did thinke to tonche them, as a ſhadow and ſmoke.

Thomas.

I doe verily beleeue that thoſe doe not much diminiſh the meates.

Euſebius.

Alſo one may well knowe, that there is now none ſo fooliſh that doth thinke that the ſoules do eate the offrings: But we doe cary them at their feaſt dayes, for to nouriſh the ſeruants of God, thorow whoſe prayers, & by reaſon of the Maſſes & good déedes that they do vpon ſuch dayes for them, they haue deliuerance and reſt.

Hillarius,

That is the cauſe wherefore their Bing pluto, & Neoptolemus, Eacus, Minos & Radamantus, yt criminall Iudges of the Infernall courte, and of thoſe Plutonicall Regions, do open vnto them the charters & pryſons of Purgatory, & do giue vnto them fielde playes and paſtimes and leaue to play a litle, as the Schoole maiſters The playes and paſtimes for the ſoules. do giue vnto their ſcollers, for to take ſome recreation & paſtime, euen as Mantuan witneſſeth ſaying.

As ofte as men their Sacrafice Mantua. li. 3. Alphonſi. By almes or ſeaſts do make: Or els by prayers they do thinke. the needies thirſt to ſlake, To bellies rage and pamperd fleſh a brydell they do ſet, And to the gods they do poure out their prayers from heart yfet. By meanes whereoff, the furious rage of windy force is layd For gods thereto agreed hath which makes them well apayd. By vſe whereoff and gods good grace they haue both mirth and ioye. And ſaue them from the helliſh rage that doth their ſoules anoye.

It were good reaſon that they ſhould haue at the leaſt The dayes of Ariſtotle. once or twice in the yeare, ſome good Ariſtotolicall dayes for to delite and refreſh themſelues and for to bring them out of theſe hot and burning furnaces. I pray thee thinke what ioye they do make, when that they feele & perceiue their feaſt to drawe nigh, in whiche they looke to haue ſome libertie and to finde ſome little grace and fauoure of their king Pluto, by whom I meane him of whom the Frenche Poet hath written after this manner, in his hell.

It is the holy name of Pope, that helliſh hounds imbrace, And vvith his ſtole can cull them in, & vvinne them to his grace, But feareſt thou not, that monſter great, that doth affirme & ſay, That hell to ope and alſo ſhut, he both them can and may, Yea he it is, by ſcorching heate, that martir can the ſoules And thouſand thouſands ryd he can from heate of parching coals.

I think that then he holdeth his keyes in the right hand The merry conceits and ieſtes of a holy father for to let looſe a little theſe poore ſoules, that they ſhould laugh and bee merry, if that be true which a holy father preached at Bordeaux, ſaying and affirming, that when one offereth for the dead, and that the ſoules do heare the ſounde of the money which falleth ting, ting, in the baſin, or the bore prepared to receiue the offring, they receiue ſo great ioy, and do beginne ſomuch to laugh, that they do make a noyſe, ha, ha, ha, hi, hi, hi. What wilt thou more? ſhould one ſpoyle and robbe them of their laughing? The laughing of the ſoules

Thomas.

And did that holy father laugh, ſo in the pulpit?

Hillarius,

Thou doeſt well know that the play had bene nothing worth otherwiſe and it behoueth that a good player of ieſts and games, do reprcſente and make all the leſtures and partes of the parſonnes whoſe parte he playeth. And wilt thou know whether he ſpake it in carneſt or not? I beléeue that hée did ſweare yt it was ſo, by his breſt, by the faith of his Pricſthoode: and by the Maſſe hée ſong this daye, and the God that hee had eaten. But for to returne unto the bankettes of the ſoules: howe muche doeſt thou thincke that they haue ſpente? I thincke that they doe leſſe burte unto thoſe meates, then the flyes, and that they dooe but lych a lyttle upon it. Wherefore one cannot perceiue the coſt, for to recken to them their ſhot: Neuertheleſſe although that accoroing to the Theology of Ouid, they are contēted with a little, yet they are notwithſtanding meruailouſly ſorrowfull and angry, and doe rage out of meaſure when The puni hmet for the dtſpiſing of the ſoules Faſt. 2. one forgetteth them without making any accompt, & doing his duetie towardes them, and doe auenge themſelues rigorouſlye as the Theologyan before alledged wytneſſeth, ſpeaking of that matter, and of theyr feaſte, ſaying:

When doubtfull chaunco of victory, vvith foes in field was tride, Then ſunerals for parents ſoules, was layed cleane aſide, And though that flames for corſes dead, did heat the wals of Rome Yet ſeapt they not vnpuniſhed, by iuſt and rightfull dome,

He meaneth by the ſame that they were ſtroken wyth ſo terrible diſeaſes, and ſo great mortalitie, that euery daye men ceaſed not to make great fires in the ſuburbes of the Citie, for to burne the bodyes of thoſe which dayly dyed to a great number.

Thomas.

But how haue the Romaines imagined, that their euyll procéeded thereby? For they had a certein excuſe, bicauſe of the great affaires that they had.

Hillarius.

Dur Doctour before alledged, expoundeth alſo the manner how the ſame came unto theyr knowledge, ſaying. Faſt. 2. Soules & man. dring shadovvs

The graundfathers reported are, by night from Tombe to come And in thoſe times doe much bewayle, the wrongs vnto them done. For ſacrifice not for them made their ſoules by ſtreetes doe glide. And through fieldes and deſarts great, in wofull dole doe ſlide.

They learned to their coſte, not to diſpiſe and forget any more the ſoules, & they did ſet ſuch good order, yt they neuer afterwaids tt,eir realt and ſolemuitie was forgotten and onlitted, without beeing ducly celebrated, as it ought to be according to the auncient manner.

Thomas.

And did that profit them any thing al all?

Hillarius.

Marke the aunſwer and witnes of the ſame Doctor, ſaying.

But after ſacrifices donne that did ſurceaſe of yore Theſe monſtrous ſhapes and mortall plagues afflicted them no more.

Who will deuy but that Ouid was a true Prophet of the Popes? who hath prefigured and deſcribed in his feaſts and Calender, the feaſtes and popiſh Religion. ſoe well in euery point, yt there is no more to bee ſpoken of it? for what other thing is the popiſhe Religion, then the Faſt. 2. Ouid the popes Propact. contmucation and maintenance of the auncient Rome? the which this man here hath ſucceeded, obſerued and kept all in all.

Theophilus.

He hath hit the nayle on the head. Wherfore The Calender of Ouid The Romish to lygion olde & nevv you do no wronge friend Euſebius, in ſaying yt you would liue as your predeceſſors: For thoſe olde Idolatrous Romaines are your true predeceſſors, ſith that you will follow them, & not yt Prophets & Apoſtles of Ieſus Chriſt: And euen as thoſe fictions, appearing of ſpirites & Predeceſſors of the Papilt. ſhadowes; ſerued among the Panyins but for to nouriſh, keepe and confirme the Idolatrie? euen ſo is it at this V Vherevnto yt appearing of ſdirits protend. day amonge the Papiſts. In ſteede that yt Romaines ought to acknowledge & confelſe that God puniſhed thē, bicauſe of their abhominable Idolatrie, mſatlable auarice, ſtelthes violences, murthers & ſheading of mans bloud, which was ſhed by them thorow out the univerſall worlde, they haue rather preſumed & thought, yt thoſe euils. happened unto thēe, bicauſe yt they had not wei done their duety towards yt ſoules of yt dead, yt is to ſave, bicauſe yt they had not wel ſerued & honored yt diuell as he woulde bee: unto whō they did make thoſe ſacrifices, not unto God, ſith yt of him they had not receiued cōmaūdement, nor ſuch lawes & ordinaunces.

Hillarius

At yt leaſt, friende Euſebius you can not deny, but yt your religion hath greate confirnutie, with yt which you haue already heard: But I wil yet declare & ſhewe unto thee more, without ſwaruing from the feaſt of yt dead. For there were other lawes, ſtatutes & cuſtomes The cōſormitie betvveene the Popish relygiō & the panims. Mariage forbid deli certeine times among the Panans. February yt you kéepe at this daye, ſauing yt there is a little difference in yt moneths & dayes. But els all is one. They had certaine monethes in the yeare, in which it was not lawefull to mary nor to celebrate mariage: not yt it was forbioden al yt moneth thorow out, but only certaine daies in euery one of thē: of which february had elcuen, which we dedicated unto yt dead, as Ouid withneſſeth, ſaying:

Now all that time of ſacrifice Faſt. 2. no wedding might they ſee, Nor bride to bridegroume, might be knowne by vow to lynked bee. Nor virgins fayre in Mothers ſight that marygeable were, By tricking might ſett out and dreſſe, their yellow buſh of haire. The mariage mocions now were gonne and loue was layd a ſide And dueties due to bodies dead Hymeneus the God of mariage in place gan creepe and glide. This feaſt endured and abode ſo many dayes they ſay: As is the month aboue eleuen The moneth of Marche. The proceſſion of Mats Faſt. 3. The comhat of Mars & Miner ua. Porpbyrion in Horat. this do they not denay.

That forbidding alſo tooke place in yt moneth of Marche, but it cōtinued but three dayes, during yt which they made the feaſte and proceſſion of Mars the God of battell: whom the Goddeſſe Minerua banquiſhed in the combat and battail that they had together of mariage. f whom Minerua obtayning hir Uirginitye, was called Neruie, in the honour of whom the maydens & ſuoemen did abſtaine from marriage, theſe three dayes together. There remaineth yet almoſt as many dayes for Vay, bicauſe Maye. Pluta in Romu Porphy. in Horal. piſt. vlts. Paſt. 5. of the feaſt of the dead, inſtituted in ſuche time by Romulus as already hath bene declared, and Ouid alſo witneſſeth it ſaying.

Nor were thoſe dayes, for mariage apt. for wydow nor for mayd And they that maried in thoſe tymes, with loſſe of life were payd. And for that cauſe, as prouerbe olde Common Prouerbe. doth both affirme and ſay That for to wed hath bene forbid euen in the monthe of May.

I know not whether there be any other time, in whiche mariage was prohtbited, except one part of the firſt dayes of Iune, vntill ſuch time as the filthineſſe which men tooke from the temple of Veſta, after that it was purged and made cleane, were caſt into the kyuer: as it appeareth by the verſes of the poet before allcvged, who bringeth in Sanctus Fidius ſpeaking of his daughter in theſe wordes.

A time of marriage then I ſought Faſt. 6. that ſo by law might beare That ioyne I might, him whom I lyckt hyr whom I held full deare. Then found I that the Ides of lune to my deſire did gree, That daughter to a ſonne in law might mſtly linked bee. And that the firſt part of the month, therto doth not agree, As Sacrificers wiſe of late full ofte hath ſaid to me. But till that quiet Tiber doth the ſilth from Veſta reare By trickling flowing water moue and ſo to ſea them beare. I thinke it lawfull not for me my rugged haire to combe, Nor yet for me to pare my nailes, vntill dew time doth come.

Now I pray thée conſider friend Euſebius, whether in your religion that order be much chaunged, & whether you The conformitie betvveene ye God Mars & S. George haue kept thoſe ceremonies. I could héere declare vnto thée the conformitie the which your feaſt of Saint George hath with that of Mars. For you haue S. George for the God of battaile & patron of the ſoldiers, in ſtéede as the Panims had Mars. As touching his feaſt, there is difference of the time, ſauing that the one is kept in the moncth of April, and that of Mars in the moneth of March, in whoſe honour it The Image of Saint George caſt into Seine. Iohn Maio. 4 ſent. diſt. 49 9. 5. kéepeth his name. Although that Saint George ſhewed not himſelfe to be any valiant knight, when he ſuffered his Image to be caſt into the ryuer of Seine, of thoſe of the new citie of S. George, nigh vnto Paris, bicauſe that the vines were froſen vpon his feaſt day. I might alſo bring in the conformitie which you make betwéene the virgin Mary and Minerua: For you haue conſecrated for them feaſtes all in one moneth, but I will not nowe ſo much dilate and enlarge the matter. Yet neuertheleſſe bycauſe of the affinitie and coniunction that the one of the ſuperſtitions hathe wyth the other, in declaringe the feaſtes of the deade, I wyll myngle in the deduction of the matter, ſome other Ceremonyes, bycauſe of the kyndred and neyghbourhoode. I demaunde then of thée firſte of all The conformitie of ye feaſts of the dead. February and Nouember friende Euſebius, whether there bée any great dyfference betwéene the feaſte of the deade, which is celebrated at Rome in the moneth of February, and yours of Nouember, the whiche you dooe celebrate the daye after all Saindes?

Euſebius.

As thou haſt accuſtomed to dooe thou wylte finde alwayes by thy ſlaunders, ſuche agréeinge as thou wilt.

Hillarius.

Héere néedeth no ſlaunder. Wee muſte followe but the ſimple veritie. If thou dooe thincke that it agréeth not to thy fantaſie, bicauſe of the diſtaunce that it hathe from the moneth of Nouember vnto Februarye, at the leaſtwiſe thou canſt not denye, but that it agréeth with the time, betwéene yours, and that whiche the Romaines celebrated for the Gaulois and Greekes that were buryed in the Bullocke market. There is no difference as concerninge the time, but onely in thys, that yours is at the Plut. in Mar Pantheon and all Saints beginning of the moneth, and theirs in the ende. Furthermore thou canſt not deny, but that ther is conformitie betwéene the Pantheon of the Panims, and your feaſt of all Saintes: And euen as they had the feaſt of all the celeſtiall Gods, and that of the infernall Gods, and for the ſoules of the dead, haue not you alſo the lyke, celebrating after the feaſte of all the Sainctes whiche are in heauen, that of the dead which are yet detayned and kept in Purgatorye. They doe call Pantheon an auncient Temple which was dedicated vnto Cyble the great Goddeſſe, Cyble. mother of the Gods, and conſequentlye vnto all the other Gods, of whome hée beareth the name. For Pantheon ſignifieth as muche, as if wée ſhoulde ſaye, all Pompo. lst. de Roma. antiq. Barth. Marl. de antiq. Roma To. pog. ls. 6. ca. 6. S. M. uia la. Retende Gods, euen as wée ſaye, all Saintes. For they had thoſe Gods in ſuch reputation, as you haue the Sainctes, in the honoure of whome they haue celebrated the feaſte, and made ſacrifices in that Temple, whiche is at thys daye at Rome, and is called Saint Mary La Rotonde, bicauſe that it was made rounde lyke vnto a Bowle, for to repreſent the forme and faſhion of the worlde. But in ſteede that it was dedicated vnto Cyble, and to all the other Gods, it is nowe dedicated vnto Sayncte Mary, and to all the Saincts, to the ende that all your papyſtleall Gods ſhoulde haue ſuche honour, as thoſe of the Idolaters, and their feaſtes to hée regyſteed as well as theirs.

And ſo by that meanes Sathan is alwayes honoured in ſtéede of God, as hée was before vnder the name and tytle The maske of Sathan of Cyble and of other Gods and Goddeſſes, ſauynge that hée hathe chaunged thoſe olde names into other all newe and pleaſaunt and fauourable amonge the Chriſtyans, for to diſguyſe himſelfe, to the ende hée ſhoulde not bée knowen, and that vnder a goodly coloure hee maye the eaſelyer blaſpheme God, and diſhonoure the Virgin Mary and all the Saints and Sayntes vnder the coulour of honouringe them. And wythout ſpeakinge of other Saints and Sainctes, wée maye well knowe, howe hee woulde The conformitie of Cible and out Lady. Turrita Cybloe. Virg. Aene. 6. Cyble wering a crowne. Iuno and Diana queene of heauen. luno luctnd. Ouid. Faſt. 2. Plant. in Aulul Terent. in And Horat. in car. ſecu. Ourd. Meta. 9 S. Margaret Diand. Strongilio Diana the rounde. Praxitsles Plut. in num. haue the Virgin Mary to holde the place of Cyble, Iuno and Diana. For firſte of all hée hath cauſed the Temple of Cyble and others to bée dedicated vnto hir. And as Cyble dyd weare a Crowne, made after the faſhyon of a Towre, ſo hath hée founde the meanes to repreſente the Virgin Mary by a crowned Idoll, and to attrybute to hir yt tytle, that the Idolaters dyd gyue vnto Iuno and Diana, callinge hir Quéene of Heauen: and alſo gyuinge vnto hir the office to ayde and helpe women that are in trauayle wyth chylde, whiche amonge the Panyms was gyuen vnto thoſe two. Wherefore I beloeue that they haue added Saynt Margaret, to the ende there ſhoulde bée two, as well as the Panyms had. Furthermore, as the Panims had a Diana, whiche was called, Strongilios, that is to ſay, La Rotonde or the Round, bicauſe of the Kounde Image, whiche Praxitiles, the ercellent Paintour hadde made for them, and that the Romaines had the Temple of Veſta rounde. Alſo hath hée founde the practize to make for vs a Saynct Mary La Rounde, or Rotonde. I dooe remember that whyche Plinye wytneſſeth and other Autheurs, howe that that Temple was alſo at the begynninge dedicated vnto Iupiter the reuenger, and afterwardes vnto all the other Gods, bycauſe that almoſte all the Images of them all were Pliny. li. 34. c. 3 & . 36. c. 15 there.

Theophilus.

I beléeue that at the leaſtwyſe Euſebius wpll not deme that whiche theire owne bookes doe wytneſſe and confirme, namely Platine, Durand and Rergomeuſis, In vi Bontfac 4 Rat. dmi. eff. li. 9. Rub defeſt. emni. fancto. Boniface. 4. Phocas. Supl. chro. li. 10 The feaſts of Martirs & Co ſeſſors. Gregory. 4. Durant. Rat. Ami. off. h. 7. Rub. de feſt omnium Sanct. Platt. in vita Grego. 4 Bergo. Suppl. chro. li. 11. wytneſſinge the ſame, howe that firſt of all Pope Boniface the fourth, demaundeo that Temple of the Emperour Phocas, who after that hée had obtayned it, deoycated it vnto our Lady, and to all the Martyres, and commaunded that the feaſt ſhoulde bee celebrated the twelfe daye of the moneth of Maye, in the honour of the Mirgin Mary and of all the Martyres, for that cauſe it was called the feaſt of the Dhrgin Mary vnto the Spartyrs, bycauſe that then the feaſts of the Confeſſors was not then made, vntyll the tyme of Pope Gregory the fourth, who tranſported and changed that feaſte, from the twelfe of Pay, unto the firſte daye of Nouember, and there dedycated not onely vnto the Apoſtles and Martyrs, but alſo vnto the Trmitie, vnto all the Angels, Confeſſors, Saints and Saintes in Paradiſe. And thys was done about the yeare 831. Now it is good reaſon, ſith that all the Saints and Saintes of Paradyſe haue theire feaſte, that the oorc ſoules of Purgatorye ſhoulde haue theirs alſo.

For they haue a great deale more néede then the Saints which are already at reſt, for to comforte and refreſh them a lyttle. And therefore Odillo, that holye Abbot of Saint The feaſt of the dead Odillo. P. Damnia. Rat. diui. off. li. 7. Rub de off mort. Rerge. li. 12 Iohn. 16 Cluny moued with pittie & compaſſion, found and ordayned the firſte, that after the feaſte of all Saints, the commemoration of the dead ſhoulde bée alſo celebrated, firſt in Burgony, the whiche Pope Iohn the ſirtene allowed, and cōmaunded to be obſerued thorowout the other churches, about the yeare 982. Wherefore thou mayeſt knowe and iudge whether that ſuche Ceremonyes and manner of dooinges bée verye auncient, and whether Ieſus Chriſte and hys Apoſtles, or the auncient Fathers haue bene the Authours and inuentours of them: and whether they are taken of their inutation. And to the tende thou ſhouldeſt haue better deuetyon vnto the feaſte, I woulde gladlye thou ſhouldeſt underſtande, that it hathe bene the ſauctitie and vertueo of that Pope Iohn, who hath allowed it and recommaunded and betoo'se it to his Churches, and the praiſes that Platine The manners & life of Pope Iohn. Plat in vitn, lon. 16. gaue vnto him, in writing his life, ſaying after this manner: that after that he was come vnto the Popedome, hée burned with a meruailous hatred againſt ye Clergy. Wherfore he was greatly hated of them, chiefly bicauſe he gaue & beſtowed all offices, all diuine and humaine things, vnto Beneflces & offices giuen by parentage. his parents, friendes & kinſfolke, not hauing any care of the honour of God: of which errour hee hath ſo put theſe in poſſeſſion which came after him, that it is come vnto our age. He alſo witneſſeth that in that time appeared a burning Comete, in ſigne and token of euills to come.

For then there was great famine and peltilence and great Bergo li. 12. Couicte. earthquakes: of which euills Platine attributeth all the fault, vnto the pride and rapacifie of the Pope, and for diſo piſing and contempninge of God and men. That was alſo about that time as the tranſubſtantiation and the Tranſubſtantiation. Berengarius. bergo. li. 12 Plat. in lo. 15 De couſec. diſt. 2. ca. ego. Maſſes for the dead tooke great vertue and credite, and that Berengarius, whom his very enemies were conſtrayned to prayſe, bicauſe of his doctrine and holy life, was conſtrayned to benie himſelfe, bicauſe that hée loued rather to abide in the ſentence of the auncient churche, touching the Euchariſtia or ſacrament, then to receiue that newe oppnion, of that monſtrous tranſubſtantiation, whiche hath bene the cauſe of ſo many Ioolatryes and horrible blaſphemyes. Thou mayſt thereby vnderſtande friende Euſebius, the great goodneſſe which almoſt all at one tyme are come into the Church, & what deuotion wée ought to haue, ſéeinge the eſtate of the ſame, and the authours of thoſe goodly Ceremonies. It is not then wythout cauſe that the burninge Comete hath appeared, ſith that the fire The ſignification of the Comete. of Purgatory is waren ſo hot & flameth ſo much. But now it is not needefull that & doe expound the cauſes whiche moued Odillo to doe that hée dyd, ſith that they haue bene already touched before.

Hillarius.

It ſufficeth now, friend Euſebius, that thou ſhouldeſt know & perceiue how you agrée with the auncient Romaines. There is not much difference, but in the tyme, in that that they haue taken Nouember in ſtéede of February and May.

Thomas.

Wée haue yet an other, in the month of Ianuary the next day after the feaſt of ſaint Hillary. But it continueth not all the day, as in Nouember, at the leaſt in our Citie. I know not whether that be One other feaſt for the dead in lanuarye the cuſtome in all other countryes, the feaſt continueth but in the morning, vntyll ſuche time as the hygh Maſſe is ſong. Ouid. Paſt. 1. Interesſidie. Feaſts cue in peces or a ſunder

Hillarius.

That is not farre vyfferinge from February. Wée may put betwéene them that which the Romaines voe call Interciſes, that is to ſaye, to cut a ſunder, breake in two, and parted in the myddle: bicauſe that they were common, both to the Gods and men, and that we muſte celebrate them, vntyll the diuine ſeruice bée ended: Afterwardes it was lawfull to euery one, all the reſidue of the daye to retourne to his labour & buſineſſe. Alſo the Prieſts, in that day, after that one hath done vnto them the ſeruice of wine, and that they haue gathered their grapes in the morning, and receyued the offeringes in their Paſſe, the which by reaſon of thoſe they ſinge it, doe gyue leaue vnto euery one to trauaile as much as hée wyll. I woulde gladly that they woulde voe ſo, in manye other feaſtes, in which they wyll not gyue leaue vnto the poore labourers to trauayle, although that they haue cleanſed and emptyed Other feaſtes of the dead. their purſe in the morning. There are alſo in many places other feaſtes for the dead, as the Sunday after Caſter, and after Pentecoſt, that they voe aunſwere thorowly to The mondayes dedicated vnto the dead. that which Romulus inſtituted: beſides all the mondayes of all the wéekes which are dedicated vnto the dead. As touching the forbidding of mariage, it agréeth berye well The forbidding of mariage with the auncient Romaine lawe. It was forbiddē the Romaines certeine daies in February, March, May, and Iune. But ours did begin them ſooner, & cōtinued their forbidding longer time. For during al the Aduent, almoſt a month, before The aduent the feaſt of the natiuitie, their lawe is in force, vntyll S. Hillary: by & by afterwards the Septuageſima beginneth in the which the forbidding beginneth againe, & coutinueth Septuageſima. ex concslie. hil. 33. 9. 4. Non oportes &. c. née vxorem. Rogatichs Decre. ext. do. for. The times of faſtuings 33. 7. 4. the ſpace of thrée ſcore and tenne bayes, vntil the Octabis of Caſter. Afterwardes come the Rogations, and Rouations in whiche lawe is in force vntill Trinitie Sunday, and almoſt thrée wéekes before Saincte Iohn, as the decrées voe contayne the foure times Vigiles, and all the dayes of faſtings ioyned vnto them.

Theophilus.

Who is hée that doubteth, but that the ſame is a great curſe and vengeaunce of God vppon the Chriſtian people, to bée ſubiect vnto ſuch a tyranuy of body and conſcience, and to bee in worſe condition then the Danims? But they are well worthy of it. For ſith that they had rather to be made a Panim then a Chriſtian, of whom they would haue but the name, it is good reaſon that they bée ſubject vnto the lawes of the Panims, and that GOD voe ſhewe vnto them in effect that they are unworthy of the name they beare, ſith that under the tytle of Chriſtians they followe no other ſtudy nor religion but of the Panims. For the ignoraunce, ſuperſtition and curſe is ſo greute, that notwithſtanding that that miſerable people is already ſo much oppreſſed and kept downe wyth tyranny, and that a great part of the time of holy mariage and of that holy Vrdmaunce of God is taken from them, yet. béeing not content wyth the ſame, they themſelues of their owne wyll doe depriue themſelues at other tymes and ſeaſons which is not forbidden them, hauinge no other cauſe nor reaſon, but their ſuperſtition and enchauntments. For there are yet at this days many, yea, amonge thoſe vnto whom the Goſpell hath bene purely prenched, which make it a great doubte not onely to mary in the time which was forbidden by ye prieſts, although they haue libertie to do it, but chicfly in yt month of Pay: And for none other cauſe but for a fooliſh opinion & perſwaſion that they haue, that the goods & houſchould ſtuffe of thoſe yt are maried in Day, are wicked and euill fortunate. And I cannot iudge that that opinion came any other way, then of that ſuperſtition of the Romaines of which thou haſt ſpoken off.

Hillarius.

I beléeue no leſſe. But the better to trye out that matter let vs conſider now the holineſſe of thoſe goodlye 33. 44. ca. Non oportet & ca. Non liect ex conel. La •• he . & m. irli pap. Lent. Shroſtide. Saint Galiffre. Saint Panſard Bacchanales Baechus The feaſt of fooles. Qutriu les Ouid. Faſt. 2 laws. Firſt of al ye Septuageſima, Sexageſima & Quinquegeſima, dofal cōmonly in theſe three months, Ianuary, February, & March. Afterwards Lent draweth on who cōtinueth many times euen vnto ye moneth of April the which for his entering in, hath his Shrouetide, that is to ſay, the great feaſt and ſolempnitie of ſaint Galiffre and Saint Panſard which is in ſtéede of Bacchanales, the feaſt of God Bachus, the God of drunkenneſſe, and of Comus the God of the gluttons, I haue alſo forgotten that the Romaines did celebrato the feaſt of fooles which was called the Quirinales the eightéene day of February?

Thomas.

Did it continue many dayes?

Hillarius.

It had but one day, which namely was dedicated vnto it, but if they would do him no wrong, it ought to continue al the yeare. At ye leaſt wiſe, from Chriſtmas vnto Shrouetide, it is not euill kept among the papiſticall Chriſtians, and chiefly The feaſt of the kings. the day of the kings, and the others following.

Theophilus,

We doe honour them to much to call it The feaſt of mad men. the feaſt of the fooles. For it is more worthy to be called the feaſt of madde men, and of thoſe that are out of theire wittes.

Hillarius.

But for to retourne vnto the Bacchanalos, to Sainct Panſard, and to the forbiddinge of mariage, Geneſ. 2. d 23 1. Cor. 7. . 2 Heb. 13. . 4 Hiſt. trip. . 2 ca. 13. o. 323. diſt. 3 . c. Nicena. ought it not to haue ſuffired the Pope to haue (againſt the word of God, and the auncient Counſayle, namelye of Nice) forbidden at all times mariage vnto all thoſe of the Church, Prieſtes, Moonke and Nonnes, but that hée muſt alſo extende his crueltie and tyranny, vppon all other eſtates, almoſt the one halfe of the yeare? Howe muche more tollerable and reaſonable is the auncient lawe of the Romaines then thys new tyranny? What reaſon haue they to allow it?

Theophilus.

That ſame of the heretickes Manacheans, Manicheans. Auguſt. de he ••• ad quid 〈◊〉 dema. Cal. Rho let aut, 26. •• , 20 who haue ſuſtituted new Ceremonies as thoſe heere, and baue forbidden mariage, and the vſe of certayne meates, affirming that by thoſe thinges, one obtayneth the holye Ghoſt, whom alſo Tatianus hath followed, who was the authoure and Prince of the ſecte of the Eucratiſtes, which Herom. Eucratiſts. Tatianus. were called by that name bicauſe they abſtained from wines and from certaine meates and from mariage. For Eucratiſtes ſignifieth aſuch as ſober, the which Seuerus hath augmented, of whome they are called alſo Seuerians. Seuerus. Plat in vit. pi . 1.

Hillarius.

The Prieſts and Moonkes are very much afrayde, leaſte the race of ſuch people ſhoulde periſhe. Therefore haue they made ſo many lawes and haue trauayled ſo muche to maintaine their errors.

Euſebius.

When God woulde giue his lawe in the Exo. 19. c. 15 Abſtinence & ſeparation from women 1. Reg. 21. a. 4. Dauid & Abi melech. loel. 2. d. 16 mountaine of Sinay, did not Moſes admoniſhe and warne the people to ſanctifie and make themſelues holy, and that they ſhould not come néere their wiues for thrée dayes? And what did Dauid ſignifie by the aunſwere that hée made vnto Abimelche, when he had ſaide vnto him that he had no common bread, but that which was hallowed, and that he aſked, whether y he and his youngmen were cleane and kept themſelues from woemen. And Dauid anſwered the Prieſt and ſaide vnto him, of a trueth woemen hath bene locked vp from vs about a thrée dayes? Furthermore when the Prophet Ioel exhorted the people vnto penaunce, faſtings and prayers, wherfore ſaide hée amonge other thinges, let the bridegroume goe foorth of his chamber, and the bride out of hir cloſet? Doth not the holy Scripture declare ſufficiently vnto vs, how we ought to diſpoſe and giue our ſelues vnto penaunce, faſtings and prayers, chiefely when the ſolemne feaſtes doe approche? and that when wee muſt goe vnto the Lords table for to The preparation the lords table. receiue his precious body and bloud, is it not then requiſite, that we ſhoulde abſtayne both from woemen, and from all other carnall pleaſures.

Theophilus.

I deny not, but that God requireth of vs, a great honeſty, moveſty and helmes, and that we ſheult abſtaine, not only from things which of themſelues are euill and wicked, and by he forbidden at all times, but it is alſo requiſite ſome time, to abſtaine from things which Abſtinence frō things l vvfull. 33. 9 4. ca. Quo •• eſcun que Ambr. ſer. de adunt. 1. The. 4. a 4 1. Pet. 3. a. 1 1. Cor. 6. c. 15. •• he. 5. a. To keepe his veſſell in houor are lawfull & permitted, when there is a queſtion of ſome thing of great unportance: if ſuch things might anything at all be a let vnto vs. And when the auncient Doctors haue ſpoken of ſuch things, they haue ſo vnderſtanded it. But although that God deſireth that euery one ſhoulde know, how to kéepe his veſſell in holines and honour, & that none do defile his owne body, nor his wiues, nor of any other whoſoeuer it bée, thorow to great concupiſcence of the fleſh, and that he alſo requireth in the holy mariage, a Chriſtian continency, chaſtity and ſobriety, as from wine and other creatures. Muſt he therefore forbid mariage vnto ſome for euer, and vnto other ſome a great parte of the time, without excepting any perſon whatſoeuer hée or ſhée bée, of what eſtate, condition or infirmity that may bee in them?

Hillarius.

You doe wronge Theophilus. For they The Popes diſpenſations. are not ſo rigorus as you make them to bée, and haue not ſuch ſtrayte and rigorus lawes, but that for money they will releaſe and diſpenſe with it. But whiche is more, I beléeue that who ſoeuer will bring money vnto yt Pope, and agrée with him, that he will diſpenſe with the childe to mary with his mether, the father with his daughter: the brother with his ſiſter: without hauing regarde vnto conſanguinitie, diuine lawes nor humaine.

Theophilus.

I doubt it not, except the ſhame and feare of men do let and hinoer it ſooner then the feare of God.

Hillarius.

By what right ſhal he refuſe vnto others, yt which ſometime ſome amongſt them are permitted? For which I wil haue none other witnes at this time but the Cpitath of Lucretia, yt daughter of Pepe Alexander, the whiche was made in Latine after this manner and to Pope Alexander this effect.

Within this tōbe here now doth ſleep, who had to name Lucrece The Epieath of Lucre •• In all things ſhee cōpard was, to I hass whore of Grece. Whom Alexander Pope of Rome, when ſhe remaind in life Eſteemed as his daughter in law, and vſed as his wife.
Theophilus.

I demaunde of thée friende Euſebius, if God hath forbiden mariage vnto euery perſon, eſtates and conditions, or in any times and ſeaſons, wherefore doth yt Pope diſpenſe for money? For that which God hath forbidden and prohibited, cannot be lawefull for any money that one can diſburſe. If God hath not forbidden it, wherfore doth he forbyd that which God hath permitted? you cannot deny, but that he is a Tyrant, theeſe and a piller of the poore people.

Hillarius.

I will reſolue thy doubte and will vanquiſh thée by a plaine and cléere induction, wilt thou not Induction. graunt vnto mée, that God is aboue the law, and that he is ſubiect vnto none.

Theophilus.

I do not gaine ſay it.

Hillarius.

Afterwards, do you not cōfeſſe, that God which made yt law, can diſpenſe with it at his pleaſure, and that where there is diſpenſation of God, there is no more lawe?

Theophilus.

I alſo agrée vnto thée in that.

Hillarius.

For where there is no law, as Sainct Paul Rom. 4. . 15 witneſſeth there is no tranſgreſſion, nor ſinne.

Theophilus.

I do nowe perceiue where vnto thou wilt come. I well perceiue that you minde to conclude, that ſith that the Pope is God in y earth, he may wel diſpenſe with thoſe lawes that he giueth here in earth, & that after his diſpenſation there remaineth no more ſinne, vnto them which offēde againſt his lawes, when thoſe lawes are taken frō thē, by him that gaue it thē. But of this thy concluſion, I wil bring foorth yet another conſequence, by the which I will proue, yt he which doth againſt the lawes of yt Pope, which haue no foundation by the worde of God, doth not ſinne but againſt y Pope, & not againſt God, for To ſin againſte the Pope and agaynſt God. there is no trāſgreſſion againſt God, but in that wheroff there is a law of God. Now there is in none of all thoſe things wheroff, wee haue ſpoken: any law giuen of God. Wherfore who ſo that maryeth in thoſe times prohibited, he ſinneth not againſt God, but againſt yt Pope only? not yt I wil deme, but yt we muſt obey yt higher powers & rulers, not only bicauſe of feare ye we ſhould haue of thē, & of the power that they haue ouer vs, but alſo for cōſcience Rom. 13. •• 〈◊〉 & obediences vnto Magultaces Chay for conſentence ſake, as the holy Apoſtle teacheth vs, giuing vs thereby to vnderſtand that we ought to obey our Princes & Lords, with a good conſcience, although that we feare not they? puniſhment and bengeaunce, bicauſe we muſt ſerue them as thoſe which ſerue God and not men, whiche is but his inſtrument and ſeruaunt. But the ſame ought to be vnder ſtanded, in that wherein the power is lawfull, and that one may obey it, without hurting the ſoule, & perill of conſcience, notwithſtanding that one ſhoulde receiue damage, either in bodie or goods. For in another caſe & condition Col 3 d 13. the aunſwer of the Apoſtle abydeth alwayes firme. It is better to obey God then men.

Hillarius.

I well agrée vnto that thou ſayeſt: But thou Act. 5. f. 19. haſt not yet hit the white. For I am a more ſubtill Logyeioner then thou thinkeſt that I am, nor I ſtay not only vpon common arguments. And therfore let vs retourne againe vnto nune induction, the which I haue not yet ended. 〈◊〉 God the Pope 13 Iohn. 14. d 30 I am very wel contented to confeſſe vnto thée, that the Pope is a God in the earth, but in that ſence, as the diuell is called in the holy Scripture the prince of this worlde: 1. Cor. 3. 24. the God of this worlde: the ruler of darkenes: or in that ſence, as wee do gods the Idols & ſtraunge Gods. But there is yet a greater God and more puiſſant then Ephe. 1. d. 20 he, vnto whom he and all other ſuch Gods like vnto him, are ſubiect and obedient. Now I demaunde of thée where The e. de of mans Iſa. to ought we to referre the ende of mans life?

Theophilus.

Unto him from whom it tooke his béeginning. Geneſ. 1. a 1 Geneſ. 1. 2 7 Eſa. 41. 3. 2. Pro. 16 2 4 Act. 14. c. 15. Act. 17. f. 24. Bphe. 1. 2. 1

Hillarias.

It is then of God, who is the beginning and ende of all thinge, who hath made al things for himſelfe, of whom all proceeded, and vnto whom it muſte t urne againe.

Theophilus.

It is very true.

Hillarius.

I demaund of thee more ouer, vnto what ende doeſt thou thinke, that all thoſe popiſhe ceremonies do tende: As for mée, I can The ende of the Popish lavves perceiue but that they haue taken their ſight & regarde to none other ende but vnto the money. If there bee any which will deny it, I will proue it like a good Logicioner, the cauſe by his effects. Sith then that the finall cauſe is the money, vnto whoſe honoure all theſe lawes do referre themſelues, and that the ſame is the author, I do alſo cō clude, The great God of the people. Mammon Mat. 6 c. 24. Luc. 16. e. 13. that it is the God, vnto whome all theſe thinges ought to be brought: the which Ieſus Chriſt calleth Mammou, if you wil know his name in yt Hebrewe or Siriake tongue: Dr if you had rather in Greeke, we will cal him Plutus: whom Ariſtophanes magnifieth ſo much, that he Plutus. Ariſtoph. in Pluto. ſaith, that there is no God ſo great, no not lupiter hymſelfe, vpon which he hath not rule and dominion, & which is not ſubiect vnto him.

Theophilus.

That agréeth not euill, with the witneſſe of Salomon, ſaying: vnto money are all thinges obedient.

Hillarius.

If you will in like manner giue it a latine Eccle. 10. d. 19 name, and to make it a Goddſſe, you may call it Pecunia, The goddes Pecunta. that is money, as the auncient Latiniſts, who haue made of it a Goddeſſe. Wherevnto agréeth very well the common tranſlation, in that place which you alledged of Salomon, ſaying, vnto money are all things obedient, Wherefore I am abaſhed, of that whiche the Poet luuenal hath Cal. leo. aut. li. 21. ca. 34. ſpoken, for that men haue not made vnto it a Temple, nor conſecrated any Aulter, ſith that it is ſo puiſſant a Goddeſſe, vnto whom is attributed the title of the Dmnipotent and altogether mightie, whiche belengeth vnto God alone. For it is commonly ſayd: Money doth althings.

Theophilus.

Sainct Auguſtine following the authoritie of Varro, alſo ſaith yt the auncients haue called yt God, Aeſculanus. in Latine, Aeſculanus, becauſe that the firſt money yt was made, was of Braſſe.

Hillarius.

You may already perceiue, that Plutus and Pluto were bretheren: or at the leaſt coſin Germaines: ſauinge that the one reigned vppon the earth, and the other vnderneath the earthe. Nowe foraſmuche as that GOD, whether you call him Mammon, Plutus, Pluto, Aeſculanus, or Pecunia, bée the Authoure, and lawe gyuer of all thoſe lawes, by good right and reaſon hee maye dyſpence with them. And when they haue his diſpenſation, there remayneth no more ſinne, as in reſpecte of the Pope.

For hee diſpenſeth with more greater things, inſomuch that hée will not ſuffer the vſe of mariage, to eate fleſh, and white meates, but that one hadde néede, to ſell GOD, to eate, and to doe that hee woulde doc: I meane the Gods, that hee himſelfe hathe made, and of whiche his Prieſtes call themſelues the makers, whiche yet neuertheleſſe are but the creatures of the Selling of God. The Creators of the Creator. Stella derc. The creators of me Pope Pope: Do not the moſt greateſt Cardinals whiche for ſuche doe acknowledge and confeſſe themſelues.

Wherein there ſtandeth a merueilous caſe, the whiche Solin hathe forgotten, when that hee made his booke of the meruaples and wounders of the worlde.

For that is a caſe the like whereoff, was neuer ſeene, that the Creator, ſhoulde be a Creature, and the Creature, a Ceator: as it appeareth by that that the Pope is the Creator of the Cardinals, his Creatures: Afterwards the Cardinals, his Creatures are Creators of their Creator? For they doe create and make the Pope. After the ſame manner woulde they dce with their God whiche they make and vnmake, afterwards do make him againe as they liſte.

Theophilus.

For my parts, I will net much reply againſt thy ſolution: But I know not whether that Euſebius wilbe contented. And therefore I will ſhewe vnto him other reaſons. If the Pope and the Prieſtes doe loue ſomuch contynencye and chaſtytye, as they make a ſhewe, wherefore haue they not rather followed the counſell of Saint Paule, then to ſorge and make newe lawes altogether contrary both to the Apoſlolicall doctrine, and the lawe of God?

Who is hée that better knoweth man, his vertue, conſtance and continencye, or his infirmitie, fragilitye and incontinency, then GOD who hath made and faſhioned Geneſ. 1. 2. him, and who hathe throughly proued him?

Then if God who beſte did know the burthen of man, Pſa. 139. 2. 1. that hee himſelfe woulde not reſtraine him by lawes of continencye, whiche myght haue béene an occaſion of ſinne and incontinencie, but hée hathe ordeyned the holye mariage for a remedye, the whiche hée woulde The ordinance and vſe cl mariage Mat. 9. b. 9 1. Cer. 7. b11 Heb 13. a. 4. haue common vnto all eſtates, and vnto all ſorte of people whiche haue not the gyſte of contynencye, and that it was permitted at all tymes and ſeaſons.

Then wherefore is it that thoſe here will compell ſo longe time men and woemen to liue chaſte and doe ſeperate the Spouſe from the Spouſes, the Duſbande from the wyfe, for to giue vnto them occaſion to fall into whoredome? And they do not the ſame for two or thrée dayes as the Iſraelites dyd, when GOD woulde manyfeſt himſelfe vnto them in the Mounte Sina.

They hadde good occaſion to ſanctifie and prepare The anſvvere to the place of the 19. of Exodus. themſelues for to ſee and beholde that greate maieſtie of God, and to receiue that holye lawe, that hée would giue vnto them. And yet neuertheleſſe Moſes did not aſſigne vnto them but thrée dayes, for to ſeperate themſelues from their wines.

Abimelech required no more of Dauid and hys The place of the 1. of Samuel. 21. li. 5 The halowed bread. Mat. 12. a. 3. compaignions: although that hee did giue vnto them of the halowed breade, whiche was not lawefull to eate but for the Prieſtes of the lawe onelye. And yet thoſe thinges are not happened, but for one tyme. They haue not made lawes nor rules yearely or perpetuall, nor common vnto all men.

In like manner alſo Ioel gaue not a prefixte day vnto The place of loel. 2. c. 12. Exortation vn to •• pentance. the Iſraelites, but aomonyſhed and athorted them only to returne vnto the Lord, and to leaue off all other things, and to forget all carnall pleaſures and delites, for to runne vnto his mercy thorow true repentaunce infaſtinges & prayers, to the ende he may withdraw his beatings and ſcorgings, the which hee had alreadie ſtretched foo th euer them, But he compelled no man. Such erhortations and admonitions are very honeſt and requiſite in the Churche, chiefely in the times of calamities & miſeries, when God threateneth vs with his furour & Iudgement, But it is more then neceſſarie to follow the moderation ye which Sainct Paul, in ſuch caſe hath vſed, chiefly The counſel & moderat •• of S. Paul. 1. Cor. 7 b 11 in this time now, for that the worlde is ſo much corrupted and depraued, and ſomuch ſubiect vnto hir carnal affections. The Apoſtle knowing mans infirmitie, durſſe not forbid mariage to any man, of what qualitie ſoeuer he were off: not only for a day: but admoniſhed and commaū ded, by Gods authoritie, vnto all thoſe who haue not the gift of continency and chaſtity, for to reframe themſelues The gift of ō tinen •• c without beeing polluted & defiled, neither in their bodyes or ſoules, thorow the burning concupiſcence and worke of the fleſhe, to mary for to auoyde fornication & whoſedome, and for to keepe their bodies, hearts, and conſciences Seperation of the huſbande and the wife for a time. in all puritie and holines. And he woulde not onely ſuffer, that the huſbande and the wife ſhoulde ſeperate themſelues, the one from the other, ercept it be but for a ſmall & little time, yea for to watche vnto faſting and prayer. And vppon ſuch condition, that the ſeperation be not ouer long, but that by and by they returne together againe, leaſt that Sathan, by that meanes do finde occaſion to tempte them, thorow theyr incontinency, and to iſtame their concupiſcence: And that thorow the fragilite of the fleſhe, the one or the other of the parties do not fall into ſome faulte & inconuenience. And the cauſe wherefore that holy Apoſtle hath written after that ſort of thoſe matters, that is bicauſe (as he ſaith) he would not put the haulter about any To put the halter about ones n cke. mans neeke: giuing vs thereby to vnderſtand, that thoſe whiche forbyd or hinder the holy mariage, doe put the rope aboute the necke of thoſe vnto whome they haue forbidden, and dooe put them in peryll of dampnation. Wherefore I am meruaylouſly abaſhed to thincke, to what ende thoſe worſhypfull prelates of the Churche, haue thought, in forbiddinge the mariage and eſpouſals vnto all, and for ſo longe time: and that the ſtewes continued open at all tymes. Doe they not well declare thereby that they doe followe the lawes and decrees of that greate whoore of Babilon, the mother of fornication? Apoc. 17. 21

Euſebius.

Thou condempneſt thy ſelfe by thine owne woordes. For howe wyll they proue the whooredome, when they require continencye and chaſtitie in mariage? Thou regardeſt not, that in condempninge the Prelates, whiche are nowe in the Church, and following thy affections thou doeſt alſo condempne the auncient doctors and counſayles. For howe manye tymes Ambr. ſ . de aduent. & in Epiſt. 1. Cormt. 33. 9. 4. c. ſetatis quotieſ un que , Chriſtiano. Qu . haue Sainct Amborſe, Chriſoſtome, Sainct Hierome, Saincte Auguſtine and Saincte Gregory, erhorted the maryed folke vnto contineneye, and to abſteyne from carnall woorkes in the tyme of faſtynge and prayers, and on the ſolempne feaſtes: and chieflye vppon thoſe dayes that wee muſte goe vnto the Lordes table.

Theophilus.

Peraduenture, friende Fuſebius, thou ſpeakeſt better then thou thinckeſt: Thou dyddeſt not ſpeake altogether euill, that they haue erhorted: but there is greate dyfference betwéene erhortation and forbiddinge, counſayle and commaundement. I denye not but that they haue made ſuch erhortations and admonitions vnto the people, as the holy Apoſtle did vnto the Corinthians. Wherein wée may followe them, euen as they haue followed the Apoſtle: who as wytneſſeth Sainte Auguſtine hymſelfe, woulde not onelye Li. de adulte. coning. 33. 9. 4. c. Apoſtolus ſuffer that the maryed perſons ſhoulde make any ſeperation from the bed, at no manner of tyme, not for to watche vnto faſtinge and prayer, but thorowe the conſent of the one and the other. Foraſmuche then as the auncient Doctors doe follow that rule, wée wyll not ſpeake gaynſt them, if they vſe it onelye for admonytions and erhortations, leauinge in ſuch caſe euerye one at his lybertie, wythout layinge vnto anye man bonde, waight or neceſſitie, which may induce hym to ſinne, and that hys infirmitye cannot beare it. For euen as wée ought not to conſtraine and compell man vnto more greater continencie and chaſtity then hée may haue, and that it is not lawfull for hym to vſe the holye maryage which God hath gyuen vnto hym for a remedye, ſo wee muſt not condempne thoſe vnto whome GOD hath gyuen more greater gyſte of continencye, if they vſe it to the honour of God, both out of mariage and alſo in mariage. For the honeſtye and continencie cannot bée too great in vs.

Hillarius.

No truely, if it bée truely & wythout ſaynedneſſe, and that in ſtéede of chaſtitie, there bée not ſecrtneſſe and priuineſſe, and that one doo not receiue the rule Chaſtitie and ſecretneſſe. The Monkish prouerbe and the prouerbe of the Moonkes, ſaying: Si non caſte tamen caute: that is, if not chaſtlye, yet let it bée priuely.

Theophilus.

So dooe I vnderſtande it. But on the contrarye, as ſoone as one commeth to reſtraine the faithfull more then God woulde, and that the Apoſtle durſte not take it in hande, there is no man of ſo great authoritie that I can allowe. For we cannot denie, but that among the aunciences there were ſome more rigorous and contrary vnto mariage then was lawfull, and chiefly Hierome contrary vnto mariage Hierome, who ſo muche praiſed virginitie and wydowhoode, that oftentimes hée dyd iniury vnto maryage: And it ſéemeth that hée would condempne it. As it appeared in his writinges againſt Iouimanus and manye others. The ſuperſtition of Gregory 33. 9. 4. ca. vir. Sent. li. 4. diſt. 31. Sed ſorte. Alſo thou canſt not ercuſe Gregory of ſuperſtition, who ſayth, that the man whiche ſléepeth with his owne wife, ought not to enter into the Church, excepte that hée bée firſte waſhed wyth water, bycauſe that although that the mariage be permitted of God, yet neuertheleſſe man may not haue the companie of his wyfe, without ſinninge ſome thing. Wherefore hée hathe néede to purge hymſelfe. And affirmeth that that cuſtome hathe bene of longe tyme receyued and allowed in the Romiſh Church.

Hillarius.

Neuertheleſſe I cannot vnderſtande, vppon what place of the Scripture that cuſtome hath taken his The Ievvish vvaſshings Mat. 15. a. 9 Marc. 7. b 13 Perſ. Saty. 2. foundation, except vppon the traditions of the Phariſes and the waſhings of the Iews or Panims, and vpon the doctrine of Perſius, ſaying.

And for to doe as I thee bid fulfill this iuſt requeſt In Tiber early plunge thy head, euen twiſe or thriſe at leſt, And take the riuer water then, and all beſprinckle thee, By force and vertue of the which, the night ſhall purged bee.
Theophilus.

But when one hath grieuouſlye ſinned, can the water purge and make him cleane? I doubte not but that that ſuperſtition is yet of that which is left of the errour of thoſe who altogether dyd condempne and forbid mariage. But yet what ſuperſtition ſoeuer myght haue bene in ſome of the auncients, yet neuertheleſſe they forbidde not the mariage, nor the eſpouſalles, vnto thoſe whiche were not maryed, in what time ſoeuer it were, as afterwardes it was forbidden by theire ſucceſſors, 33. 9. 4. ex concilio Laodicenſ. Hilerd. Martini Pape. Nicol. ad cōſult Bulgar. ca. non oportet. Non licet. Nec vxorem extra. de Ma. contrac. in the counſailes of Laodocia, Hilerdien, and in that of Pope Martin and Nicolas, who did forbyd to celebrate maryages in thoſe times aboue lymited, and dyd commaund to ſeperate for a time, thoſe that ſhoulde doe the contrary.

Hillarius.

It is but reaſon, ſith that they haue begunne the daunce and moriſhe, to ende it altogether. Syth that they haue alreadye determined and concluded that in the Dbſequies, Mortuaryes, Funeralles, Feaſtes and in good deedes for the deade, to followe the auncyent Romaines theire aunceſtors, that they woulde alſo kéepe the other dependaunces of thoſe feaſtes and religions. Syth then that they woulde haue their Februales. they muſte haue alſo their Bacchanales which they celebrated at Shrouetide, and that then the mariage The conformity and deſormitie of Bacchanales & Shroftide ſhould bée forbydden, and the ſpouſe ſeperated from the eſpouſes, and the huſbande from hys wyfe, as the Panims hadde a cuſtome, for to prepare themſelues vnto the Bacchanales. But there is a ſmall dyfference, in that that the Panyms dyd firſte theire Lente, afterwardes their Shrouetide. For when they woulde conſecrate themſelues for to enter and bée receyued in the Religyon of Bacchus, or woulde prepare and ſanctifie themſelues for to celebrate the feaſte of Bacchanales Preparation vnto the Bacchanales Diomſiales and Dionyſiales, they dyd abſtayne themſelues a certeyne tyme, to touche a woman, and alſo to lye wyth their lawfull wyues, as Ouid wytneſſeth, wrytinge of the ſeperation of Hercules, after this manner. Ouid. Faſt. 2.

Now after that they feaſted had they gaue themſelues to reſt, And laide them downe in beds apart as pleaſde their fanſie beſt.

They did the ſame for to prepare themſelues more deuoutly to ſolemnize the day and feaſte due vnto God Bacchus which planted the Wine. It was ordeined to kéepe chaſtitie and continence and to abſteine at the leaſt tenne daies together, and after to waſh and purifie themſelues in the tenth day: But they dyd recompence and acquite afterwardes with all diſſolution, whooredome and all abhomination, the abſtinenco that they made before, as one maye ſee and thorowelye knowe by that whiche Titus Liuius hath written. But our ſauage and brutiſhe Chriſtians beginne by Shronetide, the Tit. Liui. dec. li. 9. Sauage Chriſtians. which hathe his begynninge immedyatly after Chriſtmas, and they continue it alwayes in augementynge the dyſſolutions more and more, vntyll Shroue ſundaye, Shroue ſund ye. and the feaſtyuall daye of Saynct Galiſſre, for to beginne the Lent wyth better douotion, and to prepare themſelues more deuoutiye vnto the Lordes table, to ye which yet they beare not ſo much reuerence, as the Panims dyd vnto their Bacchanales. For ye moſt part of the Prieſtes themſelues, who will not mary the newe maryed folke, and which doe ſeperate the huſbande from the wyfe, wyth much a dooe they can bée wythout their The poſeall Maſſe of the vvhores of the Prieſtes. whoores vpon Caſter day: But doe cuſtomely cauſe the pot to bée heated at the fire, and doe make ready the dinner whileſt that Monſieur the Canon, the Curate or iear maketh a good face or countenaunce in the Church, and adminiſtreth to others. Wherefore I greatly feare leaſt that during the time that they cauſed the wyues to bée ſeperated from their huſbandes, they doe play (if they can finde the meanes) ſuch a craft and deceite vnto the poore & ſimple huſbands, as the God Faunus dyd thinke to The craſte and deceit vvhich Faunus did thinke to doe to Hereules being ſeperated from his vviſe playe wyth Hercules whileſt that he dyd lye alone being ſeperated from bys wyues bed, for to prepare himſelfe to the ſolempnitie of the Bacchanales. For that good wyſe man dyd not thincke to fayle (accordinge to the witneſſe of that good doctour Ouid and diuine, before alledged) but Faſt. 2. to goe and ſanctifie the wyfe of Hercules in hir bed, if hée had not deceiued himſelfe, in goinge to the bed of Hercules in ſtéede of the other that hee ſought, in the which hee dyd ſinde Hercules, who made him to fall backward.

God knoweth whether ſuche fortune ſhoulde happen alwayes vnto the huſbandes when that ſuch Faunus dooe come to ſanctific their beddes, if they ſhould make them oftentimes to ſtumble wyth their heads forwarde. They The bleſſings of y bed of the ſpouſe. The Faunes, Satyres & Buls of the chriſtianitie may well goe to bleſſe the beddes of the ſponſes, for to learne the way, and to vnbleſſe them afterwardes. For thoſe are the true Faunes, Satyres and common Bulles, who wyll leaue no woman vndefiled, if thée woulde not bée ruled by others, but by them. But in theyre caſe there is no fable, as in Poetry, for they laye on in good earneſt wythout fayninge. Wherefore their Doctours Chaneſi. li. de 〈◊〉 . which compare the Prieſtes vnto the Cocke, dooe no wronge. For as there muſte bée but one Cocke, for a greate companye of Pullettes and Hennes, ſo is one Prieſte or Moonke in a Towne or Pariſhe inough, for to kéepe woemen from béeing barren. They wyll not leaue off, if they may poſſible, but to laye Cgges: But when they haue layde, and hatched them, let hym that lyſi bringe vppe the Chéekins. They dooe altogether contrarye to the Capons, whome one cauſeth to nouryſh & bring vp the young ones which they haue not hatched. They gyue that office vnto the huſbandes, and they ſhall bée lyke vnto the Coockowe, who goeth awaye after that hée hath layed in an other Birdes neaſte, and taketh no care who ſhall bringe vp hir younge ones, What ſayeſt thou friende Euſebius? Mée thincketh that I haue alreadye declared vnto thée by the occaſion of the feaſt of the deade, the goodly conformyties, betwéene your Relygion and the Panyms, touchinge the purifications and ſanctyfications. But I wyll yet declare vnto thée others, whiche dooe procéede of that ſame begynninge, or of one kindred. From whence C •• dlemas day. doeſt thou thincke that the feaſte of the Purificatyon of our Ladye hathe taken hys originall and begynninge?

Euſebius.

I doe beléeue that it was ordayned in the honour of God and the Uirgin Mary, and in remembraunce of the preſentation that ſhée made of hir ſonne Ieſus Chriſt, and of the goodly woorkes of God, whiche were done that day. Luc. 2. c. 2 .

Theophilus.

I doe not doubte, but that the auncyent Fathers, haue inſtituteh manye feaſtes to a good intent, chiefly for two cauſes. The ffrſt, for to drawe The cauſe of inſtitution of lea •• awaye the Panims and Iewes by lyttle and lyttle, chiefely thoſe which had alreadye receyued the Goſpell, from their Idolatrye and accuſtomed ſuperſtityon, and the better to plucke from them, that whiche they thought they coulde not well obtayne, excepte they dyd chaunge them into ſome other Ceremonyes: to the ende that they ſhould not thincke that they were The inſirmitie of man. altogether wythout relygion and diuine ſeruice. For they were yet verye weake, nor could? not eaſely forget their olde cuſtomes. Wherefore the auncient Fathers haue ſtudyed and determined to chaunge the I ••• iſhe and Paniſhe Ceremonies into ſome other faſhions more Chriſtian lyke. Therefore haue they ordayned many feaſtes, the whiche they woulde haue made to ſerue for remembrances and recoroations of the benefites of God, and for examples, whiche myght edyfie the Church or congregation, for to abolyſhe the remembraunce of the Idolls and ſtraunge Gods, whiche were ſo muche rooted in their heartes. Afterwardes, they dyd ſée by experience, that there was greate infirmytie, rudeneſſe and ignoraunce in the moſt greateſt part of the people, and that if they had not ſome feaſtes and Ceremonyes, many woulde followe thoſe of the Iewes and Panims, and haue fellowſhippe wyth their ſacrifices, and woulde ſette but little by the preachinge of the woorde of GOD. For there are manye, whiche woulde neuer ſette their foote wythin the Church doore, and woulde neuer bée founde in the Chriſtian aſſembles, if there were neuer any feaſte. And ſo by that The cōtemning of the Goſpell meanes they are enforced to let and ſtoppe ſuch euylls and daungers. Wherefore they haue bene conſtrained to ordaine feaſtes containinge the commemoration of the principall workes of God, and the principal articles of the faith, the better to imprint into the heartes of euery one, to the ende that there ſhould be none amonge the Chriſtians, but at the leaſt he ſhould know the principall pointes of the Chriſtian religion, vpon his fingers endes: But their inſtitution hath not taken ſo good effect nor ſuche iſſue as they looked it ſhould haue done. For man is of ſuch nature, that if he be without outward Ceremonies, either he will become altogether without God, & religion: Man without meanes, & hovv he vſeth the out vvard things or elſe hée wyll forge and inuent a newe, after hys owne brayne. On the coutrarye, if one gyue bym ceremonies, for to holde hym in religion, and in hys office, hée wyll make of them Gods and Idolls, and will put all hys truſt in the outwarde viſible, and materyall ceremonye and wyll forſake the principall and ſpyrituall thinges, ſignified by thoſe ceremonies: and in ſtéede to ſerue hym as for degrées and ſhewes for to attaine vnto the true ſpirituall religion, and to enter. into the true Temple of God, ſtayeth hymſelfe vppon the degrées, and before the gate, and wyll not enter into the houſe: As wée ſée by experience in the people of Iſrael, who haue alwayes more eſtéemed the exteriour ceremonies, then thoſe by which God woulde teache them. Now if the ſame be happened vnto the people of God, and to the Ceremonies ordayned of God hymſelfe. as all the Prophetes doo wytneſſe, what may happen vnto the ceremonies and traditions inuented by men? Eſpecially when the Churche hath falſe Prophetes, or neglygent and couetous paſtors and Shepheardes, whiche haue no care of the healthe and ſaluation of the people, and whiche doe not trauayle to pull awaye the ſuperſtytion and Idolatry, but rather to augement and increaſe it, for to abuſe the ignoraunce of the poore ſimple people to their profite and filthy gayne: curſed and too execrable is that which wée at this daye dooe proue and féele.

For in ſtéede to haue abolyſhed by the feaſt of Candlemas the olde Idolatrye, one hath augmented and confirmed it a greate deale more: the whiche is ſo muche the more daungerous, that the maſke and dyſguiſinge of Sathan is better paynted out, and hath founde out names and tytles more goodly and fauourable, as is that of the bleſſed Virgin the mother of Ieſus Chriſte, as hathe bene alreadye touched, in ſpeakinge of Pantheon.

Hillarius.

Let vs conſider all the matter worde by worde, and thou ſhalt ſée, whether that in the feaſt of The feaſts of yt Panims contay ned in the feaſt of Candel mas. Candlemas we doe not celebrate the Februales, Lupercales, Proſerpinales, and Florales, of the Panims. Firſt the name of the Puriſication agréeth very wel with the name of February and of the Februales, which doe alſo ſignifie Purification February Februales purifications. Afterwardes that purification is celebrated in the honour of the virgin Mary, in whoſe name, men doe bleſſe, conſecrate, and be are Candells, Tapers of War and Torches. The Panims had all the ſame, Lupere es Ser . Pe •• p. •• no Februla. Felrual . Februala Pu ••• cations of vvoemen The vvhips of the Lupele les. The 〈◊〉 of luno. The robes & gowns of the prieſts doing myracles or the like in their Lupercales in that ſame time andmoneth, and in the feaſt of the Godd elſe luno, the whiche they called Februla, Februalis, & Februata, which ſignifieth purified or puriſicatiue, bicauſe that the purifications were made in hir feaſt, and chiefely the ſame of the women, the which the Lupercall Prieſts do puriſie, beating them vpon hands and backe, with ſcourges and whippes made of Goates skill, and with the cloake of Iuno, with which they doe couer them, chiefely for to make them beare children. But I am certaine, that for to do ſuch miracles, the gownes and cloakes of the Prieſts and Moonkes haue more vertue, then the ſame of luno, and I béeléeue that the women which haue bene couered with it, ſhalbée barren by nature, except they retourne more ſertile and fruitfull.

Theophilus.

Sainct Auguſtine maketh alſo mention of a Goddeſſe named Meria, whom he alſo calleth Februa, Meria, bicauſe that the Panims do beléeue that ſhée purgeth the woemen of their iſſue of bloude, and ſtayeth them euery moneth, and chiefely after the conception and deliuering of childe. But there is no doubt but that was not that luno, of whom thou ſpeakeſt off.

Hillarius.

Wee cannot doubt of it: for that office was alſo aſſigned vnto hir, and for that cauſe they haue called Fluon. . it Fluona, by reaſon of the Flur and iſſue of bloud. But our Prieſts haue now giuen that office vnto the virgyn Mary, and do cauſe the woemen to be purified after their deliuery, when that they are ryſen from their bed as the Iewes dyd. As though Ieſus Chriſt had not bene yet come, and as though wee were vnder the Ceremouies of the lawe Theophilus, Durand alſo witneſſeth that in that ſame feaſt the Romaines from fiue yere to fiue yere, the firſt day Durand. Ral. d ••• off. it. . Rub. le purif. of Februarie did purifie all the night the Townes with Tapers & Torches lighted in the honour of Februa the Goddeſſe, the Mother of God Mars, whem they accompted for the God of Battell, to the ende he we ulde giue vnto Mars. them victorie. And they call alſo that feaſt Ambuibales, bicauſe of the proceſſions, in which they cary yt hoſtes and Amburbales. Sacraments that they do ſacrifice with, and in like manner the ſacrifices which they make by the Townes & Villages, and rounde about the ſame, and by the fields, as wée do in the Rogation wéeke and on Chriſtmas day. Furthermore, Regations men did ſacrifice that ſame very time vnto Pluto who for that cauſe, as witneſſeth Iſidorus, was named Februus, and they did in like manner do ſacrifice vnto other Februus. pluto. Sacratices vnto the infernall gods. VVatchings & Vigdes for the dead. The Cardelmas of Ceres and Preſerpma. Lactan. de fal. religl. li. 1. ca. 12. infernall Gods, for the ſoules of their aunceſters, and offered vnto them hoſtes. Watching all night, ſinging Vigiles with Tapers and Torches burning, to the ende they ſhould haue pitie and compaſſion of the poore ſoules that be dead. The women alſo, celebrated the feaſt of Candlemas in the honour of the Goddeſſe Ceres, and of hir daughter Proſerpina, bicauſe that Pluto, yt God of hell, for hir beautie had rauiſhed at the beginning of that moneth, & that hir mother Ceres ſéeking for hir by hils & valleys, béeing lighted in the night with torches & lampes in Actna yt hil of Sicile, as yt pocticall fables do witnes.

Hillarius.

Theu haſt all dged Durand, the maſter of yt papiſticall ceremonies, & I will alledge vnto thée an other, whiche is of no leſſe credit, of whom thou haſt already often times heard the witnes, the which I do bring forth againe, for confirmation of the words of Durand, out of that booke in which he deſcribeth the feaſt of Ceres, ſaying amonge other of his words as followeth.

Yea there in ſteede of flaming lampe Eaſt. 4 the Pine tree they did vſe, Hereoff the torch then graunted was for Ceres ſacred Muſe.
Theophilus.

For that cauſe (ſaith he) that in remembrance Pope ergius of the ſame, at the beginning of the moneth of February, they purified the Cittie, and went in proceſſion rounde about the ſame. In ſtéede whereoff Pope Sergius hath commaunded & eſtabliſhed the feaſt of the Purification of our Lady. And if thou thinke that I ſpeake without booke, and Rat. Diui. off. 7. Rub. de pu •• . that I haue inuented ye ſame of my ſelfe, I do ſend thée vnto your owne bookes, & chiefely vnto Durand, of whome I thinke, that there wanteth not much, but yt I haue recyted vnto thee word by worde almoſt all that which thou haſ e now heard of mée.

Hillarius.

He ought alſo to adde, that the wéepings, lamentations & ſower lookes that they do make in their temples the Paſſion weeke, the which they call the great & holy wéeke, & chiefely the apiſh trickes of the holy Friday, are procéeded from yt originall & beginning. For as yt women celebrated the Cereales & Proſerpinales with lamentations, repreſenting the ſorrow which Ceres did take bicauſe of hir daughter Proſerpina which was rauiſhed, & in like manner ye Adoniales, in yt honour of Venus, bewailing and lamenting hir friend Adonis whiche was killed. Doth it not alſo ſéeme yt they would in the virgin Mary & Ieſus Chriſte hir ſonne, renewe & ſet vp againe all theſe olde ſuperſtitions, nether more nor leſſe then if yt holy virgin were Ceres, Venus, or Iſis: & Ieſus Chriſte Adonis, or Adouis. Oſiris? For what differēce is there betwene their diuine ſeruice by yt which they would coſiterfeit the death & paſſiō of Ieſus Chriſt, and the ſame whiche the auncient Idolators dyd make in the honoure of Adonis and Oſiris? For they doe celebrate euery yeare in the moneth of Iune the feaſt, and in remembraunce of that that Adonis Theocri. 〈◊〉 . 23. Lue. in det syria Hiero. tn E •• . c. 8. was killed, and torne in peeced of a wilde Bore, they beat and ſtryke themſelues euery yeare, ntyll the bloude commeth foorth, and make greate ſorrwe and lamentations ſh •• ow out the whole coūtrey. And after yt they haue made an ende of beating themſelues & wéeping, they byd yt office after Adonis, euen as after thoſe that be dead. Afterwardes the next day they dyd ſay that hee was aliue againe, and that they lifted him up on hie in the ayre, and did ſhaue their heads, euen as the Aegyptians did when Apis was dead among them, and that they did celebrate the feaſt of Oſiris, which is alſo called Serapis For firſt 〈…〉 . of all the Prieſts of yt Goddeſſe lſis do ſhaue their heads and their beardes and ſtrike their breaſtes, and doe lament, euen as Iſis lamented, when ſhee had loſt but little ſonne Oſiris. Afterwardes, the childe was brought againe, as though he had bene found, and then al the ſorrow was changed into ioy. Therefore the Poet caine calleth him Oſiris, who is neuer ſerched for ynough. 〈◊〉 de ſal. 〈◊〉 li. ca. 21. luke. Saty. 8 for as Lactantius ſaith, they do looſe him alwayes, and alwayes finde him againe.

Theophilus.

I doubt not, but that the ſame is that ſame Idolatry which Ezechiell rebuked, ſpeaking of the woemen which wept for Thamus: as Saint Hieromecrpoundeth Thammus. Eze. 8. c. 14 it, or at the leaſtwiſe altogether the like.

Hillarius.

Now marke & conſider all the trayue yt our Prieſts do hold upon good friday. And thou wilt ſay that Good Friday. they haue loſt Ieſus Chriſt, or that he is dead, and that they would bury him. And afterwarded a day after that Eaſter Allel ya Caſter is come, Allelnya, whom they haue buried, is rayſed againe, and there is no more queſtion, but to laugh and reioyce, and to celebrate the feaſte which the Panims do call Hilaria, that is to ſay, the ioyfull, and tt,at they do celebrate H. 〈◊〉 . it in the honour of the God Kis, in laughing and reioyſing, and rehearſing ſome good thing to laugh at, as yt The God Ris Apul. aluti. aur. 11 3. holy fathers do in their Sermons, on yt feaſtes of Caſter, when they do giue the ſweet neſegayes unto the Ladyes, of which cuſtome are procceded yt bookes of De riſu Paſchalt, for to a waken their Auditories, and the better to ſanetifie the feaſt of the God Alleluya, with whom they do trumph all the yeare.

Theoplulus.

They may well ſake Ieſus Chriſt. For hee maye bee loſt and dead for them, crcept they learne to knowe and honoure him other wiſe then they doe: For he hath not taught us to celebrate the remembraunce of his death and paſſion after the example of that ſame of Adonis & Oſiris: But hath giuen unto us the manner & faſhion in the holy Supper ſuch as it appertaineth unto him and The true comme meration of the death of Ieſus Chriſt his Churche, the whiche we ought to follow, and we neede not to haue ſo manye ceremonies and Paniſh ſuperſtitions.

Hillarius.

For to make an ende in painting and ſetting Floralet. forth the Caſter, wée néede to adde no more but yt Florales, the which they celebrated in that ſame time in the moneth of Aprill, in the honoure of the Goddeſſe Flora, with torches and lightes, as at the feaſt of Candlemas it appeareth by that that ſhee hir ſelfe anſwered unto Ouid, whiche bringeth it in, ſpeaking ſo of hir feaſt: Faſt. 5.

Thoſe lights which ſerued to their vſe in times full long ago Vnto the very like vſe ſerue, our preſent time alſo,

And they celebrated the ſame feaſt, for to keepe the goods & fruits of the earth, as the Cereales, both of them in yt ſame moneth: notwithſtanding yt Durand placeth them in the Cereales. moneth of february, the better to agrée with the feaſt of Candlemas, Let us now lay together all thoſe péeces, and let us conſider howe the diuell mocketh God, the Uirgin Mary, and all the Chriſtian people: And how of the Uirgin Dishonour to ye Virgin Mary Mary, he is enforced not only to make one Idole but many, and hath induced and perſwaded yt Chriſtians, without yt they had any regarde, to make hir a Iuno, Februa, Venus, Ceres, Proſerpina, & Flora. For wee doe honor hir after the ſame ſorte, or rather yt diuel, under the tytle of hir whom he hath taken for to couer & bioe himſelfe, in ſtcede of thoſe whom I haue but now named. To what ende do theſe torches & holy candels ſerue, & al your proceſſions? Holy candells & proceſſions. Repreſentacion of ye light of the Goſpell. Eſi. 40. b. 6. Act 13 g. 47.

Euſebius.

Pen cary thē, for to repreſent by thē ye light of ye Gaſpell yt whiche Ieſus Chriſt hath carried & borne, which is yt true light of yt world, for to illuminate & lightē ye poore Gentles and Idolaters, and the glory of the people Iſrael, according to the prophecie of Eſay and of Simeon.

Theophilus.

But muſt wee preſent him with torchest Act. 13. g. 47. Luc. 2. c 32. Pſa. 19. c. 9 Torehes of the Chruſtans. Mat. 5 b. 14 candels? is not that rather the office of the Prieſts to light the Candle, lampe and torche of the word of God, (whiche is the light of our feete, lightning the blinde, giuing wiſe, doine unto the little ones and ignorant) thorow the preaching of the Gaſpell, and to ſette it uppon a candleſticke & Mat. 15. b. 14. Mat. 2 . b. 16 upon ye table, for to giue light unto all thoſe which are in yt houſe of God, not for to put it under the table and under a buſſhell, and to fill the peoples eyes and all the Churche of God, with ſmoke and darkenes, for to teſtifie and witnes that they are blinde leaders of the blinde.

Hillarius.

They ſhould haue more reaſon, if they wente a proceſſion in the night, as the Panims did. And it is not to be doubted, but that they caried thoſe torches & candels lighted, for to ſerue them for Purifications, & driue away the euills from the Cittie, and from their houſes, after the ſame manner as the Panims did. Te humiliter deprecartur vs has candelas ad vſus omnia & ſalutem animarum & corporum ſine in terra ſine in aquis, per inuecationemſancts fur nominis & per intereeſsionem ſancta Maria virginis genetricis fily tul (cuius bodie ſesla denels colimus) & per preces omnium ſanct, 〈◊◊〉 benedicere & ſanctificate dig ne •• . 1.

Theophilus.

If they would denie it, they woulde bee banquiſhed of the contrary as lyers, aſwell by the prayer and bleſſing, the which they bſe, for to bleſſe the tapers and torches, the day of the feaſt of Candlemas, as of that that they uſe the Satterday before Caſter or upon Caſter euen for to bleſſe the fire and the Paſcal taper. Parke then firſt of all that whiche they ſing the daye of the feaſte of Candlemas as it is contayned in the Piſſell, not that I will recyte word for word, all their bleſſing but onely the principall points for to proue our meaning, & by the which thou maiſt iudge of the reſt. They ſing unto God: we hubly beſech thee, that thorow the muecation of thy holy name and by the interceſſion of the holy uirgin Mary the mother of thy ſonne, whoſe feaſt this day we deuoutely celebrate, & by the prayers of al thy Saincts, that it would pleaſe thee to bleſſe and ſanctifie theſe candles, for the uſe of man, and the health of the ſoules and bodies, bee it in the earth or in the waters: Beholde their owne proper wordes rehearſed truely worde for worde, Where haue Candells for the health of the ſoules & bodyes Benedie Doms ne Ieſu Chriſte haue creaturam cere ſupplicanti bus nobis. &c. they founde, that the Candels do ſerue for the health of the ſoules and bodies, and that they haue any other uſe, theu for to giue light unto the corporall eyes, but in the bookes of the Panims. But by and afferwards they do ſay worſe. Parke then their wordes, O Lord Ieſus Chriſt we humbly beſeche thee, to bleſſe this creature of war, and ſhead ſoorth in the ſame thy heauenly bleſſing, by the vertue of the holy Croſſe, to the ende yt as thou haſt guien it unto makinde, for to put & driue away the darknes, it may recelue ſuch force and benediction, by the ſigne of thy holy Item: Benedico te creatura cera in nomine Domini noſtri & ſancte Trio nstntis, us ſis exterminatio diaboli & omnium conterbur nalium esus. Charmes The ad iurati of the holy water & ſalte Exerciſnius ſalis. Exorciſo te creatn ſalis per De um croſſe, in what place ſoeuer it ſhall be lighted, or ſet, that yt wicked diuell may flee and tremble, and auoyd altogether amaſed and made a fraide, with all his miniſters, from thoſe habitations: and that hée preſume no more to trouble thoſe which do ſerue God. And by and by after, there is yet more. Ido bleſſe thee thou creature of war, in the name of our Lorde God, and of the holy Trinitie, to the ende thou mayſt be the extermination and driuing away of the Diuell, and all his compliſes. What mockery is this? muſt the name of GOD bee ſo abuſed in Charmes and Witchecraftes? For wherein doe theſe benedictions and bleſſings dyffer from the charmes and coniuratyons of ſorcerers and witches, aſwell as the Exorciſme and adiuration of their holy water and Salte, whiche they put into it? What doeth that Exorciſine and adiuration ſigniſte? I exerciſe and adiure thee, thou Creature of Salte, by the liuing vinum per Deum GOD, by the true verum, per Deum GOD, by the holy ſanctum per Deum qui te per Eliſeum prophetam in aquam mitti iuſsit, vt ſanaresur ſteulitas aque vt effect ris ſale porcizatom. in ſalutem credentiam vt ſisommtleas te 〈…〉 . 〈…〉 . 〈…〉 lulian the Apoſtate The Temple of Fortune The ſp •• kings at the entrmg in & coming forth on the Temple GOD by the GOD which comnaunded that thou ſhouldeſt bee put into the water, by the Prophet Eliſeus for to heale the ſterilitie and barrennes of the waters, to the ende thou be made an adiured Salt, to the health of them that beleeue, to the ende that thou mayſt be unto all thoſe which will take thée, health of ſoule and bodye, and that all fantaſie, malyce, dſuhtyle crafte of the diuell maye auoyde, and depart, from the place where thou ſhalt bee ſheade abrcade, and all vncleane ſpirite adiured, by him which ſhall iudge the quicke and the dead, and the world with fire.

Hillarius.

Thou wilt make vs here by and by holye water. Sith that thou haſt made the Exorciſine, ſing nowe the Oremus.

Theophilus.

There are no leſſe blaſphemics in it: But ſith that thou wilt haue it thou ſhalt. O eternall God, altogether mightie, we humbly innocate and call vpon thy infinite clemency, that it would pleaſe thée to bleſſe † and ſanctifie † this creature of Salt, the which thou haſt giuē for the vſe of mankinde, to the ende that it may bée vnto all thoſe which will take it, helth of ſoule and body, and yt all that which ſhalbée touched with the ſame or ſprinkled, ſhould bee without any filth, and all the aſſault and cembat of the ſpirituall enemie.

Hillarius.

I haue heard many Prieſſes, who in ſtéed to ſay: Careatomni immundicia, doe ſay, Careat omni mundicia. But they do vſe the figure whiche the Gramarians do call, Aphereſis: or for to ſpeake better, the figure called the ignoraunce of the Gramer. I doe verelye thincke that all that whiche they ſprinckle abideth well according to the prayer that they make, wythout cleaneneſſe. Wherefore thoſe whom they doe ſprinckle, when they make their great Aſperges me, maye very well ſaye, as Valentinian ſayde who was the chiefe Captayne in the Courte of Iuhan the Apoſtate, but yet neuertheleſſe a good Chriſtian and afterwardes choſen Emperour.

Thomas.

What ſayd he?

Hillarius.

At a certeyne time as lulian entered into the Temple of Fortune, and that on both the ſides of the doores the miniſters and Prieſts of the Temple were, who (accordinge as they made men to vnderſtand) thorow yt ſprinckling of yt water did purge thoſe yt did enter in (after the ſame manner as cur prieſts doe yet at thys daye to thoſe whiche doe enter or goe foorth of the church) Valentinian, who did goe before lulian the Prince eſpyed a droppe of that water which had bene ſhed vppon his cloake, for which he was very angry, inſomuch that he gaue a Prieſt & Miniſter of the temple The ſprinklings at the entring in and comming forth of the temple. A Prieſt being ſtroken. A potheme of Diogenes. a great ſtroke wt his fiſt, ſaying: Thou haſt defiled mée & not purged mée. Hée had as much good reaſon, as Diogenes, who at a certeine time béeing entered into a filthy & ſtincking bath, ſayde: Thoſe which doe bathe and waſh themſelues héere, wher doe they waſh them? Letting therby to vnderſtand, that thoſe which bathe and waſh them in thoſe bathes, come foorth more filthy then they were before they entered, and that they haue more neede to bée waſhed then before, for they haue gathered nothinge but filthyneſſe. But this Apothegme and ſentence neuer agréed better then with our Prieſtes, whiche defile all thoſe which goe vnto them howe cleane ſoeuer they be. But thou halt yet adiured and coniured but the ſalt. Yet remaineth the water.

Theophilus.

They do blaſpheme yet moreouer. For Exorciſmus aqua. Exerciſo te creatura aqua in in nomine Dei patris ¶ omnipotentis, & in no mine Domini leſu † Chriſti •••• , eiuſdem domins noſtri & in virtute Spiritus † ſancti vt ſias aqua exoresſata ad effu gandam onme poleſtatem mimici, & ipſum inimicum eradicare & explantare valeas cum Angelis ſuis Apoſtaticis per virtutem &c. Hem. Huic elemento multimodis purificatio nibus prepara to, virtute tue bene † dictiones, infunde, vt ad abijcrendos demones morboſ pellendos diuine gratie ſumat officium, vt quic quid in damib vel in locis ſidelum hec vndareſperſit, careat omnium immū dits. , liberat a noxla: non illic reſideat ſpiritus peſtilens, nō aura corrūpens diſeedant omnesinſidie laten tis inimite &c. Item vt 〈…〉 , 〈…〉 . The coniuting of the vvater A plaiſter for all ſores. The vertue of Ieſus Chriſt Chaunged & reſerred to the creatures. The order and vſe of ceremomes chaunged. they pray that it may be adiured and coniured, for to driue away all the power of the enemie, and to teare and pluck vp the enemies themſelues, with all his apoſtate Angels, and for to drwe away the Diuels, and diſeaſes, and that all that which ſhall be ſprickneled with it, either in the houſes, or in the place of the faythfull, ſhoulde bée wythout ſpot or hurt, that the ſpirite of peſtilence doe not remaine and reſt there, nor the infectious windes nor aire: that al vncleane ſpirites, and the terrour of the venomous Serpent, and all the aſſaultes and ambuſſhes of the euemye, and all euill, bée altogether driuen away. To conclude, they require that it maye doe all thinges. And ſo by that meanes wée ſhall haue no more néede of Ieſus Chriſt. The Candles, the Ware, the Salt and the Water, wyll doe all.

Euſebius.

You ſpeake very euyll. For you maye well perceiue howe they yraye vnto God, that hée woulde giue vnto them that vertue, by his ſonne Ieſus Chriſt, whō they acknowledge to be the authour of all good things.

Theophilus.

If they acknowledge him for ſuch a one, what néede haue they then of War, Salt and Water, for to obtaine of him the goods which are neceſſary for our bodies and ſoules? Can he, or will hée not dooe that without thoſe thinges? wilt they binde and tye his grace, vertue and power, and incloſe & ſhut it in wax, ſalt and water, as they doe require by their prayers? If thoſe thinges be not charmes, ſorceries and enchauntmentes, I knowe not what we may call charmes, ſorceries & enchauntmentes.

Hillarius.

When they do coniure and bleſſe their welles and fontes & chriſtening places, they gape ouer the water and blowe in it, as though they had the holy Ghoſt within their throate, and that they would ſhut him in it. It is very néedefull, that that holy Ghoſt whome they doe plunge and ſhutte in that water can ſwim, or otherwiſe he ſhall bee in daunger of drowning.

Theophilus.

Euen as they doe with the water & war, ſo doe they with the fire and incenie, vppon Eaſter euen, when they bleſſe their Paſcall of wax.

Euſebius.

Sith that all that is done vnto the honour of God, can it be but good?

Theophilus.

Howe can it be to the honour of God, to attribute vnto the creatures, the honour which belōgeth vnto him? Or to ſhut vppe and lymit his grace, vertue and power by them? And to ouerthrowe and tourne vpſide downe altogether the order of God, and the vſe, for which hée hath created them, for hée hath not created the water, ſalt, fire & the ware for to purifie the ſoules: for to oriue away the Diuelles and for to be remedyes to all corporall and ſpirituall diſeaſes: But he hath created the water, for to drincke: for to waſh awaye the filthineſſe of the body, for to refreſh, ſprinckle and helpe the naturall neceſſities for which God hath ordayned them. As much muſt wée vnderſtande of the fire, ſalte and ware, and all other creatures, whiche cannot ſerue vs, but accordinge to their naturall properties, and according to the ordinaunce of God. Wherefore whoſoeuer altereth and chaungeth that order of nature, and vſe of the creatures, otherwiſe then he ought, attributinge vnto them any other propertie then that whiche God hath gyuen vnto them, hée blaſphemeth God, and is worthy to be taken for a Sorcerer and a Magitian. For wherein doth a The difference betvveene a good Philoſopher & a charmer & Magician. good Phiſitian and a Philoſopher differ from a Charmer and Magitian, but in this that thoſe doe followe the order of God in his creatures, and their naturall dyſpoſition, and thoſe héero doe peruerte and ouerthrowe it, and wyll by woords, charmes and coniurations, chaunge their nature and bring them to other effectes, then God hath appointed them.

Euſebius.

By thy reaſons thou doeſt alſo abolyſh the vſe of the Sacramentes.

Theophilus,

That is an other thinge, foraſmuche as it is ordeyned of GOD, The Sacraments who maye make hys creatures to ſerue to what it pleaſeth hym. For hée which is the Lord, may vſe them eyther after that order as hée hath appointed them of nature: or miraculouſly, aboue nature. Although, that who ſo would attribute vnto the water of Baptiſme, or vnto the breade and wine in the Lordes ſupper, that whiche you doe attribute vnto your waters, ſaltes, fires, inceuſe, and waxe, ſhoulde bée greatly to be rebuked. For all the vertue and efficacie of the Sacramentes doe depende of the promiſe of God, of which you haue nothinge in your ceremonies, invented and forged by your owne ſence and vnderſtanding, wythout the worde of God, no more then the Magicians and enchaunters haue in their witchinges and inuocations. Wherefore we cannot repute and take ſuch ſuperſtitions followinge the manner & forme as you doe holde, but for ſuch, as thoſe haue bene of whiche you haue taken the example.

Hillarius.

But how can it bée pleaſing and agréeable to God, to forſake and renounce Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne, and the Chriſtianitie, for to make themſelues Panims or Iewes? Tell me Euſebius, if thou doe not thincke that the Chaldeans and Perſians are worthy to be accompted and taken for Idolaters, to baue had The fire y god of the chalde s & Perſians the fire in ſo great admiration yt they haue worſhiped it as God?

Euſebius.

Who doubteth of that?

Hillarius.

Now what reaſon haue you for to excuſe your ſelfe of that ſame Idolatry, more lawfully then they?

Theophilus.

That Idolatry is the moſt auncient which hath bene almoſt amongeſt men, chiefely before that there was any vſe of Images: And I doubte not but that wée referre it, vnto the Idolatry of the fire, followinge alſo the opinion of Sainct Hierome and of Hier. & Nicol. in Geneſ. 12. d. 27. Tareh. Abraham. Cal. Rod lec. aut, li, 15. ca. 15 Lyra, that which Moſes calleth, Vr of the Chaldees.

For notwithſtanding that that name is taken for the place, wherein Tarch the Father of Abraham dwelled, yet neuertheleſſe it is very lyke that that place hath taken his name of that fire, which the Chaldeans worſhipped, as wée ſée dayly that many Townes and Villages dooe take their name of the Gods, Sainctes and Patrons whiche are there adored & honoured, as are S. Claudus, S. Hippolite, Sainct Denis, Sainct Iames, & others innumerable. For Vr, ſignifieth in the Hebrew and Chaldee tongue, fire and furnayſe. And vnto that agréeth well that which is ſpoken off in the booke of Ioſua, that Tareh the Father of Abraham was an Idolater, although Ioſua. 24. a. 2 there bee no mencion made that hée worſhypped Images and Idolls: But it was bicauſe he was defiled and infected with that Idolatry of the Chaldees, for the which Abraham departed from his countrey, in not worſhypping the fire in ſtéede of the true God.

Hillarius.

That Idolatry hath not bene onely among the Chaldees and Perſians: But it is alſo ſpredde abroade amonge other Nations, who of longe time haue in lyke manner worſhypped the fire vnder the name of Veſta, who was in greate honour and eſtimation amonge the Troyans before the warre of Troy, and from thence hath bene wyth the other Gods, caryed into Italy by Aeneas, and ſo came vppe the cuſtome to kéepe a continuall fire in his Temple at Rome within a Bore or Pyxe, as they doe nowe the holye Liui. lt. 1. & 5 Macro. Satur lt. t. c. t. 12 plu. in Num. ex Camd Ouid. Faſt. 1 &. 6. hoaſte. For that cauſe the Poetes manye times dooe call it, the Troyans fire, and the fire of Laomedon, the founder and buylder of Troy. The Greekes alſo dyd the lyke in Athens and Delphos. And Seruius witueſſeth that they kept it alſo in the Temple of Iupiter and of Minerua, by which they woulde vnderſtande the earthly heauen and the celeſtiall fire. And St abo Stral . li. 9 hath written almoſt the lyke, that is to ſay, that there was an olde Temple of Minerua Poliade in which was kept a Lampe continually burning, and there was a Couent of Nounes, I thincke that Pope Sabinianus dyd Plat. in vit. Sab nt Cal. aul. lec. li, 15. ca. 14. take example of the ſamo, when that he conſtituted and ordeined that Lampes ſhoulde be continually kept burninge in the Temples, as Platine and Volaterran dooe witneſſe.

Theophilus.

If they had the lyke that of which Sainct Auguſtine maketh mencion, which was inextinguible in a certeine Temple of Venus, whiche the Panims Auguſt. de cin Des. l . 21. c. 6 had, they woulde make of it a great myracle, and would eſteeme it for a goodly relike. For he ſayth, yt it contimeth alwaies burning in ye aire abroad, wcout euer being put out or quenched, eyther with the winde, water, or W any thing that one can do to it. Therfore it was called inextinguible.

Hillarius.

It muſt be, if that be true, yt it wae artyffcially made, or elſe by magycall Arte. But I thinke that they woulde make as greate an accompt if they had ſuch fire, as yt ſame which the Greeks kept in the Temple of Apollo in Arges, the which they dyd ſaye, ſell from keauen. I demaunde of thée friende Theophilus, what thinckeſt thou hathe bene the firſt cauſe of that Idolatry.

Theophilus.

I cannot perceyue that they haue any other cauſe, but the ſame whiche hath ingendered all the other Gods amonge the Panyms, which haue Phin. li, 1. ca. 1 delfied and called Gods, all the creatures of whome men dooe féele, ayde and helpe. Seeinge then the great poritie whiche is in the fire, and the greate vitlytie that men dyd receyue thereby, and howe neceſſarye it was Idolatry of the ſire & of the Planets. Lue. Flor, in Numa. Flat, de Pbilo. dogm. VA in Camillo. vnto mans lyfe, and howe it repreſented the fires and celeſtiall lyghfes, of the ſunne and of other planets and ſtarres (whome mey haue alſo olden for Gods, bycauſe of their greate beautie and vtilytie) they dyd in lyke manner thincke that they had iuſt occaſion to holde and take the fire for a God, whiche they dyd ſée to bée of one ſelfe nature wyth the celeſtiall fire, whiche alwayes moueth and gyueth lyfe vnto all thinges as the ſoule of them. They had yet certeine other occaſions, in that that the holye Scripture oftentimes compareth God to the fire, and calleth hym, a conſuminge fire: and that God appeareth ſometime: in the lykeneſſe God compared to the fire. Deut. 4. d. 24. Hebr. 12. g. 19. Exo. 3. a. 2. Act. 7. d. 31. 3. Reg. 18. f. 33 of fire, and that the fire came downe from heauen oftentymes, for to conſume the ſacryfices of the holye Patriarches and Prophetes. They had more iuſt occaſion to confirme themſelues in that opinion, and more goodlyer appearaunce for to allow their religion, then the Papiſtes haue for their Images and Idolls. For wée cannot denye, but that the fire is a lyuelye Image of God, which ſheweth foorth and reproſenteth vnto vs it ſelfe more lyuely, then all the Idolls which euer were in the worlde. And therefore God woulde appeare in the Rxo. 3. 2. 2. Act. 7. d. 31. lykeneſſe of fire, and repreſent hys gyftes and graces, his vertue and power by the ſame: the which he woulde neuer dooe by Idolls and Images, and woulde neuer appeare in them, nor ſpeake, nor doe any vertue or myracles by them, but hath lefte the ſame for the Dyuell, Images the inſtruments of the Diuel who is ſerued wyth ſuch inſtrumentes, the whiche God hath altogether reiected and curſed, and hathe defamed them by defamed tytles, calling them filthyneſſe, vanytie, The titles of ye Images. lying, nothing, abhomination and other like names, which oftentimes are rehearſed in the bookes of the Prophets. Furthermore had not the Chaldeans and Perſians good occaſion to preferre it aboue all the other. For ſith that all the other were either of wood and of ſlone, or of golde, ſilver or other mettalles, he did melte, burne and conſume The povver of the fire about the others gods. all, inſomuch that there was not one, whiche coulde reſiſt him.

Hillarius.

Xerxes hing of Perſia declared it very well Xetxes. vnto the Greekes, when hée came into Greece wyth ſo The temples burned In Aſia great an army. For hée burned all the Temples, Idolles and Images of Aſia, except the ſame of Diana the Goddeſſe Solin. ca. 53. Temple of Diana the Epheſtā Act. 19. e. 24 Strab. •• . 14, Ph. li. 16. c. 41. &. •• . 36. ca. 34 of the Epheſians, bicauſe of the excellent beautie of the ſame, and for the cunning buylding which was therein, that it was compted among the ſeauen moſte chiefeſt workes which was in the worlde, which for their admirable and exceſſiue beautie, building and cunning, were called the ſeauen miracles of the worlde.

Thomas.

Wherefore did Xerxes the ſame?

Hillarius.

Bicauſe that the Perſians had no Temples, The Perſians without Temple and Images. nor Images, and dyd thincke that one dyd greate iniurye vnto the maieſtie of God, which is infinite, to chutte and limite him by the worke made with mans hande, In lyke manner Plutarch doth write, that the Romaines haue bad their Temples wythout Images (after that the citie In Num . Dionyſ. Halicar. in Numa. was builded) 170. yeares, bicauſe that they were taught by the king Numa, that God was an inuiſible ſpirite, which neuer was created. And notwithſtanding that they doe honour the fire vnder the name of the Goddeſſe Veſta, yet neuertheleſſe they neuer made Image for to repreſent the one nor the other, but were content to kéepe that holy fire, as hath bene ſayde, and as it appeareth by the witneſſe of Ouid, ſaying.

Within the Temple fire remaind, Ould. Fast. and ſtill vnquencht did lye, The fire and Veſta wanted forme, to ſhew their ſhapes thereby. And a little afterwards he ſayth. By Arte of Syracuſia framd, there hangeth in the aire, A little globe that repreſents, the forme of heauens faire.
Thomas.

If the Perſians did take the for God, they did not altogether without reaſon, if they would not haue locked & ſhut him vp. For he doth open the gates, although yt one would ſhut him vp & knoweth to go out euery way.

Hillarius.

The experience hath bene well ſhewed in the Temple of Diana the Epheſian. For notwythſtandinge that Xerxes ſpared it, yet neuertheleſſe his GOD The temple of Diana burned Gehlia. Heroſtrotus Soli. ca. 53 woulde not ſpare it, thorowe whoſe ayde Heroſtratus dyd bringe it to paſſe, who dyd ſet it on fire, and bourned it altogether.

Thomas.

Wherefore dyd hée that?

Hillarius.

Hée hath confeſſed hymſelfe, that hée dyd it for couetouſneſſe of renowne, to that ende that men Couetous of renovvne ſhould ſpeake of hym. For hée neuer dyd any vertuous acte whereby hée myght gette a name. And therefore hée tooke vppon him to doe ſuch an acte, to the ende that the remembraunce of his name ſhoulde bée eternall amougeſt men.

Theophilus.

Heroſtratus dyd let the Epheſians well to vnderſtande, that the fire had more vertue then their Diana.

Hillarius.

Thou vnderſtandeſt not the cauſe, and howe the Panims dyd excuſe the Goddeſſe. Thou oughteſt to vnderſtande, that the verye ſame night that The natiuitle cf Alexander Olympiss. Heroſtratus dyd ſette the Temple of Diana on fire, Olympias the mother of greate Alexander, was in hauayle wyth child, & bicauſe that Diana was gone thether for to helpe hir trauaile to bringe foorth Alexander, ſhée coulde not defende hir Temple. For thou doeſt very well know that woemen dyd call vppon hir in their trauayle. And therefore ſhée béeinge abſent, and buſied aboute Olympias and hir ſonne Alexander, ſhée coulde not helpe hir Temple nor reſiſt the God of the Perſians, no more then the Gods of our Prieſtes can at this daye reſiſt it. For that cauſe the Chaldeans dyd meruaylouſly beaſt themſelues againſt all other Patyons, ſayinge, that there were none that had ſuche a God as theirs, which conſumeth all other. Yet neuertheleſſs if the tale or hiſtorye bée true whiche Suidas Suiadas in dict Canop. God Canopus. dyd tell of a Prieſte of Canopus, hée played or ſhewed them a fine feate, of whome hée hath written that the Prieſt of god Canopus which was adored and worſhipped of ſome in Aegypt, ſeeing the arrogancie and pride of the Chaldeans, fearing alſo to looſe his good théere and fare, The crafte and diſceite of the Prieſt of Canopus. Cal. Rho. lec. aut. li. 15. c. 15. if the maieſty of his God were diminiſhed, deuiſed this crafte and diſcepte. In Aegypt they vſed to make waterpottes of earth, hauing many holes for to diſtill the water and to make it more pure, bicauſe that the waters of Aegypt are much troubled and full of mudde and ſlime that Prieſt did take one of thoſe water pottes, and ſtopped ſubtilly with ware all the holes thereof, afterwardes painted it with diuerſe coloures, ſo that one could not perceiue it. That béeing done, filled it with water, afterwards did cut of the head of an olde Image, the which hée ſet vpō that great water pol, ſo cunningly that it was like to his god Canopus. After that, the Chaldeans came, who would proue the power of yt fire of their God, againſt the God Canopus. The fire thē béeing kindled, and Canopus béeing caſt into it, after that manner and ſorte as he was trimmed and apparayled by his Prieſt. Nowe whileſt that on either ſides men did behold which of thoſe two Gods ſhould haue the victory, the wax with whiche the holes were ſtopped, féeling the heat of the fire, did beginne to melt, & the water to droppe out, which quēched the fire. And ſo by that meanes Canopus got the victory thorow the craft of the Prieſt, and was iudged worthy of The victory of Canopus diuine honours.

Thomas.

Behold a mery Ieſt to laught at, at Caſter.

Hillarius.

You laughe at it, but the holy fathers do ſay things which are not ſo good as that, and your preiſts do make miracles. which are not yet ſo ſubtile, by the which yet neuertheles the poore people are abuſed. But let vs conſider a little wherein the Papiſts differ from the one The fire & •• ter 〈◊〉 gods of y Papiſts 〈◊〉 on of the paſeall tire. Rat d. ui. off. li 6. Rab de benecer. and the other of whiche we haue ſpoken off, if they haue not the fyre and the water for their gods. For what doth ſignifie the benediction and conſecration of the Are which they make vpon Caſter euen, with their magical ceremonies? For at the beginning of diuine ſeruice, all the ſice which is in the Temple muſt be put out. Afterwardes they muſt a newe, by ſtriking vppon a ſtone wyth a péece of ſtéele, or with a Chriſtall ſet againſt the ſunne: Afterwards they muſt kéepe it, not with al kinds of wood, but with the branches of the Vine. There is here more to doe then in the charmes of the Enchaunters. And to what ende do all thoſe ſorceries ſerue?

Euſebius.

Now dareſt thou ſo to blaſpheme and call the diuine ſeruice Sorcery? which was done to repreſent, The interpretatiō of ye Benediction of ye nevv nee that the fire of the olde law is put out, by the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſte, who hath accompliſhed and fulfilled all the ceremonies of the ſame, and he is the ſlone & the Chriſtall whiche hath bene ſtroken vppon the ſide, and hath kindled for vs a new fyre of the holy Ghoſt.

Hillarius.

Mée thinkes that the interpretation ſhould be two true, if you ſaid that the ſame ſignifieth, that the Prieſts go about all that they can to quench the fire of the worde of God, which Ieſus Chriſt the light of the world, hath brought in the earth, for to take in hand a newe, and Luc. 12. g. 49. Iohn. 1. a 9 & 8. b. 9. a. 5. ler. 5. d. 14. & 23. ſ. 29 for to make vs, in ſteede of the Purgatorie, which is by yt bloude of Ieſus Chriſt, a newe Ieſus Chriſte, and a newe Purgatory in fire, to the ende that all at one moment or inſtant do declare themſelues both Iewes and Panims.

Theophilus.

It is moſte true, that God commaunded The ſignification of the perpetuall fire of the burnt offring Leuit. 6. b. 13. the Prieſts of the olde law, that the fire of the bournt offring or holocauſte ſhould be alwayes kept burning in the Temple. But that was to ſignifie, that the fire of Ieſus Chriſt, and his offring and ſacrifice is eternall, and ſufficient for to purge all the ſinnes of the world and that Heb. 9. c. 11. & 10. e. 11. 1. Pet. 4. c. 13 we ought all to bee pertakers of his croſſe & tribulations which are ſignified by the fire in the Scripture: and wée ought all to trauaile as much as lieth in vs, to kéepe and mainteine that fire of Ieſus Chriſt: the euangelicall myniſtry and the faith in his death and paſſion in the Chriſtian Church. For aſmuch then as Ieſus Chriſt hath perfectly and wholy accomplſhed and fulfilled that whiche by that fyre was ſignified, & ye it muſt be accompilſhed in vs ſpiritually, not in outward appearance, what néed haue wee to inuent new ceremonies and new Iewiſhnes: were it not as good to kéepe them to the olde, ſith that they will play the Iewe with the Iewes?

Hillarius.

But which is worſe, ſo play the Panim with the Panims, of whom their manner of doings approcheth neerer then of the auncient Iewiſh lawes. For as Plutarke witneſſeth, in Athens & Delphos, where ye Greekes Plutus in Num. in like manner do kéepe a perpetuall fyre, if peraduenture it were put or went out, they muſt kindle a new and very orange, taken from the Sunne. In like manner alſo hath Macrob. Satur. li. . ca. 12 The new fire of the Panims Val. Max. li. 1. cap. 1. The fire of Veſta. Plut. in Camillo. ouid. Faſt. 6. Macrobius written, that the firſt day of Marche, the Romaines kindled a new fire vpon the aulter of the Goddeſſe Veſta, the which fire muſte bee kept by the Meſtales, the nunues of Veſta alwayes burning in hir Temple, like vnto ours at this day. Wherevnto agréeth in like manner the witnes of Ouid, ſaying.

Men ſay that when the holy fire in temple ceaſt to burne. It was the vſe from time to time with new to ſerue the turne.

And if it happen that thorow their negligence it be put out, they ſhalbe greuoſly puniſhed.

Theophilus.

One may vanquyſh them by their owne confeſſion, that they haue not receiued thoſe traditiō of yt Apoſtles. For they thēſelues confeſſe, that the cuſtome to bleſſe the Paſcall taper and ſuch manner of doings, haue The Paſchall Taper Rat. diui off. li. 6. Rab. de den. cer Zozmie and Theodorus The moſt puiſſaunt god of the Prieſtes bene inſtituted by Pope Zozme and Theodorus the firſt.

Hillarius.

We muſt not be abaſhed though they make great prouiſion both of Oyle & War for to kéepe alwayes yt fire in their churches. For they haue no greater nor puiſſanter God then he, of whom onely they demaimd aide, inuocate and call vpon for to mainteine their Religion, & all their other Gods. For what other refuge haue they for to fight againſt the truth and to deſende lyings, but the Fagots and Fyre? Wherefore mee thinkes that they ſhoulde haue more reaſon, if they followed the example of the Perſians, who notwithſtanding that they condempned thoſe which had temples and Idols, yet The holy and •• ered fire of the Perſias. rs. Mark. t. cal. R ls. lec. 〈◊〉 . 8 aa. 2. neuertheleſſe they had a cuſtome, that the kings ſheulde cauſe the ſyre to bee caried before them uppon an Norſe backe, the whiche is called by the Niſtoriographers OriMaſda, that is to ſaye, the holy fire? or the ſacred ſyre.

They alſo caried it in proceſſion all abouts, in the ſame manner as the Papiſts did cary the holy hoaſten Chriſts day, and as the Pope cauſeth his God to be caried before him uppon a white ambling nagge, to the ende hee maye The holy ho •• The pracction of the ſerſt. God and the ho y fir e. gee the more at his eaſe: altheugh that hée eſticme him ſelfe more worthy, ſith that he cauſeth himſelfe to bee carted of men, and his God of beaſtes. The pecple alſo bſed to adore and worſhippe that holy fire, as they doe at this day the holy hoaſt. And whe they do cary it in proceſſion. 365. Prieſts did go before him, to the ende there bee as many in number, as there be dayes in the yeare, doing the ſauie in the honour of the ſonne, who by his fyre giueth the light of the day in the earth. Therefore alſo they caried it with them in the warre. And when they muſte remoue the hoaſt, there was uppon the kings Tabernacle, a little Image of the ſunne, encloſed within a rounde hor of Chriſtall, whiche ſhined and gane a great light. When the proceſſion of the holy and eternall fyre began to march and go foorth, they caried if before all, uppon the Aulters of ſilurr the whithe the wiſeſt and holyeſt men whom they called pagitians, did follow. After them. 365. young men, beeing clothed in Purple and red, for to repreſent the colour of the fyre. I beleeue that after their erample, the Pope and the Cardinals are pet clothed in red, in witnes, that either they are men of bloud, beeing all bloudie with the bloude of the righſeous and poore innocents: or els that they are as a conſuming fyre in this world, which conſumeth all, for to make the poore faithfull feare, which will not conſent unto their blaſphemies and tyranny: or in ſigne and token that they are the Cookes & fyre bronds of hell, for do toſt and broyle the roore ſules, & that they haue the tharge of thoſe iuſernall firrs and of Purgatorie. There was in like manner in that proceſſiou, charets, hearſes and ſhrines, all tryumed and engraued in golde and ſiluer, for to carye and beare the other gods and their Images, the which they haue afterwards learned to make, as the other Panims by ſucceſſion of time did. There were alſo, which caried goodly rods and ſtaues of golde, as are the croſſes of our Abbots and Byſhoppes: and the ſtaues which they do cary in proceſſion, with the Croſſe. And thoſe were alſo clothed with white, as our Prieſts are. Wherefore ſith that our Prieſts do follow them almoſt in all things, mee thinketh that they ſhoulde haue more ſhew of appearance to kéepe the holye fire in the pyr or bor, and to worſhippe it and cauſe it to bée worſhiped, as theyr God yt they haue made of ſtower. For this without the other, can haue no great vertue, ſith that the fore muſt defende them. Wherefore they do euidently declare, that they eſtéeme it more puiſſant and more ſtrong, ſith that they haue recourſe vnto it. Wherefore one may wel aunſwere vnto them, that which of old time hath bene aunſwered by a certeine man, of the pron and of the golde, who was demaunded whiche of them both was the ſtrongeſt.

Thomas.

Pée thinketh that it is the golde, for it doth The ſtrength of the gold and of Yren. all things.

Hillarius.

But what can the golde do without yt yron? hath it not néede of the yron for to kéepe & defende it? For who is moſte ſtrongeſt, eyther hee whiche keepeth, or hée which muſt bee kept.

Thomas.

There is in th at a Sophiſtrie.

Hillarius.

There is no neede to alledge ſophiſtrie. For the thing is ſuche in beritie. There is nething but the fooliſh opinion & perſwaſion of men, which maketh them to iudge otherwiſe. For as Sainct Auguſtine ſaith, what Auguſtin, are all the mettals but earth? what difference is there then betweene the yron and the golde, but that the one is The golde pale a blacker earth, and the other more yollow & pale? wherein he declareth that he is more fearefull then the vson.

Thomas.

It is not without cauſe that he is plae, for hee hath manye enemies whiche doe lye in wayte to take him.

Hillarius,

And therefore what ſhall hee doe, if hée hadue not the yron for to defende him? For the yron, defendeth him, and the yron taketh him, and whiche is more, of which ſhould one ſet beſt by, either of the yrou or of the golde? Can we aſwel labour and til the lande with the golde as with the yron, and make that whiche wée make of the yron?

Thomas.

It is moſte true we cannot. But yet neuerthe ignorance and fooliſh opinton of men, which eſtéeme it to be ſo, bicauſe that the coulour ſéemeth vnto them more fairer and that it is not ſo plenty as yron? But take away the opinion, and it ſhall be but earth as the yron. Aſmuch may we ſay of the God of the Prieſtes, and of the fire. For I aſſure thee that if the ſyre dyd not make them to feare him, that it ſhould neuer haue come vnto ſuch honour as it is come vnto, and it ſhoulde bee impoſſible to keepe it in ſuch digmtie. Furthermore, if the ſyre of Purgatory were not of ſome balue, it ſhoulde not be ſo deere Perchandiſe, nor ſo precious. But what is the cauſe that men haue it in ſuch reuerence, and do forſake the liuinge God, and the Sauiour Ieſus Chriſt, for to worſhippe the worltes of their handes, but the falſe opinion wherewith their underſtanding is corrupted & marred? For beſtoes the worde of God, all the reſidue is but opiluons and lyings.

Theophilus.

They ſhould haue no leſſe occaſion to worſhippe the fyre, then the bread, and to make it a God. For if yt fyre can purge & ſanctify yt body & ſoule, it is God The fise made a God. Rom. 4. 2. 5 Eſt. 43. b. 11 If it purge and ſanctify, it iuſtifieth & ſaueth. If it inſtiffe & ſaue, it is then God. For ther is none other iuſtifter & ſamour but him onelye. And it is no harder for him to purge & ſaue man, then to create & make him. The worke of yt redēption is no harder, then yt of the creation. Wherefore if ye one apperteineth unto God alone, ſo doth yt other.

Hillarius.

There is yet another point, ye is, that the fire is ye principall creator of the Prieſts God. For without it they cannot ſeeth nor heate any thing. It hath power to make & unmake, as it hath bene well ſhewed foorth in the A true luſtory of the Prieſtes god burned. yere of our Lord. 1542. in a litle billage which is iii, miles from Caſtres in Languidoc, where ye poore whyte god was burned, upon holy Thurſoay, atnight, with all his Tabernacle, his houſe and al the Tepiſtry woork and hangings.

Thomas.

Now happened that great miſfortune?

Hillarius.

Nou muſt underſtand, ye that night before the day of holy friday, they had a cuſtome that all ye families & houſeholders went to biſit ye poore god, which was there deteyned & kept priſoner, with a great number of Tapers, torches & lampes which they caryed •• great deuotiō, ſaying: let bs go ſee our God, which is at reſt.

Thomas.

To what purpoſe did they ye?

Hillarius,

Think ye it was to cō fort him, bicauſe ye upon thoſe dayes there he was ſomuch tormented among the Iewes.

Thomas.

Are there Iewes in ye country?

Hillarius.

Why, is there a country where ther is none?

Thomas.

Not many among yt Chriſtians.

Hillarius.

Pore then in any other place, although there were none but the pricſts which alwaies & dayly, thorow their blaſphemies, do crucifie Ieſus Chriſt: towards who they ſhew themſelues a great deale worſe then ye Iewes. For they haue crucifted him but once, but thoſe, here doe crucifie him euery day.

Thomas.

Ketourne to thy matter, & expound unto vs how the fire there kindled.

Hillarius.

Nou muſt underſtand, ye in diſiting himm in ſuch fort, they brought yt fire ſo neere, ye it kindled & burned all. Tevves among the chriſtiaus Now whé they had found ye nert day the goodly ſtur ye they had made, god knoweth what pitious, lamctatiōs, wepings & cryings ther was. Tamus, Oſitis & Adonis wer neuer ſo bewayled & lameted. They did ſing other lamétatiōs, then thoſe of Ieremy, ſaying: O how wicked are we, al ye world wil redeoche & check us, that we are worſe then ye Iewes. For he was crucified among them, but he hath bene burned amongeſt vs. We muſt not bee abaſhed, though they burne the Lutherians, ſith that they burne their God. Yet neuertheleſſe that ought not ſo ſe me vnto them ſtrange. For they haue vſed it of long time, and haue ſet and put a Canon among the Cautels of their Maſſe, which commaundeth, that when the hoaſt ſhalbe rotten or mouldie in the pyr, or that the wormes, Spiders and Myce haue touched and eaten it, that it ſhould be burned, and that the aſſhes ſhould be ut in y reliquare or holy place. The which thing was once obiected and propounded vnto a Prieſt, amongſt a great company of people, in a houſe at Geneua. But he was not aſraid to abſolue the queſtion, nor he was not ſo much offended in burning their God, as thoſe here. For he aunſwered directly, if he ſuffred himſelf to be crucified of the Iewes, cannot he ſuffer himſelfe to be burned of vs?

Thomas.

The reſolution was clarke like, & like a good Theologian. But what was done in the end with theſe which burned it and ſuffred it to be burned.

Hillarius.

There was great debate betweene y Prieſts and the procurors of the Temple. For the Prieſt did lay the fault vpon the procurors. The procurors on the contrary, confeſſed that they had the charge of the Temple, but not of the body of God, which would not ſuffer him to be touched and handled but of the Prieſts. And ſaid, that although they had bene preſent, yet they durſt not take Exconci. Aurel An other hiſtory. The fire kindeled in the temp e of Veſta Metellus. Dyont. in Numa. Ouid. Faſt. 6 Palla lium. The hand kercheife of Chamber. him from the fire. Yet neuertheleſſe I thinke that if they had ſéene that goodly ſturre they ſhould haue béene entorced to haue taken him out, and would haue hadde ſome compaſſion of him. They woulde haue done as Cecilius Metellus, who ſeeing the fire kindled in the Temple of Veſta, wherein was the Palladium in great daunger to be burned, did caſt himſelfe in the middeſt of the ſlaming fire for to ſaue it, or other wiſe it had bene burned, as the holy hand-kerchiefe of Chambery. Metellus made it agreat conſcience to touch it with his hand, bicauſe that it was not permitted to men to enter into that holy Reliquare, nor to approch or come néere that holy Palladium, but for the holye Virgins Veſtals, the Nonnes of Veſta. But when he perceiued that they coulde doe nothing but wéepe, without helpinge any thinge at all, hée aduentured himſelfe, for to deliuer it from the fire, the whiche dyd ſo burne his eyes, that he dyd loſe his ſight. Pli. li. 7. c. 43

Thomas

What was that Palladium?

Hillarius.

An Image of the Goddeſſe Pallas, the which the Panims beléeued to be fallen Ouid. Faſt. 3 from heauen, as Numa made them beléeue of his Ancyles and of other ſeducers of the Diana of the Epheſians. It was brought from Troy, and the Romaines had Ancyla, Luil. li. 1. Diana of the Epheſians. Act. 19. c. 24. ſuch an opinion, that all the good hap and euil hap of their Empire depended vpon the ſame, & that it ſhould alwayes flouriſh & proſper all the while that they had that Image at Rome and that they dyd kéepe it well. Therefore they kept it ſo diligentlye, and all the counſell was amazed, when they ſawe the fire wythin hir Temple.

Theophilus.

The Prieſtes haue no leſſe feare of their God, of whome alſo dependeth all their dignitie and maieſty of their Empire.

Hillarius.

It is very true, but they haue a remedye which the Romaines had not. For if their Palladium had bene once burned, they could not haue an other, as thoſe of Chambery haue done of their handkercheefe: And Iupiter would not ſend them a new from heauen. But the Prieſts doe make as many Gods as they lyſt, and make them to come downe from heauen when it pleaſeth them. But for to retourne to our matter, after that that poore God was burned, there was two great diſputations. The firſt was, howe one myght diſcerne the aſſhes of the hoaſte, from thoſe of hys Tabernacle. Some held Diſputacions of the aſshes of the hoſte an opinion, that one could not doe it, others to the contrarye, affirmed that the ſame was verye eaſye, ſayinge that God dyd that honour vnto hys bodye, that the aſſhes of that ſhoulde bée whyter, more ſofter and ſmoother. Nowe when they had gathered together the ſmootheſt and ſofteſt. There was yet an other diſputation more barder, to wytte, in what place they ſhoulde put thoſe holy aſſhes. For dyſcuſſing of that matter, they muſt holde a counſayle of the wyſeſt and moſte prudent men, in the Citte of Caſtres, in the houſe of Monſer of Thaurines, to the which was called maſter Iohn de Boſco a Iacopin, a Doctour in diuinitie, borne in Anaxerra, who then preached that Lent at Caſtres. There came alſo the Conuent of the Iacopins, and olde reuerent father a teacher in diuinitie, bringing wyth hym a booke, which they called the third part of Sainct

Thomas.

The opinyon of the greateſt part was, that thoſe holy aſſhes ſhould be put in the Reliquary.

Theophilus.

It was a newe practyſe to bring money vnto the Prieſtes. For on the one ſide their God had drawen hys parte and hys aſſhes from the other aſſhes.

Hillarius.

That was ſufficient to heale their purſes of Apoſtumes, and to make them haue the flire in their bellyes. But de Boſco counſayled them, that they ſhould not put that Reliquary in anye hye place, for to auoide the daunger of committinge Idolatrye whiche myght come thereby. For hée declared vnto them accordynge to their owne doctrine, that the bodye of Chriſt was not burned, but the Accidents, and that thoſe aſſhes were not of the bodye, but of the accidentes. Wherefore wée muſt not worſhyppe them, ſith that the bodye is flowen an other waye. Ercept they wyll yet kéepe him pryſoner wythin the duſt and aſſhes. The which thing ſhould ſéeme verye ſtraunge, and full of blaſphemyes, yea, after the doctrine of the Schoolemen. And therefore hée counſayled them for a clére reſolution, that they The accidens burned ſhould bury thoſe aſſhes behinde the hygh aulter, in ſome darke corner, and that they ſhoulde take héede they put not any title vpon it, nor Epitaph, as men doe vpon other ſepulchres. For it ſhoulde ſéeme very ſtraunge to write: heere lyeth the Lord Ieſus, or the aſſhes of the body of god. For there is none ſo ignoraunt amonge the Chriſtyans but knoweth that Ieſus Chriſt hath not bene burned, and that he lyeth no more in the ſepulchre: But that hée is rayſed and aſcended into heauen, where hée is on the ryght hande of God hys Father, from thence hée ſhall come to iudge both the quicke and the deade. Wherefore one may ſay unto them, as the Angell ſayde vnto the women: hée is riſen, hée is not heare.

Theophilus.

I beléeue that that God of the Prieſtes defendeth hymſelfe as well from the fire, as hée defendeth himſelfe from the myce, wormes & ſpiders, when they Accidens vvith Out ſubſtaiuice doe eate him, and that euen as they lyue of the accidents wythout the ſubſtaunce, ſo hath the fyre burned the accidents wythout the ſubſtaunce. And accordinge to the Philoſophy of the ſcholaſticall Diuines, agaynſt the ſen ence of Ariſtotle, and of all the olde Philoſophers, one may eaſely finde accidents, qualities and quantities, without ſubſtaunce, wythout body, and ſubiecte. Yet neuertheleſſe if they dyd well conſider the vertue of the fyre, they ſhould be contrained to allowe mine opynion. And I woulde to God that they woulde worſhyppe the fire, The trne fire. Mat. 3. c. li. Act. 2. 3. . which hath the onely vertue to purge ſinnes, to wytte, the ſame with which Ieſus Chriſt baptiſed, which is the holy Ghoſt.

Hillarius.

I doe alſo deſire that they would worſhip that water of lyfe, the which Ieſus Chriſt hath promyſed, which is the ſame holy Ghoſt. But they had rather make the materiall water a God, of which wée may lawfully ſay, as wée haue ſayde of the fire. For if they do make a God of the fire, they muſte in lyke manner make a Goddeſſe of the water, to the ende they maye haue Gods and Goddeſſes, & a Vulcan, a Veſta, Thetis or Amphittite, The gods of the fire and vvater. Leucothea or Naiades, & Nymphes, goddeſſes of the waters, as wel as the Panims had, for many times they attribute vnto it as much vertue as to the fire, & ſometimes more. For if their water do quench & put out y fire of purgatory, it hath as much vertue & more, thē God Canopus, furthermore, what dyfference is there betwéene theire Aquaticall Theologye, and the ſame of the Ibolatrous Greekes, the which the Romaines haue learned of them, The Aquaticall theology euen as the Papiſtes of the auncient Romaines? As wée maye iudge by that whiche Ouid hath wrytten, ſaying:

Our olde men thought and did beleeue, Faſt. 2. and in that hope did dwell, That ſinne by purging loſed was, Purgations. and ſo let not to tell. Greece was the firſt this order gaue, and therewith did ſuppoſe: Offenders to be rid from ſinne, and ſo let not to gloſe.
Theophilus.

That doctrine ſhoulde hée good if it referred it ſelfe to the purgation of our ſinnes, made or done by Ieſus Chriſt and that it extended vnto his bloud: But their thought is altogether otherwiſe.

Hillarius.

They vnderſtande that of their purgations, of whiche we haue ſpoken off, and chiefly of the water. Of which ſuperſtition, the Panims themſelues doe mocke and haue well had the iudgement, to know that the ſame was but vanitie, as wee haue already declared by the Apothegine of Diogenes. And the verſes of Perſius a boue alledged pretend to the ſame, as well as thoſe héere of Ouid, which I will now rehearſe.

Ah, too light credite doe they giue, Faſt. 2. which doe ſuppoſe and thincke, That that ſame fault of murther ſhould, by water be extinct.
Euſebius.

Wée are of an opinion altogether differinge from the ſame. For wée dooe not beleeue, that thorow the ſprinckling of the holy water, the mortall Veniall ſinnes put avvay by vvater. Mortall ſinnes. Mat 12. c. 32 1. Iohn. 5. c. 13. ſinnes are put away, but onely the veniall ſinnes.

Theophilus.

They are not then defaced and taken away by the ſame. For the ſinnes are not mortall, but vnto thoſe whiche ſinne vnto death, and agaynſte the holy Ghoſt, and which perſeuer in their ſinnes, withour dooing repentaunce, and running vnto the mercye of God. But vnto Gods elect all ſinnes are veniall: not by their nature, but by the grace of Ieſus Chriſt. For there is no ſinne be it neuer ſo little, which of his nature is not mortall, and worthy of eternall death, if Ieſus Chriſte make them not veniall, and capable of pardon, to thoſe Veniall ſinnes. Rom. 8. a. 1. which beléeue in hym, to whome there is no more condempnation. Wherefore I am abāſhed of your Doctors, which take ſo much paines to purge the veniall ſinnes. And amongeſt others the ſprincklyng of the holy water: 4. Sent. diſt. Tho. par. 4. q. 7. ar. 2. & in Ma 6. and that they doe allowe ſo muche the exorciſmes and coniurations, namely of Thomas of Aquin, whiche yet neuertheleſſe doe nothing dyffer from charmes and ſorceryes. But I am yet more abaſhed, of that Canon, ſo Pope Alexan. 5. de conſec. diſt 3. cap. aquam. full of blaſphemye which is taken of Pope Alexander the fift, whome you accompte to bée the firſte finder out and inuentour of holy water, who ſayth after thys manner. Wée doe bleſſe the water ſprinckled or myngled wyth ſalt amonge the people, to this ende that all béeing ſprinckled therewyth, ſhoulde bée ſanctified and puryfied: the which thinge wée commaunde all Prieſtes to doe ſo. For it the aſſhes of a younge Heyfer béeinge ſprinckeled vppon the people doe ſanctifie and make them cleane, by a ſtronger reaſon the water béeinge mingled wyth ſalte and hallowed wyth diuine praiers doth ſanctifie and make them cleane? And if the ſalte béeinge A compariſon betvveene theaſshet of a Heyfer & the roater 4. Reg. 2. d. 21 caſt in the water by the Prophet Eliſeus, hath healed and hoplen the barrenneſſe thereoff, howe much more the water béeinge hallowed wyth diuine prayers, doth take awaye the ſterrilitie of hamayne thynges, and ſanctyfieth and purgeth the filthineſſe, and multiplyeth and encreaſeth the other goodes, and putteth awaye the aſſaultes of the Diuell, and defendeth men from fantaſies. O Lorde God, what greater blaſphemye can one heare, is not that to tourne all the worde of God vpſyde downe, and to ouerthrowe all the vertue of the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt? That which the holy Apoſtle attributeth vnto the death and bloud of Ieſus Chriſte is it not héere altogether moſt euidentlye giuen vnto the ſalte The bloude of Ieſus.: Heb. 9. d. 13 Leuit. 16. c. 14 and water? For in ſtéede that the Apoſtle ſayth. If the bloude of Dren and of Goats and the aſſhes of an Heyfer, when it was ſprinckeled, puryfied the vncleane, as touching the purifying of the fleſh: Nowe much more ſhall the bloud of Chriſte (whiche thorowe the eternall ſpyrite, offered himſelfe wythout ſpotte to GOD) purge your conſciences from dead woorks, for to ſerue the liuing God? In ſtéede that the Apoſtle ſayth, the bloud of Ieſus Chriſt, thoſe héere doe put the ſalt the water. But I wyll argue and reaſon after an other ſorte agaynſt Alexander, If the aſſhes of an Heyfer and the holy water that they doe make, by the ordinaunce and commaundement of God, cannot purge the conſcience, and can ſcrue but for a certeyne carnall purification, for to kéepe certeyne diſcipline in the Iewiſh Churche, and to prefigurate the true purgation which by the bloud of Ieſus Chriſte ought to be in the Chriſtian Churche, but it was neceſſary, that the onely ſonne of God ſhoulde ſhed out his owne bloud, which onely hath that vertue, how the ſalt & the ſalted water coniured by the prieſts, without hauing either law, commaundement or promiſe of God do it better.

Hillarius.

I ſhould haue ben greatly aſhamed to haue ſtayed ſo long vpon thoſe vaine & chidiſh ceremonies, but that I did ſée that the moſt wiſeſt, and the moſt greateſt Doctors haue bene abuſed and deceiued & are fallen into ſo many execrable blaſphemies.

Thomas.

How hath y ben poſſible? If it be ſo as you ſay, I am greatly abaſhed how y could be done.

Theophilus.

It hath taken as good effect among the ſuperſtitious Chriſtiās, as among y panims. For euen as the Panims & hipocrites, haue ben the Apes of the Patirarches The error of y idolaters & hypocrites. Prophets and true ſeruants of God, ſo haue thoſe bene héere. For all that which the Panims dyd, dyd ſéeme to haue ſome coulour and imitation of the lawe whiche God gaue vnto hys people. For that which they ſacryficed in the mountaynes, that they cauſed the chylbren to paſſe thorow the fire, & ſacrificed them vnto Moloch, and the waſſhings that they had, dyd ſeeme to be taken of the cuſtome of the auncient Patriarches, and of the people of Iſraell, after that ſorte as the Turkes doe The vv ••• hings of the Turkes. followe them at this daye: who doe ſpende and beſtow a great parte of the time, aboute ſuch waſſhinges and Ceremonies. But there is greate difference. For although they followe ſomewhat in outward appearaunce, the woorkes of the auncient ſeruauntes of God, yet neuertheleſſe The falſe imi •• cion of the vvoorkes of the Saints. they fayle greatlye, in that that they doe it wythout the commaundement of God, followinge onely their fooliſhe ſantaſie and opinion: And they dooe it not in ſuch fayth, to ſuch intent, and wyth ſuche a ſpyrite, as they dyd. For they dyd them to render obedyence vnto the commaundement of GOD, the whiche Obedienco was vnto hym a ſacrifice more agréeable, then the Ceremony, which for that ende was ordayned: Nowe theſe héere cannot ſcriue God by ſuch obedyence, ſith that they haue no commaundement: But they doe offende thorow diſobedience, deſpyſinge the meanes that he hath commaunded, and chooſinge others contrary vnto his wyll. Furthermore the true Iſraelites dyd not thinke to bée purified by thoſe outwarde thinges, but had regarde onely vnto the bloud of Ieſus Chriſte, by them repreſented: And they truſted but onelye in the mercye of God. But thoſe éere doe attribute the vertue vnto the outwarde woorke, and to the creature, ſayinge that ſuch Ceremonies, and Sacraments, haue efficacy by the vertue of the woorke done: Or if thou loueſt rather in theire naturall language. Ex virtute operis operati. Nowe Ex virtute operis oper. ••• if the Prophetes haue rebuked and condempned the vipocrites who haue put the whole truſt of their health and Eſa. 1. 2. 12 ſaluation vnto the ceremonies commaunded by the lawe of God, and haue reiected and reproued their ſacrifices and purifications, how much more are our hipocrits to be condemned, which do not only make a god of their works, but which is worſe, doe make the ſame of the woorkes which are nothing at all commaunded of God, but altogether condempned.

Hillarius.

Wée may rightly compare them vnto thoſe good merchaunts, of whom Ouid maketh mencion after this manner.

Hard by Capena gate there is Faſt. 5. of Mercury a well, Wherein is vertue rare and ſtraunge as cunning folkes doe tell. For Merchaunts doe thether repaire with pitcher ready pight, And therewithall doe water drawe, by vertue of whoſe might The Laurell branch is dropping wet, and all thoſe things that ſhall By Maſters right be ſet to ſale, are ſprinckled therewithall. And after that his head is wet by ſprinckling of the bayes, Vnto the Gods in wonted wiſe his prayer thus he ſayes: Waſh off (ſayth he) my periury of thoſe times that are paſt, Waſh of my falſe and fained woords my falſehood now off caſt.

Bycauſe that they holde and accompt Mercurius for the God of the théeues, it ſemeth vnto them that the one of the théeues wyll eaſelye abſolue the other, and that the larcenies, periuries and rapines ſhall be waſhed away as ſoone as they ſhal caſt a little water vpon them. Wherfore our Papiſtes knowing that they haue the like God in the earth, do the like.

Theophilus.

Therefore it is more then néede to crye with Eſay: Be ye waſhed, Be ye The true vvaſshings. Eſa. 1. d. 16 cleane. But how? Put away the euill from your thoughts, before mine eyes, ſaith the Lorde. And with Ieremy: O Hieruſalem, waſh thine hearte from wickednes. And with Iere 4. d. 14 Mat. 27. c. 25. Ieſus Chriſt: Thou blind Phariſie, clenſe firſt the inſide of the Cup and Platter that the outſide of them maye bée cleane alſo. Giue almes of that you haue, and béehold all thing is cleane vnto you. And therefore muſt wee ſay Luc. 11. 5. 41 with Dauid: O purge mée with Iſop and I ſhalbe clean, waſh thou mée and I ſhalbe whiter then Snowe. For Pſa. 51. b. 9 The true holy vvater. The ſprinckling of Iſope. there is none, which can make that holy water, but he only, who hath put the miniſtry of his Goſpel in his Church, which is the true ſprinkeling of Iſop, which thorow the preaching of Ieſus Chriſt crucified, ſprinkeleth and purgeth with his precious bloud our ſoules and conſciences.

Hillarius.

There is nothing truer, then that thou ſayeſt, as I will yet declare more perticulerly Firſt, as touching the purifications & ſprinklings of water, that is already too muche proued, & of the ſame is taken that which Ouid writeth of Deucalion and Pirrha his wife, willing to enter into ye Temple of the Goddeſſe Themis, of whom he ſpeaketh after this manner, after the tranſlation of the Engliſh Poet.

Whoſe ſacred liquor ſtraight they tooke Ouid. Meta. 1 and ſprinkled with the ſame Their heads and clothes: and afterward to Themis Chappell came.

In like manner Ouid reherſing the things which were Fast. 2. called Februa, bicauſe that the auncients vſed it in their purgations, maketh mention of the woll, ſalt, meale, and bowghes which they cauſed to be conſecrated for diuers purifications of men, beaſts and houſes: the which things the Papiſts haue almoſt altogether the like. For beſides the water and the fire, the war and the ſalt, they haue as many holy wolles, holy linnen clothes and ſacred veſtements. They haue the holy bread, and the bread of Sainct The holy bread Q of S. Agathe Agathe, which hath alſo great power: and the holy bowghs vpon the day of Palme Sunday, and of Caſter flowers. But the Panims do approche neerer to the auncient lawe of Moſes in their holy aſſhes, then the Papiſtes. For The holy aſshes Aum. 19. 4. 1 the Iewes dyd it with a red Cow, young and which neuer carryed yoke. The Panims dyd theirs with a young Calfe, newely taken from his mothers belly, the which the moſt auncienteſt of the virgins of the Goddeſſe Veſta, as wee may ſay the mother of the Prioreſſe burned in that holy fire which was made vpon the aulter of the ſaide goddeſſe, as it appeareth by theſe verſes of Ouid ſaying.

The eldeſt virgin amōgſt thē then, thoſe calues doth burn with fire Faſt. 4 To haue the aſſhes not to ſeeke, when time ſhall then requite. That when the feaſt of Pales doth, approch at hand ſo faſt, The people may be pure and cleane, when it is on them caſt.
Theophilus.

I doubt not but that Paniſh ſuperſtition was ſome thing taken of the imitation of the people of God but that whiche was done by the people of God, vnto his honoure, and contayninge the miſteryes of the redemption: was done in Idolatrye and ſuperſtition without faith amonge the Panims: as it is now amonge the Papiſtes.

Hillarius.

I am of thine opinion. But yet neuertheleſſe mee thinketh that the Panims haue more ſhewe and colour, for to defend them by the word of God. But bicauſe that that holy aſſhes was done in the daye of the feaſt of the Goddeſſe Pales, and that I haue yet to ſpeake of otter Goddeſſes here before mencioned, let vs returne vnto the feaſt of Candlemas and afterwardes let vs fall againe to the aſſhes, after that I ſhal haue a little followed certeine other conformities, the whiche I haue alreadye Cal. lee. aut li. 17 ca. 18. ſome thinge beganne. I haue alreadye touched howe you doe attrybute the ſame tytles vnto the Uirgyn Mary, Titles of the Goddeſſes of the Panims. whiche the Idolaters haue giuen vnto Iuno, Diana, Ceres and Proſerpina, whom they haue called ſome of them Quéenes of Heauen, the others Ladies without Luc. 1. e. 48. Our Lady. a tayle. Shee called hir ſelfe the handemayde and ſeruaunt of the Lorde, and you doe call hir our Lady, as though there were in Heauen Lordes and Ladyes, as there is in the Earth: and a King and a Quéene as there is a Sunne and a Moone.

Theophilus.

The Scripture admitteth but one king One onely king and Lord. 1. Tim. 1 d. 17 Apoc. 19. c. 16 of the worlde, immortal and inuiſible and onely wiſe, vnto whome onelye belongeth all honour and glorye, and in whoſe thigh is written: King of Kings and Lorde of Lordes. Uppon whiche alſo wée haue the witneſſe of the Apoſtle, ſaying: Although that there bée 1. Cor. 8. b. 5 many Gods & manye Lordes in the worlde (to witte after the reputation of the Idolaters) yet neuertheles vnto vs, there is but one God and one Lord.

Hillarius.

Afterwards you doe make the ſame honour Flora. Lact. de fal. re. li. 1. ca. 20. vnto the Uirgyn Mary, which the Romaines dyd vnto the Harlot Flora, whome they haue made a Goddeſſe and canoniſed hir, bicauſe that ſhée made them heyres of hir goodes, whiche ſhée hadde gayned by whoredome. Chloris Ouid. Faſt. 4. 5. And afterwardes for to couer and hyde their honoure, haue called hir Chloris, and haue giuen vnto hir power to make the Earth to fructifie and increaſe. Doe yée not greate honoure vnto that holye Uirgyn, to giue vnto hir Flora, that abhominable bawde and harlot for a compaignion? or to put hir in hir place? And the tyme agréeth well to the feaſte. For the Florales and the feaſte of Candlemas of Flora were dedycated vnto Florales. all lycenciouſeneſſe, ſhameleſſe playes, vpllaynies and diſſolutions, the whiche the falſe Chriſtians doe practiſe, all that time whiche is betweene the Kinges and Shroftyde, afterwardes they beginne agayne at Caſter and doe contynue vntyll the moneth of Maye, and almoſte all the yeare.

But chiefely at the feaſts of Caſter & in May after their Proſerpina & Hecate. lamentations of Lent. Furthermore the Panims do hold Proſerpina & Hecate for the Goddeſſe and Quéene of hell, and do light vnto hir Torches and candels and doe beſéech hir for the dead, to the ende ſhée be fauourable, as well for hir owne parte, as towardes hir huſband Pluto. And you, do ye muche leſſe of the Uirgin Mary, you doe Queene of heauen and of hell call hir Quéene of heauen: And you do make hir Quéene of hell and of the dead, as the Poets doe of Hecate, whom they do alſo take for Proſerpina and Diana vnto whom they do attribute great power in heauen and in hell: as it appeareth by that, that Virgill ſaith. Aene. 6.

To caſt in ſacred fire redemption chiefe of deedes amiſſe. And on Diana cals, in heauen and hell that mightie is.

Alſo in like manner you would make of Ieſus Chriſt a Pluto, or at the leaſt the difference is not great. And if you wil deny it I wil haue no more to proue it, but your proſe & ſequence of the dead, which is in good tyme, but yet neuertheleſſe Proſe and ſequence for the dead without reaſon, beginning in Latin: Lugentibus in Purgatorio: The which for to make it the better to ſoūd in thine eares friend Euſebius, & the better to follow the ſtile of the Fatiſts which haue made it, I wil revearſe it vnto thée in verſe word for worde the beſt & I can and if thou doe not finde the ryme ſo good as it is in Latine, be aſſured that there is more ryme and better, then there is of reaſon. For I do not thinke that one can finde greater blaſphemy againſt God and the Uirgyn Mary. If I do not tranſlate it word for worde, I will yet at the leaſt rehearſe the ſentence faithfully. Giue eare then, and I will poure it forth.

1 To all them that doe dwel: in Purgatory paine Eugentibus in purgatorio &c. Reſidium in ſi. ne iſtius Dialog 7. Where firy furies fel: and ſorrowes they ſuſtaine, And torments doe endure: voide of ſolation, Come ſhew them ſome ecure: by thy compaſſion. O Mary. 2 Thou art the well alone: which waſheſt ſinnes away, Thou hydeſt euery one: and none thou doeſt denay. Extend thy hand toward: theſe ſoules and ſuccorr ſhew Which thus without regard: lye languiſhing in woe, O Mary. 3 The dampned ſpirites to thee: ſo pitious do aſplie Deſiring for to bee: deliuered foom the fire. That by thee they may bee: erepted for their paine, And may in ioyes with thee: for euermore remaine. O Mary. 4 Of Dauid only kay: which heauen openeſt wyde, Theſe wretches helpe ſtreight way: which dolors do abide Let them deliuered be: from dongeon and durance, Where they do linked lye: in ſorrow and greuance. O Mary. 5 A rule art thou full right: to them that thee aſſye, A liuely lampe of light: to them that truſt in thee, Incontinent go pray: for theſe ſoules in diſtreſſe, Thy ſonne that he ſtreight way: their dolour will releſſe. O Mary. 6 O Virgin thus we do: vpon thee cry and call, Theſe ſoules ſo tangled, to: deliuer out of thrall. And pardoning their miſdeed: alſo wee thee requeſt, That thou wilt be their guyde: to euerlaſting reſt. O Mary.

Do ye not behold a goodly Letanie? may not Ieſus Chriſt now reſt? For the Scripture attributeth vnto him nothing, which is not here altogether, attributed vnto the creature. Wherefore I will haue none other propoſition for to proue that that profe contayneth the greateſt blaſphemye which may be vppon the earth, but only that eyther the ſame that I do ſay is true, or els that the holy Scripture is falſe, and Ieſus Chriſte is no more Ieſus Chriſte, the Titles of Chriſt Iohn. 10. b. . Apoc. 3. b. 7 Iohn. 14. a. 6. dore, the key, and he which holdeth it, which openeth and ſutteth, the way the trueth and ye life, by whom onely wée haue acceſſe vnto the father: or onely hope, the reſurrection and remiſſion of ſinnes: or only aduocate patron and mediator? the which titles and many other like, the Scripture 1. Iohn. 2. a. 1 attributeth vnto him onelye and not vnto the creature whatſoeuer it bée, eyther in heauen or in the earth. Wilt thou now deny, but you doe make of the Uirgin Mary a Proſerping: and of the other ſide a Ceres? whom in like manner you doe honor by putting on of white apparel, and Write apparell with faſtings & ſuperſtitious abſtinences, euen as Ouid hath written of Ceres, ſaying.

The Goddeſſe Ceres beſt doth like Faſt. 4. the garment made of white And for hir vſe in garment blacke ſhee no thing doth delite.

Behold as touching the apparell. Giue eare alſo to that Faſtings. Faſt. 4. Coriat. le nat. deo. l. cui. which he ſpeaketh of the ſuperſtitious faſtings.

Their feaſting laſted all the day till time of night drew neare And then they ſtreight to ſupper went Cal. lee. ant. li. 26. ca. 20. Faſt. 4. when ſtarres in skye appeare

As muche did they in like manner vnto Iſis and Cible, whom you wil bring all into the Chriſtianitie vnder the Plat. de Oſiri. & Iſida. title of that good virgin. And not béeing contented with ye yée do adde yet Iuno Soſpita, vnto whom ye title was giuē, bicauſe that ye Panims did attribute vnto hir the vertue to Iuno Soſpita. Ouid. Faſt. 2. heale & ſaue men. For Soſpita ſignifieth aſmuch as a ſauereſſe or woman ſauer. Therefore al thoſe ye were ſicke or Iupiter a ſauiour. diſeaſed did call vpon hir with Iupiter the ſauiour, Ieſus Chriſt is not ſufficient for you for a ſauiour, except you do adde a ſauereſſe or a woman ſauiour. It is not ſufficient for you to haue him for a Porter and key bearer in heauen, but yee muſt ioyne to him a ſhee porter and ſhée key keeper, to the end that we ſhould haue the Goddeſſe Carua The goddeſſe Carua porter. Faſt. 6. aſwell as the Panims had, vnto whom Ouid giueth ſuch power, as you do giue in that proſe vnto your newe Uirgin Mary, the whiche you haue forged and made of your owne minde. For ſhée which was the Mother of Ieſus would not commit ſacriledge, for to ſteale from Ieſus Chriſt hir ſonne the honour whiche to him alone apperteyneth. But marke well whether the verſe of Ouid ſpeaking of the Goddeſſe Carua, doth euill agrée with your proſe.

Through hir great force and mighty power Faſt. 6. that which is cloſe and ſhet Shee doth ſet ope and ſhut againe without any mans let.

Furthermore you apply hir to you purpoſe, as they did the Goddeſſe whom they did call Muete and the Goddeſſe The Goddeſſe Muete. Dea Muta. Ouid. Faſt. 2. Palis. For after that they had ended that that belongeth vnto the dead, they did alſo make a magicall ſacrifice, to ye Goddeſſe Muete to which they did put incēce, war, beanes & other like things, & they did think ye it had vertue againſt Sacrifice againſt the enemyes and backebiters their enemies, for to kéepe thē, & chiefly for to ſtop ye mouth of the euill ſpeakers and backebiters,

Thomas.

The poore prieſts ſhoulde haue neede to make ſuch ſacrifices againſt you for to bridle your mad tongues & to ſtop your mouths

Hillarius.

They haue the Agnus Dei of war which the Rat. diui. off. li. 6. Pope bleſſeth ye great Satterday, which ought to haue that vertue.

Theophilus.

They néed none other ſacrifice, then to to be good people, of good doctrine & a holy life, and duely to exerciſe ye office of ſhepheardes, as ye true diſciples & miniſters of Ieſus Chriſte, & they ſhal eaſely tye ye tongue of all backbiters & euil ſpeakers: or they ſhal do at y leaſt that it ſhal not hurt them, & that thoſe which now do ſpeake euil, ſhal finde themſelues lyers if they perſeuer & continue in The goddeſſe Pales. Ouid. Faſt. 4. The purging fire. it.

Hillarius.

Yet there remaineth the feaſt of Palis, the Goddeſſe of the Shepheards, in the whiche alſo they did make the purging fires, and the ſhepheards did leape vpon the flames, thinking that by thoſe fires they wer purified. I think y of that cuſtome came y fires of Saint Brandons, The fires of S. Brandon and of Saint Iohn. for thoſe that were new maried, and thoſe of Sainct Iohn: afterwardes in that ſame feaſte they made perſumes, beſides Hly aſ hes. the holy aſſhes of which we haue already inademē tion off, and of the holy water, aſwell for to purge the men 〈◊〉 of m n & o 〈◊〉 as the beaſts, and did make ſprinklings vpon them, for to éepe them from euill The which ceremonies Ourd hath all compriſed in theſe veſtek.

And ſurely I my ſelfe in hande. Faſt. 5. the ſacnfice did take The beme ſtalke, and the aſshes which the burned Calues did make. And thrice I paſt the firy ſlames in order placed there Which all be ſprinkled with the dew of droppong Lautell were. And of the perfumes in that ſame booke he ſaith Perfumes from virgins alter fetch which Veſta will giue thee For by the vet ue of hir gift thou purified ſhalt bee. Thy pertumes ſhallbe Horſes bloud And aſſhes of a Calfe The third thing them ſhallbe the ſtalkes of beanes for that behalfe Let ſhephearde then make ſacrifice at dawning of the day Let him caſt wateron the earth and ſweepe the duſt away. Then ſheepefoldes trymly let be deckt with boughes and brauncues greene And let their wreathes and garlauds gay vppon the doores be ſeene Let blewiſh ſmoke likewiſe be made of Brimſtone good and fine And let the Sheepe ſmeerd with the ſmoke, his bleating voyce reſigne, Male Olyues then with fire conſume, the Iuniper and Pine, And let the Laurel crackelyng leaues, be burnt in chimney thine,

You haue alſo the torches and holy Candells, and the encenſings and perfumes, your holy aſſhes, which you giue the firſt day of Lent: and you haue alwayes your holy water ready, and your holy torches, as remedyes agaynſt all diſeaſes and daungers, of men and of beaſtes, and ye doe giue and vowe them vnto the Virgin Mary, and to the Saynts and Sayntes, as they did to the Goddeſſe Pales, which had the charge of the beaſtes. the Gods of & beaſtes. Obiection. lob. 10. b. 9. &. 2 b. 12 Pſa. 103. c. 14. Geneſ. 3. d. 19. Pſa. 40. b. 6

Euſebius.

Is that a thing contrarye vnto the word of God, to put holy aſſhes on the foreheads of ye Chriſtians, for to admoniſh then of their mortail condition, and fragilitie, to the ende that man ddoe remember that hée is but duſt, earth and aſſhes, and to the earth ſhall retourne agayne? Is not that a good aduertiſement, for to abate the pride and arroganicie of man, and to prepare hym vnto death and to the iudgement of God? And afterwardes, how many places of the holy Scripture are there which doe exhorte vs to humble our ſelues before God, with To vveare ſackcloth and afshes. fackecloth and aſſhes? And of examples of the ſeruaunts of God, which haue done the lyke? But you wyll not conſider thoſe places, but you had rather to ſpeake euill of it, and to referre it to the Panims.

Theophilus.

I denye not, but that the auncient and true ſeruauntes of God haue done peuaunee,faſted and prayed, wyth fackecloth and aſſhes, but howe doth that that they dyd, agrée with that that you doe?

Hillarius.

As much, as is betwéene the worke of a man and of an Ape.

Theophilus.

It is no lye. For that which the auncientes The aſshes of the auncients. dyd, they did it wyth a good heart, and not by outward geſtures. They dyd retourne againe vnto God by true repentaunce, confeſſion of their ſinnes, and amendement of lyfe. They made no Shrofeſide nor dyd burſte themſelues wyth eatinge and drinckinge. They dyd not giue themſelues to all dyſſolutions, fot to goe the nexte daye to haue a fewe afſhes put vppon their foreheades, as though they woulde playe a Maſke or a Ieſt, and to mocke wyth God and wyth men. Thery abſteyned The faſtings of the auncients Iudg. 20. d. 26 1. Reg. 7. b. 6 Neehe. 1. b. 4. heſt. 4. a. 3. Dan. 10. a. 3. Act. 13. 2. 3 not onely from certeyne meates vntyll noone, for to ſtuffe and fill themſclues afterwardes wyth other meates, and to eate vntill they burſt: But they abſteyned firſt form vice and ſinne, and afterwardes from all pleaſures, delyghtes and pompes. They abſteyned from eatinge and drindcking all a daye vntill night, and ſometyme continued their prayers vntill two of theire owne voluntarye wyll and good heart, when they dyd knowe that it was erpedient for them ſo to doe, or for to macerate and chaſtice theire bodye: or when they dyd ſée the furour and anger of GOD kindled agaynſte theyre ſinnes: or when they had any great matter of weyght to doe, to the which fayth is greatly required, and the ayde and aſſiſtaunce of GOD, and for to demaunde and obteyne, the prayer and oriſon, the which requyreth Prayer. ſobrietie and abſtmence, to the ende the ſpirite bée more frée, feruent, and more zealous to GOD. But they had no lawe, for to make difference betwéene meat and meat, other then that of Moſes: nor which forbiddeth them fleſh, which by the ſame was permitted them: nor that they bound them vnto certeyne dayes, or certeine meates, and to faſt vnder paine of deadly ſinne. The lavv of faſting Mon anus Here ticke Euſeb. hiſt. ec. ole. li. . ca. 18

For the firſt that made the lawe to faſt was Montanus the her like, as the eccleſiaſticall hiſtorye wytneſſeth. Alſo they attributed not their health and iuſtification, to the merite of their faſtinges and other woorkes, nor they dyd not preſent them vnto God, for ſatiſfaction of their ſinnes: and yet leſſe the ſackecloth and aſſhes, wherwyth they did couer themſelues: But to the onely goodneſſe and mercye of God. And they dyd not that, but for to wytneſſe their fayth and repentaunce, which dyd bringe foorth ſuch fruites: and for to moue and ſturrethem the better to call vppon GOD, and to The profite of ſackecloth and aſshes. Hypocriſie. giue themſelues wholy vnto him. For without the ſame, neyther ſackecloth nor aſſhes, nor the abſtinence of meates, wyll not profite, but for to prouoke the wrath of God, thorowe ſuch hipocriſie, the whiche nothinge can Iohn. 8. f. 44. bée more dyſpleaſing vnto hym. For ſith that GOD is truth, and the Father thereoff, and the Diuell is lyer and the Father of lyes, what thinge can bée more contrary vnto the nature of GOD, and hys truth, whiche ought to ſhine in hys children, then hipocriſie the daughter of the Diuell and of lyes? & to lye vpon the ſpirite of God and his Church? For what other thinge is hipocriſſe Hypocrite. and diſſimulation, but lying? And what other thing is the hipocrite before GOD, but a diſſembler,beguiler, and a ſcoffer, a mocker of God and men, and a very traytour and deceiuer? who woulde bée eſtéemed other then hée is, and thincketh to deceine both GOD and men, caringe but for to pleaſe men, as hée whiche playeth his parte vppon a ſtage or ſeaffolde, onelye for to gette prayſe and glorye: As our Lorde Ieſus Chriſte wytneſſeth of the Scribes and Phariſes, who dooe all their woorkes but for the prayſe of the worlde: For as Mat. 6. a. 2. & 22. a. 5 Ierem. 5. a. 3. the Prophet ſayth, O Lorde thou lookeſt onely vppon fayth. If the beſt woorkes that God euer commaunded be not profitable vnto him that doeth them, if they procéede not of a true & liuely faith, without vnſaincdneſſe, with a Hebr. 11. a. 1. 1. Tim. 1. a. 5 pure heart and a good conſcience, without dooing it to any other ende, but to the glorye of God, and health of our neighboure, whereto then can the vare ceremonies ſerue, The ceremonics whiche of themſelues are nothinge worth, but foraſmuche as they dooe ſerue to more greater things, and that they are as the rudimentes, and begynnings, and the firſt elements & degrées, for to come and attayne vnto greater things, to yt which they prepare do: As yt letters, ye Alphabet and the firſt rules Grammer, doe prepare lyttle children and younge Grammarians, to a hygher knowldge, and more greater percfection: or otherwiſe all that ſhould ſerue them but in little ſteede. Therefore Saincte Paule The rodlments of the relygion Gal. 4. 2. 3 called the Iewiſh and Moſaiacall Ceremonies, the elementes of the worlde. They doe alſo ſerue vs as the ſcaffoldes which the Maſons doe make for to builde a houſe, the which are caſt away after that the houſe is finiſhed. For they are of themſelues vndrofitable, ſauinge onely that they voe ſerue for a better thing. And therefore Faſtings condemned Mat. 6. a. 2. let vs beholde howe our Lorde Ieſus Chriſt, condemned the faſtings of the Scribes and hipocryticall Phariſes: And by hys Prophet Eſay, thoſe which abſteyned onely from meates and puniſhed theire bodyes, and couered themſelues with ſackecloth and aſſhes: But they abſteyned not from dooing euyll, from plaintes and proceſſe, from violence and rapines: as the moſt parte of our faſters are at this day, which do make it a cōſcience to eat a péece of porke, beale, mutton or of other beaſtes, and doe Abſtinence frōbrutish flesh. Deuouring of mans flesh. make it no conſcience to eate and deuoure mans fleſh, and the bowels, tripes and entrayles of their Chriſtian bretheren, thorowe their inſatiable auarice and couetouſneſſe. And yet neuertheleſſe they play the Dipocrites, and knéele downe before the Prieſt, for to receyue thoſe holy aſſhes, as in ſigne and wytneſſe of a greate humplitie and abiection of themſelues. But if they dyd truelye beléeue that they are earth and aſſhes, wherefore doe A layned humilitie. not they feare the iudgement of GOD, and leaue off from their violences and ertorcions? For they ought not to thincke, that wyth ſuch maſkes, they can content and pleaſe God, whiche hath no néede of babels, for to paſſe away the tyme. For the faſtinge hath bene chiefely The principall vſe of faſting. vſed, among the true ſeruaunts of God, for to helpe them in their peayer, the which is almoſt alwayes ioyned with faſtinge, in all the places of the Scripture which maketh mention of faſtinge. For that cauſe ſayde Ieſus Chriſte vnto his Diſciples ſpeakinge of that Diuell which they coulde not driue out of the LunatickeL That kinde of diuell Mat. 17. d. 27. cannot bée driuen out, but by faſtinges and prayers: Letting them thereby to vnderſtande, that they wanted To driue out ye diuel by faſting and prayer. great fayth, and that their incredulitye and vnbeliefe was che cauſe that they could not driue hym out.

Wherfore it was moſt neceſſary for them to praye, the which requireth abſtinence and ſobrietie, for to bee more Incredulitie. Prayers. Abſtinence frō meates. The faſting and abſtinence of the Panims Cal Rhod. let. aut. li. 26. c. 20. Hierome Apul. ſin. aur. li. 11. ſpirituall and ſeruent. But otherwyſe, the faſtinge and the abſtinence, which hath regarde but to the meates, why ſhoulde it bée more praiſe worthy amonge the Chriſtians, then the abſtinence of the Philoſophers whiche doe abſteine from fleſhe? or that of the Prieſtes of Iſis, and Cyble, who doe abſteine from eating of bread? whom Saincte Hierome rebuked, bicauſe they dare not eate bread for feare to breake their faſtinges, but they muſt make greate prouiſion for Pheſauntes, Partriges, and other deyntie foules. They doe as ours doe, which dare not eate of the larde and fat bacon, but they ſéeke bothſea and lande for to finde out new delicate diſſhes. Is not the perpetuall abſtinence from wyne which the Lurkes kept to bée preferred? But I wyll not at this time enter into that matter of faſtinges any further. For it cannot bée ended in a ſmall tyme. But if the faſtinges and ſuch corporall exerciſes doe lyttle profite, excepte 1. Tim. 4. a. 3. they haue wyth them the thinges, by reaſon whereoff they are ordayned, to what ende can ſackecloth and aſſhes ſerue: eſpecially after that ſorte as they are giuen at this daye, the which hath no lykelyhoode or agreeinge wyth the cuſtome of the auncient ſeruauntes of God? For they dyd not thincke to bée puryfied and ſanctyfied by thoſe aſſhes, nor that they ſhoulde bringe any health or ſaluation vnto the ſoule by that ſprincklinge, as you doe by yours. Let the prayer, the which you doe vſe in the cenſecration and halowinge of them: bee a witneſſe in the which you doe praye God, that it woulde The bleſsing of aſshes. Miltere digneris ſanctum Angelum tuumde pleaſe hym to ſende his holy Angel from heauen, to bleſſe and ſanctifie theſe aſſhes, to the ende they maye bée a healthfull remedy vnto all thoſe whiche doe call vpon his celis, qui benet dical & ſanct fiees hes •• ueres & . name: and that althoſe which de poure them vpon them, maye receiue bealiſh of their body, and ſafegarde of their ſoule, for the redemption of their ſinnes. Thoſe aſſhes ſhould haue as much vertue as the bloud of Ieſus Chriſt. They ſhould haue yet more ſhew and colour, as already hath bene declared, to reſtore the auncient Iewiſth Ceremonye, The aſshes of an Heyſer. Numeri. 19. a. 2. and to make aſſhes of the younge heyfer, then to doe that that they doe, or to make them of a Calfe, as the Pomaines dyd. For they ſhoulde haue more coulor in the holy Scripture, in the which they ſhall finde no inſtitution of their aſſhes.

Hillarius.

If they doe not finde it in the holy Scripture. ought it not to ſuffice thée, that it is founde in the Balender of Ouid. But they doe adde moreouer that the Veſtalles wyth thoſe conſecrated aſſhes, for the purgation of the people: not onely made wyth a Calfe, but Holy perſumes: The macter so make the aſshes Feria 4. cinerū ante miſſam be nedicuntur cineres facti de ramis benedictis pretcritis anniſi habentur in medio hore ante altare &c. Purgaroty of the quicke and the dead. alſo wyth ſtalkes and poddes of beanes, had perfumes of Brimſtone, of Torches, of the Laurell or Bay trée, of the Dliffes, of Roſemarye, and other lyke ſwéete and oderiferant trées and hearbes: of which your Miſſell teacheth you to make your aſſhe, to wytte of the boughes which were bleſſed the yeare before: and of the bandes and begins which they doe put on the little chyldren in their baptiſme and confirmation. Doſt thou thincke Euſebius, that thoſe thinges doe euyll agrée wyth your Ceremonies, and the purgations that you haue nas wel for the quicke as for the dead. For ſith that the bloud of Ieſus Chriſt is not ſufficient for you, it muſt néedes be that you haue a Purgatory both for the one and the other: But I haue yet forgotten, that at the feaſt of the dead, the Panims dyd ſhut their Temples, and couer and hide their images, as Ouid hath in lyke manner deſcrided by theſe verſes.

The Gods of Churches were ſhut vp, Faſt. 2. with cloſe and priuy doores: And alters wanted ſacrifice, none incenſe on them poures, Then did poore ſoules and bodies dead, committed to the graue Still ſtray abroade and feede on that ſet for them then to haue.

The Athenians alſo vſed Ceremonies altogether like vnto yt feaſts of Praxiergide, which they celebrated in Athens in the moneth of February, to the which the one holdeth the ſecrete miſteries: one other pulleth downe all the ornamentes of the Temple, and an other couereth the Image that was there. Doe not you receiue and vſe yet at this day all in all, thoſe ſame manner of dooings, the which you haue referred to Lent, and doe ſtoppe the Coel. Rhod. lee. ut. li. 14. ca. 9. To ſtoppe the Idolls noſes. The vayle. 2. Cor. 3. c. 1 noſes of your Idolls, and hange a vayle before them, for to declare that it is taken no more from you then from the Iewes. I know not whether you be afraide leaſt they ſhould ſmel. the garlike which you eat in Lent. I wil leaue off to ſpeake of other ſperſtitions & Idolatries which you haue borrowed of the Panims. For I ſhould neuer make an ende. But I will onely ſhew one part of thoſe which are deſcended from the feaſt of the dead, celebrated amōg the Panims, and of the purgations y they haue, aſwel for the quick as for the dead: to the ende thou ſhouldeſt know that euen as you haue followed thē for y purgations of the buing, ſo haue you done in thoſe of ye dead.

Theophilus.

It ſéemeth alſo y Tertulian would referre, that which y Corinthians Teriul. aduerſ. Martio. b. s. & li. dere. cor. Baptiſme for the dead 1. Cor. 15. d. 29 did baptize themſelues for ye dead, to ye Februales & purifiecations of the panims, as letting to vnderſtand, that where the Corinthians dyd baptize themſelues for the dead, was a ſuperſtition which they did yet kéepe of their auncient cuſtomes, crcept y in ſtéede of yt paniſh ſuperſtitions, they did abuſe yt baptiſme, thinking y it ought to ſerue for the dead, as we do ſée in our time yt they haue applyed it vnto the Lords ſupper, by the means of Maſſes yt which The ſupper. for the dead. the ſuperſtitins Papiſts doe thinke to profit the dead, in whoſe name the Prieſt doth cōmunicate and ſing it. Although that the wordes of Tertulian are obſcure and very harde, yet to cramine them together, it ſéemeth verye well that he meaneth the ſame, and the auncientes haue almoſt all taken it after that manner: notwythſtandinge that others doe take it in an other ſence, and doe interprete that place of Sainct Paule, of thoſe which doe cauſe An other interpretation of the place. 1. Cor. 15. themſelues to bée baptiſed, when they were in extreme ſickneſſe and néere vnto death. For the cuſtome was that thoſe which came to the ſayth (which men call the Catechumenis, bicauſe they are inſtructed in the fayth The cuſtome of the Gatechumenus. Baptiſme deferred. and Chriſtian Religion) dyd not of cuſtome cauſe themſelues to bée ſodedinely baptiſed, vntill ſuche time as they were well inſtructed and taught in the ſecrete miſteries, and doctrine of the Chriſtian Religion. And therfore bycayſe they had the baptiſme in great reuernce, and dyd beléeue that thorow the ſame they had full remyſſion and forgiueneſſe of all their ſinnes, and were altogether renued, many taryed and referred to be baptiſed, vntyll they were lyke to dye, thinckinge that when they dyed in ſuch a ſtate, they were more purewr and cleaner from their ſinnes: the whiche they coulde neuer haue done, if they had not truelye beléeued and hoped for the immortalytie of the ſoules, and the reſurrection of the fleſhe. Although that the Apoſtles allowed not ſuche manner of dooinge. Thoſe which doe take the woordes of the Apoſtle after ſuch a ſence and meaninge, are induced to doe it, bicauſe that they thincke, that if the Apoſtle dyd vnderſtande and meane that of the Paniſh ſuperſtitions, that he would not haue paſſed it ouer, wythout To baptiſe thē ſelues for the dead. rebuking that errour: and doe expound it that they ſhould baptiſe themſelues of the dead: that is to ſay, as dead, and as people which repute themſeluesalready dead. I haue the willinger touched this, for to giue occaſion vnto ye readers, to examine well that place and the expoſition of the auncientes and others.

Hillarius.

We haue ſufficiently entreated of that matter Euſebius, and thinke that thou ſhalt haue ſomewhat to doe to ſeperate againſt that which we haue propounded, for to proue that your ceremonies, & prayers for the dead are taken of the true Church of Ieſus Chriſt. For I haue rehearſed vnto thee one parte of the Popes Kalender, and mée ſéemeth that he ought to giue mée good wages for to end them all and his feaſts: as Ouid hath written thoſe of the Romaines.

Euſebius.

If thou haddeſt as well read the workes of Sainct Auguſtine, and of other auncient Doctors, as the bookes of Ouid and other Poets and Autors of the Panims, thou wouldeſt ſpeake otherwiſe, and thou ſhouldeſt not haue fallen into ſuch déepe rootes of errors and hereſles in which thou art wrapped in, in ſuch for that thou canſt not come forth, what ſo euer thing one may propound to the contrary.

Hillarius,

I gladly deſire, if that I am plounged in ſo déep[e error as thou ſayeſt that I am, that thou wouldeſt ayde and helpe me to come out of it: And if I haue not reade the auncient Doctors ſo diligently, as thou thinkeſt that thou haſte reade, I woulde that therein thou wouldeſt amende my faulte, and that thou couldeſt ſhewe mee ſo good out of their bookes, that I might haue occaſion to content my ſelfe. But I doe now know by experience, that that which I thought, is true. For I doubt very much, that euen as I haue ſayd at the beginning, all thy artillery, canons, and munititions with thy matter gunner Eccius, ſhould be all conſumed into ſmoke, as it appeareth vnto mée at this preſent. I did looke for certeine ſtrong argumentes and that a great number of them, but if thou haſt no other weapons, thou art not ſo wel armed as thou vaunteſt thy ſelfe: except peraduenture there bee ſome thinge more excellent in the arriere garde.

Euſebius.

Sing not the triumph before the victory. For thou art yet very farre from thy rekoning, and from that thou thinckeſt, the ſtrongeſt is yet to doe. But with much a doe one could ſpeake a word before thée. Thou art of the nature of women. For thou muſt alwayes bee balinge, and thou wouldſt rather dye, but that thou wylt haue the laſt word. Thomas hath graunted vnto mée this day, to put foorth my reaſons, and to aunſwere and relye vnto yours: But euen as Theophilus and you doe? So muſt I yet haue a few dayes reſpite, before that I can bring that that I haue to ſay againſt you.

Theophilus.

Thou doeſt wronge to complaine, as for my part of thou canſt not ſay, that I euer did interrrupt thy talke, and but that I haue alwayes ſuffred al that thatthou wouldeſt ſpeake, hearing thée in all patience and modeſty.

Thomas.

I am well content for my part, to giue vnto thée the day which I ought to haue for my ſelf, if this here be not ſufficient for thee. For I haue not ſo much learning and knowledge, but that I am more fitter to be a hearer then a Dector.

Hillarius.

Wée wil giue thée as long time as thou wilt. But peraduenture you do not vndeſtand where Euſebius griefe lieth and on whiche ſide his ſhooe wringeth him. I know not whether hee hath yet eate or dronke to day. As for mée yeſterdayes iorney admoniſhed mee to take a little, & to drinke a draught of wine before I came: the which thing is the cauſe, that I am not ſo much thirſtly as I was the day before: although that we haue bene a long tyme about the fire. As for Thomas. I beléeue that he hath bene no more euill avuiſed than I, and that he is no leſſe diſpoſed to drinke in the morning. Touching Theophilus and Euſebius, I feare very much but that they are yet faſting. For Theophilus is a man very ſtudious and fover, which to eate little & late, infomuch that I do more greatly eſteeme his ſobriety & dayly & ordinary abſtmence, then the faſtings of y prieſts & Moonks. As for E ſel m , he is ſo ſuperſtitious that he fauoreth em what Mooukiſh. wherefore I doubt not, but for to make han obedient to y holy Mother the Romiſh Church, doth faſt, fith that according to the ordinaunce of the ſame, it is the day of faſt.

Euſebius.

it is néedefull, that I and others do faſt. For I am certeine, that if the faſtin g had none other mainteiners then thou and ſuch as thou art, they ſhould bee ſoone aboliſhed. Hellarms. I know not what I ſhould voe, but at the leaſt I am at this day ayded to mainteine them: and a litle wanted, but that I haue learned theée to faſte after the auncient manner. But thou oughteſt not to finde that ſtraunge. For ſith that we haue ſpoken of faſting, it was in like manner requiſit to practiſe it. Yet neuertheleſſe the eueming and the night are not yet come, whiche was the time and the houre that the auncients vſed to reaſt themſelues on the faſting dayes. but to the end thou haue none occaſion to complaine, I thinke it beſt, that thou doe defer that which thou haſt yet to ſay, vntill after drinking: & for my part, I promiſe thee to ſuffer thée to ſpeake as much as thou wilt, and I will kéepe ſo good ſilence, that thou ſhalt not checke mée, as thou haſt now done.

Euſebius.

I am content with that thou ſaieſt, ſo thou do kéepe thy promiſe. But I greatly feare, that thou wilt do nothing.

Hillarius.

Thou ſhalt ſée, & before that thou do ſleepe thou ſhalt haue the experience. For I will leaue it ot thée and to Theophilus to do. Then let vs go to refreſh our bodies, and in the meane time preprare thy ſelfe fot to fight valiantly.

THE SVMME OF THE fourth Dialogue.

BIcauſe that the enemies of the truth doe glory in themſelues that they haue the auncient Doctors on their ſide, for to mainteine their abuſes and ſuperſticions: in this Dialogue Euſebius trauayleth all that he can, for to vphold his Religion, & to proue his intent by the Eccleſiaſticall Doctors: vnto whom Theophilus ſheweth how hee corrupteth and peruerteth the ſence and intelligence of their words, and how they do condemne the errors and abuſes of the Papiſtes: by occaſion whereoff, is alſo declared wherin ſomtime the auncient Doctors haue bene deceiued and ouercome, following more the opinion of men, then the certein witnes of the word of god: And when, & how the papiſtical Purgatory hath begun: what foundation, ſtay & ſhore it hath. It is alſo amply intreated of what original and beginning the priuate and perticuler Maſſes came, and the cuſtome to ſing them for the dead, and the diſpiſing of the holy ſacrament of the ſupper of Ieſus Chriſt, and of the true Chriſtian Communion. And therefore this Dialogue is entituled, the Age of the Maſſe and of Purgatory, bicauſe that it ſheweth how it was borne, encreaſed & augmented, & the Purgatory in like manner.

¶ THE FOVRTH DIALOGVE which is called the Age of the Maſſe and of Purgatory. THomas.

As farre as I can preſume by the words which I haue heard of Euſebius, I truſt that I ſhal heare you to bring foorth a matter, the which will pleaſe mée wel, & which I deſire greatly to vnderſtand. For I ſée dayly, that men do blame you, which are taken and accompted for Heretickes, to corrupt & peruert the ſence of the holy Scriptures. Men doe vnto you this honour, to ſay, that you will not receiue the witneſſe nor the authoritie, but of the holy Scripture, and that you doe proue by the ſame all that which you put foorth, hut all the euil is in this, that you take them to your aduan̄tage, and turne and wreſt them to your ſence and carnall intelligence, and therefore you will not receiue the expoſitions of the good Doctors. But I will ſée now, howe you canne beare it, and whether the Doctors of the Churche are of our ſide or on yours. And therefore I pray thée Euſebius, yt thou doe purſue thine enterpriſe, and that thou ſhew forth ſo good places, that they cannot be eaſely plucked from thy hands, as they haue done thoſe which thou haſt alreadye taken of Sainct Ambroſe.

Euſebius.

If I would diſplay and ſhew foorth all that that I might alleadge, aſwel of the new and late Doctors as of the aun ient, I ſhould aſwell ſet them a worke, as Hillarius did vaunt himſelfe of late to haue ſet mée on worke, but I haue not determined to alleadge others, but of the moſt auncienteſt and of thoſe whiche are of more greater authorite in the church, by the which I will plainly proue, that that which we doe now in the fauour of the dead, deſcended from the primatiue Churche and from the The propoſitiō and intent of Euſebius traditions of the Apoſtles. For if I would bring foorth the Doctors of late dayes, they would by and by reicete and deſpiſe their authoritie, and woulde make none accompte of it: But when I ſhall haue proued, that the auncient Doctors of the Churche are on our ſide, I ſhall by and by allow and confirme the authoritie and witneſſe of the late Doctors, and will more eaſelier ſtoppe their mouthes: except they bée ſo paſt ſhame, that they care leproue and condemne all the holy men and Pillers of the Church, which haue ſhored and held it vppe in the time of the Apoſtles, and to affirme that there are not ſo manye good men and ſo wiſe and learned as they are.

Theophilus.

Thou ſhalt not finde vs ſo vnreaſonable. Put foorth thy caſe, afterward Iudge whether wée haue reade and vnderſtanded thoſe of whom you doe glorye ſo much in.

Thomas.

I haue heard thée ſpeake friend Fuſebius of S. Auguſtin Sainct Auguſtine namely among others, and I am of an opinion that he is the chiefeſt, by whom thou mayſt better fight, then by any other, if thou canſt finde in him a ſtrong ſtaffe for to defende thee and to make warre againſt them. For I haue vnderſtanded that there is none amonge al the auncient Doctors which wil ſerue thē better for to proue their ſect, then hée. Wherefore I am ſure, that if thou canſt do ſo much, that thou canſt proue that he is contrary vnto them, they ſhall receiue a great ouerthrow, and thou ſhalt make a great breach in their Caſtle. For if hée ſo whome they haue their recourſe, be their enemie, they ſhal haue others which will riſe againſt them.

Euſebius.

But ſo well aſſured theroff, as thou are certeine that it is now daye. And to the end thou ſhouldeſt not thinke that there are but vaine wordes in my caſe, I will ſhew vnto them the experience. What do thoſe wordes ſignifie which are written in his Encheridion: which are alſo recited in y decrets Confeſ li. 9. ca. 12. 13. Cha. 110. & 109 13. q. 2. ca tempus. 4. ſen . diſt. 45. Ne ue. and in the maſter of the ſentences, ſaying: we muſt not denye, that the ſoules of the dead are comforted thorewe the pietie and deuotion of their friends that be aliue, when the ſacrifice of a mediatour is offered for them, or that almes is done in the Church. But thoſe thinges doe profite thoſe who haue merited them during this lyfe, The authoritie of S. Auguſtin for the ſuffrages of the dead. to the ende that they maye afterwarde profite them. For there is a certeine manner of liuing, whiche is not ſo good but that it requireth thoſe things after death? nor ſo euil, but that after the ſame, they may profit him. But there is in lyke manner ſome kinde of lyfe ſo good, that it requireth not the ſame. And againe ſome ſo euill that The diuerſity of lyues it cannot haue ayde by thoſe thinges, after that this life ſhalbe ended. And therefore hee getteth here all the merite, by whiche anye maye bee reléeued or gréeued after this life. Yet neuertheleſſe, there is none whiche hopeth to be able to merite towardes GOD, when he ſhall bée dead, whereoff hée hath not here made anye accempt. This then whiche the Churche hath frequented, for to prayſe the dead, is not contrary vnto that ſentence of the Apoſtle, which ſayth: wée ſhall all bée brought before the Rom. 14. c. 10. 2. Cor. 5. b. 10 iudgement ſeat of Chriſt, that euery man may receiue the workes of his body, according to that hée hath done, whether it hee good or badde. For euerye one acquireth and getteth that merite, when hée lyued in this bodye, that thoſe thinges maye profite him. For they profite not all men. And wherefore doe they not profite all men, but bycauſe of the difference of the lyfe, the whiche euerye one hathe lead in his bodye? Then when the Sacryfices, bée it of the Aulter, or of almes déedes, what ſoeuer they bée, they are offered for all the dead whiche haue bene baptiſed, thoſe are giuing of thankes for thoſe whiche haue bene verye good: and propitiations for thoſe whiche haue not bene very euill, for to make God fauorable vnto them. But for the moſte wicked and euill, although that there bée not aydes and helpes for the dead, yet neuertheleſſe thoſe are certeine conſolations for the lyuing. But they doe profite thoſe that they doe profite, eyther to the ende that they maye haue full remiſſion and forgiueneſſe: or without all eubt, to the ende that the dampnation maye bée more tollerable and eaſier to beare.

Thomas.

Hath Sainct Auguſtine written that?

uſebius. Doeſt thou thinke mée ſo much a foole, that & would declare it otherwiſe? I warrant you they would not let mee paſſe ſo, if they might ſaye the contrary. But I am certeine they dare not do it. And though they woulde, they cannot. For the booke is of faith and credit.

Thomas.

Thoſe wordes are very cléere, not onely for to proue the prayers for the dead, but alſo the ſacrifice of the ulter.

Euſebius.

One cannot finde a thing more cléerer. For it openeth ſo plainely all the matter perticulerly, and goeth before the obiections & replyings, which thoſe that do ſpeake againſt it might make. For it deuideth the diuers manners to liue, and diuers merites of men: And giueth In. ſer le vir. apo. & in gleſ. ſuper ulud. . Theſſa. 4. Nolimus: de agentibus curs. promor. 13. q 2. ca. non eſtimantus to vnderſtand, that it muſt bée hée which woulde that ſuch good déedes ſhould bée profitable vnto him after hys death, ſhould be here conducted in ſuch ſorte, that they may profit him: that is to ſay, that it muſt bée that he dye confeſſed and repentant. And hée ſpeaketh not onely this in this place, but in manye other like, amongeſt whiche hée addeth yet this: that notwithſtanding that that which we do for the dead, profit not all thoſe, for whom wée doe them. Yet neuertheleſſe bicauſe we do not know to whom it profiteth. we muſt do thē to all, y we leaue none out. For it is a greate deale better that thoſe to whome it can neither profit nor hurte, ſhould haue more then they neede, then to want any thing vnto thoſe which haue neede. And in the ſame booke he ſaith moreouer: wee doe reade in the ſecond booke of the Machabees, that ſacrifice was offred for the dead, but when one readeth them not in the auncient ſcriptures, the authoritie of the vniuerſall Church is not little, the which hath this cuſtome, that in the prayers of the Prieſtes, which they doe make vnto God at his aulter, the recommendation of the ſoules hath alſo his place. And did 〈…〉 not Monica the Mother of Sainct Auguſtine, require that they ſhould make remembraunce of hir in the ſacrament of the aulter? For that cauſe hath Sainct Gregory written, that the ſoules of the dead are deliuered in ſcure manners and ſorts, either by the oblations of the Prieſtes, Vnde verſus exſiella clerice. & 10. chaneſ. de ſacram. M ſſa, preces, ona, tetunia, quatuor iſta. Abſoluimus animas quas purgans detinet ignis. or by the prayers of the Sainctes: or by the aimes of their friendes: or by the faſtinges of their parents. I doe not thincke, that theſe two learned men, would haue written ſuche thinges, wythout hauinge foundation of the holye Scriptures. And it is not lyke, that the Church hath kept that cuſtome ſo longe time, but that ſhée was well aſſured that it came from the Apoſtles, and afterwardes was augmented and ordayned by Origene, as witneſſeth Iſidore. for from the tyme of Sainct Denis and Tertulian, who were next vnto the Apoſtles, they made prayers, ſacrifyces and oblations for the dead. For Sainct Denis maketh expreſſe mention D rand in rati. diu off. li. 7 Rub de off. mort. Diony. li eccle. hier cap. 7. of the prayer which the Biſhop made for the dead, that God woulde pardon him all that that hée myght haue committed through mans infirmitie, and that he woulde place him in lyght, and in the region and countrey of the liuinge, and in the boſome of Abraham 〈◊〉 and Iacob. It is in lyke manner written in Tertulian wee doe make yéerely one daye •• oblation for the dead. I haue declared vnto thée many witneſſes and of great authoritie. I haue alledged vnto thee the cuſtome of the auncient Church: which is a witneſſe which is worth a thouſande. I haue alledged vnto thée the practiſe of the auncient Doctors. They doe ſufficiently declare, both they haue vſed, and chiefely Sainct Auguſtine: who ••••• feſtly witneſſeth, that the ſame was ordeyned of the authors, 4. ſent. diſt. 45 neque. Sermo de verſ. apo in glo. ſuper illud. 1. Theſſ. 4 Nelumus. which the vniuerſall Church kéepeth, that is no ſay, that for thoſe which are dead in the communion of the body and bloud of Chriſt, when one maketh remembraunce of them in their place, in the ſinne very ſocrifice, that one ought to maye, and make remembraunce, that one doe alſo offer that ſacrifice for them.

Wherefore he ſayth, that we muſt not omit the ſupplication, the which the Church hath taken in charge to doo De cur. pro. mor agere. cap. 4. Quaſt d. dul •• for the ſpirites and ſoules of all the dead, which are departed in the Chriſtian ſociety and company.

Theophilus.

I thinke that thou haſt very ſtrongly dyſplayed and ſet foorth the principall weapons that thou canſt finde for to defende thy quarrell, and that if I haue once ſatiſfied thoſe obiections, I beleeue that the matter ſhall bée ended as ſoone as hée toucheth the witneſſe and authoritie of the auncient fathers. As touching Sainct Denis and the authour of that booke of the celeſtiall and eccleſiaſticall Hieratchies, I haue already The anſvver & ſolution to the obiections. ready tolde thée what it was. For who knoweth not, that that booke of the celeſtiall Hierarchia, is more worthy to be ſome dreamer, then of Sainct Denis the Diſciple Denis Areopagite. Act. 17. g. 34. of Sainct Paul? For it hée had written eyther of the Angels or of the order of the Church, hée had woulde rather haue followed Sainct Paule his Maſter, then the dreames of his owne head: and hée woulde not haue ſpoken of ſuch matters, otherwiſe then hée in his Epiſtles. If thou doe diligently reade that booke of Denis, whatſoeuer it bée, thou ſhalt there finde, that the prayers which are made at the burials are made for thoſe that bée aliue, and not for the dead: And doth confirme that which wée haue already ſpoken off, of the manner whiche the auncientes had to prayſe the dead. Wherefore it ſhoulde not bée néedefull to reiterate that whiche alreadye hath bene opened before, if thou wouldeſt vnderſtande that which one telleth thée: But wee are alwayes to beginne wyth thée. I haue already ſufficiently declared vnto thee, from what originall and beginninge the commemoration which is done for the dead in the Church came firſte, and what hath bene the cuſtome of the auncient fathers, the which was altogether contrary from that whiche is nowe in the Popiſh Church. Wherefore that whiche thouhaſt alledged of Denis and Tertulian doth confirme my matter, as I wyll proue vnto thee by Cyprian, that holy Martyr, who hath read and well vnderderſtanded Cyprian. Tertulian, if euer man dyd vnderſtand him. For hee had him in ſuch reputation that hee dyd call him The prayſe of Tertulian. no otherwyſe but the Maſter thorowe his great excellentneſſe: Inſomuch that when hée woulde reade in hys bookes, he ſayde alwayes, bringe mée the maſter. And the better to declare the pleaſure that hée dyd take in readinge him, and the fruite that one myght therein learne & receiue, they ſaye that hee laide it at nyght when hée went to bed, vnder vys pillolue that hee nyght haue it alwayes ready at hande, when hee woulde occupye and looke in it: as the auncient hiſtoryes doe alſo wytneſſe, that Alexander the great dyd myth the bookes of Homere. For hée giueth vs ſufficiently to vnderſtande that the commemoration and the oblations which are done for the dead, in that auncient Churche, were none other thinges then the prayſes and giuinge of thankes, which the faythfull did render vnto God, for the mercy that he did vnto their bretheren, whome hée hath called from this world: with the other thinges, whiche haue bene already ſpoken off, which are yet done at this daye in ſome places in Almaigne, after the auncien manner. But they doe call commonly the oblation and ſacryfice, the diuine ſeruice, and that which they dyd in theire aſſembles in which they did obſerue chiefly foure things: The firſt was the prophecie and preaching of the worde of God. After the prayers. Afterwards the ſupper, and laſt vvhat doth the ſacrifice ſignifie in the auncient church. of all, the gatherings and almos for the poore. And they did call that oblation and ſacrifice: not that they dyd vnderſtand and meane to offer and ſacrifice: Ieſus Chriſte, as the Prieſts ſay that they doe in their Maſſe. But bicauſe The order of the aſſembles of the auncient church. Act. 2 g. 46 The chriſtian ſacrifices. Rom. 13. a 1 Heb. 13 c. 15 Pſal 50. c. 14. 2. Cor. 8. 2. 4 that the Biſhop and Paſtor of the church, and al the Chriſtian people did come to offer & preſent themſelues vnto god, & did offer vnto hym their oriſons & giuing of thanks, which are y true ſacrifice of praiſe. And their almes in like manner, for to cōfort y poore people of Ieſus Chriſt: They are thoſe which the Apoſtle calleth offerings agreeable vnto God. And they did make cōmemoration of the death & paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt in celebrating the holy ſupper. Wherfore we muſt not thinke, y they did make prayers & offerings for the dead, to the ende they ſhould be deliuered frdi the paines of Purgatory; as hath bene done in our time: But the praiers were the prayſes, and thanks that they rendered vnto God, and exhortations and admonitions which they dyd make by his word vnto thoſe that bée liuinge. The offeringes were of the almes that the faythfull dyd bring, for to ſuccour & helpe the poore which were liuing. And therefore long time amonge the auncientes, Hiſt. tri. li. 6. ca 28. & li. 7. ca. 31. 32. that diuine ſo •• ke that they dyd in their aſſemblies, was called Collectes, that is a gathering, for two cauſes. The firſt bycauſe that the people was ther aſſembled, and gathered into a Communion. The other bicauſe that in thoſe holy aſſembles, they dyd make gatheringes for the poore after the example of the primitiue Church. Behold the name of the Chriſtian aſſemblies, which hath longe contynued amonge the auncientes, before that the name of Maſſe was borne. As it appeareth by the eccleſiaſticall hyſtories, as well by that ſame of Euſebius, as by that which is called Tripertite: As for the name of the Maſſe, it is nowe inough. Although that ſome are yet of opinion, that that name came of the ſame cauſe, wherefore the diuine ſeruice hath alſo bene called Collectes: gatheringes, and that it hath bene called maſſe, bicauſe that in the ſame the offerings were brought, which were there ſent, for to giue them vnto the poore. For Miſſa in Latine, ſignifieth things ſent. And thoſe that are of that opinion, doe thinke that all that which they doe, and bring into thoſe aſſembles, was called Miſſa in the plurall number: of which they haue made Miſſa and Miſſe, in the ſinguler number. And by good right. For then when the offeringes are diſtributed vnto the poore, one maye well call them Miſſa in the plurall number, that is to ſaye, ſent. For they were ſent, and deuided vnto many.

But nowe the Prieſtes doe wronge to call it, Miſſa, in the ſinguler number, that is to ſaye, ſent. For the offeringe is not ſent but vnto them. Wherefore they ſhould haue more reaſon to cal it, kept, then ſent. For they do kepe al for themſelues. They haue wel kept the name of Collect. But in ſtéede of Collect, ſignifieth, amonge the auncyents, all the content of the diuine ſeruice, they do call by that name the prayers and Oremus that they doe ſinge before the Epiſtle, Wherein well appeareth what was the cuſtome of the auncientes: and that the Deacons did make the gathering for the poore: The which thoſe héere doe make for themſelues, and doe ſinge the Epiſtle vnto the Deacons. But for to retourne vnto the prayers for the dead, and for to vnderſtande that that which I ſpeake is true. Marke what Saincte Cyprian wryteth, of one Cypr. li. 4. epiſt. 5. Celerin and his family. called Celerin, who hath had a familie: the which almoſt all ſuffered martyrdome, of whom he hath written after this manner: It is longe a gone, that Celerin was crowned for a Martyr. Item, his vnckle of the fathers ſide, and Laurence his vndle on the mothers ſide, and Ignacius, which ſometime haue fought and bene ſouldiers in the worldly warre, but béeinge the true and ſpirituall ſouldiers of God, hauing ouercome the diuell thorow the profeſſion of Chriſt, haue obtayned of the Lorde the rewardes and crownes, thorowe his glorious paſſion. We doe offer alwayes, as you remember, ſacrifices for them, Sacrifices for the Martirs. as often as wée celebrate the paſſions of the martyres. and that we make commemoration and remembraunce vniuerſally of their dayes. Sith that hée witneſſeth that Laurence and Ignacius haue receyued as béeing victoryous the palmes and and crownes of martyrdome, there is no doubte, but that they are already holden for Saintes and bleſſed: and doe not thinke that they were yet deteyned Auguſt. in epiſt ad Hebr. ca. 12 Extra de cele miſſ. cum Mat. ca. vlt. Sent. 4. diſt. 45. Neque. Gloſan 13. q. 2 caaempus. Imurs. m facit Martirs qui orat pro Martiri in the paines of Purgatorye, and that wée muſt make prayers and ſacrifices for them, that they myght bée deliuered from their ſinnes and paines. The thinge is ſo plaine that none can denye it. For this ſentence is very common and allowed amonge you, and by your Canons: That hée that prayeth for a Martyr, doth wrong and iniurye to the Martyre. For I doubte not, but that in ſucceſſe of time, all thinges will bée come worſe. And aboue all I wyll aduertiſe thée, that thou haſt not proued vnto me that that manner of dooing was ordained by the Apoſtles in the primitiue Church. For ſainct Auguſtine and others, whome thou haſt alledged, doe make mencion that the auncient fathers, haue bene the authours and inuentours of that cuſtome, and that the Church of longe time hath kept it: But they declare not, that Ieſus Chriſt nor his Apoſtles, haue commaunded and ordained it. And although that that Denis which Dyoni. hier eccle. ca. 7. hath written the Hierarchies, maketh onely in one word mencion of the prayer for the dead which are buryed, yet he proueth not by the holy Scripture, that wée ought to doe it: and hée ſpeaketh not one woorde of Purgatorye. But yet that that hée toucheth of the prayer for him whiche one buryeth, is written after a ſorte, that he doth ſufficiently declare that if was a vowe and a deſire that the faithfull had of his health and ſaluation, and a witneſſe that they doe giue, not that the ſame came of an opinion that they had eyther of Purgatory, nor of the paines which the ſoules of the faithfull ſhoulde ſuffer after their departinge from this life. Wherefore their witneſſe ſerueth mée, for to proue, at the leaſtwiſe that ſuche cuſtome is not of the ordainaunce of the Apoſtles, ſith that they cannot bring foorth any other certeine wytneſſe, but that they report it vnto the auncient fathers For by that which hath bene already declared and expreſſed, it is eaſely to know what the commemoration of Martyres haue bene, and of the faithfull that bée dead ſithence the tyme of Tertulian and Cyprian. And doubt not but that that which the auncients haue done, was partlye and principally for to aboliſh the Parentales and other ſuperſtitions which the Gentiles had about the dead, as already hath bene amply declared. For they did thinke that it would be very hard ſo pul them away, if in ſtéed of their cuſtomes, they had not put in ſome other, for ſo content them & for them to muſe and ſtudye oil: As wée maye ſée by that Ad. Aurel. epi. 64. which Sainct Auguſtine hath written, of gluttony and dronkenneſſe which was vſed in his time of the buryalls of the dead and in halowinge the Churchyardes. He ſayth that they cannot bée abolyſhed, if one dooe not forbid that villany by the Scriptures, and that the oblations which they make for the ſoules of the deade vppon theire ſepulchres, bée not ſumptuous, nor of great coſt, and that one ſhoulde giue cheerefully and wythout pride, vnto all thoſe that demaunde it, and that they ſell them not. But if there bée any that will offer anye money, that it bée diſtrubuted preſently vnto the poore. Sainct Auguſtine gyueth ſufficientlye to vnderſtande that the auncientes haue bene conſtrayned to inuent and bring foorth many Ceremonyes in the Churche, for to chaſe and driue awaye the Idolatry and ſuperſtition of the Panims: The which alſo afterwardes were corrupted, as wée may ſée this day by experience, inſomuch that they are more daungerous, then thoſe of the Panims, I thinke that that which hath bene alreadye entreated, of the feaſt of Sainct Peters chaire, the whiche they celebrate in February, agréeth to that very purpoſe whereoff Sainct Auguſtine hath ſpoken.

Hillarius.

It is moſt true, that thoſe auncient fathers would haue driuen away the ſuperſtition by ſuch inuentions, as wée do driue out a pinne with one other pinne. But they were not muche profitable vnto the Church.

Theophilus.

After that manner came the cuſtome to make commemoration of the dead in the eccleſiaſticall aſſembles and in the celebration of the ſupper, ouer and beſide the cauſes before alledged. And afterwardes by little and little, the ſuperſtition hath begun, and is augmented vnto this which we doe now ſée it. We haue no example The beginning of Maſſes for the dead. in all the holy Scripture, that the Apoſtles haue done any thing of this. About the time of Tertulian and of Cyprian, there was no queſtion neither of Purgatory, nor of prayers nor offeringes, for to delyuer the ſoules, but ſuch which wée haue ſéene. About the tyme of Ambroſe and Auguſtine, the ſuperſtition dyd beginne very much to take roote and to increaſe, inſomuch that in ſtéede of ſimple commemorations, giuinge of thanckes, and exhortations, which they made in celebratinge the memory of the dead, they had already begunne to dyſpute, that the prayers dyd profite them: and that the The beginning of Purgatory. queſtion of Purgatorye was alreadye begunne to bée ſturred vp. For it is very eaſie for men, yea, the moſt ſage and wyſeſt, to fall into ſuperſtition, bicauſe that it is naturall vnto vs, and chiefely about the dead, by reaſon of an affection and loue that wée doe beare vnto our parentes and friendes, whome wée cannot forget, although they be abſent from vs, but wée doe abide and continue alwayes affectioned towardes them, as though we might greatly ayde them, yea, many tymes more after they bée dead then before when they were alyue. From thence it commeth that we are ſo much inclined to inuent and receiue euery thing that wee thincke maye ſerue them. And althoughe in déede it ſerueth them to no ende, yet neuertheleſſe wée cannot refraine our ſelues, bycauſe that. wée thinke that wée doe féele comforte and ſatyſfaction to our affection, iudgeinge the affection of the dead, after our owne, our dealinges is fowardes them, as towardes God. What is the originall and begynninge of all Idolatry, but our fooliſhe fantaſſe and affection, by the which wée doe meaſure God, thinkinge that The original & beginning of all Idolatry. hée taketh pleaſure to that that pleaſeth vs? Wherefore wée ſerue him not after his wyll, but after ours. For in makinge feaſtes, in repoſinge our ſelues, béeinge apparayled with goodly robes and gownes, makinge greate chéere, hearinge goodly ſinginges and melodyes, walkinge about and paſſinge the time in goinge a proceſſion, w e thincke that wee doe ſerue God well. But what ſeruice doe w e vnto him? Doe we not rather ſerue our ſelues and our affections, making vnto vs a God altogether like vnto our ſelues, deliting our ſelues in the like vanities? As much is happened vnto vs aboute the dead. Fooliſsh aſſeſtiō towards y dead.

Hillarius.

When a man is angry, yet it doth him much good to reuenge himſelfe vpon ſome one, for to make hym paſſe away his ſorrow and anger, although hée do receiue no great profit. Euen ſo when a man is in ſorrowe and beauines, for the death of his friend, hée muſte haue ſome ſolace and comfort, for to comfort his ſorrow & heauineſſe. And thereoff it came that the woman that loueth well hir huſbande, or the mother, hir childe, oftentymes cannot refrayne to kiſſe them after that they ſhalbe dead, or to embrace them, & ſome time with more greater affection, then euer ſhe dyd during the tyme that he lyued. But wheretoo profiteth all that, eyther to the quick or dead?

Thomas.

Nothing at all.

Hillarius.

And yet neuertheleſſe y doth great good vnto hir that doth it, and ſh e is ſo affectioned.

Theophilus.

Of The originall of Im ges. Sap en. . . b. 15 ſuch affection came in like manner the beginning to make Images, as it ſhewed vnto vs in the booke of wiſdome, yea almoſt the beginning of all Idolatry, as all y auncient Fathers do witnes, eſpecially Lactantius & Euſebius. Lact. de fal. rcl li. a. ca. 13. Euſeb. de pra ena li. 3. ca. 8 For the men for the affection that they did beare vnto the dead to comfort the ſorrow that they had, & to remember them, and beſides to honour them, they made Images, and ſet vppe ſumptuous Sepulcres in their honour. Afterwardes they began to buyld Temples and Chappels hard by their graues, and to ſet therein their Images. Afterwardes in ſucceſſe of time, all was conuerted and chaunged into great ſuperſtition and I olatry. And euen as it begun among the Panims, ſo is it entred among the Chriſtians, The beginning of the Idolatry among the Chriſti is. by occaſion of the Sepulcres of the Martirs. For they haue begunne to make there their Eccleſiaſticall aſſemblies, to go thither to watch, and pray vnto God, and to celebrate the ſupper. Afterwarde they haue builded Chappels and Temples, and haue ordeyned Annuall feaſtes. And after that thoſe foundations were once ſette vppe, which was yet ſome thing tollerable, the thinge was afterwardes peruerted. Inſomuche that in ſtéede of the Candles that they caryed for to watch all the night, they The ardell of a good 〈◊〉 . began to offer them to the Saincts, and to their Images. In ſteede of the prayers y were made vnto god, they haue begun to addreſſe & direct thē vnto them. In ſt ede of yt ſupper 〈◊〉 of S mes. y they celebrated in y name of y death & paſſiō of Ieſus Chriſt, they haue alſo begun to adoe the ememoration of y Saynts & Sayntes: And theroff came yt Commemorantes which is in y Eauen of the Maſſe, in which they doe make Comm morites •• p •• ſſe remēbrance, of ſome Saints & Saint s. And afterwards by little & little, in ſt ede of y ſimple cōmmoration which is done of y Saincts & Sanctes, they haue begun to giue vnto euery one of 〈◊〉 , his Maſſe al whelly, inſomuch y there is neither Saynt nor Sayntes, but hath one, & that they do cal vpon it in ſteed of God, & vnto whom y Prieſts haue not giuen ſome occupacion & office for to helpe & aide God in ſo many affaires. And after y ſathan hath ſo well augmented his ſtuffe, vnder y title of Martyrs, & of their Cēmemorations, to y ende y nothing ſhould remaine, but y it ſhould be ful of dolatry & ſuperſtition, he hath alſo loūd y meanes to make mé muſe after y are dead, after an other manner. For to make them al to be worſhiped as Saincts he could not. Alſo he knew very wel, y after ye damned, men wil not much traualic nor beſtowe any coſt. And therfore he hath ſound a third order.

Hillarius.

There doth lacke but one, but y ther ſhould be as many as of y orders rders of th dead. of ye beggers. But they haue it already. For y Limbe is, for y fourth order.

Theophilus.

Therfore hath he begunne in a luckey howre, ye a ſithens y time of Auguſtin, to forge the Purgatory: although y thē, it was not receiued nor allowed, as an article of faith, but they diſputed only, as of an opinion, which hath ſome colour & ſhew. For although y S. Auguſtin moued y queſtiō, & touched ſome thing y matter, The queſtion of 〈…〉 . yet neuertheleſſe he hath determined or concluded nothing for certein, but rather to y contrary. He hath writtē, y ther were ſome which did thinke that there was a certeine fire of Purgatory, & that the thing was not incredible. But yet neuertheleſſe, he urſt not affirme it, but ſpake of it as of a thing doubtſull and incertein: notwithſtanding that hee •• emeth to bee of an opinion, that the prayers made for the dead, did profit them. But when all ſhal be well conſidered, what witnes or what example doth hee alledge out of the holy Scripture, either of the olde or new teſtament, ſufficient for to proue and confirme that doctrine? I he ſhewe foorth vnto me y cuſtome of the aūcient Church, & the traditions of the Apoſtles, I will demaunde vpon the ſame the witnes or example of the holy ſcripture, or of the primitiue Church. For I am certeine he ſhall not finde it. It is then neceſſary, that we do come to the next age, as was the time of Tertulian, Ireneus and other like: and afterwards from The time of Tertul •• n and Cyprian. thence vnto the ſame of Cyprian. For I haue already proued by their writings, that in thoſe times they did not make ſuch prayers for the dead, as they were after the time of Sainct Auguſtin. For they did them not to the intent to helpe & ſuccour the dead, but they directed them vnto God only, for to giue him prayſe & for to demaund his grace & mercy towards the lyuing: euen as then the Commemorations of the Martyrs w ich were done about their Sepuleres, to the glory of God & conſolation of the liuing, haue b ne conuerted & chaunged to y inuocation of ſaincts, & they haue made Idols of thē, ſo the cōmemoration which is done of other that be dead, hath bene chaunged into meritorious prayers, for to draw thé from paine, & ſucceſſiuely ſithency that one hath learned the cuſtom to make a certein remēbrance & mention in y eccleſiaſtical aſſibles thei came afterward to y point to make y cōmemoration in y ſupper Remembraunce of the de •• in the ſupper. for to witnes y they held thē of whō in y ſame they made remēbrance for true faithful & catholicke, & of y cōmunion of ſaints which in y ſupper is repreſ t d. 〈◊〉 y ſame manner ought we to vnderſtád y which S. Auguſtin hath writté of y remēbrance which they celebrated for y dead, in the ſacrifice of y aulter & of a mediator, by which we ought not to vnderſtād a ſacrifice, in which Ieſus chriſt our only mediator The ſacrifice of the aulter & of a mediator. is offred to god his ather, for y rediption of our ſouls, as he was offred vpō y tr e of y croſſe, & after y manner as y prieſts do glory & boaſt thēſelues at this preſent time to offer in their Maſſe, according to y witnes of their Canon. For there is but one ſuch Sacrifice, the whiche Ieſus hath Heb. 7. d. 17 once offered, which of none other can be done, but of him alone, who is the Prieſſe and euerlaſting biſhop, after the order of Melchizedec, if we wil not be lye the holy Ghoſt, who ſpake by the mouth of the holy Apoſtle.

Thomas.

Of what Sacrifice then doth Sainct Auguſtine ſpeake off?

Theophilus.

Thou oughteſt to vnderſtand 〈◊〉 ſortes of 〈◊〉 The ſacrifice of reconciliation. that there bee two ſortes of Sacrifices, whiche doe comprehend all y other. The firſt is y ſacrifice of reconciliation & redemption, for to deliuer the ſinners from the yre and wrath of God: But this apperteyneth but to Ieſus Chriſt alone, of whom y Leuiticall ſacrifices wer but a ſhadow The ſacrifice of thankes giuing and figure. The other is y ſacrifice of praiſe & thanks giuing, by which we may comprehend al y workes of the faithfull, by which they do prayſe God, and doe trauiale to Auguſt. li. 10. de ciut. Dei. c. . 6 be ioyned vnto him. As Sainct Auguſtine doth expounde it. Now foraſmuche as the ſacrament of the holye ſupper of our Lord, is one of the principall things that the church But ſacrifice the ſupper is. hath, for to glorifie God, rightly it was called by the auncients, ſacrifice, as not long agoe hath bene touched: not by reaſon that Ieſus Chriſte is offred vnto God by vs: But bicauſe that he offreth himſelfe vnto vs, and that thorow faith we receiue it, and render vnto him it, ankes for the greate benefit that he hath done for vs, giuing himſelfe to the death for vs: and we confeſſe and proteſt, that wee doe not take nor holde anye other for a ſauiour then hée onely, nor we accept any mans ſacrifice but his. For that cauſe hath the ſupper in like manner bene called Euchariſtia by the Greeks: The which word ſignifieth giuing of Euchariſ ia. thankes. After the ſame manner haue Sainct Auguſtine and other anncient Doctors of the Churche vnderſtanded it. And they vnderſtand not by the aulter any other thinge The materiall 〈◊〉 of the Church. but the table vpon which y Church hath vſed to celebrate the ſupper, making alluſion vnto the aulters of the auncient law and haue regarde to that ſacrifice of thankes gyung, which in the ſupper is offred vnto god by his church. Behold the eſtate which was in the Church touching that poynt, in the tyme of Sainct Auguſtine, which was about The time of S. Auguſtine foure hundreth yeares after the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt, in which the church dyd begin then very much to degenerate and to be corrupted. For after that one once had begonne to myngle the commemoration of the dead with that of Ieſus Chriſte (for which onely the ſupper is celebrated, not for ſinfull men, who haue not redemed vs by their death) from one opinion and error, it is fallen into another, in ſuche ſorte that men are fallen into ſuch dreaming , that they haue thought that y ſupper, to the which thoſe that were a lyue dyd cōmunicate, dyd profyt the dead, and that they might take it for them, and to their health & ſaluation, after the ſame manner as they dyd the other ſuffrages in theyr name.

Hillarius.

If we will vnderſtand that which ſaint Paul hath wrytten of the Corinthians, which To take the ſupper for y dead. 1. Cor. 15. d. 29 baptiſed themſelues for the dead, after the ſence in which the auncients haue taken it, we ſhould haue no leſſe reaſon to excuſe them, then thoſe here. For if I may take the ſupper for an other man, wherefore may I not in lyke manner be baptiſed for him? I thinke that they will not graunte we that, that one may be baptiſed for an other, and that Baptiſme for the dead. that baptiſme doth profite him, and yet leſſe to the dead then to the lyuing.

Theophilus.

It is well founde out, who haue bene of that opinion, that they may be baptiſed for the dead, which without baptiſme were departed out of Reiſerſperg. de mort. virt ſer. Domi. 3. aduen Tho. 4. diſt. 45 q. 6. this world, & that y baptiſme profiteth them. But the Doctors queſtionaries, and namely. Thomas of Aquin, benyeth it and condempneth that opinion.

Hillarius.

If I may not then be baptiſed for the dead, whereto ſerueth or profiteth the ſupper that I ſhall take for them? For it hath not bene more ordayned for the dead then the baptiſme, but both of them were for the lyuing, aſwell the one as the other, ſith that both of them are Sacraments, giuen vnto the militant Church, and which is yet couered and wrapped in this fleſh.

Theophilus.

There is nothing more certeyne. And yet neuertheleſſe behold how the one of the errors hath drawen the other after him, inſomuch that they haue begun to apply the ſupper, for to comfort the dead, and it ſeemeth that thoſe for whom they do make commemoration, do no leſſe participate, then thoſe which do there communicate in their name. But yet they haue not holden themſelues to t at, but are fallen into another error more importable, altogether to tourne vpſide downe and ouerthrow the inſtitution of the ſupper, and haue defouned it, The ſupper d •• ormed. inſomuche that it ſéemeth nothing at all like to the communion that the Saints haue with Ieſus Chriſt, and amongſt them, but it was altogether like vnto an excommunication. For at the beginning, when that the Chriſtians The originall and beginning of the priuate Maſſes. did begin to communicate at the ſupper for the dead, that was no leſſe permitted to the lay people, and vnto euery one of the chriſtians, as to the miniſters of y church, vntil ſuch time as the ſupper hath takē the name of Maſſe, the which is not ſo auncient, as the Papiſts woulde affirme. The antiquitie of the name of Maſſe. Luſebius. Wilt thou deny that Sainct Iames the Apoſtle, hath not ordeined it and ſonge it, as the decretall witneſſeth?

Theophilus.

It is very nóedefull that a lyer haue a good memory, or otherwiſe he ſhall oft be taken in a trap. How ſhall they which are of diuers opinions among you accord The authors of the Maſſe. De conſ diſt. 1. ca. lacobus. touching that point. For the one ſaith that Sainct Peter did ſing the firſt Maſſe in Antioch. An other the contrary that Saint Iames did ſing it in Hreruſalem. Others would refer it vnto Baſil the great. If they did vnderſtand and meane by the Maſſe the ſupper. I will not altogether gain ſ y them. For I doubt not, but that thoſe there haue truely celebrated the ſupper, following the example of Ieſus Chriſt their maſter: But read all the bookes of the true ſeruants of God, which haue bene ſithens Moſes, vnto the time of Gregory the great (who hath reigned almoſte about ſeuen or eight hunoreth yeres after the death of Ieſus The tyme of Gregory. Chriſt) and afterwards tell mee if euer thou haſt ſound the name of Maſſe: except it be in ſome wicked & corrupted ooke, or that it is falſely mutulod with the name of good auncient Doctors: or if it be at ſome time founde, it is very ſeldome, and in an other ſignification and manner then it is now vſed. But the name is but a ſmall thing, if wee doe accorde in the principall thing. Although it were ſo, that y name of the Maſſe ſhoulde be very auncient, and that it is oftentimes found in the bookes of the auncient Doctors, notwithſtanding it followeth not therefore, that theyr Maſſe was lyke vnto yours at this preſent. For how much might one haue added vnto it, ſithence the tyme of the Apoſtles, if it had bene in the Church, ſith that ye do yet dayly adde vnto it, and ye neuer haue done.

Euſebius.

That ſame is done for the honeſtie and reuerence of the Sacrament and for his ſolempnitie, and moreouer to bewrifie it. And therefore thou deceaueſt thy ſelfe, in that thou thinkeſt, that there is contradiction amongſt vs. For we do not vnderſtande or meane that ſaint Iames, or Saint Peter, or any other to haue inſtituted the Maſſe, then Ieſus Chriſte him ſelfe, the whiche afterwardes his diſciples did beginne to ordeine and bewtyfie it, as wee haue at this preſent, and conſequently the other vntil this preſent hore.

Theophilus.

Sainct Paul was the chiefeſt of the Apoſtles, and yet he came after Sainct Peter & Sainct Iames, but he did not teache or learne the Corinthians ſuche apiſh trickes, when hoe declared vnto them how they ought to celebrate the Lordes ſupper, but doth proteſt, that hee will adde nothinge vnto it nor diminiſhe anye thinge, but that hee will giue it them, in the ſame fourme as hée receyued it of his Maſter Ieſus Chriſte. I doe not boeléeue that Sainct Iames nor Sainct Peter haue done otherwiſe, nor all their compaigmons. And you canne no better confounde your ſelfe, they in excuſinge your ſelfe, as you doe. For at the leaſte wife, by that you doe confeſſe, you doe witneſſe, that you haue not the Maſſe, ſuche as yee haue, neither of Ieſus Chriſte nor of his Apoſtles, nor of the primitiue Churche, but that it is of ſo many diuers poeces, that one can not know the colour of the firſt cloth.

Hillarius.

Thou canſt no better compare it, then to a beggers cloake, to which euery one hath ſet to a péece, which is ſo be garded and patched, that there is not one péece ſéene in that forme and faſhion as it was firſt made. But how can you tell who made it? It is not yet made nor ended. For you doe adde vnto it dayly, and it ſhall not bée ended & perfected at the ende of the world, if other workmen then you doe not put to their handes. Yet neruertheles if thou haddeſt heard, Theophilus, a ſermon that a Curate made vnto his Pariſhyoners, whiche is not very farre from this A ſermon of a Cura. c. place, peraduenture thou wouldeſt ſpeake otherwiſe.

Theophilus.

Hee muſt bring foorth better reaſons, for to make mee to chaunge my ſpeache, then anye coulde bring foorth yet.

Hillarius.

Thou mayſt ſay, that there was neuer a more ſubtiller queſtion alledged in Sorbonne: he exhorted his pariſhioners to offer and paye well their tithes. And the better to ſtirie them forward to doe the ſame, hee proponed vnto them, the example of Abell and Caine, ſaying: A bell hearing Maſſe. Take yee heede you doe not as that curſed Caine did, who would not pay his tithes, nor go to Maſſe: but fellow the good example of Abell, who payd his tythes willingly, and alwayes of the beſt and fayreſt, and hee neuer ſayled to heare Maſſe euery day. If it bee ſo, the Maſſe is more auncient then thou ſayeſt that it is.

Theophilus.

Peraduenture it is with the prieſts as it was with the Aegiptians, The antiquitie of y Aegiptians Eſa. 19. Plat. in Timo. Vad a epiſt. luſt. li 2. who did glory ſomuch of their auntiquitie: and did affirme, that it was tenne thouſand yeares, that they had bene in the worlde. And when they ſayd it, it was not two thouſand yeres, that the world was created.

Hillarius.

It muſt needes be then, that they were before the creation of the world, at the leaſle fiue or ſix thouſand yeres. Peraduenture they were created Arcadins: whome The antiquitie of y Arch diās Ou d. Faſt. 1. the Poets doe write to haue bene horne before the Moone.

Euſebius.

That is not the firſt ſable that thou haſt forged, for to mocke and ieſt at the prieſts.

Hillarius.

I doe aſſure thee, without lying one word, that a Commiſſarie tolde it me, who ſayd vppon his faith, that he himſelfe hath hearde him, béeinge at the Maſſe, in which that Sermon was made at the Laudes tune in the midſt of the ſame, when the Prieſt was come to the Offertorie, and that ſame is not chaunced farre hence. For that partie played his part héere harde by, in the holy popiſh grounde, in which they doe yet ſinge Maſſe. And notwythſtandinge that that Commiſſary dwelleth in that holy grounde, yet neuertheleſſe he was eſtoniſhed of that Sermon, inſomuch, that as he tolde mée, hee went vnto the Prieſt, and ſayde vnto him: I cannot well vnderſtande that example which you haue alledged of Abel and of Caine. For at that time, there were but foure perſons in the worlde. Caine dyd neither ſing, nor heard y Maſſe. Sith thē that Abel heard it, hée could not ſinge and aunſwere, or els they ſhoulde haue bene lyke vnto the Prieſt Martin. It muſt néedes hée then that Adam did ſinge it, and that Eue dyd holde Adam a Prieſt. the Torch, wherby it alſo ſhould follow, that the Prieſts then were maryed.

Theophilus.

His concluſion was not euyll. But I aſſure thée, that if the Prieſts could proue that the Maſſe The antiquitie and inſtitution of mariage. was as auncient as the mariage, and that God himſelfe hath as well commaunded and ordayned it at the beginning of the world, and in the terreſtriall Paradiſe, as Moſes witneſſeth that he hath done of mariage, bee aſſured, that they would make their potage fatte. And if they can in lyke manner ſhewe, that Ieſus Chriſt woulde bée as well founde at a newe Maſſe, as at the mariages.

Hillarius.

They would giue much vpon that condition, and not without cauſe. For they dyd know very well that it woulde bee auaylable vnto them one time in the yeare.

Theophilus.

It is very true. But their principal & chiefeſt profit cōmeth vnto them, bicauſe of the dead. And therefore they would no longer permit & ſuffer, y it ſhould be lawful & common vnto al, as wel lay people as clarks, to exerciſe the office, & to communicate y one for the other, but it is giuen vnto thē alone, as y moſt worthieſt, iudgeing the other thereoff vnworthy. From thence are deſcended the priuate and perticuler maſſes, in which all they Priuate & perticuler Maſſes. alone do ſay that do communicate for the quick and the dead. It ſuffiſed them not, to take the office to communicate for the dead, which wer abſent, but which is more, would alſo make it in the name of y liuing, which are preſent, as though they reiected them, and iudged them excommunicate and vnworthy to communicate at the death & paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt. I demaunde of thée then Euſebius vppon this, where thou haſt euer reade, that the Chriſtians haue vſed a ſupper and ſacrament vicare, I Sacraments vi cars doe call the ſacrament end the ſupper vicare, which thou takeſt for an other alter the imitation of Tertulian, calling vicare baptiſme, the ſame of the Corinthians for the dead. Ter. aduer. Mars. li. 5, & li. de reſu. car. Canſt thou alledge vnto me one onelye example taken from the true ſeruants of God. And that faſhion to celebrate the ſupper perticulerly, is it not a ryght excommunication, Excommunication for communion. The inſtitution of the ſupper. Mat. 26. c. 27 1. Cor. 11. c. 24. Marc. 14. c. 2 Luc. 22. b. 17 and not a communion? For hath our Lorde Ieſus Chriſt inſtituted his ſupper onely for the Prieſts? Would he not that bread, which he diſtributed vnto his Apoſtles, ſhould be diuided and diſtributed vnto his Apoſtles, ſhould be deuided and diſtributed among them? And that all ſhould drinke of that cup and of that wine, which repreſenteth his bloud? Wherefore hath hee commaunded that; but for to giue vs to vnderſtande, that as he gaue his body & his bloud for the health & ſaluation of all men, that he would in lyke manner, that al his elect ſhould be pertakers, & that all ſhould communicate wyth him, in y holy ſupper, & ſhould be fed & refreſhed with his fleſh and his bloud, thorow the vertue of his holy ſpirite? Euen as then Ieſus Chriſt was not onely deliuered vnto death for the Prieſts, but for all the faithfull, both generally and perticulerly, ſo he would not that there ſhould be but the Prieſtes which ſhould be pertakers, but all thoſe for whom and vnto whom, he gaue it. For aſmuch then as he would not onely by the holy predication of the goſpel, but alſo by the ſacramēts, & chiefly by the holy ſupper, féede & refreſh vs with his fleſh & his bloud, & to make vs féele the better the vertue & efficacie, & to confirme our faith & to comfort our conſciences: thou canſt not deny, but that the Prieſts do great wrong vnto the Chriſtian people, to depriue them frō ſuch a ood thing: For aſmuch alſo as they do not admit to their communion the people, they declare y they are of an other cōmunion & relygion then of his, & that they accompt them not for Chriſtians, but for Iewes, Turkes, & Infidels, whom we do reiect & excommunicate from the ſacraments, & from our communion, bicauſe y they are enemies of our religion. Is not that an act altogether repugnant vnto y intention of Ieſus Chriſt, who would that his ſupper ſhould be common & generall to all his people? and thoſe héere do make it perticulerly, Furthermore, wherefore is it called a communion if it be not common vnto all the Chriſtian people, as the name importeth and ſignifieth? of which alſo is taken the name of excommunication, by the which we doe ſignifie the ſeperation Communion & excommunicatign. Mat. 18. c. 17. 1. Cor. 5. d. 11. 2. Cor. 13. a. 1. 1. Tim. 1. d. 19. and reiection of him, who thorow his euil deedes is driuen out from that holy communion, and cut off from the body of the Church, as a rotten member vnworthy to cōmunicate with hir to Ieſus Chriſt, who is y head, according to the ordinaunce that he hath made, and the practiſe of his Apoſtles.

Hillarius.

Theſe are the moſt ſubtilleſt hoſtes, that euer The moſt ſubtilleſt hoſtes in the world. the earth did beare. For they do lay the table cloth, in their Inne, before the people, afterwards, they do drinke vp the wine all alone, in their preſence, and do eate all without participatinge any parte to their compaignions, and doe licke their fingers the whiche they haue wet in the chalice, ſaying: Quia pius es, wyth ſuch an appetite that they do cauſe I deſire vnto women with child. Wherefore I am not abaſhed of y which the Turke ſaid, after y he had ſeene The ſaying of the Turke touching the Popiſh Maſſe the Maſſe celebrated among y chriſtians: that he did think that at the ſacrifice of the Chriſtians, ther was but little charitie, ſith that there was one which did eate and drinke vppe all, wythout gyuinge parte vnto others whiche ſtoode by. But what woulde hée haue ſayde, if hee had knowen that after that that good hoaſte hadde laide his cloth and put his ſoppe in the wine, and banketted all alone, hée cauſed them to pay the ſhot that haue taſted nothing at all of it, but did onely beholde it a farre off, not daring to approch or come neere the table?

Euſebius.

You take all in the worſt part you can. Although that the Prieſt, which celebrateth the Maſſe, doth communicate all alone really and ſacramentallye, it followeth not therefore, but that all the aſſiſtentes do perticipate To communicate ſacramentally & ſpritually. by fayth and ſpiritually, as wel as the Prieſt which ſingeth the Maſſe. But that is done, for the dignitie and reuerence of the Sacrament. For if it were ſo common and frequented and vſed to all men, they woulde make none accompt of it. And although that the common people doe not communicate euery day wyth the Prieſt, yet neuertheleſſe the lay people haue their dayes, for to communicate and celebrate the ſupper when they require it, and chiefly on the feaſtiuall and ſolempne dayes, in which they doe receiue the bodye of Ieſus Chriſt ſacramentally.

Theophilus.

If it doe profite as much him which doth not communicate really the Sacrament, as him which doth communicate ſo that he haue fayth, as well as the communicant, to what ende then ſerueth to goe to the ſupper? And wherefore hath Ieſus Chriſt ſayd: deuyde this bread among you, and drincke yée all of this cuppe? wee ſhall then néede no more if wee wyll not take the ſupper really: But that the father may ſend his ſonne: the huſbande hys wyfe: the maſter his ſeruaunt, which may communicate for them, and they wythout mouing or wagginge themſelues, ſhall communicate ſpyrytuallye by fayth, ſo that the intention and deuotion bée ſuch in them. I am not ignoraunt but that the true communication is ſpirituall and thorowe fayth, wythout which the outwarde bringeth more domage then lproſite. But doſte thou thincke that Ieſus Chriſt hath inſtituted the ſigne and the extericure Cermonye of he Sacrament wyll, out cauſe? and that he woulde not but that wee our ſelues ſhoulde communicate, excepte wée haue ſome lawfull let, which draweth vs backe, as ſickeneſſe, impriſonment, faulte of minſtringe it, or other like doubt, which procéedeth not of our fault, of infidelitie or diſpiſinge it? Truelye I wyll not denie but that in ſuch a caſe, thoſe which cannot bée preſent at the ſuppen, ſhould haue iuſt excuſe, and that they doe communicate ſpiritually with Ieſus Chriſt. But I demaund of thée. Euſebius, if thou wouldeſt bée content, that an other ſhoulde dine for thée and if in faſting thou ſhalt be refreſhed with the meate that an other ſhal haue eaten?

Thomas.

As for my ſelfe I wil not agrée vnto it. For that is no place in which he muſt haue a lieuetenant and vicare. I bad rather haue him in all other thinges then A vicare at the table. in the table.

Theophilus.

If you would not in coryorall thinges, wherefore will you accept it in ſpirituall thinges & can I The vicare of ſayth. liue of your ſoule, or you o mine?

Thomas.

No.

Theophilus.

Nowe for aſmuch as the fayth is the life of the ſoule, it muſt be that euery one doe lyue of his owne, and wée muſt not ſay I beléeue: as my maybe beléeueth. But it muſt bée that I my ſelfe doe beléeue, and that I Abac. 2. a. 4 Rom 1. b. 1 Gala. 3. b. 11 doe knowe and vnderſtande that which I beleeue. Furthermore, ſith that the woorde of God, the preachinge of the Goſpell, the adminiſtration of the sacramentes are meanes by which God nouriſheth, keepeth, augement th, and confirmeth the fatith in vs, as the lyfe, the body, by the meanes of bread, and other meates, wée ought to vnderſtande, that as there is no man that can take foode and nouriſhment for mée, if I my ſelfe doe not take it, ſo cannot hée heare the Goſpell, nor receyue the Sacraments, for mee: But it is neceſſary that I doe them my ſelfe in proper perſon. If I wyll haue the profite, yea, thoughe I were an Emperour. Nowe if tho liuinge cannot doe it for the liuing, what can they doe for the dead? In lyke The ſupper for the common people. manner, as touchinge the generall ſupper which is made amonge all the people, howe doe the Prieſtes handle yorſ? It was not inoughe for them to haue vſurped the Sacrament for them alone, a great tyme, but that they muſt yet defrande you of the moytie, the ſame daies that The moytie of the ſupper taken avvay from the people you would communicate. For they doe not gyue you to drinke of that ſame wine the which they doe drinke, but haue eſtablyſhed and concluded, by theire counſells that it ſufficeth the laye people to communicate vnder one kinde onely, that is to ſaye, of the bread: and that there ſhould bée none but they, whiche ſhoulde communicate vnder both kindes of the bread and wine. And the ſame The Councel of Conſtance & of Baſile. was determined in the counſell of Conſtance, holden in the yeare 1415. the xb, daye of Iune, in the 13. Seſſions agaynſt the authoritie not onelye of the worde of God, but of all the aucinet Doctors, and alſo of their decrées and Canons. Wherefore it is eaſely to iudge of what ſpirite thoſe were lead that were ther aſſiſting, and which haue made ſuch determination, & haue iudged Iohn Hus and Hierome of Prague to bee burned, who vphelde the doctrine of the auncient Church. At the leaſt they could not deuye but that they were conſtrayned to condempne eyther that counſell, or the ſame of Baſle, whiche afterwardes ordayned that it was permitted to the Bobemians to communciate vnder doth kindes: the which was obteined by great diſputation, as the Chronicles doe witneſſe and the Epiſtles written of that matter. But there is no doubte, but that the ſame of Baſle is therein more agreeing to the auncient doctrine. It is meruayle that they doe forbid the cup vnto the laye people, and theire owne canons in ſome places do iudge thoſe for ſacriledgers & excommunicate, which do take it but in one kinde, & doe not take y cup, as it it is eaſely to ſee, de coſi diſt. 2. in many Canone.

Thomas.

But there is great difference betwéene that that you drinke & theris, For they thinke y theirs is no more wine, but that it is changed into y bloud of Ieſus Chriſt, Tranſubſtantiition. thorow the vertue of their conſecration. But they do accompt and take yours, but for wine, bicauſe that it was conſecrated.

Hillarius.

They giue it you but for to rinſe & waſh the téeth: if peraduēture there do ſtick any of the fleſh which they haue giuen you to eate. For according to the witneſſe which Humbert Cardinall, a Rorguignon hath rehearſed in the honorable recantatiō that he made The honourable recantation of Berengarius De con. diſt. 2 Lgo Berengarius. for Berengarius, conteyning the fayth of Pope Nicholas, the which they haue cauſed him to rehearſe and recite, wée muſt beleeue, that the body of Ieſus Chriſt, is there taken with the mouth of the faythfull, and chewed & bruſed with the téeth. It is moſte certeine, that their wine is no more bloud, then yours. But yer ſeeing the opinion that they haue, and that they doe eſtéeme it more precious, they doe you iniurye, to depriue you of it.

Theophilus.

I doe meruaile? how they dare depriue the people from the cup, more then from the bread, ſith that Ieſus Chriſt hath ſayd expreſly, take yee, and drinke ye al. But ther is no doubt, y the priuate & perticuler Mat 26. c. 27. Marc. 14. c. 22. Luc. 22. b. 19 maſſes, haue ingendred this error. For euen as ye Prieſts haue vſurpled the office to celebrate y ſupper for others, to make their dignitie to be of more value, ſo they would make theirs to differ frō y ſame of others, & to take y both kinds for themſelues, & leaue onely but one vnto y pleople, to y end they do eſtme, y the maſſe & ſupper, which ye prieſt celebrateth, were more worthy & of more greater merite, then y other faithful, & that it bringeth vnto thē more gaine. For after that the people were perſwaded in y opinion, euery one did ſet thē aworke, as workmen hired by daies for to ſing, both for the quick & for the dead: whereof they receiued great gaine, of which we do yet at this day ſee y great riches & treaſures of ye Monks of ye order of S. Bener, & of Cluny, who by y other mōkiſh orders haue followed The Conuent of Monkes. which haue ben hatched, engibred & brought vp of that came hen. Now whē they did perceiue y their gaine wared very great, they haue alwayes better magnified their oorke, and went v to it wyth ſuch a feruent yeale and affection, that there was a Prieſt which woulde ſinge three or foure Maſſes in one daye, ſo that they woulde giue him money: i ſuch ſort that there was in no Fayre whatſoeuer it were & any merchaundiſe more frequented and vſed then this heers in their ſhoppe. Wherefore Multitude of Maſſes for hidde De con diſt. 1. ca. ſufficit. the Popes were conſtrayned to forbidde, that no Prieſt ſhoulde ſinge any more then one Maſſe in one daye, wythout diſpenſation, except in the ſenſ of Chriſtmas: And they attributed that ordinaunce vnto Pope Alexander, who inuented the holy water? It was in lyke manner decréede that none ſhoulde take vpon hym to celebrate, but that there ſhoulde bée at the leaſt two What company ought to haue the Maſſe De con. diſt. 1. ca. Hoc. quo que for to heare it. And they doe adde the reaſon, ſayinge: If there bee not two at the leaſt, howe can the Prieſt ſaye, Dominus vobiſeum: The Lord bée with you? O rate pro me fratres: Bretheren pray for me?

Hillarius.

They muſt ſaye: Dominus tecum: as the Angell Gabriel did.

Theophilus.

Doe yée not beholde a goodly Philoſophy? Although that I doe thinke, that they haue alſo regarde, that the maſſe ought to keepe and holde ſome ſhew of the communion, the which could not haue any greate ſhewe or coulour, excepte there bée two or thrée at the leaſt with the Prieſt. For that cauſe I thinke, that they haue in like manner taken the cuſtome, to breake their heaſt in thrée péeces, bicauſe that it is written, that Ieſus Chriſt did breake the bread, and gaue it vnto his Diſciples. Then for to repreſent in their perticuler ſupper, that Mat. 16. c. 27 Marc 14. c. 2 Luc. 22. b. 19 The breaking of the hoaſt. fraction & diſtribution of the bread: which cannot be done vnto one alone, they do yet kepe y faſhion to break it after the example of Ieſus Chriſt. But bicauſe that they alone do eate it vp all without diſtributing it vnto others, yet they would neuertheleſſe counterfaite the example of Ieſus Chriſt, giuing to vnderſtand that they doe take the partes whiche they doe make, in ſteede of them, in whoſe name they are made, & for whoſe intent they ſing them. And the Maſter of the ſentences and alſo Gratian, doe De con. diſt 2. ca. riform Sergius. 2. O porci. Plat. make the author of that law and ordinaunce Sergius. 2. Who before y he was pope, was called: hoggs ſnowt. But bicauſe that that name ſéemed to him vile, hee cauſed it to bee chaunged into this ſame: ſithens whiche, the cuſtome continued among the Popes, that when they are choſen into that office, they doe chaunge all their names. All that The names of the Popes changed. was done about y yere of our Lord. 742. after the death of Charlemaine. The Doctors which came afterwardes doe tell the reaſon, wherefore that diuiſion of the hoaſt is deuided in thrée parts: And ſay, that that whiche is put and Bonauent. li. 4. diſt. 12. Hilbert, in eleg de Eucha iſtiu. caſt into the Chalice, and made wette in Wine, is offred for the healthe and ſaluation of the liuing. The other two dry parts are for the dead, the one for the prayſe of thoſe which are now in Paradiſe. The other for thoſe whiche are in the paines of Purgatory, for to deliuer them. Although that, there are others whiche doe attribute the wetting in the Wine, vnto the bleſſed, whiche are now in Paradiſe. But I am now abaſhed of thoſe whiche haue founde out that manner to wette and moyſten the bread with the wine, that they haue no regarde to their Canons which do rebuke & condempne very ſharpely ſome whiche had that euil cuſtome to wette the bread with the wine, and chiefely ſome Aegiptian Churchés. But they haue made it no conſeyence to doe that whiche their aunceſtors haue forbidden and condempned to others. For all thinge is permitted vnto them. Although that the Prieſt doeth make the ſupper all alone for all the Saynts & Sayntes in Paradiſe, and for all the quicke and the de d. And for that cauſe was put into the ſupper, the Memento of the The memento of the quicke & of the dead dead, in the Canon of the Maſſe, with that of the lyuing, the which yet neuertheleſſe one cannot finde in the auncient Miſſels of the Romiſh Maſſe, written by hand: Wherfore it is moſte li •• ſt, that it hath bene at ded ſoo af rwardes, by thoſe whiche haue applyed the merit of the Maſſe vnto th dead. But they haue done yet worſe, for where the ſupper ought to bee a Comaieinoration of the cath and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt, and a ſacrifice of praiſe, or to receyue Ieſus Chriſt, not for to offer him vp, ther The ſ pper a 〈◊〉 of re ••• tion. haue made a ſacrifice of reconciliation, for to offer vp Ieſus Chriſt vnto God his father, for the redemption and ſaluation of the ſoules, aſwell of the deade as of the lyuing, which counteruayleth aſmuch in reſolution as ſo deny altogether the Sacrifice of the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt. For aſmuch then as y ſupper, which ought to be common vnto all the faithfull, was conuerted & chaunged into perticuler Maſſes, & that ſo manye falſe opinion haue bene adioyned vnto it, the better to elcuate his authoritie and dignitie and the Prieſts which ſing it, the vſe of the true ſupper of Ieſus Chriſte hath bene almoſt altogether aboliſhed, and is ſo greatly diſpiſed, that almoſt none maketh any accompt of it. For euen as the Prieſtes The diſpiſing & contemning of the ſupper. did runne after their Maſſes, bicauſe of the gaine, the people on the otherſide, did follow them bicauſe of the opinion that they had of their dignitie. And did make no great accompt of the commen ſupper, but they referred themſelues altogether vnto the Maſſes of y prieſts, inſomuch that there were but a few, to whom they did eſteeme to communicate: But did giue the charge vnto the Prieſts King Levves. to do that for them. Wherefore King Lewes the ſonne of Charles, ſeeing the people to communicate ſo rare & ſeldome in compariſon to the auncient Church, was compelled to make Lawes and Statutes, that the laye people, ſhould at the leaſt, communicate at the ſupper three times Statutes for the communion. in the yere: The which law Anſegiſus hath put in wryting, and it was done in the yeare of our Lord yght hundroth Auſegiſus. li. 2. Ca 38 Fabtan. De con. diſt. 2. & h . Concilium Aga th ſe & lib •• t. De cen. diſt. 2. 〈…〉 . and fifteene. The which neuertheleſſe hath not bene yet obſerued, bicauſe of the great eſtimacion that they had of the perticuler maſſes. For notwithſtanding that Pope Fabian and the Councell Agathian and Ehbertin, had decreed that y lay people which receiu d not the Euchatiſte? at the leaſt, at Eaſter, Whitſoutide & Chriſtmes ſhoulde not be compted for catholickes, yet neuertheleſſe the ſupper is ſo greatly diſpiſed that the lay p ople muſte be compelled and conſtrayned by commaundings from the Emperour, Concil. Latera at the Councell of Lateran, to communicate at the leaſt once in ye yere at Eaſter, for to keepe the olde cuſtome of the auncient Churche, which then was very much corrupted, as one may in like manner iudge by the generall Councell of Pope Innocentius, and by the Canon of The councell of Pope Innocent. Clement the third, whiche was made about a thouſande two hundreth yeres after the natiuitie of Ieſus Chriſt: De pen. & remiſſ. omnis v 〈◊〉 Albert. li. de miſſae myſt. Although that Albert alledgeth other reaſons, but thoſe haue bene the cauſes. Behold how the Chriſtians haue bene led, and into what pit and depthe the Commemoration of the quicke and of the dead in the ſupper, hath drawen them. There remained none but the Greekes, which The conſlareie of the Greekes. haue kept it well, and which haue kept néereſt and moſte conſtantly by y auncient cuſtome of the Apoſtles. For yet at this day they doe not allow the perticuler Maſſe, and they take not y Euchariſte but with company, & that the miniſter doth diſtribute it to the people. And this is very cléere and plaine vnto the Churches, which they haue agreat nomber of thē, vnder the ſeigniory of the Venitians. Alſo they coulde not ſuffer that one ſhoulde depriue them of the Cuppe or Chalice, the whiche is one of the partes of the Sacrament, but doe kéepe ſtill that communion, as it was vnder both kindes, from the time of the Apoſtles themſelues in the Latin Churches, in Africa and Europa, untill the time of Fredericke the firſt. Euen ſo haue they done in the article of Purgatory, Purgatory reteſted of the Greekes the whiche they woulde neuer agrée vnto, although that it was receiued and allowed by the church of Rome.

Euſebius.

But although they haue reſiſted it of long time, were they not in the ende conſtrayned to allow and acknowledge it, and to ab ure their error and hereſie, at the councell of Florence, conſenting with the Romiſh The Counſell of Florence. Churche?

Theophilus.

Thou haſt ſayd very well, conſtrayned. For that Romiſh tyraunt neuer ceaſeth vntyll hee hath ſeduced and brought ſubiecte vnto him all other Churches, either thorow crafte and ſubtiltye, or els by force & violence. Yet neuertheleſſe, before that the Greekes conſented vnto him, how long time haue they reſiſted? And afterwards, what are thoſe that haue conſented and after what ſort? whether that the Purgatory ſuch as they haue preached vnto us vntill this preſent time, was founded and binlved vpon the holy ſcriptures, and worthy to bee holden and taken for an article of the faith, as they haue conſtrayned vs, it followeth that all the Greekes and all their Churches ſhould haue bene heretickes vntill the yeare of our Lorde a thouſand foure hundreth thirty and nine, that ye Councel was holden. But how and by whom was it celebrated? were there not then Sciſines & Antipopes in the Church? For ſome of them did draw & gather Sciſmes & Antipopes. Plat. in vita. Eng. li. concil. The Counſell of Buſle. Pope Martin. Sigismond Emperour. themſelues towards Almaigne and aſſembled themſelues at Baſle at the Councel begun by Pope Martin, the predeceſſor to Eugenius, at which was the Emperour Sigiſmond with the Princes of Spaine, Almaigne, Pannonia and Fraunce. Others aſſembled and gathered themſelues together and went to the Councell of Ferrara, which afterwards was tranſported to Florence, bicauſe of the plague The Counſell of Ferrora. Plague. Pope Engenius which was ſo cruell and terrible at Ferrara, that all were very much afrayd, chiefely the Greekes, which trembled with feare. Wherfore Pope Engenius, who ruled at that Councell was conſtrained to tranſport and remoue it to an other place, and to ende it at Florence. Yet neuertheles, foraſmuch as the Greekes were ſo long time holden and kept in the doctrine of the auncient Church, they ſhoulde not haue loſt much, to haue perſeuered and continued ſtil in it. And if they had well marked their caſe, God gaue them warning ynough and aduertiſements that hee tooke no great pleaſure in that that they did take in hand, ſith that hée aſſayled them with that great horrible plague. On the otherſide, they might well iudge how well they coulde agree with the komiſh Churche, the whiche was deuided within it ſelfe, and at diſcorde in the houſe. For Pope Eugenius held his Councel at Ferrara & at Florence, and would not be aſſiſtant to that at Baſle, in whiche the Emperour was preſent. On the cōtrary, thoſe which were aſſembled at the Councel of Baſle, would not acknowledge Eugenius for to be Pope, but did chooſe an other, to witte, Ayme Duke of Sauoy, who as then led an Hermits life A yme Duke of Sanoy. Ripailles at Ripailles, but after an other ſorte then the auncient Hermits in times paſt. For his Hermitage was a goodly and pleaſaunt Caſtle, in a moſte pleaſaunt place, harde by Thonon, as it appeareth yet at this day. After his election Pope Felix. be was called Felix, were not all theſe things proper and fit for to giue a faire ſhew vnto thoſe Councels? And Purgotory receyned by the Greekes. that ſame of Florence in which the concluſion and agreement of Purgatorye, was made with the Greekes, ought it not greatly to bee eſteemed, for to haue an Eugenius for their Preſident which hath moued all Italy and al Chriſtendome to war? And how ſhall the Greekes that were ſent be acquited and diſcharged of their office?

Hillarius.

They haue betrayed both their countreis & their Churches, as they haue well declared by the dignities and offices which they haue receiued of the Pope.

Theophilus.

Therefore hath hée ſo well recompenſed them. For he hath made Rutenus and Nicenus Cardmals Rutenus. Nicenus which were the chiefe: with Beſſarion who was alſo a Cardinall and Patriarke of Conſtantinoble. If they had faithfully defended the trueth, the Pope woulde not haue Beiſation choſen them vnto ſuch honors.

Hillarius.

Hee might as wel make thē Cardinals in ſuch Roſſenſis ſorte, as Roſſenſis was in England: or after the ſort as the Tyrants haue giuen the red hatte vnto the Martirs.

Theophilus.

Although that he hath done that, the better to keepe by that meanes the Greekes ſubiect and bounce vnto him and to his dectrine, yet neuertheles he hath not yet ſo well practiſed it nor bounde them, but that they were by and by reuolted and truned vnto their firſt manners, and that they had abandoned & forſaken the Popiſh faith, the whiche before they were ignorant off.

Hillarius.

Yet they ſhould not haue loſt muche, if they had neuer learned any thing at all. But I am not muche abaſhed though Beſſarion hath eaſelye conſented vnto the papiſticall Purgatory. For hee was a great Platoniſt, and I beeleeue that hee was more exerciſed in the Philoſophy of Plato, then in the true Theology of heauē ly letter. Where ore it is no meruaile, if hee haue eaſely allowed Purgatory, the which he hath already learned of his maſter Plato.

Theophilus.

Thou mayſt now vnderſtand Euſebius how the Churche is fallen from degree to degree, ſithens the time of the Apoſtles, vntil the ſame of l ertulian, afterwards of Cyprian, afterwards of Auguſtin and from him vnto Gregory, and conſequently vnto our time: and how the ſuperſtition is ſo increaſed and augmented, that by the meanes of the Purgatory and of the Maſſe the merite of the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt was altogether aboliſhed. You muſt not then compare the time preſent & the eſtate of your Churches, vnto the ſame of S. Auguſtin. For there is to much difference betweene them. It is •• euill lykelyhood, that the thing in thoſe dayes was ſomuch aduaunced. And doubt not, that if y holy man had thought, that it would haue fallen out ſo, but that he would haue reſiſted it more ſtrongly then wee doe at this day. For hee could not haue ſuffred, that the grace of Ieſus Chriſt, of which he was ſo greate a defender againſt the Pelagians, ſhould haue bene ſo altogether deſtroyed. But the good man was ouercome, bicauſe that then, the puritie of the doctrine of ye goſpel & the eſtate of the church was already very much decayed & corrupted, as we may eaſely iudge, by that whiche Sainct Hierome witneſſeth of the life of Malchus. For he was not aſhamed to write that the time The VVitneſſe VVhich Saint H ereme ytueth cllus time. and age in which hee liued, and Sainct Auguſtin in lyhe manner, who was of the ſame time, was but filthyneſſe & ſtinking in compariſon of the ſame of ye Apoſtles. Thou haſt alreadie heard the plaint ye Sainct Auguſtin made of mans traditions, with which the Church was ouercharged. 〈◊〉 lanua 1. 9. Amongſt which he touched the Iewiſhnes and ſuperſtion whiche was yet kept in Africa. We muſt not then be abaſhed, if in thoſe dayes, there came vp new opinions, touching the eſtate of the dead, the whiche the auncient Churche was ignorant off. Wee muſt not in like manner meruaile although ſome greate learned men haue bene wrapt in them. For it happeneth commonlye, that when men haue dreamed and inuented ſome new opinion, they will alſo induce others, and are angry againſt thoſe that doe reſiſt them, inſomuch that they will condempne them, and if they bee the moſte wiſeſt and of greateſt countenaunce, they cary away the matter. After that ſorte was Aerius condempned, chifely bicauſe he ſaide, that it was Aertus. not néedeful to pray nor to offer for the dead. It happened to him as it did to Vigilantius, Againſt whome Sainct Hierom againſt Vigtlantius. Hierome hath writen ſo outragiouſly, bicauſe that hee allowed not, but rebuked the watchings whiche they made about the Sepulcres of the Martyrs, bicauſe that he knew already the ſuperſtition which would follow. S. Hierome was a great learned man, but yet neuertheleſſe a childe might iudge that hée did great wrong vnto Vigilantius, and that hée ſhewed himſelfe to bee too much a man, and more ſuperſtitious then hee ought to bée For at this preſent, ye time declared vnto vs, that the reaſon of Vigilantius was a great deale better then that of Hierome: & the abuſes and Idolatries whiche haue followed that cuſtome that Hierome hath mainteined, doe mamſeſtlye declare, that then Antechriſte aduaunced the ſecret of iniquitye, to whome Hierome obeyed, without takinge anye heede. Nowe lette vs thinke, that ſoraſmuche as ſuche a manue as hée was, dyd defende ſo ſharpelye mans tradytions and childithe ſuperſhtious, what authorytye canne the little ones haue, whiche doe put themſelues againſte it or withſtande The opinion that Styne Auguſt in had of Pingarory. it? and what ſhall the pore people doe? Then when Sainct Auguſtin did beginne to write, hee did then finde owers opinions of the ſuff nges and prayers for the dead, among thoſe of the Church or the Doctors of the Church, and the queſtion of Purgatory ſtirred vp and moued, the which hee alſo hath ſifted and fanned. He then perceiuing the opinions and reaſons of others, which were not without appearance of wiſedome and holines (whiche are the titles which the Apoſtle attributeh vnto mans trabitions) Collo. 2. 3. 3. was ſomwhat troubled and moued, and burſt not altogether condempne them. That was the cauſe wherefore he ſpake of that matter after diuers ſortes & doubtfully, and that he ſeemeth ſome time to ſpeake againſt himſelfe. When hee had no regarde but to the pure worde of God, hee hath well ſpoken, as I will make it by and by appeare. But when hee had regard vnto the opinions and reaſons of others and grounded himſelf vpon mans Phyloſophy, more then vppon the certeine worde of God, hee founde himſelfe ſometime in great perplerity and doubt, and hath followed ſometime more his humaine reaſon, then the verity of God reuealed vnto him. For when all ſhall be well conſidered, where in differeth that difference that hee putteth betweene the eſtates of the dead from the Li. deſ ••• & oper. ca. 16. Addul •• . q. 1 in Enchir. ca 68. 69 De ciui. deili. 21. ca. 26. doctrine of Plato? Furthermore, do wee not ſee, that when he ſpeaketh of the fire of Purgatory, for the other life, that he ſpeaketh alwayes as bucerteine, and as of an opinion probable and like to bee true, the which he dareth not certeinly allow nor diſalow: But ſaith that one may diſpute of that queſtion and alwayes leaue it in ſuſpenſe. Nowe who would thinke it like be true, that that holy man, beeing a great keper & an obſeruer of the eccleſiaſtical & catholicke doctrine, would haue ſo ſpoken and written of that matter, if in his time that doctrine of Purgatorye, had bene receiued and allowed of the Churche for certeine and ſure, in that ſorte that thoſe whiche at this Tho. in 4. diſt. 21. Autho. 1. Par. 〈…〉 . 10. Cap 2. preſent doe receiue ſo great gaine woulde condcmpne as Her tickes not onely thoſe that doe ſay the contrary, but alſo all thoſe whiche beleeue it not to be an article of faith neceſſary vnto ſaluation. How could hee call into doubt an article of faith authoriſed and confirmed by the Churche? nowe wee cannot denye, but that the doctrine of our faith is alwayes one, eternall, and like vnto it ſelfe, and The doctrine of the Apoſtles perfect. that the Apoſtles haue ſo taught and inſtructed the Churches, that they haue not hyd from them any thinge neceſſary vnto their ſaluation, which ought not afterwardes to bee reuealed, and chiefely that which toucheth the offices of loue and charitie, without which we are nothing towardes God. There is yet an other point, that is, that Ra . diui. off. li. 7. 3. q. 7. in grauib. 24. q. 1. od . 1. de ponderet extra de renun Niſi. 5. 1. he himſelfe is not of the opinion, that the prayers and ofteringes of the wicked, may bee agreeable to God. To the which opinion the papiſticall Doctors dare verye well ſpeake agaynſt, and affirme that it ought not to be holden, but that it is too harde and rigorous (notwithſtanding ye hee alloweth it by the holy Scriptures) bicauſe that it depriueth the deade from mercye and from ſo manye goodly prayers and ſuffrages, and woulde cauſe the charytie of thoſe that bee aliue to ware colde towardes them.

Hillarius.

I am not abaſhed. For they ſhoulde loſe much, if none ſhoulde offer vnto them but good men? It is vnto them, to whome ye ſentence is to hard, not vnto the dead.

Theophilus.

If they bee ſo bolde to reproue the ſentence of the auncient Doctors, when it is not fit for their purpoſe, although that it bee confirmable vnto the Scripture, wherefore may not wee reiect it, when it ſhall be contrary vnto it? As touchinge that which thou haſt in lyke manner declared, of his mother Monica, requyring Monica. that they ſhould make remembraunce of hir, in the celebration of the Sacrament, it maketh no greate matter. That was the affection of a woman, as that which ſhee had to bee buryed hard by hir huſbande. For there is no doubt, that the affe •• ion that wee haue towardes Li. confeſſ. 9 c . 11. the dead, maketh that wee alſo deſire, that others ſhould haue the lyke affection towardes vs. nd wee muſt not bee baſhed, if ſuch humame affections, doe reigne ſometimes in vs. For wee our ſelues doe ſee, that thoſe holy The affection of the women that follovved Ieſus woemen, which followed Ieſus Chriſte, from Galile, vntill he was buryed, willinge to anointe him in his ſepulchre, dyd not thinke of his reſurrection, but did thinke to haue founde him dead: as the Angells rebuked them, Luc. 24. a. 5. Mat. 18. 2. 1. Marc. 16. b. 6. Iolus. 10. 11. ſaying: why ſeeke yee the liuinge amonge the dead?

There is no doubte, but that there was yet in them humayne affection towardes the bodye of Ieſus Chriſte, as wee haue towardes the dead: But to the ende that wee maye haue no more neede to diſpute muche of it, wylt thou bee contented if I doe alledge vnto thee Auguſtine, agaynſte Auguſtine? To whome haddeſt thou rather ſtaye, eyther vppon Saincte Auguſtine, followinge the opinion of men wythout the Scripture, and ſpeakinge doubtfullye as vncerteyne, or vnto hym and other auncient Doctours, wyth the holy Scripture.

Euſebius.

I doe not thincke, that Sainct Auguſtine would ſpeake againſt himſelfe, nor ye he hath bene contrary vnto the holy Scripture, nor to the auncient Doctors.

Theophilus.

Thou canſt not ſhewe vnto mee that hee hath affirmed the Purgatorye certeynlye: But I will declare vnto thee places by the whiche hee hath altogether abolyſhed it. Marke howe hee hath put none other Purgatorye, then the bloude of Ieſus Chriſte, hee The vvitnes of Saint Auguſture againſt purgatory of the Pope. De ciui. det. li. 10 . 1. 24. The true Pargatory. De c •• . Dei. li 10. ca. 22. ſayth, ſpeakinge of Porphyras a Platoniſt, that hee hath not knowen Ieſus Chriſte to bee the begynninge, thorowe whoſe incarnation wee are purged. For hee ſhoulde haue then acknowledged a Purgatorye. And in an other place, hee ſayth: Wee haue then the bictorye, in his name which hath taken mannes fleſhe, and hath liued without ſinne, to the ende that by hym beei ge the Prieſt and the ſacrifice, we are made the remyſſion of ſinnes. That is to ſaye, thorowe the medyatour of God and men, the man Ieſus Chriſte, who in hys owne perſon hath purged our ſinnes, and reſtored be agayne vnto God. For men are not ſeperated from God, 1. Timo. 2. . 5. lieb. 1. 2. 3. but thorowe ſinne, for which it lyeth not in vs thorowe our owne power and ſtrength to purge them in this lyfe, but therow the mercy God, thorow his clemeney, not thorowe our power. For that vertue whiche is called ours, whatſoeuer it bee, it is graunted vnto vs thorowe his goodneſſe. Doth hee not cleerelye ſhewe, that the purgation of ſinnes is done in this lyfe, and yet not thorowe our owne righteouſneſſe nor vertue? Holve can it then bee done in the other lyfe, thorowe the vertue and merytes of an other & Furthermore, hee manyfeſtly ſayth: the ſoules of the good men after they are De eiui. Dei. li. 13. ca. 9 ſeperated from the body, are at reſt, and wee muſte not doubt of it: but thoſe of the wicked, are puniſhed vntyll ſuch time, as the bodyes of thoſe doe ryſe againe to eternall lyfe: and of theſe heere, to eternall death, whiche is called the ſeconde death. But is it poſſible to ſpeake more cleerelye and purely of Ieſus Chriſte and of the Purgatorye that wee haue in him, then when hee ſayth: De trinita. li. 4 ca. 13. Thorowe his death, that is to ſaye, by one onelye and true ſacrifice, which hath bene offered for vs, hee hath purged, abolythed and put out all that that had anye ſaultes in vs. Wherefore the hygher power and thoſe of authoritie doe bolde and keepe vs for to bee punyſhed: And by his reſurrection hath called vnto a newe lyfe wee which were predeſtyned: hee hath iuſtified thoſe that hee called, and glorified the iuſtified. Beholde woords very cleere. And ſpeaking of the opinion of Plato, he ſayth: Thoſe which are of that opinion, doe thincke that after De ciuis. Dei. li 21. ca. 13 that one is deud, there is no other paines, then of Purgatorye, for to purge ſinnes: Alyttlo after hee ſayth: Wee confeſſe that in this mortall life, there is a certeyne Purgatory paine. It ſeemeth that hee ſomewhat agreeth that the tribulations and aduerſities that man ſuffereth Purgatory in this worlde. in this world, do ſerue him for a purgation of his ſinnes: the which yet neuertheleſſe, they dare not to attribute but to Ieſus Chriſt. Although that we doe commonly ſay, of him which hath had much euil & griefe in this world, ye he hath had heere his Purgatory. For that taſteth muche of the opinion of Plato. But Sainct Auguſtin doth not make ther mētiō, of any paine of purgatoy, after this life, but he ſayth playnely that the ſoules of the faythfull, do Enchi. . 67. reſt after the deathe of the bodye. But what wilt thou more cléerer, then when hée ſayeth: Some doe beleeue that thoſe alſo whiche haue not abandoned the name of Chriſt, and which haue bene baptized in hys Church, and haue not belie cutte off from the ſame, thorow anye ſchiſme or hereſie, that in whatſoeuer ſinnes they haue lyued in, the which they ſhall not deface and put away thorowe penaunce, nor redeemed thorow doing of almes beedes, but ſhall perſeuer and continue in them continually, vntill the laſt daye of their lyfe, ſhall be ſaued thorow the fire: Although that according to the greatneſſe of theire ſinnes and miſdéedes, that fire ſhall bée The fire dinturnall & eternall. diuturnall but not eternall. But mée thincketh that thoſe that doe beléeue this, and yet neuertheleſſe are catholikes, are deceyued thorowe mans beneuolence. For Contra Pelag Hypogu. li. 5 the holy Scripture, if one doe looke and ſearch in it, aunſwereth an other thing. Thou ſeeſt héere Euſebius, that be ſpeaketh of the fire of Purgatory, whatſoeuer thinge he hath ſpoken at other time. And ſayth moreouer, that there is but two wayes, to wit, one of dampnation and Two vvayes onely an other of ſaluation. But marke well his owne words: The fayth of the catholikes, thorowe the diuine authoritie, doth firſt beleeue that there is a kingdome of heauen. Secondly, that there is a hell, in the which euerye apoſtate and ſtraunger to the fayth of Chriſte is punyſhed. Wee are altogether ignoraunt of the thirde. But wée doe not finde in the holy Scriptures, that there is any. It ſeemeth to mee, that hée ſpeaketh very cléerely, and that thoſe authorities ought to ſuffice. thee, againſt all that that thou canſt alledge of the auncient Doctors, in the fauour of Purgatory. Yet neuertheleſſe the better Other vvitneſſes of the moſt. auncion doctors agaynſt Purgatory Ter aduer. Marl. li. 4. The ſieldes Eh eus. to vanquiſh and pull thée down. I wil yet ſhew foorth vnto thee ſome ſentences of the moſt auncient Doctoures. Marke what Tertulian ſayth. It ſeemeth vnto euery one that is wiſe, which haue heard ſomtime ſpoken of ye fields Ehſeus, that it hath ſome locall determination which hath bene called Abrahams boſome, for to receyue the ſoules Abrahams boſome. of his children, and that the ſame region or countrey is not celeſtiall, but it is yet neuer the leſſe more higher then hell, in which the ſoules of the righteous doe reſt, vntyll ſuch time as the conſumation of the thinges, reſtoreth the reſurrection of all men, thorowe perfect rewarde. I doe not prayſe that which Tertulian hath determyned of the place, wythout witneſſe of the Scripture, but I To affirme vncerteyne things thincke it a very daungerous thinge to define of ſuche thinges wythout wytneſſe of the ſame, and I had rather ſtaio my ſelfe vpon the ſentence of ſainct Auguſtine, which ſayth, that it ſhoulde bee very good, that an vncerteyne thing of which not onely the Scriptures doe make no mention of it, but doe ſpeake the contrary, that one ſhould affirme nothing: And alledgeth the ſentence of Seneca, ſayinge: Thou oughteſt to affirme nothing of vncerteyne thinges, but keepe thy iudgement inoerteyne. Alſo Tertulian propounded not the ſame, but as an aduiſe, not as a biffinitiue ſentence, and an article of faith. Yet neuertheleſſe, although that hee ſayd it, that ſentence ſerueth me, for to ſhewe vnto thee that it was no queſtion, in Tertulians tyme, of Purgatorye, after the manner as you haue taken it. For hee putteth but one place indifferently for all the elect, and children of Abraham, which haue bene and ſhall bee vntill the latter reſurrection. It well appeareth, that hee was of opinion, that they were not yet in the celeſtiall habitations and chiefeſt felicitie, but yet neuertheleſſe he aſſigneth vnto them Abrahams boſome, in which all the ſoules of the faythfull do reſt generally, without putting any difference betweene thoſe of the auncient fathers, and ours, nor making mention of paine nor any Purgatory. In like manner Ireneus, who was next the tyme of the Apoſtles, is not of an opinion very much contrary and differing. For Irene. aduer. ha reſ. Valentma. notwythſtanding: that he aſſigned vnto the ſoules of all the Diſciples of Ieſus Chriſt, and the true faythfull, an inuyſible place, whiche is appointed and determyned for them of God, in which they ſhall continue and abyde vntyll the reſurrection, the which they do looke for: Yet neuertheleſſe hée aſſigned but one place for all the Chriſtians, the which hee called Diſciples of Ieſus Chriſte: And bée ſayth not, that ſome ſhall be in paine and other ſome at reſt, but hée putteth them there vppon a condition, and hée aſſigneth vnto all no other paine, but the taryinge and looking for the reſurrection: ſaying, that the Diſciple is not aboue the Maſter, and that as Ieſus Chriſt is not by and by ryſen after his death, but taryed the time that was appointed him of God his Father, ſo muſt hys Diſciples tarye for theirs, as hée hath ordeyned them. It is very true, that in the booke which Recogn. li. 1. is attributed vnto Sainct Clement, it ſeemeth that hee woulde putte a certeyne kinde of Purgatorye, but althoughe the booke were of great authoritie, yet neuertheleſſe it woulde ſerue for nothinge for the Prieſtes Purgatorye. For althoughe that hee putteth a certeyne difference betweene the moſt perfecteſt ſeruaunts of God, and the others whiche haue not nor could not entyrelye accompliſhe the rule of ryghteouſneſſe, but haue yet ſome mallice remayning in theire fleſhe, yet hee aſſigned no paine vnto thoſe: Although that hee thinketh that the others are in more greater glory, but ſaith, that their ſoules are kept in goodly pleaſaunt and ioyfull regyons and countreys, that in the reſurrection of the dead, when they ſhall haue receyued theire bodyes, and that theyre reſolution ſhall bee purged, they maye come vnto eternall lyfe. Beholde his owne woordes, the which he recited, as ſpoken of Sainct Peter; vnto Saint Clement. But there is no appearaunce, that Saincte Peter hath holden thoſe woordes whiche were attributed to him in that booke, nor that Sainct Clement hath The booke of Clement. wrytten them, althoughe that the booke is intituled in his name. For howe manye propoſitions be there altogether contrarye vnto the doctrine of Saincte Peter and of all the Apoſtles? But put the caſe, that the booke were verye auucient, and of the Authour to whome they attribute it, if it be not canoniſed, nor of the Apoſtolicall authoritie: and whiche is more, he putteth no Purgatorye, in whiche there is pame and torment: And when thou wouldeſt conclude by thoſe woordes, that there ſhould be ſome manner of Purgatorye, I wyll vanquiſhe and ouercome thee by hymſelfe, eyther that there is none, or elſe that it is for Purgatory is either far all, or els ther is none. all men: And that there is no man ſo holye, but that he muſt be purged in the ſame. For there was neuer any ſo iuſte and righteous: which hath fulfilled and perfected the rule of righteouſneſſe: which hath bene without ſinne: & which hath not prayed with all the Saints, accordinge to the witneſſe of Dauid; for his unquitye, Pſa 32. and ſayth: pardon our ſinnes: and in whome one could not finde inoughe for to purge, yea, after this lyfe, excepte he had anye other purgation, then that whiche is made by the bloude of Ieſus Chriſte. But although The diuerſltie of opinions touching the ſuffrages for the dead. there were none other reaſons, for to proue that the ſuffrages for the deade, and the Purgatorye, are found out and deuiſed by mans inuentions, then the diuerſitie of opinions of thoſe whiche haue written and ſpoken of it, yet the argument is verye ſtronge. for they doe propounde the doctrine ſo vncerteyne, that one cannot make any reſolution, and a greate deale leſſe, then of the opinions of the Philoſophers: but doe leaue alwayes the conſcience uncerteyne, agaynſt the nature of the woorde of God, whiche alwayes is certeine and cléere.

Hillarius.

Me thincketh that I doe ſée them holde ſo theire pro & contra, that they would make of the Theology, Theologia Ac. dem a. an Academia, in which one may diſpute probably, on both ſides, without giuing any certeine reſolution, but leaue all thinges in doubt. For what foundation hath all that which they doe affirme and ſaye, but vppon fables and mans opinions? The which wee may as ſurely deny, as they to affirme them: yea, by more iuſte reaſon. For wee haue more Scripture for to tell them the contrary, then they haue of apparaunt reaſons, for to proue that which they affirme: for they are Doctors, of which the Apoſtle ſpeaketh off, which doe not vnderſtande that which they ſpeake, nor which they teach and affirme.

Theophilus.

If they were ſo modeſt and reaſonable 1. Timo. 1. b. 7. as the Philoſophers Academians, they ſhould not bee ſo much to bee deſpyſed and blamed. There is no doubt, but that it is required, that wee bee aſſured in the doctrine of The certeyntie in the doctrine of the faith required. the fayth and religion. For there can bee no fayth, where there is but opinions, wythout certeyne perſwaſion.

Wherefore the Theologians haue not ſo lawful and iuſt excuſe, as the Achademians. For when the queſtion is but of humaine and naturall thinges, it is not ſo greate a daunger to follow the opinions of men, and to abide in doubt: But when it is a queſtion of fayth and religion, it muſt bee that the conſcience bee aſſured: the whiche it cannot bee, but by the certeyne worde of God. Now wee doe cleerely ſee, that in ſuch matters they goe not but by The diſputaciōs of the babblers of diuinitie. coniectures and preſumptions, and euerye one of them ſayth and ſpeaketh that which commeth in his fantaſie: But if they doe that but amongeſt themſelues, by manner of diſputation, as the Academians dyd, and after the manner as ſainct Auguſtine did put foorth the queſtion of purgatorye, without affirming it, as an article of ſayth, wée would let them diſpute as longe as they will. But behold that which is worſe, they woulde, that theire opinions ſhould bée receyued and allowed, as oracles and reuelations deſcended from heauen: and they pronounce and giue their ſentence, with more greater authoritie, then if they dyd ſpeake of the pure woord of God: and do compell the Chriſtian people to beleeue & confeſſe, as an artycle Temerine to affirme. Tho. m. 4. diſt 21. of ſaith, that which they haue dreamed and inuented, iudgeing and condemning for hereticks, all thoſe which do ſpeak againſt it: in ſuch ſort that it is more daungerous to ſpeake againſt, & withſtand their decrées & decretals, then the commaundement of God. For our Lord Ieſus Chriſt ſayth, that all ſinne committed by men may be pardened, 〈…〉 Sinne 〈◊〉 holy Ghoſt except the ſinne and blaſphemy againſt the holy ghoſt. But it is written in the decroes and Canons: woe do commaūd, that all decretall conſtitutions of all the Popes ſhould boe Diſt. 19. ca. 51. Romanorum. kept in ſuch ſort, that if any doe commit any thinge contrary vnto them, that he doe know that pardon is denied vnto him, and that he ſhall not haue it.

Hillarius.

I do then conclude by that Canon, that ſinne To ſinne againſt the Pope. againſt the Pope, is ſinne againſt the holy ghoſt, bicauſe there is no pardon. We muſt not ieſt with them. I will compare them to the Academians, but I had a great deale rather that they were like vnto them, then ſuche as they are.

Theophilus.

It ſhould be a greate deale better to define nothing raſhly, of that whereoff they cannot be certeyne: The cou cell of Saint Auguſtin. in Geneſ. 11. 10 and to followe the Counſell of Sainct Auguſtin, ſpeaking of the riche man of whom mention is made in S. Luke: It is better to doubt of ſecret things, then to pleade of vncerteine things. I doubt not, but that we muſt vnder ſtand that the riche man is in moſte extroeme hot paines and torments: and that poore Lazarus in ioy and comfort. But in what ſort one ought to vnderſtand that flame and fire of hell: that boſome of Abraham: that tongue of the ryche man: that finger of poore Lazarus: that thirſt of torment: that droppe of refreſſing, with much a doe we can finde of thoſe which doe ſéeke it with meekenes and modeſty: but of thoſe which do debate of it with contention and ſtrife, many.

Hillariu.

If Sainct Auguſlin, had alwayes followed, that whiche he teached here, his doctrine would haue bene more pure, and would haue ſpoken yet more ſoberly then he hath done of the ſuffrages for the dead: ſith that he had no ſure nor certeine witnes in the worde of God.

Theophilus.

Ieſus Chriſt hath not fore ſpoken without Mat. 24. b 24. The elect in dańger to b. ſeduced. cauſe, that if it were poſſible, the very elect ſhoulde boe ſeduced and deceiued by the falſe Prophets & falſe Chriſts. Wherefore wee ought not to meruaile although Sainct Auguſt n, and ſuch as he was, haue ſometime bene ouercome. But for vs we ought rather to be more confirmed in the doctrine of the Goſpell, ſeeing it fulfilled before ou eyes, & we ought well to learne by the example of others, to walke in the feare of God, without ſtraying or wandring any thing after our opinions and fantaſies. For if already from the time of the Apeſties, Antechriſt did bée in his raigne and worke his ſecret of iniquitie, we muſte 〈◊〉 doubt, but that he was muche aduanced in the time of Sainct Auguſtin. And the Apoſtle calleth not without cauſe, his worke and buſines the miſtery of iniquity. For The reigne of 〈…〉 and he vvorking of 〈…〉 ••• . 59. a. 5. he hath proceeded and gone forwarde ſo ſecretly, craftely and ſubtilly, that the moſt holyeſt and beſt learned, haue bene ouercome. vſe hath of a long time hatched his Cockatrice, and Baſilikes eggs, before hee could bee perceiued, and hath practiſed his matters ſo ſubtilly vnder the earth, that ſcant one could know, to what ende he tendeth, vntill ſuch time as he hath ended and finiſhed his worke, and that Ieſus Chriſt, by his Goſpel, hath opened and reuealed it to his electe: as wée doe ſée by experience, at this 2. Theſſ. 2. b. 5 preſent time: And as I truſt, ſhal doe yet more hereafter. Wherefore we knowing into what inconueniences our fathers are fallen into, yea the wiſeſt and moſte perſect in attributing to much to the authoritie of men and to their opinions and traditions. Let vs take heede, to affirme and Rash determinations & •••• nations. propound vnto the chriſtians, as an article of faith, and doctrine neceſſary to ſaluation, any thing, of whiche wee haue no certeine witnes by the holy ſcripture, & of which by them wee are not cleerely reſolued. For that commeth thorow to greate temeritie and preſumption, the which God will not leaue vnpuniſhed. But whiche is more, although the thing ſhoulde be very true, and ſo as it hath bene preached vnto vs, yet neuertheleſſe, ſith that the worde of God doth not make anye expreſſe mention of it nor doth cléerely ſhew forth, of whiche wee can drawe anye certeine conſequence, and of whiche wée haue no commaundement of GOD, wee maye ſafelye bée ignoraunt of it, without daunger of our ſaluation. For ſith that the Scripture is giuen vnto vs for our inſtruction, vvhat thing vve may ſafely he ignorant off, and vvhat not. not for vs to inquire of the eſtate of the dead, but for to learne vs the way for to come vnto the place of that holy eternall reſt, and true felicity, wée ought to content our ſelues, to know that whiche is commaunded vs and whiche to the ſame is neceſſary for vs, and wee may not bee ignoraunt of them, without dammage and hurte of our ſaluation. And therefore, wée haue no néede, but to holde vs to Ieſus Chriſte, and to aſſure our ſelues vpon his promiſes, béeing certeine and ſure, that that whiche hée hath promiſed vnto that poore théefe hanging vppon the Croſſe with him, ſaying: This daye ſhalt thou bée with mée in Paradiſe, Luc. 3. ſ. 43. toucheth and concerneth euery one of vs, as muche as him, if we be true faithfull. Behold the limittes whiche the Scripture appointeth vnto vs, within which wée muſt dwell, without tormenting our ſelues after the eſtate of the dead, and Purgatory, of which it maketh not mention of it one word.

Euſebius.

I know very well, that although I ſhoulde alledge all the Doctors which haue bene ſithens the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt, vntill this preſent time, that I ſhall profitte nothinge with you. For when you perceiue that they are contrarye vnto your opinions you will not receiue them but when you thinke that they doe make for you: But you will runile to the Scripture, as the pleaders whiche haue an euill matter, doe ſéeke and finde out all the delayes that they canne, and do call alwayes from ſentence to ſentence, what ſoeuer wrong it be, or for to delaye theyr condempnation, or vnder hope that they haue to finde out ſome practiſe or ſhyfte for to deceiue and ouercome theyr party, and to corrupte the Iudges. Wherefore I doe well perceiue that I ſhal be nothing with you, if by the cleere and plaine texte of the Scripture, I doe ot ſloppe your mouth.

Theophilus.

If thou canſl do it, theu haſt gotten y victory. For vnto the ſame doe apperteine the extreame or latter Vn o vvhom do •• perreyne the extreme appe •• vions in cauſes of d. ygloa appellations. And therefore it ſeemeth to mée, that you do greater wrong then we, without any compariſon. For we doe not put our ſelues out of reaſon, nor from the ordinary of iuſtice, ſith that we doe appeale to none other then to our ordinary. Iudge. For what wrong to we vnto men, Ordinary iudge if from them we doe appeale before God which is the ſoueraigne Iudge of al creatures, which hath already giué his ſentence of our differences, by his word, and by the mouth of Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne, and of all his Prophets and Apoſtles, vnto the which we ought to ſtay our ſelues? Diuine & humayne councells Mat. 18. Act. 15. b. 8. But you not beeing contented with them, do appeale from God vnto men: and from the counſell of the Prophets and Apoſtles, of whom Ieſus Chriſt is preſident & chiefe thorow his holy ſpirite, to the councels of men, in whiche The power of the Pope. Diſt. 34. c. ioctor. Gloſ. & diſt. 82. ca. Hreſtyter. & Glo. Apoſtolorum 17. q. 4. ca. 51. ſiquis. diſt. 40. c St Papa. Diſt. 96. c. Satis &c. ſimplices & inſcriptis. the Popes doe rule and are Preſident: who according to your doctrine, haue ſuch power and authority that they may diſpence againſt the apoſtolicall doctrine, & the right of nature, & conſequently againſt the Goſpell & the word of God. For the Pope hath all the diuine and humaine rights in the cabin and cheſt of his breaſt, & that he ought to iudge euery one & ought not to be iudged of any man: inſomuch that when he ſhal leade innumerable of people & great companies into hell, no mortal man ought here to checke and rebuke him of his faultes. For he is god, who cannot be iudged of men.

Hillarius.

It followeth then, that if one doe ſee him to go to all the diuels & to drawe thither all the worlde with him, that none ought to ſaye vnto him that hee doth euill. For hee that ſayth it, both Diſt. 40. ca. Si Papa. iudgeth and rebuketh.

Euſebius.

The Canons do not deny, but that he is to be rebuked, if he be an hereticke, & that he erreth in the faith.

Theophilus.

But you do ſay that hee cannot erre. And The oye out f th: 〈◊〉 herefore when hee is an heretyke and out of the faithe dare we to rebuke him and his doctrine: no not by our au •• ority and ſilence, but by the ſame of God and of all his Prophets and Apoſtles, the whiche we do but propound: yea whiche is more, by that or the auncient Doctors, as thou mighteſt haue ſeene and knowen if thou wouldeſt. And if thou doe not content thyſelfe with that, I will The vvitneſſe of Antechriſt agaynſt his Purgatory. De bapt. & ofſee. cap. Maiores cauſat. God pardoneth not the moy ie Verſus Magiſtrales ex gloſa Larga D i pietas veniam non dimidial it Nam. nil. aut. totum te lacrymante dabat. ſhew vnto thee, how that wicked Antechriſt condempneth himſelfe of his owne mouth, and confeſſeth that there is no ſuch Purgatory, as he woulde eſtabliſh. For hee himſelfe confeſſeth, after that he is much glorified, that God, whiche hath ſaued all men, knoweth no worke of imperfection. And for that cauſe, be pardoneth not ſinnes in part. Therefore the gloſe made vpon that text alledgeth, two verſes conteining that ſentence: The great goodnes of god, will not pardon the halfe. For when with teares & wéeping thou comeſt vnto him, hee will giue thée all or nothing. Now if it were ſo that God reſerueth one part of the ſinnes, for to be puniſhed in Purgatory, as you do affirme, it ſhould follow that God worketh not but halfe with his ſeruants, the whiche none can ſay, without blaſphemy: For the workes of God are perfect. Wherefore Deut. 32. . 4 if thou haue not Euſebius any better refuge in the holye Scripture then thou haſt yet ſhewed foorth, thou haſt loſt thy cauſe by the ſentence of God, and of all his ſeruants: yea of Antechriſt himſelfe whom the vertue of God compelleth to confeſſe the trueth, againſt his owne noſe and inſpite of his teeth, as the diuels did confeſſe Ieſus Chriſte Mar. 8. d. 29 Marc. . c. 25 feeling his power, the which they could not reſiſt.

Thomas.

Thou doeſt here what matters theſe people here haue declared vnto thee, Euſebius: Thou haddeſt almoſte wonne me at the beginning of this diſputation, & confirmed mee in thine opinion, when that I heard thee propound the words of Sainct Auguſtin. But now, after that I hearde their replyings, I am more vncerteine then before. Wherefore I muſte here the rude of that cauſe, & the laſt ſentence, the whiche is giuen by the word of God. I haue determined to declare vnto you the cauſe of my voyage. as I haue promiſed, after that Euſebius ſhal haue done with you: But I am content to deferre it vntill tomorrow, to the ende I maye returne vnto you more reſolued. Wherfore I pray thée, Euſebius, that thou prepare thy ſelfe to fight with them valiantly by the ſword of the word of God, and that we may ſee the ende of that Purgatory, and alſo of the Limbe, whereof the matter hath bene broken off, & hath not ben followed nor reſolued. Yet neuertheleſſe this is one pointe, the which I deſire almoſte aſmuch the reſolution, as of the Purgatory. And to the end you may haue the more leaſure to debate of the matter, I will hold you no longer. But bicauſe that it is now ſo late, therfore me thinketh that it ſhalbe better to take the time at our pleaſure.

Hillarius.

I do like wel Thomas his counſell.

Theophilus.

I am content that we do ſuffer & graunt vnto Euſebius all that he would haue, to the ende we giue him none occaſion to complaine, that he hath had no time and the meane to defende his cauſe.

Euſebius.

Sith that it is ſo, I doe agrée to your opinion: But it is vppon ſuch condicion, whiche is of force, that before that I departe from you, either that you be of mine opinion, or I of yours: wherevppon ſaye a dieu, farewell.

Vnto the Reader.

It ſeemeth vnto mee good to adde vnto thee here the ſequence of thoſe that bee dead in Latin, the whiche was omitted in the margent, Fol. 167. where it is tranſlated faithfully into Engliſh meeter.

Oratio ſiue ſequentia ad beatam Mariam pro defunctis. Lugentibus in purgatorio, Qui torrentur ardore nimio Et torquentur ſine remedio, Subueniat tua paſsio. O Maria. Fonses patens quae culpas abluis Omnes ſanas & nullum reſpuis, Manum tuam extende mortuis Qui ſub poenis languent continuis O Maria. Ad te pia, ſuſpirant mortui, Cupientes de poenis erui, Et adeſſe tuo conſpectui, Et gaudis aeternis perſrui. O Maria. Clauis Dauid quae coelum aperis, Nune beata ſuccurre miſeris, Qui tormentis torquentur aſperis, Educ eas de domo carceris. O Maria. Lex iuſlorum, Norma credentium, Vera ſalus in te ſperantium: Pro deſunctis ſit tibi ſludium Aſsidue orare ſilium. O Maria. Benedicta per tua merita Te rogamus mortuos ſuſcita, Et dimittens corum debita: Ad requiem ſis eis ſemita. O Maria. FINIS.
¶ The table of the principall matters of the ſeconde parte of the Chriſtian diſputations. A. A Bell hearing Maſſe. 184 Abragan, 154 Abſtinence and ſeperation from women. 141. Abſtinence from lawfull thinges. 141. Abſtinence from beaſts fleſh. 170 Abſtinence from meates. 171. Accidents burned. 161. Accidents without ſubſtance. 162. Adam preſt. 185. Admiraſion of the water and ſalt. 152. Adonis. 150. Aduent. 139. Aerius. 192. Eaeſculanus. 143. Affection foliſh towards the deade. 181. Affection of women that followed Ieſus. 193. Alleluya. 150. Alexander Pope. 141. 163. Alexander Natiuitie. 156. Amburbales. 149. Aneylia. 161. Anchiles. 129. Anniuerſaries 128. 130 Anexagoras. 123. Aunſwere to the place of the 19. Chap. of Exodus. 117. 144 Antipopes. 190 Antiquitie of the name of Maſſe. 183. Antiquitie of the Aegyptians. 184. Antiquitie of the Areadians. 184. Antiquitie and inſtruction of mariage. 185 Apes of the Apoſtles. 126 Apparell white. 167 Appearing of ſpirits to what end they pretende. 135 Appellations extremes to whom they belong. 198 Apoph hegme of Diogenes. 153. Artillerie Papiſticall. 116 Aſperſions and ſprinklings at the entring in & comming forth of the temple. 153 Aſhes holy. 168 Aſhes of an Heyfer. 171 Aſhes of the Auncients 169 Aſhes of the veſtales. 171. Saint Auguſtine. 175 Authoritie of S. Auguſtin for ye ſuffrages for the deade. 176 Authors of the Maſſe. 183. Authours of the ecleſtiall and Eccleſiaſticall Hierarchia. 126 Ayme Duke of Sauoye. 191 B. Bacchanales, Bacchus. 140 Banket and ſupper for the dead. 132 Baptiſme deferred. 172 Baptiſme for the dead 172. 183 Baptiſed to be for the dead. 172 Beginning of prayers for the deade. 116 Benifices and offices giuen by parentage. 139 Bellyes giuen to ſlouth vnder coulour of religion. 123 Beſſation. 191 Berengarus. 139 Bying of the ſielde of Ephron. 118 Bloud of Ieſus. 163 Bleſſing of the brides bed. 147 Bleſſing of Torches and Tapers. 153 Bleſſing of the Paſcell fire. 157 〈…〉 171 〈…〉 •• 6. 138 〈…〉 195 〈…〉 of propoſit •• . 144 〈◊〉 and mourning for Iacob and Moſis. 117 C. Candelles of a good ſaiut. 181 Candelles bleſſed and pruceſſious. 151 Candelles for the health of ſoule and bodie. 152 Candelmes day. 147 Caru the goddeſſe the porter. 167 Caſtor and Pollus. 1 1 The cauſe of the mourning of the Iſraelites. 119 The cauſe of the inſtituciō of feaſts. 147 Celerin and his family. 179 Cereales. 151 Certitude in the doctrme of faith required. 196 Ceremonies. 170 Chameleon. 1 3 Charmes. 152 Chaſtitie and ſecretly. 145 Chaſe away the diuell by faſting & prayers. 171 Charge of ceremonies. 130 Cloris. 166 Chriſtians ſauage wilde. 146 Combat of Mars and Mine •• a. 136 The true Commemoration of the death of Ieſus Chriſt. 151 Commemorantes. 181 To Communicate ſacramentally & ſpiritually. 186 Compariſon of the Aſhes of an Heiſer & holy water. 163 Conformitie and deformitie of the Bacchanales and the Shroftide. 146 Conformities betweene the religion of the Pa •• ms and the Popes. 136 Conformitie betweene God mars and faint Ge rge. 137 Conformitie of the feaſtes of the deade. 137 Conformitie of Cyble to our Lady. 138 Conſtancy of the Greekes. 190 Complaint of Saint Auguſtine. 130 Co •• uring of the water. 153 To put the Lorde about the necke. 144 Co empaing of the Goſpel. 14 Counſell and moderation of Saint Paul 144 Councile of Conſtance and of Baſle. 187 Councile of Florence. 190 Councile of Lateran. 190 Councile of Baſill. 190 Councile of Ferrara. 190 Councile of Innocent Pope and others. 190 Conuent of Monkes. 183 Couetous of renowne 156 Creatures of the Pope. 143 Creators of the creatour. 143 Craft and deceite of a Prieſt of Canopus. 157 Cuſtome of the Romaines. 123 Cuſtome of the Thracians. 122 Cuſtome of the Cathercumenes. 172 Cuſtome of the Lecedemonians. 123 Cuſtome of the Lycians. 123 Cuſtome auncient of the Maſſilians. 123 Cyble. 137 Cygales. 133 Cyp •• an. 177 D. Dayes appointed to mourne. & for what cauſe. 119 Dayes Ariſtotolicalls. 134 Dayes dedicated to the deed. 117 Dau d and Abimelech. 141 Denis Areopag te. 126. 177 Diana Strongilios or Diana Rotunda. 138 The diſceite which Faunus did thinke to do vnto Hercules. 147 Difference betweene hiſike and Philoſphiie, a charmer and a Magicyan. 154 Diſhonour vnto the Urigin Mary, 151 Little diſpenſes & coſtes about the dead. 132 Dispenſation of mariage. 124 Diſpenſations of the Pope. 141 Disputations of the bablers of Diuinytie. 196 Disputations of the Athess of the hoaſt. 161 Diuerſitie of opinions touching the ſuffrages for the dead. 196 Doctrine of the Apoſtles perfect. 193 Dioniſiales. 146 E. Eaſter. 150 Ecc •• . 115 Egges of Serpents. 197 Elect in daunger to be ſeduced. 197 Aeneas. 129 Ende of mans life. 142 Ende of the Popes Lawes. 143 Eucratiſtes and Seuerians 141 Epitaphe of Lucreſſe. 141 Errour of the Idolaters and hypocrits. 164 Example of Dauid. 125 Excommunication for communion. 18 Exhortacion to repentance. 144 F. Falſe following of the worke of Saints. 164 Faſtings condempned. 170 Faſtings of the auncients. 169 Faſtings and abſtinence of the Panims. 171 Faſtings. 167 Faſting the principall vſe. 170 Fannes and Satyres. 147 Februa. 131. 149 Feaſtes and Anniuerſaries for the deade and their beginning. 128 Feaſted for the deade in Februarie. 129 Feaſtes of Martyrs and confeſſors. 13 The feaſt of the dead. 138 An other feaſt of the dead. 139 Feaſts of mad men. 140 Feaſt of ſaint Peters chaire. 133 Feaſts of the dead in May. 129 Feaſts cut in peeces. 139 An other feaſt of the deade in Ianuarie. 139 Feaſts of fooles. 140 Feaſt of Kings. 14 Feaſt of the Panims compriſed in ye feaſt of Candels. 14 Feralis Coena. 132 Fire of Veſta. 158 Fire Diuturnall and eternall. 194 Fire kindeled in the Temple of Veſta. 160 Fire and water the Gods of the Papiſts. 157 Fire the God of the Perſians. 154 Fire made a God. 159 Fires of S. Brandon & of Ihon. 168 The true fire what it is. 162 Flora. 166 Florales. 151. 166. Fluona. 149 The force of gold and of Iron. 159 Fraction or breaking of the hoaſt. 188 G. Gerion. 131 Gift of continency. 144 Gifts to doe myracles in the primitiue Church. 126 Goddeſſe Pecunia. 143 Goddeſſe of Beaſts. 169 God Ris. 150 God compared to fire. 155 God Canopus. 156 Gods of fire and water. 162 The great God of the Pope. 14 The most puiſſant God of the Prieſts. 158 Good fryday. 150 Gold why it is pale. 159 Gregory the firſt. 116 Gregory the third. 116 Gregory the fourth. 138 H. Handkerchefe of Chambery. 160 Harpe of Orpheus and that of the pope. 131 Hecate triua & triformis. 131 Hercules. 131 Heroſtratus. 156 Hillaria. 150 Holy bread and the breade of ſaint Agathe. 165 Holy hoaſt 158 Hooſtes the ſubtilleſt in the world. 186 Humilytie famed. 170 Hypocrits. 170 Hymenius the God of mariages. 136 I. Ieto me contrarie vnto mariage. 145 Saint Ieſſiye. 140 Ieaſt of a holy father. 134 Iewes among the Chriſtians. 160 Idolatrie of the fire and plamrets. 155 Images Noſes ſtopped and couered. 172 Images inſtruments of the diuell. 155 Image of ſaint George caſt into Saine. 137 Imitacion of the Iewes and Panyms and of Mahomet. 128 Incredulytie. 171 Induction. 142 Inſtitucion of the ſupper. 185 Infirmitie of man. 148 Interpretation of the bleſſing of the new fire. 157 Inuocation of Saints. 181 Iulian the Apoſtat. 132 Iuno Soſpita. 167 Iuno and Diana Queene of Heauen. 138 Iupiter a ſauiour. 167 L Laughing of the Soules. 134 Lawe of uma for the marriage of widowes. 124 Lawes of marriage what they ought to be. 124 Laws of the Romaines of the mourning of widowes. 124 Lawe of the Iewiſh funeralles. 120 Lawe of faſtings. 169 Lawes cimles and obedience to Maieſtrates. 142 Lewes King. 1 9 Lent. 240 Libertie of the Goſpell. 120 Libertie Chriſtian. 11 Lymit of mans affection. 121 Lugentibus in Purgatory. 166 Lupercales. 129. 149 M. Manner by the which the ſoules are de uered. 176 Manner and faſhion of mourning among the auncients. 123 Manners and life of Pope Iohn. 139 Manicheans. 140 Man without meanes and howe he vſeth the exteriour things. 148 Mantell or cloake of Iuno. 149 Marriage forbidden. 139 Marriage forbidden among the Panims at certeine times. 136 Saint Marie le Rounde. 137 Saint Margarete. 138 Mars. 149 Maſſes for the deade firſt begun. 180 Maſſalians and Romaines. 123 Maſſe for the deade. 1 7 Maſſes priuate and particular. 185 The Caſter Maſſe of the whooremonger Prieſts. 147 Maſſe what company it ought to haue. 188 Maſke of Sathan. 138 Matter to make the Aſhes. 171 Meanes that we muſt keepe at ye mournings and funeralls, and the viees of the Panims. 120 Memento of the quicke and deade. 189 Meria. 169 Metellus. 160 Mondayes dedicated to the deade. 129 Monica. 176. 193 Mortie of the ſupper taken from the people. 187 Montanus hereticke. 169 Mourning vndecent for Chriſtians. 122 Mourning of Samuel and Paul. 125 Mourning of the auncient Iſraelits. 125 Mourning for the liuing and thoſe that be ſicke. 125 Mourning for the dead. 117 Mute the Goodeſſe. 168 Multitude of Maſſes forbidden. 188 N. Names of the Popes chaunged. 189 Natiuitie of Alexander. 156 Nauclerus. 116 Nenſuains. 127 Numa. 129 Nymphes of the Prieſts and of the Panims. 133 O. Obey for conſcience. 143 Obiection. 117. 14 Obſequies of the Greekes in September 130 Odilo the good Abbot. 138 Office of Mercure 131. 131 Office of a wiſe man. 123 Olimpias. 156 Onction with oyle and extreame onction 126 Opinion of Saint Auguſtine touching Purgatorie. 191 Oſiris and Serapis. 150 Order of the Chriſtian aſſembles. 178 Ordinance and vſe of mariage. 144 Order & vſe of creatures turned vpſidedowne. 153 Order of Saint Benet. 188 Order of the dead. 181 Oracle of Apollo. 132. 133 Originall of priuate Maſſes. 183. Originall of Images. 181 Orphens and Erridice. 131 Our Lady. 166 Ouid a Prophet of the Pope. 135 P. Palladium. 160 Palis a goddeſſe. 168 ſaint Panſard. 140 Pantheon and all ſaints. 137 'God pardoneth not the moytie. 199 Paſcall taper. 158 Perfumes holy. 171 Perſians without Temple or Images. 156 Philoſophie Pitagorieall. 119 Phocas. 138 Place of the 1. Samuel 21. Chapter. 144 Place of Ioel. 2. Chapter. 144 Plaiſter for all ſores. 153 Pluto of the Chriſtians. 131 Pope Sergius. 150 Pope Felix. 191 Pope Pelagius. 116 Pope Martyn. 146. 190 Pope Eugenius. 190 Pope out of the faith. 198 Pope what God he is. 142 To poſſede and keepe his veſſell in honour. 141 Power of the Pope. 131. 198 Power of the fire vpon the Gods. 155 Prayer. 169 Praiſe of Tertulian. 177 Praxi les. 1 8 Predeceſſors of the Papiſts. 135 Preparation to the Lords table. 14 Prieſt ſtroken. 153 Proſe and ſequence for the dead. 166 Preparation to the Bacchanales. 146 Prouerbe of the Moukes. 145 Proceſſion of Mars. 136 Proceſſion of the feait God and the holy fire. 158 Prolerpina and Hecate Queene of Heauen and Hell. 166 Profite of ſackcloth and Aſhes. 170 purgatorium ſacrum quod vocant Febrū 130 Purgations of men and beaſts. 168 Purgatory and his beginning. 180 Purgatorie reiected of the Greekes. 190 Purgatorie is for all men or els it is not. 169 Purgatory receiued by the Greekes. 191 Purgatorie in this worlde. 194 Purgatorie for the quicke & deade. 171 Of Purgatory a queſtion. 181 Purgatious. 162 Puniſhment for diſpiſing the ſoules. 135 Purifications of women. 149 Purification after the funeralles. 120 Purification. 149 Put on ſackcloth and aſhes. 169 R. Raigne of Antichriſt and the working of iniquitie. 197 The honorable recantation of Berengarius. 188 Recyting of the Pſalter. 126 Remembrance of the dead in the ſupper. 182 Repreſentation of the Euangelical light 151 Requeſeant in Pace of the bawde. 133 Robes of the Prieſts doing myracles. 149 Rogations. 140. 149 Rome, old and newe. 128. 135 Romulus and Remus Lemuria. 129 Rudiments of Religion. 170 S. Sacraments. 134 Sacrifice of the Alter and of a Mediatour. 182 Sacrifice of praiſe & thanks giuing. 182 Sacrifice to the infernall Gods. 149 Sacrifice in the auncient Church what it ſignifieth. 178 Sacrifice of the Martyrs. 179 Sacrifice of reconcilietion. 182 Sacrum Purgatorium quod vocant Februm. 130 The ſaying of the Turke touching the Popiſh Maſſe. 186 Sciſmes and Antipopes. 190 Scrip of Mercury. 131 Selling of God. 143 Seperation of the huſband and wife for a time. 144 Septanarii. 119 Septuageſima. 140 Sergius. 189 Seuerus. 14 Shrofe Sundaye. 146 Shadowes hauing teeth and bellyes. 133 Shadowes of the dead. 133 Sigiſmonde. 190 Signification of a Comet. 139 Signification of Februarie. 130 Signification of the fire of the perpetaal Holocauſte. 157 Sinne againſt the Pope. 197 Sinne againſt the holy Ghoſt. 197 Sunne againſt the Pope and againſt God. 142 Sinnes beniall deaced. 163 Sinne mortall. 163 Soules and wandering ſhadowes. 135 Statutes for the communion. 189 Suffrages of the dead. 196 Superſtition of Gregory. 145 Supper what ſacrifice it is. 182 Supper deformed. 183 Supper for the dead. 172 Supper populer. 187 Supper deſpiſed. 189 Supper ſacrifice of redemption. 189 To take the Supper for the dead. 183 T. Table ſet for the ſoules. 133 Tacianus. 141 Thanmus. 150 Temeritie to affirme 196 Temples burned in Aſia. 155 Temple of Diana burned. 156 Temple of Diana Epheſian. 156 Temple of Fortune. 152 Ternatii. 119 Theologia Academica. 162. 196 Thelogia Aquatica. 162 Three Popiſh crownes. 131 Theſeus and Py othus. 131 Time ordinarie for the mourning of the Iſraelites. 118 Time preſcribed for mourning. 121 Times of ſaſtings. 140 Tytles of Chriſt. 167 Tytles of Images. 155 Tytles of the Goddeſſes of the Panims. 166 Torches of the Chriſtians. 151 Tranſlation of the bones of Ioſeph. 118 Tranſlation of Iacob into the lande of Canaan. 118 Tranſubſtantiation. 139. 187 V. Valentinian. 152 The Uaile. 172 Uertue of Ieſus Chriſt anfferred to the creatures. 153 Uictory of Canopus. 157 Uicare at the tuble. 187 Uicare of faith. 187 Uigiles for the dead. 149 Uiſitacion of the ſicke. 126 Uſe of extreme vnction. 126 W. Waſhings of the Turkes. 164 Waſhings of the Phariles. 146 The true waſhings. 165 Two wayes onely. 194 Water of ſeperation conſecrated with the Aſhes of an Heyfer. 120 True holy water. 165 The whippes of the Lupercalls. 149 The kinde of wine. 187 Witneſſe of the faith of the Patriarks. 118 Witneſſe of ſaint Auguſtin againſt papiſticall Purgaſory 193 Witneſſe of the moſt auncient doctours againſt Purgatory. 194 Witneſſe of Antichriſt againſt his Purgatorſt. 199 X. Xerces. 155 FINIS TABVLAE.

¶ THE THIRD PART of the Chriſtian diſputations.

By Maſter Peter Viret.

Tranſlated out of French into Engliſh by Iohn Brooke of Aſshe next Sandwich.

1. COR. CAPT. 1. XXX.

¶ Ieſus Chriſt is made vnto vs of God, wiſdome & righteouſneſſe of ſanctification and redemption.

MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR Ē VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE printer's device of Thomas East, of a black horse standing on a wreath (McKerrow 206)

¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas Eaſt.

THE ARGVMENT AND SVMME of the fift Dialogue.

THomas declareth the cauſes, for which he did enterpriſe and take in hande his vioage vnto Sainct Patricke. And inaſmuch as Euſebius could not mainteine his Purgatory by the aunerent Doctors of the Church, he laboureth and enforceth himſelfe, if he can relieue it, through the ayde and helpe of the holy Scripture, and taketh for his firſt defence and weapons the ſecond booke of the Marchabees: by occaſion whereoff, is intreated, the difference which ought to be put, betweene the bookes that are Canonicall & thoſe that are Apocryph: And it is in like manner declared in what authoritie & reputation that booke ought to be among the Chriſtians. Afterwards, although peraduenture, there ſhalbe ſome matters, which may ſeeme ſomewhat curious vnto ſome men, yet neuertheles ſhall be ſpokē of the Limbes, as wel of the auncient fathers as of the young children that are borne dead, & dead without circumciſion & baptiſme, & of the difference which may be betweene thē which haue ben vnder the new & old teſtamēt, as wel little as great, as wel quick as dead, & of their condition & eſtate. We do entreate of thoſe things very amply bicauſe that many do moue queſtions, & that there is good, proſitable & neceſſary points to be vnderſtanded, for to correct many errors, abuſes & falſe opinions, thuching thoſe matters, which are come among the Chriſtians. Ther ſhalbe in like manner ſpoken of baptiſine adminiſtred by womē & declared by liuely & plain reaſons, how Ieſus Chriſt, is the onely health & ſatisfaction of all the elect, & children of God: & how the vertue & efficacie of his death & paſion extendeth it ſelfe frō the beginning of the world vnto the ende of the ſame. Item, what is the true baptiſme of Ieſus Chriſt: the remiſsion of ſinnes, & the ſatisfaction worthy of the righteouſneſſe of God. To what ende the god woorkes doe profit the Chriſtian. What is the iudgement of God vpon the good and euill, and by what means ſome are deliuered, and other ſome doe abide ſubiect. Furthermore, how the iudgement is alredy done vpon euery one, and whether we ought yet to attend & loke for it: And how Hel and Paradiſe doe begin already in this world, & when their full and whole conſumation ſhal bee. It ſhalbe in like manner declared, how the place of the Machabees ſerueth nothing at all to proue the Purgatory: And there ſhall be alſo declared of the manner, by which the auncient people of God haue prayed for the dead, and for the comming of Ieſus Chriſt, and wherein the Chriſtians may follow it, without ſpeaking againſt the word of God. It ſhal be alſo touched how in our time and by what meanes Sathan endeuoured himſelfe to eſtabliſh his Purgatory, and the prayers for the dead, and what maſke & inſtrument he hath choſen for to do that. Wee doe call this Dialogue the Hels, bicauſe that wee doe declare how many hels the Papiſticall doctrine hath forged for vs, and the lodgings and chambers that it hath there builded.

¶THE FIFTH DIALOGVE which is called the Hels.

EVſebius. For as much as Thomas hath reſerued for himſelfe one part of this day for to make his Narration, and of hys owne accord hath graunted vnto mée the greateſt parte, therefore it is good reaſon that hée do begin firſt. Wherfore I giue him the choice, whether he will go before or behinde.

Hillarius.

I deſire for my part, that Thomas doe rehearſe firſt the cauſe of his enterpriſe and voyage. For I doe much deſire to heare it and vnderſtand it.

Thomas.

Thou oughteſt not to be much deſirous of it. For thou canſt not heare of me any thing which is much worth. Wherefore I am well content to holde my peace, if you wyll. For I feare greatly that after that you haue heard mée, you will mocke me, chiefly Hillarius, who is ſo expert in that occupation. I beléeue that it is the chiefeſt cauſe, wherefore hée ſo greatlye deſireth to heare my wordes. Wherefore I thinke it beſt Euſebius, that thou doe procéede-forwarde and proſecute thy intent. For the matters that you haue to intreat off, are better then thoſe which you can heare of mée: And in hearing you, I may profite, but in ſpeaking, I can but ſpende the time, the which you wil employ and beſt nine to a better ende. And therefore beginne, and after if there be any ſpare time, I will ſée what I ſhal do.

Theophilus.

I beleeue that we ſhal haue time inough. Feare not thē to begin, ſith y thou haſt alredy told vs, y thou wilt not be ouer long. But thou wilt make vs finde the thing good. For that cauſe doſt loue to be entreated ſo much, knowing that the more thou refuſeſt to tel vnto vs that we demaund, ſo much y more we deſire it.

Thomas.

I haue regard vnto another thing. I conſider y which Salomon hath writtē, ſaying: if a foole do hold his tongue, he ſhalbe counted wiſe. For he compareth Pro. 17. d. 28 Iudgement by the vvorld. man, to a loohing glaſſe, or a bell y which one doth know by the ſounde; whether they be broken or whole. So in like manner may one iudge of man, in hearing him ſpeake, whether hée be wiſe or fooliſh. For one perceiueth the ſpirit of man, in his word. As his figure in a glaſſe: and one may beholde in the ſame, the nature of him, as the complection of the body in his water & vrine, by which it is eaſie to iudge, what drogues hee hath in the ſhoppe of his braine.

Hillarius.

Thou wilt that one ſhould ſaye of thée, that which a Philoſopher once ſaid of a certeine man y he did ſée ſit at a banket, which ſpake not a word, although y all the others did put foorth certeine queſtiōs, & gaue vnto him matter inough for to ſpeake in his courſe. If that man (ſaith Apothegma. he) be a wiſe man, hée playeth the part of a foole: if he be a foole, he playeth the part of a wiſe man.

Thomas.

I cannot well vnderſtand that matter. For me thinketh that it conteineth & implyeth contradiction.

Hillarius.

He giueth therby to vnderſtand, that euen as too much ſpeaking apperteineth vnto fooles & ideots, ſo alwaies to holde ones peace, agréeth to beaſts, and not vnto men. Wherfore ther muſt be a meane kept in all things.

Thomas.

That is the ſame to the which I pretend: And I doe thinke, that I ſpeak ynough according to the place & men with whom I am. And bicauſe y I am not wiſe, for to ſpeak wel. I wil at the leaſtwiſe thorow ſilence thorow ſilence counterfet the wiſe. For it is cōmonly ſaid: it is euil to ſpeak Latin before learned men. When Cōmon pro erb I am with ignoraunt men as my ſelfe, I doe ſpeake as a Doctor, eſpecially if I thinke that I haue the moytie of a dragme or ſcruple more of knowledge then they. But when I come before you, I doe looſe by and by all my babling.

Hillarius.

Thou wouldeſt héere very gladly make an ende. But thou muſt firſt declare vnto vs that thou haſt promiſed.

Thomas.

Sith y thou vrgeſt mée ſo much, thou ſhalt haue it: But if thou doeſt mocke mée, bée aſſured, that I ſhall haue as good matter agaynſt thee, for to render vnto thée the lyke. For thou thinckeſt to heare ſome greate ſecrete, and thou ſhalt finde thy ſelfe deceiued: doeſt thou not know mée yet, Hillarius? Firſt of all, thou art not ignoraunt, how that I was neuer verye wiſe. Thou mayſt then preſume, what merchaundiſe I can bring foorthe of my ſhoppe, and what Doctor contemplatiue I may bée. Thou knoweſt verye well that I am called

Thomas.

Now if I be Thomas of name, yet I approch nerer of the nature of my godfather, of whom I do beare the name then of his name. If hée hath ben incredule The incredulity of Thomas Iohn. 20. ••• . and vnbleeuinge, inſomuch that hée woulde not beleeue the reſurrection of Ieſus Chriſt, excepte hée dyd ſee him, himſelfe, with his owne eyes, and touche him wyth his hand, and except he did put his fingers in his wounds. So for my parte, I doe doubt, and know not well whome I may beleeue. But I haue greater occaſion to doubte, then Sainct Thomas had. For hée hearde the promyſe which Ieſus Chriſt made of his reſurrection, of whiche hée had not ſo iuſt an occaſion to doubte, ſith that hée had already ſo many times founde by experience Ieſus Chriſt true in all his words, and that he had all his fellowes and companions, who with one accorde did tell him, howe hée appeared vnto them after his reſurrection, and that they had ſeene him and touched him. But I, whiche am but a poore ideot and very ignoraunt, what ought I to thinke, and whereto ought I to ſtaye my ſelfe, when I conſider the diuerſitie of opinions whiche is amonge men, touchinge the religyon, and namely touching the eſtate of the dead, and of the infernall and celeſtiall regyons and habitations, yea, amongeſt the moſte ſage and wiſeſt? As I haue proued in theſe dayes amonge your ſelues, who are of as contrarye a ſentence the one from the other, as the fire and the water. Therefore haue I taken in hande the voiage of Sainct Petricke, in which S. Patricks wels as men ſay, one ſhall ſee the eſtate of all the dead: the tormentes of the dampned which are in bell, and of the ſoules detayned and kepte in Purgatorye and in the Limbe, and in lyke manner the ioyes of Paradiſe. Therefore I doe truſt and hope, that I may be there informed in the truth of all thoſe things, and that after I haue ſéene them I ſhal be out of all doubt. For I know no more to ſeeke any other remedies. Yet neuertheleſſe, ſithence that I haue beard theſe matters debated more amply and cléerely and better declared, then euer I did before, I haue very much loſt my fantaſie. You doe well remember, that I ſayd, that after that I had ſpoken to the holy father, who hath ſo well diſciffered that matter, that peraduēture I ſhould haue gained my voiage, without going vnto him, I feare very much that before that I depart from you, you will cut off all the way, and make it ſhorter. For I hope through the helpe of God, that we will viſite this day all thoſe chambers & internall habitations without mouing our ſelues from hence, and before that we depart, if that the one and the other of you doe that, whereof you brag and vaunt your ſelues you will. For you haue promiſed on euery of your partes, that you will haue recourſe to none other Iudge, but to the pure word of God. And as for mée, if you take it for the Iudge, I am wel content, The vvorde of God iudge and guide Aene. 6. Pſa. 119. c. 05. to take it for my guide: And I am certeine that it will guide mée better, then Cyble guided Aeneas.

Theophilus.

If thou doe not hold thy ſelfe aſſured, Dauid, who ſpeaketh by experiēce, can certify thée, ſaying. Thy woord O Lorde is a lanterne vnto my féete. That guyde will not conduct and lead thée vnto thy fathers that are dead, as Virgile did cauſe Aeneas to bee lead of Syble vnto his father Anchiſes, but it will lead thée vnto the liuing God, thy immortall father, whome by the ſame thou ſhalt heare ſpeake, for to put thee out of all doubt.

Hillarius.

Ther is alſo an other point, that when we ſhal haue ended The gates of dreames. the voiage, we ſhal not go by ye gates of dreams, as Aeneas: or as our holy father, whom we haue heard dreame ſo wel, as all ſuch as hee is doe, which repoſe & reſt themſelues in any other bed, then vppon the pure word of God. For it hath ſuch vertue, that whoſoeuer reſteth vpon it ſhall neuer dreame nor raue: or it bee dreame, hee goeth not by the gates of Iuory, but by ye horne gate, which is cleere The gate of Iuory & horne & through the which one may ſée as with the eyes: in ſuch ſort that ſuch dreames are more certeine, then that which others doe ſée with their eyes: as it appeareth in thoſe of Ioſeph and Daniel. But he that will lye or reſt himſelfe in any other bed, ſhall neuer ceaſe to dreame and wander The dreames of the Saints & of the erring Theologiſters aſtray out of the waye: And all their dreames doe go by the gate of Iuory, which is thicke as ye bones are, Wherfore one can perceiue nothing by the ſame, as we doe ſée by experience in our Theologians and Sophiſts whiche are ſo obſcure and darke that one can ſée nothing at all. For after ye they haue well banketed & moiſted thēſelues wt that good Theological wine, they haue ye ſpirite of wine yt which the great God Bacchus hath inſpired them, & maketh The ſpirite of Bacchus them to enter by the gate of Iuory, that is to ſaye, betwéene the téeth and chawes, which cauſeth ſo many exhalations of that diuine licor well tempered with wine, & ſo many fumes and heates to aſcende and mount into the braine, that they do dreame more déeper, then the loweſt parts of hell and the ſeate of Lucifer. Afterwards they returne beeing rauiſhed in their Poetical furor & madneſſe, as if they were departed all newly and freſhe. But euen as their dreames are entred by the gate of Iuory by force of chewing and mouing their chawes and cockſcombes, as the Organ bellowes, ſo doe they go foorth by the very ſame gate.

Thomas.

Let vs then go in by the other gate, and in ſuche ſobrietie, that we may know the things, as though we ſaw thē wc our eyes. But who ſhal begin to declare & ſhew it vnto vs? mee thinketh yt Euſebius maketh himſelf ready. Begin then to knocke, & cauſe it to be opened vnto vs?

Euſebius.

I will enter firſt by the olde teſtament.

Hillarius.

But take good heede you lead vs not awrye, and to take the one for the other: For if thou doe erre and go aſtray, we will direct and leade thee into it againe.

Euſebius.

But I will direct and leade you well. Giue 〈…〉 eare then vnto that which is written of I das Machabens, 〈1 page duplicate〉 〈1 page duplicate〉 〈1 page duplicate〉 〈1 page duplicate〉 〈1 page duplicate〉 〈1 page duplicate〉 Therefore I t •• truſt and hope, that I may be there informed in the truth of all thoſe things, and that after I haue ſéene them I ſhall be out of all doubt. For I know no more to ſéeke any other, remedies. Yet neuertheleſſe, ſithence that I haue beard theſe matters debated more emply and cléerely and better declared, then euer I did before, I haue very much loſt my fantaſie. You doe well remember, that I ſayd, that after that I had ſpoken to the holy father, who hath ſo well diſciffered that matter, that paraduēture I ſhould haue gained my voiage, without going vnto him, I feare very much that before that I depart from you, you will cut off all the way, and make it ſhorter. For I hope through the helpe of God, that we will viſite this day all thoſe chambers & infernall habitations without mouing our ſelues from hence, and before that we depart, if that the one and the other of you doe that, whereof you brag and baunt your ſelues you will. For you haue promiſed on euery of your partes, that you will haue recourſe to none other Iudge, but to the pure word of God. And as for mée, if you take it for the Iudge, I am wel content The vvorde of God iudge and guide Aene. 6. Pſa. 119. c. 105. to take it for my guide: And I am certeine that it will guide mée better, then Cyble guided Aeneas.

Theophilus.

If thou doe not hold thy ſelfe aſſured, Dauid, who ſpeaketh by experiēce, can certify thée, ſaying. Thy woord O Lords is a lanterne vnto my féete. That guyde will not conduct and lead thée vnto thy fathers that are dead, as Virgile did cauſe Aeneas to bée lead of Syble vnto his father Anchiſes, but it will lead thée vnto the liuing God, thy immortall father, whome by the ſame thou ſhalt heare ſpeaks, for to put thée out of all doubt.

Hillarius.

Ther is alſo an other point, that when we ſhal haue ended The gates of dreames. the voiage, we ſhal not go by ye gates of dreams, as Aeneas: or as our holy father, whom we haue heard dreame ſo wel, as all ſuch as hée is doe, which repoſe & reſt themſelues in any other bed, then vppon the pure word of God. For it hath ſuch vortue, that whoſoeuer reſſeth vpon it ſhall neuer dreame nor rane: or if hée dreame, hée goeth not by the gates of Iuory, but by ye horne gate, which is cléere The gate of Iuory & herne & through the which one may ſée as with the eyes: in ſuch ſort that ſuch dreames are more certeine, then that which others doe ſée with their eyes: as it appeareth in thoſe of Ioſeph and Daniel. But he that will lye or reſt himſelfe in any other bed, ſhall neuer ceaſe to dreame and wander The dreames of the Saints & of the e ring Theologiſters aſtray out of the waye: And all their dreames doe go by the gate of Iuory, which is thicke as ye bones are. Wherfore one can perceiue nothing by the ſame, as we doe ſée by experience in our Theologians and Sophiſts whiche are ſo obſcure and darke that one can ſée nothing at all. For after ye they haue well banketed & moiſted thēſelues wc that good Theological wine, they haue ye ſpirite of wine ye which the great God Bacchus hath inſpired them, & maketh The ſpirite of Bacchus them to enter by the gate of Iuory, that is to ſaye, betwéene the téeth and chawes, which cauſeth ſo many exhalations of that diuine licor well tempered with wine, & ſo many fumes and heates to aſcende and mount into the braine, that they do dreame more déeper, then the loweſt parte of hell and the ſeate of Lucifer. Afterwards they refurne béeing rauiſhed in their Poetical furor & madneſſe, as if they were departed all newly and freſhe. But euen as their dreames are entred by the gate of Iuory, by force of the wing and mouing their chawes and cockſcombes, as the Organ bellowes, ſo doe they go foorth by the very ſame gate.

Thomas.

Let vs then go in by the other gate, and in ſuch fobrietie, that we may know the things, as though we ſaw thē wc our eyes. But who ſhal begin to declare & ſhew it vnto vs? mée thinketh ye Euſebius maketh himſelf ready. Begin then to knocke, & cauſe it to be opened vnto vs?

Euſebius.

I will enter firſt by the olde teſtament.

Hillarius.

But take good héede you lead vs not awrye, and totake the one for the other: For if thou doe erre and go aſtray, we will direct and leave thée into it againe.

Euſebius.

But I will direct and leade you well. 2. Mach. 12. g. 43. Giue eare then vnto that which is written of Iudas Machabens, who ſent to Hieruſalem two thouſande Dragmas of ſtluer, for to be offered for a ſacrifice for the ſinnes of thoſe which were dead. In which place he did well and right. For he had ſome conſideration and pondring of the lyfe that is after this time. For if hee had not thought that thoſe which were ſlaine did yet liue, it had bene ſuper fluous and vaine to make any vow or ſacrifice for them that were dead. But for ſo much as he ſaw that they whiche dyed in the fauour and beléefe of God, are in good reſt & ioy, he thought it to be good and honorable for a reconciling, to doe the ſame for thoſe which were ſlaine, that the offence might be forgiuen. Is it poſſible to finde a terte more cléerer? Wherfore did Iudas Macchabeus ſend ſuch a ſumme of Siluer ye number of two thouſand Dragmas The value of the thouſand Dragmas which are worth a thouſand and two hundreth Crownes, if wee accompt them after our money, if he had not bene certeine, that the offrings and prayers of the lining did profitte the dead?

Theophilus.

Thou doeſt here open vnto vs a goodlye field to diſpute off, and wil eng der to vs many queſtions, the which I will propound vnto thée, and we will declare them at large one after an other, and afterwards we wil iudge in the ende whereto that place can ſerue you, for to proue Purgatory. I doe then firſt demaunde of thée in what reputation thou haſt that bookes of the Macchabees? The authoritie of the bookes of the Machabces. and whether thou do holde them for canonicall, or Apocripha?

Euſebius.

I hold it but for ſuch as it is, that is to ſay, holy, Canonical and allowed of the catholike Church. For is it not conteined in the Bible?

Theopilus

I do not benie but that it is faſtened & ſowed in betwéene or among the bookes of the Greeke and Latin Bible, but it followeth not therefore that it is Canonical, & of ſuch Authority as the others which we haue receiued of the Hebrews, which alwayes haue bene receiued & allowed of all the catholicke Churche, without any contradiction.

Euſebius.

I am not now abaſhed, though you will not receiue the authority of the auncient Doctors, ſith that you are ſo ſhameleſſe, that you dare condempne and reiect the very proper bookes of the holy Scripture. I doe know by experience that you muſt haue a Bible made according or after your owne pleaſure. For you are like vnto the auncient heritickes which will not take out of the holy ſcriptures, but the places whiche they thinke moſte méete and proper for to giue colour to their herefies: and do reiect all the other, as vnworthy of the ſpirite of God. Is not that to great arrogancie, to make the ſpirite of God, & his word to be ſubiect vnto your iudgement? Thou mayſt wel perceiue Thomas, that now they doe féele themſelues muche gréeued, when they are conſtrayned to refuſe the Iudge, vnto whom they haue appealled: and which in ſtéede to be iudged of him, they would iudge him.

Theophilus.

Stay a while

Euſebius.

Thou haſt not yet gotten or obteyned thy ſute. Thinke not that wée are become Papiſtes, ſithens that we haue ſpoken vnto thée: And that we woulde attribute vnto our ſelues authority, power and iudgment aboue the ſpirite of God, as he doth: wée doe leaue that office vnto Antechriſt, to whom alone it apperteineth. We haue not vſed to reproue one onelye ſtllable of the holy Scriptures: But if we diſcerne & put difference betwéene the bookes that are Canonical & thoſe that are Apocripha, thou oughteſt not to accuſe vs Books canonical & Apocripha. therefore, except thou doe, by that ſame reaſon, render culpable of the like crime the auncient Doctors of the Church, chiefely Sainct Hierome, and in like manner your decrées and Canons: whiche doe ſeperate thoſe that are Canonicall from thoſe that bée Apocrapha, amongſt whiche they doe put the bookes of the Machabees.

Euſebius.

I confeſſe that amonge the Iewes, it hathe not bene receiued for Canonicall in theyr Sinagogue: but it hathe not bene therefore reiected of the Church. Wherefore I conclude, that thoſe that beny, that they are not canonicall, are not the ſonnes of the Church; but baſtardes of the Sinagogue.

Hillarius.

Thou haſt at the leaſte kepte that ſame of ccius, Behold one ſhot of his Canons.

Theophilus.

If it be ſo, Wherefore then did not S. Hierom enroul it among the Canonicals, in that prolegne The iudgement of ſaint Hierom touching the bookes of the Machabee . Hiero. Pauli. in whiche be hath recited them all in order? doeſt thou thinke that he would haue rather omitted theſe here, then the other? And in the prologue that hee calleth Galeatus, which he hath ſet before the bookes of the Kings, both hee not make expreſſe mention of thoſe bookes amenge the Apocriphas? and principally of the ſecond out of y which the place by thée alleged is taken? For hee ſaith that hée hath founde the firſt written in Hebrew: But not the ſeconde, the which hath bene onely written in Greeke. The whiche thing, as he ſaith, may proue it ſelfe by the p raſe and manner of the ſpeaking, the which hée vſed. To the which agréeth well that which hee writing againſt the Pelagians, nameth Ioſeph for the author of the hiſtorye Ioſeph y anthor of the bookes of the Machabees of the Machabees, vnderſtanding that by him it was written. Then if by the teſtimonye and witnes of Sainct Hierome, that hiſtory hath bene written by Ioſeph, b ée ought not to eſtéeme it to be of more greater authority, thē the other bookes of Ioſeph, the which we do reade no receiue, The bookes of Ioſeph. as hiſtories, very profitable: But a greate deale wantoth, that we ſhould attribute vnto them ſo much authoritie, as vnto thoſe, the whiche we doe knowe without all doubt, to be y body of y holy Scripture. Therefore ſaid S. Hierome in the Prologne that hee made before the booke of the Prouer es of Salomon: The Church doth read the bookes of the Machabees, but ſhee receineth them net among the Canonical.

Euſebius.

Then wherfore hath Sainct Auguſtin written, De ciui. Dei. li 18. ca. 36 that the Church holdeth them as Canonicall?

Theophilus.

Conſider well how he hath writen in that ſame place which thou alledgeſt, ſpeaking of the number of the times, which haue bene ſithence the returning from Babilon, vntill the comming of Ieſus Chriſte. Did he not write, that the account and number of them, are not found in the holy Scriptures, which are called Canonicall but in the other, among which are the bookes of ye Machabees? Doeſt thou not ſée and perceiue that he ſeperateth thoſe bookes from the body of the holy Scriptures.

Euſebius.

Wherfore doſt thou cut off fthe tayle? why doſt thou not adde, that which followeth afterwardes? The whiche (ſayth hée) the Iewes hold not for Canonical, but the Church doth.

Theophilus.

But doth he not adde by and by the reaſon wherefore, the which ſerueth to my purpoſe?

Euſebius.

Hee ſayth, that it is bicauſe of the vehement Martirs beſcre the comming of Ieſus Chriſt and merueilous paſſions of ſome Martirs, whiche haue fought euen vnto deathe, for the lawe of GOD, before that Ieſus Chriſt came in the fleſhe and ſuffred griefes and horrible torments.

Theophilus.

He vnderſtandeth by thoſe Martirs, the ſeuen brothers of the Machabees, The Machabees 2. Mac. 7. a. 1 Antiochus with their mother, who loued rather that Antiochus ſhoulde diſmember and torment them cruelly, then they would obely his commaundements for to violate the law of God. It is eaſie to vnderſtand by thoſe words, that the Church hath not receiued thoſe bookes, in ſuche authoritie, as thoſe which haue bene holden alwaie sin the Prophetical & Apoſtolical church, nor to be ſufficient, for to allow & confirme, or for to builde any doctrine, which ought to be holē for an article of faith, & for to vanquiſh the hereticks: But only in ſuch ſtéede, as we haue at this day the eccleſiaſtical hiſtories, & legends of martirs: not a heape of fooliſh & fabulous legends, made by a heape of dreaming The legends of Saints Diſt. 15. ca. ſancta. and deceiuing Caphards and Moonks, as are the liues of the fathers, the golden legend, and other like, more worthy to be numbred with the Roman of Fierobras, Orſon, & Valentine, the erring kinghtes, Mandeuill, or the true narrations of Lutian, and others like, made for pleaſure, then among the Eccleſiaſticall hiſtories. But they haue bene in ſuche reputacion among the wiſe men, as the bookes of Ioſephus, Euſebius, Sozomenus, Theodoritus, Socrates, and ſuch other whiche haue written the Eccleſiaſticall hiſtories, and the liues of Martyrs, for to keepe the remembraunce in the Churche, as in a Chornicle for to edifie and comforte with good examples: But not that they are of ſuch authoritie, that they are ſufficient for to ſette foorth anye newe doctrine, of whiche wee haue no certeine witnes in the Apooſtlicall doctrine. And that it is euen ſo as I doe ſaye, I will not proue it by anye other witnes, then by the ſame whiche thou bringeſt foorth againſt mee: That is to ſaye, Sainct Auguſtin, who hath written in an other place after this manner, ſaying: The Iewes haue not the ſcripture of the Machabees, as the Law, the Prophets and Pſalmes, to the which the Lord Ieſus rendereth witnes, as vnto this witneſſes, ſaying: All muſt bee fulfilled whiche are written of mée in the Luc. 24. g. 44. Law of Moſes and in the Prophets nad in the Pſalmes. But that Scripture is receiued of the Churche, not without profit, if one doe reade and marke it ſoberly. Doth hée not euidentlye declare by thoſe wordes, howe muche the authoritie of the ſame is abaſed in compariſon of the others, the whiche Ieſus Chriſte taketh for witneſſes? Aſmuche maye one gather out of an olde booke, whiche contayneth the expoſition of the Créede, and beareth the title of Sainct Cyprian. Hée plainelye ſheweth that that booke holdth no palce in the auncient Churche. Wherefore it is almoſte folly to ſtriue and fight ſo long time, if it were not, but that our aduerſaries doe make the poore ignoraunt people beléeue, that it is of the holy Scripture, and that we doe deny it. After that ſorte haue bene allowed The Canons the Apoſtles. Dſti. 16. caſex againta. & can canoner propter. ſome bookes, called the Canons o the Apoſtles, the whiche ſome among the auncients, and among the Popes and counſels haue bene holden ſome for Canonical, and others for Apocripha, bicauſe that they doe ſerue in many thinges confirmable to the Apoſtolicall doctirne: but they were not bound vnto them, as vnto the holy Scriptures, whiche they cannot reiect, as they haue done often times, when they haue found, any Canon, whiche ſéemeth much to differ from the Apoſtolicall doctirne. Euen ſo maye we do of the bookes of the Machabees. We may wel draw out of them examples, for to exhorte the faithfull vnto paclence, conſtancy and Martirdome, propounding and declaring vnto them the vertue and the faith of that good mother, with hir ſeuen ſonnes, who ſtoode ſo conſtantlye vnto death, for to mainteine the Lawe of Gode, who had not yet neuertheleſſe ſuch an occaſion to doe that, as we, whiche haue more ſure and certeine witneſſes of the reſurrection and of examples more euident, aſwell in Ieſus Chriſt as in his Apoſtles & dyſciples, then they had, And ſo ſaid S. Augſtyne. But it followeth not therfore that Diſt. 16. ca. none. Gloſ. at touching the doctrine which concerneth the faith and religion, they ſhould be with equall authority with the others. And therefore the gloſe made vpon the decrée recyſith them among the Apocripha.

Euſebius.

I woulde gladly that thou wouldeſt declare vnto mée a litle more plainely, what thou vnderſtandeſt by the Canonicals and Apocripha.

Theophilus.

I doe call canonicall, all the bookes of The e onicall bookes. the new teſtament the whiche wée haue: and of the doe, in like manner, all thoſe whiche are conteyned in the Hebrwe. Bible, the which we haue receiued of the holy Prophets and true ſeruaunts of God, and whoſe authors are certeine and knowen. And we doe cal them Canonicall, which ſignifieth aſmuch as rules, bicauſe they are of an infallible veritie, & a certeine & ſure rule whiche is giuen vs of god, for to ruel & examine al other doctrine, & to proue the ſpirites whelter they are of God, and for to liue according to the ſame.

Euſebius.

And what vnderſtandeſt thou by Apocripha? Apocrypha. Theophilus. Apocripha, ſignifieth a thing hid, ſecret or obſcure, which hath no ſure or certein author: or which is not alowed as are y bokes, to y title is applies & made at, which are not ſufferable, but inſomuch as their doctrin is confirmable vnto that of Canonicalls, the which ought to be ruled by them. And they haue no firme authoritie but that which thoſe doe giue vnto it. For in ſteede that we may take a ſure foundation and buylding, vppon any place taken out of the Canonicalls, we cannot doe it in thoſe heere, if they haue not alreadye their foundation on the other. They haue not bene called Apocrypha, bicauſe that it was not lawfull to haue them in ones lybrary, and to reade them with iudgement, for ones profite. For that was not forbidden. But haue taken that name, bicauſe that they were not of ſuch authoritie, ye one ſhould holde them for a ſure and infallible doctrine of the church of God: And they were not red and expounded openly in the ſame, and with ſuch authoritie, as thoſe which without doubt were holden for the certeyne worde of God, to the which we are bounde to beléeue, and to ſubmit & put our iudgement vnder them, not to eleuate it aboue them, or to iudge them by the other bookes, which ought to bée ſubiect vnto them.

Euſebius.

And wherefore haue ſome of them more that authoritie then the others?

Theophilus.

Bicauſe that of the one we are cert eyne, which are the pure wordes of God: but not of the others, but to the contrary.

Euſebius.

By what meanes? Is it not bicauſe the Churche hath allowed them and not the other. Now ſith that their authority dependeth of the authority of ye church if ſhee doe receine theſe here as the Canonicall, & maketh them of equall authoritie, wherefore ſhall not they bée in the ſame degree?

Theophilus.

I doe beleeue that thou doeſt thinke that the church hath accuſtomed to legittimate the bookes, as Vnto whom the iudgement of the ſcriptures do appertcine the Pope doth legittimate his baſtardes. The Popiſhe church may well take in, hande that, but that is not the propertie of ye of Ieſus Chriſt. And although ſhe woulde Legitimation. legittimate them, yet they muſt be takē as baſtards legitimated by the Pope, which cannot be notwithſtanding borne in lawfull maryage, but do abide alwayes baſtards and ſonnes of fornication, How can the daughter engender and beget hir Mother, or hir Father. Howe can the The authoritie of the Church. Church giue authoritie to the woorde of God, who of the ſame receyueth hirs, and of the ſame is begotten and borne? Of whome receiueth the Sunne his brightneſſe? Doth hée receiue it of men, whome hee illuminateth and lighteth?

Euſebius.

No. But on the contrary men of it.

Theophilus.

Is it cléere and ſhining bicauſe that men doe iudge and confeſſe it to bée ſuch?

Euſebius.

No. But bicauſe that it is ſuch, the men that doe ſée it, and haue the experience are conſtrayned to acknowledge and confeſſe it to bée ſuch.

Theophilus.

Thou meaneſt notwithſtandinge that the Sunne ſhould bee cleere and giue light, bicauſe that men doe thincke it to bée ſo.

Euſebius.

Thou doeſt mée wrong to impute vnto mée that which I neuer ſpake, but altogether contrarye.

Theophilus.

Thou haſt ſayd it, by other wordes. Whereby thou doeſt not perceiue thy ſelfe. For when The authoritie of the ſcripture thou ſaydeſt, that the holy Scripture taketh hys authoritie of the church, thou ſayeſt that men do giue lyght and cléereneſſe vnto the Sun. For as Dauid doth wytneſſe, the word of the Lord is pure & cléere, that is ye light which giueth Pſa. 19 c 9 light vnto the eyes, & giueth wiſdome vnto babes. It is then certeyne and true, not bycauſe the Church iudgeth it ſuch, but it iudgeth it ſuch bicauſe that it is ſo, and cannot iudge of it otherwyſe, no more then he which hath cléere eyes can iudge of the lyght of the Sunne, of whiche the blinde perſon is not capable. Wherefore hée cannot iudge, no more then the Infidells and reprohate can iudge of the woorde of God, nor allowe it. Then thou mayſt by this vnderſtand, that the certeynetye, veritie and firmeneſſe doth not depende vppon mans opinion and iudgement, but vppon the holy Ghoſt, and of the proper force vertue and effectes by which it doth verifie it ſelfe, and compelleth the faythfull heartes to allow and receiue it as the lyght of the Sunne doth the eies. For the ſheepe doe heare and vnderſtand the ſhepeartes voyce, but not that of the ſtraungers. And all that that the Prophetes haue forſhewed and taught, the Apoſtles in lyke manner, haue bene verified and authoryſed by the vertue of him which hath ſpoken in them, inſomuch that all the worlde cannot reſiſt it. Nowe wée cannot ſaye ſhe lyke of the bookes of the Machabees, chiefely of the ſeconde. Firſt, for that it is not founde in the Hebrewe, and that the ſtile of the ſame witneſſeth The ſeconde bookes of the Machabees. cléerely, that it was firſt made in Greeke, and was not tranſlated frō the Hebrew tongue into the Greeke tongue. We may take it for a certeyne rule, that it hath not belfe written by any Prophet, or man worthy to bee accompted for ſuch a one. For the Prophets haue wrytten in their proper language, to wit, Hebrew, or in the language of the The ſangnage of the Prophets Chaldees, ſithence the time of the captinite of Babilon. Furthermore, it is eaſye to knowe, that that booke hath bene written longe time after the retourne of the people of Iſraell into Hieruſalem, and the age of Eſdras, Nehemias, The laſt Prophets. Aggeus, Zachary & Malachy, ſithence which, wée do not read, that the people of God haue had any Prophet that hath written any thing: nor other bookes, of a certeyne and autenticke authour. Wherefore by. good ryght, this héere is accompted for Apocrypha. And although there were no other reaſon, for to diminiſhe his authoritye, but the excuſe whiche the authour of the ſayde booke made in the ende of his worke, that ought to ſuffice thée. Reade the laſte Chapter and thou ſhalte ſée it by experience. If hée had béne certeyne thorowe the ſpiryte of GOD, that all that whiche hée hath written, procéeded from him, as the Prophetes and Apoſtles haue done, wherefore ſhoulde hée excuſe himſelfe both of the ſtile, of The authoritie of the Prophets and Apoſtles the manner of writinge and of the faultes that he myght haue committed? If hée had bene alwayes inſpired with the ſame ſpirite, by which the Prophets and Apoſtles haue ſpoken, he would haue ſpoken ſurely and in the authority of God, as thoſe who without excuſinge themſelues haue ſayd: The Lorde hath ſpoken it. And Sainct Paul with what authoritie ſpeaketh hee affirming that the Goſpell whiche hee hath preached was ſo certeyne, that although Gal. 1, b. 8 an Angell came downe from heauen, for to bringe anye other vnto you, he ought not to bée receiued, but accurſed. Learne then Euſebius to diſcerne the bookes of the holye Scripture, form the others: and thinke not that the church hath holden for Canonicall, that ſeconde booke of the Machabees, but as a booke which was not altogether to bée reiected, and of which it might ſerue the Church, for declaration of the Scriptures, bicauſe of the hiſtories conteyned in the ſame, whiche doe giue a certeine openinge, for the intelligence of the antiquitie, as the hiſtories of Ioſeph doe. Yet neuertheleſſe if one marke them well, it ſhall be eaſle to iudge, that the firſt and the ſecond are not all of one authour: not onely by the diuerſitie of the ſtile, 〈◊〉 alſo bicauſe that in the ſecond, are reiterated ſome biſtories, and many things which already haue bene intreales •• in the firſt, and a great deale better then they are in this. If one doe finde in any other booke worthy to bée credited of the olde or newe Teſtament, any like place vnto that which thou haſt alledged, the argument ſhould haue ſome colour by the ſhewe that the other would giue vnto it. But foraſmuch as it is alone, his witneſſe is not ſufficient, as it ſhoulde bée in the one of the others. For God is as much to bée beléeued by one onely witneſſe as The vvſtneſſe of God. by a thouſand: where a thouſand witneſſes of men, without the ſame of God, ought not to bolde any place in the religion, But ſithence, that the ſuperſtition of the ſuffrages & prayers: for the dead hath begunne to haue crept into the Churche, thys booke alſo hath begunne to take greate authorytie, in ſuche ſorte that it oftener is reade and ſonge in the Popiſhe Churche, then thoſe that cont yned more ſurer doctrine. And thu oughteſt alſo to vnderſtand, that the auncients haue ſometime put a difference betweene y Canonical, Apocrypha & Eccleſiaſticall bookes, as it appeareth by the authour whiche hath expounded, the Creede the which ſome doe thinke that it was Saint Cyprian: other that it was Ruffin. But whoſoeuer if were of them both, they are both of them very auncient, and haue deuyded thoſe bookes after that ſorte: Yée muſt know (ſaith he) that thée be other bokes after the Canonicall, which are not called of the auncients & of our prede •••• ors Canonicall, but C •• leſſaſticall: as are the wiſdome of Salomon, and the other wyſedome, which is called Ieſus the ſonne of Syrach, the which booke is among the Latins, by that generall tytle called Eccleſſaſticus, by the which woorde the author of the booke is not named but the quantie of the Scripture. The booke of Toby is of the ſame order, and of Iudith, and the bookes of the Machabees: the which they would that they ſhould bée all read in the Church, but they would not that they ſhould haue bene ſettle foorth, for to con •• rme the authoritie of the fayth by them. The other Scriptures, they haue called Apocrypha: the which they woulde not that they ſhoulde be read in the Churche. Thou 〈◊〉 ſée héere moſt playnelye, howe that they doe attribute more authoritie vnto the Canonicall Scriptures then vnto the Eccleſlaſticall Scriptures: and vnto the Eccleſſaſtical more then vnto the Apocryph : but they haue not yet neuertheleſſe eſtéemed thoſe Eccleſlaſſaſtical (which they haue many times called apocrypha) of equall and ſuch authoritie, as the diuine scriptures: nor they haue called them Eccleſlaſticall for that cauſe, but bicauſe that they were in ſuch reputation, that one niyght reade and ſigne them in the Churche (the w •••• was not permitted in the auncient Churche) or bicauſe that theyr antiquitie or holyneſſe of their authours added vnto them a yttle more authoritie then vnto the other.

Thomas.

By that accompte Euſebius then ſhall bée vnweapened of his principall ſtaffe that hée thought to haue.

Euſebius.

If they would after that ſort make the bookes eyther Canonicall or Apocripha at theyre pleaſure: it is méere folly to diſputs with them. For all thoſe which bée not to their mindes ſhall be Apocrypha.

Theophilus.

If thou wilt not be confen ed with the reaſons by me alledged, go and plead againſt Sainct Hierome Ad Chroma. diſt 5. ca. ſācta. and your decrees. If the auncients had not vſed iudgemēt and wiſdome, how many bookes would the hereticks haue brought into the Church vnder the name of the Prophets, Apoſtles and of their Diſciples: The which they haue re •• cſed them, following that ſame rule, which I haue giuen vnto thée: as it appeareth by your decrees, which are a great rolle of them. But I wil yet do more, to the ende I leaue the not an occaſion, to be miſcontented wc me. I am content, by way of diſputation, to put the caſe that y booke ſhould be autentick & of a diuine authoritie. And although The place of the Machabees ſerueth nothing at all for Purg ory. it were ſo, it would ſerue thée yet neuertheleſſe nothing at all for to proue that there is a Purga ory, & that we muſt offer for the dead, to ſuch intent, and in ſuch ſort, as you do make it, And for to declare this vnto thée more plainly, I demaund of thée, for to begin firſt ou matter, in what time was that made, which the hiſtory conteineth? was it before the cōming of our Lord Ieſus Chriſt, or afterwards?

Euſebius.

Before.

Theophilus.

Tell me moreouer, was Purgatory before the comming of Chriſt. the Purgatorye in that time, ſuch as thou beléeueſt it is now?

Euſebius.

There is no doubt of it.

Theophilus.

Sith that it is ſo, tell mée, what ſoules went thether? For eyther it muſt bée altogether emptie and voide, or elſe it muſt be that ſome went thether, eyther thoſe of the elect & faithfull, or thoſe of the Infidels and reprobate. Now I do not thinke, that thou wilt ſay, that the Purgatory was for the Infidels and reprobate.

Euſebius.

One may ſo iudge by that which is written Luc. 16. c. 19. of the wicked rich man.

Theophilus.

Sith then that hell was for the reprobate, it followeth then neceſſarily, that the ſoules of the elect ſhoulde goe into Purgatorye. If it hée ſo, to what ende ſerueth the Limbe? For you The Limbe. doe ſaye, that all the Patriarches, Prophetes and true faythfull, whiche are departed out of this worlde before the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſte, were there kepte and deteyned, and they coulde not goe into Paradiſe, vntyll ſuch time as Ieſus Chriſte had ſatyſfied for them. Wherefore I doe conclude, accordinge to your doctrine, eyther that the Limbe and Purgatorye were all one place and lodginge, or elſe that the one of them two was voyde and ſuperſ uous: or that there was but one, or for to ſpeake the truth, neyther the one nor the other. For if the Limbe were for to receiue the faythfull that dyed in the fayth of the promyſe made vnto Abraham, what néede was there anye more of Purgatorye? bad they not Purgatorye ſuffycient inough in the Limbes? Were they not ſufficientlye tormented to bée excluded from Paradiſe, and depryued from the ioyes thereoff, and from the fruytion of the glorye of GOD, as you doe affirme? For what more greater torment can a faythfull man haue then to bee depryued from ſuche a good thinge? That is not onely a Purgatorye, but a very hell.

Euſebius.

I do know, that in hearing thée ſpeake, that thou, which wouldeſt teache others, art yet in greater ignoraunce, and that thou vnderſtandeſt verye euyll this matter. The Limbe then, was for thoſe which were in ſuch eſtate, as thoſe are nowe, which haue finiſhed their penaunce, and haue made entire and whole ſatiſfaction for their ſinnes in this world, which doe go ſtrayght waye into Paradyſe, ſauinge that thoſe there cannot yet enter, bicauſe that the doore was ſhutte, vntyll that Ieſus Chriſt came to open it, and to breake the gates of Hell.

Theophilus.

Wherefore was the Purgatorye? Had it in it yet a certeyne other ſorte of ſoules and of an other condytion, then thoſe which went into the Limbes?

Euſebius.

Yea. For thou mayſt well vnderſtande, that all the faythfull, which haue procéeded and bene before The reaſon vppon which Purgatory is builded. the comminge of our Lorde Ieſus Chriſte, haue not all of them bene ſo holy and ſo perfect, as the Patriarches and Prophetes. Wherefore it were no reaſon, that incontinently after they are deade they ſhoulde receyue as much felicytie as they, wythout they doe firſt accompliſhe and ende their penaunce in Purgatorye, and ſatyſfie for their ſinnes: the which they haue not done in thys world, as the holy Patriarches and Prophets haue done: or otherwyſe GOD ſhoulde not bée iuſte. For what reaſon is it, that hée whiche hath lyued in all viees and ſinnes all the time of this lyfe vntyll the laſte tyme of hys death, in whiche gée hath had repentaunce of hys ſinnes, and hath aſked mercye of God, ſhoulde haue no more gréeuous puniſhment, but ſhould receiue as great reward, as he which al his life time hath ſerued God faithfully and hath alwayes lyued in holyneſſe, righteouſneſſe and innocencie.

Theophilus.

Take héede thou doe not blaſpheme God, and doe imurye vnto his grace and mercye. For I doe greatly feare but that thou wilt bée like vnto the brother of the prodigall childe, who was enuious againſt his Hipocrites enuious of the grace of God Luc. 15. g. 28. Examples of ye mercy of God. brother, and murmured againſt his father, béeing angrye at the gentle receiuing and of the grace and fauour that hee dyd vnto his ſonne, whome he had recoured, béeing reduced and brought into the right way: or leaſt that thou be one of the companions of thē which were hired to work in ye vineyard, which did murmure againſt the good man of the houſe, bicauſe y he did giue as much wages vnto thoſe whom he called at ye eleuenth houre, & a little before night, for to work in his vineyard, as vnto thoſe whō hée appointed from the morning which haue borne the burthen and heate of the day. Wherfore doſt thou not accuſe our Lord Ieſus Chriſt, who hath aunſwered vnto that poore theefe who dyd hange vppon the Croſſe •• yth him: This daye ſhalt thou bée with mée in Paradiſe? What good déedes Lu . 23. l. 4 . had hée done before? Art thou enuious of the grace which God doth vnto the poore ſinners?

Euſebius.

God forbid. But we muſt vnderſtand, that as God is mercifull, ſo is hée righteous. And if the théefe which was crucified with Ieſus Chriſt had had that priuiledge, it followeth not therefore, that all haue Priuiledge the lyke, or that they ought to haue it. For as the lawe makers doe ſay: the priuiledges of a fewe, are not common lawes to all men.

Theophilus.

If that théefe hath receiued ſo greate goodneſſe by one ſingular priuiledge, I doe aunſwere vnto thée further, that none is ſaued but by priuiledge.

For all wée haue meryted eternall dampnation, of our Saluation by priuiledge Rom. 3. 9. nature. Inaſmuch then as wée be ſaued, that is, thorow a ſingular priuiledge, which is giuen of God vnto the elect by Ieſus Chriſt, which is not common vnto the reprobate.

Euſebius.

There is yet an other reaſon, wherefore that théeſe went ſtraight into Paradiſe, wythout paſſinge by the fire and the paines of Purgatorye: that is, bicauſe that he had alreadye done his penaunce in Payne for ſatiſfaction. this world, and hath ſatiſfied for his ſinnes.

Theophilus.

What penaunce or ſatiſfaction coulde hée haue made? For the theftes and murthers for which hée was hanged on the Gybet.

Euſebius.

But it was the paine that hée endured and ſuffered, and the death that he hath receiued for his demerites.

Theophilus.

As much did his companion ſuffer which was hanged on the left hande: but yet neuertheleſſe his torments haue ſerued him nothing at all, and hée dyd not heare ſuch promiſe of Ieſus Chriſt as the other.

Euſebius.

Bicauſe that hée dyd not take his death and torment quyetly and patientlye, and hath not beléeued in Ieſus Chriſte and demaunded pardon of hys ſinnes as his companion did.

Theophilus.

Thou alwayes commeſt vnto my compt, and thou ſhalt hée compelled to confeſſe that there is nothinge which was the cauſe of his ſaluation but the faith which he had in Ieſus Chriſt, and the mercy of God, The only death of Ieſus Chriſt doth ſatisfie. which hée hath obteyned by the ſame, without that that God had regard neither to his dignitie or worthineſſe, nor vnto his workes, but vnto Ieſus Chriſte his ſonne, for whoſe loue he hath pardoned him, not for the forment and death, which the théeſe hath ſuffred, and the ſatiſfaction that he could doe vnto him, but for the forment, death and paſſion which Ieſus Chriſt hath ſuffred & the ſatiſfaction that he hath made for him, the which Sainct Cyprian hath Cypr. lib. 4. de bapiſmo l . ſent 4. diſt. 4. ſunt. well vnderſtanded, of whom the witnes is alleged by the maiſter of the ſentences. For although all the deathes and forments that all men haue euer ſuffred, Patriarkes, Prophets and Apoſtles, Martirs and confeſſors ſhould be put together, they ſhould not be ſufficient, for to put out the leaſt ſinne in the world. For God doth not take onlye for ſatiſfaction, the torment, but regardeth the worthynes of the perſon, of which he receaueth the raunſome, the whiche was not found ſufficient, but in Ieſus Chriſt. Or otherwiſe if the torment which man doth ſuffer, were approued and allowed of God for ſatiſfaction, and cauſe to auoyd the paines of Purgatory, there ſhoulde bee no men more happier and bleſſed then the théeues, murtherers, brigandes and other malefactors, which are executed by Iuſtice. And there would bee, none which would not but become a théeſe or murtherer, or to cōmit ſome fault wor thy of death for to be executed thorow Iuſtice, to auoide ye paines of Purgatory. For if the doctrine of your diuines be true, ye fire of Purgatory ſurmounteth al the paine, that a The greatnes of the paynes of Purgatory. man can ſuffer in this life, and it is ſo hot and burning, that the viſible and materiall fire of this world, is but as a painted fire in compariſon of that ſame.

Hillarius.

I cannot vnderſtand in what place of the holy Diſt. 25. ca. Apoſtolus. Tho. 4. diſt. 21. a . 1. Ric. 4. diſt. 20. arg. 2. A ber. 7. li. com theo. ca. 2. Bona. 4. diſt. 18 Plutar. l . de ſera. numi. vind. ſcripture they haue ſéene that, I woulde rather beleeue that they haue learned it of Plutarch, who hath witten, that the dolors and paines of Purgatory are ſo great and ſo cruell, that there is aſmuche difference betwéene them, and thoſe that wee do ſuffer in our body, and in the fleſh, as there is difference, betwéene that which happeneth vnto vs in dreaming, and that which happeneth vnto vs waking: In ſomuch that all that whiche we doe ſuffer in this worlde, is but as a dreame in the reſpecte of the ſame. Fable of Gregory. Bart. fer. 4. heb. 4. quadrag. Ser, de poen. purg. Wherfore if the fable that the Theologians haue reherſed of Sainct Gregory be true, I ſhal not be abaſhed, that hee had rather chooſe (when the Aungell did giue vnto him the choyce of two things) to be in paine and ſickenes all his life then two daies in Purgatory, bicauſe that hée prayed for Traianus, and deliuered him from hell. For although that he complained in his Epiſtles, that hée is ſo much gréeuid with diſeaſes, and ſo great dolours, that his life is vnto him nothing but paine, yet neuertheles it is verye caſle in compariſon to be a quarter of an houre in Purgatory.

Thomas.

To what purpoſe hath the Angell giuen vnto him to chooſe one of thoſe two paines? By doing good, ought euill to happen vnto him? Hath hée fetched out Traianus, from hell againſt Gods will? If our Prieſtes had ſuch a payment, for to drawe ſoules out of Purgatorye; I belaue that they would not be very much hotte after their maſſes.

Hillarius.

It were neceſſary that ſithens they haue begunne the fable, to ende it, for to make it accorde and Fable of Theſeus and Pyrothus Verg. Aene. 6. agrée with that of Theſeus and Pyrothus, who as the Poetes do witnes are puniſhed in the hells bicauſe that they woulde take awaye Proſerpina maugre the God Pluto.

Theophilus.

Difference bevveene the fire of purgatory & of hell. Ric. 4. diſt. 20. arg. 2. Bonau n. 4. diſt. 18. Albet. 7. li. com pe. tha. ca. 2. Thom. 4. diſt. 21. arg. 1. & 3 er. q. 46. ar. 6. That is yet nothing in compariſon to that yt I haue ſaid. They do kindle that fire more. For they do affirme, that the ſame of Purgatory, and that of hell is al one, and that there is none other difference, but that the ſame of hell is eternall touching his office, but the ſame of Purgatory, is not but as touching his ſubſtaunce, bicauſe that the ſoules go out ſome time. Wherefore they do conclude that not onely the paine of Purgatorye is the moſte gréenous that euer was, but whiche is more. Thomas of Aquin hath written that that paine excéedeth and ſurmounteth the dolours & torments which Ieſus Chriſt hath ſuffred in his death and paſſion. What blaſphemy can be more greater? For what hell can be more truell then that which Ieſus Chriſte hath ſuffred for vs, when hee take vpon him the curſſe due for our ſinnes, for to deliuer vs?

Thomas.

Do they not alledge ſome place of the holye Scripture, for to proue that?

Hillarius.

Barl. ſerm de p na Purg. example Anto. par. ſū. Where ſhal they finde it? their probatien is an example which they do commonly put foorth and propounde taken out of the chronicles of the Iacobins, of a Frier of that order who appeared vnto a very friende of his, by whom beeing aſked of the paines of Purgatorye, aunſwered that if all the world and all the viſible things were on fire and did burne, yet it could not be compared, to the paine and beate of Purgatorye: boſt thou not thinke that the probation is worthy of ſuch Theologians.

Euſebius.

Although that there were no Scripture, & that we had but our naturall ſence the which God hath giuen Mans reaſon ye foundacion of Purgatory. vnto vs, yet wee might well iudge that it is conuenient and neceſſarie that there be a Purgatorye, in whiche the ſinful men may he puniſhed, for thoſe ſinnes of which they haue not ended their penaunce. For it is not written with out cauſe: Nullum malum impunitum: Nullum bonum irrenumeratum. That is, ther is none euil which ſhal not be vnpaniſhed, nor no goodnes which ſhal not be vnrewarded.

Theophilus.

Although that thoſe wordes are not reryted in the ſcripture, after that manner as thou dooſt receyte them, yet neuertheles. I am content to allow it to be true. I doe not deny, but that God is as iuſt as he is merciful. The Iuſtice and mercy of God. For otherwiſe he could not be God. But we ought to conſider, by what meanes he doth exerciſe his iuſtice & mercie towards vs. There is no doubt, but ye our ſinnes do deſerue Eſa. 9. b. 6 Iohn. 3. d. 34. Rom. 3. 24. Gala. 3. d. 2 . great puniſhmēt. And therfore hath he giuē vnto vs Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne, & hath deliuered him to death for vs, that our miſdéeds ſhould be puniſhed in him, & that he do ſatiſfie for vs to his ſouereigne iuſtice, for to obteine of him grace & mercy in his name. Thou ſeeſt thē yt there is none Punishment for ſinnes. euil which is not vnpuniſhed, for to ſatiſfie ye rightouſnes & iuſtice of god: but ther is differēce in ye māner of puniſhing For •• he that hath b ne the euil beleeueth in Ieſus Chriſt, and hath full hope and truſt that thorow his death & paſſion he hath obtayned of God pardon and remiſſion of his ſinnes, thorow that ſaith, he is the true member of Ieſus Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12 Iohn. 15. Gala. 3. •• Chriſt, and adopted for the ſonne of God. If hee bee a true member of Ieſus Chriſt, and a true childe of God, hée & his ſinnes are puniſhed in Ieſus Chriſte, who for that cenſe, hath borne the iudgement and turſſe of God, for all the elect. But if the ſinner bee an Infidell, and whiche hath no parte with Ieſus Chriſt, the wrath of God falleth Iohn. 3. d. 36 vppon him and he cannot eſcape the Iudgement of God, but that his ſinne be puniſhed in himſelfe, in hell fire. And euen as our euill deedes are puniſhed in Ieſus Chriſt, ſo are our good déedes rewarded in him, and by him allowed The revvard of good deades. of the celeſtiall Father, which crowneth his good works in vs. For nothing pleaſeth him but Ieſus Chriſt his welbeloued ſonne, in whom he deliteth, and no workes Mat. 3. ••• can be found agréeable, but his. For there is no goodneſſe but in him. Wherefore if we will haue any good thing in vs, we muſt ſéeke borrow it of him. And if we will that our works be pleaſing vnto God, it is neceſſary that Ieſus Chriſt do them in vs thorow his holy ſpirite: or otherwiſe, the heauenly father cannot allow nor receiue them for good, nor yet giue vnto them reward.

Euſebius.

I doe greately doubt, that in magnifiyng ſo much the grace and mercy of God, and the efficacie of the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſte, you giue occaſion vnto many to doe euill, without euer caring to do any good workes: For if that men haue once this opinion, that they are ſaued thorow the onelye grace and mercye of God, and that they cannot merite paradiſe by their good works, what néede they care to do any good déedes if it doth not ſerue them no more then the euill?

Theophilus.

I do feare moreouer, that the doctrin which thou holdeſt, doth induce and leade them vnto that which Purgatory the nourſe of ſinne. thou ſayeſt For how many hath there bene, who hauing that opinion to ſatiſfie in Purgatorye for their ſinnes, haue giuen themſelues vnto al vices, during their life, hoping that they will prouide ſo well to their affaires, that for golde and ſiluer, they ſhalbe incontinentlye deliuered from the paines of Purgatory after they be dead? And ſo by that meanes they did thinke, that it was not néedefull to ſtudye to doe good workes. For they did hope to finde in their purſe all that that ſhoulde bée néedefull for theyr ſaluation. But for aſmuche as it is a queſtion touchinge Good vvorkes. good workes, whom doeſt thou thinke can doe them beſt, eyther the ſeruant which laboreth thorow feare and compulſion, who would doe no laboure if he feared not to be beaten of his maſter, or if hée hoped not but to receiue a good rewarde: or the ſonne, who thorow an entier loue towards his father, and taketh pleaſure in none other thing, but to ſerue and honoure him wel, bicauſe of the natural loue that he beareth vnto him, and of the knowledge that he hath of the great goodnes and benefits that he hath re •• ed and doth receiue daily of him, without any ſeruile feare, but onelye for the reuerence and good affection that he hath towards him?

Euſebius.

There is no doubt, that thoſe whiche ſerue onely for feare to be puniſhed, or for hope of rewarde, cannot ſerue faithfully nor lawfully: but are as the ſeruaunts which ſerue to pleaſe the eye, and do good ſeruice whileſt Collo. 3. d. 22. that the maſter is preſent: notwithſtanding they haue no good will towards him.

Theophilus.

Yet neuertheles thoſe which do follow the VVorkes, Hipocrites. doctrine, the which thou holdeſt, are altogether like vnto thoſe here. For either they do giue themſelues altogether to their pleaſures and delites, hoping that they will ſatiſfie by money for their ſinnes, and redéeme themſelues? or if they ſtudie to doé well, they doe it not but thorow feare, as a ſubiect doth ſerue a Tyraunt, fearing o fall into his hands: or as Merconaries & Hirelings, not for the loue they haue to god, but for the loue they haue to themſelues. And ſo by that meanes, eyther they do make GOD The God of the Hipocrites like vnto a cruel Tyraunt, or to a polling Iudge & théefe, who for money abſolueth the euill doers, and as a companion of théeues, taketh his parte of the hootie with them: or els they make themſelus god, & doe worſhip the workes of their handes, ſith that by them they do ſaue themſelues, and merite Paradiſe. Wherefore they haue no néede of Ieſus Chriſt. I demaund of thee, which art but a ſinful man, if thou wouldſt take for a true friend a man which ſhould do vnto thée ſeruice only for y feare that he hath of thée, leaſt thou ſhouldeſt do vnto him hurt? or for hope that he ſhould haue to feare thée better, wout which hee would make none accompt of thée, nor would not ſet by thée? Euſebius. I would holde him for a true freind of the kitchin, Friendes of the kitchin. which loueth more his belly thē me, of whō he is a friend, & not of me.

Theophilus.

And yet neuertheles, if thou doſt wel conſider the nature of the Hipocrits, & Phariſes, who do attribute ſomuch vnto their workes, thou ſhouldeſt finde them of ſuch an amitye towardes God, for whoſe loue they doe not that they do, but for the loue of thē ſelues: and doe not ſerue god, but after y manner as the beaſtes do ſerue men, or for the feare that they haue to be beaten, or for the nurriſhment and foode that they doe receiue. But without ſtaying our ſelues anye longer vppon that pointe, let vs returne vnto our talke of the Limbe: ſith that thou putteſt the Limbe for the one, and Purgatory for the other, what difference doſt thou put betweene thoſe which were in the Limbe, and thoſe which were in Purgatory, ſith that the one and the other, according to your doctrine, were depriued of the fruition of God? I doe greatly feare, that in the ende thy Limbe and Purgatorie will become hell For if the holy fathers, aſwell Patriarkes as Prophets, were depriued from ſuch a goodnes, wherein did they differ from the dampned & And in like Difference betweene the L •• he. Purgatory and hell. manner thoſe whom thou ledgeſt in Purgatorye, what néed haue they of any more greater tormēt, or of any other fire, for to torment them? And what ſolace can they haue more then y damned, if they were depriued frō y loves of Paradiſe. and yet beſides that, to bee deteined in the fire? Hillarius. But at that time, for that there was no Maſſe nor papiſtical Prieſts, for to pray and do ſacrifices for the dead they ſhould continue a long time in thoſe paines & torments. And which is more, ſith that in that time, none could enter in Paradiſe, when they had accompliſhed the time of their paines in Purgatorye, whether went they, when they departed from thence? They could not but departe from one hell, for to go into an other, that is to ſay, from purgatory to the Limbe: where they were compelled to abide alwayes locked faſt, in the priſons of Purgatory, vntill the comming of Ieſus Chriſt.

Theophilus.

For to ſpeake the truth, I finde no great difference, betweene hell and thoſe other two lodgings.

Euſebius.

But there is great difference. For theſe here do hope to come once vnto the eternall felicitie, from y which the dampned are altogether depriued.

Theophilus.

There is then none other difference, but that the one are defeined and kept in hell, and dampned for euer: the others are not but for a time. And ſo your Limbe, and Purgatory ſhal be in nothing different from the hell of the Origeniſtes and Catabaptiſtes, who were The hell of the Origeniſts and Catabaptiſts in this fooliſh and falſe opinion, that there is neither man nor diuell dampned perpetually, but that all thoſe whiche are deteyned in hell, after a long ſpace of time, ſhalbe deliuered, & finally all ſaued.

Thomas.

Now bare they ſay y, ſith y the holy ſcripture witneſſeth ſo euidentlye, that the Eſa. •• . g. 24 Mat. 25. d. 46 Mar 9. 8. 48. Apo. 14. c. l. paines of hel are eternall & y our lord Ieſus Chriſt called y hel fire, eternall & inextinguible?

Theophilus.

What other reaſons haue y heriticks, for to fight againſt y veritie thē their humain opiniōs? or ſome place of y holy ſcripture, depraued & corrupted by their falſe vnderſtanding? They haue no building or foūdatiō but y it is eaſie to ouerthrow. But we haue not now to diſpute againſt thoſe olde Origeniſtes, which are rayſed vp againe of y Catabaptiſtes, y which are already vāquiſhed ynough, but we haue to work againſt the papiſtes, whō by good right we may cōpare vnto thoſe, & cal thē new Origeniſtes aſwel as y Catabaptiſts There is no difference, but that the Catabaptiſtes are not ſo much couered and diſguiſed, and that they do rayſe vp againe too openly the olde errors and hereſies, ye which are taken all readye for condempned. But the Papiſtes haue found an other maſke, and an other manner to procéede, by which Sathan in them, hath founde the meanes to redreſſe and amende that bell of the Origeniſtes, in dyſguiſing onely a little the building after an other ſort. For when all ſhalbe well conſidered, I knowe not wherein thoſe whom you lodge in the Limbe and Purgatory doe differ, from thoſe whom ye Origeniſtes and Catabaptiſtes did hold and accompt for dampned: except you will ſaye, that the paine and hell of the one, continueth more then of the other.

Euſebius.

There is a great deale more. For notwithſtanding that al were tormented, yet neuertheles thoſe which were in the Limbe, were a great deale leſſe, then thoſe which were deteyned in Purgatory. For there is no fire in the Limbe, and they haue none other paine, ſauing that they cannot yet ſée the face of God and haue the full ioy & The payne of the Limbe fruition of Paradiſe, the whiche they doe farye for, much deſiring it: which was vnto them a great torment, as vnto euery one which tarieth for the goodneſſe that he deſireth, and cannot haue it ſo ſoone as he would. In like manner thoſe which were in Purgatorye, and are yet at this The payne of Purgatory preſent, do not ſuffer ſo gréeuous torments without compariſon, as the dampned that are deteined in hell fire: But they haue yet neuertheleſſe more fire then thoſe whiche were in the Limbe.

Theophilus.

Thou ſhalt be yet compelled to come vnto my ſayings. For what other thing may I conclude, by thy wordes, but that there is three helles, betwéene whiche thrée is no difference, but that the one os more cruel then Three helles. the other, as the torments & priſons of the Tyrants are. For Theologians do affirme that there is two ſortes of Poena damni. & poena ſenſus Leo de viim. ſer uim ſeſt. mort. paines in Purgatory, to wit, the paine of Dam, and the paine of the ſence. By the payne of Dam, they vnderſtand the dammage and hurt that the ſoules doe receiue for the long tarying and let that they haue, to ſée the face of God, and to bée in poſſeſſion of the ioyes of Paradiſe. By the paine of the ſence, they vnderſtand the tormentes which the ſoules doe féele of the fire by the which they are puniſhed. Now iudge, what difference can be. Firſt, what more greater paine can the dampned haue then this héere? Sith that your Doctors do affirme that the fire of Io. Maio. 4. ſent diſt. 44. q. 1. hell, and of Purgatory, is all one, as to his ſubſtaunce, and that after the daye of the laſt iudgement, Purgatorye ſhall bee mingled with Hell, and they ſhalbe but one ſelfe thing? Thou canſt not heere finde any other difference, ſauing that Purgatorye is not a perpetuall hell, neyther an eternall hell fire, but that it hath a certeine ende: and that the Limbe is a halfe Hell. For there is but the paine of Dam, ſith that there is no fire. The which yet neuertheleſſe your Doctors ds affirme to be ſo great that it ſurmounteth all the paines of the world. And for to proue it, they alledge Sainct Auguſtine, ſaying. To be an eſtraunger from the kingdome of God, depriued from the ſwéetneſſe of God, is a paine ſo great, that ther are no torments that may be compared vnto them. And Chriſoſtome ſaith: Many are afrayde of the Bell fire, but I eſtéeme a paine a great deale greater then the hell fire, tha fall from that glorye. Thou doeſt then ſee, whether I doe wronge to call the Limbe, Hell. But ther is yet a difference betwéene Barl. ſerm. de poen. infer. the paines of the auncient fathers, which were deteyned and kept in the Limbe, and the children that are borne dead. For that halfe hell, after your doctrine, is vnto them eternall: the which it was not vnto the auncient fathers. But the better to declare and ſhewe foorth that matter. I Abrahams boſme. Luc. 16. c. 12 demaund of thée what thou thinckeſt the boſome of Abraham to be, in which Lazarus reſted? I do not now diſpute, whether the example that our Lord propounded of the rich man & of Lazarus, is alledged as a true hiſtory, or as a parable. For whatſoeuer it bée, Ieſus Chriſt by the ſame, declareth & ſheweth vnto vs the eſtate and condition of the elect & reprobate, after this mortal life, & declareth father vnto vs that which we ought to hold & beléeue. He maketh Two vvayes onely mention but of two places onely, that is to ſay, of hel fire, in which the rich man was tormented, & of Abrahams boſome, in which Lazarus was receiued. He putteth not foorth a third place: In like manner when he did ſend foorth his Apoſtles to preach, he plainly declared ye ther was but two wayes, the broad way which leadeth to deſtruction, and ſhe narrow way which leadeth vnto life, ſaying: He that beléeueth Mat. 7. b. 13. Luc. 13. c. 24 Marc. 16. c. 16. and is baptiſed, ſhall be ſaued: But he that beléeueth not, ſhalbe dampned, Wherefore I would gladly know of thée, what thou vnderſtandeſt by Abrahams boſome: And whether thou doeſt take it for Purgatory or for the Limbe. For thou canſt not vnderſtand it of hell, nor of any place that is nigh vnto it: ſith that Abraham aunſwered the rich man, that there is a great ſpace ſet betwéene thoſe that are in Abrahams boſome, and thoſe which are in hell Luc. 16. f. 26. with the rich man, that it is impoſſible ye one can neither go nor come from the one of ye places to the other.

Euſebius.

By Abrahams boſome I vnderſtand the place, in which were receiued ye Patriarches, Prophets & other holy men which dyed in the faith of Abraham, ye father of the beléeuers, Gene. 1. 13. 16 Gene. 15. b. 6 Rom. 4. a. Gal. 3. 2. 6 & in the hope of ſaluation & benediction ye they ought to receiue by Ieſus Chriſt our Lord, the true ſéede of the bleſſing promiſed vnto Abraham.

Theophilus.

Then thou doeſt then take it for the Limbe. For Limbus in the Latin Limbus. Signification of the Limbe tongue, ſignifieth the hem or gard of a gowne or of any other garment.

Hillarius.

Yea, in déed, whoſoeuer wil beléeue the witnes of al good Latin authors, as Virgile and other Aene. 2. 4. like, which often times do vſe it, and not in any other ſignification. But peraduenture the papiſtical Theologians would héere vſe their accuſtomed licence, which is to peruert The lycence of the Theologiās & marre all tongues and languages: giuing vnto them an other ſence a ſignification, & to make a new one, as the Iargon of the beggers & Oſtirians which none vnderſtandeth Pedlers French but themſelues.

Theophilus.

It muſt néedes be ſo: or els that they dooe take the word of Limbe by a Metaphore, compariſon and ſtmilitude, for extermitie: as farre as I can iudge, as well I by thy words, before alledged and allowed, as by thoſe of you Theologians. For in diſputing of thoſe internal habitatiōs, they confeſſe by their bookes, that it is vncertein, which is néereſt vnto hell, either the Limbe or Purgatory. As touching the Limbe of the fathers, they affirme aſſuredly, that in the time when it was, it was ſituated in a place more higher. And as touching that of the children, they ſay, that after the latter iudgement, it ſhall bée in the earth a little aboue the ſame: and hell ſhalbe in the bottom: and Purgatory ſhall be then all one with hell.

Hillarius.

I would gladly knows what meatinges and meaſurings they vſe in thoſe lowe territories, & whether they doe meaſure the landes & countryes, by cubites, elles, rodes, miles and other lyke meaſures, ſuch as the Geometrians and Aſtronomers haue. At the leaſtwiſe they are more ſkilfull in ſuch Arte then euer they were. For they doe meaſure the regions and countries, which yet are not. But for a ful reſolution, we can conclude none other thing by their Geomitry and diſcription, but that purgatory and the Limbe are the confins, or the ſuburbes either of hel, or of Paradiſe.

Theophilus.

If ye Limbe of the fathers were The ſuburbs of hell and of Paradiſe. one of the ſuburbes of hell, it muſt bée yt the citie ſhould be a great way off from the ſuburbes. For Abraham cléerely witneſſeth that there is ſuch a diſtaunce, from his boſome, the which thou taketh for the Limbe, vnto hell in which the rich man was, that it is impoſſible to paſſe from ye one to the other, bicauſe of the horrible goulfe and depth which is betwéene them both.

Hillarius.

Peraduenture wée may deceiue our ſelues. For how doeſt thou know, whether they do pronounce Limbe, for Lembe. For Lembe in Lembus lembe. Plaut. in Marca & Bacch. Liut. li. 8. bel. punt. & 1. ab vng. Gene d. 23. 1. Pet. 3. d c Greeke and Latine ſignifieth a little ſhip and very ſwift: or a gally. Wherefore it may be, that they do meane, that the auncient fathers, were detained & kept in that Lembe as in a ſhip, as Noe was in his Arke, to the end they ſhould not fall into that déepe lake of Hell, and be drowned in the goulfe of thoſe deepe riuers, of which we haue ſpoken off ſo much. For all their eaſe goeth by poetical faynings. The Limbe of the Infants But howſoeuer they will take it. I dare proue it by the olde men of our countrey, that it is moſt lykeſt to be true that the Limbe, at the leaſt the ſame of the poung children, ought rather to be in the ſuburbes of Paradise, then of hell. For they doe bolde for certeyne, that the younge children, which for wanting of exterior and outward baptiſme, are ſent vnto the Limbe, hearing from thence where they are, the ioyes of Paradiſe, but they cannot ſée them: the which is vnto them a meruaylous torment. Neuertheleſſe the good olde men woulde not haue ſpoken ſo aſſuredly, if they had not heard it ſo preached of the great Theologians and Doctors. Nowe ſithence that from the Limbe, the young children do heare the ioyes of Paradiſe, reaſō declareth vnto vs that ye Limbe ought not to be farre off from paradiſe, but that it may haue only ſome wal, or a certein vayle betwéene them both which may hinder and let their ſight, either that they do make a great noyſe in paradiſe: or elſe that the eares of the ſoules are merueylouſly ſharpe and attentius.

Euſebius.

Sith that the Doctors doe ſay that it is ſituated & builded in a place more higher, I doubt not but that it approcheth nigh vnto Paradiſe.

Hillarius.

In ſtéede then y Virgile placeth the Limbe of the young children at the entering in to hel, thou wilt make it at the entering in of Paradiſe. Aene. 6.

Theophilus.

Sith that wée doe alreadye eſloyne and make our ſelues ſo farre from Hell, I doe greatly feare, that in the ende thy Limbe and thy Purgatorye will not be ſounds in Paradiſe. And therefore I demaund of thée againe, to knows whether that the boſome of Abraham be a place of voluptuouſnes and pleaſure,. or of ſorrowfulnes & horror. And whether y the yoūg children of y Hebrews A queſtion of the infants of the Hebrevves dead vvithout circumciſion Gene. 17. b. 10. & Iewes, which died before y viii. day, which was deternined & appointed for to circumciſe thē, did go into y boſome of Abraham wc the patriarches? either into Purgatory: or into hell, or whether they had an other Limbe a varie.

Euſebius.

Thou doeſt propound vnto mée many queſtions together, to the which I cannot anſwere according to the order which thou haſt kept in propounding them. For I will beginne with the latter, afterwardes I wyll deſcend vnto the others. As touchinge that which thou demaundeſt of the ſaluation of the young Infantes of the Hebrewes, I doe aunſwere as the Maſter of the ſententes, euen ſo as of the children of the Chriſtians, which dyed before baptiſme.

Theophilus.

Thou wilt then ſay, that they doe periſh, The opinion of Lumbard. •• ſent. 4. diſt. 1. St vero. Diſt. 4. ca. neceſſerum. & ca filius. ka. de ſacra. both the one and the other? For the maſter of the ſentences vſeth this proper worde, ſaying: that it is moſt true that they periſh. If they doe periſh, they are then dampned: the which I am ſure thou wilt not confeſſe. For you doe put a difference betwéene the dampned and them. Yet neuertheleſſe you holde them not for the children of God. And therefore you denye vnto them to bée buryed in the Churchyard. And therefore that opinion of the maſter of the ſentences hath ſéemed to the other ſcholaſtical Doctors too rigorous, which do witneſſe that they holde it not commonly Vnde verſus ex chan. de ſacram Nullus aborttn. us, null •• niſs fonte renatus: Infra ſancta de debet ſepel r vt an lex. in that place, but they take it for an error, the which they haue adioyned with the others which they haue heaped vp together from their bookes.

Euſebius.

If he did vnderſtand and meane that they went into Hell, I wyll not followe his ſentencs. But I beléeue that he meaneth that they go no other where but to the Limbe.

Theophilus.

But was that Limbe whether they went, the very ſame, in which the Patriarches were ſhut in, or whether they had a chamber ſeperated from their lodging?

Euſebius.

I beléeue that the young children haue their Limbe ſeperated from the others: or otherwiſe they ſhould haue had no more paine then the others which haue bene circumciſed: ſith that they cannot yet enter into Paradiſe, but are all ſtayed in the Limbe.

Thomas.

I thinke, that you do not kepe the promiſe which you haue made neither on the one ſide nor on the other, & that you abide not within the circuit & field, the which you haue determined for your Iouſtes. For you are bounde to flight by the onelye authoritie of the worde of God. And yet neuertheleſſe, it is alredy a good while, that I haue heard any thing of you but the opinions of the Doctors. Wherfore I would gladly (Euſebius) that you would follow that matter, and I deſire that thou wouldeſt proue by the holy Scriptures that which thou affirmeſt of the yoūg children dead without circumciſion & baptiſme.

Euſebius.

Doeſt thou thinke that I ſpeake without the Scripture? the which I wil not yet alledge with my gloſes and expoſitions: But for to giue more weight and credite vnto my probations, I would thou ſhouldeſt beare the witneſſe of them by the mouth of the auncient Doctors, namely, of the worſhipful Beda, ſpeaking after this manner. Hée which now cryeth Beda. Sant. 4. diſt. 1. S vero. Iohn. . a. . terribly & healthfully by his Gopell: except a man be borne of water & the holy ſpirite, he cannot enter into the kingdome of God. The very ſame he cryed by his lawe: the ſoule of him whoſe foreſkinne of his fleſh is not circumcifed, Gene. 17. c. 14 ſhal periſh from his people: bicauſe he hath broken my teſtament. Beholde a cléere probation, as wel for the children of the Iewes, as for thoſe of the Chriſtians.

Theophilus.

How vnderſtandeſt thou that threatning againſt thoſe which were not circumciſed? For God hath prefired eight dayes, for to circumciſe the young children. Nowe if they doe dye before the eight day, and the terme preſcribed of God, doeſt thou thinke that the ſaluation of thoſe children be in daunger?

Euſebius.

The word of God excepteth neither little nor great, but ſpeaketh generally to all men.

Theophilus.

But there could haue bene no fault, but in the tranſgreſſiō of the cōmaundement of God. Sith then that God had determined for them ye viij. day, wherefore ought the young children to periſh, which died before that terme? For ſith that God had lymitted the day. I doubte not but that thoſe who ſhould haue circumciſed them before the day prefired ſhould do contrary vnto the cōmaundement of God.

Euſebius.

I accorde vnto thée therein, in thoſe which ſhould haue done that without neceſſitie, and Sent. 4. diſt. 1. S vero. without the daunger of the death of the young childe. But I beléeue, that when there ſhould haue bene any daunger they might circumeiſe them before that terme.

Theophilus.

And I beléeue the contrary. For I can proue my reaſon by the Scripture, the which thou canſt not doo thine. If it were ſo then as y ſayſt, it ſhould follow y god was not well aduiſed, when he made that ordinaunce, and that the Iſralites ſhoulde be wiſer by right: and that hée ſhould doe great wrong vnto them, ſith that he hath not aduertiſed them of that doing, and that he gaue none exception. It followeth in lyke manner. if the circumciſion had bene ſo neceſſary vnto ſaluation, that all the woemen children and woemen ſhould periſh, fith that they dyed all without circumciſion: the which yet neuertheleſſe no man dareth to affirme, ſith that there hath bene ſo many holy women, of whom the holy Scripture beareth vs witnes.

Euſebius.

It is eaſie to reproue thy conſequence. For in the inſtitution of the circumciſion, it is ſpoken expreſſely of the males, not of the females.

Theophilus.

The law yet neuertheleſſe ſayth, euery ſoule, euery perſon. Wherefore if we muſt take the wordes by rigor, without a fitte interpretation, wée muſt comprehend the females, if there had bene none other places, which doe giue vnto vs the intelligence & vnderſtanding of the lawe: beſides that the inſtitution of the ſame doth ſufficiently declare, that it extendeth not vnto the women. Thē if the womē be exempt, bicauſe that the lawe bindeth them not, ſo are the Infants which dye before the eight day. For they are not bound by the law before ye terme: or otherwiſe, God would not haue held his peace, ſooner then of ther thinges which were not of ſo great importance. But when the eight day was come, I doubt not, that if thorow contempning, negligence and diſpiſing, the circumciſion had bene omitted, but y the Lord Rebellion and diſpiſing the cōmaundement of God. would haue bene greatlye offended: not by reaſon of the ſigne, but thorowe the rebellion and diſpiſinge of his woorde, the which hee taketh in greate diſpleaſure: as he hath ſhewed the example of him that gathered ſticks on the ſabboth day. It ſeemed that y fault was not great, 〈◊〉 . 15. d. •• nor ſuch as though he had committed a murther. And yet neuertheles god puniſhed him wt a cruel death, as though he had cōmitted the greateſt crime in the world. It is then an other thing to haue omitted any ceremony cōmanded of God, thorow negligence, diſpiſing & rebellion, or to haue left it vndone, thorow neceſſitie, or bicauſe that it was not poſſible. For when there is let, ſuch that man cannot auoyde Neceſſitie it, and that this minde and will was good, and hath trauayled as much as hée can for to execute it. I doe not beléene yt god imputeth the fault vnto him vnto whom hée was not bounde. For the ſaluation of men conſiſteth in the alliaunce which the Lord hath made with vs, by the which doth the ſmall and greate are receiued and ioyned together in the company and fellowſhippe of the people of God. We doe not denye, but that that alliaunce is ſigned and ſealed by the ſacramēts, and that the baptiſme is but the ſigne and ſeals among the Chriſtians, as the circumciſion was amonge the Iewes. But it followeth not therefore that it is firme and certeine inough without that ſigne and ſeale. Wherfore there is no doubt, but that thoſe which do ſhut vp the kingdome of heauen vnto the infants for want and lack of the ſigne, do vnto them great wrong, and do béely the promiſes of God, which by them haue pronounced them to be his, before y they were borne, ſaying: that he is our God and the God of our children. And therfore thoſe which do make that outward baptiſme Gene . 17. 2. ſo neceſſary vnto ſaluation, what other thing do they make of it but a witchcraft and Magical enchauntments, attributing vnto the material & corruptible elements that which apperteineth vnto the only vertue of God, & wherto ſerueth it? Wherefore we may wel know the error and ignorance of the ſcholaſtical doctors, which haue iudged that baptiſme Iul . 4. ſent. neceſſary vnto ſaluation. For which cauſe they haue alſo permitted and eſtablyſhed, that the woemen might and ought to baptiſe in tyme of neceſſitie. But the auncient Patriarches an holy Prophetes were not in that ſuperſtition: and were not ignoraunt of the vertue and efficacie of gods promiſe and allyaunce, nor of the reaſons by mée alledged: or otherwiſe the Iſraelites ſhould haue greatly fayled, and chiefely Moſes, which was the Prophet and conductor of the people of God, to Circumciſion deferred haue dwelled at the leaſt, the ſpace of fourty yeres, ſithens the departing from Aegypt, vntil the entring into the land of Chanaan, without circumciſing y children. Yet it is to be beléeued, that during that time, many dyed, without being circumcyſed: and although none had dyed, did it not ſéeme rightly, that Moſes, and all the other Iſraelites did againſt the ordinance of god: ſith that they executed it not at the day appointed?

Thomas.

Is it true that they haue abode ſo long time without circumciſing the children?

Theophilus.

If they had bene circumciſed, it ſhoulde not haue bene written, that Ioſua cauſed them to bee circamciſed, after y they were entred into the land of Chanaan. Ioſua. 5. 2. 2 But by that example thoſe holy men do ſhew vnto vs, how we ought to vnderſtand the matter of the exterior ſacraments. For notwithſtanding that it is written of the Genes. 17. 2. 7 Rom. 4. b. 11. circumciſion: This is mine alliaunce with your generations by an euerlaſting ordinaunce: and that the bay of the giuing and receiuing hath bene limitted, yet neuertheleſſe they haue well vnderſtanded, that that ſacrament was a publike ceremony, for to witneſſe the allyaunce of God betwóene that people, and in the Iewiſh Churche, as the Exo. 13. b. 12 Paſcal Lambe and their other ſacraments. Wherfore when they had iuſte and lawfull lette, and that they had not the time, and place, and other things requiſit to theyr ceremonies, they haue made it no great cōſcience to omit them, & did not thinke that therby their ſaluation ſhould be in daunger, for that they dyd knowe that it came not thorow their negligence and diſpiſing of God. As they had S auation vvith out exteriour ſacraments then the females ſaued thorow fayth, and the ſpiritual and interior circumciſion, without carnal and exterior circumciſion, euen ſo did they y males, knowing y they were cōpriſed in y aliance of God, by the which, of his pure grace & mercie, he graunteth ſaluatiō vnto his elect: y which he giueth through his holie ſpirite, as it pleaſeth him, aſwel wt out ſacraments as wt ſacraments as it appeareth in Cornelius & thoſe which were in his houſe, which haue receiued y holie Ghoſt before they were baptiſed of S. Peter. Cornellus. Act. 10. f. 44. But yet they neuertheleſſe did not diſpiſe the exteriour outward baptiſme, although y they were alreadie baptiſed by y holy Ghoſt For y man ſhould be verie proud, which Honour vnto y ſacraments. Daniel. 9. a would diſpiſe y baptiſme ordeyned by Ieſus Chriſt, ſith y he himſelfe, which is y holy of y holyeſt, who alone can ſanctifie the ſinners, & baptiſe with the holy Ghoſt & with fire, did not diſpiſe the ſame of S. Iohn Baptiſt. But if the Mat. 3. c. 13 elect, aſwel little as great, which haue ben among y Gentiles The gentiles ſaued vvithout circumciſion Ion. 35. 3. & 4 4. Reg. 5. a. d 14 4. Reg. 24. a Iob. 43. & Panims, haue bene ſaued without exteriour circumciſion, as it appeareth in y Niniuites, Nahaman, Iob, Nabuchodonoſor & other like, which haue had knowledg of God, & haue had their recourſe vnto his mercie, wherefore ſhal y ſame priuiledge be denyed vnto thoſe that be hath, not only elected through his eternall election, belō ging vnto all his ſeruants, but alſo he hath giuen vnto them y witneſſe by the exteriour ſacraments, if they had ſuch lettes & excuſes, & as reaſonable as the Gentiles and Panyms could haue? For why were not the elect which were among y Panims accuſed, in being not circumciſed, but bicauſe that they were not in the land of Iſrael, nor in the viſible church, & among y people which he had choſen, vnto whom he cōmaunded ſuch things. If they had bene among the Iſraelites, and that they might haue communicated with them, it had bene requiſite to be circum •• ſed, and to vſe the ſame ſacraments. But when they were in a place, in which they had not that exteriour mym re, nor could not haue it, the Lorde was contented with the meanes that it pleaſed him to giue vnto thé. Now if ſuch neceſſitie happened vnto the Iſraelites, I doubt not, but that the obli ation of the lawe hath ceaſed, when the cauſes, for which it was giuen are ceaſed: and the ſpirituall circumciſion of the heart, ſuffiecth for it ſelfe & for the exterior, & the ſpirituall ſacrifices, for the material. For whē they were in y wildernes, & that they muſt be readie euery day to remoue their hoſt & houſhold ſtuffe euery houre, when God commaunded them they did well Iudge, y God woulde not y they ſhould be murtherers of their young children, whom they could not circumciſe, but y they would be very ſick & in daunger of drath, if they had not had time & place to looke well vnto them, as we may preſume, by the Sichemytes, who were ſo ſicke after Sichemites Geneſ. 34. d. 26 their circumciſion, y they could not defende themſelues againſt y two ſonnes of Iacob. And therfore Moyſes hath well conſidered, y the circumciſion was made for man & Mat. 12. a 1 Mar. 2. d. 27 Luc. G. a. 5 Iohn. 7. c. 22 not man for y circumciſion, as he writeth of y ſabboth. And alſo y the people were not in place, where they might haue their church garniſhed & bewtified as it ought to be. Then if y Iewes, which had ſuch expreſſe commaundement had verie wel ſuch diſpenſation & exception, ſhall we put the Chriſtians & their young children in worſe conditiō then y Iewes? I cannot marueil too much, of y queſtion which y Theologians made, to wit, whether we ought to accōpt The queſtion of the Theologiās Gerſ in Flo. de baptiſ ca de t s na de con. diſt. 4. ca. ad. lunina 30. q. 1. & take an Infant to be baptiſed, which for want of water ſhould be caſt into a well, in pronouncing the ſacramentall words, which apperteine to the ſubſtaūce & forme of the ſacrament? Upon which many Canoniſts & Theologians anſwered y he was: & ſaid y the ſame hath ben ſome times done. Although y there are other of diuerſe opinions, & which do not take ſuch an Infant for to be baptiſed. Hillar. If I were y Iudge in y cauſe, I would condemne to death, as an homicide, him y ſhould ſo caſt away & kil y infant.

Theophilus.

We may wel know by ſuch queſtions & theological reſolutions, of what ſpirit the doctrine which thou mainteineſt Euſeb. proceedeth, y which putteth ſuch neceſſitie in the exterior baptiſme, that thoſe which doe vpholde and followe it, are conſtrayned, euen to murther the Infauntes: or at the leaſt, they are in doubt and perplexitie, eyther to kill them or drowne them after that ſort, or to ſuffer thē to die, doubting that they are loſt and reiected of God. I am much abaſhed, how God is become more cruell in this time of grace and mercy, towards the children of the Chriſtians, after the manifeſtation of Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne, then he The cōdition of he children of the chriſtians. hath bene towards the children of the Iewes, before his comming.

Euſebius.

What is hée, that ſaith that God is more cruell towards the children of the Chriſtiane, then towards the children of the Iewes?

Theophilus.

Thou, and thoſe which doe follow the doctrine which thou vpholdeſt & mayntaineſt. It is moſt true, that you doe not ſpeake it openly, but your doctrine importeth no leſſe. For what rigor ſhould God doe, againſt the little Infants of the Chriſtians, if for want of being w tte with a little water, they were depriued eternally from the Ioyes of Paradiſe? I haue alredy ſufficiently proued, that the children of the Iewes, were not bound vnto ſuche neceſſitie: although that the commaundement of the circumciſion giueth an expreſſe terme, the which is not in the baptiſme: wherein then ought the children of the Chriſtians to be more culpable, then thoſe of the Iewes? If it hath pleaſed god, to ſend vnto the mother, any aduerſitie, or ſickneſſe, whiche was the cauſe that ſhée hath brought foorth hir child before hir ful time, what fault can be in the child? and what conſolation doth your doctrine bring vnto the poore mother, being alreadie ſufficiently ſcourged and afflicted of the hand of God, to make hir beleeue that hir childe is condempned vnto perpetuall exile, and baniſhed from Paradiſe for euer? And that hee is detayned in the Limbe, in the which without ceaſing hee curſeth Father and mother? At the leaſt wyſe the Carhards haue preached and perſwaded them ſo.

Thomas.

Yea; I haue heard them preach more ouer: that is to ſay, that it were better that a Towne, a Ceuntry, or a kingdome were drowned, then an Infaunt ſhoulde dye without baptiſme.

Theophilus.

If the Infant did come vnto the age of diſcretion, and that hee deſpiſoth the baptiſme, I would not excuſe his infidelitie and rebellion. Or if the father & mother, thorough their negligence, diſpiſing & infidelitie, haue made none accompt to baptiſe their child, I would not alſo excuſe them, but that they ſhould yeld them ſelues greatly culpable before God, & worthy of greeuous puniſhment. But I will not, yet neuertheleſſe therefore, iudge raſhely of the ſaluation of the childe. For GOD 2. Tim. 2. c. 19 knoweth thoſe that are his. And man hath not power to danipue, him whome God woulde haue ſaued. And if it hath not pleaſed God to ſhewe that grace and fauour vnto the Father and Mother, that they cannot ſée their childe aliue, for to offer and preſent him vnto him and to his Churche by the baptiſme, wherefore ſhall hée vſe ſuch furor towards that poore Infant and the Parents, which are already ynough deſolate and without comfort? What iniury doe you vnto Ieſus Chriſte? Theſe Infants borne dead ſhoulde not haue great occaſion to bleſſe his comming, nor to ſing with thoſe which haue receiued him, when he entred into Hieruſalem: Bleſſed be the ſonne Mat. 21. a 9 Mare 11. b. 10. Luc. 19 f 38. of Dauid, which commeth in the name of the Lord. They ſhould haue hadde more iuſt occaſion to curſſe and deteſt him, ſith that in ſteede to amende their condition, hée hath put them in worfe eſtate then the Iewes were before his comming: You cannot denye that abſurditie and inconuenience, if you will mainteine your doctrine truely, the which declareth it ſelfe altogether contrary, to the doctrine of the goſpell, full of all conſolation, in ſtéede of which your doctrine bringeth but deſolation and deſpaire. Hillarius. I can ſpeake by experience. For I haue knowen holy wo men, walking in true ſimplicitie of heart and great feare of God, which were ſo troubled in their conſcience, bicauſe that ſuch inconueniences happened vnto them, and that they were ſo perſwaded, that with much a doe, one could ſinde any meanes to comfort them and ſet their conſcyence at reſt and in quiet: what ſoeuer things 〈◊〉 ſay vnto them. Although that one tolde and affirmed vnto them, that our Lady of Lauſanne ſhewed grace vnto the Infant, and that thoſe which were preſent did witneſſe vnto them of the goodly myracle that ſhe had done in rayāng to life the Infant for to baptiſe it being dead, afterwardes did put him in the graue, yet neuertheleſſe all that coulde not aſſure them: and they coulde not be at reſt in their conſcience, vntill ſuch time as thorough the preaching of the Goſpell, they were deliuered from thoſe falſe oppinions of Caphards and deuilliſhe doctrines.

Theophilus.

That is that which ſathan and the falſe prophets do deſire, the conſciences ſhoulde be troubled & deſolate: for then gaine they moſt. They haue of mē that they deſire: & their fiſhing is beſt in troubled water. Euſebius. Thou haſt concluded that according to our doctrine it ſhould followe, that Ieſus Chriſt ſhoulde haue impaired the eſtate of the Chriſtians. But wherein? For thoſe of the Iewes ſhal no more enter into Paradiſe, then thoſe here.

Theophilus.

If they went into Abrahams boſome, by the which thou vnderſtandeſt the Lymbe, there was no more greater puniſhment for them, then for the others which were circumcyſed: ſith that all doe goe thither indifferently: as I haue ſufficiently ſhewed vnto thee. Afterwards thoſe which then were in the Lymbe, hoped to be deliuered, the which is denied vnto the poore children of the Chriſtians. Wherefore it ſhould followe, that Ieſus Chriſt ſhoulde rather come for to ſhowe and bring vnto them the wrath and iudgement of God, then his grace and mercy. Furthermore, thoſe which were in Abrahams boſome, were not without hauing ſome taſte Conſolation and comfort in Abrahams boſome and perticipation of the Ioyes of Paradyſe: as it appeareth plainely, by the wordes of Abraham, anſwering vnto the rich man after this manner: Thou haſt had pleaſure in this worlde. Wherefore thou muſt howe ſuffer, Luc. 10. f. 25. and that the chaunce be tourned. And contrariwiſe Lazarus hath ſuffered greate tribulations and iniſeryes. Wherefore nowe it is meete that hée bee at reſt and ioy. Thou canſt not denye but that theſe wordes are true. If they bée true, thou art conſtrayned to confeſſe, that in Abrahames boſome is conſolation, reſt and ioy. And howe can theſe thinges be, out of the kingdome of GOD, Rom. 14. c. 17 which is righteouſueſſe, peace, and ioye in the holye Ghoſt?

Euſebius.

I haue not agréed to thée that the children of the Iewes, being deade without Circumſition, ſhould go vnto the Lymbe of the fathers, but into another.

Theophilus.

It behoueth then to forge Lymbes. But where is the witneſſe of the Scripture, for to prooue the ſame? And do the children of the Chriſtians go ſtraight way vnto the Lymbe of the auncient fathers?

Euſebius:

No.

Hillarius.

Then there is preſently a chamber to heyre.

Theophilus.

Doeſt thou not knowe into what dreams and fooliſhneſſe that doctrine doth leade you? Truely I am aſhamed. Wherefore I pray thée, that thou do holde thy ſelfe content with that that I haue aunſwered vnto thée: and that nowe thou do come vnto the queſtion which I haue propounded vnto thee, to wit, what difference thou putteſt betwéene the boſome of Abraham and Paradiſe?

Euſebius.

I do not meane to paſſe thy queſtion without aunſwering vnto it. But thou letteſt ſlippe the principall obiection which I haue made vnto thee, without hauing ſatiſfyed mee therein. Wherefore I would haue the reſolution before thou doeſt eſcape mée. Howe may wée then vnderſtande that which Ieſus Chriſt hath ſaid? Except that a man be borne a newe of water and of the Iohn. 3. a. 5 Spirite, he cannot enter into the kingdome of GOD. Doth he not by thoſe wordes openly declare, that the baptiſme of the water is neceſſarie vnto ſaluation? And VVhether baptiſme with vvater be neceſſary to ſaluation that he which ſhall not be baptiſed with water, cannot enter into ſhe kingdome of heauen. For he hath not onely ſayde: hee that ſhalbe borne a newe of the Spirite, but he hath alſo added, the water, for to declare that the one and the other are requiſit. I confeſſ that the water without the ſpirit ſuffiſeth net: and that the viſ •• l 〈◊〉 , without faith, cannot ſaue. For it is firſt ſayd •••• th •• 〈◊〉 afterwards there is added, and is baptiſed ſhall bee ſaued. But I cannot vnderſtand, Marc 16. c. 16. but that the baptiſme of the water is in like manner neceſſarie vnto ſaluation. Or I know not to what ende Ieſus Chriſte pr tended by thoſe wordes, that hee hath aunſwered vnto 〈◊〉 .

Theophilus.

Before we do paſſe any farther, note d •• ygently, that notwithſtanding that Ieſus Chriſt hath ſayed: Marc. 16. c. c. 16. He that beléeueth and ſhalbe baptiſed ſhalbe ſaued. Yet neuertheleſſe in the contrary propoſition which followeth he hath not re terated the baptiſme. He hath not ſaide: he that beléeueth not and ſhall not be baptiſed, ſhalbe condempned: But hath made only mention of the faith and of the beléeuing, ſhewing that without the ſame, none can be deliuered from condemnation: the which he hath not affirmed of the baptiſme. And yet neuertheleſſe he ſpeaketh there of the outward and viſible baptiſme: And not only of the ſame of the young children, but of the lde and greate ones, vnto whom the apoſtles were ſent for to preach the Goſpell. Now iudge, if Ieſus Chriſt hath not required the viſible baptiſme of the greate ones, as neceſſary vnto ſaluation, how wil he require it of the young children? I will geue none occaſyon vnto any man, by my wordes, to deſpyſe the Sacraments. For thou knoweſt already what ſentence I haue giuen againſt thoſe that do deſpiſe it. But I do •• eane an ſa that if any good man were, eyther among the Turkes, or among the Idolaters and Infidels, which had knowledge of the goſpel & true faith in Ieſus Chriſt, and that it was not poſſible for him to bee baptiſed, I cannot beléeue, that he ſhould be dampned for lacke of a little water: ſith that he hath the principall, to witte, the faith: or otherwiſe, the water ſhoulde haue more vertue & efficacie, then the bloud of Ieſus Chriſt or at the leaſt as much. And the Prieſt which adminiſtreth the baptiſme, ſhould haue as much power as Ieſus Chriſt himſelfe. For it ſhould follow, that euen as the water, or the Miniſter in like manner, can do nothing without the ſpirit & bloud of Ieſus Chriſt, that Ieſus Chriſtes ſpirit alſo, nor his bloud could doe any thing without the water and the Miniſter. And ſo Ieſus Chriſt and his eſpirit ſhould be as much ſubiect vnto the Miniſter and the water, as the water and the Miniſter vnto them: And ſo conſequently, his grace & mercy ſhall be bound vnto the corruptible elements & ſubiect Saluation and health bound vnto the elements vnto men. After that manner Ieſus Chriſt ſhould bée no more a true God, nor a true Sauiour. And ſo it is eaſy to iudge, that ſuch doctrine procéedeth not of God, ſith that it •• pugneth euidently the grace of God: the iuſtification of faith, and the annalogy of the ſa ie, and bo ••• ouerturne altogether the miſtery of y redeption made by Ieſus Chriſt: The which thing, not onely the auncient Doctors, but alſo Sent. 4. diſt. 4. Sunt. the Scholaſticals and Queſtionaries haue wel perceiued, namely the maſter of the ſentences, which proueth by good Saluation vvith ou viſible baptiſme De ciuit. Dei. li. 13. ca. 7 De con. diſt. 4 baptiſmi. De vni bap. •• . 4 li. 4. de bap. glo. de conſ. diſt. 4. b ptiſm . & Cypris. Baptiſme of de otion Vnde verſus ex Io. chan de ſacra. Indan ••• rreus, contritus ad •• . mina templi. Si tibi defuerint aqua, presbyter & moriatur. reaſons, and by the witneſſe of the auncient Doctors of the Church, that ſome are iuſtified & ſaued without baptiſme, amongeſt whom ſaint Auguſtine comprehendeth all thoſe which are dead, and haue ſuffered martyrdome for the con •••• ion of Ieſus Chriſt. In like manner the authoritie of Cyprian is ſette foorth by the maſter of the ſentences, by the which he witneſſeth, that the ſaith, the repen aunce and conuerſ on of the heart doth recompence and ſuffice for baptiſme vnto thoſe that haue not the time, nor place for to receiue it, & they doe call it baptiſme of 〈◊〉 . And for confirmation of this, he ioyneth to the example of the thée e which was crucified next to Ieſus: the which ſaith he was not crucified for the name of Chriſt, but for his demerits and wicked déedes: And he did not ſuffer bicauſe e beléued, but in ſuffering he beléeued. It is then declared in that thee e how much ſayth a ayleth, without the Sacrament of viſible baptiſme: The which the Apoſtle ſayth: The beléefe of the heart iuſtifieth, and Firmiter in Criſtum credēs ſaluabitur ille. Rom. 10. b. 9 to knowledge with the mouth maketh a man ſafe. But then hée doth accompliſh it inuiſibly, when the neceſſitye ſhutteth vp and hideth the Sacrament of baptiſme, not the diſpiſinge of the religion. Hee may haue ſome kinde of baptiſme, where he ſhall not haue couerſion of y heart. And the conuerſion of the heart maye bée in ſome, without hauing receiued baptiſme: But it cannot be ther where baptiſme is diſpiſed: and we muſt not in no wiſe call that conuerſion of the heart vnto God, when the ſacrament of De con. diſt. 4. c. baptiſmi. Sent. 4. diſt. 4. God is diſpiſed. Be holde the witneſſe, the whiche vppon that matter Gratian alledgeth in his booke of decretalls, and the maſter of the ſentences, taken of Cyprian, & addeth the ſame of Saint Ambroſe, touching the Emperour Valenti ian, who dyed without baptiſme, of whō he ſaith: Valentinian. Ambro. de obit. Valent. I haue loſt him whom I ought to haue regenerated. But yet neuertheleſſe hée hath not loſt the grace, the which hée required. Now if we ought to haue ſuch confidence and truſt of the health and ſaluation of the great and olde men which coulde not haue the baptiſme, by a more ſtronger reaſon we ought to haue it of the young Infants. For if they be of Gods elect, it is in his power to baptiſe them in their mothers belly by his holy ſpirit, & to ſanctifie them, as it is written of Iacob, of eremy, Sainct Iohn Baptiſt, Gene. 25. c. 22 ere. 1. . 5 Lu . 1. f. 64 Rom. 10 Gal. . c. 15 & of Saint Paul, Euſebius. How can we then abſolue the propoſition of Ieſus Chriſt? For it is generall, and excluſiue without excepting any perſon.

Theophilus.

As much may I ſay of that that he hath ſaid of his fleſh and of his bloud, ſpeaking in this manner: verely, verely I ſay vnto Io •• s. 6. f. 33 you, except ye eate the fleſh of the ſonne of man and drinke his bloud, ye ſhall not haue life in you. Doth not that propoſition counteruail as much, as if he had ſayd: whoſoeuer ſhall not eate my fleſh and drinke my bloud, ſhall not haue eternall life? none can denie the ſame. It followeth then, that all the younge children are dampned and all thoſe which doe not cōmunicate in the Sacrament of the ſupper: if the Popiſh doctrine bée true, that Ieſus Chriſt is really in the hoaſt, and that wée muſt there eate hys fleſh and drinke his bloude, after the manner as they haue taught vs. It ſhall not be then no leſſe neceſſary to keepe the conſecrated hoaſtes, and of the Gods in the boxe, for to communicate to the little children, & to giue vnto them the Sacrament of the Euchariſte, as the ſame of baptiſme. For the wordes of Ieſus Chriſt doe vrge no leſſe in the one of the places then in the other. And if thou doo thinke, that there is great difference; I wil ſhew vnto thée eaſely, that many among the auncients, haue perceiued & iudged it to be ſo as I ſay: or otherwiſe, in ye time of Charlemaine they woulde not haue kept the Euchariſtia, for to giue it vnto ye little children, when they were ſicke, if they had not eſteemed the thing very neceſſary. Yet neuertheleſſe it is written in the booke of Anſegiſus, Abbot of Liege, that the Anſegiſus. ſame was done in that time there, and reciteth the canon which was made. But yet at this day that errour continueth among the Bohemians and Morauians, the which Error of the Bohemians and Morauians yet neuertheleſſe the Papiſts themſelues doe not allow: no more then that which S. Cyprian & Origene did, which did diſtribute the ſupper vnto young children, when their fathers The ſupper giue to infants by Cyprian & Origen and mothers brought them in their armes, in comming to communicate the ſame. And they gaue vnto them not onely the breade, but alſo the cup. Now let vs thinke if already ſuch errors were about the ſacraments in that time there, what may chaunce afterwards. For Cyprian reigned about the yeare after the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt two hundreth and fiftie. Thoſe worthy men would not haue ſo much attributed vnto the Sacraments, if they had not ſo much taken to the rigor and to the letter the words of Ieſus Chriſt. Of the like beginning came vp the error of thoſe which eſtéemed & thought ye he, which after yt he was baptiſed, & hauing once receiued ye ſupper, could neuer be damned, or at the leaſt, ſhould be once delyuered from damnation, bicauſe that Ieſus Chriſt hath ſaid: I am that liuing bread that came downe from heauen: if Iohn. 6. f. 5 anyman eate of this bread, hée ſhall liue for euer. They vrge vpon the letter, & ſaid that Ieſus Chriſt could not lye, which hath promiſed the ſame. Yet neuertheles Sainct Auguſtine rebuketh & confuteth their errour. Beholde Aug. li. 21. de cius. Dei Error about the Supper y abſurdities into which men do fall for fault of wel examining the Scriptures, & when they doe take them according to the rigor of the letter. For whoſoeuer wil, according to the opinion which the Papiſtes haue of the Sacrament of the alter, take litterally y which Ieſus Chriſt ſaid of eating of his fleſh & drinking his bloud, there is no doubt, but that we ſhall be conſtrayned to confeſſe, that all thoſe which haue once taken the ſupper, are all ſaued: and y all thoſe which ſhall not once receiue it, are all damned. And ſo it ſhalbe no leſſe requiſite to giue y ſupper vnto the young childrē & to giue power vnto womē to giue it them, then y baptiſme: they y would take the words & thoſe matters by y rigor. And therfore for to retourne to the place by thée alledged, by the abſurdities which ſhould follow of thy expoſitiō, the which do repugne againſt the grace of Ieſus Chriſt, as I haue declared vnto thee, thou maiſt wel know, that we muſt not vnderſtand that place after that manner, as thou doeſt expounde it. For Ieſus Chriſt ſpeaketh not in that place there of viſible baptiſme, nor of his inſtitution: Regeneration Expoſition of the place of ſaint Iohn 3 But ſpeaketh of the regeneration of man: and ſheweth what thing he muſt haue for to be a Chriſtian, to wit, that it is neceſſary, that he doe renounce & forſake his firſt generation & natiuitie, which is altogether corrupted and curſed, and that he be regenerated by the ſpirit of God, and 1. Peter. 1. d. 23 2. Cor. d. 17 1. Cor. 15. f. 45 thorowe the incorruptible ſéede of his woorde, inſomuch that he is made a newe creature, bearinge the Image of Ieſus Chriſt, the true celeſtiall Adam, euen as hée hath borne that of the olde and terreſtriall Adam. And therefore Iohn. 3. 2. 3 hath hée ſayd: Except a man be borne from aboue or a new, be cannot ſée the kingdome of God. And after he expoundeth it by the other propoſition following, which ſignifieth none other thing, then that which hée hath already ſayd before. For to be borne from aboue, or to bée To be borne of vvater borne againe, and to be borne of water and the holy Ghoſt, are equiualent manners of ſpeakings: And the two propoſitions of Ieſus Chriſt, are equipolent y one to the other: & ther is none other difference, ſauing that y laſt is more ample, and expoundeth the firſt. For ſith that our firſt natiuitie is carnal, it muſt be y the ſecond be ſpirituall. Sith that 1. Cor. 15. f. 47 the firſt man is of the earth earthly, it is requiſite, that the ſecond, which is from heauen, be heauenly and ſpirituall. Now that regeneration & tranſformation cannot be made, but by the ſpirite of God. For as it is written in that ſame place: That which is borne of the fleſh, is fleſh. That that Iohn. 3. a. 6. is borne of the ſpirit, is ſpirit. And therefore Ieſus Chriſt willing to expoūd vnto Nicodemus y which he had ſaid before: Except y a man be borne frō aboue or a new, he cannot ſee the kingdome of God: Afterwardes ſaith: which ſhall not bée borne of water and the holy Ghoſt: bicauſe that the holy Ghoſt, author of that regeneration, is giuen from aboue: which worketh a ſecōd natiuitie in vs, which is celeſtiall and ſpirituall.

Euſebius.

But what néeded it to adde the water? was it not ſufficient to name the holy Ghoſt.

Theophilus.

Wherefore hath Iohn Baptiſt ſayd, ſpeaking To baptiſe with the holy Ghoſt and vvith fire. Mat. 3 c. 11. of the miniſtry of Ieſus Chriſt: That he would baptiſe with the holye Ghoſte and with fire: what néeded it, ſith that he named the holy Ghoſt, to adde vnto it the fire? Shall it be therefore neceſſary to conſtitute a baptiſme of the fire, as ſome do ſay, that ſome Chriſtians which are amongſt y Indians, Aethiopians & Perſians do, who for that Indians cauſe did vſe the fire for baptiſme of the fire?

Euſebius.

One may well perceiue there, that Sainct Iohn taketh the fire by a Metaphore: and that he vnderſtandeth no other thing by the fire, then the holy Ghoſt, of whom he hath already ſpokē the better to expound the nature of the ſame: for as the fire, is pure & cleane, and cannot ſuffer any ſpot The holy ghoſt is a fire. or filth, but purgeth, maketh cleane, & illuminateth the conſciences, & enflameth them to the loue of God. For which cauſe, he was ſent vnto y Apoſtles in y liknes of tongues Act. 2. a. 3 of fire: the which S. Iohn did foreſée & foreſpeak off, vſing ſuch wordes.

Theophilus.

Thy expoſition doth pleaſe me very much. Wherefore if thou makeſt it no difficultie, to take in that place the fire, for the ſpirit of God & for more ample expoſitiō of his nature & properties, wherfore oughteſt thou to make a doubt to take y water in that place for that ſame ſignification, ſéeing y agréeing y the water hath with the nature of y holy Ghoſt? For there is no leſſe reaſon: but a great deale more appearance. For Sainct Iohn putteth the holy Ghoſt firſt, & the fire afterwards. Wherfore it ſéemeth, either that he vnderſtandeth two thinges ſeperated: or that he expoundeth the thing more cléere, by a more darker thing: Although that thy aunſwere doth ſufficiently ſatiſfye that obiection. But in that place Ieſus Chriſt putteth y water firſt: & afterwards, as if hée would Holy Ghoſt vvater expound his Metaphore and compariſon, and giue vnto it more greater brightneſſe, he declareth what he would ſignifie by that water: to wit, the holy Ghoſt: vnto whom he giueth that name for many cauſes. Firſt, bicauſe that as the fire is an element meruailous pure and cleane, and ſo neceſſary vnto mans life, that it is impoſſible for men to lack it, ſo is it of y water: the which is alſo by nature cléere, pure and cleane and very proper for to repreſent the ſame of the holy Ghoſt. For it waſheth, purifieth, cleanſeth and refreſheth the hearts and conſciences, for to comfort them, and to make them bring foorth fruite pleaſing vnto God: in ſuch ſort that the water cauſeth the earth to fructifie & renoweth and maketh it fertile, & waſheth away the filthineſſe Heb. 6. b. 7 from the body. It quencheth and putteth out in lyke manner the fire and heate of wicked carnall concupiſcences, as the water quencheth out the fire: and quēcheth the thirſt and alteration of the poore féebled ſoules, & refreſheth them for euer. The ſeconde cauſe is, that hée would haue opened vnto vs the intelligence and vnderſtanding of ceremonies, baptiſmes and purifycations conteyned in the law of Moſes & of y prophets in like manner, by which the holy ghoſt was promiſed, chiefly by Eſay & Ezechiel: vnto Eſa. 44. . 1 Ezech. 36. g. 33. whom he maketh alluſion & hath had the regard thervnto. Therefore he would expound them vnto vs, and giue vs to vnderſtand, that thoſe waters promiſed of God, did ſignifie none other thing, thē the aboūdance of the holy ghoſt, which ought to be ſhed foorth vpon all fleſh, as a riuer and a floud of water, whiche watereth and ouerfloweth all the earth. The which Sainct Peter witneſſeth to haue bene Act. 2. 2. 1 accompliſhed both in him and in the other Diſciples of Ieſus Chriſt, the day of Pentecoſt, according to y prophecie of Ioel. And therefore Ieſus Chriſt, would as well in Ioel. 2. g. 29 that place, as in ſpeaking vnto the Samaritane, and bidding thoſe which were in the temple to come drinke of thoſe liuing Iohn. 4. b. 14 & 7. f. 38 waters, vſe thoſe manners of ſpeakings: And for to declare vnto vs in like manner, to what ende he hath inſtituted the ſigne of the water, in the baptiſme. And that it is true, I doe take Sainct Iohn for a witneſſe: who expounding the words of his Maſter, ſaith: that he vnderſtandeth by thoſe waters, y holy Ghoſt y which the beléeuers ought to receiue. Thirdly, by that forme of figured ſpeaking, be teacheth vs in like manner, what the Chriſtian man ought to bée, that is, regenerated by the holy Ghoſt, ſetting foorth the water and the winde, which are bodyes more ſubtill, thinner, cléerer, & purer then the earth, which is an elemēt more weightier, vnpurer, thicker and materyall. Theſe wordes then doe ſignifie as much as if hée had ſayde, that in ſtéede of that weightie, earthlye, carnall and corruptible man, wée muſt be regenerated into a newe man, heauenlye, ſpirituall and perfect: as much differing from this héere whiche is earthly and fallinge, as the water and the winde doe differ from the earth: And it muſt be that the ſame is done by the holy Ghoſt which is the true water, which maketh that purification in vs.

Euſebius.

Thy expoſition is not without a fayre ſhew. But ought I therefore the ſooner to receyue it, then the ſame of the auncient Doctours, who in that place by the water, haue vnderſtanded the baptiſme whiche is giuen by the water: and chiefely Saincte Iohn Chriſoſtome.

Theophilus.

I am well content, to magnifie with the auncients In. Io. ca. 3 hom. 24. the Sacraments, as much as ſhall be poſſible: So that thou wilt vnderſtande them ſo as they themſelues would they ſhould be vnderſtanded. For although that I would receiue the expoſition of Chriſoſtome, it followeth not therefore, that by the ſame one may conclude, the element of the water to be ſo neceſſary vnto ſaluation, that without the ſame, man cannot obteine it. For wée muſt conſider, that when the ſcripture & the auncient Doctors do ſpeake of the ſacraments, they haue not regarde onely The ſtile of the ſcripture & of the auncient Doctors touching the ſacraments to the outward ſigne, but do ſtaye themſelues principally vpon the thing ſignified by them, the which they doe vnderſtand properly. And therefore following their intellygence, we may expounde thoſe wordes after that ſence, as if Ieſus Chriſt did ſay: hée which ſhall not waſh away his ſinnes, which ſhall not receiue truely the holy Ghoſt, and which ſhall not be receiued into my Church, and into my flocke, after the manner as I haue ordeyned that hée ſhoulde doe by the baptiſme, ſhall not enter into the kingdome of God. It followeth not therefore, that he which ſhall haue héere all the thinges compriſed and ſignified by the baptiſme, ought to bée reiected and forſaken of God, if he lacke but the water. But yet the better to content thée, I will declare vnto thée euidently, that not onely the auncient Doctors, but alſo the ſcholaſticalles and queſtionaries, doe confirme my ſentence. For the maſter of the ſentences, hauing moued the ſame queſtion which Sent. 4. diſt. 4. His autem. thou haſt propoūded, touching thoſe words of Ieſus chriſt, aunſwered that the ſame place ought to be vnderſtanded, of thoſe which may be baptiſed, and doe make none accompt The expoſition of the ſchoolemen vpon the place of the 3. chapter of Saint ohn of it: or that one may thus expound it: he which ſhall not be regenerate of the water & the holy Ghoſt, y is to ſay, of that regeneration which is made by the water & the holy Ghoſt ſhall not be ſaued. Now y regeneration cannot be made onely by the baptiſme, but alſo thorow penance and by the bloud. Behold the very wordes of the maſter of the ſentences who vnderſtandeth by the bloud, the ſame of the Martyrs, which is ſhed for the witneſſe of the truth. For your owne doctours perceiuing the abſurdities & inconueniences which would followe if one would vnderſtand that place of Ieſus Chriſt of the exterior baptiſme, and to Three ſortes of baptiſme take it rig rouſly haue béene compelled to ſay, that there ſhoulde be three ſortes of baptiſme, that is to ſaye, of the De conſ. diſt. 4. ca. baptiſ. Gloſ. ſſ. Bap. water: of the holy Ghoſt: and of bloud: by the whiche diuiſion, they doe confeſſe openly, that there is an other kinde of baptiſme, then the ſame of the water, by the which man may be ſaued. There is the baptiſme of the holy Ghoſt and of faith, which may be without the ſame of the water. Vpon which the maiſter of the ſentences Sent. 4. diſt. 4. His autem Aug. de vni bap alledgeth Auguſtine, ſaying: Thou doeſt demaund which is greateſt, either faith, or the water? I doubt not but that thou wilt aunſwere vnto mée, that it is the faith. If then that which is leaſt can ſanctifie, ſhal not that which is greater do it better, to wit, the faith, of which Ieſus Iohn. •• . c. 25 Chriſt hath ſaid: he that beléeueth on mée, yea though he were dead, yet ſhall he liue.

Euſebius.

Obiection of the neceſſitie of baptiſme Aug. ad Fortunat. De conſ. diſt. 4. ca. Cathecumenian. S. Auguſtine neuertheleſſe concludeth of the words of Ieſus Chriſt, that none can come vnto eternall life, without the ſacrament of baptiſme: but thoſe which do ſhead their bloud for the trueth, in the Church. But which is more, he ſayth: we do not beléeue that any Cathecumenian hath eternall life, although that he ſhall dye in good workes, if he be not baptiſed or martyred. You do well knowe that in the auncient Church, thoſe which had receiued the Goſpell, and were not yet baptiſed, were called Cathecumenes, bicauſe that one Cathecumenes. had inſtructed them in the faith. And following that ſame matter, he ſaith more ouer. We beléeue that there is no way of ſaluation but for thoſe that are baptiſed.

Theophilus.

I beleeue that thou art not ignorant, how your Sent. 4. diſt. 4. q. 1. ca. 10. 〈◊◊◊〉 aur. ope. de ver contra 〈◊〉 1. p •• ce. owne doctours, do anſwere to that place: Among which Holcot repugneth Saint Auguſtine, ſaying: that his exception is not ſufficient, and that the man which knoweth Ieſus Chriſt, may be ſaued without baptiſme, by an other meanes then by martyrdome. But which is more, he affirmeth, that the man which beléeueth himſelfe to be perfectly baptiſed, & yet neuertheleſſe is not, ſhalbe out of all daunger of dampnation: and ſaith that that ſaith ſhoulde ſ rue hun to ſaluation, although that it were builded vpon a falſitie. But what is he among vs, which is perfectly aſſured whether he be baptiſed or no. Howe can we knowe it, but by the witneſſe of an other? Therefore the ma ſter of the ſentences aunſwereth, vppon the ob •• ctions made by thée, that we muſt vnderſtande the wordes of ſaint Auguſtine, according to the declaration that he hath giuen in other places, in which he entreateth that matter more amplie: And therefore ſaith he, we muſt vnderſtande thoſe thinges, of thoſe which haue had Sent. 4. diſt. 4. His autem. Solution. the time and leaſure for to be baptiſed, & haue not done it. For if any hauing faith and charitie woulde be baptiſed, Saluation vvith ou baptiſme. and cannot, being ouertaken with neceſſitie, the benignitie & liberalitie of y moſt puiſſant God, recompenſeth Aug. li. de fide. ad Pet. & in Eccle. do. ca. 44. y which wanted in the ſacrament. For when he may pay, if he do not pay, he abideth bound: But when he cannot and yet neuertheles he is willing to do it, God which hath not tyed his power vnto the ſacraments, imputeth it not vnto him.

I haue alledged vnto thée the very wordes euen as they be written in the booke of the maiſter of the ſentences which yet proueth by ſaint Auguſtine, that the inuiſible ſactification, hath béene in ſome, and hath profited Aug. in leui. q. 88. them without the viſible ſacramentes, ſaying after this manner: the viſible ſanctification, the which is done by the viſible ſacrament, may be without the inuiſible: but it cannot profite. Yet we muſt not neuertheleſſe contemne and diſpiſe the viſible ſacrament. For the contemner of the ſame, cannot be ſactified inuiſib •• e. And notwithſtanding that Holcot alloweth that which others haue written of the baptiſme of bloude, he declareth yet neuertheleſſe ſufficiently ynough, that he which without Sent. . diſt. . q. . caſ. 10 Baptiſme of bl •• le being baptiſed ſheddeth his bleude, for the name of Ieſus Chriſt, is not baptiſed by that bloude which hath béene ſhed: But that the Church holdeth him for baptiſed, bicauſe that by the ſame, he hath ſufficiently witneſſed, that he hath not diſpiſed baptiſme, but that he woulde willingly receiue it, if it had béene poſſible for him: Sith that he hath ſhewed ſuch faith in the Goſpell of Ieſus Chriſt.

Euſebius.

I graunt that thou ſaieſt, as touching men of age, vnto whome the faith and repentaunce doe recompence the want of baptiſme. But of young infantes it is otherwiſe. For ſith that there is neither aith nor repentance in them, they cannot be ſaued without baptiſme. Therefore ſaith the maiſter of the ſentences, that thoſe which dye without baptiſme, yea though The ſentence of Saint Anguſt touching the children that die vvithout baptiſme L . de fid. ad pe re dia. De conſ. diſt. 4. ca. Fer miſſume one bring them to bee baptiſed, ſhalbee dampned: and doth proue it by ſaint Auguſtine, ſaying: holde this for a ſuertie and doubt nothing at all of it, that not onely men hauing already reaſon, but alſo the young infants, which begin to liue in their mothers belly, and doe there die, without the ſacrament of holy baptiſme which is giuen in the name of the father, the ſonne, and the holy ghoſt: or thoſe which without the ſame doe paſſe out of this worlde after that they are borne, ſhalbe puniſhed with eternall fire. For although that they haue not had ſinne by theyr proper acte and woorke, yet they haue neuertheleſſe drawen vnto them by their conception and natiuitie, the dampnation of originall The Limbe of the young infants deſtroyed ſinne.

Theophilus.

Thou haſt nowe beaten downe the Lymbe of the young infants. For if the wordes of Saint Auguſtine be true, according to the ſence whiche thou giueſt vnto them, the little infantes dying without baptiſme, are all dampned and puniſhed in eternall re. They are then in hell. Wherefore it is not nowe néede to forge and make for them a Lymbe. By that meanes all the doctrine of your doctours is here ouerthrowne. And therefore they haue not all allowed that ſentence, but haue iudged it too rigorous and cruell, in ſuch ſort, that ſome, for that cauſe, haue called S. Auguſtine, the hangman of the young In ants: notwithſtanding The hangm of in ants that he is well worthie that they doe ſpeake of him more reucrently. For I do not thinke, that he himſelfe would that theſe wordes ſhoulde be taken after ſuch r gour and extremitie. And therefore it is néede to conſider the occaſions which might haue moued him to write after that ſort. For if the neceſſitie and the impoſſibilitie excuſeth the great ones, wherefore ſhall the little ones e leſſe excuſable, which haue yet more excuſe, then the great ones may haue? For when they dye being young, or in their mothers bellie, or out of it, what fault then was in them, that they were not baptiſed? hath God conceiued more greater hatred againſt them then againſt the great ones? although the baptiſme of the water ſhoulde be aſmuch neceſſarie vnto ſaluation, as you do make it, if there be any exception for the ene, by what right & reaſon may it be denyed vnto the others, when the cauſe & the excuſes are equall? But we ought to conſider, that in the t •• e of Saint Auguſtine there might be a great ſort of people, which had not the Sacraments in ſuch eſtimation and reuerence as they ought to haue, (as wée Errors about the Sacraments haue proued it in our time) in which ſome haue ſo much attributed vnto it, that they haue made of the viſible ſignes a Ieſus Chriſt, and an Idole. The others to the contrarie do holde them as ſignes, without vertue and efficacie, no more then the ſignes which the ſouldiours do beare, for to ſhewe what Prince they do ſerue.

Hillarius.

But haue we not had Anabaptiſtes, which would baptiſe them ſelues againe, and haue co demned Anabaptiſts the baptiſme of young Infants, willing to deferre it vntill they ſhould come vnto the age of diſcretion?

Theophilus.

Let vs not doubt, that from the time of Saint Auguſtine, but that there be many founde, more negligent, then they ought to he, touching the ſacramēts: the which thing hath cōpelled the aun ients to magnifie them ſo much. And therefore thoſe which are come after them, not conſidering the cauſes wherefore they did ye ſame, haue taken the wordes rawly, without a fit interpretation, and without taking beede to their manner of ſpeaking rethorically and figuratiuely, which hath beene the cauſe that they haue made Idols, as though the vertue of Ieſus Chriſt, and of the Chriſtian religion were in thoſe viſible ſignes. Wée cannot deny, but that in the time of thoſe good auncient fathers, many after that they had knowen the Goſpell, tarryed not long time to cauſe Baptiſm delaied themſelues to be baptiſed: yea, often times vntill the latter end of their life. Nowe they did the ſame, ſome through negligence others, bicauſe of the opinion that they had, that thorough the baptiſme, all the ſinnes that might be in man, were defaced and put out. For that reaſon they tarryed as long as they could, for to depart out of this world more purer and cleane from their ſinnes. But which is worſe, ſome vnder that hope, did take the greater holdneſſe to ſinne. Whome Chriſoſtome rebuketh, ſhewing vnto them, that peraduenture God wil not giue Chriſ . in epiſt. ad Hebr. De conſ. diſt. 4. ca. quando them the grace, to haue ſpace to be baptiſed, if they did tarrie vntill the houre of their death, and if they did abuſe ſo the baptiſme, as he hath ſéene that it hath happened vnto many, who thorough that vaine hope & truſt, haue béene deceiued. In like manner alſo hath Baſill the great made a ſermon expreſſing that matter and rebuketh very ſharpely thoſe which do ſo. Euen as then the greate and old ones haue delayed their baptiſme, it is not to be doubted, but that for theſe ſame reaſons, they haue done the like towardes their children. And therefore we muſt not be abaſhed, if ſaint Auguſtine hath written and ſpoken after ſuch ſort of baptiſme, for to correct ſuch faultes, negligences and opinions, and the better to incytate and ſtirre vp the Chriſtians to giue their indeuours in that, as well for them as for their little children. For that To baptiſe twice in a yere. cauſe it was auncyently eſtabliſhed in the Church, that they ſhoulde baptiſe twiſe in a yeare. That is to ſay, at Eaſter and at Whitſ •• tyde although that the baptiſme De conſ. diſt. 4. was permitted at all t •• e in caſe of 〈◊〉 . There was yet an other reaſon, which ight haue giuen 〈◊〉 vnto ſaint Auguſtine to ſpeake ſo. He did ſée and pe ce ue that many 〈◊〉 infected with the here •• e of the Pelagians Pelagians. which did not attribute much vnto the grace of God, and did 〈◊◊〉 at all originall 〈◊〉 , but did greatly mag •• fie the vertues and ſtrengthes of men. or which cauſ they had not the baptiſme in grea e eſtimation.

And therefore woulde aint Auguſtine declare the nature of originall ſinne, and induce men to giue and Original ſinne beare more greater honour vnto the ſacramentes. Then the better for to manifeſt the ſame, he declareth howe the young infants which haue not yet committed any a tuall ſinne, are not yet neuertheleſſe without ſinne worthy of death and eternall dampnation, bicauſe of their corrupt nature which they haue drawen, as from a right inheritance and proper heritage, of their fathers and mothers in their conception and natiuitie. For they haue béene conceiued and borne in ſinne and in quitie: and Pſa. 51. 27 can be none others, then ſuch as the ſinnefull beginning, from which they are come. For that whiche is borne of the •• eſh, is fleſh: And a wolfe cannot ingender but Io n. . 2. a young Woolfe: a Serpent a young Serpent. And euen as wée doe not leaue off or ceaſe to hate a young Woolfe, although that he hath not yet eaten any ſhéepe, or a Serpent, notwithſtanding that he hath not yet caſt forth his venym, but do iudge him worthie of death, bicauſe of the peruerſe nature that is in them: ſo ought we to eſtéeme, and thinke that God hath no leſſe occaſion to hate and condempne vs, euen from our mothers bellie, bicauſe of our per erſitie and naturall malyce engendred with vs. And though he ſhoulde dampne vs eternally, he ſhoulde doe vs no wrong, but onely that which our nature meriteth and deſerueth. For although that the young infant hath not yet done any worke, which wée may Iudge to be euill and wicked, ſith that he hath not yet the vnderſtanding, diſcretion nor the power to doe it, it followeth not therefore, but that the peruerſitie and malyce, which is naturall in man, hath alreadie his roote in him, as one part of his paternall in erita nce, the which cannot pleaſe God. For although that it bringeth not yet forth hir fruites, yet they doe remaine ſtill there, as in their roote, which will bring them forth in his time: As the venym is alreadie in a Serpent, although that he bite not: and the nature of a Woolfe, in a young Woolfe, howe innocent ſo euer he ſeemeth to b •• .

But from whence doe the fruites of the fleſhe procéede, and the ſinnes which man committeth, when hée is of age, but of that vicious roote, of that originall ſinne, and corrupt nature? Then Saint Auguſtine did no wronge, to aggrauate that natural corruption, and to ſay that the infant, from his mothers belly is culpable of e 〈◊〉 fire, not onely the men that are of age, if they do dye without baptiſme: if he doe vnderſtande by the baptiſme the grace and mercie of GOD which by the ſame is repreſented and communicated vnto the electe: As I thinke verely, that he did chiefely vnderſtande it.

For if he woulde take it by the rigour, for the exteriour baptiſme, and the materiall ceremony, I cannot nor may not agrée with him: ſith that hée lledgeth not ſufficient witneſſes of the holy ſcriptures, for ſo proue that propoſition ſo rigorous and ſo repugnant vnto the b untie and grace of GOD, as wee haue alreadie ſufficiently declared: But I eſtéeme and iudge rather, that hée vnderſtandeth by the baptiſme made in the name of the Father, the Sonn and of the holye Ghoſt, the vertue and efficacie and the thing figured by the exteriour Baptiſme, whiche is the true ſigne and witneſſe of him, whiche is ſpirituall and interiour, as the ſigne and exteriour ceremonye, by the which yet neuertheleſſe, hée ſignifieth and comprehendeth all the vertue of the baptiſme of Ieſus Chriſt, after the manner, as the holy ſcripture hath accuſtomed to vſe. For in the ſame Signes and figures for the things ligned & figured the ſigne & the figure are oftentimes taken for the thing ſigned and figured, comprehending the whole for parte bicauſe that the ſcripture addreſſeth it vnto the faithfull, which do not receiue the ſacraments in vaine, and without a ſpirituall meaning: Therefore the Apoſtle ſaith: All ye that are baptiſed haue put on Chriſt. And yet neuertheleſſe, Symon the Magitian was baptiſed outwardly Gal. 3. d 27 The ſayth of Simon Act. 8. b. 13. by Philip, and yet I do not beléeue that euer he did put on Chriſt, ſith that he did not truely beléeue.

Euſebius.

Notwithſtanding it is written in the Actes, that he belieued.

Theophilus.

It is certeine. But yet neuertheles he hath well declared af ewardes, that the ſame which hée hath done was but diſſembling, and that he had neuer true faith. But ſaint Luke, who hath written the hiſtory ſpeaketh after the common manner of ſpeaking, as wée doe ſay, that a man hath receiued the goſpell: or that a Iewe hath made himſelfe or is become a chriſtian, and hath beléeued in Ieſus which yet neuertheles may doe it, by hypocriſſe, and not in déede. Yet neuertheleſſe we doe ſpeake euen as the thinges are ſhewed vnto vs, leauing the iudgment of y heart vnto God. So hath ſaint Auguſtine expounded that which ſaint Luke hath ſpoken that Symon Magus hath beléeued.

Hillarius.

I thinke, Euſebius, that thou oughteſt to content thyſelfe with the aunſwere which Theophilus made vnto thée. For it is ſo cleare and eaſie, and ſo much confirmable vnto the Annallogie of the faith, that none can ſpeake againſt it, except he do loue rather to contende and ſtriue thorowe obſtination, then to content himſelfe with reaſon. And if thou doe diligently conſider, and well way that which hath béene aunſwered vnto thée, thou m iſt profite by it many wayes. For by the ſame thou maiſt knowe what ought to be the vſe of the ſacraments: what ought to be the true baptiſme and the true regeneration of a Chriſtian. If thou doſt vnderſtande that, thou ſhall bée 〈◊〉 more in doubt, nor in 〈◊〉 of the younge Infant •• which dye without baptiſme: But wylt leaue them in the handes of God, and 〈◊〉 refor e all vnto his mercy. And if thou bée once come vnto that pointe, th •• ſhalt alſo knowe the 〈◊〉 o thoſe which doe carie their children that are bor •• dead 〈◊◊〉 they dyd in that 〈◊〉 vnto 〈◊◊〉 of grace of Geneua, or vnto our 〈◊〉 of Lau anne.

Thomas.

They did alſo cary them vnto the holye croſſe, and vnto our Ladye of Butter. Our Lady of butter.

Hillarius.

Ther 〈◊〉 now then but a Lady of Chéeſe, 〈◊◊◊〉 of Butter, the whiche is nowe altogether 〈◊〉 . W •• ſhoulde haue but a little iudgement, if wée ••• we not thoſe great abuſes, and to iudge of thoſe falſe 〈◊〉 . Further more, by th ſe ſame reaſons thou maiſt iudge of the 〈◊〉 of thoſe which doe giue authoritie vnto the wiſe and 〈◊〉 •• emon to baptiſ the younge 〈◊〉 of vvomen 〈◊◊〉 they 〈◊◊◊◊〉 daunger of 〈◊〉

Euſebius.

〈◊◊◊〉 there in that Hillanius Th •• 〈…〉 can tell thée.

Theoph •••• .

There is firſt of all this euill, that thoſe that require ſuch baptiſme, are of an opinion that it is ſo neceſſary vnto 〈◊〉 , that without the ſame their childe cannot be ſaned. Wherein they doe 〈◊〉 vnto the grace of Ieſus Chriſt, and doe preſume 〈◊〉 of the vertue of his holy ſpirite, and do render publicke and open witneſſe of their ſuperſtition and infidelitie. Againe, they ſinne in that that they doe diſhonour the Sacramentes, when they giue and beſtowe them vnto others then vnto thoſe vnto whome God hath giuen the charge to adminiſter them. Wherefore they cannot fayle, either on the one ſide or on the other, but that they are greatly to bée rebuked. For if they doe adde to it neceſſitie, it appeareth already into what errour they are. If they ſaye that they doe not put to it neceſſitie, and that they doe not tye the grace of God vnto the corruptible elementes, and exteriour miniſtrie, wherefore then doe they giue that authoritie vnto woemen, without the word of God? Wherefore doo they take any other 〈◊〉 then the ſame which is giuen them of Ieſus Chriſt? Wherefore doe they ſeperate that which God hath ioyned together? For the baptiſme & the adminiſtration of Sacraments are ioyned together with the 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 be ſeperated, without ouer throwing the orna which Ieſus Chriſt hath put and ſet in his Church. Nowe euen as the inſtitution of the Sacramentes is a publicke Ceremony and ioyned together with the miniſtrie of the Goſpel, ſo ought they to be Miniſters of Sacraments adminiſtred publyckly in the Church, by thoſe ſelfe ſame vnto whome the miniſtrie of the Goſpel is committed, and which of God and of the ſame are lected paſtor and miniſters. And therefore Ieſus Chriſt hath not giuen charge to baptiſe vnto others then vnto thoſe vnto whom Mat. 8. d 18 he hath commaunded to preach his goſpel, & to exerciſe the Euangelicall miniſtrie in his Church. For it is expre •• y 1. Cor. 14, . 34 1. Timo. 2. d. 1 Eccleſiaſtical offices. forbidden woemen to ſpeake in the Church, and to vſurpe vpon them any eccleſiaſtical office: the which thing is not permitted but vnto woemen, & yet not vnto all indiffer •• ly, but vnto thoſe which are elected & lawefully ordeyned to the ſame, the which he doth ſufficiently declare, when he cōmaunded by his Apoſtle, y all things ſhould be done honeſtly . Cor. 14. g. 40 & in order. For if in y •• uile adminiſtration order be required, & that it is not lawful to exerciſe y offices, but to the officers, d we thinke y Ieſus Chriſt requireth leſſe in the eccleſiaſticall policie? and that hée will ſuffer, that the ſame that he hath ſet ſhould be ouerthrowen? Thoſe then that will allow the baptiſme of women, ought firſt to ſhew in what place God hath ordeyned it: what witneſſe or example of the Scripture they haue. If that is wantinge them, as I am well aſſured that it is, they ſhall bée conſtrayned to confeſſe, that that baptiſme is giuen wythout fayth, and that it is builded but vpon mans opinion.

For faith commeth by the hearinge of the worde of Rom. 10, d. 17 God. If then it haue not the word of God, it can haue no faith. If it haue no fayth, it is then ſinne. For all that Rom. 14, d, 23 whiche is done without fayth is ſinne. We maye then Mat. 21, c. 25 Mar, 11, d, 30 Luc, 2 , , 4 aſke them, euen as Ieſus Chriſt aſked the Phariſes, touching the baptiſme of Iohn. Baptiſt: to witte, whether it were from heauen or of men. Alſo in lyke manner that baptiſme of woemen, whether it be of God or of men? If they anſwere y it •• 〈◊〉 God, where are the witneſſes of the Scripture. I they anſwere it is of men, as they ſhall 〈◊〉 conſtrayne to ſay, they ſhalbe compelled to confeſſe, that it is the procéeded from an other author contrary vnto God: •• th that Ieſus Chriſt directeth men vnto heauen and vnto God, declaring thereby that that which is not of the one, is of his cōtrary. I cannot then conclude but that that baptiſme is procéeded of any other, but of the aduerſary of God, which would aduance, women vnto the miniſterie and eccleſiaſticall offices, from which God woulde drawe and pull them from it, for to declare themſelues in all thinges contrarye vnto GOD. Euen ſo hath hée done vvomen prieſtes Martioniſtes Epiph. Tom. 3. lib. 1. contr. Mart. h . 42 De conſ. diſt. 4. ca. Baptiſandi, & conſtat. Mul er. E con . Car •• 〈◊〉 30. q. 3. Super quis. Vnde verſus ex Chanſ. de Sacra. Baptizat. laicus, multer ſi mors t meatur. Eſt tamen officium ſolum modo preſbyterorum. Mortis in periculo ſufficit omnis homo. amonge the Pa •• ms, which haue vſed woemen Prieſtes: And amonge the heretickes Martioniſtes, who with their maſter Martion, haue permitted woemen to baptyſe, as Epiphanius wytneſſeth. Beholde the examples & witneſſes which you may haue, for your baptiſme of women.

Euſebius.

I doe agrée vnto all that whiche thou ſayeſt, as touching the publyke office, and hauinge no neceſſytie. For the Councells, Canons and auncient Doctours, doe not ſaye much leſſe, but doe witneſſe playnelye, that it is not lawfull for anye perſon to baptiſe, but vnto the Miniſters of the Church, as the Biſhoppes and Prieſtes doe. But they doe vnderſtande the ſame, when there is no extraordinarye neceſſitie, and daunger of death. For in ſuch caſe they doe diſpence and permit to doe it, not onely vnto lay men and handycrafts men, but in like mann r nto women.

Theophilus.

Wée doe not diſpute of that which men do permit, but of that which god hath cōmaunded. I finde no neceſſitie, but whē God giueth vs y means, & that ther may be falt in vs. Neuertheles if it be néedful to arme th ſelues with y authoritie of men, in this matter, yet wée will proue that the 〈◊◊◊〉 for v . For firſt of all, 〈◊◊〉 i 〈◊〉 that •• er Ieſus Chriſt hath ſayd •• to 〈◊◊〉 and baptiſe, Wherefore ſainct Auguſt •• ath 〈◊〉 •• 〈◊◊〉 ••• ly of the woeman, but of the pri •• te and p •• ticul r man, to witte, whether hée do 〈◊〉 i 〈◊◊◊〉 i 〈◊〉 of neceſ 〈◊〉 To the whi h é 〈◊◊◊◊〉 the rather for to 〈◊〉 it th •• 〈◊◊◊◊◊〉 the eaſ , D c •• ſ. diſt. 4. in neceſ •• tate Auguſt. contr. parm . li. 2. c . 13. wi e it is a thing 〈◊〉 that •• 〈◊〉 ot 〈◊〉 that it is lawfull, but confe •• eth 〈◊〉 that there 〈◊〉 certeyne fault, although that ée made it light. But he hath taken it, as it happen th 〈◊〉 •• to the good Mariners, who through the iol •• c s •• the 〈◊〉 are conſtrayned to 〈◊〉 from their right 〈◊〉 and to followe whether the tempeſtes and windes will driue and cary them. There s no doubte, that 〈◊〉 from the time of Sain t Auguſtine, that errour and cuſtome was not any thing at all receyued. Wherefore Sainct Auguſtine •• rſt not altogether condempne it. No more alſo durſt hée o allowe it, nor altogether excuſe it o 〈◊〉 Yet neuertheleſſe, if wée doe followe the rule of Ieſus Chriſte, that will put vs ut of all doub e. Althoughe that wée yet haue on our ſide, the fourth Councell of Africa, whiche hath forbidden the ſame, without any exception. The ouncel of Africa. C nc. Carth. 4. C •• . 100. It is moſt true, that in the e s f Gra ian, that Canon is alledged, but not accordinge to the truth: as it is written in the booke of Councells. For hée addeth to it the exception, whiche is not in the true oryginall.

Hillarius.

Althoughe that here w re none but the witneſſes of the Prieſtes, they doe ſufficientlye declare that it is euill. For when one bringeth the hildren to ée baptiſed, they doe demaunde: is there any thinge but good? They demaund the ſame, for to know whether that the Infant hath bene baptiſed by the woem n. If it hath not bene baptiſed, th •• aunſwere, that all is well or there is nothinge but good. It followeth then that th re was an euill when the childe was baptiſed by them.

Euſebius.

They d •• not vnderſtand it ſo as thou takeſt it.

Hillarius.

I beléeue thée well, and I doubt not but that God will make th m ſpeake, •• he hath made Ca p •• es to prophecie, without vnderſtanding themſelues.

Euſebius.

For that thou 〈◊◊〉 thy ſelfe ſo much, that we haue no witnes of the Scripture, how wilt thou the The example of Zipphora. Exo. 4. f. 25. excuſe Zipphora, the wi e of Moſes, who circumciſed hir ſonne Eleaſer, in Moſes own preſence, how hath then Moſes pe ••• itte the ſame?

Theophilus.

The example is not like, but rather againſt thée, then for thée. For firſt, thou ſéeſt that Moſes did not eſtéeme the circumciſion ſo neceſſary, as you eſtéeme the baptiſme: ſith that he made ſo ſmall accompt to circumciſe his onne, although that he had more expreſſe commaundement, th •• we haue of baptiſme: Furthermore, notwithſtanding that that place is very obſ ure, bicauſe that Moſes rehearſeth the hiſtory o ſhort and briefly. Yet neuertheleſſe i one doe examine it throughly, one ſhall not finde that that example can be better applyed, then to the iſpi •• ng of the circumciſion and of the Sa •• a •• e •• es. For that which is written, that the Lord or his Angell, came before him and aſſalted him, minding to kill him. 〈◊〉 ently declareth that the Lord was ang •• , bicauſe that Moſes, notwithſtandinge that he had the ••• e and the occaſion to circumciſe his ſonne, hath not done ſuch diligence as he ought to haue done. Wherefore the Lord puniſhed him. But as ſoone as the childe was circumciſed, he was deliuered from that daunger, and the Lord did not purſue him anye more: But there is an other reaſon, when the Infantes doe dye, and that there is no negligence, nor default in the parentes. As touching that that Zipphora did the office to circumciſe, & not Moſes, we muſt conſider that then Moſes coulde not doe that, bicauſe that he was preſſed and grieued by the hande of God, who would haue killed him. Wherefore, for to ſaue his lyfe, Zipphora laide to hi 〈◊◊〉 For none other coulde haue done it but ſhée.

Euſebius.

Nowe thou art compelled to confeſſe that which I demaund. For thou wilt excuſe Zipphora bycauſ of the neceſſitie whiche conſtrained hir: no more alſo doe wée allow the baptiſme adminiſtred by woemen and others then the miniſters of the Church: but in caſe of neceſſitie.

Theophilus.

I haue yet other reaſons againſt thée. The firſt is that wée doe not reade, that God hath giuen expreſſe commaundement vnto men onely, to circumciſe, as he hath do e of baptiſing. The ſecond is, there was not th •• ny forme of the Church, nor polici and publike miniſtrie amonge the Medianites, and where Moſes was.

The third is, that it is lykeſt to ée true, that Zipphora did that by the commaundement of Moſes hir huſbande, who feeling himſelfe ſtroke of God, admonyſhed hir to do that for to ſaue his life. For otherwiſe, how could he haue vnderſtanded and knowen, that hir huſ ande had bene in daunger of death, for ſuch cauſe, if hée had not aduertyſed hir of it. Although that Moſes writinge briefly hath not re ••• rſed all thoſe thinges at large. But he hath made them ſufficiently to bée vnderſtanded. Nowe if Moſes did commaunde hir, ſhe did it not without the worde of God: Sith that Moſes was a Prophet: yea him, by whome God addreſſed and gaue his ordinaunce in the Church of Iſrael. Furthermore, although that it be ſo, yet that example is not ſufficient, for to builde the baptiſme of woemen, againſt the ordinance of Ieſus Chriſt: For we ought The examples of the Saincts ought not to be all dravven into a generall conſequence not to draw into a generall conſequence, the perticuler examples of Sainctes: and that which by a ſinguler priuiledge and diſpenſation hath bene ſomtime permitted them, if we haue no expreſſe commaundement as they haue had: or the ſame occaſions and circumſtaunces. Beſides that, that there be ſome examples of holy men, the which the Scripture alloweth not alwayes, notwithſtanding that it rehearſeth them, or if it doe allowe them in thoſe there, it followeth not therefore, that it doth the like in vs, if we haue not a certeine vocation and calling of God.

Thomas.

I greatly feare Euſebius, that in diſputing after this manner, the Lymbe and the Purgatorye which thou vpholdeſt and mainteineſt, will be altogether deſtroied and ouerthrowen. For as farre as I can iudge, the ſame of the young children is altogether throwen down to the ground, if thou do not helpe it. The Purgatorye hath but a little more holde: There remayneth now but the Limbe The Limbe of the Fathers. of the fathers, of which I do very much deſire to know the reſolution, and to vnderſtande whether it bée all one with Paradiſe. For Theophilus hath already almoſt proued it to bée ſo, ſpeaking of the eſtate of thoſe which were in Abrahams boſome.

Euſebius.

I do not deny but that the auncient Fathers, which were deteined in the Limbes, had already a certein participation of the celeſtial ioyes, but not ſo great, as they haue had after the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt.

Theophilus.

I hope that we ſhalbe ſoone agréed and that there ſhall be in the ende no other difference betwéene the Sainctes which are dead vnder the olde and new Teſtament, then betwéene the liuing, which haue bene both in the one and in the other. Thou canſt not deny 〈◊〉 but that One onely church and eternall. the Church of Ieſus Chriſt hath begun, thence ye creation of the world, & the firſt that euer was laſt & righteous, & the which ſhal ſo continue vnto the ende & concluſion of the world, & ſhall continue eternally.

Euſebius.

I do confeſſe no leſſe.

Theophilus.

I followeth by the ſame reaſon, that the Church of the patriarches & prophets, which haue ben before the comming of our Lord Ieſus Chriſt is none other but ye very ſame of his Apoſtles, Euangeliſts & Diſciples: and that the faithfull of the people of Iſrael and thoſe of ye chriſtian people are but one people & one church. For they had one very God: one very Chriſt and the very Heb. •• . c. promiſes: one very ſpirit of faith: and hau eaten of one manner of ſpirituall meate, and did all drinke of one manner 1. Cor. 10. 23. of ſpiritual drinke with vs, as the Apoſtle witneſſeth.

Euſebius.

Then there ſhall be no difference betwéene the auncient Fathers and vs. To what ende then ſerued the comming of Ieſus Chriſt?

Theophilus.

I haue not yet ſayde ſo. For I doe finde great difference.

Euſebius.

What?

Theophilus.

Difference betvvene the old and nevve Teſtament. As great as is betwéene a ſtarre and the Sunne, from the day breake and dawning to hye none: betwéene the ſhadow and the body: betwéene the Image and the truth: betwéene the thing promiſed, and the thing giuen.

Euſebius.

Thou wilt yet come vnto my matter. For it ſéemeth by thoſe wordes, that thou leaueſt to the auncientes but the ſhadowes and figures and that thou giueſt vnto vs the body and the thing figured. There is then great difference.

Theophilus.

Yet thou vnderſtandeſt me not very well. I doe not denye, but that they had all that which wée haue: but not ſo cléerely, ſo excellently and ſo gloriouſly, nor in ſuch aboundaunce of glory and maieſtie: For by 2. Cor. 3. c. 1 the comming of Ieſus Chriſt the knowledge of God, and the intelligence of the holy Scriptures hath bene more greater, and more ample then before: not onely in the land of Canaan, & to the people of Iſrael, but in all landes, countries Act. . . & nations and the ſpirit of God with all his giftes, graces and riches, hath bene diſtributed in more greater aboundaunce efficacie vertue & magnificence then euer it was

Euſebius.

Difference betvvene the dead vnder the olde and nevve teſtament. That which thou ſpeakeſt off, toucheth not yet but to the liuing which haue liued as well vnder the olde as the new teſtament. But what difference doeſt thou put betwéene the liuing and the dead, vnder the one and the other?

Theophilus.

That ſhould bée too great temeritie and raſhneſſe in vs, to define of the eſtate of the dead, and to affirme any other thing then that which ſtandeth manifeſtly vnto vs by the holy Scriptures. Yet neuertheleſſe, becauſe that in the ſame there are ſome places, which giue light vnto vs of that ſame. I will not make it any greate repugnaunce to putte in that matter, ſuch certeine difference betwéene them, as wée haue put betwne the liuing.

Euſebius.

It ſéemeth then, that thou wouldeſt ſay that the gates of Paradiſe were no leſſe open, before the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt then afterwardes. And that there was none other difference, betwéene the heauenly ioy and fruition of the auncient fathers, and of the Chriſtians that are deade, ſaying that nowe all haue it more ample and more excellent.

Theophilus.

As for my part there where I haue not the ſcripture well expreſſed, I doe leaue vnto euery one his frée iudgement, ſo that it be ruled by the worde of God. Touching my part, I will expounde vnto thée, that that I can drawe & comprehend out of the holy ſcriptures, by the which it is ſufficiently made knowen vnto vs, that notwithſtanding that Ieſus Chriſt hath béene immolated and offered vpon the Croſſe for to ſatiſfie the righteouſneſſe of God for vs, at the time which was ordeined him of the father, yet hath he béene The ſacrific of Chriſt is eternall. 1. Cor. 5. b. 7 Heb. 13. b. 8 ne ertheleſſe killed and offered in the preſence of God, from the beginning of the worlde. For it is written: Ieſus Chriſt was yeſterday and to day, and the ſame contynueth for euer. By thoſe wordes, the Apoſtle comprehendeth all the tyme paſt, preſent and to come. To which Ieſus Chriſt himſelfe had-regarde, when he ſaide, Abraham did ſée my dayes and reioyced. For although Iohn. 8. g. 58 that in reſpect of vs he was crucyfied in the fulneſſe of time, in thoſe latter dayes, yet neuertheleſſe in the preſence of God, he hath béene a •• ayes: and his ſacrifice hath béene eternally preſented vnto him. For with God there is up difference of times, as in vs, bicauſe that all Rom. 8. c. 15 Gal. 4. . 4 thinges are preſent to him, and that he is aboue, and out of the ſame. For a thouſande yeares before him, are to Pſal. 90. a. 4. . Pet. 3. b, 8 him but as one day. Wherefore in the ſame ſort as the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſte ſerueth nowe to vs, which beleeue that he hath béene crucified for vs, although that he hangeth no more in the croſſe, ſo I holde it for certeine, that it profiteth thoſe which liued before that he was cruci •• ed, and haue beléeued that he ought to come and dye for them, euen as we beléeue that he is come, and that he is deade for vs.

Euſebius.

To what ende hath ſerued then his comming?

Theophilus.

Doeſt thou yet not vnderſtande it? If a man were detayned and kept in priſon for certeine debt that he oweth, and that he hath a certeine friend who commeth to be his ſuertie and to pledge him, body for body, and goods for goods, and that the creditor & prince receiueth & alloweth him for his pledge, ſuertie and hoſtage, ſhall not the priſoner be deliuered by meanes of that ſuertie? But yet neuertheleſſe, vpon ſuch condition, that either he, or his ſuertye doe pay and ſatiſfie for him, at the time as ſhalbe appointed him. After Chriſt our ſuertie. Geneſ. 3. c. 15 the ſame manner hath God done, with thoſe good auncyent fathers. For ſithen e that he made the promiſe vnto Adam, of the ſéede of the woman which ſhoulde breake the ſerpents head, the which afterwardes he hath r •••• rated and confirmed more amply and more clearely vnto Abraham, Gen •• . 12. 15 20. 48 2. Reg. 7 Pſal. 40 Pſal. 130 Iacob, Dauid, and to all the other patr ark •• and celebrated by all his Prophetes, and by all the ſacrifices, oblations, figures and ceremonyes commaunded in bys lawe, Ieſus Chriſt offred himſelfe to God his father, for to bee our pledge and ſuertye: and gaue himſelfe to him as a pledge, for all thoſe which haue beléeued in his promiſes, made of him. But vpon ſuch condition, that Iere. 23. . 5 & 3. c. 14 〈◊〉 . . 47 he being very and true God, according to the good pleaſure of the father, for to ſatiſfie his will and his righteouſneſſe, tooke vpon him our fleſh and preſented himſelfe before his iudgement at the time as by his prouidence was conſtituted and appointed him, for to ſatiſfie in our ſtéede. Nowe ſith y Ieſus Chriſt hath once aunſwered for his bretheren beléeuing in him, the heauenly father hath excepted it, aſwell as though, he had alreadie ſatiſfied it, as afterwardes he hath done it in his time.

Euſebius.

Doeſt thou think that 〈◊〉 of glory in the other ly e. there is in the other life any augmentation and increaſe of ioy and of glory?

Theophilus.

To the end thou maiſt not rebuke me in ouer raſh defining of ſuch things, I will propounde vnto thée the witneſſes of the ſcripture, by whiche thou maiſt comprehend that which we may iudge off. Mark then firſt the witneſſe of the Apoſtle, which ſaith, writting of the holy prophets and ſeruants of God which were before the comming of Chriſt: that all thoſe there, hauing Heb. 11. •• . obteyned witneſſe by faith receiued not the promiſe, God hauing prouided a certeine better thing for vs, to the end that they ſhould not be come vnto perfection, without vs. He ſaith not, that they haue altogether receiued the promiſe: For it was made firſt of all to them. But he vnderſtandeth the accompliſhing and the fruite of the ſame, of which they haue not béene altogether depriued: But they haue not had it ſo perfectly, as we haue it nowe: For ſith that he ſpeaketh of fulfilling and ending, he ſignifieth then, that there is alreadie great beginning of felicitie: But the perfection was not yet, nor ſhalbe vntill the conſūmation and reſtoring of all things. For the terme of conſūmation and perfection, are relatiues, the which wée muſt neceſſarily referre vnto ſome beginning. To which agréeth the aunſwere that GOD made vnto the ſoules of the Martyrs which demaunded vengeaunce againſt the perſecutors of the Church: vnto whome the Lorde aunſwered, that they ſhoulde tarrye vntyll the number of Apoc. 6. c. 10 their bretheren were fulfilled.

Euſebius.

make me to vnderſtand that more clearely.

Theophilus.

Aſſone as we b gin to knowe God in A compariſon of the lyfe preſent and of that to come. Heb. 6. . 4 Io •• . 5. this worlde, and to beléeue in Ieſus Chriſt, we begin alſo to taſt the goodneſſe of the celeſtiall life and of the worlde to come: But we haue not yet perfect ioy. Yet neuertheleſſe ſithence that we haue once taſted that celeſtiall goodneſſe we grow from day to day, from knowledge to knowledge, from faith to faith, from good to be better, vntil we become vnto the age of a perfect man, to the fulneſſe of Ephe. 4 Chriſt, to the eternall felicitie and ended bleſſedneſſe. Now if alreadie in this vale of miſery, our ſoule, being charged with this terreſtiall body, ſhut vp and kept in the ſame, as in a darke priſon, altogether wrapped in miſeries, ſinnes and maledictions, receiueth ſuch conſolation and ioy, there is no doubt, but that after that it is deliuered from that priſon and capti •• tie and hath put of all earthly corruption, it may growe into all goodneſſe and perfection: or elſe in vaine hath Saint Paul ſaide: I deſ re to be loſed and to be with Chriſt, which thing is to e beſt of all. P il. . d. 2 And yet neuertheleſſe it hath not hir e i •• tie and perfect glorie, vntill the reſurrection of his glorious bodie, And that it be againe vnited wi h it, and ſe God face to face, and knowe him as we haue béene know •• of him: 1. Cor. 13. d. 12 1. Cor. 15 d 28 1. Iohn. 3. Coloſ. 3. , 3 then when he ſhal haue vanquiſhed all things, and ſhalbe all in all. For it is not yet appeared, what we ſhalbe: but our life is hid in Ieſus Chriſt. Euen as then, thoſe which doe nowe depart out of this life, haue not yet ſuch ioy, as they ſhall haue after that Ieſus Chriſt ſhall appeare in glorie, or to iudge all fleſh, when we ſhall all ariſe, ſo by the like reaſon we may eſtéeme and thinke, that the auncient fathers, which haue béene before the comm ng of Ieſus Chriſt, haue not had altogether ſuch ioy and felicitie, before is reſurrection as afterwarde. For if the Angels themſelues, which alwayes doe behold Augmentacion of the felicitie to the Angels the face of the heauenly father haue receiued increaſe of the ſcience and knowledge of God and of their felicitie by the comming of Ieſus Chriſt, and there ought to receiue it more ample in the reſurrection of the iuſt and righteous, we muſt not doubt, but that aſmuch ſhall happen vnto the bleſſed ſpirites and iuſt ſoules. Wherefore wée may eaſely knowe by the ſame: howe great and admirable the miſterie and ſecret of the redemption of mankinde is: and what is the excellencie of the Church of Ieſus Chriſt: ſith that the angels themſelues do receiu ſo great profite and increaſe in all goodneſſe.

Thomas.

By what place of the holy ſcripture ca ſt thou proue that which thou ſpeakeſt.

Theophilus.

They are ſufficiently expreſſed in the Epiſtles of the Apoſtles for ſaint Peter, ſpeaking of that matter, ſaith that of the Prophets & auncyent fathers, that it hath béene reuealed vnto them, y not to them ſelues, but vnto vs, they ſhould adminiſter the things; the which (ſaith he) nowe are declared vnto you by them 1. Pe er. 1. •• which haue declared the goſpell, by the holy ghoſt ſent from 〈◊〉 the which the Angels doe deſire to beholde. The Angel had not that deſire, but that they did féele a greate goodneſſe. But ſaint Paul ſheweth vnto vs the ſame yet more expreſſely and declareth vnto vs ſufficiently that ſith that the Angels are the miniſters of God appointed Pſal. 9 . c. 11 Hebr. 1, c. to the health of men, which cannot be in perfect and full bleſſedneſſe as we which are their compagnions, burgeſſes and citizens of the kingdome of heauen with them, neither are we alſo come therevnto. For euen as they do reioyce ouer the ſinner that repenteth and which Luc. 15. c. 10 ret urneth vnto God: alſo without all doubt, ſith that abo e all things they do procure our helth and ſaluation, it cannot be, but that they are verie angrye and ſorye when they ſée vs yet preſſed with ſinne and death and to ſtriue againſt them in great anguiſh. Foraſmuch then as their ••• y itie is ioyned with ours, it is certeine that theirs without ours cannot be perfect. For it is written expreſly that the ſaintes ſhal iudge the Angels and the worlde 1. Cor. 6, , 2. And the Apoſtle affirmeth, that nowe vnto the rulers and powers in heauen might be knowne by the congregation Eph . 3, b. 10 the manifold wiſedome of God according to the eternall purpoſe which he purpoſed in Chriſte Ieſu our Lorde. If the Angels then doe learne yet and profite in the knowledge of the goodneſſe of God, the which they doe daily ſée to be manifeſted by newe miracles towardes the Church, ſo in like manner it muſt be that they doe acknoweledge vs for their iudges, and princes in Chriſt, and bicauſe of Chriſte it is eaſie to knowe that there is yet a certeine thing in them whiche doth ſéeke his perfection of Ieſus Chriſte. Therefore it is written that thorowe him all Chriſt the reſtorer of all thinges Ephe, 1, b, 10. Collo, 1, , •• . thinges are repaired and reſtored, both in heauen and in earth. Wherein the ſcripture teacheth vs, that his comming was not onely healthful vnto men, but alſo vnto all creatures yea vnto the Angels themſelues, which had no ſinne. For euen as the f ll of man hath drawen after him the ruine of all other creatures and hath made them ſubiect vnto malediction with him? ſo euery creature ſigheth and groneth with him alſo, loo ••• g for their redemption Rom. . d. •• and deliuerance, the which is ioyned together with his. Nowe if the Angells cannot be perfectly conſ mated in all bleſſedneſſe without vs, which are their compaignio s, how ſhal our other bretheren do which are ioyned néerer vnto vs, & which do yet t ••• e for the redemption of their bodyes, and the conſummation of their ioy? the which they cannot haue without vs, and a great deale leſſe then the Angels.

Thomas.

We may alſo conclude by the contrarie, that the tor ents of the diuells Torments of the reprobate aggra ated. and reprobate doe increaſe: and that they ſhalbe greater and more grieuous, after the latter iudgement, then they are at this preſent.

Theophilus.

Saint Péeter doth giue vs moſt euident witneſſe, writing of the wicked and reprobate after this manner: howe will God ſpare them, if he haue not ſpared 2. Peter. 2. 2. 4. the Angels that haue ſinned: but hath caſt them down into hell, & deliuered them into chaynes of darkeneſſe, to be kept vnto iudgement? And by and by after he ſaith moreouer: the Lorde knoweth howe to deliuer the godly out of temptation, and howe to reſerue the vniuſt vnto the day of iudgement. We cannot deny, but that the diuels 2. Peter. 2. b. 9 and reprobate are alreadie in torment, and but that they are alreadie drowned in the bottome of hell, ſith that they are reiected of God, & that they are in his wrath indignation. But yet neuertheleſſe by the words of ſaint Peter we may eaſely vnderſtand that they doe attend and ari for yet, a certeine more grieuous iudgement, & gods anger more fearefull then they haue féeled. But for to make thée to vnderſtand more plainely that which I thinke, I will expounde it vnto thée by a ſimilitude and compariſon taken of the very words of S. Peter. When a malefactor hath cōmitted ſome certein great cryme, worthy of death The beginning of gods iudgmēt & grieuous puniſhment, there is no doubt, but y he féeleth his condempnation in his conſcience, aſſone as he hath cō mitted the euil déede. He hath his conſcience which is his Conſcience. C nſc •• ncia 〈◊〉 •• ſt •• . accuſor: for a witneſſe: for a iudge and for a hangeman: and it can be none otherwiſe. His conſcience yteth and I ••• nal. Sa y. 13. Cur tamen hos tu. Euaſiſſe pute quos d ••• conſ ••• ſacti. Meus reddit attonitos, & ſurdo verbere c dit. Occultum qu ti nt an mum tortore ſt gellū. Item. Exemplo qu d cunque malo committitur ipſi. Diſplicet autori prima haec eſt vl ••• , quod ſe Iudi •• nemo no •• ns abſoluitur. Item. Nocte d •• que ſuum geſtat n pectore teſtem. Spartano cut dam reſpond t Pythia ates Deut. 28. c. 15. accuſeth him. Afterwardes he commeth to be vanquiſhed of hys miſdéedes, by his owne proper witneſſe, which avayleth more then a thouſand witneſſes. And after it hath vanquiſhed hym, it condempneth him. And euen as it conſtrayneth them to witneſſe againſt themſelues, ſo it conſtrayneth them, to condempne themſelues, inſomuch that although all the Angels and all the men of the worlde, woulde cleare them and pronounce them to be righteous and iuſt, yet neuertheleſſe they cannot abſolue and cleare themſelues, nor auoide their owne iudgement. Now after y ſentēce giuen, it muſt be that it be put in execution, and that the malefactor be deliuered into the hands of the hangeman: the which he néede not to ſéeke farre, nor out of himſelfe. His conſcience with the reſt, doth yet that office: the which whippeth and tormenteth him ſo cruelly that he cannot haue reſt day nor night. If he ſée any talke together, he thinketh they talke of hym. If he ſée but a leafe of a trée to wagge he thinketh that they are ſeriants ſent for to take and carie him to priſon. If he thinke to ſléepe and take reſt, he dreameth that he is in the handes of the iudge which ſendeth him to the hangeman, and that they doe leade him to the gallowes. And in waking and ſléeping, he ceaſeth not to imagine and thinke of hangemen, ortures and Gybettes: Wherefore the Prophete hath not ſaide without a cauſe: That the wicked are like the raging Sea, that cannot reſt, whoſe water ometh with the myre and grauell.

Euen ſo the wicked haue no peace, ſaith the Lorde. Eſa. 57. d. 20. Geneſ. 4. b. 8, Mat. 27. . . Act. . c. 1 . Haue we not the example verie euident in Caine and in Iudas? From whence procéeded that violence of mans conſcience but from GOD? Which maketh hys enimyes to féele hys iudgement and his furour, in ſuch ſort that they themſelues cannot beare it? But are conſtrayned to condempne them ſelues and deſpaire: whiche is a certeine witneſſe that there is a iudgement and God vnto whome we muſt render accompte. The which The vvitneſſe of conſcience, that there is a GOD. we ought all to vnderſtande and knowe, although wée ſhould neuer heare ſpeaking of God, nor of his holy ſcriptures: and although we ſhoulde haue none other witnes but the ſame heré: the which God hath naturally printed into the heart of euery one, the which ought well to ſuffice vs. For as ſaint Iohn ſaith: if but hearts condemne 1. Iohn. 3. d. 20 vs, God is greater then our harts and knoweth all things. That is as much as if he had ſaide, if we ourſelues doe condemne vs, may not God well condemyne vs? Sith that we haue ſuch a feare and ſuch a horrour doeth not our heart admoniſh vs ſufficiently, that we haue a ſuperiour and gouernour which will not ſuffer ſuch thinges? Sith that there is not ſo great a Prince, not ſo great a Tyrant, which feeleth not that hell in his conſcience. Although there be not a man vppon the earth aboue him of whome he may be afraide. Doeſt thou nowe ſee, howe the hell The beginning of hell and of Paradiſe. of the wicked beginneth alreadie in him, here in 〈◊〉 worlde? The which our Lorde Ieſus Chriſt, woulde not haue vs to be ignorant off, ſaying: be that beléeueth in the Iohn. 3. 5. 6. ſonne of God, hath eternall life, and ſhall not taſt of death. For he is alreadie paſſed from death to life, but he that beléeueth not in the ſonne of God, he is alreadie iudged and condem ned. Doth he not ſhewe vs here with the finger howe the faithfull beginneth alreadie his paradiſe in this worlde, and the infidell and vnfaithfull hys hell.

Hillarius.

There is nothing more certeine then that which thou ſpeakeſt. And although we had not the witneſſes of the Scriptures, wee haue the witneſſe of nature, printed into the hearts of all, which hath conſtrained The Fu yes and ſhe diuells Iuuenal. Sat. 13 ug. Aene. 6 Cic. in ora . pro Piſo. the Poets to inuent and finde out that fayning of the furies, the which we may call ſhe diuelles. They do aſſigne their habitation in the helles, and ſay that they do torment the wicked and reprobate people, moſt horribly aſwell in this worlde, as in the other. By the which they vnderſtand none other thing, but the torments and aſſaltes of the euill conſcience, and that worme which dyeth not, The vvorme of conſcience Eſa. 66. g. 24 Mar. 9. g. 41 but gnaweth and deuoureth inceſſauntly.

Theophilus.

I doubt not. But let vs ſée how y el encreaſeth day by day. If the malefactor be alredy ſo much tormented before that the Iudge hath layde his handes vpon him, before that he be put in priſon, before that he hath ben on the racke, vanquiſhed, iudged and condem ned: Let vs thinke what torment he ought to haue, beeing in priſon, after that his proceſſe is made and concluded, looking & tarying for his ſentence & cruel death euery houre. In what anguiſh thinkeſt thou that he is in? Doeſt thou thinke that the horror that he hath of the looking for of the torments, which are prepared for him, are vnto him a great deale leſſe paine, then the torments and the death that hée looketh for?

Euſebius.

Truely I beléeue that there is no great difference, & that he dyeth ſo many times, as he liueth houres and minutes.

Theophilus.

Thou ſéeſt howe hée is already iudged, and yet hée is not. He is ſufficiently iudged and condemned as to himſelfe, ſith that he hath his conſcience, his confeſſion, his witneſſe and his proceſſe againſt himſelfe, and that he accompteth himſelfe alredy as dead. But neuertheleſſe, there is yet a more greater horror to be brought to iudgemēt, to heare the ſentence of his Iudge, to be condemned and executed openly, notwithſtanding yt he is already ſufficiently condemned being in the priſon, yet neuertheles the Iudge muſt pronounce openly his laſt ſentence: & that his iudgement be put in execution. As much may wée ſay The degrees of the Iudgement of God. of the Diuels and reprobate. Whileſt that the wicked doe liue héere in this worlde, they are lyke vnto malefactors, before that they are apprehended and taken. When God calleth them from this worlde, hée cyteth them before hym, or to appeare in iudgement: And they are as though they were caſt in priſon, lookinge for their latter ſentence, which ſhall bee giuen them in that great aye, in which all proceſſe, all cauſes and appeales ſhall ende. Beholde the cauſe wherefore Sainct Peter maketh 2. Pet. 2. 2. 4 mention of the bondes and chaines, with which GOD bindeth y diuels, which he hath reſerued to his iudgemēt, vſing humaine and materiall compariſons, for to declare vnto vs y heauenly & ſpirituall things. That is the cauſe wherefore the wicked ſpirites doe pray vnto Ieſus Chriſt, that hée will not ſende them into the déepe, complaininge Mat. 8. d. 29 Mar. 5. 2. 7 and lamentinge, bicauſe that they did féele by his comming their iudgement to approch nigh. And therefore they cried: O Ieſu thou ſonne of Dauid, art thou come hether, to torment vs before our time be come? We cannot doubt but that they were already tormented before, as the malefactor, which is in the •• ockes and chaines. But they haue dreadful feare when they do ſée their Iudge, and that they doe féele their laſt ſentence to drawe nigh.

Thomas.

It is to be meruailed at, how the one of the matters bringeth in the other, and giueth vnderſtandinge of it. Thou haſt deliuered me from one great doubt, & thou The eſtate of y ſoules after they be ſeperated frō the bodye haſt inſtructed me how I ought to aunſwere vnto a very hard queſtion, the which was propunded vnto me not long a goe: that is to ſay. If after that the ſoule is ſeperated from the body, whether y it goeth ſtraight way into Paradiſe, or into hell? For if it goeth into Paradiſe, or into hell, it ſeemeth that the iudgement is alredy done, & that we muſt tary no longer for it: or if we ought to looke and tary for an other, that y ſoules of the faithfull or vnfaythfull, haue not yet a place aſſigned vnto them, for to receyue felicitie or malediction. And therefore ſome doe ſaye, that they ſleepe vntill that great iourney. But thou haſt taken from mée the doubt, and haſt ſatiſfied mee thorowly.

Theophilus.

Wee muſt not bee abaſhed, althoughe thoſe that ſleepe doe dreame. But we ought rather to bee The ſleepers abaſhed, to ſee thoſe that be awake to dreame, and to beleeue and giue credite vnto the dreames of the ſleepers. For if it were ſo, the woorkes of God, agaynſt their nature, ſhould rather diminiſh then increaſe and th faythfull ought more to feare the corporall de 〈◊〉 then th vnfaythfull: For by the death, the vnfaythfull ſhould bée at reſt, and the faythfull ſhoulde bée depriued from that portion of the eternall felicitie, the which they haue alredy taſted off in this world, the which they ought to haue mor amply, after that they be delyuered from the priſon of this mortall body. I beléeue moſt aſſure ly, that if Sainct Paul had thought that hée muſt haue ſlepte ſo longe 〈◊〉 in bodye and ſoule, after his deceaſe, wythout hauing more ••• ple fruition of the heauenly goodneſſe and ioyes, then hée had in this worlde, that hée would neuer haue ſayde. What to chooſe I wotto not: I am conſtrayned of two Philip. 1, c. 22. thinges, I deſire to be looſed, and to bee wyth Chriſt which thing is beſt of all. Neuertheleſſe to abyde in the fleſhe is more néedfull for you. For in ſtéede to receyue more greater goodneſſe as hée deſired, hée was •• mpayred and made worſe: and that portion of the heauenlye goodneſſe that hée had already taſted off, lyuing in thys bodye, was better for him, then to bée altogether ſpoyled of it, and to ſléepe, beeing inſenſible as a ſtone, two or thrée thouſande yeares.

Hillarius.

Cycero was but a Panim and an heathen man, who was not very certeine nor aſſured of the eternall lyfe, nor perfectly reſolued of the immortalytie of the ſoules, but yet neuertheleſſe hee ſayth, that he would not lyue nyntie yeares, in ſuch ſorte, that after that he had depaſſed thrée ſcore yeares, hée ſhoulde ſléepe the reſidue of Tuſ . q. •• . nentie yeares: But whiche is more, hée addeth is that matter: the Hogges woulde not deſyre that, muche leſſe I By that accompte, hée eſteemeth the lyfe of Hogs better then that of man, all the whyle as hée abydeth a ſléepe: bycauſe that the ſleeper is an Image of death, The Image of death. the whiche alwayes repreſenteth hymſelfe in ſléeping.

Theophilus.

And therefore I dooe conclude, that notwithſtandinge that the Lorde by hys prouydence hath conſtituted and appointed that the bodyes doe ſléepe in the earth, as in their hedde, vntyll the reſurrectyon, that the number of their bretheren ſhalbe fulfilled, yet neuertheles the faithful nor the vnfaithfull, neuer are without their Paradiſe, & their hell: the which the more as they doe approch to their conſummation & ende, ſo much y more doe they encreaſe & augment, vntill ſuch time as they are come vntill the latter degrée of felicit e or infelicitie: bene iction or malediction.

Thomas,

After the ſame manner as thou procéedeſt, thou wilt leaue vs neither Lymbe nor Purgatory.

Theophilus.

As touching the Lymbe, if one doe take it for the boſome of Abraham, and the condition of the uncient fathers, which haue bene before the comming of Ieſus Chriſt. I will not much diſpute of the wordes, if we agrée in the thing. I am well contented to confeſſe, that the condition of the auncientes, as well thoſe that bée lining as thoſe that bée dead, compared vnto ours, in reſpect of the ſame, may be eſtéemed as a priſon, in price of a 2, Cor. 5. palaice: If we doe beholde the ſhadowes and figures, vnder whoſe darkneſſe they haue bene deteyned and kept, in reſpect of vs: and the ſeruitude and bondage of the Moſaicall lawe, vſinge ſuche compariſons as Sainct Paul: Gaſ 4. . 2 who compareth all this auncient people vnto young children, which are vnder their Tutor and Maſter: and vnto ſeruauntes which are vnder the feare of their Maſter, in compariſon of the Chriſtian people: the which hée compaſeth vnto the true natural & perfect children, which are already out of bōdage & gouernment, ſaying, that they haue not receiued y ſpirit of bondage & feare, but the ſpirit of adoption & of libertie, Vpon which we ought to note, y the Ro . , . •• Apoſtle denieth not ſimply, but that thoſe good auncient fathers haue had the ſame ſpirit of adoption and of libertie, as we haue receiued, & but y they were the ſonnes of God, & as perfect in their eſtate & condition, altogether as wée. But for to magnifie y vertue & glory of Ieſus Chriſt, meaneth to ſhew vnto vs y the goodneſſe y we haue receiued by him in his cōming, are •• ut any cōpariſon a great deale more excellēt: inſomuch y one may cal their light darknes, in regarde of ours: as he calleth that of Moſes, in compariſon 2. Cor. 3 of that of Ieſus Chriſt. Touching the Purgatory, I haue already ſufficiently declared what I thincke of it. And I do not ſée that the place that is alledged of y booke The inſufficiencie of the booke of the Machabees for to proue Purgatory. The example of Iudas of the Machabees, is ſufficient for to confirme it: although that the booke be very auncient and worthy of credite and to be beléeued. For although that Iudas Machabeus had done that which is there recited, it followeth not therfore that we are bound to doe the lyke. For the perticuler examples of ſome, are no generall rules for all: euen as I haue alredy touched, ſpeaking of y example of Zipphora. Afterwardes, that witneſſe is all alone, & is there recyted, more for to allowe the reſurrection, and for a publike witneſſe of repentaunce, then for to induce to praye for the dead, as promiſinge deliueraunce from Purgatory, vnto thoſe for whom it is offered.

Euſebius.

It is very true that the text ſayth expreſſely that Iudas Machabeus dooinge the ſame, had a holy and a deuoute thought of the reſurrection, but it is ſayde immediatly afterwardes: that the aduiſe and thought to praye for the dead, to the ende they may bée deliuered from their ſinnes, is holy and well done.

Theophilus.

Yet the ſame concludeth nothing, for the Purgatory. For according to your doctrine, the ſoules which are in Purgatorye, are alreadye deliuered from their ſinnes, and there reſteth no more but the paine. And therefore wée ſhould rather ſaye, Vt à poems ſaluantur, that is to ſaye, that they maye bée deliuered from paines, then: Vt à peccatis ſaluantur: that they may bée deliuered from ſinnes.

Euſebius.

Thou doeſt not conſider that ſinne conteineth two things: to wit, the faulte and the paine. I confeſſe, Payne & faulte that the true Chriſtians, thorow the faith in Ieſus Chriſt, are deliuered from the fault. But it followeth not therefore, but that they muſt yet beare the paine and ſatiſfie in Purgatory.

Theophilus.

Whereto then ſerueth vs Ieſus Chriſt. And whereto prof teth us the forgiueneſſe of our ſinnes.

Euſebius,

Ieſus Chriſt ſerueth vs to aboliſh the originall ſ •• ne and the fault of our ſinnes, that they make vs not culpable of eternall damnation, at the iudgement of God: and to mitigate and make leſſe the paine, the which we haue merited and deſerued.

Theophilus.

I can vnderſtande none other thing by Grace but halfe thy ſpeaking, but that God is as a prince, who at the requeſt of one of his very friendes, or of the friende of the Malefactor, ſheweth grace vnto the Malefactor, vpon ſuch condition, that if he haue deſerued to bée burned, or to bée put vppon the whéele, that hée ſhoulde haue onely but his head cut off: or if he had deſerued to haue had his head cut off, that hée ſhould haue but one of his eares cutte off, or that hée ſhould bée but onely whipped: or that he ſhould be raunſomed with ſome peece of money, the which he was bound to pay, yet beſides his grace and pardon. Doeſt thou eſtéeme and thinke ſuch grace and pardon to bée whole and perfect? or whether thou wilt iudge that the Prince had wholy pardoned the Malefactor?

Hillarius.

Not I.

Euſebius.

Is not that ſufficient inough, that Ieſus Chriſt hath deliuered vs from eternall dampnation, and that wée doe the reſt if wée will: or otherwiſe we ſhould be ſaued to good cheape.

Hillarius.

Art thou afraide of that Euſebius? or art thou angry and not well content with the goodneſſe that God would doe vnto vs?

Theophilus.

Beholde Euſebius, what Ieſus Chriſt thou makeſt for vs, and what credite thou giueſt him towards God his Father. If he cannot obteine for vs perfect grace, Halfe a ſauiour. and ful forgiueneſſe from paine & fault, he is not a perfect Sauiour. And God is not God. For your owne Doctors do witneſſe, & namely Raymond, who as oftentimes as God Raymond. pardoneth any thing vnto any one, he pardoneth him wholy. For otherwiſe God worketh not perfectly. Whervpon Vnde verſus Gratta magna Det, ventam non dimidiabit Aut nihil aut totum prop tiando d bi . they doe alledge the Verſes which I haue already once ſpoken off.

Hillarius.

By that accompt Ieſus Chriſt ſhould not haue ſo much power & credit as the Pope, who by his Buls and pardons, promiſeth ful forgiueneſſe of paine and fault. Graunt at the leaſt as much to the pardon of Ieſus The Pope more puiſſant then Chriſt. God compared vnto tyrants Chriſt, as vnto the Buls and pardons of the Pope.

Thomas.

Take héede Euſebius, thou make not God a Tyrant: who béeing not content to chaſtice & puniſh the revels and reprobate, cannot pardon thoſe which demaund grace and mercye, whatſoeuer requeſt one doe make vnto him, but that he kéepeth ſtill ſome roote of ve geaunce, without forgetting the iniurye that hath bene done vnto him, but that hée receiue ſatiſfaction and recompence, either on his body or his goods. The heauenly Father 1. Tim. 2. b. 6 béeing content with the raunſome of his ſonne Ieſus Chriſt, for whoſe loue he hath defaced & rent in péeces our bond, that our debtes and ſinnes doe come no more in remembraunce: or otherwiſe he ſhould not be true in hys promiſes, which he hath made vnto vs by his Prophetes and ſeruauntes.

Euſebius.

To what purpoſe is it then written. That it is a good thing to pray for the dead?

Theophilus.

Sith that the booke is not allowed nor receiued for autenticke in the true Church, that ſhoulde bée great folly to ſtay vpon it any longer, if I would not beare with thine infirmitie, & content thée more fully. I do leaue off to alledge a coniecture very like vnto that which I haue ſpoken off.

Thomas.

Put it foorth.

Theophilus.

I haue ſomtimes thought, that that propoſition, which is as a concluſion, taken out of the hiſtory going before, was not put by the author of the ſayd booke: but rather of ſome ſtudiou reader, which hath no ed the ſame in the margent, and that it hath bene added to the text, as it oftentimes happ neth in many good authors. And I am not alone in that opinion but many wiſe and learned men beſides mée. And if one doe examine the thing well, it is eaſy to ſée, y the continuation of the narration ſéemeth to be broken & marred, & that y ſentence hath ben put in, y which was a curtein annotation & conſequence, which ſome did make vpon y text: as it oftentimes happeneth in reading the bookes, & noting the places y which we would haue to ſerue vs.

Euſebius.

What reaſon haſt thou for to proue the ſame?

Theophilus.

Firſt this, for that I ſée oftentimes the examples and copyes of many bookes to varye: the which varietie oftentimes is happened for ſuch cauſe. Furthermore, I conſider that in that time there was no mention made of Purgatorye. Wherefore if wée muſt praye for the dead, it is moſt lykeſt, that the prayer ſhould haue bene ordeyned to that ende that they ſhoulde be deliuered from the Lymbes, if there had bene any, then from the paines Prayers for the reſurrection of Purgatory: or for the comming of Ieſus Chriſt and the reſurrection of the fleſh. But I doe not finde in all the holy Scripture, as well of the olde as of the newe Teſtament, that euer the Patriarches, Prophetes and Apoſtles, haue inſtituted or ordeyned, that one ſhoulde make anye ſpeciall or perticuler prayers, for the dead, neither for to drawe them from the Lymbes nor from Purgatorye, nor for the reſurrection of their bodyes. I will not denye, but that the holy Fathers haue greatly deſired the comming of Ieſus Chriſt, and but that according to their deſire they haue made earneſt prayers and requeſtes vnto God, euen as we doe praye dayly, that Gods kingdome may come, deſiringe generally, all that which apperteineth to the fulfilling of the ſame. But it followeth not therefore, that wée muſt eſpecially ordeine perticuler prayers in y church, for to demaūd perticulerly all things apperteining vnto y kingdome, & depending of the ſame. For in making ſuch prayers, wée regard not our ſelues nor our neighbour, but onely the glory of God: the which we deſire to be eralted & magnified, wtout conſideratiō of our perſons nor of others, but inſomuch as our health & ſaluation is ioyned together with y glory & raltation of his kingdome: But not in ſuch ſort y it is required or requiſite to vſe any other manner of praiers, thō thoſe of which we haue the expreſſe worde of God, and the examples of the true ſeruants of God. And if it ſhould haue bene otherwiſe, it is impoſſible that God would haue omitted it, without making expreſſe mentiō in his holy ſcriptures, as I haue alredy ſufficiently declared vn to thée by reaſons ſo euident, that none can gaine ſay them.

Euſebius.

Thou wilt then conclude for a full reſolution that in the worde of God is no mention made of Purgatory, nor of prayers for the deade? and that we haue no néede to pray for them?

Theophilus.

I will abide firme and ſtedfaſt in that ſentence, vntill ſuch time as I haue founde aucthoritie, or example in the holy ſcripture worthy to be followed: the which I am certeine, that one ſhal not finde: except peraduenture we woulde pray for the deade, euen as Daniel, and other good Prophets, and princes of Iuda haue made confeſſion and prayers for their ſinnes, and thoſe of their fathers and predeceſſors: not Hovv one ma pray for y dead Daniel, 9, 4. Reg, 22. d 2. Cor 34. f to that end that God ſhoulde pardon thoſe which were already deade. For they cannot put to more, nor take away any thing from them, ſith that they were alreadie before their Iudge: But they praied to that ende that God ſhould not impute vnto them the ſinnes of their fathers. Euſebius. Howe ſhoulde he impute them? ſith that he hath ſaid by his Prophet: The ſonne ſhall not beare the fathers Ezech, 18. e. 20 offences, but the ſoule that ſinneth ſhall dye.

Theophilus.

I doe agrée to thée, that if the father hath Hovv the child beareth y offc̄ce of his father. béene wicked and the ſonne do turne from his iniquitie not willing to followe it, that the iniquitie of the father cannot hurt hym, no more then his righteouſneſſe can profite him, if the father hath béene a good man & the ſonne wicked: But when the ſonne is a folower of his fathers iniquitie, ſith that by hys doings he alloweth it, he yeldeth himſelfe culpable not onely of his owne, but of hys fathers alſo, to the which he ſubſcriveth & augmenteth it. And of thoſe the Lord ſpeaketh when he ſaith: that he wil viſite the ſinne of the fathers vpon the children vnto the Exo. 20. a 5 thirde and fourth generation of them that hate him. Therfore, when the Lordo did threaten to puniſh hys people, and that he yeldeth the cauſes of his yre and wrath, he 4. Reg. 17 checketh them not onely for the ſinnes of the liuing, but heapeth together & rehearſeth alſo al thoſe of their aunceſtors and predeceſſors. And our Lord Ieſus Chriſt menaced & threatned the Scribes & Phariſes: that al the innocēt bloud which was ſhedde from Abell, ſhall be required at Mat 23. d 35 Luc, 11, g, 5 their hands. Wherefore we muſt not finde it ſtraunge, if the Prophetes and true ſeruants of God in their confeſſions & prayers, haue prayed for the ſinnes of their fathers and predeceſſors, that they ſhould not be called to accompt for to kindle and prouoke the wrath of God any more vppon them, the which thing in like manner hath Iudas Machabeus done, as the hiſtorye witneſſeth, in the which it is written, y they found vnder the cotes of thoſe that were ſlaiue, iewels that they had taken out of the temple & from 2. Mach 12. f. 4c the Idolles of the Iamnites, which thing is for idden the Iewes by the lawe. Then euery man ſaw, that this was the cauſe wherefore they were ſlaine. And ſo euery man gaue thanks vnto the Lorde for hys righteous iudgement which had opened the thing that was hyd. They fel downe alſo vnto their prayers, and beſought God, that the fault which was made, might be put out of remembrance. For we cannot denye, but that ſometime, for the ſinne of one man alone, God puniſheth all the people: As it appeareth Acham. Ioſua. 7. c. 18 in Acham. Which defiled his hands at the diſtruction of Iericho. But how oftentimes hath God puniſhed the cruelty of the fathers and predeceſſors, vpon their ſucceſſors and their children? as doe witneſſe as well the hiſtoryes as the Prophecies of y Amelechites, Moabites, Amonites, Madianites, Idumeans, Babylonians and of the Iſraelytes themſelues.

Euſebyus.

That which thou ſaieſt ſhould haue ſome ſhew, if that place did not make expreſſe mention of prayer, to the end that thoſe that were deade ſhoulde be deliuered from their ſinnes, as though they themſelues had béene yet bound and kept in them.

Theophilus.

Although that the Hovv thoſe that are dead are puniſhed in their ſucceſſours. dead, in aſmuch as they haue alreadie ended their courſe, haue no more place of repentance, nor of remedy, of whom, we haue certeine witnes in the word of God, yet neuertheles bicauſe of the conioſiction & felowſhip which they haue had with their families, or with their people, there is no doubt, but that their ſinnes, which do redound vpon others in part, bicauſe of them, and for which it muſt be that others do ſuffer, and that their ſinnes be vnto them aggrauated, cannot rightly be called theirs. For notwithſtāding y for their part, they haue receiued already puniſhment, neuertheles they kindred and familyes, as it happened vnto Achab, and to all his houſe. And we muſt not thinke that 4. Reg. 10. a. 1. puniſhment little, ſith that oftentymes, the fathers and parents do feare more the diſhonour and domage vnto their children and lynage, then their owne, as we do ſée ſometime by experience in thoſe which are brought to the gallowes, who although they cauſe thē to dye without ſhewing mercie, yet they thinke it a greate grace and fauour, if one graunt them, that they wil not let their bodyes to hange on the Gibet, for feare of diſhonour & infamy: the which yet neuertheles redoundeth more vnto their parēts & friends then vnto them. But they forget themſelues: or rather they think that they do yet foele & ſhal féele that diſhonour, infamye and publike ſhame, which ſhall continue to their infants and lynage. And although that they bée ſufficiently tormented with their euill, yet neuertheleſſe they féele a great eaſe and refreſhing if they vnderſtande that their children haue none euill: & their torment is aggrauated and increaſed, if they vnderſtande the contrarie. For that cauſe the Prophetes doe threaten not onely the wicked ſort of their owne ruine and diſtruction, but doe foreſhewe vnto them that of their children, and the euilles whiche ſhall happen vnto them, as it appeareth in the prophecy of Eſaie againſt Babylon, and others Eſa. 13. & 14. like. But for to ſtoppe all thoſe euills, and for to appaiſe the wrath of God kindled vpon vs, as well for our ſinnes as thoſe of our fathers, there is no better prayers nor offrings then to runne with true repentance & amendemēt of life, to implore his mercy. Behold the good prayers for y deade, to that ende that their ſinnes be not counted wiſh ours. Although that it be after whatſoeuer manner & 〈◊〉 wilt take that place, it ſufficeth móe at this preſent, to haue ſhewed vnto thée, that thou canſt not by the ſame proue thy purgatory, although that the booke ſhoulde bée of the holy ſcripture. And if thou wilt giue vnto it any credit, it may better ſerue thée, for to proue the Lymbe if there be one then the Purgatory. But ſith that Ieſus Chriſt is come and that you confeſſe that he hath drawen the athers from the Lymbes, the example of Iudas Machabeus can haue no more place among you: ſith that according To pray for the reſurrection of the body & the cōming of chriſt to your doctrine, the cauſe is ceaſed.

Euſebius,

Put caſe, that there were no more neither Lymbe nor Purgatory, can we not at the leaſt pray for the reſurrection of the deade? And for the ſeconde comming of Ieſus Chriſt, the which we doe looke for, as well as the auncyent fathers haue prayed for the firſt, and haue deſired and ſighed after it?

Theophilus.

We may well pray, as I haue alreadye ſaide, and aſke of God, all that which apperteyneth to the perfection of his kingdome: But to make prayers which are called prayers for the deade, and to pray in perticuler, Apoc. 6. c, 10 that God woulde raiſe vp againe the bodyes of thoſe which are deade, and that Ieſus Chriſt would ſoone come to iudgement, I haue no commaundement of God, nor example in all the holy ſcripture, but rather to the contrary. For when the Lorde aunſwered vnto the ſoules of the ſaints (which complayned of their perſecutors) that they ſhoulde arry vntill the number of their bretheren were fulfilled, he doth ſufficiently ſhewe by the ſame, that he hath prefered the tyme, the which cannot be plucked nor driuen backe. And ſith that the thing is altogether certeine and that we are alreadie all aſſured, what néede is it then to make perticuler praiers?

Euſebius.

We are aſmuch aſſured, that all thinges which ought to come, are paſſed by the counſell of God, and that he will giue vs Eſa. 40 c. 13 Eſa. 14. 26 all that which ſhalbe requiſite to our helth and ſaluation: that all the haires of our heade are numbred: and none ſhall fall to the grounde without his wyll: and his kingdome Mat. 10. d. 29 Luc. 12. . 7 ſhall ſhall come and ſhall be exalted aboue all creatures, but we may not leaue off therefore to pray continually to demaunde thoſe thinges of God.

Theophilus.

It is an other thing of vs, which are yet in our voiage & earthly peregrination, of thoſe which haue alreadie ended their courſe: vnto whome we can no more add too nor dimyniſh. For all the while that we are yet in the battaile, we may empaire or amende, and we haue alwayes néede to inuocate and call for the aide of God, both for vs and for our bretheren which are yet in combate & fight with vs. And which is more, God commaundeth vs ſo to do: not that he Mat. 6. d. 33 &, 7. b. 8 Luc. . b. 9 knoweth not better then we, what we do lacke, before we do aſke, and that hee is not willing to giue it vs, but hee doth it for to hold and kéepe vs in his feare, & to learne vs to ſanctifie his name & to exerciſe our faith towards him, and our loue towardes our neighboure, whileſt that wée may ſerue him in this mortall peregrination. But after that the voctorie is gotten or loſt, and that one is once come and arriued to the hauen and port, to which he muſt go, the cauſe and the occaſion is no more ſuch.

Euſebius.

Thou haſt ſaide before that the ſoules of the bleſſed and the verye Angels were not yet in their full glorie. Alſo wee cannot denye, but that the bodies of the faithfull that are deade are yet kept in death, ſith that they are in corruption, from the which they ſhal not be 1. Cor. 15. deliuered vntill their reſurrection, that death ſhalbe altogether aboliſhed. What euill is it then to pray for the deade, that their bodie may be deliuered from corruption, and that they may haue their perfect conſummation in bodie and ſoule.

Theophilus.

I haue alreadie ſatiſfied thée in that, if thou vnderſtandeſt what difference there is betwéene the lyuing and the deade. And although we had none other thing but that, the ſcripture maketh no expreſſe commaſidement, that ought to ſuffice thée, For if it were a queſtion To pray for the Sainctes vvhich are in Paradiſe. to worke ſubtilly and ſophiſtically in the worde of god, I ſhoulde well haue aſmuch reaſon to put forth, that wée muſt make prayers in perticuler, for the virgin Marye: for all the Prophets, Apoſtles, Saints, and Saintes of Paradiſe: Yea for the Angells, and for Ieſus Chriſt himſelfe.

Hilla ius.

It ſhoulde be requiſite then by that accompt, to make out of hand a newe Letany. In ſtéede where the Pr eſtes do ſing, ſaint Michael, pray for vs: A nevy Letany ſaint Mary mother of God, pray for vs: ſaint Peter, pray for vs: and ſo conſequently of others, we muſt ſay, O Lorde we pray and beſeech thée, for ſaint Michael, ſaint Gabriel, ſaint Mary, ſaint Peter, ſaint Paul, nd or all the ſaints and ſaintes of Paradiſe, that thou do put them in full oye, and perfect elicitie, and that th u aiſe vp their bodyes to eternall glorie.

Theophilus.

If our d e examine well the greateſt part of the prayers, which the prieſtes make for the deade, euen as they are written in their Meſſell and Breuiaries, one ſhalbe conſtrained o confeſſe that ſuch prayers cannot be made in the name of others then of thoſe whome they do inuocate and call vpon in their Letanyes, and that they be of like condition.

Hillarius.

I haue heard the Cordeliers mocke at Frier Fryer Chriſtopher. Maſſe of Req •• em for the Sainctes. Chriſtofer, which was one of their order and couent, b cauſe that he did ſing the Maſſe of Requiem, for the Saints and Saintes of Paradiſe. But if he had knowen howe to defende his cauſe, it had not béene without reaſ n. For he might haue verie wel alledged for his warrant, the Memento of the dead, and almoſt all the maſſe of Requiem, and other like prayers which ſeemed not to haue en made to any other end, then to pray for y ſaints which are in reſt. This ma ſter Dector who would find out for vs a newe manner to pray for the dead, vnder olour of the reſurrection & of the cōming of Ieſus Chriſt, it came well for him, for to mainte •• e & vphold his cauſe againſt the other Cordeliers, which mocked him.

Thomas.

Of what Couent was that Frier Chriſtofer:

Hillarius.

Of the Couent of Riue at Geneua.

Thomas,

Wherfore did he ſing ye Maſſe of Requiem, for the ſaintes?

Hillarius

Thou oughteſt to vnderſtand that he was a man ſo expert in Theology, and ſo wel exerciſed in bookes, that he knewe not very well how to reade in his owne Miſſell and Brauerie. Wherefore he could ſing but the Maſſe of Requiem, the which with great laboure he had learned by rote of heart, and it ſerued him as a plaiſter for all ſores, and diſeaſes.

Theophilus.

He did better then all ye others. For as there is but one baptiſme of Ieſus Chriſt One onely baptiſme of Ieſus Chriſt. and not the baptiſme of ſaint Peter, of S. Paul, nor of any other whatſoeuer it be, ſo there is but one ſupper of Ieſus Chriſt. There is not of ſaint Fraunces, ſaint Tybaud, ſaint Roch, and of other like innumerable. Nowe if the Maſſe be in ſtéede of the ſupper, there ought to bée but one: and we ought not to ſay the Maſſe of ſaint Paul, ſaint Iames and of other ſaints, no more then of the ſupper and of the Baptiſme.

Thomas.

And howe dyd he make his maſſe of Requiem agrée with the ſaints?

Hillarius.

In ſtéede where others doe name thoſe, in whoſe name they do ſing the Maſſe in their Mementos and Oremus, he dyd but chaunge the names, and name thoſe of the ſaints vnder the tytle of which he ought to ſing Maſſe, euen as he ſhould haue done for one that is dead. Thomas. I doe vnderſtand his practiſe nowe. He was not altogether without wit. And as much y Maſſe of Requiem ſerued him all alone, as all the other did to his compagnions.

Hillarius.

All one.

Thomas.

But who is that doctor of whō thou ſpeakeſt off?

Hillarius.

It is Monſiour the Carolus. doubtful, which is come out of the Charbo iere or Colehouſe of Parys, I would haue ſaid from Sorbonne. Thomas.

What is his name?

Hillarius.

I would name hym but y I feare I ſhal do him pleaſure.

Thomas.

Pleaſure? nay rather diſpleaſure?

Hillarius.

I doe not tel ſcorne to ſpeake, For thou oughteſt to vnderſtand, that the man, of whom I haue told thée is ſo much ambitious & couetous of name & fame, that it is al one to him, ſo that men ſpeake of him.

And I beléeue, that if hée coulde obteine that by any ſuch prooues, as that of Heroſtratus, who burned the 〈◊〉 of Diana the Epheſian, for to make himſelfe to Horoſtratus 〈◊〉 ſpoken off, he woulde doe no leſſe. And I woulde to God that he did no worſe, then he. For Heroſtratus burned a temple full of Idols, which cauſed al Aſia to commit Idolatrie. But this fellowe here, as the Gyants dyd, The vvar of the Gyants would make war againſt the heauen: fight againſt God: burne his temple, and reſiſt the holy Ghoſt, and the truth that he hath knowen.

Theophilus.

He hath very well declared it in all places where he hath beene: But god hath alwayes confounded him, with all his enterpriſes. God haue mercy on him, except he be of thoſe which ſinne vnto death, for whom ſaint Iohn hath writtē that we muſt Sinne vnto death. 1. Iohn, 5. d. 16 Iſmael. Geneſ. 16. c. 12, not pray for. I can giue him no fitter a name, then that of Iſmael, whoſe hand is againſt al men, and al mens hands againſt him.

Hillarius.

It is impoſſible to finde out a better compariſon. For he could neuer agrée with any man, among thoſe with whom he hath liued & dwelled, whether thy were Goſpellers or papiſtes: but hath troubled them all, and they haue béene conſtrayned to chaſe and driue him away from them, as a plague and troubler of the Church.

Theophilus.

Therefore the true church of Ieſus Chriſt hath béene conſtrayned to driue him out of hir houſe, Gal. 4. d. 30 euē as Sara did driue away Iſmael with his mother Agar, bicauſe that he mocked hir ſonne Iſaac, in ſuch manner Sara and Agar. Iſaac & Iſmael. Geneſ 21. b, 9 as this fellowe here alwayes mocked the true children of God. And therefore the Church could not acknoledge him for hir lawfull ſonne, but ſent him out after his mother Agar. For he is more fitter for the Sinagog, then for the Church.

Hillarius.

What thinkeſt thou, who hath induced and perſuaded him to propounde ſo many curious, vaine and vnprofitable queſtions, for to trouble that poore church of Lauſanne, of which he thought to haue beene made biſhop, The church of Lauſanne. and was alreadie by his imagination. Bicauſe that hée was already olde, and that he had a gray heard, I am abaſhed how that he could not thincke well y thoſe ſubtile Sorboniſts did not agrée with that poore Church, the which was yet tender and newly planted, and but a graſſe.

Theophilus.

I doe leaue the iudgement of the heart 3. Reg. 2. g 44 Pſal. 139. b. 23 Act. 1. d. 24 vnto God, who knoweth it: But as farre as I can iudge by his workes, and by his beginning, procéeding and ending, I cannot perceiue and vnderſtand but that hée dyd it for two cauſes chiefly. Firſte to pleaſe the Papiſtes, Apoſtles of the circumciſ on. Gal. 5. a Phil. 3. a euen as the Apoſtles of the circumciſion went about and endeuoured themſelues to pleaſe the Iewes, and to holde with them, for to auoide the croſſe and perſecution, and to haue their fauour, and for to make the true Apoſtles of Ieſus Chriſt more odious vnto all the world. The other is, for to ſhew himſelfe, and for to get the brute and report that he was a wiſe man, more expert and of more knowledge, then all other preachers, and that there was Vayne glory none that ſearched out and vnderſtood the holy Scripture ſo profoundly as hée. For he was angry that he dyd ſée others, which had put their life in daunger for the glory of God, and the edifiyng of the Church to be of ſome eſtimation towards the good. And therefore he would inuent a certein new faſhion, proper vnto himſelfe alone, to the end that he ſhould not ſéeme that he had brought no new thing, but that he had learned ſome thing of others. Therefore he was aſhamed to follow their way, and went about but to renue all things, for to let men to vnderſtande, that all that which others had made, was nothing worth, but that he was the great reformer of Churches, and yet neuertheleſſe be toke no care to reforme the wicked manners.

Hillarius.

I haue vnderſtanded that he called the good miniſters, ſkirmiſhers, who, for to aduance the goſpel, haue Skirmi shers. broken the firſt I e or giuē the firſt onſet, and which haue put their heades, there where he dareth not to put his litle finger.

Theophilus.

Alſo he himſelfe hath ſayd, in diſpiſing others, that he was not of thoſe ſmall ſkirmiſhers. But it was anſwered him to the contray, that he auailed then nothing in warre, & that he was not worthy to be taken for a good ſouldier: For a good champion muſt know to doo all thinges, and that he muſt bée found amongeſt the blowes and in the ſkirmiſhes and alaromes, not onely at the retraict, and to receiue wages. He diſpiſed the ſimplicitie of the holy Scripture, and calleth the Theology inferiour and baſe, and would forge and inuent for vs a metaphiſicall The metaphiſicall Theology. Theology.

Hillarius.

Alſo peraduenture he would by the ſame as wel extract the fifth eſſence of the holy Scriptures, as the Alcumiſts do of mettals. At the leaſt, I doubt not but that it will happen of his metaphiſicall Theology, as of the Alcumy, which hath a faire ſhew & to be of great value, but it conſumeth away into ſmoke. He ſpeaketh neuertheles againſt the Purgatory of Prieſtes. Wherefore I am abaſhed of that which I haue heard ſpoken, that at this preſent he endeuoureth himſelfe to ſet it vpp againe in that poore towne of Metz, y which he is gone to trouble, when he vnderſtood that Ieſus Chriſt would raigne there: But I greatly doubt, that the kitchin conſtraineth him to the ſame. For otherwiſe the har th woulde be colde. But hée may as well doe that, as to be angry & pleaſed againe, and ſo many times to chaunge and rechaunge his coate.

Theophilus.

We may well make him ſuch a monſter, as Euſe. de pra e an. •• . 14. ca. 2 Euſebius Ceſarienſis did make of the Philoſopher Archeſilaus, in his bookes of the preparation of the Goſpell, and Archeſilaus. to compare it to him, of whom he writeth in theſe words. They ſayd of him, that as touchinge his fore partes, hée was Plato, and as to the hinder partes, Pyrro, & the middle Diodorus. For he hath troubled and marred the eloquence of Plato, thorow the ſubtilties and ſophiſtries of the Philoſopher Diodorus, and by the ſubtile diſputations of Pyrrho: and now ſaying this, by and by that, he was eaſily rolled and lead now héere and now there, as a man not knowing any thing, and hauinge no reſt: And yet neuertheleſſe he ſéemeth thorow the ſhadow of eloquence, that he knoweth much: & he was neuer in that minde, y he would ſay twice one thing, and that hee woulde abide firme and ſteedfaſt in one opinion. For hée eſtéemed not a man to be ingenious and wittie, which preſerued & continued in one matter and doctrine. And therefore he was called a cauiller, ſophiſter and troubler, which knew nothing, and would not y others ſhould perceiue any thing. He troubled euery one thorow his ſophiſtries, & was as the ſerpent called Hydra. Hydra, which hath ſeauen heads: But he cutteth them off with his owne ſwoord, ſpeaking agaynſt & gainſaying his owne Doctrine, denying that whiche hee hath affirmed, and deſtroyinge that whiche hee before hath buylded.

Hillarius.

It is impoſſible to painte him out better. For Gerion. he is as a Gerion with thrée bodies. He is a Papiſt, an Euangeliſt and a Lutherian. He is a Sophiſter and a Sorboniſt, and yet he would be accompted for a faithfull and a Chriſtian, and holdeth himſelfe neither to the one nor yet to the other. Hydra had neuer ſo many heads, as hée hath of opinions contrary the one to the other, and hée néeded none other Hercules for to cut them off, then himſelfe. For the truth which GOD hath compelled him to ſpeake, as vnto the wicked ſpiri es, is a Hercules ſufficient Hercules. inough for to vanquiſh the falſe doctrine, that he now mainteineth.

Theophilus.

By the ſame thou maiſt know the ſtudye Mat. 8. b. 14. Ma . 1. c. 29 of Sathan, and how many wayes he tranſfigureth himſelfe into an Angell of light: and what is the nature of the 2. Cor. 11. d. 1 falſe Prophets. God by all his Prophets & Apoſtles hath commended to vs the faith in him, and the loue towardes A ſigne for to iudge the falſe and true Prophets. the liuing, without making any mention y we ſhuld haue care of the dead. The Diuell to the contrarye, by his falſe Prophetes and Apoſtles, endeuoureth himſelfe with all his power, to drawe vs from the fayth, vnto vayne Ceremonies, and from the care that wée ought to haue of the liuinge and of the poore members of IESUS CHRIST, which with vs doe ſuffer want and indigence, for to make vs ſtaye after the deade. They bring them meat and drinke, and ſuffer the poore Chriſtian bretheren which are round about them to dye for hunger. This miſerable Doctor, perceiuing that he could not A nevv tranſfiguration of Sathan. ther where he was, maintein the Purgatory of y Prieſts, and their broiling of ſoules, be would ſet vp a new Purgatory for the body. But when he perceiued that he could not bring it about, he is retourned to cary a coale to the ſame Purgatory for the body. of the Prieſts, for to heate it againe. Wherein he manifeſtly declareth, what faith and conſcience he hath, & how much one ought to truſt to his doctrine.

Hillarius.

Mée thinketh, that he ſhould haue no leſſe appearance, to build a Purgatory for the body, then the Prieſtes to haue builded one for the ſoules. For if there be any reaſon, wherefore the ſoules ought to ſuffer for their ſinnes, after that man is dead, me thinketh that the body ought not to bée quit and frée, but that he hath more merited it, bicauſe that he was the occaſion thorow his fleſh, and the inſtrument for to make the ſoulé to ſinne. Wherefore if you thincke Euſebius, that God ſhould be vniuſt, as thou haſt alledged, if he doe not puniſh the ſoules of the ſinners in Purgatory, he ſhould be no leſſe, if he doe not puniſh the bodyes in lyke manner, which haue ben alwayes companions & inſtruments to the ſoules, in all the ſinnes that they haue committed. And therefore God wil not onely puniſh the ſoules of the reprobate in hel fire, but the bodies alſo: euen as be will glorifie the elect in body and ſoule, in the reſurrection of the Iuſtes.

Theophilus.

Alſo this good Doctor would giue vs to vnderſtand, ſithence y he hath entred into that dreaming, that all the prayers which the Church made in the name of the dead, were for the bodyes, and for their reſurrection, and not for the ſoules: and condempneth the Prieſtes and their Purgatory, and be made no doubt to ſaye, that we muſt pray for the Saintes: for Saint Peter, S. Paul, and the others, in ſuch ſence as he vnderſtandeth, euen as it hath bene touched.

Thomas,

I doe vnderſtand well of whom you ſpeake. I remember, that at the diſputation which was holden at Lauſanne, he ſpake cléerely, not onely againſt the Purgatory of Prieſtes, but alſo againſt the tranſubſtanciacion and corporall preſence of Ieſus Chriſt in the hoaſt.

Theophilus.

It is true, but in the meane time, thou takeſt no héede of the ſubtiltie of Sathan, and by what means he would be ſerued of that Sorboniſt doctors. Bicauſe y Sathan did ſée thoſe errors to be already too much vncouered and opened, & that hée had no more hope to vphold them, chiefely in thoſe Churches héere aboutes, hée hath choſen this inſtrument, for to ſet foorth that opinion, the which could not ſerue to any edification, but for to trouble the Church, chiefly in this time now, that the opinions of men are ſo diuerſe, For how goodly a reaſon ſoeuer he can alledge, notwithſtanding that he condempneth openly the Purgatory of the Prieſtes, and their ſuffrages for the dead, yet neuertheleſſe, ſith that hée putteth foorth that propoſition: we muſt praye for the dead: It were impoſſible, but that in euery pointe, it ſhould he euill ſpoken A troubleſome doctrine. off and offenſiue. For the Idolaters and ſuperſtitions, which were yet in their olde errour, touching that matter, doe drawe that propoſition to their aduauntage, to the confirmation of their Purgatory, and care not for all his other reaſons and ſophiſtries, the which the moſt part cannot vnderſtand, others wil not. It is mough for them that they can ſay: Monſieur the Doctor hath preached, that we muſt pray for the dead. They doe arme themſelues with that propoſition, againſt the truth, as with a buckler, and doe condemne more boldly the holeſome doctrine. The other poore ſimple people, which haue already ſome knowledwe of the abuſes, were not alſo without being troubled, fearing to haue ben euill taught. For all could not eaſily comprehend thoſe ſophiſticall ſubtilties, but doe abide in perplexitie. Notwithſtanding that that dreame which hée did put foorth, was not newe: It hath alreadye at an other time bene put foorth by others, the which yet neuertheleſſe they haue not followed. Thoſe which were beſt inſtructed and moſt firme in the doctrine of the Goſpell, although that they had their ſpirites ſharpe inough for to comprehend that which they ſayd, yet they were not out of daunger. For ſith that this propoſition abideth and continneth: we muſt pray for the dead: And this héere, the Church hath alwayes duely p ayde for them that they ſhould be deliuered from death: it was much to be feared, that by ſucceſſion of time, but that they ſhould fall againe to the firſt errour, and that the Diuell which was driuen away, would retourne againe with ſeauen other wicked ſpirites, worſe then the firſt. For after that the vnderſtanding of man hath bene corrupted thorowe ſome falſe opinion, he is eaſy to fall agayne, and to withdrawe from Mat. 12. d. 44. his purpoſe all that whiche approcheth any thinge at all.

Hillarius.

I doubt not, but that the ſame was the marke, to which Sathan pretented: the which he hath yet better declared, when be induced and perſwaded that poore man to returne againe, as the dogge, to eate that which he had vomited, and to bay and arke agaynſt the miniſters of the truth, enforcing and endeuouring himſelfe to reedif e the errours and hereſies, which he had before condempned and deſtroyed.

Theophilus.

It is a great deale better that he declared himſelfe what he was, then to dwell in the Church of Ieſus Chriſt for to trouble it, and to ende that that he hath taken in hande. For in ſtéede, whereas before they did but ſing Maſſe for the dead, whome they preſumed to bée deteined and kepte in Purgatorye, they muſt alſo ſing Maſſe and offer for the Saintes which are in Paradiſe, according to his Theologye. For it ſhoulde haue bene as eaſie to giue coulour vnto ſuch Maſſes, as the ſcholaſticall Doctors doe giue vnto thoſe which they doe ſinge in the name of younge children, which are dead in their innocencie, immediately after their baptiſme. Maſſes for the young children

Thomas.

What néede haue they? For I beléeue that they will not denye, but that they accompte them for ſaued.

Theophilus.

They confeſſe that they are in Paradiſe? Tho. diſt. 12. li. 4. deffc. enche. Reiſerſp. de. mor. v rt. Sermo dom. . aduent. and that they haue no néede to doe it for their ſaluation: But they affirme that it is good yet neuerthelſſe to ſinge Maſſe for them, for to ſignifie & witneſſe y they are of the Church, & members of his miſticall body. And ſo by that meanes, the Prieſtes cannot fayle to get money of euery ſide, both of the olde and younge: or vnder the title of Purgatory, or of the communion of the Church, or of the reſurrection of the body, or of the conſummation of the eternall ſelicitie. In ſo dooing, they muſt yet at the ende come to pray for Ieſus Chriſt, and to ſinge maſſes for him, as for his members, vntill ſuch time as his kingdome hée fully conſummated and ended, and that he hath put all his enimies vnder his footſtoole.

Thomas,

Now I haue heard al your matters and wel conſidered of them, I knowe that we haue bene meruailouſly abuſed, Wherefore from hencefoorth I remit and forgiue the Prieſtes, I will ſtaye my ſelfe but onelye to the pure word of GOD. As touchinge my voyage, I am come backe agayne. I haue ſéene that which I deſired to knowe. I thincke that Euſebius is as much preſſed and ouercome as I, and that hee hath no more greater harneys nor weapons for to defend his Purgatorye nor his Lymbes, Euſebius. It is moſt certeine that I haue my ſpirit much troubled with ſo many matters, and not without cauſe. But neuertheleſſe I haue not yet all diſployed and ſhewed foorth my argumentes & reaſons. You haue nowe robbed me of the place whiche I haue propounded vnto you of the booke of the Machabees, vnder the tytle that it was Apocripha: But thoſe that I will propound vnto you now, ſhalbée taken out of bookes ſo Autentickes and Canonicall, that you can by no meanes reiect them. And if you can ſhewe by euydent reaſons, that I dooe not alledge them to the purpoſe, and that they do ſerue mée nothing at all for to proue my intention, I will confeſſe my ſelfe vanquiſhed, and wyll giue you my hand for to be of your ſide.

Hillarius,

What pretendeſt thou to mainteine by them, either the Lymbe of the young children, and the baptiſme of women: or the Lymbe of the auncient fathers: or the Purgatory? For Theophilus hath ouerthrowne this day all that.

Euſebius.

Thou ſhalt vnderſtande it, when thou ſhalt heare it. But at this time we haue ſufficiently inough diſcuſſed of the matters at one time, and there r maineth yet inough for a good while. Yet neuertheleſſe I doe hope that we ſhall ſée the ende.

Thomas.

I deſire the ſame very much, and that wée may agrée as ſoone as ſhalbe poſſible, that we may all abide and continue of one good reſolution.

Theophilus.

God giue vs his grace, as I hope hée will.

THE SVMME OF THE SIXT and laſt Dialogue.

IN this latter dialogue Euſebius putteth foorth the places of the holy ſcripture, the which they alleadge commonly for the defence and confirmation of purgatory: to the which Theophilus anſwereth, and expoundeth them after the true ſence of the ſcripture: and confuteth the falſe interpretacions of the Sophiſters: and declareth many good pointes and places of the holy ſcripture. It ſhalbe alſo intreated of the power of the keyes: and howe the Pope and his would ſtretch them euen to the other worlde. It ſhalbe in like manner ſpoken, of the Popes power and deite: of ubile, and of the vertue of the bulle, pardons and indulgences. Afterwards ſhalbe touched the opinion of them which thinke that there ſhalbe preaching in the other worlde: And a manifeſtation of Ieſus Chriſt to ſaluation, for ſuch as haue not knowen him in this world. VVherevpon ſhalbe entreated the place of Saint Peter, touching the preaching of Ieſus Chriſt vnto the deade, & to the ſpirits that were deteined in priſon: & for the end & concluſion of all thoſe matters, the funeralles of purgatory ſhall be celebrated, and he ſhalbe buried. For that cauſe this dialogue is called, the Requieſcant in pace of purgatory. For he is deade and buryed.

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THE SIXT DIALOGVE WHICH is called the Requieſcant in pace, of Purgatorye. THOMAS,

Although friend Euſebius, thou haſt reſiſted Theophilus and Hillarie as much as thou canſt, and that thou haſt fought valyantlye, yet neuertheleſſe thou couldeſt not ſo vertuouſlye defende thy ſelfe, but that the forewarde, the winges and the hornes of thy armye, and almoſt all the whole hoaſt is diſcomfyted and ouercome: there reſteth no more nowe but the arrierewarde. If it defende it ſelfe no valyentlyer, and that it bée no better armed then the others, thou ſhalt carry no good newes to the Pope of that combatte, and thou ſhalt giue him no greate occaſion to receiue thee among his Capitaines, and to reward thée ritchly.

Euſebius.

I doe not fight for the Pope, but for the trueth. It is to me all one who dee gaine or winne the battaile, ſo that the victorie abideth with the trueth, and that Ieſus doe raigne in his Church.

Theophilus.

I am very glade for the good affection that GOD hath giuen vnto thée, and that thou art not like vnto a heape and company of ambicious and glorious men, who what ſo euer euill cauſe that they haue, will neuer confeſſe them ſelues ouercome and vanquiſhed, but eſtéeme their glory more dearer then the ſame of Ieſus Chriſt.

Euſebius.

It is verye true that at the beginning I was much offended with your wordes. But when I conſidered that which I haue hearde of you, I knewe not well to which ſide to turne. You haue alreadye very much ouercome and fayled me, neuertheleſſe I haue yet many places of the holye Scriptures, which holde me in ſuſpens, and leaue me in a greate ſcruple and doubt in my conſcience, vntill ſuch time as thou haſt ſhewed me by liuely & euident reaſons, that I muſt vnderſtande them otherwiſe then they haue béene expounded vnto me: or elſe you ſhall be conſtrayned to chaunge your matter, and to denye and vnſay all that you haue ſaide euen vntill this preſent time.

Hillarius.

Propounde them all by order, and Theophilus wil addres & guyde thée to the true vnderſtanding.

Euſebius.

For to kéepe the better order, I wyll beginne by the olde teſtament, and afterwards will follow The diſpoſition of this dialogue the newe, after the order by which the bookes of the ſame are diſpoſed and ſet, alledging out of euery one of them the pointes which may ſerue to my matters. I will put forth vnto thée that which Thoby commaunded his Thob. 4. d 18. ſonne, ſaying: Set thy breade and wine vppon the buriall of the righteous. But thou wilt aunſwere vnto me, that that booke is Apocripha, or onely Eccleſiaſticall, and not The booke of Thobie. Canonicall, as thou haſt already done of the ſame of the Machabees.

Theophilus.

Truely I may aunſwere thée ſo. But although it were Canonicall, where too would it ſerue for thy matter?

Euſebius.

Very well, following the interpretacion of Eccius, which expoundeth it of the Almoſes for to refreſh The expoſition of the place of Thoby. the poore, that they ſhould pray vnto God for the ſaluation of the deade.

Theophilus.

He that woulde followe the expoſicions of Eccius, there is not a place in the Bible which he hath not corrupted and marred, for to make it ſerue to the popiſh tyranny. In the booke of Thoby, & in that place there, there is no mention made of praying for the dead. And although thoſe words preceded thervnto, he ought rather to haue ſaide: Set thy breade vppon the buriall of the ſinner, then vpon that of the righteous. For the ſinners ſhal haue more neede of ſuch prayers, then the righteous. But he ſaith altogether contrarye. For hée addeth: eate and drinke not with the ſinners and wicked: The which is better expreſſed by the Greeke, ſaying: Set thy breade vpon the buriall of the righteous, and giue it not vnto ſinners. Wherefore it is moſt likeſt to be true, ſith that before he hath ſpoken of Almoſes, that he recommendeth by thoſe wordes, chiefely the righteous and faithfull, euen as ſaint Paul, aboue all other recommendeth thoſe of the houſhold of faith. Nowe there are many manners and wayes to beſtowe ones breade and wyne vppon the burialles of the righteous: The firſt is 〈…〉 ſtovve ones bread & vvine vpon the burtial of the righteous Thob ••••• in burying them honeſtly, as Thoby did, without ſparing that which was there vnto néedefull and requiſite. For the Hebrewes by the breade, wyne and water, doe vnderſtande all the things neceſſarie vnto man, and vnto mans life. The other is, when we doe helpe our bretheren, & ſuccour ſo their neceſſities: that they dye not for want of vittailes, nor goe downe to the graue without being buried. If we doe otherwiſe, we kill them, when we f •• de them not, and that they do dye through our default. The thirde is when we comfort thorowe Almoſes the children and friendes of the deade. Then we ſhed foorth our breade and wine vpon their burialles, behold the holy water that they deſire. And it is a great deale better to doe after that ſort, then to playe the glutton with the gluttons, drunkerds and wicked. But the manner of ſpech is ſomewhat obſcure, bicauſe that the booke, notwithſtanding that it was written in Greeke, yet neuertheleſſe it keepeth the phraſes and manners of the Hebrew ſpeach.

Hillarius.

He that will then followe the counſell of Thoby, muſt no more banket and feaſt the Prieſtes, ſith The place of Thoby 〈◊〉 to the 〈◊〉 . that he forbiddeth to giue his breade and wine vnto ſinners and the wicked. For there is not a people vpon the earth, of a more execrable life, nor which do more abuſe the goods which GOD hath giuen vnto man: Amongſt whom one may well accompt and number Eccius for one of the principalleſt Captaines of God Bacchus. For he was very angry, that day he was not dronken in. Wherfore it is no meruaile, if he woulde mainteine the ſpitt and the fryingpan. But yet no ueil 〈◊〉 although he and all ſuch as he is would preſſe and take the words of Thoby by the rigour without admitting any expoſition confirmable and agreable to the worde of God, it ſhould haue had more colour for to allow the auncient cuſtome which the Panyms had to cary breade vpon the burialls and to An other p ace taken out of the pſalme, 66 powre thereon wine, euen as already hath béene ſpoken, then for to proue the bankettes of the prieſtes, and the prayers for the deade. Neuertheleſſe we are well aſſured that neither Thoby nor any other holy man but haue had regard not to allow ſuch ſuperſticious.

Euſebius.

Let vs leaue of Eccius and the priſtes, and anſwere me vnto that which is written in the booke of the Pſalmes: We haue paſſed thorowe the fire and water, and thou haſt drawen vs out, and ſet vs in ioye and comforte. Howe vnderſtandeſt thou that place? The which many Theologians doe expounde it of the fire of purgatory, by the which the ſoules muſt firſt paſſe, for to be purged, before that they can enter into the celeſtiall reſt. To which agréeth very well that which ſaint Paul The place of the 1. Cor, 3. c. 11 writeth to the Corinthians, ſaying: For other foundation can no man ay, then that which is layde, which is Ieſus Chriſt. And if any man bylde vpon this foundacion, gold, ſiluer, precious ſtones, tymber, hay or ſtubble, euery mans worke ſhall appeare. For the day ſhall declare it, and it ſhalbe ſhewed in fire: And the fire ſhall trie euery mans worke what it is. If any mans worke that he hath buylt vpon, byde, he ſhall receiue a rewarde. If any mannes worke burne, be ſhall ſuffer loſſe, but he ſhalbe ſafe himſelfe: neuertheleſſe yet as it were thorowe fire. What fire can we here vnderſtand then that of purgatory, which purgeth? wherefore one is ſauid by the ſame. The which we cannot vnderſtand of y ſame of hel, from which none can be deliuered, nor conſequently ſaued. What aunſwereſt thou to that? I do here breake a lyttle the order that I had thought to haue kept, & do leape from the Pſalter vnto the Epiſtles of ſaint Paul: But it is b cauſe that the matters are like, and that the one of the pointes may the better be diſcuſſed and opened with the other. For we cannot vnderſtand that fire, thorowe which one goeth and paſſeth, but of the ſame of which ſaint Paule ſpeaketh by the which one is ſaued. For none can paſſe from the ſame of hell, but it kéepeth and holdeth faſt all that that commeth to it. Declare and expound vnto me theſe two places, and afterwards I will go ſtraite way to the newe Teſtament, and will kéepe order as I haue ſaide.

Theophilus.

As touching the place of the Pſalmes, Aunſwere to ye place of the Pſalmes. it is moſte cleare, that in that Pſalme the Prophete ſpeaketh of the tyrannye and oppreſſion, and of the greate afflictions and aduerſities which the people of god haue ſuffered, from which God hath deliuered them. And the better to comprehend all in a ſumme, the great euills and daungers, in which that people hath beene drowned and plunged, he ſpeaketh it in the perſon of him: wée are come vnto the fire and water, and thou haſt ledde vs by them. He vſeth commonly the compariſon of the fire Eſai . 4. 4. ere 49. 27 1. Pet. 1. b 7. and water, bicauſe that there is nothing which ſooner will kill & diſpatch a man, then the fire and water, when they haue once power ouer him. And therefore they are many times taken in the holy ſcriptures, for the temptations perſecutions, paſſions, daungers deathes, and iudgement of God, by the which all is examined, proued and tryed as by the fire and water, and there is none that can eſcape, if the Lorde do not delyuer and drawe him from it, as it is here ſpoken afterwardes. As touching 1. Cor. 3 ••• . The expoſition of the place of the Corrithians the place of Saint Paul, he pretended an other thing, then to the fire of Purgatory, as it is eaſie to know by his owne wordes. Wherefore I doe make thée thine owne iudge of the cauſe, & I demaunde of thee firſt, whether thou art of an opinion, that it behoueth that all the holy Prophets, Apoſtles and Martyrs, do paſſe by or thorowe that fire of Purgatory?

Euſebius.

Noe.

Hillarius,

Thoſe which alledge that place for to proue the Purgatorie, dare not to confeſſe that. For they magnifie and extoll ſo much the merittes of Saints, that they haue made a treaſure in their Church, of thoſe which they haue of The treſure of the Church. ſuperaboundance, the which they do vaunt themſelues to diſtribute vnto others.

Theophilus.

Neuertheles the Apoſtle ſpeaketh in that place of the principalleſt members of ye church, to wit, of the Prophets, Apoſtles, Euangeliſts, Doctors, Preachers, and conſequently of all thoſe which do edifie by their doctrine, whom he calleth maſons and buylders. He ſaith that euery ones worke ſhall paſſe by the fire, and that the workeman alſo ſhalbe examined by the ſame. Wherfore, either you ſhall be conſtrayned to confeſſe that that fire cannot be vnderſtanded of the ſame of Purgatorye, or that there is neither Saint nor Saintes but is compelled to paſſe by the ſame, for to proue & trye his worke, ſith that he excepteth none. But ſaith plainly, that euery mans ſhalbe tryed by the fire: The which thing ſaint Auguſtine was not ignorant off, but vſeth the ſame reaſon, De ciui. dei. li. 21. ca. 26. Trac. defid. & oper. c. 16. Ench. ca. 68 againſt thoſe which would mainteine by thoſe words of the Apoſtle, that thoſe which beléeue in Ieſus Chriſt, ſhalbe all ſaued, howe wicked a lyfe ſo euer they haue lyued, and buylded vppon the foundation, which is Ieſus Chriſt, prouided that they had not altogether abandoned and forſaken the foundation. He taketh not that fire, for that of Purgatory: But for the tribulations, aduerſities, and perſecutions of this worlde. Although that ſome wil ſay, that the like is done yet in the other world, he ſaith that he will not repunge their opinion: the which as he ſaith may be true. But yet neuertheleſſe he dareth not to affirme it, but expoundeth that fire of the tribulations of Theophila. in 1. Cor. 3. this worlde here. Theophilacte, who almoſt in all his commentaries hath followed Chriſoſtome, notwithſtanding that he is not of the moſt auncientes, and that hée hath written ſithence that the church hath beene verye much marred and ſpoyled, and that already that fire of Purgatorye was ve ye muche kindeled, yet neuertheleſſe hée made here no mention at all, not of one onely ſillable: But taketh that fire for the ſame of Hell: ſaying, that the ſinner ſhalbe ſaued: that is to ſay, that he ſhalbe reſerued whole and entire, for to burne in the fire and to be puniſhed perpetually. But for to come to the true and more cleare vnderſtanding of thoſe wordes, Saint Paul meaneth here brieſely, that all buylding, all doctrine, and workes buylded and inuented without the word of God, ſhall turne into ſmoke and vaniſh away altogether, without being able to abide and continue firme, notwithſtanding that all that ſhalbe builded vppon the true foundation, which is Chriſt, who cannot beare vppe any buylding, if it be not pure gold, ſiluer, pearles and precious ſtones, taken from his worde, which is more pure Pſal. 19 c. 11 then the gold and ſiluer fined and tryed ſeuen times. And therefore the Apoſtle vſeth here a metaphore, tranſlation, and compariſon. For euen as he compareth the pure doctrine A compariſon of the d ••• ne and hum •• ne doctrine. of y goſpel to the gold, ſiluer & precious ſtones, which cannot be conſumed by the fire, but are by the ſame tryed and doe appeare more faire and cleane: So he compareth the doctrines dreamed and inuen ed by the braine of man, vnto wood, hay, chaffe and ſtubble, and by good right. For euen as thoſe thinges cannot abide the fire but are conſumed and periſhed aſſone as they féele it, ſo in lyke manner ſhall mens doctrines periſh, and cannot abyde and continewe firme, when they ſhall come to the touchſtone. It happeneth vnto vs oftentimes that we delyte and pleaſe our ſelues in our owne workes, and wée thinke that we haue made a faire and a goodly péece of worke. But wée muſt bring it to the touchſtone: the which ſhall not be after our owne iudgement, but according to the ſame of GOD, who is the iudge of vs and of our workes. Therefore ſaith he, that the day ſhall declare it, and that the fire ſhall trye what euerye mannes worke ſhall bée. He calleth the day of the Lord, The day of the Lord. all tymes, in which hée manifeſ eth his preſence vnto men, by any manner of wayes: the which he doth chiefely by the manifeſtation of his truth, and reuelation of his Goſpell. By the fire, although that in the Scripture it be many The fire. times taken, for the temptacions and tribulations, yet neuertheles it agréeth beſt héere to the ſence & meaning of the Apoſtle, to take the fire for the towchſtone which procéedeth of the holy Ghoſt, which is the true fire, which conſumeth all doctrine inuented by men, the which cannot abyde the ſpirituall towchſtone but vaniſheth away aſſoone as one proueth the ſpirites, whether they be of God or not. Aſmuch happeneth of all the workes, procéeding of ſuch doctrine, the which cannot beare the iudgement of God. But to the contrary, it happeneth to the Pet, , b. 7 truth as to the faith, the which euen as the golde, becommeth more fairer, and ſheweth it ſelfe more pure, when it is tryed and examined in that furnayce, and approcheth néerer of that ſpirituall iudgement. And therefore when the word of the Lorde is manifeſt by the vertue of the holy Ghoſt, then all things are reuealed. We ſhall know what worke we haue made: whether it hath any ault in it or not: and whether we haue loſt our time: or whether we be worthy of a reward. If we haue not buylded a matter agréeing to the foundation, when the truth & the iudgement of the ſpirit of god preſſeth our conſcience, or that the temptations alſo and the afflictions doe compaſſe vs rounde about, wée are compelled to condempne our worke, and we ſhall proue that that which we eſtéeme to be of ſome waight and importaunce, is nothing at all, and that in which we put our hope and truſt, cannot ſerue vs, neither confirme nor aſſure our conſciences,

Euſebius.

But how are we ſaued by the fire, if our workes are loſt, and by the ſame conſumed?

Theophilus.

The Apoſtle declareth it ſufficiently himſelf, To be ſaued by the ſyre. if we do marke of what people he ſpeaketh. He ſpeaketh not of Hereticks, Apoſtates, ſeducers and falſe Prophets, which teach falſe doctrine, contrary to the faith, and which are ſeperated from Ieſus Chriſt and from his body, which is the Church, by their infidelytie and peruerſitie. But he ſpeaketh of the Maſons and buylders of the Churche, that is to ſay, of Euangelycall Paſtors and Miniſters, which haue not forſaken the foundation, nor y head, which Col, 1. c. 18. &. , b. 10. •• hc. 1. d. 22 is Ieſus Chriſt, that is to ſay, which haue not tourned themſelues from the principall poynts and articles of the Chriſtian religion, and from the ſaith in Ieſus Chriſt, and from things neceſſary to ſaluation: But haue mingled ſome of their inuentions and traditions amongſt the doctrine of the Goſpell: and haue fayled in ſome lyttle and ſmall things which are not very daungerous. Thoſe then to whom ſuch things ſhall happen: ſhall receyue domage and loſſe: For their wor e, and that which they haue added to it of theirs ſhall periſh: and ſhall haue no more profite, then if they were altogether diſpoſſeſſed of them: But they ſhal haue rather ſhame and confuſion for them. Yet neuertheleſſe they ſhall be ſaued, but as by the fire: not their fault their errors and ignoraunce and their buildings, buylded without the word of God, may be agréea le to God: But bicauſe of the foundation which they haue holden and kept, and of the head of which they remayne members, and of the faith which abideth in them, ſhall be purged and delyuered from error and ignoraunce by that fire of the holy Ghoſt, with which they ſhall bée illuminated. But yet neuertheleſſe héerein, men will liken The 〈◊〉 of foolish builders. him vnto a fooliſh buylder, which ſhall buyld vpon a good and ſure foundation of ſtone and a rocke, a houſe or buylding of wood, •• ye, chaſſe and ſtubble, which thinke to haue made a goodly péece of worke, and knowes not his fault vntill that he ſéeth that the fire bath taken and conſumed it altogether. Then he knoweth by experience, that be hath loſt his time, and the coſt and expences that he hath beſtowed about it; and that be is forced to beginne his buylding a new, •• though he had neuer put his hand vnto it, ſauing that th ſhame and the loſſe abideth with him. We call our ſelues all Chriſtians, and doe confeſſe that there is but one foundation and one head, Ieſus Chriſt, But although that in that behalfe we doe all agrée, yet neuertheles when they come to buylde vpon that foundation, all ſhall not be found good Maſons. For many will be Maſters, before they haue bene good ſchollers and apprentices: and will not follow the rule and the inſtruction of the maſter Maſons, well expert and cunning in their miſtery and occupation, but thincking to make ſome fairer thing, doe buylde after their owne fantaſie. They doe preach or heare the Goſpell, and will ſerue god after their affection, and as they thinke good: And thincking to make ſome faire péece of worke they marre it altogether. But they doe not know it by and by, vntill ſuch time as the fire of the Goſpell and of the ſpirite of God, which is the true Iudge, and the truth reuealed vnto men deſtroyeth all the goodly outwarde appearaunce, and maketh it to be ſéene ſuch as it is, and not ſuch as it appeareth outwarde: As wée ſée by experience, in the Moonkiſh ſectes, and in many other ceremonyes, ſuperſtitions, Idolatryes, and workes inuented of menne, in which wee doe glorye and boaſte our ſelues, and thinke that we haue done mough for to merite foure Paradiſes, and for to make God to be in our debte. But when the Goſpell is purely preached which beateth down all error, all vayne ſuperſticion and mans truſt, then we ſhall know our fault, and be aſhamed of that of which we thinke to be much eſtéemed. Or when God ſendeth vnto vs ſome great affliction temptation and aduerſitie, that his iudgement preſſeth vs, that he examineth and prourth our woorkes, as the fire proueth and tryeth the golde in the furnayce. Then we ſhall know our hypocriſie, folly, vanitie, and falſe religion, the which wée doe not thinke but to be pure godlyneſſe and righteouſneſſe: And as the holy Apoſtle, eſteeming as dongue all that which before wée eſtéemed as golde. But foraſmuch as wée haue Philip. 3. b. 8 not renounced and forſaken Ieſus Chriſt, nor the fayth which wée haue in him, wee are not altogether loſt, thorow the fault that we haue committed, but it happened vnto vs, euen ſo as vnto him which hath eſcaped the fire. But he hath yet neuertholeſſe loſt his houſe, and all that which was in it, bicauſe that it was not buylded with good ſtuffe: and could ſaue but his body all naked his lyfe. Wherfore he muſt buyld it altogether new: doſt thou not thinke Euſebius, that this expoſition agréeth better to the ſence and meaning of the Apoſtle, then that of your Doctors which would tourne and wreſt it, to their ſence and vnderſtanding, againſt the ſame of the ſpirite of God, and of Saint Paul, and of the auncient Doctors, which haue neuer expounded it of the fire of Purgatory, but almoſt al of them to the ſence as I haue expounded it, chiefly Ambro. in 1. Cor. 3. The cuſtome of the falſe and tru doctors Saint Ambroſe. I cannot be too much abaſhed of the manner of doing of thoſe which will vphold mannes traditions. When we will propone any thing in the Church of Ieſus Chriſt, for a doctrine of ſaluation and an article of faith, we ought firſt of all dilygently to examine, whether that which we would put foorth, hath any certeine and ſure foundation in the word of God. If we find that it is commaunded of God and compriſed in the holy ſcriptures, we may and ought boldely to propounde and affirme it. On the contrary, if the Scripture doth make no mention of it, it is not lawfull onely to open the mouth, for to ſpeake one word, and for to propounde for certeine a thing vncerteine. For curſed is the man, which putteth foorth for a ſure doctrine, a thing, of which he himſelfe is not certein, and of which he cannot ſay with the Prophet and the holy Pſal. 116, b. 11 2. Cor. 4. c 13 Apoſtle: I haue beléeued it and therefore I ſpake it. For wée ought to beware and kéepe our ſelues, as from death, to teach vnto others, to beléeue and to do that, which we our ſelues beléeue not, and of which we are not certeine. Now it is impoſſible to be aſſured and certeine of ſuch things, then by the word of god the which we ought to follow in all things. But I ſée cleane contrary in thoſe which haue taught mens traditions, in ſtéede of the worde of God. For in ſtéede to take counſayle of it, before they doe inſtitute any thing, they haue firſt propounded and perſwaded the people, that which cōmeth in their out béeing much aduiſed, whether God hath commaunded or forbidden it. It ſufficeth them ſo that they haue ſome ſhew and appearaunce. And when they perceiue that one will examine their Doctrines by the rule of the word of God, then fearing to be ouercome and condempned, they ſéeke if they can finde any thing in the Scripture for to proue their intent: the which they ought to haue done before they put tho thing foorth. But ſithence that they haue once ordeined and publiſhed it, and haue perceiued and felt the profit, it grieueth them ſore to recant and gaineſay it. And therefore they doe all their endeuours, for to finde in the Scripture ſome coulour, for to beautifie and ſhew foorth their worke: And there is nothing, ſo that it hath any appearaunce at all, but that they drawe it violently, depraue and marre it, for to make it ſerue to their purpoſe.

Hillarius.

They doe as thoſe which doe fight together, which take and catch all that commeth to their hands, for to defende them with, bée it ſwoorde, launce, ſtaffe forke, pole, fire brande, ſtones, dunge, myre, duſt, aſſhes, and all that which they can catch or come by, without regarding any thing but to defende themſelues and hurt their enimie. For that is all one vnto them, ſo that they eſcape, cary away the victory. Theſe Theologians Proue b . Rogula Leſbia. Ariſt. •• . mora. Eraſ. chil. doe make me to remember the olde pronerbe, of the rule Leſbia, the which was of Lead: Wherefore the Maſons of Leſbia boowed it as they would. And in ſtéede that they ought to meaſure and compaſſe their worke by the ſame, and the ſtones which they hewed and the wals which they builded, and to correct and amende them if they were not right & wel compaſſed, they did cleane contrary. For they did bend & make crooked their rule for to make it to agrée with their worke, where they ought to make the worke to agrée to the ſame. And ſo it obeyed them in all thinges. And whereas they ſhould correct and amend their worke by the rule, they corrected and amended the rule by their woorke. Euen ſo are many of the lawes, the which one maketh them to agrée to the manners, whereas by them they ought to be corrected, & not the lawes by mās affections.

Theophilus.

There is not a thing the which at this daye they doe more abuſe in that ſort, then the holy Scriptures. There is not a rule more firme, more ſurer and certeine, and yet neuertheleſſe the falſe Doctors to all purpoſes dooe tourne and wreſt it to their ſence and vnderſtandinge, as wée doe ſée by experience in that matter of Purgatorye. For ſithence that once that errour was brought into the Church of God, as ſoone as was founde in the holy Scripture one woorde that made mencion of fire, they haue by and by drawen and applyed it to their purpoſe, and haue taken it for a certeine proofe of Purgatorye, without hauing regarde, that the fire in the ſame is taken more then in a thouſand places, as well in the olde as newe Teſtament, in ſo many diuerſe ſignifications, chiefely in the pſalmes, Eſay, Ieremy, and in the other Prophetical and Apoſtolical Scriptures, of which it is not now néede to bring foorth the examples.

Hillarius.

Thou haſt hearde a ſufficient declarati n of that place, of which thou oughteſt to content thy ſelfe Euſebius, and to kéepe thy ſelfe from following the example of your Doctors, which doe drawe and wreaſt the holy Scriptures, for to make them ſinge what it pleaſeth them, more cruelly then Tyrant would draw and handle a malefactor on the racke and on the gallowes.

Euſebius.

They doe ſay the lyke of you.

Hillarius.

But it is ea •• ly to iudge vnto whome that office agréeth beſt.

Euſebius.

And howe vnderſtandeſt thou this place of Saint Mathew? where hée ſayth: Agrée with thine aduerſary The place o Ma . , •• , 5. quickly, whileſt thou art in the waye with him, leaſt th nouerſary deliuer thée to the Iudge, & the Iudge deliuer thee to the Miniſter, & then thou be caſt in priſon. Verely I ſaye vnto thée: thou ſhalt not come out thence til thou haue payde the vttermoſt farthing. What other priſon may wée vnderſtande héere, but the ſame of Purgatory? For from that ſame of hell there is neuer no hope to come foorth. But ſith that it is heere ſpoken of the comming foorth, after they haue wholy and fully ſatiſfyed, we cannot doubt, but that the ſame priſon is Purgatorye, in which the ſoules are deteined and kepte in paines, vntill they haue fully ſatiſfied for all their ſinnes.

Theophilus.

Sith that thou expoundeſt the priſon in ſuch ſorte, I demaund of thée, who is the Iudge, of whom is héere made men ion off?

Euſebius.

It is God.

Theophilus.

And who is the aduerſe partie?

Euſebius.

The Diuell.

Theophilus.

And who is The Sargeants of Purgatori , the Sargent or Miniſter?

Euſebius.

The Angell.

Theophilus.

Thou wilt then ſay that the Angells doo conduct and lead, the ſoules into Purgatorye, to the place of paines and orments?

Euſebius.

Who then? the Diuels? Shall it be reaſonable, that the faythfull ſhould be put into the hande of the diuell, for to he ſubiect vnto him whom they haue vanquiſhed and ouercome? and puniſhed? by him ouer whom they haue triumphed?

Theophilus.

They haue not yet wel triumphed, if they be yet ſo deteined and kept in ſinnes, that for them they muſt be kept in a fire, altogether lyke vnto that ſame of hell, for the time that they are there. Mee thinkes that that office ſhould be more decent and meete for the Diuels, then for the Angells. For it is not lyke to be true, that the Angells ſhould be the hangmen of the ſoules of the faythfull, and that they ſhoulde take pleaſure to impriſon and torment ſo cruellye their neighbours and bretheren, whiche are Citizens of Heauen with them. I haue read in the holy Scriptures, that the Angells caryed the ſoule of Lazarus into the beſome L •• . 16. b. 0 of Abraham, into a place of ioye and reſt, and that they haue deliuered Saint Peter and the Apoſtles out of priſon: But I haue neuer read that they haue lead them Act, •• b. 7 eon. de tin. ſe . d ••• or. Aut Flo e •• ia Sum. into priſon, nor into places of tormentes, nor that they did leade the rich man into hell.

For as much as your Doctors confeſſe that the Diuels do holde themſelues next to the ſoules of thoſe which are purged in Purgatory, and doe accompany them, for to reioyce themſelues of their torments and to mocke them of the ſame: They may beſt gi e that office vnto them, and to exempt and omit the Angells. But what appearaunce hath it with thy expoſition? If the Du el, or the ſinne ought héere to be vnderſtanded for our aduerſe partye, it followeth then that Ieſus Chriſt commaundeth vs to agrée and to be at one with the diuel and ſinne. But how can we be agreed with him and with God? Furthermore, he would that that ſame agréement ſhould be done whileſt that one is in the way, that is to ſay, in this lyfe. For after that man is dead, he is out of the way. It muſt then followe that he muſt make héere his good déedes, before he doe dye, for to auoide that priſon of Purgatorye. And the ſame ſhall be for to confirme the prouerbe of the Prieſtes, ſaying: that better is the candle that goeth before, then that Prouerbe The candl before. that commeth behinde?

Euſebius.

How wilt thou interprete that place?

Hillarius.

Sith that there is an allegory, and that your Doctors doe play ſo with the word of God, I will alſo play and ieſt with them. Firſt, although there were none other reaſon, but that you will heare build the Purgatory vpon an allegory, it is ſufficient inough, for to ouerthrow and pull downe all your foundation. For there is not a Theologian The vſe of alleg ••• es. which confeſſeth not but that the Allegoryes are not ſufficient for probation and confirmation of doctrine, whatſoeuer it bée, if it haue none other foundation, more cléerer and more playne in the worde of God: but is more proper and fitte for to beautifie and ſet out the matters, to delite and mooue the auditors and hearers, then for to proue and confirme it. For one maye expounde them after diuerſe manners, accordinge to the dexteritie and wit of him which declareth them.

And therefore if I woulde ieſte and playe with the woorde of GOD, as your Doctours doe. I might allegoriſe Expoſition allego ••• all. and declare that place, expoundinge the Iudge for the Pope, which is the God Pluto. The aduerſari for the Prieſtes. For they doe quarrell with vs alwaies for to get money from vs, and we can neuer be at one, and agréed with them, except they haue al, and that they haue eaten vs quicke and dead. The Sergeaunt that is the Angell and the God Mercury. For according to the Poetical Merc •• y. Theologie, he had wings and aryed the ſoules to hel, and was the God of gayne, of deceipts & larc nyes as already hath bene touched. Now who leadeth the ſoules into Purgatory, but that S rgeaunt héere of God Pluto? As the cauſe of the gayne and hope of the money and raunſome which our Merchaunts and aduerſe parties doe looke for? They would gladly that we ſhould agrée with them whilſt that we are in the way, in this preſent lyfe: and that wée ſhould diſtribute vnto them all our goodes, without leauing any thing, neyther to our children, parents, nor friends. I am very certeine, that after that we haue giuen them all, and that there is no more hope to gette any more raunſome of vs, that there ſhall bée no more priſon for vs, nor Sergeaunts for to leade vs thether. Doeſt thou thinke Euſebius, that my interpretation is not as good as thine? I am well aſſured, that as to the ſence and meaning of the words of Ieſus Chriſt, neyther the one nor the other approcheth nigh vnto it, and leſſe thine then mine: but according to your Theologie, mine is more ſufferable and more true.

Thomas.

Thou wilt then ſay, that the one and the other are nothing worth: and therfore Theophilus, expound vnto vs the true ſence and meaning of Ieſus Chriſt.

Theophilus.

We muſt wel note and marke that which Hillarius hath ſayd of Allegories. How much difference there is betweene thi héere of Ieſus Chriſt, and thoſe which y expoſitors do make commonly. For in theſe words The ſence of the vvords of Ieſus Chriſt. of Ieſus Chriſt, there i an example & a compariſon wrapped in with an Allegorie. For Ieſus Chriſt would not here declare any other thing, but into what dangers & inconu niences thoſe doe put themſelues, which had rather to goe to the igour of right then to agrée friendly with the aduerſe partie, before they doe come to iudgement: to that ende that hée doth the better incitate and ſtirre forwarde men vnto amitie and brotherly reconcilyation, of which he ſpeaketh in this place. After the ſame forte doth Saint Bretherly re 〈◊〉 Ch •• ſ •• M . 5. Homil. 16. Chriſoſtome expounde it, without making any mention of Purgatory, and he alloweth not thoſe which do vnderſtand by the aduerſe partie the diuell, but interpreteth that place o lees an proceſſe. Now our Lord Ieſus the better to moue the hearers to brotherly reconc lyation, taketh example vppon the pleaders, as if he ſhoulde ſaye: If thy aduerſe partie do bring thée into iudgement, th •• canſt doe no better for thy honour and profite, then to agrée with him, before thou proue and try the rigour of right. For if thou agrée friendly with the partie, he may ſhew thée ſome fa our and forgiue thee the deb e, and thou ſhalt auoyde the diſhonour, ſhame, and the coſt s, which is beſtowed vppon the playnts. On the contrary if thou doe not agrée, thou canſt not ſo well auoyde the payment: but the Iudge ſhall know it, and thou ſhal be condemned and compelled to pay to the vttermoſt all the debt, without rebating one farthing, euen as thoſe which for debt are deteined and kept in priſon, vntill the ende of th payment. Beholde the example and the ſimilytude which Ieſus Chriſt propounded vnto vs, for to bring vs to reconcilyation. But he declareth not amply that which he would haue vs to vnderſtand by the ſame: but it ſu •• ſeth him to haue ſet vs in the way, and he hath opened vnto vs the vnderſtanding of that which he would teach vs, which auayleth as much as if he had ſayd: Whileſt that thou arte yet alyue and that thou haſt time, retourne in grace, and agree with thine aduerſary, that is to ſay with thy brother and neighbour, whome thou haſt offended, and to whome thou art bound. For we are debters, vnto all thoſ to whom we haue done iniurie and wrong.

And therefore let vs not ſuffer that the bloude of our brother ſhould demaund ve geaunce, and delyuer vs into the hande of the Iudge. Le te vs not tary vntill we bée cy ed and that the day bee aſſigned vnto vs, for to a peare in his iudgement: But let vs con •• rre our contrauerſies friendly the one with the other, whileſt he giueth vs leaſure, and he himſelfe as a rightfull arbitrator exhorteth vs to doe it.

For be we aſſured that if wée doe it not, after that hée ſhall tary long time, he himſelfe will ſet vs agréed. But that ſhall be to the great coſt and expences and to the great hurte and ſhame of him in whom he ſhall finde the wrong, and who ſhall be the cauſe of the controuerſie, and of the lette and h •• deraunce which ſhall be in the agreement.

For he ought to be aſſured that his malyce and obſtination ſhall be vnto him déere ſolde, and that he ſhall not be abated one onely farthing: for if he be condemned to ſatiſfie to the righteouſneſſe of God, euen to the vttermoſt penny, there is no more hope of health and ſaluation. For ſith that the ſentence is once giuen, and that man is out of this mortall lyfe, there is no more time to demaunde and aſke agréement.

On the other ſide, it is impoſſible that man can euer haue wherewith to ſatiſfie God, ſith that thorow his infidelytie & peruer •• tie he hath made y ſatiſfaction of Ieſus Chriſt vnprofitable for himſelfe. It followeth then neceſſarily y that priſon is not purgatory, but hel, which hath The priſon. no iſſue, nor place of raunſome. Wherefore that place concludeth nothing for the Purgatory. And although it be ſayde that man ſhall not come out of that priſon, vntill that he hath payed the vttermoſt farthing, wée muſt not therefore conclude y he ſhall come out at any time, but rather that he ſhall neuer come out. For that manner of Do ••• . ſpeaking is very common in the Scripture, and ought to be vnderſtanded as y which is written of y Rauen which Noe did ſende out, which retourned not agayne: vntil that Geneſ. , b. . the waters were dryed vp.

It followeth not therefore that hée retourned agayne at any time afterwards. And Saynt Auguſtine expoundeth that ſame place, eue as that which is written by that ſame Euangelyſt, ſpeaking of Ioſeph, ſaying, that he knew not the Virgin Mary, Math. . d 25 vntil ſhe had brought foorth hir firſt begotten ſon. We muſt not conclude by theſe words, with Hel •• dius, that he hath knowen hir afterwards. For he meaneth none other Helindius. thing, but that he knew hir not, whē ſhe •• re Ieſus Chriſt. But it followeth not therefore that he hath knowen hir afterwards: Or otherwiſe he ſhould be forced to conclude, that Ieſus Chriſt ſhall reigne no more, after that he ſhall haue put all his enemyes vnder his feete, therefore it is written, that the Lord hath ſayd vnto him: Sitte thou on my right hand, vntill I put all thine enemies thy footſtoole. Pſa. ••• . •• . Thou doeſt then ſée that the expoſition of Saint Auguſtine, ouerthroweth yours. And that which I ſay of that place, muſt be alſo vnderſtanded of that which is writt •• afterwards of the ſeruaunt which would not haue compaſſion The ſence and me ning of the parable. Ma . •• . . 0, vpon his companion, nor forgiue him the debt. Ther is no difference, but y Ieſus Chriſt by that example declareth vnto vs, that we muſt not hope to obteine pardon of God, except we haue done firſt all our endeauour, to obteine it of thoſe whom we haue offended, and to ſatiſfie and become friends agayne with them. Alſo in lyke manner by the other he declareth vnto vs, that we ought to haue no more hope, if we doe not pardon thoſe which ſhall offend vs.

Thomas.

We muſt not then, by that reckoning, tary to pay our debts, and to amend the iniuryes done vnto our neighbours, vntil we be dead, for to make ſatiſfaction afterwardes in Purgatory to the Prieſtes, vnto whome the wrong was not done and the debts were not due.

Theophilus.

Euen as by that example Ieſus Chriſte exhorteth euery one of vs, to agree with our neighbour, during this lyfe: So he admoniſheth vs to doe the lyke towardes GOD, vſing the very ſame ſimilytude in the Goſpell after Saynct Luke: Declaring vnto vs thereby, that if wee doe knowe howe to prouide and The 〈◊〉 •• d meaning of the vvords of Sa •• t Luke. 1. g u rne our affayres and dooinges after the worlde, and to agrée with thoſe vnto whom we are bound, for to auoyde the loſſe and inconueniences into which we maye fall, we ought by a more ſtronger reaſon to trauayle to doe ſo with God, whileſt that the time of our viſitation indureth, and that he giueth vs time and ſpace to agrée with him thorow true repentance. For after y the ſentence ſhall be giuen, there ſhall be no more remedie. Thou maiſt then Euſebius knowe, if thou doeſt well vnderſtand the meaning of the words of Ieſus Chriſt, that they doe deſtroy Purgatory, in ſtéede to buylde it. For he giueth vs no hope that we may take order and remedie for our affaires and buſineſſe after we be dead, but he would that we diſpoſe it both with God, and among our ſelues, before that we departe from hence, and that we appeare before his face.

Thomas.

Thou muſt then ſéeke ſome other way, Euſebius. For as farre as I doe perceiue and ſée, that place will not helpe vppe thy Purgatory.

Euſebius.

Then before we goe out from that Euangeliſt, tell me Theophilus, The place of Sainct Mat. •• c 31. Luc. •• . b. 0 wherefore Ieſus Chriſt hath ſayd, that the ſinne agaynſt the holy Ghoſt is not pardoned in this worlde, nor in the world to come.

Theophilus.

That poynt is one of the chiefeſt arguments which your Doctors doe put foorth for the defence of Purgatory. But what wilt thou thereby conclude?

Euſebius.

That which Saint Gregory concluded, who Dialo. 4. D ſt. 25. ca Qual s. wayed and marked well thoſe words, and ſayd, that by that ſentence is giuen vs to vnderſtand, that there are ſome ſinnes, which are pardoned in this world, and others which are in the other world, which out to be purged before the iudgement, and for the which it is to be beléeued, that there is a fire. If in the other worlde there bée forgiueneſſe of ſome ſinnes, it cannot be in Hell. Then of force it muſt be in Purgatory.

Theophilus.

I doe greatly meruayle of that Logicke, which maketh ſuch Silogiſmes and concluſions: That ſin is not pardoned in this world nor in the world to come. There is then ſome which is pardoned in the worlde to come: the which cannot be but in Purgatory. Wherefore there is a Purgatory. There is not a Sophiſter ſo ignoraunt, which ought not to knowe, that according to the rules of their Logicke, one cannot draw a conſequence whatſoeuer it be, of propoſitions altogether negatiues. If then of negatiues, a conſequence negatiue is nothing Ex puris negatiu •• nihil ſequitur. worth, how ſhall the affirmatiue be good, ſuch as you woulde héere conclude? Why one you not conclude rather. This ſinne is not pardoned in this world nor in the worlde to come. It ſhall be then neuer pardoned, For if there be a pardon, it cannot be but in this worlde or in the other. The conſequence after this manner ſhould be good. For the Antecedent hath comprehended al the times and places to whome the ſinne may be pardoned.

And after that ſorte doth Saint Marke expounde it, of Mar 3. d 19 whome the gloſe is more certeine, then yours. For in ſteede of that that Saint Mathew hath ſayd, neyther in this world nor in the other, he hath ſaid: neuer. Wherein it appeareth that thoſe two propoſitions are equiualent and of equalytie. That ſinne is not pardoned neyther in this worlde, nor in the other: and that ſinne is neuer Propoſitions., Eq poll •• is. pardoned. Furthermore, you doe conteſſe, that it muſt bée that the fault of ſinne, the which maketh man ſubiect to dampnation, be alredy pardoned in this world, & that ther remayneth but the payne, the which he muſt beare and ſuffer in Purgatory. For you doe putte none other difference, Di erſitie of pardons. betwéene the ſoules of the bleſſed which are already at reſt, and thoſe of Purgatory, and the dampned, but that the Saints which are already in Paradiſe, are pardoned of payne and fault. Thoſe which are in Purgatory, are not pardoned but of the fault, but they muſt heare and ſuffer the payne due to ſinne, vntill ſuch time as they haue ſatiſfied for it, and that they be perfectly purged.

But yet neuertheleſſe bicauſe that the faulte is pardoned them, their payne is not to them eternall, as the ſame of the dampned, bicauſe that the fault of dampnation is ta ken away from them, the which abideth and continueth vpon the reprobate. Now Ieſus Chriſt ſpeaketh héere of ſinne which dampneth, the which agreeth not but to the reprobate. Wherefore he ſpeaketh of the faulte of ſinne, the which is not pardoned in Purgatory, according to your doctrine, for in the ſame one can but releaſe the payne.

It followeth then, that although that we doe agrée and graunt vnto you that ther is ſome forgiuenſſe of ſinne in the other worlde, euen as you woulde conclude of the words of Ieſus Chriſt that the ſame ſhould nothing at all relieue and helpe vp your Purgatory. Wée muſt then Sinne againſt the holy Ghoſt. conſider the manner of ſpeaking, by the which Ieſus Chriſt woulde declare, how greate and deteſtable that ſinne is, and to take away all the hope of pardon, vnto thoſe which in that poynt will reſiſt the truth knowen, and will goe about to quenche and putte out the lyght of the holy Ghoſt, which is offered vnto them.

And therefore hée was not contented to ſay: that ſinne ſhall neuer be forgiuen and pardoned. But the better for to augment and amplyfie the thing, hée woulde vſe that manner of ſpeaking, which comprehendeth the iudgement of God, the which already euery man féeleth in his conſcience in this lyfe: and that latter iudgement which ſhall be manifeſted in the reſurrection.

Wherefore hee ſayth briefely, that in this ſame lyfe, in the which God hath giuen to man, time and ſpace to conuert and tourne himſelfe vnto him, that ſinne ſhall neuer be pardoned, and yet leſſe in that latter iudgement, in which God will giue his latter ſentence: except peraduenture there were ſome, which in him had ſome hope.

But it followeth not thererefore that he hath forgiueneſſe of any ſinne, in the worlde to come, which ſhall not bée héere pardoned. But to the ende that thou mayſt yet better knowe, that Ieſus Chriſt hath not ſpoken in that ſorte without iuſt reaſon, we muſt conſider that he furniſheth vs héere with a good witneſſe againſt the Originiſts and Anabapti •• s, which doe promiſe forgiueneſſe of ſins Againſt the Crigeniſte vnto the Diuells and reprobate in the other worlde. Although I doe not beleeue, that Origines was of ſuch an opinion: For his bookes doe witneſſe vnto vs the contrary. But for to retourne vnto the words of Ieſus Chriſt, ſith that Ieſus Chriſt ſayth ſo cléerely, that that ſinne, which is proper vnto them, ſhall not haue forgiueneſſe in this world nor in the other, it followeth then, that it ſhall neuer haue: or els it muſt be that they finde out an other thirde worlde, euen as they haue founde out a temporall eternitie, to the which they doe giue an ende: and an eternall A temporal eternitie. fire, which is temporall, not perdurable. But although it ſhould be ſo, that there ſhould be in the world to come ſome forgiueneſſe of ſinnes, it followeth not therefore, that it is neceſſary to haue there a Purgatory. Now firſt of all there is no certeine witneſſe that there is any remiſſion and forgiueneſſe after this lyfe, but a certeine humayne coniecture and preſumption. Then if that propoſition be buylded vppon humayne coniecture and preſumption, yet that which affirmeth the Purgatory is beſt, ſith that the ſame is none other thing but a coniecture and preſumption, buylded vpon other coniectures and preſumptions. For put the caſe that there ſhould be forgiueneſſe in the other lyfe, coulde it not be in any other place rather then in Purgatory? or at an other time, then you do there limit? Could it not haue bene giuen, either by and by after that one is dead, or delayed vntill the latter iudgement? But which of the auncienteſt doctors of the church is there, that euer hath expounded that place in ſuch ſence as thou takeſt it? Chriſoſtome expeundeth it after this Chriſo. in Mat. 12. omel, 42 manner: Sith that that ſinne is not veniall vnto you, you ſhall be grieuouſly puniſhed both in this lyfe and in the other. He meaneth none other thing by thoſe words, but that the Iewes which reſiſted the holy Ghoſt, ſhall not be only puniſhed in this world, for to be chaſtiſed and corrected 1. Cor. •• , 2 〈◊〉 Luc, 6. c. 23 as the Corinthians were: or onely in the other world, as the rich man was: but they ſhall be héere and there, as thoſe of Sodome and Gomorra. For they were Gen •• , •• , , 24 deſtroyed by the Romaines, and haue not eſcaped eternall dampnation. There is nothing in this expoſition which can ſerue you. Thoſe which are of an opinion, y the ſ •• les doe abide vncertein of their ſaluation, or dampnation, and that they may yet profit or empaire betwéene this and the great iudgement: In like manner thoſe which doe eſteme and thinke that the goſpel ſhalbe preached vnto the ſoules of the dead, to which it hath not bene heere declared, ſhall they not haue more colour héere to build their reaſons and arguments, then you for your Purgatory? For at the leaſtwiſe, thoſe latter héere ſhal haue more appearaunce, a cording to the ſcripture, bicauſe that they may or can alledge ſome places, which doe ſéeme expreſly inough to fauour that opinion. And yet they haue other reaſons very apparant, where you haue not but certeine colde coniectures Nowe Ieſus Chriſt, who is the infallible veritie woulde not, that we ſhould builde the articles of our fayth, vppon coniectures, but vpon the expreſſe veritie. For ſith that he and his Apoſtles doe witneſſe, that they haue man feſted Iohn, 15 Act. 20 •• . 20 all that which was neceſſary to our ſaluation, & hath commended to vs ſo much the loue towards our bretheren, it is not lyke to be true, but is repugnant to the witneſſe of Ieſus Chriſt, that they haue ſpoken vnto vs ſo obſcurely, & haue giuen vnto vs onely ſome coniectures of this matter, and of the loue that we owe vnto the dead, the which the Prieſtes doe wreſt it more, then that which is due vnto thoſe that be liuing.

Hillarius.

Bicauſe that Ieſus Chriſt hath ſpoken ſo obſcurely, therefore they would make commentaries & gloſes, for to declare it, bicauſe that it bringeth vnto them more profit.

Thomas.

Thou haſt opened a place, Theophilus, of which I would gladly be reſolued, that is to ſay, Pre ching to the dead. of the preaching to the dead. For to tell the truth I haue oftentimes dreamed & muſed after it, bicauſe that I conſidered, y according to the witneſſe of the Scripture, n ne ohn, 35 can haue ſaluation, but thorowe the faith in Ieſus Chriſt. Now if we do compare thoſe which haue knowne Ieſus Chriſt and haue beleeued in him, with thoſe which haue not beleeued, and which haue neuer hard him ſpeake, the number of thoſe here ſhalbe very little, in reſpect of others. Wherefore it followeth, that there ſhould be a merua lous number of the damned, & that the mercy of God ſhall not be ſo great as his rigor & iudgement. Now it is ſtraunge to mans reaſon, to iudge that God will dampne ſo many, chie •• y, ſith y he hath had as many which haue not known Ieſus Chriſt, for want that one hath not ſhewed him vnto them. Wherefore me thinketh that the opinion of thoſe héere is not much out of reaſon: And I would gladly know what places they can haue of the holy Scripture for to proue it, for I will accord and agrée almoſt ſooner to that, then to the opinion of Purgatory.

Theophilus.

Thou haſt moued a queſtion, the whiche cannot be expreſſed and abſolued in few wordes. For we muſt firſt declare what knowledge of Ieſus Chriſt is neceſſary vnto ſaluation: and how it hath bene alwayes preached from the beginning of the world, among all people & nations: And how it hath ben ſufficiently manifeſted vnto the elect for their ſaluation, & to the reprobate for their condempnation: Inſomuch that they are all inexcuſable, & they cannot alledge ignorance ſufficient for to excuſe them: And it is not néedfull that they haue any more preaching after this lyfe. But I had rather that we would omit and leaue off that matter vntill an other time, that we maye ſpeake more amply of it, and better to ſatiſfie the queſtion which is made dayly, touching the ſaluation or dampnation of our predeceſſors, which haue liued in errour and ignoraunce. Yet neuertheleſſe bicauſe that the places, which we haue accuſtomed to alledge, for y preaching to the dead may alſo ſerue to the matter at this preſent time, I am contented y we do entreat of them, for to declare that they are not firme inough for to proue the ſame: nor the Limbe. nor Purgatory in like manner to which the others would make thē ſerue. But for that that it may be, that Euſebus doth put them foorth amongſt his defenſes, it were better that we do delay that matter, vntil ſuch time as he bringeth it in by courſe, in following his matter by order: or if be do it not, thou maiſt put me in remembrance Thomas. Yet neuertheleſſe before that Euſebius purſueth the other places that he hath determined to put foorth or open, I wil propound vnto him an argument, concerning the point of which we haue entreated off, that is to ſay, of the remiſſion & forgiuenes of ſinnes in the other world? Whervpon I demaund of thée Euſebius: when Ieſus Chriſt did giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen vnto his Church, as wel in y perſon of S. Peter as vnto al y church generally, & that he declare the power of them & of the eccleſiaſtical miniſtry, hath he not ſayd namely: That which thou ſhalt The povver of the keyes, Mat. 16 c. 19 &. 18. c. 18 binde in earth ſhall be bound in heauen, & that which thou ſhalt looſe in earth ſhall be looſed in heauen. He ſayth not: That which thou ſhalt binde or vnbinde, in heauen or in Purgatory, or in hell, or in the other world, or in the other life, and in an other earth, but ſpeaketh of this héere in the which the keys haue ben giuen, & in the which the Euangelical miniſtry hath his vigor and ſtrength. I wil not reiterate that that you ſaid of the forgiuenes of fault & paine. For al that is againſt you But me thinketh that the Pope and thoſe that haue receiued the power of him, doe verye euill vnderſtand their office, willing to extend and ſtretch the power of their keyes, pardons and indulgences, vnto The povver of the keyes & the Indulgences for the dead. the other world, and vnto the dead, which haue their eſtate a part and ſeperated from ours, and are no more vnder the iudgement of the church which is in earth, which hath not to regard but on the liuing.

Euſebius,

Alexander of Ales, & Gabriel Biel haue very wel ſatiſfied y obiectiō. For they do In. 4. Sent. Res erper. de mor virt ſerm. Dom. in ſexa. anſwere, y the dead ought to be accōpted, to be yet vpō the earth, as touching y abſolutiō or ligatiō: binding or vnbinding, vntil y they are paſſed & entred into the kingdome of heauen. For whileſt y the ſoules are in purgatory, they are vpon the earth, ſith that they are not yet in heauē, & that Betvvene vvhether the ſoules of purgatory are prented. they are yet of the Church militant, & not of y triumphāt. Furthermore, euen as thoſe which are in the earth are yet in the way, and not at the end & full marke, ſo are thoſe which are deteined in Purgatory: They are in paſſing, for to goe to the countrey, as touching the purgation, by the which they are purged & paſſe to the country, as by y way. Although y they are at the ende & marke as touching the confirmation. For they can no more ſinne nor merit. Furthermore, all the while that they are ayded, & receiue comfort of the temporall & earthly goods, by prayers, one may well holde & accompt them for to be yet of this world, ſith that they doe communicate with vs of the goods which are there.

Hillarius.

He will accompt then of the dead, as of the Monkes, which are dead to the world in ſome pointes, Monkes dead to the vvorld but not in other ſome. They are dead to the world, as to that that they doe ſerue and profit no perſon, no more then the dead. But they are not dead, as to eating and drinking, and to other carnall workes. For in y there is not a people which doe better liue in the world, nor which are more of the world. Euen ſo ſhall it be of the dead. They ſhalbe dead to vs, for to giue vs any more ayde and ſuccour. But they ſhal not be dead for to hurt vs and to eate & conſume our goods and ſubſtaunce. It is ſaid in a common prouerb: Prouerbe. Mortus non mordent. The dead do byte. That the dead do not bite: But there are none liuing more biting, then ſuch dead men, except the Prieſts and Monks which do become vnto vs ſo biting, for to bite vs vnder the name and title of them.

Theophilus.

The Pope aduaunceth himſelfe to be the liuetenant of S. Peter: But wherefore The Pope the 〈◊〉 of Saint Peter. doth he attribute vnto himſelfe the office of S. Peter?

Euſebius.

Bicauſe that S. Peter can no more execute it.

Theophilus.

Wherefore can he no more exerciſe & execute it?

Euſebius.

Bicauſe y he is no more conuerſant among the liuing, and bicauſe he hath ended & finiſhed his courſe, and hath ended his miniſtry among men.

Theophilus.

Thou commeſt nowe to the matter. If then Saint Peter hath not belowe the Heauen power to abſolue vs, nor they of the other worlde, thoſe which are in this heere, how ſhall the Pope haue more power, for ſo abſolue belowe the earth, and they of this world, thoſe Abſolucion of the quick and the dead. which are in the other? Sith that he attributeth vnto himſelfe the office of ſaint Peter, for that that Saint Peter is abſent from thoſe that are liuinge wherefore 〈◊◊〉 not content himſelfe with the liuinge. What hath he to doe with the dead? If in the other world there be an premiſſion of ſinnes, and the 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊◊◊〉 : 〈◊〉 take place, wherefore doth he not leaue 〈◊〉 of the ſame vnto Saint Peter, and to the Prophets, Apoſtles, Martyrs and confeſſors which are there. For if it bée néedfull to pardon ſinnes to the dead in the other world, thoſe which are there preſent, and know their 〈◊◊〉 they not better doe it then the Pope: 〈◊◊◊〉 which 〈◊〉 ••• ſent, and altogether ignoraunt 〈◊◊〉 eſtate and condition? They ſay that they cannot pardon ſinnes to thoſe that be aliue, nor abſolue them except they confeſſe themſelues vnto them ••• to know and iudge of th m how can they 〈◊◊〉 and giue 〈◊〉 vnto the ſoules of the dead, 〈◊◊◊〉 not, and 〈◊◊〉 confeſſion, nor know whether they be 〈◊◊〉 or not whether they be de eined . hell 〈◊〉 Purgatorye, or already The office of a Lieutenant. paſſed and arriued into 〈◊〉 I 〈◊〉 thincke that a liuetenant is 〈◊◊◊◊◊〉 the place of an other; which cannot 〈◊◊〉 prop •• perſon. Then if the Pope be the 〈◊〉 of Saint Peter: in this world, bicauſe that S. Peter is no more héere, howe can he be his liuetenaunt in the other world, in which Saint Peter is, and he is not? Beholde a ſort of liuetenauntes, the moſt ſtraungeſt that euer was in the world. For in ſtéed to holde and kepe the place, in which they ought to be pr ſent, in the name of thoſe that are abſent they béeing abſent, would holde the place in which they cannot be in the name of thoſe which are there preſent. Wherefore I would counſayle the Pope and his, to let the dead alone from henceſoorth, and to meddle no more with them, and that they doe leaue the charge vnto Sain t Peter and to Math, . c. 22 the other Apoſtles and Saintes which are with them.

Hillarius.

If Ieſus Chriſt hath ſayd vnto one of his Diſciples: let the dead bury the dead, we may well ſay vnto thoſe héere: let y dead abſolue y dead, & be you careful but for thoſe that be ti ing. For I doe aſſure them, that they ſhall haue inough to doe to gouerne the liuing, & they ſhal nde themſelues more indled & letted then they thinke, and more then they would. Wherefore I beléeue that they ſhall be forced to let the deade al ne, and to leaue all the charge vnto Saint Peter and vnto his compaignions: or for to ſpeake better 〈◊〉 God; which hath both the quick and the dead in his 〈◊〉 Wherefore wée haue no néede to •• men neither the quicke nor the end vnto y Saints nor Saintes, ut 〈◊〉 vnto the Lord Ieſus, who is the Iudge and Sauiour 〈◊◊◊〉 the Pope ſayth alſo that he is 〈◊〉 , I know not what ſhall be his Church. For if the Pope be liuetenaunt of Ieſus Chriſt: and the office of a 〈◊〉 is o holde the place of him that is abſent, it follow ••• then that I ſu Chriſt i not in the Popiſh Church, but h 〈◊◊◊◊〉 a 〈◊〉 . And ſo by that meanes the Popiſh Church ſhalbe without Ieſus Chriſt 〈◊〉 without God. Then of neceſſitie it muſt be that the Diuell 〈◊〉 , and that be is the ead and the God, as be is the God of this w •• ld. For in the Chriſtian Church, Ieſus Chriſt hath no néede of a ••• ar neither liuetenant, ſith that he 〈◊〉 alwayes preſent, and that he hath promiſed to be in the middeſt of his Diſciples, and with them vntill Mat, 18. c. 0 &. 28. d 20 the nde of the world. Except we will call his uly ſpirit, his ear after the imitation of Tertulian bicauſe that it r igneth in vs by him, and qiutheneth vs. huſebius. Mee thinketh that no reaſon can perſwade ••• . For the aunſwere 〈◊〉 I haue alledged vnto you of Alexander of Ales, hath already ſatiſfied all your obiections and replyings, 〈◊〉 although that S. Peter and the Apoſtles are in the other world, they are not therefore in Purgatory.

Wherefore their miniſtrie & their power of their eyes, cannot be ſtretched & pulled out the her, but are in heau , in which ther is no more néede.

Theophilus.

Alſo, •• more is the Pope neither the prieſts. I know not whether that The keyes of Saint Peter & the Pope. their key be longer, then that of Saint Peter, or whether that there were more ſpace from the heauen vnto Purgatory, then from y earth.

Hillarius.

But how knoweſt thou, whether that Sain Peter hath caryed his key with him or 〈◊〉 . For if the Pope haue it, Saint Peter hath it no more.

Theophilus,

Saint Peter had two names, and was called before Symon, Now I beléeue in déede, that the Pope may haue the keyes of Symon, not of Simon Peter, but of Simon Peter. Mat. 16. c. 19 Iohn. 1. •• . 42 Simon Magus: the which argée not with the true oore, which is Ieſus Chriſt: nor with the true locke which is the word of God, the which is ••• o the true key of knowledge The keyes of Symon. Iohn. 10. . 7 Luc. 11. g. 52 for to open vnto vs the kingdome of heauen.

Thomas.

He hath then chaunged the key.

Theophilus.

There is nothing truer.

Thomas,

And his, to what doore doth it agrée?

Hillarius.

Vnto that of the cofers ſcrips, for to ſtuffe and fill them,

Thomas.

Then Purgatory is in our purſes.

Hillarius.

We haue ſufficiently pre ed it. Purgatery of purſes. For they haue ſo well purged vs, that thou wil ſay that they are made of the 〈◊〉 of the D •• ell. For any one croſſe may not ary in it, where that Purgatory is.

Thomas.

It muſt be called then from hencefoorth, Pag tory, Pagatore. or purge purſe. Now if the Purgatory be ſo •• e, it is not now néedfall that the key be too long for to open it. But whatſoeuer it be, the Popes haue ben y ſubtileſt lockyers, & the greateſt othſmiths y euer was in the world. The great lockyer. For ther was neuer none, as farre as I can ſee, which hath made and counterfaited more keyes, nor which hath made them to agrée better to all locks.

Hillarius.

The experience doth witneſſe it.

Theophilus.

I do think yet vpon an other reaſon, againſt y of Euſebius. If thou wilt limit y miniſtry The prieſthod of the dead. of Saint Peter and of the Apoſtles, within the compaſſe of heauen, and wilt not ſuffer their power to bée ſtretched foorth euen to the confins and ende of Purgatorye, at the leaſt thou ſhalt not denye mée, but that there be ſome Popes, Cardinalls, Biſhoppes, Prieſtes, and Monkes in Purgatory, 〈◊〉 thou wilt ſay y the do o all ſtraight way into paradiſe, or into 〈◊〉 . Now if, they be in Purgatory, wherefore •• e ye not ſuffer them to haue that office, in the places, where they are preſent.

Euſebius.

Bicauſe for that they are ſinners as others are and ſubiect vnto one iudgement they are of the ſame condition as the others, and they cannot giue them that whereoff they themſelues haue néede, and cannot haue it for them, Furthermore, as ſoone as they are dead, they are depriued from that office.

Hillarius.

I haue two reaſons for to beate downe thy aunſwere: The firſt is that I am abaſhed, that the Pope and his doe attribute vnto themſelues the power to pardon all ſinnes, how great and wicked ſoeuer they bée, yea, all Sodomy, and if néede hée, the ſinne againſt the holy Ghoſt, notwithſtanding that it bée irr miſſible, and doe giue bul and pardons for all, ſo that one doe bring them money, and that they haue alſo power to pardon the ve •• all ſinnes in Purgatory. For according to your own doctrine, none are there deteined and kept but for the veniall ſinnes. For the mortall ſinnes, haue no purgation in the other world, but they muſt bee puniſhed in hell. And as to that that thou ſayeſt, that they are ſinners, and ſubiect to the ſame paines in Purgatory, ſo are they in this worlde, and leaue not off therefore to abſolue themſelues the one to the other, although they ſhoulde haue killed Father and Mother: and ſo make themſelues The papiſticall creame. Character indelibilis. as white as the Collyers. Furthermore, you doe call the impreſſion of your Creame and holy Oile with whiche you doe anointe the Priſtes, when they doe take their orders, Charector indelibilis, that is to ſaye, a marke and a ſigne which cannot be put out nor defaced. If it be ſo, the P ieſtes dooe abide and remaine alwayes Priſtes, although they be dead. For you will not confeſſe, that that impreſſion and marke is onely done vnto the bodye: But you doe affirme, that it penitrateth and pearceth euen to the ſoule: of which it can neuer be defaced nor abolyſhed, yet neuertheleſſe thou knoweſt better then I.

Theophilus.

They doe attribute vnto it ſuch vertue, that they doe affirme for cert ine, that a pr eſt, notwithſtanding ſo. Chaneſ. de ſacra. Corp. Ch •• . that he be an heriticke, or an apoſtate, or deſgraded, yet neuertheleſſe be ſhall haue power alwayes to conſecrate the body of God, as well as others, if he doe pronounce the ſacramentall wordes vppon the hoaſt, with the intencion to conſecrate.

Hillarius.

Beholde yet to confirme better my purpoſe I do not doubt for my parte, but that that Character is the marke, wherewith is marked the conſcience of thoſe The burning of the conſience 1. T •• oth, 4. . 2. which ſhall giue héede vnto ſpirits of errour and deuiliſh doctrine, and which are Apoſtates of the faith, according to the prophecie of ſaint Paul. That is the marke of the great whore of Babylon without which one cannot ſell The marke of the vvhore. Apoc. 13. c. 8 nor buy, nor haue any place in the Popiſh Church. That is a marke cleane contrary, vnto that which the Angell printed in the foreheads of the elect of God. Nowe ſith Apoc. 7. , 4 that the Apoſtles of Ieſus Chriſt, and the true biſhoppes and prieſts, which by them were ordayned, haue not had that Cautor that is to ſay Marke (I had thought to haue ſaid Charecter) I am not abaſhed, if they haue not ſuch power in the other worlde, as the Pope hath in the ſame and in this. But it is an other thing of him and of his which do departe out of this worlde, with this Cauter (I doe beguile my ſelfe alwayes) I doe ſay The example of Fryer Roger. with that Char •• ter, which they do beare alwayes with them. Wherfore they ought to haue no leſſer power there then here. And y ſame I wil proue by y example of Frier Rogers a C rdelier, which is recyted in the booke of the conformities of ſaint Fraunces. It is there written, that after that he was deade, he appeared vnto a certeine woman, who confeſſed vnto him all hir ſinnes, & hée gaue hir obſolution. If h being deade had the power to come to heare the confeſſion of the lyuing, and to abſolue them, wherefore ſhall not his other compagnions béeinge deade haue, and chiefely the Popes and Byſhoppes, who haue ordained them and confirmed them, as much power among the dead? Furthermore, if according to the witneſſe of your Doctors, others may ſatiſfie for vs, not onely during our lyfe, but alſo after yt we be dead, wherfore Tho. diſt. 5 q. 2. & diſt. 20 q. . ar. 3. & diſt. 4 . q. 4. ar. 1. cannot we after that we be dead ſatiſfie for our ſelues, and to cauſe Maſſes to be ſong in Purgatory, ſith that there are ſo many Prieſt's Popes, and Biſhops for to doe it? What thinkeſt thou Thomas.

Thomas.

Thou ſayeſt well. But I thinke that they cannot haue their hoaſts and ſinging cakes.

Hillarius.

Yet they had neuertheleſſe fire inough for to ſéethe or bake their gods.

Thomas.

If it be ſo, as they ſay, there is too much. And therefore I thinke that they cannot haue hoaſts, chalyces, aulters, nor veſtements. For the fire will ſchorch and conſume it all.

Hillarius.

Thou makeſt a good reaſon. But by that compt, how can the bulls and pardons of the Pope be kept and preſerued from the fire, which are ſent thether by hole cart loades, & which ſome do cauſe to be buried with them, for to cary them thether, ſith that they are but paper and parchment? The bulles in purgatory Aſmuch may we ſay of the rule and habite of Saint Fraunces. What ſayeſt thou Theophilus.

Theophilus.

There is yet an other poynt. If they will ſay that thoſe which are in Purgatory, can no more merite, neyther for themſelues, nor for others, they cannot ſay the lyke (without ſpeaking agaynſt the doctrine, which they haue giuen vs) of ye ſaints which are in Paradiſe. For they doe affirme, that they pray vnto God for vs, & that they are our interceſſors & aduocates towards The interceſſiō of the Saints for vs. him, and that in ſéeing God, which ſéeth all things, they doe ſee all as in a Mirrour or looking glaſſe. If they doe pray for vs which are yet in this lyfe, bicauſe of the great Grego. Rat. 〈◊〉 off. •• . 7 Rub. de off. Mort. loue and charitie that they haue towards vs, wherefore do they not alſo willyngly pray for their bretheren deteyned and kept in the fire of Purgatory? For they ſhoulde haue a greate deale more reaſon to doe that, if they had anye care or charge of menne. And that for manye cauſes.

Firſt that the eſtate and condition of the one and the other agréeth more, then it doth of the dead to the lyuing. Secondly, bicauſe that they themſelues can better perceiue of their eſtate and condition, and whether they bée more in payne, or whethether they be out of it, then we. For there is more agréeing of the ſpirits to the ſpirits, which are ſeperated from the bodye, then to vs which are yet wrapped in them. And which is more, if yt the ſoules of Aug. li. de ur. pro mor. Agen. 13. q. 2 Fatendum Ra . d ••• . off. R b. de off. mor. Purgatory doe know, eyther by diuine reuelation, or by the report of Angells, or of ye ſoules of them which dayly doe depart out of this worlde, that which is done vppon earth, as your Doctors doe teſtifie and affirme, can they not aſwell reporte and tell vnto the Saints that which is done in Purgatory? It is not lyke to be true, i there bée any, but that they are better aduertiſed then we, and that many wayes. And if they be aduertiſed, I cannot beléeue, that they are ſo inhumayne and vngentle, if they doe pray for the lyuing, but that they doe pray a great deale more for thoſe poore ſoules: ſith that they are in ſo gréeuous torments, without any compariſon that may be in the world. I doe ſpeake alwayes according to your doctrine. And this is the thirde reaſon, by the which I will conclude agaynſt the Prieſtes, eyther that the Saints doe not praye for the lyuing: or ye it is in lyke manner neceſſary and a great dele more néedeful that they pray for the dead. Now if they pray for the dead, I am of an opinion, that we leaue vnto thē al the charge. For it agreeth better to them then vnto vs, ſith that they are no more of this world, but of the other, in which are thoſe that are dead: and that we haue no more cure and charge but of the lyuing. If they will deny that they doe not pray for the dead, I haue more iuſt and lawfull reaſon to deny vnto them, that they doe not pray for the lyuing: Except peraduenture they would ſay, that the Saintes were as cruell, as th •• which will ſuffer thoſe poore ſoules alwayes to burne, which do bring vnto them no money.

Hillarius.

Thou haſt put foorth very ſtrong reaſons.

But I will a little helpe Euſebius, to defende his cauſe, and will propounde and put forth reaſons againſt th •• e to which thou ſhalt haue much a doe to aunſwere. Thou ſpeakeſt of the ſaints, what wilt thou ſaye, if I proue vnto thée by liuely & ſtrong reaſons, that the Pope The Pope hath more povv r 〈◊〉 the ſa •• ts hath more power and authoritie then they?

Theophilus.

That ſhould be an other atter.

Hillarius.

I will make thy ſelfe confeſſe it. Who hath more power and authoritie, either God or the ſaints?

Theophilus.

There néedeth not an aunſwere vnto thy queſtion. For one may vnderſtande it without ſpeaking. There is not a Papiſt, but will aſely confeſſe, that there is not a ſaint, which hath vertue nor power, but ſo much as God will giue vnto him.

Hillarius.

I haue my meaninge, and I will nowe make thée ye de thy ſelfe vanquiſhed. For thou haſt alreadie confeſſed vnto me of thine owne prop •• mo th, & haſt co firmed my propoſition, the which I •• l yet better proue vnto thee, and I will conclu e all our diſpu a ion in a little ſillogiſme. And I will take for my Maior and for the firſt propoſition of my antecedent, that which thou haſt confeſſed vnto me. Take then my Syll giſme. God hath more power and authoritie then the Saintes. Nowe the Pope is God. •• go, the Pope hath more power Syllogiſm . and authoritie then the Saints. The Maior is alreadie confeſſed by thee. It reſteth now but for to pr ue the Minor, and the ſecond propoſition: and afterwards the conſequence and concluſion ſ albe cert ine and ••• uby able. Nowe but that the Pope is God in arth, thou ca ſt not d ny ſt, for many reaſons, the which I will not n we The pope is god •• more then god. ſh we forth. But I will do more. For I will pr ue, that he is not onely the God on earth, but which is more, in heauen and in hell, and that he doth make things which God neuer did make.

Theophilus.

By that accempt, the Pope then ſhall not haue not only more power then the Saints, but more then God himſelfe.

Hillarius.

It is very true, and thou thy ſelfe ſhalt Iudge it, prouided that thou do heare my reaſons. I will not alledge for confirmation of my theame, that which ſaint Paul hath written of Antechriſt, the man of ſinne, Antechriſt. 2. Theſſ. , 2. . the ſonne of perdition, which exalteth himſelfe aboue all that is called god, or which is worſhipped, ſo y he ſhal ſit as god in the Temple of God, and ſhew himſelfe as God: Notwithſtanding that that Prophecie and titles doe agrée meruaylouſly well to that God of whom we ſpeake. But I will procéede by an other way, the which ſhall ſerue for an expoſition of thoſe words of Saynt Paul.

Theophilus.

If thou doeſt as thou ſayſt the Pope and all the Papiſts ſhall be much bounde vnto thée. For they ſay onely that he is God in earth. Now if he be but God in the earth, he hath then nothing in heauen: And he muſt not open the gates of Paradiſe vnto the ſoules of Purgatory. And ſo I may ſerue my ſelfe with their publyque witneſſe, for to proue that which I ſaid of his keyes, which cannot be ſtretched foorth out of this earth.

Hillarius.

A man may eaſely reply thereon. For according to their doctrine, Purgatory is in the earth. Wherefore, ſith hat he is God in earth, he may well haue ſome power. There ſhould be an other reaſon, if Purgatory were The place of Purgatory. Plut. l . de fa ••• qu v ſitur in Luna . betweee the Moone and the earth, where Plutarch putteth it: except they will ſay that with the earth they doe alſo compare the ayre and all the other elements, making the Pope aſwell God in the ayre, water and fire, as in the earth: at the leaſt thou wilt not deny, but that he may wel haue the keyes of hell, for to leade thether the ſoules: and The keyes of hell. that he is the God of the ſame, if it be in the center of the earth, according to the common opinion of his Doctors. But for to come vnto the matter, thou which art a Theologian knoweſt, that there be two manner of wayes to The maners to knovv God xod. •• . 23 To ſee God bef re & 〈◊〉 ſee and know God. There is a manner to ſée him before: a •• a manner to ſee him behinde. To ſee him before, that is to ſay in his beeing, glory, and maieſtie, it is not giuen vnto mortall man. For he ſhall not be capable of ſuch viſion and knowledge. And therefore hée aunſwered vnto Moſes, who deſired to ſee his glory, that he ſhould not ſée o. •• . . 20 it before, but he would ſhew vnto him onely his hinder and backe parts. I doe vnderſtand and meane according to that which I haue learned of ſome Theologians, that to ſee and know the backe partes of God, that is to ſee and know him by his workes, by his effects, and in his creatures. For ſith that he is incomprehenſible vnto man in his ſubſtaunce, glory and maieſtie, the way and manner that he hath giuen vnto man for to know him, is this: to witte, by his word: by his workes: by his effects: and his creatures: with which man ought to content himſelfe without enquiring curiouſly of the nature and eſſence of God, the which we cannot comprehende. vvhat knovvledge of god is neceſſary for vs For we haue no neede to enquire what e is in himſelfe: but what he is towards vs: the which he hath manifeſted vnto vs chiefely by Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne: by the workes that hée hath done and made in him & by him, and that he doth alwaies. And ye maner of knowledge, after the maner of ye ſpeaking Argument A poſteriori of ye dialecticians & Logitians, may be called A poſteriori. I will then proue A poſteriori, the deite of ye Pope: that is to ſaye, by his workes and by his effects.

Thomas.

I will make heere a lyttle incident or ſtate. Thou haſt now altogether aſtemed mée, in hearing thée ſpeake. For thou art runne more déeper and profounder in Theologie, then euer Theophilus hath yet done, which neuertheleſſe is a better Diuine and Theologian then thou art.

Hillarius.

I haue alſo learned the greateſt parte of that which I know of Theologie of him. But I woulde alſo that thou ſhouldeſt know, that notwithſtanding that you doe accompt me but for a foole and a babler, yet I am notwithſtanding ſome thing wiſer then you doe thinke, but that wiſdome continueth not with mee much.

For I will now caſt my ſelfe into an other Theologie, contrary vnto this. Yet neuertheleſſe for to enter therevnto, and the better to declare the difference that is betwéene the diuine Theologie and the Theologie Papall, I will beginne my probation by the author tie of Ieremie ſaying: Iere. 1 . d. 20 Can a man make thoſe his gods? He rebuketh the Idolatrie of the people of Iſrael, and therefore he maketh that Man making gods. demaund, as of a thing impoſſible. For how can a man make gods, ſith that he cannot be made himſelfe, if God doe not make him? How ſhal he then make gods?

Yet neuertheleſſe the Pope attributeth that power vnto himſelfe. Wherefore it muſt néedes be that he be more then man: yea more then God. For we doe not read that God did euer make gods, to take God in his proper ſignification. For he alone will be God, and there can be no more but one alone: or otherwiſe he ſhould not be God. Except One onely god. Deut. 6. . 4 we will doe as Plato, to haue a great God, which maketh other lyttle gods. Therefore hath he ſayd that he is God, Pſa. 42. , &. 48 and that he will not giue his glory and power to none other. But the Pope taketh authoritie and power not onely to make Gods and Saints, but alſo to vnmake them agayne: the which I will proue vnto thée briefely. And without alleadgeing many examples for to auoyde proli itie, I will put foorth but one, by which one may iudge of the others. I will take Boniface the eight of whom Platin giueth this witnes, for y ep loge & concluſion of his legend, Boniface the . ſaying: In this ſort & maner died Boniface, he which enforced himſelf more to giue terror & fear vnto emperors, kings princes, nations & people, then to induce & lead thē in religion: & which endeuoured himſelf to giue & take away kingdomes: to chaſe & baniſh men & to bring them againe at his To take avvay and giue ingdome . pleaſure: hauing more greater thirſt and deſire of the gold, the which he got out of al parts, more then one could declare. Now this differeth not from that which the Decrées and Canons d witneſſe of the power. of the Pope, ſaying: That it aperteineth vnto him that he may giue, take away, chaunge tranſport the empires & kingd ms, principalites & ſ ig •• or es, as many amōg thē of long time haue practiſed, and ſhewed by effect, of whom the examples ſhalbe to long to rehearſe. Now we cannot deny, but that y ſame is an act proper vnto God alone, according to the witneſſe of Dan el 〈◊〉 , 3, 4. and of all the Prophets. Sith then that the pope vſurpeth vnto himſelfe, that is already a c rt •• ne witneſſe of his de tie: And without abandoning and forſaking Boniface, Plat in it. B ••• f 8 〈◊〉 ing of 〈◊〉 he himſelfe did not ſh w himſelfe ne lygent in that matter, agaynſt Philip king of Fraunce, of whom he demaunded the Arch •• a ry of Na bon, for to declare vnto him, that if he did not releaſe out of pr ſ n a Biſh ppe which by him was ſent thether, that his kingdome was co •••• a •• vnto the Church, and that the king was excommunicated and curſed: and that he would delyuer and abſolue all the Frenchmen of the oath and f a t •• that they made vnto the king.

Theophilus.

Behold there a goodly acte of deitie. But there is nothing which is more common vnto them then that.

H ll rius. I will yet declare vnto thée of others which are no leſſe aua leable, the which Plati •• rehearſeth in like maner. What do y words ſignifie y he ſayd vnto Prochet the Archbiſhop of Genes, when he did caſt down himſelfe Prochet Archbyshoppe of Genes. 〈◊〉 d •• . 〈◊〉 The aſ hes of pope Bo •• ace, Me eto homo. quia 〈◊〉 •• , & •• 〈◊〉 reuer •• r •• . G bell •• s. Memeto hom quia G bell ••• •• , & cum Gibell ••• 〈◊〉 re •• r 〈◊〉 . at his f •• te vpon Aſhwed •• ſday? Wher the Prieſts were accuſtomed to ſay: Remember man that thou art aſhes, and into aſhes thou ſhalt etourne agayne: he ſayde vnto him, in chaunging ſome words: Remember man that thou art a Gibell and with the Gibelli s thou ſhalt retourne into aſhes. And after that he had ſayd vnto him that, hée did not put the aſhes vpon the head as the cuſtome is, but did caſt them in his eyes, and depriued him of his Archbiſhoprick : Afterwardes he reſtored t to him agayne, when he did vnderſtand that the Card •• als were n t 〈◊〉 red and come from Genes. Thou doeſt héere ſ •• that hée maketh and vnmaketh Biſhops, as he lyſt, and ſpeaketh as a God: He maketh men to r t ••• n into aſhes, euen as from aſhes they came. And for to make that goodly act ſhew the fayrer, I wil rehearſe vnto the two others, which are yet more better witneſſes of the Popiſh d •• tie.

The firſt is of Stephen the ſixt, who wa ſo mad againſt The •• g nd Pope Formoſus, that after that he had taken his counſel, madneſſe •• Pope Stephen againſt o •• oſus. cauſed his body to be taken out of his tombe, afterwardes ſpoiled him of his pontifical & Popiſh apparel, and in ſtéed of them cauſed him to ée cladded with laye mens apparell, and did cut off the two fingers of the right hande, the which the Prieſtes vſed in their conſecration, afterwards, cauſed them to be caſt into the •• ud Tiber, and commaunded that he ſhould be buryed as a lay man, in the graue and burial o y lay men. Now conſider, f one Pope hath ſuch power ouer an other Pope, which neuertheleſſe is God, and not onely God, but can make God, and vnmakers of Goddes, which doe take power of him to make Gods, let vs thinke what power hée can haue ouer others. For in the time that Formoſus was Pope, he could not haue bene in the Popedome, nor in the order of Prieſthoode, but y hée did make Gods, of his two fingers which were cut off, and caſt into Tyber. Furthermore, how many Cardinals, Biſhops, Prieſtes, and Monkes were made Plat. in vit. Steph. . St ll leri or O e era d ſacerd tum dign tas, ſi digne & ſacerdo ta ••• er vixeris ntra quorum manus, velut in v ero virginis, filius d i incarnatur. Item. Iſte qui crea •• t me, ded t m hi crear ſ . Qui crea it e ſine me, creatur med ante me. The creatours of the Cr a our during his Popedome: which all of them were forgers, and makers of Gods? And yet neuertheleſſe they could not haue that power but of him. Wherefore one might rightly ſay of him: The Lord, the God of Gods. For there is not a Prieſt of how ſmal learning ſoeu r he be, which according to their doctrine, but dareth to attribute vnto himſelfe the power to make Gods. For which I will haue none other witneſſe, but their booke, intituled Stella clericorum, in which are written ſuch woordes: O howe venerable is the dignitie of the Prieſts, betwéene whoſe handes the ſonne of God is incarnate, as in the wombe of the Virgin: And afterwardes ſpeaking n the perſon of the Prieſt. Hee which hath created mée, hath giuen me power to create him. Hée which hath created me without mée, is created by the meanes of mée. Afterwardes, hée concludeth: ſith then that the Prieſt is of ſo greate a dignitie, that hée is the creator and maker of his creator, and of euery creature, it is not conuenient to looſe or damne him. They do finde it inconuenient that God ſhould damp e the prieſts, bicauſe that they are the creators Item Cum ergo tā e dignitatis ſit ſacerd •• quod creator ſit ſui creator •• , & tot •• creaturae, ipſū perdere vel damnare incō uenien eſt. Vnde Iſidorus. Sicut patrem interficere filiū impoſ bile eſt, ſie creatorem perdere creaturam in conuenient eſt. Sylla & Mar •• is. of hun. And yet neuertheleſſe the popes may wel condempne the popes, yea, out of this world, ſithence that they are before God their ſouereigne Iudge, which are not onely prieſts, but which is more, doe make the prieſts. Doeſt thou finde this ſtraunge Thomas?

Thomas.

To ſpeake the truth, thoſe Gods doe handle very euill the one the other.

Hillarius.

I doubt not but that which pope Stephen hath done vnto Formoſus, doth not ſéeme ſtraunge vnto thée. But pope Sergius the third hath done vnto him worſe.

Thomas.

Then that poore ſoule Formoſus was moſt vnhappy after his death. They haue done againſt the prouerbe, which forbiddeth to fight with the dead.

Hillarius.

Thou maiſt haue well ſayd it, if thou hadſt heard the hiſtory all out. The crueltie of L. Sylla againſt Marius was not ſo great. But I thincke neuertheleſſe but that thoſe popes haue takē their patron vpon him. For ſo did he cauſe Marius to be taken out of y earth after y he was dead to be auenged of him. And Sylla fearing that one ſhould not doe to him the like after he was dead, commaunded that his body ſhould be burned. For vntill his time the famelly of which he came off, accuſtomed to bury the bodyes of the dead, and had not as yet burned them as others did. But for to retourne vnto Sergius, thou muſt vnderſtande. Firſt, that he hath ſo reproued all the actes of Formoſus, that thoſe whom Formoſus did make prieſtes, ſhoulde retourne Plat. In vit . Serg. 3. Sergius & Fermeſus. againe to take their orders of him, iudging thoſe vnworthy to be prieſts whom Formoſus had made, if they did not the ſame. And not being content to haue done that diſhonour vnto Formoſus after his death, cauſed his body to be taken out of the ſepulchre againe, and did not onely cut off the fingers, or the hand, as Stephen his predeceſſor did, but did cut of his head as a malefactor, euen ſo as though he were a liue. Afterwardes did caſt the body into the ſtud yber, as vnworthy of buriall and humaine honour. hou canſt not now denie Theophilus, but that the popes haue power oth ouer the Gods, and ouer the quick and the dead. And for more greater confirmation hereoff, To excommunicate the dead. 2. 4. q. Sane. 2 they haue their Canons, which do giue vnto them power to iudge, not onely the quicke but alſo ouer the dead, and to excommunicate & accurſe the hereticks, but which to more, Pope Boniface hath better declared his diuine power, againſt S. Harman, whoſe body and bones he cauſed to bee Herman condempned by the Pope. Plat. in vit. Boniſ. 8. digged vp, whō thoſe of Ferrara haue honoured & accompted for a Saint already the ſpace of xx. yeares, & condempned him for an heretick, and burned him: As ſome ſay that they haue alſo done y like of wikchf, who neuertheles was of better learning thē his aduerſaries. But that ſame is alwaies common to all the papiſtical ſect, as de Roma the defiler of the faith hath well confirmed it thoſe yeares paſt, in two poore faithfull Chriſtians at Aix in Prouence. Hée hath ſtocked & impriſoned them ſo much, & hath ſo ſcorched and burned their feete & anckles within their bootes, which he filled with greaſe, and ſo putting to fire, that thoſe poore people & martyrs of Ieſus Chriſt could not tary the time to be altogether burned, but they died whileſt that he was abſent, & were buried by y hangmā in vnhallowed ground, bicauſe that they were accompted by them for heretickes. Yet neuertheleſſe that cruel tyrant de Roma could not be f oma the hler of the aith. contented wt all that, but was very angry bicauſe they buried them, & cauſed thē to dig thē vp againe, & to burne the being dead, ſith y he could not burne thē being aliue. On y contrary, euen as Boniface, hath cauſed this S. Ha man to be digged vp & to be condemned for an hereticke & bu ned Saint Herman. him, who neuertheleſſe was accōpted for a Saint he hath alſo canoniſed S. Lewes, who was of y bloud roial, who as Saint Levves. canonized. ſome men ſay, was profeſſed of y order of S. Fraunces. Alſo in like manner, pope, Felix & Gregory haue ordeined that one ſhould celebrate yearely, feaſts & ſacrifices in y memory of y martyrs. Now what other thing is y but to iudge thē ſaints & to deify them? But to y end y euery one do not attribute vnto themſelues the power to make Gods as the popes, & that euery one do not honor him y cōmeth in their fantaſy. Pope Alexander y third hath ordeined y no man ſhould be holden and accompted for a Saint, and that no diuine honour ſhoulde be attributed vnto him except that he were firſt inrolled among the Saintes and canoniſed, by the commaundement and ordinaunce of the Apoſtolical ſeate. That commaundement and degrée is written in the decretals, in the title of the reliques of Saints. Sith then that he canoniſeth and maketh Saintes, afterwards when they are made he vnmaketh them, it followeth then that he maketh and vnmaketh the Gods, & that he is Iudge both of the quicke and of the dead. For all that is God vnto man to whom he giueth the honour due vnto God. Now we cannot denie but that the ſuperſtitious and Idolaters do giue vnto their Saintes and vnto dead men, the onor Dead men the gods vnto Idolaters. due vnto God alone. Wherefore it followeth that they are their Gods, as well as to the Idolaters, thoſe whom they haue accompted for Gods, which neuertheleſſe were dead men, which haue ben canoniſed by the kings, Princes and Senates, and the cōmon errour of the people, euen as the Herodia. li. 4. pope & the ſuperſtitious do yet vſe at this day. Sith then that the pope maketh and vnmaketh ſuch Gods, which are dead men, and iudgeth, condempneth, and abſolueth them, it followeth then that he is the Iudge of the quicke & the dead: the which is alſo declared, by the example of y Emperour Henry y fourth, who was excōmunicated: afterwards was put into a cruel priſon, in y citie of Liege, by his proper Henricus. 4. and onely ſonne, in the which he was ſtrangled: and ſo as many do affirme, by the commaundement of his owne ſonne, who ſecretly ſent vnto him the hangman. And therfore for that he dyed excommunicated, hée was not buryed in the holy ground, vntil that he was abſolued and deliuered from his excōmunicating, after his death, by y pope: by y meanes of which abſolution, hée was caried to Spire, to the ſepulchre of his fathers. Wilt thou now deny, that the pope hath not more power then the Saintes, & that he is not greater Lord then Ieſus Chriſt, & aſmuch to be feared or rather more then God? For Ieſus Chriſt hath ſaid, & witneſſed ••• rely, that his kingdome is not of this world.

But the Pope will haue it both in this world and in the other. Furthermore, he admoniſheth vs not to feare thoſe Math, to, c. 28 which can but onely kill the body and do no more, but let vs feare him onely which is able to deſtroye both body and ſoule and to caſt them into hell. Sith then that the Pope attributeth vnto himſelfe ſuch power, that after that y he hath killed the bodyes, he perſecuteth ſtil the ſoules after the body is dead, and excommunicateth the dead and ſendeth them into hell, who will deny that he is not God, and that he may not vſe the authoritie of his keyes, as well towardes the dead, as towards the liuing? And that his buls and pardons doe not extend and ſtretch foorth vnto The vertue of the bulles and pardons. the dead and to the ſoules of Purgatory? As it appeareth by the doing of Pope Sixtus the fourth, Innocent the eight, Paſcale the fift, Caliſtus, and a great many other Popes which haue giuen full remiſſion by their buls and indulgences both to the quicke and the dead: And oftentimes for ſmall cauſes: As for to goe and viſite a certeine Chappell: to make a certeine voyage, and other like matters: But vpon condition, that he haue alwayes ready money. And the better to witneſſe that Popiſh deitie, Pope Boniface the eight would not haue his Iubile among the Iubile of the Pope. Plat in vit. Bemſ. 8. ubile of God. Leuit. 5, b. 11 Chriſtians, as God had it amonge the Iſraelites, but of an other ſort. For God ordeined the yeare of the great Iubile, from fiftie yeares to fiftie yeares, for to comfort the poore people: for to render and reſtore the wages and poſſeſſions vnto the poore that are in debt: for to deliuer the poore bondmen out of ſeruitude & bondage, and for to prefigure and foreſhew the yeare of grace, and the deliuerance & liberty which Ieſus Chriſt ought to bring vnto the Chriſtian people, according to the propheſie of Eſay and of the Luc, d. c, 16 Eſa. 61, a, 〈◊〉 other prophets. But the Pope Boniface in the yeare 1300 as if Ieſus Chriſt was not come, and that he had not by his comming declared vnto vs the yeare of y great Iubile, which ſhall indure vntill the ende of the worlde, & by the which we are affranchiſed frō the ſer tude of ſinne, death, diuell, and of hell, as putting himſelfe in the place of Ieſus Chriſt, hath conſtitute his Iubile, by the which he hath promiſed full remiſſion of ſinnes, vnto all thoſe which will come viſite at Rome the Chu ch of Saint Peter, and of Saint Paul: And hath commaunded that it ſhould be alwayes celebrated from an hundreth yeares vnto an hundreth yeares. For he feareth leaſt the olde cuſtome of the auncient Panims ſhould in ſucceſſion of time be altogether aboliſhed.

Thomas.

What cuſtome?

Hillarius.

They haue accuſtomed The playes of the panyms. to play in the honor of their Gods, ieſts, hiſtories and diuers other playes, which they do call ſeculer playes, bicauſe they do not celebrate it but from an hundreth to an Luds ſeculares. hundreth yeares. And therefore the Heraldes doe crye which declare and publiſh them: Come & ſée the games the which none of you ſhal neuer ſe any more.

Euſebius.

But Boniface hath done cleane contrary to that y thou ſayeſt. For he hath conſtituted the Iubile for to aboliſh the memory of thoſe Paniſh plaies.

Hillarius.

He hath chaunged playes into playes, and thoſe which profited him nothing at all he hath chaunged thē into others more profitable for him. But the other Popes which came afterwards, ſeing and perceiuing that that Iubile was too long for them, and that they could not haue ſo good a part for their pray, haue abrogated and made ſhorter the time. And therefore Pope Clement the ſixt hath remitted it frō 50. years to 50. years. Clement. 〈◊〉 . Plat. in vi . Clement. 6. Sextu B nauenture de •• ied. Alexander. 6 And after him, Pope Sextus the fourth, who hath dei ied and put among the ſaints. S. Bonauenture, hath agayne remitted it from xxv. yeares to xxv. years: and hath celebrated the firſt, in the yeare 1475. Afterwards, Alexander the ſixt, who was pope in the yeare 1500. following the example of Sextus, hath yet better enlarged that Iubile. For e hath not onely held & kept it at Rome, but hath ſo enlarged it thorowout all Chriſtendome, that there remayneth almoſt no citie, village, nor pariſh, but that he hath made them p rta ers of it.

Thomas.

They may then bée well called Gods liuetenaunts in earth. For ſith that they do it 〈◊〉 y ••• t, Ieſus Chriſt is well at leaſure. He ught to haue no great care, neither for the quicke nor for the dead, ſith that he hath ſuch liuetenauntes: we ſhall bée compelled The Pope the iudge of the quicke and of the dead. to chaunge our Credo, and whereas in the ſame we conſeſſe that he ſhall come from heauen for to be the Iudge of the quicke and the dead, we muſt giue that title vnto the Pope.

Hillarius,

A good Sophiſter wil eaſily abſolue thy doubt. For wee confeſſe that Ieſus Chriſt ſhall come at the time appointed. Wherefore they will conclude that Ieſus Chriſt is not yet really and in euery déede, Iudge of the quicke and of the dead, but that he ſhalbe: Or if thou wilt that I doe tell thée in their language: That he is Iudge, Non actu ſed habitu & aptitudine, but that the Pope is, not onely in power remote & future, but actu, & in potentra propinqua propinquiſsima: that is to ſay, of act, d ede, worke and power néere and preſent.

Thomas.

Beholve a goodly ſolution. In the meane while then, Ieſus Chriſt ſhal reſt, and the Pope ſhall doc all.

Theophilu .

I am abaſhed, if their buls, indulgences & pardons haue ſuch power. How Gregory hath paſſed them Gregory. 〈◊〉 . hath made no mentiō of the bulles for the dead. ouer, without making any mencion of them, when he comprehended all the meanes by which the liuing, might comfort the ſoules of purgatory. For hée did put a d declare nt foure, and touched not one word of the buls and pardons. But there is yet an other pointe, that which y doctor Hoſtienſis, which is of great reputatiō among the papiſes, Hoſtienſis contrary vnto the bul es. was not of opinion that the pope can doe ſuch thinges by his pardons and indulgences, but hath holden the contrary. ea, and the other doctors, as Bonauenture, Thomas of Scolaſtical doctours doubting of the bulles. Re ſperg. de mor. 〈◊〉 . ſer. d m. ſexa. Aquin, Alexander of Ales, Giles, D rand, Richard, Peter of Tarentaiſ , and many other like, hau had ſometime the thing in doubt, and haue onely diſputed of it, as of an opinion: afterwardes haue taken vpon them baldneſſe to define vpon it, and to giue their ſentence, as if they were wel aſſured of it. But if that which they do write of the buls and pardons be true, it is great felly for the papiſtes, to beſtowe any more any pennye, nor halfe pennye, neither for the funerals, nor for y maſſes, vigils, nor other ſuffrages for y dead, & that they ſhould reiect a other manner Bulles doing all thinges. of doings, for to hold themſelues onely to y buls & pardons, and to buy them for to draw the ſ ules from Purgatory. For it ſhould not coſt them ſo much, & ſhould haue ſooner diſpatched & ri away the poore ſoules from Purgatory. For if the Pope hath in his hands the treaſure of the The treaſor of the church, and the diſpenſation of the ſame. Alex. de A es. In. 4. Sent. Re ſperg. de mor. virt. ſerm. D m. in ſexa. Church, & hath the power, as Alexander de Ales witneſſeth, by the power of his keys, & by the meanes of his indulgences to diſtribute & beſtow them, as wel to the liuing as to the dead, the Papiſtes haue no more néede of any other thing. For euen as they haue by their Maſſes and other inu ntions, aboliſhed & put out the vertue of the death and paſſion, and of the ſacrifice of Ieſus Chriſt, ſo the Popes, which haue bene the authors of the buls and indulgences haue aboliſhed maſſes, ſuffrages, & al meritorious works, for the quicke & for the dead, which their predec ſſors haue inuented, without the word of God. And ſo by that meanes one ſhal haue no more néede, not onely of Ieſus Chriſt, but alſo of their maſſes, nor of all that that they can do: but it is ſufficient for al, to haue paper & parchment written, and buls ſigned & ſealed with waxe or with lead. ut which is more, I am very much abaſhed, how they dare to attribute ſo much power ouer y dead, to their buls, keys & abſolutiōs, ſith that the Pope Gelaſius and their decre als & Canons doe witneſſe and openly confeſſe, that the church can bind and vnbinde thoſe y be liuing, & not the dead: and that w e doe not read, that the ſame was euer cōmaunded or done, not of Ieſus Chriſt himſelfe, which al ne hath the power to do that. But hath ſaid namely vnto S. Peter: Al that that thou ſhalt binde or vnbinde vpon the earth, ſhalbe bound in heauē. He hath ſaid namely, vpon earth. For he hath neuer The povver of y e es limi ted in this world. 24 q. 2 ca. Quod aut. & le atur. Mat, 16. c 19 ſayd, that he that ſhalbe dead being bound ſhalbe vnb und. Beholde the very wordes of the Canons, which doe well way the wordes of Ieſus Chriſt, and doe confirme y that I haue ſaid, of the authoritie of the keyes, at the leaſt in this place: in which is ſaid very plainely, that by thoſe words of the goſpell is declared, that none can be excommunicated, or abſolued a ter he is dead. For he ſaith: That which thou ſhalt binde or vnbinde vppon earth. He ſayth not vnder the earth, declaring that we may binde and vn binde thoſe that be alyue, for y diuerſitie of their merits but we cannot giue ſentence of the dead. Beholde the queſtion that Gratian propounded, & the reſolution in his owne words.

Thomas.

How can that agrée with that which hath 24. q 2. ca. Sane. bene alreadie alleadged of the very Canons, which doe giue power to excommunicate the Hereticks after they be dead. It muſt néeds be that the canons be contrary the Contrarietie of the Canons. one vnto the other.

Theophilus.

That is not newe nor rare with them. But the gloſers doe excuſe that by their interpretacions and exceptions. I doe not denye, but that we may condempne To excommunicate the doctrine of ye dead. dempne after that one is deade the falſe doctrine that a man and an Hereticke ſhall holde during his lyfe, if then it be manifeſted, euen as it might bée done by ſome of them of whom they doe alleadge the examples, for to aduertiſe the Churches, to the ende that the faythfull might the better kéepe themſelues. But to excommunicate and curſe the perſons, I knowe or ſée not how that can bée bo ne with all by the holy Scripture, ith that they are before theyr Iudge, vnto whome the Angells did ſende the Diuell, as is written of Michael the Archangell, who The angells durſt no curſe the diuell. 〈◊〉 piſt. Iud. b. 9 diſputing with the Diuell about the body of Mo es, durſt not vſe rayling iudgement agaynſt him, but ſaid vnto him: The Lord rebuke thée: Yet neuertheleſſe thoſe heere dare to enterpriſe more agaynſt men both quick and dead, then the Angells durſt agaynſt the Diuels: although that they holde them already for moſt certe •• e to be condemp •• ed of God.

Hillarius.

I am yet abaſhed of one thing. If the Pope haue ſuch power to giue full remiſſion from payne and fault by his bulles & moulgences, aſwell for the quick as for the ſoules of the dead, I meruayle that hée hath not already long ſithence made empti and cleanſed Purgatory: and that he hath not fetched out all the ſoules, ſith that he giueth ſo many pardons dayly and hourely, and not only he, but al is Cardinals, biſhops, prieſts & monks.

Euſebius.

In. 4 ſent. Re ſ erg. de m r. v r. ſer. d m. 〈◊〉 . There is a goodly aunſwere vnto that queſtion. The firſt is, for that there goeth euery day new into Purgatory. The other is, euen as Saint Thomas & ſaint Bonauenture doe aunſwere vnto that obiection, that it is very requiſite and needefull, before that the indulgence and pardon be auayleable, that it haue reaſonable cauſe: The diſpenſatiō of the treaſure of the Church. and that the diſpenſation of the goods and treaſure of ye church (in which are aſſembled and compriſed al the merits of Ieſus Chriſt & all the merits of al the Saints and Saintes, which euer were) ſhould be done with moderation and diſcreſſion: Vnto vvhome the pardons do profyt. or otherwiſe god will not accept it. And therefor the pardons & indulgences are not giuen vnto any perſon, eyther for him or for any other, be he quicke or dead, but by reaſon of ſome good worke that he hath done, eyther for him ſelfe, or in the name of thoſe for whome the pardon is giuen. And therefore is lymitted the power of all thoſe which haue the charge to giue them, & al do know, be they Cardinals, Archbiſhops, Biſhops, Abbots, Moonks or Prieſts, The povver to giue pardons lymitted. how many they may giue euery day: except the Pope, which hath not his power limitted, except he vſe thē vnreaſonably, ye pardōs thē yt he wil giue, ſhal not be auaileable wt god.

Hillarius.

I vnderſtand what thou wouldeſt ſay. The pope hath heaped vp together all ye merits of Ieſus Chriſt, of the patriarchs, prophets, Apos;tles, Martirs, confeſſors, virgins, ſaints & ſaintes of paradiſe, & of al the Chriſtian Church in a treaſure, and a garner of which he alone hath the keyes and can open or ſhut, & diſtribute little or much, when he will and as it pleaſeth him. The great Lockyer or lockſmyth. For he is the great lockeſimth. But al the others are but as his ſeruaunts, of whom he lymitteth the power and the office of euery one, in ſuch ſort, that they cannot diſtribute, but that that he hath delyuered vnto them, and of whom they haue the keyes. Wherefore if it behoueth that hée haue in ye treaſury & garner a great many of ſeuerall chā bers and cabins, of which many muſt haue the keyes euery one his owne, for to depart and beſtow that whereoff he hath the diſpenſation, without daring to touche the reſt, except that ſometimes, thoſe lyttle varlets and lockeſmithes doe picke the locke and the dore of the great lokſmith Picke lockes. and great treaſurer, he knowing nothing thereoff, and that he be not therewithall content: although that vnder his name and title, they ſtreth foorth their power, as ſéemeth good vnto them, and doe forge keyes, bulles and pardons as many as they lyſt, and alwaies at the coſts of the poore people. Now the great lockeſmith hath no lymit, but that he hath alwaies reaſonable cauſe, for to giue buls and pardons as many as one woulde, ſo that money doe come: or otherwiſe he will ſuffer the poore ſoules to be roſted and tormented in Purgatory, as long as the world ſhall continue, for want of one leafe of paper or parchment with a lyttle waxe and leade. As concerning the others which haue the daies limitted that they may giue pardons, I haue a certeine doubt, the which I would yt I were reſolued of it by thée Euſebius. For ſith yt the one hath power to giue two or thrée thouſand, an other two or thrée hundreth, an other an hundreth fiftie, fortie, thirtie or twentie, either more or leſſe. I would gladly know of thée what Clockes of Purgatory. horologes & clocks, & what quadrans they haue in purgary, for to meaſure thoſe dayes there. For ſith that there is no ſun, moone nor ſtars, what daies & what yeres can they haue? For the time is taken of the morning, of the heauen & of ye courſe of ye ſunne. But thoſe which are in purgatory, haue nothing of al this: Wherfore I cannot comprehend what yeres, what months, dayes & houres they can haue: & whether they be very long or ſhort. Example of the long dayes in Purgatory. As far as I can imagine, by an exāple which Antonius Florentin reciteth in his ſum, ye daies ought ther to be meruailous lōg. For he ſaith, that an Angell caryed thether a ſoule of a man, to whome hée promiſed, that it ſhoulde tary there but an houre. And as ſoone as that Angell did come agayne to ſee that ſoule, it did begin to crye out vpon him, and to call him lyer, deceiuer and traytor.

Thomas.

To what purpoſe?

Hillarius.

It ſayd vnto him: Thou haſt promiſed me, that I ſhould be but an houre and I haue bene heere already more then an hundreth yeres. But the Angel aunſwered vnto him: There wanteth a great many my friende. For thou haſt not yet taryed a quarter of an houre.

Wherefore I doe conclude, that it muſt needes be that the dayes and yeares be there very long, ſith that a quarter of an houre is there compared to a hundreth or thouſande yeares of ours: or els that the fire is there meruaylous hotte, and that the time continueth long to the poore ſoules.

Euſebius.

I will tell thée as touching the pardons, it hath bene long time ſithence, that many people doe know that there is in them great abuſes. Wherefore I will not much breake my braynes to maynteine them.

Theophilus,

I doe alſo iudge it loſt time to ſpeake of ſuch abuſe, if I did not ſée yt ſithence ye time of Gregory, ſo many people to haue bene abuſed, & that ſo many great Doctors, which are moſt eſtéemed amongſt the Sophiſters and Schoolemen, haue written of it, and haue confirmed it ſo aſſuredly.

Hillarius.

The povver of the deal ouer the Popes I know that thou doeſt beginne already Euſebius, to agree with vs. I beléeue that thou art of this opinion, that the Pope ought to let the dead reſt, without reigning ouer them, ſith that they haue more power ouer the Pope, then the Pope ouer them: as I will proue it by an example taken from the Autentike booke, which is intituled the conformities of Saint Fraunces. For I haue neuer read that the Pope hath rayſed to lyfe any dead perſon, and that he came to aunſwere before him, of all thoſe whom he hath cyted, condempned, abſolued, or excommunicated. But that booke doth witneſſe manifeſtly that Fryer Walter a Cordelier and Biſhop of Poytiers, hath Pope Clement the 〈◊〉 by Fryer VValter being dead. cauſed to be cyted after his death by a Cedule, Pope Clement the firt, for to appeare before the eternall Iudge, bicauſe that he had vniuſtly depoſed him from his office.

Thomas.

And did the Pope appeare there by vertue of that Cytacion?

Hillarius.

If the booke lye not, that was no ieſt. For at the verye ſame daye which was preſcribed vnto him, the Pope dyed of a ſodeyne death, and departed ſodeinely for to goe and aunſwere there. What ſayeſt thou by this Euſebius? If this hiſtory be falſe, it is a great diſhonor for the Cardeliers, who do make great accompt of that booke, and doe holde it to be very pretious among them, as a relicke, and reuelation. And for the Pope alſo which hath confirmed the order of ſaint Fraunces, and of the foure Mendicants. I know not what good meanes we may héere finde for to maynteine that buylding, and The foundaciō of the order of the Mendicāts. the honour and authoritie both of the one and of the other. For ſith that the Pope hath confirmed the order of Saint Fraunces, the order of ſaint Fraunces is buylded and ſtaied vppon the Pope, wherefore when the Pope ſhall fall, which is the ſtone and foundation of that Church and of that buylding, alſo ſhall fall the buylding, the order and the rule of ye Mendicants. Now we cannot deny, but yt example doth ruinate & ouerthrow ye Pope & all his power. I do not diſpute whether yt the hiſtory be true or falſe. For I beléeue that is as true as it is true yt the Pope is God, & ſaint Fraunces conformable & agréeing to Ieſus Chriſt, as yt booke ful of blaſphemies enforceth it ſelfe to proue it. But I conſider onely, that ſith that the Cordeliers haue written ſuch an hiſtory, & do maynteine it by their bookes, that they doe abate aſmuch the authoritie and power of the Pope, as the Pope doth confirme their rule and order. For how can this witneſſe agrée, with this propoſition? The Pope cannot erre? And with the expoſition which Eccius and his lyke doe make of thoſe words? Thou arte Peter and vppon that rocke I will buylde my congregation, and the gates of hell ſhall not preuayle agaynſt it.

If the Pope be that rocke or ſtone, and that ſtone is fallen, it muſt néedes be that all the Popiſh church doe fall with it, and the orders of the foure Mendicants, which are his foure Euangelyſts, and his principall pillers. And The Popes euangeliſtes. ſo by that meanes the Cordeliers whome the Pope hath made, doe vnmake the Pope, which hath made them, and the creature vnmaketh his creator, and the creator his creatures.

Theophilus.

It chaunced to them, as to the Madianits, The papiſtical Madianites. Iudg 7, g. 2. which deſtroyed themſelues the one the other, with their owne weapons, when they heard the ſound of the trompets, and pitchers of the army of Gedeon, and ſaw the lyght of his torches. So in lyke manner ſith that Ieſus Chriſt, our true Gedeon, hath put the trompets of his goſpell. The true Gedeō into the handes of his lyttle army, the which, by vertue of his holy ſpirite, he maketh to ſounde euen vnto the endes of the worlde, and cauſeth the lyght of his worde and goſpell to ſhine thorow out the earth, we ought not to doubt, but that all thoſe Madianits ſhal be in ſhort time diſcouraged and diſcom ited, according to the Prophecie of Eſay: notwithſtanding that the flocke and company of Eſa. 9. 〈◊〉 Ieſus Chriſt be lyttle. For it is puiſſant inough by vertue of their capitayne: beſides that they themſelues ſhall bée diſcomfited with their owne ſwerde, and ſhall fall into ruine, with their Purgatory which hath but a lyttle hold or ſtay except thou do bring vnto it agayne ſome ſtone and morter for to repaire and amende it.

Euſebius.

I will employ all the meanes or wayes that I can finde out. And therefore marke and regard how thou ſhalt ryd and diſcharge thy ſelfe of that which is written in Saint Luke. where Ieſus Chriſt ſaith: The ſeruaunt The place of Saint Luc. 12 〈◊〉 . 47. that knoweth his maſters will and prepareth net himſelfe neyther did according to his will, ſhall bée beaten with many ſtripes: But he that knew not his maſters will, and yet did committe many things worthy of ſtripes, ſhal be beaten with few ſtripes. Now it is euen ſo, that in hell there is neither little nor much. For the paynes there are infinite. And therefore it is called the hell fire, the ertreame darkenes. Wherefore it followeth that that pathe Mat 22 b. 17 of which is heere ſpoken off, cannot be vnderſtanded but of the ſame of Purgatory, in which may be more or leſſe.

Theophilus.

There ſhould be no hell if thou wilt ſo interprete the ſcripture. What opinion haſt thou of thoſe The iudgement of the Sodomits and Gomorriās Genoſ. 19. c. 24. of Sodome and Gomorrha: Doeſt thou thinke that they be in hell or in Purgatory?

Euſebius.

I beleeue that they are in hell: ſith that their iniquitie hath bene ſo great, that it muſt needes bee that God hath conſumed them, thorowe the fire of his iudgement.

Theophilus.

If there were founde among them ſome, who féelyng the iudgement of God vppon them, haue remembred the preaching & admonitions which Loth made vnto them by the word of god, and which haue had repentaunce and were ſory for their ſinnes, in requiring mercie of God with a good heart and good affection in the middeſt of the fire: I will not maynteine that God hath refuſed vnto them grace and mercie. For he hath promiſed vnto E e h. 18, 〈◊〉 . 2 the ſinner, as often as with a good heart he ſhall retourne vnto him. Now if there be any ſuch among them, I leaue that to the iudgement of God, who knoweth all things and thoſe that are his. For he puniſheth ſometimes ſome 2. Timo . 2. c. 1 . men with corporall paynes, with the reprobate, the which notwithwanding he condempneth not with them to eternall dampnation, he puniſheth them corporally, as he chaſtiſeth and correcteth his elect by aff ictions, eyther bicauſe The punishmēt of ye elect with the reprobate. that they haue bene neglygent in rebuking the wicked and vicious: or els that they haue giuen ſome conſent vnto their vices, and haue not hadde in recommendation the honour of GOD as they ought to haue had.

But bicauſe that they haue not abidden and continued hard hearted, & haue not ſinned againſt the holy Ghoſt, the Lord mittigateth their payne, and is contented to chaſtice and correct them corporally, for to humble them, to make them to acknowledge their faulte, and for to bée an example vnto others: As the Apoſtle witneſſeth of the Corinthians, who for the diſpiſing of the Supper of Ieſus Chriſt, were chaſtiſed of God with diſeaſes and death. Such might be the kindred of Loth. For it is not lyke to be true that Loth woulde haue taken allyaunce The kindred of Loth. with them, if they had ben altogether as abhominable as the others of the citie. Yet neuertheles bicauſe they were vnbeleeuing & of incredulytie, and that they lyghtly regarded all things, they were puniſhed with the others, for to giue others to vnderſtande, that it is not good to dwell among the wicked and to ſupport their iniquitie. Yet neuertheleſſe I leaue the ſame to the iudgement of God, who knoweth the hearts. But I onely ſpeake this to the ende we doée not iudge raſhly of his ſecrets and iudgements, & except we haue expreſſe reuelation: but thoſe that haue perſeuered in ſuch a heart and ſuch affection as they had, when they would haue done vyolence vnto Loth, and to his gueſts which he had receyued into his houſe, and are dead in that wicked minde, I doubt not but that they are periſhed. For we haue the expreſſe word of god, of the condempnation of ſuch perſons. For I doubt not that of thoſe Ieſus Chriſt ſpeaketh not, when hée ſpake vnto his Apoſtles, of thoſe which re ected the preaching of the Goſpell: Verely I ſay vnto you, that thoſe of Sodoma Math. 10. b. 15 and Gomorrha ſhall be handeled more eaſely in the day of Iudgemet then thoſe there. In what place ſhall be that handlyng? That ſhall not be in Paradiſe. For where there is no payne, there néedeth no mitigation. Neyther ſhall it be in Purgatory: For according to your owne doctrine, it ſhall then ceaſe. It muſt néedes be then in hell.

Euſebius.

But how can that be in hell, ſith that the paine there is infinite.

Theophilus.

Thou muſt vnderſtande, that there is not ſo lyttle a payne, which is not infinite and importable, vnto him which is forſaken of God, but yet neuertheleſſe God may and can make his iudgement, his wrath and indignation to be felt vnto ſome more then to other ſome. But it followeth not therefore, but that all men are conſtrained to cary it, and but that it is a burthen importable to all men. Therefore it is ſo often written, that thoſe which ſhal haue moſt ſinned ſhal be moſt puniſhed. Now thoſe vnto whome God hath giuen more fauour and grace, and hath giuen more knowledge of his wil, then the others, doe ſinne moſt griuouſly. For they declare a more greater ingratitude, malice and ſtubberneſſe, & haue leſſe excuſe. But it followeth not therefore, that the ignorance and negligence doth excuſe the others, but that they Ignorance doth excuſe none. haue their part, Ieſus Chriſt manaſeth with a more grieuouſer iudgement thoſe which ſhall reiect his Goſpell bicauſe that God hath ſhewed vnto them more grace and fauour, then vnto the Sodomites and Gomorrians. Wherfore they doe render themſelues more culpable and inexcuſable. But although that the Goſpell hath not bene preached ſo cléerely and plainly vnto the Sodomites & Gomorians, as vnto vs, yet Ieſus Chriſt doth not excuſe them therefore altogether, nor abſolueth them of the iudgement of God. But for to amplyfie the ingratitude & malice of Punishment vppon thoſe vvhich do reiect the goſpell. thoſe which reiect the benediction and bleſſing of God, he compareth them to the moſt execrableſt that euer were vpon the earth. Not for to iuſtifie the others, but the better to confound thoſe héere, demonſtrating vnto thē that their iniquitie is ſo abhominable, that God condempneth thom whiche maye bée accompted and taken for good men, in compariſon of theſe: not that they are, but in compariſon of the exceſſiue iniquitie of thoſe héere. After this manner we muſt vnderſtand that place of S. Luke, without dreaming out a Purgatorye. For the paine of which Ieſus Chriſt ſpeaketh off, maye bée héere in this worlde: or at the daye of iudgement: or in hell, as the ſame of the Sodomites, Gomorrians and their lyke. Or thou ſhalt bée conſtrayned to put into Pargatorye all the wicked and reprobate, which haue bene ſithence the beginning of the worlde. For the Lorde doth alwayes menace and threaten with more grieuous paine the ſucceſſors ſors, then the predeceſſors, bicauſe that they doe agrauate alwayes more & more the iudgement of God vppon them, bicauſe that the light is more greater reuealed vnto them, and that they haue more examples of the iudgements of God, yt which they deſpiſe: & do yéeld themſelues culpable, not onely of their wickedneſſé, but alſo of the ſinnes of their fathers and predeceſſors, allowing them by their doings.

Thomas.

The ſleepers and dreamers may take from that place an argument for to proue their dreames, bicauſe it ſéemeth by the words of Ieſus Chriſt, that the paine of the Sodomits and Gomorrians is differred vntill the day of iudgement. But thou haſt already ſhortned and cut off the way for them, in declaring vnto vs bow the iudgement is already done, and how it is yet to doe.

Theophilus.

Theſe two places ought very well to incitate and ſtirre vs forward to follow veritie and to ſeke it. For ignoraunce exempteth vs not from the iudgement of God, the which commeth of our fault, chiefely in theſe dayes, that the Goſpell is ſo cléerely reuealed vnto vs.

Euſebius.

Therefore I deſire to know and well vnderſtād all thoſe places which might yet trouble my braines, amonge which there is one in the actes of the Apoſtles, which ſome men doe interprete for the Purgatory. It is there written, that God hath raiſed vp Ieſus Chriſt, and 〈◊〉 place of the Act. 1. d. 4 〈◊〉 ſ d the ſorrowes of Hell. Nowe he hath not looſed the ſorrowes of the hell fire or gebenne, which are eternall: nor of the Limbe. For there is to be had ioy and conſolation. It followeth then, that the ſame ought to bée vnderſtanded of the ſorrowes of Purgatory. As much may we ſay of many like places which are in the Pſalmes, as theſe héere, vnto which Dauid ſaid: The ſorrowes of hell compaſſed 〈◊◊◊〉 e. Then Lord haſt brought my ſoule out of hell. God ſhall deliuer my ſoule from the power of hell, when 〈◊◊◊〉 Pſa 〈◊◊◊◊◊〉 , 3 he 〈◊◊〉 . And Iob ſayth in like manner: O y thou wa ideſt eepe mée and hide mée in the hell, vntyll thy wrath ere ſtilled: and to appointe me a time, wherein thou mighteſt remember mée? what other hel can we héere vnderſtand, then Purgatory?

Theophilus.

I am abaſhed of ye great ignorance of ſuch interpreters of the ſcripture. For firſt, in ye place of the acts, it is not in ye Gréeke copies the ſorrowes of hel, and it was not ſo written of S. Luke. For he hath ſayd, the ſorrowes of death, and not of hell: although that in your common tranſlation it is written as thou ſayeſt. But although it were ſo, all ſhoulde come to one ende. For the text doth plainely declare, that Saint Peter ſpeaketh in that Sermon of the reſurrection of Ieſus Chriſt, and that hée himſelfe expoundeth hell, for the tribulations, extreme ſorrowes, the death, the pit, the ſepulchre, the low places, and the eſtate and condition of the dead, from which Ieſus Chriſt is raiſed. He maketh there no mencion of the Limbe, of Purgatory, nor of the gehenne or hell fire. That ſame ſolution ſufficeth for all the other places by thée alledged. For that is very common in the Scripture, to take hell in that ſignification, as it appeareth by thoſe places the which thou baſt put foorth. For how many times ſaith the Prophet in thoſe ſame places? The ſighings of the dead haue enuironed me. I haue called vpō thée in my trouble. I haue Pſal, 2 . 30, 49 cryed vnto thée and thou haſt healed mée. Thou haſt deliuered mee from thoſe that goe down into the pit. He meaneth none other thing by thoſe woords, but that he ſetteth foorth and declareth that hell from which he was deliuered. Wherefore I am greatly aſhamed, both of Eccius and of Cochleus, for that they were not aſhamed, to alledge ſuch places for to mainteine their Purgatory.

Euſebius.

Whatſoeuer thou ſayeſt, it ſeemeth neuertheleſſe The place of the 1. Cor. 15 To b baptiſed for the dead that already in the time of Saint Paul, the Chriſtians were of an opinion, that the liuinge might giue ſome ayde vnto the deade, by that that hée writeth of thoſe which did baptiſe themſelues for the dead. Nowe that could not profite, neither thoſe which were in Paradiſe, nor thoſe which were in hell. It muſt be then that it profiteth thoſe of Purgatory.

Theophilus.

Thou oughteſt alreadye to haue vnderſtanded by that which hath bene ſayde of that place, that it can ſerue nothing at all for Purgatory. I doe not denye vnto thée, but that in the time of the Apoſtles, there were ſuffrages and prayers for the dead. But that was among the Panims and Idolaters, as it hath bene already very amply entreated off amongeſt vs. And doubte not, but that there remayneth ſome roote of ſuch ſuperſtition in ſome of thoſe which are called Chriſtians. But if it were ſo as thou doeſt vnderſtande it, it followeth not therefore that Sainct Paul alloweth that manner of dooing: As the auncient Doctors themſelues dooe witneſſe it, namely Sainct Ambroſe. For I may well take Ambro. in 1. Cor. 15. an argument againſt a Papiſt (which will denye vnto mée the reſurrection, or immortalitie of the ſoules) with their manner of dooings towardes the dead, for to beate him with his owne ſwoorde, and yet I will not allow neuertheleſſe their ſuperſtition. But it is not néedfull to ſtay any more vpon that place, ſith that I haue already declared vnto thée, howe the auncientes haue vnderſtanded it, and howe it is alſo expounded by others. For whatſoeuer expoſition that thou maiſt giue vnto it, it cannot ſerue for thy purpoſe. And there was neuer any of the auncientes, which hath dreamed, that the ſame was done bicauſe of Purgatorye. For Epiphanius witneſſeth, Epipha. li. 1 Tom. 2. hereſ. 18. that thoſe which baptiſed themſelues for the dead, which were dead before that they had receiued Baptiſme, did it to that ende that when they ſhoulde riſe againe in the reſurrection, they ſhoulde not bée puniſhed for that they haue not bene baptiſed in this worlde. He ſayth that ſuch was their opinion. Wherefore it is eaſily to knowe, that they did not thinke of Purgatory.

Hée toucheth yet an other expoſition of that place, the which hée alloweth. But yet it maketh leſſe for thée. To conclude, that place ſerueth as much for your broylers of ſoules for to proue your Purgatory, as for the Marcioniſtes heretickes, who as witneſſeth Theophilactus, doe drawe them to their purpoſe, for to proue their Theophilact. 〈◊〉 , Cor. 15 baptiſme, which they receiue for the dead. For when any dyed among them without baptiſme, they had a cuſtome, that one that was a liue ſhould enter within the béere of the dead, or where the dead was layde. Afterwards they did come vnto the béere and demaunded of the dead, if he will be baptiſed? Then the liue man, which was there hid, in a low place vnder the béere, aunſwered yt he would. Wherefore they dyd Baptiſe him in ſtéede of the dead.

Hillarius.

They had yet more appearance, thē our Biſhops & Prieſts which baptiſed the bels.

Euſebius.

If thoſe two arguments doe ſéeme vnto thée weake and feeble, I will alldge vnto thée a ſtronger. When S. Paul did write vnto The place of the Phil, 2, b. 9 the Philippians, that vnto Ieſus Chriſt is giuen a name aboue all names, yt in the name of Ieſus, ſhould euery knée boow, both of things in heauen & things in earth, & things vnder ye earth. What vnderſtādeth he by thoſe which vnder the earth do boow their knées vnto Ieſus Chriſt? That cannot be vnderſtanded of the diuels. For they haue not accuſtomed to honour God, nor the damned alſo. For their office is rather to blaſpheme him. It muſt needes be then that they be in Purgatory which do boow the knée vnto Ieſus Chriſt, which do honour him, or otherwiſe ye words of S. Paul ſhould not be true.

Theophilus.

If by boowing the To bovve the knee. knée, S. Paul did vnderſtande the true diuine ſeruice, the true inuocation, and the true honour which the elect doo owe vnto God, ther ſhould be ſome reaſon & appearance in the argument. But S. Paul by that manner of ſpeaking, The ſeignyary of Ieſus Chriſt. meaneth none other thing by boowing the knée, but that to Ieſus Chriſt is giuen ſuch domination, that it is neceſſary that euery creature bée ſubiect vnto him, and obeye him, and acknowledge him to bee Iudge and Lorde: the which the good and the elect dowillingly and with a good heart: the wicked and reprebate, in ſpite of their téeth. But they are neuertheleſſe campelled. For they cannot reſiſt the vertue and power of Ieſus Chriſt, which maketh his enimies his footſtoole. But the Apoſtle vſeth ſuch Pſal. 110. . 1 manner of ſpeaking, for to followe the ſtile of the Prophetes, and to declere vnto vs that which the Lord hath ſayde by I ſay: I doe liue ſayth the Lord: Euery knee ſhal Pſa. 45. d. 23. boowe vnto mee. The which the Apoſtle expoundeth by other woords, ſaying: wee ſhall be all brought before the iudgement ſcate of Chriſt. Afterwardes hee confirmeth om. 14 b. 10 that propoſition by the very wordes of the Prophet, declaring that all that commeth to one effect. For bicauſe that the good and euill are compelled to render obedience vnto their Lordes, and that they doe declare commonly their ſubiection and humilitie in boowing the knée and dooing reuerence before their Lorde, the Scripture vſeth ſuch manner of ſpeakinge for to ſignifie the obedience, reuerence and ſubiection, that euery creature muſt ſhe we towardes God. Although that the ſame may bée done diuerſe wayes either by bowing the knées, and without bewing the knées. For the Angells and the ſoules can no better boowe their knees then the Diuels: ſith that all of thē haue no knées: which cannot be but to bodies: if we doe not vnderſtande any otherwiſe thoſe figures of ſpeaking. And therefore there is no inconuenience, to vnderſtande by thoſe which do boow the knees vnder the earth, the Diuels themſelues with all the reprobate, which ſhall all appeare before the iudgement ſeate of Chriſt, and ſhall be cōpelled to acknowledge him to be their Iudge, in great VVho do bow the knees vnder the rch. horrour and feare, as they haue already ſhewed by experience, in the time that Ieſus Chriſt was yet in his mortall body & paſſible, before that he was riſen againe. For the wicked ſpirites were conſtrayned to obey him, and to confeſſe him to be Chriſt and to pray vnto him: Although that it was againſt their wills, ſaying: O Ieſu thou ſonne of God, what haue wee to do wt thee? Art thou come hether 〈◊〉 d. 10. Mar. 1 24 to torment vs before the time be come? We know that thou art the holy eue of God: And they beſought him, ſaying: If thou caſt vs out, ſuffer vs to goe our way into The prayer of the 〈◊〉 the herd of ſwine. In the very ſame manner as they are compelled to entreate & beſeech Ieſus Chriſt, & to confeſſe him, ſo ſhall they be compelled to boow the knee vnto him. And if they did that vnto him whileſt yt he was yet mortal & paſſible, what ſhal they do now, ſith yt he ſitteth immortal & glorious at the right hand of God his father? And if they doe beſéech or pray to Ieſus Chriſt, may they not as well boow ye knee vnto him? In ye ſence the auncients haue vnderſtāded, & Theophilactus expoūdeth it expreſly of ye diuels, Theophi. in Epiſt. phi . 2. which ſhalbe conſtrained to giue glory & honour vnto Ieſus Chriſt.

Euſebius.

If thou haſt eſcaped yt place, I beleeue, yt thou ſhalt not eſcape ſo eaſily of the like, written in ye Apocalipſe, where it is ſayd: And all ye creatures which are in heauen and on the earth, & vnder the earth, & in the The place of the Apoc. 5. 〈◊〉 13 ſea, and al that are in them heard I, ſaying: bleſſing, he nor, glory & power be vnto him that ſitteth vpon the ſeate, and The prayſe geuen to God of all creatures. vnto the lambe for euermore. Thou canſt not héere ſay but that it is ſpoken of ye true praiſe & of the true honor which is due vnto God, the which ye diuels, nor the reprobate cannot giue vnto him. And yet neuertheles it is here ſaid, that there be creatures vnder ye earth, which do giue vnto him that praiſe, which can be none other thē the ſoules of purgatory,

Theophilus.

You do lacke but the leg of a Fly for to build your arguments. Doeſt thou not ſee yt the holy Ghoſt vſeth an enumeration, by the which he witneſſeth, yt all creatures in al places do praiſe their creator, & Ieſus Chriſt the true lambe, by whō all is reſtored? But being not contēted to vſe an vniuerſal propoſition, he alſo woult by enumeratiō of creatures in perticuler, conclude yt in general, bicauſe that that manner of ſpeaking doth better expreſſe the thing, & doth amplifie better the glory of God, declaring yt there is not an element, nor any place where God is not praiſed and magnified, frō the higheſt part of heauen vnto ye bottom of ye earth & from euery part of the world. For as he writeth, that the heauens declare ye glory of God, & the firmament ſheweth foorth his handy works. Alſo there is not a creature whatſoeuer it bee, neither Pſal. 19. a. 〈◊〉 in Heauen nor in the ayre, nor in the water, nor in the earth, nor vnder the earth, not ſo much as an Ant or Piſmer, neither a worme, plant, trée, nor ſtone, which preacheth not, ſingeth, prayſeth, & magnifieth according to his nature, in his manner.

Euſebius.

How can the mute and dumbe creatures ſpeake, being without reaſon and inſenſible, which haue no ſence, reaſon, vnderſtandinge nor ſpeach? It muſt néedes be that we doe vnderſtand that of men.

Theophilus.

How can the Angells & the bleſſed ſoules, ſpeake and praiſe God, which haue no mouth as we haue? And how can the Firmament, the Sunne, the Moone, and The ſpeaking of the muet creatures & thoſe that haue no bodyes. the ſtarres declare and ſhew foorth the glory of God, and declare his vertue and power? for they haue no ſoule, nor mouth as men haue. Yet they haue neuertheleſſe their mouth agréeing to their nature, for to render vnto God the honour which apperteyneth vnto him. Euen ſo ought we to vnderſtand of al other creatures, which are all the liuely Images of God, which declare vnto vs thoſe meruailes, and doe ſpeake better hauing no mouth, then the Images which haue mouthes and ſpeake not, and which crye not thorow their throate. And therefore how many creatures Pſal. 1 5. b. 5 may there be vnder the earth which do praiſe God in that manner? And notwithſtanding that the dampned and reprobate doe not praiſe him in that ſort as he is praiſed of the elect, yet they are neuertheleſſe conſtrained to praiſe & glorif e him againſt their wills, and they cannot doe nor ſpeake any thing which ſerueth not vnto his honour and glory.

Euſebius.

Sith that by thy expoſitions thou haſt already pulled out of my handes all the argumentes that I haue againſt thee, I will diſplay at once that which remaineth behinde. What wilt thou ſay vpon that other place taken from the ſame booke? in which is ſpoken of the holy Apo 21. g, 27 citie of the celeſtial Hieruſalem, after this māner: ther ſhal enter into it no vncleane thing. To which agreeth that which is written in Eſay. This ſhalbe called the holy way, Eſa. 35. d. 8. no vncleane perſon ſhall goe thorow it.

Theophilus.

What wilt thou that I ſhould aunſwere thée vppon the ſame. There is none that will deny, but that he muſt be purged from all his ſinnes, before he can come vnto the eternall lyfe. For fleſh and bloud cannot 1. Cor. 15. ſſ. 5 inherite the kingdome of God. But the purgation is not done by the fire of Purgatory, but by the bloude of Ieſus Chriſt, by the which we are waſhed & purified, when thorow Apo. 1, b. 5 Act. 15. b. 9 Iohn. 15 a. 3 the word of god & thorow faith our hearts are ſprinkled. Therefore ſayd Ieſus Chriſt vnto his diſciples: you are cleane bicauſe of the words which you haue heard. We are purged, when we obteine remiſſion of our ſinnes, and that the Lorde forgetteth them, not imputing them vnto vs and remembring them, according to that which is written. Bleſſed are thoſe whoſe iniquities are forgiuen Pſa. 32. a. 2 & whoſe ſins are couered. Bleſſed is the man vnto whom the Lord imputeth no ſinne.

Thomas.

I doe greatly feare Euſebius, ſith that thou art already come vnto the Apocalips but that thou wilt be by and by at the ende of thy knowledge. For that is the ende of the new Teſtament, and of all the canonicall Scripture.

Hillarius.

I beléeue that he hath conducted and lead vs euen vnto the Apocalips for to bury his Purgatory to the ende we may helpe him to ſing his Requieſcant in pace. For I beleeue that he will dye héere, and that hée ſhall Requieſcant in pace of purgatory. paſſe no further. Your Doctors doe write that after the Iudgement, Purgatory and hell ſhal be all one. But I beléeue that that Purgatory which thou wouldeſt haue proued in the Apocalips, to be none other thing then thoſe pondes of fire and brimſtone, in which the beaſt which The vvells and ponds of fire & brimſtone. Apoc. 19. d. 0 hath engendered Purgatory, is caſt with hir falſe Prophets into the eternall bottomleſſe pitte.

Theophilus.

What ſayſt thou Euſebius to the ſame? Haſt thou no more refuge? Or whether thy arriere woorde bee altogether diſconfited?

Euſebius.

I haue no more wherewith to reuenge me, The place of the. 〈◊〉 Pet. 3. d, 19 except I ſhew foorth that place of Saint Peter, which witneſſeth that the ſpirite of Ieſus Chriſt preached vnto the ſpirites which were in priſen: By the which priſon I cannot vnderſtand but Purgatory or the Lymbe. r •• ching to 〈◊〉 . At the leaſtwiſe it muſt bee that thou doeſt allowe the one or the other.

Theophilus.

That obiection commeth well to purpoſe, for to aunſwere alſo to the queſtion of Thomas, and to thoſe which would haue a preaching of the Goſpell in the other world:

Thomas.

I am very gladde that thou haſt not forgotten it, and that the occaſion ſerueth ſo well.

Theophilus.

But before I will enter into it, I will agayne admoniſh thee, that I wil not define nor determine any thing of the eſtate of the dead, beſides that which the holy Scripture hath expreſſely reuealed vnto me. Wherefore I do conclude that although it ſhould be ſo that thoſe eſtéeme it to be true, yet neuertheles I ſhall not be of that opinion, that any perſon ſhould truſt vnto it and that hée ſhould leaue off to doe his endeauour in this worlde, to ſeeke Ieſus Chriſt: ſith that the Scripture doth not promiſe vnto vs cleerely any ether remedie, nor any other preaching and reuelation for our ſaluation after this lyfe. Therfore I would gladly allow, in this matter that which Gregory writeth touching Purgatory. For notwithſtanding that he did beleeue that in the ſame one might be purged Aduertiſement. from his ſinnes, yet neuertheleſſe he ſayth, that it is moſt ſure to gouerne himſelfe ſo in this worlde, that one néedeth not of that remedie in the other, but to haue there his recourſe and hope.

Thomas.

I am of thy opinion. But expound vnto vs at the leaſt the places, that one may alleadge them, to that purpoſe for to haue the intellygence thereoff. 1. Pet 3, d 18

Theophilus.

That which hath moſt ſhew is that which Euſebius hath touched, in which is written yt Chriſt hath once ſuffered for the ſinnes, the iuſt for the vniuſt for to bring vs to God and was killed, as perteining to the fleſh: But was quickened in the ſpirite. In which ſpirit he alſo went and preached vnto the ſpirites that were in priſon, which were in time paſſed diſobedient, when the long ſuffering abode exceeding patiently in the dayes of No &c, The other is by and by after, where he ſaith, that the wicked 1. Pet. 4, b. 〈◊〉 . ſhall giue accompt vnto him that is ready to Iudge quicke and dead. For vnto this purpoſe verely was the Goſpell preached vnto the dead, that they ſhould be iudged lyke other men, in the fleſh, but ſhould lyue before god in the ſpirite. Behold two places, after which many learned men haue much trauayled, and haue expounded them many wayes. Yet neuertheleſſe it hath bene moſt commonly taken for the Lymbe after that it was forged and inuented, bicauſe that he ſpeaketh of the ſpirits which were in priſon or in the lower partes, to whome Ieſus Chriſt hath preached. Thoſe there haue vnderſtanded by thoſe ſpirits, the ſoules of the auncient Fathers. By the priſon, the Helles and the Lymbes, in which they were deteined. The others, which are ſo affectioned after the Purgatory, that there is not a place in all the Scripture, which they endeauour not to wreſt & draw, either wrongfully or ouerthwartly, and haue taken that priſon for Purgatory, & the ſpirits, for the ſoules that are there. But theſe héere haue leſſe ſhew, and doe put themſelues more out of reaſon then the others. Chiefely, ſith that there is none of the Auncients, yt I know, not of thoſe which haue beleeued the Purgatory, that haue vnderſtanded it after that manner, and which haue alleadged it to that purpoſe. Wherefore it is not needeful to aunſwere them any further. But for to come to the expoſition of thoſe places, I will firſt aduertiſe you, that there are diuers interpretacions, the which I will recy •• ſome, to the ende that thou ſhouldeſt not thinke that I doe condempne all the others which haue expounded it: Or that I am more arrogant then all men, and that I doe attribute more to my ſence and iudgdement, then to any other.

If I define raſhlye of a thinge, the which all the Expoſitours haue founde it ſo obſcure and harde, that many among them haue bene conſtrayned to confeſſe that they cannot vnderſtande it. Then I will touch the diuers expoſitions, which are more ſufferable. Afterwardes I will ſignifie vnto you that which I thinke to be moſt proper. There are ſome which doe not vnderſtand that Saint The firſt expoſition. Peter ſpeaketh héere but of the lyuing vnto whom Ieſus Chriſt hath preached the goſpell, aſwell in his owne proper perſon, as by his Prophets and Apoſtles, which haue all ſpoken by his ſpirite. Wherefore one may well ſay, that Ieſus Chriſt hath preached vnto thē, ſith that it was not they that did ſpeake, but Ieſus Chriſt who by his holy ſpirite did ſpeake in them. Thoſe heere do take the words of Saint Peter by a Metaphore and by an Allegorie, and doe vnderſtande by the ſpirits which were in priſon, the dead, vnto whom it is ſayd in the chapter following that the Goſpell was preached, ſaying that ſaint Peter by that ſeconde place expoundeth the firſt. Now by theſe dead, vnto whom hath bene preached, they vnderſtand not the dead: but doe take that word, by a Metaphore, vnderſtanding The liuing called dead. by the dead, the ſinners which are dead thor w ſinne: the which he hath called before the ſpirits which were in priſon, bicauſe that the ſoule which is dead thorow ſinne, is holden by the ſame, as a priſoner which is in bondes and fetters, in the ſtockes and in priſon. Thoſe which doe expounde it after that manner, notwithſtanding that they doe accorde as touching the interpretation of the words, yet neuertheleſſe they doe a lyt le differ, touching that ſpirite, by the which Ieſus Chriſt went and preached vnto the ſpirits which were in priſon. For ſome doe expound VVhat is the ſpirit vvhich hath preached to the dead. it for the manifeſtation of Ieſus Chriſt which hath bene before his comming. Others, for that which hath followed his comming. Theſe heere doe vnderſtand by the ſpirite the holy Ghoſt which Ieſus Chriſt ſent, A &. 2. 〈◊〉 4 and gaue vnto his poſ les, by the which he hath preached the Goſpel to the Iewes and entiles, which before were rebellious and diſobedient vnto the worde of God. phe 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 , 2 Wherefore hee calleth them rebellyng and diſobedient ſpirits, deteined in the captiuitie of errour and of ſinne. For although that Ieſus Chriſt aſcended into heauen, and hath taken his body from vs, yet neuertheleſſe he is alwaies Mat, 18 ohn, 20 1, Cor. 12. among vs, by the vertue of his ſpirite, by the which he ſpeaketh in his Apoſtles, Miniſters, and Euangelycall Paſtors, and preacheth and admoniſheth alwayes the ſinners, and toucheth their heart, and conducteth and leadeth their ſpirits by his, for to make them enter into his Church, & for to ſaue the elect in the ſame, as thoſe which were ſaued in the Arke of Noe. There is nothing in this eneſ. 7. 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 1, pet. 2. 〈◊〉 . 5. expoſition contrary to the Analogie of the faith, and the ſence of the Scriptures. But yet neuertheleſſe it ſéemeth to ſome to be a lyttle allegoriſed and vyolated and to ſtray a lyttle too far front the Apoſtolycal ſimplycitie. Although that it be tollerable and Chriſtian lyke. Others doe vnderſtande by the ſpirite of Chriſt, his eternall vertue, by the which he hath bene long time agone the Sauiour and Iudge of the worlde, as he is at this preſent, the Sauiour by the water, as he doth now by the baptiſme. And therefore they doe vnderſtand that he is gone by his ſpirit, by his diuine vertue, & by his word, thorow out the world, as he paſſed thorow out Aegipt, declaring his power among the Aegyptians & ſauing the Iſraelites. Aſmuch hath hée Exo. 12. & 13 Geneſ. done in the time of the floude: and doth yet at this day. For he declareth his Iudgement vnto the wicked, & hath drowned them in the floude, euen as now he declareth it vnto all, to the ende that his ſeruaunts may be ſaued in the Arke of the Churche, and the others drowned by the Iudgement of God. Therefore is Noe called the herauld The herold of righteouſnes. of righteouſneſſe for to declare, that by the ſame, the ſpirite of Ieſus Chriſt declareth vnto men the righteouſnes and Iudgement of God, as a king declareth the warre by an herauld of armes, vnto thoſe which doe rebell agaynſt him, and refuſe peace. And the word which Saint Peter 2. Pet. 2. 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 , vſed when he ſayd, y Ieſus Chriſt hath preached vnto the ſpirits, doth not ſignifie onely to preach, but alſo to publiſh a commaundement and an ordinaunce as an Herauld. And that worde herauld, the which Saint Peter vſed ſpeaking of Noe, is taken of the very ſame, of which he vſeth, ſaying that Ieſus Chriſt hath preached vnto the ſpirites. And as to that that Saint Peter calleth them ſpirits, they The ſpi •• ts p •• ſo e s, thinke that he did it hauing regarde to their thoughtes and affections, beeing poſſeſſed with euill ſpirits. And doe buylde their interpretation vppon that which is written: God did ſée y all the thoughts of mans heart was giuen Geneſ. 6. a, 5 vnto euill. And vppon that which Saint Paul (ſpeaking of the power which is giuen vnto him by ye miniſtring of 2, Cor. 〈◊〉 b. 5 the Goſpell) ſayth that it is for to beat downe euery high thing, which exalteth it ſelfe agaynſt God, and for to bring into captiuitie the thoughts and ſpirites of men to the obedtence of Chriſt, delyuering them from the ſubiection of the wicked ſpirites which doe holde capti e the ſpirites, and vnderſtanding of the reprobate. They doe vnderſtand then by the ſpirites which were in priſon, thoſe which were in the ſpirituall priſon, or whoſe ſpirits were deteyned in captiuitie and priſon, by the wicked ſpirits. They haue yet regard vnto that that the ſcripture calleth thoſe Geneſ. 6. a. 2 which periſhed by the floude, the ſonnes of God, which did ſee the daughters of men: and to that which is there written, that the Lord did ſtrike and deſtroy euery ſoule and taketh from the middes of them euery ſpirite, and that he hath ſayd in threatning them, that he will take from them his ſpirite. For that cauſe they thinke that Saint Peter was induced to call ſuch men ſpirits, bicauſe that whileſt that their ſpirits did ſleepe and were detemed by the wicked ſpirits, they were ouercome and drowned by the waters of the ſloude, and the ſpirit was taken from them, as to him which was ſtrangled and c oked in the water. They alſo haue regarde to that, that that worde which Saint Peter hath vſed, which we doe interprete priſon, doth alſo ſignifie, the watche and warde which is kept in the night: Inſomuch that they thinke that Saynt Peter had regard vnto the parable of Ieſus Chriſt, which admoniſheth euery one to watch, as the faithfull ſeruant looking for his maſter, who knoweth not what houre hée will come, whether it be in the ſeconde, thirde, or fourth The ſence and meaning of the vvordes of Saint Peter. watch of the night: and for a full reſolution, they will fall vppon this ſence: Although that Ieſus Chriſt be dead as touching his fleſh, body and humanitie, yet neuertheleſſe he is quickened by the ſpirite, that is to ſay, by his eternall vertue and diuine power, by the which hee is not onely riſen from death, but alſo hath giuen vnto vs his quickening fleſh, and hath tourned death into lyfe, quickening by the ſame all thoſe which were dead thorow ſinne, ohn, 6 And to the ende that none ſhould diſpiſe Ieſus Chriſt, bicauſe that he is dead and was crucified as a vyle and an abiect perſon, he declared that he is ſo dead, that there is no lyfe but in his death: and that none can lyue but by him: and that he is not onely to day, but euerlaſting, and that by the ſame ſpirite and diuine and eternall vertue he Heb. 13. b. 〈◊〉 is already an other time come vnto the worlde and hath iudged and condempned the rebells, the proude and peruerſe ſpirits, oppreſſed with wicked ſpirites, which were not vnder their kéeping, but did ſléepe, not thinking on the iudgement of god, vntil ſuch time as the floud ouerwhelmed and drowned them, as he doth yet at this preſent, by Geneſ, 6, & 7 that ſame ſpyrite, by the which hée Iudgeth an condempneth the world, and ſaueth and quickeneth his elect euen as he did in the time of Noe.

Hillarius.

It ſeemeth that that expoſition is alſo a little vyolated & far fetched, neuertheleſſe it commeth not euill to purpoſe, but ſéemeth to agrée well inough to the letter of the text of S. Peter.

Theophilus.

Bicauſe that the place is obſcure & hard, I dare not to define & pronounce of it raſhly. But I would gladly put forth theſe expoſitions, to yt ende you may iudge of thē, & for to awake ye ſpirits, for to finde out ſome better thing. Neuertheles I thinke that this héere is the ſimpleſt, yt is to ſay, that S. Peter willing to ſhew foorth the efficacie & vertu of Ieſus Chriſt & of his An other expoſition death and paſſion, witneſſeth that it was ſo great, that the lyuing haue not onely felt & perceiued it but the dead alſo, vnto whom it is come. But in what manner or after 〈1 line〉 〈1 line〉 vnto the dead what ſort? How is it communicated vnto vs, and all his giftes and graces but by his ſpirite and diuine vertue? Euen as then by his ſpirite he hath giuen vnto vs his quickening fleſh, which is vnto vs ſpirite and lyfe, and hath Iohn, 6, 〈◊〉 . 3 communicated vnto vs his vertue, ſo hath he manifeſted himſelfe by the ſame ſpirite vnto the deade, both during their lyſe and after their death. For it is ſayde of Abraham, that he did ſée the day of the Lord, and reioyced. Iohn, 8. 〈◊〉 . 56. If he hath then already during this mortal lyfe, felt the efficacie and vertue of Ieſus Chriſt, long time before that he didde offer his eternall ſacrifice, wée cannot doubt, but that he and all the others, which were in his boſome, haue felte it more fully, when he did manifeſt himſelfe more fully.

By this we may well vnderſtand, whereto this place can ſerue to proue Purgatory. For if the vertue of the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt be of ſuch efficacie, that it goeth vnto the dead, what néede haue we then of Maſſes and Suffrages of the Prieſts for to comfort the dead, and to apply vnto them the merits of Ieſus Chriſt? ſith The predicatiō to the dead. that none can do it but he himſelf, by the vertue of his ſpirite which quickeneth the quicke and the dead. Now hée calleth that manifeſtacion predication: not that he hath preached verbally or by mouth, towards the dead, ſuch as is among the lyuing, but bicauſe that euen as by the preaching and Euangelycall miniſtring, Ieſus Chriſt is manifeſted vnto vs and doe feele the vertue and efficacie of his death and paſſion.

Alſo the ſpirits of the dead haue theirs, but in their maner, and ſuch as apperteineth vnto them: euen as we doe vnderſtande that God gaue himſelfe to his Angells to be knowen, and to make them taſt of his bountie and goodneſſe, but by an other meane then vnto vs, bicauſe that their condition was contrary. We muſt not then dreame The deſcending of Ieſus Chriſt into hell. out a Lymbe and a materiall priſon and a locale deſcending of the ſpirite of Ieſus Chriſt into hell: and a preaching ſuch as wée haue. But wée muſt vnderſtande all thoſe things ſpiritually. For as it is not néedfull that Ieſus Chriſt ſhould deſcend locally from heauen, for to make vs feele his vertue, ſo it is not neceſſary to deſcend into hell. For the vertue of his ſpirite is ſuch, that it filleth heauen and earth, and is ſpread abrode euery where.

Hillarius,

As I thinke, our dreaming Theologians had very much leaſure, whē they ſetled themſelues to diſpute, whether the ſoule of Ieſus Chriſt did ſuffer in the hell. Amongeſt the which, ſome of them are founde to bée of opinion, that he did.

Theophilus.

If they had wel vnderſtanded that which Ieſus Chriſt ſayd vnto the théefe: This day ſhalt thou Lue, 13. ff. 3 be with me in Paradiſe, and how Ieſus Chriſt deſcended into hell, when his ſoule was ſorrowfull, and in anguiſh, euen vnto the death, and that he hath dronken vp the cup of the wrath and furor of God, and hath borne his iudgement and our malediction and curſe, and the dampnation due vnto our ſinnes, inſomuch that he was ſtroken & beaten of God, & hath ſuffered death, after which he deſcended into the ſepulchre or graue, they ſhould not haue néeded againe to make the ſoule of Ieſus Chriſt to deſcend from Paradiſe, in which it was, for to goe into hell. For it is ſufficiently giuen vnto the ſpirites of his elect to vnderſtand, which haue receiued conſolation, and vnto thoſe of the reprobate, declaringe vnto them from what goodneſſe they were depriued without deſcending or aſſending.

Euſebius.

To what purpoſe then doth he ſpeake of the priſon? and what other thing can hée vnderſtand but the Lymbe? of which it is alſo ſpoken in Zachery, ſaying: I haue let thy priſoners out of the pit where is no water. The Li •• e. Za h, 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉

Theophilus.

By the Words of Zachery the Lord giueth vs to vnderſtand none other thing, but that by the bleud of the alliance that he hath made with Syon, he will deliuer his people yt are captiue, kept in ye bottom of all miſeries. By the priſoners, he vnderſtandeh his people that bée in The priſoners. The vvells. capti itie, by y euils he vnderſtandeth a captinitie, a goulſe and bottome of all miſerye, from which it is not poſſible for them to come out by any meanes if God doe not delyuer them himſelfe. Therefore he calleth it Welles for to declare the depth: yea yet without water, in which one cannot ſwimme: to the ende they may the better knowe their miſerie, and the grace and mercy of God towardes them. When S. Peter did ſpeake of ye priſon of the ſpirits, The priſon he did it for to amplyfie the better ye grace of the Goſpell, comparing thoſe which wer vnder ye ſeruitude & bondage of ye law, & vnder thoſe ſhadows & figures vnto thoſe which ſhall be in a priſon in reſpect of thoſe which haue receiued the light of ye goſpell. But we muſt not therefore dreame, that ye boſome of Abraham was a priſon, or a Caſtle, as we haue alredy declared in the other diſputacion. But we muſt be aduiſed & know yt thoſe things are ſpoken by a compariſon, as we haue already declared the examples.

Thomas.

It ſéemeth that Saint Peter ſpeaketh not, but of the reprobate. For after that hée hath ſpoken of thoſe ſpirits which wer in priſon, he addeth which late or ſometune were rebells.

Theophilus.

〈◊〉 . Cor. He ſpeaketh generally of all. For euen as the Goſpell is a ſweete ſauour of lyfe, to lyfe vnto thoſe which are ſaued, and a ſauour of death, to death vnto thoſe that periſh, ſo the death of Ieſus Chriſt bringeth a great reioycing, both to the Angells and to all the bleſſed ſpirits, and more greater confuſion and grieuous dampnation vnto the wicked and reprobate. But after that he ſpake generally of the ſpirits he purſued not all the two parts, but ſtayed himſelfe onely to the diſobedient and rebells, bicauſe that he is fallen into that matter ſpeaking of afflictions. Wherefore for to comfort the faythfull, he Gene . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 ſ ayed to declare vnto them ye vertue which Ieſus Chriſt hath, for to ſaue his, as he ſaued Noe and his family in the Arke: and for to puniſh the wicked and perſecutors, as he hath drowned the Gyants by the floud. For that cauſe he ſtayed to declare the Iudgement of god, as in the chapter following, ſaying: that Ieſus Chriſt ſhall Iudge the 1. P •• . 〈◊〉 . b. 〈◊〉 . quicke and the dead. For vnto this purpoſe verely was the Goſpell preached vnto the dead, that they ſhould bée iudged lyke other men in the fleſh, but ſhould lyue before God in the ſpirite.

Thomas.

By that which thou ſayeſt, thou doeſt declare vnto vs that that place, concludeth not yt ther is any other Limbe nor Purgatory, then ſuch which thou haſt ſhewed vnto vs from the beginning. But what ſayeſt thou touching the preaching of the which we haue ſpoken which ought to be done vnto the ſpirits after this lyfe.

Theophilus,

Firſt of all as touching thoſe which are Thoſe vvhich haue not beleued in this vvorld. departed out of this world, without hauing one grayne of that ſeede of the feare of God, but haue altogether reſiſted his ſpirite, and the naturall lyght and knowledge that hée hath giuen vnto them, or at the preaching of his goſpell we cannot leaue vnto them any preaching, nor any other remedy after their death, for their ſaluation: except wée wil fall into the error of the Origeniſts and Anabaptiſts. Iohn. 〈◊〉 c, 1 For it is written: He which beléeueth not in the Sonne of God is already condempned. But if it be a queſtion of the elect, which haue had alredy in this world ſome grain of the ſeede of God, which haue walked in his feare, although that they haue bene yet wrapped in many errors. and darkeneſſe, there is an other conſideration. Not that I doe vnderſtand that the goſpell is preached vnto them after they are departed out of this lyfe, otherwiſe, ſaying that they ſhall haue more ful knowledge of that, that they haue onely héere known, as amongſt the midſt of darkeneſſe. For if they be the ſonnes of God, the ſeede of god 1. Iohn. 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . 9 Cornelius Act. 10 〈◊◊〉 . which is in them ſhall ſaue them: As wee may iudge by the example of Cornelius the Centurion.

Before that he had heard the preaching of Saint Peter, he had not perfect knowledge of Ieſus Chriſt. Hée was yet a Panim: but he was not therefore altogether without the ſeede of the feare of GOD, nor without ſome beginning of fayth & obſcure knowledge of IESVS CHRIST: Or otherwiſe his prayers and almes deedes ſhoulde not haue bene approued of God, whome Heb. 11, b, 6. one cannot pleaſe without fayth. If he had then dyed before that S. Peter was come vnto him, I do not thinke therefore, that he had ben altogether reiected and forſaken of God: and that that knowledge ſufficed him not to ſaluation: or that he had not giuen himſelfe more fully to be knowne of him either by ſome diuine inſpiration: or by ſome other meanes, ſuch as it pleaſeth him: yea, in the Article of the death, or at his laſt gaſpe, rather then to ſuffer him to periſh. As we may preſume as wel of the Iewes, as of the Panims, who before the comming and manifeſtation of Ieſus Chriſt in the fleſh, had the lawe of God written in their heartes: notwithſtanding that they haue Rom 2. 〈◊〉 . 1 . not had altogether ſo full knowledge of Ieſus Chriſt, as we haue at this preſent. For although that the knowledge VVhat knovvledge of God is neceſſary to ſaluation. of Ieſus Chriſt be vnto all men neceſſary to ſaluation, it followeth not therefore, that none can be ſaued, if it be not full and perfect in him. For who euer had in this world ſo full knowledge of him, and a faith ſo perfect, that he had nothing to ſay? There was neuer ſuch a one found in this world. It ſufficeth then that that knowledge & faith, hath taken roote in vs, & that we do trauaile as much as we can poſſible to augment and increaſe it. And afterwards when we ſhall doe our endeuour, as much as we can, the Lord which hath begun his worke in vs will bring it to paſſe, and will ſupply and recompenſe thorow his grace the default of the faith and knowledge which we haue receiued of him (euen as he doth of our workes, which are all imperfect, bicauſe of the imperfection of our faith) ſo that ther be not diſpiſing, and to great negligence in vs, which cannot be but to the reprobate. Euen then as GOD, by his great mercye ſupporteth the imperfection of our fayth, and ceaſeth nor leaueth off to receiue vs for his children, ſo that the ſeede and the roote of the ſame be quickened in vs, ſo I cannot vpholde and mainteine by anye witneſſe of the holy Scripture, that any ſhould haue iuſt occaſion to hope for ſaluation after this lyfe, which from the ſame ſhall bée departed without any knowledge of God & of Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne. Wherefore I doe holde me to that which the Scripture hath reuealed vnto me, & do leaue the reſt with the ſecrete iudgements of God, which are hid from vs and couered. But yet neuertheleſſe I think that it is alwayes moſt ſure, to trauaile very much after the knowledge of the truth, whileſt that wée be in this worlde, that wee may haue ſo much as is néedfull for our ſaluation: and that our deſpiſing be not any cauſe vnto vs of dampnation. And if wée doe our endeuour, wee are very ſure that the Lorde will not faile vs, and that he will not hide himſelfe or withdrawe himſelfe from vs, if wée doe ſeeke him and deſire to approch and come vnto him. For it is impoſſible, that hee wil hide himſelfe from thoſe whom he hath choſen, & whō he hath purpoſed to glorifie, and to make them bleſſed by his knowledge. And notwithſtanding that wée haue not all of vs, ſo great and high knowledge of him, nor ſo many of his gi tes and graces as his Prophetes and Apoſtles, yet neuertheleſſe hee will giue vs as much as ſhall be neceſſary and expedient for vs: wherewith wée ought to content our ſelues. Behold that that I had to ſay vpon that pointe, and whereto I will ſtaye my ſelfe, without ſeking any further.

Thomas.

And I with thée: And praiſed be God for that I did finde your company, in which I haue heard ſo many good doctrines, and debating of ſo many good points of religion, of which I was before in great doubt, & had my conſcience much troubled. But nowe, the grace of God hath reſolued mée, and hath ſette my conſcience at reſt. And thou Euſebius, haſt thou chaunged thy opinion?

Euſebius.

I doe yéelde my ſelfe: and doe confeſſe that I can no longer withſtande the truth: and doe render thanckes vnto GOD which hath deliuered mée from thoſe great darkeneſſe, errours and abuſes, in whiche I was fallen into and drowned. For I was in greate daunger to be altogether loſt, if God thorowe his grace had not retyred and pulled me backe. And ſo much as I did thinke that I was in the right way, ſo much was the daunger the greater.

Thomas.

I am very glad to heare ſuch words of thée. For he that would haue ſworne vnto me at the beginning when I did ſee thée ſo contrary vnto Theophilus & vnto Hillarius, that thou ſhouldeſt haue come vnto this reſolution, I would neuer haue beleeued it.

Euſebius.

No more would I. But that which is impoſſible to men, is poſſible to God, who hath the hearts of Mat. 1 . d, 6 Pro. 1. a, 1. his in his hand, and chaungeth them as it pleaſeth him. And therefore we ought neuer to viſpaire of the conuerſion or of the ſaluation of any man, whileſt that we do ſée ſome little ſparke of the feare of God to ſhine in them, vntill ſuch time as we doe ther openly ſée reſiſtaunce againſt the knowen truth and the ſpirite of God.

Hillarius.

I haue not loſt altogether the hope. For I was well aſſured, that thou wouldeſt not reſiſt the truth thorow malice, but onely thorow ignoraunce. And God will not leaue ſuch men willingly alwayes in errour, but will drawe them out of it in the time that he hath ordeined: As we haue the example of Saul the great perſecutor, whome he hath made an Apoſtle and Euangeliſt of Saul being a perſecutor, made an apoſtle Act 9. 〈◊〉 . 1. the Doctrine which hée blaſphemed, and hath tourned a madde Wolfe, into the moſt excellenteſt Paſtour yt euer was in his Church. But ſith that God hath ſhewed vnto vs that grace and fauour, that we be all falled into a good concord, and vnitie, and that he hath conuerted and turned our warre, into ſo greate a peace, wée ought as well to remember to prepare the Funeralls for the The burning of Purgatory. Lymbe and Purgatorye, ſith that they are deade and readye to bée buryed. But let vs bée aduiſed who ſhall furniſhe the funerall pompe, and the Suffrages and Obſequies, and who ſhall doe the office.

Then muſt ringe the Belles Thomas, and Euſebius ſhall cary the Croſſe: and Theophilus the holye Water ſtoppe: and I will carye the ſprinckle and will doe the office, and the Prieſtes and Moonkes ſhall mourne.

Thomas.

I néede not to ringe the bells, for his death will be ſufficiently publiſhed abroade without that: And the Prieſtes will ſoone know of it without Bells, when they ſhall ſée their Kitchin to be ſo colde, and that the fire ſhall bée altogether extinct and put out. You ſaye in ſpeakinge of the lamentations whiche the Prieſtes dooe make after the dead, that they doe make pitious moane about them, as to the outwarde appearaunce by wrything their mouthes, but doe laughe inwardlye in their heartes. But I doe not doubt, that in this forrowe and lamentation héere, that they will not doe it faynedly, but that they will wéepe earneſtly. For they did neuer bury parentes nor friendes, whoſe death was ſo deere vnto them, and which dyd bring vnto them more greater ſorrow nor domage.

Hillarius.

I do greatly feare leaſt it happen vnto them as to the labourer of whome Eſope ſpeaketh off. He rehearſeth a fable of a woeman who had newly buryed hir The fable of ye fayned mourning of a laborer. huſbande, who did goe euery daye to his graue to wéepe and lament. Nowe there was a labourer which ploughed in a fielde which was not farre from the Churchyarde. Wherefore hée ſeeing that woeman, and was in loue with hir, inſomuch that hée lefte his Oxen, and went alſo vnto the graue, and beeing there ſette downe, dyd alſo wéepe with the woeman. When the woeman aſked him wherefore hée ſo lamented, hée aunſwered hir: bicauſe ſaith hée, that I haue buryed a faire and an honeſt woman, for whome I am much ſorrowfull and ſad. But after that I haue well wept and lamented, I am eaſed of my ſorrow. And the woman ſayd vnto him: Euen ſo is it chaunced to me of my huſband. Wherevpon the labourer aunſwered vnto hir. For as much then as both of vs are fallen into one miſfortune, wherefore maye we not marye together? For I will loue thée, as I loued my firſt wife, and thou ſhalt leue mée in like manner as thou diddeſt loue thy firſt huſbande. By thoſe woordes ee he did put that into the woemans head, in ſo much that they accorded together. But whileſt that hee vſed that deceite and plaide the Foxe with the poore woman, ther came a théefe more wily thē he, which ſtole away his Oxen and caryed them away. When hée was retourned and that he founde not his Oxen, hée did begin to wéepe and lament, and to ſtrike his breſt very bitterly. The woeman alſo came: and when ſhée had founde him weeping and lamenting, ſhée ſayd vnto him Doeſt thou wéepe yet. And hée aunſwered vnto hir: nowe I wéepe earneſtly. Before his teares were fained and did but wéep outwardly, and laughed in his heart as our Prieſtes do at the Funeralls and Obſequies of the dead. But I am altogether certeine, that there ſhall bée no ieſtinge nor Crocodiles teares, in the burying of their Purgatorye. For as ſoone as he ſhall be dead, the Maſſe ſhall not liue longe after. And ſo they ſhall haue two bodyes whiche will bringe vnto them great ſorrowe and heauineſſe. But I beléeue that they will not beſtowe ſo much money about them, for to make their good déedes, as they haue gotten and heaped together by their meanes. But let vs ſuffer them to wéepe their fill, as well as they haue made others wéepe, & let vs ſinge when they wéepe. Neuertheleſſe I will yet doe for them this ſeruice, to make for them a lamentation and complaint, to moue them the better to pittie and compaſſion vpon that poore dead body. For me thinckes that I doe heare them already lament in this wiſe.

Now let vs lament we Moonkes and we Nunnes. Prieſts, bawdes and whoores, with our baſtard ſonnes. For now the hot Furnaces quenched are that haue made vs fat with their deintie fare. Now we may compt our ſelues in euill caſe for the good time we had hath loſt his place. And dead is he that did heape vp in cheſt, Money wherewith we made our Gaudemus. Alas he is now at peace and at reſt, Wherefore let vs ſing an other Oremus.

Let vs ſuffer them to ſing that in ſtéede of Vigiles and of Libera me, and of their Fidelium, and I will make his Epitaph, which ſhall ſerue him for his latter Oremus.

O gentle ſir Iohn, who of Purgatory Haſt gotten ſo much of ſiluer and golde: Make ſpeedely to be known to all of the Popry, To ſing Requiem aeternam for his ſweete ſoule. By him an Epicures lyfe thou didſt lead, But now alas he is dead an hath no place: And with him thy earthly kingdome is dead. Sing for him then Requieſcant in pace.
Thomas.

Amen. Now ſith that he is buryed let vs goe to Supper, that he may haue alſo his funerall Supper, and that wée may as well banket as the prieſts in thoſe of the dead in the dayes of their Anniuerſaries & yeares minde.

Hillarius.

Let vs goe.

FINIS.
¶ A Table of the principall matters of the thirde parte of the Chriſtian diſputacions. A. ABſolution of the quick and the dead. 275. Aduertiſement. 293. Againſt the Originiſts. 272. Alexander. 283. Amongſt whom are reputed the ſoules of Purgatory. 274. Anabaptiſts. 238. Anſegiſus. 234 Angells dare not curſe the diuells. 285. Aunſwere to the place of the Pſalmes. 263. Antechriſt. 276. Antiochus. 215. Apocripha what it is. 216. Apoſtles of the circumciſion. 257. Apothegma. 211 Archeſilaus. 257. Argument a poſteriori. 279. Aſſhes of Pope Boniface. 280. Augmentation of the felycitie to Angels 246. Authoritie of the booke of the Machabees. 213. Authoritie of the Prophets & Apoſtles. 217. Authoritie of the Scripture. 217. Authoritie of the church. 217. B. Baptiſe with ye holy Ghoſt and fire. 235 Baptiſe two times in the yeare. 239 Baptiſme delayed. 239. Baptiſme onely of Ieſus Chriſt. 256 Baptiſme of woemen. 241 Baptiſme of water, whether it be neceſſary to ſaluation. 232. Baptiſme of deuotion. 233. Baptiſme of bloud. 237. To be baptiſed for the dead 290 Beginning of ye iudgement of God. 247. Beginning of Hell and Paradiſe. 248. Bonauenture deified and made God. 283. Boniface the eight. 280. Bookes Canonicall. 216. Bookes of Thoby. 262. Booke ſecond of the Machabees. 217 Bookes Canonical and Apocripha 214 Bookes of Ioſeph. 214 To be borne agayne of water how it is be vnderſtanded. 234. Boſome of Abraham. 225 Boow the knee. 291 Bulles doing all things. 284 Bulles in Purgatory. 277. Burying of Purgatory. 299. Burying of the conſcience. 277. C. Candell before. 268 Canons of the Apoſtles. 215 Catheciſmenes. 237 Circumciſion deferred. 229 Chriſt the reſtorer of all things. 247 Chriſt our pledge. 215. Church of Lauſanne. 256. One onely and eternall Church. 244. Charecter indebilis. 276. Charles. 256. Clement the ſixt. 283. Clockes of Purgatory. 286. Compariſon of the diuine and humaine doctrine. 264. Comperiſon of the lyfe preſent and that to come 246. Condition of ye childrē of ye chriſtiōs. 230. Conſcience. 247. Conſcientia mille teſtes. 247. Conſolation in Abrams boſome. 231. Contrarieties of Canons. 285 Cornelius. 298. Counſell of Africa. 242. Creame Papiſticall. 276. Creators of the Creator: 281. Cuſtome of the true & falſe doctors. 266. D. Day of the Lord. 264. Dead doe bite. 274. The dead how they are puniſhed in their ſucceſſours. 253 Degrees of the Iudgement of god. 249 Deſcending of Chriſt into hell. 296. Difference betweene the Limbe, Purgatory and Hell. 22 . Difference betweene the fire of Purgatory and Hell. 221. Difference betweene the olde and new Teſtament. 244 Difference betweene the dead vnder the olde and new Teſtament. 244 Diſpēſation of ye treſure of ye church. 284 Diſpoſition of this Dialogue. 262 Diuerſitie of pardons. 271 Doctrine troubleſome. 259 Doctors ſcholaſticall doubting of the bulls. 284. Dreames of the Saints and of the rauing Theologaſters. 213 Dreamers or ſleepers. 249. E. Eccius. 262. Encreaſe of glory in the other lyfe. 245. En ant how it ſhall beare the iniquitie of his father. 253. Error about the Sacraments. 238. Error touching the Supper. 234. Error of the Bohemians & Morians. 234. Eſtate of the ſoules after the ſeperation from the body. 249 Eternitie temporall. 272. Euangeliſts of the Pope. 287. Example of the long dayes in Purgatory. 286. Example of Iudas Machabeus. 251. Example of the mercy of God. 220. Example. 212. 286 Example of Fryer Roger. 277. Examples that the Saynts ought not to be all drawne into a generall conſequence. 243. Example of Ziphora. 243. Expoſition of the place of Saint Iohn ca. 3. 234. Expoſition of the ſchoolemen vppon the pl ce of Saint Iohn. ca. 3. 236 Expoſition of the place of Thoby. 262. Expoſition of the place of the 1. Cor. ca. 3. 263. Expoſition Allegoricall. 268 Excommunicate the dead. 282. Excommunicate the doctrine of the dead. 285 Ex puris negatiuis nihill ſequitur. 271. F. Fable of Theſeus and Pyrothus. 221. Fable of ye fayned mourning of a Laborer. 300. Fable of Gregory. 221. Faith of Symon. 240. Fire. 265. Foundation of the order of the Mendicants. 287. Fryer Chriſtopher. 255. Friends of the kitchin. 223. Furyed and ſhe diuells. 248. G. Gates of dreames. 212 Gate of y ory and of horne. 213. Gentiles ſaued without Circumciſion. 229. Gerion: 258. Gibellinus. 280. God of Hipocrites. 22 . God compared to tyrants. 252. Good workes. 223. Grace halfe. 251. Great Lockyer. 276. 2 5 Greatneſſe of the paines of Purgatory. 221. Gregory the firſt made no mention of bulls for the dead. 284. H. Halfe a ſauiour. 251 Hangmen of Infants. 238. Harman condempned by the Pope. 282 Saint Harman. 282 Hell of the Origeniſts and Catabaptiſts. 224. Helindius. 270 Henticus 4. 282 Hercules. 258. Heroſtratus. 256. Heroſtratus burned the Temple of Diana. 256. Herauld of righteouſneſſe. 29 . Holy Ghoſt a fire. 235. Holy Ghoſt water. 235. Honour to the ſacraments. 2 9. Hoſtenſis contrary to the bulls. 284. Hipocrits enuious of ye grace of god 220 Hydra. 258. I. Ignoraunce excuſeth 〈◊〉 . 289. Image of death. 250 Indians. 235. Incredulitie of Thomas. 212. Inſufficiencie of the booke of ye Machabees for to proue Purgatory. 2 1 〈◊〉 of ſaints for the dead. 277. Ioſeph authour of the booke of the Machabees. 214. Iſaac and Iſmael. Iubile of the Pope. 283. Iubile of God. 283. Iudgement of the Scriptures to whom it apperteineth. 216. Iudgement by the word. 211. Iudgement of the Sodomites and Gomorrians. 288. Iudgement of ſaint Hierome touching the bookes of the Machabees. 214 Iuſtice and mercy of God. 222 K. Keyes of ſaint Peter & of the Pope. 276. Keyes of hell. 279 Keye chaunged. 276. Kindr •• s of Loth. 288 L. Languages of the Prophets. 217 Our Lady of Butter. 241. Legends of Saints. 215. Legittimation. 216. Lembe. 226. Lembus. 226. Limbus. 225. Saint Lewes canonized. 282 Licence Theologicall. 225 Limbe of the Infants deſtroyed. 238. Limbe of the Infants. 226. Limbe of the Fathers. 244. Limbe. 219. 297 Limbe what it ſignifieth. 225. Liuing called dead. 294 Lud ſeculares. 283. M. Madiani s papiſticall. 287. Machabees. 215. Man making Gods. 280. Manner to know God. 279. Marke of conſcience. 277 Marke of the great whore. 277. Mar ••• niſts. 242. Martirs before the comming of Ieſus Chriſt. 21 . Maſſes for the lyttle Infants. 259. Maſſe of Requiem for the Saints. 255 Mans reaſon the foundation of purgatory. 222. Men that are dead, Gods to the Idolaters. 282. Mercury. 269. Miniſters of Sacraments. 241. Moonkes dead to the world. 274. Mortui non mordent. 274. N. Neceſſitie. 228. New Letanie. 255. New tranſfiguration of Sathan. 258. O. Obiection. 2 3. 222. 232. Obiection of the neceſſitie of baptiſme. 237. Office of a Lieuetenaunt. 27 . Offices Eccleſiaſticall. 241. The onely death of Ieſus Chriſt ſatiſfieth. 220. One onely God. 280. Opinion of Lombard. 227 P. Pagatory. 276. Paynes of the Limbe. 224 Payne for ſatiſfaction. 220. Payne and fault. 251. Paynes of purgatory. 224. Pardons to whom they profit. 285. Pelagians. 239. Poena damni & poena ſenſus. 224. Philip king of Fraunce. 280. Pickelockes. 286. Place of purgatory. 279 Place of Saint Luke. ca. 12. 287. Place of the Actes. ca. 2. 289. Place of Saint Mathew ca 12. decl •• ed. 271. Place of the Apoc. ca. 5. 292. Place of the 1. Corinthians. ca. 15. 290. Place of the Philippians. ca. 2. 291. Place of Saint Peter. 1. ca. 3. 293. Place of Thoby contrary to the prieſts. 262 Place of Saint Mathew. ca. 5. expounded. 267. Place of the ſecond booke of the Machabees, ſerueth nothing at all for purgatory. 219. Playes and games of the Panims. 283 Pope God, and more then God. 278 Pope Clement the ſixt, cyted by Fryer walter being dead. 286. Pope Lieuetenaunt of Saint Peter. 274 Pope more puiſſant then Chriſt. 252. Pope hath more power then the ſaints. 278. Pope Iudge of the quick and the dead 284. Power of the keies and indulgences for the dead. 274. Power of the keyes. 274. Power of the keyes lymitted in this worlde. 284 Power to giue pardons lymitted. 285. Power of the dead vppon the Popes. 286. Prayſe giuen to God for all creatures. 292. Prayers for the reſurrection. 252 Prayers for the Saints that be in Paradiſe. 255 Prayer for the deade how that may be done. 253 Prayer for the reſurrection of the bodye and the comming of Chriſt. 254. Prayers of the diuells. 291. Predication to the dead. 273. 293. 296. he Prieſts or woemen Prieſts. 242. Prieſthoode of the dead. 276. Priſon. 297. Priſoners. 29 Prochet Archbiſhop of Genes. 280. Propoſitions equipolents. 271. The latter Prophets. 217. Prouerbe common. 211. 267 Priuiledge. 220. Puniſhment vppon thoſe that doe reiect the Goſpell. 289. Puniſhment of the elect with the reproreprobate. 188. Puniſhment of ſinnes. 222. Purgatory the nurſe of ſinnes. 222 Purgatory by what reaſon it is builded. 219. Purgatory before the cōming of Chriſt. 219. Purgatory of purſes. 276. Purgatory for the body. 258. Q. Queſtion of the Infantes of the Hebrewes dead without circumciſion. 226. Queſtion Theologicall. 230. R. Rage of Pope Stephen againſt Formoſus. 281. Raymond. 251. Rebellion and diſpiſing the commaundements of God. 223 Reconciliation fraternall. 269. Regeneration. 234. Regula. 267. Renumeration of good deedes. 222. Reward of fooliſh builders. 26 . Requ eſcant in pace in Purgatory. 293. De Roma the defiler of the faith. 18 S. Sacrifice of Chriſt eternall. 24 . Saluation without exterior Sacraments. 229. Saluation without Baptiſme. 237. Saluation ly •• to the elements. 233 Saluation without viſible Baptiſme. 213. Saluation by piruiledge. 220. Sara and Agar. 256. Saued by fire. 265. Saul a perſecutor made an Apoſtle. 299. See God before and behinde. 279. Seigniory of Ieſus Chriſt. 291 Sence and meaning of the words of S. Peter. 1. Epiſt. Cap. 3. 296. Sence of S. Mat. words. Cap. 5. 270. Sence of the words of S. Luc. Cap. 11. 270. Sence of the words of Ieſus Chriſt vpon the 5. Cap of Saint Mat. 269. Sence of the parable. 270. Sentence of Saint Auguſtine touching the children that are dead without baptiſme. 238. Sergeants of Purgatory. 268. Sergius and Formoſus. 281 Shed out ones bread and wine vpon the graues of the iuſt. 262 Sichimites. 230 Signe to iudge the true and falſe Prophets. 258. Signes and figures for the thinges ſigned and figured. 240 Silla and Marius. 281. Sillogiſme. 178 Signification of Limbe. 225. Sim n Peter. 276 Sinne againſt the holy Ghoſt. 272 Sinne to death. 256. Sinne originall. 2 9. Sextus 283. Skirmiſhers. 257. Solution of Baptiſme. 237. S •• e of the Scripture & of the auncient Doctors touching the Sacramets. 236 Stella Clericorum. 281. Speaking of dumbe and incorporal creatures. 292 Spirite of Bacchus. 213. Spirites priſoners. 295 Spirite that preached to the dead what •• it is. 294 Supper giuen to Infantes by Ciprian and Origene. 234. Suburbes of hell and of Paradiſe. 226. T. Theology inferior and metaphiſical. 257 Thoſe which haue not beleeued in this world. 298. Three ſortes of baptiſme. 237 Treaſure of the Church and the diſpenſation of the ſame. 284 Treaſure of the Church. 264. Three hells. 224 Torments of the reprobate agrauated. 247. Tranſfer and giue kingdomes. 280. True Gedeon. 287. Two wayes. 225 V. Vaineglory. 257. Valentinian. 233. Valew of twelue thouſand ragmes. 213 Vertue of Ieſus Chriſt come to the dead. 196. Vertue of the buls and pardons. 283 Vſe of Allegories. 298. W. Warre of the Geants. 256. Wells. 297 Wells of Saint Patricke. 212. Wells of fire and brimſtone. 293. What knowledge of God is neceſſary to ſaluation. 279, 298 Who doe boow the knee in hell. 291. Witneſſe of God. 218. Witneſſe of conſcience that he is a God. 248. Word of God Iudge and guide. 212. Workes of hipocrites. 223. Worme of the conſcience. 249. FINIS TABVLAE.

blazon or coat of arms of Thomas East of a black horse on a wreath atop a chevron between three horses' heads erased, a crescent for difference (McKerrow 209)
MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR EN VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE

¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas Eaſt, dwelling by Paules wharfe. 1579.