MIne hoste, I pray you stay with me and my friende M. Tertul­lus, and tell vs some newes, for wee are lately come out of Scotland, and would heare before wee come nere London, in what state things doo stand, least wee comming on a sud­den, speede as ill as wee did at Edenbo­rough, and S. Andrews.

Good my Lorde, I canne tell you no great newes, for I go not so farre as to Church once in a moneth, but if I doo happen to go, one of my seruants doth come for me in all haste, to make mer­rie with one guest or other, but there be twoo in this house that came from London, if it please your L. I wil intreat one of them to come vnto you, it may be he can tell you some thing.

I pray thee doo so: you are welcome my friend, I vnderstand that you came from London, I pray you tell me some newes for I hauing beene in Scotland, some space, haue not heard much of the state of England.

My L. I heare no newes, but that our [Page] Bishoppes (Gods blessing haue theyr heartes for it) say pretie wel, by one and by one, to these precise and hot Prea­chers, for some of them are putte to si­lence, some of them close prisoners in the Gate-house, some well loden wyth yrons in the White-lyon, and some in the Clinke, I hope to see them one day all put downe, for they trouble the whole land, and are neither contented to obey the authoritie of these holie fa­thers, neyther yet will suffer vs to liue as our fore-fathers haue doone before vs, and heere is a good fellowe which I met yesterday vppon the way, who is iust of their opinion.

I knowe not of what religion hee of whome you speake is of but I am sure that hee hath manie of our Preachers quallities, for whiche I like him the woorse, for since our Preacher came, I haue not gained halfe so much as here­tofore I did, but if I had but euery night suche a guest, wythin one moneth all men woulde refraine from comming to mine house, and so I might begge.

Why mine hoste, what are his quali­ties that you dislike so much?

VVhat? I will tell you, as soone as euer he lighted, my man that tooke his horse, chanced but to sweare by God, and he was reproouing of him by and by, and a gentleman cannot come in this euening, in any place where he is, but he is finding faut with him for one thing or another: and when he should go to supper, with other gentlemen, sitting at the lower end of the table, he would needes say grace (forsooth) be­fore and after supper, and so stay them that were hungrie, from their meat the longer, and from their sleepe afterward but one wiser then the rest, serued him in his kinde, for he started vp saying: my father had neuer grace said before meate, neither will I haue any.

I perceiue he is one of these peeuish puritanes, that troubled the Church, when my friend and I went into Scot­land, haue not the Bishops yet suppres­sed them, neither by countenance, nor by authoritie?

Suppressed; No my Lord, a frind of mine writ vnto mee, that one of theyr Preachers said in a pulpit, he was per­swaded that there were 100000 of [Page] them in Englande, and that the num­ber of them encreased daily in euerie place of all estates and degrees.

I am sory for that, I maruell that you neuer tould me of it.

I did of purpose conceale it, least, to­gither with your ill successe that you, and so consequently I, had in Scotlād, your griefe should haue bene aggraua­ted, for I know how that the growing of them doth grieue you.

You may be sure, that it would haue grieued mee, if you had tould me that, when you tould me of the encreasing of your friendes the Papists, I thinke I should haue died for sorrow.

I knowe that, therefore did I keepe it cloase, but if newes had come in like monne, of the growing of the Catho­lique religion vnto your man, that Pu­ritane knaue, hee would haue tould it you at the first, and so haue molested you the more.

You say well, and I percciue it is bet­ter to haue a Papist, than a Puritane in an house, and more charitie to do for them.

Your Lordshippe asked me forsome [Page] newes, but your speach of your being, and ill successe that you hadde in Scot­land, giueth me occasion, to enquire of you (if I may be so bolde) Some Scot­tish newes.

Ah my hoste, though it grieue mee to thinke vppon it, yet it easeth my sto­macke to tell it out. The Puritanes in Scotland, haue got vp their discipline, and vtterly ouerthrowen all the soue­raigntie of Bishops, by which they pre­uailed so mightilie, that we feared our fall in England shortlie to ensue, wher­vpon I was sent togither with this my friend, who came out of Fraunce into England, to go and seeke the subuer­sion of their great assemblies, and the rest of their iurisdiction, wherein I pre­uailed a while, but nowe it is woorse, than euer it was.

How came it to passe, that when you had gotten some ground, you held it not?

Because the whole land cried out for Discipline againe, and the noble men so stifly did stand to it, and lastly, the Ministers that came home from Eng­land, dealt so boldelie with the King, [Page] that I was vtterlie cast out without all hope, euer to do any good there again, and nowe I make homewarde in haste, least I loose all there also, but I praye you helpe me to speake with that Puri­tane, I shall learne more by him, be­cause he is better acquainted wyth the cause than either of you.

Hee may soone knowe more in that case than I, for I promise you, mine onely studie is in my counting house, to see my money, and when each parcel is due vnto me.

And I meddle with nothing but my In-keeping, as for these controuersies and this scripturing, I neuer trouble my selfe wyth it, but I will goe to him to see whether I can get him to come to your Lordship: but before I go, I must beseech you to saye nothing to him as from mee, for you knowe, I must bee friendly to all, least I leese my custome, and driue away some of my guests.

Great reason, for euerie man must liue of his trade, neyther must you tell him what I am.

Sir, heere bee certaine gentlemen in an other chamber, that hearing of your [Page] comming from London, would gladlie speake with you.

Whence are they can you tell?

They are English men, but they are but new come out of Scotland.

I am willing to go to them, though it be late, and so much the rather, bicause I long to heare some good newes from thence.

Here is the Gentleman that you de­sired to speake withall.

You are welcome my frind, I was de­sirous to speak with you, for that I per­ceiue you came from London, I praie you, can you tell vs any good newes?

No surely, for I am a verie ill obser­uer of such things.

You seeme to be a Minister, can you tell me what good successe my Lordes the Bishops haue in their proceedings?

They haue too good successe, they wax worse and worse, they grow euen to the heigth of their iniquitie, so that I hope their kingdom wil not stand long.

Why sir, what doe they, that they offend you so grieuously?

They stop the mouth of the sheepe­heardes, and set at liberty the rauening [Page] wolues, and turne the foxes among the lambes.

I must desire you to expresse your minde more plainely, for you seeme to bee so possessed with discontentment, that it maketh you to speak (as it were) snatchingly.

I confesse my selfe discontented, and greatly grieued, but yet not so much, as to make mee lesse able to expresse my minde.

I pray you therefore, lay open your former speeches, that I may vnderstand your meaning.

My meaning is this; That there are three abhominations committed by them: The first is, that they do beare such an enmity against the kingdome of Iesus Christ, that they put to silence one after an other, and will neuer cease (if God bridle them not) vntill they haue rooted out of the Church, all the learned, godly, and painefull teachers: The second is, that they enlarge the li­bertie of the common enemies the pa­pists: The last is, that they commit the feedinge of the flockes of Christe, vnto those that prey vpon them, and eyther [Page] cannot, or will not labour to reclaime the wandering sheepe. So that the con­clusions that may bee gathered vppon their actions, must needes be the euer­sion and ouerthrow of the Gospell, and so consequently the bringing in of po­pery and atheisme.

They put none to silence, but the pu­ritans, who do indeede more hurt than good.

I know no puritans, if there be anie, it is meete that they be put to silence: But Sathan taught the Papistes, so to name the ministers of the Gospell, and you are his instrument in continuing the same rerme.

I meane them, that are not conten­ted with the estate, but mislike the go­uernement of the Church, and woulde haue a newe forme of gouernement, which would marre all.

Woulde you haue them contented with Antichristian prelates, to bee ru­lers of the spouse of Christ, when as the word of God hath prescribed expresly, another form direct contrary to that?

I am a doctor of diuinity at the least, and yet could I neuer reade any thing [Page] in the worde of God, contrarie to this gouernement, neyther yet to speake of any other, but that the ordering of the Church is left to the discretion of the wise and learned.

Yes, you haue read it, if God had gi­uen you eyes to see it: But if your stu­dy had beene principally to aduaunce Gods glorie, and benefite his Church, which you neuer aymed at, but rather preferred vaine glorye and gaine, you should easily haue found it. I pray you therefore, when you come to London, see if you can get these bookes: the Ec­clesiasticall Discipline: A lerned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernement: The Counter­poyson: A Sermon vpon the 12. to the Ro­manes, & M. Cartwrites last reply: some of which bookes haue bene extant this dozen yeeres, and yet are none of them answered, and you shall finde it other­wise.

If their Lordsh, were taken away, the credite of the Gospell would fall to the ground, and men would not regarde it.

Nay, their iurisdiction maketh it not to be regarded, for the simplicitie of the Gospell, can not match with such [Page] outward pompe, it was of more credit before their calling was hatched, than euer it was since.

I hope neuer to see thē ouerthrown, and I thinke they will neuer giue ouer their Byshopricks.

I am of your mind, that they wil ne­uer giue them ouer, they haue such ex­perience of the gaine of them, the vse of the bagge preuailed so much with one of their Apostles, that rather than hee woulde lacke money, he would sell Ie­sus Christ himselfe.

You speak too vnreuerently and vn­charitablie of these holy fathers.

Surely I haue so much experience of their impious dealing, that I canne no better esteeme of them in respecte of their plaees, than of the ennemies of God, but as they bee men, I will not cease to pray for them, that God would open their eies, that they may see their sinnes, and repent, which is the best waie to deale charitablie with them.

I pray you tell ne why these men be put to silence, I am sure it is for theyr notorious misdemeanor.

I will tell you wherefore some of [Page] them were put to silence; one had con­ference with a Bishop about subscripti­on, and he was restrained for that hee gaue his friende a coppie of his confe­rence, another, because he taught that the Church of Antichrist was no parte of the Church of God, another, be­cause his praiers before and after Ser­mons were too long, and such like.

Away, it is rather for not obseruing the booke of common praier, than for any such thing as you speake of.

Indeed many are suppressed therfore, but if any man will giue them their ti­tles and authoritie, they will giue hym leaue to vse his discreation wyth the Booke, as wee see by experience, for they vse the Booke and ceremonies as brieles to curb them that ki [...]k at their lordlinesse, which is the onelie thing that they mind.

Well, I loue not to heare these reue­rend fathers so abused, and therefore I praye you talke no more of it, but if it please you, you may depart.

I am contented, onlie let me request you this one thing, that for so much as GOD hath giuen you learning, you [Page] would praye vnto God, to guide you with his grace, that you abuse it not to your owne destruction, but employ it to his glory, and the good of his church.

I thanke you for your good counsell, and so fare you well, we will talke more in the morning.

With a good will: I praye God our talke may tend to a good end.

M. Demetrius and mine hoste, howe like you this fellew? is hee not a sawcie merchant, to presume thus to speake against those that were Preachers be­fore he was borne? But this is the mise­rie of our nation, that euerie yong boy will take vppon him to reach the anci­ent, and to reprooue them, for that their greene heades thinke that to bee true.

Your Lordship saith very well, I pray you forget not to vrge him with that in the morning. For it must needs make him mute.

I promise you he is a bolde fellowe, it is no maruayle, if such as hee is, doe stand stiffe against vs that be vnlerned, seeing they bee so bolde with you, I tel you, he tooke me vp as if I had bin but [Page] a kitchin boye, and all because I saide I liued by my monie, and was of no o­ther trade, calling me caterpiller, thief, and murtherer, and saide plainely, that he that robbed in Stran-gate hole, was an honester man than I.

You must take heed, that you do not oppresse your brother too much, but as for these fellowes, it is their manner to be so bitter and sharpe, that they do euer with their preaching, more hurte than good.

I hope you wil course him tomorow for it: but I pray you my L. let me haue a little talke betweene you and me, of a matter that now commeth in my mind; this man that is with you, and went and came in your company, what is he?

To be plaine with you, he is a Papist.

Papists are enemies to the Queenes religion and lawes; I do therefore much maruaile, that he should be put in trust by the Bishops.

The cause is this, he light into the fa­miliaritie of one of our friendes, who confuted a Booke called the Abstract, and helped him so painefully with rea­sons out of the Rhemish testament, and [Page] other such like writers, to confute the Puritans, that he was thought a fit man aboue all other of his religion, to goe with me.

Why, coulde you not haue had ano­ther of your relgion, but you must needs haue a Papist your assistant?

No, no, if I had not had a Papist with me, I could neuer haue looked to haue preuailed.

Why so? I pray you tel me the reason of that.

Because our dignities and gouerne­ment, commeth wholy and euerie part thereof from the Pope, and is ruled and defended by the same canons, whereby his popedome is supported. So that if I had wanted their helpes, I had had none authoritie, eyther from God or man, no helpe either by reason or lear­ning, whereby I could haue beene fur­thered.

Why did you not rather take some doctour of the Arches, to go with you?

That was consulted vppon before I went, but it was not thought meet, be­cause the most of them woulde neuer deale in that lawe at home, but onely [Page] because they knowe not else howe to liue, & therfore it was feared that they woulde not be sufficiently diligent in a matter that concerneth others. And for the rest (who indeede) be the same men they were in Queene Maries time, we durst not carrie anie of them from home, for none defend our kingdome thorowlie but they.

Me thinks this man should be an vn­fit assistant, for if he be a right Papist, he will labor to erect the Popes kingdom, and so to crosse you.

No question but he did so, and that made for vs, for albeit we would if wee might, of the twaine, keepe rather the protestants religion with our dignities than the other, yet hadde wee rather change our religion, than to forgo our priuiledges; this I tell you betweene you and me, but I would haue it go no further.

Do the old popish doctors stand you in such gret steed, me think you might haue hadde learned lawyers for cuerie place before this time, and haue turned them out:

It is true, but we haue receiued them [Page] of purpose (man) for we can beare, I tel you, with their religion, so that they do beare vp our authoritie: doe you not see likewise, that we haue reserued ma [...] my popish prists in the ministery, wher­of diuerse doe yet remaine, which wee haue done vpon speciall consideration: to wit, least there should be too manie learned, not one whereof will stand to vs, sane onely they that eyther haue, or looke to haue better preferment, or liue more easilie than S. Paules Epistles will allow them.

I haue beene bold to trouble your L. I will nowe leaue you for this time, I will come vnto you in the morning to breakfast.

You shall be welcome vnto me at all times, for I perceyue you are none of them that fauor the Puritans.

My L. your breakfast is redy, wil you haue them come to you that were here yesternight.

I would haue him that taried yester­night so late, for hee is a very honest gentleman, and a quiet, but in any case let not the Puritane come vntill break­fast be done, for he is too precise: I must [Page] needs be mery, and if he be here, he wil not let to reproue vs, if wee do butfor­tune to swear at vnawares, so that I shal be afraid of him in euery word I speak.

Heere is but simple cheare this mor­ning, because it is fasting-day.

M. Tertullus wil eat no egges to day: will you M. Demetrius?

Yea by S. Mary, I am a protestant, for I loue to eate flesh on the friday.

It is well said, but I pray you, thinke not ill of me M. Tertullus for it, for saint Paul hath taught vs, that we that eate, should not indge them that eate not; for wee being strong, must beare with the infirmities of the weake.

You promised yester-night to sende for the Puritane, to talke further with him, I pray you do so, for I woulde haue him taunted thorowlie.

By my troth I hadde forgotten him, mine host, call him.

Heere is the Gentleman you willed me to call.

You are welcome, this Gentleman M. Demetrius telleth me, that you, and hee, had great controuersie on the wap yesterday, and he is very defirous that I [Page] might heare your reasons, and giue my iudgement of them for his satisfaction.

Sir, I saide nothing to hym but the truth out of the worde of God, in con­demning of vsurie, by which he saide he liued, and shewed him the horriblenesse of the sinne, the inconueniences tem­porall that come of it in the common­wealth, and the iudgements of God a­gainst the practises thereof.

Vsurie in deed in some sort is vnlaw­full, but it seemeth that you dealt not with the man, as meaning to win him, but rather by such sharpenes as might harden him.

Surely my desire was to winne him, and therefore my purpose in reasoning was, to lay open the sinne vnto him, and the cause why I dealt som what round­ly, was this: hee confessed the scriptures that I alleadged, but so cauelled and wrangled against the cleare light there­in conteined, that it appeared vnto me his purpose was, not onely to abide an vsurer, but also to iustifie it by the word of God.

Such chollerike fellowes as you doe marre al, for you cannot deale mildely, [Page] and so you trouble the conscience, and disquiet the minde of the weake.

His conscience must be troubled by launcing, before that euer his soule can be cured.

Then I perceiue you like wel of them that prech the law so much as they do.

Yea, or else should I not like of brin­ging men vnto Christ, which can neuer be vntil they be humbled by the law, & made pure therby to receue the gospel.

Doe you not also like of them, prea­ching of predestination?

Yea, or els should I dislike of preach­ing the truth, for it is a part of Gods re­uealed will.

So do not I in these dais, when there bee so many weake ones, I thinke it to be a very breake-necke of all religion.

I haue heard of free-will men, that haue saide so, but I neuer heard man of learning affirme it, but one that was a Bishoppe in a Sermon, but his wordes were no lesse than blasphemie, and so are yours, and al they that say or think the same are guiltie of no lesse sinne.

Are you a Preacher and speake so of these reuerend fathers, it may be your [Page] own ordinary to whom you are sworne to giue canonicall obedience.

It was the Bishop indeede, who vsur­ped euen the place where I dwelt, but I neuet sware him anie obedience.

Well, we are gone from our matter.

And I pray you let vs tarry a little longer from it, to consider one thing before wee doe returne, which the tal­king of the Bishops bringeth into my head.

What is that?

Surely, that I thinke you are either a B. or else brought vp in the schoole of a B. and woulde faine be one, for you doe vse your selfe verie like, as I haue knowne them do.

Wherein?

In this, that wheras we reasoning of vsurie, wherein your conscience is clear within, you are contented for the fauor of him, and for that you like not me, to maintain the same, and to disgrace the truth, because of the partie that defen­deth it, who is not according to your humor.

You may bee ashamed to speake to of these holy fathers, I dare say, that [Page] none of them euer did so.

If mine eares had not heard it, mine eies seene, & mine owne person had not felt the experience thereof, I shoulde haue beene of your minde, for I once li­ked them, and their verie wicked dea­lings made mee looke into the lawful­nes of their calling, which I see now to be meere Antichristian: but shall I tell you one example among manic?

I am willing to heare you, but I can neuer be brought to thinke so.

Yet will I tell it you, that you may thinke of it, I was accused vnto the B. of such crimes as were most slaunde­rous and false, where vpon I desired him to send for mine accusers, and see how they coulde prooue, that I (if I were con [...]icted) might be punished, or else they might haue the rewarde that mo­lesters of the preachers of the Gospell do deserue: he graunted it me, and ap­poynted a day, which being come, ra­ther than I (whome hee thought not to fauor his authoritie) should haue anie helpe at his handes, hee made mee a sleeueles aunswere, and sent mee away. Thus are Byshoppes coutented to bee [Page] bawdes vnto al kinde of sinners, rather than they will any way seeme to further the ministerie of those whome they fa­uour not, and euen thus doe you: for your hatred vnto my person, maketh you to stand with that monstrous vsu­rer, but take hecde of it, for God will not be mocked, he seeth your dealing, and will iudge you accordingly, how­soeuer you can pretend the contrarie to the world.

As for mine owne part, I passe not what you speake: but let me aske you one question concerning these holie fa­thers, and that is this, what reason is there that they should do anie good in any respect vnto any of you, seeing they knowe you to bee professed foes vnto their dignities.

Because they taking themselues to be the fathers of the Church, shoulde haue a regarde to the good cause, and defend it without respect of persons.

No sir, I see no reason in that, for a­boue all things, they must look to thē ­selues, without whose authoritie the Gospell would be troden vnder foote: and therfore they may defend no cause [Page] nor person further than may stand with their owne safety.

Suppose that were lawfull, what hin­derance is this to themselues, to see thē that bee common and knowne drun­kards, vsurers, adulterers, and profane persons punished, for that they are rai­lers at me, for teaching the 'trueth of religion, and reproouing sharply their godlesse conuersation.

Oh you are a simple man, it is great hinderance, for they can do nothing in defence of you, though it be in matters wherein you and they doe agree, but it tendeth to the derogation of their own estimation, such is the contrarietie be­twixt your building and theirs.

By that meanes shall we be so weari­ed with aduersaries, that we shal neuer haue any hope to doe good, but euen to be constrained to giue ouer the mi­nisterie.

I woulde I might see that once come to passe, we haue laboured for it hither­to, and neuer could attaine vnto it ney­ther will the Church euer bee in quiet vntill you all be turned out.

So thought the Sodomites, that they [Page] should neuer be wel, so long as Lot was in their citie; but when he was gone, fire from heauen consumed them: but I pray you tell me, if all were turned out, how should the people be taught, for it is euident, that none else (almost) ma­keth a conscience of his duty that way.

You think teaching wold faile with­out you: No sir, teaching woulde bee more regarded than it is.

Shew me how that can be.

Wee woulde haue none to preach a­boue once a moneth, and then shoulde he doe it profoundly, and confirme his matter out of the fathers, and humane writers substantially, whereas you ta­king vpon you to preach three or foure times a week, must not onely of neces­sitie handle your matters verie rawlie, but also breede loathsomnesse in the people.

Surely my hart waxeth cold, and my flesh trembleth to heare you speake so monstrously: dooth preaching consist in quoting of doctors, and alleadging of Poets and Philosophers, in what part of his commission hath a minister war rant so to do? You finde fault with our [Page] often preaching, because your selues cannot so doe, but if you woulde leaue off your vaine glory, in hunting after promotion, and your couetousnesse in adding murther vnto theft, I meane li­uing to liuing, and betake your selues to study and praier, bending your whole indeuor to the glorie of God, and edi­fying of his people, you should see the blessing of God so aboundantly vppon you, that you shold preach foure times euery week, with more fruite than you can doe nowe foure times euery yeare, for while you bee minded as you are, the Lords iudgment is vpon your gifts, and his cursse vpon your labours, that you appeare ridiculous euen vnto chil­dren. And whereas you say often prea­ching cloyeth the people, you shewe your selfe plainely to haue no feeling in the sweetnes of the worde of God: for it is so delightfull vnto the childe of God, that the more he heareth and rea­deth it, the more desirous is he to pro­ceede therein, it is the propertie of the vngodly, to whome the word is foolish­nes to be cloied with the same.

You shal not be my teacher, neither [Page] wil I learne at your hands, I know wel inough what I haue to do.

I do not speak as a teacher vnto you, but in brotherly loue doo admonishe you, and if you refuse mine (or rather the councell of the holie-ghost vttered by me) you doo but as they do, whose condition you defend, I pray God for­giue it you, and lay it neither to your nor their charge.

They are great moates in your eies, they know better what to do than you can tell them, they see what is meet for the Church, being auncient graue men of long experience, better than a sort of yong boyes start vp but yesterday.

Though some be but yong, yet al are not so, for we haue some more ancient than they haue any, we haue of all ages and degrees of Schooles to compare with the best of them, and yet yeares, and humane learning, and experience, must not carrie away the matter, but the euidence of truth in the old & new Testament, and as for experience, they haue none, for they were first brought vppe in the vniuersities, then became Deanes, and such iollie fellowes, and [Page] nowe are made Mitred Lordes, so that they cannot tel what it is to traine vp a people to the gospel, & reclaime them from ignorance and sinne, for they ne­uer stouped so lowe as to labour there­in, but if they had euen my experience, they would sing an other song, for be­fore I came into the haruest to worke, I liked their hierarchy wel inough, but when I laid it to my labours to further them, I found that they coulde not pos­sibly stand together.

Did the gospell euer so flourishe in Englād as it doth now at this present?

No surely, God be praised for it, and encrease it more & more, but to what end do you speake it?

To prooue that the authoritie, and wise gouernement of the Bishops hath had good successe.

I thought so, but it is (if you woulde looke into the matter with a single eie) cleane contrarie, for the good that hath bin done, the Lorde hath brought it to passe by these menne whome you despise, and by that course which the Bishops were euer enemies vnto.

How can you proue that I pray you, [Page] let mee heare your reasons that mooue you to thinke so, for I am perswaded of the cleane contrarie.

It serueth not in this case what you are perswaded of, for a Bishoptick hath so blinded your eies, & corrupted your iudgement, that you like nothing but that which agreeth therewithall, but I will shew you my reasons that maketh me of that iudgement, and if you look equallie into the matter, or aske anie indifferent man, you shall see it to bee so.

Shew mee them, for I long to heare them, I am sure they be wise stuffe.

First for the men, what congregatiō, what towne or people is there in this land, that they haue bene in the raigne of our soueraine Q. Elizabeth, conuer­ted to the gospell, that those men haue not bene the instruments to performe, whome the Bishops haue continuallie persecuted, and for the courses that haue bene taken, and which God hath greatly blessed, which of them haue not bin ouerturned by the Bish. and the preachers put to silence, assoone as e­uer the gospell beganne to appeare: On [Page] the other side, tell me if you be able, of any such effect of the ministerie of a B. or bishoplie preacher, in anie place of this land, though it hath beene inter­rupted these twelue yeeres, as you shal see in many places by the other sort, e­uen in few moneths now and then, so that the matter is not onelie cleare vn­to all that will weigh it in the ballance of equitie, but vnto me, if I had no rea­son, it is an euidēt proofe that they take the right way, whose labours the Lorde doth so blesse, and contrariwise, the curse of God is on the other, for their indirect dealing.

Thus you imagin because you please your selfe in your owne peeuish waies, but tell me who are of your opinion: e­uen a few Puritans like your selfe.

Call vs as you list, Christ was neuer the woorse for that his ennemies called him a seducer, & a deceiuer of the peo­ple, but I am sure (all for the most parte that feare God) of euerie degree and calling, are of the same minde, sauing those whom you by your sutleties haue be witched.

You will haue but a few then in this [Page] land that feare God, and so you will condemne the rest, which is the maner of all of you.

I condemne none, I wishe that not a few, but all (if it were possible) did true­ly feare God, but I woulde haue you learne of Christ wyth me, who may without disgrace be your teacher, to trie the tree by the fruit, and seeke me out that man which maketh a consci­ence of sinne, and hath a care to liue as a christian, that is not of the same mind with vs: on the other side marke what kinde of men they be, that are the pa­trous and defenders of the Bishops, and you shal see them to be men that make no reckoning of sinne, but haue their wayes fraughted with all impietie, if they bee ttied with the touchstone of Gods word.

Well then you confesse yet, that the generall sway goeth on our side, and so long as it is so, we care not.

I wil easily grant it, and so haue they from the beginning, and shall to the en­ding of the world (against all goodnes) but I will tel you one thing euen of thē, that few of them like you indeed.

How can these twoo stand together, many are with vs, & few like of vs, they be meere contrary?

I wil tel you how, the Papist is on the Bi. side, because he can finde shilter vn­der them to hide his idolatry. The athe­ist is tooth and naile for them, because by them he enioieth carnal libertie, the man of most notorious life defendeth thē, bieause he can frō thē, redeeme the corporal punishment of his sins by mo­ny, but none of these like of thē indeed; The first, because they keepe the posses­sion of the seats of their popish prelats, the other, because they are so greedie in their courts for money, that euen e­uery man crieth shame on them, who then do loue them indeed, and sticke to them onely? these three hang-bies, that depend vpon them, and liue by them, as their chaplains and seruants, the Ca­nanits (I should say) the Canonists, and such ministers as either cannot, or will not, labour in their function, to con­uert soules vnto God, so that they doo stincke in the nostrels both of God & man, especially in these three last yeeres of their tyrannie, that I doe verily hope [Page] their sinne is very neare the heigth, and the Lord in mercy will ease vs of them shortly.

You are a strange fellow, and please your selfe with wonderful perswasions, but I pray you tel me, what maketh you say they are now more hated, seeing that in the last yeares, the best meanes haue bin vsed to establishe the ministe­ry in a consent and conformitie vnto them.

Let the meanes be as good as it will, I praise God for the successe of it, how­soeuer the contrary was meant.

Why praise you God for it, I am sure you neuer liked of it?

The meanes indeede, I neuer liked, neither I thinke, did euer any reasona­ble man, but it being a britle wall, daw­bed with vntempered morter, had that successe that such sandie foundations do deserue.

Why man, what successe had it, I am sure the greatest part, yea euen of your forwardest men subscribed: and those that did not, are not like to [...]arry in the Church very long.

Wel, sooth vp your selfe in your own [Page] perswasion, and brag of the multitude of subscribers, if it were to doo againe, hundreds of them would neuer doo it, because they were subtilly circumuen­ted and deceiued (they meaning well, & tendring the peace of the Church) but (being now sorie for it) wil stand in de­fence of the cause (I dare say for them) with their brethren, euen vnto death: So that the Bysh, haue but their names written: And yet that if they would al­so, shew the protestations and condici­ons, by which they were induced, and wherof the B. made alowance, it wold plainely appeare, that either they dealt wickedly to admit exceptions, if the articles were true, or more vngodly if they were not, euer to attempt any such matter.

Tell me now, what is that wherein you seeme to reioice, as though the is­sue of it fell on your side?

It is euen this, that the Bish. straight dealing made men to looke so narrow­ly into the cause, and to seeke the rea­sons on both sides, for their owne satis­faction, that there are at this day (I am fullie perswaded) tenne times as manie [Page] of all degrees, that are fully perswaded of the matters of reformation as were before, so gracious God is vnto his ser­uaunts, to make euen their enemies to do them good, and so tender is hee o­uer his owne cause and glorie, that he wil make the verie meanes intended to oppugne it, be notable wayes to ad­uance it.

I do not beleeue you, albeit I cannot controll you in it, because I haue not bin in England of late, but what will come of it, if it be so?

Euen the gouernment of the church, by the rules of that discipline whiche Christ him selfe hath prescribed in his word, which I do perswade my selfe to see before it be long.

You woulde be examined before a iustice & punished, for saying you hope to see an alteration, you cannot be the Q. friend that thus looke for innouati­ons in the state.

Examine me when you will, and pu­nish me as God shall giue you leaue, I will be tried to be so far the Q. friend, as that I wish so well vnto hir as vnto mine owne soule, and all that I saye or [Page] desire, is not to inuert any thing in the state that is good, but to haue the cor­ruption thereof remooued, and hir ma­iestie more honoured before God and men, in drawing more neare vnto hir God, in aduauncing the kingdome of his sonne more gloriously within hir dominions.

These be but fained wordes, I do not beleeue that you speake as you thinke.

It is bicause you measure me by your selfe, who indeede care neither for Qu. Countrey, nor your owne soule, but for a Bishoppricke, but I thanke God in Christ, my conscience beareth me wit­nesse that they be all verie deare vnto me.

Away thou railing hypocrite, I will talke with thee no longer, if I catch thee in London, I will make thee kisse the Clincke for this geare.

Indeede the Clincke, Gate-house, White-lion, & the fleet haue bin your onely arguments whereby you haue prooued your causes these manie yeres, but you shall preuaile no longer, for your wickednesse is made manifest vn­to all men, which God will shortlie re­pay [Page] into your own bosoms seuen fold, but pray you to God to giue you re­pentance that those things happen not vnto you.

Pray thou for thy selfe, and care not for mee; I knowe well inough what I haue to do without thy counsell, but it is your manner to teach all men.

Out vpon him, what a fellowe is this my Lord? I neuer heard such a one in my life.

I can tell you, he gesseth shrewdlie I per eiue, that our course which wee haue taken, and our intent in our acti­ons haue bin descried by one meanes or other.

My lord, it was a thing obserued in the Puritans at Geneua, and in France, while I was in Rhemes, that we could neuer inuent anie practise, for the fur­theraunce of the Catholique religion, but they knew it often before wee put it in execution, so that for the moste part, they preuent all our determinati­ons.

Howsoeuer it be, I am wonderfully sorie that they seeme so to triumph, and that our matters haue no better [Page] successe, it behoueth vs to looke about vs, we will speed our selues to London, to take some way in hast, least it be too late: in the meane while, I pray you tell me, for you must be my counseller whé all is done, what way you thinke best to be taken.

I will doo the best I can, I must first request one thing of you before I ioine to help you.

What is that? if it be not vnreasona­ble you may assure your selfe of it, for you know that I haue neuer bin strait laced against you nor anye of your friends.

I doubt not of it, but how can I haue it before I aske it of you? you know, that we receiued letters from England, that there were verie hard lawes made this last parliament against the Catho­likes: this is it therfore I must request, that you would vse meanes that the ri­gour of them be not inforced, for you knowe that wee haue many, both in Court and countrey, that shall else bee in great danger.

I am verie well contented to doo so, but what way shall I take to do it?

Surely, such a way as shall also make greatly for your owne cause, and that is this, complaine of the domesticall, for the Puritan, and say, that they bee woorse than we, and that you shall ne­uer preuaile against vs, vntill first they be suppressed, and desire that we may be let alone for a time, and that al men would bend their forces against them.

This is excellent, I am verie willing to do this, for it will helpe forward our owne cause: nowe go on and tell mee what is to be doone further.

The first thing you must take in hād, must be the suppression of those prea­chers in London, and in other coun­tries that be of most speciall note, for their forwardnes against you, and you must do it verie wisly: that is, you may not suppresse them all at once, neither all of them in a long time, for you must take heede that the world do not con­ceiue opinion of you, to be enemies to the Gospell, for then haue you no way but to turne wholie vnto vs.

That will be a verie good way, but how shall we haue good matter against them, for their liues are thought to be [Page] very vpright, and they haue learned of late to be more pollitike than heereto­fore: for if they speak against any thing established, they doo it so cunningly, that aduantage can not be taken against them by law?

Neuer doubt of that, was there euer any man that went to beat a dogge, but he could easily finde out a staffe to doo it, you must in this case preferre your safetie before your credit, or the esti­mation of anye that belongeth vnto you?

Yea, but shew me some particulars, for I promise you, I see not how to doo it.

You must be sure to let none preach at Paules crosse, but they of whom you haue experience to like wel of you, and you must giue them instructions before hand, that they do inuey mightilie a­gainst the reformation that our aduer­saries desire, and there wil one or other of them speake against that, and so you may haue sufficient aduantage against them.

But these fellowes be very sharpe to find a fault: What and if the matter [Page] which our friend preacheth be false, & so the other take occasion to cōfute it?

Then must you vrge him to defende that which he hath said, and so shal you haue more occasion to intrap the ad­uersarie.

But in so doing, he whome we set on worke shall lose his credit.

What and if he do, do you compare his credit with the waight of your Bi­shoprickes? There is no comparison.

You say true, but what if it shall fall out, that the aduersarie be not blame­worthy, neither in matter nor manner?

If hee maintaine the controuersie it is sufficient cause to put him to silence though he haue the better part, for you must maintain the peace of the Church.

But this is not all, for how shall we do for the courte, that is the place, which aboue all we must fortifie, or els we are gone?

Indeede there is great care to be had of it, and there be many waies to pre­uent vs there, but we will doo what we can in it. First you must take heed from time to time, what chaplains be put to the queene, seing they are the teachers [Page] of the whole court, namelie, that they be eloquent of toong, and good com­panions, not too precise in their con­uersation.

It is very true, for they may els marre all, I haue heard some of them speake dangerouslie, euen before hir Maie­stie.

Therefore you must take heede, that they be such as can be contented with the course of the worlde, and then if they happen to speake home nowe and then, as it is a thing incident vnto a re­thoritian to be girding, the Courtiers will neuer regarde his words, because thee see hee walketh not according to that himselfe.

But I am afraid that the court shal in time come to knowlege by their prea­ching, aod then we are gone.

Feare not that, I read once in a Book made by one nf the Puritanes, that if a man woulde haue the blessing of God (as he termed it) vpon his hearing, hee must submit him selfe to an ordinarie teacher, which thing I promise you is somewhat: for I see, that the greatest knowledge of their religion, as in those [Page] places, and men, that haue that same ordinarie teacher, and therefore keepe them from any more preaching, than one sunday in the moneth, and that by diuers men, and I warrant you that gappe is stopped for euer.

It is something that you say, & I will not forget to looke vnto it, but there is an other thing which is greater than that, which is, how wee may keepe the Queene on our side, for I haue often feared her, seeing (there is no question) but she is grounded in the foundation of religion.

Howe haue you kept in with her all this while?

Marie thus, we haue bene verie care­full to take heede who be admitted to preach before her in the Lent: There was one Deering, that by our negli­gence preached, if he and such as hee, hadde but continued the whole Lent, I am afraide, there would haue bene ne­uer a lord Bishop left in England be­fore the next Lent had come againe.

That I like very well, but that is not all, they wil make books, and it can not bee but some of them doo come to hir [Page] hands, how wil you do if she like wel of them, and the matter of Discipline in them?

I promise you I cannot tel, you must help vs that dead lift, or els wee are vn­doone.

It is an easie matter to remedie, you must when you heare hir speake of such things, make hir beleeue that all is wel, and that the drift of these men is not seene, for they would haue no magi­strare, and so would pull downe Kinges and Princes, and this wil be sure to pre­uaile, and make them to be esteemed the vilest men aliue.

Howe can I tell hir that all is well, when I haue bin constrained to tell di­uers Preachers, that haue so sore vrged mee with the text, that I coulde wishe things were amended, but the Q. will not at any hand?

Surely, you are a very simple man (my Lorde) as though the Queene heares what you say vnto them, or they, what you say to the Queene, you must still continue that course of excusing all things to hir, for shee beleeueth that you are learned, and lay all the blame [Page] when you talke with them on hir: for you cannot ouerthrow them by Scrip­ture, and so you shall not onelie keepe the Q on your side, but also make the Preachers haue a tollerable opinion of you, that you would haue some thinges reformed if it lay in you.

That is a notable way, I will alwaies obserue and practise that, but there be many Noble men, Counsellers, greate courtiers that seeme to like well of our aduersaries: how shall we do to retaine them, or to bridle them that are gone from vs?

That will be some what hard to doo: yet the best counsell I can see meete to be taken, is this: you must shewe your selues very affectious vnto those that desire glorie and estimation, you must winke at the vices of all of them what­soeuer they be, and not reproue them, much lesse correct them, and those of them that be needie, you must haue them to beg the Bishopprickes, Dean­r [...]es, and such great places, & let them that shall haue them pay well for them. So shall you not onelie haue them be­holding vnto you for a benefite, but [Page] keepe them still on your side, in hope to haue the like bootie an other time.

This is very well, and shal be always obserued: but there is yet an other thing I heard of late, that there be verie manie Gentlemen and Gentlewomen in the Court that like vs not, and it hath often times bene, that Kings and Princes haue beene induced by infor­mation of meane menne, to doo that which great Counsellours coulde not be at into their heads, how shall we do to stay the mischiefe that may come of these?

Easilie, you must consider that they be of two sortes, either they be such as be highly in fauor, or they be common courtiers: if they be of the former sort, you must when you haue oportunitie to speake to hir, tell hir, that she must take heede of such, and such persons: for though they be verie wise and dis­creete, because you must not dislike anie that shee liketh, yet are they (be­ing of a good nature) deceiued, by the faire pretence of Puritans, & for them, you must saye they doo greate harme, by reason of their countenaunce in the [Page] court, with fauouring the Puritans, so that it shall come to passe, by these in­formations, that the Queene shall not onely reiect their speeches (if they vse any against you) but also take them vp roundly, that they shall not dare to speake any more.

This pleaseth me at the verie heart, but how shall wee doo to be sure in the counsell table, for they are wise, and many of them like vs but from the teeth outward, and wee haue receiued many a foile there?

That is euen the hardest of all: I know not in the whole world any way but one.

Tell me that one, for if once I know it, we wil say well to it but we wil bring it to passe.

This is it: in King Edwardes dayes, there were Bish. of the counsell: now if you could get, though it were but one to be a counseller, then might hee verie well, whensoeuer any matter of com­plaint came, tel the lords it pertained to ecclesiasticall iurisdiction, and he & his brethren woulde heare it at large: so might he stop their mouthes quickelie, [Page] and then hee might for fashions sake heare the cause, but send the plaintifes away with a flea in their eare. And thus very quickly woulde all complaints to the counsell cease.

Oh moste notable deuice, all our friends in England shal faile vs, but we wil haue this take place: there is yet an other thing that must be helped, and that is the vniuersities, for they haue great priuiledges, and Puritans start vp there euery day.

So there will do some, doo what you can, vnlesse you haue a fire and a fagot, which weapon of ours, you only lacke, and none but it: the best course that I knowe to be taken is this, let no Col­ledge choose his owne head, but let him haue a Mandamus, procured from the Queene, and see that he be such a one, as hath bene a non resident before, and let him haue diuers liuings: and so that will draw with it formalitie. Let him be the Q. chaplaine, or at the least broght nowe and then to preache in the Lent, and that will so set hym a gog for a Bi­shopricke, that you shall be sure he wil suppresse your aduersaries as they a­rise, [Page] and let the heades of the houses be admonished from time to time, that they choose none to be fellows that be Puritans, but such as like the estate, and for the more assurance, let them be vr­ged to subscribe, yea to sweare to your authoritie, before they be admitted.

Shall we go by Cambridge, & see this put in execution as we go?

Nay soft, be sure of the court, before you enterprise any other where, least you marre all.

You say very wel, nowe how shal we doo for the parsons and vickars, of the country that like vs not?

I promise you those that be in alrea­dy, will saye harde vnto you, and those that be to come also, if they will sub­scribe to the articles, so far as they cō ­cerne faith and sacraments, the statute law fauors them too much.

But haue wee no helpe by the can­non law?

Yes, there is helpe inough in the can­non law, if they will take it: but I will tell you one thing in your eare, which I would not for a thousand pounds were knowne abroad, and that is this: if the [Page] statute made in the 28. of H. oct. cap. 19 and the reuiuing of it in the 1. of Eli­zabeth cap. 1. were thorowlie sifted, I am afraid, not any cannon law woulde be found good lawe in England, and so what would become of you, and your aucthoritie? But I know to whom I do speake it.

What shall we do then?

You must set a good face vppon the matter, and pretend law, both statute, and cannon, especially cannon, bicause they know not that they depriue them of their liuings, which if you (though they know you do them wrong) could remedy it by law, yet are not their pur­ses so wel filled as yours, and so lacke of liuing will make them to yeelde at length, as we see it hath done many.

But may we not wel suppresse them, for not vsing the surplice, and booke of common praier in all points?

I tell you there is no law in England to hurt them, for any thing that they haue done concerning the surplice, the iudges hauing beene set on by you, and vs, haue indited them for it, but it is more than they canne warrant by law, [Page] and as for the booke it is cleare, that the strickt keeping of it was meant a­gainst vs, but we thanke you for tur­ning the edge to them from vs. Sumna­ries must be your best helpe in this case, and looke that you practise it continu­allie.

This wil do very wel, how shal we do to keepe the Ministerie from too much knowledge, for that must bee doone, though we pretend the contrarie?

Indeede it is a thing that you must looke narrowlie vnto, and therefore take heed aboue al things, that the ex­ercises of prophesie come not vp again, for you know what harme they did vn­to you in euery place where they were kept, and especiallie where men were moderators therein, that had bene be­yond the seas, to see the practise of thē at Geneua, and you must beware of the exercises that ministers haue at their meetings: for you knowe, that in Lei­cester-shire, they furthered knowledge greatly.

But how shal we do with this, the ex­ercise of prophesie is expresly set down [Page] in the 14. Coloss. 1. to the Cor. and it is knowne, that they whome you and wee set on worke to get it forbidden, confessed since that they knewe it not, but tooke it to be foretelling of things to come, and not expounding of the scriptures.

You must answeare it as you do the rest of their reformatiō, the particulars where of are expressed in the new Testa­ment: namelie, that they were things onely for the time, and for them that helped you, what if they conf [...]ssed their ignorance, you must still excuse their exercises to bee vnlawfull assemblies, and [...]onuenticles to breede sectes and schismes, and your authority wil be are you out in all this and more too.

But what shall wee doo to make the world beleeue we woulde haue the mi­nisterie learned?

Make them first Ministers, and set them to schoole, enioining them to g [...]t som part of M. Nowels Catechisme, or of Bullingers Decades by heart, and so you shall seeme to desire a learned ministerie, aswell as these reformers.

Wee will not faile to put this also in practize, is there any more that you knowe, that may serue our turnes, for the further establishment of our digni­ties?

No nothing of any great waight, but it may be referred to some one of these points, but the particulars of euerye braunch are many, which your owne wisedome may easily looke vnto.

Then let vs go, for I long vntill I doo set these things abroach.

Yet I pray you remember to do som­thing for vs poore Catholikes, seeing you stand by our help especiallie.

Great reason we should do so, or els were we vngratefull creatures, but you must deuise what must be doone.

You know that some of vs be in pri­son, and others abroad, for those that are restrained, I pray you that they may haue their libertie of the prison, and their friendes to come to them, and when any of them come before you, that you would deale fauourablie with them.

Your request is verie reasonable, for [Page] the first you shal see that your friendes shall haue the best chambers in euerie prison, and when any Puritane falleth into our handes, you shal see him haue the most stincking place that can bee found. Now when any of you, yea if you your selfe come before vs, you must be content to let vs raile on you, & cal you traitor, & threaten you greeuously, but you shall be sure you shall sustaine smal harme, if you receiue any, you must im­pute it to the times and not to vs.

I thank your lordship, let vs now be going, for we haue tarried too long in our lodging this morning.

Hee neuer tarrieth too long that is wel employed, as we haue bene, it was the best morning that euer I spent.

How now mine host, what say you to these iollie fellows, had not they no­table talke?

Yes sir, I haue learned of them, that that will doo me good I hope.

What is that?

I haue learned howe to course our Preacher, and hee shall be sure of it, and though it cost mee the price of a [Page] tunne of wine.

Why, what dooth he that deserueth coursing?

What? Hee setteth men together by the eares, the towne was neuer at qui­et since he came, he teacheth such doc­trine as some doo like, and some not, and so they fall at variance.

I pray you tell me some particulars of the worst of all.

This for one: our towne standeth on vittelling, because it is a thorow-fare, and he preacheth against good fellow­ship (which hee calleth drunkennesse) and against playing at cardes and ta­bles, wherein if he might haue his will, I and my neighbors might go on beg­ging within one twelue-moneths, and he hath so preuailed, that I take not so much by foure poundes in a weeke, as I was woont to doo: yea I haue had ten shillings of one man in a weeke for drincke onelie, that will nowe scarce spend three, but I will looke vnto him.

Well mine hoste, deceyue not your selfe, I perceiue that you and I are in a wrong boxe, you are an enimy to the [Page] Preacher, because hee speaketh against your vnlawfull gaine, and so was I ye­sterday with him that tooke the same course to amend me: and I thought he had spoken falsly, because hee was a Puritan: and when I came to heare my matter debated, the bishop disalowed my course, and yet tooke my part. And why? Because I might defend him in his vnlawfull calling: But I see their ing­ling well inough, and if the man wyth whome I was so offended be not gone, I will talke further with him, for I per­ceiue that hee meant better vnto mee than they did.

I perceiue we shall haue a Puritan of you, if you would so faine speake with him, hee is but newe gone out at the gate, you may ride after him: but as for our Preacher, I will in hande with him, because I cannot tell howe I shall else gaine and maintaine my selfe as heretofore I haue doone.