A Christian reprofe against contention Wherin is declared and manifested a just defence of the Church against such slanderes and reproches which Sabine Staresmore hath layd vpon vs in his two bookes, the first being 16 questions, called a louing tender. The second is his preface and postscript befor and behind Mr. Answorths last sermon, and making a pretence by that to sett it out as a loue token, hee breetheth out his malice against vs: and lastly her is an answer to a letter written by Mr. Robinson, and sent to vs with the consent of his Church, which now Mr. Staresmore hath published to the world. To these things an answer is giuen by A.T.

A Christian reprofe against contention Wherin is declared and manifested a just defence of the Church against such slanderes and reproches which Sabine Staresmore hath layd vpon vs in his two bookes, the first being 16 questions, called a louing tender. The second is his preface and postscript befor and behind Mr. Answorths last sermon, and making a pretence by that to sett it out as a loue token, hee breetheth out his malice against vs: and lastly her is an answer to a letter written by Mr. Robinson, and sent to vs with the consent of his Church, which now Mr. Staresmore hath published to the world. To these things an answer is giuen by A.T.

A Christian reprofe against contention Wherin is declared and manifested a just defence of the Church against such slanderes and reproches which Sabine Staresmore hath layd vpon vs in his two bookes, the first being 16 questions, called a louing tender. The second is his preface and postscript befor and behind Mr. Answorths last sermon, and making a pretence by that to sett it out as a loue token, hee breetheth out his malice against vs: and lastly her is an answer to a letter written by Mr. Robinson, and sent to vs with the consent of his Church, which now Mr. Staresmore hath published to the world. To these things an answer is giuen by A.T.

Table of contents

Title page

To the Christian Reader.

A Christian Reprofe against Contention.

ANSWER.

THE COVENANT EXAMINED. ANSWER.

Here follow the Preface to the Letter.

ANSWER.

Hear follovveth the ansvvering of the Letter of the Church of Leyden. WEe receiued your letter Brethren, but not ansvvering either our expectation, or the vvaightnes of the bussines in hand. ANSWER.

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Fault escaped.

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A CHRISTIAN REPROFE AGAINST CONTENTION

Wherin is declared and manifested a just defence of the Church against such slanderes and reproches which Sabine Staresmore hath layd vpon vs in his two bookes, the first being 16. Questions, called A louing tender. The second is his Preface and Postscript befor and behind Mr. Answorths last Sermon, and making a pretence by that to sett it out as a loue token, hee breatheth out his malice against vs: and lastly her is an Answer to a Letter written by Mr. Robinson, and sent to vs with the consent of his Church, which now Mr. Staresmore hath published to the world.

To these things an Answer is giuen by A. T.

[...] us the foxes, the little foxes which destroy the vines, for our vines haue smale grapes.

Songes 2. 15.

How long halt yee betweene two opinions▪ if the Lord bee God, follow him: but if Baals bee hee, then go after him.

1. Kings 18. 21.

He that is first in his owne cause, is just: then commeth his neighbor, and maketh inquirie of him.

Prou. 18. 17.

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Imprinted in the yeare M. DC. XXXI.

To the Christian Reader.

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CHristian Reader, I giue thee to vnderstand: Wee haue not been forward to publish to the world these our co [...]trouersies, and this thou maist take knowledge of, because the first of these our opposites books, hath been in print so many yeares, being printed in the yeare 1623▪ being 16. Questions of their owne forming, in the which wee haue great wronge done vnto vs; yet haue wee patiently borne both that, and also that which they have printed the last yeare against vs, vntell such time wee heard by many witnesses, that our long silence hath turned to the hinderance of the trueth, and also our owne discredit: for diners haue been perswaded through our long silence, that wee are most in fault, or else wee would haue answered before this time▪ therfore for the trueth sake, & our owne defence, we though it need full to sett o [...] this Christian Reprofe vnto these our opposites, in the which thou maist see the great injury, they doe vnto the trueth and also vnto vs, by their vnjust imputations and slanderes, which they haue layd vpon vs: and althought for our selues wee could haue born these injuries in silence: yet for the trueth sake, and that none that haue a loue vnto the trueth, should be hindered or stomble thereat, therefore needfull it is that they should bee informed of the trueth of things as they are, in these our troubles, which by this short Answer, thou mayst take knowledge of. And although it consisteth of cōtrouersy, which it not so profitable, as some more heauenly meditations are: yet not withstanding the Lord doth suffer such things to arise, for the approuing of such as are faithfull: 1. Cor. 11. 18. 19 & that the people of God should not ly vpon the b [...]d of security: Songes the 5. 5. but keepe their Christian watch, knowing that Satan seeketh too surprise vs by many meanes & wayes▪ 1. Peter 5. 8. Act. 20. 31. for when he can not retaine vs, in the broad wayes of the world; then will he send out the s [...]oods of his persecutions, to see if hee can swallow vs vp in it, Reu. 12. 15. but when hee is restrained frō his purpose by the Lord, then will hee seek to ouerthrow vs by his ministers whom hee seduceth, euen in the Church of God, & so turne thē into shape, as if they were the ministers of righteousnesse, 2. Cor. 15. Act. 20. 29. 30. And of these things, gentle Reader, haue wee had our portion, diuers of vs hauing been persecuted by inprisonment, and many till death did insue, & others banneshed, & some loosing their right & inheiritāce, and must leaue it and be exsiled: yet these troubles are not so dangerous, nor yet so greuious vnto a sincere conscience, as seducers which a [...]se in the true Church: and many that haue gone through persecutions, yet haue been ouertaken by seducers, & drawne away frō the true way of God; yet this is no new [Page] thing as thou mayst see by those Scripturs before alledged: and as it was with the Churches of God of old, so is it at this present time with vs, for wee hauing gone through many persecutions, so haue wee had our part of trialls by decliners & seducers: and these our opposites hath greatly troubled vs with their errour, some they hath corrupted their with, & others they haue so incumbered their mindes, that they dayly trouble vs with Contention: and to bring their porposes about, they came most Lords dayes, diuers years & troubled vs with great desturbance, many haue been the prouocations, which they haue vsed towards vs to prouoke vs: so that wee may truely say, that as Paule had fought with beast at Ephesus, so haue wee at Amsterdam, fought with men of a beastlike conditiō, 1. Cor. 15. 32. & although I could say mor in these things, yet for the present I spare, to see if the Lord will worke vpō their hearts by this Christian Reprofe, which if it take not effect, but that they goe on to striue against the trueth, the Lord can giue a fit opportunity that their deedes may be fully layd open, cōcerning these things in question. And now Christian Reader, take thou heed, that thou stomble not at these things to forsake the trueth, for these things ought not to bee strange vnto thee, seeing the Apostells of Christ hath fortolde of these things, Act. 20. 29. 30. 2. Pet. 2. 1. 2. 3. yea & themselues were troubled with such trialles, whilles they were with the Churches, Actes 15. 2. Gal. 2. 4. 5. and som preaching Christ through enuie & strife, supposing to adde more affliction too the Apostells bandes, Phil. 1. 16. And hath not the Apostell told vs, that in these last dayes shall come perillous times, and that all sortes of sinnes shall abound? 2. Tim. 3. 1. 2. 3. which should teach vs to bee more watchfull, and to judge wisly of things, and not too bee offended at the trueth, or any part thereof; for it is the trueth that maketh vs free, Iohn 8. 31. 32. & yet when the Lord of glory was vpon the earth, which taught the trueth more excellent then euer did any, yet his owne Disciples went backe, & walked no more with him, stombling at his heauenly doctrine: seeing it is thus, that our corrupt nature is so soone caried a syde: how should wee desier of God, to haue the spirit of discerning, & of sincerity to walke in the trueth; & wheras wee haue been euill spoken of, too be cōtentious, and of fierry spirits, with many such like reproches: But what is the cause that wee are thus reproched? is it not because wee withstand errour and sinne: and suerly, although wee are weake men, yet hearin wee follow the examples of the Prophetes of God. Was not Moyses the meekest man vpon the earth▪ yet was hee stored vp many times to great anger, because of the sinnes of the people: and who is more redy to carpe at the zeale of Gods people, then louse persons, or lucke warme Christians, which are redy to say as Ahab, 2. Cron. 18. 7. that when the word of God is spoken for their reprofe, they thinke it is neuer well spoken to them, well for mens esteem wee passe not vpon it: but I turn my speech to such as are faithfull: if they haue the loue of the trueth, and if they haue a desier too keepe the Lords watch in his house, then I say to such as Iehu sayd too Iehonadab 2. Kings 10. 15. [...]f their hartes bee vpright to the Lord, & to vs as ours is vnto them, then let them no [...] stagger at these troubles: But come and helpe vs in our heauenly iourney: for great are the hinderances by our corrupt flesh and this world, and Satan hee vseth both these to insnare vs.

[Page]But for such as are corrupt, and vnder a pretence of peace, and lowlines of minde, Col. 2. 18. will either broch errour or plead for sinne; vnto such I say with Dauid, Psalm 119. 115. which saith: Depart from mee yee eu [...]ll doers, for I will keep the commandements of my God. And this I speake not of singularity, but because I find that our corrupt nature hath not need of helpers into sinne: for wee are subject of our selues to run into sinne dayly. And now Christian Reader, for as much as the diuell hath in these our dayes reuiued a new his ancient course, teaching of men to abuse the Name of God, in [...] vpon them to make a Couenant in their Antichristian estat, which is contrary to the word of God, and is a meanes, not only to insnar themselues, but also to draye, and insnare the people of God, which are escaped out of their bounds: but concerning this poinc [...], I refer thee to the 16. 17. 18. pages of this booke: And now that which I haue written, I commit it to thy judgment, in the which I pray thee bee not partiall, but read with consideration, and then with Moyses to say to him that doeth the wrong: Why smi [...]est thou thy fellow. Exodus 2. 13.

A Christian Reprofe against Contention.

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MR. Staesm: in the beginning of his booke settet downe as a cause of the publishing of Mr. Answorth Sarmon: To be a loue token of remembrance to his Brethren to in kindle theire affections to prayer that scandalles of many yeares continuance may be remoued that are bares to keepe many godly wise & judicious from vs, wherby wee might growe to further perfection againe.

ANSWER.

THat all the people of God ought to pray both for the prosperitie of the trueth and for the remouing of scandalles, that none may be hindered from the true walking in the trueth, it is their dutye so to doe. But is not Mr. S. the chiefe man which is the cause of the scandell nowe in question between vs, who all though wee did bear with him in his errour, and no doubte would so haue done vntill this day, and allwayes hee resting in peace yet was hee so bussie & vnrestty that hee is the chiefe man that hath brought this scandall or offence, therefore I aduertise him to remembare the saying of our Lord Iesus, woe be to the world because of offences, for it must needes be that offences shall come, but woe to be two the man by whome they come; and as Mr. S. hath begone the offence: so hee is the these man that may in part by the acknowledging of his sinne heale the breach, and so helpe to take away the offences which if God vouchsafe to give unto him, I shall be glad and I hope all the people of the Lord also: Mr. S. instructeth vs how to remoue scandall, and in thè meane time hee runeth one sweftly two intrease the scandall by publishing of his vnjust writings [Page] Hee telleth vs that the setting out of Mr. Answorths Sarmon is his loue taken: But is this so in deed why then hath hee placed such a swet flower betweene such bitter and poysoned earbes, placeing before it his vntrue preface, and be hind it his stoffing postscript wher by hee abuseth the word of the Lord, and belyeth his neybours as afterwards I shall shewe God willing: if this be the euent of Mr. S. loue. what maye wee thinke will the event of his hattred be: But may [...] not be justly feared such fruit as this that hee tocke an occasion to set out Mr. Answorths Sarmon, that so with it hee might send abroad his vnproffitable writings, and that hee might get the better sale which alone of them selfe would haue, but littel esteeme; But let not Mr. S. pretend loue in this: for loue 1. Cor. 13. thinketh not euill: But hee in this hath done euill: loue rejoyceth in the trueth.

But hee strifeth in errour and contention, therfore let Mr. S. feare that hee is guiltye of this Scripture, Prou. 26. 18. 19. 21. which saith: As a mad man casteth fire brandes arrowes & death, so is the man that dece [...]ueth his neighbour, and saith am not I in sport, so hee speaketh of loue, but hee casteth vntruethes scandalles, and reproches and errour.

M. Staes. in the beginning of his Preface showeth from the 1. Sam. 7. 2. how that the people of God lamented after the Lord, and as hee saith, the same affectione mee thinkes I perceive in many of you: to the which I answere, it ought not only to be the affectione of many: But of all: Gods people to lament the want of the Lords holy ordinances, and wheras hee speaketh of divers inconvenices for the want of the ministery, alas who will not grant it, and more then hee speaketh of, but wheras hee saith; Being divers times hurried & [...]orne. with the loud out cryes and hard handling of furious and vnmercifull spirits. These things will fall vpon the head of Mr. S. himselfe: but first I answer: that wee are but weake mene and do sin in our best actions, how much more in the handling of the matteres of controversie, in the which there is allwayes opposition, yea all though the cause be never so just.

And especially such subtill opposeres as Mr. S. and such as are with him be, and not only subtill, b [...]t violent and vnresty and labouring daily to corrupte others who should others wayes thinke. But that in these troubles in many things wee have sinned, I speake it to Godes glory and our owne shame▪ although the chiefe matter in [Page] countrouersy must ly vpon the head of Mr. S. wher it is due with all the euill euentes that doth follow hee being the cause of it. But vnto his clamours, I answer, although wee bee weake & subject to fayle, yet it followeth not therfore that his clamours are true: for what be the outcryes by the which hee or any are torn with all, I hope in countrouersy men must be answered, and if sinne be committed it ought to be blamed, but haue wee done as hee hath done, not only with his tong and pene to send letters, but also in print to send abroad his injurious writings by the which hee slandereth his neighbours, and not only once, but the second time as for example his 16. Questions set out the yeare▪ 1623. would not any man that readeth them thinke that they are our grounds that hee hath sett out by the way of question, whereas in deed they are his owne framing as they may fite his owne turne beste, yea some altogether false as question the 5. and others the like may not one of them are so sett downe as that wee will approue of it: therfore as Mr. S. hath done euill in making such questions, so hath the answerer, or made his answer according as his mind was declined: and as Mr. S. hath done vs Injurie in them, so hath hee now as I shall shewe, if wee had thus done vnto him then hee might have complained of outcryes. But hee is like a quarrelling man which layeth hard strokes vpon his neighbours, & with all crieth out that hee hath the injury: & if hee be so bold as to sett out in print such vntruethes against vs: what may wee thinke hee hath done in secret with his tong and pene wher wee cannot come to know it: a few words is convenient more to be spoken concerning his 16. Questions, hee saith in his Epistle that hee was much prouoked latly to further it by some amongst vs, I am doubtfull of it, although hee saith that diuers can witnesse it because I know how vnresty hee is, and how smale an occasion hee will take to be provoked vnto his end lesse strife, nay was it not rather that hee toke an occasion both then & now to sett his Printery a worke, for in deed if hee goeth one as hee doth begin hee may make great vollomes to idle contention: but I hope a Christian answer may satisfie a descret reader & to keepe to the mayne things that are different betweene vs, but if any did provoke Mr. S. I hope they did not provoke him to sett downe [...] nor yet to pervert our reasons by his owne formings. Hee saith these questions & answers were severall times tendered to our sight which [Page] wee would not vouchsafe to regard: to the which I answer neither doe wee regard them now, but doe retourne them to the former of them to whome they are due, & desire him as reason requireth that hee will giue his leaue to frame our owne groundes, as wee haue just occasions: and for our not receiving in to publique these questions & answers, by the answer allredye geven wherin is shewed how vntrue they are, are sufficiente, not to receive them, & also wee had experiance of his troublesomnes before: and should such things be read to the congregation moreouer it was signified that if they came with repentance wee were redy to hear it, and to receiue them with gladnes, but to read his forged writings in the Church wee have no warrant in the word of God, nor any example nor costome: And whereas hee saith: In these to our vnderstanding are comprehended the marrowe & substance of the things in difference betweene vs arising, both from that letter writ to London, the cause of our misery and other actions and dealinges occasioned from the same. To the which I answer first hee himselfe granteth. Them to be collected and composed questions in that hee saith: in these to our vnderstanding are comprehended, which as hee saith, did arise both from the letter and other actions and dealinges occasioned: Answer. But doth not our opposites knowne: that the [...] placeing of words or the lacking of a word: or the adding of a word may change the sence, & too whome made hee these questiōs, was is not to one that was corrupted with the same errour that he held euen as dipt as himselfe, and should wee not expect a good resolution: neither will the marrowe and substance of the differences betweene vs, appeare by such questions and answers, for som questions which hee gathereth, are amisshapen and wanteth that that should be with it, and some are false and it is no marveile: for hee saith they arise from actiōs and dealings occasioned: and who knoweth not that by such compositions wee may be very much wronged and so wee are in deed. But wher hee calleth our letter the cause of our misery. To the which I answer his errour and his vnrestynes in his errour is the cause of our misery in all these troubles in questions, and for the letter although it is infearme as it is by man composed, yet is it a worke of God by his people against errour & sinne, being the manifesting of our Iudgment confermed by the word of God against that Samaritanest Couenant: being there vnto called: and haue not wee the Scriptures plantyfull for [Page] our warrant, having the Prophetes and Apostels for our example, it being appart of our spirituall warfare against since and seed of the serp [...]nte to witnesse against such counterfait Couenant as the Prophet saith: Osea. 10. 4. They have spoken words swearing falsly in making a Covenant: and as Iohn saith, Reu. 2. 10. I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Iewes and are not, but are the Synagogue or Satan: and have wee not also an example in a such like cause as this in the Church of Ephesus which was commanded by the Holy Ghost Reu. 2. 2. for examining of them which saith they was Apostells, and are not: and hast found them liares. And should wee be blamed for examining of them as say they are visible Christians, and haue made a true Covenant when in deed they are found to be liares and this man: who is the chiefe cause of this our misery hath bin found falty in this respect long ago in London for hee went to Mr. Lee, and his people and desired of them Communion signifying to them that hee vvas as they ware: being in the same Covenant, & so got into theire Communion: But vvhen they came to heare that Mr. S. had deceiued them: ther vvas a meeting appointed betvvene Mr. Lee and his people, & Mr. Iacobe and his people, at the vvhich Mr. Sta. himselfe vvas presente and three other men vvhich aftervvards [...] members of our Church vvhich testified vnto vs, hovv things vvas caried: so being come together, Mr. Iacobe their manifested as the truth vvas that they never intented separation from the Church of England: appearing to Mr. S. I for vvitnesse saying their sittes Mr. S. [...] him gainsay it if hee can: to the vvhich speech, hee had not one vvord to gainsay: yet after this hee coming over to vs hee caried himselfe in the like manner tovvards vs, and vvee being ignorante hovv things did stand and hee concealing the truth, hee had almost dravvne our teacher to yeld to lett him communicate. But vvhen these 3. Brethren had given in their testimony hovv things did stand, then our teacher saith: That them it vvas to be considered other vvayes, & no doubt if the Lord had continued his life hee vvould haue discouered that Couenant in question, and yet for all this did this man continue in his vntrue speaking a long time after this saying that they vvere the most part separated, and vvhen hee vvas asked, vvhy hee did not then excepte against Mr. Iacobe vvhen hee appealled to him for vvitnesse: and being observed that your silence vvas a consent as in such causes it is offtentimes: [Page] to the vvhich hee ansvvered that it did not follovv, that because hee ansvvered not, that therfore it vvas so: and yet behold besides M. Iacobes testimony vvee sence haue other vvitnesse of [...] R. B. men, vvhich vvas at the Couenant making, that none of them [...] D. P. separated, and this is vnder ther ovvne hands ratified: and in one o [...] their testimonies vvhich vvas don by their eldere hee is blamed [...] as follovveth: vvhosoeuer shall say that they vvere separated, may vvel take shame vnto themselues, yea though it should bee M. S. himselfe, and vnto this vvriting is the hands of. Three more vvhich testifyeS. I. that all of them vvent to hearing in the Church of England afterE. H. the Couenant making to ther knovvledge: and novv seing that theseA. B. things are so in the vvhich this man hath gone beyond himselfe in the speciall ground from vvhence all these our troubles did arise, hovv should hee feare himselfe even in his errour, and to take heed hovv hee goeth one in his procedings least the Lord leaue him vnto hardnes of harte, and to blindnes of eyes, as a just recompence for striuen against the truth: or to lay a snar in Mizpach, to insnare the soules of men, or to doe as Balaam did, which taught Balac to put a stumbling blocke before the Children of Israell, which this man hath done, and doth in the maintaining of that Samaritanesh Couenant, as through the helpe of the Lord, I shall proue in due time: And none to retourne to Mr. S. Preface againe hee calleth vs vnmercyfull spirits, vvho vnder pretence of godly zeale, and hatred against sinne vngodly massacre the true and living members of Christ body. First I answer that if I should follow him in all his clamours and insinuations, & also his taking vp of mens weaknesse let fall in reasoning, and dispute which hee vseth to hide his ovvne faultes and transgressions: then I say vvee might haue vvorke enough to doe, and increase vnprofitable writtings. But let him knovv that all men of vvisdome vvill thinke it apo [...]re shifte to helpe himselfe with mens sinnes, or infirmityes to couer his ovvne sinnes, & so to auoide the maine matter in difference therfore fit it is: seing hee would not rest in his errour in peace: that novv hee should. Both justifie his errour and his vnrestynes in his errour, which vvas the cause of his casting out or else to fall vnder it: and to retourne with repentance, but seing hee hath vvritten vntru [...] ths I shall make a briefe ansvver vnto them: But first vvher hee saith vvee are furious & vnmercifull, vvith other reprochfull termes [Page] before named: hee should haue stayed himselfe in these things vntill such time as hee had made good his cause in question, for vvho is not just in ther ovvne cause in their conceite which be in contention as hee is, and therfore the euill of his reproches, and all the hinderances vnto the truth, which hee speaketh of must lye vpon himselfe, except hee could make his errour truth and his vnrestynes, with seeking to se [...] to be good and lavvful, which I knovv is more then hee is abell to doe. And for his quoting of Scriptures hovv largly and fitly might they all be applyed vpon himselfe as 1. Thess. 4. 1. might be applyed to him to show his busines before hee came to vs, and vvhill hee vvas vvith vs: and since hee vvas cast out being a raiser vp of contention so breaking those Scriptures Galat. [...]. 15. and 1. Cor. 11. 16. also for Rom. 16. 17. Hovv euidently doth that Scripture reproue his factious action, for the vvhich hee vvas cast out. But I leaue the manifesting of it vnto his propre place. And for the other whom hee saith are thrust out of the Church: vvhich vvitnesse for them I hope all men of vnderstanding may consider, that men that haue euill causes for the most part they lack not some partaker to assist them: And for them vvere they not as forvvard as any to cast out these tvvo opposites, yea more forvvard then many, and I am suer more forward then my selfe, and vvhat hath chāged theire mindes they say the meeting of the brethren aftervvards to be spoken of vvhich I may say is lese then affige leaue to couer there shame: and therefore may it not bee well feared that respects haue stollen awaye ther affectiō seing theire reason of change is of so little vvaight: and for this I can show reasons, but at this time I spare; because that some although justly touched: yet vvould bee to much moued, and although I could say more yet I stay here, knovving that such things doth, but tend to vaine [...]anglinge. But this man hath administred the cause to speake this. And wheras hee saith vvee reject the vvord of God & all vvholsome counsell for our amendement countrary to the very letter of the 38. article, and why did hee not shevv vvherin also: was it not because hee might doubt of the truth of his affirmation and suer, if it be layd vpon him for an vntruth, I see [...] hovv hee can shifte it for our article speaketh of the communion that all Churches haue for counsell, and helpe in all needfull things in the common faith, and this did wee practise in that our letter to the Church at London, in the vvhich this man did so much oppose vs, and [Page] hath made all this troubell, and also vvee practise that article as wee haue just occasion: But doth hee meane wee breake this article because wee doe not at his pleasure his will or the willes of such as h [...] stoureth vp to bring other Churches, to bee judges whether hee bee rightly cast out or not, if all that are cast out should haue that righte as I know not why hee should haue more right then others: then t [...] Churchs should haue worke enough to doe to looke to others businesses & to neglect their owne. But wee must learne to put a differance betweene that which concearneth the common faith, and the proper power that euery seuerall Church hath in it selfe: as for example in Reu. 2. and 3. chap. euery particular Church hath theire commandation or reprofe as they deserved: and as the Church of Pergamus was reproued for suffering of such as taught the Doctrine of Balaam, so needed they not to aske another church whether they should restraine them that so taught or, vvhether they should cast them out if they vvould not be restrained, or vvhen they had cast out anie to call for other Churches to knovv vvhether they had done vvel or not in so doing, especially to such Churches as vvere corrupted vvith the same errour, and hear obserue: that vvhen vvee did follovv our article in the sending our letter to the Church at London at theire request, then wee did euill as hee accounts, because it was against his errour. But novv vvee must follovv him although against reason, and bring our povver in to bondage or else hee vvill tell vs, vvee reject the vvord of God, and doe contrary to our ovvne article, hee telleth vs of our teachers speech vpon his deathbed concerning Christian moderation, suerly, the best of vs doth, come to shorte of it often times, but vvhy did hee himselfe so soone forget it, seing hee vvas so vnresty in his errour: for hee vvas theire, and heard his vvords. But they vvhom hee aymeth at to my best remembrance vvas not their: vpon vvhom hee taketh this occasion, to speake things not conuenient, and to bring in another mans speech vvhich helpeth not him in his matter to make it good or euill: neither will vvismen think it wisdome in him, to set out mens infirmities to the vvorld thinking therby to couer his owne: And for the causles troubles contrary to the Lavv and Gospell, which hee speaketh of that is to be proued by him, or they that can: vvhen vvee come to the pointe. Hee saith, the Church of Leyden hath plainly proued it too vs. I knovv not that they haue proue any such thing. But one [Page] thing I know that they take things for granted that are not so: as for example Mr. S. saith that wee doe contrary to the letter of the 8. position in our Apologie, wher hee would make others beleeve that his sinnes in question are, but matters of suspected euills, and not euills in deed, vvherin hee shall sind himselfe greatly deceiued when hee cometh to the triall therof: and wher hee saith certain discontented brethren made a meeting to change that solemne agreemēt of the church, the elder consenting and acting with them. Answer: How can this man cleare himselfe from a willfull vntrueth in this thing, seing their were diuers Brethren their and all vvitnesse except one man, that they did nothing, but desired the elder that in the writing of the letter that hee should be carefull to keepe to the true meaning and minde of the Church: in that their sentence and the reason why they did so desir him vvas because as they told the elder that some of those fevv contrary minded brethren did pervert the Churches meaning alredy: and that one which indeuoured to seeke and make matter about this meeting, yet in the publique when the thing was in question hee confessed and sayd, that their vvas nothing done or concluded by the brethren. Now this man being one that was present, and also being very willing to condemne the brethren, if he could haue don it, yet hee thus confessing, and all the brethren testifying as before is sayd, and denieth Mr. S. accusation, and Mr. S. hath bin told of these things although hee hath thus written: and doth hee not know, that if a thing bee denyed by on man, in any acte done that hee is accused of that one I say cannot be condemned, but by the mouth of tvvo constant witnesses: how then is this man guiltles which vvould condemne many, and yet not hauing one constant witnesse: & for that which hee saith the elder bringing the letter was blamed for writing contrary to the Churches joint agreement, and his owne promise would not hee make the reader beleeve that the Church blamed the elder; because their agreement was altered an that therfore the letter was tourned backe again: But vvas it not hee that blamed the elder, and the other three brethren that stod with him, for their vvas no more at that time that I can remember: But for the Church they knew their ovvne minde and excepted of it as their owne minde to condemne the Couenant. But because M. S. and another were produced for witnesse, and hee refused it and sayd the other vvould not do it neither: therfor was it willed [Page] the elder to put that thing out: and this was the tourning back of the letter. But hovv collerable doth hee sett it dovvne to make it fayer for his porpose: much like the diuells ancient oracle vvhich might [...] tourned tvvo vvayes, for hee telleth the reader, it was blamed, but hee telleth not by whome it was blamed, hee saith it vvas tourned backe: But hee telleth not vvherfore the Church tourned it backe: & wher hee saith, that the elder vvas vvilled to writ the first peacable agreement: it may be hee might so plead or so speake, but that the Church did so, it is not true: But as befor it hath bin signified, and why doth hee thus: is it not because hee would haue the reader to vnderstand it vvas because his errour vvas condemned which in deed vvas not so: and I am persuaded hee dares not say otherwayes although hee hath thus written. But their is one thing more to be spoken of: which is that hee and some with him, would bear vs downe: that the Church did not condemne the Couenant at the first, but left it vnjudged: to this I answer divers things briefly, & first I suppose that hee knoweth, that vpon his clamours and some vvith him that then the sentence of the Church was called, vvhich gaue their sentence: that they condemned the Couenant the first daye: 2. his ovvne friends vvhich as hee sayd witnessed for him: they I say tourning their mindes about towards Mr. S. they made 6. or 7. vveekes contention, saying that the Churches sentence vvas altered, and vvhy, sayd they, because the word false was added in the letter: therefore sayd they the Church condemned the Couenant sufficiently by other words. But the vvord false was auoyded for offence sake: thus it went on 6. or 7. weekes till the letter was looked into, and then it vvas found that the word false was not their. But to the thing in hād this is the testimony of his owne friends, but that which wee say or his ovvne friends haue sayd is nothing with him for hee will goe one needlesly to endlesse contention, 3. needlesse I say, for if it had bin as hee sayeth that the Church had not condemned the Couenant the first day, because they vvould not offend those few brethren: if then those few brethren, made an euill vs of it: I hope the Church had power to condemne it, afterwards for their owne preseruation both of their membres, and of the trueth: and who compelled the Church to consent: vvas it not because it was their ovvne minde to condemne the Couenant. But had the Church don as hee saith in that thing: then I say had hee done as the Prophet [Page] saith to lay a snar in Mizpha. 4. lett not him thinke that this Samaritanest Couenant should haue that priviledge which circoncision had which was the Lords seale of old to be laid downe in honnour, yet when it was abused, the Apostell left the vse thereof, and vvould not giue place for one hower: but is it a thing lickly that when the elder brought the letter to reade it, being but a weeke betweene that none of the Church could minde that the sentence vvas altered, but hee & them fevv vvith him for hee knovvs their is freedom of exception to [...]ll, but one thing more is to be obserued concerning the difference betvveene the dealing of this men, and those brethren vvhom hee accuseth in that meeting, for vvhen his matter vvas in the publique hee refused to debat the matter, but vvould haue it tourned to priuate, but those brethren whom hee accuseth, did not only lay dovvn vvhat they did in that their meeting, but offered themselfes to the triall of all that if any could shevv it to be otherwayes they should do it: and not only once, but divers times vvas this in question and allwayes they offering themselfes to triall.

And vvhereas hee speaketh of a thing yet worse, for either the elder alone or these priuy counsellers vvith him, stod not to this secōd agreement the Church made, but vvrote another with alteration, addition, and diminishing: besides the Churches knowledge and consent, and sent it for the churchs minde and act. Answer first, vvher hee speaketh of the second agreement, I knovv but one agreement, tvvise spoken of, and the occasion is manifested before, tvvo if the alteration which hee speaketh of, had bin by him sett dovvne: then it may be it would appeare to be, but that vvhich hee had commission from the Church to doe, as he himselfe granteth in some thing, but vvheras hee speaketh of adding and diminishing, these things are yet to proue, for I knovv not of any such thing: neither any man that I knovv of did see the letter or gaue any counsell concerning it, after it cam from the publique, but the elder himselfe.

But vvheras hee saith that they were cast out vpon a very suspicion that a fevv of them met to writ to contradict the Churches action. Answer, I can not but marueil at him, that hee should thus ran into this vntruth to say that it vvas but suspicion, did not hee himselfe confesse, yea of himselfe manifest, both to the elder, and also to others before it came to the Church besides some that heard the letter reade, [Page] and I hope hee dares not deny. But that hee did grante in the publique in the generall, that his letter was the apposing of the letter of the Church, although hee would not in the particulars debat the matters.

And after hee vvas cast out hee sayd, vvhat did hee, but take avvay the erronist grounds vvhich Mr. Delaycluce vvrit in the letter: and therfore he thinking his errour is a trueth, it may be hee thinketh so to deceiue the reader, so likevvise hee calleth the laying dovvne of the matter in the Church the false information of the elder, and that tvvo of them vvere singled out, and selected from the rest. First I ansvver, vvhat doth hee call the false information of the elder, I hope hee knoweth that both himselfe, & to other vvith him did manifeste to the elder themselses that they had vvritten in opposition to the Church, and so consequently contrary to that trueth, vvhich the Church maintained in the letter: vvas it not this that the elder informed the Church of, hee also saith that tvvo vvere singled out from the rest, in vvhich hee vvould giue the reader to vnderstand, as if all that those tvvo had got to their meeting, vvere at the first knowne vvheras in deed it vvas othervvayes: for although it was knovvne that they had a meeting to that porpose, yet euery particular person vvas not then knowne, but those tvvo opposites made knowne themselses to the elder of the Church pretending to him as if they vvould submit it to correction: the elder refused to meddle vvith it himselfe, but told them that it parteined to the Church; they consented to haue it come to the church, but vvhen it vvas propounded and laid downe their, then they refused to answer or to debat the matter, nor yet to deliuer vp the letter: and the reason that they pretended vvas, because the elder in the laying dovvne of the matter sayd that that vvhich they had done vvas a thing of an euill nott, and vvas this a sufficient reason to refuse to debat the matter: vvhat i [...] the elder had done like Moses Numb. 32. [...]4. or like the messenger of the Church, Iosua 22. 18. or like Ely 1. Sam. 1. 14. all these vvere directly charged vvith heauy charges and they vvere cleare, yet did they Christi [...]lik debat their matters, & cleared themselues, but these opposites [...]ere, but touched & presently they kiked, and so fullfilled the common prouerb that agalled horse backe is soon harte: but they ought rather to haue approued themselse or to haue submitted themselues to the meanes to come out of their sinne, as Dauid saith Psalm▪ 141. 5. Let the righteous smite mee, it shall be a [Page] kindnes: and let him reproue mee, it shall be an excellent oyle which shall not breake my head. Wher was their pretended committing it to correction when vpon so little occasion they refused triall in the [...]ght place where it should be tried. And for that speech which hee saith the informer speake that it might be holy, just & good: for ought hee knew, this was a speech spoken to prouoque him to ansvver [...]hilles they were a reasoning together. And the best of vs may escape words some times in reasoning that will not stand: yet is not this man the clearer for all that.

But wher hee saith that the matter was follovved by interrogatories to finde out sinne. Answer: sinne was found when his vnrestynes in his errour was found, and this being novv manifested, and layd dovvn to the Church, wee needed not make much cerching to find the sinne, but rather to vse the best meanes wee could to draw them out of their sinne which then did appeare: and hovv could this be done, but their must be questiōs or demandes, or as hee termeth them interrogatories, and a little after hee calleth them intraping demandes, but hee must not shifte the thing so, for did not hee alltogether refuse to debat the matter in the publique, saying they were not according to the rull Matth. 18. dealt with all, therfore they refused to debat the matter in the publique, and hee knoweth vvell, that when any is asked a question, that is not meet or reasonable they may, and doe refuse to ansvver, and so might hee have done if hee could haue shevved vnlawfull questions, but in that hee did refuse alltogether to answer or to debat, the matter therin was their sinne of opposing of gouernment, and hovv contrary vvere they in this to the seruants of God of old: Numb. 32. 14. 15. 16. Iosua 22. 21. Who although they were charged with heauy charges and had not sinned, yet they ansvvered and cleared themselues. But these although they had sinned, yet they refused to debat or to ansvver, and neglected the meanes to come out of their sinne: and for his saying it vvas contrary to Matth. 18. I refer the reader to the ansvver of his postscript. Hee saith that they were cast out without knowledge of sinnes, & also that they protested solemnly they had neither don the thing so suspected nor intended it. Ansvver, I still except against his word suspected, for the thing was plainly layd vpon them: for although at the first it was caried vvith a [...]low and safte vvords, saying that it vvas a thing of an euill nott, and that they [Page] ought to answer euen to apparences of euill in such publique matters of the Church as this was, and seing they did run vnto such an action, they ought to answer, and to that end vvas Iosua 22. and 1. Thes. 5. 22. brought the one shewing that Christians ought to keepe themselues from apparances of euill: the other Scripture shewing that if a Christian doth any thing that seemeth contrary to the Law of God, they ought to cleare themselues, and to this was added Actes 11. wh [...] Petter cleared himselfe, but all this could not persuad them to ansvver and to debat the matter, so when they still refused: their sinne was condemned by Ephes. 4. 3. 4. and 1. Cor. 3. 3. and other Scriptures, and by these Scriptures was their factious or vnlawfull meeting condemned as their refusall too ansvver vvas condemned, as befor is shewed: so then sinne was knowne before they vvere cast out: but what is that vvhich hee protested they had neither done nor intended it befor I haue shewed hovv they opposed the Church in the trueth, in that their vnlavvfull meeting, to the vvhich I ad this: they that maintaine an errour doe sinne Reu. 2. 14. they that seduce to errour doth sinne vers. 20. they that sequester apart of the church against the church, the church maintaining the trueth doth sinne Rom. 1 [...]. 17. and all this did they in that meeting, therfore when wee knew of their meeting to conferme that letter: vvee knew that all this vvas by them committed: but it may be hee will excepte, and say that the thing vvas not so layd downe to them at the first as now I doe, that is true, but were not they the cause of that that it was not, seing they refused to debat, the matter or to answer as I haue shewed therefore the sinne was condemned in the generalls, as I shewed before. But hovv shall wee vnderstand his protestation concerning his intendement, it may bee hee did not intend any euill, & why because hee minded it to be good, & for the trueth: but wee meddle not with his intendement, but with his action. Petter though hee intended good when hee parsuaded the Lord Iesus not to suffer at Ierusalem. But therin hee was an instrument of Satan to ouerthrow the saluation of all Gods electe, if Satan could haue preuailed by him, and as Petter good intend could not beare him out, seeing his deed was euill, yea although it was his ignorance, so will not his good intend helpe him, seing his deed vvas euill: Hee goeth one vvith many clamours after his manner, to the which I haue giuen some ansvver before. But where hee chargeth vs [Page] vvith partiallity for spearing of scandallous euills least our euill combination, should be weakned discouered or broken. Answer, if all that [...]ich this man saith were true, it might make vs appeare euill in the eyes of men: to the which end hee settes it out: that hee might coller his owne euills, but wee must minde it to be the fruites of his loue, and his loue token thus to do, for hee hath told vs in the beginning of his booke that therefore hee hath sett out Mr. Answorths sermon.

But would hee haue done Mr. Answorth that injury, but vpon this occasion hee might also power out his malice against vs: but to the thing in hand, I considered in my selfe what hee did meane by those scandalous euills, but I could not minde what hee aimed at, so I asked M. S. vvhat hee did meane by these scandallous sinnes hee speake of in his booke, but hee shifted mee of and would not tell mee; now what dealing is this that a man vvill sett out to the world such reproches, and refuse to manifest them to one that might vse meanes to helpe them, if their bee any: but let honnest men judge of this his doings. Hee saith further that irregular proceedings haue made our brethren in all places to hange downe their heads, and hee saith wee haue bin plainly certified from sundry churches. Ansvver that wee haue bin so certified from sundry churches, I know no such thing. But it is his manner if on man let a word fall, hee will apply it to all, as see the answer to his Postscript: now true it is, that one Church which receiued him to them by his Samaritanesh Couenant, they in deed do take his part or else they must condemne themselues, but for any more I knovv not any: But if it were so, it would not make him cleare in his matter; therfore let him leaue these clamours, and stand to the cause in differance, that [...]o hee may either approue himselfe or fall vnder it. And wheras hee saith now for these, and the like offences diuers that were of vs turn the backe vpon vs, and betake themselues to liue at large, as if now the dore of indifferency or libertinisme were sett open, that it matters not whome they heare or wher they walke.

THE COVENANT EXAMINED.
ANSWER.

BUt can hee spy the liuing at large of diuers that haue receiued the [...]rueth which novv haue declined, and can hee finde no other occasion [Page] vvhich they take for their stumbling, but those things which hee speaketh of: for those vvhich hee hath set down, I refere the reader to the answer giuen, but I can nam some friend of his, who hath rathe [...] opened the dore of indifferances wherby many hath taken occasion to decline. But first I say to him, is not hee the man himselfe, which hath made a pathe way for such libertins in the maintaining of that Coue nant of desemblation in the which hee vvould bring light and darknes in to one habitation, in that hee vvould make vs beleeue that antichristians neuer leauing their antichristian estat, are sit matter for to make a true Couenant with God, and that they can make a true Couenant, and so become visible Christians, & not only so, but also daily practise their pretended Couenant and keepe their communion in their antichristian assemblies vvhose in deed they are, if these be not the right Samaritanes in their practise then let the indifferant judge: But hovv contrary is this vnto the Scriptures, Matth. 3. 6. 2. Cor. 6. 14. 17. 18. Re [...]. 18. 4. which showeth vnto vs: that God doth receiue vs into Communion vpon this condition, to come out, and to separat from the false vvayes of the vvorld and least our corrupt flesh should put differant, and so take an occasion to continue in any one false vvay more then another, therefore saith the Holy Ghost, and touch no vncleane thing and I will receiue you, and I vvill be a father vnto you, and yee shall be my sones and daughters, saith the Lord almighty. If the Lord hath made this condition, as it is cleare hee hath, who should not feare to plead the contrary or so to practise: moreouer did not they that were baptized confesse their sinnes. Matth. 3. 6. And vvas not baptisme to them in the true Church are newing of their Couenant in Christ then come, and they that were not in the true Church before did they not enter into a Couenant with God in Christ, vvhen they were baptized, and was it not don vnto all vpon the confession of their sinnes? how comes it to passe then that these men before named beeing vnseparated, and vvalking in their publique sinnes should be pleaded for to be sufficient Couenant makers, & that they haue made a true Couenant with God, let not any thinke that this distinction will helpe them in this cause to say that they walke in the trueth, so far as they see or vnderstand: suerly this is a very crooked, and a vneuen measur to measure our obedience vnto our creatour. But should the commandements of the blessed God bee limited, and bounded vnto [Page] the blind vnderstanding of sinfull man, or as if the spirit of God had not lefte sufficient derection vnto vs, either hovv far or with whome to walke in such publique matters of religion, in the which these antichristian idolaters haue lesse to say for themselues then those their predecessors which were before them Exodus 32. which when they made the calfe they had not the Lords order or direction, for the Lords [...]ublique worship as yet giuen vnto them: and therefor they ran into that greuious sin: Moyses staying long away as verse the 1. showeth: But the Lord hath not only giuen plaine order, and rulles in his vvord to these men: but also hath raised many faithfull witnesses, both by voice, and also by bookes to shovv the wayes of God, and to declare their sinne vvhich they neglect, & also reject: but to come too this man vvho prepareth this pathe way in the maintaining of this Couenant, hovv easie is it for Sattan to preuaile with any being possessed vvith this errour whether they be in the false Church then their to vvalke in this way of dessemblation, and thinke to blesse themselues as Naaman did 2. Kings 5. 17. with two mules load of earth thinking to serue the Lord in the land of Sirian, and that hee needed not to trouble himselfe to go to Ierusalem: but this being contrary to the commandemēt of God, Deut. 12. 13. 14. and the Prophet seeing it: and also his soddan and confused motions vvhich allthough hee professed not to sacrifices to any other God saue only to the Lord. But yet hee proposed and professed to bow down in the house of Rimmon his masters God, and for that hee vvould aske pardon befor hee did it: now I say the Prophet seeing his sodden, and confused motion bid him go in peace, that is so much as say, far yee well: as if the Prophet saw it not fit to resolue his doubtes, nor to direct him to go to Ierusalem where the true place of vvorship vvas: and are not these Couenantmakers much like vnto him, who in their confused motions or considerations, thinke they need not to leaue or forsake their antichristian estat. But their to remaine, & thinke to blesse themselues by a sequestered meeting from their brethren the antichristians on part of the day, and to communicat with them the other part of the day: but do these men thinke that by sequestering themselues from their brethren to change their cōdition. Oh no, for as the Prophet showeth Haggi 2. 14. that if a polluted person touch any hollowed thing, he is so far from making himselfe cleane therby, that hee maketh the holy thing vncleane, and so not acceptable: [Page] whervpon it vvill follovv that their priuat gathering together, and taking to themselues the ordinances of God is so far from sanctifying of them, that they polut the holy things of God, whilles they stād in [...] antichristian estat: or doe they thinke they are the nearer to the Lord by vsing of vvords to make a Couenant, they remaining in their antichristian estat, no allthough they do it with great zeale and oath, yet it helpeth them not, as the Prophet saith, Hosea 10. 4. They haue spoken vvords swering falsly in making a Couenant: neither lett them thinke, that it is a lowable for them to sett vp a ministery in that estat: for as it was sayd vnto their predecessor Esra. 4. 3. it is not for you, but for vs to build the house vnto our God: and if the Lord did so detest the old Babylon vvhich was, but the tipe of this antichristian Babylon that their should not be a ston taken, Ierem. 51. 26. neither for corner nor for foundation, vvho should not be afeard to mannag the stones of this spirituall Babylone, to bee [...]it matter for the Lords house. But hovv doe these men blesse themselues some thing like vnto Michah Iudges 17. 13. who being in his idolatry sayd, I knovv that the Lord will be good vnto mee, seeing I haue a Leuit to my preist. So these men standing in their antichristian estat, thinke themselues vvell now, seeing they haue imitated the order of the church of God in their priuat meetings. But that it may the better appeare that these are the right successors of the Samaritanes, I vvil compare them together. First the Samaritanes they toke it one them to serue the Lord, 2. Kings 17. 33. But they serued their idoles also. So these Couenantmakers they toke it on or pretended to serue the Lord in their sequestered priuat meetings from their brethren the antichristians, and so pretended to set vp the Lords ordinances, but with all they would not forsake the antichristian estat, but walk in both together, and so continue as the Samaritanes did. 2. The Samaritanes thus abiding in their confusion or mixed religion, yet when the people of God retourned out of captiuitie they presented themselues, vnto them to be in vnion and communion, and profered to build with them, testifying that they did seeke the Lord their God as they did, saying also that they had Esra 4. 2. sacrificed vnto him from their first planting in Samaria: So likewise these men although abiding in their mixed religion and confusion, yet esteeme it to be the true way of God, and would be esteemed: of those that are separated to be their brethren, and professe their way [Page] and course to be the building vp of the house of God; taking vpon them the name of a true Church. 3. Although these Samaritanes were not accepted, but refused, yet did som of them indirectly creept into communion with the people of God: So some of these creept into communion indirectly, pretending that vvhich they were not, in the which this man was the chiefe, first as I haue before showed when hee creept into Mr. Lees people into their communion, and after that cam ouer heare, and vvould haue had communion with vs: but hee seeing himselfe to haue resistance heare, after this hee vvent to Leyden, and creept into that Church, and so made of them a bridge to git in vnto vs. 4. The Samaritanes in their corrupt estat fathered themselues vpon the ancient Patriarches of the Church, Iohn 4. 12. 20. and contended with the true Church as hauing the trueth with them: So likewise these account their mixed estat to be the true vvay of God, and condemne vs for vvholly separating from the false Church: and contend vvith vs for it. 5. Although these Samaritanes vvere thus corrupt in their estat, yet had they attained vnto the chiefe pointes of faith concerning the Messias, as may appeare by the speech of the Woman Iohn 4. 25. vvhich vvas one not stricke in life, vers. 18. & conuersation, I say, if shee vvhich vvas but a Woman, could say so much, what may wee thinke was amongst the other Samaritanes; and also wee may see how redily they receiued Christ, as vers. 39. & 42. showeth, and yet for all those points of Doctrine which they had receiued, notwithstanding they were condemned by our Sauiour Christ, Iohn 4. 22. as worshipping they knew not what: which teacheth vs how to judge, and esteeme of such mixed religions. And now these Couenantmakers allthough they agree with vs in the chiefe pointes of faith, yet seeing they continue in their corrupt estat, being vnseparated from the false Church, wee are taught of Christ how to esteeme of them, and so leaue them to be the successors of the Samaritanes, and their right heires. Now this is the Couenant which Mr. S. maintaineth, and for the which hee so bestored himselfe when it was condemned: and doth not hee lay afar ground to keepe men in the way of desemblation, and so to remaine in the false Church by the maintaining of this Couenant: yee, & to be a snare to such as haue left them, if once they be possessed, with this errour, and let vs take himselfe for an example, for although hee had left the Church of England, both as it was a nationall Church, [Page] and also the Parishes holding, both to be false, and being come so far reason should haue taught him, neuer to haue to doe with such a Samaritanesh people againe in Church communion, seeing they remain [...] as they did vnseparated: yet since hee was cast out from vs, hee went and had communion with them, and baptized his child with them also: and vvhy went hee not rather to the assemblies, seeing that that is their most proper Church estat, they being yet vnseparated, and for that their priuat meetings it is, but a schisme in Babell, & in that their doing they make a breach in both estats, both in their antichristian estat, and in their pretended seruing of the Lord, 2. Kings 17. 33. 34. as the Holy Ghost testifieth of their predecessor. And further I say to him concerning [...]is clamours, who of our Church hath tourned their backe vpon vs excepte those which hee is the cause of about these troubles in question, vvhich hee through much labouring, and others with him hath inticed: but if hee meaneth those of the Church of Leyden, which hath declined or apostated, is it not more probabell or rather to plane that they haue taken their ground from Mr. Ro. their Pastour which hath opened so many pathe wayes: for them first in setting out a book for priuat communion vvith the members of the false Church, 2. in the maintining of hearing in the assemblies to be no communion, 3. in the maintaining of this Samaritanesh Couenant: 4. in that booke called Apologie, hee doth not only vvith smoth vvords darken the trueth, vvhich formarly hee Iustification of separ [...]tion. maintained. But also hee saith plainly speaking of the Church of England in the 58. page, Obserue this is the [...] which Mr St. [...] to haue. and hee speaketh it in the name of the Church of whom hee is Pastor: that their faith doth not consist in the cōdemning of others, & wiping their names out of the bead roull of Churches. And a little after hee saith: neither requier vvee of any ours in the confession of their faith that they either renounce or in one vvord contest vvith the Church of England: in this it appeareth that hee is ashamed, and runeth from separation, and of this his alteration hath the aduersaries of the trueth taken nottise of, long before this last book came out so as I. P. saith, An a [...]row against the sep [...]ration of the B [...]un. pag [...]9. line 25. speaking of his book, called the justification of separation.

Which hee sett out in the defence of the trueth, it being a good vvorke, yet thus hee speaketh of Mr. Rob. concerning it that hee openly pluckes out some of the bowells therof vvith his owne hands, and now seeing this is so, why doth this man indeuour to lay the fault [Page] vpon vs: which withstand these errours, and therfore wee are of him, and them euill spoken of: but as it is vsually seen that such as run from their masters do speake euill of them, so such as decline, do speake euill of them that oppose them: & therfore lett none merueill that wee are euill spoken of by Mr. S. and by those that assist him, for it hath bin thus allwayes with the Lords people in former times, yea euen the Apostells of our Lord Jesus hath thus bin dealth withall: and now to these opposites I speak, wheras one of them twoo hertofor hath spoken to this effect, that if the Couenant could be desproued, that then they ought to acknowledge their euill in the things, for the vvhich they were cast out: and although but one of them speake it, yet seing hee speak the trueth, and as it ought to be therfor, I wish them both to consider it, and for vs if the Lord giue repentances vnto them wee shall be glad, and hould our armes open to receiue them: but alas vvhat hope is their of it, seeing this man hath so many times imitated the practise of Absolom vvhich vvent in to his fathers concubins, that so all should haue no hope of reconciliation between them: so the third time hath hee printed his contention to the world, as if hee did meane to continue an adversary, and therfore by these hee bideth battell: but if his cause were better then it is, yet great is the euill hee doth therin in causing the name of the Lord to be scandelled. Another pathe way which hee maketh for libertines is in the maintaining of his refusing, to answer which is before spoken of, by vvhich president of his wee see the euill effect that hath followed, for suerly by his example the lo [...]se ones of the Church, and such as are corrupted begin to oppose that diligent watch as ought to be keept in the Lords house, and with his example, and his bussie writing, and printing, and priuate corrupting of mens minds labouring to corrupt all that hee thinketh, hee can worke vpon as by experiance wee haue seene, and in deed not keeping to the things as they are, as I haue showed before. Therefore that his sin in this point may the better appeare, I will briefly declare, and distingest betvveen priuat and publique matters, and then apply his cause vnto that which it appertaineth vnto. First I find in the Scripture that the Lord both vnder the law, also in this time of the Gospell did so prouide, that all his people should bee preserued from giuing themselues liberty to sinne, both sins of priuat nature, and also of publique: the generall of this I find in Leuit. 19. 17. which serueth either [Page] for publique or priuat, the words are these: Thou shall not hate they brother in thine hart, but thou shalt plainly rebucke they neighbour▪ & suffer him not to sinne. 2. Obserue if the sinne be of priuat natur [...] and committed priuate to the knowledge, but of one brother, then is that brother bound in priuat to shew the sinner his sin: and if hee hear and repent, their it must stay, and go no further: Matth. 18. 15. and Prou. 25. 9. because hee is wone and a sinner conuerted from going a stray, and a soule saued from death [...]ames 5. 20. Now I purpose not hear to speake of all the degrees of dealing for sin: but only out of the Scripture to show that which siteth the present purpose in hand. Therfore 3. in the next place obserue that some sinnes that are priuatly cō mitted, are not priuatly to be ended by that one that knoweth it, as for example the intiser to idolatry Deut. 13. 6. And also the committer of idolatry Deut. 17. 2. 3. which sinnes the Lord would not haue keept secret, Deut. 13. 8. and which sinnes was, and is the pleasure of the Eternall that they should not be keept secret, because hee would haue his people keept in their obedience vnto him as it is most reason they should aboue all things, and to preserue his trueth: and for the preseruation of his people, and therefor the sinner was to be brought forth that his people should hear and feare, and do no more such wickednes Deut. 13. 11. compared with 1. Timoth. 5. 20. and as in these transgressions the publique Church is to see the end therof. 4. So likewise concerning the breach of the ordinances that God gaue to the Church, that they parteine to the generall to looke vnto as vvee may see in Actes 11. 2. for hauing but heard that Petter had eatten vvith some vncircumcised, they thought hee had broken the ordinances, and therfore not knowing of his vvarrant they looked vnto it, & receiued his answer, yet vvas this done in a priuat house far of them, to wit, in Cesaria. 5. Likewise for doctrine vvhen any is maintained which is against the faith in the generall, or against the ordinances pertaining to the Churches, this also belongeth to the publique assemblie to looke vnto, as wee may see in Actes 21. 22. in the speech of the elders vnto Paule, which although their went a false report of him that hee taught the Iewes that were amongst the Gentills to forsake Moyses, yet wee see vpon that reporte they had right to come together to be satisfied how it should stand, but that it was preuented by Gods prouidence another way. Novv these examples I hope will be sufficient for the [Page] thing in hand: And now therefore I will compare his sinne with such of these causes as be of like nature. First therfore his factious meeting agreeth with the inticer to idolatry, Deut. 13. 6. in that hee indeuoured to corrupt the mindes of the brethren to that his errour before proued. 2. How doe these twoo examples reproue his refusing to answer, for neither of them had committed sinne, yet had the publique right to hear the things cleared, yee although they were the Apostells of Christ, but this man maintained an errour in that his factious meeting, and such an errour which being receiued openeth a vvay to libertins, and destroyeth separation: and should not this belong vnto the publique to looke vnto and as a publique thing: if it be sayd their factious meeting vvas gathered in a priuat house, was not Petters action don in a priuat house also, and that far of from them of Ierusalem? therefore such things as these must not be limited, to a priuat dealing. 3. Obserue: hovv this had relation to the publique naturally, for first it vvas the errour vvhich the Church did beare with him in and therfore hee was to keepe his judgment to himselfe, and not to corrupt other their with, also it being in the Church, and the Church hauing condemned the Couenant: one of them tvvo professed to write: but presently the elder gaue them to vnderstand, that if they did that then they must answer it: and in deed is it a thing reasonable that that vvhich vvas publique, and communicated vnto all the whole body that one or two men should gather apart of the church to possesse their mindes against the Church; the Church maintaining the trueth: or in common reason should not the Church knovv vvhat they did i [...] way of opposing in that their letter, seeing they had seene, and knowne all that the Church had don, suerly hee layeth vpon some to be many masters, but in this they caried themselues as if they were the Churches masters: and I suppose they would haue taken it to be very euill in the Church to haue keept them out of the meeting, and not to let them know what the Church did in that bussines: but they were presente as reason they should, and did disput to the vttermost of their power: but what would these men haue vs to thinke of their doing, vnlesse they would haue vs, thinke that they haue a priuiledge aboue others, if they haue then, let them shew it vnto vs: but I suppose they can show no priuiledge or true reason: for as all things of priuat nature may not be made publique without due order, so likewise that [Page] vvhich is of publique natur, and is in the publique, ought not to be opposed, and contredicted in the priuat in vnderhand dealing. But that they ought, and should be redy to shevv vvhat they do in such things, of such nature as this is: and wheras hee thus saith concerning Pastour and teacher: but what hope of euer such vvorthies coming in when their is such an hideous noise in the house by such vnruly masters, which cruelly smit some wound others, and cast their deare brethren out at the windowes. Answer, such worthies as hee speaketh of, I hope through the mercy of God, when the Lord calleth them, will not be stayed, neither by such suttell oppossares as hee is knowing that in the Apostells dayes, and in all ages the Churchs hath bin troubled with such, nor yet with the weaknes or sinnes, which breake forth in the Church: for all ought to know that the Churchs of Christ, are subject to faile as no doubte, but wee doe in our best actions, but are these things true which hee speaketh, of smiting & wounding, and casting our deare brethren out at the vvindowes, I hope hee meaneth himselfe specially for one that is so dealt withall: novv for the matter of his casting out, I haue before shewed, and for the manner of his casting out, hovv can hee tearme it, a cast out at the windowes, seeing it vvas done by the free consent of the Church: yea and those vvhom hee now saith witnesse for them, did not only consente, but some of them hastened the elder to cast them forth, and then their owne alliance had not to speake for them: therfore if his cause had bin good against the Church as it is not, yet might hee not so to haue written: for is not the going in or the casting out at the window, opposit to the going in or casting out at the dor, as wee may see in Iohn 10. 1. and is their any planner manner of proceding then by the free consent of the Church either to receiue in or to cast out: and was not the incestious person so cast out 1. Cor. 5. 4. yea and so was Mr. S. cast out by this Church, and therfore cast out at the dore, and not at the window. And wheras he saith that vvee haue been bold to vent our worst, wee could imagine against him vpon all occasion, how is this true that hee saith when a [...] wee let him alone so many yeares, although hee hath don vs great injury, and that in printe as before I haue showed, and much more I could shew, if I were of his disposition. But what shall a man git by such things, but rather deshonner the Lord, and the trueth, and therfore I let many of his clamours alone vnanswered, because I judge it [Page] not wisdome to contend in such vaine contention, being greeued that I am occasioned to doe so much as I haue done by him; further hee saith [...]nd for your presumptuous determining my Eternall estat, the Lord for giue you. Answer, Hee vvould make the reader beleeue that wee judge him a cast away, and that no repentance shall be giuen to him of God: but hovv euilly doth hee deale in this thing, it appeareth thus, Mr. S. after hee vvas cast out yet came hee ordinarily euery Lords day a great whille and troubled vs very much with heauy contention, wher vpon as I to my best remembrance hard a brother say, that it was doubtfull to him whether hee did not sinne against the Holy Ghost in that his doings: novv if the brother had spoken neuer so absolut, yet vvas hee but one man, why doth Mr. S. speake as if it were the generall; but this is his manner: vvill I do desir that the Lord vvill giue him grace to shovv the contrary by repentance, but what an idle thing is this that hee will print such a thing as this: this vvas but a speech spoken by one man, and hee showing his judgment vpon Mr. S. euill cariages then present and also before; what may a vvise man thinke of this man, how hee straineth other things for his porpose, seeing in this hee dealeth so euilly: for to sett downe one mans speech in such tearmes as hee that readeth, may thinke it vvas the generall: and novv I haue answered his Preface, wherin I haue lett alone diuers of his clamours, and admonissions, for these reasons follovvings first his clamours and admonissions do return vpon himselfe, his grounds being taken avvay, and so hee being answered in the main differances. 2. I am vnvvilling to follovv a man of his disposition in such idle contention in clamours and reproches, and in laying open of the infirmities of men to the vvorld, for I haue learned of Dauid not to tell of such things in Gath, nor to publish it in the streets of Ashekelon, lest the daughters of the Philistians rejoyce: & I could haue rewarded him the like, but I spare such things, and I am greeued that by him I was prouoked to speake that little I haue done, but I could not vvell auoid it: let the indifferant Reader judge. 3. If I should go one vvith him in such vnprofitable strife, vvho vvould respect to reade it, but to cry the trueth out in the maine things indifferant, may bee profitable to them that haue a loue vnto the trueth; and novv to ansvver to Mr. S. Postscript to the brethren absent, in the vvhich hee should haue had more [Page] care to sett dovvne the trueth of things as they are, seeing hee meant to send abroad his vnprofitable writings.

Brethren it may hapely seem strang to you, that the people hear complained of, should be so irregular in their proceedings, and so singular as to reject the helpe of all, but since they had their reasons, I thought it requisite to giue them their due herein, the reason why they proceded not by the rulle Matth. 18. vvas because in this cause they had nothing to doe with it, but vvith Iosua 22. and 1. Thess. 5. 22. Ansvver, I say contrary to him that wee refuse not the helpe of any as their is just occasion, and therefore wee haue & do still professe, that if any Church or Christian can show vs vvherin wee sinne in any thing, vvee are redy to heare them, but for this poinct see the Answer to his Preface, vvher hee chargeth vs for rejecting of our 3 [...]. Article, but let the Reader obserue, hovv hee doeth skoffe vvith his ovvne abusing of vs, first obserue that hee vvould take away strange conceites out of the mindes of the absent brethren, by the giuen to vs our due in the shovving to them our reasons, which reasons hee mindes to bee very vnsufficient for the bussines in hand.

Answer, and so do I minde also as hee settes them downe: therefore I vvill obserue his doings, first where hee saith the reason vvhy vvee proceded not by the rull Matth. 18. vvas because in this cause they had nothing to do vvith it. Answer, but is this all that wee haue sayd, haue wee not showed wherin wee had to do also vvith Matth. 18. in this bussines, for that rull hath three degrees, the first, the second, & the third, & their is no sin handled in the Church, which is not comprehended in this rull, and this wee hold which is contrary to that that hee hath sett downe, wheras hee saith; but with Iosua 22. and 1. Thess. 5. 22. hear wee are greatly abused also, for although Iosua 22. is effectuall for the bussines in hand, as after I shall show, yet that in the Thesalo. is not of waighte for that hee settes it downe, neither vvas it to that end brought; those Scriptures was aledged to him in the publique when hee refused to debat the matter, the one prouing that Christians ought to abstaine from all apparences of euill, but seeing he had run into it, this Scripture being compared vvith Iosua 22. they proue that Christians ought to cleare themselues in such like causes as that vvas, and as their example reproueth them that vvould not follovv it, so likewise is the example of the Church of Israell an example [Page] and rull for all Churches, to keepe the watch of the Lord, that his publique ordinances should not bee broken also. Wee find the like example in Actes 11. wher Peter submitted himselfe to the brethren at Jerusalem, clearing himselfe and showed his warrant, that hee vvas sent of God: and now to ratifie to the consciences of all these Scripture alledged, looke in the Phil. 3. 17. which sayeth; Brethren bee followers together of mee: and marke them which walke so as you haue vs for an example. Now the Apostells, I hope, their writings are the commandements of the Lord: Who ought not to bee afraid to practise the contrary: novv I say these Scriptures agree with Matth. 18. concerning all publique matters in the 3. place: therefore when that was spoken by one, that wee had not to doe in this cause with Matth. 18. it was to bee vnderstood concerning priuat sinnes, and of priuate nature: therfore when wee saw how hee peruerted that parties meaning, then there were other answeres giuen to cleare it, as I haue showed: if he hath giuen to vs our due in this, let the Brethren judge: and wher hee saith and the reason why they reject all others helpe, was because they sayd they were contrary to all men. Answer, for rejecting of helpe I haue answered before, but lett it bee obserued how euilly hee dealeth hear vvith vs, first hee saith, they sayd and hee knoweth it vvas but one mans speech, and therfore if it hath bin altogether a mise spoken, yet vvas it not the Churches: for hee knoweth that nothing is the Churches, but that which is taken by voice or consent vvith a space of silence: and that is to be reckoned the Churches acte, and hee hath bin told of this oftentimes, and yet both hear, and in other places hee thus abuseth vs, moreouer although the words were not formable, and therfore not proper, yet hee knew his meaning vvhich vvas that all those vvhich he stod to haue to judge of his cause, were contrary to vs in this bussines: But to show his euill dealing, let it be obserued that hee quoteth the 1. Thess. 2. 15. wher the Apostell saith of the Jevves vvho both killed the Lord Iesus, and their owne Prophetes, and haue persecuted vs away, and God they please not, and are contrary to all men. Now his quoting of this Scripture to his speech, before spoken of, and showing no reason or distinction, should not men vnderstand that that should bee our also; novv obserue first hee taketh hold of on mans speech, and maketh that the Churches. Secondly hee quoteth a Scripture at his ovvne pleasure, and that must bee our also: is this to [Page] giue vs or due, then let the Brethren judge. Hee saith thus, I refer my selfe to the indifferante presente, vvhether I haue not sett downe their offences sparingly. Answer, by the Replie that is giuen now vnto you, let the indifferant reader judge whether you haue not spoken laifeshly and very euill doing wrong vnto your neighbours, & vnto the trueth by causing a scandall by your vnprofitable writing, and now lett the brethren judge between vs, yea and any indifferant also, and as for vs wee do acknowledge our offences and sinnes are many, for the which the Lord may justly chastise vs many wayes, and also it may bee the Lord hath bid Mr. S. to abuse vs vvith his tonge, as hee bad Shimei to curse Dauid, 2. Sam. 16. 11. But as Shimei was not guiltles although Dauid had prouoked the Lord: neither is hee guiltles although vvee haue many offences; but how do I see Adam in him posting of his sin, nay I would hee did so much as Adam, for although Adam did say the Woman that thou gauest mee, she gaue mee of the tree: yet hee saith this also, and I did eat: wherin hee did acknowledge hee had broken Gods command. If this man did say so much, I should haue hope of him: but what shall I say, I doe desir that hee may do it freely, and that is all the hurt I wish him.

Before this former answer vvas finished, this man hath sett out his third engion into the world, in the vvhich hee playeth the rowears part vvhich setteth out other mens colleres, to the end they may the easier surprise the marchants ships; the penner of this, after letter appeareth to bee Mr. Robinson, who vvas forvvard enought to helpe this man in his corrupt estat, as it appeareth by this letter: yet novv I suppose hee vvrit by his information, but whether hee did or not, if now in the ansvver therof, their bee that spoken which please not his friends, and those which consented vnto this letter: then let them thanke this bussy man, vvhich set it out to the world; and let them know whosoeuer they be, that the trueth must bee preferred befor the respect of any, be they few or many.

The Preface to the letter hath this title, an appeale on trueths behalfe, what hee meaneth by trueth hee giueth to vnderstand at the end of his Preface, and referreth the reader to the letter, vvherby I vnderstand these 2. First his refusing to answer, and his factious meeting which hee calleth lawfull, but of these 2. pointes lett the Reader obserue the ansvver before giuen, and then it vvill appeare that [Page] these desearueth no such title, but rather to bee titled a plaeye against the trueth.

Here follow the Preface to the Letter.

OUr opposites after much and long strugling as vvild creatures taken in a snar, perceiuing neither freind nor forenner, knovv how to yeld them any reliefe, though they creept basely for it: being yet set to hold it out trueth fayling them. Answer. Now this man beginneth to shew himselfe in his kinde, and obserue, I pray, his differant cariage in the beginning of his least booke before this, and also the first hee cometh vvith fare, showes and woud make the vvorld beleeue that that which hee doth is all in loue, and therfore hee calleth vs Brethren, although euen then hee did vs great injury, but vvhat maketh him to change his tune so quickly: it seemes by his ovvne words the very hearing that wee porpose to make ansvver to his clamours: and novv how doth hee bestore himselfe, telling to all to whom his writing shall come, that trueth faileth vs, and that wee are taken in a snare, and that wee can haue no reliefe with the rest of his vanting words, and all this and more hee doth, before such time as wee haue put out any ansvver vnto him: therfore hee is more like [...]nto a vvild createur, or like vnto a man that is vvilde in condition, which hauing heard that his ennimy doth porpose to meete vvith him, presently hee drayweth out his sorde, and their with smiteth round about him, and crieth out to his ennimy that hee can not stand before him: but yet I thinke hee should haue stayed himselfe, till one combat had bin tried, and not this to haue vanted himselfe. Well I will leaue it to consideration whether Gaall Judges 9. 29. or hee bee the greatest boasteres, and if wee be as hee saith taken in a snare: hee wanteth not will to hold vs fast, but I will grant him to be the diuells snare layare, as before I haue showed, and I also grant: that hee and some with him hath in snared and troubled the mindes of some which hath troubled vs, & now that hee being a chiefe instrument in this our troubles, or strugling as he tearmeth it, let him take the shame of it vnto himselfe, and let him and all know, that wee are commanded to striue ernestly for the faith once giuen to the Saincts, Iude 3. and for vs I hope wee shall haue cause to say as the Psalm saith, Our soule as a bird is escaped out [Page] of the snare of the fowler, the snar is broken, and wee are escaped, Psalm 124. 7. And for to looke for help at the hands of men, vvee leaue that vnto him which doth so labour for it; and it shall bee sufficient for vs to haue the vvord of the Lord for our warrant, to satisfie the conscience of all that feareth the Lord.

And wheras hee saith that wee creept basely for helpe or reliefe. I know no such thing, yet obserue how contrary hee is vnto himselfe, one whille hee saith wee reject the helpe of all, and hear hee saith that wee creept basely for reliefe, and neither of them are true, as hee would make the Reader to vnderstand, for I haue answered before that wee reject the helpe of none in due order, and as their is just occasion.

And vvheras hee saith novv they vnconsciennably inuent slanderes hoping after so long time past, they may now boldly change the causes of our differances, and say vvee were cast out for a tempting to lead them to idolatry, and so all wee haue published is no other then lyes, vvhich they novv threaten to manifest to all the vvorld.

ANSWER.

Wee vvill leaue the inuenting of slanderes vnto himselfe, vvho hath so laueshly let his tong, and pen run that way as hath bin showed, neither will vvee change the causes of our differances, and therfore I haue layd it downe before that they were cast out, for a factious or vnlawfull meeting. 2. For contempt of gouernment in their refusall to answer or to debat their matter, and 3. for contention in the manner of cariages, these were the heades of their causes of their casting out: But now doth hee thinke by this his clamours to stay vs that wee shall not speake, or lay open his sin in the perticulars as vvee haue just occasion, vvhich is contained in chose generall heads, and seeing hee would not debat his matter before hee vvas cast out, but vvould haue it tourned backe in to priuat: therfore although hee hear of it in the publique, vvee do him no injury, seeing hee administers the occasion, and if vvee should not lay open the perticulars to proue the faction, or vnlavvfull meeting, hee I suppose vvould take the aduantage therof; therfore let the Reader obserue the ansvver before giuen, but that any hath so spoken as hee settes it dovvne, I knovv none, yet if there [Page] did any so speake, they shot some thing nearer the marke, if the perticular bee looked into: And vvhereas hee saith that vvee▪euer haue shuned triall to such clamours, I haue ansvvered before: But wheras hee saith that this letter doth manifest it wher also contrary, to our saying is confearmed that they censered vs for not, acknovvledging intraping demandes, for Christ government and a lavvfull peacable meeting for faction▪ Answer.

Hovv this letter doth manifest this vvhich hee saith, it vvill in the ansvvering thereof appeare in the meane time; to him I ansvver, vvee might vvonder how Mr. Rob. can conferm that vvhich hee speaketh of, seeing hee vvas altogether ignorant hovv things were caried, and then on the other hand considering hovv hee vvas corrupted vvith the same errour, and more errours of like natur, vvhich also receiued him by that Samaritanest Couenant, and also receiued for trueth this mans information, and those that assist him; considering of these things wee may obserue what caried away his affection: but for answer, I giue this man to vnderstand that Solomon Prouerbes 18. 17. hath told vs the condition of such as hee is, therfore the greatest and first complainers are not allwayes the most clears of euill: and therefore now let such as know the trueth judge and consider what is sayd betvveen vs concerning this matter.

Hear follovveth the ansvvering of the Letter of the Church of Leyden.
WEe receiued your letter Brethren, but not ansvvering either our expectation, or the vvaightnes of the bussines in hand.
ANSWER.

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THis waightie bussines vvhich hee speaketh of, vvas a reconciling of those persons, vvhich vvas cast out for these things in question, and hovv should vvee answer their expectation, seeing those opposites were so stiffe in their sinfull course as that speech doth manifest, which one of them spake aluding to Paule Actes 24. 14. in vvhich speech hee vvould seem to imitat Paule, but although it vvas good in Paul to vse that speech, and showed his fearmnes in the trueth: yet vvas it euill in Mr. S. to vse that speech in the behalfe of his sinne, and it showed his stifnes in the same, and therefore no hope of reconciliation, they so standing in that minde: And vvheras Mr. Robin. vvould seen to justifie him for his stifnes, saying first touching the person intended by you, I should not seeme strange to any, if hee were most forvvard vvho vvas deeply interested in the bussines, and that so far as his Church estat and membership must necessarily stand, or fall vvith that Couenant impugned by you, as the branch vvith the roote.

Answer, I denie that his membership should stand or fall by that Couenant, for wee receiued him to vs one these two grounds, first as a member coming from the Church of Leyden, vvith vvhom wee vvere in communion. 2. As being a man capable, because hee vvas fully [Page] separated from the false Church, and this hee had manifested vnto vs before wee receiued him: and although the Church of Leyden vvhich held the Couenant true, did so receiue him by that Couenant, yet wee allwayes rejected that Couenant: and did not receiue him by that Couenant vnto vs, for vvee hauing novv another ground to go vpon. First that hee vvas a man absolutly separated. 2. That hee being novv a member of a true Church, vvhich vvas in communion vvith vs: and allthough Mr. S. vvas contrary to himselfe in that hee vvas novv separated, yet held that Couenant true: yet else how should wee beare vvith him in the differance of his judgment according these Scripturs, Rom. 14. 1. and Phil. 3. 14. 15. alwayes prouided that hee keept his errour to himselfe, and not to corrupt others their vvith, and this vvill stand vvith the Scriptures that so vvee receiued him: yet if any can show vs other vvayes that it will not stand, but that wee ought to haue don more; then there is a remedy by faith and repentance in Christ to helpe all our a mise doings, and not to run vnto such extreme conclusions as Mr. Robin. would driue it, nay yet further I say, that if the Church of Leyden, vvho first receiued him, and that by the vertue of that Couenant▪ if they had come to see their errour in so doing, yet vvould it not follovv that hee should bee desmembered, seeing hee vvas separated: but the Church ought to acknovvledge their sinne in so doing, and to see that hee corrupted not other Reu. 2. 20. with his errour: and that reason helpeth him not from Gen. 29. 24. where hee saith, As Zilpah vvas not, nor could bee rightfully Leahs handmaide, except shee had bin Labanes first rightfully: by whose gift shee was transmitted and conueyed vnto her. Answer, I grant that Laban could not rightfully giue her, except shee had bin his rightfully before: but if Laban had stollen her, and Zilpah had run avvay, and come to Leahs into the land of Cannan, then Leahs might haue bought her, or haue hiered her, and yet Laban should haue no injury offered vnto him, vnlesse his stealling her, made her his rightfully vvhich ne [...] man ought to say. So likewise, neither the Church of Leyden, nor any true Church, ought not to receiue any from such an vnseparated people, seeing they haue but stollen the ordinances of God, and haue no right vnto them.

And whereas hee bringeth these reasons to proue his deepe intrest [Page] in the bussines, let all know, that no conceited intrest vvill beare out any to maintaine an errour: and therefore all his reasonings is of little weight. And for that hee saith that the Couenant vvas by the Churches both here and there, also in the time of those vvorthy gouernors, now at rest in the Lord esteemed truely Christian, I pray let vs examme the trueth of this, that the Churches both here and there did so esteeme: for our selues I may say that the Church neuer did receiue it, and therefore not so esteeme it: neither vvas the voice of the Church euer taken concerning that Couenant, but vvhen they showed their minde to bee contrary vnto it, and condemned it: Or doth Mr. Robin. thinke that because our teacher, who was a mise informed, did a little whille esteeme of the Couenant; that therefore the Church must so esteeme also, and thought that wee must doe as these which consented to this letter, which followed o [...] suffered him in all, or the most of his declinings: And for that Church which is present in the place vvhere those Couenantmaker are, as wee are truely informed by themselues, they did neuer receiue it. How is this true then vvhich Mr. Robin. sayd: but if it had bin so, what vveight is there in that reason, to helpe the Couenant, much like vnto the reason of the Pharises Iohn 7. 48. which sayd against Christ, doth any of the Rulers or the Pharises beleeue in him, but this people vvhich know not the law, are cursed. Therefore I conclud, it is not the esteeme of Churches, nor of gouernors which giueth authority to such things, but the word of the Lord: and where hee saith the party intended by you, should by your grounds not haue bin cast out, but left out of the Church.

Answer, Our grounds inforce not that conclusion, seeing the person vvas novv become a separated person, and a member of the Church of Leyden, from whence wee receiued him, as before I haue showed, in the next place there is a syd and a halfe of the printed letter spent to excues, and to justify Mr. S. in that speech, in the vvhich hee seemed to imitat Paule Actes 24. 14. but of that I haue spoken before, yet still I answer, that those his speechs did proue his stifnes in that his former course, and therefore of reconciliation wee had no hope while hee so stod and continued, and for Mr. Robinson profering to come and to justifie Mr. S. in that his former proceding: to the which I answer, wee know well that hee vvas [Page] redy to that bussines, and that hee was one vvith him in that his errour, and therefore just cause wee had not to bee redy to giue him intertainment to come as a moderator to middle the matter, seeing wee find no such president in the booke of God, yet this wee hold and professe, that if any can show that vvee haue sinned in any thing, vvee ought and are redy to heare them, and this haue vvee signified vnto the Church of Leyden by letter, and therefore the way vvas open for them to come in that manner. In the next place hee saith: And wheras the course well begone and tending to pacification, was as wee vnderstand interrupted and broken of vpon a ground taken from the course of not calling againe into question ciuill judgments, once passed by the judge according to right; let it not bee greiuious vnto you, if wee a little warne you of that dangerous foundation vpon which it seemes you to much build your manner of procedings in the Church.

Answer. To hould that matters being ended according to right, ought not at mens pleasures to bee called into question againe, I see not this proued to bee dangerous, by all that which Mr. Rob. haue sayd: For if matters rightfully ended, should at mens pleasurs bee called into question, vvhen vvould their bee an end of contention, either in the Church or in the common wealthes: and for the distinction which hee puteth between the ending of ciuill judgments, & of the casting forth of the sinner by the Church: namly that repentance should follow to these distinctions. Wee agree and signifie withall, that if wee could see that good worke in these persons in question▪ there vvould bee quickly are conciliation, but yet further I ansvver, to take away occasion from such as take an occasion to cauill at things equall, that wee hold it lawfull although a matter bee rightly ended: yet vvee may go ouer it againe, as the occasion may bee offered, yea and more then once: and this wee haue practised in this matter in the publique with these men diuers times: but yet it vvill not follow, that at mens pleasurs wee must do this, and bring our liberty into bondage, and so to vphold contention.

But wher hee saith that a larger extent of discretion this vvay fevv causes in any age can persuad to: then this in hand, considering both the ground and cariage of the thing, and the number of the persons opposite, and vvith these intrest of all other Church in the bussines.

[Page]Answer. The comparison of any age is more fit to shovv eloquence, and to set a glose vpon the thing in hand, rather then to proue that for vvhich it is brought, and for the ground and cariage of the thing, I haue before spoken of it, to the which I refere the Reader; and for the number of the persons opposite, I answer, although I am sory they are so many, yet I am glad they are so few, seeing these men are such suttell opposers & labour so much to corrupt the mindes of the simple: and hauing with them Ioab the captaine, and Abiather the Preist, I meane Mr. Robinson and his people to establish them in their straying, and wee hauing bin to backeward to withstand them in these their doings. These things considered, it is the Lords mercy that wee are preserued, but if these opposers were many more then they bee: it is no argument of weight to cause vs to yelde to any vndirect course, whereby the trueth should bee betrayed, but obserue, I pray you, that one, if not more then one of those persons whom Mr. Robin. would at aime haue respected; yet a little before hee calleth a light person, and I will not striue with him about it, seeing his or their change was like the Barbarians, Act. 28. 6. and for the intrest of all other Churches in the bussines. I answer, I knovv no proper intrest that any Church had in this bussines, for the which they were cast out, but our owne in which they were members, for vnto vs it did appertaine to looke vnto their faction, in the vvhich faction they indeuoured to corrupte our members vvith that their errour, and hath not euery Church a particular right to vvatch ouer their owne members: therefore I conclude, that this is but a glose to deceiue the minde of them that readeth it. And vvheras hee telleth that satisfaction for the manner of the cariage hath bin tender by the parties censured: Answer, Wee should haue bin glad, if they did tender repentance for the matters themselues, and had they not bin vpholden by these men in these their errours, it may bee before now, long they might haue repented of the matters also: for they were as stiffe at the first, when they vvere cast out for the manner as the matters.

And where Mr. Robinson saith, that in a matter of meere counsaile and aduise, more then which neither the Church of London requiered, nor you could afford them, any particular person aduised with, and hauing their reasons of differances from the Church persuasion, may and in causes of weight such as this was ought by speech [Page] or vvriting as their is occasion signifie, that their different judgment and aduise to them whom it concernes prouided the same bee done in good manner, and with due respect to the Church.

Answer, The trueth ought to bee respected, and also the Church which maintained the trueth, but neither of these was so respected as they ought, as before bin showed, by those men in that their doings: Moreouer I could except against this, that it was not properly counsail, or aduise in this point in question, vvhich that Church desired, but to let this passe. I ansvver, might not any heriticke haue such pretences to broch their errours by such smouth grounds or termes, as these bee vnder the pretence of counsaile or aduise: what if the Church of Smyrna, Reu. 2. 8. being solissited by a seducer to receiue the doctrine of Balaam, and should therefore send to the Church at Pergamos, Reu. 2. 12. for their counsaile to know whether they ought to receiue it or reject it, if then the Church of Pergamos did giue them counsayle not to receiue it, and that by the word of God: might those others vvhich vvere corrupted vvith that errour in that Church, gather themselues apart from the Church, and send their counsaile to receiue that errour, and so oppose the trueth and the Church in their procedings? M. Robin. saith yea in smouth tear [...]es. But I say no: because that if the (vers. 14) Church of Pergamos and Thyatira Reu. 2. 20. were blamed for suffering them before to teach and deceiue the Lords people, then their sinne would bee more, to lett them go on to corrupte the Lords people, although they should plead with Mr. Rob. smouth termes of counsaile or aduise: and therefore the Scripture out of Prou. 11. 14. is by him abused: neither is their any liberty taken away from any, seeing none hath liberty to broach errour: and herein was the Church to vse authority, and also to show reason vvhich vvee haue done and vvhen wee did it, although it was at the request of the Church to vvhome vvee vvrit: then this man toke an occasion thereat to make all this trouble. Further hee saith, That seeing both Moyses in the Law Deut. 19. 15. and Christ in the Gospell Matth. 18. 15. 16. 17. ordains, that euery matter should bee established by two or three witnesses.

Answer. There were more then tvvo vvitnesses vvhich knew the facte vvhich they had done from their one mouth, besides some that were their: but what need is here not to presse for vvitnesse, vvhen [Page] themselues allwayes confessed the fact? only here is the difference, they thinke it was well doing: and so Mr. Robinson saith also, but wee say and knovv it to bee euill: why then do they not lay this contention a syd and stand to maintaine their cause to make it good or to acknowledge their euill: and for these Scriptures by him alledged wee acknowledge the force of them, that no man which denieth a fact, can bee condemned vnder two witnesses, but what of this, I hope they should also acknowledge, that if there bee no witnesse, yet if a man do freely confesse a fact worthy of death, that then that man should dye, and yet those Scriptures not in the least broken: for Dauid which put the Amalakit to death, knew these Scriptures alledged, and also hee knew that hee broke them not; because his owne mouth was as sufficient as many vvitnesses. Now if no more vvere sayd, it were sufficient to gainsay that vvhich Mr. Robin▪ saith, that wee do herein against Moses and Christ, and the Law of the nature it selfe, where hee bringeth Actes 24. 8. 13. Yet further I answer, Mr. Robin. faileth in his ground, for hee taketh it for granted from Mr. S. information, that vvee went vpon suspected euills, and this Mr. S. runeth vpon also bringing our 8. position as before is showed: seeing then they mise in the ground, all falleth at once: and now you may see how well the Church of Leyden hath made good their charge, and which Mr. S. boasted of before: And therefore Mr. Rob. clamours of that large liberty which hee speaketh of, and saith hee can maintaine will here fall to the ground. But vvhere hee saith: And novv brethren, vvhat shall wee say more vnto you, our and all other Churches aduise you, reject in confidence of your owne vnerring judgment, and proceding in this matter. Answer, For vs wee confesse that wee are subject to erre, yet ought wee not therefore to forsake any part of the trueth for tanting words, which Mr. Robinson herein vseth to reproch vs withall, and also maketh a show of that which is not wherein hee dealeth like Mr. S. vvith vvhom hee is a brother in euill: But vvhat and where are those other Churches hee speaketh of, hee should therefore haue keept himselfe to his ovvne Church vvhich had consented to this euill Letter, vvhich hee hath written, but if hee could shovv other Churches, vvhich did so aduise vs, were it not a vvorthy argument to conuince vs. Therefore I say to the Law, and to the testimonies of the Lord, if they can bee [Page] brought to ouersway our reasons, I trust the Lord will giue vs hearts to submit therevnto, and vvhere hee vvisheth that vvee did see our weaknes, and saith then would you not procede vvith that confidence, in a matter and manner before ynheard of in the Churches.

Answer: How true this is, it doth appeare by the answer to Mr. S. Preface before: for their I haue layd downe the matter and approued our course by the word of God, and haue the examples of the Churches of God in the like causes, which by the vvord of the Lord is approued: and for our weaknes wee knovv it, and confesse it, yet ought wee not willfully to cast away our obedience from the least of Gods preceptes, or commandes, which hee hath giuen vs to walke in, vpon Mr. Rob▪ suttle inticements, yet wee are redy to hear what any man can informe vs, by the word of the Lord: and therefore that sentence hee might haue spared, wher hee saith, As if the word of God either came from you, or vnto you alone, and who can not abuse Scripture phrases to effect their willes. Lastly hee endeth his Letter vvith vpbrading of vs, which is as, I suppose, a principall cause that Mr. S. hath set it out to the vvorld, because it agreeth vvith his manner of reproching of vs, as followeth: And for the Church here vvhich is nearliest vnited vnto you, vvhat other vse haue you had of vs since the death of your vvise and modest gouernors in all your differances and troubles? saue to helpe to bear part of the scandall & opprobry, wherwith specially in the publique cariage of matters, you haue layden the ordinances of God and professors of the same in the eyes of all within and vvithout: but in vaine vvee speake vnto you, vvhose eares prejudice hath stopped.

Ansvver, In deed nearlist in dwelling, but fardist of in affection as it may appeare, not only by this bitter Letter, but also to strangers, as occasionally they passe by their dwellings, by vvhome it cometh to our eares, hovv bitterly they inuay against vs; and what is the cause, because wee wil not receiue their new found vvayes of declining, and because wee deslike that they looke not better to the Lords vvatch in suffering their members to apostat: some declining to the Church of England, & their liuing, other going a great compase to new England to communicat with the Church of England: and some of them that are in this Land professe to hear in the assemblies, as they haue occasion; and I make no doubte, but they haue don it many times: and this [Page] their negligent watch hath effected so, that from a great company they are allmost come to nothing or fewer then those vvhom they despies, and haue sayd concerning vs, that our contentions would break vs to peeces.

And further I say that our troubles haue by them bin increased in vnjust, taking part vvith our opposites; so that the prouerbe is in them fullfilled which saith, Prou. 27. 17. Yron sharpeneth yron: so doth man sharpen the face of his friend; for Mr. S. informeth Mr. Rob. and his people a mise, and they againe sharpen his face, and harden him in his euill, and others that take his part: and so increase our trouble and also the scandall, and herin they fullfill this prouerbe: Prou. 28. 4. They that forsake the law, praise the vvicked: and therfore lett it not bee though contention, allthough wee faile in the manner of the doing of it: if wee keepe and obserue the other part of the Prouerbe vvhich saith; But they that keepe the lavv sett themselues against them. And novv my brethren that are absent, I speake to all that are faithfull, if all the Churches of God, Gala. 1. 7. Phili. 3. 18. 2. Peter 2. 1. or the most of them haue bin thus troubled as the Scriptur doeth plentyfully shovv, vvhy should it seeme strang vnto you, as if some strang thing had befallen vs, or as if it vvere other vvayes vvith vs then it hath bin vvith the Churches of God, euen in the dayes of the Apostells and in all ages, yea and hath not the Apostells Act. 20. 30. foretold that such things must bee, saying, For their must bee heresies amongst you, that they vvhich are approued may bee made manifest amongst you: 1. Cor. 11. 19. If therfore vvee striue for the trueth, and to abolish sinne, vvee do herin the will of God: Therefore our Lord teacheth vs to judge with consideration Iohn 7. 24. saying, Iudge not according to the apparence, but judge righteous judgment. Neither let any stomble or bee offended at any weaknesses they see, or espie in vs, for wee are but vveake men compased about vvith the same infirmities euen as other, yet desiring to bee helped by any; let therfore such as haue a loue vnto the trueth, rather sett their shoulder to the Lords vvorke, and helpe to bear the burden, Gala. 6. 2. which the Lord hath appointed: and let all know that as it is euill to giue justly an offence for any to stomble, so is it dangerous to bee offended in Christ, as our Lord saith, Matth. 11. 6. And blessed is hee that shall not bee offended in mee. And vvher Mr. Rob. saith that our [Page] cares are stoped vvith prejudice. Answer, It hath bin time for him to say this, if hee had conuinced vs of errour or sinne, but to run on thus vpon an vnjust ground, may rather bee judged prejudice in him.

And wheras hee saith, that they will bewaile our state, which is in deed to bee bevvailed: to this I answer, Allthough hee doth mise the right mark in this his bewayling of vs, for hee bevvayleth vs because wee withstand his errour and declining, yet for our selues I say vvee haue cause to bee sory, or to bewayle our sinnes and vveakness [...]s, and also our troubles which our opposites hath made: and the more sory vvee are that hee and his people hath vnjustly helped them as this Letter doeth manifest, and vvhich I haue noted before, yet more I say bevvayle or weepe not for vs only, but for themselues in respect of those euills and declinings before showed: and thus I end vvith the Letter of the Church of Leyden, desiering all to consider of that vvhich is vvritten, in the which their is no eloquence, for I want learning and am but a bab in Christ: yet I pray consider that when a child, pleadeth reason, it ought the more to bee regarded, because it proceed from so simple an vnderstanding: so looke vpon the cause to bee the more just and equale, because I am but weake, and haue not been hertofore so imployed. And novv as Elihu saith Iobe 34. 3. The ear crieth words as the mouth casteth meats; therefore try the reasons and Scriptures alledged, and as Paule saith 2. Timo. 2. 7. Consider what I say and the Lord giue thee vnderstanding in all things.

FIN.

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COncerning the publique passages of things in the Church which [...]re in this booke, I haue been carefull to keepe to the trueth of things, yet it may bee in some vvord or vvordes vvhich is not materiall, to change any sence may haue escaped, therefore for the more certainty of the trueth thereof, I did first reuise them with diuers brethren: and then I read it in the publique, first because all should take knowledge of the rightstanding of the cause indifferant: secondly because I would not allvvayes striue about words and things which concerneth not the things indifferant: and so to fill the vvorld full of needlesse contention, vvhich is neither to Gods glory, nor yet to the comfort of him that doeth it.

Fault escaped.

In page 2. line 8. seeing is wanting. p. 4. l. 4. read vs for his. p. 4. l. 21. a mise for inse. pag. 5. l. 2. read sinne for sence. p. 5. l. 9. read were for was. p. 5. lin. 23. read appealing for appearing. p. 5. l. 30. read said for sayth. p. 8. l. 37. read proued for proue. p. 11. l. 2. read circumcision for circoncision. p. 11. l. 23. read second for two. p. 12. l. 11. read the for to. p. 13. l. 6. read prouoke for prouoque. p. 13. l. 12. read scerching for cerching. p. 15. l. 17. our is vvanting. p. 25. l. 33. read try for cry.

Information about this book

Title statement

A Christian reprofe against contention Wherin is declared and manifested a just defence of the Church against such slanderes and reproches which Sabine Staresmore hath layd vpon vs in his two bookes, the first being 16 questions, called a louing tender. The second is his preface and postscript befor and behind Mr. Answorths last sermon, and making a pretence by that to sett it out as a loue token, hee breetheth out his malice against vs: and lastly her is an answer to a letter written by Mr. Robinson, and sent to vs with the consent of his Church, which now Mr. Staresmore hath published to the world. To these things an answer is giuen by A.T.

A. T., fl. 1631.

Edition statement

1631

Publication

Publisher

Text Creation Partnership,

Place of publication

Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) :

Date

2004-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1).

ID [DLPS]

A13299

ID [STC]

STC 23605

ID [STC]

ESTC S103240

ID [EEBO-CITATION]

99838997

ID [PROQUEST]

99838997

ID [VID]

3390

Availability

This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal. The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission.

Series

Early English books online.

Notes

(EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A13299)

Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 3390)

Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1222:09)

Source

— A Christian reprofe against contention Wherin is declared and manifested a just defence of the Church against such slanderes and reproches which Sabine Staresmore hath layd vpon vs in his two bookes, the first being 16 questions, called a louing tender. The second is his preface and postscript befor and behind Mr. Answorths last sermon, and making a pretence by that to sett it out as a loue token, hee breetheth out his malice against vs: and lastly her is an answer to a letter written by Mr. Robinson, and sent to vs with the consent of his Church, which now Mr. Staresmore hath published to the world. To these things an answer is giuen by A.T., A. T., fl. 1631., Thatcher, Anthony, attributed name..

Extent

[4], 43, [1] p.

Successors of G. Thorpe],. [Amsterdam :: Imprinted in the yeare M.DC.XXXI. [1631]. (A.T. = Anthony Thatcher?--STC.) (Place of publication and printer from STC.) (Reproduction of the original in the British Library.)

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