GOD blesse you my friend, and well ouer­taken.

You are hartilie welcome good sir with all my hart.

How farre purpose you to trauell this way by the grace of God?

As far as Nodnol if God permit.

What place is that I pray you, and where is it scituate?

It is a famous citie; and the chie­fest place in Dnalgne, haue you not heard of it?

No truely. For I am a stranger, and newly come into these countries, onely to sée fashions, and to learne the state and condi­tion [Page] of those things whereof I am ignorant.

What country man are you, I pray you, if I may be so bold as to aske?

I am of the country and nation of the Idumeans, a cruell, fierce, and seruile kind of people.

I haue béene in those countries my selfe ere now, and therefore it is maruell that you knowe me not.

Me thinke I should knowe you, but yet I cannot call your name to remem­brance.

My name is Amphilogus somtime of your acquaintance, though now you haue (through tract of time, which is Omniū rerum edax, A deuourer of al things) forgot the same. But notwithstanding that you haue forgot me, yet I remember you very well: is not your name Maister Theodorus?

Yes truly my name is Theodorus, I neither can, nor yet will euer denie the same.

What make you in these countries, if I may aske you without offence?

Truly I came hither to sée the coun­try, people, and nation, to learne the toong, and to sée (as I told you) the state generally of all things.

You are most hartily welcome, and I hauing béene a traueler, borne in these coun­tries, and knowing the state thereof in euerie respect, to congratulate your comming, will impart vnto you the substance and effect ther­of in as few words as I can.

I praie you then giue me leaue (vnder correction) to aske you such necessary questions, as are incident to my purpose, and which may serue for my better instruction in all the foresaide premisses?

Go to then, aske on in the name of God, and I will addresse my selfe to satisfie your reasonable requests in any thing I can.

What be the inhabiters of this countrie? Be they a vertuous, godlie, and re­ligious kinde of people, or other wise cleane contrarie?

Surely they are as all other countries and nations be for the most part, in­clined to sinne, and wickednes, drinking vp iniquitie as it were water, but yet I am per­suaded that albeit all flesh hath corrupted his way before the face of GOD, yet is there not any nation or countrey vnder the sunne that for pride, whoredome, droonkennes, glut­tonie and all kinde of oppression, iniurie, and mischiefe, may compare with this one country [Page] of Dnalgne, God be mercifull vnto it, and ha­sten his kingdome that all wickednes may be done away.

Then as in all other countries, where euer I haue trauelled, so in this also, is verified the old adage, namely, that the first age of the world was called Aurea aetas, the golden age, for that men liued godlie, & in the feare of God, the second age was called Argentea aetas, the siluer age, for that men began somewhat to decline, and fall from their former holi­nesse, and integritie of life, to sinne and wic­kednes: the thirde and last age, which is this that we are fallen into, is and may iustlie be called Ferrea or Plumbea aetas, the yron or lea­den age, in as much as now men are fallen from all godlinesse whatsoeuer, and are as it were wedded to iniquitie, committing sinne without any remorse, and running into all kinde of abhomination and impietie, without restraint. All which things dulie in the good hart of a faithful christian considered, & weied, may easilie persuade a wise man to think their destruction to be at hand, except they repent.

You saie verie well. Therfore I would wish them to take héed to themselues, and to leaue their wickednes before the Lords wrath be gon out against them, for let them be [Page] sure, that when the measure of their wicked­nesse is full, then will the Lord cut them off from the face of the earth if they repent not, and truely turne to the Lord. The wise man saith, that a little before destruction come, the hart of man shall swell into pride, and wicked­nes. Our sauiour Christ saith, when men flat­ter themselues, and saie peace, peace, al things are well, we néede not to feare any thing, then euen then shall sudden destruction fall vpon them, as sorrow commeth vpon a woman tra­uelling with childe, and they shall not escape, bicause they would not knowe the Lord, nor the day of his visitation. Which thing we sée to be true through al the histories of the sacred Bible, for when the Sodomits, and Gomorre­ans had filled vp the measures of their iniqui­tie, and faciate themselues in sinne, then came there fire and brimstone raining from hea­uen vpon them, and their citie, and consumed them all, from the vpper face of the earth. When all the worlde in the daies of Noah, was giuen ouer to sinne, and wickednes, im­mediatelie came the floud of Gods vengeance, and destroied them all, eight persons to wit, Noah, his wife, his thrée sonnes, and their wiues, who serued the Lord in true simplicity of hart, onelie excepted. The Hierosolimitanes [Page] when their sinne was ripe, were they not con­founded, and put to the edge of the sworde? When Pharao the king of Egypt his sinne was ripe, did not the Lord harden his hart to pursue the Israelits, and so drowned him, and all his retinue in the read sea? Herod and Nabuchadnezer swelling in sinne, and rising vp against the maiestie of God in the malice of their harts, was not the one stroken dead in a moment, and eaten vp with worms, the other deposed from his kingdome, and constrained to eate grasse with the beasts of the earth, with the like examples, which for the auoiding of prolixitie, I omit. By all which it appeareth, that when destruction is néerest, then are the people the securest, and the most indurate and frosen in the dregs of their sinne, and being so, the sequele is either confusion in this life, or perdition in the world to come, or both. And therefore I beséech the Lord that both this country, and all others may repent, & amende euerie one their wicked waies, to the glorie of God and their owne saluation.

Is this country fruitfull, and plenty of all things or barren, and emptie?

There is no nation or coun­try in the world, that for store, and abundance of all things, may compare with the same, for [Page] of all things there is such plentie (God haue the praise thereof) as they may séeme to haue néede of no other nation, but al others of them. In so much as if they were wise people (as they be wise inough, if they would vse their wisedome well) to kéepe their owne substance within themselues, and not to transport it ouer to other countries (as many couetous wretches for their owne priuate gaine doe) they might liue richly and in abundance of all things, whilest other countries should lan­guish and want. But hereof more shall be spo­ken hereafter.

I pray you how is this country adiacent, vpon other countries?

It lieth inuironed with the occe­an sea rounde about, vpon the one side east­warde, it bordereth vpon the confines of France: vpon the other side westward, vp­on Irelande, towards the septentrionall or north part vpon Scotland, and vpon the south side, it respecteth Germanie. And is inhabited with thrée sundrie sortes of people, English­men, Cornishmen, and welchmen, all which if not in lawes, and constitutions, yet in lan­guage doe differ one from another. But as they doe differ in toong, and spéech, so are they subiect (and that Patrio iure, By iustice, & law) [Page] to one Prince, and gouernour onely to whom they owe their allegeance.

Is the country quiet, peaceable, and at vnitie within it selfe, or otherwise tro­bled with mutenies, wars, and ciuill dissen­tions?

The whole lande (God be praised therefore, and preserue hir noble Grace by whom it is gouerned, and maintained) is, and hath beene at peace, and vnitie not onely with­in it selfe, but also abroad for this foure or fiue and twenty yeeres. During all which time there hath beene neither wars, inuasions, in­surrectione, nor any effusion of blood to speake of, except of a fort of archtraitours, who haue receiued but the same reward they deserued, and the same that I pray God all traitours with their complices may receiue hereafter, if they practise the same, which they haue done. The like continuance of peace was neuer heard of not this hundred yéeres before, as this country hath inioied since hir maiesties reigne the Lord preserue hir grace, and roiall Maie­stie for euer.

Are the other countries, lands, and nations about them (for as I gather by your former intimations this country is scituate as it were in the centrie, or midst of [Page] others) their friends, and welwillers, or their enimies?

It is an old saieng and true: Ex incertis, & ambiguis rebus optimū tenere sapi­entis est: Of things vncerteine a christian man ought to iudge, and hope the best. They hope wel that all are their friends and welwillers: but it is thought (and I feare me too true) that they are so far from being their friends (Nisi verbo tenus, From mouth outward onely) that they haue vowed and sworne their destructi­on, if they could as easily atchiue it, as they se­cretly intend it. Which thing to be true, some of their late practises haue (yet to their owne confusion, Gods name be praised) proued true. For how manie times hath that man of sinne, that sonne of the diuell, that Italian Antichrist of Rome interdicted, excommunicated, suspen­ded, and accursed with booke, bell, and candle, both the Prince, the Nobilitie, the Commons, and whole Realme? How often hath he sent foorth his roring buls against hir Maiestie, ex­communicating (as I haue said) hir Grace, and discharging hir Highnesse liege people, and na­turall subiects from their alleageance to hir Grace? How often hath he with his adherents conspired and intended the death and ouer­throwe of hir Maiestie, and Nobilitie by con­iuration, [Page] necromancy, exorcismes, art magike, witchcraft, and all kind of diuelrie besides, wherein the most part of them are skilfuller, than in diuinitie? And when these deuises would not take place, nor effect as they wish­ed, then attempted they by other waies and meanes to ouerthrowe the estate, the Prince, nobles, people, and country: sometime by se­cret irruption, sometime by open inuasion, in­surrection, and rebellion, sometime by open treason, sometime by secret conspiracie, and sometimes by one meanes, sometimes by ano­ther. And now of late attempted they the ouer­throwe and subuersion of hir Maiestie, people, country, and all, by sending into the realme a sort of cutthrotes, false traitors, and bloud thir­stie Papists, who vnder the pretence of religi­ous men (in whom for the most part there is as much religion as is in a dog) should not onely lurke in corners like howlets that ab­horre the light, créepe into noble mens bosoms, thereby to withdrawe hir Maiesties subiects from their allegeance, but also mooue them to rebellion, and to take sword in hand against Prince, country, yea and against God himselfe (if it were possible) and to dispense with them that shall thus mischieuouslye behaue them­selues. And forsooth these goodlie fellowes, the [Page] diuels agents, that must worke these feates, are called (in the diuels name) by the name of Iesuites, seminarie préests, and catholikes, vsurping to themselues a name neuer heard of till of late daies, being indéed a name verie blasphemously deriued from the name of Ie­sus, and improperly alluded and attributed to themselues. But what will it preuaile them to be like vnto Iesus in name onely, or how can they, nay how dare they arrogate that name vnto themselues, wheras their doctrine, religion, and whole profession, togither with their corrupt liues and conuersations are di­rectly contrarie to the doctrine, religion, life, and profession of Christ Iesus? There is no­thing in the world more contradictorie one to another, than all their procéedings in generall are to Christ Iesus, and his lawes, and yet will they vnder the pretence of a bare and na­ked name, promise to themselues such excel­lencie, such integritie, and perfection, as GOD cannot require more, yea such as doth merite Ex opere operato, Eternall felicitie in the hea­uens. And thus they deceiue themselues, and delude the world also with their trash: but of them inough.

Surely that country had néede to take h [...]ed to it selfe, to feare, and stand in awe, [Page] hauing so manie enimies on euerie side. And aboue all things next vnto the seruing of God, to kéepe themselues aloofe, and in any case not to trust them what faire weather soeuer they make them: but rather to thinke thus, that when they flatter them the most, then intend they the most mischiefe against them. The swéeter the Syren singeth, the dangerouser is it to lend hir our eares: the Cocatrice neuer meaneth so much crueltie, as when he faw­neth vpon thée, and weepeth, then take héed, for he meaneth to sucke thy bloud. The stiller the water standeth, the more perilous it is. Let them remember it is an old and true saieng: Sub melleiacet venetium, Under hony lieth hid poison. Sub placidis herbis latitat colube [...], vnder the pleasantest grasse, lurketh the venemoust adder. Take héed of those fellowes that haue Mel in ore, verba lactis, swéet words, and plau­sible spéeches: for they haue Fel in corde, and Fraudem factis, Gall in their harts, & deceit in their deeds. So falleth it out with these ambi­dexters, these hollowe harted friends, where they intend destruction, then will they couer it with the cloke or garment of amity & friend­ship, therefore are they not to be trusted.

You say the truth. For I am thus persuaded, that he who is false to God (as all [Page] Papists with their complices and adherents are) can neuer be true and faithfull, neither to prince nor country. Therefore God grant they may be taken héed of betimes.

Considering that this country of Dnalgne is enuied abroad with so many eni­mies, and infested within by so many sediti­ous Papists, and hollowe harted people, it is great maruell, that it can stand without great wars, and troubles. Belike it hath a wise poli­tike prince, and good gouernors, either else it were vnpossible to preserue the same in such peace and tranquillitie, and that so long togi­ther. I pray you therefore by what prince is the same gouerned, and after what maner?

The whole realme or country of Dnalgne is ruled, and gouerned by a noble Quéene, a chaste Maide, and pure Uirgin, who for all respects may compare with any vnder the sunne. In so much as I doubt not to call hir sacred breast the promptuarie, the recepta­cle, or storehouse of all true virtue and godli­nes. For if you speake of wisdome, knowledge and vnderstanding, hir Grace is singular, yea, able at the first blush, to discearne truth from falsehood, and falsehood from truth in any mat­ter, how ambiguous or obscure soeuer: so as it may iustly be called into question whether [Page] Salomon himselfe had greater light of wise­dome instilled into his sacred breast, then hir maiestie hath into hir highnes roiall minde. If you speake of learning and knowledge in the toongs, whether it be in the Latine, Gréeke, French, Dutch, Italian, Spanish, or any other vsuall toong, it may be doubted whether Chri­stendome hath hir péere, or not. If you speake of sobrietie, modestie, mansuetude, and gen­tlenesse, it is woonderfull in hir Highnesse, yea, so affable, so lowly and humble is hir Grace, as she will not disdaine to talke famili­arlie to the meanest, or poorest of hir Graces subiects vpon speciall occasions. If you speake of mercie, and compassion to euery one that hath offended, I stande in suspence whether hir like were euer borne. If you speake of reli­gion, of zeale and feruencie to the truth, or if you speake of the vpright execution or admini­stration of iustice, all the world can beare wit­nes, that herein (as in all godlinesse else) hir Highnes is inferior to none that liueth at this day. So that hir Grace séemeth rather a di­uine creature, then an earthly creature, a ves­sel of grace, mercie, and compassion, whereinto the Lord hath powred euen the full measures of his superabundant grace, and heauenlie in­fluence. The Lord increase the same in hir [Page] Highnes roiall breast, and preserue hir Grace, to the end of the world, to the glorie of God, the comfort of hir Maiesties subiects, and confusi­on of all hir enimies whatsoeuer.

What is hir Maiesties Councell? It should séeme that they must néedes be excel­lent men, hauing such a vertuous Ladie and Phenix Quéene to rule ouer them?

The Councell are Honorable and noble personages indéed, of great grauitie, wisedome, and pollicie, of singular experience, modestie and discretion, for zeale to religion famous, for dexteritie in giuing counsell re­noumed, for the administration of iustice, in­comparable, finally, for all honorable and no­ble exploits inferior to none, or rather excel­ling all. So as their woorthie déedes through the golden trumpe of fame are blowne ouer all the worlde. The whole regiment of the Realme consisteth in the execution of good lawes, sanctions, statutes, and constitutions enacted and set foorth by hir royall Maiestie, and hir most honorable Councel, and commit­ted by the same to inferior officers, and ma­iestrates to be put in practise, by whose dili­gent execution thereof, iustice is maintained, vertue erected, iniurie repressed, and sinne se­uerely punished, to the great glorie of God, and [Page] common tranquilitie of the Realme in euery condition.

Is the lande diuided into shires, counties, precincts, and seuerall exempt li­berties, to the ende iustice may the better be maintained? And hath euery county, shire, and precinct, good lawes in the same for the deci­ding, and appeasing of controuersies that hap­pen in the same, so that they néede not to séeke further for redresse than in their owne shire?

The whole land indéede is diui­ded (as you say, into shires, connties, and se­uerall precincts, (which are in number as I take it 40. In euerie which shire or countie be courts, lawe daies, and lée [...]s▪ as they call them, euery moneth, or euery quarter of a yéere, wherin any controuersie (lightlie) may be heard and determined, so that none néeds (except vpon some speciall occasions) to séeke to other courts for deciding of any controuer­sie. But as there be good lawes if they were executed dulie, so are there corruptions, and a­buses, not a few crept into them. For some­times you shall haue a matter hang in sute af­ter it is commenced a quarter of a yéere, halfe a yéere, yea, a twelue month, two or three yeeres togither, yea, seauen or eight yeeres now and then, if either friends or money can [Page] be made. This deferring of iustice is as dam­nable before God, as the sentence of false iudg­ment is, as that blessed martyr of God Maister Latimer hath said in a sermon made before King Edward the sixt. Besides this deferring and delaieng of poore mens causes, I will not say how iudgement is peruerted in the end. I réed them take héed to it that be the authors thereof. Therefore the reformed churches be­yond the seas are woorthie of commendations, for there the Iudges sit in the open gates, stréets, and high waies, that euery man that will may speake vnto them, and complaine if he haue occasion. And so farre from delaieng, or putting of poore mens causes be they, as they will not suffer any matter how weighty soeuer to hang in sute aboue one day, or two, or at the most thrée daies, which happeneth verie seldome. But if the lawes within euery particular countie or shire were duly admini­stred without parcialitie, and truly executed with all expedition, as they ought, and not so lingred as they be, then néeded not the poore people to run 100.200, yea 300. or 400. miles (as commonly they doe) to séeke iustice▪ when they might haue it néerer home: through the want whereof, besides that their sutes are like to hang in ballance peraduenture seuen yéeres, [Page] they hauing spent al in the end fall to extreme beggerie, which inconuenience might easilie be remoued, if all matters, and causes whatso­euer were heard at home in their owne shire, or countie with expedition. And to say the truth, what fooles are they (yea woorthie to be inaugured fooles with the laurell crowne of triple follie) that whilst they might haue iu­stice at home in their owne country, and all matters of controuersie decided amongst their neighbors and friends at home, will yet go to lawe two or thrée hundred miles distant from them, and spend all that they haue to inrich a sort of gréedie lawiers, when at the last a sort of ignorant men of their neighbors must make an end of it whether they will or not. This me thinke, if euerie good man would perpend in himselfe, he would neither go to lawe himself, nor yet giue occasion to others to doe the like.

I gather by your spéeches that these people are very contentious and quarellous, either else they would neuer be so desirous of reuenge, nor yet prosecute the lawe so seuere­ly for euery trifle.

They are very contentious indéed. Insomuch as if one giue neuer so small occasi­on to another, sute must straight be commen­ced, and to lawe go they as round as a ball, till [Page] either both, or at least the one become a beg­ger all daies of his life after.

But on the other side, if they shuld not go to lawe, then should they sustaine great wrong, and be iniuried on euery side.

Indéed the lawe was made for the administration of equitie and iustice, for the appeasing of controuersies & debates, and for to giue to euery man (Quod suum est) That which is his owne, but being now peruerted & abused to cleane contrarie ends (for now com­monly the law is ended as a man is frinded) is it not better to suffer a little wrong with pati­ence, referring the reuenge to him who saith: Mihi vindictam, & ego retribuam, Uengeance is mine, and I wil reward, than for a trifle to go to lawe, and spende all that euer he hath, and yet come by no remedie neither? Our sa­uiour Christ biddeth vs if any man will go to law with vs for our cote, to giue him our cloke also, and if any man will giue thee a blowe on the one cheeke, turne to him the other, where­by is ment, that if any man will iniurie vs, and doe vs wrong, we should not resist, nor trouble our selues, but suffer awhile, and with patience refer the due reuenge thereof to the Lord.

Why? Is it not lawful then for one [Page] Christian man, to go to lawe with another?

The Apostle saith many things are lawfull which are not expedient, and therfore although it be after a sort lawfull, yet for eue­ly trifle it is not lawfull, but for matters of importance it is. And yet not neither, if the matter might otherwise by neighbors at home be determined.

Yet some doubt whether it be law­full or no for one Christian man to go to lawe with another for any worldly matter, bring­ing in the apostle Paule rebuking the Corin­thians for going to lawe one with another.

The apostle in that place repre­hendeth them not for going to lawe for reaso­nable causes, but for that they being christians went to lawe vnder heathen iudges, which tended to the great discredite, and infamie of the Gospell. But certeine it is though some Anabaptists Quibus veritas odio est, and cer­teine other heritikes haue taught the contra­rie, yet it is certeine, that one christian man may go to law with another for causes reaso­nable. For it being true as it cannot be denied, that there is a certeine singularitie, inte­rest, and proprietie in euery thing, and the lawe being not onely the meane to conserue the same propriety, but also to restore it againe [Page] being violate is therefore lawfull, and may lawfully be attempted out, yet with this pro­uiso, that it is better, if the matter may other­wise be apeased at home, not to attempt lawe, than to attempt it. But if any schismatikes (as alas the worlde is too full of them) should alto­gither deny the vse of the lawe, as not christi­an, besides that the manifest word of God in euery place would easilie conuince them, the examples, and practises of all ages, times, countries and nations, from the first beginning of the world, togither with the example of our sauiour Christ himselfe, who submitted him­self to the lawes then established, would quick­lie ouerthrow their vaine imaginations. The lawe in it selfe, is the square, the leuell, and rule of equitie, and iustice, and therefore who absolutely contendeth the same not to be chri­stian, may well be accused of extréeme folly▪ But if the lawes be wicked and antichristian, then ought not good christians to sue vnto thē, but rather to sustaine all kind of wrong what­soeuer.

Then it séemeth by your reason, that if the lawe be so necessarie, as without the which Christian kingdomes could not stand, then are lawiers necessarie also for the execu­tion thereof.

They are most necessarie. And in my iudgement a man can serue God, in no cal­ling better, than in it, if he be a man of a good conscience, but in Dnalgne the lawiers haue such chauerell consciences, that they can serue the deuill better in no kind of calling than in that: for they handle poore mens matters cold­ly, they execute iustice parcially, & they receiue bribes gréedily, so that iustice is peruerted, the poore beggered, and many a good man iniuried therby. They respect the persons, and not the causes, mony, not the poore, rewards, and not conscience. So that law is turned almost top­sie turnie, and therefore happie is he, that hath least to doe with them.

The lawiers must néedes be verie rich if they haue such large consciences.

Rich quoth you? They are rich in­déede toward the deuill, and the world, but to­wards God and heauen, they are poore inough. It is no meruaile if they be rich and get much when they wil not speak two words vnder an angell (for that is called a councellers fee.) But how they handle the poore mens causes for it, God and their owne consciences can tell, and one day I feare me, they shall féele to their perpetuall paine, except they repent and a­mend.

How be iudgments executed there vpon offenders, transgressours, and male fac­tors, with [...]quitie, & expedition, or otherwise.

It gréeueth me to relate thereof vnto you, the abuses therein are so inormous. For if a felone, homicide, a murtherer, or else what gréeuous offender soeuer, that hath de­serued a thousand deaths, if it were possible, happen to be taken and apprehended, he is straightway committed to prison, and clapt vp in as many cold yrons as he can beare, yea, throwne into dungeons, and darke places vn­der the ground, without either bed, clothes, or any thing else to helpe himselfe withall, saue a little straw or litter bad inough for a dog to lie in. And in this miserie shall he lie amongst frogs, toades, and other filthie vermine, till lice eate the flesh of his bones. In the meane space hauing nothing to eate, but either bread and water, or else some other modicum scarce able to suffice nature, and many times it hap­neth, that for want of the same pittance they are macerate and shronke so low, as they either looke like ghosts, or else are famished out of hand. And this extreeme misery they lie in sometime (perhaps) a quarter of a yéere, some­times halfe a yéere, a tweluemonth, yea, some­times two or three yéeres, and perchance [Page] all their life though they haue deserued death, by their flagitious facts committed. Who séeth not that it were much better for them to die at once, than to suffer this extréeme miserie? Yea the sufferance of this extremitie is better vnto them, than the tast of present death it selfe. And therefore in the cities reformed beyond seas, there is notable order for this: for as soone any fellon or malefactor whatsoeuer, that hath de­serued death is taken, he is brought before the magistrate, witnesse comes in, and giues eui­dence against him, and being found gilty, and conuict by iustice, is presently without any further imprisonment, repriuation or delay, condemned, and being condemned, is led pre­sently to the place of execution, and so commit­ted to the sword.

What is the cause why they are kept so long before they go to execution in Dnalgne.

Sometimes it commeth to passe by reason of (will doe all) otherwise called mony, and sometimes by fréends, or both, for certeine it is, the one will not worke without the other. Hereby it commeth to passe, that great abuses are committed. For if any man that hath fréends and mony (as mony alwaies bringeth fréendes with him) chance to haue [Page] cōmmitted neuer so heinous, or flagicious a déed, whether robbed, stollen, slaine, killed, or murthered, or whatsoeuer it be, then letters walke, fréends bestir them, and mony carieth all away: yea, and though the lawe condemne him, iustice conuicteth him, and good conscience executeth him, yet must he néedes be repriued, and in the meane time his pardon by false sug­gestion forsooth must be purchased, either for fréendship or mony.

That is a great abuse, that he whom the lawe of God and of man doth con­demne, should be pardoned. Can man pardon or remit him, whom God doth condemne? Or shall man be more mercifull in euill, then the author of mercie himselfe, it is God that con­demneth, who is he that can saue? Therefore those that ought to die by the lawe of God, are not to be saued by the lawe of man. The lawe of God commandeth that the murtherer, the adulterer, the exorcist, magician, and witch, and the like, should die the death. Is it now in the power or strength of man to pardon him his life?

Although it be wilfull and purpo [...]sed murther, yet is the prince borne in hande that it was plaine chance medley (as they call it) méere casuall, and fortunate, and therefore [Page] may easily be dispensed withall. Indéede the wisedome of God ordeined, that if any man chanced to kill an other against his will, he should flie to certeine cities of refuge, and so be saued, but if it were prooued that he killed him wittingly, willingly, & prepensedly, then he should without al exception be put to death. And herein is great abuse, that two hauing committed one and the same fault the one shal be pardoned, and the other executed. If it be so that both haue committed offence worthy of death, let both die for it, if not, why should either die, Experience prooueth this true, for if a Gentleman commit a gréeuous offence, and a poore man commit the like, the poore shal be sure of his Sursum collum? But the other shall be pardoned. So Diogenes séeing a sort of poore men going to hanging fell into a great laughter. And being demanded wherefore he laughed, he answered at the vanitie, and follie of this blind word. For saith he, I sée great théeues lead little théeues to hanging. And to say the truth, before God, is not he a greater théefe that robbeth a man of his good name for euer, that taketh a mans house ouer his head, before his yéeres be expired, that wresteth frō a man his goods, his lands, and liuings, wher­vpon he, his wife, children and familie should [Page] liue, than he that stealeth a shéepe, a cow, or an oxe, for necessities sake onely, hauing not o­therwise to reléeue his neede? And is not he a great théefe that taketh great summes of mo­ny of the poore (vnder the names of [...]ées, and doth litle or nothing for them? Though this be not theft before the world, nor punishable by penall lawes, yet before God it is plaine theft, and punishable with eternall torments in hel. Let them take héede to it.

Cannot the prince then pardon any malefactor?

Some are of opinion that the prince by his power imperiall and proroga­tiue may pardon and remit the penaltie of any law, either diuine, or humane, but I am of opi­niō that if Gods law condemne him, no prince ought to saue him, but to execute iudgement, and iustice without respect of persons to all in­differently. But in causes wherin Gods lawe doth not condemne him, the prince may par­don the offender, if there appéere likelyhoode of amendment in him. And yet let the prince be sure of this, to answere at the day of iudg­ment before the tribunall seate of GOD, for all the offences that the partie pardoned shall commit any time of his life after. For if the prince had cutte him off when the [Page] lawe had passed on him, that euill had not béen committed. To this purpose I remember I haue heard a certeine pretie apotheg [...]e vtte­red by a iester to a king. The king had pardo­ned one of his subiectes that had committed murther, who being pardoned committed the like offence againe, and by meanes was par­doned the second time also, and yet filling vp the measure of his iniquitie, killed the third, and being brought before the king, the king being very sorie, asked why he had killed thrée men, to whom his iester standing by replied, saieng: No (O king) he killed but the first, and thou hast killed the other two: for if thou hadst hanged him vp at the first, the o­ther two had not béene killed, therefore thou hast killed them, and shalt answere for their bloud. Which thing being heard, the king han­ged him vp straightway as he very well deser­ued: yet notwithstanding I grant that a prince by his power regall, and prerogatiue imperial may pardon offenders, but not such as Gods lawes and good conscience doe condemne, as I said before. The power of a prince is compre­hended In Rebus licitis in Deo, but not In Re­bus illicitis contra Deum: In things lawfull in God, not in things unlawfull contrarie to God. No power or principalitie vpon the earth [Page] whatsoeuer may dispense with the lawe of God, but what it setteth downe must stand in­uiolable. Therefore if it be asked me wherein a prince may pardon any malefactor, I answer for the breach or violation of any humane lawe, ordinance, constitution, statute, or sanc­tion, but not against Gods word and lawe in any condition.

How is iustice ministred there, sincerely and truely, so as the poore haue no cause iustly to complaine, or otherwise?

If any haue cause to complaine (as alas too many haue) it is for want of due execution of the lawes, not for lacke of good lawes. For God be praised there be many good lawes, but indéed now and then through the negligence of the officers they are coldly exe­cuted. But if the lawes there in force were without parcialitie dulie executed, there shuld be n [...]iust occasion for any to complaine. And truly to speake my conscience there is great parcialitie in the magistrates and officers, nay great corruption. For if a rich man, and a poore man chance to haue to doe before them, the matter I warrant you shall quickly be en­ded, and my life for yours shall go vpon the rich man [...] side, notwithstanding the poore mans right be apparent to all the world. But [Page] if two poore men of equall estate go to lawe to­gither, then their sute shall hang three or foure yéeres, peraduenture seuen yéeres, a dozen, ye [...] twentie yéeres before it be ended, till either the one, or both be made beggers. For reforma­tion whereof I would wish iudges and offi­cers to respect the cause, not the persons, the matter, not the gaine? and not to regard either letter or any thing else, which might be sent them to peruert true iudgement. And iustice being ministred, then to read ouer their com­mendatorie letters in Gods name, remem­bring what the wise man saith: Gifts blinde the eies of the wise, and peruert iudgement. The lawiers I would wish to take lesse fées of their clients. For is not this a plaine theft be­fore God to take ten, twentie, or fortie shil­lings of one poore man at one time, and so much of a great sort at once, and yet to speake neuer a word for the most part of it? And not­withstanding that they can be present but at one barre at once, yet will they take diuers fées of sundry clients to speake for them at three or foure places in one day. The other of­ficers who grant foorth the warrants, the Subpoenas, the Scire facias, and diuers other writs, and those who kéepe the seales of the same, I would wish to take lesse fees also. For is not [Page] this too vnreasonable to take a crowne, or ten shillings for writing six or seuen lines, or little more. And then the kéeper of the seale, for a lit­tle waxe, he must haue as much as the other. And thus they sucke out (as it were) euen the very marrowe out of poore mens bones. The shirifs, bailifs, and other officers also, I would wish, for fées, for bribes, for friendship and re­wards, not to returne a Tarde venit, or a Non est inuentus, when they either haue sent the partie word to auoid couertly, or else looking through their fingers sée him, & wil not sée him, forcing herby the poore plaintife to lose not on­ly his great & importable charges in the lawe, but also peraduenture his whole right of that which he sueth for. Thus let euery officer by what kind of name or title soeuer he be called, or in what kind of calling soeuer he be placed, doe all things with single eie, and good con­science, that God may be glorified, the com­mon peace maintained, iustice supported, and their owne consciences discharged against the great daye of the Lorde, when all flesh shall be conuented before the tribunall seate of GOD all naked as euer they were borne, to render accounts of all their doo­ings, whether they bee good or badde, and to receiue a rewarde according to their déeds. [Page] By all which it appeareth that if any for want of iustice haue cause to complaine, it is tho­row the corruption of iniquitie, auarice, and ambition of gréedy and insaciable cormorants, who for desire of gaine, make hauocke of all things, yea, make shipwracke of bodies and soules to the deuill for euer, vnlesse they re­pent.

How farre are princes lawes to be obeied, in all things indifferently with­out exception?

In all things not contrarie to the lawe of God and good conscience, which if they be against God, and true godlinesse, then must we say with the apostles, Melius est deo obe­dire, quam hominibus, It is better to obey God than man.

If the prince than doe set foorth a lawe contrarie to the lawe of God, and do con­straine vs to doe that, that Gods words com­mandeth vs we shall not doe. In this or the like case, may subiects lawfully take armes, and rise against their prince?

No, at no hand, vnlest they will purchase to themselues eternall damnation, and the wrath of God for euer. For it is not lawfull for the subiects to rise vp in armes a­gainst their liege prince for any occasiō what­soeuer. [Page] For proofe whereof we read that our sauiour Christ was, not onely obedient to the maigistrates, and superior powers in all things, but also taught his apostles, disciples, and in them all people and nati­ons of the world, the very same doctrine. And therefore the apostle saith, Omnis ani­ma potestatibus superioribus subdita sit? Let euery soule submit himselfe to the higher powers, for there is no power but of God. And he that resisteth this power, resisteth the or­dinance of God, and purchaseth to himselfe e­ternall damnation. Peter also giueth the like charge, that obedience in all godlines be giuen to the superior powers, and that praiers and intercessions be made, for kings and rulers, and giueth the reason why, namely, that we may lead Vitam pacificam, A peaceable life vnder them.

Why? How then? If we shall not resist them, then we do obey them in any thing either good or bad.

No, not so neither. In all things not contrarie to Gods word we must obey thē, on paine of damnation. But in things contra­rie to the word and truth of God, we are thus to doe. We must depose and lay foorth our selues both bodie, and goods, life, and lime, (our [Page] conscience onely excepted, in the true obedi­ence whereof, we are to serue our God) euen all that we haue of nature, and committing the same into the hands of the prince, submit our selues, and lay downe our necks vpon the blocke, choosing rather to die than to doe any thing contrarie to the lawe of God and good conscience. And this is that, that the apostles ment when they saide: It is better to obey God than man. Not that obedience to man in all godlinesse is forbid, but that obedience to God is to be preferred before the obedience to man.

What if the prince be a tyrant, a wicked prince, and an ungodly, is he notwith­standing to be obeied?

Yea truely in the same order as I haue shewed before. For whether the prince be wicked, or godlye, hee is sent of GOD, bicause the Apostle saith: There is no power but of GOD. If the prince be a godlye prince, then is hee sent as a great blessing from GOD, and if hee be a tyrant, then is he raised of GOD for a scourge to the people for their sinnes. And therefore whether the prince be the one, or the other, he is to be obeied as before.

And bee kings and rulers to [Page] bee beloued, and praied for of their sub­iects?

That is without all doubt. For hee that hateth his prince in his hart, is a contemner of Gods ordinance, a traitour vn­to GOD, and to his countreye: yea hee is to loue his prince as well as himselfe, and better, if better can bee, and to praye for him as for himselfe. For that an infi­nite number doe rest and depend vppon his Maiestie, which doe not so vppon himselfe. So that the miscarrieng of him, were the destruction (peraduenture) of manye thou­sands.

This being so, then hath Dnal­gne great cause to praye for their prince, by whose woorthye indeuour, and wise gouerne­ment, the state of that realme is so peaceably maintained.

They haue great cause indéede not onely to loue hir Maiestie, but also to praye for hir Grace, and whosoeuer will not doe so, I beséech the LORDE in the bowels of his mercie, to stoppe their breath, and to take them awaye quicklye from the face of the earth. For by hir Highnesse wise gouernement, the realme is in peace, Gods worde flourisheth, and aboundance [Page] of al things floweth in the same, the Lord God be praised therefore, and preserue hir noble Grace long to reigne amongst vs. Amen.

Let vs procéed a little further, I pray you how is the youth of that country brought vp in learning, or otherwise?

The youth truely is well brought vp, both in good letters, nurture, and maners for the most part. For the better performance whereof, they haue excellent good schooles, both in cities, townes, and countries, wherin abun­dance of children are learnedly brought vp, But yet notwithstanding some parents are much to be blamed in the education of their children, for the most kéepe their sonnes to schoole, but for a time, till they can write and read, and well if all that too, and very seldome or neuer doe they kéepe them so long at their bookes, as vntill they atteine to any perfect knowledge indéed. So that by this means lear­ning doth and is like greatly to decay. And if one aske them, why they kéepe not their chil­dren to schoole till they prooue learned, they will answer, Bicause I sée learning and lear­ned men are little estéemed, and me thinke the best of them can hardly liue by the same. And therefore I will set him to an occupation, which will be alwaies sure. As herein they say [Page] true, so I cannot but lament the small prefer­ment now adaies that learning getteth in the world amongst men, & the smal account that is made of the same. This is the cause why lear­ning doth, and will in time greatly decay. For who is he that hauing spent all his substance vpon learning, yea his bodie, strength, and all, and yet can hardly liue thereby, and maintaine himselfe withall, that will couet after lear­ning, which is both so chargeable, and painfull to be come by?

Be there not Uniuersities, colled­ges, and frée schooles, where youth may bee brought vp in learning Gratis without any charges to their parents?

There are such places indéed. But alas they are abused & peruerted to other ends than was intended by them at the first. For whereas those places had great liuings, rents, reuenues, & possessions giuen to them, it was to this onely end and purpose, that those poore children whose parents were not able other­wise to maintaine them at learning, should be brought vp vpon the charges of the house, and not those whose parents are able to main­taine them of themselues. But now we sée the contrarie is true, and whereas they were gi­uen to maintaine none but the poore only, now [Page] they maintaine none but the rich onely. For except one be able to giue the regent or prouost of the house, a péece of mony, ten pound, twen­tie pound, fortie pound, yea, a hundred pound, a yoke of fatte oxen, or a couple of fine gel­dings, or the like though he be neuer so toward a youth, nor haue neuer so much néed of main­tenance, yet he comes not there I warant him. If he canot preuaile this way. Let him get him letters cōmendatory from some of reputation, and perchance he may spéed, in hope of benefite to insue. So that the places in the vniuersities and frée schooles, séeme rather to be solde for mony and frienship, then giuen gratis, to them that haue néede, as they ought to be.

Are there not many inferior scholes in the country besides, both for the instruction and catechising of youth?

There are so, almost in euery pa­rish. But alas, such small pittance is allowed the schoolmaisters, as they can neither buy thē libraries, nor which is lesse, hardly maintaine themselues, which thing altogither disuadeth them from their bookes, and is occasion why many a one snorteth in palpable ignorance all daies of their life.

Would you haue any man without exception, to take vppon him the office of a [Page] schoolmaister, and to teach the youth?

No at no hand. First I would wish that euery one that is a schoolmaster, how lear­ned, or vnlearned soeuer, should be examined, as wel for his religion, and his sufficiencie in knowledge, as also for his integritie of life, & being found sound in them all, to be alowed & admitted to teach. For if euerie one that wold should take vpon him to teach without further triall, then might there great inconuenience follow. For papists and other schismatikes, a­postataes, or else whatsoeuer, might thrust in themselues, & so corrupt the youth. Ignorant & vnlearned would take vpon them high lear­ning, & so delude their schoolers. And if his life should not be answerable to his profession, then should he peruert his auditorie also, Therefore in my iudgement is there great choise to be made of schoolmaisters. Thus they being tried, let them be admitted gratis, by authoritie. But now there is great abuses herein, for being found sufficient in all respects, yet must he be constrained to take a license, whether he will or not, and must pay x.xvi. or xx. shillings for it & yet will this serue him no longer, than he ta­rieth in that dioces, & comming into another he must pay as much there for y^e like license also, whereas peraduenture he shall scarcely get so [Page] much cléere in thrée or foure yéeres, in that dio­ces, they haue such fat pasture. But if they would néedes haue them to haue licenses, (which I grant to be very good.) I would wish they might haue them gratis, without mony, for if it be lawfull for them to teach for mony, it is also lawfull without. And if they be not woorthie, it is pittie that mony should make them woorthie, and againe, if they be woorthie, it is pittie that without mony they cannot be so accepted.

What way were best to be taken for the good education of youth?

It were good (if it might be brought to passe) that in euery parish throughout the Realme, there were an indifferent able man appointed for the instruction of youth in good letters, hauing a reasonable stipend alowed him of the same parish for his paines. But now they teach and take paines, for little or nothing, which vtterly discourageth them, and maketh manie a colde schooler, in Dnalgne, as experience daily teacheth.

Be there men of all kinde of trades, occupations, and artes, as there be in other countries.

Yea, truely: there are men of all sciences, trades, mysteries, faculties, occupa­tions, [Page] and artes whatsoeuer, and that as cun­ning as any be vnder the sunne. Yea, so expert they be, as if they would let a thing alone whē it is well, they were the brauest workmen in the world. But as they séeke to excell and sur­passe al other nations, in finenes of workman­ship, so now and than they reape the fruits of their vaine curiosity, to their owne detriment, hinderance, and decay.

How liue the marchant men a­mongst them, are they rich and wealthy, or but poore?

How should they be poore, gain­ing as they do, more then halfe in halfe in eue­rie thing they buy or sell? And which is more, sometimes they gaine double and triple, if I said quadruple I lied not.

I pray you how can that be so?

I will tell you. They haue mony to lay foorth vpon euerie thing, to buy them at the first, and best hand, yea, to ingrosse, and to store themselues with abundance of al things. And then will they keepe these marchandize till they waxe verie scarse, (and no maruaile for they buy vp all things) and so consequent­ly déere. And then will they sell them at their owne prices, or else (being able to beare the mony) they will keepe them still. By this meanes [Page] they get the deuill and all, besides these, they haue a hundred flights in their budgets to rake in gaine withall.

I pray you what be those?

They will go into the countries, and buy vp all the wooll, corne, leather, butter, cheese, bacon, or else what marchandize soeuer they knowe will be vendible, and these they transport ouer seas, whereby they gaine infinit summes of mony.

That is woonderfull that they are so permitted: are there no lawes, nor prohibitions to the contrarie, that no wooll, corne, or leather, shoulde be transported ouer seas?

There are good lawes, and great restraints to the contrary, in so much as they be apparent traitors to God, their prince and country, that carrie any of the foresaid things ouer without speciall licence thereto. Yet not­withstanding, either by hooke, or crooke, by night or day, by direct, or indirect meanes, ei­ther knowne or vnknowne, they wil conueigh them ouer, though their owne country want the same. But to auoide all dangers, they pur­chase a licence, & a dispensation for mony, bea­ring the prince in hand that they do it for some good cause, when indéed the cause is their owne [Page] priuate gaine. And for the spéedier obtaining of their desires, they demand licence for the ca­riage ouer but of so much and so much, when in truth they conuey ouer vnder the colour of this their licence ten times, twenty times, yea, a hundred times, fiue hundred times, yea, a thousande times as much more. And thus they delude their prince, impouerish their country, and inrich themselues, féeding, clothing and inriching our enimies with our owne treasure. Hereby it commeth to passe that all things are déerer, and scarser, than o­therwise they would be, if restraynt were had, and I warrant them many a blacke curse haue they of the poore commons for their do­ing.

Would you not haue licences granted for the transporting ouer of such things for no cause?

Yes. But first I would haue our owne people serued that they wante not in any case. For it is very vnméete to féede forren nations, and our owne country fa­mish at home. But if it were so, that Dnalgne flowed in abundance and plentie of all things, whatsoeuer are necessarie for the vse and su­stentation of man in this life, and other na­tions (prouided that they bee our fréendes [Page] and of christian religion) wanted the same, then would I wishe that some of our superflu­itie might be erogate to them, to the supplie of their necessities, but not otherwise. And this standeth both with the lawes of God, charitie, and good conscience.

These are marueilous sleights to get mony withall. But I pray you haue they no more?

They want none I warrant you, for rather than to faile, they haue their false waights, their counterfet ballanc [...]s, their a­dulterate measures, and what not, to deceiue the poore people withall, and to rake in mony. But the Wise man telleth them, that false ballances, counterfet weightes, and vntrue measures are abhomination to the Lord. And the Apostle telleth them, that God is the iust reuenger of all those that deceiue their bre­thren in bargaining. And yet shall you haue them in the sale of their wares to sweare, to teare▪ and protest, that before God, before Ie­sus Christ, as God shall saue my soule, as God shall iudge me, as the Lord liueth, as God re­ceiue me, as God helpe me, by God and by the world, by my faith and troth, by Iesus Christ, and infinite the like othes, that such a thing cost them so much, & so much, and it is woorth [Page] this much, and that much, when in truth they sweare as false, as the liuing Lord is true, as their owne consciences can beare them wit­nesse, and I feare me will condemne them at the day of the Lord, if they repent not. For if a thing cost them ten shillings, they will not blush to aske twentie shillings for it. If it cost them twentie shillings, they will not shame to aske forty shillings for it, and so of al others, doubling, tripling, and quadrupling the price thereof without either feare of God, or regard of good conscience.

What say you of the Drapers, and cloth sellers, liue they in the same order that the other doe?

Of Drapers I haue little to say, sauing that I thinke them cater cosins, or cosin germans to merchants. For after they haue bought their cloth, they cause it to be tentered, racked, and so drawne out, as it shall be both broader, and longer than it was when they bought it almost by halfe in halfe, or at lest by a good large sise. Now the cloth being thus stretched forth in euery vaine, how is it possi­ble either to endure, or hold out, but when a shower of raine taketh it, then it falleth and shrinketh in, that it is shame to sée it. Then haue they their shops and places where they [Page] sell their cloth commonly very darke and ob­scure, of purpose to deceiue the buiers. But Caueat emptor (as the old saieng is) Let the buiers take héed. For Technas machinant, & retia tendunt pedibus, as the saieng is: They meane deceit, and lay snares to intrap the féet of the simple. And yet notwithstanding they will be sure to make price of their racked cloth double, and triple more than it cost them. And will not sticke to sweare, and take on (as the other their confraters before) that it cost them so much, and that they doe you no wrong. God giue them grace to haue an eie to their consci­ences, and to content themselues with reaso­nable gaines.

I thinke there is great fault to bee found in the first makers of the cloth, for the naughtinesse thereof, as well as in the Dra­pers, is there not?

No doubt of that. For some put in naughty wool, and cause it to be spun & drawne into a very small thred, and then compounding with the Fuller to thicke it very much, and with the Clothier also to sheare it very lowe, and with some liquide matter, to lay downe the wooll so close, as you can hardly sée any wale, and then selleth it as though it were a very fine cloth indeed. Other some mixe good [Page] w [...]ll, and naughty wooll togither, and vsing i [...] as before, they sell it for principall good cloth, when it is no thing lesse. And then for their further aduantage, euery vaine, euery ioint, and euery thred must be so tentered and rac­ked, as I warrant it for euer being good af­ter. Now it being thus tentered at his hands, and after at the Drapers handes, I pray you how should this cloth be ought, or endure long?

Be there Goldsmithes there any store also, as in some other countries there be?

There are inow, and more than a good meanie. They are (for the most part) very rich, and wealthye, or else they turne the fairest side outwarde as manye doe in D [...]algne. They haue their shops and stalles fraught and bedecked with chaines, rings, golde, siluer, and what not woonderfull rich­ly. They will make you any monster, or antike whatsoeuer of golde, siluer, or what you will. They haue store of all kinde of plate whatsoeuer. But what? Is there no deceit in all these goodlye shewes? Yes too many. If you will buy a chaine of golde, a ring, or any kinde of plate, besides that you shall paye almost halfe in halfe more than it is woorth (for they will perusade [Page] you the workmanship of it comes to so much, the fashion to so much, and I cannot tell what) you shall also perhaps either haue that golde which is naught, or else at least mixt with o­ther drossie rubbage, and refuse mettall, which in comparison is good for nothing. And some­times or for the most part you shal haue tinne, lead, and the like mixt with siluer. And againe in some things some will not sticke to sell you siluer gilt for gold, and well if no worse too now and then. But this happeneth very sel­dome, by reason of good orders, and constitu­tions made for the punishment of them that offend in this kind of deceit, and therfore they seldome dare offend therein, though now and then they chance to stumble in the darke.

Haue you good wines in Dnalgne?

Indéede there are excellent wines as any be in the world, yet not made within the Realme, but comming from beyond seas: which when the vintners haue once got into their clouches, and placed in their sellers, I warrant you they make of one hogshead al­most two, or at lest, one and a halfe, by mixing & blenting one with another, & infusing other liquor into them. So that it is almost vnpossi­ble, to get a cup of pure wine of it selfe at the tauerne. But harshe, rough, stipticke, and hard [Page] wine, neither pleasant to the mouth, nor whol­some to the bodie. And notwithstanding that they gaine (welneare) one hogshead in another, yet shall their measures, their gallons, pints, and quarts be so spare, and their prices so hie, that it is woonderfull to sée. And if a poore sim­ple man go to drinke a pint of wine for the strengthening of his bodie, and for necessities sake onely, he shall be sure to haue that wine brought him, that is too bad, though his monie (I am sure) is as good as the rich mans. But if a man of countenance come to drinke for plea­sure & nicenesse, he shall haue of the best wine in the seller, though his mony be no beter than the poore mans. With infinite the like abuses, which I omit.

Haue you any thing to say of But­chers, and those that kill and sel meate to eate?

Nothing but this: that they are not behind in their abuses, fallacies, and deceits. For whereas they pay a certeine price for a fat béefe, they are so impudent that they thinke their market is naught, except they may gaine halfe in halfe, or the best quarter at the least. And to the end their meate may be more sale­able to the eie, the fairer, and the fatter, they will kill their beasts, and suffer the bloud to remaine within them still, for this cause that [Page] it may incorporate it selfe in the flesh, and so thereby the flesh may not onely be the weigh­tier (for in some places they buy all by waight) but also may séeme both fresher, fairer, newer, tenderer, and yonger. And which is more com­monly they vse to blowe, and puffe it vp with winde, to the end it may séeme bigger, fatter, and fairer to the eie. Or if the meate it selfe be leane, and naught, then will they take the fat of other meate, and pin vpon the same very ar­tificially, and all to delude the eies of the be­holders. And though it be neuer so old meate, tough, and stale, yet will they sweare, protest, and take on woonderfully, that it is very new, fresh, and tender. So that no more in them than in others, there is little conscience at all. There be some of them also now and then that will not sticke to sell meate which hath died (perchance) in a ditch, if it be worth the eating (which is most lamentable) and yet wil beare the world in hand that it is excellent meate, that it died kindly, and so soorth. So that here­by infinite diseases are caught, and manie times present death insueth to the eaters thereof.

Is meate déere or good cheape there for the most part?

It is commonly déere, seldome good [Page] theape, and the reason is, bicause a sort of in­saciable cormorants, gréedie grasiers I meane, who hauing raked togither infinite pasture, féed all themselues, and will not sell for anie reasonable gaine, and then must the But­chers néedes sell déere, when as they buie déere.

Why? would you haue no grasi­ers, then how coulde there bee anie meate fatted?

Yes I would haue grasiers. But I would not haue a few rich cobs to get into their clowches almost whole countries, so as the poore can haue no reléefe by them. For by this meanes pastures and groundes are not onely excessiuely déere, but also not to be got of any poore men for monie, whereby it com­meth to passe, that the poore are impouerished, and the rich onlie benefited. Yea so greatly are the poore hereby inthralled, that they can hard­ly get a peece of ground to kéepe so much as a poore cow or two vpon for the maintenance of themselues, and their poore families. This is a great abuse: for by this meanes rich men eat [...] vp poore men, as beasts eate vp grasse.

Doe the gentlemen and others, take in commons & inclosures (as your words séeme to implie) for their better féeding?

Yea, almost all indifferently. For whereas before was any commons, heathes, moores, plaines, or frée places of féeding for the poore and others, euen all ingenerall, now you shall haue all seuerall, inclosed, and appro­priate to a few gréedy gentlemen, who will neuer haue inough, till their mouths be full of clay, and their bodie full of grauell. Commons and moores which were woont to be the onely staie of the poore, & whervpon eche might kéepe cattle, both neate and shéepe, according to his estate, are now taken from them, wherby ma­nie are constrained either to famish, or else to beg their breade from doore to doore. So that in proces of time if these inclosures be suffered to continue, the state of the whole Realme will mightily decay, a few shall be inriched, & many a thousand poore people both men, women, and children, in citie and country, vtterlie begger­ed. Oh it was a goodlie matter, when the poore man might turne out a cow, or two, & certeine numbers of shéepe to the commons, and haue them kept well vpon the same, both winter & sommer, freely without costing them ought, whereas now they are inclosed, made seueral, and imploied to the priuate commoditie of a few ambicious gentlemen, so as the poore man cannot kéepe so much as a pig or a goose vpon [Page] the same.

It is great pittie that such oppres­sion of the poore should be borne withall or suf­fered in any of what degrée soeuer.

It is so. But what than. You shall haue some that not for the benefit of grafing, and féeding onely will take in commons, and inclosures, but also some that for vaine glorie, worldly pompe, promotion & foolish pleasure, will not sticke to pull downe whole townes. subuert whole parishes, and turning foorth all a begging, rather then to faile, make them parkes, chases, warrants and I cannot tell what of the same. And when they haue thus done, their bucks, their does, their stags, harts, hinds, conies and the like, not onely not fead, intra gyrum suum, Within their circuit, but eate vp and deuoure all the poore mens fields, [...]orne, grasse and all. So that it is hard if any poore mans corne scape their fangs within a dozen myles compasse, which is a pitifull and a lamentable case.

Would you not haue parkes, and chases for game?

I disalow them not. But I would not haue them to be made of the poore mens li­uings, nor yet to stand to the preiudice of the whole country adioining. Therefore if they [Page] will haue parkes and chases. First let them see that they be of their owne proper lande, and then that they be no annoiance to the country about, and then let them haue them in the name of God.

Be there any grasiers of sheepe there also.

Two manie, if it pleased God. For nowe euerie meane gentleman if he can pretend (though neuer so little) title to any cō ­mon, heath, moore, or pasture, he will haue it, quo iure, quaue iniuria, Either by hooke or crooke. And wheras before time there hath bin a whole parish or towne maintained vpon the same, now is there no bodie there dwelling, but a sheepeheard and a dogge folling vnder a hush▪ Thus are whole parishes and townes made praies to rich grasiers. Yea, you shall haue some grasiers to keepe fiue hundred, a thousand, fiue thousand, ten thousand, twentie thousand sheepe of his owne at one time, now iudge you what infinite commodities ariseth hereof. Besides that, when they fell their wooll (as though they gayned not inough o­therwise) it is a worlde to sée what subtil­ties, (I will not saie what falsities) they vse in the sale thereof. As first, to inter­mixt and blente the good and naughtie wooll [Page] togither, to winde it vppe clooselie that if shall not be seene within. And which is more, because they sell all by waight, they will not sticke to vse sinister meanes to make it pease well in waight. Some lay it after it is clipped from the sheepes backe in a moyst seller, vnderneath the grounde to the ende that the moysture, humiditie, and wette of the seller may instill into it, and so may pease the more. Othersome will cast wette salt into it, which in time will liqui­fie, and cause it to be the waightier. With manie other the like wicked sleights, and le­gerdimeanes, whereof for that I would ra­ther giue them a taste in hope of amendment, then a plaine description for feare of displea­sing them, at this time I will omit to speake any more till further occasion be offered.

Is the lande there possessed in com­mon, or else is their propertie in all things, and so consequently landlords?

There is not onelie a proper­tie in lands there, but also in all things else, and so landlords inow more then be good ones iwis.

Doe they let out their lands, their farmes, and tenements, so as the poore tenants may liue well vpon them.

Oh no. Nothing lesse. But rather the contrarie is most true. For when a gentle­man or other hath a farme, or a lease to let: first he causeth a surueior to make strict inqui­rie what may be made of it, and how much it is woorth by yéere, which being found out, and signified to the owner, he racketh it, straineth it, and as it were so setteth it on the tenter hookes, stretching euery vaine, and ioint there­of, as no poore man can liue of it. And yet if he might haue it fréely for this racked rent too, it were somewhat well. But (out alas, and fie for shame) that cannot be. For though he pay ne­uer so great an annuall rent, yet must be pay at his entrance a fine, or (as they call it) an in­come often pound, twenty pound, forty pound, threescore pound, an hundred pound, whereas in truth the purchase thereof is hardly woorth somuch. So that hereby the poore man if hee haue scraped any little thing togither, is for­ced to disburse it at the first dash before he en­ter the doores of his poore farme, wherin, what through the excessiue fine, and the unreasona­ble rent, he is scarse able to buy his dog a lofe, liuing like a begger, or little better all his life after. The time hath béene, and not long since, when men feared God, & loued their brethren, that one might haue had a house, with pasture [Page] lieng to it, yea good farmes, leases, and liuings for little or nothing. Or (as some hold) for a Gods penie as they called it. But howsoeuer it be, certeine it is, that that farme or lease, which one might haue had then for ten shil­lings, is now woorth ten pound. For twentie shillings, now is woorth twentie or threescore pound. For fortie shillings, is now woorth fortie pound, or an hundred pound and more.

Then I perceiue, they let not out their land after the old rent: doe they?

No. You may be sure of that, they loue nothing worse. They cannot at any hand brooke or digest them that would counsel them to that.

Why? Haue not landlords autho­ritie, and may they not make as much of their owne lands as they can? They count that good policie, and I haue heard them say: Is it not lawfull for me to liue vpon mine owne, and to get as much for it as I can?

They must first consider that the earth is the Lorde (as the Psalmograph saith: Domini est terra, & plenitudo eius, The earth is the Lords, and the fulnesse thereof) and all that dwelleth therein. And therefore being the Lords in propertie, it is theirs but in vse onely. And yet not so. But that they [Page] ought to lay it foorth to the support of the poore, that all may liue iointly togither, & maintaine y^e state of the common wealth to Gods glorie. For otherwise if a few rich cobs shuld haue al, & the poore none▪ it shuld come to passe; that the state of the cōmon wealth would soone decay, & come to confusion. They ought also to consider how they came by their lāds, whether by right or wrong. If by right, then are they bound by Gods lawe, and good conscience to let forth the same so as the poore may well liue vpon them. But if they posses the wrongfully, then ought they to surrender their tytle, and giue it to the right heire: but take them with that fault & cut of their necks. No man ought to poole and pill his brother, nor yet to exact, and extort of him more than right, & reason requireth, being sure that the same measure which he measureth to others, shal be measured to him againe▪ Euery one must so deale with his owne, so let it out, & so liue as others may liue by him & not himself alone, for the earth is comon to al Adams chil­dren, & though fortune haue giuen more abun­dance to some than to other some, yet dame na­ture hath brought foorth al alike, & wil receiue them againe into hir wombe alike also. And therefore ought euerie christian to doe to o­thers, as they would wish to be done to, which [Page] lawe if it were obserued well, would cut of al oppression whatsoeuer.

I pray you how came noble men, and gentlemen by their lands at the first?

Cicero saith that in the beginning before the world was impeopled men cōming into huge & wast places inhabitable, either toke to thēselues asmuch land as they would or else wan it by y^e sword, bought it by purchase, had it by gift, or else receiued it from their forefa­thers, by lineal discent, or hereditary possessiō. Which saieng of his must néedes be true both in the people of the former world & in vs also. Then seeing this is so, ought not euery good christian to set forth his lande so as poore men may liue vpon it aswel as himselfe▪ whosoeuer doth not this, eschewing al kind of exaction pol­ling, pilling & shauing of his poore tenants, he is no perfect member of Christ, nor doth not as he would be done by.

You talked before of fines, and in­comes, what if a poore man be not able to paye them, what then?

Then may he go sue y^e goose, for house gets he none, y^e deui [...]l shal haue it before him, if he will giue him mony inough: no, if y^e fine be not paid (thogh y^e rent be neuer so gret) he shall haue a fig, assone as a house. If y^e a poore man haue got neuer so litle a stock to liue vpon, & to [Page] maintaine his occupation or trade withall, yet shall he be constrained to sell the same, yea, peraduenture all the goods and implements he hath to pay this fine, so that during y^e whole terme of his life, he shall hardly recouer the same againe. And then his lease being expired, out of doores goes he, for that he is not able to pay as great a fine or greater than before. Thus are many a one with their wiues, chil­dren, and whole families turned out a beging, and die not a fewe of them in extreeme mise­rie.

I thought one might haue had a farme, or a lease for a reasonable rent yéerely, without any fine or income paieng.

One would thinke so. For paieng as much yeerely, as can be made of the thing it selfe, I wonder what deuill put it into their heads, to receiue such fines and incomes to vn­doe the poore withall. The deuill himselfe I thinke will not be so straite la [...]d, nor yet so ni­gard to his seruants, as they are to their poore tenants. For whereas they will not let out a farme or a lease for one and twentie yeeres without a great fine, the deuill will giue them his whole territorie and kingdome of hell, to their inheritance for euer, and that freely, pai­eng nothing for the same. And yet notwith­standing [Page] all this. There are some landlords, (nay lewdlords) that hauing racked their rents to the vttermost, exacted fines, & made all that euer they can of their farmes, will yet proceede further, and as men neuer content with inough, will haue their poore tenants to pay a yeere or two yeeres rent before hande, promising them (before they haue it) that they shall pay no more rent yeerelie, till the same be runne vp. But when they haue it, they pay their yeerely rent notwithstanding, and neuer receiue any restitution for the other. And at euerie change forsooth they must take newe leases, and pay new fines, being borne in hand that their leases before are insufficient, and of no effect. And sometimes foure or fiue yeres yea, ten, twentie, fortie, or fiftie yeeres before their former lease be expired, shall they be con­strained to renue their leases, and disburse great somes, or else haue their houses taken o­uer their heads. Besides, as though these pol­lages and pillages were not ill inough, if their leases be not warely and circumspectly made (all quirks, and quiddities of the lawe obser­ued) they will finde such meanes (or else it shal go verie hard) that the poore man shall for­fait his lease, before his lease be expired: which thing if it happen, out goes the poore man, [Page] come on it what will.

Are the instruments, the writings, & cōueiāces in that land so intricate, as they are hard to be kept, for so I gather by your words?

Yea truly. For whereas in times past when men dealt vprightly, and in the feare of God, sixe or seuen lines was sufficient for the assurance of any péece of land whatsoe­euer, now 40.60.100.200.500. nay a whole skin of parchment, and sometimes 2. or 3. skins will hardly serue. Wherin shalbe so many pro­uisoes, so many circumstances, so many excep­tions, particles, & clauses, & so many obseruan­ces, that it is hard for a poore ignorant man to kéep halfe of thē: and if he fail in one of the lest, you knowe what followeth. In former time a mās bare word was sufficient, now no instru­ment, band, nor obligation can be sure inough. Fy vpō vs, what shal becom of vs? we are they of whom the prophet speaketh, saieng: There is no faith, there is no truth nor righteousnes left vpon the earth. God be mercifull vnto vs.

Seing that farms, and leases are so déere, I am persuaded that euerie thing else is déere also: is it not so?

Yea truly it cannot be chosen. And yet it is strange, that in abundance of althings there shuld be dearth of all things, as there is.

Who is it long of, can you tell?

Truly of the landlords onlie in my simple iudgment: for when as they inhance the rents, & set their fines on tenter as they do, how should the poore man do? Must he not sel al his things a great deale the deerer? Else how shuld he either saue himselfe, pay his rent, or main­taine his familie? so that these gréedy landlords are the very causers of al the derth in Dnalgne for truly they are worse than the caterpillers & locusts of Egypt, for they yet left some thing vndeuoured, these nothing, they spoiled but for a time, these for euer: those by commandement from God, these by commission from the diuel.

How I pray you doe these iollie fellowes spend these wicked gotten goods?

I shame to thinke, & I blush to tell you how. For, for the most part, they spend it in dicing, carding, bowling, tennise plaieng, in ri­oting, feasting, & banketing, in hauking, hun­ting, & other the like prophane exercises. And not onlie vpon these things do they spend their goods (or rather the goods of the poore) but also in pride their Summū gaudiū, & vpon their dan­sing minions, that minse it ful gingerlie God wot, tripping like gotes that an egge wold not brek vnder their féet. But herof inough, & more than perchance wil plese their dein [...]y humors.

Do they excéed in pride of apparel, or are they very tēperate, & sober minded people?

They are not onely not inferior to any nation in the world in the excesse of ap­parell, but are farre woorser, if woorser can be, For the taylers doe nothing else but inuent new fashions, disguised shapes, and monstrous formes of apparell euery day. Yea surely I thinke they studie more in one day for the in­uention of new toies, and strange deuises in apparell, than they doe in seauen yeeres, yea, in all the daies of their life for the knowledge of Gods word.

Me thinke then by your reasons it séemeth, that Tailors are the causers of all that monstrous kind of attire worne in Dnal­gne, and so consequently are guiltie of all the euill committed by the same.

You say very truly. For Mali ali­cuius author, ipsius mali, & malorum omnium quae ex inde orientur, reus erit coram Deo, The author of any euill, is not onely giltie be­fore God of the euill committed, but also of all the euill, which springeth of the same. There­fore I would wish them to beware, & not Cō ­municare alienis peccatis, To be partakers of other mens sinnes, for be sure they shall finde inough of their owne to answer for. But so far are they from making conscience hereof, that they heape vp sinne vpon sinne. For if a man [Page] aske them how much cloth, veluet, or silke wil make a cote, a dublet, a cloke, a gowne, hosen, or the like, they must néeds haue so much, as they may gaine the best quarter thereof to themselues. So play they with the lace also: for if tenne yards would serue, they must haue twentie, if twentie would serue, they must haue fortie, if fortie woulde serue, they must haue sixtie, if sixtie would serue, they must an hundred, and so forward. Besides that, it must be so drawne out, stretched, and pulled in in the sowing, as they get the best quarter of it that way too. Then must there as much go for the making, as halfe the garment is woorth. Besides this, they are in league, and in sée with the Drapers and Clothsellers, that if a man come to them to desire them to helpe them to buy a péece of cloth, and to bring them where good is, they will straightway conduct them to their feer, and whatsoeuer price hee setteth of the cloth, they persuade the buier it is good, and that it is woorth the money, whereas indéed it is nothing so, nor so. And thus they betwixt them diuide the spoile, and he (the tailor) receiues his wages for his faith­full seruice done. If a man buy a garment of them made, hee shall haue it very faire to the eie (therfore it is true: Omne quod gliscit non [Page] est aurum, Euerie faire thing is not the best) but either it shalbe liued with filthie baggage, and rotten geare, or else stretched & drawne out vpon the tenter, so as if they once come to wet­ting, they shrinke almost halfe in halfe, so as it is a shame to sée them. Therefore I aduise eue­ry one to sée to his garments himselfe▪ and ac­cording to the old prouerbe: Sit oculus ipsi co­quus, Let his eie be his best cooke, for feare lest he be serued of the same sawce, as manie haue béene to their great hinderance.

I haue heard it saide that they vse great ruffes in Dnalgne, do they continue them still as they were woont to doe, or not?

There is no amendement in any thing that I can sée, neither in one thing nor in other, but euery day woorser and woorser, for they not only continue their great ruffes still, but also vse thē bigger than euer they did. And wheras before they were too bad, now they are past al shame & honestie, yea most abhominable and detestable, and such as the diuell himselfe would be ashamed to weare the like. And if it be true, as I heare say, they haue their star­ching houses made of purpose, to that vse and end only, the better to trimme and dresse their ruffes to please the diuels eies withall.

Haue they starching houses of pur­pose made to starch in? Now truly that passes [Page] [...]hall that euer I heard. And do they nothing in those brothell houses (starching houses I shuld say) but onelie starch bands and ruffes?

No, nothing else, for to that end on­ly were they erected, & therfore now are conse­crate to Belzebub and Cerberus archdiuels of great ruffes.

Haue they not also houses to set their ruffes in, to trim them, and to trick them as well as to starch them in?

Yea marry haue they, for either the same starching houses (I had almost said far­ting houses) do serve the turn, or else they haue their other chambers and secret closets to the same vse, wherein they tricke vp these cart-whéeles of the diuels charet of pride, leading the direct way to the dungeon of hell.

What tooles and instruments haue they to set their ruffes withall. For I am per­suaded they cannot set them artificially inough without some kind of tooles?

Very true: and doe you thinke that they want any thing that might set forth their diuelrie to the world? In faith sir no, then the diuell were to blame if he should serue his cli­ents so, that maintaine his kingdome of pride with such diligence as they doe. And therefore I would you wist it, they haue their tooles and instruments for the purpose.

Whereof be they made I pray you, or howe?

They be made of yron and stéele, and some brasse, kept as bright as siluer, yea and some of siluer it selfe, and it is well, if in processe of time they grow not to be gold. The fashion whereafter they be made, I cannot re­semble to any thing so well as to a squirt, or a squib [...]e, which little children vsed to squirt out water withall, and when they come to starching, and setting of their ruffes, than must this instrument be heated in the fire, the better to stiffen the ruffe. For you know heate will drie, and stiffen any thing. And if you woulde know the name of this goodly toole, forsooth the deuill hath giuen it to name a putter, or else a putting sticke, as I heare say. They haue also another instrument called a setting sticke, either of wood or bone, and sometimes of gold and siluer, made forked wise at both ends, and with this (Si diis placet) they set their ruffes. But bicause this cursed fruit is not yet grown to his full perfection of ripenesse, I will there­fore at this time say no more of it, vntil I here more.

What is the leather in that country excellent good, and wel tanned, or but indiffer­ently. I haue heard some complaine of it.

There is of both sorts as of all thing [...] else, but as there is some naught (I can not denie) so is there othersome as good, as any is vnder the sunne. And yet I must needes confesse, there is great abuse in the [...]anners, makers, curriers, and dressers of the same: for you shall haue some leather scarcely halfe tan­ned, so that within two or thrée daies or a wéek wearing (especially if it come in any weat) wil straight way become browne as a hare backe, and which is more, fléete and run abroad like a dishclout, and which is most of all, will holde out no water, or very little. And the saieng is (Erubesco dicere, I shame to speake it) that to the ende they may saue lyme and barke, and make the spéedier returne of their mony, they will take vp their hides before they b [...]e halfe tanned, and make sale of them. And as herein they are faultie and much to be blamed, so in the surprising of their hides, they are worthie of reprehension. For that which they buy for ten shillings, they will hardly sell for twentie shillings, that which they buy for twentie shillings they will not willingly sell for fortie shillings. And thus by this meanes, they make shooes vnreasonable deere.

Then the fault is not in the shoo­makers onely, that shooes be so deere?

There is fault inough in them al­so. For wheras the others inhause the price of their hides excessively, these felowes, racke it very vnconcionably. And yet if the shooes were good, though déere, it were somwhat tollerable, but when they shall be both naught, and yet déere too, it is too bad, and abhominable. Now if you aske the shoomakers in whom the fault doth consist, they will answere you strait in the [...]anner. But this is certeine, that as there is a horrible fault in the tanner, so there is more, or as much in the shoomaker. For first of all the shoomaker liquoreth his leather, with waterish liquor, kitthen stuffe, and all kinde of baggage mingled togither. And as though that were not ill inough, they saie they vse to put salt in the liquor, wherewithall they grease the lea­ther of purpose, to the ende that the leather shal neuer hold out water. And truelie it is verie likelie, they doe so, or some such like thing, for surelie almost none of their leather will holde out water, nor scarselie durt neither. Besides this it is a worlde to see how lowsely they shall be sowed, with hotte alles, and burn­ing threedes, euerie stitche an inch or two from another, so as with in two or three daies you shall haue them seamerent and all too betorne. And yet as though this were not [Page] ill inoughe they adde more. Sometimes they will sell you calues leather for cow leather, horse hides for oxe hides, and truelie I thinke rotten shéepe skins for good substantial & dure­able stuffe. And yet shall a man pay for these as well as for better stuffe. And to the ende they may séeme gaudie to the eie, they must be stiched finelie, pincked, cutte, karued, ra­sed▪ nickt, and I cannot tell what. And good reason, for else would they neuer be sold. The inwarde soole of the shooe commonlie shall be no better then a cattes skinne, the heeles of the shooes shall be little better. And if the sooles be naught (as they be indeede, yet must they be vnderlaied with other peeces of leather, to make them seeme thicke, and excellent stuffe, whereas indeede they are nothing lesse. And to make the sooles stiffe, and harde, they must be parched before the fire, and then are they most excellent sooles, And such as will neuer be worne, no I thinke not in halfe a coopple of daies, which is a woonderfull thing. Oh, farewell for­mer worlde, for I haue hearde my Father saie, and I thinke it most certeinely true, that a paire of shooes in those daies woulde haue kept a man as drie as a feather, though he had gone in water all the daye thorowe, [Page] Yea, all the weeke thorow, to the very last day, and would haue serued a man almost a whole yeere togither, with a little repairing. But now five or sixe paire, halfe a score, yea, twen­tie paire of shooes will scarsely serue some a yeere, such excellent stuffe are they made of. But let all shooemakers tanners, and the rest, take héed, for at the day of iudgement they shal render accounts for this their doing. And here­of hitherto.

Be there any Brokers, or such kind of fellowes in your country?

If it be a thing that is good, it is a doubt whether it be there, or no, but if it bee naught (as brokerie is) then past peraduenture it is there.

What maner of fellowes are those Brokers, for truly their profession, and the vse thereof is vnknowne to me, saue onely that I haue heard of some of their dealings?

Séeing that you are ignorant of this goodly mysterie, and high profession of brokerie, and also so desirous to knowe the truth of them, I will in few words (as briefly as I can) declare vnto you the substance there­of. These Brokers are iolly fellowes forsooth, and such as in the heginning of their occupati­on, haue either iust nothing, or else very little [Page] at all, who when they haue attempted, and as­saied by all kind of meanes, and waies to liue, and cannot by any of them al either any thing thriue, or which is lesse, not so much as main­taine their poore estate withall, though but meanly, then fall they into acquaintance with loose, dissolute, and licentious persons, either men or women, to whom all is fish that comes to net, and who haue limed fingers, liuing vp­on pilfering, and stealing, and of these they-buy for little or nothing, whatsoeuer they shal haue filched from any. And thus by this meanes in processe of time, they feather their nests well inough, and growe (many of them) to great substance and wealth.

Will they buy any thing what­soeuer commeth to hand?

Yea all things indifferently with­out any exception. All is good fish with them that comes to net. They will refuse nothing whatsoeuer it be, nor whom soever bringeth it, though they be neuer so suspitious, no al­though it be as cléere as the day, that it hath béene purloined by sinister meanes from some one or other. And can you blame them? For why? They haue it for halfe it is woorth.

What wares be they (for the most part) which these Brokers doe buy and sell?

I told you they wil refuse nothing▪ But especially they buy remnants of silks, vel­uets, satins, damasks, grograins, taffeties, lace either of silke, gold, siluer, or any thing else that is worth ought. Othersome buy cloakes, hose [...] dublets, hats, caps, coates, stockings, & the like. And these goodly marchandize, as they haue them good cheape, so they will sel them againe to their no small gaines.

If this be true, that they will receiue all, and buy al that comes to hand, than it must néedes he that this is a great prouocation▪ to many wicked persons, to filch & steale whatso­euer they can lay their hands vpon, seing they may haue such good vent for y^e same? Is it not?

You say very true. And therfore I am perswaded that this dunghill trade of bro­kerie newly sprong vp, & coined in the deuils minting house the shoppe of all mischiefe hath made many a théefe moe then euer would haue bin, & hath brought many a one to a shamefull end at Tiburne, & else where. Yea I haue hard prisoners (and not any almost but they sing the same song) when they haue gone to execution, declaime, & crie out against brookers. For said they, if brokers had not bin, we had not come to this shamefull death, if they would not haue receiued our stollen goods, we woulde neuer [Page] haue stollen them, and if we had not stollen them we had not bin hanged.

Then it semeth by your reasons, that brokers are in effect accessary to the goods felo­niouslie stolen, & are worthie of y^e same punish­ment y^• the others that stale thē are worthy of?

They are so, if before they buy them they know precisely that they are stolen, & yet notwithstanding will not onely willingly buy them, but also rather animate, than disanimate them to persevere in their wickednes, as this their gréedy buieng of their wares doth argue y^t they doe. This maketh many a tailer to aske more cloth, more silk, veluet, & lace, than he ne­deth, & all to the ende the broker may haue his share, for be they neuer so litle scraps or shreds or short ends of lace, or smal peces, of veluet, sa­tan, silk or y^e like, the broker wil giue mony for thē, with a wet finger. This maketh many ser­uāts to pilfer, filch, & purloin frō their masters, some a yard or two of veluet, satin, taffety, lace silk, & what not, some hats cots, cloks, & the like & some one thing, some another: this hindereth the merchant man, is discomodious to y^e tailer, & beneficial vnto none, but to thēselues: & ther­fore as they be the seminaries of wickednes, so I besech God, they may be supplanted, except they amend, which I hardly looke for at their hands.

What woulde you haue them to do, that they may exercise their trade, with good conscience, both before God, and the world?

I would wish them to doe thus, which if they would doe, they might vse their trade in the feare of GOD, both with good conscience before the Lord, with honestie be­fore the world, and finallie to the lesse detri­ment of the common wealth. First let them be sure, that the goods which they buy be truely and iustly come by of the sellers thereof. And to the end, that herein they may not be decei­ued. Let them examine the matter strictly, where they had it, whose it is, vpon what occa­sion they would sel it. And in conclusion not to buy it, vntill they haue gone themselues to the right owners of the goodes, and if they find all things well, that they may with good consci­ence buy it, let them giue reason for it, else not. And if euery brooker would deale thus, their would not so many false knaues bring them such lauish of stollen goods, as they do, neither should their trade grow as it doth into hatred, and contempt.

You saide before (except I be decei­ued) that if they know before they buy any wares, that the same is stollen, if they than buy them, they are accessary to the same goods so [Page] felonously stollen, & so are worthie of the same punishment, that the principals are woorthie of, I pray you what punishment is inflicted vpon accessaries in Dnalgne.

Accessories are punishable by the lawes of Dnalgne with the same punishment that the principals are to be punished withall (for so the lawe standeth) but in the execution thereof, we sée the cleane contrarie practised. For when as a théefe, or a fellon stealeth any thing, hee bringeth it to his receiuer, who though he knowe it to be stolen, yet with ala­critie admitteth it into his custodie, and retei­neth it, hereby making himselfe accessorie, and guiltie of the felonie committed. And yet not­withstanding when execution is to be done for the same, the principall is (peraduenture) han­ged vp, the other that is the accessorie is not once spoken of, nor none can saie blacke is his eie. But howsoeuer it be, I cannot be other­wise persuaded, but that the receiuers, and ac­cessories are a great deale more woorthie of death (by the penall lawes) than he who stea­leth the thing it selfe whatsoeuer it be. Bicause if they had not any to receiue their stolen goods they would not steale at all. And therefore are the receiuers (in my simple opinion) rather the authors, and the principals (especially if [Page] they know before they receiue it, that it is sto­len) then they that commit the fact, and being the authors of the euill comitted, they are to be punished rather than the perpetrators of the fact it selfe. But for want of due punishment to be executed as well vppon the one as vppon the other, we sée gréeuous crimes, and flagici­ous facts without all remorse, or feare of God, daily committed. Good lawes there are, both for the repressing of these, and al other enormi­ties whatsoeuer, but the want of the due exe­cution thereof, is the cause why all wickednes and mischiefe dooth reigne and rage euerie where as it doth, God amend it if it be his good pleasure. And thus much briefly of the noble science of brokerie.

What hospitalitie is there kept, or reliefe for the poore?

Uery smal. For as for the poore te­nants and cōmons, they are not able to main­taine any hospitalitie, or to giue any thing to the poore, their rents are so raised, & their fines so inhansed, and yet notwithstanding they mi­nister (I am persuaded) more reléefe to the pore than the rich & welthie doe: more poore are fed at their dores than at the rich: more clothed at their hands than at the rich, & more lodged and harboured in their poore houses, than in the [Page] rich. But yet can I not denie but that the gen­tlemen, & others kéepe sumptuous houses, lusty ports, and great hospitalitie, but so as the pore hath the lest part therof, or rather iust nothing at all. If the poore come to their houses, their gates be shut against them, where they stan­ding frost and snow, haile, wind or raine what­soeuer, are forced to tary two houres, 3.4. yea sometimes halfe a day, and then shal they haue but the refuse, and the very scraps neither. And well if they haue any thing too, in stéed where­of they are sometimes sent to prison, clapt in irons, manicled, stocked, and what not. This is the almes that most men giue.

Then it séemeth that the poore are simplie prouided for?

They are so indéed, God amend it. And yet I am not so full of foolish pittie that I would haue all kind of beggers indifferently without any exception to be fed and nourished vpon the sweat of other mens browes.

Doe you make a difference of beg­gers then? Are there two sorts of them?

Yea, there are two sorts. One sort is of stout, strong, lustie, couragious, and valiant beggers, which are able to worke, and will not. These at no hand are not to be re­lieued (for qui non operatur non manducet, [Page] saith the apostle, He that will not worke, let him not eat) but are to be compelled to worke, and not to liue vpon other mens labours. For he that reléeueth these, maintaineth them in their idlenesse, and taketh awaie the childrens bred, and giueth it to dogs. These are as drone bées, that liue vpon the spoile of the poore bées that labour and toile to get their [...]itting with the sweat of their faces. If such fellowes as these will not worke, but liue vpon begging, let them be punished and imprisoned till they be content to worke. The other sort of beggers are they, that be old, aged, impotent, decrepite, or lame, sicke, sore, or diseased, these I would wish should be looked vnto: and these are they that euerie Christian man is bound in consci­ence to reléeue.

What order would you haue ob­serued in these respects?

The former sort of sturdie valiant beggers, which are able to worke and will not, I would wish them to be compelled to worke, or else not to haue any reléefe giuen them. And if they would not work, to punish them, if that will not serue, to hang them vp. But herein I would wish a prouis [...], that being content to worke, they might haue maisters prouided thē, with reasonable wages, for many would faine [Page] worke, and can get none, and than if they will not worke, to Tiburne wish them. The other sort of beggers which are either halt, lame, im­potent, decrepi [...]e, blind sicke, sore, infirme, and diseased, or aged and the like, I woulde wish that they should be maintained euerie one in his owne parish, at the costs and charges of the [...]ame. And if the parish be not able to maintain so manie, then that there should be collections & contributions made in other parishes to sup­plie their want, and [...]o the former poore people to be maintained therevpon. For wante of which godlie order, and constitution, there are infinite of the foresaid persons that die some in ditches, some in holes, some in caues, and dens, some in fields, some in one place, some in ano­ther, rather like dogs than christian people. For notwithstanding that they be neuer so impotent, blind, lame, sick, old, or aged, yet are they forced to walke the countries from place to place to séeke their releefe at euery mans doore, except they wil sterue or famish at home, such vnmercifulnes is in Dnalgne. Yea, in such troups doe they flocke, and in such swarmes, doe they flow, that you can lightlie go no way, but you shall see numbers of them at euerie doore, in euerie lane, and in euerie poore caue, and as though this were not extremity inough [Page] they driue them from citie to citie, from parish to parish, from towne to towne, from hundred to hundred, from shire to shire, and from coun­try to country like flocks of shéepe. Here they dare not tarrie for this Iustice, nor there for that Iustice, here for this man, nor there for that man, without a licence or a pasport, wher­as a man would thinke their old age, their hoare haires, their blindnesse, lamenesse, and other infirmities shoulde bee pasports good i­nough for them to go abrod withal▪ if they can­not get reléefe at home. But if the former order that euery parish should maintaine their poore were taken, then should they neither need to go abroad, nor otherwise want their daily reléefe.

Are there no hospitals, spittles, la [...]ar houses, almes houses, nor the like, for the re­léefe of these poore people?

Yes there are some such in cities, townes, and some other places, wherin manie poore are reléeued, but not the hundred part of those that want. For the supplie wherof would God there might be in euerie parish an almes house erected, that the poore (such as are poore indéed) might be maintained, helped▪ and relée­ued. For vntill the true poore indéed be better prouided for, let them neuer thinke to please God. Is it not great pity when a man can passe [Page] no waie almost neither citie nor country, but shall haue both halt, blind, lame, old aged, sicke, sore & diseased hanging vpon his sleue, and cra­uing of [...]eléefe▪ Whereas if the former order were established, then should none at al néed to go abroad, but al shuld haue sufficient at home. The reformed churches beyond seas, and euen the French, Duch, & Italian churches in Dnal­gne are worthie of great cōmendations herin, & shal rise vp the day of iudgment to our co­demnation except we repent & amend our vn­mercifulnesse towards the poore. These good churches folowing the counsel of the almighty who [...]iddeth that there be no begger amongst vs, suffer neuer a one of their countrymen, nor yet any other dweling in their parish to beg or aske almes without his parish, nor yet in his parish neither, but by mutual contribution and collectio [...]s maintaine them, & minister to their necessities in all things, Which thing GOD grant the churches of Dnalgne may once begin to practise amongst themselues, that God may be glorified, and the poore members of Christ Iesus reléeued and maintained.

Be there husbandmen there, & such others as manure and till the ground, for the further increase of fruits, to the maintenance of the commonwealth▪

There are of such indeed good store and as excellent men in that kinde of exercise, as any be vpon the earth. They know exactly I warrant you, the times and seasons of the yeere, when euerie kinde of graine is to be so­wed, and what ground is best for euerie kinde of corne. They are not ignorant also, howe to culture & dresse the same, and if it be barren what kind of dung is best to fatten the same a­gaine. They know the nature, the propertie, & qualitie of euerie soile, and what corne it will bring. They know also when the ground is to be tilled, when not, how long it will bring foorth good corne, how long not, when it ought to rest, when not, with all things else incident to the same.

I thinke they haue good farmes, and tenemēts, that are able to furnish their ground in this sort, for otherwise they were not able to kéepe their oxen, their horses, their seruants, and other necessaries, belonging thereto, haue they not so?

No truely haue they not. For some haue such fatte farmes, and tenements, as either will bring forth no corne at all (in a manner) or if it doe verie little, and that not without great cost bestowed vpon it. Other­some haue houses with no lands belonging to [Page] them at all, and yet notwithstanding shall pay a good round some for the same also. And no marueile, for landlords, and gentlemen take all the lands, and lyuelode wherevpon there poore tenants shoulde liue into their owne hands, and suffer not the poore husbandmen to haue so much ground as will finde them corne for the maintenance of their poore families, nor which is more, scarcely to keepe one cow, horse or sheepe vpon, for their continuall reléefe. Or if they haue any they shall pay tenne times so much as it is worth, to their vtter vndooing for euer. But if landlords would consider that the earth is the Lords, and all that is therein, and that it is theirs, but onely in title, interest, and propertie (hauing the souereigntie, or chieftie thereof) and the poores in vse and possession, and if they would remember that the poore ought to liue vpon the earth as well as they, than would they not vse such tirannie, such ex­actions, such pooling, and pilling and the like as they doe without all compassion.

There being such store of hus­bandmen, and the same so expert in their agri­culture as your words import they be, it must needes follow, that there is great plentie of corne, and all kinde of other graine, and the same verie good cheape, is it not so?

There is great store of corne, and all kind of graine, no nation vnder the sunne like vnto it, but as I told you before, thorowe the insatiable gréedines of a few couetous cor­morants, who for their owne priuate commo­ditie, transport ouer seas whole mountaines of corne, it is made sometimes very scarse. O­therwise there would be gret store at al times. And wheras you say it is good cheape, it is no­thing lesse, as euerie daies successe prooueth true.

How can that be, that there be­ing such store of corne, yet should be deare also.

I will tell you. It commeth to passe three manner of waies. First, for that landlords racke there rents so extreemely, and aduance their fines so vnreasonably, that the poore man is forced to sell euerie thing déere, otherwise he should not be able to pay his land lord his due, whereas if he had his fearme good cheape, he might afforde to sell good cheap. The second cause is (as I haue said) for that the same is carried and conueighed ouer Sea [...]. The third cause is, thorow a sorte of ingra­tors, or forestallers, who intercept euerie thing before it come at the market, or else being come to the market, and hauing mo­ney [Page] at will, buy vp either all, or the most part, and carieng it into their celles, and garners at home, keepe it till time of the yeere that corne is scarse, and so consequent­lie deere. And when there is want of it, then they sell it deere, and when there is plentye, then they make it deerer by buy­ing it vppe in whole heapes as they doe. Thus you sée by this meanes, these hel­lishe ingratours, and forestallers make corne and all thinges else deere, all times of the yeere, Nowe iudge you what a horrible abuse is this for one man to buy vppe all things, and that not for anie neede or want in himselfe, but to sell it againe, deerer then they bought it, thereby to inriche him­selfe with the impouerishing of many a thou­sande.

Is there not punishment for this horrible abuse, for me thinke great inconue­niences doe followe it?

There be great penalties, and forfaitures ordained, as well for the repres­singe of this, as of any other outragious a­buse, but they playe with this as with all other good lawes, they inuente quirckes▪ and quiddities, shiftes, and put offes ynough [Page] to blinde the eies of the magistrates, and to de­liuer themselues (trimly trimly) from the danger and penaltie of the lawe. For they will say that they buy but for the necessarie proui­sion of their owne families, and not to sell a­gaine. And then when they doe sell it againe, they will beare you in hande it was of their owne tillage. Or if this way will not serue the turne, then procure they another man to buy it with their owne mony vnder his owne name, and so to sell it againe when hee seeth tyme, but who hath the commoditie, iudge you. But if all these waies faile, then buie they it couertly, and sell it againe as couertly, and thus they buy and sell their owne soules for corruptible monie, which in the last day shall beare witnesse against them, and consume them: yea as Saint Iames saith: The monie which they haue vniustlie got with the polling and pilling of the poore, shall rise vp in iudge­ment against them, and the rust thereof shall eate and deuoure their flesh as it were a can­ker. But let these iollie felowes (as subtil and as politike as they would séeme to be) take héed vnto themselues and beware: for though they can blinde mens eies, and deceiue their iudgements, yet let them be sure, that they can not deceiue the iudgement of the Lord, but he [Page] that made the eies shall surely sée, and he who knoweth the secrets of all harts, shall one day declare the same to their perpetuall confusion except they repent.

What be these husbandmen, honest, plaine dealing, and simple persons, and such as in whom, there is no abuse, or else fraudulent, deceitfull, and craftie persons?

They are for the most part verie simple and plaine men in outward appéerance yea such as if you sawe them, and heard them talke, you would thinke they had no gall, or that there were nothing in them in the world. But if you looke into their dailie exercises, practises, and déeds, you shall find them as craf­tie and subtill in their kind, as the diuell is in his, if it be possible. For the simplest of them all, if he make a bargaine with another, he wil be sure to make it so as he himselfe may gaine by it. And it is well too, if the other though ne­uer so wise, circumspect, or prouident, be not vt­terly deceiued (or to speake in plainer termes cosoned at their hands) such subtiltie, such po­licie, and such craftie conueiance they practise vnder the garment of simplicitie. Yea truly it is growne to be almost their profession to de­ceiue, defraud, and beguile their brethren, inso­much as they count him a wise man, a worldly [Page] felow, and such a one as will liue in the world that can not deceiue, and beguile men in bar­gaining. This is there Columbina simplicitas, (Nay rather, Vulpina, et serpentina astutia) which Christ would haue al his childrē to prac­tise in all things all daies of their life. But so farre from this christian simplicitie are many, that their whole life (almost) is nothing else, than a continuall practise of fraud, and deceit, as for example. You shall haue some that sen­ding corne to the market to be sould, they will put good corne in the top or mouth of the bag, to seeme faire to the eie, and in the bottome of the sacke, very good also (that when it is powred forth of the same, it may yet seeme ex­ceeding good still, but in the middest shall be neuer a good corne, but such as is mustie sprou­ted, and naught. Whereof can be made neither good bread nor drinke, for mans bodie. I haue knowne othersome, that hauing a barren cow, and being desirons to put hir away haue ta­ken a calfe from another melch cowe, and so solde the former barren cowe with hir adul­terate calfe, for a melche cowe, whereas shee was nothing lesse. With infinite the lyke sleights, which for breuities sake I omit.

I perceiue then it is good for a man to be warie that deales with these simple [Page] fooles?

It were good so indeede, else he may chaunce to cough himselfe a dawe for his labour. For I tell you the foxe for all his crafte may go to schoole to these felowes, to learne the rudiments of deceit and craft. Such skilfull Doctors are they herein. If they sell you a cow, an oxe, a horse or a mare, they will set the price on him I warrant you, and with all will protest and take on woonder­fullie, that hee is but this olde, and that olde, this yoongue, and that yoongue. And which is woorst of all, though they knowe a hundred faultes by them, yet will they not reueale anye vnto him that buyeth the same, which is a playne, and a manifest deceite before the LORDE, and one daye shall be answeared for, I dare be their war­rante.

Would you haue euerie man to de­clare to the buyers the faultes and imperfecti­ons, which they knowe to be in those thinges that they sell, then shoulde he sell but a little?

Euery true christian ought to do so, or else besides that he doth not to others, as he would wish to be done to (for this is the chaine wherwith euery christiā is bound to another▪) he also breketh the cords of charity & commiteth [Page] most horrible cosonage, and wilful presumptu­ous deceit before God, which is a fault punish­able in the iustice of God, with eternall death, in the lake that burneth with fire and bryme­stone for euer. And seing we ought to doe to o­thers as we would wish to be done vnto vs, let y^e deceiuer aske of himself when he goeth about to deceiue, these questions. Would I my selfe be deceiued? Would I be coosoned? Would I be vndone and spoiled? Would I count him an honest man, or a good christian that would sup­plant me in bargaining? Oh no. No more ought I to doe to others, that which I would not should be done to my selfe. Besides this, consider that the apostle saith, The Lord is the reuenger of all such as deceiue their brethren in bargaining. If they would fall into this or the like consideration I doubt not, but fraude, deceit, lieng, dissimulation coosonage, & guile, would be abandoned and put to flight in shorte time which God grant.

Well, notwithstanding I cannot sée how we could liue without husbandmen anie maner of waie, could we?

No truly. Neither king, prince, earle, duke, lord, knight, esquire, high nor low, rich nor poore, nor yet any potentate, power or principalitie vpon the earth (how great a mo­narch [Page] soeuer) could liue or continue without the vse of husbandrie and husbandmen. And therefore they are not only to be beloued of vs, but also to be preferred and to be made much of amongst vs, without whose industrie and labour no man could liue long vpon the face of the earth. For this cause we read the vse of husbandry to be commended vnto vs in sundry places of holy scripture, and which is more the kingdome of heauen many times to be com­pared and assimiled to the husbandman for di­uers purposes and respects. And when Adam our first parent was expulsed paradise he was by God himselfe inioined to manure to dresse and till the ground, whereby we may see both the antiquitie, auncientie, and excellencie of husbandrie, euen from the verie beginning of all things. And therefore doubtles is it to be had in reuerence and estimation of all men. But hereof inough.

Be there any Chandlers there as be in other places?

Yea that there are inow I warrant you, and more than deale iustly in euerie re­spect.

What do they sell for the most part?

Almost all things, as namelie but­ter, chéese, fagots, pots, pannes, candles, and a [Page] thousand other trinkets besides.

What be the abuses which they com­mit I pray you?

Abuses quoth you? They dare not commit anie I trowe. But séeing you would so faine knowe, I will giue you an inkling of them. First they buy that butter, chéese, and o­ther things, which is naught, bicause they may haue it for a little monie, and then sell it for verie good, this manie a poore prentise and o­ther can tell to be true. Or if they buy that which is good, then they either sell it wonder­full déere, or else kéepe it till it be past the best, and yet vtter it for as much and more than it cost them. Besides this that they kéepe their butter & chéese till it be mustie and mould, yea till it smell that no man can eate it, they haue also their false waights & counterfet measures to deceiue the poore people withall. And not­withstanding that they buy sometimes 2. or 3. fagots for a penie, yet wil they not sel one be it neuer so litle, vnder a penie, gaining aboue the one halfe in the other. And as for the stuffe whereof they make their candles, I am asha­med to speake of it. For whereas they should make them of good liquor and swéet, they make them of all kind of kitchen stuffe, & other stink­ing baggage, so that they shal waste & consume [Page] away like vnto waxe against the fire, and yet shall neuer burne cléere, nor giue good light, but run ouer, and about the candlesticke too shamefully. And as for the wikes within thē, they are of hurds, rope ends, & such other good stuffe. Besides all this they haue sleights to make the liquor of the candles alwaies to re­maine soft, to the end it may waste & consume the faster, with legions of the like diuises, God be mercifull vnto vs.

What say you of the barbers, and trimmers of men, are they so neate, and so fine fellowes as they are said to be?

There are no finer fellowes vnder the sunne, nor experter in their noble science of barbing than they be. And therefore in the ful­nes of their ouerflowing knowledge (oh inge­nious heads, & worthie to be dignified with the diademe of follie and vain curiositie) they haue inuented such strange fashions and monstrous maners of cuttings, trimmings, shauings, and washings, that you would wonder to sée. They haue one maner of cut called the French cut, another the Spanish cut, one the Dutch cut, another the Italian, one the newe cut, ano­ther the old, one of the brauado fashion, ano­ther of the meane fashion. One a gentle­mans cut, another the common cut, one [Page] cut of the court, another of the country, wish infinite the like vanities, which I ouerpasse? They haue also other kinds of cuts innumera­ble, and therefore when you come to be trimed they will aske you whether you will be cut to looke terrible to your enimie, or amiable to your fréend, grime & sterne in countenance, or pleasant & demure (for they haue diuers kinds of cuts, for all these purposes or else they lie.) Then when they haue done al their feats, it is a world to consider, how their mowcha [...]owes must be preserued and laid out, from one cheke to another, yea, almost from one eare to ano­ther, and turned vp like two hornes towards the forehead. Besides that, when they come to the cutting of the haire, what snipping & snap­ping of the [...]ycers is there, what tricking, and triming, what rubbing what scratching, what combing and clawing, what trickling & toy­ing, and al to tawe out mony you may be sure. And when they come to washing, oh how gin­gerly they behaue themselues therein. For then shall your mouth be bossed with the la­ther, or fome that riseth of the balles (for they haue their swéete balles wherewith all they vse to washe) your eyes closed must be anoin­ted therewith also. Then snap go the fingers, ful brauely god wot. Thus this tragedy ended [Page] comes me warme clothes to wipe and dry him withall, next the eares must be picked, and clo­sed togither againe artificially forsooth. The haire of the nostrils cut away, and euery thing done in order comely to behold. The last action in this tragedie is the paiment of monie. And least these cunning barbers might séeme vn­conscionable in asking much for their paines, they are of such a shamefast modestie, as they will aske nothing at all, but standing to the curtesie and liberalitie of the giuer, they will receiue all that comes how much soeuer it be, not giuing anie againe I warrant you: for take a barber with that fault, and strike off his head. No, no, such fellowes are Rarae aues in terris, nigrisque similimi cygnis, Rare birds vp­on the earth, and as geason as blacke swans. You shall haue also your orient perfumes for your nose, your fragrant waters for your face, wherewith you shall bee all to besprinkled: your musicke againe, and pleasant harmonie shall sound in your eares, and all to tickle the same with vaine delight. And in the end your cloke shall be brushed, and God be with you Gentleman.

All these curious conceits in my iudgement are rather done for to allure and prouoke the minds of men to be bountifull and [Page] liberall towards them, than for any good else, which they bring either to the bodie or health of man?

True it is that you say, and there­fore you must néedes thinke they are maisters of their science that can inuent al these knacks to get money withall. But yet I must néeds say (these nisities set apart) barbers are ve­rie necessarie, for otherwise men should grow verie ougglisom and deformed, and their haire would in processe of time ouergrowe their fa­ces, rather like monsters, than comlie sober christians. And if it be said that any man may cut off the haire one of another, I answer, they may so, but yet not in such comelie, and decent maner as these barbers exercised therein can doe, and besides they knowe that a decorum in euerie thing is to be obserued. And therfore I cannot but maruell at the beastlinesse of some ruffians (for they are no sober christians) that will haue their haire to growe ouer their fa­ces like monsters, and sauage people, nay ra­ther like mad men than otherwise, hanging downe ouer their shoulders, as womens haire doth: which indéed is an ornament to them, be­ing giuen them as a signe of subiection, but in man, it is a shame and reproch as the Apostle prooueth. And thus much of barbers, and their [Page] science.

Haue you surgeans, and physicians there, as in other places, and are they skilfull and expert in their mysterie, and not onelie skilfull, but also conscionable in their dea­lings, as well toward the poore as toward the rich?

There are both surgeans and physicians good store. And as they be ma­nie, so are they verie vnconscionable in their dooinges, for as for both the one and the other so farre from godlinesse and good consci­ence in all things are they, as if a poore man that hath not monie to giue them at their pleasure, stande in néed of their helpe, they will either not come at him, or if they doe, they will so handle him, as it were better for him to be hanged than to sustaine the paines, that they will put him to. But for the most part, neither of them both will come at him, but rather contemne him, and reiect him as a thing of naught, yea as much will they doe for the diuell him­selfe, as for a poore man, if hee haue not money. And againe as long as moneye runneth, they will applye gentle and easie potions, medicines, and salues, bearing their patient in hand that he shall recouer without [Page] all doubt, with what disease maladie, or sore soeuer he be infected, wheras in truth they can doe nothing lesse. But Deficiente pecunia. Monie wanting, they applie bitter potions, nipping medicines, gnawing corrosiues, and pinching plaistures to gréeue their patient withal, therby to straine out what liquor of life (that is what monie or goods) they are able to giue. And thus they abuse their gifts to the dis­honor of God, the hurt of their felow brethren, and their owne damnation except they repent.

Are surgeans and phisitians then necessarie in a common wealth, as you seeme to inferre?

Salomon saith the Phisition (by the which worde he vnderstandeth both the phisition and the surgean, bicause the one is coosin germaine to the other) is to be honored for necessitie. And if for necessitie then must it néedes follow, that the same is most necessa­rie in a common wealth. But as the good, lear­ued, and discréet phisitions and surgeons, are necessarie, and may doe much good, so the vn­learned, and naughtie (as the world is to full of them) may and doe much hurt dailie as experi­ence teacheth.

You say truth. But are all indiffe­rently suffered to practise the same noble mi­steries [Page] of phisicke and surgerie, without any choyse or exception at all?

There is to great libertie permit­ted herein. For now a daies euerie man tagge, and ragge, of what insufficiencie soeuer, is suf­fered to exercise the misterie of phisick, and sur­gerie, and to minister both the one, and the o­ther, to the diseased, and infirmed persons, but to their woe you may be sure. Yea, you shall haue some that know not a letter of the booke (so farre are they from being learned, or skil [...]ul in the toongs, as they ought to be, that shoulde practise these misteries) both men and women. yoong and old, that presuming vpon experience forsooth (for that is their greatest skill) will arrogate great knowledge to themselues, and more then the learnedst doctor vpon the earth will doe. And yet notwithstanding can doe in manner nothing at all. But if they chance at any time to doe any good (as forte luscus capiat leporem somtime by chance a blind man may catch a hare) it is by meere chance, and not by any knowledge of theirs. And yet shall this ex­ploit of theirs be sounded foorth with a trum­pet, which indeede may hardly be blowne vp, with an oten pip [...] [...]or any praise it deserueth. This bringeth the laudable sciences of phisick and surgerie, into hatred, obloquy, & contempt, [Page] maketh it of no estimation in the world, and vt­terly discrediteth it amonst men. For when as any sick, infirmed, or diseased, either miscarieth vnder the hands of his phisition, or surgean, or else when the medicine, or salue worketh not his effect then fall they to accuse the science it selfe, and to reproch it altogither, whereas in truth the whole blame consisteth in the igno­rance of the practicioner himselfe. Great pitie it is therefore, that there is such libertie in per­mitting euery one that lust to prophane and to abuse these venerable sciences of phisicke and surgerie as they doe. For euery man though he know not the first principles, grounds or rudi­ments of his science, y^e lineaments, dimensions, or compositions of mans body, the poores, arte­ries, temperament, or constitution, no nor yet so much as the naturall complexion, qualitie, or disposition of the same, will yet notwithstand­ing take vpon him the habite, the title, y^• name, and profession of a phisition, or surgean. This we see verified in a sort of vagarants, who run stragling (I wil not saie roging) ouer the coun­tries, and beare men in hand of gret knowledg when as there is nothing lesse in them. By which kind of theft, (for this coosoning shift is no better) they rake in great somes of mony, which when they haue got, they leaue their [Page] cures in the dust I warrant you, and betake them to their héeles as to their best refuge. And thus be the noble sciences of phisicke, and sur­gerie vtterly reproched, the world deluded, and manie a good man and woman brought to their endes, before their time.

If phisicke be good, would you not haue euery man to practise it that will, with­out restraint?

Phisicke is good, and yet would I not haue euerie ignorant doult that knoweth not the vse, nor benefit thereof to practise the same. For that maketh it to take so little effect, and so smally to be estéemed of as it it is now a daies (for reformation wherof) I would wish that euery ignorant doult, & especially women that haue as much knowledg in phisick or sur­gery as hath Iackeanapes, being but smatte­rers in the same noble sciences (nor yet al that) should be restrained from the publicke vse ther­of, yet not from priuate exercise thereof either for their owne singuler benefit, or any other of their fréends (prouided that they do it gratis) not making an occupation of it, but rather for desire to helpe then for lucre of gaine. Than woulde I wyshe that the others who shoulde exercise the vse of Phisicke and Surgerie shoulde first bee Graduates in [Page] either of the vniuersities, and being graduates yet not to be admitted therefore, but first to be tried and examined as well for their know­ledge, discresion, and sufficiencie in their art, profession and calling, as also for their godli­nes, christian zeale, pure religion, compassion, and loue to their brethren, and being found suf­ficient for the foresaid respects, to be admitted and licensed, vnder hand and seale authentike by those that be of authoritie. And if he abuse himselfe or his facultie, then out with him, let him be Officiperda, Iacke out of office, make him a Quondam, and let him go to plow and cart, rather than to robbe the poore (as manie of them doe) yea to murther and kil them with­out reprehension. And as I would wish none but godlie, learned, and such as feare God to be admitted to the exercise and practise hereof, so I would wish, that either they might be allo­wed anual stipends, for their better succouring of the poore diseased, or else might be constrai­ned to take lesse of their poore patients than they doe. For now they ruffle it out in silckes, and veluets, with their men attending vpon them, whereas many a poore man (GOD wot) smarteth for it. Yea, so vnreasonable, and so vnconcionable are they, as some of them wil not set one foot out of his owne doores, without [Page] twentie shillings, fortie shillings, thrée pound, twentie nobles, ten pound, twentie pound, and some more some lesse. And hauing this impor­table fée, If they minister any thing to the par­tie diseased, than besides, must they haue twen­ty shillings, for that that stands them not in twentie pins, fortie shillings, twentie nobles, for that that cost them not twentie pence, & so foreward. This is a great wickednes, God be mercifull vnto vs, and such as the Lord will one day reuenge, if they preuent not his iudge­ments by spéedy repentance. Besids these abu­ses, there are othersome, that if they owe euill will to any, man or woman being sicke, or if they hope for any preferment by their deaths, wil not make any conscience of it, to giue them such medicines, such potions, and drinkes, as will soone make a hand of them, and this shall be done inuisible in a clowde. Under the pre­tence of phisicke forsooth, and if he die, why it was not the medicine that killed him (no it were Blasphemia in sanctos ruminare, blasphe­mie to thinke it of these holie fathers) but it was death that cruell tyger that spareth none. And to such corruption are they grown that for mony I am persuaded they can make away with any whom they haue accesse vnto. There­fore I aduise euery man to be careful to whom [Page] he committeth the cure of his bodie. They are likewise in league with the apothecaries in whome there are great abuses also, aswell in compounding, and mixing of their elements, & simples togither, as also in selling chalke for cheese, one thing for another, & the like, so as it is hard to get any thing of them that is right pure and good of it selfe, but druggie baggage, and such counterfait stuffe as is starke naught. But of them inough. Let vs speake a worde or two of a certeine kinde of curious people, and vaineglorious, called astronomers, and astrolo­gers, the corruptions and abuses of whom are inexplicable. This done we will make a final ende at this time of speaking any further con­serning the abuses, corruptions, and imperfec­tions, of the temporaltie till occasion of more matter her ca [...]ter shall be offered.

These names of astronomers, astro­logers, prognosticators, and the like are so vn­quoth and strange to my eares, that I knowe not what to make of them. Wherefore I pray you shewe me as néere as you can the meaning of them and what kinde of marchants the pro­fessors thereof be?

The astronomers, astrologers, prog­nosticators (and all others of the same societie, and brotherhoode, by what name or title soe­uer [Page] they be called) are a certeine kinde of curi­ous phantasticall and vaineglorious fellowes, who secreta dei temere remantes, Searching the secrets of God rashlie, which he would haue kept close from vs, and onely knowne to him­selfe, take vpon them & that vpon these grounds (forsooth) namely the obseruations of times & seasons, the aspects and coniunctions of the signes and planets, with their occurrents, to presage, to diuine, and prognosticate whai shall come or happen afterwards, as though they sate in Gods lap, knew his secrets, & had the world and the disposement therof in their own hands. It is an olde saieng, and verie true. Quae supra nos, nihil ad nos, Those things that are aboue our reach, conserne vs not, and therefore we ought not to enter into the bowels & secrets of the Lord (for as the wise man saith Qui scruta­tur abscondita dei, obruetu [...] gloria eius, hee that searcheth out the hidden things of GOD, shall bee ouerwhelmed with the glorye of the same, but to content our selues with so much as hee hath reuealed vnto vs in his sacred worde, committing the euent, the successe, and disposement of all thinges else to his sacrede Maiestie, the GOD of all glorie. For to them that goe about, and labour so buselye by speculations, by astronomie, [Page] astrologie, and the like curious arts to iudge of things to come, and thinke they can tell all things by the same (but Dum parturiunt mon­tes nascetur ridiculus mus, whilst the moūtains doe trauell a séely mouse will be brought forth) Christ our sauiour saith, Non est vestrum nosse tempora, & momenta temporum, quae ipse pater in sua ipsius constituit potestate, It is not for you to knowe the times and seasons, which the Lord God hath reserued to himselfe. And how much our sauiour Christ disliketh this vaine curiositie, of astronomicall, & astro­logicall speculations, we may gather by that vehement reprehension, or commination in the 16. of Matthew, thundred out against the people of the Iewes, who were as it séemeth too much addicted to the same. Where he sharp­ly rebuketh them, and calleth them dissem­bling hypocrites, in that they obserued and marked with such serious attention and dili­gence, the elemental signes & tokens in the fir­mament, being in the meane time, ignorant of greater things, namely of the signes and to­kens of the sonne of GOD Christ Iesus, the true Messias, and sauiour of the world.

Uppon what grounds, certeinties, rules, and principles doth this curious science consist?

It standeth vpon nothing else, but méere coniectures, supposals, likelihods, ghes­ses, probabilities, obseruations of times and seasons, coniunctions of signes, starres, and planets, with their aspects and occurrents, and the like, & not vpon anie certeine ground, knowledge, or truth, either of the word of God. or of natural reason. But to argue the vntruth and the vncerteintie of this foolish curious sci­ence, we néed not to go farre for examples and arguments. For the contrariety that euer hath béene in all ages amongst the verie doctors and maisters themselues, but most specially of late doth approoue the same to be most fantasticall, curious, vaine, vncerten, and méere prophane. For there being a maruellous strange coniun­ction (as they said) of two superiour planets. So manie as writ of the same, neither iumped togither in one truth, nor yet agréed togither either of the day, houre, or moneth, when it should be: but in al things shewed themselues like themselues, that is plaine contradictorie one to another. Insomuch as they writ in de­fence of their errors, and confutation of the contrarie, one against another shamefully to behold. By which more than presumptuous audacitie, and rash boldnesse of these, they brought the world into a woonderfull perplexi­tie [Page] and cease, expecting either a woonderfull alteration of states and kingdomes (as these foolish starre tooters promised) or else a finall consummation, and ouerthrowe of all things. Or if not so, yet the strangest things should happen, that euer were heard or séene since the beginning of the world. Whereas God be than­ked at the verie houre, and moment when (as some of them set downe) these woonders and portents should haue happened, there was no alteration nor change of any thing séene or heard of, the element being as faire, as bright, as calme, and as pleasant, and euerie thing as silent, and in as perfect order and forme, as euer they were since the beginning of the world. By all which appéereth the vanitie, and vncerteintie of their curious science. I woon­der where these fellowes sate, whether vppon the earth, or in the firmament of heauen when they sawe these coniunctions. Or with what eies they could sée that, that no man else could see. But peraduenture they haue Argus eies, and can see all things, euen those things that be not. I maruell whether they haue dwelt in the region of the aire, and who told them the names, the scituation, the houses, aspects, and locall places of the signes and planets, of the sunne, moone, and starres, with the number [Page] thereof also, which indeed are innumerable. I woonder what spirite tolde them which pla­nets were higher than other, and which lower than other, which be good, and which be euill, which be moist, and which bee drie, which bee colde, and which be hote, which be gentle and affable, and which bee cruell and terrible, which giue good fortune, and which giue e­uill, which be good to▪ take iourneies in hand, or to attempt any great thing, and which bee naught, which bee good for a man to take a wise in, that she may be amiable, and gentle, and which be contrarie, which be dangerous to take diseases in, or to fall sicke, and which bee not, with infinite the like fooleries, which I ouerpasse. Now from whence they haue learned these things I cannot tell, but certeine I am, that out of the booke of GOD, they neuer fetched them, the same being in eue­rie point contrarie vnto them, and reproo­uing, yea condemning to hell their vaine cu­rious searching of Gods secrets, and the suc­cesse of things by such fallible and vncerteine accidents.

Me thinke this is the next way to withdrawe men from GOD the Crea­tor, to depende and hang vpon creatures, is it not?

It is the onely waie. For who hea­ring that the creatures as the sun, the moone, the starres, the signes & planets, doe giue both good things and euil, blessing and cursing, good successe, and euill successe, yea, life and death, at their pleasure (as these brainesick fooles hold they doe) and that they rule, gouerne, and dis­pose al things whatsoeuer, yea both the bodies & soules of man (for so some shame not to say) who hearing this I say, would not fall from God, and worship the creatures, that giue such blessings vnto man? What can be a néerer way to withdrawe the people not onelie from God, but also to hale them to idolatrie, and wholy to depend vpon creatures as the hea­then do to their eternall damnation for euer. But say they, though we giue authoritie, great power, great rule and gouernement to the treatures, yet we giue vnto God the chéefest stroke and the chéefest rule in all things, all o­ther creatures being but the instrumentall, or secundarie causes, or (that I may speake plain­lie) as it were his deputies, substitutes, or in­strumentes whereby he ruleth and worketh all things. Is this any thing else, than to saie with certeine heretikes, that though God made all things, yet he ruleth them not, nor hath no care ouer them, but hath committed the rule [Page] and gouernement of them to his creatures. Then which what blasphemie can be greater? is not this a flatte deniall of the prouidence of God, which scripture so much setteth forth, and commendeth vnto vs? Shall we thinke that God made all things, and now as one wearie of his worke, committeth the gouernmente of them to other creatures? Saith not our Sauior Christ Pater et ego operamur, my father work­eth, and I worke? Meaning thereby that as he wrought in creating of all things, so he work­eth still in ruling them by his power, gouerne­ing them by his wisdome, and preseruing them by hys prouidence, and will do to the end of the world. But when they haue proued that he hath committed the rule and gouernement of his creatures, to his creatures, then I will saye as they say. In the meane time I say & holde that it derogateth greatly from the glorie and ma­iestie of God, to saye or affirme that creatures haue the gouernement of all things committed vnto them. For if there should be many kings, princes and rulers in any one realme or coun­try, must not the dominion and rule of the chief prince or regent be lesser, than if he ruled, and gouerned alone? Woe were vs, if wee were at the rule and gouernement of creatures, but blessed be our God, who as he knoweth our [Page] frailtie (hauing therefore cōpassion of our infir­mities) so he ruleth and gouerneth all things, whether in heauen, earth, hell, or else whersoe­uer according to the good pleasure of his will. In the 1. and 2. chapters of Genesis, besides in­finit the like places of holie scriptures, we read that the sun, the moone, the stars, with all crea­tures else were created & made for the vse and cōmoditie of man, being made subiect to him, & he constitute lord ouer them. & yet notwith­standing are they becom now his lords, and he their subiect, vassall, and bondslaue? This is preposterous geare, when Gods ordinance is turned topsie turuie, vpside downe. It is time these phantasticall fellowes were looked to in time, that wil go about to disthronize the mightie God Iehoua of his regall throne of maie­stie and glorie, making an Officiperda of him, a iacke out of office, & to pul him (as it were) E caelis, Out of the heauens, downe to the earth, giuing him no power nor authoritie at all.

Haue the signes and planets then no power nor authoritie at all vpon things on the earth?

Yes they haue their power, their operation, force, strength and effect in those things whereto GOD hath created them, as namely in the growing, increasing, cherishing, fostering, renewing, comforting & reuiuing of [Page] all natural things, And also they haue their in­fluence & operation in mans bodie, for letting of bloud, receiuing of purgatiōs, & the like. But to say that they work these effects of their own proper force & strength, or that they rule or dis­pose the spirits & soules of man, is vtterly false & at no hand true. And yet notwithstanding is far infatuat are these busie heded astronomers, & curious serching astrologers, that they attri­bute euery part of mans body to one particular signe & planet, affirming that part of the bodie to be ruled by that signe, or planet. And there­fore to Aries they haue assigned the gouerne­ment of the head & face. To Tau. the necke and throte. To Gem. the shoulders, the armes & the hands? To Leo the hart and back. To Can. the brest, stomake, & lungs. To Lib. the raines and loines. To Uir. the guts & bellie. To Scor. the prime parts & bladder. To Sag. the thighes. To Cape. the knées. To Aqu. the legs. To Pisc. the féet. And thus haue they & doe beare the world in hand that the whole bodie of man both In­terne & externe, within & without, is ruled and gouerned by the xij. signes, by starres, and pla­nets & not by God only. For the cōfirmation of which fained vntruth, they pretend the xij. mo­neths in the yere to be ruled & gouerned by the xi [...]. signes in the element, and the seuen daies in the wéeke to be ruled by the seuen planets [Page] also. Besides this they haue their particular houres, times, and seasons, wherein they chief­ly worke their effects, and haue greatest strength. So that by their reasons, no moneth in the yere, nor day in the weeke, nor no houre in the day nor night, but it is ruled and gouer­ned by the influence and constellation of the starres and planets, and nothing is effected or brought to passe, but what they will, and in­tend.

Are the signes and planets liuing creatures and reasonable, or insensible crea­tures, and things without life?

They are no liuing or reasonable creatures, it is without all controuersie, but meerely insensible, and without life. And be­ing without life and reason, how is it possible that they should bring life or death (as these fe­lowes hold) sicknesse or health, prosperitie or aduersitie, heate or cold, faire weather or foule, beautie or deformitie, long life or short, or any thing else? And if they be not able to giue these things, how much lesse able are they then to gouerne, rule, and dispose all thinge in hea­uen, earth, the aire, or else whersoeuer, so ouer­throwe monarchies, kingdoms, nations, coun­tries, and people, and finally to work althings after their owne desire and will? Will they [Page] haue dumbe and vnreasonable creatures to rule the reasonable? If that were true, why should God be praised either for his mercie, or feared for his iustice and iudgement, and not rather the planets, signes, and starres; which worke all in all in all creatures? If blessing come by the influence of starres and planets, then let men praise them and not God for the same. And if curses proceed from the starres, let them be feared for them. Briefly if life and death, and all things else come by the force of the elementall creatures, and celestiall bo­dies, then let them be honoured with diuine worship. If these effects issued from creatures. then why should the homicide, the murtherer, adulterer, or wicked person be punished, wher­as he might say, it was not I, it was Planeta­rum iniuria, The force of the planets that com­pelled me to sinne? Or why should the godlie man be praised for dooing well, whereas he is inforced thereto, by the starres and planets? In Summa, why should not planets and scarces be adored and worshipped as gods, if they coulde worke these effects? They that attribute thus much to the starres, not onelie rob the maiestie of God of his honour, but also strenhthen the hands of the heathen, pagans, infidels, and ido­latrous people, to perseuere in their cursed ido­latie [Page] still. Nay do they not rather shake hands with them, that as they worship the sonne, the moone, the starres, fire, water, and other crea­tures, for their God, so doe these worship the same, though not for their chiefe Gods, yet for their second gods, whereby they commit most filthie idolatrie and are giltie of most hainous transgression. Indeede I confesse they haue effects and operations, but yet are they not the efficent causes of any thing either good or bad. Otherwise than thus, that it pleaseth the ma­iestie of God to worke by them, as by his in­struments whatsoeuer is his good wyll and pleasure, and not after any other sort.

I haue heard of some of these astro­nomers that would take vpon them to tell a mans fortune, onely by their constellation for­sooth is it possible suppose you?

No at no hand. For if it were so, that all things were and man himselfe gouer­ned, and ruled by the stars alone (as who is so forsaken of God to beleeue it?) And that they knew the minds, the purposes, the intents, the inclination, the disposition & qualities of euery starre, then might it be (peraduenture) true, that they might tell the fortune, and desteny of any man▪ But otherwise they can tel as much as a horse, I would faine learne of these starre [Page] gaisers, who teach that man is drawne to good or euill by the constellations, and influence of stars, whether all the people that were euer borne since the beginning of the world, or shal be borne to the ende of the same, were al borne vnder one planet or star? For they had all one fortune, all sinned in Adam, & all were in the iustice of God condemned to euerlasting fire. I would know also whether all the Sodomits and Gomorreans being consumed with fire, & brimstone from heauen were borne all vnder one starre or planet? For they had all one de­stinie, and all one end. Whether all the whole world in the daies of Noah, was borne vnder one, and the same star, or planet, for they had all one destenie, being ouerwhelmed with an vniuersall deluge. Whether the whole host of Core, Dathan, and Abiram, were borne all vn­der one star, or planet, who had al one iudgmēt one destinie, and one kind of death. Whether all the host of Pharao were borne vnder one, and the same starre, and planet, who all sustai­ned one kinde of death, and had all one desti­nie. Whether Esau, and Jacob were not borne both in a moment, and both at one birth, and yet had they contrarie natures, qualities, dis­positions and ends. Finally I would learne of them, whither none that euer liued since the [Page] first beginninning of the worlde, nor any that shall be borne to the end of the same, hath not, or may not be borne in the same houre, and vn­der the same planet, & constellation, that Christ Iesus was borne in. If they say there haue not beene any borne in the same houre that Christ Iesus was borne in, common reason, and daily experience would disprooue them, for there is not one minute of an houre wherein there are not infinite children borne into the world. And if they say that there are that ha [...]e beene borne in the same houre, and vnder the same starre, and planet, than must it needes follow (if man should necessarily be ruled, gouerned, disposed & affected, according to the naturall dispositi­on, and inclination of the planets & stars) that he that hath bin is or shall be, borne in the same howre, and vnder the same planet or star that Christ Iesus was borne vnder, should bee as good & as perfect in euery respect, as Christ Ie­sus himselfe, and so should we haue had manie christs before this time. But God blesse all his children from once thinking of any such impie­tie, and blasphemie. By all which reasons and arguments it apeareth manifestly that man is nothing lesse, than ruled, gouerned, or destined, after the inclinatiō, or influence of stars or pla­nets, but onely by the liuing God, who doeth [Page] whatsoeuer pleaseth him in heauen & in earth. This being so, twise vnhappy be those parents that thinke any moneth, day or houre infortu­nate for their children to be borne in, or that some be more fortunate and happie than other­some. And thrise cursed be those wicked deuils, that taught them those lessons. What? Doe they thinke that the Lorde is a sleepe those houres, or being wake hath no power to rule? Hath he not made all things pure and good? Then cannot the good creatures of God make vs euil, or incline vs to sinne. But it is the ma­lice of the deuill, the corruption of our nature, and the wickednes of our owne harts, that dra­weth vs to euill, and so to shamefull destinies, and infamous ends, and not the starres, or pla­nets. Whereof if we were truely perswaded, we wold leaue of when we come to any sham­full end, to saie? Oh, I was borne to it, it was my destonie, and I cannot tell what: whereas in truth we were borne to no such ends. But rather to glorifie our heauenly father by inte­gritie of life & godlines of conuersation, whilst we liue vpon the face of the earth. Certein it is that God by his prouidence, & prescience, doth foresee that such a man through his wickednes shall come to such an ende, yet did not the Lord foreordeine, or foreappoint him to the same, [Page] but rather dehorteth him from comitting that wickednes, which may purchase such an end. Wherefore to conclude. Seing it is sinne that bringeth man and woman to shamefull ends, and neither fate, destonie, birthstar, signe, or planet, constellation, nor any thing else what­soeuer, let euerie one endeuour himselfe to serue his GOD truelie, in singlenesse, and purenesse of heart, and himselfe to liue well and vprightlie. Walking in the lawes, and commandements of the Lord, and I warrant him for euer comming to anie euill end or de­stinie. That God whom he hath serued, will keepe him as he kept Sidrach, Misaac, and A­bednago, from the rage of the fire, Susanna frō the stake, Daniel, from y^e chawes of the gréedie lions, & manie others that serued him in feare.

I haue head some that woulde take vpon them to tell a man whither he shoulde be poore or rich, a seruant, or a lord, a theefe or a true man, cruell or gentle, and what kinde of trades he should haue prosperous successe in, how should they doe this?

I will tell you how they pretende to doe it. There are (as they saye) certeine signes in the element (but yet I maruell what Apollo tolde them so, when they were there, and sawe them, or how they knew the shape, [Page] and prooortion of them) as Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Uirgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricornus, and Pisces, with their planets, and aspects, as Sol, Luna, Mars Mercurie, Iupiter, Uenus, and Saturne. Now say they, he that is borne vnder Aries, (which is a signe in the Nusquam region, Like to a ramme, or sheepe vpon earth) shall be a riche man and too too wealthie. And whie so? Marke their droonken reason. Forsooth because the rame is a fruitfull beast vpon earth, and yeld­eth to his master two or three fleeces a yeere. Againe he that is borne vnder Taurus (which is a signe (say these liers) in the element like vnto a bull, vpon earth) now si [...] he that is born vnder him, shall be pore, & a bondslaue all his daies. And why so? Mary say they bicause the bull on earth is a beast vsed to the yoke, and to much slauerie & drudgery. He that is borne vn­der Leo, (which is a signe quoth these iuglers like to a lion) shal be strong, couragious & fea­red, of al men, & shalbe lord & ruler ouer many. And why so? Bicause y^e lion is a strong & migh­tie beast, & is lord & king ouer all other beasts. He that is borne vnder Scorpio, shalbe a mur­therer, a robber, a theefe, and a wicked per­son. Why so? Forsooth bicause the Scorpion, is a serpent full of poyson, & malice vpon earth. [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] He that is borne vnder Gemini shall be rich, and haue manie children, bicause Gemini is a signe of two twinnes. He that is borne vnder Uirgo shall be beloued of women, shall be ami­able, faire, gentle, and I cannot tell what, bi­cause maids are so affected. He that is borne vnder Cancer, shall be crabbed and angrie, bi­cause the crab fish is so inclined. Hee that is borne vnder Libra, shall be fortunate in mer­chandize, in waights and measures, bicause Libra is a signe of a paire of ballance. He that is borne vnder Sagittarius, shal be a good shoo­ter, bicause Sagittarius is a signe like to a shooter. He that is borne vnder Capricornus shall be a slouenly, ill fauoured, and vncleane fellowe, bicause the gote is a beast filthie stin­king, and vncleane. He that is borne vnder A­quarius and Pisces shall be fortunate by wa­ter, bicause watermen haunt the waters, and fishes swim in the same. These be cupstantiall reasons, and well seasoned arguments, and as strong to prooue their purpose, as a castell of paper to resist the enimie. Thus you may sée they haue no other reasons, than to heape one lie vpon another. As first that these signes and planets in the heauens are like to earthly cre­atures, then that their natures, and qualities are knowne by the natures and qualities of [Page] earthly creatures. Iesu God what cunning fe­lowes are these, that can knowe the nature of heauenly bodies, and celestiall creatures, by these terrestriall bodies, and earthly crea­tures? These are profound fellowes indéed, and by all likelihood, haue dwelt long in the clouds that are so perfect in euery thing there. and can iudge of future accidents with such singular dexteritie. By this time I thinke they are ashamed of their profession, therefore I néed to say no more of them, till further oc­casion be offered, beséeching the Lorde God to giue them grace to search for the truth of the worde of God, letting all such curious sear­chings of Gods secrets alone to God, who only knoweth all secrets whatsoeuer.

If you condemne astronomie, and astrologie altogither, as you séeme to doe, then it followeth that you condemne prognostica­tors, and such as make almanacks for euerie yéere, doe you so?

I neither condemne astronomie nor astrologie, nor yet the makers of prognosti­cations, or almanacks for the yéere. But I condemne the abuse in them both, and wish they were reduced to the same perfe [...]tion that they ought, and to be vsed to the same endes and purposes which they were ordeined for. [Page] The sunne, the moone, the starres, and the cele­stiall bodies whatsoeuer, created by the Lord not onelie to fructifie and increase the earth by their influence, but also to shine and giue light to man in this life, and to diuide the light from darknesse, the day from the night, winter from sommer, and to distinguish one season and time from another. Now how much may make or conduce to the knowledge hereof, so much I doubt not is verie tollerable, and may be vsed. But when we go about to enter into Gods se­crets, and to diuine of things to come, by con­iectures, and gesses, then make we the same wicked, and vnlawfull. Therefore prognosti­cators are herein much to be blamed, for that they take vpon them to foreshew what things shall be plentie, and what scarse, what déere, what good cheape. When shalbe faire weather, when foule, and the like, whereas indéed the knowledge of these things are hid in the se­crets of GOD, and are beyond their reach, therefore ought they not to meddle with them. But if they would kéepe them within their cō ­passe, as namely to shew the times and seasons of the yere, festiuals, vigils, to distinguish win­ter from sommner, spring from haruest, the change of the mooue, the fall of euerie day, the e [...]clipses, epacts, dominical letter, golden num­ber, [Page] circle of the sunne, leape yéere, and other the like necessarie points, then were their pro­fession laudable, and greatly for the commodi­tie of the commonwealth. And thus much with their patience be it spoken briefly hereof.

HAuing now spoken sufficiently of the corruptions and abuses of the temporaltie, if I might be so bold, I would request you some­what to say concerning the cor­ruptions and abuses of the spi­ritualtie, or (as some call it) of the ecclesiastical hierarchie. For I am fully persuaded that the one being so corrupt, the other can hardly bee without blemish.

I am verie loth to enter into that fielde, the view whereof offereth such store of matter to intreat of, as if I shoulde enter the same, I shoulde rather not knowe where to end, then where to begin. Besides, you knowe the olde prouerbe, Non bonum est ludere cum sanctis, It is not good to meddle with these holie ones, for feare of thunderbolts, to insue. But for that he is not onely a false prophet, and a traitor to the truth, that teacheth false doctrine, but as well he that knoweth the truth, and either for feare of death, or desire of life, wil not expresse the same to the world. And for that, not onely the author of any euill or mischiefe is giltie of offence before God. But also he that might vy discouerie therof preuent the same, and yet either will not, or for feare of death dares not. And for that as the olde pro­uerbe saith Qui [...]acet consentire videtur, he that concealeth the truth, seemeth to consent to er­rors, for these and the like causes, I will laye downe vnto you some such corruptions and a­buses, as seeme to be inormous, and stande in neede of reformation, omitting in the meane time to speake perticularly of all (for that they be innumerable) vntill I see how these fewe will be brouked of them. For it is a point of good physicke you knowe, to sée how the former [Page] meate receiued into the stomacke, will be di­gested, and concocted, before we receiue anye more into the same.

You say very well. Giue me leaue then (by your patience) to aske you such questi­ons, as I thinke conuenient for my further in­struction, that by your good means I knowing the truth, may praise God in you, and also haue iust occasion to giue you thanks for the same.

Aske what you thinke good in Gods [...]ame, and I will doe the best that I can, to resolue you in any thing that you shall de­mand.

Then this shal be my first demand. Be the churches, congregations, & assemblies there distincted into particulars, as into pari­shes and precincts, one exempt from another, or are they dispersed here and there abroad, without any order, exemption, or limitation of place at all?

Euerie particular church, congre­gation, assemblie, or conuenticle is diuided one from another, and distincted into parishes, and pre [...]incts, which seuerall precincts and pari­shes are so circum [...]ired and limited about with bounds and marks, as euerie one is knowne of what parish he is, and vnder whose charge he liueth. So that euerie shepheard knoweth [Page] his flocke, euerie pastor his shéepe. And again [...] euerie flocke knoweth his shepheard, and eue­rie shéepe his pastor verie orderlie, and well in my simple iudgement.

Doe you allow then of this partiti­on of churches, and of one particular congrega­tion from another?

Yea trulie. It is not amisse, but a verie good order, for thereby euerie pastor doth knowe his owne flocke, euery shepheard his owne shéepe, which without this diuision could not be. Besides that we read that euen in the apostles daies (who writ to particular chur­ches themselues, as to the Rom. Corint. Thes. Phil, &c.) in the daies of Christ, & in the times of the prophets before Christ, churches, assem­blies, and congregations were euer distincted one from another, & diuided into seueral flocks companies, and charges. So that although they had not the name of this word parish amongst them, yet had the thing ment thereby in effect.

Then it followeth by your reason, that there are infinite churches in Dnalgne, and I haue learned out of the book of God, that there is but one true church, and faithful spouse of Christ vpon the earth. How reconcile you these two places?

Uerie well. For although there be [Page] infinite particular churches, congregations and assemblies in the world, yet doe they all make but one true church of God, which being diui­ded in time and place, is notwithstanding one church before God, being mēbers of the mysti­cal body of Christ Iesus, & felow members one of another, so as they can neuer be diuided nei­ther frō themselues, nor frō their head Christ.

Who doe you constitute the head of the vniuersall church of Christ vppon earth, Christ Iesus, the pope, or the prince?

Christ Iesus, whose the bodie is, must néeds [...]e, & is the onely true head of the v­niuersall church. Then next vnder him euerie christian prince in his kingdom. And as for the pope he is head ouer the malignant church, the church of the diuel, and not of Christ Iesus. No he is so far from being head ouer the vniuersal church of Christ, that he is no true member of the same, but rather the childe of perdition, the first borne of satan, a diuell incarnate, and that man of sin (euen Antichrist himselfe) that must be destroied with the breath of Gods mouth.

By whom be these particular chur­ches and congregatious gouerned and ruled?

By bishops, pastors, and other infe­riour officers.

Do you shut out the prince then f [...]ont gouerning the church?

No God forbid. For take away [...] Brachium seculare, The lawfull power, and gouernement of the temporal magistrate from the regiment of the church, and ouerthrow the church altogither. And yet notwithstanding the necessitie hereof, the dooting anabaptists and brainesicke papists haue most deuilishly deni­ed the same. The anabaptists denie (most ab­surdly) the authoritie of the magistrate altogi­ther. The papists seing themselues conuinced by the manifest worde of GOD denye not their authority absolutely, but that their au­thority extendeth to the gouernement of the church, forsooth they vtterly denie, hereby ex­empting themselues, and plucking away their neckes from vnder the yooke of christian obe­dience due vnto migistrates, contrarie to the expresse word of our sauiour Christ, and his apostles who saith Omnis anima subdita sit po­testatibus supereminentibus? Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers, for there is no power but of God. And therefore they are to be obeyed as the ministers of God of all whatso­euer.

Well than I gather thus much that euery king prince, or potentate is supreame head next vnder God, ouer the church of GOD dispersed through his kingdomes, and domini­ons, [Page] is not this true?

Uerie true. And therefore that anti­christ of Rome, hath plaide the traitor a long while, both to Christ Iesus and all christian kings, in arrogating and vsurping to be su­preame head ouer all the world. Whereas in­deed he being a greasie priest, & smered prelate, hath no more authority than other oiled shaue­lings haue, nor so much neither, and yet that authoritie is but ouer the maligant church of antichrist, and not of Christ Iesus. I beseech the Lord therefore to breake of that power, to grind in peces that stumbling blocke of offence and to wipe off the heads of that monstrous hi­dra, so as neuer any mo may growe thereof a­gaine.

Seeing you say that euerie prince is supreame head ouer the church of God within his dominions, what authoritie therfore assign you to the prince to execute in the church.

It is the office and dutie of a prince not only to see elected, sent forth, & called, good, able, & sufficient pastours, for the instruction of the church, but also to see that good orders, con­stitutions & rites be established, and duely per­formed, that the worde be preached, the sacra­ments truely ministred, excommunication, discipline and ecclesiasticall censures orderly [Page] executed to the honor of God, and benefit of his church. But if it be said that these thinges are to bee executed of the ecclesiasticall per­sons onely. I answere true it is, but if the ec­clesiasticall magistrate be negligent, secure, slouthfull, and carelesse about the execution hereof (as who seeth not some be) than ought the prince to shew his authoritie in command­ing and inioining them to doe their office. Be­sides this it is the office of the prince to see all kind of sinne, as well in the church men them­selues, as in all others of the church seuerely punished. And though I grant the prince to haue the soueraigntie and primacie ouer the church of GOD, within his dominions, yet my meaning is not, that it is lawfull for the prince to preach the word, to minister the sa­cramentes, or to execute the sentence of ex­communication, and other ecclesiasticall disci­pline and censures of the church, but (as be­fore) to see them done of them, to whom it ap­perteineth. For saith the apostle nemo sumat sibi, honorem nisi qui legittime, vocatus fue­rit vt fuit Aaron. And againe, vnusquisque in ea vocatione, qua vocatus est maneat a­pud deum? But in times past the papists bare the worlde in hande, that no temporall po­wer whatsoeuer coulde nor ought not to [Page] meddle wyth the clergie, and therefore made they vassals of most christian Princes. Yea that pernicious antichrist of Rome, in those daies of ignorance hath not béene ashamed to make Kings, Queenes, Emperours, Dukes, Lords, and all other how honorable or noble soeuer, his lackeis, his pages, his horsekee­pers, and compelled them to hold his stirups, to leade his horse, and to prostrate themselues before him, whilest he trod vpon their neckes. But God be praised, this great antichrist is discouered to all the world, and his shame so laid open, as euery childe iustlie laugheth him to scorne.

You said before that the churches there were gouerned by bishops, and pastors, how by them?

The bishops are graue, ancient, and fatherlie men, of great grauitie, learning, and iudgement (for the most part) constitu­ted by the Prince ouer a whole country, or prouince, which they call their dioces. These graue fathers hauing authoritie aboue all o­ther of the ministerie, in their dioces, do sub­stitute vnder them in euerie particular church a minister, or ministers according to the ne­cessitie of the same. And thus doeth euery bishoppe in hys owne dioces thorow out the [Page] whole realme. So that no church how small soeuer, but it hath the truth of Gods word, and of his sacraments truly deliuered vnto it.

Are those preaching prelates that the bishops do place in euerie congregation or else reading ministers?

It were to be wished that all were preaching prelates, and not reading ministers only, if it could be brought to passe, but though all be not preachers, yet the most part be, God be praised therefore.

Be any readers onlie, and not prea­chers, that is a great abuse. For I am persua­ded that he that cannot preach, ought not to supplie a place in the church of God to read on­lie, how say you?

It is no good reason to say bicause all ought to be preachers, that therefore rea­ders are not necessarie. But indeed I am of this iudgement with you, that whoso can but read onelie, and neither is able to interpret, preach, expound, nor explane the scriptures, nor yet to refell and conuince the aduersarie, nor to deliuer the true sense and meaning of the scriptures, ought not to occupie a place in the church of God, as the pastor thereof. For God commandeth that the pastors be learned, saieng: Labia sacerdotum custodiant vorita­tem, [Page] & ediscant populi verbum dei ex ore eo­rum, Let the lips of the priests preserue know­ledge, and let the people learne the truth out of their mouthes. And therefore those that haue not this dexteritie in handling the worde of God, they are not sent of God, neither are they Christs vicegerents or pastors to instruct his flocke. To such the Lord saith: They rule, but not by me, they run, but I sent them not, they crie thus saith the Lord, whereas hee neuer spake it. These are those woll shepheards, and dumbe dogs, of whom speaketh the prophet, that are not able to barke against sinne. And therefore I beseech the Lord to remooue them, and place able and sufficient pastors ouer his church, that GOD may be glorified, and the church edified in the truth.

Bare reading I must néeds say is bare féeding, but what then? Better it is to haue bare feeding than none at all.

Uerie true. And therefore are not they more scrupulous than they ought, more curious than néedes, and more precise than wise, that bicause they cannot haue preaching in euerie church, doe therefore contemne ree­ding, as not necessarie? This is as though a man should despise meane fare, bicause he can­not come by better, whereas I thinke it is [Page] better to haue meane fare then none at all, or as though a man bicause he cannot come by the carnell at the first, will therefore ca [...] awaie both the nut and the carnell. It were good (as saith the apostle) that all could prophesie, that is, that all could preach, and expound the truth, but bicause that al haue not the gift, is therfore reading naught? And therefore a sort of noua­tians lately sprong vp, haue greatly faulted herein, in that they hold that no reading mini­sters only ought to be permitted in the church of God, as though (as I say) because a man can not haue daintie fare, therefore it is good to haue none at all. But to be plaine, as I will not defende a dumbe reading ministerie only, so I will not condemne it for necessities sake, when otherwise euery place cannot be suffici­ently furnished at the first with good and suffi­cient men as it ought.

But it is thought that there are inow able men in the vniuersities, and else­where to furnish euery particular church with a preaching minister?

Truely I thinke there are so, if they were sought for & preferred: but alas those that are learned indeed they are not sought for nor promoted, but the vnlearned for the most part, somtimes by frendship, somtime by mony [Page] (for they pay wel for their orders. I heare say) and somtimes by gifts (I dare not say bribes) are int [...]uded. This maketh manie a good schoo­ler to languish, and discourageth not a fewe from goyng to their bookes. Whereby lear­ning greatlie decaieth, and barbarisme I feare me will ouerflow the realme if spéedie remedie be not had herein.

As farre as I can gather by your speeches, there is both a reading and a preaching ministerie, whether doe you prefer before the other.

I preferre the preaching mini­sterie before a reading ministerie only: and yet the reading ministerie if the other can not be had, is not therefore euill, or not necessarie.

But tell me this. If there might a preaching ministerie be gotten ought not the reading ministerie to giue place to the same?

Yea, doubtlesse. And therfore the bishops ought to seeke for the learned sort, and as it were to sue and make instance to them, and finding them worthy as well for their life, as doctrine to call them lawfully according to the prescript [...] Gods word, & so to sende them forth into the [...]rds haruest. And where the foresaide dumbe ministerie is, to displace the same, and place the other. By this meanes the [Page] word of God should flourish, ignorance (man­ger the head of satan) be abandoned, the church edified, and manie a one incouraged to go to their bookes, whereas now they practise no­thing lesse, and all by reason that by their lear­ning they haue no promotion nor preferment at all.

Do these preaching ministers preach onely in their owne cures, flockes and charges, or else indifferently abroad else where?

They preach for the most part in their owne charges, and cures whereouer the holie Ghost hath made them ouerseers, and for which they shall render a dreadfull account at the day of iudgemennt, if they doe not their du­tie, diligently as God hath commanded. But though they preach most commonly in their owne cures, yet doe they sometimes helpe their felowe brethren to breake the bread of life to their charges also. Wherein me thinke they do not amisse. For if a watch man appointed by a whole citie, or towne to giue warning when the enimie commeth, seeing an other citye, or towne to be in danger, giueth sufficient warn­ing to his owne citie, and goeth and warneth the other citie also, and so by this meanes deli­uereth them both, I say, that in so doing, hée doth well, and according to charitie. And yet [Page] notwithstanding diuers new phangled felows sprong vp of late, as the Brownists, and there adherents, haue spoken verie blasphemouslie hereof, teaching in their railing pamphletes, that those who are lecturers or preach els wher than in their owne cures, are accursed before god. Than the which, what can be more absurd­lie, or vntruely spoken? For if they grant (as they cannot deny) that the word of God is good, then cannot the declaration of that which is good in one place be hurtfull in another. And read we not that the apostles themselues went from place to place, preaching the word to eue­rie congregation? Christ Iesus did the same, & also taught vs, that he came not to preach to one citie onely, but to many?

Doe the reading ministers onely continue and read altogither in their owne charges or not?

The reading ministers after they be hired of the parishes (for they are mercena­ries) they read commonly in their owne char­ges, and cures, except (which is a horrible a­buse) that they haue two or three cures to serue all vpon one day, and peraduenture two or three myles distant, one from another. Which maketh them to gallop it ouer as fast as they can, and to chop it vp with all possible expediti­on, [Page] though none vnderstand them, and as fewe be edified by them.

Be these reading ministers well prouided for, so as they want nothing, or not?

No truly. For if the other prea­ching ministers bee not well prouided for (as in truth they be not) then how can the other be well maintained? And therfore they haue som of them ten pound a yeere (which is the most) some eight pound, some sixe pound, some fiue pound, some foure pound, some fortie shillings, yea and table themselues also of the same. And sometimes failing of this too, they runne roging like vagarents vp & downe the coun­tries like maisterlesse men, to seeke their maintenance. Whereby some fall to one mis­chiefe, some to another, to the great slander of the Gospell of Iesus Christ, and scandall of the godlie. And yet part of these reading misters be too well prouided for, for some of them haue two or three, yea foure or fiue be­nefices apeece, being resident but at one of them at once, and peraduenture at neuer a one, but roist it out elsewhere, purchasing a dispensation for their discontinuance, and then may no man say: Domine cur ita fa­cis? Sir why doe you so? For hee hath [Page] plenarie power and authoritie granted him so to doe.

That is an horrible abuse that one man should haue two or thrée, or halfe a dozen benefices apéece as some haue, may anie man haue so many liuings at one time by the lawe of God, and good conscience?

As it is not lawfull for anie man to haue or enioie two wiues at once, so is it not lawfull for any man how excellent soe­uer to haue mo benefices, mo flockes, cures, or charges in his handes than one at once. Nay I am fullie persuaded that it is more tollerable (and yet it is a damnable thing) for a man to haue two wiues or mo, than for a man to haue two benefices at once or mo. For by possibilitie a man might discharge the du­tie of a good husband to two or thrée wiues (yet to haue mo than one is the breach of Gods commandements) but no man though he were as learned as Saint Paule, or the apostles themselues to whome were giuen superna­turall and extraordinarie giftes and graces, is able sufficientlie to discharge his du­tie in the instruction of one church, or congregation, much lesse of thrée or foure or halfe a dozen as some haue. And as one father cannot bee manie fathers, one pastor [Page] manie pastours, nor one man diuerse men, so one sheepeheard or pastour cannot, nor ought not to haue diners charges, and flocks at once. Is it possible for any shepheard though he were neuer so cunning a man, to kéepe two or thrée flocks or mo at once, and so féed them wel and in due season dooing the dutie of a good shepheard in euerie respect, they being distant from him, ten, twentie, fortie, sixtie, an hun­dred. two hundred, or thrée hundred miles? Much lesse is there any man able to discharge the dutie of a good pastor ouer so manie flock [...], churches, and congregations so farre distant in place, wheras the simplest flocke that is, re [...] ­reth a whole, and perfect man, & not a péece of a man. Therfore I aduise al benefice mongers, y^• haue mo charges then one, to take héede to thē ­selues, and to leaue them in time, for the blood of al those within their cures, or charges, that die ghostlie, for want of the truth of Gods word preached vnto them, shall be powred vp­on their their heads, at the day of iudgement, and be required at their hands.

If they haue so many benefices a peece, and some so farre distant from another, then it is not possible that they can be resident vpon them all at once. But the matter is in dispute, whether they may not as well be ab­sent, [Page] or present, what is your iudgment of that?

To doubt whether the pastor ought to be resident with his flocke, is to doubt whe­ther the soule should be in the bodie, the eie in the head, or the watchman in his tower. For this I am fully persuaded of, that as the soule is the life of the bodie, and the eie the light of the same, so the word of God preached is the life, and light as well to the bodie as to the soule of man. And as necessarie as the one is to the bodie, so (and much more) necessarie is the other both to soule and bodie. Now certein it is, these things cannot be applied without the presence of the preacher or pastor▪ and ther­fore is his absence from his flocke a dangerous and a perilous thing, and as it were a taking away of their life and light from them; which commeth by the preaching of Gods word vnto them.

But they say though they be not pre­sent by themselues, [...]t be they present by their substitutes and deputies, is no [...] that a suffici­ent d [...]scharge for them before God?

I grant they are present by their deputies and substitutes, but if a man shoulde [...]ooke into a great sort of them, he should finde them such as are fit [...]er to feed hogs, than chri­stian soules. For as for some of them are they [Page] not such as can scarcely read true english? And for their zeale to Gods worde and true religi­on, are they not such as can scarce tell what it meaneth? The truth of Gods word they can­not easily preach nor expound. The aduersarie they cannot refell: barke against sinne they dare not, bicause their liues are licentious. They will read you their seruice faire and cleanly (as the doting papists did their blas­phemous) masses out of their porcesses) and when they ha [...]e done, they will to all kinde of want on pastimes and delights, with come that come will, and that vpon sabboth day, festiuall day, or other, no day is amisse to them. And all the wéeke after, yea all the yéere (if I said all the yéeres of their life I lied not) they will not sticke to kéepe companie at the alehouse from morning till night, tipling and swilling till the signe be in Capricornus. Insomuch as if you would know where the best cup of drinke is, go to these malt woormes, and I warrant you you shall not misse of your purpose. By these mercenaries their deputies, and the like, I grant they are present in all their flocks, but so as it were better▪ or as good they were ab­sent for any good they doe, but rather hurt by their euill example of life. The residence of these their deputies is no discharge for them [Page] before the tribunall seate of God: for notwith­standing the same, let them be sure to answere for the bloud of euerie one of their sheepe, that miscarrieth through their default, or their de­puties. Their deputies shal not excuse them at the day of iudgement I dare be their warrant. Therefore I wish them to take heed to it be­time, least afterward it be too late.

But I heare say, that what is wan­ting either in their deputies, or in themselues for not being daily resident, they supply either by preaching their quarter sermons thēselues, or else (if they be not able) by procuring of o­thers to do it for them. Is not that well?

It is as though a man euery quarter of a yéere once, shuld take his plow, & go draw a furrow in a field, & yet notwithstanding should looke for increase of the same: were not be a foo­lish husbandman that wold do thus? And euen so is he no lesse vnwise that plowing but one furow, that is, preaching but one poore sermon in a quarter of a yéere (& perchance but one in a whole yéere, nay in 7. yéeres) wil notwithstan­ding loke for gret increse of the same. Now the cause why this ground bringeth not forth fruit is, for that it is not plowed, furowed, & tilled al togither as it ought to be. So the cause where­fore the pore churches doe not bring forth fruit [Page] is, for that they are not furrowed, manured, and tilled, as they ought, and bicause the word of God is not preached vnto them, and as it were braied, punned, interpreted, and expoun­ded, y^t it sinking down into the good ground of their harts, might bring forth fruit to eternal life. If the strongest mans body that liueth vp­on the earth should be nourished with nothing for a whole quarter of a yeeres space, but one­ly with two or three drops of aqua vite, aqua angelica, or the like, euery day, and at euery quarters end should be fed with all manner of dainties, I am perswaded that his bodie not­withstanding would soone be weake inough. Nay do you thinke it were possible to liue one quarter of a yeere? Euen so falleth out in this case. For although our soules (which liue by the word of God, as our bodies doe by meate) be daily fedde with hearing the word read as it were with aqua vite, or swéet necter, and at euerie quarters ende, haue a most excellent & sumptuous banquet to pray vpō, yet may they macerate and pyne away notwithstanding for lacke of the continuance of the same. And ther­fore the worde of God is to be preached night and day, in time, and out of time, in season, and out of season, and that without ceasing, or in­termission. And if that saieng of the prophet be [Page] true (as without all controuersie it is most true (that he is accursed. Qui fecerit opus do­mini negligenter, That doth the worke of the Lord negligently, or fradulently, then must it néeds be, that those who hauing cure of soules, and doe seldome, or neuer preach, are within the compasse of this curse. Let them take héede to it. The apostle Paule said of himselfe, Vae mihi nisi euangelizauero, Wo be to me, if I preach not the gospel, and doe they thinke that the same wo is not proper to them if they prech not? Haue they a greater priuiledge than the blessed apostle saint Paule had? No, no, these vaine excuses will not serue them, therfore as they tender the saluation of their owne soules, and many others, I wish them to take heede, and to shew themselues painefull laborers in the Lords haruest.

As far as I remember by the lawes of Dnalgne there is a restraint, that none shall haue no more benefices at once than one, how is it then, that they can holde so manie a peece, without danger of the law?

They make the lawes (as it were) shipmens hoos [...]n, or as a nose of waxe, turning and wresting them, at their pleasure to anie thing they lust. But bicause they will auoide the lawes, they purchase a dispensation a li­cence, [Page] a commission, a pluralitie, a qualifica­tion, and I cannot tell what else, by vertue whereof they may hold totquots so manie, how manie soeuer, and that with as good a consci­ence as Iudas receiued the mony for the which he sold Christ Iesus the Sauiour of the world. Or if this way will not serue, then get they to be chaplines, to honorable, & noble personages by prerogatiue whereof they may holde I can­not tell how manie benefices, yea as manie as they can get. But I maruell whether they thinke that these licenses shall go for good pai­ment at the daie of iudgement. I thinke not. For sure I am that no license of man can dis­pense with vs, to doe that thing, which is against Gods worde (as these totquots is) and therfore vnlawful. They may blind the foolish world with pretensed dispensations, and qua­lifications, but the Lorde will bring them to account for it in his good time, GOD grant they may looke to it?

In whome doth the patronage, right, and gifture of these ecclesiastical promo­tions, and benefices consist, in the churches themselues, or in whom else?

Indeede you saie well. For who shoulde haue the patronage, the right, the in­terest, and gifture of the benefices, but the [Page] churches themselues, whose the benefices are by right, and to whome Proprio iu [...]e, They doe apperteine? For doe not the benefices con­sist either in tithes, or contributions, or both? Nowe, who giueth both the one and the other? Doe not the Churches? Then by good reason ought they to haue the gifture and bestowing of them, and the right and interest thereof ought to remaine in the power of the church, and not in anie other priuate man whatsoeuer.

Why? Then I perceiue you would not haue anie priuate or singuler man of what degree soeuer, to haue the patronage the right, or gifture of anie ecclesiasticall li­uing, but the churches themselues, is not that your meaning?

Yes truely, that is my meaning, and so I am of opinion it ought to be.

Why so I beseech you?

Bicause one man may easely be corrupted, and drawne to bestowe hys benefice eyther for fauour, affection, or monie, vppon such as bee vnworthie, the whole Church will not so. Againe, the whole liuing is nothing else but either pure almes, or deuocion, or both, the Gentelman or other that pretendeth the gifture thereof, [Page] giueth not the whole liuing himselfe, ergo hee ought not to haue in his owne power, the only gifture of the same. Thirdly the whole church will not giue the same for simonie, one priuate man may be induced to doe it. Fourthlie, the church will kéepe no part of the liuing backe from the pastor, if he doe his dutie, nor imploie it to ther owne vse, the singularitie of one man may easilie be abused: nay the most patrones kéepe the fa [...]test morsels to themselues, and giue scarcely the crums to their pastors. But if the benefice be woorth two hundred pound, the will scarcely giue their pastor foure score. If it be woorth an hundred pound, they will hardly giue fortie pound. If woorth forty pound it is well if they giue ten pound, imploieng the better halfe to their owne priuate gaine. Now if this be not sacrilege, and a robbing of the poore churches of their substance, as also a de­frauding of the Lords minister of his dutie and right, then I knowe not what sacrilege, and fraude meaneth. Yea there are some, that ha­uing ground in another parish, than where they dwell, against the time that their shéepe, kine, and other cattell should bring f [...]rth in­crease, will driue them thither, so that the fruit falling in the other rar [...]sh, he shall not néed i [...] pa [...] tithes for the same to his owne pastor [Page] where he dwelleth. And against the time that the other pastor of that parish where his cattell [...]ll, shall demand his tithes thereof, they will haue fetched home their cattell, so that by these sinister kind of meanes, they will neither pay in the one parish, nor in the other. But if the one commence sute against him, he answereth, they fell not in his parish: if the other doe the same, he pleadeth that he is not of his parish, nor dweth him ought. But indéed they wil pay for their ground in the other parish a little her­bage (as they call it) a thing of nothing to stop his mouth withall. So that hereby the poore pastors are deteined from their right, and al­most beggered in most places that I haue come in.

How came temporall men by the right of their patronages, and how fell they in­to their clowches, can you tell?

I will tell you as farre as euer I could coniecture how they fel into their hands. In the beginning when Antichrist the pope ex­ercised his vsurped authoritie, and challenged the title of supreme head ouer the vniuersall church of Christ vpon the face of the earth, to whomsoeuer would either erect churches, tem­ples, and oratories (as then the world was gi­uen to blinde superstition as to instaurate [...] ­beies, [Page] prieries, nunries, with other sumptuous edefices, and houses of religion, thinking the same a worke meritorious, and to gilte, crosses images, and the like fooleries) or else giue ground for the same to be built vpon, his vn­holie holines, did giue the patronage, and pre­tensed right of the same church, and benefice belonging to the same. Othersome thinke (to whome I willinglie subscribe) that the Churches (consisting of simple, and ignorant men for the most part) abusing the same be­nefices, and bestowing them vpon vnmeete persons, the princes haue taken them out of their handes, and giuen the right patronage, and possession of the same to the temporaltie, to the ende they might bestowe them better. But as they were taken from the churches for some causes, so ought they to be remooued and giuen againe to the Churches for greater causes. For nowe are they bought and soulde for simonie, euen as an ore or a cow is bought and sold for mony.

Are there no lawes for the re­strainte of simonie, being so horrible, and detestable a vice in the church of God?

Yes that there are. As he that is patrone taking monie for his benefice, to loose the patronage of the same, and the [Page] ecclesiasticall person, that giueth it, to loose the same benefice, the monie giuen or pro­mised to be giuen, and to remaine incapable of anie other ecclesiasticall promotion after­warde for euer. But doe you thinke they are fooles? Haue they no shift to defeate the lawe. Yes I warrant you. For though they giue two hundred, or three hundred pound for a benefice, yet it shall be done so cloosely, as no dogges shall barke at it. But bicause at the time of their initiation, institution, induction, and admission they are sworne whether they came by it by simonie or no, whether they gaue anie monie for it, or no, therefore to a­uoide the guilte of periurie, they the pastors themselues will not giue anie monie, but their friendes shall doe it for them, and than may they sweare (with as good a conscience as euer Iudas betraied Christ) that they gaue not a penny, but came by it freely, as of gifte. Or if this waie fayle them, than must they giue the patrones a hundred pounde, or two hundred pounds vpon some bargayne, that is not woorth a hundred pence, and then maye they sweare if neede be, that they came by the bene [...]ce franke­lye, and freelye, and that they gaue the money vppon such and such a bargaine, [Page] without some of these practises, or without such a dish of apples, as Master Latimer talk­eth of with thirty angels in euery apple, thogh he be neuer so learned a man, I warrant him, he gets nothing. But if he can get a graffe of this tree loden with such golden apples, it will serue him better, then all Saint Paules learn­ing. For these and the like abuses infinite, if the patronages were taken away from them, that now enioy them, nay, that make ha [...]ocke of them, and either to rest in the right of the Prince (as they ought) or else in the right of the churches, who will not be corrupted, it were a great deale better, than nowe they bee. For now the poore pastours are so handled at the hands of their patrones, that they neyther haue mony to buy them bookes withall, nor which is lesse not to maintaine themselues vppon though but meanelye, but are manye times constrained either to wander abroad to séeke their liuings or els to take vp their Inne in an alehouse, or in some od corner or other, to the great discredite of the gospell of Christ, and offence of the godlie. This argueth flatly that we loue not Christ Iesus, who make so little of his messengers, and ambassadors. He that despiseth you, despiseth me, and he that re­ceaueth and maketh much of you, he receiueth [Page] me, and maketh much of me saith Christ. The beathen gentils, and pagans, prouide better for their idolatrous priests, then we do for the true preachers of the gospell, and disclosers of the secrets of God. For when the Egyptians were sore pooled of Pharao, the priests by his commandement were excepted, and permitied to haue all necessarie maintenance whatsoe­uer. But we are of another mind, for we think whatsoeuer we get of thē is won, it is our own good, whereas in truth, what we withdrawe from thē (prouided that they be diligent prea­chers of the pospell) we withdraw it frō God, and ferrie it to the deuil. But hereof more shal be spoken (Christ willing) hereafter, when we come to this question, whether it be lawful for preachers and ministers of the Gospell, to re­ceiue wages and stipends for preaching of the worde.

By what law may a minister of the Gospell make claime to tithes, and other pro­fits, emoluments, duties and commodities, be­longing to him, by y^e law of God, or of man?

God in the law of Moses, gaue spe­ciall commnandement that tithes, and other oblations, commodities, and profits should be giuen to the priests, to the end that they might attend vpon the diuine seruice of God, and not [Page] busie themselues in worldly affaires, which ordinance or fanction being méere ceremonial▪ is now fully abrogate by Christ (for in him the truth, al ceremonies, shadowes, types & figures ceased, & toke their end.) And therfore cannot a preacher of the Gospel claime his tithes by the lawe of Moses, but by the positiue lawes of Christian princes, which are to be obeied in all things (not directly against true godlinesse) vp­on paine of damnation.

Are tithes then due to be paid by the positiue law of man, and not by the lawe of God?

Yea truly by the positiue lawe of man: which godlie constitution is now no lesse to be obeied vnder the Gospel (being comman­ded by a christian prince) than the [...]iuine insti­tution was to be obeied vnder the law. And al­though tithes bee due by the positiue lawes of man, yet are the same groūded vpon the word of God, and commanded as well by God as by man. And therefore he that breaketh this ordi­nance (being an excellent policie) violateth the commandements of God, and breketh the con­stitution of his liege prince to his damnation, except he repent.

Must euerie one pay his tithes truely to euery pastor whether he be ought, or [Page] naught, learned or vnlearned, without any exception, or may he deteine it with good con­science from him that is an vnfit and vnable minister?

If he be a good pastor and diligent in his calling, and withal able to discharge the dutie of a faithful shepheard ouer his flock, then ought he to haue al tithes paid him whatsoeuer with the better, and if any should withhold the lest mite from him, he sinneth against the ma­iestie of God most gréeuously. And although he be a wicked man, and not able to discharge his dutie, though but in small measure, yet ought euerie man to pay him his due faith­fully and truly. For in denieng him his dutie, they might séeme to withstande authoritie, which they ought not to doe. In the meane time giuing themselues to praier, and suing to them that haue the authoritie for his dis­placing, and placing of another that is more able in some measure to discharge the dutie of a faithfull pastor. Notwithstanding I know some are of opinion that if any man giue either tithes, or anie dutie else to their pa­stor being an vnfit, and an vnable person, he is partaker with him of his sinne, he communi­cateth with other mens offences, and he main­taineth him in his idlenesse, sloth, ignorance, [Page] and securitie, and therefore offendeth gréeuou­sly. But I am of opinion that euerye man ought to pay their dutie (for else he might séeme as I said to resist the power) & if he be not able to discharge his dutie, to pray for his remoo­uing, and to make instance to them that are in authoritie appointed for the redresse of such in­ormities, for his displacing, and so not to at­tempt any thing without good and lawfull au­thoritie grounded vpon the word for the same▪

May a pastor that hath a charge and a flocke assigned him to watch ouer (hauing & maintainable liuing allowed him of his flock) preach in other places for monie▪

Hee may sometimes obteining li­cence for some reasonable cause of his owne flocke, preach the word of God abroad in other places, but then he ought to doe it gratis, co [...] ­tenting himselfe with the liuing allowed him at home of his owne parish. Notwithstanding, if the other churches where he shall haue prea­ched, will voluntarily impart any thing to the supplie of his necessities, in respect of his pains taking, he may thankfully receiue the [...]ame. but he may not compell, nor constraine them to giue it him whether they will or not against their wils, as manie impudently do [...]e

Then I perceiue if it be not law­full [Page] for a pastor that hath a flocke, and a stipend appointed him, to receiue monie vppon con­straint of strangers for preaching the worde abroad in other places, then is it not lawfull for him to take monie in his cure for preaching funerall sermons, marriage sermons, christe­ning sermons, and the like, as many do. What say you to this?

There are manie woorthie of great blame in this respect. For though they rec [...]iue fortie pound, a hundred pound, or two hundred pound a yéere, of some one parish, yet will they hardly preach once a moneth, nay happily not once in a quarter of a yéere, and sometimes not once a twelue moneth, for the same. And if a man request them to preach at a burial, a wed­ding, or a christening, they will not doe it vn­der an angell, or a noble at the lest. And there­fore the papists, and aduersaries to the Gospel call our Gospel, a polling Gospel, our sermons roiall sermons, angell sermons, and noble ser­mons. You call say they our blessed masse a polling masse, but say they your preachings are more polling. For we say they would haue sold a masse for a grote, you will not sell a sermon vnder a roiall, or a noble. And thus these fel­lowes are a slander to the Gospel, and robbers of their fellowe brethren. If I should hire a [Page] man for fortie pound, an hundred pound, or more, or lesse, to teach my children nurture and knowledge, if he for the execution therof shuld aske me more for the same than we agréed for, were not this man a naughtie, exacting, and fraudulent felowe? Nay if I compound with him to teach them in the best maner he is able for so much, and he doth it not, and yet receiue my monie, haue not I good lawe against him? If he should say vnto me, I will not doe it ex­cept you giue me more, were not this a very vnreasonable man? For hauing his monie that was couenant, is hee not bound both by lawe and conscience to teach them to the vt­termost of his power? Or if he shall not doe it, and yet take my monie, is not he a théefe and a robber? Is this true in a priuate man, & not in an ecclesiasticall person? Is he not hired to that end & purpose to preach the word of God to his flocke? And hath hee not wages for the same? Shall he now denie to preach the same word except he haue more monie? Or is he not bound in conscience to preach the same night and day without ceasing? And if he doe not, is he not a deceiuer, a théefe, & a robber? The pastor there­fore hauing taken vpon him the cure & charge of his flocke, and hauing his stipend appointed for the same, is bound to preach the worde of [Page] God to all his flocke indifferently whether it be at buriall, wedding, christening (yea then especially) or at any other time whensoeuer, without taking, or requiring of any more mo­nie, than the stipend he was hired for. For if he take any more, it is plaine theft before God, and one day shall be answered for: let them be sure of it.

You condemne not funerall sermons then, so that they be good, doe you?

No, God forbid. Why should not godlie sermons be as wholsome (and as neces­sarie) at the burials of christians, when wee haue such liuely spectacles before our eies, of our mortalitie, miserie, and end, as they be at all other times? Yea truely at that present I thinke godlie sermons verie necessarie to put the people in remembrance of their mor­talitie, of their great miserie, and frailtie, of their fatall end, of the immortalitie of the soule, of the generall resurrection at the last day, and of the ioie, felicitie, and beatitude of the life to come, with the like godlie in­structions, that they may the better prepare themselues to the same when God shall call them hence to himselfe. And although of late some phantasticall spirites haue taught that the vse of them is naught, in that they [Page] stand in place of popish diriges, and I cannot tell what, yet cannot I be easilie drawne to as­sent vnto them, for that I sée them in that re­spect a great deale more curious than godlie wise.

Is it lawfull thinke you for mini­sters, and preachers of the Gospell to receiue stipends, and wages for their preaching?

Why not? Otherwise how should they bee able to kéepe themselues frée from worldly occupations, and trauels of this life (as they ought) to applie their studies for the discharge of their duties, to maintaine them­selues, their family, and houshold, or how shuld they kéepe hospitalitie for the reléefe of the poore, all which they are bound to doe both by Gods lawe, and good conscience? Therefore take away liuings, and wages from the prea­chers, and ouerthrowe preaching altogither, the ordinarie meane to saluation in Christ. This caused the apostle to enter disputation of this point, where he prooueth by inuincible ar­guments, that a preacher or minister of the Gospell of Christ Iesus, may (Salua conscien­tia, With a good conscience) receiue wages, and stipends for his paines susteined in the af­faires of the Gospell, and that for the causes abouesaid. Therefore saith this apostle: Boui [Page] trituranti non ligabis os, Thou shalt not mussle the mouth of the oxe that treadeth foorth the corne. Whereby is ment, that he that laboreth, and taketh paines in any good exercise, ought not to be denied of his méed for his paines. A­gaine he saith: Dignus est operarius mercede sua, The workman is woorthie of his reward. And still insisting in the same argument, hee saith: Qui euangelium praedicant, ex euange­lio viuant, They that preach the Gospell, let them liue vpon the Gospell. And yet further prosecuting the same more at large, he saith: Quis militat, &c. Who goeth on warfare at any time of his owne charges? Who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit? Who féedeth a flocke, and eateth not of the milke of the flock. By al which reasons, and arguments it appeareth, that he who preacheth the Gospel ought to liue of the Gospell. But as euerie pa­stor that hath a peculiar stocke assigned him may with the testimonie of a good conscience receiue wages, and maintenance of his flocke, for his paines taken amongst them: so may he not, nor ought not to take wages or salarie of any other flocke adioining, if so be it, that ei­ther vpon request, or his owne voluntarie good will, he preach the word of God amongst them. To them that are thus prouided for, Christ our [Page] sauiour saith: Gratis accepistis, gratis date, Fréely you haue receiued, fréely giue againe. But if any haue not a speciall flocke, or charge assigned him, then may he with good consci­ence receiue the beneuolencie, the friendly contributions, and rewards of the churches to whom he hath preached. And this is probable both by the word of God, and the examples of the apostles themselues.

What say you of preachers, and lecturers, that haue no peculiar flockes, nor charges appointed them, are they necessarie, and may they receiue wages with a good con­science of the flockes, and charges where they preach the word of God?

First you aske me whether prea­chers, and lecturers that haue no peculiar [...]locks nor charges of their owne to attend vp­on, be necessarie. Whereto I a [...]swere. That considering the s [...]ate, & condition of the church at this day, they are most necessarie. But if it were so, that euerie church and congregation had his preacher (as euery one ought to preach, else is he not sent by the Lord) then were they not so necessarie, but considering that most churches are planted and fraught with single reading ministers, they are verie behouefull to helpe to supplie the defect of the others, that [Page] through the good industrie as well of the one, as of the other, the churches of GOD may bee instructed and nourished with the worde of GOD to eternall life. Then you aske mee whether these lecturers and preachers may receiue wages of the churches to whom they preach, with a good conscience, whereto I answere, that they may. But yet I am persuaded, that it were much better for them to haue particular flocks of their owne▪ to the end that they receiuing sufficient main­tenance of them, might (if they were at anie time disposed to bestowe any spirituall graces abroad) doe it Gratis, frankly and freely with­out any charges to the poore churches of Iesus Christ.

But what if the pastors liuing be not maintaineable nor sufficient for him to liue vpon, may hee not take wages of other flocks abroad?

I am persuaded no. For if his li­uing be too little, then ought the church to mend it, but if the church either for want of zeale will not, or through extreame pouertie cannot increase his liuing, then ought the pastor to content himselfe with that little, which God hath sent him, following the example of the apostle, who biddeth the children of GOD [Page] to be content with their wages, bee it little or be it much: for if they haue meate, drinke, and cloth, it is inough, and as much as nature re­quireth. We brought nothing (saith he) into this world, neither shall we carrie any thing out. Againe, those that will be rich, fall into di­uers temptations, and snares of the diuell, which drowne men in perdition and destructi­on. Therefore if it be s [...]fficient to yéelde him meate, drinke, cloth, and other necessaries, he is bound to content himselfe with the same. Which if he doe (for the zeale he beareth to his flocke) I doubt not but the Lord will open the harts of his flock towards him, and both make them able, and willing to support his necessi­ties. For if hee deliuer vnto them spirituall things, doubtlesse the Lord will moue them to giue vnto him temporall things. And therfore ought he to perseuere, and in his good time, without all peraduenture the Lord will looke vpon him, as he hath promised.

Doe you allow of that vagarant mi­nisterie, which is in manie countries, but most specially in Dnalgne sprong vp of late, to the discredite of the Gospell of Iesus Christ, and offence of the brethren?

Allow of it qouth you? No God for­bid. But I rather deplore it with all my hart, [Page] knowing that it is most directly against the word of God, the example of the primitiue age and all good reformed churches thorough the world. Is it not a pitifull case that two hun­dred, thrée hundred, fiue hundred, a thousand, fiue thousand, yea possible ten thousand shall be called into the ministerie, in one countrie, not a quarter of them knowing where to haue any liuing or charge? And what do they then? Runne stragling, and rouing ouer countries, from towne to towne, from citie to citie, from shire to shire, and from one place to another, till they haue spent al that euer they haue, and then the most of them either become beggers, or else attempt wicked and vnlawfull meanes to liue by, to the great dishonour of God, and slander of the word.

Me thinke this is a great abuse, that so manie, or any at all should be called into the ministerie, not hauing flocks, and charges pro­uided for them before.

It is a great abuse indéed. For if pastor come of Pasco, to feed, if he be not a shep­heard that hath no flock, and if he be not a fee­der, that giueth no sustinance, nor a father that hath no childe, then are they no shepheards, nor no watchmen sent from the Lord, that haue neither flocks, nor charges to watch ouer. For [Page] he that is made a shepheard (or a minister) that hath no particular flocke readie to receiue him, is so far from being a lawfull shepheard, by reason of his former admission, that he is rather made a pastor by the church that hireth him to be their watchman and guide, than of him that first called him into that function. And therefore woulde I wish that bishops and others to whome it doth (Ex officio) apper­teine to call, and admit pastors, and teachers in the church of GOD, to bee verie carefull héerein, and not rashly to lay their handes vpon any, before they haue had sufficient triall as well of their life and doctrine, as also of the flock and charge where they shal be resi­dent, that they go not like maisterlesse hounds vp and downe the countries to the slander of the Gospell.

Why? Then I perceiue you would haue none called into the ministerie, before there be a place void for him, is not that your meaning?

That is my meaning indéed.

But are you able to prooue your assumption, out of the word of God, or else I will giue but small credit to you in such mat­ters of controuersie as this is?

I haue not, neither doe I meane to speake anie thing vnto you touching these matters, but what I am able (I trust) to prooue by the worde of GOD. And yet I grant Errare possum (for Hominis est labi, & decipi, Man may bee deceiued and fall) but Hereticus esse nolo, Erre I may, but here­tike I will not be. No, so soone as I shall be conuinced by the manifest worde of God, of any of my former positions or assertions, I will willingly subscribe to the truth. But being persuaded as I am, giue me leaue, I beséech you (vnder correction) to speake what I thinke. But now to the purpose. In the first chapter of the Actes of the apostles re­corded by the Euangelist Saint Luke, wee read that Matthias succéeding Iudas the trai­tour in the administration of the apostle­ship, was not chosen nor elected (notwith­standing that the apostles by the reuelation of the spirite of GOD, knew that he should fall from the same in the end) vntill the place was voide, and emptie. In the sixt chap­ter of the Actes of the apostles wee reade also of seuen deacons, which were chosen for the dailie ministring to the poore, but when I pray you? Not before the church (destitute of their seruice) had néed of them, nor before there [Page] were places readie to receiue them, wherein they might exercise their function, and calling. Then if the apostles would not choose not so much as deacons, which is an office in the church of God farre inferiour to the office of the pastor, or preacher, before places were void and readie to receiue them, much lesse would they, or did they choose or call any pastor into the church of God, before the church stood in need of him, and before there be a place readie to receiue him. Besides that, we read not tho­rough the whole euangelicall historie, that euer the apostles called any to be pastors and preachers of the word, before such time as there were places void for them. Common reason me [...]inke, and daily experience should teach vs this truth sufficiently, if we were not wil­fully blinded, that when any church or congre­gation is destitute of a pastor, it were better to place there one able person, than to make two or three hundred, or mo vnable fellowes, and they for want of liuing to runne stragling the countries ouer, without any liuing or mainte­nance at all, being glad of any thing. For as the old saieng is: Hungrie dogs eate sluttish puddings.

What order would you haue obser­ued in this?

Me thinke this were a verie good order. That euerie church or congregation be­ing destitute of a pastor should present to the bishops, and others to whom it dooth apper­taine, one or two, three or foure able persons, or mo, or lesse, as they conueniently can, whose liues and conuersations they haue had suffici­ent triall of, whose soundnesse in religion, in­tegritie of life, and godly zeale to the truth they are not ignorant of. Then the bishops and o­thers to whom it doth apperteine, to examine and trie them thoroughly for their sufficien­cie in learning, soundnesse in doctrine, and dex­teritie in teaching, and finding them furnished with sufficient gifts for such an honorable cal­ling to admit them, to lay their hands vppon them, and to send them foorth (the chiefest of them) to that congregation or church so desti­tute. Which order if it were strictly obserued and kept (as it ought to be) then should not so manie run abroad in the countries to seeke li­uings, then should not churches bee pestered with insufficient ministers. Then should not the bishops be so deceiued in manie as they be. And no maruell. For how should the bishop choose but be deceiued in him, whom he neuer sawe before, whose conuersation he knoweth not, whose disposition hee is ignorant of, and [Page] whose qualities and properties in generall, he suspecteth not? Whereas if this order were established, that euerie church destitute of a pastor should present certeine able men, whose conuersation and integritie of life in euerie respect they perfectly knowe (for the whole church is not likely to erre in iudging of their conuersations, who haue béene either altogi­ther, or for the most part conuersant amongst them) then (as I say, should not the bishop be deceiued in any, nor yet any church scandali­zed with the wicked liues of their pastors (or rather depastors) as they be. For now it is thought sufficient for the certeintie of his con­uersation, if he either haue letters dimissorie from one bishop to another (whereas they lit­tle or nothing knowe the conuersation of the man) or else letters commendatorie from any gentleman, or other, especially if they be of any reputation. If he can get these things, he is likely to spéede I warrant him. Which thing is scarce well in my iudgement. For you knowe one priuate man, or two, or thrée, or foure may peraduerture either write vpon affection, or else bee corrupted with bribes or gifts, whereas the whole church can­not, nor would not. Therefore is the other the surer way.

How prooue you that the chur­ches that are destitute of a pastor, ought to pre­sent him whom they would haue admitted, to the bishop, and not the bishop to intrude vpon the church whom he will?

In the first chapter of the Actes of the apostles before cited, we read, that after the defection of Iudas the traitour, the apostle Peter knowing it necessarie that one shoulde be chosen in his place, to giue testimonie and witnesse of the resurrection, and ascension of Christ Iesus, commanded the church to present one or two, or mo, as they thought good, that hee with his fellowe brethren might confirme and allow them. And there­vppon saith the text, they chose two, to wit, Matthias, and Ioseph, surnamed Bersabas. And the church hauing presented them, they were elected, confirmed, and allowed of the apostles and elders. Also in the foresaide sixt chapter of the Acts of the apostles when the deacons (whose office was to make collections for the poore, and to sée the same bestowed vpon them without fraud or deceit) were to be cho­sen, the text saith, that the apostles desired the church to choose foorth seuen men from amongst them, of honest report, & ful of the holie Ghost, which they might appoint to that businesse. [Page] By all which reasons appereth, that the church ought to present him, or them, whom they would haue to be admitted, and not that the bishop ought to present, to allow,, or to intrude him vpon the church at his pleasure against the will thereof.

Why would you not haue pastors to be thrust vpon the churches, whether the churches will or not?

Bicause it is manifest that no church will so willingly receiue, nor yet so louingly imbrace him that is intruded vpō them against their wils, as they will doe him that they like of, choose, and allow of themselues. And if the churches beare not a singular loue, fauour, good will, and affection to their pastor, it is vnpossi­ble that they should heare him, or learne of him with profit to their soules. And if they heare him not Auide & sitienter (as we say) Greedi­ly and thirstily thereby to profit, then shal they perish euerlastingly, in that the word of God is the ordinarie meane appointed by the diuine maiestie. And therefore in conclusion if there be not a mutual amitie, loue, and affection be­twixt the pastor and his flocke▪ and if that the one l [...]ue not the other, as themselues, it is not to be looked for that either the one shall teach, or the other receiue any thing to their soules [Page] health, but rather the cleane contrarie.

I pray you what is your iudgement in this? What if a man be once lawfully cal­led into the ministerie, may he euer vpon anie occasion whatsoeuer, leaue off the same functi­on, and applie himselfe to secular affaires?

There is a twofold calling. The one a diuine calling immediately from God, the other a humane calling immediately from and by man. Now he that hath the first diuine calling (his conscience suggesting the same vn­to him, and the spirit of God certifieng his spi­rit of the certeintie thereof) being furnished with gifts and graces necessarie for such a high function and office (as God calleth none, but he indueth them first with gifts, and graces neces­sarie for their calling) and afterwards is law­fully called of man according to the prescript of Gods word, hauing a flocke appointed him wherevpon to attend, this man may not, nor ought not at any hand to giue ouer his calling, but to perseuere in the same to the end, for that he hath both the diuine and humane callings, being furnished with all gifts, and graces ne­cessarie (in some measure) for the discharge of his high function and calling. Yet notwithstan­ding in time of extreame persecution, when Gods truth is persecuted, and his glorie defa­ced, [Page] if he have not wherewithall to maintaine his estate otherwise, he may for the time giue himselfe to manuall occupations, and corpo­rall exercises in the affaires of the worlde, as we sée the apostles themselues did, who after Christ Iesus was crucified gaue themselues to their old occupations of fishing, making of of nets, tents, pauilions, and the like. But vp­on the other side, if a man haue not this diuine calling, his conscience bearing him witnesse thereof, nor yet the graces, gifts, and orna­ments of the minde, fit for his calling (which whosoeuer hath not, it is a manifest argument that the Lorde hath not sent him, for those that hee sendeth, hee furnisheth with all kinde of graces, and giftes necessarie for their cal­lings) this man though he be called by humane calling neuer so precisely, yet he may, nay hee ought to leaue his function, as vnwoorthie to occupie a roome in the church of God, repre­senting (as an idoll doth) that thing which hee is not. Besides, hee that is compelled, and inforced either by friendes (as manie are) or by pouertie (as not a few bee) or for anie other respect else to take that high function vpon him, without the testimonie of a good conscience, being not furnished with gifts, and graces fit for such a calling (which argueth di­rectly [Page] that God hath not called him) hee I say is so farre from being bounde neuer to leaue his function and calling, that hee ought not one minute of an houre to continue in the same, though he bee called by man a thousande times. Therefore he that is a minister, and hath charge of soules committed vnto him, let him if hee bee not furnished with such gifts [...]s his high calling requireth, in the name of GOD make no doubt of it to giue ouer his function vnto others that are able for their giftes to discharge the same, in the meane time giuing himselfe to godlie exer­cises of life, as God may be glorified, his con­science disburthened, and the commonwealth profited.

But I haue heard of some that considering the naughtinesse of their calling, and their owne insufficiencie to discharge the same, haue therefore left off their function, giuing themselues to secular exercises, and in the ende haue béene inforced to resume their former function vpon them againe, and that whether they would or not. How thinke you of this?

I thinke truely that they who compelled them to take againe that function which they were not able to discharge, and [Page] therefore lest it haue gréeuously offended there­in. This is as if I knowing a simple ignorant foole presumptuously to haue taken vpon him a great and waightie charge, yea such a charge as all the wisedome in the world is not able thoroughly to performe, and when he in taking a view of his owne insufficiencie, shuld be moo­ued to leaue his charge to others better able to execute the same than hee, I should notwith­standing not onely counsell, but also compell him to resigne againe his former great charge which I knowe he is neither woorthie, nor yet able euer to accomplish. Thinke you not that he that compelleth him to take againe that of­fice or calling which before he had least for his inabilitie, shall not answere for the same, yes truely, you may be sure of it? In conclusi­on, he that is sufficiently furnished with such gifts as are necessarie for his calling, & withal is found able to discharge in some sort his duty ought not to leaue his function (for to such a on that so doth, Christ saith hee that laieth hande vppon the plough, and looketh backe, is not fit for the kingdome of God.) But againe, he that hath not these gifts, and graces suffici­ent for his calling, to the discharge of his dutie ought not to occupie a place in the church of God, as the pastor thereof, much lesse ought he [Page] when he hath (for his inabiltie) leaft the same to be constraied to resume againe his former function, and calling, which he is not able to discharge. But hereof inough.

Then I perceiue that any minister or ecclesiasticall person that hath not gifts suf­ficient to discharge his duty may with good con­science leaue their functions, and giue them­selues to liue by their labors, as others tempo­rall men doe, may they not?

Yes, with a better conscience than to retaine them being not able to discharge them in any small measure. For with what cō ­science can he receiue temporall things of his flocke, and is not able to giue them spirituall? With what face can a shepeheard receiue of his sheepe, the milke, the wooll, and fleece, and yet will not, or cannot giue to the same either meate or drinke sufficiently? With what con­science can he receiue fortie pound, a hundred pound, or two hundred pound, a yeere of his poore flocke, and is not able to breake to them the breade of life, in such forme, and maner as he ought? Nay how can he euer haue quiet con­science that knowing that the blood of all those that die ghostlie for want of instruction shal be powred vpon his head at the day of iudgment, and be demanded at his handes, will yet not­withstanding [Page] refeane the same charge, and function to himselfe still, not being able to dis­charge the least iote of the same? Therefore would I wish euery man of what office, func­tion, or calling soeuer he be, if he be not able to discharge his dutie in the same, to giue it ouer, and not for greedinesse of a little mucke or dung of the earth, (For monie is no better) to cast away their soules, which Iesus Christ hath bought with his most precious blood.

Is it lawfull for a pastor or mi­nister that hath a flocke to departe from the same. In the time of plague, pestilence, or the like, for feare of infection?

Is he a good sheepeheard that when he seeth the wolues comming, will take him to his heeles and runne away? Or is he a sure freend that when a man hath most neede of his helpe, will then get him packing, not shewing any fréendship towardes him at all? I thinke not? And truly no more is he a good pastor, or minister, (but rather a depastor, and minisher) that in time of any plague pesti­lence or sicknes, whatsoeuer will conuey him­selfe away from his flocke, for feare of infecti­on, at the houre of death, when the poore peo­ple haue most need of comfort aboue all other times, then is he their pastor that shoulde féede [Page] them, the furthest from them. When they stande vppon the edge as it were of saluati­on, or damnation, then permits he the wolfe to haue the rule ouer them. Our Sauiour Christ saith Bonus pastor animulam dat pro ouibus ▪ A good shepheard giueth his life for his shéepe, but these felowes are so far from giuing their liues for their sheepe, that they seeke to saue their owne liues with the destruction of their whole flocke. This is the loue that they beare vnto their flocke, this is the care they haue ouer their soules health, which Christ Iesus bought so deere with the price of his blood. Out vppon those shepheards that for feare of incurring of corporall death (which is to the Godly an entraunce into parpetuall glorie) will hazard manie a thousande to die a corporall and a spirituall death both, yea, & death of damnation both of body & soule for e­uer. Do they thinke that their blod shall not be asked at their hands at y^e gret day of the Lord. Do they thinke y^t their flieng away from their flock, is a mean to preserue their liues y^e longer vpon earth: Is not God able to strike them as well in the fields, as in the city, as well in the country as in the towne, in one place, as well as in another? Is not his power eueriewhere? Is not his messenger death in al places? Saith he not in the booke of Deuteron▪ that if we doe [Page] not those things, which he hath commanded vs in his sacred word, cursed shall wee bee at home, and cursed in the fields. And saith he not further, that the plague and pestilence, the botch, bile, blaine, or else what deadly infection soeuer shall followe vs, and lay hold vpon vs, in what place soeuer we be, and shall neuer de­part from vs, till it haue quite consumed vs from the face of the earth? And doe these fugi­tiues that ouerrun their flocks in time of infec­tion, thinke that they shall escape the heauie wrath and vengeance of God for their tergi­uersation and backsliding from their duties? Doe they thinke that God cannot saue them frm corporal death, but with the breach of their duties towards God? Is not the Lord as well able to defend them from any deadly infection if it be his good pleasure, as he was to defend Sidrach, Misaach, and Abednego from the fla­ming fire? Daniell from the mouth of the li­ons, Ionas frō the iawes of the mightie whale, with manie others that trusted in him? Doe they thinke that his arme is shortened, or his power weakened? Is he not able to deliuer his children, that in dooing of their duties de­pend vpon his prouidence? And to bee plaine with them, me think that in flieng away from their flockes, they shew themselues to thinke [Page] that either God is not almightie, or else noc mercifull, or neither. For if they beléeued that he were almightie, and that hee were able to saue them, then they would neuer run awaie from their flocke, but depending vpon his pro­uidence, beléeue that he is as well able to deli­uer them in one place as in another, if it bee his good pleasure. And if they beléeued that he were mercifull, then would they rest vpon the same, not doubting, but as he is almightie, and omnipotent, and therefore can doe al things, so he is most mercifull, and therfore wil preserue al those that put their trust in him. If a tempo­rall magistrate that exerciseth but a ciuil office in the commonwealth shuld go away from his charge for feare of infection or plague, wheras his present abode might do more good than his absence, he greatly offendeth, how much more then offendeth he, that being a pastor or féeder of soules, flieth away from his charge, wheras his presence might doe a thousand times more good than his absence? And if it please the Lord to take them away to himselfe, are they not most happie? Enter they not into eternal glo­rie? And haue they not an end of all miseries and paines in this life, and the perfect fruition of perpetuall ioie in the heauens? Are they not blessed, if when the Lord shal call them, he find [Page] them so well occupied as in féeding, & breaking the bread of life to the pore members of Christ Iesus for whose sakes he shed his hart blood?

But they say, we ought not to tempt God, which thing they must needs doe if they shoulde tarrie when they see death be­fore their face. And they say further, that it is written that we must keepe the whole from the sicke, and the sicke from the whole. Besids saie they, Natura dedit, potestatem tuendi vi­tam omni animanti, Nature hath giuen pow­er of defending of life to euerie liuing creture. Againe, euery thing fleeth from his contrarie, but death is contrarie to nature, for it came through the corruption of nature, therfore we flie from the same by the instinct of nature. These and the like fond reasons they alledge, for their excuse in flieng from their flocks, and charges, what say you to them?

I can saie little to them. But one­lie this, that none of all these reasons doe pri­uiledge them to discontinue from their flockes and charges. And whereas they saie, that their staieng were a tempting of God, it is verie vntrue, it is rather a reuerent obediēce to this tripled cōmandement, Pasce oues meas, pasce oues meas, pasce oues meas, Feede my sheepe, feede my sheepe, feede my sheepe. But indeede if it were so that a priuate man who hath no [Page] kind of function nor office, neither ecclesiasti­call nor temporall, seeing himselfe if he staie stil in great danger of death, & might auoid the danger by flieng, & so by the grace of God pro­long his life, and yet will not, this man if he tarie tempteth the Lord, and is a murtherer of himselfe before God. And to such it is said, thou shalt keepe the whole from the sicke, & the sick from the whole. This is the meaning & sence of these words, and not that they do priuiledge any man for not doing of his dutie. But not­withstanding all that can be said in confutaci­on of this great & extreeme contempt of their duties, I haue knowne and doe know some ministers (nay wolues in sheepes clothing) in Dnalgne that in time of any plague, pestilence or infection, thogh there hath bin no gret dan­ger at all that haue bin so far from continuing amongst their flock, y^t if any one of them were sicke, although of neuer so cōmon or vsuall dis­ease, yet fearing to be infected with the conta­gion thereof they haue absented themselnes al­togither, from visiting y^e sick according as they ought, & as dutie doth bind them. Yea some of them (suppose you of mercenaries, & hirelings, but not of god pastors) are so nice, so fine & so feareful of death forsoth y^e in no case they can­not abide to visit the sicke, neither by day nor [Page] by night. But in my iudgement it is as inci­dent to their office and dutie, to visite, to com­fort, to instruct, and relieue the sicke, at the houre of death, as it is for them to preach the word of God to their flocke al the daies of their life. And peraduenture they may doe more good in one howre at the last gaspe, then they haue done all the daies of their life before. For he that in his life time hath had in small esti­mation the blessed worde of God, but follo­wing his owne humors in hope to liue long, hath lead a very wicked and impenitent life, nowe through the consideration and sight of death, which he seeth before his eies, togither with godly exhortations, admonitions, and consolations, out of the word of God, may ea­selie be withdrawne from his former wicked life, and dieng in the faith of Iesus Christ, with true repentance for his sinnes, to fore commit­ted, liue for euer in ioye both of body & soule, whereas if exhortations had not bin, he might (happily) haue died irrepentant, or vtterly des­perate to his euerlasting destruction for euer. Yea, it is cōmonly seene, that those who could neuer be wonne to Christ Iesus, all the daies of their life before, yet at the last howre they are soone recouered. Therefore ought not the pastors to neglecte their duties therein, but [Page] warely, and carefully to watche ouer their flocks, night and day without ceasing that whē the great shephard of the sheepe commeth, he may rewarde them with the immercessible crowne of eternall glory. And thus much be it spoken hereof.

In whome doth the election of the minister or pastor consist in the church onely or in the bishops?

I tolde you before (as I remem­ber) that the church might examine the life, the conuersation, and disposition of him, or them, whome they would haue to be their pastor, and finding the same good to present him, or them, to the bishops, or elders to whome it appertei­neth, to examine for his sufficiencie in know­ledge, and dexteritie, in teaching and handling the word of God, and finding him a man fur­nished with gifts and graces necessary for such a high vocation, to call him lawfullie according to the word of God, and so to sende him foorth into the Lords haruest, as a faithfull laborer therein.

But some are of opinion that the churches themselues of their owne absolute, and plenarie power ought to choose their pa­stor, and not bishops,

The churches haue no further [Page] power in the election of their pastor, than as I haue told you, that is, to iudge of his conuer­sation & integritie of life, referring the whole action besides to the bishops, and elders. For if the churches should elect their minister or pastor of themselues absolutely, besides that it would bréed confusion (for some would choose one, some another, some this, and some that, ne­uer contenting thēselues with any) the church should doe that also, which were directly con­trarie to the word of God. For certeine it is the church hath no absolute power by the word of God to elect their pastor, to choose him, to cal him orderly in such forme as is appointed in the word, obseruing all kinde of rites, ceremo­nies, & orders belonging thereto. Neither was it euer séene that any church did euer practise the same. For in the dais of the apostles did the churches any more than choose foorth certeine persons of a tried conuersation, & presented thē to the apostles? And did not the apostles then whom our bishops now in this action do repre­sent) lay their hands vpon them, approue them (after triall had of their sufficiencie in know­ledge) and sent them forth into the Lords vine­yard? The churches laid not their hands vpon them, or as some call it consecrated them not, nor vsed not any other ceremoniall rite in the [Page] election of them, as the apostles did. But as I grant that the church for som cause, and in so [...] respects is not to be excluded frō a consultatiue voyce (as before) or from being made priuie at al to the election of their pastor, so I denie that the church may absolutely of his owne plena­rie power cal their pastor, all ceremonies and rites thereto belonging obserued, for that is to be don and executed of the bishops & elders, and not of the churches consisting of lay men, and for the most part rude, and vnlearned.

What say you to a seigniorie or elder­ship, were it not good for the state of the church at this day that y^e same were established in eue­ry congregation, as it was in y^e apostles daies.

The seueral estates and conditi­ons of the apostolicall churches, and of ours (al circumstances duly considered) are diuers, and much different one from another, and therefore though a seigniorie or eldership then in euerie particular church were necessarie, yet now vnder christian princes it is not so néedfull. The churches then wanted christi­an princes and magistrates to gouerne the same, and therefore had néed of some others to rule in the church. But God be thanked we haue most christian kings, pri [...]ces, and gouer­nors, to rule and gouerne the church, & therfore [Page] we stand in lesse néed of the other. And yet not­withstanding I grant that a seigniorie in eue­ry congregation were to be wished, if it could be brought to passe, yet cannot I perceiue, but that it would rather bring confusion, than re­formation, considering the state of the church at this day. For in the apostles times when seigniories were ordeined, we read not of any shires, dioces, or precincts, where bishops and ecclesiasticall magistrates might exercise their authoritie and gouernement, as now they doe, and therefore, there being neither bishops, ec­clesiasticall nor ciuill magistrates (as we haue now) it was necessarie that the seigniories shuld be ordeined. But now we hauing al these things, stand not in such necessitie of them, as the churches in the apostles daies did. Be­sides, the institution of elders was but meere ceremoniall, and temporall, and therefore not to continue alwaies, neither ought the ne­cessitie thereof to binde all churches. Nei­ther doe I thinke that all churches are bound for euer to one forme of externall gouerne­ment, but that euery church may alter, and change the same, according to the time, and present state therof, as they shal see the same to make for the glorie of God, and the common peace of the church.

What say you to deacons? Is their office necessarie or not in the church of God at this day?

Their office (which was to make collections for the poore, to gather the beneuo­lencies, and contributions of euerie one that were disposed to giue, and to sée the same besto­ed vpon the poore and néedie members of the church) is very necessarie, and without doubt ought to be continued for euer. But yet is not the church tied to their names onely, but to their office. Which office is executed by honest substantiall men (called Churchwardens or the like) chosen by the consent of the whole congre­gation to the same end and purpose, who daily gathering the friendlye beneuolencies of the churches, bestow, or sée the same bestowed vp­on the poore, and indigent of the same church, which was the greatest part of the deacons du­ties in the apostles daies. So that albeit wee haue not the name, we yet hold their office in substance and effect.

What is your iudgement, ought there to be any bishops in the churches of chri­stians?

To doubt whether there ought to be bishops in the churches of chr [...]stians, is to doubt of the truth it selfe. For is there not [Page] mention made of their names, dignities, func­tions, and callings, almost in euery chapter of the new testament, in all the epistles of Paule, of Peter, of Iohn, of Iude, and of all the rest? Besides that did not the apostles themselues constitute and ordeine bishops and elders, and doe they not woonderfully commende the ex­cellencie of their calling, inferring that those that rule well, are worthye of double honour? Whereby appeereth that bishops are not on­lye needefull in the churches of christians, but also most needfull, as without whome I can scarcely see how the state of the church could well bee maintained. And therefore those that contend that they are not necessa­rie in a Christian Common wealth, shewe them selues either wilfull, waiwarde, or maliciouslye blinde, and striuing to catch their owne shadowes, they labour all in vaine, giuing manifest demonstration of their more than extreame follie to all the world.

Well. Let it bee granted (as it cannot bee denied) that they are moste necessarie, yet in this I would verie glad­lye bee absolued, whether they maye law­fullye vendicate or challenge to themselues superioritie, and primacie aboue their fellowe [Page] brethren of the ministerie or no, for some holde that there ought to bee equalitie in the ministerie, and no superioritie at all, how say you?

They doe not vendicate or chal­lenge anie superioritie or primacie to them­selues ouer their brethren in respect of their common callings, and functions (for therein the poorest pastor or shepheard that is, is coe­quall with them, they themselues will not de­nie) but in respect of dignitie, authoritie, and honour, which the prince and church doth be­stowe vpon them. So that the superioritie that they haue ouer their brethren, resteth in digni­tie, authoritie, and honour, which it hath plea­sed the prince to dignifie them withall aboue their felowe brethren, and not in calling, func­tion, or office, for therein they are all coequall togither. But if any curious he [...]s should de­mand why the prince should aduance any of the cleargie to such high dignitie, authoritie, and primacie aboue his brethren, I answer as it is in the Gospell: Is thine e [...]e euill, bicause the prince is good? May not the prince giue his gifts, his, dignities, and promotions to whom he will? And if the prince of his roiall clemen­cie be minded to bestowe vpon his subiect any dignity or promotion, is it christian avedience [Page] to refuse the same? Nay is it not extréeme in­gratitude towards his prince? Besides, who seeth not, that if there should be no superiori­tie (I meane in dignitie, & authoritie only) the same honorable office or calling would growe into contempt? For is it not an old saieng, and a true, Familiaritas, siue aequalitas parit con­temptum, Familiaritie, or coequallitie doth e­uer bring contempt. And therefore take awaye authoritie, and honor from the magistrates ei­ther temporall or spirituall, and ouerthrowe the same altogither. If authoritie should not be dignified, as well with glorie, and externall pompe the better to grace the same, & to shew forth the maiestie thereof, would it not soone grow to be dispised, vilipended and naught set by? And therefore the more to innoble, and set foorth the excellencie of this honorable cal­ling of a bishop, hath the prince, & the churches thought it good to bestow such authoritie, dig­nitie, and honor vpon them, and not for anie o­ther cause whatsoeuer. And therefore seeing it is the pleasure of the prince to bestowe such dignitie, authoritie, and honor vpon them, me thinke, any sober christians should easely tole­rate the same.

Yea, but they saie, that there [...]ught to be no superioritie in the ministerie, [Page] bringing in the example of the apostles them­selues amongst whom was no superiority, in­equalitie, or principallitie at all?

Indeede amongst the apostles there was no superioritie, I grant, neither in office calling, authoritie, nor otherwise, but al were equall in ech respecte, one to another. But what than? The apostles were sent to preach, to the churches, and not to gouerne (and therefore they choose elders to rule the same) but our bishops are as well to gouerne, and to rule the churches in some respects, as to preach the worde. And therfore though there were no superioritie amongst the apostles, yet maye there be amongst our bishops in respect of go­uerment, dignitie, and authoritie. And wher­as they saie there ought to be no superioritie in the ministerie at all, I answeare no more there is in respect of euerie ones function, forme of calling, and office to preach the word and minister the sacraments. But in respect of gouernement, authoritie, dignitie, and honor, there is superioritie, and I am perswaded so ought to be. In which opinion, vntill they haue disprooued it, I meane Christ willing to per­siste.

But they adde further, and say that it strengtheneth the hands of the aduersaries, [Page] the papists. For saie they the papists may as well affirme that christian emperours kings, and potentates, and euen the churches of God themselues haue giuen to the pope that authoritie, that dignitie, and honor which he hath or claimeth aboue his fellowe brethren, as well as the bishop may say so. Besides it confirmeth the opinion of soueraigntie ouer at the churches in the world, For say they may not the pope saie that he receiued plenarie po­wer to be head ouer all the world, from christi­an kings, emperours, and potentates, as well as the bishops may say, we receiued this pow­er to be superior to our brethren from christian kings and princes. Now whether these rea­sons be a like I would gladly know.

They be verie vnlike, and so vn­like as there is no equallitie comparison, or semblance betwixt them. For first of all let thē note, that the pope nor any of his complices, and adherents doe not holde, nor pretende to holde (no they dare as well eate off their fin­gers as to say so, for then were their state in a wofull case) that their archdiuell, their god the pope I should say doth receiue his power ei­ther of authoritie, superioritie, primacie, soue­reigntie, or head ouer all the world from any earthly creature, but immediately from God [Page] himselfe. But whereas hée sayth that hee re­ceiued his power of superioritie ouer all the worlde from no earthie creature, but from God himselfe, it is manifest that he receyued it neyther from God, (for his vsurped power is contrarie to God, and to his words in eue­rie respecte) nor from anie christian man, but from the Deuill himselfe, whose vicegerent or Liefetenant generall in his kingedome of impietie he shewes himselfe to be. Than let them note, that although hee pretended to holde his vsurped authoritie from man (as hee doth not,) yet is there no man howe migh­tie an Emperour, King, Prince, or Potentate soeuer, that is able proprio iure to giue him authoritie ouer all the worlde, without great and manifeste iniurye done to all other Prin­ces, as to giue the soueraigntie, or chieftie of their Landes from them, to a straunger. But a Prince may lawfullye bestowe, and geue to his subiectes anie prerogatiue, title, authori­tie, office function, gouernment, or superioritie of anie thing within his owne dominions and kingdomes, but no further he maye not. And therefore this reason of theirs holdeth not, that the Pope maye as well arrogate the one to himselfe, as the Byshops may the other to themselues.

Séeing now it cannot be denied, but that bishops are most necessarie, and that they may also lawfully hold superioritie ouer their brethren (in respect of gouernement, regiment or authoritie) being giuen them of the prince, what say you then to this? Whether may a bi­shop be called by the name of an archbishop, metropolitane, primate, or by the name of my Lord bishop, my Lords grace, the right honou­rable, and the like, or not? For me thinke these titles and names are rather peculiar to the temporaltie than to them, & do sauour of vain­glorie, and worldly pompe, rather than of any thing else. And which is more, me thinke they are against the expresse word of God. Where­fore I couet greatly to heare your iudgement thereof?

These names and titles may séeme to sauour of vaineglorie indéed, if they should arrogate them to themselues Iure diuino, as they doe not. But if you wil consider by whom they were giuen them, and how they doe re­quire them, you wil not thinke it much amisse, nor farre discrepant from the sinceritie of the Gospell. First therefore note that they were giuen them by christian princes to dignifie, to innoble, to decore, and to set foorth the digni­tie, the excellencie, and worthines of their cal­lings. [Page] Secondly let them note that they re­quire them as due vnto them by the donation and gifture of men, and not Iure diuino, and therefore being giuen them for the causes a­foresaid by christian kings and princes, they may in that respect hold them still without any offence to the diuine goodnesse, or his faithfull spouse vpon the earth. But if they shuld claime them as due vnto them by the lawe of God, as they doe not, then should they offend. For our sauiour Christ seeing his disciples and apo­stles ambiciously to affect the same vaineglo­rious titles and names, set before them the ex­ample of the heathen kings, thereby the rather to withdrawe them from their vaine humour, saieng: Reges gentium dominantur eis, &c. The kings of the gentils beare rule ouer them and those that exercise authoritie ouer them, be called gratious Lords, but Vos autem non sic, You shall not be so. In the which words he vt­terly denieth them (and in them all others to the worlds end, that in the same office and fun­ction of life should succeed them) the titles of Lords, graces, or the like. The apostle also bid­deth them to beware that they challenge not those vaine titles to themselues by the lawe of God, when he saith (speaking to bishops and pastors) Be not Lords ouer your flocks, &c. By [Page] these and manie other the like places of holie writt, it is cleare that they cannot arrogate these names, or titles to themselues by y^e word of God, neyther doe they, but (as I haue said) by the donation, the beneuolence, and gifture of christian Princes for the reuerent estimati- they bare and ought to beare to their high func­tion and calling, in that they are his Liefete­nants, his vicegerents in his Church, his mes­sengers, his Ambassadors, the disclosers and proclaimers of his secretes, and his Aungels, (for so are they called in the scriptures) & ther­fore in respecte of the excellencie hereof, these names were giuen and attributed vnto them. And truely to speake my simple iudgement, I sée not but that these names doe dignifie their callinges, shewe forth the maiestie thereof, and des moue the Churches to haue the same high calling in more reuerence, & honor, than other­wise they would, if they were called by bare & naked names onelie. But notwithstanding either this that hath béene saide, or anie thinge els that can be said herein, there are some wai­ward spirits lately reuiued, who held the same names to be méere Antichristian, blasphemous and wicked, and suche as at anie hande a Mi­nister of the Gospell ought not to bee called by. But whereas they holde them to bée Antichri­stian, [Page] I holde them to be Christian names, and geuen by Christian Princes to the innobling and garnishing of their offices, functions, and callinges, which doubtlesse is a glorie to God denie it who will, or who can. And therefore in conclusion I say, that Byshops though not by the lawe of God, yet by the positiue law, dona­tion, and gifture of Christian Princes, maye lawfully assume the saide titles, and names to them for the causes before cited. And there­fore these names and titles béeing meere indif­ferent, and not derogating from the glorie of God, but rather making for the same, they are not of anye wise, sober, or faythfull Christian, neyther to bee inueighed against nor yet to bee in anye respecte dislyked beeing vsed as before. And thus much of the names and titles of Byshops.

Maye Byshops exercise tempo­rall authoritie together with Ecclesiasticall, and maye they bee Iustices of peace, Iustices of Quorum, Iustices of Assises, Ewer, De­terminer, and the lyke, or maye they as Capytall Iudges geue desinytiue sentence of lyfe and death vpon malefactors and others, that by the iudiciall lawe of man haue deserued to dye?

There is neither of the callings temporall, nor ecclesiasticall, but it requireth a whole and perfect man, to execute the same. And if there were neuer founde any one man yet so perfect, as could throughly, and absolut­lie performe his office in either of the callings temporall or ecclesiastical, much lesse can there euer one man be found, that is able to discharg them both. It is hard therefore that these two callings should concurre in one man. This is as though a man hauing an importable bur­then alreadie vpon his backe, should yet haue an other almost as burthenous vrged vppon him. And therefore as it were absurde to see a temporall magistrate mount into the pulpit, preach the worde, and minister the sacraments so absurde it is to see an ecclesiasticall magi­strate exercise the authoritie temporall, and to giue sentence condemnatorie of life, & death, vpon any criminous person, which properlie [...]elongeth to the temporall power. Besids, it is a great discredite to the temporall magistrate, because it may be thought that they are not wise nor politique inough to execute their of­fice, nor discharge their duties without the aide, and assistance of the other. And which is more it hindereth them from the discharge of their duties in their owne calling, for [Page] it is written, no man can serue two masters, but either he must betraie the one or the other. When the woman taken in adultery was ap­prehended, and brought vnto Christ, he refused to giue iudgement of hir, and yet it was a mat­ter in effect ecclesiasticall, & appertained to an ecclesiasticall iudge. Then what ought they to do in matters meere ciuil? Againe our sauior Christ, when the yong man requested him to deuide the inheritance betwixt his brother, & him, refused the same saieng, Quis me consti­tuit iudicem inter vos? Who made me a iudge or a deuider betwixt you. Whereby appeareth how farre ecclesiasticall persons ought to bee frō hauing to doe, with temporal matters. But whereas they say the bishops of Dnalgne do exercise temporall authoritie, and doe it as iudges capitall, giuing sentence condemnato­rie of life, and death, it is verie vntrue other­wise than thus, to be present at the same, & to haue a consultatiue exhortatiue, or consenta­tiue voice onely. Which vse me thinkes is v [...] ­rie good and laudable in my iudgement. For whereas the temporal magistrates not vnder­standing in euerie point the deapth of Gods lawe if they shoulde doe anie thing either a­gainst the same, or the lawe of a good consci­ence, they might informe them thereof, that [Page] all things might bée done to the glorie of God, the comforte of the poore members of Christe Iesus, and the benefit of the common welth.

What fashion of apparell doe the pastors, and Ministers weare vsually in their common affaires?

The same fashion that others doe for the most parte, but yet decente, and comlie, obseruing in euerie point a decorum. But as others weare their attire, some of this colour, some of that, some of this thinge, some of that, so they commonly weare all their apparell, at least the exteriour part of blacke colour, which as you know is a good, graue, sad, and auncient colour. And yet notwithstanding herein some of them (I speake not of all) are muche to bee blamed, in that they cānot content themselues with cōmon, and vsuall fashions, but they must chop and chaunge euerie day with the worlde. Yea some of them are as fonde in excogitating deuising and inuenting of new fashions euerie day, & in wearing the same, as the veriest Roy­ster of them all. And as they are faultie in this respect, so are they herein to be blamed, in that they cannot contente themselues with cloth though neuer so excellent, but they must weare silkes, veluets, satans, damaskes, grograms, taffeties, and the like. I speake not agaynst [Page] those that are in authoritie for wearing of these thinges (for they both maie, and in some respectes ought to weare them for the dignifi­yng of their offices and callings, which other­wise mighte growe into contempte) but a­gainst those that bée meane pastours, and Mi­nisters, that flaunt it out in their saten dob­lets, taffetie doblets, silke hosen, garded gownes, cloakes, and the like. Alas howe shoulde they rebuke pryde, and excesse in o­thers, who are as faultye therein as the reste? Therefore sayde Cato verye well, Quae cul­pare soles, ea tu ne feceris ipse ▪ for sayeth he, Turpe est doctori, cum culpa redarguit ipsum. Which is, those thinges which thou blamest in others, sée that thou thy selfe bee not guil­tye in the same, for it is a foule blemish and a great shame and discredit, when that euyll which thou reprouest in an other, is apparent in thy selfe. For in so doing, a man reprehen­deth as well himselfe as others, is a hinde­rance to the course of the Gospell, and what he buildeth with one hand, he pulleth down with the other. Christ Iesus the great pastor of the shéepe was himself contēted to go daily in one poore coat, beeing knit, or wouen all ouer with­out seeme, as the maner of y^e Palistinians is to this day. This me think was but a simple cote [Page] in the eie of the world, and yet Christ Iesus thought it pretious inough. Samuel was accu­stomed to walke in an olde gowne girded to him with a thong. Elias and Elizeus in a man­tell, Iohn the baptist in camels haire with a girdle of a skin about his loines. The apostle Paule with a poore cloke, and the like, wherby appeareth, how farre a minister of the Gospell ought to be from pride, and worldly vanitie, obseruing the rules of christian sobrietie, as well in apparell, as in al things else, knowing that he is as a citie set vppon an hill, and as a candle set vppon a candlesticke to giue light, and shine to al the whole church of God. Ther­fore saith Christ: Sic luceat lux vestra coram hominibus, &c. Let your light so shine before men, that they seeing your good works, may glorifie your father which is in heauen: which God grant we may all doe.

Haue they no other kind of apparell different from the common sort of men?

Yes marie haue they. They haue other attire more proper, and peculiar vnto them (in respect of their functions and offices) as cap, tippet, surplesse, and the like. These they weare, not commonly, or altogither, but in especial when they are occupied in, or about the execution of their offices and callings, to [Page] this ēnd end purpose, that there may be a diffe­rence betwixte them, and the common sorte of people, and that the one maie be distincte from the other by this outward note or marke.

Is it of necessitie than required, that the Pastors and Ministers of the worde, should be distincted from other people, by anie seuerall kind of attire?

It is not required as of necessitie, bnt thought méete and conuenient to bee vsed for a decencie, and comlines in the Church of God. But notwithstanding the chiefest thyng wherby a pastor or minister oght to be known from the common, & vulgare sorte of people is, the preaching of the word of God, the admini­stration of the sacraments, the execution of ec­clesiastical discipline, and other censures of the Church, and withall his integritie of lyfe, and soundnesse of conuersation in euerie respecte. These are the true notes, and markes wherby a Minister of the Gospell ought to bee knowen and distincted from the other common sorte of people. And yet though these bee the chiefest notes whereby they are distinct from others of the temporaltie and laitie, yet are they not the onelie notes, or markes, for they are knowen and discerned from others also, by exteriour ha­bite, and attire, as namely by cappe, tippet, surplesse, [Page] and such like: That as the first doth di­stinguish them from others, whilest they are exercised about the same, (for who is so doltishe that séeing a man preache, minister the sacra­ments, & execute other ecclesiasticall censures of the church, that will not iudge him to bee a Minister of the Gospell?) so the other notes of apparell (the surplesse except) may make a dif­ference, and distinguishe them from others of the laitie abroad. To this end, that the reuerēce which is due to a good pastor, or minister of the Gospell may be giuen vnto them. For as the Apostle saith, those elders that rule well, are worthie of double honour.

But I haue heard great disputation and reasoning pro & contra, to and fro, that the pastors and ministers of the Gospell, ought not to be disseuered from the common sorte of people, by anie distincte kinde of apparell, but rather by sounding the Lordes voice on high, by ministring the sacramentes, and the like, what say you to the same?

Indéede there are some I confesse, that are of that opinion, and they bring in the example of Saule, enquiring of Samuell for the feers house, inferring that the Pro­phet was not distinct from other common peo­ple in his attire, for than Saule should easelie [Page] haue knowen him by the same. And the ex­ample of the damosell, that spake to Peter, inferring that whereas the mayde sayde, Thy speech bewrayeth thee, if he had bene distincte from others in attire, or outwarde apparell, shee would than haue sayd, Thy apparel shew­eth thee to bee such a fellowe. These with the like examples they pretende to prooue that pastors and Ministers are not to bee dis­cerned and knowen from the lay people, by a­nye kinde of apparell. But as I will not saie that they are to bee knowen, and discer­ned from others by apparell or habite onelye, (but rather by the lifting vp of their voices like Trumpetes as saith the Prophet) so I wyll not denye the same to bee no note or marke at all to knowe a Pastour or Mi­nister of the Gospell by from others of the temporaltie, and laitie. And truelye sor my parte, I sée no great inconuenience, if they bee by a certaine kinde of decente habite (commaunded by a Christian Prince) known and discerned from others. Yet some more cu­rious than wise, before they would weare anie distinct kind of apparell from others, they haue rather chosen to render vp both lininges, goods, families, and all, leauing their flockes to the mouth of the wolues.

Is it lawfull for a minister of th [...] Gospell to weare a surplesse, a tippet or forked cappe, and the like kind of attire?

As they are commaunded by the Pope the great Antichrist of the worlde, they ought not to weare them, but as they be com­maunded, and inioyned by a Christian Prince, they maie weare them without scruple of con­science. But if they should repose any religion, holinesse or sanctimonie in them, as the doting Papists doe, than doe they gréeuouslie offende, but wearing them as things méere indifferent (although it be controuersiall whether they bée things indifferente or not) I sée no cause why they maie not vse them.

From whence came these garments can you tell, from Rome, or from whence els?

The most hold that they came first from Rome, the poison of all the world, & most likelie they did so, but other some searching the same more narrowlie, do hold y^t they came not from Rome, but rather from Grecia, which frō the beginning for the most part, hath euer béen contrarie to the Church of Rome. But from whence soeuer they came it skilleth not much, for béeing mere indifferent, they maie be worn or not worne without offence, according to the pleasure of the Prince, as things which of thē ­selues [Page] bee not euill, nor cannot hurte, excepte they be abused.

Notwithstanding they holde this for a maxime, that in as much as they came first from the Papistes, and haue of them bene ido­latrouslie abused, that therefore they are not, nor ought not to bee vsed of anie true pastors, or Ministers of the Gospell. Is this their as­sumption true, or not?

It is no good reasō to say such a thing came from the Papistes, ergo it is naught. For we read that the Deuils confessed Iesus Christ to be the sonne of God, doth it follow therefore that the same profession is naughte, because a wicked creature vttered the same? All thinges are therefore to bee examined, whether the a­buse consist in the thinges themselues, or in o­thers that abuse them. Which being found out, let the abuses be remoued, and the thinges re­maine still. A wicked man maye speake good wordes, doe good works before the world, (but because they wante the oile of faith to souple them withall, they are not good workes before the Lord) and maie ordaine a good thing which maie serue to good ends, and purposes. And be­cause the same hath afterward béene abused, shall the thing it selfe therefore be quite saken away? No, take away the abuse, let the thinge [Page] remaine still, as it maye very well without a­nie offence, except to them, quibus omnia dan­tur scandalo, to whom all thinges are offence. And further, if these presicians would haue all things remoued out of the Church which haue béene abused to Idolatrie, than must they pull downe Churches, (for what hath bene abused more to Idolatrie and superstition?) pulpits, belles, and what not. Than must they take a­way the vse of bread and wine, not onely from the church, but also from the vse of man in this life, because y^e same was abused to most shame full idolatrie, iu béeing dedicate to Ceres, and Bacchus, twoo stinking Idols of the Gentiles. Than must they take away not onely the Epi­stles, and Gospels, but also the whole volume of the holy scriptures, because the Papistes a­bused them to idolatrie. By all which reasons with infinite the like, it manifestly appeareth, that manie things which haue beene instituted by Idolaters, or by them abused to Idolatrie, may be applied to good vses, and may serue to good ends, y^e abuses being takē away. Yet wold I not that any thing that hath béen idolatrously abused by the papists, should be reteined in the churches of Christians, if by any meanes they might be remoued, and better put in place.

Is the wearing of these garments [Page] a thing méere indifferent, or not? for some hold it is, some hold it is not?

It is a thing w^tout al cōtrouersy mere indifferent, for whatsoeuer gods word neither expresly cōmandeth, neither directly forbiddeth, nor which bindeth not y^e conscience of a christ­ian man, is a thing mere indifferent to be vsed, or not to be vsed, as the presēt state of y^• church, & time requireth. But it is certen that the wearing of this kind of attire is not expresly com­manded in the word of God, nor directly forbid by the same, & therfore is mere indifferent, and may be vsed, or not vsed without burthē of cō ­science, as y^e present state of time shall require. And therfore séeing they be things indifferent, I wold wish euery wise christiā to tollerate y^e same, being certen that he is neither better nor worse, for wearing or not wearing of them.

Being things as you say mere indifferent, may any man lawfully refuse y^e wearing of thē against the cōmandement of his prince, whom next vnder God he ought to obey?

Euery man is bound in conscience before God to obey his prince in all things, yea in things directly contrary to true godlines hée is boūd to shew this obediēce (but not to cōmit y^e euil) namely to submit himselfe life, lands, li­uings, or els whatsoeuer he hath to y^e wil of his [Page] Princes, rather then to disobeie. If this obedi­ence than be due to Princes in matters, contrarie to true godlinesse, what obedience than is due to thē in matters of small waight, of small importaunce, and méere triflles as these gar­ments be, iudge you? He that disobeieth the cō ­maundement of his Prince, disobeieth the com­maundement of God, and therfore would God all Ecclesiasticall persons that stande so muche vpon these small pointes, that they breake the common vnitie, & band of charitie in the church of God, would nowe at the last quallifie them­selues, shewe obedience to Princes lawes, and fall to preaching of Christ Iesus truelie, that his kingdome might dailie bee increased, their consciences discharged, and the Church edefi­ed, which Christe Iesus hath bought with the shedding of his precious hart bloud.

Maie a pastor, or a Minister of the Gospell forsake his flocke, and refuse his charge for the wearing of a surplesse, a cappe, tippet, or the like, as manie hane done of late daies, who being inforced to weare these garmentes, haue giuen vp their liuings, and forsaken all?

Those that for the wearing of these garments, being but the inuentions, the tradi­tions, the rites, the ceremonies, the ordinances & constitutions of man, will leaue their flocks, [Page] and giue ouer their charges, not caring what become of the same, doe shew themselues to be no true shepheards, but such as Christ speaketh of, that when they sée the Wolfe comming will flie away, leauing their flocke to the slaughter of the gréedie wolfe. They giue euident demonstration also, that they are not such as the holie Ghost hath made ouerseers ouer their flocke, but rather such as being possessed with the spi­rite of pride and ambition, haue intruded them selues, to the destruction of their flocke. If they were such good shepheards as they ought to be, and so louing to their flocke, they would rather giue their life for their shéepe if néede required, than to runne from them, leauing them to the bloodie téeth of the mercilesse wolues. Is hee a good shepheard that watcheth dailie vppon his flocke, or hee that runnes from them for euerie light trifle? I thinke we would count him a ve­rie negligent shepheard. And shall wee thinke him a diligent, or a good pastor, and one that would giue his life for his shéepe, as a good pa­stor should doe, that for such trifles wil estrang himselfe from his flocke for euer? Therefore I beséech God to giue them grace to looke to their charges, and to let the other trifles alone, being no part of our saluation or damnation.

But they saie they refuse the wea­ring [Page] of these garments, because they are offen­siue to the godlie, a scandall to the weake bre­thren, a hinderaunce to manie in comming to the Gospel, & an induration to the papists hard­ning their hearts, in hope that their trumperie will once come in again to their singular com­fort.

It is an old saying. Better a bad ex­cuse, than none at all. And truly it séemeth they are driuen to the wall, and sore graueled, that will flie to these simple shifts. But whatsoeuer they say or affirme, certain it is, that offensiue to the godly they cannot be, who haue already learned to distinguish betwixt the things abu­sed, and the abuses themselues. And who know also how to vse things mere indifferent to good ends, and purposes. And therfore this question thus I shut vp in few words, that the wearing of these garmentes béeing commaunded by a Christian Prince, is not offensiue, or scanda­lous to anie good Christians, and to the o­ther it mattereth not what it be. For they are such as the Lorde hath cast off into a reprobate sence, and preiudicate opinion, abusing all things, euen the truth it selfe to their owne de­struction for euer excepte they repent, which I praye God they maye doe, if it bee his blessed will.

I pray you why doe they weare white in their surplesses, rather than any other colour? and why a forked cappe rather than a rounde one, for the Papistes (if they were the authors of these garmentes) haue their misteries, their figures, & their representations in all things. Wherfore I desire to know your iudgment herein.

You say the truth, for the Papistes haue their misteries in all thinges after their maner. Therfore thus they say that white doth signify holines, innocency, & al kind of integri­ty, putting them in mind what they ought to be in this life, and representeth vnto them the be­atitude, the felicitie, and happines of the life to come. And thys they prooue ab exemplis apparitionum, from the example of apparitiōs and visions, in that aungels, and celestial crea­tures haue euer appeared in the same colour of white. Therefore forsooth they must weare white apparell. The cornered cappe say these misterious fellows doth signifie, and represent the whole monarchy of the world, East, West, North, & South, the gouernment whereof standeth vpon them, as the cappe doth vppon their heades. The gowne saye they doth signifie the plenary power which they haue to doe all things. And therefore none but the Pope, or hée [Page] with whome hee dispenceth, maie weare the same euerie where, bicause none haue plenari­am potestatem plenarie power in euerie place, but (Beelzebub) the Pope. Yet the Ministers saith he, maie weare them in their Churches, & in their owne iurisdictions', because therein they haue full power from him. Thus foolishlie do they deceiue themselues with vaine shewes, shadows, and imaginations, forged in the mint of their owne braines to the destruction of ma­nie. But who is he, that because these sottishe Papistes haue and doe gréeuouslie abuse these thinges, will therefore haue them cleane re­moued? If all thinges that haue beene abused should be remooued because of the abuse, than should we haue nothing left to the supply of our necessities, neither meat, drinke, nor cloth for our bodies, neyther yet (which is more) y^e word of God, the spirituall food of our soules, nor any thing els almost. For what thing is there in y^e whole vniuersall world, that eyther by one He­reticke or other hath not béene abused? Let vs therfore take the abuses away, and the things maie well remaine still. For may not we chri­stians vse these thinges which the wicked Pa­pists haue abused to good ends, vses, and purpo­ses? I see no reason to the contrarie. And there­fore in conclusion I beséech the Lorde that wee [Page] may all agrée togither in one truth, and not to deuide our selues, one from another for tris [...]es, making schismes, ruptures, breaches, and fac­tions in the church of God, where we ought to nourish peace, vnitie, concord, brotherly loue, amitie, and frendship, one amongst an other. And seeing we do all agree togither, and iump in one truth, hauing al one God our father, one Lord Iesus Christ our sauiour, one holy spirit of adoption, one price of redemption, one faith, one hope, one baptisme, and one and the same inheritance in the kingdome of heauen, Let vs therefore agree togither in these externall sha­dowes, ceremonies, and rites. For is it not a shame to agree about the marow, and to striue about the bone? to contend about the karnell, & to vary about the shell? to agree in the truth, and to brabble for the shadow? Let vs consider that this contention of ours among our selues, doth hinder the course of the Gospell from ta­king such deepe roote in the heartes of the hea­rers, as otherwise it would doe. And thus for this time brother Theodorus, we will breake off our talke concerning this matter, vntill yt please God that we may meete againe. Which if it please God we doe, I promise you in an o­ther woorke to discourse of the same more at large. In the mean time let vs giue our selues [Page] to fasiing, and prayer, most humbly beséeching his excellēt maiesty to blesse our noble Quéen, and to kéepe hir grace as the apple of his eie frō all hir foes, to maintaine his word, and gospell amongst vs, to plant vnity, and concord with­in our walles, to increase our faith, to graunt vs true and vnfained repentaunce for our sins, and in the end eternall life in the kingdome of heauen, thorow y^e precious death, passion, blood­shedding, and obedience of Christe Iesus our Lord, and onely sauiour, to whom with the fa­ther and the holy ghost, one true, and immortal God, be al honor, praise, power, empire, and do­minion throughout all congregations for euer­more. And thus brother Theodorus I bid you farewell in the Lord, till I do sée you againe.

And I you also good brother Am­philogus, beséeching the Lord that if we méete not vpon earth, we maye meete yet in the kingdome of heauen, there to rest in perfect felicitie for euer.

The Lord grant it for his mer­cies sake. Amen.