COme Sonne, you shall goe with me to your fathers farme, this faire day is very fit to walke abroad, and moderate walking is com­ended of all as good phi­sicke.

I will gladly attend you Mother, both in regard of your pleasure, and this fit oppor­tunity for the exercise of our bodies, which is the best phisicke that many a poore scholler [Page 2]hath in the vniuersity: but I hope the farme you goe vnto is not far off, because you speake of mod [...]rate walking.

What? knowe you not your fathers houses? this is the good that cometh of your long absence, & your fathers care to send you so farre away, which hath much grieued me, and in which respect I haue often reque­s [...] him [...]o send for you home.

Good Mother, I see and feele to my [...] I haue euer done, your ten­d [...] [...] and bowels of louing kinde­n [...] [...]wards me, and I must needes acknow­ledge my fathers great loue euen in this which you seeme to mislike, that he sent me to the vniuersity, for sure he did it in his speciall care ouer me, and in wisdome for my safety.

Safety? I pray you from what? would your mothers eye haue done you any harme?

I would be very loath, mother, to offend you, and therefore if I haue spoken any thing vnadvisedly, I humbly craue pardon.

Nay sonne, we haue not beene so long a sunder, to fall out at first: and therefore I will not be offended so soone, but I will enioyne you to speake plaine, and to tell me in earnest what you meant by safety.

I beseech you good mother, let me goe no further in this matter, my comming home to see you would doe me litle good if through my folly and vnapt speech I should procure your mislike.

I tell you againe it shall not bee so, and therefore neither stand with me any longer, nor feare, but tell me your meaning.

Surely, vpon your kind promise of par­don, I confesse I meant safetie from mis-in­struction in religion, whilest I was young and easy to be led by those whome I reuerenced.

Ah sir: nowe you deale plainely with me indeede, and I see as plainely the fruites of your vniuersity companie, and of your fathers care, euen to make a conceited young man of you, before you haue ripenesse of yeares to discerne in matters of such weight, as religi­on is.

Good mother, for mine vniuersitie com­panie & my fathers most louing care I blesse God, and thanke them both as I am bound: neither shall you by gods grace finde me con­ceyted o [...] head strong aboue my true know­ledge: mine harty praier is for humility, and against pride.

Sonne it is well said, and so praying assure your selfe god will heare your request [Page 4]and grant your desire: but yet for your know­ledge in diuinity I hope it is not so great, but that a poore woman that hath neithr Logicke nor Rhetorick, yet a little latine, may argue the case with you, and aske you of your newe do­ctrine that I see hath gotten some fauour in your eies: howe you dare take liking of it, and rest vpon it: since by all truely learned, it hath beene called and still is reputed and helde for very feareful and damnable heresie. Alas poore boy if thou shouldst miscarrie, thy father should answer God for thee, and what a griefe it is to me, to thinke either of the one or the other, let my teares testifie.

Deare mother, quiet your selfe, and thinke of neither: for by Gods grace there shall be no cause.

No cause? when now being but a youth in comparison, you are as full of heresie as an egge is full of meate, and so like to tast either euer or long of that liquour that first hath bene powred into you.

You are tolde it is heresie, by those that are not truely learned, as you tearme them, but ignorant, and so lead you and others awry with them: but god is able in his good time to let you see it is trueth and no heresie.

That should be a great chaunge, sonne, [Page 5]as I thinke, and because I could as willingly heare you as any, and you seme to thinke the matter plain, I pray you let me heare what you can say, and what our new masters haue taught you.

Your firme and feruent loue to me, deare mother, giues me encouragement to speake boldly vnto you what I am able & yet within tearmes of duty and reuerence euer due vnto you: but if you will charge me to speake any more, double againe vnto me your comfor­table promise of pardon in all things: for my hart trembleth for feare to offend you any waies.

Sonne, I doe double it, and assuredly pro­mise it, therefore be not afraid, your respectiue affection to me I note, & it shall not hurt you.

My answere then good mother, as neere as either memory or my note booke, which I haue also about me will serue, shall be the verie wordes of such worthy men as haue written on our side, that therby both the want of au­thoritie which is in my youth may be supplied with their credit, and the profit of reading our bookes which papists make so dangerous, bet­ter obserued by as many as are not desperatly sicke of rebellion and contumacy against the Lord. First therefore touching the name of [Page 6]heresie,Heresie. which euen now you mentioned, and I know you often heare out of their mouthes, who resort vnto you: thus hath it beene an­swered on our side many a time and often. As the accusation is bitter and grievous, yea euen such as the old father S. Ierome saith, No man ought to be patient no not in the suspit ō ther­eof: so is it not new or straunge to haue gods truth slandered wi [...]h this name: and therfore it is a good caueat, not to be carried away with the name, till we haue well examined the mat­ter, and found it to agree with the name, and rightly to be so called: which that we may do, we must knowe, that for iust proofe of heresie, two things are neccessarily required: first that it be an Errour in matter of Christian faith: se­condly, that it be stoutly and obstinatly main­tained: otherwise, an errour in Gods truth without obstinate maintenance is not an here­sie. S. Austen saith therefore, Errare possum, haereticus esse non possum; In an errour I may be, but an heretique I cannot be: meaning be­cause he intended not obstinately to maintaine an errour. Whervnto is agreeable that good saying of S. Hilary, Illis in eo quod nesciunt potest adhuc in tuto [...]sse salus sicredant, [...]lar. de Trin. 6. tibi ve­rò iam omnia ad salutem clausa sunt qui negas quod iam ignorare non potes: They for as much [Page 7]as they knovve not the truth, may haue their salvation in fafety, if aftervvard they beleeue, but all hope of health is shut vp from thee, foras­much as thou deniest that thing vvhich thou canst not choose but knowe. See, howe daunge­rous wilfull and obstinate maintenance of an error is, but neither of these two points will be found in vs, and therefore farre are wee from iustly deseruing the name of heretiques, or our true faith the name of heresie. This is an olde practise of Satan to deale thus with Gods trueth and the professours thereof. S. Paul was called before the iudges to make answer to a matter of heresie, as you may read to your great cōtentment in the Acts of the Apostles and he answered,Act. 24. that indeede according to that way which they called heresie, he wor­shipped the God of his fathers. But for all their calling and bawling it was far from beeing so, because he beleeued all things which were written in the law & the Prophets, and for that his manner of worshippe was wholly a­greeable to the scriptures, which no heresie can be. Christ our deare Sauiour for no other cause was called a Samaritane, but onely for that he was thought to haue fallen to a certaine newe religion, and to be the author of a new sect.in Apologe [...] Tertullian witnesseth that in his time euen [Page 8]this very religion which wee now professe, was called a sect and heresie, that thereby Prin­ces eares might be stopped from hearing any thing spokē or written in defence of the Chri­stians. Eusebius doth the like,4. c. 18. saying, that the religion of Christ was called, impiorum Chri­stian orum Haeresis, The heresie of the wicked Christians. Epist. ad. Tit. S. Hierome considering well the place before named in the Acts, saieth, Quod magis mirum sit, &c. And that wee may the more maruaile we may once againe read this place of the Acts of the Apostles; where wee finde that the Christian and Ecclesiastical disci­pline was euen then of wicked mē called Here­sie. Many others haue witnessed as much; ther­efore since it is no new thing, but the very cu­stome of Satan euer, I trust you see there is great cause not to be carried away with mens speaches, whose eies be blinded by the god of this worlde, but with true and sound proofes. If they cannot shew that we haue fallen away from Christ, nor from his Apostles, nor from the prophets, if we beleeue (as surely we doe) all that is written in them, & maintain nothing as necessarie to salvation, but what may be plainely shewed to be taught vs by them, how iniurious and shamfull yea fearefull a dealing it is neuerthelesse to call vs Heretiques, good [Page 6]mother consider in your selfe. Me thinkes in this place S. Austens speech somtimes to Petili­an the Donatist, is good, who said thus:contra Petil. 2. cap. 85. Vtrum nos schismatici sumus an vos, nec ego, nec tu, sed Christus interrogetur, vt indicet Ecclesiam suam: Whether of vs be scismatiques (or here­tiques (aske not of either of vs, but let Christ be asked for vs both, that he may shewe vs his owne Church: that is, let the scriptures bee searched and let them declare the trueth, which they will doe.

Sonne, for your first point, that it is not safe to iudge of things by names, because Gods truth hath bin called heresy as you haue shew­ed, and I see it plainely, I ioyne with you, and take it for a good caveat hereafter to beware: but for your second point, that therefore you should not be counted heretiques, because you say you holde nothing disagreeable to the scriprures, I cannot approoue it, because here­tiques as I haue heard, at al times haue boasted of scripture as you doe.

Good mother, I am very glad you per­ceiue how truth hath bene slandered with the name of heresie,Scripture. and therefore how fit it is in matters of salvation not to be mooued by spe­ches of men, but euer to search & seeke for due & true proofe: and for the second point, I trust [Page 10]God shall make you see it also, if it please you to goe along with me. True it is which you say you haue heard, that heretiques alleadge scripture, and you knowe that the diuell him­selfe who is as bad as any heretique, [...]. 4. alleadged scriptures: but what then? is not it therfore a safe way to cleaue to the scriptures, and only vpon them to ground our faith? yes surely: which shall appeare euen by this practise of Sa­tan being duly considered; for such is the skill of that old subtill serpent, that as he knoweth to fitte his temptations to the humour and dis­position of them whome he tempteth, so he vseth to set vpon men by those perswasions which he is most likely to seduce them by, as to Eve in paradice he promised the know­ledge of good and euill: [...]. 3. [...]od. 7. [...]. Chron. 18.11. to obstinate Pharaoh he presented lying wonders: to wicked Ahab delighting in lies he came in the month and consent of many false prophets: to the supersti­tious and hypocriticall Iewes he pretended the temple of the Lord: [...]er. 7.4. [...]ct. 19.27. & 17. [...]. to the populous & ancient heathen vniuersalitie and antiquity: & to our Sauiour the written word of God, which he thought (if any thing) would preuaile with him. So the diuell in alleadging onely scripture against our Sauiour turneth himselfe into an angell of light, and would seeme to doe that [Page 11]which is most holy in it selfe, most acceptable vnto god, most comfortable to men, most sure for their safegard and protection; which doth not di [...]credit the triall of truth in points of faith by scripture only, but rather countenance and confirme it, because it argueth the disposition and setled affection of our blessed Sauiour to­wards these sacred writings, that he made them the tower of his defence, the rocke of his safegarde, the foundation of his whole obedi­ence, & accounted nothing a ground of faith and dutie but onely scripture, and therefore that we likewise should cleaue fast to the writ­ten word of God, turning neither to the right nor left hand, but walking constantly in the o­bedience thereof. Wherefore though this alleadging of scripture be a worke of dark­nesse, both because he did mis [...]alleadge it, lea­ving out a principall part of the sentence, and so corrupting it, and also for that he did it as a lying spirit to deceiue. Yet to alledge the scrip­ture rightly, with an vpright minde to a good ende, shall euer be as the dutie of Gods people, so the shield and buckler of their defence, yea the crowne and glorie of the children of light, whereby they shall resemble their head our blessed Saviour Christ Iesus, who as you may see in the gospel gaue not ouer his holde, be­cause [Page 12]the deuill abused it, but with scripture a­gaine he answered him, and so both iustified himselfe, and confounded his aduersary, which also hath beene the manner, good mother, of the church of God at all times. As namely at the first most holy and vncorrupt Councell helde at Hierusalem by the Apostles themselues, [...]. 15. where the question debated was whether the beleeuing Gentiles could be saued onely by faith in Christ Iesus without circumcision and the obseruation of the lawe of Moses, as Paul and Barnabas affirmed and preached against certaine who came from Iudea, and taught the contrary. For the deciding whereof, in that most catholike and orthodoxall Councel S. Peter alleadged the testimony of God him­selfe who sent him to the Gentiles (Cornelius and his friendes) to preach vnto them, not the lawe of Moses, but the word of the gospel, that they might beleeue, and blessed his ministerie with happy successe, giuing vnto them the ho­ly ghost, and purifying their hearts by saith, which he calleth Gods testimony. God (saith he) bare witnesse vnto them giuing them the holy ghost &c▪ [...]. 8. [...].And S. Iames in his sentence al­leadged the written word of God both to con­firme that which S. Peter had deliuered, and to ende the controuersie: [...]. 14. Symeon (saith he) hath [Page 13]declared howe god first visited the Gentiles, & tooke of them a people vnto his name, and to this agree the wordes of the Prophets, as it is written &c. Likewise at the famous Counsell of Nice, the worthy Emperour Constantine whome god raised vp to ende the persecu­tions of his Church, and to giue it rest, saide thus to the bishops assembled there.Theod. lib. 1. cap. 7. Evangeli­cae & Apostolicae literae, &c. the writings of the Evangelists and Apostles and the sayings of the olds Prophets doe clearely instruct vs, what iudgement we ought to haue of the meaning and will of God. Therefore laying aside all contention let vs seeke out of those heauenly oracles the assoiling of our questions. And of the Arrian herericks, who in that counsel were ouerthrown, another saith thus, Explicantes sacras scripturas ill [...]s euertimus,Socr. l. 1. c. 6.by opening and expounding the holy scriptures we overthrowe them. The like rule was follow­ed at the counsell helde at Constantinople, a­gainst the hereticke Macedonius, that denied the divinitie of the holy ghost: neuer mooue question hereof, saith Athanasius,ad Serapion. but learne of the holy scriptures, for the onely proofes that you shall there finde are sufficient. And in another place the same father saith, Scrip­turae sufficiunt adveritatis instructionem siue [Page 14]institutionem: [...]ra Gen [...]es [...]l Idola. the scriptures are sufficient to instruct vs in the trueth: Marke I pray you the word Sufficiunt. In the other two Coun­cels also of Ephesus and Chalcedon, [...]vagrius. we read of the same course: all things were concluded by the wordes of the Evangelists and Apostles. The auncient father Origen saith,Rom. lib. 10.16. Vnde quàm propè periculis illi sunt, &c. See and consider in what daunger they be, that haue no care to read the holy scriptures, for by the same scrip­tures onely the iudgement of this triall must be allowed.ierom. hom. 1. And in another place, Necesse est no­bis scripturas sanctas in testimonium vocare, sensus quippe nostri & enarrationes sine iis testibus non habent fidem. VVe must needes call to witnesse the holy scriptures, for our iudge­ments and expositions without those witnesses carry no credit: a notable saying if it please you to marke it. And with him S. Austen fully a­greeth, when he saith, [...] Na [...]. & Grat. [...]. Solis Canonicis sciptu­ris sine vlla recusatione consensum debeo. One­ly to the Canonicall scriptures do I owe my con­sent without gainsaying. The same father a­gaine, when he disputed against Petilian the Donatist, [...]c Vnit. Ec­ [...]les. c. 3. said, Let not these vvordes be heard betweene vs I say, or you say, but let vs rather speake in this wise, thus saith the Lord. Aufe­rantur de medio chartae nostrae, procedat in me­dium [Page 15]codex dei, contra li [...]. P [...] l. 3 c. 6. Away with our bookes and let Gods booke come in place. Siue enim de Christo, siue de Ecclesia siue de quacun (que) aliâre, quae per­tinet adfidem vitam (que) nostram, non dicamsi nos, &c. For whether it be of Christ, or of his Church or of any thing els what soeuer pertai­ning either to our life or to our faith, I will not say if I my selfe, but if an angel from heauen shall teach vs otherwise then we haue receiued in the bookes of the law and in the gospel, holde him accursed. This is the proofe (saith he a­gaine) quae nec falli, nec fallere potest, de peccat. m [...] & remist. l. 1. c. 2 [...]. which can neither deceiue, nor be deceiued. To the verie same effect speake all the fathers I assure you, if it were needfull to repeat their wordes. I be­seech you (saith S Chrisostom) weigh not what this man or that thinketh, in 2. Cor. ho [...] [...]. but touching all things search the scriptures. S. Hierom saith, Quod de scripturis autoritatem non habet, ea­dem [...]acilitate contemnitur qua probatur, in 23. Mat. that which is not warranted by the scriptures, may as easily be contemned as alleadged. And so the rest of the fathers particularly euery one: and therefore (good Mother) weigh it and note it, that albeit both heretiques & deuills abuse the scriptures by alleadging them to euill endes, yet is it the true way and the onely way to be re­solued by, and to finde rest for our consciences [Page 16]in all matter of controuersie, touching either faith or manners, so taken, so taught, so held by Christ, by his Apostles, and by all the godly fa­thers, and worthy approoued Councels in the world.

I must confesse that if the scriptures bee rightly applyed, they are indeede the sure foun­dation, that ought to be stood vpon; but howe shall that appeare, that you apply them rightly, more then those whome you acknowledge heretiques, which likewise haue alleadged them.

Good mother, giue me leaue to make make much of that which I gaine from you in this conference, and to recken it vp as deere vnto my verie soule, for the duty I owe you, and for the desire I haue, that the trueth may be revealed vnto you. This therefore now you see and confesse, that although all the hereticks in the world, and all the diuels in hell should al­ledge scripture, and abuse it, yet hath it not bin giuen of God in vaine, but serueth as a sure ground of our faith and actions, euery thing beeing alowable that is consonant vnto it, and that alwaies faultie, which is contrarie vnto it: and therefore that we ought not to be beaten from it, by any deuise of Satan, but stedfastly to stick vnto it, and euer to depend vpon it, as the [Page 17]only sure ancher of our soules, in like manner as all those worthy men and Councels before mentioned haue done. For what quietnes to my minde like to this? Thou Lord hast comman­ded me thus to beleeue and thus to doe, there­fore I so beleeve and so doe. Interpretatio [...] of scripture. Only you sticke nowe at the right application of them, and aske howe shall you know that? Surely mother, you shall know it euen to your full contentment if you will doe as others before you godly and holy persons both men & women haue done.lib. 83. quaest. [...] Saint Austen saith, Solet circumstantia Scriptu­rarum illuminare sententiam, The circum­stance of the scriptures is vvout to giue light and open the meaning thereof. in Esai. c. 19 Saint Hierome saith, Moris est scripturarum obscuris manife­sta subnectere, Its the manner of the scrip­tures after harde thinges to ioyne other things that be plaine. Tertullian saith, Opertet secundum plura intelligi pauciora, The fewer things must be expounded by the moe. Hil. de Trin. 9. S. Hilary saith, Intelligentia dictorum ex causa dicendi fumenda est, the vnderstanding of things spo­kē must be taken frō the cause of speaking thē, expraepositis & consequētibus, by things going before and following after. S, Cyril saith,Cyr. Th [...]s. l. [...] c. 2. when­soeuer we woulde vnderstande any place of scripture, we must consider three things, the time [Page 18]when it was written; the person that writ, and to whome, or of whom, and the matter it selfe. Many such good rules haue the fathers which as you see, greatly help in the thing you desire, and which if we vse, no doubt we shall finde as they found: then haue we the gratious promise of gods holy spirit if we aske it; and what a sure guide is that? the performance of which pro­mise see in the Gospell:c. 24. then opened he their vnderstanding that they might vnderstand the scriptures. See it in that good woman Ly­dia the purple seller, [...]. 16. whose heart was also o­pened. This blessed gift doth the Apostle think of, when he wisheth to the Ephesians the spirit of wisdome and revelation that the eyes of their vnderstanding might be opened, [...]hes. 1.17. & light­ned that they might knowe, &c. So to the Phi­lippians and to the Colossians; and of this spea­keth Elihu in the booke of Iob, [...]lip. 1.9. [...]lost. 1.9. There is a spi­rit in man but the inspiration of the almighty giueth vnderstanding. Iob 32.8. This did king Dauid knowe, and therefore asked this heauenly gift by earnest prayer, often saying, Teach me O Lord, teach me thy statutes, teach me thy waies, open mine eyes that I may beholde the wonder­full things in thy lawe. Origen saith, Orandus est Deus vt aperiat librum obsignatum, we must beseech God by prayer to open the booke that is [Page 19]sealed The Lord is no respect of persons, but as he hath done, he will doe, and heare the de­sires of his children that wish to know his will. This is the way, mother, this is the way that neuer failed any who vsed it, neither will it faile you. But you shall see by it the true and right applying of the scriptures, howsoeuer others a­buse and mis-construe them. In a worde there­fore marke I beseech you, that we doe not af­firme all cases of doubt to be by manifest and open wordes plainely expressed in scripture, for so there should neede no exposition, but we say and affirme that there is no case in religion necessarie to Gods worship or mans salvation so darke and doubtful, but it may necessarily be either prooued or disprooued by true collecti­on and conference in scripture.

Sonne, I marke your speech well and your words fall not to the ground, yet I hope you will confesse that our men doe well in re­garding the doctours as they doe.

Surely mother, I doe confesse the do­ctours of the Church worthy of more regard then is giuen them sometimes by Romish Ca­tholickes.Doctoures. And you see by my alleadging of them that I greatly regard them. But seeing you haue mentioned this matter I doe hartely intreat you to marke a fewe things in that be­halfe. [Page 20]First that they are not Domini sedduces nostri, Not our Lords but our leaders. And ther­fore S. Augustin saith, Other writers or fathers (besides the holy scriptures) I read in this sort, that be their learning or holinesse neuer so great, I wil not thinke it true because they haue thought so, but because they are able to per­swade me so either by Canonicall writers, or els by some likely reason. Likewise againe, This kind of writings (meaning the holy doctoures) must be reade not with necessitie to beleeue each thing, but with libertie to iudge each thing. For we may not consent to the bishops, notwithstanding they be Catholike, [...]nit. Eccl. c. if they iudge contrarie to the holy Canonicall scrip­tures. This is the right credit of holy fathers; they are not the trueth of God it selfe, but one­ly witnesses vnto the trueth: no more haue they they thēselues euer desired, no lesse ought we euer to giue them. Heare I pray you the words of the same father againe, we receiue not the disputations or writings of any men be they neuer so Catholicke or praise-worthy,Fortunat. [...]t. 111. as we receiue the Canonicall scriptures, but that sauing their reuerence we may well reprooue or refuse some things in their writings, if it happen we finde they haue otherwise though then the trueth may beare them out: such am I in [Page 21]the writings of others, and such would I wish others to be in mine. He writeth to S. Hierom againe to the same effect Non puto frater, ep. 19. &c. My brother I doe not thinke you would haue vs so to read your bookes as if they were written by the Apostles and Prophets. To the like purpose writeth Tertullian of himselfe and the rest, wherein their holy modestie is worthy great praise for euer, they tooke not vpon them to be Lords but leaders: and to that ende the Lord hath giuen thē as excellent lights to his church. So of Counsels S. Austen telleth vs, that the former are reiected by the later, &c. Likewise Panormitan saith, vve ought to giue more cre­dit to on lay man, then to an whole councell and to the Pope, if he bring better authority and more reason. This is my first obseruatiō in this matter of the doctours. My secōd is this which I humbly pray you to marke, that as scriptures haue beene abused by heretiques, so haue fa­thers, and therefore if we must giue ouer the one for mis-applyings, so must we the other al­so for the same reason. The Arrian here­tiques alleadged Origens bookes for their de­fence and safegard:Socr. l. 4. c. Concil. Ch act. 2. p. 732 the heretique Eutiches saide, I haue read the writings of the father Saint Cyprian, as also of other holy wri­ters, and of the holy father Saint Athanasius. [Page 22]Another of his sect cryed, this is my faith ac­cording to the exposition of 318 fathers. The Nestorian heretiques alleadged the Counsel of Nice:p. [...]7. and not to weary you with many, Di­oscorus the heretique cried out in the open Councell of Chalcedon, [...] 1. p. 767. Ego habeo testimonia sanctorum patrum, I haue the testimonies of the holy fathers, Athanasius, Gregory, Cyrill, I varie not from them in any point: I am thrown forth and banished with the fathers, I defend the fathers doctrine, I haue their iudgement vttered not by chaunce or vnaduisedly, but re­maining expressed in their bookes. Therefore you see, good mother, that heretiques haue cried as well fathers, fathers as scriptures, scrip­tures, and yet neither the one nor the other for this cause to be reiected. My third obseruation might be of counterfeit and young yesterday fathers alleadged by papists, and of small credit or reuerence giuen to fathers by them that boast thus of fathers when they please, where­of I assure you we haue notable examples, with many things moe, but that I feare to be trouble­some vnto you.

Yet sonne, seeing our faith was long be­fore yours, me thinks the fathers should rather make for vs then for you.

And why say you not so of the scriptures [Page 23]which were many yeares before any of the fa­thers? Surely if your faith were before ours,Old faith. as well scriptures as fathers would giue on your side, and indeed both would make for you,New faith. the fathers desiring to holde nothing but that they iudged agreeable to scripture, which euer they make the rule and ground of faith and trueth, and not their own writings, as you haue seene. But good Mother they abuse you and many moe, that tell you your faith (that is, as nowe you meane, the Romish faith) was before ours: for I assure you it is not so, but very newe and younge in comparison of ours.

What? our faith newe, Sonne, & yours old? Alas I see these newe teachers haue possest you mightily, & you are so carried away with them, that they are able to make you beleeue any thing. Why tell me the crowe is white or the snowe is blacke.

Good Mother, the Lord hath mooued your heart to heare me speake who am yours and of you. If I speake amisse, as you thinke, and so as you cannot consent vnto me & with me, leaue we it both to the working power of a mighty God, who in further time can giue fur­ther light and vnderstanding to his children that humbly craue it, and are not lifted vp with an high hand to withstand his offered grace. [Page 24]Onely according to this motherly loue that you haue began to shew me, vouchsafe to here me still, vpon what groundes I haue setled my selfe, and with what proofe I am mooued to thinke as I doe.

Surely sonne, I coulde not abide or in­dure to heare any other once speake of such a straunge thing as this, but say you on what you list, you are my childe.

I doe verely beleeue it seemeth most straunge to you and to many moe of your side, to heare that your religion is newe and ours olde. Yet I doubt not but to make it e­vidently apparent vnto you and all whosoe­uer shall without preiudice duly consider my allegations and proofe. But first I must inter­pret my selfe in a worde or two what I meane by your faith and religion. I pray you therefore when I speake of your Romish reli­gion thinke not that I meane the whole do­ctrine and all the articles of faith and religion taught and professed by the Papists, but onely those points of doctrine wherein they differ from vs. For in generall they hold the doctrine of the lawe and tenne commandements as we doe, sauing that they leaue out the second com­mandement which forbiddeth the worship­ping of Idols and Images, making two of the [Page 25]tenth: they professe also the summe of the gos­pell, at least in generalitie and in wordes, to wit, that Christ Iesus perfect God and perfect man hath wrought our full redemption, and by the blood of his crosse and pretious death, & prrfect obedience hath deliuered vs from eternall death, the fierch and euerlasting wrath of God, the due desert of our transgressions, and pur­chased for vs euerlasting peace and blisse: they maintaine also and professe in wordes as we also doe the three creedes, the Nicene, the A­thanasian, and the Apostolike creede, wherein is comprised the summe of our faith and the doctrine we professe, they acknowledge that most excellent forme and paterne of prayer taught vs in the gospel by our Sauiour, and vse it, and many other good and godly prayers which we also vse, euen all those vvelneere in our common liturgie except a very fevve for our most gratious Queene &. sauing that they vse thē in latin, vve in english that all may vnderstand and say amen. Wherefore vvhen I say that your religion is nevv, meane not generally, nor of the things before rehearsed, but only in respect of certē other articles and points of religion maintained by Romish catholikes, as namely, 1. that the traditiōs of the church are of equall authority vvi [...]h the vvorde of god [Page 26]to be embraced with like reuerence and deuo­tion. 2. that the vulgar latin translation com­monly called Hieromes is onely authenticall▪ 3. that the imputation of Christs righteous­nes and obedience to the faithfull is a fantasie without ground in Gods word. 4. that the bread in the sacrament of the Eucharist tran­substantiated into the body of Christ is to be adored. 5. that the faithfull are able to keepe the whole lawe of God. 6. that the Pope is Christs generall vicar vpon earth, hauing abso­lute power to ratifie or disanull all manner of decrees and ordinances, and to dispense with the expresse and moral precepts of God at his pleasure. 7. That the whole Church without him can neither enact nor infringe any lawe ecclesiasticall, nor interpret any scripture. 8. that the holy scriptures ought not to be tran­slated into any vulgar tongue or reade of the lay people. 9. that the sacrament of the Lords supper is to be administred onely in bread and not in wine,Quia sapor possit genera­te suspitionem quòd esset ibi [...]inum. least as the Sorbonists at Paris say, the people should smell it to be wine and so doubt of transubstātiatiō. 10. that good works are meritorious, and that by them we are iu­stified in the sight of God. 11. that the soules of the faithfull dying before perfect repentance, suffer the torments of purgatory. 12. that pray­ers [Page 27]are to be made in an vnknowen tongue, & such like: of al which and the rest, wherein they disagree from vs, I say they are newe and ye­sterday opinions in comparison of the faith which we hold consonant to the holy scrip­tures, and those famous ancient creeds before mentioned. And therefore now to proceede to the declaration of that which I haue vnder­taken touching the noueltie of your faith. Thus good Mother, haue our men written & at this day teach: that it goeth not with Religi­on as it doth with the statutes of the realme, & iudgements at common law, where the later is thought to be the better: but in religion the first and eldest is best. Therefore they euer re­member that golden saying of Tertullian, that is true which was first, that is first, which was from the beginning, and that was from the be­ginning which was deliuered by the Apostles, but our faith is that was deliuered by the Apo­stles yours is not, therfore ours is frō the begin­ning, and so first, yours not, and therefore later. Now that ours is that which was deliuered by the Apostles they prooue it thus. Another an­cient father saith, That which the Apostles preached and deliuered to the world by prea­ching,Irenaeus. they afterward by the will of God com­mitted to writing, that for euer it might be the [Page 28]foundation and ground of faith. Wherevpon it followeth, that which the Apostles preached is the old, auncient, Catholike and Apostolike saith, but that which they haue written is that which they preached: so saith this father; ther­fore that which is written is the true auncient Catholike, and Apostolike faith, & that is ours. For, as I haue saide, we hold nothing as neces­sarie to salvation but that which is truly taught vs out of these written scriptures. Therefore our faith is that which was deliuered by the Apostles, your faith is not that which is writ­ten. For your men wil not be tried by the scrip­tures onely, as knowing that many things they hold haue no warrant there, but haue deuised vnwritten traditions, therefore yours is not that which was deliueeed by the Apostles, and not the old faith, but a late newe faith devised by men.

VVhy? that which was deliuered by tradition,Tradition. was deliuered by the Apostles as wel as that which they wrot.

True Mother, if it could as soundly ap­peare vnto vs what they deliuered, as it doth by their writings what they preached But this father that I named vnto you, saith, they wrot that which they deliuered, and they wrote it by the will of God as not trusting tradition vn­written, [Page 29]and they wrote it to be for euer the ground of our faith, noting that vnwritten tra­dition may not be the ground, because it is vn­certain and full of imperfection as I could shewe you, if we were to speake of that mat­ter. Therefore seeing this which is written is certainly and assuredly that which they deli­uered, and we hold nothing but that which is agreeable to this, which is written, you see it is most plaine, that we holde nothing but that which the Apostles themselues deliuered, and so our faith the old faith which was from the beginning and first.

Surely if you holde nothing but that which is written, it is certaine that that which was written was deliuered by the A­postles, and so it followeth that you hold no­thing but that which was deliuered by the Apostles and Prophets, and therfore your faith olde indeede and not to be reiected. And for tradition, although we may be told that this and that was deliuered by the Apostles and their successours, and so by them to theirs againe to this day, yet I must needes confesse that is not so manifest and plaine as which is written, neither doth it yeeld such content­ment to my conscience. But I can not tell what to say it is a sure and steadfast way to [Page 30]trust to that which is written, rather then to that which is reported, and yet I am loath [...]o offend, you shal giue me leaue to pause & think more of it.

Yea deere Mother, and with the hart of a dutifull child I say the father of our Lord Ie­sus Christ lighten the eyes of your vnderstan­ding in all things to the glory of his great name and your eternall comfort: but be you assured in this that we hold nothing as needfull to our saluation, but that which is written in expresse wordes, or by sure and plaine collection, and therefore make the consequence as the Lord shall direct you.

Howe then commeth it to passe that your religion is still called new, new?

Even as I told you before, it is one of Sa­tans trickes to discredit trueth, and hath in all times beene vsed of him. But as then your selfe collected by that which I alleadged, that it is not safe to be lead by tearmes and names with­out due considering howe iustly and truely they are giuen, so I beseech you do here again, and be not mooued with the name: for questi­onles there can nothing be more spitefully spo­ken against the religion of God, then to accuse it of noueltie, as a matter lately found out. For as there can be no change in God himselfe, so [Page 31]ought there be no change in his religion Yet still I say, Satan hath taken this course euen from the beginning to call trueth newe, which indeede is not onely of greatest antiquitie▪ but also frō euerlasting. That vngratious & blood thirstie Haman, when he sought to procure the king Assuerus his dspleasure against the Iewes, vsed this slaunder against them of no­veltie, telling the king that he had in his domi­on a kinde of people that vsed certaine newe lawes of their own &c.Act. 1 [...]. Whē Paul also began first to preach and expound the Gospel at Athens, he was called a tidings-bringer of new Gods, that is, of a newe religion: for said the A­thenians, may we not knowe of thee what newe doctrine this is▪ Origen again telleth vs of Cel­sus, that when he wrot of set purpofe against Christ▪ to the ende he might scornefully scosse at the gospell, he accused it of noueltie and said:Orig. con [...]a C [...]lsum. vvhat hath God after so many ages now at last bethought himselfe? whose vile blasphemies that auncient father in his bookes written a­gainst him answereth. Eusebius also saith, that the Christian religion from the beginnnig for verie spite was called new and straunge,Euseb. l. 1▪ c. 4. [...] Sentence was giuen of condemnation that S. Audrewe should be crucified for teaching and enterprising a newe sect and taking away [Page 32]the religion of their Gods. Shall we then bee mooued with this tearme, and carried away with this name? No, God forbid. These exam­ples are a faire warning for vs to take heede of that lightnesse and rashnesse. Let the deuil rage against trueth with what names God shall suffer him, and his members, yet this shall euer stand, that the doctrine of the Church is elder then any Idolatrie or superstition of the Gen­tiles, that the doctrine of the Gospell was prea­ched in Paradise by God himselfe, saying, The seede of the vvoman shall bruise the serpent [...] head. That the writings of Moses are elder the any writings of the Gentiles, the doctrine of the Apostles elder then Popery or any other heresie, and that we at this day hold nothing, as I haue often said, but what appeareth out of the Apostles owne writings alowed both by vs and our aduersaries to be their vvritinges, to be their ovvne doctrine deliuered to the Church to be beleeued, and for men and vvo­men to be saued by.

Surely I see still it is not safe to be carri­ed away vvith names, and to beleeue all to be nevve, vvhich is called so, or all olde vvhich is named olde: for so vve may be deceiued. But yet in shevve of the vvorlde ours hath had a longer continuance then yours.

I must needes here once againe remem­ber you what I meane by your religion, to wit those pointes of doctrine onely wherein you differ from vs. And then I answer, first that your religion euen in shewe of the world hath not had a longer continuance then ours, espe­cially for the principall points whereon wee stand, as namely, 1. the articles of our Creede which is a briefe and summe of catholik faith, as Athanasius plainely witnesseth,Symbol Athanas. Haee est fides Catholica, and the Councell of Trent confes­seth. 1. the acknowledgment of gods diuine law, and the worshipping of god according to that law. 3. the doctrine of repentance frō dead workes and of faith in Iesus Christ for the re­mission of sinne. 4 the doctrine of the Sacra­ments, Baptisme, and the Lords supper, which are the fundamentall points of out faith and re­ligion, and the rocke whereon we build our soules and Church, and without controuersie of greater antiquity then those points of do­ctrine which we call popery. Besides I answer, although your religion in shew of the world, were more ancient then ours, yet that ought to be no disparagement to ours, or aduācemēt to yours: for god afflicteth his church as pleaseth him, & maketh vs see that it is like the moone whervnto it is compared, now growing, now [Page 34]ful, now waining, we may not mesure truth by worldly coūtenāce, but by that rule which ne­uer faileth, the word of God, and if our faith be that which there is taught & warrāted, the you haue heard which is the old true Catholik faith indeed and therfore to be receiued, helde and defended, though for a thousand yeares the Lord hath made it a straunger in this or that place to punish thereby the sinnes of a king­dome or countrie. Vetus consuetudo non prae­iudicat veritate, Olde custome doth not preiu­dice the truth: saith good S. Austen, Nec dici debet, [...]ug. De Ciuit. l. 10. c. 32. quare modò? quare sero? quoniam mit­tentis consilium non est humauo ingenio peni­trabile: Neither may we say, why commeth it now? (Good Mother marke it) why commeth it so late? for the councell of God that sent it is vnsearchable to the wisdome of man. Thus speake the Papists in these daies: where was your religion before Luther? where hath it beene this many hundred yeares? had God no Church till now? &c. But S. Austen telleth thē they speake not well, they ought not to say so: for Gods councell is known to himselfe, and we cannot reach vnto it. Religionis autoritas non est tempore estimanaa sed numine, nec quo die, sedquid colere caeperis iutueri convenit: quodenim verum est, serum non est. The au­tority [Page 35]of religion must be weighed by god not by time, & we must cōsider not vpon what day, but vvhat thing we began to worship, the thing that is true is neuer to late. The Iesuits tell vs wonders of their conuerting the Indians and other people to the Romish faith, and woulde they like that those nations should say where hath this religion beene all this while? woulde they not say as Arnobius saith, that which is true should euer be vvelcome, Arnob. co [...] Gen [...] howe long soeuer the time of darkenesse hath beene? Why doe they then teach any to stand vpon such questi­ons against the Gospel nowe preached? Our Sauiour saith, If I speake the trueth vvhy doe you not beleeue me? and that is the good issue indeede to consider the matter whether it bee true or no: which is euer found by the weight of the sanctuary, the word of God. Certenly we teach no false religion but offer the trueth for issue, praying that if it be found true by the touchstone mentioned, it may be entertained, and so much the more hartely, by how much shee hath beene long from home. For so wee deale with our friendes, and doe not vtterly denie them if they haue beene long away. Cer­tenly we haue planted no newe religion, but renewed the olde (I meane in respect of certen pointes corrupted by your men) that was vn­doubtedly [Page 36]founded and vsed by the Apostles of Christ, and other holy fathers in the primi­tiue Church, & of this long late time by meane of the multitude of Romish traditions and va­nities hath beene drowned with traditions & fantasies though painted with colour of anti­quity and continuance, yet are new, vaine, and naught.

I cannot deny sonne, but it is true that you say, there may be vetustas erroris, an anti­quity of error (for you know I haue some latin, not yet forgotten) and [...]here may be a late be­ginning of truth in some particular place, but it followeth not that either the error is truth be­cause it hath bin continued long, or the trueth error because in that place it was receiued but lately: I like not this kind of reasoning whosoe­uer vseth it, for it is not sound neither stateth the conscience.

Good mother, I know well you vnder­stand the latin tongue, and therefore haue I re­peated many testimonies in latin, to giue you your due praise, this ability being not ordinary in women. And what you say, I thanke God hartely for, praying you to consider that there be men on your side which so reason, and so say: Popery hath bin in england so long, there­fore it is truth: and the gospel was reuiued but [Page 37]of late, therfore it is error, heresy, apostasie, and what not? Surely mother you haue touched the quick, such arguing is loose and staieth not the cō [...]cience, it followeth not, but is very chil­dish. Men may be called at the eleuenth houre, & yet as truly called as they who were brought into the vineyard at the very first, and as fully shall be regarded, if they come then. The Lord may doe with his own as pleaseth him.

Yea but what say you sonne to our bap­tisme? for that is a matter of moment: we were all baptised into the Romish faith, and vowed at the font to continue in the same. Howe then shall we start from it without breaking our vow and offending both god and man?

In what fait [...] baptized.S. Deare mother, here first I wish a lattise window in my breast, that the ioy of my heart for these your questions so fit and pertinent, & I hope, profitable, might appeare vnto you: for they lead vs as it were by the hand to the con­sideration of those things which may fully sa­tisfie any Christian heart. And who can tell what the Lord of mercy wil doe, who willeth not he death of a sinner, but would haue al mē saued & come to the knowledge of the trueth. The Lord Iesus Christ, who is the true sheap­heard samp; bishop of our soules, giue a blessing to our conference. Then to your doubt so [Page 38]well and to so good purpose moued I answere thus: God forbid that either all or any of vs had beene baptized into the Romish faith. You are deceiued and those cursed charmers that whis­per such things to Gods people, and cast such stumbling blockes before their eyes to turne thē out of the right way, shall answer the Lord for so doing. You are taught and told that all those who were baptised in those times when popery was receiued by the realme of England were baptized into the Romish faith, which is not so: wherein appeared the great mercy and goodnesse of God in preseruing the Sacrament of entrance and admission into Gods Church pure and sound concerning the substance of it, euen in the greatest darkenesse and authority of popery. This therefore I pray you vnder­stand that we were all baptized in the time of popery into the same faith which nowe wee hold, and baptize children in, that is, into the faith of the 12. articles; for thus said the priest then in latin, Credis in deum patrem, &c. as the minister doth now in English, Doest thou be­leeve in God the father almighty &c. And the godfathers and godmothers answered then in the name of the child, Credo, as we doe nowe answere, All this I stedfastly beleeve. Then said the priest in latin againe, as the minister [Page 39]do [...]h nowe in english, wil [...] thou be baptized in this faith? they answered then for the childe, volo, we nowe, that is my desire. Then tooke the p [...]st water and saide in la [...]in, Ego baptizo te in nomine [...]atris, &c. we say the same in en­g [...], I baptize thee in the name of the father, the sonne, and the holy ghost. And this beeing the substance of baptisme, see howe the Lord preserued it euen then pure and holy, and all one was baptisme then and nowe concerning substance. Wilt thou be baptized in this faith, was not meant of the errour of the time, but of this faith now rehearsed contained in the 12. articles, which, except then it was some other because it was latin, and nowe is saide in Eng­lish, we see plainely they were then baptized in the same faith with vs, and that was a right true Catholicke faith, and not the Romish er­rours, that then ruled and were receiued of the state. Our godfathers also holding the same faith, to wit, of the tvvelue articles, and vve be­ing christened in the faith of our godfathers & godmothers, so long as vve hold and continue in this our creede, vve continue in the same faith: if our godfathers and godmothers decei­ued by the time, held any other points in deede and trueth not agreeing vvith these 12. articles, vve ansvver that the sacrament of our baptis­me [Page 40]doth not binde vs in all points to the opini­ons of them who baptised vs, but in the faith of him in whose name we were baptised, and to the doctrine of the 12. articles then propoun­ded vnto vs: for, as if a man were christened of an heretique, the baptisme notwithstanding were good, and the partie baptised not bound to hold that heresie: so if our godfathers o [...] fa­thers which christened vs were taught any thing not consonant to Christian doctrine, nei­ther is our baptisme worse for that, nor we bound to follow them in all points, especially beeing caried away vnwittingly by subtill de­ceiuers from the truth. Thus good mother, is your doubt truely answered, and your heart, I trust, assured, that by receiuing this faith novv established through her Maiesties most blessed hand in England, you shall not depart from your vovve made at the some, but keepe it, nor svvarue from your faith vvherein you vvere baptized, and vvhich your godfathers and godmothers helde, but cleaue fast vnto it to Gods great glorie, and your ovvn soules health.

Truely sonne, you haue more satisfied me, then I thought in this matter any man li­uing could haue done. And I see there is great mistaking in many matters for vvant of loue [Page 41]one to endure talke with another. Whilest I liue therefore, I will neuer refuse conference, as I haue done: and I wish with all mine heart that others whome I knowe woulde doe the like.

Yea mother but the enemie knowing the good hereof, and what a fall his kingdome may thus take, laboureth to stop that willing­nes in men and womē trained to their errors, by taking othes of them not to doe it, & threatning all manner of danger to thē if they doe it; and you would blesse your selfe to heare what grosse praises they vtter of ignorance and sim­ple obedience without ground or reason, say­ing it belongeth no more to you or any other to aske a reason of their teachings, then it doth to the horse to know why his master turneth his head this way or that.

Mary God forbidde. It is but a slaun­der I hope, as we are to light of beleefe on both sides.

Truely Mother, no slaunder, nor mean mans doctrine, but a great Cardinall of Rome, although in this grosly carnall, the Cardinall Cusanus. The place is knowen and cannot be denied. Excitationum, lib. 6. pag. 547. I shall shewe you his wordes if I can borrowe the booke.

There is a story as I remember in the olde testament of one that would condition to haue their right eies, if he made peace with them. Surely this is to take our right eies from vs, not to suffer vs to vse reason, and to aske for a satisfaction where we doubt.

True it is, Mother; It was Naash the Am­monite that so answered the men of Iabesh Gi­lead:1. Sam. c. 11.2. and you most rightly apply it: full easie was it to rule and ouer rule, to mocke and a­buse the strong Sampson, when once they had put out both his eies. To tell vs that ignorance is the mother of deuotion, when the Councell saith it is the mother of errour: to tell vs, that pearles may not be cast before swine, the peo­ple may not haue the scriptures in english, whē it is spoken to all,Ioh. 5. Search the scriptures: to tell vs we will become heretiques, if we meddle with the scriptures, when Christ saith you erre because you know not the scriptures: surely this is not to wish vs to see, but to wish & end [...]uour both to make and keepe vs blinde But I trust the god of all mercie and goodnesse, will both giue sight, and keepe sight in despite of all their fetching pollicies.

To returne then where we left, you say our fathers held the faith of the 12. articles, and were baptized in the same as we also are, so [Page 43]that we forsake not their faith, or the faith of our baptisme, if we embrace the gospell nowe preached, because in nothing it is contrarie to these articles: notwithstanding you say they were happely touched with some errours of the time. I pray you therefore what shall we say of them? were they damned or saued: if they were damned all, why may not we doe as they did, and hope of like mercy, god being the same still, and as rich in goodnesse and grace, as euer.

Your question containeth two points, one of the saluation or damnation of our fa­thers, another of the imitation of them.what is beco [...] of our father In both which I shall indeauour to giue you a tru answer. And touching the first I say, we ought not to sit in iudgement vpon our fathers, for God was able to preserue them euen in that darke time wherein they liued, as he preserued the bush in the middest of the flame, Daniel in the Lyons den, the three children in the fur­nace, and the Israelites in the red sea: for all these were in mans eye subiect to daunger, and yet by a powerfull hand of an omnipotent god saued. And by the manifolde graces of god vouchsafed vnro our fathers, we may comfor­tably hope that almighty God was willing al­so to preserue thē vnto an euerlasting inheri­tance [Page 44]and did that which he was able to doe vnto them: for they were good mē and good women in their times, charitable and merciful, iust and true in their dealings, their honest word was better then many a mans bond, nowe: they brought vp their children in ho­nest labour, not in idlenesse and vanitie: they were giuen to hospitalitie, they hated pride & loued plainnes, they loued the Church & went duly vnto it: in a worde, as one saith of them, though they had, minùs scientiae, lesse know­ledge, yet they had plus conscientiae, more con­science. wherfore that god that thus wrought in them by his guiding grace, I may well and cheerefully hope was further also good vnto them, and had mercy vpon them, pulling them out of the fire, as S. Iude saith: yea I haue heard of some that in those darke times deliuered to their children some little treatises of Wickleff, and badde them keepe them secret and yet reade them and marke them, which argued a touch in their hearts more then the worlde saw, or they had strength and boldnesse pub­likely to make shewe of. One mother I coulde name to you, that albeit shee did as the time then was, yet hadde shee an olde Psalter in english, and before her chil­dren, beeing younge would often reade on it, [Page 45]giuing them admonition in diuers points, ac­cording to her motherly care, and by name when shee came to those wordes, They haue eies and see not, feete haue they and goe not, hands and handle not, noses and smell not, nei­ther is there any breath in their mouthes: cur­sed are all they that make them, and so are all they that put their trust in them. Marke chil­dren (would shee say) what those Images you see in the Churches bee: they cannot see, goe, handle, or smell, they haue no life, and there­fore we may not worship or trust in them, they are cursed that make them as you heare, and no doubt but there will come a time when they will bee taken away. By which we plainely see there was more in many of our good forefathers (for doe you thinke god was the god onely of this good woman?) more I say then the course of time yeelded thē, and therefore great testimonies that god sa­ued them euen in the furnace and in the Ly­ons denne, that is, in the darke time, and time of daunger. Therefore farre be it from vs to iudge of them otherwise then well. They liue with the Lord God I most comfortably hope.

This reuerēt cōceit of your elders sonne, I trust is a signe of Gods grace in you, and [Page 46]your hope is grounded vpon good presump­tions. But why then may not wee nowe fol­low their course as I said, & hope of like mer­cy also with them.

why we may not imitate [...]r forefathersS. Deare mother, let not me answere you, but heare and weigh with your selfe what S. Cyprian that learned and holy father answe­reth, whose words are these: (I know you vnderstand them:) Ignosci potuit simpliciter erranti, post inspirationem verò & revelatio­nem factam, qui in eo quo errauerat, perseuerat sine veniâ ignorantiae peccat, praesumptione e­nim at que obstinatione superatur.

Me thinks I vnderstand this sentence to be thus much in english; To one that of simpli­city erreth, pardon may be giuen: but who so af­ter knowledge reuealed and gratiously offered, continueth in his errour, that man or that wo­man sinneth without hope of pardon for their ignorance, for he or shee is wholly carried away vvith presumption and obstinacie. Which sentēce if it be that godly fathers, surely it ought to be well weighed of al that mean not to be so ouercome. And for my part I doe thinke and will thinke of it.

Surely mother they are his very wordes, and, for the sence, well translated by you. And blessed be God for your good taking of these [Page 47]graue speeches of great lights and worthy tea­chers in their times. The wordes are in his 62. epistle, as I shall shewe you when I come to the booke. And since my wordes finde com­fortable fauour with you, let me, I pray; fur­ther shew you how Satan hath alwaies vsed to deceiue men by these meanes, and howe God hath giuen councell to the contrary, Cresconi­us the heretique said to S. Augustin, Our fa­thers receiued this of their fathers before thē. And S. Augustin answered him, sed errantes ab errantibus, but them men deceiued, receiued it of men that were deceiued before them. Even as the Iewes at this day receued of their fathers, and their fathers likewise receiued it before them of their fathers, and so from father to fa­ther since the suffering of Christ, which is now almost 1567 yeares, that Christ did not rise a­gaine, but that his disciples came whilest the watchmen slept, & stole his body away. Now is this wicked falshood true, because by traditi­on from father to sonne it hath beene conti­nued and taught amongst the Ievves for so many yeres? god forbid. We beleeue the con­trary as an article of our faith: and therefore you see this argument from our forefathers is dangerous and may carrie vs into great errors if vve take not heede. This notable ansvvere of [Page 48]S. Augustin and this worthy example woulde neuer be forgotten. Another great heretique called Eutiches, that denied the humanity of our Sauiour, beeing conuented for it in the Councell of Chalcedon, fled likewise to this defence and cried, [...]ct. 1. Sic à progenitoribus meis ac­cipiens credidi in hac fide genitus sum & con­secratus deo, & inea opto mori: this faith I haue receiued from my auncestoures and forefathers: in this faith I was borne and baptized, and in this faith I desire to die. And yet that faith an horrible heresie as you haue heard, denying that Iesus Christ was man. Auxentius the Arri­an heretique made this his refuge, and told thē that sought his reformation, Quemadmodem ab infantiâ doctus sum, ita crediat & credo, E­ven as from mine infancy I haue heene taught so I haue beleeued and doe beleeue. S. Hilary re­porteth thus of him. By which examples wee plainely see what an olde ginne of Satan this is to intangle vs with the doings of our forefa­thers, and to make vs beleeue that the follow­ing of them in all things is a praise for vs, and that we ought not in any thing to slippe away from them. But it is not soe. God hath other­wise taught vs, auncient fathers haue othewise preached and written: and the matter of our e­ternall saluation is weighty. We must beware, [Page 49]vnto the former examples ad, that of the Iewes so notable in the prophet, where beeing rebu­ked of the prophet Ieremy for their Idolatry (God so commanding him) they flatly answe­red as these heretiques before named, and as they of the Romish Church still daily answere The worde which thou hast spoken to vs in the name of the Lord, we will not heare it of thee but as our forefathers haue done, our kings and our princes in the city ot Iudah, so will we doe, euen whatsoeuer goeth out of our owne mouth, as to burne incense to the Queene of heauen, and to powre out drinke offrings vnto her: for then had we plentie of victualls, and were well and felt no euill: but since we left of to burne incense to the Queene of heauen, and to powre out drinke offerings vnto her: we haue scarcenesse of all things, and haue bene consumed by the sword and famine &c. I doubt not mother, but you marke this place well, for indeede it is a verie notable and pregnant example to this ende we nowe speak of, and the words are as it we heard all the Ro­mish Catholicks speake together, so iumpe they with them. And so like is Satan to himselfe in his trickes and deuises to de­ceiue Gods people. But nowe what saith God? Doeth be like of this answere and [Page 50]of this heady and vnadvised following of their auncestoures. No, No, neither euer will he like of it to the worldes ende. Reade I beseech you the chapter your selfe, and you shall see the fierce wrath of the Lord against them for this answere, and for this doing. He sweareth by his great name (a dreadfull punishment) that he will not vouchsafe to haue his name any more mentioned by them: but he will watch ouer them for euill and not for good, till they all be consumed by the sworde and by the famine with an vtter destruction. This is the liking that God hath of following others before vs, and of alleadging their examples without due care and consideration of their doings, whe­ther they were answerable to Gods word the rule of his liking and pleasure yea or no. By his Prophet Ezechiel againe he instructeth vs of his pleasure in this matter, [...]. 20. v. 18. and deliuereth it for his absolute commandement. In statutis patrū nolite ambulare, vvalke ye not in the ordinan­ces of your fathers, neither obserue their man­ners: meaning, rashly, vnadvisedly, hand ouer head, without examination, howe these ordi­nances and manners pleased God. For so saieth the prophet, you may defile your selves either vvith Idols, [...] .19. or some other thing displeasing to God. But if you vvill euer be sure and safe, fol­lowe [Page 51]the true rule and the onely right vvay. I am the Lord your God, vvalke in my statutes, & keepe my commandements &c. Which sound counsell the godly father had his eye vpon, when he saide, Non debemus attendere quid a­liquis ante nos faciendum putauerit, sedquid qui ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit, vve may not regard what some before vs thought meete to be done, but what he who vvas before all men Iesus Christ our deare Sauiour did▪ that that is our rule in whatsoeuer we are to imi­tate him. I cannot omit to remember Lactanti­us his wordes in this matter, Deorum cultores libentèr errant, & stultitiae favent suae, à qui­bus sirationem requiras per suasionis eius, Institut. l. 5. [...] nulla possunt reddere, sed ad maiorum iudicia confu­giunt, quòd illi sapientes fuerint. The vvorship­pers of many Gods (saith he) doe vvillingly erre, and favour their owne folly: of vvhome if you aske a reason of their perswasion and opinion, they can giue none, but straight flie to the iudgement of their forefathers, saying they vvere wise men &c. And is not this the verie answer of Romish Catholicks at this day? Can they giue any reason a number of them but e­uen this now mentioned of heretickes and I­dolatours? I vvas borne and baptized in this faith, and mine owne father and mother char­ged [Page 52]me vpon their blessing, to be of this opini­on &c. they were as wise men and women as we and such like. But how good these answers bee, you see, if you either regard scripture, or fathers, to be taught by them. Lactantius nip­peth this folly we see by his words and euer it shall be derided. Our soules cost more then that should pinne them on any mens sleeues, were they neuer so neere or deare vnto vs. Clemens Alexand hath the like good speach. Alii dicūt, im pium est si non colamus ea quae nobis tradita sunt à patribus nostris, & religionem praevari­camur à matoribus datam. Hac ratione sicuius pater latro fuerit, aut sicuius, leno, à patribus sibi traditam consuetudinem mutare no debet, nec ad meliorem viam à paternis erroribus re­uocari, Others say it is a great wickednesse, if we worship not those things which are by our forefathers deliuered vnto vs, and we betray the religion of our fathers: but by this reason if any mans father were a theife or a bawde, he ought not to chaunge the custome deriued from his father nor be reduced to a better way from his fathers errour. Thus derideth he a­gaine this fonde kinde of argument. My fa­ther did so, and so his father before him again, therefore I will doe so anâ vvill not bee persvvaded. Yea assuredly thus haue euer [Page 53]all truely instructed derided it. And it neuer was, nor neuer shall be a fitte aunswere for a childe of God. When I thinke of this matter sometimes I make a comparison betwixt the body and the soule, and I aske of a Romish Ca­tholicke, whether if his father and diuers o­thers of his auncestoures had a bodily disease whereof they died for want of skill to cure it, he nowe hauing the same successiuely after them, and the cure well knowen, would yet wilfully die of his infirmity as his forefathers did, rather then swarue from the example and be cured; He will answere no. And yet in the matter of the soule which is farre aboue the bodie hath not grace to consider what an ab­surd answer it is to alleadge his father, vnlesse he know by the rule of gods word, that his fa­ther indeed was to be followed. So you see (deare mother) both your questions answered, and how it is no new matter but a very ancient subtiltie to entangle men and womens mindes with the examples of their forefathers, because naturally we all reuerence and loue those of whome we are descended. But it is no right way: For we both may and ought sometimes to dissent from them, and yet not sit in iudge­ment vpon them as though they were dam­ned, God beeing indeede able to saue them [Page 54]as we haue heard: neither ought we thereby to take occasion of presumption to condemne the grace offered vs, though denied to others, as we ought not to refuse a bodily medicine to saue our life, because our fathers know it not. Surely if they had had the light that is vouch­safed vs, they would haue excelled vs, as farre as angels excell men.

I see sonne gods spirit bloweth where it listeth, and happy is the man and woman whose eare he openneth. To heare is good, and either to stoppe our ea [...]e, or to harden our heart with a premeditate opinion is most dan­gerous: for as the Apostle perswadeth to ho­spitality, because so men haue receiued angels into their houses: so by hearing is god receiued who made the angels, and by refusing to heare the doore is shut vpon him most dangerously and be excluded.

O deare Mother giue your owne flesh and blood leaue with knees of heart bowed before the Lord to reioyce for this your ho­ly speech, to praise the name of the most high, whose mercy hath neither bottom nor mea­sure, and to beseech him for his sweete sonnes sake to goe forward in mercy and pitty to­wards his deceiued children, that they may see their saluation in Iesus Christ, embrace the [Page 55]trueth and be saued.

To this your prayer sonne, I say with all mine heart, amen. But yet I haue not done with you. I haue heard some say, that if this way that you so dislike, to follow the church of Rome, and to beleeue as we are taught by the successours of Peter, were to goe astraie, why hath it not beene noted so till now of late yeares. Can any of you tell where or vnder what Pope or Emperour papistrie first began, and what Churches then complained of it.

Good Mother your questions still are to good purpose;who firsts [...] Rome to [...] ­cline, & [...]. for this is an high point with diuers popish writers, and these thinke they haue plunged vs, when they haue made this demaunde. But I am nowe comforted with assu­rance of your readinesse to heare what on our side is answered, which is thus: That if these false perswaders thinke (as appeareth by this question they doe) that the Church standing possessed of a true religion, there cannot arise a false, but that some either many or fewe must rebuke it; it is not so in such errours as creepe in at the beginning by hypocrisie, & by a great shewe of holinesse, as poperie did, but onely in grosse and apparent errours it is so. Nowe po­perie is called of the Apostle, a ministerie, and why? because it is not open to euery eye, but [Page]vnder a colour and cloake of holinesse so conueieth it selfe into mens hearts, and into the worlde, that it is not obserued and no­ted of many, and scarce by any. Againe, as a building maketh no shewe till it be a­boue the ground, so this synagogue for a time was not noted, when yet the worke men laboured harde to raise it and builde it. Thirdly, wee are admonished and tolde e­ven of this errour, that so slie, so colourable and so hypocriticall it should be, as the very elect thereby, if it were possible, should be de­ceiued. Fourthly in reason and experience wee see and knowe that tares in the corne are not noted till they bee come vppe, the grasse is not seene growing, but when it is gro­wen. And therefore to set this down that no false religion, no errour of heresie may creepe into the church, but at the very first it must be noted of some, is not true, & especially of this errour of poperie: for it en­tred not all at once, but by degrees in diuers ages, and these degrees so small that they they could not more be discerned then the grasse growing. The hypocriticall shewe of devotion and good intent letted greatly: the woolfe in a sheepes skinne may deceiue. Again it is well knowen that these primitiue times [Page 57]were greatly exercised with open, grosse, and apparent heresies, seeking the ouerthrowe of the faith directly & manifestly, as of Ebion, Ce­ [...]inthus, Arrius, and others Diuers, of the defen­ders whereof were of great giftes, and so their doings were dangerous: vpon which the fa­thers eyes were bent, that it was not possible to obserue little ones creeping in so colourably as I haue saide, and so hypocritically. If any did obserue somewhat then, yet neuer thought they that such small declinings would grow to such an issue as nowe we see, and therefore were lesse carefull to write of them; and if they did write, so many and so great haue bene the losses of bookes since that time by persecutions and troubles,That the bish­ops of Rome did vse to bur [...] all bookes crossing their errours, vide Concil. Rom. Concil. Con­stant. ses [...]. 8. C [...] ­cil. Trident. Bellar. Tom 1. contr. 5. l. 3. de laicis, c. 20. and sundry confusions in the world, that well they might perish and bee lost Moreouer the bishops of Rome beeing in credit with the Emperours had euer op­pertunitie to suppresse, deface, and alter wri­tings, roules, and recordes against them, as they thought good, whose consciēces could brooke such dealings well inough, as we see by experi­ence in the councell of Nice falsified by them to their perpetuall shame. Finally the cre­dit of diuers good bishops of Rome at the first, did so sticke in the mindes of men, that for their sakes the rest a great [Page 58]while after were the better thought of and not suspected as they deserued, who indeede succeeded in place, but not in vertue and pietie.

Sonne these be good reasons I confesse, why the beginning might not be so well mar­ked: but yet if it had beene so false a religion as now is saide, it could not but haue beene mar­ked of some.

Good mother if what I haue saide bee well weighed, it doth fully prooue what I vn­dertake, namely, that errour may creepe in vn­der colour of deuotion by small degrees, in the time of greater grosse heresies and not be no­ted for a time. But if so much may not suffice, we answere further to your question, that the misterie of Papistrie beeing antichristianity, began euen in the Apostles times Claudius be­ing the Emperour of Rome, and so continued increasing vntill the time of Sigismund, who procured the councell of Constance, in which the lay people were robbed of the cup. So haue you the Emperour vnder whome it be­ganne. But for the pope we vse to craue par­don id we cannot shewe him certainly, because then there were three popes, & no man could tell which was the right, but euerie man spake as he was affected to one of them. And for cō ­plaints [Page 59]against it the stories make it well kno­wen, that in the time of Seuerus Emperour, Victor bishop of Rome bewraying an ambiti­ous desire of superiority ouer other bishopps,Euseb. l. 5. c. 25 Irenaeus the ancient father, Bishop then of Li­ons, Polycrates, and many others reprooued him. Afterward in the daies of Theodosius, Honorius, and Arcadius, the bishops of Rome Innocentius, Bonifacius, Sozimus, Anastasius, and Caelestine vsurping more openly & sham­fully forging the decree of the Nicene councel were reprooued and complained of by the bi­shops of Africa in open councell, the forgerie detected, and decrees made that none in Africa should appeale to any bishops ouer the sea, and that the bishop of the first [...]ea should not bee called prince of priestes, or by any such name of pride, but onely bishop of the first sea. After this againe when Iohn of Constantinople in the daies of Mauritius vsurped the title of vni­versall bishop, Gregory the bishop of Rome reprooueth it himselfe, and with such vehe­mency of words ratleth him vp for it, as no more can be said against that point of popery. Then was Mauritius cruelly murdered by his seruant Phocas, and the Empire giuen to Phocas, vnder whome Bonifacius of Rome gotte that proud title. But the Church of Rauenna [Page 60]with others complained of such pride, and would not be subiect for many yeares. Many more haue cried out as they could and noted this falling away from truth and pietie to pride and antichristianity. But good Mother, ponder with your selfe how needles this is to be stood vpon, where there is euidence of fault and fal­shood. Doe we not account it folly when we see tares in the fielde, to denie they be tares, vnlesse we knowe who sowed them, what day and houre &c. If an house be on fire, wee seeke to quench it, and stand not to aske who set it one fire. A theife taken with the man­ner is punished. Popery compared with the doctrine of the Apostles appeareth to bee tares, and we offer that issue if we prooue it, what though we knowe not when the tares were cast into the good fielde? Shall not a white head be taken so to be vnlesse the pre­cise beginning of white haires be known? A chinke in a wall is spied and mended, but the beginning vsually vnknown. When the Scribes and Pharises had corrupted religion, what bookes doe we reade to be written a­gainst them? How able were Ioseph, Simeon, Marie, Anna, &c. to confute them? Falshood is falshood though no man write against it. And therefore let the doctrine of poperie he sifted [Page 61]whether it be sound or no, and the beginning let goe, of which yet you see what I haue said.

Sonne, you haue said much, and still I wish that one of vs would heare another more then we do. I see, I see it is profitable: god hath commaunded meanes, and liketh meanes.

Mother, many a good man and woman that nowe liueth in ignorance woulde heare and reade, but that they are so terrified in holes and corners by false charmers vnder the paine of excommunication not to doe it, nor to conferre with any. Yea they are often snared with an oath not to doe it: and all to keepe them in darknesse, because the hood­ed hauke is quietest, and Sampson when his eies be out may be mocked and vsed at will: but the Lord is able to touch his peo­ples hearts to thinke of their craft, and cast from them such deceitfull workes which I beseech him to doe euen with speede. For the impietie and boldnesse of these wicked char­mers is great, and worthily reprooued by S. Hierome, who saith, of some in his time that they did tantam sibi assumere authoritatē, in Esai. l. 9. c. 3. vt siue dextra docerent siue sinistra, id est: siue bona siue malanolint discipulos ratione discutere, sed se praecessores sequi, some did take such autority [Page 62]vpon them, that whether they taught right or wrong, good or badde, they would not haue their auditours to examine it, but to followe them.

Yea but it is a great matter sonne, in our eyes, that the Church of Rome hath alwaies beene a visible state maintaining that doctrine, visible I say and still appearing and knowne, whereas your church before Luthers time, ei­ther was not at all, or was hidde, as some say, and your doctrine not receiued by publike authoritie.

But good mother, you know trueth is trueth although the whole world were set a­gainst it. And therefore still I wish your eye bent not vpon the fauour of the world, for that is commonly against the good and for the badde, but vpon the face of almightie God, his good pleasure, and the rule thereof his worde. And then for answere to this obiected, which seemeth so strong a bulwarke in the iudge­ment of many Papists: [...]e & [...] church [...] nor alwaies [...]sible. first I say, that the true church is not alwaies visible in the worlde as they take visible, that is, glorious in credit, and fauour, supported by authority of worldly po­wers, so that all people may know whether to resort vnto it. For the Church is either Ca­tholike 1. vniuersall or particular. The Catho­like [Page 63]or vniuersall church cannot be seene, and therfore we beleeue it as an article of our faith. Credo sanctam ecclesiam Catholicam, Symb. Apost. I beleeue that there is an holy Catholike Church, not as some would haue it, I giue credit to the church and beleeue what soeuer it teacheth, for then it should be Credo Ecclesiae not Credo Ecclesiam. Sentent. l. 3. distinct. 2 [...] There is great difference saith P. Lumbard fol­lowing S. Austen betwixt Credere Deum, Cre­dere Deo, and Creaere in Deum: the first is to beleeue that there is a God, the second to giue credance vnto God, and to beleeue all that t [...]u which he speaketh, the third, to rely vpon god, and to put our confidence in him for protecti­on and blessing. So doubtlesse may I say that there is an apparent difference betwixt Crede­re Ecclesiam Catholicam, Credere Ecclesiae Cae­tholicae, and Creaere in Ecclesiam Catholicam: the first is to be assuredly perswaded and to be­leeue that there is a Catholike Church, which is the meaning of the article, as the very phrase of speach sheweth, and the other articles follo­wing, Credo communionem Sanctorum, I be­leeue that there is a communion of Saints, Cre­do remissionem peccatorū, I beleeue that there is a remission of sinnes, Credo carnis resurre­ctionem, I beleeue that there is a resurrection of the flesh, &c. The second, Credere Ecclesiae [Page 65]catholicae, is to giue credit vnto the Catholike Church, and to embrace as trueth whatsoeuer the Church shall propound vnto vs, which can not be the sense of the article, except we will both confound these two phrases Credere Ec­cslesiam, and Credere Ecclesiae, so accurately di­stinguished by the master of the sentences and S. Augustin, and make the wordes of men e­quall with Gods word. The third, Credere in Ecclesiam Catholicam, is wholly to depend vp­on the Catholike Church, which we cannot make the sense of the article without violence to the wordes and great blasphemie to God. Thus much by the way and by your gentle patience, good mother, of this article, and the true meaning of it in generall, because the mi­staking thereof hath misled some into errour. Now to returne seeing we beleeue the vniuer­sall or Catholike Church, it followeth that it can not be seene. [...]eb. 11.1. For faith, as the Apostle wri­teth, is the ground of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seene. Not seene I say againe and intreat you to marke the worde. And that a particular Church is not alwaies seene, the storie of Elias prooueth pregnantly, who could not see one, and therefore was we­ry of his life, [...]ing. 19.18. whereas God had kept vnto him­selfe, euen then when he complained and in [Page 65]that place where he liued, yea in the middest of that people of whome he complained 7000. that had not bowed their knees vnto Ball. What may we thinke of these 7000. among the tenne trikes of Israel? were they not Gods people worshipping him in spirit and in truth? or is not the nūber sufficiet to make a church? Surely the number might well make seuen glorious particular Churches,Rom. 1 [...]. and the Apostle saieth of them, first that God had kept them to himselfe, secondly that they were his people, thirdly that he knewe them before, to wit, in his eternall councell, and almighty God him­selfe to his prophet acknowledged them as his beloued, and promised his protection vnto them, that they should be safely kept. Reasons,1. Reg. c. 19.1 [...].17. & 18. I suppose sufficient both for number and weight to prooue that God had his church in that place, and at that selfe same time, when & where the prophet Elias complained for want of a Church and fellowe members to worship God with him. O if so many so deare vnto god at one time in one countrie worshipping the true God, truly, by the testimony of God him­selfe, were hidde from so great a Prophet, why may we not thinke that in the many mightie nations of Christendome there haue in­deede beene many thousands more belon­ging [Page 66]to God then the eie of any man could dis­cerne. S. Augustin saith, Aliquando in sola do­mo Noah Ecclesia erat, [...]l. 128. in solo Lot & domo e­ius Ecclesia erat, in solo Enoch Ecclesia erat, Sometimes the Church was onely in Noah his house, sometime in Abraham alone, sometime in Lot alone and his house, sometime onely in Enoch. Therefore neither a particular church is euer so visible, as papists would make it, whē it lieth hidden sometimes in one house, some­times in one man. Assuredly S. Augustin was farre from that opinion when he wrot thus: [...]nit. Eccl. c3. c. 16. asch. c. 14. Looke therefore howe Christ was knowen when he was vpon earth, so is his Church, namely by the worde, not by the outwarde Pompe and shewe. Shee cannot be hidde from those that still diligently seeke her in the scrip­tures, where onely, I say againe, the certaine knowledge of her is to be found. [...]al. 10. Neuerthe­lesse shee is compared by S. Augustin and ma­ny more, to the moone, which is often hidde, and he acknowledgeth that shee may be so se­cret that the members know not one another. Persecutions haue bin so great, that the world sawe not for a long time together such an out­ward shewe, [...]g. de. bap­ [...]. cont. Do­ [...]. l. 6. c. 4. as Popery speaketh of. Dioclesian and Maximinian boasted that they had vt­terly abolished the superstition of Christ (as [Page 67]they call it) and name of Christians. The like di­uelish boasting made Nero in his time, where was then this visible face of the Church so glo­rious? that notable place of the Apostle, what shall we say to it? They were tried by moc­kings,Heb. 11.36. &c. and scourgings, yea moreouer by bōdes and imprisonment, they were stoned, they were hewen a sunder, they were tempted, they were slaine with the sword, they wandred vp and downe in sheepe skinnes, and in goat skins, beeing destitute, afflicted and tormented: whōe the world was not worthy of, they wandred in wildernesses and mountaines and dennes, & caues of the earth. Were not these the childrē of God? were not these the Church? what out­ward pompe had these men in the worlde, to mooue others ledde by such inducements to resort vnto them? O folly therefore to dreame of any such thing! Howe differeth it from that errour of the disciples, exspecting an earthly kingdome of their master, and worldly pre­ferments for themselues That vision of the woman forced to flie into the wildernesse to a­voide the rage of antichrist,Apoc. 1 [...]. doth it not con­vince my conscience, that the Church is hidde sometimes from mens eies! Howe can that Church be saide to flie into the wildernesse, which hath alwaies a visible face, a visible place [Page 68]a visible grace and glorie, a great companie of fauourers, might, power, authority, &c. were not Christ and his followers on earth the Church? had they any such shewe? Nay they were poore, base, and not regarded in compa­rison of the Scribes, Pharisees, high priests, and that rabble. You shall be hated of all men for my sake, &c: saith our Sauiour of his Church: and is this to be visible euer in the world in manner and forme now often mentioned? who seeth not that it is farre from it. And thus I hope I haue sufficiently cleared this first point, that the Church is not alwaies visible, as they meane visible, which may suffice for answer to this vaine obiection of theirs, as vtterly ouerthrowing the ground thereof: yet I an­swere further first to their Church, that no Romish Catholicke liuing (and I pray you consider well what I say) shall euer be able to prooue that there was any visible Church for fiue or sixe hundred yeares after Christ, which maintained all or the cheife points of popery, wherein they differ from vs. Then for our Church we truely affirme that it was long before Luther, euen in the primi­tiue Church. For we stand vpon this, that we embrace and professe onely that doctrine which springeth as the water of life out of [Page 69]the sanctuarie, that is, out of the writings of the prophets and Apostles, and therefore that our Church doth not differ saue that in degree of excellency from those famous churches plan­ted and watered by the Apostles themselues; which shall yet more manifestly appeare by the doctrine it selfe duly considered, the main points whereof, as hath been already touch­ed in another place, are these, 1. Concerning the morall lawe of God comprised in tenne pre­cepts, that it is the perfect rule of righteousnes, wherein we see as in a Christall glasse, both what we should doe, and what we doe not, and howe farre short we are of that obedi­ence which is required at our handes by god. 2. The doctrine of repentance, that finding of our selues transgressoures of Gods diuine lawe, and guiltie of his wrath, wee should in due humilitie and contrition of heart throwe downe our selues at the throne of his grace, and in the anguish of our soules confesse our iniquities and rebellions against our selues, and euerie man say with the poore Publi­can, God be mercifull to me a sinner. 3. The doctrine of faith, that trauelling thus and groaning vnder the burden of our sinnes, wee should goe vnto our Sauiour for ease, comfort, and refreshing, that is, that we should [Page 70]steadfastly beleeue that he died for our sinnes and rose againe for our iustification and eter­nall saluation. [...]om. 4. 4. the doctrine of good workes and a godly life, that we ought euer to bee carefull to abound in good workes and haue our conuersation in heauen. 5. The doctrine of praier that we should in all our necessities call vpon God in the name of his sonne, as our blessed Sauiour hath taught vs in the Gospell: [...]t. 3. [...]al. 3. and especially that we should frequent the house of God, by publike praier to speake vn­to him, and by his word to heare him speak vnto vs for instruction. 6. The doctrine of the Sacraments, Baptisme and the Lords supper. 7. Lastly, the twelve articles of our creede, I be­leeue in God &c. These are the pillars and foun­dation of our religion, yea the very soule and life of our Church, and all of them founded & grounded vpon the rocke Iesus Christ, and his sacred word, and without controuersie the ve­ry essence and beeing of all Churches that haue been euer or shall be to the ende of the world. Wherefore when our aduersaries ask vs (as they doe very often) where was your church before Luther, we may well answere, as our Sauiour did in the Gospell by another question, videlicet, These points of doctrine before mentioned were they before Luthers [Page 71]time or no? If they will ansvvere vs to this, we vvill ansvver them, yea they shall be forced to ansvver themselues, that this doctrine is of god and from heauen, and that there neuer vvanted some to professe it publikly in all partes or the most of Christendome, since the happy time of our blessed Sauiour: and therefore that our Church hath alvvaies bin a visible state though not so stately as they boast of theirs to their ovvne shame, if Saint Augustin may be iudge, vvho calleth Rome in regard of this pompe and pride the Western Babylon, the second Babylon, another Babylon,de cinit. d 16. c. 17. l. 1 22.27 the daughter of the former Babylon the earthly citie. Yet for their further satisfaction I further aske of them: doe not they thēselues say they beleeue all these former points? doe they not stand vpon it that they haue euer so professed? Is there any thing in there religion of more moment and vveight or any other part of doctrine besides these, ab­solutely necessarie to saluation? vvhy then doe they aske vs vvhere and by vvhome this religi­on of ours vvas professed before Luthers time? May vve not vvell and charitably affirme that it vvas professed in Fraunce. Spaine, and Italy: yea in Rome euer since first Rome embraced the gospell preached by the Apostles? Doubt­lesse I am persvvaded that many thousands [Page]euen nowe in these countries where the popes keyes preuaile, doe truely hold the 12. articles of the Apostles creede and Athanasius his creede, which he calleth the Catholike faith, with all the other points of doctrine set down before, which if they doe, holding the foū ­dation, though they build vpon it woode, hay, [...] 3. or stubble, that is some erroneous do­ctrine, yet they are the true Church of God and shallbe saued. A pearle, is a pearle, though in an heape of dust, wine is wine though min­gled with water, and wheate is wheate, though couered with much chaffe: and is not the my­sterie of godlinesse whereof Paul speaketh, god manifested in the flesh, [...] 3. iustified in the spirit, seene of Angels, preached vnto the Gentils, beleeued on in the world, receiued vp in glo­rie, still the mysterie of godlinesse, and that trueth and sure foundation whereō the house of god is builded, though matter vnsutable vnto it be laide vpon it? yes verely. And therefore se­ing the Church of Rome hath euer held the misterie of godlinesse though mingled with many dregs of mens inuentions, I doubt not but God hath euer had a people amongst them and a true Church more then 7000. which haue not bowed the knee vnto Baal. [Page 73]what we are to thinke of their leaders and teachers which indeed haue corrupted this doctrine with their owne leauen, and endea­uoured by all meanes to shut vp and obscure this mysterie, is another question, especially for those that haue done it wilfully and ma­litiously, and died in that malice. But of the rest thus we iudge and thus we answere, that so many as truely holde and professe all the former articles of doctrine (as I assure my selfe many doe) are fellowe members with vs in the same mysticalll bodie whereof Christ is the head. And therefore our church hath euer beene in theirs, though not euer so manifest to the eye of the worlde as it was for the space of the first fiue hundred yeares. Me thinkes this answere should well content them and fully satisfie them, be­ing so charitable towards them. But to giue them an answere of their owne and by them­selues, to let them see that the true Church is not alwaies so visible as they pretende. They knowe that nowe in England they haue not authoritie to countenance their religion and Church, and yet they say that they haue a Church amongest vs, and where they dare well say it, they are bold to [Page 74]say it is a great one, yea the greter part, though I trust they shall neuer prooue it in that num­ber. Why then in persecution and when the Lord punisheth the vnthankefulnesse of men with taking awaie our publike and autorised assemblies, may not we as well haue a church holding the true faith of Christ according to his word, as they now a flocke cleauing to the Bishop of Rome.

Rome hath alwaies beene called the Mother Church, and they doe ioyne with that.Rome is not he mother Church.

Howe can Rome be the mother church, when shee is later then those first churches of Hierusalem, and Antioche? Can a mother be yonger then her daughters, or her daughters elder then their mother? The very scriptures teach vs that all churches, and euen Rome it selfe haue risen out of the Churche of Hieru­salem. Fou out of Sion shall his lavve come, and the word from Hierusalem.

You answer me well that Rome can­not be the mother Church of al, because other churches haue beene before her. Neuertheles of this Church of England shee is rightly the mother, because this land receiued the faith frō her, first by Eleutherius the Pope and martir, who sent Daminianus and Fugatius to teach [Page 75]it to the Britanes at the request of their king who was then Lucius, and after by Gregory the great, who sent Augustine and Melitus with other holy priests to teach our aunce­stours the english, who then were planted here and had remooued the Brittaines into an other corner.

Deare mother all this you are taught and told by them who abuse gods people bought with his pretious blood. But it hath beene an­swered truely, that this can not be so. For first Eleuth confesseth in his answer to king Luci­us his message, that he had the scriptures, wher­in were the lawes of God, farre more to be re­garded then the Romane lawes: he praiseth his zeale and telleth him, that out of the scriptures with the aduise of his counsell he might draw conuenient lawes for his kingdome he beeing in his owne land Christs vicar &c. Howe then was Eleutherius his first Apostle? Againe doth not Nicephorus plainely saie in his story, Simō Zelotes doctrinam Evangelij ad occidentalium Oceanum in sulas (que) Brittanicas perfert. Lib. 2. c. 40 Simon Zelotes carried the doctrine of the gospell vn­to the west Ocean sea and vnto the Islandes of Britraine. This was before Eleutherius Doe not others write that Ioseph of Arimathea did it? hat. S. Paul in his passage this way into Spain [Page 76]did it, and alleadge authors for it? Might not the Greekes doe it, or some others, since eui­dently it appeareth by Eleutherius his own cō ­fession, he was not the first? Then for Augu­stine and the rest doe not these plaine testimo­nies of the fathers vsually alleadged to this end satisfie any man liuing not way warde, that this land had the faith before him and them. Tertullian liued about the yeare of our Lord 210. And his words are these. Brittannorum in accessa Romanis loc a subduntur Christo. [...]. Iudaeos. The countries of Britane which the Romanes coulde never attaine vnto are now subiect to Christ. Origen about the yeare 212 writeth,Ezech. hom. Terra Brittanniae in religionem Christi consensit. The land of Britane hath yeelded to Christ his religion. [...]. Apolog. 2. Athanasius about the yeare three hundred thirtie foure hath the like. Constan­tine the Emperour maketh mention in his time of Christian Churches in Britane. [...]od. l. 1. c. 10. This was about the yeare 330. S. Hilary in his time intituleth his letter, Clericis Tolosanis & provinciarum Britannicarum episcopis. L. de Synod. To the Clergi of Tolosa and to the bishops of Bri­tane. This was about the yeare 360. S. Chri­sostome of his time saieth.m. quod [...]ristus sit de Et in sulae Britanni­cae extra hoe mare sitae & in ipso Oceano positae senserunt virt [...]tem verbi dei. The Islands [Page 77]of Britane beeing in the very Ocean and farre out of this our sea haue felt the power of Gods vvord. This he wrotte about anno 400. Theodoret saith, Huic fidei consenserunt ou [...] ­nes Ecclesiae, quae (que) in Hispania sunt, Histor. l. 4. c. quae (que) in Britannia. To this faith haue agreed all the Churches both of Spaine and Britane. What can be more plaine and more fully prooued if we be not wilfull. Now all these fathers and writers liued sundrie yeares before the ariuall of Austine the monke and his fellowes. Ther­fore they by no meanes coulde bee the first planters and publishers of the faith in this land. Gildas writeth that in the time of Ti­berius this land was Christian.Hist. A [...]g. l. 2 c. 2. Beda writeth that in his time and almost a thousand yeares after Christ Easter was kept here in Eng­land after the manner of the East Church in the full moone what day in the weeke so­euer it fell on, and not on the sunday as nowe we doe, whereby it is very manifest and pro­bable that the first preachers in this lande came more rather out of the East, then from Rome. Therefore by all these proofes and arguments Rome is not the mother Church of England, for it had the trueth long before Eleutherius or Austin. I spare to shewe the [Page 78]bloodie crueltie of this Austin (whome the pa­pists make an Apostle) with other his foule vi­ces of pride and disdaine, &c. our stories shewe it: and I may haue other occassion hereaf­ter.

Well sonne, I will nowe goe no fur­ther with you in these pointes: but I will put a case or two, and tell me your minde. What if a Catholike be sworne to persist in the obedi­ence of the Church of Rome, and not to re­volt, howe can such an one without plaine per­iury take another course.

Indeede this is their diuelish practise and pollicy in these daies, to steale the hearts and loyaltie of the people from their prince, as Ab­solon did from his father, but came to a foule ende; to creepe into houses, and lead captiue simple women, [...], 6. as the Apostle saieth, to snare them with oathes and vowes and promises, & whatsoeuer they can deuise,cont. Val. wherein they tread in the steps of the olde Valentinian here­tiques worthily taxed by Tertullian, of whom that learned father saith: Aditum priùs cruci­ant, they first torment their schollers, at their entrance [...]ne discipulis quidem proprijs antè cō ­mittant quàm suos fecerint, they commit not their misteries and doctrine, no not to their ovvne disciples, before they haue made them [Page 79]their owne. Habent artificium quo priùs per­suadeant quàm edoceant: they haue a tricke of legerdemaine, first to persvvade before they teach. Even as nowe our Iesuits and seminarie priests when they seeke to reconcile any to their mother the Church of Rome, they take them sworne vpon the sacrament of the altar, that they shall euer after cleaue fast to tha [...] synagogue, & renounce all our doctrine & church assemblies. And before they haue thus made them their owne, and fettered their conscien­ces with a vowe they doe not open their pac­ket of Romish wares vnto them. They beginn with perswasions and end with instructions. But the trueth, saith Tertullian, perswadeth by instructiō, instructeth not by perswasion.ibidem. Veritas docen [...] persuadet, non suadendo doc. And doubtlesse trueth is euer strong and will pre­vaile with as many as God hath ordained to eternall life. The Lords sheepe may stray a time: bu [...] at last the cheife sheapheard that lea­ueth 99 in the wildernes and goeth to seeke what is lost, will finde them in mercy, and ioi­fully bring them to his folde, and to the rest that straied not as they did. Nowe touching your case, good mother consider well in your selfe this one thing; whether any vnder heauē way lavvfully giue me an oath, or I lavvfully take an oath either to doe vvhat God flatly [Page 80]forbiddeth me, or to leaue vndone what God flatly commandeth me.

No sure: I am fully resolued of that.

Then must I consider not onely that I haue sworne, but to what I haue sworne, and if I finde that vnlawfull, you see my oath may not binde me against the Lord. Nowe we boldly avowe, as you haue heard, and euer so did we avowe, that if any parcel of our christi­an faith wherevnto we perswade be not that which God in his word hath commanded, and forbidden the contrary, we will renounce it. Therefore I must weigh the doctrine as well as my vow or oath, and if the doctrine be true that I haue sworn against, and that false which I haue sworne to keepe, you haue confessed that you thinke this oath wicked and not to be kept.

Surely, I cannot say otherwise, for my conscience telleth me it is so.

Howe then is it that many thus entang­led neuer goe about to consider the matter, but altogether sticke to their oath, and thinke with themselues: I haue sworne; therefore I may not chaunge.

I know it to be true: and I see it is a falt: for surely no oath ought to force me either to euill or from good concerning the loo­sing [Page 81]or sauing of my soule.

Your true opinion mother, in this mat­ter, may be confirmed by examples out of gods booke. Iephtha you know made a rash vowe,Iud. 11. [...]. which is in the nature of an oath, to offer to God what first met him out of his house, whē he returned home, and had gotten the victory against his enemies. His own daughter mette him first. Did he well to kill her? What if a dogge or a swine had met him, beeing things that God would not abide to be vsed in sacrifi­ce, should his oath haue tyed him directly to doe that which god abhorred? if not those, thē not his childe, if obedience be better then sacri­fice of things lawefull, how much more then sacrifice of such crueltie and vnnaturall blood­dinesse? Iephta therefore is condemned and e­uer shal be for this wicked keeping of his vow. Herod made a promise to his dancing daugh­ter, you know the story: did he well to keepe that oath? Iudge in your conscience how God liked that fact. The [...]ext saith,Mat. [...] Herod was sorry whē he heard her petitiō, yet for his oaths sake he sent and beheaded Iohn Baptist in the pri­son. O bloodie oath and sinfull keeping of it. His cōscience whipped him whilst he liued for it, and made him thinke when he heard of Christ that Iohn was risen againe whome he [Page 82]had beheaded. In the Acts of the Apostles cer­taine Iewes more then fortie men bound thē ­selues with an oath that they would neither eat nor drinke till they had slaine Paule. [...] And must they needes either kill that blessed Apostle, or pine themselues to death by refusing food, be­cause they had sworne? God forbidde. I assure my selfe you like better of the Apostles words, we must obey God rather then men: And god saith thou shalt do no murther. Gehezy in the booke of the kings sware that he vvould fol­lowe after Naaman, and take somwhat of him. he kept that vnlawfull oath, and by the feareful plague that fel vpon him you may see and satis­fie your selfe howe it pleased God; Dauid a man worthie following tooke another course, as we reade in his storie: when he had sworne to kill Naball, and not to leaue a man of his house to looke vppon a wall, yet meeting with his wife Abigail by the way, and admonished by her of so hard a course, he changed his minde, blessed God that had sent her as a mean to saue him from shedding blood, and thought so wel of the woman, that after the death of her hus­band, he married her. Had Dauid said, as decei­ued soules nowe a daies doe, I haue sworn, and I must keepe mine oath, greatly had he sinned against the Lord to his owne hurt. This is an [Page 83]example chronicled vp of God in his owne booke, to be followed of all those that feare him. An oath is ordained of God to ende strife beeing lawfully taken, and to strengthen truth,Firma mentu veri [...]a [...] [...]on vinculum iniquitatis, but in no case to be vniculum iniquitatis, a bond to tie vs to iniquity. Most worthily ther­fore answered Agesilaus, when one said, Thou hast promisea, Yea, if it be iust, saith he, other­wise, loquutus sum, non promisi, I spake, but it vvas no promise, meaning that no promise should be vrged beyond right. May we thinke that he by the light he had, would haue stood vpon a wicked oath? no no assuredly: Non prae­stabit fides quod exhibuit infidelitas, Faith may not performe vhat vvant of faith vnlawfully svvare and vowed. By the commō law (which is [...]he Popes owne law) who sware in his heat, was to be enioined pennance, because calor ira­cundiae non excusat à toto, sed à tanto, The heate of anger excuseth not from all fault, but from so great a fault: neither are they to be accoun­ted periured, who can shewe impossibilitie, or impietie in their performāce. your hart meant not to sweare to euill: it then it prooue euil, and so you change, the fault is in the matter not in you.

What shall such do then?

Surely choose rather to aske god barrely [Page 84]mercy for a rash and ignorant oath, thē by kee­ping the same to adde sinne vnto sinne, yea a farre greater to a lesser; for in presumption to offend is the next consin to the sin against the holy ghost. Beware that saying in the Psalm. [...] They encourage themselues in mischeife, that is, are bold and hardie to take heart to do euill, after they are tolde of it and knowe that it is euill. Remember that in Gods law, there was a sacri­fice appointed to make an attonement for one that had sworne to doe euill. [...]vit. 5. sal. 5 [...]. A sacrifice also re­maineth now, euen a troubled spirit, sorrowful for mine vnaduised oath, mine vnlawfull▪ and wicked oath against my God, against my prince, against my country to obey a forrainer, a straunger whome I neuer saw, neuer am like to see, against mine own soules health, and to my endlesse woe. O Lord, O Lord, a broken & contrit heart thou shalt neuer despise, and ther­fore strengthen thy poore creature, to turne vnto thee, and rather to lament one sinne, then still still to sin, and so by an imagination of con­stancy to perish eternally for their contumacy.

Amen, sonne amen, for sure it is plaine that you haue saide to this point, and sweet is trueth when one doth tast it. But the worlde is so full of prittle prattle when a man turneth that one will be ashamed to heare their speech [...] some are hindred euen thus.

No questiō, mother, but Satan vseth this amongest other meanes to keepe some backe frō the truth,The pr [...] i [...] pratle of the world keepe some from t [...] truth. & it is a known weaknes in our nature to shrinke at the talk of mē. But the pro­verb is old, a wonder lasteth but 9. nights: folly will die, and trueth get strength: god is in this chaunge, and it cannot doe ill.Ang. de. [...] 5. c. 1 [...]. To haue it verifi­ed of vs which Christ spake of his enemies, is a fearefull thing, namely, that they loued the praise of men more then the praise of God The blessed Apostle saith,Ioh. 1 [...]. [...] Goe I about to please men? surely If I should doe so, I were not the ser­vant of Christ. And why? Our Sauiour Christs words giue one reason,Gal. 1. [...]0. because such cannot be tru beleeuers. For how can they beleeue saith he, which receiue honour one of another, and seeke not the honour vvhich commeth of God alone? There is extant in print a little booke contai­ning the recantations of William Tedder and Anthony Tyrrel sometime two seminarie priests of the English colledge in Rome, as they were seuerally pronounced by them at Pauls crosse in the yere 1588. wherein they both shew what letted thē in their times to be reformed. & first W. Ted. saith, one great cause was this we now speak of, the feare of wordly shame & temporall discredit: but saith he. I did not con­sider then, or I cared not for that sentence [Page 86]of our sauiour. Every one that confesseth me before men, him vvill I confesse also before my father vvhich is in heauen, [...]. 10.and whosoeuer shall be ashamed of me and of my words, in this adul­terous and a sinfull nation the sonne of man shall be ashamed of him, [...]. 8. [...].when he commeth in the glo­ry of his father with his angells. This was the cause that made me take a preposterous way turning all things to mine owne credit, when I should haue turned them to the glory of God, according to our Sauiours councell: seeke first the kingdome of God &c. So thinking to get credit by mine obstinacy, [...]. 6. I did loose, saith he, the fauour of God, the loue of my soueraigne, and the good will of all true subiects. The o­ther cause saith he, was the tickling of vain­glorie, and this I am sure doth hold most of the contrarie side in their peruerse obstinacy, howesoeuer they bragge that they seeke no­thing by their dealings but the glorie of God. I thought it a goodly thing and worthie com­mendation to defend an euill cause by proba­ble reasons, yet I know it was a hard thing for Anaxagoras to prooue that snow was blacke or incke white, and for me to prooue light to be darkenesse, and darkenes light. Thus spake this Tedder, and spared not himselfe in that o­pen place. The other Anthonie Tyrrell to the [Page 87]same effect vsed these wordes: Here, saith he I must confesse to the great honour of almigh­tie God, that I haue had many and vehement temptations to hinder me from this action of repentance, but they beeing worldly and flesh­ly, with the sword of Gods spirit I haue ouer­throwne them and cut them in peeces, One was this, the shame of the world, if I should turne: against which I haue learned nowe to say, Melius est confunài in hoc seculo, quàm in futuro. Better it is to be confounded in this vvorlde, then in the vvorld to come: & against pride and hautinesse of minde, which did also trouble me, I haue learned to say with Augu­stine, Melior est in malis factis humilis confes­sio, quam in bonis superba gloriatio, Better it is vvhen a man hath done evill, hūbly to confesse his fault, then proudly to vaunt of his well do­ing: and rather had I with the penitent publi­can confesse my selfe an open sinner, then with the proude Pharisee to prooue my selfe an open liar. Thus doe you see, good mother, the hindrance which you obiect of talke and speech of the world in these two men, both schollers and both priests, and yet howe God in mercy gaue them the vpper hand ouer such weakenesse. You knowe Nicodemus his case. He liked of Christ, and very willing he was to [Page 88]be his disciple, but he came by night, that hee might not loose his credit of the world: we all confesse it a weaknesse in him. And so certain­ly is it to feare the tongues of men that are de­ceiued as we were before god gaue vs light. Neuer had Prophet, Apostle, Martyr, or childe of God done any duty if they had hanged vp­on mens tongues, and more regarded the vaine breath of their tauntes, which haue but a time and vanish as smoake, rather then that trueth and that God which is for euer. It was well said of one, Qui conscientias suas in alienis la­biis posuerunt, modò magni, modò parui, modo nulli sunt. They that hange their consciences on other mens lipps, sometimes are great mē, som­times litle, sometimes no body: so vile and vaine is this course. [...]an. l. 14. Polycletus (saith Aelian) made two pictures, one after the fancy and correction of euery one that found any fault, another after his owne true skill and know­ledge: But O the difference of these tvvo pi­ctures! Diogenes is said vpon an extreame colde day to haue stood in the water to pu­nish his body, and many looking vpon him had pittie on him, but at last Plato seeing vvhat vvas done, and vvisely perceiuing the mans vanity, said, Masters if you pitty him indeede, goe you avvay from him, meaning that vvhē [Page 89]they were gone, of whom he vainly hūted for praise, he would come roundly out, and to the fire. Such a grosse folly is it to seeke to please men and to be highly esteemed of men for any thing, especially for errour and mis-do­ing. This is as S. Hierom saith, to be gloriae ani­mal & popularis rumoris venale mancipium:Epist. 26.The vassall of vaine-glorie, and the sold slave of popular praise. The winde hoisteth vp the light dust and scattereth all abroad: so doth the hanging too much on mens lips hurt many a man and woman well disposed, and disperse the good motions of their minde. Therefore wise was that deuise of Philippe king of Mace­don,Aelian. l. 12. who to make a vaine Phisitian delighted with mens praises too much to see his errour, invited him amongest many moe to a royall feast, and placing him at a boord by himselfe, when all the rest had great store of meate, he had onely sweete fumes and smokes made be­fore him, and so rose with an hungrie belly. I will ende with that speech which like a dart me thinkes pierceth when it is spoken or read with reuerence and due meditation. Merce­dem habent; verely, verely, I say vnto you they haue their reward. Men they would please, and praise they vvould haue, it is their ende, and they haue it, saith our Sauiour: but they had [Page 90]better be without it, for they loose the appro­bation of the Lord, and procure themselues euerlasting shame. Were the report good, or were the report euill, Paul did his duty in that which was good and had a blessed end. [...] bon [...]m fa­ [...]m, & malam [...]m.

I must confesse sonne, you are in the right, if fraile flesh would be ruled. But what say you when a man or woman, haue beene long of this minde, [...] change on [...] suddaine is [...]d, but delay [...]gerous. can they change vpon the suddaine?

O mother, what should I say? your selfe be iudge and answer your selfe. Did euer any whome we reade of in the scripture, feeling the piercing power of Gods spirit smiting vp­on the rocke of their hidden hearts within, take time with the Lord, and say they would yeelde after three moneths, or sixe moneths, &c No, no, immediatly those happy conver­tes that were pricked in their hearts at S. Pe­ters sermon cried out: [...]. Men and brethren what shall we doe? Immediatly the Eunuch, the lay­lour, the happie woman Lydia, Cornelius and all the rest spoken of in scripture were refor­med. [...]. c. 16. They staied not an houre houering and hammering,z. [...]. [...]. 16. looking backe to Sodome with Lots wife, or to Egypt with the Iewes; but ioifully embraced the trueth without delay. Surely they are set downe as holy examples for [Page 91]vs to followe. To day, to day, is the voice of God: and to morrow, to morrow is the voice of Satan. Herein doth sinne and Satan deceiue vs, that they will haue to day, and god must haue to morrowe. Now, nowe is the accepted time, saith the Apostle, & illud nunc, nullum habet crastinum, saith the godly father Nazian­zen, That now hath no morrow. All Satans fetch (saith another) is to make vs deferre, and so by deferring to loose vtterly Gods offered mer­cy; Qui non est hodie, cras minùs aptus erit, He that is not fit to day will certenly be more vnfit to morrow: Quot vicibus, tot vinculis, saith Gre­gorie of continuance in any euil: the longer we continue in it, the stiffer we shall be and the more obstinate. And of doing good its truely said of another, Quanto magis differtur, tanto difficiliùs redditur, vel propter peccati consue­tudinem, vel propter maiorem dei offensionem: The longer it is deferred, the harder it is to performe, either in respect of the strength of sinne through custome, or the offence of god in­creased by so deferring. Make no longer tarry­ing saieth the wise Siracides, tu turne vnto the Lord, neither put it off from day to day: for sud­denly shall the wrath of the Lorde breake forth, Eccles. [...] and in thy security thou shalt be destroyed, and thou shalt perish in the time of vengeance. The [Page 92]Lord vvill giue thee a penny (saith S. Austen) though thou come but at the eleuenth hovvre, but yet he hath not promised thee to live to the second hovvre: noting the vncertainty of our life not to be presumed vpon, one moment of an howre: tu ergò quò quando vocaris, veni: thou therefore saith he, come vvhither thou art called, and vvhen thou art called, come, come, without any longer stay, or any moe ifs and ands, or consultations with flesh and blood. It is thy God that calleth, who allowed not him to goe bury his father, or to salute his friendes that sought that delay, but required forthwith, Follow thou me: Zacheus when the Lord said vnto him, come dovvne for I will dine with thee, came dovvne hastely and receiued him ioyfully, which God in mercy make vs euer to doe: Whose image and superscription is vpon you, euen vpon your bodie, and vpon your soule? is it not Gods? ô giue then vnto God that which is Gods, your owne selfe to your own sweete and good God, and see the comfort of it: Lord strengthen, Lord help for thy sonnes sake.

Amen, sonne, and god giue satisfaction in our consciences euer to choose what is right in his eyes. For conscience is truely called the bird in my breast that would not be troubled.

True satisfaction of conscience, mother, is a good thing, and euer to be laboured for. But I beseech you marke howe greatly this word is abused, when fancy and will are called conscience. Now a daies let it be asked of any recusant (as we call them) why he or shee go­eth not to Church, the common answere is, forsooth my conscience will not let me; or, It is my conscience &c, as though euery toy that I take in my head were by and by conscience. Aske them further, why their conscience will not let them; either they cannot or will not answere, but thinke they haue said enough when they haue named once the word Con­science. Alas, we knowe that true conscience hath a ground and reason out of Gods word: as when I say my conscience will not suffer me to kill a man, and you aske me why? I rea­dily answere, because it is written, Thou shalt not kill, and so in all other matters forbidden & disalowed by almightie God: which if they could doe either in this matter of comming to Church, or in any other point of obedience commanded by her Maiestie and the lawe of this land, then might they talke of conscience, and make scruple with authoritie, because we must obey God rather then man. But this beeing not so forasmuch as nothing is [Page 94]inioyned them that is contrarie to the worde, therefore this conscience of theirs is but fancy, wilfull obstinacy, and disobedience, which the Lord will punish: for we are plainely taught that euerie soule ought to be subiect to the higher powers: there is no power but of God:m. 13.1 [...]. and the powers that be are ordained of God and they that resist shall receiue to themselues damnation, all beeing bound to be subiect not for feare of wrath onely, but also for consci­ence sake. For humane lawes enacted of things that be good in themselues, that is, commaun­ded of God, properly are not humane but di­uine lawes, and therefore binde conscience not because they were enacted by man, but be­cause they were first made by God, men bee­ing no more but instruments and ministers in his name to reviue, renewe, and put in execu­tion such precepts and lawes as prescribe the worship of God, standing in the practise of true religion and vertue: and the man or wo­man that breaks such lawes sinneth two waies: first because he breakes that which in nature and conscience is the lawe of God; secondly be­cause in disobeying his lawfull magistrate, he disobeyeth the generall commandement of God touching magistrats.

You wil haue cōscience then euer groū ­ded [Page 95]vpon Gods word.

Yf it be a right conscience, I say it must needes be so. For it is called Conscientia, quasi cum scientiâ (or as some thinke) quasicordis scientia, as if you should say with science and knowledge, or the knowledge of the heart. Now true knowledge what pleaseth or displeaseth God, must needes be out of his word, because therein onely his will is manifested vnto vs A­gaine the actions of the conscience (saith the Apostle) are in accusing and excusing which needes must haue relation to the word. For how can conscience iustly accuse me, but be­cause the thing I doe is condemned of God, or howe can it excuse me, but because my deedes by gods worde, which is his will, are iustifia­ble. Conscience therefore without direction of gods word cannot giue true iudgement ei­ther to iustification or condemnation. What­soeuer therefore is done with an erroneous conscience we see plainely is sinne: for euill re­maineth euill, though conscience say the con­trary a thousand times: and so doth good re­maine good. As if a man come into an house in the darke, where many thinges are out of or­der, which yet for the darkenesse he seeth not to be so, are they not therfore out of order be­cause he seeth them not? The like may be saide [Page 96]on the other side where all things are passing well, and yet he seeth it not. Conscience there­fore is a guid to me, and the word of God a guide to my conscience: which if it were mar­ked and grounded in our hearts, o how would we tremble to be so ignorant of Gods word, as often we are, and to doe as we doe, and say as we say. This makes vs to runne headlong with good intents, whereas no good intention is sufficient to make any worke good vnlesse withal conscience approoue my action, which it can neuer rightly doe, but by giuing iudge­ment that God approoueth it. This makes vs bolde to worship God with mans inuentions, [...]ay. 29. [...]3. [...]ark. 7.7. not considering that such deuises are meere sinnes, because conscience cannot say of them according to her rule, that they please God. Fi­nally as one saith with a godly desire to awake vs. This maketh mans life flowe euen with a sea of offences against God, men commonly thinking that if they keepe themselues from periury, blasphemy, murder, theft, whordome, all is well with them. But the trueth is, so long as they liue in ignorance, they want true and right direction out of Gods word: and there­fore their best actions are sinnes, euen their ea­ting and drinking, their sleeping and waking, their buying and selling, their speech and silēce, [Page 97]yea their praying & seruing of God. For they doe these actions either of custome or exam­ple, or necessity, as beasts doe, and not of faith, because they knowe not gods will touching things to be done or left vndone. Wherefore the due cōsideration hereof should make euery man most carefull to seeke for knowlede of Gods word and daily to increase in it, that he may in all his affaires haue gods lawes to be the men of his councell, that he may giue heede to them as to a lantarne vnto his feete; and a light vnto his pathes. So shall conscience be a sure guide, and he reforme himselfe by true obedience both to God and man. Otherwise as I haue saide, what we call conscience, is but a fancie, a conceit, and a false erroneous per­swasion, such as if we still will follow against God, against prince, against countrie, and all that euer any gouernours or friendes can say vnto vs: the daie will come when wee shall feele with woe the punishment of such obsti­nacy, and true conscience shall witnesse the want of conscience in so proudly disobeying all good perswasions, which God forbid in his great mercy, and turne our hearts in time vnto his trueth.

But I take it there is a plaine scripture, that who so doth a thing which in his heart he [Page 98]thinketh he should not doe, committeth dead­ly sinne, because he doth against his own con­science, or against his owne pretensed know­ledge.

Good mother, the scripture you mean (as I conceiue) is written in the 14 chapter of the Epistle to the Romans, where the blessed A­postle saith, He that doubteth, is condemned if he eate because he eateth not of faith: and what soeuer is not of faith is sinne. Which place lit­tle helpeth any popish ignorance or stubburne wilfullnesse, but is greatly by Romish Catho­lickes abused and wrested, as other scriptures to serue for their way wardnesse. Concerning which text, thus haue our men truely and god­lily answered long agoe and often: first that the Apostle speaketh there of a particular and cer­taine matter, papists applying these wordes ge­nerally to whatsoeuer they doe contrary to their erroneous conscience or pretensed kno­wledge, 2. that the particular matter which the Apostle speaketh of is a thing indifferēt, wher­as Papists apply the wordes to things simply good, and simply euill, saying the former may be left vndone if my erring conscience be a­gainst it, the later done without sinne, if my pretensed knowledge lead me to it. 3. That the things which the Apostle speaketh of, were [Page 99]such as God himselfe was author of in his lawe, as distinction of meate and daies, which whilst the Iewes wonne to the Gospel did in those daies retaine, though they did it ignorantly, not knowing the libertie of the Gospell, yet till they might be fully perswaded therein by faith, which is grounded on doctrine and on the word, they were bound to keepe by the com­mandement of God himselfe. 4. That the man­ner and end of the Apostles bearing is not to nourish errour, or to harden such an one in his opinion and doing, but by patience to drawe him to trueth in the ende, which manner of to­lerance the Apostle calleth edification, vers. 19. and chap. 15.2. Lastly the Apostle speaketh not of Gentiles & infidels, nor of stubburn Christi­ans, but of a brother, a faithfull man, and one that hath receiued and embraced the professi­on of the Gospell, but is weake through igno­rance of some one point pertaining to Christi­an liberty in the outward vse of Gods creatures wherein he is not throughly perswaded of in­structed; of bearing with such an one by those whome God hath called to more plentifull knowledge of his heauenly trueth, speaketh he. All which things duly considered, the true sence of the place appeareth thus: namely that the faithfull for his particular regard beeing in [Page 100]doubt, or lacking the full perswasion of faith (which is giuen by measure, and hath his time of groweth and increasing) cannot without danger, (and therefore ought not) attempt to do that wherein he is not already by the word of God and faith fully and throughly resolued. But mark this double caution; first, that his ab­steining from the outward action be without danger of offence, and scandall & secondly, that he stand not stiff [...]ly in his owne opinion, flatte­ring himselfe therein, but ready vpon further instruction and knowledge to grow forward and to profit, yea desirous also of such instru­ction, and whatsoeuer other meanes may help to the better informing of his consciēce in that behalfe, whereby he may both clearely see the thing doubted of to the good, holy, and lawfull, & do the same with all sincerity & faithfullnes.

But what if without dāger of offending God and prince, I cānot abstaine from the out­ward action, and yet doubt in my selfe.

Your obedience beeing due, it lesse offen­deth to commit one fault then two, that is to doe what you ought though doubtingly, then both do doubt and disobey. The doubting is a fault, the obedience is none. Amend what is e­uill by better instruction, withdraw not what is good and due by all right. He is condemned [Page 101]saith the Apostle, if he eate, not because he eteth but because he eateth not of faith. In a lawefull action therefore it is not the deed which offen­deth, but the doubting, that is, not the matter, but the manner: performe obedience with a single heart and God in meane shall blesse it with true resolution.

Doth not then an erroneous consci­ence binde.

It may be borne withall for a time in charitable regard of weakenesse, and in hope of better instruction, but God for­bidde that it should still binde, and bee a couer or excuse for wilfull, waywarde, and malitious disobedience.2. Thes. 2. 1. Tim. 4. For then to bee giuen ouer to a strong delusion to beleeue lies is not such a iudgement as the Apo­stle maketh it, neither yet to haue the con­science feared with an hotte iron.2. Tim. 1.19 It is not right which the Apostle teacheth that vpon the putting away of a good con­science their followeth any shipwracke of faith, or that the wicked haue their very mindes and consciences defiled.1. Tit. 1. For if the colour of such a conscience binde, excuse and saue harmeles, how is it defiled? can that which is defiled it selfe make cleane any action? But ô miserable doctrine! that false reason [Page 102]should be made a guide to will, and we bound to followe so blinde a guide. The very heathen philosophers were not so madde. For they talke of recta ratio, and of mens sana in corpo­re sano, of right and true reason, and of a sound minde in a sounde body, &c. A Iewe sinneth mortally (say these Catholike teachers) if cō [...]ra­trary to his pretensed knowledge or against his erroneous conscience he acknowledge in Trinitie Iesus Christ the second person, yea the Iewes had sinned mortally if they had not cru­cified Christ according to their erring consci­ences. Againe to beleeue in Christ, if false rea­son propound it as euill, is euill, yea to worship the deuill beeing deceiued by the same reason, is not onely not a sinne, but a good worke. O Catholike doctrine! Then for the second table; if a man leauing his wife, and going into ano­ther countrie, marry another, and after repen­ting himselfe would leaue her, affirming his former wife to be aliue, and the Church suffer him not, beeing ignorant of the trueth of that his assertion, although this latter marriage bee nought and the man consequently an adulterer (Deare mother marke this stuffe) the woman being excused by ignorance, yet compelled by the disciplin [...] of the Church, his obedience ex­cuseth him. This is grosse and knowne adulte­ry [Page 103]excused by these holy Catholicks: false rea­son and erring conscience ruleth this kingdōe of darkenesse so shamefully If this be not liber­tinisme, what is? Alas why might not this fa­uour be shewed in Queene Maries daies that an erring conscience should excuse? Why were men and women then compelled to doe contrary to their consciences, which at worst must be granted to be erroneous consciences. Nay see their partiality yet more: for if one of their prelats command what a mans erring cō ­science stardeth at, then they say such a man ought to lay away that his conscience and o­bey his prelate. And why not when God cō ­mandeth should a man doe the like? O blinde guides, what doctrine is this? if the commande­ment of an inferiour officer or magistrate bind not when the superiour as King or Emperour commandeth the contrary, how may an er­ring conscience euer bind me against the Lord? Gods booke is so farre from allowing this er­ring conscience, and this pretēsed knowledge, that it onely alloweth good, and suffereth not euill to be done, that good may come of it.

Surely, I see more harshnesse in the do­ctrine then I did before. But on the other side to compell and force any body by lawes and penalty, before the conscience be fully perswa­ded, [Page 104]is it not as harsh and hard to?

VVhere there is an honest plaine mea­ning to indeauour to be perswaded and resol­ued, god forbidde but some time should bee graunted. And I thinke it is so in all places. But propound the matter thus: whether a godly prince after a time giuen & meanes graunted to be taught and instructed, and after al gentle­nes & patience vsed, his subjects refusing to be taught, and contemning that gratious & great fauour, continuing still perve [...]sly and obstinate­ly in Idolatrie, and superstition, whether I say, then by lawes and punishments to compel thē to the true worship of God, be so harde and harsh? And then truth wil answer that it is not, but iust, godly, and fit. For not onely to main­taine publike peace is the sword giuen, but also to see that God be serued according to his cō ­mandements, [...]trieis cal [...]amans [...]tum. that is, both the tables are cōmit­ted to him, & the breaches of both ought by him to be punished, otherwise man should bee regarded more then God, & the lesser duties more then the greater. In which holy and reli­ous duty hath not the magistrate god for his patterne, who after words of admonition giuē to his own elect & deare children, if they take no place, cōpelleth as it were by crosses & rods of his fatherly loue to the bettering of their course & leauing of euill? Yea is not our own [Page 105]practise so with our own children, if gentle ad­monition will not serue? wherevpō the saying sprāge; he that spareth the rod hateth the child. what shall we say to the Scriptures, that are as plaine for the warrāt of this matter as we need to desire: did not Nabuchodonosor make a law that euery people, nation, and language, which spak any blasphemy against the god of Sidrach &c. should be drawn in peeces,Dan. 3.29. &. their houses made a [...]akes? Darius also made another decree chap 6. In the book of Chronicles Asa destroi­eth Idolatry, & cōmandeth his people to serue the true God,2. Chro. 14.14 yea he sweareth them, and depo­seth his mother for adulterie: whose erroneous conscience was in all likelihood as strōg as any Papists for his popery. In the book of Ezra we read that the king of Persia made a decree that the Iewes should build their temple, that they should haue all things necessarie for their sacri­fices, that they might offer sweet odours vnto the God of heauen, & pray for the kings life, & the life of his sonns. Also he made another law that whosoeuer should alter that sentence,a penal stat [...] the wood should be pulled down from his house and set vp, and he hanged thereon, & his house made a dunghil for this.Ezra. 6.11. And the god that hath caused his name to dwell their (saith that lawe) destroy all kings and people that put their hand to alter and destroy this house of God [Page 106]which is in Hierusalem: Idarius haue made a decree, let it be done with speede. After againe (which I pray you good mother to marke) authority is giuen to set iudges and arbiters which may iudge all the people that is beyond the riuer,p. 7.25. euen al that knowe the lawe of God: and to teach all that know it not: and whoso­euer will not obey the law of God & the kings lawe (saith that statute) let him haue iudgemēt without delay: whether it be vnto death or pu­nishment, to confiscation of goodes or to im­prisonment. What lawe did euer any prince make more plaine without any regard to a pretended conscience wanting true grounde out of the law of god? For if that might either then or nowe be allowed, what lawe coulde holde, against which he that list not to be re­formed, would not obiect his erroneous con­science? VVhat gouernment could any prince in the world settle and establish? Away there­fore with this idle dreame of a pretended con­science, and marke how neuer in any gouern­ment it was regarded after waies and meanes vsed for the reformation of it, but euer subie­cted to the penaltie of the lawe, beeing indeede an obstinacy both against god and prince, wor­thy punishment. In the newe testament is it not saide,Luk. 14.23. Goe into the high vvaies anà compell [Page 107]to come in that my house my be full. I forgotte to remember you of that lawe and penall sta­tute made by the king of Ninive,Ionah. 3. which was so well liked of god: but you may now thinke of it, and adde it to the rest of the olde testa­ment. If we looke at practise, Polonia, Russia, Lituania were forced at the commaundement of their rulers to forsake their auntient Idols,Munst. Cosm. 4. p. 894.902. L. 3. p. 719.74 and to receiue baptisme. Good princes also maintained long and sharpe warres to compell the Saxons and Vandals to the faith, &c. The lawes of this realme [blessed be god] force to nothing but what is directly prooued in scrip­ture. And the constraint is not outragious with fire and sword, but tempered with mer­cy, that is, free from losse of life and limme, such as the true Church of god neuer disliked and Christian princes alwaies vsed with great and good successe. It is tempered also with good instruction to forsake error, wherewith Christ is dishonoured and his trueth defaced. Romish Catholicks revenge the smallest contempt of their idle ceremonies with vnsufferable tor­ments. Their prelats make it their occupation to persecute to death all sorts, ages, and Sexes which refuse their schoole-tricks or dregges of their Clementines or decretalls Howe then can they finde fault with any due compulsion [Page 108]full of mercy and profit to all that be not mali­tiously froward: yea all of them both Clergie and laity promised in baptisme to hold this faith, therefore they may be compelled to per­forme their promise. Gratian, Theodosius, Ar­cadius, Honorius, and other Christian princes with conuenient sharpnes of positiue lawes, a­merced, banished, and diuersly punished here­tickes. And these coactions when the Dona­tists railed on them with open mouth, S. Au­gustin defended and commended, writing to Vincentius thus. Thinkest thou (saith he) that no man ought to the forced vnto righteousnes, [...]pist. 49. whē thou readest that the master said to his seruāts compest them to come in? and also that Paul was forced by losse of his eies, a greater punishment then losse of landes and goodes. Mark [...] Christ here first compelling, after teaching: striking; then comforting. Let them not mislike that they are forced but examine whereto they are forced. How doe kings (saith he) serue the Lord in feare but when they forbid and punish with religious seuerity those things that are done a­gainst the commandement of God, as Hezeki­ah did by destroying the groaues and temples built against the precepts of God, as did Iosiah the king of Niniveh, Nabuchodonosor, &c. S. Ambrose saith, Quoniam futurum iudicium [Page 109]Deus statuit, & nullum perire vult, hoc in secu­lo rectores ordinauit, vt terrore interposito om­nibus velut paedagogi sint, in epist. ad. Rom. c. 13. ne in paenam incidāt futuri iudicei. For asmuch as God hath appoin­ted a future and finall iudgement in the vvorld to come, and vvould not that any should perish, he hath ordained rulers in this present worlde, to be as it were schoolemasters to all to keepe them through terrour that they incurre not the penaltie of the iudgement to come. Thus we see scripture, reason, practise, fathers, all allowing compulsion of an erroneous conscience or pre­tensed knowledge, which surely is enough to any moderate mind desiring satisfactiō in true simplicitie, and not making couers for vngodly obstinacie in subtile hypocrisy.

Sonne your answeres are so reasonable, that I will still obiect, to heare your answeres. What if I say God hath made vs free, therefore there is no reason any should be compelled.

Then will I answere (Good Mother) that euen our first parentes, who had freewill, had also both a lawe giuen them of God, and a penaltie added to the same if they should transgresse it: much more now then may the like be done, when we haue both loste our selues and our freewill [Page 110](to vse the wordes of S. Austin:) By no lawe is the will compelled, for that still is either free or it looseth his name of will. But men according to their bodies may be forced as well to keepe the commandements of the first table concer­ning dutie to God, as the commandements of the second table concerning dutie to men.

But againe I vvill say, this maketh men hypocrites, when outwardly they doe that which in their hearts they mislike.

And againe I answere, that the drift of the magistrate is not to make them hypocrits, but by these meanes to drawe them willingly to doe that which thy are enioyned. And if it be not so, that is their fault, not the magistrates. So did God with Ionas, Paul, and others. So saith S Augustin of his owne cirtie fallen to Donatisme,ug. contr. auden [...] epi­ [...]m. l. 2. c. 17. that by outvvard lavves they were brought to invvard knovvledge, and so he saw the benefit of this course, that the sword should raigne with the word, although at first he saith it vvas his opinion that none should be compel­led before he vvere perswaded. And S Chryso­stome saith, Multi sunt qui cùm virtutem pri­mùm respectu magistratus exercuerunt, posted etiam illam propter Dei timorem amplectun­tur. a Spist. ad [...]. c. 13. Many men vvhereas at first they be haue themselues vertuously in regard of the magi­strate, [Page 111]and for feare of punishment, afterwarde doe it gladly, euen for feare of God and in reue­rence of his maiestie. VVe see the iudgement of this holy father: that compulsion by the ma­gistrate is necessarie and profitable, though at first it procure but externall obedience, and his reason which followeth is very good, Crassio­res enim (saith he) non adeo futura tangunt at­que praesentia: ibidem. for carnall men are not so much touched vvith future as present thinges: that is (as I vnderstand him) the torments of hell in the world to come doe not so much preuaile with them, as the punishment of the Magi­strate presently to be inflicted vpon them. And that Epistle of S. Augustin is most worthie of­ten reading, his 48 epistle.

Yet forced Religion pleaseth not God.

Surely, it lesse displeaseth with one part to doe my duty, then with both partes to of­fend. To come to Church with my bodies, where by Gods grace I may be caught, as S. Augustin was at S. Ambrose his sermon, then both with bodie and mind to disobey not on­ly prince but God. A part of my duty is some­thing, though it be not all.

The magistrate cannot giue faith, there­fore he should not compell to faith.

He doth not compell to faith, but to the [Page 112]meanes whereby God vseth to giue saith, namely, to hearing: for faith commeth by hea­ring, and hearing by the word of God; which howe profitable it may be by Gods mercy, hath beene alreadie said: and the words of Da­uid shewe, when he saith, It is good for me that I haue beene in trouble, &c. and the words of Ieremy, Castigasti, & Castigatus sum, thou hast chastned me, and I haue beene chastned. The words of Esay, Vexatio dat intellectum Vexa­tion and trouble vvorke vnderstanding: The wordes of wise Salomon, Da sapienti occasio­nem, & sapientior erit, giue a wise man occa­sion and he vvill be vviser.

Why then did not Christ cōpell any?

Christ was no magistrate: and we speake of the Magistrate, and what he may doe by his office and authority giuen him by God.

Surely Sonne, great is trueth, and pre­vaileth, I will trouble you no further in this matter.

I will then deare mother, shut it vppe with S. Augustins wordes to the Donatists, Non bene facere legibus cogimini, sed malè fa­cere prohibemini. Nam bene facere nemo po­test, nisi elegerit &c. You are not compelled by lawes, to doe well, but you are forbidden and hin­dered to doe euill: For no man can doe well vn­lesse [Page 113]he vvillingly doe it: Timor autem paenarū cisi nondum habeat dilectionem bonae conscien­tiae, saltem intra claustra cogitationis coercet malam cupiditatem: And the feare of punish­mēt although it haue not as yet the loue of good conscience, yet at least it restraineth euill with­in the hidden cogitation Numquid quia mores optimi libertate voluntatis eliguntur, contra Petil. l. 2. c. 83. ideò mo­res pessimi non legis integritate puniuntur? Because good manners are chosen by freedome of will, therefore are not ill manners punished by integritie of lawe? In a worde, Aliter non per­sequimur vos nisi quemadmodum veritas per­sequitur falsit atem: We persecute you no other­wise, but as trueth persecuteth falshood, namely to saluation, not to destruction.

Surely, your answeres, I must confesse, are farre otherwise, then either I looked for at your handes, or thought coulde haue beene giuen in your cause. Wherefore I say againe we on our side are greatly wronged, when we are forbidden to read your bookes, or to conferre with you. But yet if some learned man were here to dispute with you, happely he would contrarie this which to me seemeth plaine.

Surely mother, euen this also which you name is a good point be touched. For [Page 114]indeede it is an vsuall shift of men and women thus giuen to say. I cannot answere you, but if such and such were here they would: and, would God we might haue some disputation, then should wee see which part were better. Yea such bragges are made by some learned of your side, to blinde the eyes of the people, as if either there neuer had bin triall of their strēgth this waie, or as if they alwaies had had the vp­per hand in disputation; when God knoweth, and the world can witnesse herein their weak­nes and great foiles, to the glorie of God and victory of his truth in the hearts of many thou­sandes both men and vvomen. For confirma­tion whereof let me remember you of the di­sputation at Berne in Heluetia, in king Henry the 8, his daies, which is thus published in Chronicle to the worldes knowledge. There was in ☞the yeare of our Lord 1527. in the moneth of december order taken by the senate and peo­ple of Berne, whose power amongst all the Switzers chiefly excelleth in regard of the va­rience of religion that then was and still more & more increaseth, that there should be a pub­like disputation in that cittie, and to that ende they sent forth writings of the same, and called thither all the Bishops bordering neere about them, as the bishop of Constance, Basil, Se­dune, [Page 115]Lausanna, warning them to come both themselues and to bring with them their de­vines, or els to loose all such professions as they had lying within the boundes of their pre­cinct. They also appointed learned men amōgst them, preachers of the Gospell to be readie to dispute against all commers in defence of their doctrine, prescribing the disputation to be de­cided onely by the authority of the olde and newe testament. They graunted safe conduct to all that would come. They appointed like­wise that all things should be done modestly without iniurie and brawling words, and that euery one should haue leaue to speake his minde freely, and with such deliberation that euerie mans saying might be receiued by the notarie and penned. And to the end men might come thither better prepared, they caused their ministers to publish such questions as they should dispute on before hand in writing, that euery man might studie to say what he coulde against them, and they were tenne in num­ber.

• 1. The true Church riseth out of Gods worde, continueth in the same, and heareth the voice of none other.
• 2. The true Church maketh no lawes, with­out the word.
• [Page 116]3. Traditions binde not, but as firre as they are agreeable to the written word.
• 4. Christ onely hath satisfied for the sinnes of the vvorld, and therefore if any make any o­ther waie, the same denieth Christ.
• 5. The body and blood of Christ cannot be re­ceiued really and corporally by the testimony of scripture.
• 6. There is no place of purging after this ☞life, and therfore all dirges, prayers, ceremonies, lampes, tapers, &c. bestowed for the dead profitte nothing.
• 7. Christ onely is to be prayed vnto as the mediator of mankind to God the father.
• 8. The masse is wicked and derogatory to Christs sacrifice offered for vs.
• 9. Images ought not to be set vp in Church­es and praied vnto.
• 10. Marriage is allowed by God vnto all de­grees.

These things I say, thus agreed vpon before hand were sent abroad to al places, and the day appointed the 7, of Ianuarie for the disputati­on to beginne. At which day (nowe see the courage of Catholicks) not one of the bishops before named came: neuerthelesse the citty of Basil, Zuricke, Schasuse, Abbacelle, Sangallium, Mallusia with the neighbours of Rhetia, also [Page 117]they of Strawsburge Vlmes, Ausburge, Lin­daue, Constance and Isue sent thither their Embassadours. The doctors of Berne began the disputation, whereat were present Zuinglius, Oecolampadius, Bucerus, Capito, and Blaure­cus with others. One the other side of them that were opponents, the chiefe was Conza­dus and Tregerus, a frier Augustine, who no way able to prooue his cause out of the olde and newe testament, as was appointed and decreed at first, desired that he might al­ledge Doctours: which the moderators refu­sing to graunt, because it was contrarie to the order appointed, he to his great shame, and to the preiudice of all his side departed out of the place and would dispute no more. The disputation endured 19. daies and in the ende by the greater part of that assembly the pro­testantes hadde the victorie, and the Papists the foile. And it was agreed vpon that the themes before mentioned were all true and agreeable to Gods holy worde, that they shoulde be ratified and proclaimed accor­ding to promise, and that masses, altars, i­mages, &c. should in all places be abo­lished: So they were at Constance, Berne, and Geneva, they causing the day and yeare of this reformation from poperie to Chri­stianity [Page 118]to be ingrauen in a pillar with golden letters for a perpetuall memorie to all posteri­tie. This was anno 1528. After the rumour of this disputation, Reformation followed at Strawsburge, Basil, and other places, to Gods great glorie, the comfort of his people, & the true witnessing to the world what strength Romish Catholicks haue in disputation, when they are desired to keepe to the scriptures, which onely is the ground of trueth and con­science. I may not repeat others at large, but blessed be God the like triall of them was made and the like foile giuen them at Witten­berge, and Ravensburge, at Ausburge, at Spire at Wormes, at Pois, and here in England, at London, at Cambridge, at Oxford and in pri­vate houses and consistories of Bishops often. That notable seruice of Beza, at Pois gone through the worlde, when the Cardinall of Lotharinge wished that either Beza had beene dumme, or they his auditours and aduersaries dea [...]e, will witnesse for euer what pith popish falshood hath had against Christian trueth held and taught by protestants, whē they came to disputation. Reade our owne Chronicles of the cowardly refusall of the popish Bishops to dispute at the happy entrance of her Maiesty to the Crowne, howe also they behaued thē ­selues [Page 119]in Queene Maries time, when one of them said, vve had the word, but they had the sword, &c. Indeede, indeede, the sword and the fire are their best arguments, and in blood they build whatsoeuer they build. Neuer, ne­uer, therefore let them boast of disputation, or say they haue prospered by it: for we neede not to feare them, God be blessed, nor they to bragge of any winning. There neuer wanted yet, neither euer shall want both learned and vnlearned on our side, whose spirits they shall not be able to resist: writing, preaching, dispu­ting, they are the Gospels weapons and waies to build by; Popery must take sōe other course as yet in all times they haue done which holde that plough. O that for further proofe of this point mē would be content without preiudice to read the Acts & monuments of this our na­tiue countrie, and English Church where we liue, marking with a minde desirous of trueth what answers haue beene made by simple wo­men, maides, and girles vnto great Bishops and Doctoures in causes of religion & faith, to the great astonishment of their aduersaries, & the high glorie of God seene in their weaknesse so strengthened by him. But nothig can bee more grieuous to that Church then to graunt leaue to doe this, which surely bewrayeth they [Page 120]are afraide. Hence come their lies and slaun­ders invented against that book, which would full soone be discried of vs woulde we reade it. If any haue beene in Westminster ball, at tharraignment of a misdoer, we willingly heare him a whole day to tell vs the manner of it, what was obiected, what answered, what replyed, and what concluded: yet we will not read with our owne eies, hauing it so nota­bly penned for vs, the conventings of holy Christian men and women before their iud­ges for matter of faith and saluation. We wil talke of disputation, disputations, and ô that men might be allowed to speake freely with­out daunger of lawe what they are able: and when the time was for theirs to speake what they would or coulde, and wee stoode at the barre in bolts and yron to answere their obiections and profound learning, we will not nowe reade what was then done & said on both sides; Surely I will say of that booke what I wish tried, that after the ground of ho­ly scriptures, it will yeelde the greatest con­tentment. Men shall see men, women shall see women, age shall see age, and youth youth brought to the triall, howe they answered, howe they suffered, howe flesh startled, [Page 121]howe the spirit conquered, and in a worde, howe God shewed his mercie and power infinite waies. If we finde they speake well, we may embrace it, if otherwise leaue it. The Lord hath giuen vs wisdome and rea­son, and of his grace also, I trust to be able to discerne, if we would reade. O why should our enemies hoodwincke vs so that we must neuer see but with their eies. If the charge of this book be to much for one, an whole parish might ioyne together and vse it by turners, as leisure serued.

Sonne, I see you are ready for eue­uery way, and therefore hauing gone thus farre in triall of what you could say, and now being come to our iourneys ende, I will goe no further with you at this time, but reserue the particular pointes of controuersie till wee haue some fitte leisure and opportu­nity againe.

Good Mother, when and howe you please. But nowe ere we part I beseech you let me speake something to you with out offence. I will not say much.

Speake on, you shall doe more Then as yet you haue done, if you any way offend me.

[...] religious [...]ite or a ver­ [...]ous child to [...] mother.My suite is then, most deare mother, with a melting heart of an humble childe, that you would vouchsafe to thinke of that which hath nowe beene spoken, as also of this feare, full course which you haue to long liked of in not comming to Church, not receiuing the sacrament, not hearing Gods word, not obey­ing the lawes of your dread and gratious So­ueraigne, and of your natiue countrie. It woundeth your credit and estimation with the best, it hurteth my father, daunteth your children, blemisheth your house, and wrongeth your friendes both neare & deare most grieuously. But ô father I say againe, my heart bursteth and bleedeth to see howe he is eclipsed by it, in comparison of others to whome he is no way inferiour, either in birth, in liuing, in wis­dome and experience, or in any gift in body or minde, neither hath his countrie that good from him, or he that good from his countrie that might be had if you were reformed. For how may he be thought so fit to rule others abroad, that cannot be obeied of his owne at home. His children therefore want him, his friends want him, his seruants want him, yea he himselfe wanteth himselfe many times to his griefe. Other things also I could name that better may be conceiued in your tender loue [Page 123]towardes him then by me expressed at this time. O mother pardon your owne flesh in speaking thus boldly to you, and knowe that it is but a part of your selfe that speaketh to your selfe in tender louect dutie. When first my fa­ther matched with you, he hoped of strēgth & countenance euery way to be increased to him both by your selfe and your excellent qualities wherewith God hath indued you, and by your friendes and house, to whome by this marri­age he should be vnited: not of any abashment and abatement in al these to him and his poore children the pledges of loue betwixt you. And thus might it be it you would, but alas, thus is it not, because hitherto you would not. A fewe false charmers haue sunke deeper into your heart with their deceits, then all your best friendes can with their faithful aduertisements. And what is this els in you and others of your perswasion, but that which euer hath bin done by the olde serpent the head and guide of these charmers. In the Acts of the Apostles we read that the Iewes hating deadly the trueth of the Gospell preached by the Apostles, and desirous to vexe them for it, deuised this as the best means to stirre vp certaine honest and devout women against them, which women should vvork with their friendes to expell such preachers from a­mongest [Page 124]them. Nowe why women? but be­cause Satan hath euer had his aduātage against this weake vessell? why devout women? but becavse a religious minde meaning well, yet wāting knowledge is both quicklyer deceiued with shewe of religion, and hottelier pursueth what it once beginneth, doing more hurt in that false deuotion, then many others not so well thought of. And why honourable wo­men? but that might being added to blinde zeale both by power and example Satans cause might goe forwarde. These charmers, saith the Apostle againe, shall still be creeping into houses & lead captiue simple women. By which often repeated name of women in the scrip­ture, all good women are effectually warned to beware. Were there cause for you or any others thus to doe, it no way could stand with religion to diswade you, and in my selfe to you Mother, it should be a double sinne, because I am yours and aboue all wordly fauours ought to wish your eternall safetie before others: but the Lord knoweth, whose trueth is with vs, that there is no cause. And whatsoeuer by the power of all popish learning hath beene al­leadged as any cause, we haue answered soundly out of Gods booke, our answeres standing without reply vnto this day. Our [Page 125]seruice theeefore is lawfull, our praiers are ho­ly, our meetings are Christian: and no better way to be resolued hereof, then part by part to examine them. So haue some done and beene reformed, wondering howe so great slaun­ders could be raised where no cause is found. The authoritie also of lawefull gouernment commaundeth but lawefull things, increa­seth the dutie to obey, and presseth with no smaller weight then damnation as the Apo­stle flattely affirmeth if we resist.Rom. 1 [...]. Conceits may not take place, where such euidence of trueth doth gainsay them. If I had a conceit or per­swasion that all meates would kill me, must I certainely die for want of meate and re­taine my errour? The Galatians prescribed themselues amisse in some things, and the Apostle thought it a reason sufficient to re­forme them, to tell them that such a perswa­sion was not the perswasion of him that cal­led them, meaning of God.Gal. 5.8. And the scrip­tures phrase in the matter of perswasion is to adde through the Lord. Rom. 14.24. 2. Thes. 3.4. I am persvva­ded through the Lord: which is worthie no­ting. Deare Mother, the Lords annointed ouer you, her sacred Maiestie, comman­deth this dutie, and there is no deuill of hell can prooue this charge vnlawefull. [Page 126]Therefore by the bonde of a subiect true and faithfull you ought to obey. My father with sighes and groanes of a troubled heart desireth it, and therefore by the bonde of a wife louing and dutifull you ought to obey. And, which is the greatest of all, the God that made you cō ­mandeth it to you and all his seruants: therfore by the bonde of a childe of God you ought to obey. The bondes are great, the duty is holy, the obedience is euerlasting peace, comfort, & life, the danger also is great to striue to offend. And therefore happie is that heart that yeel­deth betimes. If by reading their bookes this wound hath beene giuen you, then reade our answeres and let God heale. They haue writ­ten no matter of moment these 40. yeares in our english tongue, but fully and soundly is it answered to Gods glorie. Yea their new testa­ment, wherein is their whole strength heaped togither, is learnedly answered to the full con­tentment of any not desperatly giuen ouer to his owne blindnesse. In matter of lawe concer­ning the goodes of this world, you will heare contrarie opinions and choose with iudgemēt. In matter of phisicke concerning your bodie, you will doe the like, & beat out a trueth. Shall onely the soule be neglected and pinned on o­ther mens sleeues? ô God forbidde. He hath [Page 127]promised that neuer deceiued, euē in this mat­ter also, Aske and you shall haue, seeke and you shall finde, knocke and it shall be opened vnto you. Thus shall we finde their great wickednesse in denying the scriptures to be read of them that haue soules to be saued as well as themselues: their taking away the cuppe from the lay peo­ple when Christs institution was, Drinke ye all of this: their leauing the second commande­ment out of their catechismes, because it forbid deth Images, their multitude of bodily exerci­ses, when the scripture saith they profit little: their killing of princes, when the Lord saith. Touch not mine annointed, and Dauids heart smote him for cutting off but the lappe of Sauls garment, and to no worse ende then to make him see his innocency, and his guardes negli­gence: their freeing of subiects from their obe­dience, and alliegance when it is written, Let euery soule be subiect &c. Their direct cros­sings of the written worde as, when it is saide: No man commeth to the father but by me, they say we haue many mediatours by whome we may come to the father besides Christ: when it is said, Thou shalt not commit adulte­ry, they say, if not chastly, yet charily, and find in one fish ponde of Gregory 6000 childrens skulls by that wicked charynes: whē the Lord [Page 128]saith, You erre because you knowne not the scrip­tures, they say directly contrarie you will erre if you meddle with the scriptures: when the Lord saieth, when you haue done all say you are vnprofitable seruants; they say, we may doe workes of supererogation, more then we are bound, and so merit for others . Also when the Lord forbiddeth a lusting looke, their Pope giueth licence not onely to erect a stews wherein not long since were nūbred 40000. harlots that paid a yeerely rent, and vpon the 12 day at night were seene goe into the Popes pallace 17. coaches full of curtizans. But (ô hor­rible) euen [...]o practise the sinne against nature, and not to be named, during the 3. hotte mo­neths in the yeare, Iune, Iuly, August. Al which with many moe may giue any Christian man or woman not finally forsaken of God and left to a reprobate mind, a true tast of that Cur­sed religion, and cause them iustly to reason thus: 1 Popery maintaineth flat Idolatrie diuers waies,therefore not true. 2 It alloweth other grosse sinnes forbidden of God, therefore not true. 3 It nuzleth the hart of man in securitie, therefore not true. 4 It robbeth the conscience of comfort and hope by maintaining doubting,therefore not true. 5 It destroieth the ordinance of God lawfull magistracy and loyall obediēce, [Page 129]therefore not true. 6 It flieth the light and nou­risheth darkenesse therefore not true, 7 It sprea­deth it selfe and groweth by lies, false testimo­nies,slaunders, dreames, reuelations, counter­feit holinesse and fained miracles, therefore not true. Deare Mother, open your eies, and regard your soule. Be as you should be, wise without wilfulnesse, zealous without superstition, dis­creet to discerne, carefull to beware regarding God, prince, and countrie before any spirituall enchaunters whatsoeuer: yea regarding your selfe and my deare father, with vs your poore children, who rise and fall with your well and ill doing. I am no enemie that begge this of you, but euen your owne bowells who haue liued in you, and neuer desire to liue without you, your child, your own, by God and nature bound vnto you. O Mother behold my teares thinke of my heart, prostrate before you vpon my face, I beg it for his sake who gaue me to you; whose loue is life, whose trueth is ioy, whose power and goodnesse is infinit to ho­nour them that honour him. Mine eies behold you for some worde of comfort, cast me not away for Iesus sake without it.

Deare child arise, & let my silence now content thee, It shall not be long ere we talke a­gain. Your father cōmeth towards vs, whome [Page 130]I pray you goe meere, and let him not knowe as yet of our speech. When he was turned frō her towards his father, shee caught the house vpon her, and into her closet shee went with hast, where all bewashing her selfe with teares, shee brake out in this sort. O my God and gra­tious father, thou hast raised out of mine owne bodie a teacher for me that I might not scorne him, and who by me receiued life concerning his bodie, he by thee hath offred me life con­cerning my soule, if I will receiue it. I cannot, I cannot denie his reasons, I feele them cōuince me, I haue no excuse against such trueth, and such a teacher, but I am caught, I am caught, ô my God, if I will not damnably breake out of thy net againe, and runne desperatly headlong vpon mine owne destruction. VVo is me that I so long haue erred from thy trueth harkning to the vaine inventions of mans braine. Thy word I knowe is trueth, and why should not I ground my selfe and soule vpon it? Thy worde I heare is able to make me wise vnto saluation, and so can no writing of man. To the lavv and [...]o the testimonie, saith thy Prophet, I nowe re­member, and if they speake not according to this, it is because there is no light in thē. VVho hath grounded vpon this rocke, and hath mis­carried? yet my soule knoweth how popery [Page 131]abhorreth this lantarne: we may not read it, we may not goe to Church to heare it, we may not haue it translated for vs, but darknes, dark­nes, that is stil the mother of devotion, though the holy ghost hath said, Search the scriptures and be not children in vnderstanding. Howe can this then be the true religion, the truth, the light, that forbiddeth al meanes of knowledge? They binde and burn, I cannot denie, the Saints of God, & bathe themselues in innocēt blood. All is hypocrisie and vain glorie, I see, I see, that ruleth amongst them. O father strengthen me, ô Sauiour pittie me, ô holy ghost confirme me and finish this worke begunne in me to the eternall praise of thy name, and the profitable mo­uing of others by my example that are abused and deceiued by these craftie iuglers and de­ceitfull workers, as I was. Amen, Amen.