I neuer thought of this queſtion before, but I ſee well enough that they could not carie all with them, for ſome parts certainely were not made before they went to to preach, nay I a'm not aſſured whether anie part of the new teſtament was made before their diſperſion from Hieruſalem, ſo that well may they haue caried the ould Teſtament with thē, if they thought it ſitting, but for the new, they could not, if I be not miſtakē.

It is verie true. I will tell you therefore, cozen, how the authoritie of the ſcripture, that is,Now the neW Teſtament Was pro aga ted. of the new Teſtament, came into the church. An Apoſtle or Diſciple writing a booke or Epiſtle cōmunicated it to that church or Countrie wherein he preached or to which he writte it, that church cōmunicated it to their neighbours as the worke of ſuch an Apoſtle, ſo by litle and litle it grew frō one countrie to an other vntill it was ſpredd ouer the whole Chriſtian world. So that ſome countries had not the new Teſtament complete, (that is, all the bookes of it) for a long time. Wherefore no wonder that ſome haue doubted of ſeuerall parts thereof, being not able to auerre, as not aſſured (by reaſon of ſome accident) that ſuch bookes were truly the workes of ſuch an Apoſtle or Diſciple, which not withſtāding,Why the canon of ſcripture is cheefely to be had from Rome. better intelligēce being gotten might be afterwards receiued for ſcripture. And here you may note by the way, that the Roman church is that church to which in reaſon wee ought to giue moſt credit touching the canon of the ſcripture. For Rome being at that time • that is, at leaſt for the firſt 300 yeares) to the Chriſtian world or rather to all the Chriſtians diſperſed in diuers parts of the world, as London is to England; And that wee ſee the collection of things eſtimable, diſperſed in ſeuerall Prouinces of our Kingdome, is ſooner and better made in London then in anie other part of our Countrie, it muſt needes follow that the collection of the Holy ſcripture, or new Teſtament, was more exactly faiſable at Rome, then at anie other place. But this by the way. For my ayme is to make you iudge, whether anie one ſubſtantiall point,The ſtate of the questiō. which the Apoſtles whith common conſēt preached through the whole world, compared to anie one booke of the new Teſtament, which ſoeuer you thinke firſt or beſt receiued, whether, I ſay, of theſe two haue deſcended vnto vs with more certaintie, the one to be the Apoſtles doctrine, the other to be ſuch an Apoſtle's booke?

I should diſtinguish your queſtion, for ether it may be compared to that particular Prouince or church where the Apoſtle him ſelfe deliuered it both in word and writing, or to the whole church. And I confeſſe that in reſpect of the whole church, that point of doctrine which is euerie where preached muſt needes haue more certaintie: but where both are equaly deliuered by the ſame Apoſtle to the ſame church, I should thinke the worke should haue more authoritie thē the word. For t'is an eaſie matter to let slipp a word ſome times, Whereas writing requireth a more ſetled conſideration.

If the queſtion be but of a particular church or Prouince, I doubt it will not be ſufficient to giue vs a firme authoritie for ether one or the other, vnleſſe we add more circumſtances then we haue declared. And the reaſon is, becauſe one Prouince maye haue had Religion ſo ruinated in it by the incurſion of infidells, that recouering thē ſelues after a long time they may as well miſtake one booke for an other, as one doctrine for an other, and ſo this point is not much to our pourpoſe. Although euen in this caſe the doctrine taught by word of mouth hath theſe aduantages. That it is deliuered to manie, the booke to few, or in ſome one place. The doctrine heard and vnderſtood by manie, the booke only to ſuch as can reade, nor to all them nether, but to ſuch as are carefull. The booke belonge's not much to the practize of the multitude, the doctrine gouernes their whole liues. The booke brought often times by ſome one mā, as ſome meſsēger if it be an Epiſtl, or other wiſe ſent from ſome other place or frō ſome one perſon, as from Titus of Timotheus, to whom it was firſt written, and vpon whoſe authoritie only the whole veritie muſt originally rely. But to returne to our caſe. Doe you not ſee that the whole church truſteth ſome one particular man at the firſt vpon whom she buildeth hir beliefe tht this is ſuch an Apoſtles worke, that is, ſcripture? But for anie materiall point of doctrine she relyeth vpō the vniuerſall knowledge of thē who heard it preached in diuers parts of the world. So that, as I doe not intende to ſay, the one is certaine, the other not, (for a particular churche's authoritie may be certaine in ſome circonſtances) yet I muſt needes ſay that betwixt theſe two certainties, there is ſuch a differē ce, that if the one were to bring in verdict vpon the other, it would be much more forcible and euident to conclude, that this booke is ſcripture, becauſe it is according and conformable to the doctrine taught and preached, then that this doctrine is the Apoſtle's, becauſe it is conformable to this booke. For if it be true, that the whole church once relyed vpon ſome one particular church for this veritie, it can neuer come to paſſe that the certaintie of this booke proue greater then was the authoritie of that particular church at that time, And conſequently the ſame compariſon which is to be made betwixt the authoritie of this particular church and of the vniuerſall church, the ſame, I ſay, is to be made betwixt the certaintie of this booke's being ſcripture, and of this point of doctrine's being catholike and Apoſtolike. And for the inconuenience you were jealous of, it falleth out quitt contrarie. For whether we conſidere the inſpiration and aſſiſtance of the holy ghoſt, or the induſtrie aed carefullneſſe of man, you shall euer finde that the end is more principally aymed at, then the meanes to compaſſe the end, and likewiſe amongſt diuers meanes the moſt immediate to the end is ſtill moſt aymed at, wherefore in our caſe the end both of writing and ſpeaking being the deliuerie of this doctrine for the good of the people, no doubt, I ſay, but that both the Aſſiſtā ce of the holy ghoſt, and the care of man tendeth more principally to the deliuerie of this doctrine then to other things that came in by chance, in which only there might be a slipp, as you immagine. Wherefore ſithence tradition containeth not all the words the Apoſtles ſpoke, but meerely what belong's to Chriſtiā doctrine, (which was principally deliuered, and the cheefe errand of the Apoſtles) and that in the ſcriptute manie things are written vpon occaſion and as it were by the bye, no doubt but in both theſe reſpects, to wit, of the aſſiſtance of the holy ghoſt, and of the care of man, the certaintie will be greater of the doctrine deliuered by word of mouth, thē of the holy writt. Beſides the slipps you ſpeake of, are when things are only once deliuered, or ſpoken without great premeditation, whereas this doctrine was a thing perpetually beaten on, ſo as there can be no feare of ſuch slipping.HoW the old Teſtament came to Chriſtians hands. For the ould Teſtamēt as I confeſſe t'is poſſible that the Apoſtles might haue deliuered it in all Countries where they preached; ſo likewiſe I thinke t'is euident that they neuer did it, being that the church hath no ſuch memorie, And that the Canon hath beene doubted of by ſome, and the Iewish Canon alleadged, whereof there had beene no vſe nor neede, if the Apoſtles had left to all churches the booke it ſelf. It is likely therefore that the ould Teſtament was brought in by the firſt Chriſtians' of the Circū ciſion, who accepted of thoſe bookes which they ſaw the Apoſtles honnor and make vſe of, and from them it came to the Gentill Chriſtians, and ſo by litle and litle was accepted of by all the Chriſtian church with the ſame veneration that the Apoſtles and Iewish Chriſtians gaue vnto it. But how ſoeuer shall wee not thinke at leaſt

Surely, vncle for my part I cānot thinke but that the ſcripture hath a more vniuerſall tradition thē anie point of Chriſtian doctrine, or at leaſt then anie of thoſe which are diſputed betwixt vs and the Proteſtants, ſeeing that all Chriſtians doe agree in the acceptation of the ſcripture, and farr fewer in diuers pointes of doctrine. For ſuch churches as are in communion with the church of Rome are no ſuch extraordinarie part of chriſtendome if they were compared to all the reſt.

For the Extent of the churches I cannot certainely tell you the truth, becauſe I feare manie are caled Chriſtiās who haue litle ether in their beliefe or liues to verifie that name. But you know in witneſſes the qualitie is to be reſpected as well, and more thē the quantitie. So that ſuch coūtries, in which Chriſtianitie is vigorous, are to be preferred before a greater Extent of ſuch as are where litle remaines more then the name. But to come neerer to your difficultie, ſuppoſe that in a ſuite in law, one ſide had ſeuen lawfull witneſſes, the other had as manie and twentie knights of the poſt, knowne periured knaues or vnlawfull witneſſes more, would you caſt the other ſide for this wicked rable?

No truly, for ſeing the law doth inualidate their teſtimonie, I should wrong the partie to make anie accompt of them, and therefore I should judge the parties equall.

Why then you ſee that who will challenge a more vniuerſall. Tradition for ſcripture then for doctrine, muſt firſt be certaine that there is no lawfull exception againſt thoſe Chriſtians whom he calleth to witneſſe, to witt, againſt the Armans, Neſtoriās, Eutychians and the like. Now the Catholike church accounteth theſe men wicked in the higheſt degree, that is, guiltie of Hereſie and ſchiſme. And therefore the partie which eſteemeth of their witneſſe, muſt, by taking of them for honneſt men, beare him ſelf for their fellow, and account the Roman church wicked and not fitt for teſtimonie, from whom neuertheleſſe he hath receiued what ſoeuer he hath of Chriſt. Beſides the witneſſe and teſtimonie which theſe men giue, is only that they receiued ſcripture from that church which excluded them from communion at their beginnings, and euer continued in oppoſition againſt them, to witt the Catholike. Wherefore it is euident that their teſtimonie addeth nothing to the teſtimonie of the Catholike church, but only declareth what the teſtifieth, nor conſequently maketh anie traditiō more vniuerſal. Let vs therefore now ſee whether

I doubt not, ſir, but for that end which wee ſeeke, that is, to make a iudge of controuerſies, euerie word, euerie letter, and euerie title muſt be admitted of abſolute and vncontrolable certain • ie, And ſo, I heare, the vulgar edition in latine is commāded to be held amongſt vs. For I eaſily ſee that if anie one ſentence may be quarrelled, euerie one will incurre the ſame hazard, all being equaly deliuered and equaly warranted with reaſon and authoritie.

You ſaie verie well, for where there is no leſſe thē the ſoules of the whole world at the ſtake, I ſee not what aduantage can giue ſufficient ſecuritie, if there remaine anie notable vncertaintie. Our ſauiour ſaith, what can all the world auaile anie man if he looſe his ſoule? So that where the queſtion is ſoule or no ſoule, ſaluation or damnation, nothing leſſe then certaintie can ſerue to proceede vpon. And therefore no doubt but if the Apoſtles had intended to leaue the holy writt for the decider of controuerſies in Religion, they would alſo haue prouided that infalible copies should haue beene kept and come downe to the church to the end of the world. For ſuch care wee ſee that priuat men haue of conſeruing their bargaines and couuenants by making their Indentures vncounterfeitable, and enrolling them in publicke offices, were they are to remaine vncorrupted the like care hath common wealths to conſerue their recordes, ſpecially their laws, keeping the verie originalls or authenticall copies with verie great care. But what neede wee tooke into the examples of ••• en, ſeeing all mightie God in his owne perſon hath giuen vs a paterne, commanding the Deuteronomie to be kept in the Arke, which he would haue to be the authen • icall copie to iudge betwixt him and his people; and this with the greateſt veneratiō that could be imagined, or that euer was giuen to anie thing. But this was impoſſible for the Apoſtles to doe (otherwiſe ſurely the would haue done it, if they had intended that Chriſts written law should haue beene our iudge) by reaſon of the multitudes of nations and languages which hindered that not anie one booke could be conſerued with ſuch ſecuritie and incorruptibilitie as would be requiſite in that caſe, both becauſe of the language, and of the mutabilitie of the world, euer ſubiect to a thouſand accidents, whereby ſuch bookes might fall into the hands of thoſe who would not only neglect them, but ether willfully corrupt, or ſeeke vtterly to deſtroy that which was to be the rule and paterne of Chriſtian faith. And for that which you ſaie is commā ded vs, you conceiue amiſſe. For no wiſe man thinketh that the vulgar edition is ſo well corrected that much may not be mended;How the vulgar edition is to be receiued. but t'is that the church hath ſecured vs that there is nothing againſt Chriſtian faith or behauiour contained in thoſe bookes, which haue ſo long paſſed for ſcripture, and are ſo in deede for the ſubſtance of the bookes, and therefore hath commanded vs not to refuſe this r ••• in anie controuerſie; on diſputation. And this wee, and wee only cā doe, for the churche's ſecuritie •• ſeth out of this that she hath an other more forcible ground of hir faith, to witt, tradition, by which being aſſured what the truth is, she can confidently pronunce that in this booke there is nothing contrarie or preiudiciall therevnto, which no profeſſion that relyeth only vpon ſcripture can doe, becauſe they muſt firſt be aſſured of the text, before they can iudge of the doctrine: wherefore if the text itſelfe neede a iudge, and that it is queſtionable whether this be the true text or no, they muſt needes be at their witts end, according to the principles of raiſon. Let vs therefore ſee what ambiguitie or queſtion falleth vpon the text it ſelfe by the ſucceſſion of ſo manie ages in which it muſt needes haue beene in ſome ſorte conſerued to come to our hands There be three wayes cheefely whereby the text may haue beene corrupted.Three Waies haue corruptions come into the Text. The firſt on ſett pourpoſe, as the fathers accuſe the Heretickes of their times to haue done, and the Iewes alſo are ſuſpected of the ſame. And this kinde, though it extendeth it ſelfe but to few corruptions, yet they come to be ineuitable, whē amōgſt ſoe manie copies none can diſcerne which haue beene ſo abuſed which not; and as it is but in few pointes or places ſo it is in ſuch as bee important and materiall ones. The ſecond ſort of corruptiōs may haue come by the negligence of ſeruants, which copied the Bible, ſome being mercenarie people that made copies to ſell, others wittleſſe people, who greedie and deſirous to haue the Bible out of vanitie, hypocriſie, or the like, cared not for more then to ſaie they had it, and a great part of theſe copiſts may haue erred in writing the Bible by the verie defect of nature, which permitteth not an abſolut exactneſſe in anie thing, and cauſeth a man in his wearineſſe, nay and in his too much warineſſe alſo, to make eſcapes vnwittingly, which be the more dangerous by how much the copies ſeeme more exact, whereby ſome times the beare downe true copies. The third waye of corruption may haue beene by halfe-witted men, who will now and then vndertake to correct copies by ayme and vnderſtāding, who for hauing lighted right in ſome one place, will venter confidently to ſpoile tenne. And of theſe men t'is like before printing began, and copies were not ſo frequent, and ſo a corruption went not farr, t'is like, I ſay, there hath beene diuers, who whē they mett with a place they could not make ſenſe of, and ſaw that a litle change would make it ſenſe, ſuch rash their would eaſily vener to make ſuch a ſmale (as they thought) mutation, not knowing peraduēture how to come to a better copie then their owne: The Hebrew and Greeke Teſtament haue beene verie ſubiect to the firſt ſorte of theſe corruptions, the former being deliuered vnto vs by the profeſſed enimies of Chriſt, who, as it is reported, in the greateſt heat of their hatred to Chriſtianitie, ſate at Tiberias to determine all the vowels of the ould ſcripture, the which euerie Hebritian knoweth what power it gaue them to change the whole text, and this to men publickely accuſed of forgerie in that kinde. The Greeke, as long as the cō demned Heretickes held ſo great power in thoſe parts, 〈◊〉 is publickely knowne they did for ſome ages, was in litle leſſe jeopardie, they being alſo taxed with the like impietie. But the other two wayes and meanes of corruptions are common to all, and in deede vnauoidable in ſo great a multitude of copies as were in all the three languages, at leaſt of Greeke and latin. And now, cozen, can you tell mee what hazard this muſt needes breede in the text it ſelfe that is

Nay mary that poſſeth my vnderſtanding, for if I should calculate ſo manie copies to haue beene m • de, and then eſtimate what errours may haue eſcaped in euerie copie, the number peraduenture would exceede the words of the Bible. For let vs take a boke of 2000. columnes, and let vs likewiſe ſuppoſe, (which is verie likely) that as manie copies were made in ſome age of an hundreth yeare, and let vs then put 56. lines to a columne, and 6. words to a line and ſo there will be in one columne 336. Words, And farther may wee not well ſuppoſe that there was as manie faults eſcaped in euerie copie (one with an other) as there bee words in a columne, which being ſuppoſed you will finde that the number of all the errours eſcaped in all the copies which haue beene made ſince the Apoſtles time, will amoūte to 15. or 16. times as manie as there bee words in the Bible. Wherefore by this accompte it would be 15. or 16. to one of anie particular place that it were not the true text. Which me thinkes cannot be true.

I doe not thinke that you haue taken your proportions too high, for if you looke into the moſt part euen of printed bookes of ſuch a great volume as the Bible is, revewe them well and you will finde a whole columne of errata in euerie one, and you know printing is donne with more eaſe and leſſe toile to the braine, and hath ordinarily 2. or 3. corrections before it be drawne, which helps written copies haue not. But yet I muſt tell you that you miſſed it in one thing, you marked not that the errours of ſo manie copies may haue beene the ſame in diuers of them, otherwiſe truly your calculation would proue that wee migh looke for ſcripture in ſcripture and not finde it, and the like with ſome proportiō, in all bookes, I ſaie with ſome proportion; for to thinke alltogether the like of Cicero, Demoſtenes, and others, is not reaſonable, becauſe there were few copies made of them, as only for ſome curious and learned men, whereas the Bible concerned euerie man ſo nearely that few would be with out it that could vnderſtand Lattin, And yet I doubt not but you remember well inough, ſince you were a ſtudent what varietie of texts and pretentions of corruptiōs you found amongſt the Critikes and commentaries euen of thoſe prophane authours. And to your calculation I will add an other ſuppoſe there were as manie written copies extant as the number of your columnes, and as much varietie in thoſe which haue not beene examined as in thoſe which haue beene looked into, And farther that Sixtus Quintus for the ſetting out of his Bible cauſed only an hundred to be examined, And that in his Bible the corrections amounte (as it is knowne they doe) to the nūber of two thouſand, doe you not ſee that the computation made of the various ſections of all thoſe copies would make twentie for euerie colūne? And truly wee cānot, imagine that there hath beene ſo for ether Latin or Greeke copies; And whereas in this computation wee only eſteeme them to haue beene but 2000. ſuppoſe, as it is verie like, that there hath beene at leaſt an hundreth thouſand in ether language in ſo manie ages, and in ſo great an extent of readers, And thoſe which are not Extant (Whereof none in particular can be reiected) make the caſe more ambiguous, becaus they giue mē power out or ſuch or ſuch a probabilitie to coniecture a truth, and out of coniecturall proofe to belieue it. For as we all confeſſe that what ſoeuer is certainely knowne to be ſcripture, is not to be touched, ſo we know likewiſe that what ſoeuer may be doubted of, whether it be ſcripture or no, obligeth to no ſuch reſpect. Wherefore if reaſon conclude and tell vs, that in all likelyhood there hath beene twenty variae lectiones in euerie particular columne, though perhapps two or three only are extant, the reſt probably knowne to haue beene, yet ſo as that there is no certaine ſigne of which or where they were, And now there cometh one to preſſe a place in this or that columne, which his opponent thinketh to be contrarie to other places, may he not then iuſtly ſai •• ſir, I miſtruſt this place to be corrupted? Or can his Aduerſarie in prudence vrge it on as an aſſured text▪ Or can he preſſe and auerre for certaine that this is none of the 17. vnknowne variae lectiones? Certes he cannot, abſtracting from all warrant and commande of the church and ſtanding to pure and preciſe reaſon. So that all controuerſies would be ended, where nothing but ſcripture is admitted as iudge, with a Non liquet.

I expected you should haue shewed me how hard it is to agree about the true ſenſe of the words of the ſcripture, but as I now perceiue there is as much difficultie to know whether we haue the true and right text or no, which if it were well conce ••• d and vnderſtood by our deuout and pure citizen's Wifes of London, who turne and vew the text ſo curiouſly whē the preacher citeth it, I belieue it would much coole the zeale of their ſpirit if ſuch a qualme should come ouer their ſtomackes as to thinke, theſe words peraduenture are not the Holy ſcripture. But to this, vncle, may you not add the varietie of tranſlations: I pray tell me

I know words are but ſignes of what is in our mindes, ſett and ordained to that ende by the will of man,wha ars words. and therefore that diuers men ſignifying their mindes by diuers ſignes, come to make diuers languages. And I know likewiſe that though it bee an ordinarie thing amongſt vs to hange vp a bush to ſignifie thereby that in the houſe there is wine to be sould, yet peraduenture in an other coū trye ſome thing else may ſignifie the ſelling of wine, and a bush ſome other thing. So may it happen that the ſame word in one language may ſignifie one thing and in an other, ſome thing else, And becauſe I likewiſe ſee that it may ſo fall out that theſe two nations ioyne in one, or haue much commerce together, by vſe and cuſtome this word may come to haue two ſignifications, euen in the ſame language, And ſo will breede a difficultie in whether of the two ſenſes it is to be taken, which I cōceiue is caled Equiuocation.The origine of equiuocation. And ſithence there is no other grounde for ether of theſe ſignifications but man's will, which cannot be eaſily demonſtrated, I know not well how the truth can bee certainly knowne.

You ſaie verie well, for the ſignification of words muſt needes depende of mā's will, and of the cuſtome or vſe of them, two verie mutable things. Wherefore ſeparating theſe two, and taking words in them ſelues, you shall finde that man's will doth put diuers ſignifications vpon the ſame word, ether by chance, or onſett pourpoſe; by chance as you declared but now, which in deede doth not teach to manie words, but is caſuall as the cauſe of it is; on ſett pourpoſe, and that ether for want of words, or by deſire of elegance and varietie in our deliuerie, And this belongeth to allmoſt all the words wee haue, for there is ſcarſely anie word (if you note it) but may be ſo vſed, and if it may be ſo taken, it is ſo one time or other. This multiplicitie of variously taking words in Logicke is ſaid, by who maketh the leaſt, to be eight fold, for ſome make no end of multiplying the ſortes of it, And vnder the name of Equiuocation or Analogie it much confoundeth all ſcholaſticall learning. Now for the cuſtome and vſe of words there be manie things to be reſpected, as the varieties of times, and qualities of persōs, for in one time a word may ſignifie one thing, and in an other a quite differēt thing, So wee ſee that thoſe who write of eloquence giue words their births • nd ould ages. And likewiſe who knowes not how great difference there is betwixt the vſe of words in the Court or vniuerſitie, or great cities, and the vſe of the ſame words in remoter parts and villages. Nay if you marke it you shall finde that as languages in generall are the inſtitution of a multitude of men, ſo almoſt euerie particular man is Maſter, and as it were founder of ſome particular expreſſions or phraſes not common to others, whereby ſome declare them ſelues more exactly and plainely, others more confuſedly and ambiguouſly, in ſo much that Critickes, curious in antient Writings, Will attribute or derogate certaine workes from Authors vpon this only ground. And now I pray, cozen, in ſuch an antient writing as the ſcripture is how manie ambiguities may grow from all theſe principles? Or rather what certaintie can be had out of ſuch multiplicitie of vncertitudes? But let me particularly vrge one thing, that is, whether t'is poſſible that a language should be entirely conſerued in written bookes, which ſtill remaine the ſame?

Why not? if there be bookes enough,How a lāguage is conſerued. for then all the words of that language may be found in them, in all their ſenſes, and then I thinke the language cannot perish.

Your anſwere is partly true, but not ſufficient, for you were to conſidere whether ſo manie bookes of one language may haue beene conſerued▪ for if the Countrie be litle, few bookes will be written in the language, but if the language be diſperſed through manie Countries, it will haue it's proper words and ſignifications for euerie Countrie. So that bookes being written for the ſubiects, and not for the language, (as Dictionaries and phraſe bookes are) it muſt needes follow that only ſo much of the language will be conſerued as is neceſſarie for the vnderſtanding of thoſe bookes, which of them ſelues are ſo good, as that the people will ſtill deſire to haue them and continue them. Wherefore nether all bookes that are written, nor, (if we iudge by theſe of our time anie notable part wil be conſerued, nor yet the whole language contained in all the bookes that are written. And if part of the language be loſt, part conſerued, of neceſſitie the conſerued part muſt be imperfect by the miſtake of ſuch words as be rarely found, and where they are found, only gheſt at by the reſt which are to make ſenſe with them. And all this equiuocall ambiguitie is purely in the bare words, not yet placed in conſtruction.

I thinke ſo, vncle, for altough I ſee there be caſes, numbers, moodes, tenſes, and perſons in euerie language, yet I hope thoſe doe rather take awaie equiuocation then make it,

It is true thoſe things are made to take awaie equiuocation, but if you reflect you shall finde that the want of them, and the confuſed or vnexact vſe of them, doth likewiſe cauſe it, and where they are more aboundant (as in ſome languages) there the abuſe of them is more frequent people being in nothing more vnwarie thē in their words; And where they are but rare and few, that likewiſe of it ſelf cauſeth ambiguitie. And if you will looke into thoſe particular languages wherein the ſcripture was primitiuely written, you shall finde that the Hebrew hath eight moodes wholy different from anie of ether the Greeke or Latin moodes, and euer varying the ſenſe, as much as the actiue and paſſiue doe in Latin and Greeke. The Greekes haue ſeuen tenſes all of different ſignifications, and of numbers, genders, perſons three a peece. The Latin ſix caſes. So that you ſee new occaſions of Equiuocation almoſt in euerie word, and conſequently what obſcuritie and doubtfullneſſe muſt of neceſſitie follow anie language or ſenſe relying vpon words; and yet for breuitie ſake, I haue not tould you the half of what the matter giueth me ſcope to ſaie. for the ſcripture dependeth and hath beene originally written in more languages then I haue ſpoken of, Where of ſome haue much more varietie then anie of thoſe that I haue expreſſed. For cōſtruction you may firſt conceiue that the verie pointing and accenting of words doth beget a number of doubts and Equiuocations, a diuers comma or virgula making ſome times the ſenſe quite different. Secondly that word which is conſtrued with an other to cleere the ſignification of it, is ſome times it ſelfe of no leſſe ambiguitie then the other. Thirdly in the ſame conſtruction it may happen that the ſame two words will haue diuers ſenſes. And of all theſe your Grammer and Oratory Maſters, doe enlarge their precepts. And aboue all there is an Equiuocation in the moſt commō words wee vſe, riſing out of a kinde of cuſtome depending of particular times and places, which the compilers of the Ciuill law thought to be of ſo great importance as that they iudged it neceſſarie to make a ſpeciall booke de vſu & interpretatione verborum, and that for the commoneſt words that were in vſe. Theſe reaſons, being vnauoidable in anie language by human induſtrie, are more then ſufficient to let you ſee that t'is impoſſible to conuince and demonſtrate anie thing out of bare and dead words, and that who vndertakes ſuch a taſke doth not ſee what hee attempteth.

If all theſe things bee true which you tell me I wonder with what face anie man can pretende to conuince pointes of controuerſies ſo clearely out of the ſcripture, which ſome doe with ſuch cō fidence, for ſurely they muſt ether be proude dunces, and ignorant doltes, not vnderſtanding what is proofe and what is not, or else preuaricating miſcreants counterfeiting what they doe not belieue, and thinke our learned men vnable or vnwilling to diſcouer the follye of theyr enterpriſe.

Your bloode is too hot, nephew, but if you ſaid only, that ſuch men as promiſe them ſelues victorie with ſo much confidence in this caſe, are rash and vnaduiſed, I should thinke you wronged them not. For the truth is, there's none but is ſo in his meaſure. And where intereſt or affection is ioyned to ſome litle apparēce, which the firſt ſight of the text affordeth, there's preſently a great impreſſion made. It is true in ſo graue and important a caſe they ought to be more ſtaied, but he whoſe conſcience quitteth him from all too forward iudging of his neighbours, euen in matters of conſequence, let him caſt the firſt ſtone for mee. I will leaue them to them ſelues, and let you ſee that we are not yet at an end but farther

Why, cozen, tell me firſt, doe you ſee the walle before you, ſome fouer or fiue yards frō you? and how much of if doe you ſee?

I ſee it perfectly well, God be thanked, and it is white, there is fower pictures hangs on it, and half a douzen chaires ſtand againſt it, To tell you preciſely how much of it I ſee together, that I perhapps cannot, but in a short turning of myne eye I can ſee it all, or verie neare, if I will.

I pray goe within a ſpanne of it and then tell mee what difference you finde in the ſight of the walle.

Marry I finde now that I ſee much leſſe of it, but that which I doe ſee, and which lyeth directly before me, I ſee farr better and can diſtinguish euerie litle part in it, and of what collour it is.

Did you not tell mee, cozen, the walle was white? how cometh it to paſſe that you tell me now you ſee what collour euerie part of it is?

It ſeemed all white before whileſt I was a good wale from it, but when I came neere it, I could perceiue ſome litle parts dunne, others browne, and the like, but ſure the white parts were much more.

Why then, cozen, you may thinke that you did not perfectly ſee the collour of the walle before, for the collour of the walle muſt needes be the collour of the parts, and you ſaie the collour of the parts is not one but manie, and therefore you only ſaw the collour of thoſe parts which did exceede the reſt. And if you tooke anie of thoſe litle parts and put it in a multiplying glaſſe, you would ſee as great difference of parts, and peraduenture of collours to, in it, as you ſaw in the walle when you were within a ſpanne of it; ſo that if one should aske you what you haue ſeene you would hardly quit your ſelf handſomly of the queſtion. Notwithſtanding you perceiue well enough that the firſt ſight of the walle ſerueth you for all the vſes of your life, as not to runne againſt it, and generally to know how to comporte your ſelf or vſe anie thing elſe which were requiſite to be ſet towards the walle or in anie manner to be donne about it. The ſecond ſight ſerueth you only to know the nature of the walle, and to diſtinguish what is mixed in it, or of what ingredients it is compoſed, or the like. So that you ſee the eaſier and more common knowledge of anie thing ſerueth for the direction of our liues, the more particular and exact knowledge is only required ether for the content of the knower, or for ſome ſpeciall practize vpon the thing knowne.

I belieue I vnderſtand alreadie which waie you intende to carrie me, for you will tell me that there are two manners of vnderſtāding ſcripture, the one a Kinde of large manner, taking it in groſſe and a great deale together, as we take a diſcourſe or playe which pleaſingly paſſeth away without anie great demurr, or particular weighing of euerie word; The other more curious and exact looknig into euerie litle proprietie which may breede anie diuerſitie. And I ſuppoſe you would tell me that this ſecond belōgeth only to ſchollers, but that the former guideth our life and gouerneth our actions. And t'is true I ſee the people is ordinarily caried a waye by their preachers, Antient common wealths by their Oratours, and in what matter ſoeuer an eloquent and elaborate diſcours which paſſeth ſweetly in this ſort gaine's preſently the ſuffrages of the Auditorie. Wherefore I muſt needes confeſſe that what good effect ſoeuer is the end for which the ſcripture was ordained, if it be anie thing belonging to man's life and conuerſation, it muſt be compaſſed by this groſſe, cō mon, and ordinarie courſe of reading and vnderſtanding it. Where as if a man should ouer examine euerie word he would not finde grounde to fixe him ſelf with aduantage and vtilitie. Is not this your meaning?

You are verie right. And ſurely if we looke into what is in the ſcripture neceſſarie for our good life and vertuous conuerſation, we shall finde plainely that t'is to be had this waie. As the direction of our liues and actions to God, acknowledging all things from him, Comfort in aduerſitie, moderation in proſperitie, compaſſion of the afflicted, helping of the needie, Rewards of vertue, punishments of vice, examples of both, and in a word the motiues of the loue of God and our neighbour, and of the cō tempt of the world. Who therefore is ſo blinde as not to ſee that theſe things are to be found in the ſcripture by a ſenſible, common, and diſcreet reading of it; though perhapps by a rigorous ād exact ballancing of euerie particular word and ſyllable, anie of theſe things would vanish awaie we know not how? but to come yet cloſſer to our pourpoſe, doe you thinke this manner of reading ſcripture would make a man a perfect beleeuer that is a Catholike? Which is as much as to aske

How should I know that, vnleſſe I were able to prooue my Religiō out of ſcripture, or at leaſt that I were able to giue a iudgement of all that is in ſcripture? Which is beyond my capacitie.

Then I will tell you, cozē, there are two meanes to make one a Catholike or a true and perfect belieuer. The one by shewing euerie point of our faith in particular. And this I dare not ſaie that our common and ordinarie manner of reading or hearing ſcripture is able to doe, for we ſee thoſe who write of controuerſies doe alledge but few places, nor thoſe vnauoidable nether, for ſome pointes of Catholike doctrine. Nor is it to be expected, Becauſe man's nature being euer to add to what is alreadie learned, And ſeeing likewiſe that long practiſe maketh men perfect in all arts, There being no prohibitiō to perfect in ſome ſort the inſtruction of the faithfull, the oeconomie of the church, and ſome ſuch other things, which the oppreſſed Primitiue church could not bring to perfectiō, no maruelle I ſaie if theſe and the like things can not in particular be shewd in the ſcripture; but shall therefore I know not who riſe vp and exclame theſe things be ſuperſtitious, hurtfull to the faithfull ād make a ſchiſme to deſtroy them? Who doth not ſee that this were plaine faction and Rebellion? The other meanes or waye to make one a Catholike is by ſome common principle; as if by reading of ſcripture wee finde nothing contrarie to the Catholike tenet or practize which our Aduerſarie call's in queſtion: or alſo if wee finde it commēded there in generall, or the authours and obſeruers of it praiſed and extolled. And in this waye I doubt not but a ſenſible and diſcreete reading of ſcripture at large, may and will make anie true ſtudent of it, a perfect beleeuing Catholike, ſo he proceede with indifferēcie, ād with a minde rather to know ſcripture then to looke for this or that point in it. But now can you tell me, cozē, how it cometh to paſſe that ſithence by an exact and particular examinatiō of the words of ſcripture theſe truths cānot be conuinced and beaten out of it, how, I ſaie, is it poſſible that by a common and ordinarie reading of it theſe truths should appeare, for that cānot be in the ſumme, which is not in the particulars.

I can tell you that there is the ſame difficultie in the diuers ſights of the walle, which you made me experiē ce but euen now, but to yeild you a good reaſon ether of the one or the other, that paſſeth my vnderſtanding.

For their ſakes, cozen, I will tell you of an other ſort of diſputation, wherein the Proteſtant shall haue no other diſaduantage but of his cauſe. For I thinke that the Catholike cauſe may not only be maintened by ſcripture, but alſo that it hath the better ſtā ding preciſely to ſcripture alone. I confeſſe this kinde of diſputation is not fit for manie Auditors, but only for moderate and vnderſtanding men. And it is to make this, the queſtion. Whether partie is more probable if only ſcripture were to bee alleadged. This Queſtion requireth diuers ſuppoſitions where vpon both ſides are to be agreed, which I feare will bee ſome what hard. As what texts are to preuaille, what cō mentaries or explicatiōs shall be allowed of, what is a proper and an improper ſpeeche, amongſt improper ſpeeches which muſt be preferred, what copies of euerie text shalbe held for good, what coniectures shall be accounted null againſt the naturall ſenſe, And manie other ſuch poſitions which would not be eaſily reſolued. This donne let both ſides bring their places for the pointe in queſtion, and ſo the diſputatiō will only be of the qualificatiō of the places, that is, to shew whether are more apparēt and likely of the two. And for this I ſee lekewiſe that ſo manie logicall principles are firſt to bee reſolued, which partly are found as yet amongſt the critickes diſputations, as that all the Logickes hitherto inuented would not afford ſufficiēt light and inſtruction, to make an euident concluſion, whether ſide were more apparent in words and Tetxs. And therefore you may gheſſe how farr theſe diſputations out of ſcripture are frō clearing doubts, what litle good cometh of them, vnleſſe they bee well gouerned, And how for the moſt part the beſt credit or the beſt tongue carrieth awaie the day by the Auditor's preiudicat opinion or weakneſſe. In a word the ſcripture being not written for this end, to wit, for the deciſion of controuerſies, it is not to bee expected that it should bee, of it ſelfe, without the churche's authoritie much profitable for that pourpoſe, but to informe our liues by an ordinarie reading of it, or by preaching, ſinging, and ſuch like vſes, things recommended in the verie letter it ſelf, whereas wee are neuer sēt to the word for the deciding of controuerſies. And now I hope you are fully ſatisfied.

I am ſo in deede, and giue you manie thankes, for I ſee that how few pointes ſoeuer the Proteſtants pretende to be neceſſarie, yet cā there not anie thing be conuinced out of bare words inuoluing ſoe manie vncertainties as you haue tould me of.

It is to litle pourpoſe for them to ſaie that ſome few ſubſtātiall and neceſſarie pointes may bee proued out of ſcripture, it were fitter they would firſt proue that the ſcripture is an inſtrument made to determine controuerſies, or anie other of thoſe principles, which I shewd you muſt of neceſſitie be true, if ſcripture bee our rule. But this they can neuer proue, And therefore they ſeeke firſt to withdraw, vs from a ſecure and naturall meanes of relying vpon our forefathers, (Which neuertheleſſe in all ciuill and oeconomicall conuerſation they them ſelues can not liue without) and then to leaue vs to a labyrinth of voluntary and vnendable diſputations. Reflect then I pray, cozen, vpon what wee haue ſaid, and compare our yeſternight's and this our morning's diſcourſe together, conſidering firſt how manie things are of neceſſitie to bee conſerued in the church for the preſeruation of faith and good life in hir ſubiects; Then ſee how manie pointes haue beene and are quarelled, and if anie haue eſcaped, how all the reſt may be caled in queſtion with as much probabilitie and apparence as theſe are, Then looke vpon the qualities of that Decider of controuerſies where vnto all the Aduerſaries of the Catholike church doe ſeeke to draw vs, by which there can be no other end of controuerſies but to leaue euerie man to his owne will. And then conclude that theſe poſitions being put, there will nether remaine gouerment in the church, nor certaintie or conſtancie in beliefe, nor anie thing to be taught and practized worthie God Allmightie's ſending of a lawgiuer, muchleſſe of ſending his owne ſonne vpon thoſe hard conditiōs which wee apprehēde of Ieſus Chriſt and reade in the Ghoſpell.

It is verie true but if your leaue mee thus I shall bee like him who had fargot his Pater noſter but not learned his Our father. For you haue taught mee what I cannot rely vpon, but not what I ought to rely vpon, And there is ſo much ſaid againſt the authoritie of the church by all hir Aduerſaries, that a man who hath beene euer beaten to thoſe obiections, cannot eaſily leaue them without ſome ſcrupule.

You are in the right, the moſt neceſſarie part is yet behinde, for a litle building is better then a great deale of pulling downe. Therefore when your leiſure ſerueth you I will bee readie to giue you ſatisfaction to the beſt of my power. But now this morning is too farr ſpent to beginne ſo large a diſcourſe as that queſtion doth require, Take an other time, and the ſooner the more welcome, But for the preſent God be with you, I haue ſome prayers to ſave.

Why, coſen, what ſecuritie doe your marchāts, your ſtates mē, your ſoliers, thoſe that goe to law, nay euen thoſe that till their grounds and worke for their liuings, what ſecuritie, I ſaie, doe all theſe goe vpon? Is it greater thē the ſecuritie which theſe grounds doe afford? Surely no. And yet no man eſteeme's them foolish. All human affaires are hazardous, and haue ſome aduenture in them. And therefore who require's euident certaintie only in matters of Religion diſcouer's in him ſelf a leſſe minde to the goods promiſed in the next life, then to theſe which he ſeeke's here in this world vpon weaker aſſurāce. Howſoeuer the greateſt euidence that can be to him that is not capable of conuincing demō ſtrations (which the greateſt part of mankinde fall shortof) is but cōiecturall, for men doe not generally diſtinguish betwixt a ſolide and a wittie proofe, and are as ſoone taken with a gloſſe or ieſting ſpeach as with a demonſtration. Let but this verie proofe I haue told you be put to ſome two men, the one more, the other leſſe iudicious, and the one perhapps will hold it for euident, the other only for apparent and likly. And certainely it is manifeſt that if our church was once the true church, they who made a breach from hir muſt needes haue euident proofes of hir corruption, or elſe be culpable of faction and ſchiſme. And yet of theſe two men I propoſe, the one peraduenture will take this argumēt only for plauſible, and at the leaſt checke forgoe it, the other looking into the nature of Gouermēt and ſeeing what a flaw the contrarie poſition breede's in it, and how in effect it deſtroye's all Gouerment will thinke it ſo ſtrong that what ſoeuer is or can be ſaid againſt it, is but the playing of witt againſt pure euidē ce. Farther if we Catholikes hold the truth of ſcripture as conſcientiouſly as anie Proteſtant, and therefore that all controuerſies betwixt vs and them are only concerning the ſenſe of it, and not touching the truth of it, t'is manifeſt that Catholikes muſt ether be ſuch dull dunces as not to vnderſtand their arguments, or ſo willfull as not to acknowledge what they ſee ād know, otherwiſe ſurely they would agree with Proteſtants in all pointes which they could cōuince and demonſtrate. And againe this man who perceth deeper into the ſtrength of this argument ſee's, that although ſome times learning may faile, ād that vertue may haue a bridle for a while, yet would not learnīg be learning if it should not for the moſt part worke it's effect in men, and make them more capable of reaſon then others: And much leſſe can it be true vertue which is ſeldome efficacious, ſithence vertue's nature is to be operatiue. Wherefore this vnderſtanding man that ſee's there's a more conſtant pourſuite of vertue and learning on the one ſide then on the other, conclude's euidently that there cā be no extraordinarie weakneſſe on the learneder and more vertuous ſide in cōpariſon of the other. And where he ſee's more meanes, paines, and fruits of learning and vertue on the one ſide then on the other, he will no more doubt (ſuppoſing this be a conſtant and ſetled courſe on both ſides) but that of neceſſitie there muſt be more learning and vertue on that ſide where he ſee's theſe effects, no more, I ſaie, thē he can doubt whether neceſſarie cauſes will haue their effects, as whether fire and towe put together will burne, or whether effects cā be without their cauſes, as howſes, clockes, and the like without Carpenters, ſmiths, and other Artizans. Yet perhapps he that barely looke's vpon the ſuperficies of this diſcourſe take's it only for a pleaſing and probable conſequence. Ioyne to this, the multitudes of Antiquitie (I meane thoſe ages wherein the Proteſtants acknowledge the Raigne of Poperie) and ſurely thē there will not remaine to an vnderſtanding man anie iuſte cauſe to feare or complaine of hazard, but rather a great occaſion to admire and praiſe God's wiſdome, who hath prouided ſo short and ſecure a meanes for euerie man who is ſo happy and carefull as to acknowledge and embrace this guide of eternall ſaluatiō; looking with an eye of commiſeration vpō thoſe, whoſe diſpoſitiōs being not fitted to the ſight of this truth, remaine in doubt and ignorance by diuing into queſtions wherein they are not able to finde ſatisfaction, and ſo caſt them ſelues awaie, not for want of meanes, but ether through their owne pride, or by the miſleading of their Directors, Who not ſeeing what's conuenient for the diſpoſitiōs of their diſciples, throwe thē vpon the Rockes in ſtead of giuing them a fit harbour to anker in, for if they would rely vpon this plane and open waie of our diſcourſe, commō ſenſe would tell them (if not what's true) at leaſt what they ought to follow, ād that as cleerely as that two and three are fiue.

I confeſſe the euidence you pleade is greate, yet me thinke's one might obiect, that ſeeing we heare it ſo often and ſo ſtrongly beatē into vs that all men are falible, and that nature it ſelfe ſeeme's to teach the ſame, therefore as on the one ſide your reaſons force me to grant that t'is the wiſer courſe to vēter this waie; ſo on the other, I ſtill remaine with this diſpoſition that it may peraduenture be falſe, which is able to shake a man's reſolution and cowle his affection.

Coſen, you deſire great matters, and peraduenture more then your age and wauering dtſpoſition is able to beare. Yet to complye with your good deſires, I will put you in the waie if you will haue patience to follow the tracke, and you shall ſee

Why ſo, nephew; you know if anie man be accuſed, his denyall cleere's him ſufficiently vntill proofe be brought againſt him▪ And when it is brought t'is yet ſufficient for his defence to shew, it doth not conuince, which if he can doe, the law laye's no hold of him. And shall not the clayme of ſo great a part of the world ſtanding in poſſeſſion and mantaining the innocentie of the church be heard and eſteemed good vntill the aduerſe partie hath made his proofes cleere and euident againſt them? Certes you haue forgotten your reſolution concerning your wiues honnor for whom you were ſo earneſt but now. Againe we muſt ſurely cōceite the church to be a thing planted by Almightie God with no leſſe bleſſing then that which he gaue to men and beaſts at their creation, whereby they haue beene conſerued to this daye, for ſithence our Redemptiō coſt him no leſſe then our creation, we cannot eſteeme his Bleſsing of continuance to be of leſſe worth and vertue in the one then in the other. And t'is much more eaſie to conceiue how the church is and may be continued, thē how mankinde hath beene and wilbe conſerued, whereof I thinke no man doubts. And truly doe but conſidere how vnequall and vniuſt a conditiō it is, that the clayme of the preſent church shall not be heard, vnleſſe she can confute all the peraduentures that wit may inuent, And ſolue all the arguments which the infinite varietie of time, place, and occaſions may haue giuen waie vnto, And then you will ſee how vnreaſonable an Aduerſarie he is who will not be content with anie ſatisfaction but ſuch as man's nature ſcarſely afforde's. Yet to anſwere fully to you maxime, firſt I will oppoſe an other vnto it, and by comparing thē we shall better vnderſtand the meaning of them both. And t'is that fruſtra eſt potentia quae nunquam reducitur ad actum, Wherevnto we may add that God, the Author of nature, neuer made anie thing in vaine, ſo that when the ſame power or poſſibilitie is ordained for diuers effects or ends, then if anie of it's effects be brought to paſſe it hath ſo farr arleaſt got it's end as that it cā not be ſaid to haue beene made in vaine, And therefore t'is no good argument to argue from the power or poſſibilitie to anie one of it's effects in particular, becauſe it's ēd may be ſufficiently obſerued by an other effect. But if the power or poſſibilitie haue but one effect then your firſt maxime faile's, by reaſon of the ſecōd, for being the power hath but one effect, if that be not put, the power muſt needes be in vaine. Wherefore putting ſuch a poſſibilitie, leaſt it should be fruſtrate. you muſt needes put the effect, and conſequently the argument is ſtill good, there is a power or poſſibilitie therefore an effect. And this follow's moſt cleerely in our caſe, for if Almightie God haue ſet cauſes which may and cā make his church eternall, that is, if he haue put a power or poſſibilitie of eternall duration in his chureh, This effect, to wit, euerlasting continuance being of ſuch a nature that it can be but one, t'is euident that ether this effect will follow, or elſe the poſſibilie is fruſtrate ād put to no end, which in a worke of ſuch a moment as that it is the verie ayme and end of all Gods workes, it were more then abſurde in common ſenſe to grant ſuch a conſequēce. And to declare this more particularly let vs conſidere that where there are manie varieties, that which cauſeth defect in one cauſeth abundance in an other. As if in diuers countries vnder ſeuerall climats,Why Chriſtiā faith cā not be deſtroyed. there be lōg drought or raine, the drought in ſpaine will cauſe want of corne, here in England and in the low countries a mayne harueſt: And contrariewiſe much wet here cauſeth dearth, in ſpaine and Affricke plentie. So likewiſe the Catholike faith being diſperſed through manie ſeuerall countries, what in one countrie make's it faile, in an other will make it flourish. The hate betwixt France and ſpaine made Luther's proceedings to be fauored in Germanie by the Princes which leaned to the french, and the ſame hatred made ſpaine and Italie to oppoſe them more vehemently. The power and authoritie of ſome one mā in one countrie may oppreſſe the church, whereas in an other, euen to diſcountenance that man, it shal be vpheld. And as in place ſo in time, diuers occaſions make it now fauored now miſliked, but t'is impoſſible, it being truth and conformable to reaſon, that there should be anie ſo generall and vniuerſall occaſion as to make it hated in all times and places, which would be neceſſarie for a totall ruine. And this is it, which mantaine's all the progreſſe of nature, to wit, becauſe it hath rootes and principles in being, for no one ſorte of liuing things, which haue being in manie farr differēt Climats, can be exterminated, by reasō the contraries which muſt diſtroye it, are nether vniuerſall in place nor time, and therefore thoſe contraries being ſpent, the ſeedes of nature recouer them ſelues, ſprout out, and budd againe new brāches of the ſame kinde. So it fareth with Chriſtian beliefe and doctrine, which becauſe it is ſo like and ſo connaturall to nature, all it's oppoſites muſt needes be againſt nature and violent, and conſequently not durable; which being gone, then muſt of neceſſitie thoſe, in whoſe harts Religion is rooted, bloſſome againe and bring forth ſuch delightfull ſauours and fruicts as will draw ād attract mē's ſoules, ād ſpread it ſelfe amongſt the multitudes, frō whom it had beene violently banished. Wherefore that the church in this or that time, be oppreſſed, is a thing within the compaſe of natute's mutabilitie; But that in all Countries and at all times it should be oppreſſed to death ſurpaſſeth the power of mutable cauſes, Which were not mutable if they should ſo long and in ſo different circū ſtances euer haue the ſame effect; yea nature it ſelf and it's Author would be ouercome if ſuch long violence could ſo oppreſſe it as to extinguish it, It being nature's cheefe flower and greateſt treaſure planted by the expreſſe handy worke of the omnipotent and wiſe framer thereof.

Your diſcourſe ſeemee's good, for I ſee that mē, who in a caſe of great importance will not be content with what is proportionall to their capacitie, but ſeeke a certitude ſo great as them ſelues are not capable to iudge of, being not beaten to thoſes ſciences in which ſuch certaintie is vſuall, thoſe men, I ſaie, muſt needes come short of what they deſire, if truly they doe deſire it, for I belieue the affectiō of wealth, pleaſure, or ſome fore-made iudgment doth carie them againſt the ſimple and plaine directiō of free reaſon. How ſoeuer, vncle, ſeeing it was ſo eaſie for the church to haue beene conſerued entire in faith, me thinke's it should not be hard to shew in effect and in particular from age to age that it hath beene conſerued.

If we could proue that Bishops ether in Generall or Nationall Councells had once in two or three hundreth yeares taken care that no corruptiōs should be introduced, this might be effected, but that depende's vpon bookes 〈◊〉 and hiſtorie; which you and wil not now medle withall.

I belieue thoſe hiſtories are not ſo doubtfull but that generally Proteſtants doe ād will acknowledge thē. And by my pore skill I know that there neuer paſſed 300. yeares ſince Chriſt's time without a Councell, and without condemning ſome hereticke, ſo that t'is cleere the church hath had ſufficiēt care in this kinde. Yet becauſe I haue heard your ſelf complaine of the slouth of men who ſeeke not into the grounds of ſciēces, and often ſaie, that fair more thē is, might be knowne if the principles were rightly laide for it, and the waie trodden, nay that all God's workes hang ſo together by connection of cauſes and effects as that there's no effect whoſe cauſe by diligence might not be found. I muſt therefore intreate you to condeſcende a litle euen to the hardneſſe of thoſe men's harts, who require more in this ſubiect then in anie other, and ſeeke the cauſe why the church and faith of Chriſt cannot faille. For ſithē ce we haue found by experiē ce theſe 1600. yeares that it hath not ſo failed as that it hath not euer beene generally and vniuerſally viſible, and hath both dured and florished thus long, ſurely it hath ſome forcible cauſe, and in deede ſuch an one, as can neuer faile, but will ſtill worke the ſame effect, And this were to shew.

I can not giue you a better rule thē to ſticke to the churche's authoritie for Tradition, and not to be eaſily beaten of by great names and words, for if you conſidere that a Tradition, or a point of faith deliuered by tradition, is a point vniuerſally preached and deliuered by the Apoſtles and imprinted in the harts of the Chriſtian world; And by an vniuerſall beliefe and practiſe continued vnto our days; whereof our warrant is no other then that we finde the preſent church in quiet poſſeſſion of it, and whereof no begining is knowne, if this I ſaie you conſidere and ſticke well to this apprehēſiō, you neede not feare anie obiection which can be made againſt you. For you rely vpon the teſtimonie of the whole Chriſtiā church, you rely vpon the force of nature borne to continue frō father to child, you rely vpon the promiſes of Ieſus Chriſt of continuing his church vnto the end of the world, And vpon the efficacitie of the Holy Ghoſt ſent to performe it, by whom Chriſt's law was written in Chriſtians harts and ſo to be continued to the day of doome, So that you ſee no human authoritie, by which our Eſtates and liues are gouerned; No proofes of courts or law, which neuertheleſſe are admitted as Iuges of thoſe affaires which too manie (God knowe's) eſteeme more weightie and important then Religion, No conſent of hiſtorie, And in fine (if what we haue ſaid be true) no demonſtration better, nor greater, nor peraduenture equall. On the other ſide you shall finde all obiectiōs fall of their owne weakneſſe. As, ſome doe obiect the Millenarie errour for a tradition, whereof there is no certaintie, nor conſent of thoſe who write of it, whether it haue beene publickly preached by the Apoſtles or no, And euen thence it is excluded from the nature of ſuch tradition as we rely vpon. Others finding diuers fathers agreeing in one opinion, vrge them preſently for, or againſt, tradition, As if fathers in their dayes were not priuat Doctors, and might not be miſtaken in ſome points as well as the Doctors of the preſent church, T'is true we reuerence the fathers in manie titles aboue anie liuing Doctors, yet euerie Catholike knowe's that diuers fathers haue ſome times light into the ſame error. Wherefore you muſt note, coſen, that the fathers ſpeake ſome times as witneſes of what the church held in their days, and ſome times as Doctors, and ſo t'is often hard to diſtinguish how they deliuer their opinions, becauſe ſome times they preſſe ſcripture or raiſon as Doctors, and ſome times to confirme a knowne truth. So that who ſeeke's Tradition in the fathers and to conuince it by their teſtimonie, take's a hard taske vpon him, if he goe rigorouſly to worke and haue a conning Criticke to his Aduerſarie. How ſo euer t'is not a thing fitting for ordinarie and vnlearned people but only for ſuch as haue time at will and great reading and vnderſtanding.

You haue manie Aduerſaries in this opinion, for generally men ſeeke tradition out of the fathers, and thinke they haue found it, when in euerie age they finde ſeuerall fathers of the ſame opinion.

I intende not to detract from their labours who haue taken paines in this kinde, for they are profitable and neceſſarie for the church of God, and excellent teſtimonies of Tradition, but I nether thinke it to be the bodie of Tradition, but only an effect and conſequent of it, nor that the multitude of Chriſtians, whoſe faith is to be regulated by Tradition, neede to haue recourſe to thoſe learned workes. Wherefore although diuers fathers in the ſame or different ages be found to contradict ſome point, whereof the preſent church is in quiet and immemorable poſſeſſion, their authorities ought not to preuaile; nor are they ſufficiēt to proue there was not euen in their days a contrarie Tradion. For our faith being in ſome ſort naturally grafted in the harts of Chriſtians, learned men may now and then miſtake ſome points of it, as well as the cauſes and effects of their owne nature it ſelf, according as I tould you but now, And as in other points ſo euen in this, to wit, in the reſolution of faith, wherein as our Doctors ſeeme to differ now a days, ſo might the fathers alſo, And in particular S. Cypriā ſeeme's to thinke that the reſolution of faith was to be made into ſcripture and not into Tradition, though in deede he oppoſed not ſcripture to Tradition, but to cuſtome, wich is a farr different thing, the one relying vpon the doctrine of the Apoſtles, the other vpon the authoritie of priuat Doctors, And ſuppoſing he was miſtaken, it were no more thē what wee now ſee to conſiſte with the vnitie of the Church. There is one obiection and but only one of moment, and t'is that S. Auguſtin and Innocentius with their Councells held that the communion of Children Was neceſſarie for their ſaluatiō, and their words ſeeme to be apparent. But who looketh into other paſſages of the ſame Authors will finde that their words are metaphoricall, and that their meaning is, that the effect of ſacramentall Communion, to witt, an incorporation into Chriſt's miſticall bodie, which is done by Baptiſme, is of neceſſitie for Children's ſaluation. I remember not at this preſent anie other obiection of monent which may not be eaſily ſolued out of theſe principles.

I will ſuggeſt you one or two if you pleaſe, The one of Communion vnder both kindes, wherein our Aduerſaries ſaie, we leaue a knowne and practiſed tradition for manie ages. The other concerning the bookes of ſcripture, where they ſaie we accept of a new ſcripture, or rule of faith without tradition.

I did thinke, coſen, you could anſwere theſe your ſelfe. For the firſt there is two parts of it, The one that the B. Sacrament was giuen vnder both kindes ordinarily, the other that ſome times it was giuen in one kynd only, And Catholikes being in poſſeſſiō of both parts by tradition, thoſe that will proue that Catholikes goe againſt Tradition muſt proue that it was neuer adminiſtred vnder one kinde only, which our Aduerſaries nether goe about nor cā performe, but ply only that part which is granted them, to witt, that ordinarily it was adminiſtred vnder both kindes. For the ſecond t'is not ſufficient to shew that ſome haue doubted of this or that part of the Canon, vnleſſe they can proue that thoſe who did not doubt, were not a ſufficient partie to make a Tradition frō the Apoſtles time. And ſo you ſee it fall's into the queſtion we mentioned before, that ſome fathers or Doctors being of a contrarie minde breake not the force of tradition.

I am loath to leaue you, vncle, becauſe me thinke's I am not ſufficiently armed to anſwere all obiections, And yet what ſoeuer I call to minde falle's into ſome of theſe conditions you require.

Let me ſee how skillfull you are, I will try how you can anſwere me to

Marry I would deny it to be true, I meane I would ſaie that God's law was not forgotten, but neglected before the floud, And the like at the building of Babell; And for Abraham's time, we know that Abimelech, and Pharao, and Melchiſedech, and others (as Iob when ſoeuer he liued) obſerued God's law. As for heathen Religions they were written in bookes, for anie thing I know, and therefore preiudice tradition no more then a written law, and conſequently belong not to this cō trouerſie. And thus I thinke I should quitte my ſelf wel enough.

I muſt intreat your helping hand to faſten me vpō this shaking flore, otherwiſe I perceiue I am to weake to ſtand of my ſelf.

T'is not the flore you ſtand vpon, but the want of confidence which make's you ſo vnſteadfaſt. For tell me, I pray, if you remember whereon rely's the firmeneſſe of Tradition?

You tould me, the Tradition of Chriſtian faith was a great while a planting in the harts of men by the force of miracles, and that not only in their vnderſtandings but alſo in their wills and affectiōs, and ſo cultiuated vntill the maine of the people were conſtantly perſuaded there was no ſaluation without it. This was done at the ſame time in manie Countries, not knowing one of an other, nor being able to correſpōde and frame anie draught of beliefe together, but euerie one receiuing what was deliuered him from his preacher.

Why now then, coſen, rerurne to your obiectiōs ād looke how they vrge ād what force they haue againſt this your declaration of tradition.

As for Adam's children I ſee that one man and one woman were the only witneſes of ſuch a thing as the partys to whom they tould it could hardly belieue, it was ſo ſtrange, Nay them ſelues had ſo litle experience of thoſe ſtrange things which they tould, that (for anie thing we know) they neuer as much as taſted of anie fruit in Paradiſe but of the forbidden tree, And what care they had of anie Religion more thē to recōmēde God's ſeruice to their children, and that only as lōg as they liued with them, we know not, ſo that it ſeeme's what they taught tooke no ſtrong roote, nor in manie. For Noth the ſame anſwere may be giuen, two of his ſonnes parting shortly from him ether into farr countries, or at leaſt into ſuch a diſtance, as that they ſeldome came to ſee him, Wherefore I perceiue there is a great difference betwixt the deliuerie of Chriſt's Goſpell and of the law of God to thoſe fathers of the old Teſtament.

Your remarkes are good ones; And in deede ſeeing we haue required that Tradition should haue the continuance of nature, We muſt ſee that it be plāted accordingly, which you haue well noted to haue beene performed in Chriſt's law, but not in the tradition of the ould law, the fathers and people of that time being much hindered by the great buſines of the world's plantation, Euerie mā ſeeking to plant countries, build cities, finde out commodities for the cōſeruation of man's life, Which were occupations farr different from the thoughts of heauen, and things of the next world. To this you may add that there was not then anie ſetled orders of Prieſts and men whoſe fūctiō should be to inculcate the neceſſitie of Religion into men's eares and harts, which we knowe the Apoſtles had care to performe euerie where. Againe there was no ſuch correſpondēce betwixt countrie and countrie in thoſe times as hath euer beene amongſt Chriſtians, ſpecially by the mediation of a cheefe Bishop which Chriſt hath ſet amongſt vs. And no doubt but theſe two laſt points be two maine and cheefe cauſes of the propagation and conſeruation of Chriſtiā faith. You may yet add that euē the points of faith were not then able to worke vpon man's nature ſo powerfully as ſince Chriſt's comming, according to our yeſternight's diſcourſe. So that the roote and ſtrēgth of Tradition being grounded vpon this, that ſuch a beliefe is fixed in peoples harts of ſeuerall natiōs, the examples faile in three things. Firſt that the multitude was not capable of it, it being ſo ſpirituall and abſtract. Secondly that it was not inculcated with that feruour of ſpirit, aſſiſtance of the holy Ghoſt, and abundance of continuall miracles, as Chriſt's law was. Thirdly that there was not a ſet forme and inſtitution of Prieſts and Gouernors to ioyne all nations in communion for the conſeruation of their beliefe. Wherefore it neuer had the roote and nature of an vniuerſall Traditiō. And by theſe examples you may eaſily anſwere all other obiections of this nature. And now I will leaue you leaſt I should ouer wearie both you and my ſelf.

You ſaie well, vncle, yet that I may be ſure to haue fully cōceiued the maine drift of your inſtructions, I pray let me ſee if I can make

Yo haue taken good notice, and I thinke my paines well beſtowed, only I would intreate you to make a litle reflection and compariſon betwixt the knowledge which we haue by theſe meanes, and that which ſcripture afforde's vs if we handle it in a litigious waye, as in cōtrouerſies we neceſſarily muſt. And you shall finde that Tradition is grounded vpon that which all men agree in, and vpon that which is common to all ages, all nations, all conditiōs. But the knowledge which we haue by ſcripture is grounded vpon that which is different in euerie nation. Hence ſpring's an other differēce, to wit, that the one is planted in nature, and in what God created in man: the other in what men them ſelues framed, and that not by deſigne or art, but by cuſtome and chance. Out of which againe enſueth that the one is capable of neceſſitie, and conſequently of a perfect demonſtration, as all naturall things are, the other not. The one is fixed vpon vniuerſalls, the other vagabonde in particulars. As for example who is able to demonſtrate that a word in controuerſie hath no other ſenſe then that which is neceſſarie for his pourpoſe? Or where the conſtructiō may be made diuers waies, that the true one is that which he pleadeth? Who can demonſtrate amōgſt varieties of texts which was in the Autograph? Or that the copies we haue are not defectiue? And the like, which ordinarily are neceſſarie if we will euindently conuince our intent out of the place we chooſe. On the other ſide, To shew that whole multitudes of ſeuerall nations cannot miſſe in what hath beene a thouſand times ouer ād ouer inculcated vnto them, That a world cannot conſpire to coſen their poſteritie, That mankinde cannot accepte of a doctrine againſt an euident principle, which they likewiſe hold and mātaine (theſe being the maximes Tradition depende's on) to shew, I ſaie, theſe things there needes no deepe learning, being both knowne of them ſelues, and alſo as neceſſarily conioint and dependant of man's nature as his other naturall actions be, and therefore may beare as good a demonſtratiō as they; which if we haue not, it is not through anie defect or incapacitie of the ſubiect, but through the want of our looking into it, and that ether becauſe we doe not take the right waie, or that we doe not beſtow ſufficient paines in the proſecution of it. So that in fine although the Roman church had fallen (which is impoſſible) into thoſe errors which the Proteſtants pretē de, yet were it better for a man to content him ſelf with the Good that remaines in it, then to caſt him ſelf into an endleſſe and fruitleſſe maze of diſputations with trouble to all the world, ād that to no other effect, then to make people vnſetled, and by their vnnſetledneſſe to neglect Religion. But God's wiſdome (as you ſee) hath prouided an Euidence for thoſe that will take paines to ſeeke it, 1. that the pointes in controuerſie are of importance and neceſſarie to be knowne, 2. that they cānot be ſo knowne by ſcripture as is requiſite for deciſions againſt contentious men, and 3. that they may be certainely knowne by reſting quiet in the boſome of the Catholike church, which God of his mercie giue you and me grace to doe both liuing and dying.