Vitell.

Testimonies of Sion of the [...]st stone of fou [...]datio [...] layd therein of [...]he iudge­ment and righteousnes, and of the ho­ly priesthood and spirituall oblation through Iesus Christ [...] brought fourth through the Lordes [...]l [...]c [...]d minister HN.

Loue. Trueth.

BLessed is he which watcheth for the day of the Lorde which shal come as a theefe in the night. Math. 24.1. Thessa▪ 5. Peter. 3.

For the tyme shall come that the watchmen vpon mount Ephraim shal crye, come let vs goe vp vnto Sion to the Lord our God. Iere. 31. Mich. 4. Zach. 8.

Answere.

TO what purpose these places of ho­ly scripture are collected, I am ig­noraunt of, because they want dew explication: we know that from Sion came the law of God, and righteous­nes, and truth from Ierusalem. But it doth not follow that we knew not these testimonies but by HN. his mi­nisterye: before his new doctrine was broched, the Church of Christ was not ignoraunt of that corner stone Christ Iesus, of his holy priesthod, & of his holy sacrifice: these thinges were truly understood and knowē, although HN. had neuer written.

Touching Christ his comming as a theefe, we know it is ment of his second comming, although you would gladly haue it to be the comming of HN. with his new blasphemyes.

The watchmē vpon mount [...]phra­im, are the teachers of Christ his Church, of which number your HN. is none, his cryes are from Flaunders and not from Sion.

[Page]You place two speciall vertues, Loue, and Truth, as a face and [...]osite­naunce to your doctrine: but if wee should examine the same by the word of the Lord, then your Loue is but pretenced. For your Loue should be knowen by louing the Lord Iesus, who loued vs first. But the loue of HN. hath besotted your hartes, who by his doctrine is enemy vnto our Lord Iesus: who onely is to be beloued.

And for truth, you onely vse the word barely without substaūce: what trewth you vse in this your libell will appeare by reading, to euery indiffe­rent minde: if your Loue and trueth, be no better then is here expressed, then I may well affirme that little Loue, and small truth is to be found in this your libell.

Vitell.

BEhold I ley in Sion a stone of foundation, a proofe stone, a costly corner stone to a fast founda­tion, who so beleueth in him, let him not hast. For I will make the iudge­ment [Page] to a measure lyne, [...]nd the righ­teousnes a ballaunce. Esa. 28. b. Luke▪ [...]0. b. Rom. 9. c▪ Pet. [...]. [...].

A fals [...] ballance is abhomination vnto the Lord, but a full weight plea­seth [...] [...]ll▪ Prou. 11. [...].

A [...]ight ballance▪ and waight is of [...] Lord▪ and all pownde [...] in the sack▪ are his workes. Prou. 16. Should I sayth the Lord Iustifye the vnright ballance, and the false waightes in the sacke, wherethrough their rich men doe much vnright, and their anhabi­t [...]untes deale with lyes, and haue de­ceitful tongues in their throats? Mich. 6. b. [...] ▪

Therefore will I begin to plague you, and make you desolate because of your sinnes. Miche. 6.

Awake now all and repent, and re­member to be obedient vnto the law, and commaundementes of the Lord, to the end, that ye in the day of the Lord, be not found intangled or held captiue of your sinnes, nor plagued with the plague of the vngodly.

[Page]Whosoeuer now in the [...] Lord, will escape the plagues of the vngodly, and bide preserued in [...]the godlynes [...] ▪ Let him beleve in Iesus Christ [...]y ei [...]en as [...] the [...] sayth, and turne him about [...] of a childe, and apply him to be obe­dient vnto the requiring of the word of Iesu Christ, and of the doctrine of his lor [...] ▪

And so let euery one come and as­semble him to the mount Sion, to the cominalty [...] of Saynte [...], and to the stone, the fast foundatiō which is laid of God in Sion, and build him there­on to a spirituall house, in all loue and cōcord, and to an holy priesthod. For to offer spirituall oblaciōs which are acceptable vnto God through Iesus Christ. 1. Pet. 2.

I through the grace of God which is geuen to me, haue layd the foun­dation lyke a wise architect, and an other buildeth thereon: but let euery one take heed how he buildeth ther­on. For an other foundation can no [Page] man ley, then there is leyd, which is Iesus Christ. 1. Con. chap. 3. b.

This description of Sion, my belo­ued, haue I writtē [...] geue th [...]by the louers of truth to vnd [...]stand whe­ther they have read any of the bokes of HN or no [...], which are named the most holy seruice of lou [...], & that the scriptures which the Lord hath set forth through his elected mi [...]ist. HN. are brought forth out of Sion, accor­ding to the promises of the Lord. For it is written that the Lord will bring forth his loue out of Sion, & his word out of Ierusalem, &c. Also that the same HN▪ hath taught all men to repaire to his mount Sion, and builde thereon, the which is in his works de­clared at large, as is before rehersed.

Answere.

HEre is set down a large descrip­tion of Sion, of the corner stone, & foundation, and many places of holy scripture heaped together, but to no other end that can be perceiued but to amaze the Reader, that your doctrine [Page] should thereby beare a face and coun­tenaunce of trueth, and come from Si­on, & Ierusalem: but we tel you truely that your new vpstart heresies, with your new termes, are not testimonies of Sion, but from Bethell, Dan, & Gil­gall: your masking shew is now disco­uered, & your vizards pluckt of. Your painted words are opē to the world, & your suttle [...]leightes made manifest: here are many places quoted, but none applied: If we shal assemble to Siō, as you require, then must we leue your HN. & your Family. For by Sion is vnderstood the doctrin of the prophets, Apostles, and Euangelistes, from which the Lord assisting vs we will neuer depart: and whatsoeuer doctrine may be proued by these [...], we reuerētly embrace, & gladly receaue, & what doc­trine soeuer is contrary here unto, that we reiect, & cast of: of which number, the doctrine of HN. and his Familye are: because it agreeth not with y^t Pro­phets, Apostles, nor Euangelistes.

You geue the louers of truth to vnderstand [Page] whether they haue red any c [...] H N. his booke [...] or not, [...] so that there may be [...]onets of truth although they neuer red H N. nor his bookes as you graūte this vnto vs now, so you will deny the same hereafter, as shall ap­peare, you would still haue vs beléeue that H N. teacheth no doctrine but builded vpon Syon, as appeares by his workes, his bookes are to be seene, his doctrine is out of his own imaginatiō, being deluded by an erroneus spirit, to disquyet the Ioyfull proceedinge of Christ his gospell, and to exercise his church according to this saying, necess [...] [...]st haereses esse &c. It is necessary that heresies be &c.

There was neuer heresse in the world, but would dispute, argew, and reason, and deny no conference with any: but this HN. thinketh it suffici­ent that he tell his Familye, that he hath learned his doctrine by gods owne mouth, and no man may speake a­gainst him nor his doctrine, but by and by he is condemned for a blasphemer [Page] of the holy ghost. So sharpe and quick are these Elders of the familye in iudgement: it is tyme for you to helpe your decaying state, with some face, & shew of wordes. For your Familye & doubt not doe espy your poysoned doc­trine, which lay hid from them, vnder your darke speach, and vnaccostomed phrases: his workes declare his doc­trine to come from his owneacute; braine by illusion of Sathan, and none geueth testimony of him, but himselfe, and you his deceiued Elders.

Vitell.

NOw for asmuch as there are cer­tayne which make vp themselues slaunderously, and reprochfully, as ignoraūt of the promises of the Lord, where through they blaspheme the Lord, and his most holy service of Loue, saying it is the most detestable heresie: and so desame, and slaunder the Lorde his elected Minister H N. and all those that haue therein their exercise [...], which seeke onely there, [Page] through, and through the lawe of the Lord, how they mought liue, in that which is godly, and manly, in all lawfull▪ and dutyfull obedience, both to God, and gouernours, spiritu­all, and temporall, and lyue peace­ably, and deale vprightly with all men. &c.

Answere.

WHereas some in the feare of God and loue to his trueth, and in discharge of their duetye they owe vn­to his Church, haue manifested, and made knowen to the world, your doc­trine and behauiour: we doe not here­in slaunder you, wee onely seeke there­by your amendment and conuersion: and geue also warning vnto the sim­ple, that they may take heede vnto your painted cloakes, by which you shadow vntrue doctrine, to the pery­shing of their soules. [...] are not ig­noraunt of the promises of Christ our Lord: but to our great comfort, we de­pend thereō, neither doe we blasphem [...] the most holy seruice of Loue: yf you [Page] vnderstand by (Loue) God as often you do confound that word Lou [...] but when wee speake agaynst the seruice of Loue, we meane thereby suc [...] ser­uice, and vsages as are vsed [...]mong you, in your priuate co [...]ue [...]ti [...]les. As for HN. whome you tear me the Lord his elected minister: wee dare not so ac­knowledge him, neither thinke him worthy of y^• name: but a sower of he­resies almost worn out of vse, but now by him reuiued, & blased vnder new titles, and vnaccusto [...]ie [...] phrases, to amaze the simple. And for that he cal­leth himselfe a Prophet, and so is a­mong you accompted: wee tell you, that the more you extoll him, and his calling, the more you extenuate the office of Christ Iesus. If you seeke onely to serue the Lord, can not this be done without H N. or his seruice of Loue? Wee thinke that Christ hath left vs sufficient testimony in his word, how he will be serued in his church if HN, had neuer written. And for your dewtifull obedience to Ma­gestrates, spirituall, and temporall, [Page] that doth little appeare: for so much as you [...] an Author nor allow­ [...]d of by any Magistrate, and vse your priuate [...] forbidden by the Magistrate and both wright, & speake agaynst [...] of Christ, [...] by the publick Magistrate! and for your vpright dealing, they be [...] now it that are cōuersant amongst you Yf your priuate dealinges be no [...] then your publicke declarations & I suppose your vprightnes is not great­ly to be boasted of.

Vitell.

ANd yet▪ are complayned of to the Maiestrates with many false brutes and slaunderously reported of where through the Maiestrates are moued to trouble and persecute thē & yet their aduersaries haue not anything worthy of punishment agaynst them: but I see that the tyme is now, euen as it was when the Lord Iesus Christ was personally vpō the earth: for the Pharesies sayd that Iesus was [Page] a breaker of the Sabboth; they also found fault with his Disciples because they goyng through a corne fielde pluck [...] of the eares & rubbed out the corns & eat, for they were hungry, euē so the Family of loue, going through a corne field haue pluck [...] of eares of corne and rubbed and eaten thereof to satisfie their hūgry soules the which the enuiers of the loues vnitie haue of pied and are offended at them, and haue accused them therefore, but o­ther matter they haue not agaynst them and yet they say they are brea­kers of the Law. &c.

Aunswere.

THe complaynt that good men haue made agaynst you is not to slaunder you but of purpose to haue you and your Family depend vpon the Lord & his truth: & not vpon HN. or a­ny, although they boast neuer so much of the spirite of God: of trouble and persecution you complayne, and yet for your part you are safe inough, as [Page] for some of your Family whiche haue bene imprisoned and vpon submission released, therin no cruelty was shew­ed: if nothing could haue bene obiected agaynst them as you report, then was their imprisonment seueritye? is it not lawfull to chastice heresies, and to punish gainsayers of publick doctrine, in deede so you would haue it, that e­uery man might be left to the libertye of hys owne will, and so shoulde the world swarine with infinite dissentiōs and heresies, which y^• deuil doth more busily stir vp now then heretofore. It is the gospell and the doctrine thereof, that he breatheth out threates against, and stirreth vp his to spurne against the same very eagerlye, onely because it spoyleth him of his wished pray: through the firme faith and confidence [...] haue in our most tryumphant con­querour Christ Iesus.

Your comparysons are vne [...]all, because Christ was accused as a brea­ker of the saba [...]th, and his Disciples found fault withall that in hunger did [Page] rub the eares of corne: euen so you, as you would gladly haue men beléeue, are as innocent of crime as Christ and his Apostles in that you are charged: but we tel you plainly we finde faulte with you for satisfying your hungry soules: it is for the corrupt meate you haue chosen, which in deed is very poy­son, and wil bring your bodies & soules to vtter destruction euerlastingly (ex­cept ye repent) and because we warne you and wil you to be circumspect and take heede of such poysoned meate in your hunger, you are waspish aboue measure. If that you be hungrye in déede, Christ hath meate prepared in his holy word, sufficient to quench the hunger or thirst of any true Christian. But you haue chosen meate prepared by HN. which you like greatly and a­gréeth best with your stomaches, but we in the feare of the Lord warn you, that you take héede therof, for it will bring a surphet vncurable vnto your soules.

Vitell.

FOr which cause sake I am moued to make a short rehearsall, by what meanes the Lord of his good­ [...] me out of [...]hin [...] igno­rance, and also made manifest vnto me, the life & saluation. More I haue r [...]cyted the names▪ of two w [...]iter [...], which haue w [...]ten aga [...]ist the most holy seruice of loue, and agaynst the Lords minister HN. & also a part of their slaunderous reportes to the end that the louers of trueth might pray vnto the Lord, that he of his gracious goodnesse will geue those slaunderers vnderstanding that they might perc [...]iue and vnderstand their horrible blasphemy against the Lord and so humble themselues & repent, for I thinke it is all out of ignoraunte blindnes whatsoeuer they haue done whereby they might finde grace at the hands of the Lord &c.

Aunswere.

IT were more requisite that you would declare vnto vs, what was [Page] the cause that moued you, first to em­brace that wicked sect of Arrius, and many yeares became a leader of ma­ny pore soules into that gulfe of mis­chiefe, and then to shew some reason that moued you to forsake that opini­on, and imbrace this absurde impietye of HN. which so gréedely you haue cho­sen to satisfie your hunger, and you call it life and saluation. The two writers wil (the Lord assisting vs) verefie con­tinuall [...]e that in no po [...]nte we haue slaundered you nor your minister HN. And we refer the iudgement therof vnto the louers of truth, which shal indif­ferently vew the reasons & allegation [...] on both sides, without partiality.

As for the horrible blasphemye a­gainst the Lord, wherwith you bitter­ly charge vs, we deny y^• we haue com­mitted any such haynous offence a­gainst [...]od: whose reuerent name we adore with all humility: and vntil you can prooue vs such blasphemers you wil remayne in the sight of all God his children, an impudent lyar and a [Page] slaunderer. You are one of those illu­minate [...]lders, which keepe all the cō ­maundementes of God, and commit no sinne: but now it doth appeare of what spirit you are, & with what spi­rite you are led. Can not your cause be maintayned without such contume­lious and impudent speach? he that is a blasphemer of God, is without hope of mercy. Many Diuines haue studiously sought what the sin of blas­phemy is, but you haue with greate ease found out the same to be who so speaketh or wryteth againste HN. or his famely: must he needes be a blas­phemer? Temper your humors with more modesty for shame, els men wil thinke that your HN. hath published that of you, which cannot be found in you, which is, that when you are reui­led, taunted, or bitterly vsed, you as lambes in patience bear the same, you do euil verefie your authors words.

It is all out of ignorant blindenes what we haue done, as you say: are al blind and ignorant that speak against [Page] your pretended family? then are there many blinde and ignorant in y^• world: but I dout your great sight which you prophetically make a shew of in thi [...] libell, will declare very notablye your blindnes, though you brag very often of your sight. I would with all youre sight you saw rightly into your selues, thē should you perceiue that your new couenāt of perfectiō which you dream of, is a moere illusion of Sathan, and no where to be found in the holy scrip­tures.

Vitell.

IN asmuch as it hath pleased the Lord of his gratious goodnes, to make manifest vnto me (as most vn­worthy) through his most holy ser­uice of loue, in misunderstanding ig­norance & error, so haue I humbled my selfe before the Lord and his Mi­nister HN. as the greatest sinner a­mong sinners, desiring the Lord that he of his goodnes woulde extend his mercy ouer me, and forgeue me al my [Page] offences, wherein I had liued con­trary to his commaundementes, lawes, and ordinaunces, so that the Lord at his time when he sawe it good, through his grace released me out of my calamitye, and also made manifest vnto me, through his most holy seruice of Loue, and his elected minister HN. his pro­mises which he made with Abra­ham, where through he will blesse all the generatiōs of the earth, and also how, when, and wherein they are fulfilled, &c.

Aunswere.

H [...]re is expressed the maner of this mans conuersion, and how he came to be of the Familye of Loue: wherein are many shewes of piety, and humility requisite in a Christian, but where he sa [...]th, he humbled him­selfe be [...]ore the Lord, and his cle [...]ed m [...]nister HN. therein he bewrayeth himselfe: we are taught in all our troubles to call vpon the Lord. Innoca [Page] me in die tribul [...]tionis [...] ▪ to humble our selues before the Lo [...]d, it is good and conuenient, but before HN. what warrant haue you so to do? why ioine you HN. and God together in [...]our humiliation? I will not crye out no you doe, that this is blasphem [...]e: yet I tell you, it is not Christianlyke spoken. I know not how you will qu [...]li [...]ie this your speach, you say that the Lo [...]de when he saw it good released you of all offence [...], wherein you had liued contrary to his commaundements: but now being released doe you sinne any mo [...]e? [...]f you would speake plain­lye as you haue vttered your repen­taunce, so now resteth that you should also speake of your perfection, and of the state wherein you now stand. For that is the matter that we would haue you to be playne in: but that is con­cealed, and kept secret, least your ly­bertye should be espyed.

[...]ou say further that through the seruice of Loue, and his elect minister HN. all the promises made vnto [...] ­braham, [Page] how, when, and where, they are fulfilled, and made manyfest vnto you. And I pray you, could you not imbrace the promise made vnto Abra­ham, without HN. are not the scrip­tures sufficient to manifest the same without him? surely this is great pitye that you extoll your Aucthor so aboue measure, the Prophets haue written thereof: Christ and his Apostles, haue opened to vs, how, when, and where, those promises are fulfilled sufficētly: [...]f HN. had neuer written.

Vitell.

MOreouer there was made ma­nifest vnto me, through the same seruice of Loue, and the Lords minister HN. the comming agayne of Christ with his sayntes, and his righteous iudgement, wherein he will iudge the world, with mercye and faythfulnes, and erect agayne his righteousnes, and euen so acō ­plish all, whatsoeuer he hath spo­ken through the mouthes of his [Page] seruauntes, the Prophets: from the beginning of the world, according to his promises.

Aunswere.

NOw you affirme that there is made manifest to you the com­ming agayne of Christ with his sayntes. &c. but because you ad not in the resurrection, wée are doubtfull what you meane by the comming a­gayne of Christ, least you vnderstand it a comming in this lyfe: Because you adde that there shall be accom­plished, whatsoeuer hath bene spoken by the Prophets from the beginning.

[...]f you had ben a true Christian, you needed not HN. to manifest these thinges, they are sufficiently opened to vs in the holy historye, & by his be­loued Apostle Paule: yf you had stay­ed your selfe with their manifestatiō, you should not haue looked for your HN. to make knowen the same: but it is to be doubted by your speach, that you meane some other comming of [Page] Christ in this lyfe, and not when he shall come, at the general day of Christ his second comming, when he shall come with glory, maiesty, and powre to iudge the world with righteousnes. You affirme that then he shall accom­plish whatsoeuer he spake by the Pro­phets from the beginning. The Pro­phets spake as they were commaun­ded, to kingdomes, and Cityes, certe­fying of the destruction determined, and the captiuities whereunto the peo­ple should be ledde: many of their Prophesyes confirmed the comming of Christ &c. which are alredy come to passe. Your meaning I doubt of, but I will not take you so short, nor hunt for any aduauntage of wordes: but I tell you playne, your speach is very doubt [...]ull.

Vitel.

NOw whē the Lord of his good­nes, had [...]eleased me out of my blindne [...], and opened mine eyes, th [...] ̄ saw I, that all people vpon earth [Page] which were withou [...] the house of Loue, were all [...]rapped in vnbeliefe: and that there [...]as no [...]hing among them but va [...]i [...]un [...]e, [...]tr [...]fe, and con­ten [...]ion, reuiling, blaspheming, mis­using, derid [...]ng, taun [...]ng, and [...]hec­king, and euery one would haue right, and be the comm [...]l [...]ye of Christ, and condemned all others for heretic [...]es, and false Christi [...]ns, none would be culpable, or beare the blame, but euery one put the fault vpon an other.

Aunswere.

WEre you so relesed of your blindnes, that you were not subiect to be blind againe? for that is a questiō. were your eyes so opened as HN. sayth of himselfe in the pre [...]ace of his p [...]ophesye: the sight of mine eyes be­came clearer then the Christall, and mine vnderstanding brighter then the sunne? [...]ou would faine counterfaite your Aucthor in wordes, which be­come neither of you both with your [Page] opened eyes: you saw that all people which were without the house of loue, were wrapped in vnbeliefe: which in playne speach is, that all the world which hold not your doctrine, nor be­leue it, are vnbeleuers. If this be true, then are you vncharitable to lurke in corners, and hide this doctrine among yourselues, and will let so few be per­takers thereof: No feare of torment, no threatninges of men should pre­uaile nor stonish you, if this your say­ing were true: is there nothing vpon earth but variaunce, contention &c? You speake of your sight, but you haue put on a payre of blinde specta­ [...]le [...], and so see nothing. For if you saw aright, you should to your com­fort, s [...]e the Gospell preached, true mortification vsed among some, and for contentions and strife, you, & your Aucthor HN. are the cause thereof: who possessed with phantasticall spi­rites, haue troubled the quiet procee­ding of Christ his gospell: in that Sa­than rayseth vp sectes, and errors, it [Page] is a manifest tokē, that he enuieth the prosperitye of the same gospell. For in tyme of Poper [...], when men follow­ed dreames, and illusions, then Sathā was quiet: but now the Gospell is published to the comfort of Ch [...]istes Church: now [...]athan besturres him­selfe in his members, to moue con­tentious persons, to disquiet the [...]oy­full proceeding thereof. Where wheat doth grow, ther cockle, and [...]arnell will shew it selfe: you are those that make the contention, and quarell, and yet cry, what disssentions are in the world? you say euery one challen­geth to be called the comminaltye of Christ: Why flee ye the name, Church, putting in stede thereof: comminaltes: but so you may be lyke your Aucthor in wordes, you care not how vnlyke vnto the scriptures you teach.

Vitell.

ANd I saw that by that occasion there was much murmuring, vprore, rebellion, disobed [...]ence to [Page] God, and to spirituall and temporall gouernors, and the lord caused me to see also that there should be no peace erected, which should remain or continue without the most holy seruice of loue, &c. Also then shal no kingdome prosper which is agaynst or despiseth the kingdom of the loue For it is the kingdome of God the Father, of God the Sonne, & of God the holy Ghost. For the kingdome of Israell shall be set vp againe, and the Children of loue shall raign there in with God and all his Sayntes, vnto whom be laud, honor, and pra [...]se, frō generation to generation, both now and euer, Amen.

Answere.

AFter this mans blindenes was restored, then he saw much mur­muring &c. An [...] yet you could neuer se rightl [...] into your selues, for if you cold then should you perceue that you your selues, the Papists, Anabaptistes, Pe­lagians, and Libertines are those that [Page] make the rebelliō, and are cause of the dissention and disobedience to spiritu­al and temporall gouernors. And fur­ther you saw no peace should be on earth, or continue without the seruice of loue. The doutfull significatiō of this word Loue is often confounded amōg your Familie, sometime you woulde haue it taken for God, sometime for Christ, and sometime for your wholl doctrine and profession, and sometime for a property or vertue proceeding frō God: but to take it simply as I thinke you mean it for the order and manner of your doctrine and seruice of God: Then we aunswere, that Christ his peace we haue inioyed in his church, and it hath contynued with his church since his assention, and yet I confesse that such was his pleasure, to afflicte his church, to suffer wicked persons to persecute the same, yet his peace the church neuer wanted. Therfore your sight was very dimme, when you saw such things.

Moreouer you saw that no king­dome [Page] should prosper which is agaynst the loue: Kingdoms and nations haue prospered, and do prosper by the pro­tection of the almighty, with his bles­sing, and yet are against your Familie of loue. Therfore cleare your specta­cles, and looke better vpon the matter, for surely I thinke you were in some dreame whē you writ this. And wher as you would haue vs beleeue y^• king­dome and seruice of the loue, is y^• kingdome of God the father, the sonne and the holy Ghost, this you haue brought in to make the world beleeue that your Familie of loue is nothing els but the true doctrine sent from God, but you herein deceue your selues and others, for the doctrine taught among you, is strange, and no where to be found in the word of the Lord: and your Au­thor HN. geueth testimonye on [...]ly of himself, without warrant from God, or his word, therfore your doctrine in the Familie of loue is not from God the Father, &c.

If you say that others also geue te­stimony [Page] of HN. his doctrine, & name vnto vs it is your Fidelitas, who in deede in his booke chapter 2. sex. 8. say­eth as followeth.

You shal furthermore vnderstād▪ that the iudgement which the God of heauen hath declared through HN. vpō earth, & set forth through the same his minister, is very true, & that also the same iudgement, pro­nounceth and declareth the right forme and state of all what is in hea­uen and vpon earth, of all what is Gods and mans, spirituall and hea­uenly, and of all what is naturall, right, and reasonable: And that no such wonderfull workes coulde be wrought nor brought forth by any man, vnles God were with him, &c.

In deed this fellow Elder Fidelitas, testyfieth much of your HN. But whe­ther his testimony be true, let vs exa­mine it a litle. If the iudgemēt which God hath declared through HN. be very true, thē was there no truth before. For, HN. teacheth such a doctrine as [Page] was neuer heard of in the world since the creation, especially the doctrine how man is godded with God &c. and tha [...] man and God had all one order, being and nature. Also the doctrine of pe [...]e [...]on to be in this life attayned vnto, and that the law is possible to be kept, all which if it be very true what [...]N. hath declared and set sorth, then doth the holy Ghost in the scriptures teach vs contrary, as shall appeare more [...]n treating of the particularities of these poynts.

Moreouer if we would geue credite to this Fideli [...]as, he would haue vs be­leeue that N [...]. pronounceth, and de­clareth the right state of all, what is in heauen and vpon earth, what is Gods and mans, spiritual and heauenly, na­turall right and reasonable &c. Belike he thought his bookes should neuer haue been perused by any, but of such as are drowned in the drowsie dremes o [...] this fantastical doctrine. One More of [...]u [...]er, in [...]ng [...]wardes dayes, and one [...] of Manchester, in [Page] this our Quéenes dayes, tolde of such vayne and friuolo [...]s matters, but they were punished as Lunatikes.

And whereas your Fidelitas, sayth that no such works could be wrought by anye, vnlesse the Lord were with him, this is as strongly affirmed as the other part is monstrous and vn­godly. For I praye you examine what are the works that HN. hath so notably brought forth, which doth ma­nifest y^• God is with him. His bookes peraduenture you mean [...]. What his bookes are, and out of what spirit they procéed, is easely perceiued. A simple wit hauing such a guide, could deuise agaynst Christ his doctrine as fine riddles as HN. hath published: & should carry a more shew of truth then his bookes do. For schollers and children are able to confute his follies suffici­ently: they cary such absurdities with them, both against the Scriptures of God, and against all common reason, and nature.

The kingdome of Israell shal be [Page] set vp again, & the childrē of loue shall raigne therin (you say) but when shall this your prophesie take place you tell vs not. In deede Dauid George tolde vs before the like prophe [...]y, that the true house of Dauid should be erected, and the children of loue should raigne therin. Why delite you your selues with such speaches? For in this worl [...] these thinges according to the letter, [...]hall not happen, but they are spoken to assure vs of the resurrection, and to shadow the ioyes of the kingdome of heauen, whereby our harts should be lifted vp with expectation of his pro­mise.

Vitell.

BEhold these be the causes wher­through the lord hath moued me to minister the seruice of loue vnto other, wherein I haue sought on­ly the honor of God, and the salua­tion of al people which hope in god, and long for his righteousnes. Also I haue (through the goodnesse of the [Page] lord) met with certan good willingn­ons, which haue submitted them obediently and faithfully vnto the lord and his gratious word, which al­so haue followed the coūcel of christ to the clensing of their hartes, and therin doth their light shine before men, wherin they seeke the laude of the lord and the saluation of all mē.

Answere.

WHen you had séene dissen­tion, vprores, contentiō &c. in the world, then the Lord (you say) moued you to minister the seruice of loue vnto others, you toke the afore­sayd [...]robles as a fit occasion geuē you to begin your doctrine, surely you be­w [...]ay your selfe in your speach: You thought it was good fishing when the waters were troubled, and tooke occa­sion to teach false doctrine when you saw great broiles, and tumults in the world. But where you affirme that the Lord moued you to do this▪ wher­by shall we know that this your bare [Page] affirmation is true, onely because you say so, but the holy Ghost hath warned vs not to geue credit to such. Ier. 14. ver. 14. sayth, The Prophetes prophesie l [...]es in my name, I haue not sent them, ne­ther did I commaund them, nether did I speake to them, but they prophesie to you a fal [...]e vision, diuination, vanity, and de­ [...]eitf [...]lnes of their own harts. Also Eze. 13. ver. 3. Wo be to the foolish Prophets that follow their own spirit & haue seene nothing. We may not beleue euery spirit, but try the spirit whether he be of God Iohn. 4.1.

The Lord moued you not to leue your arte & calling, and to minister a strange doctrine to the people: but the spirit of pride and vaynglory, and a de­sire of singularity pu [...]t vp your mind. Like as in time past you did as eager­ly maintayn other strange, & monste­rous opinions.

The causes that moued you to spred your doctrine, are not sufficient, you haue thrust in your selfe into a functi­on and calling, nether allowed of god, [Page] nor ordayned by m [...]n, and thi [...] your ministery is disobedience to God and the publick magistrate, neither h [...]ue you herein fought the honor of God▪ & saluation of al people, as you af [...]irm [...]. If you had sought God his honor your voice should publickly haue been heard and not in corners.

In that you haue met with certayn good willing ones, which haue submit­ted themselues &c. therin we beshrew you, & lament that any simple soules are deceiued by your perswasions, and in deede it seemeth some such there are that geue eare to your sugred wordes, For, the poyson of aspes is vnder youre tongue. Psal. 14.

Why come you not [...]orth to mayn­tayn such doctrine as you haue taught? why proue you not your doctrin by the holy Scripture? Why suffer you your schollers to be troubled and impryso­ned? but for your selfe you are sa [...]e i­nough, and when they should render a reason of their hope and faith, then they vtterly deny your doctrine. It [Page] séemeth that such a principle you haue taught thē, to affirme and to deny, only keeping their conscience secret.

Now where you say that your good willing ones, or schollers, their light hath shone before men, wher [...]by you would heare vs in hand, that your pu­pil [...] be men of excellent life, & as you set them out, so do they your life as ap­peares by their letters: so one of you commēdeth and prayseth another, an [...] so must you [...]éedes do, when you want good neighbor [...], y^• best way i [...] to praise your selues.

Vitell.

ALso I haue geuen forth certayn bookes, which are translated word for word as neare as we could, out of the bokes of HN. and some of them haue come to the hands of en­uyous persōs, which are diuil [...]ed with the deuill, either diuelishly minded, for they be slaunderers, and li [...]rs, and also blasphemers, whilest they haue [...]la [...]phemed th [...] holy Ghost, and hi [...] [Page] most holy seruice of loue. Moreouer, they hau [...] [...]ayled at, [...]euyled, condemned, despised, and blasphemed the Lord his elected minister HN. If this come not out of enuy, although they say nay, then I know no enuyous spi­rites. And although there be many enuiors of the loue and her most ho­ly seruice, yet are the [...]e two horryble blasphemers of late rysen vp, whose bookes ar [...] come to my hands. The one is named Steuen Batman, the o­th [...]r I.R. But they might both be na­med with one name, Tertullus, if they cōt [...]nue in their lying, wherof I must wryte although I haue no pleasure in such workers of wickednes.

Aunswere.

THat the bokes of HN. were tran­slated out of Dutch by you, we knew before, but in distributing them to the Quéenes subiects without any allowance of the magistrate, contrary to law, therin we tel you, you haue not dealt li [...]e a [...]rue subiect, nor a christiā, [Page] you complayned of disobedience to magistrates, but you your selfe are the most disobedient of all others. And some of those bookes haue come into my hands, whom you tearme enuious and diuelled with the diuell. Strange Doctrine must néedes haue strange tearmes. Your iudgement of me and master Batman we wil only answere with this saying. The Lord geue you a better minde, and a more modest spi­rite. I would you were as free from heresies and false doctrine, as we are from a diuilish mind.

You affirme we haue blasphemed the holy Ghost, and his elect minister HN. Here is sharpe iudgement, and such as should not be in any of Christ his church: this doth well become you [...]lders in HN. his Family. Surely if there were no other matter in y^• wo [...]ld to discerne your doctrine by, your own poysoned words would bewrap your spirit, & of what housholde you are of. The childrē of God do know that you are herein, manifest and wicked liars, [Page] but you haue no pleasure in such wor­kers of wickednes, and no maruayle, being come to that perfection that you are, we poore sinners are despised in your sight: but our hope is in the lord Iesus, who doth not despise sinners, but for vs he shed his bloud, and for you which are so righteous, in whom no motion of sinne can be found, I doubt doth this saying appertayne: I came not to call the righteous, but sin­ners to repentance.

Vitell.

THis blasphemous Bateman, with his slaūdering, and lying, blasphe­meth the holy ghost. For he nameth the Familye of Loue, a cormorant [...]owle, and an hereticall sect: where­as notwithstanding, there is no Ca­tholick Church, nor comminal [...]ye of Saintes, but the Familye of Loue, and therein he condēneth the holy scripture, the law, the Proph [...]ts, and also Christ, and his Apostles [...] moreo­uer he sayth, that the Lord his elec­ted [Page] Minister HN. is of seede of secta­ries, whereas his doctrine is altoge­ther agaynst all sectaryes.

Aunswere.

TO Follow a little of your Retho­rick, you forget both Christianitye and humanitye: so intemperate you are in your blasphemous tearmes, be­cause Master Bateman calleth your Familye of Loue, a cormorant [...]owle, doth it follow that he is a blasphemer of the holy ghost? this is such a conse­quence as best becomes your schoole, and your franticke humors are there­by made knowen to the World. Men would not thinke, that such speach should proceede from the [...]lders of the Family: this were two much, [...]f your yoūg nouices should in their brau [...]es, and con [...]i [...]ions vse: but you to wright such vngodly, and vncomely speach aduisedly, it cannot be colored by any shaddow of wordes: touching Maister Bateman, he is a learned, reu [...]rent, and godly preacher, neither can your [Page] vngodly tearmes once blemish, nei­ther his person, nor his calling. I would you did follow that vocation, and calling, wherein you were once placed, no worse then Maister Bate­mā doth his calling, in discharge wher­of, you, nor none of your Familye can iustly reprehend him, neither in lyfe, nor doctrine, which is sufficient testimony of his demeanour: For i [...] you had any thing to accuse him of, you would not conceale it▪ so bitter are your stomakes, as appeareth by your vngodly tearmes.

Whereas you say, that there is no catholicke Church, b [...]t the Familye of Loue: this is as stra [...]nge as your other wordes are horrible, and mon­strous. For where was your Familye before Dauid George, or HN. were borne & some of your here [...]ies in dé [...]de, were maintayned before, by Pellagi­ans, by [...]nabaptistes, by Papistes, and such lyke: but your generall doctrine, was neuer patcht together, but of late by HN. in Flaunders: a place as apt [Page] to brede errors, as you are to broch [...] them: in condemning HN. you woul [...] haue the world beleue, that Maister Bateman condemneth the lawe, the Prophetes, Christ, and his Apostles. With what impudent face can you a [...]o [...]ch this? must [...] credit your owne wo [...]des, and testimonyes onely, because you say your doctrine com­meth from Sion? Christ hath instruc­ted his Church sufficiently, to credit no such Fables.

An other reason you produce, that Maister Bateman doth accuse HN. to be of the seede of certaine sectaris, and to cleare him thereof, you [...]ay that his doctrine is altog [...]her agaynst all sectaryes. It is the mann [...]r of im­pious perso [...], to flee the [...]anies of the facult [...]e they vse, as the theese, the murtherer, th [...] harlot, the dronkerd, or such lyke, they would not be called by those names, which vi [...]es they im­b [...]ace: for it is odious vnto thē: so you to cl [...]are HN. of partaking w^t sondry sectes doe affirme that he is agayn [...]t [Page] all sectaryes: that he as a master o [...] sectaryes might be alone. But this aunswere is not sufficient to cleare HN. to be voyd of heresis, and sectes, [...]t were expediē [...] sor his purga [...]ion, that he should publish vnto the world, if he dealt playnely, a boke to approue his calling, and shew vs in plaine speach, that his doctrine is sound, and agree­ing vnto the scriptures: otherwise he may deceaue irroneous heads, such as you are: but God his children I hope will take heede of your [...]ollyes.

Vitell.

NOw euen lyke as the forenamed Bateman, hath slaundered HN. euen so doe you also I. R. For you say that HN. was thought to be the chiefe of Dauid Georges sect after his death, and so you doe slaunder him by presupposing: for I know they be false imagi [...]tions, all what you ima­gine of him: for you dispise him be­cause he sayth, he is a Prophe [...] sent of God. But the tyme may come, that [Page] you sh [...]l [...]inde his Prophe [...]ie true, and although you cannot beleue it, yet you ought not to despise it, neither ought you to despise the dutch lan­gua [...]e, which you count to be rude: whe [...]ein the Lord, through his Mini­ster [...]N. hath brought fourth his most holy seruice of loue. For I know you neuer counceled with the L [...]d, and therefore you know nothing of his se [...]retes.

Aunswere.

WHerein I haue slaundered your Aucthor [...]N. in supposing him to be chiefe of Dauid Georges sect, you show no reason to the contrary: you af­firme that alike we haue slaundered him, and I thinke euen so: For nei­ther of vs haue slaundered him in de [...]d, as [...]arre as I can vnderstand: to cleare him of accusation, you onely say all i [...] false, what I haue supposed of him: you thinke that is inough among your Familye: for your word among the [...] is of some credit: but it be [...]oueth, you [Page] should by substantiall reasons, cleare him of such matter as I haue charged him with: your bare denyall with vs, is not sufficient: for the cre [...]ite of your Aucthor▪ you should say somewhat: by your silence, and bare denyall, men doe verely thinke the supposition is very true.

That he was one of Dauid [...]eorges sect, I haue laid downe the reasons that moued me so to thinke, in a little booke, called the displaying of the Fa­milye of Loue: amongest other rea­sons there alledged, I set downe cer­tayne articles o [...] the coherence, and a­greement of doctrine: and how lykely they agree together, by perusing the same, may be perceaued: whereunto this man thinkes it sufficient for him to say, all is false what I haue imagi­ned agaynst him: but your wordes ar [...] no warrantes▪ you say I dispise him, because he a [...]firmeth that he is a Pro­phet sent of God: his person I hate not: onely his doctrine, and vaine pro­phesyes I vtterly mislyke: and most of [Page] all, because many of this our natiue countrye of [...]ngland, are by him, and his vayne prophesies deluded, and de­ceaued: and being moued with zeale for my brethren, and countreymen, I haue bent my selfe, with such poore s [...]ill as I haue, to vtter his follyes, and vaintyes: there be many learned in Christ his Church, farre better ab e to haue written hereof: to whose office it properly belongeth: to clense the Church being defiled w^t heresies: yet I take y^• man to be none▪ of the Church of Christ, that thinketh he hath no of­fice in his Church.

Yf I dislyke him, because h [...] [...]arth he is a Prophet &c. I haue great rea­son, and good warrant so to doe. Iere. chap. 23. verse. 16. sayth, Heare [...]ot the wordes of the Prophetes, which pro­phesie vnto you va [...]itye, they speake the [...] of their owne [...]art, and not the [...] of the Lord: we are also warned by Christ, and his Apostles, not to geue credit to such vaine Prophets, and false teachers. Peter Epistle 2. [Page] chap. 12. There shall be false teachers among you, which priuily shall bring i [...] damnable heresies euen denying the Lord that hath bought thē, with infinite pla­ces more. Since Christ our Lord ascē ­ded into heau [...] office of prophesing▪ and foretelling of thinge [...], haue cea­sed in the Church, onely the Apostles were [...] with the spirite of God, and by the power of the same spirite, foretold of many thinges that should happen [...] but it ceased [...], ma­ny haue risen vp, and haue prowdly prophessed: but they [...] ben con [...] ­ned as false Prophetes, euen as your HN. [...].

[...]ou say the tyme may come, tha [...] I shall [...]inde his prophesies true, you put the tyme vncertaine: but you haue told your Familye in corners, as I am [...] informed, that many of your prophets sayinges, should eare thi [...] haue bin ful [...]lled, touching the publick receiuing of your [...]octrine, which are proued false, and vntrue: al­though I [...] beleue it, yet I ought [Page] not to dispise it, (you say,) why I ought to beleue it, you render no rea­son: we are forbidden to credite any such, as I haue proued. In y^• I ought not to dispise it, I pray you shew some cause [...] tho vanitye t [...]at be [...]ttereth, touching▪ hi [...] [...]ference with almigh­ty God▪ how the power of God cōpas­sed him [...]bout with a [...] &c. and agayne h [...] sayth: th [...] being of God, gaue forth his sound & [...], and spake vnto [...]e HN. through the spirite of his Loue, all thes [...] wordes, and sayd: [...] there was ne [...]e [...] [...]ny that writ in Christes Church, that e­uer vsed any such vayne, and prowde speach.

I hau [...] sayd, y^• it is requisit [...], that HN. if he will neede [...] haue his new office of a Prophet to be credited, that he must worke miracles▪ which it se­meth he doeth: as some in your Fami­lye, in sadn [...]s haue tould: amongest other matters, this is auouched, that NH. is not ignoraunt in any lan­guage, no not the learned tongues, [Page] he hath written an [...]pistle vnto the Byshops here in [...]ngland in latin. I thinke he hath his knowledge and learning by some bequest, as a legacy: also it was affirmed to me of credit, that some of the Familye, going ouer into Flaunders to him, be tould them of all their message, and instructions before they spake: such markes and notes, you geue out to your Familye, to establishe your blinde Prophet.

You say I ought not to dispise the Dutch language, wherein the Lord hath brough [...] forth his most holy ser­uice of Loue.

To dispise any language I may not: onely in cōparison of other lear­ned tongues, I haue sayd it is rude. And was there no seruice of God be­fore, among other nations, but now brought forth in the Dutch tongue: I would that there were no more he­resies brought forth, in the Dutch tongue. but onely this of N [...]. but it is knowen to many learned, y^• sundry heresies are written, and published in [Page] that language, to the griefe of God his children. You further say, that I ne­uer councelled with the Lord, & there­fore know nothing of his secreates.

You sat vpon your iudgement seat when you writ this: how know you that I neuer coūelled with the Lord? to councell with God wée may as we are taught, (that is,) in praying and hearing of his most holy word, which I hope in the Lord, that euer he will guide me with his holy spirite to doe, and performe all the dayes of my lyfe: as for your secret Reuelations, and Prophesyes, I am vtterly ignoraunt of, they are things proper to your Fa­milye, but not to the Church of Christ.

Vitel.

MOreouer you writ not right, where as you call it, his Euan­geli [...]um R [...]gn [...] yet doth Saint Paule say, [...]f ou [...] Gospell be [...]id, it is from them that be lost whole minde the God of this world hath blinded &c. For it i [...] not writtē his and you finde [Page] fault with the poo [...]e Family of Loue, as though th [...]y d [...]ny it [...]i [...]h thei [...] mouth, & keepe it [...] in their ha [...]t [...]: but you confesse the Lord▪ [...] your mouth, and your hart is f [...]ll of bitter­nes, and euen so you deny him with your hart, and mouth.

Aunswere.

I Haue called a booke which H N. 14 hath published, his gospel, because it is another, and not agreeing with Christ his gospel, therfore rightly ter­med his. You would excuse it by saint Paule, as though HN. had as good right to wryte and publish a gospel as that shining vessel S. Paul. Whether will you lift vp your prophet? so high, that with Lucifer he may be cast down as low: we are warned not to credite any, bringing another gospell, he is accursed as sayth the holy ghost, there was neuer any godly man since the A­postles time, [...] that durst be so presump­tuous, as intitle any broke, and call it a gospell, 'therefore your Author hath [Page] dealt therin presumptuously and wic­kedly.

Now, whereas I find fault with the poore Family in affirming & denying. I would I had not some cause so to doo, but where you ad this word poore if it be so, you are the cause therof, for with your manyfold collections to set out the Authors works, you haue in d [...]ede made many an honest & wealthy housholder poore, as I can testifie, and name the parties, and you haue beene charged herewith before this time.

You say moreouer, that I confesse the Lord with my mouth, & deny him with my hart. If this be true, then am I worthy great reprehention, but if it be false, then are you worthy the reward of a lyar and slaunderer.

In deede it is somewhat gréenous vnto you, and your patience can scarce beere it, that I haue so openly manife­sted you, and your Author, yet therin I confesse I haue done nothing but my duety which I owe vnto the church of Christ, that the simple may be warned [Page] of your suttle snares and deceits, wher with you seeke to intrappe God his children, to make them be partakers of your manifest impieties, but the Lord will preserue his euermore,

Vitell.

MOreouer, wheras you writ the 15 life of HN▪ & of his birth, you writ mo lyes then truth, therefore it appeareth you know not where he was borne, neither was he euer at M [...]ster as you sayd, nor any man for him. For he was euer against all re­bellion and disorder of life, and that can be tryed by his works, and alo testified yet in Amsterdam, for the Rulers permitted him to deale with those sectaries, for to see if he could perswade them, because they saw the Lord had geuen him wisdome and vnderstanding. But euen as it chaunced to our Lord Iesus, which was iudged to be a companyon of Publi­cans and sinners, also a wine bibber, and a drunkard. Euen so do they say [Page] of his minister HN. & all such things hath hee borne in the patience of Christ &c.

Answere.

15 IN wryting the life of HN. I haue done it by the t [...]stimony of his ho­nest neighboures who knew hun better then you, l [...]nger then you, and before you knew him. Their testimo­ny wil stand for truth, although for his cr [...]dite sake, you wil not beleue it, and account it lyes. I neuer sayd he was in Munster. I affirme that he went a­bout to ayd his brethrē in Munster as was supposed: you say it appeareth by his works that he is against all rebeli­lion and disorder of life: but how doth it appeare by you hi [...] Family, to teac [...] a secret doctrine in corners against the law, and stir vp the people to imbrace the same▪ What wisdome and vnder­standing was geuen to him, whereof you boast▪ Little is shewed either in him or you. He is a wise man that cō ­tenteth himself with the simple truth, [Page] taught in the scriptures, an [...] seeketh not by strange deurses to p [...]blis [...] doctrine contrary th [...]runto. W [...]sdome is shewed in humilitie, and not i [...] v [...]rne ostentatio [...] and boasting of the spi [...]ite of God, and of secret reuelati [...]s, wher of your Author is full. A wise man de­lyteth not in singularity, neither thin­keth, speketh, nor boasteth of any wis­dome in him. If God haue bestowed any excellent gifte in man, let it ap­peare to his glory, without ostentati­on. [...]ou make your compa [...]sons vn­equall, because Christ our Lord vn­truely was accused to be a wine bib­ver, a drunkard, &c. So likewise his minister HN. which he is content to beare in the patience of Christ.

What patience is in your Author I know not, but if we may discern the patience of the master by his scholl [...]rs, then I can testifie of many of [...]our [...]n­patience. What wordes and blasphe­mies you haue charged me with b [...] this your libell appeares, and wh [...]t taunts and vncomely speaches, mired [Page] with manifest slaunder, in your let­ters appeareth. Besides what private letters and threates I haue receaued at your hands of the Family, I coulde here declare, but that you are so pati­ent, as you affirme your HN. is, I finde it not. The Lord geue vs all pa­tience, that in seeking his truth, we may imitate his patience which sayd: Learn of me. &c.

Vitell.

16 NOw you say he nameth Iohn Caluin, Marten Luther, the Pa­pistes and the Anabaptistes to be 4. castels whiche is also false. For there are no such names mencioned of in all his bookes, neither is there anye such bookes of his, therefore Adrian Gisling hath tolde you a lye and you haue fortefied i [...].

Answere.

16 I Sayd in the displeing of the Fa­mily, that one Adrian Gisling had read in a book called the glasse of righ­teousnes [Page] of [...]. Castells, vnder the same mens names mencioned, nowe this man is sure HN. neuer writ any such booke, and therefore must needes be a lye. I am credibly informed that HN. hath written 27 smale treatises and [...]pistles, and this man hath seene all as hee sayth, but let the thing be true or false, the matter is not great: the party that told me is liuing and of honest credite and may as well be beleued as you: I pray you are there no bookes called the glasse of righteous­nes, for he compiled ii. of that title, I neuer saw any of those bookes in deed but if there be no such then HN. hath mocked the Family, for he still in his bookes referreth hys reader vnto the same booke called the glasse of righte­ousnes. And in deede I doubt that book doth vtter more of your Aucthors se­cret doctrine, then his smale pāphlets: Fewe or none in the Familye haue it that I coulde euer learne, if you haue seene all the Authors works then you haue also seene that, and you keepe it [Page] secret least your Family should not or could not well brooke the doctrine con­teined in the same. Let the booke be seene and keepe it not hidden, it stan­deth you vpon nowe to let the worlde tast the doctrine which you haue affir­med Princes & king [...]omes afore this tyme should haue imbraced.

Vitell.

17 MOreouer you sayd he maryed his daughter Mary to a youn­ker: that is true, but not at Emdē: al­so you say that HN. abused a wo­mā, that is a false report, so to report of him for he neuer abused any wo­man neither taught he any other do­ctrine concerning the immortality: but the doctrine of Christ. For Christ sai [...]h he that beleeueth in me though he were dead yet should he liue, and who so liueth and beleeueth shal ne­uer dye neither was he accused to the Rulers for any such matter, but he was complayned of by certayne enuiou [...] persōs which affirmed that [Page] he was one that taught a strange do­ctrine, and th [...] Maiestrates gaue cre­dite vnto the false witnesses, & there­upon sought for him, and because they founde hym not, they delt ex­treemely with his Family and caried away his goodes.

Aunswere.

THat his daughter Mary was 17 maryed to a yonker you affirme: Therefore not all are lyes, which are by his neighbors reported of him, as you sayd before: & why may not all the rest be true, onely (you) speaking con­trary? some of these persons were at the mariages, which haue testified their knowledge. I thinke at that tyme, you were not acquainted with HN. nor his doctrine: and therefore, your bare denyall is onely heresay: but these are no great matters to stand vpon: you confesse that he could not be found, being sought for, then was he fled, before his accusation was for strange doctrine, and not for a woman, as you auouch: But certeynly, If the [Page] Magistrates should cary away his goodes▪ for an accusation of strange doc­trine, then were they not indifferent, neither can I be brought to credit your speach, nor thinke so vnreuerently of any Magistrates: but why sied he, if he were not guilty of any crime?

In [...]mden men know, that many Religions had peaceable habitation, without gaynsaying of the Magestrat: If the spirite of God, were so mighty in him, as he sayth it is: why did he not stay to render a reason of his doctrine, before the Magestrate▪ the perticulers being examined, your simple denyall agaynst so many witnesses, is scarce credible. But at [...]mden, from that day to this, opēly he durst not be séene: therefore some other matter was layd to his charge, then professing a strange doctrine. For his credite sake, it had be [...] conuenient, to haue geuen some reason, to proue that he was accused for no other cause: let the world iudge indifferently, where is more proba­bilitye.

Vitell.

ANd after there was iustice desi­red,17 then they restored agayne his goodes vnto his children: but there was much taking away by the vntrue officers, for there was no in­uitory taken therof: but whether he went, and where he had his abode, that shall in tyme be manifest: when as the Lord shall moue the hartes of the Mages [...]ates, to des [...]re to know the ground of the trueth, then shall it all be declared to them: but the trueth thereof, is yet vnknowen vnto you: therefore you may be content, and not trouble your selfe therwi [...]h.

Answere.

THe Mag [...]strates you say rede [...]iue­red 17 h [...] goodes to his children: ther­fore, they were men that imbraced Iustice, and so would they haue mi­nistred Iustice to HN. If he would [...] stayd: but the safest way was to pre­uent the matter by flight, you are very [...]riuye to HN. and his doing [...]s, that [Page] can so redely tell what was missing: now the Magestrates here shall know the trueth where he is, and where he hath made his abode euer since: but sure it is little to be regarded where he is, and I thinke the Magestrates doe hartely wishe, that he had neuer ben borne, nor you neither: he for deuising your new familye, and you for pub­lishing the same to our countrye, and translating t [...]e bookes, which certain­ly was not done lyke a godly Christ [...]ā, nor a true [...]nglish harted man. For in [...]eede, as I am informed, you are of the Dutch race your selfe, and so appear [...]th by your vaine, and curious hed; salling frō one error to another, as those countrymen are apt vnto.

[...]f the bo [...]k [...]s had remained in dutch our quiet Country should neuer haue [...]in troubled with this new familye, to the griefe o [...] God his childrē, whi [...]h bewaile y^• state, that you haue brought many vnto at this day: veye well as­sured, that although ye lurke in cor­ners, and send fourth your Libels, [Page] you cannot escape his handes, who se­eth euery corner of our hartes. And as HN. by slight, would not abide the triall of his matter, euen so doe ye follow the same course, & sayle rightly by his compas: for stand to your doc­trine, nor come to conference you dare not: but priuily insinuat your doctrine, where your wordes are taken for O­racles.

The Magestrates would gladly that you should geue a reason, more agreable to truth, of your dealinges, and doctrine: as for HN. where he be­came, or where he is, they little passe: and whe [...]e you say, that to me the trueth is vnknowen, it may be as you say: neither will I trouble my selfe much therein: but that you of his Fa­milye might imbrace trueth is my chiefe purpose: which cannot be in my opinion: holding your selues captiue to the illusions of HN.

Vitell.

FVrthermore you say that he doth cal himselfe, Restorer of al things 14 [Page] whereunto I aunswere, that there is no su [...]h word written by him, and yet hath th [...] Lord accomplished ac­cording to his promises through the [...]piri [...] of Christ, in him, all that he hath spoken through the mouth of his seruaunt [...]s, the Prophets: more where you say that HN. cannot erre or mi [...]e the right &c. I know not how hee, or any one should erre, whi [...]h [...] is indewed with the holy Ghost, & led by the spi [...]ite of Christ, which leadeth into all trueth.

Aunswere.

19 THat he doth so call himselfe: I haue written therein, as I [...]inde it collected by the commissioners, who delt specially in that matter: but you affirme as much, or more of him, then I charged him with. For you say that the Lorde [...]ath accomplished through the spirite of Christ in him, all that he hath spoaken through the mouth of his Prophetes: and this we thinke to be very straingely auouched of you, [Page] contrary to trueth: the Prophecyes of such whome the Lord raysed vp to cō ­fort the weake estate of his Church, in the tyme of the law, were fulfilled in their seasons, especially such pro­phesyes, as either touched the capti­uitye of the Iewes, or the destructi­on of their Citie: also many of their prophesies concerned the comming of our merciful Messias, the maner of his byrth, passion, death, and resurrection. Now, to affirme that all these are ful­filled in [...]. is very hor [...]ble, and mō ­strous: but such is your vanitye, that so you may extoll the dignitye of your Aucthor, you care not what vntruthes ioyned with blasphemye you vtter: the lyke speach HN. auoucheth of him­selfe, saying, what God hath spoken [...]hrough h [...]s holy Prophets, Proph [...] & what is written of Ch [...]ist, should also in vs, and with vs be [...]ome f [...]l [...]illed &c.

[...]ow you are able by any shaddow of trueth, to proue an [...] of these two sayinges true, it had bin requisite, that you should a shewed: for they carry [Page] great absurdityes, both in trueth, and reason: Whether doe you lift vp your Aucthor, by such vntrue speaches? it doth appeare very lamentable, to all God his children: this is proude bo­sting, and exaltation, such as S. Paule did warne the Church, to take heede of such.

I doe much maruell that Christian men, with any face can write thus presumpteouslye of mortall man, al­though you would qualisye your say­ing, that this is brought to passe, by the spirite of Christ in him: but this helpeth not, neither doth it stand with the will of God reueled: that any mor­tall creature should be so exalted.

For if we should demaund of you, how we shall know this to be true: then you aunswere, by his workes, which I thinke you meane his bookes: Yf otherwise you meane, some mira­culous dealing which you are priuy of and not knowen: it were necessary for his credit, and your honesty not to hide it any longer: but simply to manifest the same.

[Page]Moreouer you say, that none can erre which are indued with the holy ghost &c. We know that the spirite leadeth into al trueth: yet those vessels hauing by grace such priuiledge: doe often, in shew, and countenaunce ap­peare as though the spirite were quē ­ [...]hed, or as fire raked vp in ashes: ex­ample here of Peter, who hauing the spirite of God,Gal. 2.11. yet did thing [...]s contrary to trueth, and therefore was rebu­ked by Paule, and that worthely: ma­ny in Christ his Church, no dout haue bin guided by the spirite of God, and yet sometymes haue shewed thēselues humane creatures: as wanting that excellent priuiledge appropriate to Christ, which sayd, I am trueth: such is our condition, (we may not reach higher,) not to erre is a speciall title belonging to Christ our Lord: and not to mortall man, although lightened with the spirite: we must rest contēt with such honor as it plea­seth him to graunt, who is Lord of his creatures, and not to reach so high, [Page] as presumpteously to chalenge a title, and dignity, farre aboue our capacitye and not agreing with our frayle condi­tion, and nature. But such is our va­nitye not guided by the spirite of God to aduaunce our state, and calling a­boue our degree, and condition, by the setting on of our enemy Sathan.

Vitell.

20 NOw I doe maruell, why you be so enuious agaynst that name HN. wil you not permit the Lord to geue names to his ministers, accor­ding to the worke that he will ac­complish by them? or doe you think that the names are geuē to the out­ward creature? then are you much deceiued. No my beloued, the ser­uauntes of the Lord, are children of Loue: ascribe no names of holynes as dew to the outward person. For they know, that they are but fraile ea [...]then vessels, & beare their names according to their vertues whiche God hath geuen them, and submit [Page] them humbly, and obediently as ser­viceable instrum [...]ts to serue the lord & their nei [...]hbour: therfore I would councell you, to looke i [...]to your selues, & marke what [...] good thinking spirites rule [...], where­through ye blaspeme, di [...]pi [...]e, & dis­honor the t [...]ple, or taberna [...]l [...] of the Lord.

Answere.

AGaynst the two letters of HN. I am not enuyous, only against such doctrine as he doth teach contrary to the scripture, whereby you as an I­pocrite, haue seduced the people, and led thē into error, and corrupt wayes: to hinder the Lord of his purpose it re­steth not in mortal man. If HN. be a name signifiyng some office, why hath neither he nor you manifested y^• same? but plead ignorance, that it signifieth some h [...]e misterye which you nor we know not, now as HN. is a name geuē by the Lord, as you affirme, according to the worke that he will establish by him: so doth his fellow Elder [...]idelitas [Page] looke for lyke credit, whose wordes I will repeate, as they be written in his booke called, A dist [...]nci [...]e declaration of the requiring of the Lord &c.

In the First chap. 1 [...]. se [...]ion, [...]e hath these wordes following: but fire, or bend alwayes, all your sight o [...] me Fidelitas, and consider how that the Lord hath chosē me, euen frō my very byrth, out of my Mothers wombe, to the obedience of the requiring of his word: For that I with you, and yee also with me, according to the requi­ring of the testimonyes of his graci­ous word, should become vnited there­in, and so to growe of one vniforme being, with ech other in the same. &c.

You shew vs in the 29. sexion, that through HN. his priestes office, the Lord will receaue all men in mercy: but for Fidelitas office, as yet we know not what it is, and in deede there were neuer any, that would challenge such names, as these elders doe: & affirme that they signifie their office, and cal­ling: certayne players vpon stages [Page] would declare th [...]r names, represen­tin [...] c [...]rt [...]ine [...]e [...]ue [...] to se [...] out their matters, som [...] w [...]e call [...]d tru [...]th, some hope, some [...]aithfulnesse: but in sadnes, to set [...]owne such names to si [...] ­ni [...]e [...] which th [...] Lord as y [...]u af­firme, will accomplish by them: is meere imp [...]etie.

But where the Lord geueth names, it appeareth by their calling, and such a [...]e their workes, and sayinges, as ge­ [...]eth testimony s [...]fficient to their vo­cation. [...]ut [...]our HN. c [...]n shew no sufficient markes, wherby any, but se­duced perso [...]s, should geue credite to his wordes: onely a pa [...]nted shew, and barren heaping vp of wo [...]des, darkly appli [...]d without conclusion, or sence, sauing you, and such l [...]ke, that finde great mister [...]es in his sentences, carying such credit among you, as is not seeming Christians The Lord gaue names to sundry vnder the law: as Isaack, Sampson, Iohn [...]aptist, &c. But doth it follow, that HN. is a name, geuen by the Lord. Proue vnto [Page] vs, that the Lord hath established his name: your friuolous cauill, that HN. signifieth [...], will not serue: such bables are scarce suffici [...] ̄t to me [...]k children: therefore you must deuise some better [...].

Some of your Familye haue writ­ten, that HN. signifie [...]h some greater matter then either you▪ or wee can tell of: such incertentyes ho [...] you au [...]uch of your HN. For vncertayne doctrine must haue certayne [...]idden misteryes to amase the heares mindes: or els no doubt▪ the drift of do [...] me would ease­ly be espied. Therefore you must de­ [...]ise some hidden s [...]retes, whereby to cary a shew of prof [...]d m [...]tter.

That names are geuen by men in these dayes and not by God, there is no doubt or question, but you would sayne haue HN. to be a name geuen of God to signifie a calling, you geue vs no reas [...]n so to thinke, but woulde haue vs beleue it is so, because you say so, then were we vayn heads, and vn­c [...]nstant mindes. For we depende so [Page] stricktly vpon the scr [...]ptures of God, that no spirite, no [...], nor no Angel teaching other [...], can be a co [...] ­ted, or beleued amongst vs, so ce [...]tayn is our faith, and so inuincible is that truth, which by the Scriptures we held.

In that you, t [...]e Children of y^• loue ascribe no names of holynes vnto the outward person, it is a mistery we a [...]e ignorant of: we simply geue names to our children in baptisme, without signification of holynes touching the In [...]ant, the names may signifie holy­nes, but that the person carrying the same name shall be indewed therwith that are we ignorant of. If you haue such hidden misteries among you, it were good the world should not be ig­norant of it. We commit the successe and euent of such hidden secrets to the Lord. Of enuyous good thinking spi­rites that rule in vs, you councel vs to looke to, without your councell (God willing) we meane to follow the coun­cel of the Lord our God, which willeth [Page] vs not to beleue euery spirite,Iohn. 4.1. &c. And yet I neuer heard before of enuyous good thinking spirits. But such a grace you haue, not only to forge new doc­trine, but new names of Spirits also.

In speaking against HN. you wold insinuate that we blaspheme, despise, and dishono [...] the temple or tabernacle of the Lord. Doth it follow necessari­ly that they that speake against HN. blaspheme, despise &c. And is he the temple or tabernacle of the Lord? vn­doubtedly we are all deceaued then: For I assure you, we take him to be an erroneous spirit, a fantastical hed, possessed with pride of minde: Sathan blowing the belowes. The Lord wor­king therby the exercise of his church. If you haue other opiniō of HN. war­rant, or groūd so to do, haue you none. But be [...]ause you will not be [...]eeue the truth,2. Thes. 2.1: therefore are strong illusions sent, whereby you might be deceaued. Looke into the holy Scriptures with a more single minde, and it shall be easi­ly perceiued.

Vitell.

MOr [...]ouer you say that the illu­minat 21 [...]lders sin not, I would you knew what you say, forth you should vnderstand that they do lord and preuaile with God and C [...]ist, o­uer the sinne, and haue no pleasure to commit sinne, therfore they teach men the godly obedience, whereby they might be frends with God, but they that haue pleasure in sinne, are the seruants of [...]inne, and are enemies to the Lord.

Answere.

I Haue sayd that the illuminate El­ders in the Family sinne not, you 21 deny it not, but wish y^• I knew what I sayd: you say that they preuayl with God ouer sinne. But we deny that a­ny preuayle with God ouer sin, other­wise then in the person of Christ.

And herein you teach false doc [...]rine to the people. For your wordes are false, that we preuaile with God and Christ ouer sinne. Nay, we affirme [Page] that we preuaile with God by Christ, which accepteth vs for his sake, and although you acknowledge neuer so much that this is brought to passe by Christ, in vs, yet we tell you playne, that it standeth not with his good will and pleasure so to do: but that conty­nually we should be petitioners to him for grace to keep vnder sinne that sinne raigne not in vs, that sinne beare not rule in vs,Rom. 6.12. & 24. or haue dominion ouer vs, as the Scriptures vse to sp [...]ake: but that we preuayle against sinne, so that we extinguish it in our own persons. It is a doctrine of Sathan, and not frō the Lord. In this and the like doctrine doth your Author and you shew a ma­nifest p [...]oofe whence your errors are suckt, euen from the Pope, who tea­cheth that we may fulfill the law. If it be so, then may we be righteous by it, and haue no neede of Christ. Such hereticall and imptous doctrine con­trary to the scriptures you teach, and therfore your Author and you worthe­ly despysed.

[Page]The Pope in his doctrine of Opera super [...] [...], and you with your do­ctrine of perfection to be wrought in vs in this life, do so extenuat the death and passion of our Lord and Sauyour Christ, that the poore oppressed, & bur­thened sinner, loaden and [...]roning vn­der the burthen of sinne, can finde smal comfort. Therfore the church of christ grounded vpon the Prophetes and A­postles, Christ Iesus being the chiefe corner stone of this foundation,1. Cor. 3.11. doubt not in truth and humilitie of spirite to acknowledge still i [...] vs while we are in this life a battaile or combat against sinne, to striue, to fight, but not to con­quere, to tryumph, or to preuayle, but by faith in Christ, in whose person we conquere, we tryumph, and we pre­uayle. So that to be ouercome, or be subdued vnder sin we cannot, because we haue a valiant and most victorious conqueror, who still imputeth his con­quest and victory ours, yet so as sinne and the motions therof still remayn in [...]s, to our great exercise, that feeling [Page] our w [...]knes, our want, and our need, we [...]ight in our necessitye, haue re­c [...]se vnto our Captayn, our Sauy­our and delyuerer.

But that we in our persons, should p [...]euayle [...] sinne as you affir­med: is false, wicked, and damnable doctrine: but such fauour hath falsed with you that you greedely embrace this, as though Christ or his Apostles had taught it, whereas it is against all the doctrine of Christ and his Apo­stles and against all examples in the scriptures,Psal. 130. David sayth [...]. S. Paul sayth. Christ Iesus came into y^• world to saue sinners of y^• which number I am the greatest, [...]. Tim. 1.15. if doing our best we must acknowledge our selues vnprofitable seruauntes:Luke. 17.10. where is be­come your doctrine of perfection, ne­uer heard of in Christ his Church: our [...]umayne state and condition is so lif­ted vp and stast with pride by your do­ctrine of perfection that penitent sin­ners find smal grace in whom you im­pute [Page] scarce hope of saluation, except they attayne the perfection, on whome shall Christ hys death take place? & to whome shal the vertue thereof extend, if none shalbe saued but such as be per­fect in whome no sinne resteth or re­mayneth? you take away all comfort from sinners to whome the Gospell belongeth: and our onely comfort in distresse, the effect wherof by this your doctrine is denied: miserably do you herein deceaue your setu [...]s and other.

They that haue pleasure in sinn [...] are seruaunts to sinne, as you affirme, but to haue pleasure in sinne that sinn raygne in vs, or haue dominion ouer vs continually we affirme that they are marke [...] and tokens not of the chil­dren of good but contrary: yet we doubt not to [...]irme the remnants the moti­ons lust [...] and rōcupiscence incident to our frayle nature still to lurke in our bodyes notwithstanding we be in the fauour with God and made righteous by Christ his death and passion: for so it standeth with his good wil and plea­sure: [Page] that his grace should be made perfect through our weaknes.Cor. 2. cha. 12. v. 9. There­fore you with your doctrine of perfec­tion, doe extenuate his death as much as in you lyeth. We are not in hum­bling our selues, enemies vnto y^• lord, but you by exalting your selues, except ye repent, will be taken enemies both to God and all good men.

Your schollers in the Family doe blame vs in their wrytings, & affirme that we in confessing our imperfecti­ons▪ and sinnes which contynually doe assault vs dayly and hourely, We are (as they say▪) Aduocates for sinue, and you, teaching a perfection, are mainte­ners of righteousnes: but more truely may it be sayd of you, that you with your perfection are enemies to y^• grace of God manifest to vs by Christ Iesu [...] our Lord: and do thereby blaspheme (as much as in you lyeth) the glory of hys passion and death appropriate on­ly to sinners: you may with the phara­sies brag of your perfection and obser­uation of the law, but we comfort ourselues [Page] with these and the lyke sayings of holy Scripture:Tim. 1. ch [...]. Iohn. 3.16. Christ Iesus came into the world to saue sinners: So God loued the world that he gaue his onely begottē sonne &c: Behold the lambe of God which taketh away the sinnes of the world &c.

Vitell.

FArther you say, they may ioyne 22 with any congregatiō or Church and liue vnder the obedience of any Maiestr [...]te. It is true, we are obedi­ent vnto all Maiestrates where wee dwell, for [...]he peaces cause, and ob­serue their politick ordinances, which are to a good protectiō of their sub­iectes, [...]d the land, but we consent not vnto any thing which is agaynst God or hys commaundements: also we accomp [...] none vngodly but such a [...] obsti [...]atly blaspheme the Lord & hys ordi [...]unces, and despise his most holy seruice of loue, although they be ignoraunt of the waye vnto lyfe, For we confesse that there is no man [Page] righteousnes vntill the Lord deliuer hym from his vnrighteousnesse, and through hys Christ make hym righ­teous: and then may he say that the Lord is hys righteousnes.

Aunswere.

THat you may ioyne w^t any Church &c. I did affirme, beyng led by ma­ny reasons so to do, for you perswaded many in Queene Maries raigne to go to Masse: your brethren in Flaunders which are of your Family do the lyke, you also with vs come to Church and ioyne w^t vs in praier in [...]euing thanks in he [...]ring the worde preached &c. Yet hau [...] you priuate conu [...]ntickles and meetings forbidden by the law, wherin you shewe (not your obedience to the Maiestrates a [...] you affirme) but your wilfull stubburnes and frowardnes: you ioyne with all, to wyne all: but more iustly you flatter with all, to de­ceaue all.

How do you obserue the politik or­dinaunce of the Maiestrate, in prin­ting [Page] your bookes and publishing them to the Queenes subiectes contrary to the law made in that behalf? your obe­dience c [...]nsisteth in wordes but not in [...]: [...]h [...]refore with more truth you might saye (we will not be obedient to Mai [...]strates.)

In that you cōdescend [...]o [...] i [...] anye thing contrary to God &c. Therin you say well, but I would you were found herein true of your promise, for then your HN. and hys doctrine with hys prophesies should not haue such credit amōg you as appeareth, if his doctrine be not directly agaynst the Lorde our God and hys commaundementes: I apeale vnto the iudgement of all God his Children, that shall reade these conferences.

You accompt none vngodly but such as blaspheme the Lord, and despise his most holy seruice of loue.

Whome you accompt blasphemers before is declared: i [...] any speake a­agaynst your HN. or your Family of loue: Ipso fa [...]to he is a blasphemer: [Page] then all the worlde which doe despise your Familye are blasphemers, your conclusion must needes fall out euen so: whereby appeareth what reuerent opinion you haue of any and of al that are not of your Family: if you lear­ned this of HN. consider better of it for very shame of y^• world [...] if no reuerēce, nor feare of God can moue you.

You confesse that there is no man righteous, vntill the Lord deliuer him frō hys vnrighteousnes, but howe we are deliuered you & wee greatly vary: we according vnto the holy Scripture do acknowledge Christ to be our righ­teousnes which he hath wrought per­fectly in him selse which by fayth wee apply to our vnrighteousnes, hys obe­diēce, his loue, his pacience &c. we by fayth apply to our disobedience, to our hatred, to our impacience &c. all what was in Christ is made ours by grace, yet still wee in our earthen vessels are co [...]rupt sin [...]ull and v [...]yde o [...] anye suche vertues as the law requireth.

But [...]ou on the contrarye affirme that by Christ working in vs by hys [Page] spirite we are made righteous, and so clensed from our vnrighteousnes that we are chaunged into hys perfection: so that in all our actions, wordes, and thoughts nothing can [...]low o [...] p [...]oc [...]ede from vs, but suc [...]e as proc [...]ede [...]rom Christ, because we are guyded by the same spirite, but whether you or wee speake truth, let the holy Scriptures beare witnesse, then may be say that the Lord is his righteousnes, it is very true, but how and in what manner the Lord may be sayd, to be our righteous­nes, is to be vnderstoode: we acknow­ledge y^• hee in hys owne person, is our righteousnes and sanctificatiō: but you will haue hys righteousnes wrought in you by his spirtie, the difference cō ­sisteth in the ma [...]er: we acknowledge in him all strength all piety, all obedi­ence, and in our selues all weakenes all vngodlinesse, and all disobedience, but you will needes haue all in all to be in vs, whiche to much blemisheth hys glory and triumph: if we shoulde also in our persons triumph: our tri­umph [Page] standeth not in doing, but in be­leeuing in him which did. Therefore as you haue charged vs wrongfully to be aduocats for sinne, so may we right­ly call y [...]u Patrons: for our corrupt, rotten, and earthen vessels.

Vitell.

23 MOre you are offended at the confession of the Familye of Loue: vnderstand the matter well: that there is no man cōpelled there­vnto: but if any one be wounded, or trobled in his cōscience: then he may to his cōfort, make his euel thoughts or els what, manifest vnto a priest, or Elder, a [...]cording vnto the counsell of the holy scripture. Also I thinke it is an ordinaūce in the Church of Eng­land: that if any one be troubled in minde, he shall come and aske coun­sell of the person, or minister, and I thinke he must then make manifest his thoughtes &c. And the Catho­li [...]k Religiō holdeth thought, word, and deede: but there are many, that [Page] will compell men to de [...]lare their thoughts▪ whi [...]h [...] n [...]ther p [...]iestes, nor Ministers of the [...]ord.

Aunswere.

TOuching your cōfessiō which [...]ou 23 acknowledge to be voluntary, and not coa [...]ted. I haue signified my dislyking your Au [...]thor HN. do [...]h say it is expedient, that they of his Fami­lye make mani [...]est, all that hath bin cōmitted: (both what it is,) & where­vnto our nature draweth vs vnto: here it apppeareth▪ if you follow your Au­thor directly, he leueth the matter not so voluntary, as of necessitye. And this must be done as you say, vnto a p [...]iest, or Elder: to please the Papitles I thinke you haue added this worde priest: but we tell you, that such man­ner of confession the scriptures allow not of: if any be wounded in consciēce he may to his comfort, repayre to any godly, or learned preacher, [...]o shew his griefe, and to receaue counsell, and comfort to his consolation by the scrip­ture, [Page] agaynst the prick of conscience, or the law which troubleth many mīs mindes: but that of necessitye he must make manifest all thoughts, all what our nature doth incline vnto, there is no warrant what ordinaunce is in the Church of England, you haue not shewed: but that he must of necessitye make manifest his thoughts, it is vn­true: it is left fr [...]: onely by way of perswasion, men are moued to repaire in such extremitye: to their learned and godly pastors, and by no ordi­naunce: but this appeareth, that you accompt not your selfe as any member of this Church of England: no mar­uell: for you holde it more safe, to pro­fesse HN. his Familye, then to be an obedient child of Christ his Church: Whereof England is a speciall part.

What the Catholick religion hol­deth touching confession, is no cloke to shaddow your dealinges with all: for we tell both you, and them, that such a confession, as both you, and they hold, is not agr [...]eing with trueth. The [Page] Papistes vrge men, and accompt them heretickes that deny it: and you hold it as an expedient thinge: neither haue you both, any warrant so to doe.

Some doe compell men to declare their thoughtes, which are neither priestes, nor ministers, as you affirme who they are, you tell vs not: yet I suppose you meane the cōmissioners, who [...]xamining your Familye, tou­ching their fayth and doctrine: found them so suttle by your instructiōs, that in y^• end they required thē, to declare their knowledge, what they thought of their Author HN. and I thinke the Magistrate authorised by the Prince may in such cases require vs to mani­ [...]est: what opinion we haue of any Au­thor, or what we thinke of him: but you haue taught them to say, (we know him not,) and therefore, to com­mend him, or discommend him, wee may not: such sleightes you deuise, whē the Magistrats requireth a trueth at your handes, and here is also decla­red, your obediēce to rulers: your El­ders [Page] are safe, when the poore country people, are brought before the Magi­strates: but when will any of you the [...]lders, come voluntarily, and defend your doctrine, and proue it good by soūd argumēt? it is not enough to se [...]d out your Libel [...] without name, and [...]ide your selu [...] [...], and say our ri­ [...]orous de [...]ling is t [...] cause thereof? Truel [...] i [...] you would appo [...]nt tyme, and place, and meete accordingly, I burst vndertake to be bound, that you should, both come, & goe safely: where conferēce might bring trueth to light, if you looke for trueth, and require to be satis [...]d: for this wrangling, is not so consonant to Christiā pietye▪ truth▪ and playne dealing is [...]est, and none that euer held trueth, but was desi­rous of conference: i [...] you refuse it, and mutter still among your selues, when shall trueth appeare where it is? For the loue of God examine these things, and take better aduise.

Vitel.

YOu say moreouer, that we af­firme that the lawe of God may be kept, it is true, we doe so affirme, that they whi [...]h loue God, will keepe his commaundementes: [...]or so sayth Christ, he that loueth me, will keepe my commaundementes: but he that loueth me not, will not keepe them.

Aunswere.

THen all is not false y^• I haue col­lected 24 of you, as some of your Fa­milye haue written: that the law is possible to be kept, you deny not: but why you affirme it, you yeald small reason: only Christ sayth: If you keepe my commaundementes &c. Touching this matter of the possibilitye of the law, I haue aunswered your schollers to their seuerall Epistles sent to me.

Yet further consider, what [...] na­ture of the law is: The [...] lawe causeth wrath: Rom. 4, v. 15. The law hath do­minion ouer man, as long as he liueth. [Page] R [...]m. [...]. v. [...]. I know not sinne but by the [...]. Actes 15. chap. 10. ver▪ Why tempt you God, to ley a yoke on the disciples neckes, which neither our fathers, nor we are able to beare? marke therefore what is the nature of the law: It causeth wrath, it hath do­minion ouer vs, while we liue: it brin­geth vs to the knowledge of sinne, a yoke importable: now compare this with our frayle state and condition, how by the law the Lord hath made our sinnes knowē as appeareth Rom. 11.32, For God hath shut vp all in vn­belie [...] that he might haue mercy on all. also Gala. 3.22. But the scripture hath concluded all vnder sinne: that the pro­mise by the f [...]ith of Iesus Christ shoulde be geuen to them that beleue:

If by this doctrine we b [...] concluded and shut vp all vnder sinne: then it ar­gueth a playne impossibilitye to keepe the law. If there were in vs any pos­sibilitye to fulfill the lawe: thē Chri [...] our Lord dyed in vaine, for he fulfilled (the same for vs:) neither was there [Page] any meane found, in heauen, or earth, to pacify the wrath of God, and satis­fy y^• law: but the death of that imma­culate Lambe, Christ Iesus. For Christ was apoynted to fulfill the law for vs, before there was a law geuen: for if by our infirmitye, the strength of Christ is made per [...]te, Cor. 2. chap. 12. vers. 9. So contrary, if we affirme in vs strength to fulfill the law: then is his death extenuat [...], and made o [...] none effect. It is no derogatiō to God, that such a law is geuen vs, which we cannot keepe: but thereby his great mercy and loue towards vs is shewed in sauing vs, and delyuering vs from the danger therof by Christ Iesus ou [...] Lord.

We reiect not the law, but in reu [...] rence imbrace it, as a scholemaster to sée our imperfections, and send vs to Christ, such is the nature of the law, & such is our weakenes in performing the same: neuer was there any that did it, only [...]achary & [...]lysabeth are sayd to walke in all the commaunde­ments [Page] [...]ut how far? sine querela co­ [...]m [...]: without reproose before men. But i [...] the Lord should haue en­tered in [...]o iudgement agaynst them, by the dexterity of his law▪ then must they need [...] haue sayd, to vs is nothing due but confusion and shame, to thee be honor and glory for euer.

Now you s [...]e how the law is fulfil­led, and sati [...]fied in the person of Christ no [...] in our persons, but meerely by him so that in Christ, and by Christ, haue we fulfilled the law: because his righ­teousnes is made ours by grace, which we take hold on through faith.

All those places of holy scripture, which commaund the obseruation of the law, do therin set before vs marks to leuell at: so that we must studye to come as neare them in our life, as our mortall state and frayle condition will permit: You deceue your selues mightely, when by illusion of Sathan, you acknowledge that you keep the law in euery condition as it requireth, except ye admit that distinctiō the Libertines [Page] doe, which affirme nothing to be sinne except we make a conscience thereof before it be committed. Much more might be sayd by men of better skill, if you require to be satisfied.

Vitell.

FVrthermore you say, that we af­firme 25 HN. to be the true Prophet of God, sent to blow the last trump [...] of doctrine which shalbe blowē vp­on the earth. Marke wh [...]t▪ his works testifie of him, and euen so is he, whe­ther it be beleued or no [...]. But he say­eth not that no man knoweth the true sen [...]e of the scripture but he, but this I say, if any man know the truth he cānot condemn HN. nor his pro­phesie, but much more imbrace it.

Answere.

THat HN. was a Prophet you de­nied 25 not before, now you affirme the same, but you giue vs a caueat that he is the same that his workes testifie of him what you meane by his works [Page] I know not, excepte you meane hys bookes, which testifie him to be a decei­uer, [...]d an erroneous spirit: he, sedu­c [...]d by Sathan, and you by him.

But if you meane by wo [...]kes some miraculous matter, muttered of you in secret corners, thē we tell you plain [...]hat neither his bookes, nor his works can cleare him of false prophesies, and wicked doctrine which you teach the people, as appeareth.

You say if any man know y^• truth, he cannot condemne HN. nor his pro­phesie, but much more imbrace it. If you could make this to be beléeued, it were somwhat, but who will credite your saying; being so often takē tardy? There be many in the worlde which know the truth vndoutedly, which ne­uer heard of HN. nor any doctrine of his▪ your saying is very monstrous, many are with the Lord that haue ge­uen their liues for the truth, and yet neuer knew HN. nor heard of him, if none know the truth but such as im­brace [...]N. and his doctrine, then wa [...] [Page] trueth hidden before he came into the world, or writ his bookes: such a gift you haue to auouch a manifest vn­trueth, where all godly Christianes can say the contrary: Yet to mayn­tayne him in his vaine prophesying▪ you let not to ty trueth to his girdle, so that none that knowes trueth, can condemne HN. So inuinsible a Pa­trone you haue, with long seeking, gotten at last.

I doe verely thinke, for all your great bragge, that HN. will be an o­dious name, in the mouthes of god hi [...] children, through all England: now he beginneth to be knowen, and by the great credit, and admiration you haue him in, the more detestable will he be reputed: as a seducer of such men as cannot content themselues wi [...]h such trueth, as the scriptures containe: but must haue a Prophét, raysed vp out of Flaūders, a banished man, and one that dare not shew his face in any countrey openly: and you had rather imbrace his noueltyes: then the whol­some [Page] doctrine, conteyned in the olde, and new testament.

Vitell.

26 NOw concerning his bookes, they be of such Aucthoritye, as he affirmeth them: but where as you say, that he sayth all is false, and lyes whatsoeuer is taught &c. marke wel. what he writeth, and adde nothing thereto, and it shall be found true what he writeth: more where as you say, he commendeth the Pope and Cardenalls, with the Masse, and o­ther ceremonyes, there is none com­mended, but in their right order, if you marke the matter well.

Answere.

26 HIs bookes I affirmed, that they were in cr [...]dite amongest the fa­milye, of equall au [...]horitye with the scriptures: and that they were writ­ten with the same spirite: to this you aūswere, that they are of such auctho­ritye, as he hath affirmed: therefor [...] [Page] note well what you say: for neuer any since the Apostles tunes had so impu­dent a face, as openly to publish such a detestable lye: if this come not from the spirite of pride, I know no proud bosting spirites: all the Fathers in the primitiue Church, euer reuerenced the holy scripture, and submitted all their bookes thereunto.

Austen desired not to be credited, or beleued, but as his workes might a­gree with the holy scriptures: all men in generall haue euer acknowledged themselues in their writinges: to be subiect to error, onely the scripture, to be without blemish: but this man will haue HN. and his bookes of equall au­cthoritye with the scriptures, & writ­ten with the same spirite: thus doe you runne, from one impietye to an o­ther, and in the highest degree of blas­phemye. But I pray you looke vpon the matter better: before you say he is a prophet, now his bookes are of equal aucthoritye with the scripture: whe­ther will you lift vp your HN. aboue [Page] all condition of fraile man: the higher he is exalted, the more greuous will be his fall, without repentaunce: it is Luciferian pride, thus to attribute vnto mortall man: but you make HN, to be a name of office, and not of a cre­ature: such misteryes requireth fal­ced: where trueth, and simplicitye im­braceth playne dealing.

Now you say, that HN. doth a­uouch all to be false, whatsoeuer is taught by any other: therefore heare his owne wordes, and then discerne, and sée: God his trueth, and his godly and heauenly workes,Prophesi. Chapter. 13 verse. are vnknowen vnto all fleshe, and vnto all fleshly, and earthly men: but it is geuen to the children of the kingdome, the commi­naltye of the Loue, to vnderstand the secret misteryes thereof. You say it will be found true what he writeth: If none but the comminaltye, or Fa­milye of Loue doe vnderstād the scrip­ture: then it was not rightly vnder­stode, before there was any mention of your Familye.

[Page]Now for commendatiō of the Pope Cardinals, and Masse, he sayth, hee commendeth none, bu [...] in his right order: this speach is ambig [...]us, in his right order. For simply I thinke, none of them haue any shaddow of right or­der, neither is their callinges, nor doctrine grounded vpon, either right, or good order. Your Author belyke, al­loweth the Masse, or els he would not haue taken such paynes, as to expli­cat euery ceremonye therein: in his booke called A declaratiō of the Masse but thus with subtiltye of speach, you would faine say, somewhat to defend your Author, be his sayinges neuer so monstrous.

Vitell.

FOr in that booke, named, a ioy­full message of the kingdome of God, & Christ: though ye de [...]iding­ly call it his gospell, is declared, that [...]Papa signifieth an olde Father in the holy vnde [...]standing.

Now althogh he be not indued with the holy vnderstāding, yet is the name not the worse in it selfe. For the Lord [Page] hath ordeined gouernours, spirituall, and temporall: and they represent the maiestye of God: although now certayne gouernours, gouerne not according to the rule of righteousnes: yet is not therefore the name euer­theles [...]e of reputation because it is an ordenance of God: therefore let vs despise no name, that belongeth to gouernours, neither yet also any go­uernour, nor any man els: for we haue all sinned, & haue neede of the grace or mercy of the Lord.

Answere.

27 THe booke in lattin is called Euāgeli­um Regn [...], gospell of the kingdome: but this man is the translator thereof: and hath qualified it, calling it a ioy­full message of the kingdome: the title is arrogant, and presumptuous, & the doctrine therein worse, as will appere in print ere it be long: the pope hath found among man [...] enemies, one frēd: although his doctrine is spokē against euery where, yet this mā, would glad­ly [Page] képe, and retayne his bare name: belonging to a gouernour in office: we cōdeme not the name, his doctrine not agr [...]ing with the word, is by the same word condemned: & so is yours.

For significations of names▪ w [...]e will not contend a part of your deui­nity lyeth therein: neither do wee des­pise any name: but is euell doctrine be shadowed or vnder any name, cloked then wee inuey agaynst the doctrine, vsing the name: as whē inuectiues are made agaynst the Pope, or HN. it is not ment of the persons but of the doc­trine. And surely the Pope did neuer exercise so great a Popedome, in the West Church, as your HN. (a new Pope) doth among you of his Fami­lye, and as the papistes, which tooth, and nayle, seeke to maintayne euery absurd, and senceles part of the popes doctrine, with all their power, witte, and skill: Euē so do ye of his Family maintayne your N [...]. and whatsoe­uer vnsauery doctrine he teacheth, it ma [...] not be discredited: nor he cannot [Page] therein erre, or misse the right: in such reputation, haue you placed mortall man.

You say we all haue sinned, & haue need of y^• grace or mercy of the Lord: y^• all haue sinned, you truely confes: but that all doe dayely sinne, you cannot beleue: especially, you the [...]ders of the holy vnderstandin [...]: but in humi­litye of spirite, you, and wee ought to cōfesse, not onely that we haue sinned: but dayely, and hourely do sinne: and haue neede, not onely of his grace, but his mercy also: although you speake of grace, or mercy: but wee craue his grace, and mercy: his grace to guide vs, and his mercy to deliuer vs.

Vitell.

MOreou [...]r, you are greatly of­fended, because hee sayeth that none shold take i [...] hād to teach or preach, but the illuminate elders, whi [...]h ar [...] Godded with God, or in­co [...]po [...]at [...]d to God, and with whom also, God in one being and power of [Page] his spirite, is hominisied, or become man. And those you call proud spea­ches, and because [...]N. vseth them, ye despise him, althoughe they be no strange words or speches in th [...] dut [...]h language▪ therfore in so doing, you despi [...]e the Lord.

Answere.

I Am offended in zeale of Gods [...] 29 agaynst your generall doctrine whe [...]of this is a part, that none may teach the truth but y^• illuminat [...]lders.

Your HN. further sayth: There­fore it is assuredly all false and lyes, [...] seducing and de [...]eitfull, what the vn­godded, or vnilluminate men out of the imagination or riches of theire own knowledge, & out [...]f their lear­nednes of the scriptures, b [...]ing forth, institute, pr [...]ach, and tea [...]h &c.

Now looke wel and behold whether HN. condemne not all others, but his illumined Elders, who are Godded with God &c. which in d [...]ede I haue rightly tearme [...] proud speaches, such as neuer any godly wryter in Christ [Page] his church durst euer speake or write. [...]ou would colour the wordes by the ducth tongue, saying they be not strāge speches in that language, but certain­ly a strange and monsterous doctrine is therby taught, and far disagreeing from the written word, and far [...]nbe­seeming any Christian.

And here if I should dilate what a meaning you haue in these wordes, Godded with God, I should increase this treatise ouer much: yet I will somewhat touch it, as you and your Author haue expressed it in wryting. I will vse your own speach as follow­eth. See and marke (my beloued, A [...] call [...]d m [...]nnes f [...]lling a­way. ) in the beginning when God had made all things well, th [...] was the Lord one Lord of his kingdome, and one God of his worke, and there was also no more but one God and one man, and they were one▪ and had in all one or­de [...], bein [...] ▪ [...]nd nature. For God was all that the man was, and the m [...] was all that God w [...].

Thus monstrously, and blasphe­mously [Page] you haue taught god and man to be one in nature: now compare this godhead with God or incorporated to God, and easily it is perceiued that you meane God and man to be one: this were worthye to be buryed in si­lence, but that now the patrons defēd such blasphemies, it is tyme to cleare the Church of Christ that such proude and Luciferian voyces shoulde not bee heard, or once named, & yet this man will proue that HN. cannot erre, and none that know the truth can condēne HN. It is a pitiful thing that men ha­uing anye sence or feeling of God or godlines, should so vaynely wryte: or publish to y^• world such absurd & hor­rible doctrine, neuer heard of before and yet the Aucthor must needes be a prophet, and his doctrine to proceede from the Lord: nowe in despising thys and the like proud speach of HN of ne­cessitie I am counted to despise y^• Lord thus still you drawe HN. & hys mat­ters that who so speaketh or wryteth agaynst hym be wryteth and speaketh [Page] agaynst God, whether will you exalt your Au [...]thor, ye vnbeleuers, surely, a­boue all that is called God, but wyth your father you will be cast headlong so low,Thess [...]. 2. ch [...]p. [...]. where to late you may bewa [...]l your contempt of God and godlinesse, looke in tyme to this and the like part of your doctrine oh ye Ipocrites.

Vitell.

29 FOr asmuch as the Lord hath seen it for good to bryng foorth hys most holy seruice of loue, in the duch language, although it seeme grosse and barbarous to you, so shall it from henceforth be counted a lan­guage amōg those languages wher­in the Lord hath erected his law and the priestes office thereof, and the seruice of the beliefe with hys priests office. Like maner shall the most ho­ly seruice of loue be brought foorth through the Lorde hys elected mini­ster HN. with his priests office, where through, the Lorde will receaue all men in mercy, whiche humble them [Page] vnto hys word of grace: according to the requiring of hys lawe and or­dinaunces, be erected and remayne from generation to generation for euermore, for loue peace, and righ­teousnesse shall remayne in eue [...]la­lastingnes.

Aunswere.

THe Dutch language must nowe be accounted amongst those learned 29 tongues wherein the law and gospell were written, and this he auoucheth the Lord hath seene it for good, that it shalbe euen so, you now take your au­thors office in hande. For you Pro­phesye, that from hencefourth, this shall come to pas, the law, the seruice of the beliefe, and the Priestes of­fice must be brought forth, in y^• Dutch Language.

I cannot but say (notwithstanding your false Prophesye:) that the Dutch Language you vse, especially in such straunge inuented wordes and confu­sed compositiō, is barbarous, sith that [Page] [...]rtayne other of your bookes, that haue learned to speake latine (a toung by nature & propriety plaine, copious and eloquent) are also new fangled in name, and barbarous in phrase, of purpose to be blasphemous in doctrine, which you nor any of your Family [...] haue as yet (as I thinke) translated: they want a certayn father, and there­fore haue no certayn names, but bor­rowed, as Theologica, Germanica, Augustinus, Elutherius, &c. Their new deuised latin wordes are such as Aegoitas, Ipsietas, &c. Their doctrine is that, Adam is nothing els but vetus homo, and Christus is nothing els but Nouus homo. The history of Christ his birth: hys miracles, passion, death re­surrection &c. they regard not, but al­legor is vppon euery part thereof most daungerously and vngodly, teaching [...] vncertayne significations without cō ­ [...]ort, making no accompt of the histo­ry. Confidently to beleue the truth of the history, (they say) is to abide in the letter which killeth.

[Page]Those bookes contayn [...] playne do­ctrine which the Libertynes hold, and also the doctrine of perfection whiche you hold to be in this life▪ but especial­ly this principle, that when this per­fection whiche you dreame of, is come to the man, then is he illuminate and deiffied, and God in him hominified, so that in all his actions, wordes, and thoughtes he can no more cōmit sinne or anye euill then God or Christ can commit sinne or euill: the reason is rendred because God or Christ dwel­leth in the man, and hath th [...] gouern­ment of all hys actions, thoughtes &c. And when ye are pressed in conference to shewe that man, thus hauing Christ dwelling in him, if he at any tyme doe bring foorth any euill that in resem­blaunce ma [...] appeare as sinnes, they are not so to be [...] accompted of say you, because Christ dwelleth in the man: which doctrine is wicked, false, and diuelish as I haue often tolde your fel­lowes in other places. Christ dwelleth in vs by the participation of his holye [Page] spirite, and guydeth our actions, els should wee haue no strength to resiste sathan, or flesh, nor the intisements of the world: but taketh not away there­by our humayne imperfections but he keepeth lustes and all wickednes that they raigne not ouer vs, or rule in vs, or haue dominion ouer vs, yet wee ceasse not to be sinners, or commit sinne, that is your owne doctrine, but hath no foundation or warrant in the worde.

Other bookes also are of such lyke name and doctrine, as Elidad and Fi­delitas, whereof I fear [...] me that you were the trāslator. The doctrin wher­of I meane not to touch in this place, onely this is to be noted, that the par­ties acknowledge themselues to be felow Elders with the Elder HN. and magnifie his office and calling abou [...] measure, and protest with great vehe­mency, that such wonderfull workes as are brought forth through the same HN. could not be wrought unles the Lord God were with him. And these [Page] strange names of their Elders do maruelously astonish our English people. Elidad, as I haue learned, is an He­bru [...] word, and signyfieth dilec [...]us Dei. the beloued of God, which is a pro­per title belonging to our Sauiour Christ. This is my beloued sonne &c. And that we generally are in him, and by him beloued there is no dout, so is be still the beloued. And that some of their Elders name themselues Fide­litas, so others that (belike) are not come to so high degree, name thēselue [...] Amatores Charitatis. It is a world to see how these men delite in such vayne shewes of piety, and thinke to get cre­dite by these coloured meanes, which to the godly seemeth ridiculous, and too too fond.

And thus much cōcerning the bokes in latin, by occasiō of the Dutch, wher­in note this (Christian Reader,) that wheras the Italian Pope would haue all in latin, this other Pope, and dutch Antichrist would haue all in Dutch, as a predestinate tongue to open his [Page] prophesies, and misteries of y^t Lord.

All the quotations of holy scripture that HN. vseth to proue that he is ry­sen from the dead to iudge the world, do proue in deede that Iesus Christ hath rysen from the dead, must they therfore auouch HN. his resurrection? See (good Reader) the presumptuous spirite of Sathan, so setled in these for [...]orne [...]dames▪ that through the eating of that forbidden fruite, wherethrough they would become as god, that is, de­i [...]ed, they are wholy become sathani­fied, or diuilyfied. Strange names I confesse, but very significant, & prope [...] for such strange Christians. Was not Christ Iesus mightely declared to be God by the resurrection from y^• dead? If this resurrection were the mighty­est declaration, or argument, & proofe, that Christ was God, iudge Christian Reader▪ if HN. maketh not himself not only God, but Christ, and so the pro­mised séede.

And in deede, you your selfe Vitell, haue affirmed him to be a Prophet be­fore, [Page] in thi [...] place you cal him a priest: geue him also the name of a king, and then is he Christ a new Messia [...], for by his resurrection, he maketh him selfe God. Such an Antich [...]ist [...] thinke, should neuer haue beene heard of, if that the Children of God had not beene warned in the gospell, that many false Christes should come into the world, and such dangerous day [...]s, that if it were possible, the elect of God should be deceaued. But blessed be God wh [...] euer is ready to preserue his electe by Christ, s [...] that perish in [...]ecoiuable waye [...] they shall not, such a care hath the Lord ouer his.

Now HN. and his [...]istes office shall appeare, where through the Lord will receaue all men. O impudent wret [...]hes, haue we not a deliuerer, euen the Lord Iesus? who doth not onely receaue vs, but continually pro­tect vs, and minister to vs all thinges, both heauenly, and earthly, which are expedient for vs: but will you blasphe­mously open your mouthes, that wee [Page] shall be receiued by the Priestes of­fice of your HN. No godly Christian can heare this without griefe: What [...]erogatiō is this to our merciful Lord, and Sauiour? that now a wretched man, possessed with a lamentable spi­rite, shall take vpon him his office, and calling, where through we shall be receaued. Oh manisef [...]st impietye: Oh exe [...]rable iniquitye, which no pa­tience can beare. Seing you publishe [...]uch doctrine, in writing with delibe­ration, what doctrine doe you te [...]ch in corners to your Family, where no mā [...]are open hi [...] mouth agaynst any blas­phemy that you doe vtter▪ In such cre­d [...] are you [...]ept, but wo worth y^• hed, that seekes to [...] the simple, with such horrible doctrine.

Your [...] [...]ayd, that I know not HN.: but as it was sayd to Se­rinthus the heretique: I know him to be the first begotten sonne of Sathā. But the Lord hath geuen his Church the spirite of trueth, to dire [...] them from all such v [...]yne boastes of iniqui­tye: So lykewise O Lord, geue thy ho­ly [Page] spirit to the simple, seduced in y^• Fa­milye▪ that they may behold the blas­phemyes, which their Elders, in wickednes doe teach: agaynst the son of God Christ Iesus.

Vitell.

FVrthermore, you write very vntru­ly 30 of HN. where you say, that no man be he neuer so learned, or god­ly, can vnderstand, or interpreat the scripture [...] for I am sure, there are no such wordes written by him: therfore I must needes say, they are lyes, and false iudgementes, with wrong inter­pretatiōs, almost all what you write of him, and of his workes: and euen so are most of your interpretation [...], which you alledge of Christ, and his Apostles doctrine. For if so be they (I meane HN. his bookes) might be perused of vnparciall Iudges: then your iudgement, would be found euen lyke their iudgement which cō ­demned Susanna: but the Lord ray­sed vp Daniell, which is the iudge­ment [Page] of God: and deliuered the giltles, vnto whome we commit our cause. For he will iudge vprightly, and reward euery one, according to his deedes.

Aunswe [...]e.

WHat HN. hath pronoūced of all 30 other mens vnderstāding of the scripture, I will here agayne set down that the reader may iudge, who is in the lye. Therefore it is assuredly all false, and lyes seducing, and deceit­full, what the vngodded, or vnil­luminated men: out of the ima­gination, or of their owne know­ledge, and out of the learnednes of the scriptures, bring forth, institute, preach, and teach: they preach in deede the let [...]er, and the imaginati­on of their knowledges but not the word of the liuing God. And in an o [...]her place [...]o diu [...] ▪ codem cap. [...] thē esteme themselues, so holy as they will, they are a false Christianitye, and Diuells sinagogue, or schole. &c. [Page] with many other places to lyke effect: so that HN. still teacheth his Familye that it is geuē to the Familye of Loue, to vnderstand the secretes thereof.

Now let the indifferēt reader iudge, whether HN. exempt not all, but him, and his, from the true vnderstanding of the scriptures: all men which are not godded, with God, he tearmeth (fleshly minded) and earthly in cogi­tations: and intreateth whole chap­ters of such men: he sayth: That a fleshly, and earthly man, out of his naturall, and scripture learned vnder­stāding, hath not any sight, or know­ledge at all, thereof he i [...] so vtterly voyd of the same, that he cannot vn­derstand the smallest title thereof: much lesse expound the same, accor­ding: to the trueth, to an other &c. So that it appeareth p [...]ayne: that nono but HN. and his illuminat Elders can vnderstand the sam [...] ▪ [...] [...]ccording to trueth.

You say, if HN. & his bookes, might be perused of vnpartiall Iudges, then [Page] should his case be found, as innocent, as Susanna. Those vnparcial Iudge [...] that you would haue, are you, and your fellow Elders in the Familye. For I doe truely affirme, that no god­ly, or learned man in all Christēdome will allow your HN. and his bookes, for true doctrine: you, for your part, haue trauelled the most part of this 10. yeares: and yet I cannot vnderstād of any godly, [...]r learned man that im­braceth your doctrine, onely some er­roneus spirites, whose heddes haue bin intox [...]ated with other horrible he­resies, doe ioyne with you, in these your wicked attempes: also certay [...] vnlearned country people, with whom by your sugred speaches, and fayre wordes, you haue not a little preuailed to the destructiō of their soules. If you would choose any godly, and learned men, to heare your reasons, and argu­mentes, th [...] matter might quietly be debated: you doe but in wordes make a shew, a [...] though you would stand to indifferent, and vnp [...]rciall iudge­ment: [Page] But when it commeth to try­all, you will be iudged, onely by your selues, which is the safest way to cloke your impietyes.

Vitel.

THerefore, consider what you 31 haue done: for I am sure you are not appoynted a iudge by the Lord: but Christ will come with his Saintes and iudge the world, and all nations with righteousnes, and he will send his Aungells for to kepe, and to ga­ther the corne together, and they shall bring the corne into the Barne: but the weedes shall be cast into the vnquen [...]hable fire: therefore iudge you nothing, before the Lord come: whilest you cannot as yet discerne the hearbes, from the weedes: nor the corne from the chaffe: for with the same iudgement that you iudge, shall you be iudged: in asmuch as you are guilty▪ in the same which you falsely iudge ouer others.

Aunswere.

31 I Am not appoynted a Iudge: but Christians must not be lyke Horse, and Moyle, that haue no vnderstan­ding: I onely admonish you, as is e­uery mās duty of such doctrine as you teach to the poore people, which is cor­rupt and therefore knowing the same I haue manifested it to the world: that your cause might sooner (if you be dis­posed) come to tryall: and that trueth might appeare where it is.

You further discourse of the second comming of Christ: I hope you meane it not otherwise: but in the resurrecti­on of all fle [...]. I writ this because HN. in the preface of his booke, called a good Instruction of the vpright sayth, the 2. division, sayth these wordes. For as much thei [...], as that now in this same newest day: the comming of Iesus Christ, as a Lord in his maiestye, from the right hand, of God his Father appear [...]th and becommeth manife­sted vnto [...] with full clearenes of his heau [...]nly illumination, [...]ccording to the scrip [...]e. &c.

[Page]Here HN. telleth, that Iesus Christ is come, and is manefest to you of his Familye: and that he is come from the right hand of God his father. Our fayth is, that he shall come from thēce in the end of the world: but HN. tel­leth his Familye, that he is come: therefore your wordes, and your Au­thors agree not: this is very suspitious doctrine, touching the resurrection: and this augmenteth more suspition, that one of your Family, being asked before many witnesses touching Chri­stes comming to iudgement, did aun­swere playne, that he was already come: meaning his second comming: I could name the partye, yet my hope is, that you teach not so heathnishly of our resurrection, and of Christ his glorious comming to Iudgement.

Vitell.

MOreouer you affirme in your 32 wrighting, that you, and all that are as your are, whome you [...]all God his children, doe feele your [Page] selues wounded with sin vnto death: but by grace geuen from aboue, that wholesome medecine Christe Iesus whose passion hath purged, whose bloud hath clēsed, whose death hath cured all your diseases and maladies &c. So you confesse you neede not a­ny more, for you are clensed and cu­red of al your diseases, wherefore do you then condemne HN. which doth teache none other doctrine, where through men shal come to lyfe euer­lasting but through the passiō, death, and bloud of Iesus Christ, but you are clensed as you say and therefore haue you no more neede of Christ nor of hys safemaking oyle of the godly saluation, for you affirme that ye are all cleane: and I would ye were clensed through Iesus Christ, for then coulde yee neither slaunder nor lye.

Aunswere.

32 I Haue sayd that all God his Chil­dren feele themselues wounded w^t [Page] [...]h [...] vnto death &c. the remedy I hau [...] also shewed as you haue set down, but your conclusion is false and cannot bee collected of my wordes: that I neede not anye more, because I am clense [...] and cured, for we need his prouidenc [...] still to protect vs, and his grace to de­fend vs in all our actions, for wee ar [...] stil subiect to [...]all into sinnes, not with­standing in the purpose of God we bee hys elect, and to our comfort do feele the Lorde worke in vs a hate of sinne which is a testimony to our conscience that we pertayne vnto the Lord Iesu [...] yet so as the dregges of sinne with the motions thereof lurke in our bodye [...] although you deny it: our battayle a­gainst [...]inne is continuall, and shal ne­uer haue end vntill our earthly taber­nacle shalbe turned to dust, contrar [...] to your doctrine of perfection: you ask [...] why I blame HN. whiche teacheth no other doctrine: I would be nor you did 32 not, but how contrary you speake vnto the truth, doth mani [...]estly appeare.

You charge me agayne vntruely [Page] that because we are clensed wee neede no more of Christ, (this woulde you haue) but our need [...] wee still acknow­ledge: our wantes we vtter, and yet doubt nothing of our deliuery from sin hell, and death: and although wee ac­knowledge this our redemption and forgeuenes of our sinnes, yet so as the remembraunce thereof, still worketh repentaunce in vs, and also wee often feele the law to presse vs, the iustice of God to terrefie vs, our cōscience to ac­cuse vs, in such trouble are often the children of God, but stil by grace giuen vs, through fayth wee acknowledge Christe Iesus who hath interposed himselfe betweene vs and the law, be­twene vs and the Iustice of God &c. with such conflictes doth the Lord still exercise hys Childrē, and so doth here­by schole vs that feeling our want or neede, and our miseries, we might flee to him for strēgth, for mercy, & for help but I doubt whether you in your Fa­mily w^t your presumtuous doctrine of perfectiō do féel any of these exercises [Page] the godly Christian is partaker of▪ Now you wishe, that I were clensed through Iesus Christ: for then coulde I neither slaunder, nor lye.

[...]oe here appeareth vnawares, that you, when you are clensed, can sinne no more: but for my owne part I acknowledge, and I doubt not, but verely beleue through Christ, that my sinnes by his death are clensed, and yet subiect, both to lye, and slaunder. Al­though I know not, neither is it yet manifest vnto me, that I haue wit­tingly, either belyed, or slaundered, either you, or your Aucthor, or malici­ously haue written any thing agaynst you, yet it may be that I haue bin in­formed otherwise, then trueth in some thinges: yet so, as hitherto vntouched of you, except we should take your bare word, agaynst many witnesses.

Vitell.

FVrther, you write of two men 33 which we [...]e before a worshipfull Iustice Anno 1561. which you affirm [Page] to be of the Fam. of loue, what they were, that is that, but of HN. his do­ctrine at that time they knew not, & also you affirme you knowe what, but seeing you will [...]eedes slaunder vs, we will in the patience of Christ beare th [...]t, and h [...]pe [...]pon the good­nes and mercifulnesse of the Lord, desiring him to geue you a better minde.

Aunswere.

33 TOuching two mē examyned before a worshipfull Iustice, I haue col­lected that they were of the Family of loue: you answere, the doctrine of HN. at that time they knew not, but this is certain, one of them is liuing, & know­eth you but to well, and is a wel­willer to your Family, and scoller of Allin, but what they were, you aun­swere that is that. Such suttle aun­sweres are fittest for men of your pro­fession, you know what they were it seemeth, and in deed they were of your hatching, although for further increase [Page] of knowledge▪ Allin their neare neigh­bor did more instructe them, and lead them forward into your error. Plain dealing would haue put men out of doute, seeing you know what they were. But since they haue bewrayed your doings▪ in secret you regard them not. For some of your Familye haue aunswered, that by compulcion, and threates, they made their confession, others say playne, they were not of our Family: you are ashamed of them now that they haue disclosed your se­cret conference.

You say I affirme, I know what: I thinke you meane touching your owne person, wherein I haue vttered you to be y^• onely man, y^• hath brought this wicked doctrine of HN. which lay hidden in the Dutch tongue, among our simple English people, to their e­uerlasting destruction, except the Lord in mercy open their eyes, that they may see into the wicked, & monstrous drift of your Author HN. and repent thē, and so turn vnto the Lord Iesus [Page] from whome they haue departed: fol­lowing a stranger, an enemy to Christ and his gospell, set vp by Sathan, who enuieth the prosperitye thereof. The Lord geue you hartes to vnderstand, and also geue euery one of you a bet­ter minde.

Vitell.

34 COncerning Christopher V [...]tell, of his a [...]t, or his small skill in learning, he knoweth it also, neither doth he make any boast of any thing that he [...]ā: for he knoweth, if he haue any go [...]d, whether it be godly, or ma [...]ly, that [...]t commeth f [...]om aboue for all go [...]d cōmeth from the Father of light, with [...]home there is no va­riablnes: [...]ei [...]her is he chaunged in­to da [...]kenes: but all what is neither g [...]dly, [...]o [...] man [...]y, that commeth out o [...] [...]he [...]l [...]sh of [...], or [...]l [...]shfly wise­don [...] [...] the [...] g [...]od thinking his [...], [...]hi [...]h bringeth [...], holy [...]s, a counter­fa [...]te ri [...]hteou [...]es: as also, many man­ner [Page] of religions, or chosen God serui­ces, sectes, or errors &c.

Aunswere.

TOuching this Christopher Clitel 34 in Latten Vit [...]lus, (or Vitulus:) I haue sayd he is a ioyner by occupati­on, a wauering minde, and vnconstāt, delighting in singularitys, & alwayes held hereticall opinions: almost this 36. yeares: wise men haue noted 3. e­uills, being once rooted in man, are sel­dome or neuer voyd of some spice of y^• same disease: that is Lunasy, Ieolou­sly, and heresye: and it so falleth out by this mans example: who in king Henryes raigne, was vnconstant, in king Cowardes raigne, a dissembler, and in Queenes Maryes raigne a playne Arryan, and now in this our Princes raigne, a chiefe teacher of the Familye of Loue: now he hosteth of nothing: surely there is no cause, but rather to sorrow, that many poore peo­ple, by you are deceiued, and abused: [Page] and their simplicitye caryed away, by your suttle speaches.

You say, what so is godly, or man­ly, that is from aboue: the phrase is somewhat difficult, I think you mean spirituall, and earthly.

But where you adde, what is nei­ther godly, nor manly, y^• cōmeth of the flesh of sinne &c. Here is a distinction more scholasticall, then meane wittes can attaine to: if by godly, and manly, you place manly, as contrary to godly, then is manly taken in the euill part, and so not from aboue, excepte you will haue euell thinges from aboue, which cannot be. The thirde distincti­on is ambiguous: for of our corrupt nature wee bring forth fleshly wis­dome, imaginations, &c. And here­vnto, are we by nature subiect: if the Lord by his grace, doe not guide vs, and lead vs, and deliuer vs, (yea and so deliuered, if he still doe not protect and gouerne vs, we shall be ready to fall agayne, and agayne: therefore we dayly craue at his handes, saying: de­liuer [Page] vs Lord, from such euels, as by our owne corrupt nature, we are sub­iect vnto.

Here are also 2. phrases I thought not good to let pas vntouched, the one the mans good thinking, and this is ta­ken in the Family in the euill parte. If his thought be good, it is from aboue why despise ye it? The other is, chosen God seruices. If it be a seruice of God, then you doe not well to place this phrase with sects and errors. But these men haue a delite to publishe strange Religion, and to set it forth with strange phrases also. For so they may speake like their Author, they care not how vnlike the holy scripture they write.

Vitell.

ANd all these come hereout, be­cause 35 the man will iudge the [...]orkes of the Lord with his naturall wisdome, or lernedenes. And he [...]out, namely, out of the wisedome of the flesh, sprang all Christopher Vitelles [Page] errors, but not out of any other mās councell or bookes.

Answere.

35 ALl errors, sectes, and coūterfaite righteousnes (as this man saith) come of this, that man will iudge the wor [...]es of the Lord with his naturall wisdome & lewdnes. Touching man, simply, which S. Paul calleth Amma­lis homo, the [...]leshly minded man, know­eth not the things that are of God, yet it is also affirmed that no man can say Abba, Father, without the spirite of God. This man would perswade that there is now some secret teaching frō God by reuelation, which is proper to this Family, and therein they haue a speciall gifte, they litle regard the or­dinary way and meane to attayne knowledge, and the true sence of the holy scripture.

It is not to be denyed, that almigh­ty God hath taught his children by his holy spirite, in reuelations extraorde­nary, but that now the sonne of God is [Page] come into the world, e [...]en the wisdom of the Father with an vncouered face, shall we now in this light looke to be taught by reuelations or inspiratiōs? he hath by his wisdome established an ordinarye way of teachinge in his church, wherunto we must stand ob [...] ­dyent, except we will deny his ordy­nance. Faith commeth by hearing of the word of God, If we haue faith, we shal not want other excellent vertues, she is neuer alone, but loue, chariti [...], humilitie, patience, &c. waite vpō her as handmaydes. Hath not the Deuill deluded many which only depende on reuelations? And you which brag of your Author, which is (as he saye [...]h) taught frō god his own mouth, & hath hard y^• soūd of his voice. Thus misera­bly are you car [...]ed away by illusiōs, & herin you deceiue your selues and ma­ny others. Out of the wisdome of the flesh sprange all Christopher Vitelles [...]rrors. Note I pray thee Reader, that this Libeller acknowledgeth to haue bin in him many errors, comprehen­ded [Page] in this word [...]all) and anon [...] thou shall finde him saying, he was in no error.

In deede the church of Christ hath felt to much expe [...]ence of your heret [...] ­call head, fraught full of heresies, so that if any newer deuice should by Sathan 36 be stirred vp, you are as apte an instrument to broach the same, as any that I know in England. From no o­ther mans bookes did this man sucke his errors? and were you in error thē? and by the same meanes, may you not still remayne in error? haue you any further priuiledge now then you had before? Of necessity you must sly vnto your perfection, that you cannot erre, nor sinne, there is no ether excuse to be had, here is a mistery. For you thinke it an absurde thing that your errors sp [...]ang from any other fountaine then the flesh of sinne. No bookes, no confe­rence, were meanes to bring you to this [...]rro [...]. Lo [...]ke well into your selfe, and you shall fi [...]de in [...]ou now more errors and he [...] esi [...]s then euer you held [Page] heretofore. [...]ou imagined your selfe cleansed, and your h [...]use swept, but now are s [...]uen morse spirites entered into you, as app [...]areth by your doctrin and you are become ten solde the child of destruction, more now th [...]n be [...]r [...]. And except you repent, your ende will be far worse then your beginning.

Vitell.

NEither [...]an I blame any man,36 for min [...] own sinnes were g [...]ea­ter and horrible [...] in my sight▪ then all other menne [...], for although I had [...]ed certayne bookes of sundry wryte [...]s: yet was I moued to sea [...]h [...]hether they were grounded vpon the Lo [...]ds promyses or no, and humbling my self [...] befo [...]e the Lo [...]d, a [...] desi [...]ous to doe his will, [...]o gaue he me to vnde [...] ­stand, that I knew nothing of all his waye [...], but the troble that I [...]as in, whereout the Lord delyue [...]ed me, [...]s not to be exp [...]ssed. And i [...] the Lo [...]d of his goodnes had not comf [...]rted me with his holy spi [...]ite, through hi [...] [Page] most holy seruice of his loue, broght forth through HN. his elected mini­ster, I should haue remained without hope of life.

Answere.

36 NOw commeth this Vitell to de­clare a tragedy of himself, which no man can ga [...]nsay, being a thing se­cret and vnknowen to the world. For our secret conflictes are troublesome I graunt, when our conscience shall pres vs with the greatenes of our sinnes, but whether it were so or no who can controll him? or els who will beleeue his own wordes, speaking so many things contrary to truth already? But I must certifie that this is a speciall point of practise in the Family, that when any in conference doe require how they could so easily leaue the cer­tainty of doctrine which once they ear­nestly imbraced, then shall you heare them tell you of marueilous conflicts, much trouble and veration of minde, and could neuer attaine to any quiet­nes, [Page] vntill by the doctrine of [...]. they found rest vnto their soules.

But may not this be an illusion of Sathan as otherwise, being rightly examined? for Sathan is so suttle, that if he may get possession of any setled mindes, who instructed in godlynes by the scriptures, resist his perswasi­ons, and so cōmeth to conslict of minde in such troubles▪ where Sathan▪ by the Lord his permission, preuayleth: then worketh he in his a certayne security or peace, and then they thinke all is well, when ind [...]de neuer in worse case then so captiued in Sathans ty­ranny.

Now this man, when he hath set abroad some of his troubles, you shall see how he was deliuered: by which we may gather what marke he shootes at: namely in all troubles, and ago­nyes of minde, all must resort to the seruice of Loue, set forth by his elec­ted Minister HN. For this man, if he had not taken that course, he had re­mained without hope of lyfe: certayn­ly [Page] great is the honor, wherewith they aduaunce this their priest and prophet, aboue all that is called God: but my hope is, that with the blast of the Lord his mouth, which he hath published in the scriptures: he shall be confounded and ouerthrowne so low, that the fall of him, which so exalted himselfe, shall be to the comfort of all the Lord his children: for whose [...]ake, he now be­ginneth to mani [...]est this lying Pro­phet, and will I hope, rayse vp to his Church, men of zelous mindes, which will both write, and speake agaynst this wicked man of sinne: which is in such credit with deceaued people, which the Lord in mercy spedely bring to passe: to the glory of thy name, the comfort of thy church, and the spoyle of Sathan, and his ympes.

Vitell.

37 BVt he gaue me to vnderstande there through that he would be mer [...]ifull vnto all penitent sinners, how horrible sinnes soeuer they had [Page] cōmitted, therefore I may say a medi­cine master getteth gretest pray [...]e by those that haue the filth [...]est and cor­ruptest disea [...]es, as a leprous person, and such like. [...]uen so haue I the gre­test cause to land the Lord, and must confes that he wh [...]ch is mighty hath done great things on me, and holy is his name.

Answere.

NOw after this man hath shewed 37 his conflict of minde, and how he was delyuered through the seruice of loue, ministred by HN. Now he tel­leth that by y^t same he vnderstood that God would be mercifull to al sinners, and I pray you, did you not know of this mercy but by HN? Were you ig­noraunt [...]of the Scriptures before you came acquainted w^t him & his bookes? His mercy and compassion is plenti­fully declared in the gospell, which it seemeth you were ignorant of. This medicine m [...]ster HN. hath wrought a great cure vpon this man. For as one [Page] of your schollers haue written in his defence, He teacheth with power, and it may be, the power of Sathan which leadeth men into errors and heresies. Although you imagine that this is wrought by the mighty hand of the Lord, abusing the words of the [...]anti­cle, which the blessed virgine did set forth magnifying the name of y^• Lord thereby.

Touching your diseases which you count to be cured: it is out of dout that you are more full of infirmities, and desperate diseases then euer you were, although you feele them not. For a body that feeleth no sicknes, yet infirme, and weake, is hard to be cured, yea ir­recuperable as Phisitions prescribe. Looke therfore more rightly into your selfe, and you that are so whole & clene you shall finde matter of corruption in you, whereupon the true Phisition of our soules Christ Iesus, shall (if you acknowledge your sicknes and infir­mity) worke therby such an alteration in you, as heretofore you neuer had [Page] the lyke: but if you stand vpon your perfection, & integrity, he commeth to such a as terrible Iudge, to your confu­sion: where on the contrary we reioyce in his mercy, still acknowledging our sinnes, & our wantes, crying, & calling vpon him all the dayes of our ly [...]es with the Prophet Dauid, and saying: if thou O Lord, looke straightly vpon our sinnes, Lord Lord, who shall abide it &c. Correct vs O Lord, but yet in thy mercy, not in thy fury, least we should be consumed &c. thus we still call vpō the Lord for our deliuery, & acknow­ledge our continuall transgressions, which are euer before vs, as prickes to prouoke vs forward, to doe therein our duety, that is, to aske mercy of the Lord our God: who willeth vs to call vpon him, in the day of our trouble.

Vitell.

FVrthermore cōcerning Christo­phers being at Paules Crosse, and the cause why he came there: that can my Lord Byshop, doctor Grin­dall [Page] declare best: For he knoweth, he found me in no error, and so he there sayd: neither had he any law, to com­pell me to come the [...]her: but he desi­red me to come & cōfesse that I held no such opiniō, or error, wherby the false brute might be stayed, which went of me, so I accomplished his re­quest therein, albeit I cōfessed, that I had in some poyntes bin deceiued, by certayne straungers, &c. now I wish that you would inquire of my Lord, doctor Grindall: for I thinke he will testify the matter, euen as it was.

Answere.

38 COncerning Christopher Vitells being, and recanting, at Paules Crosse: there are many yet liuing, that were presēt, & doe verefy what I haue sayd: & touching my L. of Cant. whom you appeale vnto: if y^• case be so, as you haue affirmed: then is he worthy great blame to desire any mā to recāt, which is in no error, [...] come to such a famous place, as Paules Crosse is.

Before in the 35. section, you con­fesse, that out of the wisedome of the [Page] flesh, sprang all Christoffer [...]itells errors, and now you affirme, that you were in no error: agayne in this trac­tation, you confesse, that in some poyntes, you had bin deceaued by cer­tayne straungers: and in an other place, you a [...]ouch, that by no other mens counsell, or bookes you were de­ceiued: such a gift you haue to say▪ and vnsay: to affirme, and to deny: but the trueth is, that you were prisoner in the counter in woodstret, by commaun­dement of the Byshop that then was, and there is your name regestred: and your comming was not voluntary, as you vntruely affirme: but coacted by the law. Mages [...]rates vse not to de­sire men to come to publick place, to confesse their heresies: but the law it selfe doth vrge it, and you, according to the law, for your releasement out of prison, did recant at the Crosse: and named your error, to be Arrianisme: whether you did it from the hart, that the Lord God knoweth.

Now consider this man, for his cre­dit sake among his deceaued Familye [Page] would perswade, that such a péece of iniustice, was shewed vnto him, as he sayth: but he is proued a lyer, not one­ly in this, but in many other matters: verefying the olde prouerb, mend [...]cem memorem esse oporte [...]: a lyer had neede to haue a good memory.

And where as you so confidētly af­firme, that you were in no error, whē you were at the Crosse: the contrarye whereof is manifest. I will put you in minde of the disputations, and con­ferēce, that diuers mē had with you in Queene Maryes dayes: M. Ro. Crow­ley a reuerent and godly preacher yet liuing who affirmeth, y^t seueral, times he disputed with you, concerning the blasphemy of Arryus, and you cōtinu­ally denyed Christ Iesus to be God, equall with his Father: and immoue­ably you remained all her raigne of that minde: and this M. Crowley, is redy to auouch agaynst you, whensoe­uer you, or any for you: will require to be certafied: Also one Ione Agar, an olde mayde, which wayted on those in [Page] office for the Cittye, as Mayors, and shrieffes, did declare to M. Fulkes the Elder, and others, that you Christo­pher Vitell, whome she named to be hyr cosin, had taught her playnely, that Christ was not God: but onely a good man, and a Prophet: and that there were men that shee did know liuing, that were as good, and as holy men, as he was: and further, that Maister La­timer, Maister Ridley, and others (which gaue their lyf [...] for Christes cause,) were starke fooles, and did not well in suffering death: such wicked­nes haue you bin the Aucthor of: & yet now to hould your credit with your Familye: you would haue the world beleue, that you were in no error: but you are worthy the reward of a lyer: which is, that when he speaketh trueth he is not beleued.

This man is chosen, and found to be the aptest person, to be an illuminat Elder in HN. his Family, & of greatest credit, among those deceiued soules: a fitter instrument to beare record of [Page] HN. and his doctrine: then to declare the ioyfull message of Christ our re­deemer, whome he hath blasphemed, denying his diuinitye: worthely are they deluded, that follow such a de­ceiuer.

That man, that once hath made shipwrack of fayth & good conscience, and is possessed with error, it is hard to reclayme him: but that some spice of that maladye will lurke in him, or a worse: as is proued true by you: you confessed then, you were deceaued by certayne straungers: and haue you not as great cause to suspect your selfe deceaued now, by HN. a straunger in nation, and estraunged from God, and Christ, in his doctrine published: con­trary to his will reuealed in the holy scriptures? if you would consider with indifferency, you were neuer so nota­bly deceiued then, as you are now: for looke into all the workes of HN. what doe they tend to? but that he is a prophet raysed vp by God, and an e­lected minister, a priest in office, by [Page] whome God wil receiue all men in mercy. With such lyke testimonyes, doth he vtter of himselfe, and his Fa­milye, doe beleue the same. I would his credit were not so great with you but that you could cōpare his sa [...]ings with the scriptures, and haue an eye vnto [...]s collections of the same, and how he followeth the grossest [...]raslati­on of the Bible, delighting in that most specially, and his allegations ap­plyed so farre from the sence of the holy ghost, that a man meanely exer­cised [...]n the scripture, may playnely see his corruption.

Many brutes haue bin of you, tou­ching your erronious spirite, and in deede, they that haue truely noted your disposition, doe affirme, that you could neuer lyke of any publick doctrine, which was taught: but had alwayes a desire of singularitye: such a trou­bler of Christ his Church haue you bin: but blessed be the name of y^• Lord, who hath made manifest your her [...] ­sies, although you will not scarcely [Page] acknowledge thē: so that the simplest among many thowsandes, is sufficiēt­ly ass [...]sted by the Lord, to bewray, and display your manifest impietye, and the Lord hath in store of his Church, that will not ioy, nor rest in peace, vntill all your errors be disclosed, and [...]ou, and your fellowes be brought to [...]umble your selues before the Lord, without your HN. which the Lord bring spedely to passe. Amen.

Vitell.

39 NOw must I for want of tyme, passe ouer, and omit many thinges, and submit my cause vnto the almighty: desiring him of his goodnes, for to try our cause in his ballaun [...]e of equitye, euen with the Loue and trueth: for so shall there then be expressed, and testified by the light, or Christ: that Gods ho­nour is declared with the Loues seruice most sincerely.

Aunswere.

THis Libel was not long enough:39 but he mu [...] o [...]t much matter, and so as he sayth, submit his cause vn­to the almighty, &c. [...]ut if you did as becōmeth a true Christian: you should not onely submit your cause vnto the Lord, who in patience su [...]freth Ipo­crites to trouble his Church: but also submit your doctrine, to be tryed, and iudged by his holy word: which is a iust iudge in all causes of controuersy. For if your protestation shall be admit­ted without exception, thē euill doers, and blasphemers of God, and Christ, may haue liberty to referre their cause vnto the Lord, but since almighty God hath in earth a knowen Church, it is requisite that euery one, (being requi­red,) should geue account of his fayth, and hope as the scriptures doe teach: you would haue your cause tryed in the ballaunce of equitye, a truer bal­lance is not, then his law, which is without blot, or wrinkle: if you would abide the tryall thereof, your doctrine [Page] and your patrone HN. should be found lighter then vanitye it selfe.

Where you adde with the Loue & trueth (the Loue) you so often con­found, that you know not your selues, the meaning thereof: sometyme you wil signifie Christ by that name (loue) sometime a vertue procéeding: some­tyme a qualitye of the minde: & some­tyme for the exercise, which you pri­uately vse: where to finde the expositi­on of this word (Loue) you leue it as vncertaine: then it shall be expressed you say, by the light, or Christ, that by you, God his honor is declared: with the Loues seruice sincerely: here is Loue agayne ioyned with seruice: which cannot meane (as I thinke) any thing [...]lls, but God his seruice. I take it in the best part: if you haue any other more secret misterye there­in, I leaue to your selues: but tou­ching any seruice, you doe to God: it is Ipocrysye: so long as you serue him, without Christ: or with any other and Christ: for he will admit no other to [Page] haue place in mens hartes, but him­selfe, he made all, he requireth all.

Vitell.

OH what a daūgerous tyme is it 40 presently in these last dayes, and how vnrightly haue many vnre­generated men, set vp themselues, to geue iudgement with their good thinking: For whatsoeuer euery one mindeth, thinketh good, and elec­teth, [...]ther falleth to, that same pray­seth, and iudgeth he for the most best, and for a righteousnes, & there­to also he wresteth the scripture ac­cording to his will: for the scripture is seruiceable vnto euery one, euen as he is minded, (be it whatsoeuer,) to be high minded in pleasant lustes: either to be debased in misery, to be mer [...]y, or sorowfull, with sighing, ei­ther with thankes to be despised, and persecuted, or to persecute and des­pise one an other, and many such lyke. &c.

Answere.

40 OF the daūgerous tyme, we are not ignorant of: and more we tell you, that you, and your fellowes make the tyme much more daunge­rous, and troublesome with your er­rors, which HN. and you haue raysed vp. Now you complayne, that vnre­generat men, haue set vp themselues: you meane by vnregenerat men, all others which are not illuminat, nor deif [...]ed as your Elders are. The chil­dren of God, for whome Christ dyed, whose names are written in the booke of lyfe: are regenerate, although, as I haue sayd before, you account none to be regenerat, but such as haue no mo­tions of sinne, or sinne not: but you say that the same vnregenerat men, with their good thinking▪ that same he pray­seth, and iudgeth for righteousnes: but who might worse alledge the same then you: who c [...]mm [...]nd without rea­son or cause your Au [...]hor, and his mō ­strous do [...]trin [...], which hath in it such grosse absurd [...]yes, and most contra­ry [Page] to God, and his word: and you are they that pe [...]uert the scripture, to set vp your Prophet, and his doctrine, and what is spoken of Christ, doe you not wickedly apply the same to your HN. doe you not apply this place of Mala­rhy. chap. 3. which our Sauiour Christ verefied to be propesied of Iohn, be­hold,Prophesie [...]ol. 1. I will send my messenger which shall prepare the way before me. A­gaine Math. 11. he shall turne the hart of the Fathers to the children,In the pre­ [...]c [...] of the Prophesie Fol. 1. and the hartes of the children, &c. doe you not (I say) apply these places to signifye your HN. and that it is ment by him? therefore, there are none found such wresters of the scriptures as you.

And where as you affirme, that the scripture is seruiceable vnto euery one therein you shew what reuerence you haue vnto y^• same: for although you, & such others do abuse the scripture, con­trary to y^• purpose of y^• holy ghost: yet are the scriptures, y^• wisedome of God reuealed to man, and is a perfit law of righteousnes, and not as you vngodly, [Page] and vnreuerently tearme it, seruicea­ble vnto euery one. Your companions the Papistes haue as you doe, called the scripture a nose of ware, a ship­mans hose, &c. but most wickedly, and falsely, to both your confusions, it is the power of God vnto saluatiō. Vn­to them that beleue the sauour of lyfe, vnto lyfe: but vnto such as you are, which so vnreuerently speake thereof, it is the sauor of death vnto death: the scriptures doe not maintayne pleasant lustes, nor high mindes, as you vnre­uerently suppose: but they are to com­fort, and lift vp the sorrowfull, and broken mindes: and to beate downe, and correa, the hauty and proud sto­mackes. If vngodly men, such as you are, abuse them to other purposes, the fault is in the persons, not in the word.

Vitell.

41 WHereunto euery one wresteth the scripture, and defendeth his cause therewith, insomuch, that eue­ry [Page] one thinketh that he, for his part, hath the most best. Behold, with such a misery is the man plagued, & such manner of good thinking, and vn­profitable burthen hath he taken v­pon him, oh that we left all such, and gaue ouer our vnderstanding cap­tiue, ether suffred it to be plu [...]kt vn­der the obedience of the loue of Ie­su Christ, and followed after the cō ­mon brotherly loue, innocently, or vndeceitfully: and continued con­cordably in prayer vnto God, [...]l that God receiued vs to mercy, & released vs frō the sin of the ignorant know­ledge, and established his promise on vs, to the laud, prayse, and honor of his holy name, and to our saluation.

Aunswere.

YF euery one wrest the scripture, where shall wee finde Christ his 41 Church, who is led by the spirite of trueth, according to his promise: th [...] greatest wresters of the word, are you your selues, as is before shewed: [Page] that euery one thinketh, that he hath the best part, (as you say:) For mens thoughtes, we referre to his know­ledge that is Scrut [...]tor cordium, & re­mum.

Also you affirme, that man is pla­ged with such a miserye, and burthen: but we rather say, oh miserable man, out of whose corrupt nature springeth such presumption, and wickednes: to be vnder the obedience of the Loue of Christ Iesus, is our whole care and study [...]: to him onely we cleaue: on him we call: vpon his mercy we de­pend: and carefully seeke, & indeuour to be obedient to his will: for he is our hope, our anker hold, our mercy seate, our only cōfort in all distresse of mind: our phisitiō in sicknes: our gouernour in health: our peacemaker: the onely purchaser of our health, and saluatiō: he is all in all with vs, and wée enioy all in all by him, and through him: and if this sayth were also planted in you, then would your HN. be bani­shed out of your hartes, and your per­fection [Page] would soone quaile: and in hu­militye of spirite, you would [...]ith v [...] fall downe before this méeke Lambe Christ Iesus, and say, peccauimus cum patribus nostris, &c. We haue sinned with our Fathers: without which Christ, no flesh, that is, no creature liuing is iustified in his fathers sight: and Christ his death is proper to none nor b [...]longeth to none, but sinners, and such a [...] feele sinne, or are laden with sinnes.

What shall then become of you Iusticiaryes with your perfite state which sinne not: to follow brotherly loue, is also to be wished: both in you and vs, and I pray you doe euen the same: thē shall you not séeke out y^• simple people, whose capaciti is lyke vnto ware, which will easely receiue any print or marke: seek not with your fly, and suttle perswasions, to seduce thē with your corrupt doctrine▪ vnder pre­ [...]ence that you seeke, onely the godly lyfe which Christians should follow: whereas in déede you séeke to leade thē [Page] from Christ to HN. from the [...]omfort of the holy scriptures: which sheweth how mercy is offred to all penitent sin­n [...]rs: vnto a perfite state of lyfe, which must be attained in this world which neuer any, Christ Iesus except, could attayne vnto: and so you corruptly leade them away from all comfort in Christ: Therefore we will not let to desire the Lord in mercy, to pre­serue his childrē, from your infected poyson.

Vitel.

42 THerfore speketh the lord through his Prophet Zac [...]ary, Iudge righ­teously, and let euery one shew goodnes and mercifulnes vnto his brother, and let no man deale vnrightly with another, nor with the widowes, fa­therles, s [...]angers, and poore. And let no man imagine any euill against his brother in his ha [...]t, but alas they will not haue [...]gard hereupon, but [...]u [...]ne the [...] backs saith the Lord vn­to [Page] me, and stop their eares that they heare not, and harden their ha [...]es as hard as a diamont. For that they should not be obedi [...]t to the law & the word which the lord sendeth in his spirite through his prophets.

Aunswere.

TOuching the saying of [...]achary, we wish the very same: that euery 42 one shew mercy, and deale rightly with his brother, with the widow and fatherles, strangers and poore &c. But can you alleadge these places, & haue no regard to folow the exhortatiō your selues, how rightly do you deale with your brethren, that being required to vtter your faith which you hold, you deal suttelly and deceitfully with such as with well vnto you, and seeke your health and delyuery from error. Now regard you that no man imagine euill in his hart against his brother, when as you call vs free [...]nes, Liberti [...]es, and wicked blasphemers, &c. Who turnes their backs, who stoppes their [Page] [...]ares, who harden their harts? Haue not you turned from Christ to HN? Haue not you stopt your eares against all holesome admonition, which the holy Ghost hath plentifully in the ho­ly scriptures set forth? and only bent your harts vpon the bookes and wry­tyngs of HN? Haue you not hardened your harts and bent your faces against a manifest truth, and placed HN. a prophet, & priest, by whō God wil receiue all vnto mercy? On whom may this propheticall speach or exhortation be better applyed, then vpon your selues, and yet will not I goe about to excuse my selfe and others that we do therein what is required, but only let y^• world see that these men of the Family cry out, and apply the sayings of the Pro­phets against vs, and for themselues, they su [...]pose it belongeth not to them, to take wa [...]ning thereby, in so perfecte a state do they remaine.

Vitell.

43 O God prepare the harts of the [Page] people to the lowlyn [...]ss [...], that they might stand minde [...] in humility to the Loue, and loue the comming of thy Christ in his lordl [...]nes, through whom the whol earth shalbe [...]udged with righteousnes, which shall moue all might and violence, and bring it vnder his obedience, and render vnto thee, O almighty God, the kingdom, all power and glory, to the end that thou mayest be all in all. O god geue this into the harts of the gouernors, that they may see it. And illuminate all kinges, princes, Lords, and poten­tates with thy godly wisdome, that they may feare thy holy name, stand submitted vnto thy Loue and her ser­uice, and might turne them from all violence, and misuse, and that the world may be inhabited to thy praise in the Loue, and in all righteousnes, and that all men in true repentance for their sinnes, might be turned vn­to thee. And the horrible plagues of vngodlynes, which are come ouer the world for their sin [...]es cause, cease, and haue an end.

Answere.

THis part cōtaineth a prayer which this man maketh for all, that they might sta [...]d minded in humility to the loue, as I haue often complayned of the confounding this word Loue, and the signification therof, so here I will t [...]ke it in y^• best part, to signifie God, to whom we craue continually his grace to hū [...]le our harts, that we may euer stand [...] obedyent to his will, and that we may look for that ioyfull cōming of Christ Iesus, whose appearing shal be to the comfort of his elect, & to their surpassing ioy: but as a terrible iudge to the wicked despisers of his mercy offe­red, and to such as haue s [...]t vp in their harts any other besides him, or follow any other but him, or delite in any o­ther sauing h [...]m. No violence can re­sist him, no strength preuail with him, but as you say, all shall be brought vn­ [...]er his ob [...]d [...]ence.

[...]here as you pray that all kings princes &c. may [...]ea [...]e thy holy name, [Page] and stand submitted to thy loue. [...]ere is loue takē in another sence, therfore you intricatly vse this word Loue: wherby your meaning can not easily be found out.

For, here loue and her seruice, is meant such doctrine, and seruice, [...]s you teach, which you wi [...]h all princes were partakers of, if your doctrine were a truth in d [...]de, then were your prayer good: but forasmuch as your doctrine is false, wicked, and fantasti­call, therfore your prayer is corrupte, and abhominable, and to be despised, and all princes that fear the Lord, wil become vtter enemies to you [...] your doctrine, and seek diligently to amend (if it be possible) your corruptions, and I doute not but the Lord hath in his Church, men of zealous mindes, who will not see the glory of our immortall God, nor the death, passion, and resur­rection of Christ Iesus our Lord, so defaced, dar [...]kned, and shadowed. And that his Church may be purged of such corrupt weedes, which spring vp, [Page] séeking to destroy that good corn, which is sowed already.

O Lord God we humble sinners a­biding in the vnity of thy holy Church doe most humbly, & hartely pray thee euē for thy sonne, our Sauiour Christ Iesus sake, that thou wilt in m [...]rcy looke vpon thy poore afflicted Church, and the members thereof, that by no malice of Sathan, no pretence of col­lored speach, nor no vanity of minde, any of thy children be caryed away, as straying from thy fould: but that O Lord, they may agayne be ioyned to thy flock: so that so many as pertayne vnto that good shepherd of our soules,Iohn. 10. Christ Iesus, may laud and prayse thy name with one voyce: and O Lord we most humbly beseech thee, to clense thy Church, from the filthy dregges of doctrine, which wicked mē, through the malice of Sathan haue deuised to disquiet thy peaceable Sion: conuert thou them O Lord wée beseech thee: mollify their stony hartes, which haue set vp a Prophet, whome thou O Lord [Page] hast not sent: let them O Lord behold how farre they haue declyned from thy wayes, and followed the doctrine of deceaueable men: let them see from whome they haue departed, & to whom they clea [...]e fast. And although we O Lord, by our offences, and the many­fold transgressions wherwith we pro­uoke thy merci [...]ull goodnes, who doe know thy will, and yet are so slow performer [...] therof, wherby thou O Lord, doest punish our offences, so that wic­ked men now set vp thēselues against vs, accusing vs and that worthely, of the breaking of thy holy lawes. So O Lord, although we haue thus sore pro­uoked thy goodnes by our offences, yet we beseech thee consider thy sonne our Lord and Sauiour, whose obedience & righteousnes to thy will▪ thou hast by promise made it ours, so that belōging to thy sonne, we are shadowed vnder his righteousnes, and couered vnder his winges in safety from eternall de­struc [...]ion. But such is thy goodnesse O mercifull God, to try thy children here [Page] in earth, how stedfast we will bid bat­ta [...]le against Sathan and his impes, and how constant we will abide there­in: so that no blast nor inuation of enemies shall, I hope, shake that founda­tion of faith that thou hast pl [...]nted in vs, which we most humbly desire thy maiesty to increase, and that we may perseu [...]re and continue in the vnity of thy holy church in this life, and after we may inioy t [...]e fruition of thy godly mai [...]stye, and sing pr [...]yses vnto thee world without end.

Vitell.

44 O Lord let vs finde grace before thine eyes, and heare ou [...] humble s [...]pplication which we make vn­to thee, in the sorrowfulnesse of our ha [...]ts. For a broaken hart and a sor­rowfull sp [...]ite wilt thou O Lord not despise▪ for euen there wilt thou enter [...], and therby m [...]e thine habitati­on, and sanctifie thy name from ge­n [...]ration t [...] [...]en [...]tio [...], [...] in euerla­stingnes, It is very true.

Answere.

O Lord we b [...]seech thée turne the 44 harts of thes [...] deceaue [...] people, and graunt them thy hol [...] s [...]irit, y^• they may discern thy truth tau [...]ht in thy holy word, and not geue ea [...]e vnto an [...]e which teach cōtrary therto, ouerthrow their deuices, brig to light their de [...]ts for thy holy names sake. That we thy childrē may rei [...]yce ouer their t [...] uersiō & so together with one voice, magnifie & praise thy glorious name▪ and that those straying sh [...]p may be brought in to thy fold again, [...] it be thy bles [...]d wil

Reueale vnto them O Lord we be­seech thee, the office, and death of thy sonne, our Lord and Sauiour: that they tasting the swetenes thereof, may [...]orsake the confidence they haue in their perfection, and that we may all acknowledge onely Christ Iesus to be per [...]ite: and we our selues, dust, and dung, and whatsoeuer is vile: let n [...]t Sathan lead thē captiue, but O Lord we besech thee, pull them out of the Lyons mouth: and conioyne them to [Page] thy holy Church, out of which, they haue wandred ouer long, in doctrines of men.

Let thy strength appeare O Lord, and let our weakenes be made open to them: let the effect of thy Gospell breake into their hartes of stone: that they may tast, & féele, how sw [...]ete the Lord is in mercy towardes sinners: and how seuere to such as iustify thē ­selues.

And if it stand with thy good will & pleasure, thus to cōuert thē, at the sute of our earnest prayers: we shall for the same, geue thankes in thy Church e­uermore. But if thy Churche shall haue thereby, their tryall made knowē to the world: herein O Lord kéepe thy children, and such as loue th [...] Lord Iesus, & embrace the ioyfull tidinges of the Gospell, in thine owne bosome: that they be not led away, with any pretences of pietye, into error, or cor­ruption: but defend them as thou hast promised:Ps [...]lme. 1. that what pittye, a Father hath ouer his childrē, lyke pittye thou [Page] O Lord wilt shew vnto thē: which we besech thee graunt vs, for thy sonne Iesus Christ his sake: to whome with the holy ghost: be honor, land prayse, power, and dominion: from euerla­sting, to euerlasting, So be it.