A REMONSTRANCE: OR PLAINE DETECTION OF SOME OF THE FAVLTS AND HIDEOVS SORES OF SVCH SILLIE SYLLOGISMES AND IMPER­TINENT ALLEGATIONS, AS OVT OF sundrie factious Pamphlets and Rhapsodies, are cobled vp together in a Booke, Entituled, A DEMONSTRATION OF DISCIPLINE: Wherein also, The true state of the Controuersie of most of the points in variance, is (by the way) declared.

2. Timoth. 3. ver. 5, 6, & 7.

They haue a shew of godlinesse, but haue denied the power thereof: turne away therefore from such, for of this sort are they which creepe into houses, and lead captiue simple women laden with sinnes, and led with diuers lustes, which are euer learning, and are neuer able to come to the knowledge of the trueth.

Augustinus in Psal. 34.

Quare in Praecisione vultis magnificare nomen Domini? quare duos populos ex vno vultis facere?

Cyprianus lib. 4. epist. 9. ad Florentium Pupianum.

Pupianus solus integer, inuiolatus, sanctus, pudicus, qui nobis miscere se noluit: in Paradiso & in regno coelorum solus habitabit.

Imprinted at London by GEORGE BISHOP and RAFE NEWBERIE.

An. Domini 1590.

TO THE FACTIOVS AND TVRBVLENT T.C.VV.T. I.P. AND TO THE REST OF THAT AN­archicall disordered Alphabet, which trouble the quiet and peace of the Church of England.

MAnifold and foole-hardie haue your op­positions and practises bene against the setlement of that discipline of the Church of England, which beyond all iust contra­diction, we rightly mainteine, as lineally deduced from the Apostles and primitiue times downeward vnto vs, and to be re­duced from our times vpward vnto them: As namely by your opposite Admoniti­ons to the Parliament, by Pamphlet-writing of Replies, by Counter­poyson, by Abstract, by Dialoguizing, by Martinizing, or printing of infamous libels, by penning, or Penrying of malepart, and treasonable letters, by coursing and discoursing ouer the holy discipline of the Church: And nowe at last, by shewe and demonstration, or by making colourable shewe and false demonstration to conclude your discipline in Syllogisme, That is, to seclude your selues from all pretence of the thing you would haue for euer after before you are awares, and that in Moode and Figure. The subtiller sorte of Heretikes haue done no more, then you haue done to vexe the Church.Tertullian. de Praescript. ad­uers. H [...]. Apelles the disciple of Marcion had certaine priuate, but extraordinarie Lectures, or Rea­dings, [Page]or prophesies of his owne, which they called Phaneroseis, decla­rations or demonstrations of a certaine maide, named Philumena, whome he followed as a Prophetesse. Habet praetereà suos libros quos inscripsit Syllogismorum, Besides this, he hath his bookes, to which he giueth this title of Syllogismes, wherein he vndertakes to proue, That whatsoeuer Moses hath writtē is not true, but false. Sem­blably this scholler of T. C. besides all their prophesyings, conferences, priuate sermonings, parlour exercising, libellings, hath brought vnto light this booke of demonstratiue Syllogismes, an incredible and singu­lar good method, and most seruiceable to their owne times: which me­thod if either your Ecclesiasticall discipliners, A. B. C. D. or T.C. or any other of your Alphabet, had heretofore embraced and bound them selues fast vnto, we should not haue needed to pursue after your extra­uagant and stragling conceipts, lying so scattered in your worthie com­mentaries, whereby you doe nothing else then blurre paper, as alwaies saying one & the same thing: nor your selues should be so farre off from ioyning a right issue to determine & trie the cause. For by this demon­stratiue dealing, all waste wordes had bene pared away as excremen­tious and superfluous to the body and state of the question, and your vn­dutifull demeanors against the proceedings & superioritie of Church-gouernors altogether spared. Which stratageme, as in the sight of God and his Angels detestable and damnable, it hath rather with silence then with censure bene answered, and your wits exceedingly misliked therefore: so this sophisme or manner of paralogisme, if it were some­what more mannerly, as dealing with materiall pointes, and letting a­lone personall, might deserue lesse reprehension or mislike, whereunto I haue framed this briefe answere with Remonstrance, shewing the ab­surditie of your reasons, fallacie of your syllogismes, indemonstrable de­monstrations, compiled by other in their bookes, combined vp in this booke of yours, worthied by you of this title, to be named a Demonstra­tion, and to be surnamed a Demonstration of the holy discipline of the Church, not the discipline of the holy Church, because the Church is not so holy, but must be hallowed by the discipline. Whiles I am thus conuersant in answering, I list not make of ten apparent digression from the propositions which I answere, by instance to the contrarie, distincti­on, or deniall, and by returning or retorting all vpon your selues as I might, neither make a roadeouer to inuade other mens persons with selaunder, as the Demonstrator doth particularly, by producing at his [Page]pleasure euery one into the Theatre of enuious diffamation: but I ra­ther leaue a blanke or cyphre in Algorisme, or an Abecedarie name. And doe farther pray, that all protestations of your zeale and godlines laied aside, this Academicall lawe of disputing schoolelike, being once enacted by your selues, may not be repealed: That whether your De­monstrator hath more to say, he may still syllogize, or if he haue ought to gaine-say, it may please him to distinguish, flatly denie, or giue an in­stance to an affirmatiue point. But if he haue no more to say, where­with to fortifie his part, nor is able in this forme to dispose of his sayings; Let the wiser sort of your sectaries suspend their iudgement, from ei­ther crediting or admiring those pitifull demonstrations. All that I haue said, is no more in substance, then that which hath bene afore­said. The solutions of your arguments are included in the answeres to the Admonition, in the defense of that answere, in the answere to the Abstract, in the defense of the discipline of the Church of England, and such other learned workes, excepting some forced allegations annexed to the Demonstration, and the coyned syllogismes. All which, by this method of Remonstrance is reanswered, for it is but one answere. Omne verum, vero consentaneum, Euery truth is but agreeeble to a trueth. Veritas est simplex, mendacium est multiplex, there is but one trueth. And although you multiply and vrge your falshood, or di­uide or subdiuide or part into infinite fractions, yet it is but one and the same obiection, one Proteus putting on diuerse mishapes, the argument sometime clowded vnder an equinoction, or coloured with ambiguitie of termes, or vailed with inconsequencie or disorderly disposition of moode and figure, or transposition of partes of the figure, or borrowing Ignorationem elenchi, Ignorance or vncunning, whether the proposi­tion holde, Ad idem, secundum idem, &c. respectiuely to this, and not to that, or by begging Petitionem principij, to conclude one and the same by the selfe same: Or to be beholding to the fallacte à non causa, by arguing from insufficient cause vntrue effect, and such other sophistications to plaister vp your assertions with vntrueth: videlicet, as these and such like: As when you argue from your Puritane Idaea of gouernment, out of the 14. Rom.

All lawfull things are of faith: all lawfull things of faith are war­ranted by the worde, Ergo, all lawfull things are warranted by the worde, and consequently euery lawfull action in gouernment of the Church: Where the conclusion is vniuersall in the third figure, and [Page] Medius terminus, videlicet, (lawfull things) is in the conclusion con­trarie to all rule of reasoning, and yet the Demonstrator misseth of S. Pauls wordes which are, Quicquid non ex fide peccatum est. All that is not of faith is sinne. Or where as you argue Hypotheticallie out of the 4. Ephes. If all needfull gifts be appropriate to other ministe­ries, then is the Archbishops ministerie vnlawfull, but they are, Ergo, the Archbishops vnlawfull.

And T. C. before you argueth Categorically after this sort:

Those functions onely are sufficient for the Church which haue gifts needfull: but all those Ephes. 4. and Cor. 1.12. haue gifts needfull, Er­go, they are onely sufficient.

Which is as good a conclusion as if one of you did argue thus:

Those things onely are sufficient to saluation which are contained in the Scripture.

But all those things in the Aue Marie are contained in the Scrip­tures, Ergo, those things onely in the Aue Marie are sufficient to sal­uation. Or as cunningly after this sort.

Those onely are men which are endued with reason.

But all the Costerdmongers in London are endued with reason, Er­go, the Costerdmongers in London are the onely men.

Or where you goe about to prooue that none is ordinable to the mi­nisterie, vnlesse he haue a benefice.

As was the 12. place for Mathias, so is a certaine place for euery church officer.

But Mathias was not ordained till Iudas had made it voyd by han­ging himselfe: Ergo, none is to be ordained before the place be voyd.

Adde vnto this, by such maner of Resignation as hanging of himself: Or when another Apostleship falleth voide: Or when euery 12. place is voyd: Or when Mathias commeth againe to be chosen into Iudas place.

The Argument leapeth from one predicament to another, from the predicament Agere to Vbi: They ordained him to an office, Ergo, to a place, and a certaine place, as if the Apostles were not to preach [...], in all the world.

Or when you will euince indefatigable residence of the Minister on the place out of the 1. Samuel 9.

Elie the priest sate vpon a stoole by one of the postes of the Temple, Ergo, a Minister must be resident, and belike must also as he did sit [Page]downe vpon a stoole. Or this: A Shepeheard must feede: a Minister is a Shepeheard, Ergo, he must corporally and continually reside, with­out naturall or legall dispensation for his absence.

As if you had sayd a Minister to be a Shepeheard, otherwise then Metaphoricallie: for a king also is a shepeheard, but in a Metaphor, who may law fully depute others to gouerne and to feede.

Or against non Residence out of the 1. Thes. 1.17. v. Satan hin­dered mee: Satan is the cause of non Residence, Ergo, vnlawfull: where the Demonstrator maketh S. Paul to write good diuinitie. Satan hindred me, that is, after the Demonstrators skill, Satan caused me to doe an vngodly and vnlawfull thing, whereas S. Paul his meaning is, Satan raised persecution against me.

Or as fitly and perfectly after this sort for your popular elections and choise of ministers from the 8. Num. 9. v.

The children of Israel put their handes vpon the heads of the Le­uites.

The Leuites put their hands vpon the heads of bullocks: Ergo, the people must lay their hands on the heads of the Ministers.

Then adde vnto this: The Ministers must lay their hands on the heads of bullocks. T. C. taught you to reason thus from the ceremonie to the Gospell: Et vitulo tu dignus, & hic.

Or when it pleaseth you to establish the presbyterie, you interprete roundly, Dic ecclesiae, tell the Church, that is, the Eldership or Alder­manship of the Church: yea and goe farther for the authoritie of this venerable Eldership, out of the 49. Esay, Kings and Queenes shall worship thee with their face towards the earth, and shall licke vp the dust of thy feete, &c. Ergo, great homage and honour shall be done to the Eldership.

Or in that place where you ouerthrow all standing superioritie of Ministers ouer Ministers, you demonstrate after this fashion.

A bishop is called Episcopus.

An ordinarie Minister is called Episcopus: Ergo, all one.

Or a Bishop and an ordinarie Minister must haue one qualitie: Er­go, a parish Bishop and a diocoesan Bishop are all one thing. Or, all Bi­shops are equall in commission of the Ministerie: Ergo, equal in what­soeuer commission of authoritie. Or, In the beginning for a while a Bishop and a priest or Minister were all one: Ergo, they must continue all one.

For in the Apostles time was the change, and that same, I am of Paul, I am of Cephas, was the occasion of the change: and finally the decree of all the world (at least as S. Hierome thinketh) was the ap­probation of the change. This were strange reasoning: In the begin­ning Kings and priests were all one, ergo, they must continne all one. In the beginning such was the simplicitie, &c. Great lords sonnes, as Iacob, &c. kept their fathers sheepe: ergo, noble mens children mus [...] keepe their fathers sheepe. In the beginning they baptized in Riuers, ergo, men must carie their children downe to be christened in Riuers. Or in another, where you demonstrate agaynst the superioritie of Archbishops.

If the Pope be odious, the Archbishop is odious also, as who would say: If the vnmeasurable and illimitable power be vnlawfull, Ergo, a modest and limited superioritie by law is vnlawfull also. Finiti ad In­finitum nulla est proportio. Or,

The Archbishops office and name is vnknowen to vs Puritanes, Ergo, vnknowen and vnheard of in the Church.

You shall well know that both the name and equitie of the name and thing is knowen and allowed of in Gods Church. Or, where it plea­seth you to say.

Caluin saieth there were gouernours of order, not of superioritie: Ergo, this is true: as if it were truly sayd, all gouernment of superio­ritie is gouernment of disorder, and that these were opposite. Or in the demonstration: To prooue Doctor and Pastor to be distinguished, you dispute cunningly thus.

Male and female are distinct in sexe or kind, Gal. 3. Ergo Do­ctor and Pastor must be distinct: why not then in sex or kind? with ma­ny other like Paralogismes, as in your seuerall Chapters shal be vnfol­ded, the whole Demonstration being nothing els but a bundle of ab­surdities. Howbeit, the booke thereof is a thing so preciously esteemed by the author himself, so magnified by his folowers, as worthy to be set vpon the highest pinacle of this Church new reformed: for which cause hee giueth himselfe such applause for writing of it, & glorifieth himselfe as if he were riding vpon the Cherubins with Luciferian pride, or as if he were to draw downe as the Dragons taile all the starres in the firma­ment, consent of scriptures, Councils, Fathers old and new, onely to giue light to the cause in handling.

And concerning other mens bookes that haue oppugned the cause, [Page]he speaketh scornefully and disdainfully, as of the lord Archbishop and Deane of Sarum their bookes, whose learned trauailes, neither T. C. W. T. I. V. nor any ecclesiasticall discipliner of them all, are able to confute, vnlesse to raile in all their writings, and snatch at one word in 40. leaues, bee to answere a booke: whose vertue notwithstanding shall shine, when your canckred malice shall bee dead. Touching that most reuerend Prelate, you and your complices may in this licentious and outragious world speake pleasurablie: Neuer yet good man spake but honour of him, whom her Maiestie hath graciously vouchsafed vnder her to exercise Christian iurisdiction and authoritie: whose Primacie is humilitie, who is for his vertue no lesse honoured then loued, whose learning angreth you, vnto whom if you will make answere, you must studie for more learning. I am verily perswaded, that as God in all ages raised excellent men, instruments of his glorie to confute and ba­nish out of the Church heresie, as Athanasius against the Arrians, Augustine against the Donatists, Augustine and Hierome against the Pelagians in former times: In our latter times bishop Iewell a­gainst the false Catholikes and Semipelagians: so God hath stirred vp this learned man against the false brethren and Aerians of our time, to hammer and beate downe the schisme and singularitie of Pu­ritanes. And therefore I doe humbly thanke God, that it hath pleased his glorious maiestie in heauen, and her excellent maiestie here on earth, to reserue him to these times. I speake it in the feare of God, had not her Maiesties principall spirite of wisedome illumined with Gods trueth, together with the Heroicall prudent spirites of certaine hono­rable personages and industrious learned men, affecting a prouident care of the posteritie of the Church, patronized this Church-disci­pline, your priuate spirites of new-fangled discipline happily had more preuailed against these godly and religious proceedings in the Church, nay, to the vtter remoouing of the Gospell by such confusion and Anar­chie. Imagine that the externall face of that Church where you might see so many thousand Superintendents, so many Elderships aduanced in or aboue the Church, to make orders and to censure at pleasure, where the people giue voices, the Laitie lay on handes, the maiestie of the Prince excluded from all swaie in the presbyterie: all antiquitie forlorne, all Councils vtterly repealed, doctrine deuided from exhor­tation, Laie-men Deacons of the Church, parish bishops, parrot prea­chers, the Vniuersities disgraced of the priuiledge of granting degrees, [Page]Cathedrall Churches by greedie wolues spoiled, all courtes of Iustice ouerthrowen or impaired by the Consistoriall court of Elders, and as it were all the trees of the garden of Eden plucked vp, to implant Sam­bucus the faire goodly Elders or Elder tree. Or els what may be the fantasie or imaginarie forme of this reformation in matters of Eccle­siasticall gouernment? They themselues skill not: or when you haue supplanted or ouerturned, or turned out those Ecclesiasticall Senators and gouernours which we haue, whence shall the supplie bee of able go­uernours? from beyond the seas? that is impossibilitie. From your selues? that is matter of difficultie. From vs againe? that were egregious and ridiculous follie. Might it not fare with vs as it sometimes did with the Commons of the Citie of Capua? the Commons bare a deadly hate to the magistrates and gouernours of the Citie. Vpon a time the councell of the Citie being in consultation of their affaires, one Pacunius (as Liuie writeth) Homo vsus malis artibus, he was not the best man, maketh an insurrection with the Commons, and suddenly shutteth all the Magistrates into one place, and with sufficient garrison keepeth the place, and held them all as prisoners within, giueth farther this coun­sell to the Commons to draw them foorth one by one, and to put euery one to death, and to put others in their places, to create new and bet­ter gouernours of the Citie. This aduise pleased them well. He com­maundeth in order the first to be drawen foorth to execution, as a man woorthie of death: euery base and tumultuarie varlet crieth out, he is woorthie of an hundred deaths, let him bee shortened by the shoulders. The noble Senator whiles he is to lay downe his necke vpon the blocke, Pacuuius (as chiefe speaker) pawseth on the matter: Sirs, before wee put this man to death, it were good we did nominate another to occu­pie his place: this noble Citie may not stand without a Senate. That counsell also seemeth pleasing vnto them, they streight proceed on to the nomination and election of a Senatour, One man nameth one, that man nameth another, each man as he best fansieth, maketh a seue­rall nomination: no sooner any man is named, but a 1000. exceptions are taken to the partie, the person named is thought vnwoorthy ei­ther for basenesse of his parentage, or vilenesse of his trade, or meane­nesse of his fortunes, or lacke of this, or lacke of that: the sedition thereupon is dissolued of it selfe, the election of a new set of officers is interrupted, euery one plainly seeth his owne follie and temeritie. Sem­blablie if like power were giuen, as in the Preface of your Demonstra­tion [Page]you pray for, (which God forbid) to shut vp into a corner our Re­uerend Fathers and Ecclesiasticall magistracie, and you readie vpon the change to transforme our Bishops into your Surueillants, or ouer­watchers, our Conuocations and Chapters, into your maruelous Classi­call conferences and Synodes, all the whole Hierarchie of the Church into your Tetrarchie of Doctor, Pastor, Elder and Deacon (for if you did affect [...] to haue no superioritie, then were you farre worse then the Capuans) If I say your mortall or immortall hatred against the state ecclesiasticall caried you to extinguish this order established in the Church alreadie: blessed God, how would you proceed to the choice of a new Senate Ecclesiasticall and their inuestiture? whiles a man might heare you say of the new Doctor or Pastor, Elder or Deacon, This man hath zeale but no learning, that man learning but no zeale, the other neither zeale nor learning, such a man is factious and full of deadly poison, he a base crafts-man or artisan, another is auarici­ous, and would carie away our bag, T. C. will ouertoppe all, or loueth the preheminences as Diotrephes, each man taking exception vnto other. Doe ye not foresee, or rather doe you not see as in a glasse, the i­mage or bodily shape of the imagined state which you so impetuouslie striue for, and we striue against, and striue will in a good cause vnto the death? Or what need we striue? the strife will be with and within your selues, when you shall see the monstruousnesse of your misbegotten, conceiued foule Embryon, deformed and mishaped birth, borne into the world of Christianitie, which you are so enamoured vpon, and so fond ouer, that euery one must kisse & embrace it in his armes, & blush not to make shew & demonstration of triumph of the birth & natiuitie of the same. How soeuer your fancie deludeth you with ioie, this mon­ster may not be suffered to liue vpon the face of the earth.1. Cor. 15.35. S. Paul som­time sayd [...]: I haue fought with beasts vnder the shape of men at Ephesus, that is, with beastly and mon­struous men and their opinions. So I now say or will assaie to encounter the Demonstrator and his demonstrations, to quell this monster a­mongst men. Of the same mind are many moe of our excellent & lear­ned men. Men are now awakened and will no longer endure these in­signious abuses offered to the Church, to the Vniuersities, to the Colled­ges of learned men. No, no T.C. & you the whole busie sect of Puritans, do not thinke any longer to pester the Church of England. You lacke the most of you (for any thing I see) sound Logike, and other learnings di­uine [Page]and humane. Perchance you, or some of the most ignominious a­mongst you, may deuise an infamous Libell or letter against D. Bridges, or D. Bancroft for his Sermon preached at Paules crosse (a Sermon worthie to be read and printed in the heart of the hearer in deed) or a­gainst the writer of this Remonstrance to solace your selues withall for the meane time, as all heretikes and schismatikes are woont to counte­nance their cause. I doe assure my selfe that none of you dare to vnder­take a publique disputation in the schooles (if those in authoritie shall thinke it fit) or to goe forward with this scholasticall exercise of Syllo­gising. To second your irrefragable, vndoubted, and thrise learned de­monstrations, the next newes I looke to heare from you, will be no refu­tation of this my booke, but a little booke or Libel full fraught with ca­lumnious slander: neuerthelesse, per bonam famam & per infami­am, by good report and bad report we must proceed on to the iustifica­tion of a good cause. And if like dastards and recreants you will not deale with handie-strokes of Syllogisme: let it be an euident signe that you are readie to runne away, and for euer after relinquish your so disputable and demonstrable a cause. *⁎*

Chap. I. A REMONSTRANCE TO THE SVPPOSED DE­MONSTRATION OF PRETEN­DED DISCIPLINE.
The maine Conclusion or Assertion of the first Chapter.

THE worde of God describeth perfectly vnto vs that fourme of gouerning the Church which is lawfull,Demonstra­tion. and the officers which are to execute the same, from the which no Christian Church ought to swarue.

This is the maine conclusion of these monstrous Demonstrations,Remon­strance. not to be worthied the name of Demonstrati­ons, forasmuch as I haue learned, ‘Medium est causa maioris extremi in omni demonstratione,Arist. poster. li. 1.’ which neuer falleth out in any of these Demonstrations: neither are the partes or propositions correspondent to a Demonstrati­on, whereof none can be admitted but such which are ‘Termini pares & reciprocabiles.’ Nor so much as principles or groundes immediate of themselues needing proofe of no other infallibly true, or first true before all other, or foorth with knowne, and to be acknowledged true: or finally, ‘Causae conclusionis:’ But which rather, be probable Syllogismes, and those but very fewe, or indeede Paralogismes, meere Sophismes to make a brawle against receiued trueth.

In this conclusion, if by gouerning, were vnderstoode the dire­ction in faith and manners of euery true member of the Church, it were simply to be granted. But these men (as by their whole discourses appeareth) vnderstand thereby the gouernment for the externall pollicie and orders of the whole Church in generall, also of euery greater part thereof (as the Church of an whole na­tion or prouince) and of euery seuerall congregation.

If therefore by these wordes (describeth perfectly) he and they meane that all the whole frame and forme of this gouernment, and the officers to execute the same, with their names, adiuncts, offices, and seuerall authorities particularly and specifically are either expressed, or by the word of God immediatly and necessa­rily may be concluded: both we denie it, and themselues nowe at length (though with much a doe) confesse it not to be true.

Yet T. C. the Bel-weather of this bande (out of whose forge the Demonstrationer hath taken vp almost all his stuffe on trust) in his bookes did at first so vnderstand it. For because Christ his faithfulnes in Gods house is likened to that of Moses, who des­cribed euery pinne almost of the Tabernacle, therefore he con­cludeth, that not the least particular point tending to externall Church gouernment, is omitted vndescribed in Gods word: As if either he had some Scripture that others haue not seene, or he onely were cleare sighted. And to this very purpose serue all the arguments of this first Chapter: Insomuch as Barrowe (who professeth that he holdeth nothing, which he hath not gathered out of those, and like mens bookes) still thinketh, that none ex­ternal orders or lawes at al are lawful now to be set down for the Church, because Christ hath set downe sufficient in particular.

But the other sorte somewhat wiser, being taught by their schoole-mistresse experience, that vpon triall made euery expe­dient particular in external gouernment could not be so proued, haue by their Champion Martine the Malepart, In his second booke. restrained this whole controuersie to a narrower issue, saying, that the Officers and their offices are so described, and both these forsooth at least, are essentiall.

And the whole fraternitie (as I heare) either in person, or re­presentatiuely, being out of all coastes of this land synodically as­sembled, haue nowe impounded The holy discipline (which they holde to be described in the worde, to be essentiall, eternall, and im­mutable) vnto the fourth part of one sheete of paper: but their Synodicall discipline (which already vpon the first licking is seuen times as great as the other,) they thinke in some respects to be necessarie and eternall, in other respects to be mutable: but howe much of it lookes the one way, and howe much the other way, they haue not yet reueiled. Therefore thus I reason by retortion [Page 3]vpon their owne positions.

Ba- Al forme of gouerning the church, which is lawful, with the officers to execute it, is perfectly described in ye worde of God.

ro- Your Synodicall forme of gouerning, and the officers to exe­cute it (by your owne position) is not perfectly described in the worde of God, ergo,

co. It is not a lawfull forme of gouerning the Church, &c.

The 1. Demonstration.

These things I write vnto thee, &c. 1. Timot. 3.14.15. v. Demonstra­tion. Out of this place I rea­son thus:

That ende which S. Paul respected in writing vnto Timothie, the holy Ghost directeth all Ministers vnto for euer, for it must be kept. 1. Timoth. 6. cap. 14.

But he wrote to direct him in the establishing and building of the Church: ergo, all Ministers are directed by the worde for euer: and consequently neither to adde, nor take from.

Because the Demonstrator will be at an end before he begin­neth,Remon­strance. he frameth his argument à fine, or, à destinatis, from the end.

To the Maior.

Out of this place you can not argue thus: That which S. Paul respecteth, the holy Ghost directeth, &c. Nay the contrary is more reasonable: That which the holy Ghost respecteth, S. Paul doth point vnto, and appoint all Ministers to be respectiue there­vnto: S. Paules intendement runneth not before the holy Ghost, S. Paul thinketh he hath the holy Ghost.

To the Minor.

But Saint Paul wrote for the establishing and building of the Church: This is [...], the Cart before the horse. It is preposte­rous to establish a Church first, and to builde a Church after: The meaning of the place is, howe he should [...]. conuerse in the house of God, which is the Church, 4. cap. 12. v. [...], be a patterne to the faithfull, in speech, in conuersation, in loue, and therefore biddeth him keepe [...], the vndefiled commandement, or the generall comman­dement, one commandement for all: ergo, S. Paul there directeth all Ministers how they should publikely and priuately conuerse.

This your collection is vnnaturall to the text. As for the whole syllogisme, & prosyllogisme, if it were a perfect reason, it maketh nothing against vs: or it is Demonstratio in circulo, a circular de­monstration: Al Ministers must be directed in particular, because [Page 4] Timothie a particular Minister was directed in a generalitie: vel è contrà: Topic. 4. The fallacion is apparent: qui dicit genus non dicit speci­em, nec qui dicit speciem, dicit indiuiduum: Paul gaue there gene­rall direction, ergo all particular direction whatsoeuer.

The conclusion followeth not of those premisses, because it is defectiue in minori extremo, for it ought thus to be concluded.

Da- What ende Paule respected, &c. to that the holy Ghost directeth all Ministers for euer:

ti- The ende that Paule respected, was to direct Timothie to builde and establish the Church, ergo

si. The holy Ghost directeth all Ministers for euer to builde and establish the Church. But this conclusion is false (because all are not to plant Churches, for some build on others foundation) and not the minor, in that Paule taught Timothie at least, to esta­blish the Church, therefore the maior must be vntrue. It had bene more probable if it had bene thus said, Directeth all such ministers as Timothie was, who indeede was B. of Ephesus, as all olde wri­ters, beside the subscription of the epistle doe testifie. Therefore thus I retort with the like argument.

Da- What ende Paul writing to Timothie respected,Retortion. to that the holy Ghost directeth all such Ministers as he was for euer:

ri- Paul writing to him a Bishop, respected as an ende the teaching of his dutie in ordinations of Ministers, and in his iuris­diction ouer others (as may appeare by the precepts of laying on of handes, of examination, approbation, reiection, censures, recei­uing accusations, and for auoiding of partialitie and preiudice) these two, (with the censures annexed) being the preheminen­ces that BB. claime in their seuerall charges, ergo,

j. The holy Ghost directeth all such Ministers for euer as he was (viz. BB.) vnto ordinations of Ministers and iurisdiction.

The 2. Demonstration.

Euery house must be gouerned by the orders of the wise gouernour onely: But the Church is an house,Demonstra­tion. and God an housholder, ergo.

This is no demonstration,Remon­strance. dare I or you say, but a syllogisme in Darij, and the conclusion to be granted for all orders which God hath indeede set downe.

To the Maior.

Euery house must so be gouerned, &c. id est, for matters of im­portance, [Page 5]and to doe nothing contrarie to his orders: for in that gouernment of an housholder, some matters of lesse weight are left to the good discretion of those of the familie, neither is it o­therwise possible to be. It sufficeth if euery house be ordered by the principall orders of the lord, or father of the familie, or by the steward, who is lex loquens. Ioseph was a wise steward ouer all Pharaoh his house, and so are we stewards. Ephes. 4. and yet a ve­ry wise and learned Minister, may misse in direction of some par­ticular matter that may come in experience in the Church.

To the Minor.

The Church is an house, and God an housholder, that is, the Church like an house, God likened to an housholder: ergo. In this connexion of the Maior to the Minor, are foure termini: the con­clusion is naught, and the argument followeth not of ineuitable necessitie, from oeconomiques vnto politiques, or least of all from po­litiques to the Hierarchie of the Church.Retortion. Rather è contrà. Gods house must be gouerned by the orders of himself, & by the faith­ful seruants and stewards of his mysteries, who haue interpreta­tion of the Lord his word & will: ergo, euery mans house may be ordered by the Maister of the housholde, or steward in his place, who hath skill of the L. his pleasure, and his Masters will.

The 3. Demonstration.

That which teacheth euery good way,Demonstra­tion. teacheth also how the Church must be gouerned: but the worde of God teacheth euery good way: ergo, it tea­cheth howe the Church must be gouerned.

To the Maior.

This argument is drawen à Transcendente: Good is Transcen­dent, Remon­strance. which is the Maior. It derogateth nothing from the Maie­stie and sufficiencie of the worde to teach in a generalitie and in­fallible certaintie of the substance, although not in euery indiui­duall circumstance: no arte, no science, no facultie, consisteth of singulars, or prouideth for euery casualtie, much lesse for euery ceremoniall ordinance. Sufficeth vnto vs that the Scripture is [...], inspired from God, & is profitable to doctrine, &c. That the man of God may be made perfect, and euery Christian man may be lead into the right way of saluation, without wandering ignorance, or wanton curiositie.

To the Minor.

The Minor maketh for this exposition. 2. Pro. 9. Tunc intelli­ges iustitiam, & ius, & quicquid rectumest, & omnem orbitam bo­nam: thou shalt then vnderstand equitie and righteousnes, and all right, and euery good way, which is requisite to the spirituall worship of God: for else should all good sciences and artes, and all good medicines which God hath created, be also learned out of the scriptures. Therefore this arrowe shotte out of their owne bowe into the aire vpright, as a childes arrowe falleth into their owne eies.

Ba- The worde of God teacheth euery good way:

ro- But it teacheth not the Synodicall discipline,Retortion. and the muta­bilitie thereof, according to the varietie of seuerall circum­stances, for so themselues in their newe platted discipline, are forced to distinguish and confesse. ergo,

co. Their Synodicall discipline, &c. is no good way.

The 4. Demonstration.

The Demonstrator saith:Demonstra­tion. we cannot glorifie God but by obedience to his worde: But in all we doe we must glorifie God. ergo, In all that we do, we must be obedient to his worde, and consequently in gouerning of his Church.

The Syllogisme and prosyllogisme proue nothing to the pur­pose,Remon­strance. and reproue not any thing of ours.

It is an obedience to the word such gouernment as ours, whe­ther ordeined by it, or subordinate vnto it, alwaies to be confor­mable to the gouernment of his worde: of this sort is euery title and iote of our Liturgie and Communion booke, our ceremo­nies, our prouinciall constitutions, or any lawe in force, which bindeth vs to the subscription or obseruation of the booke. Haue home againe this slender Syllogisme to your selfe.

You cannot disglorifie God,Retortion. but by disobedience to his word: but your recusance of her Maiesties lawfull proceedings vnder God, is as the sinne of witchcraft, & is disglorifying of God: ergo, in not doing or vndoing her Maiesties proceeding, is disobedi­ence to the worde.

The 5. Demonstration.

If meate and drinke cannot be sanctified but by the worde & praier,Demonstra­tion. much lesse any thing is holie in action of gouerning the Church, that is besides the worde: but the first is true, ergo, the second.

This Syllogisme is connexiue,Remon­strance. il fauouredly knit together: the sequell of the Antecedent must be distinguished. If you meane [Page 7] besides the worde, contrary or repugnant to the worde: no man will deny the consequence of the first: and then all this threede is euill spunne, it maketh nothing to the purpose: But if by Be­sides the worde, you vnderstand all comprehended vnder the gene­rall precepts thereof, you must begin to knit a newe demonstra­tion: else your whole discipline frame fals on your head. I there­fore retort your argument thus:

If euery creature vnder heauen [...],Retortion. be good, and not to be reiected, because it is sanctified by praier, and the worde, then much more [...], euery humaine creature or ordi­nance which commeth downe from heauen, which is often san­ctified by praier and the word: but the former is true, ergo the la­ter. And by consequence, euery deale of our Church discipline & pollicie is of God, vnto which you must submit, or else be rebels against God: for you cannot proue it repugnant to Gods word.

The 6. Demonstration.

All lawfull things are of faith. Rom. 14.23. v.Demonstra­tion.

All lawfull things of faith are warranted by the worde, ergo,

All lawfull things are warranted by the worde: and consequently, euery lawfull action in the gouernment of the Church.

The state of the question that you make, is:Remon­strance. Whether euery lawfull action be warranted by the worde: the right state of the question is, whether euery sere and singular action for Church externall pollicie, must be in so many letters expressed, or imme­diately to be gathered of the worde. You may not passe away thus in cloudes of generalitie.

To the Maior.

viz. All lawfull things are of faith.Falsification of the text by the Demon­strator. Maledicta glossa quae cor­rumpit textum. You corrupt the text: the text is: All that is not of faith is sinne, not all lawfull things are of faith, for all good artes and sciences be lawfull, but not of faith: for Heathens inuented and practised most of them. The Maior neither is true in the alle­gation, nor in the conuersion of the termes true, which in a de­monstration is requisite: for all faithfull things are lawful, not all lawfull things are faithfull. This poison is not worth a counter, you must runne a begging for a better Demonstration to the Counterpoysoner, whence this was borrowed.

To the Maior, Minor, and Conclusion.

The whole Syllogisme is faulty.

All lawfull things are of faith.

All lawfull things of faith are warranted in the worde, ergo

All lawfull things are warranted in the worde.

Transposition of termes makes no Syllogisme in direct conclu­ding moodes.

Nowe for the consequencie.

It is ab angulo ad baculum, from the corner to the staffe.

All lawfull things of faith are warrantable by the worde, ergo

All lawfull things are warrantable by the word.

The Demonstrator neuer learned this Logike.

Ab oratione secundùm quid sumpta cum determinatione ad oratio­nem sumptam simpliciter sine determinatione non valet argumētum.

The reason is all alike.

All fastes or daies of abstinence commanded by the Church, are good: ergo all fastes (yea vpon the Lordes day) are also good, whether commanded or not commanded.

The 7. Demonstration.

Either God hath left a prescript forme of gouernment nowe, or else he is lesse carefull vnder the Newe Testament then vnder the Olde:Demonstra­tion. But he is as carefull nowe, ergo.

This disiunctiue desperately setteth all out of tune.Remon­strance.

Either God hath made a prescript forme of gouernment, or he is a carelesse God: These men care not what they say: it ma­keth against themselues, whatsoeuer they say.

The assumption is presumption, by a tricke of Logike, to ac­cuse God of carelesnes.

To the Antecedent.

The Antecedent is most false, when both partes are false.

Either he hath prescribed (as they would haue described) or the diuine Maiestie is a carelesse God. O carelesse diuinitie.

When both partes of a Dilemma or disiunctiue are false, a bare negatiue might serue: but neither hath God giuen a prescript forme of accidentall or externall gouernment (as themselues with shame enough at last confesse) neither is he at any time a carelesse God.

Euery point of discipline is not disclosed in the lawe: euery particular case incident is not reckoned there: the lippes of the Priest must preserue knowledge, the breast of the High Priest [Page 9]keepe Vrim and Thumim, light and perfection of holinesse and knowledge. When a hard case riseth, resort must be to the high priest or Iudge in the land.Rom. 8. As for so much as is prescribed in the new law, or law of spirite of life, no prescription ought to bee made against it: where the word leaueth of for diuersitie of go­uernment, it leaueth all the rest to a Christian libertie, to the Christian magistracie, to the holy ministerie to keepe vs with­in awe.

But see now this argument reboundeth from the wall of your discipline vpon your faces.Retortion of the argument

Either God hath giuen a Christian libertie, and for the right vse there of the gifts of gouernment [...], 1. Cor. 12. by the per­petuall pledge and operation of his spirite, or else he tieth vs to the ceremoniall obseruances and policie of the law to be schoo­led vnder them. God is not tied vnto vs.

But God hath not by any prescript forme tied vs to that part of the law, neither doeth he suffer vs to be lawlesse. Ergo, he hath giuen vs the vse of Christian libertie, and the gifts of his spirit to his Church to be disciplined thereby in matters not contained in Scripture, els it were no gift to gouerne, if all were specificallie set downe.

Diuersities of graces, one spirite, diuersities of ministrations, one lord, diuersitie of operations, one God.

The difference is in the maner of dispensatiō, not in the things dispensed, and yet one and the same Christ, in no maner of pre­script gouernance to be accused of caring more, or of caring lesse for the gouernment of his Church vnder the Gospell, or vnder the law.

The 8. Demonstration.Demonstra­tion.

He that was as faithfull as Moses, left as cleare instruction for the gouern­ment of the Church: but Christ was as faithfull, ergo. Heb. 3.2.

To the Maior.

He that was as faithfull as Moses, Remon­strance. left as cleare instruction for doctrine of faith and maners: nay he left clearer.

To the Prosyllogisme,

But Moses gaue direction for euery particular: ergo, Absurditie of the Demon­strator. according to this your sence adde vnto this: but Moses from the Cherubin to the lowest pinne in the tabernacle: ergo, Christ from the [Page 10]Communion table to the sweeping of the Church: Moses left an heape of ceremonies, Ergo, Christ must bring in another heape of ceremonies: Moses made Iudicials, Ergo, Christ newe Iudicials: Moses ten commaundements of old: Ergo, Christ ten commandements of new. Aaron had an Ephod, or superhumerall, and girdle: ergo, euery thing must be proportioned in Christ, of whom Moses was a figure, or in Christians & their gouernment, of whom Moses was neither type nor figure: The better is not the shadow of the worse, but the worse of the better.

The 9. Demonstration.

If the word of God hath described sufficient ministeries and ministers for the building & ordering of the Church,Demonstra. Rom. 12.5, 6, 7. 1. Cor. 12.28. Eph 4.11. then is our assertion true: But it hath set downe sufficient for doctrine, exhortatiō, ouerseeing, distribution, &c. ergo,

This reasoning inferreth Fallaciam consequentis, Remon­strance. fallacie of the consequent, viz. à non distributis ad distributa.

To the Antecedent.

Albeit the word hath set downe sufficient ministers and mini­stration, yet is your assertion short of the trueth.

The Assumption bewraieth your fals dealing in the Antecedent. Although the word setteth downe different sortes and diuersi­ties of functions and duties, yet our Axiome and rule is,

Euery particular gift and qualitie maketh not a new setled of­fice in the Church of God. Except you will haue a seuerall officer also to shew mercic, Rom. 12. that so your selues need to shew none till you haue that office.

E diuersitate accidentiū non sequitur diuersitas subiectorum, but è contrar. subiectum est principium emanationis accidentium.

If the word &c. then is your assertion true (say you) Omne ve­rum vero consentaneum, euery trueth is agrecable to a trueth: but this is manifestly false, and vtterly vntrue that the word hath set downe the liuclie image or imaginarie face of your Church-dis­cipline, the counterfeit whereof you haue, or pretend to haue. This togither with the former, is vntrueth, disagreeing in it selfe, and iarring with the trueth. Let your owne reason march vpon you thus:

Either in those places you haue found,Absurditie of the Demon­strator. or in no place else can be found the foure states of Doctors and pastors, gouernors, and Deacons in vse perpetuall: but not in those places, which is the [Page 11]issue that we ioyne: and therefore to seeke in so many bookes that which you deeme to bee alreadie found, is a fond matter, and alreadie frustrate: or to seeke that neuer can be found, is an infinite matter, and better vnsought then found. Quicquid sine fine fit, aut infinitum est, aut frustra fit: vnlesse you doe as Inachus the good man that sought his daughter transformed into a Cowe.

sed quam non inuenit vsquam
Esse putat nusquam, atque animo peiora veretur.

The 10. Demonstration.

That gouernment which the Apostles taught and planted,Demonstra­tion. is expressed in the word: But the Apostles taught and planted pastours and teachers for in­struction, Elders for ouerseeing, Deacons for distributing: Ergo, a certaine forme is expressed in the word.

To the Maior.

Indefinita locutio restringenda est. Remon­strance. First, the Maior is ambigu­ous: that which the Apostles, &c. It is not expressed so precisely what all the Apostles taught and planted in the Church, but the summe & substance of it. Secondarily, the Maior is not conuersiue or reciprocall in euery parte, and therefore no demonstratiue proposition: viz. to say that which the Apostles taught, is expres­sed in the word, & that which is expressed in the word, the Apo­stles taught.

To the Minor.

Answer is: neither by writing nor by practise did they euer e­stablish an vniformitie of externall Church discipline, & that per­petually to hold. An instance is of your Laie and vnpreaching el­derships, being temporarie and liuing not of the Church, hauing imposition of hands, and interest of ordinatiō and censures, con­trarie to all Scripture and practise of antiquitie: Or Deaconship of women, neuer to bee continued for Apostolicall constitution, as your selues for the most part confesse.

Note, the apparence of this maner of reasoning,Retortion. retireth vpon your selues. That which the Apostles taught and planted, all, or that our Sauiour taught himselfe, is impossible to be expressed in the word: for the whole world cannot containe the bookes: but the Apostles & our Sauior conuerted many millions, taught ma­ny doctrines in particularitie of conference: the Apostles planted many churches in the dispersion: ergo, it is a matter of impossibili­tie to expres it so largely in the word. Or, that which is necessary [Page 12]to saluation is expressed in the word, That which is vnnecessarie, is silenced in the word. Puritans Idaea or fantasie, is not necessa­rie to saluation, for many millions of soules of Martyrs & others, haue bene saued without it. Ergo, it is not specifically expressed in the word.

The 11. Demonstration.

All lawfull action and office in the building of the Church,Demonstra­tion. is from heauen: but euery thing (in the ordinarie building of the Church) from heauen, is re­ueiled in the word. Ergo, euery lawfull office & action is reuealed in the word.

An eleuen men must lift a strawe in this 11. Demonstration: Remon­strance. needes you must confesse a flat Paralogisme in this. This is faultie both in forme and matter, or professe your selfe absurd.

The medius terminus is disposed secundum habitudinem nullius figurae, in no order either of moode or figure. By transposition of the partes which may neuer be allowed in a Demonstration: or this faire Demonstrator meaneth to conclude by an affirmatiue in the second figure.

To the Minor.

Whereas the Minor saith, euery thing from heauen with a de­cent Parenthesis, to salue an inconuenience (in the ordinarie buil­ding) is reueiled (as you vnderstand reueiled) in the word, It is vt­terly vntrue, whether you vnderstand matter of externall orders and circumstance, or for the proportionating of externall decen­cie of euery part and parcell: it is a matter of infinitie to find all determined particularly by the worde. But to beate their owne weapon about their owne pate, I make this Dilemma.

Euery office and action in our Church gouernment,Retortion. is either from heauen or from earth: if from earth, then all of that minde were earthly minded men from the primitiue Church downe­ward vnto vs, and from vs vpward vnto them, whereby fall into your condemnation all they whom you deeme to haue a­bused the same, or not vsed the same, sith it is cleare by Ecclesia­sticall historie, they for the most part vsed the same Church disci­pline which wee doe. If from heauen, how dare you withstand the same? It is hard to kicke agaynst the pricke: your contradi­ction cannot long stand agaynst it, least you perish in the same.

The 12. Demonstration.

If God continued in regard of the substance,Demonstra­tion. the Church administration [Page 13]as well as the things to be administred, then is the forme of discipline descri­bed in the worde: but the former is true: for priests, Pastours: for teaching Leuites or Doctors of the lawe, Teachers: for rulers of the Synagogue, El­ders: for Leuiticall lookers to the treasurie, Deacons: for Sanedrim, the El­dership. Ergo,

This Demonstration is Demonstratio à causa remota: Remon­strance. a demon­strate seldome vsed: the resolution or Analysis is this:

If God from all succeeding ages continued as well the forme as the matter, in respect of the substance, then &c.

To the Antecedent.

This phrase of speach (in respect of the substance) emplyeth a contradiction to the sequele of the Antecedent: for it com­meth to this summe. If God hath continued the whole disci­pline in respect of the essentiall partes of discipline, then is the frame of accidentall pointes of discipline and externall pollicie of the Church continued therewith: which Antecedent with the consequence is starke naught. As if a man did reason thus, hee might reason also as well:Absurditie. If God hath continued (in regard of the substance) the propagation of Adams posteritie by endu­ing man with an humaine bodie, and infusing into man a reaso­nable soule, then hath he endued all men alike with semblable endowment of bodie and soule: As if God did garnish euerie man alike with reason and religion in the intellectuall soule, or complexionate alike the naturall bodie which is vnited to the soule. Nothing so like as man vnto God: for he made man to the likenesse of himselfe: nothing so dislike as man vnto man: man in honor vnderstood not, but became like to the brute beast,Psal. 49. and yet in regard of the substance, God continueth the vnchangea­ble tenor of the race of man.

To the Assumption.

The assumption beggerlie beggeth that which is in question, drawing a proportion of that which is not.

Non entis nullae qualitates.

Where can you euer prooue the correspondence, or one word of Scripture for the maintenance of this, videlicet, That Pastor answereth vnto priest, sith with you pastorall charge is exhor­tation? Or Doctor of the lawe, or teaching Leuite for one of your Doctors, which is a bare teacher vsing explication, and re­fusing application, or a simple catechiste, whereas Saint Paul [Page 14]doctor gentium was a full minister? Or for Leuiticall lookers to the treasurie, Deacons, because they looke to finger treasure? you will make it a corporall office, but wee withall, some ministerie about the word, [...], as amongst the Apostles after the expiration of that seruice at Ierusalem, the primitiue Deacons did? Or for Iewish [...] rulers of the Synagogue, Elders to come in place, sith that was a canker of corruption that crept in amongest them?

Or for Sanedrim, Eldership, sith no man can exactly number the time when it first came in? Sith it was a deprauation of a bet­ter thing, but dealing with all ciuill causes: sith that was no holy nor sacred pres byterie, which we doe holde all our Synodes and solemne Conuocations to be.

The Idaea of this discipline is a hote Meteor inuisible, not han­ging in any region of the aire: The difference of this Sanedrim from the olde is, [...]: the imagination vpon this, is: Dia­metri ad latus, incommensurable proportion: the Identitie is a contrarietie in sight: the vse of this discipline is a nullitie in deede.

But thus we retort the argument vpon them.

If God continued in regarde of the substance,Retortion. the church ad­ministration vnder the Gospell, which was vnder the lawe, then are there degrees of superioritie and authoritie in persons ecclesiasticall one ouer another: for the priestes were aboue the Leuites, and the high priests aboue all the priests of that nation, in so much as he that willfullie disobeied his iudgement, was to die the death.

But our Demonstrationer and his customer of whom he bo­rowes it, say (vpon their credites) the former is true: ergo,

Superioritie in the state ecclesiasticall, is continued by God vnder the Gospell, and therefore not to be discontinued as Anti­christian.

The 13. Demonstration.

Euerie wise king that is carefull for his subiects,Demonstra­tion. setteth downe lawes: but Christ is a wise king: ergo, a certaine forme of gouernment.

The second demonstration was of an householder,Remon­strance. this is the 13. of a king: this is to parabolize, not to demonstrate.

You cannot hence draw a consequence, but inconsequentlie conclude, because Christ is a king, Ergo, hee is bound to set downe expresse lawes for euery indiuiduall point of gouerne­ment that may happen: for no wise king doeth so, especiallie where the whole pollicie which is by him continued, is set downe afore, as you beare vs in hand in your 12. Demonstrati­on, that the whole substance of the pollicie vnder the law, is con­tinued vnder the Gospell. True it is for the inward and spiritu­all worship, all is described in the worde, and prescribed vnto vs. As for euery externall matter of dependaunce, it ought rightly to be deduced from the word, and reduced to the touch­stone of the worde againe, regard being had to the seuerall cir­cumstances of time, persons, &c. Me thinkes if you would haue framed an argument, the consequence should bee thus. Euerie wise king is carefull, &c. Ergo, he barreth all wranglers to make false constructions and collections of his lawes: But Christ is an euerlasting king, and hath an euerlasting trueth concluded in the tables of his lawes: Ergo, none of his subiectes may call that lawe which is not lawe, nor of the volume and bodie of his lawe: or call that sole and an eternall trueth, which is a sole and eternall lie, as your formall gouernement, partie-coloured coate of Laitie and Clergie, linsey wolsey discipline, or vncer­taine forme of gouernment.

The 14. Demonstration.

That which the Ministers must teach the people to obserue,Demonstra­tion. is set downe in the word.

But they are to teach obedience to the particular forme of gouernment:Math. 28.20. Ergo, the particular forme is set downe.

To the Maior.

The Maior is vndemonstrable, not reciprocall, most false.Remon­strance. The Ministers need not teach all that is set downe:

Which is the conuersiue of the Maior. An instance is, Instan­tia soluit argumentum.

Many things in Moses lawe, as to abstaine from bloud, are not of necessitie to be taught to bee obserued, which neuerthe­lesse are distinctly set downe.

The error hereof resteth in the ambiguitie of this word, set downe, [Page 16]whether particularly or generally set downe be vnderstood.

Ministers are to teach obedience to the particular forme of gouernement, and lawes ciuill of any lawfull common wealth: Ergo, all ciuill lawes are particularlie set downe in the Scripture.

To the Minor.

The Minor proceedeth of Supposall.

Ex suppositione sequitur quidlibet.

Supposing that gouernment of necessitie to bind vs, they must necessarilie teach it vs:

Supposing that our Sauiour Iesus when he sayd 28. Math. 20. ver. Absurditie of the Demon­strator. Goe [...], Teach and make disciples, baptizing and tea­ching them to obserue all, [...], that I haue commaunded you, &c. did commaund their discipline: It will easilie follow, as if he did preposterously commaund a faithfull conuersation before con­uersion to the faith: or as if [...] alludeth onely vnto discipline, & not respectiuelie looketh to the whole summe of Christianitie which the Apostles were to teach: so they may dallie for their discipline with any place. You know the old prouerbe, Abegger is neuer out of his way. Eckius to prooue transubstantiation, allea­geth: Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie: These men to turne doctrine into discipline, all into gouernment, euerie way is an high way: euery coniecture is an inuincible demonstration to shewe and present vs with the face or maske of disguised dis­cipline.

The 15. Demonstration.

Euery gouernment consisteth in the matter and maner.Demonstra­tion.

But in the word is described the particularitie of both, as in the 9. Demon­stration. Ergo, the word hath prescribed a prescript gouernment.

Here is a conclusion in 2. figura affirmatiuè, Remon­strance. and by a leape from described to prescribed, quatuor termini.

To the Maior.

Things coincident are considerable together.

All gouernment consisteth not in the matter and maner one­ly, but in the efficient and finall causes also, As God the author and beginning in Christ, and the glory of God, which is the scope or latter end.

To the Minor.

The Minor is very false: but to retort it.

If both matter and manner be described, then what neede your variable Synodicall discipline, or any moe orders at all, as the Barrowists contend, and you would seeme to oppugne?

The 16. Demonstration.

Cyprian saith,Demonstra­tion. Sermone de baptismo Christi. From Scripture, rules of all do­ctrine haue sprung, and hither doth returne whatsoeuer the Ecclesiasticall discipline doeth conteine.

The wordes of Cyprian are.Remon­strance. De bapt. Christi, & manifest. Trinit. Legat hoc verbum, & in hoc manda­to meditetur Christiana religio, & inueniet omnium doctrinarum re­gulas ex hac Scriptura emanasse, & hinc nasci, & huc reuerti quic­quid Ecclesiastica continet disciplina, & in omnibus irritum esse & fri­uolum, quicquid dilectio non confirmat.

Cyprian speaketh of loue and charitie, he treateth not there of an Ecclesiasticall pollicie, but thereby meaneth onely the do­ctrine of the Church, which is recapitulated in loue: which chapter being very briefe of one word, I would our Discipliners had once read ouer.

Cyprian right well did skill of Christian discipline, viz. a rule of doctrine, which is another manner thing then this fansied dis­cipline of Church-frame, which you pretend to haue: being a salte discipline, not the salte of discipline, which Cyprian woulde haue.

Te docente ad siccandas corruptionum mearum putredines prodesse cauterium, Sermone de bapt. Christi. & mundare cicatrices veteres salem disciplinae tuae E­uangelio tuo medente infusum.

God being the Doctor or heauenly doctrine, is of as great a­uaile, as a burning yron to seare vp the rottennes of putrified flesh: the salte of discipline sprinkled vpon vs out of the diuine Gospell, doeth mundifie olde sores, and purge and heale them cleane. In both which places you see, that which he first called doctrine, he after [...] calleth discipline.

Therefore this salte of discipline, might very well serue to mundifie and heale the wound of charity, which you haue made: Luculentam plagam declarat cicatrix: 2. Philip. the scarre whereof in the forehead of our Church doeth manifestly appeare.

But I perceaue the Demonstrator for all his bragge, is but a so­rie reader of Cyprian, or had his allegation gathered to his hand, and neuer had the leasure to reade ouer Cyprian.

The 17. Demonstration.

We may not giue our selues the libertie to bring in any thing that other men bring of their will:Demonstra­tion. we haue the Apostles for authors, who themselues brought nothing of their owne will: But the discipline which they receaued of Christ,Tertul. de prae­script. adu. haere. they deliuered faithfully to the people.

I take your meaning,Remon­strance. and not your wordes.

Your quotation is of Cyprian, but your meaning of Tertullian, who hath such like wordes: Nobis ex arbitrio nostro indulgere ni­hil licet, speaking against the doctrine of men and deuils: vt aeo­nes & formas nescio quas, & trinitatem hominis apud Valentinum: as the Commentator vpon Tertullian, doeth obserue.

Tertullian directeth those wordes against Marcion, and Apel­les, and others.

Tertullian saith, we may not giue our selues libertie, neither a­bridge others of their Christian libertie. Tertullian is not contrary to Tertullian: else where he requireth consanguinitatem doctrinae, consanguinitie of doctrine, from Christ and his Apostles downe­ward: so that it is plaine to him that weieth the place, he meant of doctrine. If he had meant it of the pollicie and outward go­uernment of the Church, it maketh not against ours, which for the substance of it we are readie to auerre to be grounded of the worde, and taught by the Apostles, and reteined euer since in the Church, theirs being neuer heard of, till about 50. yeeres agoe it was set vp in one towne, being a popular state.

The 18. Demonstration.

It is adulterous,Demonstra­tion. it is sacrilegious, whatsoeuer is ordeined by humane furie, that the diuine disposition should be violated.

Cyprian speaketh of Heretikes,Remon­strance. and of Schismatikes, who de­parted from the Church, as our Puritanes doe from the vnitie of the godlie proceedings, established in the Church: against Foe­licianus, and the fiue Priestes. Nunc apparet Foeliciani factio vnde est, quibus viribus, quibus radicibus staret: hij fomenta quibusdam confessoribus & hortamenta tribuebant, ne concordarent cum Episco­po suo, nec Ecclesiasticam disciplinam cum fide & quiete iuxta prae­cepta Domini continerent, vt relictis Domini sacerdotibus contra E­uangelicam disciplinam, noua traditio sacrilegae institutionis exurgat.

Note whether these wordes of Cyprian concerne not our times.

Nowe it is cleare whence T. C. his faction ariseth, howe it tooke rooting, howe it is hardened. He and his crue haue with­drawne certaine, who of good zeale professe the name of Christ, from the loue and obedience of their Superior or Pastor, or Bi­shop, and haue dangerously drawne them into contempt of Ec­clesiasticall discipline to breake from the faith and allegeance of the Lordes precepts, that by forsaking of the Lorde his Priestes, contrarie to the Euangelicall discipline, they might begin a newe platforme of sacrilegious institution of their own discipline. Ob­serue last of all that Ecclesiasticall discipline, Euangelicall disci­pline, which S. Cyprian soundeth farre otherwise then the newe Tetrarchie of Doctors, Pastors, Elders, and Deacons discipline: for it is taken for the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles.

Yet here of by the way we gather, that such as breake foorth from the Bishops gouernment and censures (as our schismatikes doe with greatest contempt that may be) doe offend against the commandements and the doctrine or discipline of the Gospell: and therefore a superioritie of Bishops is a diuine institution, by Cyprians iudgement, who liued not very long after the Apostles times.

I might answere, Allegare non est probare. Allegation is no de­monstration, least of all of humane authoritie. And all this may be granted, and nothing gained to the cause. Dominus Demon­strator doeth passe away in cloudes of generalitie, and con­cludeth not the question. So that in steede of 18. de­monstrations, there are 18. monsters, some without head, some without taile, some without middle, others without arme, all without harme, not able to affright the veriest foole that is, with so much as a false feare of loo­sing the impregnable fort of the trueth of our cause. *⁎*

CAPVT SECVNDVM.

IN the second chapter followe certaine Max­imes of their own, or certaine Oracles of one T. C. tanquam ex tripode: which if you will not take vpon T.C. his credite, you may take it vp­on the credite of 20. letters, or take vnto you the whole Alphabet, to make demonstrations thereby.

The 1. Proposition.

No calling is lawfull, but which is directly warranted out of the worde, to him that executeth it.Demonstra­tion.

The 2. Proposition.

The name and office of an Archbishop is contrarie to the worde of God.

The 3. Proposition.

No man may be ordeined to an office, vntill a place be voide as he is fit for.

Euery one of these propositions hath a speciall aime to the v­suall intended markes of a cauilling Sophister.Remon­strance.

The 1. is.

[...] or meere trifling,Aristot de re­prehens, Soph. as Aristotle saith, [...].

Like as a Cuckow to sing alwaies one song: as in the former Chapter the Demonstrator trifleth vp and downe.

The 2. is.

[...], a false or starke staring lie, [...], to make a demonstration of a lie.

The 3. is.

[...], a meere Paradoxe, which neuer any but of this newe fantasie said before.

The saying is, A three twisted corde will not easily breake a­sunder: but this thrise twisted cable knappeth asunder.

If the Demonstrator will onely propound, we may lawfully returne these propositions home againe.

1.

No calling is lawfull, but directly warranted to him that exe­cuteth it.

All lay Presbyteri, or vnpreaching eldership, with the authori­tie they attribute vnto it, is vnwarranted directly by Gods worde [Page 21]to them that doe execute it: Ergo

No such calling is lawfull.

2.

No name of Superioritie for order and [...] in the Church, is contrary to the worde: The name and office of Archbyshop, Archdeacon, Deanes, are such names and offices of Superioritie: Ergo No names and offices of Archbyshop & Archdeacon, &c. are contrary to the worde.

3.

Paul, Barnabas, Epaphroditus, Andronicus, Iunius and others, were not forth with limited to a certaine place: But Paul, Barna­bas, Philip, &c. were ordeined Ministers. Ergo,

Certaine were ordeined Ministers not limitted to a place.

The 1. Demonstration, which is a reason of this 1. redoubted Proposition.

If Iohn were constrained to prooue his ministerie out of the worde when the Priestes accused him,Demonstra­tion. Then there is no lawfull calling but warran­ted in the worde: but he prooued his calling: Ergo no calling lawfull, but which is warranted in the worde.

To the Antecedent.

This fallacie is, [...] of the consequent:Remon­strance. The sequele of the Antecedent is to be denyed, which is in plainer termes this, vz. There is no calling in the newe, but is first warranted by some prophecie of the olde Testament.

To the Assumption.

But he prooued his ministerie.

Whether he prooued or did not prooue: whether he were accu­sed or not accused, the ministerie of Iohn was a lawful ministerie, their impeachment there of was not to hinder the execution of his ministerie: The warrant rather is the immediate commission from heauen, and the prophecie that went of him to exercise his ministerie. Howe followeth the Argument, à facto adius? Or from their constraint, to the warrantize of his calling? If any proofe should be drawen for or against, it can bee other in con­sequence then this.

One extraordinarie Minister did vpon occasion of those that cauilled at him prooue his extraordinarie calling out of the [Page 22]worde of God: Then euery ordinarie Minister may against wranglers prooue his ordinarie ministerie out of the worde to be the ordinance of God, Euen so doe we.

Or this.

Iohannes confessus est & non negauit: Iohn 1.20. Iohn did confesse and de­nyed not, confessed who he was and denied not who hee was: Euen so in humilitie we ought to doe, and semblably doe.

Vnlesse it please you to argue after this sort out of the text: These things were done in Bethany or Bethabara beyond Iordan, or Iohn proued his ministerie in Bethany or Bethabara beyonde Iordan: Ergo your ministerie must be proued in Bethany be­yond Iordan: O then your reason hath a further fetch beyond or on the other side of Iericho or Iordan.

Or else better after this sort.

Iohn exercised his ministerie and proued it too, without war­rantie of an outwarde calling of any that sate in Moses chaire: for the people helde him for a Prophet. Ergo you haue an exercise of your ministerie without an outwarde calling, and may runne before you are sent, and the people holde your pro­phecie and baptisme to be true: But this will sauour strongly of Anabaptisme I trowe.

The 2. Demonstration.

The callings vnder the Gospel must haue as good warrant as the callings vnder the Law:Demonstra­tion. But all callings vnder the Lawe (except miraculous) had di­rect warrant. Ergo.

Ridetur chorda qui semper oberrat eadem: Remon­strance. A bad harper harpeth alwayes on one string.

My answere is as vnto the 7. & 8. Demonstrations. 1. Cap.

Or I answere with concession because it is nothing to the question, and therefore your fight is with no body, but with the foolish feare of your owne shadowe.

Or I answere by distinction thus.

Direct warrantie is either immediate from the voyce of God, or which is mediate by direct consequencie gathered out of the worde of God: Such is any calling in the Church of England, by what name soeuer it be named, deducible from the worde of God.

The 3. Demonstration.

If Corah, Dathan and Abyram were punished hauing no warrant of that they tooke in hand,Demonstration. then is euery calling generally warranted out of the worde and particularly layde vpon the parties.

But the first is true, Ergo the second.Nomb. 16.

This is well concluded: Your consequence of the Maior no way followeth,Remon­strance. except the want of warrantize had bene the on­ly cause of their punishment.

You confesse a trueth before you are aware in the Minor, your owne feters shall serue for your owne feete.

If Corah, Dathan and Abyram were swallowed vp aliue for in­surrection against Moses and Aaron the high Priest,Retortion. for ambiti­ous seeking to be all high Priestes, not contented with the mi­nisterie of the Tabernacle as inferiour Leuites, and for scismatical assertion, Is not the whole Congregation holy? Hij omnes sunt sancti: are not all these holy, that is sanctified to the Lord,Num. 16.3. both intruding into the office, and obtruding to the people the office of the high Priest at that time: Must not the scismatikes of our time, whose contradiction is the same, perish also in the same contradiction? Pares culpa, pares paena: like fault, like punish­ment without the mercie of God. But the Antecedent is true, Ergo, the consequent is together true: For these doe the very same against those who are set ouer them in the Lorde.

Plus satis arrogatis vobis: Inter eos est Iehoua: quare ergo effertis vos super Congregationem Iehouae?

You take too much vpon you, amongst them is the Lord: Is not all the Congregation holy? Why doe you aduance your selues aboue the Congregation of the Lorde? Are not all holy? all Ministers alike? and ministeries? Is not the laytie a holy pres­byterie to the Lord? Are not the Congregation interessed in the gouernment of the Church?

Nemo de vobis vnus excellat:
Omnem exuperantiam virtutis oderunt.
Tusc. quest. lib. 5.

Euery of vs is as good as other. These be as the voyces of old scismatikes were.

The 4. Demonstration.

That which giueth cōfort in trouble, must haue a warrāt out of Gods word:Demonstra­tion. [Page 24]But euery lawfull calling doeth so. Ergo.

The Argument lyeth at Cowards warde.Remon­strance.

We denie not but that all lawful callings haue warrant of Gods worde, but not particularly or totidem verbis: For where findeth he a Master of an Hospitall, a Printer, a Cartwright, a Salte-peter man, a shirte-maker, a gunne-maker, an Attorney in all Scrip­ture?

Ante diem clauso componet vesper Olimpo.

From morning vnto night: Stans pede in vno, you may demon­strate thus.

The 5. Demonstration.

That which helpeth forwarde in godlinesse,Demonstra­tion. must haue a warrant out of Gods worde: But euery lawfull calling helpeth forward in godlines. Ergo.

These and such other like Arguments,Remon­strance. are like to the Islands in Archipelago, [...], lying in the middle way to be surpri­sed of any man: or as the prouince of Iewry and Syria: where of Tullie saith, Iudaei et Syri ad seruitutem nati, De prouin. con­sul. bound to serue all turnes, and pay tribute vnto all who will make them tributarie.

Wastewordes of the Demonstrator.

They confesse all this to bee true,Demonstra­tion. but denie the Archbyshop and LL. B B. &c. to be distinct Ministers: which we holde to be distinguished, and by sixe Demonstrations doe prooue it, first thus.

The 1. Demonstration.

Those things which haue diuerse efficient causes,Demonstra­tion. are diuerse: Our L L. B B. and the Ministers of the worde haue diuerse efficient causes, the one the ordinance of God, the other of humane policie. Ergo.

Wee holde their ministerie of the worde to be as others,Remon­strance. and there in equall, but for order and policie of the Church, a Superi­oritie in gouernement, censures, and ordinations, in which respect they are B B. So much Beza and Caluin also confesse in effect, speaking of Patriarkes, Archbyshops and Byshops in the Pri­matiue Church.

To the Maior.

This must be true in naturall, or in artificiall and ciuill things, or true in neither: For some things haue diuerse efficients, and are the same things: other are diuerse thinges, and haue the same efficient. Ergo. It is true in neither.

The braine of an Anabaptist and the braine of an asse haue one efficient, and yet are diuerse things.

Sol et homo generant hominem: Sol et asinus generant asinum. vnlesse you make an Anabaptist the foale of an asse.

The soule of Nouatus and the soule of T.C. haue but one crea­tor, and yet are indiuiduated and diuers things: vnlesse you holde [...] transmigration into T.C. of Nouatus soule.

Againe, if wee might beleeue your selues, Moses made the Sanedrim of olde, or authorised it: Christ in your eldership made or authorised the Sanedrim of the new according to your selues: These are diuerse efficients, yet but one thing.

The egge of this byrds laying, and of another byrds hatching, hath diuers efficients, but yet is one chicke.

Diuersities of efficient church wrights and reformers of the state, belike must needes breede diuersitie of reformation of the state, and diuerse communion bookes, as fell out within two yeeres experience thrise diuersely: your Presbyteries, your Clas­sies, and your Synodes, seuerally may make or ordeine ministers, and these be diuerse assemblies: ergo, their ministeries be di­uers, that so diuersly be ordeined and called of them.

The Minor cannot passe, it is passing naught: viz. our BB. and the ministers haue diuerse efficients, as themselues doe con­fesse. Who euer of vs did confesse the BB. to be a mere humane constitution? Therefore let this lie. As for the worde and title of Lorde (in which limitation, they thinke a great aduantage lur­keth) it is but per accidens, as they haue Baronries. If it were o­therwise, why not titles of honour due to them, if honour bee due? The efficient of BB. in respect they are ministers, is God: as BB. properlie, is also God: Omnis potestas a Deo. For admit all their authoritie or names were not specifically expressed, shall not their power therefore be of God? els where be the foure Syn­dicts of Geneuaes authoritie? For there is no such office named particularly in scripture. See the 304. page of the defence of the answere to the admonition, whose plaine distinction is: That great is the oddes, to be ordeyned of Christ for externall policie of the Church, and to bee constituted for mere humaine policie. Ʋide Sarau. lib. 1. de diuersis grad. minist.

This conclusion therefore driueth the dust and winde of their [Page 26]folly into their owne eyes.

God and christian policie ordeyneth all ministers,

Ergo, all ministers haue the same efficient.

Or, God and christian policie ordeyneth all ministers.

God and christian policy are not diuerse efficients, (as this di­uerse man doeth dreame) but subordinate: for all christian poli­cy is the good gift of God, and therefore no efficient absolute of it selfe, but effected by God.

The 2. Demonstration.

A diuerse forme maketh diuerse things:Demon­stration. ministers of the word and the LL. BB. haue diuerse formes, as their ordinacion, sith one L.B. may ordeine a minister, but there must be three to ordeine one of them: Ergo,

To the Maior.

Whether you meane accidentall forme or substanciall,Remon­strance. it is not euer true, viz. diuerse formes make diuers things: you know the olde sayde saw, Ouorum inter se similitudo. Nothing so like as an egge to an egge: Nothing so like as Hypocrates two twinnes: which (in specie) were not different things, yet the one was not the other.

Againe, diuerse formes are in any thing: as Trigonus in Tetra­gono, the one included in the other: or where the one is ordeyned for the complement and perfection of the other:2. physic. Homo prius vi­uit vitam plantae, deinde bruti, postremò hominis.

To the Minor.

The ministers and the LL. BB. haue one essentiall forme in their ordinacion to the ministerie, as in giuing them the ministe­riall charge of the word & the administration of the sacraments, which is his commission for the ministery. The forme is all one: the consecration of a B. which is a commission for superiour au­thoritie in ordinacions and iurisdictions, with the censures, or whatsoeuer else is annexed thereunto, is neuer a deale the more for the presence of three, any newe or straunge ordiancion of a ministery. For accidens non mutat speciem subiecti: yet is it such, as if we read al the old fathers, counsels, and other antiquitie, (who were like to know best in what sort the apostles planted & esta­blished churches) ye shal neuer find aboue one B. required at the ordination of any presbyter a priest or minister: but 2. BB. at least, and the Metropolitane at the consecration of a B. according to [Page 27]which number, our booke of ordination in that behalfe was framed, & it may be gathered from the like ordination of Paul and Barnabas in the thirteenth of the Acts: the one of which was an apostle, the other vir apostolicus before: from which ex­ample, I reason thus:

Either this new ordination of Paul by the prophets and doctors of Antioch gaue him a new and diuerse ministerie from his for­mer, so that he continued not an Apostle still: or else by this ac­cession no such alteration is made.

But he continued an apostle still, ergo, by this accession of ordination or function no such diuersitie was made. And conse­quently, an accession of function or authoritie vnto our BB. by their consecration, maketh them not cease to be ministers of the worde still, which is contradictorie to their maior, and therefore that vntrue. But to pommell them about the pates with their owne swordes, thus againe I may reason.

A diuerse forme maketh diuerse things:

Ministers and Elders in a church not yet established, must bee chosen and ordeyned by the whole church: but in a church established, by the presbitery alone, (as their owne platformers describe) which two bee diuers formes and diuerse members of ordeiners: ergo, they who be chosen and ordeyned af­ter the first manner, haue a diuerse ministery and eldershippe from such as be of the latter making: and consequently, the first being of another kinde, cannot choose or ordeine any of the second sort, and so shall their newe discipline be nipped in the head, and stand after possibilitie of issue extinct. Or thus:

A diuerse forme maketh diuerse things.

All our new discipliners (sauing the church of Scotland which thinketh it a needelesse abrogated ceremony) in ordination of elders doe necessarily require and vse imposition of hands: ergo the ministers of Scotland haue a seuerall function and ministery from all reformed churches besides.

Or reason for your selues, and reason thus:

Mixt formes put together make either no thing (quia species cum specie non copulatur &c.) or a mingle mangle,Retortion of their argu­ment. erratum naturae a monstruous thing.

The newe manner and guise of ordination by combining [Page 28]laitie and clergie, is not actus purus, but a compound and mixt forme: ergo, such ordination by the imposing of handes of laitie and clergie, maketh their ministerie either a nullitie, or a monstruous thing.

The 3. Demonstration.

Members of one diuision are distinct one from another.Demonstra­tion.

The L.BB. and ordinarie ministers are members of one diuision: for the ministers are diuided into the Rulers and ruled: Ergo,

To the Maior.

The axiome is,Remon­strance. Membra vnius diuisionis contra distinguuntur de se inuicem non predicantur, are not verifiable one of another. As a man is not an horse, prudence is not fortitude, fortitude is not prudence: howbeit, they are concident in vno subiecto, as temperance and prudence in one Scipio. Secondarily, conueni­unt in aliquo superiori, meete and concurre in one generall or vni­uersall, a man and beast in one liuing creature. This is T.C. ouer­sight. See the defense of the answere to the admonition: 203. pa.

To the Minor.

The Minor we distinguish.

The Ministers are not oppositiuely distinguished, but rela­tiuely. Or, the diuision is of the common of more, into the com­mon of the lesse. They are not of diuers predicaments.

The argument to be framed is thus.

Euery B. is not an inferiour minister: ergo, euery inferiour minister is not a B. in or out of his parish: viz. a parish B. which these men craue.

The fallacie is [...].Absurditie of the Demon­strator. It is absurd to argue thus: The BB. and other inferiour ministers are according to superioritie and inferiority of order distinct: ergo, altogether and in euery re­spect distinct. Or, [...] (the worde that importeth ministers as­wel as deacons) or ministers are diuided into BB. and priests: ergo BB. are not priests. Or thus: Their officers ecclesiasticall are di­uided into pastores, doctores, presbyteros, et diaconos: ergo, Pastores non sunt presbyteri, et per consequens non sunt de presbyterio: Pa­stours are none Elders, and therefore are not of the Eldership.

The 4. Demonstration.

The thing that haue diuerse effects, are diuers in themselues one from a­nother:Demon­stration. The LL.BB. and other ministers haue diuerse effects. The one ef­fecteth gouernment, the other subiection. Ergo,

To the Maior.

What a confident Demonstration call you this? An 100.Remon­strance. In­stances to one thing.

Eaedem causae sunt interimentes quae efficientes.

Contrarie effects yssue out of one cause or thing. God maketh the wound, and healeth, Iob 4. Vna eaedemque manus vulnus o­pemque tulit. The sunne melteth waxe, & indurateth clay, which are contrary effects and diuerse things.

To the Minor.

The Argument is builded vpon the sande of ignoration Elen­chi: The answere is, The LL.BB. and ministers doe neither af­fect nor effect, secundum idem, ad idem, simpliciter, & eodem tempore diuerse things. The one in his Parish, the other in his Diocesse, both are rulers as farre as Lawe giueth leaue, the one hath more commaund, the other lesse. Magis & minus non variat speciem: More or lesse gouernement make no opposition of gouernment. Obediant (saith Ignatius) Laici Diaconis, Diaconi Presbyteris, Ignat. Epi. 7. ad Smirn. Pres­byteri Eppiscopo, Episcopus Christo, sicut ipse patri. The subiection of the one is the fayre degree of gouernment for the other: The Lord Maior and the Aldermen of seuerall Wardes, the one effe­cteth rule, the other obedience, both respect order: These are ad­uerse in a regarde, not contrary things.

Me thinketh some amongst you should reason for you thus:

They who affect tyrannie ouer al,Retortion. and they who effect obedi­ence vnto none, are diuerse in them selues, and contrary vnto all: But the Seigniorie or Presbyterie, affecteth an ambition and rule ouer all persons, and ouer all matters, as in the learned discourse their wordes doe assertiuely importe: Ergo, the Seigniorie is contrary vnto all, and concording with none: and therefore, as they of the Concision then amongst the olde Iewes, so they of the Precision, (who in this are as bad as Iewes) are at variance with all, and agreement with none: But as Ismaels hand against euery man, so euery mans hand against Ismael.

The 5. Demonstration.

They who are employed about diuers things, are diuers one from another:Demonstra­tion. The LL.BB. and ordinarie Ministers are so. Ergo, For the one hath the viewe of many Congregations, the other the direction of one par­ticular.

To the Maior.

Adignorationem elenchi reduci possunt omnes elenchi, Remon­strance. & paralo­gisimi, sayth Aristotle: This fallacious stone is digged out of the former quarrie.

Those which are employed about diuerse things, are diuerse for time of employment, not diuerse in office and nature.

One mortall King hath two Ambassadors in diuers regions, their Commission is alike, both Ambassadors. Or, one immortall King hath two Apostles, one for the circumcision or dispersion of the Iewes, another for the gathering and conuersion of the Gen­tiles: And yet but one Apostleship,2. Cor. 5. and Ambassage for faith in Christ. Legatione pro Christo fungimur.

To the Minor.

The Minor is not precisely true: the Byshops haue no such care of all, that therefore they doe no good to any particular Church, sith their sea must be there: But as S. Paul hauing care of all, and for all Congregations, be doing good in one, As the soule and life is distributed into all and euery part. Anima est in toto, & totum in qualibet parte.

The ordinarie Minister hath direction of one Congregation, sayth the Demonstrator, Ergo the same Minister hath go­uernment of one or of fewe, so many as are within the charge of that Congregation.

This is a contradiction sith many and few are alwayes in rela­tion.Contradicti­on to your selues. Oportet mendacem esse memorem: A lyar must be mindeful of the beginning of his tale: This maner of Demonstration is called [...].

But you say:Retortion. They which are employed about diuers things, are diuerse.

The Martinists raile, & the Puritanes would pul down Cathe­dral Churches, certaine of them would take ye paines to pul down al Churches: These are employments about diuers things, and yet you & the Martinists are loth to be accounted scarse diuers kinde of men.

The 6. Demonstration.

That which is perpetual,Demonstra­tion. & that which may be taken away by men, are di­stinct things: The office of the Minister is perpetual, & the BB. may be taken away, as themselues confesse, Ergo they are distinct the one from the other.

To the Maior.

The Maior is false, if you meane distinct, re & subiecto as ye schole­men [Page 31]say: as for distinct ratione, in cōsideration, we wil easely grant.

The prince of Philosophers sayth, Corruptibile & incorruptibi­le differunt plusquam genere. But what your meaning is of di­stinct, I can not attaine: whether that which is alway and euery way distinct, or no way distinct, or how many wayes: Distinguish it, that we may haue yssue of the question. The body & soule, the one is corruptible, the other incorruptible, distinctly considera­ble, are vnum subiecto, one thing: Anima in coniuncto.

To the Minor.

You take this pro confesso: But you often mistake, as a childe would doe a counter for golde, or as fooles often doe, chalke for cheese. He that reporteth a slanderous tale, if he cannot produce his Authour, must father it himselfe. We alwayes allowe of the perpetuitie of the office, & that it may not be done away, though there be no doubt, but some accidents thereof may lawfully (yet perhappes none conueniently) be changed.

If the gouerning Ministers be perpetual, the gouernment and ministrations are perpetuall also. He that ministreth, in the mini­sterie, He that gouerneth, in his gouernement. Rom. 12.

I propounde this Dilemma: Retortion. Either all Ministers are perpe­tuall, or all temporall, or some temporall and some perpe­tuall. All Ministers temporall, you wil not say for shame, as you make your Elders for a yeere or two, and so temporarie if not temporall: To auerre all perpetuall, is to gainesay your selues. If you say and vnsay, some of these Ephes. 4. are perpetuall, and o­thers are not: Shewe by plaine Demonstration which are, and which are not, or by the cleare light of any collection out of any other place produce your Tetrarchy, as it were the halfe face of Ʋenus painted by Apelles, or as it were another with two faces, your Doctor and Pastor, your Elder and Deacon, the one before, the other behinde: or else with shame and confusion couer your face.

The 2. Proposition.

  • 1. The name and office of the Archbyshop is contrary to the worde.
    Demonstra­tion.
  • 2. The name of the Archbyshop is vnlawfull to giue to any man in the Church of God.

The 1. Demonstration.

No man may haue that name giuen to him which is proper to our Sauiour [Page 32]Iesu Christ:Heb. 12.2. & 13. chap. 20.1. pet. 5.4. Acts. 3.15. & 5.31. But the name of Archbyshop is proper to him. Ergo.

To the Maior.

By proper you meane appropriate vnto the essence of God and Christ,Remon­strance. and that is an ineffable name, which is Iehoua: Name of es­sence as the Hebrewes doe expound, who can tell his name, or who can tell his sonnes name? The name of his office the Angel could foretell: They shal call his name Iesus. Generationem eius quis enarrabit? Absurditie. This is a proper maner of reasoning: No man can designe or assigne the name essentiall vnto Christ. Ergo, None can giue to any man the name of the offices and honours in a secondarie respect.

To the Minor.

You say the name of Archbyshop is proper vnto Christ by the places quoted in the magent: Well doe you quote a margent, you cannot quote a text: neuer a place of those termeth him Archbyshop: Ergo, we intrude not vpon the name of Christ: Sith Archbyshop is none (in the letter of the newe Testanment) of the names belonging vnto Christ. But either we intrude vpon the iniquitie or equitie of this name, you wil not say with vnreue­rence, there is iniquitie in the name wherewith Christ is named: admitting therefore no iniquitie in the name, & for disputes sake that it is Christ his name: as well as Archduke and author of our faith:Heb. 12.2. & 13.20. Act. 3.15. & 5.31. [...], Great shepheard of the sheepe yee haue killed, [...], Prince of life. [...], A Prince and Sauiour: or high Shepheard and chiefe ruler. [...], to rule as well as to feede, yet you can not terme it intrusion to resort vnto the name, or to resume the equitie of the name.

Our rule which you neuer can refute, is this.

Those names which are attributed vnto Christ, may in subal­ternall respects without rapine or ambition be attributed vnto man, as Rabbi, Master, Doctor, high Priest, high Shepheard, Arch­byshop also if it were found attributed vnto Christ. Magistrates be called Gods.

Your fallacious Rule and maxime is without reason, without religion, without rule.

Wheresoeuer you finde [...] preposed before a name, your outcry is: It is vnlawful for any man to inuest him with the name or tilte in a secondary respect, and that after Christ.

This is a most falacious & erroneous rule: for the name agree­eth secundum prius et posterius, analogically: viz. Christ is a chiefe builder, and layeth himselfe as a foundation or corner stone: yet Saint Paul [...], a wise chiefe or master builder layeth a foundation: Christ chiefe leader Archduke of our faith: others also spirituall fathers, and begetters principall guides of faith,1. Cor. 3. [...]. Christ is high priest: yet this title in Christs time was at­tributed to some of the priests. Christ is head of the nations. psal. 2. yet Paul calleth a man [...], Christ is chiefe in all con­gregations,Psal. 2. yet were some men [...], and though Christ be prince of angels, yet is the trumpe of Archangel mentioned a­fore iudgement, and tenne Iuny cannot perswade me, that the Archangel in Iude that durste not giue ill language but sayde, the Lord rebuke thee, was Christ: vide 2. Pet. 2. ca. v. 11. Christ a chiefe minister and washed his Apostles feete, in humility is called 8. Heb. v. 2. [...]: minister of holy things, and of the true tabernacle, also [...] high or chiefe priest or chiefest minister, for he came not to be ministred vnto, but to mi­nister. Yet neuerthelesse he hath a name aboue all names:20. Matth. 28. v vnder­neath him are many ministers, 1. Cor. 3.5. v. what is Paul, what is Apollos; but the ministers by whom you haue beleeued? and yet none of you dare say, but they were chiefe ministers, or had care of many congregations, as our Archbishops, or chiefe BB. haue, or as our chiefeministers or archdeacons haue. Christ is the chiefe shepheard or chiefe ruler of his sheepe: other inferiour pastours are superintendents ouer the flocke, but all after him: Christ chiefe or great master or doctor: Saint Paul, doctor gentium, doc­tor of the gentiles: hee that is first and formost in order and su­perioritie amongst men: he that seeketh the primacie, qui pri­matum quaerit minister sit 20. Matth. 26. v. 20. Mat. 26. v. qui Episcopatum deside­der at praeclarum opus desiderat: Hee that occupieth the primacie must holde on his ministery: he that desireth a Bishopricke de­sireth but a worke, yea a commendable and godly labour and worke. And to cut you of from all colour, will you say, that the princes of the earth may not without blasphemie be called mo­narches because the etymologie seemeth to exclude all others euen God himselfe from any rule, seeing it specifieth sole rulers? But if [...], and [...], were granted to be all one (which [Page 34]is vntrue) because the one signifieth feeding and ruling, the other but inspection: yet is Christ called [...] with the article: td est, that chiefe Shepheard vniuersall, and without limitation of place or time, wheras Archbishops are chiefe BB. with limitation to a certaine prouince and limits, and not simply, but in respect of the BB. within that circuite, for reteyning of order in Synodes, and for redresse vpon appellations happening in that prouince.

For shame T C. and you the counterpoysoner helpe the De­monstrator to a cunninger Sophisme then this.

The 2. Demonstration.

If the name of the Pope bee odious because of that Antichrist who is inti­tuled therewith,Demon­stration. then also the name of Archbishop when it is ascribed to a mortall man, forasmuch as it is a title of a speciall member of Antichrist: But the first is true, Ergo, the later is true: The first is true by their owne con­fession 300. pag. of the defense of the answere to the admonition.

To the Antecedent.

We deny the antecedent and the sequel of the same.Remon­strance.

This is [...] to trifle and sing al­way one song. Say you, if the Pope being Antichrist, [...] that great Antichrist. This is an identicall affirmation, Antichrist is Antichrist. What meaning carieth this?

But let vs take the meaning, and not the disorder of the wordes.

If the name of the Pope bee odious because of Antichrist of whose mysticall iniquitie he is the head, then also the name of the Archbishops being a title of a speciall member of Antichrist, must be odious therewith: This is your argument, if a man will vnfold it: But this is most odiously argued against the most reuerend and christian name of Archbishops. The name & office of Arch­bishops was in sundry places of the world before BB. of Rome were Antichrists: ergo, Archbishops no members of Antichrist [...]. Why not all deacons odious because of popish deacons? Of this foolish figment of your phantastical brayne, or false sup­posall, it followeth by semblable consequencie, that if the Arch­bishops be odious because of the pope, the Bishops are odious because of the Archbishops, the priests are odious because of the Bishops, the deacons are odious because of the priests and so for one disorderly steppe or gradation from the Archbishops vp­ward, all orderly hierachie from the Archbishops downeward [Page 35]to the deacons, from the deacons vpward to the Archbishops, shalbe drawen into obloquious hatred: as some of your Brow­nists condemne all church policie and referre to Antichrist, and so likewise all our vniuersities are calumniously traduced by you to be the dishes of Antichrist wherein he is serued, being colled­ges of the prophets and seruiceable nurces to the church.

What manner of reasoning call you this?

If the name of infinite and illimitable iurisdiction bee odious,Foule absu­ditie of the Demon­strator. Ergo, the name of that which is bounded within limits must bee odious likewise: Or if the name of vniuersall and transcendent power that climeth ouer all, be hatefull: Ergo, the name of a mo­dest and measurable power and superioritie is ful of hatred also?

This is an absurdity in sight of euery man.

Finiti ad infinitum nullae est proportio. Betweene a thing finite and infinite there is no proportion.

The repercussiue rather maketh against you thus.

If the name of so vaste and infinite authority be intolerable in the church,Retortion. and antichristian: the name of a determined and pre­cincted authoritie is tolerable and christian: [...].

If this followeth vpon that, the opposite followeth of con­trary or opposite: contrariae sunt contrariorum consequentiae: Ar. Repraeh. Soph. con­trary followeth vpon contraryes.

To the assumption.

But the name of the Pope is odious (say you,) because of that Antichrist: Not because he vsed the name, but because hee abu­sed the name, the name is odious at this day.

If you make this a maxime, as T.C. and all his fellowes doe: viz. whatsoeuer is vsed by the Pope and church of Rome, must bee deadly hated for his and their sakes: you make a wodden adoe then. Though Nero and Caligula abuse the name of God, or wilbe called Gods being by nature no gods, shall not wee therefore inuocate and call vpon the name of God, the euerlyuing God? Albeit Tarquinius made the name of a King odious, in that hee gouerned all domesticis consiliis, as Liuie reporteth, and by other misdemeanour of himselfe: doth it therefore followe, wee must detest the name of a King? Although the false prophets prophecied lyes in [Page 36]the name of the liuing God, shall wee shake of other good pro­phets for their names sake? though the persons degenerate, the name may continue vnlesse it be a name of blasphemie, where­with no name is named in our church policie.

How say you to this?

If one Pope bee odious because of that one Antichrist,Retortion of the argument vpon the De­monstrator. then many popes bee odious because of many Antichrists. No Arch­bishop hath so popelike authoritie as you claime: no man may propound but your selues, and so you haue a negatiue voyce: you woulde examine and censure kings: you claime to make lawes and orders for the church, without the Princes authoritie, and your sentences stande not suspended vpon an appellation: no Archbishop in her maiesties dominions hath any such authoritie: S. Iohn saith there are many antichristes:Tertull de pre­script. aduer. haeret. Qui pseudoprophetaenisi falsi praedicatores? qui pseudo apostoli nisi falsi euang elizatores? qui an­tichristi interim & semper nisi Christi rebelles? Who are false pro­phets, but false preachers? who are false apostles but false gospel­lers? who are Antichrist betweene this and the worlds ende, but such who are contumacious and rebellious against Christ? who if that you appose your selues against the christiā magistracy & ho­ly ministery of Christ, prophane ye priesthood by erecting a laical presbytery: 2. Thes. 2. aduance your selues [...] in the temple against al that is called God, [...], against the reuerend Archbishops & BB. who beare this iurisdiction for and in the name of Christ and God.

The demōstrator as it were wearie of demonstration leaueth his forrest bill or long staffe, and taketh a shorter paire of codgels into his hande, goeth to ob. and So. Dolus an virtus quis in hoste requirit? what pietie in an aduersarie is this to muster our argu­ment and authorities for vs? there can bee litle disaduantage in this, for he disputeth pro et contra: First out of the defence of the answere to the admonition. 318. pag.

The 1. obiection of the Demonstrator.

Clemens alloweth these names as Polidore lib. 4. cap. 12. reporteth.Demonstra­tion.

The Answere of the demonstrator.

Polidore is but a reporter, & Clemens is a counterfeite & worthy of no credit.

He that vsed the argument pag. 318.Remon­strance with reply. vsed it as a probable testi­mony for the antiquitie of the name, not as infallible ground or certainty to proue the name and thing: for that the sayd author [Page 37]or Defendor proueth, together with the equitie of the name and thing, out of the worde of God sufficiently: but you sir deale ve­ry handsomly, like a mad dogge which biteth any aliue or dead. Mortui non mordent, the dead bite not him, for any thing your profoundnes knoweth, Polydore Virgil might haue seene Com­pendiarium Christianae religionis, of Clemens his booke, who com­piled his owne booke out of such notices which he compiled and robbed from our Librarie bookes in England, and therefore it is a probabilitie he had seene the right & orthodoxe Clemens, not the counterfeit Clemens, whose epistles and bastardie no man defendeth. But euery Clement with you is a counterfeit Clement. Your clemencie and curtesie in arguing thus to and fro is but a counterfeit clemencie.

The 2. Obiection.

Erasmus saith, Titus was an Archbishop.

Answere.

He spake as the times wherein he liued:Demonstra­tion. but that proueth not that he held him one in deede, no more then our naming the Archbishop of Canturburie proueth that we like his authoritie.

This man the Demonstrator, holdeth as good opinion of E­rasmus, Remon­strance with replie. as Bellarmin the Iesuite, who termeth him semichristianū: as if Erasmus speaketh that which he doeth not beleeue, or loqui­tur secundùm vulgus, non ex animi sententia. T C. the ma­ster and De­monstratour the man at variance. But what saith T.C. to this? forsooth this: Erasmus saith, S. Paul did informe Timothie of the office of a Bishop, and Titus and Timothie had an office, er­go, Titus was no Archbishop, according to T.C. because he was a Bishop: and the man reasons thus in olde earnest.

As for you, and the whole vnlettered sorte of Puritanes, and T. C. your leader, name the Archbishop when and where, and how often you please, neither shal you be compeers with Erasmus, nei­ther will any wise man hold his authoritie to be more or lesse for you. Finally for T.C. who is opinatiue that Titus was neither Archbishop nor Bishop, (which the scholiast in Greeke doth ea­sily yeeld vnto) but rather an Euangelist, he is a mad man, and wil infinitely deny and reuenge him in the ende. Plus potest vnus asi­nus negare, quàm mille Augustini possunt probare. An asse may denie more, thē a thousand Austines shal be able to proue. Yet the sub­scription, the consent of the Fathers, his constitution of Bishops [Page 38]in that large Island of Candie, ioyned with the epistle, will proue more then T.C. coniecture. And how followeth this, he was a Preacher of the Gospell or Euangelist, ergo none Archbishop? was not Idmes an Apostle, and Bishop of Ierusalem?

The 3. Obiection.

Anacletus sayth, Demonstra­tion. Iames was first Archbishop of Ierusalem.

Answere.

He is forged, as our answere to the Papistes haue shewed: But Eusebius li. 2. cap. 25. calleth him Bishop, and Simeon after him, li. 3. cap. 22. and so Irenaeus li, 4. ca. 63. Apostles ordeined Bishops euery where, making no mention of Arch­bishops.

This is the readiest answere that commeth out of your forge.Remon­strance with reply. Bishop Iewell in his question betweene vs and you, vouchsafeth to alledge Anacletus, whome you so peremptorily reiect. Ana­cletus (saith he) that was next after Peter, if there be any weight in his word, nameth Archbishop Anacletus as neerer vnto those times, in his epistle, 1. Tom. Concil. saith, Iames called Iustus, was Archbishop of Ierusalem. Now say you, Eusebius calleth him but Bishop of Ierusalem, (by the way T.C. giueth or lendeth you a false quotation 22. cap. for 11. cap.) ergo, no Archbishop. It would scare a man to reason with you: you do it so cleerely, as if a chiefe among Bishops, or Archbishop, were not a Bishop. Howbeit neither Eusebius, nor Irenaeus speaketh exclusiuely: for euery Archbishop is a Bishop, not euery Bishop an Archbishop, è con­uerso. Hîc semper erras. To reason from auctorities negatiuely, is an affirmatiue impudencie. As rightly might you reason, and doe wrong to diuine auctoritie, Moses made Captaines of 100. and 1000. ergo, Moses made not any superiour Magistrate, as the 72. Or Christ sent 72. Disciples, ergo, he sent none of the 12. Apo­stles, or any other officers.

The 4. Obiection.

The Councell of Nice,Demonstra­tion. canon. 6. mentioneth a Metropolitane Bishop.

Answere.

That proueth nothing, it is as much as Bishop of the chiefe Citie.

You cut off the definition of the Archbishop at the waste:Remon­strance with reply. for the Councel not onely mentioneth a Metropolitane, who is idem re, which the Archbishop is, but defineth him also: Cui conuenit definitio, conueniet definitum: & è contrà. Antiqua consuetudo ser­uetur per Aegyptum, Libyam, Pentapolim, vt Alexandrinus Episco­pus [Page 39]horum omnium habeat potestatem. 6. ca. Let the olde custome be kept throughout Aegypt, Libya, Pentapolis, that the bishop of A­lexandria haue his iutisdictiō or auctoritie ouer them. It was then no noueltie, but an ancient and primitiue custome. What is the Archbishop or Metropolitane bishop? one who hath power, one who must be primus inter eos, first or chiefe,6. can. or primate amongest them, 33. ca. Apostol. quodammodo pro capite 35. ca. Apost. 33. can. Apostol. 35. can. Apostol. as it were their head, head of the rest: [...], one that hath care of the whole prouince. conc. Antio. ca. 9.ca. 9. conc. Antio. What is a Metropolitane bishop, but an Archbishop? None was to be or­deined a B. without the consent of the Metropolitane bishop.

This is a great reproofe to him that is not past blushing, when he shall alledge that which conuinceth him selfe, as this doeth you. A litle bringing about will make you confesse in plainenes, which you confesse in circumloquution. It is but nicetie thus to deale with the famous Councell of Nice.

The 2. part of the Proposition.

That the office of Archbishop is contrarie to the worde of God.Demonstra­tion.

The 1. Demonstration.

Euery ministerie lawfull, is of God.

The office of Archbishop is not described in the worde, nor of God, but of humane pollicie: ergo, vnlawfull.

To the Maior.

This is one of your Demonstrations à causaremota, Remon­strance. when you fetch your medius terminus so farre of, as frō God, & neuer quote a place: but I graunt your Maior, if you can proue the Minor.

To the Minor.

The office of the Archbishop is from God,Cyp. li. 1.11.50. secundùm Dei dignationem sa­cerdotium Dei ad ministramus. Contradicti­on to them­selues. and described in Gods word: that it is not of meere humane pollicie, you are an­swered before, but of God, though mediatiuely by diuine permis­sion, permissione diuina, as themselues in humilitie doe confesse. Obserue this by the way, as a contradiction you make vnto your selues. Where you nowe say, the office is not described in the word, a litle before you say, the Archbishop doeth vsurpe Christ his proper name, which is [...], Archbishop, or high or chiefe pastour. Nowe to euery name longeth a charge and office, and to the name pastour and bishop, longeth an office, and so per conse­quens to the Archbishop, as sometime to Titus and Timothie, an higher charge and pastorall office.

The 2. Demonstration.

That ministerie whose originall is vnknowne, hath no warrant in Gods word,Demonstra­tion. and is vnlawful: the Archbishop is so. pag. 351. of the Defense of the an­swere to the Admonition. ergo,

To the Maior.

The Maior I denie,Remon­strance. and distinguish vpon this word vnknowne: vnknowne is an ambiguous worde.

There is an originall of the name, & of the nature of the name. There is ignotum nobis, & ignotum natura, vnknowne to vs, and vnknowne in nature: which vnknowne doe you meane, make it once knowne.Lucan. I may say vnto you, as the Poet Lucan saide: igno­tum vobis Arabes venistis in orbem: you are children of a strange worlde, that comming into the world of Christianitie, make the Archbishops ministerie an vnknowne thing.

To the Minor.

If you meane vnknowne the nature and equitie of the thing, this is vtterly false: the superioritie of ye Archbishops is most clere­ly knowne,Concil, Antioch. both in and before the first Councell of Nice, and in the Ecclesiastical historie, and lineally descended from the Apo­stles themselues. It skilleth not for the originall of the name, sith [...] may beare equiualencie with the name, sith in the practise of the Apostles a blinde man may see, also amongest the Pri­matiue Christians, a superiour authoritie supported by the name. But if your meaning be, it is vnknowne to you contemners and breakers downe of the hedge and wall of all iurisdiction, it ma­keth no matter what is knowne or vnknowne vnto you, who haue forgotten all together, and knowe not your selues.

See nowe whether this Syllogisme can be retorted vpon your selues?Retortion of the argument.

That publike function whose originall is vtterly strange and vnknowne in nature and in name, hath no warrant in the worde, nor is authorised in the Church.

Your confused popular vnpreaching, temporarie, mechanicall Presbyteri, or Aldermāship, is vtterly vnknown, but within these fewe yeeres of late, neither is it knowne to any but your selues, if perhaps you knowe it your selues: ergo, it is neither warranted by God, nor ought to be auctorised by the Church.

The 3. Demonstration.

The office which is needlesse in the Church is vnlawfull.Demonstra­tion.

The Archbishops office is needlesse, because the ministerie is perfect with­out it, Eph. 4.11. Ergo. Eph. 4.11.

To the Maior.

This demonstration is rather follie then fallacie:Remon­strance. the Medium or proofe there is needlesse. In deed lesse need of this then of that before. Bare neede maketh you demonstrate after this sort, your argument is but mistaken. It is not à non necessario, sed ab indepen­dente. My answer therefore is.

Not euery thing seeming needlesse in humane preiudice, is foorth with vnlawfull in Gods diuine iudgement.

To the Minor.

This is a most lewd affirmation in the Minor, that the Archbi­shops office is needlesse, because the ministerie is perfect without it. The Demonstrator is as bold as any man, and as blind as who­soeuer: but boldnesse and blindnesse are the two helpes. As for the reason that ye ministerie is perfect without it, it is an vnperfect reason: For as iustly may he say the office of a Christian King is needlesse in the church, because ye ministerie is perfect without it. This is a doubtfull clause to leaue the ministerie in speculation, not in action: or to consider of the being of the ministerie, not of the well being of the same. Let this one word serue for your answer, if you will be answered. The perfectnesse of the mini­sterie doeth not ouerturne the needfulnesse of gouernement or direction by the Archbishop, I dare auouch hee knoweth not wherein an Archbishops office here consisteth.

That which is needlesse, is vnlawfull, &c.Retortion of the argument.

The office of Church-Aldermen ouer all men, and all maners, is needelesse in our Church, where a Christian magistracie is established alreadie, and because no place of Scripture affirmeth for it, Ergo, it is vnlawfull in the Church, and none but T.C. idest, thanklesse curiositie would bring it in place. Or this.

That which is needlesse, is vnlawfull.

All courtes of Record, as Chancerie and Common pleass, &c. shall be found needlesse if the Consistorie of Presbyters and El­ders were set vp, which is onely needfull, or else full of neede, in the Church or congregation of the faithfull brethren, because [Page 42]they may determine all matters wherein any breach of charitie may be, as the Admonitioner saieth: Ergo, all Courts of Record, as Chancerie, Common pleas, &c. by their reason will be found all vnlawfull.

Thus then we reason out of their owne grounds.

What office soeuer is needlesse, idest, is not necessarilie requi­red in the Church, the same is vnlawfull.

The Christian princes supreme gouernment in causes ecclesi­asticall (if wee beleeue these men) is needlesse: for the learned discourser (who saieth the Church was most flourishing when there was no Christian magistrate) & T.C. saith no lesse, who fin­deth no difference betweene an heathen and a Christian king touching the matter of intermedling in church gouernment, ium­ping therein with Harding and other papists: Ergo, (by this asser­tion) the princes supreme gouernment is vnlawfull: which vn­sound and rebellious conclusion very necessarily followeth, not only of this assertion, but of infinite other their speeches. Or thus.

The office which is needlesse, is vnlawfull.

The hauing of an Eldership in euery congregation, is needles, for one Eldership in the towne serueth for the whole country be­longing to Geneua, where neuerthelesse they haue diuers Chur­ches and their seuerall ministers. And so in Scotland where there be but few Elderships in comparison of the seuerall congregati­ons, yet these Churches were reformed will you say. Likewise the hauing of a Doctor in euery congregation, and Deacons to be of the Eldership, is an office needlesse, for they haue them not so in France or Scotland, though most of our platformers require both: Ergo, the hauing of an Eldership, or of Doctor, or Deacons to be of the Eldership in euery congregation are offices vnlaw­full. By which examples also appeareth the falshood of the Mi­nor: because the ministerie is perfect without those in such pla­ces, and yet the Demonstrationer will not affirme the Eldership, Doctor and Deacon to be needlesse.

The 4. Demonstration.

If all giftes for perfecting of the Church needfull be appropriated vnto o­ther ministers,Demonstra­tion. then is his ministerie vnlawfull: But all are appropriated to those foure, Ephesians 4. Pastor, Doctor, Elder and Deacon, whereof hee is none. Ergo.

This Hypotheticall Syllogisme is as bad a Paralogisme as T.C. his simple Syllogisme refuted at large in the defence of the an­swer to the Admonition,Remon­strance. pag. 316. I may well call it T.C. his whirlepoole, because he drowneth himselfe and his scholers in it. Thus:

Those functions onely are sufficient for the Church, which haue all gifts needfull, &c.

But all those functions reckoned of Paul, Ephe. 4. & 1. Cor. 12 haue the gifts needfull: ergo, those functions onely are sufficient for the Church.

As if a man did argue thus.

Those things onely are sufficient to saluation which are con­tained in the Scripture.Absurditie of T.C. and of the Demonstra­tor. But all things in the Aue Maria are con­tained in the Scripture: ergo, those things in the Aue Maria are onely sufficient to saluation.

Or as cunningly after this sort.

Those only are men which are endued with reason. But all the Costerdmongers of London are endued with reason: ergo, the Costerdmongers of London are the onely men.

Where the Maior is particular, the argumentation of sole par­ticulars, and hath no force of reason, the Medium or argument hath this word Onely in the Maior cum subiecto, and is left out in the Minor. Besides all this, it concludeth affirmatiuè in the second figure, against the lawe of due conclusion: finally, it lacketh both moode and figure, and lacketh no fault.

To the sequele of the Antecedent.

The sequele is vntrue: for dealing with the Church stocke thē ­selues say, it was appropriate Act. 6. to 7. Deacons, yet Act. 11. the collection was sent, [...], for the administration, not to such as we call commonly and peculiarly Deacons, but [...], to the priests or ministers, yet this not vnlawful in them.

To the Assumption.

Both sides, backe and bellie, turne which side you will hereof, is a shamelesse vntrueth: for God hath not appropriated the gifts to those 4. nor to any other, 4. or 5. titles and names of offices in Church: but he doeth tie and vntie, conferre and bestow the gift on such an office, which is fit for the commoditie of the Church, in what measure he pleaseth.

Elders and Deacons are not once mentioned in that text: ther­fore thus I reason. If all giftes needfull for perfecting of the Church be appropriated vnto the Ministers mentioned, Ephes. 4. then the ministerie of Elders and Deacons is vnlawfull, much lesse is it needfull for perfecting of the Church.

But by the Demonstrator (and his customers, of whom he boroweth) all needfull gifts are appropriate to Apostles, Euan­gelists, Prophets (nowe wholie ceased as they saye) and to Pa­stors and Doctors which onely remaine. Ergo, Elders and Dea­cons are both needlesse and vnlawfull: neither will their old sillie shift shroud them: viz. that Ministers of the word are there on­ly meant. First, because no such distinction is there made, or to be collected: Vbi lex non distinguit, nec nos debemus, and they should least of all so gather, who reason in all matters negatiuely out of Scriptures: for either it must teach this distinction, or else it is no good way that is taught. Secondly, for that Elders & Deacons either are contained vnder some of these, or else they haue no gifts or blessings from Christ annexed to their callings: for that those are the gifts which Christ ascending gaue to his Church. Thirdly, because those officers mentioned, Ephes. 4. are giuen as sufficient of Christ, not onely for the worke of the Ministerie, [...], but for the gathering together of the Saints, and building of the bodie of the Church: two speciall effects (if we should beleeue them) of their presbyteries, then what giftes will remaine, and to what end, which may be bestowed on their El­ders and Deacons? all that Christ gaue (as themselues speake) being appropriate and taken vp afore, by others? Or thus. If all such gifts for the worke of the ministerie, &c. bee appropriate to Pastors and Doctors which still remaine, then are the gifts pecu­liar to Apostles, Euangelists and Prophets either ceased with them, because seuerall functions (they say) haue alwayes seuerall and peculiar giftes, & è conuerso: so that Pastors and Doctors shall not haue any gifts which any of the other three had: or if this be absurd, because Christ hath giuen them all to his Church (as is there testified) vntill we all meete together in the vnitie of faith, and knowledge of the sonne of God vnto a perfect man, and vnto the mea­sure of the age of the fulnesse of Christ (which shall not bee till the consummation of all things) therefore (setting aside some extra­ordinarie [Page 45]points that were personall to some few in those times) all these functions and offices are ordinarie, and remaine still in the Church, whatsoeuer some writers say to the contrarie: al­beit through the great diuersitie of the measure of gifts, it be dif­ficult to set downe certainly in all times what offices doe answer vnto which of euery of them. But forsomuch as the consent of all ancient writers making bishops both a diuine institution (sauing onely Hierome in two places, being thereby also contrary to himselfe else-where) and successors of the Apostles, for the plan­ting of sundrie Churches at first, or establishing and gouerning Churches alreadie planted: concurreth with the vniforme pra­ctise of all the Churches in the world, from the Apostles time downeward, and is not contraried by the worde: therefore I mustneedes (with that incomparable man Zanchus) iudge their institution and office to bee of the holy Ghost,Zanchus in con­fess. as succeeding therein the Apostles. As for an Archbishop, he is a bishop of his seuerall dioecesse, yet chiefe amongst many of a prouince, for better direction of matters of order, and for iustice vpon appel­lations, which being but an accident, maketh no seuerall kind of office: therefore that addition to the Minor is vntrue, whereof he is none, because in all those offices the greater includeth the lesse, and a bishop is both a successour of the Apostles, and al­so a pastour or minister: he is [...], as S. Peter, although in order chiefe Apostle, yet a fellow elder in the lord. For teaching and feeding (to vse Saint Hieromes wordes) Vt vnus idémque sit paster ouium magister hominum: Ephes. 4. one and the same man may bee a pastour amongst his sheepe, and a Doctour amongst men.

Note the feature of this deformed argument.

If God hath giuen all sense and intelligence to T.C. and the Demonstrator which are but two men:Absurdities of the Demon­strator, which he is lead vn­to by igno­rance of All collectiue, and All distri­butiue. All the world besides are sencelesse and witlesse men.

If the lord hath put the spirite of wisedome and cunning into Bezaleel and Aholiab: By this collection of the Demonstrator, all the rest after are vnskilfull and vncunning men.

If God gaue [...], omnem fidem, to his 12. Apostles, where­of Paul was none, being borne out of due time: Ergo, Paul the Apostle had no faith.

The 5. Demonstration.

That office is vnlawfull which none may lawfully bestow.Demonstra­tion.

But none may lawfully bestow the office of the Archbishop, because none can giue new gifts to adorne it withall, Ergo, vnlawfull.

To the Maior.

By this rule you may take exception to Moses, Remon­strance. and to S. Iohn Baptist, who tooke not their office from man, but from God. Your Maior had bene true, if the ground of it were Nemo sibi ar­roget honorem, vnlesse he be called by God, or by the ordinance of man vnderneath God.

To the Minor.

This is not onely vnreasonable, but treasonable, because the Queenes maiestie doth and ought to giue and bestow the office of the Archbishop, vnto which office no extraordinarie, but ordi­narie gifts are belonging. None can bestow (saieth the Demon­strator) the office of an Archbishop, because he can giue no new gifts to garnish it withall: Ergo, according vnto him, some may bestow the office of an Archbishop, who is able to giue new gifts to adorne it withall. But I would gladly for my instruction learn, how they prooue the contradictorie Proposition vnto this, viz. None can bestow an office of gouernment in charge, vnlesse he giue new giftes to beautifie it withall, or, that office which ho­ly Synode and Parliament doth allowe, none can bestow. As if the substance could not be without changeable Accidents and alterable qualities belonging vnto it:Absurditie of the Demon­strator. as if no man can bestow a new mantell, vnlesse hee giue new buttons together with the mantell: or none can bestow a clokebag on the maker of these woorthie Demonstrations, vnlesse he giue new strings to tie both ends withall. Thus I retort it vpon them.

That office which none may lawfully bestow, is vnlawfull.

The office of their Pastors, Doctors, Elders and Deacons, none can lawfully bestow, because (as they reason) None can giue new giftes to adorne them withall, more then they had afore their ordinations: Ergo, (by this their owne position) all those are vnlawfull. If they answere, God hath bestowed giftes on these offices alreadie, wee replie that so hee hath giuen to Apostles, and vnto [...] gouernements in the Church, Rom. 12. a mat­ter wherein Bishops and Archbishops are especially bestowed: [Page 47]and yet (as I haue shewed afore) they must by their owne colle­ction pull their Elders and Deacons out of that ranke, for they are not once mentioned where the gifts are sayd to be giuen. Eph. 4. but come cleane after the dole.

The 6. Demonstration.

If the office of an Archbishop be lawfull,Demonstra­tion. it is either in respect of his excel­lencie aboue other men, or the place whereof he is aboue other places: But neither of these haue euer bene, or hereafter can be. ergo,

You might haue remembred the old rule,Remon­strance. that from insuffici­ent enumeration of the parts or of the causes, the argument doth not hold: or this fallacie is of the consequent, as saieth Aristotle: [...], when you mistake the cause. The lawfulnesse of his office is in regard of his superioritie grounded on the word of God, and in respect of his authoritie, wherewith he is put in trust by the prince and Parliament.

But I answere thus.

If the office of the seignorie be lawfull, it is either in respect of the excellencie of the men, or of the most illustrious and celebra­ted place: not the first, for an Artisan elder is as good and sub­stantiall an elder, as any Earle or honourable man, and by their owne platforme he must sit cheeke by ioll, by the noblest Erle or counseller of the land. Neither the second, for no place is better or worse vnto them, who seeke for equalitie, Non locus virum, sed vir locum honestat: The place giueth not credite to the man, but the man to the place: ergo, the seignorie is not lawfull in re­spect of the man or place, and consequently hath none authori­tie or gouernment.

The 1. Allegation.

Caluin, lib. 4. Institut. cap. 11. sect. 7.Demonstra­tion.

Beza in the booke of diuorcements speaketh against iurisdiction of bishops, and others substitute officers.

If you alleage new writers one for one,Remon­strance. we haue an Oliuer for a Rowland: if you alleage two, wee can produce twise so many. Bullinger and Musculus, Hemingius, Gualter and Zanchus, &c. But our meaning is not to muster authorities, or recite the names of authors: Pauperis est numer are pecus: Goe rather to the things then names.

Caluins wordes are against the papists: Iurisdictionem suam [Page 48]spiritualem iactant Romanenses: Hee alloweth in his institutions, Patriarkes, Archbishops and bishops, in the primitiue Church: Shew any impietie in the offices of ours more then in those.

Beza speaketh against their dealings in those causes, that know more in such causes (any one of them) then 20. of his Assistants in Eldership: but if you alleage the onely fathers and begetters of presbyteries for them, we will set Ridley and Iewell for bishops, as learned as these in all respects, and as godly.

The 2. Allegation.

Peter Martyr vpon the 13. to the Romanes, Demonstra­tion. speaketh agaynst ciuill Iuris­diction in Bishops, and by the same reason condemneth it in their substi­tutes.

Peter Martyr speaketh not against any iurisdiction,Remon­strance. which is a furtherance, but popish iurisdiction which is a hinderance to the Gospell. But whatsoeuer Peter Martyr saith, we say this to you: Bishops in respect they are bishops in England, haue no ciuill iurisdiction: for the distinction of ciuill and ecclesiasticall matters, is more priciselie and vpon greater penalties here re­tained, then else-where in all Christendome. If it bee said some matters they handle bee ciuill, that are called ecclesiasticall, wee aske whether oeconomicall matters bee not a part of ciuill, wherein they are as husbandly, nay niggardly as any: and fur­ther demaund a rule out of Gods word (of them that vrge this as a sinne) whereby to know a specificall difference betweene ciuill and Ecclesiasticall causes. They cannot say because some of those which Ecclesiasticall courtes here handle, bee accounted else-where ciuill, therefore they may not be here Ecclesiasticall: for of the contrary, some matters here mere ciuill, are else-where holden Ecclesiasticall. As for example in Geneua and Scotland, they inflict censures on those which for ciuill enormious crimes the magistrat hath punished or pardoned, as felons, manslears, & such like, and all their presbyteries (euen that among the English­men at Middleborough) vse to deale with qualifiyng of forfeitures of bonds and accounts betweene hard masters and their prenti­ses, and other such Chancerie matters: much more therefore those may iustly be accounted ecclesiastical, which the law & ciuill ma­gistrate do put ouer to ecclesiastical mē, & better thē those which being in truth mere ciuil, are intruded vpō the presbyteries. Cau­ses [Page 49]beneficial, viz. for titles and maintenance of Ministers, causes matrimonial, diffamatorie, with breach of charitie, where none a­ction lieth in ciuill Courts, punishment of sinnes not punishable by the ciuil Magistrate, and of reparations of churches & church­yards (which are all the heads of matters that bishops may hādle, sauing testamentarie,) you wil (I hope) allow to be Ecclesiastical. As for testamentary causes, euen at the common law of this land, they haue bene alwaies made Ecclesiasticall, both because that lawe hath litle direction in those causes (but such as is borrow­ed from the ciuill and Ecclesiastical lawes) and for that mens last wils (at least were wont) do conteine sundrie demises for Chur­ches, orphanes, poore, captiues, and such like good vses, whereof the Church had the fourth part, and wherein Bishops are inten­ded to be most carefull to minister right indifferently to all, for performance of the deads will.

Any iurisdiction ciuill, which Bishops, or some Ecclesiasticall persons haue, is not claimed by them as due to their functions, but imposed by the Prince, as vpon subiects seruiceable for the Realme, and for a credite to their places, as Counseller, Ambassa­dor, Iustice of the Peace, &c. For seeing they are subiects, free­men, and citizens of the Common-wealth, (besides their mini­sterie of the Church) I would knowe whether they owe not this dutie, (being imposed on them,) vnto the Common-wealth, and their Prince? But we shall not (I trust) neede to perswade much with these men, for they are not so squemish of ciuill honor and function, as they would then seeme, whiles their malignant eies are onely fastened vpon Bishops. For where they haue sway, nei­ther prince nor Magistrate shall proclaime feast or fast, treate of league, peace or warre with any Prince, nor make any ordinance, without their aduise:The exam­ple of the re­uerend lear­ned man. they will haue Deputies of the Churches in Parliament, when they haue shut out Bishops, and they thrust their Elders and Ministers vpon Kings, to sitte with their other Counsellors, as was not long since practised. Is any matter most ciuil (euen almost of least moment) determined at Geneua, with­out Beza? insomuch as when troubles increase, he omitteth his readings and preachings sundry times? Is he not of the counsell of 60. in that state? was not Ʋilliers Secretarie of estate to the Prince of Orenge? and further (if we may beleeue the Chaos, de [Page 50]Politia ciuili & ecclesiastica, Lib. 3. which Law. Cha. was so earnest to haue printed at Leyden) ministers and persons Ecclesiasticall (in that they are citizens) may, nay (in respect they are wise & lear­ned) ought to be of counsell of Princes in affaires ciuill of the Common-wealth, and to giue especiall direction euen in setting vp and deposing of Princes, as he sayeth, beeing a Presbyteriall man: and further, if there were nothing else, by as good rea­son may our Bishops meddle in ciuill iurisdiction,Retortion. being Ecclesi­asticall men, as your prophane Laye elders intermeddle with Ec­clesiasticall iurisdiction, being ciuill men or Lay men.

Is not this a good and lawful conuersion?

Some ciuill Magistrate lawfully is an Ecclesiastical person and gouernour, ergo, some Ecclesiasticall person and gouernour law­fully is a ciuill Magistrate: or if some may be so, what preroga­tiue for one is there more then for some other? But stay a while, the Demonstrator meaneth to skirmish with him selfe with ob. and so.

The 1. Obiection.

Cyprian saith,Demonstra­tion. lib. 1. epist. 3. ad Cornelium. Neither haue heresies and schismes risen of any other occasions then that the Priest of God is not obeied, nor one Priest for the time, nor one Iudge in steede of Christ thought vpon, &c.

Answere.

This place is alledged for the Pope, but it serueth for euery Bishop.

This place is else-where in Cyprian, making for the superiori­tie of Bishops.Remon­strance with reply. Lib. 4. ep. 9. But this answere cutteth their owne throate. If for euery bishop, ergo, it serueth for the superioritie of our bishops, which Cyprian in writing (being a bishop, and superiour ouer o­thers) would neither in him selfe, nor other bishops, of whom he also speaketh, condemne.

The 2. Obiection.

The authoritie of the Archbishop preserueth vnitie.Demonstra­tion.

Answere.

Cyprian li. 4. ep. 9. saith: vnitie is preserued by the agreement of Bishops, that is, Ministers.

He speaketh of the vnitie of the Catholike Church.Remon­strance with reply. Lib. 1. ep. 3.

Bishops with Cyprian are not ordinarie Ministers: you may not take these in signification, [...] all one. But admitte it were [Page 51]so, as it is not so in Cyprian, Doeth this reason holde being the ve­ry like?

Vnitie is preserued by concorde and amitie of burgesses, or commons of a Towne, ergo, not by the Magistrate or peaceable Maior of the Towne? no more doth that, It is preserued by bi­shops, ergo, not by Archbishops.

The 3. Obiection.

It compoundeth controuersies that would growe to many heades.Demonstra­tion.

Answere.

Cyprian saith, lib. 1. ep. 13. the companie of Elders is the glew of mutual con­corde,Demon. citeth 13. ca. 1. li. whereas there are but 12. e­diti. Basil. that if any be author of heresie, the other should helpe.

Cyprian vseth in the former allegation, lib. 1. ep. 3. glutine sacer­dotum. The Church is framed and made fast with the glewe of priestes. And also li. 3. ep. 13. Corpus sacerdotum concordiae mutuae glutine: the bodie of the priest. If the word were Elders,Remon­strance with replie. the helpe of Elders, meaning the Priestes, lieth not as a barre to exclude the helping hands of bishops, who are in degree higher then the priestes, or of the Archbishop who is highest of them all: for if concord of mindes make them to agree, superioritie of order will with-hold them from disagreeing.

The 4. Obiection.

Ierom vpon Titus 1. saith: that in the beginning a Bishop and a Priest,Demonstra­tion. meaning a teaching Elder, were all one: but when one said, I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, it was decreed, one should beare rule ouer all the rest.

Answere.

From the beginning it was not so. Tertullian contra.

That is true whatsoeuer is first, &c. and Hierom ibidem saith, that this aucto­ritie was by custome, and not by Gods institution. If it had bene the best way to take away diuisions, the Apostles in whose time controuersies did arise, would haue taken the same order.

This is called preuarication or collusion,Remon­strance with reply. Epist. ad Euagr. to oppose your selues a litle gentler, and make the obiection weaker to fortifie your selues. He that will make a rod for himselfe, will make it of fea­thers. If you would haue alledged out of Hierome the Epistle ad Euagr. would haue fitted your turne better, where S. Hierome saith: It was not onely decreed, but decreed in all the worlde, that one of the priestes being chosen, should be set ouer or a­boue all the rest: this then you confesse was so, but from the [Page 52]beginning it was not so. Our Sauiour speaketh of matter of di­uorce. This text is brauely applied: and that of Tertullian, for matter of doctrine to a manner of discipline, is in the like sorte applied.

But to the point of the argument. Because S. Hierom is made to puritanize with you, and this allegation is the [...], to kill vs withall, not to withstand Hierome, but to vnderstand Hierome, the best expounder of himselfe: we plainely graunt, that Bishop and Priest were once for a short time all one, donec Ecclesia reci­peret complemētum, as Ambrose saith, till the church were brought to a perfection: so once there were no Deacons, which yet de­rogateth nothing from them. But yet not so all one, that by the institution of God they were to continue all one, and might not be changed; or that in the Apostles time, they were not foorth­with changed, sith in the Apostles time, I am of Paul, I am of Ce­phas, was the occasion of the change, and that for rooting out of schisme, and composing of strifes, as in sending from Antioch to Ierusalem, was the verie chiefe ende and purpose of the change, and finally the decree of all the worlde for the ratifying of a standing superioritie, was the approbation of the change, as Hi­erome thinketh, who being but a Priest or Minister himselfe, though there he laboureth to debase the Bishop, as much as he could, yet by the pregnant light is forced to confesse such a de­cree, (though in truth it be not likely any such generall decree was positiuely made) through all the worde, otherwise then the imitation of such Churches (by a secrete and vniuersall consent) as the Apostles had planted, and such a decree we will graunt.

Me thinketh I heare one of you reason as strongly, thus.

In the beginning Kings were Priestes,Absurditie of the obiection. kingdome and priest­hood were ioined in one: ergo, Kings and Priests must so remaine and continue all one.

Or, in the beginning, such was their simplicitie.

Great Lords sonnes, Iacob and his children kept their fathers sheepe: ergo, Noble mens children must keepe their fathers sheepe: for in the beginning yong sheepheards and yong prin­ces were but all one. Or thus: In the beginning there were no [...], Elders: for the first mention of them is but in the 11. of the Actes, ergo, there neuer ought any Presbyteri, viz. Ministers, to [Page 53]haue bene ordeined.

The 5. Obiection.

Caluin sayth, the Apostles had one amongst them to gouerne the rest.

The Answere.

That was for order to propound matters, to gather voyces, as the speaker of the Parliament, not for Superioritie.

This answere would be better iustified then with bare wordes:Remon­strance with replie. Doe the fathers or Caluin thinke, Iames was but chosen chiefe for one meeting, as they chuse their Presidents? And we do not hold Caluin or any humane authoritie affirmatiue, and therefore we ra­ther defend it was for order & Superioritie, both of dignitie & of­fice. Eusebius, whom Caluin citeth to this purpose, maketh Iames the sonne of Alpheus Byshop of Ierusalem and Byshop of the A­postles, because the Synode of the twelue Disciples and 72. Euan­gelists continued from Christ his ascencion to ye dispersion of the Apostles. It must needes be amongst the Apostles and other Pa­storall Elders, not onely a gouernment for continuance of order, but also preeminence in the action. Act. 15.19. For there the worde [...] I iudge or determine is vsed, whereupon after much disputation all rested, and the matter was concluded: for it is no preiudice to the equalitie of the Apostleship or ministerie, a mo­dest, orderly, and temperate authoritie. This is worth the whole, It was of order (say they) not of Superioritie as the speaker in Parliament: as if all Superioritie were opposite to good order: but as neere as they can, they will borrow from the high Court of Parliament: Belike they meane one day to keepe a Court of it.Retortion. The Speaker doeth not gather the voyces, neither hath voice, but when all the house is euen. The L. Chanceller in the vpper house asketh, the Clarke gathereth, but the L. Chanceller remaineth the propounder so long as he is Chanceller. And this their tempora­rie Presidencie is for order (say they) nay it is for disorder, ordo est rationis. Aristotle in his physicks: To choose one this day, an­other to morow, and the third day choose a neewe, is a tumultu­ous order. Note this by the way: Their gouernour or president of order in euery meeting is to propound matters, to gather voy­ces viua voce, or by scrutinie: Ergo, some authoritie is left vnto him, for he is to propounde: Ergo, it is in his choyse to gather or scatter, to silence, or propound,Ethicorum. 3. eadem quae agere pos­sumus & non agere, which is as much in valewe, as a Warden a­mongst [Page 54]his schollers with a negatiue voyce, which is a great pre­eminence and Superioritie.

The 6. Obiection.

Paul was Superiour to Timothie and Titus.Demonstra­tor.

The Answere.

Paul and they had diuerse offices, Paul an Apostle, and they Euangelists ouer others.

Let him shewe me a reason,Remon­strance with reply. An Apostle being Superiour to an Euangelist, and he to a Pastor, &c. why a Byshop may not be Su­periour to a Pastor succeeding the Apostles: for if vos autem non sic doe take away all Superioritie, then an Apostle and euery Pa­stor is euery way equal, & a Pastor but equal with their lay Elder and Deacon. As for Paul Doctor Gentium a Doctor of the Gen­tiles, he was their Superiour, this is beyond all question: As for Titus and Timothie, if as you say they were Superiors as Euange­lists, Ergo, euery way Superior for Ecclesiasticall order ouer ordinarie Ministers.

It is an Absurditie to say,Absurditie of the Demon­strator. hee was Superior as an Euangelist, Ergo not Superior as a Byshop, sith hee that desireth a Byshop­ricke, praeclarum opus desiderat, desireth a good worke. Paul sayth, that Timothie worketh the worke of the Lord euen as he, 1. Cor. 16. But hence followeth not that he was an Apostle euen as Paul was, no more then hereof, that hee was an Euangelist. Or as well to make the holy Ghost say, Episcopatum eius accipiat alter, Let another take the Byshopricke of Iudas, but let no man take the Apostleship of Iudas.

The fallacie of this is the caption adidem, Our positiue lear­ning is better then your negatiue learning: they were Euange­lists in some maner signification as Preachers, but no such Euan­gelists as a seuerall office, Ephes. 4. as you imagine of them: for by their owne authoritie they did not plant Churches but by com­mission and teaching of Saint Paul: The one Timothie being [...] Prelate of the Ephesians,1. Thes. 5.12. 1. Tim. 3.14. Ephesus Metropoliticall citie of Asia where after his abode which Saint Paul requested of him for to stay, no where you can finde Saint Paul afterward to sende for him, especially from the date of writing the Epistle: The other [Page 55] Titus being Archbyshop of Crete (whether in that time or after times Crete were [...] or [...], as Homer [...] Iliad reporteth, hauing three or an hundreth cities) be it for ordeining or gouer­ning, the one & the other had Superioritie of all the Pastors there. Iustin Martir one of the next writers to the Apostles calleth Timothie [...] gouernour, or Prelate of the Church of Ephesus, which he could not call him if hee had bin chosen for one onely meeting or action. This worde in Plato 7. Epist. [...] is Prefect of a city, & therefore al his Superioritie was not so much of order as of greatnes in authoritie: and the Church from time to time hath admitted the title of, [...] ordeined by imposition of hands first or chiefe Byshop, not so much for time as dignitie, for he had to denounce and commaund, 1. Tim. 1.4. [...], that is, with power denounce and commaunde, with many other wordes in that Epistle importing his Iudiciall autho­ritie and Superiour dignitie.

The 3. Proposition of the Demonstrator.

None may be ordeined to an office in the Church vntill the place be voyde.Demonstra­tor.

The 1. Demonstration.

As was the twelfth place for Matthias, so is a certaine place for euery Church officer.

But Matthias was not ordeined to the place til Iudas had made it voyde by hanging himselfe. Ergo none is to bee ordeined before the place bee voyde.

Adde vnto this conclusion which you ought to do,Remon­strance. by hanging himselfe, or by lot: Or when an Apostleship falleth, or when euery twelfth place is voyde by such maner of Resignation,Absurditie of the Demon­strator. as hanging himselfe, or when Matthias commeth againe to bee chosen in Iudas place.

This Argument leapeth from one praedicament to another, from the praedicament agere, to vbi. He ordeined him to an office, Ergo to a place, and a certaine place: as if the Apostles were not to preach [...] in all the world.

The Maior proposition is false: For Christ appointed the num­ber of twelue such as had bin conuersant with him: so that there might of ye Apostles be no lesse or more, albeit he had 72. Disciples besides that had bin instructed by him, which were Euāgelists, but [Page 56]there is no set number of ordinarie Ministers prescribed to any nation which it may not come short of nor exceede. In one Church of Antioche, Ast. 13. was there not sundry both Pro­phets and Doctors there named? yet no stinted number, for it is there noted [...], as happely the Church then stood, and it stoode very flourishing without any such Eldership as is since dreamed of.

The 2. Demonstration.

As it was in the planting of the Church,Demonstra­tion. so in the building it must be for euer: But they ordeined neither Pastor nor Doctor, Deacon nor Elder, but to a place that had neede, Ergo nor wee vntill there be neede.

The Demonstrator concludeth in the third figure,Remon­strance. and neuer a mood. The Minor is negatiue, contrarie to all lawe of apt con­clusion.

To the Maior.

The Maior is too generall to be geneerally true: Prophecie, interpretation of tongues, giftes of healing, myracles were re­quisite in first planting of the Church, all which are not requi­red in building of the Church. In Salomons time Infidels did helpe to set vp the materiall Church which afterward were debarred to come in or prophane the Church.

To the Minor.

Howe prooue you the negatiue, vz. They ordeined neither Pastor, &c. vntill they had neede? Why there is alwayes neede. Messis multa operarij pauci: a great haruest, but fewe labourers. Yet this Donec might be well spared, vntill wee haue neede of it: for they neuer made any when any place was voyde, ex­cepting Matthias case which was a singular case. vna hirundo non facit ver: one swallowe maketh no sommer, vnlesse you meane of such an auoidance which is priuatione praeuia, where ne­uer any was before, and then it is true, but farre estranged from your meaning. In vacuum venerunt, they made these officers where neuer any were before, and quae nullius sunt in bonis cedunt occupanti.

To dismisse you without laughter due vnto your folly,Absurditie of the De­monstrator. let all the world iudge what a consequence this is.

In the beginning & first planting of the Church they baptized [Page 57]in theriuer, ergo we must christen our children in the riuer. The Churches were in priuate houses, ergo we must practise our re­ligion in our priuate parlours.

In the first they had communitie of goods [...] though not [...]. ergo, none may nowe possesse in vse ought that hee hath: but as they brought and layde it downe at the Apostles feete, e­uen so wee must lay downe our substance at the doctors and pa­stors feete.

As it was in the planting, so it must bee in the building of the church for euer: But Apostles the first planters were called by Gods owne immediate voyce being men vnlettered, to them were 72. euangelists adioyned and after prophets: ergo, the church must bee built by these and such like for euer, and conse­quently they are not ceased as elsewhere you affirme.

The 3. Demonstration.

These things that are of one beginning, continuance, and ending,Demonstra­tion. cannot be one before and after another.

But the minister and the execution of his ministery be relatiues, ergo, a minister ought not to bee ordeyned, before there bee a ministerie whereunto he is allotted.

To the Maior.

Albeit in this paralogisme are 4. termini, Remon­strance. because hee conclu­deth the ministerie of a certaine person, instead of the ministerie of a certaine place: yet my answere is, Those things &c. cannot be but one before and after another, that is, idem subiecto, one and the same in subiect, which is a contradiction to it self, that one thing is one and the same, and yet one and the same is prius & posterius seipso, before and after it selfe.

To the Minor.

But they are relatiues sayth the demonstrator: say I, not pro­per, but improper, viz. a minister and his ministerie to a determi­nate place: for a minister (if you will make a reference) is a mi­nister of a ministerie be it gospel or lawe, his ministerie is not pre­cisely tied to a certaine place, although his care must be to doe good at once in one place, his readines to do good, and that in e­uery place. God chose his Apostles, whome after his ascension hee sent into all places: They who conuert infidels, are not sure of intertaynement. This argument proceedeth not but retrocee­deth against themselues.

Those new fangled runners before they are sent,Retortion. haue no ordi­nation or designement to a certain place, ergo, their ministerie is a nullitie and without lawfull calling according to them selues, in whatsoeuer place, as if they will they shal heare in particular: for none more factious then those who haue no sette places but in­trude vpon others, and winne credit of zeale by nouelties and defacing of the ministers of the place.

The 4. Demonstration.

If none ought to bee called a shepheard that hath no flocke of sheepe to keepe,Demon­stration. nor watchman which is not allotted to a place to watch: then none may be ordeyned to any office before the place be voyd: the 1. is true, Ergo, the second.

I denie the antecedent and sequel of the same:Remon­strance. for a man may be called a shepheard and haue neuer a flocke of sheepe of his owne or others to keepe: as many poore men who are expert in the knowledge and are not worth a sheepe, or as Iacob he and his fathers were shepheards, & accounted themselues so in the pre­sence of Pharao, for that was their trade. Or a man may bee cal­led a captaine, if he haue instruction of military discipline, though he doe not euer leade a bande of souldiers: denomination is ra­ther of the habit then of the acte. If a shoomaker haue sold all his shoes, or a grasier all his cattell, belike their trades and names are cleane gone. Now farther to say, that none may be called to the promotion of a shepheard, vnlesse forthwith some man deliuer him a flocke of certaine sheepe, it is a pretie imagination, as if he could be his craftsmaster before his craftsman.

But to the sequel of the Antecedent, this is [...] to argue hee cannot bee made a shepheard before a place bee voyde, Ergo, hee cannot be made a minister before the place be voyde. This is easily auoyded: For no man is so made a minister for a particular parish or small precinct of place, as that his ministe­rie were gone, if the parish were dispeopled and the houses burnt vp, but hee is made a minister for the church of Eng­lande whersoeuer his seruice shall be required in the prouince or place. This is an olde stoppegamball.

No more coates then backes to weare them.

No more ministers then places to dispose them.

The ministerie shalbe like to a drawebridge: keepe them sure [Page 59]enough that are within, keepe them secure enough from dealing in the ministerie, who albeit of their pure zeale (as many with vs which would preache the gospel,) because of lacke of roome, shalbe faine to stand without.

The first therefore is false, and semblably the second.

How doth the olde rule holde nowe?

One shepheard must haue one flocke by their delineation, or many shepheards may not haue one flock for feare of thronging or intrusion: which otherwhiles they admit of the puritane trans­formation: vnum ad vnum est aptissimum, one is fittest for one: It is in very deede the best referencie: for one thing secundùm idem cannot haue sundrie relation.

The 5. Demonstration.

To doe contrary to the precept and practise of the apostles is vnlawfull.Demon­stration. To ordeine an officer without a certaine place is contrary: Ergo, vnlawfull. Titus. 1.5. acts. 14.23.

To the Maior.

To do contrary to the precepts and practise of the apostles is not euer vnlawfull as Act. 15.29.Remon­strance. v. is commanded Absteyne from blood and strangled: yet it is now lawfull to eate bloud, or stran­gled: therfore this vniuersall maior is false.

To the Minor.

To ordeine an officer without a place, or to ordeine many offi­cers in readines to doe office and seruice to the whole church, is not contrary to the practise or commaundement of the apostles in any of those places, but rather iustifiable out of the place, Act. 14.23. Paul and Barnabas returned to Lystra, and Iconium, and Antioche: [...], that is, ordeyned vnto them or for them pastoral elders in euery church, and com­mended them to the Lord in whome they had beleeued. They ordeyned pastoral elders in euery church, or in the church: howe followeth it hereof, that they did not or might not ordeine some ouer and aboue for the prouision of the whole church? like­wise out of the place, Tit. 1.5. v. It is an impossible collection:Absurditie of the De­monstrator. for this were handsome reasoning: I haue left thee to make pastorall elders [...] in euery citie, Ergo, make no elders nor ministers for the countrey: or I haue left thee to make el­ders for euery citie: Ergo, make iust no more elders then there be cities. Sometimes these fellowes would gather by the plurall [Page 60]number their laie elders from hence: They holde it pollicie of their church to make more Bishops then one,Rotortion. where the mainte­nance will stretch for one towne or citie, and why may not our vniuersities and cathedrall churches being colledges of the pro­phets, keepe within them as they do, and foster with their main­tenance, many ministers and pastorall elders to furnish towne and countrey?

The 6. allegation of the Demonstrator.Demonst. Conc. Chalced. Can. 6. Artic. 15

It was ordained that neither deacon nor elder nor other should be ordai­ned [...] that is loosely, but in a church, citie, or towne.

The wordes are Neminem absolutè, Remon­strance. id est, sine titulo: the excep­tion is, nisi in ecclesia suae ciuitatis siue possessionis, aut in martyrio aut in monasterio: There are exceptions ynough to authorise any or­dination in our church, sith many are ordained for our colledges and cathedrall churches &c. Great ods betweene absolutè et dis­solutè, which is to be let runne at randome,Demon­stration. Conc. Vrban. Test. Gra. c. tuum distinct. 70. as most of you are per­sons of no church and vicars of the same.

The 7. allegation of the Demonstrator.

The ordination that is made without a title, let it be voyd.

This is maruaile you will borrow out of Gratian, or out of the Canon lawe, Remon­strance. drawe cleare demonstration from puddle water, vnto which you often compare the Canon lawe: I perceiue euery place you can make must serue your turnes, yea puddle wharfe.

Your answere was before with the exceptions afore remem­bred. Besides, a title is not alwaies a charge or flocke: but an assig­nation of set maintenance, least they should begge cum dedecore clericalis ordinis, as the Canons speake.

The 8. allegation of the Demonstrator.

Hieronymus ad Nepotianum complained that ministers were ordeined being chosen by no church,Demonstra­tion. and so went here and there hauing no place.

There is no such matter to be found in S. Hierom as is here al­ledged:Remon­strance. but if Hierom had complained, belike hee did not com­plaine without a lawful cause: It is pitie and shame they should wander vp and downe: but this would haue argued, that abso­lute ordinations were then vsed: yet wee graunt the Canons (sa­uing in some cases) doe forbidde them as inconuenient, and so this church practiseth if the lawes be followed: if not, the men are blameable, not the lawes.

The 9. Allegation of the Demonstrator.

That action which is read to be practised neuer but by Idolaters, is vnlaw­full:Demonstra­tor. To haue wandring officers is so, Iudg. 17.8. Ergo vnlawfull.

This is [...] fight with a shadowe,Remon­strance. or to wander from the purpose: More is in the conclusion of the Syllogisme then in the premisses.

The question was of allotting Ministers to a place: the con­clusion is of a wandring apostacie or forsaking his ordination and his place. If there be any like Micah for entertaining such, or like the wandring Leuite that did goe from Bethlehem Iuda, from the better to the worse, and goe to dwell (as it is in that text) where he may finde a place: your selues are such hostes and such guestes, rather then we. For many amongst you are wan­dring starres and wayfaring mates, a life chosen by your selues, not imposed.

The Obiection of the Demonstrator.

Paul and Barnabas did wander. Ergo.Demonstra­tor.

Answere.

The Apostles office and the Euangelistes was to preach the worde and to plant Churches: But the order that they left is a president for vs, that euery Church should haue their proper officers, and that there be no other else where to be founde.

Bray a foole in a morter, hee will not leaue his folly,Remon­strance with replie. no more will this man his bable, nor babbling obiections: Paul and Bar­nabas did not wander (as in our behalfe you would seeme to ob­iect) but for the watring and planting of the Churches passed to and fro, as any may doe that haue care of many Congregations to visite them, or as Saint Paul who confessed solus ego, I onely haue care of all Congregations: this is [...] or incoherent, or a president neuer to be found. Euery Church must haue proper officers, Ergo, there are no other, nor ought to be els where any other found. Once againe, howe prooue those men a nega­tiue? This is to stoppe the encrease of Gods diuine grace: This is fine in conceite, Your gouerning Elders must be numerus infini­nitus, or indefinitus, Ergo, Absurditie of the De­monstrator. our Pastorall Elders must be nume­rus finitus, a certaine number: Why not sans number of those who to Godward are professed?

The third Chapter.

The Assertion of the Demonstrator.

EVery Church officer ought to execute his office,Demonstra­tor. and be continually resident on his charge.

The Demonstrator is too too peremptorie:Remon­strance. because he comprehendeth neither natural nor legal, nor other dispensation by the worde con­tinually. But let vs heare the Demonstration.

The 1. Demonstration.

A Shepheard hath a flocke continually to feede it.

The Minister is a Shepheard and his charge a flocke,Demonstra­tion. Ergo hee ought continually to feede it, and be resident vpon it.

What? continually feede? neither he is able to doe it, nor they to heare and digest it: Quod caret alterna requie, &c. What? ne­uer to the terme, or Parliament, though neither their Synode be called, nor they sent for? Neuer bring their wiues to Sturbridge fayre, nor to the Acte at Oxforde, nor to lye a dozen weekes or such a trifle at a friendes house? nor to ride halfe a sommer from countrey to countrey to confirme the brotherhood? What, not once in a fortnight to go downe by boat to London to learne newes, to conferre, and to buy some discipline papers? These be strong Demonstrations when the first is grounded on a metaphor.

To the Maior.

The Maior is false, whether yee vnderstande it properly or in allegoricall meaning of a shepheard, 1. Sam. 17.20, 28. [...], Dauid left his fathers sheepe with a keeper, and ranne into the campe: or as he is charged by his brother Eliab to leaue his fewe sheepe in the wildernes, and of a pride and malice of his heart to come into the battell.

To the Minor.

This is true, but metaphorically true, as Princes are also Shep­heards, both in diuine and prophane writings [...] Iliad: [...], 1. Reg. 22.17. all Israel scattered as sheepe vpon the mountaines, that had no Shepheard, that is, no King: Esai. 44.28. Cyrus my Pastor or Shepheard.

This is drawen into a goodly consequence.

A Shepheard must feede, Ergo, he may depute no man in his [Page 63]absence to feede.

Or, Princes being Shepheards may haue their Deputies and Lieutenants: Ergo, ministring Shepheards may not be al­lowed in their absence vnder Shepheards.

They that reason thus, En quò discordia ciues? See howe farre madnes and malice carieth man?

The 2. Demonstration.

Where God hath placed a man, there his trauaile is needefull:Demonstra­tion. But God hath placed euery Minister ouer the charge. Ergo.

This fallacie and all the other following to prooue this asserti­on,Remon­strance. proceede ex ignoratione elenchi: or as Aristotle speaketh, [...].

  • 1 When a mā hath not a discreet eie to see what is one & the same.
  • 2 What is diuerse from one and the same.
  • 3 What is different at diuers times.
  • 4 What in diuers respects.

The Maior is false: that where God hath placed a man, there his trauaile is onely, at all times, in all respects requisite, and in no other places requisite or needefull. A mans trauaile is there most requisite sometimes, whither the Spirite of God biddeth him come, as to S. Paul, [...], Come and helpe vs in Macedo­nia. Themselues both vpon cause of preaching in other Cures, and for no causes, are contrarie to this position in their practise.

The 3. Demonstration.

Flockes that are in danger must be watched night and day, Luke 2.8.Demonstra­tion.

Euery Congregation is a flocke in danger: 1. Pet. 5.8. Matt. 13.23. Ergo the Minister must watch night and day.

To the Maior.

So great is the discordance betweene your Maior and Minor, Remon­strance. as the difference is betweene sheepe and men: but I answere thus, If you meane one man may watch night and day without cea­sing or intermission, he must haue Argos eyes.

Centum fronte oculos, centum ceruice gerebat.

Argus, That whiles some wake others may fall a sleepe. As for the watch of the Shepheards, Luke 2.8. it was in the night: of a conuenience therefore their felowes did watch in the day. If you will deale so strictly to make no difference or partition be­tweene the night and the day, Saint Luke maketh it for you, that the Shepheards watched in the night.

If you will make ought good out of the place, it is thus: Those Shepheards did watch their flocke onely (for any thing there mentioned) in the night season, Ergo, Ministers must watch their flocke only in the night: nay, in and out of season must Mi­nisters watch their flocke, yet no mans labour and watch can be infinite beyond the measure of humane abilitie. As for the watch­fulnes of the Minister, it is in forewarning them of danger, albe­it he can not alwayes preserue them from the danger: Howbeit be the danger neuer so great, Gods power is made perfite in our infirmitie, we shall be able to saue some out of the fire and temp­tation of the deuill.

The 4. Demonstration.

If his duetie requireth so much trauaile,Demonstra­tion. as may continually set him on worke, then may he not be non Resident: But the former is true, Ergo the later.

I denie the Sequele of the Antecedent: Remon­strance. That therefore at no time, vpon no cause, vpon no commandement of his Superiour, for no Ambassage abroade, for no attendance vpon the Prince at home, for no prosecution of Lawe to keepe his right, for no re­pulsing of iniurie to recouer his right, for no seruice of ye Church, for no pacification of scisme, nor consultation about matters of the Church, finally for no remedie and restitution of health, hee may haue a Coadiutor or Substitute vnderneath him, or be non Resident from his Pastoral charge. The Puritanes confesse a man may be absent from his charge, which they can not denie: for both by their running vp and downe, that they practise at our Parliaments time, as also by those necessarie assemblies in their newe Synodes they allowe, Ergo, simply and absolutely to be non Resident is not vnlawfull, but when it is without iust cause. I pray you who did dispense with Fenne and Knewstubs for their absence from their Cures, whom I sawe in the lowe countreys? Except halfe a yeeres absence or more be residence: You must allowe as large measure to others as to your owne pew-fel­lowes.

The 5. Demonstration.

If the Ministers cannot faithfully apply themselues to the capacitie of the people,Demonstra­tion. but by knowledge of their disposition: Then is non Residency vnlawful: But the former is true, Ergo, the later.

I deny the sequele of ye Antecedent as before:Remon­strance. for they may know [Page 65]their disposition, without being chained in perpetuall prison to them: and non residency is not absolutely against the law of God or directly: for if it were simply impious, then for none occasion, no not for an houre might a man be away, (no more then hee may for an houres space in his whole life vse blasphemy against God,) but by euent and by the way of consequence: quatenus so farre forth as they who are the people of God, are destitute of spirituall foode: which I hope in our congregations seldome fal­leth out by any such euent. It is thought nowe a dayes, multum scientiae parum conscientiae, too much knowledge or science, in re­spect of so litle conscience.

Albeit no man euer as yet defended an absolute estranging of the pastors from the charge: yet the teacher being occasionly ab­sent, may apply himselfe fructfully both elsewhere, and to them also by other directions: euen as S. Paul himselfe by letters and epistles, when he heard but by hearesay contentions were risen amongst them, he suppressed the contentions.

The 6. Demonstration.

If the ministers of the gospel bee as narrowly tied to their charges as the priests of the lawe, then they may not be non resident, Demon­stration. for they were alway rea­die in the temple to answere doubts. 1. Sam. 19. But &c. Ergo,

Eodem modo opponenti eodem modo respondendum est: Remon­strance. For him that hath but one manner play one manner of defense is good ynough: This argument of Type and proportion is sure to be one: An impudent man will neuer be answered. I answere as before: Gods law and nature dispense with non residence in diuerse cases, although the one and the other be narrowly tyed to the ministe­rie, vnder the gospell and the lawe.

To the Prosyllogisme.

For they were alwayes ready &c. Here is a good Illatiue 1. Sam. 9. Ely the priest sat vpon a stoole by one of the posts of the temple of the Lord: ergo, what? Ergo, Ely was tied to residencie in the temple, all exigencie of busines whatsoeuer layd apart, as it were vnto a post. Or as well thus: Ely the priest in the temple sate vpon a stoole: Ergo, a man may say to one of you for ma­king this wise argument: Accipe stultum et sede, take a stoole, and be resident continually vpon it. Why man, they did not lie in the temple, but had their seuerall habitations: and they waited in course, as appeareth in the story of Zacharie in S. Luke.

The 7. Demonstration.

If the minister must be an example,Demonstra­tion. then he must be present, but the first is true, Ergo, the second.

By these & like arguments,Remon­strance. the ministers must be pinned vpon the peoples sleeue: as for the place alleadged 1. tim. 4.12. Timothie was an example [...] as well absent as present. It is the image of the vertue, not so much the corporall presence that serueth for imitation. Hath not Christ left vs an example of himselfe be­cause he is not corporally present?

The 8. Demonstration.

He whome the people must know by the voyce,Demon­stration. and follow in and out, must be continually resident: But the first is true. Ioh. 10.4. Ergo,

To the Maior.

Vpon this phrase of speach continuall residence, Remon­strance. I distinguish. There is continuall in time, and there is a residence to be continu­ed for the discharge of the dutie of the cure: A man may be a re­siant and do no office & seruice but bodily reside vpon the cure, as many of those vnlettered reformitans, velut incubus & succubus lye vpon and vnder the cure, as a burden and vnder a burden.

To the Minor.

As for the place of Iohn, it is meant of Christ who is the high shepheard and Bishop of the church, vnto whose perfection wee must drawe our selues neere.

The 9. Demonstration.

None can be ready to feede his flocke that is absent:Demon­stration. Euery minister must be ready to feede his flocke. Ergo.

To the Maior.

This silly argument is answered before, being all one with the 1.Remon­strance. Demonstration of this 3. cap.

His readinesse may be per se aut vicaria fide. By himselfe or his sufficient deputie.

The Demonstrator is like to Anaxagoras: Anaxagoras vocem suam ignorauit: forgetteth his own word and voice. In steade of vrging continuall residence here is nothing else but continuall Tautologie.

The 10. Demonstration.

He that must take heede to his flocke must be resident continually.Demonstra­tion.

Euery minister must to so. Act. 20.28. ergo,

To the Maior.

The maior is true leauing out the word continually and with the former limitations.Remon­strance.

The minor out of the acts 20. must bee vnderstood for atten­dance on the flocke with the due exceptions: if his employment may be there with most conuenience of doing good, be it ouer a whole prouince or in a particular church: for else howe durst S. Paul haue at that time sent for them out of their cures, and if it had bene but for an houre?

The 11. Demonstration.

If Sathan bee the cause of non residence, then it is vtterly vnlawfull:Demon­stration. But Sathan is the cause, 1. Thes. 2.17, 18. Ergo.

To the Maior.

Although Sathan &c. yet it is not vtterly vnlawfull:Remon­strance. for albeit Sathan may bee cause of retchlesnesse and carelesnesse in some, Sathan is not cause of non residence in all.

This maior seemeth to import this.

Whatsoeuer Sathan is the cause of, is vtterly vnlawfull:

To giue an instance: Sathan was the cause of Christs setting vpon a pinnacle of the temple: ergo Christ standing vpon a pin­nacle of the temple is vtterly vnlawfull by this plausible maior.

Sathan is the cause of persecution and chaines: yet to suffer persecution and chaines is not vnrighteous and vnlawfull.

To the Minor.

Sathan out of that. 1. thes. 1.17.18. v. is the cause of non residen­cie, Demonstra­tor maketh S. Paul write false diuinitie. saith the demonstrator. These ioly gentlemen make. S. Paul write good diuinitie. Sathan hindered me, that is, caused me to do an vngodly and vnlawfull thing, viz. to be a non resident, nay ra­ther vnderstand S. Paul thus: Sathan raised persecution against me: or sometimes Sathan causeth persecution, persecution feare, feare feeblenesse of faith and timorousnesse of conscience, that same in weake brethren causeth loue of the present world, & con­sequently a finall & vtter discontinuance, which you may rather say to be the cause of dissolute non residence, which God forbid you should rightly deeme to haue bene in S. Paul.

The 12. Demonstration.

That which abridgeth the loue of God to his people,Demon­stration. and comfort to his minister, that is vnlawfull: but non residence &c. Ergo.

This & the next demostrations are far fetcht & worth nothing.Remon­strance.

To the Minor.

Answere is: non residence or absence for a time in some regard for the greater good of other congregations, doth rather pro­cure the fauour of God and consolation of the whole estate of Christes church: And therefore a false minor.

The 13. Demonstration.

That which hindereth loue betweene the minister and the people,Demon­stration. that is vnlawfull: But non residence &c. Ergo,

What an easie way of demonstration hath the demonstrator attayned vnto?Remon­strance.

To the Maior.

The maior is not precisely true: for to reprooue the people of their faultes and to rebuke them sharply maketh lesse loue be­tweene some people and the minister, which neuerthelesse is a thing most lawfull: Non residencie amongst some of your secta­ries would be a cause of more loue and charitie amongst gods people, some amongst you being firebrands of sedition: and therefore better is your roome then company.

To the Minor.

All absence with deputation of an able minister effecteth nei­ther so nor so.

The 14. Demonstration.

To be absent from those who haue neede of vs,Demon­stration. is vnlawfull.

But the congregation hath neede of vs, Ergo, vnlawfull.

Syllogizari non est exparticulari. Remon­strance.

To be absent from one man or one particular congregation is not vnlawfull, his employment being otherwise beneficiall. I might reason as well thus:Absurdity of the demon­strator.

To be absent from those who haue neede of vs is vnlawfull.

The church of Ephesus had neede of Timothie, the church of Galathians and Corinthians neede of Paul: Ergo, Pauls and Timo­thies absence were both vnlawfull. Or after this wise.

To be absent from those that haue neede of vs is vnlawfull.

The Paynims and heathen in America & terra australi where no church is, haue neede of vs, Ergo, our absence is vtterly vn­lawfull. This fallacion is secundum quid ad simpliciter.

The 15. Demonstration.Demon­stration.

If the priests might not dwell farre from the temple, then the mini­sters [Page 69]may not be non Resident. But the first is true. 1. Chron. 28. ca. 13. v. ergo, the second.

I may argue as substantially and as well.Remon­strance.

If the Exchequer men must of conueniencie dwell neere to Westminster hall, and the singing men of Paules neere there a­bouts: ergo, they must neuer goe out of the place.

The place which you alledge, is. Dauid gaue to Salomon a pa­terne of the courts of the house of God, and for all the chambers round about, which serue for the treasures of the house of God, and for the treasures of the dedicate things, and for the courses of the Priestes and Leuites. Now the later may expound the for­mer: ergo, the Priestes and Leuites waited in their courses. It pro­ueth not an indefatigable or continuall howrely attendance. You deale hardly to make them de genere affixorum, or to naile them to a place.

The 16. Demonstration or Allegation.

Let no Clerke be placed in two charges, for it is filthie merchandize,Demonstra. Concil. Nic. c. 15. &c. No man can serue two Maisters, Let euery one tarrie in the place where he is called.

The olde prouerbe is now verefied, [...],Remon­strance. Like egge like birde, like master like man. T.C. the maister misalledged the Councell, and so doeth Ʋ. D. his yeoman. See the 247. pag. of the Defense of the answere to the Admonition.

These men to euict their purpose, will not refuse omne genus testium, etiam ab inferis, viz. the most blasphemous, corrupt and depraued, the 2. Councell of Nice, which to bleare mens eies withall, they call simply the Councell of Nice. Out of this Coun­cell they may proue adoration of reliques, inuocation of Saintes, worshipping of images with the same worship that the Trinitie is worshipped, if they wil take farder serious counsel in the cause. I may say of them, as Seneca said of a wanton Poet, Non ignorauit sed amauit sua vitia, they cannot be ignorant, but they loue their owne faults and errors. Let no man, &c. in the ende of the canon in Regia ciuitate, be placed in moe great cities then one. In other towneships and villages it is lawful, and so Gratian expoundeth, Caus. 20. quaest. 1. Clericus, and the Councell of Chalcedon, and the glose. A man may be intituled to two Churches, if they be poore and with dispensation, or by way of trust or Commendam. As for allegation, 6. Matth. No man can serue two maisters, that is, con­trarie [Page 70]Masters, God and Beliall, God and Mammon. For the other place, 1. Cor. 7. Let a man tary in his vocation, that is, his kinde of vocation, not in the locall place. These fallacies are fallacies figu­rae dictionis. This therefore must be the meaning of the place: Let no man, &c. without abilitie to discharge them both, be placed in two charges, or let no man make a filthie lucre of his charge.

The 17. Allegation or Demonstration.Demonstra­tion.

Damasus compareth them that set ouer their charges, to harlots that put out their children,Concil. com. 2. &c. to nurse, to giue themselues to more pleasure.

This man heard T. C. say it was in the second Tome of Coun­cels,Remon­strance. which is in the first. See what it is to take euery thing by heare-say. Damasus in his epistle, speaketh against Chorepiscopi, which occupied ye place of their bishoprikes, & some part of their office, as consecration of Priestes, Deacons, and Virgines, imposi­tion of handes, dedication of Churches, who were both insolent themselues, and made others their bishops liue in pleasure and idlenes. This concerneth nothing honest, learned, and sufficient Curates.

If you thinke your owne wife, or any other (onely for putting out their children) within the compasse of an harlot, you are within the compasse of a iealous headed foole. It were more rea­sonable to iudge her so, if she were with childe before you mari­ed her.

The 18. Allegation or Demonstration.

It was ordeined that none,Demonstra. either Bishop or Elders, should goe from Citie to Citie.Theodor. l. 1. c. 9.

The place is in the Ecclesiasticall historie of Theodoret, Remon­strance. albeit you quote it not. Theodoret speaketh of Eusebius Nicomediensis, an Arrian, who leauing Nicomedia, Ad sedem Constantinopolita­ni Episcopatus per ambitum arrepsit, idque contra Ecclesiae canonem, qui vetat tum Episcopos, tum Presbyteros de vnius ciuitatis sede, ad al­terius sedem transferre, who translated himselfe by sute and am­bition from one Church to another, for as it is in the same Theo­doret: Cùm ei Beryensis Ecclesiae administratio concredita esset, inde ad Nicomediae Episcopatum gerendum se transtulit, where he was Gouernour of the Church of Beria, he translated him selfe to Ni­comedia, and from the bishoprike thereof to Constantinople, lea­ping from Church to Church by sute after the promotion, and [Page 71]contrarie to the Canon of the Church, which forbiddeth ambiti­on and sute both vnto Priestes and Bishops, and translation from one See to another of their owne heades, without a cause allow­ed by their Superiors, according to the seuerall orders of euery Church.

The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

Two parishes may be vnited: ergo, one may haue charge of them,Demonstra­tor. when they are two, or diuided.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

One sheepheard may keepe one flocke being great, but not two flockes be­ing litle, going in diuerse pastures.

That is falsly answered:Remon­strance with replie. for Iacob in the 30. Genes. kept Labans and his owne flocke of sheepe, and put them in diuerse pastures. As for the obiection, when they are diuided, his paines are the greater: he must repaire to them but in the vnion, (whatsoeuer is the distance) they must repaire to him, except it be otherwise es­pecially prouided.

The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

Parishes were diuided by men, by the Monke Denys Pope of Rome.Demonstra­tion.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

That is vntrue: for the Apostles in the Actes diuided the Churches into Congregations.

Nay that is more vntrue. This is as the Schoolemen speake, [...],Remon­strance with reply. a very barbarisme or nugation: for it followeth, that they diuided Churches into Churches, for the Church al­waies is a Congregation. You might haue quoted, if you had a quote, where the Apostles by constitution did diuide nationall Churches into Diocesses, or Diocesses into Parishes. The Coun­cell of Nice in very deede appointed to bishops certaine of them their bounds and limits of iurisdiction, though sun­drie bishoprikes were appointed before. In which di­uision, the diuision of the ciuil state of Rome in­to Prouinces, Diocesses, Prefectures,De Rep. Rom. &c. was for the most part followed, as Lazius testifieth.

The fourth Chapter.

Assertion of the Demonstrator.

IT belongeth to the Church to elect the Officers which Christ would haue placed,Demonstra­tion. and not to the Patrons, &c. Therefore that which is practised in the Church of Eng­land, must returne to Antichrist.

The practise of this Church is neither of [...],Remon­strance. false Christ, nor of Antichrist, but drawne from the purest times of the Primitiue Church. For neither in the Apostles times, nor any times after (that I can reade of) is there pregnant proofe to be found, that for the choise and ordination presbyteri alicuius, of any priest or pastorall elder onely (for there were no Lay elders heard of) any moe then one bishop was re­quired. In deede when a bishop was to be chosen, it is often to be founde in the Primitiue Church, that the priestes or pastorall el­ders which for most part then liued in the great cities, where bi­shops Sees were planted, (though according as the bishops thought good they were sent out into the territorie a dioyning, to preach, baptize, and minister the supper) being with the people assembled, and often with the Metropolitane, and some other bishops direction, did nominate whome they thought good to haue chosen for their bishop, whome if the people liked, they would crie, Dignus est, iustus est, he is well worthie, he is a iust man. If they liked him not who was named, they would with great clamours, yea often times with outrages of blowes and murther, importune them to another nomination. So that there was no scrutinie of suffrages of the people, as hauing interest, but a tumultuarie proceeding, and acclamation or exclamation of the multitude present at such actions. Therefore the olde Canons speaking hereof, doe vse for the most part, but the wordes Testi­monij ciuium, & conscientiae populi, of testimonie of Citizens, and knowledge of the people, with which these elections of bishops onely were made: but because they breede great tumults, sediti­on, and murders (as the ancient Fathers, and histories of the Church testifie) they were abrogated both by counsell and ap­pointment of Christian Emperours (vpon whome by lawe the people in al matters had bestowed their whole right) since which [Page 73]time the priests of seuerall Sees in the name of the rest (which we cal now the Chapters of Cathedral Churches) haue had the ele­ction of their bishops, being (if the Emperour or prince thought good) directed to some one speciall man by his nomination.

In England according to the auncient common law of the land, the prince granteth leaue to the Chapter to elect a bishop to the void See, which licence is called Conge d'eslire, and withall sendeth letters to them, nominating him whom her maiestie vp­on graue aduise of her honourable counsell, iudgeth fit, requi­ring their choise of him. The election being made, she giueth her roiall assent vnto it, requiring the Archbishop to confirme the e­lection if it be dulie & canonically made, & after with two other bishops, to consecrate the elect: the day and place for confirma­tion whereof, is published a competent time afore, that if anie thinke good to propound against the person of the man or forme of election, they may be heard. After this confirmation, follow­eth the consecration according to the prescription of the booke: then is the bishop to doe his homage personallie to her maiestie for his temporall reuenues, and after to haue them restored vnto him. Now to the temporalties of a bishoprike, a Baronrie by law is annexed, whereby he is a lord of the parliament.

Other ministers in the dioecesse are to be examined, approo­ued and ordained by the bishop, hee and such other ministers as be present at the ordination, laying their hands vpon them. And when any is presented to a set place or benefice by the patrone thereof, the bishop is to examine his life and learning, and to in­stitute him in title thereunto after hee haue approoued of him. This course of placing in the title of certaine roumes or benefi­ces grew by these degrees and meanes, which will not be amisse also to point at, because many that will needs be medling, either know it not, or are wilfullie ignorant.

At first (as was shewed afore) the bishop and all his clergie li­ued in a kind of communitie in the citie, wherof he bare the name of bishop, he and they going abroad at certaine most conuenient times to preach and minister the Sacraments in the territorie ad­ioining: at what time all Church reuenues of the whole dioecesse, whether landes, tithes, oblations or legacies, were in common amongst them, but at the distribution of the bishop. One fourth [Page 74]part whereof was emploied pro mensa episcopali, for the B. hospi­talitie: another to maintaine those of the Clergie: the third, for building and repairing the churches of the citie, & rest of the dioe­cesse: the fourth, for redemption of captiues, for the poore & for other godly vses.

But when sundry persons, partly vpon deuotion, and partly the rather induced to haue the nominating of a Minister there­to, had built and endued diuers Churches in places farre distant in the countrey abroad, so that so many seuerall parishes could not conueniently nor so often be respected by those who atten­ded alwaies about the Bishop (sauing at certaine set times) and that the former cōmunitie began through multitude of the clergy (being for the most part in one place) and sundry other inconue­niences to bee ouer-troublesome and also enuious: then in most parts of the christian world, they grew to a diuision of all ye church reuenues, so that the bishop, the clergie that was to remain in the cathedrall church of the chiefe citie, and the clergie of the rest of the dioecesse, had euery of them their seuerall portions allotted, as was thought expedient. Out of which, euerie of them seuerallie besides their owne maintenance, was afterward to defray for the reparation of the fabrikes that were to be vpholden by them, & to relieue the poore, &c. as their seuerall abilities should serue. In so much as the bishop, who first was as a common past our of the whole dioeces, as the common law also at this day doth account him, and had afore (towards the vses aforesaid) the common re­uenues of the Church in title as a kind of proprietarie himselfe, did then at the presentation of the founders or Patrons, to whom the Canons gaue that preheminence (in regard of their cost be­stowed) call other ministers in partem sollicitudinis, into a part of the charge, and by institution of them vnto seuerall churches and the reuenues thereof, did as it were inuest them to the title of that part of Glebe, tithes, &c. which was accounted as his own afore, but vnto the said vses, which course now hath continued many hundred yeeres downe vnto these times.

It resteth to consider what the Demonstrator can prooue therein to be impious, and to be returned againe to Antichrist, as proceeding from him being Antichristian.

The 1. Demonstration.

The constant practise of the Apostles Church must be folowed. 1. Tim. 6.14.Demonstra­tion.

The constant practise of the Church was to chuse her officers: Ergo, It be­longeth to the Church to chuse her officers. Act. 1.6. Act. 6.5. Act. 14 25.

Here be quatuor termini: for in stead of must be followed, is put belongeth to the Church: which is the conclusion,Remon­strance. but is in neither of the premisses: and besides the Maior speaketh of the Church, which is the Apostles, and therefore a Paralogisme. Besides it is vntrue, for their constant practise was to abstaine from blood and strangled, to celebrate the supper at night, to prophecie in course so many as thought good, not to weare any thing at all on their heads at praier, and to speake strange languages in the con­gregation, 1. Cor. 14. which need not be followed of vs.

To the Minor.

I denie the constant practise of the Apostles to haue bene, or to be prooued out of those places in the Acts. Mathias was im­mediately chosen by God vnto the Apostleship by casting lots: ergo, by no free election of the people. The word [...], they did pro­pound or nominate, is not necessarilie to be referred to all then as­sembled, viz. 120. but rather to the 11. Apostles there particular­ly reckoned and named: Otherwise we should say that the apo­stles wiues, and Mary the mother of Iesus had an interest also in this nomination and propounding, which our discipliners will not in their owne platforme admit: but whosoeuer propounded those two men, sure it is, they which propounded them, did not elect them, for they were referred to Gods owne election by lot: Shew which of them thou hast chosen. If this example must alwaies be followed, then the Church shall onely and alwaies haue the nomination of two to bee chosen, but shall haue none election, which neuerthelesse is the thing shot at. Thē also shall there need no fasting nor any ordination by imposition of hands, for neither of these was here vsed. If they say somthing herein was ordinarie, something extraordinarie, why do they then by this place vrge a constant practise of the church? and let them prooue also by scrip­ture how much is ordinarie, how much extraordinarie not to be pursued by vs. But let vs see also what constant practise agreeing with ye other two places, or wt your own vsage, you can find in the election of the 7. chosen, [...], yt were to serue table.Acts. 6

They were such as the Lord gaue none expresse cōmandement to be ordained, but grew by a collateral occasiō, viz. the grudge of the Greekes against the Hebrewes, and the toile which the Apo­stles through the nūber of beleeuers were drawen into ministring alone to all the holy supper at their [...], Loue-feasts. They were but 7. chosen for the Church at Ierusalem vpon that special occa­sion, & to serue tables at the Loue-feasts. The course of circūstan­ces in which feasts is ceased, & therfore this choise is an vnfit rule to exact all elections of church officers vnto. Because these seuen called commonly Deacons were chosen, must ministers of the word needs iumpe iust with them? Must all officers needs haue all circumstances in their elections alike? What Logike is this thus to reason à disparatis adidem? The 12. Apostles in this action cal­led the disciples together, propounded & perswaded the matter, told them the number & qualities of those men to be chosen, but for auoiding suspition of partialitie, & appeasing the mutinie, per­mitted the whole electiō to the number of the disciples. And shal we therfore in all elections giue to the wisest & learnedst BB. and other ministers of the Church, no further direction, sway or inte­rest, but permit all elections & the maner of thē to the rest of the Church? why this our platformers themselues will not like. For their presbyteries haue the entire nomination and election of all, and the people must allow of their choise, if a cause sufficient bee notalleaged, though all els were against it. Of the sufficiencie of which cause, the eldership themselues be iudges, sauing that the latest platformes for choise of a minister, wil haue some other mi­nister neere to lay on handes with the laie elders, least also they should seeme to giue that functiō, which none of thēselues haue. In this action [...], and [...], euen all the whole multitude was called and vsed in election: but women, children, and youths, the discipliners themselues will exclude from giuing voices. When the multitude had chosen thē, they presented thēto the Apostles: but our elderships wil first haue both nominatiō & election, and thē they wil present the elected to the people. Here neither the Apostles nor the multitude are said to haue fasted, and therfore not to be presumed where the holy ghost in wisedome hath omitted to mention it, as themselues reason, when it serueth their turnes. But the examples Acts 13.14. (not touched by the [Page 77] Demonstrator) do mention fasting, & the platformers do necessa­rily require it in all ecclesiastical elections. The apostles after prai­er made, without further inquisition or examination into the per­sons do only lay hands vpon thē, the ministerie of the word & sa­craments being included in their apostleship. But our platformers (I hope) will not refuse hereupon all examination of those who first are elected by the multitude, and yet being meere lay elders, wil presume to impose hands, not onely vpon Deacons, but also vpon ministers of the word, function & offices which themselues haue not, & this they do where their discipline is alredie planted: but where it is to be planted, there (I thinke) as the people shall chuse, so shall they also ordaine & impose hands vpon the mini­sters, then they vpō the elders, & the ministers & elders both vpō the Deacons, after which time the people for euer shall giue vp this office. Here by the way we note, that this notable Apostoli­call Church established at Ierusalem, was without any lay mini­string Eldership, which might impose hands and ordaine Dea­cons, which they would not so long haue lacked, if Christ by dic ecclesiae, had so long afore appointed and commaunded it: by which foundation laid, thus I retort.

The constant practise of the Apostles church must be folowed.

In the election of church officers, Act. 6.1. appeareth no constāt practise of ye Apostles church: ergo, In those elections appeareth nothing that must be folowed. And againe of the contrary thus.

That which differeth from the practise of the apostles church, must not be folowed.

The platformers elections (as in sundry points is shewed here) differeth from the practise of the Apostles Church Ergo, the plat­formers elections must not be folowed.

Now for the 14. Act. 25. v. Paul & Barnabas ordained ministers with praier & fasting, [...]: ergo, they ordained them without election of the people, because no mentiō is made of the election or approbation of the people, antecedent or subsequent.

The place serueth to prooue, the right of election and ordina­tion whatsoeuer was in Paul and Barnabas, and not any wise in the people, as it is an inuincible argument to bee gathered out of the wordes, if the Demonstrator did vnderstand, or T.C. (for all his bragging) a Greeke text aright. When they had ordained vnto [Page 78]them ministers or pastorall elders: for one & the same in one respect cannot be ordainer, & those for whom they were ordained: the consequence therfore is, they did not ordaine with them, or with the promiscuous multitude, but for thē: for here be three sundrie persons mentioned, [...] the ordainers Paul and Barnabas: [...], priests or ministers ordained, and [...], for the Chur­ches of Antioch, Iconium, Lystra and Derbe.

That it must so be vnderstood, appeareth thus. Those which preached and taught, v. 20. comforted the mindes, and exhorted v. 21. praied with fastings, v. 22. [...], it was they which (as I translate it) by imposition of hands ordained ministers vnto those chur­ches, for all those participles haue none other verbe to relate vn­to. But Paul and Barnabas were the persons onely that preached, &c. Ergo, they only were the persons that so ordained ministers. But against this cleare light they seeke to shadow themselues by the doubtful and heathenish interpretation of this word [...], which signifying by etimologie to stretch out the hand, they say is an allusion to the maner and custome of the multitude in some popular common wealths of Greece, to signifie their assents by lifting vp their hands to matters proposed. To grant thē that such custome was somewhere amongst the Grecians (though rarely) obserued: is it likely that this confused course was thence bo­rowed, and brought into the Church by the Apostles? Nay rather as vpon a custome not vnlike vsed amongst the Romanes, all that doe assent by what gesture soeuer, euen at this day may not vn­aptly be said in Latine, Pedibus ire in sententiam, so was this word [...], drawen from that vsage to any ordaining or appoin­ting of men to functions, in what maner soeuer by one or moe, as may appeare by infinite places in the purest Greeke writers, pro­phane and diuine. One example in S. Luke himselfe, Acts 10. v. 41. may suffice, where ye same word is vsed, viz. [...], witnesses afore ordeined for the ordination and choise that God himselfe made of his apostles. And the like is said Act. 22. v. 14. of Paul, yt God did ordaine him to know his will, [...], a word deriued of the hand. They might hereof then as wel gather, & so might as probably translate those places, as they doe this place, that the Apostles & Paul were chosen not only by God, but by the suffrages of the people also, & that testified by lifting vp of their [Page 79]hands (a thing absurd to be deemed): and is not this a pretie opi­nion & sufficiently wel grounded, to trouble the church with, that is built vpon nothing sauing the doubtfull interpretation of one single word? This is no maruel: for in trueth vpō the diuers inter­pretations of 8. or 10. such wordes in the testament, is the whole frame almost of the new platforme builded, as were easie to bee shewed in his due place. Because they wil not beleeue me perhaps herein, let thē for the true vnderstanding hereof, peruse al the old Latin translations to be found, & the fathers Greek & Latin, that euer either writ of this place, or haue occasion to vse the word for ordination of ministers, & they shal find yt it importeth no creatiō or election by suffrages of the people, but ordination with laying on of hands: for if it should not here so signifie, we should be dri­uen to confesse that Paul & Barnabas laid not their hands of the ministers whom they ordained.Chrysost. in Act. 6. homil. 13. S. Chrysostome an ancient Greeke father, and Archb. of Constantinople, thus writeth, Nō dicit quomo­do, &c. he telleth not how (saith he) but simplie saith that they were or­dained by prayers: for this is [...], that is, ordination. The hand is laid vpon the man, but it is God who worketh all, and it is his hand that doth touch the head of the ordained, if he be ordained as he ought. And S. Hierome most plainly:Hierom. in 58. Isaiae. Three other interpreters (saith he) did tran­slate the word [...], a finger stretched forth, but the most of vs do in­terprete it the ordination of clergie men, which is performed not alone by the praier of the voice, but by the laying on of hands. But if the De­monstrator meant not deceitfully, why did he not (for proofe of the constant practise of the Apostles church herein) produce all ordinations of ecclesiastical persons to any function in the whole testament? Forsooth he saw, the further he waded, the lesse likeli­hood of his purpose. For in Act. 13. the 4. prophets & doctors of Antioch, beside Paul, did wt praier, fasting, and laying on of hands, ordaine & separate Paul & Barnabas to that holy function, which ye spirit there called thē vnto. Here are no traces of peoples pro­pounding, electing, or of any eldership to concur wt these ecclesia­stical ordainers, yet was it then a most famous Church. In 1. Tim. 3.4. &c. he is taught the qualities of bishops & Deacons, and pre­cepts are giuen to him yt he might know how to conuerse & be­haue himself in ye church of God, 1. Tim. 3. 1. Tit. & Titus was left by Paul in ye Isle of Candie to supply yt which wanted, & to ordain [Page 80]bishops and ministers in the congregations, as S. Paul had afore prescribed to him. In both which whole epistles, not the least ti­dings are to be learned of any popular or Oligarchical intermed­ling in elections of people, or of any such elders. The conclusion therefore is, that there is neither constant nor inconstant rule and practise of perpetuall election by the people from any example of the Acts, or other part of the new testament.

The 2. Demonstration.

If the people had interest in the liking of their teaching Leuites, Demonstra­tion. Then much more the people now. But the first, ergo the second Num. 8. v. 9.

I like not this maner of dealing in your owne respect,Remon­strance. to de­riue your presbyterie from Sanedrim, and your election from the ceremoniall law: for all this tendeth vnto Iudaisme, and wil ouer­throw your whole platforme.

To the Antecedent and sequele of the same.

If you conclude for your purpose, you meane by Interest in li­king, viz. your election: for other liking is not woorth the liking. Euen with vs (whom you do mislike) the people may shew their cause of dislike, & the minister be disauthorized. You would rea­son à fortiore, but ye reason procedeth ab infirmitate. Admit (which ought not to be granted) ye people might chuse Leuites vnder the ceremonial law, they cannot chuse after ye abrogatiō of the same.

The sequele of the Maior is not good, for whatsoeuer was then vsed towards the Leuites, though happily it might now be vsed, yet doth it not follow that of necessitie it must now so be.

To the Assumption.

But they had &c. No forsooth: It was a ceremonie of offering and purifying instituted in that place, not of election of the Le­uites: for God had chosen them before, Num. 3. I cannot maruell sufficiētly at the strange boldnes of this sort of men. The purpose here is to prooue election of church officers by the whole church: but now he telleth vs onely of a liking the people must haue. He speaketh when the Leuites are to bee elected, Num. 3. & 8. the place is when they are to be offered, for all the Leuites male are elected and destina­ted from their birth to the seruice of the priests in the taberna­cle, in stead and redemption of all the first borne of the people, whom the Lord had consecrate vnto himselfe, which was the cause why the people laied their handes on the Leuites heads, [Page 81]when they were to be offred, as yeelding them vp in their steeds to that seruice. This offring of them was after 25. yeeres of their age, and they serued till 50. He telleth vs of teaching Leuites, the place is of all the Leuites male, to serue the priestes about dres­sing the sacrifices in the Tabernacle of the congregation. Shall we say that all the 20. thousand Leuites that were then dedica­ted to this seruice, and all their successors proued learned, & able to teach, and did they in deede all teach in the Tabernacle? And did euery one of all the children of Israel lay his hand vpon euery Leuites head that was offred, which is the ground worke of the whole peoples interest in election that should hereof be proued? As the people laide their hands on the Leuites, so did the Leuites on the heads of the bullocks, shall this also be retained among Christians? Why they themselues doe not require nor allowe the people to lay hands vpon the elected, but onely the eldership. And because here the people laide on hands, had they authoritie to allowe or disallow of them, whome the Lorde had chosen a­fore? Moses the ciuill Magistrate is commanded to take them in­definitely, therefore al Leuites of those yeeres, and to cause them to be purified: likewise to cause the congregation of Israel to be assembled, and to bring the Leuites before the Lord: but Aaron and his sonnes the priestes did onely offer them, and (as it were) by sacrifice consecrate them to the seruice in the Tabernacle. Shall then our ciuill Magistrate be permitted so much in Church elections, as here Moses was? and will they be content that the lowe degree Ecclesiasticall be consecrated and ordeined by the greater (as here) and not the greater by the lesse? as they absurd­ly doe ordeine ministers, by the handes of vnministring Lay el­ders? When we vrged a lawfulnes of superioritie and degrees in Ecclesiasticall persons, by the like equitie vnder the lawe, yea e­uen among priestes themselues, one being aboue another, then (said they) all was but ceremoniall, and there was an high priest onely for a type of Christ, and not for any direction or gouern­ment belike. But when we cal for proofes of their presbyteries and perpetuitie of them, then did they make Pastours answere to Priestes, Doctors to Leuites, Lay elders to I know not what Go­uernours, and Deacons to Keepers of the treasurie,Counterpoi­son. so that the Hi­erarchie in the olde, was thus to be columned in the newe, ma­king [Page 82]the Scriptures by such dalliance to serue their turnes at all assaies, as Procustes did his bed for men of all statures, by cutting of some, and stretching the shortest to the length of it. Veritas est simplex, mendacium multiplex. They had neede of many shiftes for a false matter. Therefore all that you can make out of that place (if the Maior were necessarie) is this.

The children of Israel put their hands vpon the Leuites,Absurdity of the demon­strator. or the heads of the Leuites: the Leuites put their hands vpon the heads of the bullocks, ergo, the people now must lay their hands on the heades of the Ministers, and the Ministers must lay their handes on the heades of bullockes. For this your good reason learned of him, (as I saide afore) Et vitulo tu dignus & hic. It is too egregi­ous abuse of Gods people thus to trifle, and yet to set such a grimme countenance on the matter, as if euery worde dropped downe an Oracle from them.

The 3. Demonstration.

That which appertaineth vnto all,Demonstra­tion. must be approued of all the Congrega­tion: but the ministerie in the Church pertaineth to all, ergo, auctoritie to ap­proue pertaineth to all.

This is a paralogisme: Remon­strance. for auctoritie, is in the conclusion, which is not in either the premisses, and therefore 4. termini.

This Maior is a rule of lawe.

Quod omnium interest, ab omnibus debet approbari, but so many exceptions as syllables in the rule. But to the reason of the Max­ime or rule.

Not euery one whome it concerneth to be gouerned, must haue a stroke in the choise of the gouernour, whether in election of a Maior of a citie, or chosing a Burgesse, or Knight of the shire, but legales homines, such as are credited with the matter. This rea­son is too popular. To haue a good Prince is euery mans benefit, yet must not all Princes goe by election: and if this be a diuine rule of nature, and so to be vnderstood, why doe the most voices carry the matter, yea the odde voice oftentimes?

This absurditie of demonstrating is not out of kenning, but in euery mans sight, if you would make another syllogisme, which is this:

That which pertaineth vnto all,Retortion. must be approoued of all:

The ministerie pertaineth to all men, women, and children of [Page 83]the Congregation, ergo, the approbation pertaineth to all men, women, and children of the Congregation.

And if one do but dissent, the election must be dashed, because all are interessed, and some one or other may be preiudiced vn­called thereunto, which is wholy contrarie to their practise and platforme: and though the ministerie reacheth to all, doeth it therefore follow the election of the Minister doth belong to all? Why not then his vocation, examination, and his ordination by imposition of handes as well shall belong to all? all which you doe alonely attribute to your Elderships.

The 4. Demonstration.

That which is most effectuall to bring the people to obedience,Demonstra­tion. is the best election, and may not be abridged: But election by common consent is so, ergo, election by the Church is best, and all other vnlawfull.

To the Maior.

Not euery thing that effecteth obedience is foorthwith best:Remon­strance. for flatterie stealeth away eftsoones the peoples hearts, as in Ab­soloms ambition, that spake the people faire, to take the crowne from his fathers head, and put it on his owne.

To the Minor.

But election by common consent is neither so nor so, if you meane the common and baser sorte of people taken into electi­ons: nay the contrarie is true, for who hath chosen them may de­pose them: which taketh away all godly libertie of franke rebu­king them, from the Minister, and in them all behoouefull awe and reuerence towards their owne creature.

But sir, if you can frame such election that all the world can a­gree vpon: Consensio nationum, lex naturae putanda est. The agree­ment of all is the lawe of nature: otherwise in popular elections you perhaps knowe what Liuie in his first Decad, saith: vt ferè fit maior pars vincit meliorem, the greater part ouercommeth the better: but you runne not in your conclusion, because though it were admitted to be best, yet doth it not followe that all other be vnlawfull and naught.

The 5. Demonstration.

That election which procureth greatest reuerence to the teacher, is best:Demonstra­tion. But so it is in the peoples consent. ergo,

This argument, and the former 4.Remonstr. (if the partes were graun­ted [Page 84]true) doe but holde with the vsuall limitations of caeteris pa­ribus, other things weighed and considered together, that is the best election that procureth obedience, reuerence, &c.

To the Maior.

The vertue of the man, sufficiencie of learning and honestie, procureth amongstall good men the best reuerence and estima­tion, not aura popularis, the fond and wandring opinion of the people. Bellua multorum capitum plebs, the common people hath more heads then Hydra, and will easily contemne him whome they haue aduanced.

To the Minor.

We see otherwise by experience, as in our Sauiour Iesu Christ his case, one day make him a king, the other day naile him on the crosse. This day crie [...], to morowe crie crucifige.

The 6. Allegation of the Demonstrator, with the testimo­nies of the ancient writers, in steede of the sixth Demonstration.

The Minister should be chosen,Demonstra­tion. the people being present in the eies of all, by the common iudgement,Cypr. li. 1. ep. 3. testimonie, approbation, and this is the lawfull vocation out of the worde of God.

It is the 4.Remon­strance. epistle of the 1. li. therefore your vnskilfulnes in quoting, or negligence in reading, is to be noted heere. The wordes are falsified by you: Quod & ipsum videmus de diuina au­thoritate descendere vt sacerdos plebe praesente, Cypr. li. 1. ep. 4. de Mart. & Ba­silide. &c. sub assist entis po­puli conscientia ordinationes sacerdotales fieri oportere. Where no common iudgement, testimonie, consent, or approbation is men­tioned, but onely the peoples knowledge and presence.

Cyprians wordes extend to the legall of a Priest and euangeli­call ordination of a Bishop, as of Eleazar in Aarons place, 20. Num. and of euery Catholike bishop, and not of euery minister (as is shewed afore) and can neuer be misproued. Then which, a more strong example cannot bee brought against you: for if a bishops ordination doe answere to the consecration of the high priest by Gods appointment, and out of the 20. of Numb. to be proued, then is T.C. shift of the high priestes, being a type of Christ, no warrant to exclude the superiour degree of bishops aboue o­ther ministers, vnder the Gospell. And as Moses by Gods directi­on there, when Aaron was to die, put off his clothes, & put them [Page 85]on Eleazar his sonne: so must the ciuill Magistrate haue the chiefest sway in the calling and inuestiture of Byshops: for, of the people no more is there sayde, but that they, vz. Moyses, Aaron, and Eleazar went vp to the mount about this busines, in the sight of al the Congregation. Yet both the one of a Byshop, and the o­ther of the Minister with vs are solemnized in a Congregation in the presence of the people: that if any haue knowledge of ex­ceptions to be lawfully made, he may freely alledge them: vt de­tegantur malorum crimina, bonorum merita praedicentur.

The 7. Allegation.

That is certainely a diuine election of a Byshop which is made by the whole Church.Demonstra­tor.

Ambrose writeth, Ecclesiae Vercellensi, to choose them a By­shop,Remon­strance. the custome being then of such a choyse as afore is descri­bed: neither doeth he speake of all rules of choosing but of the good and commendable choyse of Eusebius the Confessor:Ambrose ep. 82. Me­rito creditum quod diuino esset electus iudicio quem omnis Ecclesia elegit: Socrat. eccl. hist. lib. 4. cap. 25. As also in Ambrose election, vnto which Ʋalentianus the Emperour gaue his royall commaund, qui iusserat vt alium cre­arent Episcopum.

The 8. Allegation.Demon­strator.

Let the people haue authoritie to choose their Clarkes and Ministers.

There is not any such title to be found in any his Epistles ad Ruffinum: which here is quoted at large,Remon­strance. as if he had written but one Epistle to him, the better to couer this coggerie.Hieron. ad Ruf­finum.

The 9. Allegation.

They runne to Byshops suffraganes (speaking of Clarks) certaine time of the yeere,Demonstra­tor. and bring money and they are annointed and ordeined being cho­sen of none:Hierom ad Ne­potianum. And afterwarde the Byshop in hugger mugger is chosen of the Canons or Prebendaries onely, without knowledge of the people.

The margine hereof is beautified with this elogie: Remon­strance. This is right our English fashion, as if he had found some great treasure. It is a lewde fashion for you or any other to misreport S. Hierome, or this whole Church of England: there is not any such worde in that whole Epistle, except you haue some larger copies then we haue, of your owne framing. It is likely you tooke this out of some other booke of the brotherhood, beeing their owne wordes, but finding this quotation not farre off, thought it pertained vnto these wordes. Those that take vp all of trust, are [Page 86]forced often to lye by it.

The 10. Allegation.Demonstra­tor.

Nazianzen. in the Oration of the death of his father, approueth the ele­ction by the people, and confuteth them that would hinder it.

What egregious impudencie hath the Demonstrator thus to cite Greg. Nazianz. whose words are these:Remon­strance. Purissimae populi par­ti, hoc est & sacris ministris & nostris Nazaraeis, quibus vel solis vel potissimum illis electiones committi oportebit, sic enim ecclesiae nun­quam male esset. The purest sort of people, that is, holy Ministers and our Nazarites should be the chiefe electors of Bishops, so the Church should neuer doe amisse.

The 11. Allegation.

Augustine when he appoynted Eradius to succeede him,Demonstra­tor. saith it was the ap­prooued right and custome, that the whole Church shoulde either choose or consent to their Bishop.

I take the place you meane to be in the 110.Remon­strance. epist. August. which appointment or designement of his successour is against the 4. Conc. Toletan. cap. 18. which you meane to alledge in your 18. Allegation to serue another turne.

How little this maketh for your purpose, he that will reade that Epistle may see. First it concerneth the election of a Bishop, and not of any inferiour minister, as the Demonstrators generall issue importeth. Besides, it is not an ordinary election, when as Augu­stine both desired that himselfe might resigne, and appointed his successour in his life time: therefore lesse maruell if he would not doe it wholly against the peoples willes: yet how slender a con­sent was looked for, which the Demonstrator would make a so­lemne election, these words of Augustine doe shew: Least anie (saith he) shoulde thinke much or complaine of me, I declare my will which I beleeue to bee the will of God in all your hearings, August. epi. 110. and know­ledge: I will haue Eradius the minister to be my successor: whereupon the people vsed this acclamation, Deo gratias, thanked be God.

There is no mention of their right, or of the custome. If you meane not this place, it might haue pleased you to haue quoted it. Augustines whole workes are somewhat too large to be per­used ouer to trace you in an vntrueth. Besides, in that you say with a disiunctiue Eyther choose or consent, your issue is not heereby concluded, for the disiunctiue is true, if either part be true.

The 12. Allegation.Demonstra­tor.

Anthimius choosing a Bishop without the consent of the people filled all Armenia with sedition.Basilius epist. 58.

Basill writeth this to Miletius: you do vntruely report of Basil: Remon­strance. Volopietatem tuam scire quod fraeter Anthimius Faustum cum Papa agentem Episcopum, spretis suffragiis in locum reuerendissimi fratris Cyrilli ordinauit sic, vt Armeniam seditione repleuerit, where is to be noted ordinauit sic, Emphatically, So and in such sorte, Spretis suffragijs, In contempt of the people, who might bee interessed. Lastly, one absent or from hence abiding, in another place with the Patriarch.

The 13. Allegation.Demonstra­tor.

Why did Peter communicate the election with the Disciples? least it should turne to a brawle.Chrysost. 1. Act.

Chrysostome is the best interpreter of himselfe,Remon­strance. whome you should haue faithfully alledged: the wordes together with the sence are: Nunc autem tempori iudicandi negotium permisit illis: Vide Chrysost. supra 6. Act. Eligere viros il­lis permittum. It was but a temporary permission or leaue: An non licebat ipsi? was it not lawfull for Peter to elect? Yes verely saith he, it was lawfull, but he doeth it not: ne cui videretur gratificari, least he should seeme to gratifie one more then another.

The 14. Allegation out of the testimonies of generall Counsels.

It is meete you should haue power to choose and to giue their names that are woorthie to be Clearkes,Demon­strator. according to the lawes and decrees of the Church: If any die,Concil Nicen. teste Theodoret. they who were last chosen are to be promoted to the ho­nour of him that is dead, if they bee woorthie of it, and the people choose them.

The Demonstrator leaueth Theodoret with a blank for booke and Chapter: the place,Remon­strance. lib. 9. cap. Eccles. Histor. ex Epistola Con­cilij Niceni: Ecclesiae Alexandrinae & Aegypt. Pentapol. &c. writ­ten against Arrius & against Miletius, but against Miletius with lesse seueritie, that he should loose his authority & power, but re­taine his name of dignitie & office. The Councell therfore spea­keth of the Cleargie, not of the peoples choosing. Iura Clerico­rum qui orthodoxi manserunt, it is the right of the Clearks, who are Orthodoxe, as Irenaeus noteth in the margine, who should choose other clearks. Howbeit, if needs you wil vnderstande the people and Cleargy, we wil not denie the people present to haue by ac­clamations [Page 88]testified their approbations of elections made as is afore noted, neither for all that bind christian people to the same order in election nowe. By the way I obserue you are not the best translatour ad verbum, of the wordes of the councell mangled by you: Modo idoneus videatur, so he be fit & populus illum eligat, and the people choose him, Episcopusque Alexandrinus ei suffra­getur, adeoque populi electionem confirmet. There is the Byshop of Alexandria his necessarie and negatiue voyce who was Me­tropolitane and one of the foure oecumenicall Patriarches.

The 15. Demonstra­tor. Allegation.

Let ye people choose, & the Byshop approue & seale vp the election wt them.

This proueth the elections were not so absolute in the people,Concil. Nicen. Trip. Hist. 2. li. but might be countermaunded by the Byshop who seemeth to obtaine and holde a negatiue voyce.Remon­strance.

The 16. Allegation.

In an Epistle to Damasus, Demonstra­tor. Ambrose, &c sayth, We haue ordeined Nectarius Byshop of Constantinople, the whole citie decreeing the same: and Flauianus was appointed Byshop of Antioch, Concil. Const. test. Trip. Hist. li. 9. cap. 14. the whole citie appointing him.

The place is in Theodoret. lib. 5. cap. 9. Praeposuimus in generali concilio nostro Nectarium cum omnium clericorum & totius ciuita­tis approbatione praesente Imperatore Theodosio. Remon­strance.

We haue placed, that is, we Byshops, sayth Theodoret in the Chapter going before: the Pastors and Ministers did choose him, the whole citie was wel pleased therewith: As for Flauianus, the same answere serueth in the same case.

The 17. Demonstra­tor. Allegation.

When he hath bin examined, let him be ordeined Byshop by the com­mon consent of the Clarks and lay people.Concil. Carthag. cap. 1.

We will not striue whether he must be tried, as also both, vel Episcoporum examine vel populi testimonio, Remon­strance. or whether euer any Byshop de facto, haue bin so ordeined, but whether alwayes of necessity it must be so.22. cap. 3. Concil. Carthag.

The 18. Allegation.

Let him not be coūted a Priest whom ye Clergy & people doth not choose.

The wordes are,Demonstra­tor. qui nondum ad 30. annos peruenerint: qui nec à clero nec à populo propriae ciuitatis electi sunt: Neither by Clergie, nor people:Conc. Tolet. di­stinct. 50. So that either serued.

It is a shame for you to alledge that Canon which maketh so directly for Priests,Remon­strance. Byshops, and Metropolitanes: The witnesse [Page 89]you bring for you, you may not reiect.

The 19. Allegation.Demon­stration.

If any Bishop be chosen but out of the Bishops of the same prouince and of the clergie, and citizens, let another be chosen.Con. Gabilon. cap. 10.

Wee confesse such elections of Bishops were in vse then, the people hauing the least stroke therein:Remon­strance. but that maketh no­thing to the state of the question, whether it must needes bee so now in al ministers, because it was then vsed in Bishops elections. That which was vsed then, these men themselues abrogate by taking away all such Byshops. Note by the way the Demonstra­tor and T.C. can vse the testimonies of Councels, which other­wise they impugne, yea, vse ye testimony of a prouincial councell, yea, such a councell which 14. can. giueth ordination of clearks vnto Bishops and forbiddeth 4. can. any two Bishops to bee in one citie ordeined or abyding: the contrary whereof, the puri­tans draught doth importune and craue, making euery pastor a Bishop, by which reckoning there would be 129. Bishops in London.

The 20. Allegation out of the Emperors lawes.

Following the doctrine of the apostles &c. we ordeine that as oft as any place of ministers shalbe voyde in any citie,Demon­stration. voyces shalbe giuen of the inha­bitants of the citie, that one of three for right faith and holinesse,Iustinian in cod. be chosen to the Bishoprike.

The words of the constitution are craftily suppressed,Remon­strance. & yet bor­rowed of Illiricus, at second and third hand: The demonstrator who doth gather the rapsodies she weth not where in the codi. but in nouellis cōstitutionibus 123. following &c. We make this pragma­ticall law, that as often as it shalbe necessarie, the clergie and primates of the citie shall assemble, for which citie the Bishop is to be ordeyned, and sweare to choose &c of three: one fitte, aboue 35. yeeres olde.

The wordes are, vt ex tribus illis personis quae decretis hoc modo eliguntur melior ordinetur electione et iudicio, eorum qui ordinandi ius habeant: By the inhabitants, he meaneth clergie and chiefe of the citie: so the inhabitants must choose three, the Emperour choose one to be ordeyned. Vnderstand in this law: he sayth fol­lowing, &c. Not for kind or manner of election but for the men eligible: vt sint integerimi & incorrupti: for no such election for one to be chosen amongst three, is to be deduced from the apo­stles of Christ.

The 21, Allegation.Demonstra­tor.

Being not ignorant of the holy Canons, &c. We assent to the Ecclesiasticall order that the Bishop be chosen by the election of the Cleargy and people.Carol mag. di­stinct. 63. sacro­rum Canon.

He doth not say Canons of the Apostles or holy scripture, which argueth sundry kinds & maner of elections in sundry places: but rather he saith Secundum statuta Canonum in propria diocaesi: Remon­strance. ac­cording to the statutes Canonicall of euery Dioecese: for the Em­perors would not suffer the diminution of any of their priuileges.

The 22. Demonstra­tor. Allegation.

Ludouicus Caroli filius decreed that he should be Bishop of Rome, whom the people should consent to choose.

This I take to be Distinct. 63.Remon­strance.

I know no better Illatiue a man may draw from this, then Er­go, it is in the power of the Emperour who made it, to alter also the decree: to what ende else saith he We decree?

The 23. Demonstra­tor. Allegation.

Out of Platina in vita Adriani 2. the Romanes were commanded by letters to choose their owne Bishop.Platina.

This is an vntrue report: He doeth not command the doing, but commend them for doing:Remon­strance. Romanos admodum laudat quod san­ctè & integrè creassent: But howsoeuer the Emperor swallowed and digested the iniurie, the Emperors Ambassadors were seclu­ded, and the election was tumultuous, as (for the most part) po­pular elections are wont to be. And euen then the Bishops of Rome began to vsurpe a tyrannie.

The 24. Allegation.

In the life of Leo the 8.Demon­strator. Let the people, saith Otho the Emperor, choose, I will approue.

This proueth the power of the ciuill magistrate,Platina. being Chri­stian for election of Ministers:Remon­strance. and that the consent of the people is not necessarily requisit: for this Otho put out Bennet whom the people had chosen in steede of Iohn the 13. and placed Leo a­gaine, whom the people had displaced. But one thing must bee often iterated and inculcated vpon these learned Demonstra­tors. The question is not betweene vs and antiquititie, whether the people had approbation in elections of Bishops in diuers pla­ces of Christendome, and especially in Rome: But the question is betweene vs and the Churchwrights at this day, whether the whole manner of all Ecclesiasticall mens elections, be constantly, [Page 91]precisely, and singularly deduced from, and attributed by the scrip­tures to the whole people of that Church.

The 25. Allegation of new writers.

Musculus in his common place of the title of magistrates.Demon­stration.

Bullinger 1. Timoth. 4.

Caluin. Institut. 4. lib. 3. cap. sect. 15.

Confess. Heluet. cap. 18. are ours and many others in this behalfe.

This Qui dicunt, or Iurors cannot agree on their foreman,Remon­strance. to speake one thing or deliuer in one verdict. For if Musculus say, aplebe & ministris in primis Ecclesys eligebantur antistites, The Prelates were chosen of the people and ministers: he will adde and say the trueth and the whole trueth, Talis tum erat ecclesia­rum status, such was the state of the Church pollicie then: nowe there is a Christian magistrate, the state is otherwise.

As for Caluin, Huius res certae regula ex Apo­stolorum institu­tione peti non potest. he holdeth that there neuer was instituted by the Apostles, any vniforme order in Church elections. li. 4. Instit. ca. 3. sect. 13. As for the confession, it maketh no necessitie of such elections. And for Bullinger contra Anabaptistas, What doth he meane? Remember him I pray you when he writeth thus:

The Anabaptists pretend a calling by the people: But our calling is authorized from the Christian Prince, who is therewith credited by the Christian people.

The 26. Allegation or Demonstration.

If there be none write against it but the Papists:Demonstra­tor. and no other argumentes but Papisticall, then the election belongeth to the people: the 1. is true. Ergo the second.

This is a long leape from the antecedent to the consequent,Remon­strance. à personis adres: If none but Papistes, or if all Papistes bande a­gainst election by the people, then is the election by the people true: aswell, if all transubstantiators write against consubstantia­tors, Ergo, all consubstantiation is by the reason a likelihoode of truth. If no Papists had written against popular election,Absurditie of the De­monstrator. popular electiō is neuer the truer. If none but the papists did first extirpat heresies, then were those heresies to haue likelihoode of trueth.

To the Assumption.

But none &c. Many orthodoxe old and new writers, write a­gainst their popularity of election, and against their positions. As for arguments, they are plentiful in scriptures, Councels, Fathers, besides the practise welneere of al the world of Christianitie.

The 1. obiection of the Demonstrator.

They were vnder the crosse and fewe in number. Ergo, the fitnesse sooner knowen and easier espied.Demonstra­tion.

The Answere of the Demonstrator.

The gospel was dispersed throughout al Asia, Affricke, & Europe, and coulde keepe lesse together: Ergo, that maketh for vs.

Although the gospel was sowen in Asia, Remon­strance, with reply. Affricke, Europe: Ne­uerthelesse, it is not so much to haue it sowen in many places, as to haue it deepely suncken in many persons and generally recei­ued: Ergo, this maketh rather against, then for you. And ther­fore could not be such vniforme assemblies as immediatly in Ie­rusalem vpon the assension of our sauiour: multitudinis credentium erat cor vnum, via vna.

The 2. obiection of the Demonstrator.

There are many hypocrytes:Demon­stration. Ergo, dangerous to grant elections vnto them.

The Answere of the Demonstrator.

True: but it is a principle in hypocrisie to be forward in elections and such actions.

Belike the demonstrator hath read ouer the Aphorismes of hy­pocrisie: Remon­strance, with reply. or an hypocrite himselfe being a man so forward to set forward these elections sauouring of popularitie. Me thinketh I may mislike the answere: it should be thus shaped to his owne obiection: because hypocriticall men are many in the church, Ergo, many such may set forward such elections.

The argument doth not hold, à coniugatis: but that hypocriti­call electors will make hypocritical elections, and eligible hypo­crites: and fewe others in their church.

The 3. obiection of the Demonstrator.

They had knowledge, our people are ignorant.Demon­stration.

The Answere of the Demonstrator.

Our people would haue knowledge, if they had teaching: they cannot choose worse then the Bishops and the patrons.

Our people would &c. This is an apparant digression and no answere to himselfe:Remon­strance, with reply. Our people haue not the knowledge toge­ther with those gifts the primitiue christians had: howbeit if the patrons might present, and the Bishops freely without suite in lawe choose, you should finde the commoditie of Bishops elec­tion. As for patrons, some I know most honourable, most vertu­ous, and religious patrons who wil not to gaine a world of com­modities, defile their hands with pitch of briberie: as for cormo­rant [Page 93]patrones (whereof some I knowe) no man meaneth to pa­tronize their sacrilegious impietie.

The 4. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

The Church was noe then established.Demonstra­tion.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

That is vntrue: for the Apostles did better establish without the helpe of the Christian Magistrate, then we with the helpe of them.

Nay it is most infallibly true, that colourably you now obiect.Remon­strance with reply. For the Church was not established concerning ciuill gouern­ment and Magistracie, which did persecute the Church, and kil­led the children of it in manner altogether, massacring the Chri­stian professors: howbeit the church was established concerning faith and spirituall gouernment, not concerning the visible socie­tie and pollicie of the Church externally, being then vnder per­secution. And therefore the Illation is false and erroneous, to say the Apostles did better establish the outward face of Christiani­tie, and practise of religion, then Christian Kings and Queenes in their tender care and maintenance of the Churches pollicie. But hereof may be gathered, howe gladly these men would seclude all Christian Princes from rule in matters Ecclesiastical, as I haue afore noted.

The 5. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

Drunkards and Papistes will choose like themselues, the best disposed are fewest.Demonstra­tion.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

Such are not of the Church, but without. 1. Cor. 5.12. v.

Knowne drunkards are in the Church, but not of the Church,Remon­strance. vnlesse they repent. As for the eldership to reforme the people, (which you would haue) is for the multitude to reforme the multitude. And as for the schooles of the Prophets (if you meane the Vniuersities, which you must send your Ministers vnto) they will send fewe enough to you, their maintenance being taken a­way by those whome you haue organized: all might come to barbaritie and Turcisme.

The 6. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

Paule commaundeth Timothie to lay handes on no man rashly. Timoth. 1.5. cap. 22. v. ergo, One did it. Demonstra­tion.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

Hee teacheth what to doe for his parte, though others would be rashe, hee should not ioyne with them.

He teacheth him his dutie,Remon­strance. and in him all others that haue power to ordeine Ministers, to do nothing with temeritie. Looke vpon the place: S. Paul speaketh singulariter to Timothie, not to any Eldership.

This interpretation is but a newe tricke of one of their Patri­arkes, in his Ecclesiasticall discipline neuer heard of afore, and is conuinced by the pregnant circumstances of the place, and the vniforme consent of all ancient writers thereupon. For the epi­stle is directed to Timothie himselfe, to the end to teach him how to demeane himselfe in the Church. Immediatly afore this place, he giues precepts how widowes should be maintained, and what proportion of allowance he was to make vnto ministers: howe Timothie should receaue an accusation against a minister, what course he should vse in admonitions and rebukes, according to the diuersitie of sinnes. Then Paul adiureth him most earnestly, that in the exercise of his office in this behalfe, he obserue an e­quall course of iustice, [...], without all preiudicate opinion, or leaning to one side more then to another, viz. preiudice and partialitie, two wordes iudiciall, and two things that are the very banes of all vpright administration of iustice. Then followeth (after iurisdiction) this precept of ordination, wherein he ought not to deale rashly, lest otherwise his sinnes whome he so ordeineth, be imputed vnto him the ordeiner. And after a litle, answereth an obiection that might be made, howe it shoulde bee possible for him to knowe afore hande other mens sinnes, that in this behalfe he might keepe him selfe blamelesse. Therefore Paul, to take this away, saith: That his meaning is not of sinnes that such shall commit afterward, but of such as were committed afore, which could no more be hidden, then a mans good conuersation by past could be: so that by the whole course appeareth, that the other mens sinnes, whereof in ordinations he is willed to beware, lest he communicate with them, and be made guiltie of them, are the sinnes of him, that is to haue imposition of handes, and not any eldership sinnes, by reason of their rash or­deining of others, which these men had rather make Elders very prone vnto, and Paul also lesse carefull of all them then of Timo­thie alone, then that they should not here by in some apparance, be showldered into this action. Why man, if we should not tra­uerse [Page 95]this glosse with you, it would followe, that elders through greater number of voices, might ordeine ministers with imposi­tion of handes, without aduise or consent of any minister of the worde, nay against the will of Timothie, (whome you make an Euangelist) and contrarie to the last reformed essentiall plat­forme, and to your owne answere vnto the next obiection fol­lowing. Sticke not to your owne wits, let the vniforme consent of learned antiquitie weigh some thing with you, not onely in this interpretation, but others also, lest this be found to be one of the places in that booke of Discipline Ecclesiasticall, which T.C. was forced in his epistle to disauowe, as not agreeing vnto.

The 7. Obiection of the Demonstration.

The Councell of Laodicea decreed, that people should not elect.Demonstra­tion.

Answere.

That is as Caluine vpon 16. Act. not elect alone without direction of a graue Minister.

T. C. maketh this Councell a bastard Councell,Remon­strance. by the iudge­ment of the Centuries: but the Demonstrator, as priuie to T.C. better pause, maketh no doubt of the Councell: the 12. Canon of which Councell, would haue bishops preferred to Ecclesiasti­call dignitie, by the iudgement of the Metropolitane, and other bishops.

As for Caluine, it is not materiall whether he haue the worde or no: the place is 14. Act. Quod non sit permittendum turbis, electionem facere eorum qui sunt ad sacerdotium promouendi. The common people will make tur­bulent elections. And is this Caluines answer? was euer afore that Councell any electi­on permitted to Lay people, without any Ecclesiasticall man, that this should neede now to be decre­ed?

*⁎*

The fifth Chapter.

Assertion of the Demonstrator.

ALL those who are to be admitted to any publike office,Demonstra­tion. must be examined by the Eldership.

The 1. Demonstration.

They who are to ordeine, must haue particular know­ledge and examination: the Eldership is to ordeine, ergo, the Eldership must examine.

The Maior maketh for vs:Remon­strance. for your Lay El­ders haue no knowledge for the most part to examine.

The Minor is obscurum per obscurius, to approoue an ambigu­itie by a doubtfull thing: for wee defend that the eldership you fancie, may not ordeine. If we did allowe them ordination, we would not sticke for examination: but they want calling to or­deine, and skill to examine.

The Syllogisme goeth against themselues:Retortion. 22. cap. 3. Conc. Carthag. for what forehead can deny that all bishops haue, or ought to haue examination? witnesse to this all Fathers and Councels.

All that haue euer had examination haue bene bishops:

No Lay elders euer haue bene bishops, ergo,

No Lay Elders ought to haue examination.

The 2. Demonstration.

Matters of greatest importance must be done by able gouernours.Demonstra­tion.

Approuing of Church officers, is a matter of greatest importance, & the Eldership are most able gouernours, ergo,

It must be done by the Eldership.

To the Minor.

Preaching of the worde,Remon­strance. and ministration of the sacraments, are matters of greatest importance, not electing of Church offi­cers: for this is referred to the other, neither can your Lay Elders be for this point most able, nay they are not able gouernours at all, and least of all to haue examination of the learning of Mini­sters.

This syllogisme reuerseth against themselues.

Matters of greatest importance must be done by able gouer­nours: one President, Pastor, and Eldership of Laytie, are not best able gouernours, ergo, one President, Pastor, and Eldership, can­not doe matters of greatest importance: by consequence neither [Page 97]minister word and sacrament, examine, ordaine, nor rule the Church.

The 3. Demonstration.

The way whereby a mans insufficiencie is best espied,Demonstra­tion. is the best way to examine.

But by the Eldership consisting of diuers, a mans insufficiencie is best espi­ed: for many eyes see more then one eye. Ergo,

To the Maior.

We will not striue about the Maior, Remon­strance. because it serueth both our turnes: But our answere is, sufficiencie or insufficiencie is not best espied by those who of all others are most insufficient to iudge of able ministers.

De vnaqua (que) re iudicat in ea re peritus artifex, Tullie.

Quam multa vident pictores in vmbris & eminentia quae nos non videmus.

Ratiocinabitúrne de coloribus ortus caecus? A bleare eye,1. Physic. or a blind man cannot iudge of colours: the Painter or Limner can also better iudge then we. Touching the reason, Many eyes see more then one: Many bleare or blinke eies see not more, nay not so much as one quicksighted eie. One Ecclesiasticall wise gouernor or prelate, is like to Linceus eie, seeth further then all they: and sometimes he that hath but halfe an eie, seeth farther then Poli­phemus with his great basen eie. Is not one great Clarke better a­ble to iudge of a mans sufficience in learning, then twentie thou­sand Laste of vnlearned tradesmen or artisans?

The 4. Demonstration.

Men least subiect to partialitie, are to examine: The Eldership are least ergo, Demonstra­tion.

To the Minor.

That is a fabulous narration of your Eldership,Remon­strance. who being many and but Mechanicall artisans and idiotes in learning, are most subiect to loue, hatred, fauour, friendship, schisme and diuision, Scinditur incertum studia in contraria vulgus. Especi­ally euerie one hauing a Negatiue voyce in the elections, as you make by your rule: That which concerneth all, must bee approoued of all. Such turbulent elections of Bishops were in the Primitiue Church, where as one man being a good man in the place, [Page 98]

Iustum & tenacem propositi virum,
Non ciuium ardor praua iubentium,
Non vultus instantis tyranni,
Mentit quatit solida.

The 5. Demonstration.

The Apostles way in examination is to be followed.Demon­stration.

For many to examine is the Apostles way: Ergo, to be followed.

To the Maior.

Here he is come from his eldership vnto Many, Remon­strance. as if whereso­euer many are, there were streight their Eldership.

The Apostles way commanded as perpetuall, is to be follow­ed, but no such thing appeareth to be commanded.

To the Minor.

We must distinguish of this word Many, Absurditie of the Demon­strator. not for Eldership, but for the multitude of disciples, which is absurd now for the whole multitude to elect, much more to examine, a thing not mentio­ned in all scripture, [...], 120. Ergo, 120. must elect, examine and present now: Or the 12. did call, [...], The whole multitude of disciples, Act. 1.15. to chuse Deacons then: Ergo, the in­numerable multitude of all beleeuers, must examine the Dea­cons to bee chosen now: as though if the Deacons were onely distributers to the poore (as is imagined by you) any learning were requisite,Absurditie of the Demon­strator. or all finite or infinite number must be chusers and opposers now. They who can do no more but render an account or reason of their owne faith (if they can do that) must heare the audite and reckoning of others faith, and trie their skill in high points of diuinitie, and so the shepeheard not lead the sheepe, but the sheepe the shepeheard: for he must teach them the next day that examined him the day afore.

The 6. Demonstration.

They whose testimonie the people may best credite,Demonstra­tion. must examine:

But the Elderships iudgement the people may best credite, being a compa­ny of able and sufficient men. Ergo,

All goeth to popular democracie.Remon­strance.

To the Minor.

This is idem peridem: The Eldership is nothing else, but a few vnlearned people for the most part, & can no more iudge of gifts, (other then volubilitie of speach) then a blind man of colours.

The 7. Demonstration.

They who can best perswade the people of his sufficiencie must examine:Demonstra­tion. But the Eldership can best perswade: Ergo,

To the Maior.

The Maior is false:Remon­strance. For a craftie Orator may seduce the peo­ple, and best perswade in a bad matter.

To the Minor.

The bishop of the dioecesse and others vnder them, can best iudge of the qualitie of learning, themselues being learned: As for the sillie Eldership, they are vncunning to perswade, and more vncunning to examine. Lord, what a confusion, barbari­tie and indignitie were this, to haue vnlearned men examine mi­nisters? Can they tell who is [...], that neither know tongues, arte liberall, or methode, nor can tell a Paralogisme when they heare it?

The sixt Chapter.

Assertion.

  • 1 ALl must be preachers receiued into the ministerie.
  • 2 The Church may not be gouerned by
    • Commissaries,
    • Officials,
    • Chancellors.

The 1. Demonstration.

He that may be receiued into the ministerie,Demonstra­tion. must be a­ble to teach the people all that Christ commanded, Mat. 28.20. Onely he that is able to teach the trueth, and conuince the aduersarie, can teach the people all that Christ commaunded: Ergo, none must be receiued into the ministe­rie, but such as be able to teach the trueth, and conuince gainesaiers.

To the Maior.

That whosoeuer may be receiued into the ministerie,Remon­strance. must be able to teach all that Christ hath commaunded (for so is it here propounded) vniuersallie is not true: for then no man since the Apostles, might, or can now bee receiued to the ministerie. Things that Christ commaunded to the Apostles, were of two sortes: either things for knowledge, or for conuersation, what was to be embraced, and what eschewed. For matter of knowledge it was so eminent in the Apostles, being ledde by Gods spirite [Page 100]vnto all trueth, as that they could not erre in their doctrine deli­uered to the Churches, and that the 72. Euangelists or any since, were not indued with like measure of it. Augustine, Hierome, with all the olde fathers and learned bishops that haue written, haue both erred (and therefore were not able to teach all know­ledge that Christ had commanded his Apostles to know) and in sundrie points of Scripture confesse their ignorance. Beza and Caluine (whose examples I vse because you doe most account of them) doe differ in sundrie interpretations. By this rule then, the one of them (light on whether it will) was not able to teach all that Christ commaunded and commended to his Apostles, and consequently no minister, because none omniscient mini­ster.

They doubt of some places, and some Beza himselfe profes­seth he vnderstandeth not, as that in the Corinthians, Propter an­gelos, and I know other places, which I perswade my selfe veri­lie he vnderstood not, at least not aright: and shall not he be al­lowed with you an able minister? Then woe be to your selues of the faction that are of this opinion, for you will (I hope) giue place to Beza for sufficiencie in learning. But especially woe to them that neuerthelesse thinke you ministers, and receiue (as they thinke) sacraments at your hands, yet in trueth nothing, if wee might beleeue your owne doctrines.

The errour hereof riseth, because the Demonstrator (folowing the steps of the deuill when hee tempted Christ) alleageth this Scripture defectiuelie.Math. 4. For it is not, teaching them all that I haue commaunded you: but teaching them to obserue all that I haue com­maunded you. What? that all nations should obserue all that Christ commaunded the Apostles, either to know or to put in practise? no but teach them to obserue what Christ commaunded the Apo­stles to haue obserued: for the Apostles were to vse many things as Apostles, which are not requisite of euery Christian to bee obserued and kept. And as the Apostles knew many hid myste­ries and depthes of knowledge which is not necessarie for euery minister to the being of his ministerie in that hie measure to know: and as it is not necessarie to the being of euery Christian, to haue as manie and as excellent degrees of knowledge, as any bishop or minister of the worde (else were no difference be­tweene [Page 101]teacher and scholer:) so I doubt not but that the Apo­stles were not indued with knowledge and other gifts all alike: and therefore that the like inequalitie may bee of ministers a­mongst themselues, and amongst common Christians in com­parison one of another, without derogating hereby from them, the essence and being either of an Apostle, minister, or good christian. The diuersitie of giftes are in all sortes of men of great multiplicitie and varietie, and euery one hath not all, but as plea­seth God to dispense. There is in Scriptures milke and strong meate, rudiments and perfection, for a lambe to wade, and an E­lephant to swimme: and yet (as S. Augustine saith) In these things which are plainly set foorth in Scripture, are all things that containe faith, or conuersation and maners of men. Act. 20. And though S. Paul kept backe nothing of the whole will of God, ver. 27. from the mini­sters of Ephesus, yet doeth hee expound himselfe afore, vers. 20.2. Cor. 12. v. 4. [...] I kept backe nothing that was profitable, but haue shewed you, &c. For all was not profitable for them, as namely he in reuelation heard words not to be spo­ken, which was not [...], lawfull for man to vtter. Euery minister cannot bee of perfectest knowledge and giftes, as in the pricke of perfection, for that which is superlatiue,Arist. in Topic. agreeth onely to one.

Are all Apostles? are all prophets? are all doctors?1. Cor. 12. v. 29 & 30. do all speake with tongues? do all interprete? &c. Of necessitie therefore the ministers teaching of the people, (whether in matter of beliefe and knowledge, or what to follow and eschew) must be accor­ding to the proportion of his owne knowledge and gifts, where­with he is endued. If notwithstanding all this, ioined with the experience of ministers in all times, and that which they might find in themselues, if they had the spirite of humilitie, they will vrge, that to be in deed a minister, a man must be perfectly endu­ed with all the enhablements by Saint Paul described: and con­demne me (as the Countrey-poisoner hath done others) for say­ing that Saint Paul setteth downe an Idaea, that is a perfect sam­pler of an absolute minister for all to aime at, which hee vnskil­fully and calumniouslie detorteth, as if it were meant to be such a matter as cannot possiblie by any man bee attained: then let Saint Hierome, (a more learned minister then one hundred of [Page 102]the best of these) disputing this matter professedly, sit iudge betweene vs for a finall composing of this controuersie tou­ching degrees of learning, and other requisites for the mi­nisterie.

As Orators and Philosophers (saieth he) when they describe what kind of Orator or Philosopher they would wish to haue, Hier. ad Ocea­num epist. 83. doe none iniurie to Demosthenes or Plato, who happily are not so perfect, but describe the things without persons: so in the description of a Bi­shop, and in the exposition of those things that bee written, a glasse Sa­cerdotij of Priesthood, or of the ministerie, is set before vs: where you see the example of Idaea, or samplar confirmed. Touching the other point,Hier. ibidem. he saieth in the same Epistle thus. In that Saint Paul requireth a Bishop to be without fault, he comprehendeth in one word all vertues, and requireth almost a thing contrarie to nature, which is more then any of vs doe say of it. That this may not seeme lightly to haue in that place slipped him, or without deli­berate aduise: he disputeth it at large else-where: for speaking of Ecclesiasticall men,Hier. li. 1 adu. Pelag. ca. 8. he saieth: Many doe treate well vpon the Gospels, but in expounding the Apostle are not like themselues: other that very well vnderstand the new Testament, yet in the Psalmes and olde Testament are dumbe: this I say, because euery one cannot doe all. Ibidem. And againe: God hath giuen diuers precepts and manifold ver­tues, all which euery of vs cannot haue at once. So it commeth to passe, that which is excellent or perfect in some, is in others but in part: and yet he that hath not all, is not blameable, neither condemned for that he hath not, but iustified or approoued for that he hath. The example hereof he assigneth in bishops and ministers out of S. Paul, and after thus:Ibidem. Truly God would haue all bishops and ministers, such as the vessell of election teacheth. First, in that he saieth, a bishop must be irre­prehensible, either none is such, or hee is a very rare man: for who is there who hath not as it were some blemish or wart in a body otherwise faire, as Peter himselfe had? then, to be husband of one wife, sober, chast, comely, harborous, admit you may find them: but that which fo­loweth, [...], he that can teach, not docible (as the Latin reading full simply translateth it) yee shall hardly find with the other vertues. I am of opinion you shall hardly find such as shall be accused of none, that shall be of good account, euen with those that are without, so as they that cannot away with his doctrine, shall like his conuersation: but especi­ally [Page 103]ye shall hardly finde him that is mightie to resist the aduersaries, and to suppresse and conuince erronions opinions, so that either there is none, or he is very rare that hath all which a bishop ought to haue: and yet though one or two things in the Catalogue of bishops vertues bee wanting in any, he shall not thereupon want the name of a iust or fit bi­shop, neither shall he be condemned for that hee hath not, but shall bee crowned for that he hath: for to haue all and to want nothing, is his peculiar vertue who sinned not, and in whose mouth was no guile: which if they bee so hard all at once to bee found in Bishops, (who in comparison are but fewe) how shall they be found in euery minister, in so great a Church and nation, as is the realme of England?

To the Minor.

Onely he, &c. A minister may teach the people in plainenesse and trueth, though he be no exact preacher or pulpit man: This exclusiue, Onely hee, will exclude many of our opinatiue men, when they shall encounter with a craftie Iesuite. I know the most of them are not [...], able to confute false doctrine, howsoe­uer they be quicke enough to reprehend faultes, neither are able to dispute with a Iesuite or other subtile heretike, and yet you shall doe them fowle disgrace not to count them pulpit men and ministers.

The 2. Demonstration.

That which is to be done conditionallie, may not bee done,Demonstra­tion. the conditi­on not kept: Men are to bee receiued into the ministerie conditionallie if they bee vnreprooueable, Titus 1.5, 6. Therefore if they bee not such as is there described, and by consequence able to teach, they are not to be re­ceiued.

To the Minor.

This is a fond matter to be receiued into the ministerie condi­tionallie,Remon­strance. They must be before hand rather condicioned and qua­lified with giftes. Our Sauiour receiued Iudas into the Apostle­ship, whose conditions in his diuine foreknowledge, he knew to be bad, and him a deuil. The Apostles bestowed or conferred the Deaconship on Nicolaus, who afterwards prooued a Sectarie. As for the place to Tit. 1.5, 6. [...], if a man be without re­prehension, Not euery one who is no actuall preacher, falleth in­to this condemnation: Est quoddam prodire tenus sinon datur vltra, saith Horace. They may be able to teach profitably many points, [Page 104]yet not all. You heard S. Hieromes opinion hereof, to bee a thing scarce possible in nature, to be without all blame.

The 3. Demonstration.

That which cannot be done without manifest breach of Gods commaun­dement,Demonstra­tion. may not bee done at all. To receiue an vnable man to teach is so: Ergo, 1. Tim. 3.1. Tit 19. v.

To the Minor.

The whole Syllogisme is [...],Remon­strance. yet true and not in que­stion betweene vs, if hee vnderstand, that such (who haue no gift at all to teach, or in no measure can exhort or doe good) are not to be receiued.

The 4. Demonstration.

They whom God refuseth to be made ministers may not be receiued:Demon­stration. The Lord refuseth all that cannot teach, Osea, 4.6. v.

The place of Osea is,Remon­strance. Because thou hast refused knowledge, I will refuse thee: thou shalt be no priest to mee: because thou hast for­gotten the lawe of God, I will forget thy children. The Prophet spea­keth of wilfull blindnesse and disobedience, knowledge is [...] a thing immanent and not transitiue in that place.

It is certaine the Lord refuseth all those who are [...], abso­lutely vnfurnished of their gifts of learning: It is not meant com­paratiuely of those whom God endueth with meane gifts, who doe their best endeuor albeit they cannot aspire to an high emi­nencie or singularitie of learning, for teaching & preaching sub­stantiallie and orderly, as were to be wished in all.

The 5. Demonstration.

He that may bee admitted into the ministerie,Demon­stration. must deuide the worde of God aright, 2. Timothie 2.15. Onely hee that conuinceth the aduersarie, can doe so: Ergo,

To the Minor.

The Minor is ambiguous and false,Remon­strance. Onely hee, &c. for others also can deuide aright and giue Gods seruants spirituall foode with the competencie of those giftes, although they cannot [...], stop the aduersarie and gainesaier in all things. This one qualitie wil by a maine barre exclude most, or all of our busiest and waiwardest ministers.

The 6. Demonstration.

He that may be admitted into the ministerie must haue a treasurie furni­shed with old and new things, and able to bring it foorth. Matth. 13.52. v.Demonstra­tion. One­ly he that is able to teach is such, ergo,

To the Maior.

Our Sauiour speaketh of a man that is taught, not of the tea­cher,Remon­strance. [...]: and therefore the Demonstrator is beside his pur­pose. Here is nothing lesse meant then admission to the ministe­rie.

The Minor is as false as the Maior was:The Demon­strat. doth not onely, but also allegorize as before. for onely he that is able to teach, &c. You see, he that is of abilitie to learne, and to be taught, is so readie furnished with olde and newe, &c.

The 7. Demonstration.

He that can espie the enemie, and forewarne, must be admitted, Ezech. 33.7.Demonstra­tion. None can espie but an able man to teach, ergo,

The Maior is false being vniuersally taken.

This syllogisme would faine be in the third figure,Remon­strance. but it is in neuer a moode nor figure, but quem torra, pontus.

To the place of Ezechiel, I haue made thee a watchman to the house of Israel, thou shalt heare the worde at my mouth, and ad­monish them.

Euery man endewed with meane giftes in or out of the mi­nisterie, may admonish, though he that is a teacher may better admonish. And one of the meanest can many times descry and forewarne of the enemies approching.

The 8. Demonstration.

He that leadeth his people and himselfe to Hell, may not be admitted:Demonstra. he that is not able to teach, is so, ergo, 15. Matth. 14.

The Maior is a great waies about. The Minor is false in it self,Remon­strance. and in allegation of the text: If the blinde leade the blinde, Matt. 15.14. v. both fall into the ditch. It is too too peremptorie to make euery downefall into hell.

A man may fall, and rise againe: Septies in die cadit iustus. What blinde guide taught you to expound, [...], into hell, in foueam, for the locall place of hell?

He that is not able to teach in any tollerable measure, is a blind guide, but God forbid he should leade Gods people downe to hell of necessitie. But if you meane here, as before, teaching to be preaching, and that euery one that is no preacher leadeth into [Page 106]hell: The father, master, housholder, Catechist, and also many mi­nisters can teach and instruct their charges in godlines, who ne­uerthelesse are not able to make an exact sermon, and doe not therefore leade the people in the way to hell.

The 9. Demonstration or Allegation.Demonstra. Aug. l. de pastor. Remonstr.

Who preacheth not, but holdeth his peace, murdreth.

It is true in a metaphoricall sence, in those who are called, and haue the talent to discharge it as is required.

The 10. Allegation.Demonstra. Greg. 1. li. 33. ep. Remonstra.

He that preacheth not, is not sent, and so begetteth no faith.

Take the worde preaching in a larger comprehension, and it is equiualent to the worde teaching: and so it may cary shewe of a truth: but in that 33. epistle written to Venantius Chancellor of Italy, there is no such thing.

The 11. Allegation or Demonstration.

In that S. Paul requireth a bishop should be wise,Demonstra. Hier. ad Oecum. Remon­strance. be barreth those, who vn­der name of simplicitie, excuse the follie of Ministers.

Those who meane and deale plainely, doe quote the place of the author, whereby it may be easiest found: but how shall we by this direction ad Oecumenium finde that epistle which was neuer written for any copie of S. Hierom, that I can get or heare of?

The 12. Allegation or Demonstration.

We condemne all vnmeete ministers not endewed with giftes to feede a flocke.Demonstra. Confess. Heluet. Remon­strance.

Neither doe we absolue them, if they haue no giftes at all to doe good to their flocke.

You might take the other wordes with you: the harmelesse simplicitie of some in the olde Church did more good then the delicate finenesse but proud learning of others: fastuosiorem.

The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

There must be reading in the Church,Demonstra­tion. ergo, a reading ministerie.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

There must be breaking of bread, and powring of water, ergo, one whose of­fice must be to breake breade, and powre water.

There are sixe things that God hateth:Remon­strance with replie. take heede you be not within the compasse of all, as of some of them. This obiection was made pag. 252. in the defense of the answere to the admo­nition. But I am sure your answere is there: Os quodmentitur, [Page 107]occidit animam. True it is, you cannot vtterly condemne rea­ding: sith faith commeth by reading the Scriptures within booke, as by rehearsing them without booke. As the Lawe and Moses were read, so the Gospell in the eares of the hea­rers.

If you had obiected for vs thus:

There may be reading ministers, ergo, a reading ministerie. For a reading Minister is one that doeth a particular dutie in the Church, and a reading ministerie is a part of his dutie in the Church.

The consequence doth holde. Quod valet in vno coniugatorum, valet in reliquis, si sint & re, & nomine coniugata. As for the inferen­cie, there must be an officer for euery particular action. It is your owne absurditie, not our collection. As out of the 12. Rom. He that distributeth in simplicitie, ergo, there must be an officer of your Deaconship in the Church. May you not as well gather thus: he that sheweth mercie in cheerefulnes, ergo, a seuerall of­ficer of shewing mercie in the Church?

The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

Better to haue Readers, then none at all.Demonstra­tion.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

It is not better, for then they would seeke preachers. But why are the prea­chers turned out?

Where shall they finde for euery cure, by any narrowe see­king?Remon­strance with reply.

Those that be turned out, are but fewe, and fewer then de­serue it: preaching as they preach, may not patronize schisme, slaunder, scandale, and disobedience: not euery one that taketh vpon him to preach, is a preacher, nay according to the first De­monstration, and others of this chapter, and his interpretation of it, none be.

The hauing a Reader, debarreth not from seeking to a Prea­cher, and therefore it is better to haue readers then none at all. As for parrat Preachers, it is better to haue a discreete Reader, then one of them, who are bolde and hambolde to speake, but speake not to the purpose, or else speake schismatically, and therefore are turned out.

The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

It is impossible to haue preachers euery where,Demonstra­tion. ergo, readers.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

This is a disgrace to say it is impossible, and yet to say all is well, and to vio­late the Lordes decree.

He that is challenged so to say by you,Remon­strance with reply. saith it is not possible (as the state is nowe) to haue such supplie in euery free chappell, or place of seruice of a preacher: there is some difficultie in com­passing of this. But to depraue other mens word, is your speciall grace: as for breaking Gods decree, you must better proue it then you haue, or else neuer say that the parte of a ministers dutie to reade in the Church, to be thus vnlawfull. In the feare of God be it spoken, we will thanke God for our freedome both to reade Gods word, and preach, and pray for her Maiesties gratious con­tinuance: for so much quantitie of dominion, no such plenteous preaching is in all the world, as in her Maiesties dominion. God increase the number of learned and well aduised preachers.

The 4. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

It were vncharitablenes to turne bare Readers out:Demon­stration. for they, their wiues and chil­dren should begge.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

Better 3. or 4. begge, then damnation of 1000.

Yea it were iniustice and impietie to turne them away,Remon­strance with replie. be­cause they cannot preach: for they can exhort, and teache, and minister the sacraments, no such feare of damnation of a 1000. But it is your preiudice and condemnation to auouch, that by their ministerie God cannot saue soules. I doubt not but much better by sundrie mens labours, being but simple in learning, then by the most of that crue their vaine verball babling, which with griefe of heart I knowe the most of your humour to vse in sermons: for set aside a fewe resonant ill applied wordes culled together, to astonish the simple a litle for that time, what order, what learning, or any thing else, tending to the building of the inward man in spirituall knowledge, is to be founde in most of their speakings or exercises? So that I see no difference betwixt such vnlearned talkers, and the ignorant ministers (whome with great disdaine they terme neuer better then Dumbe dogges) but that these, because they cannot preach will not, and therefore are lesse impudent: the other in truth cannot barke, but yet will be [Page 109]bolde to be balling, though it be but against the Moone, or with running riot. How much different is S. Hieroms iudgement from yours? he saith thus: It is a fault in some Bishops, Hierom. [...] 19. [...]. that chuse not into the Clergie those who be the best, but who talke the best, non meliores sed argutiores, and thinke simple and harmelesse men to be vnliable for the ministerie.

The 2. Assertion of the Demonstrator.

That the Church ought not to be gouerned by Commissaries, Officials,Demonstra­tion. and Chancellors.

The 1. Demonstration.

They who are no elders, ought not to haue any thing to doe in the gouern­ment of the Church. 1. Tim. 5.17.

Those Chancellors, Commissaries, Officials are no elders, whether you take elder for a minister, or assistant, ergo,

To the Maior.

The Maior proposition is intricated both with schisme, vntruth,Remon­strance. and treason. For the Queenes Maiestie is no elder, no minister, no priest, and yet hath and ought to haue the gouernment of the Church: whereas such elders as you meane, haue nothing at all to doe in the Church, either by precept, or president.

The conuersion is false which the Demonstrator would haue gathered: Elders gouerne well, ergo, they that are no Elders doe not gouerne: others may gouerne in the actions of the Church, who are no pastorall elders, which is the answere to your Minor.

For Chancellors, Commissaries, Officials, they are assistant to the pastorall elders, or doe gouerne in foro litigioso, and yet many of them also pastorall elders and ministers. It is a loude lie to say, none of them are ministers. Well, the griefe is, that euery minister may not gouerne and rule without checke of all superiors, not onely bishops, or their substitutes, but any other. This is a wise Demonstration, which is a paralogisme, consisting all of nega­tiues, and is like to this, viz. No bishoply authoritie is lawfull: none eldership is a bishoply authoritie, ergo, none eldership is lawfull.

The 2. Demonstration.

They who must gouerne the Church,Demonstra. must haue a warrant for so doing from Christ: But the Chancellors, &c. haue no warrant from Christ, ergo,

The Maior is false, if you meane immediately from Christ,Remonstr. or [Page 110]especially and positiuely warranted, otherwise then as all superi­our power is of God. It is sufficient to be warranted from the Chri­stian Magistrate, & those who occupie the place of the Apostles: else a Maior, Sherife, and Constable, Iustice of peace, and maister of an Hospitall should haue an vnlawfull authoritie. For a man may no more deale without lawfull warrant in the Common-wealth, then he may doe in the externall gouernment of the Church.

To the Minor.

Their warrant is out of the worde of God. He that gouerneth in diligence, Rom. 12. The bishops and others make them partakers of their authoritie, by way of delegation and substitution, which in Church and Common-wealth is both lawfull: for not onely by the equitie, but by examples of Scriptures, and practise of the Primitiue Church substitution may be approoued lawfull.

The 3. Demonstration.

They whose names,Demonstra­tion. offices, and practise, be deriued from Antichrist, may not gouerne the Church of Christ: for who will suffer his wife to be gouer­ned by the maister of a Brothell house? but so are the names, &c. of our Chan­cellors, because they are grounded in the filthie dunghill of the Canon lawe: ergo,

To the Maior.

The Maior is of infinite distance from the Minor. Remon­strance. I answere to the Minor.

The name of Chancellor is not founde in all the Canon Lawe, in that sence it is vsed: but in the Ciuill Lawe of the Romanes is vsed for any chiefe assistant sitting intra eosdem tribunalis cancel­los cum Magistratu, as I haue learned of those who be skilfull, and is not repugnant vnto, but may be said to be deriued out of Gods lawe, if the deriuation be drawne à cancellis, to keepe vnbrideled or inordinate men intra cancellos, within their boundes. So the name of Commissaries, by reason of commission or matter of charge wherewith they are credited, or Officials, for the offices they beare, are most Christian names: else why doe themselues so often call their Tetrarches Church officers, a name not founde in Scripture, neither discipline in their sense, nor classis, nor prouincial, or nationall Synode.

As for the pillar the Minor leaneth vpon, to proue their offi­ces, and practise to be deriued from Antichrist, it is weake and [Page 111]vnstable, viz. All founded vpon the Canon lawe, is grounded vpon a dunghill. Some dunghill scholler made this Minor, to diminish and detract from the authorized Canons of the Church, vnder the odious name of the Popes lawe. For the Canon lawe which is re­teined with vs, is nothing but the olde Canons of the Primitiue Church, and such other approoued Iudicials in matters Ecclesia­sticall, as be neither contrarie to the prerogatiue royall, nor to the lawes and statutes of the Realme, and which had bene vsed be­fore the making of that acte of Parliament,25. H. 8. & are therefore since by diuerse actes in K. Ed. 6. daies, and in her Maiesties, honoured with the name of the kings Ecclesiastical lawes, and the Ecclesiasti­call lawes of this Realme, and they are in like sorte vsed in the Ec­clesiasticall Consistories of most of the reformed Churches in Germanie, as they are here, who doe as litle esteeme the Pope, as we can doe. Neither are some of those (which were set downe by the Popes authoritie) therefore vsed of vs, as binding this Realme in respect of the ordeiner, any more then Italy, Fraunce, or Spaine, be said to acknowledge the authoritie of the Romane em­perours ouer them, for vsing the ciuill lawes. For we doe there­fore onely practise them, because they concurre with the former statute enacting them, and being set downe by good aduise, are found equal and profitable. Those who disdaine them in respect of the author, doe shewe therein as witlesse curiositie, as if they would vrge vs to abandon all printing, because it was deuised first at Harlem by a Papist, or ceasse to defende our selues with gunnes, for that a Monke inuented them. But if the matter retai­ned displease them, as not conuenient nor according to rules of equitie: let all the wisest of them take all the seuerall cases pro­pounded throughout that lawe, and giue diuerse or cleane con­trarie decisions to that which is there giuen, and they shall there­by easily finde themselues either ridiculous, absurde, or vniust lawgiuers. The most of them are such as haue happened & may happen in Church gouernment. If they can finde the decision of them in the worde of God directly, we will then abandon all o­ther Canons, and onely followe theirs. The Church may not be without lawes in externall gouernment, and to referre all to the gouernours will, were a steppe to all tyrannie, and insolencie.

As for the slaunder, to call Christian Magistrates, or once [Page 112]to compare them to maisters of the stewes, they being the Eccle­siasticall lawes of this Realme, is a more filthie and beastly phrase of speech,Aconitum spu­nia Cerberi. then Cerberus the hound of hell could spewe. But we are too wel acquainted with these fowle blasphemous mouthes, & it is but sutable to the opinion they cary of the supreme Chri­stian Magistrates, and of their lawes Ecclesiasticall or Com­mon.

The 4. Demonstration.

They that being inferiors doe tyrannize ouer their superiors,Demon­stration. ought not to rule the Church: but such as they doe tyrannize ouer the ministers, to whom they are inferiours by the Canon lawe, ergo, they ought not to rule the Church.

This is not the issue in question:Remon­strance. for we say not that they are to rule the Church, but are ministers of iustice, according to the ordinances of the Church.

The Maior is not [...], yet true, so long as they doe tyran­nize ouer their superiours, they ought not to rule the Church.

To the Minor therefore: They who execute their office, with correspondence to their dutie, and according to lawes, doe not tyrannize, neither are they in place of iustice inferiour, but are in­feriour [...], in respect of the dignitie of the office of the ministe­rie. But this office of ministerie doth not alwaies worthie the per­son aboue euery calling, though not so sacred: else should euery ministers person be aboue any Lorde, or the Prince himselfe that chiefly dealeth but in matters of this life. Besides surrogatus sapit naturam surrogantis. If then the bishop who doth appoint them, be aboue an ordinarie minister, then are they also. In place of iu­stice, a meane Gentleman is superiour to a Duke conuented, and so is a poore Constable in matters of his office, by reason of them who giue the authoritie, and whose persons they beare. But thus we turne it home againe vpon themselues.

They that being inferiours doe gouerne the superiours accor­ding to their owne will,Retortion. without any direction of lawes, they doe proudly tyrannize, and consequently neither are to rule the Church, nor in the Church.

But your Lay elders, being of inferiour calling (as your selues confesse) to your Pastors and Doctors, and much more to the whole Congregation, doe gouerne them euen to the displa­cing [Page 113]or censuring them according to their owne wils and dis­cretions without all direction of lawes, which is tyrannie, and their platformes doe abrogate all lawes, but of their owne ma­king (which are not yet framed): and in deede experience tea­cheth, that their Consistories will not willingly tie themselues to any set lawes in their gouernment, which maketh their decrees concerning diuers persons (where the matter neuerthelesse is the selfe same) to be so diuers and contrarie: ergo,

Your laie elders doe proudly tyrannize, and so neither are to rule the Church, nor in the Church.

The 5. Demonstration.

They who liue by the faults of men, are not fit to rule the Church:Demon­stration. But all Chancellors, Officials, Commissaries doe so: Ergo,

To the Maior.

It is very false if it bee meant per accidens, to liue by faults,Remon­strance. as here it must needs be: for in this sort doe all iudges, iudiciall offi­cers and ministers hauing fees, liue by the wrong that the one partie doth to the other. So the clerkes of the crowne, of gaole deliuerie, and of peace, doe liue by the pleas against traitors, mur­derers, felons, and other malefactors, &c. and yet lawfull in the common weale: why not the like in the Church? Nemo militat proprijs stipendijs.

To the Minor.

O rash and temerarious iudgement: What art thou that iud­gest an other mans seruant? you may remember Horace saying,

Mendax infamia terret,
Quem nisimendosum & mendacem?

They do not liue but by honest fees, though they grew by oc­casion of faults, as the least part of them in deed doth, if any doe, and therefore the Minor very false and slaunderous. The matters whereupon their fees doe rise, are either beneficiall, tending to the title and maintenance of the ministerie: or testamentarie ten­ding to the performance of the deads will: or matrimoniall: or for preseruation of Churches and Church goods: or lastly, of pu­nishing faults, which the temporall law doth not punish, & those are either diffamation of a mans neighbours, at the sute of some partie, or of other faults, as blasphemie, sorcerie, adulterie, drun­kennesse, &c. the publike corporall punishment whereof, if it bee commuted into pecuniarie, to their owne priuate gaine, it is not [Page 114]by law warranted, but is the personall fault of the man, & deepe­ly punishable, and therfore this Minor is both without apparance of trueth, and very opprobrious.

The seuenth Chapter.

Assertion of the Demonstrator.

OFficers of the Church are to bee ordained by imposition of hands of the Eldership.Demonstra­tion.

The 1. Demonstration.

As in the Apostles time they were ordained, so they must bee still ordained: But in the Apostles time they were ordained by laying on of hands, &c. Ergo, they must continually be so ordained.

To the Maior.

This word As, Remon­strance. in the Maior proposition, importeth either the whole action of ordination it selfe, with the maner or forme, or the ceremonie alone vsed in ordaining: there is ambiguitie and doubting in this: Tell vs first which you vnderstand, and then we can tell you after, whether euery forme or accidentall ceremonie ought of necessitie to be vsed or refused now, which in the ordai­ning of ecclesiasticall persons was vsed then.

To the Minor.

But in the Apostles times, &c. by the Eldership, Act. 6. v. 6. and cap. 13.3. say you. Nay imposition of hands cannot be attributed to any eldership there, vnlesse you will force a strange interpre­tation of the text, viz. Apostleship to be Eldership, Apostles to be vnpreaching elders, & your elderships now to be as the Apo­stles were then in the Church: (for the first mention of Elders, viz. ministers is Act. 11.) And so all things may bee one: Om­nia sunt vnum: Turne Laitie into Clergie, and Clergie into Lai­tie, ouerturne all. In like wise no more probabilitie is to bee ga­thered out of the other place, Acts 13.3. There were in Antioch [...],Absurditie of the Demon­strator. In the Church as it then stood, certaine Prophets and teachers, as Barnabas and Simeon called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, Manahem and Saul. Now as they ministred and fasted to the Lord, [...], that is, [...], whiles they [Page 115]preached (saieth Chrysostome expounding that place) or whiles they ministred vnto or for the Lord. But how followeth it out of this place, that because there were Prophets and Doctors in the Church there: Ergo, there were vnpreaching Elders also, though not specificallie named to be there? Or, these fasted and prayed, and laied their hands vpon Barnabas and Saul: Ergo, other vn­preaching elders also laied their hands: you may as iustly con­clude, They were not there: ergo, they were there: or the elders laied not their hands: ergo, they laied on their hands. But hereof we thus reason against you.

As in the Apostles times they were ordained, so they must bee still ordained. In the Apostles ordinations is no one word of or­dination by such laie elders that might not minister the word and Sacraments, nor in any other pregnant place of Scripture, nor e­uer practised for fifteene hundred yeeres and an halfe in any Christian Church: Ergo, In ordinations your Elders must haue nothing to doe: for it were intollerable presumption where the holy Ghost mentioneth not nor insinuateth any such thing, for man to say they were neuerthelesse there. What like Elders to yours were at Mathias election, Actes 1. at the choise of the se­uen, Actes 6. where none are named but the Apostles and the rest of the beleeuers? At the separating of Paul and Barnabas in this place, Actes 13. but foure other Prophets and Doctors? at the ordination of so many ministers for sundrie Churches, Acts 14. other then Paul and Barnabas the ordainers, the ministers then newly ordained, and the people for whom they were or­dained? at Timothies ordination more then Paul, Per impositio­nem manuum mearum, as shall appeare? In Crete to assist Titus, ad Tit. 1. except you will say they had elderships before they had any Elders or yet ministers, or before the Churches were planted. And againe, If ordination must needes (as is here con­cluded) continually be made by the eldership, thē can no church or congregation newly to be established, elect and ordaine their owne ministers and Eldership. But in this case you doe attribute this whole action to the people of such congregation: ergo, by your owne rules all ordinations must not bee continually by the Eldership: for if it should, your Church gouernment shall neuer haue any beginning.

The 2. Demonstration.

Church officers must bee ordained by them who can assure them of their calling:Demonstra­tion. Onely the eldership can assure, 1. Tim. 4.14. Ergo,

I much muse how the author can terme his booke a Demon­stration.Remon­strance. So many chinkes in one planke argueth vnseasoned timber. The conclusion hath onely the Eldership, which onely lieth not in the Maior proposition. The Demonstration is neither for­mall nor materiall.

To the Minor.

Viz. Onely the Eldership can assure, 1. Tim. 4.14. that is no way the purpose of the place: as shall easilie appeare, Despise not the grace, or neglect not the grace which is in thee, and was giuen thee by prophesie, [...], With laying on hands of the Eldership. Whether you doe vnderstand and expound, Neg­lect not the grace which is in thee, and was giuen thee, by prophesie, that is by diuine oracle and imposition of handes, with prayer of other pastorall elders, as by speciall occasion of a speciall grace confirmed vnto thee (which Beza himselfe doth insinuate) and not his creation for the Ministerie: Or whether wee vnderstand, Despise not &c. the grace or gift which is in thee now, and was some­time by prophesie conferred vpon thee by a farther confirmation of the laying on, or imposition of hands, of the function and office of Pastorship and presbyterie which is laied vpon thee, as Caluin doth allow, rather then to be by any Colledge and officers of the presbyterie. It can neuer be vnderstood either in part or in whole, of a Laicall presby­terie to assure men of their ordinarie calling in the ministerie: for they that cannot conferre ye like grace, how can they by the imi­tation hereof assure the calling? In those dayes by laying on of hands, were often the visible graces of the holy ghost bestowed.

The fallacie is [...],Fallacie. secundùm figuram dictionis: For pres­byterie there is not the companie or colledge of ordainers, but the ordination or order giuen by one alone principall in his authori­tie: The figure is Metonymia, the signe, the imposition of hands for the thing signified.

At the least this is a foule absurditie,Absurditie of the Demon­strator. that neuer any was either in the practise of the Apostles Church, or succeedingly, or in our church assured of his ministerie, but by such a fansied presbyterie.

We therefore thus retort against you.

They who cannot assure or conferre like grace as was assured to Timothy, they haue nothing to doe to ordaine or lay on hands, (by the grounds & interpretation of your own place) your Elder­shippe neither do nor can assure or conferre like grace. Ergo, they haue not to do with ordinatiō or imposition of hands. And again, If only the eldership can assure men of their calling, as you assume in your minor, then cannot the classis or synodes ordeine ministers, being seueral assemblies, & offices in the Church, neither can the Demonstrator nor any of the faction, haue any assurance of their callings, Or els the Bishops calling is the calling by an Eldership: Then also the blessing that you imagine God giues to your la­bours, is none assurance of your calling. But you will not con­demne your selues for intruders, for running before you were sent, nor denie the fruites of your paines to giue assurance vnto you of your callings, nor allow the Bishop that ordeined you to be an eldership: Ergo, the ordination by an Eldership is not the onely way to assure a man of his calling, which is the contradi­ctorie of your minor. Besides that it is vnsounde diuinitie to say that the outward calling (in what sort soeuer) is an assurance of the inwarde as here is meant.

The 3. Demonstration or Allegation.

Many sentences before alledged out of Councels, lawes, histories,Demon­stration. writers old and newe, that speake for election by many, speake for ordination by ma­nie and not by one.

Albeit we did graunt for 200, yeeres after Christ,Remon­strance. the people in diuers places had voyces of acclamation, not of suffrages in ele­ction of their Bishops, yet had they not like in election of their pastours or priestes. As for ordeining, they had no part at al ei­ther for Bishops or priests at any time. The election at somtimes permitted before princes were Christian, and euen by Christian princes afterward, could not make them ordeiners: neither shall you find any acte of ordination giuen to any of the people. All Councels giue ordination of a Bishop to the Metropolitane or to the Bishops: & therfore to giue vnto the Church Aldermen, this authority egally distributed were geason & strange newes. Your reason roundly trussed vp is this: Election was by many peo­ples voices. Ergo, Ordination by many Elders hands: which is no se­quele. And why not by one? sith the designement is so by the ho­ly Ghost, Lay thine hands rashly on none: Timothie was but one, V­nus [Page 118]instar omnium, One in steede of all as representing all, as ha­uing the preeminence of ordeyning aboue all.

The 4. Demonstration or Allegation.

Euagrius came to a Bishopricke vnlawfully,Demon­stration. Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 23. because one Paulinus ordeined him contrary to the Canons, which prouide he must be ordeyned by all or by three at the least.

Theod. saith,Remon­strance. Plures canones simul violauit, Made him his successor being about to die, without the comprouinciall Bishops. And so say we, if any will aspire without the comprouinciall Bishops: but by your leaue wee doe not intend hereby to account euery parish priest, or inferior pastor to be priuiledged as a Bishop, which mea­ning I wote right well you haue.

The 5. Demonstration or Allegation.

When a Bishop is to be ordeined,Demonstra. Conc. Carthag. 4. ca. 23. one shal pronounce the blessing, and the rest of the Bishops with elders present shall lay on their hands.

This is ca. 2. distinct. 23.Remon­strance. But it is false play to foist in your elder­ship into the Canon: for it is reliqui omnes episcopi, which is the vse in our consecration of Bishops, where all the Bishops present, and in our ordination of ministers, where all the ministers present lay on hands with the Bishop.

The 6. Demonstration or Allegation.

When a Bishop is ordeined,Demonstra. Cypri. li. 1. epi 4 the Bishops adioyning did ordeine him.

We graunt Cyprian: Remon­strance. but ordination of a minister & consecration of a bishop, neither with Cyprian nor the councel are alone thing. See Conc. Carth. 4. ca. 3. qualiter presbyteri ordinentur.

The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

Paul and Barnabas ordeined Elders,Demonstra­tion. and no mention made of Eldership.

The Answere of the Demonstrator.

They are saide to ordeine, because they were chiefe in ordeyning, as Iosua was said to circumcise which was the Leuites office. Ios. 3. ver. 5. cap. and the Queene sayde to make a lawe, and not she alone.

The Argument holdeth good:Remon­strance, with reply. P. and B. did ordeine Elders, Ergo, Elders did not ordeine one another. As for the pieuish in­terpretation: They did ordeine, that is, chiefly ordeine, as Iosua, it is expresly in the Text, That the Lord bidde Iosua make sharpe kniues and circumcise: Ergo, by diuine Oeconomie he might do it: or in the 8. ver. is a clearer construction, when they had made an ende of circumcising, the Leuites did circumcise: and Iosua commanded, but nothing is in the Text that after Paul and Bar­nabas had ordeyned, the others made an ende of the action, and [Page 119]therefore were no parties in the beginning, middle or end of the same: for they commended them to the grace of God: so your similitude or exemplifying in neither of these doth holde. And what reason is this? Iosua is saide to doe that which he comman­deth others to do. Ergo, Paul & Barnabas who commanded none others: but imposed handes themselues (as wee both confesse) had others to ioyne with them: and so by this wise constructi­on, these Churches had Elderships (of no mans calling) before they had Ministers: and if they had not had such, neither Paul nor Barnabas had beene able to haue ordeyned them any mini­sters, for want of their assistance.

The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

Albeit then so, not so nowe: No more then communitie in the Apostles time.Demonstra­tor.

Answere.

There was no more communitie then, then now: for they are Anabaptistes who so thinke: Ergo, the instance maketh for vs.

The instance maketh litle for you,Remon­strance, with reply if you defende communi­tie of all: quoad [...], both for proprietie and vse, or that a man may now say as then, [...], they had all common, solde their possessions and goodes, deuided to all as euery man had neede. 2. Act. 45. verse. Neither did any man say [...], ought of his goodes to be his proper owne: but all was common. Act. 4.32. This is right Anabaptisticall if you so say, that eyther proprietie or egaltie of the vse, is eyther common to all, or chalengeable by any now a daies.

The thirde Obiection of the Demonstra­tor.

Examples are no generall rules to be followed.

The Answere of the Demonstrator.Demonstra­tor.

Examples not contrary to rules or reason of Scriptures are to be followed as if they were commandements.

Yea but a generall doctrine of a particular example or singu­lar may not be concluded:Remon­strance, with reply. we may not follow the examples of the Apostles and the time, which were peculiar vnto them & to the time, but such as the Apostles would haue vs to embrace and follow. But you haue for ordinations by Lay men, neyther rule, reason, example, neyther in Scripture nor at anie time since, til at Geneua they begunne it, not as an ordinaunce of Christ (as is [Page 120]now vrged) but as a kinde of gouernment in Church causes, fit­ting that popular state. Gualter complaineth that whereas at first they of Geneua writ to them of Zuricke for aduise, but whether they might plant such a gouernement, they did after finde fault with the Tigurines for not establishing the like. What is this but to make Geneua the protestantes Rome, whereunto all others must conforme?

The eight Chapter.

The Assertion of the Demonstrator.

THE ordayning of Church officers must be by prayer of the Eldership,Demonstra­tor. and the Congregation. Eccles. Discipl. fol. 50.

The Demonstrator quoteth one of his fel­lowes for this:Remon­strance. as if it were Saint Paul: God wote it is a sillie fellowe, The Ecclesiastical disci­pliner. But he need not slanderour ordination as done in a corner, [...],Act. 26.27. None of this (as Paul said so can wee say) hath bin done in a corner, they may come to the celebration of it, if they lift to come. I will trusse vpshorter these three waste Demonstrations.

  • 1 We must behaue our selues as the Apostles and Elders did.
    Demonstra­tor.
  • 2 By how much greater the action is, by so much more humble our selues in prayer.
  • 3 The Eldership & the people haue part of the comfort or discomfort.

Ergo, All ought to ioyne together in prayer.

We confesse al this,Remon­strance. but bid them first proue their new formed eldership must alway be a partie, not onely of the solemnitie, but of the necessitie of the action.

I obserue by the way this: The Apostles and they who did or­deyne, ioyned therewith,Act. 13. Act. 14. fasting and prayer, Act. 13. Act. 14. which our Demonstrator leaueth out, who otherwise are so cu­riously precise, in bynding vs to the example of primitiue imi­tation. Belike fasting is popish, except they that fast be holden to­gether with foure or fiue Sermons arowe, that they cannot breake their fast though they would, except they doe as some Iurors do, bring some what in their pockets with them.

The ninth Chapter.

FOr the profite of imposition of hands the Demonstrator vseth three Demonstrations.Demon­stration.

  • 1 That which stirreth euery party to feruencie must be vsed.
  • 2 That which helpeth forward the party ordeyned in his care.
  • 3 That which worketh an acknowledgement of Gods ordinance in the peoples hearts, must be vsed.

So is the ceremony of laying on handes: Ergo, it must be vsed.

The Demonstrator is busied about matter of ceremonie:Remon­strance. let him alone in Gods name. But this ceremonie that thus is vsed would haue beene better vnderlaide with scripture: especially where such notable effectes (not onely as signes) bee attributed vnto it, and by those that pretend the least matter, may not bee admitted in Church matters, without direct proofe out of Scrip­ture.

This maketh nothing for the new conceiued Eldership of Lay Presbyters, who are to be erected forsooth to prophane our holy and sacred ordination, & make it cōmunicable with the common people. Here I obserue, that to this ceremonie not onely a signifi­cation of a doctrine (as they therfore cauil against the signe of the crosse in Baptisme) but euen spirituall effectes are attributed, vz. to stirre vp Feruencie in prayer, a feeling sensible of the charge spiri­tuall layd vpon the ordeyned, to worke a care of walking in a good con­science, and to giue hope of Gods continual assistance in that calling. If we had sayde halfe so much, it had bin making a new Sa­crament, popish, and blasphemie at least: But this Chapter maketh not against vs, who retaine it, but those reformed churches that haue left the imposition of hands in ordi­nations.

The tenth Chapter.

The Assertion of the Demonstrator.

ONe Bishop at the least must be president ouer euery con­gregation,Demon­stration. which Bishops are equal in their seueral char­ges, & in the general gouernment of the Church.

Out of this Assertion of one B. President, are deduced two branches.Remon­strance.

  • 1 One may haue but one benefice.
  • 2 One may not bee aboue another: but all this serueth for their parish Bishops.

The 1. Demonstration.

One may not haue more then he is able to discharge: No man in anie measure is able to discharge more then one,Demon­stration. because hee cannot preach in season and out of season: Ergo, none may haue more charges then one.

The whole conclusion is of negatiues, if the Demonstrator will speake congruitie:Remon­strance. for one may not, is as much as none may haue: Besides, the Medium is praedicatum in maiore subiectum in minore: But we must forgiue you this misdeede, though it be not primum tempus: with you it is a common fault.

To the Minor.

One and the same morter wil dawbe your Maior & Minor. No man may haue more then hee is able to discharge in some measure, per se aut vicaria fide, By himselfe or his sufficient depu­tie: as for deputation, it is lawful both in ciuill and Ecclesiastical functions: or make instance to the contrary. As for the reason he cannot preach [...], nothing is so sure as that hee may preache both by worde, example, and hospitalitie, though he doe not al­wayes corporally reside. The rectorie of a small village or towne­ship is not as the gouernment of a whole citie & territorie, which did import Titus and Timothie to doe their dutie in season and out of season in straiter measure. Besides the Minor is false, for in good measure may one man discharge two, not farre distant, & preach as shalbe sufficient at both. If you so vnderstand in season and out of season, as if a man should preach continually, then shall not a man haue any time to pray, which he is also willed to doe continually: then shall there be no cause of being away allowed, no not for an houre, which your selues find to be absurd, & ther­fore take as much libertie many of you, as any that hath two cures doth at either.

The 2. Demonstration.

That which maketh an open entrance to the enemy to spoyle,Demonstra­tion. cannot be lawfull.

To haue more charges then one doeth so: Ergo, vnlawfull.

To the Minor.

It is not the diuersitie of charges, for it is alway Regimen ani­marum, Remon­strance. one regiment or cure of soules, nor the hauing them, but the hauing no care of them, which is a spoyle left to the enemie. A man may be absent, and yet haue continuall care, and leaue both direction and instruction for them. I pray you who driues the diuel away from your cures, when you are at Synodes, at your Classies, at Termes, at Parliamentes, in visiting your friendes in halfe a dozen shires?

The 3. Demonstration.

That which is from Antichrist, is vnlawfull.Demonstra­tion.

To haue more then one is from Antichrist: Ergo, vnlawfull.

I may reason also thus, euen with as great probabilitie:

To follow the example of S. Paul, is to follow Christ.Remon­strance. To haue more charges to looke vnto then one, is to follow S. Paul: cura omnium ecclesiarum incumbit mihi, I beare a care of all Churches: Ergo, to haue more charges then one is to folow Christ. Ergo, it is not simpliciter euil to haue more charges then one. For none can follow two contrary masters, Christ & Antichrist: neither is it ab­solutely to haue more charges then one, deriued from Anti­christ: and therefore your Minor is false.

The 4. Demonstration.

That which declareth a minister to be more desirous of the fleece then to profit the flocke, that is vnlawful. But moe charges then one is so: Ergo. Demonstra­tion.

This fallacie is non causa pro causa. Remon­strance. To haue more charges then one, proceedeth not from [...] couetise of more, but from [...] sufficiencie or competencie of liuing, and from priuiledge & fauour of the law. For they that preach the Gospell, must liue of the Gospel: as also the Geneua note vpon these words. 1. Timoth. 5.17. Qui benè praesunt presbyteri duplici honore digni sunt, that is, they must haue sufficiēt maintenance. But that expositiō is not the on­ly meaning of the text: for double honour is something more then sufficient maintenance: the proportion is double [...]. Now double is more then sufficient, and honor presupposeth mainte­nance: or els it wil be very single honor.

The 5. Demonstration.

He may not haue more charges,Demonstra­tor. vnlesse he be willing to be quartered, that euery charge may haue a peece.

The Demonstrator is at great coste and charges to bestowe this argument:Remon­strance. but I take it, that if euery quarter of the Citie had a quarter of him that made this Demonstration, and many like to this, whatsoeuer came to the H. mans part, he could not boast of the least fraction, vna quarta, one fourth part of an honest man.

The 6. Demonstration or Allegation.

Hooper vpon the 8. commandement, reckoneth them among theeues, and their actions theeuerie,Demonstra­tion. by that commandement.

His wordes are 76. pag. super 8. com.

Such as liue of spirituallty thes, Remon­strance. &c. who do neglect their dutie in teaching & office, commit sacriledge: he speaketh against vnable men, or those who haue more then competency with vndesert.

The 2. Assertion of the Demonstrator.

One minister may not haue soueraigne authoritie and Lordship ouer his fellowe ministers.Demonstra­tion.

The Demonstrator cannot distinguish betweene soueraign­tie, dominion,Remon­strance. or entier Lordship, which is one thing, and superi­oritie or authoritie ouer others, which are different things both in Church and Common-wealth.

The 1. Demonstration.

They that haue their commission indifferently giuen them without diffe­rence, are equall,Demonstra­tion. and not one aboue another: But such is the commission of all Ministers. 28. Matth. 19.20. ergo, equall not one aboue another.

To the Maior.

Although par in parem non habet imperium, Remon­strance. touching the com­mission, yet in other respects in comparably they may be superi­or one vnto another, as experience daily teacheth. If you were in a commission of peace, &c. with my Lorde Treasurer, would you be his equall therefore, and as good as he?

To the Minor.

There are two commissions included in 28. Matth. One, as they were Apostles, chiefe builders, and planters of Churches, in which respect they had also gouerment & authoritie ouer them, and such they also gaue to bishops of places, as Timothie and Ti­tus, whome they so ordeined: Another, in that they are also Pa­stors, and herein euery minister is their successor, as bishops only in the other respect. The one bringeth equalitie in the essence, & [Page 125]for the exercise of the ministerie, the other an inequalitie of au­thoritie & rule, that are exercised in the Church, and must be for gouernment and order. An instance is the very example of the A­postles, whereof some were chief pillars, chiefe Apostles, & Iames a standing superior amongst the Apostles at Ierusalem, Act. 15. 2. Cor. 12. Bishops and ministers are for their ministerie equal, but for order & policie of the Church in gouernment vnequal: This is both Caluins and Bezaes answer.

The 2. Demonstration.

That which Christ hath directly forbidden, is for euer vnlawfull.Demon­stration.

But Christ hath directly forbidden this dominion of one minister ouer an other, Matth. 20.25. Luc. 22.25. Ergo,

To the Maior.

This is directly auerred: for that is directly forbidden,Remon­strance. which by one of the 10. commandements, or by some new commande­ment, or speciall forbode is forbidden, not that alwaies which in the letter of ye word seemeth forbidden: Els were it not lawful to sweare at al, nor to cal any mā your father on earth, nor to preach to the Gentiles. Christ forbiddeth arrogant dominion or domi­nation, not all authoritie. Absolute tyrannicall dominiō is forbid­den among all christiās. Aristot. in his politikes maketh [...], the dominion of Barbarians. To your places the answer is: Our Sauiour destroyeth not there either his owne primacie, or the su­perioritie of the Apostles ouer other callings ecclesiasticall infe­riour, but rather establisheth it, attempering them neuertheles to humilitie. He that is great, or will be great amongst you, [...], Let him be your seruant: or as Luke 22. [...], he that is greatest, let him be as punie, [...], the chiefest as he that serueth: he doth not deuest himselfe of lawful superioritie, but willeth them after his owne example to be inuested with hu­militie: for he himselfe did not degrade himselfe from his supre­macie, when by washing of their feete he serued them.

But because this is a matter that they do no lesse insist vpō and applaud vnto themselues in, then the papists doe in their Hoc est corpus meum, I wil craue leaue that I may a litle dilate hereupon, further then that breuitie requireth which I first propounded to my self. In those two places of S. Mathew & S. Luke, are to be cō ­sidered both what Christ reprooued, & also the general doctrine [Page 126]which by that occasion he deliuered. If both the stories be to be vnderstood of one action, then must we interprete, that the con­tention of all the Apostles (who of them should be the greatest men­tioned by Luke) had his original occasion of the request of Zebe­dees children, at which the other Apostles tooke indignation, as Mathew testifieth: both they and all the Apostles dreamed of an earthly kingdom of Christes: and therefore to sit at his right hand, and at his left, and to be the greatest, was an honour and ciuil prehe­minence and authoritie next vnto Christ in such his kingdome that they shot at. He reprooued therefore this erroneous conceit, and for thinking that ciuil iurisdiction should appertaine to them as they were apostles, and drew them to another consideration of his heauenly kingdome. If they desired that to be giuen them to haue the very condition & state of their persons so aduanced with earthly honor & authoritie ciuil (in regard of some speciall affe­ction which each of thē seuerally supposed Christ did beare vnto him) in this respect was it their ambition ye was reprooued. But if ech of thē thoght such an honor due to himself by reasō of some excellēt qualities aboue others which he fansied to be in himself, then was their arrogancie and want of humilitie withall rebuked. And lastly, [...], the brawle & contention that all the apostles burst foorth into about this matter, was by our Sauiour taxed and blamed. Now the BB. in this church of England do not claime a­ny ciuil iurisdiction or authoritie to be incident to their callings, although (if as citizens of the common weale & subiects) some such be imposed vpon them by the prince, as they may not law­fully refuse, so (we know) they may lawdablie vse it. But if either erroneously any of them should thinke ciuil iurisdiction of or vn­der earthly princes to belong vnto them as successors of the apo­stles, or if they seeke after any authoritie whatsoeuer, ambitiously, arrogantly or contentiously, such should iustly incurre our Saui­ors censure and reproofe in this place. In that by the law and cu­stomes of the land, they haue the title of lordes, this is not [...], simplie in it selfe, in regard of their bishoprikes, but by rea­son of the Baronries which are annexed of old vnto those digni­ties, & yet it is but a mere title of external honor, as [...] with the Gręcians, & Dominus with the Latins, without any authoritie or iurisdiction annexed. For there is neuer a lord in the land, either of [Page 127]the ecclesiastical or ciuill state, that hath any iote of authoritie or iurisdiction in him as he is a Baron. Neuertheles, the apostles and BB. their successors are not therfore without all rule & superiori­tie: for they are termed [...], ouerseers, [...], gouernements or gouernors, [...], men set ouer others, [...], rulers, guides or directers, [...], feeders & rulers, which they cannot be, except they haue some rule, gouernment, & authoritie. But this rule and authoritie is but ecclesiasticall, whereas that which was affected by the apostles, was ciuill: which ecclesiastical authoritie, whether it be wholy or in part condemned by that generall doctrine there deliuered by our Sauior, doth now rest to be considered. We are therfore in these words Vos autē non sic, it shal not be so amongst you, to note these two things: viz. vnto whom such prohibition rea­cheth, & what rule it is which is there forbidden. First, it was not spoken to the apostles as they represented the whole Church, as may appeare by the example, ye Christ propoundeth to thē of his own abasing of himself. Neither was it forbiddē so to euerie one of them seuerallie, as if it might haue bene permitted to them all together, or to the greater part of them: Quia nihil est in composito quod non est in simplicibus, vel actu vel saltem habitudine: If no one of thē might exercise such rule nor any part of it, thē cannot they altogether haue it: neither yet was the prohibition personall to them, for then it would follow that albeit no one of them might haue authoritie ouer the rest, yet their successours neuerthelesse (whether more properly taken as bishops, or generally as all mi­nisters of the word) might haue had such authoritie as is there for­bidden, which were absurd to imagine: so that the prohibition reacheth to thē all, & to euery one of them, & to their successours also. The whole difficultie therfore now resteth in this, what kind of authoritie or rule either ecclesiastical or ciuil it is, which vnder the words [...], or [...], & [...], is forbidden. And because there are many resemblāces between ecclesiastical & ciuil autho­ritie, & the exact laying foorth of ciuil authoritie serueth aptly for the vnderstanding of ye other, I wil distribute ciuil or temperal au­thoritie into his parts & differēces according to Arist. & other Po­liticiās. Authoritie ciuil or temporal (as we speake) is either oeco­nomical, such as is exercised within ye limits of one family: or Po­liticall ouer greater societies. Oeconomicall is either [...], of the [Page 128]husband ouer the wife being the most moderate: Or [...] the authoritie of the father ouer the children being more ample: or [...] which is of two sortes: either of the housholder ouer such of his houshold as bee of condition free men, and is lesse milde then the other two, or of the Lord ouer his bondmen and vil­laines, which is most seuere and absolute of all the others. Poli­ticall authoritie is either supreme, that is, Soueraigne, or els subor­dinate and delegated. Soueraigne or supreme is either Absolute cal­led [...] which is of two sortes: [...] that is, Seigneuriall, such as the good Emperors of Rome had and vsed, who though they had all authoritie in thē without restraint, so that their word was a law, yet did they vse it according to the rules of ciuill hone­stie & iustice: or [...] tyrannous, where not onely their will is a law, but they also vse it contrary to all rules of ciuill honestie or iustice, as the Empire of the Turkes, Russes and other Barbari­ans: or limited by certaine boundes of lawes. That which is Soue­raigne and yet limited, is also of two kindes: either wholy limited by lawes, as is the authoritie of ordinarie chiefe magistrates in all free common weales, as the dukes of Venice, &c. or restrained but in part, as for the most part in all monarchies and kingdoms. For albeit kings and such soueraigne Monarches are so tied to lawes, as that they cannot dispose of their subiects liues, or liuelihood and goods contrary to them, yet are they at libertie to allowe or disallow lawes to be made, to enhance or decrie the price or stan­derd of their coines, to pardon offenders condemned by law, and to make warre or peace, truce or league. Those which haue subor­dinate or delegated authoritie by the supreme magistrate, they may not claime nor exercise more then is allowed vnto thē either by commissiō or by law. Of all these authorities there is none (as I take it) simply vnlawfull, but ye tyrannicall gouernment which maketh self-wil a law. And therefore this both here and also by other pla­ces is simply forbidden to all Christians both in ciuill & ecclesia­stical gouernment. Now to apply these more neerely by ye autho­ritie ye bishops haue in this realme, a matter so impugned by these men, It cannot be resembled vnto oeconomicall (albeit in some sence a bishop is called the father of those in his charge, and the husband of that church whereof he is bishop) & that for two cau­ses: First, in that his authoritie is not contained in the straites of [Page 129]one familie, but reacheth ouer many seuerall families, and con­gregations of people: Another, for that the bishops authoritie is tied by lawes, not only what not to do, but he is appointed also what to doe: whereas oeconomicall authoritie hath no publike lawes positiue, commaunding a man howe to gouerne his familie, but onely negatiue, what they may not doe in that gouernment, as not to wound nor kill wife, childe, nor seruant, &c. As for su­preme authoritie, whether Ciuill, or Ecclesiasticall, absolute, or limi­ted, our bishops neither haue, nor claime. It is that which they cō ­demne in the Pope by this place, as well for that as successor of the Apostles, he claimeth both swordes, & all earthly kingdomes to be his to dispose, sinon actu, saltem habitu, (as Bellarmin distin­guisheth:) as for that in matters Ecclesiasticall, he claimeth and vsurpeth, not onely Seigneuriall, but euen tyrannicall authoritie. For he saith he may iudge all, and be iudged by none, may carry millions of soules to hell, and none may say to him, Domine curi­ta facis? Sir why doe you so? may command Angels to carry and recarry soules at his pleasure, may pardon sinnes past & to come, for so long or short a time as him listeth, and in matters of Eccle­siastical liuings, nay in all causes, may doe what he list: and there­fore is iustly condemned by this place, as [...] and [...] one exercising a Lordly, absolute, and tyrannous authori­tie. There resteth then vnto bishops of this Realme, none other but subordinate or delegated authoritie, which they haue partly from God, partly from the soueraigne christian Magistrate. From God they haue, either first to plant, or else to gouerne, and direct Churches already planted: to ordeine ministers and deacons, and likewise the vse of the keies, either by loosing the penitent accor­ding to Gods worde, or binding the impenitent, which last is done by admonition, reprehension, suspension, excōmunication, and by anathematisme. The three first of which censures, are with vs euen in practise common to all ministers of the word, so farre as suspension is taken for debarring from the sacramēt of the sup­per. The last two, though by all practise of antiquitie in purer times they were principally and especially attributed to bishops: yet not so, but that other ministers of the worde (vnto which the keies are annexed,) may not vnlawfully herein concurre with them, if the lawes of the Church (for weightie causes) doe not [Page 130]otherwise dispose, which they haue done here in England (as I take it) by reason of the sundrie ciuill effects which excommuni­cation and anathematisme by lawe doe worke, and are such as without great inconuenience and confusion cannot be permit­ted to euery minister in his cure, that haue but slender skil, no di­rection of lawe in this behalfe, none autentique seales to certifie of record, nor temporalities to be seised for not performance of the Queenes writtes, that lie in such cases: as de cautione admit­tenda, de excommunicato deliberando, &c. And these former be the pointes wherein bishops authoritie is from God, and not of man: but now from the soueraigne Prince by the mediating of lawes, bishops haue set downe vnto them the places where, the com­passe of territorie howe farre, the manner howe, with other cir­cumstances of executing both the former authorities, and also their iurisdiction, Likewise they haue assistance of their iurisdicti­on sundrie waies from the Prince and lawes, for the sounder exe­cution thereof, and better bridling of offenders, as to burne an Heretike, to imprison a person obstinately remaining excommu­nicate aboue 40. daies, with such like. Lastly, they haue the heads and matters wherein their iurisdiction is occupied by and from the Christian Magistrates authoritie, in whome as supreme Gouer­nour, all iurisdiction within her dominions, aswell Ecclesiasticall as Ciuill, by Gods and mans lawe is inuested. Such matters in this Church of England so attributed to bishops, are causes of titles of benefices, matters of maintenance for Ministers, vphol­ding of Churches and Churchyardes, of matrimoniall contracts and diuorces, testamentarie, diffamatorie, (where there is breach of charitie, and none action lieth thereupon at the Common lawe,) or lastly punishing of sundrie crimes termed Ecclesiasti­call, being such as are not at all punishable at the Common law, or els are left by lawe to be punished by either authoritie. And in this respect may this part of bishoply function not vntruely be saide to be deriued from the supreme Christian Magistrates au­thoritie and supremacie, which they haue vnder God. By which may appeare both the vndutifulnes of Popish Bishops, and of the factious Consistorials: the first whereof deriueth their iuris­dictions Ecclesiasticall within all Christian kingdomes from the Pope: and the other will needes deriue theirs immediately from [Page 131]God, and that in larger manner and in moe matters then bi­shops in England may any way exercise: for they of the facti­on attribute therein no more vnto soueraigne Princes, but to be gouerned in that behalfe by them, and to defende the exercise thereof by their temporall sworde: whereas our bishops cannot make any newe Ecclesiasticall decrees, without the Princes au­thoritie both precedent and subsequent, and in the whole course of their function are tied strictly and precisely to obseruation of due course of lawe: which if either negligently or wilfully they shall violate, it is remediable by appellation: the last re­sorte wherein is to the Soueraigne Prince her selfe, who hea­reth and finally determineth it by her Iudges delegated. So that by this discourse it plainely appeareth, that our Bishops ney­ther clayme nor yet exercise any ciuill authoritie at all as Bi­shops, that their authoritie Ecclesiasticall is but subordinate vn­der God and the Prince, moderated exactly both positiuely and priuatiuely by good lawes, deriued for the moste parte from the Prince, and reformable by her: Not supreme, not absolute, not tyrannicall, not Seigneuriall, nor Lordely, accor­ding to the Rulers luste: And therefore no way touched or meant, much lesse by these places condemned, as the De­monstrators Assumption more boldely then eyther skillful­ly or truely importeth. But out of these groundes thus wee reason, and bende the nose of the Cannon against them­selues.

If the bishops authoritie be condemned by these two places, as they would inferre, then is all greater and more absolute au­thoritie exercised by persons Ecclesiasticall, much more to be condemned: But your selues doe claime and exercise greater and more absolute authoritie then the bishops: namely to haue your Consistoriall iurisdiction not deriued from the Princes authori­tie, but supreme vnder God, and that in all causes of doctrine, or manners, so farre as appertaineth to conscience, to make lawes and orders Ecclesiasticall, without her knowledge or consent, to sitte and determine as your selues iudge best, without any gui­ding of lawes, to haue your sentences once giuē to stand in force (though they be appealed from) vntil they be in the last instāce reuersed, to excommunicate your Soueraigne, & consequently [Page 132]to discharge your selues for that time of all actuall obedience, to call your Synodes and Classies without her writte, and to haue the last appellation not to runne vnto the Prince, but vnto a nationall Synode. All which being true notes of soueraigntie in iurisdiction, are at least, [...] Lordly or Seigneuriall, if not tyranni­call: ergo, that which is by you claimed and exercised, is in deede by Christ there condemned. Neither is it the bare ciuill title of Lorde, which is giuen to bishops, without any authoritie in that respect, that will helpe you against vs here: for the Scripture gi­ueth not lawes to wordes, but to the matters themselues. Yours is Lordlines in deed, when you both practise these things against her Maiesties royall supremacie, and will haue her to throwe her scepter downe, and to licke the dust of the feete of your Church, viz. your Presbyterie, an epitome or representation of euery seue­rall Congregation or Church.

The 3. Demonstration.

They that may not be Lords ouer Gods people, much lesse may be Lordes ouer the ministers,Demonstra­tion. who are aboue the people: but the first is true, ergo, the se­cond.

To the Maior.

The Maior with a litle more helpe will make themselues Lordes.Remon­strance. For I doe assure you this, no Bishop is Lord ouer the peo­ple, but a Lorde in respect of his owne Baronrie. It is more to be aboue the people in deede, then to be a Lord vnto the people in phrase of speech, or obsequious worde. Nowe forsooth the Mini­sters are aboue the people, that is, their betters, and in authoritie ouer them, as this Maior doth import.

To the Minor.

Lordlines is one thing, in malam partem: Lordship is another. S. Peter (say you) forbiddeth it. 1. Pet. 5.3. (on whome you say we father Lordlines) to be Lordes of Gods heritage, [...]. Nay Peter writeth to the bishops, or gouerning pasto­rall Elders, such as himselfe: [...] I a fellowe elder, not to tyrannize ouer the flocke, but to be example to the faithfull. The place of Peter and your collection, maketh against your selues,Retortion. To say ministers may haue dominion ouer the people, but Ministers may not haue dominion ouer ministers: that is, Mini­sters may rule, and not be ruled. The drift of the place is, Ministers [Page 133]may not tyrannize or haue absolute commaund ouer the people, or ouer one another. I referre me to the answere made to the se­cond demonstration of this matter.

The 4. Allegation or Demonstration.

It is ordeined that euery mans fault must be heard,Demonstra. Cypr. lib. 1. epi. 3. Remon­strance. where the accusers and witnesses are: ergo, euery Minister had authoritie ouer his flocke.

The Illatiue is, ergo, euery bishop hath his limited proper iu­risdiction. Cyprian complained thus: Paucis desperatis minor vi­detur esse authoritas episcoporum in Africa. Certaine desperat com­panions thought worse of the bishops authoritie in Afrike, then else where. He founde fault with those that went to Rome out of the prouince, not for going out of the Parish with the cause, as you insinuate.

The 5. Allegation.

Bishops in all the worlde are equall to Parish ministers:Demonstrat. Luth. aduer. Pa­pat. à Satana fundat. Remon­strance. some are of better giftes, which giftes cause no Lordship.

Luther confuteth the supremacie of the bishop of Rome: Pa­pam non esse caput christianitatis, & Dominum mundi: And that all bishops whether of Eugub. or Rome, Rheg. or Constantinople, A­lexand. Tauis, are equall for the ministerie and heires of the See Apostolike.

The 6. Allegation.

The Ministers in the Apostolike Church none aboue other,Demonstrat. Muscu. [...]e com. de verbi minist. were subiect to no Head nor President.

That is, no vniuersall Head: otherwise Musculus vpon the 20.Remon­strance. of Matth. alloweth Gouernors, Presidents, Rulers in the church.

The 7. Allegation.

A Bishop taking the honour from the Ministers,Demonstra. Idem super 2. Thess 8.2. was the first steppe to Pa­pacie.

That is, translated from them to erect a newe Ministerie,Remon­strance. or an illimitable authoritie in the Church, which a bishoprike vnder the Gospell is not, neither of the 7. steppes to Papacie.

The 8. Allegation.

Christ did forbid the Apostles primacie and dominion.Demonstraet, Confess. Holuet.

That is absolute, worldly, auaritious, ambiti ous dominion,Remon­strance. not all moderate gouernment and authoritie whatsoeuer.Remon­strance.

The 9. Allegation.

Equall power is giuen to all Ministers, sauing for order.Demonstrat. Confe Hel. c. 18.

Order includeth superioritie, and excludeth not dignitie.Remonstr.

Nullus dominium in episcopos vsurpauit.

The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

Christ 20.Demonstra­tion. Matth. 25. v. forbiddeth ambition, and not dominion, as Musculus doth expound.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

Caluine and others, expounde it against superioritie: but admitte that do­minion is ambition, because it causeth a man to aspire aboue his fellowe Mi­nisters.

There is no witte in this misshapen answere:Remon­strance with reply. the obiection doth not permit so much vnto you: dominion in the better part taken for rule, is most contrarying to ambition. It must be vniust dominion that causeth ambition, as to conspire against his supe­rior, and to aspire to an higher place, or seate: your factious study may be called ambition.

The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

The Greeke worde signifieth rule with oppression, Demonstra­tion. which is forbidden.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

That is not so. Luke 22.25. v. vseth the single verbe to rule: the sonnes of Zebedee desired not to oppresse, but to rule.

It is certaine,Remon­strance with reply. one place must expounde the other: the tenor of the text expoundeth all. [...] and [...] is one and consignificant termes, which is absolutely, tyrannously, or ambitiously to gouerne and rule, or violently to rule and ouer­rule: or else an absurd interpretation will follow of the word, 19. Act. 16. v. 19. Act. 16. v. The man in whome the ill spirite was, ranne vpon the vagabond Iewes, and ouercame them and preuailed. [...] had violent dominion and maisterie ouer them: or 1. Pet. 5.3. v. not as exercising a proude dominion ouer the Lordes heritage. If the worde signifie not so, S. Peter should fore­warne them of that which yourselues say is no fault: therefore it is as cleare as noone day, the children of Zebedee, and the Apo­stles were schooled for that same [...] contentious, and ambi­tious desire of ruling, and that ciuilly and absolutely.

The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

Christ saith not, No man shall be so: but he that will be so, desiring it.

Answere of the Demonstrator.Demonstra.

Luke saith, Let the greatest be your seruant, ergo, that is a shift.

Though our Sauiour say,Remon­strance with reply. Vos autem non sic, and in Luke, Let him be your seruant: the one doth represse the humour of ambi­tion, the other clause doth expresse Christian humilitie: Christ [Page 135]was as their seruant, [...] yet had he superiour authoritie o­uer them.

Assertion of the Demonstrator.

A Bishop should be resident in euery Congregation.Demonstra­tion.

The 1. Demonstration.

If a Bishop and a Minister be all one, then must there be a bishop in euery Congregation: but they are one, for S. Paul describeth them and their quali­ties all one, ergo,

The Antecedent I admit,Remon­strance. if they be simply and absolutely all one.

To the Assumption.

We will not denie but the wordes Episcopus, Presbyter, Mini­ster, Pastor, may notifie all one thing, or sometimes taken for all one, in describing one and the same thing improperly taken. But in their more proper acceptance, a bishop and a Presbyter must signifie distinct things, both in office and in dignitie. This is a flat aequiuocation, to say Presbyter or pastoral elder, signifieth princi­pally an inferiour minister, ergo, it must notifie as properly and principally a bishop, and a minister. As for your wittie reason, the bishop and minister haue one qualitie, ergo, are one thing, al­though I might answere you, some of those qualities are not of pure necessitie affixed to the bishop or minister, as to be the hus­band of one wife: yet your answere shall be, all these are not for­mall accidents, and doe not properly distinguish. As for the qua­lities of yemind, they make not special difference of offices in the Church. It followeth not, because they were a while in the foun­dation of the Church all one, that therefore they doe stil in all re­spectes continue all one, being changed euen in the Apostles times. But thus we retort:

If Presbyter and Episcopus be all one, then he that is not episco­pus cannot be termed Presbyter: idem numero sunt maximè idem, & conuertuntur: but your Lay elders are not episcopi, ergo, they are not Presbyteri, no Elders at all, nor so to be termed.

The 2. Demonstration.

S. Paules Bishops and Deacons were appointed for one place:Demon­stration. S. Paules Deacons were in euery Congregation, Philip. 1. Act. 6.2. and continued longer then the Bishops, Athan. 2. Apolog. Hierom. cont. Lucifer. ergo, there ought to be a Bishop in euery Congregation.

Vnlesse you meane place to be a Congregation in the Maior, there are 4. termini in the whole Syllogisme.Remon­strance.

To the partes.

S. Paules Bishops and Deacons, &c.

This is a false copulatiue, and maketh a fallacie of things that are separated true, not conioined true, by fallacious composition. The multiplicitie of the meaning breedeth aequiuocation as be­fore: viz. a bishop which is an ouerseer of the flocke, whome we call Presbyter, or Pastor, or Priest: and the Deacons are for one Congregation: And a bishop who is aboue a Pastor or Priest, must be but ouer one Congregation: the former is true, the later is false. Episcopus is a worde, [...] of many significations. S. Paules bishop is in both significations.

To the Minor.

The Apostles did the office of Deacons for a time.

That they continued longer then Paules bishops, it is false, sith the equitie of the offices continueth still: whether you take them for inferior ministers, or distributers to the poore, they haue neuer discontinued.

Vnto the place of Athanasius and Hierom, which you do not cite, but aime to euery way and no way, I haue nothing to say but this: Athanasius in the 2. Apolog. defuga sua, hath written nothing to countenance your assertion: you doe the better to quote nothing. And for Hierome, there he doth proue, that Dea­cons and Priestes in that Church did baptize, being authorized from the bishops, who gaue an imposition of handes, or confir­mation after they had baptized.

The 3. Demonstration.

That which Paul commanded Titus, Demonstra­tion. is to be practised in like case: But he commanded him to ordeine Elders, which is Bishops, Tit. 1.5. ergo, they must be in euery place.

This is strange to refort to this place of Titus, which maketh for superioritie,Remon­strance. and against equalitie of ministers.

To the Minor.

Elders: all pastorall Elders, are in generalitie of signification bishops, that is, ouerseers: all bishops are not inferiour pastorall Elders. The answere is before: the worde Episcopus and Presbyter are [...] of many significations.

The 4. Allegation or Demonstration.

Euery Church should haue her communion table and bishop.Demonstr. Ignat. ad Phi­lodelph. epist.

None better then Ignatius distinguisheth the orders.

His meaning is of an ouerseeing Pastor,Remon­strance. or where it is expedi­ent to haue a chiefe bishop. This allegation is answered, cap. 13.

The 5. Allegation or Demonstration.

Where any was found woorthy to be a Bishop, there they appointed a Bi­shop:Demonstra­tion. where there was not to furnish a bishop and an elder, hee meaneth the Doctor, there the Apostles made the bishop, and left the Elder.

How iniurious is the Demonstrator to Epiphanius, Remon­strance. who dispu­teth against Aerius heresie? Erat sermo Aerij furiosus magis quàm humanae conditionis: quid est episcopus ad Presbyterum? vnus or do, v­nus honor, vna dignitas. It was Aerius reasonlesse or furious, rather then reasonable maner of speach. What is a bishop better then a pastorall elder or priest? there is but one order of both, like ho­nor, both one dignitie. With what face can he produce Epiphani­us for equalitie? who saith a bishop cannot rebuke an elder, but because he hath authoritie ouer him?

Now for Epiphanius, his words are otherwise, and the Demon­strator either obliuious, or neuer read Epiphanius. Cum autē mul­titudo non esset non inuenti sunt inter eos qui presbyteri constitueren­tur, had not the supplie of many priests or pastorall elders. They were contented onely with a bishop, vntil they might haue com­plete number of such elders, ouer whom the bishop caried his su­perior hand of authoritie. Finally, Epiphanius did not so much as dreame of this elder to be there an ordinarie Doctor, sith Presby­ter with him is but an inferior Pastor.

What Chamaeleon with changeable colours is our Demonstra­tor? An elder in this new Tetrarchie sometimes is a parish bishop, elsewhere an Alderman gouerning his ward, other times a graue and profound Doctor: all which to sweare with them, Epiphani­us must be forced.

The 6. Allegation or Demonstration.Demonstr. 2. Conc. Carth. 1. Tom. ca. 10.

If a bishop run into slander, and many bishops cannot suddenly bee gathe­red, the cause must be heard of 12. bishops.

You may bee ashamed to alleage that Councill to confirme your parish bishops,Remon­strance. which distinctly setteth downe the authori­tie of Metropolitane & dicecesan bishops, as also of Presbyter and [Page 138]bishop in the same canon.

The 7.Demonstr. 3. Conc. Carth. Allegation or Demonstration.

If an elder be accused, he may call 6. bishops from the place hard by.

These are fractions and not distinct demonstrations.Remon­strance.

Your allegation hath an answer before. The paucitie or few­nesse of our BB. doth not make against the multitude of theirs, & therefore this demonstration serueth you to no vse.

The 8.Demonstr. Euseb. li. 5. ca. 16 Socrates 4.26. Quest. 16. dist. 50. Theod. li. 5. c. 4. Allegation or Demonstration.

Stories make mention of one Sotichus bishop of village of Cuman.

Of one Mares of Solicha.

Gregorie of Nazianzum a small Citie.

Bishop of a castle.

The towne or place of their See might be litle, their iurisdicti­on great:Remon­strance. I know not whether it be your or your Printers fault: Theodoret remembreth one Mares of Dolicha: as for the bishop of Solicha and the bishoprike of that, God send all the packe of you no better bishoprikes. Dorchester was once the bishops See of Lincolne, Shirburne of Sarum, Selsey of Cicester, Thetford of Nor­wich, Cridie of Excester, &c. yet the iurisdictions and dicecesses as large as now, and some of them much larger.

The 9. Allegation.

A minister,Demonstr. Hier. ad Euagr. super Titum ad Oceanum. that is to say a bishop.

A minister and a bishop all one to Titus.

With the ancient fathers, bishops and ministers all one.

I must remember you what is said also in the same place,Remon­strance. Pres­byter & episcopus aliud aetatis, aliud dignitatis: Non dico de presbyte­ris, non de inferiori gradu: ad episcopos venio. Priest, a name of age: Bishop, of dignitie and office: Priest, an inferiour degree: other where priests supplie the Apostles place, the bishop supplieth Christes place. Be your owne remembrancer in the epistle to O­ceanus: the drift of Hierome is to shew a difference & oddes be­tweene Deacon and Priest, because of certaine who made the Deacon equall to the Priest, and yet for all that alway the pre­heminence of the bishop before the Priest. Nam Alexandriae à Marco Euangelista, vsque ad Heracliam & Dionysium episcopos presbyteri semper vnum ex se electum in superiori gradu collocatum, episcopum nominabant. Euen from Marke the Euangelist down­ward [Page 139]to his time, the bishop of Alexandria had a superior degree aboue the pastorall elders.

The 10. Allegation or Demonstration.Demonstr. D. Barns Acts & Monum. fol. 216. in ye 6. art.

I will neuer beleeue one can be bishop ouer two or three cities, or a whole countrey by the law of God.

I know not whether he saith so or no: but if he haue read and remembred that Titus was bishop of Candie, Ignatius of Syria, Remon­strance. with infinite moe out of the Fathers and Councils, he would bee of another beliefe. Many things slipped such men vpon hatred to popish bishops.

The 11. Allegation or Demonstration.Demonstr. Hooper super 8. comm. pa. 90.

The office of a bishop is degenerate: In the primitiue Church they had no bishops as we haue.

He speaketh of bishops vnder the Popedome,Remon­strance. or els the speach might very well be spared: his words are, If the fourth part re­maine to the bishop, a third part to the teachers, two parts to the poore, one part to the souldiours, it were better bestowed, &c. then it is bestowed now. None of our bishops haue a fourth part vpon the diuision of all the ecclesiasticall reuenues of his dioeces, and therefore no cause herein to assigne a fault in the diuision. But if there might be (as bishop Hooper thought) a more equall diuision, what is this to prooue a bishops authoritie in euery Pa­stor of a parish?

The eleuenth Chapter.

Assertion of the Demonstrator.

THere must be Doctors in the Church,Demonstra­tion. which is an office different from a Pastor.

The 1. Demonstration.

That which the Apostles doe distinguish, are distinct: but the Apostles distinguish Doctours from Pastours, 12. Rom. 7. Eph. 4.11. v. as he doeth distinguish man from wo­man, Gal. 3.28. v. Ergo,

To the Minor.

The Apostle maketh distinguishment of giftes,Remon­strance. not of offices in the first two places: albeit distinct giftes and offices, yet coin­cident in one. The Apostles did exhort, they did teach, Actes 2. Peter, and Actes 7. Steuen. Paul a Doctor, and yet spake the [Page 140]word of exhortation. Of euery action or qualitie groweth not a separable office and function perpetuall in the Church.

There are certaine who must distribute,Absurditie of the De­monstrator. shew mercie, prophe­sie, gainsay, and stop the mouthes of the gainsaier: ergo, there are seuerall and set offices & officers, so many in number as are qua­lities numbred. But the Demonstrator saith, distinguished as man and woman, Gal. 3. v. 28. S. Paul maketh no distinguishment but a combination or connexion of all in Christ: he saith not there is bond, there is free, male and female, but neither male nor fe­male, &c.

The Demonstrator had this obiection for the acception of a copulatiue in that place to the Galathians, out of the Fenny wa­ter of the Country-poison, but the good soule vnderstood it not. The meaning was, that [...] the copulatiue maketh a distinction be­tweene Doctor and Pastor, Eph. 4. as it doeth Gal. 3. distinguish betweene male and female. But how like those two places are the one to the other, to make any such shew, I would those that haue but a smacke of Greeke or of any iudgement, would con­sider.

The 2. Demonstration.

As the gifts are diuers,Demon­stration. so the offices: but the giftes of Doctor and Pastor are diuers, 1. Cor. 12. as also experience teacheth: Ergo,

To the Maior.

Diuers gifts make not diuers offices:Remon­strance. many gifts go to one fa­cultie, science, office: gift of memorie, subtiltie to penetrate be­tweene the cause and the effect: iudgement, action, eloquution to an Orator. One man may be better able to diuide his text, ano­ther to perswade, and yet an office of a preacher.

To the Minor.

Though they be sundry giftes, yet are they not sundered into seuerall offices: Apollos was [...] eloquent and yet full of forcible perswasion, Act. 18. but you could not haue a more pro­bable place against the making of the Pastor and Doctor, two se­uerall offices, then this of the 1. Cor. 12. for the same officers are here reckoned vp that are in the 4. to the Ephesians, and yet no mention here of Pastors, but onely Doctors, which argueth that vnder the word [...] Doctors, Pastors be also contained: for els were the diuision vnperfect, and the Doctor might better then [Page 141]the Pastor haue bene omitted: whome you make not so neces­sarie as Pastor.

The 3. Demonstration.

They who are to take a diuerse course, are diuerse. The Pastor is to exhort,Demonstra­tion. the Doctor to attend doctrine. ergo:

To the Maior.

The Logician in his method goeth vp ab vltimo ad primum: Remon­strance. o­ther times commeth downe à primo ad vltimum, in the same pre­dicament, ergo, by your demonstration a Logician is simply di­uerse from him selfe.

The Galenist distributeth the whole into parts:Absurdity of the Demon­strator. at other times collecteth the partes to make the whole: ergo, a Galenist or a phy­sition absolutely differeth from himselfe. Or,

This man is to runne vp the hill, the other to run downe: Er­go, this man differeth from the other as a man.

To the Maior.

Paul biddeth Timothie attend to reading and doctrine. 1. Tim. 4. Ergo, by the Demonstrator he forbiddeth him to vse exhortati­on in the course of preaching: beyng the very worde which hee putteth betwixt reading and doctrine: so that he both exhorted and taught. Nay how can a man exhort to a thing without do­ctrine precedent? Can a man feede and teach not? or teach and feede not? Is not doctrine the foode of the soule? The one affe­cteth the intellectuall minde, the other, the will. Besides, where doeth he finde in Scripture, that he must be called Pastor that ex­horteth, and hee Doctor that teacheth, and that one man may not take both courses? I tell you we allowe not the absurde Ser­mon vpon the 12. Rom. for Scripture.

The 4. Demonstration.

Ecclesiastical stories speaking of the church of Alexandria, Demonstra­tion. that there were Doctors and Bishops, make the vsuall difference.

The difference is of Catechists, as Origene, Remon­strance. and after him Hera­clius at Alexandria: Cyrill at Hierusalem: Deo gratias at Carthage from Bishops. But what letted them from exhortation or appli­cation of doctrine? And Catechists that doe but teach rudiments, are farre from the perfection and soundnesse of learning, of him that shall deserue the office of a Doctor.

The 5. Demonstration.

Cathedrall Churches haue one to reade a Lecture:Demonstra­tion. Ergo, a manifest se­paration of Doctor from Pastor.

The Lecturer neither is nor ought to be barred from the life of exhortation,Remon­strance. no more then your owne pastors are barred from deliuering doctine. But they are not two full hereof, and make necessitie not so much a vertue, as the seueraltie of office a vaine pretence.

The 6. Demonstration.

If the distinguishing of them make more for the building of the Churche,Demonstra­tion. then the vniting of them, then ought they to be distinguished. First is true: Ergo, the second.

The antecedent standeth vpon a false supposall:Remon­strance. for to vse a Doctorship or explication without the liuely application, is to make a bodie not organized with a soule: Corpus inane animae, such cold speculation is best for such colde prophets or Doctors of Vtopia. The consequence is also false: for it would make more for the building of the Church, to haue a seuerall expounder of euery seuerall booke of the Bible, if such might be had: and yet you may not make vp so many distinct Church officers, as there be bookes in the Bible.

To the Assumption.

It is lesse credite for a man to deliuer the writing, and not the seale: he that deliuereth the word of the doctrine, may be vouch­safed to deliuer the Sacrament and seale of the same: And he that propoundeth the veritie of a doctrine, may with perswasion vrge the efficacie and vse of the same, both exhort and comfort: it is the sole and sound way of edification of Gods people. The anci­ent fathers are of opinion that they signifie not diuers offices, but diuers acts of one man, and are therefore ioyned with the copu­latiue, Ephe. 4. It is but a new deuise among your selues to require them as a necessarie office in euery Church to countenance out Trauers, Fenner, and such like Doctors, who neuerthelesse stood more vpon exhortation & dehortation then vpon doctrine. The first admonition nor second, the French discipline, the Gernsey, the Scottish require them not necessarily, neither are they of the Consistorie or Eldership in Fraunce. Beza at Geneua is both Pa­stor and Doctor.

The twelfth Chapter.

The Assertion.

THere ought to be Elders in euery congregation.

The 1. Demonstration.Demonstra­tion.

That which the Apostles established, ought to conti­nue in euery congregation: The Apostles established el­ders Act. 14.23. not preaching elders, because of scarci­tie: Paul sent Titus and Timothie to great cities: Ergo, gouerning Elders.

To the Minor.

Because the Maior is so often answered,Remon­strance. I answere to the Mi­nor, that [...] in this place must signifie preaching Elders, not vnpreaching prelates or gouernours, which their owne reason perswadeth vnto: for if there were scarcitie of do­ctrine, scarcitie of discipline was greater farre: If seedes of do­ctrine did not plenteously grow, to what ende serued the hedge or wall of discipline? It is preposterous in course: holie maners before holie faith: before a conuersion a religious and sanctified conuersation: many elders before many teachers of the worde. This is violence offered to the Text by the Demonstrator: who euer before these men interpreted that place of vnpreaching lay Elders? Nay himselfe and all the rest vse it as the onelie chiefe place to proue ministers elections by the people.

The 2. Demonstration.

The helpers in the buylding must be in euery congregation:Demonstra. But Christ hath ordeyned helpers. 1. Cor. 12.28. Ergo, Elders.

To the Minor.

Whether ye meane 1. Cor. 12. [...] or [...] helpers,Remon­strance. or go­nernours, it is too generall to restrayne to vnpreaching Elders. Those wordes may concerne all ordinarie and extraordinarie Christian Magistrates and ministers, and nothing helpeth to in­troduce elders. There is neuer an office mentioned in Scripture, but your elders will haue a snatch at it rather then sit out, as they are like from any patrocinie thence.

The 3. Demonstration.

That which wanting, the body cānot be entire, must be in euery cōgregation:Demonstra. [Page 144]But the Elders cannot be wanting, and the Church entire. Rom. 12. Ergo:

I will syllogize after this manner:Remon­strance.

That which superaboundeth, the body may lacke: The Elders are ex superabundanti: Ergo, they may lacke.

To the Minor.

Either Bishops, or Deacons, or the wordes [...] gouernors or Presbyters import the Elders: Not [...] for all such may minister the worde and sacraments, and also preach: Not Presby­teri, such are feeding and pastorall elders: nor the Deacons, for they are vnderneath and inferiour vnto them: nor Bishops, for they are Presidents and ouerseers ouer all, and are superiour pa­stors: Ergo, the elders are a superfluitie, and an excremencie to be pared and cut away, and are ex superabundanti to the Church & may very well be wanting. As for the place Rom. 12. [...] He that gouerneth in diligence, concerneth al gouernors Ecclesiasticall and ciuill.

The 4. Demonstration.

If the worde hath described the Elders,Demon­stration. then they must bee: But the worde hath described. 1. Tim. 5.17. Ergo:

There is not so much as [...], any colourable description of Elders in these wordes:Remon­strance. The place giueth commendation and great maintenance to all pastoral elders, that gouerne their flocks wel, but honourable commendation of those, who with earnest­nes labour in the worde. So, [...] signifieth: your elders haue not any maintenance of your Churches, but liue of their craftes and trades: and therefore yours cannot be there meant, which is spo­ken specially to establish large maintenaunce by the Church to­ward the Elders there vnderstood.

The 5. Demonstration or Allegation.

There is no Church which can stand without their Eldershippe or Coun­cell.Demon­stration. Ign. ad Tral. ep.

The wordes are:Remon­strance. [...]

That is, the Elders, or Ministers, or Pastorall elders are a senate or fellowship of the Apostles of Christ: without it there is no Con­gregation holie or sacred, nor synode of Saintes: and so say wee. But this is a great distaunce from your Laicall Eldership: this is our holie and sacred Conuocation or Chapter-house, or [Page 145]whatsoeuer Ecclesiasticall assemblie and meeting. It appeareth by sundry places of Ignatius, that the Presbyteri hee speaketh of, did preach and minister the Sacraments: Ergo, he meaneth not of yours. These whom he meaneth (he saith) are successors of the A­postles, which hitherto I haue not heard any of you challenge for your Elders that be Lay men.

The 6. Allegation or Demonstration.Demonstra­tion. Tertul. de bape.

It belongeth onely to the Bishop to baptise, and to the Elder and Deacon vpon the Bishops license.

I would to God you would as well doe after this golden sen­tence of Tertull. as you can memoratiuely recite the same:Remon­strance. the sence and sentence maketh all for vs. Dandi habet ius summus sa­cerdos, id est, Episcopus, dehinc presbyteri & diaconi, non tamen sine Episcopi authoritate propter eeclesiae honorem, quo saluo salua pax est: As the Bishop is a superior minister or priest, so Presbyter an in­feriour minister or priest: for your elders you may go seeke, for you permit neither your elder nor deacon to baptize.

The 7. Allegation or Demonstration.Demonstra. Ierō. con. Lucife.

Neither elder nor Deacon haue right, but vpon commaundement of the Bishop, so much as to baptize.

The words: Inde venit vt sine Chrismate & Episcopi iussione ne­que presbyter, neque diaconus ius habeant baptizandi. That is,Remon­strance. pasto­rall elder or priest: the wordes immediatly antecedent speake of the authoritie of the Bishop or chiefe priest, who doeth autho­rize other priests: vt enim accepit quis, ita & dare potest. He spea­keth of Chrisme aswell as of the Bishops licence, alluding to a particular custome: this cannot serue your turnes, for you holde that no Bishop may debarre you of licence to preach or vse your ministery, & your elders and deacons may not minister the sacra­ments, though they were licenced, as your selues thinke.

The 8. Allegation or Demonstration.

Elders fell away vpon the ambition of the Teachers.Demonstra. Amb. 1. Tim. 5.

Ambrose saith, Synagoga & postea ecclesia seniores habuit. Remon­strance. Ambrose saith that state of the church for all that was tollerable. Both the Synagogue and afterward the Church had Elders or Seniors before any Christian magistrate had the preeminence in the Church, but no such elders as you doe platforme. For these gaue but counsell, yours do absolutely gouerne, ordeine, censure, and all things, sauing preaching and ministring Sacraments.

The 9. Allegation or Demonstration.Demonstra. Possidon. in vita August.

Valerius the Bishop did contrary to the Apostolicall custome, in appoyn­ting Augustine to preach being an elder.

The wordes are:Remon­strance. contravsum & consuetudinem ecclesiarum A­phricanarum, against the vse and custome of the Aphrican chur­ches, not of the Orientall Churches, where the vse was so: A cu­stome particular misliked also by many of the fathers, you would make Apostolicall and generall.

The 10. Allegation or Demonstration.

After Arrius was conuict of heresie,Demonstrat. Socr. li. 5. ca. 22. Elders might not preach: it was so de­creed.

Caluins quotation is lib. 9. Socrat. tripartitae historiae, Remon­strance. Alexandriae tantùm institutum fuit: whence you borrow this: onely at A­lexandria this was ordeyned, because Arrius had troubled the Church there. Is not this curtalling of places an euident signe of the euill conscience you haue, if you knowe it: or of ig­norance (ioyned with boldnesse) if you know it not, and yet al­ledge it?

The 11. Allegation or Demonstration.Demonstrat. Bucer de reg. Chri. lib. 1.

The number of Elders of euery Church must bee increased according to the multitude of the people.

Bucer by the words lib. 1. cap. 8. speaketh of Curatorum ecclesiae & seniorum, Remon­strance. that is pastoral elders, as the marginall note vnder­standeth the Ministers: Ministros ecclesiae sarcire oportere quic­quid fuerit neglectum.

The 12. Allegation or Demonstration.

Martyr 12. Rom. lamenteth that they were fallen out of the Church,Demonstra­tion. that the name scant remaineth.

Martyr citeth S. Ambrose complaint of the want or defect of certaine Elders for aduise,Remon­strance. who were for a time in some Church, the Magistrate being vnchristian: but you finde not that they were called Presbyteri, as signifying an office, which title you giue to yours, and the places where Presbyteri be named, you ap­ply to them.

The 13. Allegation or Demonstration.

Certaine of the people were ioyned with the Pastor in Church-gouern­ment.Demonstra­tion. Idem 12. Co. 1.

Euen so at this day:Remonstran. in euery parish are the like assistants, to gather and imploy the almes of the Church and for other proui­sions: [Page 147]The Puritanes know not their owne Church, or common wealth, and yet the meaning is but of Churches in great cities and Cathedrall.

The 14. Allegation or Demonstration.Demostran. Caluin. instit. li. 4. cap. 3. sect. 8.

There were Elders in the Church.

[...] He said it, is no necessary Demonstration to proue it:Remon­strance. he can neuer proue that they had iurisdiction, or ought to haue of censures, of ordinations, of lawe making, and all other go­uernment: or that they were Lay men, and had no maintenance by the Church, or that they were annuall or biennall officers, as the Consistorials doe now preach.

The 15. Allegation or Demonstration.

D. Whitgift pag. 638. confesseth there were Elders.Demonstr.

Some were Seniors as Ambrose speaketh of in the Church be­fore any Christian magistrate was pro tempore, Remon­strance. for a stay & good aduise in the Church: but none of this medley of perpetuity, and with such gouernment and authority as is now platted.

The 16 Allegation or Demonstration.

If the platforme to Timothie be for al Churches,Demon­stration. then must Elders be in al. 1. Timoth. 6.14. But the first is true: Ergo, the second.

This is answered before cap. 1. not to concerne any pollicie of Elders:Remon­strance. but to keepe the general commandement of the lawe of the spirite of life: they might as well say that the commaunde­ment to drinke no water were meant by that place. The holie ghost hath there warily vsed the singuler number [...] which nowe you woulde make to pertaine to the perpetuitie of euerie thing conteined in that Epistle: if it did so, yet could it not helpe you, for there is no such commandement for anie such Elders in that whole Epistle, no nor anie mention by the way of them.

The 17. Demonstration.

That which is in euery ministers commission, must be in euery congrega­tion:Demonstra­tion. But the ordination and practise of this office, Mat. 28.20. is so, or els they ordeined elders without warrant from Christ. Ergo they must be in euery congregation.

Ex nihilo nihil fit, Of nothing commeth nothing.Remon­strance. This is [...] a great space betwene these two: go, [...] make Dis­ciples or teache all nations: Ergo, make vnpreaching Presby­ters in all nations: This the Demonstrationer made the Mi­nisters Commission afore, and is it nowe the Commission [Page 148]for vnteaching Elders to be ordained in euery place? The reason of the Minor is false: for neyther made they any such Elders in euery congregation, neither doeth their authoritie for ordinati­ons and sundry other points of Church-gourernment depend on­ly vpon that Commission, which respected the ministery of the word and Sacraments.

The 18. Demonstration.

Where a Bishop must be,Demonstra­tion. Elders must be: A Bishop must be in euery Con­gregation: Ergo, Elders.

This Demonstration is no guest but an ordinarie seruant:Remon­strance. for this serueth your turne often: [...] The one of these is no better knowne then the other: there must be parish Bishops: Ergo, parish elders. And it followeth not by any cohe­rence any more then this: There must bee a Constable in euery towne, Ergo, 24. Aldermen.

The 19. Demonstration.

If the Apostles established one vniforme order in al Churches,Demonstra­tion. then there must be Elders in euery congregation: but the first is true: Ergo, the second. For S. Paul saith thus: I teach in all Congregations.

To the Antecedent.

This is the fallacie of consequence.Remon­strance.

The Apostles did stablish vniformitie for essentiall points of discipline, but left not any policy for Lay elders. The consecution of the maior is false: Can there be none vniformity, except such your Elders were euery where appoynted, who indeede were nowhere?

To the Assumption.

S. Paul might very well leaue all pointes of wholesome do­ctrine, all good order for the Church, but neuer institute the par­ticularities of your discipline.

The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

God hath giuen soueraigne authoritie ouer the Church to Christian Magistrates,Demonstra­tion. which these Elders would abridge.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

No more then the eldership in Dauids time, did abridge Dauids soueraignty ouer all Israel: for his gouernment is temporall, theirs is spirituall.

O foolish answere,Remon­strance. and fond conceite of an imaginable Elder­dership in Dauids time? who can abide this? Master Elders haue spirituall gouernment, but Kings and Queenes (noursing [Page 149]fathers and mothers of the Church) haue but ciuill and tempo­rall gouernement onely: ô tempora, ô mores: or as the learned discourse saith, The prince is but a feeling member of ye church: the heads and chiefe gouernors are the ecclesiasticall Aldermen or presbyterie of the Church. That yours abridge the Queenes soueraigntie, is a little touched afore, and shall more plainlie be shewed when you are at leasure to heare.

The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator.Demonstra­tion.

Gualt. 1. Cor. 5. denieth the presbyterie to be needfull vnder a christian magistrate.

Answer of the Demonstrator.

Gualter denieth excommunication to be lawfull vnder a Christian magi­strate: He is as partiall as D. Whitgift.

It may be Gualter and others may denie it to be of the essence of a Church, or rash excommunication,Remon­strance with reply. (then the which nothing is more Anabaptisticall) or where hope of repentance is: he is not partiall, nor he that taketh part in a good cause. As for Gualters opinion, if hee vtterly denie excommunication:Pro Coelio. Nolo cuiusquam fortis, & illustris viri, vel minimum erratum cum maxima laude con­iungere: But it is vntrue to say, he simplie denieth it: or if hee did erre herein, doth he therefore erre in the other? But if you can so soone shake off Gualter in this point, for his errout (as you fansie) in the other, then may we also reiect Caluin in a matter whereof he was first father, for his error against the lawfull supremacie of Christian princes in causes ecclesiasticall.

The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator.Demonstra­tion.

The Prince hath the authoritie which the Elders had.

Answer.

That is no truer then to say, the Prince hath authoritie to preach, which he must see done.

The Eldership (you say) may make ecclesiasticall lawes,Remon­strance with replie. may censure and excommunicate. In taking these from the Prince to be done by her Delegates, doe you not denie her Supremacie? as for any ordaining, shee may euen as well as your Eldership doe it: but God forbid shee should claime it, as they very ab­surdly doe.

HIErgo, by this grosse position the prince must waite in euery place to see the elderships their dueties done: but it is certaine, Ex quolibet sequitur quidlibet, in maintaining this imagination, [Page 150]as for the Prince to see it done by your Elderships, is a seruilitie and no soueraigntie, especially when you say, and T.C. before you, that the princes must subiect them selues, and submit their scepters, and throwe downe their crownes before the Church: and for the Church you roundly interprete the Presbyterie.Absurditie of the Demon­strator. Prin­ces must lieprostrate to the Presbyterie. And if your Elderships in deede haue this authoritie by their right in causes ecclesiasticall, which the Prince must but see done, then doe not they slaunder you which say you giue to the Prince potestatem facti non iuris, and so yeelde her iust as large a supremacie as the Papistes doe.

Demonstrations to proue the eldershippe ne­cessarie vnder Christian princes, as in the Apostles time.

The 1. Demonstration.

The lesse able the ministers are to direct in godlines,Demonstra­tion. the more neede they haue of Elders: but ministers nowe vnder Christian magistrates are lesse able by reason of ease and peace. Ergo.

To the Maior.

Nay the more neede they haue of preachers and labourers in the haruest,Remon­strance. the more neede of discreete ouerseers, not those prag­maticall busie-body elders.

To the Minor.

Doe not say that Salomon forbiddeth you say: the dayes are worser nowe rather then the dayes of olde, for that were a foo­lish thing: Our dayes are blessed dayes, blesse God for them: This fallacie is secundùm non causam vt causam. The Iudges and Iusti­ces are lesse able to execute the lawes at full by reason of mens insolencie and custome of offences:Absurditie of the De­monstrator. Ergo, shall it followe that the Parliament must erect some other new kinde of magistracie? The consequencie is, Ergo they must execute the lawes with more seueritie. If the ministers be not able to direct in godlines, it is but a poore helpe they are like to haue of your Elders for such direction.

The 2. Demonstration.

If Christian magistrates must maintaine the order set downe by 1. Cor. 12.8.Demonstra­tion. v. then Elders must bee vnder a Christian magistrate: but they are &c. Ergo: 49. Esai 23.

You haue bene answered and reanswered againe for that al­legation of text 1. Cor. 12.8. v. Remon­strance. that you haue no aduantage for your elders to bee deduced from that text: but see see howe the elder would obteine the title of a Christian magistrate.

As for the argument out of Esai 49. ca. 23. v. Kings & Queenes they shall worship thee with their faces towards the earth,Absurditie of the Demon­strat. Ergo great homage belike shalbe done to the eldership, the rather be­cause it shrowdeth it selfe vnder the appellation of a Christian magistrate.

The 3. Demonstration.

If the rule of Christ Dic Ecclesiae cannot be obserued without elders,Demon­stration. then may they bee vnder a Christian magistrate: but the former is true Ergo the latter.

To the Assumption.

By the Church is meant the Senate of ministers and elders,Remon­strance. saith the Demonstrator. This is newe interpretation of dic Eccle­siae, this were newes in Christendome: a man cannot informe the Church of a matter, vnlesse he go to the Aldermen and ministers of euery particular Church.

Dic Ecclesiae with Chrisostome, Chrisostome 61. Hom. super Matth. is tell the presidents and gouer­nours and prelates of the Church: Praesulibus scilicet & praesidenti­bus. If none haue neede to tell the elders, then the rule of dic Ec­clesiae, tell the Church, may bee kept without them: but no man hauing ordinarie and ecclesiasticall lawfull magistrates neede to runne to the laicall elders: Ergo (for ought that I knowe) the rule may be kept without them.

The 4. Demonstration.

If the whole gouernment of the Church be described to Titus and Timothie to be obserued to the end, then there must be elders vnder a Christian magi­strate:Demon­stration. but the first is true, Ergo the second. 1. Tim. 6.14. v.

To the Antecedent.

I denie the sequell of the Antecedent:Remon­strance. for all the descriptions there, yet there are no elders. If you meane the whole and sole gouernment of the Church to bee described, I denie the whole Antecedent: for the deaconship of women is but a temporarie, and no perpetual thing, which is there described: so you are once againe to seeke for your elders.

To the Assumption.

The ecclesiasticall gouernment is described, not in specie, but in genere, and so it is prescribed.

The 5. Demonstration.Demon­stration.

Where sinne is most outragious, there is need of all helpers to punish sinne &c. so it is vnder a Christian magistrate: Ergo, need of Elders.

There needeth no new magistracie nor ministerie in ye church,Remon­strance. but the ciuill and ecclesiasticall helpe that alreadie is.

This is but a base and accidentall originall and birth of elders, Ex malis moribus nascuntur bonae leges.

Because there are inordinate men, we must of pure needs haue these ignoble elders to correct them.

The thirteenth Chapter.

Assertion.

THere must be Deacons who must only receiue and distri­bute the liberalitie of the Saints,Demonstra­tion. & not intermeddle with the ministerie.

The 1. Demonstration.

That wherein Stephen and the rest were employed, is the office of a Deacon, but they were only for the poore, Acts 6.4. Ergo, the office of a Deacon is only for ye poore.

To the Minor.

The Deacons serued occasionally by reason of ye same [...],Remon­strance. murmuring for reliefe of the poore, but principally they serued for attendance and ease of the ministerie, and distribution to the poore. Not onely therefore for the poore: They were mensarum & viduarum ministri, saith S. Hierom, at which feasts it is knowen the communion was celebrated.

The 2. Demonstration.

That office which the Apostle maketh distinct,Demonstra­tion. may not be mingled.

But Rom. 12. distributing in simplicitie is so: Ergo,

The Maior lacketh a word, perpetually distinct.

The Minor is false:Remon­strance. the reason holdeth not frō distinct vertues to offices. Let my reason bend against you: Either all those, or some of those, or none of those, are distinct: If all, why cause you not seuerall offices out of all? None you will not say, That were to gainsay you selues: If some are, and some are not, shew [Page 153]by some demonstration, and not by allegation, which are and which are not: Why to distribute is perpetuall and distinct, why to shewe mercie is not perpetuall, why a distributer is better then a shewer of mercie: may no man that distributeth vse simplicitie, lest he incroch vpon the Deacons office?

The 3. Demonstration.

That which the Apostles found themselues insufficient for,Demonstra­tion. that no man can nowe discharge: but they were insufficient for the Ministerie of the word and ministration to the poore. Act. 6.2. ergo,

The Maior is false.Remon­strance. The Apostles hauing the generall care to plant Churches in all the worlde, might be vnmeete and so vnfit to serue the tables of the widowes of the Greekes and Hebrewes, after the Church so mightily increased: and yet some men now for a narrowerprecinct, be able both to preach and to doe the like: sith the seuering of those two offices in the Apostles time which is not clearely demonstrated by you, is not to make them seuerall for all succeeding times. The Elders or Ministers after the seuen were chosen, dealt with the Church stocke, Act. 11. and yet our bishops or ministers claime not this care from the Dea­cons.

To the Minor.

The worde is, [...], it is not meete: they doe not say, we are insufficient: we may deriue the care vpon others, hauing extra­ordinarie affaires to doe for the whole Church. They were able to doe it, but it was vnmeete for them to bee in [...], daily ministration. It is vnmeete for a king to be a common soul­dier, and yet he not insufficient to beare armes. The argument doth holde: he is insufficient, ergo, vnmeete: è contrario, the con­uersion is not good.

The 4. Demonstration.

If the Ministeries of the worde be perfect without the Deacon,Demonstra­tion. then he may not intermeddle in preaching of the worde, where there is no neede of him: but it is so, Ephes. 4.11. v. ergo,

Out of this fabulous conditional proposition. If, &c. it follow­eth,Remon­strance. there are diuersities of ministeries of the worde, and all out of that place. But I answere the Assumption.

No man is so rude to deny that to be a description of the mi­nisteries of the worde, no man so bolde to say that to be the one­ly [Page 154]description of the Ministeries of the word: for 1. Cor. cap. 12. hath a perfecter description. If the number of 8. octonarius be per­fecter, then the number of 5. numerus par, then numerus impar: But your number is 4. quaternarius: you are like the olde Thra­cians, of whome Aristotle writeth, they cannot number beyond 4. they are so grosse: euen as your Tetrarchie extendeth not be­yond 4. But if this were a good reason to debarre a Deacon from preaching, howe doth that followe hereof, which he is in hande to proue: viz. that he must onely receaue and distribute to the poore, or that he must doe it at all?

The 5. Demonstration.

If no qualitie be required in description of the Deacon,Demonstrat. which is proper to the Ministerie of the worde, then he is not to meddle with the same: but none 1. Tim. 3.8. is required, ergo,

This Hypotheticall Syllogisme is false to beginne withall.Remon­strance. You cannot reasonably argue à destructione antecedentis ad destructio­nem consequentis, or a positione consequentis ad positionem antece­dentis, vnlesse you will commit the fallacie of the consequent: as if no qualitie be required in the man, which is proper to the mai­ster, then may not he be another maisters man: but no qualitie is required, ergo, he must still be a maisterlesse man.

To the Assumption.

Some qualities are cōmunicable to the minister and to the dea­con. This destroyeth your assumption.

Connenit omni sednon soli, semper, & reciprocè.

A deacon must be the husband of one wife, so must a minister. A deacon must gouerne his house well, so must a minister. A dea­con must not be giuen to much wine: but sober, temperate. A deacon must be without blame, and so must a minister and a Bi­shop. A minister may preach the worde, the deacon vpon leaue. A minister must be able to teach faith: the deacon haue the mi­nisterie of faith in a pure conscience, and yet haue great boldnesse and libertie in the faith of Christ, as Stephen who preached. Mi­nisterie is perfite and complete: the deaconship a good degree vnto the ministerie: [...] attained to a good de­gree, to be credited afterward with the full ministerie. But thus we retort it vpon your selues.

If no qualitie be required in a deacon,Retortion. by that place of S. Paule [Page 155]1. Tim. 3. which is proper to one who is to receiue and distribute to the poore, then is hee not to intermeddle therewith: But no such, 1. Tim. 3. is required: Ergo a deacon (by your owne rule) is not to intermedle in distributing to the poore.

For proofe of the Minor, peruse them, & you shal finde no qua­litie required there in a deacon tending that way. In that he must not be [...], giuen to filthy lucre or couetous, maketh not any thing for this purpose: for this sinne is forbidden to euery Chri­stian, as the roote of all euill, and to the Bishop in that selfe same chapter: Yet you wil not therefore gather, that all Christians and Bishops, are officers onely to distribute to the poore.

The 6. Demonstration.

If the deacons may meddle with the worde and Sacraments also,Demōstrat. then it is greater then the office of the Pastor: but it is not greater then that, ergo,

To the Maior.

It is not therefore simplie greater in that respect:Remon­strance. For then this absurditie might followe, One and the same thing might be grea­ter and lesser then it selfe: as the Apostles when they exercised all themselues. It is not greater in dignitie, but in some regarde of present seruice: Howbeit no man doeth defend that the decons may as farre deale in the word and Sacraments (and in prouision for the poore also) as the pastors may.

If the delegates or high Commissioners may deale by com­mission from the Prince in matters of the Church,Absurditie of the Demon­strator. and in other capacities in ciuill matters also, then are they greater then Coun­sellers of state, or all as great as the Prince her selfe: This Maior and your Maior are cousin germanes, or very neere of blood, and both vntrue and absurd.

The 7. Allegation, or Demonstration.

Deacons are ministers of tables, and not of holy things.Demonstrat. 6. conc. Constant. cap. 16.

That is, rather of tables then of holy things: I will haue mer­cie and not sacrifice, that is, rather mercie then sacrifice: or else the wordes are to be vnderstande, Non de viris qui ministrant mi­nisterijs,Remon­strance.sed de ministerio quod in vsu mensarum adhibebatur, which is the interpretation of the Council, Concil. Neocaesariens. cap. 14. which made a rule for 7. deacons in euery citie, though little: whose office was after the poore were prouided for, to preach the Gospel as they did.

The 8. Allegation of the Demonstrator.

Deacons haue neede of wisedome,Demonstrat. Chryso. 6. Art. though they preach not: it is absurde they should doe both.

The Demonstrator cobleth Chrysostomes wordes:Remonstra. Hom. 14. art. 6. For this one in Chrysostome is two sentences. I answere it is an absurde thing they should doe both, and be tied as of necessitie to doe both: for otherwise it is euident they preached in Chrysostomes time.

The 9. Allegation or Demonstration.Demonstra. Conc. Vasens. c. 4.

In the Ministers sickenes, the Deacons should reade Homilies.

This is newes to alledge a Councell for a reading ministerie,Remonstr. and reading Homilies, yet it maketh against you: for if they may reade Homilies, then are they not onely to distribute to the poore, and then may Homilies be read in Churches.

The 10. Demonstra. Bulling. decad. 5. serm 2. Allegation or Demonstration.

Although the goods of the Church encreasing, there were Deacons, Sub­deacons, Archdeacons, yet the Deacons were not mingled with the Bishops.

Euen nowe they are kept from that mixture.Remonstr.

The 11. Allegation or Demonstration.Demonstra. Bucer. de reg. Christ. cap. 4.

The office of Deacons was kept religiously, till Antichrist draue it out.

Bucer in the same place,Remonstra. sayth: the ancient Church did admit their Deacons to the ministration of the worde, and their Sacra­ments, ergo, none of your fashion Deacons.

The 12. Allegation or Demonstration.Demonstra. Idem de reg & superephe. 4.

The office must be restored as it is, Act. 6. if England receaue Christes dis­cipline.

The Deacons were not a meere corporall office of distribu­ters to the poore,Remon­strance. but also in part ministers about the Sacraments, and attendants on the Pastors to helpe them.

The 13. Allegation or Demonstration.

Martyr. Ro. 12.Demonstra. lamenteth that the name was scant remaining.

He speaketh of the pollicie of the Popish Church:Remon­strance. Ʋehemen­ter dolendum, &c. Substituerunt hijs cereferarios, acoluthos, subdia­conos, which orders we haue not.

The 14. Allegation or Demonstration.

Caluin. institut. li 4. ca. 3. sect. 9.Demonstrat. saith we ought to haue the like.

So we haue:Remon­strance. for the booke of ordination appointeth them this office, where other order is not taken. But Caluine prooueth women Deacons, and the perpetuitie of them out of the same [Page 157]place, which you giue the slippe vnto.

The 15. Demonstration or Allegation.

Deaconship is an ordinarie function.Demonstra. Beza confe. ca. 5. sect. 22.23.

What is this to the purpose? who maketh it extraordinary but your selues? who take away the attendance on the ministerie,Remonstran. his lawfull helpe?

The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

Philip, one of the 7. Deacons did preach. Act. 8.8. Ergo, Demonstra­tion.

The Answere of the Demonstrator.

He preached by vertue of being an Euangelist.

The wordes are: [...] Philip, after the persecuti­on,Remonstran, with reply. Herom. ad Luci­feri. Scias Phi­lippum eundem. Dominum Iesum Christum praedi­casse, diaconum certè fuisse eo­rum qui posteae manus imposue­runt. preached Christ going downe to Samaria, baptized also those whome he conuerted: Ergo, he preached as a minister of the word, and of that Sacrament, although by his first ordination a Deacon. Or shew where he had new imposition of handes, for the warrantie of that hee did: Offices then were not so precisely distinguished. I denie he was an Euangelist, as an officer di­stinct. Ephe. 4. but is called an Euangelist, as euery one may bee that preacheth the Gospel, and as all might be that were disper­sed. Act. 8.4. For all those [...], went abroade preaching the word.

The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

Stephen being a Deacon, preaeched.

Answere.Demonstra­tion.

It was an Apologie and no Sermon.

It was an Apollogeticall Sermon, as his Sermon beeing an exact Sermon declareth: He was no priuate man,Remon­strance, with reply. that was full of faith and power, refelled the Cyrenians, and Lyber­tines, and did manie signes, and confirmed his doctrine with his bloud. You cannot shewe so much pregnancie in all the scripture, that Philippe and Stephen euer distributed to the poore, as doeth here appeare for their preaching and baptizing also, as Philip did.

The Assertion of the Demonstrator.

That there ought to be Deacons in euery Congregation.Demonstra.

The 1. Demonstration.

That which euery congregation hath neede of, ought to be: But euery congregation hath neede, because it hath poore. Ergo,

That,Remon­strance. or the equitie of that ought to bee: Our Collectors, our Church-wardens, our Hospitals, Almes-houses, are in steed of that part of their corporall ministration or Deaconship in ma­ny places. Our Sauiour Iesus, although he faide, you shall haue poore alwayes with you, did not foorth with send the Deacons: therefore graunting of poore, doeth not necessarily inferre pla­cing of Deacons.

The 2. Demonstration.

That which is indefinitely appoynted for the good of the Church,Demonstra­tion. must be in euery Congregation: But such is. Timoth. 3.8. Ergo,

By your leaue Sir,Remon­strance. that which is definitely appoynted, must rather holde in euerie Congregation: for which cause we vp­holde the order of Deacons by institution Apostolicall, but neither manner of their election, nor number of 7, which the councell of Neocaesar. doeth allowe, and is after repealed by an other Councell. Your Maior is grossely false: Synodes and Classes are indefinitely appoynted for the good of the Churche, as you say: Ergo, they must be planted, and continually setled in euery parish.

The 3. Allegation or Demonstration.Demonstr. Igna. ad Philad.

Euery Church must haue the office of Deaconship.

Ignatius meaneth by a Deaconship, attendaunce on the Bi­shoppe in his See,Remon­strance. not a corporall Deaconrie. The wordes are, [...] There is one Bishoppe with the Elders and Deacons.

The 4. Demonstration.

All the reasons in the 12. chapter. for a Bishoppe in euery Congregation,Demon­stration. serue for a Deacon.

As good reason will be affoorded for a parishe Bishoppe, as onely a corporall Deaconship,Remon­strance. and the same an­sweres will serue them.

The fourteenth Chapter.

The Assertion.

THe Eldership consisteth of a Pastor, or pastors,Demostrat. (Doctor if there by any) and Elders.

Ergo, Remon­strance. your Doctor is not of this indecli­nable necessitie, wherein you follow the dis­cipline of Fraunce: But how can you then vrge the 4. Eph. for all these offices to bee in euerie congregation, and why doth your last absolute plat make them essentiall in euery Church, so as it cannot be a Church without them?

  • 1 The Eldership ought to be in euery congregation.
    Demon­stration.
  • 2 The Eldership is perpetuall.
  • 3 The Church must be gouerned onely by the rules of Gods worde.

The 1. Demonstration.

The means which Christ hath ordeined to keepe men in obedience, must be in euery Congregation.

But Christ hath or deyned the Eldership to that ende. Mat. 18.15. Dic Ec­clesiae, Tell the Church, Ergo: it must be in euery Congregation.

To the Minor.

Christ hath neither ordeyned any Eldership,Remon­strance. nor to any such ende, [...]. Tell the Church is not, [...] the pro­miscuous multitude of men, women, and children, nor yet the Lay Elders, but the lawfull Ecclesiasticall gouernours or magi­strates of the Church.

It is one thing to say, Dic senioribus ecclesiae, tell the Seniorie of the Church: another thing, tell the Gouernors of the Church, or the Church simply.

The 2. Demonstration.

Where all sortes of Elders must be,Demon­stration. there must be the ioyning of these of­fices in one: But all sortes of elders ought to be in euery Congregation, as in the chap. 10. for Bishops, 12. for Elders. Ergo:

To the Maior.

I doubt of the veritie of this Maior: Remon­strance. for it is not needefull where euerie sort of Ancients must be, there shoulde be com­bination and ioyning of the offices in one: for in the citie of London are the auncients of euery Corporation and mysterie [Page 160]to waite on the Lorde Maior, and to assemble at a Folkemote: Ergo, after your minde they must ioyne their offices, compa­nies, and mysteries all in one. They may ioyne the presence of their persons, they need not conioyne or confound the offices together in one, to make one entire office consisting of them all.

To the Minor.

Preaching and vnpreaching Elders, Doctorall and Pastorall cannot be in euery congregatiō, neither need be: for whence shal a man nourish them as Demosthenes saith? What, from heauen? for if they bee nourished from the earth, the encrease therof like vnto the caterpiller, they will eate vp euerie greene thing. If you say euerie sorte of them is prooued before: I am sure it is disproued also before. This Minor is false: for if they ought to bee, why doe you suffer the Doctour to bee wanting? at least not to bee of such necessitie, but that hee may bee spa­red?

The 3. Demonstration.

If no particular Congregation haue priuiledge greater giuen then o­ther,Demonstrat. then must eyther no Eldershippe be at all, or else in eurie Congre­gation: But euerie Congregation hath like priuiledge, because it is a perfect bodie. Ergo:

To the Assumption.

No Congregation hath anie priuiledge for Eldership,Remon­strance. and yet is a bodie perfect of it selfe: To adde anie thing to the per­fection of Arte is curiositie, to the perfection of nature monstru­ousnes: as for the Charter of the priuiledge of your Eldership, you haue not shewed it.

Let our Syllogisme be this:

If euery Congregation haue like priuiledge, then euery one or none must haue Doctors: But euery one neede not (but where it may be, as you say) Ergo, none must haue a Doctor, or else your owne collection is foolish.

The 4. Demonstration.

The same warrant that is for an Eldershippe in one place, is the warrant to haue it in all,Demonstrat. for GOD tyeth it not to Churches in cities, but to the Churche: But there is a warrant to haue in some, Ergo, in all.

To the Maior.

You say the verie trueth:Remon­strance. for your Consistoriall Eldership is warranted in no place: as for pastorall Eldershippe, it is [...] expounde it howe you will, for towneship or citie, al­though Paul and Barnabas ordeyned them. Actes 14. [...] through Iconium, Lystra, &c. for the commoditie of the Church.

To the Minor.

The [...] your fansied Eldership appeareth in no place. If any man be contentious for it, as for a diuine institution, the Churches of God haue receiued no such custome, for 1550. yeres together.

The Assertion.

That the Eldership is perpetuall.Demonstra­tion.

The 1. Demonstration.

If the causes why Christ would haue an Eldership be perpetual, then is the thing it selfe perpetuall: but the causes, vz. to gouerne the Church by the rules of the worde Ecclesiastically, are perpetuall. Ergo.

The Antecedent is true, if all the causes be perpetuall:Remon­strance. but here is mention onely of the finall cause. But a man may at­teyne well to the ende of gouernment Ecclesiasticall, and peace of conscience, without the complot of this Eldership, Ergo, all this is but a strong imagination. Why man, cannot the Church be gouerned by the rules of the worde, vnder no kind of persons gouernment, but of such an Eldership?

The 2. Demonstration.

If Christ bee the authour, and left it by his Apostles, to be establi­shed,Demonstra­tion. then it is perpetuall: But Christ is the Authout in that hee gaue giftes for the particular members, and the whole bodie thereof. So it appeareth, 1. Cor. 12.12. And the Apostles not going beyonde their commission, esta­blished it. Ergo, it is perpetuall.

To the Maior.

It is not necessarily true:Remon­strance. for Christ by his spirite was the Au­thour of that which the Apostles established for absteining from blood and strangled, yet was not this perpetuall.

To the Minor.

The very place which you meane (but quote wrong) vz. 1. Cor. 12.12. and afore, neither prooueth anie giftes giuen to the [Page 162]particular members of any such eldership, nor to the whole bo­die of it: the place is, as the body is one and hath many members, & al the members of that one body being many, is but one body, so Christ. What? doeth this proue any giftes giuen either to the particular members, or whole bodie of your Eldership? The giftes that a litle afore are reckoned, to be seuerally giuen to seueral persons, are: The worde of wisedome, the worde of knowledge, faith, giftes of healing, the working of great or miraculous workes, prophesie, discer­ning of spirites, diuersitie of tongues, and interpretation of tongues. If enery of these be a seuerall gift for a seueral officer in your Elder­ships, then in steede of three, vz. Doctors, Pastors, and Elders, (for I think you now haue learned of the French discipline to exclude Deacons) you haue nine officers in al. To runne ouer therfore but those officers you are hitherto agreed on: which of these seue­rall giftes shall the pastour haue? which the Doctour? and which the Elders? He that hath the worde of wisedome, shall he not haue the worde of knowledge, nor faith? and he that hath faith, the last of these three, shall he be knowne by it as by a specificall difference from the rest, and haue neither of the other? and hee that hath knowledge, shall he neither haue wisedome nor faith? Here you had neede to haue Ariadnes threede to winde your selues out of this Labyrinth: and how will ye accommodate the other sixe giftes, and to whom? the most whereof (if not all) are long agone ceas­sed. I knowe you cannot shew an ocular demonstration of these sixe giftes, remaining, (and atchieued not by industry, but with­out all ordinary meanes as it was then) in any Eldership or Sy­node in the world, nor euer shalbe able, if you liue out Methu­selah his yeeres. You see then the grosse absurdities that followe your appropriating and tying of seuerall giftes to your seuerall and peculiar officers: yet is it almost the onely reason in sub­stance, which (with a little diuersitie of dressing) you serue out in twentie seuerall dishes. And you may with confusion of faces acknowledge your licentious boldenesse in abusing the Scrip­tures both here and elsewhere, to make shewe of seruing your turnes: Which ariseth hereof, that you bring not your senses to the scripture, but draw the Scripture that is not of priuate interpre­tation vnto your owne fantasticall senses, and vnderstandings.

The 3. Demonstration.

Whatsoeuer is commanded and neuer repealed, the Church must receiue that as perpetuall: But such is the gouernment of the Church by the Elder­ship,Demonstra­tion. in that S. Paul mentioneth them, and are to be esteemed as commande­ments of the Lord. 1. Cor. 14.37. Ergo,

To the Maior.

One instance vndoeth this: to absteine [...] from stran­gled,Remon­strance. was a commandement neuer repealed, yet not binding vs, nor perpetuall.

To the Minor.

That is not the meaning of S. Paul: Whosoeuer is a Prophet or spirituall, let him acknowledge that the things which I write vnto you are the Lords commandements: what, for a presbytery or eldership? where is any such commandement in S. Paul? if it be, we embrace it as the Lords.

The wordes alleadged, are spoken of those Prophesyings in course by any Christian to whom it was reueiled, which was an vse of the primitiue Church: yet not retained now in any the re­formed Churches, and is condemned euen by our Consistorials in the Barrowists, a broode of their owne hatching. At Geneua, Caluin once erected such prophesyings, at which a learned Phisi­tion woulde often speake against the course of the doctrine of Predestination, in that sort as Caluin taught it, whereupon Caluin caused that Exercise to be strangled in his swadling clothes, so that a more pregnant place could not be brought to proue some commaundements of Christ vnto the first Church to be such, as cannot be vrged in perpetuitie: but yet for any such Eldership, we hold there is neither commaundement, nor example for one time nor for other.

The 4. Demonstration.

That whose partes are perpetual, & perpetuall giftes with it, that is perpe­tuall:Demonstra­tion. But the seuerall partes of the Eldership, as Pastor, Doctor, Elder, are perpetuall as it is proued in the 10. and 12. cap. Ergo,

To the Maior.

It is false: for that whose partes are decaying and ruinated,Remon­strance. Plutarch in Theseo. may neuerthelesse bee continuing or perpetuall: as the shippe wherein Theseus sayled into Candie to subdue the Minotaure, kept by the Athenians vnto the time of Pericles, euerie planke and piece altered, and yet the same shippe: as also our common [Page 164]wealth and Vniuersities are the selfe same they were 200. yeres agoe, though neuer a man of that age of life.

To the Minor.

Your answere hath bin many times before: they are not per­petuall as partes of any eldership. Pastours and Doctours are perpetuall, as an entire office or ministerie in the Church: as for Elders (as you meane them) they are in praedicamento nusquam, and therefore they and their giftes are no partes, nor yet entire officers in the Church. I take your fallacie to be, Elder is perpe­tuall, and shippe is perpetual, which are partes: Ergo, the whole Eldership is perpetuall: or that your eldership is in the letters of the Alphabet, Ergo, in the scripture.

The 5. Demonstration.

That which is grounded on the generall commaundement of scripture,Demon­stration. is perpetuall: but the gouernment by the Eldership in election, ordination, cen­sure, &c. is so proued in the seuerall. Ergo:

This Syllogisme is [...] mere trifling and tumbling vp and downe in cloudes of generalitie,Remon­strance. a meere daliance, and faileth of prouing. If elections and ordinations be named in scripture, can­not they be done by any means, but by such an eldership as you speake of? your Minor is false.

The 6. Demonstration.

That gouernment which hath power from God to beginne, continue, and strengthen both the gouernours,Demon­stration. and the people in their callings, and obedi­ence to Christ, that is perpetuall: But so is the gouernment by the eldership, because the Apostles vsed none other. Ergo:

The Maior draweth a goodly large compasse,Remon­strance. yet false: (as you thinke) for the Apostles, Euangelists, and Prophets had that vertue, and yet are ceassed. But proue the Minor by some quo­tation of a Text, that your Eldership is so because the Apostles vsed no other, and that they vsed it: or else I will not beleeue it for your sake, or for T. C. your maister, for whose sake you beleeue it. In the meane season, all that you depaint out for your Eldershippe, is a picture or poetrie: vt pictura posuerit.

The 1. Demonstration.

That gouernement which the twelue Apostles,Demonstrat. and Paul before they con­sulted together, did vniformely agree vpon and neuer repealed, must needes be of God and perpetuall: But such is the Eldership, as all the aduersaries do agree thereupon. Ergo,

To the Maior.

The Maior is a contradiction to your owne conscience:Remon­strance. for what reason may this be, They did neither conferre vpon it, nor consult together, nor made another priuie, nor asked one another aduise, nor by cōmandement enioyned, nor by tradition receiued it, and yet they did vniformely according to one forme & paterne condescend & agree vpon it? as much to say they did agree, that is, they did not agree, vele contra, did not agree, Ergo, agree.

To the Minor.

Such is not the eldership: for the Demonstrator hath no scrip­ture, no Synod of the Apostles for it. It is a shame to charge vs with the acknowledging of it.

The 8. Demonstration.

That which hath the same grounds,Demonstra­tion. which the preaching of the worde and ministration of the Sacraments, that is perpetuall: but such is the eldershippe grounded vpon the commaundement of Christ and his Apostles, and their practise. Ergo.

To the Minor.

This is saucily spoken: but not so soone proued,Remon­strance. To make your eldership equiualēt in durablenes with the word of God, which is more lasting then heauen and earth: for the heauen and earth shal passe, but the word of the Lord endureth for euer. The elder­shippe after your proiect is not so much, nor euer was tempora­rie, much lesse perpetuall, either by commandement or practise.

The 9. Demonstration.

That which hath like grounds to be perpetuall, as the Apostles,Demonstra­tion. Prophetes, Euangelistes to be temporall, that is perpetuall: but such is the Eldership: for the gifts of the immediate calling are gone, and the gifts of these are left: Ergo

To the Maior.

I denie the Maior, if you meane euery Apostleshippe,Remon­strance. Euan­gelist or Prophets office: for there are yet Apostles: Legatione pro Christo fungimur: wee are Embassadors or Apostles for Christ, though not immediatly called thereunto. It is shewed before, that they be in that place perpetuall aswell as Pastors or Doctors [...] till wee all meete together &c. Ephes. 4. but that which was extraordinary in their offices is ceassed, as the im­mediate calling, which the Demonstrator absurdly calleth a gift. Pastors also then had gifts extraordinary of healing and working other myracles: which though they be ceassed, the whole office is not.

To the Minor.

There is no proportion betweene ens & non ens, betweene El­dership which neuer was, and the Apostles 12. or 72. that some­time were. The giftes for teachers and spirituall gouernours are left: but the figment of the Eldership hath no shewe of them. What giftes of gouernment hath one of your Elders after impo­sition of hands more then afore? and doe you choose all that can gouerne? neither part of your Minor is true: for neither are sundrie of the Apostles, Euangelists, or Prophets giftes ceassed, neither haue your Elderships any peculiar giftes to such an office remai­ning in euery congregation.

The 10. Demonstration.

The ordinary remedie to cure diseases is perpetuall:Demonstra­tion. the Eldership is so, for Dic Ecclesiae will cure the diseases of the Church. Ergo.

To the Maior.

This Maior will make Apostles,Remon­strance. Euangelists, and Prophetes perpetuall, who were such remedies in their times.

To the Minor.

Supposing that which ought not be supposed, any conclusion foloweth thereupon: as for the elderships physicke or chirurgerie, al that followeth thereupō is but palliatiua cura a pretēce of cure: and if by dic Ecclesiae the eldership be meant, then shal the church be an ordinary remedy to cure the diseases of the Church, that is of it selfe.

The 11. Demonstration.

That gouernment which was vnder the lawe, & in respect of the substance continued in the Gospel,Demonstra­tion. and bettered by the accidents, that is perpetual: but such is the Eldership: 12. reason of the 1. cap. Ergo.

To the Maior.

If you can or haue proued the beginning of the eldership in the law,Remon­strance. continuance in the Gospel, let it stand to the worldes end: if not, quid dignum tanto feret hic promissor hiatu?

To the Minor.

The madde sicknesse of your reason and disproportion appea­reth in the answere there. There is no correspondence of any el­dership either to [...] of the greater number of 70. or of the 23. which is said to be the lesse: which do you challenge? [...], or [...]; speake plainely if you dare, or else the reason will retire vpon you thus,

That gouernment which neuer was vnder law or Gospel,Retortion. for essence or accidence of Church pollicie, may not be continued or begun in the Church: The eldership fancied ouer men & matters hath neither originall of time, nor priuiledge of authoritie, Ergo, the golden eldership may not begin or continue in the Church.

The 12. Demonstration.

If this eldership be alterable being once setled,Demonstra­tion. either it is in respect of the extraordinary offices ceassed, or of the addition of the magistrate: Not the first, for if the Church doeth neede, God doth euer giue giftes extraordinary, nor the secōd, for the magistrate is to defēd the building of the church. Ergo.

You might haue saued your paines in the antecedent:Remon­strance. for alte­ration foloweth or succeedeth that which was, and doth not suc­ceede that which is not. That which neuer was in the church ad­mitteth no alteration, no more then Tragelapsus, or Hyppocentau­rus, or the man in the moone: if you wil haue an issue in the que­stion, let it be this: where a Christian magistrate is, there needeth no eldership, it is ex super abundanti: and where it wanteth, God also hath other wayes then by such mixture of offices to gouerne the church. But thus I retort: To euery institution of his that hath neede, Gods sends gifts extraordinary: To your elders that want ordinary giftes fitte for so great gouernment, hee sendeth no gift extraordinary: Ergo your Eldership is not his institution.

The 13. Demonstration.

Either this is the best gouernment and perpetuall, or none at all:Demon­stration. but some gouernment must be the best and perpetuall: Ergo this is perpetuall.

This is handsomely concluded: this is best and worst,Remon­strance. or none at all: better none at all then neuer a whit the better: better no­thing then this Anarchicall or tumultuarie gouernment: vnlesse perchance you holde praestat malè esse quàm non esse. But there is a Christian ecclesiasticall gouernment already, though you will not see it: Christ in the middest of vs, though some do not know it. You must proue your disiunctiue Maior a litter better.

The 14. Demonstration.Demonstrat. Cofes. Helue. Tig. Ber. Gen. Pol. Hu. Scot. Horm. Cap. 8.

No man may iustly forbid de to returne to the olde constitution of the Church of God.

If you proue this to be the olde, and the institution to be for a perpetuitie, then this olde constitution is the best.Remonstrat.

The 15. Demonstration.

Experience teacheth this order was not for one, but necessary for all ages.Demonstrat, Caluin inst. lib. 4. cap. 3. sect. 8.

It is certaine that experience proueth it not so necessarie nor profitable: for else the Apostles would not haue instituted, and al succeeding ages followed so diuers an order of Church gouern­mēt by Byshops, which Zanchus thinketh was of the holy Ghost.

The 16. Demonstration.

Though the common wealth change her gouernment,Demonstra. P. Mar. 3. Rom the Church must keepe hers.

That is,Remon­strance. the lawes of the eternall lawgiuer for the essentiall matters of the Church gouernment, not external pollicie which is variable. Belike your meaning is, our common wealth must change our Monarchie into Tetrarchie to establish your Tetrar­chicall gouernment of the Church.

The 17. Demonstration.

Bucer dereg. Christi lamenteth that some would not haue the same discipline vsed now adayes which was vsed in the Apostles time.Demonstra­tion.

And so may we lament the foolish and proud resistance which is made to the superioritie of our prelates and gouernours,Remon­strance. which is no other then that was.

The 18. Demonstration.

Whittaker contra Duraeū speaking of discipline,Demonstra­tion. The Apostles haue written these lawes, not for a day or for the first age, but for all times to come, and that with obtestation. 1. Timoth 6.

Aetatem habet, Remon­strance. the man is of discretiō, let him answere for him selfe: It cannot be he meant your rules of discipline, he knoweth the absurditie of it, and that your presbyterium est figmentum hu­manum, and is no such commandement as Paul maketh obtesta­tion to haue kept.

The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

By this euery Parish shall follow? Demonstra­tion. their Seniors, and then there will be so many diuers fashions, seeing one may not meddle with another.

Answer of the Demonstrator.

The gouernment desired is vniforme for euery Church, and admitteth no change not in outwarde ceremonies, without a Synode of choise men out of euery Eldership.

Here is nothing but eldership vpō eldership,Remon­strance with reply. infinite elderships which the word of God describeth not: what neede we exchāge the vniformitie which we already haue, for that which is at the least suspicious to any well-sighted eye, if not pernitious? But if one Eldershippe will breede molestation in the planting of it, at all aduentures, what a doe will it make in the supplan­ting [Page 169]thereof? Quae nascentia mala sunt, ea crescentia peiora. They must haue (he saith) vniformitie euen in ceremonies not to be changed without a Synode of choise men: And were not ours so established? And yet they will not obserue them: May not we make as bolde with their ceremonies, and vse as small vniformi­tie as they doe now?

The 2. obiection of the Demonstrator.

If the Eldership being meane men choose an Erle, he must be at their becke.

The answere of the Demonstratour.Demonstrat.

No man chosen is compelled against his will: but he that despiseth to con­sult with others in Gods matters, because they be poore, reprocheth God that made them. 17. Prou. 5.

Heare this O ye princes and Earles of the land: you must be at the Elders becke and commaunde,Remon­strance. or else you blaspheme your and their maker. Salomons words are 17. Prou. 5.14. cap. 31. verse, He that mocketh or he that oppresseth the poore: not a word of Elders. This is a contradiction to your selfe: Any Earle or any man may choose or refuse to take it vpon him, because euery one hath a negatiue voyce, and yet he must be taken to disdaine if he doe refuse.

The 3. obiection of the Demonstrator.

It ouerburdeneth the Parish to prouide for so many Elders to be nourished. Demonstrat.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

They shall not neede, vnlesse they neede the liberalitie of the Church.

They shall not neede vnlesse they need: This is a fine reciprocation.Remon­strance. They will neede foorth with, and be idle and busiebodies, if they may haue maintenance. This Eldership is no vocation by the worde of God, and therefore burdensome to the Church. But if the Church be not bound to mainteine them, then they are none of those Elders that are worthie double honour, 1. Tim. 5. For by double honour, liberall mainteinance is there chiefly vn­derstood, as the reasons annexed and circumstances of that place doe import.

The 4. obiection of the Demonstrator.

It bringeth in a newe Popedome or tyrannie in the Church. Demonstrat.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

It is blasphemie to terme the gouernment so: for shall wee not yeelde our obedience to the Scepter of Christ?

Nay it is a name full of blasphemie,Remōstrance with reply. and the mysterie of An­tichrist, [Page 170]to call the bable of their Eldership (as they describe it) by the name of the Scepter of our blessed king and Sauiour Iesu Christ, and to challenge to themselues the obedience due to our Lorde Christ. Nay, if many Antichrists be worse then one, and many tyrants more intoilerable then one: then this, to tyrannize in the conscience by many Elderdomes and Popedomes, is My­sterium iniquitatis, which doeth aduaunce against Christ. Hath Christ no Scepter to gouerne his Church by, but in their hands? Doe all denie Christ to be their king, that refuse or haue not your Elderships? With what face can you deny Barrowes conclusions, that yeelde him these premisses to conclude by?

The 5. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

It is a kinde of Donatisme to challenge such authoritie ouer Princes. Demonstra­tion.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

It is flatterie to suffer Princes to doe what they list: This is Gualters obie­ction, an enemie to discipline.

Gualter is no enemie to discipline,Remon­strance with reply. but to Anabaptisticall dis­cipline. As for this discipline in vse, it is no flatterie of Princes: but if your Assertion might sway, we should haue flat rebellion and insurrection against al Christian Kings, especially against the sacred Maiestie of our most gracious and glorious Prince. What can the Papists imagine of greater waight to be holden from them, then the Scepter & kingdom of Christ as you do? And you are as tickle headed and handed being discontented as they are.

The 6. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

It taketh away the Princes authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall. Demonstrat.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

No more then it did from Dauid in his time, not so much as the Bishops do now: for the Prince requireth but this to see the Church well ordered, which the Eldership alloweth and craueth.

There was no such Eldership in Dauids time:Remon­strance with reply. Ergo no com­parison betweene this and that time. But this impeacheth her Maiesties Prerogatiue and preeminence giuen by all the Peeres, Lords Spirituall, Lords Temporall, the Commons in the lower house, Conuocation house, to set vp a Consistorie ouer all causes and persons, yea, ouer herselfe: For these men dreame, that all sheaues must bow to their sheaues, (which God forbid) for they are a quintessence of Eldership, aboue Sunne and moone, aboue the Imperial firmament. It is a slander to say, not so much as Bishops: [Page 171]for Bishops haue none authoritie of iurisdiction, but deriued from the Prince, vnto whose regall authoritie of the crowne all com­maunding superioritie is annexed. But you claime other and farre greater, as elsewhere is shewed.

The 7. obiection of the Demonstrator.

It transformeth the state of the Cōmon wealth into a meere popularitie, Demonstrat. and wil alter this gouernment.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

No, for what damage commeth by this discipline to the Magistracie, from the office of the Prince to the Headboroughes?

Because the Prince must gouerne after their direction,Remon­strance with reply. as the learned discourse doth say: The Prince shalbe but a feeling mem­ber, not an head or supreme gouernour of the Church: Princes must cast downe their Crownes, and submit their Scepters to the scepter of the Presbyterie: nay which is more odious, as T.C. doth apply, must licke vp the dust of their feete, that is of the Church, which is the Presbyterie: Because her Maiestie must not onely be directed by the regencie of the Eldership, but vpon their iudge­ments corrected also. They will make lawes, call Synodes, haue the last appellation, and many such like, as hath bene afore tou­ched. Finally, because her Maiestie hath neither dispositiue not cō ­sultatiue voice, she may not be priuie what the Presbyterie doeth, by her owne presence or by sending her Attorney: with many moe as they shall heare.

The 8. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

It will send contention and partialitie in iudgement. Demonstrat.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

Where can it be greater then in the Bishops kingdome?

Yes forsooth, greatest of al in the Tetrarches Popedom:Remon­strance with reply. But this is but to answer with recriminatiō, or reaccusing one another. Ve­rily as for the Bishops ministerie, it is no kingdome, neither your kingdom or tetrarchie any ministery. They are gouerned by lawes in al their proceedings, but you wil haue selfe wil and law of your owne minde, & blasphemously father it vpon scripture and Gods word: and so you do all most absurd and vnequal decrees of your elderships, as in many particulars (where they reigne) is shewed.

The 9. obiection of the Demonstrator.

It wilbe contemned, and so good order neglected. Demonstrat.

Answere.

Nay God wil procure awe to it: It is the Bishops pompe and officers, which deserue contempt.

But before in the 4. it was tyrannie,Remon­strance, with Reply. here contemptible, these are contrary.

God will not honour those that honour not him, or who with a newe inuention glorifie themselues. If the Bishops are in con­tempt, you are the men that contemne, Fastum Platonis maiore fastu. As for tyrannie and contempt, they are seated well in you: For Psal. 12. When Impij circumqua (que) obambulant quando exaltan­tur vilitas filijs hominum: the worde in Hebrew is Zuloth. When your Elders shalbe exalted and ride vpon the Cherubims, when the many, or baser sort doe tyrannize, it will be a contemptuous tyrannie in deede.

The 10. obiection of the Demonstrator.

All alterations be dangerous. Demonstra­tion.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

Neuer from Antichrist to Gods obedience: this might be Stephen Gardiners Argument.

All alterations are dangerous,Remon­strance, with reply. where thinges are religiously established, as with vs. As for Stephen Gardiner, hee made argu­ments De vera obedientia, which you, nor T.C.I.P. nor any Papist who (alike with you) impugne supremacie of Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall, can euer answere. De mortuis nil nisi bonum: pascitur in viuis liuor, post fata quiescit: So it should be.

The Assertion.

The Church must be ruled by the rules of Gods worde, &c. and not by the cursed and monstrous Canon lawe.Demonstra­tion.

The 1. Demonstration.

All gouernours are to execute their authoritie by the same warrant from which they haue it: But the gouernours of the Church haue their warrant onely from the word, 1. cor. 12.28: Ergo, onely by the word.

Here be quatuor termini. Remon­strance. It should be thus framed: By what warrant they haue gouernment, by the same warrant they must execute it: By the warrant of the word they haue their gouern­ment, Ergo, by the warrant of the word they must execute it.

This we graunt, that aswell the warrant to haue gouernment, as to execute it, must be grounded in the word: But hereof it fol­loweth not, that all particular and specificall points that may happen in and about the execution, are set downe in the warrant. Else what needed rules of discipline and Church gouernment [Page 173]for France, Scotland, Gernsey and Geneua, to be set downe as they are, if they were all afore expressed in Scripture? Nay they make them mutable vpon occasions, and therefore not commanded by Scripture, which nowe in your last platforme you distinguish to be vnderstoode not of the holy discipline which you say is Essen­tiall, but of the Synodicall, belike neither holy, nor Essentiall: and yet this moueable part containeth these Chapters or heades: Of the necessitie of vocation, the maner of vocation and bounds of it, of election, of the maner of exercising a mans vocation, the of­fice of the Ministers, and of the maner of the Liturgie, of making Sermons to the Church, of Catechisme, of other partes of Litur­gie, of Sacraments, of Baptisme, of the Supper, of fastes, of holy dayes, of Mariages, of Scholes, of students in Diuinitie and their exercises, of Elders, of Elderships, of Censures, of Church assem­blies, of Classes or conferences, of Synods, with the iudgement touching all the Discipline.

If the warrant both to haue a gouernment, and to execute it,Absurditie of the Demon­strator. be deriued from the commission of the prince, doeth it followe that all particular directions that may happen to be needefull about the execution of it, are there also set downe? But this sort of per­sons weigh not how their speaches agree, either with their owne wordes, with their practise, with reason, or with trueth, so they may make a vaine shewe of some appearance to their simple fol­lowers that are not able to iudge.

I doe not thinke this man can be angrie with the letter of the Canon lawe, but with the Canonists, Sacerdotes iuris, the Priestes and interpreters of the Lawe, who haue inflicted vpon him some censure of the Lawe. I knowe not what the quarrell is, but this I am sure, he doeth driue out by cursse of the Sanedrim or Presby­tery, the whole course of the Lawe: Me thinke all his fight is La­pitharum pugnae, disorderly fight.

The 2. Demonstration.

The Church must be gouerned by that which the Ministers must teache:Demon­stration. The Ministers may teach nothing but the word. 1. Cor. 11.23. Ergo.

Here is another transposition of the parts of the Syllogisme,Remon­strance. or no Syllogisme at all.

To the Maior.

This is strange doctrine, there must be no lawe in particular in the Church, but the Minister must at first teach. This is a confusi­on of diuinitie and law. If the meaning be that by nothing it must be gouerned, but what the Minister must teach (as it must needes be, for else he saith nothing:) Then is the Maior false, & the whole Syllogisme more false, as consisting al of meere negatiues, for only is an implied negatiue, as onely man is reasonable, is as much as no­thing is reasonable besides man: and then it standeth thus, By nothing must the Church be gouerned but what the Minister must teach: The Ministers may teache nothing but the worde, Ergo by nothing but the worde must the Church be gouerned. If the Syllogisme were good, the vntrueth of some part of it might thus appeare: By nothing but the word of God must the Church be gouerned: Neither your Synodical and variable discipline, nor your Eldership is the word of God: Ergo, by your Synodical disci­pline or by your Elderships, the Church may not be gouerned.

The 3. Demonstration.

That which maketh the Church obedient to Christ,Demonstrat. must be the direction whereby it is gouerned: The onely worde maketh the Church obedient to Christ: Ergo, It is to be gouerned by the rules of Gods word.

This is a spare demonstration, Remon­strance. and might be graunted also be­ing truely vnderstoode of the generall rules drawen out of Gods word, but there is no coherence in the Maior. The Minor is false speaking properly: for it is the spirite of God that worketh in vs obedience to Gods will.

The 4. Demonstration.

Euery kingdome and houshold must be gouerned by the lawes of the king:Demonstrat. The Church, &c. Ergo.

Occidit miseros crambe repetita magistros: Remon­strance. Coleworts twise boi­led. This was the 2. demonstration of the first Chapter.

The 5. Demonstration.

That which was ordeined to destroy the Church of God,Demonstrat. cannot be a rule to gouerne the same: But such is the Canon law, Abstract. Ergo.

To the Maior.

Scientia non habet inimicum nisi ignorantem: Remon­strance. This man know­eth not neither Paragraphe nor Rubrick of the law: he produceth the Abstract, as honest a man as himselfe: hee will be tried by [Page 175]his fellow, because hee will not willingly trouble the countrey. Canon lawe (viz.) decrees of godly Councils, was in vse before An­tichrist came in, if you take the vulgar computation of Antichrists comming in: what thereof is reteined, is afore shewed. Was there not as heedefull aduise taken, and by as sufficient men, as met a­bout setting downe of their discipline? I would they would but take the paines themselues to conferre the Canon lawe, and their owne platforme together, for causes Matrimonial that often may happen: and then iudge whether they haue prescribed sufficient direction for all or most occurrences that may happen in the compasse of their gouernment.

The 6. Demonstration.

That which was inuented by the Dragon to persecute the Church,Demonstrat. cannot be good for the Church: But the Canon law. Ergo.

If you meane Draco the Athenian, he writ his lawes in blood:Remon­strance. If you meane the Dragon in the Reuelation, he writ no lawes, vn­lesse he be penman of the Presbyterie lawes. He might haue made seueral Demonstrations like this, one with the Deuil, another with Sathan, the thirde with Beelzebub, &c.

The 7. Demonstration.

That which strengtheneth the power of darkenesse and ignorance,Demonstra­tion. is not good for the Church: But the Canon lawe encreaseth Poperie, for scarce any officer of knowledge towards it, but is a Papist, Ergo.

To the Minor.

It is rather as a medicinable poison to expel another: Nothing better is to ouerthrowe the Papacie, then by the Canons of his owne lawe. As for your prosyllogisme, It encreaseth Papists, Ergo. Poperie, the officers are much beholding to you: O cancred minde and venemous tooth and mouth. There be officers that knowe it and haue studied it, which are able to reason more soundly against Poperie, then the haughtiest Rabbyn of you all. Alas the Iesuites desire no better match, then to haue a Puritane come to reason with them, they are so farre to seeke in the con­trouersies. I am assured more sounde arguments may be drawen out of that Lawe against the Pope and Poperie, then three of the best of our Puritanes can bring out of all their readings. Gentiletus a Protestant lawyer hath confuted the Tridentine Council, euen out of the Decrees of Gratian.

The 8. Demonstration.

That which destroyeth the Church,Demonstra. cannot be good to rule: But the Canon lawe destroyeth it, for it crosseth euery faithfull Minister in discharge of his duetie. Ergo.

Hinc illae lachrymae. Remon­strance. Lex non est posita iustis: there is no lawe but for lawlesse men. If all the olde Canons and course of law were gone, then you were safe ynough, you and your Elders would be Popes in your owne Parishes. And is in deede the Church de­stroyed, when any of you be crossed in your maner of dischar­ging your Ministerie? The Church (I perceiue) with you hath ma­ny significations.

The 9. Demonstration.

That which hath bread more traiterous Papists in England,Demonstrat. then the Semi­naries of Rhemes and Rome, cannot be good: but the Canon law, &c. Ergo.

This is a seditious and franticke Paradoxe: Remon­strance. well, you shall haue somewhat for the making: your credite shalbe in the next De­monstration: none shall beleeue you. Belike they were conuerted to Poperie by the studie of the Canon lawe: euen as like, as if a man woulde say, that your discipline is able to conuert from Poperie to the Gospel.

The 10. Demonstration.

That which nourisheth the hope of Antichrist to come in againe,Demonstrat. cannot be good: But the Canon lawe: for it keepeth the cages of these vncleane birds, as Archbishops, Lord bishops, Arches, Cathedral Churches: Ergo.

This birde would sing in a Bridewell cage,Remonstr. if he be not caged in another maner of cage, or deplumed rather for libelling against Iudgement seates, and Colleges of the Prophets: O shamelesse follie: as if Poperie were come in, it coulde not bring with it the whole Popes lawe, though it were abrogated in the meane time.

The 11. Demonstration.

That which all the Churches haue cast off as vnfit,Demonstrat. cannot be good: But all the Churches that haue forsaken the Pope, haue cast it off. Ergo.

The Maior tendeth to Donatisme or Brownists Antichristianitie.Remonstr.

To the Minor.

An instance is: The reformed Churches of Germanie, Den­marke, and Sweden, that retaine much of it: and so our Church: But they will denie ours perhaps to bee a Church reformed. [Page 177]What follie were it where a case happeneth with a iust & equall decision, to determine the contrarie, because hee was an ill man vnder whose authoritie it was first published? Though Rich. 3. was an vsurping tyraunt, his lawes were very good and are yet reteyned, and so are the sounde iudgements that were giuen in times past by Papistes, Iudges, and badde men.

The 12. Demonstration.

We our selues mislike it, as appeareth by a statute of Edwarde the 6.Demon­stration.

We doe not mislike but abridge:Remon­strance. an abridgement or excepti­on vnto part, is not misliking of the whole: By an abridgement no more was intended then to haue it perfectly knowen what was profitable to be reteined, as not contrary to the prerogatiue Royall, nor lawes of the land. O golden Demonstrations of a lea­den Demonstrator.

The fifteenth Chapter.

Assertion.

GOuernours of the Church may not meddle but in mat­ters Ecclesiasticall onely: as vocation, abdication, Demon­stration. in deciding of controuersies, in doctrine and maners, as farre as appertaineth to the conscience and censures of the Church.

This Assertion is laid out by him,Remon­strance. not so much to signifie what apperteineth to Church gouer­nours, as what not apperteineth: viz. ciuill cau­ses: which he fancieth that Bishops doe exercise, and to claime as appertayning vnto their functions. By abdication hee meaneth deposition of Church officers: the worde signifieth properly a vo­luntarie putting away of an office, but hee thinketh it is abdicati­on when it is taken away against a mans will: such a fault may be forgiuen to a poore smatterer in learning, when he taketh it vp at a more learned mans hand per fidem implicitam, and he only to be blamed that thus serued him on trust. The French disciplines both, and their practise together with the booke written in con­firmation of that discipline, do attribute to euery consistorie or El­dership authoritie and power to make lawes ecclesiasticall. This [Page 178]part of power our men neuer reach at plainely & in direct termes, because it were likely to be enuious, & perhaps would proue ey­ther too hotte or to heauie vnto them. And it is wisely (me thin­keth) considered of them besides: for when all other lawes for Church gouernment are once taken away, then shall their power be more absolute, if none in their steade be set downe, but all left to their owne wils. And seeing they haue left to themselues deci­ding of all controuersies in doctrine and manners, as farre as appertai­neth to the conscience, there is still measure large ynough in their owne handes to supplie this want at the full: for this one limme of authoritie will carry all causes (though most ciuill in their na­ture and practise) out of all Courtes in the land vnto their Elder­ships. First the Chancerie, that decideth matters of controuersie by conscience, is clearely dammed vp and may goe picke paigles. And are any other ciuill Courtes in better case? no verely: for can any controuersie be betwixt man and man, but it appertaineth to conscience, to giue the matter contended for, vnto him to whō of right it is due? You may not therefore maruaile hereafter if you chaunce to heare a man excommunicated by them (among whom this discipline reigneth) for refusing to cancell a band, if they thinke it vnconscionable, or denying to acquitte a debte, though it were with the creditors vndoing. This (forsooth) is no ciuill cause or matter at the cōmon law, though Littleton would depose twētie times that it were. By vocation I thinke they meane the first nomination of a man vnto the people for an ecclesiasticall office. They leaue out election, because they would seeme more popular then the French discipline that giueth to the Eldershippe both vocation and election: but by that time the cardes bee dealt out, you shall see all comes to one passe: for whom they no­minate, he is thereby chosen, if the people do not gainesay it: and if they all doe, there must also a cause be both alleadged, and al­lowed by the Eldershippe, before he can be reiected.

They mention not here ordination by imposition of hands vpō the elected by the Eldershippe: but we see by other places that they haue an eye vnto it not to loose it. I will aske therefore all the learned of that side, where, by any pregnant place they finde or­dination of Ministers of the worde with imposition of handes, or the censures of the Church inflicted in or since the Apostles time, by [Page 179]or vnder the authoritie of those that themselues are no ministers, but in all other respectes are meere lay men, and but annuall or biennall officers in the Church? If they cannot shewe it, let them for euer hereafter holde their peace, and confesse it to bee (in trueth) a deuise of mans braine, which they woulde seeme so much to detest in Church gouernment.

The 1. Demonstration.

That which our Sauiour Christ refused ruling and gouerning the Church,Demonstra­tion. and teaching the Church, that is not lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person to doe: but Christ refused to diuide the inheritance, Luk. 12.14. Ergo Ecclesia­sticall persons may not iudge in ciuill matters.

The syllogisme is to be concluded newe againe:Remon­strance here are foure termini foure termes in three quarters of a yeere. One conclusion is, Ergo ecclesiasticall persons may not iudge in ciuill causes: ano­ther should be, Ergo ecclesiasticall persons may not diuide lande or inheritance: Amphor a caepit institui, currente rota, sic vrceus exit.

To the Maior.

The Maior is to be denied: all that our Sauiour refused, euery of vs may not refuse: he because he came to be a mediatour be­tweene God and man, would not become a common diuider, and iudge of euery secular cause of title of land: who made me? &c. neither my heauenly father sent me to that end: neither haue I commission from thy brother to sende thee into the moietie of the possession. Besides, if he had intermedled in the matters of the common weale, it would haue strengthened the conceipte, that he sought an earthly kingdome, and to dispossesse the Romanes. To reason from Christes refusal, is the refuse of all good reason, à non facto ad ius: Christ woulde not or did not answere Pilate in iudgement: must we therefore conclude, Ergo at the tribunall of a Iudge, it is at our discretion to answere or not to speake? Christ did not condemne the woman taken in the acte of adul­terie: shall not therefore officers Ecclesiasticall condemne any such sinner?

To the Minor.

Christ refused to diuide the inheritance: it was because hee woulde not vse the authoritie that hee had as Lorde of [Page 180]Heauen and earth when he came as a seruant: not because either a Christian magistrate or minister shoulde after his example lay aside all authoritie: [...]; who hath appointed me, empli­eth rather, that if he had bene appointed by both the parties, he might haue done it, and so may any minister arbitrate and compounde a controuersie ciuill that is committed vnto him. If any Christians may be iudges of ciuill matters 1. Cor. 6. why may not some ministers in some ciuill matters? If then hee may whome the Church appointeth, nay whome two priuate men consent vpon, though he be a person ecclesiasticall: may not the Christian Soueraigne Prince much more commit a ciuill cause vnto them, and they lawfully deale in it? Or if it will be saide, they may not so deale in causes ciuill delegated vnto them: is then the sinne hereof in him who delegateth, or who is de­legated, or in both? But I neede not wade further into this matter, I haue spoken something to it afore. More authori­tie ciuill then is delegated vnto them, no Byshop hath, may haue, or doeth claime in this Realme: and therefore except they will impugne this point, their labour is superfluous. By the way I will propounde this vnto them: If all ciuill rule and authoritie bee denied to persons Ecclesiasticall (as in it selfe impious) howe may they rule their wiues, children, and housholde, which is oeconomicall power, and therefore ci­uill, as ciuill is opposite to ecclesiasticall? Likewise howe may they cast their accompts, receiue their rentes, &c. Nay when they are rubbed with their laye Elders, and can no where finde them, then they say they are not lay, but Ecclesiasticall persons, because they haue imposition of handes. If they bee therefore so to bee accompted,Countrey poyson. then howe may they lawfully euen in the yeere of their Eldership, be also ciuill magistrates, as Sheriffes, Iustices of peace, maisters of their companies, counsel­lours, Syndicks, and what not though most ciuill, as dayly experi­ence teacheth where that discipline is in vre? Belike their asser­tions and rules are made onely against byshoppes, not against themselues.

The 2. Demonstration.

That which was forbidden to the Apostles,Demon­stration. is vnlawful for ecclesiastical of­ficers: but such dominiō was forbiddē, Luk. 22.28. which is to rule ciuilly. Ergo.

That which was forbidden &c. is vnlawfull.Remon­strance.

But ambition, tyranny, & contention for absolute, seigneurial and ciuil authoritie was forbidden, not a modest, either ciuill or ecclesiastical superiority: ergo, to be ambitious, & contentious, &c. is vnlawfull. In that here he applieth that of Luke to ciuill rule, hee cleareth our Bishoppes from the daunger of it, in exerci­sing anie authoritie Ecclesiasticall. This Argument is answered before.

The 3. Demonstration.

If necessarie dueties are to bee left rather then our duetie in the Church,Demonstra­tion. then may not a Church-officer deale in ciuill iurisdiction: but the former is true, for a man may not burie his father. Luc. 6.59. Ergo,

I denie the sequele of the Antecedent: Remon­strance. albeit some corporall or bodily offices, which duetie biddeth to be done, may vpon Christes commaundement be left vndone, yet this is no barre to ministers and preachers of the Gospel, to deale in any necessarie ciuill cause. And how is it proued that no ciuill iurisdiction may stand with doing of his Church duetie? There is none of them­selues, but they can be content to be executors to a wealthy wi­dow, or such like: being no more afraid of it then they are to bu­rie them.

To the Assumption.

Your quotation should be the 9. of Luke: the meaning of which place is, All Christians must lay aside all impedimentes and hinderaunces, that may drawe them from comming to Christ: but some ciuill authoritie amongst Christians, is rather a furtherance.

What consequence cal ye this? A man may not bury his own father, rather then not follow Christ, or if Christ otherwise en­charge him, Ergo, a minister that liueth in a Christian common wealth, may not lawfully haue a branch of commission from the prince for ciuil iurisdiction?

The 4. Demonstration.

If he that hath an office must attend on his office,Demonstra­tion. then may hee not in­termeddle with another office: But the first is true, Rom. 12.7. Ergo, not with ciuill iurisdiction.

He may not intermeddle without lawfull calling or vocation,Remon­strance. yet the connexion hath no sequele: Doe you not see some [Page 182]that haue two offices looke neere inough to both? This will roaue at temporall men, as well as at ecclesiasticall.

S. Paul disputeth of diligence in our function, not of diuersitie of functions, which diuerse functions may concurre in one. See the answere to the first: thus I retort against your selues: He that hath an office may not intermeddle with another.Retortion. A Pastor hath an other office in the Church then his Presidentship in their El­dership: Ergo, A pastor may not intermeddle in the Consistorie or Eldership.

The 5. Demonstration.

As the Souldier is in warfare,Demonstrat. so is the Church-officer in ruling of the church: but the souldier entangleth not himselfe with things of this life: which place Cyprian alleadgeth against a minister that became an executour of his friends will. Ergo, Church-officers not with things of this life.

To the Maior.

The Maior holdeth wherein the proportion is to be held,Remon­strance. for readines and expedition.

To the Minor.

The souldier is not to be a pragmatical fellow in other world­ly affaires, [...]. No more the Diuine or preacher to be a worldling. As for the place of Cyprian lib. 1. epi. 9. it may serue any of your elders, that would encomber thēselues eyther with that or any other troublesome execution: yet it is spoken of a tutorship or Gardianship which was by the Romane law more troublesome, and lesse beneficial then an executorship, and often times very dangerous to the state of the Tutor.

The 6. Demonstration.

Thinges of contrarie qualities cannot concurre.Demonstrat.

The gouernment of the Church and common weale are so: for they are both next speciall members of one generall: the one spirituall, the other temporall: the one for the soule, the other for the bodie. Ergo,

To the Maior.

Things of contrary qualities may concurre in vno subiecto, Remon­strance. in one subiect, not in extremities of degrees, but remissiuely, not in intenso gradu: but the Maior is the contradiction of the Mi­nor: where you say they are speciall members of one general, &c. I take your meaning and not your wordes, things desparated are [Page 183]not verifiable one of another, or one of these two differences are not coincident one vpon another. True it is, ciuill gouernment is not Ecclesiasticall, nor Ecclesiasticall ciuill: Ergo, say you, these cannot meete in one. This is most false: for Morall vertues are not intellectuall, nor intellectuall morall, Ergo, shal it follow, none shall haue them both? they may be in vno subiecto communi, & adequa­to, not proprio. Occonomie is not policie, nor policie Oecono­mie, Ergo, none can gouerne his house and priuate wealth, and the common wealth also. This is also false.

As for the addition of your Minor, the one, &c.

Ecclesiasticall gouernment is not onely spirituall, which con­cerneth the conscience inwardly: but Christian magistracie is al­so spirituall concerning the visible Church. The other temporall. It is not onely temporal, vnlesse ye meane amongst the Church: spiritual gouernment respecteth principally the soule, not onely the soule: Temporal gouernment not onely the body, but secon­darily toucheth the conscience and soule, vnlesse you can fayne a body without a soule. Here is your errour: you doe not vnder­stand that Christ doeth gouerne by the magistrate and minister both spiritually and externally: howbeit by himselfe onely spiri­tually, which doeth plunge you in this Turkish errour.

The 7. Demonstration.

If the whole gouernement of the Churche in particular office,Demonstra. and in the whole Eldershippe bee of great weight, then may not a Churche of­ficer intermedle in anie other calling: But the first is true. Ergo, the second.

If you meane your imaginable Eldershippe,Remon­strance. and offices of your owne creation, vpon your owne surmise you may conclude what you list: if you meane pastoral eldership, and our rightfull officers, the sequele of the antecedent may iustly be denied. For if the Church-gouernment be neuer so weighty, yet it is not di­minished by laying on the commission of some ciuill authoritie deriued especially from the supremacie of the prince.

Let my reason march vpon you thus.

If their Eldership ouer all mens doctrine and manners, be too ponderous a weight for [...] certaine priuate men, artisans, and plowe men, and others for to beare, then may they wel forbeare: But the former is true, Ergo, the later.

The 8. Demonstration.

If the Apostles were vnsit for two offices both ecclesiasticall,Demonstra­tion. then is the best church-gouernor vnfit for two: the one of the common wealth, the other of the Church: But the first is true. Act 6.2. Ergo,

This Antecedent commeth to this summe:Remon­strance. If the Apostles were vnfit to be Deacons and ministers, then is no Christian or the best gouernour for two more different offices vnfit.

  • First, the Apostles were not vnfitte for it: but it for the A­postles.
  • Secondly, the text speaketh not of vnfitnesse or insufficiencie, but of inconueniencie or vnmeetnesse. [...].
  • Thirdly, though it were vnmeete for the Apostles to leaue the ministration of the worde, and to minister vnto tables: (because other might be founde, who were meete for that place) Ne­uerthelesse, they beyng Apostles, and extraordinary men, might at their discretion relinquish one office, and exercise another. It must not necessarily follow hereupon, that none being Ecclesi­asticall men may beare a ciuil office amongst Christians, and for Christian men.

To the Assumption.

That is denied to be expresly in the text: But let the argu­ment be drawne indifferently for vs both.

Either you account those two offices, of Deaconrie and mini­sterie, greater, or lesse then a ciuill office and Ecclesiasticall all in one. If greater, why then you see that successiuely for the com­moditie of the Church, the Apostles vsed both. If lesse, howe holdeth your argument from the lesse to the greater, or from the greater to the lesse, sith with you the least Ecclesiasticall offi­cer for the soule, is greater then any ciuil officer for the bodie?

But if your reason be thus, One man may not beare two hie offices, both of great importance: Ergo, he may not beare one ec­clesiastical office, another ciuil, the one of great, the other of lesse credit: The reason doth bende against your selues: the Apostles did exercise one office of greater, another of lesse weight, for the well ordering of the Churche in their owne person: For where haue you proued, that they did cleane relinquish and put off the same? Sith Saint Paul was carefull for collection and distributi­on of almes, 1. Cor. 16. cap. Ergo, an Ecclesiasticall person may [Page 185]haue in remissis gradibus, both authorities in a Christian Com­mon wealth, which neither is nor ought to be secluded from the Church. Goe and reconcile your selfe with your brother, that writ so absurdly and confusedly de Politia Ciuili & ecclesiastica: for he is directly against you herein.

The 9. Demonstration.

That which was intollerable in the Papists, in vs is vnlawful:Demonstrat. To beare both swords was intollerable in them, Ergo in vs.

To the Minor.

To beare both swords for the Q. or Prince, that is,Remon­strance. to receiue as well temporall as spirituall iurisdiction from and for God and the Prince, is not intollerable neither repugnant to the worde. To vsurpe Christes office, or to vsurpe supreme ciuil power iure di­uino as certaine Bishops of Rome haue done and claime, or to place themselues in Princes thrones, that is vnlawfull: You can neuer shewe any such resemblance betwixt a Bishop being a Iu­stice of peace or counseller, and the Popes vsurped authoritie claimed as due vnto him.

The 10. Demonstration.

If it be lawful for an Ecclesiastical man to exercise the office of a ciuil ma­gistrate,Demonstrat. then è contra, for the ciuill magistrate to exercise the office of an Ec­clesiastical person: but the later is vnlawful, ergo the former.

The one is not as lawfull as the other,Remon­strance. though vpon a law­full calling I see no reason why a ciuill magistrate may not exer­cise, &c. But where the example of the one is more frequent then the example of the other, there it may seeme more lawful for the one then for the other. It was lawfull for Samuel to kill Agag, which was the office of Saul: but not lawfull for Saul to offer sa­crifice, which was the office of Samuel. The office of the ciuil ma­gistrate may by commission or deriuation of power, be commit­ted to whom best pleaseth him, not è contra: The reason is, the ciuill gouernment is a matter of accident, not of the essence of the Ministerie.

I see no refusal you can make of this absurditie,Absurditie of the Demon­strator. if you so deeme it: If a ciuill man may exercise the office of an Ecclesiasticall per­son, then may an Ecclesiasticall man much rather execute the of­fice of a ciuil person, for that is but an accessorie thing to the principall office which hee beareth: But a ciuil man may be an [Page 186]Elder, that is an Ecclesiasticall officer, and the most honourable may not refuse without disdaine of God (as you say,) Ergo the Ecclesiastical person may beare the office of a ciuil magistrate.

The 11. Demonstration.Demonstrat.

They may not entangle themselues with worldly affaires,Can. aposto. c. 80. but Ecclesiastical.

He must commodum se exhibere vsibus Ecclesiasticis, Remon­strance. so that hee may best serue for the vses and seruices of the Church: Or so that one be not an impediment to another.

The 12. Demonstration or Allegation.Demonstrat.

None of the clergie shall receiue charges of those who are vnder age,Conc. Calcedon. ca. 3. & 7. or be steward to noblemen, or receiue any secular honour.

That is,Remon­strance. none of the Clergie shall take the tutorship of any, or make a confusion of callings and functions: otherwise the Canon carieth no sense.

The 13. Demonstration,Demonstrat. or Allegation.

The Bishops shall onely attend to prayer,4 Conc. Carth. ca. 20. and preaching, and reading.

The wordes are, Episcopus nullam rei familiaris curam ad se re­uocet: Remon­strance. Or he shalbe so employed vnlesse vpon lawful commaund and calling. His housholde cares may not make him forget his charge: yet hee must haue care thereof, & bene praeesse propriae do­mui, as S. Paul teacheth. But doe you thinke this Canon barreth you from prouiding for your household affaires, or to be masters in your owne houses?

The 14. Allegation, or Demonstration.

Caluin. Institut. lib 4. cap. 11. sect. 9. bringeth diuers reasons to prooue that Bi­shops may neither take nor vsurpe any ciuil office.Demonstrat.

Caluin bringeth them,Remon­strance. but you can not bring forth the reason, but like god Mercury in the high way point which way they go, but vtter nothing. There is neuer an one of his reasons conclu­dent, to proue it simply vnlawfull, but by way of that which may happen by it.

The 15. Allegation, or Demonstration.

Beza confess. cap. 5. Sect. 32. & 42. sheweth the distinguishment of offices,Demonstrat. and how the fathers dealt in things of this life, and how the Apostles punishments were extraordinarie.

Ergo is not so cleare on your side:Remon­strance. for if the Apostles censures were extraordinarie, how dare you draw some of them into con­sequence? If giuing of aduise in all matters of warre and peace, and in determinations iudiciall be matters of this life, then Beza [Page 187]himselfe vseth ciuil authoritie as much as any one Ecclesiasticall man in any reformed Church in Europe.

The 16. Allegation or Demonstration.Demonstrat.

When both offices meete in one, the one hindereth the other.Martyr. 13. R [...].

That is, when the ciuil power is excessiue or illimitable:Remon­strance. The same Martyr out of Chrysostome saith, The Gospel was giuen to sta­blish the policie and gouernment of Princes, and why not the policie of Princes for the Gospel?

The 17. Allegation, or Demonstration.Demonstrat.

There is no man so wise & holy, able to exercise ciuil & ecclesiastical power.Bucer 5. Matth.

That is, in plenitudine potestatis. Remōstrance

The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

It countenanceth and mainteineth religion. Demonstrat.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

It is the Papists reason which Caluin confuteth. Inst. lib. 4. cap. 11. sect. 9. for the two swords.

The reason is no worse whose reason soeuer it be,Remon­strance with reply. but to two swordes it serueth not: there is one indepriuable authoritie to beare the sword.

The 2. obiection of the Demonstrator.

It is good to punish vice by corporall punishment, that the word may be obeyed. Demonstrat.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

It is good to preach the word, that they may obey their Prince for consci­ence sake. May the magistrate therefore preach? We must doe good agreea­ble to our calling.

Yea therefore it is good,Remon­strance with reply. being granted frō the Christian ma­gistrat to punish sinne corporally: as for the wanderment of your instance, if the magistrate be so called, he may preach obedience in his owne person: and he that inflicteth corporall punishment, doe no more then may stand with his calling.

The 3. obiection of the Demonstrator.

Eli and Samuel were both Priestes. Demonstrat.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

They were extraordinarie, and so was Eliahs killing of Baals priestes, and Christs whipping of buyers, &c. God separated them in Moses and Aaron.

Cohanim in Hebrew signifieth princes and priests,Remon­strance with reply. and therefore that is doubtfull. Though the men were extraordinarie, the of­fices are not alwayes so: but they leaue the vse of corporall infliction, to punish Atheisme and Idolatrie, and to augment godlinesse. It is ordinarie with you to answere all thinges by [Page 188] extraordinarie, when you can hit of none other: all the old Testa­ment is full of such examples of Ecclesiasticall men, who exerci­sed ciuill power, yea not being delegated by any superiour Ma­gistrate, and therefore seemeth ordinarie that falleth out so often and in so many.

The 4. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

Peter killed Ananiah:Demonstrat. Ergo Bshops may haue prisons.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

It was with the worde onely. If they can doe like, Peters example wil serue: If not, then it is extraordinarie.

Hierom epistola ad Demetriadem is not of your minde:Remon­strance with reply. Petrus nequaquam imprecatur eis mortem vt stultus Porphirius calumnia­tur, sed Dei iudicium prophetico spiritu annunciat, did not curse them by his word as Porphirie the foole would, but in a prophe­tical spirit telleth them of Gods iudgement that was at hand.

First wee make no such obiection: The Bishops haue no pri­sons, they had lately custodias of clerkes conuict, but they were not carceres vnto which they committed them for their offence done, but were sent thither to be in safetie (being persons found guiltie) till by course of lawe (as it then stood) they should be de­liuered. Yet in one case they may as Bishops by a statute of H. 7. imprison at this day: viz. a minister of his Diocesse conuicted of incontinencie, he may commit to a priuate prison, and enioyne him what straite diet or penance he thinketh fit. I thinke so they and their Eldership might haue this authoritie, they would let it passe the musters. But that the hypocrisie of them may better appeare (who here speake against Bishops prisons and ciuill pu­nishments) it would be asked of them, what difference (in the substance of the matter) it is, for an ecclesiastical person to com­mit a man to prison himselfe, or for their Elderships to haue a bedle or Sergeant of the ciuil Magistrats attending on their Con­sistories euery Court day, who both bringeth thither by force such as will not come being sent for, and carieth such to prison as the Eldership iudge to deserue it? as the vse of Geneua is: or to procure gouernours of Bridewell to whippe one of their Church that abused the Minister in speaches (sitting with his Eldership in Consistorie) as not long since one of the French Church in Lon­don was vsed? Belike it is lawfull for vs to crie, Take him away, [Page 189]crucifie him, but we may not in any case kill or punish any man our selues: Oh that were ciuill authoritie, farre bee it from vs.

The argument shoulde proceede thus: Peter killed Anani­as by ciuill extraordinarie iurisdiction, and not by his worde one­ly: although they cannot doe the like. Neuerthelesse, by ordina­rie power committed to them, they may doe the lesse: and there­fore imprison for disciplining the inordinate and correction of the badde, where the magistrate imparteth to them such autho­ritie.

The sixteenth Chapter.

Assertion.

THe placing of Church-officers pertaineth to the Elder­ship,Demonstra­tion. and also the displacing.

The 1. Demonstration.

They who are lawfully called from heauen to the mi­nisterie, & outwardly, by the means of men may not be displaced being blamelesse. 1. Timoth. 3.10. But suche are the ministers, whome the Bishoppes doe displace.

Ergo,

Howe doeth this agree with the issue,Remon­strance. or Assertion he taketh vpon him to proue? vz. that as hee hath proued (he saith) afore the Eldershippes authoritie of placing, so nowe he proues that they haue the displacing of ministers. What? euen without the peoples consent? Beware this be no tyrannie by your owne con­structions: Cuius est instituere, eius est destituere, & è conuerso. But I pray, good Demonstrationers, doeth this followe? Bishops displace men whom they ought not, because they are blamelesse men, Ergo, displacing of ministers belongeth to the Eldership? yet this is your reasoning in this Chapter. Your brother Mar­tine Malapert in Thesibus, will ease both Bishops and Eldership of this labour. For he sayeth, that a minister once called may vpon none occasion, by any humane authoritie bee displaced, or put from preaching. Belike it shalbe a sanctuarie for him, though he preach daily treason, or committe anie wickednesse whatsoe­uer: your griefe is onely because you with your Eldership haue not the displacing of them: for if you had, it should then well be seene, howe farre one man differeth from another, and that the [Page 190]commissioners ecclesiastical are but sillie fellowes in comparison of you, at remouing of a minister. O beware at a dead lift, (as long as you liue) of halfe a score substantial fellowes bredde vp at home.

To the Minor.

How many such are there of them, whome the Bishops haue displaced?

‘Numero vix totidem quot Thebarum portae, vel diuit is ostia Nili:’ Not so many as the gates of Thebes haue beene euer so displaced: nay, name one and we graunt all. They are othergates men then you beare the world in hand: men cankered with malice, pyning away with enuie of the present flourishing estate, swolne with pride and ouerweening of themselues, whose learning is contention, whose zeale is singu­laritie and factious studie, ingendring schisme and heresie in the Church. As for the difference betweene vs and them, euen so great as is betweene obedience and rebellion to God and the Prince: these are the men the Bishops haue displaced, let them name their own selues: but his meaning is, so long as they broch their owne fancies of their Church-gouernment to the people seditiously, reuile and traduce the persons of Church-gouernors vniustly, inueigh against our publike Lyturgie, the lawes, or­ders, and rites of this Church ragingly, breake all orders, and the precious bond of peace and vnitie schismatically and wickedly, so long they are blamelesse, and not to be displaced. Then turne the case the other waies: imagine your Discipline were vp, and a foote, and I a poore minister of that Church, and that I wil not obserue the order of praying, preaching, ministring of Sacra­mentes, and marrying, prescribed vnto all ministers by the Sy­node, (but in steede of it) eyther that which I doe nowe vse, or any other cleane differing deuised by my selfe: I will likewise inueigh against the iniustice and tyrannie of your Eldershippes and Synodes, and of them who assemble there: I will confute that kinde of gouernment which my selfe haue subscribed vn­to, and condemne it as a tumultuous popularitie, a newe ficti­on of mans brayne, a multiplied popedome, hauing neither rea­son, practise, nor commaundement for it: and yet otherwayes (I hope) you shall not distaine me for life, or vnsound doctrine: shal In euerthelesse bee accounted blamelesse, and not bee displa­ced [Page 191]by you? Nay, will you rest in displacing? I holde that I e­scape well if I escape with banishment, and so saue my life, as I knowe to haue beene practised vpon lesse occasions then these, by your Eldershippes. You will say, you haue good groundes to inueigh against ours, and that we may not doe so against yours, because it is holy, pure, reformed Discipline and proceeding: then here ought to bee the issue, and not to be offended that you are displaced as disturbers of the peace of the Church. For I tell you we thinke no lesse euill of your gouernment then you speake of ours: Qui hominem legibus belluam, qui legem hominibus deum prae­ponit, saith Aristotle 3. Polit. And therefore in that all your go­uernment is grounded vpon Law-will-I, and chested vp Pope­like in your Elders brestes to doe as shall like them best, we holde it very tyrannie, and as ill as Antichristian gouerne­ment.

And thus I retort your reason:

Whosoeuer be not blamelesse may bee displaced: Those who breake the peace of the Church, and charitie, (as afore) are not blameles, Ergo, they may be displaced. And againe: They whose calling to the ministerie is not from heauen, nor outwardly law­full by meanes of men, they may be displaced: Your calling to the ministerie in this Church of England is such, as being vnlaw­ful and Antichristian, (as you say:) Ergo, (by your owne rules) you may be displaced, for you were neuer well placed, and as you ought to haue beene: Ex ore tuo teipsum iudico serue ne­quam.

The 2. Demonstration.

Men carefull to discharge their dueties without impietie cannot be displa­ced:Demonstra­tion. Such are these ministers. Ergo,

Here is a goodlie praise and applauding to themselues:Remon­strance. they haue bin careful indeede to discharge that charge, that their pro­uinciall hath laid vpon them to trouble the Church.

Your Maior is not necessarily true: for a man may be care­full to doe his duetie, and yet by preposterous zeale be caried to heresie and schisme.

The 3. Demonstration.

To depriue Gods people of spirituall comfort is wickednesse:Demonstra­tion. To put to si­lence such ministers, is to depriue. Ergo,

To put to silence such,Remon­strance. is to stoppe the mouthes of the Praeci­sion now, as of the concision of olde: of whom S. Augustine spea­keth super 34. Psal. quare in praecisione vultis magnificare nomen Domini? The Maior here is as the other next afore: I haue kno­wen a most lewde wretch, who preached so commendably that the people tooke maruellous comfort to heare him, and to be in­structed by him: yet the most partiall of your Elderships would not haue to lerated him in the ministery.

The 4. Demonstration.

That which is scandalous, is an horrible sinne:Demonstra­tion. To depriue the people is scandalous. Ergo,

To the Minor.

It is scandall taken and not giuen.Remon­strance.

The people had better learne nothing, then learne the sinne of disobedience. These reasons are as much, as if a man shoulde affirme, none could preach well but Schismatikes: Scilicet.

The 5. Demonstration.

They whose labours God blesseth,Demonstr. cannot be displaced without impietie: such are the ministers. Ergo,

God doth blesse your such labours, no more then Iudas his la­bours,Remon­strance. nor so much, who for a while preached the Gospell: yet may a bad man cast good seede into the grounde. Doe as they say, not as they doe, saith Christ.

The 6. Demonstration.

That which giueth the enemies cause to reioyce, is an offence: To displace the ministers,Demon­stration. giueth the enemie, &c. Ergo,

If any reioyce in euill, let them answere for it themselues. [...] is a fault:Remon­strance. but Bishops doe their dueties to displace schis­matikes: that is but per accidens, that it is to the reioycing of the enemie: and they will not let to reioyce, if an adulterous mini­ster also be displaced, being gladde that they may say such be a­mong vs.

The 7. Demonstration.

That which causeth the doers to be esteemed enemies to the Gospel, is an heynous sinne:Demonstra­tion. such is the silencing of those. Ergo,

I answere with that sentence of Tully: Non est tanta potest as in stultorum suffragijs. Remon­strance. There is no such estimate, or reade in a fooles voyce, or suffragie: They are not worthie to rule in the Church, that tender more what the ill aduised say of them, then they doe [Page 193]the peace of Christes body the Church.

The 8. Demonstration.

That which letteth wickednesse to come in, must needes be a sinne:Demonstra­tion. To dis­place the ministers doth so. Ergo,

It followeth not vpon euery sectarie ministers displacing:Remonstran.

This is a partiall Syllogisme, and in fauour of themselues: No Sir, I doubt not but better come in their places, if they may haue like maintenance.

The 9. Demonstration.

That which interrupteth the course of the Gospell without warrant from Gods Lawe, or lawe of the land, is a sinne: But to displace is so. Ergo, Demonstra.

It is likely this man hath beene conuented for his schisme,Remon­strance. and turbulencie of spirite, and woulde not bee interrupted without a warrant from heauen, or the lawe of the lande: there is statute lawe, and Canon lawe authorized by statute, to plucke vp such bryers and thornes of these Malcontents out from amiddest the land, and no daunger to interrupt thereby the course of the Go­spel: most of them preach nothing but inuectiues against things established. Is this to preach the Gospel of peace?

The seuenteenth Chapter.

Assertion.

ADmonition belongeth to the Eldership.Demonstra­tion.

The 1. Demonstration.

  • 1 That which priuate men are commanded to seek vn­to being offended, for redresse of the offence. Matth. 18.15. that is a necessary and ordinarie way for those who publikely offend.
  • 2 That which is more auaileable to repentance.
  • 3 That which maketh men more afraide to offend.
  • 4 That which hath a greater promise to doe good.
  • 5 That without which all dueties of charitie cannot be exercised toward sinners.
  • 6 That which bridleth outragious sinnes.

But such is the admonition of those, who carry the name of the Church, vz. the Eldership. Ergo, admonition longeth to them.

One Minor serueth right well for all these propositions,Remon­strance.

That the venerable Eldership who carie the Church, and beare it vp as Atlas with his shoulders [Page 194] ‘Caelum humeris tor quet stellis ardentibus aptum.’ Must giue this admonition in publike proclamation.

My answere hereunto is: It is a sacrilegious robbery to giue and appropriate that vnto the Eldership which is proper to the ministers of the Gospel, and such as exercise lawful authoritie in the Church: it maketh as much for Presbiter Iohn, or Iohns El­dershippe, as any of your Elderships in the Church. Besides, I might trauerse the maior Propositions. As for example, Priuate re­conciliation is commanded, and yet no necessarie or ordinarie way to be publikely established in the Church. And if admonition be neces­sary, doeth it hereof follow it must be done, and onely done by suche an Eldership?

The eighteenth Chapter.

Assertion.

SVspension from the Lords supper,Demonstra­tion. or from an office in the Church, must be by the Eldership.

The 1. Demonstration.

Whatsoeuer is enioyned as a duetie to bee done by e­uery Christian man, if he leaue it vndone, hee is to bee compelled by the gouernour of the Church, Luke 14.17.23. But if a mans brother haue anie thing against him, Matth. 5.24. he is to be compelled to leaue his gift: Ergo, Separation from the Lords supper is warranted by the worde.

This Demonstration is neither compound,Remon­strance. nor simple Syllo­gisme, nor in any moode and figure, nor proueth the Assertion any way: for must it needes follow, he must be suspended: Ergo, by the Eldership. Then thus: The people must haue Sacraments ministred and preaching: ergo, the Eldershippe must doe it. If you say, it is disposed according to any moode and figure, why is there more in the conclusion then in the premisses? or shewe in which 1, 2, or 3. figure you haue concluded, that separation by the eldership is warrantable by the word.

If you say the Syllogisme is hypotheticall, why doe you assume the consequent to conclude the antecedent, which is a Paralo­gisme? or in very deed assuming the consequent, conclude nothing to the purpose, or a new and strange thing: Ergo, separation from the supper of the Lorde is to be done by the Eldership, or is war­ranted [Page 195]by the worde. In those places of Luke they were compel­led to come in to the supper, yea, the halte, the lame, &c. And can you hereof proue that such as are lame in soule must be suspen­ded and kept from the Supper? If you haue no better reasons then this for suspension, it wilbe lamely proued to be of vse in the Church: the parable rather maketh against it. As for the rea­son it selfe, I haue liued long, and yet neuer heard such an one made, except it were in mockery.

The 2. Demonstration.

If the commandement, Giue not holy thinges to dogges, Demonstra­tion. is neyther properly vnderstoode of infidels, nor excommunicate men, then is it vnderstoode for separation of the vnwoorthie: But the first is true, for the Iewes knewe that holy things belonged not to such: and the commaundement had beene needlesse. Ergo, Suspension is warranted.

To the Antecedent and the sequele.

Why not as properly to be vnderstood of them,Remon­strance. sith it is allego­rically to be vnderstood of whomsoeuer? We denie not the mat­ter, but this reason doth simply proue it: Looke Erastus, and your selues will mislike it. If the Iewes knew that this commaunde­ment belonged not to infidels, nor to excommunicate persons, they knewe more then was true: for if infidels and persons ex­communicate be not dogges from whom holy thinges must bee kept, then much lesse are such as doe not so deepely offende, to be accounted suche dogges as from whome holie things should be kept.

The 3. Demonstration.

If some deserue excommunication, and some Suspension, Demonstra. then is this course good: But some doe, &c. Ergo.

The course is good, if it be helde by them that indeede haue authoritie and iudgement in the Church: if by the Eldership,Remon­strance. it is to be withheld.

The 4. Demonstration.

The course prescribed in the shadow must be in the bodie,Demonstra­tion. in respect of sub­stance in the spiritual cleansing for corporall vncleannes they were separa­ted. Ergo: for some sinnes nowe.

The Argument holdeth not from the ceremony to the Gospel.Remonstran.

The Eldership did not separate vnder the lawe, ergo, Eldership not vnder the gospel: for it was the priests vnder the law that had iudgemēt, & directiō of such clensings: but your selues make not [Page 196]your Elders, to answere vnto Priests, but eyther vnto Leuites, or I know not what gouernours vnder the lawe.

The 5. Demonstration.

The Church cannot suffer a man vehemently suspected to continue in a publike function:Demon­stration. But the church cannot displace such a man at the first Ergo, he must be separated for a time.

Were it not for the ambiguitie of the worde Church, Remon­strance. which with you is alwayes the Church Aldermen: all this may bee graunted.

The 6. Demonstration.

That which was commanded to be done to the Priest,Demonstrat. being a Leaper, must be done to the Church officer, being an offender: But the one was to bee se­parated. Ergo, the other.

Though it may be lawful to make proportionable arguments from the lawe to the Gospel:Remon­strance. you may not conclude Identitatem, the one by the other, for that is Iudaisme. And by this reason you woulde make your Elderships to answere to the Priest vnder the lawe: they are as gladius Delphicus, they serue to all vses, and an­swere to all types and figures of the olde Testament.

For the profitable vse of Suspension

  • 1 That which keepeth the godlie in obedience is profitable.
    Demon­stration.
  • 2 That which remoueth apparance of sinne.
  • 3 That which declareth to the worlde, that the Church of God is careful to practise.
  • 4 That which exerciseth the Church in actions of religion.
  • 5 That which is a speciall meanes to procure the Lord in mercie to con­tinue his worde vnto his Church, that is profitable for the same. Such is Se­paration. Ergo,

You might haue bounde these fiue Demonstrations in a bun­dle, and throwne them all away.Remon­strance.

The question is not whether the Church in discretion may separate and suspende: but whether your fashion el­dership may separate or suspende: not of our rightfull vse, but of your abuse. The best is, such stuffe standeth you in little charges.

The nineteenth Chapter.

Assertion.

EXcommunication may not bee done but vpon great and weightie occasions.Demon­stration.

2 It may not be done by any one man, but by the Eldership, the whole Church consenting thereunto.

The first Assertion needeth no demonstra­tion:Remon­strance. but because the Demonstrator saith our church doth excōmunicate for a sixpenie mat­ter, I answere, be it for an halfepeny in the ve­ry original, yet it is not for that but for the contumacie, aggraua­ting the fault & iniustice: as a man for default of answering (per­haps afalse plea) may haue an attachment, or proclamation of re­belliō or outlawry come out against him. Quo minor res, eo maior contumacia. I would aske this question: if a man in their Church will not (being of good abilitie) giue to the poore or to the mini­ster by any meanes, and yet will thrust in among them, will they not for this contumacie at last excommunicate him?

1. Demon. for the first Assertion.

That which Christ hath ordeyned for the last remedie against sinne,Demon­stration. may not be vsed but vpon extremitie: so is excommunication. 18. Math. 15. Ergo.

This is no issue betweene vs and you:Remon­strance. we say wilfull disobedi­ence is greatest sinne. If a man (doe what you can) will not ap­peare, though (perhaps) if he did, he be guiltlesse, shall he not at last be excommunicate? The Lawyers call it vltimum in iurisdi­ctione non facere.

The 2. Demonstration.

That which giueth a man ouer to Sathan, may not be vsed but in great ex­tremitie:Demon­stration. but excommunication so doth. 1. Cor. 5.5. Ergo.

To the Minor.

[...],Remon­strance. To deliuer one to Sathan for the destruction of the flesh, was but a temporarie chastisement and of extraordinarie power, as is very probable: though I doubt not but he which claue non errante is excommunicated and cutte from the Church, is deepely in the power of Sathan.

The 3. Demonstration.

That which a man will doe in cutting off his hand, that must be done in excommunication:Demon­stration. but a man will not doe that but in extremitie. Ergo.

Yet it is to bee feared that if excommunication were in some of your handes,Remon­strance. it woulde be alwayes drawing against meane faultes, if the persons did not like you: I knowe your disposition where I dwell.

The 4. Demonstration.

That which is contrary to naturall affection, and worketh the trembling of the very heart,Demonstra­tion. may not be done but in extremitie: So is excommunication. Ergo.

Why are not you afraid in your owne cause, sith many of your crue stand excommunicate,Remon­strance. and yet like prophane Esau or Luci­an the dogge, make a ieste of it? if you esteeme it not because Bishops doe inflict it, we will and may vpon better ground con­temne yours that lay elders determine, whensoeuer you set vp shoppe.

The 2. Assertion of the Demonstration.

Excommunication must be done by the Elders,Demonstra­tion. not by one man.

The 1. Demonstration.

That which Christ commaunded to bee done by the Church, may not be done by one man: but Christ commaunded so 18. Mat. 15. Ergo.

What force is in your Maior? Remon­strance. The Church must pray for prin­ces, Ergo no one man may: Christ commaunded at one time the Apostles to preach, Ergo all must preach together, and no one of them.

To the Minor.

This is most absurde: for then hee commaunded to be done and ouerdone, that is both done and vndone, viz. both by the Presbyterie, and then by the whole Congregation, for so you teache. If in those wordes, Tell the Church, the Church is the Eldership, then the rest of the Congregation hath not any war­rant to giue consent or to deale in it, which else-where you re­quire. For when the Church that Christ committed it vnto, haue once determined the matter, what haue those to doe further that were not meant nor thought of by him? And if hee that tels the Eldershippe any thing, telles it to the Church, what neede any [Page 199]moe bee acquainted with that belonges not to them? For if they be of the Church, they knowe it already: Et qui certus est, amplius non debet certiorari: if they be not, then let them pacifie themselues: but if the whole Congregation be theremeant, then hath not the Eldershippe therein authoritie giuen by that place. And if the Church be the Eldershippe, then the one is the other: idem numero conuertuntur: so that he that is not of the Eldership is none of the Church. To auoide these absurdities, they will say the Eldershippe is called the Church, because it hath herein the authoritie of the Church: This is strange. Shall they bee the Church it selfe, that haue herein the Churches autho­ritie? then he is a king that in some thing hath the kings autho­ritie. Well let it goe: Those that with vs doe excommunicate haue the Churches authoritie also: and let them shewe a rea­son out of the worde of God, why the Church may not giue her authoritie to one, aswell as to many? If this bee one of your essentiall pointes, that the Church cannot giue it to one: for shame finde some Scripture for it. If you say that the Church being a collectiue must needes bee more then one: true, but yet one or a fewe may haue the autho­ritie of many committed to them, as one man may bee Syn­dic or Legate for a whole common weale. If it cannot bee represented but by a number, then two may serue: else shewe by howe many, and both of these by Scripture: or con­fesse your gouernement not to be grounded on Scripture. And when such authoritie is giuen to many, shew that any thing may bee done, except euery of them agree: for if you say as you pra­ctise, that the most voyces ouercome the fewer: shewe Scripture for that, and howe the odde voyce (that makes the greater num­ber) hath such a power, as to make that to bee the determina­tion of the Church, which otherwise were not so. And if in such case, one odde voice (perhaps of a very odde fellowe) may haue such force, why may not a Byshops voyce bee of as great force in this matter, where the Church committes it to him? That by this place the power generall of excommunication is not established, may thus appeare. For if this be the very warrant and cōmission that it hath, then may none excōmunication pro­ceede in any other matter then vpon priuate offences originally [Page 200]and onely by the same degrees that there bee propounded: otherwise the commission were violated. That an Eldershippe, (as is fancied) shoulde haue that power here giuen to them, can­not be entended: for if Christ had ordeyned them afore this time, then their authorities whatsoeuer, were (no doubt) giuen with­all vnto them: but wee reade no such thing. The pollicie of the Iewish Synagogue had still his continuance, and Christ had not yet setled the Church which hee was in gathering. That by these wordes at this time it was erected, it coulde not be: for neither were the officers afore ordeyned of which it consisteth, viz. of Elderly doctor, and Pastor: vndoctorly and vnpastorally Elder, and of deacons: nor yet were they here ordeyned. For the Apostles could neuer out of this single worde [...] the Church haue pic­ked this great varietie and distinction of officers, and their au­thoritie which they had neuer heard of afore. But Christ speaketh hereof to them as of a thing knowen, whereunto in like case re­sort might bee had. But if it were here appointed consisting of Christ and his Apostles, then was Christes headshippe of the Church taken from him, and hee ranged with his Apostles as his collegues in the Eldershippe. Then also must they either say that Christ was not perpetuall president in such eldership, but as it fell to his lotte or choise (as they now practise in Synodes and confe­rence, albeit the Pastor in their Elderships be the President per­petuall) or they must haue a perpetuall president in all their Sy­nodicall assemblies to be conformable to this, being the best and first. It will also hereof followe, if your Elders mind to be succes­sors of the Apostles in an eldership here, they must be ministers of the worde and Sacraments, as the Apostles and all the first El­ders were. Then also cannot your Eldership haue any other parts of authoritie then Christ at this their institution here bestowed vpon them, as namely you must abandon ordinations, depositions, and other gouernment. Lastly, if he ment to erect an office or au­thoritie that afore was not, the wordes would haue bene praecep­tiue and dispositiue for such purpose, not imperatiue, commaun­ding onely a course to be holden before such a tribunall, as was not afore erected or heard of: for it woulde thus or in some like forme haue beene conceiued: let such and such Church gouer­nours bee erected, to whome you may alwayes tell it.

If therefore to auoyde these inconueniences it wilbe said, that he made allusion to the Iewish Sanhedrim or College of 72. in vse with them, and wel knowen to them, with insinuation, that as the Iewes had, so hee would haue established in his Church, which should after be gathered of the Iewes and Gentiles: Besides that, it is likely the name of Sanhedrim would haue bene retained, ra­ther then changed for a name of so strange signification (as to vnderstand an Eldership by this word Church) especially Christ hauing before in an other matter vsed the very worde [...]:Matth. 5. I must then also tell you, that the insinuation wrapt vp in one single worde, is ouer secret and mysticall for a man to builde his faith and conscience vpon, for such a solemne, perpetual, and ne­cessary Cōsistories establishing, that is indued with so manifold and large authorities. But if it were meant that the Samplar (a thing well knowen) should be followed wholy, then is the Eldership quite ouerthrowen. For not onely the Sanhedrim had (as is no­torious) but this Church whatsoeuer (that is meant in this place) must haue determination of all waightie matters, aswell ciuill as Ecclesiastical. That this Church here must so haue, it is manifest, in that this place containeth a course and processe to be holden with a brother, who shall in any matter scandalize or offende them. But the most offences betwixt man and man growe not vpon matter Ecclesiastical, but vpon matters of this life, meere ci­uill causes. Then by this reckoning (euen vnder a Christian ma­gistrate) must the Eldership haue a set Court for all matters aswel ciuil as Ecclesiasticall, as the Sanhedrim did at Ierusalem, least otherwise the woundes be farre greater then the plaister can co­uer. But this dealing in ciuill matters they seeme to detest in others, howsoeuer vnderhand they will embrace it, or dispense with it in themselues. The Sanhedrim were ordinarie Iudges of the highest Court of that nation, for all politique temporall cau­ses besides Ecclesiastical. There were 72. of it, there was no more such in that land, and it consisted of the high Priest, other Priests, Leuites, and the chiefe and grauest of the people. If therefore they will conforme theirs vnto this, then are parish Elderships abroade, and all Courts of Recorde at Westminster supped vp at once in this one Consistorie of Sanhedrim, and all Ecclesiasticall men shalbe for euer at libertie to meddle with matters ciuil as in [Page 202]their owne right, which were absurde. Besides, the Sanhedrim made lawes, as Iohn 9.22. they directed Commissions foorth, as to Paul in the Actes for attaching and imprisoning, which the patrones of Elderships wil pretend not to like of. They had none ordination, no placing, nor displacing of Priestes or Leuites, nor yet censures of excommunication, for any thing I can yet reade sufficient to satisfie mee. Shall then the Eldership haue no such authorities? If it be saide the two former were corruptions, First I woulde haue it prooued: then I answere that Caluine maketh the whole Sanhedrim it selfe but a corruption of that state. Lastly they must graunt either that Christ alluded not vnto it at all, nor made it any Samplar for his Church, or else made it a perfect sam­plar entierly, and alwayes euen vnder a Christian magistrate to be followed: for we finde none exceptions in Scripture. Howe then it may be followed in some part, and despised in an other, let the first deuisers discusse.

The 2. Demonstration.

That which S. Paul enioyned the Church to do when they came together, may not be done by one man:Demonstrat. But he commaunded them to excommunicate the incestuous person. Ergo.

There is an aequiuocation in the worde Doe in the Maior, and it is false,Remon­strance. as is shewed: But I distinguish vpon the Minor. Paul commaunded them onely to denounce and publish, not to ex­communicate. The wordes are [...]. I as absent in bo­die but present in spirit, haue alreadie decreed and iudged, as if I were present in the Name of our Lorde Iesus Christ, &c. from whom this braunch of his authoritie is deriued. Ius excommunicandi, the right of excommunication was in himselfe: Howbeit the words, [...], You being congregated or assembled together, and my spirit with the power, &c. argueth the presence of the people, a full Congrega­tion to denounce an excommunication, not the right or interest to excommunicate in all. As for the presence of the people, it is required now at denunciation. But what, were all the people here of the Presbyterie? or had they none such? For here all are men­tioned to whom he writ. How doeth this prooue the Eldership to haue such power, or to be necessarie in euery Church, if they had none Eldership?

The 3. Demonstration.

That which hath neede of greatest aduise and authoritie,Demonstrat. is not to be done by one man: But so is excommunication. Ergo.

To the Maior.

Many instances may be framed to this: Preaching of the Go­spel,Remon­strance. prophecying, 1. Corinth. 14. ministration of Baptisme and the Lords supper, supreme authoritie and iudgement of a King, and many other matters of great importance, cannot be done but by one man at one time.

To the Minor.

Excommunication is not greater then absolution, which is al­so to be done by one man. To saue a soule is greater then to de­stroy a soule, and yet by the preaching of Peter being one man, were added vnto the Church three thousand soules. The worke of our redemption is but one mans worke, & the greatest worke. You haue no skill of the olde rule nullum proprium datur in gradu superlatiuo. And may not one mans aduise directed by lawe,5. Topic. be more sounde then an hundreth running on head, and but other­wise vnlearned?

The 4. Demonstration.

They must excommunicate who are to deale in other parts of discipline:Demonstrat. but the other are not exercised by one. Ergo neither this.

This is obscurum per obscurius: or to begge that which is in question still. This defaceth themselues:Remon­strance. for Deacons deale in other parts of their discipline, and yet being discipliners are none of the Eldership. And I neuer heard afore they might excommu­nicate. Cathechizing, preaching, teaching, publicke praying, bap­tizing, and celebrating the Supper, blessing of marriages, &c. are parts of the Discipline, yet exercised by the doctor alone, or pa­stour alone.

To the Minor.

There is none of these offices which are mainteinable in our Church, but may be executed by one, if it shall seeme best for the commoditie and seruice of the Church.

The 5. Demonstration.

As it was amongst the Iewes, so it must bee in the Church for euer,Demonstrat. as it appeareth by this: for it is translated from them to vs: as the Greeke worde [...] being by corrupt imitation called Sanhedrim [Page 204]by the Rabbynes doeth import, and had nothing ceremoniall in it: But it was executed by the Church amongst them, and not by one, Iohn 9.22. Ergo the Church is to excommunicate and not one man.

Here the Demonstrator leaueth off his Christianitie, and will become a Iewe, Remon­strance. and erect the Iewish policie of gouerning the Church.

To the Maior.

By the Iewes you may meane either the Iewish Synagogue, or the Apostles and disciples in Iewrie: The later you cannot meane, for the practise of their Religion, and the outward profession was not authorized. If you meane the former, say plainely you meane Sanhedrim or Synagoga: if Sanhedrim, that either as politicall onely, or political and Ecclesiastical together: and that againe ei­ther as the first institution supposed by some, or as the depraua­tion was at the comming of Christ, for what was that else but a mixt and compound Presbyterie, as in Christs time? And then Christ should send vs to the Synagogue, which Caluin liketh not, and wee should require a gift and an altar, as it is Matth. 5.24. v. So this is the greatest improbabilitie in the worlde, viz. that as it was amongst the olde or latest Iewes, so it must bee in Christs Church. Now vnto the reason of the Maior: That it is transla­ted vnto vs from them, &c. You must proue the translation, and shewe in one demonstration, time, place, &c, or any other cir­cumstance, to euince it or prooue the erection or ordination of this discipline in steade of that. Otherwise to say there was an al­lusion vnto that, or a respectiue looking of Christ vpon that, is but a meere collusion with Gods trueth. To say [...] which was a session of 72. with the prince, &c, was the Image of your imagi­ned Presbyterie, especially a corruption, and not to be founde in Scripture but in the Thalmud, is to carie away the matter with a bolde forehead, and impudent outfacing. This I haue also spo­ken vnto afore in this Chapter.

To the Minor.

This is not ad idem: For it is one thing [...], another thing with vs to be excommunicate: as for the place of Iohn 9. it deciphreth not whether one or many had authoritie to cast out of the Synagogue, but that a decree was so made that he should be cast out, not telling how, or by how many it was to be executed.

Finally, in saying the Sanhedrim had nothing ceremoniall, belike it had the more iudiciall or morall: whether it were the one or other, it is questionlesse howe it was a corruption of a better thing, but caried not the resemblance of the thing which you would haue, as is sufficiently afore shewed. If Iudicial, we are no Iewes, and therefore not tied to it: if Morall, then shew the Com­mandement, and retaine it not by peece meele, but either wholy, or if but in part, say you breake therein the Morall lawe of God.

The 6. Allegation or Demonstration.

Cyprian lib. 3. ep. 10. would doe nothing in his charge without counsel of El­ders,Demonstrat. and consent of people.

His meaning is: he would do nothing, me a priuatim sententia, Remon­strance. by any domesticall determinations, but with the priuitie and counsell and consent of the cleargie: that is, but in consistorie openly: or which was consulted and concluded vpon in Synode publickely before, so that nothing should be preiudiciall. But these were Ministers that assisted him a Bishop.

The 7. Demonstration, or Allegation.

The Elders and other officers haue power to absolue as wel as the Bishops.Demonstrat. Cypr. epist. 14. Remon­strance. Lib. 3. epist. 14.

You quote not the booke: as for the place, it maketh against the presumption of your Elders or any pastoral Elders, who gaue ius communicationis without the leaue of the Bishop, as certaine then did. As for the wordes manus impositionem Episcopi & cleri, it strengtheneth the hande of authoritie in a Bishop, who is perpe­tual President of his clergie.

The 8. Allegation or Demonstration.

For asmuch as absolution longeth vnto all, I dare not doe it.Demonstrat. Idem epist. 19. Remon­strance.

Cyprian saith, Praeiudicare ego & solum mihi rem communem ven­dicare non audeo. In case the absolution of certaine did concerne many as wel as himselfe, he would not doe that to restore the of­fenders to their state.

The 9. Allegation or Demonstration.

If there be any that hath done such a fault that is to be put away from par­taking prayer of the Church, &c.Demonstrat. Tertul. apolog. cap. 39. there doe beare rule certaine approoued Elders of the Church.

The wordes, Summum futuri iudicij praeiudicium est, Remon­strance. si quis ita deliquerit vt à communicatione orationis & conuentus, & omnis [Page 206]sancti commercij relegetur: praesident probati quique seniores honorem istum non pretio sed testimonio adepti. The wordes following giue not the censure of excommunication to these Elders or arbiters any time, much lesse perpetually, if at that time of persecution they had a censure ouer maners. But let it be prooued that they were not Ministers of the worde and Sacraments, but meere annual officers, and without maintenance of the Church, as yours are.

The 10. Allegation, or Demonstration.Demonstrat.

It helpeth much to make the partie ashamed, that he be excommnnicate by the whole Church:Augustin lib. 3. contra. epistol. Parmen. the Donat. as also in his bookes of Baptisme against Donatists often.

Tunc timore percutitur & pudore sanatur, cum ab vniuersa Ec­clesia anathematizatum se cernens, Remon­strance. so are the wordes: when the whole Church shall expell and blame him by their iudgement also, as the magistrate by his owne censure.

The 11. Allegation or Demonstration.

The Elders haue interest in other censures,Demonstrat. Hierom epist. 1. ad Demetriadē. and the Church it selfe in ex­communication.

The wordes are, We speake not of all, but of such as sometimes the Church it selfe blameth: Remon­strance. whom sometime it casts away, and against whome the censure of Bishops & Presbyterorum viz. of Ministers is sharpe. Here is no speciall mention of excommunication nor in­terest of any vnto it, much lesse the interest of lay Elders. Wee graunt that Bishops had the assistance of Ministers about them, both in censures and other matters and so may haue: but this ar­gueth not your Elderships interest, nor that a Bishop alone may not doe it, where the order of the whole Church hath so recei­ued it.

The 12. Demonstration, or Allegation.Demonstrat. Bucer de reg. Christ. li. 1. ca. 9.

Paul accuseth the Corinthians, because the whole Church had not excom­municate the incestuous person.

The words are,Remon­strance. Quod non incestum illum consortio suo eiecissent: Because the Corinthians were swollen, and had kept companie with such an incestuous person. But if the whole Church shoulde doe it, then there needes none Eldership, neither is this their au­thoritie: otherwise the Church might not vsurpe it from them. And if it be the whole Churches, the Eldership may not preiu­dicate [Page 207]them by their determinations aforehand: For if they disa­gree, whether shall stand in force?

The 13. Allegation or Demonstration.Demonstrat. P. Mart. 1. cor. 5.

The Elders had the gouernment in excommunication.

P. Martyr saith, there were two sorts of Elders:Remon­strance. the one which did teach and minister the Sacraments, and did gouerne with the Bishops: which Elders we now haue, who exercise the censure of excommunication as they are called vnto it. As for the second, they were not vnlike our Church wardens or Sidemen, if any such were, which I rather beleeue not.

The 14. Allegation or Demonstration.Demonstrat. Idem ibidem.

It is dangerous to permit to one man.

Hee doeth not say, It is vnlawfull for one to doe it,Remon­strance. neither can it be dangerous in open Consistorie, being directed by lawe when, wherefore, and against whom to doe it: for so it is lesse dangerous, then if many had to doe in it, going onely of head, and without all forme or direction of lawe, as is vsed by your Elderships.

The 15. Allegation, or Demonstration.Demonstrat. Caluin instit. li. 4. c. 11. sect. 6.

It openeth a way to tyrannie, and abrogateth the Ecclesiastical Senate or­deined by Christ.

It is false: For vnder a Christian Prince and pastorall Elders the spirituall iurisdiction is exercised lawfully without tyrannie.Remon­strance. Why bring you not Cartwr. also to proue it? Caluin was the first in all the world that erected such a Senate.

The 16. Allegation.

The Bishops of themselues if they excommunicate, doe it ambitiously con­trary to the Canons; See Bucer against Gropper, & Ephes. 4. de animi cura, Demonstrat. Idem Instit. 4. li. 12. cap. Sect. 6. and Swinglius in Ecclesiast.

According to your quotation, I finde no such place in Caluin. Remon­strance. When you alledge thus in grosse, you must not looke to be an­swered in particular: As for the Bishops excommunication, it is according to S. Pauls practise, 1. Corinth. 5. where he excommuni­cated Hymeneus and Alexander, 1. Tim. 1. ca.

The 17. Allegation.Demonstrat. See the Abstract pag. 165.

It is forbidden by that filthie puddle the Canon lawe.

That is filthily spoken.Remon­strance. If the Abstracter had vnderstoode the lawes hee bringeth, hee might haue founde an answere where [Page 208]he found the obiection: But is this with our Demonstrator a good argument, The Canon law forbiddeth it, Ergo vnlawful? It so for­biddeth Priestes mariage, and the Communion in both kindes: Are they therefore vnlawfull?

The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

The right of excommunication was in S. Paul and not in the rest.Demonstrat.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

He gaue onely the direction, otherwise if they had not done it, hee had re­mained vnexcommunicate.

If they neuer had denounced and published the excommuni­cation, yet S. Paul had neuerthelesse excommunicated him,Remon­strance with reply. and also the chastisement had proceeded on him. And might they lawfully haue disobeyed the Apostles iudgement, or crossed his determination?

The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

Christ gaue Peter and euery Apostle power to binde and loose, which the interpreters expound excommunication.Demonstrat. Matth. 18.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

That was power of preaching in denouncing Gods iudgement, or pronoun­cing his mercies, not of this action.

It is to be vnderstoode of both:Remon­strance, with reply. the wordes are almost all one Iohn 20.22. v. Matth. 16.20. v. and Matth. 18. Albeit the place includeth that binding and loosing which is by preaching of the worde, it doeth not exclude binding and loosing, which is in ex­communication and absolution by power of the word: See Chry­sostome super Matth. 16. What impudencie is this, to denie that an Apostle had authoritie to excommunicate, who could take life and sight away from an offender? But see howe hee contrarieth himselfe. For if this be not meant of excommunication, why doe you afore bring it to proue that your Eldership is thereby autho­rized to excommunicate?

The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator.

Paul did excommunicate Hymenaeus and Alexander.Demonstrat.

Answere of the Demonstrator.

That is, he was but moderatour of the action, or did pronounce it: euen so Ambrose and the fathers did.

Nay,Remon­strance with reply. hee did it without consent of the Church of Ephesus: for there was some more castigation vnderstoode and emplied in those words, 1. Timoth. 1.20. v. I haue deliuered them to Sathan. [Page 209]The argument doeth hold good, S. Paul 1. Cor. 5. did it, and se­conded the action: Ergo S. Paul was alone a doer in the action. If without Scripture or reason a man may surmise and adde what hee list, and when hee list, then we may also aswell say that the whole senate of Rome consented with him in that action. You finde no consent of Eldershippe or people in Ambroses action requested. Either leaue falsifying and mangling, or giue ouer de­monstrating.

Conclusion.

IF the Demonstrator cannot, neither as yet hath shewen by the light of nature, clearenesse of reason, report of historie, allega­tion of Councell, testimonie of fathers, grounde of lawe, eui­dence of Scripture, nor euer shall be able to proue by necessarie demonstration any exacte platteforme for particularities of go­uernment and externall Church policie that Christ hath prescri­bed: any such foure Tetrarchies of speculatiue Doctor, who must teach and not applie: any such abstractiue Pastor, who must exhort and not teache: any such gouerning Elder, who may neither ex­hort nor teache: any such Deacon, whose deaconshippe is di­stribution to the poore onely, that is, a meere corporall office and no attendance on the ministerie: any such tumultuary electi­on to bee perpetuated by the common people, and their approbation of ministers election: any such prophanitie of ordination and censuring by lay Elders: any such Democracie in the Church, or equalitie of all to be parishe Bishops: any such indefatigable continuall residence of Pa­stors on the place without naturall or legall dispensation for absence vp­on any occasion: any such laicall or mixt Aldermanshippe or Elder­shippe ouer all mens doctrine, manners and matters in the Church: a­ny such censure of admonition, suspension, excommunication, by a com­panie of Church Aldermen, as in their owne right: Then let the Demonstrator blush and be ashamed of so many fabulous narra­tions, absurd collections out of text, brutish reasons so many, and so many falsifications of authorities, childish paralogismes and anapo­dicticall or vndemonstrable demonstrations, and let him bee touched in conscience, and repent of all his slaunderous and calumnious [Page 210]speaches, wherewith hee hath blasphemed this Church of Eng­lande.

And in the name of God let our Church be gouerned still by rules of Gods worde, by such canons of the Apostles and Coun­cels, and prouinciall constitutions and ordinances, subordinate to the worde of God, ratified by our most Christian and vertuous Prince.

Let vs thanke God for our gouernours, Archbishops, Bishops, and superiour ministers and magistrates, whose offices and equi­tie of the offices are in the worde, and continued practise of the Church hitherto: and let the inferiour ministers of what name or calling soeuer, be gouerned by them as lawe prescribeth.

Let the examination be by the Ordinaries and Diocesans of men eligible and ordinable, who knowe more then a thousand vnlearned.

Let the ordination be by the imposition of the Bishops, and other pastorall Elders and ministers hand.

Let the execution of their offices be stil with diligence in prea­ching, exhorting, ministring of the Sacraments, prouiding for the poore, as God giueth abilitie.

Last of all, let the exercise of the whole ecclesiasticall discipline be put in vse by worde of admonition or censure of suspension or excommunication, where neede is, by those able gouernours whom God, the Prince, Synode, and Parliament haue put in trust withall: and let vs holde on one and the same tenour of doctrine and discipline, which (maugre this wooden Demonstrator and T.C. Demost. 1. Olynth. that is tryfling curiositie) we haue held. [...] would all were well for euery mans sake.

Laus Deo.

Errata.

Fault.Correction.
In the Preface pag. 3. line 24. 
equinoctionequiuocation.
P. 5. lin. 12. dele ergo. 
P. 13. li. 6. demonstratedemonstration.
P. 20. li. 6. 20.two.
P. 25. li. 31. SyndictsSyndics.
P. 26. li. 20. anysome one.
ibi. li. 32. ordiancionordination.
P. 27. li. 21. membersnumbers.
P. 33. li. 17. [...] [...]
P. 37. li. 34. reuenge himreueage himselfe.
P. 49. li. 11. demisesdeuises.
Ibi. marg. exampleepistle.
P. 53. li. 21. wholewhile.
P 72. li. 33. breedebredde.
P. 75. li. 6. is theis in the.
P. 77. li. 16. lay ministringlay vnministring.
Ibi. li. 22.6.1.1. and 6.
P. 81. li. 26. lowelower.
Ibi. li. 38. columnedcontinued.
P. 83. li. 32. runne notrunne riot.
P. 87. li. 37. IrenaeusGrinaeus.
P. 109. li. 5. vnliablevnhable.
P. 110. li. 26. sence itsence as it.
P. 128. li. 33. byto
P. 138. li. 18. CicesterChichester.
P. 147. li. 11. preachpractise
P. 164. li. 34. posueritpoesis erit.
P. 166. li. 3.72.72. Euangelists.
P. 167. li. 14. TragelapsusTragelaphus.
P. 176. li. 28. were comewere to come.
P. 177. li. 6. Papists,Popish.
P. 108. li. 22. theythey of the faction
P. 201. li. 26. didhad.

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