A BRIEFE SHEVV Of the false VVares packt together in the named, Apo­logy of the Churche of England.

By Iohn Rastell M. of Art and student of Diuinitie.

Qui nititur Mendacijs, hic pascit ventos, Idem Prob [...] autem ipse sequitur aues volantes.

He that leaneth to lies, feedeth ye winds:
& the selfe same foloweth ye fleyng birdes.

LOVANII, Apud Ioannem Foulerum. Anno D. 1567.

REgi [...]e Maiestatis Priuilegio concessum est Ioanni Rastel­lo Sacrae Theologiae studioso, vt librum inscriptum, A briefe shewe of the false Ware, &c. per Typogra­phum aliquem iuratum imprimere, ac impunè distrahere liceat.

Subsig. Prats.

To the Reader.

THE Church of En­glād (Gentle Reader) was neuer so defended, is nowe, we heare say, it is like to be. For M. Iewel, being the Scribe, or Secreta­rie, and the Superintendentes with others, being coadiutors and gathe­rers: what is it so litle, that they so manie will not find out, or what is it so much, that he alone will not put in? By likelyhoode then, the Booke wil be greate: marie whether it will be so good or no, therein is the que­stion. For triall of which, I haue ga­thered into certaine chapiters, the chiefest maters (as it seemed to me) by which theyr charge might be set before them, and to which, the ac­compt [Page] that they can make, might be considered, whether it wil answer.

The first of which, conteyneth the false and naughtie Argumentes of the englishe Apologie.

The seco [...]d, The Absurdities thereof.

The third, The lyes in tellinge of Stories.

The fourth, the lyes vppon the Auncient Fathers.

The fifth, the lyes vpon councels.

The sixthe, the lyes vppon the Scriptures.

The seuenth, the flatte lyes.

The eighth, the Rhetorical lyes.

The nynth, the Examples of fa­cing a lye.

The 10. the Problematical lyes.

The 11. a blasphemous lye.

[Page]The 12. Contradictions.

The 13. False Interpretations.

These be the sommes of the debte which they are in, to God, and to the worlde: which if they can discharge with arownd and true answer, as it were a good and lauful paimēt, [...]ey may be the better trusted hereafter: but because such Merchantes of this world are ex [...]eeding crafty and false in theyr mysteries, therefore (Gē [...]le Reader) before thou deale with the Grosse [...]Booke, weighe any of these smal peeces whiche I haue gathered for thee, out of the confutation of the Apologie of theyr Church in Englād, made by D. Harding, and consider with the Ballance of Indifferencie, whether this Aunswer of theyrs that is comming, be able to make anie [Page] of them good or no. So shalt thou saue a greate deale of labour, which els the reading and examining of the whole boke would cost thee: and I shal thinke my labour wel bestowed, which doth by any way bring thee a commoditie.

Fare wel.

Liber hic de Mendacijs Apologiae falsò nominatae Ecclesiae Anglicanae lectus est & approbatus à viris anglici idiomatis & Theologiae peritissimis, quibus tutò credēdum esse iudi [...]: quamobrem etiam securè imprimi & euulgari potest.

Cunerus Petri, P. S. Petri Louanij

A BRIEF SHEVV OF CERTAIN NAVGH [...] tye and false Argumentes made in the Apologie of the Church of England.

The first Chapiter.

Truth doth redely find enemies and slaunderers, Apolog. Maior.

We find enemies and slaunderers. Minor.

Ergo we ought to beare it quietly,Concl [...] ­ [...]ionif we be at this day tormēted, only because we teache the truth.

TO shew the faultes of this argu­ment,Confut. p. 6. 7. [...]. 9. by rules of logike, it were an easie mater: but it wold not be so easily vnderstanded of the common Reader. For his sake therefore, leauing the mode and figure of a logical answer, I wil shew the Absurditie thereof, in that it may be made to serue for the Ca­tholiques also, their Aduersaries. For, Truthe dooth redelye finde enemyes and slaunderers: But the Catho­likes at this day, finde enemyes and slaunderers, Ergo they haue the truth. [Page] That the Catholikes haue presently their enemies and slaūderers, it may be proued by the whole Booke of Actes and monu­mēts, by M. Iewels Sermō and Replie, by this very Apologie of the Church of Eng­lād. By al which it apereth, how sharply the Protestants are set, against the Ca­tholikes, and how litle regarde they haue what they write or report of them. Ergo if thei which find enemys haue the truth: wherefore then are so many Catholikes, either in prison within the Realme, ei­ther in hatred of their owne Coūtriemē, out of the Realme? And if the hauing of enemies proueth not, the parties that are hated to be of a good and sincere religion: it cōcludeth nothing for the Protestāts, though they shew themselues to haue e­nemies. Yea it maketh against them, that by likelihod their doctrine should not be good and credible: because they now the Professours of it, haue all the fauoure that may be shewed in Englande. The right forme of this argumēt wold be this.

[Page 2] Truth findeth Enemies:

We haue the truth:

Ergo we find enemies.

But now the second proposition can neuer be proued.

So many thousandes of our brethern 1 haue in these last twenty yeares suffred most painful tormentes:Apolog.

Princes desirous to restarine the Gos­pel 2 haue nothing preuailed:

The whole world now doth begyn to 3 open their eyes to beholde the light:

Ergo our cause already is sufficiently declared and defended.

Death for a religion doth not make a Martyr,Confut. .13. to the first. As in exāple of Seruetꝰ the Ar­rian, whom Caluin procured to be burned at Geneua▪ and of Ioan of Kent that filth. And the Anabaptists, which to this day suffer death willingly.

So they do make lawes against theues,to the se­cond. and yet the gallowes are dayly occupied. So do weeds arise and grow, be the groūd or gardē neuer so wel tilled. Yet neither theues nor weeds mai crake of it, that not [Page] withstāding the lawes or diligēce of mē, thei cōtinue stil ād maintein their race.

The more like it is, that Antichrist is at hand. For cōcerning the Gospel of Christ, it doth not begyn now to be knowen: but euery day more and more it shuld wax more obscure toward thend of the world.

This Gospel therefore, which, to be­holde, the whole worlde now doth begyn to open their eyes, cūmeth so late, that we must looke now for the wic­ked man to be reueled,2. The [...]. 2. and Charitie to wax cold, and faith not to be foūd perchaunce vpon the earth:Math. 24 Luc. 18. and not to haue any increase of faith, hope or Charity, to be brought into the world.

Oure religion is come at lenght euen to Kinges courtes and palaces:Apolo­gie.Ergo God him selfe doth strongly fight in our quarel.

It came not thither,Confut. 15. before it was sent for. Neyther do you properly turne princes to your Religion, but Princes turne all your preachinges, and procedinges, [Page 3] to serue their affections. So was Peter Martir at his first cūming to England a Lutheran only, but ꝑceiuing afterwards, the Superiour powers to fansie an other way, he folowed also them with all the wit he had, and became an open Zuīgli­an. Again, you do wel to resort to Prīces palacies for argument, because in deede thence is your cheefest ayde and succour.

Let the Scripture (saith S. Ambrose) be asked the question,Apolo.let the apostles be asked, let the Prophetes be asked.

Ergo we must vse no other force, but only Scriptures.

It foloweth not:Confu [...] ­tion. 3. for after al them, I may aske also, what S. Ambrose himselfe thinketh vpon the Scripture, Apostle, or Prophete. And wher as by many means, one in order aboue an other, a way is prepared to any knowledge, the vsing of the chiefest, must not exclude al the in­feriour frō their places. Again, why hath M. Iewel stuffed his Reply with so many allegatiōs of phrases of doctours: and left [Page] it so void of expresse Scripture, if no o­ther force, but of scriptures, is to be vsed?

1 Christ is euer present,Apolog.to assist his Churche.

2 Christ nedeth not any man, to sup­ply his roome.

3 No one mortal creature is able to cō ­prehēd in his mind al ye parts of ye world.

Ergo there neither is, neither can be any one man, which may haue the whole superioritie in the Church.

He is present in deede by his power,Conf. 45. To the firste. and truth, and grace: but to the external eye he is not presēt, and sensible men re­quire a sensible Gouernour.

Christ nedeth nothing,To the. 2. yet for because of his wisdom ād mercy, he cōmunicateh his Office ād Glory with men, ād doth not al thīgs īmediatly by himself: although he be of suche almightines, that he nedeth no helpe.

It is as false as God is true.To the 3. For in dede the powers of the mind (as the wil, memory, ād vnderstāding) are by nature of that making and capacitie, that nothing vn­der [Page 4] God himselfe can fully replenishe it. Yet if one man alone were not hable by himself to cōprehende in his mind al the parts of the world, neuerthelesse by his of­ficers he may doe it, though the whole were as bigge againe as it is.

Last of al, to stoppe your mouthes with feare, whom reason doth not persuade ye may, by these argumēts, pluck the Croune frō the heads of al Kings ād Princes. For Gods prouidēce (you may say) is ouer the whole world. And he nedeth no helper, And no Prince is hable to cōprehend in his mynd al parts of his Dominion, how litle so euer it be.

The Bishop of Rome doth not his duty,Apolo.as he ought to doe. Ergo, we saye he ought not once to be called a Bishop, or so much as an elder.

The persō and the office which any ꝑson beareth are distinct things:Confut [...] ­tion. 5 [...]. And the vo­catiō of Bisshop or King is to be honor [...]d, though the cōditiōs of thē shuld be cōtēp­tible for their lust and idlenes. Scruāts [Page] are cōmaūded to obey their masters, not only whē they be good ād modest,1 Pet. 2. but also if they be froward. And further, what are you that iudge, I wil not say, an other mās seruāt, but your own lauful head and Bishope? And if yow refuse his Autho­ritie for your part: why iudge you yet the Chiefe Bisshope of the Catholikes? To be short, if it shalbe considered, how grea­uous the Heretikes, and Turkes, ād vnru­ly Christians, are to the Church of Christ, and what hath ben done by Popes euen in our dayes, for calling of a general Coū ­cel, and for defence of Christendō against the Infidels, and for suppressing of euyll maners: ther wilbe litle occasion left, to reproue the Pope for not doing his duty.

A wonderfull vncleanenesse of life & maners hath followed vppon the lawe,Apolog.which commaūded pristes to liue single. Ergo mariage is holy & honorable in all sorts & stats of persōs, & it was no good lawe which did forbid priestes to mary.

This disproueth not the lawe,Coufnta­tion 78. but it betraieth the foule and corrupt inclina­tions [Page 5] of them, for whome the lawe was made. Without the Lawe, synne was dead (sayeth the Apostle) And I had not knowen (sayeth he) what concupis­cence had bene,Rom. 7. except the law had sayd, thou shalt not lust. So is it, in the actes of parlament, which are wisely and pro­fitably made for taking away the excesse and costlynes of apparel. For, Thou shalt weare no sylke (sayth the lawe) except thou mayst spēd yerely by office or landes a certayne Somme. And by this, one wolde thinke, that poore seruing men shoulde not spende so much in their ap­parel, as before they did. Lesse robbing then and filching must folowe, and the common welth shall be quiet and rich. But the euent declareth, that it is besto­wed now vpon the making of the cote, that which is diminisshed in the sylke that shoulde go to the cote. And super­fluities are not diminished, but increa­sed, and the mater of them is not taken away, but the forme is altered. Doe not [Page] therfore put any fault in an holy or goo [...] law, if sinne▪ by occasion therof should en [...]crease and multiply: but reproueth the coneupiscence and lust of them, which call not for the grace of God, that they may be able to kepe the good law.

We affirme,Apologthat Christ doth truely & presently geue his owne selfe in his Sa­cramentes. Ergo we meane not to abase the Lordes supper.

This doth not folow.Con [...]ut. 1 [...]9. For whereas the mind of Christ is, that in the open house which he kepeth, his owne pretious body should be geuē vnder form of bread, and that so freely and bountifully, that come who would, either frind or foe, he would not chāge his word and gift for that ma­ter (although he wold haue a saying vn­to thē, that by their vnworthy receiuing did frustrat his gratious benefit) he that in this case saith, that Christ geueth hī self truly, really▪ substātially▪ yea bodily ād corporally vnto thē that do receaue him by faith ād charity, he speketh vndoutedly [Page 6] a great and a true word. But if he adde, that to thē that haue no faith ād charity he doth not geaue his true and real body, he abuseth the excellēcy and worthines of the ꝓuision that is made. For the gift were not certain, ād perfit, ād cōsisting of the geuers own power only ād goodnes, if the faith of the receauer should either make it, or marr it. You therfore that cā speake excellētly ād substātially of the sa­cramēt, do for al that abase Christs boūte­fulnes, because ye beleue not, that absolut­ly without respecte had to any persons he geaueth himself truely in his Sacramēts, but that he geueth him self truly ād pre­sently only to the faithful receauer of hī.

The Lawe of God is perfite,Apol.and re­quireth of vs ful obedience: Ergo we are able by no meanes, to fulfill that Lawe in this wordely life.

The Answer is easie.Confut. For the holy do­ctours doe note two kindes of perfecti­ons. The one of the waie, in which we walke:August. de p [...]cca. me [...]tis The other of the Countrie, to [Page] which we goe.etremiss. lib. 2 [...] C 13. The one of this life, the [...] ­ther of the life to come. The one cōsisting in deniyng cōsent vnto cōcupiscēces, not­withstanding we feele manie of them [...] the other consisting in a perfite peace of body and soule, without any motion to euill. To fulfil the lawe so, that no mo­tion of euill come to our thoughtes, it is for an other worlde: but not to obey the Concupiscencies, that is such a perfecti­on, as many in this life doe come vnto. and that is a fulfilling of the lawe of God, in respect of our pilgrimage.

Paul sharply rebuked Peter:ApologBarna­bas departed from Paul, &c. Did Catho­like Fathers striued one against an other. Ergo we should not be so greatly noted for dissensions which are foūd amōg vs.

The Apostles and holy Fathers haue so striued,Con [...]ut. [...]39. that they kept vnitie of faith and religion. And they were not so set, that they would liue and dye in the qua­rel. But your Strifes are in principal ma­ters of Religiō, ād you be so obstinat eche [Page 7] of you in his opinion: that no Authori­tie shal make yow geue ouer and yelde: which is not so, emonge the Catholikes, whereas al are obedient vnto one head.

Iustine the Martyr is witnes,Apolog.that al Christians were called, [...], Godlesse. Ergo this ought not to trouble vs, that they cal vs wicked and vngodly men.

The cause is not like.Confuti [...] ­ [...]tion. 151. For if infidels speake euil of vs, it is no mater, because they are not our Ordinaries or Iudges. But whē the Catholiks, frō whō ye rece­ued the faith, and without whom ye can not be sure of the Articles of your faith, whē these that haue bē ād shuld be your Fathers and Rulers doe condemne your deedes: it should be a very simple cōfort vnto yow, that Infidels of olde tyme did speake against Christians. Of the same kind of argument it is, where you say.

Haman accused the Iewes as a peo­ple that vsed certaine new lawes.Fol. 228.The Atheniās said to S. Paul: may we know what new doctrine this is? Celsus wri­ting of purpose against Christ: what, saith [Page] he, hath God after so many ages now a [...] last & so late bethought him selfe? Euse­bius writeth, that Christiā religion was called new and strainge: Ergo t [...]y b [...] wicked m [...]n, spiteful against the religi [...] of God, which cal vs new fangled.

These arguments are naught. For the testimonie of Infidels against Christian [...] is nothing worth: but the Sentence olde Catholikes vpon newfangled Prote­stantes, hath much authority in it.

Paul the Apostle found faults & falles cuē in ye prime & chief of ye Gospel:Apolog.so that he was cōpelled to write sharply to the Galathians & Corinthians. Ergo the Church may faile and goe amisse.

I answer:Confut. 200. faults may be cōmitted, either in life [...] either in faith. Againe particular churches may erre both in life and faith. The Church of Rome may erre in life, but neuer in faith: because the whole church then shuld be deceiued, as which is boūd to obey the chief pastor, like as he is prīci­pally boūd to feed and instruct it. But this is impossible,Mat. 16. Ioa. n 14. the ꝓmises of God stāding, ād the presēce of the Holyghost assistīg it. [Page 8] Ergo though S. Paul foūd errors in parti­cular Churches, this cānot īport, that the whol Church may be deceued, or that One Church of Rome, vpō the safty and trust of which the helth of the whole depēdeth.

Pighius findeth fault wt many abuses brought in,Apolog.euē into y very Masse: Ger­sō cōplaineth of a nūbre of most fond ce­remonies: Ergo the Church may erre.

You might wel say:Confut. 206. Ergo a particular Church may erre in a ceremony or suche like thing about the Masse it self. But this is nothing to the purpose, to proue, that the whole Church may erre, or that the chief Church of al, which is in Rome, may err in faith. Now as Pighius foūd fault with abuses: so haue the Heades of the Churches geuē charge,Sess. 6. that thei shuld be amended. As in the very last Coūcel at Trēt. By which you may perceiue, that al­though fauts be foūd in the church, yet ar they not alowed generally of the Church.

Bernard was no heretike,Apolog.he had not forsaken y Catholike Church: yet neuer­thelesse he did not let to cal the Bishops [Page] that then were deceiuers, begylers a [...] Pilats. Ergo the Church may erre.

As he letted not to cal som deceuers,Confuta­tion. .209. et [...] so he testifieth for other, that they we [...] good and faithful Officers in the Church As Martianus the Cardinal and Gaufri [...] Carnotensis,Bernard. de consi­deratiōe. both of them, Legates o [...] the Pope, the one into Dacia, and the other into Aquitania. He prayseth also Eugenius the Pope, excedingly, and yet without flaterie. Whereby it is easy to perceaue, that all were not like them, whome he reproueth. And therefore the whole Churche was not deceiued, though some were Pilates, and not Pre­lates. An other answer is, that this Ob­iection doth not proue errour in faith (of which the question is) but of maners, which God amend, and which hurt not the good men, no more than the chaffe and strawe doth the pure corne.

The Grekes haue neyther priuate Masse,Apolog [...].nor mangled Sacramentes, nor purgatories, nor pardons, Ergo they [Page 9] holde a still numbre of those thinges, which they receiued from the Apostles.Confut [...] 267.

First the antecedent is starke false. Then concerning the Argument, it is not only false, but folishe also. For it con­cludeth an Affirmatiue of one kind, of a plaine and pure Negatiue of an other, as if a man would say. The Church of Eng­lande hath neither Crosses in their chur­ches, neither order of Monastical life in their Religion, neither Latine tongue, lightes or ornamēts in their Seruice: Er go it holdeth stil a nūber of those things, which it receiued of S. Austin the Monk.

It is madnes to think, y the Holygost taketh his flight frō a general Coūcel to [...]un to Rome:Apolog.Ergo y Pope may erre.Confut. 281.

It is madnes in dede so to think. And wher then had you the wit to imagin it? For what place cā you apoint to a Spirit, and especially what boundes vnto God? Beware of it, least whiles ye seke so gre­dily to flout your aduersary, ye blaspheme in your foule termes and Ironies, the ho­ly Ghost our Creatour.

[Page]Item,Apolo.what needed so many Bishops, with so greate charges, & so far iourneis haue assembled theyr conuocation at Tri­dent: if the Bishop of Rome must deter­mine al maters: Ergo he may erre.

If you had bene so obedient,Confut. 281. or if other were so wise as they should be, General Councels should not neede. But because the world is now come to that Infirmity ād curiositie, that maters must be defen­ded against al obiections of heretikes, and brought againe vnto examination, after they haue ben already determined and beleued: therefore hath the charitie and wisedom of the Pope [...] stoode to the char­ges of calling a general Councell, which facte of his doth not proue, that he may erre (which the holy Ghost wil not suffer for his presence sake in the Church) but that he doth so reasonably and discreet­ly order those maters that shal concerne our Faith, that he wil not erre as much as mans wit can prouide: but haue also the Aduise, Consent and Iudgement of other, which are of most authoritie and [Page 10] lerning in the Church of Christ.

Let the Bishope of Rome alone,Apol.be aboue al Councells: Ergo one parte is greater than the whole.

No Syr,Confut. 284 not parte greater than the whole, but parte shall be greater than parte, and one member worthier than an other. The bodie and heade togeather, make the whole: and take away the head ye take away a parte of the whole. Ye can not therfore make a diuisiō of the church into the whole and the heade: but in­to the head, and the reast of the partes of the whole. And then it is no absurdi­tie at all, that the heade should be grea­ter in price and honor, than al the other members beside.

Athanasius denied to come to y coun­cell at Cesarea:Apolog.

Athanasius went away from the Coū ­cell at Syrmium:

Ihō Chrysostom kept himself at home, although the Emperour commaunded him to come to the Arrians Councel:

Maximus and Paphnutius depa [...]ted from the Councell at Palestine:

[Page] The Bishops of the East would not come to the Councel of Heretiks named Patropassians.

Paulinus and many others moe re­fused to come to the Coūcell at Milane:

Ergo we are not to be blamed for not comming to the Councel at Trent.

You mutiply examples al in vaine,Confut. 293. ād there is no proportion at al, betwene the holy Fathers constancy, and your disobe­diēce. For they refused to be at the com­maundent of heretikes and their Fauou­rers, but you contempne the lawfull Au­thority of Catholike Bishops. If ye could truly say it, that the Fathers gathered of late at Trent, were Arriās, Patropassiās, or heretikes of any sort: then might you laufully vse the examples of Athanasius, Chrysostome, Maximus, Paphnutius, and other. But for as much as it is impossible, that they could be heretikes, which held no strainge and singular opiniōs, contra­ry to the Catholike, cōmon, and receiued faith in the whole world: you haue no excuse left for your pride ād disobediēce. [Page 11] That Cathalike Bishopes haue refused to come to the conspiracies of heretikes, ye neuer neede to haue proued it. But if ye can shew by any example, that euer any good man yet, did refuse to come to a Coū ­cel lawfully called by the Pope: then may that example make for you: but there is none suche to be founde.

None of vs can be suffered to sit in y Councell.Apolog.1

The Popes Legats, Patriarchs, Ar­chebishopes, Bishopes and Abbates do 2 conspire togeather, sit alone by them sel­ues, and haue power alone to geue they [...] consente:

And they wil haue al theyr opinions 3 to be iudged at the will and pleasure of the Pope:

Princes and Embassadoures are but 4 vsed as mocking stockes: Ergo le [...]e not the wise and good maruaile, if we haue those rather to sit at home, then to iour­ney to the Conucel.

The Apostles neuer made such argu­mentes.Confut. 294 And you if ye had in dede the ho­ly ghost, and if ye were chosen vesselles, [Page] to cary the name of God abrode: ye would neuer so childishely either without caus [...] feare, or if ye had a iust cause, complain [...] and whine, that you shal not sit, when [...] you come to the general Councel, or that then ye shal haue a number of Bishope [...] and Abbates against you, or that al shal [...] be referred to the Pope, or that they wil [...] mocke you, if ye goe thither.

For none of all these thinges should haue letted you from telling your opinion [...] and for the rest you should haue refer­red al to the will of God, what successe your words should haue had. But either ye be so prowde, that except you maie be of the chiefest, you wil not come into the presence of reuerēd and lerned Fathers: or ye be so fainteharted, that except the Prince be on your syde, ye dare non trust the warrant of a safeconduct.

A Christian Prince hath the charge of both tables committed vnto him:Apolog.Ergo not only temporal maters, but Ecclesi­astical also pertaine to his office.

[Page 12]He hath the Charge of both tables so far foorth,Confut. .303. that he must defend the ex­ternal geauing of due honour vnto God, and outwarde exhibiting of charitie to­wards our neighbour. But to offer vp Sa­crifice, to minister Sacramentes, or to iudge of Murder, Adultery, Theft, or any thing that is cōmitted only in hart, hath he any power? Euery man seeth, that worldly Princes meddle not with suche maters. And therefore theyr charge is baser and narower, thā the charge of Bi­shopes and Priestes: whom God hath ap­pointed to be his Officers in the inward Courte of Conscience.

The prophets of God cōmaunded the Kinges to breake doune altars of Idols,Apolog.and to write out the books of y Law, for them selues: Ergo Ecclesiastical maters perteine to the iurisdiction of Kinges.

You see,Confut. 303. then that the Princes are not Supreme, but that betwene them and God, the Prophete is the greater Officer. For the Prophets cōmaūd: the prīces obey. The Prophets geaue charge: the princes [Page] doe execute it. The prophetes declare what an Idol is, the Princes destroie it according to the prophetes instruction.

Moyses [...] Ciuile Magistrate recieued from God,Apolog.and delyuered to the people al the order for religion and sacrifices, and gaue Aaron a sore rebuke for making the golden calfe: Ergo ecclesiastical mat­ters perteyne to the office of princes.

This example agreeth not,Confut. 05. because Moyses was not a Ciuile magistrate only, but also a priest. And he was made also by God the supreme gouernour and cap­taine ouer al the number of the children of Israel, were they temporal or Spiritual persons, in figure of Christ. If ye can shew that our Sauiour left any such power vn­to any king in the world, and that his Apostles were not immediatly next vn­to hī, the chiefe gouernors of his church: then shal that temporal King haue the power whach ye labour to geaue him.

Iosue receyued commaundementes towchinge Religion and the seruice of God.Apolog.Ergo Ecclesiasticall maters per­teyne [Page 13] to theyr Iurisdiction.

He receyued commaundement,Confut. 305. to me­ditate in the boke of the law, which God had geauen by Moyses, and to keepe it. But this was so sar of from a Supremacy in maters Ecclesiasticall, that it is ex­pressly sayd in the boke of Numeri,Cap. 17. that Eleazar the prieste should aske coun­cell of God if any thing were to be done for Iosue, and that Iosue should goe furth and come in at the word of Eleazar.

And this one answer serueth all the Examples which ye bring in of King Dauid, Salomon, Ezechias, Iosaphat, Io­sias, Ioas, Iehu. By which ye wold proue, that they had iurisdiction in maters Ec­clesiastical. For they dyd nomore then, than Christian princes doe now, euen those princes that are obediēt to the See of Rome. For they buyld Churches, and finde Singingmen and Priestes to keepe dayly seruyce, they geaue Bishoprikes, they put Bishoppes byside theyr offices [Page] (as Queene Marie did put Crāmer an [...] Ridly) ād twēty thīgs moe they do abou [...] maters of religiō, not as Supreme Gouer­nours, but as deuout and faithfull Prin­ces, being glad to doe for the Churche, whatsoeuer the Spiritual heades there­of, shal moue them vnto, and being rea­dy to defend the faith of the Churche, as they shall learne it of their Bishops.

It remaineth then, that you shew, not that the kinges in the olde lawe did set furth the Seruice of God, displace Priests, commaūded the temple to be clensed, de­stroyed Idols &c: but that they did these thīgs by their absolute power, without as­kīg aduise, leue or instructiō of the priests.

Constantine called the Councell at Nice:Apolog.Theodosius the Councel at Con­stantinople: Theodosius the second the Coūcel at Ephesus: Martian the Coun­cel at Chalcedō: Ergo Ecclesiastical mat­ters perteine to the Office of Princes.

They called these Councels,Confut. .308. not by ver­tue of their supreme autority, but by the assēt of the B. of Rome. And so Princes [Page 14] haue to do with the maters of the Chur­che, at the second hand only.

The Emperour Constātine gaue in y Coūcel of Nice his aduise to y Bishops,Apolog.how it was best to trie out ye mater by y Apostles & Prophets writings: Ergo he bare a great stroke with his Authori­ty in their consultation.

As great stroke as he bare,Confut. .313. he strake not the head of the Church frō the body, nor made himself Supreme.Euse [...]ius in vita Constant. lib. 3. Theodor. lib. 1. c. 7. But that ye may vnderstād, how litle he toke vpō hī, he came in last into the Councel with a smal cōpany, and sate not doune before he had desired the Bishops to permit it. and then also he sate but in a low chaire. As for geuing of aduise, how things were best to be done, it is lauful for the least [...]rier, Abbate or Doctor in a Councel, to do the like: and yet euery Frier that speaketh in a general Coūcel, is not supreme head of the Church: nor of the vocation and Authoritie, to define or geaue sentence on any Canon.

[Page] In the third Councel at Con [...]antino­ple, Constātine a Ciuile Magistrate did not only [...]itte among the Bishoppes, but did also subscribe with them.

In the Councel called Arausicanum,Apolog.the Princes Embassadours gaue their consent, and put to their handes: Ergo eccles [...]iastical matters pertein to Princes.

So likewise to subscribe vnto the De­crees of a Councel,Confut. 316. and to geue their cō ­sent vnto matters there determined, it is and may be ꝑermitted vnto meane laye­men: but to define, determine, decree and geue Authority vnto a Canon, it is neither for Embassadours, nor Ciuile Ma­gistrates, nor Emperours of the whole world, but for Bisshops only, whom God hath apointed to gouerne his Church.

Gods grace is promised to a good mind,Apolog& to one that fereeth him. Ergo not to the Sees and Successours.

This would folow,Confut. 334. if God vsed to geue but one kinde of Grace, such as maketh the receauer good. But now there is a Grace of faith, hope and charitie, and it [Page 15] is not an euil minde, that hath it. There is the grace of preaching, working of mira­cles, healing of diseases &c. and he may be euill that hath it. To be a Kinge, it is by the grace of God, and that grace con­tinued vntil a certaine time in the Seed and Succession of Dauid: yet were not all they of a good mynde that were kinges of Iuda. By which it appeareth, that your Argument is false, and that the grace of Authoritie and continuance, is geauen not only vnto the good, but the euill that folow in the race and succession.

Peter when he was at Rome,Apol.neuer taught the Gospell, neuer fed the flocke. &c. sate him doune onely in his castle in S. Ihon Laterane, aud poynted out with his fynger the spaces of Purgato­rie, gaue orders to say priuate Masses, &c. consec [...]ated wyth hys holie breath oyle, wax, wolle, belles &c. mainteyned warres, set Princes togeather at vari­ance &c. Ergo Peter did all thinges like vnto the Pope.

Of whose deuising is this Argument?Confut. 335. [Page] Vndoubtedly no Catholike hath the [...] to make it. Do the Protestāts then speak [...] al this of S. Peter, in sad ernest: ' [...] thinke [...] not so euill of them, although they can be [...] sometimes desperat. How then? Doe they speake it but in sport, and dalie only with theyr Aduersaries? The cause is to great to vse in so large wise, such mockery. Set him vpon the Stage with a furd cap and a motly cote, he wil plaie the vice with­out a vizarde, and make gaie sporte to the cumpanie.

Men say,Apolog.that one Cobilon a Lacede­monian, when he was sent Embassador to treate of a league, & found by chaunce, them of the Courte playing at dice, he re­tourned straytewayes home againe, lea­uing his message vndone. For he sayd, it should be a greate reproche to his Com­mon wealth, to make a league with dy­cers: Ergo it should be a greate blot to our name, to returne to the Pope.

Cabilō might be parchaunce a wisemā in his own generation: but in these daies,Confuta­tion. 337. he should not be much better, than an [Page 16] impatient or Solemne Fole. For to play at [...] it is not absolutely and in all tymes, [...]laces and persons, euil. And to let that [...]vndone vpon priuate cōceipt and iudge­ [...]ēt, which is put vpō any mā, by cōmon cōsent ād authoritie, it is not in most ca­ses alowable. But such now is the ꝑfection of the new Gospellers, they wil not be at any league with dycers or euill lyuers, ād in theyr cōgregatiōs ād fraternities ther is (I trow) no blot of infamy to be feared. With what countenance then loke they, whē they come into the Courtes of Prin­ces or noblemen? Do they fin dno dycing [...]here, and no euil lyuing? I haue so good opinion of these mens holines, that if the Pope with al his Cardinalles would take themselues to Wyues (so to cal harlotes) ād in other things doe accordingly to the forme of the new Gospel, he should not on­ly haue a league made with him, but also be mainteined in his supremacy which he hath in Christendome. And the Cobi [...]on that should be sent Embassadour for the [Page] purpose wold neuer returne again, [...] ­uinge his message vndon, though [...] plaied at dice neuer so much.

The Popes would needes make [...] the realme tri [...]utary to them:Apolog.Ergo [...] most iustly haue forsaken them.

It is not for Diuines to alleage an [...] such temporal cause,Confut. [...]49. of mony mater, [...] their defence in departīg frō the churc [...] For seeing that the Popes Authority [...] ­meth frō God, what discharge of my [...] is that to me, if he do more, than [...] shuld by right and Conscience? Do no [...] temporal princes somtimes oppresse thei [...] Subiectes, and yet continew in their place and authority aboue their subiects [...] Your Argument therefore and fact is naught. And if the argument were true, yet haue you no occasion to depart from the See of Rome: vnto which in Quene Maries time you were reconciled, con­sidering that no tribute was required of you, no not so much as the restitution of the Abbey landes.

The Second Chapter, conteining certaine Absurdities of the English Apologie.

They be not mad at this day,Apolog.so many free cities, so many Kings, so many Prin­ces which haue fallē away from the seate of Rome, and haue rather ioyned them­selues to the Gospell of Christ.

HOW thinke you then,Confut. .16. by cōmon reason? May any Protestant say, that AL free Cities, AL Kinges, AL Princes, and AL Christen men and womē, frō the highest to the lowest, were mad in these last ix. hundred yeares (in which yow disdaine, and yet confesse, the Pope to haue ben obeied of all Christen­dome) and him selfe in so saying be no­thing madde? Or can you reproue your Aduersaries, if they be so vnmannerly and hasty in their termes, as to call yours so many free Cities &c. madde, where your selues iudge that all your Forefa­thers, for hundred of yeares together, [Page] [...] [Page 17] [...] [Page] haue bene madde, when they all folowe▪ with one consent Papistrie.

If it were a synne in the Heluetian [...] to deliuer their own countrie from fore [...] gouernment,Apolog.specially whē they were [...] proudly and tyranniously oppressed: yet to burthen vs with other mens faultes, or them with the faultes of theire forefa­thers, it is against all right and reason.

Why then do you obiect against the Catholiques the euill liues and deedes of Popes,Confut. 177. Cardinalles, Monkes, Friers, Priestes, which may be founde in anie sorte or condition of men, after some con­tinuance of tyme and age? And why tel you, abiding in Englande, tales vppon Italy, Spayne, or other countries, of Aloi­sios, Casios, Diasios, and others, to bur­then thereby the knowen and auncient Church?

In tymes past,Apolog.where the first Chri­stians our forefathers in making their prayers to God, did tourne them selues towardes the Easte, there were that sayed they worshipped the Sunne, and reckened it as God.

[Page 18]And you,Confut. .191. to proue your selues the sweete Sonnes, and exacte folowers of Antiquitie, haue altered the olde ma­ner and custom of the Catholike Church by charginge your Ministers, to praye towardes the sowth, and that in the chie­fest tyme and place of all your deuotion and Religion. If you knew whether to turne your selues, after the putting a­waye of the olde faith and ceremonies thereof, why chose you the south rather than the East? And why remembred ye not the first Christians vsage? Except (notwithstanding the remembrance of it) you regarded not what they had don and practised. How absurdly then cal you them the first Christians and your fore­fathers, whom ye disdain, or be ashamed to folow in the maner of their praying?

That old Father Augustine denyeth it to be leefull for a monke to spende his tyme slouthfully,Apolog.and vnder pretensed ho­linesse to liue all vpon others. And who so thus liueth, an olde father Apollonius likeneth him to a theefe.

[Page]See the pity which these men take of the old Fathers,Confut. 239. because their sayinges are not regarded: and see the pityful ab­surdity in which themselues are taken, whiles they would seeme to alowe the old Fathers. S. Augustine liketh not the idlenes of Monkes: but ydlenes put away, did he not alow the order of them? His booke is De opere Monachorum, of the labour of Monkes, prouing that none of them must so thinke hym selfe addicted to the seruice of God, in pray­ing, reading, or in spirituall exercises, that he should not sette his handes to corporal labour. And he maketh it not a case of necessitie, that euerie Monke must labour: but he impugneth theyr sayinges, which made a necessitie of it, not to labour wyth the bodie for theyr lyuing, but to serue God and man by the labour of mynd only, as in praying, prea­ching, and such like.

Nowe therefore, if S. Augustine would haue had the very Order it selfe [Page 19] and profession of Monkes destroyed, he should haue made short and saied, not that such monks as wold hold the opiniō, that they should not labour bodily, ought to be sette therevnto: but simplie and plainly he would haue concluded, that all Munkerie should be taken away.

And then, how could he make a whole Booke, De opere Monachorum of the labour of Monkes, except he would find some what where nothing is, and build a house without labourers?

But you, whom the idlenes of Mon­kes offendeth, and the neglecting of the old Fathers orders: shew to vs, I pray you, your refourmed Monasteries.Let He­retikes shevv their mona­steries. And if your factes haue declared before, and yet hytherto your rayling tongues can testifie, that ye hate the verie Order and Rule of Monkes, nor would abide a laboriouse and a vertuous Monke in your companie, how vnsensiblie doe you confesse the olde Fathers to haue spoken againste idle Monkes, (whereby they [Page] signifie no abhomination to be in the Order it selfe) your selues allwayes so mockingly and spitefully handeling, not distinctly idle Monkes, but (without all addition) Monkes? As maye appeare by Iohn Foxes no litle booke of Actes and Monumēts (to name one for all) and by your great muse in the next sentence folowing these words of which I speake, where, you wote not whether to name them droues, or heardes of Monks, as though no other title might be geuen vnto them, besides that which is proper for brute beastes.

Concerning the old Father Apollo­nius, if idle Monkes be theeues, what call you them which doe robb and spoile, not only the idle, but the laborious and holy Monkes? And robbe them, not of their house, land, and goodes only, but of their fame and estimation: and robbe againe, not only the Monkes, but the iust and true owners of such goodes as were bestowed vpon Monasteries.

[Page 20]But put the case, al Monks had bene theeues. He that robbeth a theefe, is he not him selfe a theefe? And if by stelth a true mans landes be taken from him, should it not returne in conscience vn­to him againe, if truth and Iustice were sought for, and not gaine or priuate lust? How well therefore your Procedinges agree with truth and honestie,Apolog. lette it be iudged by the spoyle of Monkes and Monasteries.

The old Councell at Carthage com­maunded nothing to be readde in Christ hys Congregation,Conf. 243but the Canonicall Scriptures.

The Homilies which you apoint to be read in your Congregatiō, be they, thinke you, Canonical Scriptures? Truely for so much as they are not, you muste eyther leaue them vnreadē in the Congregatiō, or confesse, that ye haue mystaken thys oulde Councell at Carthage. And in the meane while ye haue done very fonde­lye [Page] to complaine of transgressinge that commaundement, which your selues doe not keepe.

As for theyr religion if it be of so long [...] continuāce as they would haue mē wen [...] it is,Apolog.why doe they neuer proue it so by the examples of the Primitiue Church, and by the Fathers and Councelles of olde tymes?

This is not resonably required of you.Conf. 231. For where as you without blushing, dare confesse, that your Gospell began to spring about fifty yeares sence, and whereas vn­to vs, you graunt nyne hundred yeares, in whiche our religion hath continued: if nothing more could be alleged for vs, yet against you, this alone were a sufficient argument: And no man should be so ha­stie vpon vs, as out of hand to require of vs testimonies out of the Primitiue Churche, to whome we make it euident by the practise of nine hundred yeares, and that by confession of our aduersaries, that we be no vpstartes nor starters.

[Page 21]But nowe, whereas the late printed bookes of Catholickes (vnto whiche you make no greate speede to answer) doe [...]hew the Primitiue Churche and aun­cient Fathers to make for our Religion, and you, on the contrary side, haue neuer [...]roued yet your new Ghospel by any olde Example, Father or Councell: ye are in one sentence to be twise noted of absur­ditie, either requiring of vs proufes for our Antiquitie, your selues so conuicted in your owne consciences, to be of fewer yeres than the Papistes are by eight hun­dred and odde: either thinking it meete and necessarie that whosoeuer saieth his religion to be moste Apostolike and aun­cient, should proue it immediatly, your selues not remēbring to declare s [...] much in your owne cause al this while.

We in Gods cause desire to stande to Gods only iudgement.Apolog.

By the cause of God you vnderstand,Confut. 272. I thinke, the due worshipping of God, in true Religion. But what meane you, [Page] by God his only iudgement? Would [...] refer the whole mater to him only, th [...] his wil should come vnto you, neither [...] the meanes of Angelles, nor men, [...] anie other whatsoeuer creature?

And when would ye looke to [...] so muche performed vnto you? In [...] world, or in the life to come? If in [...] world: remember what was sayd to [...] desiring to see God his face:Exo. 33. No [...] shal liue, and see me. And consider, [...] the brightnes and incomprehensiblen [...] of God is such, as the wekenes of mās soul cōpassed yet with infirmitie, flesh ād [...] can not without somewhat put be­twene, apprehend or behold immediatly▪

If in the world to come: so might [...] saue in dede your selues from burning or fleyng, and ye should haue al the theues and whores in the world, most willing to ratifie that cōclusion, of which ther is none to be thought so faithful or fearfulin the sight of God, but he would stād to his only iudgemēt that is to come, vpon the [Page 22] [...]ope that by such a glorious protestatiō [...] might escape the present Iudgemēt of [...]?A prote­station [...]hat vvil saue the­ues, here­tikes, and al malefactours if it may be admitted And therfore meanīg by your stāding [...] Gods only iudgemēt, such an hering [...] ꝑceiuing of Gods wil, as is wrought by [...] own essēce īmediatly without any [...] of angel, mā, or any other craeture, [...] is for this present life impossible to be [...]bteined, ād argueth a blīd ād folish mīd [...] be in the wisher: ād referring it to the world to come, it is spokē so vnreasonably, [...]hat it may quikly be takē vp, to serue al wicked ād desperate psons, ād to saue thē [...] shame and punishmēt in this world: which how absurd it wold be ī the cōmō wealth (if such an appellatiō or protestatiō [...]er alowed) euery simple soul may ꝑceiue. [...]et whē a the [...]e not thīking ꝑchāce his [...] to be therī vnreasonable, shal ꝓtest, for [...] shift to say somwhat, or only to saue som­what (as his goods, or an opiniō of īnocēcy [...] the vnwise ād ignorāt) Y he wil stād [...] Gods ōly iudgemēt, he vttereth a sīple [...], or a tolerable policie: mary when a [Page] preacher or prelate shal solemly [...] and take a glorie in his bolde words, [...] make his folowers conceiue a [...] weight to be in them: that forsooth Gods cause he wil stād only to [...] iudgement, meaning that vntil [...] day come, he wil forbid al iudgement mē vpō his doctrin, he falleth into a [...] absurditie, partly because he [...] the trial of that which presently must determined, vnto a time which is so [...] of from vs: and partely because, he [...] also of so idle and vaine a prot [...]station.

But now, if ye meane not, to [...] your standing to God his [...] iudgement, A vaine bragg of the Pro­stants, if thei take thē selues only. to stande to Gods on­ly iudge­ment. so precisely and absolutely but that his Iudgement, whiche [...] call HIS ONLY, must and [...] comme to yow by some meanes (eithe [...] of Angels, or of men, or of other thinges then doe I note vnto you, first your [...] and bragging sound of wordes, as though [...] you did heare almightie God his sentenc [...] [Page 23] whiche he geaueth vpon maters of faith and Religion, after a more familiar and truer sorte, then the Catholikes doe (for they also stand to Gods onlie iudge­mente). Vppon whiche pointe yet be­ing examined, ye can not but confesse, that you heare him not īmediatly, but by meanes of other thinges whiche it plea­seth his maiestie to vse, so that other poore men may heare him, and stand to his only Iudgement, as well as you.

Therefore, I doe aske nowe further, by what meanes God only speaketh vn­to you?God speaketh not to the he­retikes by the ministe­ry of Angels▪ (For I truste without his vtte­ring of his minde ye are not so well ac­quainted, or so excellent of vnderstan­ding as to knowe it) doth he vtter his Iudgementes to you, by the ministerie of Angelles? But howe shall we beleue it, excepte ye proue it? And because ye haue not yet craked of it, surely I can not yet thinke it.

Wel,Nor by meanes of men. can you declare that he hath she­wed his wil vnto you, by the meanes and [Page] mouthes of men? If ye dare saie so, [...] the persons, that they may be considere [...] And further instruct vs, how ye did per [...]ceaue those worshipful felowes to speak vnto you, God his only iudgementes and not theyr owne fantasies?

But you haue an other way perchaūc [...] to come to the vnderstāding of Gods plea [...]sure.Not by means of dreames. What is that? Consisteth it in drea­mes, imaginations, mouings of your sprite within you, and other such prety means? Nay surelie, ye be not so dreamish, as to crake of these thinges, which are readie to depart as lightly as they came, and re­turne backe againe as quickely as they went away.

Or doth it consist in true visions and reuelations?Not by meanes of reuelations. That is much. Yet they also shuld be referred to the iudgemēt of the Rulers in Christs Church, before ful cre­dite might he geauē vnto them, because there may be iust feare of illusions.

The case therfore being so harde with you (as we take it) name that meane, [Page 24] which reioyseth your harte so much, by which, aboue the rate of other poore sou­les, you vnderstand the Iudgement of God, and stand to it, only.

The Scripture forsooth you wil runne vnto, and there loe God him self speaketh vnto you. But how? Immediatlie by him selfe, or by meanes of inferiour things? If immediatly: why goe ye then to the Scri­pture,Ergo by the mea­nes of the Chara­cters and letters of the scri­pture. and then the crake is very absurde. which is needlesse in that kind of immediate talke? But if he speake to you, and you heare him▪ by meanes of these vi­sible characters and letters of Scripture, of which visible letters, wordes and sen­tences be made, and in which words in­telligible senses are concluded, and if: his be all, that so stoutly ye [...] of▪ that ye stād vnto Gods only iudgemēt, it hath a shew of a great mater, and in deede it is of no valew, and it maketh the reader beleue, that you are wiser then other in your procedings: yet whosoeuer wil cōsi­der them earnestlie, shal perceaue that your crakes are most vnreasonable.

[Page]For in the meanes, which Almight [...] God vseth in vttering his blessed wil [...] vnto our grosse vnderstandings and sen­sible natures, there be diuers degrees▪ and not all of like dignitie or worthi­nes. As when he declared his minde to the Fathers in the old lawe, by sending of Angels in forme of men, and when he sent afterwardes his only begotten Sonn [...] in the truth of our nature,To vn­derstand the vvil of God bimeanes of vvri­ting is one of the ba­sest. And when this blessed Sonne of his declared what he was by sundry miracles, and further, chose certaine simple men and vnlerned to send them into the world to conquer al the pride and knouledge of the world, and to be short, when these Apostles of Christ, sent vnto diuers places the will of God conteined in their epistles or Gos­pell: In all these degrees, the lowest and basest meane to deriue by it vnto vs the will of God, is by Scripture and letters.

You therfore which by your stāding to Gods only iudgemēt, doe meane his iudgement vttered by meanes, and not [Page 25] immediatly by himselfe, you also which doe signifie thereby, that you folow a bet­ter and more excellēt way, than other do: you (I saie) being proued to take the wil of God vttered in scripture and writing, for that most excellent waie (which by all reason, is a more vnperfite and base meane, thā the appearing of Angels, prea­ching of men, or working of miracles) what do you els, but crake of that as the chiefest which hath his better, and refer your self to that as principal, whiche re­quireth other thinges to goe before it. If you wil heare more certainly and princi­pally that which God commaundeth, ye must go not to the scriptures immediatly: but to them that shall tell you what the Scripture is, and reade it after a Catho­like tune, vnto you.

The Pope is appeached by vs of hai­nous and foule enormities,Apol.and hath not yet put in his answere.

In what court?Confut. 218. before what iudges? What yere of our Lord? for what foul enormity? [Page] Your selues may be wel enough Phariseis. But wher are your scribes, your sumners, your apparitors, for this mater? Is not th [...]s an exceding absurd folie, to appeach (which importeth an order and forme of law by you obserued) him with whō you haue nothing to doe? And to complaine that he putteth not in his answer, whom you can not appeach? And which if he would, knoweth not where anie consi­storie of yours is to answer you in it? Your selues would not appere, being summoned to the late general Councel, where out of al Christēdome there were your betters, both for spiritual and tēporal gouermēt, and therefore ye would not because they haue (as you must now thinke) nothing to do with you: and now your worshipful wisedomes haue appeached the Pope, as though you had iurisdiction ouer him.

Besides this, if the Popes enormities of which you speake cōcerne the priuate li [...]e and maners of the Pope, may an En­glish magistrate, whatsoeuer he be, re­quire [Page 26] by law and conscience that cause to be brought before him? On the other side if ye haue appeached, not Pius Quintus now Pope (a most nolie and innocent Fa­ther) nor anie of his late predecessours, in this respecte as they were priuate men, but as heades of the church, then haue ye called into iudgemēt al Christiās which obey them, as accessories to their enormi­ties. And so besides the Pope, Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops, Priests and others of the clergy, either ye haue▪ or by as good law you may appeach the King of Spaine, Fraunce, Scotland &c. with al the prin­ces, Dukes, and States of Christendome. and yet not accuse them for feare but be shrew thē (for your office sake) that they do not put in theyr āswer. Such iudges as you be▪ such a king was capitaine Kete, or if that similitude be not fit, you be like to the madde frontike prince, of whom it is readen, that he tooke care and ioye ouer al the shippes of strangers which passed in great numbre doune by his palace, ha­uing [Page] in deede (poore kinge) verie fewe good vesselles of his owne to crake of.

Trulie, whether the Pope will put in his answer, or whether he hath receiued your Iudgement, I wil not striue vpon it, but, for desire to see the ende of your pro­cesse against him, ye should haue don ex­ceading wel (me thinketh) to send your Officers, some to Rome, there to watche when the Pope with al his Cardinalles sitteth in the Consistori [...]: other some to the Emperour, wheresoeuer he be in Campe or in Courte, and when eche of them is occupied about maters of the Churche and the Empire, sodaynlie let your Officers come and arrest (I can not tel yet in whose name, excepte it be of the Apologie of the Church of Englande, but it is no mater for the name) let your Officers doe as you commaunde them, and l [...]tte them firste arreste the Pope an [...] his Cardinalles, as principall, with al the Bishoppes about him: And then afterwardes the Emperour as accessorie, [Page 27] with all his Dukes and nobles, and bring them closely to London before hygh com­missioners, and vntil they wil be ruled, and put in theyr answer, set them faste, here and there, through all the gates and prisons in London. For either you haue no law, or possibilitie, to appeach the Pope, or els surely ye may by these meanes constraine him to bring in his aunswer. The one is as reasonable as the other.

Although the modestie and the myl­denes of the Emperour Ferdinande,Apolog.be so greate, that he can beare this, because peraduenture he vnderstandeth not the Popes packing, yet ought not the Pope of his holynes to offer him that wrong, nor to claime as his own an other mans ryght.

A lykelie mater,Confut. .313. that the Emperour should not vnderstand the packinges, if anie be made, of the Pope, hauing a wise Councell assisting him, and the worlde round about sownding of heretiks bokes and practises, him selfe also hauing (as ye will not I thinke denie) as muche [Page] iudgement and discretion as your mini­sters, of whom yet euerie one maketh himselfe to know much of the Popes pac­king, and goeth with his fardell about him, and (like a spiritual pedler) setteth foorth his smal wares in open pulpittes, and emong all other pointes, vttereth those of the Popes behauiour, as most gay geare for the brothers and sisters.

Note besides this, howe artificiallie they praise the Emperour for his modesty and mildnes: because (say they) perad­uenture he vnderstādeth not the Po­pes packing. Thinke ye then, that if without peraduenture he vnderstande it not, that the hearing thereof doth proue a mildnes to be in him? So may ye praise a deafe man for his meekenesse, when that not hearing the euil wordes that are spoken against him, he is neuer moued or troubled with them.

If so be they whom God hath placed in greatest dignitie,Apolog.did see and perceaue these mens practises, how Christes com­maundementes [Page 28] be despised by them &c. no doubt they would neuer so qui [...]lie suffer them selues, neither to be disday­ned after such a proude sorte, nor so dis­pitefullie to be scorned and a [...]used by them.

No doubt,Confut. .32 [...]. but if you for your no litle wit or learning, were worthie to be in any great dignitie: you should quicklie perceyue, that the Princes and Rulers of the world haue and do vnderstande as much of the state of Religion, as any of the Brotherhood. either because they are wise of them selues, and are set in an high place, from which they may better see what is done in the worlde, than o­ther of base degree: either because Kings and Princes haue commonly about them, either wise Coūcelers to instruct them of all things, Or Courtly Discoursers which will be ignorant of nothing, Or dissolute lyuers, which are ready to speake against the Auncient faith for loue of the late Gospels libertie and noueltie.

[Page]Ireneus often tymes appealed to the oldest Churches,Apolog.which had bene neerest Christes tyme, and which it was hard to beleue had erred: but why at this day is not y [...] cōmon respect & consideratiō had?

See how properly you wil haue appeale made to the oldest Churches,Confut. [...]23. which abā ­dō the Church of Rome, which was in S. Ireneꝰ time, so truly the chief, that vnto it (as he saith) al Churches must resort because of the greater prīcipality, Lib. 3. c. 3. and which at this day is without all questi­on the oldest: and from which you haue so strayed, vnto seeking of the ouldest Churches, that falling vpon a young con­gregation of three score yeare olde at the most, ye passe not very much vpon anye church new or olde, but onely the pure and plaine scripture.

For somuch as we were ascertened of Godes wil,Apolog.and compted it a wicked­nes, to be carefull and ouercōmed about the iudgments of mortall men, we could no longer stand taking aduise with flesh and blood.

[Page 29]Haue ye receued your Gospel by reuela­tiō,Confu [...]. .317. as S. Paul saith of himself that he did? Are you the Apostles of Christ neyther throughe man, neither from man? If ye will be ashamed of such arrogancie, then haue you to confesse, that ye haue learned the Ghospel of [...]od, at the mouth of men. If ye wil stil glory in it, and neuer blush, then walke as ye are, and shew vs your Reuelation: or tell what contrary Ad­uertisement you haue receiued, why ye should not throughly follow their iudge­mentes, of whom ye receiued the Gho­spel at the beginning?

Iohn Chrysostome,Apolog.although the Em­peroure Constantius cōmaunded him by [...]o wer sundrie letters to come to the Arrians co [...]ncel: yet kept he him selfe at home [...]ill.

How is the Prince then Supreame head?Confut. 3 [...]. Or how doe you bring S. Chryso­stomes example for defence of your fact? For if the Kynge be chiefe Gouernour in all causes spirituall and temporall, [Page] surely he was no good and obedient sub­iecte, whiche would not come at fowre times sending for. On the other side, if ye dare reproue S. Chrysostome, for his not yelding to the supreme powres com­maundement, what meant you to alleage S. Chrysostome in defence of your doings, allowing not the fact of S. Chrysostom?

The third Chapiter, conteining the lies that are made in telling of Stories with Folies in crediting of vaine tales.

Were al things then pure and holy in Rome,Apolog.when Iohane, a woman rather of perfit age thā of perfit lyfe, was Pope there, and bare her selfe as the head of the Church? And, after that for two whole yeres in that holy See, thee had played the naughtie packe, at la [...]t going in Pro­cession aboute the Citie, in the syght of all the Cardinalles and Bishops, fell in trauaile, openly in the stretes?

THere was neuer any such woman Pope in Rome.Confut. .154. Anastasius, an hi­storiographer of that time, and master of the Popes Librarie, whiche was himselfe present at the creations of Ser­gius 3. Leo 4. Benedictus 3. and other Popes after them, maketh no mention of any such. And yet the makers of this wo­man Pope▪ do place her▪ betwene Leo 4. and Benedoctus 3. Other historiographers [Page] also, both old and late, of the beste sorte make no accompte of her.

Then he that telleth the tale of thi [...] Pope Iohane, telleth it with such probab [...] ­litie, that he must be of smal wit and dis­cretion, which should geaue anie credite vnto it.

For he speaketh firste by heare saie onelie.

Then he telleth, that she was an En­glishe woman borne, at Magunce: and Magunce is high Doutchelande.

Further he saith, that she was brought to Athenes by a louer of hers. And there­fore by likelyhood she was more than a Childe.

Nowe, what should she doe at Athe­nes but lerne a Gods name. And Athe­nes, at that time, was not for learnyng, as being altogether barbarous.

And yet she not onlie learned, but profited also in diuerse sciencies, and so profited, that none was found to be compared with her. And yet it is [Page 31] [...] to saie, whether women in mens [...], and kepte purposelie for the [...] of theyr Louers, should haue the [...], the will, the wit, the leisure, the grace to passe all other of the Vni­ [...]rsitie. But let the tale goe forwardes.

How came she to Rome, by what fa­ [...]ur, by what hope, by what louers cost [...] [...] fancie? Well, this is not told but as [...]hough, that there were no more in the [...], but that as sone as anie fine and excellent Scholare came to Rome, he should straitewaies be apointed out to be the next Pope: so the See being vacant, this for saied Iohane was (no mā knoweth how) inthronizated: and yet it is not on­ly bysides the practise of the Churche of Rome, but also against common sense and reason, that anie should be chosen vnto that Office, whom they should not knowe by manie yeares experience, and by com­mendation of worthie personnes: And also perceiue by the face it self, to be a mā lykelie to gouerne the Church discretly.

[Page]But now saith the tale further, be [...]ing in the Popedome, she is begote [...] with child of her seruant. For ye [...] understand, that her old louer was [...] dead, or that either she was weary him, or he of her, and that she kept h [...] self an honest woman, vntil the secon [...] yeare of her Popedome, at which tim [...] her seruant begot her with child.

It is very credible she was past child bearing, which had a louer before she went to Athenes, and liued there [...] long (not without louers, I trow) til she was the best scholar in the Vniuersitie▪ And [...]aried then afterwardes in Rome til she was thought worthy to be Pope But the grace of the tale were lost, an [...] all the short of the heretikes were mar­red, except she had a child.

And [...], say they, not knowing the tyme of her deliuerāce, as she wēt from S. Peters to Laterā, she brought furth, and dyed. How incred [...]ble▪ that a woman, and so honest a woman as from [Page 32] [...]er youth had ben an harlot, ād so lerned that none was found to be compared with her, should not knowe the time of [...]er delyuerance, or not make so nigh a [...] at it, that she would neuer ven­ [...]er abroade, when ieobardie might arise of betraying her selfe? How vnlikelie al­so, that before the mater was opened in procession, she could kepe it so close, that none of the curiouse Italian eies, could perceiue it, either that shee looked not like a man, or did not so be haue her selfe as men doe, or were nothīg chainged, in bodie or countenance, from that pleight she was in eight or nine moneths before?

But I wil leaue to make further con­iectures: this is certaine, the best Histo­riographers make no mention of any Io­hane,Ioannes Polonu [...] a monke and he whom the heretikes at this time folowe, and which is theyr first au­thor in this tale, is such a one, as is alto­geather vnworthie of credite.

To whose eares hath it not come,Apolog.that N. Diasius a Spaniard, being purposely [Page] sente from Rome into Germanie, [...] shamefully a [...]d diuellishly murther [...] owne brother Thon Diasius, a moste in­nocent and a most godly man, onely be­cause he had embraced the Ghospell [...] Iesu Christe, and would not returne a­gaine to Rome.

How proue you,Confuta­tion. 1 [...]7. that he was purpose­ly sent from Rome? As though the Pope or anie of the Cardinalles had so greate care, what the poore correctour Iohn Diasius the Spaniard did, in his masters shoppe in Germanie.

How proue ye also, that Diasius his brother did murther him? For he did not onely not murther him, but not so much as know of it, before it was done. The whole matter was brought before Iudges, Diasius was deliuered, and he that in deede committed the murther, was condemned.

Howe vniustlie then doe you, to condemne him for a murtherer, whom hys lawfull Iudges haue absolued? Yow [Page 33] will, I trust, repent, or els you will an­swere for it, when it shal be to late to repent.

Who hurled vnder his table,Apolog.Fraun­cis Dandalus the Duke of Uenice, King of Creta and Cypres, fast bounde wyth chaynes, to feede of bones amonge the dogges?

No bodye.Confut. 186. But tell vs now againe, who hath made fyue lyes in so fewe lines?

First Dandalus was not hurled vn­der the table, Sabellic. Decad. 2. lib. 1. but, he came of his owne accorde. And to moue the Pope vnto pitie, creeped vppon all fower to his ta­ble, and there layed hym selfe doune.

Secondlie, he was not then Duke of Venice. (For their Dukes vse not to be Ambassadours, nor to goe out of the Citie) nor Kyng of Creta, nor Cypres. For the Venetians haue no Kynges in their State.)

Thirdlie, he was not fast bounde in chaines, sauing that one chaine which [Page] he put about his owne necke, and which he might haue taken of, and gone awaie at his pleasure.

Fourthly, he was not hurled vnder the table to feede of bones. For neither the Pope doth make any fare so harde, neither setteth he any man to diner vn­der his table.

Last of all, that he should be hurled doune to feede amōg dogges, I thinke that either the Pope hath none at all, eyther that he hath other places for thē, or that he maketh not man and beastes commensales together.

Tel me then now, who hath made so vile, so spitefull, so doggish and so many lyes within iij. or fower lines togeather?

And al this shal ye find in the very History of Sabellicus, Decad. 2. lib. 1. col. 1220. And the Quotation is true, al­though M Iewell in his Sermon of late, did tel it for a worthy point to be noted, that Sabellicus neuer wrate Decades, but Enneades. Which if it had bene [Page 34] true, the mistaking yet of the Title of a booke was not much to be spoken of, as long as it is found to be true, that which is reported, as out of such a booke. But thankes be to God, there is no harme done to D. H [...]rding, because Sabellicus hath in deede written Decades of the Story of the Venetians, although there be extant also Enneades of other Stories which he intitleth Rapsodia. And M. Iewel in pressing his Aduersary so ear­nestly with such a trifle, and yet fayling therein also of his purpose, doth proue himselfe to be driuen very sore vnto his shiftes, and that he is much to be pyti­ed, that he hath not like good successe vnto his greate courage.

Who set the Emperiall Croune vp­pon the Emperour Henrie the Sixths heade,Apolog.not with hys hande, but with his foote? And with the same foote a­gayne, caste the same Crowne of, say­ing withall, he had power to make Em­perours, and to vnmake them againe at hys pleasure?

[Page]You by likelyhood can tel which aske the question? For vnto vs it is not onlie a fable, but a foolish one also, and absurde and malicious.

Who put in armes Henrie the Sonn [...] against the Emperour his Father,Apolo.Hen­ry the fourthe: And wrought so, that the Father was taken prisoner of hys Sonne, and being shorne and shameful­ly handeled, was thrust into a Monaste­rie, where with hunger and sorowe, he pyned away to death?

The Pope did none of all these thin­ges. Conf. 187 But the Sonne himselfe, after a greate foile and ouerthrowe, whiche his Father had taken at the Saxons handes, seing him to be so strooken with feare, that he durst not appeare abrode, he toke vpon him selfe the administration of the Empire, and fought afterwades against his owne Father, which would haue had him to surrender the Empire. And taking his Father prisoner, he commit­ted hym to straight custodie, without anie motion of the Pope therevnto, as [Page 35] with whome also he was at Variance. Then, as touching the Shearing or thru­sting him into A Mo [...]asterie, or fa­mishing of Henrie the fourth, lette hym that made these shamefull lyes, shewe his Authour, and defende hym selfe.

Who,Apolog.so ilfauouredlie and monstrous­lie put the Emperour Frederikes necke vnder hys feete, and as thoughe that were not suffyciente, added further thys Texte out of the Psalmes: Thou shalt goe vppon the Adder and Cocka­trice, and shalt tread the Lyon and Dra­gon vnder thy feete?

Who this should be,Conf. 188 your selues can not tell, whiche are the onelie main­teiners of the tale. For sometymes ye laie it to Innocentius the thyrde: some­tymes to Innocentius the eyght: some­tymes to Alexander the thyrde. And the fact being so strainge and singular, that it coulde not be but notorious, yet ye haue so litle certeintie thereof, that ye knowe not who should haue done it. [Page] But the trueth is, no graue writer ma­keth any mention of such behauiour of the Pope.

The Emperour Theodosius, [...]. as So­cra [...]es sayth, did not only sit emongs the Bishopes, but also ordered the whole ar­gui [...]g of the cause.

Here you speake of sitting, [...] as though Th [...]od [...]sius had then ben at some Gene­ral Councel. You speake also of ordering the whole arguing of the cause, as though him selfe had ben a moderatour of some disputation.

The plaine storie is,Hist. [...] 9 ca. 19 Theodosius con­ [...]erred familiarly in his owne palace, with the Bishope of Constantinople, howe his people might be brought to an vnitie in faith. And when the heretikes refused one good way (which was, to be tried by the testimonies of Auncient Fathers) he went an other waie to worke with thē: whiche was, that eche of them should bring furthe in writing, that which he had to say for his faith. Which being don, [Page 36] the Emperour read ouer theyr writings, ād reiected the Arriās, Macedoniās and Eunomians heresies, and embraced and commended the iudgement of the Ni­cene Councel, touching the consubstan­tiality of God the Sonne with his Father. So that this historie serueth nothing to the mater of a General Councel, nor pro­ueth, that an Emperour may sit there, as Iudge emong the Bishops, nor that Theo­dosius did vpon his owne heade, and as Supreme Gouernour, that which Socra­tes here reporteth of him, but that he fo­lowed the Councel of his Bishope Necta­rius, and the former decrees of the Ni­cene Councel.

Iustinian put doun from theyr Papal Throne two Popes,Apolog.Syluerius and Vi­gilius, notwithstāding thei were Peters successours, and Christes Uicars.

No,Conf. 3. it was not Iustinian, but his La­die Theodora, which was a great main­teiner of heretikes, and when women, theyr husbandes being alyue, be so feruēt [Page] in sprite, that they must haue such Popes as please them selues, no wounder if Peters Successours be shamefullie han­deled.

Charles the greate being Emperour held a prouincial Councel in Germanie,Apolog.for putting awaye Images, contrary to the second Councel at Nice.

This is so false,Confut. 327 that the contrarie is most true. For whereas the heretikes, named Imagebreakers,Abbas Vrsper. Anselm. Ryd. Pēcerus. Carion. Pantal [...]o had holden a Coū ­cel at Constantinople, for abrogating of Images: directly against this impietie of theyrs, Pope Adrian and Charles the greate held an other Councell at Franke­ford in Germanie. So muche it lacketh, that Charles the greate should be a fa­uourer of Imagebreakers.

The fourth Chapiter conteinyng the lies made vpon the Auncient Fa­thers and other VVriters.

S. Augustin,Apolog.whē he disputed against Petiliā an heretik of the side of the Do­natistes: let not these words,Aug. de vnitate Eccl. c, 30quod he, be heard betwen vs: I say, or you say: let vs rather speake in this wise, thus sayth the Lord: there, let vs seeke the Church, there let vs boult out the cause.

THe question betwene S. Augustine ād the Donatistes was this:Conf. 29. wher the Church should be? Now, to proue that the Church was not with the Catholiks, the Donatistes were busie al­waies, in rehersing, how the Catholikes, had burned the holie bokes, ād had offred incense to Idols, and had persequuted Innocētes, like as the protestātes in these daies, whē the questiō is of the Suprema­cy of the Bishop of Rome, thei vse to make a long tale, how such a Pope was a Necro­mācer, and such a one a leachero [...]s man, and some other proude and ambitious.

[Page] Now although S. Augustine migh [...] (and did also in sundry places) say truely [...] that the obiections of the Donatiste [...] were false,Augu. de vnit. Ec­cles ca. 2. Idē lib. 2. cōt epist. petil. c. 8. and though he might brin [...] furth against them also, greater exam­ples of their faults: yet considering, tha [...] such oiections taken out of the euill life of the one side or the other, doe not per­teine to the question proponed: And see­ing, that altercation and strife only wa [...] mainteined thereby, whiles eche part [...] would say▪ the other lied, and would no [...] ceasse to tell what they could one of th [...] other, being not credited yet one of th [...] other: S. Augustine therefore not de­sirous to chide, but earnest to proue th [...] Churche to be on his side, vseth thes [...] wordes:De vnit. Eccl. c. [...]. Let vs not heare, This I saie, or, This thou saiest; but, let vs heare, this saieth our Lord▪ After which wor­des, these folowe whiche the Apologi [...] should not haue omitted, Truly ther b [...] extant our Lordes bookes, the autho­ritie of which we both do agree with [Page 38] al, we both beleue, we both serue and obey: There let vs seeke the Church, there vs boult out our cause.

For the Church it self to proue it selfe by her owne wordes, is not conuenient: And to credit her at the reporte and cō ­mēdation of a baser ād vnworthier wit­nes then her self, is very dishonorable. It remaineth therefore, that her cause be examined by the Scriptures, as whiche haue so great authority, and are so gene­rally receiued. And truly it is exceading wel prouided of God, that, in theyr seue­ral causes, the Church s [...]ould declare the scriptures, and the scriptures the church. And so, whē any mā beleueth the church, and striueth with me vpon a text of the scripture, I would say vnto him, let vs haue no more these words, I saie, or you say, but let vs heare rather, this saieth the Church.

On the other side, when one beleueth the scriptures (as heretikes thinke they do) and would reason with me about the [Page] Church, where it should be, I would answer: Let not these wordes be hear [...] among vs, I say, or you say, but let vs heare, This saith the Scripture. There­fore in this principall question betwene the Catholikes and the Donatists, which was, where the Church should be, the best waye was, only to appeale to Scriptures.

Againe, the Donatistes admitte [...] the Scriptures: but other thinges which S. Augustine alleaged out of laufull re­cordes, either of the Ecclesiasticall, or the Temporall Court, to encounter them withal, they did not belieue. And so, I say, and thou sayest, went to and fro betwene them, without anie conclusion or profite. To driue therefore the mater to some Issue, let vs heare no more (saieth he) I saie, or thou sayest, but, this sayeth our Lorde, his bookes we both belieue, we both obey. there let vs seeke the Church.

Now in other Kyndes of question, [Page 39] as, of fasting, receiuing the Sacramēts, keping of holy dayes, and other traditi­ons, S. Augustine wold neuer bind vs to Scripture onlie, him selfe saying of these and the like, in his Epistle ad Ia­nuarium. August. [...] epist. 116. ad [...]anu­arium. What so euer the whole Church thorough the worlde dothe kepe, thereof to dispute, it is a most insolent madnes.

Likewise also, towarde such kynde of Aduersaries, as woulde be tried hy testimonies of olde Fathers togeather with Scriptures, or without expresse Scripture, he would neuer charge vs to vse these wordes onelie, This saieth our Lorde: but well would haue bene con­tented, that we should saie▪ this saieth Cyprian, Ambrose, Basile, &c. him selfe speakinge of Auncient Fathers be­fore and in his tyme after this fasshion: Quod credunt, Contra Iulianū, Pelagia­nū. lib. 1. ca. 2. credo, that whiche they beleue, I beleue, that whiche they say, I say, &c.

Therefore ye haue abused very muche [Page] your Reader, and S. Augustine bothe, making the one to thinke, the other to testifie, that, we should not fight against Heretikes, but with expresse Scripture onelie.

Fulgentius ad Thrasimundum saith,Apolog.that Christ, tho [...]gh he be absent from vs concerning his manhode, yet is euer pre­sent with vs concerning his Godhead.

The forme of a seruant is one thing,Confut. 3 [...]. and manhood is an other. The forme per­teineth to shape and figure, which coue­reth our substance, and maketh it visi­ble: the manhood perteineth to the in­warde nature, and is, only intelligible. The first is not graunted nor taught of the Catholikes, that Christ is with vs now in earth, after the forme of a ser­uant. The second yet they confesse and belieue, that he is with vs really in his manhood. The first is Fulgentius true sayeng, to the king Thrasimund: The se­cond is your deprauing of Fulgentius, in face of the worlde.

[Page 40] Sozomenus saieth of Spiridion,Apolog.and Nazianzene saieth of his owne Father, that a good and diligent Bishoppe doth serue in the ministery neuer the worse for that he is maried, but rather the better and with more hablenes to doe good.

It will neuer (I feare) be better with you,Confut. 76. but alwaies worse and worse. Would ye make Gregorie Nazianzene, contrarie to the Apostle? And S. Paule so expresselie pronouncyng, that he which hath a wyfe, is carefull for the thinges of the world, 1. Cor. 7. and is diui­ded, thinke you, that any Auncient Fa­ther or writer (whose testimonie your selfe doe trust) were likely to say, that a Bishop dothe serue the better in the ministery, for that he is maried?

I am glad ye geue credit to Sozome­nus and Nazianzene, vsing them for witnesses, that we may see whether ye wil regard their owne very wordes, and crie them mercy for abusiug them. So­zomenus saith thus, speaking of Spiridiō. [...] Lib. 1. c. [...] [Page] [...]. This Spiridion wa [...] an husband man, hauyng wyfe an [...] chyldren, but he was not therefore the worse to Godward.

How thinke you then, doth he praise Mariage? Doth he saie, He serued God the better, and wyth more ha­blenes by reason thereof? Doth he not rather note it, as a rare and a singular grace in him, that hauing such occasions of diuidyng and distracting his mind, he neuerthelesse was nothing abated in his diligence and attention towardes God?

Nazianzene likewyse speaketh of S. Basiles Fathers perfect life in mari­age with A (but yet) saying: Although he put himself in bondes of mariage, yet he liued so therein, as he was let­ted no whyt therefore, from the at­taining of perfect vertue, and folow­ing of wisedome. As who should say, it commeth most times so to passe, that when students or holy men are maried, [Page 41] they looke but seldome on their bookes, but wait vpon the busines of the world: yet was it otherwyse with Basiles Fa­ther. For he, although he put himself in bonds of mariage, yet he was no whit letted therefore &c. In which words he cōmendeth his vertue, and geueth no exāple to vnmaried Priests, that if they wil be furthered to perfectiō, they should not be without a bedfelow: nomore thā he which should report of an other, that he sitteth at a table ful of delicats, and yet neuer surfeiteth vpon them, that proue that it is a right waye to tempe­rance, alwaies to be at many and fine di­shes. Whereas contrariwise, in all things that are delectable vnto the senses, and hurtfull, by excesse, vnto morall vertues, the safest way is, to flee from occasions of euill, vntil by longe custome, an ha­bite be obteined in the vertue. And then, as it is an argument of greate per­fection, to liue with a woman and no­thing to be hindred in deuotion by her, [Page] so, it is so rare a vertue, and needelesse (thoughe it be in a man) to be practi­sed, that as it may sometimes come to passe, that one is not the worse, yet there was neuer yet any man so blind and vn­sensible, which would thinke it to be a preferment toward perfection, to be at bed and at borde with a woman.

The more you haue then to answer for, which haue fathered such a sense on S. Gregory Nazianzene.

S. Hierome: Al these things, saith he, which without ye testimony of the Scri­ptures,Apolog.are holdē as deliuered from the Apostles, be throughly smitten doune, by the sword of Gods worde.

He saith not generally (al those things,Conf. 30 oīa) but,In [...]rin [...]ū cap. Ag­gaei. Sed & alia, that is, and other thinges also. And he saith not, which are holden, asserūtur, but, which they find and f [...]ncie, meaning heretikes, of whom onely he speaketh in that place. And therefore he maketh not a generall rule against Traditions, but a special pro­uision [Page 42] against the deceits of heretikes.

It was ryghtly said by Pius the se­cond a bishop of Rome,Apologthat he sawe ma­ny causes, why wiues should be taken away from Priests, but many moe and more weighty causes, why they ought to be restored to them againe.

His wordes,Conf. [...]0. as Platina reporteth, are these, that mariage hath bene takē frō Priestes with great reason, And that it semeth, it were to be restored again with greater. Note (it semeth) not (it ought) and note (greater rea [...]on) and not, manie moe and more weyghtie. And if he had so ernestly spoken, as you suppose, yet dothe he not allowe the ma­riage of priestes, whiche he confesseth to haue bene taken away for greate cause: but so muche he seemeth to be greaued with the loosenes of thē in his time, that he thought the causes why they might be permited to marie, were much greater.

After which maner, a very discreet and sadde Merchante of London might saie vnto you, that for greate good cause, [Page] Apology wold be so much ouerseen? mary, aut integra percipiant, aut ab integris arceantur, either (saieth he) let them receaue the whole, De cons. dist. [...] ca [...] Cōperi. eihter let thē be kept from the whole. Of receiuing therefore he speaketh, not of geuing.

Why, is it not al, in a maner, one? and can both be receiued, except both be ge­uen? No, thei cannot. But who shal con­straine the Priest to geue both? Or who shal cōpel the Bishopes (whom God hath set to gouerne his church) who shal com­pel thē, to make a law that both be geauē? For as they s [...]al see it expedient for the present state of the peple, ouer which thei haue authority, so may they, to some geue both, to some geue one: to some in forme of bread, to other in forme of wine: ād some also they may kepe frō receiuing in anie kind at al, like as by their discretion they shal see the diuersity of cases to require. And if ye could īpugne this by any means, yet could ye not īpugn it by Gelasiꝰ, ād ꝓue by him, that both kinds ought to be geuē.

[Page 44] Secōdly I note against you, that neither the peoples receiuing in both, is proued by Gelasius to be of absolute necessity, vn­der peril of committing sacrilege. For he speketh but of one certain kīd of persons. How proue I that? By his own words. For in his cōmuandement, that they, which were noted vnto him, should either re­ceiue the whole, or abstain frō the whole he laieth in, this cause betwen. Quoniā nescio &c. Because they be staid with a superstitiō, I cā not tel what: ergo take superstitiō awaie, and the case of the Re­ceiuer is altered. And he doth not forbid a vertuouse and right beleuing mā to re­ceiue in one kind, vpō good cōsideratiōs. Shew ye now▪ that the sacrament ought to be geauē in both kinds▪ ād that some sorte of people might not receiue vnder one alone: or confesse, that ye haue made a duble lie vpon Gelasius.

What can be sayd more plainly then yt which Ambrose saith,Apolog.bread and wine re­maine stil the same they were before, and yet are chaynged into an other thing.

[Page] As plaine as he speaketh, Confut. 94. you vnder­stand him not: and if you do (because no­thing can be saied more plaine) then doe ye abuse him most shamefully. The beginning of the sentence or periode, out of whiche you take certaine wordes for your purpose, Lib. 4. de Sacr. c. 4. is this in englishe. If there be so great power in the word of our Lord Iesus, that thinges which were not, should begin to be: how muche more, is it effectual and workinge, vt sint quae erant & in aliud commuten­tur, that thinges which were, be, and be chaunged into an other thing. Vpon the construction of which latine wordes our present question consisteth. The Apo­logie cōstrueth thus▪ vt, that (vnderstād, say they▪ panis & vinū, bread and wine) Sint, quae erant, should remaine styll the same they were before: & cōmu­tentur in aliud, and should be chaun­ged into an other thing. Now the true interpretatiō is thus to be made. Vt quae erant, that the thinges whiche were: [Page 45] Sint, be, & in aliud commutentur, and be chaunged into an other. So that quae erāt, is nominatiue case to the verbe sint, and not panis & vinū, as the Apolo­gie faineth.

For in S. Ambrose argument there is this antithesis or opposition: from not be­ing to being, and from being to an other being. As, if God hath made nothing somewhat, muche more of somewhat he may make another thīg. Before the world began, the Heauens, waters, and Earth had no existance or being at al. God spake the word, and so of nothing he made thē to haue a beginning and being: but bread had a being, when it was yet vnconse­crated, and after the wordes of consecra­ [...]on it keepeth stil a being (because it is not annihilated, and vtterly made no­thing) yet it keepeth not still the same being it had before, because it is no more natural bread, but is turned by the omni­potencie of Gods worde, into the bodie of Christe.

[Page] As in example of the meate whiche we eate, be it fishe or fleash, it had a be­ing in it selfe before we did eate it▪ an [...] after it is once digested it hath a being, (for we are not fedde with nothing, and our meates are not annihilated in vs, but conuerted into our bodily substance) yet they keepe not the same being whiche they had before. For then should theyr bo­dies which fed alwaies vpon veale, mut­ton, capons, wodcockes &c. consist not of mans fleash, but of calueflesh, shepes flesh, &c. And such men were quickely to be set to schole, or reformed in theyr opinion least by much vsing of the foresayd mea­tes, they might proue (in theyr own con­cepte) as wise as Calues, Capons or Wod­cockes.

This example wel considered, it will appeere, that S. Ambrose saieth right lie, that, quae erant, sint, the things which were, keepe a being (as bread dothe when it is consecrated) but not (as the Apologie abuseth S. Ambrose) that, [Page 46] Sint quae erant, they should remaine styll the same they were before. For bread is conuerted by consecration into the bodye of Christe, and so keepeth styll a being, but not the same, whiche it had before.

Cyrill saieth,Apolog.when we come to re­ceiue these mysteries, all grosse Imagi­nations must quite be banished.

Grosse Imaginations in S. Cyrill,Confut. 107. doe signifie, not the Catholique beliefe of the Faithfull, whiche confesse them sel­ues to receiue vnder the forme of bread, perfecte God, and perfecte man, One Iesus Christe: but the carnall though­tes and opinions of Nestorius, and lyke Heretiques, whiche diuide Christe, that is but one, and imagine, that the Blessed Virgine was Mother of Christ man, not of the worde God, as though the manhoode had anie personall subsi­stence, separate from the Godheade. Of whiche false principle it woulde fo­low, [Page] that the bodie of Christ, which Chri­stians receiue in the Sacrament, should be the bodie of a pure man. And therfor [...] he inueigheth against him, and saieth.

Num hominis comestionem &c▪ what, doest thou pronounce this ou [...] Sacrament to be the eating of a man, and doest thou dryue irreuerētly the mind of the faithful to grosse imagina­tions? &c. Now the Catholikes, which beleue that they receiue, not the fleash of a bare man (which could not but mi­nister verie carnal and grosse thoughtes) but the fleash of God and man, that by consideration of the presence of suche [...] maiestie, our vnderstādings should yeld [...] vnto his wordes, by faith, and put awaie all carnall Imaginations concerning the mysteries: iudge you, whether we be giltie of grosse imaginations, and whe­ther you haue rightlie vnderstanded S. Cyrill, or no.

As Chrysostome very aptly writeth,Apolog.we say, that the body of Christ is y dead [Page 47] [...]rcas, & we our selues must be y Egles, [...]eaning therby, that we must flie high, if [...] wil come to the bodie of Christ.

We must flie high in deede,Confuta­tion. 109. which is, [...] Chrysostome him selfe expoundeth it, [...]o haue nothing to do with the earth, In 1. Cor. cap. 10. Ho. 24. neither to be drawen dounwarde to [...]ase thinges. And againe: wype awaie (saieth he) al filth frō thy soul, prepare thy mind to receiue these mysteries. No [...]e the worde, mysteries, and marke, that he dothe not meane fleeing vp by faith vnto heauen, in which place onlie ye would haue Christs body to be: but ra­ther a fleyng by deuotion and good mind to the Aultar here beneth on earth, where the body, of whiche he speaketh, doth lie. He flieth high, which cōtemneth the Iudgement of his owne senses, which subdueth his reason to Faith, whiche despiseth the thinges that the worlde estemeth highlie, whiche conformeth his life to the life of Christ, which prepa­reth him self to the mysteries. No doubt [Page] but we must flee high, not chaunging of place but cōditions: not by only cōceiuing of Christ that he is our Mediatour in hea­un, but also beleuing of Christ, that by his body he worketh our saluatiō in earth: hat by spiritual imaginatiō, to fede on his body at his fathers hād al aboue, but with faith­ful ād hūble deuotiō, to receiue his real body at the priests hād here beneth: not by light esteming of the sacramēt as though ther were no real presence, but by diligēt preparing of our selues towards it, as con­teining the body of God our Sauiour.

Of which two kinds, ye chuse the first with refusal of the secōd, ād would haue your reader or herer beleue, that he must not looke to haue the naturall sleash of Christ in the mysteries on the altar, nor beleue any trāsubstātion, nor make any a­doration: for then we should haue Christ within our sight, our reach, our body, and haue our maker p̄sent amōg vs in earth, ād this wil not stand (say you then) with the fleing high of which Chrysostō spea­keth: [Page 48] But because you abuse S. Chrysostom herein, therfore I tel you of it, ād bid you [...]emēbre, that the high fleing of whiche he speketh, is to be referred vnto the for­saking of earthly, vile, ād base maners, ād not to the drawing away of our mind frō the beliefe, and reuerēce of the mysteries.

For thus he expoūdeth our fleing high: If the kinges child araied in purple ād diademe were deliuered vnto thee to beare, woldest thou not cast doun on the groūd al that thou holdest, and re­ceiue him? But now whē thou recei­uest not the Kings child, but the only begottē Sonne of God,Chrysost in 1. Cor. cap. 10. Hō. 24. tel me, I praye the, art not afraid? And doest thou not cast away al loue of worldly thīgs, ād garnish thyself with him ōly, but doest thou loke doun on th'earth? Art thou yet in loue of thy mony? art thou yet geuē to the earth? If it be so, what for­geuenes, what excuse shalt thou find?

And of real presēce he writeth thꝰ, that we haue in earth that very body which [Page] was nayled, beaten, which was no [...] ouercome by death, which the Son̄e seeing crucified, tourned awaye hi [...] beames, for which the veile of th [...] Temple was rent a sunder, stones an [...] all the earth quaked, the bodye that was made al bloody, and being thru [...] in with a speare, powred forth foun­taines of blood and water, healthful [...] to all the worlde. You therefore ar [...] much deceiued, and haue greatly misse­vsed S. Chrysostome, by fleeing so high, that ye see not his plaine Text and mea­ning.

How shall I holde him (saieth A [...] ­gustine) which is absent?Apolog▪How shall [...] reach my hand vp to heauen,In Ioan. Tract. 50.to lay [...] vpon him that sitteth there? He aunswe­reth, Reach thither thy faith, and tho [...] hast laied holde on him.

He speaketh not in that place,Confut. . [...]0. to th [...] faithfull about their receiuing of Christ▪ but to Iewes which beleue not in Christ. And them he teacheth, not to seeke [...] [Page 49] Christ as theyr fathers did (which was to kyll him) but (as the faithfull doe) [...]hich is to keepe him. But howe maie [...]ne keepe him, excepte he take him? Or how maie one take him, except he come to him? Or how maie one come to hym which is in heauē so far from him? Mary (sayth S. Austine) reach furth thy faith, and thou hast hold of him. Thy fathers held him in fleash, holde thou him in hart, for Christ absent is also present.

Vpon which place I would note for my owne parte, that he sayth not, reach thi­ther thy faith, but, mitte fidem, reach furth or put furth thy faith. For this mi­ [...]chiefe maie come to the reader of this word Thither, that taking S. Austine to speake ther, to thē that alredy haue faith ād beleuing his words in that place, to ꝑteine to the questiō of the Sacramēt, he cōcludeth straitway, that Christs true ād reall body must not be sought for in the mysteries vpō the altar, because S. Austin biddeth vs reach our faith thither, that [Page] is, to heauē. Yet the place is neither refer­red to ꝑfect Christians, but only to Iewes, neither doth it specifie, reaching hither or thither, but only requireth plain [...] geauing of faith.

Yea ther is so great oddes betwē S. Au­stin as he is in his own worke, and as he is made to stād in the Apologie, that the worde thither, which the Apologie so gladly reporteth, is expressly refused of S. Austin. For to the Iewes questiō, asking how he might reach to heauen, and take hold of Christ, he answereth, put furth faith, and thou hast hold of him, and ad­deth after a fewe wordes this cause: For Christ absent is present. As if he should say, whē I bid thee (ó Iewe) to apprehend Christ which is in heauē, I require faith of thee, and doe not bind Christ to a cer­tain cōpasse ād circuit, nor make it nede­full for thee, to clime vp to heauen. For Christ, as comprehended by faith, is i [...] earth as wel as in heauē, and thinke no [...] therfore, of chainging of place, but chayn­ging [Page 50] of hart, knowing that by faith Christ is in mens hartes, and is continually here to them that wil beleue in him.

As touching the multitude of vaine & superstitious Ceremonies,Apolog.we knowe that Augustine did greuously complaine of them in his owne tyme.

What saied he of them?Confut. Howe sore did he complaine? What one example did he bring of them, that you might gheasse, the Ceremonies which you haue abrogated, to be of like sorte with those of which he complained? Why make ye the Reader to suppose or beleue, that S. Augustin did loue as fewe ceremonies as ye doe? Or why teach you him not, out of S. Austin, how to discerne what is vain, what is fructful? Let the truth be opened, and your vanitie wil sone appeare.

S. Augustine doth so greuouslie com­plaine, and he is so ready to diminsh the numbre of Ceremonies, that the grea­test papist in the world, would not aske more fauor in the questiō ād cause of thē. [Page] 1 First if the Scripture doth alow anie or­der or fashiō, it is not vaine. If the whole 2 Church hath generally receiued ani, it is 3 not vaine. If it be but a particular Cere­mony of one coūtrie, and be not agaīst the faith or good maners, it is not vaine. Yea 4 if anie thing be in it which helpeth to amendement of life, it is not vaine.

By so many waies, and for so many cau­ses, a ceremony maie wel continue, as ye shal finde in that verie epistle of S. Au­gustin: Epi. 119. c. 18. & 19. And had you the face so to alleage this holy Doctours complaining of cere­monies, as though he would haue as few as you? What Sacrament haue you, about which ye doe occupie oile? What thinke you of the fast of lent? What of Alleluia be­twixt Easter and Witsontide? What vse haue you of any Octaues?Cap. 7. 15. 18. Yet of these Ce­remonies, he maketh mentiō in the fore­saied Epistle, and reckoneth that they are to be vsed and regarded.

Gregory &c. if the Church, saieth he, shall depend vppon one man,Apolog.it will at [Page 51] once fal doune to the ground.

Ye belie him shamfully, he hath no such words at al.Conf. 203 Yet the protestāt may think this impossible, that you should haue no more regarde of your honestye. Let him seeke then, if he be learned, and iudge by his owne senses, whether any such propo­sition is ther to be found. But is there not a like vnto it? Ye as, so like as Rome is to Constantinople, or Gregorie S. Peters successour, to Nestorius of Constantinople an heretike. For if a man should seeke for his life, to find in that epistle, but some resemblance of that which the Apology re­porteth, he findeth no more but this which I shal declare for th'vnlerned sake.

Iohn Bishope of Constantinople affe­cted the title of Vniuersal Bishope. S. Gregorie then Pope of Rome, cōplaineth thereof to Mauritius the Emperour, de­claring good causes ād reasons, why such presumptiō should not be suffred. Emong other he maketh this argument. Lib. 4. epist. 3 [...]. Surely we haue knowē manie Prelats of the [Page] Church of Cōstātinople, to haue fallē into the goulfe of heresie, and to haue ben not only heretiks, but archehere­tikes also. Nowe for example, he nameth Nestorius and Macedonius: then brin­geth he in, therevpon this conclusion. If therefore in that church (vndoubtedly of Constantinople) anie pul vnto himself that name (of Vniuersal Bishope) ergo (which hath ben the iudgement of all good men) the whole church (which God forbid) falleth frō her state, whē he falleth which is called Vniuersall.

An excellent argument vndoubted­ly. For if the only or Vniuersall Bishope should be at Cōstātinople, that see hauing no priuilege of cōtinuing stil in the right faith (as appereth by the archeheretikes, which sate ther) and al the world being bound to obey the Vniuersal Bishope, this one absurditie graūted, a thousand would folow, and that one Bishoppe erring, all the whole Church should go a straie. Loe this is al that may seme to geue any occa­siō [Page 52] of reporting that which the Apologie hath attributed to S. Gregorie.

And wher find we here, that if the church depēd vpon one mā ▪ it must at once fal doune to the ground? Wil they yet defend theyr lying? Or dare they yet stil abuse the old fathers? [...]s the Church, ād that Church, al one in cōcluding? Is depēding vpon one man, and that man, al a like? The successor of S. Peter, and Bishop in that chaire, in which neuer yet was foūd any archeheretike to set furth naughty doctrin, is he al one with a Bi­shope of Constātinople▪ which neither succedeth any Apostle, and hath bene a defender of heresies? let vs see now ther­fore whether you wil cōfesse your errour in mistaking S. Gregorie: Or mainteine your impudencie in misusing of him.

The bish [...]ps (sayth Bernard) who now haue y charge of Gods church,Apolog.ar not tea­chers, but deceauers, they are not feders, but begilers, thei are not prelats but pilates. These words spake Bernard of y B. [Page] who nameth him self the highest Bishop of al, & of y other Bishops, likwise which then had the place of gouernement.

How then?Confut. Did S. Bernard forsake al papistrie and abandon the Pope, because of those fa [...]ltes which he foūd? If he did, why taried he in his mōkes cote vnto his death? If he did not, what vnwise mē be you, to for sake the Church for euil ma­ners sake?

But cōsider further. Whō called he de­ceauers▪ beg [...]ers, pilats? Al the whole or­der of Bishopes and gouernoures of the Church frō the Pope dounward? Or spake he of some certain only? If he noted but some certain, ād [...]hē worthely: those other some, which were not infected might wel preserue the state of the Church in truth of maners and doctrine, that ye need not to feare an vtter destruction [...] it, and so through wretched foly depart out of it. If he spake generally of al, then wil I cōfesse that ye are not so much to be blamed; for your departing from that Church, nor for [Page 53] anie your applieyng of S. Bernardes Au­thorie to that purpose. But because I am sure this is false, therefore I charge you, and blame you.

How proue I this? I proue it by those very bookes, in which (as you saie) the foresaid wordes, against the Pope and Bishopes, are. For concerning Eugeni­us him selfe, he saieth in the third boke, after much complaint or reproufe made of the euil maners of the Court of Rome, Haec ad te, Berna. de Cōs. lib▪ 3 nō de te scribo. I writ this vnto thee, not of thee. And immedi­atly, he declareth by example, how Eu­genius refused bagges of monie, which came out of Germany and condemned a greate riche bisshop (by likelyhode) notwithstāding his mony. And how he gaue of his own vnto an other poore bisshop to geue vnto the officers in the Court, least the bisshop should seeme niggish and vncourteous, if he should haue nothing rewarded them. Now Doth it greaue thee to heare this? And I (ꝙ S. Ber­nard) [Page] doe tell it so muche the more gladly, by how much thou hearest it the more greauously. The Pope the [...] him selfe was none of those deceauers, begilers or pilates, whom you mention.

Furth then: were al the Cardinalles and Bishops, deceiuers &c. No, neither al they, as you may reade it proued in the fourth boke of that worke, by the exāples of two great Legats. The one was Cardi­nal Martine,Cardinal Martin. which being sent legate in­to Dacia, a countrie ful of gold and siluer, returned yet so poore, that for lacke of mony and horses, he coulde scarse reach vnto Florence. The Bishope of which place gaue him an horse, without menti­on making of any mater to be done for it. Yet the legat ād Cardinal Martin, was [...] soner at Rome, but the bishop of Florence came also thither: And seeking the fau [...] of his frinds in a certain cause of his ow [...] at length he cōmeth to Cardinal Martin. Yea (sayth he) Decepisti me. Nescieb [...]tibi imminere negotiū. tolle equū tuū [...] [Page 54] ecce in stabulo est. you haue deceued me, I knew not ye had any sute in hād. Take your horse to you, loe, yonder he is in the stable. This is one, and he, I truste no deceauer or Pilate.

An other,Cardinal Gau [...]rid. is Gaudfridus Bishope of Cartres, which many yeres together was at his own charges Embassadour and le­gat frō the Pope in the costs of Gascoigne. Of whō he telleth, that ther was a sturgeō brought vnto him by a certain priest, but I wil not take him (sayd the Cardinall) except I pay for him. Againe, a Ladie of the towne where he lodged, brought vnto him for deuotiō and good wil, three treen disshes with a towel, he beh [...]ld thē, he praised thē, but in any case he would not take them. And at both these tymes S. Bernard was present. And saieth here­vpō vnto Eugenius: O that we might haue store of such mē geuē vnto vs, as thes were, whō I brefly haue spokē of.

If therefore the Pope him selfe was good, and some Cardinalles and Bishopes [Page] were holie men, how can you witho [...] impudencie drawe S. Bernard to such [...] sense, as thoughe he should condem [...] the whole See and Church of Rome [...] And if (as I saied before) you thinke him not to speake generally, what hel­peth it your cause, in departing from the Church, to proue that some Prelates be Pilats?

Secondly, I might wel and truely say, that S. Bernard speaketh against the maners of the Court of Rome, and not against the faith of the Church of Rome. And though he should name the Pope for his euill behauiour, which he doth not, a Pilate: yet concerning his Autho­ritie and office, he geueth vnto him all the titles of excellencie, that are found in the Scriptures, from Abel to Christ. Affirming besides, him to be the shep­heard, not only of sh [...]pe, but of all other Shepheardes also▪ and, Others to haue bene called to take parte of the cure, but hym to haue fulnes of [Page 55] power, with other such wordes more, of like sense.

Thirdly I aunswere, he neuer spake so vnreuerentlie of the Pope in all hys workes. And that the testimony which you alleage, is not in the bookes ad Eu­genium.

The old Father Epiphanius saieth,Apolog.it is an horrible wickednes,Epiph.and a sinne not to be suffred,Haere. 61.for any man to set vp any picture of Christ him selfe.

See how these felowes cā amplifie and [...]et furth a lie?Confut. . [...]35. Epiphanius, they thinke, [...]aketh for thē, and therfore they dresse [...]im in their own colours. Ye find not in hī [...]either these greauous and mightie ter­ [...]es, horrible wickednes, and Synne [...]ot to be suffred. Neither these precise [...]onclusions, that any man shal not set [...]p anie picture: Neither this aggraua­ [...]ing additiō, of Christ him self. He spea­ [...]eth quietly, and he speaketh not gene­ [...]ally, but against a certaine kind of Ima­ [...]es, or honor done to them, as appeareth [Page] by the words istiusmodi vela, such kin [...] of veiles. And he prescribeth nothin [...] against the Image of our Sauiour Christ [...]

If ye wil not leaue this place, but pro [...] that it maketh against Images, Pluck [...] out first these lies, and repaire the testi­monie, making it neither better neither worse then Epiphanius doth permit you, and then shal you be otherwise answered.

The old fathers Origen & Chriysos [...] exhort y people to reade ye scriptures,Apolog.to bye them bookes, to reason at home be­twixt thēselues of diuine maters, wi [...]es with their husbāds, & parents with their childrē. These men condēne y scriptures as deade [...]lemēts, And, as much as eue [...] they may, barre the people from them.

Ye ioyne these two Fathers togeather as though they both confirmed your lyes.Confut. 236. But Origene neither speaketh of byeing bookes,Ho. 9. in Leuit ca. [...]16. nsither of reasoning at home [...] the scriptures, but of comīg to church ā [...] hearīg the scriptures, and of thinking af­terwardes at home, vpon the keping of them in mynde, and fol [...]wing them.

[Page 56] Then as concerning S. Chrysostome, he speaketh agaynst suche as neglected the reading of Scriptures, and thought this to he a sufficient excuse, for them that they were no Monkes:Ho. 2. in Matth. as who shuld sa [...]e, we haue wife, children and house­hold, with other things besides to thinke vpon, and therefore it is not our voca­tion to looke in the lawe of God, and by that to amende our liues.

He speaketh likewise against other, which loued to haue faier and trym books of the Gospel, for ostentation sake, not to reade them and profit by them. Of which sort ther may be found, at this presēt, som in the world, which liuing loosly, and re­garding their soules health slenderly, ca­ry yet the testamēt or some parte thereof boūd vp in goldē forel, and hang it about their necks like a Iewel. But as for the bi­yng of Scriptures, he spaketh it by occasiō ōly, in reprouīg such as had books in their cupbords, ād no vnderstāding or sense of them in their mind.

[Page] For after he had saied:Hom. 3 [...]. in loan. This hauing of bookes cōmeth of the Iewish am­bition and craking, vnto whom the cōmaundementes were geuen in let­ters, and vnto vs not so, but in the tables of our hart, which are of fleash, least he shuld sem to derogate somwhat hereby vnto the written Scriptures, he addeth: yet I do not forbid it to gette books, yea rather I pray you most er­nestly get them, but so, that we maie repere often in our minde, both the letters and sence the of them. He was not therefore so careful of it, that euery man shoulde bye the scripture: but this he studied for, that euery man should be diligēt in bearing away of the scriptures readen▪ or preached in the open church.

Proue ye now that S. Chrysostome exhorted all and singular of his people, to bye them bookes, especially in the vul­gar tounge. And iudge ye whether he had so little discretion to mo [...]e al there­vnto, which verie few could bring to [Page 57] passe, the raritie and pryce of the writ­ten bookes being considered.

Nowe as concerning the other lie, that wiues at home with theyr hus­bandes, or children with theyr paren­tes should reason betwixt themselues of diuine maters: either I vnderstand not your englishe, or els ye abuse S. Chry­sostom most shamefully. For if ye meane, that al that reasonīg (which you imagin) signifieth no more, but that the father shuld instruct his sonne, ād the wife geue eare to her husbandes good counsel, then surely you must pardō me, I neuer vnder­stood this much before, that reasoning of diuine maters should haue so litle questi­on in it. But if reasoning betwixt parties doth importe an argueing to ād fro, with obiections, solutions, replies, resolutions, diuises, suppositiōs, &c. And if reasoning of diuine maters, doth signifie the questiō proponed not to be of so smal geare, as the childes education, or the womans si­lence which she ought to kepe at home, [Page] but of the Trinitie, Incarnation of Christ▪ value of Sacramentes, Iustification, pre­destination, &c. Doe ye make S. Chry­sostome so vnlike himselfe, that ye woul [...] permitte a disputation of Diuinitie, be­twixte the man, his wife, and his boye?

Suche Scholes in deed kepte the Wal­denses, and as thoughe it had bene no­thing worth except the world did know it,Act. and Monu­ [...]ēts. 673 they brought furth theyr yonge chil­dren so well instructed in Diuinity, tha [...] they were able to appose and aunswer one the other in no triflyng questions. But S. Chrysostomes meaning is altogea­ther otberwises: and he would haue lai [...] men to read the Scriptures at home, in maner of repeating, not of readīg or ma­king a lesson. And that they shoulde re­membre and call to mynde suche thinges as they had learned of the Bishope, and not studie themselues vpon anie text at al, as though they must be preachers, T [...] edifiel also themselues and others by fo­lowing a good life, not by seeking a newe [Page 58] conclusion of Doctrine.

How proue ye also, that he speaketh of the whole Bible, to be bought and readē? For the easie partes thereof, maie be put into the peoples handes, but the whole in no wise. The Greeke texte also was not nor is not so corrupt, as your englishe trā ­slations. And to be shorte the people are nowe more proude and bolde, then at those daies they were. For then, with vnwasshed handes they were afraied to touche only the Scriptures: and now they take vpon them to interprete them in shoppes, alehowses, waggons, and fea­riebotes.

The auncient Fathers,Apolog.Cyprian, Epi­phanius, and Hierom say, it is better for one, who, perchaunce, hath made a vowe to leade a sole life, and afterward liueth vnchastly, and can not quench y flames of [...]uste: to marie a wife and liue honestlie in wedlocke.

Concerning S. Cyprian, Conf. 237 by his owne wordes I wil proue that ye misconstre him. If they (saieth he speaking of [Page] virgins in generall) haue by faith and promise dedicated themselues vnto Christ,Lib. 1. Epist. 11. let them cōtinue honestly and chastly, that no tales be made of thē. And so be [...]ng strong and stedfast, let them looke for the rewarde of virgi­nitie. But if they wil not or can not cō tinue, better it is that they mary, than fal, through their lustes and delightes, into the fier.

This is the place, and how doe ye now vnderstand it? If ye refer it to virgins in general, that is truly saied in dede: [...]ary it serueth not your purpose, to proue by S. Cyprian, that Nonnes maie marie. If ye refer it to virgins alreadie professed, th [...] doth the one parte of the sentence de­stroie the other, and it is impossible, tha [...] both should hang togeather.

For if, according to your sense, vir­gins after vowe made, might laufulli [...] marie: how standeth the former parte [...] the sentence, defining, that if they hau [...] dedicated themselues vnto Christ, le [...] [Page 59] them continue? And when this precept is to be obserued of virgins professed, how can it folowe by anie reason, that the selfe same ꝑsons, should haue it so sodēly graū ­ted vnto them: That if they can not or wil not continue, better it is to mary? S. Cyprian therefore speaketh of such, as are free to choose either this or that, and not of such as are past choosing.

And againe, if the place were vn­derstanded as you say, then might Nōnes marie, not onely when they can not quenche the flames of theyr luste, but also if they wil not. For if they can not or wil not (saieth S. Cyprian) better it is that they marie, then fal through theyr lustes and delyghtes, into the fiere. But this is incredible, that so good a man would geaue a licence so euil: ergo you doe mistake S. Cyprian.

Concerning S. Hierome,Ad De­metriadē [...]e virgi­nitate [...]er [...]anda. whome in like maner ye haue abused: his words are. The name of certaine, which behaue not themselues wel doth defame the [Page] purpose of holie virgins, and of the heauenly and Angelicall companie. Vnto whom (which whom? Vndoubtedly such as liued emong virgins, not yet pro­fessing virginity, but intending and pur­posing it only) it must be plainly saied, that either they mary if thei cā not cō ­teine, or cōteine if they wil not mary.

Now that there is such a distinction of virgins to be made, it appeareth most euidenly by S. Hieroms owne wordes not twentie lines before this place, saying. But let this perteine to those virgins which haue not yet chosen virginity, and nede exhortation, that they may knowe what it is, that they ought to choose. (this is, to virgins not yet pro­fessed: but in the person of the professed, it followeth) OF VS, the things, which we haue chosen, are to be kept. Ther­fore ye knowe, what followeth: that ye haue abused S. Hierome, because he permitteth not mariage to such as haue al­ready made a vowe of virginitie.

[Page 60]Last of all, as touching Epiphanius, these be his words:Epipha, haere [...]. .71. The holy Apostles of God haue leaft this tradition vnto vs, that it is a syn to turne to mariage, post decretā virginitatē, after virgini­tie decreed and determined. And the Apostle writeth: 1. Cor 7. If a virgin mary, she hath not sinned. How then agreeth this with that? That is to say, if this be true, that a vrigin may mary, how agre­eth it with the Traditiō of the Apostles, that It is a sinne for a virgin to turne to mariage? Epiphanius answereth by expounding the Apostle in these words.

Illam dicit quae non est Deo dicata, The Apostle (in saying, that if a virgin marie, she doth not sinne) speaketh of that virgin, which ys not dedicated vnto God. Ergo he is not contrary to the foresaied Tradition of the Apostles, by which such virgins are forbidden to marie, as haue vowed their virginitie. Ergo, to say further: They which accōpt mariage to be vncleane (as the Aposto­lici [Page] did, against whom Epiphanius there writeth) agree not with the Apostle. And further, they that saie, a virgin maie marie after she hath made a vow, (as the compilers of the Apologie do fals­ly gather) are cōtrary to the tradition of th' Aposples, ād to Epiphanius most euidēt resolutiō, which I haue shortly declared.

By this it wil appere, whether the aū ­cient fathers be wel vsed of the Apology, whereas S. Cyprian, S. Hierom and Epi­phaniꝰ, whō so closely they name, for wit­nesses, do so manifestly testify against thē that none must marie after they haue dedicated theyr virginitie vnto God.

The auncient Emperour Iustiniā, cō ­maūded,Apolog.yt in ye holy administratiō al thin­ges should be pronūced with a clere, loud & treatable voice, yt the people might re­ceiue some fruict therby. These mē leste y people should vnderstād thē, mūble vp al theyr seruice, not only with a drouned & holowe voice, but also in a strange and barbarous tongue.

First you make the Emperor to speke ofCon. 242 [Page 61] the holy administratiō, not telling vs ei­ther what or whereof? For ther is an holy adminstratiō of al the seuē sacramēts, ād in other things also which the church ob­serueth, as halowīg of churches, of paschal taper, of palma, of asshes, ād in bu [...]iyng of the dead. But the decre is referred to the holy oblation or sacrifice, the truth of which as ye wil not beleue, so the very s [...]ūd of the word ye cā not wel abide. Se­cōdly th'emperor speketh not of som fruit as you say (as though no ꝓfit c [...]me of th'ob­lation, if the priest spake not aloud) but of more deuotiō to be stirred therby. Geuīg vs to vnderstād that al is not lost, though nothīg be hard, but somwhat is won, whē the sense is more stirred. Thirdly your sur­mise that we therfore speke with a holow voice, lest the peple shuld vnderstād vs, is vnsensible. For neither the clergy shuld lese any thīg, if the people were learned: Nor the people should vnderstād much, spake thei latin neuer so loud. And here­tiks wold vtter the secrets of our seruice [Page] were we neuer so warie: And no chari­table man will suspecte it of the whole Church, that they enuie the peoples com­moditie. Then, as for mumbling vp the Seruice, the Catholikes doe in theyr most chiefest Churches, sing and saie more distinctly and treatably, then anie pro­testantes doe. And (I feare) if Seruice were so songe in England, as the Domi­nicans, Augustines, Franciscanes, and Carthusians doe vse, many of the moste feruente in sprite, would complaine vp­pon the leisure and treatablenes, that were taken in it.

Fourthely the Latine is no strange or barbarouse tongue, as being the most cō ­mon in this west parte of the world, and one of the three principall and lerned tongues.

Pope Iulius doth euidently forbyd,Apolog.that a Priest in ministring the Commu­nion should dippe the bread in the cup. These men contrary to Pope Iulius de­cree, diuide the bread and dyppe it in the wine.

[Page 62]He doth it so euidently, Confut. 243. that it is not at all, to be seen in his decree. Shewe it, that he forbiddeth the Priest to dippe the bread in the Cuppe (as we vse in our mysteries) and ye shal be honest mē. But he speaketh,De cōsec distin. 2. cūomne not of the maner of the Priestes vsing or receiuing the Sacra­ment, but only of ministring of the hoste dipped in the blud, vnto the peple, which neither at this daie is allowed. You must serue vs no more with suche soppes dip­ped in lies.

Pope Clement saieth,Apolog.it is not lawfull for a Bishop, to deale with both swords. For if thou wilt haue both, saith he, thou shalt deceaue both thy selfe and those that obey thee. Now a daies, ye Pope chalen­geth both swordes, and vseth them both. Wherefore it ought to seeme lesse mar­uail, if that haue folowed which Clemēt saieth, that is, that he hath deceaued both his owne selfe, and those which haue ge­uen eare vnto him.

It is not laufull for you so desperatly to make lies.Con. 245 For how is not this desperatly [Page] done, to say that of any man, which [...] not be proued by him? The Pope sayeth, Si mundialibus curis fueris occupatus, if thou be occupied in worldly cares. And the Apologie maketh him to say, [...] vtrum (que) habere vis, if thou wilt haue both swordes. If Cura signify a sword, and mundialis signifie two, Or if Oc­cupari curis be, to occupi two swords, then hath the Apologie geuen a greate blowe to the Papistes. But whereas no such construction can be made, it hath fought, in this place, not only without [...] sworde, but also without a scabberd: be­cause there is no such word in Pope Cle­mēt, in which they maie put anie of the two swordes that they drawe out of his testimonie.

Nazianzen pronoūced openly y he ne­uer had seen any good end of any coūcel.Apolog.

He spake of the prouincial Councels. And he spake also of his owne time,Confut. 278. i [...] which, heretikes did commonly deceaue prīces, ād by force set vp their new deui­ces. But he was not so vnwise, as to mis­like [Page 63] with Generall Councels, or to geaue an example to the posteritie, of extreme and vnreasonable disobedience.

In old time when the Church of God (if we wil compare it with their Church) was very wel gouerned,Apolog.both elders & Deacōs, as saieth Cypriā, & certaine also of the common people were called vnto Councelles, and made acquainted with ecclesiasticall matters.

What were these, certain of the peo­ple, whō ye would proue, by S. Cypriā, to haue ben called to Coūcels? By this word certaine, you signifie, that there was an order takē, who should come, who should not come. And you make your Reader to cōceiue, that out of the cōmon people, som were chosen, which should be present at Coūcels, as though that had bene ma­teriall in the Primitiue Church.

But S. Cypriā saith no such thing, that any at al of the people,Cypr. in Senten­tiis Con. Carthaginēsis. were called to the Councell, but only this, that when manie Byshopes, at the first daye of September, were assembled together at Crathage, with their Priestes and [Page] Deacons, the most part of the people were also present. But who sent [...] them? Or who thought theyr presence necessary? or how make you, the presence of the most parte, to be, a calling o [...] certeine of the people? By like reason you might say, that in al causes, where ei­ther a spiritual or temporal lorde is exa­mined, the people are called to the hea­ring of it, because they are very prone to vnderstand newes, and are not forbydde [...] to stand by, and here what is done in o­pen Courte.

At the commyng of Christ,Apolog.of God his worde, of the ecclesiastical doctrine, and of the ful destruction of Niniue, and of that most beautiful harlotte, then shal the people which heretofore had ben cast in a [...]raunce vnder theyr masters, be raised vp, and shal make haste to goe to the mountaines of Scripture.

I note,Confut. .331. in this testimony of S. Hierom, your lieing sprit [...], and sprity she spite. For whereas he speaketh, not of the Church of Rome, but of the vniuersall state of the [Page 64] world which is signified by Niniue, and whereas you care not what come of the world, so that the church of Rome may be defaced: of that, which was but one in S. Hierome, you haue made two things, and turne that one, which is altogeather of your owne making, to the setting furth of your procedinges.

For S. Hierom speaketh of the destru­ction of Niniue, In com. in Nah. cap. 3▪ speciosissimae quondā meritricis, of Niniue which was once a most beautiful ha [...]lot: and you make him to speake of Niniue, & speciosissi­mae meretricis, of Niniue, ād the most beautiful harlot, as though that Niniue were one thing, and the beutiful harlot were an other. Yet because this was not plaine enough for your purpose, you geue S. Hierome the spirite of prophesie. And verely you thinke he ment to foretell of the most Gorgeouse harlot Babilō: So that the beutiful harlot must not be vnderstanded now of Niniue peculiarly (as S. Hierome applieth it) but of the [Page] whore of Babilon. Which by the inter­pretation of the whorish heretikes is the See of Rome.

Iudge now whether this be to inter­pret S. Hierom, or to make a tale of their owne, by the gifte of theyr lieing Sprite.

Frō thēce sayth S. Cypriā spring schi­smes & sects,Apolog.because mē seke not y head, & haue not theyr course to the Fountaine of the Scriptures, and keepe not y rules geauen by the heauenly teacher.

Where hath S. Cyprian these words? Or where speaketh he of the fountaines of the Scripture? Confut. .347 Or the Original of truthe: Of seeking to an head: Of the doctrine of the Heauenly teacher. He speaketh in the treatise De simplici­tate Praelatorum, or vnitate Ecclesiae, and he bringeth al those three pointes to this end, that Christe made Peter the head of his Church. But of those foun­taines of Scriptures, we cā not tel whe [...] he speaketh, and we knowe you so wel by this tyme, that we can not beleue you, except ye shew it.

[Page 65] The Euangelistes and the Apostles & Prophetes sayinges shew vs sufficient­ly,Apolog.what opinion we ought to haue of the will of God.

This is a true sayinge,Confut. .313. yet Theodorete speaketh not of the wil of God generally, but,lib. 1. ca. 7▪ [...], of the Godhead. For the controuersie was then, betwene the Catholiks and Arrians, about the Con­substantialitie of God the Sonne with his Father: And therefore interprete him better, or vse not his Authoritie.

The 5. Chapiter, declaring how Coun­cels are belyed and abused in the Apologie of the Church of England.

According to the iudgment of the Ni­cen Councel,Apolog.we say, that the Bishop of Rome hath no more iurisdiction ouer the Church of God, than the rest of the Patriarkes of Alexandria or Antiochia haue.

[Page]The Canon is:Conf. 50. Let the auncient cu­stome continue in force, whiche he is it Egypt, Libya and Pētapoli, that the bi­shope of Alexād [...]ia haue power ouer them all, for asmuch as the Bishope o [...] Rome hath thus vsed. In these words, (for asmuch as the Bishoppe of Rome hath thus vsed) appeareth manifestlie the prerogatiue of the Bishoppe of Rome, as from whose maner and custome they take an example of theyr doeinges.

For if it should be so vnderstanded, that because the Bishoppe of Rome hath power ouer the coūtrie about him, there­fore the Bishope of Alexandria, and not the Bishope of Antiochia, should [...]ule E­gypt, Libya, and Pentapoly: that hangeth no better togeather, than if you should say, let the Bishop of Canterbury be Archbishop of Yorkeshire or Ireland, because the Bishoppe of Rome hath power ouer the Countreies about him. And all­thoughe this Argument maie seeme to conclude à Simili, thus (as, the Bishoppe [Page 66] of Rome ruleth his Countrie, so let eue­rie Metropolitane in like maner beare rule ouer his owne Countrie) yet to ap­pointe by name, either Eygpte to the Bi­shope of Alexandria, or Ireland to the Bishop of Canterbury, that must depēd of some other cause, and not of this, that the Bishop of Rome hath iurisdictiō in Italy.

Now consider the mater as the truth is, that the Bishoppe of Rome hath su­preme authoritie emong al Bishopes, and then it foloweth by good reason, that the Bishop of Alexandria shall rule Egypt, because the Bishop of Rome hath so vsed. That is, because it is so apointed and so receiued at Rome, that Aegypte, Libya and Pētapolis should perteine to the Bi­shoppe of Alexandria: therefore let that order continue.

And this is the meaning of the Ni­cene Councell, and this maketh for the Popes Supremacy, and this proueth you to belye the Nicene Coūcel, which hath not at al, any such wordes as you mention, [Page] that he hath, no more Iurisdiction o­uer the Churche, than the rest of the Patriarches.

The Councel of Carthage,Apolog.did cir­cumspectely prouide, that no Bishoppe shoulde be called, either the highe Bi­shope, or Chiefe Priest.

The Councell doth not say (No Bi­shope) but,Conf. 53. A Bishop of a first See, shal not be called Chiefe of Priestes or high­est Priest. For whereas there be other priestes besides in the world, which are not subiect vnto his see: reason it is, that his title extend it selfe to no more than those that are vnder his Iurisdiction. Al­so this Canon was for the Bishopes of the prouinces of Aphrica. And last of all it extendeth it selfe, only to the first sees, which are many according to the num­bre of Countries, and not to the Aposto­like See, and chiefe aboue all, which is but one.

The Councel of Nice,Apolog.as is alleaged by some in greeke, plainly forbiddeth vs [Page 67] to be basely affectiouated or bent toward the Bread and Wine, whiche are sette before vs.

This disproueth nothinge at all the real presence of Christ in the Sacramēt, Conf. 108 especiallie if you would haue added that whiche foloweth in the verie selfe same sentence, and not haue clipped so wor­thie a Councell. For it foloweth thus: But lyfting vp our minde, lette vs by faithe, vnderstand, on that holy table to be laied the lābe of God, that taketh away the synnes of the world, which is sacrificed of Priestes, vnbloudelie: and receiuing his preciouse body and bloud verely, let vs beleue these to be the pleadges of our resurrection.

Therefore the Councel in forbidding vs to be baselie affected, intended not to make vs beleue that Christ is in hea­uen onlie, and not also vpon the Aultar.

The old Councell at Rome decreed,Apolog.that no man should come to the seruice saied by a Priest well knowen to keepe a Conucbyne.

[Page]We find no such Canon in the old Ro­maine Councels. But Nicolaus and A­lexander Popes, haue willed, that none should heare the Masse of that Priest, whom he knoweth vndoutedly to kepe [...] Concubine, whereby ye may vnderstand the masse alowed, and the lustes of the Clergie punished, and your mistaking of the Councell corrected.

The olde councell Gangrense,Apolog.com­maundeth, that none should make suche difference betwene an vnmaried Priest & a maried Priest, as he ought to thinke the one more holy than the other for sin­gle life sake.

The wordes be these,Confut. 240. If anie make a difference of a Priest who hath ben maried, as thoughe when he sacrifi­ceth, a man might not communicate with his oblation, accursed be he. The Councell therefore speaketh of suche as were first maried, and afterwardes toke Priesthode vppon them, and not con­trarywise, of such as were first of all pri­stes, [Page 68] and then afterwards did fall to ma­riage. In which poynte the obiection of Catholikes against you, consisteth.

The Councell at Carthage cōmaun­ded,Apolog.nothing to be reade in Christes cō ­gregatiō, but the Canonical Sciptures.

Why reade you then Homelies of your owne making?Conf. 24 [...] But to the matter. The wordes of the councel are these. It hath seemed good vnto vs, that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be red in the Church vnder the name of the holy Scriptures. Therfore it forbiddeth not the reading of other thinges, but in that sort, as they should be commended and vttered for Scripture it selfe. And strait wayes it foloweth in the same de­cree. Let it be lauful also for the pas­siōs and deaths of Martyrs to be read, whē their yerely feasts are kept. Doe you see your lie now, and wil ye lowly cō ­fesse it? Or are ye so froward, that ye wil not see it, or are ye so cunning, that ye cā defend it? Your cōfession or defensiō we [Page] are content te heare, but if you will be blinde, lette others behold and consider, that nothīg but Canonical Scripture, and the, deathes of Martyrs to be rea­den also in the Church, can not both be true and stand togeather.

And beholde whiles I thought this obiection could not possibly be refelled, it was for certainty reported vnto vs here by some that were present at M. Iewels sermō at Poules Crosse the fiftenth of Iu­ly last, that he complained that M. Do­ctor Harding wrōgfully charged the au­thors of the Apologie with this place, as being a manifeste abusing and mangling of the third Coūcel of Carthage. For, sayd he, we alleage not this out of the Coūcel of Carthage, but of the Councel of Hippo.

Did ye so in deede? Is not your Apolo­gie therin against you? Is not the Coūcell of Carthage both named in the Text, and noted in the margent thereof? Your La­tine is thus.In Apol. Ecclesi. Angl. Vetus Concilium Cartha­ginense iubet, ne quid in Sacro coetu­legatur, [Page 69] praeter scripturas Canonicas, ād in the margēt, thus it is noted. Tertiū Carth. ca. 47. And the English interpre­tation hath thus: The old Councel at Carthage cōmaunded nothing to be readen in Christes cōgration, but the Canonical Scriptures: and there lyke­wise in the margent ye put Concil. Car. 3. cap. 47.

How dare ye then so loudly to lie, that ye alleaged the foresaied place out of the Councel of Hippo, and not the Councell of Carthage? It appereth well, that Doctor Harding hath ye vpon the hippe, when to saue your selues from the fall, ye deny your owne words.In his re­ply to D. Cole. And wonder it is, that M. Iewel would euer be the reporter of such an answer,In his re­plie to D Harding .157. whereas himselfe hath vsed this very place of the Coūcel of Car­thage to like effect ād purpose, as ye haue vsed it in your Apology. Especially wher­as there is no Councel of Hippo extant at al, vnto which yet ye refer your selues. Cō ­sider therfore (Indifferent reader) of this [Page] place, and suffer not thy selfe so to be abu­sed, that they shal make thee beleue, that they alleaged not that Councell, whiche thou maiest see with thy owne eyes to be named and quoted in theyr Apologie, and that they folowed the Canons of the Councell of Hippo of whiche they can shewe no Canons at all, that are extant.

In the Councell at Chalcedone,Apolog.& Ciuile Magistrate condemned for Here­tiks by the sentence of his owne mouth, the Bishoppes, Dioscorus, Iuuenal, and Thalasius, and gaue iudgement to put them from that promotion in ye Church.

In what parte of that Councell,Conf. 315. maie one finde this which you reporte? In the thirde Action we doe reade, that Pas­chasius with his two felowes the Legats of the Pope of Rome, pronounced the sentence of condemnation against Dio­scorus, the forme whereof is fully there expressed. How then? Shall we thinke, that one of the Popes Legates was a Ci­uill Magistrate? Or that the Ciuil Magi­strate condemned Dioscorus ageine by [Page 70] the sentence of his own mouth, when he was sufficiently iudged, by the whole Councel of Bishopes? Ye haue manie fet­ches, yet you can not but be conuinced in this place of an impudent lye, or ex­treme folie.

The most that ye might saie (as farre as we can reache) is, that the Ciuile ma­gistrate subscribed vnto the sentence of the Councell, and by his voice also con­demned Dioscorus for an heretike. But this is not inoughe for you, to saue your honesties. For you must declare, that the ciuil magistrat, not only cōdēned them, by his testimonie or assent, but also by his sentence, and not such a sentence only as might concurre with the iudgmētes of the Superiours (lyke as euery bishoppe in a general Councel geueth sentence in causes Ecclesiasticall. But it is included within that one sentēce which the chie­fest in al the Councel do alow and geue) but you must ꝓue, that the ciuil mgistrat gaue the sentēce with his own mouth. [Page] For so ye speake as though he had ben the the best man in the place and president of the Councel.

To this of Dioscorus that ye may aun­swer the more fully, I wil not troble yo [...] with Iuuenal and Thalassius, whome ye haue also belyed in this mater, Bishopes of an other sorte than Dioscorus was, al­though you haue cōdēned them together.

The Sixth Chapiter wherein is noted, how the Apologie belieth and ab­vseth the Scriptures thēselues.

It was saied indifferently to all the Apostles,Apolog.Feed eye.

YOu meane,Conf. 48. I am assured, the one and twēty of S. Iohn, in which chapiter yet, there is no mētion at al, of the plural number, with Feed ye: but, to S. Peter alone feede thou (saieth Iesus) my lambes, feede thou my shepe. Whe­ther haue you a Ghospell not yet knowen to the world, in which Christ saieth [Page 71] indifferently to al his Apostles, feede ye?

Woe vnto you Scribes and Pharseis,Apol. which haue takē away y keies of know­lege, and haue shut vp the kingdome of heauen before men.

The Scripture saying,Conf. 72. that one iote or title of the law shal not passe, vntil all be fulfilled, a changing of the numbre in any place of the Gospel, must not be thought to be vnworth the noting.Lu [...]. 11. Of the keie of knowlege Christ spake, and not of keies in the plural number.

Paule saieth,Apolo.that the tyme should be, when men should not awaie with hol­some doctrine, but be turned backe vnto [...]ables and lyes, and that wythin the very Church.

And that within the very Church? Conf. 20 [...]. Where finde ye these wordes in S. Paul? That men should not away with holsome doctrine, it is to be founde in the fourthe chap. of the seconde to Timothe. And it is verified in all heretikes: but that S. Paul [...]hould referre those wordes to the very Church it selfe, it is impudently attribu­ted [Page] to the Apostle.

And to graunte vnto you as muche as might be, for excuse of your wordes, that in some sense it might be true, that euen within the verie Churche men shoulde not away with holsome Doctrine: that is, that althoughe manie, for theyr vnderstandinge dis­sented not from it, yet in theyr lyuing they shoulde impugne it: Yet, to saye as you doe, that S. Paule dothe expound his woordes of the verie Churche, it is altogeather boldelie, and falselie af­firmed.

God,Apolog.by hys Prophetes often and ernestly commaundeth the King &c. To wryte out the booke of the Lawe for hym selfe.

Ye bring this place to proue,Conf. 303 that tem­poral Princes haue as much to doe with Religion, as Bishoppes and Priestes. For the Kinge (saye you) muste write out the Lawe.Deut. 17. But whie leaue ye out that whiche foloweth, accipiens ex­emplar, [Page 72] takynge the Copie of the Priestes of the Trybe of Leuie? By which woordes it is clearlie perceyued, that it is not in the Kynges handes to meddle with Scriptures, but as he re­ceaueth them of his betters (in that au­thoritie) the Priestes.

King Ioas bridled the riot and arro­gancie of the Priestes.Apol.

We finde no such wordes in the text,Conf. 307 4. Reg. 12.

Iosue receiued cōmaundements,Apolo.spe­cially touching religion.

We haue readen the whole Chapiter Iosue 1.Confut. .305. and we find no suche specialities there, but onelie that he shoulde passe ouer Iordane, And diuide the lande of Promise, and be of good cumforte and strength, with other lyke woordes, all to the Temporall Gouernement of the [...]eople: but, of Religion, Sacrifice, Pray­ing for the people, expounding the Law &c. no one sentence. Yea rather (as it appereth in the first setting of him, in his [Page] office) the scripture saieth expressly, [...] any thing be to be done for this Iosue, Eleazar the Priest shal aske counsel [...] the Lorde. Nu, 27. At his worde (vndoubted­ly at the Priests) he shal goe furth and come in &c. Which of the two then [...] nerer to God, ād worthier by his office? He that speaketh himselfe with God, or he that heareth God his word by any inter­pretatour? He which geaueth the com­maundement, or he which must obey it?

Doe no more so, with the scriptures, ād if none shal let you, to make your own sense vpon them: yet neuer take so much vpon you, to put in the text it self, which is not of the Scripture. And further con­sider, whether this be not to adde and take awaie from the Scripture, to make that of the plural nūber, which is of the singular only: To suppresse those wordes which being put in, doe dissolue the kno [...] of the question: To put that in, whiche is not at al in the text: To alleage sayinges that can not be found: And to miscon­strue [Page 73] sentences that are founde. And then, when you haue considered all this, conferre therewith, that which ye finde in the Apocalipse of S. Iohn, that, If any man adde vnto these things, Apo vl. God shal lay vpon him the plagues that are written in this booke. And if anie man diminishe of the wordes of the booke of this prophecy, God shal take his part out of the booke of life, and out of the holy Citie, and from these things which are writtē in this booke.

The 7. Chapiter, conteining the flat lyes of the Apologie.

There haue ben wittely procured by the Bishop of Rome certaine persons of eloquence enough,Apolog.& not vnlcarned nei­ther, which should put their helpe to his cause now almost desperate.

NAme the Pope which hath pro­cured them:Confut. 9 Name the Persone which haue ben procured, and ye shal either confesse your faultes, or stand [Page] gyltie for two lyes.

Proue also, that he wylely procured ani mē to help his cause: because this word wylely maketh your lye ād slaūder more greeuous. For either you meane, that he did it in d [...]de, and that he would not be sene to doe it, either that he did it boldly and manifestly, but yet vsed a witty and subtil meane vnto it.

Concernīg the first, he neded not to be ashamed to defend his cause. He might boldly without reproch choose any of the lerned ād eloquēt Catholiks for that pur­pose. For, the faith which the whole Churche opēly cōfesseth▪ what dishonesty at al is it, to cōmaund aloud, that the best lerned shuld declare it, and by declaring of it cō ­mēd it, that whē iust cause is geuē of it, it mai be knowē for a truth sufficiētly, pued.

Concernīg the second, it were a small part of policy, to labour by a fancy to per­swade the whole world in a falsitie.

Princes desirous to restrain ye gospel sought many wayes,Apolog.but preuailed no­thing: & now almost ye whole world doth [Page 74] begyn to opē their eies to behold y light.

What place hath your gospel in Spain?Conf. 1 [...] What place in Italy? What successe hath your gospel in France? Whē Lady Marie was once proclaimed Queene, how pre­uailed your preachīg? Did ye not flee be­yond sea into free Cities? And why into those more thā into ani other? but because ye preuaile not with Princes, but such as cal you to their fauour, of whō yet ther are so few, and so weak in al Christēdom that in the rekning they make a litle somme. And now (say you) the whole world al­most, doth begyn to open their eyes. A worshipful begining after xv [...] yearis. But why say ye not (without almost) that al the whole world begīneth to opē their eyes? You haue a cōscience (I trow) in ma­king a lye and therfore you add almost. How much thē lacketh I pray you? If Lo­ [...]ā, Paris, Bonony, Padua, Salamāca, Cōplu [...]ū and other great Vniuersities, but smal [...]ortiōs of the whole, if these were lighte­ned by your gospel, would ye put out your almost?

[Page]What meane ye by this almoste? Per­chance all is ouercomed with you, sauing Rome itselfe, and the small Cities about it. Nay, haue ye not greate and Princely states, (as of Florence, Vrbine, Genua, Ferrara, Millaine, Venice, Treuers, Men­tes, Colone, Salisburg, and the Catholike Cantones) And sundrie Countries (as Bauarie, Sauoy, Burgundie, Loraine, Brabrant, Flaunders, Holland, Artoys, Henaut, Friseland, Guelderland, Cleue­land, Prussia, Carinthia,) And many I­landes, (as Sicilia, Corsica, Sardinia, Maltha and the Zelāds) And many king­doms (as Naples, Frāce, Spaine, Pole, Bo­hemie, Hungary, and Portugale) and the Empire it selfe, which see well enough how darke your gospel is? But no matter for these small peeces.

What say you then to the new Indi­ans, which alone are greater, than all, whom we haue rekened? If you lacke but them alone, haue you all the world all most? No: This is so great a lye, that [...] [Page 75] might turne it backeward, and say: the whole world almost doth defie your Gospel.

All theyr trauayle hath in a manner come to naught.Apolog.

How say you to the late general Coūcel,Conf. 15▪ which had so wōderful good successe, and which is so executed in Rome it selfe, that not only the Bishopes, but Cardinals also are sent to theyr cures, and goe obe­diently vnto them.

No bodye driuing it forwarde, and without anie wordly helpe.

King Harry the eygth then, is no body with you, the Duke of Saxonie, Lant­graue of Hesse, King Edwarde the sixth, the Villaines of Boheme, the Hugonites of France. &c. Al these then are no body.

On the other syde our cause againste the wil of Emperours.

If Charles alone had not geuen more to clemencie (which ouercommeth, most of all, noble personages when they haue the greatest victorie) thā to iustice: wher [Page] had the Dukes of Saxony and other your defendours bene?

From the beginning against the wills of so many Kinges.

Euery Anabaptist in Brabāt or Scotlād, liueth against the Prīces wil, because he generally wisheth euery heretike out of the way, for feare of infecting the good Chistiās: yet ther is another wil in Prīces, which if they would folow, no heretike could haue peeped vp in all Christēdom, but he shuld haue ben quikly dispatched.

In spite of the Popes.

That is true in one sense, because in deed very spite hath moued diuers mē to refuse his authority: but in an other it is false. For if he (for exāple) had stomaked the matter, he had held them for excō ­municate which should haue the name of Kīg Hēry in their bokes, like as on the cō ­trary side it was high treason to haue the name of Papa in any writing or Calēder.

And almost maugre the head of al men, hath taken encrease.

[Page 76]Here again commeth in almost. No, if men had resisted it in deede, it had neuer ben receiued. But partly through couetise of Church goods, partly through werines of straight liuing partly through hatred of superiour powers, and partly through curiosity to heare what newes came out of Germanie, the merchandise of heretikes had an open vent.

And by litle & litle spread ouer into al countries, and is come at the length euē to princes Courtes and palaces.

Neuer say at length. For euen from the begining therof it was in the Courts of Princes, as of King Henrie the viij. Duke of Saxony &c. And by plaine force of law, the greater part of our owne country is kepte yet stil in it.

The holy Fathers did alway fight a­gainst the heretikes with no other force,Apolog.then with the holy Scriptures.

It is false,Confut. 27. as it appeareth by the first Nicene Coūcel, declaring the cōsubstan­tiality of God the Sōne with his Father. The second Councell at Constantinople, [Page] resorting to the writinges of theyr for fa­thers for profe of the Godhead of the ho­lie Ghost. The Councel at Ephesus, defi­ning our blessed Ladie to be Deiparam, the Mother of God, and not only Christi­param, the mother of Christ: And the Councel at Calchedon where the fathers cried out aloud against Eutyches (denie­ing the two natures in Christe, and as­king in what Scriptures laie the two na­tures) Ea quae sunt Patrum teneantur. Those things which the Fathers haue thought, let them be kepte.

If there had bene any whiche would be but a looker on and abstaine from the holy Cōmunion,Apolog.him did the old fathers and Bishops of Rome in the Primatiue Church, before priuate Masse came vp, excommunicate as a wicked person and as a Pagane.

How proue ye this?Con. 92. Marie out of a de­cree of Calixtus, or as ye should say Ana­cletus. Yet he speketh not of al the people, but of the clergy onli▪ which he apointeth to attend vpon the Bishop at the aultar: [Page 77] which are to saie, seuen, fiue, or three Deacons, likewise, Subdeacons, and other ministers. Neither are they excommuni­cated if they doe not receiue, but willed to be kept without the Church dores: a far lesse punishment, so far furthe at the least, that it proueth you a lyer.

Our aduersaries at this day haue vio­lently thrust out and quite forbydden the holy Communion.Apolog.

They haue so forbidden it,Conf. 9 [...]. that seeing th [...] slewth of the common people, they haue made an expresse law, that whosoe­uer doth not communicate at Easter, shal not be taken for a Christian.

And bysides, if it be to far for you to goe to Rome it selfe, whereas the exam­ples of the primitiue Churche continue in theyr best practise, you maie aske of the Churches of Flāders and Brabāt, and if there be not more receiuing at euerie principal feast in the yere, thā is church for church, in the whole yeare with you, then let me be reproued. And this ofte [Page] receauing of Catholike people, can not stand wyth a violent thrustyng out, and a forbidding the holy communi­on, as you belie the Clergie.

Now, if by the holy communion ye meane not, the receiuing of the Sa­crament as Catholykes vse, but recei­uinge vnder bothe kindes, neither in that sence speake you truely. For no violence was vsed whiles one kind only was ministred, no commaundement driuing the Christians at the first vnto it, but their owne willes and deuotions allowing it: neither, by anie later Canon of the Churche are both kindes so quite forbidden, but that vpon good aduise and charitable consideration, both may be graunted.

The Bishoppes of Rome doe carie the Sacramentall bread aboute,Apolog.vppon an amblyng horse whither so euer them selues iourney.

What if he would ryde twelue miles or seuen miles out of Rome,Confut. 111. doth he ca­rie [Page 78] the Sacrament with him vppon an horse? No forsothe. Ergo not whether so euer he iourneieth.

Againe, howe doth he carie it? In lyke sorte, as noble men carie theyr ne­cessaries with them vpon Sūpter horses, or packe vp in casketes trūkes or males anie of theyr singular and pretiouse ie­welles? Surelie the simple and plaine Reader, maie thinke vpon the credite of your woordes, that the Pope when he rydeth out of towne, carieth the Sacra­ment inclosed vp with him, and set vp­pon some horse, as though it were per­teyninge to his household prouision.

Yet the truthe is farre otherwyse: for in solemne and greate processions one­lie, the Sacrament is cariede about.

But, I truste, a Procession, is none of the Popes iourneys, neither muste his holines be sayed to ryde out of towne, whē he goeth about the Cytie in his Bishop­pelie Ornamentes for praiers sake onelie and deuotion.

[Page] Now when such high feasts do come, the mōstrāce or pix for the Sacramēt being verie greate and massy, is sette in deede vpon an horse, not as a cariage of the Po­pes, but as conteining a Sacrament of the Christians. Which, that it might be the better in syght, and with more ease caried about, therefore hath it pleased the deuotion or inuention of no euil mē, to prepare a fayre horse to carie vppon his backe the pix in which that bodie is kepte vnder the forme of bread, whiche disdayned not to ride vpon an Asse,Matt. 21▪ whē it came into Hieruselem in visible forme of fleash.

They say,Apolog.and sometyme do perswade fooles, that they are able by theyr Masses to distribute and apply to mens commo­ditie all the merites of Christe his death, yea although many tymes the partyes thinke nothing of the mater, and vnder­stand ful litle what is done.

Name them that doe saie so,Confut. 115. and you shalbe discharged of a lie, and they puni­shed for their words. For the Catholiks a­low [Page 79] not these phrases: we are able to dis­tribute by our Masses &c. As who should say, the Priest were no more a sin­full mā, nor an hygh minister, at the most vnder God, but were in dede a certaine God, and had in his owne power to plea­sure whom he listeth: which is nothing so. For if we shal consider the acte of the Priest as it is his owne Psonal, so doth he according to his deuoute intention, not by authoritie, but by supplication, obtaine a vertue and influence to come frome Christ, to them for whom he specially of­fereth. [...] But himselfe also being a poore wretche and compassed with infirmitie, he neuer learned of the Church so proud­ly to speake as, that, I am able to do this by my Masse.

Againe, if it were true, and if the Church did so teache, that the Priest is able of his own self without asking leaue, to make applications of Christes merits, (which in dede is not so) yet to say, that he maie applie al the merites of Christes [Page] passion, is altogeather impossible. For whereas there is no proportion betwen a finite thinge and an infinite: the Priest which hath a limited Authoritie, and such a power as hath an end, how can he stretche it to the distributing of all the merites of Christes death, whiche are endelesse and infinite? Therefore I saie discharge your selues.

And concerning that absurditie by which you would encrease your readers indignation against our cause, saying, that we distribute and applye Chri­stes merites when the parties thinke nothing on the mater, that is not so vn­reasonable, as the vnwise brother would thinke it. Whereas the praiers of the En­glish congregation (if in dede God acce­pted them) maie procure strength in the Lorde, vnto the brothers of France or Germanie, although they were either a sleping or drinking.

It is a shameful parte and ful of infi­delitie,Apolog.that we see euerie where used in [Page 80] the Churches of our Aduersaryes, that they wil haue innumerable sortes of me­diatours.

Innumerable. Conf. 12 [...] This is one plaine lye. For the Churche knoweth but two, the one when the party which commeth in betweene to entreate and make peace, maie by equalytie or Authoritie, haue to doe with both, of whiche sorte Ihesus Christ alone is a mediatour, being per­fite God nothing inferiour to his Father, and perfite Man, nothing disdaining a man: The other when by waye of re­queste onelie and by intercession, the freindes and acquaintaunce of both si­des speake a good worde and fauorable, for the partie distressed, vnable by them selues to commmaunde or woorke anie thing, but by the fauor and especiall grace of him whiche hath the better. Of this sorte are all the Saintes of heauen a [...]d al good men in earth.

And poore men can not tell to whiche Saynct it were best to turne them first.Apolog.

[Page] Blessing to your hart, that you care for the poore, emong whom I neuer hard of anie, which was in the doubt, of whiche you speake. But if it be so in anie, it maie quickly be told him, that he study not lōg about the mater, but praie generally in short wordes, and say: O all ye Saintes of God pray for me.

What would these men haue saied,Apolog.when in al Councels newe ordres & new decrees continually were deuised?

Marie we would haue stoode to the Catholike Coūcels,Confut. 186. in which new Credes from the old were neuer made, but the old made more plaine, by expounding in plainer words the faith that was before.

Some of the Fryers,Apolog.and Monkes, put a greate holynes in eating of fyshe, and some in eating of hearbes, some in wearing of shewes, and some wearing of Sandales, some goeing in a linen gar­ment, and some in wollen.

If by some ye meane special persons,Confut. .143. I can not tel what, nor where: When ye name them to vs, or wil send your chari­table [Page 81] letters to them, I warrant you they shal be spoken withal. But whereas this appertaineth not to the common cause of the Church, or the cōtrouersie and questiō betwene vs, what Frier Tucke, or Don Roger doe thinke priuatly, therefore if by the worde one, ye meane the whole or­ders of Friers and Mōkes, and make this sense, that some orders of Friers put a great holines in fish, ād some in flesh &c. Then doe most shamefully and vilie slan­der them.

For S. Bernardan Abbate instructeth his Monkes after this sorte: Corporum conuersio si sola fuerit, Serm. 2. in capit [...] Ieiunij. nulla erit: that is, the conuersion of the bodies if it be nothing but that, it is nothing. And by conuer [...]ion of the bodies, he meaneth (as it foloweth in the sermon) the shauing of Monkes, the cotē, the Rule of theyr fastes, and apointed howres of singing. And Pe­trus a Soto, the diuinitie Reader in Ox­forth, in Quene Maries tymes, himself being a Dominican Frier, and keeping [Page] himselfe faith [...]ully within his order, yet he made no such accompt of externall thinges, as you falsely sclaunder Monkes and Friers to make. But as all learned men doe, when they write of the true worshipping of God▪ so he expresly sayth with the Apostle,Tract. de inst [...] Sac. Iect. 5. That Corporal exer­cise is profitable to little but Pietie and deuotiō is profitable to al thinges. [...]. Tim. 4. And againe.Rom. 14 The kingdome of God is not meate and drinke, b [...]t Iustice and peace, and ioy in the [...]olygost. Bring you furth now on the [...] side that Religious mē put an holines in such externall ceremonies or rules, a [...] you spe­cifie.

Zuinglians and Lutherans vary not betwixt them selues vpon the principles & foūdations of our Religiō ▪ [...] God,Apolog. 1.nor Christ, nor the Holygost, nor of the meanes to iustification, nor yet euerlasting life, but,

2 Upon one only question, which is nei­ther weighty nor greate:

3 Neither mistrust we or make any dout at all,

[Page 82]But they will shortly be agreed.4

They vary about the body of Christ,Confut. [...] the one confessing a true presence thereof in the Sacrament: The other withstanding it, and faining, Christe to be present by figure onlie: This is one.

Neither in the Sacrament only doe 2 they differ,Nicolaus Gallus in the sibus & hypo. but also in questions of the law, of the Ghopel, of iustification and of good workes, as Nicolaus Gallus a Lutherane protesteth against them.

Nowe, whether the question of Chri­stes 3 presence be weightie or no, let him be iudge whiche heareth Christ saying, Nisi manducaueritis, Ioan. 6. excepte ye eate the flesh of the sonne of man, and drinke his bloud, ye shal not haue lyfe in you, &c. This is the third.

This which foloweth I note not as a lie,4 [...] as a sensible and vain foly▪ for the [...] thēselues striuīg euery day more ād more th'one against th' other, ād (as Ams­ [...]orphiꝰ a Lutherā witnesseth) their cōtradictiōs beīg vnable by any possibility to be [Page] made agree togeather. How ful of vaine hope are you, which haue so litle doubt of theyr concorde, that ye trust they will be agreed shortly?

They haue throwē vs into prison,Apolog.in­to water, into fyer, and haue embrued themselues in our bloud, not because we were either Adulterers, or Robbers, or Murtherers, but only for that we con­fessed the Ghospel of Ihesu Christ, and put our confidence in the lyuing God.

To speake of the holines and honesty of your behauiour,Conf. 152 I truste to haue a better tyme, in the meane season, I aske you quietly, was W. Flower put to death only for his confidence put in the lyuinge God, Act. and Monu­ments. pa. 1129. and not for striking and woūding a Priest, as he was ministring the Sacra­ment vnto the people?

Our purpose here ys not to take in hand at this present to bring to light and open to the world,Apolog.those thinges which were meete rather to be syd and buried with the workers of them. It be seemeth neither our Religion, nor our modestye, nor our shamefastenes.

[Page 83] Ye lye like hypocrites as ye are:Conf. 154 doe ye not tarie longer in speaking the worst ye can of the Catholikes, than in any other common place of your modest and shame­fast booke? Doe ye not put in writing most shamefull thinges, either not done at al, or done so longe a go, that now they were hid and buried? Doe ye not bring to Englishmens eares the vnknowē prā ­kes of foreners? Doe ye not oft repeate Diasios and Cassios, as though it stoode with modestie, to iterat, and exaggerat such tales? But such is your Religion▪ your modestie, and your shamefastenes, that it beseemeth you wel enough.

Let the Uicar of Christ and the Head of the Church remember,Apolog.that they be of his canonists which haue tought y people that fornication betwene single folke ys no synne.

It wilbe harde for him to remember it,Confut. because he neuer heard it or read it. And as hard it wil be to heare or reade that, which was neuer spoken or writen [Page] of a Canoniste, proue ye nowe, that euer anie Canonist hath taught as you report.

Iohannesde Magistris, to whom you refer vs in your margent, can not be found to haue anie such wordes. Per­chance ye would saie, Martinus de Ma­gistris, whiche vas no Canoniste, but af­ter the fasshion of Scholemen, asking the question whether simple fornication be a deadly sinne, maketh obiections first against the truthe, and afterwarde refelling them, concludeth most expres­slie thus: Simple fornication excludeth from the kingdome of God: Ergo it is a mortal sinne.

Now if anie Iohannes de Magistris, vnknowen yet to the worlde, canne be brought furth of you to saue your honesty in so impudent a lye, yet excepte ye can proue, that he was one of the, Popes own Canonistes, ye can not but be giltie of one [...]ie at the least in this place, which yet I dare say shal be forgeuē you, if ye cā but proue, that euer any Canonist hath so cō ­cluded.

[Page 84] Goe to now, and proue your selues true mē: ād burdē the Popes Canonists with alowing of that which is expressly con­demned by them.Apolog.

Let him remēber they be of his owne which haue decreed, y a Priest ought not to be put out of his cure for fornication.Confut.

You must brīg him the place, or it is not possible he shuld find it. for your marginal note willeth him to seke can. 3. 9. 7. wher no such thīg is, and the paragraph, Quia, which speaketh of such only as are not to be promoted to holy orders, because of theyr Bygamie. But the trueth is, that by al Canons old and new,Can. Si quis Ep▪ the faulte is punished. For by the old, were he Bishop, Priest,Dit. 81▪ or Deacō, he was deposed and put to penaūce: by the later the party offendīg had tene yeres penaunce inioyned him.

Let him remēber also,Apolog.how Cardinall Campegius, Albertus Pighius, & others many moe of his own, haue taught, that y Priest which keepeth a concubine doth lyue more holily & chastly, then he which hath a wife in matrimonie.

[Page] If ye were Cardinalles to his holines,Confut. no doubt ye would do him great seruice, which being so far out of office, and farre from Italy, take such care to bring thin­ges to his remembrance. But doe not ye not forget your selues in the meane tyme by affirming so boldly, so many [...]yes? Cam­pegius ād Pighius do not say that, which you reporte of them.

For of two euilles, there is no one the better, both being euil, but one is lesse euil than the other. A cōcubine with a priest is naught, and an open harlot (no mater though ye cal her his wife) is worse. They saie not, that to keepe a cōcubine is more holily and chastely done (as though any holines were in it at al) neither that to haue a wife in matrimonie is euill (as though mariage were not honorable) but of these two foule faultes, a Priest to keepe a secrete harlot, which goeth vn­d [...]r the name and pretense of a necessary seruaunt, or the same to professe that she is his yoke felow, and to take the parish to [Page 85] witnes, that she is his, at bed ād at bord: the first is euil, the seconde is worse: the first hath not put al shame asyde, the se­conde is impudent: the first may come of infirmitie, the seconde wil haue it allo­wed by Authoritie.

I trust he hath not yet forgotten,Apolo▪that there be many thousandes of harlotes in Rome, & that him selfe doth gather yere­ly of the same harlotes vppon a thyrtie thousand durkattes by the way of annu­al pension: Neither can be forget, howe him selfe doth maintaine brothel houses, and by a most fylthie lucre doth fylthylie and lewdely serue his owne luste.

Speake ye by report of others,Confut. or by ex­perience? If by report, were they that re­ported it, somewhat skilful in the mater or no? If they were not, but spake also by reporte, standeth this with your pur­pose? and doth this beseeme your Re­ligion, your modestie, your shame fast­nesse, which ye acknowledge in your selues, so absolutely to obiecte so greate a mater, to so great a Bishop, vpō an heare [Page] saie onlie.

But if they spake of knoweledge, howe came they by it? Sate they in commission in Rome it self, and called the harlottes before them by authoritie? But how were that either tolerable or reasonable; in a strange Citie to plaie the Magistrate, or to labour in the numbring of harlottes?

Or went they from house to house with a pryuie serche, making a worthie occupation for Ghospellers to be curious in? Or through acquaintaunce with whores and bawdes, was the whole ac­compte without further labour brought vnto them? They are not to be accepted for honeste witnesses, whiche are so wel acquainted, or so muche fauored of those naughtypackes. Perchaūce as they wēt vp and doun in the streets, they nūbred cer­taine scores of harlottes. There was a simple eye then I trow, and a deuout pur­pose in the marker of such occurrentes. Yet if it were so, howe gather they, that manie thousands of harlots are in Rome, [Page 86] because they obserued manie here and there to goe in the Citie?

What so euer shalbe aunswered, it will be replied, that they them selues are not far from harlottes, which being no Com­missioners for the purpose, so diligently obserue such proceedings, and that they which couete after such knowledge, doe feede in theyr myndes vppon no better than carren. And as it maie be seene by theyr apparell, distincte from honest women, that Curtesans are in that popu­lous City, so to beable to say it constantly, that many thousands of them are therin placed, it must procede of experiēce, And it should not be reported in the hearīg of Christians, excepte it were euidētly de­clared. Yea neither thē also, if we right­ly vnderstood our Sauiour sayng:Ioan. 8. Lethim which is without syn emōg you cast a stone first at her. Wherfore this of many thousād harlots in Rome shal stād for one­lie, ād he which dare come forth ād ꝓue it in dede, shal stād to defence of his honesti.

[Page] Now concerning the yearely pension which the Pope (you saie) gathereth of them: how great is it? Mary vppon a thirty thousand duckates. And howe manie harlotes are there? Manie thou­sandes you saie. But I aske how manie? Make a gheasse as you do vpō the annual pēsion gathered of them. Are there think you, thirty thousande harlottes or there­about? Nay are ther three or foure thou­sands of So many as you would haue seme to be there? Surely within this number you can not welcome, because ye affirme that manie thousandes are there.

Goe to then, if there can not by your accompt be lesse than three thousand (for of two thousand only no man euer sayeth there are many thousandes) euery one paieing ten ducketes by the yeare, the whole pension maie easely be made vp. And thinke you, that any man disposed to make a vātage, would gather no more of such persons, as so lightly come by their mony? If but three thousand tippling hou­ses [Page 87] were in anie Citie, a very fauorable Prince would not make so litle of them (for excises &c.) as thirty thousand duc­kates by the yeare. But if he were a coue­tous and greedie Prince, hauing suche a foule companie in his Citie of whome he might take large exactions euen for iu­stice sake, would he be contented with an yearely pension of so litle value? So few thousand duckattes agree not with so manie thousand harlottes: and there­fore ye shal doe wel to make areuew, and mend the lye where it is.

You procede further as it were to a greater mater: which if it be so, ye make a third lye, although in deede I suppose, that it is but the second lye in this place, set more abrode ād dilated. For he main­tayneth (you saie) brothel houses, &c. How proue ye that? I think ye wil tel vs here again of the thirty thousād duckats, specially because ye speke also of a most fi [...] ­thy lucre, to which duckats we haue āswe­red before. And now we say further, that [Page] he taketh no annual vantage of harlotes at al, but such as commeth from euerie one that dwelleth in the Citie, by aunciēt tribut and custome.

But you saie further, he maintaineth them (I would ye were so maintained) But by what meanes? Defendeth h [...] theyr cause, as he would the causes of ho­nest persons? Doth he prouoke them by immunities and priuileges to tarie? Is he offended when anie good man either mercifully doth conuerte them to a bet­ter kinde of lyfe, or iustlie punishe them, for offending againste the Lawe? Wil ye see how they be maintained?

They muste not dwell in haunted or great places, but in bycorners and lanes. They must not ryde abrode in coches or chariotes, but walke a foote in the strea­tes. They muste not goe in apparell all lyke other women, but weare a shoorte vayle of one certaine colour vppon theyr heades, that they maie be knowen, for harlottes. And if they lyke strum­pets [Page 88] doe offende against anie of these or­ders, they paie a greate forfait.

Of whiche pointe if ye will gather, that the Pope serueth therein his owne lust and lucre: what men are ye so to per­uerte that, for whiche praise is due vn­to him? Shoulde he not punishe them at all? Or in punishing them, should he not doe it to the terror and example of others? Ye will aunswere perchaunce, that he shoulde haue none suche in the Citie. Obiecte then onelie that against him, and slander him no more with pro­curing aduantage in maintaininge of whores, nor defame hym no more that he seeketh his owne lucre by settinge greate Forefaites, or trybutes vppon hē.

And then cōcerning the permitting of thē in the City,If Canel [...] ād sinkes becōmendable, thē let M. le­vvel crie on (as he did in his [...]ast sermon against him) that M. Harding vvil defend [...] cause of harlottes. I aunswere you, that in temporal gouermente it is not euil in re­specte of a worse which els would follow, to lette harlottes and bawdes * lye with dishonor ād shame in the sinkes of great [Page] Cities like as Minstrels, Daunsers, Iug­glers, Vsurers, and other of vnhoneste and vile behauiour of life are suffered to remaine euen in Lōdon it selfe, and that when al the Superintendents of Englād shal be at theyr conuocation.

And this I speake touching ciuill po­licie: for concerning the spiritual gouer­nement, there is in Rome daily and ve­hement preaching against them.

In the beginning of Lent, and before Easter the Pope doth solemly accurse thē.

Besides this, they shal make no testa­ment before theyr death, nor afterwards be buried emong Christians, except they did repent in tyme of theyr life. How say you then? Proue not these things in the iudgemēt of an indifferent man, that the Pope wil haue no harlots at al in Rome, if either experience of ciuil policy should perswade it, or force of his spiritual sword and sentence, could winne it? And yet dare you so lewdly to write, that he main­teineth brothel houses. &c.

[Page 89] Of a monasterie, made by the blessed Pope Pius Quartus charges and charity, in which the Harlottes conuerted from their wicked trade of euill life, through publike preaching or priuate exhorting, should be receaued and kept in all hone­stie: of such a house and maintenaunce of them to such a life, we haue hearde, and they which haue ben at Rome, are certaine. But of any procuring of their contynuaunce in their filthe and harlo­trie, you haue heard perchaunce, but you should not haue so stoutly obiected it, be­fore ye had bene more sure of it.

Bring furth your Author, that we may see whether ye be not light of cre­dit, Or proue your owne sayings true, if your selues be the Authours, that ye be not conuicted of impudencie.

If these things would haue pleased vs (that is,Apolo.harlottes, brothel houses. &c) we needed not to haue departed from these mens felowship, emōg whom such enormities be in their chiefe pride and price.

[Page] I would this were true.Confut, 170. For then no doubt, but if ye were in company of good Catholikes, such as be as sorie as you for enormities, and cōplaine thereof as har­tely as you, though not so vndiscretely: ye would repent you of your lying and slan­dering, and heare Masse with a good wil and deuotiō, and pray to Saints, and pray for the soules departed, and obey the B. of Romes authority▪ Which Bishop, at this present, is a man so diuine and excellent, (as appeareth most euidently, by his ex­pelling of deuils out of possessed bodies, by expelling the Courtesans out of the City, by correcting al disorders in the Court of Rome, by ꝓuidīg for those partes of Chri­stendome, which either haue no Bishops, and then he sēdeth them some, as of late he did into the Indians: or had Bishops, and enioyed them not, in which case he hath sent them home to their Countries) that if in deed, ye had the mīd to returne to the Catholike Church, ye might neuer better doe it, than now, when the heade [Page 90] therof is so wōderful for his holines, forti­tude of mind, vprightnes, and Charitie.

But ye haue a mad fansie to belye your selues ād say, that ye had no cause to de­part from vs, if enormities of life wold haue pleased you: whereas in deede as lōg as the masse ād the Pope be regarded, you cannot abide our cōpanie, though the maners of the Catholikes were neuer so well amended. Now if ye dare be bolde with your selues and say, that ye be so per­suaded as ye be not: take hede yet, what ye report of others, and think not, it is e­nough to say it, and neuer to proue it, that such enormities are with vs, in theyr chiefe pride and prince.

Paule the fourth not many monethes sence,Apolog.had at Rome in prison, certain Au­gustine friers, many Bishops, & a greate nūbre of other deuout m [...]n, for religions sake, he racked them, and tormēted them.

The truth is,Con. 171 he caused a Publike E­dict to be made, charging all such as were gone out of their religion and habite, to [Page] returne againe to their house and Order. This cōmaundement preuailed with ma­ny, which cōsidering their dissolute liues, came willingly vnder obedience and or­der. Others which passed not for the Popes commaundement or their former vowe, being apprehended were put in prison, that vexation might geue them vnderstanding, and that disobedience shoulde not escape vnpunished euen in their bodyes. As for racking and tor­menting them, that is one: and that ma­ny Bishops were so handled, that is an o­ther: or that they suffred for religiōs sake and not for their owne disobedience, that is a third fowle lye.

Although we be not ye men we ought and professe to be,Apolog.yet whosoeuer we be, compare vs with these men, and euen our owne life and innocencie will sone proue vs true, and condemne their mali­cious surmises.

Concerning your liues,Con. 127 the greate a­doe which yow make for wiues, proueth what gift of continencie is emong yow. [Page 91] And they being in deede no wiues but concubines, either one synne defended and mainteined, draweth not an other with it (which is i [...]possible) either els one maie iustly collecte and gather, that in the other maters besides incontinen­cy, ye be not innocent. I reporte me also to your rayling vpon the Pope, whom ye knowe not: Your belying of honest men which yet liue: Your slaundring of whole orders and companies, either vpō heare­say only, or for the peculiar faults of some fewe persons. &c.

Call ye this innocency? Let the world iudge, where more disordre of life is, emong Catholikes, or heretikes.

We haue ouerthrowē no kingdom,Apolog.we haue decayed no mans power or ryght, we haue disordered no common welth.Confut. 173.

The hundred thousand bandes of Ger­manie, which by tumult and vprore ar­med themselues against the nobility, and died al in it, be witnesse against you.

The Duke of Saxony and Lant graue [Page] of Hesse, he witnesses against you, because they stoode in field against Charles the v. whom ye can not denie to haue bene theyr true Soueraigne and Emperour.

The Sacramentarie Zuitzers of Berna, who robbed the Duke of Sauoie of his townes and Coūtryes from the far­der side of the Lake of Geneua vnto the Alpes, they shal be brought against you.

Geneua it selfe, which is neither in the power of the Duke of Sauoie, nor vnder theyr lawefull Archebishoppe, but hath taken all iurisdictions from them, into her owne handes, maie proue somewhat against you.

The Hugonotes of Fraunce, your brothers, and others in Scotland which haue and doe yet continue in theyr re­bellious stomakes and enterprises, shal testifye, that some mans ryghte is de­cayed by you. But if you thinke all these witnesses to be farre of, and that they can not be well examined, aske (I praie you) and I thinke ye shall finde, [Page 92] that the Brothers of Englande haue fur­thered the cause of the Hugonotes of France and Knokes men in Scotland.

And to be shorte, goe into your owne bosomes, and consider what compassion ye haue ouer the afflicted congregation of the lowe coūtries, where theyr cōspira­cies and enterprises, are so clearlie be­traied and broken. Or consider what ioye ye haue had in it, when not only against lawful Authoritie, but also common ho­nestie, and order, they spoiled Monaste­ries, expelled the Religious, threwe doune Churches, and plaied other suche parts, as sprites of hel doe sometymes in greate tempestes.

The B. of Rome to fede his ambitiō & greedines of rule,Apolog.hath pulled in peeces ye Empire of Rome, and vexed and rente whole Christendome a sunder.

Merciful God,Con. 17 [...] what meane ye? Are ye offēded, that the empire was placed in the Weast, to the defence of Christēdom? And the suppressīg of the Lōbards power which thē was greuoꝰ to Italy, doth that of [Page] fend you? Charles the greate, so blessed and valiant a Prince, shal his actes not onlie be called nowe into question, but vtterly be condemned through you?

If you cal this, a pulling of the state in peeces, that an Emperour was set vp in the Weast, because the Emperour of the East was both vnable and vnready to helpe the Weast church, thē is this present Emperour with al his predec [...]ssours gilty of vniust possessiō ād accessory to the Po­pes ambition, as you terme it. For if at the beginning the title was not good, he can not with safe conscience abide in it. And if that were pulling the Empire in peeces, you perchaunce wil set it together againe, and helpe to put doune the Em­perour now liuing with al that state, that ye maie make al ful and perfite, as it was vnder one Emperour ouer the whole.

Againe he did not feede his ambiti­on, being as great in authoritie before as after. Neither pulled he it in peeces, but where ther was no whole ād good peece [Page 93] left, there he placed a perfite state of go­uernement. And it lacked so much that al Christendome was rent a sondre by it, that except by that meanes prouision had ben made for defence of the Church, the Lombardes euen at those daies and the Turke sense that tyme, had spoiled and rent al Chris̄tendome.

He put Chilpericus the French king being no cuil prince,Apolog.beside his realme, only bycause he fansied him not, & wrōg­fully placed Pipine in his rome.

Chilperike was so good a Prince,Confut. that He was commōly called stupidus, a dolt. He was also wholy geuen to belly chere, ād loue of womē. And therfore the whole realme of Fraunce made ernest sute to the Pope, that they might be loosed from theyr othe made vnto him: wherby it ap­pereth, that the Pope folowed not an only fansy of hys own, but the requeste and aduise of a whole Countrie.

Now as for placing of Pipine wrong­fully, I knowe not how they could make it [Page] probable, except he were made kinge against the good willes of the nobility, ād communaltie of Fraunce. For whereas euery common wealth is greater thā the Prince which gouerneth it, and maie depose the same vppon lawfull cause, and whereas ryot and doltishnes are causes sufficient so to does (as making the prince vnable to gouerne it wel) it foloweth cō ­sequētly, that if the whole state of Fraūce deposed Chilperike and erected Pipine, ther was not fault cōmittedin so doying.

He vtterly destroyed the state of the most florishing Citie and commō wealth of Florence,Apolog.his owne natiue countrie.

How great words, vtterly destroied, and,Confut. florishing Citie? It was neuer more quiet, thā it is now vnder the Duke. For by naturall reason vnder one certaine heade, peace is better maintained, then in nūber of families ād factiōs, be they neuer so smal. And by experiēce they do feele, that they haue lesse stur ād vprising, thā they haue knowen: whereas vnto fourtie [Page 94] [...] which they had before aboute the [...] place, they haue not one as nowe.

All these were Popes,Apolog.all Peters suces­ [...], all most holy fathers: whose seueral [...]oordes we must take to be as good as [...] Ghospels.

Who told ye so?Con. 184 Wher find ye it so? Who [...] taught you to lie so? For not only the [...]opes words, but also his priuat writings [...] taken to be subiect vnto errours and [...]gnorance, as other mens doings are: but [...]ot his definitiue sentence vpon any ma­ [...]er to be generallie beleued.

The selfe same mē which haue led theyr [...] at Rome,Apolog.in y holy city, in ye face of ye most holy father, who also were able to se [...] theyr secrets, & at no time departed frō [...] catholike faith: as for exāple, Laurētius [...]alla, Marcilius Patauinus, Frauncis [...]etrarke, Hierom Sauanorola, Abbote [...] [...]oachim, Baptist of Mantua, & before al [...]hese Bernard ye Abbat, haue many a time & much cōplained of it, geauing y world [...] [...]lso somtime to vnderstand, that the Bi­ [...]hop of Rome him selfe, by your leaue, [...] verie Antichriste.

[Page] Fyue lyes I will note at the leaste [...] this one sentence.Confut. 207.

First, of al these whō ye name, no one [...] did lead his lyfe in Rome, but Laurence Valla.

Secondly, they were not well able to see the Popes secretes whiche lyued [...] in the Citie with him familiarly.

Thirdly, concerning your lye, that [...] no tyme they departed from the Ca­tholike faith: Laurentius Valla was [...] fangled, Marcilius was a plain heretike▪ Abbate Ioachim vttered heresie, which was condemned, but submitting himsel [...] to the Catholike Churche, he escaped fo [...] his owne person.

Fourthely, of the faultes of Rome, [...] Bernard hath complained, but neuer [...] the Popes tyranny, and barbarous pryde [...]

Fifthely, it was the speciall grace [...] Luther, and the blindnes or follie of th [...] foresaid persons, to geue you to vnde [...] ­stand that the Pope should be very An [...] ­tichrist. For the making of which lye, [...] [Page 95] [...] wil neuer so much aske our leaue, we haue no such Authoritie to geue it vnto [...]ou, and therefore I praie you quiet your selues, and neuer trouble vs more here­after with such requestes.

We,Apolog.saieth Hosius, wil bid away with [...] same scriptures, &c. It behoueth not [...] man to be expert in the law & scripture, [...] to be taught of God. It is but lost about yt a man bestoweth vpon the scrip­tures. For the scripture is a creature & [...] bare letter. This is Hosius saieing.

This is not Hosius saying.Conf. 21 [...] Nay, of set purpose he reherseth it for an heresie: to declare how the new Ghospellers of this [...], haue proceeded still from naught to worse, and are now come some of them, to such a diuine spritishnes, that they con­temne the studie of the Scriptures as a carnall thing and vnprofitable, and will not haue anie man vse the testimonie of them.

But God forbid (saieth Hosius) that we should euer so much as think these things, Hosius de expr. ver. Dei. which belong not to a Christiā [Page] man. For we hold with S. Hilarius who iudged heresie to come from the vnderstanding, not from the scripture Seeing therefore that Hosius hath so ex­presselie declared him selfe, to [...] from Zwenkefeldius heresie, which [...] woulde not haue the Scripture to be [...] credite, what impudencie is it, so bold [...] lie to chardge him with it, as thoug [...] it were his opinion, to haue the [...] put away.

Yet this, so greate impudencie, [...] howe it shall be maintained? For all­though it be perceiued, of the Authors [...] the Apologie, that Hosius wil sone [...] against them, and saie, that they doe [...] wronge: yet rather than they will [...] seeme to eate theyr woorde, and to [...] vnable to defende that,Note the stomach. whiche [...] had once sayed in the firste edition [...] the Apologie, they increase theyr [...] and shame in the second edition. [...] whereas in conscience, they should haue cried Hosius mercie, and [...] [Page 96] confessed theyr mistaking of him (which had bene a token of good natures, and such as especially should be in the profes­sours of an holy Ghospel) yet in theyr se­conde Edition and further deliberation vppon the mater, they not only doe not reuoke theyr slaunder, but make Argu­mentes to defende it.

And firste, to that whiche Hosius mighte truelie saie vnto them, that they doe hym wronge, and that the woordes whiche they obiecte aga­inste hym, are not hys owne woor­des, but the woordes of the He­retike Zwenkefeldius: they aun­swere.

But howe then,Apolog. In the second edition.if Zwenkefeldius make Exclamations on the other syde and saye, that the same verie woordes are not hys, but Hosius owne wordes?Confut.

If he will be so shamelesse, as to ob­iecte that vnto Hosius, as Hosius owne, for whiche Hosius expressely reproueth him: Or if he wil be so folish as to professe [Page] that opinion, whiche he wil put await from himself, when he is chalenged of it, he is a meete witnes for the Apologie. But howe is it likely and probable, that Zwēkefeldius might so doe? It foloweth.

For tel me,Apolog.where hath Zwenkfeldius euer writen them.

What if so much be not tolde you,Confut. will it folowe, that because you knowe not, where to finde them in Zwengelfeldius, therefore they are not in him at all? Or because it is not told you wher Zwēkfel­dius hath writē thē, therfore Hosius doth alow them? For herein is the pointe, whether Hosius aloweth them for his owne wordes, or no.

Or if he haue writē thē,Apolog.& Hosius haue iudged the same to be wicked, why hath not Hosius spokē so much as one word to confute them?

By like reason you might make S. Au­gustine a greate heretike, because in [...] booke ad Quoduultdeum, he [...] shortlye the heresies that were in [...] world, and doth not also confute them [...] [Page 97] he telleth them. But the cause of Hosius fact is euident, for that his principal pur­pose in that place, was to shew the here­tikes procedinges, and not to tary about the confuting of theyr sayinges. And whereas he compteth Zwenkfeldius an vptars̄t heretike for those foresayd wor­des, is it not manifest, that he him selfe hath no lyking of those woordes? Verelie although Hosius in noting Zwenkfeldius for those wordes, hath not straitewaies aunswered his argumentes: yet he suffi­ciently proueth himself to be of a contra­rie opinion, and thereby aunswereth your fonde obiection, by whiche your would seeme to make Hosius a Zwenkefeldian, in that he iudged Zwenkfeldius wordes to be wicked, and yet spake not so much as one worde to confute them. As though it were not to speake some word at the least against a position, to saie no more but this of it, that it is an heresie. But see what foloweth in the Apologie.

Howe so euer the matter goeth,Apolog.all­though [Page] Hosius peraduenture wyll not allowe those wordes, yet he doth not dis­alow the meaning of the wordes.

This,Confut. howe so euer the matter go­eth, of which you speake, hath this sense in it, that there is no remedie, but you must, one way or other, make Hosius to be a Zuenckefeldian, least you should seeme to recant and reuoke that, which most vniustly and blindly ye haue layed vnto his charge.

And therefore, whereas it is most manifest, that Hosius aloweth not those heretical wordes, which he attributeth vnto Zuenkefeldius, and whereas ye can neuer purge your selues of the slaun­der made vppon him in that behalfe: ye depart from the matter, neither prouing sufficiently your obiecton, neither con­fessing honestly that you haue mistaken him, but leauing it with a peraduen­ture Hosius wyll not allowe those wordes, ye procede to proue, that how so euer the matter goeth, Hosius dis­aloweth [Page 98] alloweth not the meanynge of those wordes.

In which poynt, ye discharge not you [...] honesties, but shew partly your fond inuention, in burdening your Aduer­uersarie with the sense of those wordes, the speaking or writing of which, ye can not proue against him, his open fact and denial standing to the contrarie: partly your wretched disposition, in maintey­ning a lye by impudencie, as though ne­uer to confesse your fault, were the next way to be deliuered. I adde further, that ye be lesse sure of Hosius meaning, than of his speaking or writing. For wordes and letters are sensible, but the meaning without some externall signe [...]ade, is not intelligible.

If therefore you will leaue to presse Hosius with the foresaied wordes, [...] peraduenture he will disallowe [...] should ye not much more haue [...] your selues, from laying the [...] of them vnto his charge?

[Page] Except you be so folish, as to thinke, that he wil not put awaie from him the sense of those words, the very forme of which ye ghesse he wil disalowe.

But let vs see further how substanti­ally ye wil proue Hosius to be of this mind that the Scriptures are to be reiected. It foloweth.

For wel nere in all controuersies. Apolog.

Your slaunder is to general:Confut. come to some special poynt or other.

And namely touching the vse of the holy communion vnder both kindes:Apolo.al­though the wordes of Christ be playne and euident, yet doth Dosius disdaine­fully reiecte them, as no better thā cold and deade Elements.

What meane ye by, disdainfully reiect them? Confut. Doth he scrape them out of his boke? Doth he cal thē, not worth a straw, as Luther calleth S. Ioannes epistle stra­mineam, a strawen epistle? Doth he say that they are crepte into the text out of the margen,Beza ia Anno. in Luc. 22. as Beza reporteth (like a blindebuzzarde) the wordes of S. Lukes [Page 99] Ghospel, which shal be shed for you, to haue ben infarced? What hath Hosius don to the texte of the Scripture, that ye shoud so lowdly obiecte it, that he doeth disdainefully reiecte them? Bringe in your arguments, that they may be con­sidered: And shew vs some euidence, that ye seeme not to light and slaunderous of your tongue.

There is no doubt, but Hosius and you, will not agree vppon the sense of many textes: but concerning the wordes them selues of the Ghospel, Hosius can not pos­sibly reiecte them, being a Catholike. For in such cases he can doe nothing of him self, but must folow the Catholike church. And the Catholike Churche is so reli­gious towardes Scripture, that as she hath receiued it, so she mainteineth and keepeth it still.

Note therefore this place (gentle Reader) and marke whether the Au­thours of the Apologie, haue either the habilitie to proue that, by which they [Page] haue defamed a right Catholike and Re­uerend Bishoppe: Or the humilitie and honestie, to confesse theyr fault, and to aske forgeauenes for theyr obiecting of that which they are not hable to proue.

The Canonistes of this day,Apolog.for they [...] bellyes sake vse to say of the Pope, that for as much as he is Lord of al benefices, though he sel for mony Bishopriks, Mo­nasteries, Priesthod, Spiritual promoti­ons, and parteth with nothing frely: yet, because he cōpteth al his own, he c [...]n not commit simonie though he would neuer so fame.

How proue ye, that the Canonistes,Confut. 259. of this day, haue such a conclusiō as you speke of? The author of Summa angelica, or Theodoricus, whom ye name in the mar­gen, for the profe of this mater, are dead many daies agoe, and serue not to proue, that the Canonists of this day now liuīg, haue this or that opinion. Therfore I wil be so bolde as to charge you with one lye in accusing the Canonistes of this day.

An other lye shal be, that you slaūder [Page 100] them, to speake (what soeuer they be of whom ye meane) for their belies sake. For (God knoweth) al the lawiers which you euer haue seene or had to do withal, fare litle the better for the Popes table.

The thirde lie, (and that moste no­table) is, that ye make them to conclude it absolutely and generallie of the Popes prerogatiue, which they meane but in a certaine case, and one certaine respecte onlie. For, the distinction and deter­mination of this question, by the verie Summam Angelicam it selfe is, that concerninge suche punishementes and paines, as are sette vppon Symonie by the positiue Law, the Pope is not subiect vnto them. But for the other thinges, which are Symoniacal, and punishable by the Law of God: In ijs quae sunt Symo­niaca de iure diuino, the Pope is not exēpted frō the fault and p [...]ne due to it.

The Greeks haue neither priuate Mas­ses, nor mangled Sacramentes,Apolog.nor pur­gatories, nor pardons.

[Page]An instance in anie one of these, u sufficient to proue you a lyer. And there­fore to let passe Asia, Syria, Assyria, and Armenia, countries too far to goe vnto and see whether we say true or no: In Ve­nis at this day, in the Greeke Church, the priest receiueth alone at the altar, which is (by your interpretion) to saie a priuate Masse: and of this you mai be fully perswa­ded, if (because ye mistrust the Catholiks reporte, which haue seen it) you wil but aske of the Reuerent Father Shire, or some of your owne Merchantes whiche haue trauailed thither, or send some let­ter of yours by theyr frendeship to anie false Christiā, and faithful brother ther, to knowe whether you haue not spoken more, than you are able to proue.

We turne y scriptures into al tōgues:Apolog.they scante suffer them to be had abroad in anie tongue.

Haue ye turned them yet into welsh and Irishe?Confut. but for lieing vpon yourselfe I leaue you to your selfe.

[Page 101]Cōcerning the Catholikes, if your say­ing be true, who then maintaineth the Hebrue Readers of the old testament in Rome, the expounding the same in latin in euerie Catholike Vniuersitie, the open selling of Bibles, Hebrue, Greek and La­tin [...], in al Printers shoppes, the continu­al reading of Scriptures in Monasteryes, not only in opē Church and secrete Celle, but euē in the Refectories, at diner and supper? Who doe al this but Papistes? Your lye therefore is verie notorious.

Peter verely whom the Pope hath of­tence in hys mouth and more reuerently vseth to speake of,Apolog.then he doth of Ihe­su Christe, dyd boldely stand against the holy Councell.

If ye loued,Con. 274 either God or man so tru­lie and iustly as ye would be thought to doe, it were impossible for you, so suspiti­ousely to interprete the honour geauen to the Seruant, to be a diminishing of the honor and reuerence due to his Master. For the charitie of God, the greater as [Page] it is in vs: so it maketh vs to reioyse stil more and more, the more that anie is praysed or remembred, whom he fauou­reth. And to murmur, grudge, cast doune the heade, or make a lippe at it, when S. Peter, or any other of the glorious and blessed in Heauen, is dayly and reuerent­ly spoken of: what is it els, but malitious­ly or blindelie to thinke, that S. Peter hath alreadie honour inough, or rather to much seruice done vnto him, and that God him selfe is like to fare the worse, if his Sainctes be continuallie magnified?

On the other side,1. Cor. [...]. concerning our neighbour, Charitie being patient gen­till, not suspitious &c. howe might a man full of spirite (excepte it be of the hotte sprite of Hel) iudge by a mans reue­rent speaking of S. Peter, that he would not speake, so reuerentelie of Ihesus Christe?

Besides this, ye whiche lyue in En­gland, and make suche reportes of the [Page 102] Pope, whose abode is in Rome, being nei­ther of priuie chamber, nor householde, no [...] of the same Citie or Countrie with him: howe can ye (by anie likelyhode) be other then false lyers in iudging so par­ticularlie of his ma [...]ers, vntill ye bringe the Authonr of this your saying: or light beleuers of tales, when ye haue named the Authours?

Yet truly we do not despise councels,Apolog.assemblies and conferences of Bishops and learned men, neither haue we done that we haue done, altogeather without Bishopes, or without Councel. The ma­ter hath ben treated in open Parleamēt, with long consultation, and before a no­table Synode and Connocation.

Yeas,Con. 275. altogether without Bishops and without a Councel. For in that notable Parleament, the first of our Soueraigne Lady that now is Quene (in which that was don for you that was done) ye could haue no Bishops in the plurall number to stand for you: because ye had not so much as one in the Singular number.

[Page]Albeit afterward in dede one ye had, and he being deceaued or ouercummed did beare with the procedinges more pro­prely, then support them.

This is one. Now, as for the treating of the matter in open Parleament, it was so open, that your voices had no place in it. This is an other.

Thirdly, concerning the long consul­tation that was vsed, the Parleament began after Christmas, and without any greate arguing to or fro, the maydenbill (as it was called) of the Princes Supre­macie was readye to haue passed aboute the beginning of Lent. Then stode one vp that spake against it, with such liber­tie that he was examined vpon it, and lost his owne libertie 30. dayes together, and with such truth and grauitie, that for so many daies after, the matter also of the Supremacie was suppressed. Yet about Easter, for the worde head, came in the word Gouernour. And so was the Supremacye admitted, when the [Page 103] Parleament so little thought of such a fetch, that an earnest fa [...]orer of the Go­spel toke indignation at it, and saied, that if men were ashamed of the word it self head, they should also refuse the Supre­macie it selfe which was imported by it. And cal you this a long consultation? This is a third.

Last of all touching the notable Synod and cōuocation, it put vp to the Parlea­mēt an expresse bil of informatiō against your procedinges. So far of it was from helping you. This is the fourth greate lye, in this one little sentence of yours.

From which fowre, if ye wil defende your selues, by referring your meaning, not to the first Parleament of the first yeare of Quene Elizabeth (in which ye were Sirs out of office) but vnto the o­ther that folowed (the Catholike Bishops now being safely kept in prison) then as ye debate the poyse of your former [...] for al that ye doe augment [...] your foly. For your matt [...] [...] [Page] to passe for you, in the first Parleamēt, in which none of you were p̄sent, though the Parleament folowing, had ben open the cōsultation long, the cōuocation nota­ble (albeit this might be proued to be an open, longe and notable lye) yet note, I praie you, the folie and lie which in this sentence goe togeather. For your maters being don to your hands, in the first Par­leament, where no place was made for you: it is a verie lye to saie: We haue not done, that we haue done, alto­geather without Bishoppes. And the first Parleament seruing your purpose so fullie, that ye needed not an other, what wisedome was it to haue a longe con­sultation and notable Synode vppon that; whiche was before concluded for you, and by you was not to be remoued, for all your notable conuocation?

Continuallie for the space of fyue hun­dred yeares,Apolog.the Emperour alone ap­pointed the Ecclesiastical assemblies.

Where beginne you to recken?Con. 311. Three [Page 104] hundred yeares af [...]tr Christ, there was no Emperour in the world, openlie pro­fessing him selfe a Christian: and yet Ec­clesiasticall assemblies were apointed ād kepte in Hierusalem by the Apostles, In Palestina when Victor was Pope, At Rome by Fabian &c. Then if ye will be­gyn at Constantin the first, and take the fyue hundre yeares folowing, howe make you it true? For the first Councel of Nice it self, was called by Syluester the Pope.

Temporall men subscribe and geaue sentence,Apolog.in generall Councels.

Subscribing we graunt:Con. 318. geauing of sentence we vtterly denie, and you can neuer saue it from a lye. Excepte by such a figure as shal make two diuerse thinges in degree and perfection, to be all one with you, and that it is as lawful to geue sentence in a mater, as to subscribe to it, after it is geauen.

The Popes would nedes make all the realme of Englād tributary to them,Apolo.and tracted thēce yerely most vniust & wrōg­ful [Page] taxtes. So deare cost vs y frindeship of the Citie of Rome.

Was the Realme so vnable to resiste him, that you may truely s [...]ie, the popes would nedes haue it so? Through your ouer much study on the boke of the Lord, ye may be perdoned, for not knowing the historie of our Realme: which if you will take the leasure to consider, will teache you, that the taxes or Peterpence of which you speake (or els ye must perdone me, if I vnderstand you not) were so fre­ly geuen by Kinge Ihon to the Popes for euermore: that excepte his conscience had moued him vnto it, there was no force of armes, nor will in the Pope, to make him of necessitie to doe it.

And because you make it a faulte as it were general of all Popes, that needes they will haue taxes of you: remember Paulus the fourth his dealing with you, at the comming of Quene Marie to her raigne: at which tyme hauing Princes on his side, and by his owne strength [Page 105] some what able to he [...]pe forward, yet he neither required Peterpence (a small matter in respect of our Realme, or his charges vppon Christendome) neither absolute restoring of religious houses to the former and laufull holders of them, a great matter without all controuersie, yet such as he might haue brought to passe if Popes were the men, as you make thē to be. Wherby it appeareth, that although ye might freely make lyes vpon the Am­bition and couetis [...] of Popes in olde time: yet these Popes which of late haue in dede bene so much able, and yet through charitie so litle willing to take of you, do in all mens eyes and iudgments, conuince you of lying and slaunderous tonges.

Men folowing God his bidding,Apolog.of theyr owne free wil resorted vnto y doc­trine of Iesus Christ.

As for example,Con. 345 in our owne coun­trie: In King Harry the viij. dayes, who so would not haue abandoned the Au­thoritie of the Bishop of Rome, should be [Page] hanged, drawen, and quartered. To haue but the name of a Pope in a matins boke was treason, permitting men to praye to S. Gregory which was a moste holy Pope, and punishing thē for hauing that name Pope stāding by him in their kalēder &c.

In king Edwarde his tyme, the proce­dinges increasing, it was punishable to heare Masse, &c. And at this present, it is so odious and dangerous, not to come vn­to your Ghospel, that your selues prouoking the Catholikes to answer you▪ or alowing the bragging manlynes of such a challen­ger: yet now when answers are prouided for you, ye stoppe by all feare that ye can make, first that none be brought in, and afterwards that none be readē, vpō paine of the cōmissioners dispeasure. And, were not the iudgement of our Princesse grea­ter, than to suffer suche an absurditie, as that you shoulde prouoke and crake, when none is willing to fight, and when the enemie is comming forwarde, then call vppon the temporall Arme to driue [Page 106] him backe, that you might triumphe in your maner without the victory, surely had not the goodnes of our Princesse mis­liked this cowardnes, ye had by this tyme made it death, to haue any booke of the Papistes making in Louane. And call you this, Men of theyr owne wil to re­sorte to your doctrine?

And for our parts truly we haue sought hereby neither glory,Apolog.nor wealth, norplea­sure, nor ease: for ther is plentie of al these thinges with our aduersaries.

It is harde to truste you,Con. 34 [...]. especiallie whee as this nedelesse sayīg (that you haue not sought for glory) proueth that you are content to be thought to haue the con­tempte of glorie: which is but a base and sory argument of humilitie. As for your desire of wealth, although Luther, the mā reised of God, had not for couetise prea­ched against pardons, and if Peter Mar­tir (chaynging his opinion with whiche he came to Oxforth, and from his Luthe­ranisme turnīg himself to Zuinglianisme [Page] for loue of so sweete a liuing did not make it probable (as he sayed vnto Iulius his man after a greate feast made to him in Oxford, O Iuli, bonum est nos hîc esse, O Iuly, it is good being here) And al­though your miserable misery and banish­ment in which you were at Geneua, that in condition the popish Religion might be displaced, you woulde be content to conforme your selues to the Princes Re­ligion and orders, which (in the article of supremacie) Caluin your master coulde not abide, And although your selling of stone, lead, slat &c. your woodsales, your bying of Copyholds, your begging of mony and wheat toward household, your bree­ding of swyne with the ouer sight of the Superintendent himself in that kinde of cattell: although (I say) all these matters might make it not vncredible, that you had the desire of wealth in your pouerty, which be so greedie thereof yet dayly stil in your plentie: yet because in these fore­sayd poyntes the fault may be layed not [Page 107] vpon religion, but on the persons profes­sing it, I shall therefore bid you consider one principall end and conclusion of your Gospell, to see thereby whether ye seeke not for ease and pleasure, or (if your selues be better disposed) whether the course of your Religion doth not drawe men to that affection.

For running out of Cloysters, brea­king the vowes of pouertie, of obedience, of chastitie, no rising at midnight, short prayer, contempt of prescribed fastings, yoking of Priestes and their women to­geather &c. and such an Apprehension of Christes merites by Faith, as maketh the handes to let goe all meddling with good workes &c. these being the effects of your religion, and part of the greatest poyntes of your profession: let it now be iudged, whether these men saie true or no, in glorying that they seke not ease and pleasure, except you will say, ye be not inclined after the wayes of your owne religion.

The 8. Chapiter conteining the Rhe­toricall, Slylie, and Frumping lies.

We can not away in our Churches with the shewes,Apolog.and sales, and byeing, and selling of Masses.

AS who shoulde saie,Con. 111. we your Ad­uersaries doe abide it. No ve­relie, we no more alowe the sellinge of Masses, than the Inceste of the renegate Friers and Sisters: And yet there haue ben in the Catholike Church Religiouse personnes so fowlie disposed. As doeth appeare by the chiefe Apo­stles of the new Ghospell, Luther, Oeco­lampadius, Peter Martir, Bale, Barc­ [...]let, Barlowe, Scorie &c. Which depar­ted out of the Churche on theyr owne heade and perill, and liued not well in the Churche whyles they were inter­teined in it. And so, although some faith­lesse and wretched fellowes, might be proued to haue sold theyr Masses in the [Page 108] Churche: that conuinceth them to be naught, and not that the Churche con­senteth vnto it.

We verelye,Apolog.because we knowe the shedding of Christe hys Bloud vppon the Crosse to be the onelie Sacrifice, are well content with it alone, and looke for none other. And forasmuche as yt was to be offered but once, we commaūd it not to be renewed againe.

You woulde (I perceaue) haue the Catholikes compted exceading couetous and insatiable,Conf. 123. as thoughe they shoulde thinke the shedding of Christe his Bloud vppon the Crosse to be vnsufficiente to saluation.

But yet howe thinke you? Not­withstanding ye are so well content, (as ye saye) with Christe his Passion alone: doe ye not thinke it necessarie for you, to obey the Churche, to obey your Prince, to absteine from lying, from adul­tery, from Simonie &c? If besides the passion of Christ, you must also keepe the [Page] Commaundementes, and doe as manie good workes as ye may, then as you are content, so are we: And you are no wi­ser (by this rekening) than other poore folkes are.

But, if Christ his Passion doth so content you, that ye seeke not to suf­fer also with him, after your degree, in a certaine proportion: then doth it plain­lie appeare, that you are quickly satisfi­ed. And in such sorte to be well con­tent, is for suche as neuer thincke to ascend after Christ, and are verie vn­like vnto him.

Why hath he hys Legates (as much to saie as moste suttle spyes) lying in wayte in all Kinges Courtes,Apolog.Coun­celles and priuie chambres? Why doth he, when he lyst, sette Christian Princes one against an other, And, at his owne pleasure, trouble the whole world with debate and discord?

First,Con. 178 let it be proued, that the Pope doth it, and then afterwardes aske the cause why? And cōsider also, whether it [Page 109] becommeth the Church of England, that such an Apologie should goe furth in the name of it, as meddleth with the legats, whom other Princes of Christendome doe interteyne? And which obiecteth to a person of much Authoritie, at the least, such an heyg [...]nous and shamefull crime, as, that at his plesure he should trouble the whole world. If the Pope were no more quiet and peaceable, than ye make him: had England all this while conti­nued in schisme and heresie, and not ben made a praye to some that would haue taken it?

What is he that cōmaundeth the Em­perour to goe by him at his horse bridle,Apolog.& the Frenche King to hold his stirope?

Some Pope by lykelihode of your owne making.Con. 185. For the Catholiks know of none such at al. Yea,Paulu [...] Iouius. when Charles the fifthe, of worthie memorie, would haue helde Pope Clements stirope, he was not suffe­red so to doe, the Popes modestie ouer cō ­ming the Emperours deuotion.

[Page] Why doe they hyde,Apolog.why doe they keepe vnder, the Ghospell, which Christ woulde haue preached alowde from the house toppe?

We beleue,Con. 222. it is not hyddē, that which is openlie readen in the Churche, Ca­tholikelie expounded in Vniuersities, Ordinarelie readen in Religiouse houses, And commonlie solde in Hebrue, Greeke, and Latine, to all that will studie it. This lye is dilated by the Authours of the Apologie. Fo. 264. this also is e­mong the flatte lyes.

Why doe they not proue theyr Reli­gion,Apolog.by the examples of the Primitiue Churche, and by the Fathers, and Coun­cels of old tymes?

Our bookes doe aunswer for vs,Conf. 231. that this is a lye.

Why be they afrayd to take a paterne,Apolog.of the Apostles and old Fathers?

We be neuer afraied,Con. 20 [...] but when we come to such heretikes, as wil not admit [Page 110] the old Fathers, nor theyr interpretatiōs vppon the Apostles: then in deede we alleage not so thicke theyr Testimonies, whose Authorities the loftie and prowde mindes, doe easelie contemne.

Why dyd Iohn,Apolog.1. Clement, a Coun­trie man of ours, 2. but fewe yeares paste, 3. in the presens of certaine honest men and of good credite, 4. teare and 5. caste into the fyere, certaine leaues of Theodorete the moste, 6. Auncient Father and a, 7. Greeke Bishoppe, wherein, he playnlie, 8. and euident­lie taughte, that the nature of Bread in the Communion was not chaynged, abolyshed, or brought to nothinge. And thys dyd he of, 9. purpose, bycause he thought, 10. there was no other copy thereof to be found.

Ye haue done well so particularlie to set furth this mater,Con. 231. declaring by ma­nie circumstances, that Doctour Cle­ment shoulde Teare, and Caste into the fier, certaine leaues, of such an Author, [Page] of such a mater, before men of good cre­dite, and for suche a purpose and [...] ▪ as you specifie. And nowe, as though the mater needed no further [...] aske, why Iohn Clement a Coun [...]rie­man of yours dyd so?

But I will tel you firste, [...] he dyd not so. For, as him selfe hath [...] me and other asking this verie qu [...]stion of him, that you appose vs withall, he neuer had anie parte of that booke in Greeke or in Latine in written hande: And therefore could not wel burne that which he neuer had. Nowe, if the honest men that you speke of, did not only se him cast certeine leaues into the fier, but did reade also, the contentes of those leaues before they were cast into the fier, and vnderstoode vpon what intent D. Cle­ment dyd it &c. name them that they maie be knowen for theyr honestie.

When they did of late put in print,Apolog.the auncient Father Origenes worke vp on the Ghospel of Iohn, why left they quite [Page 111] out, the who [...]e sixte chapiter, wherein it is lykely, yea rather of verie suerty, that the [...], had writen many thin­ges con [...]rning the Sacrament of the ho­ly Communion contrarie to these mens myndes?

We could not leaue that Chapiter out,Con. 233. which was not founde in anie Copy. But if you can bring anie such chapiter furth, ye shal make it lykely ād ꝓbable, that we are to blame for not putting it in. And, if you can not, you proue your selfe to be verie suspitiouse and slaunderouse, which reproue the Catholikes, for not putting that in, which is not, as farre as we or you doe hitherto know, to be found in any place extant. Yet you haue suche a grace, as in speaking, so also in reading with­out booke, that you further saie it to be, not onlie lykelie, but rather of verie suertie, that such and such things should be in that place of Origen, which yet you neuer sawe in al your lyfe, that you might be able to reporte anie thing of it.

Which of al the Fathers haue at an [...]e [Page] time called you by the name,Apolog.of the high­est Prelate, the vniuersall Bishoppe, or the head of the Churche?

S. Hierome ad Damasum:Con. 247 The Coun­cel of Chalcedō ▪ and Victor de persequu­tione Vandalica these haue geauen the for sayd titles vnto the Bishoop of Rome.

Which of them euer sayd, that both the swordes were committed to you?Apolog.

S. Bernard saiteth it, lib. 4. de con­sideratione ad Eugenium.Con. 247

Whiche of them euer sayed, that you haue an Authority to cal Councels?Apolog.

There folowe a broune dosen moe of such which of them? Con. 248 Which either nede no aunswer, because the Catholik Church hath no suche Articles, as you aske que­stion of, Or because it is not bound to an­swer euerie gentleman controllers busie questions, although it be able, either by expresse Authoritie, or els by necessarie consequence to declare good and suffi­ciēt cause and reason for euery thing that it aloweth. But touching this present que­stion, Socrates Hist. Tripart. lib. 4. ca. 9. [Page 112] doth plainely testifie against you.

What one error haue they amended? From what kind of Idolatry haue they reclaimed the people?Apolog.

Here is a suspiciō reised of more thā one error,Con. 291. ād of more thā one kind of Idolatry to be in the church, and ther is no ꝓbatiō annexed to ꝓue that which is sayd. But herein your blīdnes ād ignorāce, doth vtter it self, that ye know not what is truth, ād right worshippīg of God, which obiect errors ād Idolatry to th'church of God, in which church the techer of truth th'holy Ghost,Ioan. 14 [...] is alwaies presidēt, and shal be vn­to the worlds end.

Again, if you cōsider, what hath ben don of late in general coūcels, ād what is don daily both by p̄ching, ād writing against euil life and heresy, you can not iustly find fault with the heades of the Churche, as though they had no regard what the people did beleue and folowe.

Then further I say, if you willo biect ignorance vnto the Catholykes that, [Page] they knowe not what is true Religion: then doth it remaine, that you tel your owne mindes, and answer theyr Confu­tations and Replies. Before which tyme to insulte vpon them and to crowe out a lowde, from what kinde of Idolatrie haue they reclaimed the people? is, to triumphe before the victorie, and to goe merelie awaie with the sentence, whiles the mater is a hearing yet in the consi­storie.

But if you obiecte this crime to the Catholikes, that they knowe wel inough what Idolatrie is, and see the kindes of it, and yet reclaime the people from no kind thereof: this trulie is so heigh­nous and so vile a fault, that ye shoulde haue euidentlie proued it, before ye had so artificiallie concluded it.

For a plaine answere to whiche fowle suspition, let any reasonable mā be iudge, whether it be lykelie and possible, that they which with great paines and daun­ger of bodie, haue prouided, verie Idola­tours [Page 113] in deede, to be conuerted vnto our faith, would wittingly suffer an Idolatry to be at home before theyr eies, ād yet not take a litle paine to opē theyr mouth but once against it. The Frāciscans, and they of the societie of Ihesu, haue and d [...]e take exceding greate paines about the barba­rous people in the East and Weast India, and with hazard of theyr temporal lyfe, they venter to bring the Infidels, to the knowledge of the life euerlasting. There­fore surely it is bysides al reason and like­lyhod, that of so manie of the same order and profession, as liue here in Europe e­mong vs, no one should be foūd so honest, so hardy, or so faithful, as to reclaime the people from theyr Idolatrie, if anie were in them at all.

Why doe they so vncourteously or with such spite,Apolog.leaue Princes out, & as though they were not either Christen mē, or els could not iudge, will not haue thē made acquainted with the cause of Christian Religion, nor vnderstand the State of theyr owne Churches?

[Page]And why doe you so openly and so li­centiously r [...]yse a fowle suspition,Con. 297 against the Cleargie, where no cause is? The tēporal princes, are solemly warned be­fore, of the general councel, when so [...]uer it is to be kept. Theyr Legats haue hono­rable and meete places for them, in the Cou [...]cel house, that they may not be igno­rant of that which is done, in debating and examining the cause of religiō: They be humbly and hartly thanked, for theyr helpes and assistance and presence, made in the cause of the Churche: They be sent home with peace: And say you, that prin­ces are so lefte out, as though they were no Christen men, whose Embas­sadours you maie vnderstand to be inter­teyned and vsed so honourably?

What ys the Pope,Apolog.I praie you, at this daye, other than A Monarche, Or A Prince? Or what be the Cardinals, who must be none other nowe, but prin­ces and Kinges Sonnes?

We neuer hearde anie wyse man callCon. 299 [Page 114] the Pope A Monarche. But a Prince he is in deede, either as the worde Prince maie signifie the Chiefe in all Priestelie function, either as it signifieth a man so indued with Temporalties, that he maie worthely be a Kinges felow.

But saie you, what other is he than a Monarche, or a Prince? As who shoulde thinke, that he sate imperiallie vnder his clothe of Estate, and hearde Embassadours out of all quarters of the world, and gaue kingdomes or toke them awaie at his pleasure, and after such ma­ters of weight dispatched, then that he went to hunting, hauking, plaieing, daū ­sing, feasting, &c. as worldely Princes doe. For such a thing do the cōmō people imagine a Monarche or prince to be, one that ruleth al, and liueth in al pleasure.

That you therfore may be corrected of your lie, ād the simple Reader of his error, I say that the Pope is no Monarche at al. And I confesse boldly, that he is a Prince, by reason of the Temporall, and greate [Page] Iurisdictiō which he hath ouer S. Peters patrimonies, but as Pius the fifthe that now liueth, did answer agreably to his ho­lines, and wisdom, Licet Princeps sum, antiquius tamen Pastoris quàm princi­pis nomen agnosco: so (to say the like in English) I geue you to vnderstand, that although the Pope be a prince, yet he acknowledgeth and taketh, the office of a Pastor to be the more former and principal with him, than the Office of a Prince.

By this office then of a pastour, he go­uerneth, and f [...]deth his flocke: he sendeth non residents, home to theyr cure: he a­pointeth out Preachers and Bishopes for the new found lands: he calleth Coūcels, endeth Coūcels whē it shal please him he goeth in visitatiō (as this last yere he did through althe parish churches of Rome) he excommunicateth such as wil not re­pent (as he doth Courtesanes, expelling them bodyly also out of the Citie) he suc­coureth such as wil conuerte (for which [Page 115] purpose, his predecessor Pius the fourth of blessed memorie, built a peculiar Cloister or house) he preacheth vnto his flocke, (as he did thrise the last yere, first in S. Peters Churche, after that in our Ladie Churche, which is called Maria Maior, thyrdly in S. Iohn Laterane) he mini­streth the Sacramentes, he confirmeth Bishopes, he bindeth, he looseth, he char­geth, he dispenseth, and by vertue of his Authoritie and Priestehoode, he expel­leth the dyuels themselues out of the pos­sessed bodies.

Nowe if Princes and Monarches haue the Office and power to doe these spiri­tuall functions, whiche I haue short [...]lie and in parte noted: then shall they also be holie Fathers, and take vnto them the title of Supreamehead vnder God in earth. But if no man be so foolishe as to holde it, that a Prince is a Priest: then are you answered, that the Pope at this daie is some other thinge than a Mo­narche or a prince. And so we praie [Page] you to be content, and not to sue vnto vs for aunswer of that, whiche is in plaine sight, so euident against al truthe.

As for Cardinalles, who (you say) must be none other now but Princes and kinges sonnes doe ye thinke, that of Princes and Kinges Sonnes, one maie loke for no other thīg, but wildnes youth­fulnes and ignorance? Cardinal Pole, the Cardinall of Loreine, Hercules Gonzaga, Gaspar Contarenus, Frego­sius: Nauagerus These I trow (if any be) are the [...]ardinalls whom you wil nūber emong the Sonnes of kinges and princes. And what thinke you of them, or what shal ye find in them? Shal ye not find eue­rie one of them more notable and fa­mous for theyr learning and vertue, thā for theyr familie and Parentage?

If ye thinke then, that the Princes Sonnes that are made Cardinalles, are nothing els but vnlerned Courteours, you shall shewe your selues to be verie simple Scholars, whiche canne iudge [Page 116] no better of the foresaied Cardinalles. On the other side, if ye confesse them to haue bene, and yet to be men verie wyse and learned: then maie ye mi­struste your wittes and iudgement, in obiectinge that, as an Infamie to the See of Rome, that the Noble men whiche th [...]re are Cardinalles, are Prin­ces Sonnes. Whereas the same be greate Diuines also and Doctours.

But it greiueth you, that Cardi­nalles muste be none other now, but Princes and Kinges Sonnes. There is no muste in the mater: For the poo­reste of you all, if his pouertie consisted in byrthe onelie, and not in witte and honestie, he might be not onlie a Cardi­dinall, but also A Pope. Lyke as of Adrianus the sixthe, we not onelie reade, that he was borne at [...]ltreicht [...], of verie poore Father and Mother: but also we heare of the Auncient in Lo­uane, that he liued here by begging very much at the beginning.

[Page]But ye affecte not to be Popes: Cardi­nals perchaunce ye could lyke to be, if that letted it not, that Cardinals must be none other now, but princes and kings Sōnes. As who should say, that no man knoweth, that Hosius, Seripando, Amulio, Sirlettus, and he de ara Coeli in Rome, are Cardinals by authority, and meane mens Sonnes by natiuitie.

But to conclude, it appeareth that you are very base borne childerne, whiche so beggarlie and ignorantly talke of ma­ters out of your knowledge, and woulde seeme to haue no litle intelligence of the state of the court of Rome, of which ye so speke as pedlars, that make discourses in Alehouses of Reformation in Religion, and war or peace betwen Princes, ād not as graue men, whiche shoulde be sure firste of that whiche they saie, especial­lie when they speake in the name (as it were) of A whole Realme or Countrie.

The 9. Chapiter, Of an impudent and desperate maner of lying, which may well be called, facing of a Lye.

As for those thinges which by them haue bene layed against vs,Apolog.in parte they be manifestly false and condemned so by theyr owne iudgementes whych spake them.

SHewe,Con. 10. where, when, and by whom.

If they perchaunce will not see that,Apolog.which they see in deede, but rather will withstand the knowen truth.

You doe well to adde (perchaunce) and yet you be to suspicious without ve­ry good argument,Conf. 19. to thinke that anie Catholike will withstand the knowen truth.

Lorde God thou knowest,Apolo.that our Aduersaries were the verie foes to the Gospel, and enemies to Christes crosse: who so wittingly & willingly did obsti­uately despise Gods commaundements.

[Page]In this you haue done politikely,Con. 151. to appeale to the knowledge of God, with Lord God thou knowest. For in the iudgement of men, which knowe not what is within an others breast, except it be vttered by some external signe, it is impossible, that you should with any reason obiect it vnto vs: that wittingly and willingly and obstinately we des­pise Gods commaundements, hauing no word or writing of ours, by which ye are hable to shew it. And if you haue any, let that rather be brought foorth, than a naked slaunder onely exhibited, without any confirmation or likelyhode.

Our enemies doe see,Apolog.and can not de­nie, but we euer in all our wordes and writings haue diligently put the people in mynde of their duetie, to obeie their Princes and Magistrates, yea though they be wicked.

If we can not denie it, Conf. 175. howe is it, that we doe denie it? Yea rather howe could we denie that, which is to be sene [Page 119] so openly? Are you only straungers in the affaires of the newe Ghospel, and doe ye not knowe, howe it hath proceded hy­therto?

Tel me, I pray you, whose counsell the Duke of Saxonie and the Lantgraue of Hesse did followe, when they stoode in Armes against theyr laufull Emperour Charles the fifth?

Of what Ghospell was Luther, when he wrote, that the Emperour and Catho­like Princes were proditores scelesti, vanique nebulones, traitours, wicked men and vaine knaues?

How came the Caluinists by Geneua, a denne nowe of the Gospellers, and vnto what Prince should it be subiect, if right and consciēce could preuaile emōg them?

By whom was Pultrone chosen vnto that ministery, to kyl the Duke of Guise, the chief Captaine of the French King? Was not Beza the preacher, one of them that promoted him to that office?

And to be short, were your eares only [...] [...] [Page] not, those thinges which they bost they haue &c. and though they haue a desire rather to dissemble: yet they them sel­ues are not ignorant thereof, yea & som­time also they let not to confesse it opēly.

See,Con. 252. how deuoutly these felowes can make lies. They talke with God about the matter, and they comfort themselues with this (I trow) that he yet is their witnes, that we haue not Antiquitie, Vniuersalitie and Consent, which we say we haue. And it foloweth, that we our selues are not ignorant hereof, but the proof hereof (as I suppose) is to be re­ferred to the knouledge of the good Lord only. For cōcerning the knowledge of mē, wheras it is manifest by al our doings and writings, that we haue those three thīgs for vs, Antiquitie, Vniuersalitie, Con­sent, and that against al our aduersaries we proue, that these three be so with vs that they are not with them: it is vn­reasonably and impudently set furth in print, where he that will may iudge of [Page 121] it, that we should be of any other minde, than can be proued by euidence of some externall signes.

We are come to that Church,Apolog.wherin they themselues can not denie (if they will say truely, and as thei think in their owne conscience) but all thinges be gouerned purely and reuerently, and as much as we possibly could, very nere to the order vsed in the olde tyme.

Here againe our owne conscience is brought furth against vs,Conf. 269 as though thei did see by their sprite, what we thinke in wardly: though we outwardly shew all signes to the contrary. Many Catho­likes liue out of their Countrie, other many lye in prison within their Country, some write whole bookes against the pro­cedings, And al (I thinke) doe speake against them, when they may do it with­out daunger of displeasure. What should we doe more, to declare that the newe Gospel is damnable? Yet al this notwith­standing we thinke in our conscience (say the Authors of the Apology) that al [Page] thinges be gouerned purely and reue­rently emong them &c. Haue they any honesty, which set such faces vpō maters?

Let vs see in al that while (of the first syxe moneths in which the Councel sate at Trente) of so many,Apolog.so manifest, so of­ten confessed of them, and so euident er­rors, what one errorhaue they amended?

But what are they first,Con. 291. that we may knowe them?

These men vse of course,Apolog.to denie all thinges, be they neuer so cleere: yea, the very same, which they presently see and beholde with theyr owne eyes.

This lye is of the same sute with his foresaied felowes,Conf. 317. because it layeth such thinges to our charge, as our doeinges proue to be most false and incredible. For, al the Scriptures we haue receiued, and excepte we had commended them, no protestant could euer haue trusted them. The old Councels and Fathers we more esteme than Protestantes doe, we refuse no laufull testimonie of any age. That which we see with our eyes we do neuer [Page 122] deny, though we vnderstand such thin­ges as come vnder our senses, otherwise than the heretikes doe.

To whom therefore may I compare these Aduersaries, which wil make vs beleue, that we see well inough that, which we do deny, and sometimes denie that, which we do see. I thinke they are disposed only to make sporte, ād so to plaie in maters of religion, like as idel spēders of theyr wit and time doe, in the deui­sing of mad mery games. For when halfe a dosen such are agreed togeather, one of them (for example) laieth handes vpon a quiet man that passeth by: And whyle the innocent looketh backe vpon him, in commeth an other that helpeth to holde him, so fast, as though it should be for the kings auantage, to haue such a one made sure. With that, he that without cause is so apprehended, wondreth at the matter ād asketh what they meane ād stretcheth his power to break away frō them. But he begīneth no soner to resist, but straitwaies [Page] they cry, helpe Sirs, helpe for the Lordes sake, this felow is mad: see how his colour chaungeth, see how he panteth &c. And with that, the rest of the brotherhoode sore moued with bitter compassion, make in to him, and for lacke of other sprites, there they possesse him, and holde him, and crie vnto him, and kepe such a sturre about him, as is able to bring many a man halfe out of his wittes, and to perswade with other that stande by and consider the thing, that vndoutedly the felow that suffreth the violence is mad, and not that they, which goe so sadly and constantly to the holding of him, should be any thing madde.

After which sorte if the Authors of the Apologie haue concluded to cry out vpon vs, that we can not denie, that, we knowe in our owne conscience, that, we knowe for a truth, such and such thinges as we lay against them, to be false, and if they will needes enforce it vpon vs, that we can not deny, but [Page 123] all thinges are gouerned purely and reuerently amonge them, what reme­dy but patiēce, and to suffer them to cary vs into Bedlem with so many holy and learned men our forefathers, as already they haue condemned, if they will not be answered with our open confession in worde and deede? But if this be vnrea­sonably done of them, to burden vs with such a Conscience as can not be gathered of any our external acte: Iudge thou In­different Reader, whether this be not properly facing of a lye.

The 10. Chapiter, conteining the Pro­blematicall or Hypotheticall lyes, with, how then, what ifs, and put case. Not so impudent and open fa­ced as other, but not vnworthy to be noted, and no lesse shameful than the worst of all.

But, I put case,Apolog.an Idoll be set vp in the Church of God. And the same deso­lation, which Christ prophesied to come, [Page] stand openly in the holy place.

It should not long continue,Con. 192. I beleue, to graunt your case. For whē Antichrist him selfe shal come, he shal be quickelie destroied, and neuer haue any successour openlie to syt in his Chaire after him.

What if some theefe or Pirate inuade and possesse Noes Arke?Apolog.

I thinke the Arke woulde sinke.Conf. 192 And whereas God him self keepeth the Arke his Church, and prouideth it to be a place of safety in which the iuste seed shall be preserued: to let a Pirate and Theefe to possesse the Arke, were as muche to graunt, as to lette there be no honestie, no Faith, no laufull Authoritie in the Church: Yea it is as much to saie, as, I put the case there were no God.

Howe then if I call furthe those for witnesses,Apolo.whom them selues haue vsed to honour? What if I saie, that Adriane the Bishop of Rome did frākly confesse, that all those myscheefes braste out first fr [...] the hygh throne of the Pope?

Mary ye lie,Con. [...]06 if ye saie so.

[Page 124]But howe then yf Zwenkeseldius make exclamation on the other syde,Apolog.and [...], that the same verie wordes be not [...], but Hosius owne wordes.

If he will be so wise as to recall his owne woordes,Con. 217 the Churche is mercifull to al that repent. If he wil be so desperat, as to denie that which is in sighte: that shal helpe him nothing in theyr iudgmēt, which knowe Hosius to be a Catholike.

But howe if the thinges which these men are so desyrous to haue seeme new,Apolog.be founde of greateste Antiquitie? Con­trariwyse, howe if all thinges well nie, whiche they so greately sette out with the name of Antiquitie, hauing bene well & throughly examined, be at length founde to be but newe and deuised of verie late?

Verely they wil be strange cases,Con. 230. when any suche fall.

But I put case these Abbates and Bi­shops haue no knowledge?Apolog.What if they vnderstād nothing what religion is, nor howe we ought to thinke of God? I put case the pronouncing and ministring [Page] of the lawe be decayed in Priestes, and good counsell faile in the Elders, as the Prophete Micheas saieth, the nyght to be vnto them in stede of a vision, and the darkenesse in stede of prophēsiyng? Or, as Esaias saieth, what if all the watch­men of the Citie are become blinde?

What if y salt haue lost his propre strēgth and sauerines? And, as Christ sayeth, be good for no vse, scant worth the casting on the dunghill?

The lesse knowledge you would make the bishops and Abbats to haue,Con. 280. the more miracle it wil be, that without know­ledge they haue such learning, as their bookes, and preachings, and doinges doe testifie. Take for an example the Catho­like Bishops of England. Is there among them all any one against whom you may come with your textes of Micheas, Esai­as, or Christ our Sauiour? Yet, you put the case they haue no knowledge: I aun­swere, that your case is a verie hard one. But yet to remedie somewhat this mat­ter, if our Bisshops should be so vnlearned [Page 125] and ignorant, I thinke it were bet­ter for the common wealth to set them to Schole, than to put them in prison. Or if they be nothing mete for lernīg, to set them rather at libertie, being suche as can hurte the procedinges nothing for lacke of good life and knowledge, than to kepe them in, so preciselie and politikely, as though euerie worde that they should speake, were able to cōfound an heretik.

Howe then if the Pope haue seene none of these thinges,Apolog.and haue neuer reade either the Scriptures, or the old Fathers, or yet his owne Councels?

I aunswer▪ but first,Con. 284 I will also put a case. What if there were no shame in a man? What if there were no regarde of the sight of God? What if in all thinges he should seeke for this onlie, howe to fill the peoples eares, and to make them ga­ther of an exceading greate word some­what at the least? W [...]ld there be anie discretion or staie in suche a one of put­ting cases, of deniyng moste manifeste [Page] truthes, of slaundering worthie persons, and goeyng against sense and reason? So is it with the Authours of the Apologie. For, how thē (say they) if the Pope haue neuer readen, either the scriptures, or the old fathers, or yet his owne Coū ­cels? How then? Are ye not ashamed to put such a case, as neither euer yet hap­pened, nor euer is like to come to passe by any reason? Shew the occasion of this your suspition and feare? Declare your selfe to be of greater experience and considera­tion than those are, which quake for feare where no cause is? Name anie one Pope that hath not bene so learned, that you might welthink him to haue readen the Scriptures? Ye can name none at al. You put only a case with, how then if he hath neuer readen the Scriptures? And I aunswer, that if it be so, it is a great mi­racle. And that except you bring furth some certificate of it, it is not to be bele­ued. But neither you meant it (I sup­pose) to affirme it: only ye thought it e­noughe, [Page 126] to speake much, as thoughe you could bring furth somwhat, And to leaue it to your Reader to suspect somwhat, al­though you proued nothing.

I confesse vnto you: I can not tel what to saye to such What thens? and What yfs? But if you haue any arte in iudging of them: I pray you, if the skye should fal, were not many larkes like to be ta­ken? And if such kindes of What yfs? as you haue put, might be folowed in o­ther examples: were not manie fooles like to be made and preferred by it, and many Wyll Sommers would they not be found in England, which would quick­ly saie: what if all the Councell be vnlearned? And what if poore knaues haue as great a gift of wisedome, and knowledge, as the Noble and Learned of the world? Thus far concerning this matter.

The 11. Chapiter, confuting a blasphe­mous Lye.

BY manie smal practises, at length an habite is goten, and he that refray­neth not his tongue, and thought in the lesse, shal make it so fond and slippe­rie, that it will offende in the greater: And the Apologie of England whyles it toke not good heede inough, to speake trulie of men, it is come to that blind au­dacitie, that it belieth God him selfe. For this cause therefore, that the Authours thereof maie the better consider of theyr rashnes, and the Indifferent Reader may the more plainelie see, that he muste not truste euerie Sprite: I place this lie by it selfe as a singular one, without felowes and without cōparison, and I call it as it deserueth, a Blasphemous lye For thus they saie in defence of theyr discession from the Catholike Church.

Though we haue departed from that Church whiche these men cal Catholike,Apolog.[Page 127] & by that meanes get vs enuy amongst them, that want skyl to iudge: yet thys is inough for vs, & it ought to be inough for euerie wyse and good man, and one that maketh accompt of euerlasting life, that we haue gone from that Churche, which had power to erre, which Christ, who can not erre, told so long before, it should erre.

Where find ye this in anie Ghospel?Con. 322 Or why tel ye not your Reader of it, that he also might perceaue it? Or why directe ye him not to the place, at the leaste, where he might seeke it? Can it be any other than wicked impudencie, to make Christ saie that which he neuer saied? If Christ hath fore [...]old it in deede, that our Churche shoulde erre, shewe vs that, and there is nothing to be replied. Fa­thers, Councels, Stories, Apologies, Re­plies, Reioynders, al other labours maie be spared: onelie that place were to be shewed, where Christ hath so plainly cō ­founded vs. For this you maie be sure, if ye can proue that our Church maie erre, [Page] you shal perswade al the sort of vs, to for­sake it, and get vs to an other of whiche we maie be sure it can not erre.

But forasmuch as ye can bring furthe no such word of Christ: why make ye such a wretched crake, as though ye were de­parted from a church that may erre to a better congregation, or as though Christ should beare witnes vnto the goodnes of your doeynges by his foretelling, that our Churche should erre?

Here ye are to be pressed, ād here should ye be enforced to aunswer. For by this place it will quickely be seen, who hath wōne, or who hath lost. For if it were S. Ambrose, or S. Augustin that did affirme anie thing, the Catholike would so farre accepte it, as he should see other Fathers to agree to it: and the heretike woulde so litle make of it, that if all the fathers bysides did saie with them, he woulde not be bound to folow theyr authority, be­cause they al were mē. But if Christ once saie the word, both partes wil submitte [Page 128] thēselues vnto it, because it is impossible that he should speake anie vntrueth.

His authoritie therefore being, for so good cause, so great with vs: either ye can ꝓue that Christ hath fortold as ye report of him, or ye can not proue it. If ye can not, what an impudencie is it againste Christ himself, so to belie him, and what an iniurie [...]s it to the Reader, so to abuse him by the name of Christe? But if ye can shewe it, where Christ hath foretold, that our Churche shoulde erre: doe so then, and speake not so mightie woor­des againste vs, without anie prouing of them at all.

But, howe is it possible, that ye should proue them.Christ hath a Church. For this first ye will not denie, that Christ hath a Church: other­wise his Incarnation and Passion hath bene in vaine, if he haue not her, for whō he toke flesh,The Churc [...] [...] visible. ād shed his blud. This church thē of Christ, is it visible, or no? Visible it must nedes be, because it cōsisteth of mē, [...]nd mē are creatures cōsisting not of pure [Page] and simple soules, but of soules and bodies togeather. And Christ saieth of it,Math 5. The Citie can not be hid that is set vpon an hyl.

Being then visible,The Churche hath or­der in it Sap. 11. shal ye see good or­der in it, or no? Vndoubtedlie he that hath made al things by nūber, weight, and measure, muste not let that to be without order, which he estemeth most of al other thinges. For [...] is the bodie of Christe,Eph. 4. compacted and knit togeather through euerie ioynt, wherewith one ministreth to an other, hauīg in it distin­ction of offices, and duties, to rule, to obey, to preache, to heare, to minister, to receaue.

This Order then,The or­der in the Church must con­tinue. Dan. 7. shal it for anie tyme be lacking in Christes Church, or shal it continue to the worldes end? It muste needes continue, because the kingdome of Christ is euerlasting, and no power is hable to destroie the order which he ta­keth. The Apostle also most expresly tel­ling vs, that Christ hath geuen Apostles, [Page 129] Prophetes, Euangelistes, Pastoures and Teachers, [...]ph. 4. to finish and perfite the holy, to worke in the ministery, to build vp the bodie of Christ. Which bodie whereas it cā not be perfited, vntill al they be borne that shalbe saued soules: it foloweth, that this Order which I speake of, must con­tinue so long vntil all meete togeather in vnity of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God, which wil not be, til al be borne that shall so meete togeather, and that is at domes day, and not before.

These grounds then so standing, I say vnto you: for as much as the Church of Christ consisteth of a visible cumpanie of men, which is kept in order and vni­tie, by reason that euery one knoweth his place and keepeth himselfe within his boundes least he loose his place: and for as much as this cumpanie and order must continue to the worldes end with­out dissolution or distruction: I say ther­fore vnto you, that either our Catholike Church is the true Church of Christ, or [Page] els that Christ hath no Church at al. For besides our Church ther is none that hath bensene to cōtinue in any form of religiō euer sensth' Apostles time hitherto. As in exāple, before Luther brake out frō his cloister and Rule, ther was not in al the world anyone cūpany, of Luther ās, Zuīgli ās Caluinists, or any other sect, that brag­geth at this day of the light ād knouledge of the gospel. Wel ther might be in corners some faithles mē and womē, that in hart were heretical (like as at this present if harts were sene, many shuld be foūd euē in Englād it self, to dout of th'īmortality of the soule, ād th' Incarnatiō of Christ, &c) but ther was no opē cōgregatiō of thē, nor apꝓued form of ministratiō emōg thē, nor any face or shew of a Church. For yoursel­ues do say, that Martin Luther, ād Hul­derik Zuīglius wer the first that came to the knowledge ād preaching of the Gospel, so that if they were first. it folo­weth that before they came, ther was no congregatiō of ꝓtestāts in al the world, or [Page 130] if it were, it was not visible, or if it were visible, it had no true preachers, or if it had true preachers, Luther, ād Zuinglꝰ need not to be praised of you, for most excellēt mē euē sent of God to geue light to the world, because there were in the cōgregatiōs of the sincere in the Lord, as illumined preachers of the word, as they. But wher as the truth is, as you say, that Luther, and Zuīglius were the first that cam to the knoulege ād prechīg of the Gospel (which is none in dede) and wher as it remaineth to this day, not ōly in the bokes that are writē, but in the memories of mē that knew those daies, that before Luther and Zuīglius made a tumult in Religiō, ther was not in al Christēdō any other ꝓfessiō of faith, thā was sene in our Church which we know to be Catholik: it foloweth that your church cā not possibly be the Church of Christ, the cōtinuāce of which your church cā so litle be ꝑceiued, that yourselues know, it begā to com furth in Frier Luther and Sir Zuīglius time.

[Page]In whiche Churche there was so little order, that ye can name neither Superin­tendēt, nor minister, nor preacher, nor bro [...]her of it that liued before the most excellēt mē Luther and Zuinglius: and which Churche was so inuisible, that ye neuer sawe so much as any forme of com­munion table pulpit, vestiment, or other thing vsed in it.

Yet, we see this by experience, that when a cumpany of heretikes doth mete togeather, they wil not be longe without theyr preacher (euerie one is so readie to be preacher) and they can not be with­out some place, and they wil make harde shifte but they will haue a good place: which is the cause, that so many reque­stes haue bene made to Gouernours of certaine Countries, and so manie Reli­gious houses and Churches haue bene hewed and squared for the receiuing of the newe Ghospel.

Therefore if there was anie congre­gation extant of this your Church, before [Page 131] Frier Luther lay with Nonne Katerine and begate manie foule and filt hic opini­ons of his owne braine: and if that Church was the true Apostolik Church, and had so continued from the begin­ning: thē had they places to resort vnto, and they vsed such order, as they had re­ceiued of theyr Forefathers, and you are hable to name the place and tel vs theyr Order.

But we can he are of no such thing: er­go there was no Church of yours at all as then. Add then now vnto this, that Lu­thers Church began with Luther, and so furth euery Church sens Luther hath begon with the Diuiser of it: And consi­der, that the true Church of Christe can haue no suche discontinuance or inter­ruption, as that it shoulde be saied after manie hundred yeares comming in be­twene, in which one forme of Religion was vsed: now is Luther or Zuinglius sent of God to geaue lyght vnto the world: Gather, I saie these thinges to­gether, [Page] and ye shal perceiue, that either Christ had no church hūdred of yeres to­gether, and that yet he hath none: or els that our Catholike Church is the one and only church of Christ. For alother Chur­ches haue either discōtinued, either they haue not bene sensiblie perceiued, either they haue ben within memorie erected, and so they lacke Succession, visiblenes, Antiquitie.

Of whiche three pointes, the Church that Luther and Zuinglius went vnto, when they departed from the Catholi­kes, had not one. But afterwardes when they became them selues builders of A new Church, ād that vpon theyrown hea­des and Authoritie (for they acknowled­ged no creature then liuing for theyr su­periour in that mater) thē in dede, it was not long but they gote one of the forsaied three pointes. For they kepte such a sore sturre against all Christendome, that it was most euidēt, that they were a visible Congregation. But as for succession, and [Page 132] antiquitie, they can neuer get it, because they can neuer proue it: for why, they ne­uer had it. Yet for Antiquitie they wil striue, and crake (as the Authours of the Apologie doe) that they doe come as neere as they possiblye can, to the Church of the Apostles and of the old Fathers. But in the point of Succession, they can not tell, what to aunswer for them selues.

For how,Let the heretiks shevv their suc­cession. thinke they is it possible, that the Church of Christ should be without the lauful successiō of the Apostles? Could his wisdom not for see it, that for as much as he minded cōtinually to cal in gheasts vnto his feast: therefore it was necessary to prouide seruants, one after another, for that purpose? Would his chartie suf­fer it, that togeather with the Apostles deathes his cōpassion vpō the poore soules of the world, shuld die, ād that ther shuld not be for euery age vnto the worlds end, like officers (for their authority) as th' Apo­stles wer, to dispēse his graces ād mercies? [Page] Could not his power perfourme it, that come who would, none shoulde be hable to staie the succession of his Lieutenants and Vicars?

What then can the heretike nowe say, why he hath not a succession? A thing so necessary for the wisedome of God to pro­uide, and so natural for his Charitie, to geaue, and so proper, for his almightines to maintain. Verely were it not, that he is almightie, it is impossible by naturall po­wer and reason, that the Bishop of Rome, whom heretikes haue alwaies hated, at whom the greatest Bishopes in the East Churche haue enuied, with whō Lordes ād Ladies of the world haue ben so much offended, whom the Barbarous haue so ofte assaulted, whom the Christians at home haue so trobled: that he yet, should continue still, and alwaies haue a succes­sour, it passeth al cūpasse of mans wisdom and prouisiō, but that he that made him his Vicar in earth, is God almightie in [...]eauen and earth.

[Page 133]In some other thinges the heretikes maie so contend with the Catholikes, that it will be hard for the indifferent man certainlie to knowe whom he maie folowe. They wil alleage the same letter of the Scriptures as the Catholikes doe, they wil vse the same coūcels, ād fathers, They wil challenge Antiquitie, and say that they haue descended from the Apo­stles (like as Parking Warbecke saied he came of king Edward the fourths bloud, and what so easie as to saie a worde, if one will be desperate, and die rather in field than vnsaie it) but when they are brought to the mater of succession, in which they lacke the verie bare names, and much more the Actes and Monu­mentes of such as they should shewe to haue descēded lineally and orderly from the Apostles, doune vnto them: then loe they are at a staie, and haue not one wise worde left to them, by which they might aunswer a question so principall and so reasonable.

[Page]And yet they crake stil that they are come to the Churche of the Apostles, and of the old Catholike Bishops and Fathers, whiche Churche (saie they with exceding blindnes or impudencie) we know hath hithervnto ben sound and perfite, Con. 322. and (as Tertullian ter­meth it) a pure Virgine spotted as yet with no Idolatrie, nor with any foule or shamefull faulte. Note (Gentle Reader) that they speake of theyr know­ledge, and excepte theyr knowledge be so diuine and ineffable, that neither we can conceaue it, nor they well vtter it: desire thē to be so good, as to make vs also knowe it.

For if they knowe the Apostolike Churche, to be hythervnto sounde, perfite, and pure: lette them tell vs where it was in the yeare of our Lorde 1500. or, 1400. or, 1300. The Churche of Rome is knowen, to haue stoode in those yeares: but all the sorte of them holde it for A Principle, that manie [Page 134] errours and faultes were founde then in it. Ergo if (by theyr saieing) that Church had errours: what other Church was there, in those dayes whiche they knowe to haue bene sound, perfite, and pure? They can reken none at all. For al these Weast partes of Christendome fo­lowed the Church of Rome: and they thē selues confesse, that the Greeke Churche doeth erre. Ergo, if the Churche of Rome was not sounde, and perfite, in those foresaied yeares, and if the Greeke Churche be notorious for the errours of it: howe doe these Felowes knowe, that the Apostolike Church hath hither­vnto bene sound and perfite?

For what signifieth hithervnto, but euen vnto our time? And if the Aposto­like Church hath ben found and perfite euen vnto our time: there was suche a Churche vndoubtedlie in the yeares of our Lorde 1500. 1400. and 1300. and that Churche was not (as they holde) the Churche of Rome: Ergo some other. [Page] But there was no other that they knowe to haue ben sound, perfite, and pure: Ergo they speake more then they know, and ioyne thēselues close to the Aposto­like Church without any succession from the Apostles, and crake of a pure ād per­fite building without anie foundation. Such is theyr miserable and blind brag­gyng.

How much more trulie should ye con­clude, that for as much as the Apostolike Churche not onely hath bene hytherto sound ād pure in doctrin, but must also cōtinue sound and pure vnto the world end: and for as much as no Church hath cōtinued so, but only the church of Rome, therfore he that maketh accompt of euer­lasting life, can not possibly attaine vnto it, excepte he come to that Churche, in which only the succession continueth, by which it is easie to ascend vp euen to the chiefe of the Apostles. For to S. Peter our Sauiour saieth:Math. 1 [...]. Thou art [...]eter or a Rock, and vpō this Rocke I wil build [Page 135] [...]y church, ād the gates of hel shal not [...]reuail against it. [...]uc. 2 [...] Again for thee [...]eter I haue praied, that thy faith should not [...]aile and thou being once turned con­firme thy bretherne. Againe, to S. Pe­ter he committeth his whole flocke, say­ing,Ioan, 21. feede my lambes fede my sheepe. To S. Peter then as the singularly chosen the promises are made, and the priuile­ges are by praier obtained, ād the charge by expresse worde is committed.

Nowe, for confirmation of these wordes, consider the effectes that haue folowed, what heresie was euer maintei­ned by the See of Rome? What question was there euer in the Church of Christ, and not referred to that See, and deter­mined or pacified by it? What See hath continued in al tempestes, but onlie the See of Rome? Who can shewe theyr succession from the Apostles, but onlie the Bishopes of Rome? What See is pre­ferred in the writinges of holy Fathers, but the See of Rome onlie? That is the [Page] Chaire, vnto which perfidiousnes can haue no accesse, [...] That is the chaire of vnitie, in which God hath put the do­ctrine of veritie, [...] That is the Chaire, in which euill men are constrayned to speake good thinges, that the faith of the Christians may be out of doubt with them, whiles it shall depend vpon the infallible promises of God, and not vpon the deceiptful coniectures of men.

This Churche therefore being the Church which we cal Catholik, in which the chiefe Master of the worke laied S. Peter as the first stone next to himselfe, and in which there is a continual rew of Bishops one vpon an other to the merue­lous strengthning and beautifieng of the whole building, against which Church it is impossible, that any wind or weather should so preuaile, as it might ouerturne it (for it is builded vpon a sure Rocke) in which Church also there is the presence of the Holyghost sent of our Sauiour to teach it all truth, and to tarie with it [Page 136] for euer: these thinges being most eui­dent and consequent, what a blasphe­ [...]ouse lye is it, to say, that Christ hath told longe before, that this Churche should erre? For what other thīg is that to say, but to blaspheme either the wise­dō of God, as though he had not erected a church that should not erre: or his power, as though he could not bring it to passe: or his Charitie, as though he would not: or his veritie, as though he had not sayed, poynting to S. Peter,Math. 1 [...]. vpon this Rock I wil build my Churc [...]e, and againe, I haue prayed for thee Peter, Luc. 22. that thy Faith might not faile?

But for this tyme this is inough, to note only the blasphemie: he that wil see is more largely betraied and conuinced, let him reade Doctor Saunders booke lately set furth of the Rocke of the Church.

The 12. Of the Contradictions.

Martin Luther & Hulderycke Zuin­glius,Apolog. [...]74. abeing most excellent men, euen sent of God, to geue light to the worlde, firste came vnto the knowledge of the Gospell.

ERgo before their tyme,Confut. ther was a generall darknes in the world.

I wysse it is not so harde a matter to find out Gods Church:Apolog. .24.for the Church of God is set vpō an hill & glistering place.

Ergo Luther and Zuinglius could not be the first that shoulde see the Church,Confut. except either Christ had no Church at all in the world whē Luther was borne, or except a Citie set vpon an hil (and for that purpose vndoubtedly sette, that it might be sene) should not yet be sene, be­fore Luther came in with his lanthorn.

We saye we haue no meede at all,Apolog. 125.by our owne workes and dedes.

Ergo it booteth not to labour,Confut. except it be for nothing.

[Page 137]God hath plucked vs out from the po­wer of darknes,Apolog. 225.to serue the liuing God, to cut away all the remanents of synne, and to worke out Saluation in feare and trembling.

Ergo that is not without some meede and rewarde,Confut. by which we worke our saluation.

Our Aduersaries must be heaued frō their mother,Apolog. 194.that is, from this vaine co­loure and shadow of the Church.

Ergo ye should vtterly d [...]spise the Church,Confut. especially as it is now, if yo [...]r ad­uersaries mother be of no substance, but a vaine colour only.

To say truely,Apolog. 192.we doe not despise the Chu [...]che of these men, how so euer it be ordered by them now adayes.

[...]rgo the Catholiks Church is no vaine colour of a Church,Confut. seing that your selues dare not despise it.

[...] popes had neuer hitherto leisure to [...] and earnes [...]e of those matters.Apolog 19. [...], some other cares do let them and [...]iuers waies pul them.

[Page]Item, [...]61.they compt these thinges to be but cōmon and trifling studies, and no­thing to appertaine to the Popes wor­thines.

Ergo being so carelesse,Confut. they would ne­uer haue perceiued the case of their Re­ligion, nor procured men to defend it.

There haue ben wylily procured by y Bishop of Rome,Apolog.certaine persons of e­loquence inough, and not vnlearned nei­ther, which should put their helpe to this cause now almoste despaired of.

Item. In deede they perceyued, that their owne cause did euery where goe to wracke.

Ergo it appeareth,Confut. that the Popes haue had care of the cause of Religion.

In this point (that is, lifting vp the Sacrament) consisteth nowe all theyr Religion.Apolog 250.

Ergo al is not in salt,Confut. water &c.

In these thinges (they meane salt, wa­ter,Apolog. 255.Oyle, spittle, Palme) they haue set all their Religion.

Ergo all is not in lifting vp the Sa­crament.Confut.

[Page 138]What fault haue they once acknow­ledged and confessed?Apolog. 209.

Why burden ye then vs with not a­mending manifest and ofte confessed faultes?Confut.

Of so many,Apolog 291.so manifest, so often con­fessed by them, and so euident errours, what one haue they amended?

Why aske you then,Confut. what faulte we haue once confessed?

For so much as we were most ascerte­ned of God his will,Apolog. 327.and comp [...]ed it a wicked thing, to be careful and ouercū ­bred about y iudgments of mortal men.

Therefore ye should haue neuer called a Synode of mortal men.Confut. Yet it foloweth.

Therefore we thought good to reme­die our Churches by a prouincial Sinod.Apolog.

But what neded a remedy by a Synod,Confut. if mortal mens iudgmentes are not to be cared for?

Our cause against the wil of Empe­roures from the beginning,Apolog. .15.against the willes of so many Kinges, in spite of the Popes, and almost maugre the head of al men hath taken encreace &c.

[Page]You neuer nede then,Confu.. to aske leaue that your Gospel may procede, if it be so victo­rious and trium [...]hant, that maugre the head of al men almost, it take encrease.

Let them geue the Ghospell free pas­sage,Apolog 133.let the trueth of Ihesu Christ geue his clere light, & stretche furth his bright beames into all partes.Confut.

Ergo your procedinges are not so cur­rant and forceable, but that ye are faine to aske leaue, that no man stoppe you of your passage.

We might easely be brought to atone­ment touching all th [...]se matters,Apolo. 348.were it not that ambition, gluttonie and excesse did let it. Hence cōmeth their whining, theyr hart is on their halfpeny.

How saie ye then to the ignorance, Confut. errour, Superstition, and Idolatrie, which ye lay to our charge, should there be no odds betwene you and vs for them? And is this only the matter that causeth dissension, that you contemne glorie, and P [...]sts desire it: you liue temperatly, and Papistes are gloutenous: you kepe a mea­sure [Page 139] in al thinges, and Papistes exceede? O where is your Charitie, to bea [...]e with your euen Christians infirmitie? Or where is your wisdome, to forsake the vnitie of a Religion for the diuersity of manners and conditions?

For our partes,Apolog. 19 [...].if we could haue iud­ged ignorance, error, superstition, Idola­try, mens inuentions, and the same com­mōly disagreing with the holy Scriptu­res, either pleased God, or to be sufficient for the obtayning of euerlasting saluati­on &c we graunt there had bene no cause at all, why we shoud haue lefte these mens companie.

Saie ye so indeede? Put the case then that in the Catholikes ye might find the faultes of imbition and glotonie? I know the place where ye saie, that suche causes did let your at one mē [...] with thē Whether your hart thē also be not vpō your half­peny? Peraduēture it is. But without per aduenture, either your mind is not vpon that which ye speake, either ye care not how ye agre with yourselues whē ye speak.

The 13. and last Chapter, Of the false Interpretations of the Latine Apo­logie of the English Church.

All Bishops be of lyke Prehemi­nence.53. Correcte, and reade. Be of like merite.
Non de [...]init esse substātia panis, vel natura vini, the sub­stance of the bread or nature of y wine ceaseth not so to be.98. It is not so in the Latine, And therefore leaue out this So.
Mystica symbo­la manēt in priori sua substātia, figura & specie. The my­ [...]icall Signes re­maine in their for­mer substāce, forme and kind.100. In their for­mer substance, fi­gure and shape.
Pauperes de Lug duno. The Friers of Ly [...]ns.206. The poore bretherne rather, or Heretikes of Ly­ons.
Aduocabātur ad Ecclesiasticarū causarū cognitionem. They were called and made acquain­ted with ecclesiasti­call matters.279. They were called to the hea­ring and decreeing of Ecclesiasticall matters.
Petrus à Soto. Petrus Asotus.287. Peter of Soto.
Cū vocatus esset ab Imperatore ad Conciliū C [...]sariēse. whē he was called by the Emperour to his Councell at Cesarea.297. To the Coun­cel of Cesarea.
Videmus pios Principes procura­tionē Ecclesiarum ab officio suo nun [...] putasse alienā. We see that good Prin­ces euer tooke the Administration of Ecclesiasticall mat­ters to perteine to their dutie.304. The proctor­ship, or procurati­on, or prouiding for Churches.

[Page]NOWE therefore to conclude, whether the Authours of the Apologie in the Church in Eng­land, can discharge themselues of so eui­dent faultes as they are burdened with­all by D. Harding, it may sone be t [...]ied by this briefe shewe and Recapitulation which I haue made of theyr faultes. If they cleare themselues, then shall we see wōders. If they faile in theyr defence, God geaue men the grace to build vppon surer ground, than such mens Authori­ties. So maie they returne againe vnto the Church, from which they haue de­parted very hastely, and so may they haue forgeuenesse of all their faulties, in the Church, that hereafter they maie liue euer­lastinglie.


This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal. The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission.