¶ An introduccyon to the mater. Caput primum.

¶ Nowe my frynde Gyngem [...]n becaw [...]e thou say dest cre whyle that thou woldest proue to me by naturall reason and good phi loso [...]hye / that there is a purgatorye: where the sowle of man after that yt is separate frome the bodye shall be [...] and puryfred: I praye the lette me knowe thyne opynyon therin / and let me here what reasons thou cāst alege therfore.

¶ I shall proue the that or thou go yf thou wylte abyde the argument therof / and pacyently wyth good delyberacyon here me. Comyngo. ¶ I shall be contente to gyue dylygent herynge therto / but yet I praye the then to suffer me to answere the and to obiecte and to replye against the / wh [...]n that I thynke in myne opynyon that thy argumētes and reasons be not suffycyent to satysfye my mynde.

¶ Therwyth I am well content / and thy request is reaso­nable. For wyth reasons and argumentes made pro et contra / and on bothe partyes answered / replyed / and obiected / the truthe of euery pro­posycyon shlal soner and better be knowen: but yet one thynge I wyll warne the / consyderynge that my onely purpose is to proue the thynge by reason / that in thy reasons and obieccyons agaynst me / that thou a­ledge no maner texte nor authoryte / neyther of the bokys of the olde by­ble / nor of the newe testament: neyther of no other boke / of that that thou calleste the holy scrypture of the deuynrte of thy crrsten faythe / nor of the lawes made therfore: whyche thou by thy faythe arte bounde to belyue. For thou mayst well knowe / yt wyll be but a thynge in vayne to aledge suche textrs or authorrtees to me / for that that I and all other turkys of our lawes and secte wyll vtterly denye many of the prynciples and many of the text [...]s and authorrtees of thy crysten beleue and farth.

¶ Because thou [...] so I shall not trouble the wyth aled­gynge of any suche textrs or authorrtees of our fayth or lawe. And ther fore I praye the lykewyse [...]se the same maner vnto me / nor aledge thou no texte nor authorytees of the boke of thy lawe callyd the Alcoron / nor of ony other boke of thy Machomett [...]s lawe / for yf thou do / I wyll be as redy to denye those textes and authorytees of thy faythe and lawe / as thou wylte be redy to denye those textes and authorytees of my beleue & fayth.

¶ It is but [...]eash thou shuldest so do therfore let vs [Page] now bothe ley all textys and authorytees of eyther of oure beleuys and lawys appart: and se how we can proue by reason and good naturall phi losophy that there is a purgatorye / where that mennys sowles shulde be purged and puryfyed.

¶But I thynke yt wyll be harde for the to proue yt. Therfore I pray the begynne and let me here thy reason.

¶wyth ryght good wyll / but yet then fyrst or that I pro­cede to that mater concernynge purgatorye / thou must fyrst graunte me two pryncyples or conclusyons. One is that there is a god aboue all / whyche ruleth and gouerneth all / and conserueth and kepepyth all / and regardeth and taketh hede to all. A nother is that the soule of man is im­mortall / and shall neuer dye / but hathe a lyfe perpetuall.

¶As to those two poyntys I muste nedys graunt the.

¶what moueth the to graunt them so sone.

¶Mary because y^• our holy scrypture sheweth yt and techeth vs so. And also all our lawes byn­deth vs and cōpellyth vs to belyue it.

¶ye but yet lay all the scry pture & lawes apart and tell me what thynkest thou by those two poynte in naturall reason.

¶By my trouth I thynke that no man onely by reason can proue that there is a god that gouerneth all / conser­ueth all / and taketh hede to all / nor that that the soule of man is immor­tall and dothe neuer dye.

¶yes I shall proue to the bothe those poyntys by reason / so that thyne onely reason shall iudge them to be true / yf thou wylt d [...]scretly scretly consyder yt and serche yt profoundly and put & gyue thy reason therto delyberatly to dyscusse yt.

¶By what reason canst thou fyrst proue that there is a god that gouerneth all.

¶Harke and I shall shewe the.

¶That god was wythout begynnynge and the fyrst cawse of all thynge. Cap. ii.

Hyrst I trust thou wylt graūt me that there was euermore a thyng or nothyng / somwhat or no what / beyng or not beyng.

¶As to y^t I must nedys graunt / that there was euer a thing or no thyng as the laten men call it / res vel nihil / somwhat or no what which they call aliquid vel non aliquid / beyng or not beyng / whych they call esse vel non esse / for as the phylosopher saythe omnium oppositorū alterū est vetū / of two thynges opposyte or contradyctoryes euermore the one must nedys be true.

¶Then thus / euery thynge is somewhat / and euery thyng that is somwhat is beynge / so that a thyng / somwhat / and beyng / signifye one sence / and also theyr contraryes / nothyng / no what / and not beynge / do sygnyfye all one sence.

¶That is true.

¶Then furthermore whether was ther a thyng before nothyng / [Page] or nothynge before a thynge.

¶Mary a thynge must nedis be before nothynge / or ellys the worlde nor nothynge therin now cowde be / for of nothyng nothyng can procede nor come.

¶Ther in thou sayste truthe for one contrary can neuer brynge forth hys contra ry / for yf that onys nothynge was beynge then of that nothynge can ne­uer come a thynge or beynge / for of nothynge nought can be made / ther­fore yt foloweth well that there was euermore a thynge beynge. And thā that thynge whyche was euer before all other thynges muste nedys be wythout begynnyng for euery thynge that is made or create had a cause of hys begynnynge / ergo then yt must folowe that that thynge whyche was fyrste of all made / muste nedys haue a maker / whyché was vnmade for yf ony thynge were before that thynge whyche thou callest the fyrste maker / then that whych thou callest the fyrst maker / can not be called the fyrst maker and the fyrst cause of all / because yt hath a nother maker or a nother cawse before yt / so yt must nedys folowe that there is one thynge whyche was the fyrst maker and fyrst cawse of all thynges / whyche hathe no maker nor no cause ther / ofout of whō as of the very founteyne of all cawsys euery thynge is deryued / and taketh hys beynge / so that thynge whyche was fyrst beynge / must nedys be the cause and foundacyon of all thyng / b of all beyng / and that fyrst cause or fyrst maker can haue no be­gynnynge but was euer wythout begynnynge / whyche fyrste cause and fyrst thynge amonge all people is called god / and that fyrst cause is most worthy to be called god.

¶That conclusyon foloweth so re sonably that yt can not be denyed.

¶That god is and shall be wythout ende. Capitulum. iii.

¶Then syth that god is the fyrst cawse of euery thynge / and the fyrst and pryncypall cause of the beynge of euery thynge / yt requyreth that there be in hym such a beynge so perf [...]te / that euery thyng not god / haue a nother beynge whyche must lacke somwhat of the perfec cion of his beyng / so that his beyng must be the most perfyte most substā cyall beonge / & the most sure beyng that is or can by.

¶what than.

¶Than further that thynge hath the moste perfyte beynge / the moste substancyall beynge and the moste sure beynge / whych shall neuer haue ende / for yf yt shall haue an ende / it is not most perfyte / moste substauncyall and moste sure beynge / but yt must be suche a beyng whyche excludyth euery unperfeccyon that so wnyth or tendyth to not beynge / for perfyte beynge / substauncyall beynge and sure beynge / be all contraryaunt to not beynge / so that the one is repugnaunt to the othe [...] / and denyeth the other clerely. And therfore it must then nedy [...] folowe y^•. [Page] god whyche is the moost perfyte beynge / moost substauncyall and moost sure beynge / must haue a beynge that neuer shall haue ende. So there is no tyme paste in whyche he was not / nor no tyme present in whyche he is not / nor no tyme to come in whyche he shall not be: so of necessyte yt to loweth that hys beynge was euer wythout begynnyng / and is and shall be euer wythout ende.

¶ I must nedys affyrme the same.

¶ That god is moste of power and the moste no­ble thynge that can be. Cap. iiii.

¶ Then forthermore sythe that god is wythout begyn­nynge or ende and the cawse of euery thynge that is whyche hathe taken taketh or shall take any affecte / as I prouyd the before / and the cause is euer the more stronge than the effecte. And also the cawse is euer that / whyche hath power to make the effecte to be / therfore syth that god causeth all / therfore it must nedys folowe that god hath power to do all / and because he may do all / therfore conuenyently god is called omni­potent / and is moste of power and myght: and by the same reason also I may proue the nobylyte of god / for the cause is alway more noble than y^• effecte / and noblenes is that whyche hath leste nede of foreyne helpe / that is to saye of helpe of any other thynge / and than sythe god is the cause of all thyng / and euery other thynge taketh hys effecte by god / and cōmeth and procedeth of god as of his fyrst cause / and the cause as I sayd before is more noble thā the effect / and euery thyng that taketh any effect / hath nede of the caw [...]e / for that that wythout the cawse the effecte coud neuer haue bene / but the cawse hathe neuer no nede of the effecte / for the cawse may be wythout the effecte / but the effecte can not be without that cause: Therfore sythe that god is the fyrste cause of all thynge / yt must folowe that euery thynge hath nede of god / and that god hath nede of nothyng / and than syth that noblenes is that whyche hath no nede of foreyne help / or helpe of any other thyng / yt must of a necessary conclusyon folow that god is the most noble thynge that can be.

¶ I agre.

¶ That god is the very lyfe / and that he hathe the moste ioyfull and pleasaunte lyfe that can be. Cap. v.

¶ Than moreouer sythe that I haue prouyd to the herē before that beynge and not beynge be two contraryauntys and that beynge muste nedys be before not beynge: so lykewyse lyfe and not lyfe be two contraryauntys / and yt requyreth that lyfe pro­cede and go before not lyfe / for that thynge whyche hathe no lyfe / can not be the onely cause that that thynge whyche hath lyfe. For that thinge which hath no lyfe nor neuer had lyfe / may not by his only power make a [Page] thynge to haue lyfe.

¶ All that is reasonable.

¶ But we see many thynges in the world / whiche haue lyfe as man & beest / ergo that lyfe whiche is in those creatures / is deryuyed and procedeth & cam [...] fyrst of that creatour whiche is the very lyfe / and in whom fyrst must ne­dys be lyfe. For as a founteyne / whyche is the very grounde and cause of all the tyuets and brokys of water / whiche come from that founteyne / of it self must nedis be the very water / so god whych is groūde and cause of all lyfe / must nede be ofhym selfe the very lyfe. And than syth that god is fyrst creatour and causer of euery thynge whiche hath lyfe / it foloweth than that in hym there was [...]uer a very lyfe / and that he is founteyne of all lyfe and that no lyfe can be so very and parfyte a lyfe as his lyfe / by­cause he is the fyrst grounde and cause of all l [...]fe. yet forthermore sythe that god is the ve [...]y lyfe and the groūde of all / and cause of euery thynge that hath lyfe / than that lyfe and lyuyng whych god hath / must be a plea­saunt and ioyfull lyfe / or ellys a paynfull and sorowfull lyfe. But yf it shuld be a paynfull and a sorowfull lyfe / than it coulde not be a parfyte & sure lyfe / but syth thou hast grauntyd to me here before that god hathe y^• moost parfyte and [...]urest be [...]ng that can be / and that whyche shall neuer haue ende / and sythe that payne and sorowe is that / whyche causeth the thyng to perysh whych suf [...]eryth y^t payne and sorow / bycause it is contra ry to the nature and desyre of the thynge whyche so suffereth. And case & pleasure doth cō [...]orte the nature of that thyng whych suffereth that ease and pleasure / and incr [...]aseth it / and causeth it the lenger to contynewe. So yf that the b [...]ynge and lyuynge of god shuld be a lyfe and beynge in payne and sorow / that paynfull and sorowful lyfe / shuld be the cause that his beynge shuld not be parfyte / but shulde perysh at the last / and so not to haue an eternall and an infynyte beynge. But than syth his beynge is moost parfyte eternall / and neuer shall haue ende / it must nedys folowe that his lyfe must nedys be a ioyfull and pleasaunt lyfe / and the moost [...]oyfull and moost pleasaunt lyfe that can be.

¶ All that is conuenyent to graunt.

¶ That god hath knowlege and vnderstandynge / and knoweth euery thynge that euer was / is / or shalbe Caput. vi.

¶ Than by the same reason that pueth hym to be y^• very lyfe / I may well proue his knowlege and vnderstandynge: for that thynge whyche hath no knowlege nor vnderstandynge / can not be onely cause of that thynge / whyche hath knowlege and vnderstandynge And also as I sayd to the erewhyle / bycause the beynge of god / is y^• fyrst beyng and the cause of the beyng of euery thyng / and the moost parfyte / [Page] moost substauncyall / and moost sure beynge / It must than folow that he must haue the moost noble and moost worthy byenge that can be imagy­ned or thought to be / and than that thynge which hath beyng & lyfe also / is more worthy and more noble / than that thynge which hath but beyng onely / as the tre and herbe / whiche haue a quycknes of a lyfe wherby they growe & increase / haue a more noble and worthy beyng / than a deed stok or a deed stone which grow not. And as the brute beest which hath a lyfe sensytyue and power to moue it selfe / and memorye / hathe a more noble and a more worthy beynge / than the tree or the herbe / whyche hathe but quyckenynge and growynge without power to moue or memory. And also as the beyng of man / whych hath both lyfe sensytyue power to moue memory / and vnderstandynge / hath a more noble and a more worthy be yng / than the brute beest / whiche hath but lyfe sensytyue power to moue and memorye without vnderstandynge. So it must nedys folowe that vnderstanding is the cause of the moost noble and moost worthy beyng / & than sythe that god hath the moost noble beyng & moost worthy beyng that can be / it must nedis folow that in god there must be knowlege and vnderstandyng / and that the same beynge of god must be with the same knowlege and vnderstandynge. And than yf the beynge of god / as I haue prouyd to the here before / be without begynnynge and endynge / eterne / infyn [...]te and without measure / his vnderstandynge must nedys be without begynnynge and endynge / eterne and infynyte without me­sure. And also syth his beyng is / and hath be euer moost perfyte / and as he hym selfe may be hym selfe / so may he hym selfe vnderstande hym self / so his beynge can not be seueryd from his knowlege and vnderstādyng / nor his knowlege & vnderstandynge seueryd from his beynge. So must it than folow / that he vnderstandeth all and knoweth euery thynge that was / is / or / shalbe / and euery mānys thought / and euery acte done in the worlde or that shalbe done in the worlde / so that euery thynge is present to his knowlege.

¶ That conclusyon pleaseth me well.

¶ That god is the hye good thynge and moost perfyte goodnes and the very truthe. Caput. vii.

¶ Than further as beyng and not beynge be two contra ryauntys and repugnauntes / and some call them contradyctoryes that is to say / that the one alway doth denye & with saye the other / and as lyfe and not lyfe be two contraryauntes / and where suche two cō traryauntes be / euery thynge in the worlde is verefyed vpō one of them / and nothynge in the worlde can be verefyed vpon them bothe / for euery thynge in the worlde is god or not god / and euery thynge is a man or not a man / and euery thynge in the worlde that is / hath lyfe or no lyfe. So I say that good and not good / which we call euyll / be two contrary auntes. Than it must nedys folowe y^• syth god is beynge / that god must [Page] nedys be eyther a good thynge or an euyll thynge. But yf god shuld be of hym selfe a [...] euyll thynge / than there coude no goodnesse procede nor come of god / for one contrary of it selfe onely / can not brynge forth his contrary. But we see that there be many good thynges / whyche come from god and be of the creacyon of god / and also euery good thynge ta­keth his goodnes of god / for y^t god is the fyrst cause of euery good thing. Therfore god of whome euery good thynge cometh / and of whome all goodnes procedeth / must nedys be hym selfe the hye good thynge / and the very and moost hye goodnes / and that in no wyse god may be euyll,

¶ As for that no reasonable man may denye,

¶ That vertue is euermore in god. Caput. viij.

¶ Than lykewyse as good and euyll be two contrary­auntys / so truthe and falshed be two contraryauntys: therfore god must than be eyther truthe or falshed / but falshed is of the kynde of euyll / and truthe is of the kynde of goodnes / and than syth god is the very goodnes and the hye good thynge hym selfe / and falshed is of y^• kynde of euyll / it must nedys folowe that god in no wyse may be false / but that he hym selfe must be the very truthe. And than syth I haue proued vnto the that god is a beynge and a thynge without begynnynge or endyng / and the moost perfyte thyng / the moost substauncyal thynge / and moost sure thynge / the very truthe and the best thynge / god must haue in hymselfe the best propertees that can be.

¶ I graūt well.

¶ Than I praye the answere me to this / is not vertue the best properte that can be in god.

¶ If I shuld answere the ther­to / we must fyrst agre what thynge vertue is.

¶ I thynke that vertue is nothyng ellys / but the dysposycyon of the mynde well or­deryd / so y^t vertue resteth euer in y^e mynde / as whan the mynde doth consent and agre to goodnes. And I thynke that all clerkes wyll agre to y^• same.

¶ And I thynke the same / and that vertue is nothynge ellys but a good mynde: for alway whan the mynde consentyth to good­nes / than there is vertue / whether it be in god or in his creatures / and this consent to goodnes is euermore in god.

¶ Thā syth the mynde and wyll of god doth euermore consent to goodnes / it folo­weth well that vertue must euermore be in god.

¶ I must nedys affyrme the same.

¶ That iustyce must be euermore in god, and god is euer ryghteous and iuste. Caput. ix.

¶ Then furthermore whyther is iustyce belongynge and incydent to vertue or no.

¶ It must nedys be so / for all clerkes haue dyffynyd, that iustyce is a constant and a perpetuall wyll gyuyng to euery thynge his owne, and therfore me thynketh it must ne­dys folowe, that iustyce must nedys be a good thynge and an hye excel­lent vertue. ¶ Thou sayst truthe, & by that hye excellent vertue of iustyce god doth rule and gouerne all, and that same selfe iustyce is the constant well of god, wherby he gouerneth all the worlde and euery thyng therin, in a conuenyent and reasonable ordre, and so it must folowe that god is euer ryghteous and iuste

¶ That god is euer mercyfull. Caput. x.

BUt now forther I wyll demaunde of the whyther mercy be a good properte and incydent to vertue or no.

¶ Than lette vs fyrst lyke as I sayd, before agree betwene vs, what we call mercy.

¶ I thynke that mercy is nothynge ellys, but a louynge mynde of a pytefull affecte. And syth that mercy is incydent to vertue / than it must be euer in god, so y^t alwayes god by his iustyce dothe gyue punysh­ment & rewarde to euery one as he doth deserue, so by his mercy he dothe remytte punyshment, and inlargeth the rewarde.

¶ That conclusyon is bothe proper and reasonable.

¶ That the iustyce and mercy of god be correspondent and y^t the one can not be without the other. Caput. xi.

¶ Than forther syth y^t iustyce and mercy be both incydent and alwayes belongynge to vertue, it foloweth of necessyte y^t iustyce & mercy must alway be in god, & y^t his iustyce can not be w^tout his mercy / nor his mercy without iustyce. And than it must nede folow y^t god dothe neuer punysh no creature by his iustice, but that by his mercy his punysh ment must be lesse than he doth deserue: & also that god doth rewarde no creature by his iustyce / but that by his mercy whiche is a louyng pytefull mynde / he doth gyue hym a greater rewarde thā he doth deserue. For by his iustyce he gyueth punyshmēt cōdigne & dew / & by his mercy he remyt teth agayn parte of the punyshment, and also by his iustyce he gyueth re warde cōdigne & dew / and by his mercy & goodnes he inlargeth & gyueth more rewarde therto. So it foloweth for a necessary cōclusyō / y^t the iusty ce of god & thy mercy of god / be euer correspondent & correlatyue / & y^t the one can not be without the other / and that god is euer iuste & mercyfull.

¶By my trouth this is a merueylous goodly conclusyon.

¶ That god doth gouerne all / & conserueth all / and doth take hede to all. Cap. xii.

¶ Than now to the purpose that I spake of in the begyn nynge / Syth that god is infynyte and seeth and knoweth all / and is hym selfe the hye good thynge and the excellent goodnes / and vsyth euer his iustyce and mercy whych be euer correspōdent to gyther / yt must nedys folowe that he by his iustyce and mercy doth rule all and gouerne all / and cōserueth and kepeth all the worlde & euery thynge therin.

¶ Thou haste dryuen that conclusyon vpon so many reasonable pryncy­ples that I can not denye it.

¶ Than yet forther I muste aske of the an other questyon / is not loue a thynge & properte belongyng to vertue.

¶yes mary it must nedys be so / for in y^• loue of god and thy neyghbour for goddes sake restyth all vertue.

¶ why than yt must nedys folowe that loue muste be euermore in god and that god doth loue the world / or ellys he wold not by his prouydence gouerne it and conserue it as he doth / and than he can not gouerne yt & conserue yt / except he regarde yt and take hede to yt and to euery thynge contey­ned in the world / and to euery acte and dede whych is done in the world.

¶ All that I graunt well.

¶ Than syth that he regardeth and taketh hede to the worlde / and to euery one of his crea­tures / he wyll of a congruens moste specyally take hede to his creatures here in yerth / whyche be moste worthy and noble / but man is most wor­thy and noble of all his creatures in yerth / because he is moste lyke vnto god.

¶ why is man more lyke to god than any other creature in yerth.

¶ Because that man hath both knowlege and vn derstandynge as god hathe / and so hath no nother creature in yerth / and therfore of cōuenyence yt must than nedys folowe that god doth regarde and take hede to man and to the actys and dedys of men. And than yt must forther folow that he must punysh and rewarde euery acte and dede done by man after his deseruynge accordynge to his iustyce and mercy.

¶ All reason wyll agre to the same.

¶ That god is euery where / & alway in euery place of the worlde. Cap. xiii.

Than yet forther as touchynge the meruelous exystens of god / thou remembrest I she wed the ere whyle that euery thynge in the world is present to syght and knowlege of god. And than he must nedys knowe euery thynge / and euery mannes thought and wyll / an [...] as I sayde to the before becawse his knowlege an [...] vnderstandynge ex­tendeth so large that he knoweth euery thyng / euery where and in euery [Page] place and because his knowlege can not be seueryd from hys beynge nor hys beynge frome hys knowlege / yt foloweth well that he must be euery where and in euery place.

¶ That conclusyon wyll be mer­uelous harde to proue.

¶ yes that conclusyon I can proue the by an other reason and argument.

¶ I praye the howe.

¶ Thou knowest well I shewed and proued to the erewhyle / that god is the fyrst cause of all thynge and all beynge. And that there is no other fyrst nor pryncypall cause of the beynge of the worlde but onely god: and that god is the onely cause therof / and there is none other me­dyat cause therof but only god. Than thus as the phylosopher sayth and where the cause ceasyth the effecte ceasyth. As thus yf there be one cause of the beyng of a thynge / yf that cause be taken away and be absent from the thynge / than that thynge can no longer haue beynge / nor can no lon­ger contynue but muste cease for to be / and because god is the fyrste and onely cause of the worlde and of euery parte of the worlde / and no other cause but onely god / yf god shuld be absent from the worlde / or from any parte of the worlde. The worlde from whyche he shulde be so absent / or that parte of the worlde / from whyche he shulde be so absent / cowde not be nor no longer contynue / but nowe becawse there can not be putte an example lyke thereto in all poyntes / yet shall I put the a famyliare example / that somwhat shall be resemble therto: as the fyre and the flame therof / for we se by experyence that the fyre is the cause of the flame / therfore yf the fyre be clerely taken away the flame can not be / nor no longer con­tynue. And where so euer the flame is there the fyre must nedys be: and where so euer any parte of the flame is there the fyre must nedys be: so I saye of god and the worlde / where so euer the worlde is there god muste nedys be / and where so euer any parte of the world is / there must god nedys be / therfore it muste nedys folowe that god is present euery where / in the worlde and in euery parte of the worlde / and no where absent / and therfore because that god is the fyrste cause of the worlde / and no nother cause of the worlde but onely god / yf god shulde be absent from the hole worlde and not present in the hole worlde / his absence shulde cawse the hole worlde to perysh. And also yf god shulde be present euery wher and in euery parte of the world that parte of the worlde from whens he is absent and not present / cowde no lenger remayne in his beynge / because as I sayde before / god is the fyrste and onely cause of the hole worlde and of euery parte of the worlde / and yf the cause shulde sease / the effect shulde sease / wherfore as I sayd before yt must folowe for a necessary conclusiō / that god is euery where and alwaye present in the worlde / and in euery parte and place of the worlde.

¶ Now I thanke the for that cō clusyō ple [...]seth me well / but yet there is one dout therin / wherin I wolde [Page] moue the and that is thus / yf that god be euery where in the worlde / and in euery place of the worlde / yt shulde s [...]me to some mennys fantasyes / y^t god of hymselfe shulde be dyuers thynges / or elles dyuers of his partys shulde be in dyuers placys. As one part of god to occupye one place / and a nother parte of god to occupye a nother place

¶ Nay not so yt must nedys folowe by reason that god is but one thynge and not dy­ners thynges / and that there be no mo goddys but one. And also that y^• same one god maye be hole in dyuers placys.

¶ I praye the by what reason may I knowe and vnderstande that.

¶ That god is but one thynge / and not dy­uers thynges. Cap. xiiii.

¶ As touchyng the fyrst that god is one thynge and that there be no mo goddys but one / thus yt may be prouyd / vnyte must be before pluralyte / or ellys pluralyte must be before vnyte / so that god must nedys be an vnyte or ellys a pluralyte / and euery pluralyte con systeth of two thynges whiche be dyfferent in them selfe / and two dyuers thyngys. But betwene euery two dyuers thynges is some dyscorde and varyaunce / for where is no maner of dyscorde of beynge there is but one thyng / but yf god were seuerall thynges and not one thynge / then shuld there be euer in hym a dyscorde and a varyaunce / and yf he had suche a beynge that euer varyed in hym selfe then had not he the noblest beynge / and the ioyfullest beynge / but a beyng myserable and wretched / therfore syth he hath the noblest beyng and most ioyful that can be / as I haue pro u [...]d to the before / yt must nedys folowe that god is but one thynge / and not dyuers.

¶ That there is but one god. Caput. xv.

ANd also by y^• same reason it folowetth that there must nedes be but one god and not many / for yf there were many goddis / other then those goddys agre amonge thē self in euery thynge & euery acte / or ellys they dysagre and dyscorde in euery thynge and euery acte / or ellys thyrdely they agre in some thyngys and dyscorde in some thyngys / but as to the fyrste / yf they agre in euery thynge ynd euery acte / then be they not many but one god / as to the seconde yf they dyscorde in euery thyng and in euery acte / then shulde there be no concorde in all the worlde nor the world nor nothyng ellys cowde neuer haue ben nor contynued / for y^• whyche the one shuld haue conserued / the other shuld haue destroyed. As to the thyrd poynte they agre in some thynges and in some thynges dys agre / then in those thynges in whych they dyscorde must be betwene thē varyaunce / then yf they varye betwene them selfe / neyther of them can haue the most noble and ioyfull beynge / but eche of them a beynge myse­rable And also yf there be two goddes / there must be of euery thyng two [Page] fyrst begynnynges / so neyther of them shulde be by hym selfe suffycyent. Also in euery kynde of thynges that which is the hyest of the same kynde is but one thynge / for the multytude of all seuerall men is reducyd in to one mankynde / the multytude of euery seuerall horse in to one kynde of horsys / and so of other / and the multytude of seuerall kyndys in to one generall begynnynge and hed of all kyndes / so the vnyuersall order of thynges is referryd to one hole & vnyuersall begynnynge. And lykewyse as euery synguler mater is reserryd in to one mater / euery membre of y^• world in to one hole member & body / so all seuerall nature be referryd to one hole nature / all seuerall lyfys to one lyfe / all seuerall mouers to one mouer / all seuerall orders to one hye hole ordener of al thynge / so it must nedys folowe that there is but one god and no mo / whyche is the fyrste cause / begynnynge / ruler and ordener of all thyngys / and is but one in hym selfe.

¶That god is hole in dyuerse placys. Caput. xvi.

ALso as to the other poynte it is not incōuenient y^• that same selfe one god may be hole in dyuers places / for thou seest by experyēce that the sowne of a thyng or a voyce or a worde spoken may be hole hard in dyuers placys / and of dyuers men atones & yet euery man hereth the hole voyce, sown, or worde / & yt reboūdyth hole in euery mānes erys. Al­so thy soule and lyfe of thy body is hole in thy hole body / and hole in eue­ry parte of thy body / or elles yf ꝑte of thy body (as thy hande or thy fot [...]) were cut away or destroyed ꝑte of thy soule were [...]ynysshed & destroyed but of that thou seest at thyne eye the contrary experyence / and so thou seest well that thy hole soule and lyfe is hole in dyuers placys / wherfore syth thou seest well y^t these thynges which be but y^e creatures of god / haue suche power of beynge y^t they may be hole in dyuers placys / yt foloweth wel that god that is creatour and cause of all / hath such power & nobilite of beynge that he maye be hole in dyuers placys.

¶Now that is one of the properyst conclusyons for my lernynge that euer I harde.

¶yet tary a lytell whyle / and I shall shew the a nother conclusyō touchyng y^e meruelous existens of god / whiche peraduenture shall please the as well as that.

¶That I wold be glad to here / therfore I pray the shewe me what yt is.

¶That god is eternall. Cap. xvii.

¶By these forsayd cōclusiōs I shall now proue to y^• y^• god is eternall.

¶Thou haste me thynketh prouyd that to me substauncyally all redy / for thou haste prouyd that god is infynyte wythout begynnyng or endyng / and that I call eternall.

¶Naye now I see well thou perceyuest not the perfyte grounde of thys [Page] thynge.

¶why what callest thou eternall.

¶For [...]othe Eternall / is y^e very ꝑfyte possession of all to gyther of lyfe intermynable / y^t is to say wythout chaūgynge of tyme / but all thynge y^t is in the worlde lyuynge in tyme / occupyeth tyme present / & procedeth from tyme past vn to tyme to come / for yt hath loste the tyme of yester daye / & yet occupyeth not the tyme of to morowe. For no man lyueth in thys lyfe but in thys present mouable & transytorye moment. And euery thynge that lyueth & is in thys worlde / occupyeth atones but one lytell moment of tyme / so y^• ioy that any creature can haue in thys lyfe is as no ioy / For I trow thou wylt graunt that that ioy / whych thou haddest yesterday / whych is now passyd / is now to the no ioy / and y^• ioy whyche thou shalt haue to morow not yet cōmen is yet to the no ioy / for yf the pleasure whych thou haddest yesterday in tastynge of delycate metes be now past / thē hast thou nowe no such pleasure in tastynge / or yf thy body shall haue after thys tyme an case and pleasure in the auoydynge of the payne whyche thou now [...]du ryst / yet hast thou no suche pleasure now / so all the beynge lyfe pleasure & ioy whyche any creature hath in thys lyfe / is but durynge one lytell mo­ment whyche is shorte / and lytell worthy to be called any perfyte beynge orlyfe / or any perfyte ioy / but the eterne existens of god whyche must ex­cell all other beynges / hath in yt selfe suche a nobylyte that yt comprehen deth all the hole plente of lyfe togyther / and knytteth tyme paste & tyme to come wyth the tyme present. And nothynge is to god past nor to come but all thynges be to hym present. For yf any thynge were to hym newly knowen / thā god had not all perfyte knowlege in hym at the beginning. And so than there shuld be in god some mutabylyte / and chaunge & aug mentacron of knowlege / and becawse he had eue [...] most perfyte beynge / and most perfyte knowlege / and his knowlege can not be separate from hys beynge / as I haue proued to the before / it must nedys folowe / y^t god knewe all thynge euer / & euery thynge was euer / is / & shalbe to hym pre­sent.

¶Thys is now one of the meruel [...]st conclusyōs y^t euer I herd / but syth I now ꝑceyue y^t nothyng is worthy to be called eterne but onely god / what shall I call those thynges / whych haue such an existence / in transytory momentes that neuer shall haue ende nor fynysh.

¶Certes yf I shulde gyue them a condygne name I must call them per­petuall / and the existence of god eternall / and sythe that god is present euery where / and all thynge is present vnto hym / and y^e vnderstandyng of god is hys very beynge / yt must nedys folowe that god vnderstādeth seeth and knoweth euery thynge in the worlde / euer present before hym / euery mānes thought / euery act that is past / and euery thyng that is pre sent / and euery thyng that is to come / and knoweth what euery creature hath done / doth and shall do / & what euery man doth or thynketh or shall thynke or do / so euery thyng that euer was / is / or shall be / is now to hym knowen / and is now present before him.

¶Now doutles that [Page] is one of the noblest conclusions that euer I hard syth I was borne / and therfore I thanke the wyth all my harte / and not onely for thys / but also for all thy other reasons whyche thou haste made to me here before / wher by thou hast so forcyd me that I must nedys by reason graunt / that there is a god whyche by hys hye prouydence ruleth and gouerneth all / and cō serueth and kepeth all / and regardeth and taketh hede to all the worlde / and to euery thynge ther in conteyned. But at the begynnynge of our cō munvcacyon thou she wedest me that thou coudest proue to me by reason a nother conclusyon & pryncyple / that is to say / that the soule of mā is im mortall and shall neuer dye.

¶That conclusyon I purpose and can proue to the wyth so good demonstratyue reasons / that I dout not but I shall therin ryght well satysfye thy mynde / but yet now becawse I haue a lytell besynes to do / I praye the spare me for a lytell season. And wythin the space of an houre or lytell more / I shall mete the here agayne & than we shall procede in our argument.

¶wyth ryght good wyll I am content / & I shall not fayle by goddys grace to be here agayn wythin thys houre / and than dylygently to attende vpon thy retorne / & therfore I pray the fayle not to kepe thy promyse.

¶I shall not fayle to kepe my promyse by the helpe of the great god. And therfore for a season now fare well.

¶And fare well a­gayn wyth all myne harte

¶That it is conuenyent and nedefull to proue the immor­talyte of mannes soule by reason. Caput. i.

¶Now by my troth well met for I thought as mych y^t I shuld be sure to fynde y^e here at my retorn

¶And I made y^e more hast because I wold be here before the. For I wold be lothe y^t thou shuldest proue in me any brech of couenaunt or [...].

¶Therein thou art y^e more to be cōmendyd / & therfore no we let vs go to our mater that we dyd promyse be­twene vs to dyspute / that is to say / to proue by naturall reason only that the soule of man is immortall and shall neuer dye.

¶I wot well thou dydest say to me / that thou coudest proue it by naturall reason: but I had leuer here tell of the other conclusyon that thou spakest of / that is to say / y^t there is a purgatory / where the soule of man shalbe punysshed after it it separate from the body / which is more cōuenyēt and more nede full to be prouyd / than to proue the immortalyte of mānes soule: for there is but few people but that they beleue that the soule of man is immortal.

¶And I thynke it is both conuenyent and nedefull / to ꝓue fyrst the immortalyte of mannes soule / for as touchyng the fyrst poynte / I can not so cōuenyētly proue to y^e by reason y^t there is a purgatory / nor so well to satysfye thy mynde therin / except I shuld fyrst proue to the by reason that the soule of man is immortall / for that y^t other the same groundys & pryncyples whych serue for the fyrst wyll conuenyētly serue for the other / or ellys they wyll be antecedentes necessary to proue the sayd consequēs. And as to the seconde poynte me thynketh it is now very nedefull / and for a cōmen vertuous welth to proue by reason that y^• soule of man shuld be immortall. For this I merk meruelously whych I se by a comen expe­ryens vsed in the worlde / and specyally in my contrey / y^t many whyche be called the great wyse men of the worlde / whyche haue depe and hye ler­nynge and also excellent wyt / do lyue abomynably and vycyously / some in pompe and pryde some so inordynate couetous that be neuer sacyate / some in rancor malyce and dysdeyn / and many of them do neuer cōuerte from those vyces / duryng theyr lyues / nother by exhortacyon / prechyng / techyng / nother by payne / punyshment / sekenes / nor other thyng / except it be for a very lytyll season onely whyle the payne endureth / I saye than yf suche wyse men and great clerkys so well studyed and lernyd / beleuyd perfytely and surely that theyr soules were immortall / & shuld haue payn or ioy in an other world / accordynge as they deserue here in yerth / I sup­pose verely they wold neuer contynew in theyr vycyous lyuynge as they do / wherfore it is a great cōiecturall argument vnto me that they beleue [Page] not theyr soules to be imortall. But that they labour and study to bryng other to beleue the immortalyte of mānes soule / because they wold haue them obedyent vnto them and therby to maynteyne theyr owne vyces & voluptuous appetites.

¶Nay god forbed it shuld be so / but I thynke rather it is the fraylte of theyr nature / and that they do but forget to do theyr duties to god for y^• tyme / but yet yf there be any suche men as thou spekest of / whych wyll neuer be conuerted by exhortacyō / prechyng / sekenes / nor other punyshment / me thynketh for thē there is no remedy.

¶yes forsoth this thyng whych I purpose now to shew the ꝑad uenture may be a remedy and helpe therin. For there is nothynge in the worlde shall alter and chaunge a mannes mynde and beleue so well and surely / as shall the iudgemēt of his owne reason / for when a man is set in the perfyte beleue of ony thyng / though the prayer and opiniō of other cā not turne his minde / yet whē a nother reason cometh to his m [...]nd which destroyeth that fyrst reason / which causyth hym to beleue his fyrst opyniō to be true / y^• same other reason so comē to his m [...]nde shal chaūge his fyrst beleue and opynyon. Therfore I say for suche men as beleue not the im­mortalyte of mannes soule / yt is necessary to persuade them by reasons and argumentes and such as they neuer herd before / or ellys though they haue before hard them / yet they dyd neuer in theyr myndes wyth delybe­racyon depely dyscusse them. And such reasons so moued vnto them shal cause them to alter and chaunge theyr beleues and opynyons. And wher they beleuyd before that the soule of man was mortall / they shall by y^• per suasyon of such reasons chaunge theyre opynyons / and beleue that it is immortall / and that it shall neuer dye.

¶what is a dyffynycyon / and what is a descrypcyon. Caput. ii.

¶By my trouthe thou sayst well vnto me & therfore I pray the now shew me some of those reasons / whych thou thynkest necessary to proue the immortalyte of mannes soule / for the contentacyō of my mynde therin.

¶with a ryght good wyll. But yet yf I shulde satysfye thy mynde in thys mater by way of argument and reaso­nynge / we had nede fyrste to agre betwene vs in y^• wordes and termes y^t we shall speke / so that I may meane the same thynge alway y^t thou doste meane / and that thou meane alway / the same thynge that I meane. For yf I speke a worde / and by that worde that I speke I do meane fyre / & by the same self worde thou dost meane water we shal neuer thā agre in our argumentes and reasons / nor by our argument neuer brynge forth / nor proue no true nor good cōclusyon. Therfore yf we shulde talke of y^• body and of the soule / & of man / it is fyrst necessary to agre betwene vs / what thyng we call a body / & what thynge we call a soule / and what thynge we call a mā.

¶Thou sayste well therin / therfore fyrste I pray the [Page] tell me thyn opynyō theri / & what thing thou callest a body / & what thing thou callest a soule / & what thing thou callest a mā.

¶I cal a body as all y^• phylosophres afore haue defyned yt.

¶what meanest thou by this worde defyned.

¶Mary dyffinyciō as the phylosophers say is a rule whyche sheweth and techyth vs the beynge of the thynge / & what the thing is / only by termes and wordes essencyall. But a descryp [...]on is a rule / whych she weth and techeth vs the beynge of the thynge and what the thynge is by wordesaccidentall / and wordes essenciall be those which sygnyfye such an essencyall thynge / whych can not be taken a way from y^• same self thyng / whych we wold haue diffynyd & y^t thyng styll to remayn. But accydentall thynge be those / whych may be takē a way from y^• thyng wych we wold haue descrybyd / & yet y^t thing may styll remayne / as whyte black / hard / soft / good / bad / & such other be termes accydentall for a horse or a man / for whytnes or blacknes / hardnes / or softnes / goodnes or bad­nes may be chaunged in a horse or man / & takē a way from those thynges & yet the same selfe horse or man may remayne styll in theyr substauncyall beynge / & therfore they be callyd accydentall thynges for a hors or a man but those termes a body and sensyble / be termes essencyall for a horse or a man / for they may not be taken awaye from the substaunce of a horse or a man / and the same selfe hors or man to remayne / and therfore they be cal lyd essencyall termes for a hors or a man.

¶what is a body / what is a soule / and what is a man. Caput. iii.

¶All y^t I ꝑceyue well & am agreed w^t y^• therin / therfore I pray the procede and tell me what thou callest a body / and what thynge thou callest a soule / and what thou callest a man.

¶I call that a body as I sayd before as the phylosophers haue dyffyned yt / that is thus: A body is that which hath length / brede / & thickenes. And a soule as y^• phylosophers say / is y^e acte of a naturall body hauynge lyfe in power And a man is a body with a soule sensytyf and reasonable. But yet me thynketh there is a better dyffynycyon / than that for the soule after myn opinyon.

what is that?

¶Surely after myne mynde a soule is no nother thynge but a lyfely power / and ought not alway to be called the acte of the naturall body hauynge lyfe / for I thynke that thou wylt graunt that the soule of man / when it is separate frō his corrupty­ble body is a soule / & yet it is not than the acte of the body / for thā it doth nothynge with the body / nor that body doth no acte / nor hathe no natu­rall doyng by reason of the soule / and therfore it semeth it is no good dyf fynycion of the soule to call it the acte of the bodye / but the best dyffyny­cyon of the soule is to call it the lyfely power.

¶yf that be thyn opynion / than thou goest clene from the dyffynicyon of the phylolophers and than I suppose that few clerkys therin wyll take thy parte.

¶Nay it is not clere agayne the phylosophers mynde / for peraduenture [Page] whan they gaue that dyffymcyon they ment that the soule beyng ioyned wyth the body / is y^• acte of the body.

¶ well than go forth with thy purpose.

¶ Then furthermore I say that of that soule there is thre dye [...]rsytees / that is to say / a soule vegetatyf / a soule sensytyf / and a soule int [...]llectyf. A soule vegetatyue is that lyfe that is in a plante / tre gras / herbe / or frute whych do grow. A soule sensytyue is that lyfe which is in a brute beste / whyche occupyeth and vseth the. v. wyttys and lacketh reason and vnderstandynge / as is a hors / a cow / a byrde or a fysh. And y^• v. w [...]ttys by the tastynge / the smellynge / the herynge / the syght and the touchynge. And therfore euery kynde of bestes hauynge these. v. wyttys haue a soule sensytyue. But a soule intellectyue is that whych hath a lyue l [...] vnderstandynge to knowe good from [...]ll / and ryght from wronge. And therfore a man is that creature to whom god hath gyuen this soule int [...]f / whyche we call the reasonable soule. And because man hathe growyng as plantes & herbes haue / he is therfore called lyfelv / & because he hathe the vse of the. v. sences as brute bestes haue / therfore he is callyd [...]nsyble. And because he hath reason and vnderstandynge / therfore he is call [...]d reasonable. Therfore a man is nothyng ellys but a lyfely body sen sybl [...] and reasonable / so those two thynges ioyned togyther that is to say the body and the reasonable soule do make a man.

¶ This is a very good introduccyon to our mater and a reasonable / therfore I am content to graunte to the all these forsayd conclusyons / therfore I praye the go forth wyth thy argument / & let me see how thou canst proue by rea son that the soule of man is immortall and shall neuer dye.

¶ That I trust I shall proue the / but yet fyrst or we go to the reasonyng [...]rof [...] I shall proue to the y^• it is wysdom for a mā to beleue that y^• soule of man is immortall / and shal neuer dye / and that it is great foly to b [...]ue the contrary that it is immortall.

¶How canst thou proue that.

¶ Forsothe thus.

¶ That it is wysdome to beleue that the soule of man is immortall. Caput. iiii.

A Man must nedys other beleue that the soule of man is immortal and shall neuer dye / or ellys mortall and shall perysh with the bo­dy / but it is more wysdome and profyte for a man to beleue that it shall neuer dye / then the cōtrary. For in euery doutfull thynge the more surer way is to be chosen. But yf thou beleue that it is immortall & shall neuer dye / though it be not so / yet that byleue by no possybylyte can neuer hurt the nor dysprofyte the / for yf it be immortall and shall haue punyshment after for his desert / that beleue maye do the great good / yf thou lyue the more vertuously. And yf it be mortall and shall dye / yet yf thou beleue y^• it is immortall / y^t beleue shall neuer after thy deth do the hurte / whyther thou lyue in this worlde vertuously or vycyously / when thou hast no lyfe [Page] nor beynge after thy soule is departyd from thy bodye. But on the other syde yf thou beleue that it is mortall and shall dye with thy body / that be leue ꝑaduēture may do y^• great hurt. For yf thy soule lyue after thy body and be punysshed in an other world for thyne offēces done in this world / yf the boldnes of that beleue haue caused y^• to lyue the more vycyously in this worlde / for whyche thou arte in an other world punysshed / then that beleue that thy soule is mortall is cause to the of great harme / therfore to beleue that y^• soule of man shall dye with the body one way may be cause to man afterward of great hurte. But of this beleue that the soule of mā shall neuer dye / shall neuer by no possibylite be hurtfull to mā afterward nor there can not folo we therof to man any harme / wherfore I may well conclude y^• a mā to beleue that his soule is incorruptyble and shall neuer dye / is great wysdome / and to beleue the contary is great folyshnes.

¶ That reason prouyth it more wysdome to beleue y^• immortalyte of the soule / but yet that reason prouyth not the soule to be immortall.

¶ yf the soule of man shulde not be immortall / than were man the most vnhappyest of all other crea tures and bestys. Caput. v.

¶ But yet yf thou wylt gyue me dilygent heryng / I trust I shall proue the by reason that the soule of man is immortall / and that it is infynite and shall neuer dye nor vtterly perysh / and that I shall proue y^• by dyuerse reasons.

¶ I praye the by what reasons.

¶ Dowtles by many good reasons / wherfore my fyrst rea­son is thys. There is no creature of god in yerth whyche dothe to god so myche honour nor prayseth god so myche as man dothe / nor also there is no creature in yerth that hathe any knowledge and reason to knowe / how to do honour to god saue only man / than syth that man is only that crea ture / whyche doth honour to god here in yerth / it is conuenyent and stan deth moste with equyte and ryghtfull iudgement and goodnes of god / that god shuld therfore rewarde man with a lyfe and a beynge more plea saunt and better / than any other creature or beste here in yerth. But the lyfe and beynge whyche man hath here in yerth / is more wreched sorow­full and worse / than the lyfe of any other brute beste here in yerthe / ergo it is conuenyent and necessarye that man haue an other lyfe after the cor­rupcyon of his body / and that must nedys be the lyfe and beynge of hys reasonable soule / because his body after his mortall deth hath by nature no maner of lyfe.

¶ why is the lyfe of man here in yerthe more wreched sorowfull and worse thā the lyfe of any other brute beste.

¶ That I shall she we the / for thou knowest well ynoughe & seest by expe­ryence that the body of man is more feble and tender / than the bodye of any other brute beste / for the bodye of man is all tender and naked and myche more tender than any other brute beste / for y^• fysshes haue of theyr [Page] nature shell [...] or skalys to couer and defend theyr bodyes / the best [...] be full of here and haue thycke skynnes / the foules haue fethers: but man is ten­der & naked / y^t yf he had not couering for him made of other beste skynne or here or other thynges / he shuld perysh for colde / for whych thyng to be gotten man must laboure and study / where the bestes fysh or foule nede not to labour for y^• obteynynge therof / because they haue all such thynge nedefull for thē gyuen them by nature / so that the lyfe of man is more ne defull & wreched / than the lyfe of any other brute beste. Also man taketh & must take great labour for the obteynynge of his necessary fode & lyuyng as to tyll the grounde wyth great labour to get hym drynk & fode. where the bestes take no such payne for drynke nor other fode / but fynde alway the water redy for theyr drynke / and all other thynge ordeyned by natu­re redy for theyr fode without any study or laboure therfore to be taken. So the lyfe of man is more laborous & paynfull / than y^• lyfe of any other brute beste. Also mā idureth mych vexacyō / thought / study & vnquietnes of mynde / whych the brute bestes indure not / for though y^t man knoweth surely that he shall dye & oft taketh thought therfore / yet the brute bestys haue no knowlege of theyr deth / nor take no thought therfore. And also man doth take thought & care for losse of ryches losse of honour or dygny te / & many a man taketh so great care for losse of such ryches & honoure / that duryng his lyfe therfore he can neuer be mery. And som man taketh so great thought and care therfore that oft tymes he dyeth for sorow / mē and women also desyre and couet gay and fresh apparell to couer theyre bodyes / goodly garnysshed and fayre houses / & all bewteous syghte plea saunt to the eye / as goodly pyctures and ymages / they desyre and delyte also in swete smellys & sauours / and to here songes and armony & swete sownes pleasaunt to the ere / and taketh great payne laboure and study / vexacyon and vnquyetnes of mynde for the obteynyng of such thynges. But yet the brut beste careth for no such thynges / but regardeth nothing but only for his fode / his bodely lust ease & pleasure. Therfore it proueth well y^t man indureth mych vexaciō thought study & vnquietnes of mynd whiche the brute bestes indure not. Therfore as I sayd before / yf y^• soule of man shuld not haue a nother lyfe and beynge after it is separate from the body / then were man in worse case than any other brute beste / whych were not consonaunt to the iustyce nor goodnes of god / that man whych of all creatures yerthly gyueth only honour and prayse to god / shulde be rewarded wyth a lyfe more wreched & wore than any other beste in yerth. And therfore god of his iustyce and goodnes must rewarde hym with a better lyfe / than that whyche any brute beste indureth / whych can not be excepte y^t his soule haue a lyfe and beynge / after it is separate from this corruptyble body. So of conuenyence it foloweth that the soule of man must nedys be immortall.

¶ That is a ryght proper reason whyche thou hast made / but hast any other reason than that?

[Page]¶ye forsoth that I haue / and therfore my seconde reason shall be this.

¶That the soule of man vseth his operacyon & properte without the body / and so may haue a beynge wythout the body. Caput. vi.

THe very operacyon & properte of the reasonable soule is to know and to vnderstande / then yf the grosse body of man be the cawse of the beynge of the soule / so that the soule take his perfeccion ano corrup cyon of the grosse body / then can the soule neuer vse hys operacyon & pro perte wythout the body. But yf the soule of man may vse hys operacyon and properte wythout occupyenge of that grosse bodye / than is not the body the cause of the perfeccyon and corrupcyon of the soule / but y^• soule maye vse his operacyon and properte wythout occupyenge of the grosse body / for the lesse that the bodye or the. v. wyttys is moued or styred / the better and the more perfytly doth the soule vse his operacyon & properte. For when a man moueth not wyth the body nor seeth nothynge nor he­reth no noyse / nor tasteth nor smelleth nothynge / that shulde trouble the body / than doth the soule of man vse hys operacyon and properte of vn­derstandynge most clerely and perfytly. And also yt hath ben oft tymes harde and knowen / that dyuers men in theyr dremys haue seen many vy syons / some in theyr dreme thynk them self / in theyr lyuyng bodyes to be in other placys talkynge wyth other folkes / and doynge dyuers thynges to theyr pleasure or dyspleasure: when in dede theyr bodyes be not there / but they lye in theyr beddes styll a slepe / and these thynges and vysyons / whych they se in theyr dremys is the operacyon of theyr soules / for theyr bodyes so lyenge a slepe do see nor do no suche thynge / and therfore syth the soule of man doth see and doth suche thynges wythout the body / it fo lo weth well that the soule of man hath a beyng wythout the body / and so may haue his beynge when it is seueryd and separate from the body.

¶Me thinketh that reason ꝓueth as well y^t the soule of a brute best may haue his beynge when it is separate from the body of that beste. For as I suppose a dog or a hog or any other brute best doth dreme as well as a mā doth / for a dog in his slepe wyll barke and open lyke as he doth whē he is wakynge / a hog and dyuers other bestys wyl crye and make noyse in theyr slepe lyke as they do beynge wakyng.

¶As to that I say in myn opinyon / that no brute beste in y^• world doth dreme but only man nor all the worlde can not proue the contrary. And I saye that though a dog or other beste doth crye and make noyse in his slepe / yet yt dremeth not nor seeth nothynge. For this we see oft by experyence y^t many a man in his slepe dothe speke and moue / and yet he dremeth not / nor seeth no thyng / nor when he is wakynge can nother tell nor remember that he dre med of any thynge / all the whyle that he so spake in his slepe / nor saw no thynge that whyle: & so that somtyme a man speketh and maketh noyse [Page] in his slepe / and seeth no thynge nor dremeth not / and yet somtyme he speth and maketh mouynge or noyse in his slepe / and dothe dreme & see vysyons / but that spekynge and mouyng whych a man hath in his slepe / whyle he seeth nothynge nor his mynde occupyed / cometh only of the na turall dysposycyon and complexyon of the body / and it is only the opera cyon of the body / and not the operacyō of the soule / because y^t the mynde is no thynge occupyed that whyle / nor [...]yueth nor seeth no thynge that whyle. For profe wherof yf ye wyll sodeynly pryck a man beynge a slepe / he wyll moue and styr / and [...]aduiture make crye or make noyse or sowne and yet dremeth not that whyle of no suche hurte done to his bodye / nor his soule saw no thyng that while / and yf he be sodeynly wakyd therwith he cā nother tell nor shew of no maner dreme nor vysyon in his slepe that he had that whyle. whych operacion of the naturall dysposycyon and com plexyon of the body euery brute beest may haue in his slepe / & that natu­rall dysposycion of the body / doth cause y^t beste to crye & moue in his slepe as when it feleth payne it wyll crye in token of that payne as it doth whē it is wakynge / and when it felyth ease and pleasure / it wyll make noyse or sowne / or make some mouynge / betokenynge the same ease and plea­sure as yt doth when it is wakynge. But yet there is no brute beste in the world whych is able to make any noyse crye / or sowne in his slepe other wyse, y^t it is able to do when it is wakynge / but when it is wakynge / it is not able to do any thing / touchyng only the operacyon and properte of y^• reasonable soule / for yt can not reken nor count no nombers nor dyscusse what is ryght and wronge / good nor bad / nor make no argumentes nor reasons / whyche operacyon & propertees of the reasonable soule no brute beste can haue nor vse in his slepe / because he can not haue them nor vse them when he is wakyng / but a man hath those propertees of the soule / as well wakynge as slepynge. For wakynge he can reken and counte nō bers and reason and dyscusse what is ryght and wronge / good and bad / and inuente and fynde many sutell reasons and argumentes / whiche the brute beste can not do / a man can also vse the same lyenge a slepe in hys dremys / for many man also beyng a slepe in his dreme / doth fynd dyuers reasons & argumentes ꝓuynge some conclusyon of some scyens and fa­culte / whych reason cam neuer to hys mynd before whyle he was wakig / also many a man in his dreme hath had dyuers vysyons / & hath forseen & had knowlege of thynges to come / whyche hath afterwarde fallen playn ly and truely accordyng to his vysyon / some of promocyon & wynnyng / and somtyme of losse and bodely hurte / whyche after hath fallen to hym and many a man in his dreme hath seen and knowē his owne destrucciō and dethe. Thus the soule of man hath his knowlege / and vseth his pro­perte of vnderstandynge not occupyenge the body & wythout any helpe of the bodye / or of any of hys. v. senses / or of any organe of the sences / or of any member of the bodye. And yet forthermore many a man we ses [Page] by experyence beynge seke feble and weke / and the soule nygh the poynte of departynge from the body / a lytell before the houre of his deth hath for seen and fortolde his owne deth / and also the deth of other folkes and dy uers other thynges / whyche afterwarde haue truely come to passe. And also brode wakyng hath seen many sightes & vysions of dyuers straunge thynges of spyryt or deuyls & of dyuers persons / whyche haue ben dede before / and shewed them that were than present / that those vysyons dyd gyue hym perfyte knowlege that he must nedys dye. whych straunge visy ons other persons beyng there present wyth hym coud in no wyse see nor perceyue / wherfore yf the soule of man shuld dye and corrupt with the bo dy / it semeth agayns reason that it shulde be so perfyte in his beynge to vse his operacyō and properte of knowlege & vnderstandyng so quyckly truely & perfytly so nygh the tyme of his corrupcyon / but rather when yt begynneth to dye and corrupte / yt shuld begynne to wax weke & feble in vsynge his operacyon and properte. wherfore vpon these [...]inissys I ma [...] well conclude / that syth the soule of man vsyth his operacyon & properte moste perfytly without occupyenge of the body or helpe of the body / that the most parfyte beynge of the soule is without the body / so the body can not be the cause of the corrupcyon of the soule of man / but that the soule may be wythout the body / nor that the soule dyeth not whē the body dy­eth / nor when it is separate from the body / but lyueth and hath his beyng after and is immortall and incorruptyble.

¶ That reason is ryght good and apparaunt.

¶ Nay I praye the take pacyence for a whyle and here me dylygently / for I haue dyuers other reasons to proue the [...]ortalyte of mannes soule.

¶ I praye the go to / I shall be glad to gyue the herynge.

¶ That god doth wyll the perpetuall lyfe welth and pre­seruacyon of mannes soule / and that his wyll must be perfourmed. Cap. vii.

¶ Another reason I shall shew the which is thys / because the chyldren be somwhat lyke vnto the father / and also because y^• fa ther knoweth that they be of his nature / therfore the father must & dothe naturally loue his children / and euer wylleth the welth and prosperyte of hys chyldren styll to contynew. So lyke wyse because y^• man is lyke vnto god for y^t y^t god hath made hym to his symylytude / because he hath know lege & vnderstandyng somwhat resemblynge to god / whyche most hyghe knowlege and vnderstandynge is euer in god / as I haue proued y^• here before in our fyrste dyaloge and dysputacyon. And also because the soule of man is of the nature of god / and procedeth and cometh only of god / it must than consequētly folowe that god doth loue the soule of man / and doth greatly wyll the perpetuall welth and preseruacyon of the soule of [Page] man st [...]ll to contynew. And yf god do wyll the perpetuall welth and pre­seruacyō of that soule / that great wyll of god must [...] take effecte / for [...]f god shulde haue euer a great w [...]ll to a thynge / and that thynge shulde neuer take [...] / than god shuld neuer haue hys wyll fulfylled / and thā thā that shulde be a great dyspleasure to god / and so than god shulde haue a dysple [...] lyfe and beynge / and no [...]oyfull lyfe nor beynge / whyche is cōtrary to that which I prouyd to the before in our fyrst dyaloge & dyspu tacyon that god must nedys haue the moste ioyfull lyfe and beynge that can be and therfore syth that the great wyll of god is to haue the soule of m [...]n in perpetuall welth and preseruacyon / [...]t must nedys folow that the [...] of man must haue a perpetuall lyfe / and must neoys be unmortall.

¶ T [...]at reason me thynketh proueth not thy purpose / for yf [...]od haue a wyl that mannes soule shuld be perpetually preseruyd / & that of [...] to that wyll of god must nedys take effecte / or elles god shulde haue no [...]full lyfe nor beynge / therof shuld folowe / that god shuld suf­fer no [...] soule to be dampned.

¶ Nay that ob [...]eccyon maye be well assoyl [...]d by the symylytude that I dyd shew the before of y^• father and chyldren. For though a father hauynge many chyldren / haue a natu rall wyll to the welth and perpetuall preseruacyon of all his chyldren / yet yf any one of hys chyldren do dysplease hym / and haue [...]yll concyc [...]ons or doth hurte or intend the dyspleasure and destrucciō of his father / that father than wyll for suche vnkyndnes punysh hym / tyll he can reconcyle hym agayne to goodnes / but yf he wyll not be reconcyled / he wyll than vtterly caste hym to perpetuall payne or prysonment / and that is for the great loue & [...] / that suche a father hath do to iustyce. So lyke wyse god wh [...]che o [...] his infynyte goodnes and mercy / hath a wyll to the welth and perpetuall preseruacion of mannis soule / and also a good wyll euer to do iusty [...] hath ordeyned mannes soule to haue perpetuall ioy / & also hathe ordeyned punyshment for euery soule / that dothe offende accordynge to his desert. So that the wyll of god doth euer take effect accordyng to his mercy and iustyce / somtyme to rewarde by his goodnes and mercy / and somtyme to punysh by his iustyce. And also because god is louyng to mā and is mercyfull and iuste / god can not mynyster his iustyce suffycyent vnto mā except that his soule shuld be immortall / and haue a nother lyfe after it is separate from the body.

¶ yet me thynketh thou hast not suff [...]ntly prouyd that conclusyon / that god can not mynyster his iustyce vnto man / excepte his soule shulde be immortall.

¶ yes that I truste I shall proue the incōtynent by a good apparant rea son / yf thou wylt here it.

¶ yes mary with all myn hert / ther fore I pray the say on.

¶ yf the soule of man shuld not be immortall / than god doth not mynyster to euery man equall iustyce. Caput. viii.

¶ Euery reasonable mā wyll graunte / that god whych is the fyrst cause of euery thyng / & the foūteyne of all goodnes / that he muste ener be ryghteous and tuste / as I haue proued to the in our fyrste dyaloge / and by his iustyce he muste rewarde and punysh euery man ac­cordyng to his desert. But we se that there be dyuers men / and haue ben dyuers men in the world / which haue done dyuers and many good ded [...] with good mynde / & taken great payne and labour for the loue of god / & also suffered pacyently many wrongys / hurtes / and rebukes for the loue of god / and neuer had rewarde therfore in this worlde. And sone after such payne and labour takē / and such good dedes done by them / or such wronges suffered for goddes sake they haue dyed / and neuer rewarde in this world therfore. So on y^• other syde dyuers men offende god in this worlde and do many euyll dedes / & neuer punysshed suffycyently in this worlde therfore. Therfore it is necessary that man haue a lyuyng and a beynge after this bodely dethe / that god maye rewarde hym and punysh hym by his iustyce / for those good dedes and euell dedes / that he dyd in this worlde / for the which he was not fuffycyently rewarded no [...] punysh whyle he was here. For elles god doth not minister to hym equal iustyce. And also a mā to honour god in this world / it were a thyng but in vayn / yf y^t he shuld dye without any rewarde whyle he were lyuynge here / nor neuer haue therfore rewarde after his dethe in no place elles where. And also it shuld conforte a man to lyue vycyously / and to satysfye his owne voluptuous appetytes / and to the satysfyenge alway of his inordynate desyre and pleasure and froward mynde and wyll / and to do vycyous & Abo [...]ynable dedys / to the destruccyon and hurte of his neyghbours / yf he shulde truste to auoyde all punyshment therfore to be had in this life / nor neuer thynke to haue punyshment therfore / nor make any satysfaciō after his deth in no other place elles where / therfore I saye by the conue ment iustice of god / it is necessary that man must haue an other lyfe and beynge after his soule is separate from his bodye where he maye receyue dew rewarde or punishment for such actes / for the which he was not suffi ciently rewarded nor punysched / whyle he was here liuing in erth / which lyfe and beyng must nedys be the lyfe of his immortall soule.

¶ The soule of man is made to be parte taker of blys­fulnes and ioye that euer shall endure. Caput. ix.

¶ Another reason to ꝓue y^• immortalite of mānes soule is this. The soule of man which is made to the syimlitude & likenes of god / because of the vnderstandinge / is made to perceyue and to haue [Page] and to be parttaker of blysfulnes & ioy / for yf the reasonable soule / which is formed to the lykenes of god / shuld not be made to attayne blesfulnes and ioy / then no creature is made to attayne and come to the blesfulnes and ioy / thē yf it be made to attayne blesfulnes and ioy / eyther than that blesfulnes and ioy is for euer to indure / or ell [...] to endure for a season / but so to endure ioy for a season and to haue an ende therof / is no blesfulnes but heuynes / for then shulde the soule euer be sadde & heuy / to thynke it shulde departe from that ioy / that it endureth for that season / for lyke as we be sadde of that sorowe that cometh to vs agaynst our wyll / so be we sadde for that ioy that goth from vs agaynst our wyll / then yf the sowle shulde be sure to departe from that ioy that it hathe / it shulde haue cause to morne & to be sad / therfore it semeth than that the soule is not made to [...] that ioy and blesfulnes that endureth but for a season / which is no ioy but wrechednes. But it is made to perceyue that very ioy that en­dureth euer. Therfore it may be cōcluded that the soule of man is made to endure for euer and so must nedys be immortall.

¶ That the soule of man knoweth and perceyu [...]th many thynges without the body / nor it dependeth not nor corrupteth not wyth the body. Cap. x.

¶ Another reason is this: we perceyue that to the bodye belongeth. v. wyttes / that is to say / the herynge / seynge / felyng / ta­st [...]ng / and smellynge / and the organs and instrumentes of the. v. wyttes b [...]n the [...]res for herynge / the eyes for seynge / the nose for smellynge / the mouth with the tonge for tastynge / & the other members for touchynge / but our soule we se perceyueth knoweth and vnderstādeth many thynge that be not perceyued knowen nor vnderstande by the bodye / nor by no parte of the body / nor by none of the. v. wyttes. For the soule wythout oc cupyeng any of the. v. wyttes conceyueth thynges that haue no bodyes / for it knoweth the goodnes of god / it knoweth right aud wronge / truthe and falshede / the soule can rekē and tell nombers / it knoweth ꝓporcyōs / it perceyueth thynges paste and thynges to come / all though they be in­sensyble by meanes of the bodye / or by the. v. wyttes / & all those thynges y^t haue no bodyes / can not be seen / hard / nor smellyd / tasted / nor touched by none of the. v. wyttes / nor by no instrumente nor organe of them / yet can the soule perceyue all suche incorporall and insensyble thynges of hys owne kynde and by hym selfe / and therfore it appereth that y^• soule hathe his operacyon besyde the body / and that the nature of the soule of man is not of necessyte dependenge to the body / nor to the. v. wyttes / nor to no parte of them / nor corrupteth not / when the body and the. v. wyttes bene corrupt / but hath his beynge without the body / and so is immortall.

¶ That the naturall appetyte of the soule of man is to come to the knowlege of the hye cause / whych is god. Caput. xi.

¶ A nother reason yet I shall shewe the / whyche is this. The soule of man knoweth it selfe / yt knoweth euery thynge / the beyng of euery thing / & the cause of the beyng of euery thyng / it knoweth thynges fynyte and thynges infynyte & the causes therof / and so further and further / hyer and hyer / and cause by cause / & neuer cesyth tyll it hath atteyned the knowlege of the fyrst cause of all thynge / whych is god that is infynyte / and the nere yt doth atteyne the knowlege of that fyrst cause the more vehemently it desyreth to know that fyrst cause tha [...] is infynyte Therfore it appereth that the soule of man hath euer a naturall appetyte & properte to come to the perfyte knowlege & syght of the infinyte dyuy­nely substaūce & fyrst cause / and that god hath gyuē that naturall ꝓperte to the soule to come to that perfyte knowlege and syght. Then yf that be the naturall properte gyuen of god / ergo the soule must onys nedys vse his properte / that is to say to haue the parfyte knowlege and syght of y^t infynyte dyuynely substaūce y^t is god. But syth the soule of man can not vse his properte / as to haue that true parfyte knowlege and syght therof here in this darke lyfe / but darkly as vnder a cloude or a myste / therfore it is necessary that the soule of man haue a beynge / in the whyche he may haue the trewe and parfyte syghte and knowlege of that dyuynely sub­staunce and fyrst cause whyche is god. But that parfyte syght and know lege can the soule neuer haue / whyle it is beynge ioyned wyth the grosse body / ergo yt foloweth / it must haue a knowlege and syght without the grosse body / and so yt must nedys haue a beynge wythout that grosse bo dy / and so it foloweth that after the corrupciō of that grosse body / it hath a beynge and is incorruptyble and immortall.

¶ That the soule of man hath none other cause of his beynge but god / whyche is infy­nyte. Caput. xii.

¶ A nother reason yet is this. Euery thyng that is made of nought and immedyatly create of god is infinite and shall neuer haue ende / for the heuen / yerth / hell and the hole ingynne of the worlde / were immedyatly made of god and haue no nother cause of theyr beyng but only god whych is infynyte. And because that cause is infymte theyr beyng [...] be naturally infynyte / but that thynge that hath a nother meane cause of hys beynge than god / is cortuptyble / as the body of man & beste / or a house and suche other / whyche haue a nother meane cause of theyre growyng and beyng / whych is the moysture of the yerth / & the hete of the sonne / and forme & the fassyon. Also the. v. wyttys as the syght / the smel­lynge / [Page] the tastynge / herynge / and touchynge haue a nother meane cause of theyr beynge / whyche is the eye for the syght / and the nose for the smel­lynge / the tonge and mouth for tastyng / the eres for herynge / the handes and other mēbers of the body for touchyng / whych. v. wyttys haue theyr cause & beynge of those members / then yf the vnderstandynge / the whych is the soule of man / haue none other meane cause of his beyng but god y^t is infynyte / [...] is immedyatly create of god / the soule conuenyently must be infynyte. But that the soule hath no nother incane cause of beyng but god / and that it is a thynge whyche is immedyately create of god / thus it may be wel proued. The soule must nedys be made of somwhat / or [...]lle of nought / [...]t there can be nothynge named of the whych it is made / for yf it be made of any other meane thyng or thynges / then must it be made of partes of yt selfe / whych so gadered togeder maketh the hole soule / or [...] it is made of some mater wyth som forme and fassyon added therto: but it is not made of his partes gederyd / for the soule hath no partes nor can not be deyuded. Nor it is not made of no nother mater / for euery thynge that is made of any mater and be resoluyd vnto the same mater wherof it was fyrst made / when the forme or fassyon is brokē and destroyed / as an ymage / a house / a cup of tymber or metall / and such other / whych may be resoluyd vnto the same mater / as vnto y^• same tym­ber or metall / when the fassyō and forme therof is broken and destroyed / and therfore syth the soule of man can not be resoluyd to no such mater / wherof it is made / because it is but only a symple substaunce of it selfe / er go it is made of no mater then yf yt be nother made of partes of it selfe / nother of no mater / yt hath no meane cause of his creacyon and beynge / then must it ned [...]s be i [...]edyatly made of god / ergo god is only y^• cause of his creacyon & beynge / & where it hath no nother cause of his beynge: but that that it is infynyte / y^• immedyatly effecte must nedys be infynyte So consequently yt foloweth that the soule of man must nedys be infy­nyte incorruptyble and immortall.

¶ That the materyall substaūce of no thynge in the worlde can be corruptyd / no more can mannys soule Caput. xiii.

THere is nothynge in the world that is made of any mater & forme that clerely corruptyth and cometh to nought / for though y^• forme and ta [...]yon be corrupt and gone / yet the mater euer remayneth / for eue­ry corporall thynge in the worlde is cōpound of y^•. iiii. elemētes / & euer it is resoluyd agayn vnto y^•. iiii. elementes / of the which it is cōpound / that is to saye eyther in to the fyre / ayre water / or yerth. So that those. iiii. ele mentes nor no parte of thē can neuer be corruptyd / because they were in­medyatly made and create of god / for there is as mych fyre / eyre / water & yerth at this daye / as euer was any tyme before this / and neyther more nor lesse. And euery thynge that is cōpounde and made of these. iiii. ele­mentes [Page] thoughe the forme and fassyon maye be corrupte / yet the matter euer remayneth. For take any corporall thynge that is in the worlde / be a stok / a stone / a plante or tre / or the body of any best / and breke it or bren it / and do what ye can to destroy it / yet ye shall neuer destroy the matter therof to cause it vtterly to come to nought. For the yerth whych is in it / wyll turne to yerth or asshes / y^• water & moysture therin wyll go to the ele ment of the water / so that it wyll downe to the holow places of the yerth / and so at the last in to the see / or ellys it wyll be vapoured vp by the hete of the sonne or sterrys / and so at the laste turne to reyne. The eyre and wynde whych is therin / wyll to the eyre whyche is in his proper element. The fyre therin wyll ascende to the proper place and spere of the element of the fyre. So that euery one of the elementes wyll go to his owne place and proper spere / so that the materyall substaūce of euery corporal thyng doth neuer perysh and come to nought but doth euer remayne Thē syth that god suffered no corporall thynge naturally to corrupte and to come to nought / it is lykely that he wyll not suffer the soule of man / whyche is so noble a thyng and immedyatly made and create of god / as I haue pro ued to the before / and also made to his symylytude and lykenes / vtterly to corrupt and come to nought. So it must folowe that the soule of man must be immortall / and can neuer perysh and come to nought / but must euer contynew in his beynge.

¶ That mannes soule that is the moste perfyte and moste noble thynge that euer god dyd ordeyne & create must haue most longe tyme to cōtynew / & remayne in his beyng. Cap. xiiii.

¶ Another reason is this. Euery thyng the more perfyte and the more noble that it is / the longer it is able to cōtynew in his beyng. But the soule of man is the most perfyte creature and most noble c [...]ature that euer god dyd ordeyne or create / because it is made to the sy mylytude and lykenes of god / as I haue proued to the in our fyrst dya­loge and dysputacion. Therfore it is most able to cōtynew in his beyng / but we se dyuers creatures of god / which be perfyte thynges and able to contynew by nature / and to haue beyng infynyte / as the elementes that is to say / the fyre / the eyre / the water / the erth / as I prouyd to the here be­fore / & also the bodyes aboue as the sonne mone & sterrys by theyr proper tees haue a beyng / y^t naturally they shall neuer be vtterly corrupte nor pe rysshed / because there is no cause of theyr corrupcyon / ergo the soule of man / whych is the most perfyte & most noble thynge that euer god made and ordeyned / muste haue such a beynge / that shall be able to contynewe and to haue a beynge infynyte. Therfore it must folowe that the soule of man is immortall / and shall euer cōtynue and remayne in his beynge.

¶ That the soule of man hath his full perfeccyon as sone as it is annexed to the body / and that it increasyth not successyuely. Caput. xv.

¶ Thy reasons so depely enter in to my hert / y^t I can not auoyde it / but I muste nedys graunt the soule of man to be unmortall / & to haue a beynge / after the corrupcyon of the body. But yet one thynge moueth me greatly whether y^• soule of man haue his beynge & full perfeccyon as sone as it is annexed to the body / or yf it in­crease his perfeccyō successyuely.

¶ As to that it must nedys be af f [...]med y^• the soule hath his full perfeccyon and beynge / as sone as euer it is annexed to y^• body.

¶ That semeth to me a straunge thyng / for this I suppose must be graūted y^t the soule intellectyf is nothyng elle but the [...] vnderstandynge / whyche beynge in the body of man is annexed to the sensytyue lyfe / but we well perceyue that y^• bodye of a chylde in the wōbe of the mother hath quycknes of lyfe / & yet lacketh vnderstandynge longe tyme bothe before the byrth and after / & longe tyme after y^• byrth so cōtynueth / nor hath no more ꝓ [...]yuvng nor vnderstandyng then a brute beste / but after by processe of tyme / by techynge and instruccyon y^• vnder­standing increasyth / wherfore it se [...]eth to me / that his soule hath not his perfyte beyng and perfeccion at the beg [...]nnyng / but rather groweth and [...]syth as the body doth.

¶ That doute that thou mouest may well be asso [...]d / but because thou shall better perceyue my solucyon / I shall put the this symilitude / lyke wyse as a harper vseth his harpe which is his instrument to make melodye / so dothe the reasonable soule vse the body for his instrumente / and lyke wyse as the harper can not make nor she we no melodye wyth his harpe / excepte yt be strynged and in tewne / no more can the reasonable soule vse nor haue his operacyon in the body nor shewe no reason wyth the body whiche is y^• instrument / because yt is not perfytyde nor tewnyd. And lyke wyse as the harper hath his cōnyng and properte of harpynge / all though he lack his harpe and though his in strument / his harpe be not parfytyd and tewnyd / and though he can not shewe his connyng and properte wyth his instrument that is vnperfyte / so lyke wyse the soule in the body of the yonge chylde hath his properte of vnderstandynge though yt can not be shewed wyth that vnparfyte body whyche is his instrument.

¶ The dyfferens betwene the memory and phantasye of a brute beste and the soule of man / and that all [...] is in mannys soule at the be­gynnynge. Caput. xvi.

¶ yet there is one thynge wherin I am not fully satys­fyed / yf so be the soule of man haue his perfecciō of vnderstandyng [Page] in the begynnyng beynge in the body of such an infante / then when that the infant cometh to parfyte age of dyscrecyon / y^t reasonable soule beyng in hym shuld haue remembraūce & memory of suche thynges / that he d [...]d in his infancy and chyldhode / but of that we se the cōtrary by experyence therfore it shuld seme that the soule hath no parfyte perfeccyon of vnder­standynge in the begynnynge.

¶ As touchynge that questyon thou must fyrst consyder that the memory and phantasye is not euer the same thynge that the reasonable vnderstandynge is. For memory is the power of the soule / by the whyche one doth remember thynges paste and done / and the phantasye is the operacyon of the knowlege / whiche is had by reason of the. v. sensys or wyttes / and the brute bestes haue this phan­tasye and memory / which is presentyd to them by the. v. wyttes / yet haue they no reasonable vnderstāding.

¶ Al y^t I graunt.

¶ Thā thus I wote well thou wylt graunt / y^t a man beyng of the age of. xxx. ye­res hathe than his perfyte reasonable soule / and yet that man may be so ouercome by sykenes or by dronknes that he shall lose his memorye / ney­ther can not vse his vnderstandynge reasonable / as he can do whan hys body is in tēper. And yet thou wylt graūt / that as long as his sensytyue lyfe abydeth in the body / his reasonable soule is not departyd away / and when that man cometh agayne to helth or to sobernes / he can not remember of that y^t he dyd in his seknes or dronkenes. Therfore all though that his perfyte remembraunce and memory was gone for a season / yet the resonable soule was not then departed and gone / and the cause is that the soule that t [...]me had not a body dysposed and his perfyte instrumente / in the whyche he myght shewe his properte and vse his op [...]racyon of vnderstandyng / for in such dronknes a man vseth but the operacyō of his phantasye / and not his vnderstandynge that is the properte of his soule / ther­fore it standeth not agayns reason that the soule of man hath his perfyt­nes and knowlege of scyens and connynge as well in the begynnyng as afterwarde.

¶ That conclusyon me thynketh not good / y^t the soule of man hath as perfyte scyens and knowlege of all thynge in the be gynnyng as a [...]ter / for this we se by experyēce that many a man incresyth his vnderstandyng by redyng / studyeng / and techynge of other.

¶ But yet take hede to this poynte that y^t thou supposyst that y^• soule in­cresyth in vnderstandynge and lerneth scyens and connynge by redyng and techynge / is no thynge [...]llys but the repetycyon and remembraunce of such scyens and connynge that the soule had before / whiche the memory hadde forgotten and coude not reherse / for this I wote that thou and euery other reasonable man can imagyne and make many great reasons and fyndeth many subtyll inuencyōs of reasons / whych were to them neuer taught / and whyche they neuer lerned by redyng nor instruccyon of other men / but of theyr owne myndes & imagynacyons / therfore because men haue other vnderstandynge / scyens / knowlege / that they haue not [Page] by lernynge and techynge of other men. Therfore now it must nedes fo­low that y^t scyence and knowlege was in the soule of man longe tyme be­fore. But yet it is not so of a brute beste that hath but a memory and phā tasye / for the beste can remember nothynge nor knoweth nothynge / but that that is presentyd and shewed to hym by reasons of y^•. v. wyttes nor no nother thyng can know but sensyble thynge and corporal / but y^• soule of man contrary wyse remembreth and knoweth as well thynges insen­syble and incorporall as corporall / as I haue proued to the lately here be­fore. Therfore betwene the vnderstandynge of man / and the memorye & phantasy of a brute beste is a great dyfference / & be of a contrary nature.

¶ That the phantasye and memorye of a brute beste is corruptyble and mortall / and the soule of man unmortall. Caput. xvii.

¶ All that now I perceyue / but al though that there be some dyfference betwene the memory & phantasye of a brute beste and the vnderstandynge and soule of man / yet because the memory and phantasye of a brute beste is a thynge insensyble and incorporall as well as the soule of man is / therfore it semeth it shuld be incorruptible as well as y^• other.

¶ yf y^• memory or phantasy of a brute beste be a thyng insensyble & incorporall / that proueth it not to be incorruptyble / for the syght and heryng of a brute beste be incorporall thynges / yet they be not incorruptybie / & the cause is for those incorporall thynge / depende and ha ue theyr beynge vpon thynges corporall. For yf the eye which is the cause of the syght and the organ of the syght be perysshed & corrupte / the syght is perysshed and corrupte / and yet is the syght a thynge incorporall. And so of all the other. v. wyttes / & of the instrumentes & organs of them. So lyke wyse though the phantasye of a brute beste be incorporall yet it depē deth and belongeth to the. v. wyttes / and to the organs and instrumen­tes of the. v. wyttes / whyche be thynges corruptyble and corporall / & also the phantasy of a brute beste neuer worketh but in and vpō such thynge as be sensyble and corporal / and which may be perceyued by the. v. wytte nor no nother thynges can pceyue nor know / nor the phantasy of a brute best is neuer moued nor styred but by suche sensyble thynges / and corpo rall thynges whych be corruptyble & mortall / wherfore syth it dependeth and belongeth and hath his beynge and operacyon vppon such corrupty ble and mortall causes / it foloweth well that it must nedes be corruptible and mortall. Also the memory or phantasy of a brute beste iudgeth euery thynge y^t it seeeh hereth or perceyueth by any of the. v. sensys all for y^• bo­dy and for the fedyng / pleasure / or ease of the body / and to the satisfacciō of the bodely desyre or appetyte. And the brute beste neuer moueth nor styreth / nor laboureth voluntarely / but onely for the vse of the bodye / as for hys fedynge and conseruacyon of the bodye. Also the brute beste [Page] hath no naturall inclynacyō nor desyre to any thynge but that that is for the conseruacyon of his body. Therfore syth the brute beste iudged all for the bodye / naturally coueteth nor desyreth nothynge but for the body / yt foloweth well that the pryncypall perfeccyon & exystens of the brute beste is only the bodely lyfe / whyche bodely lyfe is mortall and corruptyble / so the wyttes or senses and the organs of thē / & the phantasye and memory whych is causyd by thē and so belongeth to the brute beste must ned [...]s be corruptyble and mortall / nor it can not be proued that any brute beste na turally and voluntarely dothe nor hath intended the destruccyon of hys owne body / but cōtrary many a man hath wyllyngly desyred the destruc­cyon of his owne body & voluntarely suffred deth / & so naturally iudgeth loueth coueteth and desyreth the conseruacyon of an other thynge than the bodely lyfe / so it appereth to be in mā a nother lyfe without the body and his pryncypall perfeccyon not to be the bodely lyfe / for he iudgeth & knoweth insensyble thynges / and thynges that be incorruptyble and in­fynyte / otherwyse than the phanthasye and memore of a brute beste iud­geth or knoweth.

¶ That the soule of man vseth not alway his opera­cyon and properte. Caput. xviii.

¶ yet me thynketh by reason the soule of man whych is the vnderstandyng shuld be corruptible / bycause it semeth though it depende not vpon the hole body / yet it dependeth vpon che brayne of y^• hed [...] / whiche is the pryncypall parte of the body / for when a man is hurte in the brayne anone his reason and vnderstandynge begynneth to faynt and go away / than anone that man leseth his vnderstandynge / therfore it semeth that fall the brayne be clerely perysshed and corrupte / that all y^• vnderstādyng / which is y^• soule / is clerely perysshed & corrupte.

¶ That is playnly vntrue and must nedes be denyed / that the vnderstan dynge dependeth vpon the brayne / for though the brayne be hurte / yet is not the vnderstandynge perysshed / but for that season the soule is occu­pyed about the cur [...]nge and helyng of that member / for as longe as the soule is ioyned wyth the body it is necessary that it haue some occupacyō wyth the body / and when any member of the body is is vehemently and hougly styred / moued / or sore smerteth / or aketh for hurt or payne or ache anone the soule because it is ioyned with y^• body / it helpeth to cōserue the body & it is tornyd frō the cōtemplaciō of dyuynely thynges / and is occu pyed in suche lowe thynges longyng to the body / & putteth his strengthe all in consyderynge the vehement payne / so that when the brayne is hurt so that y^• humours and vapours styre and moue the specys and kyndes of the phantasye / than all the strength of the vnderstandynge of the soule intendeth to the phantasye / and to the curynge of those members / & for the whyle renneth and is occupyed with the phantasye / and so at suche [Page] tyme the soule leseth not his perfeccyon / but because his body with which it is ioyned / is not perfyte in his members / therfore than it vseth not his operacyons in contemplacyon of dyuynely thynges / but vseth other ope racyōs longynge to y^• body & to the phantasy. As a harper whan his har pe is out of tune must be occupyed about y^e wrastynge of his harpe stryn­ges / and so set them in tune before he shalbe able to shewe any melody or armony wyth his harpe / and so durynge the tyme that he is tunynge hys harpe / he can shewe no melodye nor armonye. And so the soule of man whyle it is occupyed in curynge & tunyng his body / can not shew his ope racyon and properte of his clere vnderstandynge. Therfore it appereth that the vnderstandyng dependeth not vppon the brayne / for than euery brute beste whych hath the hede and the brayne hole and parfyte / and not hurte nor troublyd wyth superfluous humours / shulde haue vnderstan­dynge / whych is clerely false.

¶That euery mannes soule is of lyke perfeccyon. Laput. xix.

¶Thā syth thou affyrmest y^t y^e soule neuer lesyth his noble­nes nor [...] / I wold agayne know whether euery mānes soule be lyke perfyte

¶I suppose ye.

¶Me thynketh therof y^• cōtrary / for we se [...]uydētly that euery man hath not lyke vnderstandyng nor wytte. For many a man can perceyue and lerne that reason & scyens / that a nother can not thoughe it be neuer so playnly and well declared.

¶As I sayd to the before the cause therof is nought elles but the vndysposycyon of his body / because of the humours in his hede or in hys body / whyche perturbeth it / for whan the hede and the body is full of hu­mours by excessyue etyng or drynkyng / thā y^t mā vseth not his vnderstā dyng so perfyte as he doth when the body is clere of such superfluous hu mours / for when a man is fastyng / thā he vseth his vnderstandyng more perfyte / than whan his body is so replete with superfluous humours and the mete or y^• drynke vndygested. Therfore because some men be of such complexyon / and be neuer wythout such humours / & theyr heedes neuer clene but full of superfluous humours / therfore they neuer vse theyr vn­derstandyng so parfyte & clere / as other men that be of purer cōplexyon / and theyr heedes lesse trobled wyth such superfluous humours. And also thou seest this ofte by experiēce / that many a man is apte to lerne and to vnderstande some scyens / and to perceyue the reasons therof quyckly & perfytly / and to lerne a nother scyens or connynge / he is nothynge apte but very dull / as somtyme yf two men of lyke age be / the one shalbe apte to lerne or to vnderstande the scyens of musyke and synging of dyscant / but to lerne the scyens of logyke or phylosophy he shall be but dull / and the other man shall be apte to lerne and also to vnderstande the scyens of logyke and phylosophye: but to lerne the scyens of musyke as dyscante [Page] or syngynge he shall be but dull. And some that be apte to lerne bothe lo­gyke phylosop [...] / and musyke as dyscant and syngynge / shall neuer yet well perceyue the methematycall scyens as geometrye / arithmetryk or as tronomye / so yt apperyth that it is the dysposycyon and complexyon of his bodye / that causeth y^• aptenes therof. Therfore though euery man be not lyke in dysposyciō of the body / yet euery mānes soule is lyke perfyte.

¶what knowlege mānys soule hath after it is separate from the body / aud what maner of beynge yt hath. Laput. xx.

¶Than yet I pray the let me know thy mynde in one questyon / what maner of knowlege mānes soule hathe after it is separate frō y^• body / & what maner of beyng it hath.

¶As touchyng that / the soule of man beyng in the body / as I haue shewed to the before doth vnderstande and knoweth it selfe / and it knoweth well y^t it hath that knowlege / & hath a beyng in the body whych body it vseth as his instrument and beynge in this materyall body / and by reason of ma­teryall thynges it knoweth thynges whyche be unmateryall / as thynges that be racyonal & incorporall / as vnyuersal thynges & kyndes of thinge. It knoweth al [...]o vyce and vertue / good and bad / ryght and wronge / & al other thynges racyonall / whyche be no corporall thynges / nor be not per­ceyued nor knowen by none of the. v. sences / nor by no instrument nor or gane of the sences / whych incorporall thynges be called racyonall thyng [...] as god / aūgell mānes soule / vyce / vertue and all such other / because they be knowen and perceyued only by reason: for though a corporall thynge whyche is good or bad / may be seen or felt or by any organe of the sences perceyued & knowen that it is such a corporall thyng: yet the goodnes or the badnes therof is knowen but by the reason / for a brute beste maye by his eye or other member see or fele a man / that is to say / to see or fele the body of a mā / but yet that brute beste can not by none of his sences know whether it be a good man or an euyll man / or whether he be vycyous or vertuous / nor know the qualytees nor y^• condycyōs of the man / but these propertees and qualitees be knowen only by reason / and the reason only doth iudge them whether they be good or bad.

¶Also the soule of man beynge in his naturall body doth knowe bothe thynges materyall and unmateryall / but yet the lesse that the body is mo ued & styred / and the more quyet that the body is / the more perfyte know lege that soule hath / for a man shall better studye and brynge to pas any hard and subtyll conclusyon when the body is quyete and at reste / than when it is moued and styred / or hath any dysease and vnquyetnes. A mā also when he is fastyng hath more fresshe and quyck wytte to studye or to lerne any scyens / arte or other conclusyon / then he hath when his body is replete with mete or drynke or wyth superfluous humours. Also the rea­sonable [Page] soule of man doth knowe and dyscusse what is vertue and what is vyce / and doth reproue & dyspyseth that thyng / which the sensuall appe tyte dothe approue / desyre and folowe. The honest men vertuous men / and holy men do dyspyse the sensuall appetytes and pleasures of the bo­dy and of the world / and somtyme wyllingly put them self to deth / where no brute beste wyll neuer couet nor desyre his owne destruccyon / and the cause therof is / for that y^t the soule doth knowe that it is ordeyned for to haue an other heynge thā y^• beynge / which it hath when it is ioyned with the body. And this knowlege that the soule hath when it is ioyned wyth the body it doth neuer lose / but yt hath it also whē it is separate from the body: for it is oft tyme seen also / y^t many a man beynge dede to all mēnes knowlege and perceyuing for y^• space of. x. or. xii. houres / and some for the space of a day and more / hath after that reuyued agayne / whych durynge that whyle (as the comen terme is) hathe leyne in a traunce / and after he hath ben then so reuyued hath told many wōderfull thynges that he hath seen beyng so in a traūce as dede / whych is an euydent proue that manne soule hath an other beyng wythout the body / and hath knowlege and vn derstandyng after that it is separate from the body. Than syth the soule of man vseth his properte of vnderstanding mych better and more ꝑfytly without y^• body / as I haue proued to the / when the body is lest moued & styred / and when it is most quyet / & when the soule doth medell lest wyth the body: it foloweth therfore consequently that it hathe most knowlege when it is clerely separate from y^• body. And forther syth that the soule of man beyng ioyned with the body doth knowe that there is a god that go uerneth all / and hath some knowlege what is good and what is bad / and also hathe some knowlege what is ryght and what is wrong / and that the perfyte perfeccyon as I haue proued to the / is when it is separate from y^• body / than after such separacyon / that soule must haue a more knowlege of god / and a more knowlege what is good and what is bad / and a more knowlege what is ryght & what is wronge / and a more knowlege in eue ry other cause and thyng / than it had when it was ioyned wyth this cor­ruptyble body.

¶That cōclusion foloweth ryght well / but yet I pray the syth the soule of man hath suche knowlege as thou sayest / yet than I wold knowe what maner of beynge the soule hath after it is sepa rate frome the body / and where doth that soule remayne or become.

¶As touchynge the beyng of the soule / as I haue shewed the / the soule is but a spyrituall substaunce / and hath his beynge in no natu­rall place.

¶why what callest thou a naturall place.

¶I call a naturall place as y^e phylosophers haue defyned yt / that is thus. A place is the vtter and extreme terme or parte & holowe superfycyes of a body cōteynyng a nother body within it.

¶why what callest thou a super [...]ves?

¶A superfycyes is that which hath but lēgth and brede & no maner of thyckenes / for yf it haue length brede & thycknes [Page] than it is a body / so that euery thynge that I see / whych is the obiecte of my syght and whervppon my syght doth rest / not consyderyng the thyck nes is called a superfycyes / so that the vtter parte of euery bodely thyng that I do see is called the superfycyes / because I do see the length & brede therof / and not the thycknes therof / thā as I sayde before / as touchyng y^• dyffinycyon of a naturall place / it is but the vtter and extreme terme or part & y^• holow superfycyes of a body conteynyng a nother body / whyche is wythin it / as by example a tonne is called by the comen peple the place of the wyne / because yt conteyneth the wyne within it / and so that holow superfycies of the tonne is the very naturall place of the wyne. And than forther to thy questyon I saye / that the soule hath his beynge in no natu rall place / because it is but a spyrytuall substaunce and no corporall sub­staunce nor body. And suche a naturall place doth-conteyne within it al­waye a corporall substaunce and a bodely thynge / and therfore the soule can neuer be cōteyned nor rest in no natural place / for though that euery thyng which is in any such natural place hath a beyng / yet euery thyng y^• hath beynge is not in a naturall place / therfore the soule of man hath h [...]s beynge in no naturall place / but is there where it dothe please god to ly­myte it to be / whych no mannes wyt nor capacyte lyuynge in yerth is a­ble to cōprehende. But by the iustyce of god / as I shewed the before / yf it haue deserued in this worlde to haue a ioyfull beynge / yt shall haue a ioyfull beynge perpetuall / and yf it haue deseruyd to haue a myserable & a sorowfull beyng / it shall haue a miserable & a sorowfull beyng ꝑpetuall / so that the soule of man is euer a thynge perpetuall / and hath an infinyte beyng.

¶Now thy solucyons be so m [...]lous and also so rea sonable that they please me well / and thou hast fully satysfyed my mynde in all my questyons and demaundes / that I must nedys consente & agre by very reason that the soule of man is immortall & shall neuer dye / how be it I meruell myche where thou hast lerned and had all thys connynge knowlege of all these thynges / whych thou hast declared vnto me: for I here say that in thy contrey there is but a lytell lernynge or study of phy­losophy. And I here say that the comen people there shall not be suffered to study any maner of subtyll s [...]s or arte / nor that ye haue no maner of places ordeyned by your heddys & gouernours / where the people shall re sorte to gyder for the lernynge therof / nor no wayes vsed that chyldren & yonge men dysposed to lernynge / shall haue any exhibycyon or fyndyng or helpe or fortherans therto / as we se in Chrystendome to haue dyuers places of studyes & vnyuersytees / where such as be dysposed to lerne may resort & haue good exhybicion & helpe to the same.

¶As touchyng that mater I assure the / the lernyng that I haue gotten / hath not ben all in myne owne countrey / for in my youth I had good parentes & frendes that for the loue they bare to me / and because they wolde I shuld vse the fete of marchaundyse amonge chrystenmen (because that great lucre co­meth [Page] therby) dyd putte me forth to the intente I shuld lerne some other straunge languages / by whose helpe and meanes I was in dyuers cyties and vnyuersytees in crystendome longe tyme abydyng and suggernyng where I lerned parte of my phylosophye and of other scyens.

¶ Than I meruell mych the lesse / and I thanke the with all my herte for this that I haue now lerned of the / wherin as I sayd / thou hast meruey­lously pleased me and satysfyed my mynde.

¶ I am very glad yf I haue done to the any pleasure. Therfore syth y^t thy mynde is somwhat satysfyed: I purpose now to departe from the / for a season somwhat to be occupyed about myne owne be synes.

¶ Nay I pray the tary yet a lytell whyle for my mynde is not yet fully sa tysfyed in other thynges.

¶ I am cōtent yet for thy pleasure to tarye wyth the styll for a sea son & therfore I praye the nowe shewe me forther thy mynde / & saye on what thou wylt.

¶ That the soule doth suffer and noth the body / and that by the iustyce of god there muste be a purgatory / because that somtyme man dyeth wythout makynge full satysfaccyon. Cap. i.

¶ As touchynge the meuelous existens of god / and the immortalyte of mannes soule / thou hast made to me so many merueylous reasons / y^• I muste nedys affyrme bothe thy pryncyples / that is to saye / that there is one god which gouerneth all conserueth all / and regardeth all / and also that the soule of man is immortall and shall neuer dye / but that yt shall re ceyue ioy or sorow in a nother world after y^t it is sepa rate from this corruptyble body. But yet me thynketh thou hast made a great dygressyon from the mater that we fyrst began / whych was y^t there is a purgatorye / where the soule of man after this mortall lyfe shalbe pu nysshed for suche offences done here in yerth / wherfore he made not here full satysfaccion / and so to be puryfyed before that yt come to the place of ioy.

¶ Nay I haue made not dygressyon from the mater / but I haue made a preparacyon to the mater / for the reasons whyche I haue shewed to the here before / and the conclusyons that I haue proued tou­chyng the meruelous exystens of god / & y^t immortalyte of mannes soule / be but the antecedens of the argumentes / whyche I purpose to make in prouyng that there is a purgatory.

¶ Than I praye the go breuely to the mater and let vs spende no tyme in vayne / but yet fyrst I pray the tell me one thynge / whether is it the soule of man alone that suf fereth the payne and sorowe / or whether is it the body of man alone that, suffereth payne and sorowe / or bothe to geder.

¶ It is the soule that sussereth alway payne & sorowe and not the bodye / for there is nothyng that can suffer payne or pleasure but that thyng / whiche at y^• lest hath sensytyue soule and lyfe / for a stone / a tre / nor other thynge / whyche haue no sensytyue lyfe can suffer nother payne nor pleasure / but yet some tyme that soule doth suffer payne beyngewyth the body / as when the bo­dy is perturbed and let from the naturall cours of his conseruacyon / as when y^• body is to mych hote or to mych cold / or to mych drye / or to mych moyst / or hath other impedyment which l [...]teth the naturall cours of his conseruacyon / than that soule suffereth payne beynge wyth the bodye.

¶ That standeth as me semeth wyth good reason / therfore I pray the procede to the mater.

¶ wyth ryght good wyll / & ther­fore I pray the now take hede. Thou remēbrest well that I haue prouyd vnto the in our second dyaloge and dysputacyon / that god is of hym self [Page] ryghteous and iust / and executyth euermore good and indyfferēt iustyce to cuery one of his creatures / and doth rewarde and punysh euery crea­ture accordynge to his desert. And that man is the only creature / whom he hath created here lyuynge vpon yerth / to do hym honour and seruyce / and that no nother creature here in erth doth seruyce and honour to god but only man / as I haue prouyd vnto the here before in our seconde dya loge and dysputacyon. And because that many a man here in yerth doth not honour nor serue god as he ought to do / but is neglygent therin and br [...]keth the commaundementes of god / & is dysobe dyent vnto god / and is not therfore suffyc [...]ētly punysshed in this worlde but dyeth before such punyshment or satisfaccion here vpon yerth by hym made / it must nedes therfore folowe that god of hys ryghteousnes must cause that man to be purged & puryfyed in a nother place to make satysfaccyon for those offen ces / before that he shalbe able to perceyue the eternall ioy / or to be party­ner of the goodnes of god / for the whych he was created and made. And so by the iustyce of god there must nedys be a purgatorye.

¶ An obieccyon / because repentaunce is the onely thynge / that clerely wassheth & puttyth away [...]ll synne done by man / and that god of his iustyce muste than dys­charge hym therof / therfore it nedeth thā no nother purgatory. Laput. ii.

¶ That reason me thynketh taketh but small holde / for thou knowest well and all clarkes here to agre / y^t repentaūce is the very only thynge that wasshyth & puttyth clerely a way all synne done by man agayns god: and that repentaunce is onely that thynge that god wold haue to be made and done for the satysfacciō of the synne / for which repentaunce so made and hadde / god of his mercyfull goodnes doth dys charge acquyte and pardon the man for that synne and offence so done / all though that man neuer toke nor suffred any other penaunce or payne therfore here vpon yerthe / as by example yf that I owe to the an L. [...]. of trew det / and yf y^t I humbly desyre the to forgyue me my det / thā yf thou of thy gentylnes onely for that loue that thou knoweth that I bere vnto the wylt dyscharge and pardon to me that det / and make a clere relese vn to me therof. I am thā clerely dyscharged of that det nor am neuer boūd by order of no lawe nor iustyce to make any other paymēt or satysfaccyō to the therfore. So lyke wyse whē god of his goodnes forgyueth me myn offence and synne for the repentaunce that I haue taken therfore / I am thā clerely releasyd and dyschargyd of that offence and synne / and ought neuer to haue other punyshmēt or to make other satysfaccyon therfore / and so than it shall not stande wyth any cōuenyent reason / y^t there shuld be any purgatory / or place of punishmēt for that offence and synne which is pardoned and released / but that after such pardō and release made by [Page] god to me for myne offence and synne / that god of his goodnesse shulde rewarde me / and so to make me partyner of the eternall ioy in heuen / for the whyche I was create & made. And on the other syde yf I were neuer repentaunt for my offence / but dyed unpenytent / than god of hi [...] iusty [...] muste gyue me eternall punyshment therfore in hell / and therfore to put any purgarye / yt shulde seme by the ryght [...]ousnes of god to be but in v [...]yne.

¶ The solucyon yf god shuld be compelled to forgyue the synne immedyatly after repētaunce / he shuld be restreyned of his syberte / and from the exe [...]ucyon of his iustyce. Laput. iii.

¶ Thy answere methy [...]beth is not suffycyent / for in the case whych thou ha [...] put / yf thou desyre my forgyuenes of thy. L. [...]. yet yt it is at my lyberte and of my gentylnes / whether I wyll wyll for­gyue the y^e hole. L. [...]. or elles parte therof. And yf I thynke in my mynde that the forgynenes of the hole. L. li. is to great a rewarde to the for any louc or kyndnes that thou haste. she wed vnto me / or ellys yf I th [...]nke that thy loue and kyndnes shewed to me is a suffyey [...]nt recompence for that L. [...]. but yet per aduenture I thynke that it is not a suffy [...]nt satye [...]cyon and recompence for the losse of tyme and damages / hurte and hynderaunce that I haue had for the none payment of the. L. [...]. wh [...]che peraduenture shuld haue ben payd to me longe tyme before: than y [...] I of my gentilnes do forgrue the the hole L. li. and yet for that gentylnes y^t I she we to the (because it is at my lyberte / whether I wyll forgyue the or no) I wyll that thou shuld do me some other seruyce / and take som pa [...]n or [...] for me by the space of two or [...] daees. Than thou canst not say / but than I do to the no [...] / but shew to the gentylnes and great metcy. So lyke wyse whan thou takest repentauce and ask [...]st mercy of god for thy synnc: no man ought to be so folysh to thynke that god shuld be restrayned and cōpelled / but that he is at his lyberte alwaye to execute hi [...] [...]ustyce or mercy at his pleasure / and that euermore it is at hys liberte whether he wyll forgyue or no. For yf god shulde be compelled to do the one or the other / than god shuld haue no noble beynge / but a beynge and a lyfe in a maner in boundage and seruytude. But god must nedys haue the most noblest lyfe and most pleasaunt lyfe as I haue proued before to the in our seconde dyaloge / than god muste euermore be at his lyberte to execute hys iustice or mercy at his pleasure. And than yf that god vpō the repentaūce wyll forgyue the / & yet yf he thynke that y^t repentaunce which thou hast taken for thy synne / is not suffycyent satysfaceyon therfore and than yf thou dyc before any other satysfaccyon made / thā god of necessite yf he, [...] [...]xecute his iustice / must nede (cause y^e to be punished in a nother [Page] place / to make a full satysfaccyon for thyne offence / but yet in that case yf he wyll execute hys mercy / he may than at hys pleasure forgyue the all thy hole offence and synne / wythout any other satysfaccyon to be suffred or done by the therfore. But yet yf god in that case shuld thynke that thy repentaunce here in yerth were no full satisfaccyon for thy synne / than yf god shuld be so restrayned / y^• he shulde not ordeyne a place of purgacyon for thy soule / where it shuld for a season remayne and haue punyshment to make a full satysfaccyon for thyn offence and synne: than thou woldest exclude god both from his lyberte and from the execucyon of his iustyce. Therfore yt foloweth by all conuenyent reason / that there muste nedys be a purgatory / where mēnes soule shalbe purged / or ellis they that shuld holde that opynyō that there is no suche purgatory / shulde offer to god a great wronge / and shulde exclude goddys power / and put hym both [...] frō hys lyberte and execucyon of hys iustyce.

¶ An obi [...]yon because man is ordeyned to haue an infy nyte beynge / therfore after his deth he must haue infynyte ioy or infynyte payne / and so no payne in purgatory which hath an ende. Caput. iiii.

¶ Though one shuld holde that opynyon that there is no purgatory / yet he shulde therby nother mynysh y^• power of god nother restrayne his lyberte / nother exclude the iustice of god / for man is made and ordeyned by god to haue a beynge infynyte / and that there is but two thynges ordeyned for mannes soule / which is ioy or sorow. And syth the soule of man after that it is separate from this corruptyble body must nedys haue an infynyte beynge / as thou hast proucd in thy seconde dyaloge / which must be than infynyte sorowe or infynyte ioy / and thā as sone as it is separate from the corruptyble body / god must than of his iu­styce iudge that soule other to the place where is infynyte ioy / or to that place where is infinyte sorw / accordynge as it hath deserued. So thā yt shulde se [...]e in vayne to put any purgatory / where the soule shulde haue any sorowe y^t shuld haue an ende / or to put any other place of ioye / where the soule shuld haue ioy / whyche ioy shulde haue an ende.

¶ The solucyon as there be degrees in synne / as some synne is more and some lesse: so there be degrees in repentaūce / as some may be more and some lesse: and also degrees of pardon & forgy uenes / therfore mā for lak of sufficiēt repentaunce muste be purged. Laput. v.

¶ To satysfye thy mynde in that poynt thou must consy der that god of his goodnes hathe create the worlde and all thynge therin conteyned / in a conuenyent order of degree. And thus / of all the kynde of thynges that euer god made / some be more and some lesse / some be small and some smaller. As of corporall thynges some be harde / some more harde / and some be softe and some be more softe / some be hote & some be more hote / and some be colde and some be more cold / lyke wyse of thynges incorporall some be great and some be greater. As of vertue / some is good and some better and of vyce some is euyll & some is worse how sayst thou thynkest not thou that this pryncyple / is reasonable and trew.

¶ I thynke yt is trewe that thou sayst.

¶ Than thus is not some syn & offence that a man cōmytteth somtyme more and somtyme lesse.

¶ I thynke so.

¶ And doth not euery offence deserue punyshment.

¶ yes.

¶ Than is there no degrees in punyshment / as well as there is degrees in synne & offence / so that some punyshment / is more and some is lesse / and is there not also degrees in repentaunce / and some repentaunce is great & some greater: and also degrees in forgyuenes & pardone / as some forgyuenes and pardone great and some greater.

¶ what than.

¶ Thā ought not euery offence & synne be punysshed by y^e iustyce of god in order and degree accordyng as it is / so y^t yf y^e offence & synne be great / it ought to haue a great punyshment: and yf it be small it ought to haue smal punyshment.

¶ Iuste.

¶ Than I say / whā that a man here in yerth hath cōmytted a great synne and offence / and taken repen­taūce wherby the synne is forgyuen / and yet hath not takē such sufficient repentaunce therfore / nor had any suffycyent punyshment / whych shulde make a full payment and satisfaccyō for that synne / and dyeth before any cōdygne or full satysfaccion made / god must nedys than of his ryghteous nes ordeyne a place of purgatory / where hys soule shall haue a forther pu nyshment to make a condygne and full satysfaccyō for that synne / and so to be purged and puryfyed before yt shall be able & worthy to be admyt­ted to receyue the eternall ioy in heuen. As by example / yf a man cōmyt a treason agaynste his prynce / wherfore he ought by order of the lawe to lese his goodes / and to haue imprysonment / and also to be put to detche and when he is conuycted there vppon / than because he seeyth he can not auoyde from the punyshment of the lawe / he is repentaunt and sory for his offence and prayeth hys prynce of forgyuenes / yet this repentaunce & sorowe that he taketh for his offence [...] can neuer be so great / but that yet this prynce by iustyce may take his good / and inpryson hys body / and af ter that put hym to dethe for the sayde offence by order of his lawes / & do hym iustyce. And so at his pleasure execute y^e extremyte of hys law / wyth out doyng any wronge to hym. But yet this prynce may yf he wyl by his mercy pardon his lyfe / & take hys goodes & impryson his body for a tyme [Page] and season / or as longe as he wyll at hys pleasure / and accordyng to the degre and qualyte of the same offence / tyll he haue made a full satysfac­cyon to hys prynce for that treasō done to hym / but yet yf y^• prynce shuld punyshe euery offender to thexstremyte of deth wythoute any mercy: it shuld seme a thynge so wnyng to cruelte / and also clerely agayns y^• pre­rogatyue of hys mercyfull power and auctoryte. And also yf a prynce in suche case shulde forgyue euery suche offender for suche a great offence / whyche hath taken but a small repentaunce and soro we therfore / it shuld bothe be an example to all suche offenders / and to gyue thē and all other comfort and boldnes to do lyke offences / whyche were a thynge / y^t shulde [...] to the subuersyon of his lawe / and derogacion of iustyee. Therfore yf such a prynce wold be reputed for a dyscret prynce / & a mercyfull prince he must somtyme forgyue the hole offence / and somtyme execute iustyce accordyng to hys lawes / and also somtyme pardone parte of the punysh­ment condigne for the offence / and gyue but a temporall pun [...]shment for a tyme and season accordynge to the degre and qualyte of the o [...]fence / & of the repentaunce. And so lyke wyse whan that a man hath commytted a synne & an offence / and taketh some repentaunce therfore / but not suffy cyent / and than dyeth: thā god of hys goodnes by y^• order of his iustyce & mercy / muste somtyme pardone that offence from the eternall deth / and yet gyue hym some punyshment / which shuld not be to the extremyte / as to condem [...]ne hys soule to eternall sorowe and payne / but to haue some [...] for a tyme and season to puryfye & to purge the soule of that offence / accordynge to degree and qualyte of the offence / for as I sayde before / as there is degeees in repentaunce / as some is more and some is [...] / [...]o god of h [...]s iustyce must vse degrees in forgyuenes and in pardon: so that though he forgyue the eternall payne and sorowe / whych is cōdy­gne for the great offence and synne whych the man dyd cōmyt: yet it ston deth wyth the great dyscreat wysdom of god to punysh the soule for that offence for a season to puryfye and purge it that yt may be able to be ad­mytted to come to the eternall ioy / for the which he was made and create For yf that men cōmyttynge dyuers synnes or offences agayns god / in dyuers orders and degrees / as some more & some lesse / and dyuers of thē take repentaunce dyuersly / some more / and some lesse / and than yf god shulde not vse dyuers degrees of forgyuenes and pardon / but punysshe euery of them eternally therfore / yt shuld sown than to the subuersyon of hys owne law [...] / and derogacyon of hys iustyce / and also agayns the pre­rogatyfe yf hys mercyfull power and authoryte. Therfore it must nedys be agreed by all reason / that there must be a purgatorye / where the soule of man muste be puryfyed and purged for a season to make full satysfac­cyon for suche offences and synnes / for the whyche the man made not suf fycyent fatysfaccyon here in yerth / and toke not suffycyent repentaunce therfore.

¶ An obieccyon / that because there be degrees in heuen and hell of ioye and payne / that it is nedeles for god to putte any purgatory / for he maye exe­cute hys full and indysferent ius [...]yce in one of those two places. Laput. vi.

¶ Thou hast made to me a meruelous reasō herein / but yet me thynketh though that god by the meruelous order of his c [...]e acion / hath create euery thyng in order and degrees / as some great and some greater / so of offence and syn / some is great & some is greater and of punyshment therfore some to be great / and some greater / of me­rytoryous dedes some greate some greater / and of repentaunce some great and some greater / and of forgyuenes and pardon some great and some greater: yet that proueth not that by the dyscrete wysedome and iustyce of god / that there must nedys be a purgatory / for god may by the order of good iustyce punysh euery offence done by man / in order and ac cordynge to hys degrees / and rewarde euery merytoryous acte in order and degree as they ought to be / some more and some lesse / though there be no purgatorye but onely heuen and hell / for lyke wyse as thou saydest [...]rewhyle / as there is orders and degrees of euery thynge here in yerthe / so I suppose and doute not but there is degrees bothe in heuen and hell / as some soule in heuen shall haue a great ioy / and some shall haue a grea ter ioy / and yet bothe these ioyes to be infynyte / and also in hell some sou le there to haue a great punyshment and some a greater / and yet bothe these punyshmentes to be infynyte. So that god by his iustyce maye pu­nysh euery soule in hell / and rewarde euery soule in heuen in conuenyent order and degree accordynge to theyr desertes: and yet all those punysh­mentes and rewardes to be infynyte / and so euery thynge in hys order and degre. Therfore it shulde seme nedeles for god than to put or to or­deyne any purgatory.

¶ The solucyon / that as the appell whych hath a vegetatyue soule / and as the beest whyche hathe a sensytyue soule / maye be purged after that they be seuer [...]d from theyre naturall growyng and lyfe / of such tokens and spottes whych be a deformyte to them / so the soule intellcctyue muste be purged of those tokens and spottes of synne / whyche was a deformyte to yt. Laput. vii.

¶ That is a very sore obieccyon / that thou hast now put and aledged. But yet not wythstandynge / yf thou wylte pacyently here me / I dout not but I shall gyue the a good suffycyent solucyō [Page] therto and to satilfye thy mynde therin Therfore I praye the take good hede to thys that I shall now shewe to the / I trust it is not out of thy re membraūce that I shewed the / but late that there be. iii. kyndys of soules One is a soule vegetatiue / whiche is in euery plante / tree / grasse / herbe / and frute. Another is a soule sensytiue whyche is in euery brute sen suall best / as well horse shepe and such other as go & crepe vpon the yerth as in the byrdes that fle in the eyre / and fyshe whyche swym in the water whych vse and occupy theyre. v. sences / that is to sey / tastyng / smellyng / heryng / seyng / & touchyng. And the thyrde soule is y^e soule intellectiue whych is ī man / which is nothig elles but y^e lyuely vnderstādyng / wher­by man knowith the good from the euell / dyscussynge the thyng by argu­mentes and reasons / for the one parte & for the other / tyll at the laste he therby fyndith out the truthe / and so therby knowith which is good and which is euyll.

¶ All that I am content to graūte.

¶ Syth thys thyng is now well by the perceyued / now will I procede to the solucyon of thyne obieccyon. But fyrste I wyll shewe the an example of thyngys hauynge soule vegetatiue as an apple whyche hath but soule vegetatiue yf such an apple growyng on the tree be hurt with som great stroke / & therby in some parte somwhat rotten & peryshed / & if that apple immedyatly after be pulled frome the tree / now that apple can neuer len ger growe: and then yf thou woldeste kepe that same apple to the intent to serue the at thy table at some grete dyner & feaste that thou woldest af terwarde make to thy frendys & louers / this appell shall not be able than to do to the no good seruyce / because the lenger thou kepeste it / it wyll be wors & worse / and by reason of that stroke it wyll wax more rotten / and at the laste wax all to nought and not able to be eten: and also if thou lay that appell amonge other apples / it wyll infecte all thos appels / whyche lye nygh it / and make them rotten & nought. But yet yf such an appell ha uynge such a stroke growynge vpon the tree / be suffered styll to growe & not pulled of the tree / such an apple oftymes wyll naturally preserue and hele it selfe agayne / and the radycall naturall humour of that appell wyll increase whyle it is growynge / and expulse those humours whyche were corrupte by reason of the sayd stroke / and so make that appell a hole and a sownde appell / able to be kepte to do thy seruyce after at thy table / whē thou shalt make thy dyner and feast to thy frēdes and louers. But yet yf thou take an appell from that tree / whych is a sownde appell but yet it is not fully rype / because there remayneth i it such a sowre watery humour which maketh yt not pleasaunt to be eten / yet yf thou laye that appell in fayre strawe in some howse where the temperate eyer may come to it / thā that eyer wyll puryfye & purge that appell frome that sowre humour and vapour out the tartnes and sowernes of that humour / & so make it me­lowe & pleasaūt to be eten. So lyke wyse now I may say of a man whych hathe soule intellectyue / yf he be infecte or corrupted withe the stroke of [Page] doynge some great mortall synne and offence agayns god / and than the soule immedyatly pulled & separate frō the body by naturall dethe wyth­out repētaunce / thā the soule of that man shall neuer be able to be recey­ued of god / & do hym seruice in heuē / because it hath such a mortall woūd wherby it is infecte & putryfyed not worthy to be admytted to accōpany wyth y^e clene pure soules in heuē. And yet y^t man whyle his soule was ioy nyd w^t y^• corruptyble body myght haue takē repētaūce which myght haue restored hym agayne to helthe and to vertue. But after the naturall deth that man can take no such repentaunce / wherby he shuld be helyd of that mortall synnc and offence / than god of his iustice must cler [...]ly expulse his soule from the eternall ioy in heuen / because it is putryfyed & corrupted. But yet yf a man haue commytted suche a great mortall synne & offence to god / and hath taken repentaunce / wherby that mortall stroke & woūd is heled before his deth / & before his soule is separate & pulled fro y^t body: but yet that mā is not fully purged therof / or [...]lle not clene of other small offences / nor redy nor rype to do pure & clene seruyce to god in heuē / but that there remayneth in hym some tokens & spottes of synne and offence god of his iustyce may not then condempne his soule to eternall punysh­ment / nor immedyatly to rec [...]yue that soule to the blysse ofheuē / to ioy & to cōpany wyth those gloryfyed & pure soules in heuen / tyll those tokens and spottes of synne be clere wasshed awaye and purged / and he made re dy & [...] to do to god pure and clene seruyce in heuen. Therfore than by conuenyent iustyce of god / there inuste nedys be a place of purgacyon / where his soule must be purged and made clene of those tokens & spottes of synne / or that it be able to be receyued to the eternal ioy in heuen. And also a lyke resemblaunce I may make of thynges whych haue soule sensy tyue / as yf thou haue a swyne which is infected with pox or other syknes or an ox that is infected with any syknes / which swyne or ox yf they shuld be than slayne / were not good nor holsome for mānys mete / but the flesh putryfyed corupte / and yet by medycyn and good kepyng that swyne or oxe may be heled / and than whyle those [...] be lyuynge / nature shall ex pulse those infectuos humours / & brynge those bestes agayne to helthe & make them so wnde and theyr flesh good and holsome for mannys mete. But yet yf those bestes whyche haue ven infecte with such corrupt syknes haue taken medycyne / and that corrupt syknes therby expelled / & euer in cresynge to more helth and the felsh holsome ynoughe to be eten for man [...]ys mete. But yet the flesh is so bare and lene / that it is not pleasaunt to ete as other flesh is. Or cllys yf such bestys haue taken some dysease by ex cessyue colde or hete / & the flesh not putryfyed nor corrupte / but bare and lene / and therfore not pleasaunt to be eten for mannys mete: yet yf those best vs be kylled / yet thou mayst make the flesshe of those bestys / though it be neuer so lene by sethynge or rostynge it wyth butter or fat larde to be good mannes mete / and pleasaūt to be eten able to serue the at thy dyner [Page] or feast for thy frendes and louers. So in the same maner it is / whā that a man is infecte wyth a great mortall synne which he hath commytted a­gayns god. And yf his soule were than separate from his body / yet then hys soule ought not to be receyued of god in to heuen / nor to do seruyce there vnto god because it is putryfyed and corrupted with y^t foule mor­tall synne / but yf that mā had taken the medecin of full repētaunce in his lyfe / that medecyn wold haue restored hym agayne to his soule helth and vertue. But yet yf he haue taken some repentaunce for that synne and of fence and not suffycient / & not had suffycyent tyme to make suffycyent sa tysfaccyon therfore: yet by the takynge of that medecyn of repentaunce / that syn is expelled and gon / and the soule of that s [...]kenes and synne is clerely hole: but yet the tokēs and spottys of that synne whiche is a defor myt [...] to the soule do styll remanyn in that soule / tyll y^t soule haue a tyme to be wasshed and purged from those tokēs and spottys to make yt pure and dene of that deformyte.

¶ An obieccyon / that the soule vnpurged maye do some meane and lowe seruyce to god in h [...]uē / though it be not the hyest and best seruyc [...] /so that it nedeth not to be purged. Caput. viii.

¶ yet me thynketh that proueth not y^• of necessyte there must be a purgatory / to purge & to wasshe a way clene those spottes and tokens whych is but a deformyte to the soule / but cōsyderynge that by that medecyne of repentaunce / that sekenes of the soule is therby put awaye and expelled / and the soule so made hole agayne / all though that there be spottes and tokens remaynynge which is but a deformyte to the soule and no mortall sekenes / those tokens & spottes than nede not to be wasshed away / but yf they remayne styll yet they do no hurte / but y^t soule may do good and perfyte seruyce to god in heuē: for all though that god wyll not put such soules in the hyest and most purest place in heuen becau se they be not so pure as other soules be / but somwhat deformed whyche is but as an eye sore / yet he wyll not clerely expell thē out of heuē / but put them in some other low place in heuen. As by example / yf y^• a man which kepeth an honorable house and vseth to feaste great lordes and estates at his table / and prepareth fyne dyaper table clothys and napkyns / where wyth to serue them at his table at his dyners and feaste / yf ony of those table clothes or napkēs be defouled wyth dust fylth or other foule mater which is not swete / yet y^t man will not suffer those clothes to be occupyed at his table / tyll they be wasshed and made clene / and the fylth so clerely expelled / that they may be swete and clene & worthy to serue hym at his table. But yet yf they haue ben so defouled wyth some foule fylth / wher by they be stayned that though they be wasshed neuer so clene / yet some spot and token wyll remayne of that staynynge / so that though they be [Page] pure clene and swete inough to do seruyce at his table / yet y^• spottes and tokens of the steynynge whych remayne be than a great deformyte & [...]ye sore: yet this mā yf he be wyse wyll not caste away those clothes / but wyll that they shall do hym seruyce in some other place and offyce of his house as in his buttry or ewry or his chāber / where they shal do to him as good seruyce / as though they were not stayned nor had no such spottes nor to­kens of deformyte to the eye. And lyke resemblance also. I may make of a prynce / whych must retayne in hys house to be hys houshold seruaūtes such men as he cā chuse in hys reame which be clene mē & hole mē of body some to be in hys pryue chāber / some in hys hall / and some in hys kychyn and some in other places of hys house / yf any such seruantes / whych thys prynce hath chosen to be in hys house / haue had any great syknes wherof he is by medecyne throughly helyd / and yet there remaynyth some defor­mite in his face or other parte of his body [...] / as that his skyn of hys face is parched and shronke by brennyge of fyre / or elles bleryed / or hys nose rot ted awaye and so his face vtterly deformed / or ellis any other member of his body deformed / and yet the man is clere hole of all syknes and strong and able to do good seruyce to his prince in diuerse romes and offyces in his house / all though it be not conuenyent for the honor of thys prynce to hauc thys deformed person to be in hys chāber of estate or in hys hall / yet this person so deformed & beyng hole may serue thys prynce in hys kychē there to be his scollyon / or in some other offyce to bere water / wode / or to clense gutters / or other vyle place in this pricis house / & so in this prynce house to haue a ioyfull and mery lyfe / wherewyth he wylbe meruelously well content / all though he neuer be admitted to do seruyce in his chāber nor hall. So lyke wyse in heuen god hath ordeyned for them that be the moste pure and clene soules / the moost pure and clene places / where they shall haue moost hyest ioy / and for the other meane soules a meane place of ioye. And for those soules that haue ben infected wyth some mortall synne / and heled therof by the medecyne of repentaunce / & yet the spottes and tokens of that synne do styll appere and remayne in the soule / which is but as an eye sore or a deformyte to the soule / yet because that mortall sekenes by the medecyn of repentaunce is clerely expelled and gone / & de­stroyed / god may not than of his iustyce cast that soule away out of heuē vnto eternall punyshmēt in hell / but wyll suffer that soule to lyue and to ioy with hym in heuen in some low and meane place in heuen: all though that he wyll not suffer thys soule to come to the hyest places / where moost ioy is in heuen / because it is not cōuenyent that thys soule shuld possede the hyest ioyes in heuen / because that it is not worthy to be receyued and admytted therto / for that that yt is somwhat deformed and not worthy to come to so hyghe a place and rome: but yet in the lowe plac [...]s & romys in heuen / this soule not withstandynge it be somwhat deformed / may do to god there some seruyce and pleasure / and yet there haue a ioyous lyfe / [Page] wherewyth thys soule wyll be ryght well contentyd. And therfore syth y^• god by iustyce and equyte may ordeyne thys soule a conuenyent place in heuen / accordyng as it is worthy and hath deserued: it were than a thyng frustrate and in vayne for god to ordeyne any place of purgatory / where that soule shuld be purged for a season / and after that to be restored and receyued in to heuen / because that god may rewarde that soule in heuen accordyng to hys deseruynge / and so nedelesse to ordeyne for it any place of purgacyon.

¶ The solucyon that nothynge vnpurged and vn­pure may remayne and abyde in heuen. Caput. ix.

¶ That obieccion and symylytude which thou hast made me thynketh is nothyng to purpose / for thou must cōsyder that god in whom is all goodnesse / iustyce / wysdome / vertue and perfeccyon in hys meruelous workys of creacyon of thynges hathe create and orde­red euery thynge in so good and perfyte an order / that can not be amen­ded. And hath ordeyned some places of ioy / and some places of punysh­ment cōuenient for euery creature / which doth deserue other y^• one or the other: and that he hath ordeyned heuen to be the place of felycyte / where is all ioy and pleasure wythout payne or dysease / & that thys place where we & other bestes lyue here vpō yerth / is y^• place myxed wyth ioy & payne & y^t all creatures lyuynge here somtyme suffer ioye and somtyme payne. And the low place whyche we call hell / is y^• place of eternall punyshment and payne wythout any ioy or pleasure: and that the place of heuē where his pleasure is to be eternally gloryfyed wyth the company of his aūgels and holy sayntes / is a place of eternall ioy / and by all conuenyent reason worthy to be so clene / so pure / so fayre / so pleasaunt / so full of ioy and felycyte / that there can be no place more pure / more clere / more pleasaunt nor of more ioye / nor of more pleasure / but that place muste be so clene of na­ture / that it must expell all maner of impuryte & vnclēnes / nor suffer any thynge therin / that is of any maner of vnclēnes or euyll / or other thynge vnpleasaunt. For as ye see by experyence as the eyer / whych of yt selfe is myche more pure and clene than the element of the yerth / yf there be any corrupt stynkynge water or other humoure vpon yerth / that water or humoure by the hete of the sonne vapored vp in to the hye regyone of the eyer / is there so puryfyed that when yt descendyth it is wythout any cor­rupcyō stynke or salt taste / but fresh / swete & clere / that yt can neuer be purer / so that the hye region of the elemēt of the pure eyer wyll suffer no water nor other humour to abyde there / whych is not clene and pure. And lyke wyse we may beholde thys pure regyon ethereall / where the sonne & y^• other starres rēne in theyr speres we see them so lyghtsom / so pure and clene / that it is vnpossyble any corporall thyng to be clener or more pure. [Page] Than syth that god by hys wonderfull power great wysdome and good nesse hath created those visible thynge / which appere to vs of such puryte and clennes that no fylthy nor foule thyng nor other thynge vnpure can remayne in them or nyghe them / yt semeth than that by all conuenyence of reason yt must nedys folowe that that gloryous place of heuen / whych is a place more hygher and excellent than those other places / which be the regyons elementall and regyons ethereall / and where his mageste is glo fyed / and eternally honoured by his aūgels and sayntes / must be clene & pure fayre / and aboue all other places / and that there can be no thynge suffred to be there / but that whych is all clene and pure wythout any ma ner spotte or token of vnclennes / so y^t it foloweth that no soule can be suf fered to be there y^t shulde haue any spotte or token of synne in yt / or any maner of deformyte whyche shulde be in any wyse vnpleasaunt. For all though that there be places in heuē some pure and clene / and some more pure & some more clene. And that there be ioyes / as som great ioy / & som greatter ioye: yet there can be no places there / wherof one shuld be pure and a nother foule / nor wherof one shulde be swete and a nother shuld be stynkynge / nor no lyfe wherof one shulde be a ioyfull lyfe / and a nother a paynfull lyfe / nor that no soule can be there / wherof one shulde be a pure and clene soule / and a nother vnpure and vnclene / nor y^t one soule shulde be fayre pleasaūt and goodly to beholde / and a nother to be foule and de­formed and vglye / nor y^t one soule there shuld suffer ioy / and a nother to suffer sorow. So now it foloweth that when y^t a man hath commytted a mortall synne and after taken repentaunce / and dyeth by the whych he is heled of that foule infyrmyte: but yet the spottys and tokens therof do re mayne / for lack of full satysfaccyon / god of his iustyce may not condēpne hys soule to eternall payne in hell for that offence / whych is purged & put away / and the soule therof clerely discharged and made hole: and yet god by his iustyce nor by hys dyscrete wysdome & goodnes ought not imme­diatly to receyue that soule in to that clene and most pure place in heuen to accompany wyth those pure aūgelles and sayntes that be there in that place / where there can be no thyng but that whych is all puryfyed & clene vntyll such tyme / that y^t soule be clensed and puryfyed of those tokēs and spottes of synne / whych remayne in that soule / which tokēs and spottes is euer a great deformyte to y^• soule as longe as they do therin remayne / Therfore by all cōuenyent reason it must nedys folowe / that besyde that gloryous and ioyfull place of heuen / and also besyde that myserable & so­rowfull place of hell / there muste nedys be a thyrde place of purgacyon / where the soule must be puryfyed and made clene of suche spottys and to kens of synne / whych remayne in it / before that yt shalbe able to be recey­ued in to that gloryous place in heuen / in whyche place there can be no­thynge suffered to be / but that whyche is all pure and clene wythout any tokens or spottes of synne or vnclennes.

¶ An obieccyon / that yf there shuld be any place of pu [...] gacyon / than that place shuld be here in yerth / or ellys yf there be any other place / where is that place of purgatory. Caput x.

¶ This is a meruelous sore & hye reason that thou haste made / but yet me thynketh / though that besyde heuen and hell ther shuld be a thyrde place of purgatyon / yt shuld seme conuenyēt that that place shulde be here in yerth / and that man whych hath so offended / whom god wolde haue to be purged therfore / and after that to be recey­ued and admytted to ioye wy [...]h hym in heuen / may be most conuenyent ly purged therof here in yerth / and whyle his soule is ioyned with his bo dy / because that the soule offendeth beyng with the body / therfore it were most conuenient that that soule shuld be purged and punysshed with the body. And also because that god hath ordeyned heuen to be a place of in­fynyte ioye / & hell to be a place of infynyte payne / and yerth to be a place [...]yxte somtyme of ioye / and somtyme of payne / whyche neuer endureth but for a tyme that shall haue an ende. Therfore it is most conuenyent y^• the place of purgatorye shulde be here in yerth / because it is the place or­deyned for payne whyche shall haue an ende. And also that purgatorye & punyshment here in yerth shuld be a great good example to all other mē here lyuynge / to put them in fere to do any lyke offence / and shulde cause many men the rather to absteyne from the doynge and commyttynge of any such lyke offence and synne.

¶ The solucyon / that yf god shuld be compelled to make purgatory here in yerth / that than god / y^t is the hye iudge shulde be restrayned from his lyberte and auctoryte more than any other yerthly iudge / and also that it is a folysh questyon to aske where purgatory is. Caput xi.

¶ That sayenge me semeth is not to be alowed / for thy fyrst reason / proued not only that there shulde be no purgatory but only here in yerth / but that reason proueth as well that there shuld be no ther heuen nor hell but only here in yerth. For yf a man haue lyued so vet tuously in yerth / wherby he ought to be saued and go to the ioyes of he­uē / because he dyd neuer merytoryous acte / but only when his soule was ioyned here with the body / then he shuld neuer be rewarded therfore but only here in yerth whyle his soule was ioyned wyth the bodye. And also euery synue whyche a man cōmytteth / is done whyle the soule is ioyned wyth the body / ergo than he shulde neuer haue any punyshment therfore but only here in yerth whyle the soule is ioyned wyth the body / & so that [Page] fyrste reason that thou hast made shulde proue that there is nother heuen nor hell prepared for man but here in yerth / whych is clere contrary to all the grounde and pryncyples whych thou hast graūted to me before. And also where thou sayst that of cōuenyence that y^• yf there shulde be any pur gatory / the place shuld be no where elles but here in yerth whyle the soule is beynge wyth the body: me se [...]eth that therin thou woldest clerely take away the liberte prerogatyue and authorite of god / and bynde god to be in more bondage and seruytude than any temporall iudge / whyche hath power to gyue sentence here in yerth in any cyuyll or tēporall causys. For a iudge here in yerth / which by the order of the lawe may gyue sentence & iudgement vpon any traytour or felon / is not so bounde nor restrayned but that he may iudge hym to be put in execucion in what place that this iudge shall thynke conuenyent / and also in what daye and tyme that he wyll. Than god myche more by his prerogatyue and authoryte ought to haue lyberte to gyue his iudgemēt and sentence / y^t the punyshmēt whych is condygne for the synne and offence / whych a man here in yerth cōmyt­teth / shalbe had in such place where god hym selfe shall thynk moost cōue nyent / other in yerth or in some other place at his pleasure & lyberte / and in what tyme and season that he shall thynke conuenyent therfore.

¶ Than I demaunde of the yf purgatory be not here in yerth in what place shuld yt be?

¶ As to that I say that purgatory is / that that is ordeyned to purge mēnes soules / when they be separate from the body. And a soule whych is no corporall substaunce / but a spyrytuall doth occupye no place / no more than thy thought or mynde doth / whiche occupyeth no place. And as touchyng that questyon / where and in what place purgatory is / me thynketh it is great folyshnes to demaunde that questyon. For I may aske the agayne where is heuen / whether ouer thy hed as thou standest / or elles vnder thy fote / or ellys before thy face / or el­les behynd thy backe / or ellys vpon thy ryght hand or vpon thy left hand or elles yf I aske where is the place where the glorious trone of god is / or I aske y^• where is the hyest parte of hen [...] / & what thyng is aboue the hyest place or ꝑte of heuē / or yf I aske y^• / of what mater is the heuen made / or y^• fyrmament / or y^• sonne mone & sterres / or what doth cause thē to moue so meruelous swyftly / which go & moue about y^• yerth more thā C. M. myle in euery. xxiiii. howres / or yf I aske y^• what thyng god is & to what thyng is god lyke / or what thyng the deuyll is / or what thyng y^• deuyll is lyke / or to what thyng a soule or angell is lyke / or yf I shuld aske y^• how many myle it is to y^• fyrmament / or how far it is to the hyest parte of heuen. As for all those hygh questyons and many other that may be demaunded all the men in the worlde be not able to assoyle them / thou mayst se well that this lytell pryk the yerth / whych is no more in comparyson to the fyrma­ment / than a lytyll pese is in comparyson to a great town or castell: It is ꝑued by a good true & apparant cōclusyons of astronomye / y^t the sonne [Page] and many other of the starres in y^• fyrma [...]t / be euery of them mych byg­ger than the hole yerth. There is no man in the worlde able to ymagyne the greatnesse of the fyrmamēt / mych lesse is he able to ymagyn the great nesse of the heuen and of the hole world / which conteyneth all thyng with in it: for yf mā shuld be able to ymagyne or gyue a playne soluciō to these and all other such hyghe questyons / than man shulde haue knowlege as god. Thou mayst well by thy reason perceyue that god which hath made this lytyll pryk and spotte the yerth wyth so many creatures lyuyng ther in / hath not made all the other placys of the world besyde to be destytute and vacant of creatures. But yf I shulde aske the / what other creatures be there in euery other place of the worlde / thou arte not able to gyue me any solucyon therto. Therfore thoughe god haue gyuen to man here in yerth some lytyll vnderstandynge / reason and knowlege of some causys and thynges / yet he hath reserued the knowlege of all suche hygh causys and questyons to hym selfe. For though that man beyng in yerth here by his reason maye perceyue and knowe that there is a god that is the cause of all / and gouerneth all / yet he shall not be able to ymagyne nor knowe what thynge god is / nor to what thynge he is lyke / and all though man here in yerth by hys reason may perceyue that there is a heuē / where god of his iustyce shall rewarde the good soules wyth eternall ioy: yet he shall neuer be able to ymagyne nor to know by hys reason what maner ioy yt is / nor what thyng they shall do / nor what pastyme they shall haue And also all though that man here in yerth by hys reason is able to perceyue & know / that god by his iustyce hath ordeyned a purgatory / where that mā nys soule shalbe purged of hys synne after it is separate from the body / yet he shalbe neuer able whyle he is here / to perceyue nor to knowe where and in what place that purgatory is / nor what certayne / nor what kynde of payne they shall suffer and haue / nor how / nor in what maner that sou le is able to suffer that payne / but god hath reserued y^• knowlege of these thynges vnto hym selfe: therfore thou man what so euer thou arte / arte very folysh / that desyrest the knowlege of suche thynges whyle thou arte here in yerth / for thou nor all the men in yerth be not able to ymagyne a solucyon for these questyons. But yet this is vndouted / that god hath or deyned a place of ioye / and a place of payne / where euery mannes soule shall be rewarded accordyng to his desert / but where the place is or what ioy or what payne it shalbe / or in what maner or how / no man in y^• world can tell / but only god alone.

¶ Thā I am as far from the solu­cyon of my questyō as I was before.

¶ well than because thou art not yet fully satysfyed / I shall yet therin peraduenture ease thy mynde a nother way / yf thy wyt be able to ꝑceyue y^• reasons that I shall shewe the but the mater is somwhat hard / therfore as y^• latyn mē say / capiat qui ca pere potest / let hym perceyue the mater that can ꝑceyue yt / for euery man is not of lyke capacyte.

¶ Thā yet I pray the shewe yt me to see [Page] whether I can perceyue it or no.

¶ with ryght good wyll / ther fore I praye the now take good hede / thou must vnderstande fyrst / that there be two kyndes of thynges which haue beyng / y^• one is a reall thyng the other is a racyonall thyng. A reall thynge is that whych is perceyued by the organes & instrumentes of the. v. wyttys / as the thyng whych may be seen hard tasted / felt or smelled / be called reall thynges. But racyonall thynges be those whych be not perceyued by y^•. v. wyttys / but only be per ceyued by reason / and they be thynges incorporal / as loue / charyte / meke nes / abstynēs / pryde / malyce / slouth and suche other. Further thou must cōsyder that of places there be thre dyuersytees. One is a place contynen tyue / a nother is a place lymytatyue / and the thyrde is a place operatyue. A place contynentyue is that / wherin reall thynges as bodyes / images & figures be cōteyned / as y^• tonne wherin the wyne is conteyned / is y^• place contynentyue of the wyne. A place symytatyue is / where thynges racyo­nall and incorporall be lymyted to be / as the place lymytatyue for loue / is that thynge whych is loued / & that thynge whych is so loued / is y^• place lymytatyue for that loue / and there the loue is in hys place lymytatyue / whyche place lymytatyue of loue can not be euer certayne but mutable / & because loue may be at onys in dyuers thynges / therfore loue may be in dyuers places lymytatyue at one tyme. A place operatiue is y^• place wher the operacyon of the thynge is / as because we see that the meruelous [...]e racyon of god is the meruelous swyft mouynge of the heuēly speres and bodyes aboue / which do appere to vs / therfore we say that the place wher god is / is heuen: so that wher so euer the operacyō of god appereth / there is the place operatyue of god / and there god is. Therfore as touchynge thy questyon where purgatory is / I say to the yt is no place certayne con tynentyue / for that y^• a place contynētyue is that whych conteyneth with in yt thynges that be corporall. But because purgatory is a place by god lymyted and ordeyned / for the purgynge of soules / whych be thynges ra­cyonall and incorporall / therfore purgatory can be no place cōtynentyue but purgatory maye be a place lymytatyue / and also a place operatyue. For where so euer that god doth lymyt the soule of man after it is sepa­rate from the body to be purged / there is y^• place lymytatyue of the soule / and there is the purgatorye of that soule. For there can be no purgatory / but there where the soule is purged / and where so euer god doth lymyt y^• soule to be purged / there is y^• lymytatyue place of purgatory. Also where the vertuous operacyon of god is / and where hys vertuouse worke doth appere / there is the operatyue place of god / and there god hym selfe is in hys place operatyue: and therfore because the meruelous operacyon and worke of god appereth in euery place of the worlde: therfore god is in euery place and parte of the worlde accordynge as I haue proued to the here before in our fyrst dyaloge. And also because that purgatory where me [...]nys soules be purged is that / where god worketh hys vertuous ope­ration [Page] in execuciō of his iustyce: therfore that purgatory is the very place operatyue of god / whych is in no certayne place contynentyue / but there where pleaseth god / and there & in such tyme / or tymes / where & whē and how his pleasure is that it shall be. Therfore to thy questyon I say / y^• pur gatory is no place contynentyue of it selfe / because yt conteyneth no reall nor corporall thynges within it / because it is ordeyned only for purgyng of soules / whych be thynges racyonall and incorporall. Nor also purgato ry is within no place contynentyue / because it is no suche reall thynge of it selfe / that may be perceyued by any of our fyue senses and wyttes.

¶ An obieccyon because the mercy of god cā not be with out his iustyce / and remyssyon is incydent to repentaūce: therfore as sone as repentaunce is taken / god of his iu­styce must gyue remyssyon / and therfore there ought to be no purgatory. Caput xii.

¶ Thou arte so subtyll in thy solucyon / that I wote not well how to reply vnto the / but yet I pray the let me see howe thou canste satysfye my mynde in one poynte. Thou dydest proue to me but late in our fyrst dyaloge and dysputacyon / that two thynges of neces syte be belongynge and be incydent to the goodnes of god / that was iu­styce and mercy / and that the one can not be wythout the other.

¶ That is truthe

¶ And the very dyffynycyon of iustyce is thus: Iustice is a constant and a perpetuall wyll / gyuyng to euery thyng hys owne. And mercy is no more but the mynde of a pytefull affecte / and meryte is the execucyon of iustyce / and remyssyon is y^e execucyon of mer­cy: and meryte is alwaye incydent to iustyce / so that god by the order of iustice must gyue to euery creature his own meryte accordyng as it doth deserue to haue / that is to say for synne and offence to gyue punyshment of payne or sorowe / and for vertue to gyue rewarde of ioye or pleasure. And that as meryte is of necessyte incydent to the iustyce of god / so is re myssyon incydent to the mercy of god: so that god can not mynyster hys mercy to no creature without remyssyon. And euery synne that is cōmyt ted / by y^• iustyce of god it must haue punyshmēt / and by the mercy of god remyssyon. And as thou dydest graūt me ere whyle / y^• synne is alway put away expelled and destroyed by the only medecyne of repentaunce: and than as punyshment by the iustyce of god is incydent to the repentaunce which taketh a way y^e synne / so as god by y^• order of iustyce ought to gyue punyshment for the synne whyche remayneth / so lyke wyse he ought by y^• order of iustyce to gyue remissyon for that medecyn of repentaūce / which hath taken away the synne. And because the iustyce of god and the mercy of god be so correlatyue / that the one can not be wythout the other / than [Page] god can neuer mynyster his iustyce wyth hys mercy / excepte that he grue remissyon as sone as the repentaunce is taken. Therfore yt standeth not only with y^• mercy of god / but also w [...]th y^• iustice of god / y^• as sone as repē taunce is taken / that god must gyue remissyon / and than whan god hath remytted that synne / god hath than fully executed both hys iustyce & his mercy / but yf he shuld after that gyue a ferther punyshmēt for that synne so remytted other in purgatory or elles where / yt shuld folow then y^• god d [...]de not execute hys iustyce before / and so than the mercy of god and the iustyce of god cowde not be correlatyue / but that hys mercy myght be w^t ­out hys iustyce / whyche is cōtrary to that pryncyple that we bothe fyrste agreed / that hys iustyce & mercy can not be the one wythoute the other / therfore yt semeth there ought to be no purgatory.

¶ The solucyon / yf god shuld gyue full remyssyon for eue­ry synne wythout other satisfaccyon / than god shuld my [...]ster hys mercy wythout iustyce. And as a man may of­fende to god alone / and also to god & to hys neyghboure: therfore satysfaccyon must be made both to god & to hys neyghbour / or elles hys neyghbour is not restored to hys owne. Caput. xiii.

¶ Thou dost ymagyn so many subtyll obteccions in thys mater / that I can not well tell howe to satys [...]ye thy mynde / but yet thys reason that thou haste laste made / dothe make agayns the as me se­meth / for we bothe agree that the iustyce of god and the mercy of god be euermore correlatyue and concurrant to geder / and that god doth neuer punysh any synne / but that the pun [...]shment is lesse than yt doth deserue and therin he sheweth hys mercy. And also god dothe neuer rewarde no creature for any vertue / but that his rewarde is greater than he doth de­deserue to haue: and therin also god dothe execute hys mercy / and dothe gyue remyssyon: for his remyssiō is nothyng elles but a gyft of his grace and goodnes / but he neuer gyueth hys remyssyon but for a conuenyent cause / whyche is accordynge to hys iustyce / because hys iustyce and mer­cy must euermore go to geder / and therfore forgofen in your douch tōge is a very proper word for remyssyon / because it is a gyft for a cawse. But than to answere thyne obieccyon / I saye yf that god shulde gyue remys­syon for euery synne that is commytted / as sone as he hath taken repen­taunce therfore without any other satysfaccyon / or ferther punyshmēt to be had therfore / thā god shuld minyster his mercy without iustyce / for by his iustyce he must gyue to euery thing his owne / which owne is y^e thyng whych it deserueth to haue / so that yf the repentaunce / whych a man hath taken here for his synne be not suffycyent sorowe to counterpeyle y^e plea­sure whyche he toke in doynge that synne / god must by hys iustyce gyue hym a ferther punyshmēt / whyche must be to suffer payne or sorowe suffy [Page] cent to purge hym of y^• synne / or elles y^• remyssyon whych god doth gyue for the onely repentaunce of synne / shuld be an execucyon of his mercy / and lackynge execucyon of his iustyce whyche can not be / for as we haue bothe agreed / the mercy of god and the iustice of god be euer correlatyue and must nedys be alwaye concurrant to geder. And yet to satysfye thy mynde forther in this poynt / thou wylt graunt me that the iustice of god muste g [...]ue to euery creature his owne / and not to take awaye fro [...]e no creature that thynge whiche is his: as by example yf so be that I do bete thy seruaunte whiche is thyne apprentyse or reteyned seruaunt / and do [...] hym as cut of his hand / or hurt some other member of hym / wher by thou dost lese his seruyce / and also that this seruaunt therby is not a­bl [...] well dur [...]ng his lyfe to get his lyuynge / yf so be that thou do forgyue and release to me that offence that I haue done to the for hurtyng of thy [...] wherby thou haste loste his seruyce: yet not withstandynge thy [...]uenes & thy release made to me / yet I am bounde to make a nother [...] to thy seruaunt for the hurte that I haue done to hym / which is y^• cause of the hynderaūce of his lyuyng. But yet yf I do the a trespace so y^• no man is hurted by y^t trespace / but onely thou thy selfe / in that case yf thou forgyue me that trespace / I am neuer bounde to make other sa­tisfacciō to no nother man for y^t trespace done only to the. So say I lyke wyse a man maye cōmytte here in erth dyuers synnes / some agayns god alone / and some both agayns god and his neyghbour / as when a man is negligēt to serue god / or proud dysdeynous / and vseth slouth or gloteny & yet hurteth not his neyghbour. Also a man may do some synne / whych is bothe agayns god and yet so hurteth his neyghbour / as whan I take myne neyghbours good wrongfully / or hurte his body. In that case yf I take repentaunce for that synne so done by me agayns god & my neygh­bour / though god pardone me for that offence / whrche I haue cōmytted both agayns god and also my neyghbour: yet god by his iustyce may not clerely release and discharge me without recompence & satysfaccion made to my neyghbour therfore / for iustice must gyue to euery man his owne / ergo than that wronge done to my neyghbour / or that thynge by wrōge take in from my neyghbour / muste be restored or some recompence made therfore / but yf that repentaūce which I haue takē for that synne done to god and my neyghbour / shuld be a clere dyscharge to me without any sa­tysfacciō made / than my neyghbour in that case shuld not haue his own / and so iustyce not mynystred to hym: wherfore in that case thoughe god forgyue me / yet I am boūde to make restituciō to my neyghbour.

¶ Than I put cause I haue no goodes lest nor other thynge / wherwith all to make restytucion or satysfaccyon to my neyghbour / but y^t I d [...]e be fore any suche satisfaccion made / or I put case I haue ynough to make sa tyssaccion to my neyghbour. But when I am repentaunt therfore & aske forgyuenes of god / and yet I am not in wyll to make satysfacciō to myn [Page] neyghbour / what shall be thā done now to me by y^• iustice of god.

¶ In that laste case whiche thou hast put / where thou art not willinge to make satysfaccion to thy neyghbour in that case it appereth thou art not repentaunte / for as a payment or redelyuere of the goodes is a satisfac­cyon for the goodes wrongefully taken / so repentaunce is a satisfaccyon in the mynde & wyll / for the synne which thou dedest: for the synne is euer done with thy wyll / & than the repentaunce for thy synne to put the synne away must be a cōtrary wyll / for as thou haddest a wyllwrōgfully to take thy neyghbours goodes / so in the repentaunce thou moste haue a wyll to restore thē / whych is a good mynd & wyl contrary to y^• other euyll mynde and wyll whych thou haddest in the wrōgfull takyng of thē: so I say it is impossyble for the to haue repētaūce / excepte thou haue a wyll to restore & to make satysfaccion of the thyng wrongfully taken. So then as I sayd to the before / syth that god by hys iustyce can not graunt the hys mercy & forgyuenes for the synne except thou be repentaunt / it foloweth thā that thou canst neuer be forgyuen of god / excepte thou haue a wyll to make restytucion and satysfaccyon for these wronges done by the to thy neygh bour. But to consyder forther in the other case whyche thou dydest put / yf thou be repentaunt and askest mercy of god and wyllynge to make sa­tysfaccyon / and hast not wherwyth all / yet than there is a satysfaccyon be hynde which thou oughtest to do to thy neyghbour / and than yf thou dye & because thou canst not make a satysfaccyon to hym in yerth / by the cōue nyent iustyce of god thou must make a satysfaccyon to hym in a nother place / whyche must nedys be in purgatory by some punyshment whyche thou must suffer therfore.

¶ why what is my neyghbour the better for that punyshment that I haue in purgatorye / or what restytu­cyon or satysfaccyon hath he therby.

¶ That punyshment whyche thou shalt haue in purgatory therfore / shall be to the releasynge of other paynes and punyshmentes that thy neyghbour ought to haue for other offencys whych he hath done agayns god / or ellys yt shalbe to the augmē tynge of y^• [...]oy that he ought to haue for other merytoryous dedes / which he hath done for the loue of god: and this doth stande wyth conuenyent reason / for when thou dost an offence to thy neyghbour there is not only a wyll to do euyll / but there is also an [...]uyll acte / & though that [...]uyll wyll were dyscharged by an other contrary wyll / whiche was that other good wyll whych thou haddest in the tyme of thy repentaunce & cōtrycyō / yet y^t [...]uyll acte is not dyscharged tyll there be an other acte done y^t is cōtrary to y^t acte. And all this standeth with y^• iustyce of god / y^t in the forsayd case that thy neyghbour to whom the wronge was so done must be restored & satysfyed / because as I shewed the before / the iustyce of god is alwaye to gyue euery thynge his owne / and than yf thy neyghbour be not satysfyed & restored for that wronge done vnto hym / than he hath not yet his own / and therfore by the order of iustyce he ought to be restored.

¶An obi [...]ccyon / that when god forgyueth it nede no sa­tysfaccyon to thy neyghbour / because god is very owner of all / & thy neyghbonr hath no ꝓperte but as a seruaūt to god / as but to make [...] counte to god. Caput. xiiii.

¶That reason me thynketh maketh not agayns myn [...] opynyon / nor prouyth not that yf god haue ons forgyuen me / y^t I ought to make any forther satisfaccion / as I shall proue it to the by an euydent example which is this: I put case thou haue a seruaunt / whō thou doste put in trust to haue the vse and occupy [...]ge of thy goodes and marchaūdises / and gyuest hym auctoryte to make bargayns therof / and to change them and sell thē to thy vse / and to make aquitaunc [...]s & relesis in his name / and to take bondes made to hym to thy vse / and to make accounte thereof / yf thy seruaunte sell parte of thy ware / and take an ob­lygacyon for the payment of. xx. [...]. of money for the same / yf thou after warde knowynge of thys / for y^• loue which thou hast to the same dettour or [...]duenture for some other cause wylt make to hym a relesse & a clere acquitaunce of the same. xx. [...]. I suppose thou wylt not denye / but y^t thys dettour is clerely dyscharged for euer of this. xx [...]. nor is not bounde by any iustice to make any other satisfacciō / nother to thy seruaūt nor to no nother persone in y^• world / because thou art only the very owner therof & no nother person / and thy seruaunt had neuer but the occupacyon therof as to gyue to the an accompte therof. So I saye / because god is the very owner of all goodes & of all thynges / thou hast but the occupacion therof as to gyue to god but accompt therof: therfore yf god do release and for­gyue the / thou nedest neuer to make any other satysfaccyon to thy neygh bour nor to haue no nother punyshment therfore.

¶The solucion that god hath an absolute power and an ordynary power / and that by hys ordynary power he cā not dyscharge the yf thy repentaunce be not suffycyent. And also that thou canst not cōpelle god to forgyue the by his absolute power at thy pleasure. Caput. xv.

¶As touchyng y^• obi [...]cciō thou must cōsyder y^t god of hym self hath. [...]. powers. One is an absolute power / & an other is an ordina­ry power. The absolute power is y^t authoryte y^t god hathe ouer all thyng in the world / wherby y^t he may do with euery thyng his owne plea sure / because he is the very & y^• fyrst & y^• pryncypall cause of euery thyng / & by that power he may gyue to euery creature what pleaseth him / & also re myt & forgyue euery offēce done by any creature at his pleasure without any cause. But by his ordynarye power he doth euery thyng by order of iustyce and equyte / as to rewarde & to punysh euery creature accordyng [Page] to hys desert / but when he wyll execute and vse his absolute power / and when he wyll vse his ordynary power / yt is alway at his pleasure. But in the case whych thou hast put / when that thou dost an offence to god & al­so to thy neyghbour / as to take thy neyghbours goodes from him by vio lence and wronge / or to hurte hys bodye / and than yf thou aske god for­gyuenesse therfore / & art not wyllyng to make satysfaccyon to thy neygh bour / in that poynt thou art not repentaunte / becawse as I sarde to the here before / thou hast not a contrary wyll to that wyll / whyche thou had­dest when thou haddest a pleasure to do to thy neyghbour that wronge & hurt whyche thou dyddest to hym. And than yf god shuld clerely forgyue the wythout any satysfaccyon or restytucyō to thy neyghbour / than ther in god shulde not vse his ordynary power accordynge to hys iustyce / be­cause thy neyghbour is not restored to hys owne / whych was by wronge taken from hym: and also thou shuldest be remytted & forgyuen of god wythout repentaunce / whyche is also contrary to the ordynary power of goddes iustyce / so y^t yf god in that case shuld forgyue y^• without any wyll of satysfaccion to thy neyghbour / god shuld not vse hys ordynary power accordynge to hys iustyce / so I say in that case by the ordynary power of god / thou canste not be clerely forgyuen. But furthermore yf thou wylte say / that in that case god by his absolute power doth forgyue y^• / thā thou woldest [...]de god to execute his ab [...]olute power at thy pleasure / whych is contrary to the nature of the absolute power of god / for hys absolute power is to gyue and to remytte at his own onely pleasure without ony cause.

¶But than I put case that yf I be repentaūt and aske forgyuenes of god & do make satysfaccion to my neyghbour for y^t wrong that I dyd to hym / or elles yf I haue not where wyth to make to hym sa­tysfaccion / but a wyll to do satysfaccyon / and that I dye / yf than because of my repentaunce god by his ordynary power of his iustyce must forgy­ue me / because that repentaūce is that thyng only whych god wold haue to be done for the satysfaccyon of that synne / and yf that synne be clerely therby dyscharged / than [...]t were but vayne to put any purgatory / to put away or to wasshe away the synne / whych was so by god clerely dyschar­ged

¶yf thou thynke thy selfe by repentaunce to be clerely dys charged of that synne wythout ony other ponyshment to be had in pur­gatory therfore / yt semeth that there in thou art very folysh so to thynk / for yf thou shuldest be clerely dyschargyd / eyther thā yt shuld be by the or dynary power of god / or elles by y^• absolute power of god / but thou canst not iudge thy self / & be sure y^t thou art dyschargyd by the ordinary power of god / because that there is degrees in repentaunce / as some repentaūce is more and some is lesse. And than thou canst not tell how that god wyl accepte thy repentaunce / nor whether y^t he wyll iudge yt to be cōdygne & sufficyēt to wasshe away y^t synne or no / for yf it be but a small repentaūce so that the sorowe that thou takest in that repentaūce / do not cōterpeyse [Page] the pleasure / whyche thou haddest in doyng of that synne and the conty­nuāce therof / thā by hys ordynary power he may not clerely forgyue the [...] but must by the order of hys iustyce gyue the a further punyshmet in pur gatory / y^t that punyshmēt may be a full recōpence to conterpayse y^• plea sure / which thou haddest in doynge of that synne & cōtynuance of y^• [...]ame so that y^t payn & sorow sufferd afterwarde must be as great as y^• pleasure whyche thou haddest before. Therfore thou art a fole to thynke thy selfe clerely dischargyd by goddes ordinary power / because thou knowest not whether thy repentaūce be suffycyent or no. But yet further yf thou wylt say that in ca [...] where thy repentaunce is not suffycyent to wasshe awaye [...]erely and fully the synne / that yet god by hys absolute power doth for­gyue the: than as I sayd before / thou wylt compell god to execute his ab solute power at thy pleasure / & at such tyme as thou hast ony repentaūce though it be neuer so lytell a repentaunce / whyche as I sayd to the is con crary to the nature of his absolute power. And yet in that case thou wylt bynde god to be in a maner in bondage / & to haue lesse liberte & auctorite than prynces and kynges haue in thys world: for thou knowest well that a prynce or a kyng may by his power remitte & ꝑdone any traytour / mor derer [...]rer felon [...]in hys realme / though he haue deserued therfore to dye / [...] yet there is no such traytour / in [...]rderer nor felon / that can cōpell that prynce to pardone hym / al though that he aske hym forgyuenes / but that that p [...]ynce may execute hys ordynary power vpon hym / & at hys lyberte to put hym to deth by y^• order of hys lawes / or elles to ydone hym of deth [...]ue hym some other punyshmēt for hys offence / as prysonmēt or some other payne by hys dyscr [...]yō / so thy repentaūce may be such & so great y^t god by hys or [...]ynary power maye and wyll forgyue the clerely bothe the synne [...] y^• satysfacciō therfore / & it may be so small a repentaūce / that god wyl forgyue the y^• synne and not clerely expulse the out of his fauour / but yet wyll that thou shalt haue a forther punyshment to make the as pure and clere as thou wast before / and so than able to be receyued in to his f [...] uour / and to be pertyner of his glory / so these thynges cōsydered / it must folowe necessarely that there must nedes be a purgatory.

¶ A nother reason for a conclusyon of thys mater I shall shewe the (be­cause I can nat tary myche longer wyth the) yf thou or ony other shulde hold thys opynyon / chat god for a lytyll repentaūce had be thy for thyne offences and synnes / shulde so ꝑdone and forgyue the / so y^t thou shuldest not nede to make any other satysfaccyō or restitucyon to thy neyghbour whom thou haste so wronged / and after thy dethe thou shuldest haue no nother punyshment in purgatory therfore: and to beleue that there is no purgatory ordeyned therfore / thys thyng shuld put away y^• drede of god from the most parte of the people in the worlde / and gyue them boldnes to do and commytte offences and synnes / and yf the people shuld beleue that they neuer neded to make any satysfaccion / nor restytucion to theyr [Page] neyghbours for the wronges that they haue done to theyr neyghbours / and that suche a lyght repentaūce shuld be suffycyent for ony other satys faccyon to be made / yt shulde gyue to the people suche boldnes that they wolde neuer force nor care what wronges / e [...]ons / theftes / roberyes [...] nor morders that they dyd / and so in conclusyon shuld destroy all vertue and increase vyce and synne and also vtterly destroy the comen welthe & quiete lyuynge of the people.

¶ Thy reasons and solucyon to all my questyons and obieccions be so good that thou hast meruelous well satysfyed my mynde in euery thyng / & yt shuld seme a great meruel how thou shuldest come to so hye lernynge & knowlege / saue y^t I meruell mych the lesse / because I herde the say / that thou hast be brought vp some parte of thy youth in crystendome / and ben a student in dyuers [...]r­sytes in crystēdome / where thou saydest thou dydest ierne and rede [...]ych phylosophye: wherby as I sayd thou hastnow satysfyed my mynde right well / and that now I must nedys consente vnto the that there must ned [...] be a purgatory for y^• purgyng of mēnes soules / after that they be separat from the body / and also by the same last reason whych thou hast shewed / yt ꝓueth well that yt shuld be a great folyshnes for y^• people to beleue the contrary therof / that is to say / y^t there shuld be no purgatory / for y^t folysh beleue shuld be meruelous hurtfull to y^• peple / for fyrst as thou saydest it shuld bryng thē from the drede of god / whych drede of god is the begyn­nyng of all wysdom. And we know well y^t y^• fraylte of mākynde is such / y^• it is euermore more ꝓne & redy to vice thā to vertue: wherfore mā hath nede to haue both a brydel of law / which is to punysh vyce in this world / & also a brydell of y^• drede of god / whych is a drede to offende for y^• loue of god / and a drede to be punysshed in an other world for offence done here in thys transytory lyfe. But yf men shulde beleue that there is no purga tory / but that immediatly the soule of man for a lytell small repentaunce takē shuld go streyght to heuen: yt shulde as thou saydest / gyue thē suche a boldnes that many men wold lytell regarde what hurte or wrong they dyd to theyr neyghbours: and so shuld be the cause to brynge the peple to lyue to geder contynually in trouble / vexacyon / vnquietnesse of mynde & to the destruccion of theyr own comē welth in this world. It shuld also cause the vtter losse and dampnacion in hell of many thousand soules / be cause they wold euer trust / that yf they lyued neuer so vyciously / that yet they wolde or they dyed take some repentaunce / wherin peraduentur [...] many shuld be deceyued. For we se by experyence / that there be many pe ple in the worlde whyche dye sodeynly / some be sodeynly drowned / some sodeynly slayn [...] and some dye sodeynly of some other sekenes / & peraduē ture haue no tyme to remember god or thynke of any repentaunce / and than yf such people that so dye haue offended god and commytted some great mortall synne / for the whyche god by his iustyce must condempne hym to eternall dampnacyon in hell: thys boldnes of trust to take repen [Page] taunce or ther dye where they be deceyued for lacke of tyme / shuld ca [...] many thousandes of peple to be eternally dampned in hell. And an other thynge yet there is to be consydered / whych I haue gederd vpon thy re [...] sons & argumentes / that yf a man offende and commytte some small ve­nyall synne / for the whych god wyll that by hys iustyce he must haue som punyshment therfore / but yet not eternall dampnacyon / yf such a synnet dye sodenly / and before he haue had any tyme to take any repentaunce [...] hys soule as yt is prouyd by all thy forsayd argumētys & reasons / ought neyther immedyatly to come in to y^• gloryous place of heuen / because yt is somwhat defouled wyth synne: nor also ought not to go to hell to etet nall dampnacy on but by all good order of iustyce must go to a place to be purged & there to be made clene / that yt may be receyued after that in to the gloryous place of heuen. Therfore vpon these reasons whych thou hast shewed / & these premysses consydered / he shall be proued a very stark fole / that wyll beleue that there is no purgatory.

¶ I am very glad now that thy mynde is satysfyed in this mater / and therfore now be cause I haue a lytel besynes to do touchyng y^• fete of my marchaundyse / I wyll departe & byd the farewell.

¶ Now I thanke the wyth all [...]yn hart / and I shall loue the whyle I lyue / and wolde to god y^• thou were of our holy secte and crysten beleue / and so I wyll counsell the and requyre the to be.

¶ I thanke you for your good counsell / but as to that request I wyll not she we the my mynde at thys tyme / because I haue now no tyme nor space / how be yt I know well y^• Cryst of whom ye crysten men beleue / was a very holy mā & a good & hath taught you so many good lessons of vertue / y^t there can be no better / whyche I wyll ad uyse y^t to obs [...] & kepe. And a nother time ꝑaduēture I shal mete with the agayne / and shew to the my mynde / but now I praye y^• pardone me for I must nedys departe from the: therfore yet agayn I say now farewell.

¶ well then syth thou wylt ned [...] begone / I pray god gyue the grace y^t thou mayst do well / and to become one of our holy sect & beleue / & I pray god be thy gyde.

Amen